**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Aug 25 02:59:57 2008
Aug 25 03:08:27 <muthu> gm
Aug 25 03:09:27 <trigatch4> gm?
Aug 25 03:09:30 <trigatch4> good morning?
Aug 25 03:09:40 <trigatch4> its freakin 11pm here... i'm getting tired
Aug 25 03:09:41 <trigatch4> haha
Aug 25 03:11:04 <muthu> how's your forum going?
Aug 25 03:11:16 <muthu> now you need to think about bringing users
Aug 25 03:14:58 <trigatch4> yes
Aug 25 03:15:00 <trigatch4> you are correct
Aug 25 03:15:23 <trigatch4> nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd
Aug 25 03:15:28 <trigatch4> as they say
Aug 25 03:16:49 <muthu> right
Aug 25 03:20:55 <trigatch4> so any brilliant ideas?
Aug 25 03:21:33 <trigatch4> how about i bribe you to lure every existing developer into the depths of my forum ;0
Aug 25 03:23:11 <muthu> haha
Aug 25 03:23:15 <muthu> people hate me
Aug 25 03:23:26 <trigatch4> people hate you?
Aug 25 03:23:29 <trigatch4> why is that?
Aug 25 03:23:47 <muthu> lol, no idea
Aug 25 03:24:00 <trigatch4> who hates you?
Aug 25 03:24:09 <trigatch4> you've only been friendly and helpful/nice to me...
Aug 25 03:24:13 <muthu> they hate me in a good way
Aug 25 03:24:20 <muthu> atleast that's what i'm thinking ;)
Aug 25 03:24:22 <trigatch4> hahaha
Aug 25 03:24:25 <trigatch4> so they envy you?
Aug 25 03:24:38 <trigatch4> you're like the new york yankees of the android game
Aug 25 03:24:44 <muthu> plug your forums, in all android news sites
Aug 25 03:25:22 <muthu> and it wouldn't hurt to get a few google android developers to post
Aug 25 03:38:18 <trigatch4> muthu: if you can tell me where I could find Google Android Developer's to help post then i would have been on top of that a long time ago!
Aug 25 03:41:10 <muthu> trigatch4: mainly in this channel, and the developers forum
Aug 25 03:41:40 <trigatch4> i think the main problem is...
Aug 25 03:42:00 <trigatch4> well there are a lot of main problems tbh
Aug 25 03:42:22 <trigatch4> what are the chances i could recruit you
Aug 25 03:42:27 <trigatch4> as a developer ambassador
Aug 25 03:42:28 <trigatch4> ;)
Aug 25 03:51:05 <muthu> trigatch4: currently i'm working on a plan
Aug 25 03:51:14 <muthu> on a android product plan
Aug 25 03:51:22 <muthu> so that takes all my time
Aug 25 03:53:28 <muthu> http://mobeegal.in
Aug 25 03:53:33 <muthu> that's what i'm working on
Aug 25 03:54:00 <trigatch4> awesome
Aug 25 03:54:34 <muthu> what's your plan>
Aug 25 03:54:42 <muthu> you seem to be very android focused
Aug 25 03:54:43 <trigatch4> thats a helluva huge project you're undertaking
Aug 25 03:54:50 <trigatch4> my plan?
Aug 25 03:54:59 <muthu> yeah
Aug 25 03:55:02 <muthu> your goals etc.,
Aug 25 03:55:07 <muthu> are you working somewhere?
Aug 25 03:55:13 <trigatch4> to make androidforums.com the #1 community for people to discuss android...
Aug 25 03:55:18 <muthu> great
Aug 25 03:55:27 <muthu> is that parttime or fulltime?
Aug 25 03:55:30 <trigatch4> to make androidapplications.com the #1 site for people to find information about android applications
Aug 25 03:55:40 <trigatch4> and to make phandroid.com the #1 place for people to get android news
Aug 25 03:55:42 <trigatch4> ;)
Aug 25 03:55:50 <trigatch4> i do web development full time
Aug 25 03:55:55 <muthu> wonderful
Aug 25 03:55:58 <trigatch4> i dont have any advertising on any of my android sites yet
Aug 25 03:56:10 <muthu> why not?
Aug 25 03:56:12 <trigatch4> my goal is to first make them the best they can be and profit down the road
Aug 25 03:56:20 <muthu> sounds good
Aug 25 03:56:40 <muthu> i have only one goal now
Aug 25 03:56:56 <trigatch4> and its to make AndroidForums.com have a lot of developers talking... right?
Aug 25 03:56:58 <trigatch4> haha jk
Aug 25 03:57:04 <muthu> to build an android product quickly and make shit loads of money
Aug 25 03:57:13 <muthu> haha
Aug 25 03:57:15 <trigatch4> cheers to that!
Aug 25 03:57:20 <trigatch4> I hope you do it
Aug 25 03:57:32 <muthu> if not, i'll come back to androidforums ;)
Aug 25 03:58:01 <trigatch4> hahah
Aug 25 03:58:18 <trigatch4> well you'll need to be on androidforums to field questions and troubleshooting about your application
Aug 25 03:58:19 <trigatch4> hehe
Aug 25 03:58:25 <trigatch4> or will it be so perfect there will never be any questions
Aug 25 03:58:45 <muthu> trigatch4: why would a developer come here, instead of google forums?
Aug 25 03:58:52 <muthu> is something you need to solve
Aug 25 03:59:08 <trigatch4> you mean google groups?
Aug 25 03:59:15 <muthu> yes
Aug 25 03:59:16 <trigatch4> personally i hate google groups
Aug 25 03:59:26 <trigatch4> i find the layout and the whole thing to just be icky
Aug 25 03:59:39 <muthu> right, but that's where stuff gets answered
Aug 25 03:59:41 <trigatch4> can you even post pictures and all that jazz, post videos, within google groups post
Aug 25 03:59:55 <muthu> its pretty limited though
Aug 25 04:00:19 <trigatch4> yeah well.. thats why i originally only had Android Developers as a single forum because its hard for me to attract developers especially since im not a developer
Aug 25 04:00:24 <trigatch4> but you convinced me otherwise
Aug 25 04:00:26 <trigatch4> ;)
Aug 25 04:01:29 <muthu> that's your usp now
Aug 25 04:01:39 <muthu> have specific topics within developers
Aug 25 04:13:27 <trigatch4> what good is a topic if there is no information in it
Aug 25 04:13:40 <trigatch4> thats like having a dictionary... with no definitions
Aug 25 04:13:51 <trigatch4> "but we list all the words ever invented in alphabetical order!"
Aug 25 04:13:54 <trigatch4> haha
Aug 25 04:32:49 <jasta> hmm
Aug 25 04:33:28 <trigatch4> hmm what
Aug 25 04:33:46 <jasta> just announcing that i'm here :)
Aug 25 04:34:22 <trigatch4> haha, interesting method...
Aug 25 04:34:39 <jasta> i could beep occassionally, if you'd prefer.
Aug 25 04:34:49 <trigatch4> no thanks...
Aug 25 04:34:55 <trigatch4> can i assign a ringtone to you?
Aug 25 04:34:56 <muthu> *yawn*
Aug 25 04:35:11 <muthu> jasta: that's your trademark signature
Aug 25 04:35:40 <trigatch4> jasta: your turn to pummel and criticize my site
Aug 25 04:35:47 <trigatch4> http://androidforums.com
Aug 25 04:36:10 <trigatch4> trying to get it out there seeing as how android launch is rapidly approaching
Aug 25 04:36:22 <trigatch4> would appreciate any opinions/suggestions/insight
Aug 25 04:36:25 <trigatch4> :)
Aug 25 04:36:44 <jasta> i agree with muthu, actually.  it will be nearly impossible for you to provide value over google's official forum, where the google employed android engineers field questions
Aug 25 04:38:30 <trigatch4> nearly impossible... that hurts
Aug 25 04:38:32 <trigatch4> hehe
Aug 25 04:38:55 <trigatch4> i got at least one thing right... "pummel" was the proper categorization
Aug 25 04:39:14 <trigatch4> so let me ask you this...
Aug 25 04:39:22 <trigatch4> if google groups is so amazing...
Aug 25 04:39:27 <trigatch4> what is the point in this channel?
Aug 25 04:39:39 <trigatch4> or anddev which has done decently well?
Aug 25 04:39:58 <trigatch4> the main purpose of my forum was/is the end consumer... but i figured why not focus on developer's too
Aug 25 04:40:18 <umdk1d4_> gahhhhh
Aug 25 04:40:46 <umdk1d4_> SimpleAdapter doesnt Filter?
Aug 25 04:40:57 <umdk1d4_> probably because it doesnt know which Map<> field to filter against
Aug 25 04:42:18 <trigatch4> ^ my point
Aug 25 04:42:42 <umdk1d4_> trigatch4: the consumers will come eventually
Aug 25 04:42:51 <umdk1d4_> and there will be a flood of them
Aug 25 04:43:03 <trigatch4> yeah.. i hope so
Aug 25 04:43:14 <trigatch4> :)
Aug 25 04:43:29 <umdk1d4_> i get the feeling that the developer community is HUGE but silent
Aug 25 04:43:40 <muthu> anddev attracted users coz they were first kids on the block
Aug 25 04:43:40 <umdk1d4_> just look at the number of kernel downloads of 0.9 patches
Aug 25 04:43:55 <muthu> umdk1d4_: how many?
Aug 25 04:44:07 <trigatch4> muthu: it was more than just being first kid on the block
Aug 25 04:44:17 <trigatch4> he is a developer himself which helps huge amount
Aug 25 04:44:23 <muthu> agree
Aug 25 04:44:26 <trigatch4> provided tutorial, answered questions... which i can't do
Aug 25 04:44:44 <muthu> and he posts like 100 new apps every day ;)
Aug 25 04:44:59 <trigatch4> 100 new apps every day? haha what do you mean
Aug 25 04:45:12 <umdk1d4_> well he did throw a bunch of stuff out there
Aug 25 04:45:16 <umdk1d4_> not sure what hes been up to lately
Aug 25 04:45:30 <trigatch4> here is another question you guys can perhaps help me with...
Aug 25 04:45:43 <umdk1d4_> http://code.google.com/p/android/downloads/list  -->  almost 4k downloads in 6 days
Aug 25 04:45:44 <trigatch4> how would you go about accepting submissions of applications into an applications database
Aug 25 04:45:54 <trigatch4> verifying who owns the apps and all that jazz
Aug 25 04:45:59 <umdk1d4_> and thats just the linux patchsets
Aug 25 04:46:13 <trigatch4> 4k isn't all that many
Aug 25 04:46:23 <umdk1d4_> trigatch4: helloandroid.com has a good app database
Aug 25 04:46:49 <trigatch4> i bet a lot of the downloads were from idiots who read on tech crunch or something that there was a new SDK and tried to download it to see if it could work
Aug 25 04:46:54 <trigatch4> stuff like that
Aug 25 04:47:02 <swetland> wow
Aug 25 04:47:12 <swetland> I'm a bit surprised at how many people downloaded the kernel sources
Aug 25 04:47:56 <trigatch4> yeah... i'm in the process of creating an app database but want to put measures in place beforehand to make sure the apps are from who they say they are and i have proper contact info and all that jazz
Aug 25 04:47:57 <umdk1d4_> swetland: yea that downlod page is a bit hidden and out of the way
Aug 25 04:48:13 <umdk1d4_> trigatch4: dont hold your breath, but i would wait to see what this app store looks like
Aug 25 04:48:23 <umdk1d4_> and then invest your effort where it lacks
Aug 25 04:48:30 <swetland> no, I'm surprised at how many people downloaded 'em ^^
Aug 25 04:48:30 <trigatch4> eh... the app store will undeniably be huge
Aug 25 04:48:38 <trigatch4> but one thing google will not get into is application reviews
Aug 25 04:48:45 <umdk1d4_> or will they?  lol
Aug 25 04:48:51 <trigatch4> application support
Aug 25 04:49:01 <umdk1d4_> "user ratings" were thrown around in early discussions
Aug 25 04:49:02 <trigatch4> well... thats all opinion
Aug 25 04:49:24 <trigatch4> yeah
Aug 25 04:49:26 <trigatch4> perhaps you're right
Aug 25 04:49:38 <umdk1d4_> honestly its all speculation at this point
Aug 25 04:50:15 <trigatch4> tis true
Aug 25 04:50:33 <trigatch4> so do you all think this first phone will go as the HTC Dream or the T-Mobile G1
Aug 25 04:50:35 <trigatch4> thoughts on that?
Aug 25 04:58:34 <muthu> its always the carrier
Aug 25 04:58:43 <muthu> so it would be T-Mobile something
Aug 25 04:58:51 <trigatch4> always the carrier?
Aug 25 04:58:54 <umdk1d4_> AHA!  RemoteViews  might be a way of writing desktop widgets in the future
Aug 25 04:58:57 <trigatch4> you mean like the LG Dare on Verizon?
Aug 25 04:59:02 <trigatch4> or the LG Voyager on Verizon?
Aug 25 04:59:07 <muthu> right
Aug 25 04:59:10 <trigatch4> or the Samsung Omnia or HTC Touch Pro
Aug 25 04:59:15 <trigatch4> those are all manufacturer
Aug 25 04:59:17 <trigatch4> not carrier
Aug 25 04:59:39 <muthu> yeah, but the carrier will have the branding in the o/s
Aug 25 04:59:58 <umdk1d4_> imho g1 sucks as a name  :P
Aug 25 05:00:06 <trigatch4> i agree
Aug 25 05:00:16 <trigatch4> it makes sense as first google phone ever though "g1"
Aug 25 05:00:24 <trigatch4> HTC Dream just sounds sick though
Aug 25 05:00:28 <trigatch4> they need to jsut use that
Aug 25 05:00:34 <trigatch4> HTC Dream on T-Mobile
Aug 25 05:01:04 <muthu> appstores are interesting
Aug 25 05:01:30 <muthu> hope there's many of them
Aug 25 05:06:41 <muthu> trigatch4:
Aug 25 05:06:43 <muthu> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/83196/
Aug 25 05:06:52 <muthu> copy all these things as code snippets into your forum
Aug 25 05:07:02 <muthu> and search for those kind of url's in the android developers forum
Aug 25 05:11:28 <trigatch4> muthu: like this - http://www.androidforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14
Aug 25 05:12:32 <muthu> you can also copy the entire code block
Aug 25 05:12:46 <muthu> and provide some context
Aug 25 05:14:34 <muthu> ex: the above paste code, does picking a contact photo and saving it in a inputstream
Aug 25 05:15:37 <trigatch4> gotchya...
Aug 25 05:15:56 <trigatch4> unfortunately i can't decipher that's what its doing haha so i needed that editorial direction so to speak
Aug 25 05:16:14 <muthu> yeah, you need a developer
Aug 25 05:20:46 <trigatch4> alright developers, who feels like getting bribed?
Aug 25 05:20:47 <trigatch4> haha
Aug 25 07:34:44 <cutmasta> mornin
Aug 25 07:35:00 <Zohan> mornin
Aug 25 08:39:09 <tric> moin
Aug 25 09:55:17 <umdk1d4_> hmm
Aug 25 09:55:54 <umdk1d4_> i cant seem to drawText on a Canvas from SurfaceHolder.lockCanvas(dirty)
Aug 25 09:56:12 <umdk1d4_> unlessssss the coordinates of the canvas are relative to the dirty rect
Aug 25 09:56:15 * umdk1d4_ tries
Aug 25 09:56:46 <umdk1d4_> hmm nope, still not working
Aug 25 10:07:17 <umdk1d4_> aha figured it out
Aug 25 10:07:23 <umdk1d4_> another bug somewhere else  ;)
Aug 25 10:24:17 <umdk1d4_> DOH  SurfaceView  doesnt obey animations  :/
Aug 25 10:58:47 <umdk1d4_> :/ why is surfaceview being so slow for me
Aug 25 10:59:08 <umdk1d4_> im doing about 20 lockCanvas()'es, and my render time is about 300ms
Aug 25 10:59:19 <umdk1d4_> doing simple drawText() for each lock
Aug 25 10:59:46 <umdk1d4_> it might be the unlockCanvasAndPost() is slowing it down?
Aug 25 10:59:55 <umdk1d4_> if i unlockCanvas(), then how do i "post()" later?
Aug 25 11:01:06 <umdk1d4_> oh i guess i cant decide to post() later
Aug 25 11:03:16 <gambler> its so awesome when I could have wrote the library in the time I spent trying a 3rd party library working
Aug 25 11:16:25 <umdk1d4_> lol  :)
Aug 25 11:16:42 <Zohan> youre doing something wrong then
Aug 25 11:17:14 <umdk1d4_> but its worth it for contributing upstreaming bugfixes tho
Aug 25 11:25:22 <Zohan> bah, im really tired
Aug 25 11:25:27 <Zohan> need a blowjob and a nap
Aug 25 12:32:50 <muthu> ru
Aug 25 12:54:29 <Dougie187> good morning.
Aug 25 12:54:36 <muthu> ge
Aug 25 13:00:58 <Acsia> gm
Aug 25 13:04:24 <jasta> morning folks :)
Aug 25 13:04:36 <muthu> yo
Aug 25 13:05:23 <muthu> ebay on android would be cool
Aug 25 13:05:38 <Acsia> I would think ebay will come up with something in no time
Aug 25 13:05:46 <Acsia> when the phones are out obviously
Aug 25 13:05:48 <muthu> i wouldn't worry about it
Aug 25 13:06:10 <Acsia> how are you otherwise?
Aug 25 13:06:13 <muthu> something like ebay
Aug 25 13:06:18 <Acsia> long time no much talk
Aug 25 13:06:40 <Acsia> abay?
Aug 25 13:06:45 <muthu> yeah
Aug 25 13:07:06 <Acsia> could use an abbey as logo
Aug 25 13:07:13 <muthu> hehe
Aug 25 13:07:27 <muthu> but there's a big need
Aug 25 13:07:33 <muthu> for users to buy/sell quickly
Aug 25 13:07:44 <muthu> abay is the answer!
Aug 25 13:08:06 <Dougie187> Hows it going jasta?
Aug 25 13:08:36 <jasta> pretty good, prepping my instrumentation stuffs in kind of a tutorial form to post about
Aug 25 13:08:45 <Dougie187> nice
Aug 25 13:08:49 <jasta> also, i'm sick of waiting for those android maven guys to update.  i am patching it
Aug 25 13:11:01 <Dougie187> well good luck with that.
Aug 25 13:11:14 <Dougie187> im glad i don't have to be at work anymore. that means im allowed to stay in here.
Aug 25 13:11:14 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 25 13:12:43 <jasta> yakischloba: shit you're up early :)
Aug 25 13:13:21 <yakischloba> jasta: I don't like gambling with traffic etc my first day on the job
Aug 25 13:13:30 <muthu> yakischloba: good luck
Aug 25 13:13:32 <jasta> good call :)
Aug 25 13:13:55 <Dougie187> ohh you got a new job?
Aug 25 13:14:34 <yakischloba> don't have to be there for another 2.75 hours but I always give myself way more time than I need starting out
Aug 25 13:15:08 <yakischloba> I can't imagine how lame it would be, to be some poor guy who has his plan go wrong and ends up hours late on the first day or something
Aug 25 13:15:15 <yakischloba> muthu: thanks
Aug 25 13:15:19 <yakischloba> Dougie187: yeah at a data center
Aug 25 13:15:24 <Dougie187> nice.
Aug 25 13:15:26 <Dougie187> sounds like fun.
Aug 25 13:15:29 <yakischloba> jasta: shall I assume you haven't gone to bed yet?
Aug 25 13:15:31 <jasta> yakischloba: i was hours late my 2nd day on the job i have now.
Aug 25 13:15:43 <jasta> some asshole slashed my tires when i lived in the u district
Aug 25 13:15:48 <yakischloba> yikes
Aug 25 13:16:02 <jasta> yakischloba: no, i've slept.  becky and iwent to bed really early tho
Aug 25 13:16:03 <yakischloba> that sucks
Aug 25 13:16:51 <yakischloba> ahh nice. I had some trouble falling asleep, my heads a little fuzzy. I don't think I have too much technical information to absorb today though so that'll be alright
Aug 25 13:17:26 <jasta> yakischloba: if you can believe it, we went hiking yesterday :)
Aug 25 13:17:29 <muthu> the important thing is to show up
Aug 25 13:17:42 <muthu> the rest would be taken care of
Aug 25 13:18:29 <yakischloba> jasta: where at?
Aug 25 13:19:44 <jasta> we went to the ice caves by Granite Falls
Aug 25 13:20:04 <jasta> pooring down rain and freezing cold.  but it was lots of fun still
Aug 25 13:23:25 <yakischloba> jasta: cool, I don't think I've ever been there. I went to some ice caves at the south side of Mt. St. Helens a couple years ago though, that was interesting
Aug 25 13:24:00 <yakischloba> jasta: just some freezing cavern with ice everywhere a few feet below the surface, in the middle of summer lol
Aug 25 13:24:14 <jasta> yeah, it's a trippy deal :)
Aug 25 13:29:45 <Acsia> jasta whenever you publish your instrumentation article, I would be very much interested in reading it
Aug 25 13:29:55 <jasta> i'll be done pretty soon
Aug 25 13:29:55 <jasta> :)
Aug 25 13:30:09 <Acsia> I am currently working on content provider instrumentation
Aug 25 13:30:18 <Acsia> and have been following positron as well
Aug 25 13:30:26 <Acsia> the trunk is very interesting
Aug 25 13:30:43 <Acsia> it has a nano http server which could can access to launch/control your tests/input
Aug 25 13:30:57 <tric> hmm, nice.
Aug 25 13:30:58 <Acsia> replace(could, you)
Aug 25 13:31:17 <tric> does positron use instrumentation or does it use its own way to do?
Aug 25 13:31:25 <Acsia> instrumentation
Aug 25 13:31:35 <Acsia> it s a very well design app imo
Aug 25 13:31:41 <jasta> tric: positron, as i understand it, is basically just glue.
Aug 25 13:32:02 <Acsia> not well documented yet but you can take a look at client.java to get an idea
Aug 25 13:32:17 <Acsia> REST based
Aug 25 13:32:33 <Acsia> for instance /backup would backup your dbs
Aug 25 13:35:11 <Zohan> im working on a backup app for android
Aug 25 13:35:17 <Zohan> will backup all your data to my webserver
Aug 25 13:36:28 <jasta> lol
Aug 25 13:36:37 <jasta> how thoughtful of you :)
Aug 25 13:36:38 <Dougie187> can you specify a webserver?
Aug 25 13:36:45 <Dougie187> or is it just to yours?
Aug 25 13:37:24 <Zohan> you could specify one
Aug 25 13:37:29 <Dougie187> heh good.
Aug 25 13:37:37 <Zohan> but it should be running the php scripts and mysql db
Aug 25 13:37:54 <Zohan> but it wasnt meant for this
Aug 25 13:38:01 <Zohan> keep on using mine :)
Aug 25 13:41:33 <yakischloba> have a good day folks, cya
Aug 25 13:41:39 <jasta> good luck
Aug 25 13:41:44 <Zohan> cya yodaschlaubi
Aug 25 13:42:58 <trigatch4> goodmorning folks... or afternoon, evening, night, depending on where you are
Aug 25 13:57:28 <jasta> Acsia: http://devtcg.blogspot.com/2008/08/android-instrumentation-example.html
Aug 25 14:00:48 <tric> nice, thx jasta
Aug 25 14:09:58 <jasta> now to patch that damn masa plugin :P
Aug 25 14:20:27 <Acsia> cheers
Aug 25 14:31:56 <gambler> lets play a game ...what are your top 5 java dev and/or android tools
Aug 25 14:31:57 <gambler> ...sdk and eclim dont count
Aug 25 14:32:52 <Zohan> grep, cat, wc, mirc and winamp
Aug 25 14:33:51 <tric> hehe, vim make hg irssi firefox
Aug 25 14:34:46 <gambler> i suppose i deserve it
Aug 25 14:34:56 <Zohan> go on gambler
Aug 25 14:34:59 <Zohan> its your turn
Aug 25 14:36:03 <gambler> i havent found anything in the java world i really like
Aug 25 14:36:53 <gambler> trying to find some tools to make my life easier
Aug 25 14:37:13 <tric> tools for?
Aug 25 14:37:15 <Zohan> maybe gcc?
Aug 25 14:37:42 <tric> look at eclipse plugins.
Aug 25 14:37:43 <gambler> i been screwing around with logging frameworks for way too long today...
Aug 25 14:38:10 <tric> log4j?
Aug 25 14:38:37 <gambler> on someone's advice i coded all my stuff to slf4j which is an abstraction around log4j
Aug 25 14:39:37 <gambler> i been trying to get chainsaw working which appears to be like an old unmaintained version of ddms
Aug 25 14:39:45 <Zohan> i do not log. logging is bad. logging is traces. traces are bad.
Aug 25 14:40:05 <tric> hehe
Aug 25 14:40:21 <gambler> I have no clue about the whole logging thing...
Aug 25 14:40:26 <gambler> what i should be doing
Aug 25 14:41:09 <gambler> anyway im trying out its successor lumbermill now, which seemed to stop development in 2002
Aug 25 14:42:50 <gambler> my problem is I have no idea what the best java tools/practices are
Aug 25 14:43:24 <tric> use stuff that is still in development.
Aug 25 14:43:28 <gambler> and im a huge overoptimizer by nature. it takes alot of fight to stop myself from making my own versions of these tools or endlessly searching for something better
Aug 25 14:43:41 <gambler> tric: obviously, but i havent seen anything still in development
Aug 25 14:43:55 <gambler> tric, hence me asking for best of breed tool reccomendations
Aug 25 14:44:43 <muthu> build: maven
Aug 25 14:44:49 <tric> well, i still dont get, are you looking for frameworks or for tools while devloping? for the later look for eclipse and/or netbeans stuff.
Aug 25 14:45:07 <muthu> app.framework: seam
Aug 25 14:45:20 <trigatch4> could use guys provide links to all these "favorite tools for android development" stuff? want to plug them in my Tips & Tricks forum ;)
Aug 25 14:45:28 <gambler> tric: basically anything good.
Aug 25 14:45:50 <gambler> http:://gnu.org seems to be the main one at the moment
Aug 25 14:45:51 <muthu> trigatch4: any visitors?
Aug 25 14:46:21 <muthu> googlers:
Aug 25 14:46:31 <muthu> what's the best python learning site?
Aug 25 14:46:46 <gambler> there are some great python tutorials around
Aug 25 14:47:09 <trigatch4> muthu: there is a big difference between "visitors" and "active participants and contributors"
Aug 25 14:47:10 <muthu> give me one site
Aug 25 14:47:17 <trigatch4> i get lots of visitors... but they only lurk
Aug 25 14:47:21 <gambler> the only one I can think of offhand is diveintopython ...not sure if that one is good or just has a really memorable name
Aug 25 14:47:32 <muthu> ok.. diving in
Aug 25 14:53:35 <gambler> well lumbermill works ok
Aug 25 15:06:23 <gambler> but it sucks
Aug 25 15:09:42 <jasta> yawn
Aug 25 15:10:48 <jasta> trigatch4: do recognize that failure is a possibility.  your idea may just simply be unworkable...
Aug 25 15:11:43 <trigatch4> jasta: initially the "developer forum" was just 1 small subforum...
Aug 25 15:11:50 <trigatch4> the main goal is to attract consumers
Aug 25 15:11:56 <trigatch4> who want to talk about USING their phones
Aug 25 15:11:58 <trigatch4> and using android
Aug 25 15:12:04 <jasta> oh, well that should be easy to do
Aug 25 15:12:08 <trigatch4> yeah...
Aug 25 15:12:12 <trigatch4> i think it will work fine for that
Aug 25 15:12:20 <trigatch4> but i'd love to make it a resource for developers too
Aug 25 15:12:54 <trigatch4> especially because i want to start building relationships/resources so i can launch http://androidapplications.com as a really nice application review site
Aug 25 15:13:15 <trigatch4> Triple thread... news / community /  app reviews ;)
Aug 25 15:13:24 <jasta> i just wouldn't ever expect developers to give a shit ;)
Aug 25 15:13:34 <michaelnovakjr_> i agree with jasta
Aug 25 15:13:41 <jasta> competing with "official" channels for communication and content distribution is totally impossible :)
Aug 25 15:13:46 <trigatch4> hahaha
Aug 25 15:13:48 <trigatch4> great
Aug 25 15:13:56 <michaelnovakjr_> just build apps :)
Aug 25 15:14:07 <jasta> unless google fails us all so miserably that their app repository is unworkably bad
Aug 25 15:14:23 <jasta> in which case, some open source hackers should probably fill the gap anyway, not you :)
Aug 25 15:14:30 <trigatch4> muthu: where are you mister? he gave me the impression that I should expand the developer forums and make specific categories/areas so it was a better resource for developers
Aug 25 15:14:45 <michaelnovakjr_> don't listen to muthu
Aug 25 15:15:01 <michaelnovakjr_> he doesn't think like a developer :)\
Aug 25 15:15:30 <trigatch4> jasta: i disagree... there is always plenty of room for content coverage and app reviews falls into this category. the iPhone App Store exists but there are lots of great App Review sites that have gotten mainsream media exposure and are doing quite well
Aug 25 15:15:38 <jasta> michaelnovakjr_ is right.  muthu is just basically willing to try any number of random events in series until he becomes fabulously wealthy somehow.
Aug 25 15:15:47 <jasta> muthu reminds me of the underpants gnomes in southpark
Aug 25 15:15:49 <trigatch4> people want alternate opinions... not just to hear what the company organizing it all has to say
Aug 25 15:15:50 <jasta> step 1, collect underpants
Aug 25 15:15:51 <jasta> step 2, ???
Aug 25 15:15:53 <jasta> step 3, profit
Aug 25 15:16:14 <trigatch4> hhahaahha i haven't seen that southpark
Aug 25 15:16:20 <jasta> trigatch4: well, in the case of development, we definitely want to hear what google has to say :)
Aug 25 15:16:31 <muthu> step 2: sell it to vc's :P
Aug 25 15:16:31 <trigatch4> yeah
Aug 25 15:16:35 <michaelnovakjr_> they obviously have the upper hand
Aug 25 15:16:36 <trigatch4> i totally understand that
Aug 25 15:16:57 <jasta> trigatch4: also, you're just totally jumping the gun here.
Aug 25 15:17:08 <trigatch4> jumping the gun how?
Aug 25 15:17:10 <jasta> you need to wait until about 6 months after launch before you'll have content even worth looking at.
Aug 25 15:17:25 <trigatch4> thats where you are incredibly wrong in my opinion
Aug 25 15:17:39 <trigatch4> the first day an android phone comes out and people can't figure it out what doyou think they'll do?
Aug 25 15:17:47 <trigatch4> go to google and search for ways to make it work better
Aug 25 15:17:50 <michaelnovakjr_> call the ghostbusters
Aug 25 15:17:57 <jasta> trigatch4: if people can't "figure it out" on day 1, then we are in serious trouble man.
Aug 25 15:18:01 <trigatch4> so if you've already got a solution up, they'll start organizing around it
Aug 25 15:18:04 <jasta> because that means google failed the consumer badly.
Aug 25 15:18:11 <michaelnovakjr_> trigatch4: they are going to call the carriers
Aug 25 15:18:20 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 25 15:18:29 <trigatch4> there is a lot of "figuring out" besides just talking on your phone
Aug 25 15:18:30 <jasta> michaelnovakjr_ is also right.  users will expect support exlcusively from the carrier.
Aug 25 15:18:37 <trigatch4> i mean customizing your phone, finding the best apps, talking about apps, etc...
Aug 25 15:18:38 <Dougie187> thats assuming the first round is typical users getting phones though.
Aug 25 15:18:41 <jasta> which means t-mobile's forums will have the most useful information, probably.
Aug 25 15:18:44 <michaelnovakjr_> if something i bought doesn't work out of the box i'd call my carrier support
Aug 25 15:18:52 <Dougie187> which i don't think will completely happen.
Aug 25 15:18:53 <michaelnovakjr_> jasta, definitely
Aug 25 15:18:58 <trigatch4> eh... i have some experience in phone related forums and i think you're wrong
Aug 25 15:19:01 <muthu> androidforums is a great idea
Aug 25 15:19:02 <trigatch4> look at howard forums
Aug 25 15:19:05 <Dougie187> i would assume the first round would be devs. or geeky peoples.
Aug 25 15:19:08 <Dougie187> - the s.
Aug 25 15:19:10 <michaelnovakjr_> yea
Aug 25 15:19:23 <jasta> trigatch4: also like, who gives a shit?  i mean, what reason do you want to do this?
Aug 25 15:19:23 <trigatch4> i have a forum for the LG Dare which has really taken off
Aug 25 15:19:44 <trigatch4> the same reason anyone gives a shit
Aug 25 15:19:45 <muthu> i think androidforums will be a big hit
Aug 25 15:19:47 <trigatch4> about anything
Aug 25 15:19:57 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, why?
Aug 25 15:20:06 <jasta> trigatch4: uhm, collecting underpants you mean?
Aug 25 15:20:14 <muthu> because that's the first forums for end users
Aug 25 15:20:21 <trigatch4> i enjoy tech and gadgets
Aug 25 15:20:27 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, end users don't give a shit about forums
Aug 25 15:20:29 <trigatch4> and i make money from my enjoyment at the same time
Aug 25 15:20:41 <romainguy> trigatch4: if you want to do it, just do it, don't listen to jasta :)
Aug 25 15:20:44 <trigatch4> michaelnovakjr_ tell that to howard choi of howardforums.com
Aug 25 15:20:45 <jasta> trigatch4: so, collecting underpants then? :)
Aug 25 15:20:48 <trigatch4> who makes millions each month
Aug 25 15:20:53 <jasta> yeah romain is right.  i mean do whatever you want
Aug 25 15:21:17 <jasta> all i can speak about is the general dev community and i will caution you that you will have a hard time detracting them from the google groups where google employees lurk :)
Aug 25 15:21:18 <trigatch4> romainguy: trust me i'm not listening to jasta on this...
Aug 25 15:21:47 <michaelnovakjr_> making millions is a bit harder than that tri
Aug 25 15:21:47 <Dougie187> i think like 90% of the first phones are going to go the the dev community.
Aug 25 15:21:48 <trigatch4> well the initial idea of the forums was for consumers but
Aug 25 15:21:50 <trigatch4> whateer
Aug 25 15:22:27 <muthu> trigatch4: just worry about putting in some content there
Aug 25 15:22:37 <muthu> it will take off
Aug 25 15:22:49 <trigatch4> thanks muthu
Aug 25 15:23:57 <trigatch4> jasta: you familiar with vincent nguyen?
Aug 25 15:24:18 <jasta> which of the probably tens of thousands of them do you mean? :)
Aug 25 15:24:23 <trigatch4> phonemag, slashgear, etc...
Aug 25 15:24:38 <Dougie187> trigatch4: you have to realize it will probably take some time if its going to take off...
Aug 25 15:25:19 <trigatch4> dougie187 i understand that... i'm not expecting it to really take off yet.. i'm expecting phases. first small flow will happen when pre-release sales start
Aug 25 15:25:31 <Dougie187> lol jasta that was a completely racist statement.
Aug 25 15:25:31 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 25 15:25:33 <trigatch4> and then once the phones are released I think it will catch fire
Aug 25 15:25:40 <jasta> Dougie187: how was it racist?
Aug 25 15:25:52 <Dougie187> personally, i think it will start at release, but its going to be slow.
Aug 25 15:25:59 <Dougie187> how are you going to get the word out for people to know to look there?
Aug 25 15:26:07 <trigatch4> well for one...
Aug 25 15:26:12 <trigatch4> google organic
Aug 25 15:26:13 <michaelnovakjr_> trigatch4: just have a backup plan :)
Aug 25 15:26:16 <muthu> the early movers in android are going to make a roadkill
Aug 25 15:26:28 <michaelnovakjr_> trigatch4: if it was that easy, don't you think every one would be trying it?
Aug 25 15:26:31 <Dougie187> jasta: you are insinuating that there are a ton of people named vincent nguyen.
Aug 25 15:26:33 <jasta> Dougie187: nguyen is a really popular last name.  that's not racist, it's just a fact.
Aug 25 15:26:55 <Dougie187> lol im not saying it was mean... at all. i just thought it was.. i guess more stereotypically then anything.
Aug 25 15:27:00 <jasta> and im guessing that vincent isn't an uncommon name either, so the likelihood of the pair is very high
Aug 25 15:27:05 <trigatch4> michaelnovakjr_ if WHAT was so easy?
Aug 25 15:27:09 <Dougie187> and humorus because i know like 2 people named that.
Aug 25 15:27:10 <trigatch4> ranking organically?
Aug 25 15:27:19 <jasta> Dougie187: it's niether racist nor stereotypical.  it is a fact that nguyen is a popular last name.
Aug 25 15:27:22 <Dougie187> i guess its because that is an asian name that i said it.
Aug 25 15:27:37 <Dougie187> and you are assuming there are thousands of people named that.
Aug 25 15:27:55 <Dougie187> i guess the asian-ness.
Aug 25 15:27:55 <michaelnovakjr_> trigatch4: coming up with an android forum
Aug 25 15:27:59 <jasta> i would also assume that there are lots of "John Smiths", Dougie.  wouldn't you?
Aug 25 15:28:09 <michaelnovakjr_> i could easily do it at www.androidnerds.com if i wanted to :)
Aug 25 15:28:11 <Dougie187> I wouldn't...
Aug 25 15:28:12 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 25 15:28:15 <trigatch4> most people are all talk, michael
Aug 25 15:28:20 <trigatch4> they want to do it
Aug 25 15:28:24 <trigatch4> but don't put in the effort
Aug 25 15:28:29 <trigatch4> its about follow through
Aug 25 15:28:38 <trigatch4> and also, androidforums.com is a pretty sick domain name
Aug 25 15:28:42 <trigatch4> very brandable
Aug 25 15:28:45 <jasta> Dougie187: are you also one of those people that thinks "white on rice" is a racist expression? :)
Aug 25 15:28:49 <michaelnovakjr_> trigatch4: and so is androidnerds.com :)
Aug 25 15:28:53 <trigatch4> and i've already got a history of android content indexed in google
Aug 25 15:28:53 <Dougie187> trigatch4: one thing to note. about taking advice from muthu... his expectation for android is to dominate the mobile market at some point in the future.
Aug 25 15:29:11 <Dougie187> hah jasta i guess i have never really thought about it too much.
Aug 25 15:29:14 <trigatch4> dougie187, i think thatd be a good thing
Aug 25 15:29:15 <muthu> if i'm at google
Aug 25 15:29:16 <trigatch4> :)
Aug 25 15:29:21 <muthu> i can make that happen very soon ;)
Aug 25 15:29:28 <michaelnovakjr_> ?
Aug 25 15:29:41 <muthu> android mobile dominance
Aug 25 15:29:45 <jasta> Dougie187: there are plenty of people who immediately assume it to be racist, but it's only beacuse they are probably racist that they think it :)
Aug 25 15:29:50 <Zohan> world dominatioooon
Aug 25 15:29:50 <muthu> not that hard if you have 140B in bank
Aug 25 15:29:52 <trigatch4> I don't see a reason for someone to say it definitely WON'T dominate
Aug 25 15:29:56 <trigatch4> it has a shot
Aug 25 15:30:02 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, you'd think that
Aug 25 15:30:07 <trigatch4> at being just as big as windows mobile, symbian, etc...
Aug 25 15:30:13 <trigatch4> it should be just that big
Aug 25 15:30:17 <jasta> it's like the people who get uncomfortable when you say "Mexican" because they EXPECT you to follow with somethign derogatory :)
Aug 25 15:30:27 <Dougie187> trigatch4: sure it would be a good thing. but that is an incredibly vague statement.
Aug 25 15:30:36 <Zohan> zohan is a racist
Aug 25 15:30:44 <Zohan> and i dont care what you say
Aug 25 15:30:46 <Dougie187> im just saying.. his advice is not always relavent.
Aug 25 15:30:52 <Dougie187> or realistic.
Aug 25 15:31:00 <Zohan> i dislike chinese, blacks and jews :)
Aug 25 15:31:06 <jasta> but it always is positive, and sometimes even reassuring.
Aug 25 15:31:06 <trigatch4> are developer's pessimistic by nature or is this a new thing?
Aug 25 15:31:15 <muthu> androidforums is  a great domain
Aug 25 15:31:18 <trigatch4> its like you're riding on the short bus, calling the short bus short
Aug 25 15:31:21 <michaelnovakjr_> trigatch4: i try to have a more realistic view on things
Aug 25 15:31:21 <Dougie187> im not trying to be pessimistic.
Aug 25 15:31:26 <Dougie187> im not saying that you are going ot fail.
Aug 25 15:31:27 <jasta> trigatch4: it's neither pessimism nor optimism.  it's objective analysis.
Aug 25 15:31:39 <Dougie187> im just saying that if you are going to expect it to take off its going to take some time.
Aug 25 15:31:48 <michaelnovakjr_> trigatch4: i am going to bet you have your site on a shared host?
Aug 25 15:31:49 <Dougie187> its not realistic to say its going to be huge on day 1 of launch.
Aug 25 15:31:51 <gambler> taco bell is responsible for the US illegal immigration problem
Aug 25 15:31:59 <trigatch4> michaelnovakjr_ no... dedicated server
Aug 25 15:32:04 <michaelnovakjr_> gambler: you aren't even in the US
Aug 25 15:32:07 <gambler> encouraging mexicans to 'make a run for the border'
Aug 25 15:32:39 <trigatch4> why did you guess "shared host"
Aug 25 15:32:40 <michaelnovakjr_> trigatch4: ok so you couldn't handle a huge spike anyway, people would get pissed because your site can't stay up and they would go to Google or T Mobile for help
Aug 25 15:32:58 <trigatch4> uhhhh i don't have a shared host
Aug 25 15:33:06 <Dougie187> what kind of advertising do you have?
Aug 25 15:33:15 <trigatch4> and if the traffic got that high, i'd be able to afford a better server
Aug 25 15:33:18 <michaelnovakjr_> a dedicated server is going to keep up with the traffic it would take for you to make the amount of money you are thinking :)
Aug 25 15:33:20 <trigatch4> i dont have advertising yet
Aug 25 15:33:38 <trigatch4> i'm a former advertising account executive... that part will be easy for me
Aug 25 15:33:38 <michaelnovakjr_> trigatch4: you would need server(s) .... one usually doesn't do it :)
Aug 25 15:33:42 <trigatch4> i'm not worried about that
Aug 25 15:34:13 <michaelnovakjr_> it doesn't look good if it crashes before you grow :)
Aug 25 15:34:20 <trigatch4> ha
Aug 25 15:34:22 <michaelnovakjr_> first impressions are big
Aug 25 15:34:23 <Dougie187> well if you expect to get a huge spike in traffic you need to get the word out.
Aug 25 15:34:24 <trigatch4> thats the least of my concerns
Aug 25 15:34:38 <jasta> trigatch4: honestly, just do it if you think it's a good idea.  but are you sure you're not asking our opinion simply because you don't think it's a good idea? :)
Aug 25 15:34:47 <gambler> trigatch4, your an advertising executive turned developer?
Aug 25 15:34:57 <Dougie187> im not trying to say dont do it. im just trying to say think about everything you need to do.
Aug 25 15:35:11 <trigatch4> jasta: you're misunderstanding what i asked for in the first place
Aug 25 15:35:19 <jasta> probably, i was hardly listening :)
Aug 25 15:35:22 <michaelnovakjr_> Dougie187: i agree, you can't play it up and only have one server to back it :)
Aug 25 15:35:27 <Dougie187> lol you do tend to do that.
Aug 25 15:35:28 <trigatch4> i asked about organization of the forums... if i was missing anything important, if it was logically organized, etc...
Aug 25 15:36:18 <trigatch4> if the server load becomes so high that I need a second server, thatd be a great problem to have and I could get it up and running pretty damn quickly
Aug 25 15:36:20 <jasta> trigatch4: just make sure its google-able and you've got my sign off :)
Aug 25 15:36:29 <trigatch4> google-able?
Aug 25 15:36:31 <trigatch4> haha
Aug 25 15:36:35 <trigatch4> search for "android phone" on google
Aug 25 15:36:39 <trigatch4> or "android forums"
Aug 25 15:36:40 <Dougie187> trigatch4: personally.  i think the forums look fine already as far as organization other then the tips i gave you yesterday which you didnt like. but i think you need to focus on other things if you really want it to be huge by launch. if there are issues about structure those are things you can fix after launch of your site when users start to complain about things.
Aug 25 15:36:52 <jasta> trigatch4: i mean, that the posts are googleable.
Aug 25 15:37:09 <jasta> you can design a site that is so broken that google gets confused...
Aug 25 15:37:17 <trigatch4> dougie187... what tips yesterday that I didn't like?
Aug 25 15:37:30 <Dougie187> the Carriers and Phones forum, without having a forum for each phone and carrier.
Aug 25 15:37:38 <Dougie187> and moving off-topic to horses mouth
Aug 25 15:37:51 <trigatch4> yeah.. i plan on moving off-topic
Aug 25 15:37:53 <Dougie187> anyways, i have to go have lunch with my wife.
Aug 25 15:37:55 <Dougie187> bbl
Aug 25 15:37:55 <michaelnovakjr_> if you ask me this stuff is better left up to the people making the device :)
Aug 25 15:38:05 <trigatch4> hahahaha
Aug 25 15:38:11 <trigatch4> they don't care
Aug 25 15:38:21 <michaelnovakjr_> how do you know?
Aug 25 15:38:25 <gambler> are you going to pay jasta royalties for his content
Aug 25 15:38:28 <trigatch4> the LAST thing HTC or T-Mobile wants to do is provide customer support to people trying to figure their phone out
Aug 25 15:38:36 <trigatch4> they want to sell it and cash in
Aug 25 15:38:40 <michaelnovakjr_> trigatch4: they kind of have to :)
Aug 25 15:38:47 <michaelnovakjr_> T-Mobile is a service and they have support
Aug 25 15:38:49 <michaelnovakjr_> :)
Aug 25 15:38:56 <trigatch4> but they are happy when someone like me comes along and lightens the load
Aug 25 15:38:56 <gambler> Dougie187, say hello to her for me
Aug 25 15:39:23 <michaelnovakjr_> i guess i really don't care... i'm getting an iPhone this week :)
Aug 25 15:39:33 <jasta> do it! :P
Aug 25 15:39:40 <trigatch4> ha, have fun with that
Aug 25 15:39:47 <michaelnovakjr_> jasta, att is much better than sprint
Aug 25 15:39:52 <jasta> agreed.
Aug 25 15:40:06 <trigatch4> att is horrible
Aug 25 15:40:09 <michaelnovakjr_> i'm going thursday
Aug 25 15:40:11 * jasta crosses his fingers the first device supports AT&T's band.  i will try to hack it
Aug 25 15:40:12 <ttuttle> trigatch4: oh?
Aug 25 15:40:20 <jasta> trigatch4: uhm, really?
Aug 25 15:40:28 <ttuttle> trigatch4: I have AT&T... they seem pretty good.
Aug 25 15:40:29 <muthu> iphone will never get mass usage
Aug 25 15:40:30 <trigatch4> i think so, personally
Aug 25 15:40:37 <michaelnovakjr_> wow muth, you are a moron
Aug 25 15:40:40 <trigatch4> everyone i know personally that has AT&T pretty much hates it
Aug 25 15:40:51 <jasta> trigatch4: except for me.  and michaelnovakjr_, apparently.
Aug 25 15:40:51 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, do you know how many people i see with iphones?
Aug 25 15:40:53 <trigatch4> muthu: it already has mass usage
Aug 25 15:41:03 <ttuttle> trigatch4: yes but why?
Aug 25 15:41:08 <michaelnovakjr_> my computer illiterate mother is getting one :)
Aug 25 15:41:10 <jasta> muthu: lol, my cab driver the other day had an iphone.
Aug 25 15:41:13 <muthu> if you think only about US
Aug 25 15:41:13 <michaelnovakjr_> haha
Aug 25 15:41:22 <trigatch4> AT&T is a coverage thing... some places it is okay some places it isn't
Aug 25 15:41:29 <muthu> think outside US
Aug 25 15:41:35 <ttuttle> trigatch4: That's odd, I thought they had a pretty strong network.
Aug 25 15:41:36 <trigatch4> if you read Walt Mossberg's review of the iPhone in WSJ he touches on this
Aug 25 15:41:44 <trigatch4> he explains how the network is patchy
Aug 25 15:41:58 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, the iPhone has sold like hotcakes .... you certainly can't even say that
Aug 25 15:42:05 <trigatch4> AT&T is pretty good in comparison, but Verizon is much, much better
Aug 25 15:42:12 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, you just make yourself sound less and less credible everyday :)
Aug 25 15:42:16 <muthu> michaelnovakjr_: you think US is the world, guess florida is your world
Aug 25 15:42:51 <gambler> oooooh
Aug 25 15:43:03 <trigatch4> well timed, gambler... well timed
Aug 25 15:43:08 <muthu> iphone launched in india
Aug 25 15:43:10 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu i don't live in florida :)
Aug 25 15:43:15 <muthu> look at their sales numbers
Aug 25 15:43:24 <jasta> muthu: if you think in the context of the world, you realize that nokia is the reigning champion, and no one, certainly not google, is going to touch them :)
Aug 25 15:43:26 <muthu> there's billions of customers here
Aug 25 15:43:31 <muthu> but the sales are pathetic
Aug 25 15:43:33 <gambler> michaelnovakjr_ is a serial killer in new york
Aug 25 15:43:37 <muthu> because of high cost
Aug 25 15:43:54 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, what is the comparison in salaries between those in the US and India?
Aug 25 15:43:56 <gambler> i know because he sent me photos of the hobos he is planning to kill
Aug 25 15:43:59 <michaelnovakjr_> is it roughly the same?
Aug 25 15:44:06 <trigatch4> nokia is the reigning champ but... of hardware... right?
Aug 25 15:44:10 <muthu> no, its not
Aug 25 15:44:33 <trigatch4> the competitive advantage is moving away from hardware and towards software
Aug 25 15:44:45 <trigatch4> look at all the devices coming out today and the devices planned
Aug 25 15:44:50 <gambler> muthu, because the phones are high cost or the service?
Aug 25 15:44:52 <jasta> trigatch4: no, Nokia now owns Symbian.
Aug 25 15:44:58 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, if people in India can't afford an iPhone..... what makes you think the $300 android device will see more market share?
Aug 25 15:45:13 <trigatch4> jasta: thats true... good point
Aug 25 15:45:22 <muthu> michaelnovakjr_: i believe android will run on cheap dumb devices
Aug 25 15:45:47 <muthu> gambler: the phones cost a lot
Aug 25 15:45:53 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, certainly not what you expect
Aug 25 15:46:13 <michaelnovakjr_> and i highly doubt network connections will be on those phones.... which probably rules out 75% of applications :)
Aug 25 15:46:18 <muthu> a locked iphone is 36K (~800$) !!
Aug 25 15:46:29 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, not for me :)
Aug 25 15:46:42 <Acsia> anybody in berlin in 2 weeks?
Aug 25 15:46:51 <muthu> michaelnovakjr_: i talk about the world, you talk about US
Aug 25 15:46:57 <trigatch4> if you ask me, the iphone 3g was rushed out specifically to address the upcoming competition of android
Aug 25 15:47:01 <jasta> trigatch4: the point is, muthu's argument is ridiculous.  in the global context, neither the iphone nor android are going to do squat to hurt Nokia.  in little local markets all over, the iphone has dominated.
Aug 25 15:47:21 <muthu> jasta: what makes you think nokia will not run android?
Aug 25 15:47:29 <jasta> and certainly has done well for being just 1 phone.
Aug 25 15:47:36 <gambler> what I want to know is...what are the police doing about michaelnovakjr_ ?
Aug 25 15:47:39 <jasta> muthu: Because they have outright said they won't.  I doubt they lied.
Aug 25 15:47:47 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, again dumbed down phones running android will not be anything great
Aug 25 15:47:56 <jasta> Symbian and Nokia have both separately, adn now collectively, railed Android .
Aug 25 15:48:06 <trigatch4> does anyone remember how DELL became famous for custom creating each computer based on the specifications a user requests?
Aug 25 15:48:10 <muthu> michaelnovakjr_: who gives a shit about great?
Aug 25 15:48:13 <trigatch4> I'd like to see mobile phones move in that direction...
Aug 25 15:48:20 <muthu> lot of people just want a phone
Aug 25 15:48:22 <ttuttle> trigatch4: it's too expensive
Aug 25 15:48:23 <trigatch4> choose your phone... then choose the OS... then choose the apps
Aug 25 15:48:33 <jasta> trigatch4: that would never work. t he manufacturer costs would skyrocket out of control.
Aug 25 15:48:36 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, why would i buy an android phone on a small device without network data coverage?
Aug 25 15:48:58 <jasta> trigatch4: customizing large PCs is a whole lot different than a very tightly all-machine-made phone
Aug 25 15:49:02 <michaelnovakjr_> browser won't work, maps won't work, most apps won't work...... so again tell me what makes that such a great epiphany to the cell phone industry?
Aug 25 15:49:09 <SanMehat> morning
Aug 25 15:49:21 <romainguy__> yo SanMehat
Aug 25 15:49:33 <trigatch4> i don't know how they would make it work
Aug 25 15:49:36 <trigatch4> i said i'd like to see it
Aug 25 15:49:44 <SanMehat> yo romainguy whats up
Aug 25 15:49:48 <muthu> dell is a sad story now
Aug 25 15:50:04 <muthu> they could've really taken the lead on mobile
Aug 25 15:50:04 <romainguy__> SanMehat: not much, watching the wild discussion on this channel, it's always entertaining :)
Aug 25 15:50:22 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, do you not have anything to say to what i last said?
Aug 25 15:50:39 <muthu> michaelnovakjr_: there's different markets
Aug 25 15:50:51 <gambler> muthu, dont make him angry
Aug 25 15:50:51 <SanMehat> romainguy__: i just got here.. any highlights while i scroll back and read? :)
Aug 25 15:50:52 <muthu> and there's a huge market for cheap dumb devices
Aug 25 15:51:01 <romainguy__> SanMehat: it's not that entertaining :)
Aug 25 15:51:07 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu... that do cheap dumb things!!
Aug 25 15:51:17 * gambler cowers in fear
Aug 25 15:51:18 <michaelnovakjr_> like making phone calls and send messages
Aug 25 15:51:19 <SanMehat> romainguy__: ok i wont bother then :)
Aug 25 15:51:35 <muthu> michaelnovakjr_: your view and your world is so small
Aug 25 15:51:50 <muthu> US is a different market than India,China
Aug 25 15:52:02 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, how does that have anything to do with what i said
Aug 25 15:52:13 <michaelnovakjr_> i said no one needs android just to make calls and send messages
Aug 25 15:52:32 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, if they want android its for the extra features.... those features usually found in smartphones
Aug 25 15:52:37 <muthu> there's a lot of people who just call and send messages
Aug 25 15:52:41 <michaelnovakjr_> which tmobile has priced at $300
Aug 25 15:52:49 <jasta> muthu: yeah, but simpler stacks work very well for that.
Aug 25 15:53:02 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, but why would they switch to android? i think nokia has done good for them
Aug 25 15:53:31 <muthu> my point is android would be cheap and functional
Aug 25 15:53:40 <jasta> android certainly won't scale down as low as those other stacks too.
Aug 25 15:53:47 <muthu> why not?
Aug 25 15:53:51 <muthu> its opensource and free
Aug 25 15:54:02 <muthu> carriers can strip it down to whatever api's they need
Aug 25 15:54:02 <jasta> well, because the linux kernel is not nearly as small as the microkernels found in those scaled down stacks.
Aug 25 15:54:05 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, but do regular people care about that?
Aug 25 15:54:14 <jasta> not even in the same ballpark
Aug 25 15:54:27 <SanMehat> jasta: the linux kernel has very *little* to do with androids install footprint or requirements.
Aug 25 15:54:32 <muthu> regular people want phones to call and send messages
Aug 25 15:54:33 <SanMehat> (other than driver support)
Aug 25 15:54:38 <gambler> ye...some phones are so basic you could practically run them off a PIC microcontroller
Aug 25 15:54:42 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, and they currently have it
Aug 25 15:54:50 <jasta> SanMehat: i just meant that there is a bottom limit that can't be removed that's even too large.
Aug 25 15:54:57 <muthu> yeah, and they are looking at prices all the time
Aug 25 15:55:04 <SanMehat> a 2 mb kernel is not too large for the bottom limit
Aug 25 15:55:08 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, you can get the damn phones for free!!!!!!!
Aug 25 15:55:18 <SanMehat> especially when you consider the baseband on most of these devices is > 16 MB itself
Aug 25 15:55:18 <jasta> SanMehat: so even with the best slashed android layer, you can't beat the smaller stacks out there for cheap phones
Aug 25 15:55:31 <muthu> michaelnovakjr_: i'm talking about a range of devices
Aug 25 15:55:39 <michaelnovakjr_> you are talking gibberish, none of these arguments have anything to do with what is the real case
Aug 25 15:55:47 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, again..... you are making my point :)
Aug 25 15:55:49 <SanMehat> i dont know if i would call what cheap phones have a 'stack'.. inasmuch as there isnt very much in there helping you out.
Aug 25 15:56:03 <SanMehat> jasta: most of those 'stacks' dont even enable the MMU
Aug 25 15:56:25 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, you should keep your feet on the ground :)
Aug 25 15:56:29 <ttuttle> SanMehat, romainguy_: greetings
Aug 25 15:56:35 <jasta> SanMehat: what he's trying to say is that Android will take over in developing markets because it can be whittled down to just calls and SMS.  ignoring that there are other software and hardware platforms that can clearly dominate there.
Aug 25 15:56:54 <michaelnovakjr_> android is certainly appealing to those looking for smart phone features..... but as far as real basic functionality.... why bother?
Aug 25 15:56:56 <jasta> the whole approach makes absolutely no sense.
Aug 25 15:56:56 <muthu> jasta: i'm saying it can offer more functionalites for less cost
Aug 25 15:57:01 <SanMehat> if your hardware is from the stone-age and doesn't have MMU support then sure.
Aug 25 15:57:18 <muthu> not like the dumb ass iphone costing
Aug 25 15:57:19 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, what more functionality are you talking about? and for less..... i can get a 16gb iPhone for $300
Aug 25 15:57:38 <SanMehat> you specifically mentioned the linux kernel as a reason... and that is the point i'm disagreeing with.
Aug 25 15:57:42 <muthu> iphone is 800$ in india
Aug 25 15:57:45 <gambler> michaelnovakjr has a picture of steve jobs above his bed
Aug 25 15:57:52 <jasta> muthu: why don't we just wait and see how the next 5 years go?  if android is in everyone's hands you can come back and gloat. deal? :)
Aug 25 15:57:53 <ttuttle> gambler: lol
Aug 25 15:57:57 <ttuttle> muthu: ha, that's hilarious.
Aug 25 15:58:07 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, what is the HTC Dream going to cost..... i'd say probably $800 there too
Aug 25 15:58:20 <muthu> if its costs 800$, i rest my case
Aug 25 15:58:22 <trigatch4> what about WiFi and WhiteSpaces? Could someone with a "regular phone" that normally just uses dialing and MMS use more advanced features for free in some places?
Aug 25 15:58:29 <muthu> hope HTC doesn't screw up that bad!
Aug 25 15:58:33 <trigatch4> Or how about advertising supported use?
Aug 25 15:58:38 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu it costs $300 here..... so don't get too excited
Aug 25 15:58:41 <trigatch4> I think you guys are all thinking "in the box"
Aug 25 15:58:48 <trigatch4> we don't know what will come of android, really
Aug 25 15:59:05 <trigatch4> but you have to crawl before you can walk, i agree there
Aug 25 15:59:09 <muthu> the point is, there would be many android phones
Aug 25 15:59:15 <muthu> so we might get a choice
Aug 25 15:59:20 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu.... ****would be*****
Aug 25 15:59:28 <trigatch4> will be
Aug 25 15:59:29 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, you have no idea what google is doing
Aug 25 15:59:38 <trigatch4> neither does anyone, really
Aug 25 15:59:43 <jasta> lol, this is the silliest conversation we've ever had
Aug 25 15:59:46 <muthu> google has made it clear its open and free
Aug 25 15:59:52 <muthu> it will run on many range of devices
Aug 25 15:59:55 <michaelnovakjr_> so why are people putting all the marbles in the jar for this?
Aug 25 15:59:58 <ttuttle> muthu: s/its/it will be/;
Aug 25 16:00:00 <gambler> jasta: for once your an outsider looking in
Aug 25 16:00:02 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, the current sdk? how?
Aug 25 16:00:18 <trigatch4> to be honest, android could fail completely and google will have already accomplished a lot of what it set out to do...
Aug 25 16:00:29 <muthu> android will not fail
Aug 25 16:00:40 <michaelnovakjr_> just because muthu said so!
Aug 25 16:00:55 <trigatch4> i don't think it will fail either, i'm just saying
Aug 25 16:00:58 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, can you tell me what makes you think the sdk as it is would run on a range of devices?
Aug 25 16:01:10 <michaelnovakjr_> clearly would not be that great :)
Aug 25 16:01:15 <trigatch4> the concept of android has encouraged a lot of competitors to open up already, prying open the doors for mobile ad revenue for google
Aug 25 16:01:27 <michaelnovakjr_> i'm going to pull out my razr and try multi-threading on it!
Aug 25 16:01:33 <SanMehat> michaelnovakjr_: hahahaha
Aug 25 16:01:50 <jasta> hehe
Aug 25 16:02:15 <michaelnovakjr_> there are obvious hardware limitations with something like that muthu, you can't assume small phones will run it in full
Aug 25 16:02:21 <jasta> that was funny for two reasons: the obvious, and...you have a razr?  lol :)
Aug 25 16:02:25 <michaelnovakjr_> haha
Aug 25 16:02:44 <michaelnovakjr_> that and a vintage blackberry 8700
Aug 25 16:02:45 <michaelnovakjr_> :)
Aug 25 16:02:47 <jasta> is it pink, too? :)
Aug 25 16:03:02 <SanMehat> want my old zaurus?
Aug 25 16:03:21 <romainguy_> SanMehat: I loved that thing
Aug 25 16:04:10 <SanMehat> romainguy_: I was cleaning out my office and found my old zaurus
Aug 25 16:04:27 <romainguy_> that device was good
Aug 25 16:04:32 <jasta> SanMehat: dude, i found a 1980's car phone when i cleaned out the server room at my work.
Aug 25 16:04:34 <romainguy_> and the UI was surprisingly good too
Aug 25 16:04:38 <jasta> and a polaroid camera!
Aug 25 16:04:47 <jasta> that was a fun work day
Aug 25 16:04:49 <SanMehat> lol nice
Aug 25 16:05:04 <jasta> the car phone came in its own carrying case.  it was sewn into it.
Aug 25 16:05:19 <michaelnovakjr_> jasta, my friend's father had one of those
Aug 25 16:05:31 <michaelnovakjr_> took up the whole section between the front seats
Aug 25 16:05:38 <michaelnovakjr_> it was a van...
Aug 25 16:08:03 <gambler> and the whole channel goes suddenly quiet
Aug 25 16:08:27 <SanMehat> your friends father had a van? was it white and missing windows? :)
Aug 25 16:09:47 <gambler> it was an ice cream van
Aug 25 16:10:00 <gambler> the phone was to order more ice cream
Aug 25 16:10:58 <gambler> are you british SanMehat ?
Aug 25 16:11:44 <michaelnovakjr_> SanMehat: it had candy in the back
Aug 25 16:13:54 <SanMehat> gambler: no canadian
Aug 25 16:14:25 <romainguy_> SanMehat: where from?
Aug 25 16:14:48 <SanMehat> romainguy_: all over... Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver
Aug 25 16:15:12 <romainguy_> SanMehat: I lived for six months in Montreal
Aug 25 16:15:25 <SanMehat> cool, I owned a night club in Montreal for 3 years :)
Aug 25 16:15:30 <romainguy_> ahah nice
Aug 25 16:16:24 <romainguy_> I was working for an Atari video game studio, next to square Victoria
Aug 25 16:18:02 <gambler> pretty diverse group here...nightclub owners, advertising executives, coders, gamblers, american werewolf in new york
Aug 25 16:18:22 <SanMehat> i'm an ex nightclub owner / coder that likes to gamble? Do I win? :)
Aug 25 16:18:42 <gambler> :)
Aug 25 16:19:37 <gambler> Im an ex-nightclub customer with a severe gambling problem who can code ....poorly
Aug 25 16:20:06 <SanMehat> hahaha
Aug 25 16:20:45 <gambler> the truth hurts :)
Aug 25 16:46:45 <jasta> yawn
Aug 25 16:47:36 <muthu> jasta: have you tried python?
Aug 25 16:49:18 <jasta> yes i know python.
Aug 25 16:49:45 <muthu> which you like? perl or python?
Aug 25 16:49:50 <jasta> i like both perl and python
Aug 25 16:51:56 <muthu> have you tried ruby?
Aug 25 16:51:59 <jasta> no
Aug 25 16:52:17 <jasta> why?
Aug 25 16:54:26 <muthu> i'm trying to figure out if python is more ruby like or perl like
Aug 25 16:54:54 <muthu> goog is so into python
Aug 25 16:55:25 <jasta> probably because they started with it and now that they have a large code base they couldn't change evne if they wanted ot.  don't read too much into it.
Aug 25 16:55:44 <muthu> right
Aug 25 16:58:07 <michaelnovakjr_> muthu, you have a strange obsession with google
Aug 25 16:59:13 <muthu> i think they are doing the right thing
Aug 25 16:59:25 <michaelnovakjr_> huh?
Aug 25 16:59:32 <jasta> michaelnovakjr_: just ignore him.
Aug 25 16:59:41 <michaelnovakjr_> yea, i probably should
Aug 25 17:00:29 <muthu> code blocks are defined by indents in py - interesting
Aug 25 17:01:27 <jasta> i would recommend taht if you only learn 1 of the 3, it be python.
Aug 25 17:01:55 <jasta> but my personal preference is Perl, however it is not trendy these days and i know that is important to you.
Aug 25 17:03:10 <muthu> yeah, python has good reviews
Aug 25 17:03:37 <michaelnovakjr_> did something just fly over the channel?
Aug 25 17:03:38 <ttuttle> jasta: /me likes Perl too :-)
Aug 25 17:05:34 <jasta> ttuttle: perl to me feels less composed, which i find attractive for scripting.  its lack of structure (read: flexibility) is nicer for scripting.
Aug 25 17:05:55 <ttuttle> jasta: yeah
Aug 25 17:06:07 <ttuttle> jasta: some people shoot htemselves in the foot with that flexibility.  I don't.
Aug 25 17:06:14 <jasta> but i do of course appreciate python, i just don't find myself wanting what it offers often
Aug 25 17:06:34 <jasta> projects like what google uses it for certainly seem appropriate, though.
Aug 25 17:07:15 <jasta> ttuttle: you know that despite a lack of try/catch error handling in the language, it is possible to create such a convention with all the expected syntax? :)
Aug 25 17:07:22 <jasta> in fact, folks have done it.
Aug 25 17:07:34 <ttuttle> jasta: yeah.
Aug 25 17:08:01 <jasta> perl's parser can be influenced by the code its parsing, which is so deliciously evil :)
Aug 25 17:09:38 * jasta writes tons and tons of Perl at his current job
Aug 25 17:09:42 <jasta> i do lots of systems automation
Aug 25 17:10:12 <jasta> i generally behave when i write perl though, so mine tends to be maintainable.
Aug 25 17:23:36 <michaelnovakjr_> i like pascal
Aug 25 17:25:38 <haavi> i like COBOL
Aug 25 17:25:43 <muthu> python looks like a nice mix of perl and ruby
Aug 25 17:25:45 <haavi> very nice SYNTAX
Aug 25 17:25:56 <haavi> uhm
Aug 25 17:26:06 <haavi> how so?
Aug 25 17:26:43 <jasta> morrildl: should we expect a "1.0" release prior to phone launch or after?
Aug 25 17:30:25 <Dougie187> lol sounds like you guys had an interesting conversation when i was gone.
Aug 25 17:30:54 <Dougie187> seems like it was a muthu bashing to me..
Aug 25 17:31:52 <michaelnovakjr_> sort of
Aug 25 17:32:17 <Dougie187> i guess thats how it usually goes though.
Aug 25 17:34:18 <jasta> hmm, im having some silly/annoying thing happen in the new eclipse (3.4)
Aug 25 17:34:37 <jasta> under my src folder, it shows the first few levels of the package hierarchy even though there are no classes there
Aug 25 17:34:48 <jasta> it just show sthem with an icon next to them that seems to indicate it knows they are empty
Aug 25 17:34:59 <jasta> there's no reason to show that to me.  how do i make it stop?
Aug 25 17:35:42 <Dougie187> if i knew eclipse much i might be able to help.
Aug 25 17:35:59 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 25 17:37:54 <romainguy_> jasta: it's an option
Aug 25 17:38:04 <romainguy_> you can enabled/disable it in the package view
Aug 25 17:38:14 <romainguy_> there must be an icon/menu entry in the "toolbar" of that view
Aug 25 17:40:00 <morrildl> jasta: prior
Aug 25 17:41:17 <jasta> romainguy_: well, whats weirder still is that the tests/src/ folder i added doesn't do this, but src/ does.
Aug 25 17:41:35 <jasta> i just checked the "filters" in the project view and checked "empty packages" but it did not affect it
Aug 25 17:41:48 <romainguy_> then: stupid Eclipse
Aug 25 17:42:21 <jasta> and "empty parent packages" is already checked
Aug 25 17:43:08 <jasta> for some reason it must not think those are empty?
Aug 25 17:44:39 <michaelnovakjr_> jasta, is it version controlled?
Aug 25 17:45:24 <jasta> yes, but so is the tests folder
Aug 25 17:45:40 <jasta> i just checked, both only have the package folder and .svn
Aug 25 17:45:59 <michaelnovakjr_> weird
Aug 25 17:48:12 <AttractiveApe> jasta: you saw that martin released a v0.9 package for the Vogue?
Aug 25 17:49:34 <jasta> i did not, that i would LOVE to try :)
Aug 25 17:49:52 <michaelnovakjr_> interesting...
Aug 25 17:50:19 <jasta> the built-in SMS app doesn't work because of that rotation requirement
Aug 25 17:50:27 <michaelnovakjr_> ?
Aug 25 17:50:36 <michaelnovakjr_> the keyboard you mean right?
Aug 25 17:50:42 <jasta> michaelnovakjr_: google's included SMS app requires that you "open" the keyboard, which you can't do on the vogue
Aug 25 17:50:47 <michaelnovakjr_> yea
Aug 25 17:51:05 <michaelnovakjr_> i wonder if my sms app works in the new sdk
Aug 25 17:51:12 <michaelnovakjr_> i didn't bother to try because they put one in
Aug 25 17:51:16 <jasta> you'd have to update it some, of course.
Aug 25 17:51:23 <jasta> for the api changes
Aug 25 17:51:32 <jasta> but actually they didnt change nearly as much as they made it seem :)
Aug 25 17:51:40 <michaelnovakjr_> interesting
Aug 25 17:51:41 <jasta> at least, i didnt notice much
Aug 25 17:51:55 <jasta> everything except context menus was entirely trivial
Aug 25 17:52:10 <michaelnovakjr_> what about context menus?
Aug 25 17:52:37 <jasta> they just changed it in a way that you have to step back and think about it for a second
Aug 25 17:52:38 <trigatch4> AttractiveApe: What device is the vogue?
Aug 25 17:52:46 <michaelnovakjr_> htc touch
Aug 25 17:53:03 <trigatch4> I remember hearing about the vogue a long time ago being a verizon phone and didn't hear about it again?
Aug 25 17:53:15 <jasta> trigatch4: it's Sprint, and others internationally
Aug 25 17:53:15 <trigatch4> What markets is it released?
Aug 25 17:53:52 <AttractiveApe> trigatch4: htc touch, the cdma variant.
Aug 25 17:53:57 <trigatch4> Is it marketed as the Vogue? I don't recall hearing that name in quite awhile... perhaps cause i'm USA
Aug 25 17:54:17 <AttractiveApe> trigatch4: the vogue is the model name, as there's two HTC Touch'
Aug 25 17:54:39 <AttractiveApe> s, one is cdma, one is gsm.  Both have entirely different chipsets, and android runs on the CDMA version.
Aug 25 17:56:45 <michaelnovakjr_> maybe i'll update the Messages app since the built in one won't work
Aug 25 18:02:20 <AttractiveApe> heh, that'd be great michaelnovakjr_
Aug 25 18:02:32 <jasta> AttractiveApe: how does it run 0.9r1?
Aug 25 18:02:46 <AttractiveApe> I haven't booted it yet
Aug 25 18:02:51 <jasta> AttractiveApe: I've been fixing a TON of bugs in five-music, I bet it could run on 0.9r1 ;)
Aug 25 18:02:54 <AttractiveApe> it just noticed the update on Martin's page
Aug 25 18:03:05 <AttractiveApe> jasta: cool
Aug 25 18:03:10 <AttractiveApe> that'd be awesome.
Aug 25 18:03:17 <jasta> five-music broke badly in 0.9r1 because i was doing a lot of naughty things (i didn't know at the time!)
Aug 25 18:03:35 <jasta> as a result i've been working through making things right and i bet i will accidentally fix the bugs that prevented it on the vogue
Aug 25 18:03:57 <jasta> get it loaded up and in the next couple of days i could try sending you a five-music package to try :)
Aug 25 18:04:10 <jasta> five-client is all done and updated, but five-music won't build currently (i redesigned the services)
Aug 25 18:05:31 <AttractiveApe> jasta: cool, looking forward to it :)
Aug 25 18:05:58 <jasta> i'm working on unit testing the crap out of five-client first so i don't have nearly as complex bugs to solve when i move in and get five-music to start using it
Aug 25 18:10:49 <jasta> morrildl: excellent.  any rough guage on how much of a window we'll have?
Aug 25 18:11:07 <jasta> AttractiveApe: i wonder, does the mediaplayer worker to play sounds?
Aug 25 18:11:10 <jasta> AttractiveApe: on the vogue, i mean
Aug 25 18:11:18 <jasta> probably not, which would suck :)
Aug 25 18:12:08 <AttractiveApe> jasta: I'll upload the new stuff sometime today maybe
Aug 25 18:16:33 <jasta> sweet :)
Aug 25 19:59:12 <trigatch4> got quiet..
Aug 25 20:25:56 <jasta> anyone here know a fair bit about the binder threads?
Aug 25 20:28:06 <jasta> i'm trying to find out if i have an asynchronous callback (that is being called by the server with a RemoteCallbackList), will each invocation in the callback IInterface be on the same binder thread?
Aug 25 20:28:24 <jasta> is this a guarantee or just maybe a coincidence?
Aug 25 20:28:36 <jasta> i'm trying to find out if i need to make each operation thread-safe
Aug 25 20:29:29 <ttuttle> hi
Aug 25 20:29:54 <jasta> hello, do you know this?  :)
Aug 25 20:32:28 <jasta> i would think that it would be reliable to assume it does not create a separate thread unless the service is disconnected/reconnected somehow
Aug 25 20:32:43 <jasta> so if i don't support handling onServiceDisconnected(), then it should be an impossible situation
Aug 25 20:32:54 <jasta> so it would be more efficient not to bother synchronizing the callback methods
Aug 25 20:34:45 <jasta> but i'd like clarification if anyone knows
Aug 25 20:37:48 <jasta> ohh, IBinder might document this, *reading*
Aug 25 20:40:47 <jasta> hmm, this seems to suggest that it won't really make that guarantee
Aug 25 21:08:57 <anno^da> What is the easiest way to write the file saved in a ContentProvider in a normal file ?
Aug 25 21:09:46 <anno^da> At the moment I'm taking the InputStream write it into a byte[] and use the FileOutputStream
Aug 25 21:10:10 <jasta> that is the way you do it.
Aug 25 21:10:42 <jasta> i always thought Java should have some reasonable helper here, but it seems not to.
Aug 25 21:10:52 <jasta> at least without a helper you are encouraged to handle error conditions properly
Aug 25 21:12:13 <anno^da> ok great it is just a work around for the tumblr service
Aug 25 21:12:28 <anno^da> the service doesnt accept chunked transfer encoding :/
Aug 25 21:13:08 <anno^da> So I cant take the InputStreamBody for the multipart message
Aug 25 21:15:02 <anno^da> Now I have to do the weird thing: saving the byte[] from the camera into the ContentProvider (because the user should have access to his taken pictures) but on the other hand taking the whole things out of the CP and save again as a byte[] :)
Aug 25 21:20:48 <jasta> what?
Aug 25 21:22:44 <anno^da> ok great it is working now
Aug 25 21:23:26 <anno^da> jasta: it was about this: http://hc.apache.org/httpcomponents-client/httpmime/apidocs/index.html   (InputStreamBody)
Aug 25 21:23:41 <anno^da> which results in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunked_transfer_encoding
Aug 25 21:23:50 <anno^da> at the multipart message
Aug 25 21:24:04 <anno^da> But Tumblr refuses the chunked transfer encoding
Aug 25 21:24:44 <anno^da> Well so I have to take the FilePartBody :).
Aug 25 21:29:08 <jasta> chunk trnasfer is for when you don't know the size of the document ahead of time
Aug 25 21:29:16 <jasta> not for streaming the document.
Aug 25 21:29:29 <jasta> do you know that?
Aug 25 21:30:39 <anno^da> I know that but if I want the size of the image I have to take it out of the ConentProvider. Or is there a way to get the size through the ContentResolver
Aug 25 21:31:00 <jasta> i bet there is, actually.
Aug 25 21:31:10 <anno^da> Well I've searched hmm
Aug 25 21:31:50 <jasta> ask the google groups.  it would be much better if you dont bundle it in one giant array if you don't have to.
Aug 25 21:31:59 <jasta> memory is at a premium.
Aug 25 21:32:37 <anno^da> I know that :/. I will open a message at the groups.
Aug 25 21:43:44 <Acsia> i ve been designing web pages for 15 years and I just realize the naming convention of 'head' and 'body'
Aug 25 21:47:07 <herriojr> has anyone installed 0.9 on a CDMA phone and gotten the browser to work?
Aug 25 21:47:17 <herriojr> it doesn't seem to be able to open a connection
Aug 25 21:50:31 <jasta> herriojr: dzo did.
Aug 25 22:05:26 <jasta> morrildl: can you do me a favor?
Aug 25 22:06:19 <jasta> i seem to having some issues actually making callbacks work at all with ServiceTestCase.  are there are any tests like this in Android's code that you can look at to help me figure out what i must do?
Aug 25 22:09:19 <zhobbs> romainguy_: when you have multiple views stacked on top of each other should the OnClickListener() be called for just the top view?  or for all views?
Aug 25 22:10:11 <jasta> i believe the events do not bubble: so just the top view.
Aug 25 22:10:34 <jasta> can you build a simple test case to confirm?
Aug 25 22:11:24 <zhobbs> jasta: I think you're right...
Aug 25 22:16:27 <jasta> it would not be too hard to mimic this behaviour yourself, either generally or in the context of your app
Aug 25 22:25:53 <Dougie187> yay. another tropical storm
Aug 25 22:34:12 <zhobbs> today's woot sure is tempting....
Aug 25 22:41:39 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 25 22:41:41 <Dougie187> 65"
Aug 25 22:41:49 <Dougie187> thats crazy expensive though.
Aug 25 22:43:27 <zhobbs> cheap for the size
Aug 25 22:43:40 <Dougie187> true.
Aug 25 22:43:43 <Dougie187> and its 1080
Aug 25 22:44:00 <zhobbs> i'd probably get it, but olevia just filed for bankruptcy
Aug 25 22:44:16 <zhobbs> and I'd be afraid of not being able to get service/repair
Aug 25 22:44:17 <Dougie187> the "selling point" is humorous though.
Aug 25 23:01:58 <jasta> morrildl: i posted to the groups: http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/2ff39cd83a2dd199
Aug 25 23:41:42 <jasta> oh crap
Aug 25 23:41:50 <jasta> power might get knocked out
Aug 25 23:57:56 <morrildl> argh
Aug 25 23:58:07 * morrildl apparently takes a somewhat expansive version of the definition of "week"
Aug 25 23:58:08 <laz> argh cant wait
Aug 25 23:58:16 <morrildl> oh well, too late now
Aug 26 00:03:19 <jasta> morrildl: what?
Aug 26 00:20:39 <laz> wow
Aug 26 00:20:45 <jasta> what are you guys talking about?
Aug 26 00:20:55 <laz> any developers in here?
Aug 26 00:22:04 <laz> a robot
Aug 26 00:28:42 <jasta> laz: this channel is almost exclusively developers.
Aug 26 00:28:46 <jasta> is full of*
Aug 26 00:28:52 <jasta> so yes, there are developers in here.
Aug 26 00:41:08 <jasta> morrildl: that note about GtalkService is not too surprising.  i had always thought that feature was perhaps poorly thought out
Aug 26 00:51:15 <SanMehat> re:
Aug 26 00:51:45 <laz> whats some good sites/books to learn how to program for android?
Aug 26 00:52:26 <_avatar> laz: http://code.google.com/android/documentation.html
Aug 26 00:57:51 <laz> i'm gonna create a p2p gnutella client
Aug 26 01:00:14 <SanMehat> such a bad idea.
Aug 26 01:00:20 <SanMehat> :)
Aug 26 01:00:23 <laz> :(
Aug 26 01:00:38 <SanMehat> kiss your battery life goodbye :(
Aug 26 01:00:54 <laz> but you will have music heaven in android
Aug 26 01:01:11 <SanMehat> yeah and a dead battery :)
Aug 26 01:02:17 <npelly> laz: i recommend not taking android ideas from simonn :)
Aug 26 01:06:54 <laz> wouldnt the battery die just doing normal stuff like aim/browsing/listening to music....
Aug 26 01:06:56 <herriojr> I figured it out....communication problems :)
Aug 26 01:07:42 <SanMehat> laz: yes, but not as quickliy. a p2p client would be sending and receiving data constantly; something which is a KILLER on the battery.
Aug 26 01:08:08 <SanMehat> (because it costs power to transmit and receive data off the wire)
Aug 26 01:12:18 <laz> I want my dream now!!!! :(
Aug 26 01:18:34 <jasta> laz: if you really want to implement something like that, do it with a server-assisted proxy component
Aug 26 01:18:38 <jasta> such as your home computer
Aug 26 01:18:55 <jasta> the peer-to-peer networks overhead is huge, whereas the overhead of the content delivery is at least well bound.
Aug 26 01:19:46 <jasta> SanMehat: i'm so nervous to see how Five performs.  lately ive' been moving through redesigning and optimizing ;)
Aug 26 01:20:40 <jasta> but there's nothing i can to stave off the fact that it will be transmitting large amounts of data and doing audio decoding/playback (btw, i really hope i get a coprocessor in the first android phone *rin*)
Aug 26 01:20:44 <jasta> grin*
Aug 26 01:21:10 <jasta> still, i expect most usages of Five to be either with short duration, or wall power nearby.
Aug 26 01:21:23 <jasta> like playing music in your home or car, or going for a jog...
Aug 26 01:21:44 <jasta> also, i expect my users to buy bigger than 1GB storage cards :)
Aug 26 01:48:47 <jasta> morrildl: hey, pretty soon here i'm going to need to do unit testing on a service that requires callbacks to work (or at least, be testable).  can you please look to see if there's something totally simple that i need to do to test this?
Aug 26 02:21:15 <muthu> morn
Aug 26 02:29:02 <laz> night
Aug 26 02:30:21 <muthu> m+15m
Aug 26 02:51:00 <umdk1d3> mmm nice @ morrildl blog post, really helps clear up some things
Aug 26 02:51:16 <umdk1d3> yay for being more open about internal stuff  :)
Aug 26 02:51:31 <muthu> where's the link?
Aug 26 02:51:34 <umdk1d3> not sure if it was pasted in here yet  http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/08/some-information-on-apis-removed-in.html
Aug 26 02:51:40 <umdk1d3> a few hours ago
Aug 26 02:51:44 <muthu> thx
Aug 26 02:53:05 <muthu> nice to get some updates
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Aug 26 02:59:57 2008