**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Aug 28 02:59:56 2008
Aug 28 03:15:23 <muthu> hey, big day!!!
Aug 28 03:20:24 <muthu> hearing a lot of rumors
Aug 28 03:20:35 <muthu> man.. who else on the rumor mill?
Aug 28 03:26:55 <f00f-> everyone and their mom
Aug 28 03:27:36 <muthu> f00f-: what's up man?
Aug 28 03:27:37 <muthu> any news?
Aug 28 03:27:43 <f00f-> nada
Aug 28 03:28:03 <f00f-> you?
Aug 28 03:28:21 <muthu> waiting on the boss..
Aug 28 03:29:17 <f00f-> not bad
Aug 28 03:44:43 <SanMehat> re:
Aug 28 03:44:55 <f00f-> tu reviens aussi?
Aug 28 03:52:24 <romainguy> re
Aug 28 04:04:29 <zhobbs> anyone here in europe can test something for me?
Aug 28 04:06:24 <muthu> zhobbs: its a bit early for europeans
Aug 28 04:06:30 <zhobbs> yeah I know
Aug 28 04:25:36 <snadge> i want my.... i want my.. htc...
Aug 28 04:26:03 <snadge> (to the tune of money for nothing, dire straits)
Aug 28 04:29:02 <muthu> i want my.. i want my.. dream...
Aug 28 04:32:50 <snadge> well the htc dream is the only model you could possibly want really
Aug 28 04:32:56 <snadge> so i found that part redundant :p
Aug 28 04:33:11 <snadge> doesnt the rest of their crap run windows?
Aug 28 04:33:46 <muthu> yeah
Aug 28 04:33:51 <muthu> mostly windows
Aug 28 04:33:55 <snadge> i would've loved to have been a chair nearby ballmer when he found out about htc's decision to go with android
Aug 28 04:34:08 <muthu> lol
Aug 28 04:34:13 <muthu> you would've broke!
Aug 28 04:34:38 <snadge> well it would be very boring being a chair.. and being propelled by steve ballmer in anger, would be relatively exciting ;)
Aug 28 04:34:55 <snadge> an honor even lol
Aug 28 04:35:26 <muthu> have htc stopped shipping windows?
Aug 28 04:35:52 <snadge> i dont think so no.. but just the mere admission that they were releasing an android based phone.. when they specialise in windows mobile phones
Aug 28 04:36:32 <muthu> yeah, that's a big downer for ballmer
Aug 28 04:36:36 <snadge> you wouldn't bother doing that if you were happy with windows mobile
Aug 28 04:36:46 <muthu> right
Aug 28 04:37:31 <snadge> so .. it can be interpreted as an admission by htc, that windows mobile is inferior .. compared to an untested, and unreleased, non-existant platform... ouch ;)
Aug 28 04:38:36 <muthu> they might have plans to drop windows in future
Aug 28 04:38:56 <snadge> if the dream is successful for them, you can count on it
Aug 28 04:39:11 <muthu> dream will be a huge hit
Aug 28 04:39:23 <snadge> its all i want for christmas
Aug 28 04:39:44 <muthu> i'll buy the first one that hits India
Aug 28 04:40:08 <snadge> htc make great phones too.. my flatmate has a htc tytn II
Aug 28 04:40:23 <snadge> and even though it runs windows mobile 6 .. and i hate microsoft with a passion
Aug 28 04:40:32 <snadge> i'd have to say its better than an iphone
Aug 28 04:40:38 <snadge> more functional
Aug 28 04:40:44 <snadge> maybe not quite as "pretty"
Aug 28 04:40:51 <muthu> could be
Aug 28 04:41:15 <snadge> without a doubt.. the iphone is just a glorified ipod
Aug 28 04:41:23 <snadge> that just happens to have a couple of phone like features
Aug 28 04:41:32 * muthu hates apple
Aug 28 04:42:09 <snadge> i've decided i hate them more than microsoft.. at least microsoft doesnt try to restrict what hardware you can run their software on.. and doesnt try to limit what developers can and cant do with their software
Aug 28 04:43:03 <muthu> yes
Aug 28 04:43:10 <muthu> microsoft is a lot better than apple
Aug 28 04:43:50 <snadge> have you downloaded the api yet?
Aug 28 04:43:55 * zhobbs is on suicide watch, found out that a feature of Tunewiki doesn't work in some countries...
Aug 28 04:44:07 <zhobbs> no chance in adc.....
Aug 28 04:44:30 <muthu> zhobbs: hang on
Aug 28 04:44:39 <muthu> snadge: what api?
Aug 28 04:45:34 <muthu> hey goog, can adc 1 winners enter adc 2?
Aug 28 04:45:34 <snadge> muthu: android 0.9 :p
Aug 28 04:45:47 <muthu> snadge: hell yeah!
Aug 28 04:46:07 <snadge> i think im going to make an android based game
Aug 28 04:46:14 <snadge> that insults iphones and windows mobile
Aug 28 04:46:15 <muthu> do it
Aug 28 04:46:20 <muthu> haha
Aug 28 04:46:39 <snadge> i'll make it fun and addictive and hopefully it will be available for launch :P
Aug 28 04:47:02 <muthu> the key here is to make it available at launch
Aug 28 04:47:05 <muthu> then you never know
Aug 28 04:47:17 <f00f-> i still dont see a good sms app
Aug 28 04:47:19 <f00f-> how is the stock one?
Aug 28 04:47:41 <zhobbs> f00f-: have you seen the one in 0.9?
Aug 28 04:48:19 <snadge> how good is the emulator?
Aug 28 04:48:24 <muthu> i would not do anything that is already in built
Aug 28 04:48:43 <muthu> snadge: jump right in, developing in android is a pleasure
Aug 28 04:48:45 <snadge> is it not much trouble to boot up 0.9 in it and play around?
Aug 28 04:49:14 <snadge> im at work at the moment, but i'll have a look this evening
Aug 28 04:49:26 <zhobbs> snadge: just download the SDK and run "emulator" in the tools folder
Aug 28 04:49:38 <snadge> linux? (ubuntu)
Aug 28 04:50:27 <snadge> ahh yes i386 .. sweet
Aug 28 04:51:48 <muthu> ubuntu would do
Aug 28 04:51:51 <muthu> or get fedora 9
Aug 28 04:52:00 <muthu> eclipse ganymede
Aug 28 04:52:05 <muthu> android sdk
Aug 28 04:52:07 <muthu> that's it
Aug 28 04:58:01 <snadge> im going to have to learn opengl programming quick smart
Aug 28 04:58:15 <romainguy> OpenGL is pretty easy
Aug 28 04:58:40 <snadge> it'll either be a game that involves bill gates' face.. and cream pies
Aug 28 04:58:59 <snadge> objective being to pie as many bills in the face in the shortest amount of time.. something like that ;)
Aug 28 04:59:13 <romainguy> I remember playing such a game on Windows 95
Aug 28 04:59:16 <snadge> or perhaps a chair throwing game
Aug 28 04:59:22 <romainguy> it was lame then, I'm sure it's still lame now :)
Aug 28 04:59:41 <snadge> chair olympics.. with steve ballmer
Aug 28 05:07:18 <f00f-> zhobbs: no i havent
Aug 28 05:07:43 <f00f-> oh yeah
Aug 28 05:07:43 <f00f-> totally
Aug 28 05:07:46 <f00f-> i remember the bill game
Aug 28 05:09:08 <f00f-> man it's all about CSV api's
Aug 28 05:09:10 <f00f-> lean and mean
Aug 28 05:09:22 <romainguy> ?
Aug 28 05:09:30 <f00f-> some data can't be put into the CSV model
Aug 28 05:09:33 <f00f-> it's a pretty harsh schema
Aug 28 05:09:45 <f00f-> so just stuff key-value pairs into HTTP headers and you're good
Aug 28 05:09:48 <cliff_> you mean like, data with commas?
Aug 28 05:09:53 <f00f-> yeah
Aug 28 05:09:54 <f00f-> a,b,c,d
Aug 28 05:09:56 <cliff_> lol
Aug 28 05:10:34 <snadge> ok .. so im running the emulator.. wow ;)
Aug 28 05:10:40 <f00f-> although i wonder how much efficiency i gain by using CSV versus JSON parsing
Aug 28 05:11:57 <cliff_> just the question alone is too much thought
Aug 28 05:38:20 <muthu> http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080827/156975/
Aug 28 05:41:14 <gambler> he looks like he is doing karaoke
Aug 28 05:41:58 <snadge> i like the web browser.. what is it?
Aug 28 05:42:15 <snadge> and can i run it on ubuntu? :P
Aug 28 05:43:16 <muthu> gambler: lol
Aug 28 05:52:30 <muthu> haha.. karaoke
Aug 28 05:52:42 <muthu> wonder what he's singing :)
Aug 28 06:12:32 <f00f-> what to use to encode entities in html?
Aug 28 06:12:45 <f00f-> like Uri.encode but for XML
Aug 28 06:13:26 <muthu> there must be some helper in .net package
Aug 28 06:13:58 <f00f-> wow, didnt even notice android.net.http.AndroidHttpClient before
Aug 28 06:14:25 <muthu> yeah, that should help
Aug 28 06:15:04 <romainguy> hmm
Aug 28 06:15:10 <romainguy> it's not in the SDK 0.9
Aug 28 06:24:17 <muthu> really? thought i saw it in there
Aug 28 06:24:38 <romainguy> if it is, it is not part of the public API
Aug 28 06:24:45 <f00f-> it's not usable it seems
Aug 28 06:25:13 <f00f-> so romain you get to take your phone home :P
Aug 28 06:25:40 <romainguy> make that my phoneS
Aug 28 06:25:41 <muthu> bet they are already using some of the apps ;)
Aug 28 06:25:47 <f00f-> :)
Aug 28 06:26:01 <romainguy> I have 5 devices right here :p
Aug 28 06:26:13 <muthu> all different?
Aug 28 06:26:53 <romainguy> just 5 versions of the same prototype
Aug 28 06:27:02 <muthu> oh ok
Aug 28 07:09:30 <f00f-> why is it so hard to use HttpPost
Aug 28 07:09:45 <f00f-> i want UrlEncodedFormEntity but way simpler
Aug 28 07:13:42 <anno^da> well actually it is pretty simple
Aug 28 07:17:43 <f00f-> extend a class?
Aug 28 07:17:45 <f00f-> give me a break
Aug 28 07:17:49 <anno^da> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/83602/  all you have to do. I think it is not possible to make it eveb more simple
Aug 28 07:17:53 <f00f-> for key=value pairs
Aug 28 07:18:44 <f00f-> oh my
Aug 28 07:18:55 <f00f-> i misunderstood the javadoc
Aug 28 07:18:59 <anno^da> :-)
Aug 28 07:19:02 <f00f-> that is simple anno^da :P
Aug 28 07:19:28 <f00f-> ugh i already implemented a solution, but it's not future-proof
Aug 28 07:19:30 <f00f-> this is ^^
Aug 28 07:20:00 <anno^da> Yeah it is :) I've used it several times. If you have to do multipart messages it is a bit more complicated since the multipart entity is gone. But with the right external libs it is easy as well.
Aug 28 07:37:29 <umdk1d3> yay /me claps hands
Aug 28 07:37:36 <umdk1d3> my adapters are working flawlessly  ^.^
Aug 28 07:37:46 <muthu> gr88
Aug 28 07:38:01 <umdk1d3> muthu: when do you sleep?  :P
Aug 28 07:38:05 <f00f-> hmm i'm getting a 417 http error code, it must be me
Aug 28 07:38:05 <muthu> hehe
Aug 28 07:38:08 <muthu> its noon for me
Aug 28 07:38:11 <muthu> just finished lunch
Aug 28 07:38:16 <umdk1d3> oh lol, 130am here
Aug 28 07:38:26 <muthu> its the same.. except pm
Aug 28 07:38:35 <muthu> not getting sleep huh ;)
Aug 28 07:38:37 <umdk1d3> crazy lol
Aug 28 07:38:47 <umdk1d3> i switched my schedule around to work nights now
Aug 28 07:38:54 <muthu> i'm repeatedly counting from 1.. 20
Aug 28 07:38:56 <muthu> lol
Aug 28 07:39:45 <umdk1d3> ill tell ya one thing--its nice to grab groceries in an empty store
Aug 28 07:39:51 <umdk1d3> nobody around and you can take your time
Aug 28 07:40:00 <muthu> are you sure it was groceries.. lol
Aug 28 07:40:06 <muthu> :P
Aug 28 07:40:18 <umdk1d3> waaaat?  /me lost
Aug 28 07:40:29 <muthu> haha
Aug 28 07:40:33 <f00f-> i know umdk1d3
Aug 28 07:40:39 <f00f-> that's how i used to shop in college
Aug 28 07:40:51 <f00f-> but you dont want to go in there when they're doing inventory
Aug 28 07:41:00 <umdk1d3> hmm true  :/
Aug 28 07:41:11 <f00f-> so 2am & later probably work well :)
Aug 28 07:41:13 <umdk1d3> i hear the most awesome idea the other day--coffee pot ramen
Aug 28 07:41:15 <muthu> why changed to work nights?
Aug 28 07:41:34 <f00f-> oh dude
Aug 28 07:41:37 <f00f-> that is a killer idea
Aug 28 07:41:50 <f00f-> if i am ever that cheap again, that will be on my list!
Aug 28 07:42:16 <umdk1d3> i just wonder how well it would work
Aug 28 07:42:29 <f00f-> very little ramen
Aug 28 07:42:34 <f00f-> unless you have a big pot
Aug 28 07:42:39 <umdk1d3> muthu: less distractions, and my adsl works better in the cool evening
Aug 28 07:42:56 <muthu> umdk1d3: true, you can get a lot done
Aug 28 07:43:20 <muthu> but kinda lonely
Aug 28 07:43:37 <umdk1d3> heh its 48\degr F right now 9 C
Aug 28 07:43:51 <snadge> hmm.. that could actually be the killer application
Aug 28 07:43:53 <romainguy> umdk1d3: ill tell ya one thing--its nice to grab groceries in an empty store << I used to do this :))
Aug 28 07:44:04 <snadge> if my android phone can make me coffee in the morning
Aug 28 07:44:13 <umdk1d3> snadge: BSD TOASTER!!  XD
Aug 28 07:44:19 <snadge> maybe as part of the alarm clock applet?
Aug 28 07:44:24 <snadge> hehe
Aug 28 07:44:32 <umdk1d3> romainguy: lol was that before you had a gf tho?
Aug 28 07:44:36 <f00f-> anno^da: wtf... it seems HttpPost is somehow adding an Expect header?!
Aug 28 07:44:38 <umdk1d3> im female-less atm, which makes this easy
Aug 28 07:44:49 <snadge> i dont mind if i have to rig up a bit of interfacing between the phone and the coffee machine somehow
Aug 28 07:45:05 <snadge> bluetooth is out of the question for launch.. maybe usb or something?
Aug 28 07:45:15 <umdk1d3> snadge:  just home ip network
Aug 28 07:45:35 <snadge> but then i have to add an ip stack to my coffee machine which seems a bit extreme
Aug 28 07:45:36 * umdk1d3 digs up a home automatuion android app
Aug 28 07:45:41 <f00f-> just use the coffeepot control protocol
Aug 28 07:45:44 <f00f-> it's published in an rfc
Aug 28 07:45:52 <umdk1d3> seriouiusly??  rofl
Aug 28 07:46:24 <snadge> i really do need coffee in the morning.. seriously.. currently i have to get up and out of bed, to make the coffee.. i consider this to be a serious weakness ;)
Aug 28 07:46:34 <umdk1d3> snadge: these guys do home automation and have an android app out there   http://www.hometheaternetwork.com/autoHTN.php
Aug 28 07:47:03 <f00f-> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2324.txt
Aug 28 07:47:25 <umdk1d3> roooooooofl
Aug 28 07:47:50 <f00f-> highly compatible with HTTP
Aug 28 07:47:57 <f00f-> can be proxied through your favorite proxy server, too
Aug 28 07:48:04 <umdk1d3> LMAO   http error code "418 I'm a teapot"
Aug 28 07:48:15 <f00f-> access remote coffee pots with ease
Aug 28 07:48:48 <muthu> haha
Aug 28 07:50:02 <snadge> ok so we need an rfc2324 implementation for android :P
Aug 28 07:50:31 <snadge> it looks reasonably feature complete .. and sufficient for coffee making purposes
Aug 28 07:50:38 <umdk1d3> waohh (mind blowing)    why doesnt the coffee pot /run android/?
Aug 28 07:51:29 <snadge> yeah.. i can see that, but my first thought was
Aug 28 07:51:50 <snadge> are people going to want to port android to x86 and try and run it on pcs
Aug 28 07:52:03 <gjs> '
Aug 28 07:52:03 <gjs> '"''/
Aug 28 07:52:03 <gjs> "
Aug 28 07:52:17 <umdk1d3> well porting shouldnt be too bad
Aug 28 07:52:25 <umdk1d3> its just the linux kernel, which is already x86
Aug 28 07:52:36 <snadge> its obviously inappropriate .. but theres a reasoning for it
Aug 28 07:52:48 <snadge> if you have a low resolution, lowly specced legacy machine
Aug 28 07:53:04 <snadge> a stripped down gui with efficient applications .. sounds like a good idea
Aug 28 07:53:16 <umdk1d3> wait a sec tho, you can still do powerufl stuff tho
Aug 28 07:53:27 <umdk1d3> this /couuld/ be googles entrance into the desktop market
Aug 28 07:53:42 <umdk1d3> since everything is replaceable, just replace it with desktop-style apps
Aug 28 07:53:42 <snadge> of course.. theres many situations where the full blown X desktop with compiz etc.. is just overkill
Aug 28 07:53:52 <umdk1d3> <3 compiz
Aug 28 07:54:15 <snadge> even if you have 8 cores and 4 gigs of ram.. you dont necessarily want your X server and browser etc to gobble it all up
Aug 28 07:56:06 <snadge> its off topic and out of scope, but i bet im not the first to consider alternative applications for android :P
Aug 28 07:56:20 <f00f-> Google TV will come in 2009 or 2010
Aug 28 07:56:26 <f00f-> gTube
Aug 28 07:56:28 <f00f-> or whatever u want to call it
Aug 28 07:56:53 <muthu> youtube
Aug 28 07:57:25 <snadge> f0 (clear interrupts) 0f (halt and wait for interrupt)
Aug 28 07:57:28 <snadge> :P
Aug 28 07:59:13 <snadge> f00f_bug      : yes
Aug 28 07:59:43 <f00f-> my own catch-22 ;)
Aug 28 07:59:57 <f00f-> YourTube
Aug 28 08:00:02 <f00f-> well whatevr they call it
Aug 28 08:00:07 <f00f-> android will run on it
Aug 28 08:00:35 <muthu> haha
Aug 28 08:00:44 <muthu> f00fTube
Aug 28 08:08:49 <snadge> halt and catch fire
Aug 28 08:09:03 <snadge> is my favourite cpu instruction :p
Aug 28 08:09:56 <muthu> does it work?
Aug 28 08:11:23 <snadge> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire
Aug 28 08:13:15 <muthu> ha, interesting
Aug 28 08:15:33 <gambler> f00f-, what is google tv
Aug 28 08:18:32 <f00f-> gambler, refer to entry "Apple TV"
Aug 28 08:20:18 <f00f-> it's getting late
Aug 28 08:20:19 <f00f-> good night folks
Aug 28 08:20:25 <gambler> gnite
Aug 28 08:20:32 <muthu> nite f00f-
Aug 28 08:23:51 <muthu> iphone is a massive failure in India
Aug 28 08:24:29 <muthu> goog, look at iphone launch in India and please avoid everything they tried to do
Aug 28 08:25:48 <snadge> i tried to get excited about the iphone
Aug 28 08:26:00 <snadge> until i realised it was just an ipod, with a crippled phone attached to it
Aug 28 08:26:11 <muthu> terrible news floating around regarding iphone
Aug 28 08:26:20 <muthu> emails are flying asking everyone not to buy
Aug 28 08:26:37 <snadge> cant send mms messages? as well as other little bugs
Aug 28 08:27:29 <muthu> there's a huge list of things that iphone doesn't do
Aug 28 08:27:43 <muthu> or does it in its own way
Aug 28 08:28:00 <muthu> which is annoying a lot of people here
Aug 28 08:28:23 <Zohan> iphone ftl
Aug 28 08:29:12 <snadge> i think its greatest flaw is that its an apple product
Aug 28 08:29:26 <Zohan> true
Aug 28 08:29:27 <snadge> and all the other flaws basically relate back to that one single massive flaw
Aug 28 08:29:33 <Zohan> true
Aug 28 08:29:58 <snadge> google could take a dump onto a circuit board, and it would be better than the iphone ;)
Aug 28 08:30:09 <muthu> lol
Aug 28 08:30:34 <Zohan> google sucks, too
Aug 28 08:30:43 <snadge> they would have to be happy about the competition surely.. i mean.. sure, its pre-existing and established.. but *cough*
Aug 28 08:31:04 <snadge> if google succeeds with this, it will be in part because everyone else failed
Aug 28 08:31:40 <snadge> by no means a small accomplishment regardless
Aug 28 08:33:58 <muthu> agree
Aug 28 08:34:03 <snadge> i shouldn't be this desperate for a phone that doesnt suck
Aug 28 08:34:31 <snadge> i have an old brick piece of crap.. simply because i refuse to purchase anything more modern until i can get a phone with android on it ;)
Aug 28 08:34:42 <muthu> me too
Aug 28 08:34:57 <muthu> snadge: where you from?
Aug 28 08:35:00 <snadge> maybe if iphone sucked half as much as it does.. i might be tempted to have one in the meantime
Aug 28 08:35:06 <Zohan> i have an iphone and a htc touch diamond and nokia n95
Aug 28 08:35:26 <snadge> its not like i cant afford an iphone.. i dont want to waste my money
Aug 28 08:35:33 <Zohan> but ill return them all today, except the touch diamond
Aug 28 08:35:55 <snadge> muthu: australia
Aug 28 08:36:28 <muthu> cool
Aug 28 08:37:15 <snadge> a mate of mine has a 3g iphone, and told me he paid $5 so he can run ssh on it
Aug 28 08:37:42 <snadge> that both saddened and amused me at the same time
Aug 28 08:37:46 <Acsia> gm
Aug 28 08:38:20 <snadge> google will give an entire phone operating system and api away for free
Aug 28 08:38:30 <snadge> but apple wants to charge you $5 for the privilege of running ssh ;)
Aug 28 08:38:55 <snadge> on a crappy phone that doesnt even have a keyboard hehe
Aug 28 08:39:16 <muthu> apple want to squeeze in every $$
Aug 28 08:39:31 <snadge> its not so much im against charging for software
Aug 28 08:39:40 <snadge> but openssh is free software
Aug 28 08:39:57 <snadge> sure someone had to package it for the iphone.. but so what
Aug 28 08:40:30 <gambler> snadge, syd?
Aug 28 08:40:37 <snadge> i work in brisbane, live on the gold coast
Aug 28 08:41:10 <gambler> train commuter?
Aug 28 08:41:21 <snadge> drive.. which reminds me.. its home time :P
Aug 28 08:41:54 <gambler> now that rush hour is over :p
Aug 28 08:42:36 <snadge> yeah.. i come it at about 10, 10:30 am.. and leave at 6/6:30
Aug 28 08:42:37 <snadge> :p
Aug 28 08:43:10 <snadge> cuts the commute time in half roughly
Aug 28 08:45:43 <umdk1d3> speaking of ssh for android
Aug 28 08:45:57 <umdk1d3> http://code.google.com/p/connectbot/ looks like its coming along well
Aug 28 08:46:08 <umdk1d3> theres a video demo with some sweet animations between consoles
Aug 28 08:46:56 <muthu> umdk1d3: is that yours?
Aug 28 09:19:45 <Zohan> sweet @ connectbot
Aug 28 09:57:37 <umdk1d3> hmm
Aug 28 09:58:34 <umdk1d3> so i have some Views in a ListView
Aug 28 09:59:06 <umdk1d3> when i setLongClickable() on an individual view, it no longer seems to be longclickable from the ListView's perspective
Aug 28 09:59:49 <umdk1d3> is the individual view not passing the onTouch()'es up the tree correctly to the parent ListView?
Aug 28 10:00:11 <umdk1d3> im trying to detect a gesture on a individual list items
Aug 28 10:00:30 <umdk1d3> and still have them clickable/long clickable from the overall ListView's point of view
Aug 28 10:32:28 <tric> hmm, was the current emu armv5b or armv4?
Aug 28 11:43:18 <hap> Hi. Has someone a link to an online article about how Google is linked to other companies and can t make decision alone
Aug 28 11:43:24 <hap> i can t put my hand on that again
Aug 28 11:45:24 <hap> oki found it
Aug 28 11:45:40 <hap> http://groups.google.com/group/android-discuss/msg/fa17b0e011a3b8db
Aug 28 11:46:44 <anno^da> after working 2h with Gimp I know why Photoshop coasts 1000€. I'm starting to hate it. :-)
Aug 28 11:46:56 <hap> anno^da: you bet...
Aug 28 11:48:03 <anno^da> :) bet ?
Aug 28 11:50:21 <anno^da> I'm giving Gimp a chance from one version to the next but it's as unusable as at the beginning. (just looking at it from the user point of view)
Aug 28 11:52:45 <tric> anno: what is missing?
Aug 28 11:54:53 <anno^da> well a lot of things are there but the whole workflow is pretty annoying. Just one example you select sth. Why do you get a big square around the selected area? And not just your real selection.
Aug 28 11:56:44 <anno^da> There are a lot of this small things that get annoying when you try to create sth. . For small things it is ok. Some small image corrections etc. but real work I dont know. :)
Aug 28 11:57:37 <anno^da> And yeah it is open source and yeah I know that it is a lot of work to get to the point where they are at the moment.
Aug 28 12:10:09 <tric> anno: and maybe those dev have another workflow ;)
Aug 28 12:10:16 <tric> usually thats the main problem.
Aug 28 12:46:47 <anno^da> tric: thats right. They often dont fit together with the people that use the applications. That is always a problem between someone who creates sth. (designer, layouter etc) and someone who designs the software.
Aug 28 12:58:23 <Dougie187> hey anno^da have you played with ubiquity yet>
Aug 28 12:58:25 <Dougie187> *?
Aug 28 13:16:58 <snadge> what is the web browser called?
Aug 28 13:17:27 <muthu> android web browser
Aug 28 13:28:06 <anno^da> Dougie187: Yeah I've played with it
Aug 28 13:28:16 <anno^da> It is quite nice for a alpha 0.1 version
Aug 28 13:28:17 <Dougie187> its pretty neat.
Aug 28 13:28:35 <Dougie187> i don't know how much I will use it, but im sure its really useful for some people
Aug 28 13:28:47 <Dougie187> i couldn't get map-these to work right.
Aug 28 13:29:16 <anno^da> I like this idea. I'm using some kind of the same idea with Quicksilve on OSX already.
Aug 28 13:29:46 <anno^da> Yeah well it has to be integrated with the normal desktop apps. (talking about the email features for example)
Aug 28 13:30:12 <anno^da> But searching something or getting a translation is pretty nice.
Aug 28 13:30:27 <anno^da> A command "map city to city" would be nice
Aug 28 13:30:39 <anno^da> But that should be easy to implement.
Aug 28 13:31:16 <Dougie187> yeah
Aug 28 13:31:25 <Dougie187> and they have that example for purchasing plane tickets
Aug 28 13:31:30 <Dougie187> that one is pretty cool looking.
Aug 28 13:31:34 <Dougie187> though i haven't tried that either.
Aug 28 13:32:06 <anno^da> Well thats just a mockup for the future :)
Aug 28 13:32:15 <anno^da> Thats how it should work in a few years
Aug 28 13:32:36 <Dougie187> oh. i didn't realize that. i thought it was a feature already implemented. but it will be cool later when they get it i guess.
Aug 28 13:32:41 <anno^da> just saying: "I want a ticket for the next Knicks game" :)
Aug 28 13:32:50 <anno^da> and the ticket gets booked
Aug 28 13:33:09 <Dougie187> yeah
Aug 28 13:33:25 <Dougie187> well today the touch diamond is supposed to be out on sprint.
Aug 28 13:34:33 <Dougie187> they are selling the touch for 99 bucks now.
Aug 28 13:34:34 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 28 13:34:38 <Dougie187> trying to ditch all of them
Aug 28 13:35:49 <anno^da> :-) Well I'm curious about the next rumours about the Dream. I don't believe any of theme since I can see the device on a real official picture. :)
Aug 28 13:36:01 <anno^da> with official spec.
Aug 28 13:36:04 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 28 13:36:09 <Dougie187> i didn't know any of that stuff had been out yet.
Aug 28 13:38:52 <anno^da> oh well there is a lot of stuff out but it is not official.  Some things will be true and some wont
Aug 28 13:39:24 <Dougie187> yeah but you said official picture and specs.
Aug 28 13:41:04 <anno^da> oh there is nothing official just wanted to say that I will not believe the rumours untill the day I can see official specs.
Aug 28 13:41:18 <Dougie187> oh ok
Aug 28 13:41:34 <Dougie187> i get it.
Aug 28 13:41:53 <anno^da> there are just the sketches from the FCC and one leaked sketch available atm.
Aug 28 13:42:03 <Dougie187> yeah
Aug 28 13:45:41 <Dougie187> it will be cool to see once it comes out though.
Aug 28 14:47:46 <jasta> yawn
Aug 28 14:50:09 <muthu> yo
Aug 28 15:05:50 <gambler> Does anyone know if if a client and server have a common parent (eg, both keys are signed by the same CA) does the server trust the client as a verified peer?
Aug 28 15:06:19 <gambler> In java terms the server hasnt seen the client before (the key is not in his trust store), and he has clientAuthentication enabled.
Aug 28 15:07:34 <gambler> Question #2 is, if anyone knows of a reasonable CA mgmt utility that can easily interact with java keystores, I'd love to hear about it.
Aug 28 15:08:37 <jasta> are you just asking a general question about this type of key-based authentication/encryption?
Aug 28 15:10:35 <gambler> I could easily test it, my real problem is dealing with the CA side of things. keytool cant sign CSRs
Aug 28 15:10:48 <gambler> openssl doesnt play nicely with keytool.
Aug 28 15:11:07 <gambler> actually openssl is fine but keytool is a bit restrictive
Aug 28 15:11:19 <jasta> the reason a certificate authority improves matters is because the client already has the CA public key, so no man-in-the-middle attack can possibly begin.
Aug 28 15:11:49 <jasta> so when the server says I am <X>, and <Y> agrees.  the client can check that <Y> truly agrees without fear of forgery from <Y>.
Aug 28 15:11:52 <gambler> right i get that part.
Aug 28 15:12:14 <jasta> the server trusting the client has nothing to do with it
Aug 28 15:12:29 <gambler> it does if your also trying to authenticate the client
Aug 28 15:12:46 <gambler> there are verified peers and unverified
Aug 28 15:17:31 <jasta> yeah but without a mutually trusted CA involved, there is no defense against MITM, for example.
Aug 28 15:18:32 <jasta> any place where a public key must be transmitted with no separate out-of-band verification, MITM is possible.
Aug 28 15:19:01 <jasta> so for places where MITM is possible, you had best have a healthy bit of skepticism built into your server
Aug 28 15:19:45 <jasta> also, "trust" should never be implicit based on how your users have authenticated.  for instance, you'd never want to have privilege elevation possible even after you know who the user is.
Aug 28 15:20:32 <jasta> but plenty of poorly thought out systems are vulnerbale to that.  somewhat recently a demonstration of this was put into motion by way of a web browser virus which hijacked authenticated sessions to try SQL injection attacks.
Aug 28 15:20:43 <jasta> the attack was hugely successful because of this bad assumption of what "trust" means.
Aug 28 15:21:13 <gambler> thx for those nuggest of wisdom jasta
Aug 28 15:21:21 <gambler> nuggets
Aug 28 15:21:33 <jasta> please don't patronize me.  i was only trying to be helpful.
Aug 28 15:21:47 <gambler> ok ty sir
Aug 28 15:22:09 <gambler> keytool sucks :p
Aug 28 15:23:26 <jasta> it's part of the JDK, what did you expect?
Aug 28 15:24:52 <gambler> i dunno. all i know is im testing my 3rd set of C.A. utilities and I really hate this non-corework fiddling
Aug 28 15:25:50 <jasta> i'm honestly surprised to find that you actually have a project going on.
Aug 28 15:26:11 <gambler> im not here for my health
Aug 28 15:26:18 <jasta> i mean, if you have no problem patronizing me, then i have no problem admitting what i think of your abilities.
Aug 28 15:26:52 <gambler> im the first one to admit that i am a crap sw engineer
Aug 28 15:28:48 <anno^da> Oh guys there is more than being a good or bad sw engineer. :-)
Aug 28 15:28:53 <gambler> though i am pleasently suprised at how nice some of the stuff ive been working on has come out
Aug 28 15:29:11 <jasta> perhaps it only seems nice.
Aug 28 15:29:29 <gambler> i am biased
Aug 28 15:29:29 <anno^da> well in the end the user decides :-)
Aug 28 15:29:50 <jasta> anno^da: hardly.  sometimes hackers get to decide :)
Aug 28 15:30:23 <gambler> my problem is I move at a snails pace due to over maximizing. I would give anything to be a satisficer
Aug 28 15:30:38 <anno^da> jasta: But to be honest if the users of my application (which I dont have) would be pleased with it I wouldnt care about some hacker blaming me.
Aug 28 15:31:54 <jasta> anno^da: i don't mean "blaming" you.  i mean defeating weak security measures to affect performance, reliability, etc.  or worse, stealing sensitive information from your users.
Aug 28 15:37:45 <gambler> jasta, can I get a postcard from ireland pls
Aug 28 15:38:03 <jasta> no, you cannot
Aug 28 15:39:43 <gambler> well im going to miss you when your gone from the internets
Aug 28 15:39:56 <gambler> :p
Aug 28 15:40:03 <jasta> god you are so annoying
Aug 28 15:41:37 <muthu> haha
Aug 28 15:41:46 <muthu> this channel will miss jasta
Aug 28 15:41:51 <muthu> when he's on vacation
Aug 28 15:42:33 <gambler> i predict traffic will drop 60%
Aug 28 15:42:43 <muthu> more than that
Aug 28 15:42:47 <jasta> intelligence, too.
Aug 28 15:43:57 <muthu> that'll shoot up!!
Aug 28 15:43:59 <muthu> hehe
Aug 28 15:44:08 <jasta> right, i'm sure you believe that.
Aug 28 15:44:32 <dmoffett> The asshole factor will go way down.
Aug 28 15:44:45 <gambler> ding we have a winer
Aug 28 15:44:48 <gambler> winner
Aug 28 15:48:27 <jasta> we're not here to be nice :)
Aug 28 15:48:48 <dmoffett> or an asshole
Aug 28 15:48:50 <anno^da> lol whats up here :-)
Aug 28 15:49:30 <gambler> the channel is giving jasta some tough love
Aug 28 15:50:05 <anno^da> cmon guys brace yourself. It is pretty absurd what you do here...
Aug 28 15:51:55 <anno^da> So I'm out here for a moment. That childish bullshit pisses me off.
Aug 28 15:52:39 <gambler> you might want to wait until i post a funny absurd video
Aug 28 15:53:03 <jasta> you mean disgusting and offensive?
Aug 28 15:58:47 <gambler> why you got so much sand in your vagina today jasta?
Aug 28 15:58:53 <gambler> btw I cant find anything good atm
Aug 28 16:07:50 <trigatch4> whattup folks
Aug 28 16:28:00 <anno^da> It is amazing how stupid some people can be. But ok /ignore should do it.
Aug 28 16:31:22 * jasta twiddles his thumbs hoping hackbod will someday get to his google groups questions
Aug 28 16:31:47 <muthu> jasta: his/her
Aug 28 16:32:26 <jasta> no, i am certain i'm male.
Aug 28 16:32:40 <muthu> lol
Aug 28 16:32:45 <muthu> sorry, my poor english again
Aug 28 16:33:20 <jasta> i was the subject in that sentence :)
Aug 28 16:35:58 <trigatch4> holler
Aug 28 16:36:18 <trigatch4> will google announce ADC winners already
Aug 28 16:36:20 <trigatch4> sheesh
Aug 28 16:36:26 <muthu> is it announced?
Aug 28 16:36:30 <jasta> yeah no kidding.  that's been like a month right?
Aug 28 16:36:41 <muthu> results expected anytime now..
Aug 28 16:38:50 <trigatch4> everything has always been expected "any time now"
Aug 28 16:38:57 <trigatch4> i grow impatient!
Aug 28 16:39:06 <trigatch4> too bad nobody cares haha
Aug 28 16:39:11 <muthu> haha
Aug 28 16:40:08 <trigatch4> muthu, jasta, do you guys run FF3?
Aug 28 16:40:43 <anno^da> well yeah I do
Aug 28 16:40:44 <jasta> firefox3?  i run ubuntu 8.04 at work so yes.
Aug 28 16:40:58 <muthu> FF2 keep reminding me
Aug 28 16:40:59 <jasta> but debain etch at home, so no :)
Aug 28 16:41:21 <muthu> but not yet, planning to upgrade anytime now
Aug 28 16:41:24 <jasta> morrildl: find anything out for me? :)
Aug 28 16:41:46 <jasta> trigatch4: i trust my distro to make all those types of decisions for me :)
Aug 28 16:42:23 <trigatch4> anyone familiar with NicEdit?
Aug 28 16:43:05 <trigatch4> copy/paste and stuff doesn't seem to work in FF3 and apparently its a security protection in FF3 but even the "patch" or fix via altering user.js doesn't seem to work
Aug 28 16:43:28 <trigatch4> effing pain in the butt cause i gotta use fck editor which is just heavier
Aug 28 16:44:03 <anno^da> copy/paste doesnt work? It works on Ubuntu 8.04 as well as under OSX for me.
Aug 28 16:44:03 <jasta> it probably isn't firefox's fault.  however the thing was designed is probably wrong
Aug 28 16:44:28 <jasta> err, that made no sense. i'm tired
Aug 28 16:44:35 <muthu> lol
Aug 28 16:44:41 <SanMehat> morning
Aug 28 16:46:11 <muthu> night
Aug 28 16:51:18 <trigatch4> firefox 3 disallows copy/paste for these editors apparently so that hidden divs with forms can't randomly paste whatever you have on your clipboard and send it over the interwebz to phisher
Aug 28 16:52:03 <trigatch4> its a flaw - some would say protection - in firefox 3... i guess a better editor might have a work around but given the nature it doesn't seem likely
Aug 28 16:52:23 <trigatch4> anyone know any lightweight editors similar to NicEdit... lighter than fck editor?
Aug 28 16:55:25 <zhobbs> morrildl: is an op, big announcement coming?
Aug 28 16:56:06 <anno^da> Does someone know if someone is developing an Open Sourc multi IM client for Android? (something like Adium or. Pidgin) Only XMPP would be nice as well.
Aug 28 16:56:24 <anno^da> haha zhobbs yeah he is up very early :-)
Aug 28 16:57:19 <anno^da> Because the integrated IM client seems not really valuable for me since I dont care about MSN or AIM.
Aug 28 17:02:16 <chouman82> anyone know much about the verifier on android?  i am running into verifyError
Aug 28 17:06:57 <muthu> zhobbs: is it coming?
Aug 28 17:07:08 <zhobbs> don't know
Aug 28 17:08:08 <anno^da> It is coming to start some rumours.
Aug 28 17:08:28 <muthu> the blogs will be busy today
Aug 28 17:09:26 * jasta raises an eyebrow
Aug 28 17:09:26 <muthu> anno^da: there were a few IM's in top 50
Aug 28 17:09:40 <jasta> muthu: none of which were or will be open source AFAIK.
Aug 28 17:10:00 <jasta> i doubt very much that any of the top 50 winners ever will be.  *leers at umdk1d3*
Aug 28 17:10:13 <anno^da> in the top 50 I must have went over them
Aug 28 17:10:23 <jasta> what?
Aug 28 17:11:21 <anno^da> I havent seen one simple multi messenger that is open source and I aggree with jasta that we wont see much open source apps from the top 50
Aug 28 17:12:15 <muthu> yeah, mostly the top 50 were closed
Aug 28 17:12:36 <jasta> muthu: not mostly, exclusively.
Aug 28 17:14:04 <anno^da> And I havent found one that does simple multi messaging
Aug 28 17:15:11 <anno^da> Location awareness would be a nice add on but I dont need it neccesarily
Aug 28 17:19:26 <jasta> anno^da: at present, the open source community seems very bored by Android.
Aug 28 17:21:03 <muthu> that's because android source is not open yet
Aug 28 17:21:09 <muthu> so hopefully things would change
Aug 28 17:23:02 <jasta> muthu: i think it's much more than that ;)
Aug 28 17:23:21 <jasta> but yes i also hope it changes.  i put a lot of stake in it changing.
Aug 28 17:23:39 <jasta> first we'll need to get rid of all the muthu's out there ;)
Aug 28 17:23:42 <SanMehat> ahh jasta is awake
Aug 28 17:23:48 <muthu> haha
Aug 28 17:24:01 <jasta> it's true :)
Aug 28 17:24:11 <muthu> i know, that's the sad part :)
Aug 28 17:24:17 <morrildl> I know this isn't what you guys are talking about, but: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/08/android-market-user-driven-content.html
Aug 28 17:24:30 <jasta> ohh, is that new?
Aug 28 17:24:38 <morrildl> jasta: yes
Aug 28 17:24:46 * jasta digs in
Aug 28 17:25:55 <jasta> lol, its shipping in beta? :)
Aug 28 17:25:57 <jasta> oh google! :)
Aug 28 17:27:22 <morrildl> jasta: is that like "O SNAP"?
Aug 28 17:27:28 <muthu> wow, the store!
Aug 28 17:27:33 <morrildl> muthu: !!
Aug 28 17:27:36 <morrildl> muthu: NO!
Aug 28 17:27:43 <jasta> ohh, see permissions listed in there
Aug 28 17:27:46 <morrildl> muthu: the /MARKET/
Aug 28 17:27:55 <morrildl> gotta run be back in a bit
Aug 28 17:27:57 <muthu> oh yeah, open market
Aug 28 17:28:03 <morrildl> ;)
Aug 28 17:28:08 <jasta> morrildl: i appreciate the clarification on unpaid applications.
Aug 28 17:28:10 <mikez5> Cool, my name is in one of the screenshots :-)
Aug 28 17:29:07 <jasta> so, am i reading this line right about "soon after launch"?  paid content won't be in the first version?  versioning won't be either?
Aug 28 17:29:43 <jasta> i hope that this is not for certain values of soon :)
Aug 28 17:31:48 <jasta> otherwise, excellent to see some stuff coming out of the android camp.  screenshots too, nice :)
Aug 28 17:32:57 <dmoffett> What do the icons along the top left mean?
Aug 28 17:33:09 <dmoffett> of the screen shots.
Aug 28 17:35:10 <f00f-> you have voice mail, you have email, and your printout is ready
Aug 28 17:36:22 <dmoffett> f00f: Good call.
Aug 28 17:36:46 <dmoffett> not sure about that last one though.
Aug 28 17:38:44 <krosaen> i think the last one means 'download complete' for a market app
Aug 28 17:39:27 <zhobbs> there needs to be some level of versioning support at launch, or will we just have to update all applications after the market is updated?
Aug 28 17:41:20 <chadkouse> zhobbs: what are you doing in here
Aug 28 17:41:38 <zhobbs> chadkouse: what are you doing in here?
Aug 28 17:41:48 <chadkouse> just got back from lunch... waiting on a conference call
Aug 28 17:41:52 <zhobbs> ahh
Aug 28 17:42:14 <chadkouse> shouldn't you be at a saki bar or something ?
Aug 28 17:42:20 <chadkouse> sake*
Aug 28 17:42:42 <zhobbs> no one speaks english here!
Aug 28 17:42:50 <chadkouse> maybe they speak engrish though!
Aug 28 17:42:56 <zhobbs> heh
Aug 28 17:43:12 <chadkouse> jared says "tell him to go get a shave and a haircut"
Aug 28 17:43:22 <muthu> haha
Aug 28 17:43:27 <zhobbs> hehe
Aug 28 17:43:36 <chadkouse> hehehe
Aug 28 17:44:14 <chadkouse> i'm just kind of shocked they allow IRC traffic behind the great firewall of china
Aug 28 17:44:53 <zhobbs> actually, taiwan is uncensored...and apparently somewhat sovereign
Aug 28 17:45:22 <tethridge> taiwan is not china.  :-)
Aug 28 17:45:29 <chadkouse> yeah....
Aug 28 17:45:51 <zhobbs> tethridge: even though the name of taiwan is "The Republic of China"
Aug 28 17:45:55 <morrildl> f00f-: LOL
Aug 28 17:46:06 <morrildl> f00f-: that rightmost notification icon is actually "your download is complete"
Aug 28 17:46:23 <morrildl> f00f-: but yes, I can see your point
Aug 28 17:59:56 <dmoffett> Tangible progress from Google is exciting, we have been through a really long dry spell with only rumors for motivation.
Aug 28 18:00:39 <muthu> wonder, when ADC2 is going to be...
Aug 28 18:00:51 <jasta> they said they will announce Q4.
Aug 28 18:01:00 <jasta> announce details anyway, i dont think the challenge will begin instantly
Aug 28 18:01:41 <muthu> jasta: right as always :))
Aug 28 18:03:23 <pawalls> oh come on.. like jasta really needs the ego inflation ;-)
Aug 28 18:04:59 <_Marvin_> nice android developers blog entry
Aug 28 18:06:23 <plusminus_> _Marvin_: ?
Aug 28 18:06:26 <zhobbs> yes, keep the updates flowing
Aug 28 18:06:37 <zhobbs> plusminus_: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/08/android-market-user-driven-content.html
Aug 28 18:06:42 <plusminus_> got it
Aug 28 18:08:41 <plusminus_> the last screenshot shows a "Text 2 Speec Library"
Aug 28 18:08:59 <romainguy_> ^^
Aug 28 18:09:56 <plusminus_> is it a dummy?
Aug 28 18:10:26 <romainguy_> no
Aug 28 18:10:32 <plusminus_> wohoooooooo
Aug 28 18:10:37 <chouman82> anyone know anything about the verifier on android?
Aug 28 18:10:44 <romainguy_> all the applications you see on the screenshots are working apps that we wrote
Aug 28 18:11:40 <EQU> i have a question. All of this application are using basici widgets ( TextView etc. )  for drawing ?
Aug 28 18:12:43 <chouman82> i have been running into VerifyError
Aug 28 18:12:53 <chouman82> and the verifier rejecting my classes
Aug 28 18:13:49 <plusminus_> romainguy_ how to interfere with the T2S-Lib ? Is there already sth in the new SDK (had no time to check it)
Aug 28 18:15:45 <jasta> pawalls: do you just lurk waiting to jab at me? ;)
Aug 28 18:16:14 <anno^da> zhobbs: I told you something will come today :-)
Aug 28 18:18:25 <romainguy_> plusminus_: there's nothing of the sort in the SDK
Aug 28 18:21:14 <EQU> romainguy: how ViewSwitcher works on real device ? I have two ListView with ~15 rows ( every row is drawn by self ). Switching beetwen them is not smooth.
Aug 28 18:21:46 <EQU> on emulator
Aug 28 18:22:46 <romainguy> too many views
Aug 28 18:23:05 <romainguy> and your emulator seems slower than a real device
Aug 28 18:23:36 <EQU> ok, which drawind cache will fix it ?
Aug 28 18:23:52 <EQU> AnimationChache or DrawCache  ?
Aug 28 18:24:08 <EQU> how do they works ?
Aug 28 18:24:10 <romainguy> the caches are enabled by default
Aug 28 18:24:52 <morrildl> jasta: pawalls is actually a Zerg, he burrows under the ground waiting for you to pass by
Aug 28 18:25:50 <EQU> romainguy: it's possible to program somthing better than ViewSwitcher ? how it works ?
Aug 28 18:26:05 <pawalls> jasta: of course.
Aug 28 18:26:10 <Dougie187> morrildl: hes a zerg lurker.
Aug 28 18:26:18 <EQU> romainguy: it makes a 2 bitmaps, a switch them ?
Aug 28 18:29:49 <EQU> romainguy: I think ListView is bad. I made fake ListView using LinearLayout with vertical gravity adn focus as a selected View. Using this fake i see more smooth and clear animation
Aug 28 18:31:18 <EQU> using ViewSwitcher...
Aug 28 18:35:06 <umdk1d3> YAY
Aug 28 18:35:13 <umdk1d3> details on market
Aug 28 18:41:11 <zhobbs> romainguy: have you seen the diggin video?  I thought the UI programmer did a pretty good job
Aug 28 18:42:04 <zhobbs> ( http://digginmobile.com/ )
Aug 28 18:44:59 <EQU> zhobbs: are they ussing basic widgets ?
Aug 28 18:45:20 <zhobbs> EQU: don't know what they're doing
Aug 28 18:45:43 <EQU> zhobbs: i think it is possible
Aug 28 18:45:43 <zhobbs> EQU: if they're using the built in stuff it's heavily customized
Aug 28 18:45:47 <muthu> diggin UI is great
Aug 28 18:46:07 <zhobbs> they will probably do well in ADC
Aug 28 18:50:50 <muthu> yeah, think so
Aug 28 18:51:00 <jasta> i like diggin's UI quite a bit.  i sent him a couple of messages back and forth about a few things in his implementation and stuff too
Aug 28 18:51:13 <muthu> nite fellas
Aug 28 18:51:26 <jasta> i don't know how practical it will be though since i can't really use it
Aug 28 18:51:49 <jasta> like for instance, his demo has very little music.  most people have a much bigger collection than that and wouldnt really appreciate always have to scroll through the entire list like that
Aug 28 18:52:19 <zhobbs> i'm not sure I understand the drawing feature
Aug 28 18:52:51 <zhobbs> I'm just impressed by the animation effects
Aug 28 18:53:43 <jasta> zhobbs: i think its to just make visual tags and apply them to music
Aug 28 18:53:51 <jasta> so you can sort your music by these arbitrary tags, rahter than playlists
Aug 28 18:53:52 <zhobbs> hm
Aug 28 18:54:18 <jasta> which is a pretty fun way to do it, i think, but actually it would be super lame to have to build all your playlists manually like that
Aug 28 18:54:23 <jasta> and on the phone exclusively.  eww ;)
Aug 28 18:54:43 <jasta> i'm sure there's loads of potential here, but from the demo it is not clear how must users can interact with it
Aug 28 18:55:13 <jasta> how most*
Aug 28 18:55:26 <zhobbs> I'd rather just name my playlists with text (handset or pc)
Aug 28 18:55:41 <zhobbs> but I'm not really the artist type
Aug 28 18:55:45 <jasta> right, i think for me it's more that i'd rather make playlists on a computer
Aug 28 18:55:46 <EQU> maybe they will do karaoke :)
Aug 28 18:56:00 <jasta> i mean, i like having the option to construct them/manipulate them on the phone, but that certainly shouldnt be the main way.
Aug 28 18:56:07 <zhobbs> EQU: that's what TuneWiki is for!
Aug 28 18:57:22 <anno^da> I'm with jasta in that point. It doesnt make much sense to create the playlist on the mobile device. (Looking at a library with more than 6000 songs)
Aug 28 18:58:02 <zhobbs> anno^da: it's not bad to make playlists if you can add entire artists/albums with one long click
Aug 28 18:58:24 <anno^da> Well the making is not that bad
Aug 28 18:58:37 <anno^da> But browsing through your library will be
Aug 28 18:59:36 <anno^da> But even more I'd like to see flac support :). I'd like to get my mini amp connected to the phone and not convert a lot of my library.
Aug 28 18:59:53 <anno^da> +to some lossy format
Aug 28 19:00:07 <zhobbs> anno^da: how much storage do you expect?  or are you talking streaming remote ?
Aug 28 19:00:27 <anno^da> Well I'm expecting a lot of storage in future devices.
Aug 28 19:00:52 <anno^da> Not in the first devices but later on therte will be a lot of storage.
Aug 28 19:00:59 <zhobbs> anno^da: that'd be nice
Aug 28 19:01:07 <anno^da> I'm used to mobile players with 60GB+ :)
Aug 28 19:01:19 <SanMehat> SanDisk should have their 16 gig microSDHC cards out soon but thats not quite 60 :)
Aug 28 19:01:28 <anno^da> (I know it is not realistic for the beginning )
Aug 28 19:01:45 <anno^da> SanMehat: Yeah not in the near future :)
Aug 28 19:03:08 <anno^da> But even browsing through 16GB of music isnt that funny
Aug 28 19:04:21 <zhobbs> anno^da: if you're just browsing artists it's not that bad...ListViews can fling pretty far
Aug 28 19:05:21 <anno^da> Yeah ok.
Aug 28 19:06:45 <anno^da> I'm curious about the battery life. Playing music, GPS, wifi, UMTS etc.
Aug 28 19:07:26 <anno^da> I'd like to see some solar panel on devices in the future. :)
Aug 28 19:09:10 <plusminus_> what turned MapPoint into in 0.9 ?
Aug 28 19:09:25 <zhobbs> GeoPoint?
Aug 28 20:04:13 <anno^da> oh the interface doesnt get any good feedback in the comments you can read all along the news sites  that write something about the app store.
Aug 28 20:09:16 <trigatch4> OH MY GOD!
Aug 28 20:09:28 <trigatch4> who saw the Android Market post?
Aug 28 20:09:55 <anno^da> ?
Aug 28 20:10:01 <Dougie187> ome android market post?
Aug 28 20:10:06 <Dougie187> omg*
Aug 28 20:11:09 <jasta> trigatch4: old news.
Aug 28 20:11:19 <trigatch4> hahaha
Aug 28 20:11:22 <trigatch4> i fell asleep
Aug 28 20:11:24 <trigatch4> just read it
Aug 28 20:11:47 <trigatch4> old news as in earlier today? or assumed when android was announced?
Aug 28 20:11:59 <umdk1d3> somewhat assumed, but now we have details
Aug 28 20:12:12 <trigatch4> i'm just incredibly, incredibly happy they aren't going to suffocate the development comxmunity like the iPhone App Store has
Aug 28 20:12:18 <trigatch4> at least, it sounds like they won't based on the blog post
Aug 28 20:12:27 * umdk1d3 actually goes to read
Aug 28 20:12:35 <trigatch4> i was somewhat worried about that
Aug 28 20:13:15 <trigatch4> but i think security and malicious applications needs to be addressed... which is what I'm sure they're working on... any thoughts on that morrildl?
Aug 28 20:13:50 <umdk1d3> there is that one screenshot that handles permission-granting
Aug 28 20:14:03 <umdk1d3> and i assume there is a "report this app" option
Aug 28 20:14:30 <anno^da> Why should they. In the desktop space you dont have that either.
Aug 28 20:14:47 <anno^da> You have millions of download sites
Aug 28 20:15:01 <anno^da> And no one is protecting you from the evil :-)
Aug 28 20:17:53 <anno^da> A rating system is all you need. I dont like it if someone tries me to protect from everything and everyone.
Aug 28 20:18:07 <anno^da> tries to protect ... :-)
Aug 28 20:18:19 <morrildl> yeah there will be various security mechanisms in place
Aug 28 20:18:32 <morrildl> the most important of which is: make sure the OS is secure by design :)
Aug 28 20:18:42 <morrildl> but there are other mechanism as well
Aug 28 20:19:00 <Dougie187> is there symantec for your phone?
Aug 28 20:19:10 <Dougie187> or ClamAV.
Aug 28 20:19:14 <anno^da> lol
Aug 28 20:19:18 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 28 20:19:20 <anno^da> help
Aug 28 20:19:23 <anno^da> :)
Aug 28 20:21:40 <anno^da> morrildl: How will they look like except the OS security ?
Aug 28 20:59:08 <tomgibara> The application installer should allow a user to deny one or more permissions to an app, but still let them install it.
Aug 28 21:00:10 <f00f-> i disagree tomigabra, sinceusers wont know about permissions and some apps will horribly fail if requested perms arent given since error handling needs to be intense
Aug 28 21:00:33 <tomgibara> The manifest should probably allow an application to mark a permission as optional, suggested and necessary
Aug 28 21:00:46 <f00f-> perhaps
Aug 28 21:00:56 <tomgibara> f00f-: Users are already being exposed to the permission lists
Aug 28 21:01:10 <f00f-> so i saw and i'm thinking is it proper
Aug 28 21:01:18 <f00f-> probably, as long as the language is clear and simple
Aug 28 21:01:28 <tomgibara> None of my apps assume they have any permission
Aug 28 21:02:19 <tomgibara> That is, they fail as gracefully as they can in the absence of any permission so long as it's not completely necessary to the app (like the new NETWORK one)
Aug 28 21:06:19 <f00f-> right
Aug 28 21:10:23 <morrildl> f00f-: yes, the explicit decision is not to push too much choice onto users, because the more choice, the more complex repercussions you have to think about.  The worst case is that the app is coded poorly and crashes or something for certain configurations of permission grants
Aug 28 21:11:03 <morrildl> We don't want to see threads like "Application XYZ crashed, it sucks." "No no, you just have to not deny it the EAT_CAKE permission."
Aug 28 21:12:50 <f00f-> i was just thinking "Development tools" and maybe "System tools" should have a warning in red... most users will NEVER install apps that need those perms
Aug 28 21:12:56 <f00f-> morrildl: right
Aug 28 21:13:13 <tomgibara> morrildl: I can see that argument, but its extreme conclusion (which will probably occur) is that as an application grows within its niche to interact nicely with all the apps on your phone, you will be left with lots of the most popular apps requesting every permission. Then you end up rendering the whole concept a waste of time.
Aug 28 21:13:35 <f00f-> even if users are given choice, most blindly just Next-Next-Next it away or do Accept All or equivalent
Aug 28 21:17:58 <tomgibara> I'm basically predicting that most apps will fundamentally require a small number of permissions, and that many (especially of the successful ones) will evolve to require lots of permissions that aren't fundamental, but useful.
Aug 28 21:19:17 <tomgibara> I would go as far as to say that the permissions system will become totally unworkable without giving users the option to refuse certain permissions to applications and still install them.
Aug 28 21:21:02 <umdk1d4> lol @ EAT_CAKE
Aug 28 21:21:31 <morrildl> umdk1d4: contrary to popular belief, the cake is NOT a lie.
Aug 28 21:22:14 <umdk1d4> that game was awesome  ;)  now if only they would port it to android
Aug 28 21:29:45 <dmoffett> Based on the top apps at the iTunes store permissions will not be a big problem.  Three of the top paid apps are ambience apps.  Not sure what this says about iPhone users.  :-)
Aug 28 21:31:49 <anno^da> I will do some of this apps as well :-)
Aug 28 21:33:58 <tomgibara> morrildl: I think the question of application permissions is very important. Developers need clarification on the semantics of <uses-permissions>.
Aug 28 21:34:30 <tomgibara> Does it mean that an application demands the permission to run? or requests it? There's a huge difference for the developer.
Aug 28 21:35:02 <morrildl> tomgibara: well there's not much to clarify.  All permissions are enforced at installation time
Aug 28 21:35:10 <morrildl> they are enforced as a set
Aug 28 21:35:18 <morrildl> if the user doesn't grant permission, the app is not installed
Aug 28 21:35:25 <tomgibara> okay
Aug 28 21:35:40 <morrildl> the Market will parse out <uses-permission>s from the Manifest in the .apk and use that in the UI that you see
Aug 28 21:36:02 <morrildl> Are those the details you were looking for?
Aug 28 21:36:18 <tomgibara> That is not stated at all in the documentation
Aug 28 21:36:22 <morrildl> hmm
Aug 28 21:36:28 <morrildl> okay then that is a docs bug :)
Aug 28 21:36:39 * morrildl goes to enter it
Aug 28 21:36:43 <tomgibara> What I mean is that it's silent on that question
Aug 28 21:36:54 <morrildl> yeah that's still a docs bug :)
Aug 28 21:37:38 * umdk1d4 wonders
Aug 28 21:37:45 <tomgibara> From the docs: At application install time, permissions requested by the application are granted to it by the package installer, based on checks with trusted authorities and interaction with the user.
Aug 28 21:37:54 <morrildl> tomgibara: ahhhhhhhhhh yes
Aug 28 21:37:56 <morrildl> that
Aug 28 21:38:12 <morrildl> yeah the hedge there was b/c we weren't sure if there would be a sort of plug-in API for "security providers"
Aug 28 21:38:34 <morrildl> like, say, your employer installs a component that prevents the user from granting like contact book permissions or something
Aug 28 21:38:45 <morrildl> there is no such API in 1.0 so we need to update that to remove the hedge
Aug 28 21:39:07 <tomgibara> and strengthen "granted" to something like "granted as a set"
Aug 28 21:39:15 <umdk1d4> s/employer/verizon/g  OHSNAP
Aug 28 21:39:22 <tomgibara> I still think it's a bad mistake though
Aug 28 21:43:13 <romainguy_> tomgibara: fine grained permission grant is a pain in the *** for apps developers though
Aug 28 21:43:18 <tomgibara> It creates a stupid situation where developers must weigh-up adding a feature against the security concerns of a possibly small set of their users, without any sensible way of resolving the problem.
Aug 28 21:43:20 <romainguy_> I remember using this with Java WebStart
Aug 28 21:43:50 <tomgibara> romainguy_: I am sensible to the counter problem too
Aug 28 21:44:17 <romainguy_> at least there's no way for an app to request ALL permissions in one line :)
Aug 28 21:44:21 * romainguy_ slaps Java WebStart
Aug 28 21:45:13 <tomgibara> Sadly, a natural inheritance from Java's desktop traditions
Aug 28 21:47:21 <tomgibara> The situation I can forsee is that something like a game developer might think it's great if it uses my contacts to make it easier to play with friends, and I as a user I think I'd love to install a game for my commute to work, but I don't want to risk exposing business contacts to a game
Aug 28 21:49:55 <tomgibara> The game developer can only drop the feature, lose sensitive business users, or ship two versions - an option that naturally becomes very problematic
Aug 28 22:11:34 <gambler> trigatch4, try tinyMCE if your still looking
Aug 28 22:12:23 <trigatch4> thanks gambler, i'll give that a whirl. off to the grocery store for now.. bbl
Aug 28 22:40:01 <morrildl> http://code.google.com/android/adc_gallery/
Aug 28 22:40:46 <morrildl> http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/08/presenting-winners-of-android-developer.html
Aug 28 22:42:04 <jasta> wow, really getting it together today huh?
Aug 28 22:42:20 <morrildl> jasta: well, we'd wanted to spread these out over a couple days, but hey
Aug 28 22:42:29 <morrildl> holiday weekend and whatnot
Aug 28 22:44:31 <f00f-> nice !!!
Aug 28 22:45:30 <morrildl> ...and like /that/, I'm gone.
Aug 28 22:45:41 <morrildl> see y'all next week, after the US holiday weekend :)
Aug 28 22:45:57 <f00f-> cheers
Aug 28 22:46:43 <dmoffett> enjoy
Aug 28 22:47:14 <jasta> i feel like i haven't even heard of some of these?
Aug 28 22:47:22 <jasta> did a lot of them change names or something?
Aug 28 22:47:26 <f00f-> many did
Aug 28 22:47:40 <f00f-> are there 50 on that page?
Aug 28 22:47:58 <jasta> cab4me looks neat, but i still wonder where in the hell it gets its data
Aug 28 22:48:51 <f00f-> lol
Aug 28 22:48:55 <f00f-> 2 bar code apps in the top 10
Aug 28 22:48:58 <dmoffett> f00f u were in the adc final right?
Aug 28 22:49:08 <f00f-> yeah non-winners
Aug 28 22:49:15 <f00f-> bottom of the page
Aug 28 22:49:18 <f00f-> VERY bottom lol
Aug 28 22:49:21 <jasta> that sucks :\
Aug 28 22:49:32 <jasta> but i'm not surprised given the conversation we had earlier.
Aug 28 22:49:38 <f00f-> me neither
Aug 28 22:49:41 <dmoffett> hey you should be proud.  A lot of us are on the side lines.  :-)
Aug 28 22:49:43 <jasta> Google flexing its muscle a little bit...
Aug 28 22:49:47 <f00f-> data is what is our big struggle :P
Aug 28 22:49:59 <f00f-> yeah, well i'm so glad we have a good community
Aug 28 22:50:09 <jasta> which is also why i cant figure out how cab4me works
Aug 28 22:50:14 <jasta> if it works great, that is a HUGE service
Aug 28 22:50:16 <dmoffett> besides the real judge is the market.
Aug 28 22:50:23 <jasta> but i dont understand how it will.
Aug 28 22:50:45 <jasta> yeah wait a minute, what the hell.  two bar code apps in the top slot?
Aug 28 22:51:02 <f00f-> also 7 judges total ;P
Aug 28 22:51:08 <dmoffett> Really?  I was just in Chicago and getting a taxi is easy but I don't spend much time in the city...
Aug 28 22:51:54 <jasta> dmoffett: well, it would be nice to be able to call one then go wait outside and try to snag one that drives by
Aug 28 22:51:58 <jasta> at lesat you know one will get there at some point
Aug 28 22:52:01 <Dougie187> damn. thats cool to see the apps
Aug 28 22:52:05 <dmoffett> I see.
Aug 28 22:52:08 <Dougie187> f00f-: did you win?
Aug 28 22:52:22 <_avatar> re
Aug 28 22:52:22 <jasta> ohh, click on the app
Aug 28 22:52:23 <f00f-> nope
Aug 28 22:52:25 <jasta> it talks lots more about them
Aug 28 22:52:34 <_avatar> er, wrong window, sorry ;)
Aug 28 22:52:43 <f00f-> man some of these winners are really polished
Aug 28 22:52:55 <_avatar> yeah, there are some really impressive UI's in there
Aug 28 22:53:02 <gambler> f00f-, which one is yours?
Aug 28 22:53:16 <f00f-> gambler: PedNav
Aug 28 22:53:50 <gambler> so you solved the TSP? :p
Aug 28 22:54:07 <dmoffett> ecorio is the one I don't really understand?
Aug 28 22:54:08 <f00f-> TSP ?
Aug 28 22:54:15 <gambler> travelling salesman problem
Aug 28 22:54:20 <f00f-> hahahah
Aug 28 22:54:26 <f00f-> we solved it for round 1
Aug 28 22:54:32 <f00f-> but it was too specific so we genericized it
Aug 28 22:54:52 <gambler> nice
Aug 28 22:55:18 <f00f-> ok so jasta question for you
Aug 28 22:55:22 <jasta> yes?
Aug 28 22:55:25 <f00f-> which ones of the top 20 would YOU install on your device :)
Aug 28 22:55:41 <jasta> well, i thought jeffrey's app was cool, but now since there are two that do exactly the same thing i dont know
Aug 28 22:55:46 <jasta> and if the taxi app works, i'll use that
Aug 28 22:56:30 <Dougie187> i don't really see the point of the taxi one, though i haven't read it yet. but it seems like Googling taxi's near...
Aug 28 22:57:00 <jasta> i thought it would let you call them to your location automagically?
Aug 28 22:58:08 <dmoffett> Locale seems like a very simple idea that would be useful.
Aug 28 22:59:16 <jasta> yes, i like Locale
Aug 28 22:59:19 <jasta> i think that would be cool too
Aug 28 22:59:24 <tomgibara> dmoffett: I raised on this channel, when the 50 were first announced that Locale's simple idea is actually patented - probably the reason you haven't seen it on a phone
Aug 28 22:59:42 <dmoffett> ouch
Aug 28 23:00:00 * jasta still wonders how TuneWiki is not a copyright violation.
Aug 28 23:00:01 <dmoffett> Guess they will have to just spend the 250k in Vegas.  :-)
Aug 28 23:00:05 <tomgibara> It's a problem with the competition - Google don't really have a way of ensuring that IP issues are addressed
Aug 28 23:00:25 * tomgibara Tom wonders the same thing
Aug 28 23:00:42 <tomgibara> urgh tired
Aug 28 23:00:48 <jasta> i talked briefly with the TuneWiki guy about this, and he just simply assured me it was without any justification
Aug 28 23:01:09 <jasta> maybe it's just because the "big dogs" haven't sat up and taken notice yet.  the shut stuff like that down all the time.
Aug 28 23:01:31 <tomgibara> incidentally it's IBM who own the patent, so they can enforce it if they want to
Aug 28 23:01:42 <jasta> i always thought the legal implication was publicly discussed by Apple a while back and why the iPod and junk never had those features centralized for the user
Aug 28 23:01:46 <Dougie187> wtf... this one sounds like rape waiting to happen. PhoneBook 2.0 " Ideally suited for teenagers willing to share their mood and location"
Aug 28 23:02:04 <jasta> Dougie187: yeah, an open letter to parents:
Aug 28 23:02:06 <f00f-> HAHA
Aug 28 23:02:08 <Dougie187> granted, this is just from the little blurb. i didnt read anything else.
Aug 28 23:02:09 <dmoffett> The big guys can shut you down just by the weight of their lawyers.  They don't even havve to be right.
Aug 28 23:02:10 <jasta> "Do NOT buy your child an Android phone!"
Aug 28 23:02:27 <jasta> dmoffett: yeah, but it helps when they are. :)
Aug 28 23:02:32 <jasta> dmoffett: it costs less.
Aug 28 23:02:50 <dmoffett> quite true.
Aug 28 23:02:55 <Dougie187> i dont get the point i guess. i just read that and though "Teenage pregnancy rate THROUGH THE ROOF!"
Aug 28 23:02:57 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 28 23:03:03 <tomgibara> I wouldn't anyway, there's no way of limiting permissions on what your child can install or even visit on the browers
Aug 28 23:03:20 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 28 23:03:28 <Dougie187> Thats where Electric Fence comes in!
Aug 28 23:03:30 <Dougie187> Right Jasta?
Aug 28 23:03:37 <jasta> yes, god damnit.
Aug 28 23:03:43 <jasta> somebody write that, it would be a smash hit :)
Aug 28 23:03:43 <Dougie187> if i ever get around to it...
Aug 28 23:03:51 <tomgibara> Electric Fence?
Aug 28 23:04:06 <Dougie187> yeah. its the app im supposed to be working on.
Aug 28 23:04:13 <jasta> tomgibara: i had this idea a while back to let you specify parameters of your connection and/or parental control limits
Aug 28 23:04:19 <jasta> and the phone would "zap" you when you near or hit those limits.
Aug 28 23:04:24 <jasta> like text message, data usage, voice minutes...
Aug 28 23:04:36 <dmoffett> The virus and anti virus programs are sure to make money as well.
Aug 28 23:04:41 <jasta> and could do things like warn you after you end a call "Hey deadbeat, that call just cost you $4.95!"
Aug 28 23:04:56 <Dougie187> or warn you before you make a call
Aug 28 23:05:00 <dmoffett> that is a good idea.
Aug 28 23:05:03 <Dougie187> and say "Hey you don't have any minutes left"
Aug 28 23:05:09 <tomgibara> Nice idea, couldn't work on Android though :(
Aug 28 23:05:10 <jasta> and i think "Electric Fence" is a good name for it.
Aug 28 23:05:18 <dmoffett> I need that for my wife and her credit card.
Aug 28 23:05:18 <Dougie187> and you could make hard limits. like for your kids.
Aug 28 23:05:44 <jasta> also, i had an idea to let you make secret contacts and automatically ignore incoming calls/text messages from them, and automatically remove outgoing communication from the logs
Aug 28 23:05:53 <jasta> with a special gesture to open up the app and get access to those things
Aug 28 23:05:57 <Dougie187> yeah but thats a different prog.
Aug 28 23:06:06 <jasta> yeah but im just brain dumping :)
Aug 28 23:06:12 <Dougie187> thats the "hey i wanna hang out with my ex girlfriend" creepy app
Aug 28 23:06:22 <tomgibara> I recall that one, for cheating spouses wasn't it?
Aug 28 23:06:35 <Dougie187> heh.
Aug 28 23:06:37 <Dougie187> for jasta you mean.
Aug 28 23:06:40 <jasta> it's for whatever you want it for
Aug 28 23:06:51 <jasta> i would use it to hide the random drunk dials from my ex-girlfriend
Aug 28 23:07:00 <gambler> dmoffett, good luck with that
Aug 28 23:07:01 <jasta> but then still keep a log of them, for my own record ;)
Aug 28 23:07:26 <tomgibara> :) Not something I would want to log, but each to his own
Aug 28 23:07:59 <Dougie187> yeah i wouldn't want to log it either.
Aug 28 23:08:28 <tomgibara> I think the competition did produce a lot of excellent apps and everyone should be commended for their effort
Aug 28 23:09:00 <Dougie187> are you in there tomgibara?
Aug 28 23:09:07 <gambler> how many apps were submitted total? I imagine it was <100 making this a very +EV contest
Aug 28 23:09:13 <Dougie187> ...
Aug 28 23:09:17 <tomgibara> Dougie187: I helped out a little on Cooking Capsules
Aug 28 23:09:22 <Dougie187> gambler: have you been around for very long?
Aug 28 23:09:30 <Dougie187> Oh, so your one of muthu's buddies?
Aug 28 23:09:58 <gambler> Dougie187, a little while
Aug 28 23:10:17 <Dougie187> gambler: here this is for you. http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/05/challenge-in-more-than-one-way.html
Aug 28 23:10:47 <tomgibara> Dougie187: Your question made me pause, I've never used the word buddy to describe anyone.
Aug 28 23:11:00 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 28 23:11:08 <gambler> wow
Aug 28 23:11:21 <Dougie187> like you want to know what buddy means? or you just didn't get it at first?
Aug 28 23:11:27 <tomgibara> I'm English, "acquaintance" is the word the came immediately to mind
Aug 28 23:11:31 <Dougie187> hah
Aug 28 23:11:34 <Dougie187> not friend i take it?
Aug 28 23:12:17 <tomgibara> Well, I'm hesitating to answer, because to Americans this will sound like a snub - which it isn't, but no
Aug 28 23:12:30 <tomgibara> Only because I reserve the word friend for true friends
Aug 28 23:12:54 <Dougie187> so your friend is what the ladies would call. "BF"
Aug 28 23:12:57 <Dougie187> "BFF"*
Aug 28 23:13:25 <Dougie187> either way.
Aug 28 23:13:32 <tomgibara> Perhaps, but I've never knowingly met a woman who used the expression
Aug 28 23:13:37 <Dougie187> hes just someone you know then. and you were helping him.
Aug 28 23:13:54 <f00f-> a buddy
Aug 28 23:13:55 <f00f->  :)
Aug 28 23:13:59 <tomgibara> It's slightly more than that :)
Aug 28 23:14:03 <Dougie187> yeah.
Aug 28 23:14:05 <Dougie187> hes your buddy.
Aug 28 23:14:18 <Dougie187> buddy is less then a friend.
Aug 28 23:14:34 <Dougie187> than*
Aug 28 23:14:48 <f00f-> city slikkers looks/seems cool
Aug 28 23:15:00 <f00f-> as long as it's a smooth and quick UI
Aug 28 23:15:01 <tomgibara> Okay, well, I'll be educated by your superior understanding of American English and say Muthu's my buddy
Aug 28 23:15:22 <Dougie187> a lot of the pictures are good.
Aug 28 23:15:23 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 28 23:15:29 <gambler> what does cooking capsules do that has to do with mobility
Aug 28 23:15:54 <Dougie187> its mobile shopping lists!
Aug 28 23:16:02 <tomgibara> gambler: That strikes me as a slighly odd question
Aug 28 23:16:03 <Dougie187> and mobile cooking shows!
Aug 28 23:16:10 <Dougie187> and its on a mobile phone.
Aug 28 23:16:15 <tomgibara> Yes, it's more media focused
Aug 28 23:16:19 <Dougie187> all signs point to mobility.
Aug 28 23:16:22 <gambler> ah I just saw the shopping list part. That makes sense
Aug 28 23:16:27 <f00f-> i love the concept of the Cooking Capsules app, but not sure how consumers will react to it
Aug 28 23:16:42 <tomgibara> "Watch, Shop and Make" is the tagline
Aug 28 23:16:45 <Dougie187> well. i mean, you have to hook your phone up to a printer to use it. and you have to hard line it.. and plug it in...
Aug 28 23:16:46 <Dougie187> but still..
Aug 28 23:16:50 <Dougie187> (j/k)
Aug 28 23:16:55 <f00f-> printer... lol
Aug 28 23:17:05 <Dougie187> heh
Aug 28 23:17:09 <Dougie187> thats how you get the shopping list!
Aug 28 23:17:11 <tomgibara> See a cooking show, buy the ingredients, follow the steps
Aug 28 23:17:11 <dmoffett> I guess they need to add that icon.
Aug 28 23:17:54 <tomgibara> I personally think Cooking Capsules is the best app idea on that list, and probably the only one I would install onto my phone.
Aug 28 23:18:06 <Dougie187> i don't
Aug 28 23:18:08 <f00f-> lol
Aug 28 23:18:17 <Dougie187> i might install it. but i don't know how useful it would be for me.
Aug 28 23:18:26 <tomgibara> Naturally, everyone will have different personal views
Aug 28 23:18:30 <dmoffett> On the iPhone the app I use most outside of normal mobile apps is RottenTomatoes app.
Aug 28 23:18:37 <gambler> Id install it on my wife or girlfriends phone :p
Aug 28 23:18:39 <jasta> dmoffett: whats that?
Aug 28 23:18:55 <dmoffett> rates movies and dvs.
Aug 28 23:18:59 <dmoffett> dvds.
Aug 28 23:19:00 <Dougie187> i would give diggin a try
Aug 28 23:19:15 <Dougie187> and the bar code ones might be useful at some point too. but i dont know how much i would use them.
Aug 28 23:19:27 <tomgibara> I do most of the cooking for our family, so that's one reason it appeals
Aug 28 23:19:55 <f00f-> perhaps the most useful app is Locale, i think
Aug 28 23:20:06 <f00f-> since i change my ring profile many times a day
Aug 28 23:20:06 <tomgibara> I'm concious that most of the channel members here will be younger than me - I think Cooking Capsules appeals to a very wide audience
Aug 28 23:20:14 <f00f-> sleep, office, out
Aug 28 23:20:24 <f00f-> would be nice to automatically do it
Aug 28 23:20:27 <Dougie187> true. that would be really useful
Aug 28 23:20:39 <Dougie187> then i don't need to have my phone on silent all the time.
Aug 28 23:20:49 <tomgibara> Except, presumably you need GPS on
Aug 28 23:20:51 <dmoffett> Locale is the one app I am ashamed I did not think of.  So simple so useful.
Aug 28 23:21:08 <f00f-> yeah although even Cell ID would be good enough usually
Aug 28 23:21:32 <tomgibara> How much battery power does that consume?
Aug 28 23:21:40 <tomgibara> Trangulation I mean
Aug 28 23:22:00 <Dougie187> i wouldn't think too terribly much.
Aug 28 23:22:01 <f00f-> far less than GPS
Aug 28 23:22:03 <jasta> dmoffett: my friend wrote that for Symbian s60 for his undergrad project.
Aug 28 23:22:05 <Dougie187> especially if done efficiently.
Aug 28 23:22:09 <jasta> dmoffett: exactly Locale. ;)
Aug 28 23:22:32 <f00f-> just get nearby cell towers' LAC/CID info and signal strength, send to a server and get back a location with a degree of accuuracy
Aug 28 23:23:27 <tomgibara> I'm interested to see of how well any of the location based apps will work in practice
Aug 28 23:24:10 <dmoffett> f00f the accuracy of cell tower triangulation on the iPHone is not really good enough for Locale imo.
Aug 28 23:24:35 <tomgibara> Failure rates for ad-hoc locational devices (not specicalized sat-navs) are high in my limited experience
Aug 28 23:24:39 <f00f-> well it depends really
Aug 28 23:24:53 <f00f-> how you set your Locale triggers
Aug 28 23:24:56 <f00f-> if they are spread apart
Aug 28 23:25:01 <f00f-> then a 5 mile radius might not matter at all
Aug 28 23:25:12 <f00f-> Cell ID can give you several hundredmeters to few km
Aug 28 23:25:14 <dmoffett> It would be worse if Locale turned your phone off/on  at the wrong times.
Aug 28 23:25:21 <f00f-> ya :D
Aug 28 23:25:53 <f00f-> tbh many of these apps can be consumed and combined
Aug 28 23:26:02 <f00f-> especially the LBS ones
Aug 28 23:27:40 <tomgibara> f00f-: The problem is that it will only take one or two missed calls for many users to ditch a Locale-like app
Aug 28 23:27:50 <f00f-> yeah
Aug 28 23:28:02 <f00f-> so i hope the top 20 polish them with a good chemical
Aug 28 23:28:16 <Dougie187> well you know some of them are done.
Aug 28 23:28:17 <f00f-> and i'm sure they will
Aug 28 23:28:37 <f00f-> practice might be a bit different
Aug 28 23:28:39 <Dougie187> the one's that didn't deserve to win, they are just going to take their money and run.
Aug 28 23:29:48 <gambler> what will the GPS resolution be like? Ive heard the GPS on the Freerunner can have a 50M error
Aug 28 23:30:13 <dmoffett> One thing a few of have noticed from the iTunes store is simple apps and games seem to be the most popular.  It will be interesting to compare the winners to the apps that win over the market.
Aug 28 23:30:58 <Dougie187> true.
Aug 28 23:31:12 <Dougie187> but i think these apps are going to get a decent amount of usage, even if they end up sucking.
Aug 28 23:31:20 <Dougie187> just because they won't the first comp
Aug 28 23:31:24 <Dougie187> won*
Aug 28 23:31:57 <dmoffett> Some of the apps have a chicken and egg problem.
Aug 28 23:32:09 <Dougie187> yeah
Aug 28 23:32:19 <Dougie187> i'll be intersted to see how they turn out.
Aug 28 23:33:29 <tomgibara> dmoffett: Being winners helps them a lot with that
Aug 28 23:34:04 <dmoffett> Could be.
Aug 28 23:44:31 <trigatch4> ADC Round 1 winners announced?!??!???!?!
Aug 28 23:44:50 <trigatch4> http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/08/presenting-winners-of-android-developer.html
Aug 28 23:45:01 <trigatch4> am i late again?
Aug 28 23:45:04 <dmoffett> yes
Aug 28 23:45:29 <gambler> ancient news internet time :)
Aug 28 23:47:19 <Dougie187> trigatch4: you tend to be late on everything.
Aug 28 23:47:20 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 28 23:47:24 <Dougie187> you should just assume you are late.
Aug 28 23:47:32 <trigatch4> son of a BITCH
Aug 28 23:47:39 <Dougie187> ?
Aug 28 23:47:59 <trigatch4> can't even go to the bathroom around this place without missing crap
Aug 28 23:48:04 <trigatch4> i sit around for 3 months and nothing happens
Aug 28 23:48:10 <trigatch4> then i take a piss and the universe flys by
Aug 28 23:48:17 <Dougie187> lol
Aug 28 23:49:55 <Dougie187> were you in the top 50 trigatch4?
Aug 28 23:50:07 <dmoffett> trigatch4 I think you just found an app to write.
Aug 28 23:50:38 <trigatch4> dougie187 i'm not even a developer
Aug 28 23:50:50 <Dougie187> but you own a forum?
Aug 28 23:51:00 <trigatch4> dmoffett what app is that? SMS notification upon universe flying past?
Aug 28 23:51:08 <trigatch4> i own a forum, yes...
Aug 28 23:51:13 <trigatch4> more for consumers
Aug 28 23:51:23 <trigatch4> people who want the phones, have android enabled phones, etc...
Aug 28 23:51:41 <dmoffett> or maybe just when google announces things you want to announce.  :-)
Aug 28 23:52:46 <gambler> trigatch4, do you own other forums or is this your first foray into the forum business?
Aug 28 23:53:10 <trigatch4> i have a couple other
Aug 28 23:53:12 <trigatch4> why do you ask
Aug 28 23:53:19 <Dougie187> what are your orthers?
Aug 28 23:53:37 <trigatch4> http://mobileroar.com/forum is a more general one based around mobile industry
Aug 28 23:53:43 <trigatch4> biggest area there is on the LG Dare
Aug 28 23:53:55 <trigatch4> I started this whole forum facination with http://VerizonVoyager.org
Aug 28 23:54:03 <trigatch4> which amazingly took off... I didn't expect it...
Aug 28 23:54:21 <Dougie187> how long have you had this one?
Aug 28 23:55:08 <gambler> trigatch4, some friends of mine just started a forum for gamblers
Aug 28 23:56:37 <trigatch4> sweet
Aug 28 23:56:40 <trigatch4> sounds degenerative
Aug 28 23:56:44 <gambler> totally
Aug 28 23:56:45 <trigatch4> the type of place i would hang out
Aug 28 23:56:49 <trigatch4> and never escape
Aug 28 23:56:50 <trigatch4> hehe
Aug 28 23:56:58 <gambler> haha i have that problem too
Aug 29 00:50:42 <Guest4337> wooo found an android channel .. maybe I won't feel so lonely preaching the good word of android anymore...
Aug 29 00:51:16 <romainguy_> DJTachyon: welcome then :)
Aug 29 00:51:43 <DJTachyon> thanks! .. *sigh .. it is an uphill battle with the masses it seems ..
Aug 29 00:51:56 <DJTachyon> but I have faith..
Aug 29 00:54:20 <jasta> DJTachyon: don't get too excited ;)
Aug 29 00:54:36 <DJTachyon> heh, no?
Aug 29 00:55:09 <DJTachyon> I will probably be switching to T-Mobile from Verizon for that first phone ..
Aug 29 00:56:21 <jasta> there's just a lot of "???" to get too excited :)
Aug 29 00:56:55 <jasta> like for example, you don't even know if the best app for the platform (obviously, http://five.googlecode.com) is going to be possible with the 1.0 release.
Aug 29 00:57:02 <jasta> hehe
Aug 29 00:57:15 <DJTachyon> shameless plug? :)
Aug 29 00:57:20 <romainguy_> DJTachyon: don't listen to jasta :)
Aug 29 00:57:32 <jasta> DJTachyon: of course ;)
Aug 29 00:58:19 * jasta bites his tongue
Aug 29 00:58:59 <DJTachyon> I would love to have time to develop for this platform.  It does seem like a pretty steep curve to start developing apps for it.  Even some of the most experianced coders I know said they will wait for a book before starting to code for Android
Aug 29 00:59:24 <jasta> DJTachyon: anything but.  Android is the easiest dev environment i've ever been in.
Aug 29 00:59:28 <DJTachyon> I have gotten as far as loading the SDK, putting in music/video to the sdcard image and taking screenshots and playing around.  Wrote Hello World, etc.
Aug 29 00:59:31 <jasta> except that it is buggy as all get-out.
Aug 29 00:59:50 <jasta> though 0.9r1 has improved that (SOME! god damnit)
Aug 29 01:00:23 <jasta> DJTachyon: i don't know what devs you know, but you seem misinformed on that topic :)
Aug 29 01:00:24 <DJTachyon> Well I also am educated in computer engineering.  Embedded C & HDL is my forte.  I wish I knew more CS/SE. I should probably go for my masters in it ..
Aug 29 01:00:38 <jasta> no, you should not do that.
Aug 29 01:00:47 <jasta> save your money and just start raping the industry like everyone else
Aug 29 01:01:17 <DJTachyon> lol
Aug 29 01:01:43 <DJTachyon> indeed ..
Aug 29 01:03:24 <DJTachyon> well guess i'll idle around here for a bit.  gnight all :)
Aug 29 01:16:39 <SanMehat> re:
Aug 29 01:19:31 <gambler> hi San
Aug 29 01:23:49 <SanMehat> hey gambler
Aug 29 01:23:50 <SanMehat> whats up man
Aug 29 01:30:45 <gambler> working on some things for when the bluetooth api is published. luckily im in no rush
Aug 29 01:31:34 <DJTachyon> Hmm .. I'm assuming the Android Market won't be the only way to install apps on the phone?  Man it's amazing how thick the public is....
Aug 29 01:32:16 <jasta> DJTachyon: no, we do not expect that to be the case.
Aug 29 01:32:37 <jasta> i mean, i'm confirming your assumption.
Aug 29 01:33:03 <DJTachyon> That would baffle me.  And the public just assumes it will be like the iPhone.  Just like the public took the BT & GTalk API as not supporting BT devices or allowing Jabber/GTalk messaging
Aug 29 01:34:14 <DJTachyon> its an open system .. just like windows mobile or blackberry ... you can install what you want.  I'm just asssuming the android market is for helping promote application development and allow easy access by the general public to new applications
Aug 29 01:34:56 <DJTachyon> I think these clarifications are very important for the public, and for geeks in general.
Aug 29 01:35:13 <SanMehat> DJTachyon: your assumptions are correct.
Aug 29 01:35:21 <SanMehat> at least some of them anyways :)
Aug 29 01:35:30 <SanMehat> i can't speak to any other assumptions you may have made in the past ;)
Aug 29 01:35:50 <DJTachyon> hehe
Aug 29 01:36:16 <DJTachyon> I'm glad to hear that .. I have quite a rant on discussion forums out there
Aug 29 01:36:31 <SanMehat> please don't rant at me :)
Aug 29 01:36:37 <DJTachyon> hehe I won't ...
Aug 29 01:36:48 <DJTachyon> Its actually mostly that Google isn't promoting itself well enough
Aug 29 01:37:20 <DJTachyon> and not clarifying what might seem like simple or obvious things, but that the general public rumormill to the point of complete absurdness..
Aug 29 01:37:38 <DJTachyon> that was almost a sentance ..
Aug 29 01:37:39 <DJTachyon> :P
Aug 29 01:37:45 <SanMehat> :)
Aug 29 01:38:49 <DJTachyon> I am actually getting tired of clarifying what Android is to people.
Aug 29 01:38:53 <DJTachyon> It's tiring ;)
Aug 29 01:39:53 <DJTachyon> But I've been waiting for it, I will continue waiting for it, and I will dive in head first!
Aug 29 01:41:35 <SanMehat> sweet :)
Aug 29 01:41:53 <DJTachyon> Welp .. time for sleep.  Feel free to check out my rant on my site: http://www.djtachyon.com
Aug 29 01:42:00 <SanMehat> will do :)
Aug 29 01:42:05 <DJTachyon> gnight all..
Aug 29 01:42:51 <SanMehat> night man
Aug 29 02:26:24 <designs703> Hi everyone
Aug 29 02:27:39 <designs703> My phone contract expires in a week, and I really, really want to run Android on my next phone. What are my options? Which consumer phones have been able to run Android so far?
Aug 29 02:28:00 <f00f-> become a t-mobile customer
Aug 29 02:28:10 <f00f-> and upgrade in 2 months to an android device
Aug 29 02:28:26 <f00f-> I DON"T PROMOTE T-MOBILE THOUGH!
Aug 29 02:28:30 <f00f-> it's what you can do
Aug 29 02:28:34 <f00f-> unless you want to wait for other operators
Aug 29 02:29:59 <designs703> Have any ambitious folks installed Android, as an actual working OS (not Pod Linux!), and lived to tell the tale online?
Aug 29 02:31:05 <designs703> I really want to do some advanced phone development, and I can't bring myself to write iPhone apps for the same reason I can't bring myself to learn Flash (besides the fact that it'll be obsolete in a few years except as a cross-platform web codec)
Aug 29 02:32:54 <f00f-> yes
Aug 29 02:33:21 <f00f-> don't be so sure to judge proprietary 'standards'
Aug 29 02:33:55 <designs703> not the case
Aug 29 02:33:59 <designs703> well, sort of
Aug 29 02:34:24 <designs703> I have more problems with Apple's business practices than Adobe's. As I type this into Colloquy on my MacBook...
Aug 29 02:34:43 <designs703> And, funny enough, Adobe is the reason I'm on this computer (Unix + Adobe)
Aug 29 02:34:55 <designs703> GIMP never cut it :)
Aug 29 02:35:26 <designs703> I'm reading up, rumors are that the HTC Dream could be out as soon as September
Aug 29 02:35:56 <designs703> Is this a case of T-Mobile jumping on the bandwagon, or do you think Google is investing in this phone?
Aug 29 02:38:19 <jimmygoon> What is the activity name, application and package name for?
Aug 29 02:38:30 <jimmygoon> the "getting started" guide doesn't cover this :/
Aug 29 02:41:10 <designs703> this place is quiet...
Aug 29 02:41:29 <muthu> very quiet...
Aug 29 02:41:34 <SanMehat> too quiet...
Aug 29 02:41:49 * muthu pin drops
Aug 29 02:42:10 <designs703> Is the phone in this video the HTC dream? looks very close the drawings: http://www.markpascua.com/2008/02/28/googles-android-os-demo-plays-quake/
Aug 29 02:42:23 <muthu> oh the gallery is on..
Aug 29 02:42:54 <designs703> thanks bud, I'm out
Aug 29 02:58:20 <f00f-> how's your community +/- ?
Aug 29 02:58:22 <f00f-> plusminus_
Aug 29 02:58:34 <muthu> f00f-: how you been?
Aug 29 02:58:50 <f00f-> i've been better :D
Aug 29 02:58:54 <f00f-> congrats to you though
Aug 29 02:58:57 <muthu> thx
Aug 29 02:59:12 <muthu> but great times ahead
Aug 29 02:59:16 <muthu> market, adc2...
Aug 29 02:59:20 <f00f-> yeah for sure
Aug 29 02:59:52 <muthu> for all us androids
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Aug 29 02:59:58 2008