**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Nov 03 02:59:56 2008
Nov 03 03:02:02 <RyeBrye> http://www.wunderware.com/tuner/
Nov 03 03:02:04 <RyeBrye> I wrote you your tuner
Nov 03 03:02:21 <d0nets> lol
Nov 03 03:02:23 <d0nets> like i said
Nov 03 03:02:30 <d0nets> ive found tons of web based and pc based tuners
Nov 03 03:02:33 <d0nets> i want one for android
Nov 03 03:02:38 <Disconnect> so fucking write it already
Nov 03 03:03:18 <Chicago> Hi. I need some help.
Nov 03 03:03:18 <d0nets> im trying
Nov 03 03:03:19 <d0nets> lol
Nov 03 03:03:32 <Chicago> I compiled a zImage, a system.img a userdata.img and a ramdisk.img.
Nov 03 03:03:33 <d0nets> i read through lots of stuff last week
Nov 03 03:03:36 <d0nets> on deving for android
Nov 03 03:03:41 <d0nets> im just not experienced enough
Nov 03 03:03:48 <d0nets> but i have 2 java devs helping, but not much
Nov 03 03:03:49 <Chicago> I am trying to put haret and default.txt together so that I can boot into Android.
Nov 03 03:06:25 <Chicago> The problem is, once the kernel starts booting, it errors out with can't find /system/bin/sh ... /system/bin/servicemanager /system/bin/mountd /system/bin/debuggerd etc etc.
Nov 03 03:06:37 <Chicago> How do I make the proper initrd?
Nov 03 03:13:36 <ErikT> So, is there a way to access the market via the emulator?
Nov 03 03:14:07 <benley> maybe you could steak the market apk from a live device and put it in the emulator?
Nov 03 03:14:08 <michaelnovakjr_> ErikT: nope
Nov 03 03:14:19 <michaelnovakjr_> benley: i've tried that, doesn't work
Nov 03 03:15:20 <ErikT> Michael, not the answer I was looking for, but thanks. ;-)
Nov 03 03:21:27 <wastrel> ebook reader yet?
Nov 03 03:22:20 <unix_remote> wastrel: well, ebook reader basically means pdf, txt, doc reader.
Nov 03 03:24:16 <offby1> I finally figured out the new UI for allowing my computer to mount the SD card via USB: I click the button that appears when I plug it in -- simple enough.  But to _unmount_, there is no UI at all -- I just yank the cable.  Weird.
Nov 03 03:25:05 <wastrel> unix_remote: you don't really use ebooks do you?
Nov 03 03:25:14 <wastrel> .mobi, .lit, palmDOC
Nov 03 03:25:30 <benley> offby1: doesn't unmounting the fs on the computer send some 'eject' command that tells the phone it can have its filesystem back?
Nov 03 03:25:37 <unix_remote> wastrel: i try to avoid proprietary formats.
Nov 03 03:25:39 <offby1> benley: you'd think so, wouldn't you?
Nov 03 03:25:43 <benley> offby1: (I suppose that might depend on what OS you're using)
Nov 03 03:25:52 <offby1> Ubuntu Ignoble Ingrate
Nov 03 03:26:11 <benley> offby1: I wonder if you could use the "eject" command to send that signal.
Nov 03 03:26:16 <wastrel> umount
Nov 03 03:26:20 <benley> offby1: simply unmounting the filesystem probably won't do it
Nov 03 03:26:24 <languish> You know, the problem I was having earlier, would have driven the usual consumer insane
Nov 03 03:26:39 <offby1> benley: let's try that.
Nov 03 03:26:39 <benley> offby1: I'm pretty sure my macs do it right when I unmount the thing
Nov 03 03:26:41 <unix_remote> languish: you seem to be having a TON of nonaverage problems.
Nov 03 03:27:00 <languish> unix_remote, no joke
Nov 03 03:27:12 <languish> It's likely I use the device more than others
Nov 03 03:27:23 <languish> I mess with it consistently all day long
Nov 03 03:27:25 <offby1> haw.  "eject" ejected the CD-ROM tray.  Can't blame it.  Let's see if it takes options ...
Nov 03 03:27:34 <languish> but I only do things average users do
Nov 03 03:27:35 <DarkriftX> languish, you got a minute?
Nov 03 03:27:44 <languish> yea, sup?
Nov 03 03:27:45 <DarkriftX> i got someone who wants to talk to a g1 owner
Nov 03 03:27:48 <DarkriftX> #xda-devs
Nov 03 03:27:52 <languish> sure
Nov 03 03:27:56 <unix_remote> heh, when IRC-ing becomes a part-time job you gotta step back and look at what you're doing.
Nov 03 03:28:06 <michaelnovakjr_> haha
Nov 03 03:28:54 <offby1> benley: nope, "eject" didn't do it, despite its successfully unmounting the thing
Nov 03 03:28:54 <languish> :D
Nov 03 03:29:03 <languish> Well, most of my "work" is done on the phone
Nov 03 03:29:10 <languish> I irc while multi-tasking
Nov 03 03:29:47 <benley> translation: "I work here and there in between irc discussions"
Nov 03 03:30:17 <benley> ^_^
Nov 03 03:48:34 <languish> benley, during too :D
Nov 03 03:49:35 <languish> sitting around listening to 3 different roomfulls arguing over insignificant elements of some guys compensation package in singapore doesn't interest me
Nov 03 03:49:48 <benley> oh, ew
Nov 03 03:49:57 <languish> exactly. I'm just required to be on the line
Nov 03 03:50:10 <languish> no one said I have to care
Nov 03 03:50:52 <RyeBrye> Maybe my first app will just be something simple - pick an adjustable sample duration and have it perform an FFT to give the fundamental frequency of whatever is played - and just display that value on the screen as a number (for starters)
Nov 03 03:52:01 <RyeBrye> 2 Hz would be an ok frequency resolution for guitar tuning, right?
Nov 03 03:52:29 <d0nets> ryebrye you doin a guitar tuner?
Nov 03 03:52:33 <d0nets> wewt
Nov 03 03:52:33 <RyeBrye> No
Nov 03 03:52:48 <RyeBrye> but the simple App I create could probably be used to do a guitar tuiner
Nov 03 03:53:09 <d0nets> did you check out those apps on my code.google.com page?
Nov 03 03:53:12 <d0nets> theres a good one
Nov 03 03:53:15 <RyeBrye> Yeah, they were all GPL :P
Nov 03 03:53:17 <d0nets> with a piano tuner too
Nov 03 03:53:25 <d0nets> so twats that mean
Nov 03 03:53:26 <RyeBrye> An FFT-based one will tune anything
Nov 03 03:53:58 <RyeBrye> It means if I bust my ass and decide to make a really sweet tuner, I don't have the option to keep the source to myself for any part of it
Nov 03 03:54:58 <waldo-g1> is someone doing a guitar tuner?   theres a gpl'd java one somewhere
Nov 03 03:55:07 <RyeBrye> Yeah, there area  couple of GPL'ed java ones
Nov 03 03:55:26 <RyeBrye> but a tuner is such easy math that I the hard part isn't that  - the hard part is the GUI
Nov 03 03:55:30 <RyeBrye> and that has to be rebuilt anyway
Nov 03 03:55:50 <RyeBrye> If I'm going to release something, I'd rather just make my own and BSD or MIT license it
Nov 03 03:55:57 <ttuttle> good evening
Nov 03 03:56:07 <waldo-g1> i guess..  dont need anything overly sophosticated...
Nov 03 03:56:22 <RyeBrye> no, you just sample audio for X seconds - and then you do an FFT on it
Nov 03 03:56:44 <ttuttle> What are you doing?
Nov 03 03:56:48 <waldo-g1> do it!  i'd use it...
Nov 03 03:57:06 <RyeBrye> The first iteration would just be to display the fundamental frequency
Nov 03 03:57:08 <RyeBrye> very basic
Nov 03 03:57:11 <RyeBrye> since I'm new to android
Nov 03 03:57:23 <RyeBrye> I might be able to get that done in one night
Nov 03 03:57:59 <RyeBrye> The problem is that for a more accurate tuner, you need to have a longer sample window - so if you want 1/2 Hz resolution you need 2 seconds of sampled data
Nov 03 03:58:08 <RyeBrye> and a plucked string usually dies out before then
Nov 03 03:58:42 <andyross> So the *real* question is, is a plucked string itself even accurate to a half Hz? :)
Nov 03 03:58:48 <RyeBrye> Well, yeah - it would be
Nov 03 03:59:11 <ttuttle> Hold on...
Nov 03 03:59:19 <RyeBrye> an open string - maybe a beginner guitar player who doesn't know the right pressure could have a variation of more than a half Hz
Nov 03 03:59:22 <ttuttle> You only need 2 seconds of data to get 1/2 Hz resolution if you're just counting cycles.
Nov 03 03:59:45 <ttuttle> If you actually measure the wavelength, you can get more accurate measurements with a higher sample rate.
Nov 03 04:00:14 <RyeBrye> I was thinking of just doing FFT - which was the easiest way that came to mind
Nov 03 04:00:22 <andyross> ttuttle: No, that's wrong actually.  Nyquist proved the opposite.
Nov 03 04:00:34 <ttuttle> andyross: Really?
Nov 03 04:00:49 <ttuttle> andyross: I thought Nyquist proved that to measure a frequency of x Hz, you need a sampling rate of at least 2x Hz.
Nov 03 04:00:50 * RyeBrye wishes he hadn't sold back his graduate acoustics book
Nov 03 04:01:20 * andyross reads back, and realizes that he misread RyeBrye.  Never mind.
Nov 03 04:01:38 <ttuttle> andyross: Oh, okay.
Nov 03 04:06:20 <d0nets> ryebrye
Nov 03 04:06:24 <d0nets> thats our plan
Nov 03 04:06:40 <d0nets> my buddy ron said it would take about an hour for him to port
Nov 03 04:06:50 <d0nets> but he would rather use the idea and redo it
Nov 03 04:06:55 <RyeBrye> Yeah,
Nov 03 04:07:03 <d0nets> but same, he looked at how the UI is done in android, and he was complaining
Nov 03 04:07:05 <RyeBrye> porting it is kind of a waste of effor
Nov 03 04:07:24 <d0nets> he asked why google would do such a thing
Nov 03 04:07:47 <d0nets> and i dont have much dev experience, but i was so lost in that area in the code.google.com/android group section
Nov 03 04:09:28 <d0nets> that area = the UI construction
Nov 03 04:13:03 <wastrel> cd #calibre
Nov 03 04:13:16 <wastrel> well that was totally wrong
Nov 03 04:13:17 <benley> /fail
Nov 03 04:13:21 <d0nets> lol
Nov 03 04:14:18 <muthu> http://blogatech.wordpress.com/2008/11/02/early-adoption-soaring-for-google-android-device/
Nov 03 04:19:47 <DarkriftX> anyone know how to get out of bootloader mode on the G1 (not recovery mode)
Nov 03 04:19:58 <benley> pull the battery
Nov 03 04:20:13 <DarkriftX> ouch.
Nov 03 04:20:24 <benley> or connect with fastboot and tell it what to do
Nov 03 04:20:35 <DarkriftX> ?
Nov 03 04:20:38 <benley> nevermind.
Nov 03 04:20:50 <benley> (tool that's not usable with retail devices)
Nov 03 04:20:55 <DarkriftX> ahhhh
Nov 03 04:21:20 <DarkriftX> languish was taking a pic of the bootloader mode and didnt know how to get out, so i thought id ask around lol
Nov 03 04:22:37 <benley> DarkriftX: what's actually onscreen in the bootloader on the shipping phones?
Nov 03 04:23:02 <DarkriftX> 3 colors, and some basic device info
Nov 03 04:23:09 <DarkriftX> same as most htc devices, but without connection info
Nov 03 04:23:12 <benley> rainbow?
Nov 03 04:24:20 <DarkriftX> yeah
Nov 03 04:24:20 <offby1> <whine>the UI for manipulating folders on the desktop sure is fiddly</whine>
Nov 03 04:24:25 <romainguy_> yes
Nov 03 04:24:26 <romainguy_> we know
Nov 03 04:24:31 <romainguy_> but that's the best we found
Nov 03 04:24:36 <romainguy_> patches welcome :)
Nov 03 04:24:38 * benley sleeps
Nov 03 04:24:41 <cmonex> hi all
Nov 03 04:24:49 <DarkriftX> lol, here comes the fun
Nov 03 04:24:52 <cmonex> =)
Nov 03 04:25:00 <cmonex> is there public src for the bootloader for g1?
Nov 03 04:25:02 <romainguy_> that said the next version of Home will bring a new cool feature for folders :))
Nov 03 04:25:03 <cmonex> just to confirm the rumour
Nov 03 04:25:05 <romainguy_> cmonex: no
Nov 03 04:25:10 <cmonex> oh right didnt  think so
Nov 03 04:25:15 <cmonex> do you guys have an image of the bootloader
Nov 03 04:25:27 <romainguy_> yes
Nov 03 04:25:33 <romainguy_> but you won't get it ;)
Nov 03 04:25:38 <cmonex> i have the one for sapphire only
Nov 03 04:25:55 <cmonex> hopefully its similar enough
Nov 03 04:26:40 <michaelnovakjr_> what's up with the barcode scanner needing your contacts?
Nov 03 04:26:58 <romainguy_> michaelnovakjr: it doesn't read your contacts
Nov 03 04:26:58 <michaelnovakjr_> i appreciate that the market shows you that stuff :)
Nov 03 04:27:01 <romainguy_> it's to add contacts
Nov 03 04:27:09 <michaelnovakjr_> romainguy_: for...
Nov 03 04:27:33 <romainguy_> you can scan a QR barcode (from a visit card) and create a contact from it
Nov 03 04:27:45 <romainguy_> it's an open source app anyway, so you can check the code
Nov 03 04:28:01 <michaelnovakjr_> its cool :) looks like a good app
Nov 03 04:28:08 <cmonex> romainguy_: by the way i was told this sapphire ruu was for the g1. this doesn't make sense as dream is the g1
Nov 03 04:28:41 <romainguy_> I don't know what this sapphire thing is
Nov 03 04:28:51 <romainguy_> the g1 is the HTC dream
Nov 03 04:28:56 <cmonex> romainguy_: I received a bootloader image a few weeks ago
Nov 03 04:29:01 <cmonex> i was told it was for g1
Nov 03 04:29:03 <romainguy_> from who?
Nov 03 04:29:05 <cmonex> but it says sapphire on the filename
Nov 03 04:29:09 <cmonex> you dont need to know who it was
Nov 03 04:29:13 <romainguy_> well
Nov 03 04:29:17 <romainguy_> I work for Google... :)
Nov 03 04:29:22 <cmonex> really :P
Nov 03 04:29:42 <cmonex> then why are you trying to hack their stuff ? :P
Nov 03 04:29:56 <romainguy_> I'm not trying to hack anything
Nov 03 04:29:57 <RyeBrye> The official google people aren't
Nov 03 04:29:58 <romainguy_> I work on Android
Nov 03 04:30:00 <RyeBrye> The rest of us are
Nov 03 04:30:04 <cmonex> ah, misunderstood ;)
Nov 03 04:30:27 <cmonex> somehow got the impression you were trying to do that :)
Nov 03 04:31:20 <RyeBrye> Although it will likely benefit the google people if some of us who are prone to hack the kernel were able to be motivated to do so by the ability to do it on our own devices - because they'd probably get some nice patches out of it
Nov 03 04:31:39 <cmonex> hmm
Nov 03 04:31:53 <wastrel> i want an ebook reader and a decent to-do list manager
Nov 03 04:31:56 <cmonex> romainguy_ :if you really work for google: can you tell me if google is really working on getting native code enabling?
Nov 03 04:32:05 <andyross> cmonex: It works right now
Nov 03 04:32:06 <RyeBrye> There is JNI already
Nov 03 04:32:07 <ttuttle> cmonex: romainguy_ does really work for Google.
Nov 03 04:32:18 <DarkriftX> he is the one laughing while we try to hack android
Nov 03 04:32:20 <romainguy_> cmonex: we are
Nov 03 04:32:26 <ttuttle> DarkriftX: And?
Nov 03 04:32:29 <RyeBrye> either romainguy works for google - or he's done a convincing job stealing the identity of a guy who does and coming on IRC
Nov 03 04:32:29 <ttuttle> DarkriftX: That doesn't mean he doesn't.
Nov 03 04:32:50 <DarkriftX> it was a joke
Nov 03 04:32:56 <DarkriftX> not meant in a bad way
Nov 03 04:33:01 <cmonex> ok way too much of confusing and contradicting rumours - can you currently run native code on g1?
Nov 03 04:33:08 <ttuttle> cmonex: Yes.
Nov 03 04:33:08 <benley> sure.
Nov 03 04:33:08 <cmonex> (I don't have a G1 btw)
Nov 03 04:33:10 <romainguy_> not officially
Nov 03 04:33:10 <RyeBrye> JNI already works, but it's not supported
Nov 03 04:33:14 <cmonex> I see
Nov 03 04:33:14 <ttuttle> cmonex: Getting it on to the G1 may be difficult, though.
Nov 03 04:33:17 <benley> shit, I said I was going to sleep
Nov 03 04:33:17 <DarkriftX> lol
Nov 03 04:33:19 * benley goes to sleep
Nov 03 04:33:20 <ttuttle> benley: sleep?
Nov 03 04:33:22 <romainguy_> so if you do, it's likely to break with a future firmware update
Nov 03 04:33:24 <ttuttle> benley: pfft.
Nov 03 04:33:25 <cmonex> ttuttle: that means ?
Nov 03 04:33:39 <ttuttle> cmonex: There's no mechanism, AFAIK, for installing binaries.
Nov 03 04:33:41 <andyross> Nah, it's easy.  Store the .so as a raw resource, write it out to your data directory and call System.load().
Nov 03 04:33:42 <romainguy_> (and that sucks for you and the users)
Nov 03 04:33:50 <spikebike> binaries don't have to be signed?
Nov 03 04:33:55 <ttuttle> andyross: Er, that's clumsy.
Nov 03 04:33:56 <romainguy_> andyross: yeah but that uses more precious data partition space :)
Nov 03 04:34:05 <ttuttle> spikebike: No, but there's no way to install them using an .apk.
Nov 03 04:34:10 <cmonex> romainguy_: I hope google changes policy on this soon then :)
Nov 03 04:34:11 <ttuttle> spikebike: You'd have to write them at runtime.
Nov 03 04:34:17 <cmonex> then there will be a lot more potential in android (IMO of course)
Nov 03 04:34:20 <romainguy_> cmonex: I told you we're working on it
Nov 03 04:34:24 <romainguy_> but we want to do it correctly
Nov 03 04:34:26 <RyeBrye> the thing I'm wonderng about with the JNI - obviously you can't use JNI to go frollicking around the internals, right?
Nov 03 04:34:29 <cmonex> I see :)
Nov 03 04:34:29 <andyross> romainguy_: Not if you write it to the tmpfs, I supppose.  But it's your platform.
Nov 03 04:34:32 <romainguy_> RyeBrye: nope
Nov 03 04:34:39 <ttuttle> romainguy_: Why not
Nov 03 04:34:41 <ttuttle> er
Nov 03 04:34:42 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Why not?
Nov 03 04:34:56 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Security still works.
Nov 03 04:35:35 <RyeBrye> So JNI is probably not going to be a good vector for attack on the device
Nov 03 04:36:14 <ttuttle> No.
Nov 03 04:36:16 <ttuttle> They thought of that ;-)
Nov 03 04:36:30 <ttuttle> Multiple layers of security are good.
Nov 03 04:36:33 <DarkriftX> romainguy_, do you know what file the bootloader is looking for? before the colored screen it says "no files found"
Nov 03 04:36:44 <andyross> RyeBrye: take a look at http://plausible.org/andy/NativeAPK-debug.apk , which writes some syscall level inspection to your logcat when it runs.  You can touch a lot more than the Java API exposes, but are still limited to your app's uid's access rights.
Nov 03 04:36:58 <RyeBrye> Ok
Nov 03 04:37:26 <romainguy_> note that using JNI makes getting access to the high level stuff (intents, etc) more annoying
Nov 03 04:37:32 <romainguy_> because you have to invoke the Java layer
Nov 03 04:37:58 <RyeBrye> so you can't create a C function to go grab memory at arbitratry addresses or write to memory at arbitrary addresses?
Nov 03 04:38:02 <RyeBrye> Darn. :)
Nov 03 04:38:35 <andyross> Not as a non-root user, no.  And apps don't run as root.
Nov 03 04:39:12 <RyeBrye> The root user doesn't have a password, right?
Nov 03 04:39:26 <Damm> android
Nov 03 04:39:57 <michaelnovakjr_> if apps ran as root, i'd be very nervous
Nov 03 04:40:13 <andyross> There's nothing running on the system that would take a password, AFAIK.  It's not really unix.  There's no login or suid process.  Apps get installed into unique uid's by a root installd daemon.
Nov 03 04:40:55 <RyeBrye> Ok
Nov 03 04:40:59 <cmonex> DarkriftX: i suppose its all HTC code for the HBOOT, so dont nag google guys about it. :P
Nov 03 04:41:18 <DarkriftX> i know, but they tweak stuff too lol
Nov 03 04:41:28 <RyeBrye> cmonex - you poking around at the HTC bootloader piece?
Nov 03 04:41:37 <andyross> I thought we decided a few days ago that the bootloader looked like the google source, didn't we?  Source won't help, it takes signed packages.
Nov 03 04:41:39 <cmonex> RyeBrye: its not for the g1 apparently, but yes
Nov 03 04:41:52 <cmonex> (the file was named sapphire, not dream)
Nov 03 04:41:54 <RyeBrye> The bootloader doesn't look like GOogle to me - it looks like HTC to me
Nov 03 04:41:59 <RyeBrye> the Recovery mode definitely looks like google
Nov 03 04:42:01 <cmonex> RyeBrye: correct
Nov 03 04:42:03 <RyeBrye> and it definitely takes signed images
Nov 03 04:42:05 <cmonex> are you familiar with HTC SPL's?
Nov 03 04:42:08 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Some of them don't ;-)
Nov 03 04:42:09 <RyeBrye> No, I'm not
Nov 03 04:42:12 <cmonex> i am :)
Nov 03 04:42:14 <satadru_> the bootloader looks the same as on my Treo 650
Nov 03 04:42:26 <satadru_> rainbow screen... very HTCish from what I recall
Nov 03 04:42:33 <ttuttle> It is HTC, I believe.
Nov 03 04:43:24 <RyeBrye> cmonex - well, I think you are right to attack that piece of it - since I'm pretty sure that HTC put it in place - but it appears that they disabled the USB port in it when it comes up
Nov 03 04:43:27 <romainguy_> the bootloader is from HTC
Nov 03 04:43:30 <romainguy_> nothing to do with us
Nov 03 04:43:37 <RyeBrye> Yeah, which is why we are going after that now :)
Nov 03 04:43:40 <cmonex> romainguy_: then i guessed right.
Nov 03 04:43:49 <romainguy_> that wasn't a touch guess :)
Nov 03 04:43:49 <cmonex> hmm, RyeBrye you got a G1?
Nov 03 04:43:54 <RyeBrye> cmonex -yes
Nov 03 04:43:55 * ttuttle loves watching stuff get hacked ;-)
Nov 03 04:43:57 <satadru_> the boot loader does say serial0 when it comes up
Nov 03 04:44:13 <cmonex> does it ever switch the text to "USB"?
Nov 03 04:44:18 <cmonex> with the usb cable plugged in
Nov 03 04:44:21 <RyeBrye> A google person may have been more helpful than they should have been the otehr day - but they explaiend how their functioning one worked
Nov 03 04:44:27 <satadru_> I don't recall it switching to USB text
Nov 03 04:44:29 <andyross> Is happy to read the after action reports of stuff being successfully hacked.  Reverse engineering makes him feel dirty.
Nov 03 04:44:31 <RyeBrye> and the functioning one DOES switch to "fastboot"
Nov 03 04:44:40 <ttuttle> Yeah, I think it says fastboot instead of USB.
Nov 03 04:44:41 <cmonex> satadru_: would be nice ifyou could check
Nov 03 04:44:50 <RyeBrye> It doesn't say USB at all
Nov 03 04:44:51 * ttuttle has one that can be fastbooted =D
Nov 03 04:44:57 <satadru_> cmonex: one sec
Nov 03 04:44:58 <ttuttle> (With *any* image.)
Nov 03 04:45:06 <cmonex> what do you refer to as "functioning one"?
Nov 03 04:45:11 <DarkriftX> dont tease her like that ttuttle
Nov 03 04:45:15 <RyeBrye> I mean a non-neutered one
Nov 03 04:45:19 <DarkriftX> she might hunt you down
Nov 03 04:45:19 <RyeBrye> an engineering one
Nov 03 04:45:21 <RyeBrye> not a production one
Nov 03 04:45:27 <cmonex> lol DarkriftX
Nov 03 04:45:33 <cmonex> oh right ..
Nov 03 04:45:34 <ttuttle> lol
Nov 03 04:45:44 <DarkriftX> ttuttle has a dev g1, right?
Nov 03 04:45:46 <cmonex> why are only the dev versions called functional?
Nov 03 04:45:49 <cmonex> very intreresting, you see =P
Nov 03 04:45:51 <ttuttle> Hmm...
Nov 03 04:45:57 * ttuttle is not sure if it's a "dev" one.
Nov 03 04:45:57 <RyeBrye> well - I guess the production ones function
Nov 03 04:46:03 <RyeBrye> they just dont' function the way I want it to :)
Nov 03 04:46:11 <cmonex> so, uh, if the usb is plugged in on a dev device,
Nov 03 04:46:18 <RyeBrye> it will say "Fastboot"
Nov 03 04:46:22 <cmonex> the "serial" text changes to fastboot? or to usb?
Nov 03 04:46:23 <cmonex> ah, ok
Nov 03 04:46:26 <satadru_> cmonex: plugged in after bootloader loaded
Nov 03 04:46:27 <RyeBrye> but on ours, it just says "Serial0" and nothing shows up on the USB bus
Nov 03 04:46:28 <cmonex> and only on dev devices?
Nov 03 04:46:29 <ttuttle> It's got an unlocked bootloader, so I can flash any image, and it's not SIM-locked, so I can use it on AT&T, and it's configured to receive dogfood (internal testing) builds.
Nov 03 04:46:32 <satadru_> stays serial0
Nov 03 04:46:35 <RyeBrye> cmonex -yes
Nov 03 04:46:36 <cmonex> wow, shame
Nov 03 04:46:53 <RyeBrye> It WILL quickly say "Loading... No Image Found!" if oyu hold down power + back home button I think
Nov 03 04:46:56 <RyeBrye> or maybe it's camera button
Nov 03 04:47:09 <RyeBrye> I think they disabled the USB in the bootloader
Nov 03 04:47:20 <RyeBrye> possibly as some final step in QA at the factory
Nov 03 04:47:25 <cmonex> RyeBrye: that is because the bootloader is looking for SD card
Nov 03 04:47:30 <cmonex> wonder if they also disabled SD flashing
Nov 03 04:47:33 * ttuttle knows production ones can be flashed from SD cards (yeah, cmonex) but you need a signed image.
Nov 03 04:47:34 <RyeBrye> They probably did
Nov 03 04:47:35 <cmonex> (the "Loading" is the SD thingie)
Nov 03 04:47:41 <cmonex> ahh
Nov 03 04:47:42 <cmonex> ok
Nov 03 04:47:49 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - flashed from the rainbow screen or the recovery screen?
Nov 03 04:47:54 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Not sure.
Nov 03 04:47:55 <cmonex> is it the same image as the ota update.zip?
Nov 03 04:47:58 <cmonex> i am talking about rainbow screen
Nov 03 04:48:01 <RyeBrye> yeah
Nov 03 04:48:01 <ttuttle> cmonex: Not sure.
Nov 03 04:48:04 <ttuttle> Try it?
Nov 03 04:48:07 <RyeBrye> no the ota update.zip is on the recovery screen
Nov 03 04:48:08 <cmonex> yeah, can you try =)
Nov 03 04:48:11 <cmonex> I dont have a G1 :)
Nov 03 04:48:12 <RyeBrye> not on the rainbow bootloader
Nov 03 04:48:15 <RyeBrye> I can try
Nov 03 04:48:19 <RyeBrye> I have an update.zip on my SD card right now
Nov 03 04:48:22 <cmonex> ok, cool
Nov 03 04:48:33 <RyeBrye> but I think the onyl way to load it is in the recovery mode (google code)
Nov 03 04:48:35 <ttuttle> So what bootloader shortcuts are  there so far?
Nov 03 04:48:40 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Makes sense.
Nov 03 04:49:30 <DarkriftX> power+camera (real bootloader) and power+home (recovery)
Nov 03 04:49:41 <RyeBrye> Yeah, on mine it still says "Loading... No image file!" wiht power + camera then back to a screen with Serial0
Nov 03 04:49:42 <trigatch4> DJTachyon - you around?
Nov 03 04:49:47 <RyeBrye> that's with an update.zip on the SD card
Nov 03 04:50:04 <RyeBrye> It's HBOOT-0.95.0000
Nov 03 04:50:13 <RyeBrye> the top line reads DREA100 PVT 32B
Nov 03 04:50:47 <DarkriftX> same as languish's
Nov 03 04:51:00 <DarkriftX> what abotu in the middle
Nov 03 04:51:02 <cmonex> so, it looks for diff image :shrug:
Nov 03 04:51:04 <cmonex> lets see something
Nov 03 04:51:17 <RyeBrye> It does power over USB though
Nov 03 04:51:23 <RyeBrye> because I can pull the battery out and it doesn't turn off
Nov 03 04:51:52 <cmonex> i assume it will see file if you name it DREAIMG.NBH =)
Nov 03 04:52:01 <cmonex> but of course it will still need to be the right file format
Nov 03 04:52:16 <trissmo> RyeBrye are you trying to update the G1?
Nov 03 04:52:54 <RyeBrye> cmonex - will it have a check to make sure that the file isn't bogus before it tries to flash?
Nov 03 04:52:56 <cmonex> the NBH also uses rsa signing, so we are not better off :P
Nov 03 04:52:57 <RyeBrye> because I can rename a file to that
Nov 03 04:53:00 <RyeBrye> Oh :(
Nov 03 04:53:02 <cmonex> it does check
Nov 03 04:53:12 <cmonex> (i mean if its bogus or not)
Nov 03 04:53:22 <RyeBrye> I can put a file with that name on and see if it will read that in the SD mode
Nov 03 04:53:24 <cmonex> well, at least  try to put a file on it, i want to see if my theory is correct as far as the file name
Nov 03 04:55:23 <RyeBrye> There aren't any ways to create a fake SD card with a microcontroller are there? I was wondering if you could make something that would present itself as an SD card to the OS - let it read the files to verify the signatures - and then replace the files on the SD card with modified versions... (this obviously wont work if it reads them and retains them in memory  - and it would be a real pain to do)
Nov 03 04:56:30 <cmonex> hm, I don't know how google's code works, but rwith HTC
Nov 03 04:56:31 <cmonex> er
Nov 03 04:56:37 <cmonex> with HTC's checking it wouldn't succeed
Nov 03 04:57:02 <RyeBrye> I can look at Google's code - which is nice :) but the verify step is IMMEDIATELY followed by the install step
Nov 03 04:57:22 * ttuttle 's G1's screen has gained its first scratch :-(
Nov 03 04:57:23 <RyeBrye> so you couldn't swap SD cards on it or anything
Nov 03 04:57:27 <satadru_> cmonex: no response on dreaimg.nbh according to http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=438072
Nov 03 04:57:32 <ttuttle> Tried to toss it up onto my bed and it landed in a bowl of pasta with a fork.
Nov 03 04:57:46 <languish> ttuttle, you're making me want to get a screen protector
Nov 03 04:57:54 <ttuttle> languish: That's a good idea.
Nov 03 04:57:56 <ttuttle> languish: I should get one.
Nov 03 04:58:02 <DarkriftX> RyeBrye, wouldnt work anyways, the card is mounted
Nov 03 04:58:03 <RyeBrye> Yeah, no image file still with the DREAMIMG.NBH
Nov 03 04:58:04 <spikebike> I bought a t-mobile 10 pack
Nov 03 04:58:06 <languish> romainguy insisted the screens were very resilient and I shouldn't want one
Nov 03 04:58:08 * languish sucker
Nov 03 04:58:11 <DarkriftX> removing it would not mount the card that was put in next
Nov 03 04:58:29 <ttuttle> languish: they are *quite* resillient.
Nov 03 04:58:32 <andyross> RyeBrye: the hardware hack is clever.  I'm pretty sure that SD is clocked at 20MHz or so, so that's not infeasible IMHO to someone with a FPGA and some design experience.
Nov 03 04:58:33 <RyeBrye> darkriftX - the original idea wasn't swapping cards - it was creating a fake card driven by a microcontroller
Nov 03 04:58:34 <ttuttle> languish: This is the first scratch I've ever gotten.
Nov 03 04:58:36 <cmonex> maybe it's because it doesn't like the signing
Nov 03 04:58:42 <cmonex> :shrug:
Nov 03 04:58:47 <ttuttle> spikebike: you got extras?
Nov 03 04:58:48 <languish> ttuttle how long have you had that specific handset?
Nov 03 04:58:54 <ttuttle> languish: Hmm...
Nov 03 04:59:15 <andyross> Then again, it would be completely avoidable just by reading the whole file into memory.  There's more RAM on this box than the size of any single flash image.
Nov 03 04:59:39 <RyeBrye> Yes, so they would be able to easily fix it - even if it did do the thing in 2 passes for now
Nov 03 04:59:53 <ttuttle> languish: About 3 weeks, but I left the peel-off thing on for a while.
Nov 03 05:00:06 <ttuttle> languish: The plastic thing scratches really easily, but the screen itself is great.
Nov 03 05:00:14 <andyross> Doesn't matter.  The bootloader that shipped can't be replaced OTA, I'm sure.  So if you crack the G1, it will stay cracked until replaced by the G2 or whatever.
Nov 03 05:00:28 <ttuttle> andyross: ...how sure are you that it can't be OTAed?
Nov 03 05:00:28 <swetland> andyross: untrue
Nov 03 05:00:30 <RyeBrye> andyross - the recovery mode could be though
Nov 03 05:00:33 <languish> my peel off protector, came applyed sideways. I had to remove it
Nov 03 05:00:34 <RyeBrye> that's Gogole thing
Nov 03 05:00:35 <romainguy_> andyross: nope
Nov 03 05:00:50 <spikebike> ttuttle they claim they work for a month or so
Nov 03 05:00:50 <languish> then again, my whole damn G1 came a little messed up.
Nov 03 05:00:57 <RyeBrye> Well... if I did crack it I would be sure that I would prevent OTA updates from running on it
Nov 03 05:00:59 <andyross> Meh.  No one's going to push an OTA update to software that will brick the device if it fails.
Nov 03 05:01:04 <ttuttle> spikebike: Ah.
Nov 03 05:01:06 <ttuttle> languish: Oh?
Nov 03 05:01:09 <RyeBrye> andyross - tell that to Apple :)
Nov 03 05:01:15 <ttuttle> Google != Apple.
Nov 03 05:01:23 <RyeBrye> Yeah, true
Nov 03 05:01:54 <RyeBrye> Well.. thankfully we know that T-mobile deploys update with the speed of a sloth on sedatives - so we'd have plenty of time to prepare to avoid one
Nov 03 05:01:54 <languish> ttuttle, yeah... the screenprotector out of the box (pre-order) came applied askew, screatches ont he inside of the back cover, and screws were loose
Nov 03 05:02:09 <languish> i had to tighten them so they didn't fall out
Nov 03 05:02:28 <DarkriftX> thats not like htc
Nov 03 05:02:34 <DarkriftX> yo know they were rushing to get these out
Nov 03 05:02:37 <languish> that's just my luck with this device
Nov 03 05:02:47 <languish> my wife's was in much better shape
Nov 03 05:02:59 <languish> she still has the original screen protector on
Nov 03 05:03:30 <ttuttle> languish: awww
Nov 03 05:03:39 * ttuttle finds that very odd.
Nov 03 05:03:49 <romainguy_> ttuttle: shit happens :)
Nov 03 05:03:51 <ErikT> Actually, I had a similar problem with my HTC Touch Cruise, resulted in a nasty scratch. http://erik.thauvin.net/blog/news.jsp?date=2008-02-18#317
Nov 03 05:03:56 <ttuttle> romainguy_: yeah
Nov 03 05:04:17 <languish> romainguy_, where were you when I needed you :| *whine* *cry* *whimper* :::complain:::
Nov 03 05:04:18 <romainguy_> ErikT: hey! I know your blog, I used to read it all the time :)
Nov 03 05:04:24 <romainguy_> languish: :p
Nov 03 05:04:29 <RyeBrye> These files aren't validated: // Don't validate: directories, the manifest, *.RSA, and *.SF. - but that doesn't seem to be relevant, since I don't think they get copied or deployed
Nov 03 05:04:30 <ttuttle> languish: So, you do realize that romainguy_ has a job, right?
Nov 03 05:04:31 <languish> :)
Nov 03 05:04:35 <ErikT> Romain, I know. ;-)
Nov 03 05:04:42 <romainguy_> lol
Nov 03 05:04:48 * ttuttle 's G1 is minty fresh.
Nov 03 05:04:48 <languish> ttuttle, on sunday night?
Nov 03 05:04:49 <romainguy_> ah yes I remember why
Nov 03 05:04:54 <romainguy_> you had awesome link blogs
Nov 03 05:04:56 <ttuttle> (I tried to use the toothpaste trick to remove the scratch.)
Nov 03 05:04:58 <romainguy_> and you stopped
Nov 03 05:05:03 <ttuttle> (Turns out the screen is invulnerable to toothpaste.)
Nov 03 05:05:08 <ErikT> Yeah, got tried after 8 yeras.
Nov 03 05:05:16 <romainguy_> I can understand that :)
Nov 03 05:05:18 <ErikT> tired, even. See I can't type anymore.
Nov 03 05:05:25 <romainguy_> but I'm still bummed you stopped :)
Nov 03 05:05:50 <languish> ttuttle http://www.burningissues.net/how_to/scratchrepair/scratchrepair.htm
Nov 03 05:06:02 <languish> ttuttle check that for materials better suited to repaqir a scratch than toothpaste
Nov 03 05:06:52 <RyeBrye> brasso, huh?
Nov 03 05:07:02 <andyross> Tartar control toothpaste?
Nov 03 05:07:02 <RyeBrye> that's what people used on the nanos when they got all scratched up, IIRC
Nov 03 05:07:56 <cmonex> [06:00:16] <andyross> Doesn't matter.  The bootloader that shipped can't be replaced OTA, I'm sure.  So if you crack the G1, it will stay cracked until replaced by the G2 or whatever.
Nov 03 05:08:08 <cmonex> the HBOOT thing (HTC's bootloader) is perfectly able to update itself
Nov 03 05:08:18 <cmonex> question is will google or htc release an update :)
Nov 03 05:08:20 <ttuttle> It can be flashed like any other partition.
Nov 03 05:10:12 <RyeBrye> Looking at the recovery.c code it appears that it WOULD be vulnerable to a hardware attack were you clever enough to do the pseudo-SD card that would present the correct file first - and then the hacked file after-the-fact
Nov 03 05:10:26 <RyeBrye> however, that's obviously non-trivial
Nov 03 05:10:41 <RyeBrye> It doesn't cache what it verifies, it just verifies - then installs
Nov 03 05:11:22 <swetland> really? we should fix that ^^
Nov 03 05:11:24 * swetland files a bug
Nov 03 05:11:30 <RyeBrye> err
Nov 03 05:11:31 <andyross> Probably not that bad to a hardware person.  I know enough to read datasheets, and have looked at older SD versions in the past.  It's a simple protocol, and almost certainly doable with a FPGA (which isn't a cheap piece of hardware, so this isn't a mass market crack).
Nov 03 05:11:37 <RyeBrye> what I meant to say was... It would DEFINITELY not work that way
Nov 03 05:11:38 <RyeBrye> ;)
Nov 03 05:11:52 <phyburn> aggg how do you use textview in a extender class?
Nov 03 05:11:59 <romainguy_> what's an extender?
Nov 03 05:12:04 <swetland> I actually thought they took care of that and staged in /tmp to avoid cardswap and other trickery
Nov 03 05:12:11 <phyburn> romainguy_, public class clock extends TimerTask
Nov 03 05:12:20 <phyburn> that for example
Nov 03 05:12:20 <swetland> but there are only so many hours in the day
Nov 03 05:12:21 <romainguy_> use a Handler
Nov 03 05:12:31 <RyeBrye> swetland - maybe they read from /tmp - I didn't look at it too in depth
Nov 03 05:12:31 <phyburn> handler wont work because I need more than one clock running
Nov 03 05:13:10 <romainguy_> phyburn: you can have several clocks with one handler
Nov 03 05:13:15 <romainguy_> messages can have arguments
Nov 03 05:13:17 <phyburn> and I couldn't get the handler to refresh every second
Nov 03 05:13:51 <andyross> phyburn: If you have complicated timer behavior and can't get the existing API to work for you, just spawn a thread to do it and you can have whatever you want.
Nov 03 05:13:55 <phyburn> I could only get it to display the time once, then it never changed
Nov 03 05:14:11 <romainguy_> phyburn: I told you that already, when you receive the message, send it again
Nov 03 05:14:29 <ttuttle> romainguy_: Hey... if it's got the same version number as a production device, is the hboot on my eng build any different from theirs?
Nov 03 05:14:49 <romainguy_> ttuttle: no idea
Nov 03 05:14:50 <phyburn> romainguy_, well I didn't know hwo to program send it again
Nov 03 05:15:10 * andyross strongly suspects that you do it the second time the same way you did it the first. :)
Nov 03 05:15:26 <phyburn> I tried doing that still didn't update it
Nov 03 05:15:37 <phyburn> I also tried making a while statement that was set to always true, it never updated
Nov 03 05:15:40 <romainguy_> phyburn: Handlers really are the way to go
Nov 03 05:15:44 <romainguy_> because they are executed on the UI thread
Nov 03 05:15:54 <romainguy_> with your TimerTask you will need to use a Handler anyway to update the UI on the UI thread
Nov 03 05:15:54 <swetland> ttuttle: not sure if eng/prod hboot actually shows any visible difference in the version numbre
Nov 03 05:15:56 <romainguy_> so use a Handler
Nov 03 05:16:10 <swetland> but production hboot has fastboot and serial debug stuff disabled
Nov 03 05:16:15 <phyburn> ohh, how do I update the UI thread? maybe that was the problem romainguy_
Nov 03 05:16:30 <romainguy_> using a Handler...
Nov 03 05:16:35 <ttuttle> swetland: oh
Nov 03 05:16:40 <romainguy_> that's why if you use a Handler in the first place, there's no issue
Nov 03 05:16:50 <ttuttle> swetland: Ah, so it would be a bad idea for an eng hboot to be flaoting around then?
Nov 03 05:17:37 <swetland> well, one still needs to flash it, which is the tricky part
Nov 03 05:17:42 <phyburn> romainguy_, is there a method in handler to update  the UI thread?
Nov 03 05:17:42 <RyeBrye> yeah
Nov 03 05:17:51 <romainguy_> phyburn: Handler code runs on the UI thread
Nov 03 05:17:56 <swetland> if they have control over the device such that they can flash the eng hboot, they probably don't *need* the eng hboot anymore
Nov 03 05:18:01 <cmonex> that's correct
Nov 03 05:18:08 <cmonex> it would just be nice to have the binary :)
Nov 03 05:18:36 <RyeBrye> Wouldnt' having the binary make it easier to do a hardware flash on the chip itself?
Nov 03 05:18:42 * RyeBrye is starting to talk nonsense
Nov 03 05:19:05 <phyburn> romainguy_, well i dont know what I did wrong because it will only display the time once http://pastebin.com/d315b92d5 <-- if you want to look
Nov 03 05:19:57 <romainguy_> so first of all you pass a null Runnable to the Handler
Nov 03 05:20:02 <romainguy_> so nothing gets executed
Nov 03 05:20:25 <phyburn> it does display it once
Nov 03 05:20:38 <muthu> phyburn: where's the run()?
Nov 03 05:20:40 <romainguy_> because you invoke your method clock
Nov 03 05:20:47 <romainguy_> but you are not passing anything to the Handler
Nov 03 05:20:51 <phyburn> ohhhh
Nov 03 05:21:40 <phyburn> I don't get how I could have it return the time and have it display it
Nov 03 05:21:57 <andyross> phyburn: The confusion here is that you have defined a method to do what you want.  This should be named "run()" and be a method of a Runnable object.  Instead, you have defined the method to *return* a Runnable and are trying to call it like a factory method.
Nov 03 05:22:25 <romainguy_> well and that code wouldn't really work as a Runnable because it creates a new TextView and sets teh content view every time
Nov 03 05:22:31 <RyeBrye> Is there any way to dump the HTC bootloader off?
Nov 03 05:22:44 <RyeBrye> i.e. get the image of the one on the production phones?
Nov 03 05:23:02 <phyburn> romainguy_, what is a better way to output the time then?
Nov 03 05:23:03 <ErikT> Is there a 'smaller' (real-estate-wise) version of android.R.layout.simple_spinner_dropdown_item?
Nov 03 05:23:17 <phyburn> andyross, so should I add public void run(){ method } ?
Nov 03 05:23:19 <romainguy_> phyburn: just set the text on your textview
Nov 03 05:23:26 <andyross> RyeBrye: There might be some debug solder pads, I guess.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the flash for the bootloader was on the SoC itself.
Nov 03 05:23:34 <muthu> ErikT: try activity_list_item
Nov 03 05:23:40 <romainguy_> ErikT: no, because this one has the appropriate size for the touch screen
Nov 03 05:23:56 <andyross> phyburn: I think you need to step back a little and work on your core java skills. Maybe work through a threading tutorial so you can get used to the idea of creating a custom Runnable subclass.
Nov 03 05:24:00 <romainguy_> you can make it smaller if you wish, but that's just gonna make your UI annoying to use :)
Nov 03 05:24:34 <phyburn> lol The UI is just going to be clocks and random other text that isn't editable
Nov 03 05:24:38 <muthu> yeah, i did use a smaller list item.. but changed back to default because its too small to touch
Nov 03 05:24:52 <RyeBrye> andyross - I was looking for something easier to get the image of the bootloader off :)
Nov 03 05:25:03 <ErikT> Romain, it's a little overwhelming when you have a long list of items, IMHO.
Nov 03 05:25:42 <romainguy_> ErikT: and yet, that really is the size you want to drive the UI with a finger
Nov 03 05:26:34 <romainguy_> ErikT: it will also keep your UI consistent with the rest of the system
Nov 03 05:26:38 <romainguy_> but again, you can do it if you want
Nov 03 05:26:49 <romainguy_> I'll just poke you in the eyes if you do and release the app on Market :))
Nov 03 05:26:56 <muthu> haha
Nov 03 05:27:00 <phyburn> romainguy_, what do you mean set the text on your textview isn't that what I'm doing?
Nov 03 05:27:09 <muthu> going with the default would make sense most of the time
Nov 03 05:27:13 <romainguy_> you create a new TextView and set it as a content view
Nov 03 05:27:14 <romainguy_> that's fine
Nov 03 05:27:23 <RyeBrye> If I could get a binary dump of the bootloader, I could load it into IDA pro and poke around and see what it is doing behind the scenes
Nov 03 05:27:27 <romainguy_> but when you update the clock the next time, you need to call setText() on the TextView insitead
Nov 03 05:27:34 <cmonex> RyeBrye: no good,
Nov 03 05:27:41 <cmonex> even that SD HTC method uses RSA key for the NBH file
Nov 03 05:27:46 <cmonex> it is well known from xda-devs forum
Nov 03 05:28:06 <cmonex> you can only crack the windows mobile pdas because the hw in the OS is easily accessible
Nov 03 05:28:29 <RyeBrye> Damn
Nov 03 05:29:08 <swetland> I've always wondered about that -- how does the haret.exe work?  does winmo just let anything run in supervisor mode or are there per version/device exploits for drivers or whatnot to accomplish that?
Nov 03 05:29:21 <cmonex> swetland it works because windows mobile lets you access anything
Nov 03 05:29:32 <phyburn> romainguy_, okay and finally how do I get the handler to run more than once becuase it set to only run once after 1 second
Nov 03 05:29:56 <romainguy_> phyburn: in the code that runs in the handler, just post the code again in the handler :))
Nov 03 05:30:08 <romainguy_> (and have something somewhere that makes it stop)
Nov 03 05:30:09 <muthu> phyburn: sendmessage(delayed) in handler#handlemessage()
Nov 03 05:30:21 <ErikT> If anybody's interested I wrote a small batch file to sign/verify apks, which I think pretty nify... http://erik.thauvin.net/wiki/x/AgCtAQ
Nov 03 05:30:40 <phyburn> romainguy_, ah okay
Nov 03 05:31:02 <phyburn> romainguy_, why does it need to return something? I just need whats inside clock() to run
Nov 03 05:31:15 <romainguy_> ErikT: cool, I did something similar in my Ant build files generated by activitycreator
Nov 03 05:31:15 <romainguy_> I should add that to the SDK
Nov 03 05:31:30 <romainguy_> phyburn: I never talked about returning anything
Nov 03 05:31:31 <muthu> yeah, we need that
Nov 03 05:31:46 <romainguy_> the Eclipse plugin will have a signing feature soon
Nov 03 05:31:48 <ErikT> I was going to do a ant file too, but this you can drag/drop files to, which is very nice.
Nov 03 05:32:10 <phyburn> romainguy_, so it doesn't matter if I ahve it return null?
Nov 03 05:32:14 <romainguy_> argh
Nov 03 05:32:15 <romainguy_> yes it does
Nov 03 05:32:25 <romainguy_> because you use that return value and pass it to the Handler
Nov 03 05:32:33 <romainguy_> but the Handler won't do anything with this "null" value
Nov 03 05:32:35 <muthu> ErikT: nooo.. we want a shell version ;)
Nov 03 05:32:50 <ErikT> I want and IDEA version, but that's me. ;-)
Nov 03 05:33:06 <romainguy_> phyburn: I agree with andyross, you should really step back a little, understand some basic concepts (like Threads, Runnable, Handler, etc.) and come back to tyour code
Nov 03 05:33:08 <muthu> hows IDEA 8?
Nov 03 05:33:09 <romainguy_> ErikT: me too
Nov 03 05:33:26 <ErikT> Didn't see anything about Android in the IDEA 8 announcement.
Nov 03 05:33:29 <romainguy_> ErikT: that's why I use activitycreator/ant files, I just bind a key shortcut to the reinstall target in IDEA
Nov 03 05:33:41 <muthu> yeah, they seem to avoid android
Nov 03 05:33:42 <romainguy_> there's not much else that I need actually
Nov 03 05:33:49 <phyburn> romainguy_, agg I got it all working normaly but when I tried to move it to android it failed =( but yeah Ill read up
Nov 03 05:33:51 <romainguy_> muthu: they probably have more important things to do
Nov 03 05:33:59 <muthu> agree
Nov 03 05:34:03 <RyeBrye> Hmm... I thought Google people said that they thought that this device would be hacked relatively quickly...
Nov 03 05:34:07 <RyeBrye> I guess they were being smug
Nov 03 05:34:18 <romainguy_> no, we just overestimated you guys :p
Nov 03 05:34:19 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: /me said he hoped it would be, so people can play with it.
Nov 03 05:34:28 <romainguy_> :runrun:
Nov 03 05:34:29 <ErikT> Are the XDA guys already working on it?
Nov 03 05:34:37 <ErikT> They know a lot about the boot loaders, etc.
Nov 03 05:34:44 <ErikT> but they're WinMo guys though.
Nov 03 05:34:50 <RyeBrye> I'm a n00b to phone hacking, so I'm not going to be super useful
Nov 03 05:35:08 <RyeBrye> I'm decent at ARM disassembly - but that doesn't seem to be relevant to this so far
Nov 03 05:35:20 <RyeBrye> (since we have the whole code for the OS, I don't think disassembly will matter anyway)
Nov 03 05:35:41 <cmonex> RyeBrye apparently we dont have code for the bootloader itself, not even the binary..
Nov 03 05:35:47 <RyeBrye> True
Nov 03 05:35:53 <RyeBrye> the HTC bootloader we lack code or a binary for
Nov 03 05:35:56 <ErikT> Don't think we have the SIM lock code. ;-)
Nov 03 05:36:03 <ErikT> That's what I want. ;-)
Nov 03 05:36:14 <cmonex> btw where did you deal with ARM before?
Nov 03 05:36:20 <RyeBrye> CHDK
Nov 03 05:36:23 <RyeBrye> canon camera tinkering
Nov 03 05:36:24 <cmonex> ErikT... in the very distant future :P
Nov 03 05:36:43 <cmonex> btw ErikT if you boot to this tricolour screen, what HBOOT and radio version do you have?
Nov 03 05:37:08 <cmonex> (use camera + power to get there)
Nov 03 05:37:10 <ttuttle> ErikT: 1. There's not one lock code. 2. It's just as hard as any other phone.
Nov 03 05:37:38 <RyeBrye> 3. It wont be worked on as hard as other phones since T-mobile will just give them out to most people who would care
Nov 03 05:39:14 <RyeBrye> Although that's not entirely true - I don't think we have the source for the radio stuff
Nov 03 05:40:46 <muthu> is resetting market download stats for new version normal?
Nov 03 05:41:06 <muthu> people are complainin about it
Nov 03 05:41:06 <romainguy_> yeah
Nov 03 05:41:10 <romainguy_> they come back after a while
Nov 03 05:41:18 <romainguy_> but the team's working on better support for this
Nov 03 05:41:18 <muthu> they come back?
Nov 03 05:41:21 <romainguy_> yeah
Nov 03 05:41:36 <muthu> the whole android market needs to be revamped
Nov 03 05:41:46 <muthu> take a look at slideme for reference ;)
Nov 03 05:42:11 <ErikT> Romain, is there a way to scroll the spinners using letters on the keyboard?
Nov 03 05:42:26 <romainguy_> not without expanding it
Nov 03 05:42:31 <romainguy_> and when it's expanded... not yet :)
Nov 03 05:43:45 <ErikT> I'd hate to have your to-do lists. ;-)
Nov 03 05:44:07 <romainguy_> you have no idea :)
Nov 03 05:44:31 <cmonex> RyeBrye: good luck trying to get hold of source for qualcomm radio crap
Nov 03 05:44:38 <cmonex> you wont even get the datasheets..
Nov 03 05:44:40 <cmonex> :/
Nov 03 05:44:48 <RyeBrye> What kind of processor does it run on?
Nov 03 05:44:54 <romainguy_> ErikT: patches welcome though ;-))
Nov 03 05:44:56 <RyeBrye> Isn't radio.img the piece that drives it?
Nov 03 05:45:12 <RyeBrye> If I knew how to load it into IDA pro, I could probably diassemble it
Nov 03 05:46:06 <RyeBrye> I just kind of guessed at how to load it - and there is a TON of strings in there identifiying the methods
Nov 03 05:47:03 <cmonex> RyeBrye: the ARM9 part of the MSM7201A
Nov 03 05:47:17 <cmonex> radio.img must first be split into partitions
Nov 03 05:47:25 <cmonex> seems standard qc radio to me, so i've done that already
Nov 03 05:47:45 <RyeBrye> cool
Nov 03 05:49:40 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Did you find the BREW ones? ;-)
Nov 03 05:50:21 <phyburn> romainguy_, andyross it makes me QQ that I open my book and start reading multithreading chap and it has examples of exactly what I've been trying to do the last two days =( lol
Nov 03 05:54:47 <gambler> romainguy_, if I want to put beanshell or groovy on the phone, which would you reccomend?
Nov 03 05:54:49 <gambler> All I need is Eval("import android.widget.*; public void DoX(Activity a) { /* misc ui code */ }"); to run ok.
Nov 03 05:55:11 <RyeBrye> what kernel version is android based on? 2.6.25.what?
Nov 03 05:56:55 <RyeBrye> andyross - do you work for google?
Nov 03 05:56:55 <spikebike> 2.6.25-01828-g18ac882
Nov 03 05:56:58 <RyeBrye> thanks
Nov 03 05:57:02 <spikebike> for rc19
Nov 03 05:57:59 <Damm> gosh people still run rc19?
Nov 03 05:58:59 * spikebike pleads to the OTA gods
Nov 03 05:59:50 <RyeBrye> spikebike - just do the SD card thing - much easier
Nov 03 05:59:54 <ttuttle> spikebike: yeah, SD++
Nov 03 06:00:01 <spikebike> yeah, tempting, even got an 8GB card in
Nov 03 06:00:07 * ttuttle has one too.  8 GB is nice.
Nov 03 06:00:16 <RyeBrye> it's easy
Nov 03 06:00:21 <RyeBrye> tons of us have done it
Nov 03 06:00:21 <spikebike> but I kinda want to upgrade to the best upgrade google/tmo has
Nov 03 06:00:22 <RyeBrye> no bricks
Nov 03 06:00:26 <RyeBrye> It's RC29
Nov 03 06:00:29 <ttuttle> yeah, it won't let you brick it
Nov 03 06:00:32 <ttuttle> oh btw i've got RC30 ;-)
Nov 03 06:00:37 <RyeBrye> What?
Nov 03 06:00:46 <ttuttle> (It's not out yet.  Remember, I'm a tester.)
Nov 03 06:00:48 <RyeBrye> RC30 isn't an OTA update though
Nov 03 06:00:57 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: For me it was.
Nov 03 06:00:59 <spikebike> if google posted the versions, feature, and a recommended version I'd do it
Nov 03 06:01:13 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - who did you sleep with?
Nov 03 06:01:18 <spikebike> I don't want to hear tomorrow that there's an issue and they stopped distributing RC29
Nov 03 06:01:19 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Nobody.
Nov 03 06:01:36 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: I was an intern this summer, so they sent me a free phone under the "friends and family" testing program.
Nov 03 06:01:46 <RyeBrye> lucky you
Nov 03 06:01:47 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: So I get "dogfood" builds so I can report bugs and stuff.
Nov 03 06:01:57 <spikebike> If I thought being on 3G would help I'd go hang out in a 3g area
Nov 03 06:01:58 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Yeah, it's pretty nice.
Nov 03 06:02:15 <ttuttle> spikebike: OTA works just as well over wifi as over 3G or EDGE.
Nov 03 06:02:19 <ttuttle> spikebike: It's faster, of course.
Nov 03 06:02:23 <spikebike> woah, wifi?
Nov 03 06:02:30 <RyeBrye> yeah
Nov 03 06:02:33 <RyeBrye> it's not really OTA
Nov 03 06:02:33 <ttuttle> spikebike: Um, yeah.
Nov 03 06:02:34 <spikebike> the g1 calls home occasionally?
Nov 03 06:02:38 <RyeBrye> Yep
Nov 03 06:02:47 <spikebike> ah, I had assumed it was cellular only
Nov 03 06:02:48 <RyeBrye> you can force it to call home all you want if you use anycut to put a shortcut to device info
Nov 03 06:02:55 <RyeBrye> No, but T-mobile thinks it is because they are retarded
Nov 03 06:03:14 <spikebike> and might calling home trigger an update?
Nov 03 06:03:17 <RyeBrye> well... not all of T-mobile thinks it is - but I saw a post where one support guy said it was
Nov 03 06:03:23 <RyeBrye> Yeah, it checks for updates
Nov 03 06:03:28 <RyeBrye> and if your number is up, it gives you one
Nov 03 06:03:35 <spikebike> ah, I'll pull up anycut
Nov 03 06:03:48 <spikebike> that would make my night
Nov 03 06:03:52 <Damm> 0there was actually a nice post on the xda-developers about the G1 calling home
Nov 03 06:03:57 <Damm> s/0//
Nov 03 06:03:58 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - did you have to sign any kind of NDA or something?
Nov 03 06:04:06 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Yeah.
Nov 03 06:04:15 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: I obviously can't share the builds.
Nov 03 06:04:20 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - Oh, so you probably can't sniff out the address of the next build :)
Nov 03 06:04:25 <Damm> ttuttle, dogfood is signed or nay?
Nov 03 06:04:26 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Nope.
Nov 03 06:04:31 <infobot> Damm meant: there was actually a nice post on the xda-developers about the G1 calling home
Nov 03 06:04:31 <RyeBrye> I wouldn't want the build - just the URL for the build :P
Nov 03 06:04:41 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Same thing, as far as suing me would be concerned.
Nov 03 06:04:51 <RyeBrye> yeah
Nov 03 06:04:54 <RyeBrye> probably true
Nov 03 06:04:59 <ttuttle> Damm: Of course it is signed.
Nov 03 06:05:08 <Damm> ttuttle, well your G1 might allow unsigned builds
Nov 03 06:05:16 <RyeBrye> his does
Nov 03 06:05:17 <ttuttle> Damm: Yes, it does.
Nov 03 06:05:18 <spikebike> I get checkin_success
Nov 03 06:05:25 <RyeBrye> yeah
Nov 03 06:05:31 <RyeBrye> it will say that unless your number is up
Nov 03 06:05:34 * Damm yawns and goes to bed
Nov 03 06:05:35 <RyeBrye> just do the SD card
Nov 03 06:05:41 <spikebike> there is a requested build type, what's that for?
Nov 03 06:05:52 <spikebike> (I.e. an empty field)
Nov 03 06:05:53 <RyeBrye> otherwise you might be waiting until November 12th or something for your USB notifier to appear
Nov 03 06:05:59 <RyeBrye> I don't know
Nov 03 06:06:03 <ttuttle> Do the SD card thing.
Nov 03 06:06:25 <spikebike> usb notifier?
Nov 03 06:06:25 <phyburn> what is the point in TextView(context) ? =(
Nov 03 06:06:39 * spikebike check's the wife phone
Nov 03 06:06:46 <RyeBrye> spikebike - you get a notifier when you plug the USB cable in
Nov 03 06:06:51 <RyeBrye> or a notification rather
Nov 03 06:06:57 <RyeBrye> that's really the only visible difference
Nov 03 06:07:08 <Damm> RyeBrye, I get better signal strength.
Nov 03 06:07:23 <RyeBrye> oh, and it also lies about signal strength now too ;)
Nov 03 06:07:33 <ttuttle> Oh?
Nov 03 06:07:38 <RyeBrye> j/k
Nov 03 06:07:46 <RyeBrye> I don't know what it does about signal strength
Nov 03 06:08:29 <ismarc> on USB it probably detects A/C power and ups the output power on the phone, which will give it a clearer signal back to the tower
Nov 03 06:08:33 <romainguy_> who was having issues with Red Alert 3 install code?
Nov 03 06:08:35 <spikebike> there's rumors of smoother
Nov 03 06:08:52 <spikebike> and I'd hope a few less bugs
Nov 03 06:09:01 <RyeBrye> I still see plenty of bugs
Nov 03 06:09:03 <spikebike> I'm hoping contact groups work
Nov 03 06:09:13 <spikebike> and switching from wifi <-> cellular and back
Nov 03 06:09:16 <RyeBrye> nope
Nov 03 06:09:21 <RyeBrye> that still doesn't seem to work properly
Nov 03 06:09:55 <RyeBrye> the home screen locks up for 30 seconds+ if you go from a browser with multiple windows open -> home screen
Nov 03 06:10:27 <RyeBrye> (if those windows are busy loading at least)
Nov 03 06:11:29 <spikebike> I'm pondering turing the g1 into a hardware authentication token
Nov 03 06:11:41 <ttuttle> spikebike: Oooh!
Nov 03 06:11:41 <Zigner> Is there anyone working on a tethering app?
Nov 03 06:11:51 <ttuttle> Zigner: No, it pretty much requires root access.
Nov 03 06:12:11 <gambler> Zigner, whats a tethering app?
Nov 03 06:12:34 <Zigner> gambler: using the phone like a modem.
Nov 03 06:12:47 * ttuttle 's Samsung Sync can do that.
Nov 03 06:12:55 <RyeBrye> any decent phone can do that
Nov 03 06:13:01 * ttuttle glares at RyeBrye.
Nov 03 06:13:02 <gambler> I disagree...pretty sure you can do it without root.
Nov 03 06:13:18 <RyeBrye> My piece of shit Sony Ericcson T610 that's worth $0.50 right now can tether over bluetooth
Nov 03 06:13:26 <ttuttle> gambler: You can pass arbitrary TCP/IP packets as a non-root user on Linux?
Nov 03 06:13:27 <RyeBrye> Sure, it's only EDGE - but I'm in an EDGE area only
Nov 03 06:13:42 <cmonex> heh, got a t610 here too.. but gprs only :O
Nov 03 06:13:47 <RyeBrye> oh
Nov 03 06:13:59 <RyeBrye> maybe it is gprs only... not edge - it was a long tie
Nov 03 06:14:00 <ismarc> Should be relatively simple to do without root, but you'd need a VPN like client for the computer
Nov 03 06:14:02 <tmzt> cmonex: hi
Nov 03 06:14:04 <RyeBrye> err long time ago
Nov 03 06:14:07 <gambler> ttuttle, is this a trick question? I say yes
Nov 03 06:14:19 <Zigner> is there a wiki up anywhere that has info other than the marketing fluff thats plastered all over the internet?
Nov 03 06:14:21 <RyeBrye> the point is - tethering isn't rocket science, and disabling it on the G1 sucks
Nov 03 06:14:23 <ttuttle> gambler: The answer is no, I think.
Nov 03 06:14:27 <cmonex> hi tmzt :D
Nov 03 06:14:33 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: So, T-Mobile sells unlimited Internet on the G1 for $25.
Nov 03 06:14:45 <tmzt> gambler: you have to be 100x or something
Nov 03 06:14:48 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: That's not intended for tethering, and the G1 is exclusive to T-Mobile, so why bother adding it?
Nov 03 06:14:59 <ismarc> Zigner: source.android.com is where I go when I have questions
Nov 03 06:15:01 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - I paid $
Nov 03 06:15:11 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: I totally understand that.
Nov 03 06:15:19 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: But why would T-Mobile want it to have tethering?
Nov 03 06:15:25 <tmzt> Zigner: like what information?
Nov 03 06:15:35 <RyeBrye> Why not charge extra for a tethering-capable plan?
Nov 03 06:15:45 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: Too complicated, and people will always try to cheat and use the cheap one.
Nov 03 06:15:57 <cmonex> american providers are weird..
Nov 03 06:16:08 <cmonex> in europe no one would think of disabling tethering
Nov 03 06:16:13 <ttuttle> cmonex: Yeah, sorry.
Nov 03 06:16:25 <ttuttle> cmonex: I wish it were different.
Nov 03 06:16:41 <cmonex> hmm..
Nov 03 06:16:51 <gambler> ismarc, yeah thats what I was thinking. You could probably use something like the OpenVPN client if you were lazy
Nov 03 06:16:52 <cmonex> someone said the phone is hackable to get root though no? :P
Nov 03 06:16:56 <RyeBrye> ttuttle - and it's not 'unlimited' - it's just got an undisclosed cap
Nov 03 06:16:57 <DarkriftX> lol, when i got my wizard i had no data plan
Nov 03 06:16:59 <Zigner> tmzt: things like, what devices do we have access to with the SDK, what hardware are we locked out of.
Nov 03 06:17:01 <DarkriftX> but i always had internet
Nov 03 06:17:11 <DarkriftX> free, never got a bill for it
Nov 03 06:17:12 <ttuttle> cmonex: Oh?  That would be news to me.
Nov 03 06:17:12 <RyeBrye> cmonex - no known root exploits exist yet
Nov 03 06:17:17 <ttuttle> DarkriftX: nice
Nov 03 06:17:22 <ismarc> gambler: It'd probably be easier than writing one the "right way"
Nov 03 06:17:43 <cmonex> ttuttle: i meant that some google dev hinted at the possibility
Nov 03 06:17:46 <ttuttle> I'm hoping for a root exploit, but unfortunately I can't help, as I wish to be employed by Google in the future.
Nov 03 06:17:47 <cmonex> dont know if that was a joke
Nov 03 06:17:52 <RyeBrye> they probably were joking
Nov 03 06:17:53 <DarkriftX> ttuttle, we think it had somthing to do with activating the sim in a cheap non data capable phone then moving it to the wizard
Nov 03 06:18:08 <ttuttle> cmonex: I think they were saying they expected someone to hack it.
Nov 03 06:18:10 <ttuttle> DarkriftX: Ah.
Nov 03 06:18:21 <ttuttle> DarkriftX: Then the phone company is dumb.  They only disable data if you have a data-capable phone?
Nov 03 06:18:29 <tmzt> you are basically asking for a root exploit in linux, this isn't windows ce
Nov 03 06:18:51 <RyeBrye> the problem with the root exploits is you also need to find a way to run it...
Nov 03 06:18:53 <ttuttle> Sure, but there are services that need to run as root.  It's likely possible, just *very* hard compared to WinCE.
Nov 03 06:19:17 <cmonex> wince got no security :)
Nov 03 06:19:31 <RyeBrye> I'm not sure which is easier - some kind of elevation of privileges exploit or hacking one of the root programs
Nov 03 06:19:45 <ttuttle> I'd guess the second, since the kernel has been around longer.
Nov 03 06:20:24 <RyeBrye> Well, there are plenty of root exploits that might work - but they probably use pieces that aren't used in the android kernel
Nov 03 06:20:24 <ismarc> tmzt: see http://www.milw0rm.com/exploits/5092, affects all kernels between 2.6.17 and 2.6.24.1...linux is not foolproof
Nov 03 06:20:50 <RyeBrye> is that the vmslice one?
Nov 03 06:20:53 <ismarc> yeah
Nov 03 06:21:01 <tmzt> this is 2.6.25
Nov 03 06:21:14 <ttuttle> I'm pretty sure they didn't ship a kernel with any known root exploits.
Nov 03 06:21:20 <tmzt> no one said that linux is perfect, just that you guys are looking for a root exploit
Nov 03 06:21:21 <Zigner> ismarc: I was just going to say: keep an eye on the patches & holes in the kernel..
Nov 03 06:21:50 <tmzt> you can put a ce device in SVC mode or even boot another os (like linux and android)
Nov 03 06:22:22 <p1mrx> well, it's not *just* a root exploit.  you do have physical access to the hardware.
Nov 03 06:22:32 <RyeBrye> Right
Nov 03 06:22:40 <tmzt> local exploit
Nov 03 06:22:42 <RyeBrye> but that doesn't do much good - it's not like you can swap the HD out or something
Nov 03 06:23:05 <RyeBrye> it does do some good, don't get me wrong - but it's not as helpful as it is with other more modular systems
Nov 03 06:23:55 <DarkriftX> ttuttle, not sure, but i didnt want to find out by asking them
Nov 03 06:23:57 <p1mrx> well, it's just the idea that it's theoretically possible for a remote system to not be exploitable.  for something you have physical access to, all you need is a perfect matter manipulator.
Nov 03 06:24:02 <spikebike> the difficulty is gaining root with android is exactly what would make it such a good authentication device
Nov 03 06:25:02 <spikebike> p1mrx even with  perfect matter manipulator all the phone would need is a instabrick when it detects the manipulator
Nov 03 06:25:17 <ismarc> I think if you really wanted to root it, it would be a hand-crafted (or code assisted crafted) dex file
Nov 03 06:25:38 <spikebike> well it's apossible to have a secure bootchain
Nov 03 06:25:41 <p1mrx> spikebike: so the first thing you manipulate is the instrabrick unit.  perfect matter manipulation isn't rocket science.
Nov 03 06:25:45 <ismarc> getting the right offsets would be hard, but would just take time
Nov 03 06:26:17 <RyeBrye> I wonder if the emulator would help at all with that
Nov 03 06:26:21 <cmonex> spikebike: great example for that is MSM7201 itself :P
Nov 03 06:26:23 <swetland> ismarc: system security does not actually depend on the vm in any way
Nov 03 06:26:39 <cmonex> it boots off a non modifiable chip, that only accepts signed image for second boot stage
Nov 03 06:26:41 <phyburn> how can I get TextView(context) to work in a class that implements Runnable (public class myclass implements Runnable{})
Nov 03 06:26:46 <swetland> the assumption is any app could make any syscall and that security must be enforced at the kernel/process level
Nov 03 06:26:47 <ismarc> swetland: I know, but because the file is expected to be in a "perfect" format, you could easily escalate privelages
Nov 03 06:27:40 <p1mrx> ismarc: that's like saying you can get root on $random_system by installing your own JRE
Nov 03 06:28:48 <ismarc> p1mrx: the difference is that with the dalvik vm, there's no just-in-time compiler, so it doesn't have any knowledge of the code except for what's given in the file
Nov 03 06:29:31 <p1mrx> but if the VM doesn't have root privileges, what good is breaking it?
Nov 03 06:30:26 <p1mrx> doesn't the android security model let you run compiled machine code anyway?
Nov 03 06:30:45 <RyeBrye> Yeah, JNI stuff
Nov 03 06:32:48 <spikebike> A friend heard that there's a group inside google working on a native SDK
Nov 03 06:32:52 <Zigner> ttuttl: Arn't applications allowed access to the internet ( via wifi and/or cell network ) ?
Nov 03 06:32:55 <spikebike> nfi if it will see the lgiht of day
Nov 03 06:37:02 <ttuttle> Zigner: Yes.
Nov 03 06:37:16 <ttuttle> Zigner: But they can only open regular sockets.
Nov 03 06:38:45 <Zigner> i'm looking through android.net.wifi, and it doesnt look like it will let you do much with it..
Nov 03 06:39:43 <DarkriftX> any google devs got an opinion on how the first breakthrough in hacking the g1 will come?
Nov 03 06:40:06 <cbeust> Sure: late
Nov 03 06:40:17 <DarkriftX> lol
Nov 03 06:40:28 <cbeust> I'm disappointed in the hacking community to be honest
Nov 03 06:40:34 <cbeust> thought it would already be hacked by now
Nov 03 06:40:47 <DarkriftX> what led you to that thought?
Nov 03 06:40:55 <DarkriftX> specific weakness?
Nov 03 06:41:03 <spikebike> it's not that hard to make it rather difficult to hack
Nov 03 06:41:07 <RyeBrye> Are you offended it's not being attacked as viciously as the iphone?
Nov 03 06:41:09 <cbeust> No, a complex system
Nov 03 06:41:11 <Zigner> I'm not real familiar with sockets programming - I'm geussing that means that you can't do any sort of routing with in/out packets?
Nov 03 06:41:26 <spikebike> even the iphone 3g just recently got fully hacked.. right?
Nov 03 06:41:36 <RyeBrye> no, it's still not unlocked in software
Nov 03 06:41:45 <DarkriftX> anyone who watches will notice the iphone's sales jump the week after they get jailbroken
Nov 03 06:41:58 <ttuttle> Zigner: No, you can just open sockets.
Nov 03 06:42:00 <DarkriftX> im hoping for the same
Nov 03 06:42:15 <DarkriftX> more ppl using android means more programs, more developers, more phones
Nov 03 06:42:38 <DarkriftX> i also know that lots of wm users use it because its easily hacked
Nov 03 06:42:55 <DarkriftX> give xda-devs a week and any htc wm phone can be reflashed
Nov 03 06:43:09 <RyeBrye> Yeah... too bad there isn't a WM version of the Dream
Nov 03 06:43:34 <spikebike> maybe we should all switch to a different htc phone ;-)
Nov 03 06:43:47 <spikebike> it woudl be ironic if a WM htc was the best android phone
Nov 03 06:44:07 <DarkriftX> i want android on my axim x51 :(
Nov 03 06:44:13 <DarkriftX> was told not to hold my breath
Nov 03 06:44:21 <cbeust> You mean an HTC phone currently running WM but reflashed with Android?
Nov 03 06:44:28 <RyeBrye> Yeah
Nov 03 06:44:31 <spikebike> yeah
Nov 03 06:44:41 <DarkriftX> cbeust, its been done twice now (not the reflashing though, using haret)
Nov 03 06:44:52 <swetland> the hard part is the last 10%
Nov 03 06:44:56 <spikebike> or maybe the treo pro (with the same qualcomm 7201 on board)
Nov 03 06:44:57 <DarkriftX> yeah
Nov 03 06:44:59 <swetland> getting power management to a production quality state, etc
Nov 03 06:45:10 <DarkriftX> pm and radio are the first failures
Nov 03 06:45:28 <DarkriftX> then usb poses a problem for lots
Nov 03 06:45:30 <swetland> which is trickier because currently the radio firmware is different between wm and linux
Nov 03 06:45:34 <Tauno> I see that you have been busy this weekend - > 400 new mails in android-x groups instead of the usual ~150 mails in the past weekends. The android dev.base is growing rapidly it seems :)
Nov 03 06:45:49 * Tauno goes off reading emails for the next 45 minutes...
Nov 03 06:47:57 <phyburn> what is the point of the context in: TextView(Context context)
Nov 03 06:48:08 <phyburn> the textview constructor*
Nov 03 06:48:58 <cbeust> Necessary to look up a bunch of stuff like themes
Nov 03 06:50:18 <phyburn> what would I put if I needed to use textview in "public class myClass implements Runnable"
Nov 03 06:50:36 <cbeust> Pass your activity
Nov 03 06:53:19 <Zigner> ttuttle: mind if i ask a few more q's about the socket library?
Nov 03 06:59:44 <RyeBrye> DarkriftX - still around?
Nov 03 06:59:50 <RyeBrye> you have the URL for that RC29 testing build version?
Nov 03 07:04:41 <RyeBrye> Any idea what size key the HTC key uses?
Nov 03 07:06:33 <phyburn> cbeust, I'm trying to past my activity but it doesn't seem to be working is it in the formate com.myactivity?
Nov 03 07:07:10 <cbeust> phyburn: it looks like you might need to read up on some Java basics, are you a beginner?
Nov 03 07:08:09 <cbeust> Also, take a look at the tutorial, they should help you
Nov 03 07:08:11 <phyburn> yeah but that's how I set my project up com.myactivity
Nov 03 07:22:07 <Tauno> phyburn, your com.myactivity class should extend  the class android.app.Activity -> then you can create a TextView from your com.myactivity class with new TextView(this). You might consider learning some JAVA and Android basics before :) http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Programming/BasicJava1/  and http://code.google.com/android/intro/hello-android.html are a start for example :)
Nov 03 07:34:12 <phyburn> Tauno, oh no I can access TextView  in my main class file because it extends Activity but I made anther class file for my runnable interface and I don't know how to access TextView my runnable class is http://pastebin.com/d131652c9
Nov 03 07:39:13 <Tauno> you have to pass the context (your Activity) to the clock class somehow.. and you also can't call setContentView() from this class since this is also a method from the Activity class
Nov 03 07:42:37 <phyburn> Tauno, Yeah I extended the activity class in that file i forgot to, but I don't know how to import the textview into the clock class =(
Nov 03 07:46:01 <Tauno> from where are you creating your clock class? If it's from your extendex Activity, then just call it like this: new Clock(this); and implement a constructor in the clock class: private Context context; public clock(Context context) { this.context = context;}..... and in your run method: TextView tv = new TextView(context);
Nov 03 07:48:07 <Tauno> but I still suggest that you read some Java beginners articles first as your code is ... messy (class names should begin with uppercase letters etc..). no offence :)
Nov 03 07:48:31 <phyburn> I always like makign the second word upper case such as clockClass
Nov 03 07:48:38 <phyburn> i think its easier to read=)
Nov 03 07:48:48 <phyburn> but yeah I'm still learnign!
Nov 03 07:49:42 <phyburn> Tauno, http://pastebin.com/d7624324c <-- see I just added public class clock extends Activity
Nov 03 07:50:21 <waldo_> i still don't get what this "runnable" thing is in java
Nov 03 07:50:23 <waldo_> is it just a thread?
Nov 03 07:50:35 <phyburn> its going to be a thread
Nov 03 07:50:56 <phyburn> its going to be a clock eventaully
Nov 03 07:52:44 <romainguy_> waldo_: a Runnable is just a way to pass a block of code to be run by other methods/classes/etc.
Nov 03 07:53:00 <romainguy_> because Java doesn't have method pointers or delegates, this is how it's done
Nov 03 07:54:08 <Tauno> phyburn as for the question - you can use the fields from your outer-class. Declare a field Context context; in your outer class and assign it a value of "this" when your outer class is constructed. then you can use TextView(context) in your inner class later on.. but this is a ugly thing :P
Nov 03 07:54:36 <phyburn> this hole things is one big ugly thing!!!
Nov 03 07:54:37 <phyburn> lol
Nov 03 07:54:40 <phyburn> but ill learn
Nov 03 07:55:05 <Tauno> phyburn you you also don't want to create a new TextView in your clock class every time.. create one in the outer class and just set the value in the run method
Nov 03 07:55:23 <waldo_> romainguy_: hmm  that sort of makes sense...
Nov 03 07:55:28 <Tauno> ...or something like that :)
Nov 03 07:55:33 <phyburn> Tauno, okay thanks soooo much!
Nov 03 07:56:19 <waldo_> romainguy_: I meant to ask you-- is there a way for an app to get a token to access a user's google info?  like if i wanted to write a stock ticker and wanted to autmoatically download the user's stock portfolio via the financial api but don't want to have to ask for a login/pass...?
Nov 03 07:56:33 <romainguy_> I have no idea
Nov 03 07:56:39 <romainguy_> you should ask on the Android Google Groups
Nov 03 07:56:50 <waldo_> okay..
Nov 03 07:57:04 <Chicago> Hi, Android isn't booting for me.
Nov 03 07:57:07 <phyburn> would it even allow such a thing? Seems like a security risk
Nov 03 07:57:27 <Chicago> I get pretty far with the init.rc... but it seems I need some device nodes or something.
Nov 03 07:57:51 <Chicago> Because the dmesg output keeps scrolling about android_power wakeup
Nov 03 07:58:35 <romainguy_> phyburn: if it's possible, I'm sure you need to ask for a permission anyway
Nov 03 07:59:09 <Chicago> Also, I used out/target/product/generic/data and out/target/product/generic/system directly on my sdcard with the ramdisk extraced onto the root of the sdcard.
Nov 03 08:00:10 <Chicago> In the init.rc I also had to commend out the 'mount yaffs2 mtd@system lines.
Nov 03 08:00:25 <Chicago> Because /system is on the sdroot.
Nov 03 08:00:53 <ionstorm> how do you get read access to locked dir's
Nov 03 08:01:14 <ionstorm> yo, bitchx works nicely with the ssh app
Nov 03 08:01:22 <ionstorm> ;]
Nov 03 08:01:51 <spikebike> as does irssi
Nov 03 08:02:29 <ionstorm> gotta try that, havnt messed with irssi, been a long time bx user
Nov 03 08:03:42 <ionstorm> it'll be pimp once a XDMCP client works for droid
Nov 03 08:04:29 <Chicago> Why isn't playmp3 included in the Android build? init.rc calls it for bootsound.
Nov 03 08:05:59 <umdk1d3> ionstorm: are you using the latest svn of connectbot?  ;)
Nov 03 08:06:08 <umdk1d3> there were some scrolling bugs fixed since the market version
Nov 03 08:06:22 <ionstorm> yea
Nov 03 08:08:14 <ionstorm> it would be pimp if I could use the g1 as a stumbler, but the wifi is sketchy
Nov 03 08:09:13 <Chicago> How do I turn debugging traces on for Android, so I can figure out why init.rc isn't starting android?
Nov 03 08:12:35 <ionstorm> is their a process manager in the works?  Or any sites worth watching with some tight upcomming droid apps?
Nov 03 08:13:24 <ionstorm> I wish I had a cmd line in droid, id love to code some neat c apps, instead I gotta learn java ugh
Nov 03 08:18:33 <Chicago> ionstrom: One should be able to ssh into the droid using dropbear, right?
Nov 03 08:22:07 <ionstorm> yea, but how would u get it on there
Nov 03 08:22:29 <phyburn> Tauno, yeah I don't think it liked the whole Context context; in the extender Activity class it just crashes when it gets to it in the Runnable class
Nov 03 08:22:43 <ionstorm> I need to spend more time trying to hack this thing
Nov 03 08:22:53 <Chicago> Well, I compiled Android from source over the weekend and am trying to boot it with haret.exe... but I saw dropbear compiled while android builds... so that means the sshd is being built.
Nov 03 08:23:17 <umdk1d3> can the user process touch anywhere on a yaffs partition, so that they can +x it?  (prolly not on the FAT sdcard)
Nov 03 08:23:24 <umdk1d3> *dropbear that is
Nov 03 08:23:40 <Tauno> romainguy_ the Android app model doesn't support a "exit" paradigm, right? You also said that "No matter what you do, do not put a "quit" or "exit" application button." <- my app uses a net connection and the users want to be able to close the app so that they can be sure that it does not use data anymore.. how does that usecase fit into the Android design? :)
Nov 03 08:24:17 <roxfan> put a "disconnect" button?
Nov 03 08:24:23 <ionstorm> why doesnt the apps have an exit button? thats retarded
Nov 03 08:25:47 <ionstorm> Chicago, I dont see any reasons why anything wont run as long as u get it compiled and on the device
Nov 03 08:26:19 <Chicago> I have some anything over here that doesn't run and is compiled and on the device.
Nov 03 08:26:52 <Chicago> Basically, I can't get graphics starting after the zImage and ramdisk.img are going through init.rc.
Nov 03 08:33:18 <ionstorm> cprog.exe must be killed to make haret framebuffer work
Nov 03 08:37:25 <waldo_> I don't think it's a good idea to not have a "quit" button.  I find it very unnatural that you can't quit things actually
Nov 03 08:38:14 <ionstorm> yea, it freaks me out a bit
Nov 03 08:38:15 <ionstorm> lol
Nov 03 08:38:27 <waldo_> for the reason you just said tauno.  I mean I guess you could have a "log out" or "end session" button or something.. but I want to feel like an app is running until I tell it to stop
Nov 03 08:38:47 <waldo_> unfortunately stuff gets shut off all the time that I wanted to stay around..
Nov 03 08:38:53 <waldo_> like connectbot sessions
Nov 03 08:39:28 <waldo_> it's like... is android sacrificing connectbot to preserve the android market stuff?  cuz I want to be able to prioritize those things
Nov 03 08:39:53 <umdk1d3> waldo_: it should keep those backend services running as long as possible
Nov 03 08:39:56 <waldo_> if I go connectbot to the browser to the contact list...
Nov 03 08:40:03 <umdk1d3> but it will sacrifice them if needed
Nov 03 08:40:04 <waldo_> how does it know which are the "important" ones?
Nov 03 08:40:33 <waldo_> if I go connectbot to three other important things I want it to preserve connectbot not something trivial
Nov 03 08:40:37 <Tauno> well, I already have a "log out" button and that does indeed logout the user. I guess a "disconnect" button is more appropriate in my case then.. since disconnect and logout are fundamentally different things
Nov 03 08:40:49 <waldo_> but it has no way of knowing what I consider important.
Nov 03 08:41:16 <waldo_> i wish "nice" was supported
Nov 03 08:41:25 <waldo_> or something like that
Nov 03 08:41:49 <ionstorm> htop/top would be chill
Nov 03 08:41:52 <ionstorm> as well
Nov 03 08:42:03 <waldo_> there is a session viewer
Nov 03 08:42:13 <waldo_> or process viewer someone wrote
Nov 03 08:42:26 <ionstorm> yea I saw that
Nov 03 08:42:46 <ionstorm> what is the best place now to find new non-market apps
Nov 03 08:42:57 <waldo_> hey umdk1d3 have you considered-- and I talked to michaelnovakjr about this-- non ssh additions to connectbot?  like a "ping" connect type instead of ssh ?
Nov 03 08:43:34 <waldo_> ionstorm: there's an rss feed...
Nov 03 08:43:34 <ionstorm> I think he should create a remote desktop client for android
Nov 03 08:43:39 <ionstorm> that would be hella chill
Nov 03 08:43:43 <waldo_> vnc?
Nov 03 08:43:55 <ionstorm> waldo_ which one
Nov 03 08:44:05 <waldo_> http://andappstore.com
Nov 03 08:44:12 <ionstorm> yea vnc or remote desktop
Nov 03 08:44:21 <waldo_> vnc would be nice and platform independent
Nov 03 08:44:24 <umdk1d3> waldo_: a ping connect type?
Nov 03 08:44:26 <ionstorm> rdpv5
Nov 03 08:45:03 <ionstorm> rdp would be way popular for wind0ze users
Nov 03 08:45:25 <waldo_> umdk1d3: like what I mean is-- right now you have those saved sessions in your listview when yous tart up-- each is an ssh session w/settings... what if you could add to those other services.. such as ping@IP.Ad.re.ss and have unique settings.. mike seemed interested in writing a patch for connectbot
Nov 03 08:45:32 <ionstorm> login to wind0ze via terminal services
Nov 03 08:45:40 <waldo_> not to bloat it too much but might be nice
Nov 03 08:46:13 <umdk1d3> hmm
Nov 03 08:46:16 <waldo_> ionstorm: I have a mac.. never even seen rdt
Nov 03 08:46:21 <ionstorm> ah
Nov 03 08:46:22 <umdk1d3> but that wouldnt have anything to do with ssh, right?
Nov 03 08:46:48 <waldo_> umdk1d3: nothing whatsoever... just taking advantage of the UI basically
Nov 03 08:47:05 <ionstorm> http://www.rdesktop.org/ <-- rdp source rdesktop is an open source client for Windows Terminal Services, capable of natively speaking Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP) in order to present the user's Windows desktop. Supported servers include Windows 2000 Server, Windows Server 2003, Windows Server 2008, Windows XP, Windows Vista and Windows NT Server 4.0.
Nov 03 08:47:09 <ionstorm> etc etc
Nov 03 08:48:23 <ionstorm> the ability to login to any desktop from your phone anywhere would be majorly chill
Nov 03 08:48:49 <ionstorm> vnc/rdp/ssh/telnet all in one client
Nov 03 08:49:43 <gambler> couldnt you just look at your desktop through a pinhole camera instead?
Nov 03 08:50:00 * gambler looks around for some cardboard
Nov 03 08:50:22 <umdk1d3> ooh ionstorm if only they had a java port  ;)
Nov 03 08:51:14 <ionstorm> umdk1d3, http://properjavardp.sourceforge.net/
Nov 03 08:51:53 <umdk1d3> AWESOME  =D
Nov 03 08:52:49 <ionstorm> umdk1d3,  this one too http://www.elusiva.com/opensource/
Nov 03 08:53:04 <DarkriftX> RyeBrye, did you find it?
Nov 03 08:53:16 <languish> <gambler> couldnt you just look at your desktop through a pinhole camera instead?
Nov 03 08:53:17 <DarkriftX> i cant now and i wanted to dl a copy
Nov 03 08:53:32 <languish> isn't that what we're doing with many web pages
Nov 03 08:53:35 <languish> :|
Nov 03 08:53:41 <ionstorm> umdk1d3, wget http://www.elusiva.com/opensource/downloads/JavaRDP1.1.tgz
Nov 03 08:54:00 <ionstorm> wget for android would be chill too, also a ftp client
Nov 03 08:54:29 <waldo_> we need vnc more than rdp I think... having a mac and all :)
Nov 03 08:54:34 <umdk1d3> hmm i wonder if the browser launches its downloads as an intent or forces them to be handled by internal download manager
Nov 03 08:54:42 <languish> actually, I'd like to see michaelnovakjr's Glance include an ftp client
Nov 03 08:54:43 <waldo_> does the browser do ftp://
Nov 03 08:54:50 <gambler> languish, yeah good point. I hope any websites I use ahve a mobile optimised version
Nov 03 08:54:51 <waldo_> languish: exactly I was just thinking that
Nov 03 08:55:03 <languish> :|
Nov 03 08:55:16 * languish leaves while he's ahead for the night
Nov 03 08:55:24 <ionstorm> yea combine them eventually
Nov 03 08:55:26 <waldo_> do a splitscreen file browser remote and local
Nov 03 08:55:45 <waldo_> man we need so much
Nov 03 08:55:46 <ionstorm> i wonder  when opera will finish their browser for android
Nov 03 08:55:53 <waldo_> it's like open season on this platform right now
Nov 03 08:56:18 <waldo_> does anyone have a phone in front of them?  Can you try ftp://something
Nov 03 08:56:24 <languish> sure
Nov 03 08:56:27 <ionstorm> k
Nov 03 08:56:34 <languish> gimme a short public ftp addy
Nov 03 08:56:35 <waldo_> i'm curious if it handles it
Nov 03 08:56:36 <waldo_> umm
Nov 03 08:56:40 <waldo_> mozilla let me see
Nov 03 08:57:04 <waldo_> ftp://ftp.mozilla.org
Nov 03 08:57:15 <waldo_> http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/
Nov 03 08:57:23 <waldo_> does it handle ftp?
Nov 03 08:57:30 <umdk1d3> eh just appears to launch it as a google search
Nov 03 08:57:39 <waldo_> oh..
Nov 03 08:57:54 <alokb_> Hello, can anybody tell me if the HTC dream supports DUN bluetooth profile?
Nov 03 08:57:56 <waldo_> FUSE would be cool... i think that needs kernel patches
Nov 03 08:57:58 <umdk1d3> oooh VERY interesting, its reported as source=android-chrome
Nov 03 08:57:59 <ionstorm> yea opens google search
Nov 03 08:58:10 <waldo_> so no ftp
Nov 03 08:58:14 <umdk1d3> *the google search url, this is separate from ft
Nov 03 08:58:16 <waldo_> let me find an ftp client in java
Nov 03 08:58:16 <umdk1d3> *ftp
Nov 03 08:58:17 <languish> yeah it launched a google search from the go to, then the top search is an ftp.mozilla.org web link
Nov 03 08:58:22 <languish> which it does go to
Nov 03 08:58:40 <ionstorm> a torrent client would BE AWESOME
Nov 03 08:58:40 <waldo_> I guess if you can find a web->ftp proxy
Nov 03 08:58:40 <ionstorm> lol
Nov 03 08:58:50 <languish> yeah I used Go To url in the browser itself
Nov 03 08:58:59 * languish shoots ionstorm
Nov 03 08:59:20 <languish> BAD accelerated particle mass BAD
Nov 03 08:59:28 <waldo_> ftp java client libraries reviewed http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-04-2003/jw-0404-ftp.html
Nov 03 08:59:33 <alokb_> npelly2: u around ?
Nov 03 08:59:38 <ionstorm> even better a nzb client like sabnzbd
Nov 03 09:00:27 <languish> I'd liek to start with a better application manager :|
Nov 03 09:00:33 <languish> go from there
Nov 03 09:00:49 <ionstorm> definately
Nov 03 09:00:56 <languish> back to catching up on my tv eps
Nov 03 09:01:01 <waldo_> there should be some prioritizing.. it seems basic net tools, vnc.  .doc/.pdf/.txt viewer
Nov 03 09:01:13 <ionstorm> pdf viewer is a must
Nov 03 09:01:24 <ionstorm> im sure thats in the works
Nov 03 09:01:35 <waldo_> at google?
Nov 03 09:01:36 <waldo_> or someone?
Nov 03 09:01:42 <ionstorm> it would be tight if that browser could view those
Nov 03 09:02:19 <ionstorm> im so suprised google docs doesnt work yet for the g1
Nov 03 09:02:21 <waldo_> btw-- quick review of the "invisible sheild" if anyone was considering it... it's okay.  Make the phone feel solid.. like I could throw it at a wall..  a little tacky...
Nov 03 09:02:35 <ionstorm> i just ordered the shield
Nov 03 09:02:38 <waldo_> application was kinda stressful
Nov 03 09:02:39 <ionstorm> its good?
Nov 03 09:02:42 <waldo_> yeah it's not bad
Nov 03 09:03:11 <waldo_> it makes the phone feel like it's been dipped in the kind of plastic they coat upholstery with at Dennys
Nov 03 09:03:32 <waldo_> it's like S&M for your phone.. and it's weird how it shrink-wraps it
Nov 03 09:03:38 <ionstorm> lol, is the invisible shield reusable?
Nov 03 09:03:45 <waldo_> bubbles and fingerprints and stuff are gone after 24 hours
Nov 03 09:03:49 <waldo_> I dunno
Nov 03 09:03:53 <waldo_> I haven't taken it off
Nov 03 09:04:11 <ionstorm> is the whole phone covered?
Nov 03 09:04:14 <waldo_> I guess you peel it off to get it off.. I think that would undo the glue stuff
Nov 03 09:04:16 <waldo_> yeah the whole phone
Nov 03 09:04:17 <waldo_> every side
Nov 03 09:04:21 <waldo_> top bottom everything
Nov 03 09:04:28 <waldo_> I kinda fucked up the corners
Nov 03 09:04:44 <waldo_> it's only been 24 hours and supposedly it'll tighten up even more
Nov 03 09:04:47 <waldo_> but it feels really rugged now
Nov 03 09:04:52 <ionstorm> i hope I dont fuck mine up when it gets here
Nov 03 09:04:52 <waldo_> very strange because it felt so delicate before
Nov 03 09:04:53 <ionstorm> lol
Nov 03 09:05:12 <waldo_> make sure you're in a lint & dust free area
Nov 03 09:05:27 <waldo_> tehre's a teensy tiny fleck of dust under mine and it bothered me for about 20 minutes
Nov 03 09:05:30 <waldo_> I think I'll have to get over it
Nov 03 09:05:39 <ionstorm> i got this small issue with my screen tapping against the keypad at the top left by the htc symbol
Nov 03 09:05:58 <waldo_> it's like your phone is in a clear wetsuit really strange.
Nov 03 09:06:06 <ionstorm> lol
Nov 03 09:06:12 <DarkriftX> RyeBrye, you around?
Nov 03 09:08:13 <phyburn> woot! it took all weekend but I got my clock running!
Nov 03 09:09:55 <umdk1d3> waldo_: is there pics anywhere of it?  i mean, the kbd still opens right?
Nov 03 09:14:58 <waldo_> yeah yeah the keyboard opens fine
Nov 03 09:15:17 <waldo_> i think zagg.com has pix of the shape..  youtube has videos of the plastic and how it works
Nov 03 09:15:38 <waldo_> i'd take pix but all i ahve is the camera to take pix with
Nov 03 09:16:06 <phyburn> romainguy_, how can I have multipul handlers going at once, if I have the first one loop forever? =p
Nov 03 09:16:14 <phyburn> loops*
Nov 03 09:51:56 <mharkus> hi folks..just new here :)
Nov 03 09:52:02 <kIDDAI> lo
Nov 03 10:00:09 <Rioting101> Morning.
Nov 03 10:41:48 <wizkoder> hy everybody
Nov 03 10:54:01 <invain> hi
Nov 03 11:04:34 <languish> is it possible to initiate a gtalk conference from the android IM app's google talk function?
Nov 03 11:05:21 <languish> i don't want to set up multiple accounts just to test it :|
Nov 03 11:05:38 <languish> ... or bother people to mess with it.
Nov 03 11:08:55 <spikebike> er
Nov 03 11:09:03 <andatche> anyone know if the beeb has plans for iplayer on android? are there any drm issues to get around?
Nov 03 11:09:04 <spikebike> once you chat someone, you can add people to that chat
Nov 03 11:09:17 <neekers> hey languish
Nov 03 11:27:37 <ascii__> I am confused here, maybe someone can clear this up for me. I've got a list of parcelable objects, which i want to save in onsaveinstancestate, so that when the keyboard is opened, my listview is still the same..but it doesn't write to parcel when i open keyboard, only when i start a new activity..why?
Nov 03 11:38:44 <languish> spikebike, cool thanks. I know it works with the desktop client, wasn't sure if it would with the g1 client
Nov 03 11:38:49 <languish> heya neekers
Nov 03 11:39:15 <spikebike> it's on the menu anyways
Nov 03 11:39:21 <spikebike> on the g1
Nov 03 11:40:34 <languish> ahh i see it now. have to be in an active chat, can't send out multiple conference requests
Nov 03 11:40:41 <languish> (simultaneously)
Nov 03 11:40:50 <spikebike> right
Nov 03 11:48:47 <eleftherios> my wifi is connected, yet there is a little 'x' on the icon on top. Any ideas?
Nov 03 11:48:51 <eleftherios> on a G1 that is
Nov 03 11:49:02 <spikebike> no cellular?
Nov 03 11:49:11 <spikebike> on the 4 bar display?
Nov 03 11:52:01 <eleftherios> spikebike: yes, on the 4 bar display
Nov 03 11:52:12 <eleftherios> there is a tiny 'x' on top of the first bar
Nov 03 11:52:14 <spikebike> so you don't have a cellular signal
Nov 03 11:52:22 <eleftherios> oh that's the cellular
Nov 03 11:52:28 <eleftherios> the wifi times out all the time
Nov 03 11:52:36 <eleftherios> it works fine on my iphone and on my laptop
Nov 03 11:52:41 <eleftherios> (which I use now)
Nov 03 11:52:46 <spikebike> often when the screen goes black it turns the wifi off
Nov 03 11:52:57 <eleftherios> but on the G1 most pages time out
Nov 03 11:53:03 <spikebike> oh, strange
Nov 03 11:53:04 <eleftherios> (e.g. yahoo.com)
Nov 03 11:53:08 <spikebike> I've not had that
Nov 03 11:53:13 <eleftherios> spikebike: no, with screen on
Nov 03 11:53:31 <spikebike> oh, hrm, activate wifi, then reboot see if it changes
Nov 03 11:53:40 <eleftherios> it says poor signal strength while iPhone and laptop get 80% signal
Nov 03 11:53:44 <eleftherios> spikebike: I tried that
Nov 03 11:53:51 <anno^da_> Oh my god they pay >600 EUR for getting a G1 in Germany at eBay ... damn fools :/
Nov 03 11:54:03 <spikebike> the wifi and cellular displays are different
Nov 03 11:54:17 <spikebike> one is bars the other is little semi circles
Nov 03 11:54:25 <eleftherios> spikebike: yes, I am talking about the wifi now
Nov 03 11:54:26 <muthu_> anno^da_: is there another option?
Nov 03 11:54:45 <eleftherios> anno^da_: I don't think is worth paying more that 200 euro for the G1
Nov 03 11:54:54 <anno^da_> eleftherios: true
Nov 03 11:54:58 <eleftherios> it is a flaky phone
Nov 03 11:56:46 <anno^da_> The problem is that every little software company here in Germany pays every price to get one :/
Nov 03 11:57:16 <anno^da_> swetland: Are you available ?
Nov 03 12:09:04 <eleftherios> also, bad fonts
Nov 03 12:56:56 <xyzzy_bill> anno^da: I'm up to speed with my G1 now, and I've dumped my iPhone.  The G1 software is a solid competitor to iPhone, but the G1 phone sucks in comparison.  The screen is much smaller, the phone is much thicker, and just not as nicely done as say a Razor or iPhone.  I may upgrade when classier Android phones come out.
Nov 03 13:09:30 <Dougie187> Touch Pro is available online for sprint!
Nov 03 13:13:01 <Dougie187> its $300 though
Nov 03 13:13:08 <Dougie187> google, you have to get sprint to take the g1...
Nov 03 13:13:10 <Dougie187> :(
Nov 03 13:14:26 <anno^da_> They have to get affordable devices to non US and UK countries :/
Nov 03 13:15:28 <anno^da_> It is such a mess having to pay > 500 EUR to get a G1 for developing :(
Nov 03 13:16:35 <gambler> anno^da_, Ive heard rumours from reliable sources that developer phones are on their way.
Nov 03 13:16:53 <anno^da_> I know that. swetland spoke about that last week.
Nov 03 13:17:01 <anno^da_> But the question is how long will it take.
Nov 03 13:17:01 <gambler> oh cool
Nov 03 13:17:33 <anno^da_> I cant wait another 2 months.  (just my assumption how long it will take :/ )
Nov 03 13:17:33 <gambler> yeah I know :/
Nov 03 13:19:17 <Delvien> fdcdcf
Nov 03 13:19:29 <Delvien> anyone there./?
Nov 03 13:22:13 <thoraxe> ohai
Nov 03 13:23:14 <anno^da_> gambler: what have you heart about the developer version ?
Nov 03 13:24:59 <gambler> anno^da_, I heard google is trying to source some phones. They havent got any yet because the stores are gobbling them up
Nov 03 13:25:18 <gambler> When they do, we will feel some non-US developer love
Nov 03 13:29:27 <Tauno> depending who gets them :) I hope it's not some weird "you can get one if you are rich" thing again.. (a'la the app developers who got their apps to the market before official launch) :(
Nov 03 13:29:59 <Dougie187> i just want more android phones.
Nov 03 13:30:02 <Dougie187> on other carriers...
Nov 03 13:30:36 <gambler> Dougie187, dont we all. Id never buy the G1 if I didnt need it for my project.
Nov 03 13:30:49 <Dougie187> i would, if it was on sprint..
Nov 03 13:30:50 <Dougie187> lol
Nov 03 13:30:54 <gambler> I like slider style phones
Nov 03 13:32:01 <Dougie187> i want one with a qwerty keyboard
Nov 03 13:33:26 * gambler wonders if the BT supports the HID spec
Nov 03 13:36:48 <michaelnovakjr> yawn
Nov 03 13:37:18 <Dougie187> good morning michaelnovakjr
Nov 03 13:37:24 <michaelnovakjr> good morning
Nov 03 13:37:37 <Dougie187> hows it going?
Nov 03 13:37:42 <michaelnovakjr> not too bad
Nov 03 13:37:49 <michaelnovakjr> i put Glance on the Market last night
Nov 03 13:37:51 <Dougie187> hey do you know if there is a repo for picasa?
Nov 03 13:37:57 <Dougie187> Glance? Your File browser?
Nov 03 13:37:58 <michaelnovakjr> not sure
Nov 03 13:38:00 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Nov 03 13:38:13 <Dougie187> thats pretty cool
Nov 03 13:38:16 <Dougie187> is the market sweet?
Nov 03 13:38:29 <michaelnovakjr> i like it so far
Nov 03 13:39:58 <andatche> ooh, glance looks a bit nicer than the other file manager on the market
Nov 03 13:40:04 <Dougie187> can you track how many downloads you get?
Nov 03 13:40:15 <michaelnovakjr> Dougie187: yes
Nov 03 13:40:20 <michaelnovakjr> andatche: thanks :)
Nov 03 13:40:25 <Dougie187> thats pretty cool
Nov 03 13:40:30 <michaelnovakjr> its going to receive a few updates soon
Nov 03 13:40:31 <Dougie187> how many do you have so far?
Nov 03 13:40:32 <Dougie187> lol
Nov 03 13:40:35 <andatche> are there any plans for flikr/picasa uploading?
Nov 03 13:40:50 <andatche> michaelnovakjr: seems to have everything the other one was lacking :)
Nov 03 13:40:54 <andatche> and looks a bit nicer to boot
Nov 03 13:41:00 <Dougie187> andatche: someone is probably working on it somewhere... but if you want it you might start developing it.
Nov 03 13:41:00 <michaelnovakjr> thanks
Nov 03 13:41:21 * andatche is working on an mpd frontend atm
Nov 03 13:41:25 <michaelnovakjr> the other, pardon my language, asshole is selling the Android File Manager on handago.com for $9.99
Nov 03 13:41:48 <Dougie187> that sucks.
Nov 03 13:41:49 <andatche> oh really? it was free when I downloaded it
Nov 03 13:41:53 <andatche> since removed it though
Nov 03 13:41:53 <`vip> anyone tried Trak yet ?
Nov 03 13:41:53 <Dougie187> how long did it take you to write it?
Nov 03 13:41:54 <`vip> looks nice
Nov 03 13:42:02 <michaelnovakjr> Dougie187: me?
Nov 03 13:42:13 <Dougie187> yeah
Nov 03 13:42:28 <michaelnovakjr> i wrote it back in july, it took about a week to update
Nov 03 13:42:42 <Dougie187> how long did it take you to write in july?
Nov 03 13:42:46 <michaelnovakjr> a few days
Nov 03 13:42:48 <michaelnovakjr> tops
Nov 03 13:42:51 <Dougie187> nice
Nov 03 13:43:01 <michaelnovakjr> it was around the same time i wrote the SMS app for the vogue
Nov 03 13:43:01 <Dougie187> well you are keeping up with your original promise i guess.
Nov 03 13:43:02 <Dougie187> lol
Nov 03 13:43:05 <andatche> I'm actually using pmix as a base for my mpd frontend, but it's old so most of it doesn't work on the latest sdk
Nov 03 13:43:24 <michaelnovakjr> :) Dougie187 yea my stuff's all going to be free and open source
Nov 03 13:43:51 <andatche> same as that :)
Nov 03 13:43:51 <Dougie187> well i mean, when you and jasta use to say that you would rewrite all the apps people release and make it open source.
Nov 03 13:43:52 <`vip> wtf @ 9.99 ... how much do apps run for on the App Store ?
Nov 03 13:44:02 <michaelnovakjr> Dougie187: absolutely :)
Nov 03 13:44:06 <Dougie187> `vip: its the devs choice.
Nov 03 13:44:07 <andatche> `vip: free atm
Nov 03 13:44:23 <`vip> andatche App Store (iPhone)
Nov 03 13:44:27 <andatche> ohh right
Nov 03 13:44:28 <`vip> trying to get a comparison
Nov 03 13:44:40 <michaelnovakjr> `vip: the Android Market only accepts free apps at the moment
Nov 03 13:44:47 <`vip> yeah i know :P
Nov 03 13:44:53 <michaelnovakjr> but that dev is selling it on another site
Nov 03 13:44:59 <`vip> but you said the one dev put his app on handango for 9.99
Nov 03 13:45:09 <michaelnovakjr> i don't quite get that, but I would expect to see if disappear off the market soon
Nov 03 13:45:13 <`vip> SO i was asking to see how much things run for on the App Store
Nov 03 13:45:17 <michaelnovakjr> `vip: that is right
Nov 03 13:45:22 <michaelnovakjr> :) it varies
Nov 03 13:45:24 <`vip> for a comparison
Nov 03 13:45:26 <`vip> ah ok
Nov 03 13:45:29 <michaelnovakjr> my stuff will be free :)_
Nov 03 13:46:32 <kslater> yikes! is the browser for android really 14M or is some of that cache?
Nov 03 13:46:41 <Tauno> I'll plan to offer two versions of my apps also - one free and the other $x.. so people have a choice :P
Nov 03 13:46:59 <michaelnovakjr> nah, i'm writing all my stuff free and open source
Nov 03 13:47:23 <michaelnovakjr> i'm looking forward to competing with paid apps :)
Nov 03 13:47:25 <Tauno> michaelnovakjr, I hope you have a day job then :)
Nov 03 13:47:39 <michaelnovakjr> especially those hello world app for $10 bucks :)
Nov 03 13:47:44 <michaelnovakjr> Tauno: i do :)
Nov 03 13:48:02 <michaelnovakjr> be back... reboot
Nov 03 13:48:44 <andatche> kslater: most of it will be cache
Nov 03 13:48:45 <anno^da_> gambler: thanks for the information on the dev phone.
Nov 03 13:49:23 <anno^da_> I just think that they will send it out to some ADC winners or something like that. So nothing reliable for the developers.
Nov 03 13:50:24 <Delvien> so... tmobile internwet is down but i can still ssh to my server 18 miles away....
Nov 03 13:50:46 <Delvien> internet*
Nov 03 13:51:08 <andatche> 3G seems find here in shef
Nov 03 13:52:07 <andatche> michaelnovakjr: glance is loads better :)
Nov 03 13:52:22 <michaelnovakjr> thanks :)
Nov 03 13:52:44 <michaelnovakjr> i've got updates to the icons and the ability to open files in their respective apps coming this week
Nov 03 13:52:58 <michaelnovakjr> also going to allow the user to set a default directory for when the app loads
Nov 03 13:54:10 <Tauno> anybody up for some dev talk? :P I'm a little confused about ListViews - they have inbuilt filtering (at least the UI as it seems) but am I really supposed to handle every keypress myself and then just call the method with the String parameter? isn't the listview able to handle keypresses itself so I can just call something like listView.keyPressed(event, keycode)? :)
Nov 03 13:54:23 <gambler> anno^da_, np...I feel your pain.
Nov 03 13:54:47 <andatche> michaelnovakjr: cool, being able to open files would be most useful
Nov 03 13:54:53 <michaelnovakjr> definitely
Nov 03 13:55:01 <andatche> some sort of text editor would be handy too
Nov 03 13:55:15 <andatche> may have to write one when I have this mpc finished
Nov 03 13:55:18 <michaelnovakjr> i'm looking into that, i saw one on the store, going to see how good it is
Nov 03 13:55:51 <michaelnovakjr> Tauno: not really
Nov 03 13:56:00 <andatche> I wonder if there are any plans to allow apps to be installed to the SD card too
Nov 03 13:56:05 <andatche> not going to take long to run out of space
Nov 03 13:56:08 <Tauno> I was afraid of that :/
Nov 03 13:56:36 <michaelnovakjr> Tauno: the app has to decide what to do with clicks in a list view
Nov 03 13:56:43 <michaelnovakjr> you want it to perform a task, so you override the method and support your actions
Nov 03 13:57:09 <Tauno> sure, but you can't really compare the two cases..
Nov 03 13:57:19 <michaelnovakjr> ?
Nov 03 13:58:54 <michaelnovakjr> Tauno: what do you mean?
Nov 03 13:59:31 <Tauno> I mean.. If I set the list view to be filterable, then I don't want to implement the text input logic - I just want to know when the filter text has been changed.. right now I have to manually set the filter text (taking into account text deletion etc)
Nov 03 14:00:32 <Tauno> a'la I set listView.setAcceptInput(true) and then I add listView.addOnTextChangedListener() that does what I want to do when the text has been changed and that's it..
Nov 03 14:01:10 <`vip> how is the Market gonna work, are we going to be charged via our tmobile bill ... or will we have to use google checkout ...via a cc or something ?
Nov 03 14:01:27 <Death_Syn> i like the google checkout idea
Nov 03 14:01:30 <Death_Syn> very painless
Nov 03 14:01:39 <Death_Syn> maybe we'll get lucky and they let you choose
Nov 03 14:01:39 <michaelnovakjr> `vip: that is unknown, currently you can't buy anything so.... :)
Nov 03 14:01:45 <`vip> yeah
Nov 03 14:01:48 <Tauno> michaelnovakjr, can't really explain it better :/
Nov 03 14:02:15 <michaelnovakjr> nope, haven't dealt with it before.... i end up with my own adapter usually
Nov 03 14:03:03 <Tauno> I also have my own adapter.. it's just the builtin UI for displaying filter text that ListViews have :)
Nov 03 14:03:13 <Dougie187> `vip: i would assume it wouldn't be through the t-mobile bill... but ionno. my only reason is they want to have multiple carriers supported for the same app store.
Nov 03 14:03:27 <`vip> true, didnt think of that
Nov 03 14:05:56 <`vip> so i wonder, is Trak similar to Twinkle?? (never used twinkle but heard lots about it it)
Nov 03 14:08:43 <Dougie187> but i guess its still a possibility, but google checkout would be easier impo
Nov 03 14:08:46 <Dougie187> imo*
Nov 03 14:08:50 <gambler> yo michaelnovakjr have you managed to get the debugger to execute arbitrary code?
Nov 03 14:09:10 <michaelnovakjr> gambler: what do you mean?
Nov 03 14:09:46 <gambler> In the debug console you can add code at a breakpoint.
Nov 03 14:10:10 <gambler> I can do Log.d("tag","str"); pretty easily but nothing more complex.
Nov 03 14:10:19 <michaelnovakjr> hm, i haven't tried it
Nov 03 14:12:21 <gambler> Ive tried rigging up beanshell over the network too but it seems to fail when I try to pass "outside" references into the eval function.
Nov 03 14:13:07 <gambler> "long time=42; System.err.println(new Date(time).toString());" works fine.
Nov 03 14:34:06 <wizkoder> is there a way to address the framebuffer directly on this android machines? I am looking for a way to get my game running on all these machines (freerunner and the android ones). will there be or already is sdl running?
Nov 03 14:43:13 <Tauno> found a bug in ListView  - ListView.setFilterText(""); is not working.. i doubt anyone cares but just in case someone wonders :)
Nov 03 14:45:12 <nopcode> hey
Nov 03 14:45:19 <nopcode> can all features of the g1 be used on any network?
Nov 03 14:45:28 <Dougie187> nopcode: no.
Nov 03 14:45:37 <nopcode> why not?
Nov 03 14:45:48 <Dougie187> because the 3g frequencies are not supported by all carriers.
Nov 03 14:45:56 <edcba> and ?
Nov 03 14:45:59 <trigatch4> whattup dougie187
Nov 03 14:46:05 <nopcode> Dougie187: ok and besides that?
Nov 03 14:46:08 <Dougie187> hey trigatch4
Nov 03 14:46:12 <edcba> what features are affected by 3g vs edge ?
Nov 03 14:46:20 <Dougie187> just speed afaik.
Nov 03 14:46:23 <nopcode> Dougie187: i was thinking about application features
Nov 03 14:46:27 <nopcode> stuff like email etc
Nov 03 14:46:36 <Dougie187> but i mean, you won't get the myfavs or whatever.
Nov 03 14:46:37 <Dougie187> lol
Nov 03 14:46:38 <nopcode> assuming the network conectivity works
Nov 03 14:46:41 <Disconnect> edcba: speed and the ability to do data and voice simultaniously
Nov 03 14:46:51 <trigatch4> they are considering "logging" this channel?
Nov 03 14:46:52 <edcba> ok
Nov 03 14:47:02 <Dougie187> trigatch4: really?
Nov 03 14:47:10 <trigatch4> look at the subject
Nov 03 14:47:15 <Dougie187> yeah i see now.
Nov 03 14:47:17 <trigatch4> Seems lame to me
Nov 03 14:47:18 <Dougie187> i didn't notice that.
Nov 03 14:47:24 <trigatch4> Thats what the freaking Google Group is for
Nov 03 14:47:27 <Dougie187> me too
Nov 03 14:47:41 <trigatch4> I voted "Yes" - I mind... out of principle
Nov 03 14:47:47 <Dougie187> as did i
Nov 03 14:47:47 <trigatch4> I don't care that its logged personally but
Nov 03 14:47:56 <nopcode> so are there any features that are only available with speicifc providers?
Nov 03 14:47:56 <Dougie187> eh, there is so much BS that goes on in here.
Nov 03 14:47:57 <trigatch4> kind of seems like it might restrict opinion/speech a bit
Nov 03 14:48:01 <Dougie187> its not going to useful to log it.
Nov 03 14:48:03 <edcba> i voted yes too anyway
Nov 03 14:48:17 <trigatch4> especially when i'm in here talking
Nov 03 14:48:21 <trigatch4> absolutely nothing useful
Nov 03 14:48:22 <Dougie187> nopcode: the MyFavs feature...
Nov 03 14:48:22 <trigatch4> :)
Nov 03 14:48:30 <nopcode> Dougie187: whats that?
Nov 03 14:48:30 <Dougie187> trigatch4: heh, me too for the most part.
Nov 03 14:48:41 <Dougie187> nopcode: tmobiles 5 free phone numbers.
Nov 03 14:48:55 <nopcode> oh well but thats not g1 specific is it
Nov 03 14:49:22 <nopcode> i'm referring more to things like the push email service on the iphone which supposedly wasnt available if you swtich providers
Nov 03 14:50:22 <ttuttle> That's available through Google.  It works on any network, wifi or cell.
Nov 03 14:50:27 <michaelnovakjr> nopcode: you officially can't switch providers :)
Nov 03 14:50:37 <Dougie187> i was just saying because you said features that are not available through other providers.
Nov 03 14:50:54 <Dougie187> MyFavs has an app on the phone right?
Nov 03 14:51:03 <michaelnovakjr> Dougie187: yep
Nov 03 14:51:12 <Dougie187> yeah so thats an app that you couldn't use on another network.
Nov 03 14:51:56 <ionstorm> grab yourself a voip  provider thats cheap and add the number to your fave 5 and make free calls all day long
Nov 03 14:52:20 <ionstorm> i use grandcentral.com for that
Nov 03 14:52:22 <ionstorm> lol
Nov 03 14:52:46 <Disconnect> ionstorm: tmob says they can bill you wahtever they like if they catch you doing that tho
Nov 03 14:53:11 <michaelnovakjr> and they will catch you :)
Nov 03 14:53:34 <Dougie187> does voip use a lot of data?
Nov 03 14:53:35 <Disconnect> fyi if the channel is logged chances are real good we can stop answering the same questions 50 times a day.
Nov 03 14:53:47 <wastrel> i voted for logging
Nov 03 14:54:04 <ttuttle> Disconnect: nope. people will still ask agaain and again
Nov 03 14:54:05 <wastrel> Disconnect: sounds like you're volunteering to maintain the faq?
Nov 03 14:54:19 <Dougie187> Disconnect: i don't think thats true, because that would mean someone who was curious would rather ask the question then paw through all our garbage chat.
Nov 03 14:54:34 <michaelnovakjr> i voted for it
Nov 03 14:54:37 <Dougie187> err... you get what i mean
Nov 03 14:54:39 <Disconnect> no, i'm volunteering to let google index the channel so people can get some sort of useful results from (eg) "reflash g1"
Nov 03 14:54:47 <michaelnovakjr> yes
Nov 03 14:54:56 <nopcode> have other android phones be announced btw?
Nov 03 14:55:03 <michaelnovakjr> no
Nov 03 14:55:12 <Disconnect> Dougie187: nobody ever reads a log. people search it, index it, cross-reference it and generally massage it with automated tools. so..
Nov 03 14:55:24 <michaelnovakjr> motorola is working on a phone but nothing has been announced yet
Nov 03 14:55:38 <Dougie187> michaelnovakjr: thats been turned off for the time being though
Nov 03 14:55:42 <Dougie187> after all their job cuts.
Nov 03 14:55:49 <Dougie187> they are not focusing so much on android.
Nov 03 14:55:54 <michaelnovakjr> i saw they were still hiring android developers
Nov 03 14:55:58 <tethridge> Dougie187, I think that sprint advertisement from last week was a fake
Nov 03 14:56:05 <nopcode> i suppose nokia wont join?
Nov 03 14:56:06 <Dougie187> tethridge: which one?
Nov 03 14:56:11 <michaelnovakjr> nopcode: probably not
Nov 03 14:56:17 <nopcode> michaelnovakjr: after acquiring trolltech and stuff
Nov 03 14:56:18 <Dougie187> nopcode: nokia has been rumored to be working on an android phone.
Nov 03 14:56:19 <tethridge> Dougie187, the new rates
Nov 03 14:56:23 <Dougie187> tethridge: yeah it was..
Nov 03 14:56:33 <nopcode> ic
Nov 03 14:56:35 <Dougie187> tethridge: it was about half of the real rates.
Nov 03 14:56:42 <nopcode> well so i suppose it wouldnt be wise to get the g1?
Nov 03 14:56:46 <nopcode> being the first android phone
Nov 03 14:56:52 <Dougie187> nopcode: how is that not wisE?
Nov 03 14:56:56 <michaelnovakjr> i got one and its great
Nov 03 14:57:04 <nopcode> its the first iteration
Nov 03 14:57:05 <michaelnovakjr> its comparable to my iPhone
Nov 03 14:57:10 <Dougie187> nopcode: so?
Nov 03 14:57:37 <Dougie187> nopcode: that doesn't mean its bad. everyone in here loves theirs for the most part.
Nov 03 14:57:51 <michaelnovakjr> i have no complaints
Nov 03 14:57:51 <nopcode> is it fast enough tho?
Nov 03 14:57:53 <Dougie187> there are a few issues, but you are bound to find issues with everything.
Nov 03 14:58:01 <nopcode> i suppose the next hardware generation will run android even better
Nov 03 14:58:17 <michaelnovakjr> why
Nov 03 14:58:31 <michaelnovakjr> nevermind
Nov 03 14:58:41 <Dougie187> nopcode: if you think like that, why ever buy one. the next one is always going to be faster.
Nov 03 14:58:41 <nopcode> well the stack will stay about the same but the hardware will evolve, so more performance is to be expected
Nov 03 14:58:57 <nopcode> Dougie187: its like buying a gfx card when crysis came out
Nov 03 14:59:06 <nopcode> if you wait a little you can play crysis much smoother ;)
Nov 03 14:59:18 <Dougie187> that same argument is an infinite loop though.
Nov 03 14:59:35 <nopcode> however my argument is void if android is already fast enough on the g1
Nov 03 14:59:37 <nopcode> so, is it? ;)
Nov 03 14:59:43 <Dougie187> if you think like that, there is no reason to ever buy a new phone or graphics card because they will always be faster.
Nov 03 14:59:51 <Dougie187> and i don't have an answer for you because I don't have a G1
Nov 03 15:00:04 * michaelnovakjr ignores nopcode
Nov 03 15:00:12 <andatche> android doesn't seem slow on the G1
Nov 03 15:00:15 <wastrel> i have a g1
Nov 03 15:00:23 <nopcode> yeah but assuming that android and g1 are designed such that its "just fast enough" wouldnt it make sense to wait for the next hardware platform?
Nov 03 15:00:36 <Dougie187> nopcode: you are missing my point.
Nov 03 15:01:00 <nopcode> Dougie187: there'll be a point when its "fast enough"
Nov 03 15:01:11 <ttuttle> nopcode: no
Nov 03 15:01:24 <ttuttle> nopcode: the stack will gain features as they go along, keeping it roughly the same speed as devices get faster
Nov 03 15:01:53 <wastrel> i think you mean, draining the battery at the same speed
Nov 03 15:02:06 <andatche> the G1 already runs android "fast enough"
Nov 03 15:02:07 <Dougie187> nopcode: you should talk to muthu_ about this.
Nov 03 15:02:13 <andatche> there isn't any noticable slowdown at any point
Nov 03 15:02:26 <Dougie187> he can probably explain it to you.
Nov 03 15:02:36 <Disconnect> i think the big problems with the g1 (and android in general) aren't going to be fixed by different hardware (maybe camera) but by time - evolution of the software, hacking the firmware, that sort of thing.
Nov 03 15:02:40 <edcba> isn't there some demo of g1 on youtube ?
Nov 03 15:02:50 <nopcode> kk, we'll see... my mobile contract ends in december ;)
Nov 03 15:02:51 <michaelnovakjr> just ignore!
Nov 03 15:02:58 <Disconnect> andatche: wow i have -tons- of slowdowns, things like home taking up to a minute to redraw.. so maybe you are just lucky.
Nov 03 15:03:04 <trigatch4> michaelnovakjr whats up good sir
Nov 03 15:03:08 <nopcode> Disconnect: hah ;)
Nov 03 15:03:09 <andatche> Disconnect: really? :/
Nov 03 15:03:09 <wastrel> yeah slowdowns yes.
Nov 03 15:03:27 <wastrel> very large web pages, the camera app, the ebook reader
Nov 03 15:03:27 <Disconnect> yah. i'd throw some debugging into the scheduler, but you know, i can't flash my open platform onto my open phone..
Nov 03 15:03:37 <andatche> must admit, I've rebooted mine once every couple of days since having it, but not noticed any slowdowns really
Nov 03 15:03:40 <ttuttle> Disconnect: /me has had the home screen problem.
Nov 03 15:03:42 <trigatch4> I think a lot of the problems on the G1 are due to Developers not having hardware to test their applications on before releasing on the market...
Nov 03 15:03:55 <wastrel> some games.
Nov 03 15:03:57 <trigatch4> A lot of apps don't have "Home" buttons that take you to the apps main/open/home screen for example
Nov 03 15:04:00 <trigatch4> i find that very annoying
Nov 03 15:04:54 <trigatch4> There were a music app or two that had that problem... I forget which ones now... but the music would be playing in the background and it would be a huge irritation to get back into the app and to the screen where you could pause/stop the music
Nov 03 15:05:04 <trigatch4> wow looks like i killed all the conversation haha
Nov 03 15:05:26 <Dougie187> lol
Nov 03 15:05:29 <Dougie187> thats good.
Nov 03 15:05:32 <Dougie187> it needed to die anyways
Nov 03 15:05:50 <Disconnect> trigatch4: i agree if by 'developers' you include google platform guys :/
Nov 03 15:08:22 <trigatch4> Disconnect: sure, why not
Nov 03 15:08:45 <trigatch4> Another issue is a lot of times when you open the keyboard, the applications "lose" their place and revert back to a previous screen
Nov 03 15:09:14 <Disconnect> yah thats an app problem, istr some people saying the lifecycle doc doesn't particularly match the actual behavior
Nov 03 15:09:23 <trigatch4> yeah
Nov 03 15:09:34 <trigatch4> but i think thats just a symptom of early apps
Nov 03 15:09:43 <trigatch4> devs will get that down over time
Nov 03 15:09:48 <trigatch4> at least the better ones will
Nov 03 15:10:22 <trigatch4> it'll be interesing to see how a totally different phone with totally different hardware is handled. like a phone like the LG Voyager which has 2 screens for example
Nov 03 15:10:30 <trigatch4> screens with different resolutions, etc..
Nov 03 15:10:34 <trigatch4> wow everyone died
Nov 03 15:10:43 <Dougie187> lol
Nov 03 15:10:59 <trigatch4> what have you been up to dougie?
Nov 03 15:11:08 <Dougie187> not too much.
Nov 03 15:11:12 <Dougie187> my birthday was yesterday
Nov 03 15:11:19 <Dougie187> so i have been playing a lot of games this weekend.
Nov 03 15:13:27 * ttuttle just rotated his screen and wondered why the scratch didn't rotate with it.
Nov 03 15:13:53 <Dougie187> ?
Nov 03 15:14:10 <michaelnovakjr> ttuttle: that means it is a scratch :)
Nov 03 15:17:05 <trigatch4> happy bday dougie
Nov 03 15:17:08 <trigatch4> how old now?
Nov 03 15:17:24 <Dougie187> 24
Nov 03 15:17:39 <trigatch4> nice
Nov 03 15:17:42 <Dougie187> yeah
Nov 03 15:17:56 <trigatch4> want to borrow a coupla years from me?
Nov 03 15:18:00 <trigatch4> i'll be 27 in december
Nov 03 15:18:15 <Dougie187> lol
Nov 03 15:18:24 <Dougie187> you're not that old.
Nov 03 15:18:29 <Dougie187> 27 isn't bad at all
Nov 03 15:18:37 <trigatch4> yeah i know i know
Nov 03 15:18:50 <Dougie187> when you're 50 you can start complaining.
Nov 03 15:18:56 <trigatch4> but by the time i have the money to do the things i want, i'll be 50
Nov 03 15:19:01 <Dougie187> heh
Nov 03 15:19:12 <Dougie187> well you can do things you want, and complain while you are doing them.
Nov 03 15:19:48 <trigatch4> sounds like my GF in bed
Nov 03 15:19:51 <trigatch4> haha jk
Nov 03 15:20:17 <Dougie187> lol
Nov 03 15:21:53 * Disconnect gets the things he wants @ 30.. so there :)
Nov 03 15:22:26 <Disconnect> except this year. instead of prepping for our usual key west drive (1-2 weeks from baltimore to key west and back) we are staying home.
Nov 03 15:22:41 <trigatch4> Disconnect: you from bmore?
Nov 03 15:23:00 <summatusmentis> what's in key west?
Nov 03 15:23:37 <Dougie187> lol
Nov 03 15:23:40 <trigatch4> the thing that opens "vault east"
Nov 03 15:23:48 <Dougie187> I hear key west is really nice.
Nov 03 15:23:52 <Dougie187> but i have yet to go there.
Nov 03 15:24:04 <summatusmentis> that's near the everglades, yes?
Nov 03 15:24:18 <Dougie187> yes
Nov 03 15:24:22 <Dougie187> but more south.
Nov 03 15:24:27 <summatusmentis> I see
Nov 03 15:24:35 * summatusmentis does not know his Florida geography
Nov 03 15:24:41 <summatusmentis> I just know that FL is bad at elections
Nov 03 15:24:52 <Dougie187> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=key+west&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=27.22791,79.101563&ie=UTF8&ll=24.586466,-81.778793&spn=0.121756,0.30899&t=h&z=12&g=key+west
Nov 03 15:25:51 <trigatch4> 50% of the united states is bad at elections
Nov 03 15:25:57 <trigatch4> how do you think George Bush got elected
Nov 03 15:26:44 <Dougie187> we will see how it goes tomorrow.
Nov 03 15:29:14 <Disconnect> trigatch4: sorry, was phone. but yah, just outside annapolis. so bmore/dc
Nov 03 15:29:36 <wizkoder> You should vote for more republicans. The last one was close to perfect ^^
Nov 03 15:30:04 <trigatch4> Disconnect: I live in baltimore... between fells point and canton
Nov 03 15:30:09 <Disconnect> nice
Nov 03 15:30:11 <trigatch4> right now i'm actually in silver spring though
Nov 03 15:30:22 <Disconnect> lol ditto. my office is across the street from discovery channel.
Nov 03 15:30:28 <trigatch4> oh nice
Nov 03 15:30:39 <trigatch4> you should join my "Baltimore" social group on AndroidForums
Nov 03 15:30:43 <trigatch4> I'm the only one in it at the moment
Nov 03 15:30:46 <trigatch4> its lonely in there
Nov 03 15:30:46 <trigatch4> ;)
Nov 03 15:52:05 <FirstFan> Does anyone know where to add a new locale?
Nov 03 16:07:16 <Kizoomer121> I want to persist a simple, private array with 10 items. Do I have to use sqlite to perform such a simple operation?
Nov 03 16:10:32 <zhobbs> Kizoomer121: you could use SharedPreferences or store it into a file also
Nov 03 16:11:44 <unix_lappy> Kizoomer121: you mean to say that sqlite doesnt persist throughout the lifecycle?
Nov 03 16:12:58 <Disconnect> unix_lappy: huh..? he said "have to" .. he doesn't -have to- use sqlite for persistance of 10 simple items
Nov 03 16:13:06 <oinkboink> hi kids
Nov 03 16:13:50 <unix_lappy> no, of course not.
Nov 03 16:16:26 <Kizoomer121> Disconnect: can you suggest a better way (I do not want to misuse the preference name-value pair stuff- that would seem silly).
Nov 03 16:22:47 <michaelnovakjr> ubuntu 8.10 screwed up my java.... paths aren't right anymore
Nov 03 16:24:32 <vol> : (
Nov 03 16:24:41 <vol> path to success
Nov 03 16:25:18 <michaelnovakjr> looks like android can't find java
Nov 03 16:28:41 <michaelnovakjr> all better :)
Nov 03 16:29:51 <vol> Awesome, eclipse. Thanks for, instead of having grayed out buttons, just not display them at all.
Nov 03 16:30:24 <vol> Instead of a grayed out "install" which would have made me think "hmm, maybe I haven't done this right" you just don't show it at all, leading me to try other buttons and see if maybe one of them will install?
Nov 03 16:30:32 <vol> argh
Nov 03 16:32:40 <Death_Syn> i really don't like clipse all that much
Nov 03 16:32:58 <michaelnovakjr> same here
Nov 03 16:33:09 <Death_Syn> I'm building a template for ride (a ruby + screen IDE) to do android work
Nov 03 16:33:23 <Death_Syn> ruby + vim + screen
Nov 03 16:33:30 <Death_Syn> though it won't need much ruby soon
Nov 03 16:35:15 <Dougie187> a bunch of circuit cities are closing.
Nov 03 16:35:42 <Death_Syn> circuit city has been having issues making payroll I've heard
Nov 03 16:35:51 * vol <3 eclipse
Nov 03 16:35:58 <Dougie187> yeah. and they lost a much of money.
Nov 03 16:36:07 <Dougie187> bunch*
Nov 03 16:36:19 <zhobbs> yeah, circuit city is in trouble
Nov 03 16:36:34 <Dougie187> yeah
Nov 03 16:36:35 <michaelnovakjr> that's not good
Nov 03 16:36:39 <Dougie187> they are closing the one in town here.
Nov 03 16:36:45 <Dougie187> http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/CC/455353003x0x245809/2BFAC9D9-6CEF-4027-9E51-1C635F42F7A7/110308%20Store%20Closing%20List.pd
Nov 03 16:36:59 <vol> boy, I'm shocked that circuit city is going under
Nov 03 16:37:05 <vol> almost as if they have shitty stores that no one wants to go to
Nov 03 16:37:19 <vol> weren't they the ones that fired everyone as a "cost-cutting" measure?
Nov 03 16:37:49 <Dougie187> probably.
Nov 03 16:38:31 <ionstorm> good, I hate circuit city, ever been there with your G1 ?
Nov 03 16:38:42 <vol> no?
Nov 03 16:38:55 <ionstorm> scanned some pc's and stuff with shopsavvy
Nov 03 16:39:03 <ionstorm> they refer me to bestbuy or online
Nov 03 16:39:03 <ionstorm> lol
Nov 03 16:39:13 <ionstorm> circuit city=rip off
Nov 03 16:39:22 <ionstorm> totally, they mark up 300 + percent
Nov 03 16:39:28 <vol> yeah
Nov 03 16:39:47 <vol> Haven't been using the UPC scanner in score yet
Nov 03 16:40:00 <ionstorm> crap dude, I just wanted a microsd card for my g1
Nov 03 16:40:06 <ionstorm> 8gb was 180 bucks
Nov 03 16:40:22 <ionstorm> i got one online for 20 bucks
Nov 03 16:40:24 <vol> hahaha what
Nov 03 16:40:26 <ionstorm> wtf is that
Nov 03 16:40:26 <vol> holy shit
Nov 03 16:40:29 <vol> yeah
Nov 03 16:40:35 <vol> no wonder they're going down
Nov 03 16:40:41 <ionstorm> best buy charges 140-150
Nov 03 16:40:49 <ionstorm> still outrageous
Nov 03 16:40:53 <Disconnect> ionstorm: for 8g? $45, i was looking at it last weekend
Nov 03 16:40:59 <vol> I remember getting a 2gb one for like $40 and I was like 'wow!'
Nov 03 16:41:02 <ionstorm> not here in phoenix
Nov 03 16:41:03 <vol> at beast buy
Nov 03 16:41:19 <Disconnect> tag was $75 (still not terrible for retail) and the saleslady went "wait, thats wrong, hang on" and double-checked
Nov 03 16:41:33 <ionstorm> where do u live?
Nov 03 16:41:52 <Disconnect> that was outside dc. online BB price was $75 or some such still. nowhere near $140.
Nov 03 16:41:54 <dipen> shop at newegg.com
Nov 03 16:42:02 <ionstorm> the west coast sucks man
Nov 03 16:42:08 <ionstorm> milk is 4 bucks a gallon
Nov 03 16:42:18 <Death_Syn> i typically buy from newegg.com, buy.com, or geeks.com
Nov 03 16:42:19 <ionstorm> more than gas
Nov 03 16:45:40 <Disconnect> here's one (ugly bb url warning: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8704397&st=microsd&lp=9&type=product&cp=1&id=1199495884089)
Nov 03 16:48:26 <unix_lappy> heh, i dont think ShopSavvy can help curb my tech lust for the next couple weeks.
Nov 03 16:48:39 <unix_lappy> especially if CC goes under.
Nov 03 16:48:45 <dd94300> 8gb  micoSD $26: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211351
Nov 03 16:48:46 <ionstorm> anyone c this? http://graha.ms/androidproxy/
Nov 03 16:48:59 <ionstorm> lookin for tethering solutions
Nov 03 16:51:17 <jlapenna> ionstorm: neat. I was just talking about this to someone.
Nov 03 16:51:24 <jlapenna> Like midsentence...
Nov 03 16:52:40 <ionstorm> ;]
Nov 03 16:55:36 <RyeBrye> Everyone see that J2ME wrapper app in the market today?
Nov 03 16:55:55 <ttuttle> yeah
Nov 03 16:55:57 <Death_Syn> orly
Nov 03 16:56:05 <Disconnect> dd94300: if you find an awesome 16gb price lemme know :)
Nov 03 16:56:08 <RyeBrye> I tried to load Mobipocket's .jad file in there but - no dice
Nov 03 16:56:18 <ttuttle> seems to me that it's against the rule about making apps that can install other apps
Nov 03 16:56:19 <Disconnect> RyeBrye: yah opera mobile works well but it doesn't handle orientation changes :/
Nov 03 16:56:27 <Death_Syn> i love adata memory and flash
Nov 03 16:56:49 <Disconnect> ttuttle: i suspect the rule is android apps. otherwise any interpreter/emulator would be right out.
Nov 03 16:56:51 <RyeBrye> It doesn't install other apps
Nov 03 16:57:10 <RyeBrye> It doesn't have a menu of apps or anything - you have to give it a URL of a jad file to download
Nov 03 16:57:14 <RyeBrye> which is hardly a market competitor
Nov 03 16:58:19 <Disconnect> he's prolly just annoyed about the rule. (and i agree, its stupid and petty. "oh no we can't let users know there might be -other- sources of apps for this open platform!")
Nov 03 16:58:43 <Death_Syn> if you want to go a bit cheaper, Kingston class 4:http://www.buy.com/prod/kingston-8gb-microsdhc-class-4-high-capacity-micro-secure-digital-card/q/loc/101/208403543.html
Nov 03 16:59:17 <RyeBrye> Well... once the market gets launched I think Google will be using it to recoupe development costs - and rightfully so... They've spent a lot of effort building the platform so they have some overhead to cover to make their shareholders happy
Nov 03 16:59:41 <RyeBrye> Some other company could clone the market app entirely, but only take a 10% cut - and then have their app on market and people would be foolish to NOT use the market-competitor
Nov 03 17:00:01 <RyeBrye> the other company would be benefiting from all of Google's effort to make the platform happen, with none of the overhead
Nov 03 17:00:22 <Death_Syn> maybe I'll be able to negotiate a 32gb microsd with my new company
Nov 03 17:00:28 <Death_Syn> that'd be sweet
Nov 03 17:01:49 <dd94300> Disconnect: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820183193, do u need micro?
Nov 03 17:02:12 <Disconnect> yah micro for the g1 :)
Nov 03 17:03:41 <Laz> RyeBrye TOS says no competing market apps on the market
Nov 03 17:03:41 <RyeBrye> It would be really cool if Google would let users sell "used" copies of their applications that they don't want to use any more. I know you can return them within an X-day window - but unlike any other copyrighted product you buy, DRM unfairly kills the first-sale doctrine in order to respond to prevent infringement
Nov 03 17:03:57 <RyeBrye> Laz - I know that the TOS says that - I was just explaining why I thought it wasn't a stupid rule
Nov 03 17:04:10 * RyeBrye agrees with Google's logic on the no competing market apps
Nov 03 17:04:17 <d0nets> hrmm
Nov 03 17:04:25 <d0nets> so who is updated from rc19?
Nov 03 17:04:28 <RyeBrye> If another market wants to spring up for Android, they will have to pay their own marketing costs to get it there - fair enough
Nov 03 17:04:31 <RyeBrye> I'm updated from rc19
Nov 03 17:04:38 <zhobbs> I'm updated
Nov 03 17:04:44 <Disconnect> me also
Nov 03 17:04:48 <d0nets> did you do it manually
Nov 03 17:04:48 <d0nets> ?
Nov 03 17:04:51 <RyeBrye> Ye
Nov 03 17:04:51 <Disconnect> yah
Nov 03 17:04:59 <d0nets> ok so its pretty reliable eh?
Nov 03 17:05:02 <RyeBrye> Yes
Nov 03 17:05:04 <d0nets> i think im gonna do it real quick
Nov 03 17:05:06 <RyeBrye> I wish it wasn't, but it is
Nov 03 17:05:12 <unix_lappy> has hadango actually put OUT a market app yet?
Nov 03 17:05:19 <d0nets> you wish it wasnt?
Nov 03 17:05:20 <d0nets> lol
Nov 03 17:05:25 <zhobbs> mine got updated today (automatically)
Nov 03 17:05:44 <RyeBrye> Yeah, if it wasn't reliable that would imply it was unreliable which would imply a way to attack it to flash unsigned or custom code
Nov 03 17:05:46 <ttuttle> ota is fun
Nov 03 17:06:42 <d0nets> i see
Nov 03 17:07:07 <d0nets> so anything cool in the update?
Nov 03 17:07:20 <RyeBrye> the USB notification when you plug in a USB cable is the only visible change
Nov 03 17:07:29 <RyeBrye> one person reported they see more bars in more places"
Nov 03 17:07:48 <jbq> OTA is fun, but it costs a lot of storage. There'd be literally twice as much storage for apps if we removed the OTA capabilities.
Nov 03 17:07:52 <d0nets> lol
Nov 03 17:08:06 <d0nets> the only way to check that is put 2 g1's next to each other
Nov 03 17:08:16 <d0nets> me and a classmate compared the iphone 2.1 fw
Nov 03 17:08:17 <RyeBrye> jbq - Yeah, I'm all for removing that OTA capability
Nov 03 17:08:19 <d0nets> he had full, i had 1 bar
Nov 03 17:09:23 <RyeBrye> jbq - I thought it downloaded the OTA update to the SD card? no?
Nov 03 17:09:49 <jbq> RyeBrye: nope, because then that wouldn't work if the SD card was not present.
Nov 03 17:10:27 <RyeBrye> Well, yeah... but the whole 'wont work' chain can be carried up a level higher... and OTA updates wont work if a network isn't present
Nov 03 17:10:51 <RyeBrye> So shit, lets just connect the devices via a hardline straight to T-mobile so we can make sure they will always work
Nov 03 17:11:06 <Disconnect> i -love- the usb notification btw.
Nov 03 17:11:27 <benley> tis a nice feature
Nov 03 17:11:31 <d0nets> A nun was working a cross word puzzle when she came accross a question she didnt know. She asked the priest "What is a 4 letter word that ends in ...unt"
Nov 03 17:12:07 <d0nets> The priest answered "Aunt... A     U    N    T"
Nov 03 17:12:15 <benley> R
Nov 03 17:12:17 <d0nets> the Nun said "oh... do you have an eraser?"
Nov 03 17:12:20 <Disconnect> and fwiw there are "better" (storage-wise) ways to do OTA updates. but they are worse in terms of stability. and as it is an OTA upgrade of a major device (hundreds of thousands to millions) -will- brick some. (even if only through user error or specific hostility)
Nov 03 17:12:44 <d0nets> oh wait i butchered it "What is a 4 letter word that is a type of a woman, and it ends in UNT"
Nov 03 17:12:46 <Disconnect> flashing a backup partition and switching the boot (with the original untouched for fallback) can at least minimize that risk
Nov 03 17:13:05 <d0nets> it was better on the stern show lol
Nov 03 17:13:11 <jbq> Disconnect: that'd take more space, though.
Nov 03 17:13:24 <RyeBrye> Every day I manually delete crap to free up more space
Nov 03 17:13:27 <Disconnect> jbq: thats what it does now i believe.
Nov 03 17:13:37 <Disconnect> RyeBrye: yah browser dumps cache to the wrong partition
Nov 03 17:13:59 <RyeBrye> And it appears you can't tell it to download files straight to the SD card either
Nov 03 17:14:06 <jbq> Disconnect: nope. Right now it downloads the compressed update to /cache, boots into recovery, and, and decompresses it over /system.
Nov 03 17:14:14 <Disconnect> ah
Nov 03 17:14:29 <Disconnect> then why 2x as much storage w/o ota?
Nov 03 17:14:29 <RyeBrye> yeah, and it writes little love notes in the /cache telling recovery what to do
Nov 03 17:14:54 <RyeBrye> It has to have at least 45 megs of empty space always in /cache to receive an OTA?
Nov 03 17:15:19 <jbq> Disconnect: about 63MB in /cache, and we could live with (I think) 15MB for market downloads, which would allow to make /data 48MB larger.
Nov 03 17:15:25 <RyeBrye> when these devices get owned, that will be the first thing I will work on removing :)
Nov 03 17:15:48 <jbq> RyeBrye: it doesn't have to be free, but it has to be reclaimable.
Nov 03 17:16:04 <RyeBrye> ok, right
Nov 03 17:16:09 <wastrel> just mount a directory on the sd card there
Nov 03 17:16:36 * RyeBrye dreams of mountind directories on his sd card there
Nov 03 17:16:41 * RyeBrye just realizes that sounds dirty
Nov 03 17:16:51 <thoraxe> yay g1 system update
Nov 03 17:16:53 <thoraxe> i wonder what's in it
Nov 03 17:17:03 <thoraxe> perhaps a fixed aol instant messenger? a non-broken imap email client?
Nov 03 17:17:04 <Disconnect> jbq: could always require sd for marketplace.
Nov 03 17:17:04 <thoraxe> haha
Nov 03 17:17:12 <jbq> Re: browser cache on /data: yeah, it sucks that the browser doesn't pay attention to the "low storage" messages to purge its cache... and it sucks that the browser cache isn't stored in /cache.
Nov 03 17:17:15 <RyeBrye> thoraxe - probably RC29 which has a USB notification as the only visible change
Nov 03 17:17:20 <vol> boy, it'd be nice if someone told us what the update actually did
Nov 03 17:17:22 <vol> HINT HINT.
Nov 03 17:17:35 <RyeBrye> No joke
Nov 03 17:17:37 <Disconnect> thoraxe: erm. no. a usb notifier, which is nice. and some 'stability' which is ok (might be noticable, might not) and some security, which is important.
Nov 03 17:17:45 <Disconnect> vol: erm, they did.
Nov 03 17:17:49 <Death_Syn> someday, I'll get an update
Nov 03 17:17:51 <RyeBrye> We're going to have to start binary diffing dex files and recovery images to see what files are changing
Nov 03 17:17:58 <vol> Disconnect: where?
Nov 03 17:18:05 <RyeBrye> but that STILL wont be very helpful :)
Nov 03 17:18:06 <vol> All I can find is "We made your experience better! :D"
Nov 03 17:18:19 <thoraxe> sounds boring
Nov 03 17:18:37 <Disconnect> it was on tmob forums, but they renumbered eveything in the maint. lemme find it.
Nov 03 17:18:46 <vol> thanks
Nov 03 17:19:24 <ionstorm> http://code.google.com/p/android-vnc-viewer/
Nov 03 17:19:27 <ionstorm> neat eh
Nov 03 17:19:38 <RyeBrye> that is cool
Nov 03 17:21:56 <Disconnect> http://forums.t-mobile.com/tmbl/board/message?board.id=Android3&thread.id=10521&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 is rc28 i think. 29 just adds the security patch.
Nov 03 17:23:47 <ionstorm> anyone see the midp runner on the market ?
Nov 03 17:24:05 <ionstorm> i wonder if opera works
Nov 03 17:24:24 <RyeBrye> Apparently it does
Nov 03 17:24:34 <RyeBrye> Mobipocket didnt work for me
Nov 03 17:24:45 <ionstorm> jmirc works
Nov 03 17:25:38 <d0nets> the apk for the vnc viewer didnt work
Nov 03 17:25:40 <d0nets> and what is jmirc
Nov 03 17:26:11 <ionstorm> an irc client
Nov 03 17:26:25 <d0nets> for android?
Nov 03 17:26:35 <ionstorm> works with the midp loader
Nov 03 17:27:22 <DarkriftX> RyeBrye, did you ever find a working link to that test build?
Nov 03 17:28:57 <RyeBrye> DarkriftX - no, I didn't
Nov 03 17:29:02 <DarkriftX> damn
Nov 03 17:29:16 <RyeBrye> I was wanting the URL from the Google server in particular
Nov 03 17:29:30 <d0nets> anyone else get that vnc viewer working>
Nov 03 17:29:35 <d0nets> or to install
Nov 03 17:29:37 <RyeBrye> I'm kind of annoyed that they removed the link from the xda forums
Nov 03 17:29:43 <RyeBrye> ... it's not like it's a user forum
Nov 03 17:30:27 <RyeBrye> WOW... my congressman just called me!
Nov 03 17:30:39 <ttuttle> RyeBrye: wow
Nov 03 17:30:39 <RyeBrye> Sure... it sounded like a recording, but I think it was real
Nov 03 17:31:00 <RyeBrye> After all, he said "Hello, this is congresman... "
Nov 03 17:31:03 <michaelnovakjr> Wow, he must be in trouble and need votes
Nov 03 17:31:09 <d0nets> lol
Nov 03 17:31:11 <RyeBrye> not "Hello, this is a recording of congressman..."
Nov 03 17:31:33 <tethridge> that's nothing.  Joe Biden called me the other day
Nov 03 17:31:51 <ttuttle> That's nothing.  Obama took me out for dinner last night.
Nov 03 17:31:56 <muthu__> lol
Nov 03 17:32:05 <tethridge> obama girl, is that you?
Nov 03 17:32:19 <Kraln> That's nothing, I slept with John McCain last night
Nov 03 17:32:24 <michaelnovakjr> ew
Nov 03 17:32:30 * tethridge <shutters>
Nov 03 17:32:47 <d0nets> thats nothing i gave it to Sarah Palin in the poop chute
Nov 03 17:33:04 <michaelnovakjr> jeeze
Nov 03 17:33:07 <michaelnovakjr> guys come on
Nov 03 17:33:25 <Kraln> YOU BETCHA
Nov 03 17:34:14 <stadlero> http://obamawill.com/projects/cellphone/
Nov 03 17:34:32 <tethridge> are there any new rumors of when the next android phone will hit the market?
Nov 03 17:35:01 <unix_lappy> tethridge: the major players have had some serious delays.
Nov 03 17:35:21 <unix_lappy> that leaves T-MObile to deliver on a less funnerer more sexy device.
Nov 03 17:35:35 <unix_lappy> which likely wont happen till 09
Nov 03 17:36:06 <d0nets> doe the touch hd have a compass?
Nov 03 17:36:16 <d0nets> i know the touch hd pro doesnt
Nov 03 17:37:16 <BHSPitWeb> Does anyone know the keymap android uses at the kernel level?
Nov 03 17:37:20 <ionstorm> it would be *dope* if people made it so you could run any mobile app on android, like .sis for symbian devices for example
Nov 03 17:37:27 <ionstorm> that would totally pwn
Nov 03 17:37:36 <unix_lappy> doesnt matter, you wont see that device, and it's not even a remotely palatable price point.
Nov 03 17:37:45 <BHSPitWeb> ionstorm: yay for slow emulation
Nov 03 17:38:20 <ionstorm> well most symbian devices use only 200mhz processors, android could handle it
Nov 03 17:38:47 <RyeBrye> From what I hear, even the gameboy emulator right now is slow on android
Nov 03 17:38:59 <BHSPitWeb> RyeBrye: you beat me to my next point :P
Nov 03 17:39:27 <unix_lappy> ionstorm: you're lucky to get a 50% real to virtual.
Nov 03 17:39:49 <unix_lappy> maybe it's different for ARM, not sure.
Nov 03 17:42:25 <andyross> Symbian is an ARMv5 architecture.  It can run natively on the G1, although I'm not sure how virtualizable the swi instruction is.  Certainly now that it's been open sourced (I forget the details) a Symbian runtime isn't implausible.
Nov 03 17:42:53 <andyross> Note that everything running using the existing SDK is running emulated on the G1 anyway.
Nov 03 17:48:36 <Disconnect> arm doesn't have any virtualization helpers, either. do don't expect to see anything -near- the percentage speed you get with (eg) xen and such, no matter what magic is done..
Nov 03 17:49:21 <andyross> Yeah, but we don't need pagetable virtualization.  Just the ability to hook the SWI instruction for the Symbian system calls.  Not, by the way, that I'm particularly interested in seeing any Series 60 stuff running on the G1...
Nov 03 17:50:51 * andyross was scarred enough by Symbian the first time he worked with it.
Nov 03 17:50:55 <ttuttle> lol
Nov 03 17:51:02 <jasta> hey romain
Nov 03 17:51:11 <romainguy> yo
Nov 03 17:51:32 <Disconnect> s60fp3 is not nearly as bad. but i'd love to see s90 (s80? the keyboard/communicator one) anyway since its already made for larger, single-display devices with keyboards :)
Nov 03 17:52:08 <jasta> romainguy: did you do anything for Halloween? :)
Nov 03 17:52:28 <andyross> That's what I've been told, that symbian had improved a lot.  My last work was with Series 60 and UIQ c. 2004-5.  You'll forgive me if I dont' believe a word of it.
Nov 03 17:53:11 <romainguy> jasta: no, I don't care for Halloween :) (at least not yet :)
Nov 03 17:53:37 <jasta> you're missing out.  halloween is the greatest holiday for 20 somethings ;)
Nov 03 17:54:05 <romainguy> I really can't get into it :)
Nov 03 18:05:06 <ieatlint> has anyone else noticed that the g1 comes without a copy of the gpl, and with a quick search on tmobile's website, it has no information about obtaining the gpl code?
Nov 03 18:05:43 <ieatlint> (it also fails to include the apache licence, which is required by android)
Nov 03 18:06:24 <jbq> DannyB: are you aware of the issues that ieatlint just pointed out?
Nov 03 18:06:50 <waldo_> ieatlint: source.android.com
Nov 03 18:06:53 <DannyB> no, but it should be coming with a copy
Nov 03 18:07:05 <DannyB> the GPL is on the phone in the license list
Nov 03 18:07:32 <ieatlint> ah, it somehow skipped my mind to look there, hee
Nov 03 18:07:36 <DannyB> ;)
Nov 03 18:07:53 <DannyB> It would have been nice if tmo had put it in the back of the documentation book
Nov 03 18:07:57 <DannyB> but c'est la vie
Nov 03 18:08:13 <Damm> ieatlint, most of the licenses are linked in the license area.
Nov 03 18:08:17 <jbq> about 20% of my TV's manual is GPL + LGPL.
Nov 03 18:08:35 <Damm> what tv is this?
Nov 03 18:08:42 <jbq> Pioneer 5010
Nov 03 18:09:00 <stadlero> get hackin!
Nov 03 18:09:14 <fadden> The TV has a web server.
Nov 03 18:09:24 <mikez5> You can go to Settings/About phone/Legal information/Open source licenses and read the GPL on your phone (and a bunch of other licenses too)
Nov 03 18:09:46 <DannyB> and you can scroll through it in a horrible way because when we tried to add nice links we discovered a browser performance issue
Nov 03 18:09:48 <DannyB> :)
Nov 03 18:11:19 <waldo_> WOW.  this is a long list of licenses
Nov 03 18:11:46 <waldo_> but fun to scroll through
Nov 03 18:12:08 <mikez5> That file is automatically generated from all the NOTICE files in the source tree.
Nov 03 18:12:24 <Damm> about as fun as an enema
Nov 03 18:13:02 <mikez5> working on android is not excitement 100% of the time
Nov 03 18:13:27 <DannyB> we used to have it generate nice HTML with a TOC and all
Nov 03 18:13:33 <DannyB> but it took 10 minutes to display or something
Nov 03 18:13:42 <DannyB> so we filed a bug and moved on
Nov 03 18:13:44 <DannyB> :)
Nov 03 18:14:13 <Damm> takes long enough over 3G
Nov 03 18:14:13 <Damm> :/
Nov 03 18:15:33 <romainguy> Damm: over 3G? this file is on the phone
Nov 03 18:15:48 <jasta> hehe neat
Nov 03 18:15:53 <jasta> htere's a bubble level app on the market
Nov 03 18:15:55 <jasta> that thing is great
Nov 03 18:16:05 <Damm> romainguy, not all the licenses are on the phone
Nov 03 18:16:10 <ieatlint> just scrolled through it.... all well and good, the licences are there
Nov 03 18:16:19 <ieatlint> but it just quotes them, it doesn't satisfy them
Nov 03 18:16:26 <ieatlint> no where does it tell me where to get the code
Nov 03 18:16:44 <romainguy> ieatlint: code has to be available upon request
Nov 03 18:16:49 <romainguy> it doesn't have to say where to find the code
Nov 03 18:16:58 <romainguy> so here: http://source.android.com :)
Nov 03 18:17:00 <ieatlint> so if i ask tmobile, what do you think will happen? :)
Nov 03 18:17:19 <romainguy> I don't know, try
Nov 03 18:17:25 <romainguy> Damm: ??
Nov 03 18:17:28 <ieatlint> i'm just screwing around, i realise it's all there :)
Nov 03 18:17:38 <jasta> if they really must give you code, they either will, or you can sue them for copyright violation...
Nov 03 18:17:39 * Disconnect is tempted to release a gpl app into the marketplace for $20 just to watch people yell and scream and pee themselves.
Nov 03 18:17:50 <romainguy> Disconnect: lol
Nov 03 18:18:03 <ieatlint> Disconnect, do it :)
Nov 03 18:18:32 <Damm> romainguy, nm
Nov 03 18:18:49 <andyross> Nothing wrong with selling a GPL app as long as your source is up somewhere.  It's not any different than putting a tip jar up on a project page, IMHO.
Nov 03 18:19:02 * Disconnect hasn't got an app for release right now or i'd do it @ slideme immediately (proceeds to be donated, etc)
Nov 03 18:19:15 <jasta> i wish r.android.com would have an extra column showing you what the code review sum was
Nov 03 18:19:18 <Disconnect> andyross: not up somewhere. only required to give it to the people who buy it.
Nov 03 18:19:21 <mikez5> I was hoping we could ship the sources in a tar ball on the SD card.
Nov 03 18:19:24 <jasta> so you could quickly scan and find things being rejected or accepted
Nov 03 18:19:57 <andyross> Disconnect: Yes, that's true.  But putting it up on a web page somewhere is an easy way to meet the requirements *and* be nice to the rest of the world.
Nov 03 18:20:19 <andyross> The FSF itself was originally funded by selling installable media, after all.
Nov 03 18:20:46 <Disconnect> andyross: yah but if i was gonna be nice i wouldn't be selling a gpl app and giving away the money. i'd either keep the money or give the app away :) this experiment is solely to cause people to froth at the mouth because they are "free human beings" and don't understand distribution licensing :)
Nov 03 18:21:09 <DannyB> andyross: sadly though, you can't just put url's to the license.
Nov 03 18:21:27 <andyross> Disconnect: ... so you're just trolling?  Apologies, everyone.  I was caught.
Nov 03 18:21:38 <DannyB> the FSF hates that
Nov 03 18:21:38 <DannyB> mainly because they have a habit of changing the URL's of the licenses
Nov 03 18:21:38 <DannyB> because they are dumb
Nov 03 18:21:38 <DannyB> ;)
Nov 03 18:21:54 <Disconnect> andyross: you were in doubt? "Disconnect is tempted to release a gpl app into the marketplace for $20 just to watch people yell and scream and pee themselves." .. i thought that was pretty clear :)
Nov 03 18:22:34 <andyross> DannyB: the technical requiresments in the GPLv2 are (I think) requirement to either distribute the source directly or make an offer for some period of time to provide them for at most a nominal fee.  Neither requires a specific web page be listed, and the latter is easily doable in a market app.
Nov 03 18:23:27 * Disconnect -would- like to see a ban on gpl/apache as "click-through" licenses since they are definitively NOT..
Nov 03 18:23:32 <jasta> romainguy: hehe, you approve a lot of commits :)
Nov 03 18:23:38 <romainguy> I don't approve them
Nov 03 18:23:44 <jasta> well, you review them positively
Nov 03 18:23:47 <DannyB> (They changed the lgpl2 url to point to lgpl2.1 at one point, etc)
Nov 03 18:23:51 <romainguy> very different
Nov 03 18:23:52 <DannyB> andyross: the requirements include providing a copy of the license
Nov 03 18:23:53 <romainguy> :)
Nov 03 18:24:03 <romainguy> I reviewed negatively an equal number
Nov 03 18:24:08 <DannyB> andyross: you aren't allow to say "the license can be found here: <url>"
Nov 03 18:24:12 <romainguy> like the patch from the NeoRunner guys :(
Nov 03 18:24:22 <jasta> romainguy: i'm preparing my uber patch to the E-mail app
Nov 03 18:24:53 <andyross> Oh, OK.  I misunderstood.  Yes, the text of COPYING technically needs to come with the app and be available to the user.  I thought you were saying that you couldn't get away with providing a pointer to the source code with an URL.
Nov 03 18:25:18 <ieatlint> andyross, you only can with the gplv3
Nov 03 18:25:46 <ieatlint> (and gplv2 says you can use later revisions, but other licences that require distrubiting the code may not allow you to simply link)
Nov 03 18:26:08 <ieatlint> i believe you also have to guarantee that the link you provide will be valid for 3 years
Nov 03 18:27:01 <andyross> ieatlint: That's the magic of logical "or".  If the GPLv2 allows it, then you can in perpetuity.  The "or later versions" clause is intended to allow future recipients to re-release modified code under a different license.  Nothing changes with your app.
Nov 03 18:27:37 <Dougie187> jasta: you're almost done?
Nov 03 18:27:38 <DannyB> Disconnect: I banned it internally :)
Nov 03 18:27:38 <DannyB> just last week in fact
Nov 03 18:27:55 <jasta> Dougie187: getting close
Nov 03 18:28:02 <Disconnect> cool
Nov 03 18:29:19 <ieatlint> andyross, if you have gpl v2 code that has the "or later versions" clause, then you can simply follow gpl v3 guidelines
Nov 03 18:29:27 <andyross> Yeah, the text in GPLv3 is almost identical to GPLv2: "Convey the object code in, or embodied in, a physical product     (including a physical distribution medium), accompanied by a     written offer, valid for at least three years and valid for as     long as you offer spare parts or customer support for that product     model, to give anyone who possesses the object code [source code]"
Nov 03 18:29:27 <Dougie187> jasta: thats exciting. it took a lot longer then you originally expected huh?
Nov 03 18:30:32 <vol> Disconnect: thanks
Nov 03 18:30:53 <Disconnect> vol: ?
Nov 03 18:30:58 <DannyB> andyross: Ah, yeah.
Nov 03 18:31:25 <vol> The changelist
Nov 03 18:31:47 <jasta> Dougie187: well, not exactly
Nov 03 18:32:40 <Dougie187> jasta: are you doing all of the original features? or is this still just imap idle?
Nov 03 18:33:56 <Disconnect> vol: ahh np
Nov 03 18:43:51 <jasta> Dougie187: sorry was distracted by work...
Nov 03 18:43:59 <Dougie187> no problem
Nov 03 18:44:11 <jasta> Dougie187: it's still just IMAP IDLE, but the issue was that a more significant redesign was necessary to support this feature efficiently
Nov 03 18:44:15 <jasta> so i did one quick hack at first
Nov 03 18:44:36 <jasta> and then talked to the apps original author and we came up with a more robust design that would work well for IMAP IDLE
Nov 03 18:44:39 <jasta> so i started hacking on that
Nov 03 18:44:58 <jasta> i got it functional this weekend, but now i just need to squash some minor bugs and develop a better policy for handling reconnects and such
Nov 03 18:45:16 <androoid> is the market down?
Nov 03 18:45:27 <Dougie187> jasta: sounds like you had a pretty awesome weekend then
Nov 03 18:45:45 <jasta> eh, i only worked on it for a few hours actually
Nov 03 18:45:48 <jasta> after becky fell asleep on saturday :)
Nov 03 18:45:57 <jasta> Friday night was a big halloween party at my house hehe
Nov 03 18:47:04 <Dougie187> you guys get trashed?
Nov 03 18:47:10 <jasta> hehe, oh yeah
Nov 03 18:47:15 <jasta> that was the biggest party we've ever had i think
Nov 03 18:47:21 <jasta> next to maybe my friend fred's going away
Nov 03 18:47:47 <Dougie187> well thats cool
Nov 03 18:47:57 <Dougie187> we went to a party. but it was pretty low key
Nov 03 18:48:14 <Dougie187> there were about 4 - 5 couples there who didn't know each other
Nov 03 18:48:21 <Dougie187> it was very similar to a high school dance
Nov 03 18:50:05 <jasta> hehe...i think we had about 80 - 100 people at our party
Nov 03 18:50:18 <jasta> i was surveying the wreckage on saturday...
Nov 03 18:50:28 <jasta> there were at least 8 bottles of booze totally gone and well over 150 beers
Nov 03 18:50:37 <jasta> it was a warzone :)
Nov 03 18:55:31 <Disconnect> 8 bottles and 150 beers.. that sounds fairly sober for 100 people ..
Nov 03 18:55:50 <geist> yeah
Nov 03 18:56:37 <benley> not all 100 have to get smashed
Nov 03 18:56:42 <benley> just enough of them for it to be ridiculous
Nov 03 18:56:52 <Disconnect> 1/10th bottle and 1.5 beers .. so 2 mixed drinks and a beer for everyone there (or vice versa depending on who pours)
Nov 03 18:58:39 <Disconnect> maybe our crowd drinks harder or something but BoS we go through at -least- half a case of 1.75 rum and/or tequila, 10 or so cases of beer and cider and such, half to 3/4 case of 2L real sodas (coke, etc plus 2-4 bottles of diet) and 5-6 misc 750ml bottles (vodka, jack, etc etc) plus tons of mixers
Nov 03 18:58:45 <jasta> im only measuring the easy ones, actually
Nov 03 18:58:55 * Disconnect had to find a crooked liquor rep before all that became affordable :)
Nov 03 18:59:11 <jasta> i cant actually measure how much beer, for instance
Nov 03 18:59:18 <jasta> i just know how much i bought, and i can see a few cases laying around
Nov 03 18:59:21 <jasta> so i measure those :)
Nov 03 18:59:26 <jasta> no idea about all the six packs and such
Nov 03 18:59:38 <jasta> and i dont count any liquor other than rum, vodka, whiskey, and tequila.
Nov 03 18:59:59 <jasta> plenty of girls get smashed on lesser booze ;)
Nov 03 19:00:08 <jasta> also most girls are wasted after 4 drinks
Nov 03 19:00:19 <Disconnect> BoS might be cheating also, starts at 3pm or so and usually runs until 11am or later. more time :)
Nov 03 19:02:37 <unix_lappy> wow, you guys must be in your late 20's to 30s+
Nov 03 19:02:45 <unix_lappy> 8 bottles is some sort of trophy?
Nov 03 19:02:47 <unix_lappy> peh, i say...
Nov 03 19:02:52 <geist>  hah
Nov 03 19:02:59 <Dougie187> unix_lappy: and how old are you?
Nov 03 19:03:20 <unix_lappy> early 20's.
Nov 03 19:03:23 <DannyB> kids these days and their inability to process alcohol
Nov 03 19:03:25 <geist> got a german and a russian on my team at work, and they drink us all into the ground
Nov 03 19:03:26 <DannyB> back in my day
Nov 03 19:03:34 <DannyB> we put distributors out of business every night!
Nov 03 19:03:44 <benley> geist: oh god I was at a house the other day where I was the only person who didn't speak russian natively
Nov 03 19:03:44 <geist> been working on my tolerance
Nov 03 19:03:53 <benley> geist: was a terrifying amount of drinking going on there
Nov 03 19:03:57 <geist> they really do drink vodka like water!
Nov 03 19:04:16 <jbq> well, it's 60% water
Nov 03 19:04:20 * Disconnect puts them into business :) so far our few parties and a little selling on the side have sent my rep on 3 or 4 fancy 'schmooze the top sellers' trips. and he's only been my crooked rep for about a year :) 
Nov 03 19:04:25 <benley> "it's only 40% alcohol!"
Nov 03 19:04:26 <unix_lappy> vodka IS water...with a little carbon mixed in.
Nov 03 19:04:45 <benley> unix_lappy: and technically, it's water with sugar in it!
Nov 03 19:04:50 <geist> next they'll go after our precious bodily fluids...
Nov 03 19:05:03 <Disconnect> yah never drink with russian chicks. they get crazy, but in a stab-you-in-the-face kind of way, not in a take-stuff-off-and-kiss-each-other kind of way.
Nov 03 19:06:08 <geist> jbq: i dont listen to you. you drink american beer and drive american sports cars
Nov 03 19:06:14 <geist> clearly you are tainted
Nov 03 19:06:47 * Disconnect has a knack for wandering outside (or back inside, or -away-) when they get that look.. only once did someone actually get stabbed but its not uncommon for them to either threaten or to egg any available russian males into beating the hell out of each other, the hosts, the walls, or local unlucky foliage..
Nov 03 19:08:03 <Disconnect> friend had a russian roommate. after 2-3 instances of these (at otherwise calm low-key bbqs and stuff) he forbid her from inviting anyone over who spoke russian. seemed to work out pretty well, although i did miss the eyecandy.
Nov 03 19:08:30 <geist> heh
Nov 03 19:08:33 <jbq> geist: my cars were build in canada and mexico ;)
Nov 03 19:08:39 <jbq> s/build/built/
Nov 03 19:08:39 <infobot> jbq meant: geist: my cars were built in canada and mexico ;)
Nov 03 19:09:01 <geist> s/cars/test
Nov 03 19:09:08 <geist> foobar baz
Nov 03 19:09:11 <geist> s/foobar/wtf
Nov 03 19:09:21 <geist> s/foobar/wtf/
Nov 03 19:09:21 <infobot> geist meant: s/wtf/wtf
Nov 03 19:09:28 <geist> ahhh, needs trailing slash
Nov 03 19:09:40 <geist> s/slash/AWESOME/
Nov 03 19:09:41 <infobot> geist meant: ahhh, needs trailing AWESOME
Nov 03 19:10:00 * geist shakes his head at the terrible waste of the internet
Nov 03 19:10:58 <marcone> s/shakes his head at/applauds/
Nov 03 19:11:02 <Disconnect> infobot is generally a waste of everything
Nov 03 19:11:53 <geist> jbq: you didn't get roped into this android thing, did you?
Nov 03 19:12:05 <geist> you did!
Nov 03 19:12:07 <geist> holy crap
Nov 03 19:12:11 * jbq got assimilated
Nov 03 19:12:17 <jbq> resistance is futile
Nov 03 19:12:23 <geist> i think it's just me and jeffb that didn't make the transition
Nov 03 19:12:34 <geist> the warp drive didn't work, we materialized in another galaxy
Nov 03 19:12:39 <Phlogi> hi friends :)
Nov 03 19:12:51 <Phlogi> what android/g1 forum can you recommend?
Nov 03 19:12:52 <michaelnovakjr> hi mccaiin
Nov 03 19:13:06 <jbq> geist: I have an american sports car that can re-materialize you in the right spot, pronto.
Nov 03 19:13:35 <geist> nah, we're tainted, since we worked on the iphone
Nov 03 19:13:55 <geist> we carry a stench of apple that cannot be washed away with american steel
Nov 03 19:14:09 <michaelnovakjr> i have a G1 and an iPhone..... >>> G1 is looking better to me :)
Nov 03 19:14:12 <geist> only time will heal our wounds
Nov 03 19:14:56 * jbq distills rotten apples, lets them age in wood barrels, calls the result calvados... tasty!
Nov 03 19:15:23 <Phlogi> so many forums are out there :S
Nov 03 19:15:47 <Den0ts> im about to ship my iphone to its new owner
Nov 03 19:15:52 <Den0ts> i got 499 for it on egay
Nov 03 19:15:57 <Den0ts> buy it now after day 2
Nov 03 19:16:04 <geist> not bad
Nov 03 19:24:48 <unix_lappy> michaelnovakjr: that certainly isnt the consensus
Nov 03 19:25:01 <michaelnovakjr> ...
Nov 03 19:25:15 <unix_lappy> on iphone vs g1, iphone wins more often than not.
Nov 03 19:25:28 <unix_lappy> Den0ts: 3g?
Nov 03 19:25:50 <f00f-> G1 fanboiz
Nov 03 19:26:00 <michaelnovakjr> unix_lappy: of course... i didn't say it was the consensus... i said from my point of view its better
Nov 03 19:26:20 <Den0ts> yea
Nov 03 19:26:22 <Den0ts> 8 gig
Nov 03 19:26:29 <Phlogi> is there a channel for the g1?
Nov 03 19:26:34 <unix_lappy> michaelnovakjr: yea i get that, i'm just saying.  that's certainly not the consensus in the gadget world.
Nov 03 19:26:37 <Den0ts> lol why would there be
Nov 03 19:26:40 <Den0ts> isnt this chan good enough
Nov 03 19:26:58 <Phlogi> nope :D
Nov 03 19:26:59 <Phlogi> its not
Nov 03 19:27:47 <Phlogi> what ways are there to listen to music with that phone? I mean there is no earphone jack thing right?
Nov 03 19:28:05 <michaelnovakjr> its easy to look that up online Phlogi
Nov 03 19:28:13 <michaelnovakjr> it comes with headphones
Nov 03 19:28:20 <Den0ts> phlogi i ordered adapters , mini usb to 3.5
Nov 03 19:28:20 <michaelnovakjr> its all on T-Mobile's site
Nov 03 19:28:24 <Phlogi> michaelnovakjr: hmm what kind of headphones?
Nov 03 19:28:28 <Den0ts> less than 2$ free shipping
Nov 03 19:28:33 <Phlogi> Death_Syn: hmm how big is that thing? oh ok
Nov 03 19:28:38 <f00f-> Den0ts link
Nov 03 19:28:44 <Den0ts> un momento
Nov 03 19:28:58 <Phlogi> michaelnovakjr: is the t-mobile site the best source atm?
Nov 03 19:29:05 <Phlogi> I mean for such type of information
Nov 03 19:29:18 <michaelnovakjr> for G1 specs sure, they have the information
Nov 03 19:29:41 <Phlogi> I mean those adapters are annoying
Nov 03 19:30:10 <michaelnovakjr> Phlogi: you don't need an adapter for what comes with the G1
Nov 03 19:30:17 <f00f-> umm
Nov 03 19:30:27 <f00f-> what comes with the G1 is a stupid decision
Nov 03 19:30:31 <f00f-> why not just expose a 3,5 mm jack
Nov 03 19:30:32 <michaelnovakjr> why
Nov 03 19:30:56 <michaelnovakjr> f00f-: i agree, but it does'nt require an adapter for what is inside
Nov 03 19:31:10 <michaelnovakjr> previously HTC did require such an adapter, this time around they didn't
Nov 03 19:31:21 <f00f-> an adapter is still an adapter :)
Nov 03 19:31:31 <Death_Syn> i got an ExtUSB to 2.5mm adapter and it works nicely
Nov 03 19:31:37 <Death_Syn> I'm probably going to get a splitter soon
Nov 03 19:31:53 <Den0ts> ok i lied its 2.77
Nov 03 19:32:15 <f00f-> what's the link buddy
Nov 03 19:32:44 <Den0ts> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280277868575
Nov 03 19:32:53 <Den0ts> sorry i was trying to get the real link, not the one for my accont
Nov 03 19:34:26 <DannyB> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=fetishtoysforspiders
Nov 03 19:34:28 <DannyB> crap
Nov 03 19:35:05 <f00f-> not going to click that one
Nov 03 19:35:09 <f00f-> okay
Nov 03 19:35:18 <f00f-> so it can be had for cheaps
Nov 03 19:35:21 <Disconnect> i got the 3-way, it makes the music player go insane :(
Nov 03 19:35:55 <Den0ts> does google docs have an ope api
Nov 03 19:36:02 <Den0ts> like can you apply it to an html document
Nov 03 19:36:19 <Den0ts> so computer illiterate users can edit a web site like they would in google docs
Nov 03 19:36:26 <f00f-> yes
Nov 03 19:36:30 <f00f-> but there is also google sites
Nov 03 19:36:46 <Den0ts> explain
Nov 03 19:37:14 <f00f-> how do you think android.com is built?
Nov 03 19:37:19 <f00f-> using google sites
Nov 03 19:37:26 <Phlogi> michaelnovakjr: what do you mean?
Nov 03 19:37:44 <Phlogi> michaelnovakjr: whate comes with it? earphones?
Nov 03 19:37:49 <michaelnovakjr> yes
Nov 03 19:37:56 <michaelnovakjr> its all on t-mobiles websit
Nov 03 19:37:57 <michaelnovakjr> e
Nov 03 19:37:59 <Phlogi> anyone from europe here who bought a g1 via ebay?
Nov 03 19:38:10 <michaelnovakjr> this channel is getting stupid
Nov 03 19:38:12 <Phlogi> michaelnovakjr: link?
Nov 03 19:38:26 <f00f-> this channel is stupid
Nov 03 19:38:32 <f00f-> it's a real cesspit of g1 and android trolls
Nov 03 19:38:50 <Cedric2> ... and Google employees
Nov 03 19:38:52 <Cedric2> Avoid.
Nov 03 19:39:11 <kRutOn> do not want
Nov 03 19:39:17 * Disconnect would love to see most of this stuff answered in the topic, but thats not gonna happen..
Nov 03 19:39:23 <f00f-> umm
Nov 03 19:39:27 <f00f-> juts have a FAQ link
Nov 03 19:39:40 <f00f-> the ops dont understand
Nov 03 19:39:41 <Phlogi> this damn tmobile website sucks I only get to the flash
Nov 03 19:40:43 <Den0ts> i have a chan on efnet
Nov 03 19:40:44 <Den0ts> lol
Nov 03 19:40:54 <michaelnovakjr> good send everyone there
Nov 03 19:41:02 <Den0ts> lol
Nov 03 19:41:20 <michaelnovakjr> i liked it better when there were only 60 people in here :)
Nov 03 19:41:30 <Den0ts> theres only 64 in mine
Nov 03 19:42:20 <RyeBrye> Den0ts - what does yours focus on?
Nov 03 19:42:28 <Den0ts> android lol
Nov 03 19:42:46 * RyeBrye is looking for a G1 device hacking channel
Nov 03 19:42:56 <Den0ts> well we have more hackers than devs
Nov 03 19:42:56 <Den0ts> lol
Nov 03 19:42:58 <Den0ts> its efnet
Nov 03 19:44:01 <Disconnect> no you have more script kiddies than devs. thats different.
Nov 03 19:44:10 <michaelnovakjr> hahahahahaha
Nov 03 19:44:13 <Den0ts> we have some of those to
Nov 03 19:44:44 <RyeBrye> does EFnet still not let you register channels, so everyone has to run protective bot armies to keep a channel held down?
Nov 03 19:44:54 <Den0ts> lol right
Nov 03 19:44:56 <RyeBrye> I haven't hung out on EFNet for years
Nov 03 19:45:01 <Den0ts> weve already had some drama with that
Nov 03 19:45:03 <Den0ts> but i think thats over
Nov 03 19:45:19 <Den0ts> it was an internal issue with a op turned troll
Nov 03 19:45:50 <Phlogi> so do they ship with earphones via bluetooth or?
Nov 03 19:46:08 <zhobbs> Phlogi: headphones that plug into the usb port
Nov 03 19:46:31 <Phlogi> zhobbs: ah ok, and these are normal earphones or what type?
Nov 03 19:46:42 <Den0ts> nope
Nov 03 19:46:44 <Den0ts> they arent normal
Nov 03 19:46:50 <Den0ts> they are asymetrical
Nov 03 19:46:55 <Den0ts> and have a mic
Nov 03 19:46:57 <Den0ts> they sound great
Nov 03 19:47:00 <Den0ts> but are fugly
Nov 03 19:47:28 <Phlogi> I can't get the information as the damn flash menu does not work on t-mobile site
Nov 03 19:47:57 <Phlogi> Den0ts: ok, and for normal 3.5mm jack I need small adapter right?
Nov 03 19:48:07 <Den0ts> yea
Nov 03 19:48:08 <Den0ts> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280277868575
Nov 03 19:48:30 <Phlogi> anyone knows about the "zoll" gebühren when buying a 3g from usa?
Nov 03 19:48:38 <Phlogi> Den0ts: thanks
Nov 03 19:48:54 <Phlogi> that sucks but ok :D
Nov 03 19:49:15 <Phlogi> I would proabably remove the output plug and directly connect to my earphones :)
Nov 03 19:49:33 <Den0ts> its your charge port too
Nov 03 19:49:34 <Den0ts> lol
Nov 03 19:49:46 <Phlogi> ah I see thats standard htc thing.. they did that on other phones like the same
Nov 03 19:49:58 <Phlogi> Den0ts: No I mean changing just the adapter :)
Nov 03 19:50:23 <Phlogi> to get rid of the second connector
Nov 03 19:50:31 <Den0ts> oh you mean change your headphones to include the adapter
Nov 03 19:50:40 <Den0ts> instead of 3.5 headphones, make usb headphones
Nov 03 19:53:27 <herriojr> is there a way to get the stack trace to show all of it?  Instead of showing "... 13 more" where I can't see where it is happening?
Nov 03 19:55:44 <vol> herriojr: run in debug, it should stop on exceptions
Nov 03 19:59:44 <fadden> herriojr: it shows the "... N more" when they're redundant.
Nov 03 19:59:47 <zhobbs> jasta: when you stopSelf() in a Service does the process go away for you right away?
Nov 03 20:00:07 <michaelnovakjr> zhobbs: i believe it starts the killing process
Nov 03 20:00:08 <herriojr> has anyone tried using the Rome API in android?
Nov 03 20:00:08 <fadden> herriojr: the full stack trace would just repeat the frames in the full one.
Nov 03 20:00:12 <michaelnovakjr> zhobbs: i believe it starts the killing process
Nov 03 20:00:19 <herriojr> fadden: ok thanks
Nov 03 20:00:29 <michaelnovakjr> the logcat should show the action
Nov 03 20:01:22 <zhobbs> michaelnovakjr: yeah, it says it's stopped the service but the process still hangs around
Nov 03 20:01:49 <zhobbs> and with that "ServiceViewer" apps people are bitching because my process is hanging around...even though I stopSelf()
Nov 03 20:03:10 <yakischloba> Oh man. I just finally saw my update notification but I accidentally dropped down the notification bar and now the update thing is gone...how do I get it back ?! :(
Nov 03 20:04:06 <zhobbs> yakischloba: it should only go away if you hit the "clear notifications" button or clear it programatically
Nov 03 20:04:19 <yakischloba> I did not
Nov 03 20:04:31 <yakischloba> at least not intentionally, and I certainly don't think I did on accident
Nov 03 20:05:57 <michaelnovakjr> zhobbs: does the thread owner die
Nov 03 20:07:06 <BluesLee> do the guys join this channel who ported android to the freerunner?
Nov 03 20:07:16 <zhobbs> michaelnovakjr: yeah...and looks like the process dies eventually I guess, just takes a while
Nov 03 20:08:24 <Disconnect>  ok the browser doing constant unnecessary reloads (esp of google reader, where its damaging behavior) is  really starting to piss me off
Nov 03 20:08:57 <DannyB> Disconnect:  profile and fix :)
Nov 03 20:09:23 <androoid> how come the market is crashing?????????? bah
Nov 03 20:09:24 <Disconnect> DannyB: i'd love to, except i can't seem to install an updated version of teh browser onto my locked down phone.
Nov 03 20:09:33 <michaelnovakjr> zhobbs: hm, do you have a handler that returns when the work is done?
Nov 03 20:09:46 <Disconnect> and since its got fsck-all for storage i really am loathe to replace yet -another- stock app with renamed versions
Nov 03 20:09:47 <fadden> Disconnect: can't be done in the emulator?
Nov 03 20:09:56 <DannyB> you can use the emulator
Nov 03 20:10:00 <DannyB> and you can run apps off sdcard, iirc
Nov 03 20:10:10 <DannyB> maybe i misremember
Nov 03 20:10:10 <DannyB> :)
Nov 03 20:10:11 <Disconnect> off sdcard? since when?
Nov 03 20:10:20 <michaelnovakjr> yea not off the sdcard guys :)
Nov 03 20:10:24 <Disconnect> its not 'secure"
Nov 03 20:10:34 <michaelnovakjr> the directory /data/app is not mounted there :)
Nov 03 20:10:38 <zhobbs> michaelnovakjr: yeah, I'm logging out that I'm about to stopSelf(), and I see ActivityManager "Stopping service: XXX" in logcat
Nov 03 20:10:40 <michaelnovakjr> so no sdcard is a no go
Nov 03 20:11:15 <michaelnovakjr> zhobbs: do you have a race condition?
Nov 03 20:11:33 <BHSPitWeb> Does anyone know the keymap android uses at the kernel level?
Nov 03 20:12:14 <michaelnovakjr> BHSPitWeb: i see this stuff in my logcat  /system/usr/keychars/qwerty.kcm.bin
Nov 03 20:12:23 <zhobbs> michaelnovakjr: sometimes, but I think they're handled appropriately
Nov 03 20:12:55 <fadden> BHSPitWeb: development/emulator/keymaps/ has some stuff
Nov 03 20:13:22 <BHSPitWeb> fadden: in the SDK?
Nov 03 20:13:39 <BHSPitWeb> michaelnovakjr:  I don't have access to a G1 :/
Nov 03 20:13:44 <fadden> build/target/board/generic/ has some .kcm / .kl
Nov 03 20:13:50 <fadden> BHSPitWeb: no, in the GIT sources
Nov 03 20:13:54 <BHSPitWeb> ah
Nov 03 20:14:41 <michaelnovakjr> BHSPitWeb: is it not on the emulator?
Nov 03 20:14:57 <michaelnovakjr> but yea, check the source :)
Nov 03 20:15:36 <BHSPitWeb> I'm just trying to find the events mapped to some of the phone's buttons, like KEY_PHONE and etc
Nov 03 20:16:06 <BHSPitWeb> I'm wondering if Android has certain expectations for what a "Home" button or a "Talk" button should be mapped to
Nov 03 20:16:11 <fadden> BHSPitWeb: do you have /system/bin/getevent ?
Nov 03 20:16:47 <RyeBrye> just out of curiosity - anyone know the key size the firmware flashes are signed with?
Nov 03 20:18:32 <BHSPitWeb> fadden, not to my knowledge
Nov 03 20:19:31 <BHSPitWeb> I just now came across /arch/arm/mach-omap1/board-*.c, which relates to what I'm looking for
Nov 03 20:20:16 <BHSPitWeb> I'm working on a kernel for my (non-G1) device, and I'm trying to get examples of what is used for certain keys
Nov 03 20:20:43 <BHSPitWeb> like what event is appropriate for taking the user back to the home screen, for instance
Nov 03 20:26:33 <BHSPitWeb> back in a while
Nov 03 20:28:27 <oinkboink> there are thaughts about android apps on the pc-desktop?
Nov 03 20:28:42 <jaek> is there any way to tether my g1 to my lappy right now?
Nov 03 20:29:47 <Cedric2> jaek: somebody posted a proxy app on Market. It's not tethering per se, but it can help
Nov 03 20:30:50 * jaek checking out this "proxy app"
Nov 03 20:32:01 <jaek> Cedric2, what should i search for?
Nov 03 20:35:39 <Cedric2> jasta: mmh can't find the app any more, sorry
Nov 03 20:37:11 <Cedric2> I meant jaek2:
Nov 03 20:37:21 <Cedric2> (I blame automatic completion)
Nov 03 20:43:54 <RyeBrye> Is the code in the source.android.com for the recovery stuff the same as the stuff that gets built and deployed on our devices?
Nov 03 20:43:55 <herriojr> has anyone else tried the Rome API for RSS?
Nov 03 20:44:47 <fadden> RyeBrye: yes
Nov 03 20:45:19 <RyeBrye> Is there a reason the public key is distributed in the update files, and the phone doesn't use one already stored on the device to verify the signatures?
Nov 03 20:46:09 <andyross> Surely that's a stub key, no?  It's obviously a non-starter if the key isn't fixed with the device.
Nov 03 20:53:07 <RyeBrye> Yeah, it's probably nothing
Nov 03 20:53:38 <chouman82> hey guys, any of you faced problem with the inputstream on the G1?
Nov 03 20:54:03 <chouman82> where all of a sudden the inputstream just dies and that in the browser when you go to any url, a blank page shows up
Nov 03 20:58:24 <RyeBrye> back to work
Nov 03 21:02:13 <Den0ts> is there an rss for the market place?
Nov 03 21:02:28 <Den0ts> i want one that provides news on new and updated apps
Nov 03 21:02:36 <Den0ts> so i can add it to google reader
Nov 03 21:02:38 <Den0ts> and check it every day
Nov 03 21:02:41 <Disconnect> no
Nov 03 21:02:52 <Disconnect> but there is a magic key called comma (looks like , ) that you can use instead
Nov 03 21:02:53 <Disconnect> of enter
Nov 03 21:02:55 <Disconnect> when you want to indicate
Nov 03 21:02:57 <Disconnect> a pause
Nov 03 21:03:07 <Den0ts> yea sorry
Nov 03 21:03:15 <Den0ts> but somtimes i want to add ideas after i hit enter
Nov 03 21:03:22 <Disconnect> :)
Nov 03 21:05:02 <Den0ts> so circuit city is about to go under?
Nov 03 21:05:22 <vol> if we're lucky
Nov 03 21:05:46 <trigatch4> yeah
Nov 03 21:05:54 <trigatch4> Cicruit Shitty is trading at 38 cents
Nov 03 21:05:54 <Den0ts> i like circuit city better than best buy
Nov 03 21:05:58 <trigatch4> WHAT?
Nov 03 21:06:06 <bstock> they both suck
Nov 03 21:06:07 <trigatch4> Circuit City is a piece of dung
Nov 03 21:06:11 <Den0ts> the people at best buy ar emorongs, at least at circuit city they dont have anyone to help you
Nov 03 21:06:17 <Den0ts> morons
Nov 03 21:06:22 <vol> that's because they fired everyone about a year ago
Nov 03 21:06:23 <trigatch4> my most recent post on phandroid illustrates exactly why
Nov 03 21:06:25 <vol> as a cost-cutting move
Nov 03 21:06:25 <Disconnect> ok so except for the bit about android being less secure than blackberry (etc) the verizon slam sheet is perfectly accurate..
Nov 03 21:06:31 * Disconnect doesn't get the outrage
Nov 03 21:07:29 <bstock> Disconnect: you have a link to that 'slam sheet'?
Nov 03 21:07:35 <Disconnect> http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/10/31/verizon-wants-you-to-know-why-you-shouldnt-buy-the-g1/
Nov 03 21:07:42 <trigatch4> Disconnect: to me, the funny part is they slam Android for being "limited" and also slam it for being "open"
Nov 03 21:07:50 <trigatch4> verizon limits customers more than any other carrier
Nov 03 21:07:52 <Den0ts> i liked the line about their selection
Nov 03 21:07:57 <trigatch4> and they are the furthest from open alive
Nov 03 21:08:48 <Den0ts> oh this is a diff article
Nov 03 21:08:49 <Den0ts> With so many high-end exclusive phones you would think that Verizon would turn a blind eye to this.
Nov 03 21:08:55 <Den0ts> lol
Nov 03 21:09:00 <Disconnect> trigatch4: erm, until g1 tmob was worse. at least a verizon phone can successfully run non-verizon java apps that require net access
Nov 03 21:09:17 <Den0ts> it rung home with me because my friend went and got a new verizon phone last night and he said they only had 2 phones with wifi?
Nov 03 21:09:22 <trigatch4> until the G1
Nov 03 21:09:24 <trigatch4> is the key word
Nov 03 21:09:29 <trigatch4> the sheet is all about the G1
Nov 03 21:09:30 <michaelnovakjr> verizon has no idea
Nov 03 21:09:36 <trigatch4> at least TMO is changing
Nov 03 21:09:43 <trigatch4> and they are being handsomely rewarded...
Nov 03 21:10:03 <michaelnovakjr> they said the samehing about the iPhone, didn't stop anyone then did it?
Nov 03 21:10:05 <andyross> The most interesting thing about that link is that Verizon feels the need to spin this at all.
Nov 03 21:10:53 <trigatch4> well... their sales people should be informed
Nov 03 21:11:07 <andyross> Not sure how far upstream verizon passed on Android for the launch.  Certainly the G1 won't run on their network, but I don't know if there was CDMA hardware being prototyped, or for how long.
Nov 03 21:11:07 <trigatch4> it would be negligient for sales reps to NOT know the positives and negatives of the G1
Nov 03 21:11:14 <michaelnovakjr> it doesn't matter, verizon still has the worst phones
Nov 03 21:11:44 <wasabi> I think i'll go to a verizon store today and quiz them about android.
Nov 03 21:11:48 <Disconnect> michaelnovakjr: until the g1 :)
Nov 03 21:12:00 <trigatch4> except the LG Voyager = best keyboard alive
Nov 03 21:12:06 <trigatch4> and BlackBerry Storm is going to sell like hotcakes
Nov 03 21:12:13 <wasabi> I don't much want a G1 though
Nov 03 21:12:17 <wasabi> I want a phone I can replace the OS on
Nov 03 21:12:49 <andyross> Most of those gripes are legitimate, though.  Which brings up a good question: what's the real problem with not having video capture?  The camera app too seems really slow.  Is this a hardware thing or just something that never got gotten do during development?
Nov 03 21:13:05 <wasabi> probably just stuff that needs to be fixed.
Nov 03 21:13:10 <wasabi> But didn't prevent release.
Nov 03 21:13:16 <RyeBrye> To use signapk - I need a x509 public key and a pk8 private key, right?
Nov 03 21:13:18 <wasabi> Same as any device.
Nov 03 21:13:25 <trigatch4> andyross: i think instead of pretending they would be able to make the best camera apps, they just decided to focus on other things and leave that stuff up to devs
Nov 03 21:13:25 <andyross> Not a lot of complexity in running a framegrabber and spitting it through a codec though...
Nov 03 21:13:38 <wasabi> Maybe a crappy developer worked on it.
Nov 03 21:13:46 <wasabi> And nobody cleaned it up in time for release.
Nov 03 21:13:48 <wasabi> Shit happens.
Nov 03 21:13:58 <andyross> trigatch4: I'm hopeful that's it too, but the general disappointment with the camera app hints to me that this might be a hardware misfeature.
Nov 03 21:14:06 <RyeBrye> I would google signapk - but it's being covered up! http://www.google.com/search?q=signapk ;)
Nov 03 21:14:17 <trigatch4> for example why couldn't Kodak come out with an Android App that uses some of their patented tecnology for photo editing and other integration with their competitive advantages
Nov 03 21:14:20 <wasabi> So there ever going to be an android phone I can flash?
Nov 03 21:14:46 <andyross> wasabi: From a carrier, out of the box?  Unlikely.
Nov 03 21:14:54 <Disconnect> i'd expect that before you start going down the final road for release you do basic functionality tests of the core apps: gmail, email, camera, music player, commercial apps (market, mp3)
Nov 03 21:14:59 <wasabi> I'd be fine with just being able to buy it seperately.
Nov 03 21:15:04 <wasabi> like any other gsm phone
Nov 03 21:15:13 <Disconnect> except for the g1, which did basic functionality tests of gmail.
Nov 03 21:15:17 <trigatch4> andyross: the G1 is by no means the best hardware on the market, but its very competitive if you look at whats out there and for similar prices
Nov 03 21:15:20 <trigatch4> and thats for the phone itself
Nov 03 21:15:33 <trigatch4> throw in the android market and the iphone is quite literally the only competition
Nov 03 21:15:47 <trigatch4> which is also the beauty
Nov 03 21:15:52 <trigatch4> people are complaining about hardware now
Nov 03 21:16:00 <andyross> Sure sure.  But I'm talking specifically about the camera hardware, and whether or not the slowness of the builtin camera application and the lack of video are related to an underlying hardware problem.  I'm not flaming about the platform as a whole.
Nov 03 21:16:00 <wasabi> I just wish OpenMoko didn't flop. =(
Nov 03 21:16:02 <spikebike> wasabi openmoko
Nov 03 21:16:03 <trigatch4> but in 2 years there will be TONS of phones on TONS of carriers all over the world
Nov 03 21:16:08 <trigatch4> you'll have plenty of choice
Nov 03 21:16:13 <BluesLee> wasabi: YEAH
Nov 03 21:16:38 <spikebike> android could help openmoko
Nov 03 21:16:38 <wasabi> Openmoko screwed up royally. So much work b eing put into such a featureless piece of software. To many man hours spent on tweaking technology nobody cared about.
Nov 03 21:16:44 <BluesLee> are there any freerunner images available yet?
Nov 03 21:16:45 <wasabi> like hiring those guys to rework gtk theming.
Nov 03 21:16:51 <trigatch4> i'm sad the camera doesn't have a flash
Nov 03 21:16:55 <wasabi> Should have spent money on making a dialer that works first.
Nov 03 21:16:58 <spikebike> I wonder if HTC will sell open g1's direct
Nov 03 21:17:00 <bmunger_> i want android for my htc titan
Nov 03 21:17:03 <trigatch4> phones need flash cameras by default
Nov 03 21:17:05 <Disconnect> trigatch4: or it'll hit walmart and too many non-hackers will expect it to Just Work and it'll get a stigma it never loses until it fades away. (hmm... qpe?..)
Nov 03 21:17:07 <trigatch4> it should be standard
Nov 03 21:17:24 <trigatch4> Disconnect: that won't happen
Nov 03 21:17:27 <andyross> Flash (optical, not electronic) eats battery like nobody's business though.
Nov 03 21:17:28 <BluesLee> wasabi: the problems are deeper
Nov 03 21:17:29 <trigatch4> it works just fine?
Nov 03 21:17:53 <trigatch4> to a regular consumer, the G1 does much more than they need/want to
Nov 03 21:18:01 <trigatch4> there are small problems and tics here or there
Nov 03 21:18:04 <trigatch4> but every phone has them
Nov 03 21:18:13 <Disconnect> andyross: e90 manages to have a -super- bright flash without seriously impacting battery life. or at least, i took upwards of 20-30 flash pics without noticably affecting my power level at the end of the day.
Nov 03 21:18:25 <wasabi> BluesLee: I dunno. I'd be fine with a cell phone with a GSM unit, and shit load of flash, and a plain ol' Ubuntu install with an X server and plain ol Gtk apps, reusing maemo bits.
Nov 03 21:18:27 <BluesLee> wasabi: non supported ti gsm chip, non documented at commands which solve some issues like echo ...
Nov 03 21:18:38 <wasabi> You know.
Nov 03 21:18:43 <Disconnect> trigatch4: to a regular consumer, they're going to expect the camera to work. (oops). and to play music. (oops). and possibly to read non-gmail email (oops)
Nov 03 21:18:46 <wasabi> If nokia just pt a GSM until into the maemo, and fixed the battery lifetime.
Nov 03 21:18:49 <wasabi> I'd be cool with that too!
Nov 03 21:19:06 <andyross> What's a "regular consumer" though?  Certainly the G1 has a top notch browser whose only competition is the iPhone.  As an audio player, it's kinda mediocre.  And it has no business document features at all, which makes it a very poor competitor to windows mobile for those users.  Everyone's got their own desires.
Nov 03 21:19:30 <BluesLee> wasabi: never ownded a nokia tablet
Nov 03 21:19:47 <BluesLee> wasabi: i would go the same way with a zaurus;-)
Nov 03 21:20:15 <Disconnect> andyross: that list is a set of basic, core functionality that is available in every free phone from just about every carrier. not to mention being things that the iphone does either well or amazingly well...
Nov 03 21:20:36 <Disconnect> wasabi: there's the wimax one.
Nov 03 21:21:07 <BluesLee> wasabi: something likae that http://www.intomobile.com/2008/10/14/sharp-9225h-looks-like-a-sub-netbook.html
Nov 03 21:22:03 <michaelnovakjr> i love how verizon bashed the no exchange support
Nov 03 21:22:09 <michaelnovakjr> its coming :)
Nov 03 21:22:57 <Disconnect> michaelnovakjr: ..so's christmas
Nov 03 21:23:20 <michaelnovakjr> what's that mean?
Nov 03 21:24:01 <Disconnect> imap fix is "coming" .. exchange support is "coming" .. scheduler stability is "coming" .. but none of this matters until tmob collects enough fixes to be worth the cost/risk of another OTA upgrade.
Nov 03 21:24:33 <michaelnovakjr> it'll come soon enough
Nov 03 21:25:03 <Disconnect> so unless you have inside info that tmob is gonna push updates on a short release cycle (which would be kinda nuts from their perspective) "its coming" doesn't mean much..
Nov 03 21:25:33 <Disconnect> admittedly exchange can be pushed as an addon app. but .. ugh. core os functions don't belong in the teeny tiny user space :)
Nov 03 21:26:04 <trigatch4> ummmmmm
Nov 03 21:26:14 <spikebike> maybe moto will sell android apps direct to end users that are open
Nov 03 21:26:19 <trigatch4> the camera works fine minus any editing crap which im guess will come with an app
Nov 03 21:26:20 <spikebike> (they currently sell direct)
Nov 03 21:26:24 <trigatch4> i can play music
Nov 03 21:26:28 <trigatch4> and i can check non gmail email
Nov 03 21:26:29 <trigatch4> so?
Nov 03 21:26:51 <spikebike> maybe moto will sell android phones  direct to end users that are open
Nov 03 21:26:56 <spikebike> (sorry for the typo)
Nov 03 21:27:04 <michaelnovakjr> open?
Nov 03 21:27:10 <spikebike> reflashable
Nov 03 21:27:13 <trigatch4> spikebike: motodroid not coming until winter 2009
Nov 03 21:27:43 <michaelnovakjr> i doubt you'd be able to flash it
Nov 03 21:28:09 <Disconnect> trigatch4: amazon mp3 purchaser is broken for _ filenames in r19 (and many people are still there). and - at least for me - the music player behaves like an epileptic cd player if i plug in a headset adapter (plays 15-90 seconds, then goes to the main player page and skips to a new song, forgetting history). and imap email doesn't save read/delete status to the server in any sort of reliable way (afaik deletes still don't get posted, and read/unread gets pos
Nov 03 21:28:16 <spikebike> frustrating that even with the source to android you can't change anything 8-(
Nov 03 21:28:51 <michaelnovakjr> you guys complain a lot for a system that is more open than anything else on the market right now
Nov 03 21:29:01 <michaelnovakjr> instead of crying about it why not help fix it
Nov 03 21:29:06 <spikebike> more open?
Nov 03 21:29:37 <michaelnovakjr> i'm exhausted, you get the point
Nov 03 21:29:40 <spikebike> tons of phones allow java development
Nov 03 21:29:44 <Disconnect> michaelnovakjr: s/open/broken/ and i'd love to. explain how i can flash a debug-enabled browser and i'll get hacking on my biggest pet peeves.
Nov 03 21:29:46 <jbq> There are also several efforts going on to get Android running on OpenMoko phones.
Nov 03 21:30:09 <michaelnovakjr> spikebike: what does java have anything to do with it
Nov 03 21:30:12 <trigatch4> Disconnect: early adopters always pay a price. if you want to know exactly how a product works before you buy it, wait a coupla weeks and read reviews from others who have it online.
Nov 03 21:30:17 <michaelnovakjr> its the fact you have access to lots of stuff
Nov 03 21:30:38 <Disconnect> source availability on a locked platform means i can find out why its broken, and still not be able to fix it.
Nov 03 21:30:38 <michaelnovakjr> Disconnect: what would that achieve?
Nov 03 21:30:55 <trigatch4> the G1 isn't perfect... but neither is any other phone out there
Nov 03 21:30:57 <michaelnovakjr> who says you can't fix it?
Nov 03 21:31:11 <trigatch4> you're still within your 30 days... can't you just return it if you don't like how it works?
Nov 03 21:31:18 <trigatch4> nobody is forcing you to keep it
Nov 03 21:31:21 <spikebike> trigatch4 agreed, but the source just makes it twice as frustrating that you can't fix it
Nov 03 21:31:22 <androoid> it's only been a week????????????
Nov 03 21:31:42 <michaelnovakjr> why are we saying you can't fix it
Nov 03 21:31:45 <Disconnect> michaelnovakjr: ok. so again, explain how i can put the fixed (or further broken, or debug-enabled, or just purple-backgrounded) version onto the device
Nov 03 21:31:52 <michaelnovakjr> what is preventing you from coding a fix and submitting a patch?
Nov 03 21:32:11 <Disconnect> inability to test the fix in the conditions that i'm producing the bug
Nov 03 21:32:22 <michaelnovakjr> Disconnect: you can load it in the emulator and submit the patch to google, if you are a good programmer your fix ends up in a build :)
Nov 03 21:32:25 <fadden> Disconnect: doesn't repeat on the emulator?  (Yes, I'm repeating myself somewhat.)
Nov 03 21:33:19 <Laz> trigatch4: its 14 days unless you live in cali
Nov 03 21:33:24 <michaelnovakjr> just because there's no instant gratification doesn't mean it can't be fixed
Nov 03 21:34:08 <michaelnovakjr> Disconnect: have you written any software yet?
Nov 03 21:34:13 <romainguy___> Disconnect: the emulator is good enough for the Android team to test on, it should be good enough for you :)
Nov 03 21:35:13 <Disconnect> trigatch4: i never said it wasn't someday going to be good. i said, specifically, right now, it shouldn't have gotten out of beta and -certainly- shouldn't be going mass market (@ walmart and similar) because when Joe Random gets this thing he's gonna rapidly discover the only thing it can do well is web browse (mostly) and gmail.
Nov 03 21:35:39 <michaelnovakjr> i've done more than that so far :)
Nov 03 21:35:44 <michaelnovakjr> without problems too :)
Nov 03 21:35:48 <fadden> Disconnect: we do a pretty damn good job of calculating tips too.
Nov 03 21:35:57 <Disconnect> haven't tried but ok :)
Nov 03 21:35:58 <romainguy___> fadden: and predict the weather
Nov 03 21:36:04 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Nov 03 21:36:06 <michaelnovakjr> and cut ringtones
Nov 03 21:36:16 <Disconnect> weather apps are hit or miss, too many of them need gps and too many people are having gps probs
Nov 03 21:36:47 <spikebike> yeah
Nov 03 21:36:53 <Disconnect> (fwiw my gps experience has been passable. takes forever to get a hit while moving at -all- but it does get hits in 'adversarial' areas like inside the office building and under overhangs and such)
Nov 03 21:36:54 <fadden> (old joke) if the phone is wet, it's raining.  If it's covered in white stuff, it's snowing. ...
Nov 03 21:37:09 <spikebike> google needs a add this position for this access point to the db
Nov 03 21:37:10 <Disconnect> if its on fire, it must have been a christmas present...
Nov 03 21:37:26 <spikebike> seems silly to have a resolution of half a city when such info is trivial to get
Nov 03 21:37:26 <Disconnect> oh yah i almost forgot, wifi is hit or miss
Nov 03 21:37:37 <romainguy___> sounds like you have a defective device :)
Nov 03 21:37:45 <romainguy___> GPS and WiFi have been working fine for months for me
Nov 03 21:37:46 <michaelnovakjr> yea :)
Nov 03 21:37:55 <michaelnovakjr> my wifi is great and 3G is fast too
Nov 03 21:38:37 <Disconnect> romainguy__: if i powercycle the ap, it will connect for as much as a few hours. (sure, sounds like an ap problem, except for the n800 thats had a steady connection for the past 2 months...)
Nov 03 21:39:07 <romainguy___> Disconnect: sorry to hear that
Nov 03 21:39:09 <michaelnovakjr> Disconnect: it sounds like you don't want to get your device checked because you'll have nothing to complain about :)
Nov 03 21:39:09 <Disconnect> 3g is pretty good. although i've recently started having issues where coming out of the metro tunnel it gets wedged in a no-data state. have to toggle airplane mode (or reboot) and hten its like nothing happened
Nov 03 21:39:24 <Disconnect> michaelnovakjr: i'd love to swap devices. how do i back up my bookmarks and sms's and stuff?
Nov 03 21:39:27 <romainguy___> (my ap used to go down after 2 hours of VPN... changed the AP, problem went away :))
Nov 03 21:39:55 <spikebike> disconnect easy, open your phone and perform some surgery on the surface mount chips ;-)
Nov 03 21:40:02 <michaelnovakjr> :)
Nov 03 21:40:21 <spikebike> if only nokia shipped a n800 with a cell interface
Nov 03 21:40:26 <Disconnect> ap itself is fine, doesn't affect any other connections. and its not just home ap, work and public wifi ones behave the same way.. (and conveniently, i'm usually also using my mbp so i can get a solid look at how good/bad the signal is and such.)
Nov 03 21:41:04 <michaelnovakjr> the only time wifi didn't work was when i typed the password wrong :)
Nov 03 21:41:11 <Disconnect> heh
Nov 03 21:41:16 <Disconnect> with wpa2 personal?
Nov 03 21:41:20 <michaelnovakjr> yea
Nov 03 21:41:22 <michaelnovakjr> and WEP
Nov 03 21:41:28 <michaelnovakjr> i've connected to both
Nov 03 21:41:49 <michaelnovakjr> i'm liking the device a lot
Nov 03 21:42:14 <Disconnect> (heard from various posters that they have wpa2 problems also)
Nov 03 21:42:51 <anno^da_> Have you seen that : http://cgi.ebay.de/T-Mobile-Google-G1-Android-G-1-NEU-UNLOCKED-DEUTSCHLAND_W0QQitemZ140278400544QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140278400544&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1229|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318   <- 722 EUR for a G1 (1135$)
Nov 03 21:43:25 <michaelnovakjr> that's expensive, not worth it
Nov 03 21:43:49 <vol> jeez.
Nov 03 21:44:23 <Dialekt> so how are the guinea pigs holdin up?
Nov 03 21:44:27 <Dialekt> pretty solid ?
Nov 03 21:44:33 <anno^da_> It is a joke. And result of the US/UK only strategy :(
Nov 03 21:46:10 <waldo-g1> woohoo nerw connectbot in market
Nov 03 21:46:42 <wastrel> we like the connectbot
Nov 03 21:48:19 <michaelnovakjr> i will say, the one thing i would really like to see is the market app updated
Nov 03 21:48:27 <michaelnovakjr> it would be nice to support application updates
Nov 03 21:48:29 <dd94300> what is Stk? it is listed as one of the application in source code........
Nov 03 21:49:42 <umdk1d3> and yay!  it keeps your old host database intact  =D
Nov 03 21:49:43 <spikebike> waldo sweet
Nov 03 21:49:52 <spikebike> I was hoping for ssh keys
Nov 03 21:50:31 <anno^da_> Could some of the google guys (swetland, morrildl or romainguy) comment on the rumoured developer devices? Would be nice to know something about a timeframe.
Nov 03 21:50:33 <spikebike> does the connectbot author hang out here?
Nov 03 21:50:45 <michaelnovakjr> ^^
Nov 03 21:51:08 <nightwatch> hi there Im trying to download the adroid source code using that script repo but it is toooo slowww.. and is not my connection... any advice to fix it?
Nov 03 21:51:53 <Cedric2> jaek?
Nov 03 21:52:06 <Disconnect> i think connectbot is broken tho, it didn't request gps or the ability to send sms's or anything. how do we know its any good if it doesn't need all the permissions it can possibly have?
Nov 03 21:52:15 <michaelnovakjr> nightwatch: just grab a coke and let it download :)
Nov 03 21:52:18 <jaek> Cedric2, huh?
Nov 03 21:52:48 <Cedric2> I found the proxy:
Nov 03 21:52:52 <michaelnovakjr> boy Disconnect you are quite the negative today huh?
Nov 03 21:52:53 <cmonex> wow hi nightwatch
Nov 03 21:52:56 <Cedric2>  http://graha.ms/androidproxy/
Nov 03 21:53:01 <Cedric2> Haven't tried it, so no guarantees
Nov 03 21:53:04 <trigatch4> Disconnect is filling in for jasta ;) jk
Nov 03 21:54:18 <umdk1d3> Disconnect: rofl  ;)
Nov 03 21:54:34 <Disconnect> michaelnovakjr: that was obviously a joke, but take it however you like. in an environment where 3/4 of the simple notepad apps require net access, gps and the ability to read/write my contacts.... (and where we're successfully training users to pull a windows and just keep clicking 'yes' until its installed) it seemed appropriate to highlight one of the few apps that doesn't pull all that crap.
Nov 03 21:54:47 <michaelnovakjr> Disconnect: :)
Nov 03 21:54:52 <michaelnovakjr> i know what you mean
Nov 03 21:55:04 <unix_lappy> random question, anyone here use google desktop, copernic desktop, etc?
Nov 03 21:55:06 <michaelnovakjr> it is pretty bad
Nov 03 21:55:18 <michaelnovakjr> Disconnect: i was going to add GPS to the file manager
Nov 03 21:55:25 <michaelnovakjr> just to fit in
Nov 03 21:55:36 <Disconnect> michaelnovakjr: word around here is that some apps are literally just using it to spy on users.
Nov 03 21:55:37 <BHSPitWeb> Well it helps to know exactly WHERE on your flash chip the data is stored
Nov 03 21:55:41 <umdk1d3> it would be nice if you could decide to reject a permiossion from an app
Nov 03 21:55:45 <Disconnect> yah
Nov 03 21:55:50 <BHSPitWeb> so you can find it faster later
Nov 03 21:55:53 <michaelnovakjr> umdk1d3: that would be nice
Nov 03 21:56:10 <Disconnect> like i was saying last week.. gps doesn't need to be allowed or uninstalled. its perfectly ok to tell the app 'no fix' forever until i say it can know.
Nov 03 21:56:14 <BHSPitWeb> umdk1d3: I'm kind of disappointed that's not the case
Nov 03 21:56:16 <BHSPitWeb> hi by the way
Nov 03 21:56:21 <romainguy___> Disconnect: it works for GPS
Nov 03 21:56:23 <nightwatch> bit it is not download the source yet.. is just that manifest thing..
Nov 03 21:56:25 <romainguy___> doesn't work so well for other things
Nov 03 21:56:26 <umdk1d3> oh hey again BHSPitWeb   :)
Nov 03 21:56:31 <romainguy___> like accessing contacts, reading settings, etc.
Nov 03 21:56:36 <spikebike> hrm, so today it's basically impossible to use an external gps?
Nov 03 21:56:42 <spikebike> I.e. vis bluetooth
Nov 03 21:57:08 <spikebike> er via
Nov 03 21:57:09 <Disconnect> romainguy___: gps, net access, contacts ('no contacts'), sms's ('no sms' and 'can't send') .. much of it can be covered with whatever handles "no cell signal/no net access"
Nov 03 21:57:46 <Disconnect> romainguy___: its not 100% but its close. can't write perms is easy enough (noop/success), although it may result in unexpected application flailing about
Nov 03 21:58:05 <languish> I figured out how to get around the apps that uselessly want contact and gps info.  I took out the battery. HAH. I fooled THEM.
Nov 03 21:58:11 <romainguy___> the problem is that you want apps to be able to distinguish between an error/no data and a permission refusal
Nov 03 21:58:18 <romainguy___> just failing is not acceptable
Nov 03 21:58:30 <romainguy___> I'm not saying having fine grained permissions is not a good idea
Nov 03 21:58:31 <romainguy___> it is
Nov 03 21:58:33 <romainguy___> we totally agree
Nov 03 21:58:43 <kRutOn> spikebike: unfortunately, they do hang out here
Nov 03 21:58:49 <romainguy___> it has to be done the right way though
Nov 03 21:59:16 <michaelnovakjr> agreed
Nov 03 21:59:38 <spikebike> kRutOn the connectbot author?
Nov 03 21:59:42 <Disconnect> i don't think apps should be able to distinguish between that. in sdk1 there's no way to do it anyway, so sdk1 needs to just hide it behind no-data-available. sdk2 can say "tell me if a perm is blocked" but that needs to be toggleable by the user - maybe i don't want this shopping list to freak at me every 2 minutes because i won't let it hit gps...
Nov 03 21:59:43 <spikebike> nick?
Nov 03 21:59:58 <kRutOn> spikebike: kRutOn and umdk1d3
Nov 03 22:00:02 <umdk1d3> spikebike: yea both of us lol
Nov 03 22:00:20 <_avatar> great job, guys.
Nov 03 22:00:24 <_avatar> connectbot is very well done
Nov 03 22:00:49 <languish> spikebike. go to connectbots donation page, and use it. then bug them about new features and tell them how wonderful they are
Nov 03 22:00:50 <languish> :P
Nov 03 22:00:51 * Disconnect should prolly file that as a bug
Nov 03 22:00:58 <spikebike> is it opensource?
Nov 03 22:01:01 <umdk1d3> it still has some quirks, but is relatively solid
Nov 03 22:01:09 <spikebike> the new update looks very promising
Nov 03 22:01:27 <umdk1d3> spikebike: yep, kRutOn even has svn builds autocreated and put into featured downloads
Nov 03 22:01:44 <spikebike> heh
Nov 03 22:02:04 <spikebike> krut0n cool, I was thinking of writing a client that was basically a hardware token for ssh-agent and openid
Nov 03 22:02:22 <spikebike> i.e. new windows/logins on your desktop would talk to your g1 and ask for yes/no
Nov 03 22:02:32 <umdk1d3> ooh now that sounds interesting
Nov 03 22:02:34 <spikebike> much like the hardware tokens that are fairly common
Nov 03 22:02:37 <umdk1d3> like having a securid token?
Nov 03 22:02:43 <spikebike> ya
Nov 03 22:02:58 <spikebike> so you say on your desktop firefox -> openid website
Nov 03 22:02:58 <umdk1d3> problem is that its not entirely isolated
Nov 03 22:03:02 <kRutOn> yeah, I was thinking Mac OS X Keychain
Nov 03 22:03:08 <spikebike> or ssh -l root randomserver
Nov 03 22:03:33 <umdk1d3> the reason securid works so nicely is there is a big shared secret that is pretty much embedded in that token and hard to extract
Nov 03 22:03:34 <spikebike> not entirely isolated?
Nov 03 22:03:44 <Disconnect> you need bluetooth access, which iirc is not available in the sdk
Nov 03 22:03:48 <spikebike> no
Nov 03 22:03:53 <spikebike> could use XMPP
Nov 03 22:04:55 <spikebike> so basically ssh-agent or an openid server/proxy encrypts with the g1's private key
Nov 03 22:04:58 <spikebike> er public key
Nov 03 22:05:09 <spikebike> saying something like timestamp, ip, auth request, token
Nov 03 22:05:29 <spikebike> g1 displays that info and say yes/no, then encrypts the response in the auth/prox/openid
Nov 03 22:05:35 <spikebike> public key
Nov 03 22:05:51 <spikebike> sends that over XMPP and the openid/ssh-agent acts appropiately
Nov 03 22:06:01 <spikebike> the cool thing is the g1's private key never leaves the g1
Nov 03 22:06:16 <spikebike> and even with insecure communication you shouldn't be leaking, sniffable, replayable, etc.
Nov 03 22:06:39 <spikebike> no worries about sharing passwords across sites
Nov 03 22:06:44 <spikebike> keyboard sniffers
Nov 03 22:06:48 <spikebike> shoulder sniffing
Nov 03 22:06:52 <spikebike> er surfing
Nov 03 22:08:13 <BHSPitWeb> spikebike: when the last 4 or 5 messages in a channel are from you, that's how you know when you need to slow down or write longer messages :P
Nov 03 22:08:25 <BHSPitWeb> or... 15
Nov 03 22:08:29 <michaelnovakjr> yea whoa
Nov 03 22:08:34 <spikebike> heh, k
Nov 03 22:08:48 <BHSPitWeb> umdk1d3: how's that other project coming along?
Nov 03 22:09:00 <BHSPitWeb> or has it not been a priority
Nov 03 22:09:22 <umdk1d3> BHSPitWeb: other priorities right now  :/
Nov 03 22:09:31 <umdk1d3> but feel free to get started on it if you like
Nov 03 22:09:50 <unix_lappy> you talking about five?
Nov 03 22:09:59 <umdk1d3> unix_lappy: nah something else  ;)
Nov 03 22:10:17 * unix_lappy hopes five is the other priority :-P
Nov 03 22:10:30 * unix_lappy cracks his whip!
Nov 03 22:10:38 <BHSPitWeb> five?
Nov 03 22:10:48 <michaelnovakjr> Five is jasta's project
Nov 03 22:11:06 <unix_lappy> ahh, what was your active project umdk1d3 ?
Nov 03 22:11:12 <BHSPitWeb> umdk1d3: what I would get started on would be something specific to my situation, not the crazy thing you aspired for ;)
Nov 03 22:14:22 <unix_lappy> http://code.google.com/p/five/
Nov 03 22:14:42 <BHSPitWeb> oh, I remember seeing that
Nov 03 22:14:43 * donomo is still waiting for RC29
Nov 03 22:17:04 <spikebike> seem like connectbot can generate, but not export keys.  I can't find anything when I mount the sd card, or a way to get it to send one.
Nov 03 22:18:07 <Disconnect> there was a way to get it into clipboard, although yes it seems like that is gone
Nov 03 22:18:10 <RyeBrye> Anyone know how to use signapk to sign jars for android? I know you can use the jarsigner, but since the signapk exists I was just curious if I could get it to work
Nov 03 22:21:17 <BHSPitWeb> I like saving android screenshots on my iPod Touch, firing up the Photos app and pretending.
Nov 03 22:21:29 <BHSPitWeb> Some day... sigh
Nov 03 22:22:37 <donomo> BHSPitWeb: haha
Nov 03 22:24:58 <spikebike> you need a VNC server for the g1 and a vnc client for the iphone
Nov 03 22:28:42 <spikebike> actually the local User group wants an android demo/talk
Nov 03 22:28:56 <spikebike> vnc or equiv would be useful there as well (to use with a projector)
Nov 03 22:32:05 <BHSPitWeb> spikebike: iPhone has it :P
Nov 03 22:32:15 <spikebike> client? or server and client?
Nov 03 22:32:18 <BHSPitWeb> both
Nov 03 22:32:35 <BHSPitWeb> the server requires jailbreak, though
Nov 03 22:32:57 <unix_lappy> BHSPitWeb: so why didnt you just get a G1?
Nov 03 22:33:14 <BHSPitWeb> unix_lappy: because my existing HTC is fine
Nov 03 22:33:37 <unix_lappy> strtrk?
Nov 03 22:33:40 <BHSPitWeb> yeah
Nov 03 22:39:37 <ttuttle> good evening
Nov 03 22:39:56 <trigatch4> hello
Nov 03 22:41:22 <herriojr> DalvikVM doesn't support ClassLoader, right?
Nov 03 22:41:36 <fadden> It does support ClassLoader.
Nov 03 22:42:06 <fadden> What it doesn't support is a way to load classes from a DEX file that isn't installed by the package manager.
Nov 03 22:42:23 <fadden> or generate classes on the fly.
Nov 03 22:45:49 <spikebike> I wonder if DalvikVM will escape android
Nov 03 22:46:22 <fadden> I wonder if Dalvik VM will be replaced on android.
Nov 03 22:46:30 <fadden> We deliberately made either scenario feasible.
Nov 03 22:47:13 <d0nets> i didnt know this but if you slide up anywhere on the bottom, the apps blind slides up
Nov 03 22:47:19 <d0nets> they should make 3 individual tabs
Nov 03 22:47:28 <d0nets> and have the other 2 be custom
Nov 03 22:47:32 <d0nets> like one be a terminal
Nov 03 22:48:29 <d0nets> the middle be apps, and the right be somethin else
Nov 03 22:51:03 <BHSPitWeb> d0nets: who is "they"?  The magic team of programmers who want you to be happy?
Nov 03 22:51:15 <BHSPitWeb> :P
Nov 03 22:51:28 <d0nets> yes
Nov 03 22:51:31 <d0nets> sorry
Nov 03 22:51:32 <d0nets> WE
Nov 03 22:51:41 <d0nets> I ME JEW
Nov 03 22:52:18 <BHSPitWeb> Hey, I think that's fine, but let's keep religion off-topic shall we
Nov 03 22:52:53 <d0nets> yea sorry
Nov 03 22:53:02 <d0nets> i forget this chan is on freenode
Nov 03 23:07:36 <pjv> There's some part of the intent loose coupling I seem to be missing: in the Notepad example a new Note is inserted (created) by sending an INSERT action intent with the right uri. But the intent filter for the note editor activity does not expect a specific uri, but instead a specific mimeType. I'm trying to do the same but mine fails probably because the mimeType couldn't be matched. How is the translation from uri to mimeType done (is it even done?)? Is this vi
Nov 03 23:10:55 <vol> Is this vi
Nov 03 23:10:59 <vol> you kind of ended there.
Nov 03 23:11:23 <vol> iirc you have to register this in the manifest?
Nov 03 23:11:32 <vol> or specify it in the program
Nov 03 23:11:45 <vol> go over the tutorial again
Nov 03 23:11:54 <obra> '$TIMEOFDAY, #android
Nov 03 23:12:07 <pjv> hmm, vol, I'll take a look again
Nov 03 23:12:51 <pjv> but maybe I can rephrase my question to this:
Nov 03 23:13:12 <pjv> Is there a short way to debug a "No activity found to handle Intent" ActivityNotFoundException? Some way you can see why it didn't match where you expected the intent to match?
Nov 03 23:14:04 <vol> perhaps; my memory of this is a little hazy. You might want to wait for someone else.
Nov 03 23:15:09 <pjv> vol: thx anyway
Nov 03 23:17:43 <d0nets> has anyone been able to get the vnc viewer working?
Nov 03 23:17:52 <ttuttle> There's a VNC viewer?!
Nov 03 23:17:54 <spikebike> oh, there is one?
Nov 03 23:17:57 <spikebike> appstore?
Nov 03 23:18:05 <ttuttle> s/appstore/market/;
Nov 03 23:18:11 <languish> lol
Nov 03 23:18:12 <spikebike> ya
Nov 03 23:18:31 <d0nets> no
Nov 03 23:18:34 <d0nets> its still in dev
Nov 03 23:18:39 <d0nets> there is an apk but it doesnt work
Nov 03 23:18:49 <languish> One thing I have to say I'm happy about with the G1 is the call quality
Nov 03 23:18:59 <spikebike> same here
Nov 03 23:19:04 <languish> (throwing romainguy a bone)
Nov 03 23:19:04 <spikebike> volume is rather nice as well
Nov 03 23:19:07 <languish> :D
Nov 03 23:19:11 <d0nets> i think it is http://code.google.com/p/android-vnc-viewer
Nov 03 23:19:11 <herriojr> I've had lots of problems with data working properly myself
Nov 03 23:19:46 <languish> d0nets, don't assume all code.google project .apk's are updated for release functionality
Nov 03 23:19:54 <spikebike> heh, yeah
Nov 03 23:20:02 <spikebike> I found one I was interested in that was 9 months old or so
Nov 03 23:20:23 <d0nets> well but if your ead the issues
Nov 03 23:20:28 <d0nets> it says how to get it working
Nov 03 23:20:39 <languish> d0nets, on 1.0?
Nov 03 23:20:41 <languish> or pre?
Nov 03 23:20:58 <languish> it nakes a difference
Nov 03 23:21:01 <languish> *makes
Nov 03 23:21:02 <d0nets> on g1
Nov 03 23:21:19 <languish> ok again...
Nov 03 23:23:00 <d0nets> eh?
Nov 03 23:24:11 <languish> i just read the issue, perhaps you should reread it.
Nov 03 23:26:00 <d0nets> yea i will
Nov 03 23:26:02 <d0nets> gimme a sec
Nov 03 23:26:34 <d0nets> im trying to help a buddy get his vid drivers workin in ubuntu, you using 8.10 yet?
Nov 03 23:27:02 <languish> at the office on test boxes yeah
Nov 03 23:29:07 <d0nets> hes having probs with his ati graphics
Nov 03 23:29:28 <d0nets> thats the usual ubuntu problem : /
Nov 03 23:32:46 <d0nets> I can get it to to run on my phone by using eclipse but when I generate an apk file that file does not install.
Nov 03 23:32:54 <d0nets> thats what i was referring to
Nov 03 23:32:58 <d0nets> you cant install it with an apk
Nov 03 23:33:01 <d0nets> you have to use eclipse
Nov 03 23:40:11 <d0nets> anyone wanna try to get this working with me
Nov 03 23:40:26 <vol> you have to sign it or something
Nov 03 23:40:30 <vol> read up the install instructions
Nov 03 23:40:35 <vol> particularly the "I'm not using eclipse" part
Nov 03 23:41:04 <vol> http://code.google.com/android/intro/develop-and-debug.html#otherides
Nov 03 23:41:05 <vol> this
Nov 03 23:42:44 <d0nets> what?
Nov 03 23:43:57 <vol> there's an ant script you have to run. Look through the build.xml file; it's the same thing that eclipse uses.
Nov 03 23:45:08 <d0nets> i dont have eclipse on this pc, lemme whip out the laptop
Nov 03 23:47:17 <languish> interesting. neighbor had the same problem with syncing contacts getting hung up on an image file that I did yesterday
Nov 03 23:48:07 <languish> got him squared away, but he's ready to return all his family's g1's now and get off t-mobile after all the problems
Nov 03 23:48:37 <languish> *sigh* I told him not to get it in the first place, but the sales reps at tmo were raving about it
Nov 03 23:50:39 <Damm> I really wish the Calendar (Google Calendar) didn't suck... can't do repeat for every other week or custom
Nov 03 23:50:43 <Damm> wth is that about?
Nov 03 23:51:30 <ttuttle> Damm: file a bug?
Nov 03 23:51:42 <andyross> Damm: I thought google calendar *could* do all that stuff.  Is the complaint that the UI on the phone can't?
Nov 03 23:53:24 <Damm> andyross, I go to calendar.google.com and I setup a new event, and I get repeat for Daily, Every weekday Mon-fri, every mon, weds, fri, every tues, and thurs, weekly, monthly, yearly.
Nov 03 23:53:41 <Damm> there is no option for custom, there is also no option for every other week.
Nov 03 23:54:10 <andyross> Dunno, I'm not a user.  But my wife loves it, and is constantly scheduling complicated stuff for me (that now ends up on my phone automatically, sigh...).
Nov 03 23:54:30 <Damm> I use iCal, and well... it doesn't live up to iCal in any way or manner.
Nov 03 23:54:46 <Damm> tiz how I schedule my bills (paying them) otherwise I forget.
Nov 03 23:55:20 <languish> <Damm> there is no option for custom, there is also no option for every other week.
Nov 03 23:55:39 <languish> damn, you can make it repeat every other week
Nov 03 23:55:44 <Damm> languish, how?
Nov 03 23:55:52 <languish> select
Nov 03 23:55:52 <languish> weekly and have it repeat every 2 weeks.
Nov 03 23:56:00 <Damm> bah
Nov 03 23:56:04 <Damm> that's silly
Nov 03 23:56:08 <languish> but it works
Nov 03 23:57:22 <languish> damn, http://www.google.com/support/calendar/bin/search.py?query=repeat+every+other+week&ctx=en%3Asearchbox
Nov 03 23:57:27 <andyross> Yeah, I think this was mostly user error.  Changing software stacks is disruptive, and things that work differently can be really upsetting.
Nov 03 23:58:47 <Damm> languish, available in the webui
Nov 03 23:58:52 <Damm> phone ui didn't do it right.
Nov 03 23:58:55 <Damm> but that works ;)
Nov 03 23:58:55 <Damm> ty
Nov 03 23:58:58 <languish> :)
Nov 03 23:59:18 <languish> my wife does the same thing
Nov 03 23:59:21 <languish> heh
Nov 03 23:59:54 <languish> but rthen I do it back to her. and now, I'm going to use this boundary app, to set location based alets on her
Nov 04 00:00:04 <languish> *alerts
Nov 04 00:00:36 <Damm> that should be painful
Nov 04 00:00:42 <languish> so wehn she's near the store that carrys my favorite chocolate, it'll remind her to get some.  and when she's near the store that carrys my favorite soda, it reminds her to get some
Nov 04 00:00:56 <languish> ;DZ
Nov 04 00:01:23 <cmonex> hehe nice idea.
Nov 04 00:01:37 <languish> having one of these apps integrated with the calendar would be even better
Nov 04 00:02:41 <languish> cmonex :)
Nov 04 00:02:58 <cmonex> :)
Nov 04 00:03:34 <languish> so i can set location based alerts only on certain dates/times
Nov 04 00:04:14 <languish> also, enabling the gps only during a particular time period, so it doesn't run down battery the whole day
Nov 04 00:06:24 <languish> "I know she arrives at the station between 4pm and 5:30pm on Thursdays, enable gps during this time period, and set a location based alert when she's near my favorite deli to remind her pick up my favorite antipasto salad, which we're always out of by Thrusday
Nov 04 00:07:24 <languish> then again, she's gonna have me picking up gallons of milk on the way home from work
Nov 04 00:07:36 <kRutOn> mmm, week-old salad
Nov 04 00:07:37 <languish> :|
Nov 04 00:08:31 <kRutOn> "whenever she's near that guy' house I suspect her of cheating on me with, call me and enable speakerphone."
Nov 04 00:09:06 <languish> isn't there an app like that already?
Nov 04 00:09:16 <languish> lulz
Nov 04 00:09:54 <languish> but yea, an at or chron function would have been really nice
Nov 04 00:11:09 <Chainfire> hi folks im having a hell of a time trying to compile android on ubuntu 8.04/amd64.. my libz seems to be incorrect - i think it wants a 32-bit libz and i only have 64-bit. apt-get for libz-dev doesn't help :( any clues?
Nov 04 00:11:38 <Damm> Chainfire, setup a chroot with libz for 32bit
Nov 04 00:11:42 <Damm> you basically need a 32bit chroot
Nov 04 00:12:40 <Chainfire> err... ok. is that a one-liner or do you have some links i could look at for that?
Nov 04 00:13:02 <Damm> dunno i haven't used ubuntu.
Nov 04 00:13:14 <Damm> however, i'm sure there's something decent on google
Nov 04 00:13:33 <Damm> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=24575
Nov 04 00:14:36 <Chainfire> thx
Nov 04 00:14:52 <Damm> otherwise you'd have to build the toolchain for arm
Nov 04 00:14:55 <Damm> and all that fun stuff.
Nov 04 00:14:57 <spikebike> heh
Nov 04 00:15:06 <spikebike> I was hoping the 64 bit stuff under ubuntu was better by now
Nov 04 00:15:09 <Damm> can't imagine the 64bit would make the sdk that much of a waste.
Nov 04 00:15:11 <spikebike> a friend has an interesting approach
Nov 04 00:15:16 <Damm> spikebike, nah
Nov 04 00:15:17 <spikebike> 100% 32 bit system
Nov 04 00:15:24 <spikebike> except the kernel which is 64 bit
Nov 04 00:15:28 <Damm> I have a simple one... server = 64bit
Nov 04 00:15:28 <spikebike> it actually works really well
Nov 04 00:15:33 <Damm> Macbook Pro = 32bit
Nov 04 00:15:36 <spikebike> well this was a desktop
Nov 04 00:15:37 <Damm> use MBP to use SDK.
Nov 04 00:15:48 <spikebike> so you can use >= 4GB quite well
Nov 04 00:16:23 <spikebike> yes don't have the issues with flash, java plugins, acroread, and other binaries
Nov 04 00:16:27 <spikebike> s/yes/yet/
Nov 04 00:16:27 <infobot> spikebike meant: yet don't have the issues with flash, java plugins, acroread, and other binaries
Nov 04 00:17:04 <spikebike> cute
Nov 04 00:17:30 <Damm> spikebike, gentoo's 32bit chroot is pretty decent.
Nov 04 00:17:59 <spikebike> I've does similar with ubuntu, it's just painful
Nov 04 00:18:03 <spikebike> 2 systems to patch
Nov 04 00:18:10 <Damm> nah gentoo does it via portage
Nov 04 00:18:13 <spikebike> ah
Nov 04 00:18:20 <Damm> just install the proper packages it installs it into /chroot
Nov 04 00:18:26 <Damm> installs X, etc etc for you
Nov 04 00:18:28 <Damm> very easy
Nov 04 00:18:50 <Damm> I also find the 64bit support on Gentoo to be quite mature.
Nov 04 00:18:52 <spikebike> still seems cleanest to just have a 64 bit kernel and 32 bit user space
Nov 04 00:18:58 <Damm> nah
Nov 04 00:19:02 <spikebike> no replication
Nov 04 00:19:14 <Damm> gentoo doesn't make you enter the chroot
Nov 04 00:19:27 <Damm> dlload() and ld handle the magic for you
Nov 04 00:19:46 <Damm> so the library's sit in /chroot, while your applications are wherever, and they can see your $HOME
Nov 04 00:19:49 <Damm> and so forth
Nov 04 00:20:13 <Damm> no required mount -o bind /dev /chroot/dev and then etc and bleh
Nov 04 00:20:24 <Damm> the idea of having to do apt-get update in your system and then a chroot is vile
Nov 04 00:22:23 <languish> what's the path to check device (not sync) updates again?
Nov 04 00:22:49 <languish> i could have sworn I'm looking in the right section
Nov 04 00:23:03 * jasta reads the topic
Nov 04 00:23:09 * jasta wonders why the topic gives anyone a vote
Nov 04 00:23:13 <jasta> as if #android is not already being logged
Nov 04 00:23:24 <Chainfire> dang for chroot i pretty much have to reinstall a whole 32-bit system into it ?
Nov 04 00:23:44 <andyross> That's kind of what a chroot is, yeah.
Nov 04 00:23:50 <fadden> jasta: can you move your device a little closer?  I can't quite guess your password from the keyboard noises.
Nov 04 00:24:06 <jasta> fadden: hmm?
Nov 04 00:24:22 <Damm> yes Chainfire.
Nov 04 00:24:26 <Chainfire> eh for gawds sake
Nov 04 00:24:33 <Chainfire> this is why I hate linux.
Nov 04 00:24:52 <jasta> fadden: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23android/20081102.html.gz
Nov 04 00:25:09 <Damm> Chainfire, this isn't a linux issue... this is a Ubuntu issue.
Nov 04 00:25:18 <Damm> take it up with Ubuntu for not handling things better.
Nov 04 00:25:43 <Damm> 64bit has been around for what a decade now? easily... there is absolutely no reason for 64bit support to be as pathetic as it is in ubuntu.
Nov 04 00:25:52 <Damm> well 32bit chroots
Nov 04 00:26:01 <Chainfire> so, what distro allows me to compile android without jumping through hoops easily?
Nov 04 00:26:06 <Damm> it should be smooth, it should be handled easily.
Nov 04 00:26:15 * Damm just mentioned one above... but it's more of an advanced linux distro.
Nov 04 00:26:17 <marcone> Chainfire: Ubuntu
Nov 04 00:26:29 <Damm> marcone, he runs 64bit ubuntu
Nov 04 00:26:33 <Damm> doesn't want to do a chroot
Nov 04 00:26:43 <Damm> or atleast an chroot that's easier then ubuntu's
Nov 04 00:26:50 <marcone> I'm running 64 bit Ubuntu too, and it builds Android OK
Nov 04 00:27:05 <fadden> marcone: with the open-source rel?
Nov 04 00:27:12 <andyross> Damm: its' more the debian/ubuntu tradition is to assume "64 bit" is a different architecture, where the redhat/sun tradition assumes it's a special case and actually complicates installation of "native" binaries.  The details are subtle, and not easily amenable to platform flamage.
Nov 04 00:28:00 <Damm> andyross, well Solaris had their crud detailed in the lib/sparcv9 and lib/ crud... their linker handled it almost sanely
Nov 04 00:28:05 <Chainfire> ok then marcone perhaps you can answer why I'm getting libz errors then? :) skipping all i got when searching for -lz, apt-get install libz-dev is no help
Nov 04 00:28:14 <Chainfire> (ubuntu 8.04)
Nov 04 00:28:16 <andyross> I can get through a "dalvikvm" build, which builds everything I want right now, on 64 bit ubuntu  just fine.  A full build stops right now looking for 32 bit X11 libraries which aren't available in development ("*.so") links.
Nov 04 00:28:18 <Damm> but I would overall say that 64bit solaris is a joke.
Nov 04 00:28:33 <marcone> Chainfire: you need to also install the 32 bit compatibility libraries
Nov 04 00:28:55 <Damm> andyross, right, and with Gentoo it will install the X11 32bit library's and base library's quite easily for you
Nov 04 00:29:09 <marcone> i.e. lib32z1-dev, etc
Nov 04 00:29:14 <Damm> all in a tightly packed folder.
Nov 04 00:29:17 <andyross> Must we get into a platform flame war?  Just stop.
Nov 04 00:29:33 * Damm puts himself out.
Nov 04 00:29:56 <Chainfire> thx marcone, that seems to work
Nov 04 00:30:02 <languish> OK, my 3G indicators keeps showing data transfer. I don't have any recent apps that would download, and it's not indicating that it's syncing. the logcat keeps showing the following...
Nov 04 00:30:03 <languish> E/SOCKETLOG(  189): add_recv_stats recv 0
Nov 04 00:30:03 <languish> E/SOCKETLOG(  189): add_recv_stats recv 0
Nov 04 00:30:03 <languish> E/SOCKETLOG(  189): add_recv_stats recv 0
Nov 04 00:30:26 <languish> continuously
Nov 04 00:30:49 <Damm> stop downloading pr0n?
Nov 04 00:30:57 <Chainfire> never.
Nov 04 00:31:21 <umdk1d3> noooo mexican fail
Nov 04 00:31:23 <jasta> yay, i get all night to hack on the Email app
Nov 04 00:31:32 <umdk1d3> lol wrong chan
Nov 04 00:31:34 <jasta> i will probably have a version worth giving to people :)
Nov 04 00:32:59 <yakischloba> jasta: maybe you can fix the bug that makes it useless to me ;)
Nov 04 00:33:59 <jasta> yakischloba: what's that?  i do know the code base quite well at this point
Nov 04 00:34:16 <Chainfire> so, a week ago or so somebody was saying something about a tutorial about running C++ code on Android ... that ever happen?
Nov 04 00:34:31 <yakischloba> jasta: Shortly after setting up a new account, I will re-open the Email app to find it back at the setup screen (my account has been removed)
Nov 04 00:34:53 <jasta> that doesn't surprise me too much.  the way that the app stores accounts makes absolutely no sense
Nov 04 00:35:00 <yakischloba> haha
Nov 04 00:35:06 <jasta> it uses SharedPreferences
Nov 04 00:35:16 <jasta> despite that it uses a sqlite3 database for everything else
Nov 04 00:35:20 <jasta> messages, folders, etc.
Nov 04 00:35:26 <yakischloba> yeah, it has happened to me without fail within about 4 hours every time. I just got RC29 so I tried it on the bus, and it happened within 2 minutes
Nov 04 00:35:44 <romainguy> jasta: in what this doesn't make sense?
Nov 04 00:35:55 <jasta> i can't parse that :)
Nov 04 00:35:57 <Damm> yakischloba, install K-9.
Nov 04 00:36:04 <yakischloba> K-9?
Nov 04 00:36:15 <Damm> email client
Nov 04 00:36:18 <yakischloba> Oh
Nov 04 00:36:18 <Damm> it's in themarket.
Nov 04 00:36:21 <jasta> K-9 mail is some dude hacking on the e-mail app, although somewhat recklessly i've heard.
Nov 04 00:36:38 <Damm> works quite well here.
Nov 04 00:36:55 <umdk1d3> has he opensourced his changes?
Nov 04 00:37:02 <Damm> yes
Nov 04 00:37:08 <Damm> code.google.com/p/k-9
Nov 04 00:37:14 <Damm> err
Nov 04 00:37:17 <Damm> code.google.com/p/k9mail
Nov 04 00:37:22 <umdk1d3> (why did he feel the need to fork?)
Nov 04 00:37:39 <spikebike> because he can ;-)
Nov 04 00:37:40 <Damm> because real men use forks and not spoons
Nov 04 00:38:11 <jasta> umdk1d3: because he was extremely impatient
Nov 04 00:38:47 <jasta> and he thought it was necessary for some dumb reason.  probably because he was too impatient to think about it :)
Nov 04 00:39:15 <gambler> jasta, your sending your changes back upstream?
Nov 04 00:39:55 <jasta> yes
Nov 04 00:40:50 <jasta> umdk1d3: i think he thought that he had to fork in order to load it onto his phone.  i, meanwhile, wrote a script that lets me load it onto the phone :)
Nov 04 00:41:10 <Chainfire> marcone> having the same issue now with X11 libs... lib32x11-dev doesn't seem to exist, though
Nov 04 00:41:22 <jasta> umdk1d3: he really didnt organize his changes to go upstream either.  major hackjobs all over
Nov 04 00:41:54 <umdk1d3> ouch  :/
Nov 04 00:42:53 <jasta> i still might tackle some of the issues and get them sent upstream
Nov 04 00:43:05 <jasta> even if i just clean up his patches to do it
Nov 04 00:43:32 <Damm> I look at it this way, the email client is a joke.
Nov 04 00:43:46 <Damm> atleast with K-9mail it works decently, and does what it says it does.
Nov 04 00:44:03 <Damm> I was annoyed when Email didn't push the 'delete' back to my IMAP server
Nov 04 00:44:13 <Damm> why even have a delete button if it doesn't do a thing?
Nov 04 00:44:14 <umdk1d3> "It's my intent to feed back improvements to the core Email application, though I'm not 100% sure everything we do will be deemed 'right' for a coreapplication. "  --quote from dev
Nov 04 00:44:18 <andyross> Chainfire: it's probably enough to just make .so.X.Y -> .so links for each of your lib32/libX*.so.X.Y libraries.
Nov 04 00:44:21 <jasta> Damm: i disagree, i just think its not feature rich
Nov 04 00:44:29 <jasta> it is well built, and open sourced.  there is a lot of potential to improve it easily
Nov 04 00:44:40 <marcone> Chainfire: I believe that is an Ubuntu packing issue. I ended up making the symlink for libX11.so myself
Nov 04 00:44:41 <umdk1d3> how many more features is he providing beyond the original app?
Nov 04 00:45:02 <jasta> umdk1d3: that is his quote, sure, and yet he has no commits currently
Nov 04 00:45:06 <Damm> performance, works like it should.
Nov 04 00:45:06 <gambler> Does it use Maildir or an Androidism to store the messages?
Nov 04 00:45:07 <jasta> so... :)
Nov 04 00:45:20 <Damm> jasta, he's been pushing revisions out pretty fast, how can he have no commits?
Nov 04 00:45:22 <jasta> gambler: the email app uses a sqlite3 database to store messages
Nov 04 00:45:33 <umdk1d3> Damm: i think he meant the core android tree
Nov 04 00:45:35 <jasta> Damm: because he has not bothered to contribute any of those changes to upstream
Nov 04 00:45:40 <Damm> umdk1d3, ah
Nov 04 00:45:47 <jasta> and i dont think he really intends to.  i talked to him a bit
Nov 04 00:46:19 <Damm> it wouldn't be that hard to submit it for him
Nov 04 00:46:24 <Damm> if you were so inclined
Nov 04 00:46:31 <jasta> he has a very reckless attitude about the whole thing, and he's perfectly happy letting his tree grow unmanagably apart from android's
Nov 04 00:46:40 <umdk1d3> jasta: i wonder if he expects other devs to do the actual porting back to the android tree?
Nov 04 00:46:43 <Chainfire> marcone> then it says its incompatible... doesnt seem to be a libX11 in my lib32
Nov 04 00:46:53 <Chainfire> symlink, incompatible
Nov 04 00:46:58 <jasta> Damm: well, at this point it is possible.  but eventually his changes are gonna be so far reaching and poorly thought out that it would be more work to fix them up than to just hack on the original app
Nov 04 00:47:13 <jasta> umdk1d3: he probably doesn't give a shit about porting back. :)
Nov 04 00:48:53 <marcone> Chainfire: not sure how to fix that. My system had it preinstalled.
Nov 04 00:51:10 <Chainfire> remove/install ia32-libs did the trick :/
Nov 04 00:52:03 <marcone> indeed:
Nov 04 00:52:03 <marcone> $ dpkg -S /usr/lib32/libX11.so.6
Nov 04 00:52:03 <marcone> ia32-libs: /usr/lib32/libX11.so.6
Nov 04 00:52:45 <Chainfire> funny i had it installed, though
Nov 04 00:53:20 <Chainfire> someday im going to know something about linux, haha
Nov 04 00:54:17 <andyross> Does anyone know which android component(s) fail in 64 bit mode, for that matter?  Seems like the simplest solution here would just be to fix whatever platform bug is forcing the mixed mode build.
Nov 04 00:56:16 <Chainfire> oh you got to be kidding me... android market requires google checkout... which is not available in my country... nice!
Nov 04 00:56:19 <languish> huh. it looks like that error was an attempt to update the g1
Nov 04 00:56:25 <languish> and it's failing
Nov 04 00:56:36 <languish> it wasn't able to download the update for some reason
Nov 04 01:01:21 * umdk1d3 criez, my G1 has a dead pixel now  :(
Nov 04 01:01:34 <languish> :(
Nov 04 01:01:36 <cmonex> mm,how would that happen?
Nov 04 01:01:48 <cmonex> Chainfire!!
Nov 04 01:01:51 <cmonex> you got a g1?
Nov 04 01:01:53 <languish> umdk1d3, get that strobe app and run it through
Nov 04 01:02:32 <jpalmer> Chainfire: you porting WMWifiRouter to android?
Nov 04 01:02:43 <umdk1d3> languish: ahh, good idea  :)
Nov 04 01:02:47 <languish> :)
Nov 04 01:02:51 <languish> good luck
Nov 04 01:03:13 <Chainfire> cmonex> it on its way here yah
Nov 04 01:03:18 <Chainfire> jpalmer> yes
Nov 04 01:03:28 * languish hugs Chainfire just because
Nov 04 01:03:33 <Chainfire> ltxda hooked me up
Nov 04 01:03:58 <umdk1d3> ahhhhhh /me seizes
Nov 04 01:04:07 <Chainfire> now i just need to come to terms with Android... The emulator crashing on me constantly :D
Nov 04 01:06:55 <cmonex> so uh, is ltxda also getting one? :O
Nov 04 01:07:00 <Chainfire> nah
Nov 04 01:07:13 <Chainfire> he could've gotten 4 dev devices but he passed
Nov 04 01:07:24 <Chainfire> and he didnt tell me... so he hooked me up with someone else ;)
Nov 04 01:08:47 <Chainfire> ltxda thinks it aint ready yet
Nov 04 01:08:47 <Chainfire> and that the G1 is friggin ugly... and I'd have to agree on that last point ;)
Nov 04 01:10:38 * languish doesn't find the G1 to be ugly, just not sexy
Nov 04 01:11:01 <languish> it's.. sorta basic/utilitarian
Nov 04 01:11:10 <languish> and woulda been a wet dream 5+ years ago
Nov 04 01:11:45 <Disconnect> yah but thats true of basically any modern tech. what would you give me for a wind u100 5 years ago?
Nov 04 01:12:01 <Disconnect> istr the vaio was close (only what, half the cpu power and 1/3 the storage?) and it ran 1500+
Nov 04 01:12:20 <Disconnect> now its retail $400
Nov 04 01:12:59 <wastrel> i don't think it's ugly
Nov 04 01:13:06 <wastrel> but then, i like my thinkpad too :]
Nov 04 01:14:19 <unix_infidel> Disconnect: heh, your wind u100 just dropped about 50 bucks.
Nov 04 01:14:26 <Disconnect> ?
Nov 04 01:15:55 <Chainfire> hmm smth else... did anyone notice certain commands that are available if you build Android are not available on the emulator? Wonder if they'll be available on the actual device...
Nov 04 01:17:22 <unix_infidel> Disconnect: you said you paid about 400 for it, it's down to 350.
Nov 04 01:17:53 <unix_infidel> which is pretty substantial for a netbook, around 15% off.
Nov 04 01:18:10 <Disconnect> @ bestbuy?
Nov 04 01:18:25 <unix_infidel> mhm.
Nov 04 01:18:58 <Disconnect> cool. take the reciept in, get $55 back. nice.
Nov 04 01:19:10 <waldo_> Chainfire: what commands?  what do you mean?
Nov 04 01:19:27 <unix_infidel> Disconnect: it's actually about par imho.
Nov 04 01:19:46 <Disconnect> if i can find someone else (retail) advertising it i'll get $55. otherwise its $50. still...
Nov 04 01:20:09 <tweakt> what can I apply a <style>resource to... ?
Nov 04 01:20:13 <unix_infidel> you can get a 6-cell 1000H for 430 off amazon with bigger hard drive.
Nov 04 01:20:30 <tweakt> for instance, I have 12 buttons, I want them to all be the same size and shape....
Nov 04 01:20:42 <tweakt> I'm thinking like I would use CSS right?
Nov 04 01:21:03 <tweakt> all I can find is textAppearance
Nov 04 01:21:27 <cmonex> [02:11:48] <Disconnect> yah but thats true of basically any modern tech. what would you give me for a wind u100 5 years ago?
Nov 04 01:21:33 <cmonex> nothing, too big =)
Nov 04 01:21:42 <Disconnect> unix_infidel: yah looked at that
Nov 04 01:22:07 <tweakt> oh nevermind, I see there is a seperate <dimen> resource type
Nov 04 01:22:44 <unix_infidel> Disconnect: ya I was considering it, I need to fend off my tech lust just a couple more weeks.
Nov 04 01:22:48 <unix_infidel> ;-)
Nov 04 01:22:59 <unix_infidel> probably save a couple hundered dollars.
Nov 04 01:23:22 <Disconnect> unix_infidel: isnt' that the one that isn't an atom tho?
Nov 04 01:23:39 <unix_infidel> Disconnect: no, the 1000H ships with an atom.
Nov 04 01:24:26 <Disconnect> yah $120 more tho
Nov 04 01:24:39 <unix_infidel> erm, sorry 1000HA.
Nov 04 01:24:41 <Disconnect> for the extra $120 i'll slap a touchscreen on the wind instead
Nov 04 01:25:11 <Disconnect> the wider touchpad might be nice
Nov 04 01:25:21 <Disconnect> damnit. wtf is beeping at me?
Nov 04 01:25:28 <unix_infidel> about 40 bucks more.  but you get 40GB more HD and a 6 cell.
Nov 04 01:26:16 <Disconnect> $425 vs $350
Nov 04 01:30:27 <jasta> fuck
Nov 04 01:30:31 <jasta> i waited too long and now traffic is bad
Nov 04 01:30:52 <Disconnect> so stay @ work and watch the skins trounce the steelers (about 15 miles from here)
Nov 04 01:31:56 <unix_infidel> jasta: irc-ing on the road?
Nov 04 01:32:25 <ralpht> hey, does anyone know how i can become root in the terminal app (in development settings on a build from the sources, not a g1)? I have su in xbin, but I can't run it (permission denied...).
Nov 04 01:33:28 * jbq_ is irc-ing on the road
Nov 04 01:33:47 <Disconnect> i heard rumours the eng units (some of htem at least) had sudo
Nov 04 01:33:59 <Chainfire> well whaddaya know... android compiled!
Nov 04 01:34:19 <ralpht> it builds su as part of the build
Nov 04 01:34:31 <ralpht> i just can't seem to run it (and i think that the permissions are okay on it)
Nov 04 01:39:05 <Gary|thinkpad> Anyone know off hand where applications are installed to? I can't find them for the life of me.
Nov 04 01:40:53 <romainguy> /data/app
Nov 04 01:41:30 <michaelnovakjr__> its a very hidden directory
Nov 04 01:41:35 <michaelnovakjr__> you can't read it
Nov 04 01:41:38 <Gary|thinkpad> /data is empty
Nov 04 01:41:39 <Gary|thinkpad> ahh :/
Nov 04 01:41:55 <michaelnovakjr__> Gary|thinkpad: there's no read permissions on it
Nov 04 01:42:26 <Gary|thinkpad> well, that's.... annoying.
Nov 04 01:42:32 <Chainfire> ok im officially stuck until I have the device in-hand... fookers.
Nov 04 01:42:58 <Gary|thinkpad> So there is no way to bypass that?
Nov 04 01:43:46 <Chainfire> so, you cant run apps as root on android?
Nov 04 01:43:59 <romainguy> nope
Nov 04 01:44:15 <Chainfire> aint that annoying
Nov 04 01:44:43 <Gary|thinkpad> this just keeps getting worse and worse, tbh :/.
Nov 04 01:44:45 * jbq_ would be annoyed if any app could get to his private data on the phone.
Nov 04 01:44:55 <romainguy> agreed
Nov 04 01:45:05 <Chainfire> if no app can get to it... how would you put this private data on there? :P
Nov 04 01:45:31 <jbq_> Each app can access its own data in there.
Nov 04 01:45:38 <jbq_> Just not other apps' data.
Nov 04 01:45:47 <Gary|thinkpad> jbq_: indeed, but YOU should be able to use root
Nov 04 01:45:55 <Chainfire> exactly
Nov 04 01:46:15 <jbq_> Gary|thinkpad: No, with DRM you shouldn't be allowed to get root access.
Nov 04 01:46:38 <Chainfire> i dont care what anybody says
Nov 04 01:46:49 <Chainfire> nobody knows best what to do with my stuff, except me
Nov 04 01:47:06 <romainguy> here we go again :)
Nov 04 01:47:08 <Chainfire> I should be able to be root, period. useful or not :)
Nov 04 01:47:29 <Gary|thinkpad> Chainfire: It's legal issues, likely.
Nov 04 01:47:35 <jbq_> I'm not a US citizen, so I don't get to vote in any way that's related to US copyright laws.
Nov 04 01:47:57 <romainguy> Chainfire: why do you want to be root?
Nov 04 01:48:05 <Gary|thinkpad> I went with the G1 because I figured it would be open, should have just gotten a jailbroken iPhone tbh :/.
Nov 04 01:48:09 <romainguy> (other than "because I want to be root")
Nov 04 01:48:24 <Chainfire> because I payed an assload of money for a device
Nov 04 01:48:30 <Chainfire> if I wish to be root, I should be.
Nov 04 01:49:03 <Chainfire> nobody is going to stop me from throwing it out of a window cause "thats your choice"
Nov 04 01:49:12 <Chainfire> but its not my choice to do <whatever> ?
Nov 04 01:49:23 <jbq_> I wish I could be rich, live in a large house, and have a pny.
Nov 04 01:49:25 <jbq_> pony
Nov 04 01:49:31 <Chainfire> pwny.
Nov 04 01:50:46 <jbq_> (oh, and while I'm at it, I wish the DMCA didn't exist!)
Nov 04 01:50:54 <Chainfire> its a principle thing, really
Nov 04 01:51:00 <Gary|thinkpad> There's a huge difference there. Root is locked off for a reason.
Nov 04 01:51:03 <Chainfire> and once you sign over your principles to Google... well :P
Nov 04 01:51:56 <Chainfire> the reason being... ?
Nov 04 01:52:03 <Gary|thinkpad> I still really want it, but the reason I want it is.... somewhat malicious :P and I think thats the main reason people would want root access
Nov 04 01:53:00 <Chainfire> i want it so I can do anything I please to something I payed for...
Nov 04 01:53:08 <Chainfire> wether or not I need it, is completely irrelevant
Nov 04 01:54:02 <Gary|thinkpad> You're starting to sound like a whiny 12 year old.
Nov 04 01:54:23 <Gary|thinkpad> Just wait for it to be cracked like everyone else.
Nov 04 01:54:26 * Disconnect thinks vpns are hardly 'malicious'. nor are backups.
Nov 04 01:54:55 <cmonex> Gary|thinkpad: if everyone is waiting for it to be cracked, it will never be cracked.
Nov 04 01:55:00 <cmonex> Disconnect gave some good reasons now =)
Nov 04 01:55:15 <Chainfire> haha
Nov 04 01:55:21 <Chainfire> whiny 12 year old :)
Nov 04 01:55:22 <cmonex> and yeah, tethering app!!
Nov 04 01:55:45 <Chainfire> you sounding like somebody who sold his soul long ago
Nov 04 01:55:50 <Gary|thinkpad> cmonex: Tethering is out, just a socks (v4?) proxy
Nov 04 01:56:07 <Chainfire> its a http proxy, actually
Nov 04 01:56:12 <Gary|thinkpad> Chainfire: Welcome to the phone scene. Android is still a very large step in the right direction.
Nov 04 01:56:14 <Gary|thinkpad> Ahh, annoying.
Nov 04 01:56:32 <Gary|thinkpad> Why wouldn't they make it into a socks? it'd be just as easy?
Nov 04 01:56:35 <cmonex> in the right direction? what is "the right direction"? just curious what you mean.
Nov 04 01:56:43 <Chainfire> ill make it into a socks ;)
Nov 04 01:56:49 <Chainfire> soon as i get my device.
Nov 04 01:57:03 <Chainfire> myeah im curious about your "right direction" as well
Nov 04 01:57:11 <cmonex> to me so far it looks like N810 is more in the right direction...
Nov 04 01:57:20 <Gary|thinkpad> cmonex: Moving away from closed proprietary software.
Nov 04 01:57:25 <cmonex> nice 800x480 screen, you can use ported C linux apps easily...
Nov 04 01:57:36 <cmonex> (no phone, nokia is working on that)
Nov 04 01:57:38 <Gary|thinkpad> It's not as huge as I expected it would be.... and yeah I'm a bit pissed off about some of the stuff you can't do
Nov 04 01:57:42 <Chainfire> moving away from closed apps... to a closed platform?
Nov 04 01:57:51 <cmonex> and..yeah N810 runs linux too, but a lot more open
Nov 04 01:57:53 <cmonex> =)
Nov 04 01:58:18 <Chainfire> what use is being able to fix the source if you cant run it
Nov 04 01:58:25 <Gary|thinkpad> Anyway, I was looking forward to cracking some java apps :(. now I dunno what to do.
Nov 04 01:58:36 <cmonex> that's correct Chainfire: you can't flash your own update
Nov 04 01:58:59 <cmonex> wonder if that was tmobile's decision
Nov 04 01:59:08 <Gary|thinkpad> probably
Nov 04 01:59:33 <Gary|thinkpad> Hmm
Nov 04 01:59:47 <Gary|thinkpad> I bet that's why you can't install apps to the SD card, actually.
Nov 04 01:59:52 <cmonex> you can't?
Nov 04 01:59:55 <Gary|thinkpad> nope
Nov 04 01:59:58 <cmonex> I would have hoped they'd solve that
Nov 04 02:00:03 <cmonex> same problem on N810, without big hacks you can't
Nov 04 02:00:34 <Chainfire> so far for the right direction :)
Nov 04 02:00:36 <Gary|thinkpad> well, they'd have to do some extra work to UMS to stop it from reading that directory, I dunno how you'd get windows to write to it without overwriting an area it doesn't know exists
Nov 04 02:00:37 <Gary|thinkpad> etc
Nov 04 02:00:58 <Gary|thinkpad> It still is :P
Nov 04 02:01:33 <Disconnect> don't screw with ums, just use a userspace filesystem or (better) a loopback device
Nov 04 02:01:37 <Gary|thinkpad> And they have a good reason for that of course. my main reason for wanting access to /data/app is to crack Fire Wallet
Nov 04 02:02:05 <Gary|thinkpad> It's a useful program, but fuck if it's worth money.
Nov 04 02:02:14 <cmonex> heh not even 5 usd?
Nov 04 02:02:20 <cmonex> (I have no idea how much it costs, btw)
Nov 04 02:02:21 <ttuttle> Gary|thinkpad: How are they doing billing?
Nov 04 02:02:28 <Gary|thinkpad> ttuttle: No idea.
Nov 04 02:02:45 <Gary|thinkpad> cmonex: Moneys pretty tight D:.
Nov 04 02:02:59 <Gary|thinkpad> and even so, beyond the point
Nov 04 02:03:03 <ttuttle> Gary|thinkpad: /me really doesn't like it when people charge for tiny apps.
Nov 04 02:03:10 <Chainfire> a noble effort :/
Nov 04 02:03:10 * Chainfire calls dibs on "I'm rich" for Android.
Nov 04 02:03:16 <ttuttle> Chainfire: heh
Nov 04 02:03:22 <ttuttle> Chainfire: /me hopes someone does that, and Google leaves it up ;-)
Nov 04 02:03:25 <Gary|thinkpad> Thats the main reason, ttuttle.
Nov 04 02:03:33 <ttuttle> Chainfire: Someone should make a whole set of them with different gems for different amounts.
Nov 04 02:03:36 <Gary|thinkpad> FireWallet is useful, but it's like very very little work to make it
Nov 04 02:03:47 <Gary|thinkpad> dgMoney or whatever is almost the same thing but I like firewallets UI better.
Nov 04 02:04:02 <ttuttle> Gary|thinkpad: So make your own.
Nov 04 02:04:13 <Gary|thinkpad> I don't know java, nor do I learn to care :)
Nov 04 02:04:14 <ttuttle> Gary|thinkpad: The best thing to do if you think software is overpriced is don't use it ;-)
Nov 04 02:04:16 <Gary|thinkpad> err
Nov 04 02:04:21 <Gary|thinkpad> do I care to learn heh
Nov 04 02:04:22 <ttuttle> yeah, i know what you meant to say
Nov 04 02:04:23 <ttuttle> heh
Nov 04 02:04:38 <cmonex> Gary|thinkpad did you ever sell your own software?
Nov 04 02:04:49 <Gary|thinkpad> Nope.
Nov 04 02:05:03 <Gary|thinkpad> Most of my work has been GPL'd.
Nov 04 02:05:12 <cmonex> that's nice
Nov 04 02:05:24 <ttuttle> Gary|thinkpad: Good.
Nov 04 02:05:33 <Chainfire> why dont you just go rob a bank while you're at it, then?
Nov 04 02:05:33 * ttuttle is a fan of the "sell the *service* of writing software" model, when it's possible.
Nov 04 02:05:55 <waldo_> wow old video from february 08 shows the g1 http://gizmodo.com/361872/andy-rubin-shows-off-quake-google-maps-street-view-on-android
Nov 04 02:05:59 <ttuttle> Chainfire: ?
Nov 04 02:06:14 <waldo_> where's my quake I wonder
Nov 04 02:06:47 <Gary|thinkpad> Chainfire: weren't you the one whining about not having root access for no reason :P ?
Nov 04 02:07:45 * unix_infidel wonders what it takes to be a creater vs a founer.
Nov 04 02:07:47 <unix_infidel> founder*
Nov 04 02:07:52 <unix_infidel> creator*
Nov 04 02:07:57 <cmonex> weird question (=P
Nov 04 02:07:59 <unix_infidel> fail...
Nov 04 02:10:32 <unix_infidel> cmonex: heh, well it's a valid question, a creator has done at least some engineering work (design, development, etc)
Nov 04 02:11:00 <cmonex> yeah, and why is this a question?
Nov 04 02:11:00 <unix_infidel> a founder can be any number of things, "head honcho" is along those same lines.
Nov 04 02:11:20 <unix_infidel> cmonex: BBC called andy the "creator" of android.
Nov 04 02:13:29 <Chainfire> got lonely there for a sec :)
Nov 04 02:13:39 <michaelrnovak> hiccup
Nov 04 02:13:42 <cmonex> heh
Nov 04 02:13:57 <cmonex> <unix_infidel> cmonex: BBC called andy the "creator" of android.
Nov 04 02:14:02 <cmonex> do you disagree? =P
Nov 04 02:14:34 <cbeust_> It's accurate
Nov 04 02:17:53 <unix_infidel> cmonex: no, I dont disagree. just wondering what qualifies a founder vs a creator.
Nov 04 02:20:26 <BHSPitMonkey> I created Android.  Stupid.
Nov 04 02:20:43 <cmonex> well, if it was his idea..
Nov 04 02:23:40 <unix_infidel> cmonex: my point exactly ideas have a quality of being creative, they dont create.
Nov 04 02:24:31 <cmonex> hmm, yeah
Nov 04 02:24:45 <tmccrary> ideas mean exactly jack
Nov 04 02:25:57 <unix_infidel> cmonex: i'm not knocking andy, i'm just trying to figure out if i'm disillusioned ;-)
Nov 04 02:26:44 <cmonex> heheh :P
Nov 04 02:29:41 <cmonex> you got a g1 btw? unix_infidel
Nov 04 02:43:21 <nidd> 7
Nov 04 02:50:29 <ionstorm> where is a good place where ppl share code/develop new droid apps
Nov 04 02:50:58 <jasta> hmm, is there some way to get your notification or detect if it had been cleared?
Nov 04 02:51:21 <jasta> ionstorm: here and the android developers group.
Nov 04 02:52:18 <romainguy___> jasta: nope
Nov 04 02:52:41 <jasta> romainguy___: hmm, well, how am i supposed to report how many new e-mails the user has?
Nov 04 02:53:01 <romainguy___> just post a notification with the same id?
Nov 04 02:53:16 <jasta> but how do i know how many new e-mails they had last time i got new messages?
Nov 04 02:53:42 <romainguy___> up to you
Nov 04 02:54:20 <romainguy___> Gmail just tells you how many unread messages sit in your inbox
Nov 04 02:57:26 <jasta> romainguy___: hmm.  that'll work i guess.
Nov 04 02:57:53 <romainguy___> btw, if you implement several features/bugs, you should create several patches
Nov 04 02:59:36 <jasta> of course, i ignored your advice to the contrary earlier
Nov 04 02:59:55 <romainguy___> no, I said before that one big patch was okay
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Nov 04 02:59:57 2008