**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 24 02:59:56 2008 Jun 24 17:03:30 hello Jun 24 17:03:33 anybody awake? Jun 24 17:03:44 trying to insatl abuild a package I built Jun 24 17:03:55 trying to install apackage I built Jun 24 17:03:59 but: Jun 24 17:04:01 Package flite md5sum mismatch Jun 24 17:04:04 says ipkg Jun 24 17:04:12 how do I force installation? Jun 24 20:04:03 "The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle." Jun 24 20:09:15 So, here I am again, trying to work out how to install linux on my Zaurus Sl-C3200, without network connectivity. So far, I have discovered that APT's 'apt-get' command might be able to find stuff placed on the SD card. I've seen documentation/notes about apt-setup that seems to suggest that it can set things up fairly painlessly using a text-menu interface. Jun 24 20:12:57 http://www.debianadmin.com/adding-source-lists-using-apt-setup.html :--> The first screen is "Choose your access method" - choose from 1) cdrom 2) http 3) ftp 4) filesystem 5) edit sources list by hand Jun 24 20:13:32 Now presumably I want to choose "filesystem" Jun 24 20:15:35 Now come on you Linux mavens. I need some help from you Linux gurus. AM I BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE? Jun 24 20:16:05 filesystem is what you want for local files Jun 24 20:18:26 Sketch! Oh saints be praised! I have not got access to Linux right now. I'm working "in the dark". What exactly is APT going to look for on my SD card? Whatdo I have to placedown there? Jun 24 20:18:51 Debian Linux Jun 24 20:20:34 apt is going to look for an apt repository Jun 24 20:20:55 i would assume anyway, since i have never tried it Jun 24 20:21:02 which you are probably going to have a hard time building without a working debian system Jun 24 20:21:40 i think a working network connection is pretty much a requirement for installing debian, unless you want to jump through a lot of hoops Jun 24 20:23:38 I have to go, unfortunately, through hoops of fire. Like Timmy's "Gobbles". Jun 24 20:25:29 So now I have to find out what an APT repository has to be. God I love Linux. Four and a half billion years of evolution and... this. Jun 24 20:26:40 you need to download all of the packages, put them in a dir, and then run an app on the dir which looks at all of the packages and builds the metadata apt needs Jun 24 20:26:48 i think said program may be written in perl Jun 24 20:29:31 http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/repository-howto/repository-howto.en.html :--> Oh beJezuz. Now, if I had a CD of Debian, I could copy something from the CD onto an SD card. Jun 24 20:31:40 "Introduction: A Debian repository is a set of Debian packages organized in a special directory tree which also contains a few additional files containing indexes and checksums of the packages. If a user adds a repository to his /etc/apt/sources.list file, he can easily view and install all the packages available in it just like the packages contained in Debian. A repository can be both online and offline (for example on a CD-ROM), althou Jun 24 20:31:40 the former is the more common case. This document explains how Debian repositories work, how to create them, and how to add them to the sources.list correctly." Jun 24 20:32:42 Checksums?? Why God Why?! Jun 24 20:37:02 I downloaded "zaurus-debian-big-v1.0.tgz" (something like 89 megabytes). What the hell is it if not a debian repository? Jun 24 20:40:03 probably the base system Jun 24 20:40:21 the general debian net install method is install the base system, then use apt to install the rest over the network Jun 24 20:40:29 (the base system is typically just a tarball) Jun 24 20:40:54 at least, that was how i did it when i insatlled debian on a cd-less laptop several years ago Jun 24 20:41:01 What typically is in a "base system"? Jun 24 20:41:09 but knowing debian, it hasn't changed much Jun 24 20:41:25 not much ;) Jun 24 20:41:30 enough to boot the system basically Jun 24 20:41:34 But like what? Jun 24 20:41:48 Has it a graphical system? Jun 24 20:42:31 nope Jun 24 20:42:36 (Long delay... must mean "no".) Jun 24 20:43:00 kernel, modules, glibc and other core system libraries, a few text mode utilities like ls and such Jun 24 20:43:08 and dpkg/apt Jun 24 20:43:15 not much else Jun 24 20:45:19 Hey, is there any japanese handwriting recognition support for angstrom? Jun 24 20:47:01 So how many mega bytes of "graphical OS" would there be? (Niklaus Wirth's entire Oberon system "core" is less than a megabyte.) lulin, yes I know so. Jun 24 20:47:56 thanks! its it any good? or should i stay with the original sharp rom for my zaurus? Jun 24 20:49:05 I heard that the Sharp Japanese recognition software is very good, and the Linux stuff is not. Jun 24 20:50:39 ok, thank you Jun 24 20:52:05 People I think, stay with the Sharp Linux OS for that reason. But you should search around on the web and confirm this. I know there is a big Linux/Free software interest in Japan and China, and they get things done. Si monumentum requiris, circumspice. Jun 24 20:56:11 (I'm saying the Far East is full of energy today, and things are changing fast. I think good linux handwriting recognition for chinese/japanese scripts are being written as we speak. The Chinese "sphere of influence") Jun 24 20:57:37 yes, that would be great. the "kanjipad"-application that i uses some time ago under linux was not very good. I recently tried a newer one , "tomoe", which is somewhat okay, but also not that great. Jun 24 20:59:24 Sketch: so if I got Debian on CD, this would solve a lot of problems? (I'm in the middle of the North York Moors, 3 miles from the nearest road.) Jun 24 20:59:38 What is the Sharp version called? Jun 24 21:00:00 there isn't a zaurus-specific one Jun 24 21:00:17 and there are two different ones that will run on the zaurus Jun 24 21:00:18 arm and armel Jun 24 21:00:48 i am not sure there is a cd of the arm(el) version of debian, since most arm systems don't have cdroms Jun 24 21:01:07 I'm confused. When you say "one", what is that? Jun 24 21:01:31 two different versions of debian Jun 24 21:01:57 arm (OABI) and armel (EABI) are two different architectures, as far as debian is concerned Jun 24 21:03:47 Old Application Binary Interface and E(extensible?) Application Binary Interface. Why is it "armel" with "-el"? Any reason? Jun 24 21:04:22 dunno Jun 24 21:04:43 lulin: What is the Sharp version of the Japanese recognition software called? Jun 24 21:04:44 http://wiki.debian.org/ArmEabiPort Jun 24 21:05:50 ah, apparently it's arm eabi littleendian Jun 24 21:06:02 its called CRIM, or libcrim, but it seems to be closed source Jun 24 21:07:20 _Embedded_ Application Binary Interface. Yippee! And to think they landed on the moon with 10 kilobytes of core store. Jun 24 21:09:08 but they did not need to play doom while flying ;-) Jun 24 21:09:59 lulin, if you don't "program around" with the Zaurus, your far better off with the Sharp system. But I would not be surprised to find that in a year from now there is good Japanese recognition for Linux. Jun 24 21:10:48 if you are happy with the sharp rom, there is probably little reason to change Jun 24 21:14:25 (Good meaning Free Software.) What is wrong with the existing 'kanjipad' and 'tomoe'? Jun 24 21:15:10 I love to hear horror stories about software. Spill the beans lulin. Jun 24 21:15:58 they just don't recognize the kanji i draw very well Jun 24 21:16:02 could be me, of course Jun 24 21:16:53 but even very simple characters are often not recognized Jun 24 21:20:52 It's not you. Is it put out by a University project (guessing no)? Is it put out by an enthusiastic 13-year old? (probably) Do you know? What's your feelng? Jun 24 21:22:18 Sketch: can you point me to a debian repository please? Jun 24 21:30:45 lulin: are you there? Jun 24 21:35:01 * "Distel": Distributed Emacs Lisp. * "Armel": ARM, Endian Little? * "Sahel": The Sahel or Sahel Belt (from Arabic ????, sahil, shore, border or coast of the Sahara desert) is a semi-arid tropical savanna region in Africa, which forms the transition between the Sahara desert to the north and the more fertile region to the south, known as "the Sudan" (not to be confused with the country of the same name). Jun 24 21:36:24 lulin, don't tell me that "you're an enthusiastic 13-year old"! Have I offended thee? Jun 24 21:38:47 Aha. Sketch said "ah, apparently it's ARM Eabi Little-endian". Ah... the giants. Jun 24 21:39:48 no, have been looking at some websites about kanji recognition Jun 24 21:40:05 it seem the tomoe-project is really active, they just made a new release today Jun 24 21:40:05 Any joy? Jun 24 21:40:32 Who's behind it? Point me. Jun 24 21:41:36 Tom Open Embedded, I guess. Tomasaka's Optical... Miasma... Jun 24 21:42:10 http://tomoe.sourceforge.jp/ Jun 24 21:42:24 they seem to have a google summer of code project going... Jun 24 21:45:45 "A tomoe or tomoye (archaic) (?) is a Japanese abstract shape (i.e. a swirl) that resembles a comma or the usual form of magatama. It is a common design element in Japanese family emblems (?? kamon?) and corporate logos, particularly in triplicate whorls known as mitsu tomoe. One mitsu tomoe variant, the Hidari Gomon, is the traditional symbol of Okinawa. The tomoe is very similar in design to the Korean sam-taegeuk. On the opposite side o Jun 24 21:45:45 Eurasia, the Basque lauburu and some forms of the Celtic spiral triskele resemble small groups of tomoe." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoe) Jun 24 21:48:40 "Tomoe - Tegaki Online MOji recognition Engine - is a software which provides a handwriting recognition engine and its user interface on open source desktop environment. Here, "Tegaki" means "Handwriting" and "Moji" means "Letter" in Japanese. Currently it supports only Japanese, but we are planning to support also other languages such as Chinese." (http://tomoe.sourceforge.jp/cgi-bin/en/blog/index.rb) Jun 24 21:52:50 http://www.mblondel.org/journal/2008/05/25/first-hmm-experiment/ <-- this looks interesting Jun 24 21:53:15 WORKING... Jun 24 21:57:17 lulin, this is a hard problem. And full of creative possibilities. How is it to use CRIM? What are it's problems? and good points. Jun 24 21:59:01 good points: it actually recognizes the characters. bad points: it's closed source... Jun 24 22:02:59 All the thousands of universities and nothing to show for them these days. The best hope is in China and Japan. I have yet to read Spengler's "The Decline of the West". It's sitting on my shelf. But I'm reading "The Complete History of China" by J.A.G. Roberts right now (1996). It is wonderfully written. Jun 24 22:04:16 what is the package name for the kernel joystick modules? Jun 24 22:08:57 lulin, how are you learning Japanese? wirelessdreamer, expand your question. (Verbiate) Jun 24 22:10:50 i'm studying it at a university. I can't understand why there is no good free kanji recognition software... well, maybe i should work on it ;-) Jun 24 22:12:40 A__A: modprobe joydev doesn't work because there is no joydev module, what package does joydev.ko live in? Jun 24 22:16:48 wirelessdreamer: you're asking *me*?? What's a "module"? But seriously, I say, search for "joydev.ko" on web and you'll likely find out. Jun 24 22:17:22 its a kernel module, it should be in the feed or the feed is broken Jun 24 22:17:53 angstrom builds the feed and kernel, which means they build the module Jun 24 22:17:59 a random joydev.ko would be useless Jun 24 22:18:32 lulin: Pattern recognition is a very deep and interesting problem. Studying what at Uni? Japanese language? Jun 24 22:19:27 Have you tried #oe channel? (actually I think that's "the enemy", maybe, OpenZaurus.) Jun 24 22:19:29 japanese language, classical japanese and computer science Jun 24 22:21:05 It's f*cking difficult deep problem, recognition. I just bought Hiroshige's 100 views of Edo, reproduction. Georgeous. Jun 24 22:22:09 What year are you in? How many do you have to study? Where? Jun 24 22:24:10 i'm in my third year, tuebingen university, germany. I do more or less only study/translate classical japanese all week right now, but i think i will try to go to some pattern recognition related courses next year... Jun 24 22:28:50 Are you sure you know what you're letting yourslelf in for? It's much more than "computer science". It's at the basis of living systems. It's trees growing in Spring. Sunflowers finding the sun. The Samurai who knows not to enter the house and get knocked on the head in "The Seven Samurai". Neural networks are a tiny start. It's a huge problem. Bigger is Electricity! Jun 24 22:32:16 (But in the universities I know, in England, it will mean staid tramlined courses, as boring as double entry bookkeeping, giving no hint of the depths and scope of the problem.) But Germany may still be a good place yet. Jun 24 22:35:39 Stick with the Sharp Linux "SL-" distro for the time being. I have a feeling I have to, because I do not have broadband which every installation seems to require. Can you spend the next year in Japan?? Jun 24 22:36:48 i spent the last year in japan, but i hope i can go again in 2 years or so. i want to go back to kyoto... Jun 24 22:39:16 Did you hear about Trey Parker and Matt Stone doing "Giant Monsters Attack Japan" there? Jun 24 22:40:38 ? whats that? Jun 24 22:43:25 South Park's Parker and Stone, they were going to make a film in Japan last year, "Giant Monsters Attack Japan" featuring Rubber Suit technology. I think partly it was to get away from Hollywood and the fighting going on their about creative rights in the digital age. Jun 24 22:43:51 I'm not sure it's still not going on as a project. Jun 24 22:44:22 But they say absolutely nothing to anyone about it, and I don't blame them. Jun 24 22:45:41 Are you German? Jun 24 22:46:12 yeah, i am Jun 24 22:46:16 (Shh, don't mention the wall...) Jun 24 22:47:15 How is Tubingen university? Your teachers, the course? Jun 24 22:48:20 "Das Schönste, was wir erleben können, ist das Geheimnisvolle. Es ist das Grundgefühl, das an der Wiege von wahrer Kunst und Wissenschaft steht. Wer es nicht kennt uns sich nicht mehr wundern, nicht mehr staunen kann, der ist sozusagen tot und sein Auge erloschen." Said by whom, lulin? Jun 24 22:49:30 no idea, but i bet google knows ;-) Jun 24 22:50:23 my teachers are really good, but i tend to visit the unpopular courses like classical japanese or functional programming, so there are not that many students per course. makes learning so much easier. Jun 24 22:50:24 Einstein in "Mein Weltbild", published by Querido Verlag, Amsterdam, 1933 Jun 24 22:51:39 Functional programming. Is that easy to understand? Jun 24 22:53:26 depends. if it's the first time you do programming, it's easy. if you are already spoiled by imperative programming languages like c, it may be hard at first Jun 24 22:54:26 What language did you learn on? Jun 24 22:56:28 i started with basic, back in the day... well, nobody told me there were functional programming languages back then ;-) Jun 24 22:56:55 What Functional language did you learn on? Jun 24 22:57:55 scheme. it's a lisp dialect. Jun 24 22:59:26 I saw Miranda code many moons ago, and it seemed incredibly elegant. Mind bogglingly elegant. Do you recommend Scheme? Jun 24 23:00:46 i do. i have the feeling that, when tackling the same problem, i usually need only half the time or less if i do it in scheme than i'd need if i did it in java or something Jun 24 23:01:18 Is it full of (((((brackets)))))) like Lisp?! Jun 24 23:03:56 (it (is)) Jun 24 23:04:25 I am going to sleep, lulin. Keep your Sharp distro intact and finish your course. The headaches of configuring Linux.... Jesus! If you REALLY want to do Japanese on a computer, you should get a Mac Laptop. My wife uses hers for Chinese and loves it. ...So easy... Jun 24 23:05:26 yeah, i know, i had one until it broke... good night Jun 24 23:05:45 I wanted to install debian on my Zaurus to study erlang, but, fuck it, I'm just going to use it as a palm top address book/notepad and stick to the Mac, Goodnight. Jun 24 23:06:10 And fuck Linux, right in the ear! **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jun 25 02:59:57 2008