**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 29 02:59:59 2012 Nov 29 02:59:59 mru it's bed time, go Nov 29 03:00:06 I'm trying to help you Nov 29 03:00:31 so now tell me what does the expression "!x" mean? Nov 29 03:01:01 negation Nov 29 03:01:16 specifically, logical negation Nov 29 03:01:28 so what does "!(!x)" mean? Nov 29 03:01:55 yes and !!x its double logical negation Nov 29 03:02:06 exactly Nov 29 03:02:17 damn im gud Nov 29 03:02:25 merci mru Nov 29 03:02:41 now consider values for x of 0, 1, and 2 Nov 29 03:03:22 what about 3? ;) Nov 29 03:03:31 whut? Nov 29 03:03:41 ds2: alright for 3, but not 4 Nov 29 03:03:41 x=0 its 1 Nov 29 03:03:44 and certainly not 5 Nov 29 03:04:04 tholm: is it? Nov 29 03:04:05 no more fingers please!!! Nov 29 03:04:50 if x=0; it's !(!x)=0 Nov 29 03:05:19 or am i wrong? Nov 29 03:05:24 that's correct Nov 29 03:06:51 k_tmp->cs_change= !!u_tmp->cs_change no make sense Nov 29 03:07:00 think more Nov 29 03:07:10 do what I said Nov 29 03:07:22 thinking... Nov 29 03:07:22 what is the value of !!x for x = 0, 1, 2? Nov 29 03:26:46 what did i walk into? Nov 29 03:28:05 it's not C# class Nov 29 03:36:02 i thought this was Trolling 101 Nov 29 03:36:05 wrong room Nov 29 04:04:39 mru: so it made me wonder how many ! you can use..... Nov 29 04:04:45 mru: any idea? Nov 29 04:07:29 <_av500_> !!!!!!!!! Nov 29 04:10:25 _av500_: well, for gcc, on my ubuntu box, it's somewhere between 32000 and 33000 !'s Nov 29 04:10:33 until an ICE :-D Nov 29 04:11:39 I wonder if it's exactly 32768.... Nov 29 04:13:03 hmm, not exactly... probably has to do with the number of tokens total. Nov 29 04:22:34 actually, it's pretty nasty... not the same number every time 32700 seems to compile every time. Nov 29 04:23:15 it dies sometimes shortly above that Nov 29 04:23:25 * alan_o needs a life Nov 29 04:24:41 actually, the limit seems per-expression Nov 29 04:25:24 * alan_o is going to try to get code with double-bitwise-negation into the kernel. Nov 29 07:39:47 greetings earthlings, i come in peace Nov 29 07:57:06 KotH: allah akbar to you as well Nov 29 07:57:38 * dm8tbr demands an earthshattering kaboom! there was supposed to be a kaboom! Nov 29 07:58:42 dm8tbr: i'm sorry i could buy a Q-36 on short notice Nov 29 07:58:58 would a waistband of firecrackers do? Nov 29 08:02:53 :þ Nov 29 08:03:04 howdy Nov 29 08:13:21 i swear this will be fun to explain to future employers why i'm on the do not fly list... "ah yeah i was trolling in irc...what is trolling...?..." :) Nov 29 08:14:41 mranostay: it's a linkedin skill, no? Nov 29 08:14:47 * koen is waiting for endorsements Nov 29 08:15:09 more like a gamification of real life Nov 29 08:15:22 "Does mranostay know about 'Trolling'?" Nov 29 08:15:39 tomorrow i will be searching for Crofton's Tizen sticker on Castro Nov 29 08:15:47 MV not SF for the record Nov 29 08:15:50 :) Nov 29 08:18:08 mranostay: lol Nov 29 08:18:29 mranostay: if you get onto the no fly list for trolling on irc, then your security system is totally fucke Nov 29 08:18:41 mranostay: oh..wait.. your security system IS totally fucked Nov 29 08:18:52 :-) Nov 29 08:18:58 is it omap based? Nov 29 08:19:13 walking dead based Nov 29 08:21:43 omap is totally fucked and totally dead Nov 29 08:22:46 gm Nov 29 08:24:08 moin woglinde Nov 29 08:24:26 the walking dead Nov 29 08:24:28 yes Nov 29 08:26:16 koen: ooh, you actually added that skill! av500 still didn't... I tried to manually add an 'trolling' endorsement to him, but that didn't work. Nov 29 08:27:06 dm8tbr: i did endorse me ***** :) Nov 29 08:30:12 soon trolling will be trending on linkedin! Nov 29 09:02:51 dm8tbr: i find this endorsement stuff silly Nov 29 09:13:10 mranostay: linkedin is silly Nov 29 09:13:24 mranostay: but if you take it seriously, then the endorsment is the next logical step Nov 29 09:13:32 * dm8tbr endorses KotH for silly-walks Nov 29 09:13:45 mranostay: otherwise, anyone can write anything in there, and you have no idea whether it's true or not Nov 29 09:14:21 mranostay: on the other hand, we are talking about the internets, where men are real men, women are also men, and children are fbi agents Nov 29 10:07:24 KotH: men are dogs Nov 29 10:17:08 av500, women are cats? Nov 29 10:18:02 children are mice? Nov 29 10:21:24 dogs are llamas? Nov 29 10:22:18 KotH: wrt the interwebs Nov 29 10:22:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you're_a_dog Nov 29 10:25:22 jkridner: ping about bonescript Nov 29 10:26:12 bonescript cannot pings you? Nov 29 10:38:08 it probably can Nov 29 10:50:48 discuss: http://dx.com/p/prime-100w-7000lm-led-emitter-metal-plate-warm-white-42807 Nov 29 11:19:31 av500: wtf? Nov 29 11:20:03 a night light Nov 29 11:20:24 putting that on my bike Nov 29 11:23:07 burning your way trough the forest? Nov 29 11:23:33 leaving molten steel behind my on the streets Nov 29 11:23:36 you have a 36v lead battery on your bike? Nov 29 11:23:46 not yet Nov 29 11:24:03 you dont need 36v batteries Nov 29 11:24:23 that too Nov 29 11:31:50 whoa, thats 7x as bright as my bike light :-D Nov 29 11:34:02 :) Nov 29 11:35:51 * KotH hates the guys with 30W+ helmet lamps Nov 29 11:36:06 after they've passed you, you're blind for a couple of seconds Nov 29 11:36:23 one day, i'll take a 100W flash light with me and blind those guys as well Nov 29 11:38:54 KotH: then they will bring 1000W to counteract Nov 29 11:38:58 it will never end Nov 29 11:39:04 in the end, everybody loses Nov 29 11:39:24 nope Nov 29 11:39:43 if enough people walk with 1000W lamps, the whole path will be well light Nov 29 11:39:54 lit? Nov 29 11:41:03 lit Nov 29 11:41:21 yes, but people will trip over extension cords and die Nov 29 11:41:28 collateral damage... Nov 29 11:50:11 i dont mind stupid people dying Nov 29 11:50:21 would clean up the gene pool Nov 29 13:18:11 koen: hi there! About new-Narcissus, still interested in getting config for the old Zauruses? Nov 29 13:21:44 ha, zaurus Nov 29 13:30:44 ant_work: yes Nov 29 13:33:53 uuuh, a troll request on linked in :D Nov 29 13:34:14 dm8tbr: hehe Nov 29 13:34:34 mru: what, can't endorse you for trolling? ;( Nov 29 13:34:56 "This is not a standardized skill or area of expertise. Search below for skills you have or are interested in." Nov 29 13:35:10 so how did Crofton manage it? Nov 29 13:35:16 and mranostay Nov 29 13:35:50 the trolled linkedin Nov 29 13:35:52 they Nov 29 13:35:59 * mru tries to add it manually Nov 29 13:36:18 it shows on the list for me now Nov 29 13:36:58 endorsed Nov 29 13:37:17 +1 Nov 29 13:37:52 dm8tbr: excel? Nov 29 13:37:53 lol Nov 29 13:38:00 can I put paint.exe? Nov 29 13:38:55 Does Måns have these skills or expertise? Nov 29 13:39:03 hmm Nov 29 13:39:11 I wont endorse him for unicode Nov 29 13:39:24 hehe Nov 29 13:39:36 yo prpplague Nov 29 13:39:39 what's the unicode codepoint for a troll? Nov 29 13:39:43 they have snowman... Nov 29 13:40:14 XorA|gone: ho ho and a cup of coffee Nov 29 13:41:36 av500: clearcase? surely you are trolling... Nov 29 13:42:31 hehe Nov 29 13:42:47 mru: clearcase? Nov 29 13:43:08 prpplague: I prefer tea normally :-D Nov 29 13:43:30 XorA|gone: with rum? Nov 29 13:43:42 rum with tea flavor Nov 29 13:43:47 prpplague: makes a good cure for the cold :-D Nov 29 13:43:58 hehe Nov 29 13:44:08 * prpplague needs to try that as he has a cold now Nov 29 13:44:31 too much stress and crazy texas weather leads to a fall cold Nov 29 13:45:00 av500: you know what I'm talking about Nov 29 13:48:58 who ever thought of this is a freakin genius! http://hackaday.com/2012/11/27/injecting-power-into-a-wifi-dongle-for-the-raspberry-pi/ Nov 29 13:49:36 prpplague: my fave for a cold is couple of table spoons of lemon, table spoon of honey, couple ounces spiced rum, boiling water Nov 29 13:49:48 prpplague: that will blow the sinuses open Nov 29 13:49:59 lemon juice that is Nov 29 13:50:19 XorA|gone: sounds like what i drink before the pandaboard team meetings on tuesdays.... Nov 29 13:50:39 prpplague: I wonder if that thing is reverse-powering the rpi too Nov 29 13:50:59 XorA|gone: I prefer not getting the cold in the first place Nov 29 13:51:29 mru: i didn't look at it too closely, but i didn't see any mention of removing the connection of the +5v rail Nov 29 13:51:44 exactly Nov 29 13:52:13 XorA|gone: pretty close to a rum punch then Nov 29 13:53:21 koen: its the recipe for actual Grog :-) Nov 29 13:53:30 koen: but made with hot water Nov 29 14:00:58 prpplague: back to life? Nov 29 14:37:39 gm all Nov 29 14:37:57 koen: yt? I'd like to chat about the best way to bundle the weatherstation demo. Nov 29 14:39:33 jkridner: that's why I pinged you earlier :) Nov 29 14:39:42 I missed the ping. Nov 29 14:40:17 It isn't quite becoming clear to me where bone101 ends and other examples begin... Nov 29 14:40:34 I think there is a certain service element that should be available from bonescript all of the time. Nov 29 14:41:05 I think there is a way to create examples that are easier to learn and experiment within the browser. Nov 29 14:41:33 I added readTextFile and writeTextFile to the browser today and it makes the browser side code easier to write... Nov 29 14:41:52 now, there is very little reason to run things on the server side if you can use client.js Nov 29 14:42:03 but, client.js isn't bundled well at all... Nov 29 14:42:07 it is wrapped up on bone101. Nov 29 14:42:49 what I'm working towards is where you can use something like http://beagleboard.org/static/bonescript/bone101/demo_weatherstation.html and simply need to specify where your local board is. Nov 29 14:43:03 or have it auto-discover if that is possible. Nov 29 14:43:24 right now, client.js has a bug in the path to the scripts, so you won't see any of the .js files load. Nov 29 14:43:33 but it works fine on Beagle. Nov 29 14:43:57 koen: so, are you busy now and were only available earlier? Nov 29 14:44:24 short answer: yes Nov 29 14:44:46 the longer answer involves running out of space on multiple machines and crashing my main workstation a few minutes ago Nov 29 14:44:48 also, there is some width adjusting code in the weatherstation demo that I don't quite follow. Nov 29 14:45:03 k. Nov 29 14:45:15 hi jkridner Nov 29 14:45:21 hi panto Nov 29 14:45:53 jkridner: it tries to keep all widgets in the view, but it's butt ugly and flaky code Nov 29 14:47:37 what confused me about it was looking at the height to determine the width. Nov 29 14:48:58 I think you left a multiplication out of your comparison Nov 29 14:50:28 where should the lux meter go? to the right? Nov 29 14:52:53 yeag Nov 29 14:52:59 yeah* Nov 29 14:53:11 may I fix and send a patch? Nov 29 14:53:30 sure Nov 29 14:53:41 patches are unwelcome Nov 29 14:54:14 koen, thx for sharing the rt pwr seq thread, btw ;) Nov 29 14:54:48 mdp: can DT help there? Nov 29 15:03:16 alan_o: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20536201 Nov 29 15:03:23 "Not a single murder, shooting, stabbing or other incident of violent crime was reported for a whole day." Nov 29 15:03:42 \o/ Nov 29 15:03:49 in NYC Nov 29 15:04:41 wonders never cease. Nov 29 15:04:47 sounds like a boring place Nov 29 15:05:06 "it won't last" (in the manner of Marvin) Nov 29 15:08:03 mru: nice! Nov 29 15:23:50 koen: https://github.com/jadonk/bonescript/commit/2595d1b932ede0edb5cbd6e46fb3c9a87c69ca23 Nov 29 15:23:54 I think this resizing works well... Nov 29 15:24:07 cuts the header off on short screens Nov 29 15:24:24 too difficult to try to figure out the header height. Nov 29 18:04:20 hey friends, trolls and whatever else Nov 29 18:04:32 yo mranostay Nov 29 18:06:27 mranostay: and unemployed omap people Nov 29 18:06:32 hey hey mranostay: Nov 29 18:08:17 so all of CA OMAP peoplez i've heard Nov 29 18:09:36 prpplague: need a job? you can take mine... Nov 29 18:09:45 KotH, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/switzerland/9708726/Zurich-to-open-drive-in-sex-boxes.html Nov 29 18:09:57 i am not clicking that Nov 29 18:10:08 mru: and do what with it? Nov 29 18:10:15 koen: ping Nov 29 18:10:21 pong Nov 29 18:10:25 ping Nov 29 18:10:32 pong Nov 29 18:10:38 ping Nov 29 18:10:41 mranostay: I clikced it for you Nov 29 18:10:51 Zurich council has approved a plan to build the boxes, which will, it hopes, provide a discreet location for prostitutes and their clients to conduct business when they open in August next year. Nov 29 18:11:14 er that is legal in Switzerland? Nov 29 18:11:28 mranostay: most things are legal in switzerland Nov 29 18:11:40 * mranostay books tickets Nov 29 18:12:10 * mranostay couchsurfs at KotH's Nov 29 18:12:19 but even where illegal, prostitution still exists Nov 29 18:12:52 you mean outlawing something doesn't stop people from doing it? Nov 29 18:12:52 and I can see why the authorities would want to keep it off the streets Nov 29 18:13:54 damn authorities always getting in the way of fun Nov 29 18:14:15 sweden has an unusual take on it: _buying_ sex is illegal there Nov 29 18:14:35 of course nobody has ever been convicted Nov 29 18:15:09 sex is an object? Nov 29 18:15:26 it could be seen as a service Nov 29 18:15:42 SAAS? or just SAS? ;) Nov 29 18:16:18 SAAS Nov 29 18:16:27 now even if you were to be caught with your pants down, there's nothing to worry about Nov 29 18:16:35 Crofton: see, we're more modern than any other country :) Nov 29 18:16:37 you just say the money wasn't for the sex Nov 29 18:16:58 "we had sex, then I gave her some money as a gift" Nov 29 18:18:01 dating is the exact opposite Nov 29 18:18:25 mranostay: you don't have sex and you don't give money? Nov 29 18:18:53 that's not the logical opposite Nov 29 18:19:27 the world is getting more insane by the day... my new shaver can make coffee, but comes only with a leaflet. you have to search (non-trivial) and download a 30 pages manual. Nov 29 18:20:02 it's not obvious how to use it? Nov 29 18:20:04 koen: you dont have sex, but give money Nov 29 18:20:25 mru: the obvious use is obvious, but cleaning, maintenance and such isnt Nov 29 18:20:34 mru: especialy as it comes with a complete cleaning unit Nov 29 18:20:35 mru: you mean this? http://www.thelocal.se/44330/20121109/ Nov 29 18:20:55 unfortunately, nobody thought that one might need a charger that is actually smaller than the shaver itself Nov 29 18:21:35 what monster have you bought? Nov 29 18:22:05 Philips SensoTouch 3D RQ1250 Nov 29 18:22:13 (yes, there is a 3D in it's name!) Nov 29 18:23:12 it even has a travel bag, which i probably will never use, because it's a lot larger than the shaver Nov 29 18:23:31 grrrr buildsystem deadlock Nov 29 18:23:33 ...like twice as large Nov 29 18:23:56 mranostay: about couch surfing.. you can do that, but i would demand something in exchange Nov 29 18:26:09 er do i even want to know? Nov 29 18:26:18 probably not Nov 29 18:28:15 KotH: would a police report be involved? Nov 29 18:28:33 only if you get caught Nov 29 18:29:26 as mru said Nov 29 18:30:34 bank heist? Nov 29 18:30:56 mranostay: easy, just buy him chocolate Nov 29 18:31:07 which by his standards means, its cheaper to get a hotel Nov 29 18:31:44 not a hotel room, a hotel Nov 29 18:31:57 maybe a hostel Nov 29 18:32:06 too hostile Nov 29 18:39:39 mranostay: you wont be able to afford a hostel here in .ch Nov 29 18:39:55 unless you've been a lifelong member of the hostel association Nov 29 18:42:13 affording anything Switzerland seems expensive Nov 29 18:43:31 juup, even dying is quite expensive Nov 29 18:44:05 doesn't that become somebody else's problem? Nov 29 18:44:24 i think it does Nov 29 18:44:34 well, they charge you, even if you are dead Nov 29 18:44:57 KotH: popping up the cost of living calculator it is 25% more expensive in Zurich than SF Nov 29 18:45:06 and then what, sell your body on ebay? Nov 29 18:45:07 so, if you dont have enough money, they look for some guy to cover for you, if there isnt, you'll be dumped into a hole Nov 29 18:45:21 hell i'd go for the hole Nov 29 18:45:26 a hellhole? Nov 29 18:45:34 KotH: and if you do pay? Nov 29 18:45:36 that's turkmenistan Nov 29 18:45:45 mru: burial according to your believes Nov 29 18:45:57 mru: for you, that'd probably mean dumping in a hole ;) Nov 29 18:46:06 see Nov 29 18:46:58 well, you dont believe in any imaginary friend who is going to save your imortal soul Nov 29 18:48:14 my religous beliefs require me to be shot into space Nov 29 18:48:48 mine require me to be transmuted to solid gold and placed on public display in the main square of the city Nov 29 18:48:58 then you'll be cremated, compressed and made into a 1cm^2 pellet.... which will then be shot into space Nov 29 18:49:10 with a railgun? cooool! Nov 29 18:49:31 * mranostay notes this channel is extra random today Nov 29 18:49:45 this is switzerland! we honor the believes of everyone.. and we have the weapon systems to do it too! Nov 29 18:50:13 we're preparing for friday Nov 29 18:50:45 .oO(friday, friday, we shoot your remains into space on friiiiidaaay) Nov 29 18:52:08 KotH: they let you have an assualt weapon? :P Nov 29 18:52:31 mranostay: you missed that discussion? (hint: yes) Nov 29 18:53:05 mranostay: full automatic SIG 550, military issue Nov 29 18:53:18 with those 20 rounds in a seal tin that better have damn good reason to open? :) Nov 29 18:53:27 *sealed Nov 29 18:53:33 mranostay: and if i wish i can keep it after my service, for a mere 200 bucks Nov 29 18:53:51 mranostay: the tin contained 50 rounds, but we had to give it back a couple of years ago Nov 29 18:54:09 mranostay: but getting ammo is not a problem: just walk into the next weapons store and buy some Nov 29 18:54:10 are you techically not allowed to keep ammo at home? Nov 29 18:54:23 i know people do and it isn't really enforced Nov 29 18:54:24 i am allowed Nov 29 18:54:43 heck, friend of mine had an mg at home, complete with some belts Nov 29 18:55:01 he had to give it back, though :) Nov 29 18:55:15 mranostay: are you thinking of guns licensed for use only on a firing range? Nov 29 18:55:16 i should have been born in Switzerland :P Nov 29 18:55:28 mru: well not like the UK Nov 29 18:55:36 mranostay: you can still be reborn in switzerland Nov 29 18:55:57 what like the uk? Nov 29 18:55:58 can i forge a birth cert? Nov 29 18:56:06 well, the laws in .ch are getting more strict Nov 29 18:56:17 i'm not allowed anymore to just buy a weapon of the street Nov 29 18:56:19 mranostay: never heard religious nutters talk about being reborn? Nov 29 18:56:24 i have to get a license first Nov 29 18:56:57 mranostay: how old are you? Nov 29 18:57:08 KotH: he's not Nov 29 18:57:31 well, if he is below 18, he has a chance to enter the swiss army still Nov 29 18:57:50 move to switzerland, live at one place for 5 years, apply for citizenship, enter army Nov 29 18:58:01 18 years? Nov 29 18:58:07 actually, the last step is automatic if you are below 23 Nov 29 18:58:26 mru: juup Nov 29 18:58:34 mru: because 18 + 5 = 23 Nov 29 18:58:35 solar years or troll years? Nov 29 18:58:45 hmm.. swiss chocolate years, i guess Nov 29 18:58:50 26 so no dice Nov 29 18:59:07 mranostay: there is still one way: study medicine Nov 29 18:59:11 so two mranostay would be 54 years Nov 29 18:59:16 mranostay: doctors are automatically drafted Nov 29 18:59:23 heh Nov 29 18:59:27 mranostay: even after they've reached age Nov 29 18:59:38 lucky them.. Nov 29 18:59:40 there are not enough military doctors Nov 29 18:59:48 lucky? everyone hates it ^^' Nov 29 18:59:55 Nov 29 19:00:31 i know of one who got drafted at the age of 35 Nov 29 19:00:31 i guess marrying a swiss national is an unlikely option :) Nov 29 19:00:59 mranostay: I suppose they have girls there Nov 29 19:01:13 or do you have a gender preference? Nov 29 19:01:14 everyone who wen to him was like "oh.. you have this horrible cough... this is serious, you cannot do service with such an illness, we have to send you home" Nov 29 19:01:31 and because he was the doctor, nobody could say anything :) Nov 29 19:02:05 fire him for malpractice? Nov 29 19:02:25 the military cannot fire anyone Nov 29 19:02:30 at least not in .ch Nov 29 19:02:43 what do they do with all the guns then? Nov 29 19:02:46 you can be send to jail, but there is no early discharge Nov 29 19:03:10 so send him to jail then Nov 29 19:03:30 heck, we had one who was smuggling weapons (up to full automatic gateling guns). they took his rifle and bayonet, but he had to stay in the army until he finished his days Nov 29 19:04:40 cleaning toilets? Nov 29 19:04:51 no, driving trucks Nov 29 19:04:58 KotH: at the lowest rank possible? Nov 29 19:05:17 trucks loaded with guns? Nov 29 19:05:24 mranostay: no, corporal Nov 29 19:05:37 mranostay: or sergant in your terms, iirc Nov 29 19:05:40 er please tell me he got jail time Nov 29 19:05:54 mru: guns, people, radio, food, you name it Nov 29 19:06:04 mranostay: he didnt.. not enough evidence Nov 29 19:06:54 KotH: how about alcohol? Nov 29 19:07:06 mranostay: and unlike some weird country on the other side of the big pond, we do not shoot people before asking, and dont jail anyone w/o proper evidence Nov 29 19:07:13 what about it? Nov 29 19:07:22 you guys got it? Nov 29 19:07:28 ofc Nov 29 19:07:30 why shouldnt we? Nov 29 19:07:38 who knows just checking :P Nov 29 19:07:40 this is not a muslim country... yet Nov 29 19:07:44 I don't know of any place on earth you can't get alcohol Nov 29 19:07:57 even muslim countries have alcohol Nov 29 19:08:05 low alcoholic stuff (beer, wine,..) is free from 16 on, strong stuff from 18 Nov 29 19:08:16 free booze? Nov 29 19:08:22 damn Nov 29 19:08:26 actually, we could do that... Nov 29 19:08:30 this gets better and better Nov 29 19:08:44 for some weird reason, nobody ever tried to pass a "free booze for everyone" law yet Nov 29 19:09:23 but we are currently discussing a guaranteed minimum wage for everyone, Nov 29 19:09:34 though i doubt it'll pass Nov 29 19:09:42 nobody knows how to finance that Nov 29 19:09:50 print money! Nov 29 19:09:58 so how much you have to make to live comfortable in .ch? Nov 29 19:10:09 mranostay: depends on where you live Nov 29 19:10:23 mranostay: you can survive from 2000chf upwards Nov 29 19:10:29 200k chf per year should do it Nov 29 19:10:31 mranostay: confortable starts from 3000 Nov 29 19:10:54 3000chf a month? Nov 29 19:11:02 mranostay: an EE earns around 6k-10k, software 8-20k Nov 29 19:11:06 yes Nov 29 19:11:07 netto Nov 29 19:11:15 3k chf per month ain't much Nov 29 19:11:22 it isnt Nov 29 19:11:38 but you get easily buy with it, if you dont need a 100m^2 flat Nov 29 19:11:52 and dont live in downtown zürich or geneva Nov 29 19:13:19 KotH: after taxes? Nov 29 19:14:05 before Nov 29 19:14:23 taxes are roughly 10%, less when you are below 5k, more when you are above Nov 29 19:15:23 if you earn 100k/year, brutto, single, no children, you pay somewhere in the region of 8-10k taxes a year Nov 29 19:17:08 as an engineer, i think .ch is one of the better places in europe, to live and work... Nov 29 19:17:20 who's hiring? Nov 29 19:17:33 you dont earn as much as in the uk, but still more than in most other places, taxes are quite low and you have the better weather than in london Nov 29 19:17:48 a lot of companies are hiring Nov 29 19:18:03 there is always a demand for software and ee engineers Nov 29 19:18:09 uhm, nobody I know in the uk is making the kind of money you describe Nov 29 19:18:18 mru: huh? Nov 29 19:18:32 mru: i have a few friends who went to the uk, because they got better money there Nov 29 19:18:52 mru: oh.. the values i gave are all in chf, not gpb Nov 29 19:18:59 mru: factor 2.5 iirc Nov 29 19:19:17 that 20k you mentioned, was that per month? Nov 29 19:19:22 i Nov 29 19:19:24 yes Nov 29 19:19:53 that's about 160k gbp per year Nov 29 19:19:55 in software, you can get that relatively easy, if you have a university degree or other special qualfications that a company needs Nov 29 19:20:08 you'll never get that as an engineer Nov 29 19:20:16 o_0 Nov 29 19:20:38 not in the companies I've heard or seen any figures from at least Nov 29 19:20:48 if you rise to director level, sure Nov 29 19:20:56 whups - sorry - i'm looking at the beagle bone to build something that will present a filesystem image as a mass storage device . I think that usb otg port will work - right? also - is there any way to add a second ethernet interfaces? usb- ethernet adapter? Nov 29 19:21:10 average sallary for a 35y old ee who doesnt have managment functions is somewhere around 120k/y (brutto)... software is 10-30% higher Nov 29 19:21:12 maybe working for a bank you'd get something like that Nov 29 19:21:38 bwlang: shhuuu... we are discussing money here! Nov 29 19:21:39 ;) Nov 29 19:21:53 of course the silly no degree thing makes worker visa about impossible for me ... :) Nov 29 19:22:09 mranostay: why dont you have a degree? you're not dumb are you? Nov 29 19:22:17 exactly Nov 29 19:22:35 mru: not everyone is an mru Nov 29 19:22:51 KotH: long story :) Nov 29 19:24:32 mru: as a refernece: friend of mine, 25, only apprenticeship as an glorified electrician, no higher education. self learned linux and windows skills, earned something in the region of 120/y(brutto) Nov 29 19:24:57 mru: but i must admit that he was exceptionally good, and often worked more than 60h a week because his moronic coworkers messed up Nov 29 19:25:24 and he is probably a rare exception for someone that young earning this much Nov 29 19:25:58 well, either I'm totally misinformed or severely underpaid Nov 29 19:26:06 possibly both Nov 29 19:26:08 probably both :) Nov 29 19:26:35 mru: remember when i was in london? Nov 29 19:26:41 mru: have you met isabella? Nov 29 19:26:46 mru: i think you have? Nov 29 19:26:54 we met some friends of yours Nov 29 19:27:00 don't remember the names Nov 29 19:27:05 mru: she earned more than i did back then, quite substantially Nov 29 19:27:12 yes, then you've met her Nov 29 19:27:21 * KotH doesnt have many friends in the uk Nov 29 19:27:39 but she was working as java programmer Nov 29 19:31:32 KotH: 125k at 25? nice Nov 29 19:31:56 mranostay: dont think you can get that Nov 29 19:32:05 mranostay: you're neither good enough, nor lucky enough Nov 29 19:32:21 ouch :) Nov 29 19:32:33 as i said, he was good in what he was doing Nov 29 19:32:47 oh, luck is involved? Nov 29 19:32:53 to a degree Nov 29 19:32:59 well, I have none of that Nov 29 19:33:24 if something is down to chance, it _always_ goes against me Nov 29 19:33:24 he was able to guide me trough the menues of japanese win98 on the phone, while not having seen a win98 box for years Nov 29 19:33:50 chance is not something you have, chance is something you create Nov 29 19:33:52 * ds2 tosses mru horseshoes, four leaf clovers, and rabbits feet Nov 29 19:34:23 what am I supposed to do with those, make a stew? Nov 29 19:35:26 ds2: hey those horsehoes hurt! Nov 29 19:35:32 *horseshoes Nov 29 19:35:46 mranostay: never stay in the line of fire! never! Nov 29 20:18:37 ds2: So I've been doing that procedure you gave me for startup of the bone (holding reset down, plugging in, starting minicom (repeatedly until it starts up), and letting go of reset once minicom is up Nov 29 20:18:50 ds2: so out of curiosity, how long does it take for minicom to be able to open the port? Nov 29 20:19:06 ds2: it's arbitrary on mine, sometimes short and sometimes up to 20 seconds. Nov 29 20:19:19 trying to figure whether my FTDI is a bit flaky or whether that's normal Nov 29 20:19:42 in my experience it's normal for ftdi to be flaky Nov 29 20:19:55 mru: 20 seconds flaky? Nov 29 20:20:09 bring down the usb port flaky Nov 29 20:21:44 alan_o: hint: use picocom Nov 29 20:21:52 alan_o: much better suited for this kind of stuff Nov 29 20:22:19 KotH: I'll give it a try. I used screen for a while. keep coming back to minicom, even with its bugs Nov 29 20:22:33 alan_o: and tail -f /var/log/kern.log will tell you when the ftdi is enumerated Nov 29 20:22:53 KotH: yeah, that's the thing, it _says_ its enumerated, but I can't open it Nov 29 20:23:05 mranostay, skill endorsed Nov 29 20:23:06 minicom: cannot open /dev/bone_console: Device or resource busy Nov 29 20:23:15 alan_o: minicom is thought for modem lines where you dial into a mailbox.. not for simple tty work Nov 29 20:23:31 KotH: yeah, I turn all that modem stuff off Nov 29 20:23:46 KotH: but I will try out picocom Nov 29 20:23:48 minicom segfaulted on some iconv thing one time too many Nov 29 20:23:51 not touching it again Nov 29 20:24:11 why does minicom need iconv? Nov 29 20:24:17 you tell me Nov 29 20:24:21 mru: you use picocom too? Nov 29 20:24:32 screen seems to work ok here Nov 29 20:24:48 mru: i'm surprised that you didnt write your own terminal program yet :) Nov 29 20:25:36 if you're ever stuck on windows, realterm is nice for debugging serial hardware. Can do a lot of hex stuff. Nov 29 20:26:03 I wish I had some of it's capability on something on linux (but I haven't looked very hard). Nov 29 20:26:05 lame name, realitty would've been much better Nov 29 20:26:23 alan_o: i have a linux box under my desk, exactly for that purpose Nov 29 20:26:40 alan_o: and people always come to me because their windows tools dont do stuff Nov 29 20:27:03 KotH: what do you mean "exactly for that purpose?" Nov 29 20:27:14 what I'd like is a small system with a ton of rs232 and an ethernet port Nov 29 20:27:18 for debugging embedded hardware Nov 29 20:27:32 KotH: oh, I was saying that realterm (on windows) is good for that. Nov 29 20:27:49 and he said he doesn't need it because he has a linux box Nov 29 20:27:51 mru: max232 and a bone? Nov 29 20:28:02 alan_o: if the only OS you have, every problem will look like a bluescreen :) Nov 29 20:28:05 you have 4 uarts you can hookup Nov 29 20:28:05 mranostay: not enough uarts Nov 29 20:28:11 alan_o: if the only OS you have is windows, every problem will look like a bluescreen :) Nov 29 20:28:12 or are you suggesting I bitbang them? Nov 29 20:28:16 KotH: What do you use for serial debugging, like looking at hex, sending hex strings, etc? Nov 29 20:28:23 i'm also saying bitbang everything Nov 29 20:28:29 *always Nov 29 20:28:34 alan_o: 10 lines of c? Nov 29 20:28:45 mru: how many uarts? Nov 29 20:28:59 two dozen or so should get me started Nov 29 20:29:07 alan_o: you know, on linux i can just write small c prog, shell script, ... and pipe it's data to picocom Nov 29 20:29:17 KotH: bah... I want something I can change settings on quickly and re-test. Nov 29 20:29:17 mru: standard 115200 max on them all? Nov 29 20:29:29 alan_o: never had that need Nov 29 20:29:56 KotH: it's more like, people hand me hardware that isn't documented whether it needs null modem, what kind of serial settings, etc. Nov 29 20:30:13 alan_o: i hope you charge them a lot Nov 29 20:30:29 KotH: it's typically T&M, so I suppose so Nov 29 20:30:38 alan_o: but writing a small gui that does that shouldnt be hard Nov 29 20:30:48 alan_o: at most 10kloc or so Nov 29 20:30:49 KotH: but I'm never surprised at lack of documentation of basic stuff. Nov 29 20:30:59 alan_o: T&M? Nov 29 20:31:13 KotH: there's no doubt I could write something, but having stuff that's already done is nice too. Nov 29 20:31:22 KotH: time and materials. Basically billing by the hour Nov 29 20:31:35 alan_o: it is not minicom. it is the kernel and USB enumeration Nov 29 20:31:42 alan_o: my experience is, that realterm (or actually windows underneath) is worse than anything i have under linux Nov 29 20:31:43 unless you left it configure for init port Nov 29 20:32:12 ds2: right, definitly not minicom. Nov 29 20:32:19 ds2: I think it's the hardware Nov 29 20:32:24 alan_o: do you charge them extra for emotional harm caused by these devices Nov 29 20:32:26 USB Nov 29 20:32:30 but does yours come up right away? Nov 29 20:32:39 nope Nov 29 20:32:40 is 20s on par with your experience? Nov 29 20:32:41 ok Nov 29 20:32:42 prpplague: 115200 is enough Nov 29 20:32:50 alan_o: 20s for enumeration? Nov 29 20:32:50 enumeration can be slow but 20s seems a bit high Nov 29 20:32:53 alan_o: that's a bit long Nov 29 20:32:57 ds2: it's not the enumeration Nov 29 20:33:04 it enumerates, shows good in the log Nov 29 20:33:07 but I can't open it Nov 29 20:33:14 "Device or resource busy" Nov 29 20:33:21 screen, minicom, whatever Nov 29 20:33:27 alan_o: udev being blocked? Nov 29 20:33:31 maybe it's loading firmware :) Nov 29 20:33:38 ftdi don't need firmware Nov 29 20:33:49 ds2: maybe systemd thinks otherwise ;) Nov 29 20:34:06 ds2: then it won't succeed in loading it Nov 29 20:34:11 KotH: don't think so. I'm accessing it through a udev-created symlink, which is created right away Nov 29 20:34:25 alan_o: strange Nov 29 20:34:33 does lsof have anything to say? Nov 29 20:34:36 mru: i have a couple of designs that i had done with the thought of doing a terminal server Nov 29 20:34:54 mru: digi sells some nice ones, but they are pretty expensive Nov 29 20:35:00 mru, good question, seems like I tried that. let me try again Nov 29 20:36:52 koen: I swear I used to be able to execute gpe-scap from the serial port. Nov 29 20:37:25 I'm not sure if I'm missing an 'xhost +' or anything like that. Nov 29 20:37:55 jkridner: $DISPLAY? Nov 29 20:38:52 mru: well now it wants to come up fast :) Nov 29 20:39:03 heisenbug Nov 29 20:39:13 alan_o: good, you found a workaround Nov 29 20:39:13 KotH: I'm setting it to :0.0 Nov 29 20:39:29 mru: hehe Nov 29 20:39:37 "just run it in the deugger then" Nov 29 20:40:13 jkridner: are you using systemd or similar cruft? Nov 29 20:40:14 jkridner: on an embedded system, and you expect it to display the x stuff on tft? Nov 29 20:40:20 that might be screwing with permissions Nov 29 20:40:29 :0.0 depends in the X server unix domain socket Nov 29 20:40:43 ds2: x is already a bitch by itself when it comes to security Nov 29 20:40:49 localhost:0.0 depends on 127.0.0.1:6000 which a lot of distros disable Nov 29 20:40:51 ds2: no need for systemd to mess up anything Nov 29 20:41:03 X is prefectly fine until the assholes doing distros screwed it up Nov 29 20:41:06 mru: oh well, it's only annoying once per session. Probably why I haven't had much motivation to fix it. Nov 29 20:41:19 -notcp is NOT a good default Nov 29 20:41:27 ds2: actually, tcp port has been disabled by the x people themselves Nov 29 20:41:37 not in the distros I seen Nov 29 20:41:38 ds2: hardly anyone uses it anymore Nov 29 20:41:47 "the x people" ain't who they used to be Nov 29 20:41:53 KotH: yeah, sounds like a great plan, let's just turn stuff off. Nov 29 20:42:00 KotH: like ctrl-alt-bksp Nov 29 20:42:02 i.e. "-nolisten tcp" on the command line. that sounds like a distro problem Nov 29 20:42:13 alan_o: the x proto has not been designed with a lot of security in mind Nov 29 20:42:19 KotH: and then say "nobody complained when it was in beta" Nov 29 20:42:33 security needs to be at the userlevel Nov 29 20:42:34 KotH: even though nobody uses beta X (compared to an ubuntu release) Nov 29 20:42:42 you cannot do security with a 20000ton sledge Nov 29 20:42:43 alan_o: most people use ssh x forwarding to access remote systems these days Nov 29 20:42:53 alan_o: so it does make sense to plug that security hole Nov 29 20:42:58 morons will find ways to accidentially bypass it w/o knowing. Nov 29 20:43:06 KotH: oh yeah, no doubt, and it's always been defaulted that way as far as I've known Nov 29 20:43:18 KotH: well, in distros I've used, etc. Nov 29 20:43:36 ds2: the various startup scripts that are distributed with xorg set that Nov 29 20:43:37 KotH: well, not blocking TCP overall, but not allowing it from outside localhost. Nov 29 20:43:43 ds2: that's hardly a distro thing Nov 29 20:43:49 KotH: distros can change things. Nov 29 20:43:54 ds2: sure Nov 29 20:43:55 it is a distro thing Nov 29 20:44:04 I hate distros, they're the worst Nov 29 20:44:23 alan_o: running lfs? Nov 29 20:44:29 if they weren't so convinced they know better than the original authors... Nov 29 20:44:50 mru: if it's pöttering, they actually do Nov 29 20:45:11 ds2: yes, systemd. Nov 29 20:45:13 KotH: but his sw should not be used at all Nov 29 20:45:22 does it start X with funny permissions? Nov 29 20:45:24 yeah Nov 29 20:45:28 KotH: no, I'm running ubuntu 10.04. Nov 29 20:45:34 lol Nov 29 20:45:43 KotH: I don't screw with distros much. Once something works, I leave it alone until ti doesn't Nov 29 20:45:45 alan_o: then you have no right to complain Nov 29 20:45:49 ??? Nov 29 20:46:00 I was trying (unsuccessfully) to be funny :) Nov 29 20:46:15 alan_o: ubunto is geared down for main stream, gui clickibunti users Nov 29 20:46:15 jkridner: it tries to be invasive as to what the perms are set to... some guys was on the other night and the problem was systemd chowning things it shouldn't be Nov 29 20:46:22 KotH: I used to like Slackware and the vanilla everything attitude Nov 29 20:46:46 KotH: then he stopped packaging gnome. Nov 29 20:46:46 alan_o: they explicitly want to adress the 80% of the users that does not want to deal with the intricate details of running a linux system Nov 29 20:46:52 I used to run something that had once been slackware Nov 29 20:47:04 KotH: but recently I think I've abandoned ship and moved to kde. Nov 29 20:47:07 alan_o: you are definitly not one of those 80% Nov 29 20:47:20 it is preferred that those 80% don't run computers. Nov 29 20:47:23 alan_o: why would you need gnome or kde? Nov 29 20:47:33 what ds2 said Nov 29 20:47:48 KotH: it's not a matter of need, it's a matter of I don't like to have to manually screw with stuff _all_ the time. Nov 29 20:48:02 * KotH doesnt screw manually with anything Nov 29 20:48:05 ds2: do you think they'd notice if we replaced their computers with backlit posters of the windows bsod? Nov 29 20:48:06 or very little actually Nov 29 20:48:22 mru: I think the backlit part isn't even needed Nov 29 20:48:27 KotH: you prefer electric screwdrivers? Nov 29 20:48:31 prehaps some of those "computers" that ikea uses in their showrooms? Nov 29 20:48:39 alan_o: and i have not run gnome or kde for 12 years (safe 2 months on my laptop to try whether it still sucks... and it does) Nov 29 20:48:55 mru: with at least 500W Nov 29 20:49:03 KotH: and it's like this.... When I walk into a customer facility, and I can get on the wifi in 2 seconds, that makes linux look good (to them), and when they hand me a USB stick and I plug it in and the filemanager pops up, that makes linux look good (to them). If I'm staring at an X test pattern and have to manually mount disks and manually run iwconfig then that makes Linux look bad. Nov 29 20:49:17 I am looking for a way to interface with a device that uses a dual port memory interface with 11 address lines and 8 data lines. Any suggestions? Nov 29 20:49:25 alan_o: you can get that w/o gnome Nov 29 20:49:35 KotH: I know Nov 29 20:49:42 that's why I've been running it for years :) Nov 29 20:49:44 alan_o: and much faster as well Nov 29 20:49:47 had to check my power drill, says 550W Nov 29 20:50:08 oh wait, you said w/o Nov 29 20:50:20 KotH: maybe I can, if I do everything myself, or run some other desktop Nov 29 20:50:33 alan_o: i dont do everything myself Nov 29 20:50:43 alan_o: i dont have the time for that and i'm not 18 anymore Nov 29 20:50:52 I definitely prefer to control mounting of disks myself Nov 29 20:50:53 tried xfce, but it doesn't have good wireless integration, and the trackpad doesn't work well unless you really screw with it. Nov 29 20:50:56 alan_o: eg wicd handles my wifi needs Nov 29 20:51:19 KotH: yeah, I saw wicd, but haven't tried it. (had other problems) Nov 29 20:51:22 alan_o: simply install it, put it into .Xsession and the rest works like it should Nov 29 20:51:26 KotH: so what's your desktop of choice Nov 29 20:51:27 ? Nov 29 20:51:30 what does the window manager have to do with the trackpad? Nov 29 20:51:41 that should be handled entirely by X itself Nov 29 20:51:48 alan_o: plain x11 w/o any fucking desktop enviroment that thinks it knows better than i do what i want Nov 29 20:52:01 well, without manually screwing with anything..... when I run xfce it doesn't work the way I want, and with gnome/kde it does Nov 29 20:52:26 I don't know what it should or shouldn't have to do with it, but I'm just reflecting reality as I see it. Nov 29 20:52:44 what kind of trackpad? synaptics? Nov 29 20:52:45 KotH: X11 and xterm? Nov 29 20:52:46 alan_o: i have an icewm config, that i keep for.. prolly 11 years. it got adjusted over the years for changing screen sizes, but not much Nov 29 20:53:14 mru: the one that's on the macbook pro.. uses synaptics driver. Nov 29 20:54:05 then dump the settings with synclient when it's working like you want it Nov 29 20:54:17 and restore them under whatever wm you like Nov 29 20:54:44 KotH: the other thing is that stuff is easy once you've figrued out how to do it, right? "just put wicd in your .Xsettings" It's not the putting it in the xsettings that takes time. It's the time between, "hmm, my wireless doesn't work" and figuring out what you have to do. And I know it's popular to say that kind of stuff is easy, but it's hours I'd rather spend doing software development or learning something I actually care about. Kno Nov 29 20:54:45 w what I mean? Nov 29 20:54:45 alan_o: yeah.. though i use urxvt Nov 29 20:55:14 alan_o: sylpheed for mail, firefox for web, gajim for xpp, xmms for mp3,... Nov 29 20:55:18 mru: sure, that works. But like I said above, it's not what's fun for me, I guess. Nov 29 20:55:47 alan_o: it's something you'd do once Nov 29 20:56:04 if that's what's stopping you using another wm Nov 29 20:56:19 alan_o: i know what you mean. but "wireless does not work" doesn't happen that often, and wicd helps with the setup Nov 29 20:56:22 I also have a friend who says, "I turn on every kind of desktop effect I can, so that people come up and say, 'hey that's cool, what's that,' and I say 'that's linux,' and they're interested" Nov 29 20:56:39 alan_o: but yes, i know how the tools behind it work, how ifconfig, iwconfig etc work Nov 29 20:56:48 alan_o: i also know quite well how x11 works Nov 29 20:56:51 It is something you do once, but it quickly turns into once every time you upgrade. Nov 29 20:56:59 alan_o: that is stuff i consider basic linux knowledge Nov 29 20:57:12 upgrade, what's that? Nov 29 20:57:25 * mru does not believe in the Big Upgrade model Nov 29 20:57:50 alan_o: i dont know how shitty ubuntu has become, but running debian/testing on anything that isnt a server and i have yet to find something that breaks at every update Nov 29 20:58:01 KotH: I know those things too, and I could make a script that does all that, putt it in.xsettings, etc, but I guess I just prefer to spend my energy on more interesting aspects of Linux. Nov 29 20:58:02 alan_o: as i said, my base config is about 12 years old Nov 29 20:58:09 alan_o: it's from the time i started using linux Nov 29 20:58:33 KotH: ubuntu and fedora kind of make it a point for each release to be distinctly different somehow Nov 29 20:58:34 alan_o: it's very seldom something brakes, and it's most often in the kernel than anything lese (called the kinali linux curse) Nov 29 20:58:37 KotH: well, if my desktop was urxvt, nothing of mine would be broken either :) Nov 29 20:59:59 alan_o: uhmm.. Nov 29 21:00:12 alan_o: although most of my windows are urxvt's, they are not the only ones Nov 29 21:00:26 alan_o: i've prolly 200-500 windows open Nov 29 21:00:54 alan_o: i gues that urxvt and firefox are both about 1/3 of that Nov 29 21:01:43 I think there's benefit to having a desktop. I guess I just started this stuff with ancient KDE (pre-release 4 or something like that) and gnome (0.2). I see the value of having panels with little widgets on them, stuff like the x-chat notifier blinking when I have a message, launchers for the 6 apps I use all the time, multiple desktops that easily just work, etc. Nov 29 21:01:59 alan_o: yes, my system looks "strange" to the linux noob, because he has not seen how unices looked 10 years ago, but it's not an outdated system where everything is done by hand. i'm lazy as well, you know? Nov 29 21:01:59 turns out it wasn't anything odd.... Nov 29 21:02:08 just needed to issue 'xhost +' Nov 29 21:02:14 And, here's the best part, if my wife wants to use it, she can sit down and start clicking, and walk away with the feeling that Linux is usable to normal people. Nov 29 21:02:22 jkridner: nooooo!!!! Nov 29 21:02:39 alan_o: oh.. icewm can do notifiers as well, that's nothing you need a full blown DE for Nov 29 21:02:42 It didn't used to be required in the images. Nov 29 21:02:56 alan_o: lol Nov 29 21:03:25 alan_o: i've friends who know linux, who have a hard time using my system... because it has focus follows mouse, and hundreds of windows open on a dozen desktops Nov 29 21:03:45 alan_o: but as i said, i have a weird (by todays standards) way of using my system Nov 29 21:04:04 KotH: I've gone back and forth on focus follows mouse. I settled on having it off, but I try it the other way sometime. I'm a compulsive mouser/highlighter. Nov 29 21:04:48 hmm.. i used ot have pictures of my desktop somewhere Nov 29 21:04:52 wonder where they went Nov 29 21:05:40 alan_o: the cool thing about linux (unlike windows or macos) is you can actually configure the system to the way you are working Nov 29 21:05:51 alan_o: ie, you adapt the system to your needs, and not the otherway round Nov 29 21:06:02 alan_o: unless you are using gnome3 ofc Nov 29 21:06:15 KotH: and that's why I'm pretty much done with gnome Nov 29 21:07:00 KotH: it's sad really. I was running cinammon until about a week after ELC and then I switched over to KDE. Nov 29 21:07:16 alan_o: http://attila.kinali.ch/syl.jpg Nov 29 21:07:34 alan_o: a typical view of my desktop, when on the second (mail client) desktop Nov 29 21:07:51 alan_o: though that pic is old... 2002 Nov 29 21:07:54 that mail client always makes me think of syphilis Nov 29 21:08:01 rotlf Nov 29 21:08:10 mru: makes you start itching? Nov 29 21:08:44 alan_o: another (old) impression http://attila.kinali.ch/xnetload.jpg Nov 29 21:09:14 KotH: that wm border style looks just like Java Swing's default theme (or what it used to look like) when you make MDI windows. Nov 29 21:09:29 alan_o: it's older than that :) Nov 29 21:09:33 alan_o: icewm metal2 theme Nov 29 21:09:46 can't remember what Java called it Nov 29 21:09:50 alan_o: i'm quite sure it's copied from somewhere else, but i dont know where Nov 29 21:10:02 alan_o: "metal" iirc Nov 29 21:10:28 mru that sounds right. Maybe icewm borrowed it, or maybe the other way. Swing was like 1998? Nov 29 21:10:35 Java 1.2 Nov 29 21:10:53 I used it in 99, but it wasn't widely deployed. Most were on 1.0 Nov 29 21:11:00 likewise Nov 29 21:11:01 1.1 Nov 29 21:11:22 and for all its horrors, it was miles better than awt Nov 29 21:11:37 I frist saw some java stuff 98 or so Nov 29 21:11:45 mru: I loved doing Java back then, I won't lie. Nov 29 21:12:01 I thought making GUIs was where it was at. Nov 29 21:12:03 but learned it really since 2003 Nov 29 21:12:07 remember how gui event handling in awt was done? Nov 29 21:12:15 yes. Nov 29 21:12:20 anonymous inner class Nov 29 21:12:22 thankfully, I don't Nov 29 21:12:29 that was one way Nov 29 21:12:30 lol Nov 29 21:12:49 * KotH still thinks that turbo vision was one of the simples gui systems ever Nov 29 21:13:02 now I dont want to use java without maven or spring Nov 29 21:13:10 heck, even i could grasp it after having learned my first programming language a mere 3 months ago Nov 29 21:13:22 but you typically had a single object/function receive all events, and then you'd have to check one by one which element it came from Nov 29 21:13:27 woglinde: s/without maven or spring// Nov 29 21:13:53 mru: sounds very OO Nov 29 21:14:00 mru: a lot of people did that, but I never did Nov 29 21:14:02 you didn't have to Nov 29 21:14:07 or rather "i have no fucking clue what OO means" Nov 29 21:14:09 I never understood why that was done Nov 29 21:14:16 alan_o: that was what all the books said Nov 29 21:14:42 the alternative was to have one event listener object per gui element Nov 29 21:14:48 mru: a lot of them did, yes. Still, no idea why, when doing it the more obvious way was easier and cleaner. Nov 29 21:15:02 mru: yeah, that. Nov 29 21:15:13 the idea of passing the an element reference along with the event never seemed to occur to the people who made it Nov 29 21:15:19 http://attila.kinali.ch/japan-2009/essen/p8040167.jpg <- as distraction from all this technical stuff Nov 29 21:15:44 looks fishy Nov 29 21:15:52 mru: sorry dude, nothing for you Nov 29 21:15:54 mru: I think it did do that. that's what people switched or if/else'd on. if (sender == button1), etc. Nov 29 21:16:04 mru: http://attila.kinali.ch/japan-2009/essen/p7270004.jpg Nov 29 21:16:31 mru: that's from a danke in chourinkan/yamato-shi/kanagawa-ken :) Nov 29 21:16:34 alan_o: hmm maybe, but it was missing something obvious that was added in swing Nov 29 21:16:59 mru: oh, in awt, yeah, hard for me to remember, I thought the event hadnling was the same, but I could be wrong. Nov 29 21:17:09 mru: or rather chinese http://attila.kinali.ch/japan-2009/essen/p7280005.jpg (yokohama, in one of the trainstation, whos name i forgot) Nov 29 21:17:48 KotH: now that's starting to look more like it. Cooked food! Nov 29 21:18:09 alan_o: http://attila.kinali.ch/japan-2009/essen/p8010067.jpg that's the only thing you get! ;-) Nov 29 21:18:29 aww man... Nov 29 21:18:45 (yes, this is really a bag full of ice, bought in a supermarket) Nov 29 21:19:15 alan_o: how about http://attila.kinali.ch/japan-2009/essen/p8040094.jpg ? Nov 29 21:19:35 (ekiben, bought in shinjuku-eki iirc) Nov 29 21:19:41 I don't even know what I'm looking at Nov 29 21:21:17 left to right, top to bottom: pickled plumes, grilled fish, cooked pumpkin and sweet potatos, rice with fish and konyaku, rice with natto and sesam, rice with konyaku and sesam Nov 29 21:22:31 sounds good to me Nov 29 21:22:38 I like "grilled" :) Nov 29 21:22:48 oh.. sorry.. germanism Nov 29 21:22:50 ^^' Nov 29 21:22:59 grill = bbq Nov 29 21:23:05 grilled = fried Nov 29 21:23:19 no, I was being serious.. I like cooked :) Nov 29 21:23:20 how about some japanese sweets: http://attila.kinali.ch/japan-2009/essen/p8070194.jpg Nov 29 21:23:48 I like the looks of that too Nov 29 21:23:54 http://attila.kinali.ch/japan-2009/essen/p8090234.jpg <- more my style of food Nov 29 21:24:27 cant remember where that was though, somewhere in kanagawa-ken Nov 29 21:25:22 http://attila.kinali.ch/japan-2009/essen/p8090236.jpg <- even better! zaru-soba and a donburi! Nov 29 21:25:51 * KotH needs to go to japan Nov 29 21:25:55 soon! Nov 29 21:26:41 av500: FYE http://attila.kinali.ch/tagesanzeiger-zuerich-informatiker.jpg Nov 29 21:28:10 koth nice the comment Nov 29 21:28:12 av500: letter send to a major newspaper after within 2-3 month three programmers killed their families and themselves Nov 29 21:31:14 and with that, i wish you a good night Nov 29 21:31:14 * panto boggles at the shit that get merged to mainline some times Nov 29 21:31:27 KotH: later! Nov 29 21:31:31 panto: link? Nov 29 21:31:42 panto: dont worry, have a look at the pictures above and have some nice japanese food :) Nov 29 21:31:46 alan_o, just a bug I came across Nov 29 21:31:53 panto: there's a reason I run the long-term maintenance kernels Nov 29 21:32:01 daily wtf material Nov 29 21:32:01 and update only once they've reached .10 or so Nov 29 21:32:15 mru, I'll check and see Nov 29 21:32:42 chances are you are just lucky and never hit the case Nov 29 23:12:28 hi prpplague ! Nov 29 23:12:53 mranostay: hey Nov 29 23:12:57 * prpplague is grumpy Nov 29 23:13:46 i can imagine Nov 29 23:15:21 * prpplague tears down panda posters and takes down his "I don't always develop, but when i do, i do it embedded" post card Nov 29 23:16:04 prpplague: being kicked out of the office already? Nov 29 23:16:54 mru: yep Nov 29 23:17:09 sucks Nov 29 23:18:55 prpplague: need a group hug? Nov 29 23:19:45 first person that tries that on me gets a panda pcb between the eyes.... hehe Nov 29 23:19:58 av500: give him a bear hug Nov 29 23:20:02 oooh free pandas ;) Nov 29 23:20:21 ds2: es1.0 dead pandas Nov 29 23:20:37 prpplague: only the first person? Nov 29 23:20:40 @#%$#$@%#@$#$#@#@%@$#$A Nov 29 23:21:23 mranostay: Yu-Gi-Oh got nothing on me when comes to dishing out panda pcbs Nov 29 23:24:17 do we get to keep the pandas we are pelted with? Nov 29 23:37:58 mranostay: only if they draw blood Nov 29 23:46:21 heh Nov 30 00:12:32 anyone know how mmap works in drivers that try to provide access to device memory? Nov 30 00:12:55 do writes go through a page fault and then to the driver? Nov 30 00:13:06 depends Nov 30 00:13:17 google remap_pfn_range :) Nov 30 00:13:50 Crofton, yes I was looking at that Nov 30 00:13:57 * mranostay wishes he could sleep right now Nov 30 00:14:09 just not clear- if the write goes through immediately Nov 30 00:14:12 mranostay, everyone is drinking beer but me Nov 30 00:14:17 heh Nov 30 00:14:18 when did it become socially unacceptable to nap at your desk? Nov 30 00:14:23 Crofton: i'm not.... Nov 30 00:14:26 for ex, X server uses mmap to write to video memory directly Nov 30 00:14:31 joelagnel, I am fighting the saem thing :) Nov 30 00:14:52 Crofton, ahh Nov 30 00:15:06 vma->vm_page_prot = pgprot_noncached(vma->vm_page_prot); Nov 30 00:15:06 if (remap_pfn_range(vma, vma->vm_start, d->fpga_buffer_pages, Nov 30 00:15:06 size, vma->vm_page_prot)) Nov 30 00:16:49 Crofton, can you point to the entire source file? Is that code a part of an mmap implementation in your driver? Nov 30 00:17:59 appreciate it Nov 30 00:23:11 Crofton, found another example. cool Nov 30 00:23:26 Crofton, is that physical address space in your example actually on GPMC? Nov 30 00:25:19 hello all Nov 30 00:25:33 hey all Nov 30 00:25:40 i need help Nov 30 00:26:04 regarding booting linux 3.6 on beagleboard xM Nov 30 00:27:06 anyone can help? Nov 30 00:28:34 I am trying to compile GNURadio using cmake and I get this error: CMake Error at /usr/share/cmake-2.8/Modules/CMakeTestCXXCompiler.cmake:45 (MESSAGE): The C++ compiler "/usr/bin/g++" is not able to compile a simple test program. Nov 30 00:28:43 joelagnel: you looked at the framebuffer stuff? Nov 30 00:28:46 I have g++ installed Nov 30 00:29:02 Any ideas? Nov 30 00:29:02 ds2, no haven't,. what about it? Nov 30 00:29:41 joelagnel: they do mmap stuff Nov 30 00:29:51 IIRC, the preferred way of doing fb stuff is to mmap them Nov 30 00:30:20 I am trying to boot Linux 3.6 on Beagleboard xM, and i am using the console ttyO2, but the when the beagleboards, it reaches a point where it displays the message: cannot open /dev/ttyO2 Nov 30 00:30:24 any help? Nov 30 00:32:48 hello all Nov 30 00:33:06 ds2, right Nov 30 00:33:15 Just not sure about the lower level details for my understanding Nov 30 00:33:23 oh Nov 30 00:33:47 anyone have any experience with gstreamer on a beaglebone? Nov 30 00:34:41 waffles881, do u have experience with booting linux on beagleboard? Nov 30 00:35:06 I am already booted and ssh'ed into the board, i do not know why it is not giving me the right dependency list. Nov 30 00:35:07 ds2, when the mmap Nov 30 00:35:33 ds2, when the mmap page is flushed, a write function in the fb device driver would be called Nov 30 00:35:44 I am wondering if this write is triggered through page faults Nov 30 00:35:48 Guest2269: actually it is the beaglebone* not beagleboard Nov 30 00:35:49 waffless, did u already boot Linux v 3.x on beagleboard xM? Nov 30 00:36:13 *not page faults, I mean as a result of the kernel writing back dirty pages Nov 30 00:36:17 joelagnel: I don't think that is the normal case Nov 30 00:36:17 Guest2269: we are using the beaglebone* Rev A6 Nov 30 00:36:24 not the beagleboard xM Nov 30 00:36:33 i do not have experience with beaglebone Nov 30 00:36:37 framebuffer pages are typically not trashed cuz their physical addresses get programmed onto the controller Nov 30 00:36:46 i ask if u have experience with Beagleboard xM Nov 30 00:36:49 not sure if mmap'ed memory can be synchronously written from userspace (that is the write going all the way through to the fb driver immediately)? Nov 30 00:36:53 as no one is replying here Nov 30 00:37:14 Guest2269: no i do not, I do not really have any experience with this board either, but I'm trying to get some i guess. Nov 30 00:37:29 joelagnel: I suspect it can but it needs to be specified as such... there are other drivers that depend on those MMU hooks (i.e. the eink stuff and the USB video drivers) Nov 30 00:37:34 ds2, ok I was talking about a spi fb driver for example, in that case there's no physical memory and all writes go through the spi driver which translates it into spi commands or whatever Nov 30 00:37:47 you have already Linux booting on your beaglebone? Nov 30 00:38:03 ds2, ah I see, that makes sense Nov 30 00:38:05 joelagnel: ah... yes, that would rely on the call back to actually sync w/hw Nov 30 00:38:13 but normal fb drivers, i.e the omapfb driver doesn't Nov 30 00:38:58 putting it another way, some eink, USB, and the SPI drivers provide mmap as a way to let existing apps work. they are not (by the nature of the hw) mmap able Nov 30 00:39:00 ds2, ok . so I guess all mmap writes have to be sync'ed (considering you said fb uses mmap) Nov 30 00:39:31 even in the omap fb driver for example, if it is not sync'ed immediately, then wouldn't there be a significant slowness in the framerate Nov 30 00:39:54 yes Nov 30 00:44:10 ds2, so I guess they need to probably do an msync() immediately, ok that makes sense Nov 30 00:46:36 joelagnel: what hw are you debugging? Nov 30 00:48:54 ds2, am335x. just some research on how remap_pfn_range can help solve a perf issue Nov 30 00:50:49 ah Nov 30 00:51:01 joelagnel: gpmc stuff Nov 30 00:51:02 ? Nov 30 00:54:08 ds2, no not gpmc, there is arm cpu utilization issue in a crpto driver Nov 30 00:54:23 Oh Nov 30 00:54:55 did you check for obvious stuff like cache issues? Nov 30 00:55:09 ds2, no not yet, i just started looking at it Nov 30 00:55:58 ds2, thanks though, will watch out for that Nov 30 00:56:02 joelagnel: if you mmap, you're writing directly to the real hw location Nov 30 00:56:08 the kernel does not get in between Nov 30 00:56:24 mru, i know Nov 30 00:56:47 what was the question then? Nov 30 00:58:18 mru, well the kernel does get in between when the page is flushed right, and it would involve a write call to the *file Nov 30 00:58:28 uh, no Nov 30 00:58:37 what do you mean by "when the page is flushed"? Nov 30 00:59:15 if you were to take a spi based fb device Nov 30 00:59:25 mmap /dev/fbX Nov 30 00:59:35 manual update displays require, er, manual update Nov 30 00:59:53 you have to tell the kernel to do the update Nov 30 00:59:57 iirc there's an ioctl for that Nov 30 01:00:10 mru, so you're saying mmap wont work for this case Nov 30 01:00:24 you can mmap a backing buffer and draw into that Nov 30 01:00:39 but you have to explicitly push it out to the actual display Nov 30 01:01:34 mru, well the thing is mmap'ed pages that are written to will ultimately be flushed Nov 30 01:01:43 so why the need to make it explicit Nov 30 01:01:51 flushed? Nov 30 01:01:54 by what? Nov 30 01:01:57 triggered by what? Nov 30 01:02:00 it isn't a natural memory mapped IO device Nov 30 01:02:27 the kernel could be sending updates off a timer of course Nov 30 01:04:11 mru, i meant a writeback to mmap's backing device Nov 30 01:04:32 the normal way how writeback's happen , maybe i am missing something Nov 30 01:04:51 you're thinking in terms of the block layer Nov 30 01:05:04 memory used for I/O work slightly different Nov 30 01:05:06 where memory pages can be backed by some storage medium Nov 30 01:05:17 and paged in/out on demand Nov 30 01:05:22 this is different Nov 30 01:05:36 mru: there is a hack used for those serial fb devices :( Nov 30 01:06:28 mru, yeah that hack is what would probably require something like the block layer (?). Nov 30 01:06:49 no Nov 30 01:06:52 no, the blocklayer does other magic Nov 30 01:07:15 the block layer is to service executeables Nov 30 01:07:21 there's an OMAPFB_UPDATE_WINDOW ioctl Nov 30 01:08:27 or for the lazy, you can set automatic update Nov 30 01:08:42 which updates the entire framebuffer periodically Nov 30 01:08:51 omapfb_start_auto_update() Nov 30 01:09:09 controlled by ioctl(OMAPFB_SET_UPDATE_MODE) Nov 30 01:11:09 ds2, mru, ok thanks Nov 30 01:12:18 I guess my original question was, since the mmap'ed memory would probably be page backed (which as mru mentioned - memory writes dont go through kernel obviously), how does the driver get notified of these writes Nov 30 01:12:35 and the answer is that it doesn't Nov 30 01:13:24 mru, you mean the explicit ioctl is what notifies it right Nov 30 01:15:28 joelagnel: look at fb_defio.c for the magic Nov 30 01:18:01 ds2, cool ok , nothing like looking at code. I see the workqueue thread doing it yes Nov 30 01:18:04 thanks Nov 30 01:20:03 that's used by some fb drivers Nov 30 01:20:29 not by omapfb though Nov 30 01:20:51 yes, hence the comment about 'natural mmap' and the artifical ones Nov 30 01:21:02 omapfb is naturally mmap-able. Nov 30 01:21:12 depends Nov 30 01:21:30 omap dss supports remote framebuffer panels Nov 30 01:22:15 through dsi and the like Nov 30 01:22:16 ah yes, forgot about that Nov 30 01:22:40 same concept though Nov 30 01:32:03 * Crofton is debuging by trashing ddr until linux crashes Nov 30 01:32:37 joelagnel, sorry I am not super helpful Nov 30 01:32:43 got my own war to fight Nov 30 01:34:06 war?!??? when will there ever be peace! Nov 30 01:34:15 'tis the season.... Nov 30 01:34:17 when all the wars have been fought Nov 30 01:55:52 Crofton: that is debugging? Nov 30 01:56:23 mranostay: you guys debug? Nov 30 01:56:46 mranostay: I usually just code and commit. Haven't used a compiler in ages. Nov 30 01:56:58 mranostay, ys, this is a debugging technique Nov 30 01:59:12 argh... right after you send something to a public mailing list (or three) is when you realize the mistake..... Nov 30 02:42:50 ok, I am less stupid than this morning Nov 30 02:46:16 getting wiser with age? Nov 30 02:52:21 mranostay, we were software defined before it was cool Nov 30 02:53:22 Crofton: It took me until just now to connect your nick to your name... I'm _more_ stupid than this morning. Nov 30 02:54:14 rofl **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 30 02:59:58 2012