**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 09 02:59:59 2013
Mar 09 03:06:15 * mranostay thinks of a talk to submit for plumbers
Mar 09 03:08:20 <prpplague> mranostay: "Device Tree: When Plumbers make the Plumbing too complicated"
Mar 09 03:10:24 <prpplague> mranostay: "Device Tree: Because the plumbing in every rest room should match the capabilities of an outhouse"
Mar 09 03:12:41 <mtadyshak> That's funny!
Mar 09 03:13:10 <mtadyshak> An outhouse is a mass-storage device.
Mar 09 03:13:44 <mtadyshak> Except it is organic...
Mar 09 03:22:34 <Shadyman> anyone know offhand the distance between stacked capes? (ie height available for components)? I don't have calipers on me
Mar 09 03:22:51 <Shadyman> Or my bbone, for that matter :x
Mar 09 03:29:56 <mtadyshak> Would need to be slightly less than the height of the RJ-45 Ethernet connector.  Capes have a cutout for that.  Top of connector is about flush with top surface of cape PC board.
Mar 09 03:36:57 <Shadyman> hm
Mar 09 04:11:48 <mdp> prpplague: um, ouch! perhaps I'll just take that as a compliment of some sort ;)
Mar 09 04:11:49 <mdp> bbt
Mar 09 04:32:03 <mranostay> prpplague: i hope you are happy :P
Mar 09 04:45:28 <Shadyman> Oh HTML5, how do I love thee. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=do+the+harlem+shake
Mar 09 04:47:57 <mranostay> prpplague: whoa my BBB is pulling 0.5 amps :)
Mar 09 04:49:35 <mranostay> space heater
Mar 09 05:29:54 <mrpackethead> what did i miss
Mar 09 05:36:02 <mranostay> jkridner: inc
Mar 09 05:36:09 <jkridner> yo!
Mar 09 05:36:11 * mranostay goes out to drink
Mar 09 05:37:01 <mranostay> out is 200 yards but it is out :)
Mar 09 05:46:02 <ka6sox> mranostay, just don't get a WUI
Mar 09 05:47:09 <mranostay> ka6sox: what they take my walking privs?
Mar 09 05:47:22 <mranostay> i can only walk to work than that is it? :P
Mar 09 05:48:04 <ka6sox> I think in CA its 3 WUI's before they make you take a Cab.
Mar 09 05:55:09 <mru> troll troll troll
Mar 09 05:56:52 <ka6sox> mru, what TZ are you in today?
Mar 09 05:57:08 <ka6sox> (or better yet what TZ does your body think you are in?)
Mar 09 06:01:56 <mranostay> mru is a state of mind
Mar 09 07:09:11 <_av500_> gah
Mar 09 07:13:34 <_av500_> buildroot fail
Mar 09 07:17:59 <mru> ka6sox: I'm physically in hong kong
Mar 09 07:27:16 <Shadyman> Hmm. Everything's in place for an SD card on MMC2 except mmc2_cmd
Mar 09 07:28:20 <mrpackethead> mru: what part of HKG?
Mar 09 07:44:33 <ka6sox> okay...this HDMI Sound thing is becoming clear...as Mud...but I think I know where its going.
Mar 09 07:44:59 <ka6sox> but its time for bed
Mar 09 07:47:14 <mru> mrpackethead: hong komg island at the moment
Mar 09 07:47:38 <mrpackethead> do you live there
Mar 09 07:47:45 <mrpackethead> or just visiting
Mar 09 07:47:57 <mru> visiting
Mar 09 07:48:16 <mrpackethead> not a place i'd want to live
Mar 09 07:57:20 <_av500_> they tore down the best part of HK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City
Mar 09 08:00:40 <mrpackethead> anyway.
Mar 09 08:04:50 <_av500_> gah, disk is full
Mar 09 08:05:03 <_av500_> need 1TB SSD in this laptop
Mar 09 09:38:19 <koen> ka6sox: gpmc DT patches are in the beagle 3.8 kernel now
Mar 09 10:14:50 <aholler_> a 18" tablet, funny
Mar 09 10:16:22 <aholler> still not large enough for a newspaper ;)
Mar 09 10:23:31 <mranostay> morning
Mar 09 10:47:06 <abetusk> I'm looking for a little help.  I'm setting up an angstrom distribution on an sd-card and I've gotten up to the point of running "omap3mkcard.sh" in this tutorial: http://treyweaver.blogspot.com/2010/10/installing-angstrom-on-beagleboard-xm.html but now I can't mount the sd card
Mar 09 10:47:41 <abetusk> trying to 'mount /dev/sdb1 /media/test' gives me an error saying I need to specify the filesystem type
Mar 09 10:48:08 <aholler> file /dev/sdb1
Mar 09 10:48:29 <abetusk> /dev/sdb1: block special
Mar 09 10:49:30 <aholler> file -s /dev/sdb1
Mar 09 10:50:52 <abetusk> /dev/sdb1: data
Mar 09 10:51:21 <aholler> so something went wrong
Mar 09 10:51:28 <abetusk> ah, ok
Mar 09 10:51:37 <abetusk> that tutorial is 3 years old...
Mar 09 10:51:49 <abetusk> any suggestions on what to do or what tutorial to follow?
Mar 09 11:00:37 <ynezz> and there was no error? like everything went smoothly?
Mar 09 11:01:08 <ynezz> mainly that mkcard script
Mar 09 11:01:18 <abetusk> ynezz, no, I think something went wrong.  I lost the output screen and I don't remember what it is
Mar 09 11:01:24 <ynezz> great
Mar 09 11:01:34 <abetusk> I'm running mkcard.txt as suggested by this now: http://elinux.org/BeagleBoardBeginners
Mar 09 11:01:40 <abetusk> it's taking a while though
Mar 09 11:02:04 <ynezz> great
Mar 09 11:02:54 <abetusk> The last message it displayed was 'Writing superblocks and filesystem accounting information:'.  It's been like that for maybe 5 minutes?  The card is 32gb...
Mar 09 11:03:59 <ynezz> sorry, I've forget my crystal ball at work
Mar 09 11:04:15 <abetusk> I have no sense for how long it should take..
Mar 09 11:06:03 <abetusk> ah, done, awesome
Mar 09 11:17:13 <abetusk> I should be using the 'MLO', 'modules.tgz', 'u-boot.img' and 'uImage' from here: http://downloads.angstrom-distribution.org/demo/beagleboard/ ?
Mar 09 11:17:36 <abetusk> And also, I should be using the first angstrom link for the actual distribution? Angstrom-Beagleboard-demo-image-glibc-ipk-2011.1-beagleboard.rootfs.tar.bz2  ?
Mar 09 11:21:14 <koen> abetusk: have you noticed that http://downloads.angstrom-distribution.org/demo/beagleboard/ has instructions?
Mar 09 11:21:34 <koen> and I guess those would work better than some random blog
Mar 09 11:22:45 <abetusk> koen, ok, thanks.  Sorry, still trying to get my bearings
Mar 09 11:52:03 <egarcia> joel_: hi
Mar 09 12:05:54 <mru> troll troll troll
Mar 09 12:06:01 <_av500_> +1
Mar 09 14:05:54 <Kristina> Okay, what would be the easiest way of booting a non-ELF kernel on BeagleBoard?
Mar 09 14:06:52 <dm8tbr> mind you I understand nothing of this, but shouldn't U-boot do that?
Mar 09 14:07:09 <Kristina> Yeah, I was just thinking about adding mach-o support to uboot.
Mar 09 14:08:34 <dm8tbr> doesn't it copy whatever you give it to a predefined spot in ram and then hands over execution?
Mar 09 14:08:41 <aholler> load;go done
Mar 09 14:10:25 <Kristina> But things like the kernel entry point vary.
Mar 09 14:10:45 <Kristina> You also need to load the kernel binary and do things like zero out the BSS.
Mar 09 14:11:54 <aholler> sorry, I don't anything about what the darwin-kernel does
Mar 09 14:11:59 <Kristina> Oh, I see. I need to make a zImage.
Mar 09 14:12:00 <aholler> +know
Mar 09 14:12:11 <Kristina> Err, uImage.
Mar 09 14:12:29 <aholler> that isn't really needed
Mar 09 14:12:52 <Kristina> Darwin needs boot args as well as a "special" device tree.
Mar 09 14:14:02 <aholler> the non-elf term get's more special ;)
Mar 09 14:16:27 <Kristina> I see. I need something like cmd_elf.
Mar 09 14:20:06 <Kristina> This doesn't look that hard.
Mar 09 16:17:05 <_av500_> Kristina: you can always write a wrapper around your kernel
Mar 09 16:17:11 <_av500_> as dm8tbr said, uboot loads a binary and calls it
Mar 09 17:01:15 <mranostay> morning!
Mar 09 17:09:47 <emeb_mac> moaning
Mar 09 17:12:00 <dm8tbr> mooo
Mar 09 17:13:05 <emeb_mac> mourning
Mar 09 17:14:20 <mranostay> trolls!
Mar 09 17:14:38 * mranostay so should be hungover
Mar 09 17:22:46 <mranostay> dm8tbr: watch where you are mooing!
Mar 09 17:23:21 * dm8tbr mooooons mranostay 
Mar 09 17:23:31 <dm8tbr> bbl, sauna
Mar 09 17:26:58 <mranostay> cows don't sauna
Mar 09 17:27:22 <ogra_> do trolls ?
Mar 09 17:50:15 <jrawson> So I'm on a project that's trying to use a beagleboard-xM, and it kinda appears that the 4 port USB hub just goes away. Known problem? Solution? My problem? Halp?
Mar 09 17:53:51 <dm8tbr> jrawson: usb can be wonky at times. any messages from the kernel?
Mar 09 17:54:01 <dm8tbr> jrawson: a lot of usb or ethernet traffic?
Mar 09 17:56:14 <jrawson> We're trying to power it from a battery pack, and tried to do load testing on it so we plugged in a USB wifi dongle, keyboard, mouse, and breadboarded fan to to increase load. The ethernet plug wasn't plugged in.
Mar 09 17:56:45 <jrawson> The wifi module could have caused it, but even after removing the wifi module and rebooting it persisted.
Mar 09 17:57:48 <jrawson> And it has a bunch of messages in dmesg, kinda seems like its disconnecting the whole hub and then enumerating a whole slew of devices that I don't really think exist.
Mar 09 17:58:44 <jrawson> We've only had the thing for about 2 weeks, and it was fine before, but we're now getting to the point where we have enough equipment to start using the thing so I think saying "We just got it" isn't really a lie.
Mar 09 17:59:27 <jrawson> I've been having issues trying to roll an angstrom distribution from their online builder also, but I think I'll get that one after playing with it enough.
Mar 09 18:00:25 <dm8tbr> can you elaborate on the 'battery pack'?
Mar 09 18:02:19 <jrawson> We looked around for something to meet our power needs, 5V 3A, and found this thing: http://www.amazon.com/Lightning-Sensation-Thunderbolt-connectors-customized/dp/B009USAJCC
Mar 09 18:03:14 <jrawson> Seemed to work, well, still seems to work. The power source doesn't seem to matter since we started also doing tests with a bench power supply.
Mar 09 18:03:21 <jrawson> With the same results.
Mar 09 18:03:32 <dm8tbr> hmm, ok
Mar 09 18:04:07 <dm8tbr> which kernel is this running?
Mar 09 18:04:57 <jrawson> The one that came with it, it's a rev C board, looks like a 2.32 thing, but let me plug in the flash drive and make sure.
Mar 09 18:05:41 <jrawson> I've been trying to get a new roll of angstrom working on a separate 4GB card, but things just aren't right when I do, so for testing we've just been using the stock one.
Mar 09 18:06:39 <dm8tbr> it might be that usb is more stable on a newer/different kernel
Mar 09 18:07:00 <dm8tbr> I never worked with an XM itself, so not sure
Mar 09 18:07:43 <jrawson> 2.6.32 looks like.
Mar 09 18:08:04 * jrawson forgot the 6. %)
Mar 09 18:08:41 * jrawson kinda wants to just run gentoo on the thing, but isn't sure how that would work out and time is a factor in our project.
Mar 09 18:09:38 <aholler> userland istn' of interest, gentoo runs just fine
Mar 09 18:09:52 <aholler> but there are large differences in which kernel you are using
Mar 09 18:10:03 <jrawson> And you load the kernel with uboot still or does it support grub?
Mar 09 18:10:21 <dm8tbr> grub is x86 only
Mar 09 18:10:31 <jrawson> So that's why uboot then.
Mar 09 18:18:08 <jrawson> aholler: Only reason why I say gentoo is because if I'm going to roll my own kernel that's where my mind goes. Do you have a recommendation for which kernel we should start with?
Mar 09 18:18:57 <aholler> I'm using 3.2.x (.40 currently) from the mainline stable tree
Mar 09 18:19:31 <jrawson> And which beagleboard are you using that with?
Mar 09 18:22:23 <_av500_> you dont need gentoo to compile your own kernel
Mar 09 18:22:48 <_av500_> simple "make" will do
Mar 09 18:23:38 <jrawson> I know, like I said that's just where my mind goes. I run a gentoo server. Haven't done much embedded development.
Mar 09 18:23:54 * jrawson feels dumb now.
Mar 09 18:25:43 <aholler> a beagleboard classic c4
Mar 09 18:27:06 <_av500_> jrawson: so your usb issues persist?
Mar 09 18:27:15 <_av500_> pastebin some dmesg of the error
Mar 09 18:33:17 <jrawson> _av500_: I apparently have to reproduce it. I thought I could capture the logs on the flash, mount it then read them later. Apparently they're all gone.
Mar 09 18:34:18 * jrawson is making noob mistakes on a new platform to him. I appreciate the help.
Mar 09 18:35:55 <jrawson> _av500_: And yes, it persisted across resets of the device, both hitting the reset button and cutting power at the bench.
Mar 09 18:43:54 <woglinde> musb
Mar 09 18:43:57 <woglinde> we love you
Mar 09 18:44:51 <dm8tbr> actually that should be ehci?
Mar 09 18:45:08 <aholler> yes
Mar 09 18:45:40 <_av500_> dm8tbr: ehci has issues too
Mar 09 18:45:47 <dm8tbr> sure, I know
Mar 09 18:46:17 <aholler> that's why I still at 3.2.x
Mar 09 18:46:31 <_av500_> aholler: even there
Mar 09 18:48:02 <mranostay> woglinde: love to hate
Mar 09 18:53:56 <jrawson> _av500_: *sigh* its not cooperating now. Its really weird. I'll fiddle with it and ask again later.
Mar 09 18:54:02 <jrawson> Thanks for the help everybody.
Mar 09 18:54:42 <_av500_> jrawson: np
Mar 09 19:20:23 <_av500_> how do I tell Linux that ttyUSB1 is a serial mouse?
Mar 09 19:25:53 <aholler> omg
Mar 09 19:29:10 <_av500_> omg: command not found
Mar 09 19:29:23 <_av500_> aholler: wanted to show the kid how a trackball works
Mar 09 19:29:34 <_av500_> and the only one I have here is aserial
Mar 09 19:29:42 <woglinde> haha
Mar 09 19:29:45 <_av500_> I bet in wondows it works
Mar 09 19:29:52 <_av500_> windows too
Mar 09 19:30:05 <_av500_> arf
Mar 09 19:30:10 <_av500_> it says "atari ST"
Mar 09 19:30:18 <_av500_> I guess thta ont work :)
Mar 09 19:30:21 <_av500_> +w
Mar 09 19:30:31 <aholler> I bet it would work in windows too, there is no autodetection for serial stuff
Mar 09 19:30:39 <_av500_> aholler: there is
Mar 09 19:30:47 <_av500_> drives my ham radio freind crazy
Mar 09 19:31:06 <jrawson> I think that's the wrong device for a mouse.
Mar 09 19:31:22 <aholler> maybe at boot up, but not at hotplug-up
Mar 09 19:32:16 <aholler> at least I never seen some mysterious characters at a serial port
Mar 09 19:32:56 <_av500_> aholler: https://plus.google.com/100242854243155306943/posts/Z4hS7PRaBTG
Mar 09 19:33:58 <aholler> haha, modem-manager
Mar 09 19:34:11 <woglinde> kill it
Mar 09 19:35:33 <aholler> it"s like those omap-serial patches between 3.2 and 3.3: all your serial belong to us :)
Mar 09 19:37:15 <_av500_> aholler: you know, some people on lkml proposed to probe for i2c devices....
Mar 09 19:37:24 <_av500_> cant be so hard, can it
Mar 09 19:37:52 <aholler> i"ve added the suggestion to modify it, but they just come up with totally stupid arguments
Mar 09 19:38:35 <aholler> i didn"t care much for probing or not, probing just worked the best here.
Mar 09 19:38:59 <aholler> and adding e.g. a p to the i2c-address would have been easy
Mar 09 19:40:01 * jrawson 's gut reaction is to write a udev rule to create /dev/mouse0 for the mouse device instead of ttyUSB0, which is usually a RS232 adapter in my experience, but all of this is a new world to me.
Mar 09 19:40:03 <aholler> and I never had problems with probing
Mar 09 19:40:24 <aholler> but of course, there are always dumb devices around
Mar 09 19:42:40 <aholler> anyway, the whole discussion wasn"t about probing, it was about totally stupid and dumb reasons
Mar 09 19:43:42 <aholler> and about no,no,no, we had some ugly patch ages ago, I don"t even want to look at yours
Mar 09 19:43:46 <_av500_> aholler: inputattach -ms3 /dev/ttyUSB1
Mar 09 19:43:48 <_av500_> so easy
Mar 09 19:43:49 <_av500_> :)
Mar 09 19:43:55 <_av500_> works with the genius mouse
Mar 09 19:44:54 <woglinde> serial mouse on usb?
Mar 09 19:44:56 <_av500_> yes
Mar 09 19:45:01 <mranostay> _av500_: trolls!
Mar 09 19:45:04 <woglinde> with adapter?
Mar 09 19:45:11 <woglinde> no that was ps2 and usb
Mar 09 19:45:13 <woglinde> hm hm
Mar 09 19:45:27 <_av500_> woglinde: with usb2serial of course
Mar 09 19:47:32 <_av500_> ah, that is part of gpm
Mar 09 19:49:26 <_av500_> oh, that supports my spaceball 3003 too!
Mar 09 19:49:28 <_av500_> nice
Mar 09 19:49:40 <_av500_> can manipulate mouse cursor in 3d
Mar 09 19:49:41 <woglinde> sure
Mar 09 19:49:49 <_av500_> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~snewnham/trueBall/SpaceBall3003.jpg
Mar 09 19:51:25 <aholler> av500: anyway, I've learned again that sending patches to lkml is something gwon up people shouldn"t do, it"s a place for kids to fight against, at least if you don"t belong to some big company. if ou do, you can send everything
Mar 09 19:51:42 <aholler> grown
Mar 09 19:53:16 <_av500_> omg, inputattache is part of the linux console project
Mar 09 19:53:22 <_av500_> which is maintained by esr
Mar 09 19:53:28 * _av500_ slowly steps away
Mar 09 19:53:31 <_av500_> :)
Mar 09 19:53:50 <woglinde> *g*
Mar 09 19:58:35 <_av500_> ah
Mar 09 19:58:59 <_av500_> inpoutattach only forwards the stuff to the kernel, spaceball support is in kernel
Mar 09 19:59:10 <_av500_> drivers/input/joystick/spaceball.c
Mar 09 20:00:11 <aholler> and maybe I should send a patch to remove probing from the i2c-subsystem, just to troll the kiddies
Mar 09 20:17:29 <mranostay> aholler: churn!
Mar 09 20:49:13 * mranostay spots a davest 
Mar 09 20:49:31 <woglinde> trools
Mar 09 20:49:42 <davest> mranostay: shhhh
Mar 09 20:51:58 * mranostay loads up his FRI2
Mar 09 21:06:14 <ka6sox> you woke him up mranostay
Mar 09 21:06:24 <ka6sox> I'm hoping I get one of those FRI2's :D
Mar 09 21:13:35 <mranostay> ka6sox: didn't go to Yoctopus Day?
Mar 09 21:18:09 <ka6sox> not this year...LAST year....
Mar 09 21:23:26 <mranostay> ka6sox: you should be on the list
Mar 09 21:23:30 <mranostay> did you leave early?
Mar 09 21:37:31 <ka6sox> mranostay, I think I am, and no I didn't leave "early"
Mar 09 21:37:48 <ka6sox> this one I *did* leave early because I had to speak @ SCaLE Friday.
Mar 09 21:42:31 <_av500_> aholler: I just tried, as soon as you install FTDI drivers in XP, it autodetects a serial mouse :)
Mar 09 21:42:47 <_av500_> some OSs do get it right!
Mar 09 21:44:28 <aholler> xp is old enough
Mar 09 21:45:27 <_av500_> I'll try 7 next
Mar 09 21:46:12 <Kristina> Ugh, had to write an entry point for my kernel that could start stuff with the mmu disabled.
Mar 09 21:46:15 <Kristina> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2205576
Mar 09 21:46:22 <Kristina> So I can boot it with uboot.
Mar 09 21:46:37 <Kristina> :(
Mar 09 21:48:18 <_av500_> so your kernel assumes MMU enabled?
Mar 09 21:48:27 <_av500_> with what mapping?
Mar 09 21:49:37 <Kristina> _av500_: The old entry point (_start, at the bottom) was called with the MMU enabled an the temp mapping initialized.
Mar 09 21:49:47 <_av500_> A+ for creative labels
Mar 09 21:49:57 <_av500_> called by whom?
Mar 09 21:50:18 <_av500_> git.kernel.org[0: 23.21.224.150]: errno=Connection timed out
Mar 09 21:50:21 <_av500_> gah
Mar 09 21:50:43 <Kristina> _av500_: BootKit (my boot instrumentation)
Mar 09 21:50:57 <_av500_> then make uboot load bootkit
Mar 09 21:51:12 <Kristina> But I figured making my kernel bootable by uBoot straight away would also be nice.
Mar 09 21:51:21 <_av500_> yes
Mar 09 21:51:34 <Kristina> _av500_: BootKit actually has omap support, it can act as the preliminary and secondary bootloader.
Mar 09 21:51:48 <Kristina> But no filesystem support, and I can't be bothered to code it right now.
Mar 09 21:52:16 <_av500_> there are not enough botloaders in the world...
Mar 09 21:52:25 <Kristina> BootKit is great.
Mar 09 21:52:35 <Kristina> Inspired by iBoot.
Mar 09 21:53:14 <Kristina> It has threading, a graphical console, HFS+ support, an XML parser and all sorts of other stuff.
Mar 09 21:53:27 <_av500_> email?
Mar 09 21:53:39 <Kristina> _av500_: No, but it does have a TCP stack :)
Mar 09 21:53:49 <_av500_> make it have email
Mar 09 21:53:54 <_av500_> then it will be done
Mar 09 21:54:13 <Kristina> Laugh all you want, I love my bootloader.
Mar 09 21:54:31 <_av500_> sure
Mar 09 21:54:35 <_av500_> I love my kids too
Mar 09 21:55:27 <Kristina> MY CATS ARE MY BABIES.
Mar 09 21:56:56 <Kristina> Hm, so now I need to do something about device trees.
Mar 09 21:57:11 <Kristina> uBoot has support for FDTs.
Mar 09 21:57:25 <Kristina> Which are of course incompatible with Apple Device Trees.
Mar 09 21:59:07 <_av500_> cant you append them to the kernel?
Mar 09 21:59:16 <_av500_> so you just have one file to load?
Mar 09 21:59:41 <Kristina> Well, the bootloader has to patch the DT.
Mar 09 21:59:56 <Kristina> BootKit compiles the DT. iBoot patches a compiled DT.
Mar 09 22:00:10 <_av500_> yes, these inssane concepts exist
Mar 09 22:01:05 <Kristina> What's wrong with compiled device trees? :(
Mar 09 22:01:14 <_av500_> nothing
Mar 09 22:01:50 <_av500_> the bootloader messing with them is
Mar 09 22:01:59 <biot> prpplague: ping
Mar 09 22:02:12 <Kristina> For some reason, I doubt that I'm ever going to get iOS running on Omap3.
Mar 09 22:02:39 <_av500_> if the reason is that uboot does not speak apple DT, thats invalid
Mar 09 22:02:53 <_av500_> omap3 DT will not change, make a fixed one and be done
Mar 09 22:03:25 <Kristina> The reason for that is that there is an insane amount of drivers used by frameworks like Celestial/Fig.
Mar 09 22:03:34 <Kristina> The DT thing is not a big issue.
Mar 09 22:03:59 <Kristina> I can just compile the DT and copy and paste the patcher from the other boot friends.
Mar 09 22:04:35 <_av500_> so what is that fig thing?
Mar 09 22:04:51 <Kristina> Oh, it's a media framework on iOS.
Mar 09 22:04:59 <_av500_> except for a fig tree as google suggests
Mar 09 22:05:01 <_av500_> ah
Mar 09 22:05:28 <Kristina> _av500_: Well, Fig is an internal prefix used for Celestial components. It's a play on the Celeste Fig tree.
Mar 09 22:06:01 <_av500_> I guessed that much by now :)
Mar 09 22:06:43 <Kristina> I didn't actually know that, I found that out from one of the engineers who worked on the media stuff.
Mar 09 22:06:57 <Kristina> I thought Fig was an abbreviation.
Mar 09 22:11:00 <Kristina> _av500_: The reason for all the bootloader patching insanity is that XNU was originally brought up on PPC where the firmware actually compiled the DeviceTree at boot using the hardware description tables. So the DT was used to pass a lot of info to the kernel, like the addresses of preloaded kernel extensions.
Mar 09 22:11:17 <Kristina> It was abused for all sorts of non-hardware-description related things.
Mar 09 22:12:06 <Kristina> Which made sense on a platform where all hardware was described in a unified way.
Mar 09 22:16:12 <Kristina> XNU is highly modular.
Mar 09 22:16:48 <Kristina> Like on Linux, you don't really have the concept of boot-time kernel extensions. They're either compiled in, or loaded as kmods.
Mar 09 22:17:56 <Kristina> While on XNU, the actual kernel image is just the kernel image.
Mar 09 22:17:59 <_av500_> well, I guess one could shoehorn boot time module loading in
Mar 09 22:18:45 <Kristina> In XNU, kernel modules are either: prelinked, loaded at boot time or loaded by userland.
Mar 09 22:18:48 <_av500_> damn, this Genius mouse is beyond fixing, rollers have corroded
Mar 09 22:20:06 <Kristina> XNU has amazing interprocess communication functionality, thanks to mach.
Mar 09 22:20:48 <Kristina> There are a lot of things that I like about XNU.
Mar 09 22:21:02 <Kristina> It has a lot of the things that I would like Linux to have.
Mar 09 22:21:19 <_av500_> send patches :)
Mar 09 22:21:53 <Kristina> _av500_: some of the core design ideas behind xnu and mach go against Linus' ideas and he has strongly expressed that.
Mar 09 22:22:03 <_av500_> I know
Mar 09 22:22:19 <Kristina> xnu is also significantly slower than linux (when you look at the raw kernel performance)
Mar 09 22:22:37 <_av500_> I shook hands with Mr. microkernel two weeks ago
Mar 09 22:22:47 <Kristina> Who would that be?
Mar 09 22:23:11 <_av500_> the "Linux is oboslete" guy, Mr. Tananbaum
Mar 09 22:23:31 <Kristina> People don't really get how nice xnu is until they try it.
Mar 09 22:24:10 <_av500_> on my iphone?
Mar 09 22:24:46 <Kristina> _av500_: You don't really see XNU on your phone :)
Mar 09 22:25:00 <Kristina> As far as you are concerned, it might as well be running Linux.
Mar 09 22:25:02 <_av500_> then I guess I dont see its "niceness" either :)
Mar 09 22:28:51 <Kristina> iOS is amazing.
Mar 09 22:29:14 <Kristina> In terms of the design that goes behind it, nothing ever came close.
Mar 09 22:29:55 <woglinde> av500 where did you meet tannbaum?
Mar 09 22:30:16 <Kristina> It's sad that Android went the opposite way and became a complete mess of an OS.
Mar 09 22:30:36 <woglinde> kernel or userland?
Mar 09 22:31:08 <Kristina> Well, Linux is just Linux. It's there. It works.
Mar 09 22:31:13 <Kristina> The Android userland is terrible.
Mar 09 22:31:17 <Kristina> From the ground up.
Mar 09 22:31:37 <Kristina> The design decisions that went into Android are terrible.
Mar 09 22:31:54 <woglinde> hm it works
Mar 09 22:31:59 <woglinde> thats whats matter
Mar 09 22:32:00 <Kristina> I mean, as a crazy thesis project, Dalvik may have been a good idea.
Mar 09 22:32:39 <woglinde> and that I can modify it
Mar 09 22:32:52 <woglinde> can not do this with ios
Mar 09 22:34:40 <Kristina> Having something like an open foundation for an open iOS would be cool.
Mar 09 22:34:56 <Kristina> I had this idea for quite some time but never got to it.
Mar 09 22:35:03 <Kristina> Some day ...
Mar 09 22:35:27 <_av500_> what for? ios userland is all closed
Mar 09 22:36:04 <Kristina> The main two components of iOS are UIKit and CA.
Mar 09 22:37:01 <Kristina> Foundation/CoreFoundation are open. libSystem is open. libObjC is open.
Mar 09 22:38:00 <_av500_> so people will use that to write their own apps?
Mar 09 22:38:39 <_av500_> the appeal of android is thta you git clone, make and you have a 95% functional build
Mar 09 22:38:54 <_av500_> missing only a few google apps
Mar 09 22:40:49 <woglinde> av500 repo you mean
Mar 09 22:41:10 <_av500_> well, yes
Mar 09 22:42:07 <Kristina> _av500_: Basically, iOS consists of two "components".
Mar 09 22:42:49 <Kristina> The front end stuff (ish) and the "Core Technologies".
Mar 09 22:44:14 <Kristina> Things like QuartzCore, libsystem, libdispatch, Foundation/CoreFoundation, IOSurface. IOMFB, UIKit would go under the first group.
Mar 09 22:45:04 <Kristina> These components are significant and they sort of provide a facade for the OS.
Mar 09 22:45:18 <Kristina> Apps like Facebook only rely on those bits.
Mar 09 22:45:26 <Kristina> Then you have the "Core Technologies".
Mar 09 22:45:43 <Kristina> CoreAudio, CoreMedia, Celestial, CoreVideo etc.
Mar 09 22:46:30 <Kristina> The second group would be categorized under "even if you had the sourced, they would still be a bitch to port".
Mar 09 22:46:36 <Kristina> sources*
Mar 09 22:48:14 <woglinde> ieehks phoronix again
Mar 09 22:48:15 <woglinde> Building Linux With LLVM/Clang Excites The Embedded World
Mar 09 22:48:44 <woglinde> av500 you are exicted by clang?
Mar 09 22:48:49 <Kristina> I am!
Mar 09 22:49:28 <Kristina> iOS 1.0 was designed by a small team. It is obvious from looking at it.
Mar 09 22:49:39 <Kristina> iOS 5.0 was designed by hundreds of people.
Mar 09 22:50:03 <woglinde> why they need now hundreds people?
Mar 09 22:50:15 <woglinde> and why they need to desing the architecure new
Mar 09 22:50:57 <Kristina> What I meant is, the number of people working on iOS increased dramatically from 1.0 to 5.0.
Mar 09 22:51:19 <woglinde> and?
Mar 09 22:51:28 <woglinde> mom
Mar 09 22:51:39 <woglinde> architects or programmers
Mar 09 22:52:02 <woglinde> kernelland or userspace
Mar 09 22:52:15 <Kristina> Everything. There is even a dedicated team for working on libm.
Mar 09 22:52:47 <woglinde> and what is telling me that or what should I learn from this
Mar 09 22:52:56 <Kristina> Nothing.
Mar 09 22:53:18 <woglinde> and why do I need a team on libm
Mar 09 22:53:31 <woglinde> arm assembler do make it 1% faster?
Mar 09 22:54:04 <Kristina> Actually, it's around 7%.
Mar 09 22:54:28 <woglinde> numbercrunching iphone
Mar 09 22:54:31 <woglinde> yeah
Mar 09 22:54:47 <Kristina> Well, libm is used for all sorts of stuff.
Mar 09 22:55:26 <woglinde> hm how often do I need sqrt
Mar 09 22:55:57 <_av500_> woglinde: I am not excited by anything
Mar 09 22:56:01 <_av500_> so not even by clang
Mar 09 22:56:11 <Kristina> Well, you might not need it that often. A game engine might, though.
Mar 09 22:56:13 <woglinde> hm anyway my wife had the evil look, good nite
Mar 09 22:56:58 <_av500_> good luck
Mar 09 22:59:43 <_av500_> Kristina: leaving the ios strcture aside, what good is your potential foundation
Mar 09 22:59:52 <_av500_> people can already write apps for ios
Mar 09 23:01:14 <Kristina> Leaving the iOS structure aside, there isn't much difference.
Mar 09 23:01:49 <Kristina> This conversation is making me very sad for some reason.
Mar 09 23:02:34 <_av500_> didnt mean to make you sad
Mar 09 23:03:25 <_av500_> ios might be beatiful, but as long as it is locked away in iStuff,  it wont matter
Mar 09 23:07:30 <Kristina> :'(
Mar 09 23:09:14 <_av500_> oh gee
Mar 09 23:09:25 <_av500_> milk and a cookie?
Mar 09 23:09:30 <Kristina> I feel utterly pointless now.
Mar 09 23:09:45 <_av500_> nah, dont listen to what I say
Mar 09 23:09:49 <_av500_> I mgiht be all wrong
Mar 09 23:09:58 <_av500_> after all, Im just a nick on some irc channel
Mar 09 23:10:22 <Kristina> You are right. But I don't like the reality of things. It makes me sad.
Mar 09 23:10:33 <Kristina> So I pretend that the things I do have a point.
Mar 10 00:42:50 <mranostay> another davest sighting
Mar 10 00:58:12 <Dave77> is it possible to output sound on the NG beaglebone via header?
Mar 10 00:58:36 <Toneloc> yeah, you could use a piezo
Mar 10 00:59:46 <Dave77> what about mp3 playback?  or do I need more expensive beagle for audio out?
Mar 10 01:00:10 <Toneloc> Dave77- just used my beaglebone for the first time today
Mar 10 01:00:16 <Toneloc> it's interesting
Mar 10 01:00:28 <Toneloc> its possible
Mar 10 01:00:37 <Toneloc> but easier to do .wav playback
Mar 10 01:00:54 * mranostay looks at schematics
Mar 10 01:01:16 <Dave77> just saw about the new beagle and was interested also.   is beagle 3.3v logic?
Mar 10 01:01:32 <mranostay> yeah
Mar 10 01:01:35 <Toneloc> hmm, that I don't know
Mar 10 01:01:38 <mranostay> bone yes
Mar 10 01:04:40 <mranostay> Dave77: HDMI audio not good enough for you?
Mar 10 01:06:52 <Dave77> only have DVI monitor..
Mar 10 01:07:52 <ka6sox> mranostay, HDMI audio doesn't work.....YET...
Mar 10 01:09:02 <mranostay> ka6sox: surprise! :)
Mar 10 01:11:51 <ka6sox> . . .
Mar 10 01:12:07 <mranostay> ka6sox: does the audio cape still not work btw? :)
Mar 10 01:12:23 <ka6sox> oh I think the DVI/Audio one does...
Mar 10 01:12:25 <ka6sox> just not HDMI
Mar 10 01:12:55 <ka6sox> so far I've found 4 wrong things...
Mar 10 01:13:03 <ka6sox> and its still not working...
Mar 10 01:14:58 <mranostay> maybe two bald engineers can fix everything
Mar 10 01:15:23 <ka6sox> am I now BALD?
Mar 10 01:23:32 <ka6sox> keep rubbing it in mranostay
Mar 10 01:27:42 <mranostay> what did i do? :)
Mar 10 01:45:36 <prpplague> biot: pong
Mar 10 01:48:18 <mranostay> biot: run!
Mar 10 01:52:50 <ka6sox> biot can run...but not hide!
Mar 10 01:59:19 <prpplague> jkridner: omg, that is sooo disgusting, you had to post it.....didnt you?
Mar 10 01:59:36 <mranostay> what is?
Mar 10 01:59:39 <jkridner> naturally.
Mar 10 01:59:43 <prpplague> mranostay: http://youtu.be/p1J5sj9Xhjo
Mar 10 01:59:45 <jkridner> I didn't mean to put it on G+
Mar 10 01:59:57 <jkridner> but, whatever
Mar 10 02:00:50 * prpplague tries to wipe the blood from his eyes
Mar 10 02:00:53 <prpplague> jkridner: sooo
Mar 10 02:01:03 <prpplague> jkridner: the question is who is in the beagle suit....
Mar 10 02:01:23 <jkridner> well, that would defeat the purpose of the suit, wouldn't it. :)
Mar 10 02:01:58 <jkridner> you don't ask who is wearing that Mickey Mouse costume at Disneyland, do you?
Mar 10 02:02:42 <prpplague> jkridner: we all know the folks at Disneyland are people on the sex offender lists.... no real question there...
Mar 10 02:03:23 <jkridner> as long as the costume is *ON*, we are all safe.
Mar 10 02:04:33 <prpplague> hehe
Mar 10 02:07:51 <prpplague> hmmm - as my grandfather would have said... "it's about to come a tird floater rain storm" - http://i.imwx.com//web/radar/us_dfw_closeradar_plus_usen.jpg
Mar 10 02:07:51 <mranostay> hehe
Mar 10 02:32:41 <ka6sox> I am convinced either I am blind or there isn't a current way that the 24.576Mhz Oscillator is being controlled :P
Mar 10 02:38:19 <mrpackethead> blind.
Mar 10 02:45:17 <mranostay> ka6sox: flog the hw guys
Mar 10 02:45:32 <ka6sox> mranostay, I am!
Mar 10 02:45:45 <ka6sox> its just my arm isn't long enough to reach...
Mar 10 02:46:14 <ka6sox> okay...the notes say if you want to disable this then GPIO1_27 is your pin to do so :P
Mar 10 02:46:27 <ka6sox> lets hope pinmux doesn't do something wierd.
Mar 10 02:52:20 <ka6sox> guess I should write a bonescript for this...make darned sure it doesnt' go do something nasty.
Mar 10 02:53:53 <mranostay> ka6sox: it is the weekend we do not talk about javascript on the weekend
Mar 10 02:54:05 <mrpackethead> or ubuntu
Mar 10 02:54:11 <ka6sox> are bonescripts Javascript?
Mar 10 02:54:16 <mrpackethead> or andriod
Mar 10 02:56:43 <mranostay> ka6sox: yeah
Mar 10 02:57:02 <mranostay> hipsters love javascript :P
Mar 10 02:59:41 * ka6sox slowly backs away and asks his 11yr old to write the script for him...
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Mar 10 02:59:58 2013