**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Aug 26 02:59:58 2013 Aug 26 03:57:45 hello Aug 26 05:00:08 mrpackethead: kiwi dude Aug 26 05:00:20 mranostay: oracle dude Aug 26 05:00:34 all americans are the enemy from now utill end of racing Aug 26 05:00:58 oracle? Aug 26 05:22:10 is this a sailing thing? Aug 26 06:12:07 whats sailing? Aug 26 06:12:15 oh where they put up rags on sticks? Aug 26 07:29:21 hi Aug 26 07:29:31 i have a question Aug 26 07:29:37 anyone there ? Aug 26 07:30:07 hey Aug 26 07:30:17 anyone ? Aug 26 07:30:23 just ask. i f somebody knows, you get an answer. if you don't get an answer, nobody knops. Aug 26 07:30:44 i want to boot ubuntu in my beagleboard-xM Aug 26 07:31:01 i installed the kernel image on my sdcard Aug 26 07:31:23 and downloaded the ubuntu 12.10 on my beagleboard using ethernet Aug 26 07:31:33 but m unable to see it in GUI form Aug 26 07:31:44 can anyone help me with this ???? Aug 26 07:33:46 no, because you won't be patient enough for an answer... Aug 26 07:35:13 :] Aug 26 07:55:24 If i wanted to start playing with my bbb should I start with the base distro or spend some time moving another onto it? Aug 26 08:03:49 Moving from using debian/arch/ubuntu for desktop development what distro would you recommend for the BBB? Aug 26 08:06:10 SysEngr: for running on your workstation or on the bbb? Aug 26 08:06:19 hi Aug 26 08:06:22 on the bbb Aug 26 08:06:28 i usually run those 3 on workstations Aug 26 08:06:54 m unable to view my ubuntu GUI on beagleboard-xM Aug 26 08:06:56 help me pls Aug 26 08:07:06 SysEngr: I'd recommend using the distro that comes with the BBB, that still has the best hw support Aug 26 08:07:21 kuku: try asking on the ubuntu channels Aug 26 08:08:00 but m trying ubuntu on beagle board, so i think it will be the question of this channel Aug 26 08:08:32 ubuntu is not supported by beagleboard.org nor circuitco Aug 26 08:08:45 nor is the beaglebone supported by ubuntu Aug 26 08:08:54 so you'd have to figure it out yourself Aug 26 08:11:35 Koen: dumb question here. What is the correct cmd to reference a users name at the begining of a statement. Aug 26 08:17:18 SysEngr: I don't get your question, could you rephrase? Aug 26 08:18:00 in IRC you are formally replying to me by preceding your statement with my username 'SysEngr:....' Aug 26 08:18:14 What command does that Aug 26 08:18:40 dunno, I just type it :) Aug 26 08:18:41 most irc clients do that by tab-complete Aug 26 08:18:54 koen: gotcha Aug 26 08:19:42 New to IRC so just trying to grasp quickly the commands and etiquette. Aug 26 08:20:30 :) Aug 26 08:20:46 a good read once in a while: Aug 26 08:21:04 http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Aug 26 08:22:17 thanks Aug 26 08:26:37 hi Aug 26 08:26:38 hi Aug 26 08:56:55 koen: for a dual Y drive, you'll need to tension the belts axactly the same no? in order to get the same effective number of teeth on both sides Aug 26 09:03:23 av500: correct Aug 26 09:03:45 koen: their wiki does not mention that :) Aug 26 09:03:57 the belts don't really stretch, so the "exactly" is pretty easy to do Aug 26 09:04:03 ah Aug 26 09:04:12 thought they were rubbery :) Aug 26 09:04:17 but then, thats not good Aug 26 09:04:20 and you can cheat by treating it as an instrument Aug 26 09:04:39 and tune the sound coming of the belts :) Aug 26 09:04:44 right Aug 26 09:05:06 I'll put some belts on my bass next Aug 26 09:05:18 hehe today's xkcd: "why aren't economists rich ?" Aug 26 09:19:04 because they know too much Aug 26 09:40:02 Hi! I am a bit confused. Does the Angstrom BBB image make use of the BBB FPU? On the Ubuntu images I see they are armhf but I do not see any info for the Angstrom :-( Aug 26 09:44:30 Anguel: angstrom uses for the VFP and NEON units where possible Aug 26 09:44:40 Anguel: ubuntu uses only vfp by default Aug 26 09:45:25 Hi there Aug 26 09:47:49 koen: thank you! I also downloaded the angstrom cross toolchain but was confused because it says arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi, I thought it should be arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabihf to support hard floats Aug 26 09:49:02 Anguel: AFAIK compilers do not put float references after the abi Aug 26 09:49:23 Anguel: in their names, i mean Aug 26 09:50:09 Oooh God maybe I finally found the right way to enable I2C1 on the Black w/ 3.8.13 kernel Aug 26 09:50:16 Anguel: there's more than one ABI that uses the hw floatingpoint units Aug 26 09:50:38 Anguel: in the v2012.12 release angstrom uses softfp, which is compatible with everything else Aug 26 09:50:48 Anguel: ubuntu uses hardfp, which is incompatible with everything Aug 26 09:51:02 there's no real life performance difference between the 2 ABIs Aug 26 09:51:35 ignoring the fact that ubuntu doesn't enable NEON by default Aug 26 09:52:21 sorry for my confusion. I think I just need to have floating point math in hw because I know from MCUs that if you do it in sw they are compiled to many instructions instead of a few Aug 26 09:52:36 no Aug 26 09:52:45 softfp also uses the float units Aug 26 09:52:50 its just a different ABI Aug 26 09:53:28 Did you know that there are three types of float implelentation? Aug 26 09:53:49 slow, fast and correct? Aug 26 09:53:54 I see, I tried to understand what ABi practically means but I still don't understand it somehow Aug 26 09:54:10 av500: he said "implementations", not wishes. Aug 26 09:54:38 Anguel: its about where you put the values you pass to a function Aug 26 09:54:57 so soft = correct ? :-) Aug 26 09:55:01 no Aug 26 09:55:10 there is soft soft Aug 26 09:55:11 It all depends on the ARM core capabilties, obviously Aug 26 09:55:16 and soft hard Aug 26 09:55:18 and hard Aug 26 09:55:30 Yep, av500 is correct, that was what I meant Aug 26 09:55:49 soft soft and soft hard share the ABI Aug 26 09:56:11 One is fully sw emulated, one is an in-between, the other is fully dependent on hardware Aug 26 09:56:30 there are 3 popular ABIs for arm: soft, softfp, hardfp Aug 26 09:56:39 the 'fp' ones can use the hardware FP units Aug 26 09:56:46 and I thought that only ubuntu uses the FPU because it is armhf - what a confucion Aug 26 09:56:48 koen, indeed Aug 26 09:57:14 and I say 'can' and not 'will', since it's possible to force it to not use it Aug 26 09:57:16 or partially Aug 26 09:57:25 e.g. only 16 registers for vfp Aug 26 09:57:48 like ubuntu forces NEON to off to make it run on marvell chips without NEON Aug 26 09:58:15 so it looks like angstrom is still the best for the BBB Aug 26 09:58:22 executive summary: don't believe what you read on phoronix Aug 26 09:58:40 in short: don't phoronix Aug 26 09:59:06 hi everybody Aug 26 09:59:11 hey vmayoral Aug 26 09:59:47 Anguel: not really... Aug 26 10:00:00 :-) Aug 26 10:00:47 I come from the MCU world and looks like I have to learn a lot about Linux Aug 26 10:01:09 it's all relative Aug 26 10:01:14 soft soft, hard soft :-) Aug 26 10:01:16 Yeeeah! Did it! Just loading the BB-I2C1 dtbo made the missing i2c device file appear! Aug 26 10:01:17 angstrom has the best support for the hardware on the bone Aug 26 10:01:36 but thanks to TI being so grossly incompetent "best" doesn't mean what you think it means Aug 26 10:01:53 koen: RobertCNelson is working hard to complete support Aug 26 10:02:08 koen: and he's not that far Aug 26 10:02:19 robert is doing the kernel or only the debian-based? Aug 26 10:02:21 LaXiS96: Robert integrates patches from other trees Aug 26 10:02:48 LaXiS96: and robert uses https://github.com/beagleboard/kernel/tree/3.8 Aug 26 10:03:04 LaXiS96: so you get the same kernel in roberts builds and angstrom builds Aug 26 10:03:12 koen: really. what does'nt work under debian? Aug 26 10:03:18 koen: wtf then... didn't know this Aug 26 10:03:30 specificllly what doe'snt work that does work on angstrom Aug 26 10:03:46 mrpackethead: any software created after the last debian release, so that's 2005? Aug 26 10:04:04 lol. Aug 26 10:04:20 mrpackethead: but more seriously, if I download debian from debian.org nothing works Aug 26 10:04:20 so, the stuff we wrote last week, doesnt work? Aug 26 10:04:23 since it won't even boot Aug 26 10:04:31 so i will probably start with angstrom to be on the safe and fast side :-) Aug 26 10:04:45 koen: so use Robert's debian! Aug 26 10:04:52 or is that not debian? Aug 26 10:05:12 not according to the debian terms of use Aug 26 10:05:40 Anguel: don't worry about that... I, as a linux experienced user, switched to Ubuntu after using Angstrom for 2 hours Aug 26 10:06:10 Anguel: mostly because of the systemd init... Aug 26 10:06:13 Anguel: Robert's debian liek builds work very well Aug 26 10:06:22 I have several hundred BBB's running it Aug 26 10:06:25 withotu issue Aug 26 10:06:36 doing real work Aug 26 10:06:42 just saying. Aug 26 10:07:08 but use what works for you Aug 26 10:07:35 so what is the advantage of using angstrom on BBB? does it boot faster? Aug 26 10:07:48 it blinks the cursor faster Aug 26 10:07:54 :-) Aug 26 10:07:57 Anguel: i've asked that question a hudnred tiems Aug 26 10:08:16 mrpackethead: see, with ubuntu you could have asked only fifty times Aug 26 10:08:37 well, koen said it has VFP + NEON, or isn't that noticable at all Aug 26 10:08:57 it depends Aug 26 10:09:10 on what SW you run Aug 26 10:10:57 ok, i need Qt (will run it on a 4" touch display cap) + some USB + some TCP/IP Aug 26 10:11:23 and maybe I am going to show some graphs, thought of using QWT Aug 26 10:11:33 it will depend Aug 26 10:11:43 you can go a long way without float Aug 26 10:13:36 i see that the angstrom cross tollchain is pretty old, March 2011 and it has qt 4.6 Aug 26 10:13:55 is it still ok to use? Aug 26 10:15:28 some people seem to download it and then compile the newer Qt versions if I remember correctly Aug 26 10:15:38 * koen looks at http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/toolchains Aug 26 10:15:43 29-May-2013 Aug 26 10:16:29 I saw that one but was not sure if it is for the BBB, also Qt was missing Aug 26 10:16:59 can I just add latest Qt for that? Aug 26 10:29:34 Anguel: you can surely install it with the package manager or by simply compiling it Aug 26 10:31:05 LaXiS96: Can I install a cross toolchain package using the package manager? Aug 26 10:32:25 Anguel: you mean on a PC or on the BBB? Aug 26 10:34:37 LaXiS96: I was talking about download the latest Angstrom cross toolchain to my Ubuntu Host. Now that toolchain does not have Qt so I will have to add it somehow to the host in order to compile against its libraries. Aug 26 10:35:53 Anguel: If you need Qt on the BBB, why not just compile it directly on the BBB? Aug 26 10:36:28 I want to use Qt Creator on my PC, compile there and just download to the BBB Aug 26 10:36:52 there is a video by derek molloy on youtube describing that Aug 26 10:37:47 but he works with a very old Angstrom cross toolchain and seems to compile against Qt 4.6 which is very old Aug 26 10:41:07 Sorry but in this case I can't help you. I'm not into Qt... Aug 26 10:43:01 no problem, I will look further :-) Aug 26 10:50:13 This might be a dumb question but the BBB documentation keeps mentioning PINS... what can I use these for? I thought these might be for harddisks etc :) Aug 26 10:52:51 pins are connectors to the outside world - actual physical pins. Aug 26 10:53:02 These can be used to interconnect to sensors or actuators. Aug 26 10:53:25 Solenoids, light sensors, gimbal-mounted AK47s or flamethrowers. Aug 26 10:54:25 SpeedEvil: You forgot dildos Aug 26 11:17:50 dostoyevsky: PINS is the phisical pin on the AM3359 package, referenced by a row letter and column number Aug 26 11:18:08 *physical, anyway Aug 26 11:18:34 It's not something you need in the software land Aug 26 11:18:57 balls might be a better word, since it's a BGA Aug 26 11:19:26 koen: except in irc maybe Aug 26 11:22:13 right Aug 26 11:22:22 as evidenced by the dildo comment above :) Aug 26 11:23:18 do you now if angstrom or ubunu support any GPU acceleration? or is this only supported when using the TI SDK? Aug 26 11:25:13 there is no support for the GPU with using 3.8 or newer kernels Aug 26 11:25:44 wget http://archlinuxarm.org/os/omap/BeagleBone-bootloader.tar.gz -> 404 Not Found :-( Aug 26 11:26:54 koen: interesting, and what is the reason? Aug 26 11:30:50 Anguel: the SGX is not supported yet because developers are working on getting it to work. Aug 26 11:31:52 I see, I thought the reason was that TI was using older kernels Aug 26 11:32:10 koen: Let it be BGA or LGA, it will always be some kind of physical "pin" Aug 26 11:33:10 LaXiS96: TI tends to change the word for it, in OMAP3 times it was 'ball', in am335x times it's 'PIN' Aug 26 11:33:21 consistency is not easily found in TI docs Aug 26 11:33:55 as evidenced by the inability to use fortran numbering consistenly in TRMs Aug 26 11:34:24 koen: I think it's difficult to maintain consistency on a 5000-page datasheets... Aug 26 11:36:40 I'd think that "start counting at 0" wouldn't be that hard to be consistent with Aug 26 11:37:23 for the same IP blocks in the chip Aug 26 11:37:46 so i2c1 is i2c2 in the trm but i2c1 in linux Aug 26 11:38:01 unless you use omap4, then it's i2c1 everywhere Aug 26 11:41:07 Wow, it's the issue I had recently on the BBB... Well now it's just a bit ok since I2C0 is /dev/i2c-0, I2C2 is /dev/i2c-1 and I2C1 is (if enabled with a DTO) /dev/i2c-2...) Aug 26 11:41:30 these are small concerns compared to TIs cortex-m. Some manager decided to cancel all cortex-m3 before TI had a production ready cortex-m4. customers were going crazy. Aug 26 11:41:33 For "just a bit ok" i mean that it works but it does not make sense Aug 26 11:45:08 LaXiS96: right, that's the additional problem when using DT: sequention numbering of busses based on when you instatiate them Aug 26 11:45:36 Indeed Aug 26 11:54:24 LaXiS96: datasheets are fun. Aug 26 11:54:42 SpeedEvil: you said it. Aug 26 11:54:48 LaXiS96: Somewhere i've gotten about ten variants of the 3610 (?) datasheet. Aug 26 11:55:15 All of them have subtle differences - and if you want to know about all of the details of the USB peripheral - you need to read them all Aug 26 11:55:28 As information appears or dissapears seemingly at random. Aug 26 11:55:34 LOL Aug 26 11:56:09 * SpeedEvil was involved in trying to get USB host working on the n900 (successfully through mostly the effort of others) despite nokia saying it couldn't work. Aug 26 11:56:43 and it saved the N900! :) Aug 26 11:56:57 :/ Aug 26 11:57:02 * SpeedEvil looks at his n950. Aug 26 11:57:08 well TI was famous for that Aug 26 11:57:12 and still is Aug 26 11:57:20 * SpeedEvil looks at his Jolla device. Aug 26 11:57:21 just not in the mobile SoC business Aug 26 11:57:25 * av500 looks at his n950 Aug 26 11:57:36 * dm8tbr looks at two N950 on his desk Aug 26 11:57:50 * av500 looks at $RANDOMSUPERAWESOME Aug 26 11:57:59 $secretstuff Aug 26 11:58:07 $NSA Aug 26 11:58:44 I think I possibly have the most open phone. Aug 26 11:58:49 the openmoko GTA01. Aug 26 11:59:10 Circuit diagrams, leaked documents on the mobile phone part, no GPU blobs. Aug 26 11:59:44 and you can even make a phone calls! Aug 26 11:59:47 * SpeedEvil sighs at openmokos screwups. Aug 26 12:00:10 SpeedEvil: but according to doc they are baaaaaack and will run maemo5! Aug 26 12:00:21 err - no. Aug 26 12:00:28 GTA04 has _nothing_ to do with openmok Aug 26 12:00:43 hi guys, i try to open /sys/class/leds/beaglebone:green:usr3/brightness file from a c++ application, but it cant open it, it needs some special rights or something since it gives me error? Aug 26 12:01:14 norbi, really ?! Aug 26 12:01:19 this is the code: http://pastebin.com/RCWj3cFy Aug 26 12:01:29 m_billybob: ... yea really, im that noob Aug 26 12:01:37 norbi you are away of linux file / folder permissions? Aug 26 12:01:41 aware* Aug 26 12:01:53 m_billybob: somehow Aug 26 12:01:54 hint: strerror() Aug 26 12:02:10 av500: thx Aug 26 12:02:21 or don't asign, but compare :p Aug 26 12:02:27 =NULL vs ==NULL Aug 26 12:02:33 small diff, big impact... Aug 26 12:04:53 Has anyone used the A5 and wasn't able to boot archlinux-arch from SD card? Aug 26 12:04:55 ynezz: lol, true Aug 26 12:04:59 ynezz: omg :P Aug 26 12:05:08 ansi style errors Aug 26 12:05:38 what's an A5? Aug 26 12:05:41 I can boot the eMMC standard linux but when I put in the SD card, nothing his happening Aug 26 12:06:00 hold the boot button Aug 26 12:06:01 http://circuitco.com/support/index.php?title=BeagleBone#Revision_A5 Aug 26 12:06:05 during boot Aug 26 12:06:08 norbi: and I would slap your indent manager with a large trout also Aug 26 12:06:18 av500: boot button? Aug 26 12:06:27 can I connect a geaglebone black to a DVI-D imput monitor? Aug 26 12:06:32 booton so to say Aug 26 12:06:37 Gandhi: yes Aug 26 12:06:44 ynezz: sry, i dont get what u mean Aug 26 12:06:53 your code looks like shit Aug 26 12:06:57 ah Aug 26 12:06:57 is what he said Aug 26 12:07:08 ah u meant my indent in the code Aug 26 12:07:08 :D Aug 26 12:07:37 indent early, indent often Aug 26 12:07:37 In C is it better to use the FILE struct and fopen()/fclose() or fcntl with an int file descriptor and open()/close()? Aug 26 12:07:38 but it doesnt look like that on my IDE Aug 26 12:07:49 LaXiS96: I prefer open Aug 26 12:08:03 norbi: well, then dont use pastebin Aug 26 12:08:13 instead, send us plane tickets to sit next to you Aug 26 12:08:30 av500: Good. Aug 26 12:08:56 av500: :D Aug 26 12:09:03 av500: its friday? Aug 26 12:09:15 Does the A5 support all kinds of SDHC cards? I have a SDHC, class 10... maybe that's the problem? Aug 26 12:09:15 using open/close you prevent the libc from messing it up, instead you can mess it up yourself Aug 26 12:09:16 8-char tabs suck. Go for 4-char tabs. Aug 26 12:09:26 btw errno gives me Success but still Aug 26 12:09:28 LaXiS96: go away Aug 26 12:09:34 dostoyevsky: no Aug 26 12:09:42 marketing numbers are not a problem Aug 26 12:09:51 av500: what? Aug 26 12:10:15 nvm i figured out Aug 26 12:10:16 dostoyevsky: most likely the card is bad Aug 26 12:10:24 or rather badly written Aug 26 12:10:33 or the boot button is not held at boot time Aug 26 12:11:10 av500: What does that "go away" mean? Aug 26 12:11:19 lol Aug 26 12:11:21 [14:09] 8-char tabs suck. Go for 4-char tabs. Aug 26 12:11:40 av500: So? Aug 26 12:13:41 (facepalm) Aug 26 12:14:07 that too Aug 26 12:15:29 av500: Are you still going on? Aug 26 12:20:05 av500: If I press down the boot button I see three of the four lights going on. But then it freezes... without the button I just see one light Aug 26 12:21:22 and you cycle the power? Aug 26 12:21:32 boot button is only checked at power up Aug 26 12:21:37 yes Aug 26 12:21:45 card can be bad Aug 26 12:21:47 I hold the button and then switch it on Aug 26 12:21:52 ok Aug 26 12:21:57 what'S on the card? Aug 26 12:22:22 /dev/sdb1 * 2048 133119 65536 e W95 FAT16 (LBA) Aug 26 12:22:29 /dev/sdb2 133120 30881791 15374336 83 Linux Aug 26 12:22:36 archilinux-arm standard image Aug 26 12:22:49 looks good Aug 26 12:23:58 But I had to create the ala image on an RPI, as I don't have mkfs.ext4 on my mac... will check the SDHC on my mac... now that I have an image Aug 26 12:24:28 content of the FAT partition Aug 26 12:25:05 MLO u-boot.img uEnv.txt Aug 26 12:25:28 ext4 has linux root filesystem Aug 26 12:25:43 content of uEnv.txt Aug 26 12:27:49 av500: http://pastebin.com/Bu8C3sxG Aug 26 12:30:01 ok Aug 26 12:30:04 sorry, no idea Aug 26 12:30:13 hmmm... no problem reading the sd card on my mac... hmmm Aug 26 12:30:14 card all the way in? Aug 26 12:30:35 av500: I think so, it clicks... Aug 26 12:31:12 I'll get another SD card later, maybe it will work better Aug 26 12:31:48 av500: Thanks for your help anyways Aug 26 12:39:11 hi Aug 26 12:39:26 av500: we have an usolicited heap of trafic in #yo**o originated by the now resident troll. Amazing how rapidly his knowledge has increased, up to the point of confusing everyone ("I have the same and it works"). What to do? He has already opened 20-30 bugs in a few days. Aug 26 12:39:40 I have a question about GPIO at boot time Aug 26 12:41:20 koen: "There now is a sourceable script in ~/.oe/enviroment". Not with the latest angstrom-v2013.06-yocto1.4. Might wanna fix that message. Aug 26 12:41:55 ant_work: -EUSERTERMINATED? Aug 26 12:42:01 gerod: just ask Aug 26 12:42:04 dont ask to ask Aug 26 12:44:07 when you boot the BBB Aug 26 12:44:35 the level of GPIO is about 3 volts Aug 26 12:45:09 I need to have them to 0 and then set to high level after boot Aug 26 12:50:56 guys, is there another easy way to access GPIO, pwm and such bside sysfs? i know about device tree structure, but i dont really understand what that overlay means, i need to write my own drivers and use them instead of the device tree struct or ? Aug 26 12:51:42 av500: any idea? Aug 26 12:52:55 koen: pull request sent Aug 26 12:55:20 tasslehoff: thanks! Aug 26 13:00:29 gerod: you can pull them low in the 1st stage boot loader Aug 26 13:00:46 I guess by default they come up as highZ or input Aug 26 13:02:50 damn I missed the 4/8 spaces tabs troll Aug 26 13:03:33 1st stage boot loader? sorry but i'm a new-nebie Aug 26 13:05:45 MLO Aug 26 13:05:55 thats the earliest code under your control Aug 26 13:06:02 its built as part of uboot Aug 26 13:06:23 gerod: it probably depends on how critical it is to have the pins in the correct state at power on. if this is critical you probably need external hardware Aug 26 13:07:08 didn't aholler make some boot charts ? Aug 26 13:07:19 2/3 weeks ago Aug 26 13:07:23 the charts dont set GPIOs Aug 26 13:07:30 i want to set high a pin to enable all harware thatb the BBB will use Aug 26 13:07:54 are you sure the pin goes high after boot? Aug 26 13:07:59 and is not just pulled up? Aug 26 13:08:16 maybe a pulldown is all you need Aug 26 13:09:56 [15:00] I guess by default they come up as highZ or input Aug 26 13:10:26 yes Aug 26 13:10:32 but no need to guess Aug 26 13:10:39 its quite specified Aug 26 13:11:35 av500: can you please me tell where to find this specifications Aug 26 13:12:50 gerod: see the CPU specs at TI Aug 26 13:12:52 in the am335x TRM Aug 26 13:13:39 does anyone know if the Angstrom online image builder at http://narcissus.angstrom-distribution.org/ can build for BBB? Aug 26 13:22:29 Hello Aug 26 13:29:58 Hello,I have question need specific technical Engineer. Aug 26 13:31:40 Do not ask to ask, just ask. Aug 26 13:32:56 About the association for BeagleBone black,what's the types of the association? Aug 26 13:36:26 I am not sure what you mean by "association" in this context. Aug 26 13:39:16 it is the related parts with Development board. Aug 26 13:43:35 Still not getting what you mean. Aug 26 13:43:50 Do you mean schematic? Aug 26 13:46:44 Or board layout file? Aug 26 13:46:49 Or cape design? Aug 26 13:52:20 av500: i'm trying a bit Aug 26 13:52:54 but setting the output high with python i can't see anything changing Aug 26 13:54:10 av500: I want to try with echo but i dont remember correspondance between "P9_12" and GPIO number Aug 26 14:03:52 the with echo from shell everything is ok, byt with adafruit and python doesnt work Aug 26 14:04:30 anybody with experience with GPIO Adafruit python library? Aug 26 14:08:02 good afterJIHAD! Aug 26 14:14:01 hi guys, can you please tell me how can i install a complete webserver on angstrom? lighthttp, mysql and php? Aug 26 14:35:50 anybody with experience with GPIO Adafruit python library? Aug 26 14:43:57 KotH AfterWhichJIHAD ? Aug 26 14:45:22 AfterThePreviousJIHAD Aug 26 14:46:34 heh Aug 26 14:47:36 It is kind of amazing some of the people who get a BBB . . . sometimes I am wondering wtf they were thinking Aug 26 14:48:28 why? Aug 26 14:48:31 what did you see? Aug 26 14:49:45 I see a lot of people who should own a MAC or a Windows PC, and should leave embedded system to the big dogs. Aug 26 14:51:23 why? Aug 26 14:51:39 BBB is kinda embedded systems for the small dogs. Aug 26 14:51:40 some of the questions im seeing Aug 26 14:51:49 apparently not Aug 26 14:52:10 malcom2073, i get what you're saying and i agree Aug 26 14:52:16 well.. you know that everyone started as a noob Aug 26 14:52:29 KotH I *am* a noob Aug 26 14:52:34 when i started with linux, i asked some pretty stupid questions Aug 26 14:52:58 well im an embedded linux newb Aug 26 14:53:20 same here Aug 26 14:53:49 KotH did you start wit hthe white ? or one of the beagleboards ? Aug 26 14:53:52 just imagine, what kind of questions you'd ask if you didnt know computers as well as you do now, if you didnt know linux at all Aug 26 14:54:07 i actually started with my own design based on an i.mx23 :) Aug 26 14:54:28 college project ? Aug 26 14:54:40 i'm not mranostay ;) Aug 26 14:54:45 heheh Aug 26 14:55:03 well you dont have to be young to go back to school, but ok Aug 26 14:55:07 nah, a customer wanted to have some special system, where the obvious solution was to use linux as OS Aug 26 14:55:31 i am actually a student, but in psychology, not in CS or EE :) Aug 26 14:55:49 ug phycology Aug 26 14:55:57 un-science ;) Aug 26 14:57:01 errr yeah i spelled that wrong lol Aug 26 14:57:05 anyway Aug 26 14:59:41 KotH: what is this? Aug 26 15:01:02 mranostay: being you, it's probably a beer in your hand Aug 26 15:01:21 it is 8a Aug 26 15:01:46 well, either you start early, or you havent finished yet Aug 26 15:02:42 ive been tying one on for like the last month myself Aug 26 15:02:53 every night, well many Aug 26 15:37:39 hm, the BBB FAQ says that the latest revision is A5C but my board says B4 Aug 26 15:43:31 anyone going to japan before ELCE? i need someone to get me one of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w06zvM2x_lw Aug 26 15:46:44 mmmh Aug 26 15:47:07 colleague has a USB to UART chip that when connected draws as much power from ths USB as possible Aug 26 15:47:21 and disconnects other peripherals Aug 26 15:47:27 seems fried to me ? Aug 26 15:50:43 either broken or not spec compliant Aug 26 15:50:52 or the usb port is broken Aug 26 15:50:57 or the usb hub Aug 26 15:51:02 or anything usb related Aug 26 15:51:36 oh.. if he uses windows, then usb is in a broken state anyways Aug 26 15:51:51 :) Aug 26 15:51:57 he uses both windows and ubuntu Aug 26 15:52:02 i'm not joking Aug 26 15:52:11 tested on both with sortof the same result Aug 26 15:52:17 it's a wonder that any usb device is working with windows at all Aug 26 15:52:25 I told him his chip is friend Aug 26 15:52:32 fried* Aug 26 15:52:51 got something to read for me ? Aug 26 15:52:59 das, this is a FTDI chip, or oneof the others ? Aug 26 15:53:15 i developed a usb device stack a couple of years ago, and crashed windows 20-30 times a day (black screen, not even a BSOD) until i finally got fed up and continued with using linux as a host system Aug 26 15:53:31 m_billybob: I'll ask the refenrence of the chip Aug 26 15:54:06 das, I am just curious, because FTDI is my go to chip personally for uart <->USB Aug 26 15:54:42 almost willing to bet its not an FTDI, but who knows Aug 26 15:55:02 CP2103 Aug 26 15:55:10 so cypress Aug 26 15:55:48 well that was a guess whcih i think is wrong Aug 26 15:56:05 silicon labs Aug 26 15:56:26 das, thanks for asking. Aug 26 15:56:44 m_billybob: so you'll stick even more to FTDI now ? :D Aug 26 15:57:01 * SilicaGel Do Not Eat Aug 26 15:58:11 das, IDK that chip is kind of interresting, has 4 GPIOs in addition Aug 26 15:58:19 but yeah probably Aug 26 15:59:31 m_billybob: i would choose cypress over ftdi Aug 26 15:59:51 m_billybob: ftdi are "cheap" but in both meanings of the word Aug 26 16:00:17 otoh it's the first usb/uart chip I see with this behavior Aug 26 16:00:28 ftdi has solid drivers Aug 26 16:00:33 always. Aug 26 16:00:42 thats the main reason why i like ftdi Aug 26 16:01:30 KotH, but for doing something other than uart to USB, yeah ive read some cypress stuff it pretty nice Aug 26 16:01:39 it==is Aug 26 16:02:23 the ftdi drivers are quite good, that's true. especially compared to the other drivers that are usually used (like windows own usbser.sys), but the devices are not well designed Aug 26 16:02:30 they lack a lot Aug 26 16:02:43 but then, they do their job for 90% of the people Aug 26 16:03:17 KotH, ok so im not exactly an EE what do you not like about them ? Aug 26 16:04:07 and yes i do use windows for a lot of development and have also read widnows USB stack / drivers is piss poor for doign any decent USB development with Aug 26 16:04:12 m_billybob: the ftdi are designs for the majority of people. if you use them to limits of what serial devices support, things stop working Aug 26 16:04:16 m_billybob: or get extremely slow Aug 26 16:04:33 things, people were used to do with "hardware" serial ports Aug 26 16:05:23 ive not experienced that in windows with ftdi yet, but i havent exactly done an USB development yet Aug 26 16:05:50 any . . . Aug 26 16:05:52 as i said, it works for 90% of the people Aug 26 16:06:04 so high baud rates ? Aug 26 16:06:07 higher* Aug 26 16:06:11 oh.. and never use ftdi chips for i2c or spi. just dont Aug 26 16:06:13 say over 1Mbit ? Aug 26 16:06:29 i think the max i've ever got with an ftdi was 3mbit/s Aug 26 16:06:38 reliably Aug 26 16:06:58 ftdi we only use for uart here Aug 26 16:07:17 with rx and tx coupled together over an open collector driver and then onto a bidirectional 3.3V <-> 1.8V level shifter Aug 26 16:07:31 i'm still surprised that thing ever worked :) Aug 26 16:07:35 I think wulf my buddy likes other brands for SPI stuff, and I2C probably a mix between TI max, and hmm cant think of the other Aug 26 16:08:27 im still learnign all of this and fro ma programmers perspective but hes been at EE for over 30 years Aug 26 16:08:58 i havent done any I2C develement stuff period so far Aug 26 16:09:08 but have done one project with SPI Aug 26 16:09:48 oh, it's always the same with that kind of stuff, and i assume it has been the same for ever since the 4004 appeared: these things have silicon bugs. and you will stumble upon one when you are two days before a deadline Aug 26 16:10:14 so, if you wan to learn that kind of stuff, just use it :) Aug 26 16:10:46 yeah we're just a couple of hobbyists in this regard, hopeign to eventualy make a few bucks selling an integrated hardware / software design. Aug 26 16:11:15 so "deadline" doesnt really appl in our case Aug 26 16:12:28 yeah, the deadline might not apply, but do not think that "professionals" have more or better skills than hobbyists Aug 26 16:12:32 he gets paid to be a radio station engineer, and everything we do on the side is mad scientist sort of stuff :) Aug 26 16:12:41 actually quite the contrary :-( Aug 26 16:13:41 KotH not many EE's out there are goign to be better than him esppecially when it comes to analog, software whcih is me . . theres plenty better than I, but . . . i do ok Aug 26 16:14:44 given enough time I feel there isnt anythign i can not figure out and do Aug 26 16:15:22 i am still quite young, i have not seen much, but i have seen many programmers and lots of EEs Aug 26 16:15:49 and i can tell you, that especially with programmers, the skills in the hobbyist are generally higher than those of professionals Aug 26 16:16:11 thats good to know, but at the same time, kind of sad. Aug 26 16:16:16 it's very sad Aug 26 16:16:37 but companies dont mind, i doubt most of the decision makers even understand what their programmers do Aug 26 16:17:05 heck, i've seen code that an first year programmer apprentice could do better Aug 26 16:17:10 i blame java ;) Aug 26 16:17:32 like a 200 loc ring buffer done by someone who did C for >15 years on microcontrollers Aug 26 16:17:50 javascript im ok with meaning i dont think badly of it. java on the other hand . . . Aug 26 16:18:21 i found 5 or so bugs within the first 5min looking at it. a friend whom i showed it found another 7 bugs at the first glance Aug 26 16:18:33 hehe Aug 26 16:18:39 it is _not_ a problem of the programming language Aug 26 16:18:46 200 lines for a ring buffer ? oO Aug 26 16:19:03 well i mean more the way the common schools teach programmign using that language Aug 26 16:19:08 it's a matter people teaching programming in a way where you are told that you do not need to understand what is going on, because the compiler/VM will magically take care of things Aug 26 16:19:34 das, its the 12 bugs that bloat the code, I guess... Aug 26 16:19:47 are they paid per loc ? Aug 26 16:19:58 das: it gets better. when i fixed it, the rest of the system stopped working. Aug 26 16:20:05 lol Aug 26 16:20:09 ring buffers is somethign i need to work on myself Aug 26 16:20:12 indian software ? Aug 26 16:20:28 lol Aug 26 16:20:29 das: it took me a while to figure out that the communication system relied on the ring buffer to lose a byte every now and then to properly work Aug 26 16:20:49 that is funny. Aug 26 16:20:58 we've had something similar happen with our indian subcontractor Aug 26 16:21:03 we fixed a communication API Aug 26 16:21:10 and it broke the encryption Aug 26 16:23:31 m_billybob: i could tell you dozens of such storries Aug 26 16:23:47 yeah sad thing is, ive heard many to go along with those Aug 26 16:24:08 read about many too Aug 26 16:24:08 yeah.. Aug 26 16:24:13 daily wtf? Aug 26 16:24:14 :) Aug 26 16:24:30 the book dont recall the name, something like "how *NOT* to program type books Aug 26 16:24:41 *g* Aug 26 16:25:07 must know for anyone writing code: http://thedailywtf.com/ Aug 26 16:25:23 KotH: I knew this site before I even began coding :D Aug 26 16:25:43 lol Aug 26 16:25:46 foreach (var proc in procs) Aug 26 16:25:46 { Aug 26 16:25:46 proc.Kill(); Aug 26 16:25:46 } Aug 26 16:26:40 i go go on all day just on the style not to mention the likely outcome of that code Aug 26 16:26:46 i could go on all day* Aug 26 16:29:25 i had these kind of experiences as well... in a 10 men company: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Coding-Practices-MUST-Be-Followed.aspx Aug 26 16:31:38 KotH: last summer duing my internship I asked for coding rules and validation software, and was told "here we code without bugs" Aug 26 16:32:29 lol Aug 26 16:32:47 ds2: sounds like a fun internship Aug 26 16:33:01 so you guys had no bug tracking system i'm sure Aug 26 16:33:08 or QA team Aug 26 16:33:15 i need to finish my damned pru debugger :( Aug 26 16:33:26 SilicaGel: debugger? Aug 26 16:33:33 das: in my current company, i review the coding guidelines every time i start a bigger project. and every time i remove another layer of cruft which i was not allowed to remove in my last review :) Aug 26 16:33:41 yeah i started working on a debugger a long time ago and never finished it Aug 26 16:33:50 for setting breakpoints, examining memory, the usual debugger sort of thing. Aug 26 16:33:55 i need to motivate up. Aug 26 16:34:08 heh before someone else beats you :P Aug 26 16:34:11 * mranostay whistles Aug 26 16:34:22 well shit, if that's the case let's collaborate Aug 26 16:34:32 https://github.com/wz2b/prude Aug 26 16:35:47 SilicaGel: why write yet another debugger? Aug 26 16:35:59 lol Aug 26 16:36:00 What exists that I can just use? Aug 26 16:36:05 KotH: are you MISRA/DO-xxx compliant ? Aug 26 16:36:06 gdb? Aug 26 16:36:11 das: no Aug 26 16:36:11 KotH yeah that is pretty funny Aug 26 16:36:12 GDB can't debug the PRUSS Aug 26 16:36:23 das: misra is nice, but restricts you an awfull lot Aug 26 16:36:29 KotH: then what coding rules do you need on top of the kernl ones ? :D Aug 26 16:36:36 no gotos -_- Aug 26 16:36:49 das: it's like wrapping a razor blade in 20 layers of cloth, because you could cut yourself with it Aug 26 16:37:03 but break; and continue; are allowed I think Aug 26 16:37:10 -_- Aug 26 16:37:33 SilicaGel: so ka.. so datta no ka.... Aug 26 16:37:40 (?) Aug 26 16:37:50 I think using break is bad practise too, in general, but all operators have their uses. Aug 26 16:37:57 SilicaGel: that's the polite way of saying "you should learn japanese" ;) Aug 26 16:37:57 SilicaGel: oh wait debugger for the PRU itself? Aug 26 16:38:09 For the PRU itself, yes Aug 26 16:38:11 did that C compiler ever get released? Aug 26 16:38:15 das: see, i work in a company that has been in existence for about 15 years Aug 26 16:38:19 I didn' tknow there seriously was a C compiler for it Aug 26 16:38:28 I heard a lot of people crying that they wanted one, but it never really made sense to me Aug 26 16:38:31 das: it was an university spin off Aug 26 16:38:41 das: people saw that they need to have guidelines and rules Aug 26 16:38:47 KotH: it was my understanding that your fellow colleagues were reasonable Aug 26 16:38:50 someone wrote a debuger for the PRU's too i thought Aug 26 16:38:51 people also need to whips and chains Aug 26 16:38:53 SilicaGel: one was in the works iirc.. pointless though :) Aug 26 16:38:59 das: but because they didnt know any better, they made up their own guides and rules Aug 26 16:39:07 das: which sometimes are pretty fucking stupid Aug 26 16:39:28 das: my co-workers are reasonable, but they are sometimes quite stubborn Aug 26 16:39:41 KotH: here have a cigar^H^H^H^Hhocolate Aug 26 16:39:55 das: when i try to change something, i often hear the excuse "we have done it like this for the past 10 years and it worked great" Aug 26 16:40:10 * m_billybob didnt like do{}(while) for a logn time either Aug 26 16:40:27 mranostay: thanks, but i dont take anything you lable as chocolate ;-> Aug 26 16:40:28 but sometimes, it can be faster / more efficient. Aug 26 16:41:06 * mranostay cries in the corner Aug 26 16:41:18 KotH: I'll trade no coding rules vs git Aug 26 16:41:24 m_billybob: yeah.. knowing the programming language you are working with is great.. most people dont Aug 26 16:41:51 mranostay: poor boy. what have they done to you? Aug 26 16:42:29 mranostay: but dont worry, i'll bring you some chocolate, then you can learn how it should taste and bring that knowledge to the other side of the big pond ;) Aug 26 16:43:32 im still learning Aug 26 16:44:27 as long as you are learning, there is nothing to fear Aug 26 16:44:39 the do loop knowlege i picked up from someone else when reading through his code for a custom printf() on a msp430 Aug 26 16:44:51 ( and askign questions ) Aug 26 16:45:47 someone whom i may add knows how to cycle count, somethign else i need to work my myself Aug 26 16:46:16 counting cycles i've not seen be done for a long time Aug 26 16:46:27 ok, unless you are writing in asm for speed anyways Aug 26 16:46:48 well the g2553 ( msp430 ) 16Mhz max, 512k ram, 16k flash Aug 26 16:46:56 so you're kind of limited Aug 26 16:47:22 eeking out every bit of performance and ram usage sometimes goes a long ways Aug 26 16:47:32 KotH: PRU assembly! Aug 26 16:48:13 mranostay: there aint no c compiler for the PRU :) Aug 26 16:48:15 rum o'clock Aug 26 16:48:17 cya Aug 26 16:48:25 m_billybob: i know the msp430 Aug 26 16:48:38 rum-o'clock comes early on mondays i see :) Aug 26 16:48:52 m_billybob: and it has plenty resources compared to some other stuff i worked with ;) Aug 26 16:49:08 monday? i thought it's friday? Aug 26 16:49:14 KotH as an introductory MCU into embedded i think its a pretty good platform Aug 26 16:49:15 KotH: there is but fscking pointless Aug 26 16:49:35 also the 8kb of instruction memory limits you Aug 26 16:49:39 well mcu launchpad is a fairly decent platform for leqarning i mean Aug 26 16:50:41 m_billybob: i liked the pic16c5x better, they are a lot simpler and easier to understand Aug 26 16:50:52 PIC all things! Aug 26 16:50:59 m_billybob: but there werent any launchpads back then Aug 26 16:51:17 my first embedded project was with a rabbit semi micro, and I have to tell you I hated it. they have their own proprietary compile that "ressembles" C like code, but proprietary libraries . . . i did not like it at all Aug 26 16:51:52 KotH I still want to learn about PIC32's/dsPICs eventually Aug 26 16:52:07 m_billybob: never tried those Aug 26 16:52:23 m_billybob: for 32bit stuff i'm mostly on arm Aug 26 16:52:32 they would be decent i think if their compiler and libraries were more open, as in OSS Aug 26 16:52:44 gcc Aug 26 16:53:31 knowing microchip, their designs should not be too complicated. hence it should be easy to write a gcc backend Aug 26 16:53:32 anyone who has been programming C for a good amount of time should feel reasonbly familiar in a gcc port toolchain Aug 26 16:53:44 lol Aug 26 16:53:47 no Aug 26 16:53:51 defintily no Aug 26 16:54:01 definately no what ? Aug 26 16:54:55 just last friday, i had to explain someone who has been doing c/c++ for at least 20 years, what the -fno-strict-aliasing option in gcc does Aug 26 16:55:01 tha twasnt true for me, but i stayed in the windows area for far too long Aug 26 16:55:10 he wasnt even able to figure out what it meant Aug 26 16:55:20 people dont know gcc Aug 26 16:55:28 people dont even know how compilers work in general Aug 26 16:55:30 couldnt type executable --h ? Aug 26 16:55:46 or use google ? Aug 26 16:56:07 he failed at google, by searching the wrong way Aug 26 16:56:20 sometimes thats not hard to do Aug 26 16:56:27 he failed to look up the manual of gcc, because he didnt think abou that Aug 26 16:56:46 im guilty of that myself Aug 26 16:56:48 i'm actually the only one in our company who takes the time of at least skimming trough manuals and standards Aug 26 16:57:06 hence i'm the only one who knows where to look up things Aug 26 16:57:20 or how they relate to other things Aug 26 16:57:25 it's fucking annoying Aug 26 16:57:44 mranostay: another cigar^H^H^H^Hhocolate please! Aug 26 16:57:56 last week or so i felt rather silly asking mru a question when he simply pointed me to the gnu gcc pages lol Aug 26 16:58:10 hehe Aug 26 16:58:17 my point being yeah i can relate to that Aug 26 16:58:21 asking mru questions about c does that Aug 26 16:58:56 dont worry, i know him for ages and have asked him lots of such questions, and most times he just pointed me in the direction of the gcc manual or the c standard :) Aug 26 16:59:16 the good news is that I now realize it was a silly question and it makes me think harder before asking "stupid questions" Aug 26 17:00:02 What's the best way to debug booting problems from SD card? Aug 26 17:00:16 ... Aug 26 17:00:22 serial debug interface ? Aug 26 17:00:25 E.g. right now I do not have a monitor attached, would I get more info if there was a display? Aug 26 17:00:40 serial debug interface dostoyevsky Aug 26 17:00:48 m_billybob: Ok Aug 26 17:00:56 3v3 ttl USB<-> uart module Aug 26 17:01:15 jtag could work too but more work involved Aug 26 17:01:22 and probably overkill Aug 26 17:01:42 dostoyevsky we are talkign abotu a beaglebone black ? Aug 26 17:01:59 i doubt anyone who does know own a serial usb cable has the skills to debug the boot up process of linux using jtag ;) Aug 26 17:02:11 s/know/not/ Aug 26 17:02:17 * KotH not awake Aug 26 17:02:22 i dotn know how, but could learn Aug 26 17:02:24 Ah... so the serial interface would give a console sort of Aug 26 17:02:28 me Aug 26 17:02:34 exactly what it does dostoyevsky Aug 26 17:03:15 m_billybob: let me tell you one thing: debugging the kernel using gdb is a major PITA, there are just too many time critical things going on Aug 26 17:03:17 startign fro mthe beginning of uboot, all the way to login. and once you login its exactly like using an ssh connection for all intents and purposes Aug 26 17:03:22 m_billybob: using printf is much better Aug 26 17:04:06 KotH im rather fond of printf() debugging. probably because it is so simple, and I kind developed my own TDD" programmign style Aug 26 17:04:23 i compile often Aug 26 17:04:55 TDD? Aug 26 17:05:02 test driven development Aug 26 17:05:46 When would you need to do kernel development on a BBB? Aug 26 17:05:47 i dotn wirte tests, but i do test often. i wotn write code for hours before compiling, I write maybe one function at time, and ensure the code does what is expected Aug 26 17:06:14 not perfect . . . but it works good for me Aug 26 17:06:34 KotH: http://26-26-54.hardwarebug.org/13 Aug 26 17:06:47 lol Aug 26 17:06:48 m_billybob: What are your reasons for actually developing code in the kernel vs. doing it in userland? Aug 26 17:06:54 m_billybob: hehe Aug 26 17:06:55 er.. Aug 26 17:06:57 mru: hehe Aug 26 17:07:18 dostoyevsky that question would be better answered by someone else Aug 26 17:07:36 dostoyevsky: do everything you can do in userland there Aug 26 17:07:57 dostoyevsky: everything that needs direct access to hardware that cannot be abstracted away goes into the kernel Aug 26 17:08:39 m_billybob: well, depends. if you are writing bigger stuff, you sometimes need to lay down a framework of things. then you can be writing for a couple of days without having compilable code Aug 26 17:09:13 KotH perhaps but i guess in a case like that i do write mini tests Aug 26 17:09:19 Well, I for one always felt, that Linux's security model just takes aways performance when you try to do everything through the kernel... And I suspect that might be the reason why people prefer to do stuff directly in the kernel Aug 26 17:09:45 performance is relative though Aug 26 17:10:00 dostoyevsky: linux security model? Aug 26 17:10:03 sometimes fast enough, is fast enough Aug 26 17:10:15 dostoyevsky: linux is a very very thin layer between the code you are running and the actual hardware Aug 26 17:10:35 dostoyevsky: unlike things like windows of vms which are layers upon layers upon layers Aug 26 17:11:16 dostoyevsky: if you want to understand why linux (or actually all unix in general) are like they are, read the book "the design of the unix operating system" by bach Aug 26 17:12:02 KotH: I have... Aug 26 17:15:32 note to self: forgetting a boiling pan is a bad idea ^^; Aug 26 17:15:49 ive seen fires started from such Aug 26 17:16:09 ( aluminum pot ) Aug 26 17:16:14 yeah.. Aug 26 17:16:38 most modern stoves have temperature limits that prevent that kind of stuff, but the one i have is quite old, so it doesnt Aug 26 17:16:43 dostoyevsky what is it that you need that much performance for ? Aug 26 17:16:46 but then, i'm using steal pans :) Aug 26 17:16:48 KotH: Linus policy always was to rather copy buffers to secure them against tampering and switching from userland to kernel simply takes time... But I was just wondering what people here cited as their reasons to write code in the kernel directly Aug 26 17:17:04 in the case of the Beaglebone there is the PRU which can operate independant of the OS Aug 26 17:17:29 dostoyevsky: uhmm... yes and no. yes, security goes over speed. no, the linux kernel isnt slow if you imply that Aug 26 17:18:03 dostoyevsky: but the kernel does away with a lot of copying in the kernel. Aug 26 17:18:34 dostoyevsky: it uses intricate tricks to ensure that buffers cannot be tampered with or are in exactly the state the kernel expects them Aug 26 17:18:56 dostoyevsky: just read up a bit on "zero copy" Aug 26 17:19:22 dostoyevsky: but no matter what system it is in the kernel, there is one rule that has been always applied: correct working goes over any speed improvement Aug 26 17:20:04 dostoyevsky: yes, if you are master over your system and can ensure you are the only user of it, then you can get rid of quite a few security checks Aug 26 17:20:17 worse case scenario if you need linux and performance, id probably use some dedicted hardware solution, to communicate with linux if speed for a few thigns were needed Aug 26 17:20:39 dostoyevsky: but if your system is complex enough to require a unix operating system, then you cannot ensure anymore that you are the only user on the system anymore Aug 26 17:21:35 dostoyevsky: how old are you and what is your profession, if i may ask? Aug 26 17:22:42 KotH: I am 37 and worked as a software engineer since 1997 Aug 26 17:23:55 http://www.openonload.org/ <- userland TCP/IP stacks have always been an area where less security could give large gains in speed Aug 26 17:25:21 But I guess you won't do high performance stuff on an BBB anyways :) Aug 26 17:25:43 And just polling some PINS should work fine from userland Aug 26 17:25:51 dostoyevsky: uhmm.. no Aug 26 17:26:26 dostoyevsky: user land tcp/ip stacks give you more speed because you can do stuff in the user space that you cannot do in kernel space. like operations on huge (MB large) buffers Aug 26 17:26:39 dostoyevsky: that's where the gain of such user land implementations come from Aug 26 17:27:03 dostoyevsky: for more information on this topic read "network algorithms" by varghese Aug 26 17:27:11 KotH: Ok, interesting to know Aug 26 17:27:16 you can do large buffers from kernel space Aug 26 17:27:33 ds2: not large continous buffers Aug 26 17:27:39 sure you can Aug 26 17:27:42 large pages Aug 26 17:28:03 you have to reserve these on early after boot Aug 26 17:28:16 after a couple of minutes of runtime, memory gets pretty fragemented Aug 26 17:28:18 sure Aug 26 17:28:34 it doesn't prevent you from doing it. you just need to design it so you can do it Aug 26 17:28:39 KotH: The kernel itself doesn't use the MMU? Aug 26 17:29:10 ok, i dont know what linux offers these days on this topic, but on early 2.6 there was no way you could get more than 4th order allocation after all init scripts have run Aug 26 17:29:24 dostoyevsky: it does and yet it doesnt Aug 26 17:29:31 dostoyevsky: you cannot use the MMU at all places Aug 26 17:29:33 the kernel does use the MMU but kernel code and data (in general) is no pageable to avoid locking issues Aug 26 17:30:20 dostoyevsky: the large document on kernel memory managment that IIRC mel gorman wrote a couple of years ago Aug 26 17:30:21 KotH: MMU is not just paging. you HAVE to use the MMU unless you explicitly request otherwise Aug 26 17:30:49 ds2: yes. i was refering to the use that dostoyevsky was implying Aug 26 17:31:25 Does BBB's armv7 have a MMU that is comparable to x64? Aug 26 17:31:58 oh boi Aug 26 17:32:35 KotH: I will check out those authors you mentioned Aug 26 17:32:41 dostoyevsky: you have never done low leve or OS kernel stuff (not necessarily linux) ? Aug 26 17:33:26 KotH: I have done some Aug 26 17:33:46 weird... Aug 26 17:33:55 KotH: Why? Aug 26 17:35:12 the BBB's ethernet is prett darned fast too Aug 26 17:35:27 cant see it gettign much better than 11.9MB/s reads Aug 26 17:35:55 dostoyevsky: the types of questions you are asking are those i would to hear from someone who has never touched anything low level Aug 26 17:36:21 +1 Aug 26 17:36:26 m_billybob: troughput is not always the thing you need, sometimes it's latency ;) Aug 26 17:36:44 dostoyevsky: put there an "expect" where it fits Aug 26 17:36:47 sub millisecond Aug 26 17:36:54 m_billybob: slooooooooooow :) Aug 26 17:37:05 KotH: I haven't worked much outside Intel, if that's what you mean Aug 26 17:37:07 fast enough :) Aug 26 17:37:18 mranostay: he is your friend! ;-) Aug 26 17:37:53 heh sure sure Aug 26 17:40:07 Well, I am not here to win a popularity contest. Just understanding things Aug 26 17:40:18 Sorry if that offends you Aug 26 17:40:37 dont worry about that Aug 26 17:40:40 you didnt offend anyone Aug 26 17:40:55 i just want to understand where your questions come from, to give better answers Aug 26 17:41:09 * mranostay offends KotH Aug 26 17:41:20 mranostay: put that hersheys away! Aug 26 17:41:28 send him chocolate from oregon Aug 26 17:41:31 lol Aug 26 17:41:38 samepage there Aug 26 17:41:46 hipster chocolate? Aug 26 17:41:57 nasty american chocolate Aug 26 17:42:17 unfortunately its all we have a lot of the time Aug 26 17:42:23 m_billybob: how about corporate vending machine chocolate Aug 26 17:42:32 worse still Aug 26 17:42:54 snickers bars Aug 26 17:42:57 i lived in germany for 3 years though so i have a vague understanding of what good chocolate is Aug 26 17:43:20 KotH: I am writing a compiler in my freetime and I want to support armv6, armv7, and x64. That's basically why I got an RPI and BBB now. :) Aug 26 17:43:49 dostoyevsky: i hope you already own the dragon book? :) Aug 26 17:44:26 yet another compiler? Aug 26 17:44:43 KotH: Yes... also read this like 15 years ago... and then Muchnik (sp?)... But I just want do to a simple turob-pascal style one-pass compiler Aug 26 17:46:00 mranostay: Some things you can only appreciate if you try to write them yourself. After that I probably write my own kernel.. Just to see what it's like. Not to invent the next Linux Aug 26 17:48:37 while you're at it see if you can help out red hat to speed along the "next best mspgcc" ;) Aug 26 17:48:51 no sarcasmmeant. Aug 26 17:48:59 no sarcasm meant. Aug 26 17:49:54 I've always wanted to write my own OS too, but then realization for me sets in. I would never finish it ( not enough time ) Aug 26 17:51:14 m_billybob: Do one that just prints "hello world"... Then do one that initializes the MMU and does a page fault calling an interrupt you've set up... you could do this in a week if you had no idea about it. If you already know how to write boot managers you could do it in some hours I'd say Aug 26 17:51:35 dostoyevsky: muchnick is a good book if you want to learn about optimizations in general. but the notation he invents is very confusing. and it only contains the most basic stuff about optimization Aug 26 17:52:41 KotH: #llvm @ oftc is a very good resource. Aug 26 17:53:20 dostoyevsky: for a simple one pass compiler, get yourself a copy of the last book wirth has published (sorry, cant remember the name and a friend of mine lost my copy), he explains how to get there in simple words with lots of examples Aug 26 17:53:20 And llvm has documented code... nice to read imho Aug 26 17:53:52 dostoyevsky: also "language implementation patters" by part, is very usefull Aug 26 17:53:55 KotH: Yeah, I have it on my list of things to read Aug 26 17:53:58 patterns* Aug 26 18:46:06 Just was able to ssh to my BB after eMM update, yay! Aug 26 18:46:28 eMMC even Aug 26 18:49:24 It's a bit annoying that I have to hold a button to actually boot from an SD card... so it means if I want archlinux-arm then I'd need to put it on eMMC to use it conveniently Aug 26 18:49:58 dostoyevsky: you can force boot from SD by adding a pullup resistor to one of the pins on P8 Aug 26 18:50:29 emeb_mac: Ah, great! Aug 26 18:51:11 the boot modes are listed in a table in the schematic Aug 26 19:21:17 Does the standard Linux distribution for the BB have a package manager? Aug 26 19:21:30 Could I easily install say ruby? Aug 26 19:21:57 it has opkg, yes Aug 26 19:27:42 Unknown package 'ruby'. Aug 26 19:28:46 opkg search ruby ;) Aug 26 19:29:16 dostoyevsky: also: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/ Aug 26 19:29:34 hmmm... No result for "opkg search ruby" Aug 26 19:29:51 dostoyevsky: of course you need to run opkg update first to get the list of available packages... Aug 26 19:29:59 dostoyevsky: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?pkgname=ruby Aug 26 19:30:04 I see Aug 26 19:32:42 Ok, it seems to be install ruby Aug 26 19:39:13 With my simple benchmark the BB seeems to be twice as fast as my RPI Aug 26 19:40:02 http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?pkgname=clang Aug 26 19:40:05 no clang? Aug 26 19:40:51 http://26-26-54.hardwarebug.org/167 Aug 26 19:40:58 dostoyevsky: ^^^^^ Aug 26 19:41:49 KotH: My compiler is written in C++11. :) Aug 26 19:42:06 at least you didnt use node.js ;-) Aug 26 19:42:24 v8 ? Aug 26 19:42:36 node.js is cancer Aug 26 19:42:54 http://26-26-54.hardwarebug.org/105 Aug 26 19:43:02 Compiling my C++11 program takes 33s on my RPI Aug 26 19:43:25 ^^; Aug 26 19:43:33 one does not simply compile on an embedded system Aug 26 19:44:06 hmmm before that I used to compiler on ALA via Qemu Aug 26 19:44:28 About six times slower than on the RPI Aug 26 19:44:32 have you ever heard about this thing called cross compiler ? :) Aug 26 19:44:46 about a dozen times faster than your rpi, i'd say Aug 26 19:44:53 KotH: llmvm does this naturally these days Aug 26 19:45:09 then why dont you use it? Aug 26 19:45:33 or are you really into this bondage stuff? Aug 26 19:45:54 KotH: Because I am writing a compiler? And so I need to compile and execute all the time... Aug 26 19:46:30 And waiting 30s is really not much by my standards Aug 26 19:46:41 ^^' Aug 26 19:46:45 And I suppose on the BB I could get this down to 15s or so Aug 26 19:47:03 * KotH remembers a time, when he thought that waiting 30s to compile mplayer was a very long wait Aug 26 19:47:41 Also my single pass compiler is really very fast... Like turbo pascal used to be Aug 26 19:48:11 turbo pascal what fscking year did i wake up in? Aug 26 19:48:20 0.00s user 0.03s system 48% cpu 0.061 total Aug 26 19:48:32 My hello world on the RPI... Aug 26 19:53:08 vs 0.5s for compiling a hello worl[Dd via clang Aug 26 20:00:35 Q: is there a list of 3G dongles that can be used with BBB ? i have googled for it... no much luck there Aug 26 20:01:42 Bo|2: basically any that work on linux work on the BBB Aug 26 20:01:52 heheh Aug 26 20:02:07 only tested it on win... no linux devices atm Aug 26 20:02:13 thou i know a bit linux Aug 26 20:02:15 dongle talk! Aug 26 20:02:53 i have a Huawei E3276 but i can get another Aug 26 20:03:14 phone company just sent it for me to test Aug 26 20:03:29 not surprised over the speed but live far out Aug 26 20:04:31 * georgem doesn't want to hear about anyone else's dongle Aug 26 20:05:05 keep your dongle where it belongs Aug 26 20:05:23 ehhh? Aug 26 20:05:57 was it a joke or? Aug 26 20:06:09 :) Aug 26 20:06:49 i assume yes Aug 26 20:06:51 :-D Aug 26 20:07:13 just trying to figure if the one i have is of use or if i should go for something else Aug 26 20:07:29 or even go for a 3g modem so that i have a rj45 plug Aug 26 20:07:41 just want to go as compact i can Aug 26 20:07:50 going to use this for a tracker Aug 26 20:09:13 what sort of tracker? Aug 26 20:09:44 ohh SpeedEvil now where do i know that name from :-D Aug 26 20:09:54 electronics? Aug 26 20:09:56 highaltitude maybe Aug 26 20:10:36 that too Aug 26 20:10:38 SpeedEvil: its for the HAB tracker i'm building Aug 26 20:10:49 just got cape done today Aug 26 20:11:07 need to have it eyeballed very throughly thou Aug 26 20:11:07 You do know that cell networks are generally deprecated for use in tracking? Aug 26 20:11:20 You tend to only get network maybe half the time on the way down Aug 26 20:11:32 BBB... its not for in the air Aug 26 20:11:39 its for a ground based tracker Aug 26 20:11:49 or listning station if you will Aug 26 20:11:53 ah Aug 26 20:11:58 but a very compact and light one Aug 26 20:12:20 goal is that it can fit on a camera tripod Aug 26 20:12:26 and be fully automatic Aug 26 20:12:40 set an leave it... Aug 26 20:12:49 then control from home if need be Aug 26 20:13:02 but should be able to track on its own Aug 26 20:13:06 in the end that is Aug 26 20:13:26 going to make a mockup in scrap wood for the part that moves the yagi Aug 26 20:14:27 now i'm just trying to figure what works with BBB Aug 26 20:14:40 no need to hold on the dongle i have if it will never work Aug 26 20:14:49 or if it needs to much tweaking Aug 26 20:15:46 brb Aug 26 20:16:03 dostoyevsky btw you do not need to add a pullup to boot without button interaction. you can do that through u-boot / uEnv.txt Aug 26 20:16:25 * m_billybob doesnt like modyfying hardware if he doesnt have to Aug 26 20:16:39 modifying too Aug 26 20:18:55 and there, i thought for a second you were an EE Aug 26 20:25:44 figured about the 3G dongle thing here: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2131816 look at last post Aug 26 20:28:19 KotH, hardly Aug 26 20:28:49 KotH i know just enough about the hardware im writting software for to make it work. Aug 26 20:31:02 ^^' Aug 26 20:57:25 luqman: FWIW, upgrading the the kernel to the latest stable one on http://rcn-ee.net/deb/sid-armhf/ fixed the problem. Didn’t work on 3.8.13-bone24, works on 3.8.13-bone26. Aug 26 20:57:29 % printf '%s\n' 'fn main() { println("o hai"); }' >/tmp/hai.rs && rustc -O --target=arm-unknown-linux-gnueabihf --linker=arm-linux-gnueabihf-gcc -o /tmp/hai /tmp/hai.rs && rsync -a /tmp/hai ~/.local/rust/lib/rustc/arm-unknown-linux-gnueabihf/lib/lib*.so drone@drone.local:/tmp/ && ssh drone@drone.local env LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/tmp /tmp/hai Aug 26 20:57:30 o hai Aug 26 20:57:47 ion: sweet :D Aug 26 20:58:04 though i'm still curious why it was failing before Aug 26 20:58:15 Yeah… Aug 26 21:04:41 luqman: Thanks for helping make this happen, rust is an excellent language for my project. :-) Aug 26 21:25:22 KotH: i play a EE on IRC does that count? Aug 26 21:25:44 juup, counts as EE.junior Aug 26 21:31:11 hey guys, which book should i get.. the "Bad to the Bone" or the "Make - Getting Started with Beaglebone"? Aug 26 21:32:34 the better one :) Aug 26 21:32:44 which is? Aug 26 21:32:47 dunno Aug 26 21:32:56 i hardly ever read books on OSS stuff Aug 26 21:32:57 oh. both sucks? Aug 26 21:33:08 they expire faster than i can read them Aug 26 21:33:13 and i'm a fast reader Aug 26 21:33:20 im not :D Aug 26 21:33:32 then they will rot in your hands ;) Aug 26 21:33:40 ha! Aug 26 21:35:29 and actually, i must say i have no clue what value such a book would give me Aug 26 21:35:42 the bone is nothing more than a computer Aug 26 21:35:54 and as such running linux on the bone is the same as running it on a pc Aug 26 21:36:17 the only difference is in that you can connect devices over i2c and spi Aug 26 21:36:26 and for that you have to deal with device tree Aug 26 21:36:35 but that's something that's quite easy to learn Aug 26 21:47:50 prus make it somewhat different Aug 26 22:02:26 hello, I'm trying to configure UART4 on my BB Black with hardware flow control. I can get it to work but with a response delay (from CTS pulled high from neighboring GPIO pin) of avg 2ms. When I connect it to the pair device, which deasserts RTS/CTS when the buffer is full, BBB does not respond immediately and thus I get lost data. I'm thinking I haven't configured the UART right so as to use hardware flow control? Aug 26 22:58:49 Hmmm Aug 26 23:00:16 ds2: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Aug 26 23:02:15 getting that excited over x86 huh? Aug 26 23:03:24 heh unlikely Aug 26 23:10:41 has anyone been able to get UART hardware flow control working on the beaglebone black? Aug 26 23:11:27 why? Aug 26 23:12:28 I'm trying to get it working for a project. Aug 26 23:12:42 why you need hardware flow control? Aug 26 23:13:46 it's talking to a Bluetooth chip which is interrupted by BLE activity, during which it can't receive data. but the BBB still sends Aug 26 23:17:50 does anything special need to be done to have the output the BBB to a vga monitor? Aug 26 23:19:36 itll display out to a tv via hdmi, but im trying to output to a vga monitor, it displays the boot screen and then the signal appears to drop Aug 26 23:26:03 Hmmm Aug 26 23:29:04 its really odd Aug 26 23:30:51 the timings it supports could be the issue Aug 26 23:30:58 check the EDID on it Aug 26 23:31:43 havent ever heard of that Aug 26 23:31:45 ill do some googling Aug 26 23:31:47 THX :) Aug 26 23:35:12 when attempting to boot to microsd, if no display it output to HDMI and the lights are all solid instead of blinking, what would that suggest Aug 26 23:36:18 what does the debug console say? Aug 26 23:37:06 ya thats another issue, can't get the debug to work Aug 26 23:37:13 lol Aug 26 23:37:32 drivers install fine Aug 26 23:38:10 no errors on a win7 64bit machine, when i plug the beaglebone in, it either locks up the machine and causes and reboot/bsod, or it doesnt appear as a device that i can find Aug 26 23:38:16 that one needs more troubleshooting tonight Aug 26 23:40:00 for now im upgrading angstrom while i try to build my ideas around the vga output Aug 26 23:40:19 my test monitor vga only, cnat use the tv...gf is home watching movies Aug 26 23:42:33 anyone on the channel have luck installing arch linux on the BBB? or is debian/ubuntu the choice of reason? Aug 26 23:43:27 thefunc5: I think most use ALA Aug 26 23:44:13 dostoyevsky: ALA? Aug 26 23:44:15 Or are like me too dumb to get anything except angstrom install and hence have to stick to this Aug 26 23:44:24 lol Aug 26 23:44:40 thefunc5: archlinux-arm Aug 26 23:45:03 Note that archlinux-arm and archlinux are two separate things Aug 26 23:45:08 dostoyevsky: thats what i plan, archlinux-arm seems to have a wonderful selection of VERY up to date packages Aug 26 23:45:19 dostoyevsky: they are seperate projects right? Aug 26 23:45:35 heh, people don't stick with angstrom just because they're dumb Aug 26 23:45:37 thefunc5: ALA is a fork of archlinux, IIUC.. Aug 26 23:46:34 dostoyevsky: that i didnt know, i thought it was just a port done by the same devs, kinda like FreeBSD or Debian has its own ARM port Aug 26 23:46:57 thefunc5: Nope. Really different projects Aug 26 23:47:58 dostoyevsky: wow i feel like a fool, is it just a parallel type of fork? as if it split off and just does the same basic path just for ARM? Aug 26 23:48:54 thefunc5: Not sure... feel free to ask in #archlinux-arm or #archlinux Aug 26 23:49:46 But arch linux was always Intel only and just adding platforms is not going to make maintaining stuff easier. Very rapid integration of new stuff has its price Aug 26 23:53:44 !?!?! i didnt know they had their own channel Aug 26 23:54:11 dostoyevsky: what do you have you BBB doing running angstrom? Aug 27 00:31:13 I find it kind of funny that angstrom offers node.js and java but no clang as a package Aug 27 00:32:22 I wonder how much work Google has put into Java to make it work fast enough for Android on arm Aug 27 00:34:02 i dont understand why android is just linux with a java stack on top Aug 27 00:34:08 thats a wierd way to build and OS imho Aug 27 00:35:37 Yeah, especially on a system like arm... but then I haven't really used android Aug 27 00:54:17 android uses java as a language, but its VM is a complete reimplementation of the stack meant for lightweight platforms Aug 27 00:54:22 (dalvik) Aug 27 02:18:24 * mranostay hugs the channel Aug 27 02:22:26 baaa Aug 27 02:22:54 m_billybob: don't escape the hug Aug 27 02:23:04 * m_billybob wasnt here Aug 27 02:23:15 so by default you huged my IRC clients Aug 27 02:23:46 got a decent buzz and um yeah ok that Aug 27 02:24:28 ok, so like what ? groups #beagle hug ? Aug 27 02:27:50 people dont stick with angstrom because they're dumb ? Aug 27 02:28:04 otay . . . . . . Aug 27 02:28:11 * m_billybob is reading up Aug 27 02:28:27 m_billybob: going to ELCE? Aug 27 02:29:00 not even sure what that acro stands for mranostay. but typically i dont show for stuff like that Aug 27 02:29:58 last even i went to was during the "new day" vista release thing. mainly, because wulf and I both made a living from fixing windows machines Aug 27 02:30:02 event* Aug 27 02:40:11 m_billybob: Elite Linux Commandos in Europe Aug 27 02:43:45 prpplague: do we get bb guns at least? Aug 27 02:44:21 mranostay: paint ball guns, and get to stalk ballmer and gates cardboard cut outs **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Aug 27 02:59:58 2013