**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jan 09 02:59:57 2021 Jan 09 03:05:16 whats the input group again Jan 09 03:06:24 zmatt Jan 09 03:06:33 is he here? Jan 09 03:06:42 that's what I'm wondering Jan 09 03:06:53 he helped me earlier but I forgot something he told me Jan 09 03:06:57 hahah Jan 09 03:06:59 me too Jan 09 03:07:05 can you do me a favor though Jan 09 03:07:08 if you tipe groups Jan 09 03:07:11 yeah sure Jan 09 03:07:17 can you paste your output Jan 09 03:07:28 are you on a beaglebone black Jan 09 03:07:29 the input group is "input" Jan 09 03:07:49 I'm on a beaglebone green wireless Jan 09 03:08:01 oh heard bad things about that one Jan 09 03:08:14 yeah bbgw kinda sucks Jan 09 03:08:15 hey zmatt, remember earlier when I asked about the wifi info? I forgot where the bb_wl18xx file is Jan 09 03:08:29 /etc/default/ Jan 09 03:08:40 well so far it's been alright I guess Jan 09 03:08:42 thanks Jan 09 03:08:57 just curious, what bad things did you hear about it? so that I know what to look out for Jan 09 03:09:06 groups defines your access right ? Jan 09 03:10:36 also, when you want help with something, ask your question. don't merely poke me and withhold your question until I respond, since 1. if I see your poke while you're not paying attention then I won't know why you poked me and by the time you notice I was awake I could easily be gone again 2. don't expect help from a specific person, asking your question allows anyone to help Jan 09 03:12:04 Zalymo: the bbgw removed ethernet but instead of reusing the pins that were freed up for the wifi chip (everything the wl18xx needs is available on those same pins) like the black-wireless does, it sacrifices a whole bunch of expansion header pins for it instead Jan 09 03:12:24 making them unavailable for use by you or a cape Jan 09 03:13:16 (which also means you can't assume any cape designed for the beaglebone black will also work on the green-wireless, while you _can_ assume that for the black-wireless) Jan 09 03:14:55 seems like it maybe sacrifices the expansion header pins that were freed up because of the extra usb ports Jan 09 03:16:11 it also ties usb vbus to vdd_5v which means that powering the beaglebone via the cape headers causes the green-wireless to backfeed power out of the usb device port, which is quite bad and can potentially damage the computer to which you connect it Jan 09 03:16:24 no, usb has nothing to do with the expansion headers Jan 09 03:16:29 it just added a usb hub Jan 09 03:17:56 pin-comparison of BBGW vs BBB/BBBW: https://pastebin.com/Fi8Vh0n5 Jan 09 03:18:28 zmatt: is there a way to see what group input has access to? I ask because the bbai does not have that group so I am thinking things were divided up differently. I suspect I have that same problem where I need to add debian to the "input" group Jan 09 03:19:17 doesn't _have_ the group? that sounds very unlikely Jan 09 03:19:46 so if it's powered from any cape, then it could damage the host computer? Jan 09 03:20:00 debian not being added to it, that's very likely since that's missing in the current IoT image (no reason to think that would be different for am335x images vs am572x images) Jan 09 03:20:19 so just do "sudo adduser debian input" and then log out and back in Jan 09 03:21:40 Zalymo: the 5V supply from the cape and the 5V supply from the computer's usb port are connected together inside the green-wireless... connecting two power supplies is generally speaking a bad idea Jan 09 03:22:36 it will probably also cause misbehaviour of the usb port since vbus is not merely used for powering, it also signals to the device that it's connected to a (powered-on) host Jan 09 03:23:15 ok that did it Jan 09 03:23:18 thank you sir Jan 09 03:23:29 why do they not just have you added by default Jan 09 03:23:40 which also means that with vbus being unintentionally provided by the cape, it can no longer detect being disconnected from the host and instead it will just be missing communications that it's expecting Jan 09 03:24:05 Mattb0000ne: pretty sure it's already been reported so hopefully that's fixed in the next images Jan 09 03:25:09 But how could a cape miss communications it's expecting if it's powered off since it's no longer connected to the board? Jan 09 03:25:46 if the cape is powering the beaglebone then disconnecting usb does not result in power loss Jan 09 03:26:09 Oh, so if I never use a cape to power the board, then I shouldn't have anything to worry about in that regard Jan 09 03:26:54 correct, then you only have the expansion header compatibility issues to worry about... well, kinda Jan 09 03:27:23 some capes use the same pin (which on the BBB connects to the 5V barrel jack) when they expect to draw more power than can be reasonably supplied via usb Jan 09 03:27:47 green-wireless ties that to usb, so the cape ends up drawing overcurrent from usb Jan 09 03:27:57 one more thing you mentioned that since the bbai has a different setup with the HDMI so you now have to specify which screen you want to work with how do you do that Jan 09 03:28:26 Mattb0000ne: uhh, for what software? Jan 09 03:29:20 Mattb0000ne: the input group thing has indeed been fixed: https://github.com/beagleboard/Latest-Images/issues/29 Jan 09 03:29:37 Are the capes made by Seeed Studio safe to use? (for example, the Grove sensor connector cape) Jan 09 03:30:03 never heard of it Jan 09 03:30:34 that's a pile of four words that doesn't make any sense in my head Jan 09 03:31:04 get the v2. Jan 09 03:31:04 have you experimented with the Grove sensors? Jan 09 03:31:12 It is green. Jan 09 03:31:17 v2? Jan 09 03:31:18 Not black like the v1. Jan 09 03:31:30 version2. Jan 09 03:31:42 version2 of the grove cape? Jan 09 03:31:47 Yes. Jan 09 03:31:59 I think it just uses UART2 or i2c2. Jan 09 03:31:59 zmatt: so the next set of images since the latest on the website are from april? Jan 09 03:32:12 Let me go and make sure. Jan 09 03:32:17 given how seeed fucked up the green-wireless _and_ completely failed to document the fact that it occupies expansion header pins on the expansion header diagrams on the green-wireless wifi page... I wouldn't assume anything with seeed and always double-check Jan 09 03:32:32 Alright. That's probably the only cape I'll bother using with the green wireless after hearing all of these issues Jan 09 03:32:47 Zalymo: what is the thing you're talking about? Jan 09 03:33:23 since grove is mostly a meaningless concept... it's a connector with power and two data pins whose usage can be completely different between modules Jan 09 03:33:25 you know the two Grove sensor connectors on the green wireless? Seeed has a cape with more of those connectors Jan 09 03:34:08 One of the grove connectors is an i2c and the other is uart. Jan 09 03:34:28 On the Cape, there is a couple different types of technologies on it. Jan 09 03:34:45 I mean, even if some of those connectors connect to the pins used by wifi you could just choose to not use those connectors (although adding a long stub trace could deteriorate signal integrity of the communications between processor and wifi chip) Jan 09 03:34:56 can someone just link what cape we're talking about? Jan 09 03:35:26 do you mean "Grove Base Cape for BeagleBone Green V2" ? Jan 09 03:35:45 yeah, that one Jan 09 03:35:48 there's no "Grove sensor connector cape", when you reference something please be more precise with words Jan 09 03:35:48 just found the link Jan 09 03:36:18 https://wiki.seeedstudio.com/Grove_Base_Cape_for_BeagleBone_v2/ is what I found. Jan 09 03:36:50 They have an older v and a "newer" one that is called v2. Jan 09 03:37:15 I think before there was a BBG, the Grove Cape was for the BBB. Jan 09 03:37:23 v1. Jan 09 03:37:38 yeah, I just saw the v1 Jan 09 03:37:50 There is a v2 and it is old too. Jan 09 03:37:59 It still works from what I understand. Jan 09 03:38:04 let's see it uses... P9.{11,13,14,16,19,20,24-27} Jan 09 03:39:16 so it does overlap with both grove connectors on the green-wireless itself, but not with the wifi/bluetooth chip Jan 09 03:39:24 Nice! Jan 09 03:39:29 wait Jan 09 03:39:36 Ut oh. Jan 09 03:40:04 well, it does overlap with bluetooth audio, I don't know if that's enabled by default Jan 09 03:40:45 if it is then the beaglebone will drive an audio clock onto P9.25, which connects to.... Jan 09 03:41:42 So, the Cape actually cancels out the two onboard grove connectors to utilize them onboard the Cape itself? Jan 09 03:42:04 pin 2 of J5 and pin 1 of J6 .. weird, going to two grove connectors like that Jan 09 03:42:26 set_: "cancel out" is a weird word to use... they just overlap in their usage Jan 09 03:42:36 just as apparently different grove connectors on this cape also overlap Jan 09 03:43:02 Oh. When you say overlap, does that mean that both will read and write? Jan 09 03:43:23 For instance, the UART4... Jan 09 03:43:28 (note also that on the grove cape they all go through a bidirectional level shifter, while the grove connectors on the green-wireless connect directly to the processor and must therefore never be exposed to 5V) Jan 09 03:43:43 Aw! That is neat. Jan 09 03:43:43 it just means they're electrically connected together, to the same processor pin Jan 09 03:43:49 Oh. Jan 09 03:44:13 level shift me up, Scotty! Jan 09 03:44:35 Zalymo: Did that help? Jan 09 03:45:22 yes, though I'm a newbie to electronics so what I really got from it was: don't supply power through capes and don't use older capes Jan 09 03:45:39 old/new doesn't say much if anything Jan 09 03:46:31 electronics! Digital, analog, metal on silicon, and power! Jan 09 03:46:37 bzzt! Jan 09 03:46:43 zmatt: when you say the bug has been addressed it will be in the next release? Jan 09 03:47:43 when they say 2000-04-06 Jan 09 03:48:13 gonna just avoid capes all together on the green wireless.. more of an experimental board for me to learn about embedded linux and IoT anyway Jan 09 03:48:25 that is april so I the fix would not be in yet right since it looks like he did this a bit after on the 13th of april Jan 09 03:48:36 just get a black man Jan 09 03:48:43 save yourself a lot of headache Jan 09 03:48:47 what are you trying to do Jan 09 03:48:55 yeah, but then I'd have to spend another $80 Jan 09 03:49:14 I just wanted to play around with sensors and see about storing the data on a server or something, not sure Jan 09 03:49:26 cool Jan 09 03:52:26 I have a BBGW. It works fine. Capes are fine w/ the BBG and BBGW. Jan 09 03:53:14 I like to collect the Capes, some. I had trouble at first w/ the grove connectors w/ some of the grove modules. Jan 09 03:53:15 But... Jan 09 03:53:39 The only reason that was a fact was b/c I did not know much and some grove modules are 5v only and not 3.3v. Jan 09 03:54:18 You have to be careful when choosing a grove module. The ones that are 5v are not for directly connecting to the BBG or BBGW. Jan 09 03:54:34 I am pretty sure. Jan 09 03:55:41 The reason I say that is this...the pins are 3.3v tolerate b/c if other voltage was to get to the processor, am335x, the chip may be exposed and corrupt, die, or worse. bzzt. Jan 09 03:56:16 Hmm. Jan 09 03:57:43 oh he left Jan 09 03:58:04 well... pin usage of the grove cape: https://pastebin.com/5gEEEqnZ Jan 09 03:58:45 Yep. Zalymo took off. Jan 09 03:58:57 the design of this thing is pretty mysterious to me Jan 09 03:59:07 How so? Jan 09 03:59:12 like, I don't understand why so much stuff is tied together Jan 09 03:59:21 Oh. Jan 09 03:59:22 I mean, the i2c bus is fine of course Jan 09 03:59:35 But? Jan 09 04:00:08 but I don't understand the other three shared pins, nor that one of the headers has only one of its two pins connected to the beaglebone Jan 09 04:01:05 So, it is just feeding the Cape w/out info. going back to the BBB? Jan 09 04:01:49 what is a bus exactly Jan 09 04:01:53 set_: ??? Jan 09 04:02:02 like I hear chatter about L3 bus Jan 09 04:02:10 is that something behind the scenes Jan 09 04:02:17 can you chose what bus you use Jan 09 04:02:20 Mattb0000ne: there's no L3 bus, you probably mean L3 interconnect Jan 09 04:02:34 So, if I were to use the Cape to r/w, not all peripherals can be read from? Jan 09 04:02:40 a bus is a collection of signal lines that interconnects two or more devices Jan 09 04:03:33 like the uart to a PRU? Jan 09 04:04:54 generally you only use the word "bus" for something that is in principle capable of connecting more than 2 devices Jan 09 04:05:04 it has implied connotations of sharing Jan 09 04:05:21 Anyway, I am out. I am just reading now. I think I may have scared off the fellow/lady that wanted to learn about the BBG(W). Jan 09 04:05:33 Yay to me! Jan 09 04:06:07 like, an i2c bus is just two wires but you can attach a whole bunch of devices to it Jan 09 04:06:43 spi requires a chip select line per slave, but the other three lines can be shared between all slaves on an spi bus Jan 09 04:08:58 but the term has become kinda vague Jan 09 04:10:23 ok Jan 09 04:11:26 the L3 you mentioned is the main interconnect inside the AM335x, which is not actually a bus but a network... but it still kinda _behaves_ like a bus, just like an ethernet network behaves mostly like you're all on the same physical medium, even though in reality it's a collection of full-duplex point-to-point links with switches in between Jan 09 04:15:05 and in schematics software a bus is just a collection of nets grouped together into one (drawn as a thick line), which can be visually neater (but requires looking at labels to determine what exactly connects to what): https://image.easyeda.com/images/easyeda-228_Schematic_Bus.png Jan 09 04:15:34 all these meanings are sort of related ;) Jan 09 04:17:51 when you are doing low level programming do you need to know this stuff Jan 09 04:27:26 this is electronics, not programming Jan 09 07:08:36 https://elinux.org/Beagleboard:Latest-images-testing Are the images on this website more up-to-date than the images on the actual beagleBoard website? I noticed that the images on the wiki are from August 2020, and the ones on BeagleBoard are from April 2020 Jan 09 08:32:23 I guess he didn't actually want an answer Jan 09 16:33:24 so I connect to both the BBB and BBai. I have updated my host list to account for this. When I log into the BBB I do not get any sort of warning but for the AI this pops up Jan 09 16:33:25 Warning: Permanently added 'bbai' (ECDSA) to the list of known hosts. Jan 09 16:33:36 what would be driving this Jan 09 17:26:17 is it doing it everytime you connect or just the 1st time you connected to the AI over that interface? Jan 09 17:26:44 you can always mess with the ssh config file to suppress the messaging Jan 09 17:27:06 normally its just telling you that it sees a new key and is adding it to the knownhost file Jan 09 17:28:09 personally i don't get why they messed up the networking structure so much on the bbb's and am just starting to play with the ai's myself Jan 09 17:29:06 finally i just made my own debian based distro with things the way i want to work so i eliminated all the cloud and bonescript and setup the networking stack to the way i am used to Jan 09 17:29:56 it gets to be frustrating chasing down the network stuff with the current distro's and the way they have pretty much passed all control to systemd Jan 09 17:31:15 to avoid this ssh list error you can simply delete the corresponding line from .ssh/known_hosts or just create a .ssh/config file where you add a new profile, where "UserKnownHostsFile=/dev/null" tells the system to not store the key upon connection Jan 09 17:31:59 for most i quess making the bbb work like some arduino board but for streamlined embedded use your just better building your own rootfs and using the kernel and uboot you need to use Jan 09 17:37:59 buzzmarshall: it does it every time I ssh in Jan 09 17:38:28 if I can ignore it I can live with it. I have bigger fish to fry Jan 09 17:59:40 if your able to log in ok its probably ok just to suppress the message with the config file Jan 09 18:00:54 my bbb's ok that ways but ive not really messed with the ai yet Jan 09 18:03:23 soon as i am done tweaking my rootfs to what i want i am hoping it will work on the ai without to much messing around Jan 09 18:03:52 the AI looks like a nice board and i can use the extra memory Jan 09 18:38:06 cool it would be nice to have someone more knowledgeable than I get there hands dirty I need the help! Jan 09 18:38:17 i wish zmatt would switch nudge nudge Jan 09 18:42:10 what would be my display on bbb if it is not auto detected Jan 09 18:42:17 the beagles are still relatively new to me as well but i've many years messing around reverse engineering embedded stuff Jan 09 18:42:18 so echo $DISPLAY gives me nothing Jan 09 18:42:36 and setting it does not help either Jan 09 18:42:53 usually the default if you have something connected is :0 Jan 09 18:43:05 I am not sure how the capes fit in that schema Jan 09 18:45:31 ya thats kinda the area i am currently messing with while tyring to learn Jan 09 18:46:00 so far its mosly just been console via a serial setup or ssh into the board Jan 09 18:47:16 but the other day i finally built a image running xfce4 on debian 10 running the 5.9 kernel and am trying to understand more about the video/graphics part as i finally got linuxcnc to compile and run on the bbb Jan 09 18:48:27 capes are then the next thing on my hit list as i want to build a custom one to run a cnc machine i built for building guitars Jan 09 18:49:20 thats another reason i wanted to have a clean build so i can see exactly how all the parts interact Jan 09 18:49:57 the existing images i find confusing as ive not been on these long enough to understand the why's of the way things are Jan 09 18:52:29 learning the use the sysfs file system is a good way to see things at a hardware level when it comes to pins and how the device tree stuff works Jan 09 18:58:31 looking at my $DISPLAY under ssh is empty as well Jan 09 18:59:31 that sounds really cool Jan 09 18:59:40 so you are making a shopbot for guitars almost Jan 09 19:02:44 if i log into the desktop while using the hdmi and my monitor i see the DISPLAY=:0.0 is the setting Jan 09 19:04:24 yeah my cape is going in through the pins Jan 09 19:04:28 not the hdmi Jan 09 19:04:46 zmatt said something about a change where the hdmi is completely seperate now Jan 09 19:04:50 i build a 4 color 3d printer a couple of years with a 24"x36" build table and have since expanded it to 50" on the x to handle neck thru building and rebuilt the tool holder to take a routers as well as the 4 color head Jan 09 19:05:00 where before you had to disable to the HDMI to get your lcd cape to work Jan 09 19:05:11 k Jan 09 19:05:17 that is awsome Jan 09 19:05:28 when I get more time and money I would like to have a little maker shop Jan 09 19:05:43 someplace here i got a wavetech 7" touchscreen i want to try and get running on this as well Jan 09 19:06:04 i would probably stick to furniture since I do not have the hand dexterity for guitar =) Jan 09 19:06:22 just not quite got their yet as i need to better understand the overlay setup so i can adapt the older wavetech driver to the newer debian Jan 09 19:06:28 yeah I just got this 7" panel workign on the bbai working with lorforlinux Jan 09 19:06:35 took a bit of work Jan 09 19:06:55 yeah I would be interested in watching you do that Jan 09 19:07:28 I was working off a google summer of code project and was able to get away with switching a driver to get it to work Jan 09 19:07:39 it was pure luck and trial and error Jan 09 19:07:40 once i get something a bit more solid i was gonna put something up on my github that way others looking for a clean debian build had something to mess with Jan 09 19:09:06 i kinda killed the last year messing around with a bunch of other sbc's looking for something powerful enough to handle the machine without having to use a pc Jan 09 19:09:38 so i am kinda behind on the beagles but am really intriqued by the pru's units Jan 09 19:10:46 and most of the other mainstream sbcs like the n2 and rockchippros are more based as media devices which no longer holds my interest Jan 09 19:11:54 ive been using linux since linus first released his kernel many years ago so i am comfortable that way Jan 09 19:15:00 but being old school its hard to find linux distro's setup the way i like so one tends to have to create things the way you want them Jan 09 19:16:23 i like the beagles tho as they seem to work with linux really well Jan 09 19:17:31 being a assembly guy im looking forward to playing with the pru's once i get there Jan 09 19:18:40 with the little ram thats on the bbb im suprised this bbb running xfce4 and rdp works as good as it does Jan 09 19:20:54 i can remote in from one of my main ubuntu workstations to the bbb and have linuxcnc running while trying to learn more about the graphix part of it so i can get some panels and then will try and get this 7" display to work with it Jan 09 19:27:00 sorry meant to ask Jan 09 19:27:06 whats lorforlinux? Jan 09 19:31:07 brb... gotta reboot this machine Jan 09 19:32:48 he is a guy on this irc Jan 09 19:32:52 that is his handle Jan 09 19:33:02 afk for a bit house chores Jan 09 19:44:43 https://elinux.org/Beagleboard:Latest-images-testing Should I install one of the newer images from this image testing site or just stick with the release on the beagle board site? Jan 09 19:45:17 buzzmarshall: pru is cool Jan 09 19:47:07 Zalymo: I don't think the differences are huge on am335x Jan 09 19:47:28 but using the official release image is probably safest Jan 09 19:48:06 sounds good Jan 09 19:48:17 Zalymo: also: https://pastebin.com/5gEEEqnZ Jan 09 19:48:34 summary of what connects to what on that grove cape Jan 09 19:49:04 its design is fairly mysterious to me Jan 09 19:49:31 sweet thanks man Jan 09 19:49:36 with the seemingly unnecessary reuse of pins Jan 09 22:47:24 if my host machine is connected to the board's wifi, then are any internet requests processed on the board before being sent to my host machine? Jan 09 22:47:52 if, for example, I visit a website page on my host machine Jan 10 00:21:10 do I need to do anything special to run an x11 server Jan 10 00:21:21 on the arm architecture Jan 10 00:29:20 that question is too vague to have a meaningful answer... but the direct answer is "no" since the cpu architecture is of little to no relevance to x11 **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jan 10 03:00:21 2021