**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Nov 11 03:00:00 2014
Nov 11 15:56:58 <chall> GodGinrai, to answer your question from yesterday: http://rack.github.io/
Nov 11 15:57:51 <chall> I also figured out I needed to be more explicit about the content types.  I'm not sure what enyo.Ajax sends by default, but setting it to application/json seems to do the trick
Nov 11 15:58:07 <GodGinrai> chall: so it is like that node webserver thing, but for ruby?
Nov 11 15:59:10 <GodGinrai> enyo.Ajax sends application/x-www-form-urlencoded by default
Nov 11 15:59:13 <chall> Express?  Sorta, yeah
Nov 11 16:07:02 <GodGinrai> I'm not sure why it does that, honestly
Nov 11 16:07:06 <GodGinrai> it's a weird default
Nov 11 20:02:37 <Cage1___> hi all. i'm trying to hire a javascript developer. how would people respond to the following: "I know that Enyo is definitely used by a variety of other tech companies, although from what I can tell, it is not used as widely as some JS frameworks (e.g., Angular, Ember, etc.). Of course, one of its strengths lies in cross-browser and cross-device
Nov 11 20:02:38 <Cage1___> compatibility. I see how it works for [your company], but I do wonder about its future, given what happened to webOS and the enyojs team"?
Nov 11 20:04:55 <DougReeder> The enyojs channel is a better place for that question, but the relevant question is: What is the likelihood that the current maintainers of this framework will continue their effort?  LG is pushing Enyo for their smart TV apps.
Nov 11 20:05:57 <DougReeder> … and the enyojs team is now emloyed at LG Silicon Valler.
Nov 11 20:07:44 <summatusmentis> this is the enyojs channel
Nov 11 20:08:10 <DougReeder> Ooops, sorry.  I’m on too many channels :-(
Nov 11 20:08:25 <summatusmentis> :)
Nov 11 20:10:16 <dmanderson> What happened to the EnyoJS team?
Nov 11 20:10:26 <dmanderson> Future of EnyoJS is strong
Nov 11 20:10:36 <DougReeder> They moved to LG.
Nov 11 20:10:58 <dmanderson> LOL right, I’m asking what happened in terms of “why is it bad"
Nov 11 20:11:24 <summatusmentis> enyo's bounced around a lot over the last couple years
Nov 11 20:11:29 <summatusmentis> it looks "unstable" externally
Nov 11 20:11:50 <dmanderson> I can agree with that.
Nov 11 20:12:17 * Semanticfire_2 tunes in
Nov 11 20:12:21 <summatusmentis> which may imply things like "not going to continue being developed" or "uncertain future"
Nov 11 20:12:22 <dmanderson> I’m just curious how it’s percieved in the community
Nov 11 20:12:30 <dmanderson> For those of you who don’t know, I’m a core member
Nov 11 20:12:52 <dmanderson> So this is all very facinating for me, as I would love to make these things smoother.
Nov 11 20:13:11 <summatusmentis> I use it, and basically we've got intertia to stop us from changing
Nov 11 20:13:13 <Cage1___> as outsiders, it seems abandoned. multiple times over
Nov 11 20:13:17 <dmanderson> The changes with LG sucked away our Dev Rel peoples, so we’ve def been out of any spotlight for a while.
Nov 11 20:13:20 <Semanticfire_2> dmanderson, you know my take on it, interested if I ventilated it here ?
Nov 11 20:13:33 <dmanderson> Dude by all means, please do vent.
Nov 11 20:13:37 <Semanticfire_2> :)
Nov 11 20:13:42 <summatusmentis> but there are benefits to using a bigger/more well known framework
Nov 11 20:13:44 <dmanderson> By no means is Enyo perfect, so the more I know the better :)
Nov 11 20:13:48 <Cage1___> i'll let semanticfire go first :)
Nov 11 20:14:27 <Semanticfire_2> okay, documentation lets start there
Nov 11 20:14:58 <Semanticfire_2> it could use some samples etc, wouldn't it be a lot easier if people could actually fork the docs on github, add a example and then do a pull request ?
Nov 11 20:15:12 <DougReeder> One can go with jQuery because it’s popular, and jQuery itelf has an org maintaining it - but most jQuery modules are not maintained, so the ecosystem is weak.
Nov 11 20:15:51 <Semanticfire_2> I've hit to many times that I didn't get what the docs meant, and a jsfiddle from a insider here solved the problem
Nov 11 20:15:58 <dmanderson> Agree more samples, better apps. New docs are on the way, our Technical writer Jim is combing through all of our upgraded source, you can generate new docs your self if you’d like with master based on JSDOC 3
Nov 11 20:16:12 <Semanticfire_2> 2) fix all deadlinks
Nov 11 20:16:26 <dmanderson> Noted
Nov 11 20:16:27 <DougReeder> The MVC stuff is vastly better documented than it was a year and a half ago.
Nov 11 20:16:42 <DougReeder> as in, its actually usable now.
Nov 11 20:16:43 <dmanderson> We’ll be doing away with the whole Enyo API viewer in the coming months
Nov 11 20:16:53 <summatusmentis> you're doing away with it?!?
Nov 11 20:16:54 <summatusmentis> I like it!
Nov 11 20:16:59 <dmanderson> It’s slow.
Nov 11 20:17:08 <summatusmentis> there's something replacing it?
Nov 11 20:17:12 <dmanderson> Yes of course.
Nov 11 20:17:17 <summatusmentis> ok, that's all I care about really
Nov 11 20:17:19 <dmanderson> Faster better docs.
Nov 11 20:17:23 <summatusmentis> yeah, ok
Nov 11 20:17:26 <dmanderson> The current viewer parses enyo in real time
Nov 11 20:17:26 <DougReeder> The current API viewer indexes in the browser - takes forever to load.
Nov 11 20:17:28 <dmanderson> every time you load it.
Nov 11 20:18:02 <dmanderson> Popularity of the Framework is a sore point.
Nov 11 20:18:18 <dmanderson> Would be great if we could create a job segment like Angular has
Nov 11 20:18:22 <dmanderson> and EmberJS is growing into
Nov 11 20:19:39 <DougReeder> Enyo Sampler has grown unweildy - I can’t readily find a particular part I remember existing.
Nov 11 20:19:53 <Cage1___> #dmanderson, you hit the nail on the head. it's a catch 22, hard to get new developers because it appears stagnant
Nov 11 20:20:05 <Semanticfire_2> +1
Nov 11 20:20:12 <Cage1___> my sense is because of its history and because of lack of communication
Nov 11 20:20:36 <dmanderson> Major lack of communication, bear with me while I push push push for more open communication with the community.
Nov 11 20:20:45 <Semanticfire_2> 3) I've posted my grunt build setup a while ago here on the channel, but I have 0 feedback on it
Nov 11 20:20:50 <Cage1___> and huge time between updates...
Nov 11 20:21:11 <dmanderson> It takes time to chirp in peoples ears :) I’ve been told I’ll be allowed to get people together for an announcement in January re: Enyo the Future.
Nov 11 20:21:20 <Cage1___> (as in release of code as well as communication updates)
Nov 11 20:21:27 <dmanderson> yes, we don’t publically release code as often as we should.
Nov 11 20:22:00 <dmanderson> Where we get hindered with LG, we are focused on internal priorities more often than not.
Nov 11 20:23:12 <Cage1___> my recommendations: 1) post on the blog more frequently, even it's just small things. if nothing has been posted in 1 month, it looks dead 2) more frequent code releases, that may be small in nature, but at least it gives perception of progress 3) maybe developers using enyojs to write a small thing (or writing the first draft on their behalf) on advantages
Nov 11 20:23:39 <Semanticfire_2> dmanderson, I'm more then happy to showcase my work
Nov 11 20:23:44 <Cage1___> well, if that's LG's culture and enyojs is primarily for their internal use, say so and kill it for public use
Nov 11 20:23:50 <Semanticfire_2> firefighters using enyojs, what more do you want ?
Nov 11 20:23:54 <dmanderson> :-D
Nov 11 20:24:12 <dmanderson> Cage1__ : I’ve played devils advocate and brought it up a few times.
Nov 11 20:25:12 <dmanderson> Would this group still consider EnyoJS, EnyoJS, if a future version broke backwards compat like Angular 2?
Nov 11 20:25:22 <Semanticfire_2> BTW +1 to Cage1___ 3 points
Nov 11 20:25:37 <Semanticfire_2> or would that be +3?
Nov 11 20:25:43 <dmanderson> Tons of points :)
Nov 11 20:25:48 <DougReeder> Breaking compatability for a third time would be rough.
Nov 11 20:25:55 <Semanticfire_2> DougReeder, +1
Nov 11 20:26:29 <Semanticfire_2> you can't get adoption for something that keeps changing
Nov 11 20:26:48 <Cage1___> to be honest, there's great opportunity in it but it cant be just focused on TV only if LG's goal is to get more developers for their TV apps. it's a relativley small market - if enyo is useful for ALL web apps, then they are more likely to get some percentage of those developers working on TV apps. i.e., more total enyo developers = more people interested =
Nov 11 20:26:48 <Cage1___> more people developing TV apps
Nov 11 20:27:28 <Cage1___> #dmanderson - definitely not.
Nov 11 20:27:38 <DougReeder> Or, at least, Enyo seen as a small player, more than just a niche of no general interest.
Nov 11 20:27:43 <Cage1___> but angular 2 can get away with it because it's angular
Nov 11 20:28:07 <Cage1___> +1 with #semanticfire_2
Nov 11 20:29:51 <Cage1___> btw, is there any one feature that makes enyo shine over other frameworks?
Nov 11 20:30:19 <DougReeder> Adapting to multiple screen sizes
Nov 11 20:30:27 <dmanderson> at this point, the loader is the most prominate feature of the core framework
Nov 11 20:31:08 <DougReeder> …and multple devices.
Nov 11 20:31:08 <dmanderson> Still not many solutions that deal with pipeline assets along with application code
Nov 11 20:31:26 <dmanderson> I would argue multiple devices is a benefit of Onyx, but not Enyo directly.
Nov 11 20:31:28 <dmanderson> Onyx is ugly
Nov 11 20:31:29 <dmanderson> and out dated
Nov 11 20:31:39 <Cage1___> #dougreeder = devil's advocate would say, responsive design takes care of that. #dmanderson = as a developer, i would have no idea why i should care about loader or how it would ease my development
Nov 11 20:32:11 <DougReeder> Responsive design works best when its designed in, not stapled on.
Nov 11 20:32:45 <dmanderson> Good point Cage1__
Nov 11 20:34:18 <Semanticfire_2> what are the other frameworks that take a complete javascript approach compared to the more declarative approach like e.g. bootstrap ?
Nov 11 20:34:34 <DougReeder> Composition of components is another of Enyo’s standout points.
Nov 11 20:35:45 <dmanderson> ReactJS is JS heavy
Nov 11 20:36:37 <DougReeder> Dojo is shifting to favor a programmatic approach.
Nov 11 20:36:40 <Cage1___> anyone here familiar with angularjs or emberjs? what are the biggest issues you've had with them? are those issues solved with enyo?
Nov 11 20:37:27 <dmanderson> No big issues with either really, both are pretty good
Nov 11 20:37:36 <dmanderson> EmberJS has really good community, and some good dev tools behind it.
Nov 11 20:38:58 <Semanticfire_2> I really enjoy the 'kind' infrastructure haven't seen that in anything I've tried
Nov 11 20:39:31 <Semanticfire_2> what I don't like is that getting started is to cumbersome, hence my grunt skeleton
Nov 11 20:39:51 <Semanticfire_2> another thing you probably should put in the appendix is all the webos references
Nov 11 20:40:13 <Cage1___> so #dmanderson, you're arguing we should just go with angularjs isntead of enyojs :)
Nov 11 20:41:06 <dmanderson> I’d honestly have little to no arguments, to persuade you for hte benefit of your self, to NOT go with a framework that isn’t Enyo.
Nov 11 20:41:25 <dmanderson> Last thing I want to do, is be dishonest about something as critical as application Framework.
Nov 11 20:42:00 <dmanderson> But Enyo itself isn’t dead, and support isn’t dropping anytime soon.
Nov 11 20:42:44 <DougReeder> If you use an uncommon framework, you need to be recruiting devs who care more about the company environment than the particular tools used.
Nov 11 20:44:19 <dmanderson> Absolutely
Nov 11 20:44:28 <Semanticfire_2> I think a developer who claims he can only work with a certain toolkit is not that good of a developer...
Nov 11 20:44:37 <Semanticfire_2> but that is a opinion ;)
Nov 11 20:44:59 <DougReeder> I respect them less, but they can be useful in the right place.
Nov 11 20:45:28 <dmanderson> These frameworks are so monolithic though, getting focused on a single framework, esp a JavaScript open source one, is a good idea.
Nov 11 20:45:45 <DougReeder> Especially for junior devs
Nov 11 20:45:55 <Semanticfire_2> codemonkeys :)
Nov 11 20:46:03 <Semanticfire_2> anyway we are drifting off ;)
Nov 11 20:50:27 <Cage1___> #semanticfire_2 true but when hiring people usually look at experience in a framework and junior developers want to gain experience in a marketable framework
Nov 11 20:52:50 <summatusmentis> frankly, in the context of an academic lab, I've wondered if I made a bad decision going with Enyo
Nov 11 20:52:54 <DougReeder> Those are valid points.
Nov 11 20:53:02 <summatusmentis> given most people who'd be taking over my codebase won't know it
Nov 11 20:54:01 <Semanticfire_2> well I've seen plenty of code written for a popular framework which was obfuscated good enough to make it look like chinese ( which I do no speak or read )
Nov 11 20:54:25 <summatusmentis> that said, I like enyo a lot
Nov 11 20:54:36 <summatusmentis> and it's too big of a change to transition right now
Nov 11 20:54:48 <summatusmentis> (and we've got a lot of other projects that have weird frameworks too)
Nov 11 20:58:21 <Semanticfire_2> so where does that leave the discussion ?
Nov 11 20:58:34 <Semanticfire_2> ( btw longest discussion I've seen in a while here )
Nov 11 20:59:21 <summatusmentis> my understanding is that dmanderson was trying to get feedback
Nov 11 20:59:26 <DougReeder> Know your org’s culture, recruit people compatible with it.
Nov 11 21:05:24 <dmanderson> Yup, all the feed back we can get the better, even if it’s down on Enyo.
Nov 11 21:13:00 <summatusmentis> dmanderson: frankly, I'd benefit a lot from an ability to say "these enyo concepts map to what you're used to seeing in other frameworks"
Nov 11 21:13:07 <summatusmentis> in terms of passing off code
Nov 11 21:14:00 <summatusmentis> also, something much more complete in terms of "upgrade from 2.2 to 2.4" would be useful, because that's gonna be a lot of work, but I want the new data binding stuff
Nov 11 21:27:10 <Semanticfire_2> redo the bootplate
Nov 11 21:31:51 <dmanderson> yeah the bootplate
Nov 11 21:32:04 <dmanderson> I’m the last fan of the build process all together
Nov 11 21:34:44 <Semanticfire_2> but instead of boiling the ocean you are more than welcome to take my code
Nov 11 21:35:06 <dmanderson> LOL
Nov 11 21:36:48 <Semanticfire_2> with some credits ;)
Nov 11 21:39:30 <Semanticfire_2> okay time to close here
Nov 11 21:39:31 <Semanticfire_2> night
Nov 11 21:39:34 <dmanderson> later!
Nov 11 22:32:23 <Cage1___> my argument was that you can more thoroughly learn the concepts / theory in a less well known framework, kind of like when they used LISP / Scheme in my comp sci class instead of Java or C - i.e., to teach us the theory of comp sci
Nov 11 22:33:33 <dmanderson> True, but then again look at the employability of Lisp vs Java
Nov 11 22:33:39 <Cage1___> but at the end of the day, it's up to LG if it wants to promote its framework or not. that means communication and frequent release cycles and engagement with community. if LG things it can  just put something out there and have people automagically start developing for their TVs, sorry it aint gonna happen
Nov 11 22:34:05 <Cage1___> yes, but this was MIT, they don't do stuff to churn out real world programmers :)
Nov 11 22:34:10 <dmanderson> ;-)
Nov 11 22:34:40 <Cage1___> they figure the people will be able to learn Java, etc themselves
Nov 11 22:34:44 <dmanderson> right
Nov 11 22:34:58 <dmanderson> Yeah, LG isn’t really steering this so much - as us the team.
Nov 11 22:35:09 <Cage1___> (i image, though, that if i find a lisp job, i could certainly get paid a pretty penny for it!)
Nov 11 22:35:35 <Cage1___> haha, then i can vent at you guys instead of LG, lol
Nov 11 22:36:10 <Cage1___> so what are you guys thinking of for v3?
Nov 11 22:42:00 <dmanderson> haha!
Nov 11 22:42:02 <dmanderson> Yeah vent at us :)
Nov 11 22:42:30 <dmanderson> Thinking a lot of things. Obviously stepping back and looking at what everone else is doing.
Nov 11 22:42:34 <dmanderson> So many frameworks
Nov 11 22:42:55 <Cage1___> :)
Nov 11 22:43:14 <Cage1___> can you please, please, please get out 2.5.1 in by end of month? :) :) :) :) :)
Nov 11 22:49:24 <Cage1___> p.s.: if you want to promote enyojs, advantages are: 1) performance on mobile (without having to deal with lots of hacks on other frameworks) 2) ease of use of repeaters/lists, datagridlist, etc. 3) robust support for touch events
Nov 11 22:50:32 <dmanderson> haha we’re trying!!!
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Nov 12 03:00:00 2014