**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri May 25 02:59:57 2007
May 25 04:25:20 <Prez_> hello
May 25 04:26:08 <Prez_> is there an n800 channel not for developers, i mostly have usability questions, like, how to sync files between my minux laptop and n800 using bluetooth,
May 25 04:41:45 <keesj> Prez_: not really
May 25 04:42:08 <keesj> welcome anyway, there is a user mailing list ,
May 25 04:43:19 <keesj> what is also the internet tablet talk forum. but if you use a linux labtop I guess that here is the place to get some help
May 25 04:44:06 <keesj> only I don't know anything about syncing with other than rsync
May 25 05:08:53 <trevarthan> xournal is awesome. so much better than maemopad+. i finally found a working copy of it for the n800 too. yay for not having to code it myself!
May 25 05:12:12 <trevarthan> got my n800 back up to speed after that crash earlier today too. took about 5 hours to flash and reinstall all my applications. ugh. hope that doesn't happen again.
May 25 05:12:49 <trevarthan> anyone know how to make a usb backup of the flash image?
May 25 07:19:18 <tigert> my xournal didnt draw anythign on screen
May 25 08:19:01 <AD-N770> good morning
May 25 08:38:29 <mk8> Hi to all ...
May 25 08:53:16 <Jaffa> morning, all
May 25 08:54:21 <melmoth_n800> i really dislkethe feeling of this blueeetoth keyboardddd
May 25 08:55:08 <melmoth_n800> isthe reaction time always sllow with bt keyboard,,,?
May 25 09:39:07 <Mithrandir> is there a reason why libhildon is called libhildon-1.so.0 rather than just libhildon.so.1 ?
May 25 09:52:10 <mattsqz> what is this nonsense..
May 25 09:52:23 <mattsqz> cp: cannot stat `/media/sda2/etc/ld.so.conf': Input/output error
May 25 09:52:23 <mattsqz> cp: cannot stat `/media/sda2/home/user/.kde': Input/output error
May 25 09:52:23 <mattsqz> cp: cannot stat `/media/sda2/home/user/.kderc': Input/output error
May 25 09:52:23 <mattsqz> cp: cannot stat `/media/sda2/usr/local/share/man/man3': Input/output error
May 25 09:54:00 <inz> matt, dmesg probably tells you more
May 25 10:01:19 <mattsqz> brb
May 25 10:07:06 <tigert> media/sda2??
May 25 10:07:19 <tigert> a memory card named "sda2"?
May 25 10:08:13 <keesj> yea! what device are you using?
May 25 10:08:33 <nomis> well, its just the mountpoint...
May 25 10:18:55 <b0unc3> good morning
May 25 11:26:15 <drega> the article on how to use x11vnc to 'drive' the n800 from a pc is missing from the wiki.
May 25 11:26:33 <drega> anyone seen or know were a copy of it might be?
May 25 11:28:00 <dpb_> was it in the old wiki?
May 25 11:29:10 <dpb_> apparently
May 25 11:29:12 <dpb_> http://test.maemo.org/maemowiki/How_to_use_x11vnc_to_'drive'_the_N800_from_a_PC
May 25 11:36:42 <pulsar_> hi
May 25 11:37:33 <pulsar_> any d devs around? i wonder if anybody has managed to get the dgcc/gdc frontend working for maemo
May 25 12:17:13 <guardian> anyone ever tried to compile istanbul on maemo ??? http://live.gnome.org/Istanbul
May 25 12:59:19 <melmoth> I m playing with the hildon filechooser widget in pygtk..I can select a file, but i don not understand how to change the device so its point to a memory card
May 25 12:59:22 <melmoth> any idea ?
May 25 13:00:06 <Juhaz> "change the device"? the location the dialog is by when it opens?
May 25 13:01:58 <melmoth> not the default (not now :) )
May 25 13:02:15 <melmoth> by defaut i have the "n800" device
May 25 13:02:31 <melmoth> and i was expecting the widget to cope with a click on it, and show me the memory card available
May 25 13:02:35 <melmoth> on its own
May 25 13:02:40 <melmoth> and well... it does not
May 25 13:10:19 <i-nZ> Hello. Where can I get a list of all available sources for nokia n800 ?
May 25 13:11:46 <Okko> i-nZ: From the Internet
May 25 13:12:11 <||cw> i-nZ: I odn't think that's possible as anyone can make a source.  most are listed wiht the apps in the application catalog on the wiki though
May 25 13:12:37 <i-nZ> well I just added some "Extras" source when the installation asked if i want to
May 25 13:12:44 <i-nZ> so i thought there are unofficial-official repositories
May 25 13:13:08 <Okko> there are but anyone can make them
May 25 13:13:08 <i-nZ> e.g I wanted to install evince but it complained about libglade
May 25 13:25:33 <inz> i-nZ, nice nick ;)
May 25 13:27:40 <i-nZ> inz:  :D
May 25 13:27:46 <i-nZ> mine is based on my name ;)
May 25 13:29:39 <inz> i-nZ, mine has evolved past that ;)
May 25 13:31:04 <i-nZ> anyway I just got my n800 today and I am still surfing around to figure out what are the information sources
May 25 13:31:30 <i-nZ> next step will be to setup a dev env :)
May 25 13:33:29 <melmoth> Juhaz: i have postes a small testcase on maemo-developer that sort of show what i dont understand
May 25 13:49:48 <Juhaz> melmoth, ok, don't have a device here right now, but I'll take a look when I get home.
May 25 13:51:57 <konttori> Sweet: http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/id61019.html
May 25 13:52:23 <konttori> (only for finnish people)
May 25 13:52:54 <konttori> Basically says that it's now legal in finland to make programs that remove CSS from dvds.
May 25 13:53:05 <MoRpHeUz> =)
May 25 13:53:23 <konttori> So, stay tuned for a dvd ripping enabled version of media converter this weekend ;)
May 25 13:58:53 <pulsar_> wooohooo! that was easy! http://turrican.renoise.com/pulsar/pics/helloglade.png
May 25 14:00:49 <sciboy> Hehe
May 25 14:01:18 <pulsar_> mono-develop is a pain in the ass btw. royale.
May 25 14:03:57 <sciboy> It's being a similar pain in the ass trying to get a N800 in australia.
May 25 14:04:22 <pulsar_> is it? i got mine from amazon
May 25 14:04:54 <sciboy> Nice,
May 25 14:05:37 <pulsar_> i am thinking about writing a nice podcatcher client. gpodder does not suit me.
May 25 14:06:03 <sciboy> Yeah? Anything in particular that gPodder doesn't do?
May 25 14:06:12 <pulsar_> yep. beeing snappy :)
May 25 14:06:27 <pulsar_> i dont know why, but the current port is fu*** slow
May 25 14:06:48 <pulsar_> takes about one minute to start i.e.
May 25 14:07:02 <pulsar_> and uses 100% cpu when downloading podcasts.
May 25 14:07:35 <pulsar_> castget is a nice tool though
May 25 14:08:00 <pulsar_> x-compiled it some time ago. actually it works pretty well.
May 25 14:09:42 <guardian> browsing the bugzilla is depressing :( instead of getting bug fixed, you can follow the bug bouncing from one people to another: "reassigned to jp" -> "reassigned to mika" -> "reassigned back to jp" -> NO U ! :(((((
May 25 14:10:57 <keesj> :P
May 25 14:12:25 <sciboy> =/
May 25 14:13:28 <mgedmin> bugball!
May 25 14:20:14 <||cw> I've had that happen to me, someone either thinks I'm supposed to, or even am capable, of fixing a bug that i'm neither
May 25 14:22:10 <guardian> pddd
May 25 14:22:12 <guardian> this is shameful
May 25 14:22:13 <guardian> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1300
May 25 14:22:39 <guardian> dispute about who has the bigger dick, the one who wins marks the bug as fixed :)
May 25 14:23:23 <bilboed> don't forget to attach a picture of proof
May 25 14:23:28 <bilboed> :)
May 25 14:23:43 <guardian> haha
May 25 14:23:50 <guardian> ok enough for today
May 25 14:23:54 <guardian> switching to other dev project
May 25 14:27:14 <guardian> really i expected something more professional from nokia
May 25 14:28:16 <guardian> all i saw was "maemo qa claiming ownership", "bugball bouncing from on people to another", and people arguing who in the hierarchy can decide if a bug is fixed or not
May 25 14:32:49 <tigert> ?
May 25 14:32:59 * tigert looks
May 25 14:33:23 <`0660> i think it's brave from nokia to handle all that in the public bugzilla :)
May 25 14:33:53 <`0660> the other option would be to keep it inside the company, but that would not be so open
May 25 14:36:09 <guardian> sometimes it takes time to fix bugs, so far so good. it's just a pity when the whole process is slowed down by somehow off topic quarrels
May 25 14:36:37 <tigert> guardian: "qa claiming ownership" sounds like it gets sucked in the internal bugzilla and gets worked on
May 25 14:36:51 <tigert> I know it sucks to then disappear from the outside view
May 25 14:36:54 <tigert> and we try to fix that
May 25 14:36:56 <||cw> Xandros does that, they have the public bug tracker and an internal one.  when someone opens a bug, they validated it them open a bug on the internal that the end user can't see.  when the internal is fixed, the public is closes as well.
May 25 14:37:06 <tigert> but there's so darn many things to fix that it is not easy or fast
May 25 14:37:10 <X-Fade> guardian: This bug is actively worked on, as fas as I know..
May 25 14:37:37 <tigert> guardian: this website thing is something quim is trying to fix all the time
May 25 14:37:40 <guardian> i don't doubt it's actively worked on
May 25 14:37:41 <Okko> who's the Oskari they are talking about? :)
May 25 14:37:52 <guardian> it's just demonstrate unprofessional handling
May 25 14:37:54 <X-Fade> I'm sure Quim doesn't allow sucky/broken documentation to stay there long..
May 25 14:37:55 <guardian> +s
May 25 14:38:00 <tigert> its just a a lot of issues popping up all over the place
May 25 14:38:27 <guardian> the result being my little person being frustrated :D but i'm sure i'm not the only one in this case
May 25 14:38:34 <tigert> because theres the whole lot of content that is converted first and then you see it didnt work here or there?
May 25 14:38:57 <tigert> and thus a crapload of things to fix :)
May 25 14:39:30 <tigert> guardian: well, do you want things to be more open or not?
May 25 14:39:37 <tigert> guardian: look at gnome bugzilla for example
May 25 14:39:42 <tigert> stuff like this does happen there
May 25 14:40:17 <tigert> its human communication. sure, it could be handled face to face maybe
May 25 14:40:43 <guardian> i won't pretend i know the perfect solution
May 25 14:40:57 <tigert> yeah
May 25 14:40:59 <guardian> if the internal bugzilla and the public one are really synchronized i have nothing against that
May 25 14:41:10 <X-Fade> guardian: You have to understand that there are a few different parties at play here. Documention writers, website admin, internal qa, document manager,external consultants..
May 25 14:41:15 <guardian> i'm tempted to believe it's a huge task to achieve
May 25 14:41:16 <tigert> its just that if you have more transparency in the process, also the times when people are unhappy will show
May 25 14:41:36 <tigert> X-Fade: yeah
May 25 14:41:40 <tigert> that is what makes things complicated
May 25 14:41:56 <guardian> not to mention PGP ;)
May 25 14:42:00 <tigert> there are not just the guy who writes docs, the guy who maintains the web, the guy who does testing
May 25 14:42:03 <tigert> but teams of people doing that
May 25 14:42:11 <tigert> each having their good and bad days I suppose
May 25 14:42:15 <guardian> true
May 25 14:42:19 <X-Fade> You just can't go in and fix things directly. Somebody has to sign off on it etc etc..
May 25 14:42:46 <tigert> and thus things sometimes happen that team A has a deadline and team B does not know something they should and do things that pull rug from under team A's feet
May 25 14:42:50 <tigert> or something
May 25 14:42:54 <tigert> its just a big mess to deal with
May 25 14:43:46 <tigert> its moving ahead and we have more thinking of the community also inside etc
May 25 14:44:02 <tigert> like plankton is going to be in the sdk theme etc
May 25 14:44:21 <tigert> and we try to use sardine ourselves too etc
May 25 14:44:29 <tigert> to hack on the same dogfood we give to you :)
May 25 14:44:41 <tigert> but its so many things sometimes I just want to curl down and sleep =)
May 25 14:44:59 <tigert> when I make the mistake of looking at the big picture of "nokia and community" :)
May 25 14:51:43 <guardian> thx for bothering explaining the situation
May 25 15:10:19 <stuaart> Hello
May 25 15:12:00 <stuaart> Anyone here have any experience using gpsd?
May 25 15:12:29 <stuaart> I'm struggling to work out how to change the baud rate
May 25 15:40:46 <trevarthan> Hello. Can anyone tell me how to make a backup of my currently running firmware via USB flasher?
May 25 15:41:34 <trevarthan> It would make me feel better if I had an entire image to restore to. It took me 5 hours to reinstall all of my applications last night after I got the white screen of death.
May 25 15:54:56 <part> trevarthan: don't know any way to access the data via usb when the device doesn't boot
May 25 15:56:06 <nomis> trevarthan: I suspect that Nokia has no interest in making the image data available via USB.
May 25 16:13:46 <melmoth> bel orage
May 25 16:13:47 <melmoth> oups
May 25 16:53:10 <Juhaz> melmoth, it looks like it's a "feature" of CREATE_FOLDER mode, it won't allow navigation by user, only creation of subdirectory in the preselected one.
May 25 16:56:16 <melmoth> mhh, i must admit i havent try with NEW_FOLDER ...
May 25 16:56:22 <melmoth> i ll try that
May 25 16:57:14 <melmoth> but the thing is..i would really like to be sure this is a new folder.. I guess i can check its content afterward though, and act if therea re other files in it already
May 25 17:00:48 <melmoth> works bette with SELECT_FOLDER indeed
May 25 17:00:58 <melmoth> thanks !
May 25 17:11:24 <Skyrazer> hello
May 25 17:17:04 <Skyrazer> i could need some help on installing phonelink
May 25 17:17:22 <Skyrazer> so i installed libgnokii, but i cant find the binary.. where should it be?
May 25 17:17:50 <Skyrazer> i'm using os2006 and libgnokii2
May 25 17:30:37 <melunko_> Hello there, anyone knows if there are any vnc server to N800?
May 25 17:32:11 <Skyrazer> yes there are
May 25 17:32:44 <Skyrazer> here: http://mike.saunby.googlepages.com/x11vncfornokia7702
May 25 17:34:34 <melunko_> Skyrazer: thanks
May 25 17:36:12 <b0unc3> hello
May 25 17:40:57 <mk8> Hi to all ..
May 25 17:43:37 <Skyrazer> ok, gbye
May 25 19:26:53 <trevarthan> Hmmmm... seems like if you can flash to the RAM, you should be able to pull from the RAM too using the flasher. Is that impossible?
May 25 19:31:28 <Juhaz> it might be possible but "you can do it the other way around" is no reason to assume that. and it's not RAM
May 25 19:39:03 <trevarthan> Juhaz: Oh yeah? It's not random access memory?
May 25 19:41:25 <trevarthan> Can someone from Nokia please tell me if it's possible to download a flash ram image from the n800 to some other medium? Simple yes or no will be fine. Thank you!
May 25 19:45:01 <Sulis> i was wondering if the button on the mic part of the headphones actually controls anything, i see that it is registered as XF86Phone
May 25 19:45:03 <Disconnect> trevarthan: misusing terms and then getting picky with the people helping you is a good way to get them to wander off
May 25 19:48:38 <trevarthan> Disconnect: he wasn't helping. Nothing he said was intended to be useful in any way.
May 25 19:49:20 <trevarthan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_access_memory
May 25 19:49:57 <Disconnect> actually, looked like he was trying to help from here. but since you've taken mindreading 101 and can speak on his intent with such authority, i'll bow to your superior whining and wander off myself..
May 25 19:50:31 <`0660> :P
May 25 19:50:41 <trevarthan> Disconnect: I'm just trying to get an answer to a question. Sorry to bother you.
May 25 19:51:03 <Juhaz> no, it's not random access memory, since it's nand flash and is limited to block addressing
May 25 19:51:41 <nomis> trevarthan: I still firmly believe that Nokia installed all kinds of bells and whistles to make this basically impossible.
May 25 19:51:51 <nomis> trevarthan: you probably need to use JTAG to get a dump from the flash.
May 25 19:53:02 <trevarthan> nomis: I believe you. I would just like to hear someone from Nokia say it. That's all I want. Something definitive.
May 25 19:53:11 <nomis> trevarthan: then ask Nokia.
May 25 19:53:44 <trevarthan> nomis: I thought that was what I was doing. They don't have a presence here?
May 25 19:54:22 <`0660> i don't think they have official presence here
May 25 19:54:29 <nomis> trevarthan: there are some Nokia Employees here, but no official presence, no.
May 25 19:54:48 <`0660> in other words, if you want answers here, you will have to be polite
May 25 19:55:09 <trevarthan> I'd be satisfied with the word of an employee, so long as he knows what he's talking about. I'm not sure I know what "official" means.
May 25 19:56:05 <trevarthan> `0660: look, I'm sorry if you all don't think I'm being polite. I thought Juhaz was taking an obvious snipe at me. I still do. I responded accordingly.
May 25 19:56:29 <`0660> in this context it would mean that they would be forced to act polite to everyone
May 25 19:56:29 * nomis sees no obvious snipe.
May 25 19:56:39 <ferulo> peeeaaaace :)
May 25 19:56:42 <Juhaz> tigert is probably the most active nokia employee here and I doubt he knows about that either, being a GUI guy
May 25 19:57:33 <ferulo> trevarthan: if this helps, I have never listened anything about RAM dumps
May 25 19:57:42 <trevarthan> Juhaz: ok. I'll stop asking if no one knows. fair enough. I hope you can't blame me for persistence.
May 25 19:58:19 <Disconnect> fyi many (most? and istr including the 770/800) embedded linux boxes can use the flasher to dump to/from RAM, for testing kernels or as a 2-stage flash method, etc. so - regardless of what you want to say about the definition of "access" - talking about dumping RAM is going to be confusing at best.
May 25 19:58:44 <Sulis> and does anyone know if there are any hildonisations for python?
May 25 19:59:14 <ferulo> Sulis: hildonisations?
May 25 19:59:46 <trevarthan> Disconnect: I'm not sure whether you just said that "yes, you can download a flash image from an n800", or "no, you can't". Could you clarify?
May 25 19:59:53 <Sulis> yep, so that you can hildonise a python gui
May 25 20:00:04 <ferulo> yeah Sulis you have python-hildon module
May 25 20:00:11 <Sulis> excellent
May 25 20:00:13 <Sulis> thanks
May 25 20:00:18 <ferulo> so you can create a hildon.window and so on
May 25 20:00:23 <Sulis> right
May 25 20:00:53 <Sulis> i guess i should look for some documentation on this...
May 25 20:01:12 <Disconnect> trevarthan: i said "in most embedded applications, RAM and flash are not interchangable terms. especially relating to reading/writing data from the host". as far as what you can do on the nokia boxes (without soldering, presumably, and without a working OS) its pretty much limited to whatever flasher will do. so type ./flasher and see.. but if its not there, its unlikely to be possible.
May 25 20:01:16 <`0660> trevarthan, i think you would already have got the answer if it was that simple
May 25 20:01:48 <ferulo> Sulis: yup, it's on pymaemo.garage.maemo.org
May 25 20:02:41 <Sulis> ah, that's great, thanks
May 25 20:05:33 <trevarthan> `0660: I don't know. I can't count the number of times I've asked questions for days straight before getting an answer. Persistence might be annoying, but it's useful. Sometimes the right people just aren't listening and so you can't be sure if you don't continue to ask. I am sorry for annoying everyone though. That's an unfortunate side effect.
May 25 20:05:59 <tigert> Juhaz: yea, you are correct. I have no clue
May 25 20:06:19 <tigert> Juhaz: I bet daniels would know, if he doesnt tell when asked, then the information is not public
May 25 20:06:35 <tigert> we do have people on the channel from Nokia, there are things we can talk about and things we can not talk about
May 25 20:06:53 <tigert> there is no mystery to it - we'll just say its something we cannot comment on
May 25 20:07:05 <trevarthan> tigert: is this one of those things you can't talk about?
May 25 20:07:15 <tigert> the flash stuff?
May 25 20:07:19 <trevarthan> Yeah.
May 25 20:07:20 <tigert> I just simply have no clue about that
May 25 20:07:28 <tigert> I do UI and pretty pixels
May 25 20:07:32 <trevarthan> Is there anyone you could ask about it for me?
May 25 20:08:31 <trevarthan> someone who deals with the hardware or the boot loader would probably know.
May 25 20:08:44 <||cw> trevarthan: the linux flasher si a shell script isn't it?
May 25 20:09:00 <Juhaz> it's not
May 25 20:09:16 <nomis> trevarthan: you know, you could also use the Mailinglist. Lots of Nokians read the Mailinglist and it is more likely to get the question delivered to a knowing person.
May 25 20:09:21 <||cw> hm, thought it was, not sure why i thought that
May 25 20:09:36 <nomis> that would be a better option than knowingly annoying people in here.
May 25 20:09:54 <Juhaz> if you're only interested in installed applications, rootfs should be all you need, and dumping that shouldn't be hard, since it's obviously mounted on the device and fully readable from userspace... "through usb" part might still not be possible, but if you have a working OS and can use memory card or network, ...
May 25 20:10:53 <trevarthan> Juhaz: that's a good point. I could always treat it like any other linux machine and use cpio to copy the file system.
May 25 20:11:00 <`0660> annoying people tactic seems to work pretty good too ;)
May 25 20:11:08 <Juhaz> you could probably dump even most of the rest through /dev/mtd* with a working OS, but getting it back would be another story entirely, since the flasher expects a specific format, which probably isn't a raw dump.
May 25 20:11:15 <||cw> trevarthan: http://www.nopcode.org/0xFFFF/?p=docu&q=usage
May 25 20:12:22 <trevarthan> ||cw: Wow. Does that do what I think it does?
May 25 20:12:41 <||cw> it says it does what I think you want
May 25 20:12:55 <trevarthan> ||cw: I'll have to take a look at that tonight! Many thanks!
May 25 20:13:34 <tigert> trevarthan: ask daniel
May 25 20:14:15 <trevarthan> `0660: I like to call it "communication". It's getting people's attention that can be difficult.
May 25 20:14:46 <tigert> trevarthan: well, since the flasher is not free software, I guess there is a reason for this
May 25 20:15:15 <tigert> probably the low level stuff is considered proprietary or such - I dunno.
May 25 20:15:17 <||cw> Juhaz: right, it's a "Fiasco" package, but 0xFFFF can restore just certain pieces
May 25 20:15:17 <`0660> i think there are better ways to reach goals
May 25 20:15:44 <tigert> but yeah
May 25 20:16:10 <tigert> we are not bad people
May 25 20:16:25 <`0660> you could have just made a search with "flasher" on http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/
May 25 20:16:31 <tigert> its just that many of us are busy, its hard to irc from work, and not everyone wants to hang around here after work hours :)
May 25 20:16:56 <||cw> or on the maemo wiki
May 25 20:19:55 <trevarthan> tigert: yeah, that's why I asked a lot. Wanted to make sure it got exposure.
May 25 20:19:55 <tigert> yeah
May 25 20:20:03 <tigert> the wiki has most of this too
May 25 20:21:18 <trevarthan> `0660: It's too bad you can't Mute someone like on Xbox Live. :) That would probably be useful.
May 25 20:25:18 <`0660> trevarthan, don't know about xbox live, but there's always /ignore, i just prefer education over suppression :)
May 25 20:26:32 <tigert>  /ignore works pretty effectively :)
May 25 20:31:14 <Mithrandir> also, if you have @ you can mute people. :-P
May 25 20:32:46 <trevarthan> Ah. Good to know. I knew I could get kicked. hopefully I won't get muted or ignored.
May 25 20:39:01 <`0660> trevarthan, you hope you don't get ignored? :)
May 25 20:47:31 <unique311> APPLE IIgs experience in here
May 25 21:55:55 <greentux> are there modest packages for testing around?
May 25 22:22:03 <tigert> trevarthan: no worries, we are nice folks :)
May 25 22:22:05 <tigert> hmm
May 25 22:22:25 <tigert> http://tigert.1g.fi/kuvat/Laivat/2007-05-25-nordlandia-rosella/ < something completely different and offtopic :)
May 25 22:23:32 <Sulis> hmm, boats and planes
May 25 22:23:36 <tigert> yeah
May 25 22:23:42 <tigert> the weather was nice tonight
May 25 22:23:51 <tigert> I warned, its totally off topic :)
May 25 22:24:17 <Sulis> hehe
May 25 22:25:03 <Sulis> you took those tonight?
May 25 22:25:08 <tigert> yeah
May 25 22:25:29 <Sulis> some of them are really nice
May 25 22:25:36 <tigert> yeah, the light was pretty nice
May 25 22:26:42 <Sulis> yeah, it looks lovely
May 25 22:28:24 <Sulis> i keep encountering the finnish language now, and so i want to learn it
May 25 22:29:34 <tigert> :)
May 25 22:30:05 <Sulis> heh, but it seems that every finn that i meet speaks perfect english
May 25 22:30:14 <tigert> writes on irc at least :)
May 25 22:30:38 <tigert> but yeah, considering we learn it from 3rd grade, it would be weird if we didnt know it at all :)
May 25 22:31:09 <tigert> plus all the US tv series run on our TV as well
May 25 22:31:11 <zeenix> Sulis: you haven't met the taxi drivers in finland?
May 25 22:31:20 <tigert> zeenix: haha
May 25 22:31:27 <Sulis> zeenix: no, i haven't
May 25 22:32:19 <Sulis> heh, there there is very rarely any language other than english on english tv... :(
May 25 22:32:25 <zeenix> Sulis: and you haven't come across the type who would seem very rude but then it turns out that they just didn't have the confidence to say 'hello' in english? :)
May 25 22:32:42 <tigert> zeenix: yeah, thats unfortunate
May 25 22:32:46 <tigert> but that exists
May 25 22:32:54 <tigert> finns are shy to speak in english
May 25 22:33:13 <Sulis> but that's fear of making a fool of yourself
May 25 22:33:19 <tigert> yeah
May 25 22:33:35 <tigert> and the fact that we have very good courses of english grammar and volcabulary
May 25 22:33:42 <tigert> but not that much spoken excercises
May 25 22:34:01 <tigert> thus our accent is pretty horrid and people are ashamed of it, and fear of stumbling on what they try to say
May 25 22:34:22 <Sulis> i kinda like the accent :P
May 25 22:34:49 <tigert> its sorta cute :)
May 25 22:34:53 <tigert> the "Mika Häkkinen" voice
May 25 22:35:48 <Sulis> heh, well i don't watch formula one so i don't know
May 25 22:36:06 <jumpula> "the race was very hard"
May 25 22:37:10 <Sulis> hehe
May 25 22:38:24 <zeenix> Sulis: so i take it that you have moved to finland recently?
May 25 22:38:37 <tigert> http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Q6s_LhLchk
May 25 22:39:40 <Sulis> zeenix: nope
May 25 22:40:28 <Sulis> i'm encountering finnish on the net, although i'm thinking of visiting finnland later in the year
May 25 22:40:57 * zeenix scratches head
May 25 22:41:09 <zeenix> Sulis: why? :)
May 25 22:41:35 <zeenix> Sulis: encouraging finnish i mean
May 25 22:42:11 <Sulis> encouraging?
May 25 22:42:22 <Molagi> Sulis i recommend you visit when its summer here :P
May 25 22:42:33 <tigert> well. winter is an experience too
May 25 22:42:47 <Sulis> i don't see enough snow :P
May 25 22:42:53 <tigert> but then one needs to go to north
May 25 22:42:59 <tigert> in mid-winter
May 25 22:44:15 <Molagi> yeah, lapland is nice
May 25 22:44:24 <Molagi> not so dark and depressing
May 25 22:44:26 <jumpula> lapland, home of lapdancing
May 25 22:44:48 <Molagi> indeed :d
May 25 22:45:01 <Sulis> lol
May 25 22:45:29 <tigert> http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=int&w=all&q=lapland+finland&m=text < hm, good search it seems
May 25 22:46:30 <Sulis> zeenix: why are you confused that someone would want to learn your language?
May 25 22:46:49 <tigert> zeenix is not a native finnish speaker
May 25 22:46:51 <zeenix> mine?
May 25 22:47:05 <tigert> he just works here :)
May 25 22:47:11 <Sulis> ah
May 25 22:47:14 <Sulis> kay
May 25 22:47:18 <tigert> but man. we need to go to lapland as a team
May 25 22:47:21 <tigert> during the darkest winter
May 25 22:47:24 <tigert> that would rock
May 25 22:47:39 <zeenix> Sulis: i've been here for two years but haven't even grasped the basics
May 25 22:48:11 <zeenix> tigert: it's a bit more than that i think since i have a gf in here now :)
May 25 22:48:24 <tigert> oh, then its motivation to learn the language :)
May 25 22:48:49 <Sulis> i don't mind a challenge, and i find grammar interesting
May 25 22:49:03 <tigert> "interesting" is a very mild term
May 25 22:49:19 <jumpula> grammar or the lack of one? :)
May 25 22:49:20 <tigert> they say its one of the most "interesting" grammars, in par with japanese
May 25 22:49:25 <tigert> there is grammar
May 25 22:49:32 <tigert> its just full of exceptions :)
May 25 22:49:33 <jumpula> yes, there is
May 25 22:49:48 <Sulis> japanese grammar is not hard
May 25 22:49:50 <jumpula> but it's non-trivial to figure out on-the-fly
May 25 22:50:36 <zeenix> minä haluan tapPan jumpulaa :)
May 25 22:50:37 <tigert> ok, time to take the dogs out and then sleep
May 25 22:50:40 <tigert> ttyl :)
May 25 22:51:03 <Sulis> seeya tigert
May 25 22:51:13 <Sulis> zeenix: what does that mean?
May 25 22:51:47 <zeenix> Sulis: removing the 'P', it would mean 'i want to meet jumpula'
May 25 22:52:07 <zeenix> but with a p more, it means 'i want to kill jumpula' :)
May 25 22:52:28 <Sulis> hehe
May 25 22:52:40 <jumpula> yeah, but the verbs here bend in a funny fashion
May 25 22:52:50 <jumpula> so, in that context it would be like
May 25 22:52:56 <jumpula> haluan tavata jumpulan
May 25 22:53:05 <jumpula> haluan tappaa jumpulan
May 25 22:53:10 <jumpula> p changes to v
May 25 22:53:31 <tigert> yeah, but there is a way where this works too
May 25 22:53:32 <jumpula> or other way round, since in the base form it's v
May 25 22:53:46 <tigert> "hän tapaa jumpulan" vs "hän tappaa jumpulan"
May 25 22:54:04 <tigert> is correct, just different form of sentence
May 25 22:54:08 <jumpula> bend is not the correct term, but don't remember the grammatic term at the moment
May 25 22:54:19 <Sulis> congugate
May 25 22:54:19 <tigert> "he/she will meet jumpula" vs "he/she will kill jumpula" :)
May 25 22:54:32 <jumpula> no post or pre posiotions
May 25 22:54:48 <jumpula> their function is embedded in the words :)
May 25 22:54:56 <tigert> yep.
May 25 22:55:04 <jumpula> -o
May 25 22:55:29 <tigert> koti = home. at home = kotona. from home = kotoa. from ones home = kotoaan, into ones home = kotiinsa
May 25 22:55:33 <tigert> etc, easy? :)
May 25 22:55:59 <Sulis> no, it's not easy, but that makes it worth doing
May 25 22:56:39 <jumpula> go fishing = mennä kalaan, enter a fish (go inside a fish) = mennä kalaan
May 25 22:57:09 <jumpula> the latter has really no meaning and therefore not used :)
May 25 22:57:25 <jumpula> but that demonstrates the behavior of the language
May 25 22:57:30 <tigert> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar
May 25 22:57:39 <tigert> holu crap, that is long
May 25 22:57:40 <Sulis> lol, i guess you can tell by the context in a sense like that
May 25 22:57:46 <tigert> s/lu/ly//
May 25 22:57:46 <jumpula> if one opts for challenge, then icelandic could be worth trying for
May 25 22:57:56 <zeenix> why don't we all just start speaking klingon
May 25 22:58:11 <jumpula> zeenix: i was wondering when you might bring that up :D
May 25 22:58:20 <jumpula> q'pla
May 25 22:58:31 <tigert> yIrqI' yIy yIy qaSvI' 'oH pongwIj'e' 'ej vInlan yejquvDaq jIjeS. pa' DIvI' SuDqu' vI'oS.
May 25 22:58:38 <Molagi> oh my god
May 25 22:58:39 <Sulis> zeenix: klingon is like swallowing sandpaper though
May 25 22:58:45 <tigert> http://kasvi.org/index.php?kli
May 25 22:59:21 <zeenix> is that the politician
May 25 22:59:29 <tigert> yeah
May 25 22:59:35 <tigert> well, and a geek
May 25 22:59:39 <Molagi> heh
May 25 22:59:43 <tigert> mostly a geek, who also got into politics
May 25 22:59:53 <jumpula> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_grammar
May 25 22:59:56 <Molagi> good strategy to fish some votes
May 25 23:00:01 <ferulo> damm, I got a call today from my landord
May 25 23:00:13 <ferulo> complains about the music
May 25 23:00:19 <zeenix> i would vote for him if i had a vote
May 25 23:00:20 <xan> ferulo, WHO complained
May 25 23:00:24 <ferulo> hahaha
May 25 23:00:26 <Sulis> jumpula: but icelandic i've not encountered
May 25 23:00:27 <ferulo> YOU KNOW
May 25 23:00:33 <xan> SAY IT
May 25 23:00:35 <ferulo> THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF FINLAND!
May 25 23:00:40 <xan> YES
May 25 23:00:48 <ferulo> I cannot understand this finnish guys!
May 25 23:01:55 <Sulis> jumpula: that seems a lot like latin...
May 25 23:01:56 <jumpula> Sulis: i tried to fill an icelandic immigration form couple of years ago
May 25 23:01:59 <ferulo> look xan now everyone is silent!
May 25 23:02:12 <jumpula> i was unable to deduce most of the stuff
May 25 23:02:14 <xan> ferulo, because you said the words
May 25 23:02:24 <ferulo> they are scared!
May 25 23:02:45 <jumpula> words didn't resemble anything i know
May 25 23:03:22 <Sulis> jumpula: you're a linguist?
May 25 23:03:29 <jumpula> no
May 25 23:03:43 <Sulis> oh...
May 25 23:03:58 <Sulis> kay!
May 25 23:04:20 <jumpula> i really know only little of grammar (for any language) but it's fun to deduce stuff based on other languages :)
May 25 23:04:34 <zeenix> Sulis: he is damn trekkie
May 25 23:04:52 <jumpula> zeenix: takes one to know one ;)
May 25 23:05:13 <Molagi> ferulo, so Martti Ahtisaari complained about music?
May 25 23:05:25 <tigert> ok sleep &
May 25 23:05:36 <Sulis> hehe, i used to call myself trekkie, but i dunno anymore...
May 25 23:05:41 <ferulo> Molagi: yep
May 25 23:05:48 <Molagi> strange
May 25 23:06:20 <jumpula> any good scifi goes
May 25 23:06:39 <jumpula> trek was my introduction to the genre, so there's some nostalgy there
May 25 23:07:04 <Sulis> yeah, i grew up with the next generation really
May 25 23:07:08 <ferulo> Molagi: I lived in the aparment below mine
May 25 23:07:26 <ferulo> and that's what my landlord told me, so either it said it, either my landlord is a lier
May 25 23:07:43 <Molagi> heh
May 25 23:12:48 <Molagi> you better watch out, martti may still have some political powers :D
May 25 23:14:13 <xan> when he doesn't come to work on monday I'll use his monitor for some xinerama love, so it's all fine
May 25 23:15:23 <Molagi> :P
May 25 23:16:02 <Sulis> random question: when a finn speaks english they kinda stretch the vowels a bit or something...and i like that, it's kinda sexy, so does a native english speaker speak finnish with too short vowels and sound...harsh?
May 25 23:17:08 <Molagi> dont know, never really heard anyone native english speaker speak finnish :P
May 25 23:17:31 <Sulis> really?
May 25 23:17:59 <ferulo> Molagi: well, I hope he can do only as any our finnish citizen can do. I guess that in this supposed democracy we all have same rights and duties
May 25 23:18:21 <Molagi> :)
May 25 23:18:33 <Molagi> Sulis atleast i cant recall :/
May 25 23:18:40 <ferulo> if he uses his political power to stop me puting opera on saturdays mornings then I won't trust this zero-corruption thing
May 25 23:19:16 <tigert> ferulo: wireless headphones :)
May 25 23:19:33 <Sulis> hahaha, opera on headphones
May 25 23:19:43 <Molagi> must be lame
May 25 23:19:44 <tigert> opera saturday mornings does not sound like fun when its not your choice :)
May 25 23:20:07 <tigert> but anyway, off to the saturday mornings without opera (hopefully ;))
May 25 23:20:16 <ferulo> well, my mornings usually starts at 13.00
May 25 23:20:59 <tigert> ah. that is a bit different then. in finland we call it "afternoon" ;)
May 25 23:21:16 <Sulis> hehehe
May 25 23:21:44 <Molagi> i wish my mornings would start at 13.00
May 25 23:22:30 <Sulis> i wish the mornings when i have to work would start at 13:00 but not my saturday mornings
May 25 23:23:51 <Molagi> yeah
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat May 26 02:59:57 2007