**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jul 16 02:59:58 2007 Jul 16 03:19:48 bah, anyone know if scratchbox has been compiled for amd64? Jul 16 03:23:12 seems like I have to setup a sort of virtual environment to run it in... Jul 16 03:29:31 rhsanborn: easiest way is to get the INdT Maemo SDK VMWare Appliance - scratchbox doesn't run well/at all on amd64 Jul 16 03:29:42 whereas the vm is perfectly preconfigured, so no muss, no fuss Jul 16 03:32:50 megabyte405: Do you know if that image is fully up to date for maemo 3.1 development? Jul 16 03:33:07 (...or is 3.2 the latest...) Jul 16 03:33:51 Okay, I am doing something obviously dumb, but I can't figure it out. apt-get is failing because it can't resolve repository.maemo.org, but other commands (e.g., arp) resolve it just fine running inside scratchbox. Jul 16 03:34:05 Is there something special about how apt-get does host lookups? Jul 16 03:35:42 (fresh install of 3.1, used the maemo-scratchbox and maemo-sdk scripts. nsswitch.conf has "hosts: dns", although I also tried with "hosts: files dns" just in case.) Jul 16 03:37:55 Ahh, never mind. Jul 16 03:38:08 I was looking at the nsswitch.conf INSIDE scratchbox. I cannot read instructions. Jul 16 03:40:01 I just installed scratchbox 1.0 on my Ubuntu machine. All I really want to do with it is install Python 2.5, libusb-dev, and PyUSB. In so doing, a file called usb.so will be created. I'd like to copy this file onto my N800 so that I can access the USB port from Python on the N800. Does this sound reasonable? Jul 16 03:47:16 FYI all: I just updated screenshots for Kagu: https://www.guardiani.us/projects/kagu/wiki/ScreenShots Things new in these screenshots? 1.) Added Play/Pause, Next, and Prev buttons. 2.) Bluetooth/A2DP button moved from middle right to bottom left of screen. 3.) Added VolumeView screenshot as the VolumeView has just been added this weekend. Jul 16 04:09:37 someone mentioned vmware as an alternative dev environment...is that a gui app? Jul 16 04:10:44 no Jul 16 04:11:10 thank goodness. I'm doing any work over ssh :P Jul 16 04:11:14 errr sorry do any one know where is fastmame src ^^? Jul 16 04:11:21 sorry just ask ^^ Jul 16 04:11:40 there is a premade vmware image that saves people the scratchbox config, and allows the scratchbox to be easily copied between pcs Jul 16 04:11:45 Stg sounds interesting Jul 16 04:12:18 good. ALthough getting vmware setup is equally a challenge :P Jul 16 04:13:38 yes ^^ Jul 16 04:13:59 i like updata fastmame to 0.117 ^^ Jul 16 04:15:03 Stg: is fastmame optimized? or just compiled with Intel's ICC Jul 16 04:16:18 fastmame optimized ^^ Jul 16 04:16:37 but i have no fastmeme src :/ Jul 16 04:16:47 vmware isn't that hard to setup. It only takes a few minutes. Not like scratchbox. Nothing like scratchbox. :) Jul 16 04:17:08 I wish that image was available when I set up my scratchbox, man that would have saved time... Jul 16 04:17:50 http://users.bigpond.net.au/mame/gp32/ Stg << there are some optimizations for ARM there Jul 16 04:18:18 for gp32 ?_? Jul 16 04:18:30 yes it uses an arm9 cpu Jul 16 04:19:06 of course he doesn't have *my* favorite games working, so blah Jul 16 04:19:13 trevarthan: I'm using an amd64 cpu and dbian etch. the vmware player can't see my headers. It requires a little fiddling Jul 16 04:19:15 so why fastmame be a fast is use arm9 cpu ? Jul 16 04:19:55 Stg, i have not found any page describing why fastmame is 'fast' besides using intels compiler Jul 16 04:20:18 ohhh ok ^^ Jul 16 04:20:26 still thanks you man ^^ Jul 16 04:20:49 rhsanborn: sounds like a problem with debian's packaging of vmware. Or lack thereof. Jul 16 04:21:03 Stg: here is some possible optimisation http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?s=f36ab7429f0dfd231b93f6a8ddaaeb31&showtopic=37569 Jul 16 04:21:37 trevarthan: I haven't found a pacakge for vmware. I have to use the packages from vmwares site, which are a little finicky Jul 16 04:22:17 ^^ thanks Jul 16 04:22:42 rhsanborn: http://packages.debian.org/unstable/misc/vmware-package ?? Jul 16 04:23:11 trevarthan: that would make me a very happy person :P Jul 16 04:24:23 I don't run debian personally, so I don't have a clue if that works or not. I run gentoo and various redhat distros. Maemo is the first debian based distro that I actually like. (no, I've never tried Ubuntu. I'm sure I'd like it though.) Jul 16 04:24:47 Jul 16 04:25:57 Sidux is a distro that tracks debian sid and catches problems/incompatibilities in an updater script. Very fast/light livecd. Very fast/clean install. The less-annoying alternative to Ubuntu. www.sidux.com Jul 16 04:26:05 Jul 16 04:26:41 However sidux kernels don't work with scratchbox. Need to roll your own :/ Jul 16 04:27:54 :) Sometimes I love writing code. Everytime I play with my volume view it makes me smile. It's a crappy little thing, but it still makes me smile. Jul 16 04:28:43 gobject is pretty sweet for callbacks. Kinda like Javascript's timer thingy (thought far less finicky) Jul 16 04:28:49 s/thought/though/ Jul 16 04:28:50 well maybe not - got to check out echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/vdso_enabled Jul 16 04:28:51 trevarthan meant: gobject is pretty sweet for callbacks. Kinda like Javascript's timer thingy (though far less finicky) Jul 16 04:29:52 trevarthan: could you make a hildon virtual keyboard that pops up on-top and generates generic x keyboard events? Jul 16 04:30:04 I keep thinking that I could probably implement Kagu in it's entirety using the dojo Javascript toolkit. (dojotoolkit.org) Jul 16 04:30:16 probably Jul 16 04:30:26 why? Jul 16 04:30:55 that would be a solution for keyboard input to sdl programs Jul 16 04:32:00 true. I haven't needed one yet, but I'm sure I could make one. The problem with pygame is that you have to write all of your widgets from scratch. You sort of take the window manager and toss it out the window. Jul 16 04:32:02 that's one of the coolest things about maemo. so many projects waiting to be done Jul 16 04:32:08 mhm Jul 16 04:32:50 Well for whoever does that, the list of programs that could benefit is huge, including the amiga, C64, atari st, PalmOS and dosbox emulators Jul 16 04:32:51 That can be a good thing, if you want to do things like inertial controls or funky interfaces, but it sucks when you've got to dupe the already existing onscreen KB. :) Jul 16 04:33:42 Ah. I was thinking an app specific widget. I think you're talking about hacking libsdl itself though. Jul 16 04:33:43 yeah. All programs can take regular x keyboard events (bluetooth kb), so a hack to bring up the hildon kbd and make it generate kb events would be a universal solution imo Jul 16 04:33:47 no Jul 16 04:34:04 I'm thinking about a seperate process that wouldn't require modifying any target program Jul 16 04:34:57 Yeah, that's what I thought. That's probably not possible though. SDL has no concept of input regions. So there would be no way to determine when it pops up. Jul 16 04:35:02 to bring up the keyboard would be tricky though - you'd either need to bind a button on the device, or detect a sequence of button presses Jul 16 04:35:10 right Jul 16 04:36:16 Well, if that sneak peak of the n801 or whatever was accurate, it won't be an issue in the future. The n801 looks like it will have a HW kb built in under the screen in a slide out. Jul 16 04:36:42 if that's the next tablet, i will have to buy it :/ Jul 16 04:37:28 me too, I think. I don't mind not having it so much right now. I just avoid using apps with a lot of text input. But having it would really open up a lot of possibilities. Jul 16 04:37:54 i figured out how one could hold it - the index and middle fingers of left and right hand would clasp the device on both sides Jul 16 04:37:58 and the thumbs would type Jul 16 04:38:03 Hmm. Jul 16 04:38:18 The howto for making an application package has a link to hello-world-app_0.4.tar.gz, but that link seems to be dead. Jul 16 04:38:42 Nokia is bad ass. I want to move to Finland and beg for a job. Jul 16 04:39:22 seebs: as are many links on maemo sites. if you really need it, google it, or ask around either here or on the mailing list. Jul 16 04:39:34 Well, anyone got a pointer to hello-world-app? Jul 16 04:39:50 it might be in the repository Jul 16 04:39:56 I am doing an article that covers some scratchbox stuff, and I want to talk up the maemo docs, which are mostly pretty good. :) Jul 16 04:40:07 Ooh, good catch. Jul 16 04:40:10 http://repository.maemo.org bora/free hello-world-app Jul 16 04:40:21 It is indeed there. Jul 16 04:40:51 Of course, that's the built version, not the source... Jul 16 04:40:54 heh Jul 16 04:41:05 apt-get source hello-world-app ? Jul 16 04:41:20 Ahh! Jul 16 04:41:46 I never knew that one. (Sorta a debian-newbie. I'm enthusiastic, though; I figure anything that isn't rpm has to be an improvement, but apt-get is actually pretty nice.) Jul 16 04:41:53 I need a better way to carry my n800 when I'm doing outdoor tasks. It has to be above my waist for my stupid Motorola S9 headset to not skip all the time. How the hell am I gonna manage that and not overheat myself with a backpack or jacket? Jul 16 04:41:54 <`0660> haven't that link been down for months already? :) Jul 16 04:41:57 i think the source repo needs to be in your /etc/apt/sources.list Jul 16 04:42:27 I need a freakin' shoulder holster. Jul 16 04:42:55 Or a better headset. Jul 16 04:43:35 It seems to have been sufficiently around by default in my scratchbox environment. Jul 16 04:43:36 Not sure if there is a better one. s9 is made for sweating people. :) Jul 16 04:44:46 When I was mowing my lawn last night I got sick of the skipping and broke out the ipod wired headphones. I was just mowing the lawn, so it wasn't that bad. Can't do that when I'm running though. Jul 16 04:45:59 I need to get a pouch surgically embedded in my chest, like a kangaroo or something. :) Jul 16 04:46:02 Stg: http://benchmark.mameworld.net/ there are some comparisons - not very complete though Jul 16 04:47:37 The n800 is pretty big, but I would still strap it to my upper arm if they made a holster that worked for that. Jul 16 04:48:05 I've only seen 'em for ipod nanos though. Jul 16 04:48:55 Oh well, I'm gonna go play some Gears of War just to prove that I'm an insomniac. Anyone want to join me? Jul 16 04:50:59 I've seen upper arm straps for full-sized ipods, I think. Jul 16 04:51:07 hmm trev looks like aflegg and penguinbait have windowmaker running "oskey-x is the on-screen keyboard in the second video." Jul 16 04:51:21 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4552&highlight=windowmaker Jul 16 04:56:52 "The onscreen keyboard makes the system run 100%," :( Jul 16 05:18:43 bah no xmkmf in sb Jul 16 05:40:05 hey everyone, has anyone found a good way to stream music from a home pc over the web to be accessed anywhere with internet connection? Jul 16 05:51:00 Vertoo: I like gnump3d. Jul 16 06:00:30 any others that work? my music server is os x Jul 16 06:09:03 Is there a log of this channel? I need to find a reference mentioned yesterday. Jul 16 06:11:55 see the topic Jul 16 06:12:12 Ah, thanks. Jul 16 06:37:27 Any tips for installing GCC on the N800 to appease python packages that need to compile against other libraries during installation? Jul 16 07:04:31 CountDown: That forum link I gave wasn't enough? It was fairly easy if you want a bit of help... Jul 16 07:05:27 Xark: Actually, I was just now going through it. Tried a bunch of other things first, though. Jul 16 07:05:49 CoutDown: Heh, no prob. Let me know if you hit any snags. Jul 16 07:05:57 Xark: It doesn't seem that all the files can be updated to the latest 3.2 release. Jul 16 07:06:39 Count: No, the actual compiler is from 2.1 IIRC, but its OK just make sure the libs are from the newer one (so the -dev matches what you already have). Jul 16 07:07:10 CountDown: I just browser the repository giving preference to anything that could be found in the newer one. Jul 16 07:07:17 er, browsed Jul 16 07:07:22 Xark: And you're right -- the forum post neglects to mention where the cpp-3.4 comes from. Jul 16 07:07:31 Xark: Yeah, that's what I'm doing as well. Jul 16 07:07:56 CountDown: In the end I don't think I had any apt-get headaches (dependency issues like the poster says he had). Jul 16 07:09:04 Xark: You mean dpkg? I got some warnings on the packages he mentioned. Jul 16 07:09:30 CountDown: Yes, thats what I mean. Jul 16 07:09:55 CountDown: I don't recall any serious warnings or conflicts... Jul 16 07:10:17 (Didn't need force or anything) Jul 16 07:12:09 At this point I've compiled a great deal with the compiler and its fine. Occasionally it will segfault on a given file, so far I have always gotten good output by just lowering the optimization level (-O2 -> -Os typically, sometimes to -O1 or -O0). Jul 16 07:12:46 CountDown: Also remember to make sure /tmp isn't the temp dir for compiles (either use /var/tmp or set TMPDIR environment var for gcc). Jul 16 07:13:31 Xark: Did you have to add gcc and g++ to your path? Jul 16 07:14:01 CountDown: It uses g++-3.4 and gcc-3.4 so I added symlinks for gcc and g++ Jul 16 07:14:35 Didn't need to alter the path. Jul 16 07:15:51 * Xark thinks the N800 compiles faster than his AMD 486-100 did. :) Jul 16 07:16:23 Xark: I'm getting errors from g++-3.4 and libstdc++6-dev. Jul 16 07:16:37 CountDown: Like what? Jul 16 07:16:52 Hi Jul 16 07:16:53 <_Monkey> privet, keesj Jul 16 07:17:07 CountDown: Hmm, I do seem to recall having to pick the right order to install things... Jul 16 07:17:37 "libstdc++6-dev depends on g++-3.4 (= 3.4.4cs2005q3.2-5.osso3); however: Package g++-3.4 is not configured yet." Jul 16 07:18:54 CountDown: Yeah, that sounds familiar. IIRC all I did was install in a proper order. Can you finish g++3.4 config? Jul 16 07:19:18 if you say apt-get -f install what does it suggest? Jul 16 07:19:34 Xark: I get the opposite error if I try dpkg -i g++... Jul 16 07:19:36 :) Jul 16 07:19:37 CountDown: I wish I had kept a log of exactly what I did. Jul 16 07:20:09 you might do without the -f as well Jul 16 07:20:11 CountDown: There must be a dpkg way to install packages with circular dependencies... Jul 16 07:20:12 Xark: Maybe I have the wrong versions? Jul 16 07:20:24 * Xark is a Debian newbie (but old time Linuxer). Jul 16 07:20:30 jumpula: I'll give it a try. Jul 16 07:20:52 I seem to recall apt-get check being helpful as well... Jul 16 07:26:18 * Xark gets back to his coding, mention my nick to "beep" me. Jul 16 07:27:21 Xark: Hmmm... g++-3.4 is there, but gcc-3.4 isn't. Do you have gcc-3.4 working? Jul 16 07:27:36 Xark: (Oops, sorry for the distraction.) Jul 16 07:27:43 CountDown: Sure. I have both working. Jul 16 07:28:00 CountDown: No problem. Its "work" so feel free to distract me. :-) Jul 16 07:28:17 * Xark 's N800 has been distracting him all day. ;-) Jul 16 07:28:29 Xark: Which .deb files did you use? Jul 16 07:28:44 One sec.. lemme double check. Jul 16 07:29:43 CountDown: I think it was gcc-3.4_3.4.4cs2005q3.2-5.osso3_armel.deb that was right with the others... Jul 16 07:30:04 How can one get a list of all .deb files that are installed on a system? Jul 16 07:30:12 (from CLI) Jul 16 07:30:39 dpkg -l or some such. Jul 16 07:31:14 Xark: Ah, I think I was trying to be too smart for my own good. Jul 16 07:31:21 CountDown: Yep, it shows: ii gcc-3.4 3.4.4cs2005q3.2-5.osso3 The GNU C compiler Jul 16 07:31:29 Xark: I installed gcc-3.4-base_3.4.4cs2005q3.2-5.osso3_armel.deb instead. Jul 16 07:31:55 CountDown: Hehe, I feel for that too. If you look in that -base thing its just the GPL, COPYING and REAME or somesuch. :-) Jul 16 07:32:02 er, fell for... Jul 16 07:32:24 More like GPL-base. Jul 16 07:32:50 CountDown: Its the only "up to date" gcc package, so sure I installed it. :) Jul 16 07:33:12 Xark: I guess I can just leave it in there, yeah? Jul 16 07:33:25 CountDown: Yeah, no harm (until you get conflicts...) Jul 16 07:33:50 (just kidding, it seems harmless) Jul 16 07:34:21 CountDown: Sounds like you are basically there though. Jul 16 07:34:33 Xark: Installing and checking now... Jul 16 07:35:12 Xark: Looks good! Thanks again. :) Jul 16 07:36:38 CountDown: No prob. Enjoy. Jul 16 07:52:43 Morning, all Jul 16 07:54:22 Morning, Jaffa. Jul 16 07:58:46 The IRC logs indicate there was some sort of problem with python raising an exception like: File "", line 1, in , couldn't opendir(): No such file or directory Jul 16 07:58:51 Did this ever get resolved? Jul 16 07:58:58 I'm running into the same thing now. Jul 16 08:05:26 CountDown: I have no idea about this, but is the path to the python executable correct? Jul 16 08:06:38 nomis: Do you mean the path to the Python interpreter? If so, yes. Jul 16 08:06:51 ok. No clue then :) Jul 16 08:07:49 Thanks for the suggestion, though. Jul 16 08:15:14 Aloha! Jul 16 08:26:10 good morning Jul 16 08:27:39 Good morning, AD-N770. Jul 16 08:38:45 melmoth: not on holiday? Jul 16 09:01:30 Python 2.5 under Maemo 3.2 on my N800 is complaining: usb.USBError: couldn't opendir(): No such file or directory Jul 16 09:02:18 This doesn't happen on my desktop, and the IRC logs indicate similar problems with Maemo's Python previously. Any ideas? Jul 16 09:03:04 CountDown: Is this on a jffs, ext2 or vfat partition? Jul 16 09:03:35 CountDown: Pehaps its not happy with vfat? Jul 16 09:03:36 Xark: It's whatever the default Maemo 3.2 partition is. Jul 16 09:03:56 Xark: Not the SD cards. Jul 16 09:04:16 CountDown: OK, thats jffs, which I would assume has proper semantics. Jul 16 09:04:56 I don't even know what would cause such a problem. Jul 16 09:58:42 hmm, Jazelle v1 Architecture Reference Manual requires an NDA :( Jul 16 10:04:43 CountDown: Are you trying to access a USB device? Perhaps you need to make some device nodes in /dev on the N800? Jul 16 10:05:05 lardman: Jazelle == ARM-flavored CPU? Jul 16 10:05:49 Xark: google before asking :) Jul 16 10:06:06 Xark: Jazelle is a hardware extension for some ARM processors (like the one in the N800) that allows direct bytecode execution Jul 16 10:06:37 * lardman was busy with MATLAB Jul 16 10:06:58 matlab. ah that brings back memories Jul 16 10:08:02 lardman: Right, thanks. Some patented crap in there. Jul 16 10:08:18 Xark: Yes, but that's the challenge of course :) ;) Jul 16 10:09:38 lardman: Heh, yes, but its often largely a legal challenge. :) Jul 16 10:10:21 Yeah, I'm not sure about that. What happens if you manage to reverse engineer the process from publically available documentation + guesswork? Jul 16 10:10:36 * lardman wishes! Jul 16 10:11:19 lardman: If its patented, it doesn't matter if you independently invented it 1 day late. The patent owner wins (and if you know its patented and violate it, it can be more damages). Jul 16 10:11:38 (wins unless you have $$$ and good lawyers) Jul 16 10:12:08 Doesn't that depend on whether you sell it. If you mearly give it away, then is there an issue? Jul 16 10:12:15 lardman: However, sometimes you can work around patents (although there is often a performance loss). Jul 16 10:12:23 lardman: Nope. Jul 16 10:12:55 lardman: If giving it away was OK, then Linux would snarf all patented tech around. :) Jul 16 10:13:24 What about gif, isn't that patented? Jul 16 10:13:51 Or at least the compression used in it Jul 16 10:13:53 lardman: Yes, and you needed to pay money if you had code that used it (free or not). Jul 16 10:14:15 lardman: However, now that patent has expired worldwide I believe. Jul 16 10:14:20 Ah, I see Jul 16 10:14:40 lardman: Now its JPEG that isn't safe (damn Lucent). Jul 16 10:17:33 hmm, jpeg decoding is too slow for my liking, certainly when browsing digital photos Jul 16 10:18:07 not related to patents, just got me thinking Jul 16 10:18:50 lardman: On the N800 or in general? Jul 16 10:18:59 Xark: N800 Jul 16 10:19:20 lardman: Yeah. Proably a similar reason as to why youtube is 4 fps. Jul 16 10:19:52 Sounds like a good dsp project :) Jul 16 10:20:00 lardman: I wonder if Nokia is taking advantage of the vfp in the N800 for that stuff. Jul 16 10:20:03 The JPEGs that is Jul 16 10:20:27 hmm. Does there exist such a thing as a bluetooth USB-converter. That is, USB-thing that talks bluetooth to the computer ? (with battery, obviously) Jul 16 10:20:29 Xark: No, nothing much is compiled for vfp, certainly libm isn't Jul 16 10:20:44 lardman: See, now that strikes me as silly. Jul 16 10:20:59 Xark: Size issues I think Jul 16 10:21:09 Xark: Should be in the ml archives Jul 16 10:21:20 lardman: Hmm. I am not buying it (at least for math-heavy routines). Jul 16 10:21:54 Xark: To tell the truth, good fixed point code is often faster, tremor is significantly faster than vorbis iirc Jul 16 10:22:29 lardman: True, it may be for jpeg, but it depends. Jul 16 10:23:18 Xark: Yes. That'd be easy to test Jul 16 10:23:19 lardman: I would have killed for the vfp coding for the Nintendo DS. :) Jul 16 10:24:07 (NDS is ARM4 w/o any FPU let alone VFP). Jul 16 10:24:36 Why was it such an issue? Porting code or writing new? Jul 16 10:25:15 NDS does 3D in a similar fashion to an Atari 2600 doing bitmapped graphics. :) Jul 16 10:25:39 Writing a game (which had 3D elements). Jul 16 10:25:51 All nasty fixed point matrix math and stuff. Jul 16 10:26:08 Yep, easier to understand as floating point Jul 16 10:26:19 But depends on how fast the fp works Jul 16 10:26:29 NDS is wacky (no frame buffer for 3D). Jul 16 10:26:52 lardman: I only know of the VFP from drooling over it while reading the ARM doing DS coding. Jul 16 10:27:39 lardman: Do you know is there a FPU and a VFP or is all float math being done in software on N800? Jul 16 10:27:55 s/is/if/ Jul 16 10:27:55 Xark meant: lardman: Do you know if there a FPU and a VFP or is all float math being done in software on N800? Jul 16 10:28:25 * Xark pats the infobot and tosses it a botsnack. Jul 16 10:28:27 Xark: There is a hardware vfp unit Jul 16 10:28:52 lardman: Yes, but is there also hardware FP unit or are all the binaries using soft-float? Jul 16 10:29:11 (since you said they weren't using the VFP) Jul 16 10:29:16 Xark: But the unit does not actually perform all instructions in hw afaicr, some are done in software. The binaries all (I think) use soft-float (vfp) Jul 16 10:29:43 lardman: Interesting. Jul 16 10:30:19 lardman: Is there any detailed doc about the chip in the N800 available for free (excluding the Jazzy crud)? Jul 16 10:30:25 But if they do as I do, and statically link against a hardware-floting point libm, then some things may use the hardware Jul 16 10:31:11 lardman: I was under the impression that on arm chips with VFP that was typically used for all HW fp math (but I may be wrong). Jul 16 10:31:12 Xark: Yes, there's a doc on the arm site about this processor. Take a look at my email about Jazelle to the maemo-developers list (yesterday?) for an url Jul 16 10:31:25 lardman: Will do. Jul 16 10:31:49 Xark: I think that the vfp unit only handles a subset of the full instruction set, only those things that are used often Jul 16 10:32:05 lardman: I see. That would be very ARM-like. Jul 16 10:32:16 yep Jul 16 10:32:44 though check that as it's just based on something I think I read a while back Jul 16 10:33:23 lardman: When looking at the ARM book I mentioned I remember thinking the instruction set was pretty amazing. That makes sense if they don't have to actually spend all those transistors on it. :) Jul 16 10:33:34 (VFP instruction set) Jul 16 10:34:23 I've not actually looked at the instructions themselves, I was always more interested in whether it gains us anything Jul 16 10:35:04 lardman: I see. I am a long time assembly language person (since when it was basically the only option) so I like looking at the instructions. Jul 16 10:35:28 * lardman is learning to try hacking Jazelle Jul 16 10:36:12 lardman: Were you involved in the interesting patent discussions recently? Jul 16 10:36:34 * Xark can't remember if they were on maemo mailing list or some random google surf he was following... Jul 16 10:36:56 Xark: If you mean on the ml, then yes, that's me Jul 16 10:38:11 lardman: Talking about adding kernel exception vectors and such? Jul 16 10:38:25 Xark: Yes, but I don't think that's needed anymore Jul 16 10:38:43 lardman: Cool. That sounded slow to me anyways. :) Jul 16 10:39:33 Xark: Well Jazelle will do certain instructions in hw, with other infrequently used ones needing to be emulated, so I thought it might work in theory Jul 16 10:40:07 Xark: But from reading that pdf I pointed you too, it appears that SWI and UNDEF exceptions don;t occur in Java mode Jul 16 10:41:16 Xark: So the exception vector table can't be the answer (thankfully) Jul 16 10:42:13 hmm, I may be wrong about cfp only doing a subset, googling seems to indicate it does the whole of IEE754 Jul 16 10:42:18 s/cfp/vfp Jul 16 10:44:47 lardman: Does that mean it honors the whole spec, or that its all implemented in HW? Jul 16 10:45:18 Xark: That I don;t know Jul 16 10:45:50 lardman: Excepting the PS2 almost everything is IEEE complient these days (and I think Java is even more strict). Jul 16 10:46:57 hmm, I seem to remember that software vfp isn't, or at least it doesn't produce the same results as hardware vfp Jul 16 10:47:13 though there is some latitude in the specification Jul 16 10:49:27 ah no, I was thinking of issues with Octave http://people.bath.ac.uk/enpsgp/floating_point.html, right at the bottom, paranoia passed all the platforms as being compliant Jul 16 10:50:27 Outputs here: http://people.bath.ac.uk/enpsgp/benchmarks/ Jul 16 11:03:08 lardman: Interesting. I need to dig out my ARM book... Jul 16 11:13:23 Xark: Please let me know if you have any thoughts Jul 16 11:16:43 lardman: Just reading some google threads regarding N800 vfp and soft float. Sounds like what you said earlier, it uses a soft-float abi but somehow stll gets win from vfp (perhaps using HW inside GCC lib code). Jul 16 11:17:48 I understood "n800" in that sentence Jul 16 11:18:14 and that was it Jul 16 11:18:31 Radar: lardman talks about "virtual floating point" Jul 16 11:18:37 vector Jul 16 11:18:42 vector floating point Jul 16 11:18:44 ouch, sorry Jul 16 11:18:48 np Jul 16 11:19:00 soft-float is making the calculations without using hardware Jul 16 11:19:04 right? Jul 16 11:19:19 vfp can be performed in hw or sw, n800 has the hardware, but the Nokia software doesn't use it for much atm Jul 16 11:19:23 gomiam: yep Jul 16 11:19:32 unless it is ussed to make a game, not interested! Jul 16 11:19:44 Radar: you should be interested in vector floating point Jul 16 11:19:54 vfp is a specific floating point instruction set used by ARM Jul 16 11:20:07 if well used it can make video/audio treatment much more efficient Jul 16 11:20:23 consider the MMX extensions in Intel processors Jul 16 11:20:28 only translated to floating point Jul 16 11:20:45 hmm, well the N800 processor has things like MMX, simd instructions, etc. Jul 16 11:20:54 so not quite the same, but right idea Jul 16 11:21:12 MMX extensions, IIRC, are SIMD Jul 16 11:21:34 (mostly, at least) Jul 16 11:21:38 I should repeat that sentence, it could be read the wrong way -> yep it has features that are like MMX, e.g. simd instructions Jul 16 11:21:46 np Jul 16 11:21:47 :-D Jul 16 11:22:39 yes, the moment you start talking about vector operations, SIMD is to be expected, usually Jul 16 11:22:54 well, I'll get back to studying :-P Jul 16 11:23:03 Dare I say this assembly programming is quite interesting to learn :) Jul 16 11:23:23 my mind isn't parallelized enough yet (working on it, though) Jul 16 11:24:25 I would say that VFP is more similar to Intel SSE (MMX is integer). Jul 16 11:24:50 Same kind of stuff though. Jul 16 11:25:34 well hw vfp is a coprocessor, so it's I'd say just like standard floating point coprocessors Jul 16 11:25:45 semantics anyway Jul 16 11:29:32 I am just talking functionally. MMX is 64 bit integer stuff. SSE is 128-bit 4xfloat just like VFP on ARM. Jul 16 11:30:38 I wonder whether any of the standard libs use things like the ARM Media Extensions or DSP extensions? (http://www.arm.com/pdfs/ARM-DSP.pdf, http://www.arm.com/products/CPUs/arch-simd.html) Jul 16 11:30:39 E.g., MMX = (mostly) faster blitting audio mixing, SSE = faster 3D math Jul 16 11:31:21 lardman: Other than perhaps some codecs and other Nokia specific things, I doubt it. Jul 16 11:31:41 Xark: I was just thinking about making JPEG browsing tolerable Jul 16 11:31:57 Xark: Another little project to add to the list :) Jul 16 11:32:17 lardman: I haven't looked at any of the DSP stuff, but it sounds very promising (unless the DSPs suck or something). Jul 16 11:32:47 Xark: Ah, these extensions are in the ARM core, not the DSP Jul 16 11:33:07 lardman: Ahh, you mean the MADD stuff. Jul 16 11:33:28 Like 2x16-bit multiply add. Jul 16 11:33:50 Xark: The DSP has a slightly steep learning curve, but I have some code for doing G.711 (my first test case), I just need to convert my short->char function to a int->16bit char function Jul 16 11:34:02 Xark: Yes, those are the ones Jul 16 11:34:25 lardman: I think even the DS had those (but they weren't too useful to me at the time). Jul 16 11:35:02 lardman: Mostly good for audio mixing and other stuff, but I assume since the load is so low playing AAC and MP3 radio that the N800 has some kind of decent codec HW support. Jul 16 11:35:25 Xark: Yep mp3 & aac are handled on the DSP Jul 16 11:35:43 Xark: Video is done on the ARM though Jul 16 11:36:13 though on the 770 video used to be on the DSP too Jul 16 11:36:18 lardman: Yeah. I was reading the mplayer threads about how the N800 video bus is 3x _slower_ than N770. Jul 16 11:37:00 *Bzzt* Wrong direction :) Jul 16 11:38:49 Serge/ssvb/Siarhei Siamashka would be someone to talk to about the ARM DSP/media extensions Jul 16 11:39:21 He's been doing assembly hacking to improve mplayer performance Jul 16 11:54:49 indeed, the bus connecting the arm to the lcd controller is kind of slow for the N800 Jul 16 11:59:15 wumpus: Seems noticeably slow even just scrolling in the browser and redrawing the screen. Do any scrolling games run fast? Jul 16 12:07:14 Also, anybody notice that the lowercase "g" is missing pieces at certain sizes in the courier font (monospaced web text). Some kind of ugly scaling or bad antialising. Jul 16 12:07:46 well I don't think the bus is that slow you should notice, I mean, you can play video in realtime Jul 16 12:08:08 Xark, yeah, I was reading a finnish ircquotes site, and had trouble reading some letters, took me a while to recognise it as a g Jul 16 12:08:37 agreed on the fonts btw Jul 16 12:09:34 wumpis: Well thats why I was asking about a game. Do SDL games hit the framebuffer directly or does everything go through X? Jul 16 12:09:48 er, wumpus Jul 16 12:09:58 (sorry) Jul 16 12:10:28 I have no idea, I do know that the framebuffer is 'fake', so if you update it directly nothing happend, it needs to be manually resynced over the LCD bus Jul 16 12:10:40 I mean it's not memory mapped Jul 16 12:11:29 this is probably also why the DSP does not decode video on the N800 Jul 16 12:17:28 wumpus: Yeah, so you just play with a block of memory then slowly stream it to the LCD memory. Jul 16 12:18:35 * Xark thinks back to Genesis, ColecoVision and other VDPs without direct FB access. Jul 16 12:18:43 Xark: no HWsurface in sdl on nokia Jul 16 12:18:54 it's all a copy through X Jul 16 12:19:05 are you interested in sdl games? Jul 16 12:19:30 pupnik: Not too surprised about that. Even on desktop Linux is rare to see HWsurface nowadays (other than perhaps 320x200). Jul 16 12:19:54 pupnik: I have been toying with it since way back. Jul 16 12:19:56 the hacker who did mplayer has code to write straight to FB mem Jul 16 12:20:10 we could write a sdl hwsurface lib based on his code Jul 16 12:20:12 well i couldn't Jul 16 12:20:32 you can write directly to FB mem. but it won't help you Jul 16 12:20:45 it is possible, but most of the performance probelms are in the SDL games themselves Jul 16 12:20:53 it's not the framebuffer of the hardware you're writing to but a software mirror Jul 16 12:20:56 as I explained Jul 16 12:21:02 pupnik: Hmm, I'm sure I could add support for that to SDL (given a glimpse at the code that does the xfer). Jul 16 12:21:19 the kernel takes care of copying the changed parts of the framebuffer via a serial interface to the LCD controller Jul 16 12:21:42 look at mplayer Xark... it also has some faster memcpy and memmove Jul 16 12:21:46 wumpus: As long as there is a clean way to get X out of the way so you don't fight over the screen (aka fullscreen mode). Jul 16 12:21:54 yes there is Jul 16 12:22:01 yeah I'm sure you can do that Jul 16 12:22:03 it's not 100% solid tho Jul 16 12:22:24 killing the process can leave you with a mess, especially if you have xsp enabled Jul 16 12:22:28 pupnik: I will have to see if I can compile native SDL games first (so far only text apps). Jul 16 12:22:53 Xark: check my stuff at http://pupnik.de and if you are interested in any of that, i'll give you sauces Jul 16 12:23:56 pupnik: it's the same if fullscreen media player dies Jul 16 12:23:58 pupnik: Cool. I am daring to be different and trying to do fully native development (i.e., compile on the N800). I figure its faster than the AMD 486-100 I developed on for years. :-) Jul 16 12:24:45 there is no excuse to develop on the device Jul 16 12:25:09 pupnik: SDL typically had a "parachute" to restore the screen in case of crash/exit (signal handler, really). Jul 16 12:25:50 well get started on something - tons of good sdl apps Jul 16 12:25:58 pupnik: Only the challenge. :-) Besides, I don't have a Linux box set up anymore and want a solid state one. Jul 16 12:26:20 fine, whatever is fun for you Jul 16 12:26:38 pupnik: I have a working compiler and ssh, so I am mostly happy. Having trouble compiling a new binutils/gcc, but I can see moving on to SDL. Jul 16 12:26:52 people who want to get things done don't set up artificial hurdles though Jul 16 12:26:53 pupnik: I have the VMWare dev image worst case. Jul 16 12:26:57 ok Jul 16 12:27:12 you obviously don't have professional programming experience Jul 16 12:27:15 pupnik: THe compile time is not the barrier. Jul 16 12:27:39 pupnuk: Hehe, why do you say that. Jul 16 12:28:09 goal-oriented attitude Jul 16 12:28:39 pupnik: This is my hobby. I am a professional game developer (and am a veteran one - started professionally on the Atari 2600). Jul 16 12:28:53 wow ok Jul 16 12:29:20 we could really use DrPocketSNES on the nokias Jul 16 12:29:23 snes9x is too slow Jul 16 12:29:45 it's form the gp2x tree... i spend a couple of weeks merging the two and its a mess Jul 16 12:29:46 pupnik: My goal is to have a nice solid-state linux box to develop little SDL games on for a hobby. I see no hardware/speed reason that the device is not up to it. In fact I was shocked that I couldn't just "apt-get" a full dev toolchain. Jul 16 12:29:55 if you want to work on it, i can give you my work in progress Jul 16 12:29:59 hmm Jul 16 12:30:22 I did Linux development on a 3.3 bogomips machine with 8MB for a few years. :-) Jul 16 12:30:54 my first professional work was on an 80286 back in 87 Jul 16 12:31:12 you not having a pc for scratchbox is strange and suspicious Jul 16 12:32:24 pupnik: I have a PC, I am doing "real" work on it at the moment (while I ssh to the N800 and IRC on the 2nd monitor). Jul 16 12:33:18 pupnik: I just don't have a dedicated Linux box up and running. Jul 16 12:34:27 pupnik: I am just toying and learning about the N800 at the moment. Jul 16 12:35:14 pupnik: Its currently acting as my ssh/router/web server (so I can get to my PC via it from outside over SSH tunnel). Jul 16 12:36:34 pupnik: I am also interested in the toolchain because it doesn't look like the current binaries are taking optimum use of the CPU (with VFP at least). Jul 16 12:36:34 <_Monkey> okay, Xark. Jul 16 12:36:39 well yeah if you want to develop on the device itself why not Jul 16 12:37:16 Once I ssh to it, I can't really tell what device it is (and the window is bigger than the VMWare one on my 20" LCD). Jul 16 12:39:06 * Xark notices its way past time for bed...ZZZzzz night all. Jul 16 14:16:19 Interesting announcement on Maemo-developers about Telepathy Jul 16 14:22:58 mmm i'll check it out Jul 16 14:23:13 i just had an idea about the osso-statusbar-cpu Jul 16 14:24:12 would be useful if it notified you when some user process was using excessive cpu and prompt to kill it (with an adjustable timeout, that would kill it in x seconds if the cpu usage keeps up) Jul 16 14:24:29 hi Jul 16 14:27:45 disq, I do accept patches ;) Jul 16 14:28:13 inz: i tried but the compiler kept spitting out errors Jul 16 14:28:20 oh Jul 16 14:28:24 inz: about "Link:: command not found" in libtool Jul 16 14:28:31 interesting Jul 16 14:28:35 depcomp had it, I deleted it and ran autogen Jul 16 14:28:39 now it's in libtool Jul 16 14:29:06 which sdk did you compile this on? i'm trying with bora (3.0 i think) Jul 16 14:29:20 3.0 it should be Jul 16 14:29:34 Try from svn? Jul 16 14:29:40 i will Jul 16 14:29:59 and also i couldn't figure out how to turn the /proc/stat info (ticks, i think) to percentages Jul 16 14:31:29 ticks_process * 100 / ticks_all? Jul 16 14:33:10 mm.. guess i wasn't thinking. thanks :) Jul 16 14:33:38 any sign of Quim? Jul 16 14:33:47 (i'm new to the idle ticks stuff) Jul 16 14:33:53 dneary: probably in guadec? Jul 16 14:34:31 he is Jul 16 14:34:32 disq, I've done that in dialog.c Jul 16 14:34:39 but they have network in the UK these days, I hear Jul 16 14:34:48 :) Jul 16 14:34:56 disq, other thing I'd like to figure out, is how to combine threads under one entry in mem "hogs" Jul 16 14:35:29 that i have no idea. even "top" confuses me sometimes Jul 16 14:35:48 =) Jul 16 14:36:15 summer holidays. guadec. etc. Jul 16 14:36:30 don't expect anything to happen until september. Jul 16 14:36:41 ooh the new release is interesting. let me grab my n800 from the charger Jul 16 14:37:11 i had a standard nokia to tiny nokia adapter but i lost it somewhere in the house, i keep the charger in the bedroom Jul 16 14:37:56 I carry the charger in the same bag I carry the N800 :-) Jul 16 14:38:07 much easier for drive-by recharging :-D Jul 16 14:38:32 i carry the n800 in my pants pocket. or in my photo bag Jul 16 14:39:08 that's not an option in my case. I already carry too many things in my pants pockets :-D Jul 16 14:39:08 (i have another tiny-plug charger but i also lost the us to european plug adapter so can't use it) Jul 16 14:50:10 I installed gpecalendar and now I seem to have a slight problem... When I boot the 770, there is a message that says that it can not open gpecalendar file, at which point the unit reboot and the process starts all over again. Does anyone know what file I need to edit so that gpecalendar doesn't start at boot time? Jul 16 14:51:12 I figured I would mount the mmc filesystem and remove whatever needs to removed in order to boot properly again... Jul 16 14:59:46 Feral_Kid: the file in question won't be on the MMC. You could try disabling the lifeguard restart using a flasher Jul 16 15:02:39 Jaffa> I am not sure what you mean about the lifeguard... There is no file that defines what is loaded at boot time... For instance, when I boot off the flash, it boots with no problem, so there is nothing that doesn't stop applications from trying to start when I boot off the mmc. Jul 16 15:04:56 Feral_Kid: Oh, I didn't realise you were MMC booting. Jul 16 15:05:09 http://www.hotchickswithdouchebags.com Jul 16 15:05:12 ^^ laulz Jul 16 15:05:12 Feral_Kid: You need to remove the gpecalendar.desktop file. Jul 16 15:05:40 Feral_Kid: /usr/share/applications/hildon-home/gpe-calendar-home.desktop (from http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2007/01/29/resizing_gpe_calendar_on_os_2007) Jul 16 15:23:27 Jaffa> Ok, did that, but what I get now is "event_db_new: unable to open database:/ home/user/.gpe/calendar, and then I click ok, it starts a reboot... I did remove the gpe-calendar-home.desktop file... Jul 16 15:25:02 hmm, is it just me or does the browser not open when you click on a bookmark Jul 16 15:28:09 just you Jul 16 15:28:11 ... Jul 16 15:28:20 I must be special then Jul 16 15:28:52 yup! Jul 16 15:29:05 :D Jul 16 15:34:36 hello cruel world Jul 16 15:34:45 i have a document that mentions Hildon Jul 16 15:34:55 unfortunately it was written before Hildon moved to Gnome Jul 16 15:35:09 can someone provide a 5-9 word description of Hildon? :) Jul 16 15:35:31 (hildon to fit in a sugar snap pea shell) Jul 16 15:35:34 It's a GUI framework that the Maemo os uses Jul 16 15:35:48 And all hildon widgets are GTK+-widgets Jul 16 15:35:54 sorry, that doesn't work Jul 16 15:36:14 hildon is upstream of maemo, so mentioning maemo in the description is faulty Jul 16 15:36:32 that's like me calling Linux "An os for Maemo embedded devices" Jul 16 15:36:49 i can do it, but millions of people will bite my head off Jul 16 15:36:57 it's a gui frame work for mobile devices...? Jul 16 15:37:10 that better? Jul 16 15:37:14 yes Jul 16 15:37:27 But maemo is currently the only one that uses it Jul 16 15:37:38 that's not true... Jul 16 15:37:47 there's an ubuntu that uses hildon too Jul 16 15:37:47 * timeless watches sulis bite theril's head off Jul 16 15:37:55 Oh, sure :) Jul 16 15:38:13 :P Jul 16 15:38:34 User Interface framework for mombile devices? Jul 16 15:38:40 But hildon was originally designed for maemo Jul 16 15:38:41 i'm not that bitchy atm, haven't had a caffeine infusion recently Jul 16 15:38:58 theril: sure, but describing something by what it was doesn't win points Jul 16 15:39:09 I'm so very sorry Jul 16 15:39:14 if i called Hildon "Gimp ToolKit based whatever for Maemo" Jul 16 15:39:26 i'm sure people would bite my head off for the former too Jul 16 15:39:53 sorry, i know what things were, i'm fixing them to avoid being perceived as out of date Jul 16 15:45:18 Anyone have a link to a description of the compression that is carried out for a2dp? Jul 16 15:46:35 is that SBC? Jul 16 15:46:51 no idea, just fishing for DSP ideas Jul 16 15:47:01 www.obluestack.com/pdf/oblue2SOUND-web.pdf Jul 16 15:47:14 ok, back to words... Jul 16 15:47:35 timeless: Thanks, I'll have a read Jul 16 15:48:08 how do you spell cOmUnItY sItE ? :) Jul 16 15:48:21 or is there no such thing? Jul 16 15:48:30 (and yes, obviously the case for letters is important) Jul 16 15:48:42 two ms in community? Jul 16 15:48:47 (spelling also counts :) Jul 16 15:49:06 heck, while I'm at it, what *is* that site? (url?) Jul 16 15:49:40 lardman: sure, but, "maemo Community site", "Maemo Community Site", "maemo Community Site", ... Jul 16 15:50:08 * timeless suspects that this means "garage" Jul 16 15:50:23 Good question, maemo is not capitalised on the website Jul 16 15:50:51 lardman: Bluez-project has an open source implementation of SBC if that's of any help Jul 16 15:50:51 i'm pretty sure there's a rule that maemo is never capitalized except at the beginning of sentences Jul 16 15:51:15 If you could do the cool 'e' in the middle of maemo, then keep it all lower case Jul 16 15:51:38 theril: thanks Jul 16 15:51:58 And A2DP supports also other codecs, such as MP3 Jul 16 15:52:21 But SBC is the only one that has to be supported by A2DP devices Jul 16 15:52:50 lardman: A2DP spec: http://www.bluetooth.com/NR/rdonlyres/800D10CD-DE3D-4D51-ABC0-726C8DF26151/921/A2DPspecv10.pdf Jul 16 15:52:59 theril: But I suppose you have to choose your headset if you want only mp3 Jul 16 15:55:16 lardman: Yes Jul 16 15:56:02 right... so Jul 16 15:56:08 what is the maemo community site? :) Jul 16 15:56:20 At least the N800 can do realtime mp3 decoding and perhaps SBC encoding on top, so it could be possible to do it without DSP too Jul 16 15:56:51 theril: But it would be nice to be able to output audio to a2dp while playing a movie too Jul 16 15:57:04 lardman: That could be done by gstreamer Jul 16 15:57:26 Alsa has a plugin that can act as a a2dp sink Jul 16 15:57:38 theril: In terms of cpu usage though Jul 16 15:57:48 Ah, sorry :) Jul 16 15:57:58 theril: I was thinking of an SBC dspsink Jul 16 15:58:15 theril: Though it may be rather hard Jul 16 15:58:33 can you change the window manager on the 770? Jul 16 16:01:14 lardman: Is it possible to get the encrypted data back to the pipeline from the sink? Jul 16 16:01:36 timeless: Definition of maemo.org really shouldn't change in your doc. What've you currently got? Jul 16 16:04:34 I've got scratchbox set up, but when I go to compile something more complicated than a hello-world type program, I find that I haven't met all of the dependancies (things like flex aren't installed) Jul 16 16:04:38 lardman: Paper describing how to implement SBC in DSP: http://www.amis.com/tech_resources/dsp_technology_papers/ICASSP2004_SBC.pdf Jul 16 16:04:40 how are these dependancies generally met? Jul 16 16:05:04 db48x: Does apt-get install flex work? Jul 16 16:05:08 apt-get builddep foo Jul 16 16:05:14 or something very close to that Jul 16 16:05:30 build-dep Jul 16 16:05:31 build-dep Jul 16 16:05:47 theril: db48x would die trying to do it by hand Jul 16 16:05:56 db48x: you actually want a meta package Jul 16 16:06:00 apt-get install flex doesn't work, no Jul 16 16:06:05 there shoudl be one or two nice ones available Jul 16 16:06:13 lemme see if i can find the one someone gave me last week :) Jul 16 16:06:45 sure, anything to speed things alog Jul 16 16:06:47 along Jul 16 16:07:09 whoa, apt-get build-dep flex wants to remove 59 packages Jul 16 16:07:46 hildon-this, hildon-that, maemo-launcher-whatsit Jul 16 16:08:12 db48x: nice :) Jul 16 16:08:19 you don't want build-dep flex Jul 16 16:08:25 you want build-dep {thing you're going to work on} Jul 16 16:08:30 which almost certainly isn't flex :) Jul 16 16:09:09 oh, right Jul 16 16:09:17 well, that's what I did, and it told me it needs flex Jul 16 16:10:37 personally i like living in the dark ages Jul 16 16:10:55 if you're using some platform newer than 770, well, life gets err, more interesting :) Jul 16 16:11:41 db48x: For build-dep to work the package must exist in your repositories Jul 16 16:12:04 What are you trying to compile? Jul 16 16:12:55 theril: he can't say Jul 16 16:22:18 my n800 shipped! It'll be here on wednesday Jul 16 16:34:44 theril: Thanks for the link. Looks like it wouldn't be a quick project Jul 16 16:35:15 c u all tomorrow Jul 16 16:40:57 right Jul 16 16:41:09 so, is it "GTK", or "GTK Toolkit", or something else? Jul 16 16:43:21 former Jul 16 16:43:24 see ATM Machine Jul 16 16:43:32 or PIN Number Jul 16 16:49:14 Maybe Gtk+ should be renamed to Gtk+ ToolKit (instead of Gimp ToolKit), so we'd have one of those oh-so-fun recursive acronyms Jul 16 16:53:02 how about Gtk+ Isn't a Toolkit for an even more funny denying-the-obvious recursive acronym Jul 16 16:54:26 inz: where's the osso-statusbar-cpu svn/cvs located? Jul 16 17:22:19 disq, http://maemo-hackers.org/svn/osso-statusbar-cpu/trunk/ Jul 16 17:22:36 ah, m-h Jul 16 17:28:06 disq, for performance reasons, it might make more sense to monitor the overall cpu usage, and only if it is too high for an certain amount of time, it would investigate who is using it Jul 16 17:29:18 yeah that's the way i'm planning it Jul 16 17:29:34 afterall the high cpu monitor is to save battery Jul 16 17:29:59 yeah Jul 16 18:50:50 can anyone help me setup an n800 scrathbox environment Jul 16 18:50:59 The following packages have unmet dependencies: Jul 16 18:50:59 bluez-utils: Depends: module-init-tools Jul 16 18:50:59 dpkg: Depends: coreutils or Jul 16 18:50:59 textutils (>= 2.0-3) but it is not installable Jul 16 18:51:00 <_Monkey> i already had it that way, cbx33. Jul 16 18:51:07 i can't dist-upgrade Jul 16 18:51:08 why? Jul 16 18:52:52 _Monkey, ? Jul 16 18:52:52 <_Monkey> i haven't a clue, cbx33 Jul 16 18:53:05 poo Jul 16 18:53:10 been trying this for days now Jul 16 18:54:25 it's this step where it fails Jul 16 18:54:26 PAGER=less fakeroot apt-get dist-upgrade Jul 16 18:54:33 in the 3.2 INSTALL.txt guide Jul 16 18:54:36 any one know why? Jul 16 18:59:07 cbx33: what kind or errors do you get?/ setup do you have? Jul 16 18:59:34 keesj, Jul 16 18:59:35 well Jul 16 18:59:39 did you try to find out what that module-init-tools is? Jul 16 18:59:55 keesj, that's just the start there's like 20 pacakges it can't install Jul 16 18:59:58 want a pastebin? Jul 16 18:59:58 :p Jul 16 19:00:07 the main one holding things up is pkg-config Jul 16 19:00:10 yes Jul 16 19:00:52 http://pastebin.ca/622230 Jul 16 19:02:09 see Jul 16 19:02:10 :p Jul 16 19:02:50 and "apt-get -f install" does not fix it right? Jul 16 19:03:35 no tries to remove too much Jul 16 19:04:06 when I run apt-cache policy pkg-config ( on 3.1) I get http://paste-it.net/2871 Jul 16 19:04:36 did you install by hand? does 3.2 requires the creation of the virtual packages just like for 3.1? Jul 16 19:04:49 pkg-config: Jul 16 19:04:49 Installed: (none) Jul 16 19:04:49 Candidate: (none) Jul 16 19:04:49 Version Table: Jul 16 19:04:57 no idea dude Jul 16 19:05:00 this is a 3.1 install Jul 16 19:05:05 hoping to upgrade to 3.2 Jul 16 19:05:26 did you install it be "hand" or did you use the installer scripts , is your install debian based or not? Jul 16 19:05:29 if i remove the /scratchbox dir I can start again right Jul 16 19:05:35 i used the installer scripts Jul 16 19:05:43 or so i thought Jul 16 19:05:44 actuall Jul 16 19:05:48 lemme ty something Jul 16 19:06:41 inz: the averaging last x samples code is ready, just calls a hildon_banner now. moving on to the process detection thingy Jul 16 19:08:22 ok keesj starting again Jul 16 19:08:25 let's see how this goes Jul 16 19:28:51 should the maemo 3.1 installer, setup the targets for you too? Jul 16 19:29:26 ahhh Jul 16 19:29:42 i installed the maemo-scratchbox-install_3.1.sh Jul 16 19:29:57 do I now need to do maemo-sdk-install.sh? Jul 16 19:31:23 ahhh Jul 16 19:31:24 ok Jul 16 19:31:27 might be getting there Jul 16 19:34:23 that more like it ! Jul 16 19:46:42 ok Jul 16 19:46:51 now I'm getting the can't resolve repository Jul 16 19:47:02 I edit /etc/resolv.conf Jul 16 19:47:06 and nssswitch.conf Jul 16 19:47:13 but it's still not resolving any ideas? Jul 16 19:47:19 that fixed it last time Jul 16 19:52:45 cbx33: yes Jul 16 19:53:54 vi /scratchbox/etc/nsswitch.conf != Jul 16 19:53:54 vi /etc/nsswitch.conf inside sbox! Jul 16 19:53:54 change the line that contains Jul 16 19:53:54 hosts with Jul 16 19:53:54 hosts: files dns Jul 16 19:53:54 <_Monkey> keesj: that doesn't look right Jul 16 19:54:31 bot? Jul 16 19:56:19 _Monkey: So it's ubuntu you are running :p Jul 16 19:56:20 <_Monkey> OK, keesj. Jul 16 19:56:37 coool Jul 16 19:56:39 thanks keesj Jul 16 19:56:41 forgot that Jul 16 19:57:02 _Monkey: can you please stop? Jul 16 19:57:03 <_Monkey> i haven't a clue, keesj Jul 16 19:57:42 wooooooooooooohooooooooo Jul 16 19:57:44 it's updating Jul 16 19:58:06 time to stop , now it's stil working :) bye Jul 16 20:03:45 ok cool Jul 16 20:03:51 so now i have these things working Jul 16 20:04:06 how do i cross compile stuff Jul 16 20:15:14 I am looking for anybody that has any information about btscanner on N800, OS 2007... the libbluetooth1-dev debian files are GONE from the mistral repository on maemo.org ;( Jul 16 20:17:14 did you try the gregale and scirocco repositories? tho you should try the bora rep first Jul 16 20:17:33 each release has a different codename in os2006 and that makes things complicated Jul 16 20:21:13 yeah is there a map that kinda puts all that into a table so people new to the maemo scene have an easier time of it? :) Jul 16 20:32:00 if i gcc something in the pc sdk of scratchbox Jul 16 20:32:06 how do i compile it in the ARM one? Jul 16 20:35:44 I'm getting a strange Python error on Maemo that I don't get on my Ubuntu machine: usb.USBError: couldn't opendir(): No such file or directory Jul 16 20:35:47 Any ideas? Jul 16 21:09:26 ping OgMaciel Jul 16 21:10:07 cbx33: Is that a suggestion for me? Jul 16 21:10:14 no...hehe Jul 16 21:10:16 sorry Jul 16 21:10:28 cbx33: pong Jul 16 21:10:41 Did you point Lucas in my directoin? Jul 16 21:10:55 cbx33: that I did Jul 16 21:10:57 I've done all I can to get his stuff looked at Jul 16 21:11:08 I've even offered to be his "official" mentor Jul 16 21:11:11 if ogra is busy Jul 16 21:11:16 as I see he's getting loads of help Jul 16 21:11:26 cbx33: I figured you'd be the right person to look into this Jul 16 21:11:32 heh Jul 16 21:11:34 I can but try Jul 16 21:11:42 got my scratchbox all set up now Jul 16 21:11:45 cbx33: that is better that what he ahd :) Jul 16 21:11:49 is it safe to change 'user's shell? Jul 16 21:12:03 s/that/than Jul 16 21:12:35 doko is looking into it tomorrow Jul 16 21:12:43 and I emailed leslie at google about it tii Jul 16 22:20:39 hmm. Tempted by the commmunication beta thing... Jul 16 22:22:39 Anyone know why /mnt/initfs/lib/modules/current is linked to /lib/modules/2.6.18-omap1, which doesn't exist? Jul 16 22:47:51 Xark: Thanks for the pointer for booting from the the MMC. I just finished and it works great. Jul 16 22:50:11 hmmf. Gotta wait till tomorrow, atleast.for the communication beta-thing. Known bug. Jul 17 00:53:11 are there any tools for maemo development on windows Jul 17 00:53:24 or do i have to use the dev vm? Jul 17 00:53:41 that everyone would recommend.. Jul 17 00:53:58 i guess you could write python without as is Jul 17 00:54:27 what i thought Jul 17 00:54:38 no biggie Jul 17 00:54:56 is Konttori in? Jul 17 00:55:42 does any body know whar the file name for the top toolbar and the side toolbar in the main UI? I am trying to change my themes top and side img Jul 17 01:10:13 any body? Jul 17 01:46:45 http://pimlico-project.org/dates.html#screenshots that looks like a decent calendar app.. Jul 17 01:46:55 i dunno what others are using Jul 17 01:47:25 thanks, i have been trying to get a cal for awhile Jul 17 01:53:03 I'd like to create a job position for myself at Nokia. Description: Surf the web and look for candidate apps to be integrated in the core it2006/2007 repository, send feedback to authors on packaging problems etc, fix what can be fixed quickly. Jul 17 01:55:16 lol. thats what they have the community for. we do it all for free Jul 17 02:01:54 Dates is kind of clumsy Jul 17 02:01:59 I like the GPE calendar a lot better Jul 17 02:02:02 and it syncs Jul 17 02:03:35 you got a link? Jul 17 02:07:22 Vertoo: http://cleardefinition.com/page/Sync_Evolution_and_GPE_on_N800/ Jul 17 02:13:03 thanks Jul 17 02:22:11 Anybody tell me how to show the cursor on the N800 for use with Synergy? Jul 17 02:22:17 Script on the garage doesn't seem to work. Jul 17 02:23:08 Vertoo: np - if you find problems with the instructions, let me know - that's my web site Jul 17 02:26:02 Nevermind, fixed it. Thanks guys! :P Jul 17 02:31:59 has there been any progress on the BT mouse front? Jul 17 02:32:07 megabyte405: i dont need to sync anything, and im sure many others don't either. also have red pill set up and all, so a one click install at the top would be nice. from one devesigner to another, a button at the top, maybe a nice gel effect with mouse over effect. green with white would look good Jul 17 02:32:19 :D Jul 17 02:32:29 The point of the page really is to get syncing Jul 17 02:32:37 I suppose I could link more directly to the one-click install files Jul 17 02:32:46 you don't need red pill for them Jul 17 02:33:42 ya, cause just skimming through there i couldn't find a one click. and dont really have time to read the whole thing lol Jul 17 02:34:48 guess not :-/ Jul 17 02:34:59 Luria: never tried Jul 17 02:35:12 there, now I put the link in the install gpe section in addition to the "what you need" section, for those low on attention or patience :D Jul 17 02:36:39 besides that, you will find that people are as lazy as they can be. most wont get the most out of their nokias cause they dont wanna go through the trouble of finding apps and all. its a shame Jul 17 02:42:22 is this your first website? or have you been developing for a while? Jul 17 02:42:58 megabyte405: ^ Jul 17 02:43:32 Vertoo: I've been developing for a while, but I didn't put a lot of effort into this because I needed to bootstrap it quick for Google Summer of Code Jul 17 02:43:37 so it is certainly not my best work Jul 17 02:44:08 I know it's a little wordy - but I wanted to get enough keywords in there so anybody searching would find the stuff - before I made that page, there was no N800 GPE sync instructions online Jul 17 02:44:57 gotcha. may i suggest something? Jul 17 02:45:06 sure Jul 17 02:45:16 but do keep in mind, this is not my masterpiece - it's a working document Jul 17 02:46:53 since your target audience will likely read that on their nokia, a simple anchor navigation would improve it alot, i a. browsing on mine, and still cant find that one click install just by browsing through it. Jul 17 02:46:58 GeneralAntilles: did you find the answer yet? Jul 17 02:47:06 nokia is not my target market for the site Jul 17 02:47:19 it's my personal web site/document storage - I just happened to write a page useful for nokia folks Jul 17 02:47:24 Yes, it's working. Thanks. Jul 17 02:47:36 i understand the document style site, which is why navigation is essential. Jul 17 02:47:37 I should add internal anchor navs to the site engine, though, that would be useful Jul 17 02:47:55 i didn't know there is a script. How did you get it working? I would like an easy way to enable the cursor *only* when synergy is running Jul 17 02:48:11 because cursor breaks xsp pixel doubling when you touch the screen Jul 17 02:48:16 i didn't look at the site, just the page. Jul 17 02:48:23 * megabyte405 is using a mildly-to-heavily hacked up wiki engine Jul 17 02:48:46 * megabyte405 adds internal navs to the RFE list Jul 17 02:48:50 Is there a doc somewhere that explains the basic methods to compile software using the sk? (using indt image) Jul 17 02:49:05 rhsanborn: same way you would on linux Jul 17 02:49:06 pupnik, it can only be changed back and forth after a reboot, so I don't see any way to have it change only with Synergy activation. Jul 17 02:49:19 megabyte405: great, thanks Jul 17 02:49:42 easiest thing to do is to get debian source packages and do dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot inside of them Jul 17 02:49:53 excuse me if i sound pretentious or come off rude. i have been designing for a few years, mostly personal stuff, but i have always appreciated others input Jul 17 02:50:00 GeneralAntilles: so much to do, so little time Jul 17 02:50:21 Hehe Jul 17 02:51:34 Vertoo: no, that's a good point Jul 17 02:51:47 It would be relatively easy for me to add an automatic anchor at each heading Jul 17 02:51:57 the harder part is coming up with a sane way to refer to it, but that's not too bad Jul 17 02:52:29 I generally keep pages small enough that I don't need anchors, but it probably helps search engine stuff too, I bet Jul 17 02:54:05 ya it does, plus when people can jump the page to exactly where they need to go they like it more. Jul 17 02:59:30 GeneralAntilles: you know about the hack to prevent the enter key from bringing-up the onscreen keyboard in synergy? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jul 17 02:59:59 2007