**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Aug 20 02:59:56 2007 Aug 20 03:05:37 Rocketman: Yah, just set i up today Aug 20 03:06:06 Anyone know if any bluetooth headsets work with the 770 yet? Aug 20 03:08:40 Do you have volume issues with video in Orb, sometimes? Aug 20 03:09:23 Yes, it is very low Aug 20 03:09:37 I usually just pop in headphones, then it sounds fine Aug 20 03:10:10 yeah, I have the volume at max most the time and can hardly hear it Aug 20 03:10:49 Rocketman: Yup, just plug in some headphones Aug 20 03:11:21 ...but I like my speakers! Aug 20 03:11:52 Rocketman: Ah, ok Aug 20 03:13:35 I also get a "Video resolution not supported" message when using MicroB Aug 20 03:13:58 That'll teach you. Aug 20 03:14:00 I have to use Opera to get it to work Aug 20 03:15:39 So is there any headset support for the 770? Aug 20 03:15:42 wired or not Aug 20 03:18:33 bye Aug 20 03:39:26 can someone dcc me a smoke? Aug 20 03:40:14 gcc on n800? Aug 20 03:40:22 DCC SEND LURIA_A_SMOKE_AND_A_LIGHTER Aug 20 03:40:35 Luria: pall mall 100? Aug 20 03:40:35 there ya go Aug 20 03:41:13 ill take whatever Aug 20 04:01:23 wow the technician test is stupid easy. what happened to the circuit diagrams? Aug 20 04:17:01 Anybody know why ping is root only? Aug 20 04:17:52 I get "ping: permission denied. (are you root?)" Aug 20 04:18:00 and it works fine as root Aug 20 04:23:36 you could add it to sudoers Aug 20 04:23:43 or just su ping Aug 20 04:27:57 Thanks, will do. Aug 20 04:38:58 So is there any headset support for the 770? Aug 20 04:48:14 hmm... this is actually one of the larger freenode channels. interesting. Aug 20 04:59:59 else58: ICMP packet creation usually requires root prics, that is why ping requires root. On many systems it is setuid root, or used to be back in the day Aug 20 05:14:46 kreig, strange, I've only seen ping flood restricted... Aug 20 05:22:08 So is there any headset support for the 770? Aug 20 05:32:25 hi all. Aug 20 05:32:26 <_Monkey> hi all. is, like, there a decent flickr mass uploader for the n800 ye Aug 20 05:32:41 * rik peers at _Monkey Aug 20 05:32:44 _Monkey: status Aug 20 05:32:45 <_Monkey> Since Sat Aug 11 20:55:03 2007, there have been 747 modifications and 204 questions. I have been awake for 8 days, 9 hours, 35 minutes, 18 seconds this session, and currently reference 4135 factoids. Addressing is in optional mode. Aug 20 05:32:58 i thought so. i suspect that was one of my comments, too :( Aug 20 05:33:04 i know that the answer is no, so far. Aug 20 05:33:12 _Monkey: forget hi all. Aug 20 05:33:12 <_Monkey> rik, I didn't have anything matching hi all Aug 20 05:33:34 * rik shrugs Aug 20 05:34:28 so, anyone know anything about canola, and the codecs it can use? lovely interface, but doesn't appear to be able to see any of my video files.on the other hand, mplayer, with its sucky interface, shows me my media and plays it. what's the deal with canola? Aug 20 05:37:16 _Monkey, nokia? Aug 20 05:37:17 <_Monkey> nokia is in bed with all the large ones so anything Nokia releases they got to be carefull Aug 20 05:38:08 i dunno who did that but it's so nonsensical to be absurd. Aug 20 05:39:07 absurd = amusing Aug 20 05:41:01 So is there any headset support for the 770? Aug 20 05:44:33 rik: hi all and friends are greetings Aug 20 05:44:36 they're a different module Aug 20 05:44:40 they are? Aug 20 05:44:46 well. that would make sense. Aug 20 05:44:51 what are the modules called? :) Aug 20 05:45:54 Luria: fwiw, I wouldn't call any of the betas "parts of chinook" Aug 20 05:46:06 that presumes you or someone else understands what chinook will be. and even I don't Aug 20 05:46:37 we Aug 20 05:47:00 sparr: I haven't seen *any* testing of dist-upgrade, so I doubt it. Aug 20 05:47:17 well, iirc, rtcomm describes itself that way Aug 20 05:50:03 btw, timely, the password cleartext thing is a known microb bug, yes? Aug 20 05:51:21 _Monkey: literal pidgins Aug 20 05:51:21 <_Monkey> timely: pidgins =are= flying rats in NYC Aug 20 05:52:01 koo koo Aug 20 05:52:27 timely: what are the canola codec packages called? nothing obvious showed up in package manager when searching for canola. Aug 20 05:52:37 damnflyingrats Aug 20 05:54:00 :( Aug 20 05:54:04 oh... case in point: http://rtcomm.garage.maemo.org/ Aug 20 05:54:23 "This software will be officially included in maemo 4.0 Chinook release." Aug 20 05:55:09 pigeon, why are you always lying around dead with your guts hanging out in central park? Aug 20 05:55:50 that wasn't me, i swear, that was just my clone... Aug 20 05:55:53 _Monkey: forget pidgins Aug 20 05:55:53 <_Monkey> timely: I forgot pidgins Aug 20 05:56:02 _Monkey: literal irc Aug 20 05:56:03 <_Monkey> timely: irc =is= only a couple of days old for me Aug 20 05:56:08 _Monkey: forget irc Aug 20 05:56:08 <_Monkey> timely: I forgot irc Aug 20 05:56:26 _Monkey: irc is Internet Relay Chat, http://irchelp.org, if you can see this message, you're using it. Aug 20 05:56:27 <_Monkey> OK, timely. Aug 20 05:56:33 lol Aug 20 05:56:46 _Monkey, nokia? Aug 20 05:56:47 <_Monkey> i heard nokia was in bed with all the large ones so anything Nokia releases they got to be carefull Aug 20 05:57:01 _Monkey forget nokia Aug 20 05:57:01 <_Monkey> timely: I forgot nokia Aug 20 05:57:34 what did that even mean? Aug 20 05:57:44 _Monkey Nokia is a company. It also sponsors maemo using sales of N800s. Buy one. Buy two! Aug 20 05:57:44 <_Monkey> OK, timely. Aug 20 05:58:18 Luria: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2007-07-07.log.html Aug 20 05:58:23 search for the string Aug 20 05:58:45 Charbax said it about 1/6th into the log Aug 20 05:58:55 ok Aug 20 05:59:03 re: what? Aug 20 05:59:15 "what did that ever mean" Aug 20 05:59:22 ah Aug 20 05:59:30 _Monkey learns by passively listening Aug 20 05:59:30 <_Monkey> timely: i'm not following you... Aug 20 05:59:37 indeed Aug 20 05:59:47 95% of all knowledge in the bot should appear in this channel's log Aug 20 06:00:02 you can do private address in /query, which wouldn't appear in the log Aug 20 06:00:41 and you can do =~ s/x/y/ replacement which would mean the log wouldn't show exact matches to the resultant string. But most people don't Aug 20 06:00:48 heck, even I don't most of the time Aug 20 06:03:58 * rik uninstalls canola and reinstalls, not certain that he rebooted after install, before testing. Aug 20 06:04:05 er... timely, about that microb thing? Aug 20 06:04:15 its a known bug? Aug 20 06:05:36 which? Aug 20 06:06:32 fwiw, I'm going to try to file bugs I know about into bugs.maemo so people won't have to ask me if I know about bugs :). Aug 20 06:06:45 oh. go to a site, tap to enter your user name, hit tab on the keyboad to go to the password entry box (not tap) Aug 20 06:07:10 it goes clear Aug 20 06:07:19 vkb or fkb? Aug 20 06:07:34 fkb, and autocomplete Aug 20 06:07:38 for vkb Aug 20 06:07:45 go to gmail.com and try Aug 20 06:08:03 i need to go to work, we haven't shipped microb for 770 and that's all i have handy amt Aug 20 06:08:05 s/mt$/tm/ Aug 20 06:08:10 type in some random name with vkb and hit tab on the vkb Aug 20 06:08:38 ive been trying to find someone to replicate this, but no one listens to me :-( Aug 20 06:08:49 o Aug 20 06:08:53 i'll be at work in ~20mins Aug 20 06:10:54 its really a vkb problem, but if you switch from vkb to fkb, the text is displayed Aug 20 06:11:22 anyway. i'm off, i'll grab a device at work and have you guide me through steps Aug 20 06:11:34 sure Aug 20 06:11:36 btw, does: data:text/html, Aug 20 06:11:40 work as a testcase? Aug 20 06:11:48 it's preferred over something annoying like gmail Aug 20 06:12:05 i just noticed it Aug 20 06:12:53 i assume its because the tap registers in a non hidden field and then never checks again b/c a keypress shifts the input field Aug 20 06:13:04 rather than another tap Aug 20 06:13:23 heh, great Aug 20 06:14:09 so the text is starred in the field, but the password displays on the bottom of the screen :-( Aug 20 06:14:23 under the vkb, of course Aug 20 06:15:39 .8-3, btw Aug 20 06:31:34 So is there any headset support for the 770? Aug 20 06:35:48 Hi Aug 20 06:36:43 its so sad that dist-upgrade doesnt just work Aug 20 06:42:09 luria: ok, i'm at work Aug 20 06:42:17 i'm /slowly/ trying to install microb Aug 20 06:42:25 looks like i get to file bugs as i go Aug 20 06:42:35 each bug takes 10mins minimum to file, this may take a while Aug 20 06:46:13 i understand Aug 20 06:46:44 I find it hard to believe nobody has any idea if headsets work... Aug 20 06:48:37 dont have a 770, and most of the channel is asleep Aug 20 06:49:32 gah. i uninstalled canola to reinstall, because i don't remember rebooting. now it won't reinstall. about 3/4 of the way in it stop with "cannot install canola" Aug 20 06:53:45 i like ukmp Aug 20 06:53:53 Luria: I have been asking for most of the day Aug 20 06:54:12 i have a 770 Aug 20 06:54:15 and i have no idea if headsets work Aug 20 06:54:42 by which i assume you mean bluetooth headsets Aug 20 06:54:42 rik: install from a console Aug 20 06:54:42 I have been asking since 11 at the least Aug 20 06:54:49 or if there is a wired alternative Aug 20 06:54:58 I don't really care, I just need a headset for gizmo Aug 20 06:55:33 BigMac: afaik, at least no bt headset support Aug 20 06:56:18 kulve: But ebay has headsets for the 770 supposedly Aug 20 06:56:57 ok Aug 20 06:57:33 so I am not sure which to go by Aug 20 07:01:51 timeless, im about to head off to sleep... you see what i was talking about? Aug 20 07:03:53 BigMac: have you found any article/blog/whatever with google saying that the bt headset works? Aug 20 07:06:04 Nope, not of the few I have seen Aug 20 07:20:59 ah, how you do manage glib and deeply insightful at the same time. Aug 20 07:27:57 luria: sorry, got stuck w/ a more pressing problem Aug 20 07:28:44 np Aug 20 07:30:08 bah. Aug 20 07:30:08 so my issue is: Aug 20 07:30:08 chage: can't open shadow password fileStopped: `/usr/bin/chage -M 99999 avahi' returned error code 1. Exiting. Aug 20 07:30:58 that's while installing avahi as part of canola. Aug 20 07:30:58 not sure what could cause it though. i'm too much of a newbie. Aug 20 08:07:52 good morning Aug 20 08:12:48 mn #dreamhost yet another pastebin?? Aug 20 08:32:54 Hi to all Aug 20 08:34:16 hi maemo Aug 20 08:34:39 Description: MicroB engine for OSSO browser Aug 20 08:34:39 This package depends on all the packages necessary to install the MicroB engine. Aug 20 08:34:39 . Aug 20 08:34:39 Installing this package should change the default engine from Opera to MicroB. Aug 20 08:34:40 You can change between engines by selecting another engine from the Set Engine Aug 20 08:34:40 menu in the application menu and restarting the browser. The menu does not Aug 20 08:34:41 indicate the current engine. Load about: in the browser to determine your Aug 20 08:34:43 current engine. Aug 20 08:34:47 how bad does that sound? Aug 20 08:35:07 good morning Aug 20 08:38:52 Description: MicroB engine for OSSO browser Aug 20 08:38:52 This package depends on all the packages necessary to install the MicroB Aug 20 08:38:52 engine- Based on the Mozilla Gecko rendering engine which will be part of Aug 20 08:38:52 Firefox 3. Aug 20 08:38:52 . Aug 20 08:38:52 Installing this package should change the default engine from Opera to MicroB. Aug 20 08:38:52 You can change between engines by selecting another engine from the Set Engine Aug 20 08:38:52 menu in the application menu and restarting the browser. The menu does not Aug 20 08:38:56 indicate the current engine. Load about: in the browser to determine your Aug 20 08:38:56 current engine. Aug 20 08:39:02 * timeless looks for someone to wordsmith or nitpick or something Aug 20 08:42:36 :P not me ;P Aug 20 08:42:45 Description: MicroB engine for OSSO browser Aug 20 08:42:46 This package depends on all the packages necessary to install the MicroB Aug 20 08:42:46 engine. MicroB is based on the Mozilla Gecko rendering engine which will be Aug 20 08:42:47 part of Firefox 3. Aug 20 08:42:47 . Aug 20 08:42:47 Installing this package should change the default engine from Opera to MicroB. Aug 20 08:42:49 You can change between engines by selecting another engine from the Set Engine Aug 20 08:42:50 menu in the application menu and restarting the browser. The menu does not Aug 20 08:42:52 indicate the current engine. Load about: in the browser to determine your Aug 20 08:42:57 current engine. Aug 20 08:42:58 is what i've settled on Aug 20 08:43:02 btw I solved my browser not working issue by removing the .browser file Aug 20 08:43:19 people w// objections should speak now, or hold their peace for at least one release Aug 20 08:43:24 keesj: interesting Aug 20 08:46:31 one I saw it worked I tried to find out what was wrong with the .browser file. the problem is that I have lost it by now :( , I think there where lines like browser=opera and some storage location /media/mmc2 . I do have a codedump + log message but I guess thats of no use :( Aug 20 08:47:24 coredump? Aug 20 08:47:32 theoretically i can get someone to investigate those Aug 20 08:47:50 however, we're not spending any time on opera Aug 20 08:48:03 so if it was an opera related crash, i mostly have deaf ears available Aug 20 08:48:05 sorry :) Aug 20 08:48:16 I don't think I was using opera, at least I was not trying :p Aug 20 08:48:57 heh Aug 20 08:49:21 well, provide a url and i'll find someone to look. log + coredump is best if you have Aug 20 08:49:40 here http://www.keesj.dds.nl/core-dumps/ Aug 20 08:50:47 message shared.. Aug 20 08:50:48 * timeless sighs Aug 20 08:50:49 2. configure and enable wifi access to the internet Aug 20 08:50:50 that step isn't as easy to do as it was to write into my bug report Aug 20 08:55:51 hm. i wonder why avahi is failing to install Aug 20 09:04:35 timeless: I managed to "recover" the .browser file. now when I try to reproducs the bug the .browser file gets overridden any tips to prevent that? Aug 20 09:06:15 ok if I boot and copy the .browser file over the existing and start my browser I get the internal error. Appication 'Web' closed Aug 20 09:06:43 this is my file when it fails , perhaps something is running out ot sync? http://www.keesj.dds.nl/core-dumps/bowser_fails Aug 20 09:07:44 well, w/ engine=opera, i'd *assume* that it's loading opera Aug 20 09:07:51 strace -f would tell Aug 20 09:12:41 any I am very happy it works! and having a good open-source browser in the embeded world was really a missing link! Aug 20 09:12:58 oh, detail Aug 20 09:13:05 when the browser quits, it overwrites .browser Aug 20 09:13:14 so *never* try to change the file while it's running :) Aug 20 09:17:31 can't touch this la la la la. the ajax drag-drop demo page crashes on me :p Aug 20 09:18:26 someone complained about that Aug 20 09:18:36 lemme file my bug about application manager sucking first Aug 20 09:18:54 oh, doh Aug 20 09:18:58 no wonder this didn't work Aug 20 09:19:14 * timeless was trying to install on 3.2007 Aug 20 09:19:16 * timeless already has microb on 3.2007 Aug 20 09:24:55 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1863 in case people were curious Aug 20 09:52:13 fwiw, the first stack you gave was a crash in opera **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Aug 20 11:33:59 2007 Aug 20 11:53:55 hi Aug 20 12:00:14 hmm Aug 20 12:00:21 I just got an idea Aug 20 12:00:26 not sure if it's silly Aug 20 12:00:50 but, it would be handy if, while I was on my PC and I came across something I wanted to view on my tablet, if I could do a "send link to tablet" or something Aug 20 12:01:05 I guess I could just IM it to myself Aug 20 12:11:16 you could use google bookmarks :) Aug 20 12:11:28 or you could use any web2.0 bookmark sharing service Aug 20 12:13:50 yeah, but like, it would be nice if I could just click a button or such and have it appear on the tablet's clipboard without having to do anything Aug 20 12:15:30 personally i like having the ability to add "reformat my computer" buttons to my clipboard Aug 20 12:15:42 so i can accidentally paste the command to do that Aug 20 12:15:59 Grumble Aug 20 12:16:03 i mean, you're free to implement it, but it's a fairly bad idea Aug 20 12:16:10 did you all just receive a 'You have been unsubscribed from the maemo-users mailing list' as well ? Aug 20 12:16:18 heh Aug 20 12:16:25 i wasn't subscribed Aug 20 12:16:31 :) Aug 20 12:16:38 do i have to be subscribed to get an unsubscribed message? Aug 20 12:16:41 i was,and just received one of those. Aug 20 12:17:35 Tu13es: ssh myn800 dbus-send the-message-mentioned-in-maemo-list-to-open-link-in-browser Aug 20 12:18:24 Re: Launching browser from Xterm Aug 20 12:25:36 morning/hi Aug 20 12:25:42 Lo, hypathetical quesion! :D I just bought the E65 and will buy the N800 soon (I had a change of heart)... Aug 20 12:26:09 Could I get the E65 to connect to 3G, the N800 gets that via BT... and the N800 broadcasts it via WiFi Aug 20 12:26:23 i.e. a wi-fi access point or simply just ad-hoc Aug 20 12:27:20 Cyorxamp: you would need to compile a kernel with nat support, but otherwise I think it shouldn't be a problem.. Aug 20 12:27:24 with ad-hoc Aug 20 12:27:36 easier said than done :D Aug 20 12:27:46 I like the sound of it tho, a portable wifi router :D Aug 20 12:28:29 I'm going to put it down to a 'No' for now - I'm not exactly a linux kernel expert Aug 20 12:30:30 I'm sure somebody can compile it for you. It's not a big deal though. I think there's a wiki page in maemo.org about compiling the kernel Aug 20 12:32:06 No it sounds like a dreadful 'adventure' that will only end in tears Aug 20 12:33:58 At the least the first part isn't a problem right? The N800 getting the internet over BT from the 3G connected E65 Aug 20 12:34:21 yes Aug 20 12:34:27 at least generally speaking Aug 20 12:34:31 yes it is a problem? Aug 20 12:34:35 my n800 and 770 get access from my e61i Aug 20 12:34:40 "yes it isn't a problem" Aug 20 12:34:44 aha :D Aug 20 12:35:01 "no, it isn't a problem" Aug 20 12:35:09 Cool, I've worked out a deal with O2 that I get unlimited 3G access for £8.51 a month Aug 20 12:35:15 ask a poorly worded question, get dozens of equivalently poorly worded answers :) Aug 20 12:35:20 So the N800 can almost constantly be online on the go Aug 20 12:35:47 Q: 'isn't a problem' A: No Aug 20 12:35:50 Don't insult me Aug 20 12:36:15 err, sorry, yeah, "no" was the more correct answer Aug 20 12:36:31 hi, where kan I find the hardware specs in the maemo wiki? IIRC they have been there before the new site came Aug 20 12:36:43 new site? Aug 20 12:36:52 new maemo.org design Aug 20 12:37:10 * Cyorxamp gives timeless a chocolate muffin Aug 20 12:37:27 :-) Aug 20 12:37:34 http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Aug 20 12:37:44 jonek:try clicking the search link to the left of wiki Aug 20 12:38:15 http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9561669149.html Aug 20 12:38:33 ok another question, Nokia has said that for stereo bluetooth headsets to work... the device needs to support the AD-2P profile but the E65 / N800 doesn't - any ideas on if the N800 ever will, is this another kernel level thing? Aug 20 12:38:33 am i the only one who gets what looks ilke a 404 there? :() Aug 20 12:40:06 something claims kaju cna do that?? Aug 20 12:40:51 https://www.guardiani.us/projects/kagu/wiki Aug 20 12:40:51 kagu can do that Aug 20 12:41:15 note that "kaju" is some misspelling i copied from the web :) Aug 20 12:41:18 "cna" is my own Aug 20 12:42:12 "128 MiniSD with extender included in sales package" - i.e. the MiniSD needs an adapter to work, but microSD, SD, and MMC doesn't ? Aug 20 12:42:53 micro needs 2 adapters :) Aug 20 12:43:05 it comes w/ a minisd card and a mini=>sd adapter Aug 20 12:43:20 if you have a micro thing, you need either micro=>mini + included mini=>sd Aug 20 12:43:24 or a micro->sd Aug 20 12:43:28 and yes, i've used both Aug 20 12:43:32 lol Aug 20 12:43:45 the E65 is micro only - so I'm thinking of getting a big microSD card for both Aug 20 12:43:57 the last 4 i got were 2g micros Aug 20 12:44:00 i.e. for storing data like music/videos Aug 20 12:44:15 there's no reason to get something other than micro in my book Aug 20 12:44:19 if I wanted the OS on the other card slot - what kind of card is best / size Aug 20 12:44:24 well, ok, there's 1 Aug 20 12:44:25 Cyorxamp: you can also browse stuff from your phone over bt Aug 20 12:44:39 if you want a 1g rsmmc for compat between 770+n800 Aug 20 12:44:40 and over upnp at home.. Aug 20 12:44:45 but otherwise, yeah, micro Aug 20 12:44:46 kulve - nah this is if I don't want to take the N800 but want access to the music I'd platy on the N800 Aug 20 12:45:21 timeless: So micro for both the removable one I can play with... and also for the 'always-in' operating system installed on it card Aug 20 12:46:04 unless there's some huge price difference Aug 20 12:46:10 and when i've priced it, they've all been the same Aug 20 12:46:22 ok what size to you recommend for the latter? given the software can't be that big in size Aug 20 12:46:23 generally i switch internal/external/phone interchangably Aug 20 12:46:45 unless its massive DOOM WAD files :D Aug 20 12:46:45 i bought 2gs they were tolerbaly priced and i dind't mind so much having them destroyed Aug 20 12:46:51 i wouldn't buy bigger than 2g though Aug 20 12:46:54 ok Aug 20 12:47:11 note: i'm a browser dev, i don't have any use for bigger Aug 20 12:47:15 I'll probably buy a couple of 2gb ones then with micro to SD adapters Aug 20 12:47:23 i don't listen to music, i don't collect videos, ... Aug 20 12:47:24 save the fuss of two adapters Aug 20 12:47:36 4g cards are officially supported too, right? Aug 20 12:47:46 i believe so, yes Aug 20 12:47:50 but i think the price point isn't there Aug 20 12:47:54 and you wouldn't like losing it Aug 20 12:47:54 "Supports memory cards up to 8GB. SD cards over 2GB must be SDHC compatible." Aug 20 12:48:17 non-sdhc 4gig cards (they exist) also work, i have one Aug 20 12:48:20 Is it easy to move the IT OS to the microSD card? Aug 20 12:48:28 if 4g has a better price point and you can figure out the standards, well.... Aug 20 12:48:30 I take it all the onboard memory would be solely used as RAM Aug 20 12:48:34 Cyorxamp: pretty easy Aug 20 12:48:43 ram is ram in this device Aug 20 12:48:44 a howto / guide I take it? Aug 20 12:48:50 it's not some confused palm device :) Aug 20 12:48:52 ram and flash space are different Aug 20 12:49:03 it just confuses users by calling everything "memory" Aug 20 12:49:26 Cyorxamp: yes there are wikis, but don't do it because of getting more RAM ;) Aug 20 12:49:48 so the 128mb DDR RAM is only used as swappable memory - never for storage of files Aug 20 12:49:49 you can enable swap on the mmc card.. Aug 20 12:49:56 keep in mind that if your os isn't on flash and you remove the card, bad things would happen :) Aug 20 12:49:58 so I don't gain anything having it on the SD? Aug 20 12:50:05 no Aug 20 12:50:14 in that sense.. Aug 20 12:50:23 I did it to have a development rootfs on mmc Aug 20 12:50:32 well, flash is formatted jffs2 which has "interesting" performance characteristics Aug 20 12:50:40 See I'm uses to my zaurus :D when the OS is on the SD - I can use what was being used onboard as extra RAM Aug 20 12:50:48 and the mmcs have different speed and can use a different fs Aug 20 12:50:59 yeah, rootfs on sdhc card is faster than in the flash Aug 20 12:51:03 Anyone care to bottom line this? I'm getting quite confused Aug 20 12:51:11 ok Aug 20 12:51:19 hazard: remove the os mmc and your device panics Aug 20 12:51:23 :P thanx Aug 20 12:51:34 benefits: card is faster and can be ext2 or something instead of jffs2 Aug 20 12:51:49 con: nokia doesn't support it Aug 20 12:51:54 n800: 256M flash storage, 128M ram, 2 sd slots for memory cards (storage) Aug 20 12:52:01 kulve: I know that Aug 20 12:52:31 what's there to bottom line then :) Aug 20 12:52:32 So the only benefit is a choice in filesystem, I don't gain any extra performance excecpt maybe the card will be faster Aug 20 12:52:39 yup Aug 20 12:52:59 there are two independent speedups Aug 20 12:53:00 ok question then... if the 256mb FLASH is non-writable for the OS in case of hard-reset Aug 20 12:53:05 And the 128mb is RAM only Aug 20 12:53:05 one is from not playing w/ jffs2 Aug 20 12:53:11 Where are settings stored? Aug 20 12:53:14 i.e. /home Aug 20 12:53:16 the other is that flash is slower than whatever sd Aug 20 12:53:16 and with bootmenu you can have a "backup" system that you can boot into if you brake the other one Aug 20 12:53:30 :( you've both talking Aug 20 12:53:55 the internal flash is generally not "readonly" Aug 20 12:54:09 there's a small section which is "hard" to rewrite Aug 20 12:54:11 timeless: so why can't it be used as extra ram? Aug 20 12:54:13 but the rest of it is mutable Aug 20 12:54:23 well, it isn't ram Aug 20 12:54:28 and it's slower than your mmc Aug 20 12:54:44 so if you want swap, it'd be better to use the sd/mmc Aug 20 12:54:58 and it isn't ram, so it isn't addressable as ram Aug 20 12:54:59 Cyorxamp: flash and ram are different chips, you can't choose what yo use them for.. Aug 20 12:55:14 so if I put the OS on the 2gb microSD, and use the 128mb DDR RAM - the 256mb basically gets used for nothing? Aug 20 12:55:26 yep Aug 20 12:55:35 it's slower than the free space on your 2g microsd Aug 20 12:55:36 But is handy in case of hard-reset? Aug 20 12:55:41 ye[p Aug 20 12:55:50 well, not hard reset Aug 20 12:55:53 Right, tis a bit different to a zaurus then Aug 20 12:56:00 but say in case you fry your sd :) Aug 20 12:56:00 same as on your PC. If you boot your Linux/Windows from an MMC card, nobody uses your harddrive.. Aug 20 12:56:10 there is no hardreset Aug 20 12:56:15 except the gremlins Aug 20 12:56:36 (they're always at the hard drive) Aug 20 12:56:38 you can only install (called "flashing") the whole OS back there.. Overwriting everything.. Aug 20 12:56:38 personally i prefer geckos and dragons to gremlins Aug 20 12:56:52 timeless: surely the 256mb is mountable when booted from the microSD Aug 20 12:56:59 sure Aug 20 12:57:03 or wouldn't you advice using it as storage? Aug 20 12:57:06 but there's little point Aug 20 12:57:15 you have 8x the storage in the sd card Aug 20 12:57:20 and it's faster Aug 20 12:57:28 ok, what about partitioning the microSD - good/bad? Aug 20 12:57:28 one doesn't intentionally write to slow storage Aug 20 12:57:37 * timeless doesn't believe in partitioning Aug 20 12:57:45 do-able tho? Aug 20 12:57:54 system and personal data seperate Aug 20 12:57:58 it's not like you're using zfs and can get spiffy / relatively free wins for it Aug 20 12:58:09 I partioned my mmc to get the developer rootfs and a normal mmc partition for music Aug 20 12:58:15 if you drop the card in acid, does the partition help? Aug 20 12:58:21 * timeless shrugs Aug 20 12:58:25 you can do it Aug 20 12:58:25 mmc/sd partitions are handy if you want different filesystems Aug 20 12:58:40 i wouldn't do it for e.g. system v. swap Aug 20 12:59:05 i don't believe in swap partitions, use swap files if necessary Aug 20 12:59:07 disq so say a 800mb ext2/3 and a 1.2gb FAT32? Aug 20 12:59:16 yeah Aug 20 12:59:24 windows will pick up on the latter only? Aug 20 12:59:25 the OS takes 130M Aug 20 12:59:30 (on my current n800) Aug 20 12:59:33 else if in linux just mount /dev/sda2 Aug 20 13:00:08 that right disq? windows and the linux intepretation Aug 20 13:00:11 correct. other decices will pick up fat32 too, but i think if you make fat32 the first partition it's better? not sure about this Aug 20 13:00:19 ah right Aug 20 13:00:19 sounds right Aug 20 13:00:30 windows can be fussy, wanting _all_ the card to be one partition Aug 20 13:00:30 all the partitioned mmc guides i saw suggest the first partition to be FAT Aug 20 13:00:47 most cameras etc work with it too Aug 20 13:00:55 cool Aug 20 13:01:19 does anyone have a linky to one of these guides? Aug 20 13:01:26 i.e. partitioning plus moving the OS Aug 20 13:01:32 maemo.org Aug 20 13:01:33 <_Monkey> i guess maemo.org is ok here, but garage.maemo.org is down (and has been down for several hours) Aug 20 13:01:40 ITT Aug 20 13:01:47 kulve: tis a big site :P Aug 20 13:01:47 google :) Aug 20 13:01:49 _Monkey: ITT Aug 20 13:01:50 ITT forums Aug 20 13:01:51 <_Monkey> rumour has it ITT is http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums Aug 20 13:01:51 thats bigger Aug 20 13:01:52 <_Monkey> ITT forums is probably http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums Aug 20 13:02:05 basically... No Aug 20 13:02:18 Cyorxamp: google: "site:maemo.org rootfs mmc" Aug 20 13:02:45 you want to move the rootfs to mmc ? Aug 20 13:02:48 is that really a good idea ? Aug 20 13:02:57 Phil770_: depends what you want Aug 20 13:02:57 lol Aug 20 13:03:08 Cyorxamp: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/howto_easily_boot_from_mmc_card/ Aug 20 13:03:09 to copy a current system over to mmc that's a good way to do it Aug 20 13:03:09 true... Aug 20 13:03:15 I'm told its quicker to run off MMC/SD Aug 20 13:03:22 oh, really ? Aug 20 13:03:35 Cyorxamp: helps on the boot time. I think in normal use the difference isn't big Aug 20 13:03:40 ok, so, garage.maemo is down again? Aug 20 13:03:57 stupid question, if i install a mmcplus kernel, can i multiboot to it2006 and 2007he with it? Aug 20 13:03:59 timeless: seems so.. Aug 20 13:04:24 pupnik_: if they have the same kernel and initfs then yes Aug 20 13:04:29 but I'm not sure if they have.. Aug 20 13:04:35 _monkey forget maemo.org Aug 20 13:04:37 <_Monkey> timeless: I forgot maemo.org Aug 20 13:04:40 I think the HE has modified initfs.. Aug 20 13:04:50 _monkey maemo.org is Aug 20 13:04:50 <_Monkey> OK, timeless. Aug 20 13:04:55 _Monkey: forget kulve Aug 20 13:04:56 <_Monkey> kulve: I forgot kulve Aug 20 13:05:07 kulve? Aug 20 13:05:11 \o/ Aug 20 13:05:27 why'd you do that? Aug 20 13:05:30 Another question :D The zaurus came with a nice linux OS - then people didn't like it and made a boat load of branches off it and even total reworks Aug 20 13:05:46 Since you lot are the community and support the official Aug 20 13:05:51 timeless: because it was throwing .. stuff .. at me.. Aug 20 13:05:53 Will there be other distro's ? Aug 20 13:06:02 kulve is Aug 20 13:06:14 kulve: but it'll learn the next thing someone says about you Aug 20 13:06:28 _monkey: kulve is helpful Aug 20 13:06:29 <_Monkey> ...but kulve is ... Aug 20 13:06:33 ;) Aug 20 13:06:45 if you want it to shut up, that's how Aug 20 13:06:49 kulve? Aug 20 13:07:07 nice - Cyorxamp yes, openrox and kde are being experimented with Aug 20 13:07:17 kulve: If you look at example test8, it does appear that each task runs to completion, then the next one with the highest priority is run Aug 20 13:07:30 KDE just a desktop enviro tho Aug 20 13:07:35 althouth 'distro' doesn't really apply Aug 20 13:07:46 lardman: I can run dsp src & dsp sinks at the same time Aug 20 13:07:49 so just different interfaces for same OS? Aug 20 13:08:08 kulve: Yes, because they are probably fifo ordered Aug 20 13:08:25 lardman: and there is some audio prosessing tasks too running, so there are usually several tasks running at the same time ("simultaneously") Aug 20 13:08:48 kulve: Do your tasks ever block and wait for something ? Aug 20 13:08:51 pupnik_ ? Aug 20 13:08:52 <_Monkey> i guess pupnik_ is right, you can use a proxy to get rid of the error messages Aug 20 13:09:06 _monkey forget pupnik_ Aug 20 13:09:06 <_Monkey> timeless: I forgot pupnik_ Aug 20 13:09:08 Cyorxamp: i think they come as a full rootfs Aug 20 13:09:16 _monkey pupnik_ is Aug 20 13:09:18 <_Monkey> OK, timeless. Aug 20 13:09:46 ok ... why would anyone want to! ? Aug 20 13:09:47 _monkey pupnik is Aug 20 13:09:49 <_Monkey> ...but pupnik is here... Aug 20 13:10:05 _Monkey forget pupnik Aug 20 13:10:06 <_Monkey> pupnik: I forgot pupnik Aug 20 13:10:14 _Monkey pupnik is Aug 20 13:10:16 <_Monkey> OK, pupnik. Aug 20 13:10:26 Cyorxamp: to experiment and play Aug 20 13:10:53 is maemo true debian, i.e 'apt-get' fun etc... ? Aug 20 13:11:03 yes Aug 20 13:11:09 apt-get breakworld Aug 20 13:11:16 do you see maemo becoming more than just for Nokias purposes Aug 20 13:11:18 it uses apt, it's not official debian though Aug 20 13:11:31 yes new devices are coming based off maemo Aug 20 13:11:44 non-nokia!? :D Aug 20 13:11:45 lardman: no. It just asks for next buffer and then the function is exited Aug 20 13:11:59 yes, 'intel MID' Aug 20 13:12:10 and it works for 30-90 secs before jamming.. Aug 20 13:12:32 kulve: When it asks for the next buffer and stops processing, a mailbox request is passed to ARM, then once filled back to the DSP to add to the queue Aug 20 13:12:40 ok if nokia N800 comes with 'Internet Tablet 2007' - if the N800 came as a blank slate, what would you put on it? 'Maemo' ? Aug 20 13:12:57 kulve: At that point, the next task in the queue will be handled, rather than the one that just made the request Aug 20 13:12:58 i.e. can they be seen as two different OS's? i.e. one that is proprietary and one that is not Aug 20 13:13:11 Cyorxamp: not really Aug 20 13:13:12 pupnik: No, the MID devices aren't using Maemo, they're based on Red Flag Linux. They are, however, using the Hildon Desktop (the most visible part of Maemo) Aug 20 13:13:22 Jaffa: ok thanks for the correction Aug 20 13:13:35 kulve: the IT comes with a multitude of things that are not in the spirit of debian or GNU/Linux Aug 20 13:13:50 true Aug 20 13:14:02 but you need some closed source stuff to get it running.. :/ Aug 20 13:14:09 maemo is just a community Aug 20 13:14:17 mp3 ability, google talk, skype, etc... Aug 20 13:14:27 lardman: yes Aug 20 13:14:30 So theres no alternative 'Free' OS? Aug 20 13:14:42 Cyorxamp: hmm.. Aug 20 13:14:50 like IT is the RedHat and Maemo is the Fedora Aug 20 13:15:15 I think you can't get e.g. wlan working without the closed source binary driver Aug 20 13:15:51 So theres a good chance that just like the original Zaurus 'ROM' got abandoned when Sharp moved on - this will be too Aug 20 13:15:54 kulve: I'm looking at how to get a vorbis callback for more file data to be able to return immediately, as the code expects Aug 20 13:16:29 Cyorxamp: Nokia do actually give updates, which is a lot more than Sharp did Aug 20 13:16:37 Cyorxamp: there are installable images of GPE, Poky and Angstrom which are "alternative" free OSes. There are varying degrees of success here as no-one's felt the need to work around some of the still-closed bits. Aug 20 13:16:51 Cyorxamp: they are even going to publish new hacker update for 770.. Aug 20 13:17:09 Well OpenZaurus (basically Angstom) is what I use on my zaurus now Aug 20 13:17:26 since the original Sharp OS is abandoned Aug 20 13:18:13 Nokia seems intent on keeping a strong grip then given the closed bits Aug 20 13:18:35 Of course, Nokia could pull the plug on future updates or go bust (!) - then the community will have an incentive to produce a fully open OS. Currently, there's no real desire, except on the fringes, so no effort. Aug 20 13:18:40 Cyorxamp: If Sharp had released a more modern kernel (and updates, etc.), then the OS development may not have proceeded so fast Aug 20 13:19:02 Cyorxamp: I don't think it's strategic. It's just inertia. Most of Nokia management still don't "get" OSS. Aug 20 13:19:03 Seems convenient, we get a Linux PDA that _actually_ works and is moden.... in return! Nokia get a community to do the development for free for them Aug 20 13:19:35 * pupnik points to his 'actually working' 770 Aug 20 13:20:09 something just smells a bit off Aug 20 13:20:14 lardman and jaffa said it best Aug 20 13:20:35 kulve: Semaphores may be the answer to my problems Aug 20 13:20:42 Nokia currently aren't getting any development done for free either (one of the problems, TBH) Aug 20 13:20:43 I've been burned twice now... one by HP for dropping the Jornada range when I bought their latest PDA/Phone... and then Sharp for ditching things and going back to Japan Aug 20 13:21:03 Cyorxamp: Which model do you have? Aug 20 13:21:05 I doub't nokia paid for (example) Pidgin to be ported Aug 20 13:21:10 lardman: sounds like a deadlock ;) Aug 20 13:21:13 buying a product doesn't mean 'free upgrades for life' Aug 20 13:21:18 lardman: Jornada was a 928, Zaurus is a SL-5500 Aug 20 13:21:26 kulve: I'll have to be careful :) Aug 20 13:21:30 Cyorxamp: no, but neither did Ubuntu or Microsoft (other OSes I use Pidgin), so I don't see the point. Aug 20 13:21:40 Cyorxamp: Ah, so an old one then. I have one of those too Aug 20 13:22:26 The 770/N800 *are* the most open pocketable Linux devices money can buy. Nokia aren't showing any signs of taking their ball away entirely, although opening up the OS2007on770 development so more people can get involved would be handy. Aug 20 13:22:32 kulve: Take a look at this: http://www.des.udc.es/~escudero/docencia/str/TSK_Scheduling.pdf Aug 20 13:22:32 Ok, last thing on this point... A bit of a hands up jobby - Who thinks Nokia will continue there 'Linux' efforts enough to start replacing what would normally be symbian ? Aug 20 13:22:58 It will take some considerable time for that to ever happen Aug 20 13:23:10 what I said u mean? Aug 20 13:23:15 yes Aug 20 13:23:16 And such disparate parts of the business... Aug 20 13:23:32 They have a large investment (people, time, money - part ownership) in Symbian Aug 20 13:23:33 I wouldn't bet on it in the next 3 years (i.e. short term). Longer term... dunno. Aug 20 13:23:47 lardman: looks interesting. I'll need to read that later, now I'm off Aug 20 13:23:55 kulve: Ok, one thing to add Aug 20 13:24:03 yes Aug 20 13:24:06 kulve: tsk_yield() may implement time slicing Aug 20 13:24:08 My bet is on the N800 going to the dump in years to come Aug 20 13:24:20 But unfortunately its the best going at the moment Aug 20 13:24:21 kulve: from the kernel side, so I may be wrong about tasks running to completion Aug 20 13:25:06 Cyorxamp: years? perhaps. But years is a long time in IT ;) Aug 20 13:25:08 lardman: ok, that may help with the tremor case.. Maybe I need to check that tremor stuff too, since my speex isn't making progress now.. Aug 20 13:25:24 kulve: let me know what issues you're having later on Aug 20 13:25:32 ok another question!! :P , Nokia has said that for stereo bluetooth headsets to work... the device needs to support the AD-2P profile but the E65 / N800 doesn't - any ideas on if the N800 ever will, is this another kernel level thing? Aug 20 13:25:34 with tremor? Aug 20 13:25:38 lardman: or with speex? Aug 20 13:25:38 with Speex Aug 20 13:25:52 I posted them to dspgw mailing list.. Aug 20 13:26:10 hmm, that list is full of spam, I'll see if I can find your post Aug 20 13:26:31 or perhaps I'm thinking of the Ti Linux tools list...? Aug 20 13:26:34 well, I haven't received yet anything from there but my posts and replies to it.. Aug 20 13:26:36 Cyorxamp: there is third party support for A2DP (i.e. Bluetooth stereo headphones), but it is more CPU intensive as it doesn't use the DSP. There is a pretty GUI for it though. Aug 20 13:26:41 _Monkey: tell Cyorxamp about Kagu Aug 20 13:26:59 the media player? Aug 20 13:27:01 <_Monkey> the media player is sooo shit! Aug 20 13:27:13 _Monkey: forget the media player Aug 20 13:27:14 <_Monkey> Jaffa: I forgot media player Aug 20 13:27:16 I'm planning on looking at a2dp on the DSP - I just bought a headset for testing Aug 20 13:27:22 lardman: cool Aug 20 13:27:27 how very iPhone Aug 20 13:27:44 I've got headphones too. Not tried them yet as they were delivered to my office and I'm on holiday for a week :-/ Aug 20 13:27:47 Jaffa: But it will be ARM->DSP->ARM as I don't know how to access the BT chip from the DSP side Aug 20 13:28:01 lardman: if it's even possible to... Aug 20 13:28:12 Jaffa: I found the tempo of the music varied quite alot, sounds pretty rubbish Aug 20 13:28:12 so eventually it'll get supported? Aug 20 13:28:24 Jaffa: I hope it's bg load that caused that Aug 20 13:28:33 I rang Nokia and they said the E65 may get an update in time to support A2DP Aug 20 13:28:35 Cyorxamp: It's on Nokia's ToDo list Aug 20 13:28:40 but he couldn't comment on the N800 Aug 20 13:28:42 * Jaffa can use them with his phone too, though Aug 20 13:28:44 ok Aug 20 13:29:05 Cyorxamp: no, not "eventually". It works now. It's also on Nokia's roadmap for proper support. Aug 20 13:29:33 umm, the headset for the N800 - its a mic/speaker yeah for voip? does it have a button for accept/reject calls? Aug 20 13:29:43 * Jaffa doesn't moan that XP can't do SSH natively: I just get puTTY Aug 20 13:30:38 Cyorxamp: yes Aug 20 13:31:03 but can't be used on a normal nokia as its a normal 3 channel jack 3.5mm mic/speak jack? Aug 20 13:31:18 correct Aug 20 13:31:24 aghahG! :D Aug 20 13:31:37 I've seen converters but I don't know if they carry the mic or not Aug 20 13:31:39 Unusual to moan that the headset connector is too standard ;-) Aug 20 13:31:48 lol Aug 20 13:32:10 POP port > 3.5mm - if it carried the mic i'd be cool Aug 20 13:33:54 http://www.datakits.co.uk/store/35mm-stereo-audio-adapter-microphone-nokia-6230i-6680-n80-n70-p-952.html Aug 20 13:33:57 yay :D Aug 20 13:34:18 a dongle that converts POP to 3.5mm but adds a mic and a button on the dongle Aug 20 13:46:38 "What's the problem with the way a pirate speaks? - Arrrrticulation!" Aug 20 13:47:46 So what's the status of usb host mode for the n800. Any links? Aug 20 13:50:00 Bought :D Aug 20 13:50:17 Everyone have a party on me, I've bought one - I'll get it Wednesday Aug 20 13:50:25 £250 Aug 20 13:50:27 congrats! Aug 20 13:50:59 :) Aug 20 13:51:08 Hopefully the nitty gritty techy geeky fun stuff won't be that dissimilar from the Zaurus Aug 20 13:51:09 hey sully, any luck with python/pygame/kagu? Aug 20 13:51:47 Haven't given it a try unfortunately, any feedback from the forums? Aug 20 13:52:14 all positive, your prob seems to be unique so far Aug 20 13:52:21 haha, that figures! Aug 20 13:52:42 well to be honest I don't have much use for it anyways, the 2GB is too limiting for music Aug 20 13:53:02 I just wanted to show off with it :o Aug 20 13:53:09 :/ Aug 20 13:53:22 People lust my 770. Aug 20 13:54:09 And the neat thing is, I've arranged with O2 (my mobile phone people) to go on contract with a Nokia E65 and the tarrif (for only £8.51) includes unlimited 3G data :P Aug 20 13:54:34 Cyorxamp: nice. Aug 20 13:54:35 Shame the N800 can't directly be 3G Aug 20 13:54:37 that's sexy Aug 20 13:54:53 * Jaffa likes his N800 not being his phone, means my W850i can go everywhere with me. Aug 20 13:55:02 cyorxamp: imagine you're a sprint customer Aug 20 13:55:05 Do you suppose the N800 will update to WiMax when it becomes popular? Aug 20 13:55:14 you pay an extra $100 for an n800 that's 3g Aug 20 13:55:24 and doesn't work on your wimax network Aug 20 13:55:32 they'll release a wimax version (i'm guessing early 2008) Aug 20 13:55:46 better to buy a cheap 3g phone w/ bluetooth Aug 20 13:55:53 Hang on Hang on! Aug 20 13:55:59 Theres other editions of the N800 ? Aug 20 13:56:03 Ones with 3G built in!?! Aug 20 13:56:12 there aren't Aug 20 13:56:22 but i'm trying to explain why including 3g doesn't make sense Aug 20 13:56:31 it adds cost, increases regulatory pains Aug 20 13:56:36 and then doesn't work on the network you have Aug 20 13:56:47 > you pay an extra $100 for an n800 that's 3g Aug 20 13:56:56 *you would Aug 20 13:57:28 hmm ok Aug 20 13:57:40 there was an "imagine" line in there somewhere Aug 20 13:57:51 * pupnik writes a self-help book "learning to live with on-screen buttons" Aug 20 13:57:52 Well when BT finishes the 21CN in the UK and WiMax is everywhere - it'll become the defacto over 3G for wireless national data access Aug 20 13:58:25 Along with the death of the phone systems and going to all IP based Aug 20 13:58:42 anyway, i really can't find a decent sprint announcement Aug 20 13:58:44 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8069179684.html Aug 20 13:58:46 perhaps Aug 20 13:59:01 but yeah, there essentially will be what seems like an n800 w/ wimax Aug 20 13:59:09 if i'm reading the announcements correctly Aug 20 13:59:26 what a mess Aug 20 13:59:35 cdma, gsm, wimax, wifi Aug 20 13:59:58 so my current, just bought, will arrive wednesday - will be non-upgradable :( ? Aug 20 14:00:21 back to work Aug 20 14:01:31 also doesn't this N800 have hidden FM radio support ? :P Aug 20 14:01:52 I read that somewhere ages back I think Aug 20 14:03:05 timeless: ? Aug 20 14:03:45 i never understood british postal addresses. are the 4 letter combinations zip/area codes? Aug 20 14:03:46 timeless: I wouldn't need gsm or cdma by that stage Aug 20 14:04:14 3G mainly comes with a GSM tarriff these days... but I'd use it for the VoIP - the ulimately would be just a WiMax tarriff Aug 20 14:04:41 and no phone Aug 20 14:10:37 I don't see the attraction of phones. They are these loud, annoying things that give people who want things from me universal access to my time. Aug 20 14:12:10 Then stop using phones. Easy solution. Aug 20 14:12:22 I love my phone Aug 20 14:14:20 disq: Post codes (aka zip codes) are of the form: ABnn nCD. "AB" is the code for the area, which is broken down in sub-divisions. e.g. "CV21-23" is Rugby. The last bit is then generally a street within the area, i.e. "7RB" is my street. Aug 20 14:15:03 ah. thanks for the explanation :) Aug 20 14:17:22 Jaffa: so it's actually ABnn-nn nCD? Aug 20 14:18:24 ah, CV21 to 23, ok Aug 20 14:23:41 Yeah, CV21 doesn't cover the whole of Rugby. "CV" for Coventry, btw. Aug 20 14:26:58 gmail on the 770 has an unprintable character at the start of every email subject line in my inbox Aug 20 14:26:59 weird Aug 20 14:37:56 No Kia or Nok ia ? Aug 20 14:38:16 * Cyorxamp just watched the atmasphere YouTube video showing FM radio on the N800 Aug 20 14:38:26 He said No Kia .... bWHAH! Aug 20 14:40:51 well it's no-kia :P Aug 20 14:41:10 no-ki-a Aug 20 14:41:31 I'm pretty sure of that Aug 20 14:42:32 erm, sounds better yeah Aug 20 14:46:50 NONSENSE! Aug 20 14:46:57 Silly americans :P Aug 20 14:47:56 Nokia (pronounced /nok-iɑ/ in IPA Aug 20 14:48:01 Wikipedia agrees Aug 20 14:48:40 It's also Li Nux not Lin ux Aug 20 14:49:19 i'm trying to install maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_3.2 to scratchbox, but apt-get update ignores the local repository for some reason. any ideas? Aug 20 14:50:13 And while we are at it!!! Colour not Color, Favourite not Favorite! Aug 20 14:50:45 * Cyor sends all 60 million americans away to european schools for re-education Aug 20 14:53:54 in the uk its pronounced knock-eeah Aug 20 14:54:04 There's slightly more than 60 million Americans Aug 20 14:54:17 Cyor, its linucks Aug 20 14:54:20 not lyenucks Aug 20 14:54:23 in Finland we pronounce it just "Nokia" Aug 20 14:54:37 and "Linux" Aug 20 14:56:39 amr: Wrong, totally wrong Aug 20 14:56:46 wrong on what Aug 20 14:57:11 linus pronounces it as linucks so im good with that Aug 20 14:58:27 you don't pronounce his surname in the same way tho Aug 20 14:58:44 huh Aug 20 14:58:45 torvalds? Aug 20 14:58:53 who cares what his surname is Aug 20 14:59:28 bah I mean first name Aug 20 15:00:34 'li' is pronounced with a short [ee] sound: compare prInt, mInImal etc. Aug 20 15:00:34 says Linux Aug 20 15:00:38 http://www.paul.sladen.org/pronunciation/torvalds-says-linux.wav Aug 20 15:00:41 Thus lienux not li-nux Aug 20 15:00:49 needs to have the E Aug 20 15:00:54 where's that linux.au? ah, there it is Aug 20 15:00:56 *says Linus Aug 20 15:01:00 cat linux.au >/dev/dsp Aug 20 15:01:24 I just read his post! Aug 20 15:01:27 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux/msg/53a76cbbbcb6e1c8 Aug 20 15:02:29 listen to him freaking say it Aug 20 15:02:38 I remember that post :) Aug 20 15:09:56 grumble... Aug 20 15:10:23 something unsubscribed me from maemo-user, and i cannot re subscribe anymore (no answer from the robot) Aug 20 15:10:35 does this ring a bell to anyone ? Aug 20 15:13:12 lemoth: you're the same person who complained this morning? Aug 20 15:14:33 yes Aug 20 15:15:10 i also send a mail to maemo-users-owner@maemo.org about this Aug 20 15:16:00 you could use the web interface Aug 20 15:17:37 well, yes thats how i know i miss some post :) Aug 20 15:18:04 you could use the web if to subscribe Aug 20 15:19:59 nope, i did it 5 time since this morning. Never received an answer. Aug 20 15:20:45 i say tomato, you say it wrong. Aug 20 15:23:28 what a nice argument about pronunciation Aug 20 15:23:42 :) Aug 20 15:24:26 Not Lynux, not Linux... Lienux Aug 20 15:26:09 there seem to be no hardware specs of the N800 in the maemo wiki, are they available elsewhere? Aug 20 15:26:21 english is pretty nice. People who invent new words get to define both written and pronounced form. Some people in the world get to define only the former Aug 20 15:34:39 Mikho: or the latter Aug 20 15:35:08 true Aug 20 15:52:45 Is there a decent how-to for USB Host mode with the n800? Aug 20 15:55:02 does anyone know how to check properly if writes to gconf are actually successfull ? Aug 20 15:56:03 basicly the cache is my problem, writing stuff allways results true but i can see from the logs few seconds later that write was not successfull because of memory full condition.. Aug 20 15:56:22 (true and null GError struct) Aug 20 16:35:15 Hi! Aug 20 16:36:16 Did anyone of you experience RAM corruption problems with the 770 yet? Aug 20 16:36:42 not i Aug 20 16:37:42 Mine seems to have some hardware problems. Tested with http://pyropus.ca/software/memtester/ Aug 20 16:38:31 Funny thing: Problems only turn up when wifi packets are transmitted... Aug 20 16:39:56 Any ideas? Aug 20 16:40:34 Sounds like returning it, doesn't it? Aug 20 16:41:24 Any experience how Nokia handles service for second hand owners? Warranty period is still in effect in principle... Aug 20 16:50:42 <`0660> no experience with n800, but usually you have the full warranty as long as you have the receipt Aug 20 16:50:59 <`0660> at least in countries where consumers have some protection :) Aug 20 16:53:09 hi, I have a N770 with a really early 2005s OS version. Can I flash it with OS 2006 Edition version 3.2006.49-2 or do I need to use OS 2005 Edition version 5.2006.13-7? Aug 20 16:53:13 eijk: yes, I did enconter these problems Aug 20 16:53:52 ssvb: interesting, did you have your 770 replaced> Aug 20 16:53:54 ? Aug 20 16:54:16 eijk: they look very much like software problems in the wifi driver Aug 20 16:55:35 ssvb: so, you think it's not a hardware problem? Aug 20 16:56:04 ssvb: I had all kinds of strange problems lately... Aug 20 16:56:13 eijk: memory corruption pattern changes with different firmware versions Aug 20 16:56:16 ssvb: used to work fine... Aug 20 16:57:11 ssvb: i just reflashed with the 3.2006.49-2 Aug 20 16:57:41 ssvb: before I had 49-1 if I remember correctly... Aug 20 16:58:02 ssvb: didn't find the download anymore... Aug 20 16:58:02 eijk: check this link in maemo bugzilla: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=820 Aug 20 16:58:38 The exact version it has is 1-2005.42-9 Aug 20 16:59:32 eijk: I had these problems with all the versions of firmware, what did you use to detect memory corruption issues? Aug 20 17:00:26 http://pyropus.ca/software/memtester/ Aug 20 17:01:51 After a few months of flawless operation I had a strange crash after which the tablet wouldn't boot anymore: No progress bar, only Nokia logo. White screen in charging mode... Aug 20 17:02:09 eijk: yes, I used the same test program for doing these tests (but earlier detected them with some other memory hungry software) Aug 20 17:02:20 Then I reflashed. Flasher complained, it couldn't flash. 2nd try worked... Aug 20 17:03:03 eijk: was your battery fully charged when flashing? Aug 20 17:03:17 Yes, on charger. Aug 20 17:04:52 eijk: also check 'dmesg' log, it may have weird wifi driver related error messages when you encounter memory corruption Aug 20 17:05:17 No, didn't see anything on dmesg... Aug 20 17:05:24 Are OS 2005 and OS 2006 just different software versions, or is there two different versions of N770 hardware, one for OS 2005 and another for OS 2006? Aug 20 17:07:42 Lynoure: I think, you can flash the OS 2006. Aug 20 17:08:18 eijk: what router/access point are you using by the way? mine is Asus WL-520G Aug 20 17:08:29 D-Link 624+ Aug 20 17:09:46 It's so irreproducible... Now it seems fine.... Aug 20 17:12:11 eijk: Thanks Aug 20 17:13:17 eijk: yes, it is sometimes quite hard to reproduce, but you are definitely not alone having this issue Aug 20 17:13:27 Ok... Aug 20 17:13:38 The instructions (at http://maemo.org/community/wiki/HowTo_EASILY_Boot_From_MMC_card) for booting from the MMC slot advise making a fat partition and an ext2 partition. Is there any reason I shouldn't make them both ext2? Or just make one large ext2 partition? I don't generally have need of fat partitions. Aug 20 17:13:57 re Aug 20 17:14:15 ssvb: so, you think, it's really no hardware issue? Aug 20 17:15:02 ssvb: sll the different problems seemed to turn up quite at the same time for me... Aug 20 17:15:11 eijk: I can't be really sure, but my intuition tells me that the problem is in software Aug 20 17:16:10 ssvb: ok... Aug 20 17:17:45 eijk: I suspect that lots of users blaming opera crashes and thinking that these are caused by out of memory problem actually suffer from the same memory corruption issue Aug 20 17:17:53 ssvb: then I'll take its good mood and reflash it now... Aug 20 17:18:54 eijk: I'm using only usbnet and bluetooth now, the device works fine and quite stable Aug 20 17:19:36 ssvb: Ok. did you try reducing the transmit power from 100 mW to 10 mW? Aug 20 17:21:22 eijk: I don't remember, but I tried a lot of settings both on the device and on the router (excluding insecure WEP), nothing helped Aug 20 17:21:42 ssvb: ok... Aug 20 17:22:50 eijk: are you using WEP or WPA encryption? Aug 20 17:23:21 ssvb: WEP :-/ Aug 20 17:23:59 eijk: ok... Aug 20 17:25:54 * CardinalFang waves. Aug 20 17:29:35 eijk: Well, if somebody could build a debug version of wifi driver and investigated this issue, that might provide some more information regarding this issue. Unfortunately it is much easier for me to just pretend that Nokia 770 does not have wifi at all, I'm quite satisfied with bluetooth Aug 20 17:42:14 Hey all, I know this sounds like Richard Stallman -esque ramblings, but has anyone made an attempt at a 100% free software 770/n800? Aug 20 17:42:52 I really like the device, but I know that Nokia has abandoned the 770 (that's why they got so cheap) and would like to make a crack at a fully open source distribution. Aug 20 17:43:56 there's no open source wlan driver Aug 20 17:44:03 that's the biggest issue Aug 20 17:44:15 what's the chipset? Aug 20 17:44:38 google tells. I can't remember it now Aug 20 17:44:56 but Nokia is planning to release a new HE rootfs for 770.. Aug 20 17:45:05 HE? Aug 20 17:45:06 <_Monkey> HE is active in here..so just check back ... Aug 20 17:45:17 hacker edition Aug 20 17:45:26 most of the n800 sw on 770 Aug 20 17:45:34 right. Aug 20 17:45:49 not intended for end users though Aug 20 17:49:12 Yeah, I'm interested going after some things that were never really important to Nokia. Namely simplifying the UI. Aug 20 17:49:58 I've used HE briefly but was wholey unimpressed, which is unsuprising as it is really just for developers with a 770 who want to see how there stuff would (kinda sorta) work on the n800 Aug 20 17:51:01 kulve, Yet another HE rootfs? OS2007+1? Aug 20 17:51:30 The instructions (at http://maemo.org/community/wiki/HowTo_EASILY_Boot_From_MMC_card) for booting from the MMC slot advise making a fat partition and an ext2 partition. Is there any reason I shouldn't make them both ext2? Or just make one large ext2 partition? I don't generally have need of fat partitions. Aug 20 17:51:58 HE edition including the stuff now in the newest n800 release. That's what I read from the mailing list, iirc Aug 20 17:53:03 jjazz: maybe the one is intended for "normal" use.. Aug 20 17:53:14 i.e. file manager could see it, etc Aug 20 17:53:50 kulve: Can file manager not read an ext2 partition? Aug 20 17:54:03 I guess it can't Aug 20 17:54:23 Also, I could be wrong about this, but isn't the stock setup looking for an fat32 partition to put the virtual memory file Aug 20 17:54:40 i.e. it's probably quite hard coded to read mount and read first partition and assume it's vfat (mounting is actually done on lower level..) Aug 20 17:54:49 Ah. Ugh. Aug 20 17:54:51 OK Aug 20 17:55:31 you could manually insmod ext2, mount and symlink your ext2 partition to a dir under ~/MyDocs if you want fm to use it Aug 20 17:55:40 ssvb: thanks for your thoughts... actually, for me wifi is quite essential... Aug 20 17:56:15 I'm not actually sure if FM cares about the fs type, but the mounting scripts does Aug 20 17:56:17 vfat works fine for data though Aug 20 17:56:18 do Aug 20 17:56:27 ssvb: but for now I'll try and monitor the problem with memtester... Aug 20 17:56:30 jjazz: you might also find this guide useful. Similar content, but a little simpler. http://examplified.net/guide/Nokia_770/ Aug 20 17:56:42 notpeter: thanks. I'll look at it. Aug 20 17:56:54 ssvb: maybe I'll also try to have it replaced as long as under warranty... Aug 20 17:57:40 * pupnik ponders a #tablet-users channel Aug 20 17:58:44 notpeter: That link is quite helpful. It includes some of the missing detail as to why a fat partition might be useful. Thanks. Aug 20 18:01:50 so Aug 20 18:01:53 shadow passwords. Aug 20 18:02:10 do we use them? aparently not, on my system. why the heck not? Aug 20 18:06:45 on the device? Because there's only one passwd and everybody knows it.. Aug 20 18:26:35 Is there a decent walkthrough for the n800 usb host mode? Aug 20 18:26:49 kulve: as for the wifi driver sources, something seems to be available here: https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/ Aug 20 18:31:02 only part of it is source Aug 20 18:31:05 the rest is a chunk of binary Aug 20 18:31:11 it's the one part of the device nokia won't open Aug 20 18:31:17 (or more likely, it's conexant that wont') Aug 20 18:31:58 In the US at least there are FCC regulation problems with a fully open software radio. Aug 20 18:32:04 likely conexant yah Aug 20 18:33:09 procto: if we suppose there is some bug (or a lot of them) in wifi driver, what part, open or closed is more likely to be affected by them? Aug 20 18:33:46 uhm, both are just as likely, I'd say Aug 20 18:33:58 I would say closed Aug 20 18:34:01 I'm planning on reversing it and writing a new driver, so it can do packet injection in monitor mode Aug 20 18:34:01 hmm, the internal mail client interpret & as " Aug 20 18:34:11 because if it's full software driver, then it's doing alot more work Aug 20 18:34:12 but I haven't had the time yet Aug 20 18:34:17 but it is specualtion Aug 20 18:35:28 procto: What's your timeframe on that? ;p Aug 20 18:35:32 procto: if that binary blob comes from conexant, maybe it was better tested, I wonder if it is reused in other devices too Aug 20 18:35:46 procto: Packet injection on the n800 is very important to *some* Aug 20 18:37:20 might wanna hook up with the OpenBSD efforts to get conexant and intel to open the blobs Aug 20 18:37:30 kupesoft: I really don't know. solely depends on time availability. Aug 20 18:37:45 How much time do you need? I'm willing to sponsor the project. Aug 20 18:37:47 kupesoft: it's important to me Aug 20 18:38:00 but I'm relaly busy with work until the end of august Aug 20 18:38:06 and after that I have university, AND work Aug 20 18:38:11 Apparently Theo is already in conversation with Conexant about some of the wifi chipsets Aug 20 18:38:16 I can't estimate my availability right now Aug 20 18:38:29 oh, that is old news tho, so who knows what is going on now Aug 20 18:38:47 kupesoft: but I talked with dragorn about it (author of kismet) and he's not willing to put in the time to do it (he's an n800 owner) Aug 20 18:39:10 he says, however, that's it's similar to prism54 softmac Aug 20 18:39:28 google, there WAS a 770 softmac package, but the softmac dev as far as I can tell is pretty dead Aug 20 18:39:41 and there was no package source Aug 20 18:39:41 dragorn: howdy :> Aug 20 18:39:51 ah Aug 20 18:43:59 I wonder how similar it is to islsm Aug 20 18:46:54 so it looks like islsm would support aireplay Aug 20 18:46:59 but not airodump? Aug 20 18:49:57 With the n800 in host mode you could use a dongle for aircrack, Aug 20 18:59:11 has anyone attested to a working n800 usb host mode? Aug 20 18:59:16 say, from this: http://www.muru.com/linux/n800-usb-host/ Aug 20 18:59:51 What would you use a dongle for? Aug 20 19:03:54 the dongle would be doing the injection Aug 20 19:06:42 I think a decent how-to wiki should be written up for how to get host mode working. Aug 20 19:06:49 Unfortunately, I haven't gotten it working yet ;p Aug 20 19:12:01 procto: Thanks. I didn't see that you were talking about injection. I've been running kismet and aircrack-ng without too much trouble. :) Aug 20 19:16:48 aircrack work well? Aug 20 19:21:12 mplayer won't install ('unable to install').. any ideas why? Aug 20 19:21:45 something's wrong Aug 20 19:21:57 what does the application manager log say? Aug 20 19:22:55 where's the log? Aug 20 19:23:01 nvm Aug 20 19:23:16 TomCreer: aircrack will work. pretty much all the tools in the package besides airmon and aireplay Aug 20 19:23:24 and you don't really need airmon Aug 20 19:23:27 I sorta got airmon to work Aug 20 19:23:32 but it's better to use ignore it Aug 20 19:23:35 parse error, invalid package name (charachter ` not allowed)... Aug 20 19:23:46 ah, sweet Aug 20 19:23:54 even airodump? Aug 20 19:25:34 eijk Aug 20 19:29:53 TomCreer: i haven't heard of that mplayer issue before - if you could post the mplayer version, os version and how you installed it (from a file or web or .install file) to garage.maemo.org it might help the package maintainer become aware of an error Aug 20 19:30:09 i don't think it's an mplayer issue Aug 20 19:30:18 i'll post full log entry in sec Aug 20 19:30:52 straind: With injection? Aug 20 19:31:22 anybody here with an intel mac interested in os x port of sb2? Aug 20 19:31:36 Installing mplayer 1.0rc1-maemo.18.n770 Aug 20 19:31:36 apt-worker: not configuring unrelated package vncviewer Aug 20 19:31:36 apt-worker: not configuring unrelated package libsqlite0 Aug 20 19:31:36 dpkg: parse error, in file `/var/lib/dpkg/status' near line 8883 Aug 20 19:31:36 package `osso-applet-sound-l10n-itit': Aug 20 19:31:36 invalid package name (character ` ' not allowed - only letters, Aug 20 19:31:38 digits and -+._ allowed) Aug 20 19:31:40 E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (2) Aug 20 19:32:53 someone uses fmradio? I can't hear any useful sound, just the noises.... Aug 20 19:33:47 plug in your headphones Aug 20 19:33:56 they are the antaena (sp?) Aug 20 19:34:22 TomCreer: i've seen that three times now - /var/lib/dpkg/status is corrupt. You can restore from a backup statusfile in /var/lib/dpkg/ or edit the file yourself (textfile) to fix the offending line Aug 20 19:34:38 pupnik : cheers :)P Aug 20 19:35:07 Do I need the original headphones? Aug 20 19:36:20 lle2: what's sb2? (I have an intel mac...) Aug 20 19:36:37 DaniloCesar: just any headphones you can plug Aug 20 19:36:40 notpeter: http://freedesktop.org/Software/sbox2 Aug 20 19:36:45 no, but different headphones will give varying results with reception depending on lead length (in general with headphone antennae) Aug 20 19:37:40 lle2: Umm...yeah...that'd be sweet. Have you gotten it working for Maemo dev yet? Aug 20 19:37:41 Sparr ? Aug 20 19:37:45 <_Monkey> someone should fill in the blank Aug 20 19:37:54 notpeter: I've a ppc mac myself and am currently working on porting sb2 to it, would be nice to see how it goes with the intel version Aug 20 19:37:58 lle2: I've been doing my stuff with Ubuntu under parallels Aug 20 19:38:48 pupnik, qgil, kreig, Thanks! its working Aug 20 19:38:56 notpeter: I've built some maemo debs using sb2 on a debian box, it's not there yet completely Aug 20 19:39:23 notpeter: I'd initially be just happy to see if it's at all possible to do sb2 style tricks on the os x. so far it looks quite promising Aug 20 19:40:04 err, any easy way to press 'escape' on x term on 770? Aug 20 19:40:27 notpeter: I'll get back to you once I've got something running on my ppc mac Aug 20 19:40:51 notpeter: might take a week or two Aug 20 19:42:40 lle2: sure. You can eamil me at 'not' + mynick + '@yahoo.com' Aug 20 19:42:52 ok Aug 20 19:43:17 i'm out...gotta go fix a printer that doesn't print the letter J. Aug 20 19:43:22 (no kidding) Aug 20 19:46:03 TomCreer: isn't the back arrowy thingy esc? Aug 20 19:48:06 ok :) Aug 20 19:48:26 would maemo care if i just deleted /var/lib/dpkg/status? Aug 20 19:51:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0bKq3x74UE Aug 20 19:54:26 Silicium: i like the sofa Aug 20 19:54:48 lol Aug 20 20:03:43 milhouse: Carlos wrote today "We're close to releasing a new version of the hacker edition" -http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2007-August/011388.html - he knows better than me Aug 20 20:05:18 qgil: the kernel thing is strange Aug 20 20:05:46 qgil: I mean, there's really not that much preventing us from having an up to date kernel on it Aug 20 20:06:09 lle2: I'm really not following the details Aug 20 20:06:31 lle2: you might want to discuss with Carlos or Joni Aug 20 20:06:57 qgil: sure, but omap1 is actively used by many, so the kernel is not in too bad shape for it Aug 20 20:07:19 qgil: it's mostly some minor breakage + our wifi Aug 20 20:08:26 qgil: and I would really like to have 770 supported with the new software releases, at least from core sw's point of view Aug 20 20:09:02 qgil: but it seems there's absolutely zero demand internally for it Aug 20 20:09:07 lle2: sure, but... I'm really not involved in the HE :) I just posted the update now because milhouse was asking yesterday Aug 20 20:09:22 lle2: N800 kernel may have some OMAP1 related stuff broken (dspgateway?), see http://linux.omap.com/pipermail/linux-omap-open-source/2007-August/011016.html Aug 20 20:10:40 lle2: this post confirms broken dsp theory: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2007-August/011392.html Aug 20 20:11:33 qgil: sure, but... I guess what I'm aiming at here is that I know a few guys who could really easily fix the 770 support in current kernel, in all other ways except maybe for the dsp and wifi Aug 20 20:12:26 lle2: should I insist that you could contact Carlos & Joni to discuss your ideas and proposal in a more fruitful way? Aug 20 20:12:54 qgil: just that core doesn't have anyone to do it, or manage doing it. if somebody else would find it as something that's useful I would happily give pointers as to how to get it done in practise Aug 20 20:12:58 lle2: my involvement in the HE is a) to make sure the project is there and b) write about it in maemo.org when a new release come Aug 20 20:13:45 qgil: yeah, but do you think it would be useful? I've not followed what 770 users want at all Aug 20 20:13:59 lle2: I can copy&paste this log in an email and send it to Carlos - you could do the same, or just walk some meters and find him :) Aug 20 20:14:19 qgil: he's hiding in my kitchen?!? Aug 20 20:16:58 lle2: most 770 users want Mozilla based browser, Skype, SIP support and whatever cool stuff available in the IT OS 2007 Aug 20 20:17:29 qgil: figures, people always want everything Aug 20 20:17:46 updating software for the tablet doesn't require an open wlan driver any less than it does on desktop linux Aug 20 20:17:55 /less/more/ Aug 20 20:18:19 lle2: of course Aug 20 20:20:45 pupnik: upgrading the kernel from 2.6.16(?) to 2.6.22 will definitely break the wlan driver, fixing it is not trivial, most likely. Aug 20 20:20:46 can i get gps to track where i am without a network connection Aug 20 20:20:53 if i downloaded the maps etc Aug 20 20:21:07 is it possible at all or is it a lost cause Aug 20 20:21:21 qgil: are there any plans to make HE development more open or even relay it almost completely to the community? Aug 20 20:22:23 ssvb: the community can do completely the part that is currently open, unless someone goes ahead with some serious reverse engineering Aug 20 20:22:36 ssvb: complicated Aug 20 20:23:02 ssvb: more open development, I really don't know the short term details Aug 20 20:23:08 ssvb: but Aug 20 20:23:48 ssvb: (let me find a URL) Aug 20 20:24:40 ssvb: perhaps http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/378 could influence in the openness and emancipation of the HE development Aug 20 20:24:44 ssvb: perhaps Aug 20 20:25:06 if somebody sends a patch fixing 770 support in the kernel to linux-omap mailing list, it's very likely to be well received Aug 20 20:29:40 but, as is quite often the case, it gets damn quiet when it would be time to actually do some of the dirty work instead of just talking about it. Aug 20 20:33:00 anyway to apt-get an app + its dependencies? Aug 20 20:35:40 qgil: thanks, but that blog is quite long and seems to overcomplicate some things :) what a community developer needs is some way to 1. fix a problem in a core package (can be done if the sources of the package are available) 2. deploy the fix in a convenient way to end users who are willing to try it (we have some serious problems here) Aug 20 20:37:14 ssvb: define 2 Aug 20 20:37:25 ssvb: "convenient way" Aug 20 20:39:47 anybody home? Aug 20 20:39:55 _Monkey: anybody home? Aug 20 20:39:57 <_Monkey> neostrider: bugger all, i dunno Aug 20 20:40:16 hi neo Aug 20 20:41:17 http://bergie.iki.fi/midcom-serveattachmentguid-23ae2cfed62711db8ed1550673c568ae68ae/maemomapper-openstreetmap-mapnik.jpg Aug 20 20:41:17 what theme is that Aug 20 20:41:17 what's wrong with the current kernel? Aug 20 20:41:42 hi Aug 20 20:42:10 have you tried my new release, pupnik? Aug 20 20:42:12 amr: Plankton Aug 20 20:42:14 <_Monkey> Plankton is a good theme eh? Aug 20 20:42:39 cool thanks Aug 20 20:46:19 qgil: first the developer needs to be sure that he does not introduce any problems while building the package and the only changes will be introduced by his fix (that means the result of building a package from the same sources by nokia and any other developer should be the same) Aug 20 20:47:30 gtg Aug 20 20:47:33 cya Aug 20 20:47:57 qgil: second, it should be possible to build either a full firmware image with a replaced package or it should be possible to install a replacement for a core package from a .deb file without too much hassle Aug 20 20:50:23 ssvb: deb packages, build dependencies resolution, sources available, update via packages or whole image... Aug 20 20:50:41 ssvb: does that ring a bell? :) Aug 20 20:51:49 ssvb: isn't a distro a simplification (and not an overcomplication) of an integrated process taking care of all the elements you are describing? Aug 20 20:55:24 qgil: not quite, centralized distro maintained by somebody who is not particularly interested in a random community developer's fixes slows down a lot of things quite significantly Aug 20 20:56:18 ssvb: "maintained by somebody who is not particularly interested in a random community developer's fixes" are your words Aug 20 20:56:29 ssvb: from my point of view the logical principle is Aug 20 20:56:50 ssvb: if the maintainer is like this then it won't go ahead with a distro Aug 20 20:57:06 ssvb: if the maintainer goes ahead with a distro is because is not like this Aug 20 20:57:20 ssvb: the other options make no sense Aug 20 20:57:59 ssvb: but you could say that non-sense happens sometimes, yes :) Aug 20 20:59:55 ssvb: however, what about shared responsibility of the HE repository? HE means not official Nokia support, and this provides flexibility for ownership in a way that is more difficult for the officially supported software - just an idea Aug 20 21:00:34 qgil: well, maintainers are usually quite conservative and don't like to change things that work acceptable from their point of view (decision to stick with an old kernel is old kernel is one of the examples) :) Aug 20 21:00:54 ssvb: open an experimental branch Aug 20 21:03:01 ssvb: but... what am I doing trying to convince you? :) otoh what would you do if you were Nokia? How would you answer the question you ar asking now? Aug 20 21:04:12 hey all!!! Aug 20 21:04:20 qgil: hi, dude! Aug 20 21:06:16 nokia should drop symbian and invest everything in linux :P Aug 20 21:06:28 * pupnik ducks Aug 20 21:06:51 get serious :P Aug 20 21:07:40 * pupnik has no clue about the phone side of the business Aug 20 21:07:51 symbian is a good business, you wouldn't drop it if you were Nokia :) Aug 20 21:07:59 qgil: making FIASCO image creation tool available + providing some hosting for experimental community improved images would certainly help to solve a lot of problems with the deployment of community fixes, but that may be too much :) Aug 20 21:09:38 ssvb: there is a FIASCO creation tool available in the community and, well, hosting itself is not a problem nowadays Aug 20 21:10:03 ssvb: what you need is relicensing of some packages to make them distributable Aug 20 21:10:28 is the plankton theme only available for the n800? Aug 20 21:10:39 qgil: is there a FIASCO creation tool available? or even FIASCO format description? Aug 20 21:11:18 qgil: hosting of an image elsewhere may introduce legal problems Aug 20 21:11:40 ssvb: the 'seamless software update' project (allowing updates via deb packages) will help in this relicensing, the distro (if it happens at all) will help in this sense as well Aug 20 21:11:48 qgil: I guess you are asking to enter a serial number for downloading images not just for fun Aug 20 21:12:07 ssvb: for license restrictions Aug 20 21:12:24 anyone? Aug 20 21:13:13 anyway, too late for an early bird like me - my bed is waiting Aug 20 21:13:37 thanks for the conversation and the good ideas Aug 20 21:13:43 qgil: any idea when this 'seamless software update' project can become available? will it support Nokia 770 too? Aug 20 21:13:45 cheers Aug 20 21:13:53 ah, sorry, good bye then Aug 20 21:14:05 see you later again :) Aug 20 21:14:20 yeah, let's talk another day about the seamleszzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Aug 20 21:16:50 ssvb do you think it is practical to do general-purpose optimization on 770/N800 SDL? Aug 20 21:16:56 :| Aug 20 21:17:29 i suppose that's a strange question Aug 20 21:18:34 my guess is that these games that do compositing interally at 24/32bpp then use standard SDL are wasting a lot of cpu Aug 20 21:19:20 pupnik: maybe DSP core could handle screen updates with automatic 32->16bpp conversion Aug 20 21:23:15 pupnik: there are lots of ideas about what can be improved in the core packages, maybe some of them will work, maybe some will not, but I would better prefer code hacking over taking too much care about packaging and distro maintaining :) Aug 20 21:23:34 yeah i can understand that Aug 20 21:24:47 at 320x240 or 400x240 things are good enough as they are in sdl land Aug 20 21:25:37 for homebrew games at least Aug 20 21:25:51 there might be a couple that run 800x480 which would benefit Aug 20 21:29:04 what i have to do now is integrating things with maemo-games startup, which isn't very interesting Aug 20 21:29:38 And then learn more about the gp2x system and the software Aug 20 21:30:32 Our emulators are not very good right now Aug 20 21:31:51 The xkbd virtual keyboard can run alongside a 320x240 pixel doubled window with a narrow layout Aug 20 21:32:26 but sdl fullscreen apps currently can't get input from it Aug 20 21:33:25 is the plankton theme only available for the n800? Aug 20 21:34:29 themes? Aug 20 21:34:30 <_Monkey> themes is, like, http://downloads.maemo.org/other/ for recent Bora themes, http://thememaker.garage.maemo.org/About%20Theme%20Maker.html for the 'Theme Maker' applet, https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-theme-tools/README for tools http://icct.blogspot.com/2006/04/maemo-themes-are-here.html Aug 20 21:35:09 i think plankton can work on 770 Aug 20 21:36:03 oh cool thanks Aug 20 21:38:33 i cant find plankton on those links Aug 20 21:38:42 i can find the n800 one on the guys blog Aug 20 21:39:08 pupnik: 320x240 (pixel doubled) resolution leaves 160x480 (nondoubled) part of screen at one of the sides, do you plan to use it for virtual keyboard? Aug 20 21:45:19 im sure ive banned myself from ssh Aug 20 21:45:20 how can i check Aug 20 21:53:32 ssvb yes that works Aug 20 21:53:53 i made a keyboard layout for 160width Aug 20 21:54:44 pupnik: that's cool Aug 20 21:55:06 http://pupnik.de/xkbd_game2_xsp.png Aug 20 21:55:13 evening all Aug 20 21:56:34 kupesoft: Aug 20 21:56:52 dfrggvddfvfvfcfcv Aug 20 21:57:01 kupo! Aug 20 21:57:44 Anyone familiar with the internals of vorbis? Aug 20 21:58:41 no, have you compiled it for dsp? Aug 20 21:59:15 not yet, trying to work out how to keep the buffer filled and whether I need to worry about it is ov_read() has an internal buffer anyway Aug 20 22:00:05 ov_read() is called with an output buffer and desired size of pcm output data, it calls a fn to read data from somewhere (I can define the function) Aug 20 22:00:56 just wondering whether I can call the ov_read() part as a callback for a bulk transfer (but probably not), or whether to use shared memory and poll to ensure I have enough data on the DSP side Aug 20 22:01:20 yeah Aug 20 22:01:52 all rather esoteric unless you happen to have read the docs, so don't worry too much :) ;) Aug 20 22:02:25 anytime you call the output buffer function, your handler code knows the dsp needs another x milliseconds input? Aug 20 22:02:32 * pupnik is full of horrible ideas Aug 20 22:02:57 for implementing tremor, or random dsp stuff or just random stuff? Aug 20 22:03:01 Either way, fire away Aug 20 22:04:09 well normally i'd expect the vorbisidec to tell the handler 'i want another X frames now please' Aug 20 22:04:39 I think a frame can be an arbitrary size Aug 20 22:04:44 up to ~1TB Aug 20 22:04:50 so rather large in theory Aug 20 22:04:58 oh Aug 20 22:05:43 no point in babbling about it Aug 20 22:05:43 So my understanding is that you ask it for a given amount of output, and it reads data in and processes it untill it can complete that request (or less than that request) Aug 20 22:05:54 less presumably if it would need to start decoding another portion, etc. Aug 20 22:06:11 *my babbling Aug 20 22:06:25 ok Aug 20 22:06:32 The problem for me is that the input (compressed) data can be arbitrarily large, and I need to define a buffer at compile time Aug 20 22:06:45 pupnik: Babbling is good, helps with ideas Aug 20 22:07:11 what about two input buffers? Aug 20 22:07:25 it reads from one, you write to the next one Aug 20 22:07:35 data always available Aug 20 22:07:35 ah, there's another caveat Aug 20 22:07:38 lardman: Did my son's babbling help with any ideas? Aug 20 22:07:52 straind: I thought he's struck again! Aug 20 22:08:07 straind: yep, thank him for me with the following: "ndisnldaihda;fosajf" Aug 20 22:08:51 He's sure to get more out of than than anyone else. BBL. Switching desktops so he won't do it again... Aug 20 22:08:54 The caveat being that I'd prefer to keep the code intact rather than pulling out and implementing each of the 'page' decompression steps Aug 20 22:09:13 and that means that the ov_read() call has to return Aug 20 22:09:45 In the dspgateway, to obtain data from ARM, you generally make a call to ask for it, then return, and a callback funtion is run when the data is ready Aug 20 22:09:54 this isn't going to work with ov Aug 20 22:09:58 _read Aug 20 22:10:27 any ideas on why the application installer does not get started when I click on a .deb file from the garage? Aug 20 22:10:34 why not lardman? Aug 20 22:11:21 Perhaps I should recruit my son to help me with this bluetooth thing as he randomly presses the keys. Aug 20 22:11:22 ov_read() is not returning? Aug 20 22:12:00 ov_read() must return the data in a buffer, but to obtain data from the ARM side I have to request the data, then let the function return so that my callback can be called Aug 20 22:12:50 sitting at my ham test, waiting ... Aug 20 22:13:07 honey glazed? Aug 20 22:13:19 I have run: update-mime-database /usr/share/mime, osso-update-category-database /usr/share/mime & update-desktop-database to try to fix the problem... Aug 20 22:13:22 Virginia ham? Aug 20 22:13:38 radio kind Aug 20 22:13:52 well you might still be glazed then :) Aug 20 22:14:01 what happens edt? do you get prompted to download the .deb? Aug 20 22:14:05 not as tasty, but much more geektastic Aug 20 22:15:30 pupnik yes. stranger still if I go to www.mulliner.org and try the .deb files there they work. I am begining to suspect its a garage problem... Aug 20 22:15:40 pupnik: There is a possible, nice way around the problem, in ov_read(), block (semaphore) until enough data is available in a local buffer, and while blocked a lowe priority task can run and fill the buffer Aug 20 22:15:53 pupnik: I'm not sure I can transfer data between tasks though Aug 20 22:16:57 garage uses https and mulliner uses http. On mulliner its reconized as application/x-debian-package, on garage the type is unknown. Aug 20 22:17:24 the garage package was/is the 1.60 version of UKMP Aug 20 22:17:53 looks like you've hit upon an issue that affects many people edt Aug 20 22:17:59 is this a new problem Aug 20 22:19:00 I have install from the garage many times. Just got back from vacation and now the garage installs fail to work... Aug 20 22:19:17 lardman: You shouldn't need threads or tasks or whatever to decode data. Aug 20 22:19:23 What exactly is the problem you're trying to solve? Aug 20 22:20:45 derf: To interface with the DSP kernel I must use at least one task Aug 20 22:20:56 derf: Tremor (vorbis) on the DSP in the n800 Aug 20 22:21:08 Yes, I know _that_ much. Aug 20 22:21:16 sorry Aug 20 22:21:33 do you know anything about vorbis, and how it's functions work? Aug 20 22:22:07 My main issue is that a frame of data is arbitrarily sized (so I understand) so to implement a callback on the DSP side that reads some amount of data and then retutns PCM data... Aug 20 22:22:12 Absolutely I do. Aug 20 22:22:27 won't necessarily work, as I may not get enough data (or I may get too much) Aug 20 22:22:36 "Frames" are not arbitrarily sized. Aug 20 22:22:53 vorbis 'frames' rather than ogg ones? Aug 20 22:23:08 Ogg doesn't know anything about frames. Aug 20 22:23:27 but it has pages of some size, wanted to make sure that's not what we're talking about Aug 20 22:24:09 Ogg has pages. Pages store compressed packets. Packets decode into uncompressed blocks. Blocks contain many frames, where a frame contains one (1) sample from each channel. Aug 20 22:24:23 At least using the Vorbis documentation's terminology. Aug 20 22:24:33 Okay, so I ideally want to read the data for a packet and decompress it Aug 20 22:24:36 I will assume you meant "blocks". Aug 20 22:24:49 okay Aug 20 22:25:08 sorry about my poor terminology Aug 20 22:25:15 No, it's no problem. Aug 20 22:25:34 Anyway... Aug 20 22:25:36 reading that, i'd think you'd be fetching packets Aug 20 22:25:45 So I need to read packets, then decompress them, etc Aug 20 22:25:46 using wget shows: Aug 20 22:25:50 WARNING: Certificate verification error for garage.maemo.org: unable to get local issuer certificate Aug 20 22:26:00 You are using vorbisfile, correct? Aug 20 22:26:07 could this be an issue triggering the garage error? Aug 20 22:26:10 Since you're using ov_read. Aug 20 22:26:26 edt - i assume so, and i assume the garage maintainer must know about it Aug 20 22:26:32 derf: I was basing on the lowmem-no-byte branch of Tremor Aug 20 22:26:51 vorbisfile will handle reading the pages, parsing out the packets, and decompressing the blocks. Aug 20 22:27:06 ah, but there is the problem Aug 20 22:27:14 would you know if a bug has been filed? If not I will open one - its the only way to be sure the maintainer really does know. Aug 20 22:27:26 derf: I need to pass data to the DSP, where ov_read will be running Aug 20 22:27:48 derf: Therefore I need to either know how much to pass, or to be able to let the code ask for arbitrary amounts of data from the ARM Aug 20 22:28:29 Are you really running all of ov_read on the DSP? Aug 20 22:28:39 derf: My goal here is to get all of the code running on the DSP, then think about splitting it across both the ARM and DSP Aug 20 22:28:58 so the answer is not yet, but that looks like the easiest way to see if it works Aug 20 22:29:37 Well, the way ov_read currently works is, it buffers the available from one packet's worth of data. Aug 20 22:30:15 If you ask for data and it has none, it will decode one packet, and then return you data from that packet up to the amount you asked for. Aug 20 22:30:23 yep Aug 20 22:30:50 does it read in exactly one packet's worth of data from file/callback fn Aug 20 22:30:56 If it had some data left over from the last packet, it returns that. Aug 20 22:31:18 lardman: It reads exactly enough pages to be able to decode one additional packet. Aug 20 22:32:13 If you ask for more data than is immediately availble (from the previous packet, or from the just decoded packet if it didn't have any left over from the previous packet), it returns what was available, and no more. Aug 20 22:32:26 ah, okay, that's good Aug 20 22:32:54 so I could set my buffer size to be large enough to hold the pages to decode one packet Aug 20 22:33:07 assuming I can know that at compile time? Aug 20 22:33:27 Buffer for which direction, compressed data to the DSP, or uncompressed data back? Aug 20 22:33:43 compressed to DSP, the other way doesn't matter too much Aug 20 22:34:00 as I can just keep calling ov_read to get rid of it Aug 20 22:34:15 I think... Aug 20 22:34:32 Well, technically the size of the compressed packets is in fact unbounded. Aug 20 22:34:45 yeah, that was my worry Aug 20 22:35:01 At least from the Ogg level. Aug 20 22:35:08 There may be a Vorbis-specific maximum. Aug 20 22:35:49 The size of a page is limited to just under 64K. Aug 20 22:35:56 I couldn't find one mentioned, though it must be possible to calculate at runtime Aug 20 22:35:57 But a packet can span multiple pages. Aug 20 22:37:36 Let's see what the DirectShow filters use, since they also require fixed-size buffers... Aug 20 22:37:59 they have more memory to play with than I do Aug 20 22:38:22 from what I read on the ml, ~0.5Mb is reckoned to be enough Aug 20 22:38:23 That's true. What neighborhood are you looking for? Aug 20 22:38:55 Not sure to tell the truth, my total memory is something like 64kb Aug 20 22:39:03 but that is shared by the kernel too Aug 20 22:39:17 The buffer comes out of that? Aug 20 22:39:23 If I memory map, I think I can access up to 16Mb, which would be enough Aug 20 22:39:34 Yes, that's my understanding of it Aug 20 22:39:45 You're probably going to have to memory map, then. Aug 20 22:39:50 DSP kernel, not Linux kernel Aug 20 22:39:58 Yes, I realize that. Aug 20 22:40:14 A single Ogg page is allowed to be almost 64KB by itself. Aug 20 22:40:24 And a packet can certainly span 2 pages. Aug 20 22:40:41 Regardless of the packet's actual size. Aug 20 22:40:51 I think it may turn out to be easier to pick apart the Tremor code and only run part of it on the DSP Aug 20 22:41:05 That was my thought as well. Aug 20 22:41:21 I'd just hoped I could get some test code running quickly Aug 20 22:41:52 I'm not sure you can do anything with 64K quickly. Aug 20 22:41:58 :) Aug 20 22:42:25 It looks like the code I need to target is localised in dsp.c Aug 20 22:43:16 though decompression of the tables, etc., ought to be done on the DSP too Aug 20 22:43:38 as they will only be needed there Aug 20 22:44:10 Hmm, it had been so long since I updated my copy I didn't even have a dsp.c. Aug 20 22:44:14 I wonder when that got added. Aug 20 22:44:33 Oh, in June. Aug 20 22:45:07 it contains vorbis_dsp_pcmout called from ov_read Aug 20 22:45:24 which I guess does the work Aug 20 22:46:12 what is vf->vd ? Aug 20 22:46:28 * lardman searches for vf definition Aug 20 22:46:30 vorbisfile's Vorbis decoder. Aug 20 22:46:42 ah, so it contains the tables, etc. Aug 20 22:46:49 vorbis_dsp_state. Aug 20 22:47:06 Yes. Aug 20 22:47:46 Anyway, dsp.c is really just the high-level driver. Aug 20 22:47:52 hmm, dsp.c has a lot of calls into libogg, which is inconvenient Aug 20 22:48:50 Well, libogg also contains the bitpacker, needed to read the bits from the packet. Aug 20 22:49:17 that can be done on the ARM side before the buffer is passed to the DSP Aug 20 22:49:29 it's just where to make the split really Aug 20 22:49:36 need to do more reading Aug 20 22:49:48 I mean, the part that pulls out individual bits, not bytes. Aug 20 22:50:04 ah Aug 20 22:54:14 Something else to worry about later (when you're not just trying to get something running quickly), is if the codebooks will even fit in 64k. Aug 20 22:54:24 yeah Aug 20 22:54:28 I'm pretty sure all the ones produced by the reference encoder will. Aug 20 22:54:45 just wondering if I'd be better off just implementing the mdct_unroll_lap() fn on the DSP Aug 20 22:55:59 so..I just got my tablet. I was trying to add 'Http://repository.maemo.org/' as a repository (thats where osso-xterm is supposed to be I thought) and it failed. I had to add /extras to the end. Is that the way its supposed to be, or is there something I'm missing? Aug 20 22:56:15 I would think you'd want mdct_backward also. Aug 20 22:56:25 As that's really the bulk of the work, IIRC. Aug 20 22:56:50 yep, didn't see where that was called from Aug 20 22:57:00 From mapping0.c Aug 20 22:57:49 vorbis_dsp_synthesis to mapping_inverse to mdct_backward. Aug 20 22:58:08 right, got it Aug 20 23:01:47 looking at _fetch_and_process_packet(), I need to encapsulate all of the dsp functions and whatever they call Aug 20 23:02:17 dsp even Aug 20 23:02:22 argh, markup Aug 20 23:02:51 whats better, dropbear or openssh on the 770? Aug 20 23:03:29 Darksmurf: dropbear only ever used to do scp, not sftp Aug 20 23:03:47 thanks Aug 20 23:06:40 lardman: Are you going to be releasing source for this at some point? Aug 20 23:06:48 of course Aug 20 23:06:52 well, i'm i licenced technician ham. Aug 20 23:07:11 not to be confused with a ham technician Aug 20 23:07:32 I may try to do something similar for Theora at some point, but I don't actually know anything about the N800's DSP. Aug 20 23:08:31 well I can help with that, though I've only learned as I've gone along Aug 20 23:08:42 an interesting pass-time Aug 20 23:08:44 Well, having a working example to cheat from is a big help. Aug 20 23:09:12 theora is slightly more difficult, because the n800 doesn't do direct framebuffer access from the DSP anymore Aug 20 23:09:16 I don;t know why Aug 20 23:09:38 Hardware scaling issues, maybe? Aug 20 23:09:47 a working example to cheat from is called scientific progress. Aug 20 23:09:47 with that said, there is no info about doing direct audio codec out either, but hopefully when a couple of codecs turn up (kulve is working on Speex) then Nokia will see the light Aug 20 23:10:22 derf: Not sure, but it's possible to map the framebuffer according to the docs, like the 770 did Aug 20 23:10:31 Luria: Exactly :) Aug 20 23:11:29 I've met a couple of the Nokia multimedia guys if you want me to try to ping them for help. Aug 20 23:12:13 I was sent some source for Tremor on the C55 by a chap from Fluendo, but thought I'd start out by learning the hard way Aug 20 23:12:37 Plus the code I was sent was not directly implementable, if that makes sense Aug 20 23:12:49 I meant help with info about doing direct audio out. Aug 20 23:13:05 But yes, if you can ask nicely for some headers/example code for audio out that would be very useful Aug 20 23:13:21 I have a bug for it, let me find the number Aug 20 23:13:26 i have 5 games that use ogg Aug 20 23:13:30 If you give me an e-mail address, I'll cc you. Aug 20 23:13:58 derf: s dot g dot pickering at bath dot ac dot uk Aug 20 23:14:14 pupnik: The more the merrier Aug 20 23:15:07 derf: Can the packet size be calculated at runtime? Aug 20 23:15:28 derf: and is it constant for all packets (I fear not)? Aug 20 23:15:33 You mean the maximum packet size? Aug 20 23:15:43 well more for a given file Aug 20 23:15:56 Right... in theory it would depend on the codebooks. Aug 20 23:16:00 so I can tell the ARM how much memory to reserve Aug 20 23:16:10 But I suspect it will not be much different from your "half a meg" estimate. Aug 20 23:16:31 The codebooks are large, but they only appear once don;t they? Aug 20 23:16:40 in the header? Aug 20 23:16:46 speaking of which - are there any in/out splitters for the noika 3.5mm jack? Aug 20 23:17:02 lardman: Yes, the codebooks only appear once. Aug 20 23:17:19 But I mean, if the VQ codebook has a 32-bit entry in it, presumably you could have a packet stuffed with those. Aug 20 23:17:50 derf: But I should be able to work out how large it will be to pass over, and say no if it's too big Aug 20 23:18:00 pass over to the DSP that is Aug 20 23:18:21 You can calculate the actual packet size from the data in the pages. Aug 20 23:18:46 But does that mean I need to scan the whole file before I can allocate memory, or is it in the header? Aug 20 23:18:59 It's different for every packet. Aug 20 23:19:08 hmm Aug 20 23:19:22 I now understand the talk on the mailing list about defining limits to the sizes Aug 20 23:19:43 Yeah, the spec is fairly unbounded. Aug 20 23:20:20 not the end of the world though, I can scan the file as I'm only writing some test code Aug 20 23:21:18 We had a similar problem when spec'ing out Theora: we weren't hardware people, and we had real trouble finding any who would give us input as to what reasonable limits would be. Aug 20 23:22:06 I suppose what one could do is see what common encoders produce, and see if there are any complaints about the decoder failing Aug 20 23:22:28 For Vorbis I believe that's what most people do. Aug 20 23:22:52 I think Monty also has some specially designed test files. Aug 20 23:23:22 hi folks. I'm having some trouble with my Bluetooth keyboard on the N800 - is this the right place to get help about such things? Aug 20 23:23:47 telexl: yes, ask away and see if anyone can help Aug 20 23:24:03 lardman: thanks. I'll ask. It's a bit technical. Aug 20 23:24:41 is there a way to enable hostusb w/o the flasher? Aug 20 23:24:44 My bluetooth keyboard is a Nokia SU-8W. It's supported, but the keymap is incomplete: when I press the '/" key, I get a blank key and the doublequote doesn't work at all. Aug 20 23:24:59 I was wondering if I could fix it and where hwkbd stores its configs. Aug 20 23:26:13 derf: hmm, looks like I need to define the mmap and/or buffer sizes at compile time for the DSP Aug 20 23:26:34 derf: so I'll try the 'most common sizes' approach Aug 20 23:27:03 telexl: You trawled through the mailing list archive? Aug 20 23:27:30 derf: Then implement the dsp functions on the DSP - the ogg_bitpack stuff looks reasonable Aug 20 23:27:31 lardman: no - I Googled for an answer and found the IRC logs for this channel. Someone mentioned xmodmap. Aug 20 23:27:58 lardman: I'm not sure where to look for help on these things - Nokia or Maemo.org? Aug 20 23:27:58 http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/ Aug 20 23:28:12 telexl: What's wrong with using xmodmap? Aug 20 23:28:28 jjazz: Nothing - I don't have it though, or can't find it. Aug 20 23:28:38 telexl: I packaged it. I can email it to you. Aug 20 23:28:39 * lardman takes a step back as he knows nothing about BT keyboards Aug 20 23:29:04 jjazz: thanks! brooknet (at) imap (dot) cc is my address. Aug 20 23:29:05 Keyboard config is usually in /usr/share/X11/xkb Aug 20 23:29:20 Not sure about on the N800. Aug 20 23:29:36 derf: Thanks. I'm logged in now and am looking at that dir. Aug 20 23:30:23 Also try /etc/X11/ Aug 20 23:30:38 at least on the Zaurus it used to live somewhere under /etc Aug 20 23:31:07 Great, this makes sense. Aug 20 23:31:14 derf: Thanks for your help, bed time Aug 20 23:31:17 Night all Aug 20 23:31:54 jjazz: don't suppose you have xev too? Aug 20 23:32:03 telexl: Of course. Aug 20 23:32:07 I'll send it with xmodmap Aug 20 23:32:26 jjazz: thank you kindly - that'd be very helpful. Aug 20 23:33:35 My name's Lex, by the way. Aug 20 23:33:36 telexl: Sent them to you. Aug 20 23:33:57 Mine's james. Aug 20 23:34:09 jjazz: Ta. I can do this all remotely.. cool Aug 20 23:34:56 I should really set up a repository for the maemo packages I build. Aug 20 23:35:30 jjazz: for what maemo do you package for? Aug 20 23:35:36 erstazi: n800 Aug 20 23:36:03 jjazz: ah, OS2007, well, I am looking at packaging PocketSphinx for both OS2006 and OS2007 Aug 20 23:36:20 I think that is something that no one else has done yet Aug 20 23:36:37 which is speech to text... Aug 20 23:36:54 erstazi: You realize that Sphinx isn't a full speech to text engine, right? Aug 20 23:37:11 jjazz: yes Aug 20 23:37:29 jjazz: but to get a full speech to text engine that is open source is hard to find Aug 20 23:37:52 erstazi: ok. I spent a lot of time at the cross section of linux and speech recognition and it's... depressing. Aug 20 23:37:54 I realize the limitations, especially the part about different languages and dialects Aug 20 23:38:05 jjazz and everyone, thanks for your help. I'm off now to answer mails and have some lunch. Aug 20 23:38:06 jjazz: yes, I realize that, and I feel the same Aug 20 23:38:10 telexl: Have fun. Aug 20 23:38:18 thanks! bye Aug 20 23:38:29 it is depressing, I think the first step is to promote the ones that are attempting speech to text Aug 20 23:38:42 erstazi: Sphinx for some simple voice command stuff would be very cool. Aug 20 23:38:47 yes exactly Aug 20 23:38:52 thats what I was aiming for Aug 20 23:39:24 Speaking of packaging things, has anybody packaged tomboy? I couldn't quite get the mono build environment working in scratchbox. Aug 20 23:39:25 jjazz: but before I attempt pocketsphinx, I want to understand hildonizing more heh, which is relearning gnome again Aug 20 23:40:00 erstazi: I don't claim to know anything about hildonizing apps. Aug 20 23:40:23 jjazz: not saying that you do, I just need to read up more Aug 20 23:41:17 hi, i was wondering if there is a pptp application for the n800? Aug 20 23:41:26 I looked at it briefly. There are some apps I might have a go at, but I've only had the device a few weeks, so for now I'm still soaking it in. Aug 20 23:41:57 jjazz: thats good, the maemo dev community is very active Aug 20 23:42:08 the maemo community as a whole is a great community Aug 20 23:42:40 I have been part of other *nix communities and usually there is too much infighting that nothing gets done Aug 20 23:43:03 erstazi: Yeah, seems like there's a lot of good work being done. It would be nice if we had a central repository for unofficial debs. I'm sort of hoping one emerges. Aug 20 23:43:12 but what I have found is, people who usually have a tablet are business orientated Aug 20 23:43:44 jjazz: well, I understand that and agree... Aug 20 23:44:16 I wish a lot of packages could be merged into extras with the maemo repo Aug 20 23:45:18 erstazi: I can understand why Nokia doesn't want to host all those packages. What's needed is a third-party host that's generally trusted, has some procedures in place for vetting package maintainers, etc. Aug 20 23:45:39 jjazz: I think thats what maemo.org is for Aug 20 23:46:26 erstazi: Are they vetting packages in any way at maemo.org? Aug 20 23:46:28 jjazz: and nokia supports maemo... but people who put up their own repos probably found the issue probably of including into the repos of maemo Aug 20 23:46:34 jjazz: some are Aug 20 23:46:48 erstazi: I didn't realize. Aug 20 23:48:09 jjazz: yeah, it goes through a process Aug 20 23:48:44 jjazz: let me grab my info first before speaking on it Aug 20 23:49:04 s'ok. I can go read the maemo.org website. Aug 20 23:49:42 basically, for applications that are still in development and not yet end-user ready they go to ApplicationCatalogWip. Aug 20 23:50:05 some are planned and then there is a wishlist also Aug 20 23:50:35 jjazz: for project hosting use the Garage Aug 20 23:50:43 (garage.maemo.org) Aug 20 23:54:42 erstazi: Ah. I see garage projects can be included in the extras repo at their invitation. Aug 20 23:54:58 So it's not as bleak as I thought. But still, the repository lacks too many apps. Aug 20 23:58:05 jjazz: well some apps would be too complex to port Aug 20 23:58:20 mainly because they would consume too much power or ram Aug 20 23:58:23 or space Aug 20 23:58:34 like I was surprised to see vncviewer as a working app Aug 20 23:58:59 I use it sometimes to play games on my windows box (I primarily use Linux everything but games) Aug 20 23:59:18 but I use vncviewer and rdesktop a lot with my work Aug 20 23:59:39 ncxlient would be a fun project Aug 20 23:59:40 and it surprises me that they are both working applications Aug 20 23:59:45 nxclient? Aug 20 23:59:51 freenx Aug 20 23:59:57 oh yeah Aug 20 23:59:59 I use that as well Aug 21 00:00:19 has it been ported? Aug 21 00:00:23 not that I know of Aug 21 00:00:26 but it could have been Aug 21 00:00:35 there are people who port that do not join on IRC Aug 21 00:00:48 and are not on the mailing list or a member of garage on maemo Aug 21 00:01:06 I know of some bloggers that post about their ports Aug 21 00:01:41 pupnik: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78 Aug 21 00:01:47 I am supposing that its a bug, then yes Aug 21 00:02:38 nevermind Aug 21 00:02:57 thats using nxclient on a linux pc Aug 21 00:03:32 Fabian was the one who reported the bug Aug 21 00:08:56 i am forcing myself to not look into this Aug 21 00:10:11 see the maemo-developers list in google... some info there Aug 21 00:17:06 anyone using bdb on maemo? Aug 21 00:17:20 does anyone know if they carry the n800 at fry's electronic? Aug 21 00:23:18 fry's employees Aug 21 00:24:35 alternatively you could just do a search at frys.com where it appears they do not carry the n800 Aug 21 00:29:07 to be precise the answer to "does anyone know..." is always yes, no or maybe :) Aug 21 00:31:17 is it possible to connect to a network that requires a static IP address? Aug 21 00:31:29 i want to get all of my questions answered before i go buy one after work haha Aug 21 00:31:29 yes Aug 21 00:31:42 ok cool, i have to connect to a static IP and DNS server Aug 21 00:32:54 i used to work at fry's and we sold the 770, but i haven't bothered looking since the n800 came out :-/ Aug 21 00:35:41 the only advice I can give about buying is to get one from an authorized reseller Aug 21 01:07:03 application request: badger-mushroom bootloader Aug 21 01:12:26 What's the best way to use youtube with n800? Aug 21 01:12:45 uktube i think Aug 21 01:14:02 thanks. second, is there any recent progress on video with skype? Aug 21 01:14:52 i don't know Aug 21 01:15:19 maybe it would be possible to use gstreamer to send video to a skype server PC Aug 21 01:18:31 where does skype come from? who tracks call connections? Aug 21 01:18:31 just got the n800 and impressed by the capabilities, but it would be so nice to fix these issues :D Aug 21 01:19:00 i think uktube is robust - otherwise you can download youtube videos with the python script youtube-dl Aug 21 01:20:59 well, what i was thinking of was an interface between google video talk, which the n800 does, and skype Aug 21 01:22:25 hey all Aug 21 01:23:20 what's new Luria? Aug 21 01:23:46 nothing, finally took that ham test. Aug 21 01:23:54 now i can play with transceivers Aug 21 01:24:19 Luria whats your call? de kd5uzz Aug 21 01:24:21 and figure out a way to exploit my nokia w/respect to that Aug 21 01:24:32 just have a csce Aug 21 01:24:39 ah Aug 21 01:24:47 i only took it 3 hours ago Aug 21 01:24:55 well..good job! Aug 21 01:25:01 it was silly, i should have gone for more than technician Aug 21 01:25:15 i finished the test in 5 minutes Aug 21 01:25:26 there is a yahoo group: hildonham where they are talking about APRS + n800 Aug 21 01:25:40 i want to find a splitter for the mic jack Aug 21 01:25:53 Luria usually you can take the gen as long as you passed the tech..no extra charge Aug 21 01:25:58 it would be nice to make a cw transcriber Aug 21 01:26:33 i know, but i hadnt opened the material. the physics/ee stuff isnt usually problematic, but i dont know the extra regulatory stuff Aug 21 01:26:50 ill try for gen/extra in one sitting in a month or two Aug 21 01:26:59 Luria well, you got your csce and I got my 770... bonus for both of us :-) Aug 21 01:27:27 well, since i already had an frn, i expect the registration to be quick Aug 21 01:27:31 has anyone had experience with video calling on n800? Aug 21 01:27:51 wnt5, yes. specific question? Aug 21 01:28:16 how can I tell what version of IT2006 I have? Aug 21 01:28:30 i think its in the control panel Aug 21 01:28:34 Luria, do regular desktop PC' Aug 21 01:28:47 Luria, do regular desktop PC's support the video call software? Aug 21 01:28:53 (gtalk or whatever it is) Aug 21 01:29:06 not anymore - there was a beta that was discontinued. Aug 21 01:30:01 Darksmurf, control panel/about product Aug 21 01:30:10 okay, is there anything else that would do something like that? Aug 21 01:30:17 as for 3rd party stuff, i dunno Aug 21 01:30:44 i found a project that uses gstreamer to stream video on a quicktime server Aug 21 01:31:00 Luria thanks Aug 21 01:31:44 so the challenge would be getting this to talk to a regular video/voip client Aug 21 01:32:37 Darksmurf, what license do you have? Aug 21 01:40:28 anyone know how to make gnugo not take so damned long to make a move? Aug 21 01:40:39 i can never play a game vs. cpu in cgoban because every move takes like 2 minutes Aug 21 01:40:40 cool, my fresh from the box 770 already has the latest version of OS2006 on it. Aug 21 01:41:08 yeah, they usually do these days Aug 21 01:41:22 we got a new one about a month ago and it was .39 Aug 21 01:42:31 how do I get the thumb keyboard to show up? Aug 21 01:42:58 typically, hit the center of the dpad when the vkb is up Aug 21 01:43:16 or, use a wider amount of thumb when clicking on a text field Aug 21 01:43:36 are there any "standard" (i.e. orderable from 3rd parties like radio shack or real suplly houses) in/out splitters for the nokia 3.5mm jack? Aug 21 01:44:12 Luria radioshack has them for ~$8 Aug 21 01:44:35 like the 4 ring jack? Aug 21 01:44:42 i mean the whole thing? Aug 21 01:44:58 so there is hope to make an automatic CW program? Aug 21 01:45:16 does the n800 use a 4 conductor connector? Aug 21 01:45:20 or the 770? Aug 21 01:45:21 <_Monkey> i guess the 770 is running OS 2006. And that you can upgrade to 2007. Is it worth the trouble? Aug 21 01:45:24 yes Aug 21 01:45:31 its an extended mini jack Aug 21 01:46:41 hmm..I didn't know that. I thought they were both standard 3.5mm. RS sells a 4 conductor to headphone adaptor..I can't remember if the a 4 conductor 3.5 or 2.5. And I doubt all 4 wires are sent to the 3.5 stereo send. Aug 21 01:47:18 finding a replacement hk-48 (iirc thats the model number) is a PITA Aug 21 01:47:30 (err, the headset model number) Aug 21 01:47:36 dont lose it Aug 21 01:47:58 the flagship nokia store in nyc doesnt even have an sku for it Aug 21 01:48:57 does the thumb kb work inm opera? Aug 21 01:49:11 yes, but it will obscure the page Aug 21 01:49:42 I got it to come up in the control panel Time and Date app. but not in opera Aug 21 01:50:06 that's odd... but i dont have a 770 (yet), only an n800 Aug 21 02:21:11 anyone tried using something like this on an n800? Aug 21 02:21:12 http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=29686&doy=21m8&C=SO&U=strat15 Aug 21 02:25:08 When I use the flasher to enable usb host mode on the 770 am I going to loose any data/installed apps? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Aug 21 02:59:56 2007