**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 06 02:59:56 2007
Oct 06 05:14:14 <Blacksitox> bye
Oct 06 05:20:55 <zoran> hm, no priv messages on freenode
Oct 06 06:33:25 <if> good morning everyone, can I get little help about installing sb2 ?
Oct 06 08:58:14 <sujan> Hi all
Oct 06 08:58:42 <pupnik> hi
Oct 06 08:58:42 <_Monkey> bonjour, pupnik
Oct 06 09:00:38 * pupnik ponders about how to bring up user dialogue during package install
Oct 06 09:04:02 <kpel> hi guys
Oct 06 09:04:37 <pupnik> hi
Oct 06 09:05:24 <pupnik> thanks to Dawnmist for finding how to activate exec on mmc/sd
Oct 06 09:06:13 <kpel> pupnik, do u have a url?
Oct 06 09:06:14 <pupnik>  and the guys who wrote the maemo.org/development docs
Oct 06 09:07:24 <kpel> the devel docs are great. i was looking at them yesterday.
Oct 06 09:08:40 <pupnik> kpel see /usr/sbin/mmc-mount
Oct 06 09:17:34 <czr> does the dhcp-client communicate with dbus on N800?
Oct 06 09:40:25 <sujan> Hi
Oct 06 09:43:00 <kpel> pupnik, thanks
Oct 06 09:43:17 <kpel> hi sujan
Oct 06 09:43:42 <sujan> i am facing a problem kpel
Oct 06 09:44:00 <sujan> I have build a debian package but when i try to install it on N800 , it shows depends on hildon-fmmm,dev-sqlite
Oct 06 09:45:14 <sujan> can you please give me a solution?
Oct 06 09:51:25 <kpel> sujan, no idea. i am really new to the maemo platform :\
Oct 06 09:52:23 <sujan> Its ok, kpel
Oct 06 09:56:00 <czr> mornin koen
Oct 06 09:57:10 <koen> hey czr
Oct 06 09:59:16 <czr> anyone have a minimal terminfo for just xterm?
Oct 06 09:59:19 <pupnik_> sujan: if the package really doesn't need those, edit the debian/control file to remove those dependencies, then re build
Oct 06 10:00:03 <sujan> package need those
Oct 06 10:00:27 <pupnik> then you need to install them
Oct 06 10:00:29 <sujan> because I have used sqlite3
Oct 06 10:00:50 <sujan> manually in N800?
Oct 06 10:02:00 <pupnik> if the packages upon which your app depends are not in your repositories, then yes manually
Oct 06 10:02:49 <sujan> Is there any way that it will install dependencies automatically during installation of my package?
Oct 06 10:04:32 <pupnik> yes you can make your own ftp repository, or submit dependencies to an official repository
Oct 06 10:04:36 <pupnik> mud-builder?
Oct 06 10:04:41 <pupnik> mudbuilder?
Oct 06 10:04:43 <sujan> because I am going to deliver it to somebody, who does not know how to install sqlite or hildon-fmmm
Oct 06 10:04:45 <pupnik> maybe that could help
Oct 06 10:05:37 <pupnik> another option would be to add the libraries to your package
Oct 06 10:06:16 <sujan> ya, adding libraries is better, i think
Oct 06 10:06:37 <sujan> Can you help me, how can I do that
Oct 06 10:07:54 <pupnik> dunno
Oct 06 10:08:06 <sujan> i have used     dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot   command to make package
Oct 06 10:17:06 <sujan> pupnik: Ok Pupnik, thanks for your help
Oct 06 10:19:48 <pupnik> look in the debian/rules directory
Oct 06 11:18:05 <opy> good morning (~ugt)
Oct 06 11:18:29 <opy> Pupnik : are you here!!
Oct 06 11:18:46 <pupnik> ya
Oct 06 11:23:02 <opy> Pupnik : I got error when   "fakeroot apt-get install maemo-explicit" in armel . Would you like to give me any solution?
Oct 06 11:23:28 <opy> dor maemo 2.2
Oct 06 11:23:32 <opy> for
Oct 06 11:23:37 <pupnik> last time i asked you a questino about this you did not answer me
Oct 06 11:24:24 <pupnik> or maybe i missed your answer
Oct 06 11:24:39 <pupnik> what is maemo-explicit?
Oct 06 11:25:10 <czr> pupnik, pseudopackage pulling the closed source binaries from nokia
Oct 06 11:25:22 <czr> what has replaced kdbusd?
Oct 06 11:25:34 <pupnik> ah interesting
Oct 06 11:25:37 <czr> I see that it's not on either N800 nor in 3.2 sdk.
Oct 06 11:25:42 <pupnik> what happens whtn you apt-cache search maemo-explicit?
Oct 06 11:26:33 <opy> oh sorry.
Oct 06 11:27:36 <zuh> czr: Maybe ke-recv?
Oct 06 11:27:57 <zuh> Though I'm not sure what kdbusd does...
Oct 06 11:28:14 <czr> it was a light-weight wrapper for kernel -> object/uevents -> dbus
Oct 06 11:28:19 <opy> it is package installation command from repository for maemo 3.1
Oct 06 11:28:19 <czr> (to system dbus)
Oct 06 11:28:56 <czr> zuh, I can only see ke-recv-l10n-engb and ke-recv-l10n-mr1 packages in the sdk, am I looking in the right place?
Oct 06 11:29:07 <czr> (sdk = apt-cache search in sdk)
Oct 06 11:29:25 <czr> ah, I see two processes/threads of ke-recv running on the device.
Oct 06 11:29:30 <zuh> I doubt it's in the sdk
Oct 06 11:29:38 <zuh> since it's pretty device-specific
Oct 06 11:29:49 <czr> zuh, figures, thanks.
Oct 06 11:29:59 <czr> is there any spec about the stuff that it puts on dbus?
Oct 06 11:30:26 <zuh> but it is in the nokia binaries tarball if you really want to ogle at the package (no sources of course)
Oct 06 11:30:44 <czr> zuh, neh, no source is no good for me
Oct 06 11:31:02 <czr> this is enough, I assume the basic role is still the same though?
Oct 06 11:32:09 <zuh> Yeah, AFAIK it's just for screaming dbus messages when hw events occur
Oct 06 11:33:14 <czr> right. will do some research, thanks.
Oct 06 11:33:16 <zuh> And it's one of those packages that even nokians seem to think that are so trivial that it's silly it's not open source. (and yet it is not...)
Oct 06 11:33:27 <czr> kdbusd was open in 1.1 (at least)
Oct 06 11:33:36 <zuh> Or so I remember reading from maemo-devel lists
Oct 06 11:33:44 * czr nods
Oct 06 11:35:31 <czr> another silly question. what is the role of the dbus-vfs-daemon? it has it's own socket (@/dbus-vfs-daemon/socket-foobar)?
Oct 06 11:35:56 <zuh> That I don't know
Oct 06 11:36:31 <opy> Pupnik : I got this W: Couldn't stat source package list http://repository.maemo.org gregale/free Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras_dists_gregale_free_binary-arm_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory)
Oct 06 11:36:31 <opy> W: Couldn't stat source package list http://repository.maemo.org gregale/non-free Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras_dists_gregale_non-free_binary-arm_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) for apt-cache  showpkg
Oct 06 11:36:40 <czr> zuh, np :-)
Oct 06 11:36:57 <czr> hmm. I guess netstat doesn't know about netlink sockets then, meh.
Oct 06 11:37:36 <zuh> opy: seems like you haven't run 'apt-get update' or it hasn't succeeded
Oct 06 11:41:49 <opy> I run apt-get update but it  hasn't succeeded
Oct 06 11:43:23 <pupnik> aha now we getting somewhere
Oct 06 11:43:37 <pupnik> nsswitch
Oct 06 11:43:38 <czr> hmm. any way to find out all the anonymous pipes in the system and which processes are holding them open?
Oct 06 11:43:38 <opy> Zuh : after 'apt-get update' i got Hit http://repository.maemo.org gregale/free Packages
Oct 06 11:43:38 <opy> Hit http://repository.maemo.org gregale/free Release
Oct 06 11:43:38 <opy> Hit http://repository.maemo.org gregale/non-free Packages
Oct 06 11:43:38 <opy> Hit http://repository.maemo.org gregale/non-free Release
Oct 06 11:43:38 <opy> Hit http://repository.maemo.org gregale/free Sources
Oct 06 11:43:38 <_Monkey> nsswitch is http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get
Oct 06 11:43:39 <opy> Ign http://repository.maemo.org gregale/free Release
Oct 06 11:43:41 <opy> Hit http://repository.maemo.org gregale/non-free Sources
Oct 06 11:43:43 <opy> Ign http://repository.maemo.org gregale/non-free Release
Oct 06 11:43:45 <opy> Err http://repository.maemo.org gregale/free Packages
Oct 06 11:43:46 <pupnik> nsswitch
Oct 06 11:43:47 <opy>   404 Not Found [IP: 60.254.154.72 80]
Oct 06 11:43:47 <_Monkey> nsswitch is http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get
Oct 06 11:43:49 <opy> Ign http://repository.maemo.org gregale/free Release
Oct 06 11:43:51 <opy> Err http://repository.maemo.org gregale/non-free Packages
Oct 06 11:43:51 <pupnik> nsswitch
Oct 06 11:43:52 <_Monkey> nsswitch is, like, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get
Oct 06 11:43:53 <pupnik> nsswitch
Oct 06 11:43:54 <_Monkey> nsswitch is http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get
Oct 06 11:43:55 <pupnik> nsswitch
Oct 06 11:43:55 <opy>   404 Not Found [IP: 60.254.154.72 80]
Oct 06 11:43:55 <_Monkey> nsswitch is http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get
Oct 06 11:43:56 <pupnik> nsswitch
Oct 06 11:43:57 <_Monkey> nsswitch is http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get
Oct 06 11:43:57 <opy> Ign http://repository.maemo.org gregale/non-free Release
Oct 06 11:43:58 <pupnik> nsswitch
Oct 06 11:43:58 <xand> sigh
Oct 06 11:43:59 <_Monkey> i think nsswitch is http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get
Oct 06 11:43:59 <opy> Get:1 http://repository.maemo.org gregale/free Sources [11.1kB]
Oct 06 11:44:01 <pupnik> nsswitch
Oct 06 11:44:01 <opy> Ign http://repository.maemo.org gregale/free Release
Oct 06 11:44:01 <_Monkey> well, nsswitch is http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get
Oct 06 11:44:04 <opy> Get:2 http://repository.maemo.org gregale/non-free Sources [20B]
Oct 06 11:44:07 <opy> Ign http://repository.maemo.org gregale/non-free Release
Oct 06 11:44:09 <pupnik> nsswitch
Oct 06 11:44:10 <_Monkey> nsswitch is http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get
Oct 06 11:44:10 <opy> Fetched 11.1kB in 36s (306B/s)
Oct 06 11:44:12 <pupnik> nsswitch
Oct 06 11:44:13 <_Monkey> rumour has it nsswitch is http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get
Oct 06 11:44:13 <opy> Failed to fetch http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/gregale/free/binary-arm/Packages.gz  404 Not Found [IP: 60.254.154.72 80]
Oct 06 11:44:13 <xand> opy: do you mind?
Oct 06 11:44:16 <opy> Failed to fetch http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/gregale/non-free/binary-arm/Packages.gz  404 Not Found [IP: 60.254.154.72 80]
Oct 06 11:44:19 <opy> Reading Package Lists... Done
Oct 06 11:44:21 <opy> W: Couldn't stat source package list http://repository.maemo.org gregale/free Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras_dists_gregale_free_binary-arm_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory)
Oct 06 11:44:26 <opy> W: Couldn't stat source package list http://repository.maemo.org gregale/non-free Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras_dists_gregale_non-free_binary-arm_Packages) - stat (2 No
Oct 06 11:44:43 <opy> ha ha ha
Oct 06 11:44:50 * czr looks at pupnik with an evil glint in his eyes
Oct 06 11:44:50 <zuh> Holy copy&paste accident, please don't do that again :)
Oct 06 11:44:51 <xand> pastebin ffs
Oct 06 11:45:15 <czr> did anyone notice my question even? :-)
Oct 06 11:45:27 <czr> (not very maemo/device specific even)
Oct 06 11:46:57 <opy> pupnik: is it 'hosts:           http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=scratchbox+nsswitch+apt-get'
Oct 06 11:47:45 <czr> I had the same snag with 3.2 (and 4.0b) because of feisty having avahi and that pulling mdns NSS module into nsswitch.conf
Oct 06 11:53:57 <czr> hmm. there doesn't seem to be any interface from the userspace to get the open pipe listing.
Oct 06 11:58:43 <pupnik> sorry, looking at ./debian/* and configure/make stuff PISSES ME OFF
Oct 06 11:59:49 <czr> ok, another question then. is there a package I can install into the ARMEL SDK that contains the necesary kernel headers for the device kernel?
Oct 06 12:00:18 <czr> (running the latest firmware, so I'm assuming the kernel header packages should be per user-image release, right?)
Oct 06 12:08:31 <zuh> If you are talking about N800, rx-34-kernel-headers
Oct 06 12:09:49 <czr> zuh, yes I am. but how are the differing kernel versions handled then?
Oct 06 12:10:02 <czr> (case the newest user firmware that fixed the memory card stuff)
Oct 06 12:12:06 <zuh> I doubt that made any difference on the kernel headers... But you could probably install a specific version of the headers with "apt-get install package=version".
Oct 06 12:12:44 <czr> zuh, even if apt-cache search kernel-headers only lists 'linux-kernel-headers' and 'rx-34-kernel-headers'?
Oct 06 12:13:10 <czr> hmm. I'll see shortly
Oct 06 12:14:41 <zuh> but what differences you are referring to? AFAIK nokia only supports one image at a time (the lates) and the repositories follow that
Oct 06 12:15:08 <czr> just thinking of writing a module, that would work on N800, that's all :-)
Oct 06 12:15:29 <czr> I've been out of action since 770 came out, so trying to refresh on stuff that might have changed since.
Oct 06 12:17:35 <czr> still a bit unsure how the ke-recv interfaces dbus though
Oct 06 12:17:47 <czr> unless it only opens the dbus connection when there is an event to report
Oct 06 12:20:42 <czr> let's see.
Oct 06 12:22:02 <kpel> is the source of the kernel running on N800 available?
Oct 06 12:24:33 <zuh> yes, 'apt-get install kernel-source-rx-34' or look in http://repository.maemo.org/pool/bora/free/source/
Oct 06 12:26:14 <kpel> thanks zuh
Oct 06 12:30:42 <czr> meh. strace is having problems decoding connect()..
Oct 06 12:31:01 <Blacksitox> hi :)
Oct 06 12:31:56 <czr> also, the way that ke-recv interfaces with the kernel is weird :-)
Oct 06 12:32:12 <czr> it gets an unix stream socket form the kernel and it seems that it gets the messages over that.
Oct 06 12:32:18 <czr> but I'm having trouble seeing what happens after that.
Oct 06 12:39:17 <czr> zuh, I guess the reason why ke-recv is now closed is that it contains binary decoding for the mce stuff coming from the kernel side
Oct 06 12:39:31 <czr> the old kdbusd didn't (it only forwarded uevents)
Oct 06 13:01:26 <czr> zuh, the kernel-headers is not kernel-headers as we know it
Oct 06 13:01:31 <czr> scripts is missing
Oct 06 13:01:37 <czr> not possible to build modules against it for example.
Oct 06 13:01:45 * czr curses silently.
Oct 06 13:02:48 <czr> also other stuff missing, like arch-specific Makefile, etc..
Oct 06 13:07:05 <alterego> You can download the whole source tree.
Oct 06 13:07:40 <czr> alterego, that wasn't the point really.
Oct 06 13:09:44 <czr> alterego, point being: why have a kernel header package if it cannot be used for anything.
Oct 06 13:11:11 <alterego> Yes,
Oct 06 13:11:16 <alterego> I understand that
Oct 06 13:14:07 <GeneralAntilles> Ha, awesome, new firmware and now I can't install rtcom or microb
Oct 06 13:18:42 <alterego> Uh-oh
Oct 06 13:18:55 <alterego> You mean the SDHC kernel update?
Oct 06 13:19:00 <GeneralAntilles> Yes.
Oct 06 13:19:20 <alterego> Interesting. They said only that had changed :)
Oct 06 13:19:36 <alterego> Though .. You shouldn't have had to reflash the whole device .. Just the kernel ..
Oct 06 13:19:46 <GeneralAntilles> I was in a reboot-loop
Oct 06 13:19:49 <GeneralAntilles> so I had to reflash
Oct 06 13:19:54 <alterego> Oh, nasty
Oct 06 13:20:06 <alterego> I've never had that.
Oct 06 13:20:23 <GeneralAntilles> Not an enjoyable experience.
Oct 06 13:20:29 <alterego> Well, something similar, but just taking out the battery for a few seconds and then turning it on again fixed it.
Oct 06 13:22:11 <GeneralAntilles> Finally get a grandcentral invite and the N800 stops being functionally useful. <_<
Oct 06 13:22:21 <alterego> O_o
Oct 06 13:22:29 <alterego> What's a "Grandcentral invite"?
Oct 06 13:22:51 <alterego> Is that like meeting the queen? ^_^
Oct 06 13:22:53 <GeneralAntilles> http://grandcentral.com/home/intro
Oct 06 13:23:03 <GeneralAntilles> It's a callforwarding service from Google
Oct 06 13:23:24 <GeneralAntilles> Caller rings a number they assign you, and it gets forwarded to up to 3 other lines.
Oct 06 13:24:31 <alterego> Cool.
Oct 06 13:24:35 <alterego> V0IP?
Oct 06 13:25:13 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, I was planning on setting up my Gizmo account with the SIP client
Oct 06 13:26:17 <alterego> Nice
Oct 06 13:26:35 <alterego> Do you have any SDHC cards? I've not bothered updating my N800 yet.
Oct 06 13:26:41 <GeneralAntilles> Not yet
Oct 06 13:26:45 <alterego> Figure I might as well wait until the next proper release.
Oct 06 13:26:49 <GeneralAntilles> waiting for the 16GB cards to come down.
Oct 06 13:26:58 <alterego> I've got 2x 2Gb SD cards that are fine for now.
Oct 06 13:27:00 <GeneralAntilles> I was going to wait, but the reboot-loop forced me into it
Oct 06 13:27:16 <GeneralAntilles> Evidently Nokia can't roll out a simple kernel patch without breaking everything. . . . :(
Oct 06 13:27:38 <alterego> :)
Oct 06 13:27:58 <sx|lappy> huhu
Oct 06 13:28:23 <alterego> I need to figure out how to setup a PAN between my N800 and a WinXP machine ..
Oct 06 13:28:34 <alterego> Where the WinXP machine is the host with internet connection sharing ..
Oct 06 13:30:31 <GeneralAntilles> Well, I guess I'll reflash again without restoring from backup.
Oct 06 13:31:45 <kpel> alterego, u need to offer the DUN service on the pc if u want  to use bluetooth. or use wifi and make the pc the gateway for the n800
Oct 06 13:32:15 <alterego> Yeah, no wifi on this particular machine. Hence this trouble.
Oct 06 13:32:25 <alterego> The BT adapter uses the standard Windows BT stack ..
Oct 06 13:32:36 <alterego> There doesn't appear to be a way to setup PAN or DUN
Oct 06 13:32:56 <kpel> has anyone managed to login to maemo from a n800?
Oct 06 13:33:44 <kpel> alterego, u need extra sw. search for DUN for windows
Oct 06 13:35:14 <kpel> the stack is not enough, u need the server too. in linux i think it's called dund.
Oct 06 13:37:08 <alterego> Yeah, I can do it in Linux.
Oct 06 13:37:19 <alterego> But this is someone elses machine that runs XP homo.
Oct 06 13:37:40 <kpel> homo indeed ;p
Oct 06 13:38:07 <czr> human oriented mechanistic obsession?
Oct 06 13:38:50 <czr> reminds me of the vista advert that I saw (just yesterday). it was way too funny (N800 chocked on the flash video though).
Oct 06 13:39:28 <czr> (OT & probably quite old: http://www.mikesplanet.net/2007/10/the-vista-commerical-you-will-want-to-see/ )
Oct 06 13:40:20 <kpel> alterego, www.magsys.co.uk/dunman
Oct 06 13:40:58 <kpel> let us know if it works
Oct 06 13:49:25 <GeneralAntilles> Well, has anybody else with the new firmware been able to install either microb or rtcom?
Oct 06 13:49:35 <GeneralAntilles> Another reflash didn't change the situtation.
Oct 06 13:57:33 <zuh> I'm running microb with 4.2007.26-8, dunno if thats "new firmware" as it's pretty old
Oct 06 13:57:48 <alterego> Hahah
Oct 06 13:59:33 <GeneralAntilles> "new firmware" is 4.2007.38-2
Oct 06 14:02:46 <zuh> hmm, I thought I had the latest... *shrug*
Oct 06 14:05:04 <czr> anyone managed to succesfully use the kernel-source package to build out of tree modules that load in N800?
Oct 06 14:06:06 <zuh> o/
Oct 06 14:06:16 <zuh> I rebuilt the wlan driver
Oct 06 14:06:23 <czr> zuh, it's out-of-tree?
Oct 06 14:06:26 <zuh> yeah
Oct 06 14:06:44 <czr> hmm. I'm building the kernel now, since it seems that make prepare isn't enough to make the tree proper
Oct 06 14:06:52 <czr> kbuild complaining about missing modules.symvers
Oct 06 14:07:00 <czr> and scripts/bin/something missing.
Oct 06 14:07:41 <czr> whee. lo and behind. the out-of-tree module build snow
Oct 06 14:07:44 <czr> builds now even.
Oct 06 14:07:48 <czr> behold even too!
Oct 06 14:08:32 <czr> "[108952.505798] Hello, world"
Oct 06 14:09:09 <czr> I still think the kernel-headers package should be fixed so that it would be enough to built out of tree stuff like in any other distro.
Oct 06 14:10:10 <zuh> As if anything worked on maemo like in any other distro
Oct 06 14:10:17 <czr> :-)
Oct 06 14:10:32 <czr> 3.2 isn't as bad as 1.0 though.
Oct 06 14:10:37 <alterego> Hopefully that aspect is getting better :)
Oct 06 14:10:40 <czr> fewer snags so far.
Oct 06 14:10:51 <czr> different snags, but I guess fewer. so far.
Oct 06 14:10:59 <alterego> I'm getting endless segfaults from cputrans though
Oct 06 14:11:10 <alterego> I never used to .. Starting to wonder if it's not my system ..
Oct 06 14:11:23 <czr> of course it's not not your system
Oct 06 14:11:29 <alterego> :)
Oct 06 14:11:44 <czr> qemu code quality is perfect. it cannot fail. ever.
Oct 06 14:11:50 <alterego> Heh
Oct 06 14:12:09 <zuh> sbrsh ftw
Oct 06 14:12:20 <zuh> though it fails in certain things too
Oct 06 14:12:50 <czr> I'm just using ssh to the thing and copying stuff over there when I need to test on the device
Oct 06 14:13:05 <alterego> Sure, I do a lot of testing on the device.
Oct 06 14:13:07 <czr> except for stuff that runs in the sdk.
Oct 06 14:13:18 <alterego> But I'd like to test on my workstation whilst I'm actually developing code.
Oct 06 14:13:28 * czr nods
Oct 06 14:13:34 <czr> I'd like an open-top bmw
Oct 06 14:13:41 <alterego> Meh.
Oct 06 14:13:54 <czr> not that it would be any use here. but still.
Oct 06 14:14:02 <alterego> :)
Oct 06 14:14:45 <alterego> So, anyone know whether chinook is going to be IT2008? or 2007-2 ?
Oct 06 14:15:00 <czr> hmm. at least now the kernel thing is tested. so I'll probably wrote a module that will dump more info about sockets and pipes later in order to find out how all the pieces are related
Oct 06 14:15:28 <alterego> Any more discovery on the random HTTP server?
Oct 06 14:15:34 <czr> alterego, didn't work on that
Oct 06 14:15:43 <alterego> I vaguely remember something about this but I can't think what it is/was ..
Oct 06 14:15:49 <czr> have more concrete issues to solve atm.
Oct 06 14:16:00 <czr> like figuring out all the components of d-bus in the device
Oct 06 14:16:09 <alterego> I'd love that ;)
Oct 06 14:16:17 <czr> heh
Oct 06 14:16:22 <alterego> The whole system/session DBus service API would be awesome.
Oct 06 14:16:25 <czr> also noticed that strace on the device doesn't work properly.
Oct 06 14:16:34 <czr> doesn't decode all the syscalls properly.
Oct 06 14:16:55 <czr> and it's already heavily patched by osso
Oct 06 14:17:11 <alterego> You should post some of this stuff on the mailing lists. I'm sure the folks at nokia would like to see everything working properly and stable ;)
Oct 06 14:17:29 <czr> heh
Oct 06 14:17:39 <czr> I might later on, when I get the current stuff out of the way
Oct 06 14:17:39 <alterego> I completely agree with the linux-headers package issue. I tried compiling fuse and sshfs but obviously couldn't because the package is broken.
Oct 06 14:18:07 <alterego> I didn't bother investigating it further. Though I may do in the future.
Oct 06 14:18:41 <alterego> I'm kind of in a rush to get ruby-maemo completely out of the door.
Oct 06 14:19:00 <czr> you can also throw it out of the window
Oct 06 14:19:29 <alterego> You like throwing things out of the window don't you ;)
Oct 06 14:19:50 <czr> alterego, I need to implement couple of tools to aid the research stuff, and I won't have time for that at least for couple of weeks
Oct 06 14:20:04 <czr> and depending on what I'll find more interesting at that point, can't make promises :-)
Oct 06 14:20:19 <czr> alterego, it's the fastest solution to most problems most of the time..
Oct 06 14:20:29 <alterego> Hah
Oct 06 14:20:43 <alterego> I'm dreaming that there's svideo out ..
Oct 06 14:21:06 <alterego> Again something I was going to look into but ruby-maemo is taking over my life right now outside of work ^_^
Oct 06 14:50:22 <gopi|iPhone> /join #openmoko
Oct 06 14:50:42 <gopi|iPhone> /foo
Oct 06 14:57:51 <pupnikbeer> mudbuilder?
Oct 06 14:57:56 <pupnikbeer> mud-builder?
Oct 06 15:00:49 <pupnikbeer> _Monkey, mud-builder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/index.php  Forum at http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10279
Oct 06 15:00:50 <_Monkey> OK, pupnikbeer.
Oct 06 15:01:11 <pupnikbeer> _Monkey, mudbuilder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/index.php  Forum at http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10279
Oct 06 15:01:11 <_Monkey> OK, pupnikbeer.
Oct 06 15:01:35 <zoran> there is a chance you talk to the bot
Oct 06 15:07:44 <pupnikbeer> yes i teach the bot zoran
Oct 06 15:07:58 <pupnikbeer> normally i do it in privmsg but maybe Jaffa is around to see it
Oct 06 15:09:01 <pupnikbeer> i would gladly help with documentation but i do not yet understand it
Oct 06 15:09:10 <zoran> he-he
Oct 06 15:09:12 <pupnikbeer> maybe it just needs some more 'edge case' handling
Oct 06 15:09:35 <zoran> what bot, of not a secret?
Oct 06 15:09:53 <pupnikbeer> _Monkey is a bot
Oct 06 15:09:58 <pupnikbeer> hi _Monkey
Oct 06 15:10:03 <pupnikbeer> _Monkey: hi
Oct 06 15:10:03 <_Monkey> privet, pupnikbeer
Oct 06 15:10:12 <zoran> no, I meant what is the software?
Oct 06 15:10:13 <czr> uu, it knows languages too
Oct 06 15:10:23 <pupnikbeer> mud-builder?
Oct 06 15:10:24 <_Monkey> mud-builder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/index.php  Forum at http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10279
Oct 06 15:10:43 <celesteh> _Monkey?
Oct 06 15:10:43 <_Monkey> celesteh?
Oct 06 15:10:43 <pupnikbeer> custom made i think
Oct 06 15:10:54 <celesteh> _Monkey: _Monkey?
Oct 06 15:10:55 <_Monkey> i am the best programmer in the whole freenode IRC right now
Oct 06 15:11:05 <celesteh> hahaha
Oct 06 15:12:07 <zuh> banana?
Oct 06 15:12:19 * zuh expected "yes, please"
Oct 06 15:13:30 <alterego> Heh
Oct 06 15:13:49 <czr> zuh, obviously it's not just any ordinary monkey :-)
Oct 06 15:13:59 * Jaffa wakes up
Oct 06 15:14:12 <celesteh> _Monkey, banana is something I'd like right now
Oct 06 15:14:13 <_Monkey> OK, celesteh.
Oct 06 15:14:48 <zoran> _Monkey, what _Monkey is called _Monkey
Oct 06 15:14:49 <_Monkey> zoran: wish i knew
Oct 06 15:14:50 <Jaffa> pupnikbeer: anything in particular you'd like to know?
Oct 06 15:15:21 <pupnikbeer> You know mud-builder?
Oct 06 15:17:32 * Jaffa *wrote* mud-builder :-)
Oct 06 15:17:54 <alterego> mudbuilder?
Oct 06 15:17:55 <_Monkey> well, mudbuilder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/index.php  Forum at http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10279
Oct 06 15:18:12 <pupnikbeer> It tries to download a non-existent  source package after i have put the source tarball into build/MYAPP/.build
Oct 06 15:18:13 <zoran> hm mudbuilder?
Oct 06 15:18:13 <_Monkey> mudbuilder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/index.php  Forum at http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10279
Oct 06 15:18:23 <pupnikbeer> and there is no debian source package available
Oct 06 15:18:31 <zoran> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mudbuilder?
Oct 06 15:18:32 <_Monkey> mudbuilder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/index.php  Forum at http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10279
Oct 06 15:18:39 <alterego> Heh
Oct 06 15:18:48 <pupnikbeer> Jaffa, so perhaps i should skip the "mud get mycal" step ?
Oct 06 15:18:54 <zoran> hm n n n n n n n n n n n n mudbuilder?
Oct 06 15:19:04 <Jaffa> pupnikbeer: I'd need to see the XML file, but it sounds like you're specifying the source type as debian, when it's not.
Oct 06 15:19:24 <zuh> zoran: You could do that in privmsgs too, you know ;)
Oct 06 15:19:34 <zoran> :), sorry
Oct 06 15:19:50 <pupnikbeer> that's right Jaffa - thanks for the info
Oct 06 15:19:58 <pupnikbeer> what should go into type="" for a local file?
Oct 06 15:20:49 <Jaffa> Because of the way it works, it's probably best to get it to download the tarball from somewhere.
Oct 06 15:21:09 <Jaffa> See http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/docs/index.php?id=packageformat for more details
Oct 06 15:21:16 <Jaffa> In particular, <fetch type="tarball">
Oct 06 15:21:37 <Jaffa> You can put a local path outside of the mud tree, or a URL
Oct 06 15:21:59 <pupnikbeer> thanks!  i should have read through that.  sorry.
Oct 06 15:22:42 <Jaffa> No probs, I know the documentation's lacking.
Oct 06 15:22:46 <Jaffa> And I'm sorry for that.
Oct 06 15:23:08 <pupnikbeer> i can help when i understand it - thanks for the response
Oct 06 15:23:38 <Jaffa> Excellent, feel free to ask any question of me at any time, either here, via email direct or on the mud-builder mailing list.
Oct 06 15:25:26 <pupnikbeer> mud compile sdlscavenger Failed to run compile on sdlscavenger: Unable to read control: No such file or directory
Oct 06 15:25:43 <pupnikbeer> the source tree has no debian/control
Oct 06 15:25:57 <pupnikbeer> should i make one?
Oct 06 15:25:57 <Jaffa> pupnikbeer: hmm, that suggests that running dh_make on it (should automatically happen after the tarball's been extracted) failed.
Oct 06 15:26:15 <Jaffa> pupnikbeer: you can make one yourself, but it should create one from the info in the package XML file if not present.
Oct 06 15:26:27 <pupnikbeer> i manually exctracted the tarball to the .build directory
Oct 06 15:26:36 <zoran_2> I'd like to ask how to manage something just mundane in ash: how to get rid od path before the prompt; .profile does not give a result (maemo-hackers' xterm0
Oct 06 15:26:38 <pupnikbeer> ok
Oct 06 15:27:01 <Jaffa> pupnikbeer: you shouldn't need to unpack it yourself into .build
Oct 06 15:27:38 <pupnikbeer> ok
Oct 06 15:27:49 <pupnikbeer> just following directions :)
Oct 06 15:28:20 <pupnikbeer> so i can delete build/sdlscavenger/.build and rerun compile?
Oct 06 15:28:30 <pupnikbeer> or delete build/sdlscavenger ?
Oct 06 15:29:00 <pupnikbeer> where does the xml specify location of tarball?
Oct 06 15:29:24 <Jaffa> delete build/sdlscavenger, make sure your sdlscavenger.xml has <fetch type="tarball">, specifying the location.
Oct 06 15:29:33 <Jaffa> Ah, hang on (yes, that bit of the docs is missing ;-))
Oct 06 15:30:07 <Jaffa> See packages/vim.xml for an example.
Oct 06 15:30:56 <pupnikbeer> ok thanks
Oct 06 15:31:04 <Jaffa> So you'll want something like file:///home/pupnik/src/mytarball.tar.gz - or, ideally, a pointer to the upstream so it can be built on others' machines.
Oct 06 15:31:24 <pupnikbeer> okies
Oct 06 15:35:16 <pupnikbeer> niceee.. works good
Oct 06 15:53:02 <zoran> hm, someone changed prompt in maemo-hackers' xterm, using busybox?
Oct 06 16:16:26 <alterego> zoran, yes.
Oct 06 16:41:23 <|R> http://atlas.kennesaw.edu/~rmw1202/dope.html <- anyone running this on an n800 and the latest firmware? :)
Oct 06 16:41:26 <|R> (Dope Wars)
Oct 06 17:03:02 <czr> alterego, http://koltsoff.com/pub/hello-n800/  . feedback appreciated
Oct 06 17:10:41 <disq> cruel world. heh
Oct 06 17:11:08 <disq> nice doc
Oct 06 17:11:20 <czr> thanks
Oct 06 17:11:31 <rlifchitz> czr: great !
Oct 06 17:11:40 <czr> probably should post a note about it on the maemo-devel list
Oct 06 17:11:57 <czr> although that would mean subscribing to the list first :-)
Oct 06 17:14:05 <rlifchitz> :)
Oct 06 17:14:13 <disq> you could opt to not receive any mail
Oct 06 17:14:22 <|R> W: GPG error: http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com bora Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG CBFC2BECC6903E72 Nokia Internet Tablet Archive Automatic Signing Key <integration@maemo.org>
Oct 06 17:14:27 <czr> nah, might as well sub
Oct 06 17:14:30 <disq> it sucks anyway you say gstreamer==poo and suddenly all nokia chaps jump on you
Oct 06 17:14:32 <|R> any reasons why i would now be getting this? :/
Oct 06 17:14:59 <disq> i sometimes get that too
Oct 06 17:15:13 <czr> disq, you say <insert any open source project with significant effort investment>==poo, and suddenly.. well, you know :-)
Oct 06 17:15:35 <|R> it blocks the application manager from instaling thing as it can't update the list ... i've put the lines in source.list in commentary for now but ... well :)
Oct 06 17:16:14 <disq> :P
Oct 06 17:16:42 * czr remembers asking all the wrong questions on GTK+ irc channel
Oct 06 17:17:03 <czr> and I didn't even use the p word, mind you.
Oct 06 17:20:00 <alterego> penis?
Oct 06 17:20:48 <czr> if that is the first p-word that pops into your mind when speaking about GTK+, then.. well.. can't blame you :-)
Oct 06 17:21:48 <disq> gtk+.. and p.. PObject? no, that's not it
Oct 06 17:22:00 <disq> pirates? arrrrr. no, i don't think so
Oct 06 17:22:15 <czr> hmm. I wonder if it would make sense to make a class abstration for PO-files.
Oct 06 17:22:19 <czr> POObject.
Oct 06 17:22:37 <disq> lol.
Oct 06 17:25:52 <|R> anyone still has a mirror for the rdesktop 0.2 package? ehore's one is dead  :|
Oct 06 17:27:33 <disq> maemo garage?
Oct 06 17:27:33 <disq> why 0.2?
Oct 06 17:27:48 <|R> disq : the link is dead there... i only found a link by google
Oct 06 17:27:52 <|R> but now that server is dead too
Oct 06 17:27:57 <|R> http://www.ehore.com/apps/it2006/rdesktop_0.2_armel.deb
Oct 06 17:28:00 <|R> (doesn't work)
Oct 06 17:28:04 <disq> why not install https://garage.maemo.org/frs/download.php/1052/rdesktop_0.4_armel.deb
Oct 06 17:28:17 <|R> good question :P
Oct 06 17:28:32 <disq> should work just fine on it2006
Oct 06 17:28:59 <|R> i'm on 2007 here though
Oct 06 17:29:20 <disq> should work even better
Oct 06 17:29:54 <|R> ok then, cool, thanks, where did you find it ? in 2007 it only linked to 0.1 and in 2006 to 0.3a weird!
Oct 06 17:30:31 <disq> where, in maemo.org?
Oct 06 17:30:35 <|R> yep?
Oct 06 17:30:50 <|R> oh damn
Oct 06 17:31:00 <|R> ok i get it.. maemo.org doesn't search the same thing as garage!
Oct 06 17:31:06 <|R> that's a bit odd :P
Oct 06 17:31:07 <disq> weird
Oct 06 17:31:08 <|R> sorry ;)
Oct 06 17:31:25 <|R> next time i'll try both :)
Oct 06 17:31:42 <disq> nope, maemo.org says 0.3a. though it will install the latest since it's installing from the repositories (in this case, 0.4)
Oct 06 17:31:54 <alterego> czr, looks good.
Oct 06 17:31:57 <|R> ok :)
Oct 06 17:32:29 * czr nods appreciatively at alterego
Oct 06 17:55:14 <czr> damn the text layout engine in opera is crappy
Oct 06 17:55:25 <czr> or maybe the CSS support is "wanting".
Oct 06 17:58:51 <zerojay> Opera's pretty old now.
Oct 06 17:58:53 <zerojay> 8.5
Oct 06 17:59:01 <zerojay> I think that's like.. two or three years old.
Oct 06 17:59:41 <czr> I'd assumed that N800 would ship with something more recent then
Oct 06 17:59:43 * czr shrugs
Oct 06 18:00:06 <zerojay> Until recently, it was the latest mobile version of Opera.
Oct 06 18:00:14 <zerojay> Install Microb then.
Oct 06 18:00:19 <zerojay> Nice and bleeding edge.
Oct 06 18:00:55 <czr> someone was complaining just today that it's not possible to install it with the newest fw
Oct 06 18:01:09 <zerojay> I was able to install it just fine.
Oct 06 18:01:23 <czr> but maybe I'll try it out later, I don't use N800 much anyway, just wanted to see what my text-heavy page looks on it
Oct 06 18:01:28 <czr> oh, ok. user error then :-)
Oct 06 18:01:39 <zerojay> Maybe, maybe not.
Oct 06 18:12:03 <czr> hmm. I created a account on maemo.org, got redirected to garage.maemo.org (which works fine). However, maemo.org doesn't want me to login anyway. any hints?
Oct 06 18:28:36 <GeneralAntilles> zerojay, microb worked for you on the latest firmware?
Oct 06 18:28:42 <GeneralAntilles> I haven't had any luck
Oct 06 18:28:45 <zerojay> Yep.
Oct 06 18:28:49 <GeneralAntilles> it seems like the meta-package is missing.
Oct 06 19:39:30 <yetihwelttil> hi, does anyone know if the webcam in the N800 can be used by flash for things such as direct upload on youtube?
Oct 06 19:42:57 <pupnik> maybe
Oct 06 19:44:00 <flip^> i guess the answer would be "if someone made it happen, then yes"
Oct 06 19:44:11 <flip^> but someone's gotta want to code it first
Oct 06 19:44:17 <flip^> and no one wants to code for the n800's sucky camera
Oct 06 19:45:01 <Atarii> wat megapixel is it?
Oct 06 19:45:03 <yetihwelttil> heh
Oct 06 19:45:10 <flip^> 320x200?
Oct 06 19:45:13 <yetihwelttil> yeah, i saw some photos from it and it was pretty noisy and.. horrible
Oct 06 19:45:38 <pupnik> are you comparing it to other micro cameras?
Oct 06 19:45:38 <flip^> it's a nice little novelty feature, possibly ok for something like skype, but that's as far as it goes... "ok"
Oct 06 19:45:41 <pupnik> or real cameras?
Oct 06 19:45:58 <yetihwelttil> to most micro cameras
Oct 06 19:45:59 <flip^> the low quality camera on my N95 is better ;)
Oct 06 19:46:04 <pupnik> ok
Oct 06 19:46:22 <yetihwelttil> i'm just thinking it would be neat to be able to do flash based video streaming etc via it
Oct 06 19:47:14 <zerojay> The camera's not very good, but it works well enough for my needs.
Oct 06 19:47:49 <zerojay> yetihwelttil: And no, the camera isn't detected by Flash.
Oct 06 19:47:58 <yetihwelttil> aww
Oct 06 19:48:01 * flip^ should really try using the camera for something osmetime
Oct 06 19:48:06 <zerojay> yetihwelttil: You'll have to bother Adobe about that.
Oct 06 19:48:36 <yetihwelttil> that could be challenging :P
Oct 06 19:49:17 * flip^ wants a jdk on his n800 :(
Oct 06 19:49:59 <zerojay> Build it then.
Oct 06 19:50:07 <zerojay> It's not like it isn't available.
Oct 06 19:50:20 <flip^> well, it's not much use without a jre as well tbh, and that would be a lot of effort
Oct 06 19:50:31 <pupnik> i want the adobe employee who decided postscript should become non-text to get pancreatic cancer
Oct 06 19:50:32 <zerojay> There is a jre.
Oct 06 19:50:41 <flip^> yeah, i heard it's not exactly 100% yet
Oct 06 19:50:55 <zerojay> If all you want to do is run Java apps, it'll work.
Oct 06 19:51:05 <flip^> and i'm only really starting out on getting myself a dev environment for maemo anyway... just copying the vmware appliance to my laptop as we speak in fact
Oct 06 19:51:06 <pupnik> you used to be able to parse postscript with unix tools - sed/awk/perl
Oct 06 19:51:08 <zerojay> Don't expect it to work in the browser or with any gui elements though
Oct 06 19:53:15 <flip^> if it were trivial to build a jdk, i expect it would have been done by now
Oct 06 19:53:27 <zerojay> It was.
Oct 06 19:54:49 <zerojay> You can check out Jalimo or try helping out with some fixes on PhoneME Advance's port to the N800.
Oct 06 19:55:20 <zerojay> Honestly, I don't really see much of a use for Java anyways.
Oct 06 19:55:33 <zerojay> And what a horrible choice for use in small embedded devices, really.
Oct 06 19:58:32 <flip^> Java is useful because its portable without recompiling, and its what I know.... used it plenty of times in places I've worked, so there's clearly demand
Oct 06 19:59:04 <zerojay> It's what I use at work as well.
Oct 06 19:59:08 <zerojay> Unfortunately.
Oct 06 20:00:19 <flip^> I do more stuff with php these days tbh, but occasionally java has its uses
Oct 06 20:00:46 <flip^> wanting to play with maemo stuff leaves me fearing touching C++ again mind
Oct 06 20:00:57 <zerojay> I'd much rather be doing that than Java.
Oct 06 20:01:09 <zerojay> Especially on cell phones.
Oct 06 20:01:58 <zerojay> A hell of a lot nicer than trusting that the JVM's garbage collector even works.
Oct 06 20:02:11 <flip^> well, maybe... but all of my C/C++ work has been working on the platform I'm compiling for, often working with other people's code... this is the first time I've had a desire to really try something like this
Oct 06 20:02:29 <flip^> the gc tends to be pretty reasonable these days ;)
Oct 06 20:03:02 <zerojay> Don't be too sure about that.
Oct 06 20:03:18 <flip^> Well, it collects the garbage I create happily enough generally ;)
Oct 06 20:03:25 <zerojay> At least not on the different JVMs I have to work with.
Oct 06 20:03:35 <flip^> well, that may be true :)
Oct 06 20:04:02 <zerojay> Wouldn't be so bad if they all used the same one, but they don't.
Oct 06 20:04:22 <zerojay> I hope the open sourcing of Java fixes that in the future.
Oct 06 20:04:32 <czr> I don't ever recall seeing a bytecode compiled java program run the same way on different devices/jvms
Oct 06 20:04:32 <flip^> the only language I had any real success with on a mobile device was OPL, years ago ;)
Oct 06 20:04:50 <czr> unless they are tested specifically across multiple environments
Oct 06 20:05:02 <czr> and even then it's just "meh" after "meh".
Oct 06 20:05:11 <zerojay> I work on mobile games.
Oct 06 20:05:23 <flip^> any i might have heard of?
Oct 06 20:05:25 <zerojay> So.. getting it to work across everything is kind of my job.
Oct 06 20:05:35 <czr> zerojay, so you know what I'm talking about :-)
Oct 06 20:05:38 <zerojay> Probably not, unless you're a 16 year old girl.
Oct 06 20:05:52 <zerojay> czr: I know the pain all too well.
Oct 06 20:06:00 <flip^> nah, I definitely lack every quality needed to be a 16 year old girl
Oct 06 20:06:07 <czr> I got the sense to get out of java when it was still 1.0/1.1ish
Oct 06 20:06:21 <czr> (although I got out of pretty much everything back then)
Oct 06 20:06:33 <zerojay> I want out of mobile so bad.
Oct 06 20:06:43 <zerojay> Thankfully, we're starting work on console games.
Oct 06 20:07:02 <czr> at least there's a limited number of them
Oct 06 20:07:08 <czr> consoles I mean.
Oct 06 20:07:17 <flip^> and much higher expectations from the audience
Oct 06 20:07:28 <zerojay> Yeah.. 2 or 3 instead of 2 or 3 hundred.
Oct 06 20:08:22 <zerojay> What sucks about mobile is that the carriers have such a strong say in what comes out and what doesn't.
Oct 06 20:08:36 <pupnik> zerojay: in mobile, what portion of development budget goes to graphics and sound vs programming?
Oct 06 20:09:17 <zerojay> If you are making an ambitious game and you know only high end phones will run it.. Sprint will tell you to take a hike if it doesn't run on their top 25 selling models... which are of course all the cheapest phones they have.
Oct 06 20:09:40 <zerojay> In mobile, sound usually gets very little.
Oct 06 20:09:56 <zerojay> Mainly because the phones still can't handle some basic shit like playing two sounds at a time or even looping.
Oct 06 20:10:08 <pupnik> heh
Oct 06 20:10:26 <zerojay> Most of the graphics are done in preproduction. Maybe a month tops unless you've got some major changes.
Oct 06 20:10:29 <flip^> I like to play games in quiet places anyway ;)
Oct 06 20:10:29 <pupnik> it is a vague question sorry
Oct 06 20:10:54 <zerojay> Programming takes up the most... even for a small ass game, we might have 3 guys working on it for 8 months.
Oct 06 20:11:10 <zerojay> And that's just for our first master.
Oct 06 20:11:25 <zerojay> Add another two or three months with 10 guys for porting to other phones.
Oct 06 20:11:40 <pupnik> eenteresting :)
Oct 06 20:11:54 <zerojay> Thankfully, because of the way things work, most of the time we can have a build working on a phone within 10 minutes.
Oct 06 20:11:58 <zerojay> Unless it's a real shitbox.
Oct 06 20:12:36 <zerojay> There are times where our publisher says "we've got phone X here as a prerelease... give us a build!"
Oct 06 20:12:43 <zerojay> And they don't give us even basic specs.
Oct 06 20:12:53 <zerojay> We have to try making the builds completely blindly.
Oct 06 20:13:09 <zerojay> And wait a day for the people on the other side of the planet to tell us if we guessed wrong.
Oct 06 20:13:49 <zerojay> So.. you've got something like 300 phones to port your game to.
Oct 06 20:13:56 <zerojay> In 13 languages.
Oct 06 20:14:01 <zerojay> For 15 operators.
Oct 06 20:14:08 <zerojay> Each of which has their own wishlist.
Oct 06 20:14:12 <zerojay> Or requirements.
Oct 06 20:14:39 <zerojay> Telefonica (Spain) requires us to have an option advertizing other games, for example.
Oct 06 20:14:56 <zerojay> Or just showing people how to get more games.
Oct 06 20:15:57 <pupnik> big guy pushing little guy around
Oct 06 20:16:17 <pupnik> happened that way when i wrote stuff for a company that made stuff for a biggg company
Oct 06 20:16:24 <zerojay> It also doesn't help that our publisher gives the carriers completely non-sensical deadlines.
Oct 06 20:16:36 <Atarii> zerojay wat company do u work for?
Oct 06 20:17:02 <pupnik> government games
Oct 06 20:17:07 <Atarii> :o
Oct 06 20:17:11 <zerojay> Because this is being logged publically, I don't think I'll be saying that here.
Oct 06 20:17:19 <Atarii> k
Oct 06 20:17:26 <zerojay> A small project from one of the largest game companies out there.
Oct 06 20:17:33 <zerojay> Well, we're not so small now.
Oct 06 20:17:35 <zerojay> 3 offices.
Oct 06 20:17:42 <zerojay> 100ish people.
Oct 06 20:17:46 <czr> ah. you are the people behind nethack!
Oct 06 20:17:52 <zerojay> Hahaha.
Oct 06 20:17:59 <pupnik> that's a good size - don't get much bigger
Oct 06 20:18:11 <zerojay> My office is already too big.
Oct 06 20:18:17 <zerojay> 76 people or so.
Oct 06 20:18:31 <pupnik> for a specific type of company
Oct 06 20:18:49 <zerojay> When I started, there was about 15.
Oct 06 20:18:59 <pupnik> nice
Oct 06 20:19:04 <zerojay> Felt very much like a family atmosphere.
Oct 06 20:19:30 <zerojay> Nowadays.. not so much. Lots more people that don't really want to do well.. they just want to have something nice to put on their resume.
Oct 06 20:20:55 <czr> it get much worse after 100 though
Oct 06 20:21:09 <zerojay> Yeah.. that's what I'm afraid of.
Oct 06 20:21:19 <czr> slow degradation to about 200, after that you start to read emails from people you've never met, and are likely not to meet.
Oct 06 20:21:34 <czr> and that's where all the "not my problem" stuff starts to happen.
Oct 06 20:21:34 <zerojay> Oh, I already do that all the time.
Oct 06 20:21:41 <czr> since people stop being socially responsible and such
Oct 06 20:22:09 <czr> well, obviously since you have branches around the world, but you get my meaning I hope
Oct 06 20:22:20 <zerojay> Yeah.
Oct 06 20:22:46 <pupnik> well lets help more young idealistic people get into game programming
Oct 06 20:22:56 <zerojay> About 25 coworkers coming in for Guitar Hero 3 night... not bad.
Oct 06 20:22:58 <pupnik> otherwise there won't be anyone for the suits to rape and abuse
Oct 06 20:23:13 <czr> zerojay, heh
Oct 06 20:23:26 <pupnik> and without the idealistic younguns with energy, the whole game collapses
Oct 06 20:24:54 * czr wouldn't be so sure about that
Oct 06 20:25:11 <czr> most younglings lack perspective.
Oct 06 20:26:12 <czr> not saying that older people have perspective either, but the odds are in their favour.
Oct 06 20:26:21 <pupnik> i need to find more 1920s music
Oct 06 20:28:11 <ZenGeist> hi all
Oct 06 20:28:17 <ZenGeist> i want to install rtcomm
Oct 06 20:28:38 <ZenGeist> but I can not do this because of dependences :(
Oct 06 20:28:57 <ZenGeist> evolution-data-server, but it is installed already
Oct 06 21:23:56 <dpryo> Somebody have a kernel for nokia 770 with support for usb-webcam?
Oct 06 21:36:21 <czr> silly bugs..
Oct 06 21:36:27 * czr curses at bug #2075
Oct 06 21:36:28 <_Monkey> Bug 2075 might be found at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2075
Oct 06 21:36:37 <czr> I know damn it. just re-opened it.
Oct 06 21:37:06 <rwhitby> _Monkey: die
Oct 06 21:37:06 <_Monkey> rwhitby: what?
Oct 06 21:37:47 * rwhitby can't stand bots that speak without being spoken too
Oct 06 21:38:03 <czr> heh, you too.
Oct 06 21:42:42 <dpryo> Is it cumbersome to setup scratchbox for kernel compiling?
Oct 06 21:42:53 <dpryo> My robot/car needs eyes :) http://nesland.net/zen/phidgetsonwheels
Oct 06 21:44:01 <xand> cool
Oct 06 21:45:26 <dpryo> It's almost done, got a client app that uses sdl_joystick as input, and sends the information to the 770 via wlan, that controls the motors
Oct 06 21:45:38 * flip^ launches the vmware appliance and wonders just what to do with it
Oct 06 21:46:01 <dpryo> Would be cool to actually see where it's going ;P
Oct 06 21:47:32 <flip^> anyone care to offer a few thoughts on how i can go from opening the appliance to something that actually does something maemo-ish ;)
Oct 06 21:48:45 <czr> dpryo, not very, at least for N800
Oct 06 21:49:37 <dpryo> I do have scratchbox setup for some compiling though..
Oct 06 21:50:00 <czr> dpryo, which device are you building for?
Oct 06 21:50:06 <dpryo> But I doubt make menuconfig && make dep in a standard tree works out of the box ;P
Oct 06 21:50:09 <dpryo> czr: 770
Oct 06 21:50:24 <czr> ah, then I don't know, guess the maemo.org site contains some stuff on that.
Oct 06 21:50:37 <dpryo> I'm reading this kernel compile howto
Oct 06 21:50:52 <dpryo> but it's a bit old, so it doesn't really describe the current sbox
Oct 06 21:50:55 <czr> any ideas on how to get contents from tcpdump dump, in which the traffic is HTTP but with gzip-transfer encoding? :-)
Oct 06 21:51:09 <dpryo> gunzip? :)
Oct 06 21:51:31 <czr> neh. the data is split over multiple packets
Oct 06 21:51:51 <Atarii> ettercap or wireshark
Oct 06 21:51:57 * czr wishes into existance a plugin for wireshark that would do this automagically
Oct 06 21:52:18 <czr> Atarii, they don't do deflate/gunzip on transfer-encoded http, do they?
Oct 06 21:52:23 <czr> that's the point.
Oct 06 21:52:32 <czr> the tcpdump was saved from wireshark.
Oct 06 21:52:37 <Atarii> o ok
Oct 06 21:52:51 <Atarii> u can do it with a ettercap plugin, but before capture
Oct 06 21:52:58 <Atarii> filter*
Oct 06 21:54:29 <czr> hmm. is the plugin part of ettercap tarball?
Oct 06 21:54:46 <pupnik> ignore, rwhitby
Oct 06 21:55:01 <Atarii> u need to make an ettercap filter
Oct 06 21:55:19 <czr> meh.
Oct 06 21:55:25 <czr> I thought you said one existed :-)
Oct 06 21:55:32 <Atarii> they do
Oct 06 21:55:38 <Atarii> one sec
Oct 06 21:55:42 <dpryo> czr: You can do it with wireshark, find the request, right click and follow tcp stream, save the stream as raw, and gunzip it
Oct 06 21:55:52 <Atarii> http://ettercap.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2833
Oct 06 21:56:06 <dpryo> (you might need to remove some of the uncompressed text from the raw file)
Oct 06 21:56:08 <czr> dpryo, the problem is that the deflated stuff is within responses, not headers and such
Oct 06 21:56:15 <czr> ah. I see
Oct 06 21:56:21 <czr> well, let me try that
Oct 06 21:56:36 <czr> trying to debug a browser bug in N800
Oct 06 21:56:43 <czr> and the site is sending the content in gzip TE
Oct 06 21:58:38 <czr> "not in gzip format". oh my.
Oct 06 21:58:47 <Atarii> ?
Oct 06 21:58:49 <dpryo> hm, worked fine for me
Oct 06 21:58:58 <czr> must be cutting from wrong places.
Oct 06 21:59:20 <dpryo> Remember, do a raw dump and not hex or ascii ;P
Oct 06 21:59:27 <czr> I did
Oct 06 22:00:01 <czr> http://koltsoff.com/bugs/n800/2095-raw-http.txt if anyone would like to take a peek
Oct 06 22:00:06 <czr> doesn't contain any sensitive data
Oct 06 22:01:52 <dpryo> hm, you're right. That didn't work
Oct 06 22:02:22 <czr> hmm. I'm wondering whether the "Transfer-Encoding: Chunked" is significant here
Oct 06 22:02:34 <czr> the content-encoding is gzip though.
Oct 06 22:03:04 <czr> the nasty bit is that nokia has put some kind of browser recognition to "protect" the tableteer
Oct 06 22:03:07 <Atarii> wat did u try which didnt work?
Oct 06 22:03:18 <czr> Atarii, what dpryo suggested
Oct 06 22:03:52 <dpryo> ah, cracked it.
Oct 06 22:04:10 <czr> dpryo, what was it?
Oct 06 22:04:12 <dpryo> It's the whole/normal html
Oct 06 22:04:22 <dpryo> php -r 'echo gzinflate(file_get_contents("2095-raw-http.txt"));' ;P
Oct 06 22:04:33 <czr> that's evil :-)
Oct 06 22:05:00 <czr> that explains it. meh. it's not gzip. it's deflate.
Oct 06 22:05:07 <czr> or hmm. let me try that
Oct 06 22:07:45 <czr> dpryo, meh, my php is unhappy. can you put the result up somewhere?
Oct 06 22:07:49 <czr> pastebin is ok too
Oct 06 22:13:24 <dpryo> http://ondskap.net/2095-raw-http_inflated.txt
Oct 06 22:14:11 <czr> aha!
Oct 06 22:14:16 <czr> thanks a lot, you're a star
Oct 06 22:14:29 <czr> it's not a bug in the browser after all
Oct 06 22:14:34 <czr> it's a bloody broken webpage! :-)
Oct 06 22:14:53 * czr covers dpryo with flowers
Oct 06 22:21:20 <czr> Atarii, the ettercap filtering would have required for traffic to be passed through ettercap
Oct 06 22:21:29 <czr> and it would removed the 'gzip' from the request
Oct 06 22:21:41 <czr> so not really a solution in this case, but nice to know for future.
Oct 06 22:22:03 <Atarii> maybe wud hav worked when using live data
Oct 06 22:22:42 <czr> no. it would have required for the data to pass through ettercap
Oct 06 22:23:00 <czr> which I cannot do (running off port-mirror from a switch, with the wlan AP being mirrored)
Oct 06 22:23:11 <Atarii> aaaa ok
Oct 06 22:23:34 <Atarii> unless u used arp spoofing
Oct 06 22:23:37 <czr> although small arp-redirection could have fixed that, but rather not do that unless I want to trip alarms
Oct 06 22:23:41 <czr> indeed.
Oct 06 22:23:43 <Atarii> :p
Oct 06 22:24:44 <czr> is there a webmaster address for the tableteer pages?
Oct 06 22:33:19 <czr> nevermind.
Oct 06 22:40:22 <czr> night ->
Oct 06 23:24:03 <sully> Hey guys, just an FYI: I've set up a more tablet-friendly interface for the Internet Tablet Talk Forums at http://blog.yllus.com/itt/
Oct 06 23:25:58 <Atarii> nice
Oct 06 23:26:17 <Atarii> anyway to hav a quick link to new posts?
Oct 06 23:27:25 <sully> hmm, I'll add it as a to-do item because I'm sick of PHP for today
Oct 06 23:27:26 <sully> haha
Oct 06 23:27:38 <Atarii> :p
Oct 06 23:39:24 <flip^> is it possible to get man (and the man pages for various stuff) onto a n800?
Oct 07 00:15:48 <imBen> Howdy
Oct 07 00:15:50 <_Monkey> hola, imBen
Oct 07 00:15:59 <imBen> Help?
Oct 07 00:17:34 <imBen> Help the cubs beat the diamond backs
Oct 07 00:25:44 <imBen> thi sis my problem...
Oct 07 00:25:48 <imBen> http://www.imben.net/iw/badunmount.jpg
Oct 07 00:44:18 <rlifchitz> imBen: the right command is "umount"
Oct 07 00:44:22 <rlifchitz> not "unmount"
Oct 07 01:56:19 <imBen> lol
Oct 07 01:56:22 <imBen> thanks :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 07 02:59:57 2007