**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Nov 28 02:59:56 2007
Nov 28 03:01:09 * timelE61i missed a drink?
Nov 28 03:02:06 * sp3000 flashes some more
Nov 28 03:02:35 <timelE61i> czr: so is package useful?
Nov 28 03:02:43 <czr> timelE61i, which one?
Nov 28 03:02:59 <timelE61i> capture-root
Nov 28 03:03:06 <czr> it might be. depends on whether you're lazy enough and don't want to use r&d or don't have the cable & flasher3 handy
Nov 28 03:03:17 <czr> if you can do r&d easily, doing that will be easier
Nov 28 03:03:21 <czr> probably
Nov 28 03:07:55 <sp3000> erm
Nov 28 03:08:18 <sp3000> what's the name of the submenu in 2007 where you have the cpl and backup and friends
Nov 28 03:08:32 <czr> Utilities? hmmh.
Nov 28 03:08:35 * timelE61i is home
Nov 28 03:08:38 <czr> don't have 2007 handy any more
Nov 28 03:08:40 <sp3000> tools or settings
Nov 28 03:08:43 <czr> settings
Nov 28 03:08:44 <_Monkey> settings are never all the same.
Nov 28 03:09:00 <czr> 99% sure about that one
Nov 28 03:09:01 <sp3000> settings in 2008, I'm thinking toos in 2007
Nov 28 03:09:12 <czr> hmm. /me shrugs.
Nov 28 03:09:27 <czr> sp3000, how badly do you need that?
Nov 28 03:09:35 <czr> I could always reflash one N800 with 2007
Nov 28 03:09:43 <czr> but I'd have to reflash back and it'd be pita
Nov 28 03:09:55 <sp3000> there's google image search :)
Nov 28 03:10:09 <czr> right. tell me if you need me to flash though. I can do it.
Nov 28 03:10:16 <czr> (the device has no useful stuff on it)
Nov 28 03:10:36 <sp3000> http://maemo.org/forrest-images/maemo_tutorial_bora/Graphic33.png ...but
Nov 28 03:11:08 <czr> you sure that's 2007?
Nov 28 03:11:13 <czr> doesn't look like 2007
Nov 28 03:11:20 <sp3000> hence the but
Nov 28 03:11:25 <czr> yeah
Nov 28 03:11:31 <sp3000> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/425509943_b19222a44f.jpg
Nov 28 03:11:39 <czr> most of the screenshots in the howtos are not from the version they should be :-)
Nov 28 03:11:58 <czr> that seems better
Nov 28 03:12:43 <timelE61i> Yeah, you should know better than to trust a maemo tutorial
Nov 28 03:13:00 * czr knows better than he wants to admit
Nov 28 03:13:10 <czr> I'm glad to say that all my material is up-to-date at least.
Nov 28 03:13:30 <czr> at least the stuff I've actually read properly through. but screenshots, captures and source codes are all up to date.
Nov 28 03:13:35 <timelyx> speaking of which
Nov 28 03:13:39 <timelyx> wanna go another round?
Nov 28 03:13:42 <czr> no
Nov 28 03:13:44 <czr> :-)
Nov 28 03:13:55 * |R flashing 2008b
Nov 28 03:13:56 <czr> nothing personal. too busy & I really need a rest from all that crap right now :-)
Nov 28 03:14:10 <czr> I'm anticipating another flood of updates on wed/thursday
Nov 28 03:14:29 <timelyx> ok
Nov 28 03:14:43 <czr> I'm trying to make a process for setting up a local repo
Nov 28 03:14:49 <czr> and doing DNS-based diversion
Nov 28 03:15:06 <czr> so that one can use the automatic install scripts as they are, but all installation will be done from stuff that is available on localhost
Nov 28 03:15:41 <czr> (which will carry the mirror of repo.meemoo)
Nov 28 03:16:24 <czr> and the setup will support dhcp-operation on the host, and require zero changes inside sbox targets even if the machine is taken around in different networks, etc.
Nov 28 03:18:51 <timelyx> can someone w/ an n800 handy check something for me?
Nov 28 03:19:00 <timelyx> what's the official description on the tablets-dev site for the 2008 flash?
Nov 28 03:19:02 <czr> timelyx, which version?
Nov 28 03:19:14 <czr> url?
Nov 28 03:19:52 <timelyx> http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N800.php
Nov 28 03:19:53 <timelyx> i suppose
Nov 28 03:20:20 <timelyx> don't download anything, ideally once you give it an id it should tell you the versions and descriptions
Nov 28 03:20:26 <timelyx> although iirc there's also a readme
Nov 28 03:21:20 <czr> bleh
Nov 28 03:21:27 <czr> that screen is really annoying on N800!
Nov 28 03:21:36 <czr> 1) the input field is not really visible with microb
Nov 28 03:21:46 <czr> 2) once you touch in it, it will popup the toolbar + vkb
Nov 28 03:21:46 <timelyx> nice
Nov 28 03:21:50 <czr> 3) they will cover that field
Nov 28 03:21:57 <czr> then you scroll it back into visibilty
Nov 28 03:22:02 <czr> and that triggers the VKB to hide
Nov 28 03:22:05 <czr> wtf :-)
Nov 28 03:22:21 <czr> but I assume that you don't actually need people to use the N800 to access that URL, right? :-)
Nov 28 03:22:22 <timelyx> the vkb impl is fairly stupid :)
Nov 28 03:22:28 <czr> "really" :-)
Nov 28 03:22:51 <timelyx> dolske was using firefox to download it
Nov 28 03:23:37 <czr> got the privmsg?
Nov 28 03:23:58 <timelyx> cool, they fixed it :)
Nov 28 03:24:03 <timelyx> 	The first beta IT OS 2008 release for Nokia N800
Nov 28 03:24:08 <timelyx> "first beta" is in bold
Nov 28 03:24:18 <czr> heh
Nov 28 03:24:21 <timelyx> qgil/ferenc ++
Nov 28 03:24:38 * timelyx sent an sms to qgil complaining about that monday (?)
Nov 28 03:25:50 <sp3000> 2406
Nov 28 03:26:01 * sp3000 should probably take a nap
Nov 28 03:26:10 <czr> you running against deadlines once more?
Nov 28 03:26:16 <czr> or this is a more of a hobby nowadays? :-)
Nov 28 03:26:22 <pressbuttan2win> Is this a good place for troubleshooting?
Nov 28 03:26:34 <timelyx> nice
Nov 28 03:26:38 <czr> pressbuttan2win, depends in you come with your own rifles or not
Nov 28 03:26:43 <czr> pressbuttan2win, sure, shoot.
Nov 28 03:26:45 <pressbuttan2win> heh
Nov 28 03:26:48 <pressbuttan2win> I just got a new N800
Nov 28 03:26:51 <pressbuttan2win> and I seem to have trouble playing audio
Nov 28 03:26:52 <czr> in=if even.
Nov 28 03:26:55 <pressbuttan2win> mp3s, etc.
Nov 28 03:27:04 <pressbuttan2win> Says "Unable to perform operation. Try again."
Nov 28 03:27:24 <czr> 1) does it always do that
Nov 28 03:27:29 <pressbuttan2win> yes always
Nov 28 03:27:32 <timelyx> did you try the n800's normal mp3s?
Nov 28 03:27:34 <czr> 2) is there a specific source where you have the mp3s in
Nov 28 03:27:39 <timelyx> and which os are you using?
Nov 28 03:27:42 <czr> 3) have you tried the stock files that come with the device
Nov 28 03:27:47 <pressbuttan2win> Yes, stock mp3 on the device
Nov 28 03:27:52 <czr> they don't work?
Nov 28 03:27:53 <pressbuttan2win> as well as one from my SD card that I tried
Nov 28 03:27:54 <pressbuttan2win> nope
Nov 28 03:28:03 <pressbuttan2win> ITOS2007, I think it's the latest rev
Nov 28 03:28:03 <timelyx> go to control panel,
Nov 28 03:28:06 <timelyx> about device
Nov 28 03:28:20 <timelyx> somewhere in the top it'll give the version
Nov 28 03:28:24 <pressbuttan2win> 4.2007.38-2
Nov 28 03:29:01 <pressbuttan2win> I'm going to try 2008 as soon as I get it downloaded, but I can't seem to find information about anyone having a similar problem
Nov 28 03:29:05 <timelyx> i just got home. at work i could try searching the code to find out what the error you got means
Nov 28 03:29:09 <pressbuttan2win> Except for a chatlog from this channel, hehe.  And their question went unanswered
Nov 28 03:29:52 <pressbuttan2win> Now, FM Radio works fine
Nov 28 03:29:57 <pressbuttan2win> if it's piped over the speakers
Nov 28 03:30:02 <pressbuttan2win> but if you try to change to headphones
Nov 28 03:30:21 <timelyx> wait
Nov 28 03:30:27 <timelyx> you installed fm radio?
Nov 28 03:30:31 <pressbuttan2win> Yes
Nov 28 03:30:42 <timelyx> someone complained that the fm radio pretty much broke normal sound stuffs
Nov 28 03:30:49 <pressbuttan2win> Though, mp3s didn't play prior to FM radio either
Nov 28 03:30:58 <timelyx> ok. very important
Nov 28 03:31:07 <timelyx> you could try installing ukmp or mplayer or the other one
Nov 28 03:31:10 <timelyx> and see if those work
Nov 28 03:31:10 <pressbuttan2win> "Audio output switching failed"
Nov 28 03:31:17 <pressbuttan2win> if you try to hit the icon button for FM Radio
Nov 28 03:31:18 <timelyx> the fm radio is "magical"
Nov 28 03:31:48 <pressbuttan2win> ok, I'll see about getting mplayer.  Though, I wonder if something more sinister is going on here. :-p
Nov 28 03:31:51 * sp3000 just suggests the magical tonic de reboot for everything
Nov 28 03:32:05 <timelyx> pressbuttan2win and the other guy bother indicated that didn't fix it
Nov 28 03:32:06 <ekim|n770> heey
Nov 28 03:32:08 <pressbuttan2win> I drank that tonic 20 minutes ago ;)
Nov 28 03:32:22 <sp3000> without charger plugged in, too? :)
Nov 28 03:32:27 <pressbuttan2win> oh
Nov 28 03:32:33 <pressbuttan2win> Will try that :-[
Nov 28 03:32:34 <ekim|n770> i want to format one of the partitions on my card
Nov 28 03:32:44 <timelyx> i think that "Audio output switching failed" might make sense
Nov 28 03:32:46 <sp3000> with charger plugged in it just pretends.
Nov 28 03:32:49 <timelyx> but i'd have to be at work to read it
Nov 28 03:32:58 <ekim|n770> how can i do that simply
Nov 28 03:33:01 * czr bangs head against wall
Nov 28 03:33:23 * pupnik plays Wagner
Nov 28 03:33:33 <pressbuttan2win> Hmm, I think sp3000 may have a point...
Nov 28 03:33:33 <pressbuttan2win> haha
Nov 28 03:33:40 <pressbuttan2win> That did it.
Nov 28 03:33:41 <czr> I wonder where my /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf went..
Nov 28 03:33:48 <pressbuttan2win> I had no idea the charger made things finicky like that.
Nov 28 03:34:11 <pressbuttan2win> Thanks czr and sp3000
Nov 28 03:34:14 <pressbuttan2win> and timelyx :-D
Nov 28 03:34:14 <sp3000> np
Nov 28 03:34:18 <ekim|n770> if nobody will tel me I'm going to sleep
Nov 28 03:34:23 <czr> pressbuttan2win, np & have fun
Nov 28 03:34:28 * sp3000 blames wedged $daemon or some other magic state
Nov 28 03:34:29 * czr tel's ekim|n770 
Nov 28 03:34:30 <ekim|n770> plz tell
Nov 28 03:34:34 <pupnik> ekim|n770: i format on a card reader
Nov 28 03:34:35 <GeneralAntilles> With a computer, ekim|n770.
Nov 28 03:34:42 <ekim|n770> no
Nov 28 03:34:58 <ekim|n770> actually on the device
Nov 28 03:35:09 <pupnik> fdisk i think, then mk*fs
Nov 28 03:35:09 <pressbuttan2win> Oh, and one last question.  Anyone have any experience with WEP+PEAP?
Nov 28 03:35:13 <pressbuttan2win> Seems it's not supported out of the box
Nov 28 03:35:26 <ekim|n770> my fat32 partition is messed up
Nov 28 03:35:29 <czr> pressbuttan2win, dig for maemo-devel archives and search using PEAP
Nov 28 03:35:33 <sp3000> not to be confused with mkf***s
Nov 28 03:35:39 <pressbuttan2win> Alright, thanks
Nov 28 03:35:42 <czr> pressbuttan2win, I don't think PEAP is supported. could be some legal issues with cisco and such
Nov 28 03:35:59 <pressbuttan2win> Sucky :(
Nov 28 03:36:04 <czr> pressbuttan2win, but I remember seeing some mails about it, check the archives first
Nov 28 03:36:06 <pressbuttan2win> I think I saw that WPA with PEAP is available
Nov 28 03:36:10 <czr> I might be talking up my ass.
Nov 28 03:36:15 <ekim|n770> ok....if you don't feel like telling me
Nov 28 03:36:22 <ekim|n770> geez
Nov 28 03:36:43 <czr> ekim|n770, it's formatted using the same tools that one would use on regular linux desktops (on the command line that is)
Nov 28 03:37:06 <czr> ekim|n770, fdisk to partition the card (if necessary), then mkfs to create the filesystems on each partition, depending on what kind of filesystem you want to create
Nov 28 03:37:18 <czr> mkfs.vfat might be a good starting point for you
Nov 28 03:37:47 <czr> you'll need to get fdisk & that program on the device first. seeing as you have "n" 770, you'll need to hunt for the tools in prepackaged format.
Nov 28 03:37:52 <ekim|n770> I already did all that
Nov 28 03:37:54 <czr> or you could send an email to maemo-users
Nov 28 03:38:00 <czr> and?
Nov 28 03:38:27 <ekim|n770> i want to format an existing partition
Nov 28 03:38:32 <pupnik> good answer czr
Nov 28 03:38:52 <pupnik> then mkfs on that part
Nov 28 03:39:04 <czr> just make sure it's not mounted at that moment
Nov 28 03:39:15 <czr> (use df -T and umount as root to get rid of it if it is)
Nov 28 03:39:38 <ekim|n770> how do I find out the mount point
Nov 28 03:39:47 <czr> use df -T.
Nov 28 03:39:50 <czr> it will list all mount points
Nov 28 03:40:00 <czr> -T will add the filesystem type. it will be vfat for the memory card
Nov 28 03:40:14 <czr> the right-most column is the mount point
Nov 28 03:40:21 <czr> if df -T doesn't work, try just 'df'
Nov 28 03:41:16 <ekim|n770> /media/mmc1
Nov 28 03:41:29 <ekim|n770> so umount /media/mmc1
Nov 28 03:41:48 <ekim|n770> then how do I format it
Nov 28 03:41:50 <czr> sounds amount right
Nov 28 03:42:09 <czr> hmm. what was the device from which /media/mmc1 was mounted from?
Nov 28 03:42:14 <czr> that's the left-most column of df
Nov 28 03:42:19 <czr> if you still have that visible
Nov 28 03:42:44 <czr> starts with /dev/ something.
Nov 28 03:42:47 <ekim|n770> /dev/mmcblk0p1
Nov 28 03:42:53 <czr> right.
Nov 28 03:42:59 <czr> that's the first partition on the card
Nov 28 03:43:05 <czr> probably the only partition on that card too :-)
Nov 28 03:43:11 <czr> mkfs.vfat /dev/mmcblk0p1
Nov 28 03:43:20 <czr> that will create a new vfat filesystem on that partition
Nov 28 03:43:37 <czr> (which is sometimes called "formatting", esp in windows)
Nov 28 03:45:42 <ekim|n770> i know what all this stuff means
Nov 28 03:46:05 <ekim|n770> the card has two prtitions
Nov 28 03:46:26 <ekim|n770> each about 500 megs
Nov 28 03:46:38 <ekim|n770> one ext2 one fat32
Nov 28 03:47:13 <ekim|n770> but somehow my fat partition got corrupted
Nov 28 03:47:22 <czr> fdisk -l /dev/mmcblk0
Nov 28 03:47:29 <czr> that will give you a list of partitions on the block device
Nov 28 03:47:45 <czr> using the partition table on the device
Nov 28 03:48:07 <czr> and that will probably help you decide which partition to mkfs then
Nov 28 03:49:44 <ekim|n770> i dn't have fdisk
Nov 28 03:50:06 <ekim|n770> and I cant get it
Nov 28 03:50:28 <ekim|n770> because it breaks tons of stuff
Nov 28 03:50:40 <ekim|n770> well i!!m going to sleep
Nov 28 03:50:50 * czr nods
Nov 28 03:50:59 <ekim|n770> ill fix it in the morning
Nov 28 03:51:13 <ekim|n770> g'night czr
Nov 28 03:51:21 <czr> night
Nov 28 03:53:07 <oil> are you also having problems with memorycards? my 8GB hdsc has been lost by os2008 couple of times now.
Nov 28 03:53:22 <timelyx> "lost"?
Nov 28 03:53:35 <zerojay> Yeah, about to ask the same thing.
Nov 28 03:54:42 <timelyx> "you"? while i'm asking questions :)
Nov 28 03:54:53 <czr> what questions?
Nov 28 03:55:16 <timelyx> <what does "x" mean in the last sentence containing "x"?>
Nov 28 03:55:33 <czr> bleh. messing up dhcp client beyong recovery is not fun. /me kicks ISC for producing such crap
Nov 28 03:55:47 <czr> timelyx, why do you ask?
Nov 28 03:55:49 <oil> timelyx: I can not see the mount anymore
Nov 28 03:56:25 <oil> and there were some FAT errors on dmesg, but I did not copy those when I had the problem.
Nov 28 03:57:49 <timelyx> halley: btw, did you get the typo in screw_driver?
Nov 28 04:04:08 * czr hates services which don't remove their pid-files
Nov 28 04:04:12 <czr> on shutdown
Nov 28 04:07:18 <|R> anyone having weird things happen with SIP? i can get it to connect, call, and talk... and the next call it just dies when the other end answers... the next one it won't even ring it. and so on randomly
Nov 28 04:07:24 <|R> (OS2008)
Nov 28 04:08:19 <oil> ir: did this happen with previous version of os? and which sip provider are you using?
Nov 28 04:08:47 <|R> oil : right now it's just an internal test through my asterisk
Nov 28 04:08:56 <|R> n800 -> asterisk -> other-SPA
Nov 28 04:09:12 <|R> oil : and i actually had it working a while back on OS2007
Nov 28 04:09:26 <oil> could there be something that the spa/asteris does not send bye message ?
Nov 28 04:09:46 <oil> ok.
Nov 28 04:09:49 <|R> but didn't do any extensive testing, and yesterday it didn't work on OS2007, so i flashed 2007 again, didn't work... (video chat was dead too for some reasons, i though i had a conflict with something i had installed since)
Nov 28 04:10:10 <|R> and so ... i figure why not try OS 2008 beta... video chat is back #1 with a friend but SIP is completely random :|
Nov 28 04:11:12 <|R> oil : if it wasnt sending bye i guess that unregistering/registering would fix it ?
Nov 28 04:11:15 <oil> well, if you had already yesterday problems with os2007. then I'd check more of the asterisk.
Nov 28 04:11:30 <|R> but it doesn't seem to do anything to help and i see the un/register in asterisk -rvvvvv
Nov 28 04:12:06 <oil> if the case is so that the n800 or the asterisk server stil thinks that there is an ongoing call and therefore does not allow new call.
Nov 28 04:12:11 <|R> yeah, i ll look a bit more into it, just wondering if anyone had an idea as a have a pretty basic setup right now... just a sip account in a context that just dials another sip handset
Nov 28 04:12:35 <oil> and there an timeout. so the problem should resolve itself in time.. for each call
Nov 28 04:13:11 <|R> i'll try to see if i detect a timeout pattern...
Nov 28 04:13:29 <|R> but then... restarting asterisk & the n800 apps would fix it too
Nov 28 04:13:32 <|R> urhm :|
Nov 28 04:13:36 <oil> check also if you are using stun.
Nov 28 04:13:45 <|R> it's checked
Nov 28 04:13:48 <|R> should i remove it?
Nov 28 04:14:07 <oil> for testing yes. might be that the stun server does not answer and causes delays.
Nov 28 04:15:00 <|R> how does STUN work? never looked into it (it's off, testing...)
Nov 28 04:16:15 <|R> uhm
Nov 28 04:16:27 <oil> basically the client (behind NAT)  sends an packet to the stun server (which has to be on the public internet).  STUN server resolves the public IP of the terminal from the tcp headers and returns the public IP back to the terminal
Nov 28 04:17:29 <|R> oh ok, plain simple :)
Nov 28 04:17:43 <oil> then the terminal can put this public ip to the sip headers.. so that the calls from the public internet  can be reached by the terminal behind the nat
Nov 28 04:18:16 <oil> yes. it's pretty simple :)
Nov 28 04:18:52 <|R> ok, i shutdowned the n800, restarted asterisk... restarted the n800...
Nov 28 04:19:23 <oil> are you runnig asterisk on real computer or openwrt?
Nov 28 04:19:37 <|R> real
Nov 28 04:19:46 <|R> which is my gateway
Nov 28 04:20:03 <oil> ok. I'm running on openwrt, which is also the gateway
Nov 28 04:20:03 <|R> it rang and when i answered it died...
Nov 28 04:20:52 <oil> hmm.. better to take a look of the sip messages with wireshark or so, it might give a clue
Nov 28 04:21:06 <czr> bleh. too tired to continue this crap. night sp3000 & timeless
Nov 28 04:21:58 <|R> i get: -- Registered SIP ... -- Save useragent "Telepathy ... -- Got SIP response 405 "Method Not Allowed" ... (which everyone gets) -- Executing 1234@home Diap( SIP/n800 ... SIP/spa) in new stack -- Called spa -- SIP/spa ... is ringing
Nov 28 04:22:26 <|R> SIP/spa answered SIP/n800... -- Native bridging SIP/n800 and SIP/spa
Nov 28 04:22:38 <|R> and then something weird :
Nov 28 04:22:46 <oil> does a call from n800-> spa work?
Nov 28 04:23:06 <|R> no, that's what i'm trying :(
Nov 28 04:23:18 <|R>  == Spawn extension (home, 1234, 1) exited non-zero on 'SIP/n800-081ee588'
Nov 28 04:23:24 <oil> both ways does not work?
Nov 28 04:23:32 <|R> let me try the other way
Nov 28 04:24:29 <|R> uhm weird
Nov 28 04:24:41 <|R> the other way i answered, it didn't die, but i didn't get any sound on the n800
Nov 28 04:25:12 <|R> second time it works...
Nov 28 04:25:25 <oil> then it could be the codecs as well. try if you can define spa to use only g711u codec
Nov 28 04:26:28 <|R> 3rd time same as 1st heh...
Nov 28 04:27:23 <|R> uhm, i didn't force any codec...it should be on?
Nov 28 04:28:30 <oil> I'm thinking if the sip/sdp goes wrong in someway and therefore the clients can not negotiate common codec. then just to check, drop all other codecs and try again :)
Nov 28 04:28:35 <|R> also any idea what the "user for PSTN" option is ?
Nov 28 04:28:50 <oil> eg. going to as simple configuration as possible
Nov 28 04:34:53 <hexa_> humm seems like I can't foward in ukmp.. only backward seems to work :( forward pauses .. anyone else having the problem?
Nov 28 04:35:28 <hexa_> haha ok nervermind clicking juste right of the icon works :)
Nov 28 04:35:59 <oil> hexa_: hoho :)
Nov 28 04:41:20 <|R> oil : uhm, disallow=all, allow=g711u : [Nov 27 23:41:06] NOTICE[9690]: chan_sip.c:5331 process_sdp: No compatible codecs, not accepting this offer!
Nov 28 04:42:23 <oil> |R: huh? g711 should be the fallback codec. how about g711a?
Nov 28 04:42:38 <|R> ulaw seems to pass
Nov 28 04:42:43 <|R> let's try g711a :)
Nov 28 04:43:07 <|R> (pass as in: rings then die on answer...)
Nov 28 04:43:22 <oil> one thing you can do is to take tcpdump while calling from both of the devices. then check what they codecs they offer on the sip/sdp message
Nov 28 04:43:42 <|R> should i easily be able to read it in clear text?
Nov 28 04:43:51 <|R> tcpdump running ...
Nov 28 04:44:00 <oil> if you have wireshark, it's quite easy to read.
Nov 28 04:44:25 <|R> g711a same as g711u
Nov 28 04:44:27 <oil> http://www.wireshark.org/
Nov 28 04:44:40 <|R> yep, i think i already apt-got it :)
Nov 28 04:44:56 <oil> apt-got it. hih :)
Nov 28 04:49:55 <|R> argh, first test it actually works all the way through ;)
Nov 28 04:52:11 <|R> uhm, can't even find my password
Nov 28 04:53:41 <pupnik> date
Nov 28 04:53:55 <pupnik> Wed Nov 28 ... 16 days
Nov 28 04:54:26 <|R> pupnik : ? :)
Nov 28 04:55:09 <|R> oil RTP seems to be PT=ITU-T G.711 PCMU (with no allow/disallow options)
Nov 28 04:55:16 * pupnik uses Wile-E-Coyote Acme ultra super electro magnet to suck a N810 from thousands of miles away
Nov 28 04:55:31 <|R> pupnik : i thought it was on the 15? :)
Nov 28 04:56:22 <oil> ir: that should be ok. hmm. currently I have no idea what goes wrong.
Nov 28 04:56:52 <pupnik> oh .  17 then
Nov 28 04:56:53 <|R> oil : hehe me neither, thanks for the tips though :)
Nov 28 04:57:13 <oil> ir: no prob. sorry I could not help you throught
Nov 28 05:02:41 <lopz> re
Nov 28 05:27:09 <pupnik_> we all need vmps RM30s
Nov 28 05:28:06 <|R> argh osso-xterm on 2008 doesn't have a white on black !?
Nov 28 05:28:33 <zerojay> People use white on black?
Nov 28 05:28:37 <|R> i do
Nov 28 05:28:42 <|R> less strain on the eyes for me :)
Nov 28 05:28:43 <GeneralAntilles> It does, too.
Nov 28 05:28:48 <GeneralAntilles> Just switch the colors in prefs.
Nov 28 05:28:50 <zerojay> oh wait.. I meant black on white, never mind.
Nov 28 05:29:04 <|R> GeneralAntilles : i only get an option for background, not foreground (black on black is a bit hard for me ;)
Nov 28 05:29:11 <|R> zerojay hehe :)
Nov 28 05:29:23 <GeneralAntilles> You're a dirty liar.
Nov 28 05:29:26 <GeneralAntilles> I changed it
Nov 28 05:29:28 <GeneralAntilles> I swear!
Nov 28 05:29:31 <|R> hah
Nov 28 05:29:41 <GeneralAntilles> Tap the font
Nov 28 05:29:45 <GeneralAntilles> Then you get font color
Nov 28 05:29:55 <|R> oh
Nov 28 05:30:07 * |R is stupid passed midnight... uhm, maybe always actually
Nov 28 05:33:58 <zerojay> Anyone awake with a Chinook SDK handy?
Nov 28 05:37:12 <|R> i have a basic scratchbox ?
Nov 28 06:11:54 <|R> xterm in 2008 has less option than the last one :(
Nov 28 06:14:56 <truent> hey guys , how do i connect to a known AP on the command  line?
Nov 28 06:15:16 <truent> n800 but i doubt that matters
Nov 28 06:15:37 <pupnik> Mr T.  - Treat Your Momma Right
Nov 28 06:15:40 <|R> get iwconfig ?
Nov 28 06:15:40 <pupnik> best song ever
Nov 28 06:15:46 <|R> haha
Nov 28 06:17:05 <|R> uhm, default root account is disabled in 2008 ?
Nov 28 06:17:08 <truent> lemme try..
Nov 28 06:17:10 <|R> how am i supposed to ssh in :P
Nov 28 06:18:31 <cambba_> one way is to enable R&D mode, then sudo gainroot
Nov 28 06:19:35 <|R> never had to do that on 2007 :(
Nov 28 06:20:58 <truent> hmm
Nov 28 06:22:52 <truent> when i do iwconfig wlan0 essid "DEFAULT" it disconnects then automatically connects to the strongest wlan
Nov 28 06:23:39 <L0cutus> re
Nov 28 06:23:41 <truent> its a dummy adhoc (i think) AP im trying to connect to if that matters
Nov 28 06:24:59 <truent> i'd rather send some option to connection manager but it has to be cli for this script
Nov 28 06:26:33 <oil> have you figured out how to execute scripts after connecting to specific wlan ?
Nov 28 06:26:52 <zuh> |R: You don't need r&d all the time if you put your ssh keys there...
Nov 28 06:26:55 <truent> nope
Nov 28 06:27:26 <|R> oh... good idea
Nov 28 06:28:12 <truent> the whole thing is i wanna make a script to automate the process of connecting to my blackjack 's PAN
Nov 28 06:28:43 <truent> i can do i manually but i just wanna make it easy
Nov 28 06:29:28 <truent> and the only thing holding me up is connecting to this dummy Ap via cmd line
Nov 28 06:31:43 <|R> zuh : but uh, wait... i do need R&D anyway to get it there :|
Nov 28 06:32:03 * |R never looked at r&d, going to see what it implies...
Nov 28 06:32:35 <zuh> Nothing much if you just boot once with it, set up your keys and switch it off again
Nov 28 06:33:42 <|R> so it's just ./flasher --enable-rd-mode ?
Nov 28 06:34:23 <zuh> yeah
Nov 28 06:34:35 <truls> ack, still annoying with the blue flashing led on the directional-pad...
Nov 28 06:34:39 <truls> can't understand why they do that
Nov 28 06:34:49 <truls> keep thinking there's something wrong with my n800
Nov 28 06:35:05 <zuh> You can turn it off...
Nov 28 06:35:49 <truls> wooo
Nov 28 06:35:50 <truls> where?
Nov 28 06:37:03 <zuh> It's in control panel -> display
Nov 28 06:37:09 <oil> doesnt the blue led indicate that you have new message/email/calls or something else to notify?
Nov 28 06:37:10 <truls> doh
Nov 28 06:37:14 <zuh> or whatever they are in english
Nov 28 06:37:21 <truls> zuh: thanks, never realized...
Nov 28 06:37:24 <zuh> oil: It can, but you can turn that off too
Nov 28 06:37:43 <truls> "Show LED lights" didn't automatically trasnalte for me as "Blink annoyingly while sleeping"
Nov 28 06:37:48 <truls> translate
Nov 28 06:38:15 <zuh> Nor does LED settings logically follow display settings IMO
Nov 28 06:38:22 <truls> true
Nov 28 06:38:52 <truls> woo, made my day
Nov 28 06:39:46 <GeneralAntilles> You can turn the sleep blinking off in OS2008
Nov 28 06:40:04 <GeneralAntilles> and leave messages and such on.
Nov 28 06:40:16 <|R> R&D mode does what actually? just removes the ! in password file?
Nov 28 06:40:57 <GeneralAntilles> One of my 770s has been in R&D since early 2006
Nov 28 06:41:01 <GeneralAntilles> No problems there
Nov 28 06:41:05 <GeneralAntilles> So, dunno.
Nov 28 06:41:46 <|R> weird because in 2007 on my n800 i never needed to use this to get root :|
Nov 28 06:41:54 <GeneralAntilles> Nope
Nov 28 06:41:59 <GeneralAntilles> Not sure what changed
Nov 28 06:42:03 <GeneralAntilles> Stupid, though.
Nov 28 06:42:10 <|R> yeah, and the new xterm is butt ugly
Nov 28 06:42:31 <|R> (actually can't zoom out as much as before and the font is not good for a terminal...)
Nov 28 06:42:38 <|R> oh well
Nov 28 06:43:09 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, it's pretty broken.
Nov 28 06:43:11 <zuh> It switches a flag on and some programs react to that in certain ways, like sshd not allowing passwd logins and 'sudo gainroot' giving root access instead of a silly message
Nov 28 06:43:53 <GeneralAntilles> How can I get sshd to allow logins with R&D off?
Nov 28 06:43:58 <GeneralAntilles> I want my pretty bootscreen back. :)
Nov 28 06:44:09 <|R> hehe, auth keys?
Nov 28 06:44:25 <K`zan> Night folks
Nov 28 06:44:29 <zuh> Also it seems to limit the CPU MHz, I got ~160 bogomips in /proc/cpuinfo while in r&d and the expected 390...
Nov 28 06:44:40 <GeneralAntilles> Uh, no.
Nov 28 06:44:42 <zuh> Though I'm not 100% sure about that
Nov 28 06:44:45 <GeneralAntilles> The CPU is throttled.
Nov 28 06:44:55 <GeneralAntilles> So you'll get different bogomips depending on load. :)
Nov 28 06:45:57 <zuh> it seemed to be constant result, but as said, I dunno for sure
Nov 28 06:46:43 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, you're wrong. :)
Nov 28 06:46:50 <GeneralAntilles> Mine's been in R&D for a while
Nov 28 06:46:57 <GeneralAntilles> and I've gotten 388 bogomips.
Nov 28 06:47:03 <zuh> ok
Nov 28 06:47:48 <zuh> I guess you could say then that r&d mode lowers your devices load ;)
Nov 28 06:48:09 <GeneralAntilles> Ha
Nov 28 06:48:34 <zuh> It's funny though, got a small number, booted, got a small number again, switched the flag off & booted, got a bigger number
Nov 28 06:49:00 <GeneralAntilles> Start loading a website and then cat /proc/cpuinfo
Nov 28 06:49:08 <zuh> But I believe in murphy so... ;
Nov 28 06:49:10 <zuh> *)
Nov 28 06:49:25 <GeneralAntilles> Obviously, the device wasn't under load when you checked cpuinfo
Nov 28 06:49:52 <zuh> yeah, seems to be 160 again...
Nov 28 06:50:49 * |R thinks MaemoMapper should be the default navigation system, the nokia one is ugly too...
Nov 28 06:51:41 <GeneralAntilles> Ha
Nov 28 06:51:54 <GeneralAntilles> It probably would be if Google's licensing would permit it. :)
Nov 28 06:56:32 <GeneralAntilles> becomeroot seems to work fine on OS2008
Nov 28 06:59:49 <|R> user ALL = (ALL) NOPASSWD: ALL <- my best friend
Nov 28 06:59:49 <|R> hehe
Nov 28 07:02:01 <truent> whew
Nov 28 07:02:07 <truent> an actual keyboard is always nice
Nov 28 07:02:12 <GeneralAntilles> Now that's just weird as hell.
Nov 28 07:02:23 <GeneralAntilles> I seem to have enabled some weird autocomplete mode with my bluetooth keyboard
Nov 28 07:03:07 <|R> hehe
Nov 28 07:03:10 <truent> seriously.. anyone have any idea how to connect to a known AP via command line?
Nov 28 07:03:26 <truent> i tried 'iwconfig wlan0 essid "DEFAULT"' no go
Nov 28 07:03:31 <pupnik> If you fall asleep, the clowns can get you.
Nov 28 07:04:04 <truent> mind you DEFAULT is a dummy ap i setup per one of the wiki pages
Nov 28 07:04:11 * GeneralAntilles gets insomnia.
Nov 28 07:04:59 <zuh> truent: I bet the wireless-tools do not read gconf...
Nov 28 07:05:53 <truent> any ideas then?
Nov 28 07:06:32 <truent> i was thinking originally if ConnectionManager.. or whatever its command line counterpart is named, just took command line options.. ;p
Nov 28 07:07:28 <zuh> It'll work with a real AP, but not with the dummy which is for the nokia connection manager AFAIK
Nov 28 07:08:18 <zuh> depends on the encryption too, WPA is not possible through wireless-tools IIRC
Nov 28 07:08:52 <truent> well its all to connect to my blackjack via bluetooth..
Nov 28 07:09:08 <truent> i have to connect to this dummy ap in order for it to work properly
Nov 28 07:09:08 <zuh> ah, dunno about that at all then :)
Nov 28 07:09:53 <zuh> I guess you would just need to setup routing yourself, not really connect the wlan to anywhere... but as said, I dunno about that.
Nov 28 07:10:00 <truent> all that stuff is good, i can do it all fine.. its just im trying to write a script to automate the whole process and i cant figure out how to eliminate clicking on the 'DEFAULT' ap in the connection manager
Nov 28 07:10:57 <truent> no problems connecting, just a tedious process.. i want my wife to be able to click on a button for a script i wrote .. and have it just be on.. everything else is doable.. just connecting to an access point via cli
Nov 28 07:11:26 <truent> thanks for tryin for sure ;p
Nov 28 07:18:01 <truent> btw.. im gonna try again after a reboot, but 'iwconfig wlan0 essid "networkname"' doesnt work for a real ap either
Nov 28 07:24:07 <GeneralAntilles> truent, dbus, maybe?
Nov 28 07:24:30 <truent> yeah ive heard of that never looked into it..
Nov 28 07:24:49 <GeneralAntilles> It'd be a bit more involved than a shell script
Nov 28 07:24:55 <GeneralAntilles> but certainly will work
Nov 28 07:25:14 <GeneralAntilles> You could probably do it in Python or Ruby
Nov 28 07:25:25 <truent> well the script i was gonna do was in ruby
Nov 28 07:25:36 <truent> lemme look up dbus
Nov 28 07:25:43 <GeneralAntilles> alterego would be the guy to talk to
Nov 28 07:25:45 <truent> is it specific to n800 or just a linux lib?
Nov 28 07:25:57 <GeneralAntilles> This would be specific to the N800.
Nov 28 07:26:01 <GeneralAntilles> Well, ITOS in general
Nov 28 07:26:12 <GeneralAntilles> http://maemo.rubyx.co.uk/ruby-maemo/
Nov 28 07:26:43 <GeneralAntilles> Well, dbus is a Linux thing
Nov 28 07:26:54 <truent> yeah thats what i meant
Nov 28 07:26:58 <GeneralAntilles> but what you're trying to do will probably be more maemo specific.
Nov 28 07:27:02 <truent> i have ruby installed
Nov 28 07:27:07 <truent> for metasploit
Nov 28 07:27:25 <GeneralAntilles> The generic dbus documentation should probably get you started.
Nov 28 07:27:34 <truent> okie doke
Nov 28 07:28:21 <truent> just sucks cuz everything else can be done with system calls or shell scripting
Nov 28 07:28:22 <truent> ;p
Nov 28 07:31:53 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, seems like what you're trying to do should work.
Nov 28 07:31:57 <GeneralAntilles> But, dunno.
Nov 28 07:32:34 <timelyx> oh fsck me
Nov 28 07:32:51 <timelyx> some idiot commented in a bug preventing my comment w/ how to help from appearing
Nov 28 07:34:06 <GeneralAntilles> Ha
Nov 28 07:35:48 <gomiam> timelyx: I can't understand how someone commenting on a bug would keep you from doing the same. Did it get closed?
Nov 28 07:38:33 <timelyx> http://www.stickam.com/viewAudioGallery.do?uId=174834456
Nov 28 07:38:46 <timelyx> gomiam: bugzilla will generate an error message
Nov 28 07:38:52 <timelyx> if you're asleep, busy, hurried, or crash
Nov 28 07:38:55 <timelyx> you may not notice
Nov 28 07:39:08 <timelyx> as a result, your comment either gets lost waiting for a confirm page
Nov 28 07:39:13 <timelyx> or *really* lost when the browser crashes
Nov 28 07:39:26 <gomiam> ow
Nov 28 07:39:27 <gomiam> ok
Nov 28 07:39:30 <timelyx> note to people who think N is the only company that can't get plurals right
Nov 28 07:39:44 <timelyx> "No Audios Found." is *wrong*
Nov 28 07:46:25 <timelyx> in my case, i believe my browser crashed
Nov 28 07:48:15 <GeneralAntilles> Which browser?
Nov 28 07:48:45 <timelyx> minefield
Nov 28 08:01:33 <lopz> bye
Nov 28 08:09:57 <lopz> away
Nov 28 08:09:58 * timelyx frowns
Nov 28 08:09:59 <timelyx> https://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/aggregate_your_blog/
Nov 28 08:10:10 <timelyx> > As for today the entries must be in English.
Nov 28 08:10:25 <timelyx> why should entries be in English when the requirement that they be in English isn't written in English?
Nov 28 08:11:58 <timelyx> does: https://maemo.org/midcom-exec-midcom/about.php
Nov 28 08:12:01 <timelyx> crash for anyone else? :)
Nov 28 08:23:29 <timelyx> anyone here awake and have a device?
Nov 28 08:24:36 <GeneralAntilles> Logging in. :)
Nov 28 08:25:27 <vegai> timelyx: perhaps they mean that only for today, entries need to be in English
Nov 28 08:25:35 <vegai> tomorrow, do what you want
Nov 28 08:26:06 <timelyx> heh
Nov 28 08:49:02 <Rogier> ha kees
Nov 28 08:49:43 <needhelp> Hi! I need your help. Iam collecting points in page listed below. If you be so kind, please click url below.(sorry for the spam, thank you) http://www.3dwhite.lt/?click=56a3cdcf22ccc7ab5f0a7f4d2bc900ff
Nov 28 08:49:46 <Rogier> test 1 2 3
Nov 28 08:50:02 <timelyx> _Monkey capture root is a package that installs your user's authorized keys so you can ssh to root@your-device http://timeless.justdave.net/capture-root-0.1.deb
Nov 28 08:50:03 <_Monkey> OK, timelyx.
Nov 28 08:50:40 <timelyx> _Monkey capture root =~ s/device/device. -/
Nov 28 08:50:40 <_Monkey> OK, timelyx
Nov 28 08:51:13 <Jaffa> Morning, all
Nov 28 08:51:57 * timelyx pokes Jaffa
Nov 28 08:52:19 <guardian> morning
Nov 28 08:52:20 <_Monkey> aloha
Nov 28 08:59:47 <timelyx> GeneralAntilles: i  was talking about the device, not maemo.org :)
Nov 28 09:00:07 <GeneralAntilles> Well, the page you linked me to wanted a login
Nov 28 09:00:11 <GeneralAntilles> and I couldn't login on the device
Nov 28 09:00:15 <GeneralAntilles> so I couldn't test it.
Nov 28 09:00:43 <timelyx> oh. my other question wasn't related to the url
Nov 28 09:00:48 <GeneralAntilles> Ah, right.
Nov 28 09:00:56 <GeneralAntilles> You have a test page for the menus then?
Nov 28 09:01:22 <timelyx> any random app, this isn't browser related :). try notes and the details item
Nov 28 09:01:29 <timelyx> sorry :)
Nov 28 09:01:43 <GeneralAntilles> No worries. :)
Nov 28 09:01:46 <timelyx> just because i'm a browser engineer doesn't mean all my problems are browser related :)
Nov 28 09:02:11 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, hardware keys ignore greyed items.
Nov 28 09:05:40 <timelyx> ignore as in skip?
Nov 28 09:06:16 <rothiel> Hi guys :)
Nov 28 09:06:43 * timelyx pokes GeneralAntilles
Nov 28 09:06:54 <GeneralAntilles> Yessir
Nov 28 09:07:05 <GeneralAntilles> They're skipped and not highlighted.
Nov 28 09:07:48 <timelyx> thanks
Nov 28 09:07:50 <timelyx> stupid :)
Nov 28 09:10:52 <timelyx> oh
Nov 28 09:10:59 * timelyx can drag the stupid midguard bar onscreen
Nov 28 09:14:23 <timelyx> heh, loading http://www.skype.com/go/n800-download on my mac got me http://www.skype.com/intl/en/download/skype/windowsmobile/
Nov 28 09:16:01 <timelyx> ok, other than their site doing sniffing (probably not worse than nokia.com), skype's site is very pretty (unlike nokia.com)
Nov 28 10:28:47 <shackan> having problems here connecting to a PEAP network with MSCHAPv2 auth
Nov 28 11:01:27 <czr> timelyx, "Napsauta OK pysäyttääksesi sen, tai Peruuta odottaaksesi sen valmistumista." (instead of Paina)
Nov 28 11:01:39 <czr> timelyx, ie. turns "press" into "click"
Nov 28 11:01:52 <timelyx> czr: um... which does the platform use?
Nov 28 11:01:57 <timelyx> i'm not at work yet (obviously)
Nov 28 11:02:10 <timelyx> the platform at least in some locales seems to *never* use "click"
Nov 28 11:02:12 <czr> timelyx, that was a suggestion from my l10n friend
Nov 28 11:02:21 <timelyx> much to the annoyance of all localizers with whom i've spoken
Nov 28 11:02:40 <czr> it would be preferred to use click vs press. however, I think that'd be up to other people who have worked on l10n in moz
Nov 28 11:02:41 <timelyx> this seems to be some sort of nokiaism
Nov 28 11:02:49 <czr> ah
Nov 28 11:02:59 <timelyx> the moz people all suggested click
Nov 28 11:03:05 <czr> but I think you can ignore that for an open source project
Nov 28 11:03:14 <czr> or this localization was for a nokia project?
Nov 28 11:03:17 <timelyx> but !click won because this is essentially nokia stuff
Nov 28 11:03:22 <timelyx> it's for microb
Nov 28 11:03:28 <timelyx> which is only used by maemo/osso
Nov 28 11:03:29 <czr> uhh. ok
Nov 28 11:03:34 <X-Fade_> Hmm very N810 alike: http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/28/compal-expects-big-things-from-mids-in-2008-dedicates-team/
Nov 28 11:03:39 <timelyx> mozilla firefox has its own text
Nov 28 11:03:47 <timelyx> including buttons that don't say "OK" or "Cancel"
Nov 28 11:03:53 <timelyx> they say "Stop script" and "Continue"
Nov 28 11:04:05 <czr> makes sense
Nov 28 11:04:27 <czr> timelyx, any idea whether the original fi was localized within N or without?
Nov 28 11:04:44 <timelyx> 99.9% certain it was by/for N
Nov 28 11:04:49 <timelyx> technically N doesn't localize
Nov 28 11:05:00 <czr> hah. funny email
Nov 28 11:05:02 <timelyx> if you ignore the first "new" localization for those strings
Nov 28 11:05:13 <timelyx> i collected 15/16 localizations by talking to Nokians
Nov 28 11:05:25 <timelyx> and then lost the translation because i messed up trying to save it (notepad)
Nov 28 11:05:30 <czr> ah
Nov 28 11:06:04 <timelyx> gah
Nov 28 11:06:33 * timelyx sighs
Nov 28 11:06:37 <timelyx> jake is flooding me
Nov 28 11:06:43 <timelyx> there's now a bug that's CLOSED LATER
Nov 28 11:06:45 <timelyx> what does that mean?
Nov 28 11:09:05 <Jaffa> timelyx: indeed.
Nov 28 11:09:41 <Jaffa> Can someone try https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=806 with OS2008 and say whether or not the new, bundled osso-xterm tells the input method when character echoing is switched off?
Nov 28 11:10:02 <Segnale007> hi there
Nov 28 11:10:48 <timelyx> Jaffa: they suck
Nov 28 11:10:58 <timelyx> there's an X Terminal component right next to the Input method component
Nov 28 11:12:13 <timelyx> Jaffa: someone did claim they had "fixed" that "bug"
Nov 28 11:12:19 <timelyx> personally, I *used* that featurre
Nov 28 11:12:22 <inz> Jaffa, I tried to fix it in my version of osso-xterm, but couldn't find a way to get that info out of ncurses/vte
Nov 28 11:13:05 <Jaffa> inz: Yeah, I thought it might be tricky.
Nov 28 11:13:20 <Jaffa> timelyx: *mis*feature ;-)
Nov 28 11:14:49 <inz> Jaffa, I think character echoing is handled elsewhere
Nov 28 11:15:11 <inz> Jaffa, and thus the terminal doesn't have a clue
Nov 28 11:17:27 <inz> Jaffa, it seems they've fixed the easy way
Nov 28 11:17:35 <inz> Jaffa, i.e. specified _all_ input as "secret"
Nov 28 11:17:43 <timelyx> ?!
Nov 28 11:18:48 <inz> hmm, the thumb kb doesn't show asterisks
Nov 28 11:18:58 <timelyx> the thumb keyboard would learn too
Nov 28 11:19:06 <timelyx> so... um...
Nov 28 11:19:07 <inz> but I don't get any "suggestions" when using the vkb to type stuff
Nov 28 11:19:10 <timelyx> RESOLVED STUPID
Nov 28 11:20:45 <Jaffa> That's just dumb.
Nov 28 11:20:52 <GeneralAntilles> I wish somebody would just go through and whip the vkb behaviors into shape.
Nov 28 11:20:57 <timelyx> Jaffa: no, that's N
Nov 28 11:21:05 <timelyx> someone reports a bug, you're expect to "resolve" it
Nov 28 11:21:18 <timelyx> e.g., i reported a bug that changing sides in chess could lead to a crash
Nov 28 11:21:28 <timelyx> they removed the ability to switch sides while the game is running
Nov 28 11:21:32 <timelyx> look ma, no crash
Nov 28 11:23:33 <jeffmaurici> Pls, I'm confuse about: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/how_to_use_both_usb_networking_and_the_memory_card_at_the_same_time/
Nov 28 11:24:36 <jeffmaurici> It's possible: running FS from MMC and connecting via USBnet shared from PC?
Nov 28 11:28:51 * timelyx wonders how to get plain text in this stupid wiki
Nov 28 11:28:57 <Khertan_TheReal> Hi !
Nov 28 11:29:06 <Jaffa> timelyx: taken to extreme the device won't turn on at some point - no crashes, no security breaches, no flat battery, no lost data. Perfect!
Nov 28 11:29:08 <timelyx> jeffmaurici: reload that page?
Nov 28 11:29:24 <timelyx> Jaffa: it should happen :)
Nov 28 11:30:26 <Khertan_TheReal> lol i ve just see that maemo.org don't display the same ratings for application in list view or detail view
Nov 28 11:30:42 <timelyx> jeffmaurici: the article sure claims it is
Nov 28 11:32:16 <timelyx> Khertan_TheReal: nice
Nov 28 11:34:30 <Khertan_TheReal> someone have a n770 with an os2006 and the time to test if pygtkeditor work with it ?
Nov 28 11:34:54 <timelyx> does it have to turn on?
Nov 28 11:34:55 <waiting_for_n810> no "n" in 770 ;)
Nov 28 11:35:02 <timelyx> btw, what waiting_for_n810 said
Nov 28 11:35:22 <Khertan_TheReal> it seems i ve found an other bug on the os2008 beta ... my nokia reboot for the second time this morning ... withou application launched ... except gpesummary in applet
Nov 28 11:35:38 * timelyx grumbles
Nov 28 11:35:43 <Khertan_TheReal> so an nokia 770 ? :)
Nov 28 11:35:51 <timelyx> right
Nov 28 11:35:55 <timelyx> i can't believe someone used the word synergy in a bug comment
Nov 28 11:35:57 <waiting_for_n810> pygtkeditor ... if i remember correctly I could not install it on my 770 because some packets where missing
Nov 28 11:36:15 <timelyx> packets? heh
Nov 28 11:36:17 <Khertan_TheReal> ?
Nov 28 11:36:25 <Khertan_TheReal> it s only require pymaemo
Nov 28 11:36:30 <timelyx> ok, my 770 is booting
Nov 28 11:36:34 <timelyx> happy hands
Nov 28 11:36:34 <waiting_for_n810> just gimme a minute
Nov 28 11:36:40 <timelyx> oh
Nov 28 11:36:46 <timelyx> but i'd need to know my wifi password
Nov 28 11:36:47 * waiting_for_n810 goes downstairs to catch his 770
Nov 28 11:37:06 <Khertan_TheReal> timelyx and waiting_for_n810 > try with the version available on my website : http://khertan.net/
Nov 28 11:37:21 <db48x> timelyx: it's just a little retconning
Nov 28 11:37:49 <waiting_for_n810> k wait
Nov 28 11:37:56 <waiting_for_n810> got to download that ;)
Nov 28 11:38:30 <Khertan_TheReal> pffff maemo.org is very slow
Nov 28 11:39:01 <waiting_for_n810> lets hope the browser does not crash...
Nov 28 11:39:13 <waiting_for_n810> man i've got to get a new tablet :/
Nov 28 11:40:24 <waiting_for_n810> hmpf
Nov 28 11:40:27 <dpb_> I wonder if I'll use the N810 more than my old 770..
Nov 28 11:40:28 <Khertan_TheReal> ?
Nov 28 11:40:39 <Khertan_TheReal> dpb_ > like many of us :)
Nov 28 11:40:40 <timelyx> ok, password set
Nov 28 11:40:42 <timelyx> trying ot connect
Nov 28 11:40:42 <waiting_for_n810> microb got an error
Nov 28 11:40:47 <Khertan_TheReal> lol
Nov 28 11:40:56 <Khertan_TheReal> on package download ?
Nov 28 11:41:03 <waiting_for_n810> the fucking n810 is fucking expensive >:(
Nov 28 11:41:18 <waiting_for_n810> nope on loading http://khertan.net/
Nov 28 11:41:21 <waiting_for_n810> :p
Nov 28 11:41:28 <waiting_for_n810> ahh btw
Nov 28 11:41:32 <GeneralAntilles> Just buy an N800 for super cheap, then. :P
Nov 28 11:41:53 * VimS|gettingN800 points at his new nick ;)
Nov 28 11:42:03 <timelyx> ok, page loaded
Nov 28 11:42:04 <Khertan_TheReal> on khertan.net ?
Nov 28 11:42:09 <VimS|gettingN800> mhm
Nov 28 11:42:13 <Khertan_TheReal> i ve checked domain and dns ok
Nov 28 11:42:23 <VimS|gettingN800> yeah microb on 770 sucks with xhtml
Nov 28 11:42:27 <timelyx> buy 2 n800s
Nov 28 11:42:31 <VimS|gettingN800> but im tryin opera now
Nov 28 11:42:36 <Khertan_TheReal> i ll come back in 10 min ...
Nov 28 11:42:42 <Khertan_TheReal> (my boss ... pfff)
Nov 28 11:42:45 <VimS|gettingN800> NO!! 1 n800 + navi + 2x 8gb SD-card ;P
Nov 28 11:42:48 <timelyx> make one a bthid for the other
Nov 28 11:43:02 <Khertan_TheReal> you could post the test on 770 on the chan ... i'll read the log :)
Nov 28 11:43:06 <Khertan_TheReal> thanks
Nov 28 11:43:19 <timelyx> unable to install
Nov 28 11:43:20 <VimS|gettingN800> k
Nov 28 11:43:28 <timelyx> requires python2.5, 2.5-hildon, 2.5-gtk2
Nov 28 11:43:40 <Khertan_TheReal> yes ... but s it s pymaemo
Nov 28 11:43:42 <dpb_> Oh yeah, need to buy a memory card for the N810 too.. so it will cost more than 99 euros.. *sigh*
Nov 28 11:43:50 <timelyx> how do i get that?
Nov 28 11:43:54 <Khertan_TheReal> and it should be available on 770, isn't it ?
Nov 28 11:43:56 <timelyx> pretend i've never met pymaemo?
Nov 28 11:43:59 <timelyx> oh wait, i've never met pymaemo
Nov 28 11:44:03 <Khertan_TheReal> lol
Nov 28 11:44:10 <dpb_> heh
Nov 28 11:45:33 <timelyx> pymaemo no packages found
Nov 28 11:45:37 * VimS|gettingN800 slaps dpb_  with an n810 discount-code from maemo.org
Nov 28 11:45:38 <timelyx> if you want me to do something
Nov 28 11:45:43 <timelyx> it needs to be much more idiot proof
Nov 28 11:45:54 <dpb_> VimS|gettingN800 :)
Nov 28 11:45:57 <VimS|gettingN800> 429€ on amazon.de
Nov 28 11:46:16 <VimS|gettingN800> :(
Nov 28 11:49:27 <rocco> how possible is it to get the n800 to plug into a rj45 socket?
Nov 28 11:49:41 * czr knew that today was not a good day to wake up
Nov 28 11:50:39 <rocco> i mean through a usb->rj45 adapter
Nov 28 11:50:52 * VimS|gettingN800 has no idea
Nov 28 11:50:54 <rocco> presumably I can load a custom kernel module to control it?
Nov 28 11:51:00 <VimS|gettingN800> czr: what's up ?
Nov 28 11:51:12 <czr> VimS|gettingN800? Do I know you? :-)
Nov 28 11:51:21 <czr> "same old".
Nov 28 11:51:27 <VimS|gettingN800> i guess not
Nov 28 11:51:56 <VimS|gettingN800> * czr knew that today was not a good day to wake up <- just wanted to know why :)
Nov 28 11:51:58 <inz> czr, "everyone knows the monkey..."
Nov 28 11:53:04 <VimS|gettingN800> Khertan: PyGTKEditor seems to work fine on my Nokia 770 with OS2006 and Phyton 2.5  installed
Nov 28 11:54:26 <czr> inz, I know too many of them, makes it difficult to differentiate :-)
Nov 28 11:54:26 <VimS|gettingN800> but i dunno python so i can't code anything with it ;)
Nov 28 11:55:01 <czr> VimS|gettingN800, ah. I will explain then. I got a long email with a lot of issues to fix in the training material that I'm working on. Some of the issues were less than clear. Hence the slight .. blueness.
Nov 28 11:55:28 <inz> czr, at least you got _some_ feedback ;)
Nov 28 11:55:31 <czr> the ironic part of course is that all of the issues have existed in the material for 2 years now.
Nov 28 11:55:38 <czr> inz, indeed :-)
Nov 28 11:55:43 * czr should be happy
Nov 28 11:55:56 <czr> but all I can think of is the "important motivational comic strip" :-)
Nov 28 11:56:02 <Khertan_TheReal> re
Nov 28 11:56:08 <VimS|gettingN800> o_O
Nov 28 11:56:29 <Khertan_TheReal> timelyx > so for pymaemo on 770 i ll look where u can download it
Nov 28 11:56:43 * VimS|gettingN800 deinstalls pyGTKEditor
Nov 28 11:57:12 <timelE61i> Send a msg to timelyx
Nov 28 11:57:16 <czr> "important motivational comic strip" : http://matin.maapallo.org/site.pl/selain/?c=dilbert&i=2258
Nov 28 11:57:51 <Khertan_TheReal> timelyx > do u have the extra repository ?
Nov 28 11:58:30 <VimS|gettingN800> http://www.gronmayer.com/it/ <-  very good repository-list
Nov 28 11:58:37 <Khertan_TheReal> VimS|gettingN800 > thanks for your test ... so i can add it to the maemo.org/downloads site
Nov 28 11:59:14 <VimS|gettingN800> jepp but don't forget i've got phyton 2.5 package installed ;)
Nov 28 11:59:18 <timelE61i> Dunno
Nov 28 12:00:10 <Khertan_TheReal> VimS|gettingN800 > yes but's if you have the extra repository it should install it so :)
Nov 28 12:00:30 <VimS|gettingN800> k
Nov 28 12:01:52 <Khertan_TheReal> someone use gpesummary on the beta n800 OS2008 ? my tablett reboot 2 time this morning with only gpesummary as applet and no application loaded
Nov 28 12:02:12 <Khertan_TheReal> i don't know if there is a link ...
Nov 28 12:05:33 <Don^> hmm
Nov 28 12:05:37 <Khertan_TheReal> pffff it s boring to enter informations for each itos all time !
Nov 28 12:05:38 <Don^> damn. i need to buy another n800.
Nov 28 12:06:34 <Khertan_TheReal> miam miam time :)
Nov 28 12:06:39 <Khertan_TheReal> see u later
Nov 28 12:12:36 <Don^> hmm
Nov 28 12:12:38 <Don^> wondering
Nov 28 12:12:48 <Don^> if there a possibility to get a nice clean install files for the mmc somewhere?
Nov 28 12:13:04 <Don^> since i understood that it would be possible to boot the device from mmc?
Nov 28 12:13:28 <astro76> Don^, http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/
Nov 28 12:13:29 <pupnik> there is howto for the transferring of filesystem to-on mmc
Nov 28 12:13:45 <lardman> czr: I tried your suggestion to separate the declaration of the fd_set variables, still segfaults
Nov 28 12:14:04 <czr> lardman, what about using fd+1 for first param of select?
Nov 28 12:14:11 <pupnik> if is wanting the clean filesystem having then flashing-re the OS before multiboot
Nov 28 12:14:13 <czr> and yeah, the separate thing shouldn't really affect anything
Nov 28 12:14:14 <pupnik> multiboot?
Nov 28 12:14:15 <_Monkey> i think multiboot is "LILO supreme being - 5th element - protect *you*" http://maemo.org/community/wiki/HowTo_EASILY_Partition_your_MMC_card
Nov 28 12:14:25 <pupnik> hrm is not complete howto
Nov 28 12:14:41 <czr> hrm = hello? read manual?
Nov 28 12:14:54 <pupnik> :)
Nov 28 12:15:07 <Don^> pupnik: yep. the problem is that my device is not booting ;) was wondering if i can get it booting from mmc /wo a working system on hand at the moment.
Nov 28 12:15:10 <Don^> :D
Nov 28 12:15:20 <pupnik> Nokia is Electronic, supersonic.
Nov 28 12:15:25 <Don^> since re-flashing is not working...
Nov 28 12:15:27 <Don^> or flashing in general
Nov 28 12:15:35 <vikramb11> anybody hacked maemo connectivity ...
Nov 28 12:15:35 <czr> pupnik, do the locomotive?
Nov 28 12:15:35 <pupnik> oh that's not good.
Nov 28 12:16:01 <vikramb11> i mean the libconic / icd etc ,...
Nov 28 12:16:03 <Don^> pupnik: aye. "To flash the bootloader, you have to supply the X-Loader image
Nov 28 12:16:04 <Don^> "
Nov 28 12:16:24 <Don^> and trying to flash just the bootloader Flashing bootloader... Sending request 0x50 failed! Unable to get error strings: Connection timed out
Nov 28 12:16:30 <Don^> so i'm pretty fecked now i guess.
Nov 28 12:16:31 <Don^> :D
Nov 28 12:16:51 <vikramb11> want to know whether maemo has  used "gnome network manager" ??
Nov 28 12:17:14 <inz> What is gnome network manager?
Nov 28 12:17:30 <czr> vikramb11, no
Nov 28 12:17:39 <czr> inz, the ultimate evil in network damagement
Nov 28 12:18:08 <czr> vikramb11, maemo has it's own connectivity "system"
Nov 28 12:18:09 <inz> czr, yeah, I just though NetworkManager was a cross DE freedesktop.org project, but remembered wrongly
Nov 28 12:18:39 <czr> I guess the KDE people don't want to accept crap even if it comes via fd.o ;-)
Nov 28 12:18:45 * czr hides & runs
Nov 28 12:19:25 <czr> smoke and then back to work. /me puts on the "meh"-cap.
Nov 28 12:20:55 <pupnik> sorry Don^ you have n800 right
Nov 28 12:21:17 <lardman> czr: /me hides head in shame, may well be due to my poor error checking in fact
Nov 28 12:22:11 <pupnik> czr helped lardman wif somethin?
Nov 28 12:22:21 <lardman> fd_set
Nov 28 12:22:24 * pupnik watches like a cat looking at PC assembly
Nov 28 12:22:47 <alterego> cat's do that?
Nov 28 12:23:16 <pupnik> cats are funny :)
Nov 28 12:23:37 <pupnik> i have pic
Nov 28 12:23:53 <alterego> Urgh ..
Nov 28 12:24:29 * alterego stares at his workstation machine blankly as he decides where to re-enter his current work project.
Nov 28 12:26:37 <alterego> I've been dreaming about coding again recently (used to happen a few years ago), it's a pain coding something, then waking up and having to do it again.
Nov 28 12:26:48 <zerojay> lol
Nov 28 12:27:15 <lardman> hmm, I can't get a term any more. I get "stdin: is not a tty" over ssh, and the built-in term fails too
Nov 28 12:27:42 <alterego> Set "TERM" to vt100 or something.
Nov 28 12:27:49 <czr> lardman, ah, you found it? cool.
Nov 28 12:27:56 <lardman> alterego: no, it's just stopped working
Nov 28 12:28:09 <czr> pupnik, hard to believe, isn't it? :-)
Nov 28 12:28:16 <alterego> I must have missed something because I don't know what you're doing ;)
Nov 28 12:28:19 <unique311> whats the location of the display configuration file for os2008?
Nov 28 12:28:30 <lardman> czr: I'd forgotten to error check opening the dsp task, which fails more often than not
Nov 28 12:28:30 <alterego> unique311, display configuration file?
Nov 28 12:28:43 <czr> lardman, ah. "oops" :-)
Nov 28 12:28:44 <unique311> like a xorg.conf
Nov 28 12:28:56 <czr> "no one will ever need to check the result of this malloc/open/write/read" :-)
Nov 28 12:29:07 <lardman> czr: problem with using someone else's code, as mine always has a check, etc.
Nov 28 12:29:11 <czr> although checking for malloc errors is quite futile in most cases
Nov 28 12:29:16 * czr nods
Nov 28 12:29:44 <lardman> right, reboot has solved the tty issue
Nov 28 12:30:05 <alterego> unique311, I don't believe there is one.
Nov 28 12:30:55 <unique311> So how is the display configured?
Nov 28 12:31:11 <czr> timelyx, someone else complained about the docs opening in separate windows too :-)
Nov 28 12:31:26 <czr> timelyx, which means that I'm able to get rid of that crap finally ;-)
Nov 28 12:31:35 <lardman> crap, killed it again
Nov 28 12:32:04 <lardman> looks like it doesn't like my dsp_dld -p with the madmp3dec.o task ready to load
Nov 28 12:32:38 <czr> lardman, is the .o task going to the dsp?
Nov 28 12:32:54 <czr> also, is it something you've cooked up, or just using something that already exists?
Nov 28 12:33:02 <czr> (i.e., source or closed?)
Nov 28 12:33:07 <alterego> unique311, there's a special omap X server. Who knows :P
Nov 28 12:33:26 <czr> alterego, if it's kdrive based, then the config is for build-time only. normally kdrives don't have runtime conf files.
Nov 28 12:33:31 <alterego> unique311, check out 'Xomap --help'
Nov 28 12:33:42 <lardman> czr: yes .o to dsp, something I was sent and am modifying to get it to work, open source
Nov 28 12:33:47 <unique311> thanks.
Nov 28 12:33:53 <czr> lardman, cool.
Nov 28 12:34:00 <alterego> Cool, I can make my display monochrome.
Nov 28 12:34:02 <czr> lardman, what do you use to build it?
Nov 28 12:34:13 <Spakman_> anyone else hit a problem on OS2008 where pressing the centre button doesn't seem to work when you try to unlock?
Nov 28 12:34:26 <czr> alterego, if you step on it, you can go a step further and make it unchrome :-)
Nov 28 12:34:33 <alterego> Hah
Nov 28 12:34:38 <vikramb11> czr:  thanks ! any one place to get all connectivity related source tar ball !
Nov 28 12:34:39 <czr> or nonochrome
Nov 28 12:34:40 <alterego> Spakman_, yes, that is a known bug.
Nov 28 12:34:56 <alterego> Spakman_, you'll need to take the battery out and turn the device on again.
Nov 28 12:34:58 <czr> vikramb11, start by reading the 4.0 sdk how-tos on connectivity first
Nov 28 12:35:06 <Spakman_> ta alterego, I won't bother filing it
Nov 28 12:35:16 <lardman> czr: Ti Linux toolchain
Nov 28 12:35:18 <czr> vikramb11, on maemo.org -> documentation -> maemo 4.0 -> howtos -> and so on. there's a long list of docs there.
Nov 28 12:35:26 <Spakman_> alterego: BTW, spotted your .install file for Ruby, nice one!
Nov 28 12:35:26 <czr> lardman, ah. thought so.
Nov 28 12:35:37 <alterego> Spakman_, thanks :)
Nov 28 12:35:39 <czr> lardman, is it any good?
Nov 28 12:35:45 <vikramb11> czr yea i saw and  checked 2.x 3.x and 4.x
Nov 28 12:36:04 <pupnik> hrmph, still Nov 28 over here
Nov 28 12:36:16 <vikramb11> czr there is a arch diagram on 2.x for connectivity ..but missing in later versions... is that still hold good ?
Nov 28 12:36:38 <czr> vikramb11, I have no idea. most of the 4.0 stuff that I've looked through is not really 4.0 pure either :-)
Nov 28 12:36:47 <lardman> czr: It produces code :)
Nov 28 12:37:02 <czr> vikramb11, if you find bugs / something missing in the howtos, file a bug report (see the "help improve this page" link at the bottom of each howto)
Nov 28 12:37:13 <czr> lardman, "fair enough" :-)
Nov 28 12:37:15 <lardman> czr: Or do you mean the mp3 decoder? In which case I don't know as it doesn't seem to do anything (yet)
Nov 28 12:37:33 <czr> lardman, neh, you pretty much got the gist of what I meant
Nov 28 12:37:41 <Segnale007> hi guys
Nov 28 12:38:43 <vikramb11> czr  ok. So what all parts of connectivity module are open . i felt that icd (daemon) is proprietary ?
Nov 28 12:39:01 <lardman> well it just blocks at the select() call now, so looks like the DSP isn't asking for data
Nov 28 12:39:03 <czr> vikramb11, I have no idea, haven't gone that way.
Nov 28 12:39:04 <Spakman_> alterego: is there anything special I need to do to package up a ruby-maemo program?
Nov 28 12:39:11 <Spakman_> (I guess not)
Nov 28 12:39:17 <czr> Spakman_, ask alterego
Nov 28 12:39:22 <czr> ah, sry, :-)
Nov 28 12:39:26 * czr should get replacement eyes
Nov 28 12:39:36 <vikramb11> czr ok no probs.
Nov 28 12:39:54 <Spakman_> czr: :)
Nov 28 12:49:20 <Don^> pupnik: yup. i have n800.
Nov 28 12:49:53 <pupnik> you flashing with out power cable plugged-in, and holding the home button while powerup?
Nov 28 12:50:00 <pupnik> i think that was the procedure
Nov 28 12:50:01 <Spakman_> how can I run a command automatically on boot?
Nov 28 12:51:23 <pupnik> bootscripts?
Nov 28 12:52:24 <Don^> pupnik: yup. i flashed it ok, but it fails always in the same step.
Nov 28 12:54:00 <pupnik> _Monkey: bootscripts are a way to run stuff when your Tablet boots, some xamples here: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~jimc/nokia770/hacking.html
Nov 28 12:54:00 <_Monkey> OK, pupnik.
Nov 28 12:54:26 <pupnik> Spakman_: try that page
Nov 28 12:54:55 <vikramb11> any idea is the url is latest/outdated : https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/
Nov 28 12:55:46 <Don^> damn. I'll just get a new device. :D
Nov 28 13:30:04 <alterego> Strange how the most interesting emails end in my junk folder :/
Nov 28 13:30:42 <dpb_> Change your junk folder to be the default one? :P
Nov 28 13:30:43 <_Monkey> dpb_: that doesn't look right
Nov 28 13:30:50 <alterego> Heh
Nov 28 13:30:57 * dpb_ kicks _Monkey 
Nov 28 13:31:43 <alterego> Heh, hotmail is using some weird default .NET error page.
Nov 28 14:13:51 <alterego> Anyone purchased those "scratch proof" display protectors?
Nov 28 14:14:09 <alterego> Are they worth the price? I'm half tempted just to buy a large sheet and make my own ..
Nov 28 14:14:57 <alterego> At least then I can make them slightly bigger so the edges are under the front facia.
Nov 28 14:19:48 <lardman> alterego: I just go without and don't use it on the beach
Nov 28 14:20:37 <lardman> though in this country there's more chance of it getting wet from the rain, then lost in the mud on the beach than getting sand in it
Nov 28 14:20:48 <lardman> on it
Nov 28 14:22:11 <Mikho> Would somebody know a c library I could use to calculate checksums of byte strings?
Nov 28 14:22:59 <lardman> any particular checksum?
Nov 28 14:23:07 <Mikho> almost any would do
Nov 28 14:23:14 <lardman> you may as well write your own, they are quite small
Nov 28 14:23:44 <lardman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_redundancy_check would be a start to look for a piece of code
Nov 28 14:24:39 <czr> Mikho, for what purpose btw?
Nov 28 14:24:44 <lardman> by write your own I meant write a function/use a function, rather than look for a library. I wasn't suggesting making up your own one :)
Nov 28 14:24:46 <czr> maybe I can recommend something
Nov 28 14:25:59 <Mikho> for checking if arbitrarily long byte streams are likely to be equal
Nov 28 14:26:24 <Mikho> not for error detection
Nov 28 14:26:37 <czr> hmm. what kind of byte streams?
Nov 28 14:26:54 <czr> i.e., you know anything about their content before hand? text /binary?
Nov 28 14:27:16 <fysa> anyone here testing modest?
Nov 28 14:27:17 <czr> what you're looking for is a hashing algorithm really (non-cryptographic probably)
Nov 28 14:27:18 <Mikho> no
Nov 28 14:27:25 <Mikho> hmm
Nov 28 14:27:42 <czr> Mikho, look into "fast hashing functions" in wikipedia. there's a lot of them
Nov 28 14:28:00 <fysa> yes, that's really the only way.
Nov 28 14:28:04 <Mikho> ok, I'll look into that. Thanks
Nov 28 14:28:21 <czr> Mikho, what is the purpose of testing for this likelyness btw?
Nov 28 14:28:28 <czr> "maybe I can help" :-)
Nov 28 14:29:59 <fysa> XOR could work
Nov 28 14:30:32 <Mikho> it's for detecting whether there have been modifications to two data entities that are supposed to be equal
Nov 28 14:31:19 <alterego> lardman, I'm more scared of it being scratched by the stylus. The current screen protector is, well, f*cked :)
Nov 28 14:31:22 <Mikho> like, one might get the same data from more than one sources, and the program should detect if one is modified
Nov 28 14:31:56 <fysa> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Md5sum
Nov 28 14:32:18 <fysa> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cksum
Nov 28 14:32:29 <Mikho> hmm
Nov 28 14:32:37 <lardman> alterego: you mean the thing that came on it?
Nov 28 14:33:00 <fysa> The cksum command can be used to compare a suspect file copied or communicated over noisy transmission lines against an exact copy of a trusted file.
Nov 28 14:33:09 <alterego> lardman, yeah. It's starting to peel on one edge a bit too much and there's a bubble too ..
Nov 28 14:33:22 <lardman> alterego: I've never used one on any of my devices, if I feel the stylus scratching I stop and wipe it. I don't have any issues seeing the screen through my scratch marks ;)
Nov 28 14:33:44 <fysa> it doesn't matter which hashing mechanism you use.
Nov 28 14:33:50 <alterego> lardman, I don't either. I just want it to stay in good nik ;)
Nov 28 14:33:56 <Mikho> ok, I think I'll manage with these
Nov 28 14:34:27 <fysa> you are essentially representing an arbitrarily long string of data with 16, 32, 64 or 256 characters.
Nov 28 14:34:30 <alterego> Mikho, when you say stream are you using TCP/IP ?
Nov 28 14:34:46 <alterego> Because TCP/IP has checksums embedded into it for that exact reason ..
Nov 28 14:34:54 <fysa> any change to that string of data will result in the representation being altered.
Nov 28 14:35:02 <fysa> so just pick whichever is fastest in your situation.
Nov 28 14:36:01 <fysa> sounds like he's toying with P2P concepts
Nov 28 14:36:12 <Mikho> yes, i know
Nov 28 14:36:21 <alterego> Hmm. Maybe look into how bittorrent does it them.
Nov 28 14:36:36 <fysa> bittorrent uses SHA
Nov 28 14:36:45 <alterego> They have hashes (SHA?) for complete file and also for blocks.
Nov 28 14:36:50 <Mikho> it's not about transmission errors but differences in data made by users
Nov 28 14:37:05 <fysa> which is about twice as slow as MDA, which itself is about twice as slow as XOR64
Nov 28 14:37:08 <Mikho> timestamp is really not good enough
Nov 28 14:37:14 <fysa> sorry, md5
Nov 28 14:37:16 <alterego> Well, are you trying to find the differences or just want to know if there are differences.
Nov 28 14:37:57 <Mikho> just to know if there are differences
Nov 28 14:38:03 <fysa> unless you have some rsync/diff-type functions on both sides, you won't be able to easily extraopolate what those differences are.
Nov 28 14:38:25 <alterego> Mikho, then send a hash with each block of data.
Nov 28 14:38:25 <fysa> and no, timestamp is never good enough for such a thing.
Nov 28 14:39:01 <Mikho> that's what I'm planning to do :)
Nov 28 14:39:11 <lardman> I guess it depends on how sure you want to be that the records are the same, is the probability of different data producing same hash inversely proportional to the time taken to calculate the hash?
Nov 28 14:39:27 <czr> Mikho, what kind of protections are you planning against?
Nov 28 14:39:41 <czr> or "modifications"
Nov 28 14:39:56 <fysa> right.  the complexity of your hash algorithm is a trade-off between speed and accuracy into oblivion.
Nov 28 14:39:57 <Mikho> one server has one data and another might have some other data about the same subject
Nov 28 14:40:14 <czr> if the data of same size on both?
Nov 28 14:40:15 <fysa> why not just use rsync?
Nov 28 14:40:34 <alterego> svn ftw!
Nov 28 14:40:38 <czr> also, does data change completely when it changes, or partially? and do you care? (ie, how large is each data)
Nov 28 14:41:01 <Mikho> if the data is the same, fine, but if it's the same, the program should have some way of telling the user it has several versions of the data
Nov 28 14:41:36 <czr> use sha1
Nov 28 14:41:38 <timeless> help
Nov 28 14:41:43 <timeless> anyone here familiar w/ videoForLinux?
Nov 28 14:41:54 <Mikho> *if it's different, the program blabla
Nov 28 14:42:09 <lardman> Mikho: why would the data be the same?
Nov 28 14:42:18 <alterego> timeless, partially. V4L is it's acronym ;)
Nov 28 14:42:29 <czr> Mikho, for each data, store (size-of-data, md5-of-data-content, version-id/timestamp-when-added, data)
Nov 28 14:42:30 <alterego> timeless, I've read the kernel text on the subject too.
Nov 28 14:42:43 <czr> in order to compare data entries, you start with size and md5
Nov 28 14:42:44 <timeless> maemo uses it, right?
Nov 28 14:42:53 <Mikho> It'd be nice if there was a ready-made lib I could use
Nov 28 14:42:56 <czr> in order to display information about version, you use the version-id
Nov 28 14:43:37 <pupnik> HAY GUYS!  (crazy dog picture)  Howz it goin!?!?
Nov 28 14:43:41 * pupnik runs around 
Nov 28 14:43:43 <sKaBoy> timeless, yes (if i remember right)
Nov 28 14:43:47 <Mikho> lardman, the data is supposed to be the same. It might not be due to sync problems etc
Nov 28 14:43:49 <czr> Mikho, interestingly enough I'm working on almost the same problem. only I have > 100M hashes :-)
Nov 28 14:44:00 <Mikho> :)
Nov 28 14:44:02 <alterego> timeless, maemo uses it for the Radio in the N800 and for video in the N8X0's
Nov 28 14:44:54 <lardman> czr, Mikho: why not simply add a changed-since-last-sync flag, forget the md5sum for each record, then just check (e.g. md5sum) those that are flagged when the sync occurs?
Nov 28 14:45:15 <Mikho> because timestamps are unreliable
Nov 28 14:45:25 <czr> lardman, I'm just throwing ideas, the specification is not complete enough for me to give sane suggestions :-)
Nov 28 14:45:32 <lardman> not a time stamp, a I-have-changed flag
Nov 28 14:45:33 <alterego> Depends on the time stamp and who controls that data.
Nov 28 14:45:56 <lardman> well yes, but if the timestamp is inaccurate, the md5sum won't tell you which data to use
Nov 28 14:46:01 <lardman> still won't
Nov 28 14:46:05 <czr> lardman, also, if you have a multiple-master situation, then that becomes kind of difficult in conflicts :-)
Nov 28 14:46:16 <lardman> czr: yes, that is true
Nov 28 14:46:18 <czr> lardman, did you see my original suggestion? one with 4 elements
Nov 28 14:46:32 <czr> (size-of-data, md5-of-content, version-id, data)
Nov 28 14:46:38 <alterego> timeless, are you looking at webcam support in Flash?
Nov 28 14:46:54 <mouta> Hi, I've followed the maemo_4-0_tutorial. Everything seems to work except some warnings and missing files. How can I make it happy ? (Plugin desktop file not found, keybindings.rc, ui-window-*.wav)
Nov 28 14:47:01 <lardman> czr: yes, I was just thinking of removing the md5sum overhead from each record, move that to the syncing event, but depends on how many records are added vs sync'd I suppose
Nov 28 14:47:11 <alterego> mouta, those are normal. Just ignore them ;)
Nov 28 14:47:25 <czr> lardman, you'd only need to do md5 if sizes are the same and version-id is not.
Nov 28 14:47:30 <mouta> alterego, fine, thanks
Nov 28 14:47:34 <alterego> mouta if it helps. Close your eyes before starting the desktop and when running a program ;)
Nov 28 14:47:35 <czr> lardman, so the odds of that being required is quite small if done correctly
Nov 28 14:47:59 <lardman> czr: ah okay, so version-id is like my "I've changed" flag
Nov 28 14:48:05 <czr> smt like that yes
Nov 28 14:48:06 <mouta> alterego, I'll put my head in the fridge
Nov 28 14:48:12 <alterego> :)
Nov 28 14:48:21 <alterego> czr, revision number maybe?
Nov 28 14:48:36 <czr> I still don't understand the problem mikho is trying to solve, so I'll just leave it as "(semi)unique way of telling that this version of 'thing' is not the same as some other version of this same 'thing')
Nov 28 14:48:44 <czr> depends on the scenario
Nov 28 14:48:50 <lardman> :)
Nov 28 14:48:51 <czr> for single-master a number is sufficient
Nov 28 14:48:53 <alterego> I don't know the nature of how he expects this data to change. Whether it's iteration or just random (error tainted?)
Nov 28 14:49:10 <czr> for multi-master not since the same data can change in two different locations at the same time
Nov 28 14:49:37 <czr> but solving those problems is much more interesting than single-master scenarios :-)
Nov 28 14:49:44 <alterego> Heh
Nov 28 14:50:11 <alterego> You could also have a tainted flag on the data when it's coming in so you know you _should_ check for data corruption/changes.
Nov 28 14:50:11 <Mikho> Isn't it pretty simple actually? There's data, it's supposed to be the same, but it might not. Checksums can be calculated server-side and sent along with the data. The application then checks the two checksums and if they differ, it presents both sets of the data to the user
Nov 28 14:51:02 <alterego> Mikho, sure. It can be that simple. When you say "presents both sets of the data to the user" do you mean display it? Or just say these things differ?
Nov 28 14:51:17 <alterego> And then, are you displaying changes or the whole file? Is the data binary or text?
Nov 28 14:51:23 <Mikho> that's not in this problem area
Nov 28 14:51:41 <Mikho> for now I'd just like to detect
Nov 28 14:52:33 <alterego> Well, if it's a stream. Then just generate an MD5 for each chunk. Ask the server for the MD5 for that chunk. It replies. Compare the checksums and you're done.
Nov 28 14:53:37 <Mikho> yep. Already found the solution. I'll probably use md5 or sha1. But I haven't found a readymade lib yet
Nov 28 14:53:40 <alterego> You also have the option of recording status and re-requesting the specific chunk that does not match.
Nov 28 14:54:00 <alterego> Mikho, what language are you using?
Nov 28 14:54:02 <lardman> is there a link into the OMAP accelerators anywhere?
Nov 28 14:54:05 <Mikho> C/C++
Nov 28 14:54:11 <alterego> Mikho, it's all in OpenSSL I believe.
Nov 28 14:54:15 <Mikho> in maemo2.2
Nov 28 14:55:09 <czr> the hash accel is not used imho
Nov 28 14:55:14 <czr> or crypto accels
Nov 28 14:55:20 <lardman> czr: agreed, shame
Nov 28 14:55:27 <alterego> hash accel?
Nov 28 14:55:28 <_Monkey> hmmm... hash accel is not used imho
Nov 28 14:56:03 <czr> alterego, there's support for some crypto & hash algos on omap
Nov 28 14:56:14 <alterego> czr, ah. That's what I thought you meant. Neat.
Nov 28 14:56:22 <czr> but it's not used
Nov 28 14:56:31 <alterego> czr, is that not utilised in the kernel?
Nov 28 14:56:33 <czr> at least it wasn't when I last checked (1.0/770)
Nov 28 14:56:36 <czr> no
Nov 28 14:56:48 <czr> kernel doesn't expose hash/crypto to userspace anyway
Nov 28 14:56:51 <alterego> Hmm .. I thought the kernel had support for MD5, SHA1 ...
Nov 28 14:56:59 <czr> so libcrypto couldn't use it even if kernel supported
Nov 28 14:57:06 <czr> in software yes. and for VIA padlock
Nov 28 14:57:17 <alterego> Maybe write an OMAP module then ..
Nov 28 14:57:36 <czr> I think the issue was in the way that dma was mapped on the omap
Nov 28 14:57:45 <alterego> Hm
Nov 28 14:57:50 <czr> on via padlock it was easy as it was an instruction set extension
Nov 28 14:57:52 <czr> on omap not
Nov 28 14:57:56 <czr> it's a separate "cpu"
Nov 28 14:58:01 <alterego> Well, I'm gonna have a shower and head out. Later folks.
Nov 28 14:58:16 <czr> but as said, I'm not 100% about the situation now. checked that ages ago
Nov 28 14:59:32 <lardman> Another reason to look in the OMAP 2420 Technical Reference Manual
Nov 28 14:59:49 <lardman> ...if it were available to mere mortals
Nov 28 15:00:05 <pupnik> :/
Nov 28 15:00:21 <czr> lardman, getting that accel available to user space is going to be difficult
Nov 28 15:00:35 <czr> kernel might be doable, but that would be close to useless
Nov 28 15:00:52 <czr> since the kernel crypto layer is not really used. only kernel-side ipsec might benefit
Nov 28 15:01:22 <czr> and since it's asynchronous, I doubt that it would help much
Nov 28 15:02:43 <lardman> write your own lib to use it
Nov 28 15:03:20 <mouta> I'd like to render text as overlay (not in a (bordered) window) with pango, what should I read ?
Nov 28 15:04:37 <lardman> does the X1 licence require modifications to be made available in source form?
Nov 28 15:04:44 <lardman> s/X1/X11
Nov 28 15:05:37 <czr> lardman, ever tried to access dma-based engines directly from userspace? :-)
Nov 28 15:05:54 <lardman> I'm looking at it atm
Nov 28 15:05:58 <lardman> for the powervr
Nov 28 15:06:09 <czr> ah. heh then :-)
Nov 28 15:06:14 <lardman> but no, this is a learning experience :)
Nov 28 15:06:20 <czr> when you need testing, drop me a note ;-)
Nov 28 15:06:27 <lardman> czr: will do
Nov 28 15:06:54 * czr runs to get food and execute nap-time-sequence
Nov 28 15:07:04 <lardman> c ya
Nov 28 15:07:21 * lardman goes to do some shopping
Nov 28 15:07:24 <dpb_> Hmm, a nap would be nice..
Nov 28 15:07:46 <Tak> X11 license is like BSD license
Nov 28 15:12:40 <pupnik> xnap
Nov 28 15:27:31 <fysa> anyone here building modest?
Nov 28 15:34:38 <Spakman_> fysa: that's my plan for tonight :)
Nov 28 15:36:08 <sKaBoy> fysa, there are deb packages somewhere
Nov 28 15:36:24 <rocco> what's to stop us plugging a usb keyboard into the n800?
Nov 28 15:36:31 <rocco> as long as we have the kernel module?
Nov 28 15:37:04 <Tak> lack of usb host mode?
Nov 28 15:37:45 <rocco> how can we do usb networking ?
Nov 28 15:37:48 <Spakman_> sKaBoy: any idea where?
Nov 28 15:37:49 <_Monkey> any idea is the url is latest/outdated : https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/
Nov 28 15:37:50 <sKaBoy> fysa, http://modest.garage.maemo.org/repos/modest-chinook.install (don't know if it's official, a beta or something.. found it in google some days ago)
Nov 28 15:37:59 <rocco> I don't know a lot about usb to be honest?
Nov 28 15:38:04 <rocco> is it cos it'd be unpowered?
Nov 28 15:38:35 <lophyte> rocco, there's a usb networking howto on the maemo wiki
Nov 28 15:38:40 <rocco> i know
Nov 28 15:38:55 <rocco> what I'm saying is, how is usb networking different to a usb keyboard?
Nov 28 15:39:04 <Tak> heh, I think most things for chinook are pretty beta right now
Nov 28 15:39:14 <lophyte> because usb networking doesn't require the device to be in host mode
Nov 28 15:39:23 <lophyte> it works like a USB networking peripheral
Nov 28 15:39:26 <rocco> is that a hardware thing?
Nov 28 15:39:48 <lophyte> you have to install a custom kernel to enable usb host mode
Nov 28 15:39:56 <rocco> cool
Nov 28 15:40:01 <rocco> I was going to have a go with that
Nov 28 15:40:02 <sKaBoy> rocco, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.maemo.user/7826
Nov 28 15:40:16 <fysa> sKaBoy: oo, sanks
Nov 28 15:40:17 <lophyte> I haven't tested it yet but I've heard people say it works great
Nov 28 15:40:28 <lophyte> you just need to hack a cable for it
Nov 28 15:40:39 <Spakman_> sKaBoy: thanks a lot, installing Modest now :)
Nov 28 15:40:40 <rocco> cool
Nov 28 15:40:42 <rocco> COOL
Nov 28 15:40:49 <rocco> is that just on os2008?
Nov 28 15:41:36 <sKaBoy> fysa, Spakman_, it works fine for me :) report bugs if you find them! i think it's still beta!
Nov 28 15:42:03 <rocco> will that work on 2007 I wonder?
Nov 28 15:42:39 <sKaBoy> rocco, with 2007 you need to use another kernel.. check maemo-user or maemo-devel archives, there were a lot of threads about usb host mode
Nov 28 15:42:49 <rocco> thanks sKaBoy
Nov 28 15:42:56 <rocco> oh i so can't wait for 2008 now
Nov 28 15:43:28 <alterego> Why don't you just install the beta?
Nov 28 15:44:03 <Spakman_> sKaBoy: I will do, cheers
Nov 28 15:45:28 <rocco> alterego, I'm scared to
Nov 28 15:45:35 <rocco> lots of my lovely apps might break
Nov 28 15:45:53 <alterego> 2008 doesn't break any apps./
Nov 28 15:45:53 <rocco> do settings import/export ok from 07 to 08?
Nov 28 15:45:57 <rocco> like wireless settings?
Nov 28 15:46:04 <alterego> Dunno, I don't care much for settings.
Nov 28 15:46:07 <rocco> alterego, no it just deletes them all
Nov 28 15:46:31 <murrayc_> If you backup your settings it will probably restore them.
Nov 28 15:46:35 <alterego> You could always make a complete backup. Attempt to migrate. If you don't like it then revert back to the backup.
Nov 28 15:46:56 <rocco> you can do that?
Nov 28 15:47:00 <rocco> how?
Nov 28 15:47:14 <alterego> Several ways come to mind.
Nov 28 15:47:18 <alterego> Do you dual boot?
Nov 28 15:47:24 <rocco> heheh.alas no
Nov 28 15:47:33 <alterego> Hmm.
Nov 28 15:47:35 <rocco> I didn't know how to
Nov 28 15:47:41 <rocco> so I havn't ever done it
Nov 28 15:47:45 <rocco> I know it's possible
Nov 28 15:48:03 <alterego> Yeah, the instructions aren't really for the non technical minded.
Nov 28 15:48:10 <alterego> Well, Linux novices I mean ;)
Nov 28 15:48:17 <rocco> OI!
Nov 28 15:48:20 <alterego> :)
Nov 28 15:48:26 <rocco> i meant I havn't had a need to do it
Nov 28 15:48:29 <rocco> (yet)
Nov 28 15:49:07 <alterego> Well, during the dual boot process. You copy your current root filesystem to a partition on the SD card. That's probably the best backup to have ;)
Nov 28 15:49:39 <rocco> so i need one card to dual boot onto
Nov 28 15:49:48 <rocco> then the other to transfer everything onto
Nov 28 15:50:04 <alterego> Yeah, I use a 2G card 1G for storage/swap and the other 1G for OS
Nov 28 15:50:09 <rocco> ok
Nov 28 15:50:11 <alterego> That's the internal card.
Nov 28 15:50:20 <rocco> maybe I'll try dual booting tonight
Nov 28 15:50:33 <rocco> tbph i don't have much on there
Nov 28 15:50:36 <alterego> My external card is whatever happens to be in there. Generally a 4G with music or various SD cards that I use with my digital camera
Nov 28 15:50:42 <rocco> maybe I'll just backup settings and migrate
Nov 28 15:50:57 <rocco> is enabling root easy on os2008?
Nov 28 15:51:08 <alterego> We need users to send us pestering emails to force us to update our software ;)
Nov 28 15:51:30 <zoran> ah, you want angry users?
Nov 28 15:51:42 <alterego> There seems to be a large lack of motivation in the application developers at the moment. Not much updating going on ..
Nov 28 15:51:49 <alterego> Generally all you need is a re-compile ..
Nov 28 15:52:22 <zoran> the hype is on multimedia this days
Nov 28 15:52:40 <rocco> you've convinced me alterego
Nov 28 15:52:45 <rocco> os2008 tonight
Nov 28 15:52:46 <rocco> ;)
Nov 28 15:52:49 <alterego> :)
Nov 28 15:53:00 <rocco> can't wait for hostmode
Nov 28 15:53:29 <alterego> You know. It's one of those things I keep meaning to play with but haven't bothered yet. I might look into that tonight :D
Nov 28 15:53:32 <alterego> You've convinced me :)
Nov 28 15:53:44 <alterego> It's certainly functionality I'd like to play with ..
Nov 28 15:54:00 <rocco> i thought you were on about os2008 then
Nov 28 15:54:01 <rocco> heheh
Nov 28 15:54:05 <rocco> right back to work
Nov 28 15:54:06 <rocco> thanks guys
Nov 28 15:54:13 <alterego> See you
Nov 28 15:54:17 <rocco> thanks especially to you alterego
Nov 28 15:54:28 <alterego> Heh
Nov 28 15:54:37 <rocco> oh just outta interest......bluetoothkeyboard vs usb keyboard....wrt power
Nov 28 15:55:05 <alterego> BT keyboard has seperate batteries obviously. Probably last longer. It'll also make your device last longer.
Nov 28 15:55:22 <rocco> ko
Nov 28 15:55:24 <alterego> If you're plugged in most of the time. Then USB keyboards are dirt cheap.
Nov 28 15:55:37 <rocco> so usb keyboard will drain more
Nov 28 15:55:39 <rocco> yeh i guess so
Nov 28 15:55:41 <alterego> Yes
Nov 28 15:55:43 <rocco> thanks alterego
Nov 28 15:55:48 <alterego> np
Nov 28 16:00:59 <rich_dy> I just got an n800, and was able to install XChat.  The application installs correctly, but when it attempts to connect to any server, it will resolve the hostname correctly, but cannot make a connection -- it just ... sits there trying to connect.  Is this a known issue?
Nov 28 16:01:21 <pupnik> we need some whoop-dy in tabletland
Nov 28 16:01:29 <pupnik> some wow kickin mental detergent
Nov 28 16:02:32 <rghosh> sounds questionable
Nov 28 16:02:40 <zoran> rich_dy, irssi could be fine
Nov 28 16:03:59 <rich_dy> zoran: well, when I attempt to connect to IRC via the pidgin plugin, I also get the same problem -- just hangs on the connection.  Is there some library I might be missing?  I don't have any other net connection issues...I'm able to use other internet clients just fine, like the web browser and the other gaim plugins
Nov 28 16:04:51 <nooknook> hmm pidgin works fine for me on irc on my 810
Nov 28 16:04:58 <zoran> if I recall, xchat is irc client; pidgin goes as icq/etc
Nov 28 16:05:01 <nooknook> but i can't install xchat complains about missing libs
Nov 28 16:05:06 <nooknook> at leas via app manager
Nov 28 16:05:08 <alterego> rich_dy, sounds like firewall
Nov 28 16:05:45 <alterego> zoran, pidgin has an IRC plugin as well.
Nov 28 16:05:49 <zoran> k
Nov 28 16:06:01 <alterego> I actually use Pidgin over xchat because I don't like xchat on the device.
Nov 28 16:06:35 <rich_dy> alterego: i'll try on another network, but my other hosts on the network are able to connect to IRC just fine
Nov 28 16:06:38 <alterego> But I don't usually IRC from it.
Nov 28 16:07:14 <alterego> rich_dy, well. It's unlikely that they would both not work without some underlying network problem.
Nov 28 16:07:40 <rich_dy> right.  i'll float around downtown at lunch and try some other open networks to see if it's an issue with my router
Nov 28 16:08:21 <alterego> There are several OAP's in my area that block SSH O_O
Nov 28 16:08:24 <alterego> I find that infuriating.
Nov 28 16:09:16 <db48x> alterego: wow, that would suck
Nov 28 16:09:21 <alterego> Yeah
Nov 28 16:09:30 <db48x> "It's a trap!" maybe?
Nov 28 16:09:32 <alterego> It continually does.
Nov 28 16:10:01 <alterego> It's amusing because this place in particular attracts sysadmin and coder types.
Nov 28 16:10:05 <alterego> It's a big geek haven.
Nov 28 16:10:15 <db48x> good place to troll for passwords then
Nov 28 16:10:28 <alterego> That would be unethical :P
Nov 28 16:10:39 <alterego> I have enough of my own passwords anyway :P
Nov 28 16:10:40 <db48x> so is blocking ssh, imho
Nov 28 16:10:50 <zoran> who in a state of sane would surf that ap?
Nov 28 16:11:03 <alterego> Well, the alt ssh port isn't blocked.
Nov 28 16:11:07 <alterego> So I can do that.
Nov 28 16:11:30 <zoran> just 22?
Nov 28 16:11:55 <alterego> There are probably more ports blocked but that's the only one that effects me.
Nov 28 16:12:15 <zoran> application proxy?
Nov 28 16:12:21 <alterego> Anyhow, so I've moved from that cafe to a bar that has an encrypted OAP.
Nov 28 16:12:50 <alterego> They don't appear to block any ports so I'm happy :)
Nov 28 16:13:10 <alterego> Unfortunately trading good tea for beer.
Nov 28 16:13:45 <alterego> This town is missing a place that has free IA and _good_ coffee.
Nov 28 16:14:00 <alterego> There are good coffee places. Just no fscking internet.
Nov 28 16:14:22 <alterego> And data plans in the UK are amazingly horrible.
Nov 28 16:14:37 <lopz> hola
Nov 28 16:14:57 <Mikho> why are they horrible?
Nov 28 16:15:47 <alterego> Expensive.
Nov 28 16:16:35 <alterego> If they were competitive with cable prices. Say, £15 extra a month. I'd use it all the time.
Nov 28 16:17:12 <alterego> As it happens I get charged about £1 a megabyte. So it's not worth using it when you're never _that_ far away from an OAP.
Nov 28 16:18:01 <gla55_> paying per mbyte makes gprs/3g essentially useless for most things except very few low-data things
Nov 28 16:18:08 <alterego> Yeah
Nov 28 16:18:30 <alterego> I'd concievably use it for always on IM availability. But I've not as of yet.
Nov 28 16:19:00 <pupnik> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkx18kruRJs  PowerVR Mbx openGL demo #1
Nov 28 16:19:07 <hexa> here they charge 35cent / kilobyte so 51$ /MB lol
Nov 28 16:19:13 <hexa> er.. 5 cent / k
Nov 28 16:19:23 <gla55_> what good is 3g if it's going to cost you 2.4£ a minute to use it's potential
Nov 28 16:19:31 <alterego> hexa, yeah. I heard that America was worse ..
Nov 28 16:19:32 <hexa> and they advertise video conferencing application hahaha
Nov 28 16:19:38 <alterego> I didn't realise it was _that_ bad .. O_O
Nov 28 16:19:41 <lardman> pupnik: nice isn't it :)
Nov 28 16:19:48 <gla55_> i got 9.9e / 384kbit/s / month and i'm loving it
Nov 28 16:20:07 <alterego> gla55_, where do you live?
Nov 28 16:20:18 <hexa> A friend of mine works at a canadian cell company , telephone support , one guy browsed for 2 days and got a 15 000$ invoice
Nov 28 16:20:33 <gla55_> alterego: finland..
Nov 28 16:20:33 <pupnik> hahaha
Nov 28 16:20:33 <alterego> Heh
Nov 28 16:20:33 <_Monkey> well, finland is closed in July due to holidays. Please come back later ;)
Nov 28 16:20:38 <alterego> gla55_, figures :P
Nov 28 16:20:44 <alterego> gla55_, I so want to move out there :)
Nov 28 16:21:00 <gla55_> alterego: wait untill the winter is over
Nov 28 16:21:21 <alterego> Heh
Nov 28 16:21:44 <alterego> I was thinking of visiting in January. Suss out whether I could get work there or not.
Nov 28 16:23:18 <pumpkingod> hi, anyone know where I can find sendmail for maemo, or do I have to compile it myself?
Nov 28 16:23:34 <alterego> pumpkingod, you'll probably have to compile it yourself.
Nov 28 16:23:38 <pumpkingod> mmkay
Nov 28 16:23:40 <pumpkingod> thanks :)
Nov 28 16:23:53 <alterego> pumpkingod, make a package too and throw it into extras ;)
Nov 28 16:24:24 <Jaffa> s/extras/extras-devel/
Nov 28 16:24:40 <alterego> Yah
Nov 28 16:24:42 <alterego> That too.
Nov 28 16:25:21 <Khertan_TheReal> We need a server for maemo.org ...
Nov 28 16:25:22 <Khertan_TheReal> http://maemo.org/downloads/
Nov 28 16:25:35 <Khertan_TheReal> memcache handler: Failed to connect to localhost:11211.
Nov 28 16:29:34 <Khertan_TheReal> I dream about a small repository with a html front end, where user can add their package only by uploading a .deb and after a validation, their package appear magically in the repository ...
Nov 28 16:34:12 * alterego slaps Khertan_TheReal out of his dream land.
Nov 28 16:39:33 <nooknook> Any good QA apps for maemo. When i worked on the palm we had pose with Gremlins that just beat the hell out of your app, simulating user usage. Great for exposing bugs.
Nov 28 16:43:14 <pupnik> nooknook: that's an interesting idea - maybe any generic linux/x11 based app could be modified to that purpose
Nov 28 16:43:40 <alterego> Would be neat.
Nov 28 16:45:11 <nooknook> Cool yeh, i'd consider writing one, it's incredibly useful and greatly increases general stability of apps.  I think linux apps in general tend to be a bit flaky, a tool like that quickly exposes bugs. Perhaps i will, just starting on maemo dev i'll have to see what's available for doing such an app.
Nov 28 16:48:56 <alterego> I'm not sure how those kinds of things work. I'm only really used to writing functional and unit test suites :)
Nov 28 16:55:15 <nooknook> Yeh for your own for sure.  It's just nice to have the other to beat the hell out of it and find things that got missed but would show up later under use.  Also to find bugs in other apps where it's crashing but you can't consistenly reproduce it or some such.  With the palm emulator you could reproduce the steps it took to generate the crash, and it's been a while but i think even drop into the deubber at that point.  I might not be able to get the re
Nov 28 16:55:15 <nooknook> production going initially, but i think i will start working on something that at least can do some ui bashing.  Later try to work in being able to reproduce crashes.
Nov 28 16:56:08 <alterego> Cool
Nov 28 16:58:07 <|R> anyone having trouble getting pidgin on OS2008beta (n800) ? (complains about missing libgnutls13 and libgcrypt11?)
Nov 28 16:58:45 <alterego> |R, you're missing a repository. Don't ask me which one though ..
Nov 28 16:58:53 <|R> hehe :)
Nov 28 16:58:55 <alterego> Someone should get the author to fix his install file ..
Nov 28 16:59:47 <|R> http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/pidgin/ <- maybe this will fix it :)
Nov 28 17:02:47 <Jaffa> Khertan_TheReal: Is scp *really* that much of a hardship? My problems with extras have historically been the validation checks, not the actual mechanism of getting the deb file there.
Nov 28 17:03:16 <|R> ah maemohackers was missing i think...
Nov 28 17:06:00 <alterego> Jaffa, I could figure out how to upload to extras-devel. So I gave up and setup my own repository ..
Nov 28 17:06:33 <alterego> Jaffa, I thought it would be good anyway. As I plan on adding lots of packages (ruby extensions) for people. So it kind of seems worth while having my own ruby centric repository. IMO.
Nov 28 17:07:09 * Jaffa disagrees, if Debian and Ubuntu can cope with libperl-... and libruby-... why can't Maemo?
Nov 28 17:08:14 <Jaffa> upload to extras with dput is http://osdir.com/ml/handhelds.maemo.user/2006-09/msg00160.html
Nov 28 17:08:29 <Jaffa> upload to extras without dput is http://osdir.com/ml/handhelds.maemo.user/2006-09/msg00160.html
Nov 28 17:08:35 <Jaffa> _Monkey: upload to extras without dput?
Nov 28 17:08:35 <_Monkey> rumour has it upload to extras without dput is http://osdir.com/ml/handhelds.maemo.user/2006-09/msg00160.html
Nov 28 17:08:40 <Jaffa> Good _Monkey
Nov 28 17:09:10 <DanielLion> Morning
Nov 28 17:09:11 <_Monkey> aloha
Nov 28 17:09:33 <DanielLion> Testing out the n810 finally got mine.. LOVE it
Nov 28 17:16:49 <fysa> you upgrade from the n800?
Nov 28 17:17:12 <alterego> DanielLion, fortunate 500?
Nov 28 17:21:18 <pupnik> the world is composed of 10 kinds of people: those who have an N810 and those who aren't on speaking terms with those who have a N810
Nov 28 17:22:49 <DanielLion> Nopes
Nov 28 17:22:54 <truent> i asked this question last night but maybe we got some new blood in here.. short of learning every facet of dbus.. does anyone know of a way to connect to a DUMMY type AP named 'DEFAULT' via the command line?
Nov 28 17:24:38 <DanielLion> i just wish i could get TTLS working for our wifi netowrk.. it never finds the CA cert. even if i put it in the cert manager in the control panel
Nov 28 17:25:38 <DanielLion> at least the TTLS protocal is now in there
Nov 28 17:40:09 <|R> pupnik : haha 17 days, we're gonna make it ;)
Nov 28 17:42:07 <Jaffa> Bah, I'm on holiday next week - had hoped on using the GPS a little
Nov 28 17:42:20 * Jaffa can probably survive, though ;-)
Nov 28 17:44:52 <alterego> Jaffa, I feel your pain :)
Nov 28 17:45:03 <alterego> Jaffa, I'm just hoping for a neat Christmas present now ;)
Nov 28 17:49:17 <Sho_> The device has appeared on amazon.de now (for 429€) ... still not on nokia.de though :-)
Nov 28 17:49:39 <alterego> :/
Nov 28 17:53:37 <truent> ok does anyone know of a good/easy dbus tutorial that would help me in my quest to change the access point im connected to via command line
Nov 28 17:54:15 <pupnik> http://pupnik.de/CNN_Poll_07_11_28.png  :D
Nov 28 17:54:20 <Jaffa> alterego: I'm getting a new gadget bag next week for my birthday (reason for holiday) and no N810 to put in it :-/
Nov 28 17:54:46 <alterego> I could do with a new gadget bag.
Nov 28 17:55:01 <alterego> (The mens handbag) :D
Nov 28 17:55:42 <Jaffa> http://www.tumi.com/backpacks_messengers/t_tech_flow/category_search/gear_bag/product_detail/index.cfm?modelid=87480 (in black, imported from the US by a colleague)
Nov 28 17:55:58 <DanielLion> i find the slip case they gave was fine for the 810 being in my pocket
Nov 28 17:56:11 <alterego> Pretty
Nov 28 17:57:10 <alterego> Jaffa, magnetic? Is that safe? :D
Nov 28 17:57:21 * Jaffa 's a skinny chap and has phone/keys/wallet in pocket; also tend to carry around some painkillers/zomigtriptan, business cards etc.
Nov 28 17:57:39 <Jaffa> alterego: should be, it's a very soft magnet - but I've not put a device in to check yet :)
Nov 28 17:58:08 <alterego> I was just kidding. I think LCD's are pretty safe with magnets as are SD cards etc.
Nov 28 17:58:41 <the-FoX> hello
Nov 28 17:59:13 <pupnik> hmm, a purse would be funny
Nov 28 17:59:52 * pupnik looks at his samsonite bag
Nov 28 17:59:56 <Tak> DanielLion: yeah, I can't connect to our wifi either
Nov 28 17:59:59 <pupnik> it *is* a purse!
Nov 28 18:00:11 <Jaffa> alterego: indeed, humour recognised :)
Nov 28 18:01:49 <the-FoX> i try to get maemo-mobile mythtv running, but when connecting to the gms.py i get errors :( somebody succesfully got this working?
Nov 28 18:04:59 <DanielLion> i get ok with ttls and mschapv2 but because i can't pull down the cert. it won't let me connect
Nov 28 18:05:34 <DanielLion> i even saved out the cert from my mac and imported it into the cert. control panel
Nov 28 18:05:40 <DanielLion> that came in fine and i trusted it
Nov 28 18:06:18 <Tak> me too
Nov 28 18:14:58 <nooknook> I have an 810, as near as I can tell this isn't a Host type usb port, does anyone know for sure? I'm not to familiar on Host ports, I have one on my Zaurus and its different size.
Nov 28 18:15:38 <timeless> N810 (note the N) has micro usb
Nov 28 18:15:44 <timeless> micro usb supports usb otg
Nov 28 18:15:45 <timeless> otg?
Nov 28 18:15:45 <_Monkey> well, otg is a supplement to the USB 2.0 specification which allows USB devices to be hosts as well as slaves, controlling power, data and master/slave negotiation
Nov 28 18:16:09 <timeless> i've tried to send some complaints to nokia for their total failure to document these bits
Nov 28 18:16:18 <timeless> but oh well
Nov 28 18:17:28 <nooknook> ahh okay thanks. So perhaps if we had a certain cable we could use it in host mode?
Nov 28 18:17:58 <bill20r3> in theory, barring driver issues.
Nov 28 18:19:16 <nooknook> cool thank you for clarifications
Nov 28 18:19:36 <oil_> _Monkey: thank you very much of that information. I was just swearing why change the usb port. but now it makes sense.
Nov 28 18:19:37 <_Monkey> no worries oil_
Nov 28 18:20:39 * timeless boggles
Nov 28 18:20:43 <timeless> monkey had a decent response?
Nov 28 18:20:55 <timeless> oil: monkey's a bot btw...
Nov 28 18:21:08 <timeless> _monkey: have a bot snack
Nov 28 18:21:08 <_Monkey> :)
Nov 28 18:21:34 <oil_> timeless: I was wondering of the rather quick response :)
Nov 28 18:21:58 <timeless> oil: amusingly, my responses can be about as fast and useless as bot's :)
Nov 28 18:22:15 <timeless> (check logs and watch me seem to automatically clean out entries from _monkey :)
Nov 28 18:22:28 <timeless> s/bot's/bots'/
Nov 28 18:22:54 <oil_> timeless: well. this brings us to the everlasting question. what is the difference of the true nerd and a bot? :)
Nov 28 18:23:08 <mgedmin> the bot's source code is more readable?
Nov 28 18:23:10 <fysa> mmm leftover stuffing
Nov 28 18:24:46 <timeless> fysa: tease!
Nov 28 18:24:57 <timeless> some of us unfortunate souls are on the wrong side of the ocean
Nov 28 18:25:28 <oil_> mgedmin: might be. and bot's do not disturb themselves with internet porn^h^h^h^h knowledge.
Nov 28 18:25:36 <fysa> anyone on any side of anything without stuffing is definitely on the wrong side.
Nov 28 18:25:55 <timeless> oil: i wouldn't go that far
Nov 28 18:26:02 <timeless> i'm sure there's a but somewhere that deals in that stuff :)
Nov 28 18:26:43 <fysa> naughty bots swapping ports and banging bits
Nov 28 18:27:47 * timeless looks for contact info for murrayc
Nov 28 18:28:58 <oil_> well. we have to admit that most of the x-rated emails come from the bots. there might be artificial intelligence after all :)
Nov 28 18:29:45 <timeless> hrm
Nov 28 18:29:57 <timeless> can someone here name a nokia app that uses tabs for its main window?
Nov 28 18:30:12 <oil_> ok. back to the business. it there a good way to start a script after connecting to a wlan ap?
Nov 28 18:31:01 <pupnik> xmaeme
Nov 28 18:31:04 <pupnik> timeless
Nov 28 18:31:05 <_Monkey> timeless is the microb architect
Nov 28 18:31:14 <timeless> pupnik: nokia
Nov 28 18:31:21 <pupnik> oh sry
Nov 28 18:32:33 <fysa> you're the microbian man, timeless?  the one that will give us font/proxy settings and kinetic scrolling and/or thumb-friendly scrollbar? :)
Nov 28 18:33:03 <timeless> no,no,no,no :)
Nov 28 18:33:10 <timeless> actually thumb friendly scrollbar? maybe
Nov 28 18:33:12 <db48x> fysa: you can change the font and proxy settings using about:config
Nov 28 18:33:21 <timeless> i did give you about:config
Nov 28 18:33:24 <doc|work> hmmm, my mail client won't start. What's the name of the executable?
Nov 28 18:33:27 * the-FoX needs some help with maemomyth :(
Nov 28 18:33:27 <timeless> so you could say i did the first two :)
Nov 28 18:33:29 <fysa> yes, but I can't copy/paste or just click on something?
Nov 28 18:33:46 <timeless> fysa: you can double tap an item in about:Config to select it
Nov 28 18:33:51 <timeless> and then edit>copy to copy it
Nov 28 18:34:01 <timeless> i might at some point change about:config to include links
Nov 28 18:34:07 <timeless> or make it spiffier
Nov 28 18:34:16 <fysa> and for some reason, network.proxy.something_type is reset to 0 when the browser reloads?
Nov 28 18:34:16 <db48x> hrm
Nov 28 18:34:22 <db48x> what happened to copy and paste in the xterm?
Nov 28 18:34:29 <alterego> It moved.
Nov 28 18:34:54 <db48x> alterego: why did it do that?
Nov 28 18:35:11 <alterego> I dunno. There are a few duff changes in the new xterm.
Nov 28 18:35:22 <alterego> You have to use the application menu to do copy
Nov 28 18:35:27 <alterego> Pasting can be done via the vkb
Nov 28 18:36:09 <doc|work> anyone/
Nov 28 18:36:10 <doc|work> ?
Nov 28 18:36:36 <fysa> timeless: if it's XUL/JS you can use, probably make them each a link like .. <a onclick/href="javascript:document.editfield.value='network.proxy.etc';">network.proxy.etc</a>?
Nov 28 18:36:41 <fysa> anyway, I can live without it. :)
Nov 28 18:36:42 <timeless> oc|work: this is the normal one?
Nov 28 18:36:46 <doc|work> timeless: yep
Nov 28 18:36:49 <fysa> I usually just use xterm and nano the prefs.js
Nov 28 18:36:53 <timeless> doc: gimme a bit
Nov 28 18:37:06 <doc|work> might be due to a server error, but I'd expect it to say something at least rather than just die silently :/
Nov 28 18:37:13 <timeless>    7 Exec=/usr/bin/ossoemail
Nov 28 18:37:30 <timeless> fysa: it's html/js
Nov 28 18:37:41 <doc|work> timeless: thanks
Nov 28 18:37:42 <timeless> fysa: it's accepting patches
Nov 28 18:37:52 <timeless> i don't think that it should do it that way
Nov 28 18:38:00 <timeless> i think that it should be <body onclick> instead
Nov 28 18:38:02 <timeless> or something
Nov 28 18:38:09 <timeless> maybe <p>
Nov 28 18:38:16 <timeless> so that it doesn't need to be repeated
Nov 28 18:38:28 <timeless> something that basically captures the string dynamically
Nov 28 18:38:51 <timeless> probably it'd be cool if the edit field were floated or something
Nov 28 18:38:55 <timeless> so you wouldn't have to go to the top
Nov 28 18:39:12 <fysa> that would be the best way.
Nov 28 18:39:16 <db48x> it'd be cooler to use the existing xul impl
Nov 28 18:39:20 <fysa> touch something and it becomes an edit.
Nov 28 18:39:41 <timeless> http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/browser/mozilla/trunk/microb-engine/microb-engine/debian/resources/branding/microb/content/config.html
Nov 28 18:39:49 <timeless> you can read and rewrite the html if you like
Nov 28 18:39:49 <fysa> need to get a build environment up..
Nov 28 18:40:00 <timeless> db48x: yeah well um... someone needs to fix perf stuff first :)
Nov 28 18:40:56 <fysa> cool.
Nov 28 18:41:06 <db48x> was it really all that slow?
Nov 28 18:41:10 <timeless> yes
Nov 28 18:41:14 <db48x> huh
Nov 28 18:41:25 <db48x> I would have thought it'd be faster than html
Nov 28 18:42:03 <db48x> does it use a content tree view or a custom tree view?
Nov 28 18:42:33 <doc|work> weird, restarted n800 and all is fine :/
Nov 28 18:42:35 <db48x> guess it wouldn't matter much
Nov 28 18:43:40 <cbx33> dang it
Nov 28 18:43:56 <cbx33> my 2008 that I downloaded the other day - the md5sum doesn't match
Nov 28 18:43:57 <L0cutus> where cani find MC for n800 ?
Nov 28 18:44:15 <cbx33> can someone paste in the md5sum for the current n800 os2008 image?
Nov 28 18:44:27 <kulve> 900353c77fc7357a8a6a40b0b9483c2c  /tmp/RX-34_2008SE_1.2007.44-4_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin
Nov 28 18:44:31 <kulve> that's mine
Nov 28 18:44:43 <cbx33> mine must be corrupt then
Nov 28 18:44:44 <bill20r3> 900353c77fc7357a8a6a40b0b9483c2c
Nov 28 18:44:47 <bill20r3> ^^ mine
Nov 28 18:44:48 <cbx33> unless it's old
Nov 28 18:44:54 <cbx33> I got it a while back
Nov 28 18:45:10 <kulve> that came monday?
Nov 28 18:45:10 <cbx33> but it's downloading at a rate of 2.67Kb/s
Nov 28 18:45:30 <cbx33> no before.....when there was all the hubbub about it being leaked
Nov 28 18:45:38 <cbx33> now the images seem unavailable
Nov 28 18:45:44 <cbx33> it can't download at all
Nov 28 18:46:17 <cbx33> what's up with the nokia site I wonder
Nov 28 18:46:24 <kulve> cbx33: the official beta came monday
Nov 28 18:46:30 <kulve> not a leaked one
Nov 28 18:46:32 <cbx33> my average download speed is about 6Kb/s
Nov 28 18:46:38 <cbx33> ahhh ok
Nov 28 18:46:45 <cbx33> well I'm grabbing that as we speak
Nov 28 18:47:23 <bill20r3> mine went super slowly too.
Nov 28 18:47:27 <cbx33> can anyone else confirm the download speed.....i guess it can't be mirrored anywhere for licensing reasons
Nov 28 18:47:30 <cbx33> this sucks
Nov 28 18:47:32 <cbx33> 10 hours
Nov 28 18:47:49 <elb> why would someone else confirm it
Nov 28 18:47:53 <cbx33> between 3 and 40 hours apparently
Nov 28 18:47:59 <elb> if it's slow for you, it's slow for you, and we can't confirm or deny that
Nov 28 18:48:02 <cbx33> so i can tell if I have a sucky net connection today
Nov 28 18:48:04 <timeless> db48x: wait, which?
Nov 28 18:48:07 <cbx33> sure you can
Nov 28 18:48:09 <timeless> do you mean a xul ui, or prefs?
Nov 28 18:48:10 <elb> people have been complaining of slow downloads for a while
Nov 28 18:48:12 <guerby> hi, my N800+OS2008 is in a funny state (following my email on maemo-users about power+dpad), stylet, thumb and power button are working as usual, but all other buttons have no effect
Nov 28 18:48:14 <cbx33> ok
Nov 28 18:48:16 <timeless> about:config is almost certainly much faster in xul
Nov 28 18:48:16 <cbx33> thanks elb
Nov 28 18:48:27 <timeless> especially considering the poor impl i wrote
Nov 28 18:48:36 <guerby> I have ssh access (and app access) do you know what I should be looking for to help debugging?
Nov 28 18:49:20 <timeless> guerby: you should probably install sysklogd
Nov 28 18:49:24 <timeless> http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/chinook/find?string=sys.*log.*control
Nov 28 18:49:41 <guerby> timeless, ok let me check
Nov 28 18:50:50 <timeless> guerby: note, i have no idea what i'd be looking for
Nov 28 18:51:04 <timeless> that's just a basic thing which you'd want installed while chasing ghosts
Nov 28 18:51:06 <guerby> timeless, sysklogd installed
Nov 28 18:51:21 <timeless> i'm also not sure where the logs go these days
Nov 28 18:51:54 <guerby> /var/log/ ?
Nov 28 18:52:11 <timeless> at one point it was /var/ftd-log/logs
Nov 28 18:52:57 <timeless> sorry, people just pung something important
Nov 28 18:52:59 * timeless drops #maemo
Nov 28 18:53:13 <guerby> timeless seems to be /var/log/syslog
Nov 28 18:53:51 <timeless> ok, guess they're using the more normal version, fine by me
Nov 28 18:54:30 <guerby> getting a few lines in it but nothing when I press the not working buttons
Nov 28 18:56:52 <ubikolat> is it easy to disable the network manager applet in the n800 or the n810? Probably through /etc/init.d/network stop?
Nov 28 18:57:15 <timeless> you mean the status bar item?
Nov 28 18:57:40 <ubikolat> yea, so that the network manager does not interfere with the wlan0 interface
Nov 28 18:58:10 * lardman looks at the back log and sees download rates of 6kB/s for the flash image. I was moaning when mine fell to 50kB/s
Nov 28 18:58:42 * doc|work was getting 550K from the (unofficial) torrent
Nov 28 18:58:59 <lardman> that's more like it
Nov 28 18:59:27 <guerby> timeless I installed xev and there's no event generated at all
Nov 28 19:00:01 <timeless> i'd probably reboot and then read dmesg and syslog
Nov 28 19:00:10 <timeless> (not sure there'd be anything)
Nov 28 19:00:18 <fysa> timeless: BTW, 'modest' uses the nice thumb-sized scrollbar
Nov 28 19:00:26 <timeless> i've never heard of loose wires or anything, but i suppose anything's possible
Nov 28 19:00:47 <DanielLion> 2hrs left for the N810 firmware
Nov 28 19:00:49 <timeless> fysa: so, how many scrollbars does modest have on the screen at one time?
Nov 28 19:00:49 <guerby> timeless rebooting then
Nov 28 19:00:56 <alterego> Heh.
Nov 28 19:01:06 <DanielLion> Damn they trying to squeeze bandwith though a dial up line or something?
Nov 28 19:01:19 <alterego> DanielLion, two dialup lines actually.
Nov 28 19:01:28 * doc|work was going to say that :|
Nov 28 19:01:30 <cbx33> mines died
Nov 28 19:01:34 <cbx33> never past 1Mb
Nov 28 19:01:44 <fysa> the lower scrollbar being small isn't a big issue -- it's easier to 'drag' the screen left and right
Nov 28 19:01:55 <cbx33> hey fysa
Nov 28 19:01:59 <lardman> they can't have that many people trying to download it can they?
Nov 28 19:02:06 <DanielLion> ewwww
Nov 28 19:02:07 <cbx33> i wouldn't have thought so
Nov 28 19:02:08 <fysa> but on a long long page, dragging can be an issue
Nov 28 19:02:09 <DanielLion> Thats nutters
Nov 28 19:02:21 <fysa> which is where the thumb-sized scrollbar would really help
Nov 28 19:02:22 <guerby> timeless, I got back my buttons after reboot go figure...
Nov 28 19:02:34 <alterego> All those lucky yanks with their tablets O_O
Nov 28 19:02:55 <DanielLion> kinetic scroll would rock! though.
Nov 28 19:03:18 <fysa> hunting down a screenshot
Nov 28 19:03:27 <timeless> data:text/html,<frameset%20rows="*,*"><frame%20src="data:text/html,<div%20style='top:1000px'>hi</div><iframe%20src='data:text/html,<textarea%20rows=14%20cols=2>h%20j%20s%20f%20k%20s%20d%20h%20f%20k%20j%20s%20d%20h%20f%20k%20j%20s%20d%20h%20f%20j%20k%20s%20d%20h%20f%20k%20d%20s%20j%20h%20f%20k%20j%20s%20d%20hfkdsjfhdkj</textarea>'></iframe>"><frame%20src="data:text/plain,hi"></frameset>
Nov 28 19:03:40 <timeless> fysa: try that url
Nov 28 19:04:07 <timeless> lardman: ball of twine server?
Nov 28 19:04:07 <ubikolat> I've been having some issues with os2008 of it rebooting on it's own while I'm running my application is there some way to debug the problem?
Nov 28 19:04:21 <timeless> ubikolat: install sysklogd
Nov 28 19:04:41 <timeless> you should also check /proc/boot_reason (?)
Nov 28 19:04:58 <timeless> /proc/bootreason
Nov 28 19:05:10 <guerby> timeless do you get a penny each time someone installs sysklogd? :) :)
Nov 28 19:05:12 * lardman wonders about these posts on ITT about p2p clients on the tablets, very odd
Nov 28 19:05:14 <timeless> mine's sw_rst (there's a wiki somewhere)
Nov 28 19:05:32 <timeless> guerby: that really wouldn't pay for my dinner
Nov 28 19:05:33 <lardman> software reset
Nov 28 19:05:50 <timeless> lardman: mine isn't interesting, what's interesting is ubi's :)
Nov 28 19:05:59 * timeless pokes fysa
Nov 28 19:06:20 <timeless> fysa: note: dragging (panning) is a disaster
Nov 28 19:06:25 <timeless> it needs to be removed and redesigned
Nov 28 19:06:28 <fysa> sorry, was hunting down this Modest presentation
Nov 28 19:06:31 <lardman> come on ubikolat, tell us what it says :)
Nov 28 19:06:34 <fysa> but it has old small scrollbars
Nov 28 19:06:38 <timeless> you need to play w/ more google web apps
Nov 28 19:06:45 <timeless> fysa: the modest dev is a neighbor
Nov 28 19:06:48 <timeless> i can easily see how it looks
Nov 28 19:06:51 <fysa> OK cool
Nov 28 19:06:53 <timeless> load my page instead :)
Nov 28 19:07:01 <timeless> we're not that ignorant
Nov 28 19:07:02 <ubikolat> timeless: bootreason says 32wd_to
Nov 28 19:07:04 <timeless> ok, maybe we are...
Nov 28 19:07:12 <timeless> ubi: that's much more interesting :)
Nov 28 19:07:22 <ubikolat> ubikolat: what does it mean?
Nov 28 19:07:43 * timeless insults ubi's irc client
Nov 28 19:07:43 <fysa> you want me to load that big string into the location: field?  or stick it into an HTML and view it?
Nov 28 19:07:45 <timeless> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/30750
Nov 28 19:07:50 <ubikolat> I just installed sysklogd let me try to reproduce the problem
Nov 28 19:08:01 <fysa> oh, I see.  data:text/html
Nov 28 19:08:17 <lardman> watchdog iirc
Nov 28 19:08:26 <timeless> lardman: yes...
Nov 28 19:09:00 <fysa> I can see how fat scrollbars wouldn't necessarily be good there.
Nov 28 19:09:07 <timeless> ubi: anyway, that page seems to have a fairly reasonable starting outline
Nov 28 19:09:24 <timeless> fysa: you realize that each set of scrollbars eats space, right?
Nov 28 19:09:25 <ubikolat> timeless: yeah thanks
Nov 28 19:09:29 <timeless> at some point, you run out of space
Nov 28 19:09:32 <timeless> and just have scrollbars
Nov 28 19:10:28 <fysa> right now we have a situation where because the scrollbar is so small, it's artificially forced away from the right edge of the screen leaving a gap, right?
Nov 28 19:10:30 <cbx33> damn managed to get 1.23 Mb before it died then
Nov 28 19:10:37 <timeless> basically, while scrollbars are nifty things, ever present scrollbars are probably the wrong solution for our device
Nov 28 19:10:50 <timeless> fysa: no
Nov 28 19:11:05 <halley> Scrollbars suck; just drag an "inert" part of the content.
Nov 28 19:11:06 <timeless> we have a situation where an idiotic theming requirement is forcing bad design
Nov 28 19:11:12 <fysa> I have a ~8 pixel gap on the right of the scrollbar
Nov 28 19:11:12 <fysa> ah
Nov 28 19:11:16 <timeless> halley: what if there is no inert content?
Nov 28 19:12:03 <timeless> fysa: anyway, i'm in a pickle
Nov 28 19:12:09 <timeless> i'm trying to redesign the ui (now)
Nov 28 19:12:17 <fysa> you know, even the in-page scrollbars could stay the same.  it's just the scrollbar on the right that is a problem for me -- my thumb scrapes against the plastic of the case when I scroll up/down
Nov 28 19:12:20 <timeless> but i have these stupid documents that are "confidential"
Nov 28 19:12:45 <timeless> fysa: actually, that's the other stupid thing
Nov 28 19:12:50 <timeless> because the screen is inset
Nov 28 19:13:00 <timeless> there are arguments against the normal behavior of screen edges
Nov 28 19:13:03 <fysa> the iPhone/iPod Touch really had it right when they put the screen flush behind glass.
Nov 28 19:13:07 * timeless blames the designers
Nov 28 19:13:22 <timeless> yes, apple has better engineers
Nov 28 19:13:26 <timeless> tell me something i can actually fix
Nov 28 19:13:31 <halley> fysa, I agree about flush mount in general; makes it easier to clean.
Nov 28 19:13:32 <fysa> :)
Nov 28 19:13:34 * timeless doesn't have a budget to hire them
Nov 28 19:13:46 * timeless doesn't have a budget at all
Nov 28 19:13:57 <lardman> ubikolat: have you looked at the output of /var/lib/dsme/stats/lifeguard_resets
Nov 28 19:14:10 * alterego hopes Nokia decide to do that next time :)
Nov 28 19:14:15 <halley> I want to make pygtkeditor tabbed so I can have multiple files at once.
Nov 28 19:14:25 <timeless> tabs are bad
Nov 28 19:14:26 <timeless> don't do it
Nov 28 19:14:30 <alterego> It'd be a _proper_ tablet then.
Nov 28 19:14:44 <halley> One TXT file open at a time is worse for me.
Nov 28 19:14:45 * timeless pun-ishes alterego
Nov 28 19:14:52 <timeless> halley: just have multiple windows
Nov 28 19:14:58 <alterego> :P
Nov 28 19:15:15 <timeless> the window manager should manage the windows for you
Nov 28 19:15:16 <halley> Er, then finding them with the left-hand icons?
Nov 28 19:15:19 <timeless> if it's broken, make someone fix it
Nov 28 19:15:41 <fysa> if the right scroll bar was widened so the left edge meets the dotted line between the [V] minimize and [X] close, I think that would be 'good enough'
Nov 28 19:15:45 <timeless> halley: i think there's an unsupported setting that'd let you put the tn on another edge if you're so inclined :)
Nov 28 19:16:04 <timeless> fysa: i will try to make sure my list of grievances includes that one
Nov 28 19:16:10 <fysa> sorry :)
Nov 28 19:16:15 <timeless> not your fault
Nov 28 19:16:24 <timeless> perfectly rational grievance
Nov 28 19:16:30 <ubikolat> lardman yeah I did
Nov 28 19:16:32 <fysa> how about instead of kinetic scrolling, some way to amplify dragging?.
Nov 28 19:16:37 <fysa> that would make it much more useful.
Nov 28 19:16:41 <ubikolat> lardman but apparently that file doesn't indicate what caused the restart
Nov 28 19:16:44 <timeless> fysa: no :)
Nov 28 19:16:51 <fysa> i.e., I move my finger 10 pixels, I want the page to move 50 pixels
Nov 28 19:17:00 <timeless> fysa: have you looked at minimap?
Nov 28 19:17:02 <lardman> ubikolat: yeah, just re-read that thread
Nov 28 19:17:16 <timeless> fysa:  put another way
Nov 28 19:17:18 <ubikolat> I did, just installed ksyslogd
Nov 28 19:17:20 <timeless> imagine you're looking at...
Nov 28 19:17:35 <fysa> have not, but will check it out
Nov 28 19:17:54 <fysa> minimap as default OS2008 'Map'?
Nov 28 19:17:59 <timeless> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=33.120305,-111.738188&spn=0.001642,0.002832&z=19&om=1
Nov 28 19:18:15 <timeless> fysa: minimap is nokia's s60 browser solution to a certain problem
Nov 28 19:18:17 <timeless> ignore it for now
Nov 28 19:18:21 <timeless> start w/ the url i pasted
Nov 28 19:18:35 <timeless> without searching, how would you get to "20210"?
Nov 28 19:18:50 <lardman> ubikolat: dunno about the email, but mine indicates 5* restarts by dsp_dld, and as I have been DSP hacking this is why it's been reset
Nov 28 19:19:22 <timeless> fysa: if you prefer 90210, that's fine too
Nov 28 19:19:23 <fysa> sounds like a trick question ;)
Nov 28 19:19:26 <timeless> just describe the steps you take
Nov 28 19:19:36 <fysa> unzoom, drag, zoom in?
Nov 28 19:19:37 <timeless> no tricks
Nov 28 19:19:42 <timeless> good
Nov 28 19:19:54 <timeless> you sure you don't want to drag until you reach that?
Nov 28 19:20:01 <timeless> you don't have to unzoom, right?
Nov 28 19:20:09 <timeless> i mean, if you drag long enough
Nov 28 19:20:15 <fysa> my wrist would be very tired ;)
Nov 28 19:20:19 <timeless> and pay for enough acceleration, you might eventually find your destination
Nov 28 19:20:21 <timeless> really?
Nov 28 19:20:23 <timeless> i'm shocked
Nov 28 19:20:25 <timeless> ok. good.
Nov 28 19:20:26 <ubikolat> lardman yeah mine just has 1 on each, so it's not an application being reset a lot of times, or so I'm guessing
Nov 28 19:20:30 <timeless> baseline established
Nov 28 19:20:55 <timeless> next question. what pages do you visit, and precisely how do you try to change their view
Nov 28 19:21:11 <timeless> are you trying to go down "1 screen", "to the end", "to a random point", ...
Nov 28 19:21:19 <timeless> are you "trying to read the text"
Nov 28 19:21:32 <timeless> fysa: basically, instead of saying "foo would be cool"
Nov 28 19:21:35 <K`zan> Anyone know if the FMRadio applet from 2007 will work in 2008 (n800)?
Nov 28 19:21:40 <timeless> i need you (and the nokians writing stupid requirements)
Nov 28 19:21:44 <|R> any reason why DisableHFP=True in /etc/bluetooth/audio.conf ?
Nov 28 19:21:54 <timeless> k`zan: typically you need to rebuild apps for different os releases
Nov 28 19:21:54 <fysa> right
Nov 28 19:22:07 <timeless> to actually explain what problem you're trying to solve
Nov 28 19:22:12 <timeless> what's the real world use case
Nov 28 19:22:16 <timeless> not, what might be cool
Nov 28 19:22:20 <K`zan> timeless, I know but I was hoping :).
Nov 28 19:22:24 <K`zan> Thanks.
Nov 28 19:22:29 <timeless> the question isn't is "x" cool, it's *why* is X useful
Nov 28 19:22:34 <timeless> what problem does X solve
Nov 28 19:22:42 * sp3000 wonders if the feed applet has been fixed to wrap right since 44
Nov 28 19:22:51 <timeless> and are the conditions leading to the problems that X solves
Nov 28 19:22:58 <timeless> sp3000: would reading the changelog answer that? :)
Nov 28 19:23:07 * timeless can do that....
Nov 28 19:23:16 <lardman> pupnik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJGR_xRnzik this one is opengl on the omap
Nov 28 19:23:22 <fysa> is it possible to zoom out less than 80%?
Nov 28 19:23:25 <timeless> X solves ... equivalent to the conditions on our device
Nov 28 19:23:35 <timeless> fysa: w/ the ui we have officially? no
Nov 28 19:23:36 <sp3000> timeless: eek
Nov 28 19:23:37 <pupnik> ah ty
Nov 28 19:23:54 <timeless> i have one browser that lets me zoom to 10%..200% w/ 10% steps
Nov 28 19:24:12 <timeless> and that's the browser i happen to like the best for ui choices
Nov 28 19:24:24 <timeless> fysa: there's another elephant in the corner
Nov 28 19:24:27 <pupnik> wow nice
Nov 28 19:24:34 <timeless> and that's the fact that apple may have patents for cool things it does
Nov 28 19:24:42 <timeless> like how to unlock a device
Nov 28 19:24:42 <fysa> there are two issues I have with the browser -- friction of the screen/device against my finger makes dragging not feel so hot.  and hitting the tiny 10pt font links with my finger.
Nov 28 19:24:57 <timeless> fysa: good
Nov 28 19:25:09 <timeless> the friction should make you think that panning is a really stupid solution
Nov 28 19:25:15 <timeless> in fact, it results in hands that hurt a lot
Nov 28 19:25:18 <pumpkingod> hmm
Nov 28 19:25:19 <fysa> the first thing I usually do is set the minimum font size to 14pt.. this lets me not have to use 120% all the time, which makes the images ugly.
Nov 28 19:25:24 <pumpkingod> I don't seem to have glib-config
Nov 28 19:25:24 <timeless> and the other thing, hitting the links
Nov 28 19:25:28 <timeless> that's a very important problem
Nov 28 19:25:30 <pumpkingod> anyone have any idea where I'd get it?
Nov 28 19:25:30 <timeless> (vip :)
Nov 28 19:25:34 <timeless> which *must* be solved
Nov 28 19:25:50 <timeless> but is the problem that you want to read the page at 200%
Nov 28 19:25:53 <fysa> that helps with the links a bit, but what I really want..  is some way to make those links easier to hit temporarily
Nov 28 19:25:56 <timeless> or that you need to be able to click the link?
Nov 28 19:26:00 <fysa> without ruining the page layout
Nov 28 19:26:03 <timeless> i believe it's precisely as you stated it
Nov 28 19:26:08 * czr peeks
Nov 28 19:26:10 <timeless> that when you want to click the link, it's hard
Nov 28 19:26:37 <timeless> so the solution should be to offer you some way to make it easier to click links w/o requiring the page to constantly use 120% or some other zoom level
Nov 28 19:26:52 <timeless> fysa: let's try some more examples
Nov 28 19:26:54 <fysa> if I could tap the screen and have all links in that area get CSS font-size:200% for 3-5 seconds, that could help.
Nov 28 19:27:09 * timeless nods
Nov 28 19:27:12 <fysa> I've been trying to figure out a CSS hack to this..
Nov 28 19:27:16 <timeless> greasemonkey is available
Nov 28 19:27:24 <timeless> so you should be able to write an addon that lets you toy w/ that
Nov 28 19:27:37 <timeless> prototyping such things w/ greasemonkey is a very good idea
Nov 28 19:28:02 <pupnik> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUOqR_2sACk  also a nice omap opengl demo
Nov 28 19:28:06 <timeless> btw: to the rest of #maemo, welcome to what's probably the first useful discussion of how to improve the browser ui anywhere :)
Nov 28 19:28:09 <fysa> I have no issue with coding, just an issue with time.  but a nice three weeks of vacation coming up soon..
Nov 28 19:28:23 <timeless> good for you :)
Nov 28 19:28:41 * ubikolat wonders if there is a way to have application being excluded from watchdog
Nov 28 19:28:45 <timeless> anyway, back to my prototyping
Nov 28 19:28:49 <pumpkingod> does anyone know where I could find glib-config on my maemo?
Nov 28 19:28:59 <czr> timeless, thank you. where's the popcorn? :-)
Nov 28 19:29:13 <fysa> I know I could use JS to make all hrefs float fixed, bump their z-layer up and font-size: 200% and highlight them in some way to make them more visible
Nov 28 19:29:14 <czr> timeless, and when does the feature start? :-)
Nov 28 19:29:18 <sp3000> hitting small links is ok, getting a context menu on them ...uh
Nov 28 19:29:22 <fysa> but no matter what, that solution isn't going to work for 100% of the sites
Nov 28 19:29:29 <timeless> http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/chinook/find?string=glib-config
Nov 28 19:29:31 <derf> As long as the d-pad doesn't move between what seem like essentially random links instead of scrolling the display.
Nov 28 19:29:35 <timeless> says it's from pkg-config
Nov 28 19:29:35 <sp3000> well, any links really, in a moving vehicle
Nov 28 19:30:03 <timeless> fysa: i think the next question i have is probably how hurried you are when you click a link
Nov 28 19:30:12 <derf> Except when you hold it down, of course, making it, after an interminable wait, start scrolling so fast that it's impossible to stop where you want it.
Nov 28 19:30:18 <timeless> would you really be bothered if when you clicked a link you had the following things happen:
Nov 28 19:30:48 <fysa> the absolute worst thing is having to pull the stylus out just to hit a link.
Nov 28 19:31:16 <timeless> 1. a zoomed view of the clicked area appears (ideally only on the left/right of your clicking, say using 1/3 of the screen width)
Nov 28 19:31:23 <fysa> the best would probably be links taking double-taps
Nov 28 19:31:28 <fysa> when I go for a link, I'm done reading the page
Nov 28 19:31:30 <timeless> 2. a couple of buttons appear above/below that box
Nov 28 19:31:47 <timeless> w/ things like "context", "zoom", "properties"
Nov 28 19:31:52 <fysa> I know what the text around it says and know where I want to go, I just want to do it accurately in as few steps as possible
Nov 28 19:31:55 <timeless> i haven't quite figured out what buttons you'd get
Nov 28 19:32:17 <fysa> one tap to 'zoom' the text, another to go
Nov 28 19:32:19 <timeless> but basically you could then click on the link you really meant in the zoomed area
Nov 28 19:32:28 * czr proposes "NAO OK!"
Nov 28 19:32:35 <fysa> one tap to zoom the text, then hold to get properties
Nov 28 19:32:44 <pupnik> interesting ideas timeless
Nov 28 19:32:56 <timeless> the point is that we have a moderately sized box
Nov 28 19:33:01 <timeless> and we need to think around it
Nov 28 19:33:07 <timeless> instead of just having tunnel vision
Nov 28 19:33:08 <fysa> this way, if there are no links around what I'm going for, I have confidence that I can double-tap
Nov 28 19:33:19 <timeless> fysa: minor warning
Nov 28 19:33:19 <fysa> without having to wait for a menu or context
Nov 28 19:33:26 <timeless> consider the comment i made about about:config
Nov 28 19:33:35 <timeless> i.e. <body onclick> instead of <a href/onclick>
Nov 28 19:33:46 <fysa> right
Nov 28 19:33:52 <timeless> there's no guarantee that you can ever find a point that isn't hot
Nov 28 19:34:06 <timeless> and for most google web apps, there really are no ... how did halley call that?
Nov 28 19:34:45 <fysa> which is why in thumb mode, I don't think the first tap should be sent to the gecko/whatever/JS engine..
Nov 28 19:35:03 <fysa> it should be caught
Nov 28 19:35:13 * timeless nods
Nov 28 19:35:22 <timeless> the one minor problem w/ doing something like this
Nov 28 19:35:29 <timeless> is that it requires a tutorial at the beginning
Nov 28 19:35:33 <timeless> that's ok, our device already required one
Nov 28 19:35:40 <timeless> and suffers from that lack
Nov 28 19:35:54 <timeless> but ideally there can be /some/ hints
Nov 28 19:36:08 <fysa> tapping is pretty natural.  a context menu isn't bad, as long as it doesn't block i/o for that second confident tap
Nov 28 19:36:10 <timeless> there is after all one pulsating led available :)
Nov 28 19:36:19 <timeless> fysa: context menus are a mess
Nov 28 19:36:25 <timeless> a web app might want one
Nov 28 19:36:30 <timeless> so might the web browser
Nov 28 19:36:39 <pumpkingod> timeless: it claims pkg-config is already installed :-/
Nov 28 19:36:46 <pumpkingod> but no glib-config
Nov 28 19:36:50 <timeless> and a web app might also want to enable
Nov 28 19:36:58 <doc|work> finally, a week later, my boxwave order ships
Nov 28 19:37:01 <doc|work> 24 hours my arse
Nov 28 19:37:02 <timeless> pumpkingod: man pkg-config
Nov 28 19:37:03 <fysa> I'm thinking something like this..
Nov 28 19:37:04 <fysa> http://thumbs2.modthesims2.com/images4/MTS2_130011_Numenor_Pic2_Menu.jpg
Nov 28 19:37:15 * timeless shrugs
Nov 28 19:37:32 <|R> anyone got handsfree profile working with 2008?
Nov 28 19:37:36 <fysa> yeah, I see what you mean though.
Nov 28 19:37:46 <pumpkingod> I'm calling pkg-config glib --cflags
Nov 28 19:37:51 <pumpkingod> but that just calls glib-config
Nov 28 19:37:53 <timeless> did i mention a web app might want to support drag and drop?
Nov 28 19:38:02 <timeless> worse, the web browser might want to too
Nov 28 19:38:18 <timeless> i need to get out a paint app and draw what i'm describing
Nov 28 19:38:37 <doc|work> speaking of pulsating leds, it'd be nice if it wouldn't pulsate for long on email receipt if you're using the device at that moment
Nov 28 19:38:50 <timeless> doc|work:you're free to file bugs
Nov 28 19:38:59 * doc|work will do that tonight
Nov 28 19:39:03 <timeless> but be sure you indicate you're aware that there's a stupid specification mandating the behavior
Nov 28 19:39:13 <timeless> otherwise the bug will be closed as "we're doing what the spec says"
Nov 28 19:39:24 <doc|work> hmmm, ok, nokia spec?
Nov 28 19:39:50 <timeless> doc: specs are secrets
Nov 28 19:39:53 <timeless> assume they exist
Nov 28 19:39:58 <elb> haha
Nov 28 19:40:05 <timeless> generally any behavior we have is almost certainly specified
Nov 28 19:40:07 <doc|work> o.O
Nov 28 19:40:31 <doc|work> so, if they're secret can I point to this conversation as to how I'm aware of them? :)
Nov 28 19:41:25 <timeless> please don't
Nov 28 19:41:30 <DanielLion> You know .. id lvoe to see a 2ndlife client on here
Nov 28 19:41:35 <timeless> it's reasonable to assume secret specifications exist
Nov 28 19:41:38 <DanielLion> with the touch screen it would totaly rock
Nov 28 19:41:48 <timeless> and it's reasonable to state that you know that X is probably done because of a specification
Nov 28 19:41:52 <fysa> no context menu.  touch-and-hold can go straight through to the JS/site if that area is 'active,' but I don't think there will be any problem with effectively turning most onclicks to ondoubleclicks.
Nov 28 19:42:03 <doc|work> so, I'm to say I know a secret specification exists :|
Nov 28 19:42:03 <fysa> we already lost mouseover
Nov 28 19:42:15 <timeless> fysa: hold on
Nov 28 19:42:40 <chx> moooore silly questions about the N810. The GPS and the Google maps, are these linked? I mean, is there a plugin which sends coordinates to Google?
Nov 28 19:42:49 <fysa> http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/images/Magnifier1.png
Nov 28 19:43:15 <fysa> http://www.tutorialblog.org/magnified/14.jpg
Nov 28 19:43:47 <timeless> fysa: give me a bit
Nov 28 19:43:52 <fysa> np, I have some work to do
Nov 28 19:43:55 <fysa> take your time
Nov 28 19:43:55 <timeless> i can eitiher type/talk/think, or draw
Nov 28 19:44:31 <fysa> iPod/iPhone handles it by zooming the entire page on double tap.
Nov 28 19:45:00 <fysa> having double-tap alternate between 40%, 100% and 180% zoom might not be bad.
Nov 28 19:45:17 <fysa> but that's three touches to hit a link confidently
Nov 28 19:45:57 <timeless> it's actually not that simple
Nov 28 19:46:02 <timeless> try it w/ complicated table layouts
Nov 28 19:46:11 <timeless> it will sometimes do "interesting" things
Nov 28 19:46:17 <timeless> often moderately frustrating
Nov 28 19:46:32 <timeless> note: the iPhone has support for multi-touch
Nov 28 19:46:47 <timeless> as the microb architect, i'm constrained by having to design for 770,n800,n810
Nov 28 19:46:54 <timeless> maybe other things
Nov 28 19:47:11 <timeless> apple otoh can design for a single well designed system
Nov 28 19:47:37 <timeless> anyway, enough talking about apple, but i hope you can see part of why looking at apple isn't helpful
Nov 28 19:47:50 <timeless> also keep in mind that apple explicitly ruled out hovers and a number of other web2 features
Nov 28 19:47:58 <timeless> they said that they'd make the web come to them
Nov 28 19:48:01 <timeless> nokia can't do that
Nov 28 19:48:02 <fysa> yeah, it's apples .. and oranges really.
Nov 28 19:48:12 <timeless> right... which is why i'd rather ignore apple
Nov 28 19:48:18 <timeless> it's not that i'm ignorant and unaware of them
Nov 28 19:48:27 <timeless> i've used their product, looked at most of the features
Nov 28 19:48:29 <fysa> I have the problem of having both devices in front of me
Nov 28 19:48:29 <timeless> and i admire it
Nov 28 19:48:32 <timeless> but i can't use them
Nov 28 19:48:48 <timeless> because their constraints and mine don't match
Nov 28 19:48:56 <fysa> and while I can get to the real web with the N800, the Apple is easier to read news with casually.
Nov 28 19:49:32 <fysa> that's a different conversation for a different time
Nov 28 19:49:32 <timeless> have you tried google reader?
Nov 28 19:49:42 <fysa> I use readermini
Nov 28 19:49:48 <timeless> note: we broke google reader (and just about every other google web app) in various interesting ways
Nov 28 19:50:02 <fysa> https://readermini.com/
Nov 28 19:50:05 <timeless> but a proper non hacked browser w/ full google reader in the n800's form factor...
Nov 28 19:50:23 <timeless> (heck, even w/ the n800's hardware)
Nov 28 19:50:37 <fysa> right, I would love to use full google reader.
Nov 28 19:54:56 <fysa> maybe profiles based on the content width
Nov 28 19:55:24 <fysa> or whether the page defines constant width
Nov 28 19:55:43 <fysa> (these are all greasemonkey-testable things)
Nov 28 19:55:44 <timeless> right, i've been planning something like that
Nov 28 19:55:51 <timeless> haven't quite figured out how to do the ui
Nov 28 19:55:59 <timeless> but basically there are fewer than 6 page "profiles"
Nov 28 19:56:07 <timeless> and most likely each site you visit will fit one profile
Nov 28 19:56:36 <fysa> can we rotate?
Nov 28 19:56:37 <timeless> so it should be trivial to say "for this page, set the screen width to 400, or 800, or 1600, and set the font size/zoom scale/ ...
Nov 28 19:56:46 <timeless> the device doesn't currently offer that feature
Nov 28 19:56:53 <timeless> all the browsers i look at can
Nov 28 19:57:01 <timeless> gecko can do slow rotations using canvas
Nov 28 19:57:06 <timeless> however, cairo is *Very* slow
Nov 28 19:57:12 <timeless> and there's no hardware acceleration
Nov 28 19:57:25 <timeless> (cairo is one or maybe 3 very big headache[s])
Nov 28 19:57:50 <fysa> CSS can rotate text 90 degrees
Nov 28 19:57:56 <fysa> wait.
Nov 28 19:58:24 <sp3000> css can make your head spin, with the same effect?
Nov 28 19:58:37 <fysa> CSS3
Nov 28 19:58:43 <timeless> svg can do anything
Nov 28 19:58:49 <sp3000> cool, dictionary = none means norwegian :P
Nov 28 19:58:49 <timeless> it's a good thing microb doesn't include it :)
Nov 28 19:58:54 <fysa> slowly ;)
Nov 28 19:59:04 <timeless> _very_
Nov 28 19:59:06 <fysa> image-orientation:
Nov 28 20:00:58 <timeless> note: there's nothing wrong w/ thinking about rotation
Nov 28 20:01:04 <timeless> (my mockup will include it)
Nov 28 20:01:12 <timeless> you just must not rely on it :)
Nov 28 20:01:48 <fysa> mention that the device is too heavy to hold comfortably in one hand without rotation ;)
Nov 28 20:02:00 <timeless> buy a treo
Nov 28 20:02:27 <fysa> and I have pretty big hands ;)
Nov 28 20:03:00 <timeless> buy a kindle
Nov 28 20:03:12 <fysa> is that what nokia is telling me?
Nov 28 20:03:15 <fysa> :)
Nov 28 20:03:18 <timeless> no
Nov 28 20:03:29 <timeless> that's what a tired engineer is saying in response to unchangable bits
Nov 28 20:03:58 <timeless> if this device will never fit your needs, then it might really not fit your needs
Nov 28 20:04:06 <timeless> otoh, you're nice, and i like/value your input
Nov 28 20:04:25 <timeless> but if it's actually a waste of your time because it won't work, then i recognize that your time may be better spent investigating others
Nov 28 20:04:40 <fysa> I don't care much about things like rotation.  those are things that would be 'nice,' but otherwise.. eh
Nov 28 20:06:23 * timeless pokes fysa
Nov 28 20:06:28 <fysa> don't worry, I can sympathize with tired engineers.  I do workplace pledge campaign systems and this is campaign season..  months of long hours from extremely demanding clients that need everything immediately because their entire year is centered around two or three weeks.
Nov 28 20:06:32 <timeless> sorry, some things aren't for sharing
Nov 28 20:08:11 <timeless> ok, so imagine you tap on the guy's nose
Nov 28 20:08:17 <pupnik> i'll wager rotation will come in 2008, with a N9x0 - if at all.  - not as an app-level feature
Nov 28 20:08:18 <timeless> you are given a couple of things
Nov 28 20:08:38 <timeless> a bigger view of the area you tapped
Nov 28 20:08:51 <timeless> so that you have a chance to see the various links that might be there
Nov 28 20:09:34 <pupnik> i think that could be a welcome innovation, timeless
Nov 28 20:09:59 <pupnik> especially if you can do the zoom without re-rendering the whole page
Nov 28 20:10:22 <timeless> i'm pretty sure we can do at least basic trivial zoom w/o rerendering
Nov 28 20:10:48 <timeless> and practically speaking if you're trying to hit a link
Nov 28 20:10:52 <timeless> you want to hit the link
Nov 28 20:10:54 <pupnik> would that require disabling the pan-dragging feature?
Nov 28 20:10:56 <timeless> not have some other view
Nov 28 20:11:02 <pupnik> yes
Nov 28 20:11:13 <timeless> pupnik: i'm working on the assumption that the osso browser "features" are all dead
Nov 28 20:11:23 <pupnik> k
Nov 28 20:11:28 <timeless> now, if i'm lucky, balanced on the other side of the world (somewhere)
Nov 28 20:11:31 <timeless> would be a zoomed out view
Nov 28 20:11:40 <timeless> because as fysa noted at the beginning of our exercise
Nov 28 20:11:47 <timeless> if you want to get from one point to another
Nov 28 20:11:55 <timeless> it makes more sense to zoom out and then refocus
Nov 28 20:13:20 <timeless> ok, back to details
Nov 28 20:13:45 <timeless> you'll have buttons that let you pick between "Click" "Hover" and "Right click"
Nov 28 20:13:52 <timeless> which will give you a way to trigger hover effects
Nov 28 20:13:53 <fysa> coming back here now
Nov 28 20:14:12 <timeless> if you click the hover button, then you will get a cursor that will appear on the screen
Nov 28 20:14:22 <timeless> possibly w/ a mouse turd cursor trail (not sure)
Nov 28 20:14:36 <timeless> basically each time you tap, your mouse would move to that position
Nov 28 20:14:42 <timeless> and the web app would get hover events, not clicks
Nov 28 20:14:50 <timeless> until you switch out of hover mode
Nov 28 20:14:51 * halley shudders.
Nov 28 20:14:58 <timeless> yes, modal uis suck
Nov 28 20:15:05 <timeless> so does dealing w/ broken input methods
Nov 28 20:15:13 <timeless> and the device we have is fundamentally flawed
Nov 28 20:15:15 <pupnik> i think i understand, timeless needs to map a tablet to existing software
Nov 28 20:15:21 <halley> Speaking of which, nobody's gotten Japanese working on N810 that I can find.
Nov 28 20:15:46 <timeless> halley: the audience for japanese is smaller than the audience for chinese
Nov 28 20:15:55 <timeless> even though the japanese are probably more willing to spend their money
Nov 28 20:15:58 <timeless> and adopt the product
Nov 28 20:16:05 <pupnik> so only way to do mouseover is some kind of modal thing
Nov 28 20:16:07 <timeless> otoh, japanese devices are kinda in a different league
Nov 28 20:16:15 <timeless> pupnik: essentially, probably
Nov 28 20:16:28 <timeless> i'm not saying it the only way
Nov 28 20:16:32 <Tak> it would have to be like 1mm thin with a 1mm border around the screen to sell in japan
Nov 28 20:16:36 <timeless> but it's a way i'm proposing
Nov 28 20:16:48 <halley> Not really, they either use a phone or a Panasonic lappy that's slightly bigger than an eeePC.
Nov 28 20:17:10 <pupnik> my noobish mom liked dragging zoomed-in webpages with stylus
Nov 28 20:17:40 <timeless> pupnik: yeah, but when it breaks on gmail, google docs, google earth, google maps, google reader, ...
Nov 28 20:17:43 <timeless> google video
Nov 28 20:17:47 <timeless> youtube
Nov 28 20:17:47 <_Monkey> somebody said youtube was finally usable
Nov 28 20:17:48 <pupnik> ok then, dpad
Nov 28 20:18:04 <timeless> you know where nokia stuck the dpad for the n810?
Nov 28 20:18:16 <timeless> something equivalent to up the rear of an animal
Nov 28 20:18:19 <pupnik> yeah i can't wait to try it
Nov 28 20:18:20 <pupnik> hehe
Nov 28 20:18:44 <timeless> anyway, there are other ways
Nov 28 20:18:46 <halley> I hate the dpad being inside the foldup keyboard.
Nov 28 20:18:53 <timeless> hover could have a timer that offers to tick
Nov 28 20:18:58 <timeless> (yes perf people will kill me)
Nov 28 20:19:23 <timeless> so if you stop tapping on the screen for say 20s, it could switch back to "click"
Nov 28 20:19:30 <timeless> not sure that's a good thing or not
Nov 28 20:19:32 <timeless> but it could do it
Nov 28 20:19:42 <halley> 20sec is an eternity.
Nov 28 20:19:44 <timeless> (things that would need to be prototyped/tested/tweaked)
Nov 28 20:20:01 <timeless> halley: if you're in a hurry, tap click and tap your target
Nov 28 20:20:36 <timeless> i think one question i have is how imprecise and how clustered will things be
Nov 28 20:20:37 <fysa> speech recognition and speaking the text of the link.
Nov 28 20:20:58 <timeless> iow, am i really dealing w/ cases where links are 1x1 px each
Nov 28 20:21:05 <timeless> all adjacent in a 4x4 grid?
Nov 28 20:21:17 <timeless> such that i need 800% or 1600% zoom?
Nov 28 20:21:28 <timeless> or can i simply offer 200% zoom (as i did in my mock up)
Nov 28 20:21:44 <sp3000> those wouldn't work on common hardware so I don't know if you want to deal with quite that
Nov 28 20:21:50 <timeless> note: theoretically someone could make a Gimp app using a web page
Nov 28 20:22:00 <timeless> in that case, pixel perfect could be painfully required
Nov 28 20:22:02 <sp3000> 3x 4x sounds reasonable
Nov 28 20:23:10 <pupnik> hrm
Nov 28 20:23:12 <sp3000> but a mockup probably helps figure out the factor better
Nov 28 20:23:15 <Tak> timeless: yeah, wtf is with the dpad being there?
Nov 28 20:23:24 <Tak> they killed gaming on the n810 deader than it already was
Nov 28 20:23:40 <timeless> tak: did i mention that afaict none of the nokians i know had *any* influence over the hardware design/layout
Nov 28 20:23:54 <Tak> figures
Nov 28 20:24:02 <pupnik> if the dpad is easy action, can't your thumbs hit it, along with letters on the right?
Nov 28 20:24:19 <pupnik> while index fingers stabilize the unit?
Nov 28 20:24:21 <Tak> the people that design and/or layout the hardware, have they ever seen or touched a tablet?
Nov 28 20:24:50 <pupnik> have you touched a N810 yet Tak?
Nov 28 20:25:03 <elb> is it really so horrible to slide out the keyboard?
Nov 28 20:25:11 <Tak> Yes.
Nov 28 20:25:16 <timeless> you generally have issues w/ the up arrow key
Nov 28 20:25:22 <Tak> err
Nov 28 20:25:26 <timeless> because you run up against the rail
Nov 28 20:25:27 <Tak> pupnik: No.  elb: Yes.
Nov 28 20:25:31 <elb> why is that?
Nov 28 20:25:32 <pupnik> mk
Nov 28 20:25:35 <timeless> left/right/down aren't so bad
Nov 28 20:25:38 <elb> (I have not touched an N810)
Nov 28 20:25:39 * timeless pokes pupnik
Nov 28 20:25:50 <Tak> Let me use fceu as my example.
Nov 28 20:25:59 <timeless> you're not likely to bleed into QAZ from right
Nov 28 20:26:09 <timeless> but it's not soft, fairly hard metal
Nov 28 20:26:27 <timeless> (duh, yeah yeah, but still...)
Nov 28 20:26:33 <timeless> (it could habe been rubber...)
Nov 28 20:26:35 <Tak> Since there were no hardware buttons on the RHS, and in any case, you could only press one hardware button at a time, onscreen A/B/Sel/Start buttons were added to the right side of the UI
Nov 28 20:26:44 <elb> mercury, for example, makes poor casing material ;-)
Nov 28 20:26:59 <timeless> :)
Nov 28 20:27:05 <timeless> tin isn't much better :|
Nov 28 20:27:07 <Tak> and it's kind of symmetrical on the 770 and n800 to have your left thumb on the dpad and your right thumb on AB
Nov 28 20:27:22 <elb> why could you only press one hardware button at a time?
Nov 28 20:27:29 <timeless> tak: believe me, normal people aren't the only ones who complain about lack of gaming
Nov 28 20:27:46 * timeless pokes pupnik, last call
Nov 28 20:28:15 <Tak> but with the n810, you'll need to hold the kb slid out and dpad at the lower left of the screen, with AB at the upper right of the screen and kind of play at an awkward diagonal
Nov 28 20:28:19 <elb> anyway, yeah, it does seem that a portable device wins by having a good d-pad and a few hardware buttons in convenient proximity to each other
Nov 28 20:28:33 <Tak> elb: The hardware wouldn't register more than one.
Nov 28 20:28:38 <elb> are there hardware keys on the RHS which could be used to be A/B/etc. ?
Nov 28 20:28:47 <elb> oh, so a specific hardware limitation with the existing buttons?
Nov 28 20:28:54 <Tak> There weren't.  I was using zoom for a while
Nov 28 20:29:01 <cbx33> hmpf
Nov 28 20:29:10 <elb> (note that, I have no idea about the nokia tablets, but key de-duping is generally performed in software, simply to keep from annoying users)
Nov 28 20:29:11 <cbx33> 2:36 left
Nov 28 20:29:14 <pupnik> Tak: i think the keypad registers multiple keypresses
Nov 28 20:29:58 <sp3000> Tak: onscreen buttons at bottom of screen aren't impossible to thumb about iirc with while using the keys
Nov 28 20:30:35 <pupnik> a/b/c/d buttons can be on keyboard afaict
Nov 28 20:30:39 <elb> I would think that with the N810 keyboard, some RHS keys could be made into a/b/whatever keys
Nov 28 20:30:51 <elb> thus putting hte d-pad and keys in a horizontal line
Nov 28 20:31:07 <pupnik> yah
Nov 28 20:31:37 <sp3000> (if there's a problem getting simultaneous keys so you need onscreen buttons in the first place; I have no idea)
Nov 28 20:33:57 <timeless> elb: yeah, you could easily make backspace+enter into a/b
Nov 28 20:34:00 <timeless> possibly fn=x, rightshift=y
Nov 28 20:34:04 <timeless> problem is, what do you do for n800/770? :)
Nov 28 20:34:29 <fysa> as soon as I get XMaeme working, I will try the Wiimote as an emulator controller. ;)
Nov 28 20:34:34 <elb> it's hard to revise the past :-)
Nov 28 20:34:44 <sp3000> you pick the other ui variant for the other hw :)
Nov 28 20:34:47 <elb> I'm just saying, the declaration that  slide-out keyboard is uniformly bad seems reactionary to me :-)
Nov 28 20:35:40 <timeless> elb: sounds like you're an optimist
Nov 28 20:35:47 <sp3000> (and if you use spare space for onscreen buttons, it's not even variants, just alternative controls)
Nov 28 20:35:55 <elb> timeless: I'm a developer :-)
Nov 28 20:36:09 <elb> timeless: "NOOOOO! Change!" is a common cry ;-)
Nov 28 20:42:19 <Tak> fysa: what's to get working?
Nov 28 20:47:44 <pupnik> xmaeme works fine here
Nov 28 20:48:08 <Tak> pupnik: have you tried xmame as well?
Nov 28 20:48:10 <maddler> evening all
Nov 28 20:48:34 <Tak> elb: slideout keyboard isn't uniformly bad, but putting the dpad on it is, IMO
Nov 28 20:48:35 <pupnik> not lately - i did around april
Nov 28 20:49:36 <roue> I got an N800 this week (OS2008). When I hit a text box with my finger the minikeyboard pops up most of the time. Sometimes I get the fullsize thumbboard. I can't seem to figure out how to make the thumboard come up every time, though. What's the trick? thanks.
Nov 28 20:49:48 <pupnik> Gravitar and Space Duel are gorgeous on tablets
Nov 28 20:50:12 <Tak> roue: just make sure it's very obviously a fingerpress and not a stylus click
Nov 28 20:50:19 <pupnik> eat, eat!  you all skin and bones!
Nov 28 20:50:37 * Tak only bones and organs
Nov 28 20:50:54 <roue> Tak -- obvious how? I have pretty big fingers. I've tried pressing longer, harder, softer. I'm not seeing it.
Nov 28 20:51:03 <fysa> Tak: OS2008, missing libglade2-0 for some reason
Nov 28 20:51:26 <fysa> Tak: or the wrong XMaeme is in the .install on maemo.org
Nov 28 20:51:29 <Tak> wtf, seriously?
Nov 28 20:52:36 <fysa> The following packages will be REMOVED:
Nov 28 20:52:36 <fysa>   osso-software-version
Nov 28 20:52:36 <fysa> The following packages will be upgraded:
Nov 28 20:52:36 <fysa>   libglade2-0
Nov 28 20:52:43 <fysa> that could be it,
Nov 28 20:54:14 <Tak> the app manager won't autoupgrade libglade2?
Nov 28 20:54:15 <doc|work> roue: also, pressing the centre button on the cursor brings up the thumbboard
Nov 28 20:54:28 <roue> thanks doc|work
Nov 28 20:54:37 <doc|work> I was having trouble with libglade too yesterday
Nov 28 20:54:49 <fysa> sounds like it doesn't want to autoupgrade it because that would mean uninstalling osso-software-version
Nov 28 20:55:20 <Tak> wtf, am I the only one using libglade?
Nov 28 20:55:32 * Tak reaches his wtf quota and explodes
Nov 28 20:56:07 <doc|work> Tak: nope
Nov 28 20:56:18 <fysa> Package: libglade2-0
Nov 28 20:56:19 <fysa> Versions:
Nov 28 20:56:19 <fysa> 1:2.6.2-1indt1(/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras_dists_chinook_free_binary-armel_Packages)(/var/lib/apt/lists/repostory.maemo.org_extras_dists_chinook_free_binary-armel_Packages)
Nov 28 20:56:19 <fysa> 1:2.4.0-1osso2(/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_dists_chinook_free_binary-armel_Packages)(/var/lib/dpkg/status)
Nov 28 20:56:32 <doc|work> I'm getting versioning problems
Nov 28 20:56:41 <fysa> that could be my problem.
Nov 28 20:56:52 <Tak> hmm, I'm just using the version in the sdk
Nov 28 20:56:53 <inz> Anyone care to test sgt-puzzles for OS2008 ( http://maemo-hackers.org/sgt-puzzles.install )
Nov 28 20:57:04 <Tak> libglade2-0 (>= 1:2.6.1)
Nov 28 20:57:26 <fysa> apt-cache showpkg libglade2-0
Nov 28 20:57:28 <doc|work> same here, but I'm getting missing package 1:2.4.0
Nov 28 20:58:03 <Tak> haha, crap
Nov 28 20:58:14 <Tak> I must have gotten the indt one installed in my sdk somehow
Nov 28 20:59:08 * Tak downgrade, rebuild, reupload
Nov 28 20:59:27 <fysa> ah :)
Nov 28 21:00:21 <Tak> there we go: libglade2-0 (>= 1:2.3.6)
Nov 28 21:00:27 <doc|work> Provides: 1:2.6.2-1indt1 and 2.4.0-1osso2
Nov 28 21:00:32 <doc|work> that broken? :/
Nov 28 21:01:46 <doc|work> although it still says missing
Nov 28 21:02:38 <pupnik> yeah that indt (idnt?) is odd
Nov 28 21:02:59 <Tak> uploaded, should be in the repo shortly
Nov 28 21:03:02 <doc|work> nope, indt here
Nov 28 21:03:12 <doc|work> might try removing it
Nov 28 21:04:07 <fysa> yeah, give it a bit
Nov 28 21:04:09 <doc|work> hmmm, says only one is installed ...
Nov 28 21:04:19 <fysa> I think that libglade2-0 is poisoned.
Nov 28 21:04:32 <doc|work> leave it to maemo.org to fix?
Nov 28 21:04:43 <fysa> and xmaeme was built for the newer non-friendly indt libglade, sounds like he just rebuilt for the regular libglade
Nov 28 21:04:52 <Tak> yes.
Nov 28 21:04:53 <fysa> which means libglade2-0 will not need to be upgraded for xmaeme to install
Nov 28 21:04:58 <Tak> correct.
Nov 28 21:05:03 <cbx33> 2:20 left
Nov 28 21:05:07 <cbx33> man this is torture
Nov 28 21:05:22 <fysa> I believe the issue is/was affecting some other packages
Nov 28 21:05:37 <Tak> although the whole incompatible-libglade-in-garage-extras business should probably be resolved
Nov 28 21:05:39 <fysa> perhaps that indt libglade needs to be kicked out of maemo extras chinook completely?
Nov 28 21:06:40 * Tak => home
Nov 28 21:08:24 <fysa> thanks for the update, tak
Nov 28 21:08:25 <IPvFun> hey, any scoop on the dos and donts of installing apps from the os2007 repository on a n800 os2008?
Nov 28 21:08:35 <fysa> I can now duct-tape a Wiimote to the top of my N800 and try playing mario ;)
Nov 28 21:09:04 <IPvFun> repositories*
Nov 28 21:09:15 * czr whees
Nov 28 21:09:47 <alterego> I thought maemo came with it's own libglade.
Nov 28 21:09:54 <pupnik> there's a genesis emu that just needs a hi-res timer in arm asm
Nov 28 21:09:55 <alterego> In fact .. I know it does because I've used it!
Nov 28 21:09:58 <fysa> it does.
Nov 28 21:10:05 <fysa> but garage is tainted with a newer version
Nov 28 21:10:09 <fysa> so apt-get install libglade2-0 will try to install it..
Nov 28 21:10:25 <fysa> and tak's xmaeme was built against a newer-than-included libglade
Nov 28 21:10:39 <fysa> so it would force your device to try to install the tainted libglade2-0
Nov 28 21:10:46 <fysa> which app catalog was smart enough not to allow
Nov 28 21:10:52 <pupnik> aha!
Nov 28 21:10:57 <fysa> thus 'does not meet dependencies: libglade2-0'
Nov 28 21:11:13 <buck68> anybody know if multi-boot with n800 and os2008 developer image is feasible?
Nov 28 21:12:29 <alterego> buck68, sure. If you know what you're doing it's quite a simple process really.
Nov 28 21:12:56 <fysa> but then again, what isn't in that case? :)
Nov 28 21:13:05 <alterego> :)
Nov 28 21:13:18 <alterego> I was going to work on that and USB host moding my N800 tonight.
Nov 28 21:13:20 <buck68> alterego: I looked at this:  http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/3-x/howto_dualboot_bora.html
Nov 28 21:13:30 <alterego> Depends if I get this "real" work finished though ^_^
Nov 28 21:13:51 <alterego> buck68, If you understand what's going on there. Then you should have a good chance of doing it yourself.
Nov 28 21:13:55 <buck68> i tried it, substituting 4.0 stuff where it seemed appropriate.. but when I got to the step of booting on the n800, the kernel seemed to hang
Nov 28 21:13:59 <czr> alterego, what you working on?
Nov 28 21:14:15 <alterego> czr, crappy website.
Nov 28 21:14:30 <czr> sounds like "fun" :-)
Nov 28 21:14:38 <buck68> i'll give it another go...
Nov 28 21:14:38 <fysa> is anyone doing actual compiling on device itself?
Nov 28 21:14:41 <alterego> czr, I don't really like doing websites much. But it's where most of my work comes in :/
Nov 28 21:14:48 <czr> I'm trying to come up with some window-level property which people would be familiar with (other than 'modal')
Nov 28 21:14:51 <alterego> Freakin' sods law. I'm not even that good at it!
Nov 28 21:14:58 <czr> alterego, I feel your pain
Nov 28 21:14:58 <buck68> that's what i'd like to do, via scratchbox cpu transparency
Nov 28 21:15:12 <czr> alterego, just like my material dev project, I could care less in all honesty :-)
Nov 28 21:15:32 <alterego> Heh
Nov 28 21:15:45 <czr> I'd much rather be working with tlb-benchmarking
Nov 28 21:16:01 <alterego> Well, this is nearly up and the next project at my door is _far_ more interesting. And it's todo with Ruby and the tablets ;)
Nov 28 21:16:08 <czr> and trying to solve online defragmentation issues so that hugetlbfs could be more useful
Nov 28 21:16:15 <alterego> I've always said I would like to get paid to do ruby-maemo stuff ^_^
Nov 28 21:16:43 <czr> maybe you will, one of these days :-)
Nov 28 21:17:12 <alterego> czr, that's the point of the next contract I've been asked to do. Ruby + Maemo :P
Nov 28 21:17:21 <czr> that's nice
Nov 28 21:17:39 <czr> bleh. I'll need to write a test program
Nov 28 21:18:06 <czr> or anyone around who can tell me whether it's true than when you set a GtkWindow modal = True, it won't affect anything if that is the main window of the app?
Nov 28 21:19:03 <alterego> czr, I've got a feeling it doesn't .. But don't quote me ;)
Nov 28 21:19:18 <alterego> czr, you could write a 3 liner in python ;)
Nov 28 21:19:30 <czr> I could?
Nov 28 21:19:41 <czr> I could I guess. but I don't do pygtk really
Nov 28 21:19:50 <alterego> Sure, window = new Gtk.window(false)
Nov 28 21:19:56 <alterego> Well, I don't know it either.
Nov 28 21:19:59 <alterego> I could do it in Ruby
Nov 28 21:20:06 * czr shrugs
Nov 28 21:20:09 <czr> I can always try
Nov 28 21:20:10 <alterego> Would you like me to test for you?
Nov 28 21:20:18 <czr> sure, if it's not too much to ask
Nov 28 21:20:25 <alterego> No, two ticks.
Nov 28 21:20:30 <czr> cool
Nov 28 21:20:40 <czr> I should really start using pygtk one of these days
Nov 28 21:20:57 <czr> but I'm not really a GUI person. not with crappy toolkits at least ;-)
Nov 28 21:21:18 <czr> oh. did I say crappy? what I meant was "very very flexible"
Nov 28 21:22:22 <alterego> czr, a toplevel window right?
Nov 28 21:22:27 <czr> alterego, yup
Nov 28 21:22:51 <czr> stick a label in the middle of it and set the window modality = True and see whether it is modal or not
Nov 28 21:23:09 <alterego> Yeah, done that.
Nov 28 21:23:24 <czr> is it? modal? :-)
Nov 28 21:23:25 <alterego> It's not modal no.
Nov 28 21:23:28 <czr> right.
Nov 28 21:23:34 <czr> thanks :-)
Nov 28 21:23:36 <alterego> It's pretty though.
Nov 28 21:23:39 <czr> heh
Nov 28 21:23:43 <alterego> And I did it in 4 lines in IRB
Nov 28 21:23:46 <czr> I had two lines for 2 years in my material
Nov 28 21:23:49 <IPvFun> is the os2008 browser engine gecko by default
Nov 28 21:24:07 <alterego> IPvFun, by default and only.
Nov 28 21:24:08 <czr> and yesterday someone started whining about those two lines. they were just an example on the property interface of GTK+
Nov 28 21:24:14 <czr> but it used the 'modal' property
Nov 28 21:24:14 <alterego> IPvFun, There is no Opera in OS2008
Nov 28 21:24:26 <alterego> Hah
Nov 28 21:24:30 <czr> IPvFun, you could always install Ballet on it
Nov 28 21:24:32 <alterego> Yeah, that's funny.
Nov 28 21:24:50 <czr> alterego, irony is that I don't even use modality anywhere in the proper examples
Nov 28 21:24:52 <IPvFun> I'd rather go with gecko
Nov 28 21:24:57 <alterego> So you were just checking to see whether the property actually had any effect so you didn't have to change those lines aye? ;)
Nov 28 21:25:01 <czr> ah, a lizard lover
Nov 28 21:25:36 <IPvFun> ;)
Nov 28 21:25:40 <czr> alterego, well. just verifying what I got in one of the emails where someone said that I should use the "transient-to" property but when I told it was for top-level window they said that it "it's useless".
Nov 28 21:25:43 <alterego> Crap .. All these distractions ..
Nov 28 21:25:59 <czr> just verying what "it's useless means", since the GTK+ docs don't say anything about this
Nov 28 21:26:01 <alterego> Right
Nov 28 21:26:09 <czr> thanks
Nov 28 21:26:15 <alterego> np
Nov 28 21:26:18 <czr> alterego, can you do another test? :-)
Nov 28 21:26:24 <alterego> I know ruby/gtk very well so anytime.
Nov 28 21:26:26 <czr> try setting resizable to false :-)
Nov 28 21:26:28 <alterego> Yeah?
Nov 28 21:26:31 <czr> 'resizable'
Nov 28 21:26:33 <alterego> Okay
Nov 28 21:26:43 <czr> I'm going to replace modal with that.
Nov 28 21:28:00 <alterego> czr, works how it should. Window is not resizable :)
Nov 28 21:28:07 <czr> cool. thanks a lot
Nov 28 21:28:12 <alterego> np
Nov 28 21:28:22 <alterego> Lot quicker than writing out crappy tests in C :P
Nov 28 21:29:50 <czr> true that
Nov 28 21:30:05 <czr> should learn pygtk one of these days
Nov 28 21:30:12 <czr> but as we see, I don't need to ;-)
Nov 28 21:30:16 <alterego> Hah
Nov 28 21:30:24 <alterego> Yeah, you should learn ruby gtk instead.
Nov 28 21:30:45 * czr sets the "open" property on window to TRUE
Nov 28 21:30:51 <czr> that's where you can.. you know. :-)
Nov 28 21:31:07 <czr> I think I'm beyond ruby. python got to me first.
Nov 28 21:31:34 <alterego> Well, as long as you enjoy using it I guess I can live with it ;)
Nov 28 21:31:42 * czr nods
Nov 28 21:31:44 <alterego> But if you don't .. You can always try Ruby :P
Nov 28 21:31:54 <czr> btw, is extending ruby with C painful and does the API change a lot?
Nov 28 21:32:11 <alterego> No
Nov 28 21:32:16 <czr> and better yet, is it documented?
Nov 28 21:32:20 <alterego> It's _really_ easy.
Nov 28 21:32:27 <alterego> Ah, documented not so much no.
Nov 28 21:32:39 <alterego> The best resource is a chapter on it in "Programming Ruby"
Nov 28 21:32:41 <czr> http://docs.python.org/api/api.html
Nov 28 21:32:46 <alterego> That and ruby.h and intern.h
Nov 28 21:32:47 <czr> heh. that's not good :-)
Nov 28 21:33:37 <alterego> Well, it's not so bad. You get a feel for how things are structured quite quickly and it just becomes easy. If something seems to hard then you're doing it wrong and should check for an easy way to do it.
Nov 28 21:33:52 <czr> sure. similar to CPython really I guess
Nov 28 21:34:00 <czr> but having proper docs for everything really really helps
Nov 28 21:34:20 <czr> anyhow, I think I'll stick to python for a while longer :-). it's just so sneaky.
Nov 28 21:34:29 <alterego> Heh
Nov 28 21:34:29 <czr> and fuzzy. and warm.
Nov 28 21:34:45 <alterego> I got the impression writing C extensions for Python was painful.
Nov 28 21:34:57 <alterego> Looks a lot like ruby.
Nov 28 21:34:59 <czr> oh?
Nov 28 21:34:59 <alterego> Just not as OO.
Nov 28 21:35:01 <czr> it's not
Nov 28 21:35:14 <czr> well, it's structured around namespaces/dicts
Nov 28 21:35:18 <alterego> The API's are almost identical.
Nov 28 21:35:24 <czr> since python is based on dynamic namespaces
Nov 28 21:35:36 <alterego> Yeah, that's where the differences seem to be.
Nov 28 21:35:41 <czr> which pretty much means that you can do metamorphic template classes _if_ you want them
Nov 28 21:35:48 <alterego> If you take some of the Object orientation bits. That's like the Ruby API.
Nov 28 21:36:01 <alterego> Then you have helper macros like STR2CSTR etc.
Nov 28 21:36:01 <czr> and all kinds of other very-OO stuff which goes beyond my capacity
Nov 28 21:36:31 <alterego> Anyhow .. More distractions and I've got a deadline.
Nov 28 21:36:39 <czr> CPython also has macros. but the symbol space is more structured. you'll never see anything that doesn't start with Py_ or PY_
Nov 28 21:36:45 <czr> chop chop alterego
Nov 28 21:36:50 <alterego> :P
Nov 28 21:37:01 <alterego> Thank god for rails ..
Nov 28 21:37:02 <czr> thanks again :-)
Nov 28 21:37:12 * czr puts a train on alterego's rails
Nov 28 21:37:12 <alterego> np
Nov 28 21:37:23 <czr> 'do the locomotive..'
Nov 28 21:37:27 <alterego> Hah
Nov 28 21:46:51 <mouta> Hello
Nov 28 21:47:17 <mouta> Is it possible to have windows with alpha channel for transparency in maemo ?
Nov 28 21:47:35 <mouta> (using gdk_screen_get_rgba_colormap)
Nov 28 21:50:07 <fysa> I don't know the real answer to the that, but as I believe that's the method X-Chat uses for transparency and X-Chat gives me a "this window manager does not support transparency" I'm thinking not?
Nov 28 21:50:32 <mouta> mmm, I don't know X-Chat
Nov 28 21:51:32 <mouta> How would you do a osd-like text rendering (thus no bordered window) ?
Nov 28 21:51:44 <fysa> http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.0/gdk/GdkScreen.html
Nov 28 21:52:18 <mouta> I've already seen that page but it doesn't help me
Nov 28 21:52:53 <fysa> hmmm
Nov 28 21:53:09 <fysa> I don't think I've seen an app use no bordered window yet.
Nov 28 21:54:02 <mouta> But menu are drawn with no border...
Nov 28 21:54:08 <mouta> s/menu/menus
Nov 28 21:54:47 <fysa> are you using OS2008?
Nov 28 21:55:13 <mouta> I guess : maemo 4.0
Nov 28 21:56:14 <timelyx> fysa/sp3000/et al
Nov 28 21:56:25 <timelyx> so, i'm pretty sure that the magic size is 256x256
Nov 28 21:56:54 <timelyx> basically either i allow a 128x128 block (w/ stackables for both zoom and map)
Nov 28 21:57:02 <timelyx> or i show only one of those two at 256x256
Nov 28 21:57:20 <timelyx> or perhaps, one at 256x256 and the other at 128x128
Nov 28 21:57:38 <timelyx> but i think that i can stack those together on a single side
Nov 28 21:57:52 <timelyx> and have them easily run away from the cursor when the cursor approaches
Nov 28 21:59:25 <timelyx> i'll have to see if it's possible to fit all the necessary buttons around such a layout
Nov 28 22:04:07 <sp3000> hmm, there should be an airmoz thing on rsn
Nov 28 22:08:06 <bstock> hey, anyone know where i can get an n810? everywhere i look just says preorder
Nov 28 22:08:45 <mouta> expansys.com ?
Nov 28 22:09:54 <bstock> hmm
Nov 28 22:09:57 <bstock> anywhere in the US?
Nov 28 22:10:07 <mouta> sorry, I can't help
Nov 28 22:11:20 <ldspartan> wee, when'd skype start installing from app manager on the 800?
Nov 28 22:11:32 <GeneralAntilles> Yesterday.
Nov 28 22:12:10 <ldspartan> fantastic.
Nov 28 22:22:09 <killfill> hi..
Nov 28 22:22:37 <killfill> anyone coul make openssh-server work on os2008?.. cannot login from my pc.. :S
Nov 28 22:23:28 <mouta> What is the difference between maemo4.0 and OS2008 ?
Nov 28 22:25:27 <killfill> i need to login to write the vpnc.conf file, so i can connect to the office...
Nov 28 22:25:33 <GeneralAntilles> killfill, install becomeroot
Nov 28 22:25:34 <killfill> and thouse use the sip phone..
Nov 28 22:25:44 <GeneralAntilles> It's in the eko1 repo
Nov 28 22:25:47 <GeneralAntilles> bora
Nov 28 22:25:50 <killfill> becomeroot?..
Nov 28 22:25:51 <_Monkey> well, becomeroot is a quick howto to become root here http://maemo.org/community/wiki/HowTo_EASILY_BecomeRoot  and more information is here http://maemo.org/community/wiki/HowDoiBecomeRoot
Nov 28 22:26:04 <killfill> bora?.. will it conflic with chincook?
Nov 28 22:26:58 <GeneralAntilles> No . . .
Nov 28 22:27:03 <GeneralAntilles> that's why I'm telling you to install it. :)
Nov 28 22:27:42 <killfill> and what do i win with that?.. i can enable the ssh login as root?..
Nov 28 22:27:46 <killfill> :)
Nov 28 22:28:00 <fysa> it will force you to set a password
Nov 28 22:28:06 <fysa> which you can use to ssh as root
Nov 28 22:28:20 <fysa> or use 'sudo gainroot' from xterm
Nov 28 22:28:52 <killfill> aah it denys becouse its using the default pass..
Nov 28 22:29:42 <killfill> with sudo gainroot, it tells "Enable RD mode "
Nov 28 22:31:52 <timelyx> killfill: i have an alternative to becomeroot :)
Nov 28 22:31:59 <timelyx> _Monkey capture-root?
Nov 28 22:31:59 <_Monkey> timelyx: bugger all, i dunno
Nov 28 22:32:05 <timelyx> _Monkey captureroot?
Nov 28 22:32:05 <_Monkey> bugger all, i dunno, timelyx
Nov 28 22:33:14 <timelyx> http://timeless.justdave.net/capture-root-0.1.deb
Nov 28 22:35:13 <killfill> GeneralAntilles: you mean to install this repo? http://stage.maemo.org/~ferenc/bora_sdk.install
Nov 28 22:35:40 <GeneralAntilles> Uh, no.
Nov 28 22:36:17 <GeneralAntilles> http://www.gronmayer.com/it/
Nov 28 22:36:20 <GeneralAntilles> Eko One on here
Nov 28 22:37:50 <killfill> oh cool a list of repos.. :)
Nov 28 22:38:35 <GeneralAntilles> That page is OS2007
Nov 28 22:38:39 <GeneralAntilles> So only grab the Eko One
Nov 28 22:38:54 <GeneralAntilles> Switch over to the OS2008 page for the ones you need.
Nov 28 22:39:10 <ds3> after 2 weeks of usage where the N770 is the primary device -- it needs more memory!@#$!@#!@#$@#
Nov 28 22:40:26 <fysa> maybe we should add gronmayer to /topic?
Nov 28 22:40:31 <killfill> im tempted to press "Select all repos"..
Nov 28 22:40:47 * timelyx thinks we're probably fairly close to out of space :(
Nov 28 22:41:50 <ds3> is OS2007 and the N800 really more memory efficient or is there enough bloat in OS2007 to be about the same as OS2006 on the 770?
Nov 28 22:42:17 <timelyx> Khertan_TheReal: i have repository.maemo.org/extras mistral free
Nov 28 22:42:47 <killfill> greate!
Nov 28 22:42:50 <killfill> GeneralAntilles: tahnks!
Nov 28 22:43:56 <timelyx> ds3: n800 has more memory than the 770
Nov 28 22:44:27 <ds3> timelyx: but is OS2007 so much fatter that it overcomes that?
Nov 28 22:46:47 <timelyx> i think we've been adding servicesthat eat memory
Nov 28 22:46:58 * timelyx shrugs
Nov 28 22:47:49 <ds3> hmm tempting to try the N800... the N770 + a bluetooth keyboard and a BT phone is almost prefect except for those out of memory errors
Nov 28 22:49:13 <doc|work> hmmm, is the battery cover on any one elses n800 a little loose?
Nov 28 22:49:48 <sp3000> clanks a bit but not as in coming loose
Nov 28 22:49:58 <doc|work> yup
Nov 28 22:51:38 <killfill> damn.. the sip thing wont connect via vpnc..
Nov 28 22:55:18 <killfill> i think its a bug..
Nov 28 22:58:01 <bedboi> hi all
Nov 28 23:03:36 <killfill> the server is not getting any request...
Nov 28 23:03:40 <killfill> (from sip)
Nov 28 23:04:25 <killfill> while ssh and web works okey
Nov 28 23:05:01 <killfill> could it be that the sip program is trying to use wlan0 alwais?.. and not seen tun0?
Nov 28 23:07:45 <killfill> heh nice post" Meh. Call me when the RTCOMM beta or OS2008 SIP stack can work over a vpnc tunnel."
Nov 28 23:07:48 <killfill> :P
Nov 28 23:09:50 <killfill> its deinitly not sending things thgought tun0
Nov 28 23:10:20 <timelyx> Khertan_TheReal: python-hildon doesn't install
Nov 28 23:10:38 <timelyx> it complains about a bad version depends for hildonlibs
Nov 28 23:11:43 <killfill> anyone ever uses sip phone thought vpnc?..
Nov 28 23:11:44 <|tbb|> is it worth to flash the latest n800 os8 image instead of the n810 os image on a n800?
Nov 28 23:13:11 <lardman|afk> |tbb|: I'd say yes as it's got unspecified bugfixes
Nov 28 23:13:15 <lardman|afk> night all
Nov 28 23:15:21 <killfill> its not sending via wifi either.. :S
Nov 28 23:17:12 <|tbb|> is it possible to exclude folders while  ukmp scan the whole device?
Nov 28 23:17:42 <buck68> anyone here know if scratchbox cpu transparency is supported under maemo 4.0?
Nov 28 23:19:53 <czr> buck68, yes.
Nov 28 23:20:02 <czr> buck68, although you might want to be more specific
Nov 28 23:28:58 <|tbb|> what the heck 10kb download rate for the n800 os8 image on maemo org
Nov 28 23:29:33 <czr> os8? you installing apple os? :-)
Nov 28 23:29:50 <czr> |tbb|, there's a torrent floating around. check the channel log (see topic)
Nov 28 23:32:32 <GeneralAntilles> http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3910524/
Nov 28 23:32:38 * GeneralAntilles does his paste-link dance.
Nov 28 23:32:49 * czr watches in horror
Nov 28 23:32:58 <czr> it's somewhat hypnotizing
Nov 28 23:33:16 <czr> in a "eyes melting but must keep staring" kind of way
Nov 28 23:33:59 <lophyte> GeneralAntilles, ROFL at the comments
Nov 28 23:34:01 <|tbb|> i will dl it tommorrow, from maemo thx
Nov 28 23:34:12 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, they're really duking it out in there. :\
Nov 28 23:34:15 <|tbb|> czr: do u use ukmp
Nov 28 23:34:22 <czr> |tbb|, no
Nov 28 23:34:36 <GeneralAntilles> You complain about the download, but you don't actually want a solution?
Nov 28 23:34:36 <lophyte> GeneralAntilles, its hilarious how people jump on the first guy
Nov 28 23:35:11 <alterego> Hah
Nov 28 23:35:30 <|tbb|> i just wonder whats up, 10 kbs reminds me to my isdn time
Nov 28 23:35:32 <alterego> I guess I was lucky being one of the first people to download the OS2008 beta.
Nov 28 23:35:39 <alterego> It wasn't even in announcements when I got it ..
Nov 28 23:36:14 <czr> |tbb|, the site has been slow ever since the beta went public
Nov 28 23:36:43 <czr> alterego, pygtk is better than raw gtk, but man, gtk is ugly :-)
Nov 28 23:36:44 <alterego> How long can it take 4k odd people to download it ..
Nov 28 23:36:47 <|tbb|> igot the os2k8 long time now, but no way to using any bt headset ive got
Nov 28 23:37:00 <alterego> czr, I'm not going to dissagree with you there ;)
Nov 28 23:37:09 <alterego> czr, what ever you do .. Don't use the tree view ^_^
Nov 28 23:37:14 <|tbb|> so i hope with the first beta of n800 os2008 it will work
Nov 28 23:37:15 <czr> alterego, heh
Nov 28 23:37:18 <czr> alterego, it's that bad?
Nov 28 23:37:39 <czr> alterego, what on earth am I supposed to use then?
Nov 28 23:37:45 <czr> "write your own widget"?
Nov 28 23:37:54 <alterego> czr, well. Not really, just badly documented and if you design your app MVC it adds another MVC layer that has to be integrated properly.
Nov 28 23:38:06 <czr> eww
Nov 28 23:38:16 <alterego> So you get an MMVVCC app :)
Nov 28 23:38:19 <czr> also, I think I found a bug in the gutsy theme or smt
Nov 28 23:38:24 <alterego> What's that in decimal :D
Nov 28 23:38:26 <czr> the more M, the merrier :-)
Nov 28 23:38:34 <|tbb|> it where nice if the rss applet stops scrolling while another application is in the foreground, so it saves cpu time
Nov 28 23:38:40 <czr> 2000 smt
Nov 28 23:38:42 <|tbb|> and save battery at least
Nov 28 23:39:13 <czr> |tbb|, have you filed a bug?
Nov 28 23:39:19 <GeneralAntilles> OS2008 Beta works fine with bluetooth headsets.
Nov 28 23:40:03 <|tbb|> GeneralAntilles: with skype? which bt headset do u got
Nov 28 23:40:06 <alterego> Logically it should really be MMCVCV
Nov 28 23:40:30 <czr> bleh. the pygtk tutorial is from 2005.
Nov 28 23:40:31 <|tbb|> czr: is this a bug? its more a wish ;)
Nov 28 23:40:40 <czr> |tbb|, file a feature request then
Nov 28 23:40:46 <GeneralAntilles> Dunno, don't use Skype, but as its an OS-level thing, I don't see why there would be a problem. Plantronics Voyager 510.
Nov 28 23:40:50 <czr> |tbb|, complaining here won't get it fixed/implemented :-)
Nov 28 23:41:26 <alterego> czr, a little advice when using Gtk. Take a Gtk::Window for instance. When you create one, instead of being procedural. Create your own AppWindow class and inherit from Gtk::Window. Then setup all the view attributes and internal signal logic. Then add children (which themselves should be inherited classes unless they're dead simple like a Label).
Nov 28 23:41:34 <|tbb|> GeneralAntilles: could u hear music in mono
Nov 28 23:41:47 <alterego> Do all that crap in your constructor.
Nov 28 23:42:04 <alterego> It makes for a nice clean Gtk application design IMO
Nov 28 23:42:26 <czr> alterego, so subclassing is the way to go?
Nov 28 23:42:50 <czr> alterego, I thought about that, but the pygtk tutorial seems to do some kind of middle way. it feels unnatural. good to know though.
Nov 28 23:42:51 <alterego> czr, yeah. That's how the pro's do it ;)
Nov 28 23:43:09 <GeneralAntilles> It's "you", and yes. Mind you, this is a bluetooth _headset_ and not a pair of bluetooth _headphones_, so mono is the only option. :)
Nov 28 23:43:09 <czr> "pro's". it's a matter of implementation bugs as well :-)
Nov 28 23:43:09 <|tbb|> anyone has tried iphones browser right now
Nov 28 23:43:19 <alterego> :)
Nov 28 23:43:51 <|tbb|> GeneralAntilles: ive got s9 motorolla bt headphone
Nov 28 23:44:14 <czr> alterego, the pygtk tutorial is horrible. it's like they took the obsolete gtk tutorial, then just rewrote it line by line using python. so it reads like C, but is not. yuck :-)
Nov 28 23:44:14 <|tbb|> it supports a2dp ;)
Nov 28 23:44:28 <alterego> czr, if you've done much work in GUI apps you'll understand that it gets ugly _quick_. So having a good MVC strategy is extremely important, languages like Python & Ruby make it easy to separate internal signal handlers and external ones by keeping the view logic inside your view class.
Nov 28 23:44:37 <GeneralAntilles> No A2DP yet.
Nov 28 23:44:52 <czr> alterego, I don't do GUI work. I do interesting stuff :-)
Nov 28 23:44:59 <alterego> czr, yeah. Same for the Ruby tutorial. It's more an introduction to using widgets and the Gtk architecture. Not about writing good apps in it.
Nov 28 23:45:05 <czr> alterego, but yeah, I know a thing or two about MVC. I wasn't always this picky about what I did
Nov 28 23:45:13 <alterego> Hah
Nov 28 23:45:27 <alterego> I only really like the M in MVC ^_^
Nov 28 23:45:42 <|tbb|> GeneralAntilles: which os2008 image do u use the latest one of the n810 or the n800 specific one
Nov 28 23:45:55 <GeneralAntilles> The N800 beta, like I said before.
Nov 28 23:45:56 <czr> alterego, pygtk is silly. for example, you can do this: print window.border_width. but window.border_width = 10 -> exception. need to use window.set_border_width(10). bleh
Nov 28 23:46:09 <czr> alterego, although I have an old version of it on my main system. maybe they've changed that.
Nov 28 23:46:20 <alterego> czr, that is pretty silly. Ruby allows both.
Nov 28 23:46:34 <czr> alterego, python should too. it's not rocket science.
Nov 28 23:47:15 <alterego> Yeh. There are a few PyGtk issues. But probably because it's all generated with SWIG. Where as Ruby/Gnome2 is SWIG and a lot of editing.
Nov 28 23:47:27 <czr> swig is evil.
Nov 28 23:47:33 <alterego> They've really tried hard to Rubinize the whole gobject stuff.
Nov 28 23:47:35 <alterego> Very clever.
Nov 28 23:47:36 <czr> I through it away after the first time I used it.
Nov 28 23:47:45 <czr> threw even
Nov 28 23:47:55 <alterego> I couldn't get it to work. So I just did everything by hand ;)
Nov 28 23:47:58 <czr> then decided that writing the stuff manually is much easier
Nov 28 23:48:03 * czr nods
Nov 28 23:48:36 <alterego> Gives you more control and 75% of bindings are no brainers. (Which thinking about SWIG should be able to handle easily but doesn't)
Nov 28 23:49:01 <killfill> hey GeneralAntilles do you happend to use SIP thoguht vpnc?
Nov 28 23:49:34 <GeneralAntilles> I use SIP, but not through vpnc.
Nov 28 23:52:17 <killfill> there seem to be a problem with this.. :S
Nov 28 23:53:20 <czr> alterego, comments like this in the tuto: # Clean up allocated memory and remove the timer
Nov 28 23:53:32 <czr> alterego, "clean up allocated memory"? come again? hello? this is python? bleh
Nov 28 23:53:50 <alterego> Hahah
Nov 28 23:54:15 <czr> someone should really rewrite the tutorial
Nov 28 23:54:52 <l7> bah, buy.com is charging the same price as amazon for the n800 now
Nov 28 23:55:05 <l7> wait, amazon's price went up too
Nov 28 23:55:06 <l7> weird
Nov 28 23:55:10 <GeneralAntilles> They ran out.
Nov 28 23:55:13 <|tbb|> whats the price now
Nov 28 23:55:30 <czr> USD is sliding down?
Nov 28 23:55:40 <GeneralAntilles> Ha
Nov 28 23:55:57 <bedboi> USD is sliding down since 4 months now
Nov 28 23:55:58 <zerojay> Happy time to be Canadian. :)
Nov 28 23:56:51 <czr> I'd think the canadian economy isn't isolated from the one in the states?
Nov 28 23:56:56 <czr> or is it?
Nov 28 23:57:05 <zerojay> It's not isolated, but we're doing just fine. :)
Nov 28 23:57:13 <czr> ah. good to hear
Nov 28 23:57:24 <GeneralAntilles> US exporters are happy.
Nov 28 23:57:38 <czr> there are us exporters?
Nov 28 23:57:48 <GeneralAntilles> Har har har
Nov 28 23:57:49 <bill20r3> exporters of money.
Nov 28 23:58:35 <zerojay> Hell, how many of these "HOW DO I ______?!?!?!?" posts are we going to get on ITT from that tamadrums888 person?
Nov 28 23:58:51 <GeneralAntilles> He's sent me a dozen PMs over the last hour.
Nov 28 23:58:57 <czr> zerojay, just don't tell him about maemo-devel, and I won't care :-)
Nov 28 23:59:09 <zerojay> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25 <-- top three posts
Nov 28 23:59:12 <GeneralAntilles> The trend of idiot noobs on ITT is driving me insane.
Nov 28 23:59:17 <zerojay> czr: Don't tempt me. :)
Nov 28 23:59:17 <czr> GeneralAntilles, prime ministers? :-)
Nov 28 23:59:24 <czr> zerojay, noooo. :-).
Nov 28 23:59:30 <alterego> zerojay, I'm sorry but I'm not going to have time to do your libid3 package tonight I don't think.
Nov 28 23:59:30 <czr> the list gets a fair amount of those as it is.
Nov 28 23:59:32 <GeneralAntilles> Again: Har har har
Nov 28 23:59:39 <alterego> zerojay, I'm still working and I've got a deadline tomorrow -_-
Nov 28 23:59:44 <alterego> 12am here ..
Nov 28 23:59:59 <zerojay> alterego: Don't worry about it, man. It's cool.
Nov 29 00:00:10 <GeneralAntilles> Seriously, I just want one page that I can link them to that will shut them all up.
Nov 29 00:01:28 <mouta> Dou you know if this is possible in maemo 4.0 : http://plan99.net/~mike/blog/?p=38 ?
Nov 29 00:01:53 <zerojay> No, not possible, I don't think.
Nov 29 00:01:56 <zerojay> No cairo.
Nov 29 00:02:10 <czr> zerojay, there's cairo
Nov 29 00:02:10 <zerojay> No composite manager.
Nov 29 00:02:18 <czr> but no composition with alpha-support
Nov 29 00:02:22 <czr> afaik
Nov 29 00:02:26 <zerojay> I wouldn't want it anyways.
Nov 29 00:02:31 <zerojay> It would slow the tablet to a crawl.
Nov 29 00:03:24 <alterego> You can do it with home applets.
Nov 29 00:03:36 <alterego> I've not tried with actual windows.
Nov 29 00:03:39 <zerojay> alterego: Slow the tablet down to a crawl, yes.
Nov 29 00:03:41 <czr> haha. one of the comments: "Hi , great job , i was exactly looking HOW TO use alpha channels , so , if isnt too much to ask , dont you have the same code in perl? I am actually using perl-Gtk"
Nov 29 00:03:48 <czr> I feel sorry for the blog-owner :-)
Nov 29 00:03:50 <alterego> zerojay, only when they're moving :P
Nov 29 00:04:12 <zerojay> Weird.. maps is now segfaulting on me.
Nov 29 00:04:18 <alterego> Uh-oh
Nov 29 00:04:29 <GeneralAntilles> Might try deleting the maps cache directory.
Nov 29 00:04:44 <zerojay> It died when I was trying to download them last time.. that's probably it.
Nov 29 00:04:47 <GeneralAntilles> I don't understand where the legions of idiots on the internet come from.
Nov 29 00:04:52 <GeneralAntilles> Yes, that's it.
Nov 29 00:04:56 <czr> GeneralAntilles, AOL
Nov 29 00:05:02 <zerojay> Bingo.
Nov 29 00:05:13 <czr> ever since black september
Nov 29 00:05:20 <GeneralAntilles> AOL doesn't have the subscribership to cover them all.
Nov 29 00:05:26 <zerojay> When I used to run a few channels years ago, we always had *.ipt.aol.com banned.
Nov 29 00:05:39 <GeneralAntilles> Ha
Nov 29 00:05:39 <czr> maybe the rest are italians
Nov 29 00:05:41 <zerojay> Not anymore.
Nov 29 00:05:44 * czr hides & runs
Nov 29 00:05:58 <zerojay> k, yeah, maps is working now.
Nov 29 00:06:26 <GeneralAntilles> I can't imagine how they expect normal people to use Map.
Nov 29 00:06:43 <zerojay> What's wrong with it?
Nov 29 00:06:58 <GeneralAntilles> If anything goes wrong with the download (which is disturbingly often), you have to delete the cache folder to get it working.
Nov 29 00:07:08 <zerojay> Beta. :)
Nov 29 00:07:18 <GeneralAntilles> Plus, they don't explain that you need twice the available storage to download and install the maps.
Nov 29 00:07:30 <GeneralAntilles> Which is going to be a big problem for US users.
Nov 29 00:08:02 <zerojay> Filed a bug?
Nov 29 00:08:18 <GeneralAntilles> Bleh
Nov 29 00:08:25 <zerojay> Oh shit.
Nov 29 00:08:36 <zerojay> I just went from having 3 karma to like.. 160.
Nov 29 00:09:28 <zerojay> Middle of the second page.
Nov 29 00:09:28 <czr> zerojay, they added something?
Nov 29 00:09:29 <zerojay> Cool.
Nov 29 00:09:41 <zerojay> czr: Fixed karma from Bugzilla.
Nov 29 00:09:49 <zerojay> Where I have something like 155 points coming from.
Nov 29 00:09:53 <czr> zerojay, that was already couple of days back
Nov 29 00:09:59 <zerojay> I just noticed it now.
Nov 29 00:10:03 * czr nods
Nov 29 00:10:14 <czr> I got bumped from end of page 8 to end of page 1 because of that.
Nov 29 00:10:34 <zerojay> Software.. it's supposed to be for having projects on Garage, right?
Nov 29 00:10:43 * czr shrugs
Nov 29 00:10:51 <czr> I doubt it
Nov 29 00:10:54 <zerojay> I somehow have a 3 there.
Nov 29 00:10:56 <czr> since I get 12 points from there
Nov 29 00:10:57 <zerojay> Well, whatever.
Nov 29 00:11:01 <czr> and I have no sw on garage
Nov 29 00:11:33 <czr> at least I don't think I do :-)
Nov 29 00:11:49 <zerojay> It's been sneaking onto Garage while you sleep.
Nov 29 00:11:55 <czr> damn it!
Nov 29 00:12:00 <czr> I suspected as much
Nov 29 00:12:14 <doc|work> speaking of the maps, mine always fail to download :/
Nov 29 00:12:22 <czr> it was brought up with all that "information wants to be free" cyberpunk attitude
Nov 29 00:12:35 <zerojay> The first time I ever used it, it worked fine. After the last reflash.. bleh.
Nov 29 00:12:55 <czr> that's why it's beta?
Nov 29 00:12:56 <GeneralAntilles> doc|work, you have at least twice the space available on your SD card?
Nov 29 00:13:02 <zerojay> yep
Nov 29 00:14:02 <doc|work> GeneralAntilles: I think so, depends on which card it wants to copy it to. Will try it again tonight and see
Nov 29 00:14:10 <GeneralAntilles> Internal
Nov 29 00:14:11 <_Monkey> Internal is crap for me
Nov 29 00:14:14 <GeneralAntilles> unless  you did some flubbing.
Nov 29 00:14:43 <doc|work> the one that came with it is now in my camera :)
Nov 29 00:15:19 <doc|work> hmmm, might have put a 32mb in its place (along with 1gb external) until I get an 8gb
Nov 29 00:19:25 <alterego> I should really stop keeping useless emails from people. It's hard to find the ones with _actual_ content that I need for tasks -_-
Nov 29 00:20:06 <maddler> alterego: true...
Nov 29 00:20:32 <czr> alterego, subfolders?
Nov 29 00:20:33 <alterego> I have a habit of keeping _all_ emails. Which makes it hard to find the ones from people I actually need, when I need them.
Nov 29 00:20:44 <czr> or vfolders with a working incremental search system?
Nov 29 00:20:44 <zerojay> Same here.
Nov 29 00:20:58 <alterego> czr, Not possible with hot/crap mail. Which unfortunately a lot of people tend to contact me with -_-
Nov 29 00:21:14 <czr> why would that affect what you have to use?
Nov 29 00:22:21 <mouta> When you say "home applet", do you mean something like in omweather ?
Nov 29 00:22:30 <alterego> mouta, yes.
Nov 29 00:24:40 <mouta> alterego, ok.
Nov 29 00:28:42 <maddler> alterego: some time ago I found a nice email indexing tool...
Nov 29 00:29:01 <maddler> hmmm... it was on freshmeat... but can't recall its name... :(
Nov 29 00:29:08 <maddler> looked prettu nice actually...
Nov 29 00:29:21 <alterego> maddler, yeah. I just need to spend some time sorting out my resources. I have so much going on I can't waste time on making my life easier! :/
Nov 29 00:29:45 <maddler> alterego: trust me, I know what you mean...
Nov 29 00:30:46 <maddler> lemme see if I can find that proggie...
Nov 29 00:31:30 <maddler> it was a program originally meant to archive mailing lists' messages
Nov 29 00:32:53 <maddler> no way... my brain blown...
Nov 29 00:33:07 <maddler> FOUND!
Nov 29 00:33:12 <maddler> http://freshmeat.net/projects/lurker/
Nov 29 00:33:22 <K`zan_800> Sigh, ubuntu is the ONLY box here that won't mount NFS paritions.
Nov 29 00:33:24 <maddler> well not so BLOWN!
Nov 29 00:33:36 <maddler> K`zan_800: apt-get install ntfs-3g
Nov 29 00:33:45 <maddler> doh... sorry! :D
Nov 29 00:33:52 <alterego> Well, I've just got to sort out a few more product images and I'm sorted for the evening.
Nov 29 00:34:01 <K`zan_800> maddler: Thanks *MUCH*!
Nov 29 00:34:09 <maddler> K`zan_800: no... ntfs <> NFS!
Nov 29 00:34:26 <K`zan_800> ntfs-3g is already the newest version.
Nov 29 00:34:42 <K`zan_800> No, not NTFS :-)
Nov 29 00:34:47 <maddler> you are supposed to get nfs-common
Nov 29 00:35:32 <K`zan_800> Getting it now, thanks.  God ubuntu is a MESS :-/.
Nov 29 00:35:46 <maddler> K`zan_800: eretic!
Nov 29 00:35:47 <maddler> :D
Nov 29 00:36:01 <maddler> Debian is God, and Ubuntu his Messiah! :D
Nov 29 00:36:16 <K`zan_800> Actually I don't think it likes me, hammers of hell to get it installed and working right, even the old one was trivial compared to this :-/.
Nov 29 00:36:28 <K`zan_800> Heh, not with me - endless problems with it :-(.
Nov 29 00:36:45 <K`zan_800> Gave up the old install because of all the USB problems.
Nov 29 00:36:54 <maddler> well... Murphy's laws! :D
Nov 29 00:36:57 <K`zan_800> But we are giving it another go just for maemo :).
Nov 29 00:37:13 <K`zan_800> OK, installed, keeping toes crossed...
Nov 29 00:37:20 <maddler> hehe
Nov 29 00:37:38 <K`zan_800> maddler: THANK YOU Sir!  Working.
Nov 29 00:37:46 <maddler> hehehehe
Nov 29 00:38:16 <maddler> look... you only need what to look at...
Nov 29 00:38:17 <K`zan_800> Why didn't it install the base stuff along with the other nfs stuff!??!?!  Don't care, just happy it is working and I can quit using scp :-).
Nov 29 00:38:41 <maddler> the Messiah will give you the right answers to you questions, but it's up to you which questions to ask
Nov 29 00:38:48 <maddler> LOL! I'm getting wyse!
Nov 29 00:38:53 <K`zan_800> :-)
Nov 29 00:38:59 <K`zan_800> I'm getting goofy :)
Nov 29 00:39:03 <maddler> hehe
Nov 29 00:39:10 <maddler> NFS instead of scp?!
Nov 29 00:39:14 <K`zan_800> Smoke!  Coffee!  Onward!!!!
Nov 29 00:39:19 <maddler> hope you are on a trusted environment! :D
Nov 29 00:39:43 <K`zan_800> Keep a local /nettmp for stuff I use all over - yes it is trusted :)
Nov 29 00:39:46 <maddler> I only use scp to move stuff around...
Nov 29 00:39:54 <K`zan_800> As much as is possible...
Nov 29 00:40:01 <maddler> hehe
Nov 29 00:40:20 <K`zan_800> That was what I was doing, installing my own .bashrc and various personal utils on the maemo dev box.
Nov 29 00:40:24 <K`zan_800> (any new box)
Nov 29 00:40:58 <alterego> What else would you use scp for?
Nov 29 00:41:29 <K`zan_800> As a wise friend once told me (back in the days when crackers were tracked down and put to a painful and slow death)"Never start networking - once you do you can never go back" :-)
Nov 29 00:41:43 <K`zan_800> He was right...
Nov 29 00:41:48 <maddler> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...
Nov 29 00:41:49 <maddler> :D
Nov 29 00:42:00 <K`zan_800> Shame we let crackers live now though...
Nov 29 00:42:16 <lopz> re
Nov 29 00:42:18 <K`zan_800> Yep, me too.
Nov 29 00:42:18 <maddler> hehe
Nov 29 00:42:32 <K`zan_800> It is a wild and wacky world out there :)
Nov 29 00:42:46 <maddler> I've see whide open networks with root/root credentials
Nov 29 00:42:48 <maddler> :)
Nov 29 00:42:52 <K`zan_800> God help me get sbox and the sdk right THIS time.
Nov 29 00:43:14 <K`zan_800> At least I had the good sense to snapshot the vm before doing anything this time :).
Nov 29 00:43:18 <maddler> Attack servers on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
Nov 29 00:43:19 <maddler> :D
Nov 29 00:43:31 <maddler> nice move, dude! :D
Nov 29 00:43:42 <K`zan_800> Get slowly smarter as I get older :)
Nov 29 00:45:13 <alterego> You can't be _that_ old. Old people don't use IRC :P
Nov 29 00:45:14 <K`zan_800> Will be glad when the fmradio applet is released, might make that a project for the newly installed sdk...
Nov 29 00:45:21 <K`zan_800> Yeah we do :)
Nov 29 00:45:26 <alterego> Old people _shouldn't_ use facebook ..
Nov 29 00:45:35 * K`zan_800 <<--- Official Old Fart(TM).
Nov 29 00:45:37 <maddler> alterego: well... I'm a 36 old teen! :D
Nov 29 00:45:45 <alterego> That's why I don't have an account ^_^
Nov 29 00:45:50 <K`zan_800> 57 here :-)
Nov 29 00:45:51 <alterego> 36? That's not bad.
Nov 29 00:45:56 <maddler> alterego: at all! :D
Nov 29 00:45:58 <alterego> <- 24 ...
Nov 29 00:46:09 <K`zan_800> My first computer was an IBM 1130 :)
Nov 29 00:46:17 <maddler> but I'm old enough to keep using IRSSI as my irc client! :D
Nov 29 00:46:20 <alterego> Mine was a BBC Electron.
Nov 29 00:46:23 <K`zan_800> Or 1401, we had both :)
Nov 29 00:46:23 <maddler> I even got married over IRC! :D
Nov 29 00:46:33 <alterego> pfft, hahaha
Nov 29 00:46:33 <zerojay> I met my wife on IRC.
Nov 29 00:46:37 <K`zan_800> Twisted folks, I am at home.
Nov 29 00:46:42 <maddler> I had an Apple ][e
Nov 29 00:46:43 <alterego> I met your wife on IRC too .. ^_^
Nov 29 00:46:50 <K`zan_800> I met my ex on Ward and Randy's BBS :-).
Nov 29 00:46:59 <K`zan_800> Ohhh, good one :)
Nov 29 00:47:02 <maddler> zerojay: same... she asked me about Negroponte's "Being digital"
Nov 29 00:47:02 <maddler> :D
Nov 29 00:47:10 <zerojay> Hah, be glad she doesn't decide to join the channel and give you boys a lashing. :)
Nov 29 00:47:20 <alterego> zerojay, please. It sounds kinky ;)
Nov 29 00:47:21 <K`zan_800> fidonet!
Nov 29 00:47:38 <K`zan_800> LOL, this ain't getting the dev stuff installed....
Nov 29 00:49:16 <maddler> :D
Nov 29 00:49:46 <maddler> I remember when I lived in southern Italy... some 20yrs ago...
Nov 29 00:49:48 <maddler> damn!
Nov 29 00:50:01 <maddler> and there were NO BBSs over there...
Nov 29 00:50:16 <mouta> Ciao folks
Nov 29 00:50:21 <maddler> and I had to make long distance calls in order to connect to some nice BBS
Nov 29 00:50:48 <maddler> 9600 bauds sounded a pretty good speed...
Nov 29 00:50:53 * czr suspends for today
Nov 29 00:50:59 <czr> alterego, good luck with the cart :-)
Nov 29 00:51:01 <maddler> czr: see you
Nov 29 00:51:08 <czr> later maddler & all
Nov 29 00:51:37 <alterego> czr, yeah. It wont take long :)
Nov 29 00:52:16 <czr> "it shouldn't take too long" ;-)
Nov 29 00:52:24 <czr> I've heard that one before.. somewhere.. :-)
Nov 29 00:52:27 <zerojay> famous last words.
Nov 29 00:52:29 <czr> night..
Nov 29 00:52:43 <alterego> g'night
Nov 29 00:54:31 <maddler> by the way... OS2008 is amazing!
Nov 29 00:54:38 <maddler> speed improved...
Nov 29 00:55:50 <maddler> beside both my SD cards are not working...
Nov 29 00:55:53 <maddler> strange...
Nov 29 00:57:10 <alterego> maddler, try restarting. A couple of people have reported that.
Nov 29 00:57:20 <alterego> maddler, they are fat right? Not ext?
Nov 29 00:57:49 <maddler> fat...
Nov 29 00:57:49 <_Monkey> fat is, like, just fine for media files
Nov 29 00:58:01 <maddler> they are being mounted readonly...
Nov 29 00:58:51 <maddler> can't understand if they both are gone... or N800 somehow can't correctly recognize them...
Nov 29 01:02:17 <skiburr> anybody using Claws Mail?
Nov 29 01:02:49 <doc|work> skiburr: have it installed, don't use it much as the pre-installed one is generally "good enough"
Nov 29 01:03:07 <skiburr> o ok
Nov 29 01:03:17 <doc|work> for my uses anyway
Nov 29 01:03:30 <skiburr> I can't seem to find an option on how to direct all my mail to my removable card
Nov 29 01:05:01 <maddler> hmmm... I don't think I can remember of such a function...
Nov 29 01:05:10 <doc|work> me neither :/
Nov 29 01:05:18 * doc|work looks
Nov 29 01:06:11 * zerojay watches and sees songs he's playing in the default Media Player showing up on last.fm. :)
Nov 29 01:06:54 * zerojay muhahahahaha
Nov 29 01:07:28 * zerojay takes over the world
Nov 29 01:07:57 <maddler> zerojay: :D
Nov 29 01:08:07 <doc|work> wait, it's that easy?!
Nov 29 01:08:11 <doc|work> can I have poland?
Nov 29 01:08:16 <doc|work> and Italy
Nov 29 01:08:26 * zerojay uninstalls Kagu. :D
Nov 29 01:08:39 <maddler> italy is mine! :D
Nov 29 01:08:45 <doc|work> no way, I was there first!
Nov 29 01:09:14 <doc|work> pizza and cute girls, if it wasn't full of Italians it'd rock. (I lived there for a year, nice people, stupid organisations)
Nov 29 01:21:48 <maddler> doc|work: organizations here are not stupid... are MAD!
Nov 29 01:21:57 <doc|work>  /whois maddler
Nov 29 01:22:01 <doc|work> ooops :)
Nov 29 01:22:15 <doc|work> thought so, an Italian :)
Nov 29 01:22:22 <doc|work> they are mad :/
Nov 29 01:22:27 <maddler> true...
Nov 29 01:22:39 <maddler> I've seen things... ;)
Nov 29 01:23:01 <maddler> I'm actually working as a security consultant for a big company...
Nov 29 01:23:06 <maddler> and trust me... you couldn't believe...
Nov 29 01:23:16 <maddler> and gov isn't any better... :(
Nov 29 01:23:16 <skiburr> xmame?
Nov 29 01:23:17 <_Monkey> well, xmame is ~3.5M
Nov 29 01:23:29 <skiburr> does it function well?
Nov 29 01:23:33 <doc|work> I'll never forget leaving the country and wanting to close my bank account. Deutsche bank wanted to charge me E50 just to close the account. My bad italian mixed with my not so illogical brain thought he must have misunderstood so they got someone who spoke english to say it and they did in fact want to charge me 50 eruo
Nov 29 01:24:02 <doc|work> so I said "I pay 120 euro a year and you want to charge me to *close* the account", the woman said "I'm sorry, this is Italy".
Nov 29 01:24:02 <zerojay> skiburr: The tablet's not really something that you'd be able to play much MAME on.
Nov 29 01:24:02 <maddler> doc|work: hehe... I know... I know...
Nov 29 01:24:09 <skiburr> lol
Nov 29 01:24:10 <zerojay> _Monkey forget xmame
Nov 29 01:24:10 <_Monkey> zerojay: I forgot xmame
Nov 29 01:24:15 <doc|work> and that phrase came to sum up my entire year there :)
Nov 29 01:24:16 <maddler> we have tons of beaurocracy everywhere...
Nov 29 01:24:24 <doc|work> "This is Italy!"
Nov 29 01:24:35 <maddler> sadly enough...
Nov 29 01:24:47 <doc|work> she was sympathetic, she knew it was stupid, but couldn't do anything
Nov 29 01:25:01 <maddler> hehe
Nov 29 01:25:07 <maddler> where have you been?
Nov 29 01:25:14 <doc|work> luckily I only had E30 in the account as I withdrew the cash the week before :)
Nov 29 01:25:18 <doc|work> Torino, you?
Nov 29 01:25:22 <maddler> Rome...
Nov 29 01:25:29 <doc|work> nice
Nov 29 01:25:53 <maddler> yep... great place to live...
Nov 29 01:25:55 <doc|work> been to milan and Aosta, really nice up there, never got to travel much though
Nov 29 01:26:10 <doc|work> must be way past your bedtime now :)
Nov 29 01:26:24 <maddler> 2.26... not too late yet... :)
Nov 29 01:26:36 <doc|work> hehe
Nov 29 01:26:46 <maddler> I was fixing something on eth0 server...
Nov 29 01:27:58 <doc|work> ok. home time
Nov 29 01:29:31 <maddler> ok... TTL here as well...
Nov 29 01:30:20 <skiburr> hum... I think claws mail dosen't have the option for storing to an external card
Nov 29 01:31:02 <nooknook> how is claws is it buggy? or pretty stable. i just got an 810 and the email app with it is very stable, though could use more features and keyboard shortcuts
Nov 29 01:31:43 <skiburr> can you store to an external card?
Nov 29 01:32:12 <nooknook> with the default email client? hmm i haven't noticed that capability
Nov 29 01:32:58 <skiburr> with claw
Nov 29 01:33:12 <skiburr> I have a 128mb card internal
Nov 29 01:33:42 <skiburr> I trying to direct all my email to my 4gb removable memory
Nov 29 01:33:46 <skiburr> I'm
Nov 29 01:40:37 <pumpkingod> I'm getting a few errors like: ./client: /lib/libm.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.0' not found (required by /usr/local/lib/libpbc.so.0)
Nov 29 01:41:01 <pumpkingod> I compiled libpbc in scratchbox
Nov 29 01:41:29 <pumpkingod> and the program works fine there, but on the n800 it barfs
Nov 29 01:41:46 <pumpkingod> :(
Nov 29 01:43:48 <pumpkingod> anyone have any ideas?
Nov 29 02:41:18 <K`zan_800> Just to make sure I understand this correctly the SDK itself is installed as the user (me) in question and NOT from within sbox?
Nov 29 02:41:55 <captlloyd>  /me can't remember
Nov 29 02:41:59 <captlloyd> oops
Nov 29 02:42:33 <K`zan_800> Not clear as to whether I log into sbox to install it or just install it from my normal shell.
Nov 29 02:43:24 <K`zan_800> The directions seem to indicate the latter but later looks like one should be in sbox...
Nov 29 02:43:36 * K`zan_800 is just SO cornfuzed...
Nov 29 02:44:45 <K`zan_800> Ah:
Nov 29 02:44:48 <K`zan_800> After you have downloaded the script to your local machine, run the
Nov 29 02:44:48 <K`zan_800>    script outside of the Scratchbox environment:
Nov 29 02:44:48 <K`zan_800>      $ sh maemo-sdk-install_4.0.sh
Nov 29 02:44:57 <K`zan_800> OK, whew :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Nov 29 02:59:56 2007