**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Feb 27 10:59:57 2008 Feb 27 11:00:19 dookdook: http://www.bretl.com/mpeghtml/MPEGindex.htm Feb 27 11:05:05 so the nokia is arm 1136? Feb 27 11:07:29 it's whatever an OMAP2420 is :) Feb 27 11:07:59 dookdook: yes, for n8x0 Feb 27 11:08:45 sorry, i can't seem to find the quick reference for the armv6 instruction set... Feb 27 11:09:10 dookdook: is a generic arm quick reference card Feb 27 11:09:21 I'm searching it Feb 27 11:10:39 think i found it. ARC0001_UAL.pdf? Feb 27 11:11:26 dookdook: http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.qrc0001l/index.html Feb 27 11:14:58 awsome, thanks...just to make sure, i'm lookin at the arm1136jf-s and arm1136j-s technical reference? Feb 27 11:15:46 Hmhm, thought OMAP was based on arm10 Feb 27 11:18:39 dookdook: the quick reference is good for me, the document is ARM QRC 0001L Feb 27 11:20:03 got that one too Feb 27 11:20:17 dookdook: wow, the code is that I told you is currently written Feb 27 11:20:24 dookdook: http://svn.mplayerhq.hu/ffmpeg/trunk/libavcodec/armv4l/simple_idct_armv6.S?view=markup Feb 27 11:20:52 dookdook: you could just merge it to mplayer Feb 27 11:21:18 Hi, anyone using spa3102 to do VOIP with the N800? Feb 27 11:22:03 Im trying to use the SIP beta of OS2008 and it just works for incoming calls to the N800. When I try to dial with the N800 it doesnt work Feb 27 11:22:24 other sip softphones are working so it has to be a problem of the N800 SIP stack Feb 27 11:24:45 dookdook: it's not exactly the same that I see on libmpeg2 but it's close to it Feb 27 11:25:00 ad-n770, what do you mean already written? meaning the optimizations you were talking about are already in ffmpeg or a non-optimized dct is encoded into ffmpeg (for armv6) and i could just use the optimizations from the mpeg2dec and put them into the ffmpeg source? Feb 27 11:25:57 dookdook: in the ffmpeg there's an idct written in armv6 that you can use as sample to write the libmpeg2 one Feb 27 11:26:34 dookdook: for the maemo mplayer Feb 27 11:27:48 dookdook: the ffmpeg version is optimized using the tricks that I said before, it's not exactly the same IDCT but it's closer to the one that is used in mplayer/libmpeg2 Feb 27 11:34:08 dookdook: if you go ahead on this optimization, I've some more ideas to speedup the mpeg2 decoding on the n8x0 Feb 27 11:34:38 ok, let me get my bearings... Feb 27 12:12:29 AD-N770: it also makes sense using ffmpeg lowres decoding for mpeg2 (DVD resolution videos) Feb 27 12:13:39 ssvb: is ffmpeg lowres decoding doing downscale at compressed domain? Feb 27 12:15:26 ssvb: like cacluate IDCT 8x8 on a whole macroblock using only part of it and using motion vectors halved Feb 27 12:15:32 AD-N770: yes, it uses 4x4 idct and tweaks for motion compensation to use it with lower resolution Feb 27 12:15:57 ssvb: nice, I would like have it on libmpeg2 :) Feb 27 12:16:11 AD-N770: why? Feb 27 12:16:12 ssvb: this was the idea that I had some time ago Feb 27 12:16:40 ssvb: and there's a gstreamer element that is written on top of libmpeg2 Feb 27 12:17:05 AD-N770: there should be also gstreamer element written on top of ffmpeg Feb 27 12:17:39 ssvb: yes, but the libmpeg2 is lighter Feb 27 12:17:42 libmpeg2 is GPL licensed, so that probably makes it harder to use in maemo stack with lots of binary components Feb 27 12:19:21 ssvb: I would like to use it to play streams from my dreambox sat receiver and libmpeg2 would be also enough Feb 27 12:20:26 AD-N770: that's interesting, I'm also researching this idea :) Feb 27 12:20:51 someone have already send packages to extras ? Feb 27 12:20:51 AD-N770: what network bandwidth is required for dreambox? Feb 27 12:22:05 AD-N770: I should have read the olpc page better , there is a link (http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/4002) to a bug that is most probably the cause of my problems redirecting stdout. Feb 27 12:22:30 who choose the "pearl" on maemo.org/downloads ? Feb 27 12:22:36 so, i still have to write stuff to a file for now (this is the workaround used on olpc too), but at least i do not have to launch mplayer anymore Feb 27 12:22:51 Khertan: i did Feb 27 12:23:07 your choice i s based on what ? Feb 27 12:23:10 ssvb: I think that dreambox just resend the TS coming from the sat so it will depend on the channel received and the bandwidth used by it Feb 27 12:23:13 i meant, i did push stuff on extras Feb 27 12:23:18 i did not took the pearl Feb 27 12:23:19 :) Feb 27 12:23:55 hum ... i ve some problem trying to send package with scp from the tablet ... my authentification is always refuse Feb 27 12:24:15 as i ve entered my ssh-rsa key i don't understand why ... Feb 27 12:24:16 oh, yeah, i forgot you are not using dput. Feb 27 12:24:22 yes :) Feb 27 12:24:27 Khertan: what about using a debian or ubuntu just for this purpose ? Feb 27 12:24:35 in a vmware or in a xen vm ? Feb 27 12:24:37 hi....can i install linux on 810 tablet ? i mean gentoo ? Feb 27 12:24:41 is this possible ? Feb 27 12:24:44 the purpose is to be able to upload from the tablet :) Feb 27 12:24:46 AD-N770: well, I would like to know the numbers, wlan driver will most likely kill all the performance Feb 27 12:24:48 melmoth: do you know if espeak output can be managed directly? you could use appsrc to inject the data to the gstreamer pipeline Feb 27 12:24:55 khertan: http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/introducing_niels_breet.html perhaps, though I wouldn't know the respective timelines Feb 27 12:25:41 AD-N770: i do not know what do you mean by 'managed directly', i had a look in espeak sources, but i dont get it (c++) Feb 27 12:25:53 AD-N770: You can also check this thread on ITT where lowres decoding is mentioned: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16986 Feb 27 12:25:53 i will have a look at what can be done with appsrc Feb 27 12:26:25 it's amazing how well dithering works at 225 dpi Feb 27 12:26:44 but i think it will not work (the problem in espeak seems to be it says teh wav file as a 0 size in the header when generated on the fly) Feb 27 12:27:18 hi ssvb. i have a new project running at 60 fps :) needs vsync eventually. maybe when it's ready for release you might want to look at it - the tearing is annoying :) Feb 27 12:27:21 ssvb: in my attempt with vlc and the 770 I was only being able to decode 3 fps at full res Feb 27 12:27:34 http://pupnik.de/pupnikNES.jpg Feb 27 12:28:12 ssvb: I would like try it again with gstreamer/libmpeg2 doing lowres decoding and using dspmp3sink for the audio Feb 27 12:28:16 pupnik_, that's hot! Feb 27 12:28:46 ssvb: and usign xv for rendering/colorspace conversion Feb 27 12:29:01 :) want to do the sound backend johnx ? Feb 27 12:29:18 ahaha...sorry, I'm not your man for that Feb 27 12:29:28 nobody is Feb 27 12:29:30 ssvb: that's why I would like to have an arm6 idct on libmpeg2 first Feb 27 12:29:48 AD-N770: dspmp3sink is bad for performance in OS2008, it reduces clock frequency from 400MHz to 330MHz Feb 27 12:30:00 ooh ty for that info Feb 27 12:30:50 pupnik_: what resolution is it using? Feb 27 12:30:50 of course if you need mp3, playing back with cpu will probably hurt more than dropping from 400 to 300 mhz Feb 27 12:30:50 ssvb: then also try using libmad :) Feb 27 12:31:12 ssvb approx 256x240 for the game window (pixel doubled) Feb 27 12:31:37 please advice me how can i purshase Nokia 810 via internet shop ? Feb 27 12:31:39 depends on clipping options Feb 27 12:31:45 where can i buy it ? Feb 27 12:32:17 in .ru? dunno Feb 27 12:32:37 take a vacation to new york :) Feb 27 12:38:10 AD-N770: mplayer is using libmad in OS2008 Feb 27 13:07:21 hello, is there a way to use the extern SD card with ext2 or 3? Feb 27 13:10:24 please tell me where can i buy N810 ? Feb 27 13:10:26 any idea ? Feb 27 13:10:44 nokia's online shop? Feb 27 13:12:40 Zero_Dogg> how much does it cost ? Feb 27 13:13:09 dunno, depends on country Feb 27 13:13:15 go look on nokia site Feb 27 13:13:30 Hi. I have a Nokia 770 and want to be able to play ogg files. I see an ogg package, but don't know which year to download or how to run it on the 770. Feb 27 13:15:24 ddavies: i think it depends wich os version are you using Feb 27 13:17:14 melmoth: how do I find the OS version? Feb 27 13:18:29 i guess settings/control pannel/about this product Feb 27 13:19:27 Zero_Dogg, lcuk > can i purchase N810 in a web-shop? somewhere in Europe ? in get it posted to me ? Feb 27 13:19:38 please advice me some shops ? Feb 27 13:19:58 the look for "ogg" in the matching download category: http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/ (or OS2007 or OS2006) Feb 27 13:20:19 ah: version is 3.2005.51-13 Feb 27 13:20:45 http://shop.nokia.de/nokia-de/default.aspx XATRIX there is where I got mine Feb 27 13:20:48 is it OS2006,OS2007 or OS2008 ? Feb 27 13:21:08 hmm, most probably OS2006 Feb 27 13:21:39 Yeah, I guess I'll try OS2006, then. Feb 27 13:23:12 pupnik> ohh....i don't know Deutch Feb 27 13:23:14 :( Feb 27 13:24:36 oh, but there doesn't seem to be an ogg for OS2006. I think I'll flash OS2008 and then install ogg. Does that sound reasonable? Feb 27 13:24:50 You should check with russian customs also XATRIX - it could be expensive to ship Feb 27 13:25:28 XATRIX: i don't know of a good answer. if you must pay customs/duties on it, then possibly ordering from the USA will be cheapest. Feb 27 13:27:52 well, thanks and bye for now! Feb 27 13:31:06 pupnik> i'm currently live in ukraine...and i can purchase N810 only for 550$ ! i guess it would have lower cost in other country... Feb 27 13:31:35 and shipping ? is it really expensive to ship with DHL delivery system ? Feb 27 13:32:25 you could try to buy one on ebay Feb 27 13:32:30 XATRIX: you could try finding someone you trust in the US, have it ship to him her [from amazon.com], and then to you Feb 27 13:32:30 XATRIX: buy N800, its cheaper :) Feb 27 13:32:39 N810 is abou $410 now iir Feb 27 13:32:43 *iirc Feb 27 13:33:00 it's about $550 in germany Feb 27 13:33:06 or more Feb 27 13:33:37 US $ is really cheap ;) Feb 27 13:34:59 europe has a lot of socialist government costs added to everything Feb 27 13:35:08 heheh Feb 27 13:35:11 * aquatix knows Feb 27 13:35:15 i'm from the netherlands Feb 27 13:35:23 it wasn't even available here till recently Feb 27 13:44:17 hm Feb 27 13:44:51 what can you say about http://www.superetrader.co.uk/nokia-n810-internet-tablet-p-2974.html Feb 27 13:45:05 ~276 $ Feb 27 13:45:50 £276.13 Feb 27 13:45:55 mind the pound sign Feb 27 13:46:02 that's pound sterling Feb 27 13:46:16 oh.. Feb 27 13:46:40 so, that's 1.5x that in euro's Feb 27 13:46:45 i think Feb 27 13:47:01 it's not good :( Feb 27 13:47:05 probably more like 2x Feb 27 13:47:21 1.32x Feb 27 13:47:31 2x would be US$. Feb 27 13:48:23 oh, sorry...yes, absolutely true. (i'm american) Feb 27 13:48:42 dookdook: yeah, US$ is taking a nose dive :/ Feb 27 13:48:43 Nokia N800 = 529 $ here Feb 27 13:49:01 it's goddamned very high price Feb 27 13:49:22 http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-N810-Portable-Internet-Tablet/dp/B000Y4AH3C/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1204120143&sr=8-1 Feb 27 13:49:33 391.10 US$ Feb 27 13:49:56 wow Feb 27 13:50:00 that is very nice Feb 27 13:50:22 but you'll need to get it through somewhere who lives in the US Feb 27 13:50:28 as they don't ship to europe i think Feb 27 13:50:52 :((( Feb 27 13:51:10 everywhere is it's own problem Feb 27 13:51:32 * aquatix got it that way though Feb 27 13:52:18 i have noone known in usa Feb 27 13:52:32 * aquatix only through IRC :P Feb 27 13:53:48 :) Feb 27 13:55:25 eh....it seems to me i would buy N770(used) "from hands"....200$ :((( Feb 27 13:56:20 XATRIX: better buy a n800 Feb 27 13:56:30 anyway, is it possible to install Gentoo Linux on 770 ? Feb 27 13:56:45 maybe, you'd be the first one to try it I think Feb 27 13:56:48 aquatix> i know...but it too expensive here in Ukraine :( Feb 27 13:57:03 wait a sec Feb 27 13:57:07 you should really find a way to get an N800 or N810 Feb 27 13:57:13 the 770 isn't worth it at $200 Feb 27 13:59:03 please take a look here ? Feb 27 13:59:08 http://www.linux.org.ru/gallery/2496397.png Feb 27 13:59:22 is it true ? :) Feb 27 13:59:54 that you can install KDE? yes Feb 27 14:00:10 Nokia 770 XFCE theme - Debian-GTK Feb 27 14:00:13 Why not? Feb 27 14:00:30 but there's it's own OS2007 Feb 27 14:00:42 how can i install other on it ? Feb 27 14:00:48 other WM Feb 27 14:01:20 you just find instructions on the Internet or learn to do it yourself Feb 27 14:01:27 XATRIX: OS200x is just Linux kernel and linux infrastructure. Install whatever you like. Feb 27 14:01:33 * aquatix rather likes Hildon and such though Feb 27 14:01:44 WOW :) Feb 27 14:01:52 even compiz ? :) Feb 27 14:02:01 no 3D acceleration... Feb 27 14:02:06 probably not enough memory Feb 27 14:02:18 aah :( Feb 27 14:02:29 * aquatix saw compiz on an Eee Feb 27 14:02:32 rather impressive Feb 27 14:02:33 someone told me that he was running Windows XP on 770 :) Feb 27 14:02:57 And goal of tablet is not exactly "burn the battery in 30mins by dancing bells'n'whistles" Feb 27 14:03:19 the person who told you it can run XP is probably joking Feb 27 14:04:03 take a look winxp Feb 27 14:04:06 morning all Feb 27 14:04:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1nS9kOtA7A Feb 27 14:04:26 maybe i understand something wrong.... Feb 27 14:04:56 I think that is rdesktop or vnc Feb 27 14:06:49 It's rdesktop. Feb 27 14:07:51 are you sure ? Feb 27 14:08:10 Absolutely. Windows do not run on ARM CPU. Feb 27 14:08:22 so...i can youse rdesktop soft on my future 770 ? :)))) Feb 27 14:08:30 THATS GREAT! Feb 27 14:08:53 rdesktop can just *connect* to a computer running windows, and display the windows desktop on the 770 Feb 27 14:09:14 XATRIX, you should definitely try to get an N800 instead of a 770 Feb 27 14:09:23 make some friends in the US or UK :) Feb 27 14:09:42 of course, neither the 770 or the n800 will never ever run xp Feb 27 14:10:36 johnx> why do you thing it would be much better to get N800 instead of 770 ? what are the main differences ? Feb 27 14:11:05 XATRIX: it's supported? Feb 27 14:11:21 supported what ? Feb 27 14:11:46 it has twice as much RAM, it's CPU is about 1.5x as fast, and Nokia (and other people) still release new software for it Feb 27 14:11:49 sorry for my english...i'm not native Feb 27 14:12:14 supported = Nokia still release software updates Feb 27 14:12:32 johnx> so...software that designed for 800 wouldn't run on 770 ? Feb 27 14:12:52 XATRIX: indeed Feb 27 14:13:11 johnx> what software updates? if it uses linux ,(not own nokia os) Feb 27 14:13:26 it doesn't matter if you buy the n800 or the n810, but the n770 is a lot slower, and nokia does not make updates for it anymore Feb 27 14:13:37 the kernel is Linux, but Nokia releases a lot of custom software for it Feb 27 14:13:59 gah, using vi commands on ITT forum posts Feb 27 14:14:07 pupnik: :) Feb 27 14:14:30 n770 basically was a prototype i guess :) Feb 27 14:14:59 but if i can install almost all linux apps.....it wouldn't be need to use nokia update at all....would it ? Feb 27 14:15:00 i love my 770. it's a tank. Feb 27 14:15:07 that's true Feb 27 14:15:30 XATRIX: erm, well, you can't just install a linux app Feb 27 14:15:39 it has to be adapted for maemo Feb 27 14:15:40 you don't need to, but there is a lot of nice Nokia software Feb 27 14:16:12 XATRIX, it can require a lot of knowledge about Linux and quite a bit of effort to make just any Linux program run Feb 27 14:16:18 for example i can't use midnight commander from the sources ? Feb 27 14:16:35 and more importantly, lot of nice non-Nokia software that is no longer maintained for OS2006, unless you want to do EVERYTHING yourself, it's lot easier to be using something most other packagers still work on. Feb 27 14:16:36 mc would be possible i guess Feb 27 14:16:47 you would have to compile it yourself if no one else has released a version compiled for the Nokia tablet Feb 27 14:17:15 Nokia-N800-50-2:~# apt-cache search midnight Feb 27 14:17:15 N800 is a LOT faster than the 770. Feb 27 14:17:15 mc - midnight commander - a powerful file manager Feb 27 14:17:21 and cross-compiling (compiling for the tablet, on a desktop computer) is a lot harder than a regular compile Feb 27 14:17:30 GeneralAntilles: you mean 770 is EVEN MORE SLOW?! :) Feb 27 14:17:46 johnx: I wouldn't say so Feb 27 14:17:46 so...i know that gentoo-linux kernel supports ARM arch.....so i possibly can run it on 770 ? and mannually compile soft for it ? Feb 27 14:17:51 pupnik: i love my 770 too, it's more handy than n800 in my opinion. and they both are order of magnitude slower than desktop PCs :) Feb 27 14:18:08 * aquatix loves his n810 Feb 27 14:18:10 BTobotras> wow :) Feb 27 14:18:17 and his bluetooth iGo keyboard Feb 27 14:18:45 ssvb and 770 can now do NES emulation at 60 fps :) Feb 27 14:18:46 XATRIX, the bluetooth and wifi drivers are closed source. Feb 27 14:18:50 GeneralAntilles> i know...but i have no money for it in ukraine.....it costs here 550$ Feb 27 14:19:17 XATRIX, the N800 and N810 are two different things Feb 27 14:19:34 the N810 is still $400+ in the US, and the N800 is $200 in the US Feb 27 14:19:38 GeneralAntilles> emm...there's a soft called "ndiswrapper" i'm using it with my lappy, it can run win drivers on linux box Feb 27 14:20:02 XATRIX, there *are* no windows drivers for the wireless chip in the N800 Feb 27 14:20:17 johnx: n810 is 391 at amazon.com :) Feb 27 14:20:22 johnx> in ukraine you can only find N770 USED for 200$ :) Feb 27 14:20:23 XATRIX & johnx: and there is no ARM windows... Feb 27 14:20:32 and the n810 is quite a bit smaller than the n800 Feb 27 14:20:39 and i like the keyboard and gps Feb 27 14:20:40 onion, thanks for clearing that up :P Feb 27 14:20:52 what wifi chip nokia uses ? Feb 27 14:21:08 a custom one from connexant Feb 27 14:21:25 I think it's called the cx3110x Feb 27 14:21:27 could you give me a full name of it ? Feb 27 14:21:35 but it doesn't matter because ndiswrapper won't work... Feb 27 14:22:05 anyways, all it means is you're stuck with Nokia's kernel, you can still use a distribution, but it will take sooo long to compile all the software you need Feb 27 14:22:27 and you couldn't even find a memory card big enough to hold the source code you need Feb 27 14:22:59 XATRIX, make a friend in the US, get them to buy you an N800 for $200 and send it to you, or find an ebay seller with international shipping Feb 27 14:23:21 hm....i heard that gentoo linux could be in 6MB or les Feb 27 14:23:24 *les Feb 27 14:23:29 XATRIX: 770 does not support memory cards above 2GB, and 64MB RAM is a bit too small for native compilation (gentoo is about native compilation, right?) Feb 27 14:23:30 but it takes space to compile Feb 27 14:23:41 ebay is expensive btw Feb 27 14:24:03 aquatix, any suggestions for where he can buy it and get it shipped to the Ukraine? Feb 27 14:24:10 johnx: nfs Feb 27 14:24:51 Conexant Products Feb 27 14:24:51 CX53121 — Single-Chip 802.11a/b/g with SPI Interface. Feb 27 14:24:51 In this article, they say Conexant Systems supports Linux. Feb 27 14:25:11 onion> nfs ? Feb 27 14:25:15 that's not the right chipset... Feb 27 14:25:30 and conexant does support Linux with a closed source driver Feb 27 14:25:53 XATRIX: build on a nfs mount Feb 27 14:25:57 johnx: well, through a `friend' in the US, ordering it at amazon.com Feb 27 14:26:06 easiest way i think Feb 27 14:26:10 * aquatix did it that way Feb 27 14:26:12 * johnx agrees Feb 27 14:26:50 XATRIX: you can find wlan driver here: https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x Feb 27 14:26:57 or perhaps using an AoE "disk", might be faster(?) Feb 27 14:27:13 XATRIX: open source part of it at least Feb 27 14:27:29 i'm a little confused how to use this scratchbox and sdk environment. i've downloaded scratchbox, xephyr and the sdk. i run scratchbox, and it gives me a prompt CHINOOK_ARMEL, whereas in the tutorials its all x86...whats going on? Feb 27 14:27:35 ok...i'll try to make some friend in us Feb 27 14:27:55 but if i failed....i have to buy 770... Feb 27 14:28:04 i have no other choise Feb 27 14:28:16 try *really hard* to get an N800 or N810 Feb 27 14:28:44 XATRIX: also beware of customs and other formalities, which take lots of time and money (at least here in Belarus) Feb 27 14:28:47 anyway my first car was BMW 323i 1981 :))) Feb 27 14:29:05 ah yes, let the US guy send it to you as gift :) Feb 27 14:29:27 :) Feb 27 14:29:40 gift could be also charged Feb 27 14:29:47 I had a 81 323i too. Loved it. Feb 27 14:29:48 ssvb> i was a customs officer last year :)) Feb 27 14:29:50 true, but it's slightly less likely Feb 27 14:29:51 if the custom thinks it's to valuable Feb 27 14:29:57 s/to/too Feb 27 14:30:17 ynezz: don't put the contents explicitely on the box ;) Feb 27 14:30:32 I didn't "Consumer electronic $60" Feb 27 14:30:33 :) Feb 27 14:30:43 XATRIX: where are you located? Feb 27 14:30:44 paid nothing just Amazon Feb 27 14:31:02 onion> Ukraine/Crimea/Yalta Feb 27 14:31:25 Black see Feb 27 14:31:32 *sea Feb 27 14:32:31 there's no forwarding service available in Ukraine? Feb 27 14:32:47 I've used one forwarding company to send my N810 from US to Czechia Feb 27 14:32:48 XATRIX: 770 may be a good choice, but only if you can compile software for it yourself Feb 27 14:33:05 XATRIX: but WSOD is another factor to consider... Feb 27 14:33:42 WSOD ? Feb 27 14:34:13 it's a hardware problems with some 770s called the "white screen of death" Feb 27 14:34:22 ohhh Feb 27 14:34:24 XATRIX: google "Nokia 770 WSOD" Feb 27 14:34:27 get used one and WSOD is a non-issue, besides, 800 had display problems too, even if they weren't quite that serious. Feb 27 14:34:46 Juhaz, why is it a non-issue with a used 770? Feb 27 14:35:39 because it would've happened already if it were about to. Feb 27 14:36:12 i've seen several wsod's (display controller went all goofy) and after a battery pullout it recovered Feb 27 14:36:25 n800 has FM tuner right? and 770 has no one ? Feb 27 14:36:33 yes Feb 27 14:36:45 I had my 770 go bootlooping if the battery goes dead.. and then it's reflashing time Feb 27 14:36:50 pupnik, well there are software causes and hardware causes... Feb 27 14:36:50 * aquatix is gone Feb 27 14:37:40 onion, you should've turned off the watchdog instead. Feb 27 14:37:43 johnx|zaurus: well this was clearly a controller problem, not software drawing goofy pixels. what the root cause was, i don't know. Feb 27 14:37:48 GeneralAntilles: does not help Feb 27 14:38:01 pupnik, scary Feb 27 14:38:13 GeneralAntilles: as it won't even boot up to charge mode Feb 27 14:38:59 though I've had my zaurus go whitescreen from high battery draw from a wifi cf card Feb 27 14:39:56 anyways Feb 27 14:40:10 good night all Feb 27 14:40:13 * johnx|zaurus sleeps Feb 27 14:41:16 anyway i could listen to the radio via 3G network :) Feb 27 14:41:43 XATRIX: expansys is pretty cheap, they might ship to you(?) Feb 27 14:42:38 here it's as twice as the price of it in US Feb 27 14:43:24 onion> who can ship to me it ? Feb 27 14:44:14 XATRIX: expansys Feb 27 14:45:31 emm....have you a www link on em ? Feb 27 14:45:45 expansys.com Feb 27 14:47:32 hello Feb 27 14:54:23 * canyouscore is away: I'm busy Feb 27 15:03:00 How do I set where to download maps to in maemo mapper? Feb 27 15:03:33 i usually start do downlad at a really high zoom Feb 27 15:03:38 then go whereever i want Feb 27 15:03:53 (or use the ste location to gps fetaure you there is one) Feb 27 15:03:55 I ment Feb 27 15:04:04 Where to store the maps Feb 27 15:04:15 like the SD card. Feb 27 15:04:36 map/manage maps ? Feb 27 15:04:44 nay Feb 27 15:04:44 Navi_: Menu> Maps > Manage repositories Feb 27 15:04:56 map/manage repository Feb 27 15:04:59 thank you Feb 27 15:05:01 and then I think it puts the images in the same place it puts the db file Feb 27 15:05:08 so, change "Cache DB" option Feb 27 15:05:47 segfaulted >_> Feb 27 15:07:08 had a corrupted db in there, all good now Feb 27 15:07:34 bah, moi j ai eu mon dernier contact avec l ulp en 95. Feb 27 15:07:36 oups Feb 27 15:27:46 lol melmoth Feb 27 15:30:53 i m always confusing channel with irssi Feb 27 15:45:32 melmoth, use xchat Feb 27 15:45:46 tch Feb 27 15:46:13 melmoth: stay with irssi, but look at the name of the buffer you're typing in :P Feb 27 15:46:47 mmmm Feb 27 15:49:20 i ll stay with irssi, the whole point of it is to be able to have my irc client in a screen session, on a machine always up. Feb 27 15:49:42 so i can connect to it from my laptop, or the tablet if'i m far away from my own desktop. Feb 27 15:50:53 melmoth, so you have to continue the same session Feb 27 15:50:55 /load proxy ftw Feb 27 15:51:32 screen is easier, plus it works for other stuff than irc. Feb 27 15:51:46 just "screen -r" Feb 27 15:51:46 it wors for...everything actually Feb 27 15:51:51 rx Feb 27 15:56:02 woohoo goodbye for loop hello memcpy Feb 27 15:56:16 Doesn't gcc translate those automatically? Feb 27 15:56:27 oh :/ Feb 27 15:56:47 well I can profile it Feb 27 15:57:01 I usually just dump asm and inspect it. Feb 27 15:57:23 If you really want to know what your compiler is doing. Feb 27 16:00:36 * pupnik is jealous Feb 27 16:04:38 If you compile with -S -g, the output is quite readable, even if you don't have much asm experience. Feb 27 16:05:22 does -S -g give me a .S file i can tweak and then compile? Feb 27 16:05:29 .s file, yes. Feb 27 16:05:50 Well, it'll give you whatever you put after -o, but you should put something that ends in .s Feb 27 16:06:19 Alterego: are you able to send me either an svndump or even a tarball of the ruby-maemo C code, please? I'd love to start understanding it. Feb 27 16:10:49 Spakman_, I would but my internet connection at home is screwy and I'm in a cafe on my tablet now :) Feb 27 16:11:14 I'll get you it this weekend. Feb 27 16:11:25 pupnik: I wouldn't tweak .S file, it would become unmaintainable very soon, treat it as just an intermediate temporary file (which it actually is) Feb 27 16:12:39 as for the loop, everything depends on its size Feb 27 16:13:45 Alterego: OK, thanks a lot. Should I just pester you on IRC about it? Feb 27 16:16:22 Most of the things I find are higher level. For e.g. i have a buffer copy consuming 4% of CPU, but in principle i am copying once when I don't need to. So instead of tweaking that i should eliminate it. Feb 27 16:17:39 Spakman_ probably best, I've got a heavy rest of the week. So best wait 'til Saturday and I'll get maemo.rubyx.co.uk back up. Feb 27 16:18:08 But to do that i will need to bypass an sdl call Feb 27 16:20:03 Alterego: okay-dokey, good luck with it all. Feb 27 16:20:38 http://pastebin.ca/920766 ssvb derf in case you're curious, there's the opreport Feb 27 16:21:06 first column is cpu, second cache misses Feb 27 16:23:45 so looks like this RefreshLine_normal needs to be optimized Feb 27 16:23:45 probably making good use of cache prefetch instructions Feb 27 16:23:47 the cpu core is asm, so i think because it has no symbols it gets lumped in with no-vmlinux Feb 27 16:23:55 third line is the NES PPU (pixel processing unit) which is written in C Feb 27 16:25:04 well i can't do that, that's the optimized gp2x version Feb 27 16:25:36 eventually i'll look into what mplayer is doing Feb 27 16:25:50 but if you ever find time to play with newvox, i could learn from that more easily Feb 27 16:26:00 same situation: 8-bit sdl Feb 27 16:27:26 pupnik: 8-bit to 16-bit conversion can be optimized, at least on 770 it was important to write 32-bit values to the output buffer instead of a pair of 16-bit values Feb 27 16:31:26 pupnik: you should consider installing sdl debug symbols / non stripped version :) Feb 27 16:31:40 ok Feb 27 16:33:11 it's much more verbose with it (to see the sdl bottlnecks.. for pingus e.g. it revealed it uses most of the time in converting/blitting 8bpp->16bpp ) Feb 27 16:36:34 jott is there anything you want to share re: pingus? Feb 27 16:37:25 jott: well, if improving this 8bpp->16bpp can help pingus, we can give it a try Feb 27 16:39:04 hmm yeah.. i thought about natively using 12 or 16bpp.. but pingus relies on the 8bpp for alpha mask information so this approach is a bit more complicated.. :) Feb 27 16:39:22 but optimizing sdl core stuff would really be nice.. Feb 27 16:39:39 as all sdl applications would potentially benefit Feb 27 16:40:19 (i think pinugs even went 8bpp->32bpp->16bpp afair ;-) Feb 27 16:40:52 jott: did you try pingus on a 770? Feb 27 16:41:04 no just on my n810.. Feb 27 16:41:27 it's quite playable with music disabled.. Feb 27 16:41:41 jott: optimizing sdl (replacing it on the device) can be PITA Feb 27 16:41:42 and vfp brought a huge boost.. Feb 27 16:42:15 jott: but it should be possible to have an optimized version that links statically with the projects that need it Feb 27 16:42:30 yeah or just offer it as a replacement.. Feb 27 16:42:51 i'm already using jott's hacked sdl for dosbox Feb 27 16:43:03 but only if device=n810 Feb 27 16:44:14 ah removing throttle gives 96-105 fps. forgot that was in there :) Feb 27 16:44:37 unfortunately those 8 bpp -> n bpp conversions can't be optimized *that* much.. Feb 27 16:44:40 bye folks Feb 27 16:44:45 cu Spakman_ Feb 27 16:45:13 pupnik, jott: if you remind me it when I get home, I can try to make assembly optimized 8bpp->16bpp conversion patch for SDL, it should be quite easy Feb 27 16:45:23 yeah i suppose Feb 27 16:45:47 basically just a table lookup :) Feb 27 16:45:57 jott: by the way, is SDL compiled in thumb mode on the device? Feb 27 16:46:17 hmm good question.. mine is not :) Feb 27 16:47:48 jott: not quite that (I suspect SDL already does table lookup), but it needs to be unrolled so that there are no load latencies, also data should be combined and written into memory using STM instruction, experimenting with PLD (cache prefetch) may also help Feb 27 16:49:09 how much improvement do you expect? (sdl currently uses just a simple while loop with fixed loopup table afair) Feb 27 16:49:30 overall, I suspect that the performance can be at least doubled over C version Feb 27 16:49:42 hmm this would be really nice Feb 27 16:51:59 hey Feb 27 16:52:12 I found a quite nice bitmap font that I want to use on my n770 (hacker edition). Feb 27 16:52:50 i can get it in .fon (windows), .pcf.gz, .pcf.Z, and .bdf formats. Feb 27 16:52:56 is there any way I can use it on my Nokia? Feb 27 16:53:20 hi jpt9 beats me Feb 27 16:54:34 hi Feb 27 16:54:35 exist kismet for nokia 770 hacker edition? Feb 27 16:55:29 ssvb: http://pastebin.ca/920801 something like this could really be optimized with arm asm.. Feb 27 16:55:55 tripolo: yes, the one binary that's out there should work on all itos verions Feb 27 16:56:20 but some have much more potential i think.. Feb 27 16:56:25 where is the repository? Feb 27 16:56:58 is the kismet of OS 2006? Feb 27 16:58:00 jpt9: probably not. those are bitmap formats. everything nowadays uses truetype or opentype fonts (vector/scalable) Feb 27 16:58:18 i just found a bdf2ttf utility... Feb 27 16:58:26 except it needs some file that specifies conversion data.. Feb 27 16:58:31 and all the documentation is in japanese. Feb 27 16:58:39 jott: most likely yes, though DISEMBLE_RGB and ASSEMBLE_RGBA macros are the most interesting here Feb 27 16:59:16 ssvb: sure but those are most likely slow when done seperately ;) Feb 27 17:00:04 yiek! Feb 27 17:00:30 http://pastebin.ca/920811 nuts :P Feb 27 17:00:39 this can be like 10 times as fast ;) Feb 27 17:00:59 (a switch per pixel?) Feb 27 17:01:10 jott: LOL Feb 27 17:01:34 switch should be moved outside of all loops Feb 27 17:01:42 so true Feb 27 17:01:44 is it SDL code? Feb 27 17:01:45 why would bpp change from pixel-to-pixel? Feb 27 17:02:07 ssvb: yeah.. SDL_blit.[c|h] Feb 27 17:02:27 pupnik: it makes the code maintainable but not fast ;) Feb 27 17:02:29 jott: is it really used? Feb 27 17:02:51 SDL_BlitSurface(BlitBuf,&srect,screen,&drect) this is used a lot Feb 27 17:02:55 maybe that's just some reference implelemtation and some better code is used in real programs? Feb 27 17:02:59 well given that pingus spend ~30% in blitNtoN i would assume yes ;) Feb 27 17:05:01 while I'm dreaming... two pages @ 320x240 and a vsync timed pageflip would be nice Feb 27 17:05:03 it has to be verified (that exaclty this code is used) Feb 27 17:05:16 but it does not seem that unlikely.. Feb 27 17:09:02 Is 7mbit normal speed for n800's wifi? I'd expect more Feb 27 17:09:17 pupnik: if an upgraded SDL lib project takes off the ground, that's not so unrealistic :) Feb 27 17:09:31 Yes, BTobotras. Feb 27 17:09:47 GeneralAntilles: ok Feb 27 17:10:18 BTobotras: it is normal with the current wlan driver, but the hardware is much more capable Feb 27 17:10:44 ssvb: I see Feb 27 17:11:03 * BTobotras uses n800 as a SDHC flash reader, having lost his camera's cable :) Feb 27 17:11:10 BTobotras: I got 1.3MB/s wifi download speed on 770 (with a patched driver and downloading file to /dev/null) Feb 27 17:13:30 BTobotras: well, actually 7mbit is not so bad, how much is it in megabytes per second? are you benchmarking storing data to the flash card? Feb 27 17:13:48 ~800KB/sec Feb 27 17:13:53 0.25Mbits/s en ftp Feb 27 17:14:06 hi, anyone knows how to parse the result of adapter.getRemoteServiceRecord? I have to extract the obex channel thanks Feb 27 17:14:11 600-800KB/sec is what I get with SCP. Feb 27 17:14:18 ssvb: no, reading from flash, xfering via wifi by scp and storing on the hosts' hdd Feb 27 17:14:23 GeneralAntilles: exactly Feb 27 17:14:42 in python Feb 27 17:15:04 BTobotras: what cipher are you using for ssh? Feb 27 17:17:52 ssvb: aes128-cbc IIRC Feb 27 17:21:27 BTobotras: trying other ciphers such as blowfish can probably help to improve scp performance Feb 27 17:22:00 ssvb: yes, I got your point :) Feb 27 17:48:23 Is there a german maemo channel ? Feb 27 17:51:47 denis`: this one. Just keep speaking english :) Feb 27 17:51:57 ah well ok :) Feb 27 17:52:18 Just wanted to ask if there is a offline store that has the N810 in Germany Feb 27 17:52:41 Any nokia stores in Germany? Feb 27 17:52:55 They should carry some Feb 27 17:54:26 Hmm yeah thats what I thought as well Feb 27 17:54:34 I've seen the n810 in several big consumer electronic stores. Feb 27 17:54:36 the Nokia store in Darmstadt had no device :/ Feb 27 17:54:43 hmm in which ? Feb 27 17:54:52 I was at Saturn, Media Markt Feb 27 17:55:05 they told me that they won't get it Feb 27 17:55:06 Did you ask them about it? Feb 27 17:55:08 yeah Feb 27 17:55:10 sure Feb 27 17:56:00 It's always the same when I try to get something offline :) Feb 27 17:56:21 no one has it Feb 27 17:56:39 pH5: yes, those. strange, here in berlin some of them carry the n810 in their mobile phone/pda section. Feb 27 17:56:44 that's because you have refined tastes and the mass market does not Feb 27 17:56:46 http://shop.nokia.de/nokia-de/product.aspx?sku=3752591&culture=de-DE Feb 27 17:57:14 Yeah ok BTobotras then I can buy it at Amazon as well :) Feb 27 17:57:16 * pH5 realizes he's talking to himself Feb 27 17:57:22 s/pH5/denis`/ Feb 27 17:57:22 pH5 meant: denis`: yes, those. strange, here in berlin some of them carry the n810 in their mobile phone/pda section. Feb 27 17:57:23 denis`: prolly :) Feb 27 17:57:35 ;) Feb 27 17:57:58 But ok it was the last time trying to get something offline :D Feb 27 18:00:05 pH5, getting a little crazy there, eh? Feb 27 18:00:46 pH5: who knows Feb 27 18:16:37 solmumaha: is http://en.pastebin.ca/920903 all that is needed to get 800x480 ja2 straciatella? Feb 27 18:18:49 sarass, c est haut chez ben ! Feb 27 18:21:58 pH5: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=943&stc=1&d=1202603645 Feb 27 18:23:34 i've already done that, latest and demo are 800x480 except for the menus Feb 27 18:24:29 * Navi wonders where Tigrux disappeared to Feb 27 18:27:55 solmumaha: thanks, I know. I'm just trying to reproduce. did you modify anything else? Feb 27 18:29:19 well Tron added support for right click with the menu button (WITH_MAEMO) so i only changed the i.m.p code to blank Feb 27 18:29:58 he also gave me a patch to create a demo, must be in svn now too Feb 27 18:30:05 great, which key is mapped to the alt key? Feb 27 18:32:01 What is the best way to start developing sth for Maemo with Python and for the gui evas (edje theming) ? Feb 27 18:32:28 pH5: are you going to hack on it? Feb 27 18:33:19 you could bind the fullscreen and +- to some actions like next/previous villain and maybe pause Feb 27 18:34:36 other keys are used by the game already with 770 and n800 Feb 27 18:41:42 solmumaha: next villain is already the enter key. we could misuse fullscreen for the map screen on n770/n800. Feb 27 18:42:14 I wonder if it'd be feasible to have the fullscreen key switch the game between fullscreen and windowed mode :) Feb 27 18:42:45 wow ph5, thats remarkable, how did you come up with that idea? ;) Feb 27 18:42:52 (to look at the time for example, ja2 is a time killer) Feb 27 18:43:46 lcuk: :) Feb 27 18:43:56 you could try to prevent the home key from working ;) Feb 27 18:44:16 yes, or make the app appear in the task list. Feb 27 18:44:32 if you are gonna go that far, could someone remap the power button ;) Feb 27 18:45:01 that would be better, would make the fullscreen toggle kinda useless then Feb 27 19:03:29 Ew, rsync segfaults. Feb 27 19:06:28 You gave up your right to complain. :P Feb 27 19:06:38 Not yet! Feb 27 19:16:29 * lcuk curses Feb 27 19:20:46 solmumaha: the StartupWMClass/SDL_VIDEO_X11_WMCLASS trick from http://maemo.org/community/wiki/gamedevelopment/ works for ja2, too. Feb 27 19:21:39 is there an irc client for os'08? Feb 27 19:22:02 <_berto_> inteliwasp: I think that there's xchat Feb 27 19:22:14 inteliwasp: telepathy-idle, xchat, pidgin, irssi Feb 27 19:22:42 are they in the maemo repos? Feb 27 19:23:08 xchat is still beta Feb 27 19:23:15 http://zeus.rm-fr.net/~skyhusker/xchat-chinook-betas/ Feb 27 19:23:23 mmmm beta... Feb 27 19:25:04 Beta still works Feb 27 19:25:30 oh yea, how can i make the web browser use the d Feb 27 19:26:11 oops i ment d pad scroll instead of links? Feb 27 19:26:31 there's a thread about it on ITT Feb 27 19:29:05 did they solve it?(i mean shuld i look it up?) Feb 27 19:32:26 pH5: thanks, didn't know about that Feb 27 19:34:20 inteliwasp, timeless put together a deb to do it for you. Feb 27 19:34:29 Should be linked on the WONTFIX dpad bug on bugzilla. Feb 27 19:34:53 cool Feb 27 19:35:21 * inteliwasp loves his new n800 :) Feb 27 19:36:37 now all i need is to find netstumbler ans load all my 'nix programs Feb 27 19:41:36 hrm, repository.* down? Feb 27 20:40:18 Why does the battery last longer on the n810 if it ships with a 1500 mAh battery as the n800 does, especially when the processor runs faster? I have read that the battery is 'smarter'.. is that the only reason? Feb 27 20:40:39 It's the same processor. Feb 27 20:40:51 I've never actually seen anybody do a real side-by-side to confirm that claim. Feb 27 20:40:55 same processor, but in n800 by default it's stepped down Feb 27 20:40:59 so it runs faster in the n810 Feb 27 20:41:01 Wrong. Feb 27 20:41:09 It's the same processor, running at the same speed. Feb 27 20:41:31 (well, they both step between 165 and 400MHz) Feb 27 20:41:39 My understanding is different Feb 27 20:41:43 out of the box, with os2007 Feb 27 20:41:49 the 800 runs at a reduced speed Feb 27 20:41:55 Apples to Oranges Feb 27 20:42:01 OS2008 on both devices, both devices run the same speed Feb 27 20:42:02 out of the box compared to out of the box Feb 27 20:42:09 N810 with OS2007 would run at 330MHz Feb 27 20:42:20 Out of the box to out of the box is apples to oranges. Feb 27 20:42:36 OS2008 steps Feb 27 20:42:38 from a product perpspetive, no Feb 27 20:42:40 OS2007 doesn't Feb 27 20:42:44 out of the box is the only fair comparison Feb 27 20:42:45 but anywa Feb 27 20:42:49 i don't want to debate that Feb 27 20:42:49 No, no it's not. Feb 27 20:42:54 yes but anyway Feb 27 20:42:58 out-of-the-box is a stupid comparison Feb 27 20:43:01 especially for these devices. Feb 27 20:43:04 no Feb 27 20:43:07 but anyway Feb 27 20:43:14 the firmware evolved... Feb 27 20:43:16 assuming they're running the same os Feb 27 20:43:23 the same devices now ships with different firmware Feb 27 20:43:23 at the same cpu speed Feb 27 20:43:34 so you could compare the *same* device and came do different conclusions Feb 27 20:43:46 goddamn internal memory card corruption :< Feb 27 20:43:52 if they have the same capacity of battery (1500 mAh) Feb 27 20:44:11 does formatting the internal card to ext2 solve anything? Feb 27 20:44:12 is the only advantage that the n810 has under those circumstances that the battery is 'smarter' Feb 27 20:44:25 or does the firmware difference you speak of also relate to the difference? Feb 27 20:44:33 The battery difference is purely a matter of size, as far as I'm aware. Feb 27 20:44:49 OS2008 steps the CPU between 165MHz and 400MHz Feb 27 20:44:49 well os2008 has a better powermanagement Feb 27 20:44:55 OS2007 is locked to 330MHz Feb 27 20:45:06 e.g. speed stepping as GeneralAntilles points out Feb 27 20:45:11 probably alot more optimization Feb 27 20:45:15 yeah as i'm aware of, that's not my question Feb 27 20:45:55 QWhere can I get easyroot? Feb 27 20:46:15 nitapps.com Feb 27 20:46:21 The battery is neither smart nor stupid, it's a battery. Feb 27 20:46:22 thank you Feb 27 20:46:28 stupid battery Feb 27 20:46:33 i put it in quotes for a reason Feb 27 20:46:37 The change was a form-factor-only change. Feb 27 20:47:05 non-sequitur Feb 27 20:47:14 GeneralAntilles: not entirely true Feb 27 20:47:45 but to large parts it was.. Feb 27 20:47:59 re the batteries, jott. Feb 27 20:48:49 * jott still does not get rghoshs point Feb 27 20:49:02 Help is at hand in breaking the code of silence. An increasing number of today's rechargeable batteries are made 'smart'. Equipped with a microchip, these batteries are able to communicate with the charger and user alike. Typical applications for 'smart' batteries are notebook computers and video cameras. Increasingly, these batteries are also used in biomedical devices and defense applications. http://batteryun Feb 27 20:49:17 so please dispense with the needless argument Feb 27 20:49:33 find doesnt work with for me ,with -size any sugestions Feb 27 20:49:38 i'm not looking for a pointless debate Feb 27 20:50:24 in a pointless debate i pic the stylus Feb 27 20:50:44 rghosh, I'm really not sure WHAT you're looking for. Feb 27 20:50:52 yeah apparently you aren't Feb 27 20:50:53 in a pointERless debate i would use a finger :p Feb 27 20:52:22 void *jottptr = NULL; Feb 27 20:52:42 hey this IS a pointer :p Feb 27 20:53:03 * jott slashes &Navi Feb 27 20:53:11 dont go wagging it at me the stylus is the onl way to,go Feb 27 20:54:29 rghosh: if you're trying to determine whether the n810's battery is "smart equipped" in that sense... I'm not positive, but i doubt it.... I would *hope* that nokia would make a big deal out of it (or at least mention it somewhere) if it was. Feb 27 20:54:56 http://www.smape.com/en/reviews/nokia/Nokia_N810-review.html is part of what provoked the question Feb 27 20:55:04 but it didn't have much detail Feb 27 20:55:23 I'm out Feb 27 21:12:30 something is using up my internal flash Feb 27 21:29:30 is it possible to install OS2008 on 770 ? Feb 27 21:29:54 OS2008HE, yes Feb 27 21:30:32 is there a fix for the sound problem yet? Feb 27 21:32:13 GeneralAntilles> and as i understand, i can install XFCE on OS2008 ? Feb 27 21:32:18 can't i ? Feb 27 21:32:23 Hello Feb 27 23:58:44 I was wondering if anyone can tell me how to turn off caret browsing in the browser Feb 28 00:14:50 Gah Feb 28 00:14:59 the N800 doesn't detect my finger most of the time Feb 28 00:15:11 so I get the stupid stylus board Feb 28 00:15:56 Also, after reflashing and restoring a backup without apps, I can't open the applet panel Feb 28 00:16:00 for choosing applets Feb 28 00:34:25 any hints on how to make a trasparent home plugin on OS2008? Feb 28 01:05:06 the N800 doesn't detect my finger most of the time, anyone know how to get it to detect my finger? Feb 28 01:05:13 for the finger board Feb 28 01:06:10 do you use your nail at all? that works for me (even w/ my nails clipped) Feb 28 01:06:24 No, not at all Feb 28 01:07:02 Any kernel experts here? Feb 28 01:07:48 Also, I can't open the dialog to enable/disable applets Feb 28 01:08:12 Suppose a rogue driver tries to access a restricted part of memory. Is Maemo good enough to deny access, and continue running, or does it kernel panic? Feb 28 01:09:33 my finger works on the n800 even if I don't use my nail Feb 28 01:10:07 but try flipping your hand palm facing up, and tap w/ your nails.. it'll probably work better for you navi Feb 28 01:10:51 unixSnob: drivers running in the kernel may access all kinds of restricted parts. Unless you have a memory protection unit or something similiar the rogue driver won't be stopped. Feb 28 01:11:30 What do you mean a "memory protection unit"? Feb 28 01:11:41 is that something that can be added to the kernel? Feb 28 01:12:26 unixSnob: that is a hardware part in some CPUs. Feb 28 01:12:59 interesting.. I'd like to know more about that Feb 28 01:13:03 (I actually don't know what facilities the ARM based CPUs in the nokia tablets have. Feb 28 01:13:24 it might be part of the MMU. Feb 28 01:13:29 Well, in terms of desktop PCs, is that available in some cpus? Feb 28 01:14:51 unixSnob: I can only tell you that in the blackfin CPU a protection unit is available (and - if enabled - tends to bite you) despite blackfin not having a MMU. Feb 28 01:14:58 I always thought linux was more reliable than Windows, because I get BSODs all the time, but almost never get kernel panics.. but folks are telling me it only appears that way because linux drivers are better. Feb 28 01:16:26 In fact someone over in #linux said linux would get kernel panics as often as Windows gets BSODs if it ran as many rogue drivers. Feb 28 01:16:57 unixSnob: that is true. It is quite easy to crash/hang the kernel with buggy drivers. Feb 28 01:17:39 unixSnob: the key part is, that nearly all linux drivers are free software and everybody can try to fix them if they behave problematic. Feb 28 01:18:10 I'm surprized OSs don't have a protective layer of some kind Feb 28 01:18:37 Seems like a kernel could simply deny access to bad requests Feb 28 01:19:11 unixSnob: if some taiwan company produces some random hardware and of course also has to ship a driver for win, they might hack on the driver to get something that works for them. But since they don't open up the source the only party able to fix the drivers are themselves. If they are working on the next product, the motivation to fix an "old" driver is pretty low. Feb 28 01:19:59 unixSnob: if I understood that correctly microkernels might have such an architecture. Feb 28 01:20:18 (Linux is not a microkernel) Feb 28 01:20:57 yeah, i've heard that a microkernel can actually be proven to be crash free. Feb 28 01:21:11 I suppose it has to be a very small feature poor type of OS Feb 28 01:21:28 unixSnob: that probably is a misconception. Feb 28 01:21:52 unixSnob: at one point there has been a huge (famous) flamewar on that topic between Tanenbaum and Torvalds. Feb 28 01:22:13 who's tanenbaum? Feb 28 01:22:22 unixSnob: google for him. Feb 28 01:24:19 Do linux and Windows both make use of the memory protection logic if the hardware offers it? Feb 28 01:24:52 ah, minix.. I recall reading about that.. part of where linux came from.. or inspired it Feb 28 01:25:44 unixSnob: I believe that you overestimate the importance of that memory protection logic thingie. Feb 28 01:25:53 s/logic/unit/ Feb 28 01:26:13 unixSnob: being able to access protected memory is the whole Point of kernel and/or drivers. Feb 28 01:26:20 Well, look at what a bsod/kernel panic does.. kills everything that's running fine. Feb 28 01:26:45 If that can be intercepted, and not bring the whole system down, seems like a big plus. Feb 28 01:27:20 ok, so the video driver b0rks. how do you carry on working? Feb 28 01:27:33 or the hard disk controller? Feb 28 01:27:42 Those are essential. Feb 28 01:27:45 unixSnob: Linux has non-fatal oopses. But if your system for some reason gets into an inconsistent state would you rather ignore that and risk corrupting data? Feb 28 01:28:17 However, I currently get a bsod if I simply insert a CD. I don't care if windows disables my CD drive so everything else can continue Feb 28 01:29:07 thats usually because windows tried to access data off the disk bus and oooh looksie something is corrupt in the ide driver Feb 28 01:29:11 I might.. I might like to be offered an option.. red pill or blue pill. Feb 28 01:29:31 unixSnob: BSODs is not something to take lightly. There is nothing that guarantees that this only affects the CD drive. Feb 28 01:29:55 Right, but it seems an OS could prevent non-essential rogue processes from crashing a whole system Feb 28 01:30:07 it could be the northbridge overheating or the memory is bad, the biggest thing i would say there is: check the hardware - i never see bsods or anything - i have stable hardware Feb 28 01:30:36 the software is doing its best to tell you theres a big problem Feb 28 01:30:37 unixSnob: if you are talking about user space processes then you are right and this already happens. A user space process accessing the wrong memory gets killed with a segfault. Feb 28 01:31:41 Yeah, I see that seg fault on things I'm working on (on linux). Feb 28 01:31:57 Does windows have the same protection from user space processes? Feb 28 01:32:06 but a CD drive relies on the IDE bus which in turn probably depends on the DMA engines which access the Memory. Which part do you want to disable when it turns out that somewhere in that pipeline something goes very wrong? Feb 28 01:32:37 unixSnob: current Windows'ses yes. If a user space application crashes it usually does not affect the other running processes. Feb 28 01:32:43 I would just want it to disable the CDROM driver Feb 28 01:33:13 unixSnob: so if the problem is actually in the IDE driver and it starts randomizing your data on the harddisk, this is fine with you? Feb 28 01:33:59 unixSnob, go into device manager and disable it then Feb 28 01:34:36 I would feel confident that it's the driver at fault, because it happens when a CD is inserted, and never when HDD activity is called for Feb 28 01:34:53 I can't open the applet selector :/ Feb 28 01:35:00 lcuk - I'm not given time to do that between inserting the CD, and getting the BSOD Feb 28 01:35:05 unixSnob: but that is your human intuition telling you this. The OS cannot know. Feb 28 01:36:27 hint: you can disable it right now *before* you put another cd in, or you know, you could use your head and not put cds in. i haven't asked but is it a specific cd you are putting in which makes it crash, or do other cds work? Feb 28 01:37:15 "Sony rootkit edition" Feb 28 01:37:22 It's when I start a NERO burn process, and insert a blank. Brand doesn't matter. Feb 28 01:37:31 And it doesn't happen every time, just half the time. Feb 28 01:37:57 Also, I've only seen it with NERO I think.. not with the HP provided app. Feb 28 01:38:18 But I know it can't be Nero, right, because that's in the user space. Feb 28 01:38:30 right, so now we are getting somewhere. its not the actual operating system thats doing this, its the interaction between neros funky none standardness and another none standard app and windows's own cd burning thing Feb 28 01:38:50 nero has some aspi driver scsi cover thing doesnt it Feb 28 01:38:56 oh, and I would suspect that nero installs custom drivers. Feb 28 01:39:21 anyway. /me heads for the bed now. Night all. Feb 28 01:39:22 So Nero is operating outside of the user space? Feb 28 01:39:40 night Feb 28 01:39:46 so - the operating system driver works. the oem providers software works. the custom nero tool doesnt. go whine at them not debating operating systems Feb 28 01:40:28 unixSnob: look, at #maemo we are not really experts for windows problems. If it only happens with nero you could just call the nero support. Feb 28 01:40:41 What do you whine at them? I don't even care if that problem gets solved, that's not why I brought it up Feb 28 01:41:26 * fysa yawns Feb 28 01:41:28 nomis, thanks.. you actually seem to know more than the folks in #linux, and I'm almost afraid of what I'll find in #windows Feb 28 01:41:43 * lcuk wonders when nero and norton are gonna be available for n810 Feb 28 01:42:13 * fysa compiles a hammer to smash his own face in. Feb 28 01:42:42 lol Feb 28 01:42:58 unixSnob: going back to the memory protection thing - each driver would have to register where it has to access protected memory. The driver itself is the only one knowing this. The kernel maybe then could prevent them from accessing memory other than their registered memory. Feb 28 01:43:23 unixSnob: however, this does not help if a rogue driver registers the wrong memory addresses and writes nonsense to them. Feb 28 01:44:11 damn, so the memory protection unit is nearly worthless Feb 28 01:44:16 I don't know how microkernels are supposed to work, but they have (I think) a strong layering in their internal infrastructure. That might help there. Feb 28 01:44:33 I might explore that Feb 28 01:45:52 but I think microkernels is more about a sane architecture than protecting random memory accesses/corruptions from buggy drivers. The question is: How do you specify what a driver is allowed to and what not? Feb 28 01:46:16 ... and how do you detect a misbehaviour and the responsible party? Feb 28 01:46:24 I would expect the driver to /ask/ the OS for an allocation Feb 28 01:46:25 you make all rouge processes indicate themselves with an evil bit Feb 28 01:46:39 rogue even, they arent red Feb 28 01:46:43 And the OS should decide what block of memory the driver gets Feb 28 01:47:17 but what if all that happens and the driver writes bad data to its own memory block corrupting everything? Feb 28 01:47:42 And then whenever a driver wants to write, it sends what it wants written to the OS, who does it. Feb 28 01:47:57 And if the reference is bad, the OS rejects it Feb 28 01:47:57 but how does the os know what is right? Feb 28 01:48:06 The OS did the allocation Feb 28 01:48:12 the reference location is correct, im just stuffing the wrong data into it Feb 28 01:48:25 like image width 0xfffe Feb 28 01:48:31 anyone know if there is a developer reference rootfilesystem for OS2008? Feb 28 01:48:33 Right, and that's fine, that's not going to corrupt /other/ processes Feb 28 01:48:53 unixSnob: wait, we're not only talking about the usual RAM memory. Feb 28 01:48:53 but the device is the hard disk Feb 28 01:49:03 If a process wants to trash itself, there's only so much you can do Feb 28 01:49:15 Sure, but that's always a risk Feb 28 01:49:19 so its now writing directly to the hard drive at arbitary sectors Feb 28 01:49:21 unixSnob: there are things like IO-Adresses, Registers etc. pp. which are adressed the same way as the regular memory. Drivers need to access this. Feb 28 01:49:49 unixSnob: *and* which affect the behaviour of the whole CPU. Feb 28 01:50:29 Yeah, well, there's a limitation on how much one can protect. Feb 28 01:50:50 But it seems in the current state of things, kernels are not protecting half of what they could Feb 28 01:51:22 so, you just made the system 10 times slower and you arent any better off because when your legitimate nero device driver does the wrong thing on the ide port the next process needing data becomes borken Feb 28 01:51:30 I mean, there's no reason to give a video driver access to IDE drivers memory space Feb 28 01:51:44 they are protected just fine. if software is unstable, uninstall the fucking thing Feb 28 01:52:26 unixSnob: did you ever do driver development? Feb 28 01:52:33 no Feb 28 01:52:48 but it sounds like a free for all :) Feb 28 01:53:22 I could write a webcam driver that dumps all over a USB drivers space, if I wanted, apparently Feb 28 01:53:29 unixSnob: I did, and I think that you're barking up the wrong tree. Most problems have other reasons than memory corruption I think. Feb 28 01:53:49 ok, microsoft have thought of this, they have a designed for xxx. ONLY use legit software - that means NOT installing anything else Feb 28 01:54:16 if the "i cant see a digital signature" warning comes up, heed it and dont install the driver Feb 28 01:54:30 Well, my CD driver happens to be Windows certified, in fact, produced by MS. Feb 28 01:54:35 unixSnob: I think it is quite likely that the nero driver fucks up your IDE bus. Memory protection would not help, because the CDROM driver *has* to use the IDE stuff. Feb 28 01:54:42 But I guess it's the nero driver that's bad Feb 28 01:54:49 but not the ones from nero, or the others which are in the cd chain Feb 28 01:55:05 have you installed any games? Feb 28 01:55:15 that signature stuff is bogus anyway. Feb 28 01:55:30 because THEY install drivers through hidden back doors to "validate" your disks authenticity. those cause problems Feb 28 01:55:40 lcuk: well, as far as I understood this discussion we're not really trying to fix the specific problem. Feb 28 01:55:49 thats not the point. Feb 28 01:55:51 hm.. dunno if i've installed games since my last reinstall Feb 28 01:56:16 no, but its making the point about his issue because he keeps bringing it back up re: protecting the system Feb 28 01:56:17 Right, i don't care about the problem.. just want to understand BSODs generally Feb 28 01:56:25 And why I don't see as many kernel panics Feb 28 01:56:44 I always thought the linux kernel was more reliable Feb 28 01:56:51 (apparently I was wrong) Feb 28 01:57:38 unixSnob: It is more reliable. main reason: Windows drivers come from various sources, namely the hardware vendors. Linux drivers usually undergo a strong peer review, because their source is open. Feb 28 01:57:44 for the nokia, bad software comes around like in windows, but more often than not its repaired quickly. there was a storm in a teacup recently when people installed the rfcomm stack Feb 28 01:58:36 now aparantly thats all fixed and people can install it without it breaking (unless its regressed) Feb 28 01:58:56 unixSnob: an observation I made is that as soon as you isntall closed source drivers for linux (e.g. for graphics cards) the system stability tends to get hurt. Feb 28 01:59:16 unixSnob: the obvious downside is, that there are by far less drivers for linux. Feb 28 01:59:26 i.e. you have to pick your hardware more carefully. Feb 28 01:59:53 Yeah, I agree closed source isn't /seen/ as much, thus less reliable Feb 28 02:00:17 I'm just not sure why that principle doesn't carry into the kernel itself Feb 28 02:00:25 huh? Feb 28 02:00:33 Eg. the Windows kernel is as reliable as teh linux kernel Feb 28 02:00:41 (drivers aside) Feb 28 02:01:02 closed source has fewer eyes on it, so fewer defects are discovered Feb 28 02:02:09 i would hazard thats not entirely the case all the time. certain projects get the lions share of eyes whilst others trundle along with users and exploits just sitting under then like anything else Feb 28 02:03:01 lcuk: that probably is true. But the drivers that get shipped with the Linux-Kernel usually have had quite a few eyeballs on them. Feb 28 02:03:56 unixSnob: well, Microsoft has lots of smart people. They have a lot of ressources at hand to get a rock solid kernel. Feb 28 02:04:50 unixSnob: the problem is, that with every china-webcam you install a driver from some "fire-and-forget" driver development guy. This is what brings down the windows system. Feb 28 02:04:52 it's probably better than I give it credit for Feb 28 02:05:16 and a typical windows installation has a *lot* of third party drivers. Feb 28 02:05:40 "Certified by microsoft" does not mean that microsoft has put a lot of ressources into it to find all the bugs. Feb 28 02:06:01 It just amazes me that there's no practical way for the OS to completely do its job, and protect the system from a bad rapid-fire driver Feb 28 02:06:30 Cerfied drivers just mean they were tested by MS, AFAIK Feb 28 02:06:55 unixSnob: I tried to explain it above: it is simply a *very* hard problem to tell, which access to some IO-Memory/Registers is legitimate. Feb 28 02:07:10 unixSnob: that problem sounds a lot like a problem for an AI. Feb 28 02:07:37 Right, I understood that.. I suppose drivers must be able to access registers and the like. Feb 28 02:08:32 But it sounds like drivers have free rein on every element in the system, and I think a smartly designed OS could stop that Feb 28 02:08:53 the best thing a kernel can do is to provide APIs to access the ressources in a controlled manner, so that driver developers can use a more high level stuff with less chances to get stuffwrong. Feb 28 02:09:18 Right, that makes sense Feb 28 02:09:30 Does that happen? Feb 28 02:09:49 (and the linux kernel does that, although the internal APIs tend to change frequently) Feb 28 02:10:13 Does the windows kernel do that? Feb 28 02:10:18 unixSnob: yeah. For examle if you want to use a DMA there is an API to request it, configure it and use it. Feb 28 02:10:37 unixSnob: I would suspect that windows does that as well. I have no real clue though. Feb 28 02:12:17 That would actually be a good way to assess reliability on an OS.. by how much of an API is offered to drivers Feb 28 02:12:23 anyway. It is 3:15 AM here and I'll head for the bed now. Feb 28 02:12:26 Night all. Feb 28 02:12:31 wow.. where are you? Feb 28 02:13:02 unixSnob: Germany. Feb 28 02:13:15 gooontahgin! Feb 28 02:13:21 I'm sure I botched that Feb 28 02:13:47 hm? Feb 28 02:14:04 I was trying to say good night in german.. guess I really botched it Feb 28 02:14:08 was that supposed to mean "Gute Nacht"? Feb 28 02:14:18 lol.. yeah Feb 28 02:14:22 :) Feb 28 03:01:10 good morning Feb 28 03:04:03 mornin' Feb 28 03:45:43 does anyone know what the default lock code is for the n810? Feb 28 03:48:29 lock code? Feb 28 03:49:04 ah, it can be locked as well :) Feb 28 03:49:59 I would try, 12345 Feb 28 03:51:09 The default lock code for the N810 is 12345 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14221 Feb 28 03:52:49 <^Jsn^> thanks Feb 28 03:59:27 <^Jsn^> does anyone know how to refresh a webpage on the n810? Feb 28 04:00:09 I think it's in the click-and-hold menu Feb 28 04:01:18 it's also in the menu menu Feb 28 04:01:20 hey Feb 28 04:02:08 <^Jsn^> i couldn't find it in the menu Feb 28 04:03:38 <^Jsn^> i was told that it was thre tab button but there isn't a tab key Feb 28 04:14:56 the "tab button" as in the little icon on the window's tab Feb 28 04:14:58 I'm sure Feb 28 04:15:08 and it's under Navigation Feb 28 04:22:26 <^Jsn^> does anyone know if there is an update for maemo mapper for the n810 that fixes the gps receiver problem? Feb 28 04:22:42 the problem is not in maemo mapper Feb 28 04:24:57 <^Jsn^> so it hasn't been fixed? Feb 28 04:31:09 <^Jsn^> is there any way to get satellite type images in maemo mapper? Feb 28 04:32:10 I believe that is covered in the itt thread on the topic Feb 28 04:32:55 <^Jsn^> ok Feb 28 04:34:15 which repos are safe and play nicely of the ones listed at http://gronmayer.com/it/ Feb 28 04:34:23 and are actually useful to install? Feb 28 05:08:12 nd_770 isn't around is he? Feb 28 05:17:31 wow, maemopad+ is awesome Feb 28 05:23:06 livinded: if only there was useful calendar application Feb 28 05:24:18 T0b0tras: I'm going to try to contribute to one, I need one as well Feb 28 05:24:52 I'm fairly decent with C but have never touched gtk before Feb 28 05:27:52 livinded: yep. It's pretty easy if you ever made GUI programming. Feb 28 05:28:22 livinded: I didn't touch C for, erhm... 10 years maybe, and wrote pretty decent (I believe, huh-huh) utility in four days :) Feb 28 05:28:35 I'm a kde guy but I dislike programming in C++ so I avoid a lot of gui programming Feb 28 05:28:50 livinded: See http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/notap/ Feb 28 05:30:19 I'm working on a bluetooth chat program Feb 28 05:30:39 I'm looking into integrating it with pidgin Feb 28 05:31:01 there really isn't a reason to design a whole new gui when a pretty good one already exists Feb 28 05:31:30 how does that contact viewer differ from the one that comes with the n810? Feb 28 05:32:21 GTK is good stuff, compared to most GUI toolkits. Feb 28 05:32:40 It's still got its warts, but they're livable. Feb 28 05:33:02 I like Qt a lot and cocoa is pretty nice, but I just don't like programming in C++ and I don't own a mac or know objective-c Feb 28 05:33:10 livinded: it doesn't require six clicks to see one's phone number :) Feb 28 05:33:24 Well, if you don't like programming in C++, that already means you have good taste. Feb 28 05:33:31 * BTobotras shrugs Feb 28 05:34:08 derf: I know, it's a shame that there are a few things that C++ actually almost is useful for Feb 28 05:34:30 livinded: I've never found one. Feb 28 05:34:49 the way that qt is designed, it wouldn't really work well with C Feb 28 05:35:13 This is true of many libraries. I stand by my answer. Feb 28 05:35:41 Actually, I take it back. C++ has one useful feature, which is that it identifies bad programmers (i.e., those who want to use it). Feb 28 05:35:59 alright, maybe I phrased it wrong, C++ isn't really good for it, but there isn't an alternative available that as many programmers know Feb 28 05:36:22 That I'll believe. Feb 28 05:37:22 There's still a whole quantity vs. quality argument to be had in there, however. Feb 28 05:37:27 the problem with C++ is that it badly fills a void that no other language does Feb 28 05:37:34 I suppose you can argue for many applications it doesn't really matter. Feb 28 05:37:57 Most programming in the real world is just plumbing, anyway. Feb 28 05:39:34 it's low level enough to be used in situations where you need speed and low level optimization while being high level enough to allow for object oriented design patterns Feb 28 05:39:56 Yes, but object-oriented design patterns are often completely inappropriate. Feb 28 05:40:12 The problem is they're often the _only_ design patterns taught in schools, so nobody knows anything else. Feb 28 05:40:21 And when all you've got's a hammer... Feb 28 05:41:05 I hate the comp sci program at my school, they teach it so backwards Feb 28 05:41:43 and waste a ton of time teaching concepts in useless ways Feb 28 05:43:56 Welcome to the comp sci program in almost every school. Feb 28 05:45:10 It's okay though, a bad education system keeps me well employed. Feb 28 05:45:18 hopefully I'll be able to test out of the assembly class and go straight into the compiler design, I don't want to waste a semester learning a virtual architecture that I will never see again Feb 28 05:45:50 As long as you know a _real_ architecture, that's okay. Feb 28 05:45:54 ia32 Feb 28 05:46:08 and I've done some work with arm Feb 28 05:46:13 But there's some value in learning a simplified, virtual architecture for people who've never had experience with that sort of thing before. Feb 28 05:46:38 they could at least teach mips or arm, at least that would be potentially useful and still simplified Feb 28 05:47:10 But someone would have to write a textbook around it, and they're constantly changing. Feb 28 05:47:23 So whatever you learned would be out of date, anyway. Feb 28 05:49:02 But honestly... we spent less than half a semester on the virtual architecture when I took that course, and I'd already learned a similar virtual architecture in high school, so I spent maybe a grand total of 3 hours out of class on all of the projects for it. Feb 28 05:49:08 This does not strike me as a large time investment. Feb 28 05:49:11 not really, the architecture manual available for free online and maybe a small intro into hardware design covering the different components, memory sections, should be sufficient Feb 28 05:49:41 livinded: I think you over-estimate most undergraduates' abilities. Feb 28 05:50:26 Normal people, even normal CS people, don't read architecture manuals. Feb 28 05:50:30 considering the assembly class isn't required for the major I think it would be alright Feb 28 05:50:40 It isn't?! Feb 28 05:50:47 That's downright wrong. Feb 28 05:51:19 my experience with arm was diassembling a binary I had carved out of a restore image by hand and reading the architecture manual to figure out how the bits were packed and what it was doing Feb 28 05:51:26 Please tell me there's _some_ kind of computer architecture class that's required. Feb 28 05:51:33 nope Feb 28 05:51:40 it's optional Feb 28 05:52:00 Don't tell me what school you go to. I don't want to lose all respect I might have for anyone who graduated from there. Feb 28 05:54:42 The one that really bothers me, and that I've run into a lot, are the people who don't know what the << and >> operators were originally for. Feb 28 05:56:50 bitwise shift? Feb 28 05:57:09 Yes... there's a whole generation of students who don't know them as anything other the C++ I/O operators. Feb 28 05:57:19 really? Feb 28 05:57:22 Really. Feb 28 05:57:25 It's astounding. Feb 28 05:57:57 I'm totally against top down teaching of comp sci and they start us with java at my school Feb 28 05:58:09 I've talked to tenure-track professors who had never used them as such in their life. Feb 28 05:58:36 Well, Java is at least moderately cleaner than C++. Feb 28 05:58:51 It's a good language for mediocre programmers, which is probably what most students will wind up being. Feb 28 05:59:27 I'd rather use something like SICP and teach scheme as the first class to get the students to understand what the language actually is doing Feb 28 06:00:12 The problem is, if you drown them in detail, many will give up before they figure out the big picture. Feb 28 06:00:20 then use assembly for algorithms and work up from there teaching higher level languages as most graduates are going to be working with .net, java, or C++ most likely Feb 28 06:00:26 * BTobotras reads russian translation of SICP to look for bugs and typos, as the translation asked for. Feb 28 06:00:27 Now... maybe that's what you want. Feb 28 06:00:56 I know my undergrad university actively attempted to weed out students in the first two years. Feb 28 06:00:58 derf: why should you saturate the field with incompetent programmers because there were a lot of lazy ones who wouldn't have graduated otherwise Feb 28 06:01:25 livinded: It's not that they're incompetent, it's that they don't learn the same way you do. Feb 28 06:02:09 There's also a big market for semi-competent programmers out there. Feb 28 06:02:23 As I said, most real-world programming is just plumbing. Feb 28 06:02:58 If all you had were extremely skilled programmers, they'd get bored out of their minds, and be ridiculously expensive in the bargain. Feb 28 06:03:08 I just can't wait until I can take the security class, I'm going to just be evil to the other students Feb 28 06:03:58 one of the rules is that you have to run a windows box, I'm going to run one with the NIC bound to a vmware device running openbsd which will only run publicfile and openssh Feb 28 06:04:15 and maybe djbdns Feb 28 06:04:27 Nice. Feb 28 06:05:15 not a single packet will ever touch the windows machine Feb 28 06:07:25 Sufficiently evil :) Feb 28 06:07:29 You might want to check before you do so, however. Some TA's do not have a sense of humor. Feb 28 06:08:50 Paavo: this is the kind of stuff I think of when I zone out during my intro to java class Feb 28 06:09:16 You should definitely look into testing out more. Feb 28 06:09:24 I was taking 3rd-year courses by my second semester. Feb 28 06:09:35 they wont let me Feb 28 06:10:02 I wanted to go straight into the data structure class and compiler design class Feb 28 06:10:19 No, you usually have to jump through some administrative hoops first. Feb 28 06:10:25 it doesn't help that I'm like 3 semesters behind in math though Feb 28 06:10:40 Oh, no, that won't help at all. Feb 28 06:10:59 I'm supposed to be in calc 1 or 2 and I'm in college algebra Feb 28 06:11:14 And it's too bad, too. I don't know about your school, but at mine the math department was MUCH nicer about just letting you take whatever courses you wanted. Feb 28 06:11:37 The only reason I didn't die of boredom. Feb 28 06:11:53 I've always been a really bad student because I just didn't care, and now I'm stuck taking math classes over again Feb 28 06:12:05 it's holding up everything else Feb 28 06:12:20 You're supposed to actually care when you're paying good money for it. Feb 28 06:12:29 no, this was in high school Feb 28 06:12:48 Well, they wouldn't let me take advanced math courses in high school either. Feb 28 06:12:59 Then I finished a BS in math in two and a half years. Feb 28 06:13:08 oh, if I had actually passed my classes I could have gone into them Feb 28 06:13:26 I just never studied or did my homework Feb 28 06:13:50 It usually takes a concerted effort to fail high school courses. Feb 28 06:28:22 There any morse code training programs for Maemo? Feb 28 06:32:32 -. --- Feb 28 06:35:12 did you just answer someone who was looking to learn morse code *in* morse code, which they won't understand? :) Feb 28 06:35:14 -.-- --- ..- -- .. --. .... - -... . .- -... .-.. . - --- ..-. .. -. -.. .- ..-. .-.. .- ... .... --- -. . Feb 28 06:35:21 me? no Feb 28 06:35:22 :P Feb 28 06:39:33 flash is a no-go. I'm going to attempt to write one in python Feb 28 06:39:43 thanks for confirming what I suspected :) Feb 28 06:55:37 http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/linuxaudio.png welcome to linux audio Feb 28 06:57:57 it kind of looks how i've linked my electronics together with cables Feb 28 06:57:57 :P Feb 28 07:10:21 http://www.revver.com/video/522307/iphysics-09-for-the-iphone/ Feb 28 07:12:45 doc|home, I learned chinese that way Feb 28 07:13:05 erm, what? :) Feb 28 07:13:19 by dropping graphically drawn objects onto the characters? :) Feb 28 07:13:19 yeah. they taught chinese _in_ chinese while I stayed there. Feb 28 07:13:39 well, we did have books, crappy ones, which had _some_ english. but the teacher didn't know any english. only chinese. Feb 28 07:13:51 it was an "interesting" method to learn a foreign language. Feb 28 07:16:30 if i compile something for the armel thing, then just copy it over to the nokia, can i run it? or does it need to be packaged in some debian package? Feb 28 07:16:44 czr: i liked that approach for japanese Feb 28 07:17:56 truls :-) Feb 28 07:18:00 dookdook, that works Feb 28 07:18:18 hmm...maybe i compiled it wrong... Feb 28 07:21:18 Ugh Feb 28 07:21:30 whats the link to the site with the repos again? Feb 28 07:23:47 gronmayer.com/it Feb 28 07:24:05 Thx Feb 28 07:25:29 to be clear, if scratchbox, i do 'sb-conf select CHINOOK_ARMEL', 'gcc blabedyblah' and that will create an executable that i can just copy over to the nokia to run? Feb 28 07:26:11 czr: erm, I think you misunderstand what it is I linked to :) Feb 28 07:26:19 dookdook, yes should work Feb 28 07:26:47 dookdook, what does "file " say? Feb 28 07:26:58 doc|home, what is? linked to? bleh :-) just woke up, need clear semantics! Feb 28 07:27:17 dookdook, and does it work in scratchbox? Feb 28 07:27:22 hell: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.8, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped Feb 28 07:27:32 czr: the url :) Feb 28 07:27:46 and it does work in scratchbox. i do 'run-standalone.sh ./hell' and it runs fine Feb 28 07:28:13 doc|home, ahhh. I never noticed the link. meant that in the same way as the morse-thingy that you noted about before :-) Feb 28 07:30:25 dookdook, cli or gtk application? Feb 28 07:31:02 gtk+ i believe...its the simple hello world from the tutorial Feb 28 07:31:06 and whats cli? Feb 28 07:31:15 also, notice that on the nokia, its not executable... Feb 28 07:31:31 ah, dookdook is it on a card? Feb 28 07:31:39 yes Feb 28 07:31:44 move it out :) Feb 28 07:33:21 and then change properties to executable? Feb 28 07:33:37 yes Feb 28 07:33:50 FAT doesn't have fancy things like that Feb 28 07:35:17 for easy testing cycle I suggest install ssh -- you can just scp things to the tablet and even run things remotely Feb 28 07:35:58 nfs for me Feb 28 07:36:39 ok, so i moved it into a directory under MyDocs, changed it so its executable, but still no luck Feb 28 07:36:59 error messages? Feb 28 07:37:45 ah! never mind Feb 28 07:37:58 ok, so running from the command line works, but clicking on it from the file menu doesn't execute it... Feb 28 07:38:06 yeah Feb 28 07:38:54 so you can't launch applications from the file manager? Feb 28 07:39:19 no, but there's really no need, is there? Feb 28 07:39:39 its just typing is so slow... Feb 28 07:40:22 there may be some desktop applets that let you add an icon to desktop... Feb 28 07:40:34 but really, try ssh Feb 28 07:42:00 yeah, i'll get that installed Feb 28 07:43:04 just a few questions, if you don't mind. you can't run applications from the memory cards? and whats up with the permissions? i noticed that the group was root for the file on the memory card, making it so i couldn't change its properties.. Feb 28 07:43:36 vfat does not store owner/group info as far as i know Feb 28 07:44:04 is there an equivalent of sudo in this environment Feb 28 07:44:13 sudo :) Feb 28 07:44:14 ah, ok, sorry, you mentioned that earlier jku, i missed it... Feb 28 07:44:36 right right...so i sudo, asking for a password...i never set up a root account... Feb 28 07:44:47 thouhg i have problems with it when i add myself to the sudoers files (boot hang), so i just ssh root@localhost when needed Feb 28 07:45:21 dookdook: install ssh from extras repo, the configuration part will prompt you for a root password Feb 28 07:47:42 melmoth, can i just do something like apt-get install ssh on the nokia? Feb 28 07:48:01 as root yes Feb 28 07:48:39 um...if i can't change root password till i install ssh and i can't install ssh until i have root... Feb 28 07:49:03 oh, meaning, i can't until i have ssh set up via other means Feb 28 07:49:59 you should do, as long as the extras reposiory is activated Feb 28 07:50:35 (go in the pakcages installer application , it s there by default but not enabled) Feb 28 07:50:44 now, i have to rush. good luck. Feb 28 07:52:32 wait, sorry, wheres the packages installer? Feb 28 07:55:53 dookdook, Application Manager Feb 28 07:56:14 in settings, IIRC Feb 28 07:56:24 thanks, got it Feb 28 07:56:30 wow, flite too Feb 28 07:58:31 ach...application manager quits out every once in a while. is it still a little buggy? Feb 28 07:58:43 haven't seen that Feb 28 08:02:26 App Manager is open Feb 28 08:02:36 I'm not sure why somebody hasn't gone in and tried to patch it up a bit. Feb 28 08:12:54 that somebody sure is lazy Feb 28 08:23:19 Is there a definitve answer to the question if the CX3110x/STLC4550 Feb 28 08:23:26 can work in master mode Feb 28 08:23:35 I.e. as an AP. Feb 28 08:24:00 No. Feb 28 08:24:18 Unless you want to re-write the drivers, then "maybe". Feb 28 08:25:38 'No' as in 'there is no definitve answer' or as in 'cannot work in master mode' or 'cannot work in master mode with current drivers'? Feb 28 08:26:12 I was under the impression that this is also a hardware feature. I might be mistaken. Feb 28 08:26:20 Unless you want to re-write the drivers, then "maybe". Feb 28 08:26:32 I don't know whether or not the hardware supports it. Feb 28 08:26:43 But I do know it is definitely not possible with the current drivers. Feb 28 08:26:43 Ok. thanks. Feb 28 08:31:15 Would be cool to be able to use the n800 as a mobile hotspot, with uplink via bluetooth/3G. Feb 28 08:32:45 oh, finally. A new stable D-Bus release (1.1.20) Feb 28 08:33:09 I hope it makes it to Diablo Feb 28 08:34:36 scummvm doesn't come with any games, does it? Feb 28 08:34:49 (and if not, where can i find games for scumm?) Feb 28 08:35:42 several games on scummvm.org Feb 28 08:36:38 the rest you mostly can't get legally if you don't own them already Feb 28 08:37:37 nice, thanks. Feb 28 08:38:07 there definately seems to be something wrong with my battery. it hasn't been on more than an hour and its saying its as if it has 4 hours of use... Feb 28 08:38:29 oh, wait, nevermind Feb 28 08:42:50 somebody know the format of the futur MID of Intel ? Feb 28 08:42:58 more like a N810, or a Samsung Q1 Ultra ? Feb 28 08:43:08 (not hardware skill, just format) Feb 28 08:43:28 yeah, video is definately a little slow. playing an .avi under mplayer and its a little jerky Feb 28 08:44:30 you'll probably have to re-encode a lot of your videos to make them playable 400x240 divx/mp4 w/ mp3 audio @ 700 - 1000Kb/s is pretty optimal Feb 28 08:44:56 Zic, somewhere between a NIT and a UMPC. Feb 28 08:45:05 Intel has reference designs on their website. Feb 28 08:45:18 oh, I don't see it, thanks Feb 28 08:45:41 dookdook, I've had good success with a lot of stuff in the ~560x420 range. Feb 28 08:45:42 GeneralAntilles: the final question, is, is it « pocketable » Feb 28 08:45:55 and low-motion widescreen stuff up into the 600-pixel range horizontal. Feb 28 08:45:58 for example, the actual hardware to dev Ubuntu Mobile is a Samsung Q1 Ultra Feb 28 08:46:08 ok, thanks for the suggestions Feb 28 08:46:16 it's definately not "pocketable" like a N810 Feb 28 08:46:21 Morning, all Feb 28 08:48:58 Zic, on google, search "intel mid site:engadget.com" and you'll end up with a lot of examples Feb 28 08:49:07 thanks Feb 28 08:50:06 http://www.intel.com/products/mid/index.htm Feb 28 08:50:40 GeneralAntilles: yes, I found this page, but no info about dimension Feb 28 08:50:45 just pictures … Feb 28 08:51:00 LCD ~5 in. Feb 28 08:51:45 so, the futur MID of Intel will be more a N810 platform ? Feb 28 08:52:00 like a* Feb 28 08:52:05 Zic, somewhere between a NIT and a UMPC. Feb 28 08:52:18 ok Feb 28 08:53:13 and why is the camera so poor? isn't it supposed to be 640x480? Feb 28 08:53:49 Resolution has little to do with image quality. Feb 28 08:53:58 it's a crappy lens attached to a crappy sensor Feb 28 08:54:41 oh... Feb 28 08:56:50 morning Feb 28 09:00:04 morning Feb 28 09:02:38 somebody use it ? => https://garage.maemo.org/projects/usb-otg-plugin/ Feb 28 09:11:02 um...ifconfig and misc. other tools? Feb 28 09:11:44 johnx: camera sensor was added as bonus from chip vendors probably Feb 28 09:12:06 swag handed out at a convention maybe? :) Feb 28 09:12:09 'take 100 000 of chips and we will give you 100 000 crappy camera sensors as bonus' Feb 28 09:12:31 dookdook, ifconfig is in /sbin Feb 28 09:12:35 it's a symlink to busybox Feb 28 09:12:57 same was with gps chip - TI added chips as bonus to cpu order Feb 28 09:13:25 johnx, thanks. i really hate being so stupid sometimes Feb 28 09:13:26 yesterday I drove 15-20km and n810 was not able to get fix during that time Feb 28 09:14:17 hrw, nice... ;) Feb 28 09:14:24 mm, any pymaemo developers around? i have an odd problem when trying to build the python package using both dpkg-buildpackage and pythonsdk - ending up in failing in sharedinstall with build/lib-armel-something "illegal seek" or "function not implemented", when running under chinook-armel Feb 28 09:15:01 Zic: yes. Looks like working one :) Feb 28 09:15:35 thanks :) Feb 28 09:25:52 Stskeeps, "function not implemented": code probably does something that qemu is not capable of Feb 28 09:26:06 bon dia / good morning Feb 28 09:26:22 jku: yeah, figured as much :P just wondered how they built the package in the first place then Feb 28 09:26:54 Stskeeps, hmm? you said it fails when running? Feb 28 09:27:13 yeah, dpkg-buildpackage with the usual parameters fails when building Feb 28 09:27:16 in make sharedinstall Feb 28 09:27:22 oh right Feb 28 09:27:29 (with the source from apt-get source python-2.5) Feb 28 09:27:46 well that's weird Feb 28 09:28:18 so now i'm just trying to see if trying under maemo-sdk+ would make any difference Feb 28 09:28:56 big thing like python, you're bound to end up in problems... but probably different ones :) Feb 28 09:29:04 probably :P Feb 28 09:29:18 why i'm asking is because i'm attempting to make a stackless python port as well to experiment with migrating code using pickling tasklets Feb 28 09:29:45 cool Feb 28 10:15:21 Hmm, I've somme issue with Hardy Heron and the Maemo Scratchbox => http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/57672/ Feb 28 10:15:33 somebody has an idea ? Feb 28 10:20:54 Zic: http://www.progbox.co.uk/wordpress/?p=453 comments 12 and 13 Feb 28 10:23:42 ad-n770, you around? Feb 28 10:26:45 yes, dookdook Feb 28 10:26:57 dookdook: good morning Feb 28 10:27:31 ad-n770 gm. so, i got scratchbox running, along with xephyr and the sdk. i got a hello world program going and put it on the nokia Feb 28 10:27:58 so, i was hoping to try my hand at the mpeg2 stuff Feb 28 10:29:23 dookdook: last time that I was doing this stuff I noticed that qemu cann't run arm6 instructions, so you will have to write and test it on the device Feb 28 10:29:51 jjo: thanks, it works Feb 28 10:29:57 i might be remembering incorrectly, i thought qemu could but it was just slow? Feb 28 10:30:24 dookdook: my approach would be create a unit test simple code to test your assembly and including the C reference Feb 28 10:31:07 dookdook: last time that I checked qemu can't run arm6 media instructions due a legal restriction from arm Feb 28 10:31:19 It was lifted recently Feb 28 10:31:48 zuh: and qemu emulates it now? Feb 28 10:32:17 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.qemu/21268/match=permission Feb 28 10:32:35 ad-n770, i compiled the hello world for arm, set up the appropriate scratchbox environment and it ran fine... Feb 28 10:32:40 same code ran on the nokia... Feb 28 10:32:43 zuh: nice news Feb 28 10:34:32 jumpula: Was an ARMv6-cabable qemu included in the recent sb cputransparency release? Feb 28 10:35:43 dookdook: seems that I was wrong, I use to add -march=armv6j -mtune=arm1136j-s when the target device is n8x0 Feb 28 10:36:15 dookdook: I use to install ssh server and gdb on the device also Feb 28 10:36:27 i've got ssh running Feb 28 10:36:39 and you use gdb? Feb 28 10:36:42 dookdook: with a mini unit test it's easier to debug that with the decoder Feb 28 10:37:06 i don't want to pollute this channel..you want to go somewhere else and chat? Feb 28 10:37:15 dookdook: yes, I use gdb on the device Feb 28 10:38:07 zuh: depends how capable you want it to be Feb 28 10:38:33 zuh: as you know, the userland qemu is far from perfect Feb 28 10:40:07 good morning Feb 28 10:40:11 but there are qemu's in the devkit that should run code compiled with options like -march=armv7a -mcpu=cortex-a8 Feb 28 10:40:33 so, arm6 *should* be pretty okay... Feb 28 10:41:16 i've grown too cautious to say things like a simple yes :] Feb 28 10:41:53 (not implying that a simple yes would do in this case) Feb 28 10:43:38 Oh yes, the "cabable" was more like "after the support has been implemented" not "v6 instructions work" :) Feb 28 10:54:29 hi all **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 28 10:59:56 2008