**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jun 22 02:59:57 2008
Jun 22 03:00:17 <GeneralAntilles> lol
Jun 22 03:00:30 <summatusmentis> erm... why?
Jun 22 03:00:36 <GeneralAntilles> Leathermans are invaluable tools.
Jun 22 03:01:16 <summatusmentis> I feel like I'd carry one around, forget I had it, and then try to go through airport security with it
Jun 22 03:01:26 <rm_you> cheap!!! Projector Screen
Jun 22 03:01:56 <rm_you> putting it on the wall currently
Jun 22 03:01:59 <summatusmentis> I see
Jun 22 03:02:12 <rm_you> 102" diagonal :P
Jun 22 03:02:17 <rm_you> win :P
Jun 22 03:02:22 <GeneralAntilles> Mine's become a hip tumor.
Jun 22 03:02:49 <GeneralAntilles> Projectors suck
Jun 22 03:03:13 <derf> I'm _still_ pissed about TSA confiscating my precision screwdriver set in 2003.
Jun 22 03:03:27 <summatusmentis> they took screwdrivers?
Jun 22 03:03:45 <derf> They sure did.
Jun 22 03:04:05 <summatusmentis> for what reason?
Jun 22 03:04:17 <derf> Because they could.
Jun 22 03:04:28 <summatusmentis> :-/
Jun 22 03:04:29 <summatusmentis> lame
Jun 22 03:04:32 <GeneralAntilles> The agent needed a set
Jun 22 03:04:42 <derf> Well, too bad for him.
Jun 22 03:04:48 <summatusmentis> I've carried knitting needles through and noone said anything
Jun 22 03:04:50 <derf> He got the bits, but not the driver.
Jun 22 03:05:41 <derf> I've never seen another set like it... had a nice, thick plastic handle on the driver that really let you get some torque on the things.
Jun 22 03:06:16 <Dekaritae> GeneralAntilles: Some people won't buy Leatherman because they don't make lefty tools, but I can one-hand the blade on the Skeletool lefted
Jun 22 03:06:34 <derf> They were part of a grab-bag of gifts from a contest I won, so I wouldn't even know where to look to buy something like that.
Jun 22 03:06:41 <derf> I've never seen anything remotely similar in a store.
Jun 22 03:07:28 <Dekaritae> http://www.linux-mag.com/images/2007-12/gift-guide/Skeletool_CX_Beauty.jpg
Jun 22 03:07:48 <summatusmentis> the TSA get's anal about stupid things
Jun 22 03:07:50 <lopz> night
Jun 22 03:08:41 <summatusmentis> 'night lopz
Jun 22 03:09:07 <lopz> yeah
Jun 22 03:09:09 <lopz> bye
Jun 22 03:09:09 <lopz> xD
Jun 22 03:09:17 <derf> I mean, I work for a defense contractor, and was taking them on a business trip because I _actually_ _needed_ them.
Jun 22 03:09:44 <derf> But I didn't think trying to explain to the guy that he was hurting national security more than he was helping it would've done much good.
Jun 22 03:10:10 <summatusmentis> you don't get like... security clearance or something that you can just flash and they leave you alone?
Jun 22 03:10:26 <derf> As it was he almost made my miss my (domestic) flight despite arriving at the airport 3 hours early.
Jun 22 03:10:54 <derf> summatusmentis: Only if you actually work for the government itself.
Jun 22 03:11:20 <derf> But even that doesn't work very well outside your chosen agency.
Jun 22 03:11:26 <summatusmentis> psh, no fair
Jun 22 03:12:03 <derf> Like, my sister works for TSA, so she's got creds to flash. But if she wanted to get into, say, Coast Guard headquarters, they'd just look at her funny.
Jun 22 03:12:41 <summatusmentis> well, sure
Jun 22 03:12:57 <summatusmentis> but I feel like some creds would trump stupid TSA rules
Jun 22 03:13:23 <derf> I'm pretty sure if someone from the Coast Guard tried to flash creds at a TSA worker, they still wouldn't buy it.
Jun 22 03:13:50 <derf> The people at the bottom don't know nothing _but_ the rules.
Jun 22 03:13:55 <summatusmentis> they might if it were NSA or something
Jun 22 03:14:13 <derf> I don't think the NSA goes around flashing creds.
Jun 22 03:14:46 <derf> FBI or CIA maybe, but now you're talking actual law enforcement officials, and that's different.
Jun 22 03:14:55 <summatusmentis> heh, alright, fair enough
Jun 22 03:15:12 <derf> An NSA employee would just as soon no one knew he worked for them at all.
Jun 22 03:15:33 <summatusmentis> probably true
Jun 22 03:19:50 <nelson> yeah, but "..... because of the terrorist threat" trumps all civilian rules.
Jun 22 03:20:14 <nelson> derf An NSA employee would just as soon no one knew he worked for them at all .... because of the terrorist threat.
Jun 22 03:20:25 <nelson> summatusmentis probably true .... because of the terrorist threat.
Jun 22 03:20:43 <nelson> It's like catsup -- it goes with everything and you can put as much as you want on.
Jun 22 03:23:21 <summatusmentis> except... ketchup doesn't go with ice cream
Jun 22 03:23:24 <summatusmentis> or peanut butter
Jun 22 03:23:41 <derf> You don't need ice cream or peanut butter. What are you, some kind of terrorist?
Jun 22 03:24:11 <derf> I remember thinking, when the Berlin wall fell, "What bogeyman is the government going to use to scare people now?"
Jun 22 03:24:12 <summatusmentis> who doesn't need ice cream or peanut butter?!?
Jun 22 03:24:18 <derf> It took them longer than I expected to find one.
Jun 22 03:25:34 <summatusmentis> does it bother you, being a government contractor?
Jun 22 03:25:56 <derf> Not really, no.
Jun 22 03:25:57 <nelson> it's your patriotic duty to be scared of terrorists.
Jun 22 03:26:35 <derf> I mean, _I'm_ not trying to scare people.
Jun 22 03:26:47 <summatusmentis> derf: you don't ever feel like you're supporting something you shouldn't be?
Jun 22 03:27:18 <derf> Are you kidding? Every dollar they spend on me is one they can't spend hurting citizens.
Jun 22 03:28:06 <summatusmentis> even though you're in the end, helping a system
Jun 22 03:29:06 <derf> So is everyone who pays taxes.
Jun 22 03:29:16 <nelson> So is everyone who votes.
Jun 22 03:29:21 <derf> That was my next example.
Jun 22 03:29:32 <summatusmentis> yes, to an extent. I'm not trying to rip into you, just genuinely curious
Jun 22 03:29:47 <derf> Or, if you want to get down to it, everyone who _doesn't_ pick up arms and try to storm the capitol.
Jun 22 03:30:01 <derf> I know what the government does with the stuff I build, and I've got no problem with any of it.
Jun 22 03:30:24 <summatusmentis> I guess that was my question, yes
Jun 22 03:30:50 <derf> I suppose some day they could ask me for something I did have a problem with, but I'm a civilian. I can say "no".
Jun 22 03:32:13 <summatusmentis> I suppose that's true, I assumed you were working for a company that got contracts
Jun 22 03:32:26 <derf> I am.
Jun 22 03:32:51 <summatusmentis> so you get enough leeway to decide if you want to contribute to the contract?
Jun 22 03:33:00 <summatusmentis> or just end up leaving the company
Jun 22 03:33:10 <derf> I'm usually the one writing the proposals these days.
Jun 22 03:33:20 <derf> But yes, if it came down to it, there's lots of contractors out there.
Jun 22 03:33:29 <summatusmentis> fair enough
Jun 22 04:40:34 <acydlord> sprint is shafting all their data/phone users
Jun 22 04:54:44 <rm_you> I've been thinking about getting a data plan for my phone...
Jun 22 04:54:53 <rm_you> anyone know of an actual DECENT data plan?
Jun 22 04:55:14 <rm_you> i dont know how to interpret the consumer BS they throw at us
Jun 22 04:55:28 <rm_you> it doesnt actually have any stats, they just say shit that would impress soccer moms
Jun 22 04:57:07 <rm_you> http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/plans/Default.aspx?plancategory=7#Internet+Only
Jun 22 04:57:14 <rm_you> is that *really* unlimited?
Jun 22 04:57:24 <rm_you> http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/plans/cell-phone-plans-detail.aspx?tp=tb1&rateplan=T-Mobile-Total-Internet
Jun 22 05:00:38 <acydlord> the sprint data plans were decent
Jun 22 05:00:52 <acydlord> but now they are putting caps on them and threatening to terminate service if you go over
Jun 22 05:01:02 <acydlord> t-mobiles data network sucks
Jun 22 05:01:15 <acydlord> it's slow and spotty
Jun 22 05:01:20 * rwhitby dreams of an Australian data plan that is not limited with hefty excess usage fees ...
Jun 22 05:02:34 <acydlord> this recent change in the data plans over at sprint doesnt give me high hopes for xohm
Jun 22 05:11:38 <rm_you> so basically, give up on getting a decent data plan? >_>
Jun 22 05:16:17 <ds3> nelson: Nice
Jun 22 05:30:18 <RussB> Does anyone know why Aislerot hasn't gotten ported to Maemo 4.x yet?
Jun 22 05:31:00 <RussB> I keep waiting for someone to get around to recompiling it or something.. (as I don't have the knowledge myself to do it).
Jun 22 05:31:04 <GAN800> Somebody did
Jun 22 05:31:04 <qwerty12> It has been. A long time ago now. Check the debfarm repo.
Jun 22 05:31:17 <GAN800> look harder
Jun 22 05:31:42 <RussB> Well, I looked on the maemo download site and on the official gnome.org Hildon page...
Jun 22 05:31:53 <RussB> You know, just the obvious places. :-)
Jun 22 05:32:45 <rm_you> check gronmayer?
Jun 22 05:32:50 <GAN800> google?
Jun 22 05:33:00 <GAN800> 'aisleriot os2008'
Jun 22 05:33:27 <GAN800> 'obvious' by an interesting definition.
Jun 22 05:36:05 <RussB> Hmm. Still looking...
Jun 22 05:36:22 <qwerty12> 0.o
Jun 22 05:38:23 <RussB> Ahh, I found a thread from April with Christian Persch from gnome.org...
Jun 22 05:38:57 <qwerty12> Please tell me, how is it possible to miss the first result?
Jun 22 05:39:17 <RussB> The thread with the random packages to install?
Jun 22 05:39:41 <RussB> have you actually gotten that working? Or are you just assuming that's correct?
Jun 22 05:39:46 <qwerty12> The thread with *the* aisleriot packages to install?
Jun 22 05:39:50 <qwerty12> Yes, I have had it working.
Jun 22 05:40:21 <RussB> Sure.
Jun 22 05:40:47 <qwerty12> Well, it ain't just me who has had it working ;)
Jun 22 05:41:03 <GAN800> lol. . . .
Jun 22 05:41:14 <RussB> And it ain't just me asking about it... :-)
Jun 22 05:42:16 <qwerty12> Easiest way would be to go to gronmayer, add the debfarm repo and go to application manager and install aisleriot from the list.
Jun 22 05:43:03 <qwerty12> The debfarm is a repo which really should be gone and the packages on extras btw, very very unstable (probably because it's on a free web hosting)
Jun 22 05:43:33 <GAN800> qwerty12, who maintains it?
Jun 22 05:43:47 <GAN800> poke them in the eye and tell them to fix it.
Jun 22 05:44:04 <qwerty12> GeneralAntilles, This guy here: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/member.php?u=9312
Jun 22 05:44:23 <GAN800> poke him in the eye for me
Jun 22 05:44:38 <qwerty12> Will do
Jun 22 05:45:17 <rm_you> RussB: http://gronmayer.com/it/dl.php?id=205
Jun 22 05:45:29 <RussB> Yep, thanks! I'm adding it...
Jun 22 05:49:39 <RussB> GAN800, qwerty12, rm_you - Installed and working! Thanks for your help!
Jun 22 05:50:14 <RussB> I can now better keep myself occupied while taking a dump.
Jun 22 05:50:25 <qwerty12> Lol
Jun 22 05:51:04 <rm_you> lol
Jun 22 05:52:47 <rm_you> GeneralAntilles: I'm... at a loss
Jun 22 05:52:53 <rm_you> not sure which ticket to work on
Jun 22 05:53:19 <rm_you> I'm failing at figuring out #2593
Jun 22 05:54:03 <GAN800> fix it! fix it! fix it!
Jun 22 05:54:09 <rm_you> >_>
Jun 22 05:54:13 <GAN800> fix it! fix it! fix it!
Jun 22 05:54:14 <rm_you> will work on it...
Jun 22 05:54:20 <rm_you> I need a better way to do logging
Jun 22 05:54:37 <rm_you> than calling exec() on "echo debugtext > /tmp/mylog" >_>
Jun 22 05:54:56 <rm_you> how do I get my app to output to syslog?
Jun 22 05:55:45 <qwerty12> printk?
Jun 22 05:56:00 <qwerty12> Not sure if it would work here though.
Jun 22 05:56:04 <rm_you> AH
Jun 22 05:56:11 <rm_you> apparently... include syslog.h
Jun 22 06:03:13 <RussB> Got sidetracked with all the other repositories on that list... Browser Extras looks very useful as well!
Jun 22 06:03:18 <RussB> Thanks again! bye!
Jun 22 06:03:57 <GAN800> Browser-extras needs to be pushes to just Extras.
Jun 22 06:04:42 <GAN800> s/pushes/pushed/
Jun 22 06:10:33 <acydlord> most of those need to be pushed to just Extras
Jun 22 06:22:18 <rm_you> grrr
Jun 22 06:22:23 <rm_you> can never get this thing to crash when i need it to
Jun 22 06:27:03 <rm_you> Nokia-N800-51-3 DSME: error reading fd (11): Resource temporarily unavailable
Jun 22 06:27:12 <rm_you> anyone know what might be causing that?
Jun 22 06:27:32 <rm_you> failing to read file descriptor 11? how would i find out which file that is supposed to reference
Jun 22 06:39:44 <rm_you> ok, got logs from a normal start and a crash start
Jun 22 06:43:19 <rm_you> wtf
Jun 22 06:45:01 <rm_you> http://pastebin.org/45296
Jun 22 06:47:41 <qwerty12> s**tf**k, has anyone here daemonized a python app?
Jun 22 06:49:15 <rm_you> dunno, but I'll demonize your python app :P
Jun 22 06:50:26 <qwerty12> Heh, lol, I've got the actual program to work when I invoke it manually from the command line but I can't get init to start it up :/. I've set up all the daemon.py scripts etc correctly, just can't figure it out lol
Jun 22 06:50:52 <qwerty12> Doh, I know what I did.
Jun 22 06:51:01 * qwerty12 slaps myself
Jun 22 06:51:17 <rm_you> i need to get back to coding in python
Jun 22 06:51:18 <rm_you> i miss it
Jun 22 06:51:21 <rm_you> but i need a project
Jun 22 06:53:21 <qwerty12> Meh, I can't code in python anyway, this is just stolen code from lots of places and pimped by me :P
Jun 22 06:53:29 <rm_you> lol
Jun 22 06:57:49 <Jaffa> Morning, all
Jun 22 06:58:01 <qwerty12> Morning
Jun 22 07:06:56 <rm_you> morning
Jun 22 07:07:05 <rm_you> anyone? http://pastebin.org/45296
Jun 22 07:07:32 <rm_you> line 29 is the last output from advanced-backlight...
Jun 22 07:07:56 <rm_you> and on like 46 is where hildon-desktop dies
Jun 22 07:14:56 <rm_you> hrm
Jun 22 07:16:13 <Dekaritae> Is there a way to enable applications like File Manager and Leafpad to browse outside of the home directory?
Jun 22 07:18:54 <qwerty12> For leafpad, you can try the one without any hildonisation: (Older though) http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14510&highlight=leafpad
Jun 22 07:19:13 <qwerty12> As for File Manager, you can make a symlink but I hear reports of some apps going crazy
Jun 22 07:20:06 <Dekaritae> What about setting a file association so that text files open in Leafpad?
Jun 22 07:20:19 <qwerty12> Google dbus-switchboard
Jun 22 07:20:41 <Dekaritae> Yya
Jun 22 07:22:11 <rm_you> Dekaritae: yeah, you can make a symlink to / somewhere in your home directory... but then you will have to disable metalayer-crawler
Jun 22 07:22:17 <rm_you> /etc/init.d/metalayer-crawler0 stop
Jun 22 07:22:44 <Dekaritae> I've already disabled it
Jun 22 07:28:02 <rm_you> k
Jun 22 07:29:34 <rm_you> OMFG
Jun 22 07:29:41 <rm_you> watching spider-man on cable...
Jun 22 07:30:09 <rm_you> willem defoe just said the exact same line in the exact same way with the exact same body expression as in Boondock Saints >_<
Jun 22 07:30:32 <rm_you> I need to clip those side-by-side and put it on youtube :P
Jun 22 07:36:43 <acydlord> which line?
Jun 22 07:38:04 <rm_you> err
Jun 22 07:38:14 <rm_you> i forget exactly what he said now, it's been like 10 minutes :P
Jun 22 07:38:39 <rm_you> but when he's like... "gah, i don't know what to do! someone tell me what to do"
Jun 22 07:38:42 <rm_you> or something like that
Jun 22 07:39:07 <rm_you> in both cases, it's his internal good-evil struggle :P
Jun 22 07:39:33 <rm_you> in both cases, it's deciding on the fate of a vigilante
Jun 22 07:48:51 <Dekaritae> Damn teenagers out side makin a ruckus
Jun 22 07:49:32 <rm_you> mmm spiderman getting his ass kicked by the green goblin... is HD! :P
Jun 22 07:59:41 <rm_you> GeneralAntilles: yoyoyo
Jun 22 07:59:45 <rm_you> GeneralAntilles: do me a favor
Jun 22 08:00:01 <rm_you> or anyone who uses advanced-backlight
Jun 22 08:02:35 <aquatix> morning all
Jun 22 08:02:45 <aquatix> rm_you: hm?
Jun 22 08:04:52 <blueskiesokie> Is there a repository that has corkscrew or something like it?
Jun 22 08:07:03 <rm_you> wget http://cs.trinity.edu/~acm/debs/advanced-backlight.so && mv advanced-backlight.so /usr/lib/hildon-desktop/advanced-backlight.so
Jun 22 08:07:16 <rm_you> aquatix: do that on your n800 as root :P
Jun 22 08:07:17 <aquatix> rm_you: new version?
Jun 22 08:07:23 <aquatix> [n810 ;) ]
Jun 22 08:07:25 <rm_you> aquatix: unload the old version first
Jun 22 08:07:28 <aquatix> ok
Jun 22 08:07:30 <rm_you> n810 whatever :P
Jun 22 08:07:32 <qwerty12> blueskiesokie, http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8710&highlight=corkscrew
Jun 22 08:07:38 <rm_you> unload, run that, reload
Jun 22 08:07:47 <rm_you> and immediately try to change the volume
Jun 22 08:10:06 <aquatix> *boom*
Jun 22 08:11:03 <rm_you> crashed?
Jun 22 08:11:07 <rm_you> >_> damn
Jun 22 08:11:11 <aquatix> yup
Jun 22 08:12:25 <aquatix> tapped the little `less volume' button twice, then it crashed
Jun 22 08:14:29 <acydlord> i borked advanced backlight bigtime earlier
Jun 22 08:14:35 <blueskiesokie> Qwerty12: thanks
Jun 22 08:14:59 <rm_you> acydlord: ?
Jun 22 08:15:38 <acydlord> it was super sunny out, and i usually let my n810 auto adjust the backlight
Jun 22 08:17:16 <acydlord> and i accidentally set it to full, so i couldnt see my screen, when i went to tap it to turn it down the menu just kept opening and closing
Jun 22 08:17:55 <rm_you> .,.....
Jun 22 08:17:57 <rm_you> odd
Jun 22 08:18:11 <acydlord> havent been able to recreate it though so i think it was partly due to the fact that it was 115 out and my tablet was at least 100 itself
Jun 22 08:19:07 <acydlord> but for the most part the n810 handles extreme heat pretty well
Jun 22 08:20:58 <rm_you> rm
Jun 22 08:21:01 <rm_you> *hrm
Jun 22 08:21:12 <rm_you> damnit, this bug is kicking my ass
Jun 22 08:22:22 <acydlord> what the butt, my dvd-rom drive vanished from xp
Jun 22 08:22:37 <rm_you> acydlord: open regedit and search for "lowerfilters"
Jun 22 08:22:37 <qwerty12> I never use mine anymore :/
Jun 22 08:22:53 <rm_you> errr
Jun 22 08:22:56 <acydlord> i was actually about to use mine to watch a roomates movie
Jun 22 08:22:57 <rm_you> here just read this: http://support.microsoft.com/KB/314060
Jun 22 08:23:27 <rm_you> any chance you have Roxio CD burning software?
Jun 22 08:23:39 <acydlord> nope
Jun 22 08:23:46 <rm_you> well, anyway, do that
Jun 22 08:23:53 <rm_you> just do it manually
Jun 22 08:23:57 <acydlord> it was working till i had to put the xp disk in to install a postscript driver
Jun 22 08:23:58 <rm_you> dunno wtf their guided thing is
Jun 22 08:24:17 <acydlord> dunno wtf their guided thing is either, i've had to do it manually before
Jun 22 08:24:26 <qwerty12> You don't have AnyDVD installed?
Jun 22 08:24:29 <rm_you> ah, you've done this before?
Jun 22 08:24:41 <rm_you> I've had to do this like 40 times, lol...
Jun 22 08:24:52 * rm_you worked as a computer repair technician for about 10 years
Jun 22 08:25:12 <rm_you> ... since I was 11. seriously :)
Jun 22 08:25:13 <acydlord> i still work as a repair tech off and on
Jun 22 08:27:43 <acydlord> that was an easy fix =x
Jun 22 08:27:50 <rm_you> :)
Jun 22 08:28:08 <acydlord> went into the device manager and reset the drive letter
Jun 22 08:28:13 <acydlord> and bam it popped back up
Jun 22 08:28:17 <rm_you> lol
Jun 22 08:30:34 <chibiAcyd> now that was odd
Jun 22 08:30:57 <chibiAcyd> went to play the dvd and my display adapter went out
Jun 22 08:31:24 <chibiAcyd> i really need to get a new psu for my main linux box
Jun 22 08:32:51 <rm_you> i really need 5 million dollars
Jun 22 08:33:02 <rm_you> err, well it would be very helpful
Jun 22 08:33:36 <qwerty12> rm_you, Sure, know any banks with weak security?
Jun 22 08:33:57 <rm_you> doubt we could get 5 mill from one bank
Jun 22 08:34:06 <rm_you> doubt we could get one mil
Jun 22 08:34:11 <qwerty12> We'll target a chain then
Jun 22 08:34:15 <rm_you> lol
Jun 22 08:34:32 <qwerty12> But I sense one flaw in this plan, THIS CHANNEL IS LOGGED! ARRGH!
Jun 22 08:35:06 <rm_you> lol
Jun 22 08:35:25 * aquatix wants in
Jun 22 08:36:27 <chibiAcyd> its easy to get 5mil
Jun 22 08:36:55 <qwerty12> Now, this sounds like someone talking from experience, tell us the secret
Jun 22 08:37:18 <chibiAcyd> one of Chase's lovely outsorced offices got around 6mil collectively
Jun 22 08:37:34 <chibiAcyd> so just go work for a chase call center overseas
Jun 22 08:37:54 <qwerty12> Any in London?
Jun 22 08:37:59 * qwerty12 puts on evil grin
Jun 22 08:38:10 <chibiAcyd> personally i'm tempted to move to nigeria and sap money out of all the morons on the internet
Jun 22 08:38:30 <rm_you> chibiAcyd: i don't think you need to actually be in nigeria :P
Jun 22 08:38:44 <qwerty12> But I thought that money was for your dying uncle?! :O
Jun 22 08:38:53 <chibiAcyd> lol
Jun 22 08:39:42 <chibiAcyd> i got one of the scammers to buy me stuff off ebay and then gave them fake bank info
Jun 22 08:40:01 <qwerty12> Haha
Jun 22 08:40:07 <chibiAcyd> i should get back into that hobby
Jun 22 08:40:24 <acydlord> oh hey. windows booted back in faster than expected
Jun 22 08:47:52 <acydlord> i think i need to install more wireless cards in this machine, that way when one neighbors wireless bogs down I can use the next seamlessly
Jun 22 09:13:54 <sven-tek> is it possible to open N800's DISPLAY to other applications in the network? xhost+ or something?
Jun 22 09:15:26 <sven-tek> ... or setting up a vnc server, like vino in gnome?
Jun 22 09:15:51 <towo> I'd just attempt using SSH and X-Forwarding from the N800.
Jun 22 09:19:04 <sven-tek> never figured that out... i'll give it a try
Jun 22 09:33:54 <sven-tek> gee, that works
Jun 22 09:38:37 <lardman> ph5, lcuk: Did you see the latest on the PowerVR bug?
Jun 22 09:38:56 <pH5> lardman: no..
Jun 22 09:39:10 <lardman> a pointer to some code from Android
Jun 22 09:39:26 <lardman> but it just looks like a complicated framebuffer driver, with mbx in the name
Jun 22 09:39:37 <lardman> http://git.android.com/?p=kernel.git;a=tree;f=drivers/video/mbx;hb=HEAD
Jun 22 09:40:26 <pH5> oh that. it's in the mainline kernel :/
Jun 22 09:40:30 <pH5> yup, just a dumb fb driver
Jun 22 09:41:04 <pH5> intel 2700G is a companion chip to pxa27x cpus that contains a powervr
Jun 22 09:41:21 <lardman> yeah, annoying naming :)
Jun 22 09:41:29 <lardman> misleading naming :)
Jun 22 09:46:26 <lcuk> i am starting to wonder if we actually have 3dinside ;)
Jun 22 09:46:45 <lardman> lcuk: I'm sure we do, remember what Kate said?!
Jun 22 09:47:59 <lcuk> yes (barely though, not fully functioning yet..)
Jun 22 09:50:29 <lardman> ah I heard that it works, but the code is crappy and buggy and wouldn't be released like that
Jun 22 09:50:42 <lardman> and equally there's no point in paying someone to rewrite it
Jun 22 09:52:27 <lcuk> yes, she said she had seen in nokia
Jun 22 09:59:51 <rm_you> lcuk: yo
Jun 22 10:00:56 <rm_you> lcuk: http://pastebin.org/45296
Jun 22 10:00:59 <rm_you> >_>
Jun 22 10:04:03 <lcuk> :D cool rm_you has that logging helped (note you should remove after you know it works)
Jun 22 10:05:42 <rm_you> yeah it's all attached to a debug variable >_>
Jun 22 10:05:47 <rm_you> anyways... no
Jun 22 10:05:50 <rm_you> it isn't helping
Jun 22 10:06:02 <rm_you> line 29 is the last thing my program outputs
Jun 22 10:06:12 <lcuk> you sure, it shoes the dmse closing, is that right?
Jun 22 10:06:14 <rm_you> line 45 shows hildon-desktop crashing
Jun 22 10:06:29 <rm_you> lcuk: it does the same thing when it doesn't crash :/
Jun 22 10:06:48 <rm_you> in fact, everything looks EXACTLY the same
Jun 22 10:07:09 <lcuk> exactly? you mean theres no more logging even though it doesnt crash?
Jun 22 10:07:13 <rm_you> the only difference is line 30+
Jun 22 10:07:43 <rm_you> yeah, when it doesn't crash, it gets to line 29, and then... sits
Jun 22 10:07:51 <rm_you> and then i can do other stuff and it continues logging
Jun 22 10:07:56 <lcuk> scary - a google search for adv-backlight brings microsoft as first result :P
Jun 22 10:08:01 <rm_you> >_<
Jun 22 10:08:21 <rm_you> gah
Jun 22 10:08:30 <rm_you> windows CE has an advanced-backlight module >_<
Jun 22 10:15:19 <rm_you> lcuk: reading over IRC logs... you ever get around to writing a patch for the size of adv-backlight's buttons? :P
Jun 22 10:16:10 * lcuk whistles quietly, i downloaded it but got sidetracked with dr who..
Jun 22 10:16:16 <rm_you> lol
Jun 22 10:16:41 <rm_you> doesnt the original applet have identically sized buttons? >_>
Jun 22 10:21:43 <rm_you> hrm
Jun 22 10:21:51 <rm_you> GeneralAntilles: I think I'm gonna start a bounty
Jun 22 10:22:47 <rm_you> I'll put up 20 bucks to anyone who submits a patch that puts advanced-backlight in a proper Hildon Menu thing
Jun 22 10:22:58 <rm_you> wanna pitch in? :P
Jun 22 10:36:07 <Jaffa> lcuk: quite right, it was worth getting distracted over.
Jun 22 10:40:42 <lcuk> jaffa.o.m.g.  im not going to mention a single word of the plot, just simply jaw dropping
Jun 22 10:41:14 <Jaffa> lcuk: aye. Can't wait till next week.
Jun 22 10:42:54 <lcuk> do you think the doctor gets into watching tv during the week when hes not fighting aliens and zips foreward in time to watch the rest of the series ;)
Jun 22 10:45:57 <Saviq> you're talking 'bout Doctor Who, guys?
Jun 22 10:46:23 <lcuk> yer but for the sake of others who havent seen recent eps, dont discuss plot
Jun 22 10:47:00 <Saviq> sure, I haven't seen 'em yet, either
Jun 22 10:47:33 <lcuk> are you in the uk
Jun 22 10:50:29 <sven-tek> anyone here played around with virtualgl or something like that to play 3d games on a n8x0?
Jun 22 10:50:58 <lcuk> sven-tek, virtualgl being software gl stack?
Jun 22 10:51:27 <sven-tek> no, it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VirtualGL
Jun 22 10:52:43 <sven-tek> the idea is, to use a high performance 3D capable PC and transport the rendered images to a client, e.g. a VNC Client.
Jun 22 10:53:01 <lcuk> sven-tek, the problem i see with that implementation would be lack of 3d drivers, unless you know something the rest of us dont
Jun 22 10:53:24 <sven-tek> I have nvidia with good 3D drivers.
Jun 22 10:53:55 <lcuk> ahhh i see which direction, i was thinking of you directly on the device still
Jun 22 10:54:31 <Jaffa> What's the benefit VirtualGL gives you? You have a PC playing the game, which presumably has a monitor, and you need a fast network link. I don't, quite, get it.
Jun 22 10:54:45 <lcuk> no then, dont think its been suggested, could you get the framerate via vnc up there and rendered quickly?  remember the framebuffer on here doesnt like fullscreen updates of the 3d type
Jun 22 10:55:03 <lcuk> 2d type
Jun 22 10:56:35 <sven-tek> Jaffa, i can go to nokia and tell them i made 3D work on N810. Get lots of money and run away as they play quake3d on their n810.
Jun 22 10:57:20 <rm_you> lol
Jun 22 10:57:35 * rm_you grabs the newest who
Jun 22 10:58:18 <lcuk> sven-tek, why would nokia give you lots of money, they have 3d devices up and running in their ivory towers
Jun 22 10:58:33 <Saviq> lcuk: no, I'm in poland
Jun 22 10:59:06 <lcuk> saviq, how far behind are you - i suggest you find a way to catch up and watch everything.  if you are a who fan they are well worth it
Jun 22 11:00:03 <Saviq> the last one I've seen was The Unicorn and The Wasp
Jun 22 11:00:13 <Saviq> so 3 eps behin
Jun 22 11:00:15 <Saviq> d
Jun 22 11:00:27 <lcuk> that makes a nice afternoon of viewing then :)
Jun 22 11:02:03 <sven-tek> lcuk, and multitouch i suppose...
Jun 22 11:02:32 <rm_you> Saviq: got at least the library to go
Jun 22 11:02:37 <rm_you> plus last nights
Jun 22 11:03:00 <lcuk> sven-tek, don't know for sure about that, but it would seem logical that most large research labs have many magical technologies hiding away
Jun 22 11:05:05 <lcuk> im still waiting for true proper lcd hardware multitouch :) instead of just 3 voxels for rgb, they use 4:  RGB+sensor   every single pixel has a light sensor and they know when its covered up.  should be possible using the same tech as current displays just bidirectional
Jun 22 11:06:22 <Jaffa> Our luck says we'd only be able to read 1 pixel inbound every second, due to "bandwidth constraints"
Jun 22 11:06:30 <AStorm> lcuk: how does that react to light?
Jun 22 11:06:58 <AStorm> anyway, capacitive screens can do multitouch not-so-expensively
Jun 22 11:07:24 <AStorm> although they have other drawbacks
Jun 22 11:07:46 <AStorm> I'd love to see a portable sonic screen (sound-wave based)
Jun 22 11:07:55 <AStorm> that should do fairly good multitouch too
Jun 22 11:08:47 <lcuk> jaffa, it should work quite nicely i read a paper on it a while back
Jun 22 11:09:14 <lcuk> and astorm, what do you mean react to light? it would react just like the CCD sensor in your camera cos thats all it is
Jun 22 11:09:19 <AStorm> yes
Jun 22 11:09:36 <AStorm> I mean, would it work in low-light conditions?
Jun 22 11:09:39 <AStorm> or high-light?
Jun 22 11:10:07 <lcuk> well since the lcd is backlit and you always have some leakage you always have *some* light around to pickup on
Jun 22 11:10:25 <lcuk> high light is fine because your finger would cover it up..
Jun 22 11:10:31 <AStorm> hm
Jun 22 11:10:35 <Jaffa> Would be very cool if it could be used as a camera: look at the screen and you're dead on for the webcam. That'd be *very* cool tech
Jun 22 11:10:36 <AStorm> what about medium light then? :P
Jun 22 11:10:51 <AStorm> Jaffa: w/o any lenses? crazy and low-res
Jun 22 11:11:02 <AStorm> you'd be totally out of focus
Jun 22 11:11:18 <AStorm> it could be used as a motion sensor though
Jun 22 11:11:27 <AStorm> (heck, it is one)
Jun 22 11:11:46 <AStorm> lcuk: I'd improve on the tech by using infrared instead of light
Jun 22 11:11:52 <AStorm> that should work better
Jun 22 11:11:59 <AStorm> although more expensively
Jun 22 11:12:02 <lcuk> well its still light
Jun 22 11:12:16 <lcuk> you mean an IR backlight?
Jun 22 11:12:23 <lcuk> type thing
Jun 22 11:12:25 <AStorm> no, what for?
Jun 22 11:12:39 <AStorm> your hands emit or block IR
Jun 22 11:12:45 <lcuk> to reflect from your finger back into the sensor
Jun 22 11:12:49 <AStorm> why?
Jun 22 11:13:13 <lcuk> because then you have a single screen without the need for any outside tech
Jun 22 11:13:19 <sven-tek> i hate touchscreen, they are not responsive
Jun 22 11:13:32 <sven-tek> iam much slower with touchscreen than with keys
Jun 22 11:13:32 <AStorm> sven-tek: they are great for some uses
Jun 22 11:13:41 <AStorm> heh, that's just you
Jun 22 11:13:50 <AStorm> they are not a replacement for key input
Jun 22 11:13:53 <sven-tek> yeah, touchscreens are great for mahjongg
Jun 22 11:14:01 <AStorm> blah, and drawing
Jun 22 11:14:05 <AStorm> and entering handwriting
Jun 22 11:14:05 <lcuk> here is the original LED one i saw, which actually just used the LEDs themselves as sensors
Jun 22 11:14:06 <lcuk> http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ledtouch/index.html
Jun 22 11:14:24 <sven-tek> cool tech
Jun 22 11:14:37 <AStorm> lcuk: note he uses very bright leds
Jun 22 11:14:44 <AStorm> you'd need an excellent sensor
Jun 22 11:14:50 <AStorm> to use normal backlight levels
Jun 22 11:15:15 <lcuk> but the idea is there, hence my original post "im still waiting"
Jun 22 11:15:18 <AStorm> and the sensor with the controller would have to be fairly fast
Jun 22 11:15:31 <rm_you> wait
Jun 22 11:15:32 <lcuk> just like most modern CCD sensors
Jun 22 11:15:32 <sven-tek> touching a black area in an jpg is not possible then?
Jun 22 11:15:35 <rm_you> does he have other sensors there
Jun 22 11:15:38 <lcuk> no
Jun 22 11:15:43 <rm_you> or is he using the LCDs themselves?
Jun 22 11:15:49 <AStorm> lcuk: not really, more like hq digital camera
Jun 22 11:16:05 <AStorm> not your plain webcam (low sensitivity) or scanner (slow)
Jun 22 11:16:13 <lcuk> leds themselves - when they get light on them the current drop or whatever it is changes
Jun 22 11:16:24 <rm_you> err yeah LEDs
Jun 22 11:16:24 <AStorm> fotodiodes actually? :)
Jun 22 11:16:44 <lcuk> In 1977, Forrest M. Mims reminds us in one of his "Engineer's Notebooks" that LEDs can also be used as photodiodes...
Jun 22 11:16:51 <AStorm> lcuk: the problem is... how do you detect the distance from the screen?
Jun 22 11:16:51 <rm_you> yeah
Jun 22 11:16:58 <lcuk> you dont - its touch
Jun 22 11:17:05 <AStorm> lcuk: no, it's not
Jun 22 11:17:09 <AStorm> it's reflected light
Jun 22 11:17:11 <glass> it's shadow
Jun 22 11:17:21 <AStorm> glass: or shadow, yes, depends
Jun 22 11:17:21 <glass> so.. need good ambient light
Jun 22 11:17:30 <AStorm> glass: these are actually reflected light
Jun 22 11:17:33 <glass> ah
Jun 22 11:17:35 <glass> from the led itself?
Jun 22 11:17:49 <AStorm> no, from the 1000W light source behind them? ;)
Jun 22 11:17:53 <AStorm> sure
Jun 22 11:18:02 <AStorm> from the led
Jun 22 11:18:09 <lcuk> or others or the backlight - and something astorm just said, IR light - put that in with the backlight and use that
Jun 22 11:18:17 <AStorm> I'm positive the effect isn't sensitive enough
Jun 22 11:18:27 <AStorm> plain physics tells you :)
Jun 22 11:18:28 <lcuk> its being worked on though :)
Jun 22 11:18:33 <AStorm> or you'll get a lot of noise
Jun 22 11:18:36 <sven-tek> perhaps you can modulate some frequency on the rgb light, so the sensor can distinguish the signal
Jun 22 11:18:38 <glass> thats neat then, but dunno how workable as anything else than touchpad(without screen)
Jun 22 11:18:54 <AStorm> glass: think OLED
Jun 22 11:19:06 <AStorm> shrink the leds down, make a screen that reacts to touch
Jun 22 11:19:14 <AStorm> fairly workable
Jun 22 11:19:24 <AStorm> you could even apply this to any screen
Jun 22 11:19:30 <AStorm> using transparent photodiodes
Jun 22 11:19:37 * AStorm goes to file the patent ;P
Jun 22 11:19:44 <lcuk> yes astorm, RGB+input per pixel
Jun 22 11:20:09 <AStorm> I suspect it won't work anyway ;P
Jun 22 11:21:07 <AStorm> the resolution can be 1/3 of the screens
Jun 22 11:21:09 <AStorm> or even less
Jun 22 11:21:18 <AStorm> just how much you want
Jun 22 11:21:30 <lcuk> why 1/3?   1 sensor per pixel
Jun 22 11:21:45 <AStorm> what for?
Jun 22 11:21:50 <AStorm> that would be expensive
Jun 22 11:22:06 <AStorm> and touch isn't that precise
Jun 22 11:22:07 <lcuk> why expensive, its part of the same fab process as the lcd panel itself
Jun 22 11:22:14 <AStorm> you need about 1/2 the size of the stylus
Jun 22 11:22:27 <lcuk> touch is normally MORE precise - on this device its got something like... umm lemme look it up
Jun 22 11:23:04 <AStorm> no, it's not
Jun 22 11:23:08 <AStorm> it won't ever be
Jun 22 11:23:26 <AStorm> you can't touch with pixel precision anyway
Jun 22 11:23:57 <lcuk> 3585 pixels X,   3195 pixels Y
Jun 22 11:24:13 <lcuk> the sensor is VERY capable on our nokias and we have to downsample
Jun 22 11:24:20 <lcuk> this is common in touch displays
Jun 22 11:24:39 <AStorm> yes
Jun 22 11:24:47 <AStorm> but anyway, what's the diff?
Jun 22 11:24:56 <AStorm> what is the accuracy for?
Jun 22 11:25:26 <lcuk> because its free :)
Jun 22 11:25:47 <AStorm> blah, but not in the CCD design
Jun 22 11:26:07 <lcuk> and the touch display people have standard tech that can handle resolutions which have gone beyond LCDs.  the panel people dont know what LCD its going to be used with
Jun 22 11:26:24 <lcuk> no, the ccd design would use 1 sensor per pixel
Jun 22 11:26:38 <AStorm> no
Jun 22 11:26:40 <lcuk> no alignment issues or drifting and always at the correct resolution
Jun 22 11:26:42 <AStorm> that's expensive
Jun 22 11:26:44 <AStorm> it can use less
Jun 22 11:27:00 <AStorm> note, 800x480 sensor is fairly expensie
Jun 22 11:27:07 <AStorm> such sensors are used in scanners
Jun 22 11:27:18 <AStorm> cost is like, 50$/unit
Jun 22 11:27:26 <lcuk> but it will be made with the same fab process as current LCD boards, why would it be more expensive
Jun 22 11:27:38 <AStorm> because the materials are
Jun 22 11:27:49 <lcuk> ? the same materials
Jun 22 11:27:53 <AStorm> and it has to be transparent CCD, increasing the cost
Jun 22 11:27:53 <lbt> hi - I'm having a problem with the latest sdk+ using sb2... ERROR: ld.so: object 'libsb2.so.1' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.
Jun 22 11:28:00 <lbt> anyone know anything? :)
Jun 22 11:28:05 <AStorm> lcuk: seen any 800x480 OLED LCD lately?
Jun 22 11:28:10 <AStorm> color?
Jun 22 11:28:16 <AStorm> that small?
Jun 22 11:28:17 <lcuk> im not thinking oled - im thinking lcd
Jun 22 11:28:27 <AStorm> OLED is cheaper LCD
Jun 22 11:28:29 <lcuk> just like we currently have - oled is still not workable
Jun 22 11:28:37 <AStorm> normal LCD would be uberexpensive at these sizes
Jun 22 11:28:52 <lcuk> the lcd i have in front of me is 19" and very cheap
Jun 22 11:28:52 <AStorm> and very hard to produce
Jun 22 11:29:00 <AStorm> and what's the dot size?
Jun 22 11:29:03 <AStorm> :)
Jun 22 11:29:09 <AStorm> wait, wait
Jun 22 11:29:14 <lcuk> not 225dpi, but i have a 4" one here
Jun 22 11:29:16 <AStorm> LCD... no, that's diff tech than CCD
Jun 22 11:29:17 <AStorm> sorry
Jun 22 11:29:27 <AStorm> CCDs are diodes
Jun 22 11:29:35 <lcuk> LEDs are diodes as well
Jun 22 11:29:38 <AStorm> CMOS light sensors are cheaper, but less sensitive
Jun 22 11:29:43 <AStorm> LEDs are expensive :)
Jun 22 11:30:19 <AStorm> LCDs are cheap in comparison
Jun 22 11:30:40 <AStorm> actually, a capacitive screen could use similar tech to LCDs
Jun 22 11:30:48 <AStorm> just have a coat of transparent transistors
Jun 22 11:31:52 <AStorm> anyway, really, CCD touch sensor will be expensive
Jun 22 11:31:58 <AStorm> and hard to mass produce
Jun 22 11:32:06 <AStorm> unless OLEDs get cheap and available
Jun 22 11:32:34 <lcuk> which is something all the related companies are working towards
Jun 22 11:32:37 <AStorm> :)
Jun 22 11:32:57 <AStorm> yes, for oled screen, traditional touch sensors won't work good
Jun 22 11:33:07 <lcuk> ccd is not hard to mass produce - just look at how much of the world is covered by a ccd right now
Jun 22 11:33:26 <AStorm> it is at large sizes and resolutions
Jun 22 11:33:38 <AStorm> you need a fairly large CCD matrix (not of too high res though)
Jun 22 11:33:50 <lcuk> do you think they fab these things in tiny chip sized sections? they make entire sheets of the things like cpus
Jun 22 11:34:10 <AStorm> they do make these things in sheets, but
Jun 22 11:34:19 <AStorm> they're made using the same tech as CPUs
Jun 22 11:34:27 <AStorm> esp. CMOS sensors
Jun 22 11:34:34 <AStorm> (CCDs are different technology)
Jun 22 11:34:43 <AStorm> (but related)
Jun 22 11:34:53 <AStorm> problem will be scaling the sensor up
Jun 22 11:34:58 <AStorm> and making it transparent
Jun 22 11:35:10 <AStorm> w/o OLED which could react to light
Jun 22 11:35:54 <lcuk> why make it transparent? the aim is to sit it amongst the light generating voxels not infront of
Jun 22 11:36:50 <AStorm> then you have to make it tinier
Jun 22 11:36:59 <AStorm> and have light focus on it somehow
Jun 22 11:37:14 <AStorm> = add microlenses?
Jun 22 11:37:15 <lcuk> what? like 12megapixel in a tiny 5mm^2 area?
Jun 22 11:37:19 <AStorm> no
Jun 22 11:37:39 <AStorm> see, you need a lens t have enough light to focus on that tiny sensor
Jun 22 11:38:07 <AStorm> it's easier to make a big one and transparent
Jun 22 11:38:31 <AStorm> hopefully sensitive enough
Jun 22 11:40:08 <lcuk> not really, sensitivity depends upon refresh rate, slow refresh == more light, its been the same and theres lots of camera engineers around who work magic in signal processing around the world to make it work
Jun 22 11:40:18 <AStorm> not really
Jun 22 11:40:27 <AStorm> you need it to have high bit depth
Jun 22 11:40:27 <lcuk> anyway, like i said originally, im still waiting but my tummy is rumbling so im grabbing breakfast
Jun 22 11:40:29 <AStorm> at least 4-bit
Jun 22 11:40:31 <AStorm> :)
Jun 22 11:40:37 <AStorm> and low noise
Jun 22 11:40:46 <lcuk> bit depth comes from the a2d converter
Jun 22 11:40:47 <AStorm> sensitivity is related to amount of light
Jun 22 11:41:00 <AStorm> needed to excite the transistor or diode
Jun 22 11:41:05 <AStorm> not to speed
Jun 22 11:41:22 <AStorm> lcuk: yes and no, there's always some floor :)
Jun 22 11:41:34 <AStorm> and these are all quantum effects too
Jun 22 11:41:51 <lbt> hi - I'm having a problem with the latest sdk+ using sb2... ERROR: ld.so: object 'libsb2.so.1' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.
Jun 22 11:41:57 <lbt> anyone know anything? :)
Jun 22 11:42:05 <AStorm> not me :P
Jun 22 11:42:11 <lbt> guessed not :)
Jun 22 11:42:37 <lcuk> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=ERROR%3A+ld.so%3A+object+%27libsb2.so.1%27&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
Jun 22 11:42:54 <lcuk> lbt, try those people mention the same, but i dont use sb2 (or sb1) so dunno
Jun 22 11:43:10 <lbt> Oh, if I change LD_PRELOAD I can get different effects.
Jun 22 11:43:24 <lbt> basically it looks like it's simulating some kind of overlay fs
Jun 22 11:44:06 <lbt> it does also differ with suid commands too (eg mount)
Jun 22 11:46:14 <lbt> oh, btw, lcuk - I asked on -dev a while back.... are you making the code for your scrolling notes thingy available (david greaves here - gtk rotation/finger scrolling etc)
Jun 22 11:50:25 <rm_you> lbt: I keep poking him about that as well... it would be awesome if he would just GPL it, but it looks like we may get a QT style dual license at best
Jun 22 11:50:36 <rm_you> lbt: and he doesn't seem to be in any sort of hurry <_<
Jun 22 11:52:09 <lbt> rm_you: fair enough, each to their own :)
Jun 22 12:01:10 <rm_you> lbt: dunno... i almost feel personally insulted now when people release closed source software <_<
Jun 22 12:01:29 <rm_you> at least, for personal projects
Jun 22 12:04:35 <lcuk> im not releasing yet because thats not a personal priority - i would have to do a lot more work towards packaging and actual software finalization than just me relearning c
Jun 22 12:05:12 <lbt> that's not really true
Jun 22 12:05:25 <lcuk> why not?
Jun 22 12:05:26 <lbt> you can literally just post up the code
Jun 22 12:05:50 <lbt> I agree that end users won't be able to use it
Jun 22 12:05:55 <lbt> but other devs can
Jun 22 12:06:01 <Jaffa> if it's interesting enough, people will help you improve the build process etc.
Jun 22 12:06:10 <lbt> and some of them/us are good at packaging/docs etc
Jun 22 12:07:27 <Jaffa> Oh, I like michael's bubbles logo designs.
Jun 22 12:07:29 <lbt> if you don't want to release then you don't have too - seriously; to each their own.... OTOH
Jun 22 12:07:58 <lbt> if you aren't releasing code because 'people might not like it' or "it's messy"
Jun 22 12:08:01 <lcuk> i know those are the immense positive aspects of release, but im not even sure what i want to do with the code (there is more than just this device) and keep looking for something which allows best of both
Jun 22 12:09:02 <lbt> Are you thinking of doing a proprietary app?
Jun 22 12:09:35 <lcuk> not specifically for this platform, but im thinking more than just maemo
Jun 22 12:09:45 <lbt> ah, so multiple device support?
Jun 22 12:09:59 <lbt> some open, some proprietary?
Jun 22 12:10:17 <lcuk> thats a long time in the future but if i release now and accept code modifications it prevents me doing things in future in closed environments
Jun 22 12:10:30 <lbt> Not necessarily
Jun 22 12:10:52 <lbt> You need a copyright assignment
Jun 22 12:11:09 <lbt> which may limit contributors
Jun 22 12:11:41 <lcuk> but i keep swaying
Jun 22 12:11:49 * lcuk flipflops constantly on this
Jun 22 12:12:12 <lcuk> i got as far as putting gpl headers on all the files and going to the garage upload the other day..
Jun 22 12:12:26 <lcuk> but then bottled it
Jun 22 12:12:29 <lbt> :)
Jun 22 12:13:21 <lbt> Until you accept your first change then you really don't have a future problem - you fully own the code you wrote and you don't have to continue to release changes
Jun 22 12:13:23 <lbt> however
Jun 22 12:13:40 <lbt> any code you release will always be available under the GPL.
Jun 22 12:13:57 <lbt> so there's no taking back (of the initial version anyhow)
Jun 22 12:14:09 <lbt> But
Jun 22 12:14:12 <lcuk> thats actually ok i understand that
Jun 22 12:14:28 <lbt> OK - never sure if people get the implications
Jun 22 12:14:50 <lbt> I've no idea what you know - and it sounds like you're not an old hand at GPL...
Jun 22 12:15:14 <lcuk> im not, but ive spent long enough observing from the sidelines
Jun 22 12:15:15 <lbt> was just going to add that no-one can take the gpl version and compete commercially
Jun 22 12:15:37 <lcuk> yes they can, but they are under the same rules
Jun 22 12:16:12 <lcuk> thats also not a consideration, its getting caught supporting a feature which was transitory
Jun 22 12:16:14 <lbt> well, by commercially, I meant they can't take your GPL-released code and sell it as a closed app
Jun 22 12:16:40 <lcuk> sure they can (at least until we catch them)
Jun 22 12:16:45 <lbt> Hah :)
Jun 22 12:17:14 <lcuk> david, do you have a vid of your gtk stuff?
Jun 22 12:17:22 <lbt> gosh no!!
Jun 22 12:17:30 <lbt> I'm just writing a noddy shopping list :)
Jun 22 12:17:38 <lcuk> released it yet?
Jun 22 12:17:44 <lbt> no
Jun 22 12:17:48 <lcuk> :D heh
Jun 22 12:17:57 <lbt> but if you want the code I'll email it to you
Jun 22 12:18:02 <lbt> it's in a git repository
Jun 22 12:18:38 <lcuk> what im actually thinking is putting all the base code out there to the graphics library and books part and seeing what people can do with it but just holding back on my graffiti app (which is looking better and better everyday)
Jun 22 12:19:20 <lcuk> if we can get people used to working with rapid applications on maemo maybe the future for other things will be rosey
Jun 22 12:19:26 <lbt> hey, that's cool... maybe you could throw up a simple app to get people started though?
Jun 22 12:19:42 <lbt> Seriously I was looking at the base library as a launcher...
Jun 22 12:19:52 <lbt> together with finger scrolling
Jun 22 12:20:26 <lcuk> yer exactly - mini library for setting up and drawing to the screen with the text reader thing and a few of the other modules ive made - and then i can carry on with whats important to me and just link to the latest bit of a lib that can be expanded upon by anyone
Jun 22 12:20:30 <lbt> and I wondered it could be made to scale in a non linear way which gives a 'lensing' appearance
Jun 22 12:20:41 <lcuk> and ill forever use the lgpl lib in whatever i need :)
Jun 22 12:21:17 <lbt> gotta go for a bit (wife had an op on friday and needs some tlc... + a cup of tea) back l8r
Jun 22 12:21:26 <lcuk> scaling is easy, before i had the graffiti wall i had the sketches all scaling in response to user touch
Jun 22 12:21:36 <lcuk> alright lbt :) nice to chat
Jun 22 12:22:24 <lcuk> who wants to do this VB work for me whilst i cleanse the code to release? ;)
Jun 22 12:22:48 <aquatix> VB?!
Jun 22 12:23:20 <lcuk> yer aquatix my alter ego is a visual basic developer..
Jun 22 12:23:26 <aquatix> eek
Jun 22 12:23:38 <lcuk> its served me well since my amiga died, but its always felt like methadone
Jun 22 12:23:57 <aquatix> well, i'm a sinner too
Jun 22 12:24:01 <aquatix> i program php ;)
Jun 22 12:24:13 <lcuk> lol am i meant to look up or down on you?
Jun 22 12:24:26 <aquatix> but that was as hobby
Jun 22 12:24:33 <aquatix> moving on to python and such :)
Jun 22 12:27:05 <rm_you> heh
Jun 22 12:27:07 <rm_you> I do VB for work :P
Jun 22 12:27:15 <rm_you> its icky, but I get paid for it :)
Jun 22 12:27:17 * aquatix did java for work for years
Jun 22 12:27:25 * rm_you would love to do Java for work <_<
Jun 22 12:27:36 <rm_you> Java is a language I can actually DO things in
Jun 22 12:27:54 <aquatix> ghehe
Jun 22 12:28:10 <rm_you> I hate C so much
Jun 22 12:28:20 <rm_you> and the more I use it and get used to it, the more I hate it
Jun 22 12:28:22 <lcuk> can do anything in vb that i can do in any other language
Jun 22 12:28:38 <rm_you> lcuk: besides be cross-platform compatible <_<
Jun 22 12:28:45 <lcuk> and its got runtime type information so i can do more than i can do with c
Jun 22 12:28:52 <rm_you> unless you're in .NET and make sure you only use libs that work in Mono
Jun 22 12:28:59 <lcuk> up until 6 months ago that wasnt a consideration
Jun 22 12:29:10 <aquatix> lcuk: i absolutely positively hate the VB syntax
Jun 22 12:29:15 * lcuk spits on .net and then throws it into the bin
Jun 22 12:29:28 <rm_you> I thought .net was supposed to be cool :/
Jun 22 12:29:32 <aquatix> and VBA is even worse
Jun 22 12:29:37 <lcuk> some people say the same about french, but its still used as a language
Jun 22 12:29:46 <rm_you> all my windoze fanboi friends go on about how awesome it is
Jun 22 12:30:16 * aquatix preferred delphi
Jun 22 12:30:32 <rm_you> and i go on about how blind they are for worshiping the mighty Gates, so whatev :P
Jun 22 12:30:37 <lcuk> they go on about how awesome it is until they come across one of the many bugs in the interface
Jun 22 12:30:44 <rm_you> nah
Jun 22 12:30:50 <rm_you> they prolly thing they're features
Jun 22 12:30:52 <rm_you> *think
Jun 22 12:31:02 <lcuk> 5 minute delays here or there, strange little bugs which you cannot cure
Jun 22 12:31:08 <rm_you> damn windoze fanboiz
Jun 22 12:31:24 <rm_you> s/windoze/micro$oft/
Jun 22 12:31:24 <infobot> rm_you meant: damn micro$oft fanboiz
Jun 22 12:31:37 <aquatix> rm_you: yeah, never could wrap my head around that concept
Jun 22 12:32:06 <rm_you> they try to make me jealous of their MSDN subscriptions
Jun 22 12:32:12 <aquatix> hahahahaha
Jun 22 12:32:13 <lcuk> rm_you, do your friends write large projects in .net?
Jun 22 12:32:31 <rm_you> and then i remind them I would rather shoot myself than run any of the software in there
Jun 22 12:32:49 <lcuk> MSDN and the whole .net documentation took a massive step backwards - it used to be that i could press f1 and get proper context sensitive help
Jun 22 12:32:49 <rm_you> lcuk: no, they spend most of their time being bill gates wannabes
Jun 22 12:33:24 <rm_you> fortunately I can only think of two of them
Jun 22 12:33:47 <rm_you> I do also have sane friends :)
Jun 22 12:33:56 <rm_you> like johnx!
Jun 22 12:33:59 * rm_you misses johnx
Jun 22 12:34:07 * lcuk chose to rejoin his c roots rather than work in .shit
Jun 22 12:34:33 <rm_you> <lcuk> i got as far as putting gpl headers on all the files and going to the garage upload the other day..
Jun 22 12:34:34 <rm_you> >_<
Jun 22 12:34:36 <lcuk> and now im slowly working through 8 years of code tested in vb and porting it to c
Jun 22 12:34:42 <lcuk> ;)
Jun 22 12:35:33 <rm_you> it's this easy... create garage project... svn checkout... copy all of your source in... svn add *; svn commit
Jun 22 12:35:34 <rm_you> done :P
Jun 22 12:37:19 <lcuk> not really, what about the code i dont want to post
Jun 22 12:37:36 <rm_you> post that too? :P
Jun 22 12:37:41 <rm_you> what don't you want to post?
Jun 22 12:38:24 <rm_you> oh, and I'm still down for helping get your ebook reader thing displaying pdfs :P
Jun 22 12:38:49 <lcuk> now that would be worthwhile :)
Jun 22 12:38:54 <rm_you> yeah
Jun 22 12:38:58 <rm_you> so release your code :P
Jun 22 12:39:07 <lcuk> and that doesnt intefere with the other side of what i want to do
Jun 22 12:39:10 * rm_you has been waiting for at least a week
Jun 22 12:39:31 <lcuk> but ive got a metric shitload of code to write today thats not c
Jun 22 12:39:36 <rm_you> >_>
Jun 22 12:40:02 <lcuk> since lastweek you realised its been your lifelong ambition to write a pdf reader ..
Jun 22 12:40:12 <rm_you> lcuk: it took me a little bit to get used to "release early, often"....
Jun 22 12:40:15 <rm_you> so get used to it
Jun 22 12:40:16 <rm_you> :P
Jun 22 12:40:36 <rm_you> not life ambition... month's ambition
Jun 22 12:41:58 * lcuk thinks life was easier back in the day.  source didnt matter
Jun 22 12:42:39 <rm_you> back when people were willing to accept sub-optimal software because they had no other choice? >_>
Jun 22 12:42:57 * rm_you doesn't miss that
Jun 22 12:43:02 <lcuk> i dont think apples software is suboptimal
Jun 22 12:43:12 <lcuk> wheres the code for most of that?
Jun 22 12:43:23 <rm_you> ooooooooooooo
Jun 22 12:43:26 <lcuk> or photoshops?
Jun 22 12:43:27 <rm_you> do NOT get me started on Apple
Jun 22 12:43:46 <lcuk> or any one of thousands of software products in use worldwide right now
Jun 22 12:43:49 <rm_you> photoshop is great... but locked to windoze and mac, when it could easily be cross-platform
Jun 22 12:43:53 <lcuk> autocad?
Jun 22 12:43:54 <rm_you> Mac is already halfway there
Jun 22 12:44:06 <rm_you> same with autocad
Jun 22 12:44:37 <lcuk> why should any of these companies open up the code, it does not get them anywhere just yet
Jun 22 12:45:29 <rm_you> not saying THEY should, just pointing out how the software has problems that people who care (like me and many others) could work on and fix
Jun 22 12:46:24 <rm_you> are you planning to use this application to make a living? >_>
Jun 22 12:46:25 <lcuk> i agree entirely, but (lets look closer to home) do nokia listen and update and change and fix their software?
Jun 22 12:46:38 <rm_you> not really
Jun 22 12:46:44 <rm_you> at least, not enough
Jun 22 12:46:54 <rm_you> I thoroughly believe all of ITOS should be open
Jun 22 12:47:09 <rm_you> ITOS isn't what they're profiting from anyway, they sell the hardware
Jun 22 12:47:19 <rm_you> so what is the point of keeping the software closed? >_>
Jun 22 12:48:00 <rm_you> if people can improve the software, thereby making their hardware more desirable, wouldn't that put them in a better position?
Jun 22 12:48:28 <rm_you> it irks me DAILY that so much of their code is still closed :/
Jun 22 12:49:04 <lcuk> thats because you are usign a feature that is closed (for whatever stupid reason)
Jun 22 12:49:07 <rm_you> s/DAILY/HOURLY/
Jun 22 12:49:07 <infobot> rm_you meant: it irks me HOURLY that so much of their code is still closed :/
Jun 22 12:49:36 <rm_you> s/DAILY/CONSTANTLY/
Jun 22 12:49:37 <infobot> rm_you meant: it irks me CONSTANTLY that so much of their code is still closed :/
Jun 22 12:50:34 <rm_you> it would still be aggrivating, though admittedly not quite as immediately so, if the closed code in question weren't directly impeding the development of my own app, yes
Jun 22 12:50:53 <rm_you> wow, that was a very long and horribly structured sentence
Jun 22 12:52:46 <lcuk> you are replicating functionality which has been chosen to be closed, im more frustrated by lack of binary
Jun 22 12:53:47 <lcuk> if i were rewriting autocad i could not expect nor push for the source for it because i know its closed
Jun 22 12:54:02 <lcuk> but that would not exactly prevent me from making a cad program
Jun 22 12:54:50 <rm_you> it would if the cad program had to interface with a cad server somewhere due to hardware constraints, and that server was also closed source >_<
Jun 22 12:57:04 <lcuk> but if the interface was documented would it matter about the source?
Jun 22 12:57:33 <rm_you> yes, if there were features you needed that didn't exist in the server and you needed to add them :)
Jun 22 12:57:34 <lcuk> (like you have all the interface specs for dmse and gtk and everything)
Jun 22 12:57:43 <rm_you> pft
Jun 22 12:57:51 <rm_you> the specs we have for dsme are useless
Jun 22 12:58:12 <rm_you> and for the Hildon GTK stuff
Jun 22 12:58:19 <lcuk> then you would be making a none standard server which the original program couldnt use
Jun 22 12:58:23 <rm_you> a bunch of the Hildon docs are just blank
Jun 22 12:58:45 <rm_you> just additional functionality, totally backwards compatible :P
Jun 22 12:59:06 <lcuk> in a critical environment can you guarantee that?
Jun 22 12:59:13 <rm_you> like adding the ability to manually disable the light sensor dimming, or to change the "dimmed" light level
Jun 22 12:59:17 <rm_you> yes
Jun 22 12:59:26 <rm_you> extra options that aren't utilized will not interfere
Jun 22 12:59:36 <rm_you> it's done with all manner of projects
Jun 22 12:59:47 <lcuk> are you sure, the levels might be fixed in hardware and without being a fully trained engineer may end up shorting something out and setting fire to your pocket
Jun 22 12:59:56 <rm_you> you only run into problems if you REMOVE functionality, or change existing functions
Jun 22 12:59:56 <lcuk> its the same with the battery charging stuff people keep talking about
Jun 22 13:00:17 <rm_you> it's most definitely in software >_>
Jun 22 13:00:33 <rm_you> if the source was open i could prove it :P
Jun 22 13:00:45 <rm_you> and if it was in hardware, the source would prove that too
Jun 22 13:00:50 <lcuk> what i mean is the limits to the software might be there because communication with the hardware people let them know those limits
Jun 22 13:00:56 <rm_you> so i would know not to mess with it
Jun 22 13:01:58 <lcuk> what if those limits change iwth different hardware revisions (new supplier etc) could you be certain the software supplied by you fits all
Jun 22 13:02:02 <rm_you> i'll assume we're talking theoretically?
Jun 22 13:02:07 <lcuk> of course
Jun 22 13:02:10 <rm_you> because I *know* it's in software :P
Jun 22 13:03:00 <lcuk> yes, just like its possible in software to set various things which screw up the display scanlines and stuff - its entirely possible with your software to render the device unusable
Jun 22 13:03:09 <rm_you> if it didn't work with all hardware, then any good maintainer would reject those patches
Jun 22 13:03:36 <lcuk> do you have hardware for all revisions of n8x0?
Jun 22 13:03:51 <rm_you> i *know* it's in software, because fanoush's custom kernels let us bypass DSME for that stuff and do it manually :)
Jun 22 13:04:10 <rm_you> no, but before I release I make sure it has been tested on all of the hardware :)
Jun 22 13:04:41 <lcuk> but nokia have not sanctioned any of those - a user has to change their kernel to do so - which an average joe would do about as often as they replace windows with linux
Jun 22 13:04:48 <rm_you> right
Jun 22 13:05:02 <rm_you> which is why one upstream patch to DSME would be a much better solution
Jun 22 13:05:14 <rm_you> which is why i want the source open in the first place :P
Jun 22 13:05:44 <lcuk> but you have the dmse flags to set, however you write your interface is up to you surely?
Jun 22 13:05:56 <rm_you> not enough
Jun 22 13:06:03 <rm_you> DSME doesn't support setting custom dim levels
Jun 22 13:06:13 <rm_you> or turning off the lightmeter dimming
Jun 22 13:06:24 <rm_you> but those flags would be easily addable
Jun 22 13:06:28 <rm_you> if the source were open
Jun 22 13:06:35 <rm_you> they just didn
Jun 22 13:06:48 <rm_you> they just didn't include the proper controls in the dsme interface
Jun 22 13:07:59 <rm_you> http://pastebin.org/45350
Jun 22 13:08:12 <rm_you> can change the dim timeout, but not what the dim brightness level is
Jun 22 13:08:24 <rm_you> and no way to deal at all with the light sensor dimming
Jun 22 13:10:06 <rm_you> and I know for a fact that DSME is handling those things, there just isn't a provided interface for it, because Nokia didn't think to add one, and I can't do it for them because the source is closed....
Jun 22 13:10:08 <lcuk> whats the datestamp on that dmsetest?
Jun 22 13:10:10 <rm_you> all i need is --dimlevel
Jun 22 13:10:23 <lcuk> is it possible they just havent yet released a later version which does
Jun 22 13:10:36 <lcuk> that talks about the cover state - 770 only?
Jun 22 13:10:51 <rm_you> this is on my n800
Jun 22 13:10:58 <rm_you> and is exactly the same on n810, as it is part of os2008
Jun 22 13:11:02 <lcuk> which doesnt have a sensor?
Jun 22 13:11:04 <rm_you> datestamp is dec 7, 2007
Jun 22 13:11:22 <rm_you> get the output from n810, is exactly the same
Jun 22 13:11:45 <rm_you> and dim level should be available on anything, even back to 770
Jun 22 13:11:46 <lcuk> i believe you :)
Jun 22 13:11:59 <rm_you> you see my frustration? >_>
Jun 22 13:12:07 <rm_you> if they gave me the source I could have it fixed inside the day
Jun 22 13:12:24 <lcuk> so its the dmse code you want, not the backlight applet
Jun 22 13:12:37 <rm_you> I want the backlight applet for a different reason
Jun 22 13:12:40 <lcuk> the same dmse code which does all the talking directly to hardware
Jun 22 13:13:04 <lcuk> you want to know how they do the fancy widget inside menu thing that you keep asking about
Jun 22 13:13:04 <rm_you> the backlight applet contains code that somehow massages some very strange widgets into a GtkMenu >_<
Jun 22 13:13:30 <lcuk> are you sure its a gtkmenu?
Jun 22 13:13:47 <rm_you> not 100%...
Jun 22 13:13:56 <rm_you> see: http://wiki.maemo.org/Rm_you
Jun 22 13:14:04 <rm_you> "IRC with Timeless concerning GTK stuff with the sound applet:"
Jun 22 13:15:51 <lcuk> so they created their own custom menu item which essentially subclasses the basic menu item (or at least implements its interface)
Jun 22 13:15:59 <rm_you> as you can see, I got lost fairly quickly in that conversation
Jun 22 13:16:21 <rm_you> I think they rewrote the entire gtkmenu system
Jun 22 13:16:26 <rm_you> like, their own version
Jun 22 13:16:34 <rm_you> I started working on that myself
Jun 22 13:16:38 <lcuk> yer its common with lots of systems
Jun 22 13:16:40 <rm_you> but i don't know nearly enough about GTK
Jun 22 13:16:44 <rm_you> I
Jun 22 13:16:48 <jott> rm_you: the important part is the "hildon-status-bar-popup" that what i also traced when i tried to find out how to get a slider in a sb applet..
Jun 22 13:16:58 <rm_you> I'll give you $20 if you make it work :P
Jun 22 13:17:10 <rm_you> jott: i'm already using that kind of container
Jun 22 13:17:36 <rm_you> just can't get it to look/behave like the other applets
Jun 22 13:17:55 <lcuk> rm_you, perhaps you may need to sidetrack away from maemo.  have you tried looking around to see if people made active menus using gtk anywhere else
Jun 22 13:18:06 <rm_you> yes
Jun 22 13:18:15 <lcuk> and do you know of any
Jun 22 13:18:15 <rm_you> and asked in #gtk+ a lot
Jun 22 13:18:19 <rm_you> nope
Jun 22 13:18:37 <rm_you> as I told timeless, people in #gtk+ told me it would require a gigantic hack
Jun 22 13:18:41 <jott> the gtk menu stuff has basically to be replicated afaiu...
Jun 22 13:18:52 <rm_you> yeah
Jun 22 13:18:56 <lcuk> require a hack, but not gigantic
Jun 22 13:18:56 <rm_you> pretty much completely
Jun 22 13:19:08 <rm_you> completely replacing GtkMenu? >_>
Jun 22 13:19:15 <lcuk> menuitem?
Jun 22 13:19:20 <rm_you> GtkMenu.
Jun 22 13:19:27 <jott> i wonder if it's an lgpl violation on nokias side :)
Jun 22 13:19:31 <rm_you> I started with just menuitem
Jun 22 13:19:41 <lcuk> jott, doubt it if they have reimplimented it
Jun 22 13:19:44 <rm_you> jott: well, unless they open their code we can't prove it :P
Jun 22 13:19:52 * Stskeeps ponders idly if gnustep would be nice on a tablet
Jun 22 13:20:01 <jott> rm_you: well there are ways to prove it without the source :)
Jun 22 13:20:15 <jott> lcuk: well when they derived their implementation from the gtkmenu one.....
Jun 22 13:20:17 <AStorm> Stskeeps: nope
Jun 22 13:20:22 <rm_you> heh, that would be convenient :P
Jun 22 13:20:29 <rm_you> well, anyway, i really need to sleep
Jun 22 13:20:32 <Stskeeps> AStorm: too many right clicks is my primary concern :P
Jun 22 13:20:33 <AStorm> gnustep is ugly regardless of input devices available to it
Jun 22 13:20:37 <Stskeeps> meh
Jun 22 13:20:38 <Stskeeps> :P
Jun 22 13:20:38 <lcuk> they used the same interface - its only a user control
Jun 22 13:20:47 <AStorm> Stskeeps: I'd love modified awesome 3 on the tablet
Jun 22 13:20:50 <lcuk> ok rm_you :) gnite
Jun 22 13:20:55 <jott> rm_you: night :)
Jun 22 13:21:01 <AStorm> adapt it to work better with pens
Jun 22 13:21:05 <rm_you> BUT, as a standing offer, I will give $20 to any person that submits a patch to advanced-backlight that makes it look and behave like all of the other applets
Jun 22 13:21:39 <rm_you> working on getting more to that bounty, but i'm poor at the moment :)
Jun 22 13:22:08 <lcuk> rm_you, before you sleep - one thing, there is an option menu which has ticks etc - if the code is open then perhaps you should look at how that differs from a normal menu item
Jun 22 13:22:10 <jott> lcuk: if they gone to gtkmenu.c and took some parts of it and put it in their (closed) implementation that would be a (l)gpl violation
Jun 22 13:22:32 <Stskeeps> AStorm: isn't it sortof keyboard-centric or is it actually navigatable with mouse?
Jun 22 13:22:43 <lcuk> once you know how its different then you could possibly adapt to put a whole scrollbar in
Jun 22 13:22:50 <rm_you> lcuk: which is that>
Jun 22 13:23:03 <AStorm> Stskeeps: working on improving mouse capabilities of it
Jun 22 13:23:16 <rm_you> i have been looking for 6 months for a program like that
Jun 22 13:23:24 <lcuk> im not sure, but doesnt gtk have proper tick menus like any other menuing system?
Jun 22 13:23:50 <rm_you> oh... yeah, that may just be built in as a type
Jun 22 13:25:01 <jott> lcuk: they are all gtkmenuitems, you could write your own gtkmenuitem but afaiu the event management hinders proper mouse click propagation
Jun 22 13:26:11 <jott> and apparently the #gtk folks did not know a simple solution either - so it's propbably not be THAT simple ;)
Jun 22 13:26:12 <lcuk> on windows i have a program called spy++ which allows me to see the window classes used created to make anything, is anything similar available for linux/gtk?
Jun 22 13:27:19 <jott> hm not reallly sure, probably only on the x11 layer...
Jun 22 13:27:37 <jott> hm g-inspector
Jun 22 13:28:08 <jott> but it's from 2005 :P
Jun 22 13:28:09 <lcuk> G-Inspector invokes a GTK+ application and inspects its objects. It shows widgets hierarchy, properties of widgets, etc. It can blink a specific widget instance so that you can identify it. It can handle Glib objects too.
Jun 22 13:28:33 <lcuk> age isnt important, good code is timeless
Jun 22 13:28:45 <rm_you> https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/gbounty/index.php?type=group&group_id=564&pluginname=gbounty
Jun 22 13:28:46 <rm_you> :P
Jun 22 13:29:08 <jott> lcuk: well depends on the compatiblity of gtk i suppose ;)
Jun 22 13:29:23 <rm_you> now, must sleep
Jun 22 13:29:26 <lcuk> jott, all that would be needed would be to run the correct nokia applet with ginspector in the way
Jun 22 13:29:42 <lcuk> "all"
Jun 22 13:29:45 <rm_you> >_>
Jun 22 13:29:49 <rm_you> ttyl
Jun 22 13:29:56 <jott> yeah might be worth a try to atleast see some basic inheritance ;)
Jun 22 13:29:56 <lcuk> gnite
Jun 22 13:30:02 <rm_you> lcuk: I hope to see some code posted :P
Jun 22 13:30:08 <jott> rm_you: bye
Jun 22 13:30:55 <jott> lcuk: i bet we end up in NokiaProprietaryWidget :)
Jun 22 13:31:10 <lcuk> :)
Jun 22 13:31:48 <rm_you> lcuk: just a note... as far as becoming locked into something because people are already using your program... release it with the standard "no warranty" clauses, and then tell people "tough luck, if i change stuff, you'll lose your work :P"
Jun 22 13:31:59 <rm_you> and i bet people would rather have that than nothing :) I know I would
Jun 22 13:32:10 * Jaffa decides to write his Hildon countdown timer app in Vala, do see what a Gtk+ high level, Java-like language is like.
Jun 22 13:32:42 * rm_you sleeps
Jun 22 13:33:33 <aquatix> sleep well
Jun 22 14:16:01 <lardman> GeneralAntilles: You about?
Jun 22 14:16:16 <lardman> GeneralAntilles: How do I edit the wiki?
Jun 22 14:19:19 <Jaffa> lardman: Log in, click "Edit" at the top of a page (on its little tab bar).
Jun 22 14:19:33 <Jaffa> lardman: see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing for syntax etc
Jun 22 14:19:34 <lardman> Jaffa: hmm, I thought I was logged in
Jun 22 14:19:53 <lardman> Jaffa: The old wiki always made me log in if I wasn't, is the new one different?
Jun 22 14:20:23 <Jaffa> Correct. Over https it'll let anyone edit. Over http - at the moment - anonymous edits are banned.
Jun 22 14:20:35 <Jaffa> lardman: If you're not logged in, your IP address is stored.
Jun 22 14:20:52 <Jaffa> lardman: See http://wiki.maemo.org/Meta:Anonymous_editing, and its Talk page
Jun 22 14:20:58 <lardman> ah ok
Jun 22 14:21:11 <lardman> I just thought I was logged in as it han't asked me to do so
Jun 22 14:21:17 <lardman> sorry :)
Jun 22 14:21:59 <timely> lcuk: eh?
Jun 22 14:28:48 <timely> Jaffa / lardman, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3275
Jun 22 14:28:50 <timely> i'm confused
Jun 22 14:28:56 <timely> i don't recall the urlbar ever hiding on its own
Jun 22 14:29:08 <timely> unless you manually said not to show it in normal/full screen
Jun 22 14:30:11 <lbt> funny that, I just replied to the mailing list saying that my machine does the same thing
Jun 22 14:30:41 <lbt> as in it shows the url box
Jun 22 14:30:50 <lardman> I thought it always just rescaled the window to fit in the gap left
Jun 22 14:31:00 <lardman> so the url bar would be there, etc.
Jun 22 14:32:20 <lbt> Hmm...
Jun 22 14:33:12 <lbt> OK, so if I start the browser, and then untick Menu->view->show toolbar->Normal screen
Jun 22 14:33:24 <lbt> I lose the toolbar (of course)
Jun 22 14:33:41 <lbt> then clicking into a text box does not cause it to reappear
Jun 22 14:34:17 <lbt> same for fullscreen...
Jun 22 14:36:12 <timely> so the reporter's just very confused, right?
Jun 22 14:36:34 <lbt> I think he's reporting a behaviour change between 2 versions
Jun 22 14:36:43 <timely> but what change?
Jun 22 14:36:49 <timely> afaik we've always behaved the same way
Jun 22 14:37:09 <timely> i'm not saying that what the reporter expects wouldn't be nice, however, it's not what we've ever done, and well.. i don't know what will come in the next version, but i think it's a new ui :)
Jun 22 14:37:10 <lbt> I guess he thinks that the toolbar used to 'autohide'
Jun 22 14:37:23 <lbt> when the keyboard pops up
Jun 22 14:37:31 <timely> afaik, it hasn't ever done that
Jun 22 14:38:23 <lbt> I'm new; only seen the current version
Jun 22 14:38:34 <timely> current==
Jun 22 14:38:34 <timely> ?
Jun 22 14:39:08 <lbt> err
Jun 22 14:39:12 <lbt> lemme see
Jun 22 14:39:56 <lbt> ii  osso-browser                                   2.1.3-1                            Meta-package for Browser aplication
Jun 22 14:40:03 <lbt> from dpkg-query
Jun 22 14:40:09 <timely> and the os release?
Jun 22 14:40:25 <lbt> Linux Nokia-N800-51-3 2.6.21-omap1 #14 Sat Mar 15 22:23:21 CET 2008 armv6l unknown
Jun 22 14:40:28 <lbt> hmm
Jun 22 14:40:37 <lbt> 2008 from the last 3 weeks...
Jun 22 14:40:53 <lbt> actually the kernel isn't standard anymore...
Jun 22 14:41:03 <lbt> how do I find out a useful value?
Jun 22 14:41:16 <timely> cat /etc/osso_software_release ?
Jun 22 14:41:43 <lbt> RX-34+RX-44_2008SE_2.2007.51-3_PR_MR0
Jun 22 14:41:58 <lbt> cat /etc/osso_software_version :)
Jun 22 14:44:18 <lbt> Anyhow, much earlier today I asked: I'm having a problem with the latest sdk+ using sb2... ERROR: ld.so: object 'libsb2.so.1' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.
Jun 22 14:44:27 <lbt> anyone around now know anything?
Jun 22 14:45:38 <Jaffa> timely: just experimenting now
Jun 22 14:45:51 <AStorm> lbt: is it n810?
Jun 22 14:45:56 <AStorm> does it have working DVFS?
Jun 22 14:46:12 <lbt> this is the sb2 dev environment on my desktop
Jun 22 14:46:21 <AStorm> blah
Jun 22 14:46:24 <lbt> It was working...
Jun 22 14:46:34 <lbt> then I tried to install the gtkmm stuff
Jun 22 14:46:54 <lbt> and ended up 'upgrading' to latest (3day old?) sdk+ release
Jun 22 14:47:10 <lbt> then it allows the gtkmm install and fails to run anything :(
Jun 22 14:47:43 <lbt> I think the LD_PRELOAD is managing an overlay filesystem type thingy
Jun 22 14:47:51 <lbt> badly... <grin>
Jun 22 14:48:17 <Jaffa> timely: I'm resolving it as INVALID as using the version he claims works properly, the same thing happens.\
Jun 22 14:49:14 <lopz> hi
Jun 22 14:49:47 <lbt> Jaffa: he does say in his email:
Jun 22 14:49:55 <lbt> Obviously I've managed to change a setting somewhere, but I can't work it out.
Jun 22 14:50:13 <lbt> just FYI - I think the bug report may just be badly worded...
Jun 22 14:50:43 <lbt> WORKSFORME and a request for more info may be better????
Jun 22 14:51:07 <Jaffa> lbt: The bug as described is invalid. But, hmm, maybe. Trouble is, no-one experienced in the platform ever experienced what he's describing AFAICT
Jun 22 14:51:46 <lbt> which indicates a bug?
Jun 22 14:53:20 <lbt> Actually - you're right.
Jun 22 14:53:55 * lbt slinks off to kick his sb2 somemore....
Jun 22 15:09:01 <lcuk> timeley eh at your eh?
Jun 22 15:09:16 <lcuk> -e
Jun 22 15:10:26 <lcuk> timely *
Jun 22 15:15:03 <timely> lcuk: you made a comment about age/code/timeless :)
Jun 22 15:15:06 * timely is timeless
Jun 22 15:15:17 <timely> Jaffa: thanks...
Jun 22 15:16:09 <timely> lbt: strace and ldd and things are your friends
Jun 22 15:16:24 <lcuk> :) did wonder what i'd done
Jun 22 15:19:34 <Jaffa> timely: no probs
Jun 22 15:20:01 <timely> fwiw you didn't mark it as invalid... i guess you got there too late :)
Jun 22 15:20:25 <Jaffa> Damn. I'd intended to, but thought it might've been marked as invalid when I clicked "Create a new attachment"
Jun 22 15:20:54 <timely> i suspect it was open before you clicked create attachment
Jun 22 15:20:59 <timely> but dead by the time you attached it
Jun 22 15:21:05 <timely> so you didn't notice
Jun 22 15:21:42 * timely killed it after testing a 770
Jun 22 15:21:48 <Jaffa> Fair enough. I'd written all the text, set the status then went "doh, haven't attached the screenshot"
Jun 22 15:22:12 <timely> yeah, your screen shot + comments were very good
Jun 22 15:22:16 * timely should have just left the bug alone
Jun 22 15:23:21 <timely> and you're absolutely right about breaking platform behaviors being bad :)
Jun 22 15:23:50 * timely goes to hunt volleyball
Jun 22 16:13:09 <qwerty12> Hmm, does the DNDEBUG cflag compile with debug code or remove debug code?
Jun 22 16:15:22 <summatusmentis> I don't know... DN would seem to suggest DO NOT, but I made that up
Jun 22 16:16:36 <qwerty12> Yeah, probably, I dunno, I'll use it anyway :P :)
Jun 22 16:17:51 <lcuk> qwerty12, if you compile with that flag, dave neary gets an email every time your program crashes
Jun 22 16:18:40 <qwerty12> Heh, best not compile with that then. Is that where my Nitro logs go too?
Jun 22 16:21:29 <lardman> qwerty12: look for NDEBUG define in the code
Jun 22 16:21:45 <lardman> the -D flag #DEFINEs whatever follows it
Jun 22 16:21:55 <qwerty12> Ah, ok, thank you, I'm looking now.
Jun 22 16:23:50 <lbt> I'm back on scratchbox 1 and just installed the 4.01 rootstrap. I had a problem with dbus complaining : D-Bus library appears to be incorrectly set up; failed to read machine uuid: Failed to open "/var/lib/dbus/machine-id": No such file or directory
Jun 22 16:24:11 <lbt> Anyhow.... it appears I need to run : /usr/bin/dbus-uuidgen --ensure
Jun 22 16:24:14 <qwerty12> Prefix the command you are running with run-standalone.sh
Jun 22 16:24:44 <lbt> oh
Jun 22 16:24:55 * lbt goes to see..
Jun 22 16:27:51 <lbt> when am I supposed to use run-standalone.sh
Jun 22 16:28:51 <lbt> does it simulate being launched from the menubar? I guess that makes sense...
Jun 22 16:29:44 <lbt> the docs here: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/4.0.1/INSTALL.txt
Jun 22 16:31:21 <lbt> don't mention it...
Jun 22 16:34:33 <Jaffa> ~seen keesj
Jun 22 16:34:35 <infobot> keesj is currently on #maemo #oe. Has said a total of 19 messages. Is idling for 2d 21h 4m 16s, last said: 'X-Fade: did you get some help for the extras's repo?'.
Jun 22 16:40:33 <GeneralAntilles> lardman, ping.
Jun 22 16:43:33 <lardman> GeneralAntilles: sorted, I wasn't logged in and didn't expect to be allowed to do anonymous edits
Jun 22 16:43:51 <GeneralAntilles> Sign your comments with '~~~~'
Jun 22 16:44:01 <lardman> so was confused when I was told I wasn't allowed to edit (thinking I must have been logged in)
Jun 22 16:44:07 <GeneralAntilles> and you can change how your nickname appears here: https://wiki.maemo.org/Special:Preferences
Jun 22 16:46:14 <lardman> Right, done that
Jun 22 16:54:15 <GeneralAntilles> lol
Jun 22 16:54:22 <GeneralAntilles> Garage has BOUNTIES?
Jun 22 16:54:25 <GeneralAntilles> https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/gbounty/index.php?type=group&group_id=564&pluginname=gbounty&action=getdetail&bounty_id=2
Jun 22 16:55:11 <Navi> Woo
Jun 22 16:55:13 <Navi> bounties
Jun 22 16:57:37 <Navi> Twenty bucks! Someone should do it NAO
Jun 22 17:09:33 <summatusmentis> I... ah... how hard would it be for that to happen?
Jun 22 17:09:49 <summatusmentis> and why hasn't the author(rm_you?) done it?
Jun 22 17:09:58 <GeneralAntilles> summatusmentis, lol
Jun 22 17:10:04 <GeneralAntilles> You don't even KNOW
Jun 22 17:10:18 <GeneralAntilles> He's spent 6 months trying to figure this out. ;)
Jun 22 17:10:43 <summatusmentis> trying to figure out how hard it is for the applet to be put in a container?
Jun 22 17:10:49 <summatusmentis> or how to do it?
Jun 22 17:10:56 <GeneralAntilles> Uh, how to do it. . . .
Jun 22 17:11:27 <summatusmentis> not documented or something?
Jun 22 17:11:33 <Navi> Nah
Jun 22 17:11:48 <GeneralAntilles> summatusmentis, what do you think? ;)
Jun 22 17:11:49 <lcuk> sounds like it needs a custom control to replace the existing menuitem class
Jun 22 17:12:09 <lcuk> but there may be some magic hack that some gtk god will know
Jun 22 17:12:24 <summatusmentis> GeneralAntilles: I have no idea. I'm assuming not, but I know virtually nothing about hildon/maemo coding practices
Jun 22 17:12:53 <GeneralAntilles> summatusmentis, maybe, after 6 months, you think one of us might've stumbled across the documentation and figured it out from that if it existed? ;)
Jun 22 17:13:02 <summatusmentis> lol
Jun 22 17:13:09 <summatusmentis> one would asusme so
Jun 22 17:13:12 <lcuk> but no1 is doing applets
Jun 22 17:13:30 <GeneralAntilles> "no1"? <_<
Jun 22 17:13:41 <lcuk> not really
Jun 22 17:13:42 <summatusmentis> lollerskates!
Jun 22 17:13:46 <GeneralAntilles> Lots of people make applets, but nobody is trying to put sliders in them except Nokia.
Jun 22 17:14:38 <lbt> hmm - sounds like this is a good way to encourage Nokia devs to stay closed...
Jun 22 17:14:47 <lbt> then they can turn round and claim all the bounties ... <LOL>
Jun 22 17:14:59 <Navi> Yeah
Jun 22 17:15:00 <lcuk> ok, let me rephrase, you can probably count on one hand the number of people who are making applets
Jun 22 17:15:07 <Navi> They'll totally want to claim the 20 dollar bounty
Jun 22 17:15:24 <lcuk> lol lbt i thought of that before, they could relocate to mexico with the bountry
Jun 22 17:15:54 <lcuk> live like kings for seconds before the money runs out
Jun 22 17:16:21 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, my comment was more directed at the lame aol speak. ;)
Jun 22 17:16:45 <Navi> aolspeek
Jun 22 17:16:45 <lbt> $20 - oh, I thought it was a worthwhile currency - like lira or something...
Jun 22 17:17:04 <lcuk> yer, do we get to decide which country the $ is from..
Jun 22 17:17:09 <GeneralAntilles> No.
Jun 22 17:17:19 <Navi> rm_you decides
Jun 22 17:17:28 <Navi> make him pay in ounces of gold
Jun 22 17:17:32 <Navi> 20 ounces should do
Jun 22 17:18:21 <lcuk> GeneralAntilles, whats aol?
Jun 22 17:18:54 <lbt> shouldn't you be running tar or something?
Jun 22 17:19:20 <lcuk> lol no ive got visual basic open and am procrastinating
Jun 22 17:19:29 <lbt> <sigh>
Jun 22 17:20:07 <lcuk> however i might be able to run make later
Jun 22 17:21:15 <lbt> that'd be nice - I'm playing with gtkmm now... still getting the lay of the land.
Jun 22 17:23:26 <lcuk> its bumpy and little molehills turn out to be mountains
Jun 22 17:24:42 <lbt> and then you find the fences and have to go the long way round....
Jun 22 17:27:16 <timely> summatusmentis: in short the code to make it work is basically an entire file
Jun 22 17:27:22 <timely> (rm_you's bounty)
Jun 22 17:27:41 <timely> and there's no way i can give away closed sources :(
Jun 22 17:28:52 <lcuk> timely, are we right in thinking that it is a replacement menu or menuitem class which impliments the additional functionality?
Jun 22 17:29:03 <lbt> do the nokia applets overload the standard widget?
Jun 22 17:29:15 <timely> lcuk: it's a raw widget that acts like a menu
Jun 22 17:29:52 <lbt> but has no published api?
Jun 22 17:30:01 <timely> it's not a library
Jun 22 17:30:05 <timely> just part of the app
Jun 22 17:30:34 <timely> this is what happens when ui designers write specifications...
Jun 22 17:30:38 <timely> people implement them...
Jun 22 17:30:42 <timely> speaking of which
Jun 22 17:30:47 <timely> i need to scribble on a few specs
Jun 22 17:30:54 <timely> which have things like: 1=1, 2=2, 3=2
Jun 22 17:31:00 <timely> yeah, that'll work well
Jun 22 17:31:38 <lbt> is there any chance of the relevant headers being released?
Jun 22 17:31:46 <timely> no relevant header
Jun 22 17:31:51 <timely> it's really just code
Jun 22 17:32:08 <lbt> OK - just wondering if there's any assist to reverse engineering something...
Jun 22 17:32:23 <timely> i've already given out as much info as possible
Jun 22 17:32:29 <timely> but basically the thing to do is instrument gtk
Jun 22 17:32:31 <lcuk> lbt, most controls are reimpliments from each other i was looking before
Jun 22 17:32:34 <timely> and listen to all the method calls
Jun 22 17:32:37 <lbt> yeah - I guess it's an old discussion...
Jun 22 17:32:38 <lcuk> look at the code for the ummm...
Jun 22 17:32:51 <lcuk> only today
Jun 22 17:33:59 <lcuk> things like tick menus and check menus etc all have active functionality within the standard menu - most things are built from combines of generic gtkbasecontrolwidgetthiny
Jun 22 17:36:26 <lcuk> https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/maemo-branches/IT-2005/gtk+/gtk/gtkcheckmenuitem.c
Jun 22 17:37:31 <lcuk> im sure its not anything magical and impossible
Jun 22 17:37:42 <lbt> what's actually wanted?
Jun 22 17:38:04 <lcuk> yer, hes after a scrollbar in a menu
Jun 22 17:38:18 <lbt> OK
Jun 22 17:38:39 <lcuk> so when you pop the menu open you can adjust the scrollbar - just like the volume and brightness applets
Jun 22 17:39:05 <lbt> OK
Jun 22 17:39:31 <lbt> can't he create a widget which is a label containing an hbox and a hscroll?
Jun 22 17:39:38 <lbt> a composite?
Jun 22 17:39:43 <lbt> then add that in the menu?
Jun 22 17:40:21 <lcuk> im not sure of his gtk knowedge, all i know is its bugged him for ages and he has pecked at loads of things to try
Jun 22 17:40:27 <lcuk> hence his bounty
Jun 22 17:40:29 * lbt is reading the wiki entry
Jun 22 17:46:16 <kkrusty> I just installed gngeo. Now I feel like I have something better than a psp
Jun 22 17:55:49 <sp3000> scale I suppose it would be, rather than scrollbar
Jun 22 17:59:35 <pekuja_> kkrusty, unless you have modded your device with a proper gamepad-like interface, I'd say PSP still wins
Jun 22 17:59:55 * lbt says "well, he's released the code here: https://garage.maemo.org/frs/download.php/4147/advanced-backlight_0.9-2.tar.gz so we can dig in and take a look"       whilst not looking at lcuk...
Jun 22 18:00:03 <kkrusty> pekuja_: dont take away my happiness >:|
Jun 22 18:00:18 <lcuk> lbt, yes we know that code doesnt work :P
Jun 22 18:00:22 <kkrusty> pekuja_: you already did. the n800 crashed on a particular rom
Jun 22 18:00:36 <lbt> and yet he's still released it - how brave of him :)
Jun 22 18:00:45 <GeneralAntilles> Well, it does work
Jun 22 18:00:53 <lcuk> no - it doesnt have the feature he wants
Jun 22 18:00:57 <lbt> ah, but it's not "finished"
Jun 22 18:01:06 <GeneralAntilles> The applet is perfectly functional.
Jun 22 18:01:14 <lcuk> he has implemented the changing and thats ok and lots of ppl use it, but he cant make it work
Jun 22 18:01:24 <lcuk> whilst looking like the original nokia ones
Jun 22 18:01:27 <lbt> which is lcuk's.... err.... "hangup" for not releasing his code :)
Jun 22 18:01:34 <GeneralAntilles> It just doesn't look right and doesn't close correctly unless you tap on the taskbar or statusbar.
Jun 22 18:01:45 <pekuja_> kkrusty, :-<
Jun 22 18:01:50 <GeneralAntilles> Depends on your definition of "work"
Jun 22 18:01:56 <pekuja_> kkrusty, at least Metal Slug still works, right?
Jun 22 18:01:56 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, release early, release often.
Jun 22 18:02:01 <GeneralAntilles> You fail at open source. ;)
Jun 22 18:02:07 <lbt> GeneralAntilles: no-one dies.
Jun 22 18:02:42 <kkrusty> pekuja_: yeah that works. But some roms are blacked out during game play
Jun 22 18:02:46 <lcuk> no, if i had written an applet, it would have too many options, which arent finished, would offer functionality that people would see and request of me, would do things which they arent expecting (clicking buttons perform actions that are inverse to what you would expect etc
Jun 22 18:03:15 <lcuk> just because i can add a "no warranties" sticker to it does not mean i would be happy giving it to people
Jun 22 18:03:37 <GeneralAntilles> Again, you fail at open source. ;)
Jun 22 18:03:38 <lbt> lcuk: you think like a shareware bod
Jun 22 18:03:44 <pekuja_> kkrusty, hmm, the gngeo port for maemo actually has the four buttons onscreen?
Jun 22 18:03:55 <pekuja_> that's weird, although I guess it might be better than using the keyboard
Jun 22 18:04:28 <kkrusty> pekuja_: Well it doesnt unless I leave the n800 to go into idle mode after which they appear
Jun 22 18:04:37 <lbt> lcuk: your attitude is very commendable and professional for a commercial world... seriously
Jun 22 18:04:46 <pekuja_> kkrusty, ah, so it's kinda buggy then?
Jun 22 18:04:58 <kkrusty> pekuja_: 'very' buggy
Jun 22 18:05:04 <lbt> but it's different in the OS world...
Jun 22 18:05:04 <lcuk> lbt, no its commendable for me learning from a system and finding out what works
Jun 22 18:05:14 <Proteous> my cellphone has a passable dpad on it, what would be cool is a java app for it that would make is show up as a bluetooth keyboard/gamepad for my n810 so I could use it as a gamepad
Jun 22 18:05:32 <pekuja_> if you could run a DS emulator on Maemo, it'd be a pretty awesome gaming device :-P
Jun 22 18:05:46 <pekuja_> that's fantasy though, there isn't even enough screen real estate
Jun 22 18:06:01 <lbt> yeah - I agree - but you put together something that looks cool - and others want to play too. That's about the size of it :)
Jun 22 18:06:28 <lcuk> and i will release when im ready :)
Jun 22 18:06:30 <lbt> Anyhow - wasn't meaning to nag.
Jun 22 18:06:34 <lcuk> lol
Jun 22 18:06:57 <lbt> I'm just waiting for an install so I can learn about the hell that is autoconf
Jun 22 18:07:00 * lcuk is wrestling with sqlite at the moment
Jun 22 18:07:20 <lcuk> well you wont get that from mine, i havent got autotools on my 810 ;)
Jun 22 18:07:37 <lbt> I'm playing with scratchbox 1 now...
Jun 22 18:07:39 <kkrusty> I would say that the n800 does everything badly but is better than everything else in trying to do everything
Jun 22 18:07:41 <pekuja_> Proteous, which phone model is that?
Jun 22 18:08:07 <GeneralAntilles> kkrusty, I would disagree.
Jun 22 18:08:08 <lbt> I was starting with the packaging - then I'll write some code...
Jun 22 18:08:12 <lcuk> lbt :) i couldnt handle vmware so i setup gcc on my device and can now edit and compile direct on 810 or use ssh and whichever os i want to edit
Jun 22 18:08:22 <kkrusty> GeneralAntilles: I would hit you with a shovel
Jun 22 18:08:32 <qwerty12_N800> lol
Jun 22 18:08:33 <GeneralAntilles> Alrighty then
Jun 22 18:08:36 <lbt> no vmware needed - scratchbox uses cross-compile
Jun 22 18:08:43 <lcuk> in windows?
Jun 22 18:08:49 <lbt> oh
Jun 22 18:08:57 * lbt shudders.
Jun 22 18:09:04 <Proteous> pekuja_: a pantech c150
Jun 22 18:09:06 <pekuja_> the internet tablet is really probably just hitting really close to a sweet spot for a PDA-like device
Jun 22 18:09:12 * lbt steps away from the keyboard...
Jun 22 18:09:14 <pekuja_> Pantech? O__o
Jun 22 18:09:16 <pekuja_> never heard of them
Jun 22 18:09:23 <lcuk> pantech make my phone
Jun 22 18:09:24 <pekuja_> then again I live in Finland so everybody has a Nokia
Jun 22 18:09:31 <lcuk> o2 ice
Jun 22 18:09:35 <Proteous> neither had I, but it realy is a nice phone, ATT only in the us though
Jun 22 18:09:36 <qwerty12_N800> lcuk, http://i29.tinypic.com/15ht1w.jpg
Jun 22 18:10:22 <lcuk> yer i saw qwerty12_N800, but why would i run xepyhr when i can run on device faster and safer in knowledge that its actual hardware
Jun 22 18:11:23 <Jaffa> BTW, anyone want an Asus Eee 701? http://bleb.org/photos/show.html?id=0&album=asus-eee
Jun 22 18:11:31 <pekuja_> yes
Jun 22 18:11:45 <qwerty12_N800> lcuk, true. for me, sbox is better because it's faster and has proper coreutils etc
Jun 22 18:11:45 <pekuja_> are you giving one away? ;-)
Jun 22 18:12:33 <lcuk> qwerty12_N800, :) agree - for grown up compiling big established projects its essential
Jun 22 18:12:36 <Jaffa> pekuja_: practically! ;-) 150ukp/190 euro/local equivalent, or it'll end up on eBay
Jun 22 18:12:54 <pekuja_> haha, ok
Jun 22 18:12:57 <lcuk> 3 radishes and a packet of peanuts
Jun 22 18:13:19 <Jaffa> lcuk: meet you at 140ukp and a packet of peanuts
Jun 22 18:13:31 <lcuk> lol, what you replacing it with
Jun 22 18:13:34 <pekuja_> how about chili peanuts?
Jun 22 18:13:57 <aquatix> hm, 701
Jun 22 18:14:16 <pekuja_> anyways, I'm probably still waiting for Eee 901
Jun 22 18:14:22 <aquatix> 901 s really nice, but more expensive than 190 euro :)
Jun 22 18:14:28 <pekuja_> yep
Jun 22 18:14:37 <qwerty12_N800> A packet of weed with nothing on top, should cover it.
Jun 22 18:14:39 <Jaffa> lcuk: nothing much really. Getting a better laptop from work, and I'm not using it much. Shame to see a gadget go to waste, and it was primarily bought as a stopgap before my N810 arrived.
Jun 22 18:14:45 <pekuja_> I wonder how much it'll be. I've heard it might be as low as 400 euro
Jun 22 18:14:46 <vegai> I'm looking for the Acer Aspire One...
Jun 22 18:15:59 <aquatix> 701 is with atom?
Jun 22 18:16:39 <lcuk> cool jaffa, its not a vista machine is it? :P
Jun 22 18:17:21 <lcuk> actually, i best stop wasting time,  ive got a load of data moving to do
Jun 22 18:17:23 <lcuk> back later
Jun 22 18:19:29 <GeneralAntilles> Does this zeenix character on Planet EVER blog about Maemo?
Jun 22 18:31:30 <pekuja_> aquatix, nope, it has a Celeron
Jun 22 18:31:36 <pekuja_> aquatix, 901 has Atom
Jun 22 18:31:52 <pekuja_> aquatix, 900 also has Celeron
Jun 22 18:32:30 <ShadowJK> what's battery life of 701 like?
Jun 22 18:32:30 <aquatix> kk
Jun 22 18:32:41 <aquatix> just read about it
Jun 22 18:32:50 <aquatix> i prefer a 901
Jun 22 18:33:02 <pekuja_> yeah, 901 is a lot better
Jun 22 18:33:36 <pekuja_> ShadowJK, 2 hours? maybe Jaffa can confirm this...
Jun 22 18:33:49 <aquatix> 701 is a big n810 :)
Jun 22 18:33:50 <forge> Should be much higher
Jun 22 18:34:04 <forge> I think 701 has ~4h or so battery life
Jun 22 18:34:04 <GeneralAntilles> Should be, but isn't.
Jun 22 18:34:49 <forge> Crank the settings a bit and it should yeild that much
Jun 22 18:46:36 <Jaffa> 701 has around 4h, I think. Much longer than 900, a bit less than 901 (which has a bigger/heavier battery and more efficient CPU)
Jun 22 19:05:23 <Po84> quietest IRC room ever
Jun 22 19:06:01 <forge> How's so ?
Jun 22 19:06:18 <Po84> nobody said anything for 10 minutes
Jun 22 19:07:00 <forge> Because everyone's still getting over the mid-summer hangover they managed to aquire in the past three days
Jun 22 19:07:08 <Po84> hehe
Jun 22 19:08:01 <GeneralAntilles> Po84, you don't IRC much, do you?
Jun 22 19:08:19 <Po84> not any more
Jun 22 19:09:14 <GeneralAntilles> Most channels are mostly idling most of the time.
Jun 22 19:09:24 <Po84> yeah I think that's why I quit it to be honest
Jun 22 19:10:06 <aquatix> this channel comes in waves, so to say
Jun 22 19:11:16 <Po84> I just came in to see if it was all people talking about development stuff or what
Jun 22 19:11:38 <aquatix> they do, actually
Jun 22 19:12:09 <Po84> just that
Jun 22 19:12:21 <aquatix> but i think they are currently quietly consuming some alcoholic beverages, contemplating how to take over the world
Jun 22 19:12:31 <Proteous> muhahahahahaa
Jun 22 19:12:40 * aquatix doesn't type fast on his n810
Jun 22 19:12:54 * Proteous gives aquatix more caffine
Jun 22 19:12:56 <Po84> what IRC client you using?
Jun 22 19:13:02 <Proteous> sirc
Jun 22 19:13:07 <aquatix> irssi
Jun 22 19:13:12 <Proteous> er, yeah, that one
Jun 22 19:13:14 <Proteous> irssi
Jun 22 19:13:19 <Po84> mind you IRC on N800 sucks because you have to eitehr use the stylus or the full screen keyboard
Jun 22 19:13:37 <Proteous> but on the n810 isn't like butta
Jun 22 19:13:43 <Proteous> er
Jun 22 19:13:46 <Proteous> man, I can't type
Jun 22 19:13:52 <Proteous> on the n810 it's great
Jun 22 19:13:55 <GeneralAntilles> Meh, IRC is fine for me on the N800.
Jun 22 19:13:56 <Po84> yeah
Jun 22 19:14:41 <aquatix> that's why i have an n810 ;)
Jun 22 19:15:00 <Proteous> the ctrl being on only one side of the n810 keypad and the lack of an alt key makes screen and irssi a little annoying, but it's not too bad
Jun 22 19:15:02 <aquatix> hm, wifi dropped out
Jun 22 19:15:16 <aquatix> true
Jun 22 19:15:31 <aquatix> ctrl+p/n is my friend
Jun 22 19:15:35 <Proteous> yeah
Jun 22 19:15:43 <aquatix> and esc+p/n
Jun 22 19:15:59 <lbt> Me, I like my dual 24" widescreens and a full size keyboard...
Jun 22 19:16:04 <lbt> size matters
Jun 22 19:16:05 <aquatix> heheh
Jun 22 19:16:12 <aquatix> i like my 30''
Jun 22 19:16:19 <Proteous> also, since they made the number pad only accessable by using the func key, why didn't they just put the numbers in a npad layout on the right side of the keyboard
Jun 22 19:16:25 <aquatix> indeed does :P
Jun 22 19:16:55 <aquatix> Proteous: i think the layout is quite ok
Jun 22 19:17:36 <Proteous> typing numbers would have been easier if I could hold down the func key with my left thumb and type the numbers with my right thumb
Jun 22 19:17:48 <Proteous> which I can't really due since half the numbers are on the left side
Jun 22 19:18:41 <Proteous> but, I like having a hardware keyboard much better then the on screen one
Jun 22 19:18:45 <jott> Proteous: you could always define your own custom mapping :)
Jun 22 19:19:01 <Proteous> and repaint the keyboard maybe
Jun 22 19:19:02 <Proteous> heh
Jun 22 19:19:35 <jott> yeah just use a permanent marker
Jun 22 19:19:50 <Po84> I was thinking about buying a neat little USB keyboard I saw in maplin but it was ?20.  Slightly too much
Jun 22 19:19:53 <aquatix> Proteous: hm, true
Jun 22 19:19:58 <Proteous> ever wonder why the number pad on a keyboard/calculator is different then the layout on a telephone?
Jun 22 19:19:58 <jott> or paint your brain :)
Jun 22 19:20:05 * aquatix has a bt kb
Jun 22 19:20:15 <aquatix> but don't use it much
Jun 22 19:21:03 <aquatix> not very usable at the couch ;)
Jun 22 19:21:16 <lbt> Po84: have you seen this: http://www.play.com/Mobiles/Mobile/4-/5175580/iGo-Stowaway-Ultra-Slim-Bluetooth-Keyboard/Product.html
Jun 22 19:21:23 <lbt> £18 delivered
Jun 22 19:21:46 <jott> Proteous: well better ask why a phone number pad differs from a calculator layout ;)
Jun 22 19:22:05 <jott> ah
Jun 22 19:22:09 <jott> you said that ;)
Jun 22 19:22:16 <Po84> lbt: I'm wondering if using a bluetooth keyboard would drain the batteries faster than using a USB one
Jun 22 19:22:17 <GeneralAntilles> Why are phone number pads so broken? :D
Jun 22 19:22:26 <Po84> but I can't afford to buy 2 and trial them side by side
Jun 22 19:22:27 <Proteous> heh
Jun 22 19:22:32 <lbt> actually it looks like the offer ended :(
Jun 22 19:22:43 <GeneralAntilles> Po84, I can't imagine that being the case.
Jun 22 19:22:44 <Proteous> Po84: the BT would would use more battery
Jun 22 19:23:07 <Proteous> s/would would/one would/
Jun 22 19:23:07 <infobot> Proteous meant: Po84: the BT one would use more battery
Jun 22 19:23:18 <Po84> yeah I got that
Jun 22 19:23:55 <Po84> plugged a memory stick in the other day and it seemed to really cane the battery, but then memorysticks are not the same as keyboards
Jun 22 19:24:22 <Proteous> I think I'm going to hack up an oldschool NES controller. Do a USB retrofit and install a retractable USB cable inside it
Jun 22 19:24:46 <Po84> i'm sure someone made a nes controller into an ipod game controller using USB
Jun 22 19:25:04 <Po84> but I cannot remember where I saw it
Jun 22 19:25:05 <Proteous> wonder if I could install some batteries in it to make it self powered
Jun 22 19:25:41 <lbt> piezo
Jun 22 19:25:46 <Proteous> lol
Jun 22 19:26:07 <aquatix> bt kb is quite decent qua battery
Jun 22 19:26:15 <Po84> http://www.hackaday.com/2007/01/12/ipod-nes-controller/ here we go
Jun 22 19:26:26 <Po84> except it's not usb
Jun 22 19:26:32 <aquatix> used it for hours in the train with bt gprs
Jun 22 19:28:48 <Proteous> Po84: that's slick, docking it into the controller like that is nifty
Jun 22 19:29:08 <Po84> yeah I thought so when I saw it.  I only have an ancient 1st gen ipod else I'd have been all over that
Jun 22 19:29:47 <GeneralAntilles> Just get a Wiimote to go with your NIT for emulators.
Jun 22 19:30:05 <Po84> yeah I saw that.  not tried it yet
Jun 22 19:30:13 <GeneralAntilles> I know Navi does it that way.
Jun 22 19:30:25 <Proteous> that was  a neat hack, but a wiimote is too large
Jun 22 19:30:38 <Po84> I paired a wiimote with my imac once and for some reason i behaved screwey when I tried to re-pair to the wii
Jun 22 19:30:41 <GeneralAntilles> Smaller than an NES controller.
Jun 22 19:30:41 <Proteous> well, not as portable as I'd like
Jun 22 19:30:42 <Po84> *it
Jun 22 19:30:56 <Proteous> GeneralAntilles: a wiimote isn't smaller then and NES controller
Jun 22 19:31:39 <glass> wiimote needs less work and is available easily though
Jun 22 19:31:53 <glass> i just wish nokia put a proper direction controller on their phones and other devices
Jun 22 19:33:46 <Po84> the D-Pad is in totally the wrong place for gaming
Jun 22 19:34:41 <lbt> not if you use xrandr and invert the screen
Jun 22 19:34:52 <GeneralAntilles> It'd be nice if they would keep the N800's formfactor and clone all the buttons over to the right side.
Jun 22 19:35:22 <GeneralAntilles> Just think what you could do with twice the buttons! :D
Jun 22 19:35:36 <aquatix> lol
Jun 22 19:35:49 <aquatix> being twice as productive!
Jun 22 19:36:09 <glass> left or right side doesnt matter that much
Jun 22 19:36:20 <GeneralAntilles> The dpad still sucks
Jun 22 19:36:21 <GeneralAntilles> but still.
Jun 22 19:36:23 <glass> but it not being great for gaming matters and lacking buttons on the other side of screen does
Jun 22 19:36:24 <Po84> some sort of N800 adaptor that fits around the screen and turns it into a handheld game with a few more buttons
Jun 22 19:36:53 <GeneralAntilles> They make one for phones.
Jun 22 19:37:05 <jott> GeneralAntilles: hah i bet nokia would end up with something like the nokia 6820 :)
Jun 22 19:37:12 <lbt> you see - they're encouraging a market for accesories....
Jun 22 19:37:28 <GeneralAntilles> http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=reviews&id=651
Jun 22 19:47:34 <kkrusty> anyone here has a list of roms which worked on maemo gngeo?
Jun 22 19:50:41 <ssvb> lardman: hi
Jun 22 19:51:22 <ssvb> lardman: I have finally successfully used DMA example
Jun 22 19:51:30 <ImMelody> hey guys..
Jun 22 19:52:40 <ImMelody> I am so fed up right now >.<
Jun 22 19:52:53 <ssvb> lardman: the one from spru433 does not work because of the issue explained in section "3.8 DMA1 example/DMA transfers to SARAM or EMIF" of http://c5000.spectrumdigital.com/files/dsk5x_faq.html
Jun 22 19:53:35 <ImMelody> Maybe one of you will know the answer to this question..
Jun 22 19:54:03 <ImMelody> How can a Samba share be viewable on a Windows computer, but not show up on any version of linux?
Jun 22 19:54:12 <sinak> Hello! How can i do a backup to my N800?
Jun 22 19:56:03 <ssvb> lardman: now I will try to benchmark and find out the fastest DMA transfer method for SDRAM->SARAM and SARAM->DARAM
Jun 22 19:57:31 <lcuk_> ImMelody, hi, i dunno, firewall issues or refreshes or something like that?
Jun 22 19:58:06 <ImMelody> Well, I can go to the shares if I manually input the IP
Jun 22 19:58:18 <ImMelody> except for the printer share..which I can't see altogether
Jun 22 20:03:47 <lbt> OK - real quick - what's the best pdf reader for the n800?
Jun 22 20:04:58 <GeneralAntilles> Depends
Jun 22 20:05:02 <GeneralAntilles> But most people like Evince
Jun 22 20:05:37 * Jaffa 's first little Vala program is working in Scratchbox. Woohoo *cough*
Jun 22 20:05:38 <lbt> ok ta  :)
Jun 22 20:06:05 * GeneralAntilles gives Jaffa a cookie.
Jun 22 20:06:05 <lopz> bye
Jun 22 20:06:30 <Jaffa> GeneralAntilles: it displays two labels: one containing a big "dd:hh:MM:ss", the other a smaller ".cc"
Jun 22 20:06:32 <lbt> Jaffa: cool - I just got my first gtkmm running :) - the pdf reader is for the pdf here http://www.gtkmm.org/documentation.shtml
Jun 22 20:06:42 <lbt> l8r all :)
Jun 22 20:07:05 * Jaffa wants a totally power mgmt compliant countdown timer app to a specified time or for a given duration.
Jun 22 20:07:53 <Jaffa> But I dispair at Gtk+'s documentation (which is fine, once you find the bit you need), and Vala's current "look at the Gtk+ docs and try and work out the name of something using this naming convention" approach to API docs.
Jun 22 20:07:55 <GeneralAntilles> I was thinking about filing an enhancement request to have Extras shipped enabled.
Jun 22 20:08:05 <GeneralAntilles> Anybody else think that's a largely pointless idea?
Jun 22 20:08:10 <Jaffa> Indeed. I assume you've just seen my comment on the talk page?
Jun 22 20:08:14 <GeneralAntilles> Yes
Jun 22 20:08:24 <dieman> im guessing theres no chance on extras shipped enabled
Jun 22 20:08:30 <Jaffa> I'd vote for it.
Jun 22 20:08:53 <dieman> theres too much stuff in extras with insanely rough edges
Jun 22 20:09:00 <Jaffa> dieman: I'd like to see a categorical statement from Nokia though, and why. The "legal responsibility" answer I'd expect is a little thin
Jun 22 20:09:08 <Toba_> excuse my poor knowledge
Jun 22 20:09:16 <Toba_> but what is extras shipping?
Jun 22 20:09:22 <Jaffa> dieman: that's a QA problem, if that's a stumbling block we can find ways of fixing that (that are on the radar anyway)
Jun 22 20:09:22 <dieman> i think if there was an extras-super-shiny catalog
Jun 22 20:09:28 <dieman> it'd be really cool.
Jun 22 20:09:43 <dieman> stuff that you'd be ok having your dad happen to find and install
Jun 22 20:09:48 <dieman> on his tablet
Jun 22 20:09:53 <Toba_> oh
Jun 22 20:09:55 <dieman> [my dad is a use case because he went out and bought one]
Jun 22 20:10:07 <juergbi> Jaffa: maybe this helps in addition to the gtk documentation, http://www.vala-project.org/doc/docu/gtk+-2.0.vapi/index.html
Jun 22 20:10:09 <dieman> [so honestly, this isn't hypothetical for me]
Jun 22 20:10:25 <juergbi> Jaffa: we want a complete documentation of the bindings in the end, of course
Jun 22 20:10:33 <sjgadsby> dieman: Mine too.
Jun 22 20:10:40 <GeneralAntilles> Part of it, for me, is that even though it ships on the device 99% of users wont find it and enable it without help.
Jun 22 20:10:40 <Jaffa> Toba_: the extras repository is an "application catalog" (sic) containing lots of third party extra applications. The Application Manager ships with it configured, but disabled, and so the user has to go and explicitly tick a hidden checkbox to see a whole bunch of extra applications which could value-add their tablet experience.
Jun 22 20:10:52 <Toba_> oh, so stable software that isn't completely old and boring?
Jun 22 20:11:09 <Toba_> I use it, but you mean 'shipping' as in 'working when you get it'
Jun 22 20:11:10 <GeneralAntilles> and a lot of the questions I see popping up these days can be solved by shipping it enabled
Jun 22 20:11:13 <Jaffa> juergbi: cool, ta. I should've looked at the Vala website a bit better (which, sitting as it does within gnome.org's overall layout is a little hard to navigate without lots of back-button pressing)
Jun 22 20:11:21 <GeneralAntilles> or making it easier for the user to find their way to enabling it.
Jun 22 20:11:31 <dieman> Jaffa: if anything, point to Ubuntu's decision to enable universe as a shipped option
Jun 22 20:12:30 <Jaffa> dieman: but they've got a whole raft of s/w available out-of-the box so that's an argument in favour. It's just good quality, QA-ed software. If we had an extras QA process, we could enable extras on shipped devices (I say "we", I mean Nokia)
Jun 22 20:12:33 <Jaffa> GeneralAntilles: agreed 100%
Jun 22 20:12:54 <juergbi> Jaffa: yes, a properly strcutured website is also on the plan ;)
Jun 22 20:13:02 <GeneralAntilles> This would be another possible approach: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:GeneralAntilles/Improving_the_Application_manager#New_buttons
Jun 22 20:13:40 <lcuk_> jaffa, dont most users find "extras" switched on after their first visit to maemo.org website and clicking one of the many .install files on the games list?
Jun 22 20:14:08 <Jaffa> juergbi: one thing you might be able to answer, I want to add a timer (which I can enable/disable on certain DBUS events). The tutorial shows doing it in a GLib mainloop, but I'd expect to see Gtk.timeout_add()... but don't (not even a grep of the vapi files turns it up)
Jun 22 20:14:11 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk_, I doubt MOST users find their way to maemo.org
Jun 22 20:14:19 <dieman> anyhow
Jun 22 20:14:21 <dieman> must go
Jun 22 20:14:26 <Jaffa> lcuk_: I think you're over-estimating the experience of the "average" (i.e. median, or mode) user.
Jun 22 20:15:10 <Jaffa> Especially if, when we get to step 5, it's a consumer device and OS which will be available through, say, high-street stores like Argos, Woolworths or various local equivalents.
Jun 22 20:15:30 <rm_you> morning....
Jun 22 20:15:38 <aquatix> hey you
Jun 22 20:15:51 <juergbi> Jaffa: gtk_timeout_add is deprecated for quite some time. Gtk.main () uses a normal GLib main loop, so you can use GLib.Timeout.add()
Jun 22 20:16:17 <Jaffa> juergbi: ah, fair enough. Not done enough Gtk development recently.
Jun 22 20:16:17 <juergbi> (feel free to join #vala on gimpnet)
Jun 22 20:16:23 <Jaffa> Ta.
Jun 22 20:16:27 <juergbi> yw
Jun 22 20:17:00 <Jaffa> Cuppa first. Then some TV. Then trying to get an early night so may try and resist a late-night hacking session. Want to kick some donkey on my first day back at work tomorrow in 2 weeks :-)
Jun 22 20:17:02 <sjgadsby> Give a Yes/No option to enable extras--along with the standard, Nokia "this may eat your tablet" disclaimer--as part of initial setup.
Jun 22 20:17:24 <GeneralAntilles> sjgadsby, that's an option.
Jun 22 20:17:34 <GeneralAntilles> Part of the tutorial home applet, maybe?
Jun 22 20:17:34 <Jaffa> sjgadsby: nice idea, especially if it included the option to never show the "eat your tablet" warning again. Or hell, even if it did.
Jun 22 20:17:38 <sjgadsby> Or upon first opening of app manager.
Jun 22 20:18:10 <Jaffa> I like it as part of initial setup. You've done date/time, phone, Internet access. Third party apps are a crucial part of the maemo vision, AIUI.
Jun 22 20:18:56 <GeneralAntilles> Alright, I guess I'll put this together as a sort of meta bug.
Jun 22 20:22:25 <lcuk_> what i find strange is: from the default tableteer page they are heavily pushing numptyphysics - following default instructions takes you to a garage page..
Jun 22 20:22:30 <lcuk_> http://tableteer.nokia.com/tableteer/os2008/os2008.xhtml
Jun 22 20:24:06 <lcuk_> maemomapper links take you to maemo.org and a .install file
Jun 22 20:24:31 <lcuk_> isnt this tableteer link the first and only thing on your desktop at install time?
Jun 22 20:24:53 <GeneralAntilles> Default desktop: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/Itos_2008_desktop.jpg
Jun 22 20:25:14 <lcuk_> whats streamtuner? i had tableteer
Jun 22 20:25:18 <GeneralAntilles> It rotates.
Jun 22 20:25:52 <lcuk_> you sure? mine only ever showed 1
Jun 22 20:26:30 <lcuk_> "web shortcut" has 1 image and 1 web address
Jun 22 20:26:51 <GeneralAntilles> Yes, I'm quite sure.
Jun 22 20:28:19 <lcuk_> hmmm, did you update to the strange 50.3 thing that noone knew what was different on it was?
Jun 22 20:28:34 <GeneralAntilles> 51-3 was just the NOLO upgrade.
Jun 22 20:29:11 <lcuk_> go into the settings of your "web shortcut" applet - how does it get a list of things to view? how does it change the images?
Jun 22 20:29:25 <GeneralAntilles> OK, whatever, it doesn't rotate.
Jun 22 20:29:27 <GeneralAntilles> I don't care right now. :P
Jun 22 20:29:31 <GeneralAntilles> Just let me write up this bug.
Jun 22 20:29:35 <Dekaritae> I am root and I have a document open in vi, but I cannot edit it
Jun 22 20:29:37 <lcuk_> lol
Jun 22 20:31:34 <Dekaritae> I think the file is read only but I do not know the equivalent to "attrib"
Jun 22 20:31:59 <evaryont> what keys do I need to add to apt-key to allow apt-get update to successfully & smoothly run?
Jun 22 20:36:29 <Po84> later gators
Jun 22 20:36:58 <Dekaritae> Ok, I have done 'chmod a+w matchbox.defs'
Jun 22 20:37:09 <Dekaritae> But I still cannot make changes in vi
Jun 22 20:39:31 <Dekaritae> Durr command mode
Jun 22 20:41:41 <Dekaritae> Yay worked
Jun 22 20:42:24 <Dekaritae> <keebler> And to my proudness, my 3yrd just made her first kill on halo... (I left to check my email and she picked up the controller.
Jun 22 20:44:20 <acydlord> congrats lol
Jun 22 20:45:29 <sinak> does n800 have a sudo password?
Jun 22 20:46:19 <sinak> i tried to make a tar of my root folder
Jun 22 20:46:26 <GeneralAntilles> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3279
Jun 22 20:46:35 <sinak> and it said Permission Denied
Jun 22 20:46:47 <GeneralAntilles> ~easyroot
Jun 22 20:46:48 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, easyroot is an easy way to get root access on OS2008 and can be found at http://nitapps.com
Jun 22 20:49:01 <sinak> GeneralAntilles ~easyroot is the password?
Jun 22 20:49:21 <GeneralAntilles> sinak, click the link
Jun 22 20:49:27 <GeneralAntilles> scroll down to the easyroot package.
Jun 22 20:50:13 <acydlord> i never installed easyroot and sudo gainroot - worked just fine
Jun 22 20:50:37 <sinak> ah ok!
Jun 22 20:50:39 <sinak> thanks
Jun 22 20:50:41 <acydlord> and i put way too much milk in this coffee
Jun 22 20:50:45 <Proteous> heh
Jun 22 20:50:51 <GeneralAntilles> Then you must've enabled R&D mode, acydlord.
Jun 22 20:50:52 <Proteous> just add more coffeeeeeee
Jun 22 20:51:19 <acydlord> it's a cup at a time maker, so i'm stuck with this one till its gone
Jun 22 20:51:31 <acydlord> and at $13 a lb i'm not gonna pour it out lol
Jun 22 20:51:43 <Proteous> that's not too bad of a price
Jun 22 20:52:20 <GeneralAntilles> lol coffee
Jun 22 20:52:24 <GeneralAntilles> sugar highs are more exciting
Jun 22 20:52:37 <Proteous> we have a local roaster here in town that does good work, the prices are about that, $11-$13 per lb
Jun 22 20:53:55 <rm_you> Dekaritae: w!
Jun 22 20:54:00 <rm_you> exclamation does a force
Jun 22 20:54:05 <rm_you> don't need to change write perms
Jun 22 20:54:17 <acydlord> there are a couple local roasters out here, but i've only been buying fairtrade coffee lately
Jun 22 20:54:51 <Dekaritae> rm_you: When I started vi I was not able to edit the document. I did not know of command mode
Jun 22 20:55:19 <rm_you> OH lol
Jun 22 20:55:24 <rm_you> never used VI before? :P
Jun 22 20:55:28 <Dekaritae> My preferred editor is TextPad 5
Jun 22 20:55:35 <Proteous> joe FTW!!
Jun 22 20:55:38 <rm_you> VIM is win :P
Jun 22 20:55:41 <Proteous> or pico/nano
Jun 22 20:55:47 <Dekaritae> I would rather Leafpad
Jun 22 20:55:48 <Proteous> for us n00bs that are scared of VI
Jun 22 20:55:48 <rm_you> bleh pico
Jun 22 20:56:09 <sjgadsby> TextPad is nice. I love block select mode.
Jun 22 20:56:14 <Dekaritae> Yus!
Jun 22 20:56:24 <GeneralAntilles> nano is segfault hell on the tablet
Jun 22 20:56:50 <Dekaritae> I am trying to launch the gpe-filemanager as root but I get an error
Jun 22 20:57:26 <Dekaritae> Something about D-Bus library being incorrectly set up
Jun 22 20:57:36 <acydlord> I have a vi cheatsheet on my n810
Jun 22 20:57:47 <rm_you> I have a VI cheatsheet in my brain
Jun 22 20:57:51 <rm_you> wait, that isn't cheating
Jun 22 20:57:53 <rm_you> nm
Jun 22 20:57:56 <acydlord> i used to but i got out of practice
Jun 22 20:58:09 <Dekaritae> I haven't received my hardware keyboard yet so I am fumbling with the virtual
Jun 22 20:58:10 <rm_you> it has taken me about 5 years :P
Jun 22 20:58:32 <acydlord> gksu corrupted me
Jun 22 20:59:21 <andpoul> hi, I've been having difficulty creating an account on maemo.org
Jun 22 20:59:30 <andpoul> whom should I address this to?
Jun 22 20:59:52 <Dekaritae> Whom are you addressing now?
Jun 22 20:59:55 <andpoul> ok, nm, working now
Jun 22 21:25:29 <Jaffa> GeneralAntilles: do we know how 'peterschneider' is, BTW?
Jun 22 21:25:35 <Jaffa> s/how/who/
Jun 22 21:25:35 <infobot> Jaffa meant: GeneralAntilles: do we know who 'peterschneider' is, BTW?
Jun 22 21:25:41 <GeneralAntilles> Quim's manager, evidently.
Jun 22 21:25:54 * Jaffa only saw the name for the first time today.
Jun 22 21:25:56 <Jaffa> Ah, I see.
Jun 22 21:26:15 <GeneralAntilles> He may be a bit new
Jun 22 21:26:27 <GeneralAntilles> I think X-Fade mentioned meeting him early in the year.
Jun 22 21:27:43 <Jaffa> It's interesting that a more senior Nokia person than Quim is drafting "Welcome to the maemo.org community" things whilst both Nokia and that community are trying to put more control in the community itself.
Jun 22 21:27:58 <GeneralAntilles> Hehe
Jun 22 21:28:56 <GeneralAntilles> If it's well-written and useful, it's not skin off my back. :D
Jun 22 21:29:01 <GeneralAntilles> s/not/no/
Jun 22 21:29:01 <infobot> GeneralAntilles meant: If it's well-written and useful, it's no skin off my back. :D
Jun 22 21:30:07 <timely> Jaffa: where is this doc?
Jun 22 21:30:25 <Jaffa> GeneralAntilles: True, but it's harder (both mentally and physically) to totally redefine something from someone senior. It starts reading like a front page of the community website, but who's going to read it, rather than just close their browser? Hence, my question about purpose on the talk page.
Jun 22 21:30:27 <GeneralAntilles> https://wiki.maemo.org/User:Peterschneider
Jun 22 21:30:45 <Jaffa> s/physically/politically/
Jun 22 21:30:46 <infobot> Jaffa meant: GeneralAntilles: True, but it's harder (both mentally and politically) to totally redefine something from someone senior. It starts reading like a front page of the community website, but who's going to read it, rather than just close their browser? Hence...
Jun 22 21:31:16 <GeneralAntilles> Jaffa, sign that properly.
Jun 22 21:31:21 <GeneralAntilles> Oh
Jun 22 21:31:22 <GeneralAntilles> You did
Jun 22 21:31:55 <Jaffa> Just have. Forgot I wasn't logged in (one of the reasons I've a distaste for anonymous edits ;-))
Jun 22 21:32:18 <GeneralAntilles> There's a mediawiki plugin to log you in when you submit an edit if you aren't already.
Jun 22 21:32:28 <timely> GeneralAntilles: zeenix changed groups, he probably can't say much until close to the next release :)
Jun 22 21:32:44 <GeneralAntilles> Oh, he's with Nokia?
Jun 22 21:32:50 * Jaffa hadn't realised that either.
Jun 22 21:33:14 <Jaffa> All he'd talked about s/w wise that I'd seen was gupnp stuff (which I've no interest in, seemed to be desktop software, but at least /was/ software ;-))
Jun 22 21:34:01 <GeneralAntilles> We could really use that "Who's who" map right about now.
Jun 22 21:34:22 <Jaffa> GeneralAntilles: enableble in my account or is it a global thing?
Jun 22 21:34:33 <GeneralAntilles> It's a plugin
Jun 22 21:34:37 <GeneralAntilles> Somebody'd have to install it.
Jun 22 21:34:37 <timely> jaffa / GeneralAntilles : #jaffa ?
Jun 22 21:35:28 <timely> so not my fault... i gave dneary his head start over a month ago
Jun 22 21:42:25 <timely> GeneralAntilles: in general i think it's safe to assume people talking about helsinki probably are
Jun 22 21:42:30 <timely> especially if they don't make sense and don't sound like finns :)
Jun 22 21:42:36 <timely> if they sound like finns, assume they aren't :)
Jun 22 21:42:44 <GeneralAntilles> lol
Jun 22 21:43:03 <timely> hey, the logic works...
Jun 22 21:51:11 <Dekaritae> Is there a trick to moving the xterm toolbar from the bottom to the right?
Jun 22 21:52:43 <rm_you> wow, upgraded bash-completion package in Sid and now it just FAILS
Jun 22 21:52:59 <sinak> is there an openoffice for N800?
Jun 22 21:53:38 <lardman> ssvb: hi
Jun 22 21:53:54 <lardman> ssvb: Sorry for the late reply, I'll be interested to hear how you get on
Jun 22 21:54:09 <acydlord> no OOo for maemo yet
Jun 22 21:54:26 <lardman> ssvb: I timed the data transfer vs processing and it's ~3.4s for transfer vs ~20s for transfer + processing
Jun 22 21:54:36 <lardman> s/3.4/3.5
Jun 22 21:55:12 <ssvb> lardman: so data transfer takes almost the same time as full processing on ARM?
Jun 22 21:55:23 <lardman> yes, perhaps even a bit more
Jun 22 21:55:54 <ssvb> lardman: regarding DMA, I got it working
Jun 22 21:56:08 <lardman> ah, good to hear
Jun 22 21:56:14 <lardman> have you documented it anywhere?
Jun 22 21:57:07 <ssvb> lardman: I posted a link to this channel, I'm still experimenting with its performance
Jun 22 21:57:28 <lardman> ssvb: Am heading for bed now, but will have a look at the channel log tomorrow for your link
Jun 22 21:57:44 <ssvb> lardman: right now I'm verifying if instructions cache is enabled on DSP
Jun 22 21:58:17 <lardman> ssvb: lower level than I've been looking at; I look forward to seeing what you find
Jun 22 21:58:18 <ssvb> lardman: because I suspect that it might be not enabled
Jun 22 21:58:48 <lardman> got to go; will have a chat with you in the week
Jun 22 21:58:50 <lardman> night all
Jun 22 22:06:11 <Dekaritae> My N800 is stuck in a reboot loop again
Jun 22 22:06:22 <Dekaritae> Immediately after installing VIM and EmelFM2
Jun 22 22:08:36 <GeneralAntilles> You did something wrong, then.
Jun 22 22:09:12 <Dekaritae> I rebooted so that the change I made to matchbox.defs would take effect
Jun 22 22:10:12 <Jaffa> So your N800 is stuck is a reboot loop again, immediately after *editing the window manager's configuration files*. Nothing to do with the application's you've installed.
Jun 22 22:10:41 <Dekaritae> I edited them based on a post on the forums, which led me to assume that other people have tried this and had it succeed
Jun 22 22:10:53 <Jaffa> Dekaritae: disable the lifeguard reset using a flasher tool, fix the problem in matchbox.defs and try again.
Jun 22 22:10:59 <Dekaritae> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18920
Jun 22 22:11:08 <Jaffa> Dekaritae: pff, 1) never make changes blind, 2) never believe anything you read in a forum ;-)
Jun 22 22:11:40 <Dekaritae> This is making me appreciate Palm much more
Jun 22 22:11:52 <Jaffa> Where you couldn't hack around with the window manager?
Jun 22 22:12:04 <Dekaritae> What?
Jun 22 22:12:16 <Dekaritae> I just changed the DIALOGMODE=static to DIALOGMODE=free
Jun 22 22:12:45 <Jaffa> And how would you do that on Palm? You said you appreciated Palm a lot more after this.
Jun 22 22:13:02 * Jaffa 's experience of Palm OS was so brief and painful, I'm really interested.
Jun 22 22:13:28 <Dekaritae> In the sense that if you fuck up and render the device unbootable, you can completely restore from backups
Jun 22 22:13:39 <GeneralAntilles> You can do that here, too.
Jun 22 22:13:45 <acydlord> funny, you can do that on the tablet too
Jun 22 22:13:52 <Dekaritae> Rather than backed up user files and having the reinstall from packages
Jun 22 22:14:08 <GeneralAntilles> Woo, tar!
Jun 22 22:14:16 <acydlord> my n810 backs up everything to one of my servers twice a day
Jun 22 22:14:31 <GeneralAntilles> Palm had to do it that way because running out of battery meant you lost everything
Jun 22 22:14:38 <GeneralAntilles> or going through airport security
Jun 22 22:14:43 <Dekaritae> Which I can't do because that thing next door is blotting my wifi
Jun 22 22:14:52 <GeneralAntilles> Uh, change channels?
Jun 22 22:14:59 <Dekaritae> I've done that before
Jun 22 22:15:12 <acydlord> or plug in the usb cable like you have to do with a palm device
Jun 22 22:15:18 <Dekaritae> Channel 11 allows for wi-fi signal _sometimes_
Jun 22 22:15:27 <Dekaritae> Everything else is blot
Jun 22 22:15:28 <acydlord> pick up a mimo router
Jun 22 22:15:54 <Dekaritae> I'm thinking USB ethernet
Jun 22 22:16:12 <acydlord> or buy some copper mesh and make a faraday cage
Jun 22 22:16:19 <kkrusty> is there any mplayer frontend with decent support for playlists?
Jun 22 22:16:28 <acydlord> canola
Jun 22 22:17:53 <Dekaritae> Grr, I cannot download 2008HE from Nokia because it says my WLAN ID is invalid
Jun 22 22:19:12 <acydlord> just do what we did to get os2008 earlier
Jun 22 22:19:23 <Dekaritae> Eh
Jun 22 22:20:53 <Dekaritae> Fook it I will just flash it regular and be done with it
Jun 22 22:21:11 <Dekaritae> I am taking this as a sign that I should make a real computor if I wish to fook with linux
Jun 22 22:21:45 <acydlord> if you want to fully use linux, yes
Jun 22 22:22:51 <kkrusty> acydlord: hmm no playlists for flv files
Jun 22 22:31:06 <kkrusty> is there a secret pact to treat that question with silence? :)
Jun 22 22:32:26 <summatusmentis> is there a vnc viewer for maemo?
Jun 22 22:33:00 <GeneralAntilles> http://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=vnc+viewer+maemo
Jun 22 22:33:08 <summatusmentis> lol, alright alright
Jun 22 22:33:19 <summatusmentis> I didn't knwo if there was one in extras or nt
Jun 22 22:33:30 <GeneralAntilles> No, somebody needs to push that to Extras.
Jun 22 22:34:45 <acydlord> kkrusty, i didnt know that was a question, looked like a statement to me :p and to be honest, i've never even bothered to play flv files on my tablet
Jun 22 22:34:48 <Jaffa> We've not really got a clear policy on whether it's acceptable for a semi-actively maintained application to be pushed to extras by anyone not involved in its development. I suppose dropping the author "mind if I upload it" wouldn't get a "no" response, but then we're in the "what if the person who uploaded it, doesn't ever upload a newer version" situation.
Jun 22 22:35:11 <Jaffa> Oh, that gets us back to my ideas on auto-updating extras when the author releases something.
Jun 22 22:35:31 <GeneralAntilles> s/somebody/the guy that put it together/
Jun 22 22:35:32 <infobot> GeneralAntilles meant: No, the guy that put it together needs to push that to Extras.
Jun 22 22:35:47 <Jaffa> Better :-)
Jun 22 22:36:11 <Jaffa> Anyway, sleep. I already think I'm going to be dealing with work email and drinking a Red Bull on the train tomorrow morning.
Jun 22 22:36:17 <GeneralAntilles> What I actually meant to say was, "No, somebody needs to get the author to push that to Extras."
Jun 22 22:36:26 <kkrusty> acydlord: the FE that comes with mplayer seems to be able to play flv files. If canola is just a frontend then I guess its simply an act of allowing flvs through the filter
Jun 22 22:40:25 <summatusmentis> GeneralAntilles: that's awesome :) OS X on my n810 :-D
Jun 22 22:40:35 <GeneralAntilles> Slow though
Jun 22 22:40:56 <GeneralAntilles> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=194414&postcount=713 Where do people come up with this shit?
Jun 22 22:40:59 <summatusmentis> yes, but it'll be nice if I need to get something from my laptop and I'm not near it
Jun 22 22:42:04 <summatusmentis> why is that unreasonable?
Jun 22 22:42:34 <GeneralAntilles> Well, Fennec is still in "broken as shit" mode
Jun 22 22:42:46 <GeneralAntilles> and Nokia isn't licensing Opera anymore
Jun 22 22:43:50 <summatusmentis> ok, so licensing issues might get in the way, but the poster did have an 'both browsers would need to be not in alpha mode' disclaimer
Jun 22 22:44:10 <summatusmentis> but I tend to agree that broser choice is good(not that I care, I like microb)
Jun 22 22:44:25 * sinak gn ppl
Jun 22 22:44:37 <GeneralAntilles> Well, getting Opera for OS2008 costs $$$
Jun 22 22:45:09 <GeneralAntilles> So, the first question to answer is, why the hell would Nokia pay for Opera to be ported and licensed when they're already paying for a perfectly good browser?
Jun 22 22:45:27 <GeneralAntilles> Fennec is still a ways from actually being usable.
Jun 22 22:45:31 <GeneralAntilles> Besides, at boot up?
Jun 22 22:45:37 <GeneralAntilles> You have plenty of browser choice
Jun 22 22:45:46 <GeneralAntilles> but it's stupid to present that choice to clueless users at boot up.
Jun 22 22:45:55 <GeneralAntilles> They're just going to pick a random choice
Jun 22 22:45:59 <GeneralAntilles> or maybe the one they recognize
Jun 22 22:47:03 <summatusmentis> well, they do a 'what's your cell privder' dialog at first boot, with no exlanation
Jun 22 22:47:09 <summatusmentis> not any idfferent really
Jun 22 22:47:18 <GeneralAntilles> Yes it is
Jun 22 22:47:21 <summatusmentis> urgh... laggy interwebs
Jun 22 22:47:22 <GeneralAntilles> that question has a clear answer.
Jun 22 22:47:27 <GeneralAntilles> What cellphone provider do you use?
Jun 22 22:47:42 <summatusmentis> sure, but there's no reason given
Jun 22 22:48:37 <GeneralAntilles> It's a flawed analogy.
Jun 22 22:48:41 <GeneralAntilles> and a stupid idea. ;)
Jun 22 22:49:12 <summatusmentis> well, flawed analogy, maybe, more config options at first boot, maybe not
Jun 22 22:49:24 <summatusmentis> s/maybe not/maybe not a stupid idea/
Jun 22 22:49:24 <lcuk> best reason not to: space considerations.  BUT i would also like the choice to be available to user via installation from extras or something
Jun 22 22:49:24 <infobot> summatusmentis meant: well, flawed analogy, maybe, more config options at first boot, maybe not a stupid idea
Jun 22 22:49:46 <summatusmentis> lcuk: touche
Jun 22 22:49:47 <GeneralAntilles> Well, Opera's never going to happen unless Nokia pays up
Jun 22 22:49:52 <GeneralAntilles> which they have no reason to do.
Jun 22 22:49:59 <GeneralAntilles> and Fennec is still a long ways from being usable.
Jun 22 22:50:03 <GeneralAntilles> So the point is pretty moot.
Jun 22 22:50:13 <summatusmentis> wrt browsers, yes
Jun 22 22:50:28 <GeneralAntilles> Which is the point we're discussing.
Jun 22 22:50:30 <lcuk> would a webkit based browser work on here?
Jun 22 22:50:42 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, sure, but you'd have to get somebody to actually code it up.
Jun 22 22:50:53 <GeneralAntilles> You can already use WebKit + Epiphany
Jun 22 22:51:09 <lcuk> or find one of the cheap and cheerful test versions im sure someone has made throughout the internets
Jun 22 22:51:10 <GeneralAntilles> They both just suck right now.
Jun 22 22:51:30 <GeneralAntilles> So offering WebKit/Epiphany to new users at bootup would be retarded.
Jun 22 22:51:42 <GeneralAntilles> They pick that and their browser works like shit.
Jun 22 22:51:44 <lcuk> no i agree GeneralAntilles 100% with you
Jun 22 22:51:55 <lcuk> asking the user is pointless
Jun 22 22:52:15 <GeneralAntilles> The choice should be: decent-quality browsers are available to be installed from Extras
Jun 22 22:52:29 <lcuk> but if the user wants something else they could see just how bad they are (and it might be site specific) whether they work for them
Jun 22 22:52:30 <GeneralAntilles> and the user can pick their preferred browser just like on a desktop machine.
Jun 22 22:52:53 <GeneralAntilles> Nokia needs to revamp the dbus file handing a bit
Jun 22 22:53:04 <GeneralAntilles> So you can choose default applications to handle certain types of files
Jun 22 22:53:31 <lcuk> thats simply the default file explorer
Jun 22 22:54:34 <lcuk> "simply" is relative of course ;)
Jun 22 22:57:04 <Dekaritae> So after restoring from backup. It opens application manager, and installs nothing
Jun 22 22:57:36 <Dekaritae> How do I restore apps
Jun 22 22:58:03 <GeneralAntilles> What OS version?
Jun 22 22:58:07 <Dekaritae> OS2008
Jun 22 22:58:41 <GeneralAntilles> It's somewhere in the menu.
Jun 22 22:59:38 <Dekaritae> I  see nothing relevant
Jun 22 23:00:01 <GeneralAntilles> Look harder
Jun 22 23:00:03 <GeneralAntilles> it's definitely in there.
Jun 22 23:00:08 <Dekaritae> On the sidebar I have two Web navigators and no Contacts
Jun 22 23:00:19 <GeneralAntilles> Er, Application manager menu.
Jun 22 23:00:29 <GeneralAntilles> You definitely need to re-enable Extras first.
Jun 22 23:00:59 <Dekaritae> Ah yes
Jun 22 23:10:58 <acydlord> woops, soft reset explorer
Jun 23 00:37:29 <Deka> So what is the method by which to back up everything, including changes to system
Jun 23 00:37:51 <GeneralAntilles> tar
Jun 23 00:37:52 <GeneralAntilles> rsync
Jun 23 00:38:14 <Deka> And the same method by which to restore?
Jun 23 00:39:35 <Toba_> restoring is another matter.
Jun 23 00:39:41 <Toba_> I think.
Jun 23 00:39:43 <Toba_> perhaps.
Jun 23 00:44:22 <GeneralAntilles> untar
Jun 23 01:15:17 <summatusmentis> GeneralAntilles: how do you untar to the internal flash? just over your current system?
Jun 23 01:18:31 <GeneralAntilles> Just boot from something else then mount it and untar over it.
Jun 23 01:18:41 <summatusmentis> fair enough
Jun 23 01:18:54 <GeneralAntilles> Or just boot from a card
Jun 23 01:29:39 <lcuk> would the device be able to boot over the network? any idea what would be required to allow this
Jun 23 01:30:42 <summatusmentis> hmm... maybe over a usb network...
Jun 23 01:30:48 <GeneralAntilles> I'm sure you could set something up.
Jun 23 01:31:00 <GeneralAntilles> Better to just boot the initfs for these purposes, though.
Jun 23 01:31:24 <summatusmentis> will initfs allow access to the wireles card?
Jun 23 01:31:47 <lcuk> yer, but im thinking something along the lines of insert emergency recovery mem stick
Jun 23 01:32:16 <lcuk> something a normal user could download and prepare quite easily
Jun 23 01:33:31 <summatusmentis> like a chroot?
Jun 23 01:34:04 <lcuk> well that would generally need a running system to root into
Jun 23 01:34:20 <summatusmentis> tru
Jun 23 01:34:23 <summatusmentis> true*
Jun 23 01:34:27 <lcuk> i suppose its just stick to what works: flash
Jun 23 01:34:48 <summatusmentis> lol, there should be a better option... you know?
Jun 23 01:34:58 <lcuk> lowest common demominator, it should cure all ills without a major incident report
Jun 23 01:35:14 <GeneralAntilles> Flashing a tablet is a helluva lot faster than reinstalling the OS on my computer.
Jun 23 01:35:33 <summatusmentis> yeah, but generally you can repair the OS on your computer
Jun 23 01:35:52 <lcuk> perhaps its just the location here (people coming in with problems) but even regular users have to reflash far too often
Jun 23 01:36:26 <lcuk> and the most offending reason is "keeps restarting"
Jun 23 01:36:52 <GeneralAntilles> Meh, you can fix your tablet, too.
Jun 23 01:37:06 <GeneralAntilles> Part of it is the watchdogs are a little TOO vigilant.
Jun 23 01:37:12 <lcuk> not really, there is essentially no "safe mode" startup
Jun 23 01:37:25 <GeneralAntilles> Yes there is.
Jun 23 01:37:30 <GeneralAntilles> Flash a real initfs
Jun 23 01:37:38 <GeneralAntilles> Boom safemode
Jun 23 01:38:15 <lcuk> can joe windows user (still 95% of population?) do that with the flasher?
Jun 23 01:38:35 <GeneralAntilles> Meh, what would they do with a safemode anyway?
Jun 23 01:38:43 <GeneralAntilles> Boot it up and fix the Matchbox config file they messed up?
Jun 23 01:38:43 <lcuk> backup their files
Jun 23 01:38:58 <lcuk> it gives a user a chance to not lose everything
Jun 23 01:39:51 <lcuk> this machine is meant to be a replacement computer: ie one which CREATES data instead of just consuming it.  i know ive got valuable data i would not want to lose stored on here
Jun 23 01:40:44 <GeneralAntilles> It's not meant to be anything of the sort. ;)
Jun 23 01:40:48 <GeneralAntilles> It's an internet tablet
Jun 23 01:40:55 <newmaemouser> l  am trying to fix the potential corruption issue on the n810 but can't seem to find the memory card in the file manager.  I'm probably missing something simple, I know.
Jun 23 01:40:55 <GeneralAntilles> it's meant to browse the web, IM and email
Jun 23 01:41:36 <fysa> I have officially "switched."
Jun 23 01:41:41 <GeneralAntilles> To?
Jun 23 01:42:00 <fysa> Just bought my first real Mac..  17" MBP
Jun 23 01:42:06 <GeneralAntilles> Big'un
Jun 23 01:43:06 <GeneralAntilles> fysa, download Quicksilver first: http://docs.blacktree.com/quicksilver/what_is_quicksilver
Jun 23 01:43:52 <fysa> Quicksilver is pretty cool.  I used it for a couple of months on my "Hackintosh." :P
Jun 23 01:44:18 <GeneralAntilles> I can't use OS X without Quicksilver.
Jun 23 01:44:28 <fysa> I think QS would make a nice handheld interface.
Jun 23 01:46:15 <summatusmentis> - all the keyboard shortcuts
Jun 23 01:46:21 <summatusmentis> I've never fully learned QS
Jun 23 01:46:47 <fysa> er, with a decent keyboard. ;)
Jun 23 01:46:53 <fysa> autocomplete..
Jun 23 01:47:03 <GeneralAntilles> Hehe
Jun 23 01:47:10 <fysa> and plug-ins.
Jun 23 01:47:16 <fysa> i.e, "send .. to .. flickr"
Jun 23 01:47:21 <summatusmentis> that's true, I like the iTunes plug in
Jun 23 01:47:50 <fysa> could be faster than launching apps/waiting for GUI/then typing
Jun 23 01:47:51 <GeneralAntilles> You guys should check out Menuet for iTunes control.
Jun 23 01:49:42 <fysa> trying Linkinus..  seems nice so far.  can aggregate channels and supports growl.
Jun 23 01:49:50 <GeneralAntilles> Bleh
Jun 23 01:49:54 <fysa> but $20
Jun 23 01:49:57 <GeneralAntilles> Linkinus isn't up to snuff yet
Jun 23 01:50:01 <GeneralAntilles> Just go with Colloquy
Jun 23 01:50:16 <fysa> I would end up with X-Chat Aqua if this doesn't fly.. :/
Jun 23 01:50:31 <summatusmentis> GeneralAntilles: what does menuet do that QS iTnues doesn't?
Jun 23 01:50:50 <GeneralAntilles> Menuet does the growl notifications, and playback control
Jun 23 01:50:56 <GeneralAntilles> QS does the library searching
Jun 23 01:51:20 <summatusmentis> QS has a plugin that'll do play back control, and growl notifications(I think)
Jun 23 01:51:42 <GeneralAntilles> QS didn't work for me for some reason
Jun 23 01:51:47 <GeneralAntilles> So I bought Menuet
Jun 23 01:51:50 <GeneralAntilles> so meh :D
Jun 23 01:56:13 * timelyx shrugs
Jun 23 01:56:19 <timelyx> i only use ~4 apps on my mac
Jun 23 01:56:22 <timelyx> i don't need quicksilver
Jun 23 01:56:45 <GeneralAntilles> You don't make very good use of your computer. :P
Jun 23 01:56:48 <summatusmentis> My mac is my only computer, so I use it all the time
Jun 23 01:57:17 <timelyx> it runs firefox, camino, snak, safari, and xterm
Jun 23 01:57:22 <timelyx> is there more to a computer?
Jun 23 01:57:27 <timelyx> ok, that's 5 things
Jun 23 01:57:39 <GeneralAntilles> 3 of them browsers?
Jun 23 01:57:54 <GeneralAntilles> s/?/./
Jun 23 01:57:54 <infobot> GeneralAntilles meant: 3 of them browsers.
Jun 23 01:57:59 <timelyx> yeah well...
Jun 23 01:58:04 <GeneralAntilles> lol
Jun 23 01:58:45 * timelyx goes back to burying articles
Jun 23 01:58:55 <GeneralAntilles> Spite! Spite! Spite!
Jun 23 01:59:23 * timelyx grumbles
Jun 23 01:59:32 <timelyx> if i accidentally click on a heart, it's such a pain to bury
Jun 23 01:59:33 <GeneralAntilles> Seeing the single hate on the logo contest announcement the other day made me lol.
Jun 23 01:59:43 <timelyx> heh
Jun 23 01:59:47 <timelyx> can you find out who did that?
Jun 23 02:00:03 <GeneralAntilles> If you check the logs here
Jun 23 02:00:24 <timelyx> which server is it?
Jun 23 02:01:02 * timelyx has an account on maemo-midgard
Jun 23 02:01:45 <GeneralAntilles> Interesting
Jun 23 02:01:55 <GeneralAntilles> The "hate" disappeared.
Jun 23 02:01:56 <GeneralAntilles> https://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/maemo-org_logo_competition_is_open.html
Jun 23 02:03:40 <timelyx> i get points for thumbing articles, so why shouldn't i? :)
Jun 23 02:04:04 <timelyx> i see 4/1 for maemo logo
Jun 23 02:05:10 <GeneralAntilles> It's 5/0 here. . . . :\
Jun 23 02:07:18 <timelyx> oh darn
Jun 23 02:07:22 <timelyx> i need to make a new icon
Jun 23 02:07:29 <timelyx> swift has a logo from the old group
Jun 23 02:07:42 <timelyx> i'll probably use the Ma emo icon i posted
Jun 23 02:08:51 <timelyx> ok
Jun 23 02:50:35 <GAN800> Ugh, I think itT may finally have reached the end of its usefulness.
Jun 23 02:51:01 <summatusmentis> lol
Jun 23 02:51:09 <summatusmentis> maybe you should just be more tolerant :)
Jun 23 02:51:22 <GAN800> It's just be total shit for the past few weeks.
Jun 23 02:51:45 * GAN800 points the wife beater finger at summatusmentis 
Jun 23 02:51:55 <acydlord> i've noticed it's become a pool of people who dont know how to google lately
Jun 23 02:52:13 <GAN800> Yeah, it's gotten particularly bad.
Jun 23 02:52:43 <acydlord> or assinine requests like the one you linked earlier
Jun 23 02:54:11 <summatusmentis> GAN800: do you use the iphone browser agent?
Jun 23 02:54:41 <GAN800> I did for a while, but got tired of reduced-functionality browsing.
Jun 23 02:55:06 <GAN800> I might if it weren't an all-or-nothing proposition.
Jun 23 02:55:30 <GAN800> I'd like to use iPhone for google search, but not for some other stuff.
Jun 23 02:55:54 <acydlord> i use the brightkite and weather underground iphone pages
Jun 23 02:56:02 <acydlord> but those dont require the browser agent
Jun 23 02:56:45 <summatusmentis> gmail is sort of hard to use on the normal user-agent, as is facebook
Jun 23 02:56:59 <GAN800> lol facebook
Jun 23 02:57:02 <summatusmentis> that's the only reason I ask. That's probably more due to slow network connection at my house
Jun 23 02:57:19 <GAN800> That got lame when they let my sister get an account. :P
Jun 23 02:57:19 <acydlord> lol gmail as well
Jun 23 02:57:26 <summatusmentis> <3 gmail
Jun 23 02:57:27 <GAN800> Modest for gmail
Jun 23 02:57:34 <acydlord> yeah, modest is for mail
Jun 23 02:57:50 <acydlord> facebook ruined ut when they released an api
Jun 23 02:57:56 <summatusmentis> is modest usable? the chinook mail client I tried failed hard at large inboxes
Jun 23 02:58:09 <GAN800> That's osso-email
Jun 23 02:58:19 <acydlord> the only reason i used facebook was because it didnt have all the clutter and seizure inducing features that myspace has
Jun 23 02:58:20 <GAN800> acydlord, that too.
Jun 23 02:58:36 <GAN800> and now it does!
Jun 23 02:58:45 <acydlord> and now i just downright hate the fact of those style of social networking sites
Jun 23 02:58:51 <GAN800> I just wish I could delete my account.
Jun 23 02:58:52 <summatusmentis> GAN800: modest doesn't fail w/ large inboxes?
Jun 23 02:58:55 <acydlord> they are useless for anything other than friendwhoring
Jun 23 02:58:59 <summatusmentis> you can, on facebook
Jun 23 02:59:09 <acydlord> modest loaded my spam box
Jun 23 02:59:13 <acydlord> which was about 600 items
Jun 23 02:59:14 <GAN800> Depends on how large, but it's a lot better than osso-email
Jun 23 02:59:28 <summatusmentis> acydlord: I disagree. Useful for people who try to keep in contact w/ people all over the country
Jun 23 02:59:36 <GAN800> It did fine with my 4000-message gmail account
Jun 23 02:59:42 <acydlord> i keep contact with people all over the country
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jun 23 02:59:56 2008