**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 11 02:59:57 2008 Dec 11 03:22:24 lol, Mr. Debian fanboy is back http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/2008/12/10/bugsmaemoorg-reorganization-done/ <_< Dec 11 03:39:36 * johnx starts to appreciate life on the console Dec 11 03:43:12 oh blarg, i think the fw image i downloaded earlier is corrupt Dec 11 03:43:41 acydlord, you realize you can just update through the application manager, right? Dec 11 03:43:43 ~ssu Dec 11 03:43:44 ssu is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/SSU Dec 11 03:44:04 my image is too old to update on the device Dec 11 03:44:15 30-2? Dec 11 03:44:25 That's only one release old Dec 11 03:45:07 it wasnt giving me the option to update Dec 11 03:46:10 Then you either removed osso-software-version or the version string wasn't updated (happens sometimes) Dec 11 03:46:36 What are you on, an N800? Dec 11 03:49:09 my internet connection seems to have developed leprocy lately Dec 11 03:50:20 Are you on an N800? Dec 11 03:51:23 i'm on a pc at the moment Dec 11 03:51:34 i think my isp is throttling my connection Dec 11 03:51:42 You have an N800 rather than an N810, though, right? Dec 11 03:51:43 works fine till i'm trying to download anything Dec 11 03:52:25 i've got an N810 Dec 11 03:52:41 Try an apt-get install osso-software-version-rx44 Dec 11 03:53:03 i'll try that Dec 11 03:53:18 i think when i installed screenrotate it probably pooched that update path Dec 11 03:53:34 Ah Dec 11 03:53:39 Try an apt-get install osso-software-version-rx44-unlocked then Dec 11 03:53:52 That should get you where you need to be Dec 11 03:54:19 i'll try that once i get this connectivity issue resolved Dec 11 04:18:56 trying to figure out xorg and touch screen input on my 770 Dec 11 04:20:41 qwerty12_n800: you there? Dec 11 04:34:54 anyone here? Dec 11 04:36:22 o/ Dec 11 04:39:04 hi Dec 11 04:39:40 how's it going pupnik ? Dec 11 04:41:52 okay Dec 11 04:42:09 legal messes, chilling in irc for relaxation Dec 11 04:43:15 and you r2d2rogers ? btw the R2D2 sounds were made with an ARP2600 Dec 11 04:43:24 ewww yeah I can see that Dec 11 04:43:28 good here Dec 11 04:43:40 playing with Sts's mer stuff on my 770 Dec 11 04:44:13 I've tried to figure out how you'd type some of those sounds into IRC, but didn't come up with much satisfying Dec 11 04:44:25 I like the 2600 part of the model though Dec 11 04:44:32 BWEOOP! mwooooo... Dec 11 04:45:11 * r2d2rogers looks up from the wikipedia article on the ARP1600, " Nice! " Dec 11 04:45:33 I can hear that bit in my head Dec 11 04:45:35 http://obliq.net/museum/arp2600.htm Dec 11 04:45:48 i had one for a week. hardly slept Dec 11 04:46:39 I need to get a better toy budget ;) Dec 11 04:49:29 might as well just play with a software synth for free Dec 11 04:49:34 pupnik: I don't suppose you'd have any insight on the touchscreen driver for a 770 under xorg would you? Dec 11 04:49:39 ::nods:: Dec 11 04:49:54 you mean the xsp extensions, pressure etc? Dec 11 04:49:56 thinking I have the wrong event or evdev isn't happy Dec 11 04:50:08 at this point just getting any input Dec 11 04:50:36 (**) Option "TslibDevice" "/dev/input/event3" Dec 11 04:50:36 ts_open failed (device=/dev/input/event3) Dec 11 04:51:35 no idea about that stuff Dec 11 04:51:52 cool Dec 11 04:51:54 no worries Dec 11 04:52:14 just wishing the timezones worked out better for asking people in my evening time Dec 11 04:54:35 I think I found it Dec 11 04:54:48 cat /dev/mouse0 gives output hen I hit the screen Dec 11 04:55:00 s/hen/when/ Dec 11 04:55:00 r2d2rogers meant: cat /dev/mouse0 gives output when I hit the screen Dec 11 05:29:50 r2d2rogers: hint, it may simply be udev not running Dec 11 05:30:10 hmm Dec 11 05:30:24 no /dev/input/event3 caused by that? Dec 11 05:30:32 hints on how to make udev run? Dec 11 05:30:53 r2d2rogers: edit init script of it and remove old kernel check Dec 11 05:31:59 im gonna nap another hour Dec 11 05:32:24 Stskeeps: thanks for the hints Dec 11 06:46:18 jauntys bluetooth management is a lot better than the one i had in deblet Dec 11 06:48:17 moo all Dec 11 06:50:13 moo Dec 11 07:24:07 I installled powerlaunch, now mer boot stops to "begin main loop" Dec 11 08:41:47 Khertan2, Khertan_WebIrc5: you here? Dec 11 09:31:25 Hi there Dec 11 09:47:45 Hi Dec 11 09:48:46 what upstart version will the next gen maemo be using? Dec 11 09:59:49 Meiz_n810: yeah, powerlaunch needs adapating Dec 11 10:02:01 * Stskeeps ponders Dec 11 10:08:57 keesj: no one has any idea what version of a library will be used Dec 11 10:09:23 but the sdk was released Dec 11 10:09:36 no Dec 11 10:09:41 an alpha sdk was released Dec 11 10:09:44 or pre alpha or something Dec 11 10:09:48 pre-alpha even Dec 11 10:09:52 that's not a contract to use a given version of a something Dec 11 10:10:00 morning GeneralAntilles, ta for copy-edit Dec 11 10:10:05 it's merely an indication of technology that'll probably be included Dec 11 10:10:09 not the version level Dec 11 10:10:10 Upstart isn't even in there yet, I don't think. Dec 11 10:10:17 don't think so either Dec 11 10:10:20 i actually forgot to look Dec 11 10:10:21 :P Dec 11 10:10:24 that is what I am interested in (the indication) Dec 11 10:10:47 keesj, it's just too early to tell. Dec 11 10:10:47 anyway, i started pulling in an xref for fremantle Dec 11 10:10:55 but i kinda got stuck (ENEEDSLEEP) Dec 11 10:10:56 I guess upstart is not really needed in the sdk is maemo doesn't use it to much Dec 11 10:11:17 it might be along with the OHM and alpha SDK release Dec 11 10:12:39 but even if an alpha release has a component Dec 11 10:12:45 that's not a contract on the version of the component Dec 11 10:12:54 if a newer version comes and is needed, it might be picked Dec 11 10:13:38 I just have been bussy with upstart the last year or so and was ready to share some problems :P Dec 11 10:13:54 * timeless ponders Dec 11 10:14:04 keesj: like? Dec 11 10:14:15 freemantle seems to expose matchbox 1 and matchbox 2 atm Dec 11 10:14:23 but i can assure you both won't be used :) Dec 11 10:15:07 Well, it does mean we can use a Diablo UI on Fremantle Dec 11 10:15:21 why? Dec 11 10:15:21 well I tried the upgrade to upstart 0.5 and found is imature Dec 11 10:15:49 timeless, because all the work to port it is done. Dec 11 10:21:23 Stskeeps: for example the new inictl->dbus->upstart thing Dec 11 10:26:18 you can only run one window manager at a time :) Dec 11 10:27:55 What I mean to say is, the Diablo UI already being available on Fremantle makes running "Fremantle" on hardware without accelerated OpenGL a helluva lot easier. Dec 11 10:29:34 i suppose one could say that the people @nokia took advantage of that in order to not port all apps to fremantle at the same time :) Dec 11 10:30:18 fwiw, the accelerated opengl stuff atm basically means that the desktop can crash that much faster Dec 11 10:30:26 (something like 5 web pages) Dec 11 10:30:28 They didn't want to release the Fremantle UI early (I'm sure everybody knows exactly what kind of reaction that usually brings), so in order to have a UI for the alphas we get Diablo. Dec 11 10:31:16 X-Fade, ping? Dec 11 10:32:10 * timeless curses Dec 11 10:34:39 GeneralAntilles: http://rafb.net/p/rwpovf75.html <- any comments before i send it off? Dec 11 10:35:07 Oh, right. Dec 11 10:35:14 "solely by community effort" Dec 11 10:35:16 Drop that Dec 11 10:35:20 alright Dec 11 10:35:23 It's neither true nor useful. :P Dec 11 10:35:45 Maybe say "primarily" Dec 11 10:36:06 *nod* Dec 11 10:36:08 Or just end it with "platform from Nokia." Dec 11 10:36:55 Where did you pick up ", - "? Dec 11 10:37:18 fwiw, i hate SCM Dec 11 10:37:21 it sounds like scum Dec 11 10:37:25 what's wrong w/ VCS? Dec 11 10:37:30 nothing Dec 11 10:37:38 * aquatix uses vcs Dec 11 10:37:46 => Stskeeps Dec 11 10:37:48 lot better dan scum indeed Dec 11 10:38:30 Stskeeps, if you're putting that on itT, remember to [url=http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint_New]blueprint[/url] Dec 11 10:39:22 line 30: "The logs will be made available after the meeting has ended." Dec 11 10:39:57 ". . . officially start in January 2009, but some work is to be done before Dec 11 10:39:58 that such as repository, infrastructure, developer tools and organization." Dec 11 10:40:03 That just needs help. Dec 11 11:15:25 GeneralAntilles: alright Dec 11 11:15:49 "developer, - everyone" Dec 11 11:15:56 Just drop the comma there Dec 11 11:16:06 k Dec 11 11:16:23 morning Dec 11 11:16:27 Hi, lardman. Dec 11 11:16:34 hi GA Dec 11 11:17:04 * lardman looks at Blackwell's offer of the day and wonders why there are never any books.. Dec 11 11:17:33 GeneralAntilles: I wonder what build system you plan to use (are you keeping .deb stuff?) . Dec 11 11:19:29 keesj, talk to Stskeeps, I'm just the community guy. :P Dec 11 11:20:09 The theme of the week for me seems to be beetles. Dec 11 11:20:20 There's a weevil wandering across the top of my monitor for some reason. Dec 11 11:20:26 bug infestation? Dec 11 11:20:35 Stskeeps, not really. Dec 11 11:20:36 or going insane from studying for finals? :P Dec 11 11:20:42 Weirdly obscure beetles. Dec 11 11:20:43 Hehe Dec 11 11:20:45 Could be that. :P Dec 11 11:21:16 i know the feeling. finishing up this semester's reports these days. :P Dec 11 11:21:21 weevil today, tiger beetle staring at me yesterday and a giant ass rhinoceros beetle sitting on my welcome mat two days ago Dec 11 11:21:33 Just 2 more days and 2 exams Dec 11 11:21:38 i have a ladybird living in my bathroom. Dec 11 11:22:00 am astonished it's able to survive, so i let it live and talk to it once in a while :P Dec 11 11:22:09 lol Dec 11 11:22:16 "ladybird" had to look that up. Dec 11 11:22:26 We call 'em "ladybugs" over here. Dec 11 11:22:59 yeah, british english Dec 11 11:23:34 We buy 'em refrigerated to take care of aphids in the garden every once and a while. Dec 11 11:30:48 they can survive freezing? interesting Dec 11 11:31:01 For a bit Dec 11 11:35:10 refrigerated! Dec 11 11:36:29 if the crops grown were grown such that they were suitable to the growing conditions..ladybugs dont have to be bought frozen Dec 11 11:36:39 they woud be there in the garden for free lol Dec 11 11:37:55 GeneralAntilles: posted Dec 11 11:39:49 * GeneralAntilles isn't growing crops. Dec 11 11:40:46 what do you grow general? Dec 11 11:41:29 "Anti-retroviral drugs used to treat HIV/Aids are being bought and smoked by teenagers in South Africa to get high." Dec 11 11:41:30 Nothing lately. Dec 11 11:41:43 RST38h: better than lighter gas or glue.. Dec 11 11:41:44 :P Dec 11 11:41:52 Sts: Who knows... Dec 11 11:45:12 Brain solvents Dec 11 11:47:32 ...and some FDA news: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16207-gun-for-the-disabled-classed-as-medical-device.html Dec 11 11:53:23 replace image on redraw Dec 11 11:53:34 sorry, wrong window Dec 11 11:53:55 animating something? =) Dec 11 11:56:53 similar Dec 11 11:56:59 keesj: regarding build systems, why were you asking? Dec 11 11:57:01 wanting to resize a backbuffer pixmap Dec 11 11:57:21 just wonder if OE was used Dec 11 11:57:31 which for some reason unknown to me sends a size-request Dec 11 11:57:34 I was looking at that, Mamona is an option Dec 11 11:57:42 and breaks my whole scheme into an infinite loop Dec 11 11:57:43 and indeed would be my preference Dec 11 11:58:21 * Stskeeps really wondered why mamona didn't become more Dec 11 11:58:31 it had the nokia connections and all i think Dec 11 11:58:42 bergie, ping? Dec 11 11:59:05 Stskeeps: it was targetting a future gcc & libc Dec 11 11:59:18 Stskeeps: though that may now be the current one Dec 11 11:59:29 http://maemo.org/community/council/on_repositories/ Dec 11 12:00:31 RST38h: +1 for the company Dec 11 12:00:36 "It's something that they need to assist them in daily living," Dec 11 12:01:19 GeneralAntilles: good article Dec 11 12:02:42 GeneralAntilles: pong Dec 11 12:02:49 well, I could redo the whole whizzbang by not using a backbuffer, but that will kill perfomance Dec 11 12:02:50 (like epitext does) Dec 11 12:03:05 bergie, I may or may not have broken Events http://maemo.org/news/events/ Dec 11 12:03:35 GeneralAntilles: what do you mean? Dec 11 12:04:22 bergie, well, the new event isn't appearing on the front page and if you click the link it sends you to http://maemo.org/news/events// Dec 11 12:05:06 GeneralAntilles: let me fix the URL... the calendar URL name generator is broken in .2 Dec 11 12:05:11 but has been fixed since :-) Dec 11 12:05:21 Thanks! Dec 11 12:06:05 http://maemo.org/news/events/mer-project-bootstrapping-meeting/ Dec 11 12:14:10 * Stskeeps notes to himself he's been hacking a little too much at maemo when he can remember the url for diablo updates, how to authenticate, and the password, by heart. Dec 11 12:16:18 :) Dec 11 12:18:05 just looking through packages and pondering how many could actually potentially be ABI compatible with mer already Dec 11 12:18:26 abi or api? Dec 11 12:18:30 abi Dec 11 12:18:34 the closed source ones Dec 11 12:18:42 due to the gcc change then? Dec 11 12:18:58 was there a change in ABI gcc3->4? Dec 11 12:19:03 I thought not Dec 11 12:19:27 well i'm speaking of a scenario where nokia could provide let's say, hwr, for people to install Dec 11 12:19:34 pipe dream, probably Dec 11 12:19:57 ~hwr Dec 11 12:19:58 hwr is, like, HandWriting Recognition. Dec 11 12:20:06 ah, well that's api then isn't it? Dec 11 12:20:15 api is if you can recompile things i guess Dec 11 12:20:21 abi is when it runs when you just get handed binaries Dec 11 12:20:44 hmm, abi is binary interface, how params are passed to fns, how the linker names fns, etc Dec 11 12:20:51 ok Dec 11 12:20:58 as in which registers the params are passed in, etc Dec 11 12:21:07 api is names of fns and the like Dec 11 12:21:15 in any case, let's say we were able to on nokia devices, drop in nokia's ICD. Dec 11 12:21:24 yes, that would be ideal Dec 11 12:21:44 but we'll see how well it works Dec 11 12:21:54 and that probably definately needs discussion with nokia :P Dec 11 12:22:27 well, perhaps, would be nice to just be able to install from the Fremantle repo, nothing to prevent that Dec 11 12:22:33 yeah, true Dec 11 12:25:07 at least it's less of a pipe dream than "hmm, nokia, could you take X differentiated application and compile in this SDK" Dec 11 12:25:27 yeah, well that was never something I was thinking of Dec 11 12:25:41 and put out on the nokia-tablet-only passworded repo Dec 11 12:25:59 has anyone checked to see if the Fremantle binaries are compiled for the Cortex? Dec 11 12:26:16 I'm not sure how off the top of my head, "file" doesn't do it Dec 11 12:26:27 objdump maybe Dec 11 12:29:00 just a thought, as if it's compiled for the Cortex any ideas of installing from the repo on the n8x0 go out the window Dec 11 12:29:05 yeah Dec 11 12:29:18 i guess you can see it on sdk Dec 11 12:29:18 sec Dec 11 12:29:19 but it's probably not from past experience Dec 11 12:32:00 lardman: it depends Dec 11 12:32:34 lardman: Does Cortex still use the same ABI? Are there any "special" instructions compiler makes use of? Dec 11 12:32:46 yes, new instructions Dec 11 12:32:53 but are they used? Dec 11 12:32:58 lardman: i think i saw NEON mentioned in some libraries at least Dec 11 12:32:59 ARM is backwards compatible Dec 11 12:33:15 I mean, if it is just more of the vector stuff, then it is probably not used by the compiler anyway Dec 11 12:33:15 yeah, they will be used sometimes, will have to see Dec 11 12:33:32 not sure, will have to look at the ARM site docs and see what's been added really Dec 11 12:34:59 lardman: but besides that, asking them to take a source package, compile it in a sdk, may not be a pipe dream, if it has to deal with fremantle->n8x0.. but we'll see Dec 11 12:35:26 its a thing worth considering Dec 11 12:35:55 Sts: Sorry to ask but why has this problem occured in the first place? Dec 11 12:36:14 RST38h: .. cos it's closed source? :P Dec 11 12:36:21 None of us (except for you, General, and your Beagles) have Cortex yet Dec 11 12:36:39 RST38h: my initial focus was on the nokia differentiation thins Dec 11 12:36:53 and possible use of them on tablets Dec 11 12:36:58 ah Dec 11 12:37:20 so, Nokia produces another closed source app for fremantle and you want to run it on Mer/earlier hw? Dec 11 12:37:48 my focus was mainly on diablo things on mer, but updates to these from fremantle could be interesting too Dec 11 12:37:59 pipe dream, but interesting thought Dec 11 12:40:51 it has Tumb-2, if that's used Dec 11 12:40:59 thumb even Dec 11 12:41:24 Thumb-2 technology is featured in the processor, and in all ARMv7 architecture-based processors. Dec 11 12:41:27 what is new in the -2 version? Dec 11 12:41:53 iirc you can mix thumb and normal without changing mode, something like that Dec 11 12:42:32 which isn't all too useful on its own Dec 11 12:42:32 ah cool Dec 11 12:42:37 no it is Dec 11 12:42:43 because either you want to save space Dec 11 12:42:46 or do high performance Dec 11 12:42:48 :) Dec 11 12:42:59 http://www.arm.com/products/CPUs/archi-thumb2.html Dec 11 12:43:03 thumb often has higher performance Dec 11 12:43:09 weird, it shouldn't Dec 11 12:43:32 shorter instructions so you can get more in the cache? Dec 11 12:44:01 AStorm: hint: memory read in ARM architecture is usually times slower than an opcode execution Dec 11 12:44:10 :> Dec 11 12:44:12 yes, cache Dec 11 12:44:31 anyway, new thumb should be very fast Dec 11 12:46:19 hmm, looking at the white paper - speed + lower power, I wouldn't be surprised if thumb-2 is the default Dec 11 12:46:37 iirc OE now builds thumb as the default for the Beagle doesn't it? Dec 11 12:47:28 there is a thumb2 armv6 too Dec 11 12:47:33 it's optional though in v6 Dec 11 12:47:41 and OMAP2 doesn't have it Dec 11 12:47:53 is the arm1136 arm6? I thought it was arm7? Dec 11 12:48:26 it is arm6 Dec 11 12:48:26 * lardman dislikes the confusion between ARM hw and language versions Dec 11 12:48:30 ok Dec 11 12:48:42 arm6t2 is arm1156t2 Dec 11 12:49:10 ok, that's when thumb-2 was introduced so the ARM site said Dec 11 12:50:59 AStorm: ARM chips come with 8kB..32kB caches - no match for modern apps Dec 11 12:51:05 is any one good at xmodmap keycodes for the n810 Dec 11 12:51:29 blackdeath: I did something with it. Dec 11 12:52:15 but I think they've done something truly weird, I didn't get any sense at all for the keys under the scandinavian setup if I modified, but if I copied the *exact* same to german, it worked. Dec 11 12:52:32 afternoon johnx Dec 11 12:52:45 hey Dec 11 12:52:47 do you know how i would add a cht + insert for a past function Dec 11 12:52:50 Who wants to bet it was gonna be Cortex A7 until they found the numbers matched? ;) Dec 11 12:53:22 oh dear god Dec 11 12:53:26 3d mania christmas edition Dec 11 12:53:33 :D Dec 11 12:53:52 so nice to see people making really classy themes Dec 11 12:54:19 Beautiful! https://garage.maemo.org/frs/download.php/4978/homesshot.jpg Dec 11 12:54:20 Can't be as bad as the official valentine theme ;) http://breet.com/maemo/valentine.png Dec 11 12:54:30 thumb opcodes are beneficial in a space constrained system because by default they take up much less space than unoptimized full arm opcodes - however careful use of the fullopcodes can yeald much higher performance bec ause each opcode can do more steps in a single code Dec 11 12:54:33 blackdeath: sorry, been a while. And I forgot to backup the config file stuff before I reflashed ;P Dec 11 12:54:40 X-Fade: omg ponies Dec 11 12:54:51 or something Dec 11 12:54:53 that's truely sickening Dec 11 12:54:54 :P Dec 11 12:55:00 Stskeeps: Officially released by Nokia, not the slashdot one ;) Dec 11 12:55:04 cuz not being able to past stuff in the terminal is really anoying, right now i have to use the menu to past Dec 11 12:55:13 I'm amazed that I haven't gone blind after 3 years of Nokia themes. Dec 11 12:55:22 The OS2005, 2006 and 2007 ones were truly horrific. Dec 11 12:55:32 i kinda like os2008 ones Dec 11 12:55:42 OS2008 is the first to have decent themes Dec 11 12:55:45 Stskeeps: yeah, me too Dec 11 12:55:46 you've not gone blind, but you have hairy palms Dec 11 12:55:53 thx lcuk2 i will look into that Dec 11 12:55:57 Though I'd argue that Echo is the only really good one out of the lot. Dec 11 12:56:23 johnx: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint_New <- reading material btw Dec 11 12:56:27 * johnx really liked the earlier planktons Dec 11 12:56:36 :shudder: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=466&stc=1&d=1192568639 Dec 11 12:56:38 Stskeeps: will do Dec 11 12:56:40 (now with bootstrapping tasks) Dec 11 12:56:47 johnx, OS2007 Plankton was really nice. Dec 11 12:56:59 thumb opcodes are closer to "standard" that compilers have been building for for years - the arm 32bit combos are more like functions and a lot of the time end up underutilized, so waste space Dec 11 12:57:30 GeneralAntilles: ew indeed Dec 11 12:57:45 lcuk2: that's why there will be ARMv7M Dec 11 12:57:49 with thumb-2 only Dec 11 12:57:54 OS2006 had the berry themes Dec 11 12:57:56 a nice variant would have no bw compat Dec 11 12:58:12 http://themehackers.maemobox.org/wp-content/gallery/screenshots/screenshot08.png <- scaringily enough the XP theme works .. okay, on a tablet. Dec 11 12:58:28 i'll be back if anyone likes pentesting take a look at my blog B1ackdeath.blogspot.com iv listed a bunch of tools that work =p Dec 11 12:59:13 * aquatix should look into making a nice clean theme himself Dec 11 12:59:30 There were a lot more themes for OS2006 Dec 11 12:59:34 Most of them sucked, but still. Dec 11 12:59:34 grrrrrs @ pentesting Dec 11 12:59:51 While a bit geeky, the LCARS theme really shows you what can be done ;) Dec 11 12:59:52 i guess kontorri's theme maker helps on it these days Dec 11 12:59:57 X-Fade: yeah Dec 11 12:59:59 it's kinda neat Dec 11 13:00:05 but not entirely my taste :) Dec 11 13:00:06 "network penetration testing" not testing the touchscreen pen handling Dec 11 13:02:08 Morngin Dec 11 13:02:12 for some reason, black backgrounds look horrible on LCD screens Dec 11 13:02:18 esp. on LCD transflective screens like n810's Dec 11 13:02:23 Stskeeps: wow. getting all big and organized? Dec 11 13:02:31 only when brightness is wayy up Dec 11 13:02:37 johnx: got to .. else it's going to keel over and die. or i am Dec 11 13:02:37 johnx: got to .. else it's going to keel over and die. or :P Dec 11 13:02:44 .. wtf irssi. Dec 11 13:02:52 lcuk2: I mean, no Dec 11 13:02:54 AStorm: yeah, contrast isn't as good then Dec 11 13:02:58 always, when sun is shining on the screen Dec 11 13:03:01 contrast too low :) Dec 11 13:03:04 however, i like fbreader in black with white font Dec 11 13:03:17 ahhh yes, i like the way the colors wash out leaving greyscale :) Dec 11 13:04:13 Stskeeps: as long as we can actually find people who have a clue at how to manage a project Dec 11 13:04:14 anyway, theres a db crisis here that cow-orker has b0rkened i suppose i need to put on my sqlserver hat :) Dec 11 13:06:20 * aquatix wonders what's up with people creating Mac-os themes for all kinds of OS'es and devices Dec 11 13:08:34 aquatix: mac envy Dec 11 13:09:09 johnx: i suspect there are some personalities in community that could be useful Dec 11 13:09:50 lcuk2: btw, will timed, reduced FPS updates reduce CPU use nicely, or not? Dec 11 13:10:39 johnx: and if there's some people who don't notice, i'll prolly prod them and ask if they're interested Dec 11 13:14:22 http://tabletui.wordpress.com/ <- could be interesting Dec 11 13:16:04 though it kinda looks stalled Dec 11 13:16:23 yeah, he's active on forums still though, i think Dec 11 13:16:57 mer's a bit of a wake up call to the community / a loudspeaker for which we can have a bit stronger voice on how we'd like to see the tablets :P Dec 11 13:19:10 and not start completely from scratch Dec 11 13:19:31 .. i still haven't found out where i fit in my blueprint either, yet :P Dec 11 13:19:59 heh Dec 11 13:20:11 Anyone every used DirectFB? Dec 11 13:20:21 when it's all written up it looks pretty overwhelming, huh? Dec 11 13:20:43 yes and no.. it's actually very small steps needed to get the thing running Dec 11 13:20:55 many of the components exist already, activities Dec 11 13:21:24 just trying to wrap those pre-existing activities into having a higher purpose Dec 11 13:21:28 right, but starting to talk about teams and team leaders makes it seem pretty imposing Dec 11 13:21:33 true Dec 11 13:21:50 i guess 'pioneers' make better sense Dec 11 13:21:50 :P Dec 11 13:22:06 just a thought. though the organization will probably help in the long run Dec 11 13:22:25 you know, this looks kinda cool: http://faceted.wordpress.com/2008/09/21/preview-of-our-new-maemo-theme/ Dec 11 13:22:31 I hope Nokia doesn't complete ignore it. Dec 11 13:22:43 I'd really rather see Mer and Maemo converge rather than diverge Dec 11 13:22:59 GeneralAntilles: yeah Dec 11 13:23:14 GeneralAntilles: well so far it looks good, AFAICT Dec 11 13:23:15 GeneralAntilles: my personal intention is that they complement eachother, maybe helping nokia transforming as well Dec 11 13:24:05 mer doesn't exist without the maemo components, so Dec 11 13:24:09 GeneralAntilles: Nokia fixed their package names in svn, so in fact fremantle and mer are closer in some ways than fremantle and diablo Dec 11 13:24:38 General: The logical thing is to assume that Nokia will ignore it. Dec 11 13:24:49 General: And if does not, celebrate. Dec 11 13:24:56 s/does/it does/ Dec 11 13:24:56 RST38h meant: General: And if it does not, celebrate. Dec 11 13:25:14 well, why should they ignore it instead of taking the good stuff from it? Dec 11 13:25:16 :) Dec 11 13:25:24 RST38h, well, they're already NOT ignoring it. Dec 11 13:25:25 it's cheap, as in free Dec 11 13:25:47 RST38h: at least i've had conversations about Mer with qgil, so that always helps, and the existence of the invitation helps too Dec 11 13:26:03 Sts: Conversation with Quim is not indicative of anything Dec 11 13:26:07 that's true Dec 11 13:26:07 AStorm: well, some of Mer's good stuff might actually fit in with Nokia's idea of Maemo... Dec 11 13:26:44 RST38h: but changes to make packages work right in upstream debuntu is Dec 11 13:26:45 Sts: The historically observing way of Nokia not ignoring you is hiring you as a contract employee Dec 11 13:26:53 we need a nice HSPA modem in it :) Dec 11 13:27:12 obviously, with proper cdc_acm driver Dec 11 13:27:18 s/observing/observed/ shit I completely suck at this Dec 11 13:27:21 RST38h: whether it's because of mer or because they want to be closer to upstream it doesn't really matter Dec 11 13:27:44 yes, as long as the direction is good Dec 11 13:27:53 johnx: They want to build a product that sells. The rest (Mer, upstream, etc) does not really matter to them Dec 11 13:28:22 johnx: Do not approach this from the viewpoint of a Linux packager. Because Nokia does not. Dec 11 13:28:36 RST38h: well duh. but they also need happy devs and users who aren't giving them bad press at every opportunity Dec 11 13:28:50 johnx: Not as much as thye need to sell the product Dec 11 13:29:11 johnx: Happy devs is not even a secondary goal Dec 11 13:29:14 those two components are *part* of selling the product :p Dec 11 13:29:19 * Stskeeps 'd buy a tablet with mer on it, even with nokia differentiations Dec 11 13:29:22 johnx: minorparts Dec 11 13:29:57 lxsession segfauls in mer Dec 11 13:29:59 RST38h: I don't attempt to evaluate their motivations, just their actions Dec 11 13:30:00 johnx: users not giving them bad press is in fact a secondary goal but they do not need the above things for that Dec 11 13:30:20 RST38h: all I'm saying is what I have seen so far Dec 11 13:30:26 johnx: Yes, but you can't guess their actions correctly if you do not appreciate their motivation Dec 11 13:30:45 RST38h: well, the integration will save them some money in R&D Dec 11 13:30:51 so... Dec 11 13:31:08 that's why I try not to rely on predicting their actions Dec 11 13:31:22 AStorm: It will fist cost them money and then they will suddenly find that the cutting-edge packages require more support Dec 11 13:31:34 cutting-edge? not really Dec 11 13:31:38 just take a snapshot Dec 11 13:32:00 RST38h: on the other hand, they get a lot of free testing Dec 11 13:32:05 less building for them that way, and no more support Dec 11 13:32:12 and yes, free testing Dec 11 13:32:31 (who said that open source comes with support anyway? i always wondered that) Dec 11 13:32:32 Sts: You may have noticed that they do not use i to full potential Dec 11 13:32:49 RST38h: they already *did* lots of integration and package fixing. even if they stop now things already look much better Dec 11 13:32:58 Sts: A lot of pretty serious bugzilla reports get rejected or ignored Dec 11 13:33:12 happens on any bugzilla... Dec 11 13:33:13 RST38h: i still need the statistic of how many bug reports are towards open source packages.. Dec 11 13:33:26 Sts: Fine example is a report on keyboard lag Dec 11 13:33:36 keyboard lag -> kernel Dec 11 13:33:38 Still marked as "unconfirmed" :) Dec 11 13:33:45 and the kernel was stalled by closed driver Dec 11 13:33:55 AStorm: Most likely not, looks more like GTK events Dec 11 13:34:03 well, not Dec 11 13:34:15 it's kernel scheduler Dec 11 13:34:21 AStorm: noone kept people from looking in GTK or kernel, and recompiling kernel/GTK to check if it fixes Dec 11 13:34:24 I've been there already Dec 11 13:34:26 happens to a certain extent with usb keyboards but not as bad Dec 11 13:34:39 upgrading kernel was impossible until now Dec 11 13:34:46 also, it required a rebuild of whole Xomap Dec 11 13:34:48 :P Dec 11 13:34:50 AStorm: Possible. Then, browserd hanging the whole system can also be traced to the scheduler Dec 11 13:34:58 AStorm: much easier in mer now :P Dec 11 13:34:59 more or less Dec 11 13:35:12 Stskeeps: see? :> Dec 11 13:35:45 johnx: it happens with all keyboards, as far as I can tell from the comments Dec 11 13:36:05 it happens when CPU is loaded Dec 11 13:36:10 johnx: and it is not the only bug like that in there Dec 11 13:36:11 :> Dec 11 13:36:14 yep Dec 11 13:36:16 RST38h: mer also has the advantage of being what community/users want, not business perspective Dec 11 13:36:29 it happens because kernel doesn't schedule apps fairly Dec 11 13:36:38 which was fixed in 2.6.23 with new scheduler Dec 11 13:36:39 Sts: Mer still does not have full Maemo functionality, right? Dec 11 13:36:51 RST38h: define "full" Dec 11 13:36:52 RST38h: depends on what you define as maemo functionality, but no, not yet Dec 11 13:36:54 Bug priorities are bug priorities, I wouldn't extrapolate a lot about Nokia's willingness to align with upstream and avoid Maemoisms based on one or two bug reports going unfixed for longer than you like. Dec 11 13:37:07 AStorm: If you ask me, it has been fixed in BSD since eons ago Dec 11 13:37:10 ;) Dec 11 13:37:11 GeneralAntilles: :> Dec 11 13:37:26 RST38h: nah, only since 7.0 I think Dec 11 13:37:35 AStorm: Not really Dec 11 13:37:36 RST38h: most 3rd party apps will eun happily, but no it doesn't have all of Nokia's closed source apps Dec 11 13:37:36 6.x had that rarely Dec 11 13:37:53 like epitext Dec 11 13:37:54 :P Dec 11 13:37:58 RST38h, the keyboard doesn't have laggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg what are you on abbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbout? Dec 11 13:37:58 AStorm: BSD from the beginning had a scheduler that gave priority to interactive tasks Dec 11 13:38:06 lcuk: Yea, right Dec 11 13:38:09 which is unfair and source of the problem Dec 11 13:38:20 the other interactive app is blocking the current one Dec 11 13:38:20 AStorm: Actually, it is a solution to the problem Dec 11 13:38:23 :P Dec 11 13:38:26 no, it's not Dec 11 13:38:33 it's what old Linux sched did Dec 11 13:38:34 AStorm: What "other" interactive app? Dec 11 13:38:34 * Stskeeps wonders when we'll see the first BSD on tablet.. with kexec working. Dec 11 13:38:38 and see how it fails Dec 11 13:38:46 AStorm: Interactive app is an app that does a lot of waiting for IO Dec 11 13:38:46 any, like, say, other window in the background Dec 11 13:38:56 yes Dec 11 13:38:59 so does browserd Dec 11 13:38:59 we have WSOD - its only a matter of time before someone makes a black one Dec 11 13:39:02 or anything else Dec 11 13:39:03 AStorm: Why would it block anything? Dec 11 13:39:16 because it does a lot of IO? Dec 11 13:39:17 :) Dec 11 13:39:29 AStorm: No, this is not the definition Dec 11 13:39:31 IO is not a good measure of interactivity Dec 11 13:39:35 AStorm: At least not in BSD terms Dec 11 13:39:50 neither is CPU use or time between wakeups Dec 11 13:39:54 AStorm: BSD basically raises in priority whatever does a lot of IO waits Dec 11 13:39:58 all of these have been tested in O(1) sched Dec 11 13:40:01 and failed Dec 11 13:40:17 that's what Linux old sched did, again :) Dec 11 13:40:24 AStorm: I dunno what failed in Linux but it works very very well in BSD Dec 11 13:40:27 and thus it can lock up badly Dec 11 13:40:39 BSD has a... cleaner design, but it failed still, more rarely Dec 11 13:40:50 FreeBSD 7 with the new fair sched is good Dec 11 13:40:51 AStorm: no matter what CPU eating apps you have got, BSD is still very responsive to keyboard, mouse, etc Dec 11 13:40:56 sometimes Dec 11 13:41:04 RST38h: really, do tell me about your experience running BSD+maemo on a 400MHz ARM Dec 11 13:41:04 try having an IO bound app in the background Dec 11 13:41:05 :) Dec 11 13:41:14 AStorm: Like what Dec 11 13:41:15 cause otherwise its hard to extrapolate Dec 11 13:41:26 johnx: true Dec 11 13:41:28 RST38h: like, pipe communication eating CPU too Dec 11 13:41:44 johnx: But I do have experience running Linux on x86 and it isn't very responsive unfortunately Dec 11 13:41:45 (browserd :> ) Dec 11 13:41:55 AStorm: browserd uses shared memory not pipes Dec 11 13:42:02 hmm, still IO Dec 11 13:42:06 AStorm: that is why it leaks memory when killed Dec 11 13:42:13 ouch Dec 11 13:42:15 Shared memory is not IO Dec 11 13:42:22 oh well Dec 11 13:42:26 then use some pipes Dec 11 13:42:30 e.g. cdrecord Dec 11 13:42:30 RST38h: for example preemptible kernel on a high-end desktop makes little difference but vastly changes behavior on something tablet-class Dec 11 13:42:43 johnx: for worse or better? Dec 11 13:42:52 AStorm: I use pipes to send sound data between processes - no effect on interactivity Dec 11 13:43:04 because it detects bulk IO Dec 11 13:43:10 try doing bursty IO Dec 11 13:43:12 :) Dec 11 13:43:16 RST38h: ah, can that be remedied? Dec 11 13:43:20 it does indeed fail rarely Dec 11 13:43:25 that leaking of shared mem of browserd? Dec 11 13:43:28 hope next tablet has gobs of RAM Dec 11 13:43:34 fair scheduling is the fix Dec 11 13:43:44 and FreeBSD 7 has it, so does Linux 2.6.23+ Dec 11 13:43:45 Shit, AStorm, just what perverse IO should I do to make it hang? =) Dec 11 13:43:51 AStorm: I actually prefer non-preemtible. things tend to stay more balanved, but sound is more likely to skip under exxtreme load Dec 11 13:43:57 RST38h: try random bursty IO over pipes Dec 11 13:43:58 pupnik: prolly not Dec 11 13:44:07 AStorm: But I do not have any apps like that! Dec 11 13:44:26 hmm, let me think..., Dec 11 13:44:41 it should be reproducible by, say, switching windows a lot Dec 11 13:44:42 on X Dec 11 13:44:43 * lcuk2 i notice the kb lag when the cpu is generally busy Dec 11 13:44:48 aquatix: What? browserd? It can't: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3705 Dec 11 13:44:48 while having sound in the background Dec 11 13:44:50 not just one background task Dec 11 13:44:54 actually heavily workin Dec 11 13:44:55 it will starve the sound process Dec 11 13:44:55 aquatix: design decision (tm) Dec 11 13:45:06 lcuk2: yup Dec 11 13:45:14 RST38h: yay Dec 11 13:45:20 RST38h: maybe there's some happy secret tech that gives us lower power ram. or ... more than a couple levels of cache so that less frequently needed ram can be lowww power, but less slow than flash Dec 11 13:45:21 AStorm: Why do I need to switch windows a lot? =) Dec 11 13:45:25 please, someone, build a 2.6.27 linux-omap Dec 11 13:45:36 RST38h: to generate the interactive bursts with high CPU use Dec 11 13:45:45 pupnik: slow as flash ram = swap :) Dec 11 13:45:49 AStorm: solca has a 2.6.28rc6 with working wifi.. Dec 11 13:45:56 that booted mer, at least Dec 11 13:45:56 Stskeeps: working X too? Dec 11 13:45:57 less slow Dec 11 13:46:02 AStorm: think so Dec 11 13:46:05 AStorm: I do not want to generate interactive bursts. I just want it to be responsive and it is Dec 11 13:46:06 mmmh Dec 11 13:46:07 AStorm: we have -omapfb xorg now so Dec 11 13:46:08 keyboard lag seems to have a lot of causes Dec 11 13:46:10 solca: pingy Dec 11 13:46:16 Stskeeps: can I install just that in diablo? Dec 11 13:46:18 pupnik, whilst you are redesigning hardware, could i have a neural interface Dec 11 13:46:21 AStorm: And Linux is not, with or without fair scheduler, as it seems =( Dec 11 13:46:24 w/o mangling the whole system for a while Dec 11 13:46:29 AStorm: no clue. maybe? you need xorg core at least Dec 11 13:46:38 RST38h: it is now, in 2.6.23 or later Dec 11 13:46:39 just waxing (wanking) wishful Dec 11 13:46:39 AStorm: also we lack manual updates at the moment, so it's a bit laggy Dec 11 13:46:45 johnx: I do tend to think that AStorm is right Dec 11 13:46:48 I've never seen a hang since 2.6.24 Dec 11 13:46:55 pupnik, 256MB seems likely. It'll be a fair bit faster than the RAM we've got at the very least, though. Dec 11 13:47:02 AStorm: What kernel is Ibex using? Dec 11 13:47:07 Stskeeps: I can change some pkgs Dec 11 13:47:13 RST38h: Ibex? let me check Dec 11 13:47:38 2.6.26 ubuntu... shouldn't have problems Dec 11 13:47:41 RST38h: setting the cpu to max speed does give a slight benefit for usb keyboards, but a low level bt bug would not surprise me either Dec 11 13:47:46 well, I don't with 2.6.27 Dec 11 13:48:13 AStorm: Ok. Still gets unresponsive every time it runs a check for updates. Dec 11 13:48:18 RST38h: oh, 2.6.25 Dec 11 13:48:23 johnx, its most likely interupts crossing due to cpu throttling back and taking longer than realtime Dec 11 13:48:25 that has a known sched bug :> Dec 11 13:48:39 AStorm: But you said anything >2.6.23 is ok? Dec 11 13:48:42 which may explain why on performance it appears less susceptable Dec 11 13:48:49 RST38h: most, excluding bugs Dec 11 13:48:50 ibex does 2.6.27 iirc Dec 11 13:48:54 the only thang that hurts is the demands of websites GeneralAntilles - and considering they can bog down my P3 boxes quite nicely... it's hard to see much hope on that front Dec 11 13:48:54 umgh Dec 11 13:48:59 aquatix: now? it's changing all the time Dec 11 13:49:02 * RST38h remembers installing 2.6.29 btw Dec 11 13:49:02 :) Dec 11 13:49:09 2.6.29 doesn't exist yet Dec 11 13:49:10 Just recently Dec 11 13:49:12 lcuk2: in the usb kb case I actually think it really is the scaling not kicking in quickly enough Dec 11 13:49:19 Ok, then it is a false memory Dec 11 13:49:27 from future time! Dec 11 13:49:34 crystal balls... Dec 11 13:49:42 latest is 2.6.28-rc8 Dec 11 13:49:55 RST38h: crystal balls? ouch Dec 11 13:49:56 * RST38h can't check, usin work laptop Dec 11 13:49:59 johnx, yeah sounds about right, so whatever action is occuring in the background is going too slowly Dec 11 13:50:05 johnx: fragile, yes Dec 11 13:50:07 RST38h, you run extremely busy processes - do you notice a noticable frame twitch occuring about once every 1/3 second Dec 11 13:50:10 Stskeeps: so, again, will it be possible to install the few xorg packages into diablo w/o breaking it? Dec 11 13:50:22 lcuk: nothing like that Dec 11 13:50:23 AStorm: i have no clue. maybe? Dec 11 13:50:31 hmm, not very reassuring Dec 11 13:50:33 lcuk: in Maemo? Dec 11 13:50:40 rst i can almost time it by it - yeah Dec 11 13:50:51 linux kernel 2.6.27.9.13 Dec 11 13:50:58 AStorm: that's why i prefer things as mer, it's more predictable what would happen Dec 11 13:51:00 that's the one in intrepid now :) Dec 11 13:51:05 lcuk: I think I know what it is Dec 11 13:51:09 not without a bit of fun repackaging Dec 11 13:51:17 Stskeeps: more predictable it would fail and lack features? no thanks Dec 11 13:51:18 :) Dec 11 13:51:18 aquatix: Now I know where "9" in my memory came from Dec 11 13:51:22 ive always put it down to an interupt occuring during frame transfer - it got slightly less in diablo, but still there Dec 11 13:51:37 lcuk: You are using hw scaling right? Dec 11 13:51:38 lcuk2: so, you want an rt kernel? Dec 11 13:51:42 RST38h: yep Dec 11 13:51:42 Stskeeps, give warning the meeting is gonna start later ill sit in :) Dec 11 13:51:53 AStorm: more along lines "so, we're building a xorg driver, let's install it and point xorg.conf to it" Dec 11 13:51:56 we could have that Ingo's patch Dec 11 13:51:59 if it fails, it fails Dec 11 13:52:04 AStorm, doesnt matter, its just noticable because i run on the ragged edge with liqbase :) Dec 11 13:52:07 Stskeeps: meh Dec 11 13:52:26 well, that rt patch should be nice and stable Dec 11 13:52:27 esp. on armel Dec 11 13:52:31 * lcuk2 thinks he has worked around the locking up issue Dec 11 13:52:37 lcuk: This glitch comes either from yourself not waiting for the previous screen transfer to finish or from somebody else cutting in Dec 11 13:52:42 and improve latency too Dec 11 13:52:57 RST38h: somebody else most likely Dec 11 13:53:15 RST38h, sounds likely, but i am waiting - the shmupdate command has a flag to raise an x event when complete and i do nothing with the data until i get that event Dec 11 13:53:16 AStorm: That would actually only happen if the desktop changes Dec 11 13:53:36 AStorm: maybe he is running some busy applets? Dec 11 13:53:39 i know what tearing loioks like and its not coming from my side Dec 11 13:53:49 it could be my clock Dec 11 13:53:56 not busy but has to show right time Dec 11 13:54:04 hm Dec 11 13:54:10 but i thought if it was ocluded by another window no update would go through Dec 11 13:54:12 lcuk: If you cut into your own transfer (previous one), it will not look like tearing on the tablet Dec 11 13:54:30 lcuk: It will look more like a bit of flicker or even a little snow Dec 11 13:54:33 maybe it's due to not being vsynced? Dec 11 13:54:35 if i cut into my own transfer i screw it up and it looks bad Dec 11 13:54:37 this is not that Dec 11 13:54:56 its just a slight stutter Dec 11 13:54:56 btw, any liqbase updates recently? Dec 11 13:55:33 heh yeah loads, but nothing for you lot - i am rebuilding the ui framework :$ Dec 11 13:55:58 shouldnt be long now - each widget/screen has to be completely independent of rotation location and scaling Dec 11 13:56:15 :) Dec 11 13:56:17 it was getting hard to do things because each module expected a full screen Dec 11 13:56:33 and there was a lot of stuff i wanted to do within a single cell on the menus Dec 11 13:57:02 its also been a chance to boil down what i have and make sure its documented and clean and everything works the same Dec 11 13:57:43 should be out of the way as soon as i get some dev time :) Dec 11 13:57:48 lcuk2: s/the same/better/ Dec 11 13:57:48 http://www.amazon.com/Peek-Mobile-E-mail-Device-Cherry/dp/B001FC165A/ref=pe_28490_10889280_as_txt_1/ <- heh Dec 11 13:57:55 e.g. not broken screen updates in fbreader Dec 11 13:58:44 you did that "cutting in" thing there Dec 11 13:58:51 astorm, yes there is a lot inside liqbase which works, theres also an awful lot of crufty test code which has to go Dec 11 13:58:51 looks like a bit of garbage showing Dec 11 13:58:54 :) Dec 11 13:59:06 Still nobody with DirectFB experience? Dec 11 13:59:07 cutting in? Dec 11 13:59:08 * johnx heads off for the night, will try to do *something* with mer tomorrow if circumstances permit Dec 11 13:59:19 lcuk2: cutting into your own transfer Dec 11 13:59:19 night Dec 11 13:59:35 'night Stskeeps Dec 11 13:59:36 night Dec 11 13:59:36 solca: again, pingy ping Dec 11 13:59:44 sleep well Dec 11 13:59:54 'night all I should say : Dec 11 14:00:02 :) Dec 11 14:00:06 on which bit astorm, there shouldnt be any glitches in the bookreader - very old versions didnt wait for the event, but those shouldv been gone long ago Dec 11 14:00:09 gnite johhnx Dec 11 14:00:19 lcuk2: maybe I have an old version Dec 11 14:00:36 possibly, :) 0.1.5 is latest released stable instance Dec 11 14:00:39 0.1.5 build 2544 Dec 11 14:00:46 seems like an age ago :) Dec 11 14:01:00 it does send intermittent garbage in fbreader Dec 11 14:01:05 also, how do I use the file picker there? Dec 11 14:01:07 it's so funny ;P Dec 11 14:01:09 in fbreader? Dec 11 14:01:15 yeah i know :$ Dec 11 14:01:26 its one of the things that didnt work too well Dec 11 14:01:52 in principle it works and i use it to select my books, but its not right in other ways Dec 11 14:02:15 btw, why is drawing so slow? :> Dec 11 14:02:33 drawing what? Dec 11 14:02:43 I can draw fullscreen at 800x480 and it works smoothly (in pygtk) Dec 11 14:02:58 drawing stuff, in liqbase Dec 11 14:03:03 are you using liqbase or something else? Dec 11 14:03:11 are you in performance mode or powersave? Dec 11 14:03:20 ondemand tuned Dec 11 14:03:44 still, pygtk is so much faster Dec 11 14:03:49 (even vs performance) Dec 11 14:03:52 then your tuning is off - the stroke drawing in liqbase for strokes is so optimized it never kicks upto full Dec 11 14:04:02 first ive ever heard of that Dec 11 14:04:07 show me code later :) im at work now Dec 11 14:04:23 it still looks slow Dec 11 14:04:24 ASA rules 'Feck' non-offensive! Dec 11 14:04:36 Rejoice, ye Brits! Dec 11 14:04:43 the code is client-side drawing with timed FPS blit Dec 11 14:04:48 of limited area Dec 11 14:05:12 it does no AA or pressure reading though Dec 11 14:06:07 ive not seen anything run as fast as liqbase on this machine, i'd be happy to see something which does otherwise cos then i can throw away my graphics library and get on with actual work Dec 11 14:06:16 :> Dec 11 14:06:32 OK, once I unbreak the code, I'll give it to you Dec 11 14:06:37 speed was of vital importance and you are the first person to say that Dec 11 14:06:45 it's indeed fairly simple, partial area update Dec 11 14:07:03 it blits as little as needed, using standard GTK drawing methods Dec 11 14:07:10 (not cairo) Dec 11 14:07:25 that might work at over 25fps then, but how would it cope with wholescreen (graffiti wallesq) Dec 11 14:07:40 I'll check Dec 11 14:07:48 errr infact it cant, the screen is limited to 27fps (which is also liqbase max speed for 800*480) Dec 11 14:07:51 might be slower a bit due to overhead, but not necessarily ;P Dec 11 14:07:55 hehehe Dec 11 14:08:02 27fps you say... so cap it at that Dec 11 14:08:16 yeah for that res - for 640*480 its about 33 Dec 11 14:08:23 27 is good enough Dec 11 14:08:26 almost ;P Dec 11 14:08:38 go for 25 - leave yourself some wiggle Dec 11 14:09:08 27fps is not bad Dec 11 14:09:09 blitting doesn't eat much cpu Dec 11 14:09:14 and also - to test the cpu side of it - try one of the stamps Dec 11 14:09:24 In the remaining 2 frames you can pass subliminal messages Dec 11 14:09:30 the trick is to run updates in a thread Dec 11 14:09:47 not really you still have to idle waiting for it to finish Dec 11 14:09:53 Like "Follow the white rabbit" or "Don't let em take you alive" Dec 11 14:09:53 why? :P Dec 11 14:09:57 or use double buffering which causes its own problems Dec 11 14:09:58 it draws to backbuffer Dec 11 14:10:08 yup, what problems? Dec 11 14:10:08 memory usage? Dec 11 14:10:18 partial updates are done away with by locking :) Dec 11 14:10:35 so while the flip is being done, you can't draw Dec 11 14:10:44 tripple buffering would fix that Dec 11 14:10:50 flip is fast though Dec 11 14:10:54 well doublebuffering to a backbuffer means you either need to do a memcopy to send the "live" screen to the lcd or you lose the current live contents of a screen and cannot do manipulation on the previous frames contents Dec 11 14:11:18 yes, memcopy it is Dec 11 14:11:25 but it's still faster than I expected Dec 11 14:11:35 ie when drawing a stroke in liqbase - i simply expand upon the current image drawn - i dont draw everything everytime Dec 11 14:11:53 same here, I only blit the required rectangle Dec 11 14:12:10 but the other tools do a full sketch redraw (they have to) Dec 11 14:12:33 hm, still, my drawing looks tons faster... brb, fixing it Dec 11 14:12:44 show me in a bit :) back later Dec 11 14:13:20 it's basic GTK drawing using doublebuffer Dec 11 14:13:22 :> Dec 11 14:13:32 (with threaded FPS update) Dec 11 14:13:47 in Python I might add Dec 11 14:13:55 which doesn't do threading the best way Dec 11 14:15:33 might be that Xomap does something smart Dec 11 14:19:04 astorm, have a look at performance as the area gets larger, most of the time in liqbase i need wholescreen updates - the stroke drawing algo is the only special case which needs incremental tiny updates Dec 11 14:19:42 * lcuk2 closes vnc from this end Dec 11 14:19:47 lcuk2: I will :) Dec 11 14:23:57 AStorm: pong Dec 11 14:25:40 * RST38h laid a CVS commit Dec 11 14:25:54 tea time. Dec 11 14:28:16 Will Ubuntu UME work on Nokia N810 anytime soon? Dec 11 14:28:34 * mgedmin doubts it Dec 11 14:28:36 king, Ubuntu UME is targeting x86 machines. Dec 11 14:28:38 no. Dec 11 14:28:42 next question? =) Dec 11 14:28:54 will nokia release a x86 tablet anytime soon? Dec 11 14:28:56 Will Fennec ever run with any performance? ;) Dec 11 14:28:58 you're actually not totally correct.. Dec 11 14:29:01 mgedmin, hell no. Dec 11 14:29:09 towo: yes. next question? Dec 11 14:29:13 towo, a2 should have big performance improvements. Dec 11 14:29:15 ;) Dec 11 14:29:36 [don't forget to insert quarters] Dec 11 14:29:55 I thought that making free software run on different platform was just a matter of compiling it on the target software. Please excuse my ignorance Dec 11 14:30:02 Mhm, x86 tablet.. Does it feature a plugin for an external heat sink? Dec 11 14:30:08 mgedmin: you should not ask me this kind of questions Dec 11 14:30:14 towo, no, just a lead-acid battery. Dec 11 14:30:22 Like I read somewhere that Openmoko people are compiling the Android code on openmoko and after it is complete Android would run on it. Dec 11 14:30:27 Yay, car batteries! Dec 11 14:30:42 king, part of the problem is that you're not asking the right question. :) Dec 11 14:30:45 doubles as a portable seat warmer Dec 11 14:31:04 GeneralAntilles, I am far from getting your jokes. But I am sure the channel gets it. Dec 11 14:31:09 towo, even then it only manages about 7 hour use-time. :P Dec 11 14:31:19 hehehe. Dec 11 14:31:23 GeneralAntilles: http://picasaweb.google.com/mail.deweb/MaemoReconstructed#5266329447820882210 Dec 11 14:31:52 Stskeeps, yes, but does it include Clutter and is it stable with good battery life? :P Dec 11 14:31:57 GeneralAntilles: hehe. Dec 11 14:32:09 he asked if it ran, but i guess, it might just be crawling ;) Dec 11 14:32:39 king, hey, just trying to help. Dec 11 14:32:50 * GeneralAntilles hurls the question forcibly at Stskeeps. Dec 11 14:33:29 Can I run php code on Nokia N810? Does the Apache port have the php-modules? Or is the device simply under powered to handle all that. Webservers can run off pretty cheap hardware. So that shouldn't be an issue. Dec 11 14:33:30 Ooooh, clutter. Dec 11 14:33:54 king: yes, UME runs but is not very useful or power saving. no, i'm not going to encourage ubuntu with gnome ui as itself on a tablet, or UME Dec 11 14:34:04 it crawls, rather than runs Dec 11 14:34:25 I thought the whole point of UME was to make them run on similarly speced hardware. Dec 11 14:34:25 king: and yes, i think you can run apache, there's a thread on iTT. If nothing else, Mer will. :P Dec 11 14:34:30 When I was still planning to get a Thinkpad tablet soonish, I was considering hacking together a hildon desktop. Dec 11 14:34:47 towo: help with Mer instead.. i386 port is one of the targets Dec 11 14:34:52 hildon is quite portable Dec 11 14:35:19 king, x86 and ARM aren't remotely similar. Dec 11 14:35:39 king: and UME was based on moblin, which .. was made by intel, see where i'm going? :P Dec 11 14:35:47 Stskeeps: Well, I can't get a 1400 X61 tablet in new anymore, and I'm not even seriously considering paying a ludicrous 1800€ for a X200 tablet... Dec 11 14:35:47 The MIDs and UMPCs are in an entirely different power and performance profile than our tablets. Dec 11 14:37:39 I hope one day I will be able to respond appropriately to all the 'terms' used in your sentences without a second thought. Till then, I guess its just good reading ebooks on my Nokia N810. Dec 11 14:37:41 towo: 400mhz tablets are just fine :P Dec 11 14:38:11 General: MID definition fits the tablet exactly Dec 11 14:38:22 Stskeeps: But I needed some 12" display so that I can get sort of an A4 page on it. ;) Dec 11 14:38:27 hehe Dec 11 14:38:28 General: MID does not HAVE to be based on x86 Dec 11 14:38:30 I know about the apache port on nokia n810, does it have the required php-modules to run php or not? Dec 11 14:38:37 king: no clue Dec 11 14:38:41 RST38h, "MID" is an Intel marketing term for devices with ~5" screens using Atom processors. Dec 11 14:38:58 General: Ok, MIDI is an Intel marketing term for internet tblets :) Dec 11 14:39:20 General: Based on Intel processors of course, or Intel would not have any use for it (compare: NIT) Dec 11 14:39:22 GeneralAntilles, Which has now been taken over by everyone. So MIDs are like MDAs and PDAs. Hell people even go to buy sony ipods now! Dec 11 14:39:55 s/MIDI/MID/ Dec 11 14:40:21 king, either way, it doesn't change the fact that Ubuntu UME targets x86 machines that are very different from our tablets. Dec 11 14:41:10 GeneralAntilles, Right. But I think it would be easy to have UME ports like we have Ubuntu ports for x86, amd-64, ppc, etc Dec 11 14:41:18 no. Dec 11 14:41:24 btw the acer aspire one intel atom netbook with LED backlight isn't all that impressive for battery life - unless you get the biggest one available Dec 11 14:41:29 not "easy". requires work. Dec 11 14:41:34 king, as RST38, sorry, no. Dec 11 14:41:50 king, Nokia has really done quite a lot to make Maemo battery-friendly. Dec 11 14:42:00 pupnik: I'm happy with the Samsung NC10 Dec 11 14:42:23 Thank you people. It's maemo then. Built on top of debian so should be easy to acclimatise. Dec 11 14:42:35 yeah.. Dec 11 14:42:35 :P Dec 11 14:42:44 * Stskeeps goes back to his HCI handin. Dec 11 14:43:14 * RST38h kindly suggests any self-respecting netbook owner get a proper subnotebook instead =) Dec 11 14:43:39 RST38h: Pff.. ;) Dec 11 14:44:04 what? same weight, bigger screen, thinner package, same battery life, way better performance Dec 11 14:44:35 Price? Dec 11 14:45:30 I don't know what you're doing on a small device that needs a lot of performance (or more than the Atom delivers). It's probably a different usecase then. Dec 11 14:46:16 RST38h: hehe... quite true - for daily work at least. I just bought a proper subnotebook Dec 11 14:47:09 yeah im very impressed with maemo battery friendliness too Dec 11 14:47:28 Blafasel: $1200..$2500 Dec 11 14:47:57 Blafasel: What am I doing? Compiling stuff. Emulating stuff. Watching movies. Dec 11 14:48:08 Creating UI artwork. Dec 11 14:48:11 Compared to 400-500 for this one. I'm poor ;) And watching movies is not an issue ;) Dec 11 14:48:33 Blafasel: It is a work tool I buy once every 3 years or so Dec 11 14:48:37 UI on a subnotebook? Okay. I'd say for art stuff even that is too limited (screen size), but I suck at that anyway. Dec 11 14:48:43 * Stskeeps wouldn't mind a dvi plugout on tablet, and then just plug into a usb hub, keyboard Dec 11 14:48:44 * RST38h even writes computers off taxes Dec 11 14:48:46 :P Dec 11 14:49:13 Blafasel: Well, I do not have any artists working for me and someone has to do it :) Dec 11 14:50:01 Hehe.. Unfortunately. Dec 11 14:50:50 RST38h: no other life? :P Dec 11 14:53:25 AStorm: Mmm...not entirely, but my personal stuff and my public stuff are kept separate Dec 11 15:23:12 hmm...i'm gonna try maemo chroot in Mer :P Dec 11 15:23:18 hehe Dec 11 15:23:29 mount --bind /tmp /chroot/tmp Dec 11 15:23:30 hint Dec 11 15:23:30 :P Dec 11 15:23:41 thanks Dec 11 15:23:43 microb vs. midori Dec 11 15:23:47 :P Dec 11 15:24:02 be aware there might need a browserd running so Dec 11 15:24:14 now, it's a good time to take video from Mer :P Dec 11 15:24:16 try other apps first Dec 11 15:24:17 hehe Dec 11 15:24:24 k Dec 11 15:24:58 microb worked in hasty-chroot, when i was playing with UME Dec 11 15:25:03 k Dec 11 15:27:30 Meizirkki: so, has your parents admitted they think you're insane yet? ;) Dec 11 15:27:51 couple of times... Dec 11 15:27:53 :P Dec 11 15:27:59 Good morning Dec 11 15:28:18 morning r2d2rogers Dec 11 15:28:52 I didn't get mufh further last night Dec 11 15:29:09 hehe.. i woke up and looked at tablet, that was when i answered you Dec 11 15:29:14 cool Dec 11 15:29:24 I was surprised to see you on... Dec 11 15:29:30 what time zone are you in? Dec 11 15:29:35 .dk, GMT+1 Dec 11 15:29:51 Stskeeps: what whas the dhcp command that worked yesterday? Dec 11 15:29:57 Meizirkki: dhclient wlan0 Dec 11 15:30:01 s/whas/was Dec 11 15:30:09 or udhcpc -i wlan0 Dec 11 15:30:13 thanks Dec 11 15:30:46 so how do I figure out if udev is running? Dec 11 15:30:55 ps aux :P Dec 11 15:31:19 i tried powerlaunch at morning but it did not start Dec 11 15:31:23 yeah Dec 11 15:31:26 it needs alteration Dec 11 15:31:27 installed one in extras-devel Dec 11 15:31:28 I'm not getting to an useable shell? Dec 11 15:31:32 r2d2rogers: true Dec 11 15:31:52 r2d2rogers: give me a couple of minutes to ponder that one Dec 11 15:31:56 wilco Dec 11 15:32:06 in the meanwhile, give me a pastebin of ls -l /etc/rcS.d Dec 11 15:35:10 Stskeeps: http://pastebin.ca/1282699 Dec 11 15:36:33 r2d2rogers: could you add a swap line to /etc/fstab per chance, just so we're sure it's not ram it's running out of? Dec 11 15:37:06 can do Dec 11 15:37:26 also, cat of init.d/udev http://pastebin.ca/1282701 did I comment out the right part? Dec 11 15:38:05 what version does 770s run again? Dec 11 15:38:22 kernel verson? Dec 11 15:38:25 yeah Dec 11 15:39:04 2.6.18 Dec 11 15:39:11 running fanoush's kernel Dec 11 15:39:14 k Dec 11 15:41:38 hmm Dec 11 15:41:55 what's the extra column in the fstab? Dec 11 15:42:01 a label? Dec 11 15:42:38 /dev/hda8 none swap sw 0 0 Dec 11 15:42:39 :P Dec 11 15:42:52 example: proc /proc proc defaults 0 0 Dec 11 15:43:12 k I have the same as that in Dec 11 15:43:17 k Dec 11 15:43:26 # device name mount point fs-type options dump-freq pass-num Dec 11 15:44:17 sorry, the fs-type being proc and rootfs threw me off Dec 11 15:44:31 hehe, proc is a fs ;) Dec 11 15:44:36 yup Dec 11 15:44:40 but rootfs? Dec 11 15:44:50 there's some point that, can't remember which Dec 11 15:44:50 :P Dec 11 15:45:37 boot attempt 7 or 8 Dec 11 15:45:40 k Dec 11 15:46:09 console looks the same Dec 11 15:46:22 last 3 lines are? (and you select console mode i presume?) Dec 11 15:46:36 yes I did Dec 11 15:46:45 last three lines are unchanged Dec 11 15:47:17 same behavior, only response is to the menu key Dec 11 15:47:50 and it didn't stop at the console long enough to retype them Dec 11 15:49:08 reboot to flash to check logs Dec 11 15:50:08 Stskeeps was you wanting the new theme for Mer? Dec 11 15:51:46 andrewfblack: well atleast one new ;) Dec 11 15:51:55 r2d2rogers: and last 3 lines are? :P Dec 11 15:52:48 I was wrong Dec 11 15:52:54 swap added Dec 11 15:53:36 http://pastebin.ca/index.php Dec 11 15:53:41 errr Dec 11 15:53:43 one sec Dec 11 15:53:46 ERR wrong url Dec 11 15:53:47 :P Dec 11 15:53:56 http://pastebin.ca/1282719 Dec 11 15:54:15 can give the whole list there instead if you want dmesg... Dec 11 15:55:17 that's awkward there's no more than that, doesn't it boot verbosely? Dec 11 15:55:24 i mean, where's the boot text? :P Dec 11 15:55:37 I was wondering that too Dec 11 15:55:58 can i see your fstab? Dec 11 15:55:59 that's the view I get on the console option Dec 11 15:56:01 yup Dec 11 15:56:34 http://pastebin.ca/1282720 Dec 11 15:56:50 Stskeeps I started working on one this morning Dec 11 15:57:11 r2d2rogers: looks correct.. can i see your .item? Dec 11 15:57:16 from bootmenu Dec 11 15:58:37 (etc/bootmenu.d on intifs) Dec 11 15:59:08 yup Dec 11 15:59:12 gotta ssh in Dec 11 15:59:22 getting ip Dec 11 16:02:19 http://pastebin.ca/1282724 Dec 11 16:02:42 Stskeeps: sorry for delays have sick boy home with me Dec 11 16:03:34 r2d2rogers: i'm doing a handin on the image of humans in pre-WIMP interfaces.. Dec 11 16:03:42 so i'm delayed too Dec 11 16:03:42 :P Dec 11 16:03:46 awesome Dec 11 16:03:52 no worries Dec 11 16:04:20 .. is there a /dev/console on partition? Dec 11 16:05:39 yes Dec 11 16:05:46 crw------- 1 root tty 5, 1 2008-12-10 14:42 console Dec 11 16:05:47 is it a device or a big log file? ;) Dec 11 16:05:49 k Dec 11 16:07:18 * Stskeeps ponders. Dec 11 16:07:58 is there any logs in /var/log? Dec 11 16:08:03 yup Dec 11 16:08:15 not bootstrap.log, but you're welcome to send me that one too Dec 11 16:09:09 http://pastebin.ca/1282728 Dec 11 16:09:19 want 'em in pastbin or where? Dec 11 16:09:33 anything in boot/? Dec 11 16:09:50 and why the bloody hell did we succeed in getting in X earlier? Dec 11 16:09:52 boot is a file Dec 11 16:10:02 (Nothing has been logged yet.) Dec 11 16:10:03 wait, ok, what's the problem right now again? Dec 11 16:10:17 no touchscreen Dec 11 16:10:22 suspected udev Dec 11 16:10:28 and no usb Dec 11 16:10:29 trying to find out if udev is starting Dec 11 16:10:39 i thought it was the lock up problem :) Dec 11 16:10:53 usb works for the ethernet gadget mode Dec 11 16:10:57 it does? Dec 11 16:11:03 yes Dec 11 16:11:05 but not telnet Dec 11 16:11:11 right Dec 11 16:11:19 wait Dec 11 16:11:24 no that was earlier Dec 11 16:11:25 you have /dev/usb0 or something in maemo /dev? Dec 11 16:11:28 I can telnet in now Dec 11 16:11:30 ok Dec 11 16:11:36 what was the issue? Dec 11 16:11:49 I think the fstab wasn't present Dec 11 16:11:52 ah Dec 11 16:12:03 so there was no filesystem to access Dec 11 16:12:14 fair enough Dec 11 16:12:15 sec Dec 11 16:12:25 sorry for running you around in circles :) Dec 11 16:12:28 give me Xorg.log Dec 11 16:12:29 no worries Dec 11 16:12:33 learning good Dec 11 16:13:33 http://pastebin.ca/1282733 Dec 11 16:14:17 ls /dev/input/ on maemo Dec 11 16:14:18 install xfonts-base at least Dec 11 16:15:26 and i would like dmesg too Dec 11 16:15:51 event0 event1 event2 mice mouse0 Dec 11 16:18:08 dmesg log http://pastebin.ca/1282737 Dec 11 16:18:31 edit xorg.conf Dec 11 16:18:34 edit input3 to input2 Dec 11 16:18:38 er Dec 11 16:18:38 event2 Dec 11 16:18:39 k Dec 11 16:20:01 I did try that but I hadn't gotten swap in before Dec 11 16:20:09 try boot or? Dec 11 16:20:14 mm Dec 11 16:20:58 the Xorg.log seemed to say it was recognizing the tslib entry that time, but Istill didn't get touchscreen input Dec 11 16:21:17 we'll see i guess Dec 11 16:21:26 when booted, check if /dev/input exists Dec 11 16:21:28 I know one time I did get indication of more CPU actifity Dec 11 16:21:30 k Dec 11 16:21:48 Doh Dec 11 16:21:54 just shut down the wrong one Dec 11 16:22:01 hehe Dec 11 16:22:12 getting a game on for the 6 year old Dec 11 16:22:21 numpty? ;) Dec 11 16:22:30 not on the 770 Dec 11 16:22:32 ah Dec 11 16:22:35 wish though Dec 11 16:22:51 maybe it can run in mer :P Dec 11 16:23:04 got a chance to play with liqbase on a 800 and wished I could run that too Dec 11 16:23:07 I hope so Dec 11 16:23:57 Stskeeps: do you know what can be slowing down my hildon to start ? Dec 11 16:24:04 disco_stu: on maemo? no Dec 11 16:24:19 its weird Dec 11 16:25:43 got a DMA timeout in the dmesg log Dec 11 16:25:55 fair enough Dec 11 16:25:58 not unusual Dec 11 16:25:58 got touch screen! Dec 11 16:26:03 woo! Dec 11 16:26:33 can you check if udev runs? Dec 11 16:26:49 will see what USB plug does Dec 11 16:27:02 the first menu I hit comes up white and doesn't go away Dec 11 16:27:18 k Dec 11 16:27:23 then nothing else responds, except the mouse pointer follows touch Dec 11 16:27:37 fair enough Dec 11 16:27:50 there's always the possibility it's too heavy for 770s, but i guess we'll see :) Dec 11 16:28:20 What is this DirectFB thing? Nobody seems to use it or know anything about it Dec 11 16:28:35 RST38h: for the weird people who dislike X. Dec 11 16:28:36 :P Dec 11 16:28:55 it's a fb accel wrapper Dec 11 16:29:12 and windowing thing, etc. Dec 11 16:29:47 Stskeeps: nothing in my desktops Dec 11 16:29:53 Sts: It seems to be the same thing as SDL but following DirectX conventions and lacking any users Dec 11 16:29:55 dmesg on plugging into the 770 Dec 11 16:30:20 r2d2rogers: hm? Dec 11 16:30:53 r2d2rogers: no udev running on tablet? Dec 11 16:30:54 Stskeeps: no way to get indication of udev running, reboot for logs Dec 11 16:30:58 ah Dec 11 16:31:05 thought you could usb in :P Dec 11 16:31:18 yeah but not when I get to X Dec 11 16:31:30 it fails to allow you to telnet in after X starts? Dec 11 16:31:47 yup Dec 11 16:31:54 trying that mode now Dec 11 16:31:54 mmkay Dec 11 16:32:23 I haven't seen it go to X when I booted to ethernet gadget mode Dec 11 16:33:02 ok Dec 11 16:33:13 let's see how it works with ethernet gadget mode, i assume you removed the read foo's Dec 11 16:33:28 I think so Dec 11 16:33:36 will be able to confirm in a sec Dec 11 16:34:18 be aware it might do fs checking Dec 11 16:34:35 will leave it booted this way for a while Dec 11 16:35:08 am I looking for /dev/input now or not, as we have touchscreen now? Dec 11 16:35:46 Stskeeps: /dev/input has by-path now Dec 11 16:36:15 look for .udev in /dev i guess and ps aux | grep udev Dec 11 16:36:27 but i guess since it has input it should be running Dec 11 16:37:52 root 644 0.2 1.1 2268 708 ? S good Dec 11 16:38:31 but nothing happens when you touch menu? Dec 11 16:40:56 the menu I hit was the cpu applet Dec 11 16:41:02 ah Dec 11 16:41:03 and it just came up white Dec 11 16:41:11 what about the home menu or app menu? Dec 11 16:41:13 looks like the file system is mounted readonline Dec 11 16:41:16 ah. Dec 11 16:41:17 oh boy. Dec 11 16:41:18 readonly Dec 11 16:41:47 edit fstab, remove the errors=remount-ro Dec 11 16:41:54 and no, the read foo's are not commented, I must have imaged again after i did that Dec 11 16:41:58 k Dec 11 16:42:02 will do Dec 11 16:42:10 and the read foos while I'm at it Dec 11 16:42:13 will report back Dec 11 16:42:45 k Dec 11 16:43:01 i wonder if there's missing a ,rw in the fstab.. Dec 11 16:43:12 rootfs on / type rootfs (rw,noatime,nodiratime,errors=remount-ro) Dec 11 16:43:26 .. Dec 11 16:43:30 that's not readonly though Dec 11 16:43:46 remove errors=remount-ro, i don't think it's working properly Dec 11 16:44:45 remounted rw Dec 11 16:44:49 edting Dec 11 16:44:50 k Dec 11 16:45:00 oh Dec 11 16:45:01 ! Dec 11 16:45:05 nm Dec 11 16:45:07 ? Dec 11 16:45:08 hmm Dec 11 16:45:09 sec Dec 11 16:45:30 nevermind Dec 11 16:45:52 =P Dec 11 16:46:02 heh Dec 11 16:46:04 k Dec 11 16:46:08 removed foo's Dec 11 16:46:16 removed remount on errors Dec 11 16:46:19 k Dec 11 16:46:30 now am in telnet on a rw rootfs Dec 11 16:46:31 the other guy had problems with fanoush 48mhz kernel, it was erroring out Dec 11 16:46:44 and causing those remount on errors Dec 11 16:46:49 when lowering mhz, it worked Dec 11 16:46:55 the other guy=someone Dec 11 16:47:17 cool Dec 11 16:47:26 card dependant Dec 11 16:47:37 I do have a better card to try with next Dec 11 16:47:42 will see what this gets us Dec 11 16:48:25 where can I see the bootmenu stuff from inside ? Dec 11 16:48:32 mnt/initfs/ Dec 11 16:53:49 got console this time Dec 11 16:54:06 fixing other errors from bad edit of fstab Dec 11 16:54:33 did any one get clutter running on maemo diablo? Dec 11 16:58:35 * r2d2rogers does a happy dance Dec 11 16:58:40 r2d2rogers: it works? Dec 11 16:59:10 well it's closer Dec 11 16:59:10 Dec 11 16:59:23 ethernet gadget, touchscreen and x Dec 11 17:00:22 wishing ubuntu would save the usb0 settings in the nm applet Dec 11 17:00:36 hehe, i have a network/interfaces thing for it :P Dec 11 17:00:45 then it's a bit of messing with ifup ifdown Dec 11 17:01:03 nothing for taps or keypresses Dec 11 17:01:11 mm Dec 11 17:01:31 im not sure why Dec 11 17:01:42 got telnet though Dec 11 17:01:50 r2d2rogers: still ro? Dec 11 17:02:17 nope Dec 11 17:02:23 touch /foo? Dec 11 17:02:41 make s foo file Dec 11 17:02:51 k Dec 11 17:03:35 got swap too Dec 11 17:07:08 shouldn't i see users listed when I hit w? Dec 11 17:07:22 telnet isn't logged in the traditional way :P Dec 11 17:07:31 but the user in X? Dec 11 17:07:34 root Dec 11 17:07:34 :P Dec 11 17:07:37 and nop Dec 11 17:07:51 its booted from rc.local so Dec 11 17:12:43 trying to figurte out how to push up the cpu to see if the applets on the screen are active Dec 11 17:13:39 r2d2rogers: *push up* (?) Dec 11 17:13:54 r2d2rogers: cat /dev/urandom | wc -c? :P Dec 11 17:14:02 make it more active Dec 11 17:14:28 ls -R / Dec 11 17:14:32 eventually will end Dec 11 17:14:32 doesnt' sem to re responsive Dec 11 17:16:49 I am Mr Ming Yang,i have an obscured busines suggestion for you." Dec 11 17:17:31 ~kill Mr Ming Yang Dec 11 17:17:46 * infobot shoots a excited quark gun at Mr Ming Yang Dec 11 17:18:12 RST38h, I am Mr Ming Yang. Dec 11 17:18:20 I am offended that you tried to kill me. Dec 11 17:18:35 Or rather hired an assassin :P Dec 11 17:18:51 hired? I saw no mention of price Dec 11 17:18:54 infobot volunteered Dec 11 17:19:02 ~$100 Dec 11 17:19:03 * infobot gives qwerty12 full service! Dec 11 17:19:21 * RST38h kills Mr Ming Yang for the second time Dec 11 17:25:47 Stskeeps: killed and reran hildon-desktop and it's taking taps now, but is messed up Dec 11 17:29:01 r2d2rogers: ok Dec 11 17:29:09 r2d2rogers: i guess its a bit of progress :P Dec 11 17:29:34 rm -rf /root/.osso and edit /etc/hildon-desktop/statusbar.conf Dec 11 17:29:36 and remove the applets Dec 11 17:29:56 "Chinese researchers inadvertently release IE7 exploit code" Dec 11 17:30:13 Am I putting quotes at the right place? =) Dec 11 17:34:58 r2d2rogers: (on the partition, from maemo, i guess) Dec 11 17:44:30 it's looking more correct now Dec 11 17:44:43 with the applets responding after a hildon desktop restart Dec 11 17:44:54 I can adjust brightness even Dec 11 17:45:59 Mer works in 770? :) Dec 11 17:46:06 what other processed should run for the getting there Dec 11 17:46:10 err Dec 11 17:46:12 getting there Dec 11 17:46:17 ok Dec 11 17:46:26 what other processes should be running for the theme stuff? Dec 11 17:46:43 or what should start before hildon desktop? Dec 11 17:48:19 rotate even changed the orientation of the d-pad Dec 11 17:48:26 but X errored out Dec 11 17:51:22 do you have the start-hildon script? Dec 11 17:51:49 yup Dec 11 17:51:52 trying it Dec 11 17:51:52 brr Dec 11 17:52:00 fucking cold Dec 11 17:52:01 much better Dec 11 17:52:02 thanks Dec 11 17:52:15 * Meiz_n810 boots back to maemo... Dec 11 17:52:36 r2d2rogers, background doesnt come naturally btw Dec 11 17:52:39 * r2d2rogers looks at start-hildon script errors Dec 11 17:53:19 so if I get network out through the usb working I can get some of these missing files eh? Dec 11 17:53:37 r2d2rogers, whats status now? Dec 11 17:53:40 propably Dec 11 17:53:44 png's for advanced backlight for example Dec 11 17:53:51 ah Dec 11 17:53:58 can restart hildon desktop and get working menus and applets Dec 11 17:54:07 but it looks raw and unthemed Dec 11 17:54:12 interesting Dec 11 17:54:20 when using the start-hildon script I get the other behavior... Dec 11 17:54:22 i made rc.local to set up wlan for me :P Dec 11 17:54:30 try disaable applets Dec 11 17:54:52 first menu open is blank white box and nothing else responds on the X Dec 11 17:54:53 k Dec 11 17:55:46 do comments work in statusbar.conf? Dec 11 17:56:01 # ? Dec 11 17:56:19 should Dec 11 17:56:31 Midrori video from Mer :P http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2860444474240852735 Dec 11 17:56:56 acid3 :) 100/100 Dec 11 17:57:48 no applets, same behaviro with start-hildon Dec 11 17:58:59 running locale-gen Dec 11 18:02:55 r2d2rogers, was rather about if it boots sanely with rm of .osso and editing statusbar.conf, and rebooting Dec 11 18:03:09 AHhha Dec 11 18:03:11 k Dec 11 18:03:13 will try Dec 11 18:03:43 do this from maemo, in the mer fs Dec 11 18:04:10 Meiz_n810, will see video in 30 mins Dec 11 18:04:17 k Dec 11 18:04:35 on gprs atm:P Dec 11 18:05:10 theoretically, would it be possible to use maemos flashplayer in Mer without any hacks? Dec 11 18:05:26 Mer uses maemos GTK ? Dec 11 18:05:38 yes, except we dont have esd atm Dec 11 18:05:43 yes Dec 11 18:05:53 the deblet one :P ? Dec 11 18:05:54 could be emulated probably if flash is really wanted Dec 11 18:06:12 * lardman shivers at the thought ;) Dec 11 18:07:17 lardman, flash worked in deblet so Dec 11 18:07:31 with esd? Dec 11 18:07:54 mm Dec 11 18:08:29 r2d2rogers, may vanish in a bit, gtting on a crowded bus Dec 11 18:08:34 I'm sure it could be wrapped Dec 11 18:09:12 any sqlite experts about? Dec 11 18:10:06 StsN800: cool Dec 11 18:10:14 6 year old wanting to play too Dec 11 18:11:10 next interface paradigm. glove friendly interface Dec 11 18:11:50 tips in the gloves Dec 11 18:11:53 StsN800: thought-interface! Dec 11 18:12:09 Meiz_n810, Maemo XChat compiled fine in Mer i386 chroot, all I did was run autorun.sh before configure in debian/rules Dec 11 18:13:06 pretty, does nothing to taps Dec 11 18:13:26 text labels are missing though? Dec 11 18:13:36 I did get the locale-gen to finish Dec 11 18:13:59 StsN800: for that, we'd need a large screen Dec 11 18:14:09 and it's overkill anyway Dec 11 18:14:40 now, thought-driven is almost feasible Dec 11 18:14:43 :> Dec 11 18:15:19 r2d2rogers, but no applets right? Dec 11 18:15:26 right Dec 11 18:16:29 weird Dec 11 18:16:47 I don't think it was the applets Dec 11 18:16:54 * lcuk2 sets tripwires around which drop xmas goodies on peoples heads Dec 11 18:17:51 xorg log when taps dont work could be nice Dec 11 18:18:24 yup Dec 11 18:19:14 what confuses me is that I can get a ugly but responsive version by running hildon-desktop.launch Dec 11 18:19:20 how was responsiveness when it was ugly? Dec 11 18:19:25 great Dec 11 18:19:29 quick Dec 11 18:19:55 could play with setting background color and set birghtness and all Dec 11 18:19:55 lardman, whats your db boggle, perhaps a bit of convo can cure it Dec 11 18:20:09 compared to os2008he Dec 11 18:20:09 ? Dec 11 18:20:19 I have that loaded with screenlets Dec 11 18:20:25 but comparable if not faser Dec 11 18:20:28 faster Dec 11 18:20:37 r2d2rogers, whats up with liqbase on device Dec 11 18:20:42 on mer * Dec 11 18:20:44 send me the log Dec 11 18:20:48 haven't tried yet Dec 11 18:20:50 k Dec 11 18:21:02 got a chance to play with liqbase on a 800 and wished I could run that too Dec 11 18:21:08 lcuk: will be glad to when we get hildon sorted Dec 11 18:21:47 r2d2rogers, its good progress at least Dec 11 18:21:54 StsN800: I agree Dec 11 18:22:05 its bloody good progress, im seeing an OS forming Dec 11 18:22:20 lcuk: I'm on a 770 with mer Dec 11 18:22:42 lcuk: I was wondering what;s not allowed in table names? Dec 11 18:22:55 StsN800: I think I need to pastebin the erros from hildon-desktop.launch and start-hildon for you Dec 11 18:23:12 lardman, just stick to normal variable identifier type names and stay away from normal sql keywords? Dec 11 18:23:20 ahhhh r2d2rogers Dec 11 18:23:25 r2d2rogers, k Dec 11 18:24:06 lcuk: so no punctuation, spaces, etc presumably Dec 11 18:24:25 though underscores are allowed I see? Dec 11 18:24:57 yeah - most sql will kinda sorta accept it, but its bad form and leads to heartache - ive never had a problem using sensible code type variable names in tables and fields Dec 11 18:25:19 cool Dec 11 18:25:20 until im told otherwise yeah Dec 11 18:25:21 thanks Dec 11 18:25:29 np :) Dec 11 18:25:59 underscores are allowed Dec 11 18:26:16 do protect against users entering single quotes (') Dec 11 18:26:37 rst, sqlite has query building printf specifically for that Dec 11 18:26:47 ah Dec 11 18:27:01 you use something like %q just like you use %s in normal printf and it does it for you Dec 11 18:27:17 ok Dec 11 18:27:21 but theres other higher level fns available for command objects Dec 11 18:27:35 the %q adds the single quotes around strings? Dec 11 18:27:50 i dunno i closed the page from last night Dec 11 18:27:55 :) Dec 11 18:28:01 no worries I can find it again :) Dec 11 18:28:03 i think you put the boundary outside ones yourself in the pattern Dec 11 18:28:46 printf("select * from users where name='%q'",lardman.name); reads as i would expect it to Dec 11 18:29:00 ok, so %q does what? Dec 11 18:29:16 stops ' from appearing? Dec 11 18:29:24 ensures ' is quoted correctly Dec 11 18:29:35 ah I see Dec 11 18:29:40 doesnt stop it from being used, just makes sure this doesnt happen: Dec 11 18:29:51 http://xkcd.com/327/ Dec 11 18:30:25 lcuk: thats a good one Dec 11 18:30:37 oooh 2 more downloads and i am 1337 :D Dec 11 18:31:01 need a few more votes though :P http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/liqbase/ ;) Dec 11 18:31:31 Stskeeps: hildon-desktop.launch http://pastebin.ca/1282848 Dec 11 18:31:42 hello world Dec 11 18:31:49 anyone here intimately familiar w/ apt? Dec 11 18:32:22 hiya timeless, according to your boolean logic i dont think thats physically possible Dec 11 18:32:41 lcuk: alright Dec 11 18:32:49 i'm looking for someone who can tell me what Apt::System should look like Dec 11 18:32:56 how about that? :) Dec 11 18:33:24 actually.... http://idle.slashdot.org/idle/08/12/11/0348217.shtml Dec 11 18:33:44 yeah, i saw that earlier Dec 11 18:33:58 was able to set a background Dec 11 18:34:03 and background color Dec 11 18:34:05 but seriously, i need to know what Apt::System should look like Dec 11 18:35:27 dunno Dec 11 18:35:53 disco_stu, xkcd has a sketch for pretty much every part of life, its like its own rule34 Dec 11 18:36:11 yeah Dec 11 18:37:41 Stskeeps: start-hildon http://pastebin.ca/1282850 Dec 11 18:38:23 lcuk: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ballmer_peak.png <- like this? :P Dec 11 18:38:36 thats TRUE! Dec 11 18:38:54 but for me and lardman its a bit wibbly and changes day to day Dec 11 18:38:59 yup Dec 11 18:39:06 but indeed requires calibration Dec 11 18:39:15 and for prolonged use, vitamin C and water :P Dec 11 18:39:30 the peak is actually a bit wider Dec 11 18:39:30 heh yeah Dec 11 18:48:31 r2d2rogers: hildon-launch doesnt start sapwood, matchbox and such Dec 11 18:48:40 yeah Dec 11 18:48:46 I think they were recycled Dec 11 18:49:02 or still there when I just killed hildon-desktop Dec 11 18:49:06 mm Dec 11 18:49:23 sapwood is taking 98.5% of CPU right now according to top Dec 11 18:49:28 ick :P Dec 11 18:49:36 it's weird it works second time but not first Dec 11 18:50:01 yeah we had problems demo'ing Ocra for that reason before Dec 11 18:50:11 ocra? Dec 11 18:50:18 Stskeeps: saw the video? :P Dec 11 18:50:22 lookin Dec 11 18:51:58 lcuk: have u tried to build/run clutter on maemo..? Dec 11 18:52:19 madhav: we don't have opengl .. :P Dec 11 18:52:35 there's mesa now Dec 11 18:52:44 supposedly in fremantle Dec 11 18:52:56 yeah, but mesa's mesa Dec 11 18:53:04 slow, very Dec 11 18:54:08 did everyone see http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2860444474240852735&ei=GlxBSdmQN4qGiQLr2e38Cw&q=n810+Mer ? Dec 11 18:54:30 Stskeeps: it'll take a while Dec 11 18:54:40 true, 64kb? Dec 11 18:54:49 or just -everyone-? ;) Dec 11 18:55:38 lcuk: lol Dec 11 18:56:18 StsKeeps: i think mesa/glutes is there right? Dec 11 18:56:39 Meiz_n810: thumbs up on the video, looks speedy Dec 11 18:56:55 Stskeeps: hildonize menu plz Dec 11 18:57:00 AStorm: yes, obviously Dec 11 18:57:01 :) Dec 11 18:57:25 btw, does it have kinetic scrolling? Dec 11 18:57:27 Stskeeps: it is speedy, think about my connection 40-56kb/s Dec 11 18:57:53 StsKeeps: http://unrealvoodoo.org/hiteck/blog/graphics/opengl-es-for-maemo/ Dec 11 18:58:29 madhav: just call me Sts Dec 11 18:58:32 * Meiz_n810 thinks someone will kick his ass, if he naggs more about his slow connection Dec 11 18:59:46 madhav: software rendering Dec 11 18:59:49 madhav: interesting :P Dec 11 18:59:53 i'll try Dec 11 19:00:07 ah Dec 11 19:00:15 ptyhon opengl Dec 11 19:00:27 gears are not really fash Dec 11 19:00:35 s/fash/fast/ Dec 11 19:00:36 Meiz_n810 meant: gears are not really fast Dec 11 19:00:55 Sts: so maemo has not h/w rendering.. Dec 11 19:01:13 what abt VFP? Dec 11 19:01:57 Stskeeps: now build Firefox 3.1b2 and compare Dec 11 19:02:07 :) Dec 11 19:02:17 madhav: n8x0 should have, but we're missing a driver Dec 11 19:02:26 VFP is FPU... Dec 11 19:02:33 yes.. Dec 11 19:03:06 so what, it's still slow Dec 11 19:03:16 we would need that PowerVR driver Dec 11 19:04:02 powerVR driver..? Dec 11 19:04:44 yes, n8x0 have a PowerVR chip inside Dec 11 19:04:58 the same as in n96 afaicr Dec 11 19:05:25 thats cool... Dec 11 19:05:42 except we have no driver, and especially no opensource driver Dec 11 19:07:49 * timeless sighs Dec 11 19:07:53 * timeless hates it when apt crashes Dec 11 19:08:00 apt crashes? omg Dec 11 19:08:12 what did you do to it? Dec 11 19:08:27 iirc it doesn't like an unupdated config Dec 11 19:08:40 and i never remember to do apt-get update before apt-cache search Dec 11 19:10:49 madhav, i have src copied onto device but its in a backlog at the moment, ive got some ideas re: clutter Dec 11 19:11:43 lcuk: i guess there seems to be no opengl on device.. Dec 11 19:12:10 thats not my problem, we can get software gl - its having the build tools - i can't run "configure" on any package atm Dec 11 19:12:30 ok, cool Dec 11 19:13:14 lcuk: some ideas related to clutter..? Dec 11 19:13:59 well i have no real ui framework (i think the one i initially put into liqbase is incomplete and inflexible) so im actively seeking a box manager Dec 11 19:14:03 why not use clutter... ? Dec 11 19:14:46 it a good idea ..clutter is really gud, simple, modular.. Dec 11 19:14:48 no need for the full real 3d experience and still render in 2d as i do now, but for managing boxes and overlays and stuff i think it might work Dec 11 19:15:15 kinda like the southpark type thing - they use 3d engine to produce 2d animation Dec 11 19:15:33 and i get the bonus of complete speedup later Dec 11 19:15:47 as i said, just an idea Dec 11 19:16:14 it looks to be a very good idea.. Dec 11 19:16:38 lcuk: have u checked Wayland X server Dec 11 19:17:09 i need to actually draw onto the xv overlay Dec 11 19:18:25 lcuk: http://groups.google.com/group/wayland-display-server/ Dec 11 19:19:34 technically i should just drop back and use the existing x11 since its there, but its hacks on hacks - ill take a look at this though its moving away from the current ui directions Dec 11 19:31:49 ok, problems all done Dec 11 19:32:01 fremantle sdk should be something i could push on monday Dec 11 19:37:09 for mxr or in general? :P Dec 11 19:37:11 does searching for NU Dec 11 19:37:14 oops Dec 11 19:37:24 does searching for NULL match any record? Dec 11 19:37:31 in sqlite Dec 11 19:39:21 "select * from my_table where id=1 and name=NULL" for example? Dec 11 19:40:33 lardman: no, wrong Dec 11 19:40:37 and name is NULL Dec 11 19:40:38 :) Dec 11 19:40:50 nothing can be equal to NULL in SQL Dec 11 19:41:20 no, I really want to not match name in that case Dec 11 19:41:26 even null is not equal to null Dec 11 19:41:30 hmm Dec 11 19:41:47 does anyone have a slate tablet knocking around unused and unloved? it could have a nice shiny new home. *smiles sweetly* Dec 11 19:41:54 so I'll have to construct my command column by column, checking to see if each has a value? Dec 11 19:42:00 lardman: you just want to skip the predicate Dec 11 19:42:10 select * from my_table where id=1 Dec 11 19:42:11 AStorm: gone above my level there? Dec 11 19:42:17 ah Dec 11 19:42:20 this will give everything with id=1 Dec 11 19:42:24 regardless of name Dec 11 19:42:43 well I want to feed a fn a number of pointers to fields, that may or may not be null, then search for those that are not null Dec 11 19:42:43 lcuk, my friend from Nigeria will ship you one with £1,000,000 on top Dec 11 19:42:57 nice Dec 11 19:43:24 lardman: probably Dec 11 19:43:37 AStorm: and was hoping that %Q would null out the ones that point to 0 and let me search, rather than having to check manually and construct a command piece by piece Dec 11 19:46:49 lardman, are you looking to build something like "select * from datarows where upn in (1,3434,2322,12323,2232823)" Dec 11 19:47:34 hmm Dec 11 19:47:46 qwerty12_N800: I want one, what do I have to do? :P Dec 11 19:47:53 no, sending money is out of question Dec 11 19:48:13 more like fn(*upn, *title, *price); "select * from table where Dec 11 19:48:28 hey qgil Dec 11 19:48:32 construct piecewise then Dec 11 19:48:38 AStorm, just send him your documents, no money needed :p Dec 11 19:48:39 hi there Dec 11 19:48:41 yeah i agree with astorm Dec 11 19:48:41 AStorm: ok, thanks Dec 11 19:48:47 cheers chaps Dec 11 19:48:55 qwerty12_N800: oh, can't Dec 11 19:48:58 thats a custom filter function and not what the nullable thing is for really Dec 11 19:48:59 it's illegal here Dec 11 19:49:06 Damn! Dec 11 19:49:24 * qwerty12_N800 lobbies for a change in Polish law :P Dec 11 19:49:54 hmm, sounds dubious Dec 11 19:50:49 hiya qgil, you are becoming quite the regular :D Dec 11 19:51:34 only this week Dec 11 19:51:47 nothing personal but I'm getting screen overdose Dec 11 19:52:03 and my partner starts looking me with mixed attitude Dec 11 19:52:17 :) Dec 11 19:52:35 Heh, ssh from your n810 then ;) Dec 11 19:52:38 I'm impressed about the big share Stskeeps & co get for Mer Dec 11 19:52:39 Hide it. Dec 11 19:52:42 heh, have you found a movie download site yet? Dec 11 19:52:55 lcuk: nope Dec 11 19:53:11 lcuk: It is pretty sad that doing the right thing is too hard. Dec 11 19:53:17 boo, thats not good - talk it up with people in your place Dec 11 19:53:36 X-Fade, it will come Dec 11 19:54:43 lcuk: Sure, just before the major studios go bankrupt. Dec 11 19:55:58 some business models will change, and if its what the users want they are the fools to not listen. though whilst we internet folks are loud and vocal we may not actually "get it" ourselves yet Dec 11 19:56:30 Still, it is pretty sad that the easiest way to see a movie is to download the torrent. Dec 11 19:57:30 how do you deal with payment though, serious question for woldwide handling Dec 11 19:58:02 No, paypal, CC, whatever. Just pick an amount in local currency and be done with it. Dec 11 19:58:09 This isn't rocket science ;) Dec 11 19:58:27 sure it is - itunes isnt available worldwide Dec 11 19:58:33 Something like itunes with drm would be the solution. Dec 11 19:58:38 but i can buy a movie in any market in the world Dec 11 19:58:45 We need to stop deviding sales in regions. Dec 11 19:58:58 One region: world. Dec 11 19:59:02 Problem solved ;) Dec 11 19:59:04 i agree, im with you on this - merely being devil Dec 11 20:00:19 X-Fade, not everyone accepts drm by the way Dec 11 20:00:54 Hmm I typed with, but obviously ment without ;) Dec 11 20:01:35 ok, thats movies sorted Dec 11 20:01:48 do we do the same with other software? Dec 11 20:05:11 qgil: hehe, yeah, maybe a bit unfair share compared to what fremantle will give right now - fremantle is light years ahead, and people probably want to see the UI and hardware, which i'm sure they'll just love. :) Dec 11 20:05:36 the passion people are putting in even rumours about fremantle & hw is impressive Dec 11 20:07:32 Stskeeps: It is like a puzzle. Try to find out what your future device will look like by grepping the code ;) Dec 11 20:07:53 X-Fade: yes, we had a kernel code drool-off the other night ;) Dec 11 20:08:22 yeah x-fade, but by the excitement of these guys if nokia doesnt include a drip-tray for the drool the devices wont last long Dec 11 20:09:35 waterproof screen protector Dec 11 20:09:56 lcuk: Sure, but most people are end-user. And they will not have an opinion about Fremantle until they can load an image on their device. Dec 11 20:10:10 So for now it is only cool for the hardcore platform guys. Dec 11 20:11:01 lcuk X-Fade the saddest thing is that I'm not even after the blockbusters and top Holywood sellers Dec 11 20:11:15 since I can get those in the videoclub of the corner Dec 11 20:11:27 qgil: Might I suggest the discount dvd box in the stores? :) Dec 11 20:11:28 yes, the TLAs and code numbers and alphas mean nothing outside Dec 11 20:12:35 Meiz_n810: you should post your video on jaiku too Dec 11 20:12:36 I'm happy paying to watch independent cinema and productions from Iran, South Korea, Argentina, etc etc Dec 11 20:13:11 but there seems to be not a "right" way to do so Dec 11 20:15:25 Stskeeps: "the passion people are putting in even rumours about fremantle & hw is impressive" Dec 11 20:15:52 what is impressive is to see that debating about rumours is always more interesting than debating about facts Dec 11 20:15:56 hehe, yeah Dec 11 20:16:36 I'm quite puzzled about the LTE debate in the "Maemo 5 Reveals its Features" thread Dec 11 20:16:38 heh rumours are good in a way :) Dec 11 20:17:09 qgil: I want satellite communications on the tablet after this one. Can you call the design guys for me? Dec 11 20:17:13 Thanks. Dec 11 20:17:25 one tablet per child programme, with lte, .. hmm :P Dec 11 20:17:34 post a comment in ITt and they will add it to the roadmap Dec 11 20:17:49 heh ;) Dec 11 20:19:51 moo all Dec 11 20:20:00 moo, RST38h Dec 11 20:20:03 w000t! can we add a laser for the sat comms? Dec 11 20:20:16 X-Fade: As long as you are comfortable with a 1m satellite dish... Dec 11 20:20:30 and a battery lasting 2 mins Dec 11 20:20:43 better yet: screw the satcom, the 3D, the memory, the Linux Dec 11 20:20:57 Just leave ONE BIG DEADLY FUCKING LASER Dec 11 20:20:58 RST38h: No, but a 16GP camera so I can see rocks on the moon, would be nice. Dec 11 20:21:26 RST38h: anti-thief protection? :P Dec 11 20:21:31 n9000000 now with sharks Dec 11 20:21:33 X-Fade: With 16GP camera of this size you will mostly see the laws of thermodynamics Dec 11 20:21:49 qgil, see what you started :P Dec 11 20:22:08 so, basically a Jedi Knight Sword but real one, not just accelerated noise Dec 11 20:22:25 no, the noise is important Dec 11 20:22:26 qgil: I would really appreciate a bigger range. Dec 11 20:22:31 they really make that sound Dec 11 20:22:39 qgil; At least 10-50 km Dec 11 20:22:48 for the touchscreen? Dec 11 20:22:50 noise is not important Dec 11 20:22:56 sure, I'm not dropping the sound, just adding the Real Laser feature Dec 11 20:23:04 excellent! Dec 11 20:23:33 tbh, i REALLY wouldn't be surprised that there isnt a prototype somewhere ;) Dec 11 20:23:57 RST38h: I'm sure the N800 camera component can be revamped to allow users making nice sky effects with their thumbs Dec 11 20:25:06 omg, backwards compatible as well!!! i was sure i would need to buy a new device to get the laser feature :D Dec 11 20:25:27 qgil: Don't need a camera for that - a decent random number generator will do just as well =) Dec 11 20:25:49 heh - with the 8x0 camera isnt that the same thing :D Dec 11 20:27:00 RST38h: I mean to put the laser in the place of the camera, keeping the rotation Dec 11 20:27:53 qgil: Ah, wherever, as long as it can burn through buildings and vaporize vehicles/people Dec 11 20:27:55 qgil: As you can see: one new tablet is not enough for everybody. Dec 11 20:28:00 We need a complete range. Dec 11 20:28:16 from small battlefield munition all the way up to deathstar rated Dec 11 20:28:36 qgil: Seriously though, would appreciate a lot if you found a person inside Nokia responsible for manufacturing of the next tablet and let them know of the glitch list from N810 Dec 11 20:29:01 speaking of which, is there an astronomy program for maemo? celestia like? Dec 11 20:29:12 mavhc, i believe there is Dec 11 20:29:18 i saw something about it Dec 11 20:29:19 I was not joking when I say that there is people scanning and bringing feedback Dec 11 20:29:27 Cool =) Dec 11 20:29:31 BUT Dec 11 20:29:34 https://garage.maemo.org/projects/maemo-stars/ Dec 11 20:29:35 RST38h: The fun we make here is because we are all on the software side. Nothing we can do about the hardware ;) Dec 11 20:29:43 put that thread in the right context Dec 11 20:29:51 - internal testing and feedback Dec 11 20:30:00 - focused groups studies Dec 11 20:30:01 X-Fade: Ah, I am pretty sure that an internal email to the right person can be of help Dec 11 20:30:07 - returned units Dec 11 20:30:11 - calls to Nokia Care Dec 11 20:30:20 Nokia Pilots program? Dec 11 20:30:25 - complaints to Nokia shops or other distributors Dec 11 20:30:34 qgil, you have said this before, and i think now a lot more useful discussion is boiled down into the wiki, though its still something we need to do more with Dec 11 20:30:42 hehe.. once you have the tablet it's hard to let go of it again :) Dec 11 20:30:43 X-Fade: There should be people responsible for production quality because those little mechanical/electrical problems increase return rates Dec 11 20:31:07 RST38h: Preaching ... choir.. you know.. Dec 11 20:31:16 RST38h: and for this reason there is people responsible for production quality Dec 11 20:31:43 RST38h: Did you see that Nokia testing clip? Dec 11 20:32:05 X-Fade: No, seen links to it, but I rarely watch online videos Dec 11 20:32:21 ive never seen a problem with hardware actually breaking, but the quality of components chosen in some instances leave something to be desired Dec 11 20:32:27 RST38h: Pretty amazing how and what they test.. Dec 11 20:32:43 lcuk: even the components are not so bad Dec 11 20:32:57 i mean the units themselves dont seem to break Dec 11 20:33:01 lcuk: but a few tiny design decisions increase wear and tear Dec 11 20:33:16 * Stskeeps is amazed how many times he has dropped his tablet. Dec 11 20:33:19 X-Fade: This is done in Brazil, right? Dec 11 20:33:22 without consequences Dec 11 20:33:23 My only grip with the N810 is that the keys scratch a bit.. Dec 11 20:33:28 which video? Dec 11 20:33:28 solca - just ran acros your nitdroid project. Awesome work. For my own personal knowledge, since I tried to do a porta while back. Did you just take a base 2.6.28-rc7 kernel and apply the omap patches Dec 11 20:33:40 RST38h: No, I've seen a UK institute movie. Dec 11 20:33:40 X-Fade: Actually, mine is rather about the front panel Dec 11 20:33:48 "few tiny design decisions" when you talk about hardware production of a model already in the streets.... Dec 11 20:33:50 X-Fade: So far I have only got one key scratched Dec 11 20:34:13 qgil: but I hope it is still not too late to check for the same problems in the next one =) Dec 11 20:34:32 RST38h: bottom 3 rows, from d to l here.. Dec 11 20:34:35 All keys Dec 11 20:34:38 X-Fade: oh shit Dec 11 20:34:43 but you have seen the list of feedback channels listed above Dec 11 20:34:50 But I carry it in my pocket all the time ;) Dec 11 20:34:53 and I'm sure there are more Dec 11 20:34:55 I ended up buying a case where all the keys are behind a sheet of clear plastic Dec 11 20:35:05 And it is about a year old. And if that is all :D Dec 11 20:35:11 RST38h, scratches? every device gets scratches Dec 11 20:35:21 I wonder what hardware related issues/opinions can you get in ITt with 5 users agreeing that hasn't been detected before Dec 11 20:35:23 X-Fade: Is the right side also loose on yours? Dec 11 20:35:26 * Stskeeps 's sony ericsson k610i is absolutely scratched. Dec 11 20:35:34 keys + cellphone != good mix Dec 11 20:35:38 RST38h: No. Dec 11 20:35:54 RST38h: I dropped it multiple times, no problems what so ever. Dec 11 20:35:55 What, people keep other stuff in same pocket as their phone? madness Dec 11 20:36:00 X-Fade: Weird...All the tablets I have seen are loose on the right side Dec 11 20:36:19 ShadowJK_: i've considered to get one of those flat 3g wifi gateways with battery Dec 11 20:36:21 lol qgil, i bet you missed the guy who almost killed his n810 by leaving it in a bag with a rotting banana :D its endemic you know! Dec 11 20:36:40 lcuk: So what happened? It ate his banana and got sick? Dec 11 20:36:40 ShadowJK_: and sow it into my jacket and have a charger hanging in my wardrobe. Dec 11 20:36:45 (serious one that, he was panicking - it had bugs and everything) Dec 11 20:36:48 Stskeeps, ... you mean a symbian phone? Dec 11 20:37:00 ShadowJK_: no, some other gadget Dec 11 20:37:01 se Dec 11 20:37:01 c Dec 11 20:37:04 ah, this is why there is that internal research project about unrottable bananas... Dec 11 20:37:13 [offtopic question: Anyone familiar with DirectFB?] Dec 11 20:37:22 Though joikuspot on E70 doesn't seem to know how to do wifi powersaving, so it doubles in pocket as a handwarmer Dec 11 20:37:30 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23001 Dec 11 20:37:38 Shadow: No way Dec 11 20:37:53 he had little insects inside machine Dec 11 20:37:57 i told him to file bugs :D Dec 11 20:38:07 Shadow: The thing is so thick and large that heating it whole takes more than the battery can supply =) Dec 11 20:38:10 ShadowJK_: or killing the next generation of nokia users.. Dec 11 20:38:45 lcuk: Can't it be solved the same way as that bricking problem? By placing tablet into a fridge? =) Dec 11 20:38:55 Stskeeps, if it goes through my thigh yeah.. Dec 11 20:39:17 * RST38h wonders how long will he have to keep his E70 Dec 11 20:39:19 ShadowJK_: http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/09/novatel-mifi-proves-3g-hotspot-and-sexy-can-coexist/ Dec 11 20:40:04 it's that or waiting for next device ;) Dec 11 20:40:37 RST38h, the case temp climbs to about 35C for me in EDGE+bluetooth (after, say, hours of continous downloading). Just having it running as AP with no data transfer makes it even hotter, though I haven't measured Dec 11 20:41:10 Shadow: Ah you download for hours... Dec 11 20:41:12 I measured the 35C on keypad, iirc Dec 11 20:41:22 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23001 the first post is like a nuromantic version of those stories of Madonnas crying blood tears... Dec 11 20:41:24 That would probably do some unpleasant wonders to my phone bill Dec 11 20:41:34 RST38h, EDGE is kinda high-latency, it's not good for much else ;P Dec 11 20:42:28 qgil: I bet either on thermal compound or on lubricant used in the slider mechanism Dec 11 20:42:40 qgil: the best post is the bug further down Dec 11 20:43:24 qgil: Other alternatives are 1) tablet pissed itself (unlikely) or 2) it is his own bodily fluids (eek!) Dec 11 20:43:42 melted sd card cos of the nuclear reactor inside the tablets.. Dec 11 20:44:37 Cute how somebody suspects the battery acid Dec 11 20:44:54 When THAT battery leaks, you really don't wanna be around... Dec 11 20:45:00 indeed :-) Dec 11 20:45:41 It's funny how the industry has invented politically correct jargon for it, "vent with flame" :-) (as opposed to just "explode") Dec 11 20:46:10 Shadow: There is "metallic overlap" in air traffic control Dec 11 20:46:19 flames indicate directionality - its like a blow torch usually Dec 11 20:46:52 "explode" could be link to terrorism and create tensions between countries Dec 11 20:47:14 anyway, I'm just proving that I should go to bed Dec 11 20:47:31 bye! Dec 11 20:47:32 it runs linux, it's already linked to terrorism Dec 11 20:47:36 g'night Dec 11 20:47:36 gnite qgil, hope you have found some movies for the weekend by then Dec 11 20:47:52 like Puha Pete Dec 11 20:48:22 Shit, I have two more things to work on Dec 11 20:48:35 tried checking the internet archive for films? Dec 11 20:48:46 omg, thats bob the builder Dec 11 20:48:49 what is "internet archive"? Dec 11 20:48:55 archive.org Dec 11 20:48:57 is it finnish translation? Dec 11 20:48:59 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KoY3iQmpIIk Dec 11 20:49:16 * lcuk thinks hes seen this one Dec 11 20:49:29 Hmm somebody is trying to make a HIM plugin for http://risujin.org/cellwriter/ Dec 11 20:49:53 Looks interesting. Dec 11 20:50:46 mmm that looks familiar http://liqbase.net/liq.20081124_225420.gary.scr.png Dec 11 20:50:49 :D Dec 11 20:51:07 im using mine to make a font though Dec 11 20:57:24 lcuk: cool :) Dec 11 20:58:26 yeah 'tis, will be better when everything comes back together for the next cycle :) Dec 11 20:59:36 but for now, i have code to ponder over and decisions to make Dec 11 20:59:39 back later Dec 11 21:04:30 Meiz_n810: nice touch on the acid test Dec 11 21:42:42 * Stskeeps ponders taking another jab at sb2 Dec 11 21:43:26 * qwerty12_N800 prays for Stskeeps's sanity Dec 11 21:43:50 well a cross-compilation sdk is needed, to avoid us from going insane over build wait times Dec 11 21:43:53 :P Dec 11 21:44:00 * lcuk takes another jab at Stskeeps Dec 11 21:44:12 hehe Dec 11 21:44:21 * lcuk hits him with a 1d vector Dec 11 21:45:17 qwerty12_N800, what would i use to make gcc compile a c file into a .so ? Dec 11 21:45:31 Stskeeps, get me a sb1 armel environment for mer, and i'll happily build apps properly :p Dec 11 21:46:10 lcuk, sorry, no idea Dec 11 21:46:15 qwerty12_N800: yeah, but im not sure that's saner Dec 11 21:46:15 :P Dec 11 21:46:53 Stskeeps, sb2 drives me insane :P Dec 11 21:47:17 huzzah :D gcc -shared -lc -o mylib.so mylib.o Dec 11 21:47:25 :) Dec 11 21:47:29 or something like that Dec 11 21:48:03 qwerty12_N800: did you read m-vo's post btw? Dec 11 21:48:34 Stskeeps, bits, but i gets the part where sb2 is the shit Dec 11 21:49:04 qwerty12_N800: he's actually saying the opposite, that sb2 is way too overreaching Dec 11 21:49:10 and needs a shot of sanity Dec 11 21:49:15 * qwerty12_N800 is probably an old timer. while everyone uses sb2 & git, i'll be screaming for sb1 and svn Dec 11 21:49:54 K.I.S.S Dec 11 21:50:01 Stskeeps, ah, seems i didn't read it then, but I guess sb2 is the way to go Dec 11 21:50:03 the simpler the better Dec 11 21:50:31 i will feel better iwth a full devenv on tablet that i can run "configure" from without hacking to do so Dec 11 21:50:57 speed is not important for the kinds of projects i want to examine, but my vmware is gone totally now and the laptop is dead Dec 11 21:54:13 lcuk, did you ever get around to trying andlinux? has its problems, but way easier on your sanity than vmware. of course, I do recommend using linux for real ;) Dec 11 21:55:02 i recommend it as well, but i will not move to linux for another (checks watch) about 3 weeks. i am determined to have a large format touchscreen slate this year :) Dec 11 21:55:42 hehe, nice :) Dec 11 21:55:46 if i move i have to feel my code :) Dec 11 21:57:18 * qwerty12_N800 should try liqbase on the old xbox (sits around doing nothing anyway) and see how it is on a tv for fu :p Dec 11 21:57:26 fun even Dec 11 21:59:05 it is buildable on standard desktop linux with a couple of flags, but the experience isnt that great close up - might work nicely on a tv Dec 11 21:59:18 i need a touchscreen to test it though :) Dec 11 21:59:32 i hate seeing it fakey Dec 11 22:00:17 so, if anyone has a touchscreen pc knocking around they really arent using and could do with some love send it my way ;) Dec 11 22:01:20 lcuk, come to our school, electronic whiteboards are taken quite a lot :p Dec 11 22:01:33 right, forgot those Dec 11 22:01:39 electronic whiteboards. Mer target. Dec 11 22:01:43 heh, i imagine you live inside a touchscreen cube by now Dec 11 22:01:49 make your own with a wii controller Dec 11 22:01:55 lol Stskeeps send me one ill port it Dec 11 22:01:56 i plan to. Dec 11 22:02:00 (mavhc) Dec 11 22:47:23 GeneralAntilles: ping Dec 11 22:47:29 pong Dec 11 22:47:33 hey Dec 11 22:48:45 * Stskeeps wonders if he'll have any hair left after spending too long time with sb Dec 11 22:48:46 2 Dec 11 22:50:59 heh Dec 11 22:51:11 you did what kam didn't like now, w00t? Dec 11 23:24:28 * Stskeeps glares at sb2 Dec 11 23:29:03 * lcuk flicks a rubberband @ Stskeeps Dec 11 23:34:39 night all Dec 11 23:35:00 ok, something is definately wrong in their symlink handling Dec 11 23:37:55 i can rm etc/fonts/conf.d/somesymlink to ../whatever, but not /etc/fonts/conf.d.. Dec 11 23:38:05 hmm. Dec 11 23:46:06 darn, the bluetooth remote keyboard doesn't work if the n810 is locked Dec 12 00:12:01 * Stskeeps notes himself two bugs found so far Dec 12 00:15:23 Stskeeps, I assume you're gonna want a Bugzilla product at some point? Dec 12 00:16:19 GeneralAntilles: mm, i was actually talking about sb2 bugs Dec 12 00:17:53 i was annoyed at it erroring at many deb packages and i think i know why Dec 12 00:23:39 ive just read power blackouts are possible. can i get an exercise bike which would keep a couple of NITs charged? Dec 12 00:24:11 i'd say solar cell but that's kinda useless in britain. Dec 12 00:24:11 :P Dec 12 00:25:59 lcuk, sure, but you gotta find an old Jewish guy to power it for you. :P Dec 12 00:26:50 nahhh i just wanna see if i can keep em running Dec 12 00:27:10 Just remember, Soylent Green is people. ;) Dec 12 00:27:26 om nom nom Dec 12 00:27:30 gnite anyway Dec 12 00:35:04 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19032 Dec 12 00:35:09 weirdest bug ever Dec 12 00:46:48 stskeeps: i have a bug where we're crashing because _gdk_windownew or something like that retunred null Dec 12 00:46:55 i bet it's weirder than your bug Dec 12 00:48:04 returned null? doesn't it smell a bit of malloc failure? :P Dec 12 00:48:11 sure Dec 12 00:48:14 so what? Dec 12 00:48:25 gtk is supposed to kill itself when mallocs happen Dec 12 00:48:35 except this wasn't one of those cases Dec 12 00:48:40 so it isn't actually a malloc failure Dec 12 00:48:44 which is what makes it cool Dec 12 00:48:53 stack corruption, perhaps Dec 12 00:48:58 the caller incorrectly assumes that the callee could never fail Dec 12 00:49:06 whereas the callee has a couple of ways to fail Dec 12 00:49:16 i'm fairly certain it failed because the passed parent was a destroyed window Dec 12 00:49:22 and it didn't approve :) Dec 12 00:49:32 no true memory 'corruption' Dec 12 00:49:55 it's just quite weird Dec 12 01:32:43 hrm, places as a daemon could make my group happy Dec 12 01:44:23 is there away to adjust volume or toggle mute via the command shell? Dec 12 02:05:50 hydester: of course, terminal can do everything . its just a matter of what the command is ;p Dec 12 02:41:46 hello Dec 12 02:42:02 Hi Dec 12 02:42:44 sweet, this works great on the tablet Dec 12 02:43:06 gotta get ready for the meeting Sunday **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Dec 12 02:59:57 2008