**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jan 11 02:59:57 2009
Jan 11 03:12:25 <limepi> hey there, I'm having trouble getting an apple bluetooth keyboard to pair with my n800--I just installed diablo
Jan 11 03:12:59 <limepi> at first it gave me the error message "pairing failed device resources exceeded"
Jan 11 03:13:20 <limepi> but after my reboot, it won't even let me get past the "searching" window
Jan 11 03:25:23 * deejoe realizes he hasn't tried his apple bt keybd since upgrading
Jan 11 03:25:33 <doc|home> is canola broken? not really updating its media library for audio files for me even though I've said to look at both cards
Jan 11 03:25:46 <deejoe> mine is an older one with more plastic.  you have one of the silvery ones with chiclet keys, limepi?
Jan 11 03:30:27 <limepi> deejoe: yep
Jan 11 03:30:37 <limepi> it worked with... chinook?
Jan 11 03:42:18 <macly> I realize this may be a taboo question (or an unwanted one) and I apologize.  I've been looking around to get an N810 and the only reputable place I've seen to get it is amazon, but they keep raising the price (currently around $400)  Where should I be looking?
Jan 11 03:43:12 <limepi> hmm... perhaps the internettablettalk.com forums
Jan 11 03:43:16 <limepi> fora?
Jan 11 03:48:02 <GeneralAntilles> limepi, fora is probably more correct, but both usages are fairly common
Jan 11 03:48:08 <GeneralAntilles> I find fora a bit stilted myself.
Jan 11 03:48:28 <GeneralAntilles> macly, the N810 is kinda close to EoL
Jan 11 03:49:14 <GeneralAntilles> macly, you can either wait for the next tablet around Summer (probably ~$500) which is going to be waaaay better, or maybe buy a used N810 now for cheap.
Jan 11 03:52:56 <macly> GeneralAntilles, cool. I'm just not really into some of the features of the next gen maemo tyablet :\
Jan 11 03:53:03 <macly> I appreciate the input though
Jan 11 03:53:04 <GeneralAntilles> macly, er?
Jan 11 03:53:12 <GeneralAntilles> What "features" could you not be into?
Jan 11 03:53:24 <GeneralAntilles> 2-3x the speed or accelerated 3D perhaps?
Jan 11 03:53:29 <macly> WWAN is one of them honestly
Jan 11 03:53:40 <GeneralAntilles> You don't need a contract
Jan 11 03:53:41 <GeneralAntilles> Just ignore it.
Jan 11 03:53:49 <macly> yeah...
Jan 11 03:53:52 <GeneralAntilles> It doesn't do anything if you don't use it.
Jan 11 03:54:11 <macly> I'll have to re-read the spec list...
Jan 11 03:54:38 <GeneralAntilles> Some speculation based on recent code drops: http://maemo.org/community/council/community_highlights_for_december_2008-part_i-january_2009-part_ii/
Jan 11 04:00:52 <macly> GeneralAntilles, I just remember something I had heard earlier had turned me off... I guess we'll see :)  I do appreciate the info though
Jan 11 04:01:12 <GeneralAntilles> Really, the N810 is slow and basically EoL
Jan 11 04:01:18 <GeneralAntilles> Don't expect continued software updates
Jan 11 04:01:43 <macly> yeah. I'll probably end up digging my heels until the new one comes out... then impulse buy :) it's my usual MO :D
Jan 11 04:02:32 <macly> (I'm a MBP pre-orderer for instance)
Jan 11 04:04:22 <GeneralAntilles> Whatever other detriments there may be, OMAP3 outweighs all of them.
Jan 11 05:24:10 <TheFatal> # apt-get update  ->  E: Falta el directorio de archivos /var/cache/apt/archives/partial.
Jan 11 05:24:14 <TheFatal> :S
Jan 11 05:26:36 <TheFatal> # apt-get update  ->  E: Missing directory of files /var/cache/apt/archives/partial.
Jan 11 05:27:13 <bef0rd> uhm se borro? crealo
Jan 11 05:27:19 <AstralSt> mkdir it
Jan 11 05:28:00 <AstralSt> heh, it's almost time to move all my system to sd (immc actually)
Jan 11 05:28:30 <AstralSt> but first, I need a kernel with btrfs working and omapfb driver built against new kernel headers
Jan 11 05:36:14 <AstralSt> any gotchas to look out for?
Jan 11 05:36:52 <bef0rd> no heh
Jan 11 05:39:42 <bef0rd> I've only used external kernel for rotation support, is there any other available?
Jan 11 05:40:19 <TheFatal> I do not know other
Jan 11 05:40:58 <TheFatal> Can i install Ubuntu mobile to a N810
Jan 11 05:41:00 <TheFatal> ??
Jan 11 05:41:21 <bef0rd> no
Jan 11 05:41:25 <bef0rd> that's x86
Jan 11 05:41:31 <bef0rd> unless you compile it
Jan 11 05:41:56 <TheFatal> Too much work :P
Jan 11 05:42:07 <TheFatal> And gnome mobile ??
Jan 11 05:42:55 <bef0rd> dunno
Jan 11 05:42:57 <bef0rd> what's that?
Jan 11 05:43:35 <TheFatal> Gnome desktop for mobile devices
Jan 11 05:44:13 <TheFatal> Motorola is using it
Jan 11 05:44:23 <TheFatal> On new device
Jan 11 05:45:03 <bef0rd> but, maemo desktop is already using gnome stuff
Jan 11 05:47:06 <TheFatal> Not all
Jan 11 05:47:10 <GeneralAntilles> Nokia is involved in the GNOME Mobile initiative.
Jan 11 05:47:52 <TheFatal> I saw than a new gnome mobile desktop exist
Jan 11 05:48:37 <GeneralAntilles> http://www.gnome.org/mobile/
Jan 11 05:50:31 <TheFatal> Sorry, old new... So there is not exist another S.O. For N810 ??
Jan 11 05:52:15 <GeneralAntilles> SO?
Jan 11 05:52:22 <GeneralAntilles> I'm familiar with DEs, but not SOs.
Jan 11 05:52:38 <bef0rd> O.S
Jan 11 05:52:41 <bef0rd> oses
Jan 11 05:53:05 <bef0rd> there's debian, ubuntu, I read somebody is running gentoo .. but thery are all linux heh
Jan 11 05:53:11 <GeneralAntilles> https://wiki.maemo.org/Alternative_operating_systems
Jan 11 05:54:18 <AFBN810> Hey
Jan 11 05:55:54 <AFBN810> xchat looks alot better with tabs on top
Jan 11 05:56:43 <limepi> and with white-on-black text
Jan 11 05:56:59 <AstralSt> bef0rd: port minix to it ;P
Jan 11 05:57:03 <AstralSt> shouldn't be hard
Jan 11 05:57:14 <AstralSt> there's definitely no Windows Mobile if you're after that
Jan 11 05:57:42 <limepi> anyone here know about pairing an apple bluetooth keyboard w/diablo
Jan 11 05:57:49 <limepi> I just updated
Jan 11 05:57:57 <limepi> and now it won't pair :(
Jan 11 05:57:58 <AstralSt> it should just work
Jan 11 05:58:05 <AstralSt> maybe remove the device and readd it
Jan 11 05:58:13 <AFBN810> white on black easier to read?
Jan 11 05:58:25 <limepi> AFBN810: yep
Jan 11 05:58:36 <limepi> AstralSt: oh, I've tried that countless times
Jan 11 05:58:41 <AstralSt> AFBN810: not on LCD
Jan 11 05:58:54 <AstralSt> on LCD, esp. transflective, black on white is better
Jan 11 05:59:12 <AstralSt> higher contrast
Jan 11 05:59:38 <AstralSt> technical limitation - everyone should switch to OLED already ;)
Jan 11 05:59:49 <AFBN810> yeah white on black is easier on tablet
Jan 11 06:00:10 <AstralSt> oh really?
Jan 11 06:00:18 <GeneralAntilles> It is for me.
Jan 11 06:00:21 <GeneralAntilles> Transmission display
Jan 11 06:00:24 <AstralSt> I get huge evil reflections in sunlight
Jan 11 06:00:35 <AstralSt> makes it totally unreadable
Jan 11 06:00:46 <AstralSt> actually, in any light
Jan 11 06:00:50 <GeneralAntilles> You need a nice screen protector
Jan 11 06:00:55 <AstralSt> ...
Jan 11 06:00:56 <AFBN810> not sure about in sun light
Jan 11 06:01:00 <AstralSt> it's a transflective screen
Jan 11 06:01:08 <AstralSt> no amount of protection will help
Jan 11 06:01:16 <AstralSt> it's designed to reflect some light
Jan 11 06:01:34 <AstralSt> also, I can't get the right protector
Jan 11 06:01:49 <AstralSt> which ones are ok? (last one I tried, muddled the screen to hell)
Jan 11 06:03:17 <AFBN810> I cut down a psp on since I'm to lasy to order ofline
Jan 11 06:04:22 <AstralSt> I tried one for PSP
Jan 11 06:04:32 <AstralSt> it muddled the screen a lot
Jan 11 06:04:39 <AstralSt> to the point of being hardly readable
Jan 11 06:05:25 <limepi> I nicked my screen a little bit in the lower corner
Jan 11 06:05:33 <limepi> is that something I can buff out with toothpaste
Jan 11 06:06:08 <AFBN810> speaking of colors GA do I need to follow some kind of color pattern for moble theme of talk.maemo.org?
Jan 11 06:06:46 <GeneralAntilles> AstralSt, the transflection reflects from behind the panel.
Jan 11 06:06:53 <AstralSt> GeneralAntilles: yes, so?
Jan 11 06:06:58 <GeneralAntilles> Anyway, I don't do my reading in sunlight.
Jan 11 06:07:05 <AstralSt> it still leaves nice reflections
Jan 11 06:07:07 <GeneralAntilles> limepi, toothpaste will just score it.
Jan 11 06:07:17 <bef0rd> AstralSt, I was checking, minix is only IA-32 :P there is a google summer of code project to port it to other architectures http://www.minix3.org/soc/
Jan 11 06:07:18 <AstralSt> sunlight? it reflects any light
Jan 11 06:07:20 <GeneralAntilles> AFBN810, http://openbossa.andrecunha.com/maemo/
Jan 11 06:07:32 <AstralSt> bef0rd: that's why I said you get to port it :)
Jan 11 06:07:43 <limepi> GeneralAntilles: which would, if I understand correctly, make it worse?
Jan 11 06:08:52 <bef0rd> AstralSt, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX and the wikipedia entry says it supports a lot of platforms ... heh
Jan 11 06:09:10 <AstralSt> not minix3
Jan 11 06:09:12 <AstralSt> :)
Jan 11 06:09:22 <AstralSt> you *still* get to port that one
Jan 11 06:12:36 <bef0rd> oh
Jan 11 06:20:29 * AFBN810 thinks about having to design something with standards
Jan 11 06:20:50 <AstralSt> AFBN810: something? like, a gizmo?
Jan 11 06:21:29 <AFBN810> a forums template
Jan 11 06:21:55 <AFBN810> Last one I picked colors now I have to follow rules
Jan 11 07:08:16 <samd> hi, is there any way to see powr point presentations on my  n810?
Jan 11 07:09:14 <AstralSt> google docs maybe
Jan 11 07:09:27 <AstralSt> other than that, I don't think so
Jan 11 07:09:37 <AstralSt> convert them to PDF somewhere else and you'll be good
Jan 11 07:10:19 <samd> yea good point , pdf would be nice , thanks
Jan 11 08:32:14 <wazd> morning all
Jan 11 08:32:21 <johnx> mornin'
Jan 11 08:32:35 <qwerty12> hi
Jan 11 08:33:36 <qwerty12> It's annoying when you get used to running tar on every compressed file you find and you forget about gunzip & bunzip :)
Jan 11 08:34:10 <johnx> heh. done that before
Jan 11 08:34:19 <johnx> often zcat or bzcat is more useful though
Jan 11 08:34:45 <qwerty12> yeah :)
Jan 11 08:37:16 <wazd> http://s45.radikal.ru/i108/0901/ad/7d0a5e67d3db.jpg < brand new mer
Jan 11 08:37:54 <AstralSt> no UI? ;P
Jan 11 08:38:08 <johnx> hot!
Jan 11 08:38:12 <AstralSt> just-a-wallpaper OS?
Jan 11 08:38:25 <qwerty12> The best kind
Jan 11 08:38:44 <johnx> AstralSt, after lots of focus groups, we discovered that's all people really cared about
Jan 11 08:38:45 <wazd> AstralSt: It's UI is so great that it's invisible!11 © Palm
Jan 11 08:39:26 <Jaffa> Morning
Jan 11 08:39:30 <AstralSt> moaning
Jan 11 08:39:37 <wazd> hey
Jan 11 08:40:10 <Jaffa> wazd: Start-up screen? Nice.
Jan 11 08:40:37 <Jaffa> (wallpapers shouldn't have the logo as central, or prominent, IMHO)
Jan 11 08:40:45 <wazd> Jaffa: that's all in one)
Jan 11 08:40:54 <wazd> Jaffa: that's just a test :)
Jan 11 08:41:07 <wazd> Jaffa: wallpaper is without the logo
Jan 11 08:46:23 <Jaffa> wazd: looks very professional
Jan 11 08:46:54 <johnx> yes, looks very slick
Jan 11 08:47:00 <Jaffa> Wallpaper could have some subtle (largeish) bubbles added
Jan 11 08:48:00 <wazd> Jaffa: good idea
Jan 11 08:49:37 <wazd> I've remade all stuff from null - same dithering problem. avent got access to good desktop display, have to work on netbook, maybe that's because of screen color depth lack
Jan 11 08:51:50 <wazd> btw, I have VIA C7 powered netbook, and still I can do 1920x1200 images pretty well so it's not as sluggish as it's described :)
Jan 11 08:52:38 <Jaffa> Nice. What model?
Jan 11 08:52:49 <wazd> Jaffa: HP Mini 2133
Jan 11 08:53:11 <wazd> Jaffa: but still Atom is faster :)
Jan 11 08:54:30 * Jaffa had an original Eeeeeeee; very cool, but didn't use it enough once my N810 arrived
Jan 11 08:54:51 <Jaffa> My dell laptop is just so big & heavy tho'
Jan 11 08:55:08 <wazd> Ee 701 was celeron powered, good book :)
Jan 11 08:56:56 <johnx> wazd, liking the 2133 overall?
Jan 11 08:58:00 <wazd> johnx: yep, superawesome even after half-a-year using )
Jan 11 08:58:32 <wazd> johnx: aluminium casing is more than adorable
Jan 11 08:58:36 <johnx> great! that's what I like to hear. I'm lusting after a 2140 with a 6-cell battery, but might go for a mini 1000
Jan 11 08:59:14 <wazd> johnx: better wait for top 2140, it's a killer device for sure
Jan 11 08:59:42 <johnx> yeah, have to wait anyways from a purchasing perspective :)
Jan 11 08:59:48 <wazd> johnx: there's really nothing to compare with on the market
Jan 11 09:00:08 <johnx> yeah, I got a chance to try most of the netbook keyboards side-by-side
Jan 11 09:00:30 <johnx> hp's the only one that didn't feel cramped. some combination of layout and the actual shape of the keys
Jan 11 09:01:30 <wazd> johnx: yep, I'm using it as my main PC since my desktop video gone to ardware heaven :)
Jan 11 09:01:41 <wazd> johnx: for about 2 months
Jan 11 09:03:54 <RST38h> moo all
Jan 11 09:04:00 <RST38h> WTH is multiply.com ?
Jan 11 09:05:00 <RST38h> wazd,johnx: Just buy yourself a real subnotebook like Portege R-series and stop drooling over quasiPCs
Jan 11 09:05:27 <wazd> RST38h: hello there)
Jan 11 09:05:34 <johnx> RST38h, Soon as you throw me the difference in cash :P
Jan 11 09:05:48 <wazd> RST38h: Actually I don't need that much power mobile
Jan 11 09:06:01 <RST38h> johnx: Make it work for you :)
Jan 11 09:06:16 <wazd> RST38h: So I don't want to pay for stuff I'd never use :)
Jan 11 09:06:26 <RST38h> wazd: netbooks are not very mobile - don't fit into a pocket, can't be used on the go
Jan 11 09:06:47 <RST38h> wazd: but I actually use a subnote as a desktop replacement, so not paying anything extra
Jan 11 09:06:50 <johnx> though actually, depending on the portege's screen size/weight/keyboard I might be happier with the hp anyways
Jan 11 09:07:20 <wazd> RST38h: for pocketable things I have n800, and I never used a notebook on the go, even the tablet one)
Jan 11 09:07:22 <roope> I think there is the pocket form factor and then there is the laptop form factor, but I'm not really convinced of the form factor in the middle.
Jan 11 09:07:25 <RST38h> johnx: Won't be - both screen and keyboard are physically larger and the weight is 1.25kg.
Jan 11 09:07:40 <roope> too big to be pocketable, too small to be really used like a laptop.
Jan 11 09:07:44 <johnx> so it's more expensive and less portable?
Jan 11 09:07:45 <AstralSt> well, we need more foldable screens and keyboards
Jan 11 09:08:00 <AstralSt> oh, wait
Jan 11 09:08:05 <AstralSt> we don't have video out on n810
Jan 11 09:08:08 <RST38h> wazd: Yep. But because netbooks aren't really mobile, why bother with them at all?
Jan 11 09:08:17 <AstralSt> I hope that this issue will be rectified in n9xx
Jan 11 09:08:25 <RST38h> johnx: It is as portable as any netbook
Jan 11 09:08:41 <wazd> RST38h: mine is mobile :) I can take it to my country and work there a bit :)
Jan 11 09:08:45 <RST38h> johnx: More expensive, yes, but you get what you pay for
Jan 11 09:08:56 <AstralSt> wazd: that kind of mobility I have with my standard laptop
Jan 11 09:09:07 <RST38h> wazd: I can do the same with any laptop really
Jan 11 09:09:08 <johnx> RST38h, what if I don't need the part I'd be paying more for?
Jan 11 09:09:12 <AstralSt> (no, not a 17" monster)
Jan 11 09:09:37 <RST38h> johnx: I do not believe you won't need a bigger screen, more comfortable keyboard, and more responsive CPU
Jan 11 09:09:55 <AstralSt> for mobile work, n810 is almost excellent
Jan 11 09:10:05 <johnx> RST38h, you haven't actually tried the hp mini keyboard, have you?
Jan 11 09:10:11 <RST38h> johnx: Even if you are a linux freak, the linux analog of "make world" is going to take much less time on a real computer
Jan 11 09:10:22 <AstralSt> n9xx with external foldable keyboard and screen would be even better
Jan 11 09:10:23 <johnx> RST38h, I use a binary distro :P
Jan 11 09:10:23 <wazd> RST38h: HP has 100% comfortable kb and pretty responsive CPU :)
Jan 11 09:10:38 <RST38h> johnx: No, but I know for sure that it is smaller i.e. less comfortable
Jan 11 09:10:54 <AstralSt> yeah, netbooks are a niche that doesn't exist really
Jan 11 09:11:01 <AstralSt> but gullible people still buy them
Jan 11 09:11:02 <AstralSt> ;P
Jan 11 09:11:03 <pupnik> netbooks are still space/weight saving if you are carrying a bag (for e.g. with books and stuff)
Jan 11 09:11:10 <RST38h> Astral: This niche is called "dirt cheap laptops"
Jan 11 09:11:11 <johnx> RST38h, so, I've used the keyboard, you haven't, and you're telling me it's less comfortable?
Jan 11 09:11:11 <AstralSt> meh
Jan 11 09:11:20 <RST38h> Astral: it exists all right
Jan 11 09:11:21 <pupnik> agree with RST38h
Jan 11 09:11:26 <AstralSt> RST38h: can't just buy an older one? :P
Jan 11 09:11:35 <AstralSt> instead of having an underpowered netbook?
Jan 11 09:11:46 <RST38h> Astral: Probably not, laptops do not live more than 2-3 years nowadays
Jan 11 09:11:56 <AstralSt> yes, they don't
Jan 11 09:11:59 <AstralSt> due to battery
Jan 11 09:12:00 <wazd> AstralSt: who told you it's underpowered?
Jan 11 09:12:11 <AstralSt> wazd: if it's a netbook, it certainly is
Jan 11 09:12:15 <RST38h> johnx: With keyboards, you can judge by physical size without trying
Jan 11 09:12:29 <RST38h> johnx: Given the same size, you would have to test them of course to know
Jan 11 09:12:29 <johnx> RST38h, O_o
Jan 11 09:12:30 <wazd> RST38h: actually you can't
Jan 11 09:12:41 <AstralSt> oh, yes you can
Jan 11 09:12:57 <wazd> RST38h: you can make 100% sized keyboard unusable
Jan 11 09:13:02 <RST38h> wazd: you can, as long as you keep in mind that size isn't the only criterion
Jan 11 09:13:03 <johnx> RST38h, I'm sorry to do this but I think the most correct expression would be "lolwut?"
Jan 11 09:13:15 <AstralSt> wazd: unless it's designed to be useless, no
Jan 11 09:13:25 <AstralSt> if it's a default design, then you can
Jan 11 09:13:34 <RST38h> johnx: Smaller keyboard BAD. Bigger keyboard GOOD. Understand? :)
Jan 11 09:13:36 <AstralSt> (or close enough to one)
Jan 11 09:13:49 <wazd> RST38h: wrong again
Jan 11 09:13:53 <AstralSt> RST38h: of course, unless it's too big
Jan 11 09:13:54 <aquatix> RST38h: except that there can be bad big keyboards and excellent small ones
Jan 11 09:13:55 <AstralSt> :)
Jan 11 09:14:06 <AstralSt> yeah, of standard design?
Jan 11 09:14:07 <wazd> RST38h: Optimus Maximus is very big keyboard
Jan 11 09:14:14 <AstralSt> ^^^^
Jan 11 09:14:16 <johnx> RST38h, I've tested it and it seems just fine for me. do you own some stock in Toshiba or something?
Jan 11 09:14:22 <wazd> RST38h: And it sucks like a vacum on typing
Jan 11 09:14:24 <AstralSt> we're talking about standard designs, not weird ones
Jan 11 09:14:26 <RST38h> aquatix: there can be. as a general rule though, bigger keyboard good.
Jan 11 09:14:33 <aquatix> RST38h: of course
Jan 11 09:14:43 <aquatix> as you have more room
Jan 11 09:14:47 <wazd> AstralSt: what is standart design?
Jan 11 09:15:01 <wazd> AstralSt: Mitsumi original?
Jan 11 09:15:05 <AstralSt> normal rectangular or almost-rectangular qwerty
Jan 11 09:15:08 <RST38h> wazd: I won't even discuss THAT to avoid Russian-specific politically incorrect humor.
Jan 11 09:15:10 <wazd> AstralSt: typewrigter?
Jan 11 09:15:16 <AstralSt> like, Chicony old Winkeyboard
Jan 11 09:15:29 <AstralSt> or that old IBM keyboards
Jan 11 09:15:34 <AstralSt> that's the standard design
Jan 11 09:15:39 <AstralSt> *those
Jan 11 09:15:46 <RST38h> johnx: I don't really, but the Porteges are subnotebook I know well
Jan 11 09:15:50 <AstralSt> forgot how they look, eh?
Jan 11 09:15:52 <wazd> Astral: what the heck is "rectangular qwerty"?)
Jan 11 09:15:52 <aquatix> mitsumi original comes close too i think
Jan 11 09:16:03 <RST38h> johnx: You can probably go with other brands as well, as long as general specs are close
Jan 11 09:16:07 <johnx> RST38h, WTF? The Portege starts at $1400. The HP I specced is $380
Jan 11 09:16:21 <AstralSt> wazd: non-broken non-curved qwerty keyboard
Jan 11 09:16:25 <RST38h> johnx: You get what you pay for.
Jan 11 09:16:29 <johnx> RST38h, I need this for an ssh session and an xterm.
Jan 11 09:16:38 <johnx> and a web browser, music player
Jan 11 09:16:46 <johnx> maybe some standard def video
Jan 11 09:16:46 <wazd> AstralSt: well, Microsoft Ergo Kb is way cooler than original :)
Jan 11 09:16:52 <RST38h> johnx: Why do you need to spend extra $380 for that? Don't you already have a computer?
Jan 11 09:16:56 <johnx> Why in the F would I pay $1000 extras?
Jan 11 09:16:57 <AstralSt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard-wireless-black.jpg - like this one
Jan 11 09:16:58 <aquatix> johnx: sounds like a netbook is great for the job
Jan 11 09:17:01 <wazd> AstralSt: every iser will tell you that :)
Jan 11 09:17:04 <AstralSt> except all the added keys
Jan 11 09:17:06 <AstralSt> wazd: yeah yeah
Jan 11 09:17:13 <johnx> RST38h, it's in a micro atx case. doesn't really fit in my lap huh?
Jan 11 09:17:17 <AstralSt> except most of these suck :>
Jan 11 09:17:17 <aquatix> johnx: my girlfriend has the samsung nc10; excellent 10" netbook with great keyboard
Jan 11 09:17:25 <aquatix> and great battery life too
Jan 11 09:17:28 <bef0rd> wazd, nice logo/wallpaper
Jan 11 09:17:38 <RST38h> johnx: Why not dump it and just buy a real laptop for all purposes?
Jan 11 09:17:39 <wazd> bef0rd: thanks)
Jan 11 09:17:51 <aquatix> wazd: url?
Jan 11 09:17:52 <johnx> RST38h, $1000! I've owned cars that cost less!
Jan 11 09:17:58 <aquatix> johnx: :)
Jan 11 09:18:03 <AstralSt> aquatix: well, so what's the best thing about that one?
Jan 11 09:18:07 <AstralSt> that it can run apps? :P
Jan 11 09:18:13 <RST38h> johnx: Ah you cheapskate =)
Jan 11 09:18:14 <AstralSt> definitely not the price
Jan 11 09:18:16 <wazd> http://s45.radikal.ru/i108/0901/ad/7d0a5e67d3db.jpg
Jan 11 09:18:24 <AstralSt> and it's not a netbook
Jan 11 09:18:27 <johnx> RST38h, it's called priorities
Jan 11 09:18:28 <AstralSt> just a subnotebook
Jan 11 09:18:29 <aquatix> AstralSt: eh?
Jan 11 09:18:35 <aquatix> nc10 is a netbook
Jan 11 09:18:44 <AstralSt> price, again?
Jan 11 09:18:49 <RST38h> johnx: Dunno, to me it is having more electronic junk in the house
Jan 11 09:18:51 <AstralSt> I have a real laptop that costs less
Jan 11 09:18:58 <mavhc> it's only a netbook if it has an ssd, hdd based ones don't count
Jan 11 09:19:00 <AstralSt> and it does its job very well
Jan 11 09:19:07 <aquatix> but does that one do 7 to 8 hours straight on battery?
Jan 11 09:19:12 <RST38h> johnx: I would rather spend that $1000 and have a single portable machine to use
Jan 11 09:19:12 <aquatix> and weigh 1.3kg?
Jan 11 09:19:19 * Jaffa still has a proper netBook upstairs :-)
Jan 11 09:19:21 <wazd> I don't get that argue :) What everybody tries to prove everyone?)
Jan 11 09:19:29 <AstralSt> aquatix: not, just 4h
Jan 11 09:19:29 <aquatix> wazd: not sure either :)
Jan 11 09:19:31 <RST38h> johnx: All of my computers have paid for themselves multiple times
Jan 11 09:19:33 <AstralSt> and 2x the weight
Jan 11 09:19:43 <mavhc> Jaffa: apparently psion want to sue people, who knew they still existed
Jan 11 09:19:43 <AstralSt> aquatix: for portability, my n810 is good
Jan 11 09:19:45 <aquatix> i was just saying that for johnx' needs, a netbook is just fine
Jan 11 09:19:48 <AstralSt> ;P
Jan 11 09:20:02 <RST38h> wazd: As always, that THEIRS is bigger/longer/harder
Jan 11 09:20:10 <aquatix> AstralSt: i have an n810 and a 13" subnotebook and that's fine for me too
Jan 11 09:20:21 * aquatix doesn't need a netbook
Jan 11 09:20:23 <AstralSt> why do you need a subnotebook if you have n810?
Jan 11 09:20:25 <wazd> RST38h: Ah, ok :)
Jan 11 09:20:29 <aquatix> but i was just saying that they have their place
Jan 11 09:20:31 <AstralSt> normal laptop is portable aplenty
Jan 11 09:20:35 <johnx> RST38h, I've owned plenty of computers. This isn't my first time around the block. I appreciate the advice I suppose, I just wonder why you're so insistent...
Jan 11 09:20:36 <AstralSt> ;)
Jan 11 09:20:42 <aquatix> AstralSt: what part of "my girlfriend" didn't you get?
Jan 11 09:20:47 <AstralSt> ah, right
Jan 11 09:20:49 <AstralSt> no logic
Jan 11 09:20:49 <RST38h> johnx: Not really insistent
Jan 11 09:20:50 <aquatix> (heh, all of it ;)
Jan 11 09:20:53 <AstralSt> forgot about that part
Jan 11 09:20:59 <RST38h> johnx: Just fail to understand the logic
Jan 11 09:21:11 <wazd> ok, why netbooks are bad?)
Jan 11 09:21:17 <RST38h> johnx: If I were a cheapskate, I wouldn't buy a second computer at all
Jan 11 09:21:29 <RST38h> johnx: If I weren't a cheapskate, I wouldn't buy a netbook
Jan 11 09:21:37 <Jaffa> mavhc: They still sell netBook (Pro) stuff - but to big industrial/OEM customers; hence all the /. wailing of "wah, they stopped selling stuff ages ago". I wonder who got Acorn's "netPad" trademark (I think Psion had a portable, keyboardless device called the netPad, too)
Jan 11 09:21:46 <wazd> they ave standart keyboards, 8  hours of wi-fi, descent screens and adequate CPU HP
Jan 11 09:21:50 <RST38h> johnx: So, any point of view in the middle is lost to me :)
Jan 11 09:21:57 <wazd> What's bad on them?)
Jan 11 09:22:03 <mavhc> netbooks are bad if you don't care about size because a full sized cheap laptop is the same price
Jan 11 09:22:03 <johnx> RST38h, $1000 represents a different amount of money to different people...
Jan 11 09:22:13 <Jaffa> RST38h: Perhaps other people have different requirements and priorities to you?
Jan 11 09:22:14 <wazd> they can't play crysis for sure
Jan 11 09:22:22 <aquatix> wazd: i think people mind the less-than-whoa-fast! processors
Jan 11 09:22:26 <aquatix> wazd: yeah :/
Jan 11 09:22:33 <aquatix> but that's not where they are intended for anyway
Jan 11 09:22:34 <mavhc> if your laptop can play crysis you can't carry it
Jan 11 09:22:43 <aquatix> my girlfriend couldn't be happier with her netbook
Jan 11 09:22:44 <RST38h> Jaffa: The thing is that what you said still does not explain why one would buy a netbook
Jan 11 09:23:05 <aquatix> RST38h: because it doesn't cause a hernia?
Jan 11 09:23:20 <RST38h> aquatix: I am sure it does! =)
Jan 11 09:23:26 <mavhc> you buy a netbook if you have a desktop and don't use a laptop much
Jan 11 09:23:33 <Vulcanis> does not cause hernia
Jan 11 09:23:43 <Vulcanis> causes cancer in california
Jan 11 09:23:45 <wazd> so I don't actually get why I have to pay 1400 bucks instead of 400 for totaly same functionality :)
Jan 11 09:23:49 <AstralSt> wazd: nice, but then, n810 has 5h of wifi and is more portable :) I can type about 70% as fast on it
Jan 11 09:23:58 <aquatix> Vulcanis: what doesn't? ;)
Jan 11 09:24:10 <RST38h> wazd: Not the same functionality - netbooks have smaller, lower quality LCDs, slower CPUs, smaller keyboards
Jan 11 09:24:13 <mavhc> wazd: you pay for the dvd drive, fast cpu, high res screen
Jan 11 09:24:17 <Vulcanis> aquatix: Nokia products
Jan 11 09:24:23 <aquatix> heh :)
Jan 11 09:24:27 <wazd> mavhc: I have 1280x720 screen
Jan 11 09:24:27 <Jaffa> RST38h: How about these two OTTOMH... 1) someone has a powerful desktop, but needs a nice, small, cheap machine for lightweight tasks when travelling; 2) someone has a bad back/neck, but still travels. can't afford an expensive lightweight laptop and doesn't need the oomph anyway
Jan 11 09:24:36 <RST38h> wazd: On the other hand, I hope netbooks wil help bringing laptop prices down ;)
Jan 11 09:24:39 <AstralSt> wazd: I can extend to 7h if using bluetooth for connectivity
Jan 11 09:24:41 <wazd> mavhc: Pretty high-res
Jan 11 09:24:46 <AstralSt> but, my cell phone will die sooner ;P
Jan 11 09:25:00 <RST38h> JaffaL I would go with a smartphone or a NIT for these usage cases
Jan 11 09:25:10 <mavhc> wazd: on which netbook?
Jan 11 09:25:11 <RST38h> Jaffa: In fact, I DO go with a NIT for them =)
Jan 11 09:25:18 <wazd> mavhc: HP 2133
Jan 11 09:25:38 <AstralSt> NIT even can be easily used for browsing (unexpected, eh?)
Jan 11 09:25:43 <AstralSt> unlike most smartphones
Jan 11 09:25:44 <wazd> mavhc: new 2140 has even higher res
Jan 11 09:25:44 <Jaffa> RST38h: Yes, *you* do. I find typing lots on the NIT tedious. And Nokia've hardly advertised them well.
Jan 11 09:26:05 <AstralSt> Jaffa: I guess because NITs aren't a "done" product yet
Jan 11 09:26:22 <Vulcanis> they advertized them at all?
Jan 11 09:26:22 <mavhc> pre netbook all small laptops were high end, they're just low end small laptops, with SSDs
Jan 11 09:26:22 <Jaffa> Netbooks also "do" the web better than NITs,have more variety, can be cheaper and are *known*
Jan 11 09:26:22 <RST38h> Jaffa: I don't type much on a NIT really, although typing is a bitch, even with an external keyboard
Jan 11 09:26:22 <AstralSt> I think they're trying to evolve them into next-gen smartphones
Jan 11 09:26:33 <aquatix> RST38h: eh, try typing on a paper/thesis in TeX for some hours on a NIT
Jan 11 09:26:37 <AstralSt> well, I do type a bit on my n810, and it's nice
Jan 11 09:26:42 <AstralSt> code, actually
Jan 11 09:26:43 <AstralSt> :)
Jan 11 09:26:45 <mavhc> NITs are smartphones without the phone
Jan 11 09:26:47 <wazd> sooo
Jan 11 09:26:49 <RST38h> aquatix: I have had a desktop for that
Jan 11 09:26:58 <wazd> What's bad on netbooks?)
Jan 11 09:26:59 <AstralSt> mavhc: yes, and n9xx will have that fixed
Jan 11 09:27:02 <aquatix> RST38h: not in the plain/train/park bench you don't
Jan 11 09:27:05 <RST38h> aquatix: And if I need to do it on the road, Portege R100 is only 1.25kg
Jan 11 09:27:05 <Jaffa> RST38h: Right, so if someone wnated to type, say, a few emails whilst on a train/plane; what's the best device category for them?
Jan 11 09:27:07 <wazd> Except the price ofcourse)
Jan 11 09:27:16 <aquatix> RST38h: and only $1000 more?
Jan 11 09:27:27 <RST38h> Jaffa: My E70 does email typing very very nicely
Jan 11 09:27:33 <aquatix> a netbook you about literally throw into your bga
Jan 11 09:27:34 <aquatix> *bag
Jan 11 09:27:39 <AstralSt> RST38h: oh, n810 does too
Jan 11 09:27:42 <RST38h> aquatix: I have no desktop. For me it is +$1000 -price of desktop
Jan 11 09:27:54 <mavhc> so $700
Jan 11 09:27:59 <AstralSt> I have a "mobile desktop" class of laptop
Jan 11 09:28:02 <RST38h> Astral: Actually, no. E70 is way better than any other mobile device at this ;)
Jan 11 09:28:04 <AstralSt> and n810
Jan 11 09:28:14 <Vulcanis> I have an ultraportable laptop
Jan 11 09:28:22 <AstralSt> Vulcanis: as in pocketable?
Jan 11 09:28:24 <wazd> AstralSt: ultraport is not DTR)
Jan 11 09:28:24 <AstralSt> :P
Jan 11 09:28:31 <RST38h> mavhc: Nope. A desktop will cost you around $500, no less. Add $300 for a monitor
Jan 11 09:28:32 * aquatix has an ultraportable too, and a lovely n810
Jan 11 09:28:37 <Vulcanis> AstralSt: About 3lb
Jan 11 09:28:37 <Jaffa> RST38h: Not everyone has an E70! Are you deliberately trolling now, or just saying that anyone who has a netbook (incl. johnx and wazd) haven't considered things properly?
Jan 11 09:28:40 <RST38h> mavhc: So for me it is +$200
Jan 11 09:28:50 <Vulcanis> but between my Thinkpad X60 and n800, I don't really need too much more
Jan 11 09:28:59 <AstralSt> Jaffa: obviously the latter
Jan 11 09:29:01 <mavhc> what's the price of an e70?
Jan 11 09:29:11 <AstralSt> mavhc: google is your friend, or nokia.com
Jan 11 09:29:13 <AstralSt> :P
Jan 11 09:29:18 <RST38h> Jaffa: First of all, I am ALWAYS deliberately trolling, in the definition you are using :)
Jan 11 09:29:20 <Vulcanis> I don't really see why everyone wants the netbooks
Jan 11 09:29:23 <aquatix> Jaffa: i think we should just accept that RST38h doesn't see the advantage a netbook can have for someone who doesn't already own a smartphone, NIT and desktop
Jan 11 09:29:38 <AstralSt> no need for a smartphone
Jan 11 09:29:42 <mavhc> Vulcanis: because they're cheap laptops
Jan 11 09:29:47 <bef0rd> the cool factor
Jan 11 09:29:47 <RST38h> Jaffa: Secondly, all I am trying to say is that netbooks fall into some category that I can't imagine a use for
Jan 11 09:29:53 <aquatix> Vulcanis: my gf uses it as her own computer, aside from her palmtop
Jan 11 09:29:57 <mavhc> people always want cheap things
Jan 11 09:30:08 <wazd> RST38h: notebook for poor slaves
Jan 11 09:30:10 <aquatix> Vulcanis: it's conveniently small, light and gets her stuff done
Jan 11 09:30:12 <Jaffa> RST38h: Yes, but you have to accept THAT OTHER PEOPLE CAN!
Jan 11 09:30:16 <RST38h> wazd: Maybe, yes
Jan 11 09:30:19 <johnx> RST38h, sometimes, there are products aimed at other people than you
Jan 11 09:30:21 <qwerty12> RST38h, you seem to insist on making everyone think they way you do.
Jan 11 09:30:23 <aquatix> Jaffa: indeed
Jan 11 09:30:26 <Vulcanis> mavhc: But they're crap! Its like people who  buy 400$ dells expecting them to last.   Sure, they're better built, but I doubt they will last
Jan 11 09:30:28 <qwerty12> s/they/the
Jan 11 09:30:29 <wazd> RST38h: so, whats the deal)
Jan 11 09:30:29 <mavhc> that's why they make more than 1 product
Jan 11 09:30:30 <AstralSt> Jaffa: actually, they'd be better with other hardware most of the time
Jan 11 09:30:38 <Vulcanis> I haven't seen anything but an eee in person, but it just doesn't feel... right.
Jan 11 09:30:39 <mavhc> Vulcanis: how are they crap?
Jan 11 09:30:39 * aquatix wanders off
Jan 11 09:30:49 <AstralSt> with a netbook, you can't run any performance-intensive stuff
Jan 11 09:30:52 <aquatix> Vulcanis: Eee's don't feel right here too
Jan 11 09:30:54 <Jaffa> ditto. Babies to sort
Jan 11 09:30:59 <Vulcanis> mavhc: I guess its more just the obsolescence thing.
Jan 11 09:31:00 <mavhc> they're less likely to break than a laptop, no HDD
Jan 11 09:31:10 <AstralSt> and vs a NIT, you gain weight, larger screen and keyboard
Jan 11 09:31:10 <aquatix> but an Acer Aspire One or Samsung NC10 are actually usable
Jan 11 09:31:14 <RST38h> Jaffa: Well, other people are trying to explain to me, but there are some logical problems with explanations
Jan 11 09:31:18 <johnx> Vudentz, true. the eee kinda sucks :) there are many better choices
Jan 11 09:31:22 <AstralSt> and some hd space
Jan 11 09:31:34 <aquatix> 160GB even in the NC10 ;)
Jan 11 09:31:36 <aquatix> anyways
Jan 11 09:31:39 <AstralSt> aquatix: and more expensive too? :P
Jan 11 09:31:44 <mavhc> it's not a netbook with an HDD
Jan 11 09:31:45 <aquatix> AstralSt: depends
Jan 11 09:31:46 <RST38h> Jaffa: it is like someone explaining the virtues of having a bicycle
Jan 11 09:31:57 <johnx> RST38h, I wasn't even talking to you about netbooks. O_o
Jan 11 09:32:03 <AstralSt> aquatix: NC10 has a list price or 500$
Jan 11 09:32:08 <RST38h> Jaffa: You know, healthy, 2-hour morning trips to work, etc
Jan 11 09:32:09 <aquatix> AstralSt: last time i looked, the Eee 10" was about the same
Jan 11 09:32:14 <aquatix> AstralSt: oh?
Jan 11 09:32:17 <wazd> random  flame comment\
Jan 11 09:32:19 <aquatix> was cheaper here
Jan 11 09:32:21 <wazd> ~flame
Jan 11 09:32:26 <AstralSt> hmm, maybe it got cheaper
Jan 11 09:32:28 <RST38h> Jaffa: And the only thing I can say is "Why not just buy a freaking car?" :)
Jan 11 09:32:28 <qwerty12> ~burn
Jan 11 09:32:33 <johnx> RST38h, no, it's like someone saying that a bicycle works for them and talking to someone else about biking to work: Not an invitation to tell them they're wrong
Jan 11 09:32:34 <aquatix> AstralSt: we got it for 380 EUR
Jan 11 09:32:39 <AstralSt> RST38h: because gas is expensive
Jan 11 09:32:49 <AstralSt> aquatix: so, for more than 500$, hehehe
Jan 11 09:32:50 <mavhc> and there's no parking
Jan 11 09:32:57 <AstralSt> or an equivalent
Jan 11 09:33:00 <aquatix> AstralSt: that's not comparable dammit ;)
Jan 11 09:33:01 <mavhc> and it's 1/10th the price
Jan 11 09:33:07 <RST38h> AStral: That argument has also been used (see scrollback buffer) :)
Jan 11 09:33:12 <wazd> Tell my one thing everybody)
Jan 11 09:33:22 <wazd> Why shoud I pay more for same stuff?
Jan 11 09:33:29 <aquatix> `same'?
Jan 11 09:33:31 <AstralSt> more? same?
Jan 11 09:33:36 <mavhc> because it's better in some way
Jan 11 09:33:36 <wazd> Yep
Jan 11 09:33:39 <aquatix> wazd: what are you comparing now?
Jan 11 09:33:42 <wazd> no its not for me
Jan 11 09:33:43 <RST38h> 'cause it is not the same
Jan 11 09:33:47 <mavhc> smaller, lighter, faster, more reliable
Jan 11 09:33:49 <AstralSt> for 500$, you can get a standard laptop of moderate power
Jan 11 09:34:00 <wazd> not smaller, not lighter, doing same stuff
Jan 11 09:34:12 <AstralSt> not smaller *enough* actually
Jan 11 09:34:16 <AstralSt> because you still need a bag
Jan 11 09:34:18 <wazd> I have aluminium case, does Portege?
Jan 11 09:34:36 <johnx> RST38h, I kinda wish you'd stop trolling sometimes :/
Jan 11 09:34:37 <mavhc> you don't need another bag, just put it in your main bag
Jan 11 09:34:46 <AstralSt> mavhc: oh yeah sure
Jan 11 09:34:50 <AstralSt> I don't carry a bag with me
Jan 11 09:34:55 <AstralSt> it looks bad etc.
Jan 11 09:35:02 <AstralSt> I win, eh? :P
Jan 11 09:35:05 <wazd> I'm caring my mini in my small standart "non-notebook" bag
Jan 11 09:35:07 <mavhc> wazd: it's 5 times faster, has a dvd drive, higher res screen, I assume
Jan 11 09:35:08 <wazd> So
Jan 11 09:35:20 <AstralSt> you mean, a suitcase?
Jan 11 09:35:21 <RST38h> johnx: Done (have to get back to work)
Jan 11 09:35:26 <wazd> mavhc: I dont need al that CPU HP
Jan 11 09:35:31 <AstralSt> devastating to joints
Jan 11 09:35:34 <wazd> mavhc: at ALL
Jan 11 09:35:34 <mavhc> wazd: so don't buy it
Jan 11 09:35:43 <mavhc> we'll stop forcing you to buy it, ok
Jan 11 09:35:47 <AstralSt> :P
Jan 11 09:36:06 <wazd> I'm so glad)
Jan 11 09:36:16 <mavhc> also don't buy that gaming desktop if you don't want to play games
Jan 11 09:36:25 <wazd> We suddenly have found a reasn to buy a netbook
Jan 11 09:36:44 <AstralSt> like what kind of reason?
Jan 11 09:36:53 <mavhc> you don't need more cpu power
Jan 11 09:36:56 <AstralSt> a standard laptop for text editing will be cheaper
Jan 11 09:36:58 <wazd> I wan't to have a cheap reliable laptop
Jan 11 09:37:03 * aquatix would rather buy a $400 netbook than a $400 laptop that weighs 2x as much and has some crappy celeron and only slightly bigger resolution and poorer battery life
Jan 11 09:37:06 <AstralSt> cheap != reliable
Jan 11 09:37:20 <aquatix> AstralSt: did you even try some?
Jan 11 09:37:22 <wazd> AstralSt: wrong
Jan 11 09:37:23 <AstralSt> esp. that netbooks are not reliable
Jan 11 09:37:24 <RST38h> unfortunately, yes
Jan 11 09:37:31 <mavhc> AstralSt: so we shouldn't buy the cheap laptop, because it's not reliable?
Jan 11 09:37:34 <AstralSt> yes, although not the newest offering
Jan 11 09:37:36 <RST38h> Although Samsung is a big step in that direction
Jan 11 09:37:38 <wazd> AstralSt: expensive != reliable
Jan 11 09:37:43 <mavhc> AstralSt: cite your source
Jan 11 09:37:44 <AstralSt> wazd: that's true too
Jan 11 09:37:51 <wazd> so whats the point
Jan 11 09:37:52 <mavhc> who's netbook is dead?
Jan 11 09:37:58 <AstralSt> mavhc: source? cite yours ;P
Jan 11 09:38:03 <RST38h> wazd: you know a difference between <-> and -> ?
Jan 11 09:38:07 <AstralSt> mavhc: sorry, had to fix a few
Jan 11 09:38:13 <mavhc> they have no HDD, hence more reliable
Jan 11 09:38:16 <AstralSt> as in hardware
Jan 11 09:38:28 <AstralSt> yes, as if hdds were unreliable
Jan 11 09:38:34 <AstralSt> the problem is not storage
Jan 11 09:38:36 <aquatix> mavhc: erm, we have one with 160GB hdd
Jan 11 09:38:41 <AstralSt> but cheap plastics
Jan 11 09:38:46 <aquatix> AstralSt: well
Jan 11 09:38:46 <wazd> I have 120Gb HDD
Jan 11 09:38:47 <mavhc> aquatix: as I said, if it has an HDD it's not a netbook
Jan 11 09:38:52 <wazd> Aluminium casing
Jan 11 09:38:53 <aquatix> mavhc: wrong
Jan 11 09:38:55 <RST38h> mavhc: Why?
Jan 11 09:39:00 <aquatix> sooo wrong
Jan 11 09:39:01 <AstralSt> wazd: what netbook?
Jan 11 09:39:02 <aquatix> anyway
Jan 11 09:39:06 <aquatix> i'm outta here
Jan 11 09:39:16 <aquatix> not wanting to do this on sunday morning
Jan 11 09:39:17 <wazd> AstrasSt: same as 5 mins ago obviously))
Jan 11 09:39:27 <wazd> AstralSt: HP 2133
Jan 11 09:39:27 <aquatix> before i even had coffee or food :)
Jan 11 09:39:32 <mavhc> because a netbook is something with no moving parts, except perhaps a fan, than you can throw around
Jan 11 09:39:41 <aquatix> mavhc: in your definition maybe
Jan 11 09:39:42 <RST38h> aquatix: But now you are no longer asleep
Jan 11 09:39:46 <pupnik> my 'netbook' has a hdd and a fan
Jan 11 09:39:54 <aquatix> RST38h: yeah, but greatly annoyed ;)
Jan 11 09:39:56 <AstralSt> wazd: hmm
Jan 11 09:40:04 <RST38h> mavhc: Netbook is a dirt-cheap laptop, that is all it is
Jan 11 09:40:06 <mavhc> aquatix: well there's got to be some real difference
Jan 11 09:40:15 <aquatix> mavhc: like, size and power?
Jan 11 09:40:15 <mavhc> RST38h: don't give it a new name then
Jan 11 09:40:17 <AstralSt> RST38h: dirt-cheap *small* laptop
Jan 11 09:40:18 <AstralSt> :)
Jan 11 09:40:21 <aquatix> AstralSt: indeed
Jan 11 09:40:22 <RST38h> For once, there is a clear definition (try that with MIPS or "smartphone")
Jan 11 09:40:35 <RST38h> Astral: Original Intel netbook is rather large BTW
Jan 11 09:40:42 <AstralSt> yes, or Asus
Jan 11 09:40:51 <AstralSt> but then, these are proto-netbooks ;P
Jan 11 09:40:55 <RST38h> mavhc: I did not give it a name, can't take it back :)
Jan 11 09:40:59 <mavhc> the problem with a laptop is the hdd, you shouldn't move it when it's on
Jan 11 09:41:00 <Vulcanis> [04:39:32] <mavhc> because a netbook is something with no moving parts, except perhaps a fan, than you can throw around -- perhaps Nerf should make one
Jan 11 09:41:07 <AstralSt> mavhc: wrong
Jan 11 09:41:07 <aquatix> mavhc: bullocks
Jan 11 09:41:13 <AstralSt> laptop hdds are very resilient
Jan 11 09:41:26 * aquatix has had laptops for years and even dropped one while it was powered on
Jan 11 09:41:26 <mavhc> except the pile of 20 dead ones I have here
Jan 11 09:41:29 <Vulcanis> esp. on a thinkpad ^.^
Jan 11 09:41:31 <aquatix> never had a problem
Jan 11 09:41:32 <wazd> HP Mini even have HDD defense
Jan 11 09:41:38 <AstralSt> mavhc: buying cheap hardware again?
Jan 11 09:41:42 <aquatix> AstralSt: :)
Jan 11 09:41:46 <wazd> HP like throw protection
Jan 11 09:41:46 <mavhc> AstralSt: of course
Jan 11 09:41:58 <AstralSt> whatever, the hd itself has a G-sensor
Jan 11 09:41:59 <johnx> since I already did it before I stopped caring: sizeeasy.com comparison of an HP Mini 1000 vs a Portege A600: http://tinyurl.com/84hm7e
Jan 11 09:42:01 * aquatix now really wanders off to some food and coffee
Jan 11 09:42:03 <AstralSt> no need for an additional one
Jan 11 09:42:28 <aquatix> johnx: ha, nice
Jan 11 09:42:48 <wazd> is it sunday today?!
Jan 11 09:42:57 <Vulcanis> its friday
Jan 11 09:42:57 <aquatix> here it is
Jan 11 09:43:05 <Vulcanis> so I can not go to school tomorrow, because it will then be saturday
Jan 11 09:43:06 <AstralSt> Vulcanis: free, but sunday
Jan 11 09:43:15 <aquatix> Vulcanis: :)
Jan 11 09:43:22 <aquatix> wish i could say the same of my work
Jan 11 09:43:43 <Vulcanis> sleep problems don't help things.  Nor do midterms.
Jan 11 09:43:51 <aquatix> ouch
Jan 11 09:44:03 <AstralSt> fortunately, I'm free of sleep problems
Jan 11 09:44:18 <Vulcanis> Yeah, be happy.
Jan 11 09:44:20 <RST38h> johnx: Well, it is expected (especially with a larger A600). But I really like that pack of playing cards form factor! :)
Jan 11 09:44:23 <AstralSt> but then, having to finish 4 projects is not nice
Jan 11 09:44:46 <aquatix> AstralSt: same here :/
Jan 11 09:44:46 <Vulcanis> johnx: Where can I buy one of these "Pack of playing cards", and what are the specs?
Jan 11 09:44:50 <johnx> RST38h, yeah, but try typing on that thing. no feedback whatsoever! :P
Jan 11 09:44:53 * aquatix gets that coffee and food
Jan 11 09:44:58 <aquatix> Vulcanis: supermarket
Jan 11 09:45:04 <aquatix> Vulcanis: 53 non-moving parts
Jan 11 09:45:08 <pupnik> what is the other webkit browser for tablets called?  not "tear"
Jan 11 09:45:09 <Vulcanis> nuuh
Jan 11 09:45:10 <x29a> global whining hour about who has the hardest life?
Jan 11 09:45:11 <aquatix> solid state++
Jan 11 09:45:15 <qwerty12> pupnik, webkit-eal
Jan 11 09:45:15 <bef0rd> midori?
Jan 11 09:45:20 <pupnik> and btw "tear" is a terrible name for googling.
Jan 11 09:45:21 <Vulcanis> 55 if you count jokers and the crappy rules card, aqua
Jan 11 09:45:22 <mavhc> just plug your HUD glasses and finger keyboard and mouse into the playcard sized computer, done
Jan 11 09:45:27 <AstralSt> aquatix: obviosuly, not counting the exams
Jan 11 09:45:30 <qwerty12> pupnik, http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=252016
Jan 11 09:45:31 <x29a> picking my nose and follow irc conversations, that aint easy
Jan 11 09:45:33 <johnx> pupnik, http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25752&page=27
Jan 11 09:45:41 <pupnik> thanks qwerty12, johnx
Jan 11 09:45:46 <Vulcanis> [04:45:22] <mavhc> just plug your HUD glasses and finger keyboard and mouse into the playcard sized computer, done-- but then we get into 'decks' from Neuromancer
Jan 11 09:45:47 <aquatix> Vulcanis: details ;)
Jan 11 09:45:48 <qwerty12> np
Jan 11 09:45:50 <AstralSt> one project to wrap up is the hwr, but don't expect a release just yet
Jan 11 09:45:50 <RST38h> johnx: Separate, wrist mounted BT keyboard!
Jan 11 09:46:03 <RST38h> johnx: Actually, I want it as part of my jacket :)
Jan 11 09:46:11 <aquatix> Neuromancer \o/
Jan 11 09:46:12 <pupnik> i'd like keyboard pants
Jan 11 09:46:19 <pupnik> on the top of the thigh
Jan 11 09:46:19 <johnx> RST38h, d00d. those playing card things don't even have hte bluet00thz!
Jan 11 09:46:19 <AstralSt> not until I manage to get it to read continuous handwriting
Jan 11 09:46:23 <aquatix> pupnik: so you can fondle legally?
Jan 11 09:46:31 <aquatix> in public?
Jan 11 09:46:36 <pupnik> it's just a natural resting place for hands.
Jan 11 09:46:37 <AstralSt> mwhahaha
Jan 11 09:46:37 <RST38h> pupnik: Would you prefer the keys on the front or...mmhmmm...on the BACK? =)
Jan 11 09:46:48 <AstralSt> pupnik: for that reason, it's pointless
Jan 11 09:46:51 <pupnik> heh, near the knee
Jan 11 09:46:52 <johnx> pupnik, just for you: http://gizmodo.com/382570/bring-out-your-inner-tool-with-peripherals-pants
Jan 11 09:46:56 <RST38h> johnx: Care to test that with your fingers? ;)
Jan 11 09:46:59 <AstralSt> where do you put your hands when you don't want to type?
Jan 11 09:47:09 <pupnik> i'm always typing
Jan 11 09:47:14 <aquatix> pupnik: knee? so that will only work when you are sitting?
Jan 11 09:47:17 <AstralSt> hmm
Jan 11 09:47:29 <aquatix> pupnik: or do you have really long arms? :)
Jan 11 09:47:46 <aquatix> johnx: ah!
Jan 11 09:47:46 <mavhc> you don't need a real keyboard, just finger position detectors, for your air kb
Jan 11 09:47:53 <pupnik> awesome johnx... but i was thinking of a chording model
Jan 11 09:47:56 <aquatix> mavhc: yeah, hologrammed in the air
Jan 11 09:47:57 <pupnik> still awesome tho
Jan 11 09:48:03 <RST38h> mavhc <-- essentially correct
Jan 11 09:48:21 <aquatix> except that a hologram doesn't provide tactile feedbak
Jan 11 09:48:23 <aquatix> +c
Jan 11 09:48:26 <RST38h> Like that demo Nokia (?) did with someone typing on a bare desk while the smartphone camera tracked his movements
Jan 11 09:48:30 <AstralSt> mavhc: it doesn't work well
Jan 11 09:48:40 <aquatix> RST38h: or that laser keyboard
Jan 11 09:48:41 <mavhc> it? I just imagined it
Jan 11 09:48:54 <RST38h> aquatix: More cumbersome, needs extra battery
Jan 11 09:48:56 <AstralSt> RST38h: too much AI in that ;P
Jan 11 09:49:08 <RST38h> Astral: naaah, just some image processing
Jan 11 09:49:10 <aquatix> RST38h: can be build into your device
Jan 11 09:49:12 <RST38h> There is more AI in Emacs
Jan 11 09:49:13 <AstralSt> I tried to have that workign
Jan 11 09:49:19 <aquatix> RST38h: but still, doesn't provide tactile feedback
Jan 11 09:49:35 <RST38h> aquatix: type on a piece of bubble wrap! :)
Jan 11 09:49:37 <johnx> hmm, need some augmented reality goggles to let you see the keyboard maybe :)
Jan 11 09:49:42 <AstralSt> RST38h: really? I tried to do that with standard motion detection algorithms
Jan 11 09:49:47 <aquatix> RST38h: with every bubble a key?
Jan 11 09:49:50 <RST38h> johnx: [drugs]
Jan 11 09:49:54 <AstralSt> it needed a load of CPU but didn't work so well
Jan 11 09:49:56 <RST38h> aquatix: yea
Jan 11 09:49:58 <aquatix> better use that roll-up-able keyboard i have lieing here
Jan 11 09:50:09 <aquatix> even full-sized
Jan 11 09:50:13 <AstralSt> sometimes misread keys
Jan 11 09:50:23 <aquatix> brb
Jan 11 09:50:34 <RST38h> Astral: IANAGG, but you probably want to use probabilistic analysis with Markov chains
Jan 11 09:50:35 <AstralSt> aquatix: link?
Jan 11 09:50:41 <mavhc> add force feedback to your glove
Jan 11 09:50:45 <AstralSt> RST38h: did I mention AI?
Jan 11 09:50:46 <AstralSt> ;P
Jan 11 09:50:54 <AstralSt> except it doesn't work too well either
Jan 11 09:50:58 <AstralSt> much like T9
Jan 11 09:51:00 <AstralSt> ;P
Jan 11 09:51:02 <RST38h> Astral: Probabilistic stuff isn't really AI
Jan 11 09:51:07 <AstralSt> oh, it is
Jan 11 09:51:13 <AstralSt> esp. markov chains
Jan 11 09:51:28 <AstralSt> still, predictive text is *old*
Jan 11 09:51:33 <RST38h> Well...maybe in the wide sense of that term
Jan 11 09:51:40 <AstralSt> I could fix the problems with it
Jan 11 09:51:52 <AstralSt> but then, that introduces new problems :P
Jan 11 09:51:53 <RST38h> It is not the traditional stuff though (logic, planning, etc)
Jan 11 09:52:00 <AstralSt> it is
Jan 11 09:52:07 <AstralSt> it's used for that in some games even
Jan 11 09:52:16 <RST38h> Game AI != CS AI
Jan 11 09:52:19 <AstralSt> (as part of an expert system)
Jan 11 09:52:26 <AstralSt> oh really?
Jan 11 09:52:31 <mavhc> augmented reality works today
Jan 11 09:52:43 <RST38h> Traditional CS AI is such a narrow field, unfortunately
Jan 11 09:52:52 <AstralSt> RST38h: tell me again, is pattern recognition not CS AI?
Jan 11 09:53:06 <AstralSt> ;P
Jan 11 09:53:44 <AstralSt> all AI is probabilistic anyway :)
Jan 11 09:53:55 <mavhc> once you get it working they remove it from the AI field and give it its own field
Jan 11 09:54:01 <RST38h> Astral: hasn't been since that Marvin Minsky guy had his proof of a perceptron not able to do a XOR
Jan 11 09:54:04 <johnx> mavhc, yeah, looking forward to seeing more of it in the next couple years :)
Jan 11 09:54:06 <mavhc> AI is just all the stuff that doesn't quite work yet
Jan 11 09:54:06 <AstralSt> (excluding hard data mining and expert systems, which are dead field already ;P )
Jan 11 09:54:17 <wazd> Long ago I was translating a text bout retinal projector
Jan 11 09:54:28 <AstralSt> RST38h: perceptron is one special kind of pattern recognition
Jan 11 09:54:35 <wazd> That's the future of agumented reality
Jan 11 09:54:44 <RST38h> Astral: Practically, it is AI of course. It is just that mainstream CS AI guys abandoned this stuff long time ago and only recently returnned to it
Jan 11 09:55:01 <AstralSt> but then, markov chaining is not a simple perceptron
Jan 11 09:55:02 <RST38h> Astral: Exactly, in fact you can do a XOR, just add an extra layer
Jan 11 09:55:02 <AstralSt> :)
Jan 11 09:55:30 <AstralSt> still, most fun problems are linearly separable
Jan 11 09:55:33 <AstralSt> no need for XOR ;P
Jan 11 09:56:32 <mavhc> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6NKT6eUGJDE is one AR demo I saw recently
Jan 11 09:56:34 <AstralSt> see, the trick with this motion detector is the amount of noise present
Jan 11 09:56:39 <AstralSt> in movement of fingers
Jan 11 09:57:28 <AstralSt> thus, they had to go back to predictive text to reduce error rate
Jan 11 09:57:32 <AstralSt> means - failure
Jan 11 09:57:54 <RST38h> mavhc: green screen tech
Jan 11 09:58:18 <RST38h> mavhc: Has been used for years to flip through ads shown at hockey/soccer matches
Jan 11 09:58:53 <RST38h> It is actually pretty cool
Jan 11 09:59:02 <AstralSt> nice new name though, eh?
Jan 11 09:59:11 <johnx> what I'm waiting for is an honest to god HUD with some basic ability to add info about what I'm seeing
Jan 11 09:59:30 <AstralSt> johnx: "info about what I'm seeing" = hard AI
Jan 11 09:59:37 <AstralSt> HUD is fairly simple
Jan 11 09:59:38 <RST38h> johnx: What? Ability to target and shoot explosive projectiles isn't at the top of your list?
Jan 11 10:00:02 <mavhc> johnx: there's smartphone demos that do that now
Jan 11 10:00:17 <johnx> AstralSt, face recognition?
Jan 11 10:00:27 <johnx> RST38h, maybe our respective country's cultures are wearing off on us? :P
Jan 11 10:00:41 <johnx> mavhc, but not quite "heads up" yet :)
Jan 11 10:00:43 <AstralSt> johnx: face recognition is simple enough, with low enough error rate
Jan 11 10:00:52 <AstralSt> like, 0.05%
Jan 11 10:01:13 <mavhc> for a subset of people
Jan 11 10:01:13 <AstralSt> of course, that's bad enough to not warrant using it for any security purpose
Jan 11 10:01:19 <AstralSt> but governments aren't listening
Jan 11 10:01:33 <mavhc> they are listening, just to people selling the tech
Jan 11 10:01:41 <johnx> AstralSt, exactly. that kind of stuff. and info on buildings, directions overlayed,
Jan 11 10:01:42 <AstralSt> obviously ;P
Jan 11 10:01:44 <RST38h> johnx: Don't think so, this stuff is pretty universal AFAIK
Jan 11 10:01:56 <AstralSt> buildings... hmmm, GPS + vector map?
Jan 11 10:02:07 <AstralSt> but you'd need a compass too
Jan 11 10:02:14 <johnx> RST38h, it's funny, but the only people I feel like shooting sometimes are on the internet...
Jan 11 10:02:24 <AstralSt> to get more sure direction data (GPS is notoriously bad at that at low speed)
Jan 11 10:02:26 <RST38h> johnx: and I believe you have been a systadmin too, so you should know the feeling
Jan 11 10:02:38 <johnx> RST38h, I was lucky. I had good users :)
Jan 11 10:02:44 <RST38h> johnx: See? There *are* such people!
Jan 11 10:02:53 <mavhc> http://www.videosift.com/video/Augmented-Reality-Wikitude-App-for-Android-Google-Phone
Jan 11 10:03:06 <johnx> RST38h, now retail computer sales and repair...that's another story
Jan 11 10:03:22 <AstralSt> johnx: the problem is - do you want to wear some kind of glasses?
Jan 11 10:03:39 <johnx> AstralSt, I already where glasses :)
Jan 11 10:03:39 <mavhc> already do
Jan 11 10:03:43 <AstralSt> OLEDs could be used to solve this problem "transparently"
Jan 11 10:03:55 <AstralSt> laser projection... maybe
Jan 11 10:03:58 <mavhc> g1 has a compass, so maybe it's using that
Jan 11 10:04:13 <mavhc> glasses will do for the next 10 years, then lasers
Jan 11 10:04:17 <johnx> mavhc, yup, compass+gps+accelerometer(?)
Jan 11 10:04:24 <mavhc> then just plug straight into my brain
Jan 11 10:04:26 <AstralSt> yes, these
Jan 11 10:04:36 <AstralSt> plus some additional motion detection from camera?
Jan 11 10:04:50 <AstralSt> (you need that for face recognition anyway)
Jan 11 10:04:50 <johnx> yeah, that wikitude app looks pretty neat. it's screaming for faster hardware though, and maybe a little more polish
Jan 11 10:05:05 <aquatix> mavhc: i rather keep it seperated from my brains
Jan 11 10:05:07 <AstralSt> the problem is hinting at what is a face
Jan 11 10:05:07 <mavhc> then before I die find a way to copy my brain to a computer so I can live forever on the internet
Jan 11 10:05:12 <AstralSt> and controlling the HUD
Jan 11 10:05:22 <AstralSt> johnx: do you want to carry a keyboard with you? :P
Jan 11 10:05:25 <mavhc> AstralSt: did you see Horizon's Where's My Robot?
Jan 11 10:05:32 <johnx> AstralSt, why would I need one?
Jan 11 10:05:48 <AstralSt> johnx: to say to the hud "face detection"
Jan 11 10:06:05 <AstralSt> it would misdetect otherwise
Jan 11 10:06:08 <AstralSt> a lot
Jan 11 10:06:24 <johnx> Cheap point+shoot cameras have been doing facial recognition quite well for years
Jan 11 10:06:34 <AstralSt> from clean pics
Jan 11 10:06:35 <mavhc> finding faces is easy
Jan 11 10:06:39 <johnx> I mean recognizing that something is a face at least
Jan 11 10:06:41 <AstralSt> not from real life movement and such
Jan 11 10:06:47 <AstralSt> yes yes
Jan 11 10:06:55 <mavhc> if they're looking straight at you
Jan 11 10:07:03 <AstralSt> exactly
Jan 11 10:07:05 <RST38h> cheap p&s has got OTHER problems with real life movement :)
Jan 11 10:07:06 <johnx> AstralSt, I'm fine with it going away when I'm moving or whatever. I rarely need it then
Jan 11 10:07:35 <AstralSt> johnx: then, a simple key to engage detection would be ok, right? :P
Jan 11 10:07:42 <AstralSt> or some other way of signalling it
Jan 11 10:07:47 <aquatix> mavhc: interesting demo
Jan 11 10:08:31 <johnx> AstralSt, eh, or if the software has a low confidence factor it won't show me the info, if it has a high confidence factor that it recognized a face, then it should show it
Jan 11 10:08:44 <johnx> this also, has been in p+s cams for a while...
Jan 11 10:08:52 <AstralSt> it *will* fail in funny ways a lot :)
Jan 11 10:08:59 <AstralSt> like, seeing a face on a building
Jan 11 10:09:03 <AstralSt> detecting faces in ads
Jan 11 10:09:04 <AstralSt> etc.
Jan 11 10:09:12 <AstralSt> a lot of info you don't want
Jan 11 10:09:39 <AstralSt> unless you augument it with some nice AI for DWIM
Jan 11 10:09:40 <johnx> AstralSt, that's the kind of stuff I want to find out :) what works, what doesn't
Jan 11 10:10:17 <johnx> maybe a glove would be ok for input, or something that sits on my wrist and watches my tendons
Jan 11 10:10:45 <AstralSt> yeah, like a chord keyboard :>
Jan 11 10:11:10 <johnx> except something that doesn't completely occupy a whole hand all the freaking time :)
Jan 11 10:11:14 <AstralSt> I remember a design like that
Jan 11 10:11:22 <AstralSt> no need for that if you mount it on a glove
Jan 11 10:11:42 <johnx> are you talking about something like a frogpad (is that it?)
Jan 11 10:12:18 <AstralSt> nah, frogpad is a standard small keyboard...
Jan 11 10:12:18 <AstralSt> although chorded
Jan 11 10:12:19 <AstralSt> I'm talking that on a glove :P
Jan 11 10:12:49 <mavhc> google street view's face detection to blur faces blurs horse faces too
Jan 11 10:13:03 <johnx> mavhc, that's intentional :D
Jan 11 10:13:08 <aquatix> mavhc: rightly so
Jan 11 10:13:17 <aquatix> you don't want to be seen with the wrong horse
Jan 11 10:13:28 <mavhc> horse privacy lobby is powerful
Jan 11 10:13:30 <johnx> doesn't blur people peeing on the street though
Jan 11 10:13:36 <AstralSt> haha
Jan 11 10:13:40 <aquatix> johnx: it blurred her face though ;)
Jan 11 10:14:10 <AstralSt> johnx: http://wearables.blu.org/keyglove.html ;)
Jan 11 10:14:14 <johnx> so is it blurring peoples' faces in all regions now?
Jan 11 10:14:15 <mavhc> when I saw the streetview car in nottingham I followed it around so I can be in lots of the photos
Jan 11 10:14:18 <AstralSt> can be done better
Jan 11 10:14:20 <AstralSt> e.g. analog
Jan 11 10:14:49 <johnx> I'm just not sure if trying to map qwerty onto a glove like that is the right idea
Jan 11 10:14:52 <AstralSt> or with a standard nice 3D glove
Jan 11 10:14:55 <AstralSt> (which is expensive)
Jan 11 10:15:04 <AstralSt> I said chorded, no need for qwerty
Jan 11 10:15:15 <AstralSt> it could launch functions directly
Jan 11 10:15:26 <johnx> or switch to T9
Jan 11 10:15:41 <AstralSt> predictive text strikes again! ;P
Jan 11 10:15:42 <johnx> yeah, I guess that's just a keymap and in input method on the software side
Jan 11 10:15:49 <AstralSt> exactly
Jan 11 10:16:13 <AstralSt> T9 is underpowered really
Jan 11 10:16:28 * aquatix likes qwerty better on a phone already
Jan 11 10:16:32 <AstralSt> can be improved easily, but still, that doesn't work around the patent
Jan 11 10:16:37 <AstralSt> meh
Jan 11 10:16:47 <johnx> gah, forgot about the patent
Jan 11 10:16:49 <aquatix> maybe some dvorak-like layout for the glove
Jan 11 10:16:57 <johnx> or T10 :)
Jan 11 10:17:01 <aquatix> lol
Jan 11 10:17:20 <AstralSt> we need more analog keyboards
Jan 11 10:17:39 <AstralSt> who needs a binary input, when we can use all of the hand movements?
Jan 11 10:17:42 <AstralSt> magic, anyone?
Jan 11 10:18:01 <AstralSt> give "gestures" a new meaning
Jan 11 10:18:13 <AstralSt> pity those 3D gloves are so expensive
Jan 11 10:18:46 <johnx> whole new ways for people to develop carpal tunnel syndrome :)
Jan 11 10:18:49 <aquatix> AstralSt: maybe we can do something with cheap motion sensors
Jan 11 10:18:52 <aquatix> johnx: :)
Jan 11 10:19:20 <AstralSt> aquatix: optical? sorry, tried it
Jan 11 10:19:23 <AstralSt> johnx: rather, avoid
Jan 11 10:19:28 <AstralSt> because of varying movement
Jan 11 10:19:29 <aquatix> AstralSt: no
Jan 11 10:19:38 <aquatix> the ones you have in phones nowadays
Jan 11 10:19:50 <AstralSt> those are accelerometers
Jan 11 10:19:57 <AstralSt> good 3D gloves use them
Jan 11 10:19:57 <aquatix> yeah, just wanted to say so
Jan 11 10:20:04 <aquatix> yeah
Jan 11 10:20:06 <johnx> dunno, that demo of the keyglove looked like a recipe for some kind of repetitive stress injury O_o
Jan 11 10:20:21 <AstralSt> johnx: it's more of a joke :)
Jan 11 10:20:28 <johnx> hey Stslaptop
Jan 11 10:20:30 <Stskeeps> morning
Jan 11 10:20:34 <johnx> hmm, accelerometers aren't that expensive
Jan 11 10:20:42 <aquatix> johnx: indeed
Jan 11 10:20:47 <aquatix> and you don't need that many
Jan 11 10:20:55 <AstralSt> http://www-bsac.eecs.berkeley.edu/archive/users/hollar-seth/fingeracc/fingeracc.html
Jan 11 10:20:59 <AstralSt> aquatix: ^
Jan 11 10:21:02 <aquatix> but you might want to keep the position of your fingers and such into account
Jan 11 10:21:13 <aquatix> AstralSt: 404?
Jan 11 10:21:42 <AstralSt> google then :)
Jan 11 10:22:25 <AstralSt> anyway, good 3D glove will have tension sensors, flex sensors and accelerometers
Jan 11 10:22:46 <aquatix> do those give feedback too?
Jan 11 10:22:55 <Stskeeps> johnx: i wonder if composite is broken in hildon-desktop
Jan 11 10:22:55 <aquatix> by resisting a bit and such?
Jan 11 10:23:14 <AstralSt> no
Jan 11 10:23:16 <johnx> Stskeeps, are you sure we have it in our xorg driver?
Jan 11 10:23:19 * johnx boots mer
Jan 11 10:23:26 <AstralSt> you could have some vibrators though
Jan 11 10:23:33 <aquatix> AstralSt: yeah, thought about that
Jan 11 10:23:33 <AstralSt> uhm, shakers
Jan 11 10:23:42 <aquatix> would be sufficient i think
Jan 11 10:23:48 <AstralSt> still, this becomes expensive micromanufacturing
Jan 11 10:23:52 <aquatix> as you only need feedback
Jan 11 10:23:54 <aquatix> yep
Jan 11 10:23:57 <Stskeeps> johnx: do me a favour and try to only upgrade libhildondesktop libhildonwm0 and hildon-desktop
Jan 11 10:24:07 <wazd> hey Sts)
Jan 11 10:24:14 <johnx> alright, will in a minute
Jan 11 10:24:22 <Stskeeps> it stopped working completely in my install so :P
Jan 11 10:24:28 <wazd> I've done what you've requested with logo
Jan 11 10:24:33 <johnx> Stskeeps, dependency problems?
Jan 11 10:24:37 <Stskeeps> wazd: can i see? :)
Jan 11 10:24:42 <Stskeeps> johnx: not sure, just breaks at boot
Jan 11 10:24:44 <wazd> no)
Jan 11 10:24:51 <wazd> :D
Jan 11 10:24:52 <wazd> http://s45.radikal.ru/i108/0901/ad/7d0a5e67d3db.jpg
Jan 11 10:25:16 <Stskeeps> hehe, looks cool
Jan 11 10:25:18 <RST38h> moo Srs
Jan 11 10:25:19 <RST38h> Sts
Jan 11 10:26:10 <Stskeeps> johnx: i found out why other themes made by theme maker doesnt work in mer
Jan 11 10:26:15 <Stskeeps> johnx: fallback icon theme
Jan 11 10:26:41 <johnx> ah, right. ours has a different name, huh?
Jan 11 10:27:09 <Stskeeps> yeah, 'hildon'
Jan 11 10:27:22 <Stskeeps> but i've uploaded titan to the repo with changed wallpaper now too
Jan 11 10:27:44 <Stskeeps> and began initial stuff with theme stuff in hildon-desktop-env (dont upgrade yet)
Jan 11 10:28:13 <johnx> ah, Nokia's theme app is closed, right?
Jan 11 10:28:36 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, hildon-desktop's license is good obviously?
Jan 11 10:28:38 <Stskeeps> i bet we can prod kontorri
Jan 11 10:28:48 <johnx> are theme changes done through d-bus?
Jan 11 10:28:53 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: hmm?
Jan 11 10:29:31 <Stskeeps> johnx: well look at /etc/osso-af-init/osso-gtk.defs and matchbox.defs
Jan 11 10:29:33 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, http://pastebin.com/d47ace9b1 - looking at that, installing the locale package to hildon-desktop seems to be good...
Jan 11 10:29:35 <Stskeeps> think that's where it mostly comes from
Jan 11 10:30:03 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: i thought we had maemo-af-desktop-l10n already
Jan 11 10:31:01 <qwerty12> Ah, yes, we do. I was under the impresssion that we don't >.<. Have any plans on uploading it if you haven't done so? home_ap_home_view looks ugly.
Jan 11 10:31:24 <Stskeeps> well the issue is that the .po file is not there in fremantle hildon desktop
Jan 11 10:31:30 <Stskeeps> it worked in non fremantle hildon desktop
Jan 11 10:32:04 <qwerty12> I'll adapt it, I don't like using hildon-desktop without proper names.
Jan 11 10:32:15 <Stskeeps> alright
Jan 11 10:34:47 <Stskeeps> johnx: symptom i encounted was hildon-desktop crashing, but i was confused by the fact it did the same in Xomap :P
Jan 11 10:35:02 <johnx> how did it crash?
Jan 11 10:35:21 <Stskeeps> segfault
Jan 11 10:36:03 <johnx> will install in a minute
Jan 11 10:36:08 <Stskeeps> k
Jan 11 10:36:20 <Stskeeps> i'll catch up on iTT :P
Jan 11 10:41:45 <Stskeeps> http://www.beefretail.org/deImagesbr/BeefRawCut/Beef_Cut_Chart/Beef_Cut_Chart.jpg <- I so want this poster
Jan 11 10:42:14 <Meiz_n810> Stskeeps: do you think Xomap would be better?
Jan 11 10:42:40 <Meiz_n810> thann Xorg in mer
Jan 11 10:42:51 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: yes/no, but i knew composite worked there :P
Jan 11 10:42:55 <aquatix> Stskeeps: *grin* @ poster
Jan 11 10:43:32 <Meiz_n810> Stskeeps: how much faster Xomap is?
Jan 11 10:43:40 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: well they have manual updates, we don't
Jan 11 10:43:44 <Stskeeps> that pretty much wins the rac
Jan 11 10:43:44 <Stskeeps> e
Jan 11 10:43:45 <Stskeeps> :P
Jan 11 10:44:05 <Meiz_n810> ok
Jan 11 10:44:33 * Meiz_n810 is re-installing Mer
Jan 11 10:44:57 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: mm, be aware some pieces are broken atm, so if you do it through imager, i cant promise it works
Jan 11 10:45:08 * AstralSt would love to install Mer, but has to wrap up hwr
Jan 11 10:45:10 <AstralSt> :P
Jan 11 10:45:11 <Meiz_n810> okay
Jan 11 10:45:26 <AstralSt> Stskeeps: what's broken, btw?
Jan 11 10:45:42 <Stskeeps> AstralSt: think i compiled hildon desktop for the first time with composite, and through scratchbox
Jan 11 10:46:11 <Stskeeps> and something seems to have gone awry
Jan 11 10:46:11 <Stskeeps> (all other apps work fine)
Jan 11 10:46:16 <Stskeeps> testing that scenario right now
Jan 11 10:46:58 <AstralSt> hmm, anyway... need to port Gentoo first
Jan 11 10:47:07 <Meiz_n810> i want to make a theme, but theme maker just does't work :(
Jan 11 10:47:14 <AstralSt> write a bunch of n8x0 specific ebuilds
Jan 11 10:47:33 <AstralSt> Stskeeps: do I have to grab the original gpsdriver, or is there some replacement?
Jan 11 10:47:33 <Stskeeps> AstralSt: slon actually succeeded in EABI gentoo now
Jan 11 10:47:39 <AstralSt> esp. OSS replacement
Jan 11 10:47:42 <Meiz_n810> konttori: ping?
Jan 11 10:47:52 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: work on where?
Jan 11 10:48:01 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, may I suggest that you replace utelnetd with openssh? or if you want to stay with the telnet route, add an ftp server then please
Jan 11 10:48:17 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: utelnetd in a rescue mode? :P
Jan 11 10:48:18 <AstralSt> dropbear? :P
Jan 11 10:48:20 <Meiz_n810> Stskeeps: it stays on 1% :(
Jan 11 10:48:25 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: hm :P
Jan 11 10:48:28 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, yes
Jan 11 10:48:33 <Meiz_n810> when i click "build theme"
Jan 11 10:48:48 <qwerty12> I may switch to g_serial and get it to upload files there. atm, I'm fucking around with xxd.
Jan 11 10:48:57 <stv0> hi
Jan 11 10:49:06 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: feel free to build g_serial and modulize it, rescue mode has already a menu point for it
Jan 11 10:49:06 <Meiz_n810> hi
Jan 11 10:49:10 <stv0> yeah i ported my first app ;)
Jan 11 10:49:35 <stv0> do we have any documents howto package apps?
Jan 11 10:51:11 <AstralSt> stv0: I'd like one too
Jan 11 10:51:18 <AstralSt> I guess debian packaging guide is it
Jan 11 10:52:50 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: and you're welcome to package up dropbear too
Jan 11 10:52:59 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, if you didn't catch it, I've had g_serial.ko on maemobox for a long time now
Jan 11 10:53:27 <Stskeeps> yeah, ok, ive just been to lazy to package it :P
Jan 11 10:53:49 <Stskeeps> johnx: yeah, it's my composite build causing it
Jan 11 10:53:49 <Stskeeps> lovely
Jan 11 10:54:08 <qwerty12> Fuck telnet. I've crashed utelnetd by pasting an hex dump into vi.
Jan 11 10:54:20 <aquatix> qwerty12: fun :)
Jan 11 10:54:36 * aquatix doesn't see the point of a telnetd on a modern device anyway
Jan 11 10:54:40 <RST38h> that sounds more like utelnetd problem =)
Jan 11 10:54:59 <Stskeeps> aquatix: small and for usb connecting :P
Jan 11 10:55:10 <aquatix> myeah
Jan 11 10:55:15 <RST38h> aquatix: the point is to let us all see his passwords
Jan 11 10:55:20 <aquatix> :)
Jan 11 10:55:25 <aquatix> RST38h: shush ;)
Jan 11 10:55:28 <qwerty12> Hah, what password. This is mer.
Jan 11 10:55:30 <RST38h> don't tell me it is not a worthy point
Jan 11 10:56:06 <RST38h> qwerty: in general I mean
Jan 11 10:56:06 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: 'rootme'
Jan 11 10:56:06 <Stskeeps> :>
Jan 11 10:56:12 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, fair enough :P
Jan 11 10:56:24 <qwerty12> I'm convinced utelnetd is there to piss me off.
Jan 11 10:57:51 <stv0> wtf why chmod +x dont work?
Jan 11 10:57:54 <Stskeeps> apt-get install dropbear? :P
Jan 11 10:58:02 <Stskeeps> stv0: doing it on a FAT filesystem? :P
Jan 11 10:58:07 <qwerty12> With what connection?
Jan 11 10:58:11 <stv0> oops
Jan 11 10:58:23 <qwerty12> If I had the internet, I'd be wgetting my way out of this shithole ;)
Jan 11 10:58:40 <stv0> i can't execute any code from a fat partition?
Jan 11 10:58:45 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: route add default gw 192.168.2.1? :P
Jan 11 10:58:56 <qwerty12> stv0, no. fat sucks. this is linux.
Jan 11 10:58:57 <Stskeeps> if your machine is 2.1
Jan 11 11:00:13 <wazd> daamn, I have totaly nothing to do(
Jan 11 11:00:21 <wazd> So boring
Jan 11 11:00:28 <stv0> yeah avrdude runs ;)
Jan 11 11:00:52 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: change your /etc/network/interfaces into http://trac.tspre.org/svn/deblet/trunk/packages/main/tablet-network-setup/interfaces.deblet
Jan 11 11:00:59 <Stskeeps> (just ignore the comments)
Jan 11 11:01:02 <Stskeeps> it will make your life a lot easier
Jan 11 11:01:11 <qwerty12> On the tablet I assume?
Jan 11 11:01:14 <Stskeeps> yeah
Jan 11 11:01:16 <qwerty12> Thanks
Jan 11 11:01:29 <Stskeeps> i guess you have johnx's masq curse in your machine /etc/network/interfaces
Jan 11 11:01:42 <qwerty12> My kernel setup on this machine is a fucking mess tbh
Jan 11 11:02:01 <Stskeeps> try test first with route add default gw stuff
Jan 11 11:02:06 <Stskeeps> and then ping some outside ip address
Jan 11 11:02:17 <Stskeeps> (ip not host)
Jan 11 11:02:18 <qwerty12> I can't even get my jffs2 images mounted any more - I have to use a hardy live cd just to get the maemo rootfs mounted
Jan 11 11:02:38 <qwerty12> ok
Jan 11 11:02:44 <AstralSt> qwerty12: you made lzma jffs2
Jan 11 11:02:52 <AstralSt> you now have to build a kernel with support for that
Jan 11 11:02:54 <AstralSt> :)
Jan 11 11:03:16 <qwerty12> AstralSt, they must have removed it then :/. Thanks :)
Jan 11 11:03:42 <AstralSt> as everything
Jan 11 11:03:52 <AstralSt> they remove useful features in maemo
Jan 11 11:03:56 <AstralSt> e.g. busybox w/o anything ;P
Jan 11 11:04:04 <qwerty12> hah
Jan 11 11:04:24 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, thanks, ping 209.85.173.147 works
Jan 11 11:04:59 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: edit your /etc/resolv.conf then
Jan 11 11:05:04 <Stskeeps> to match your DNS server
Jan 11 11:05:34 <qwerty12> Sure, let me get the address out of this router (god, I hate the restricted shell in this one..)
Jan 11 11:07:49 * Stskeeps notes to himself he's not going to be pleased if hildon-desktop just in general breaks on scratchbox
Jan 11 11:10:40 <Stskeeps> morning konttori
Jan 11 11:10:51 <konttori> morning
Jan 11 11:11:01 * konttori is back from costa del sol
Jan 11 11:11:08 <Stskeeps> hehe, back to cold cold finland?
Jan 11 11:12:20 <aquatix> hm, those RX-51 spec rumours appeal to me
Jan 11 11:13:00 <Stskeeps> it's even more fun digging in the source for those :P
Jan 11 11:13:13 <aquatix> :)
Jan 11 11:13:24 <lcuk> it will be even more fun to hold one :)
Jan 11 11:13:38 <aquatix> lcuk: ;)
Jan 11 11:14:03 <aquatix> might even lead me to not buying a full-fletched smartphone
Jan 11 11:14:46 <lcuk> well technically if we can get something voipish on the phone with skypeout type capabilities is there really a difference?
Jan 11 11:15:08 <aquatix> lcuk: yes
Jan 11 11:15:25 <aquatix> erm
Jan 11 11:15:29 <Stskeeps> can anyone explain to me what purpose 'gtkrc.maemo_af_desktop' has?
Jan 11 11:16:06 <lcuk> s/phone/tablet/
Jan 11 11:16:06 <infobot> lcuk meant: well technically if we can get something voipish on the tablet with skypeout type capabilities is there really a difference?
Jan 11 11:16:18 <aquatix> lcuk: well, network coverage basically
Jan 11 11:16:18 <lcuk> see even im confused
Jan 11 11:16:41 <aquatix> i can't call from my car with my n810
Jan 11 11:16:52 <lcuk> arent we expecting hspdadppdada on it with always on connectivity
Jan 11 11:16:58 <aquatix> ah right
Jan 11 11:17:04 <aquatix> true
Jan 11 11:17:13 <aquatix> but that's going to be more expensive than my gsm abo
Jan 11 11:17:18 <aquatix> rather a bit more
Jan 11 11:17:38 <konttori> Stskeeps: well, it's not that much colder in Helsinki atm, but costa del sol did have sun unlike the pitch black finland.
Jan 11 11:17:40 <lcuk> then we best get working on better compression algos :)
Jan 11 11:17:46 <konttori> aquarius-: what rumors?
Jan 11 11:17:57 <konttori> aquatix: what rumors
Jan 11 11:18:04 <aquatix> konttori: see maemo.org site/feed
Jan 11 11:18:15 <aquatix> http://maemo.org/community/council/community_highlights_for_december_2008-part_i-january_2009-part_ii/
Jan 11 11:18:20 <aquatix> RX-51 Rumor Mongering
Jan 11 11:18:21 <lcuk> mornin konttori
Jan 11 11:18:44 <Stskeeps> aquatix: yeah, and in any case, if it is even remotely like that, i would buy it :)
Jan 11 11:19:15 <aquatix> Stskeeps: me too
Jan 11 11:19:35 <aquatix> n810 will be my girlfriend's next handheld then
Jan 11 11:19:57 * aquatix looks at hsdpa abo's
Jan 11 11:20:16 <konttori> aquatix: nice finds!
Jan 11 11:20:38 <aquatix> konttori: i just saw it in the feed :)
Jan 11 11:20:58 <aquatix> that Ryan Abel guy put them in there
Jan 11 11:21:08 <Stskeeps> konttori: btw, if one was to adjust something in gtkrc in your theme maker for all themes you build, it would just be re-making that defaultsomething.zip you have?
Jan 11 11:21:10 * aquatix wonders what his irc nick is
Jan 11 11:21:15 <konttori> Has there been the promised weekly alpha sdk updates?
Jan 11 11:21:23 <qwerty12> aquatix, GeneralAntilles
Jan 11 11:21:26 <Stskeeps> konttori: haven't seen any yet
Jan 11 11:21:26 <aquatix> oh duh
Jan 11 11:21:43 <Stskeeps> konttori: on the other hand, we're first now really catching up to all the new material
Jan 11 11:21:45 <konttori> Stskeeps: yeah, you can just modify the .zip file.
Jan 11 11:21:47 <aquatix> qwerty12: i'm better in nicks than in real names ;)
Jan 11 11:21:51 <Stskeeps> konttori: thanks :)
Jan 11 11:21:52 <konttori> (or create another one of those)
Jan 11 11:22:06 <konttori> (you can have multiple and they will appear in the dropdown list)
Jan 11 11:22:10 <Stskeeps> konttori: mer is a bit special in the fact that it needs a icon fallback theme, not entirely sure why :P
Jan 11 11:23:04 <konttori> ok. I can also later add that to the theme maker default version as well.
Jan 11 11:23:30 <Stskeeps> yeah, we'll see :) perhaps we find out how to be closer to maemo in that aspect
Jan 11 11:23:45 <konttori> might make sense
Jan 11 11:24:00 <Stskeeps> yeah, able to use all the themes out there :P
Jan 11 11:24:12 * lcuk kicks his slow stretchblit
Jan 11 11:24:18 <konttori> indeed.
Jan 11 11:24:20 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, does root have a password?
Jan 11 11:24:33 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: nop
Jan 11 11:24:34 <GeneralAntilles> konttori, I had intended to talk with Quim about it at the Sprint meeting, but he wasn't there.
Jan 11 11:24:41 <GeneralAntilles> tekojo said "soon"
Jan 11 11:24:57 <konttori> GeneralAntilles: what sprint meeting?
Jan 11 11:25:07 <lcuk> the one you missed :P
Jan 11 11:25:13 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, hrm, ssh won't let me login even though I set it to allow empty password. I'll make another root account...
Jan 11 11:25:16 <konttori> mer spring meeting?
Jan 11 11:25:27 <GeneralAntilles> konttori http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Sprints/January_09 http://maemo.org/maemo-meeting
Jan 11 11:25:31 <aquatix> qwerty12: ssh doesn't allow empty pw's
Jan 11 11:25:40 <aquatix> erm
Jan 11 11:25:42 <qwerty12> aquatix, "ssh won't let me login even though I set it to allow empty password"
Jan 11 11:25:45 <aquatix> you set it to do?
Jan 11 11:25:47 <konttori> GeneralAntilles: thanks.
Jan 11 11:25:47 <aquatix> hm
Jan 11 11:25:53 <aquatix> nm then
Jan 11 11:25:54 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: it's simply i didn't set root password in imager :P
Jan 11 11:26:15 <konttori> and yeah, do try to push for the updates.
Jan 11 11:26:21 <GeneralAntilles> aquatix, I can give you part numbers if you'd like to investigate further. I didn't add them to the post since there was a negative initial reaction after discussion came out about the specs.
Jan 11 11:26:23 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, I dunno if setting a root password will mess anything up though so I may as well make another account with uid 0
Jan 11 11:26:41 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: 'passwd root' does the trick too
Jan 11 11:26:51 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, without messing anything else up?
Jan 11 11:26:54 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: negative reaction? what do you mean?
Jan 11 11:26:59 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: no bad reactions
Jan 11 11:27:04 <qwerty12> cool, thanks.
Jan 11 11:27:17 <GeneralAntilles> aquatix, well, the hardware guys were a bit surprised and disturbed at where the information may have come from.
Jan 11 11:27:24 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: ah :)
Jan 11 11:27:36 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: `use the source Luke' ;)
Jan 11 11:27:52 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: i think on the other hand it helps the community keeping vibrant and longing for the next device, though
Jan 11 11:27:56 <GeneralAntilles> It didn't amount to anything in the end and it's been set straight since, but since those parts are liable to change (as they have already for most of the items I listed at least once). . . .
Jan 11 11:27:58 <Stskeeps> instead of a years silence :P
Jan 11 11:28:14 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: but i think this info is enough for me to want it
Jan 11 11:28:28 <GeneralAntilles> aquatix, yeah, I'm a bit giddy over the next device. :D
Jan 11 11:28:32 <aquatix> :)
Jan 11 11:28:50 <aquatix> *wants*
Jan 11 11:29:21 <GeneralAntilles> The only thing I'm worried about are the hardware inputs.
Jan 11 11:29:26 <GeneralAntilles> dpad, keyboard, etc.
Jan 11 11:29:32 <aquatix> oh?
Jan 11 11:29:41 <GeneralAntilles> Well, I'm an N800 guy.
Jan 11 11:29:55 * qwerty12 hopes it's not the same design team as the people who worked on the N810
Jan 11 11:30:04 <aquatix> qwerty12: :)
Jan 11 11:30:05 <GeneralAntilles> I don't much care for the hardware keyboard, and the N810 is a big step down d-pad-wise from the N800 (not that it really seems possible. . . .)
Jan 11 11:30:12 <Stskeeps> i like the ease of popping the battery on a n810 thoug.
Jan 11 11:30:12 <aquatix> n810 works, but it's not optimal
Jan 11 11:30:14 <qwerty12> If it is, then we are SOL :)
Jan 11 11:30:22 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, tap it on your palm
Jan 11 11:30:26 <GeneralAntilles> It's as easy as can be.
Jan 11 11:30:30 <qwerty12> use a shank
Jan 11 11:30:35 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: yeah, but it is a lot easier on n810 :P
Jan 11 11:30:37 <lcuk> the dpad on n97 looks suspiciously familiar
Jan 11 11:30:45 <aquatix> lcuk: yeah
Jan 11 11:30:49 <konttori> nokia uses same components as often as possible
Jan 11 11:30:51 <GeneralAntilles> It's interesting that you never see hide nor hair of the hardware guys in the community.
Jan 11 11:31:03 <konttori> so, no surprise you see same components on multiple models
Jan 11 11:31:06 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: thought igor was in that area?
Jan 11 11:31:19 <aquatix> konttori: brings consistency cross-device too
Jan 11 11:31:23 <aquatix> can be a good thing
Jan 11 11:31:24 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, well, he's a kernel dev working very close to the hardware
Jan 11 11:31:26 <aquatix> if designed right
Jan 11 11:31:26 <lcuk> heh konttori it was an observation not a bad thing
Jan 11 11:31:28 <GeneralAntilles> but not really a hardware guy.
Jan 11 11:31:33 <Stskeeps> ah
Jan 11 11:31:36 <GeneralAntilles> i.e., the people that design the devices
Jan 11 11:31:55 <konttori> sure. and no, it's not a bad thing. as long as the dpads would be proper dpads all over nokia.
Jan 11 11:32:10 <Stskeeps> johnx: wtf.. no-composite hildon seems to break too
Jan 11 11:32:10 * konttori cannot ever stop complaining about the lack of proper dpads on nokia devices.
Jan 11 11:32:16 <GeneralAntilles> I'm sure there's plenty of day-jobbers, but it seems odd to me to put so much time into something and not really be involved with it.
Jan 11 11:32:23 * Stskeeps wonders what the hell happens
Jan 11 11:32:35 <GeneralAntilles> konttori, it's as if they do studies to figure out what the best d-pad design is then do the opposite. . . .
Jan 11 11:32:46 <lcuk> konttori, design new super interface devices modelled on pamela andersons boobs
Jan 11 11:32:49 <GeneralAntilles> The d-pads have, amazingly, just gotten worse with each generation.
Jan 11 11:33:16 <lcuk> we could have one on either side of the device and actually work on the cleavage area
Jan 11 11:33:31 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: same thing with the absence of scroll wheels
Jan 11 11:33:38 <aquatix> i like having a scroll wheel on a phone
Jan 11 11:33:39 <suihkulokki> "we want this mobile gaming thing to become BIG, what should we do? hmm.. let's make keys and d-pad unusable for gaming, that should do the trick!"
Jan 11 11:33:42 <aquatix> for example
Jan 11 11:33:54 <aquatix> like sony/sony ericsson had
Jan 11 11:33:54 <konttori> suihkulokki: yeah. receipt for successfull ngage
Jan 11 11:33:57 <GeneralAntilles> aquatix, yeah, they're nice, but I think the inertial scrolling in Fremantle should improve that at least a little.
Jan 11 11:34:11 <lcuk> aquatix, scroll wheels are needed on a touch device only if the interface is designed incorrectly
Jan 11 11:34:30 <aquatix> lcuk: why? it enables me to scroll quickly through a list with one hand
Jan 11 11:34:36 <GeneralAntilles> ^
Jan 11 11:34:38 <aquatix> or read an ebook comfortably
Jan 11 11:34:44 <GeneralAntilles> There's nothing wrong with a scroll wheel.
Jan 11 11:34:50 <GeneralAntilles> The 770 is perfect for ebooks
Jan 11 11:34:50 <lcuk> but the touchscreen should let you do that as well
Jan 11 11:34:59 <GeneralAntilles> N800 made the +/- buttons too damn small, though.
Jan 11 11:35:04 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: i found my n810 works really well for ebooks too
Jan 11 11:35:11 <aquatix> if i hold it in my left hand
Jan 11 11:35:16 <wazd> oh, hello konttori :)
Jan 11 11:35:24 <aquatix> then i have the +/- buttons under my fingertips
Jan 11 11:35:29 <GeneralAntilles> aquatix, I swap hands.
Jan 11 11:35:30 <konttori> wazd: hi
Jan 11 11:35:35 <GeneralAntilles> Depending on which side I'm laying on
Jan 11 11:35:42 <lcuk> i have fbreader setup with Left + DpadEnter to do next page, Right is previous page
Jan 11 11:35:44 <GeneralAntilles> Either turn pages with my index finger or thumb
Jan 11 11:35:48 <aquatix> well, in right hand i have my thumb then
Jan 11 11:35:51 <aquatix> yeah
Jan 11 11:36:10 <aquatix> lcuk: on n800?
Jan 11 11:36:16 <lcuk> lazy gorilla armed bookreading nightowls
Jan 11 11:36:22 <lcuk> no, 810
Jan 11 11:36:38 * aquatix doesn't want to slide out the keyboard when reading
Jan 11 11:36:42 <aquatix> too wide
Jan 11 11:36:47 <wazd> konttori: I've found whats the true problem with TM .psd template. All colors are in here but their descriptions have dissapeared
Jan 11 11:37:03 <lcuk> aquatix, i use my crate thing and rest that and arm is just there to hold it up (like a real book)
Jan 11 11:37:22 <aquatix> ah
Jan 11 11:37:23 <konttori> wazd: oh? really? I can have a look at that.
Jan 11 11:37:26 <lcuk> thumb is in right place all the time to turn pages
Jan 11 11:37:26 <johnx> Stskeeps, sorry, got distracted by things that aren't my computer :)
Jan 11 11:37:28 <johnx> installing now
Jan 11 11:37:36 <aquatix> myeah, a real book isn't comfortable when on your side
Jan 11 11:37:38 <aquatix> imho
Jan 11 11:37:46 <Stskeeps> johnx: yeah, just tested myself too now, and it crashes in both composite and non composite
Jan 11 11:37:46 <aquatix> too big too :)
Jan 11 11:37:58 <Stskeeps> johnx: this is first time we build it in scratchbox though
Jan 11 11:37:58 <Meiz_n810> konttori, what am i doing wrong when theme-maker just stays on 1% ?
Jan 11 11:38:25 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, for shame!
Jan 11 11:38:25 <johnx> Stskeeps, I've built it in scratchbox before I'm pretty sure...
Jan 11 11:38:49 <johnx> GeneralAntilles, :P
Jan 11 11:39:27 <wazd> konttori: wait I'll post a screenshot
Jan 11 11:39:57 <johnx> yeah, I can see why hardware guys would be a littie disturbed by seeing all of those specs in one nice little article :)
Jan 11 11:40:03 <konttori> Meiz_n810: You have to add icon template.
Jan 11 11:40:13 <konttori> it's a bug, sorry about it.
Jan 11 11:40:13 <johnx> surprised engadget didn't manage to pick it up, but I guess that's for the best
Jan 11 11:40:22 <Meiz_n810> ah, okay, i tought it was optional :)
Jan 11 11:40:24 <Meiz_n810> thanks
Jan 11 11:40:25 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, only posted last night. ;)
Jan 11 11:40:25 <konttori> so, just select a icon template and that should do it.
Jan 11 11:40:44 <aquatix> johnx: i can submit it on /. ? ;)
Jan 11 11:40:45 <konttori> yeah, it actually says optional, but apparently I had forgotten to make it optional.
Jan 11 11:40:46 <johnx> GeneralAntilles, but the info is from that long thread
Jan 11 11:40:52 * GeneralAntilles would be happy with his first Engadget link.
Jan 11 11:41:04 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, nah, info is from the kernel. :P
Jan 11 11:41:11 <Meiz_n810> konttori, icon theme image should be .png or .psd?
Jan 11 11:41:28 <wazd> Meiz_n810: all images should be png
Jan 11 11:41:30 <aquatix> Meiz_n810: i think png
Jan 11 11:41:35 <Meiz_n810> ok
Jan 11 11:41:46 <johnx> GeneralAntilles, right, kernel -> long thread -> your blog post. or did you go kernel diving yourself?
Jan 11 11:42:01 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, I went kernel diving as soon as it dropped.
Jan 11 11:42:03 <konttori> Meiz_n810: it's .png
Jan 11 11:42:16 <GeneralAntilles> I compiled all of the model numbers directly from there. :)
Jan 11 11:42:19 <konttori> Meiz_n810: there should be an example image bundled in.
Jan 11 11:42:26 <johnx> and yeah, if the hardware guys were a little surprised about that list the marketing guys would be having kittens if it showed up on engadget
Jan 11 11:42:39 <johnx> GeneralAntilles, wow...very nice work then :)
Jan 11 11:42:51 <aquatix> johnx: :)
Jan 11 11:42:59 <Meiz_n810> konttori: yep, there is, thanks for help
Jan 11 11:43:15 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, well, just have to spot all of the nonsense strings in the changelog. :P
Jan 11 11:43:30 <wazd> screw this, here's full Titan template :)
Jan 11 11:43:32 <wazd> http://s60.radikal.ru/i167/0901/f8/c1f80ffe3899.png
Jan 11 11:43:33 <aquatix> obfuscated changelogs?
Jan 11 11:43:35 <konttori> Maybe I should publish a fixed version soon.
Jan 11 11:43:50 <wazd> Konttori: check color table
Jan 11 11:43:57 <Stskeeps> johnx: i'm making builder build with -march=armv5te
Jan 11 11:43:59 <GeneralAntilles> aquatix, "nonsense" meaning model numbers that aren't real English words. ;)
Jan 11 11:44:00 <Stskeeps> any objections?
Jan 11 11:44:02 <konttori> I'll start making a fremantle version soonish as well, so, it might make sense to make a stable version before that.
Jan 11 11:44:09 <johnx> Stskeeps, what was it set to before?
Jan 11 11:44:14 <Stskeeps> johnx: no clue, honestly
Jan 11 11:44:16 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, yeah, Peter had a bit of a fit when lardman and I first discussed it.
Jan 11 11:44:39 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: ah :)
Jan 11 11:44:41 <johnx> heh. poor guy
Jan 11 11:44:44 <GeneralAntilles> Something along the lines of it ending the move towards openness for Maemo.
Jan 11 11:44:48 <konttori> wazd: yeah.
Jan 11 11:44:59 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, I'm pretty sure he's ex-S60. :D
Jan 11 11:45:03 <wazd> konttori: If you're making Fremantle version, then it's UI is ready?)
Jan 11 11:45:10 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: i was thinking about the changelogs by google people to webkit stuff before android was released
Jan 11 11:45:16 <aquatix> s/android/chrome
Jan 11 11:45:30 <konttori> wazd: you mean the fremantle UI?
Jan 11 11:45:36 <GeneralAntilles> aquatix, changelog diving is fun.
Jan 11 11:45:48 <wazd> konttori: yep
Jan 11 11:45:58 <konttori> Of course I cannot comment, but let's say it's ready enough I could start working on theme maker to support it.
Jan 11 11:46:02 <Stskeeps> konttori: curious question, in the current theme template there's the old hildon-desktop layout still, will the template still provide for this in the fremantle version?
Jan 11 11:46:17 <wazd> konttori: nice ;)
Jan 11 11:46:31 <Stskeeps> it would benefit us n8x0'ers quite a bit :P
Jan 11 11:47:03 <GeneralAntilles> wazd, Nokia's worried about the bad reaction early (and even not-so-early) UI previews tend to get, so they're waiting until it's final or almost final to release.
Jan 11 11:48:00 <johnx> also, the "helpful suggestions" that beta UIs encourage O_o
Jan 11 11:48:28 <wazd> General: I'm waiting too :) Already made a hole in my chair with butt :D
Jan 11 11:48:52 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, dunno about that, ;) but it's only a few months off.
Jan 11 11:49:07 <wazd> \
Jan 11 11:49:16 * Stskeeps likes the hildon widgets he's seen so far
Jan 11 11:49:21 <johnx> GeneralAntilles, it'll be a race to the finish whether I see the fremantle UI first or a Pandora :)
Jan 11 11:49:31 <wazd> damn, I have a real McDonalds under the keys :)
Jan 11 11:49:41 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, what if it's a tie?
Jan 11 11:50:09 <johnx> GeneralAntilles, I'll have the attention span of a hummingbird for about a week
Jan 11 11:50:20 <GeneralAntilles> The Fremantle Beta is released the same day Nokia announces the Pandora is RX-51. ;)
Jan 11 11:50:32 <johnx> "OMG! OMAP3! WTFWIN!" "OMG! clutter UI. wooo!"
Jan 11 11:50:32 <wazd> johnx: well, looking at Pandora's  hardware assembling speed I have bad news for you :D
Jan 11 11:50:43 <Stskeeps> johnx: that was my week when alpha sdk came out
Jan 11 11:51:02 <johnx> GeneralAntilles, nah no way. the pandora has a decent d-pad. Nokia would never ship that.
Jan 11 11:51:11 <aquatix> :)
Jan 11 11:51:17 <GeneralAntilles> Hehe
Jan 11 11:51:33 <GeneralAntilles> I gotta say, I've become quit impressed with TI over the last few years.
Jan 11 11:52:03 <wazd> gaming d-pad is not quite decent
Jan 11 11:52:19 <wazd> it's very comfortable but ruins device look
Jan 11 11:52:32 <Stskeeps> touchscreen dpad?
Jan 11 11:52:33 <Stskeeps> :P
Jan 11 11:52:40 <wazd> until the device is a gaming console)
Jan 11 11:52:50 <wazd> I'd prefere small analog stick
Jan 11 11:53:03 <wazd> it looks slick and does the trick well
Jan 11 11:53:34 <GeneralAntilles> wazd, have you thought about doing some mockups for h-a-m?
Jan 11 11:53:51 <wazd> General: for what?)
Jan 11 11:54:00 <lcuk> can we rename that app to b-a-c-o-n instead?
Jan 11 11:54:04 <GeneralAntilles> The Application Manager
Jan 11 11:54:25 <Stskeeps> lcuk: h-i-m-p-e exists too (hildon input method plugin example.. i think)
Jan 11 11:54:40 <GeneralAntilles> Ha!
Jan 11 11:54:44 <aquatix> Bitching AppliCatiON
Jan 11 11:54:47 <GeneralAntilles> I wish I had a reason to use that one
Jan 11 11:54:52 <wazd> General: well, I had some mock-ups very long ago
Jan 11 11:55:04 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, that sounds like some cool guy's name I want to shout as he comes in a bar.
Jan 11 11:55:11 <GeneralAntilles> Like "Norm!" except "Himpe!"
Jan 11 11:55:11 <wazd> long before new OS announcement)
Jan 11 11:56:15 <GeneralAntilles> wazd, I only mention it, because it's the Nokia application most likely to implement any UI mockups. ;)
Jan 11 11:56:34 <GeneralAntilles> I did some myself, but they're all very conservative and not all that exciting.
Jan 11 11:56:50 <wazd> General: oh, than I'll try :)
Jan 11 11:57:37 <wazd> Are there any wordpress users in here?)
Jan 11 11:58:23 <aquatix> wazd: why?
Jan 11 11:58:48 <wazd> I have very strange problem, a block with "publish" button'n'stuff disappeared
Jan 11 11:58:59 <aquatix> what version?
Jan 11 11:59:11 <wazd> Well, I'm on wordpress.com
Jan 11 11:59:19 <aquatix> ah
Jan 11 11:59:29 * aquatix has his own install
Jan 11 11:59:52 <wazd> I don't get where the heck it'sgone)
Jan 11 12:00:22 <aquatix> wazd: ctrl+f `publish' ?
Jan 11 12:00:23 <aquatix> :)
Jan 11 12:00:36 <wazd> Now I should post thru deep butthole
Jan 11 12:00:50 <wazd> oh, didn't know bout that
Jan 11 12:01:08 <aquatix> if i lost a button on a site, i generally just search the page :)
Jan 11 12:01:24 <aquatix> same with the `search' widget on a forum or something
Jan 11 12:05:30 <RST38h> Yes, wazd, please, please, redesign app manager UI =)
Jan 11 12:11:10 <qwerty12> Stskeeps, powerlaunch compiles fine but using it is a little funky. Init scripts don't agree with Mer and it (it being powered & powerlaunch) fails to "daemonize". It also wants to use dsmetool so I had to change it not to use that. The only thing I've been able to get it to do is to blank the screen if I hold down the power button.
Jan 11 12:12:41 <Stskeeps> qwerty12: *nod*
Jan 11 12:13:08 <Stskeeps> "%"¤!
Jan 11 12:13:21 * Stskeeps simply does not understand why hildon crashes all of a sudden
Jan 11 12:20:43 <AstralSt> Stskeeps: strace it
Jan 11 12:20:47 <AstralSt> or run in gdb
Jan 11 12:21:52 <Stskeeps> i am
Jan 11 12:23:02 <RST38h> larrdmann
Jan 11 12:24:13 <Stskeeps> hm, maybe it isn't even hildon crashing
Jan 11 12:25:24 <johnx> upgraded, rebooting
Jan 11 12:29:05 * Stskeeps watches his tablet dist-upgrade
Jan 11 12:34:15 <sinak> is there any nokia channel for asking about my n78?
Jan 11 12:34:30 <Stskeeps> no clue, this is mostly 770, n800 and n810 :P
Jan 11 12:35:02 <sinak> :-)
Jan 11 12:36:27 <GeneralAntilles> #symbian
Jan 11 12:37:43 <RST38h> *** #symbian   34   ... :: DO NOT ASK US TO SIGN YOUR SIS :: ...
Jan 11 12:37:53 <RST38h> Heh
Jan 11 12:38:09 * johnx wouldn't let grubby IRC users anywhere near his sister O_o
Jan 11 12:39:46 <konttori> Stskeeps: theme maker can have multiple layouts.
Jan 11 12:39:52 <Stskeeps> konttori: alright
Jan 11 12:41:11 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, especially not with the intention of signing . . . whatever that is. ;)
Jan 11 12:41:55 <qwerty12_N800> Signing is bullshit introduced by Nokia with Symbian 9.1.
Jan 11 12:42:07 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, yeah, I know. :P
Jan 11 12:42:22 <qwerty12_N800> sorry :)
Jan 11 12:42:43 <GeneralAntilles> I'm just not sure what signing a sister would involved. ;)
Jan 11 12:42:50 <RST38h> Actually introduced by Symbian
Jan 11 12:43:09 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, branding?...
Jan 11 12:43:18 <RST38h> Nokia has just been an accomplice who *could* tell Symbian to fuck themselves but did not
Jan 11 12:43:41 <lcuk> signing attempts to ensure control over distribution
Jan 11 12:44:04 <lcuk> but those evil haxx0rs keep breaking it
Jan 11 12:44:13 <qwerty12_N800> s/evil//
Jan 11 12:44:43 <lcuk> no, haxx0rs can be good as well :)
Jan 11 12:44:45 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, Nokia employees are actually the ones most responsible for the rotation patches. :P
Jan 11 12:45:21 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, the title of that thread pisses me off though ;/
Jan 11 12:45:25 <qwerty12_N800> *:/
Jan 11 12:45:39 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, well, he's not talking about you. :P
Jan 11 12:45:51 <RST38h> lcuk: Symbian capabilities system stod pretty well against hackers
Jan 11 12:45:57 <RST38h> Took them a few years to break
Jan 11 12:46:00 <glass> yeah..
Jan 11 12:46:10 <glass> but it sucks for non-commercial devs
Jan 11 12:46:20 <RST38h> It even sucks for commercial devs
Jan 11 12:46:24 <glass> commercial devs can get tcb -all caps, if they invest the time to get them
Jan 11 12:46:26 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, I know, but why should the community  o something for a response of fuck all from nokia
Jan 11 12:46:32 <qwerty12_N800> s/o/do
Jan 11 12:46:32 <lcuk> was that through its quality or just not worth fighting against?
Jan 11 12:46:37 <RST38h> One of the trivial things we have lost is the file type recognition
Jan 11 12:46:52 <RST38h> Type recognizers have to run at boot time on Symbian and THAT is a restricted capability
Jan 11 12:46:54 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, he's not talking about Nokia projects. :)
Jan 11 12:47:03 <GeneralAntilles> He's talking about helping out community projects.
Jan 11 12:47:15 <GeneralAntilles> Which you can do freely without involving Nokia at any point. :)
Jan 11 12:47:21 <glass> RST38h: we had to beg for months to get proper caps to do mmf plugins the system would load, got them eventually though
Jan 11 12:47:39 <RST38h> glass: yep. And I don't know anyone who ever got AllFiles cap
Jan 11 12:47:40 <glass> RST38h: and we basically had 1 symbian dev in house, so not a big corp
Jan 11 12:47:46 <glass> RST38h: we got it
Jan 11 12:48:01 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, either way, it's not worth wasting the first post to devolve it into a flamewar. ;)
Jan 11 12:48:02 <glass> RST38h: mmf plugins need all -tcb to be usable everywhere from built inapps
Jan 11 12:48:03 <RST38h> glass: Wow! What kind of sacrifice have you made?
Jan 11 12:48:10 <RST38h> glass: Was human meat involved? =)
Jan 11 12:48:18 <glass> RST38h: just knowing the right people in the end
Jan 11 12:48:22 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, I'm too quick to jump in it seems. I'll await and accept the response that says I'm talking out of my arse but i'm leaving that post there to bring attention to that point
Jan 11 12:48:30 <RST38h> glass: Sounds very...mm...soviet.
Jan 11 12:48:37 <aquatix> RST38h: they sent their office manager in a nice dress ;)
Jan 11 12:48:39 <glass> RST38h: yeah, but thats how things roll...
Jan 11 12:49:00 <RST38h> glass: That's definitely how it should not happen in application development
Jan 11 12:49:20 <glass> RST38h: yeah, definetely not. we could've been up and running in a month and now it took 1.5years
Jan 11 12:49:54 <RST38h> glass: Essentially, Symbian voluntarily jettisoned large swathes of its ecosystem
Jan 11 12:50:00 <glass> RST38h: but good learning experience on how to get things done in real world(tm)
Jan 11 12:50:33 <RST38h> glass: Naah, it is not real world, it is some kafkian fantasy from a bunch of Symbian executives. Normally, such stuff does not happen
Jan 11 12:51:03 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, besides, the foam-at-the-mouth approach isn't really very effective in convincing Nokia of your argument (despite its stress-relieving benefits).
Jan 11 12:51:38 <glass> the problem is that they have herds of pr people who talk to devs but don't do shit or read the mails even
Jan 11 12:51:41 <RST38h> glass: I have seen this a total of three times, I think - with IBM (support contracts, they are actually worthless), Symbian (you know what) and Sun (J2ME licensing)
Jan 11 12:52:00 <RST38h> glass: HAD :)
Jan 11 12:52:06 <RST38h> Not "have". hehe
Jan 11 12:52:11 <glass> hehe :)
Jan 11 12:52:28 <glass> like, what good is pro forum dedicated support person if he doesn't read his fucking mails or answer them
Jan 11 12:53:10 <aquatix> well, he's the *forum* person ;)
Jan 11 12:53:54 <wazd> Aw, have I missed holywar again?(
Jan 11 12:54:24 <RST38h> glass: reminds me of the demotivation poster with the phone
Jan 11 12:54:37 <glass> RST38h: haha :p
Jan 11 12:54:46 <RST38h> wazd: naah, just bitching about Symbian Signing. So, are you redesigning App manager UI? =)
Jan 11 12:55:32 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, I've learnt that's there is no point in convincing a company that doesn't listen. I'd say that it is more about me posting the things that have been on my mind. To me, Nokia can choke sucking my knob. while maemo.org & community is brilliant.
Jan 11 12:55:51 <GeneralAntilles> I keep thinking that "Problems with Mer..." thread is where we can all go to complain about Stskeeps. :P
Jan 11 12:56:07 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: so it is
Jan 11 12:56:08 <Stskeeps> :P
Jan 11 12:56:18 <GeneralAntilles> ...Stskeeps
Jan 11 12:56:22 <Stskeeps> ;>
Jan 11 12:56:30 <qwerty12_N800> Nah, you can /msg Stskeeps for that :p
Jan 11 12:56:35 <RST38h> glass: BTW, as an S60 guy, would you know why AknSettingsList shows all settings from multiple objects in the same control in S60e5?
Jan 11 12:56:59 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, don't think of Nokia as one giant entity.
Jan 11 12:57:07 <glass> RST38h: nope, theres #symbian here with couple of good guys though,  tbh i never really used akn much
Jan 11 12:57:41 <RST38h> General: a corporate policy is that every employee represents the same corporation so they should all have the same corporate point of view
Jan 11 12:58:05 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, it's hard not to though after only ever hearing the same thing.
Jan 11 12:58:06 <RST38h> glass: Neither did I :(
Jan 11 12:58:07 <GeneralAntilles> Mostly what you accomplished by spouting off like that is to put the people who are already on your side (Quim, in this case) in a bad position while having zero effect on the people actually making the bad decisions
Jan 11 13:03:28 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: re quim's post it might be an issue of that it is not immediately obviously on how to participate and contribute to the projects.. i mean, garage kinda just presents "these people work on this", but not direct methods for cooperating and contribution, compared to lets say, wikipedia, where you can contribute just by "edit" :P
Jan 11 13:06:31 <Stskeeps> and collaboration structure is not easy to make either
Jan 11 13:08:25 * lcuk would like to store information trees in a wikiesq database and let end users sync to the latest
Jan 11 13:09:55 <johnx> lcuk, that's called svn
Jan 11 13:10:12 <lcuk> yeah but "users" arent used to doing that (and git is better)
Jan 11 13:10:34 <lcuk> johnx, we are used to it for code
Jan 11 13:10:38 <johnx> s/svn/an scm/
Jan 11 13:10:39 <infobot> johnx meant: lcuk, that's called an scm
Jan 11 13:10:52 <johnx> users get nightly tarballs or autobuilt packages
Jan 11 13:11:34 <RST38h> Looks like there is a problem you are missing
Jan 11 13:12:00 <lcuk> johnx, i mean for data not code
Jan 11 13:12:11 <lcuk> ie ui layouts and stuff
Jan 11 13:12:12 <RST38h> The problem is that the chances of seeing your contributions appear in an official Nokia software update are very slim
Jan 11 13:13:11 <johnx> lcuk, nightly packages in an apt repository are still a good way to do data distribution
Jan 11 13:13:35 <RST38h> No technical feature (SVN, GIT, Wiki, whatever) will solve that. It is a matter of policy.
Jan 11 13:13:58 <qwerty12_N800> RST38h, so true.
Jan 11 13:13:58 <lcuk> johnx, my point wasn't "its not possible", its "its not usual"
Jan 11 13:13:59 <johnx> right, but I was just answering lcuk :)
Jan 11 13:15:08 <johnx> lcuk, nope, but if you want help setting it up, I might be able to offer some help
Jan 11 13:15:14 <lcuk> theres other issues svn introduces which arent as apparant with wikiesq model (collisions occur on the one file the user edits live on the cloud vs a whole subset of files needing managing)
Jan 11 13:15:50 <lcuk> i will need something in the near future johnx, it relates to the entire profile of user/system data and between machines
Jan 11 13:15:54 <johnx> aaaah, so a contribution system for non-programmers. I thought you were just talking about users as the consumers
Jan 11 13:18:49 <lcuk> long range :: once i start making new tiles and cells it should be possible for 50 users to contribute their own favorite layout for X class in Y context.  i want a way for ratings and voting to adapt the "default" interface to let the community improve the look and feel of apps easily without having to be technical developers
Jan 11 13:20:04 <lcuk> since an interface file is just a small thing that says show this data here using this style its entirely feasible for the technical app to simply present the data as expected
Jan 11 13:21:11 <johnx> have users submit to a wiki and scrape it off?
Jan 11 13:21:37 <lcuk> well thats the simplest
Jan 11 13:22:05 <lcuk> but when a user connects after being offline for a week theres 100 files changed, he doesnt want to manage the collisions
Jan 11 13:22:26 <lcuk> and he doesnt want his personal decisions overwritten either
Jan 11 13:22:33 <johnx> right, so scrape off a wiki and into a package
Jan 11 13:23:07 <johnx> there's already a unix-y solution to that: files in /home/$USER/.liqtiles are searched first, then /usr/share/liqtiles
Jan 11 13:23:09 <lcuk> and the meaning of wiki in this context is wiki == generational database == git == svn
Jan 11 13:23:51 <lcuk> yes ive got functions to enumerate multiple folders like that
Jan 11 13:23:56 <lcuk> but theres other issues as well
Jan 11 13:23:57 <johnx> right, but it might be easier to have a backend process automatically scrape a wiki and generate a package then to make an easy frontend to svn
Jan 11 13:24:06 <lcuk> yeah 100% agree
Jan 11 13:24:46 <lcuk> it could simply be the server process itself that supplies a dataset based on the connected client
Jan 11 13:25:29 <johnx> hmm? probably being thick, but I didn't follow that last bit
Jan 11 13:25:34 <lcuk> ive got half a mind to put the code directly in liqbase to test and have my n810 clients connect to the x41 server
Jan 11 13:25:45 <johnx> :/
Jan 11 13:25:55 <lcuk> heh
Jan 11 13:26:13 <lcuk> ok, for the server process to use libliqbase :)
Jan 11 13:26:35 <lcuk> cos that already knows the layouts and structures required and can extract the required metadata out of the media files
Jan 11 13:27:56 <johnx> I suppose...
Jan 11 13:28:59 <lcuk> heh, i have to get away from calling everything liqbase, im already writing simple little apps which just open up and run and close again :)
Jan 11 13:29:06 <johnx> so liq on the client, will just connect to the server and pull layouts down to $HOME/.liq or whatever
Jan 11 13:29:35 <lcuk> basically thats the idea
Jan 11 13:34:09 <RST38h> liqpaint
Jan 11 13:34:13 <RST38h> liqword
Jan 11 13:34:15 <johnx> I kind of like the idea of updated packages better...
Jan 11 13:34:20 <Stskeeps> liqoffice
Jan 11 13:34:21 <RST38h> liqsheet ? mmm
Jan 11 13:34:22 <qwerty12_N800> liqoffice
Jan 11 13:34:51 <lcuk> im not licking any shit
Jan 11 13:35:01 <qwerty12_N800> liqshit
Jan 11 13:35:30 <RST38h> lcuk: BTW, have you seen Nokia's paint app for the S60e5?
Jan 11 13:36:20 <lcuk> no, but i bet it has many things more than my simple app :)  (mind you, drawing in the sand does as well)
Jan 11 13:36:37 <RST38h> not really :)
Jan 11 13:36:42 <lcuk> lemme see
Jan 11 13:36:53 <RST38h> But I thought you can steal the overall UI
Jan 11 13:37:04 <RST38h> http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/8752_Mobile_Paint_for_the_5800_and_.php
Jan 11 13:37:05 <lcuk> i have my design for the ui :)
Jan 11 13:37:20 <RST38h> http://symbianworld.org/1143-mobile-paint-for-the-nokia-5800-xpressmusic/
Jan 11 13:37:27 <RST38h> lcuk: Screenshots? =)
Jan 11 13:38:36 <lcuk> whats wrong with the current layout?  but theres other things ( pupnik's corner nodes look amazing and scale well )
Jan 11 13:39:18 <RST38h> The last version I have seen had controls at a fixed spot and they obscured too much of the canvas
Jan 11 13:43:16 <lcuk> technically thats what the fullscreen button should be for :)
Jan 11 13:44:11 <lcuk> the UI presented is fine, but if you want it to go away you press fullscreen, sorted
Jan 11 13:45:46 <pupnik_> lcuk: wut? implemented? you them? wut?
Jan 11 13:45:51 <RST38h> you can't use it if you turn it off completely, can you?
Jan 11 13:46:48 <pupnik_> some kind of quick way to pick brush and color/shade is essential to drawing and staying in right-brain mode
Jan 11 13:46:51 * Gadgetoid envies this channel, OpenPandora is so... dead
Jan 11 13:47:19 <pupnik_> navigating menus, reading text kicks one into leftbrain mode
Jan 11 13:47:19 <lcuk> since liqsketch isnt even a bitmap drawing prog its not really important ;)
Jan 11 13:47:20 <pupnik_> we have actual devices Gadgetoid
Jan 11 13:47:27 <pupnik_> ok
Jan 11 13:47:37 <Gadgetoid> Yeah pupnik_, I hear ya there!
Jan 11 13:47:52 <lcuk> RST38h, on a device this small its always compromise
Jan 11 13:48:15 <pupnik_> that's what my girlfriend said!
Jan 11 13:48:21 <lcuk> you are a dev, come up with a usable ui and ill implement it
Jan 11 13:48:31 <RST38h> lcuk: And Nokia handles it pretty well with its small icon bars overlaid onto the screen (see their Touch Paint and also the Media Bar in S60e5)
Jan 11 13:48:59 <RST38h> Hiding UI completely also work and is simpler but it is somewhat more cumbersome to the user
Jan 11 13:49:01 <johnx> Gadgetoid, check pandoradev on efnet as well
Jan 11 13:49:24 <lcuk> RST38h, how are those any different to mine really?
Jan 11 13:49:30 <lcuk> i have 640*480 usable drawing space
Jan 11 13:50:40 <RST38h> i.e. 160x480 (20% of the screen space) is lost
Jan 11 13:50:54 <RST38h> You can reduce that to 5%
Jan 11 13:51:15 <Stskeeps> johnx: http://rafb.net/p/P3TzSg39.html <- hildon crash
Jan 11 13:51:23 <RST38h> And even less if you make icons simple and transparent
Jan 11 13:51:44 <Stskeeps> johnx: there seems to be stack corruption
Jan 11 13:52:01 <johnx> eep O_o
Jan 11 13:52:31 <Stskeeps> (proxy goes from being real to 0x0)
Jan 11 13:52:50 <johnx> yeah, I've been playing with it a bit
Jan 11 13:53:28 <Stskeeps> i just wonder if it's a toolchain thing or something else :P
Jan 11 13:55:46 <lcuk> RST38h, but then i have to click twice to change things
Jan 11 13:56:12 <RST38h> lcuk: No, why?
Jan 11 13:56:17 <johnx> Stskeeps, that does narrow it down. I'll try building on native arm just for fun. think it's in hildon-desktop?
Jan 11 13:56:20 <Gadgetoid> Hmm
Jan 11 13:56:26 <Gadgetoid> Aha
Jan 11 13:56:27 <lcuk> once to open the menu another to click the item
Jan 11 13:56:54 <RST38h> lcuk: oh, no
Jan 11 13:56:57 <wazd> okay, yesterday's question is stil here
Jan 11 13:57:09 <wazd> Can I sue ISP for it's sexual orientation?
Jan 11 13:57:10 <Stskeeps> johnx: not sure yet but its either or glib or gtk else..
Jan 11 13:57:15 <lcuk> oh, yes, look at the color palette on your example app - you have to click to change color
Jan 11 13:57:17 <RST38h> lcuk: The strip of icons is always at the screen (unless you hide it with FullScreen like you do now)
Jan 11 13:57:21 <Stskeeps> wazd: maybe in russia..
Jan 11 13:57:31 <RST38h> wazd: your ISP has certain preferences?
Jan 11 13:57:33 <johnx> Stskeeps, ah, but I didn't upgrade gtk/glib :)
Jan 11 13:57:52 <Stskeeps> johnx: yeah, but me neither, it should be the one from repo
Jan 11 13:57:54 <lcuk> click once brings up the color select, then change the color with another click and probably a third to accept that selection
Jan 11 13:57:54 <wazd> RST38h: my ISP is definetely not the straight one
Jan 11 13:58:12 <RST38h> lcuk: But the icons are rrrrreally simple (single color, transparent background)
Jan 11 13:58:26 <RST38h> lcuk: and they are only 40x40 each, arranged in a slim strip
Jan 11 13:58:28 <johnx> ah, well I'll build hildon-desktop natively and see what happens
Jan 11 13:58:38 <Stskeeps> johnx: k, from apt-source i presume?
Jan 11 13:58:43 <lcuk> i dont care how really simple they are, its wasteful to have to click 3 times to change a color
Jan 11 13:58:48 <lcuk> deluxe paint had it right :)
Jan 11 13:59:11 <johnx> Stskeeps, that was the idea
Jan 11 13:59:21 <RST38h> lcuk: for changing colors you can still have a palette like you do now, just small and having a button-like frame
Jan 11 13:59:21 <wazd> Bubbles on Mer wallpaper will look silly
Jan 11 13:59:36 <lcuk> but these kinds of conversations are why i want multiple uis for an app :)
Jan 11 13:59:48 <lcuk> you should be able to have the interface as you expect
Jan 11 13:59:58 <lcuk> whatever my religion :)
Jan 11 14:00:04 <wazd> http://s59.radikal.ru/i163/0901/af/91b429e669dc.jpg
Jan 11 14:00:08 <RST38h> wazd: dump it! tell 'em you do not love 'em any more
Jan 11 14:00:27 <RST38h> lcuk: just one good one will be better
Jan 11 14:01:07 <wazd> what icons are you discussing?
Jan 11 14:01:29 <wazd> RTS38h: the worst thing is that it's the only ISP in here
Jan 11 14:02:36 <RST38h> wazd: liqbase UI
Jan 11 14:03:02 <lcuk> RST38h, we will never ever get a single glorious perfect ui which everyone will be happy with - its like football and religion and anything, you will have your predefined expectations and would be best to allow the dev to write features and let the UI departments supply the layout
Jan 11 14:03:25 <RST38h> wazd: I insist on having an icon strip similar to the 5800 media bar. Lcuk just wants to have a 160x480 bar with icons at the right, like the old MS Paint or Designer+
Jan 11 14:04:12 <RST38h> wazd: What district? And can't you just switch to Stream?
Jan 11 14:04:41 <wazd> RST38h: damn center of Moscow(
Jan 11 14:05:10 <wazd> RST38h: Stream works here even worse, thanks to WW2 landlines
Jan 11 14:05:16 <RST38h> wazd: Oh yes
Jan 11 14:05:30 <RST38h> wazd: What about fixed WiMax?
Jan 11 14:05:57 <wazd> RST38h: doesn't work near my home for now
Jan 11 14:06:05 <lcuk> technically RST38h that colorbar could give us both what we want, if i want a big palette that works live with a single click the palette icon could be bigger and live, if you want click to select and smaller that should also work
Jan 11 14:07:02 <wazd> RST38h: can you show a screenshot with 5800 mediabar? I'm not very familliar with that device
Jan 11 14:07:18 <pupnik_> hi like it wazd
Jan 11 14:07:22 <wazd> lcuk: you want to change icon's colors?
Jan 11 14:07:28 <lcuk> but why is space wasted with a close button? dont these devices have a hardware back button?
Jan 11 14:07:33 <lcuk> no wazd
Jan 11 14:07:34 <RST38h> lcuk: Exactly
Jan 11 14:07:49 <lcuk> but the app works the same, its all a matter of ui layout
Jan 11 14:08:05 <lcuk> and i have my preferences and you have yours
Jan 11 14:08:24 <RST38h> wazd: http://www.smartdevicecentral.com/slide/Nokia+5800+XpressMusic/232665_233881_11_0.aspx
Jan 11 14:08:34 <RST38h> wazd: (but with transparent icons)
Jan 11 14:09:32 <RST38h> lcuk: I doubt you can make such drastic UI changes with settings...although it all depends on what these settings are, if they are a script...
Jan 11 14:09:52 <wazd> in fact Iike hildon concept
Jan 11 14:10:09 <lcuk> no, they are part UI layout (Ive sketched hundreds of alternative layouts for all sorts of apps)
Jan 11 14:10:10 <wazd> 1 hardware button to get rid of UI from the screen
Jan 11 14:10:54 <lcuk> wazd, hildon didnt invent it - its been available in lots of places for a long long time
Jan 11 14:11:09 <wazd> lcuk: whatever :)
Jan 11 14:11:11 <lcuk> (f11 on browser windows)
Jan 11 14:11:18 <lcuk> hardware button to get rid of ui
Jan 11 14:11:37 <lcuk> deluxepaint had similar and im sure lots of apps do as well
Jan 11 14:11:42 <wazd> lcuk: but it was first on mobile I think
Jan 11 14:12:01 <LinuxCode> did somebody mention deluxepaint ?
Jan 11 14:12:04 <LinuxCode> ;-D
Jan 11 14:12:07 <lcuk> huh? laptops were around long before
Jan 11 14:12:13 <wazd> no, I don't mean standalone app
Jan 11 14:12:13 * LinuxCode reminisces in old AMiga times
Jan 11 14:12:26 <wazd> I mean whole OS UI
Jan 11 14:13:17 <RST38h> wazd: http://www.mosnet.ru/ao/61/
Jan 11 14:13:19 <lcuk> wazd, that its a good feature isnt disputed, but its not specifically hildon
Jan 11 14:13:21 <wazd> lcuk: can you show what do you want to do with UI?
Jan 11 14:13:47 <RST38h> wazd: the hide-all-ui model isn't going to be good if you use UI often, like in a sketching app
Jan 11 14:15:10 <lcuk> i thought i had already started to wazd
Jan 11 14:15:14 <wazd> RST38h: Hildon doesn't hide all UI
Jan 11 14:15:59 <RST38h> wazd: http://liqbase.net/ !
Jan 11 14:16:32 <wazd> ah, I thought you came up with something new)
Jan 11 14:16:34 <wazd> sorry)
Jan 11 14:17:07 <lcuk> no im all done now, the well is dry nothing at all left in me *rolleyes*
Jan 11 14:17:45 <wazd> Well, for sketch app it's the best layout probably
Jan 11 14:18:11 <lcuk> its certainly simple and effective and it passes the 6year old test :)
Jan 11 14:18:27 <lcuk> and the 85year old one
Jan 11 14:18:28 <wazd> all graphics editors uses pretty much same scheme
Jan 11 14:20:20 <Meiz_n810> Stskeeps: segfault problem fixed?
Jan 11 14:20:37 * Meiz_n810 is dist-upgrading his mer installation...
Jan 11 14:21:29 * Meiz_n810 boots to Mer
Jan 11 14:22:26 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: no
Jan 11 14:34:11 <wazd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnsaDc6criM < browser speed, Atom vs OMAP3
Jan 11 14:37:37 <johnx> that's so far from scientific...
Jan 11 14:38:53 <lcuk> in the rx-51 spec is there a accelerometer ?
Jan 11 14:39:16 <johnx> well, there's one enabled in nokia's kernel config
Jan 11 14:39:25 <lcuk> thats enough
Jan 11 14:40:27 <RST38h> wazd: none of these guys (mosnet) have wiring at your home?
Jan 11 14:40:59 <wazd> RST38h: nope, we have only one(
Jan 11 14:41:30 <wazd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjiTAX6L2-k - hope pandora guys didn't take that seriously :)
Jan 11 14:42:23 <wazd> Pandora need not touchscreen oriented UI
Jan 11 14:43:00 <RST38h> it will use direct mindmelt interface
Jan 11 14:43:26 <wazd> RST38h: that's better :)
Jan 11 14:43:42 <lcuk> wazd, the omap is using lower res ;)
Jan 11 14:43:45 <lcuk> its not like for like
Jan 11 14:44:00 <lcuk> offtopic: windows 2000 is there a msconfig type thing?
Jan 11 14:44:07 <johnx> wazd, neat idea, but I think that you'll definitely need to get the community in on that design as the pandora guys do not have the manpower to do their own GUI I think...
Jan 11 14:44:28 <qwerty12_N800> lcuk, maybe sysinternals autoruns (freeware)
Jan 11 14:45:02 <lcuk> its a craptop with a floppy, no cd rom no wireless or usb
Jan 11 14:45:28 <Stskeeps> i'm thinking.. is there really other device communities where marketing, UI, kernel&hw, userland coders, etc, discuss for pages and pages of posts on their community websites?
Jan 11 14:45:38 <qwerty12_N800> lcuk, Think it's small enough to fit on a floppy...
Jan 11 14:45:57 <johnx> Stskeeps, not even on the pandora :)
Jan 11 14:46:01 <lcuk> there is exactly one floppy drive in this house (found this morning)
Jan 11 14:46:28 <lcuk> Stskeeps, some do more than just talk, my fingers are aching from what im trying to achieve :)
Jan 11 14:47:29 <wazd> lcuk: I think it should be in 2K since it is in XP
Jan 11 14:47:40 <wazd> ctrl+r - msconfig
Jan 11 14:47:49 <lcuk> no, its not, but thats ok
Jan 11 14:48:01 <qwerty12_N800> regedt32 ;)
Jan 11 14:49:56 <lcuk> its ok its sorting itself out, its just a really ancient toshiba jake seems to have attachd himself onto was taking forever loading stuff it doesnt need
Jan 11 14:50:07 <johnx> Stskeeps, actually, do you mean "do the users discuss?" or "do the people who made the device participate?"
Jan 11 14:52:28 <wazd> Pandora needs UI like PSP or something, analog stick oriented
Jan 11 14:52:57 <wazd> cause I don't know how to use touchscreen with clamshel formfactor
Jan 11 14:53:06 <johnx> right, and someone needs to cook that up, but I'm betting it's not the pandora devs who will make it :)
Jan 11 14:53:22 <pupnik_> they have a simple game-selector thing that runs on boot, as an alternative to a full os, afaik
Jan 11 14:53:27 <johnx> actually touchscreen in a "small laptop" form factor with a stylus isn't that bad
Jan 11 14:54:48 <Stskeeps> johnx: latter
Jan 11 14:55:07 <RST38h> wazd: pandora needs hardware to be released and shipped to people who ordered it
Jan 11 14:55:21 <johnx> hmm, then "not that I know of." At least not on any big forums
Jan 11 14:55:39 <wazd> RST38h: dreams dreams :)
Jan 11 14:55:49 <RST38h> wazd: As to UI, it has got a directional pad, so that should not be a problem
Jan 11 14:55:55 <RST38h> A simple menu will do
Jan 11 14:56:20 <johnx> the company that made the zipit1 and 2 communicated pretty well, but that was usually via private mail
Jan 11 14:57:44 <johnx> oooh, batteries arrived for the pandora :)
Jan 11 14:58:02 <johnx> (not to me, but to the people putting them together)
Jan 11 14:58:04 <Stskeeps> heh
Jan 11 14:58:20 <Stskeeps> refurbished sony batteries/the ones that exploded?
Jan 11 14:58:21 <Stskeeps> ;)
Jan 11 14:59:14 <johnx> actually, they're custom batteries that are the size of the whole bottom of the pandora. runs an omap3 at full tilt for ~8 hours
Jan 11 14:59:31 <RST38h> Pandora vs. Optimus Maximus: FIGHT!
Jan 11 14:59:50 <johnx> RST38h, well, the pandora will have a better keyboard...
Jan 11 15:00:06 <pupnik_> better than n810?
Jan 11 15:00:17 <RST38h> johnx: Will it have more pixels though?
Jan 11 15:00:24 <johnx> pupnik_, nah, probably not. more of a joke on the optimus maximum
Jan 11 15:00:57 * pupnik_ does the 4000 mAh dance
Jan 11 15:01:29 <RST38h> Energizer Bunny?
Jan 11 15:01:42 <wazd> whoa, pandora will have a car battery?)
Jan 11 15:01:46 <johnx> RST38h, "the optimus maximus features crisp lettuce and tender chicken, but the pandora included refried beans and zesty cheese sauce"
Jan 11 15:02:02 <johnx> wazd, yup. comes in a backpack. :P
Jan 11 15:02:28 <pupnik_> if you ever do put a car battery in a backpack, make sure you have a sealed enclosure
Jan 11 15:02:47 <pupnik_> i have pics of what results if you don't
Jan 11 15:02:50 <RST38h> pupnik: gel-based batteries are sealed, they don't leak
Jan 11 15:02:52 <johnx> pupnik_, so that the gas can accumulate? I think you want some vents ....
Jan 11 15:03:01 <wazd> I wonder how 1300 mAh battery can power n800 for 6 hours and 4000 mAh battery can power Panda for only 10 hours then
Jan 11 15:03:04 <pupnik_> sorry sealed from leakage, not air
Jan 11 15:03:05 <johnx> RST38h, car batteries generally aren't "gel cells"
Jan 11 15:03:24 <pupnik_> i.e. a bucket
Jan 11 15:03:34 <RST38h> johnx: The one I had in a Camry certainly was
Jan 11 15:03:39 <johnx> wazd, turn your screen to full bright, CPU at 100% and wifi downloading something. you won't see 6 hours then
Jan 11 15:03:56 <johnx> RST38h, from the factory? or because you spent a lot of money on an expensive battery?
Jan 11 15:04:04 <pupnik_> wazd: also more ram = more drain, plus they're being conservative
Jan 11 15:04:05 <RST38h> johnx: (and yes, I have seen the insides, after it exploded)
Jan 11 15:04:24 <pupnik_> why did your battery splode?
Jan 11 15:04:28 <RST38h> johnx: It wasn't the first battery, yes.
Jan 11 15:04:33 <RST38h> pupnik: A short.
Jan 11 15:04:59 <RST38h> pupnik: Have been scrapping gel for three hours afterwards
Jan 11 15:05:26 <johnx> so did you switch back to wet cells?
Jan 11 15:05:29 <wazd> johnx: Panda will do 10 hours on that load?)
Jan 11 15:05:40 <RST38h> johnx: No, I have put a bigger battery! =)
Jan 11 15:05:58 <johnx> wazd, 8 :) but yes, they did a stress test
Jan 11 15:06:15 <johnx> RST38h, you're doing it all wrong. :P You want the lightest battery that can start your car
Jan 11 15:06:21 <RST38h> johnx: Are wet cells better somehow?
Jan 11 15:06:25 <Stskeeps> johnx: how's h-d baking?
Jan 11 15:06:28 <jaska> they need to make handheld-usable radioisotope thermal generators
Jan 11 15:06:39 <RST38h> johnx: well, I am not a car guy. If it runs and does not cause me problems, I am happy.
Jan 11 15:06:40 <jaska> so i can keep them at 100% load for 40 years at a time or so
Jan 11 15:06:43 <johnx> RST38h, yeah they don't cost a fortune :)
Jan 11 15:06:55 <johnx> Stskeeps, just died as you mentioned it
Jan 11 15:07:00 <Stskeeps> lovely
Jan 11 15:07:09 <Stskeeps> schroedingers h-d
Jan 11 15:07:35 <RST38h> johnx: cost me something like $50, was it expensive?
Jan 11 15:07:42 <johnx> Stskeeps, died in the gtk-doc part of the build
Jan 11 15:08:04 <johnx> RST38h, nah, not that expensive, but I'd be leary of a gel cell that cheap. :) they tend to explode :D
Jan 11 15:08:12 <Stskeeps> johnx: define died?
Jan 11 15:08:59 <johnx> Stskeeps, nevermind...forgot to enable swap
Jan 11 15:09:02 <Stskeeps> ah
Jan 11 15:09:03 <johnx> <- fails it
Jan 11 15:09:15 <RST38h> johnx: First time I hear this.
Jan 11 15:09:34 <johnx> RST38h, just kidding about that, but that does strike me as a cheap gel cell :)
Jan 11 15:09:54 <Stskeeps> johnx: i'm gonna build a new hildon-desktop-env btw
Jan 11 15:09:59 <RST38h> johnx: I was actually surprised that I couldn't buy a gel battery in Moscow
Jan 11 15:10:02 <johnx> RST38h, most of "the good ones" (dunno what makes them good) were upwards of $150 IIRC (been a while since I was a car guy :) )
Jan 11 15:10:21 <Stskeeps> (i push to lp:~mer-committers/m-r/hildon-desktop-env)
Jan 11 15:10:36 <johnx> Stskeeps, ok, if I change anything I'll push there from now on
Jan 11 15:10:42 <Stskeeps> alright
Jan 11 15:12:01 <Stskeeps> 770 didn't do thumb did it?
Jan 11 15:12:17 <johnx> the t in armv5te is thumb I believe
Jan 11 15:12:30 <johnx> I think t is one of the important requirements for EABI
Jan 11 15:13:04 <Stskeeps> does your zaurus do thumb? :P
Jan 11 15:14:04 <johnx> yes, it's armv5te :)
Jan 11 15:14:04 <Stskeeps> mmk
Jan 11 15:14:27 <johnx> yup, Features: swp half thumb fastmult edsp iwmmxt
Jan 11 15:14:37 <Stskeeps> k
Jan 11 15:15:14 <RST38h> -t is for thumb but EABI does not require it afaik
Jan 11 15:16:41 <johnx> RST38h, I've heard about there being some differences between ARM's EABI standard and the EABI implementation for linux. But currently EABI in linux requires an armv4t or later, with the armv4 (strongarm) being OABI
Jan 11 15:17:17 <RST38h> johnx: Given that Thumb is disabled unless you specifically enable it, I find it strange
Jan 11 15:17:28 <RST38h> i.e. you have to TELL gcc use thumb
Jan 11 15:18:23 <johnx> RST38h, I go by what I see here: http://wiki.debian.org/ArmEabiPort
Jan 11 15:18:46 <johnx> see "Thumb interworking suggests armv4t"
Jan 11 15:19:13 <johnx> it is entirely possible that's incorrect or I'm misinterpreting it. in which case clarification would be nice :)
Jan 11 15:20:04 <RST38h> johnx: Ah you mean this
Jan 11 15:20:27 <johnx> "The EABI includes thumb interworking"
Jan 11 15:20:32 <RST38h> johnx: thumb interworking is an optional EABI feature that lets you mix ARM and THUMB code in the same program
Jan 11 15:21:08 <RST38h> johnx: If you do not have THUMB in your CPU, you can still use the same ABI but you obviously should disable thumb interworking when compiling code
Jan 11 15:21:24 <RST38h> (in fact, gcc has it disabled by default :))
Jan 11 15:22:44 <johnx> fair enough. I guess my thinking is from the perspective of the user of a binary distro on ARM devices: Becuase debian/ubuntu/(probably fedora) are compiled with thumb interworking enabled, they won't run on an armv4l
Jan 11 15:22:50 <johnx> a fact which saddens me :/
Jan 11 15:23:34 <RST38h> correct
Jan 11 15:24:05 <RST38h> But it is really not a given fact that your app will work faster in Thumb mode
Jan 11 15:24:18 <RST38h> Sometimes it will, depending on how complex your code is
Jan 11 15:25:23 <johnx> the more complex the code = the more it helps be reducing contention for CPU cache, right?
Jan 11 15:25:30 <RST38h> Nope
Jan 11 15:25:55 <johnx> well, I like that theory :P :)
Jan 11 15:26:14 <RST38h> code cache contention depends on two things only: your binary size (MIPS sucks at that btw) and the number of far jumps you are making
Jan 11 15:26:41 <johnx> but doesn't thumb produce smaller binary size?
Jan 11 15:27:15 <RST38h> Thumb helps that by using 16bit instructions
Jan 11 15:28:15 <RST38h> Also, if you have got 16bit data bus, Thumb code will run better over it
Jan 11 15:28:32 <lcuk> but non thumb code can do a lot more per op
Jan 11 15:28:53 <trenka> lcuk: why?
Jan 11 15:29:03 <RST38h> BUT you lose: conditional execution (read: more jumps), free shifts, large constants usage
Jan 11 15:29:03 <Stskeeps> johnx: did you see wazd's artwork btw?
Jan 11 15:29:08 <RST38h> lcuk: it can't
Jan 11 15:29:11 <lcuk> because a full 32bit opcode can do multiple step operations in one go because they are encoded within
Jan 11 15:29:18 <johnx> Stskeeps, that background? looks great doesn't it? :D
Jan 11 15:29:27 <Stskeeps> johnx: yeah, and logo
Jan 11 15:29:32 <Stskeeps> i put the background along with titan theme in
Jan 11 15:29:39 <lcuk> sure it can, go read on the full things which can be done with a single 32bit opcode
Jan 11 15:29:48 <RST38h> Thumb has less functionality per opcode, so if you are coding in assembly, you can get better mileage out of 32bit ARm usually
Jan 11 15:30:12 <lcuk> yeah rst, but standard compilers cannot easily use the full functionality well
Jan 11 15:30:22 <johnx> RST38h, "...but non thumb code ..."
Jan 11 15:30:40 <RST38h> johnx: ?
Jan 11 15:30:57 <johnx> RST38h, I think you guys are agreeing :)
Jan 11 15:31:10 <lcuk> johnx, 32bit opcode can do more than 16bit thumb.    "non thumb code" == 32bit mode
Jan 11 15:31:22 <RST38h> lcuk: 100% correct
Jan 11 15:31:28 <johnx> lcuk, right, got that. :)
Jan 11 15:31:58 <johnx> Stskeeps, native build dies too
Jan 11 15:32:03 <Stskeeps> johnx: huh
Jan 11 15:32:07 <RST38h> BTW, Nintendo recommends 32bit ARM when running code from SRAM but 16bit thumb when running code from 16bit cartridge ROM
Jan 11 15:32:16 <Stskeeps> johnx: native build dies on tablet too?!
Jan 11 15:32:31 <johnx> Stskeeps, the build worked. hildon-desktop dies
Jan 11 15:32:43 <johnx> Stskeeps, are you seeing a weird gconf error?
Jan 11 15:32:56 <Stskeeps> johnx: yeah, i saw that at one point, but when running as root that didn't show
Jan 11 15:33:34 <RST38h> johnx: Oh, I forgot one more thing:
Jan 11 15:34:11 <RST38h> johnx: Reading SDRAM sequentially is like 1 clock per read but latching a new address (when jumping for example) is 8 clocks or so
Jan 11 15:34:24 <Stskeeps> johnx: so what big changes have we made since hildon-desktop compile? gconf?
Jan 11 15:34:34 <RST38h> so in RISC architectures conditional execution often wins over short jumps
Jan 11 15:34:50 <johnx> Stskeeps, that seems to be the biggest one, doesn't it?
Jan 11 15:34:52 <Stskeeps> johnx: lemme just grab the .deb for the old version
Jan 11 15:35:51 <Stskeeps> johnx: or not, hm
Jan 11 15:36:00 * Stskeeps notes his backup rotation doesn't work
Jan 11 15:36:16 <Stskeeps> or at least not visibly
Jan 11 15:36:23 <Stskeeps> (backup works, but not rotation)
Jan 11 15:36:28 <johnx> eep
Jan 11 15:36:31 <gladiac> has someone a simple example for writing a deb file for maemo
Jan 11 15:39:23 <johnx> gladiac, there's some info here: http://maemo.org/maemo_training_material/maemo4.x/html/maemo_Application_Development/Chapter_07_Packaging_Applications.html
Jan 11 15:39:34 <johnx> and I'd be happy to try and answer questions if you have any
Jan 11 15:39:46 <johnx> emphasis on *try* :)
Jan 11 15:40:50 <johnx> Stskeeps, any thoughts on whether it might be in maemo-launcher?
Jan 11 15:41:13 <Stskeeps> johnx: no, i gdb'ed hildon-desktop.launch
Jan 11 15:41:15 <gladiac> I'm a rpm user, so I have to learn how things work with deb now
Jan 11 15:41:21 <Stskeeps> and left maemo-launcher out of the picture
Jan 11 15:41:47 <Stskeeps> johnx: what gconf version do we have?
Jan 11 15:42:14 <Stskeeps> nm
Jan 11 15:47:22 <disq> anybody have experience with DBusGProxy stuff? trying to listen for a signal, couldn't get it to work
Jan 11 15:48:34 <Stskeeps> johnx: maemo glib.. hmm: debian/patches/01-dbus-gproxy-crash-fix.patch: Refresh.
Jan 11 15:48:38 <Stskeeps> dbus glib that is
Jan 11 15:49:24 <johnx> so odd that it worked before...
Jan 11 15:50:13 <Stskeeps> looks like we safely can build libdbus-glib
Jan 11 15:50:15 <Stskeeps> it's up to date
Jan 11 15:50:35 <wjt> disq: could you pastebin your code?
Jan 11 15:50:53 <johnx> Stskeeps, want me to do a build?
Jan 11 15:50:55 <disq> sure
Jan 11 15:51:41 <Stskeeps> johnx: i'm already going at it
Jan 11 15:51:53 <johnx> ok
Jan 11 15:52:19 <disq> wjt: http://pastebin.ca/1305982
Jan 11 15:52:21 <johnx> ah, and I still have to make zenity do the right thing
Jan 11 15:53:41 <disq> wjt: details_received actually returns an array btw.
Jan 11 15:53:56 <wjt> disq: what goes wrong?
Jan 11 15:54:07 <disq> wjt: callback is not called
Jan 11 15:56:01 <disq> went looking for some examples, couldn't come up with any except the one in the maemo sdk ref
Jan 11 15:56:42 <disq> kmplayer sets up a filter to listen for signals but it's too costly for just one signal
Jan 11 15:56:45 <wjt> disq: so, you're adding the signal with the wrong type, and wondering why it doesn't work? :)
Jan 11 15:57:39 <disq> wjt: how am i supposed to add DBus.Array type as a gtype? GTYPE_POINTER etc fails
Jan 11 15:58:46 <wjt> disq: what's it an array of?
Jan 11 15:59:23 <disq> a key/value dict.
Jan 11 16:00:11 <wjt> is it a(sv), a{sv}, what?
Jan 11 16:01:17 <disq> i don't have the xml or the source, i'm going by dbus-monitor output. (gah pastebin so slow, hang on)
Jan 11 16:01:28 <wjt> you can call Introspect on the object and get the XML
Jan 11 16:03:22 <disq> I tried not adding the signal first, just connecting to it. got a warning.
Jan 11 16:03:49 <disq> I think if introspect would work I wouldn't get the warning but not sure
Jan 11 16:04:57 <wjt> introspection isn't synchronous
Jan 11 16:05:33 <disq> ah
Jan 11 16:06:06 <Jaffa> re
Jan 11 16:06:06 <wjt> but i can't figure out how you're supposed to know when it's happened
Jan 11 16:07:30 <wjt> Anyway. If it's an a(xy) (that is, a list of two-element structs) you can use dbus_g_type_get_collection ("GPtrArray", dbus_g_type_get_struct ("GValueArray", G_TYPE_x, G_TYPE_y, G_TYPE_INVALID));
Jan 11 16:08:03 <wjt> If it's an a{xy} (that is, a dict mapping x to y) you use dbus_g_type_get_map ("GHashTable", G_TYPE_x, G_TYPE_y);
Jan 11 16:11:41 <disq> ah, nice
Jan 11 16:11:43 <disq> thanks :)
Jan 11 16:13:36 <Stskeeps> johnx: building new dbus-glib
Jan 11 16:14:13 <johnx> pushed zenity :)
Jan 11 16:14:52 <Stskeeps> i just really hope that fixes it
Jan 11 16:15:12 <johnx> yeah
Jan 11 16:15:13 <disq> wjt: worked, thanks a lot (it was a hash table)
Jan 11 16:15:16 * johnx crosses his fingers
Jan 11 16:15:22 <disq> (well, turned out to be I mean)
Jan 11 16:16:07 <wjt> disq: great!
Jan 11 16:17:14 <wjt> disq: if you're feeling particularly adventurous you could run the introspect XML though telepathy-glib's binding generator to get nice wrappers around this stuff
Jan 11 16:17:49 <disq> I'm afraid I never feel adventurous when it comes to dbus :)
Jan 11 16:17:49 <wjt> Whenever I have to do this directly I have to go read some example code to figure out how to drive dbus_g_type_get_* :)
Jan 11 16:18:29 <disq> (introspect returned empty string btw, maybe I couldn't call it properly)
Jan 11 16:20:43 <disq> DBUS_TYPE_G_STRING_STRING_HASHTABLE that was what i was looking for btw. it's in dbus-glib.h and i totally missed it
Jan 11 16:21:46 <Stskeeps> johnx: it just really wonders me it first happened when we compiled with new headers.. maybe it's cos gconf2 is dbus based now
Jan 11 16:24:28 <johnx> well, I assume we'll know once that build finishes
Jan 11 16:25:22 <Stskeeps> i honestly think there's material enough to several research papers on open source projects in all the threads and discussions there's been on iTT..
Jan 11 16:26:53 <johnx> ah! I just remembered a project I was thinking of: Neuros has been doing open source for a while and they actually have a pretty active community forum I believe
Jan 11 16:27:01 <johnx> they also have bounties out for lots of projects
Jan 11 16:27:21 <Stskeeps> that's true
Jan 11 16:28:16 <Stskeeps> m¤"%"%"%
Jan 11 16:28:17 <johnx> also, thecus (makes ARM based NAS boxes) has been very friendly with the debian-arm guys, hence most of the debian-arm build boxes being thecus N2100s (or they were at some point)
Jan 11 16:30:17 * Stskeeps is getting really tired of autotools
Jan 11 16:38:59 <Stskeeps> johnx: can you grab the updated dbus-glib? built them manually
Jan 11 16:39:07 <Stskeeps> and test if it works
Jan 11 16:39:20 <johnx> sure, is it in the repo or somewhere else?
Jan 11 16:39:43 <Stskeeps> yeah
Jan 11 16:40:15 * Stskeeps wonders if nokia & community are doing soul searching or something..
Jan 11 16:41:15 <johnx> hmm? why do you say that?
Jan 11 16:41:30 <Stskeeps> just pondering on the intensity of the threads the last couple of days
Jan 11 16:41:42 <johnx> ah, I've been purposely avoiding them
Jan 11 16:42:00 <Stskeeps> hehe, i'm not going to participate either, since i actually do something :P
Jan 11 16:42:13 <johnx> half the community is dying for an omap3 and the other half is dying for updates to the n8x0
Jan 11 16:42:44 <mavhc> and one guy has cancer
Jan 11 16:43:53 <qwerty12> lardman, no. I've seen the build-depends on the package, thank you very much :P
Jan 11 16:44:54 <wjt> disq: that's not a GType
Jan 11 16:45:05 <wjt> disq: dbus_g_proxy_add_signal takes gtypes
Jan 11 16:46:27 <Stskeeps> johnx: we should so make first-boot-wizard and hildon-desktop-env beerware..
Jan 11 16:46:28 <Stskeeps> :P
Jan 11 16:46:52 <johnx> heh
Jan 11 16:47:02 <Stskeeps> just imagine summit 09 then ;)
Jan 11 16:47:04 <johnx> hmmm...beer. sounds like a good idea actually
Jan 11 16:47:18 <pupnik_> when i was 17....
Jan 11 16:47:26 <pupnik_> i had a very good beer...
Jan 11 16:47:57 <johnx> pupnik_, when I was 16 I started on horrible beer. Wasn't until I tried Japanese beer than I could stomach more than a bit at a time
Jan 11 16:47:58 <lardman|home> qwerty12: you can get rid of almost all of those
Jan 11 16:48:41 <qwerty12> lardman|home, sounds good... Does it need vfp?
Jan 11 16:48:51 <pupnik_> "It Was a Very Good Year" is a song composed by Ervin Drake in 1961 and subsequently made famous by Frank Sinatra.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Was_a_Very_Good_Year
Jan 11 16:48:58 <lardman|home> qwerty12: doens't need it, but ideally yes
Jan 11 16:49:09 <Stskeeps> johnx: on the other hand, sake is something of the worst i've ever tasted in my life :P
Jan 11 16:49:19 <qwerty12> lardman|home, cool, it's no problem, just wondering...
Jan 11 16:49:27 <johnx> Stskeeps, try compari. ten times worse than sake.
Jan 11 16:49:30 <Stskeeps> and i've had my share of cheap vodkas
Jan 11 16:49:47 <johnx> and I've had my share of cheap everclear
Jan 11 16:50:14 <qwerty12> lardman|home, which version? 1:2.1.73-13, octave2.1, octave3.0 or octave3.1?
Jan 11 16:50:21 <lardman|home> qwerty12: http://packages.debian.org/lenny/octave3.0, of this lot you can remove blas, libglpk0, libhdf5*, liblapack3gf, libpcre3, libqhull5, libsuitesparse-3.1.0, libunwind7
Jan 11 16:50:38 <lardman|home> basically the only deps you need to install are ncurses and readline
Jan 11 16:50:39 <qwerty12> ok
Jan 11 16:50:47 <johnx> Stskeeps, first test with the mer libdbus-glib-1-2 installed, hildon-desktop dies the same way
Jan 11 16:50:54 <lardman|home> those other bits are accelerators, but not necessary in the first instance
Jan 11 16:50:56 <Stskeeps> johnx: bollocks
Jan 11 16:50:58 <johnx> I'm doing an apt-get upgrade just for fun
Jan 11 16:51:06 <b-man> it looks like my ubuntu jaunty install is starting to die, first the keyboard, then gnome-pannel, then naiutills, now it is mostly booting into a wallpaper with metacity. :p Time to start the fun 6+ hour install prosess all over again :)
Jan 11 16:51:08 <johnx> but holding hildon-desktop-env
Jan 11 16:51:19 * lardman|home is not sure about pcre3, but certainly didn't install it himself
Jan 11 16:51:28 <Stskeeps> b-man: wonder why we do tar.gz's? :P
Jan 11 16:51:37 <b-man> hehe
Jan 11 16:52:07 <Stskeeps> johnx: is gconfd really supposed to be run as a user?
Jan 11 16:52:26 <johnx> it is in desktop linux, /me confirms
Jan 11 16:52:27 <Stskeeps> k
Jan 11 16:52:38 <johnx> yes, user
Jan 11 16:52:53 <johnx> from /etc/X11/Xsesion.d/gconf or similar (depends on distro)
Jan 11 16:54:06 <lardman|home> qwerty12: hmm, might need f2c as well though to compile it...
Jan 11 16:54:22 <lardman|home> qwerty12: I can't remember and I can't seem to find the build dir either, annoying that
Jan 11 16:54:36 <qwerty12> I guess I'll find out :)
Jan 11 16:55:00 <lardman|home> well give me a shout if you have troubles and I'll try to remember/compile it myself and send you the control file so you can submit it
Jan 11 16:55:27 <qwerty12> Sure, I'll leave it up to you to test as I don't know the first thing about octave ;)
Jan 11 16:55:31 <Stskeeps> johnx: try remove all applets from the hildon statusbar (confs) and see if that helps
Jan 11 16:55:49 <johnx> removed adv backlight
Jan 11 16:55:51 <lardman|home> qwerty12: well type "octave" on the command line and if it doesn't crash you're all good
Jan 11 16:55:59 <johnx> will remove the CPU applet once apt-get upgrade is complete
Jan 11 16:56:01 <Stskeeps> k
Jan 11 16:56:09 <qwerty12> lardman|home, sounds foolproof :)
Jan 11 16:56:56 <qwerty12> lardman|home, you sure it doesn't need the gfortran package?
Jan 11 16:57:19 <lardman|home> not if you use f2c
Jan 11 16:57:28 <qwerty12> skeen
Jan 11 16:57:33 <lardman|home> or at least I don't think so, if you use f2c ;)
Jan 11 16:58:03 <lardman|home> ah, I'll compile it, hang on a bit
Jan 11 16:58:12 <lardman|home> I should have f2c installed already
Jan 11 16:58:41 <lardman|home> ~lart lardman for losing his octave build dir
Jan 11 16:58:41 * infobot blasts lardman to oblivion with a kamehameha wave for losing his octave build dir
Jan 11 16:59:18 <b1ackdeath> dose the home tools program have a config file that i can change so i can use it to monitor my ip from my usb lan adapter?
Jan 11 17:00:04 <qwerty12> It's python, edit it yourself. And no, I do not know what file to edit.
Jan 11 17:00:09 <lardman|home> qwerty12: I'll give 3.1 a go, might as well go as new as possible :)
Jan 11 17:00:16 <qwerty12> lardman|home, cool :)
Jan 11 17:00:32 * lardman|home thinks that was what he compiled last time
Jan 11 17:01:47 <qwerty12> lardman|home, if you compiled octave3.0_3.0.1-6lenny1.dsc, then I'm pretty sure that you didn't try to package it...
Jan 11 17:02:05 <lardman|home> no, it didn't have lenny in the name
Jan 11 17:02:38 <lardman|home> what's the problem?
Jan 11 17:02:39 <qwerty12> I have a feeling that you compiled one of the old ones
Jan 11 17:03:20 <qwerty12> A lot of problems that suggest that it will need a lot more than just packages removed from the build depends.
Jan 11 17:03:28 <lardman|home> well it was about 3 months ag
Jan 11 17:03:31 <lardman|home> ago
Jan 11 17:04:09 * Stskeeps ponders if stack protector works on arm
Jan 11 17:04:34 <lardman|home> they sure do like deps in Debian don't they!
Jan 11 17:05:15 <lardman|home> hmm, would be good to get blas tuned for the hw
Jan 11 17:05:27 <lardman|home> or is that atlas, hmm?
Jan 11 17:10:33 <lcuk> evening lardman|home \o
Jan 11 17:10:40 <qwerty12> lardman|home, got f2c installed but octave fails to see if even if I ./configure F77=f2c
Jan 11 17:12:12 <lardman|home> hmm
Jan 11 17:12:16 <lardman|home> hey lcuk
Jan 11 17:13:50 <lardman|home> hmm, needs slice too
Jan 11 17:13:51 <Stskeeps> johnx: how long are you planning to stay here today btw?
Jan 11 17:14:41 <johnx> I can stay up a little later if you want me to test things, but otherwise I'll probably go to bed soonish
Jan 11 17:15:21 <Stskeeps> nah, it's fine, trying to build a fstack-protector version, but seems like our toolchain is one that doesn't have it working
Jan 11 17:15:36 <lcuk> johnx, you never sleep anyway - you just go and rest in your borg cabinet
Jan 11 17:15:45 <johnx> I get different output with the different versions of hildon-desktop...
Jan 11 17:16:15 <Stskeeps> yeah, points to some kind of stack / memory problem
Jan 11 17:16:16 <lardman|home> qwerty12: ok, I take it back, it was a pita to setup
Jan 11 17:16:18 <johnx> lcuk, nah, I just photosynthesize in the light of CCFLs
Jan 11 17:16:37 <qwerty12> lardman|home, I saw that :). Which is why I rm -rf'ed it before :)
Jan 11 17:16:42 <lardman|home> qwerty12: it needs slice, which needs some binary perl whatsit
Jan 11 17:17:14 <qwerty12> Meh, I'm not against packaging it myself but I can't even get it to compile straight up then it can piss off
Jan 11 17:17:14 <johnx> Stskeeps, what changed in the new hildon-desktop? is it just a rebuild?
Jan 11 17:17:19 <lardman|home> qwerty12: I did get all the deps built and working a while back, but it must have been one of the older scratchbox installs (which has since been rm -rf'd)
Jan 11 17:17:26 <qwerty12> heh :/
Jan 11 17:17:41 <lardman|home> I'll add it to my list of things to do, near the bottom
Jan 11 17:18:03 <Stskeeps> johnx: i had composite on before and now not (the one in repo)
Jan 11 17:18:08 <Stskeeps> and ..
Jan 11 17:18:16 <Stskeeps> no, that was it
Jan 11 17:18:37 <ciroip> yo people
Jan 11 17:23:15 <Stskeeps> johnx: only other possibility i could see was to upgrade glib
Jan 11 17:27:21 * Stskeeps doesn't exactly understand why it's crashing :)
Jan 11 17:28:29 * konttori likes how palm pre looks like: http://i.gizmodo.com/5126752/palm-pre-full-video-tours
Jan 11 17:30:53 <konttori> browser looks really nice
Jan 11 17:31:39 <Stskeeps> has to if it's a "WebOS" :P
Jan 11 17:31:59 <johnx> Stskeeps, do you know the last build that worked?
Jan 11 17:32:31 <johnx> konttori, played with the newer webkit builds on the n8x0?
Jan 11 17:32:50 <doc|home> is canola broken? It's not seeing audio files for me when I set it up to do so
Jan 11 17:33:08 <johnx> doc|home, do you have beta9 or beta10?
Jan 11 17:33:26 <doc|home> johnx: erm, no idea, one sec
Jan 11 17:33:53 <Stskeeps> johnx: mer10
Jan 11 17:34:00 <Stskeeps> johnx: https://code.launchpad.net/~mer-committers/m-r/hildon-desktop
Jan 11 17:34:01 <doc|home> johnx: beta9
Jan 11 17:34:14 <johnx> doc|home, ok good start :)
Jan 11 17:34:25 <johnx> Stskeeps, yeah, have that working on my zaurus
Jan 11 17:35:42 <doc|home> johnx: any idea what else it might be?
Jan 11 17:36:49 <johnx> doc|home, so you add the folder with your music in it, then click "update all", right?
Jan 11 17:37:14 <doc|home> johnx: two media cards, yep
Jan 11 17:40:44 <Meizirkki> Ubuntus UME-team seems to be going to port many maemo-things too https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/AppFramework
Jan 11 17:41:30 <Stskeeps> Meizirkki: think its old though
Jan 11 17:41:48 <Meizirkki> they haven't done much...
Jan 11 17:43:10 * Jaffa was wondering about UME/Moblin's email client
Jan 11 17:44:05 <johnx> weren't they going for hildonized claws or somesuch?
Jan 11 17:44:11 <Stskeeps> i would go for hildonized claws.
Jan 11 17:45:12 <johnx> dunno how far they got though
Jan 11 17:45:13 <konttori> So, are the new webkit versions much better then?
Jan 11 17:45:37 <konttori> should I install the browser replacement or tear?
Jan 11 17:45:56 <johnx> konttori, try both, but I think the browser replacement version takes up less space
Jan 11 17:47:41 <doc|home> anyone got any other suggestions for media players? I don't like kagu all that much
Jan 11 17:47:41 <Meizirkki> i prefer tear (using webkit-eal)
Jan 11 17:47:49 <Meizirkki> mediabox?
Jan 11 17:47:57 * doc|home looks
Jan 11 17:49:29 <konttori> where are the latest packages?
Jan 11 17:51:15 <konttori> here? http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24293
Jan 11 17:55:01 <lardman|home> what version of GTK+ do we use?
Jan 11 17:55:11 <Stskeeps> 2.12 i think
Jan 11 17:55:15 <Stskeeps> or at least, fremantle does
Jan 11 17:55:17 <lardman|home> hmm, I thought so
Jan 11 17:55:20 <lardman|home> oh
Jan 11 17:55:37 <Stskeeps> diablo is 2.1
Jan 11 17:55:37 <lardman|home> hmm, I'll have to look for a different call then (only added in 2.14)
Jan 11 17:55:38 <Stskeeps> 2.10
Jan 11 17:56:57 <Meizirkki> konttori, yes
Jan 11 17:57:20 <lardman|home> Stskeeps: thanks
Jan 11 17:57:56 <Meizirkki> konttori: but bundyos webkit does not render correctly sometimes, so i have symlink from the "default browser webkit" libraries...
Jan 11 18:01:34 <lardman|home> do gtk dialogs come with a built-in vbox?
Jan 11 18:01:50 <AstralStorm> no
Jan 11 18:02:28 <lardman|home> ok, how does one add something to one may I ask?
Jan 11 18:02:36 <lardman|home> the dialog that is
Jan 11 18:02:38 <AstralStorm> a standard GtkWindow?
Jan 11 18:02:48 <AstralStorm> or what do you want to add to?
Jan 11 18:03:09 <lardman|home> gtk_dialog
Jan 11 18:03:14 <lardman|home> I want to add some widgets to one
Jan 11 18:03:22 <AstralStorm> let me check
Jan 11 18:03:41 <lardman|home> I was just looking at this code here: http://cr.yp.to/2004-494/gaim/0.81-src/gtknotify.c
Jan 11 18:03:51 <wjt> Look at GtkDialog in devhelp
Jan 11 18:03:53 <AstralStorm> http://www.pygtk.org/docs/pygtk/class-gtkdialog.html
Jan 11 18:03:54 <wjt> the first member is a vbox
Jan 11 18:03:57 <AstralStorm> it does have a vbox
Jan 11 18:04:00 <wjt> vbox is a GtkVBox - the main part of the dialog box.
Jan 11 18:04:02 <wjt> action_area is a GtkHButtonBox packed below the dividing GtkHSeparator in the dialog. It is treated exactly the same as any other GtkHButtonBox.
Jan 11 18:04:05 <AstralStorm> I thought you meant something other
Jan 11 18:04:17 <lardman|home> AstralStorm, wjt: thanks
Jan 11 18:05:08 <lardman|home> wjt: can I install an older version of the gtk+ devhelp files?
Jan 11 18:05:29 <lardman|home> am on 2.12.9 atm, but could do with 2.10.x
Jan 11 18:05:37 <wjt> You probably can, but new stuff should have Since: annotations so you can tell whether it'll exist in 2.10
Jan 11 18:05:46 <lardman|home> ah, ok, good plan
Jan 11 18:05:57 <lardman|home> cheers
Jan 11 18:06:10 <wjt> i think you could get a gtk 2.10 tarball, build the docs, and shove them into ~/.local/share...
Jan 11 18:06:25 <wjt> but then you'd have two hits for every Gtk symbol when you search in devhelp and on that path lies madness
Jan 11 18:06:34 <lardman|home> true :)
Jan 11 18:19:00 <johnx> slow drive is slow :/
Jan 11 18:19:40 <AstralStorm> and fast drives are fast
Jan 11 18:19:43 <AstralStorm> get a fast one
Jan 11 18:19:51 <AstralStorm> or just a bunch of flash chips ;P
Jan 11 18:20:13 <johnx> wife has a slow external 1.8" USB drive. need to get music off of it
Jan 11 18:20:27 <johnx> in this case a faster drive now wouldn't help :P
Jan 11 18:21:26 <AstralStorm> use a hammer
Jan 11 18:21:42 <AstralStorm> that should be quicker
Jan 11 18:21:43 <AstralStorm> :)
Jan 11 18:21:45 <johnx> "hur. I got your music out of duh drive."
Jan 11 18:22:31 <Stskeeps> johnx: i should technically be able to replicate this on x86 shouldn't i?
Jan 11 18:22:41 <Stskeeps> i mean, we established it's not the toolchain
Jan 11 18:23:30 <johnx> well, it's worth a quick build I would think if you have an x86 test system lying around
Jan 11 18:23:42 <Stskeeps> mm, chroot + xvfb
Jan 11 18:23:48 <johnx> did you ever try using hildon-desktop the way that diablo-sdk does?
Jan 11 18:23:48 <Stskeeps> and i always build for x86 too :P
Jan 11 18:26:38 <Stskeeps> interesting, it does crash
Jan 11 18:27:32 <johnx> yay!
Jan 11 18:27:51 <Stskeeps> yup, same place, too
Jan 11 18:29:54 <Stskeeps> i knew it would be a benefit to compile for x86 sometime too ;)
Jan 11 18:31:00 <Stskeeps> because now i can run valgrind!
Jan 11 18:31:03 <AstralStorm> haha
Jan 11 18:31:13 <AstralStorm> and see there are 1024+ errors?
Jan 11 18:31:26 <johnx> or that all 4 of the test machines have bad RAM
Jan 11 18:31:48 <AstralStorm> memtest86 should exclude that possibility
Jan 11 18:31:59 <AstralStorm> and then, the crash wouldn't be reproducible so easily
Jan 11 18:33:25 <johnx> AstralStorm, I know, just figure it would be just about our luck :)
Jan 11 18:42:29 <ds3> hmmm
Jan 11 18:44:00 <disq> got an autobuilder problem, i have multiple dirs under "src" and libtool won't work probably because of that (no such file or directory)
Jan 11 18:56:40 * johnx sleeps
Jan 11 18:59:00 <Stskeeps> nini
Jan 11 19:12:27 <beachsurfin> why would maemo use gnome + qt and not qt+kde?
Jan 11 19:13:34 <qwerty12_N800> Maemo doesn't use gnome
Jan 11 19:13:48 <Stskeeps> beachsurfin: you probably mean gtk + qt
Jan 11 19:20:32 <beachsurfin> oh
Jan 11 19:20:42 <beachsurfin> i saw the gnome icon so i figured..
Jan 11 19:21:11 <beachsurfin> "Maemo platform has been developed by Nokia in collaboration with many open source projects such as the Linux kernel, Debian, GNOME, and many more."
Jan 11 19:22:32 <beachsurfin> i see, it was made sure that maemo would work fine with these project
Jan 11 19:23:05 <beachsurfin> i suppose the kde connection is through qt
Jan 11 19:23:19 <Stskeeps> which in turn is made by trolltech, which is owned by nokia ;)
Jan 11 19:25:39 <wazd> Stskeeps: so, should I change something in Mer's logo or it's fine now?)
Jan 11 19:26:08 <Stskeeps> wazd: what was the last url?
Jan 11 19:26:15 <Stskeeps> i've been a bit absent today :) preparing for exam
Jan 11 19:26:38 <wazd> http://s45.radikal.ru/i108/0901/ad/7d0a5e67d3db.jpg
Jan 11 19:27:07 <Stskeeps> yeah, it's cool :)
Jan 11 19:28:24 <RST38h> moo all, again
Jan 11 19:29:01 <Stskeeps> wazd: i don't suppose you have a 1600x1200 version of it too?
Jan 11 19:30:11 <wazd> I have 1920x1200 instead
Jan 11 19:30:16 <Stskeeps> just as good ;)
Jan 11 19:34:14 <wazd> http://s47.radikal.ru/i115/0901/96/eccd58abaa45.jpg
Jan 11 19:35:12 <Stskeeps> thanks!
Jan 11 19:35:39 <wazd> ~poke GeneralAntilles
Jan 11 19:35:40 * infobot cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind GeneralAntilles, pokes GeneralAntilles repeatedly, hilarity ensues.
Jan 11 20:38:47 <`Mace> Stskeeps ?
Jan 11 20:38:59 <`Mace> when i get the chance some time this week. i'm going to work on putting together a dedicated box for you
Jan 11 20:39:10 <`Mace> instead of timeslicing it in esx ;)
Jan 11 20:39:40 <`Mace> i'll keep them both going so you can move your stuff over when you get the chance.. but after that i'm going to wipe the VM
Jan 11 20:44:14 <Stskeeps> `Mace: already - don't spend too much time on it
Jan 11 20:46:58 <Shadow___X> hello everybody
Jan 11 20:47:10 <Shadow___X> how do you access webhttrack
Jan 11 20:50:06 <lcuk> Stskeeps, if i got you the cleaned up version of liqbase what would you need to do to test it on your beagle? does it need recompilation and all that
Jan 11 20:50:24 <Stskeeps> lcuk: think i need to connect up my dvi screen really
Jan 11 20:50:34 <Stskeeps> and get a proper OS on it
Jan 11 20:50:48 <lcuk> ok, your work beagle
Jan 11 20:50:58 <Stskeeps> yeah, my work beagle :P
Jan 11 20:51:05 <Stskeeps> don't own one privately
Jan 11 20:51:08 <lcuk> heh lol, what graphics are on it now?
Jan 11 20:51:22 <Stskeeps> serial console..
Jan 11 20:51:22 <Stskeeps> :P
Jan 11 20:51:48 <lcuk> phew, thought you were gonna say something archaic like semaphore or something
Jan 11 20:52:00 <Stskeeps> serial console is pretty far out, too ;)
Jan 11 20:52:15 <lcuk> altair are gonna be worried your device will overtake them soon ;)
Jan 11 20:52:33 <lcuk> all that power and no real way to show it
Jan 11 20:55:01 <Stskeeps> hm
Jan 11 20:55:03 <Stskeeps> that's funny..
Jan 11 20:57:09 <lcuk> Stskeeps, does it have the outputs for dvi?
Jan 11 20:57:28 <lcuk> or are they another solder job (or was that a one off out there thing for odd combinations)
Jan 11 20:58:11 <Stskeeps> it has hdmi
Jan 11 20:59:07 <lcuk> whats with all the serial stuff then?    i dont think my computer even has a standard serial any more
Jan 11 20:59:54 <Stskeeps> cos you need to flash a kernel first, for instance :)
Jan 11 21:06:16 <TheFatal> can any1 tell me the others operating system for the N810 ??
Jan 11 21:06:59 <Stskeeps> gentoo, ubuntu, mer, nitdroid.. debian
Jan 11 21:07:10 <RST38h> WinMobile...
Jan 11 21:07:15 <RST38h> ;)
Jan 11 21:07:35 <lcuk> winmobile? no way, i thought it had the full desktop windows 95 experience
Jan 11 21:08:09 <RST38h> Well, WinMobile has command.com!
Jan 11 21:08:39 <TheFatal> but there is a wikipedia page who say all o.s.
Jan 11 21:08:45 <TheFatal> can any1 know it ?
Jan 11 21:08:54 <RST38h> Google?
Jan 11 21:09:11 * suihkulokki loaded command.com to the browser before going back to the memory lane
Jan 11 21:09:41 <TheFatal> i search, but i can not find it... ¬¬
Jan 11 21:11:27 <Stskeeps> TheFatal: internettablettalk.com/forums
Jan 11 21:11:32 <Stskeeps> plenty of posts on other things :P
Jan 11 21:13:08 <Stskeeps> lcuk: what has caused me and johnx horrors for two days: http://rafb.net/p/R8yLu842.html
Jan 11 21:13:32 <Stskeeps> very very portable hack
Jan 11 21:13:38 <Stskeeps> (it modifies a stub)
Jan 11 21:13:51 <TheFatal>  sed 's/dbus_g_proxy_begin_call/dbus_g_proxy_begin_call_with_timeout/' |\         sed 's/g_free, /g_free, 120000, /' \         > hildon-background-manager.h
Jan 11 21:13:52 <TheFatal> xD
Jan 11 21:14:17 <Stskeeps> and life just isn't that easy in dbus-glib 0.78
Jan 11 21:14:27 <lcuk> Stskeeps, you and john have added that hack, or thats included and causing problems
Jan 11 21:15:07 <lcuk> sed is shell search replace thingy isnt it
Jan 11 21:15:10 <Stskeeps> others
Jan 11 21:15:21 <Stskeeps> it should actually be _async_data_free instead
Jan 11 21:17:44 * Stskeeps wonders if he should be bothered opening a bug for that 
Jan 11 21:19:20 <lcuk> Stskeeps, ok, i see its in the makefile - so thats a late added (and probably much overlooked) very very strange way to fix source
Jan 11 21:19:38 <Stskeeps> yes, normally you fix the stub tool
Jan 11 21:22:59 <Stskeeps> and now it starts joyfully
Jan 11 21:24:45 * RST38h has salvaged the sourcecode for his TI85 emulator
Jan 11 21:24:51 <RST38h> anyone interested?
Jan 11 21:24:53 <Stskeeps> always
Jan 11 21:25:07 <Stskeeps> i bought a TI83 plus recently.. and i have used it exactly once.
Jan 11 21:27:59 <RST38h> TI85 is a different animal, it is Z80 based
Jan 11 21:28:02 <TheFatal> any1 test ubuntu mobile on n810 ?
Jan 11 21:28:25 <Stskeeps> we have something better :P
Jan 11 21:28:33 <TheFatal> xD
Jan 11 21:28:37 <TheFatal> but only test it
Jan 11 21:29:19 <lcuk> i want a minimal super OS On my big tablet
Jan 11 21:29:35 <TheFatal> [quote] we have something better :P [/quote] xD  maemo o debian ?
Jan 11 21:29:35 * Stskeeps passes lcuk mer 
Jan 11 21:29:36 * lcuk likes the idea of 39.8GB free ;)
Jan 11 21:29:42 <aquatix> RST38h: interesting
Jan 11 21:30:01 <aquatix> lcuk: whuh? what did i miss?
Jan 11 21:30:05 <lcuk> Stskeeps, :) i know, i cant wait
Jan 11 21:30:19 <aquatix> oh, your big tablet
Jan 11 21:30:26 <lcuk> well, i can
Jan 11 21:30:28 <aquatix> i thought that was sarcasm
Jan 11 21:30:29 <lcuk> yeah aquatix
Jan 11 21:30:48 <aquatix> you have another tablet? heretic!
Jan 11 21:31:02 <lcuk> my nokia found it daddy :)
Jan 11 21:31:13 <GeneralAntilles> Hehe, the EIPI interview comments finally devolved into ad hominem.
Jan 11 21:31:17 <RST38h> lcuk: do they.... like...you know?
Jan 11 21:31:27 <lcuk> daddy stays at home wearing its slipper whilst the young nokia goes out into the big wide world :)
Jan 11 21:31:31 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: do they mention nazis yet?
Jan 11 21:31:43 <lcuk> of course not, its father and son
Jan 11 21:31:47 <GeneralAntilles> aquatix, not yet.
Jan 11 21:31:54 <aquatix> lcuk: did he have The Talk with his son yet?
Jan 11 21:32:07 <iskaja1> any idea what i can usefull do with my old N770
Jan 11 21:32:18 <lcuk> yes, hes been told not to connect with any naked x86 devices
Jan 11 21:32:25 <aquatix> lcuk: ah, good
Jan 11 21:32:31 <aquatix> iskaja1: build it in a car?
Jan 11 21:32:35 <lcuk> iskaja1, send it me so i can get liqbase running on it
Jan 11 21:32:41 <aquatix> or that
Jan 11 21:32:52 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: i think the 'napoleon dynamite' comparison is a whole new aspect to internet discussions
Jan 11 21:33:07 <lcuk> i would love to *know* whether it could work nicely
Jan 11 21:33:18 <Stskeeps> iskaja1: plenty of things
Jan 11 21:33:19 <iskaja1> what shall it do in the car?
Jan 11 21:33:29 <Stskeeps> iskaja1: nitdroid or mer is coming to it :P
Jan 11 21:34:40 <Proteous> n770s should be locked away in a vault to ward of the WSOD
Jan 11 21:34:48 <Proteous> s/of/off/
Jan 11 21:34:48 <infobot> Proteous meant: n770s should be locked away in a vault to ward off the WSOD
Jan 11 21:35:32 <aquatix> Proteous: and the 770's?
Jan 11 21:35:47 <GeneralAntilles> aquatix, but maybe if I show them my swastisocks it'll speed things along. http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/swastisocks.jpg :roll:
Jan 11 21:36:25 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: okayyy...
Jan 11 21:36:58 <GeneralAntilles> aquatix, what, don't see the resemblance? :P
Jan 11 21:36:59 <Stskeeps> windows logo in monochrome or a swastika, who knows
Jan 11 21:37:00 <Stskeeps> :P
Jan 11 21:37:10 <GeneralAntilles> (http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/swastisocks.jpg)
Jan 11 21:37:24 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: it's a bit disturbing :)
Jan 11 21:37:28 <GeneralAntilles> Their logo, apparently, turns into a swastika on irregular socks.
Jan 11 21:37:32 <lcuk> :S
Jan 11 21:37:53 <GeneralAntilles> Which is probably why I got 6 pairs for $2.99.
Jan 11 21:37:57 <RST38h> General: How cute!
Jan 11 21:38:05 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: `their' logo?
Jan 11 21:38:17 <GeneralAntilles> http://www.columbia.com/
Jan 11 21:38:29 <GeneralAntilles> Meant to paste that in the parentheses.
Jan 11 21:39:07 <aquatix> ah
Jan 11 21:39:36 <aquatix> teehee
Jan 11 21:39:41 <RST38h> General: You should brandish weaponry as well, just the socks won't do the job
Jan 11 21:40:13 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, I've got a K98 fairly close at hand, but that might be a little over the top. ;)
Jan 11 21:40:43 <RST38h> just the right thing
Jan 11 21:40:44 <lcuk> context would be better before posting in future gan ;)
Jan 11 21:41:09 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, do they not sell Columbia in the EU?
Jan 11 21:41:52 <RST38h> They do, but now, when you revealed the terrible truth, .DE is risking to have Columbia stuff outlawed
Jan 11 21:42:08 <GeneralAntilles> Hehe
Jan 11 21:42:09 <lcuk> wouldnt know, socks are socks
Jan 11 21:42:47 <lcuk> ill ask my mum if she knows (cos she still buys my socks)   *joking :|*
Jan 11 21:43:38 <lcuk> why does the new google favicon remind me of office 97
Jan 11 21:44:40 <Shadow___X> hello everyone i am having issues setting up or trying to remove portmap
Jan 11 21:45:21 <Shadow___X> it keeps referring to 2 files
Jan 11 21:45:51 <Shadow___X> /etc/rcS.d/S43portmap
Jan 11 21:45:56 <Shadow___X> and S18portmap
Jan 11 21:46:03 <pcfe> does anybody know where xchat on maemo looks for SSl certs? (I use an IRC proxy over SSL that has it's own cert signed by my own CA, so I want to import that CA cert so that xchat finds it, the system wide cert import does not seem to be used by xchat)
Jan 11 21:46:49 <wazd> General: when would tuesday web-site meeting be?)
Jan 11 21:46:51 <Stskeeps> think xchat may have its own settings for this, but i seem to recall xchat is .. interesting, in that aspect
Jan 11 21:47:16 <qwerty12_N800> pcfe, I would assume in the same place it looks for them on a computer
Jan 11 21:47:35 <qwerty12_N800> Maemo version does nothing special regarding certs
Jan 11 21:48:06 <GeneralAntilles> I like how nobody can get away from Nokia in that community cohesion thread.
Jan 11 21:48:11 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, you ruined it. :P
Jan 11 21:48:41 <Shadow___X> anyone of how to fix portmap
Jan 11 21:48:41 <Shadow___X> ?
Jan 11 21:48:43 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, i apologised *nervous laugh*
Jan 11 21:49:07 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: yet there are coming good points up on how to actually do a community
Jan 11 21:49:13 <pcfe> qwerty12_N800: OK, if it does notihing maemo specific then I'll just cat my CA cert to the end of /etc/pki/tls/certs/c
Jan 11 21:49:21 <lcuk> the problem with the cohesion is that (a) nokia have said we will have fremantle.  Not that we will take part in its building, that they are doing it and it will be released
Jan 11 21:49:21 <Stskeeps> it's difficult to contribute "to maemo" as maemo is 1000 different projects :P
Jan 11 21:49:44 <lcuk> i would love to get liqbase into a stable enough state to start offering little modules to interested parties
Jan 11 21:50:10 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, the discussion isn't about Nokia or any Nokia projects.
Jan 11 21:50:25 <lcuk> no, its about what we do whilst nokia works on their fremantle masterpiece
Jan 11 21:50:46 <Stskeeps> what does 'cohesion' mean anyway?
Jan 11 21:50:47 <Stskeeps> :P
Jan 11 21:50:55 <lcuk> lets make the thread sticky
Jan 11 21:51:11 <RST38h> it is about abandoning the developers community with Diablo and telling that Nokia does not really care about diablo any more
Jan 11 21:51:24 <Stskeeps> i don't really blame them, though
Jan 11 21:51:33 <RST38h> And the stuff Nokia cares about is outside of developers reach for now
Jan 11 21:51:35 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, Fremantle alphas will be here soon.
Jan 11 21:51:35 <lcuk> but whats replaced it
Jan 11 21:51:50 <RST38h> No, they have a business strategy and that strategy is to sell more devices, newer devices
Jan 11 21:51:52 <lcuk> yes, and so will liqbase alphas
Jan 11 21:52:11 <RST38h> Unfortunately, outside development does not yet align with this strategy
Jan 11 21:52:16 <lcuk> ill have a core widget that will run nice and touchably on this and next device, ill need to build apps just like nokia
Jan 11 21:52:21 <Jaffa> RST38h: And they know that a vibrant development community is part of that
Jan 11 21:52:22 <lcuk> but the one thing im doing is here in the community
Jan 11 21:53:03 <Jaffa> RXsT38h: It does. Supporting devices with orders of magnitude less power doesn't align with releasing the best h/w and s/w they can
Jan 11 21:53:21 <Jaffa> s/RXst38h/RST38h
Jan 11 21:53:49 <RST38h> Jaffa: Right now it does not, as evidenced by us all stuck with Diablo
Jan 11 21:54:30 <RST38h> Jaffa: If it did, Nokia would invest into maintaining some interest in Diablo until Fremantle is ready and maybe even releasing backported feature updates
Jan 11 21:54:32 <Stskeeps> if nokia gets off their asses with some things, soon we are able to make our own images, both diablo and mer :P
Jan 11 21:54:40 <RST38h> Jaffa: This is what Microsoft is doing BTW
Jan 11 21:55:37 <Stskeeps> they haven't actually removed the stuff to support old HW, in source, honestly
Jan 11 21:55:44 <Stskeeps> mostly it's about replacing some packages
Jan 11 21:56:01 <lcuk> no, but if the UI is being built with clutter you can be damned sure it wont be used
Jan 11 21:56:22 <Stskeeps> lcuk: window manager, hildon-desktop, and such, yes, but apps are still hildon
Jan 11 21:56:22 <Stskeeps> :P
Jan 11 21:56:35 <Stskeeps> and we -have- a fremantle diablo ui hildon-desktop
Jan 11 21:56:35 <Stskeeps> :P
Jan 11 21:56:38 <lcuk> so it will flicker backwards and forwards between old style and new?
Jan 11 21:56:42 <RST38h> I hope the original hildon desktop will still be around :)
Jan 11 21:56:45 <Stskeeps> theming
Jan 11 21:57:00 <lcuk> screen flicker - opengl context vs x11 standard
Jan 11 21:57:24 <Shadow___X> dpkg --configure -a does not fix the portmap issue
Jan 11 21:57:38 <lcuk> clutter can exist within a widget - i believe offscreen GTK rendering and shoving to an ogl surface isnt optimal
Jan 11 21:58:17 <wazd> Sorry to interupt you, but when the web-site meeting would be?) I'd like to participate :)
Jan 11 21:58:40 <Jaffa> wazd: 1400 UTC tomorrow, IIRC
Jan 11 21:58:55 <wazd> Jaffa: thanks a lot )
Jan 11 21:59:02 <lcuk> of course, if nokia dont use clutter and stick with gtk for now (as yerga shows is possible with the touchable gtk widgets) that will be different again
Jan 11 21:59:30 <lcuk> less interuption to existing apps and fits with an evolution rather than a revolution
Jan 11 21:59:36 * Jaffa would check, but webkit-eal's crashed replying to the "fun" EIPI blog post, trying to point out the nature of a representative democracy
Jan 11 22:00:21 <Jaffa> RST38h: you want the moon on a stick
Jan 11 22:00:30 * Jaffa would check, but webkit-eal's crashed replying to the "fun" EIPI blog post, trying to point out the nature of a representative democracy
Jan 11 22:00:52 <lcuk> if i were on slashdot now i would shout: DUPE!
Jan 11 22:01:02 <lcuk> (or first post!)
Jan 11 22:01:15 * Jaffa thought he''d pressed enter, but it's not showing up
Jan 11 22:01:27 <GeneralAntilles> wazd, Tuesday January 13th @ 1400 UTC
Jan 11 22:01:30 <RST38h> Jaffa: As I said a few days ago, I do not want ot expect anything at all. Simply observing stuff.
Jan 11 22:02:01 <Stskeeps> mm, sliders are much nicer in fremantle widgets
Jan 11 22:02:15 * lcuk rants in #liqbase
Jan 11 22:02:38 <Shadow___X> i have a n810 running 43.7 i am trying to install wizard mounter and when i try to install it portmap gives me issues
Jan 11 22:04:35 <wazd> UTC time is GMT+?
Jan 11 22:04:55 <wazd> Too tired to search(
Jan 11 22:05:05 <Stskeeps> UTC ~= GMT
Jan 11 22:05:06 <Stskeeps> :P
Jan 11 22:05:09 <mavhc> utc is what people use when they say gmt
Jan 11 22:05:19 <qwerty12_N800> ~utc
Jan 11 22:05:20 <wazd> oh :)
Jan 11 22:05:21 <infobot> [utc] Coordinated Universal Time (Temps Universel Coordonne), and is generally equivalent to GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). Time zones around the world are expressed as positive or negative offsets from UTC.
Jan 11 22:05:52 <mavhc> nomally gmt+-0.5 seconds
Jan 11 22:05:57 <aquatix> hm, does mdictionary work on latest os2008?
Jan 11 22:06:05 <aquatix> can't seem to find it in extras
Jan 11 22:06:07 <wazd> thanks
Jan 11 22:08:03 <Stskeeps> wazd: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/mer-titan2/Screenshot-1.png <- still missing Xcomposite, but we're getting there :P
Jan 11 22:08:51 <wazd> stskeeps: nice!
Jan 11 22:09:09 <aquatix> hm :)
Jan 11 22:09:32 <Stskeeps> wazd: you have a downsized version without the 'e' in it?
Jan 11 22:09:42 <Stskeeps> i can see it on this scrshot with the proper light so :P
Jan 11 22:10:58 <wazd> oh shit
Jan 11 22:11:06 <wazd> my fault :)
Jan 11 22:11:35 <wazd> It's a watermark :P
Jan 11 22:11:39 <Stskeeps> heheh
Jan 11 22:12:11 <GeneralAntilles> Jaffa, I like how Phil thinks you're hiding behind an anonymous nick. ;)
Jan 11 22:12:12 <Stskeeps> in more than one meaning, yeah
Jan 11 22:13:06 <Shadow___X> hmm
Jan 11 22:17:26 <wazd> Stskeeps: http://s39.radikal.ru/i086/0901/48/3c0a991026db.jpg
Jan 11 22:17:45 <wazd> I've added a bit top light
Jan 11 22:17:45 <Stskeeps> wazd: thanks! updating titan theme with it
Jan 11 22:18:39 <TheFatal> any1 had create a image whit moblin imgae creator ?
Jan 11 22:23:07 <TheFatal> alguien creo una imagen con el moblin image creator ?
Jan 11 22:23:42 <Stskeeps> TheFatal: it only generates for x86
Jan 11 22:28:24 <TheFatal> ou....
Jan 11 22:28:41 <Stskeeps> wazd: if you get bored, some kind of icon concept for the window switcher (the one in the bottom) and the icon to the left
Jan 11 22:28:44 <TheFatal> i belive it is for create images for some devices...
Jan 11 22:28:51 <Stskeeps> yeah, UMPC
Jan 11 22:31:17 <GeneralAntilles> For my wiki blog post: Ad blocking, Extras, Root access, Updating the tablet firmware, Uploading to Extras, USB host mode, and Wifi PSM.
Jan 11 22:31:38 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: "wiki.maemo.org highlights"?
Jan 11 22:31:45 <Shadow___X> hey GeneralAntilles does that include how to fix portmap ?
Jan 11 22:31:48 <Shadow___X> :)
Jan 11 22:32:07 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, "Wiki articles you're missing out on"
Jan 11 22:32:11 <Stskeeps> ah
Jan 11 22:32:19 <GeneralAntilles> A more user-centric version of the packaging features article.
Jan 11 22:32:27 <Stskeeps> "1000 wiki articles you should read before you die" ;)
Jan 11 22:32:32 <GeneralAntilles> Hehe
Jan 11 22:32:53 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, that book was on the best sellers for a while
Jan 11 22:33:11 <GeneralAntilles> Too bad we haven't got 1000 wiki articles. :D
Jan 11 22:35:28 <mavhc> 1000 wiki articles to edit before you die
Jan 11 22:35:42 <lcuk> 1000 wiki articles to create before you die
Jan 11 22:36:03 <qwerty12_N800> 1000 wiki articles to vandalize before you die
Jan 11 22:36:15 <lcuk> 1000 wiki articles to northernize before you die
Jan 11 22:36:20 <GeneralAntilles> Good! We've got a whole series. :P
Jan 11 22:36:26 * qwerty12_N800 chokes
Jan 11 22:36:45 <lcuk> :D heh
Jan 11 22:36:58 * Stskeeps crosses finger for composite working
Jan 11 22:37:08 <lcuk> Just wait until I start talking about my time in CS class northernizing databases
Jan 11 22:37:16 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, will you be publishing the series? :D
Jan 11 22:37:23 <qwerty12_N800> lcuk, :P
Jan 11 22:37:40 <lcuk> thats quite a good term actually :D
Jan 11 22:38:07 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, I know some publishers, anyway. :P
Jan 11 22:38:15 <mavhc> 1000 "1000 wiki article action" lists to read before you die
Jan 11 22:38:26 <TheFatal> http://fedoramobile.org/
Jan 11 22:38:27 <lcuk> –verb (used with object), -ized, -iz⋅ing. (sometimes lowercase)
Jan 11 22:38:27 <lcuk> to make northern; impart qualities considered typical of the North,
Jan 11 22:38:39 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, hehe :p
Jan 11 22:39:27 <lcuk> TheFatal, are you gonna actually try to install one of these OSes or are you just gonna tell us what we already know all night?
Jan 11 22:39:27 <qwerty12_N800> lcuk, stop that, you're making me cry :( :p
Jan 11 22:39:48 <TheFatal> lcuk: xD i try to install it
Jan 11 22:43:44 <Stskeeps> damnit
Jan 11 22:43:55 <Stskeeps> xf86-video-omapfb doesnt seem to have composite
Jan 11 22:44:23 <lcuk> i thought omapfb was on device only
Jan 11 22:44:26 * Stskeeps considers if a Xomap binary build would be worth it
Jan 11 22:44:33 <lcuk> and you weould use a different driver elsewhere
Jan 11 22:44:48 <Stskeeps> yeah, so it is, but still nice to have something pretty
Jan 11 22:45:32 <lcuk> what are you using when you boot natively on x86?
Jan 11 22:45:41 <lcuk> or havent you really done that too much yet
Jan 11 22:45:41 <Stskeeps> xorg, + intel driver
Jan 11 22:45:43 <Stskeeps> http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/mer0.6a/
Jan 11 22:46:00 <lcuk> i dont have intel though on my x41 (or do i?)
Jan 11 22:46:19 <Stskeeps> you can take any other driver :P
Jan 11 22:47:00 <lcuk> is there a fallback "standard" driver (like windows has)
Jan 11 22:47:22 <lcuk> ie something suboptimal but will work on anything
Jan 11 22:47:37 <Stskeeps> vesa
Jan 11 22:47:46 <qwerty12_N800> think xorg does vesa if that is what you mean
Jan 11 22:47:46 <lcuk> no, ive got a mastercard
Jan 11 22:47:48 <wazd> well, gtg to captain pillow :)
Jan 11 22:48:07 <lcuk> yeah it will be sts
Jan 11 22:49:22 <wazd> See you later guys :)
Jan 11 22:49:59 <Stskeeps> cya
Jan 11 22:56:09 <Shadow___X> http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6010/screenshot02tx5.png
Jan 11 22:56:15 <Shadow___X> thats how the problem looks
Jan 11 22:58:16 <`Mace> Stskeeps - already don't spend too much time on it? :)
Jan 11 22:58:22 <lcuk> Shadow___X, http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21613
Jan 11 22:58:52 <lcuk> dont follow directly - it was a recognisable posting from qwerty12_N800 that caught my attention
Jan 11 22:59:08 <Shadow___X> thats lcuk
Jan 11 22:59:57 <limepi> hey there... anyone familiar with bluetooth keyboard pairing problems
Jan 11 23:00:04 <`Mace> Stskeeps - it's ok. not much of a hassle. i need to move my G3 anyways.. was going to make a shell box out of it
Jan 11 23:00:12 <`Mace> it's not serving much of a purpose where it is
Jan 11 23:00:27 <`Mace> and a 350MHz G3 should be good enough for a shell box haha
Jan 11 23:01:47 <`Mace> it's a BEAST :)
Jan 11 23:04:11 <GeneralAntilles> Ah, the G3.
Jan 11 23:04:32 <GeneralAntilles> Who can argue with the beauty of http://blog.solmetra.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/img_4232.JPG
Jan 11 23:04:58 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, http://maemo.org/community/council/wiki_articles_you-re_missing_out_on/
Jan 11 23:05:15 <qwerty12_N800> It's FUGLY! :P
Jan 11 23:05:33 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: looks good
Jan 11 23:05:38 <Stskeeps> (wiki)
Jan 11 23:05:44 <GeneralAntilles> Hehe
Jan 11 23:07:09 <qwerty12_N800> I don't think adblock even works under diablo :)
Jan 11 23:07:36 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, feel free to edit.
Jan 11 23:08:08 <GeneralAntilles> lol "WedgeAntilles is a turd"
Jan 11 23:08:09 <lcuk> GeneralAntilles, why are all the sprint tasks tomatoed :O
Jan 11 23:08:18 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, because the were carried over from last month
Jan 11 23:08:26 <lcuk> ahhh
Jan 11 23:08:29 <GeneralAntilles> They'll change as soon as their owners update status.
Jan 11 23:08:30 * Stskeeps tries to get Xomap to work
Jan 11 23:08:47 <lcuk> cool, just browsing through :)
Jan 11 23:09:44 <RST38h> General: http://blog.solmetra.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/img_4232.JPG <-- hideous transparent/blut plastic!
Jan 11 23:09:44 <Shadow___X> lcuk: wouldnt that cause permanent damage or do you just do it temporarily
Jan 11 23:09:47 <RST38h> =)
Jan 11 23:10:13 <RST38h> Although I guess Apple isn't to blame for zillions of Chinese gadgets made of it
Jan 11 23:10:17 <lcuk> Shadow___X, ask the authors, i just googled the error :)
Jan 11 23:10:23 <limepi> does anyone know what build works with my apple bluetooth keyboard
Jan 11 23:10:31 <lcuk> all of them
Jan 11 23:10:36 <lcuk> ive used it since chinook
Jan 11 23:10:37 <Shadow___X> oh ok thanks
Jan 11 23:10:41 <limepi> not the most recent diablo
Jan 11 23:10:48 <limepi> won't work with mah n800
Jan 11 23:10:50 <lcuk> humm not sure
Jan 11 23:11:25 <lcuk> its had a problem once or twice needing battery popping at both ends and cold starts
Jan 11 23:11:33 <limepi> I'm considering just going back to chinook because I'd rather have the ability to type vs. microb crashing slightly less
Jan 11 23:11:35 <lcuk> but other than that it works
Jan 11 23:11:36 <RST38h> limepi: Have you paired it well?
Jan 11 23:11:48 <Shadow___X> qwerty12_N800: with this post [hack] Getting rid of "dangling symlinks" and unable to install <package>  would that cause permanent damage or is it temporary
Jan 11 23:12:01 <limepi> RST28h: I tried pretty much every possible permutation
Jan 11 23:12:19 <lcuk> Shadow___X, you would be better to read the whole thread and see - qwertys initial hack was revised
Jan 11 23:12:21 <RST38h> limepi: you are supposed to enter the security code on the keyboard itself and press enter
Jan 11 23:12:29 <limepi> yes, I did that numberous times
Jan 11 23:12:34 <limepi> *numerous
Jan 11 23:12:43 <qwerty12_N800> Shadow___X, *what* damage? you can't install/remove portmap anyway
Jan 11 23:13:09 <limepi> with the message "pairing failed: device resources exceeded"
Jan 11 23:13:25 <RST38h> oh there was a bug for that
Jan 11 23:13:34 <Shadow___X> qwerty12_N800: well i just want to fix the portmap installation then have wizard mounter work thats all
Jan 11 23:13:45 <limepi> yeah... I saw the bug report and apparently there is some funky low-level fix
Jan 11 23:14:01 <limepi> but I just want to know what build will give me my keyboard back
Jan 11 23:14:25 <lcuk> has it been that long since i plugged in kb :O
Jan 11 23:14:33 <RST38h> it should work in all "builds"
Jan 11 23:14:48 <limepi> it _should_ but it __doesn't__
Jan 11 23:16:52 <Stskeeps> http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/mer0.6a/screenshot06.png <- now we're getting somewhere!
Jan 11 23:17:16 <suihkulokki> cool :)
Jan 11 23:17:18 <lcuk> have you added the reflection to the icon or did it include it anyway
Jan 11 23:17:33 <Stskeeps> think it's included
Jan 11 23:17:53 <lcuk> cos i think i can make that an option when rendering bitmaps :)
Jan 11 23:18:16 <qwerty12_N800> Is this Xomap?
Jan 11 23:18:25 <Stskeeps> yeah, but i think omapfb can do it to really
Jan 11 23:18:30 <Stskeeps> i missed out on a gtk file
Jan 11 23:27:17 * lcuk retires to his shed
Jan 11 23:29:33 <Stskeeps> qwerty12_N800: once you're bored, can you see if you can get usplash going?
Jan 11 23:29:44 <Stskeeps> or similar method
Jan 11 23:30:19 <lcuk> is there a nice set of those white alpha icon pngs anywhere (like the bt meter or charger thingy)
Jan 11 23:30:21 <qwerty12_N800> doesn't fb-progress work? :/
Jan 11 23:30:27 <Stskeeps> no clue under ubuntu
Jan 11 23:30:32 <Stskeeps> under debian it followed LSB
Jan 11 23:30:40 <qwerty12_N800> ah
Jan 11 23:41:58 <Stskeeps> eh
Jan 11 23:42:03 <Stskeeps> funny thing in maemo translations
Jan 11 23:42:10 <Stskeeps> # Incoming event text field item. where %d is the amount of SMS threads
Jan 11 23:42:12 <lardman|home> night all
Jan 11 23:42:20 <Stskeeps> msgid "tana_fi_voice_mails"
Jan 11 23:42:58 <Stskeeps> i really ponder if they're going to pull a phone on us
Jan 11 23:43:22 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, I hope not.
Jan 11 23:43:42 <GeneralAntilles> I wouldn't mind a phone overly much if it meant only that.
Jan 11 23:43:44 <Stskeeps> or at least phone versions
Jan 11 23:43:59 <GeneralAntilles> But adding cellular to Maemo (even only in a particular version) will destroy the whole OS.
Jan 11 23:44:02 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: i've yet to find "Unsigned application" ;)
Jan 11 23:44:22 <lcuk> GeneralAntilles, has it destroyed android?
Jan 11 23:44:30 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, hell yes.
Jan 11 23:44:35 <GeneralAntilles> Java-only?
Jan 11 23:44:43 <GeneralAntilles> Limitations placed on the OS by providers
Jan 11 23:44:50 <lcuk> then how does it run on our devices ?
Jan 11 23:44:55 <GeneralAntilles> Android isn't really open, whatever they may want you to think.
Jan 11 23:45:15 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, er, I'm talking about application space for 3rd-parties
Jan 11 23:45:16 <lcuk> the game you play ontop of linux doesnt take away from the fact its linux underneath
Jan 11 23:45:25 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, yes it does.
Jan 11 23:45:37 <GeneralAntilles> Every played with a Linux phone from Motorola?
Jan 11 23:45:46 <GeneralAntilles> The fact that something's Linux really means very little in the long run.
Jan 11 23:46:24 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, if Maemo becomes a phone OS, everything about the OS is then colored by cellular requirements.
Jan 11 23:46:51 <GeneralAntilles> Besides, 4.1" screens don't suit phones
Jan 11 23:47:17 <GeneralAntilles> Something as simple as targeting smaller screens will have a profound effect on the OS
Jan 11 23:47:45 <GeneralAntilles> Perhaps if you were talking about a Maemo Software with the manpower to handle supporting a cellular and non-cellular platform, then we might talk.
Jan 11 23:47:50 <GeneralAntilles> But we're not and they don't.
Jan 11 23:47:59 <lcuk> i would love for this n810 to have been a phone :$
Jan 11 23:48:06 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, they don't have the manpower to push some small maintenance upgrades for Diablo
Jan 11 23:48:07 <lcuk> but it also needs to be a camera
Jan 11 23:48:15 <GeneralAntilles> just think what evils cellular would invoke upon us.
Jan 11 23:49:09 <lcuk> like what?
Jan 11 23:49:43 <GeneralAntilles> Operator requirements, government requirements.
Jan 11 23:49:50 <GeneralAntilles> You wouldn't be able to implement liqbase. :)
Jan 11 23:50:06 <GeneralAntilles> and the other stuff I enumerated above.
Jan 11 23:50:08 <GeneralAntilles> It's bad news.
Jan 11 23:50:20 <lcuk> thats poppycock!  liqbase will run on anything now - im gonna have it on a toaster by weekend :P
Jan 11 23:50:33 <GeneralAntilles> A toast is not a cellphone.
Jan 11 23:50:46 <GeneralAntilles> Get back to me when you can run it on the G1 or one of Motorola's Linux phones.
Jan 11 23:50:52 <GeneralAntilles> s/toast/toaster/
Jan 11 23:51:16 <lcuk> i keep thinking about the g1 actually :)
Jan 11 23:51:21 <lcuk> and on the iphone
Jan 11 23:51:26 <GeneralAntilles> The other thing to think about, though, do you really want something with such limited battery life and so unstable as a phone?
Jan 11 23:51:28 <GeneralAntilles> I don't.
Jan 11 23:51:45 <lcuk> limited battery life of a phone?
Jan 11 23:52:01 <GeneralAntilles> N8x0 as a phone
Jan 11 23:52:02 <lcuk> they last for days - i dont actually call that much so its just on
Jan 11 23:52:09 <GeneralAntilles> will have even more limited battery life
Jan 11 23:52:16 <lcuk> for why?
Jan 11 23:52:20 <GeneralAntilles> Not when you've got a cellular interface in there.
Jan 11 23:52:24 <lcuk> dont you tell me wifi idle time is in days
Jan 11 23:52:29 <lcuk> its not much different with a phone
Jan 11 23:52:40 <GeneralAntilles> My phone lasts a week idle
Jan 11 23:52:42 <lcuk> and my phone hasa tiny battery
Jan 11 23:52:55 <lcuk> i charge it once every when i can remember
Jan 11 23:53:01 <lcuk> my 810 is charged everyday
Jan 11 23:53:07 * GeneralAntilles isn't sure we're on the same wavelength.
Jan 11 23:53:31 <lcuk> i am, the point is cellular doesnt drain the battery unless you are using it loads
Jan 11 23:53:38 <GeneralAntilles> Yes it does
Jan 11 23:53:39 <lcuk> just like wifi doesnt drain unless you are using it loads
Jan 11 23:53:46 <GeneralAntilles> It drains it more than an N8x0 without cellular
Jan 11 23:53:57 <mavhc> it drains it 1/7th per day
Jan 11 23:53:57 <GeneralAntilles> But MY point was that the tablets have limited battery life compared to phones.
Jan 11 23:54:01 <GeneralAntilles> Which is what I think you missed.
Jan 11 23:54:09 <lcuk> my n810 needs charging every 4 hours if im connected to wifi, my phone goes for days/weeks
Jan 11 23:54:19 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, WiFi drops idle time from 2 weeks to 2-4 days.
Jan 11 23:54:47 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, that's because of your inane resistance to buying a real router.
Jan 11 23:54:51 <mavhc> isn't the wifi supposed to powersave?
Jan 11 23:55:07 <GeneralAntilles> It is, but lcuk doesn't have a real router for some damn reason.
Jan 11 23:55:33 <GeneralAntilles> So his can't ever turn the radio off.
Jan 11 23:55:33 <lcuk> GeneralAntilles, my point is, im *used* to that already with my nit - having it as a phone will not even effect my uptime one little bit
Jan 11 23:55:37 <lcuk> of course i turn the radio off
Jan 11 23:55:39 <lcuk> when im not using it
Jan 11 23:56:11 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, I'm not interested in having my emergency device reboot loop on my in the middle of a 911 call or die before I get home at the end of the day.
Jan 11 23:56:13 <lcuk> my devices sit in an ad-hoc wifi cloud.  i can ROAM with them and have them all connected if they are nearby without ever setting up anything
Jan 11 23:56:19 <lcuk> in my car i can code
Jan 11 23:56:35 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, routers do that just fine
Jan 11 23:56:40 <GeneralAntilles> without killing your battery in the process.
Jan 11 23:56:59 <lcuk> i havent got a router in my car :$
Jan 11 23:57:06 <GeneralAntilles> Then you switch to ad-hoc
Jan 11 23:57:13 <GeneralAntilles> Using ad-hoc all the time is silly.
Jan 11 23:57:17 * lcuk pulls hair out
Jan 11 23:57:34 <GeneralAntilles> Silly lcuk Discussion™
Jan 11 23:57:43 <lcuk> v3.8b
Jan 11 23:58:30 <lcuk> on a more positive note ive finally sussed how to lean my device in the cradle against the monitor at the right angle, AND also be able to click my taskbar applications
Jan 11 23:58:35 <StsN800> (acon)
Jan 11 23:58:39 <lcuk> mmmmmm
Jan 11 23:58:56 <lcuk> (the top of the cradle covers over the bottom 2cm of the lcd)
Jan 12 00:10:30 <Shadow___X> do /* */ comments work in commenting invoke-rc.d?
Jan 12 00:12:48 <StsN800> nah. #
Jan 12 00:13:04 <lcuk> usually theres at least one comment in a generic file
Jan 12 00:13:19 <Shadow___X> eh
Jan 12 00:13:32 <lcuk> when you read the file itself does it already have comments?
Jan 12 00:13:38 <lcuk> if so, when in rome..
Jan 12 00:13:44 <Shadow___X> yeah its #
Jan 12 00:14:02 <Shadow___X> but following the tutorial i was just going to comment out alot of text at once
Jan 12 00:14:06 <Shadow___X> using /*
Jan 12 00:33:00 <Shadow___X> i am finally able to overcome the dangling symlinks and uninstall portmap but when i install it again it does the same thing
Jan 12 00:33:38 <disq> having autoconf/libtool/autobuilder problems, anybody here to help?
Jan 12 00:49:05 <smackpotato> look here http://www.oqo.com/store/shop.cgi/op/op_itemdetail.html
Jan 12 00:49:23 <smackpotato> its organic vga only though
Jan 12 00:51:32 <Shadow___X> windows though
Jan 12 00:51:49 <smackpotato> ya that too
Jan 12 00:52:17 <Shadow___X> but it seems like a normal distro should beable to be installed
Jan 12 00:52:19 <Shadow___X> then tweaked
Jan 12 00:54:41 <smackpotato> cool. i was wondering if the nokia n820 will have one
Jan 12 01:17:16 <Shadow____X> when i install wizard-mounter it doesnt prompt me where to put the icon
Jan 12 01:19:28 <disq> woot, passed autobuilder finally
Jan 12 01:21:41 * b-man is gutting his ubuntu jaunty install because ubuntu-desktop is not functioning properly and needs to re-install ubuntu-desktop :p
Jan 12 01:25:49 <Shadow____X> is there a way to get an icon for wizard-mounter
Jan 12 01:26:55 <b-man> you mean a desktop icon?
Jan 12 01:27:41 <Shadow____X> no the application menu wheer you install an app is asks you where to put it but its not asking me
Jan 12 01:28:30 <b-man> just go to control-pannel, pannels > orginise
Jan 12 01:29:28 <Shadow____X> yeah it was there
Jan 12 01:29:30 <Shadow____X> wasnt*
Jan 12 01:31:52 <b-man> does wizard-mounter have a desktop file? you can check by using 'ls /usr/share/applications/hildon'.
Jan 12 01:32:02 <b-man> in xterm
Jan 12 01:34:06 <Shadow____X> no it doesnt
Jan 12 01:34:09 <Shadow____X> but its supposed to
Jan 12 01:34:16 <b-man> hmmm
Jan 12 01:34:47 <Shadow____X> i have had the icons before but i have recently been fixing problems with this flash
Jan 12 01:34:58 <Shadow____X> so maybe there is a config file or something
Jan 12 01:35:05 <Shadow____X> that made it not ask
Jan 12 01:35:13 <Shadow____X> because i can openit in xterm fine
Jan 12 01:36:09 <b-man> you could try making a desktop file, there verry easy to make :)
Jan 12 01:36:18 <b-man> i'll show you one.
Jan 12 01:36:21 <Shadow____X> oh yeah alright
Jan 12 01:36:27 <b-man> hold on..
Jan 12 01:36:29 <Shadow____X> i mean i dont consider myself a newb
Jan 12 01:37:16 <Shadow____X> want to send me wizard mounters one
Jan 12 01:37:17 <Shadow____X> lol
Jan 12 01:43:45 <limepi> ...how long should I take my battery out for a full, um... "reset" or whatever
Jan 12 01:44:14 <b-man> 30 seconds
Jan 12 01:45:05 <limepi> nice. I can wait that long.
Jan 12 01:45:13 <b-man> lol
Jan 12 01:45:39 <limepi> I'm trying to do this fix https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2640
Jan 12 01:46:01 <limepi> and I didn't even do a restore
Jan 12 01:52:51 * b-man will be back, need to finish re-installing ubuntu-desktop in his ubuntu jaunty install on his N800 ;)
Jan 12 01:56:34 <Vulcanis> you need to write a guide for that soon >.>
Jan 12 01:59:19 <b-man> i allrety have; http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25975
Jan 12 02:00:10 <b-man> ;p
Jan 12 02:08:27 <Shadow____X> is there a way to read the contents of a .deb file
Jan 12 02:08:35 <Shadow____X> to know where its installing stuff to
Jan 12 02:09:22 <towo> dpkg -c $deb, IIRC
Jan 12 02:09:38 <towo> corrrrect
Jan 12 02:11:05 <Shadow____X> thanks
Jan 12 02:11:35 <TheFatal> look this -->  http://linux.onarm.com/index.php/Main_Page
Jan 12 02:11:36 <TheFatal> all Related Projects are operating system for internet tablets ?
Jan 12 02:18:23 <Shadow____X> how do i know if i am on diablo or os08
Jan 12 02:18:36 <Vulcanis> diablo is os08.  just the latest update
Jan 12 02:18:38 <Vulcanis> which I think is .43
Jan 12 02:19:42 <Shadow____X> hmm damn it
Jan 12 02:19:56 <Shadow____X> i am having a problem where wizard-mounter doesnt fully install
Jan 12 02:21:06 <TrueJournals> Shadow____X: Does Application Manager show it as broken?  Or what?
Jan 12 02:21:23 <TrueJournals> (Latest diablo is 5.2008.43-7)
Jan 12 02:21:30 <Shadow____X> i have that installed
Jan 12 02:21:32 <Shadow____X> and no
Jan 12 02:21:49 <Shadow____X> i was having issues with portmap ealier
Jan 12 02:22:07 <Shadow____X> i fixed those and in the commosion wizard-mounter was installed and uninstalled alot of times
Jan 12 02:22:27 <Shadow____X> it says installation complete but does not install icons or .desktop file
Jan 12 02:22:44 <Shadow____X> when exec in xterm it doesn run though
Jan 12 02:24:03 <TrueJournals> Have you checked in the log in the application manager for any errors after installing it?
Jan 12 02:24:35 <Shadow____X> will do that right now
Jan 12 02:29:12 <Shadow____X> doesnt say anything bad
Jan 12 02:29:22 <Shadow____X> says unpacking it and then setting it up
Jan 12 02:29:49 <TrueJournals> I think I know the problem
Jan 12 02:30:05 <TrueJournals> The Wizard Mounter deb appears to be bad
Jan 12 02:30:18 <Shadow____X> alright
Jan 12 02:30:28 <TrueJournals> see if ls /wizard_mounter.desktop returns anything
Jan 12 02:30:56 <Shadow____X> in what dir
Jan 12 02:31:14 <TrueJournals> Any directory
Jan 12 02:31:31 <TrueJournals> It should return wizard_mounter.desktop
Jan 12 02:32:10 <Shadow____X> how is that trenka
Jan 12 02:32:17 <Shadow____X> how is that TrueJournals
Jan 12 02:32:25 <Shadow____X> in any directory
Jan 12 02:32:25 <Shadow____X> ?
Jan 12 02:32:33 <TrueJournals> Yeah, the / takes care of that
Jan 12 02:32:58 <TrueJournals> I believe that wizard mounter actually puts its desktop and dbus service file in /
Jan 12 02:33:47 <TrueJournals> If that's the case, run the following two commands:
Jan 12 02:33:56 <Shadow____X> well i looked in /usr/share/apps/hildon
Jan 12 02:33:59 <Shadow____X> and its not there
Jan 12 02:34:06 <TrueJournals> mv /wizard_mounter.desktop /usr/share/applications/hildon
Jan 12 02:34:17 <TrueJournals> mv /wizard_mounter.service /usr/share/dbus-1/services
Jan 12 02:36:08 <Shadow____X> i am searching for it using find / wizard-mounter.desktop
Jan 12 02:36:27 <TrueJournals> Shadow____X: Is it not just in / ?
Jan 12 02:36:48 <Shadow____X> no its not
Jan 12 02:37:08 <TrueJournals> Hmm... I'll try installing it and see if I can figure anything out
Jan 12 02:38:00 <Shadow____X> nvm TrueJournals you where right
Jan 12 02:38:01 <Shadow____X> lol
Jan 12 02:38:04 <Shadow____X> sorry about that
Jan 12 02:38:14 <TrueJournals> No problem :-)
Jan 12 02:38:30 <TrueJournals> Run the following two commands, and it should fix the problem:
Jan 12 02:38:35 <TrueJournals> mv /wizard_mounter.desktop /usr/share/applications/hildon
Jan 12 02:38:38 <TrueJournals> mv /wizard_mounter.service /usr/share/dbus-1/services
Jan 12 02:38:44 <TrueJournals> (You'll need to run them as root)
Jan 12 02:39:29 <Shadow____X> awesome
Jan 12 02:39:32 <Shadow____X> thanks all done
Jan 12 02:39:45 <TrueJournals> And that fixed it?
Jan 12 02:39:48 <Shadow____X> yup
Jan 12 02:39:49 <Shadow____X> sure did
Jan 12 02:39:57 <Shadow____X> why does that happen
Jan 12 02:40:04 <TrueJournals> Good... I'll e-mail the author and let him no
Jan 12 02:40:16 <TrueJournals> For whatever reason, those two files got put in the wrong location in the deb file
Jan 12 02:40:27 <TrueJournals> As a result, they were extracted to /, instead of where they should be
Jan 12 02:40:40 <Shadow____X> right
Jan 12 02:40:47 <Shadow____X> that hasnt happened before though
Jan 12 02:41:31 <TrueJournals> Yeah, it's a deb-specific thing.. most of them are packed correctly
Jan 12 02:41:44 <TrueJournals> Files in debs are just stuck in as they should be extracted to the filesystem
Jan 12 02:41:46 <Shadow____X> oh ok
Jan 12 02:41:54 <Shadow____X> depending on which repo i used?
Jan 12 02:42:09 <TrueJournals> Nope, just the deb itself
Jan 12 02:42:13 <Shadow____X> ah ok
Jan 12 02:42:22 <TrueJournals> The author of the application just didn't package the deb correctly
Jan 12 02:46:21 <Shadow____X> ah
Jan 12 02:47:59 <TrueJournals> Well, I gotta go
Jan 12 02:48:20 <TrueJournals> Goodbye all
Jan 12 02:51:22 <Shadow____X> see ya and thanks again
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jan 12 02:59:57 2009