**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Feb 01 02:59:57 2009 Feb 01 03:36:09 wtf is the ahl? Feb 01 03:36:16 like.. poor man's hockey? Feb 01 05:51:46 ~mer ? Feb 01 05:51:50 ~mer Feb 01 05:51:59 infobot mer? Feb 01 05:52:11 somebody said mer was http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer Feb 01 05:52:12 mer is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer Feb 01 05:52:13 [mer] http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer Feb 01 06:42:10 hey anyone up? i need some help. specifically: Feb 01 06:42:35 i did an apt-get upgrade on my n800. it broke; fortunately, i was booting from MMC; how can i go in and disable the lifeguard reset, using the internal flash installation? Feb 01 06:45:03 lifeguard is controlled by fashertool Feb 01 06:45:39 oh Feb 01 06:45:58 well i get an endless boot loop. is it worth it to go get a livecd and try to disable lifeguard? or should i just reinstall? Feb 01 06:46:04 Play dead is controlled by presence of power - remove battery for a while Feb 01 06:46:31 remove the battery? ok Feb 01 06:47:03 don't leave it alone if you disable lifeguard Feb 01 06:47:15 what do you mean? Feb 01 06:47:47 dont leave it alone Feb 01 06:48:08 Light a fire in a forest Feb 01 06:48:17 Do you walk away? Feb 01 06:48:20 ... Feb 01 06:48:40 but this is a pda, not a forest Feb 01 06:48:47 it never even leaves my house mostly Feb 01 06:50:02 if you'll excuse the metaphore, disabling life guard isn't supported Feb 01 06:50:10 Perhaps it voids your warranty Feb 01 06:50:15 if it lets the device boot, ill be happy Feb 01 06:50:19 If it does and the device burns up Feb 01 06:50:29 Because you were out... Feb 01 06:51:09 well, what do you reccommend that i do to recover? Feb 01 06:51:29 bAby sit it :) Feb 01 06:51:41 what i mean is, how do i stop the bootloop? Feb 01 06:51:55 pull the battery :) Feb 01 06:52:15 What data is on there that you need Feb 01 06:52:28 Can you mount it in a normal computer? Feb 01 06:52:37 all i have is windows Feb 01 06:52:47 i could try in a livecd, but linux isnt my first OS, so i wouldnt know how Feb 01 06:53:21 * timelE61i avoids this stuff Feb 01 06:53:54 what if i just ran through the instructions for booting from MMC again, and just recopied over the good install? but if i apt-get upgrade again, it'll just break. argh Feb 01 06:54:12 ordinarily i can boot safe from a lilo prompt and read the /var/log- but this device does not afford me this opportunity Feb 01 06:54:46 did you install syslog? Feb 01 06:54:56 Because normally it ain't there Feb 01 06:55:34 i'm fairly certain i did Feb 01 06:56:16 there are ext2/3 viewers for windows Feb 01 06:56:44 Find a readonly one and read the log Feb 01 06:56:51 i have a working partition on the device though, cant i just mount from there? Feb 01 06:57:48 how uncomfortable is your win box Feb 01 06:58:00 not uncomfortable at all? Feb 01 06:58:42 Typicallyy i prefer real keyboards and big screens for log file reading Feb 01 06:58:52 well, you see the thing is Feb 01 06:59:02 i SSH into it and voila Feb 01 06:59:19 big screen and keyboard. plus with my dual monitors i'm set Feb 01 06:59:32 not to mention the BT keyboard Feb 01 06:59:42 and busybox.... Feb 01 06:59:45 YEck Feb 01 06:59:53 * timelE61i goes af-phone Feb 01 07:00:01 either will work Feb 01 07:00:05 Good luck Feb 01 07:15:47 anyone around? Feb 01 07:22:55 AHA Feb 01 07:22:57 i got it mounted Feb 01 07:23:01 now i have syslog information. Feb 01 07:23:03 anyone wanna see? Feb 01 07:35:52 it seems to be choking on volume level Feb 01 07:36:00 it says Jan 18 01:15:49 Nokia-N800-51-3 ke_recv[1005]: unmount_volumes:833: couldn't unmount /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/volume_uuid_b8ccb54c_8792_4f62_8fd8_23a8acff23e6 Feb 01 07:36:06 Jan 18 01:15:49 Nokia-N800-51-3 exiting on signal 15 Feb 01 07:36:13 time's off too Feb 01 07:36:37 any idea how to fix that? Feb 01 07:45:34 there's a date/Time applet in control panel Feb 01 08:15:52 where can i get the most up to date sources.list for my n800? Feb 01 08:19:41 err Feb 01 08:19:51 Diablo is the latest release Feb 01 08:20:16 there aren't more than 2 main repos Feb 01 08:20:34 Everything else is stuff you choose Feb 01 08:37:11 is there a list of repos for n800 or maemo compatable stuff? Feb 01 08:38:11 gronmayer.com/it Feb 01 08:38:17 only ones you really want is the nokia repos, and Feb 01 08:38:19 ~extras Feb 01 08:38:20 extra, extra, read all about it, extras is http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras Feb 01 08:38:27 (and extras-devel) Feb 01 08:38:37 most of the repos in gronmayer.com/it are useless Feb 01 08:38:43 hm Feb 01 08:38:43 ok Feb 01 08:38:54 mainly i'm trying to install this turbocharge debian package Feb 01 08:38:59 and it wont go, because it says it cant be found. Feb 01 08:39:09 it's in extras-devel i believe Feb 01 08:39:11 or in extras Feb 01 08:39:15 did you upgrade to diablo? Feb 01 08:39:41 diablo? Feb 01 08:39:55 how do i tell? Feb 01 08:40:40 do you have the latest tablet firmware by nokia? Feb 01 08:40:52 well, did you upgrade to latest firmware from tablets-dev.nokia.com Feb 01 08:40:59 nope Feb 01 08:41:06 you ought to :P Feb 01 08:41:11 ~flashing Feb 01 08:41:12 i guess flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Feb 01 08:41:24 makes things a lot easier Feb 01 08:41:38 ok Feb 01 08:41:39 will do Feb 01 08:41:43 what will i lose? Feb 01 08:41:49 i've already lost one partition. Feb 01 08:41:52 had to reclone Feb 01 08:42:00 can i clone diablo to mmc the same way as the other one? Feb 01 08:42:36 yes Feb 01 08:42:55 * Stskeeps gets ready for a mer 0.6 release Feb 01 08:42:59 kksweet Feb 01 08:43:30 er, 0.7. Feb 01 08:43:46 whats mer? Feb 01 08:44:05 ~mer Feb 01 08:44:06 from memory, mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer Feb 01 08:45:42 hmm Feb 01 08:45:46 i'm guessing it's not yet stable Feb 01 08:46:22 correct, but usable, but has quirks Feb 01 08:46:29 hm Feb 01 08:46:33 ill wait for stable Feb 01 08:46:37 hehe Feb 01 08:46:42 i need mine for certain dedicated tasks; cant afford it to have quirks :) Feb 01 08:46:45 or try out the VMDK release :) Feb 01 08:46:46 stable is just a name Feb 01 08:46:52 for x86 / virtualbox / vmware Feb 01 08:47:10 what started as an apt-get update ended up in a total reflash and reclone tonight Feb 01 08:47:18 yeah, apt-get dist-upgrade is harmful on maemo Feb 01 08:47:20 s/update/upgrade Feb 01 08:47:41 but Feb 01 08:47:43 my main thing is Feb 01 08:48:01 i have to have A) dosbox B) the lcars theme that is so awesome and C) this new debian thing that looks f*cking wicked Feb 01 08:49:24 heh, whereas mer is based on ubuntu and easy debian is useless in that instance :) Feb 01 08:50:20 except for the wrappings within xephyr or the likes Feb 01 08:50:36 hmm Feb 01 08:50:46 holding the swap key is not putting me into that usb mode. what should i do? Feb 01 08:50:56 oh Feb 01 08:50:58 N800, N810? Feb 01 08:50:59 you're supposed to turn it on Feb 01 08:51:16 while holding the key. it didnt say that :P: Feb 01 08:51:31 wow Feb 01 08:51:39 i had firmware 2008se_2.2007.51-3 Feb 01 08:51:43 se? :P Feb 01 08:51:52 is that old? Feb 01 08:52:06 what tablet type do you have? Feb 01 08:52:07 i'm guessing that's ancient. Feb 01 08:52:10 probably what it shipped with eh? Feb 01 08:52:15 yeah, probably Feb 01 08:52:17 the n800 Feb 01 08:52:21 which are you upgrading to now? Feb 01 08:52:26 the latest diablo Feb 01 08:52:29 k Feb 01 08:52:35 diablo_5.2008.43-7 Feb 01 08:53:17 sounds right Feb 01 08:53:19 should i be expecting things to be like ridiculously different? like faster etc? Feb 01 08:53:25 possibly Feb 01 08:53:31 chinook -> diablo has its benefits Feb 01 08:53:36 hm Feb 01 08:54:22 i anticipate great things! Feb 01 08:54:27 will i lose my wep and BT settings? Feb 01 08:55:07 yeah, you probably would have wanted to run a backup before flashing Feb 01 08:55:21 but anyway, this step is a benefit to you. Feb 01 08:55:29 to get rid of old settings and such :P Feb 01 08:56:50 i wont be restoring any backups Feb 01 08:56:56 dont want old datas Feb 01 08:57:10 cramping my style Feb 01 08:57:22 * Stskeeps notes v0.7 vmdk works and gets on to testing next things Feb 01 08:57:36 god Feb 01 08:57:38 it feels fast Feb 01 08:57:38 like Feb 01 08:57:54 making the jump from 486-25 to 486 DX2/66 Feb 01 08:57:58 hehe Feb 01 08:58:14 that's unfair to the 400mhz processor in it ;) Feb 01 08:58:41 hehe Feb 01 08:58:47 it's an OMAP isnt it? Feb 01 08:58:48 thats like Feb 01 08:58:58 packard...bell... or something Feb 01 08:59:12 eh. Feb 01 08:59:15 texas instruments Feb 01 08:59:22 yeah, what the kid wiz said Feb 01 08:59:23 yeah Feb 01 08:59:24 TI Feb 01 08:59:27 TI-OMAP Feb 01 08:59:37 Livingroom: it also beats the hell out of x86 in terms of power usage :P Feb 01 08:59:37 the celeron of the ARM architecture Feb 01 08:59:48 i'm not so sure anymore really Feb 01 08:59:49 xscale beats them all, imo Feb 01 08:59:55 .. Feb 01 09:00:06 * Stskeeps gets out a baseball bat and bad experiences with alignment traps Feb 01 09:00:10 my dell axim x50 used to run ~1100mhz Feb 01 09:00:40 :(. My pocket pc was only overclockable to about 600mhz :/ Feb 01 09:00:52 mine was a late model with the new xscales Feb 01 09:00:57 could run it fairly stable at 1000 Feb 01 09:01:02 1100 was pushing it Feb 01 09:01:27 of course i had to buy a 3300mah battery for it Feb 01 09:01:30 to run it for more than like 15 minutes Feb 01 09:01:47 hehe Feb 01 09:01:49 xscale was so good intel bought it and killed it, just in case Feb 01 09:02:08 i hate them for that. Feb 01 09:02:49 intel did try to kill x86 with ia64, but they weren't able to destroy the monster they had created Feb 01 09:03:44 i remember when there was an ipaq in every color, flavor, cpu, speed, screen type, dock size and usb speed. Feb 01 09:03:57 and ipaq was the lamest name ever Feb 01 09:04:01 next to maybe "ipod" Feb 01 09:04:06 I have an ipaq, won't turn on Feb 01 09:04:09 but they sold by the kajillions Feb 01 09:04:24 flashes on for half a second, then turns off again Feb 01 09:04:47 hm Feb 01 09:04:50 dead battery? Feb 01 09:05:24 don't think so, you have do so a weird hard reset thing for it to try to turn on at all Feb 01 09:06:07 whats that cool control panel for maemo with the brightness and volume on the same screen Feb 01 09:06:26 advanced backlight Feb 01 09:08:06 kk Feb 01 09:08:23 i am LOLCATS of BORG. lower your shields and surrender your ships... Feb 01 09:08:58 I can has phaser? Feb 01 09:11:25 lol Feb 01 09:11:32 you'll never guess what i just did. Feb 01 09:11:36 never in a million years Feb 01 09:11:41 and if you did, i'd give you a billion dollars. Feb 01 09:12:15 sat on your cat? Feb 01 09:12:18 nope Feb 01 09:12:35 i just typed in the cheatkeys for commander keen 4 that my sister is emulating on her netbook with dosbox... so she can have GOD mode Feb 01 09:12:48 does the billion dollars rise with inflation over the million years? Feb 01 09:12:55 lol@mavhc Feb 01 09:13:52 crazy thing is Feb 01 09:13:55 i remembered them Feb 01 09:14:00 and it's been like... 20 years since i played that Feb 01 09:14:13 ok so iv'e got diablo up Feb 01 09:14:18 how do i add the extras repo? Feb 01 09:14:24 ~extras Feb 01 09:14:25 [extras] http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras Feb 01 09:14:49 7 things to get right, god mode is about 1 in 5, dosbox 1 in 5, netbook 1 in 5, sister 1 in 5, specific game 1 in 10000, and typing cheatkeys is what, 1 in a million? Feb 01 09:15:16 so 1 in 6250000000000 chance Feb 01 09:15:37 we could narrow it down to "typed in the cheat keys for keen 4" Feb 01 09:16:01 so if I had 1 guess every 5 seconds I would have got it Feb 01 09:16:32 in how long a time? Feb 01 09:16:54 1 million years Feb 01 09:17:02 hm Feb 01 09:17:02 ok Feb 01 09:17:03 (1 million years) / 6 250 000 000 000 = 5.04910816 seconds Feb 01 09:17:10 ah Feb 01 09:17:12 well then Feb 01 09:17:29 whats a billion dollars inflation adjusted for a million years from now at our current rate in the US? Feb 01 09:18:56 let's say 2% inflation? 1 000 000 000 * (.98^1 000 000) = 0 Feb 01 09:19:26 got a more accurate calculator? Feb 01 09:20:03 after 1000 years it's $1.68 Feb 01 09:20:24 hm Feb 01 09:20:47 is easy-deb-chroot worth it? Feb 01 09:21:02 does it actually "boot" its own "OS" or is it just like an overlay? Feb 01 09:21:29 an "overlay" on top of maemo. If you want full, booting debian, you should install deblet Feb 01 09:21:51 Livingroom: glorified chroot Feb 01 09:22:26 mavhc, echo 'scale=1000000000000; 1000000000*(.98^1000000)' | bc Feb 01 09:22:58 be warned it might take a while Feb 01 09:23:28 s/a w/aw/ Feb 01 09:23:28 wnd meant: be warned it might take awhile Feb 01 09:23:42 holy crap Feb 01 09:23:45 your channel does that? Feb 01 09:23:56 "a while" is better I think Feb 01 09:23:59 s/your channel does that?/your channel is very cool. Feb 01 09:24:09 hmm Feb 01 09:24:15 You forgot to end it with the / Feb 01 09:24:17 s/your channel does that?/your channel is very cool./ Feb 01 09:24:28 and it only works on the last sentence you typed Feb 01 09:24:33 lolz Feb 01 09:24:48 bit daft really, the human can parse much better Feb 01 09:25:08 * Stskeeps curses his imager Feb 01 09:25:17 if it was a client side script that actually editted the history, would be cool Feb 01 09:25:46 brbbio Feb 01 09:26:10 I don't have a fast linux computer ATM, someone formatted it and put win2k3 on it Feb 01 09:27:44 no wonder I never learned it: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/awhile.html Feb 01 09:30:40 geez already screwed up Feb 01 09:30:50 went and installed a bunch of crap on internal. meant to clone first *SIGH* Feb 01 09:31:23 morning Meizirkki Feb 01 09:33:14 hmm Feb 01 09:33:21 enable R&D mode through the red pill method on diablo? Feb 01 09:33:25 morning Stskeeps Feb 01 09:33:46 Livingroom: there's no good need for enabling R&D mode Feb 01 09:33:49 just install rootsh Feb 01 09:34:17 i'm guessing rootsh allows for su - root? Feb 01 09:34:19 crank cracks me up Feb 01 09:34:56 Livingroom: yeah, sudo gainroot or whatever, or just rootsh Feb 01 09:35:21 k Feb 01 09:35:22 also Feb 01 09:35:23 sshd Feb 01 09:35:29 for remote access Feb 01 09:35:32 grab openssh-server from extras.. Feb 01 09:36:47 got it Feb 01 09:36:50 back in business LOL Feb 01 09:37:12 openprojects...err. i mean freenode has always been my source of help. thank you guys so much just for exsisting Feb 01 09:39:23 * Stskeeps tests 0.7 snapshot Feb 01 09:40:55 * Stskeeps notes that crash wasn't expected. Feb 01 09:40:56 apt-get install e2fsprogs Feb 01 09:40:58 gives: Feb 01 09:41:08 Package e2fsprogs is not available, but is referred to by another package. Feb 01 09:41:28 Enable extras-devel for that Feb 01 09:41:54 o Feb 01 09:41:55 it wasnt int he list Feb 01 09:42:10 there's one on ~extras Feb 01 09:42:17 ~extras Feb 01 09:42:18 crank is a pretty funny moie Feb 01 09:42:20 movie Feb 01 09:42:23 i guess extras is http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras Feb 01 09:42:30 never saw it before Feb 01 09:42:38 Sts Feb 01 09:42:43 mm? Feb 01 09:43:19 nothing, just saying hi Feb 01 09:43:24 ah, morning :) Feb 01 09:44:31 ah got it Feb 01 09:44:31 thanks Feb 01 09:44:56 ~curse ports.ubuntu.com Feb 01 09:44:58 May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, ports.ubuntu.com ! Feb 01 09:47:52 bah Feb 01 09:48:05 is it mount -o /dev/mmcblk0p2 /opt ? Feb 01 09:48:18 ~sleep Feb 01 09:48:19 sleep is, like, overrated, and a poor substitute for caffeine. Feb 01 09:48:35 also, apt-get isnt finding nano or pico. Feb 01 09:48:41 ~zombie Feb 01 09:48:43 Library and server for developing networked apps/games.. URL: http://www.infa.abo.fi/~chakie/zombie/ Feb 01 09:49:01 Livingroom: enable diablo-tools repo for nano Feb 01 09:49:05 AAAAUGH Feb 01 09:49:07 so many sources Feb 01 09:49:13 :P Feb 01 09:49:27 where is diablo-tools hidden Feb 01 09:49:28 ~tools Feb 01 09:49:29 hmm... tools is just because the tools are free doesn't mean that you get to completely ignore all the rules and guidelines Feb 01 09:49:31 * Stskeeps is just looking forward to mer being stable so he uses it for everyday-work Feb 01 09:49:38 ~diablo-tools Feb 01 09:49:53 mer looks ok but needs a new name. "Mer." is just kinda weird Feb 01 09:50:00 it's like naming your investment bank "ING" Feb 01 09:50:41 Livingroom: makes perfect sense really. sea, "more" in swedish, etc. Feb 01 09:50:47 Livingroom: search diablo tools from gronmayer.com/it Feb 01 09:50:47 it's a new type of ecosystem :P Feb 01 09:51:29 and trust me, after dealing with maemo for quite a while, stuff like Mer is a blessing :) Feb 01 09:51:47 well Feb 01 09:51:49 "Mer" means noting in finninsh, but "Meri" means sea. :) Feb 01 09:51:58 hehe Feb 01 09:52:10 as an original early adopter of the Sharp Zaurus Linux PDA... i can say that maemo is A GODDAMN BLESSING on the mobile linux community. Feb 01 09:52:43 oh, we have Mer going on zaurus too. Feb 01 09:52:57 people still use those? Feb 01 09:53:01 seemingily Feb 01 09:53:15 wow. Feb 01 09:53:32 but i always use less, not more Feb 01 09:53:54 hehe Feb 01 09:54:24 i am a less fan too, but less is more featureful than less :P Feb 01 09:54:27 than more Feb 01 09:54:32 this describes my adventures tonight: http://xkcd.com/349/ Feb 01 09:54:50 what started as an apt-get upgrade culminated in a reflash, an upgrade, two reclonings, and the reinstallation of all my apps. Feb 01 09:54:57 hehe Feb 01 09:55:27 apps... AND SOURCES! Feb 01 09:55:59 ~passed out Feb 01 09:56:15 * Stskeeps gives daperl some coffee Feb 01 09:56:20 Stskeeps: epiphany-gecko is stable, fast, it has adblocker and it doesn't eat as much memory as midori takes. Epiphany-gecko has a change to become my day-to-day browser once Mer has a bit better power management. If there would be finger scroll, could it be used as a Mer default browser? Feb 01 09:56:39 what package contains the "locate" command? Feb 01 09:56:57 Meizirkki: possibly, right now we're not focusing on that part Feb 01 09:57:07 okay Feb 01 09:57:10 There's a mouse scroll, but it uses middle click :P Feb 01 09:57:16 hehe Feb 01 09:58:31 * daperl spills scolding brew on crotch, now wide awake Feb 01 09:59:01 Interesting method... Feb 01 09:59:56 scolding brew? if my coffe talked to me, i'd stop drinking it Feb 01 10:00:07 mcdonald's drive-through on-the-way-to-work method Feb 01 10:00:48 did i mean scaulding? (sp.?) Feb 01 10:01:02 scalding i think Feb 01 10:01:20 thanks Feb 01 10:01:28 Livingroom: Now is a good time to switch back to Windows =) Feb 01 10:01:57 throw it out the window Feb 01 10:01:59 why's that? Feb 01 10:02:31 Living: reflash, upgrade, two reclonings, reinstallation of all apps Feb 01 10:02:36 oh lol Feb 01 10:02:41 now i cant find my locate command AAAUGH Feb 01 10:03:08 why cant i 'locate' or 'updatedb' ? Feb 01 10:03:18 Because your gadget is borked. Feb 01 10:03:23 cos maemo is a embedded system Feb 01 10:03:23 :P Feb 01 10:03:32 debfarm repo used to have mlocale package but debfarm seems to be down Feb 01 10:03:39 s/mlocale/mlocate/ Feb 01 10:03:39 qwerty12 meant: debfarm repo used to have mlocate package but debfarm seems to be down Feb 01 10:04:25 oh god i cant live without locate Feb 01 10:08:21 * Stskeeps watches imager go at it and hopes apt doesn't f*ck up again Feb 01 10:29:59 hmm Feb 01 10:30:01 i did the cloning and Feb 01 10:30:04 it didnt give me a boot menu Feb 01 10:30:05 what gives? Feb 01 10:30:23 i skipped option 0 because i already had a partition...should i have done it anyway? Feb 01 10:32:49 if you don't have a small dos partition as your first you're asking for it Feb 01 10:32:55 i do Feb 01 10:32:59 i've done this before so the partition table was intact Feb 01 10:33:09 gotcha Feb 01 10:33:18 no lilo menu though Feb 01 10:34:14 damn Feb 01 10:34:17 the clone was messed up Feb 01 10:34:26 i mounted mmcblk02 on /opt and all i have is a lost+found Feb 01 10:34:46 that's not good Feb 01 10:35:21 you want quick and dirty? Feb 01 10:35:25 what do you mean? Feb 01 10:35:45 i'd love quick and dirty. cp -a / to /opt? Feb 01 10:36:40 if you're in flash you have to to remount the flash root say to /floppy Feb 01 10:36:56 supposedly thats what this shellscript is doing Feb 01 10:37:31 well, if it failed let's try it manually Feb 01 10:38:09 that's how i always do it Feb 01 10:38:10 i just dont understand why there's no bootmenu Feb 01 10:38:51 look at /mnt/initfs, is there a bootmenu.sh there? Feb 01 10:39:27 there is not Feb 01 10:39:52 you're initfs_flash failed Feb 01 10:40:21 i'm just going by these steps here http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8631 Feb 01 10:40:24 are there more i'm not aware of? Feb 01 10:41:24 well, you seem pretty savvy, so you might want to take more control Feb 01 10:41:42 OH SHI- Feb 01 10:41:45 i missed step #6 Feb 01 10:42:12 are you on it? Feb 01 10:42:33 no, i'm past it now. but it's recoverable Feb 01 10:42:48 step 6 does not seem critical to the whole op Feb 01 10:43:25 i never use anything but the fanoush script Feb 01 10:43:42 thats the one i forgot to use Feb 01 10:44:26 and i partition and copy root manually Feb 01 10:44:30 yikes Feb 01 10:44:36 i'll pass. Feb 01 10:45:18 don't pass, it's a one-liner Feb 01 10:45:54 do you have the url to his site? Feb 01 10:46:20 http://fanoush.wz.cz/maemo/#initfs ? Feb 01 10:46:30 * daperl is getting url Feb 01 10:46:58 si Feb 01 10:50:57 l are you giving it a go? Feb 01 10:51:22 s/l/Livingroom/ Feb 01 10:51:22 daperl meant: Livingroom are you giving it a go? Feb 01 10:51:23 yeah Feb 01 10:51:26 flashing initfs now Feb 01 10:51:58 used custom bootmenu.conf, gutwrench time Feb 01 10:54:56 do you want me stick around, 'cause i'm gonna pass out? Feb 01 10:55:20 s/me/me to / Feb 01 10:55:21 daperl meant: do you want me to stick around, 'cause i'm gonna pass out? Feb 01 10:55:35 hmm Feb 01 10:55:38 something went wrong Feb 01 10:55:46 you can pass out if you like Feb 01 10:55:54 i just did something strange in bootmenu.conf is all Feb 01 10:56:04 did you get the menu? Feb 01 10:57:00 and did you remember to copy over a root fs? Feb 01 10:57:01 i do have the menu Feb 01 10:57:10 dont know about that copy over a root FS thing, btu Feb 01 10:57:12 *but Feb 01 10:57:39 hm Feb 01 10:57:55 * RST38h wonders how many hours it will take Livingroom to sort things out =) Feb 01 10:58:03 hehe Feb 01 10:58:12 the good news: McDonalds is now serving brekfast Feb 01 10:58:53 order off your boot menu Feb 01 11:00:42 daperl: You do not want him to crash and brick McDonalds, do you? Feb 01 11:02:01 too funny Feb 01 11:02:24 lol Feb 01 11:02:59 i cant make it set a default boot item Feb 01 11:05:18 Meizirkki: waiting for 0.7 images to build (i had fucked something up in the initial run i did last night), and if you have bw left enough i would love some testing Feb 01 11:05:38 ~cal-tool Feb 01 11:06:05 Stskeeps: okay Feb 01 11:06:06 RST38h, did you want me last night Feb 01 11:06:32 mornin btw, and ello Stskeeps Meizirkki etc Feb 01 11:07:08 morning lcuk :) Feb 01 11:08:03 lcuk: no, was just saying hi =) Feb 01 11:08:18 furry muff :) Feb 01 11:08:20 HURRAY Feb 01 11:08:33 SUCCESSFUL BOOT OF IMMC2 AT 5:08AM 02/01/08! Feb 01 11:09:08 whats goin down in mer town then - have we got a decent system now Feb 01 11:09:16 cool, night night Feb 01 11:09:24 lcuk: 0.7 coming out today, and yeah, it is more usable than 0.6 Feb 01 11:09:44 we have an xterm and such :P Feb 01 11:09:54 nice i saw jaffa has put h-i-m in, and something about the control panel - is that all modules? Feb 01 11:10:40 hildon application manager yeah, and control panel with the status bar applet config Feb 01 11:11:01 i'm not sure what API they have but it sure as hell could have been better.. :P Feb 01 11:11:40 its always a battle between desires and practicality Feb 01 11:11:48 um Feb 01 11:11:50 qwerty? Feb 01 11:11:56 xchat blinks way too much Feb 01 11:11:59 it's bad for my battery Feb 01 11:12:19 it it needs my attention, it should use a task notification Feb 01 11:12:24 not a blinking icon (two actually!) Feb 01 11:12:34 two? on maemo it's only one, i think Feb 01 11:12:41 nope,two Feb 01 11:12:42 That's the sort of thing that probably should be taken up with upstream Feb 01 11:12:44 on in status bar Feb 01 11:12:47 one in app list Feb 01 11:12:56 You can disable the status bar one Feb 01 11:13:08 do me a favor and file it? Feb 01 11:13:17 i can file it and have andre__ refile if you ask Feb 01 11:13:19 but i'd rather not Feb 01 11:13:54 are we gonna have xchat in the default install? Feb 01 11:13:55 :D Feb 01 11:13:55 well it isn't an official xchat hildonizing :P Feb 01 11:15:19 timeless_mer Feb 01 11:15:33 /query timeless_mer Feb 01 11:15:33 poke Feb 01 11:15:51 afk guys Feb 01 11:17:14 qwerty: what's a tray baloon Feb 01 11:17:18 and why can't i see it? Feb 01 11:18:19 Extremely annoying, believe me. You have to install some libnotify stuff to see them (never tried on tablet, did it in ubuntu and hated it). Feb 01 11:18:32 heh Feb 01 11:18:38 what repo has dosbox? Feb 01 11:18:59 extras i think Feb 01 11:19:15 hmm Feb 01 11:19:16 pupnik's build is on his site Feb 01 11:19:22 i have extras installed, but ...no dosbox Feb 01 11:19:43 http://pupnik.de/dosbox.html Feb 01 11:20:46 hmm Feb 01 11:20:52 how to install a deb locally, though. interesting... Feb 01 11:21:07 download and double click it? Feb 01 11:21:07 :P Feb 01 11:27:07 johnx: http://i.gizmodo.com/5143547/how+to-install-ubuntu-on-your-ps3-for-vintage-gaming-emulation <- another possibility for Mer/powerpc ;) Feb 01 11:27:54 lol Feb 01 11:40:18 AAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH Feb 01 11:40:32 why dont they build mobile devices WITH BUILT IN MATH-CO PROCESSORS?!?! Feb 01 11:40:40 it's called a floating point unit. Feb 01 11:40:42 they're slow? :P Feb 01 11:40:45 USE IT FOR GODS SAKE Feb 01 11:41:01 why do you want floating point? Feb 01 11:41:02 N8x0 has a vfp... Feb 01 11:41:10 virtual = sux0rs Feb 01 11:41:15 it needs a dedicated FPU. Feb 01 11:41:29 Stskeeps: that not true nowadays Feb 01 11:41:44 they have DSPs Feb 01 11:43:00 herz1: true, that was a totally unfounded statement from me :) Feb 01 11:43:20 so how are these fools on youtube running KDE on the N800? Feb 01 11:44:57 Livingroom: the "v" in vfp is not for virtual, please google before flaming Feb 01 11:45:24 v for ...vendetta? no. i googled; i see it means vector. what does that mean? Feb 01 11:47:39 it's dsp-ish? Feb 01 11:48:17 Livingroom: maybe the just replay a video recorded on the desktop? Feb 01 11:48:26 *they Feb 01 11:52:39 !!! Feb 01 11:52:46 fennec is in jaunty repo Feb 01 11:52:49 : Feb 01 11:52:52 ) Feb 01 11:56:31 if it's there, i don't see it Feb 01 11:56:35 is it not in user/ ? Feb 01 11:57:28 Probably not, I don't think jaunty people cater for h-a-m's needs Feb 01 11:58:15 aww, we need to fix that :) Feb 01 12:05:11 sp3001: how do i kill application manager when its stupid catalogs dialog is open but not responding? Feb 01 12:05:50 qwerty... Feb 01 12:05:56 You are connected to 1 IRC networks Feb 01 12:06:07 if it can't count to 1, it should use network(s) Feb 01 12:06:16 if it can, it should avoid showing the s :) Feb 01 12:12:53 * timeless tries to install fennec Feb 01 12:15:34 fennec in mer is just as crappy it's in maemo Feb 01 12:15:37 :( Feb 01 12:15:41 scrshots? Feb 01 12:16:00 sec Feb 01 12:17:04 Was it a surprise? :) Feb 01 12:17:55 RST38h: nope :P Feb 01 12:18:09 but it seems to be even worse Feb 01 12:18:25 font is really small... Feb 01 12:20:34 Stskeeps: couple of screenshots: http://trac.tspre.org/meiz Feb 01 12:20:34 They are releasing WinMobile version real soon now, so rejoice! =) Feb 01 12:21:09 * RST38h did make himself write initial 65816 emulation Feb 01 12:21:49 Meizirkki: mmkay Feb 01 12:22:32 btw what is roope? can we have it in diablo? =) Feb 01 12:23:12 last time i tried fennec on my n800 it kinda sucked Feb 01 12:29:14 show me, please, bootmenu config file for mer Feb 01 12:29:56 http://rafb.net/p/VgRhQq17.html Feb 01 12:30:06 thx Feb 01 12:31:19 ITEM_FSOPTIONS="noatime,ro" ??? Feb 01 12:31:22 yeah Feb 01 12:31:25 wtf? Feb 01 12:31:37 mounting the fs noatime and read-only like kernel does it Feb 01 12:32:08 who remounts in rw? Feb 01 12:32:29 the init scripts, when having done fsck Feb 01 12:32:44 k Feb 01 12:33:49 i'm still fighting with init :( Feb 01 12:34:18 i can't get text console right for some reason Feb 01 12:34:30 or it looks like i can't :) Feb 01 12:35:04 anyway, it doesn't boot Feb 01 12:35:35 gone for reboot Feb 01 12:47:59 hey everybody) Feb 01 12:48:13 wow... democrats have a 60/40 lead in the senate Feb 01 12:48:17 crazy Feb 01 12:48:26 frankin won? Feb 01 12:48:34 or the other one? Feb 01 12:49:15 the guy from NH Feb 01 12:49:19 it's chaaaange!!!11 Feb 01 12:49:22 haha Feb 01 12:49:27 holy fuck that is a huge senate lead Feb 01 12:49:36 not to mention the HoR Feb 01 12:49:45 hey awazd Feb 01 12:49:49 obama is going to be able to just streamline shit through Feb 01 12:49:50 Yes we can!11 Yes we caaannn!211 Feb 01 12:49:58 What Senate? Feb 01 12:50:07 there's only one that matters Feb 01 12:50:07 Ah, THAT Senate Feb 01 12:50:14 hahaha Feb 01 12:50:43 * RST38h gets some peanuts, popcorn, and prepares to watch the next season of this macabre soap opera Feb 01 12:50:47 democrats control 60 senate seats Feb 01 12:50:49 RST38h: heya :) Feb 01 12:50:58 that is outrageous Feb 01 12:51:12 got a url for this? Feb 01 12:51:15 i can't find it Feb 01 12:51:17 Macer: well just shows the republicans -really- fucked up :P Feb 01 12:52:09 or that your new dark-skinned (political correctness ;) ) leader has really good press Feb 01 12:52:18 btw, hello Feb 01 12:52:20 * wazd don't care bout US&A senate, wazd cares bout animated icons ) Feb 01 12:52:32 i'm watching it on c-span Feb 01 12:52:46 AStorm hahaha Feb 01 12:53:00 AStorm: "dark-skinned is offencive! Feb 01 12:53:12 Astorm: afro-american! Feb 01 12:53:19 whatever Feb 01 12:53:25 I could've said just black Feb 01 12:53:40 less offensive than you nearly saying "darkie" Feb 01 12:53:41 AStorm: Yes we can!11 Feb 01 12:53:43 xD Feb 01 12:54:47 soap: I think so too, some people actually think it *is* offensive to call someone black. Damned fascists. Feb 01 12:55:24 he hasn't got an afro, can't call him afro-american, what about skinhead, that can't be offensive? Feb 01 12:55:38 uhm, it can Feb 01 12:55:41 what do you call non american black people? Feb 01 12:55:50 mavhc: negroes? Feb 01 12:56:01 mavhc: I'd call them black or African, maybe negro? Feb 01 12:56:15 everyone's african Feb 01 12:56:31 mavhc: Even poor guys who happened to be born outside Africa? Feb 01 12:56:38 they were there longer, yes Feb 01 12:56:41 :> Feb 01 12:57:00 I prefer "human" Feb 01 12:57:14 mavhc: that is offensive too Feb 01 12:57:18 without the quotes, with is just wrong Feb 01 12:57:43 mavhc: it destroys one's heritage by using a race/nationality/etc neutral word Feb 01 12:58:05 yes, it sounds communist Feb 01 12:58:12 wow .. there really is NOTHING to watch on actual tv Feb 01 12:58:16 you're damned by that already Feb 01 12:58:23 Macer: welcome to 2001 Feb 01 12:58:26 i don't understand why networks aren't going bankrupt along with everybody else Feb 01 12:58:34 Sounds like "hummus" too. I feel offended now. Feb 01 12:58:37 people are retarded Feb 01 12:58:42 Macer: Give 'em time. Feb 01 12:58:47 50% of people have a 2 digit IQ for a start Feb 01 12:58:56 cspan2 has a guy that is so white.. he is making the things around him glow calling himself a "Muslim Historian" Feb 01 12:58:58 hahha Feb 01 12:59:16 At least one US senator is blue/silvery-skinned Feb 01 12:59:24 alien Feb 01 12:59:25 I wonder what you would call THAT Feb 01 12:59:34 smurf. Feb 01 12:59:34 :P Feb 01 12:59:48 he's a US senator? I'll bet on calling him and old white guy Feb 01 12:59:52 there are 5 white people... who are obviously not muslim.. sitting at a table all talking about their book Blind Spot Feb 01 12:59:52 Offensive to smurfs. Feb 01 13:00:08 obviously? Feb 01 13:00:09 which is about how people don't get Islam Feb 01 13:00:20 Macer: A moment, lemme locate that article... Feb 01 13:00:31 maybe they converted Feb 01 13:00:41 mavhc - like malcolm X? Feb 01 13:00:53 most white people of this caliber go to club fed Feb 01 13:01:05 i don't think there is much need for muslim conversion there in order to protect yourself Feb 01 13:01:28 mavhc: nah Feb 01 13:01:30 50% *can't* have 2-digit IQ Feb 01 13:01:32 or the scale would be broken Feb 01 13:01:34 IQ is relative Feb 01 13:01:36 to others in the same population Feb 01 13:01:37 what muslims need is a crazy spinoff religion where rich people pay Feb 01 13:01:44 about 20% are expected to have IQ of 100 Feb 01 13:01:52 +/- 5 Feb 01 13:01:59 AStorm: I'm using floating point Feb 01 13:02:01 have a bell curve ;P Feb 01 13:02:08 20 federal agencies are protecting the super bowl Feb 01 13:02:13 exactly, 50% above 100, 50% below Feb 01 13:02:18 Enjoy the good senator for now: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2297471.stm Feb 01 13:02:21 amazing Feb 01 13:02:24 yes, so? Feb 01 13:02:32 what's so super about this bowl anyway, does it stop your ceral getting soggy? Feb 01 13:02:33 with 100 being the expected average Feb 01 13:02:42 most people think they are smarter than average ;) Feb 01 13:02:48 and IQ precision is about 10 points Feb 01 13:02:52 of most tests Feb 01 13:02:57 99% of people surveyed thought they were better than average drivers Feb 01 13:03:00 you can have that much variance Feb 01 13:03:07 can you confirm that the ARM v6 cpu on the N800 is more powerful than a ARM v4 processor on a Freerunner ? they are both cadenced à 600Mhz Feb 01 13:03:13 s/à/at/ Feb 01 13:03:13 mavhc: idiots ;P the *average* is the average Feb 01 13:03:14 Zic meant: can you confirm that the ARM v6 cpu on the N800 is more powerful than a ARM v4 processor on a Freerunner ? they are both cadenced at 600Mhz Feb 01 13:03:18 i would figure that the NFL would pay for super bowl security Feb 01 13:03:22 not the taxpayers Feb 01 13:03:24 AStorm: is your point lots of people are exactly 100? Feb 01 13:03:25 mavhc: but it's the known individualistic delusion Feb 01 13:03:36 mavhc: lots are very close to 100 Feb 01 13:03:38 20 federal agencies for a football game? Feb 01 13:03:47 thanks to bell curve Feb 01 13:03:53 AStorm: 50% of those very close are below, 2 digits Feb 01 13:03:59 yes, so? Feb 01 13:04:07 as I said, IQ tests aren't precise enough Feb 01 13:04:10 so 50% of people have 2 digit iq Feb 01 13:04:10 Zic: I think n800 CPU is 400 MHz or something Feb 01 13:04:12 Macer: yes, in case someone shows a nipple Feb 01 13:04:20 you can never be too carefull Feb 01 13:04:25 wazd: yes it is, just a typo, sorry Feb 01 13:04:32 true, but 2-digit eq close to 100 doesn't tell you if a person is stupider than average Feb 01 13:04:34 too much noise Feb 01 13:04:43 NBC made 206M$ Feb 01 13:04:44 wazd: but performances are "visible" between v6 and v4 ? Feb 01 13:04:52 why aren't they paying for some of this crap ? Feb 01 13:05:49 (the expected range for most "average" people is 90-100-110) Feb 01 13:06:40 of course, if the test (different) is taken many times, the actual noise should average out Feb 01 13:06:48 and you get your own true value Feb 01 13:07:10 Macer: Enjoy: http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7031&IBLOCK_ID=35&phrase_id=20637 Feb 01 13:07:36 AStorm: 68.27% of people are between 84-116 Feb 01 13:07:44 yes Feb 01 13:07:55 close to 50 between 90 and 100 Feb 01 13:08:36 90 and 110 (stupid keyboard!) Feb 01 13:08:46 33% between 84 and 100 Feb 01 13:09:39 Zic: vfp ability prolly helps in some cases :P Feb 01 13:09:42 *you* might be there and think yourself above average ;P Feb 01 13:09:47 AStorm,mavhc: just want to point out that IQ value cannot be weighted against the whole population simply because you do not have the numbers for the whole population to get the mean from Feb 01 13:10:01 Stskeeps: vpf ability? Feb 01 13:10:04 RST38h: but we have representative groups, almost as good Feb 01 13:10:06 I.e. it may be weighted against some data computed some time ago, for some group of people Feb 01 13:10:11 yes Feb 01 13:10:13 RST38h: but we can have a confidence interval Feb 01 13:10:20 populational was considered at one time Feb 01 13:10:29 but it looked as if people were getting dumber with time Feb 01 13:10:39 so they threw the idea out the window Feb 01 13:10:47 Zic: http://syslog.movial.fi/archives/46-N800-VFP-or-not-to-VFP.html Feb 01 13:10:51 (as in, old people = stupid) Feb 01 13:10:56 which armv4t doesn't have, AFAIK Feb 01 13:11:01 and they noticed a few sharp jumps in IQ too Feb 01 13:11:04 AStorm: Well, the amount of IQ given to Earthlings by the Wise Tentacled One is constant while the population is constantly increasing... Feb 01 13:11:09 (in age groups) Feb 01 13:11:24 uh, no Feb 01 13:11:50 actually, using older measures of IQ, it's increasing slowly, linearly Feb 01 13:11:55 Macer: BTW, I can personally sign under each word of that article. It does look gross if you haven't watched it for a while. Feb 01 13:12:21 but there were a bunch of spikes (both up and down) Feb 01 13:12:44 that's why now IQ is measured in age groups, not whole population Feb 01 13:13:25 some people tried to prove that race determines IQ... actually, they failed Feb 01 13:13:31 environment does though Feb 01 13:13:38 (a bit) Feb 01 13:14:08 AStorm: Let us just assume that the gradual increase in Earth's global IQ is a product of Tentacled One's gastrointestinary processes Feb 01 13:14:24 that's why you can expect an average Afro-american to score similarly to slums White. Feb 01 13:14:25 really need more ram in internet tablets, does it affect battery life? Feb 01 13:14:38 RST38h: or global warming ;P Feb 01 13:14:43 mavhc: try compcache! Feb 01 13:14:46 AStorm: Which leads us to a simple solution Feb 01 13:14:54 mavhc: it shouldn't affect battery life a whole lot Feb 01 13:15:14 I'd expect 2-3% Feb 01 13:15:15 needs more ram then, anyone good at soldering? :-) Feb 01 13:15:28 AStorm: By feeding part of the world population to the Tentacled One, we both decrease population and increase His gastrointestinary activity thus increasing avreage human's IQ Feb 01 13:15:31 mavhc: uhhh, OMAP 2 doesn't support more I think Feb 01 13:15:42 You'd have to wire in a controller Feb 01 13:15:46 ah Feb 01 13:15:50 mavhc: you are screwed there, I am afraid...it is integrated into one of the chips Feb 01 13:15:52 RST38h: prove it Feb 01 13:16:02 also, who is that Tentacled One (I know the True Name) Feb 01 13:16:04 ;P Feb 01 13:16:13 when they say all-in-one chip, they mean it then Feb 01 13:16:13 RST38h: it's not Feb 01 13:16:25 it's a separate DRAM chip, controller *is* integrated though Feb 01 13:16:38 but, you could abuse Linux Feb 01 13:16:45 have RAM look like flash chip Feb 01 13:16:52 then, use it for swapping Feb 01 13:17:01 people actually did that Feb 01 13:17:05 a literal ram disk Feb 01 13:17:09 yes Feb 01 13:17:36 Stskeeps: thanks, but even if VFP or not VFP... :) A friend told me that the ARM v4 processor on the Freerunner is really slower than the ARM v6 (without speak about software influence, just hardware theory) Feb 01 13:17:45 AStorm: Heres is the canonical image of the Tentacled One *explaining* a few technical details to Nokia engineers: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/absurdopedia/images/8/8b/Wageslave_large.jpg Feb 01 13:17:46 mavhc: btw, try compcache already Feb 01 13:17:54 (ARM v6 which is on N8*0 IT) Feb 01 13:17:59 without software all cpus are limited to 9.8m/s/s Feb 01 13:18:54 mavhc: limited to what? Feb 01 13:18:56 AStorm: Well, if I understand GAN's explanation correctly, it is an integrated DRAM+NAND chip Feb 01 13:18:59 Zic: i wasn't positively impressed by the freerunner when spending some days nearby it Feb 01 13:19:07 AStorm: So, no hope upgrading it Feb 01 13:19:12 limited to gravity Feb 01 13:19:13 RST38h: it is, but that doesn't stop you from adding another one Feb 01 13:19:15 :P Feb 01 13:19:31 RST38h: except that RAM controller supports 256 MB afaicr Feb 01 13:19:36 RST38h: they are not *integrated* they are *stacked* - omap + dram + nand on top of each others Feb 01 13:19:36 (but flash does support much more) Feb 01 13:19:58 yes Feb 01 13:20:05 of course, you can't rip out any Feb 01 13:20:06 :P Feb 01 13:20:15 Stskeeps: ah ! you are interesting me, what's your opinion about Freerunner ? (in comparaison with N8*0 IT, because I'm hesitating to sell my Nokia IT because I order a Freerunner recently) Feb 01 13:20:17 but, there are spare pins Feb 01 13:20:32 suihkul: From the point of view of a guy with a soldering iron, that is integrated =) Feb 01 13:20:46 Zic: i'd keep the NIT personally and only buy freerunner if you want to hack things on to it Feb 01 13:20:46 RST38h: yes, *but* you can add another chip. Feb 01 13:20:54 exactly one another chip :P Feb 01 13:20:54 if you want an actual usable phone, get a cheap nokia :P Feb 01 13:21:12 Freerunner is pretty useless as a consumer device Feb 01 13:21:19 NIT is actually useful Feb 01 13:21:23 RST38h: not that it'd be easy, adding traces to the CPU Feb 01 13:21:32 Stskeeps: I own an HTC Touch, and yes, it runs Windows Mobile ;-( Feb 01 13:21:35 actually, I'd call it "bloody hard" Feb 01 13:21:48 or "nigh-impossible" Feb 01 13:21:59 RST38h: but NIT does not have any GSM modem ;-) Feb 01 13:22:00 depending on your skill with adding sockets and availability of reflow Feb 01 13:22:14 and I don't want to use my Freerunner as an Internet device, just a beta phone Feb 01 13:22:16 Zic: next one will have hsdpa Feb 01 13:22:22 hallo :) Feb 01 13:22:26 meh, even a socket won't do, unless you make one Feb 01 13:22:27 (I kept my HTC Touch for every days phone) Feb 01 13:22:27 johnx: hi Feb 01 13:22:43 Zic: in term of openness and such, HTC touch is probably even more useful than freerunner :P Feb 01 13:22:45 (even if it runs the *evil* Windows Mobile) Feb 01 13:22:56 Stskeeps: you are right :P Feb 01 13:23:10 mavhc: so, you're most likely out of luck here Feb 01 13:23:10 mavhc: you'd have to add a few traces to CPU pins Feb 01 13:23:26 mavhc: for now, try out compcache to save some RAM at CPU time cost Feb 01 13:23:29 Zic: A cheap slim Samsung will save your day Feb 01 13:23:40 btw, could someone package that kernel module? Feb 01 13:23:41 Stskeeps: about the hsdpa, just 3,5G connection, or GSM too ? Feb 01 13:23:42 Zic: At a really competitive cost too Feb 01 13:24:25 Zic: i suspect gsm too, else always-on is kinda bad :P Feb 01 13:24:54 RST38h: I have one cheap slim Samsung myself :P Feb 01 13:25:12 this U700 has a nasty habit of USB hanging after you use bluetooth Feb 01 13:25:21 and a few weird touch buttons Feb 01 13:25:26 Stskeeps: I don't like GSM modem (even if I need a phone...), just a cellular data connection an not a GSM will be fine Feb 01 13:25:27 other than that, it's fine Feb 01 13:25:36 Zic: GPRS is GSM .. Feb 01 13:25:36 :P Feb 01 13:25:39 AStorm: ah who care about USB on it... Feb 01 13:25:41 cares Feb 01 13:25:48 RST38h: I do, when I connect it to the laptop Feb 01 13:25:51 to use as a modem Feb 01 13:25:58 bluetooth is limited too 300 kbps or so Feb 01 13:26:01 AStorm: It just has to call and provide GPRS over BT Feb 01 13:26:02 *to Feb 01 13:26:08 yes Feb 01 13:26:14 but BT is too slow for some reason Feb 01 13:26:23 I don't know why, it does support all the fast protocols Feb 01 13:26:47 Stskeeps: hmm, afaik, HSPDPA exists without GSM modem (?) Feb 01 13:26:53 Zic: yeah, probably Feb 01 13:26:53 You can probably get a slim S40-based Nokia or an E51 for the same purpose Feb 01 13:26:55 GSM != GPRS Feb 01 13:26:57 But it will be more expensive Feb 01 13:27:04 just saying that it would be useful to include 2G in 3G chipset :P Feb 01 13:27:17 Sts: Isn't it there by default? Feb 01 13:27:18 Stskeeps: that was mentioned to be in next NIT Feb 01 13:27:29 to make normal calls Feb 01 13:27:35 RST38h: need not be, but may Feb 01 13:27:39 Stskeeps: size of NIT are not very confortable to make normal call :) Feb 01 13:27:41 RST38h: not sure. people were pissed off to not have 2g access on iphone 3g i think Feb 01 13:27:44 actually, the difference is software Feb 01 13:27:46 i'm not talking about calls. Feb 01 13:27:48 i'm talking about data. Feb 01 13:28:00 Stskeeps: that would be stupid on Apple part Feb 01 13:28:09 as the only difference is modulation Feb 01 13:28:19 and turbo symbols Feb 01 13:28:28 (not used in EDGE) Feb 01 13:29:13 no, hypothetic GSM modem for the next NIT or next NIT+1 ? Feb 01 13:29:18 s/no/so/ Feb 01 13:29:18 Zic meant: so, hypothetic GSM modem for the next NIT or next NIT+1 ? Feb 01 13:29:20 Sts: iPhone is a different animal Feb 01 13:30:01 Zic: yes, I think it was confirmed officially even? Feb 01 13:30:07 for the next one Feb 01 13:30:58 hi Feb 01 13:31:08 lo rzr Feb 01 13:31:11 some links are broken on mer 0.7 page Feb 01 13:31:15 yes, i know Feb 01 13:31:18 ok Feb 01 13:31:19 it's in the process of being released Feb 01 13:31:26 ok great Feb 01 13:31:30 i'll review it soon Feb 01 13:31:34 i was delayed by a freaking race condition Feb 01 13:31:41 AStorm: for the codenamed unofficially by the community "N900" ? I just heard about a "cellular data connection thanks to HSDPA, but nothing about a GSM modem Feb 01 13:31:48 (if somebody can confirm...) Feb 01 13:32:03 Stskeeps: take your time Feb 01 13:32:16 maybe N900+1 will come with a GSM modem ? :P Feb 01 13:32:25 Zic: it has to support those distress calls Feb 01 13:32:29 so, definitely GSM Feb 01 13:32:43 maybe hardcoded, but still Feb 01 13:32:44 Zic: It will have to have GSM Feb 01 13:32:49 * Jucato will diea of jealousy if the next IT will have built-in GSM features... Feb 01 13:32:49 oh, ok Feb 01 13:32:51 thanks ;) Feb 01 13:32:56 AStorm: N900 does not have to support distress calls Feb 01 13:33:03 AStorm: Because it is not a phone Feb 01 13:33:10 RST38h: i'm really really starting to wonder if they are making it into a phone Feb 01 13:33:14 hmm, but canibal issue into Nokia : N97 and "N900" ? both phones ? Feb 01 13:33:16 the pre-alphas are showing -really- weird stuff Feb 01 13:33:22 in some parts of the world, it is required for any device with call functionality Feb 01 13:33:29 using GSM networks Feb 01 13:33:36 AStorm: OTOH, as they will most likely use the same baseband hw as used in their phones, it will most likely have GSM Feb 01 13:33:40 yes Feb 01 13:33:42 that too :) Feb 01 13:33:57 even if they don't implement it fully, we'll have a nice hacking ground Feb 01 13:33:59 * RST38h suspects voice calling will be disabled though, 2G or 3G Feb 01 13:34:11 rsalveti: disabled on software ? Feb 01 13:34:16 or hardware ? Feb 01 13:34:16 RST38h: unlikely, I suspect it will be done fully in hardware Feb 01 13:34:27 as a special soundcard or such Feb 01 13:34:38 much easier than writing the software Feb 01 13:34:53 because if hardware supports 2G and/or 3G and does not have software function to work, maybe some hackers can... hack :) Feb 01 13:34:54 hope they will describe it enough Feb 01 13:37:06 AStorm: Normally, it is done on a separate chip (usually 50-90MHz ARM) that is provided by another manufacturer Feb 01 13:37:35 AStorm: Connected through I2C or a similar bus and talking AT command set, for most features Feb 01 13:37:38 there's a BB5 in the tablets already, probably not that difficult :P Feb 01 13:40:13 have we got some infos of the release date for the next NIT ? Feb 01 13:40:33 Zic: summer 2009, approximately Feb 01 13:40:42 Zic: Check iTT for all the other rumors Feb 01 13:40:51 oh, I already check :D Feb 01 13:40:57 * RST38h is out, picking flowersss Feb 01 13:41:04 :) Feb 01 13:41:18 RST38h: yes, but what about audio IO? Feb 01 13:41:42 :) Feb 01 13:52:26 RST38h: do you think that, even if software does not support it, with installing third-software like Zhone, we will can make calls with the next NIT so ? Feb 01 13:53:23 yOu could install skype! Feb 01 13:53:55 Well, at least you could for the n800/n810 :) Feb 01 13:55:05 Skype is evil, like my actual Windows Mobile phone ;-) Feb 01 13:55:38 but I could configure my tablet as a VoIP phone only too, yeah :P Feb 01 13:56:47 skype on n8x0 keeps me and the fiancée close when she's abroad Feb 01 13:56:49 it's really nice :) Feb 01 13:57:39 (you use the word "fiancée" in english ? huhu) Feb 01 13:58:07 i'm a dane :P Feb 01 13:58:16 and I'm french :) Feb 01 14:00:05 "English doesn't borrow from other languages, it mugs them in dark alleys and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar." Feb 01 14:00:44 morning johnx Feb 01 14:01:58 isn't the accent on the last e? Feb 01 14:02:13 But yes, we import french words Feb 01 14:02:22 Naïve ... Feb 01 14:02:41 timelE61i: I know for somes words, like we import english words in french, but not for "fiancée" or "naïve" Feb 01 14:02:55 and the accent is on the first e, yes :) Feb 01 14:02:58 Coöperate (although rarely properly written? Feb 01 14:03:41 * timelE61i isn't certain about that word's heritage Feb 01 14:04:12 we have the verb coopérer in french... but not coöperate word Feb 01 14:04:16 johnx: waiting for 770 build, been a little delayed due to a stupid race condition in NFS + imager Feb 01 14:04:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin Feb 01 14:04:49 wnd: oh, I don't know about this page :) Feb 01 14:07:00 Stskeeps, sounds awesome. I'm definitely going to kick the zaurus hardware support and imager into shape for feb15 Feb 01 14:07:26 ok, seems we inserted the accent on our own, but i'd assume the word root came from the french Feb 01 14:10:30 johnx: got early vmdk and n800 tar.gz if you wanna test quickly Feb 01 14:10:36 770 takes a bit of time so Feb 01 14:14:14 Stskeeps, grabbing the .tar.gz, eating curry+rice :) Feb 01 14:14:32 what tar.gz? :P Feb 01 14:14:54 the one you'll tell me about? :D Feb 01 14:15:01 ah, yes Feb 01 14:15:35 we so need an animation between the dialogs.. Feb 01 14:15:45 yup, I can do that. Feb 01 14:15:57 I'm probably going to refactor that script O_O; Feb 01 14:16:00 hehe Feb 01 14:16:06 it's a little unwieldy Feb 01 14:19:11 * Stskeeps notes idly that checking for packages update time is inversely proportional to the amount of packages it shows Feb 01 14:22:55 Stskeeps: that would point to the discarding algorithm being somewhat flawed. Feb 01 14:23:56 gomiam: well, Hildon Application Manager is not built for showing all the Ubuntu packages :) Feb 01 14:24:05 oh XD Feb 01 14:24:07 http://www.nokian900.com/nokia-n900-internet-tablet-rumors/#more-15 Feb 01 14:24:22 don't know his source but he say : Nokia N900 will have support for Quad-band GSM, HSDPA, WiMAX, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. Feb 01 14:24:29 "Quad-band GSM" Feb 01 14:24:46 Zic, that makes sense Feb 01 14:24:52 * Zic take a look at his Freerunner order Feb 01 14:24:57 hmm :> Feb 01 14:25:09 I've never heard of an HSPA chipset that didn't also support GSM/GRPS... Feb 01 14:25:29 johnx: in somes old pre-netbook family, yes it exists Feb 01 14:25:36 success on VMDK, N8x0 image Feb 01 14:25:38 , rootstrap Feb 01 14:25:39 but in a portable device, you are right Feb 01 14:26:36 wonder if we'll see wimax in the same device as HSPA... Feb 01 14:26:57 doubtful re wimax.. unless they put in a software defined radio or something Feb 01 14:26:58 :P Feb 01 14:27:05 (which would be leet, btw. :P) Feb 01 14:27:12 acually, that page looks more like a wishlist... Feb 01 14:27:29 or a adsite Feb 01 14:27:44 yes. it looks like that too Feb 01 14:28:59 I think I'm most curious about form factor and price at this point Feb 01 14:29:02 johnx: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Releases/0.7 btw - impressive what has happened in 14 days :P Feb 01 14:29:31 it only took 14 days to make the page blank? Feb 01 14:29:40 wtf. Feb 01 14:29:41 not again. Feb 01 14:29:44 ctrl-f5 :P Feb 01 14:29:55 yeah, shift-control-r Feb 01 14:29:58 or ctrl-r :P Feb 01 14:30:05 ctrl-r didn't cut it Feb 01 14:30:54 maemo.org messing up i thin Feb 01 14:30:55 k Feb 01 14:31:23 we really have no luck with our hosting, huh? Feb 01 14:31:47 hey, last open source project i had was cursed. it bankrupted the hosting companies Feb 01 14:31:51 :P Feb 01 14:31:54 O_o Feb 01 14:32:09 heh...but then again, it was somewhat popular :) Feb 01 14:32:11 no clue why but i have seen quite a big deal of bankruptcies in donated hosting Feb 01 14:33:06 imagine that Feb 01 14:33:16 and it seemed like such a solid business plan, too :) Feb 01 14:33:23 "As Nokia N800 and Nokia N810 were criticized about the big sizes, it seems the N900 will be a bit smaller, just like iPhone, with a 3.5″ display." Feb 01 14:33:32 hmm Feb 01 14:33:35 Zic, that's an adsite Feb 01 14:33:42 probable bullshit :P Feb 01 14:33:57 johnx: I know, but just imagine :) Feb 01 14:34:02 who criticized it? it fits in your pocket, qed Feb 01 14:34:20 NIT will become just smartphones... Feb 01 14:34:25 one day ;) Feb 01 14:34:32 mavhc, well, lots of people said it was too big to hold up to your face and make calls with Feb 01 14:34:45 Zic, well, they are changing the name... Feb 01 14:34:48 it's not a phone, stop holding it up to your face you plonker Feb 01 14:35:03 * Stskeeps uses headset extensively Feb 01 14:35:06 works a lot better Feb 01 14:35:08 tablet in pocket Feb 01 14:35:18 mavhc, the next one will likely be making calls at least... Feb 01 14:35:31 Stskeeps, are you one of those people who wander everywhere with a bt headset in your ear? Feb 01 14:35:51 johnx: no, n800-provided headphones Feb 01 14:36:01 but that's just when i'm on the road Feb 01 14:36:16 Any hardware deails bout n900 are 99% crap) Feb 01 14:36:27 johnx: better than walk around with a phone on your ear Feb 01 14:36:31 details Feb 01 14:37:09 mavhc, but I mean *all the time.* There were people at my last job who put them in in the morning and took them out before bed Feb 01 14:37:18 I assume they took them out anyways... Feb 01 14:37:30 borg people Feb 01 14:37:31 :P Feb 01 14:37:33 cybermen Feb 01 14:37:40 did they have 2? Feb 01 14:37:40 ex-military O_o Feb 01 14:37:44 borg. Feb 01 14:37:45 :P Feb 01 14:37:52 ;) Feb 01 14:38:02 hey, he got stuff *done* and no mistake Feb 01 14:38:20 but you can never tell if he was talking to you or to the voices in his head... Feb 01 14:38:23 hehe Feb 01 14:38:28 About the storage, Nokia may have 16GB internal storage capacity, as well as a miniSDHC slot to extend it to your needs. Feb 01 14:38:35 who wrote that?) Feb 01 14:38:38 well as long as he was turning a good profit from the voices in the head.. Feb 01 14:38:39 so really what you want is a big flashing light on his head when he's online Feb 01 14:38:41 wazd, how about 32GB and microSDHC :) Feb 01 14:38:49 minisd is dead Feb 01 14:38:54 The web browsing will be done using an Internet Browser from Opera, supporting all common standards. Feb 01 14:38:57 .... Feb 01 14:38:58 wtf Feb 01 14:39:14 wazd, that's what triggered my bullshit meter :) Feb 01 14:39:15 The author of that site is a total dumbass) Feb 01 14:39:30 wazd, but he's making money off ads for sure :) Feb 01 14:39:37 lo b-man Feb 01 14:39:51 go and click all his ads a lot, trigger the fraud detector Feb 01 14:39:56 mavhc, I guess I should get my own borg goggles and some detectors so I can tell who is talking on the phone... Feb 01 14:39:59 hey, Stskeeps :) Feb 01 14:40:12 johnx: ads? I saw no ads... ooops, got Adblock :P Feb 01 14:40:50 gomiam, I only block ads when they piss me off...but when I do I block the whole domain. It's kind of a survival of the least annoying competition :) Feb 01 14:41:35 johnx: you allot too much time to ad-blocking. I haven't got enough braincells for that ;) Feb 01 14:42:12 gomiam, my workflow looks like this: ad blinks -> right click -> block -> select domain -> ok Feb 01 14:42:39 takes about 5 seconds and I only had to block 10-20 domains before there weren't any blinking ads left :) Feb 01 14:42:45 johnx: I have a click disability, you insensitive clod! ;) Feb 01 14:42:55 If the only ads on the internet were Google's text adsense ones, then I wouldn't be using adblock Feb 01 14:42:56 get over yourself then Feb 01 14:43:22 qwerty12_N800: except when there's so many there's no blank space to click Feb 01 14:43:42 in that case the site is a lost cause :) just like people who do layout in flash Feb 01 14:43:44 mavhc, hmm, good point Feb 01 14:44:07 oh, iphone will get sort of flash at last) Feb 01 14:44:11 true, true Feb 01 14:44:15 maybe nextgen Feb 01 14:44:33 (&*$% flash Feb 01 14:44:42 why can maemo do flash but apple said iphone couldn't? Feb 01 14:44:56 mavhc, nokia paid up. apple didn't Feb 01 14:45:18 mavhc: couldn't or... wouldn't? Feb 01 14:45:25 also, apple probably had an internal beta of flash and found it ran too slow Feb 01 14:46:01 oR hot :) Feb 01 14:46:25 Flash is bad for battery life Feb 01 14:46:34 if apple saw the flash performance on the n8x0 they'd probably say 'better nothing than something this slow.' That's the apple 'think different' mentality: better to give people no solution, than an 80% solution Feb 01 14:47:35 cathedral view Feb 01 14:47:42 Apple knew they could direct the market and vendors would cater to apple Feb 01 14:47:51 It happened Feb 01 14:48:05 johnx: well, I woudn't say that they are completely wrong with this) Feb 01 14:48:14 yeah. i bet adobe is kicking themselves now for not managing to make apple license flash for 10 million freaking phones Feb 01 14:48:17 Why waste money confusing the market w/ multiple incomplete paths Feb 01 14:49:23 in this case, I do agree with apple: flash on the desktop is an 80% solution at best. flash on mobile stuff isn't worth it Feb 01 14:49:51 how's gnash doing? Feb 01 14:51:08 looks ok. I wonder if it's fast enough to play youtube videos on ARM... Feb 01 14:51:36 what codec does the flash video on youtube use? Feb 01 14:52:23 flv Feb 01 14:52:35 that's a container Feb 01 14:52:38 Not a codec Feb 01 14:52:42 ah, then I have no idea :) Feb 01 14:55:33 historically it was vp6 Feb 01 14:56:46 (people could read the wikipedia article, it's faster than waiting for it to d/l to my phone's browser) Feb 01 14:57:28 nowadays flash vids still use vp6 Feb 01 14:57:48 most of the time Feb 01 14:58:20 there's no post h264 codec in flash 10 anyway Feb 01 14:58:40 mhm Feb 01 14:58:51 ok, people Feb 01 14:58:58 I need someone to build me compcache Feb 01 14:59:03 the kernel module and tools Feb 01 14:59:06 just to test it Feb 01 15:00:00 http://code.google.com/p/compcache/ Feb 01 15:00:11 any volunteer? Feb 01 15:00:17 I think newer stuff used h264 instead of vp6 Feb 01 15:00:28 timelE61i: hmm, no Feb 01 15:00:33 you *can* use h264 Feb 01 15:00:39 vp6 is still the default Feb 01 15:00:57 h264 is very hard on CPUs, so not widely used, if anywhere Feb 01 15:01:47 its used on ipods and psp Feb 01 15:01:56 those are widely used Feb 01 15:01:56 in flash? Feb 01 15:02:07 no, but that codec Feb 01 15:02:07 ^ Feb 01 15:02:11 yes yes Feb 01 15:02:26 but they have powerful dedicated hardware decoders Feb 01 15:02:44 dEdicated hardware at times is a myth Feb 01 15:03:08 yes, sometimes Feb 01 15:03:17 might be fast software implementation on a DSP Feb 01 15:03:30 still, fast Feb 01 15:03:37 oR horribly slow/unusable hardware impl Feb 01 15:03:51 * timelE61i silently grumbles @ti Feb 01 15:03:55 h264 is demanding though Feb 01 15:04:14 oh sure Feb 01 15:04:24 http://code.google.com/p/compcache/wiki/Performance - let me have it Feb 01 15:04:27 please? Feb 01 15:04:27 bUt it's shiny Feb 01 15:04:45 AStorm, sure. I'll build it for zaurus-akita 2.6.28 Feb 01 15:05:20 johnx: what about building it for maemo's 2.6.21? Feb 01 15:05:31 AStorm, eh. I'm happy with 128MB of RAM Feb 01 15:05:35 2.6.21-nokia-omap that is Feb 01 15:05:52 johnx: I'm not with 256 MB, I tend to open a few pages, start a few apps Feb 01 15:05:57 thus, compcache would help Feb 01 15:06:05 ah, you should install scratchbox Feb 01 15:06:42 yes, I should. Feb 01 15:06:51 But it's work and I still don't have the time Feb 01 15:07:03 less IRC :) Feb 01 15:07:03 holidays come in a few weeks Feb 01 15:07:13 I think I'll need a few days to get it started Feb 01 15:07:21 Stskeeps: i seem to be having an error with bzr commit -m; http://pastebin.ca/1324496 Feb 01 15:07:24 IRC takes close to 0 time, it is possible to interleave :P Feb 01 15:07:37 multitasking and all Feb 01 15:07:54 b-man: cd merinstaller; then try? :P Feb 01 15:07:57 AStorm, you have an ubuntu box or a machine that runs vmware? Feb 01 15:08:10 oh :P Feb 01 15:08:39 johnx: the latter, but no huge bandwidth Feb 01 15:08:44 and no ISO d/led yet Feb 01 15:09:04 I'll take one shot at it? you sure it's ok building against 2.6.21? Feb 01 15:09:11 3 Mbit and 6GB transfer limit Feb 01 15:09:23 johnx: not sure, it's likely it won't Feb 01 15:09:32 but it doesn't use advanced stuff anyway Feb 01 15:09:34 so might workd Feb 01 15:09:37 *work Feb 01 15:09:53 need someone to try and possibly send me error output Feb 01 15:10:02 I'll know what to fix and will send the patch Feb 01 15:10:34 ok, I'll give it a quick shot Feb 01 15:10:44 but only cause you said please earlire :) Feb 01 15:11:06 :D Feb 01 15:36:05 Stskeeps: i'm getting a similar error with bzr :( Feb 01 15:36:33 hmmm...the psion netbook pro sure looks interesting :D Feb 01 15:36:48 johnx: so, what about your quick shot at building? Feb 01 15:37:07 AStorm, bleh :P still working on getting a nokia kernel compiled Feb 01 15:37:23 you don't have to Feb 01 15:37:30 just make prepare Feb 01 15:37:47 well, if I'm going to do this, there are modules I want for myself anyways :) Feb 01 15:37:48 be sure to set the options for n810 or copy .config Feb 01 15:37:54 ah Feb 01 15:37:56 :> Feb 01 15:38:02 ah, n810 or n800 doesn't matter, right? Feb 01 15:38:12 it does a bit Feb 01 15:38:23 not for compcache though Feb 01 15:38:29 ok, good Feb 01 15:38:39 I thought n800 and n810 shared a kernel image? Feb 01 15:38:43 compcache is a filesystem, so no special internal stuff Feb 01 15:38:45 they don't Feb 01 15:38:53 many low-level things are different Feb 01 15:39:09 new linux-omap might support that, not sure Feb 01 15:39:16 but that one definitely doesn't Feb 01 15:40:15 AStorm, have you looked at any of the execute in place stuff? Feb 01 15:41:00 flash is too slow for that, and you can only do that from the NAND flash Feb 01 15:41:11 as a bonus, you'll lose wear levelling *if* it works Feb 01 15:41:18 so, no, didn't bother Feb 01 15:41:34 lose wear leveling *totally* or just make it less effective? Feb 01 15:42:03 EIP is for ext2 in memory or fast flash that looks like memory Feb 01 15:42:22 or ROM Feb 01 15:42:22 ah, what about the new one connected to UBIFS? (IIRC) Feb 01 15:42:32 no idea. Feb 01 15:42:44 I didn't bother, it won't be any faster than flash itself anyway Feb 01 15:43:24 the most important point is that the filesystem has too look like memory Feb 01 15:43:33 uhm, s/filesystem/block device/ Feb 01 15:43:57 ah, so directly randomly addressed? Feb 01 15:44:11 yes Feb 01 15:44:35 there is a flash driver that does simulate memory Feb 01 15:44:37 alright, this kernel build should go fast, then I'll try the module Feb 01 15:44:51 but it doesn't do wear levelling I think Feb 01 15:44:56 maybe UBIFS does Feb 01 15:45:00 still - pointless Feb 01 15:45:05 as you have to load the data anyway Feb 01 15:45:19 you lose just one copy to ram Feb 01 15:45:24 and file caching Feb 01 15:45:33 (EIP fs is not cached) Feb 01 15:45:51 I'm thinking about my poor little zaurus that's under a lot more memory pressure than the n800... Feb 01 15:46:09 yes, it has half the RAM Feb 01 15:46:22 yeah. and swapping to SD is no fun Feb 01 15:46:23 I probably couldn't even run the apps I do on n810 Feb 01 15:46:29 definitely not Feb 01 15:46:33 even with tricks Feb 01 15:46:46 it's pretty bogged down just running hildon-desktop Feb 01 15:46:52 :> Feb 01 15:47:00 Nokia 770 also has 128 MB Feb 01 15:47:09 nope. 64MB Feb 01 15:47:10 I'm trying to figure out the best swap settings Feb 01 15:47:16 ah Feb 01 15:47:21 wait Feb 01 15:47:31 we have... 128 MB here or... Feb 01 15:47:34 I shall check Feb 01 15:47:39 N8x0 is 128MB Feb 01 15:47:50 128 MB too on n810 Feb 01 15:47:53 yeah Feb 01 15:47:54 770 and (most of the) zauruses are 64MB Feb 01 15:48:00 :P Feb 01 15:48:03 really we need smaller apps, they're too bloated Feb 01 15:48:17 risc os on arm has 600k DTP programs Feb 01 15:48:22 mavhc, volunteering to do some optimizing? some rewriting? Feb 01 15:48:25 mavhc: make me a smaller web browser *now*! Feb 01 15:48:32 does risc os have a web browser? Feb 01 15:48:32 fully featured Feb 01 15:48:37 ^^ Feb 01 15:48:44 irc client can't get much smaller than irssi Feb 01 15:48:46 it has 6 Feb 01 15:48:49 though xchat is fairly small Feb 01 15:49:00 mavhc, and they show google maps well? Feb 01 15:49:02 we could slim the environment some Feb 01 15:49:09 only the firefox port I expect Feb 01 15:49:22 mavhc: which probably eats as much ram as it does here ;P Feb 01 15:49:34 alright, that's *more* bloated than browsers for arm linux Feb 01 15:49:37 we could use uclibc Feb 01 15:49:45 that should save quite a bit of ram Feb 01 15:49:50 at least we have midori and tear Feb 01 15:49:55 :> Feb 01 15:50:10 did jaffa every get round to the netsurf port? Feb 01 15:50:11 and even tablet browser UI + gecko is lots lighter than firefox Feb 01 15:50:34 sooo, maybe the RiscOS guys should look at getting some less bloated apps... Feb 01 15:50:40 :P Feb 01 15:50:56 heck, fennec is the epitome of bloated Feb 01 15:51:57 johnx: 64 MB just doesn't cut it for most modern software Feb 01 15:52:00 johnx: there's not up to date native apps, netsurf, which doesn't have JS, and a ff port Feb 01 15:52:05 even with a tiny desktop env Feb 01 15:52:31 kernel grabs, let's say, 8 MB Feb 01 15:52:38 AStorm, yeah, the modern software is mostly ok. the web browser is the killer Feb 01 15:52:49 indeed, or maemo-mapper Feb 01 15:53:02 mavhc, it's silly to talk about RiscOS vs Linux unless you're talking feature vs feature Feb 01 15:53:03 and the email app (excluding mutt) Feb 01 15:53:06 don't see why videocenter, canola, etc, can't be 1MB Feb 01 15:53:13 canola is Python Feb 01 15:53:27 if rewritten in C, using same libs, it'd be about 1/3 the size Feb 01 15:53:37 right now it's like, 20 MB? Feb 01 15:53:41 shit Feb 01 15:53:43 and it has a lot of graphics Feb 01 15:53:46 just went on a wii zelda binge Feb 01 15:53:48 haha Feb 01 15:53:50 johnx: latest firefox is almost usable Feb 01 15:54:01 Meizirkki: on 64 MB? really? Feb 01 15:54:02 :P Feb 01 15:54:04 nope Feb 01 15:54:06 128 Feb 01 15:54:10 bought the game almost 6 months ago and decided to start playing it today Feb 01 15:54:12 fennec is Feb 01 15:54:12 lol Feb 01 15:54:27 (though rendering sometimes is slow, they have to improve the ui) Feb 01 15:54:47 mavhc, I don't see how. even mplayer is 4.5MB... Feb 01 15:55:42 johnx: sorry to interupt but could you help me with this? http://pastebin.ca/1324532 Feb 01 15:55:45 johnx: that's true :P Feb 01 15:56:07 fitting canola UI + mplayer into 8 MB is certainly possible Feb 01 15:56:18 canola UI + scanner Feb 01 15:56:50 assuming not overly large graphics Feb 01 15:57:10 b-man, ls -a /usr/libexec/dev/sorce/deb/merinstaller Feb 01 15:57:20 b-man, is that the folder that has the .bzr directory in it? Feb 01 15:57:24 k Feb 01 15:57:49 .bzr? - do i need to make one? Feb 01 15:57:55 no Feb 01 15:57:58 you use bzr clone Feb 01 15:58:06 unless you want to start a new repo Feb 01 15:58:12 then, bzr init afaicr Feb 01 15:58:25 yeah that's right Feb 01 15:58:32 what is bzr get an alias for? Feb 01 15:58:37 * johnx RTFMs Feb 01 15:58:40 bazaar Feb 01 15:58:41 graphics should be compressed in ram, any codecs should be loaded at playback time Feb 01 15:58:52 mavhc: compressed in ram? you must be joking Feb 01 15:58:56 blitting would eat tons of CPU Feb 01 15:59:03 mavhc, and who is offering to do this work? Feb 01 15:59:03 * b-man iss trying to update status for merinstaller Feb 01 15:59:06 unless you have an unpacker in the graphics chip Feb 01 15:59:09 re:is Feb 01 15:59:19 and we probably don't Feb 01 15:59:32 (excluding the unknown PowerVR) Feb 01 15:59:38 AStorm: just simple compression, still have uncompressed vram Feb 01 15:59:52 mavhc: and each blit is decompression Feb 01 15:59:55 slow. Feb 01 16:00:08 it's a framebuffer, after all Feb 01 16:00:18 how often do you have to redraw it? Feb 01 16:00:23 often enough Feb 01 16:00:37 mavhc, the screen? 30 times per second during an animation Feb 01 16:00:44 the UI isn't redrawn that often, only when the screen changes Feb 01 16:00:48 unless it's some specialized compression, you'd have to unpack whole images Feb 01 16:01:08 instead of compression, you could use vector UI Feb 01 16:01:09 e.g. SVG Feb 01 16:01:15 mavhc, again: if these are such great ideas, why aren't the people who actually do the work using them? Feb 01 16:01:17 and cache renders Feb 01 16:01:39 that would work just as fast Feb 01 16:01:52 because they only care if their app runs, not if it runs when 3 other apps are running? or because they want to optimise last, after all the features are complete Feb 01 16:02:12 mavhc: that, and it is no gain either Feb 01 16:02:14 cacheing renders means it's using the same amount of ram Feb 01 16:02:21 E libs support compressed images btw Feb 01 16:02:33 so does firefox (used for large images) Feb 01 16:02:47 X server might support them Feb 01 16:02:51 so it's not a crazy idea Feb 01 16:02:53 no idea if it does Feb 01 16:03:01 it's not, but it's not useful either Feb 01 16:03:14 why do you have to keep the images in memory? - so that X server can display them Feb 01 16:03:30 if X server doesn't support compression directly, you've a problem Feb 01 16:03:36 but we're not constantly redrawing the UI, there's no overlapping windows for a start Feb 01 16:03:42 ... Feb 01 16:03:49 there *are* overlapping windows. Feb 01 16:03:54 buttons are windows. Feb 01 16:04:03 song scrollbar is a window Feb 01 16:04:09 (think X) Feb 01 16:04:23 ok, there's no overlapping drawing Feb 01 16:04:28 at least X server caches fonts Feb 01 16:04:41 yes, so you don't actually have to pull them from the X server after you upload Feb 01 16:04:55 again, X server would have to support that compression thingy Feb 01 16:05:11 b-man, http://pastebin.ca/1324547 from inside merinstaller I would be able to do bzr commit -m "my message" Feb 01 16:05:24 http://fosdem.org/2009/schedule/events/emb_maemo_beagleboard Feb 01 16:05:25 firefox works around by uploading parts of image to X server if it's large Feb 01 16:05:37 (the visible ones) Feb 01 16:05:39 johnx: ok Feb 01 16:05:59 it's just a side effect of running apps written for devices where ram use isn't a problem Feb 01 16:06:03 no Feb 01 16:06:05 it's not. Feb 01 16:06:17 it's a side effect of having an X server w/o support for compressed formats Feb 01 16:06:23 keesj, ah, very interesting. so the goal is to modify maemo as little as possible, correct? Feb 01 16:06:24 :P Feb 01 16:06:53 mavhc: be thankful that apps don't have to manage the images themselves Feb 01 16:07:02 so you end up with 2 copies Feb 01 16:07:12 johnx: I don't really know, I just and mainly wonder about the development process out there Feb 01 16:07:20 keesj: fremantle should work on that out of the box Feb 01 16:07:32 so does the xserver just redraw images without talking to the app? the app just tells it what area of ram the image is in? Feb 01 16:07:34 AStorm, define "out of the box" Feb 01 16:07:53 johnx: as in "almost the same hardware" Feb 01 16:07:58 :P Feb 01 16:08:17 mavhc: the app and X server throw around XIDs Feb 01 16:08:25 "out of the box" != "some hacking required" :P Feb 01 16:08:27 AStorm: and as "A safe change" Feb 01 16:08:52 johnx: it will "work" w/o hacking Feb 01 16:08:57 at least, most features Feb 01 16:09:02 the hardware is so similar. Feb 01 16:09:33 what if it's a vector art program redrawing? Feb 01 16:09:49 mavhc: so it's usually like: move this XID there Feb 01 16:10:02 mavhc: then it has to blit to a bitmap first Feb 01 16:10:22 or maybe use X drawing routines directly - but these are lacking in features Feb 01 16:10:26 so it's stored once in vram, and once in ram Feb 01 16:10:43 yes, so? you can use shm Feb 01 16:10:54 as in, XShm extension Feb 01 16:11:03 nah, even that won't work Feb 01 16:11:09 you'd have to be able to mmap the vram Feb 01 16:11:12 keesj, is there any more info available on that project? Feb 01 16:11:19 or mmap X server memory Feb 01 16:11:32 aaaah...just realized it was a presentation, not a project Feb 01 16:11:33 durrr Feb 01 16:11:40 anyway, no zero-copy is possible then Feb 01 16:11:45 * b-man really hopes he did not screw anything up at mer-committers in bzr :P Feb 01 16:11:59 AStorm: but after rendering you could delete and rerender upon the next request for that rectangle? Feb 01 16:12:00 b-man, in the worst case we can revert, so don't worry Feb 01 16:12:13 mavhc: yes Feb 01 16:12:14 it's next week at fosdem. Feb 01 16:12:14 hehe Feb 01 16:12:32 mavhc: obviously, at a CPU cost Feb 01 16:12:35 b-man, plus, it doesn't end up on launchpad until your run bzr push ... Feb 01 16:12:42 it's all a cpu vs ram tradeoff Feb 01 16:12:52 a lot of CPU for a tiny bit of RAM. Feb 01 16:12:56 ah, ok :) Feb 01 16:13:02 rendering, say, SVG uses a lot of CPU Feb 01 16:13:17 it's much cheaper to hold the image and modify it Feb 01 16:13:22 yes, but what about RLE compression? Feb 01 16:13:32 for the previous case of bitmap compression Feb 01 16:13:35 RLE of those bitmaps? Feb 01 16:13:42 again, if X server supports compressed formats Feb 01 16:13:44 the pre vector discussion Feb 01 16:13:46 and the gfx card does... Feb 01 16:13:57 otherwise it will have to be unpacked somewhere Feb 01 16:14:08 or you decompressed on the fly when asked for the rectangle, then deleted the decompressed version again Feb 01 16:14:13 also, modifying the image obviously will require a decompression Feb 01 16:14:22 yes, you could do that Feb 01 16:14:23 b-man: did you push too? Feb 01 16:14:30 because in a general use case on maemo the UI isn't redrawn more often than once a second in a worst case Feb 01 16:14:55 no idea if decompressing all those PNGs will be fast enough Feb 01 16:14:55 Stskeeps: i'm still having issues :P Feb 01 16:15:05 mavhc, uhm, except when anyone is doing anything Feb 01 16:15:06 b-man: like? Feb 01 16:15:08 and *especially* rendering SVGs won't be worth it Feb 01 16:15:18 johnx: eg? Feb 01 16:15:34 johnx: they're not changing the images Feb 01 16:15:43 svg is way too slow, but a simple vector format would be ok, it's what everyone did in 8bit days Feb 01 16:15:55 :) Feb 01 16:15:59 Stskeeps: http://pastebin.ca/1324532 - and i can't find a way to fix this Feb 01 16:16:02 AStorm, but he wants to delete the uncompressed version, and we don't have saveunders I think Feb 01 16:16:12 I'd rather have a media player that used 1MB of ram and didn't look pretty Feb 01 16:16:14 you don't? Feb 01 16:16:21 thus, our X server is unaccelerated Feb 01 16:16:23 mavhc, then use mpd+ncmpc Feb 01 16:16:37 mavhc: problem solved? Feb 01 16:16:45 other than that, XMMS is smaller than canola Feb 01 16:16:47 Or mpc even =) Feb 01 16:17:07 what's more, you can drop the file walker process Feb 01 16:17:13 b-man: first off, you put the merinstaller in /merinstaller, not /usr/libexec/dev/sorce/deb/merinstaller/ :) Feb 01 16:17:14 or write your own mpd frontend in assembly with direct vector graphics printed to the framebuffer Feb 01 16:17:24 googles....well, I want a gui, but don't bother with album art and themes Feb 01 16:17:34 Stskeeps: ok Feb 01 16:17:36 mavhc: again, we have a build of old xmms Feb 01 16:17:37 use it Feb 01 16:17:45 mavhc, if you link in gtk+ and hildon you're already outside your memory requirements Feb 01 16:17:54 johnx: gtk+ is shared Feb 01 16:17:59 so is hildon Feb 01 16:18:10 oh, not xmms Feb 01 16:18:13 bmp rather Feb 01 16:18:16 or audacious Feb 01 16:18:23 xmms uses gtk+1.2, which will eat ram Feb 01 16:18:27 :P Feb 01 16:18:31 yup :) Feb 01 16:18:50 johnx: saw http://fosdem.org/2009/schedule/events/emb_maemo_beagleboard ? Feb 01 16:19:04 yup. just a second ago Feb 01 16:19:07 k Feb 01 16:19:11 not that I can get a consistant report of free ram, each applet seems to give a different number Feb 01 16:19:24 try htop Feb 01 16:19:25 or ram used by an app Feb 01 16:19:43 mavhc, well, it's somewhat complicated when you're talking about using shared libraries... Feb 01 16:20:07 so I've found, can't they have their own entry? Feb 01 16:21:05 they do Feb 01 16:21:12 it's a point called SHR Feb 01 16:21:17 RES is the true memory usage Feb 01 16:21:26 VM is the allocation size Feb 01 16:21:36 johnx: just wondering if they're suddenly making a side project to maemo targetting omap3 devices.. Feb 01 16:21:37 RES or RSS (resident set size) Feb 01 16:22:36 from my desktop: Feb 01 16:22:39 Stskeeps, well, they internally use beagles for dev work, IIRC...so I would assume it's just a presentation on that Feb 01 16:22:40 10624 astralst 21 1 120M 31980 12404 S 0.0 2.1 0:01.06 claws-mail Feb 01 16:23:00 johnx: yeah possibly Feb 01 16:23:10 120M is VIRT, 32M is SHR, 12,5M is RSS Feb 01 16:23:18 oh, wrogn Feb 01 16:23:34 Stskeeps, There were noises about telling other people how to use maemo5 on a beagle, earlier Feb 01 16:23:35 120M is VIRT, 32M is RES and 12.5M is SHR Feb 01 16:23:45 :P Feb 01 16:24:04 this is x86 though Feb 01 16:24:21 johnx: well, on the other hand, nokia seems to be starting to get some of the things i've pointed out way back in Maemo Reconstructed Feb 01 16:24:48 Stskeeps, hmm? Feb 01 16:25:07 sorting by RES on tablet: hildon-desktop, osso-xterm, hildon-input-method, browserd, osso-connectivity-ui-connd Feb 01 16:25:14 (largest first) Feb 01 16:25:31 how would I do that sort? Feb 01 16:25:33 and hildon-desktop is 16M RES Feb 01 16:25:40 johnx: 'Sure, customize with busybox and such, but, Feb 01 16:25:40 in the process of rebuilding the base system platform, release scripts Feb 01 16:25:40 for bootstrapping a Maemo image, keep the system development open Feb 01 16:25:40 (public SVN like with Hildon) - which would make developers happy in Feb 01 16:25:40 terms of knowing how the base system is going to change - and adapt to Feb 01 16:25:41 them before new OS releases come out. Feb 01 16:25:44 (and such) Feb 01 16:25:57 (http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2008-October/035409.html) Feb 01 16:26:04 mavhc: press < Feb 01 16:26:08 or > Feb 01 16:26:22 in htop? Feb 01 16:26:26 yes Feb 01 16:26:33 or click Setup on the bar Feb 01 16:26:34 if they're starting to make it possible to easily adapt Maemo to hw platforms and bootstrap it Feb 01 16:26:36 first question, where's htop? Feb 01 16:26:37 :P Feb 01 16:26:38 and pick there Feb 01 16:26:46 mavhc: in extras I think Feb 01 16:26:58 don't see it Feb 01 16:26:59 you can also use old top (from busybox) Feb 01 16:27:05 maybe extras-devel Feb 01 16:27:09 or that other devel repo Feb 01 16:27:45 http://maemo.org/development/tools/ Feb 01 16:27:52 note - hildon-desktop process counts most of your desktop applets Feb 01 16:27:56 Use apt-get to install it after adding that repo Feb 01 16:28:08 if the applets aren't displayed do they use ram? Feb 01 16:28:20 yes, they are running Feb 01 16:28:39 bad design, eh? Feb 01 16:28:50 probably half of my problem then Feb 01 16:28:55 unlikely Feb 01 16:29:07 see, the heaviest one I have is the omweather Feb 01 16:29:16 because of nice gfx Feb 01 16:29:46 is it possible to see what each applet is using? Feb 01 16:29:49 and most of the applets are client rendered Feb 01 16:29:57 hmm, no, I don't think so Feb 01 16:30:03 might show as threads, let me check Feb 01 16:31:13 nah, you won't know which one's which Feb 01 16:31:43 and if the only way to remove them is to uninstall that's going to be annoying Feb 01 16:31:49 Stskeeps, right now I think they're very focused on getting fremantle out of the door. And they did talk about fremantle on beagleboards a while ago I know...so I think it's more about filling in the blanks on a one-off nature rather than becoming really portable... Feb 01 16:31:51 no, just uncheck them Feb 01 16:32:04 remove them from the desktop and/or tray Feb 01 16:32:15 johnx: yeah, true - but still, if they're even distributing how to put maemo on another device, is a plus Feb 01 16:32:18 it's configurable in the control panel and desktop menu Feb 01 16:32:34 that's what I meant by not displayed Feb 01 16:32:56 did you mean on the desktop, but covered by another window? Feb 01 16:32:57 Stskeeps, agreed. maybe they'll be more willing to talk right after fremantle is out the door, before the heavy work for hermatatatan starts Feb 01 16:33:10 yeah Feb 01 16:33:24 mavhc: they took like, all, 300 KB though Feb 01 16:33:27 so don't even bother Feb 01 16:33:35 unless one of your applets is running python :P Feb 01 16:33:43 also, the psion teklogix netbook pro looks like an interesting device :) Feb 01 16:33:43 (then python will show in process list) Feb 01 16:35:22 mavhc: I guess hildon-desktop is so large, because it caches all the menu bitmaps Feb 01 16:35:30 that would be a nasty performance problem Feb 01 16:35:38 no other reason why it should take 16 MB Feb 01 16:36:40 menu bitmaps = the corners etc, or all the text too? Feb 01 16:36:44 maybe... maybe if it holds the uncompressed wallpaper Feb 01 16:36:51 mavhc: no, as in, app icons Feb 01 16:37:30 mine hildon-desktop just crashed and was returned to the defaults Feb 01 16:37:38 it eats 14,8 MB Feb 01 16:37:57 what bit depth is the wallpaper? Feb 01 16:37:58 AStorm, huh. kernel build failed. sorry, not going to worry about it for tonight Feb 01 16:38:46 mavhc: unimportant, it doesn't take much ram as I checked Feb 01 16:39:33 at least with no swap it can't swap out apps I'm using, unlike windows Feb 01 16:39:49 it's just... heavy on its own Feb 01 16:39:55 mavhc: then enable swap, eh/ Feb 01 16:39:59 you can have a swap file Feb 01 16:40:10 there's even an utility in control panel Feb 01 16:40:13 and wear out my precious SD card? Feb 01 16:40:16 yes Feb 01 16:40:34 mavhc: yes, SD cards are cheap Feb 01 16:40:40 maybe you'll kill your $10 SD card in 3 years instead of losing it in 4 years Feb 01 16:40:46 mhm Feb 01 16:41:05 though, failures of swap files are sometimes nefarious crashes Feb 01 16:41:11 dataloss might be expensive ;P Feb 01 16:41:34 MTBF is much larger though than 5 years Feb 01 16:41:45 because swap is actually written to rarely Feb 01 16:41:55 depends on 'swappiness' Feb 01 16:42:04 johnx: as I mentioned, you don't need the kernel build Feb 01 16:42:07 to build the module :) Feb 01 16:42:11 try it Feb 01 16:42:25 sorry, I moved on to something else Feb 01 16:42:31 meh :/ Feb 01 16:42:38 I'll get back to it eventually Feb 01 16:42:50 if you want it done faster then just install scratchbox... Feb 01 16:45:33 johnx: and you'll send me a DVD with Ubuntu on it Feb 01 16:45:56 why would I send you an ubuntu cd so you can work on your own project? Feb 01 16:45:59 setting up sbox is time consuming and requires full attention Feb 01 16:46:04 will you send me an n810 so I can test it with mer? Feb 01 16:46:30 also: the ubuntu guys will send you a free cd. just ask them Feb 01 16:52:32 AStorm, I've got compcache 0.5 & 0.5.1 compiled successfully against nokia 2.6.21. 0.5.1 was the result of dodgy patching by me (diffed from 0.5). http://qwerty12.maemobox.org/compcache/ Feb 01 16:53:01 i wish comanche would be open-sourced Feb 01 16:53:16 heh :) somehow I figured it would this is what would happen Feb 01 17:03:00 qwerty12: :D again Feb 01 17:03:02 you rock man Feb 01 17:03:08 time for testing Feb 01 17:03:12 :) Feb 01 17:04:22 btw, does the new wifi driver support packet injection? Feb 01 17:05:12 aircrack-ng would be too good to pass :> Feb 01 17:05:37 It uses mac80211 which I believe allows packet injection Feb 01 17:07:47 qwerty12: where else except initfs can I put kernel modules? (dir) Feb 01 17:08:09 /lib/modules/`uname -r` on rootfs but you will have to insmod manually still Feb 01 17:09:43 doesn't exist, meh Feb 01 17:09:53 yup :) Feb 01 17:10:00 that's why I asked Feb 01 17:10:03 it doesn't really matter where you put it on the rootfs Feb 01 17:10:04 ok then Feb 01 17:10:19 johnx: it would if I installed real module-init-tools Feb 01 17:10:47 hmm...is there a maemo package of that? Feb 01 17:11:05 busybox would probably conflict with it anyway Feb 01 17:11:56 yes, there is, and yes, busybox conflicts with it Feb 01 17:12:02 but who cares about conflicts :P Feb 01 17:12:23 oh me! *raises his hand* Feb 01 17:13:06 nokia would do us a lot of good if it just installed normal utils Feb 01 17:13:16 hence mer Feb 01 17:13:24 mhm Feb 01 17:14:25 AStorm: that would be a step away from the normal procedure Feb 01 17:14:52 RST38h: it's not really embedded enough Feb 01 17:14:57 no need for busybox Feb 01 17:17:03 and would make for less porting Feb 01 17:19:11 Interesting detail: the busybox in initfs is bigger than the one in the rootfs. Feb 01 17:19:22 And it has color ls, for example. Feb 01 17:19:29 It also has better help Feb 01 17:19:40 * benson compares feature lists... Feb 01 17:19:43 different team? Feb 01 17:41:52 Meizirkki: fell and broke your leg? ;) Feb 01 17:42:23 luckily not :) Feb 01 17:42:31 any luck on installer? Feb 01 17:42:45 yep, and 0.7 works well Feb 01 17:42:49 good Feb 01 17:43:56 i removed network-manager btw Feb 01 17:44:09 i prefer wifi-radar Feb 01 17:44:25 fair enough :) Feb 01 17:44:31 i'm going to release very soon so :P Feb 01 17:44:43 w00! Feb 01 17:44:54 * johnx is already digging in to zaurus pre-reqs Feb 01 17:45:57 * Stskeeps is not a fan of scratchbox atm Feb 01 17:46:18 you two fighting again? Feb 01 17:46:46 libkrb requiring libc6 >= 2.9 Feb 01 17:46:50 guess which we're on, 2.8 Feb 01 17:47:01 aaah, in sb Feb 01 17:47:07 hmm Feb 01 17:47:30 well, for the rootstrap i generate for SB Feb 01 17:47:37 have to revert to v8 i guess Feb 01 17:57:51 alright, 'night all Feb 01 17:58:13 nini Feb 01 17:58:15 * Stskeeps sends off post Feb 01 17:58:34 * qwerty12 hits the auto refresh button Feb 01 18:02:07 re: busyboxes, there are 86 commands in common, 27 unique to the initfs version, and 20 unique to the rootfs version. Feb 01 18:02:53 Why these featuresets aren't merged and a single binary used is beyond me... Feb 01 18:08:13 Stskeeps, screenshot02.png isn't displaying :) Feb 01 18:08:50 hmmm. Feb 01 18:09:10 lemme see Feb 01 18:10:20 fixed Feb 01 18:10:56 Mer 0.7 release: http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26567 Feb 01 18:11:06 slightly more user friendly to install, now :) Feb 01 18:13:22 evening andre___ Feb 01 18:15:39 hej hej Feb 01 19:04:51 (random information) - i just released a new version of nit-bootmenu-compat for ubuntu jaunty and i created a new error screen; http://www.bman.maemobox.org/projects/ubuntu-n8x0/incompatible-bootmenu.jpg - take a look :) Feb 01 19:06:10 hey, can I install clear maemo on a sd card? Feb 01 19:07:07 you mean clone? - there shuld be instructions under general on itt ;) Feb 01 19:07:37 i've seen that - but i want a clear system - not a clone Feb 01 19:07:59 hmm Feb 01 19:08:08 clear? Feb 01 19:08:19 ooops, i played with debian and now maemo boots only to the end of a blue bar and freezes... Feb 01 19:08:30 oli, have any experience with mtd2block modules? Feb 01 19:08:56 qwerty12_N800: no. Feb 01 19:10:05 what do i have to do to fix it? ;p Feb 01 19:11:42 * b-man thinks about creating a stand-alone repository for ubuntu to keep things sain Feb 01 19:12:08 Do I have to reflash now? Feb 01 19:12:36 most likely :( Feb 01 19:13:21 well.. ok. But i have no idea how did it happen. Feb 01 19:13:53 how were you messing with debian? :) Feb 01 19:14:19 i set root device to mmc, tested it, it crashed on rebooting so i pulled battery out Feb 01 19:14:33 ouch Feb 01 19:14:49 after thet i've set root dev to flash and now blue bar stops at the end Feb 01 19:15:14 was there any better thing to do on crash at a black screen? ;p Feb 01 19:15:36 the jffs2 filesysm might have gotten damaged Feb 01 19:16:06 but i could't do anything Feb 01 19:16:08 re: filesystem Feb 01 19:16:12 whoa, I don't think that Pandora is pocketable, it's toooo thick imho Feb 01 19:16:44 b-man: i have to do a full flash or only partial? Feb 01 19:16:56 It's also shit to most people because you can't buy with a CC :P Feb 01 19:17:14 oil; probibly a full flash ;p Feb 01 19:17:37 wazd:pffftt... it's only 27mm thick. Feb 01 19:18:00 b-man: ok, thanks Feb 01 19:18:03 Pocketable, if it's the only thing in that pocket. Feb 01 19:18:32 benson: oh my ))) Feb 01 19:18:41 benson: "only"?)) Feb 01 19:19:07 benson: thick part of n800 is 23 Feb 01 19:19:48 Yep, 29 is no problem. Feb 01 19:19:59 qwerty: and it also has a problem of not being in existance yet Feb 01 19:20:11 (It doesn't need a case, since it's a clamshell, so you save a couple mm there.) Feb 01 19:20:21 yes, I admit that for some REALLY dedicated people it is not a problem at all though Feb 01 19:21:04 benson: well, I don't have any case for my n800 :) But I've just visually added 5mm to n800... oh my oh my) Feb 01 19:21:08 RST38h, yes, I could see that as a bigger problem :/. nice con they've got setup though Feb 01 19:21:40 pfff, I can pocket my vaio P Feb 01 19:22:00 Proteous: you actually have one?) Feb 01 19:22:06 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/01/vaio-p-pockets-1.jpg Feb 01 19:22:07 qwerty12_N800: huh can't buy pandora with a cc? Feb 01 19:22:07 qwerty: Never underestimate the power of ignorance :) Feb 01 19:22:17 (in other words, it does not have to be a con job :)) Feb 01 19:22:55 glass, yep, don't have a link but they aren't accepting them atm :/ Feb 01 19:22:57 qwerty12_N800: are they evading taxes or what? Feb 01 19:23:03 RST38h, indeed :) Feb 01 19:23:50 glass: they are evading chargebacks Feb 01 19:24:03 RST38h: thats the other thing i thought of Feb 01 19:24:33 RST38h: but that smells like keeping the money despite the project crashing Feb 01 19:24:34 Proteous: Full article, with more pictures -- the last one is best: Feb 01 19:24:37 http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/12/vaio-p-doesnt-have-nothin-on-these-other-awesome-pocket-friend/ Feb 01 19:24:43 yeah Feb 01 19:24:58 or this one from the comments: http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/dqnplus/imgs/0/7/07548f84.jpg Feb 01 19:25:02 Pandora is a wonderful piece of hardware with "why-so-bad?!" design Feb 01 19:25:24 dunno, i kinda like the design, i'd like all those buttons Feb 01 19:25:30 i just don't like the vapo smell.. Feb 01 19:25:35 LETS PUT WHITE BUTTONS ALL OVER THE FUXIN PLACE!!!! Feb 01 19:25:36 or the amateur smell Feb 01 19:25:45 wazd: it is an omap3 reference design with an ugly case quickly modeled out of cardboard Feb 01 19:26:01 I think buttons will be black someday) Feb 01 19:26:02 The design doesn't bother me. I don't think the buttons are white in the final version. Feb 01 19:26:20 it would be in toy use for me anyways Feb 01 19:26:21 the final version will be pink and have horns instead of buttons Feb 01 19:26:27 hello kitty Feb 01 19:26:36 I Feb 01 19:26:44 http://www.gp32x.de/pandorasneak.jpg Feb 01 19:26:50 glass: the whole thing looks very much like Optimus Maximus Feb 01 19:26:54 thats the final mockup I guess Feb 01 19:26:58 what bothers me about is the fanboyz, thinking of it as the jesusdevice Feb 01 19:27:04 I generally don't care much about design, but I'd draw the line at hello kitty. Feb 01 19:27:11 people who leave computers in their back pockets will end up running cracked software no matter whether they are pirates or not Feb 01 19:27:13 glass: a bunch of guys suddenly get an idea that they can design and produce hardware Feb 01 19:27:15 I just don't really get the vertical then horizontal across the top keyboard buttons Feb 01 19:27:16 its just a recipe for disaster Feb 01 19:27:25 they keypad is cool Feb 01 19:27:31 then they just went too far Feb 01 19:27:34 RST38h: "hey we can haz order ref boards" Feb 01 19:27:42 glass: they try - and fail, documenting their clusterfuck in their blog for everyone to see Feb 01 19:28:00 RST38h: i'd have more faith in them if they'd just have bought the manufacturing from some chinese nutjobs Feb 01 19:28:15 glass: I am absolutely sure they did Feb 01 19:28:27 glass: but they have chosen their chinese nutjobs badly. Feb 01 19:28:50 RST38h: well the crap that one fanboy told me was that the "parts were chosen for quality" and that some of the plastics were from usa etc Feb 01 19:29:00 RST38h: i haven't followed their blog really Feb 01 19:29:04 Well, actually it's acceptable design but... speaker grid?! Guys, hello, it's 21st century!) Feb 01 19:29:51 glass: Chinese have no problem ordering some parts from the US Feb 01 19:29:53 forgive me for being a n00b, but what would you cover a speaker with? Feb 01 19:30:13 melted lard? Feb 01 19:30:19 well, not that "early 90s" stuff for sure) Feb 01 19:30:20 RST38h: it was told in a fashion that they were going to assemble it themselfs Feb 01 19:30:20 timeless: Hi, do you remember yesterday's talk about chinook package manager? Feb 01 19:30:23 might help with cooking Feb 01 19:30:43 vaguely Feb 01 19:30:45 glass: further confirms my original suspicion that they have never done it Feb 01 19:31:13 It's been interesting to follow the Pandora project thingy. I guess it proves that if it would be so easy, everybody would be doing it. Feb 01 19:31:14 Today I reflashed the device with latest release of diablo. Feb 01 19:31:23 +1 roope Feb 01 19:31:27 RST38h: yeah thats why it sounded amateurish and stupid, the fanboy who told me this didn't think of it as weird which is why i labeled him fanoy in my puny mind Feb 01 19:31:41 roope: It is not very hard but you have to have experience doing it Feb 01 19:32:13 roppe: It basicalyl comes down to choosing the right Chinese or Taiwanese design house and working with them, clearly stating what you want Feb 01 19:32:16 b-man: epic win! Feb 01 19:32:24 Well, yes. It's like brain surgery. It's not very hard if you have experience doing it. :) Feb 01 19:32:37 oil: hehe Feb 01 19:32:39 * lcuk hands roope a hammer and chisel Feb 01 19:32:54 you should be able to make a good start with those :D Feb 01 19:32:54 roope: But you have to know whom to choose and have exprience working with these guys Feb 01 19:32:59 but yes, there are many asian subcontractors where you can get pretty much the whole package. Feb 01 19:33:05 b-man: i've left it (with battery) for 10 minutes, then ./flasher-3.0-static --set-root-device flash -R , and it seems to work well ;) Feb 01 19:33:19 sweet ;) Feb 01 19:33:44 roope: point being that they didn't even choose teh complete package way which would have been easiest Feb 01 19:33:50 At first time, package manager lauched and showed me list of installed apps. Then it checked for updated and just after this check it repeated same nonsense in log as chinook did before. No apps installed, no available repos really working. I can't figure out what it wants from me in order to just work... Feb 01 19:33:54 the only problem with n800 which i hadn't solved yet is setting a SIP account Feb 01 19:33:55 -teh+the Feb 01 19:34:01 http://www.gp32x.de/sneak3.jpg Feb 01 19:34:12 omg, 3.5mm jack on the side! Feb 01 19:34:23 why?! Feb 01 19:34:24 That's... at least you cannot complain about the lack of hard keys there. ;) Feb 01 19:34:44 i thought it could be flipped slate style? Feb 01 19:34:45 wazd: wtf is that? a dvd player with a keyboard? Feb 01 19:34:54 the preview there looks like its laptop only Feb 01 19:34:55 Interesting placement for the Del button. Feb 01 19:34:58 wazd: as opposed to? Feb 01 19:35:09 * b-man is mesmerised by the pandora picture Feb 01 19:35:16 2.5mm is less widely available... Feb 01 19:35:33 and odd lack of esc key without a double press Feb 01 19:35:41 benson: no, why on the front? Feb 01 19:35:49 wazd: this does not look like "high quality plastics from US" =) Feb 01 19:36:12 lcuk, wazd: did you see my new error screen btw? :) Feb 01 19:36:15 looks like a plastic fishing bait box, in fact Feb 01 19:36:19 RST38h, high quality fake rendered plastics, the electrons originated in the US Feb 01 19:36:35 hey, has anyone here had trouble using mer's menus in vmware? Feb 01 19:36:39 benson: Place on the side is much better for "audio player in the pocket" mode Feb 01 19:36:41 (the task launcher one) Feb 01 19:36:41 wazd: it has to be front or back; sides would interfere with gaming grip. Feb 01 19:37:08 wazd: true that. Feb 01 19:37:14 WOOOT Feb 01 19:37:24 i just booted windows 3.11 on my n800. Feb 01 19:37:26 Maybe at the back edge of the side... Feb 01 19:37:29 no b-man give us a blast Feb 01 19:37:33 benson: now you'll break your 100$ headphones jack with this :( Feb 01 19:37:58 lcuk, wazd; http://www.bman.maemobox.org/projects/ubuntu-n8x0/incompatible-bootmenu.jpg Feb 01 19:38:19 b-man: fonts are screwed up\ Feb 01 19:38:22 "this tablet will self destruct in 15 seconds" Feb 01 19:38:33 Heheh. I don't have any phones worth more than $20, and even so I'd spend $5 on a 3" pigtail to take the abuse. Feb 01 19:38:37 hehe Feb 01 19:38:38 wrong aspect, but the contrast of the entire screen is right Feb 01 19:38:42 b-man: use special narrow fonts or just use normal) Feb 01 19:38:45 i like wazds shark better Feb 01 19:38:57 i bet that looks good on device Feb 01 19:39:05 Stskeeps: that's for ubuntu I guess Feb 01 19:39:10 get headphones with a corner jack Feb 01 19:39:30 mavhc: that sounds like Apple) Feb 01 19:39:32 i have to change cord on my headphones every few months Feb 01 19:39:43 b-man, could you do me a blank 800*480 of the background please? :D i would like it for my desktop (maybe with a blue hint) Feb 01 19:39:51 Still harder on them... I'm with wazd now that I think about pocketage. Feb 01 19:39:53 a little solder job.. using them on ipod and rolling the cord on it breaks it Feb 01 19:39:55 lcuk; shure Feb 01 19:40:00 :D excellent Feb 01 19:40:03 hold on... Feb 01 19:40:12 though the color i could hint as required Feb 01 19:40:30 im already changing title hues for different apps Feb 01 19:40:53 ok, i'll have it up in 5-10 minutes then ;) Feb 01 19:40:55 wazd: no, that would be: buy our headphones that need a special chip in to even play audio via our device, btw the chip costs nothing but licencing fees Feb 01 19:41:08 b-man, no problem, leave it greyscale, ill tint it at runtime Feb 01 19:41:19 could even make it an alpha channel Feb 01 19:41:21 ok :) Feb 01 19:44:29 lcuk: http://www.bman.maemobox.org/intelmac_gray.jpg Feb 01 19:44:54 thanks :) Feb 01 19:45:23 no problem ;) Feb 01 19:47:40 and the worst thing that curent pandora's keyboard layout is almost localizable Feb 01 19:47:58 no space for descent cyrilic or other layouts :( Feb 01 19:48:27 * timeless wonders if osso-backup is available Feb 01 19:48:28 yeah. nobody in scandinavia wants to buy a device without äö. Feb 01 19:48:55 nobody outside scandinavia would want to buy a device made by a company which includes them Feb 01 19:49:02 roope: you've got separate keys for such characters? Feb 01 19:49:08 * timeless grumbles notably in roope's direction Feb 01 19:49:14 oli: yes Feb 01 19:49:26 they ruin the right edge of the keyboard for them Feb 01 19:49:33 total waste of good ergonomics Feb 01 19:49:39 roope: speaking of which Feb 01 19:49:46 i just tried an HTC earlier today Feb 01 19:49:53 they stuck the space key where it belongs Feb 01 19:50:03 remind me to get an HTC and whack it over the head of someone @nokia Feb 01 19:51:17 the HTC models I tried at verkkokauppa.com ~2y ago did not have very impressive qwerty Feb 01 19:51:37 suihkulokki: visit me tomorrow and i'll explain Feb 01 19:51:50 Guys, I have some problems compiling my application for maemo. Is this the right place to ask dev questions? Feb 01 19:52:05 jmesquita: there's here, or a mailing list Feb 01 19:52:08 give it a shot Feb 01 19:52:16 use a pastebin if you need a bunch of lines Feb 01 19:52:33 timeless: I have a Qt application and I have a linking problem Feb 01 19:52:34 If only pandora guys invested some time in sexiness - it would be total hell on earth Feb 01 19:52:53 timeless: It all compiles fine, but linking has not been good Feb 01 19:53:03 timeless: Let me pastebin the output Feb 01 19:53:09 jmesquita whats the problem? Feb 01 19:53:35 If you can't do something sexy - copy something sexy :) Feb 01 19:53:50 woglinde: I am not really sure. I am linking against a lib that dependes on portaudio Feb 01 19:54:02 woglinde: But it compiles fine and the lib examples also work fine Feb 01 19:54:11 the pastebin Feb 01 19:54:13 then Feb 01 19:54:14 wazd, they intentionally made it look like shit. Feb 01 19:54:26 note that some things aren't quite as transitive as you might want Feb 01 19:54:27 woglinde: I mean, the PC version compiles on all 3 OSs and work fine on all 3 OSs Feb 01 19:54:50 why are all the games in mer 77+mb? Feb 01 19:54:55 is it going to install KDE for me? Feb 01 19:55:40 GAN800: well, honestly it doesn't have worst look in the world, but it's kinda "oldskool" or something Feb 01 19:56:25 http://pastebin.com/m3a889e8f Feb 01 19:57:07 jmesquita: did ou try linking against that sound lib? Feb 01 19:57:41 timeless: -lportaudio-i686-pc-linux-gnu Feb 01 19:57:50 timeless: Thats supposed to be the sound lib Feb 01 19:57:59 jmesquita you need to linka gainst the alsablib Feb 01 19:58:33 jmesquita: you should probably look at pkgconfig Feb 01 19:58:42 in theory, it's supposed to solve this problem for you Feb 01 19:59:03 woglinde: Erm... I dont really understand why this is not compiling in sbox if it does compile on any other system Feb 01 19:59:14 hey guys, anyone ever use dosbox to install Win95 on the N800? Feb 01 19:59:17 timeless: Let me take a look at that Feb 01 19:59:27 woglinde: -l what? Feb 01 20:00:19 * RST38h suggested Livingroom to install Windows about 13 hours ago Feb 01 20:00:33 -lasound Feb 01 20:00:35 hey RST, i did Feb 01 20:00:48 that whole thing i went through was just so i could install win 3.11 on dosbox. it works! yay. Feb 01 20:00:51 jmesquita please look if libasound2 is installed Feb 01 20:01:15 woglinde: should be pretty hard to hvave compiled successfully otherwise Feb 01 20:01:16 * jmesquita is looking at the system right now Feb 01 20:01:22 presumably he has libasound2-dev too Feb 01 20:01:31 timeless depends Feb 01 20:02:12 I do have both Feb 01 20:02:21 -dev and lib... Feb 01 20:02:41 Livingroom: just use vnc/rdp and pretend you did Feb 01 20:03:00 but pretending is for fairies. Feb 01 20:03:06 -lasound2 should do Feb 01 20:03:16 i want to do it, and say i did it: and behold, i shall be the greatest in the land; the geekiest individual in central TN. Feb 01 20:03:16 args asound Feb 01 20:03:46 wonYep!!! Feb 01 20:03:50 woglinde: It did Feb 01 20:03:55 *g* Feb 01 20:04:11 woglinde: I dont really get why in regular linux distros I dont have to link explicitly against that Feb 01 20:06:32 woglinde: Is there a way to test this on the device without making a real package? Feb 01 20:06:48 copy the binary over Feb 01 20:06:58 jmesquita: you're not going to want to, but nothing prevents you Feb 01 20:07:07 but I suggest you compile it first with scratchbox arm Feb 01 20:07:08 besides you just built x86, not arm Feb 01 20:07:26 personally, i'd try it out in a vmware-x86 :) Feb 01 20:07:29 timeless: Right, I need to change the target to ARMEL Feb 01 20:07:57 sorry guys, I am very new to maemo and sbox Feb 01 20:08:26 And I just wanted a proof of concept here. Have my softphone run on one of these babies Feb 01 20:09:34 Let me get back to the books then and understand how to change sbox to armel and others ... Feb 01 20:09:51 jmesquita, have you got qt libs on your device yet Feb 01 20:10:04 lcuk he will install them Feb 01 20:11:10 lcuk: No, not yet Feb 01 20:11:25 But I saw that all I have to do is install the repo on the website Feb 01 20:11:53 devel-extras Feb 01 20:11:59 fair enough :) Feb 01 20:12:12 Yep.. :) Feb 01 20:12:44 woglinde: All I have to do is sb_menu and select the new target? Feb 01 20:12:45 can mer run qt stuff? Feb 01 20:12:55 jmesquita for scratchbox yes Feb 01 20:13:00 woglinde: And of course recompile it Feb 01 20:13:21 jmesquita then you have to activate devel-extras in /etc/apt/sources Feb 01 20:13:27 and install the qtlibs Feb 01 20:14:12 woglinde: Right, the same process I did for x86 Feb 01 20:16:23 woglinde: I get an error when running sb-menu Feb 01 20:16:36 woglinde: Should I run it from outside sbox? Feb 01 20:16:40 which one? Feb 01 20:17:00 woglinde: That I must close other sessions Feb 01 20:17:10 woglinde: But I have no other sessions logged ... Feb 01 20:17:24 hit the killall-prozesses entry Feb 01 20:17:29 is the last one Feb 01 20:17:40 woglinde: Let me try Feb 01 20:18:14 woglinde: Yep, that did the trick Feb 01 20:18:17 woglinde: Thanks Feb 01 20:19:00 jmesquita: you'll really want pkgconfig :) Feb 01 20:19:44 http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09%2F02%2F01%2F1931216&from=rss <=== Evil, EVIL! Feb 01 20:19:50 timeless: I took a look at it Feb 01 20:19:59 timeless: And yes, I will need that eventualy Feb 01 20:20:02 eventually Feb 01 20:20:07 timeless: Thanks for the tip Feb 01 20:20:20 personally i avoid it, but you want to use it as soon as possible Feb 01 20:20:25 it's really supposed to make life easier Feb 01 20:20:43 * timeless preaches w/o practicing Feb 01 20:21:37 timeless: Ahahaha, well, someone have to have the spare time, right? Feb 01 20:22:02 yeah, if i practiced everything i preached, i'd never get anything i wanted to done :( Feb 01 20:22:48 timeless: You'll end up like me. Managing a dev team Feb 01 20:23:08 jmesquita hehe Feb 01 20:23:10 i'm happy to consult for a couple of dev teams Feb 01 20:23:13 but this gives more money Feb 01 20:23:19 i don't like the responsibility of being a manager: ) Feb 01 20:25:44 woglinde: Well, lets say that managing a team is the closest I can get to developing Feb 01 20:25:49 woglinde: That makes me happy Feb 01 20:25:59 woglinde: I am not bright enough to be the developer Feb 01 20:27:16 * timeless cries Feb 01 20:27:20 capture-root doesn't work w/ mer Feb 01 20:28:07 Stskeeps: are you still here? - i'm trying to create a repository on bman.maemobox.org and i was wondering whare i could find a good guide on how to do it. Feb 01 20:29:23 * b-man trys googling Feb 01 20:44:06 * b-man starts installing repository management software in ubuntu Feb 01 20:46:18 * timeless tries to use application manager to install debhelper and gettext Feb 01 20:46:24 * timeless considers giving up Feb 01 20:47:33 hehe Feb 01 20:47:54 it says 'updating' Feb 01 20:47:55 * qwerty12_N800 has dpkg-dev, quilt & debhelper installed in mer via apt-get Feb 01 20:48:11 qwerty: yeah, i'm going to kill app manager and use apt-get Feb 01 20:48:33 Make sure to kill apt-worker too :) Feb 01 20:49:12 why? Feb 01 20:49:18 * timeless just killed the lock Feb 01 20:50:05 apt-worker is h-a-m's annoying backend... Feb 01 20:50:16 does mer include diablo's man killer? Feb 01 20:50:24 Hehe, poor watcom cpp died on my mighty macros Feb 01 20:50:40 rst *g* Feb 01 20:50:42 timeless, used to Feb 01 20:51:55 * RST38h feels evil now Feb 01 20:56:05 Shit, I do not have any other compiler Feb 01 20:59:16 err Feb 01 20:59:29 svn-buildpackage depends on xulrunner-1.9 Feb 01 20:59:35 * timeless wonders why Feb 01 21:19:42 qwerty12_N800: uhoh Feb 01 21:19:52 I got pwnd by busybox swapon Feb 01 21:20:03 how can I set swap priority w/o swapon supporting it? :P Feb 01 21:20:30 replace swapon with a real one? :) Feb 01 21:20:40 yeah fun Feb 01 21:20:44 that means installing util-linux Feb 01 21:20:54 not yet Feb 01 21:20:59 I'd rather test Mer then Feb 01 21:21:08 do you have a separate swapon app? Feb 01 21:21:19 nah, replace the binary directly. swapon is just a symlink to busybox. Feb 01 21:21:25 yer, give me 5 Feb 01 21:22:05 btw, lower prio comes first, or higher? Feb 01 21:22:37 seems that lower takes precedence... Feb 01 21:22:45 that means, latest swap added Feb 01 21:25:11 wrong Feb 01 21:25:17 higher prio takes precedence Feb 01 21:25:22 checked :P Feb 01 21:25:59 Wish process priority was like that :) Feb 01 21:26:49 your kernel module is suck Feb 01 21:27:00 weirdness happened Feb 01 21:27:31 probably memory corruption Feb 01 21:27:41 I just compiled them straight ;). that said, 0.5.1 offers no advantages over 0.5 on 2.6.21 Feb 01 21:27:50 btw, why don't lzo1x_* don't want to load, while xvmalloc and compcache did? Feb 01 21:28:05 the lzo modules complain about some missing symbol I guess Feb 01 21:28:14 I'll better reboot and check dmesg Feb 01 21:29:16 do you have the lzo modules loaded? Feb 01 21:29:43 I never tested the modules... lemme try them now Feb 01 21:31:07 qwerty12_N800: while you're on the run, could you localegen me pl_PL.UTF-8 locale? Feb 01 21:31:58 I have localepurge on the tablet, dunno if it's still possible Feb 01 21:32:22 it's not related at all Feb 01 21:33:12 "lzo1x_compress: exports duplicate symbol lzo1x_1_compress (owned by kernel)" Feb 01 21:33:50 mhm Feb 01 21:33:57 yeah, probably jffs2 uses that Feb 01 21:34:00 ;P Feb 01 21:34:18 so, please do build against proper .config kernel Feb 01 21:34:29 it may crash otherwise Feb 01 21:34:54 it was built against nokia_2420_defconfig :/, any other suggestions? Feb 01 21:35:41 that defconfig is bollocks Feb 01 21:35:47 set JFFS2 to built-in Feb 01 21:35:53 and all the compressors Feb 01 21:35:55 might help Feb 01 21:36:21 I mean, actually, the defconfig isn't the config used by Nokia stock kernel build Feb 01 21:37:05 qwerty12_N800: so, when will I get my rebuild? :) Feb 01 21:38:02 tomorrow :) Feb 01 21:38:05 heh, im still somewhat surprised when it comes to how much of a impact changing SD cards had on idle battery use Feb 01 21:39:09 AStorm, but I would have thought that nokia_2420_defconfig would already have jffs2 built in? Feb 01 21:39:11 http://pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/pic/00ptwqwq.jpg Feb 01 21:40:05 t_s_o, probably from the meta layer crawler Feb 01 21:40:31 qwerty12_N800: it doesn't apparently Feb 01 21:42:32 qwerty12_N800: ooh, my bad Feb 01 21:42:41 I just allocated 1/2 of device memory last time Feb 01 21:42:52 obviously, it could've crashed all stuff ;P Feb 01 21:43:21 tank-man: that one is not running. or at least should not be, as i have it as not starting at boot Feb 01 21:43:44 re jmesquita Feb 01 21:44:05 yea last time i updated, the crawler was running again Feb 01 21:44:31 heh, aware of that happening, but i make it a habit of changing that after a update Feb 01 21:44:51 qwerty12_N800: it seems to work with size = default (31692) Feb 01 21:45:01 size = 65535 crashed ;P Feb 01 21:45:19 probably OOM-killed a lot of stuff Feb 01 21:45:36 interesting :) Feb 01 21:45:56 btw, canola loaded a tiny bit faster Feb 01 21:46:01 like, 1s Feb 01 21:47:15 ooh, froze it seems ;P Feb 01 21:47:28 I mean, the device Feb 01 21:47:45 I'll wait to see if watchdog kills is Feb 01 21:47:47 *it Feb 01 21:48:53 qwerty12_N800: can't run simple localegen for me and give me the files in /usr/share/locales? Feb 01 21:50:03 weird... Feb 01 21:50:08 watchdog doesn't kill the device Feb 01 21:50:24 it works, but... not the UI or others Feb 01 21:50:30 weird hang it is Feb 01 21:50:37 screen and LED work Feb 01 21:50:40 not on device, cpu goes way too high for me to be able to my tablet Feb 01 21:50:52 s/able /able to use/ Feb 01 21:50:52 qwerty12_N800 meant: not on device, cpu goes way too high for me to be able to use to my tablet Feb 01 21:51:04 hm? Feb 01 21:51:08 nah, why Feb 01 21:51:23 unless, it's the stupid CPU scheduler striking again Feb 01 21:51:25 ;P Feb 01 21:51:47 maybe the "hang" is due to CPU being pegged Feb 01 21:51:58 but screen dims smoothly... hmmh Feb 01 21:52:31 shutdown worked apparently at least, LED showed it Feb 01 21:53:44 no, system hanged, but it was a soft lockup Feb 01 22:00:41 qwerty12_N800: compcache works... Feb 01 22:02:42 and actually speeds things up a bit. goodie Feb 01 22:02:50 use it smaller than 1/4 Feb 01 22:02:59 I'm trying 16 MB now Feb 01 22:04:57 tried it vs fennec w/ 3 pages open (huge ones) Feb 01 22:05:14 and switch time between apps is now much shorter Feb 01 22:07:13 are you using sd based swap too? Feb 01 22:07:28 oooh, crashed Feb 01 22:07:34 again. :/ Feb 01 22:07:42 mavhc: I tried, yes Feb 01 22:07:53 this time, it got killed by watchdog Feb 01 22:08:12 probably dies due to OOM for some reason Feb 01 22:08:27 I guess compcache is too stupid to allocate enough slack for unpacking Feb 01 22:08:31 or some such Feb 01 22:09:12 wait, got another "reboot", wtf? Feb 01 22:12:58 and then a hang (hard) on boot Feb 01 22:13:04 maybe the swap file got corrupted Feb 01 22:13:21 or some else weirdness Feb 01 22:31:37 (random information) - i have successfuly created a repository for ubuntu :) http://www.bman.maemobox.org/repository Feb 01 22:34:07 seems like OOM killer gets on a rampage if no swap is available Feb 01 22:34:12 gah Feb 01 22:35:08 because Nokia's stupid OOM protector has those 128 MB hardcoded. Feb 01 22:35:21 or tried to kill a kernel thread Feb 01 22:35:29 excellent messup Feb 01 22:43:52 Wohoooo!!!!!!!, my new ubuntu repository works!! Feb 01 22:44:27 b-man: what's on it? Feb 01 22:45:59 oooh Feb 01 22:46:09 when it crashes, the next boot fails too Feb 01 22:46:20 this means some device init is broken in the kernel too! Feb 01 22:46:29 excellent Feb 01 22:46:41 more reasons to ditch nokia kernel ASAP Feb 01 22:46:45 It's Mer time then. Feb 01 22:46:59 Does anyone know where default package manager in diablo stores repository records? Feb 01 22:47:02 are there any n810 gamers out there? Feb 01 22:48:48 (people who play games on the n810) Feb 01 22:48:53 ? Feb 01 22:49:36 Phantom, apt's list is at /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list, application manager's list is in /etc/hildon-application-manager/catalogues Feb 01 22:49:51 sisto1: atm, only ubuntu-rescue-menu, nit-bootmenu-compat, and ubuntu-omap-fb-splash. Feb 01 22:50:11 wnd: It's empty, but it still takes sources from somewhere.. Feb 01 22:53:04 without worrying about how long itwould take, is it feasible to simply download the kernal to my machine and build it directly without messing with chroots and stuff? Feb 01 22:53:29 i already have gcc and build essential, but have never managed to get the ./configure stage working Feb 01 22:53:44 ./configure? with a kernel?? Feb 01 22:53:48 -? Feb 01 22:54:00 i dunno :$ Feb 01 22:54:05 do i need to Feb 01 22:54:07 dont i Feb 01 22:54:17 * lcuk is out of his depth with kernels Feb 01 22:54:42 wnd: Update. No, I mistakenly looked wrong place. Yes, it seems that sources are here. Feb 01 22:55:03 kernel doesn't use autotools, you don't need to use sbox to build a kernel, I've done it before with standard toolchain outside sbox Feb 01 22:55:42 nice, thanks qwerty, i might get brave if i get past my current sticking point Feb 01 23:00:33 But there's a problem. While executing "apt-get update" the package manager tries to download files that does not exists (list is here http://slil.ru/26606193) and breaks whole package system by writing in /var/lib/apt/lists in a wrong way. Feb 01 23:01:43 Unless I manually clear /var/lib/apt/lists, apt refuses to do anything and returns errors. Feb 01 23:06:16 How to fix it? Feb 01 23:18:12 Hey stskeeps you there Feb 01 23:31:34 qwerty12_N800: btw, how can I fix that OOM crash? Feb 01 23:31:50 it seems to me that OOM killer kills some DSME protected process Feb 01 23:32:13 why doesn't it swap to another swap first though? Feb 01 23:32:47 the nokia anti-OOM protector doesn't work when you use compcache Feb 01 23:32:57 as it has 128 MB of free ram hardcoded Feb 01 23:34:14 so you need swap then Feb 01 23:34:32 and if you fill that swap, OOMs will happily reap all random processes Feb 01 23:35:11 meh, now, new kernels have a special "oom_protect" flag in process proc entry Feb 01 23:35:15 which root can set to 1 Feb 01 23:35:44 which should be used for watchdog protected processes Feb 01 23:36:18 or was it oom_adj Feb 01 23:36:20 whatever :) Feb 01 23:37:44 * FireFox updates ubuntu jaunty guide to include the new Ubuntu N8x0 repository and adds a screenshot of the error screen Feb 01 23:38:17 (for nit-bootmenu-compat) Feb 01 23:40:35 it seems that oom_adj is set correctly... Feb 01 23:50:28 looks like either OOM killer is bugged (possible, it's 2.6.21) Feb 01 23:50:37 or we run out of kernel memory Feb 01 23:50:52 so it kills whatever random Feb 01 23:51:34 or something else is killing stuff on lack of memory (possible, Nokia shouldn't have messed with OOM) Feb 02 00:53:19 is the speed of swap increased if you have a second swapfile on a second memory card Feb 02 01:02:23 no Feb 02 01:02:33 unless you have a modified swapon Feb 02 01:02:44 then you can have multiple swap files with different priorities Feb 02 01:02:52 uhm Feb 02 01:02:56 with same priority Feb 02 01:03:13 Linux will then spread the writes to both Feb 02 01:04:53 which should be faster (though you might hit another bottleneck - the bus speed) Feb 02 01:05:07 (unlikely though given speed of current flash chips) Feb 02 01:05:50 I had transfers of 2 MB/s. Feb 02 01:06:09 might be faster if you set SD clock faster Feb 02 01:06:32 not sure which bus SD/MMC controller is on Feb 02 01:10:51 so about the prioritys i read about but didnt understand how to change them Feb 02 01:11:18 you can't w/ the default busybox installation Feb 02 01:11:27 because its swapon doesn't support -p flag Feb 02 01:11:33 ok Feb 02 01:11:42 *it's Feb 02 01:13:17 so they will definatly be set with different prioritys Feb 02 01:13:22 ? Feb 02 01:14:23 they will if you use this version of swapon Feb 02 01:14:36 nother version might do it differently Feb 02 01:14:36 thanks Feb 02 01:15:15 (e.g. one from util-linux sets priority to 0 by default) Feb 02 01:15:23 (and supports -p) Feb 02 01:16:04 have you tried that Feb 02 01:18:06 uhm, on NIT no, it's the usual one on any other Linux distro Feb 02 01:18:25 i should release a softsynth for tablets Feb 02 01:18:27 but there is a build of util-linux for NIT too, not easy to install due to conflict with busybox Feb 02 01:18:31 pupnik: do it Feb 02 01:18:37 esp. timidity Feb 02 01:18:46 that's been packaged a few times Feb 02 01:18:48 of course, quality will have to be reduced Feb 02 01:19:05 it's amazingly resource hungry Feb 02 01:19:09 it is. Feb 02 01:19:17 actually, the resampler part is Feb 02 01:19:25 ad that is an excellent target for DSP code Feb 02 01:19:46 you are so right Feb 02 01:19:48 ya i tried befor and gave up Feb 02 01:19:59 you can speed it up by using cubic interpolation or even linear Feb 02 01:20:23 smackpotato: you have to "ignore" the conflict - this means hacking a certain file Feb 02 01:20:34 don't do it - wait for Mer release. Feb 02 01:20:47 ill leave it for others Feb 02 01:21:14 pupnik: it uses very power-hungry Newton polynomial interpolation by default Feb 02 01:21:35 AStorm: ahaa... check this http://ln-s.net/2nSa Feb 02 01:21:51 nice knobs. would be great fun to ln-s them to a virt synth Feb 02 01:22:55 url doesn't seem to work Feb 02 01:23:28 maybe ECN trouble? Feb 02 01:24:59 (i get a connection, but no data) Feb 02 01:25:28 anyway, sleep awaits Feb 02 01:27:30 Hey guys Feb 02 02:46:47 Anyone had trouble with new Mer installer Feb 02 02:49:17 getting libc6 error Feb 02 02:49:42 but I have latest version Feb 02 02:56:39 Do I have to do anything special with maemo for alsa to detect my snd devs? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Feb 02 02:59:57 2009