**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 06 16:41:29 2009 Mar 06 16:41:36 only because their meaning is changing. it just needs categorizing (with your type) what are you hashing? Mar 06 16:42:27 lcuk: hash the content (unneedded if the URLs are canonical) so you don't double count. Mar 06 16:44:09 ahhh jaffa. specifically for itt do the "thanks" things not have this info anyway? and the same for the thumbs from maemo.org. which need specific urls? Mar 06 16:47:24 lcuk: mailing list messages or something? The URL doesn't have to be something a web browser could visit - just something to identify what you're awarding the karma for. Could be, for example, ittthanks://32032/544 Mar 06 16:48:46 hi Mar 06 16:52:28 hi Mar 06 16:52:36 Yeah, Jaffa, you dumbass! Mar 06 16:53:00 I wonder if the Navis are next. Mar 06 16:54:16 haha Mar 06 16:54:24 watch your language or so Mar 06 16:54:55 * GeneralAntilles is pretty sure Jaffa is both Bush and a Nazi. Mar 06 16:55:58 hm Mar 06 16:56:09 woglinde, sorry, more -users insanity. Mar 06 16:56:32 haha no prob Mar 06 16:56:44 GeneralAntilles: I'm getting flashbacks to the voting system emails ;-) Mar 06 16:56:49 I'm *obviously* blind and stupid. Mar 06 16:57:41 Jaffa, but only deliberately so. Which makes it a thousand times worse. :P Mar 06 16:58:07 Jaffa, you clearly agree 100% with his point of view, and are only disagreeing because you're a terrible person. Mar 06 16:58:24 * Jaffa sees a list - which has, in a quick scan, nothing to do with what my point was. Mar 06 16:58:29 * Jaffa gets back to writing evaluations Mar 06 17:00:03 GeneralAntilles: is the most recent email from the same Mark as the one who called me a dimwitted Republican president, blind to the obvious truthiness of his statements? Mar 06 17:00:12 They read like they're from different people Mar 06 17:00:53 Good god he types fast. Mar 06 17:01:08 I might need a beer. Mar 06 17:01:13 mmmm....truthiness Mar 06 17:01:27 may I recommend the kaluha and milk :) Mar 06 17:01:35 goes down much smoother in large quanitities Mar 06 17:02:01 johnx_, you tested that tonight, eh? :P Mar 06 17:02:33 Jaffa, I should probably just unsubscribe from -users. Mar 06 17:02:52 * Jaffa rarely reads the threads there, TBH Mar 06 17:02:53 thanks jaffa, clears it up Mar 06 17:03:05 Constructive things there are usually just met with bile and flames. Mar 06 17:03:24 I'm rather amazed at how much worse than itT it is. Mailing lists are strange entities. Mar 06 17:03:48 GeneralAntilles, 'all you can drink' was a reasonable price... Mar 06 17:03:55 Hehe Mar 06 17:07:22 * lcuk is constantly amazed at how often misc code he writes finds its purpose sometimes years after being coded Mar 06 17:07:52 lcuk *g* Mar 06 17:09:25 latest example, a small but complex equation to do something that i wrote just because in december 2006 and have not used just became urgent today :) Mar 06 17:10:39 I often find myself going back for code I wrote the better part of a decade ago. Mar 06 17:11:48 * Stskeeps tries to understand why application switcher seems only to go the better way of vertical.. Mar 06 17:13:09 Stskeeps: the Maemo one? Probably never intended to do anything else. Mar 06 17:13:32 Stskeeps: tried the one from Ubuntu MID? (or even the one in the netbook remix) Mar 06 17:13:42 heh derf, same here. my current library goes back to 2000 (just because of hte language) Mar 06 17:14:11 Stskeeps, hi. that patch you gave me against cx3110x... is maemo nm supposed to connect with it? Mar 06 17:14:42 I've got plenty of code that goes back farther, but I tend not to use it that much. Mar 06 17:15:05 i have no library from before then :'( Mar 06 17:21:22 slonopotamus: does for me Mar 06 17:21:41 Jaffa: mm, im not sure there's an actual patch for it Mar 06 17:22:26 Stskeeps, argh... i'm doing something wrong. 1) rmmod 2) insmod 3) wlan-cal from initfs 4) connect. have i missed something? Mar 06 17:23:25 slonopotamus: hmm Mar 06 17:23:38 slonopotamus: ifconfig wlan0 up Mar 06 17:24:20 Stskeeps, yep. something else? any magic dances to load firmware or whatever? Mar 06 17:24:38 dmesg Mar 06 17:25:07 Is anybody else getting tons of duplicate emails on -users? Mar 06 17:25:32 Stskeeps, hmm... good point. will try. Mar 06 17:25:52 GeneralAntilles: only more email than I want ;-) Mar 06 17:26:02 GeneralAntilles, shh, it's part of the plan to get people's karma doubled ;) Mar 06 17:26:45 slonopotamus: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-closer.png Mar 06 17:27:29 I like Mark's "distinction" between "Internet" and "web". Mar 06 17:27:59 its teh Interhwebs? Mar 06 17:28:00 X-Fade, can you just run a quick rm -rf --fire on the -users instance of mailman? :P Mar 06 17:28:15 * Myrtti is happy to subscribe only the -community list Mar 06 17:29:04 Stskeeps, err... what's that? :) Mar 06 17:29:42 slonopotamus, that's Mer getting closer to wazd's mockups :) Mar 06 17:30:08 johnx_, oh :) Mar 06 17:30:16 Very exciting :) Mar 06 17:30:39 At the moment, wazd's mer mockups are much more tangible than Fremantle's nebulous overall UI :) Mar 06 17:31:57 hehe Mar 06 17:36:24 god bless magic constants Mar 06 17:36:47 No `const MAX_NUMBER_OF_HORIZONTAL_ICONS = 1'? Mar 06 17:37:45 there isn't much magic in magic constants usually Mar 06 17:37:54 more like a , 1 that actually means , 0 .. Mar 06 17:38:02 (i hope i'm right) Mar 06 17:39:20 something like #define 1 0 // happy debugging, assholes' ? :) Mar 06 17:40:02 Haha Mar 06 17:45:33 more like changing magic constants one place and forgetting to implement it in the other Mar 06 17:45:37 i mean, why bother, it works.. Mar 06 18:01:39 anybody knows where I can find info about the gps that is in the n810? Mar 06 18:01:51 I mean config-info for the nmea stuff? Mar 06 18:12:05 Does anyone know how to start a window manager in Mer on scratchbox? Mar 06 18:19:40 neatojones: i'd personally just use a vmdk. Mar 06 18:19:49 neatojones: start-hildon? (some of the instructions for the chroot could be copied across to the SDK instructions if you were going to test them) Mar 06 18:20:09 Yeah. I tried the directions for SDK. DIdn't work Mar 06 18:20:19 wanted to see if e17 would start on my scratchbox Mar 06 18:20:32 neatojones: oh, so this is a *specific* WM you want to start? Mar 06 18:20:32 neatojones: i wouldn't bet on it :P it's not an emulator, it's a cross-compiling accelerator Mar 06 18:20:46 neatojones: i'd just grab a mer tar.gz and chroot into it Mar 06 18:20:51 I did a VMDK too, but removed it because I was more or less just making packages Mar 06 18:20:58 hmm Mar 06 18:21:02 might just dot that. Mar 06 18:22:20 Jaffa: yes Mar 06 18:22:25 I know the command to start the wm Mar 06 18:22:29 just not in scratchbox Mar 06 18:23:12 the af-sb-init.sh start command was a no-go Mar 06 18:23:29 they all gave permissions errors even with fakeroot Mar 06 18:25:25 ie: mmap: Permission denied Mar 06 18:28:36 moo all again Mar 06 18:38:11 neatojones: see http://inz.fi/blog/2008/01/17/scratchbox-on-hardy/ Mar 06 18:39:00 thank mikkov_ Mar 06 18:39:33 hi there happy tableteers... Mar 06 18:39:49 Q. about repos and pkgs and such... Mar 06 18:40:39 I prefer a simple editor on the command line, like nano... I got nano for an N800 a few weeks ago, but in my notes wrote only gronmayer.com/it Mar 06 18:40:52 but now I look and see it is a meta-repo listing Mar 06 18:41:31 can I either a) do a better search for nano, somewhere in one of those repos (yes I did "find on page" in the browser and did not get it) Mar 06 18:42:14 or b) use the OS to find it and move it to another new tablet.. I notice dpkg does not know about everything I have installed.. I suppose if directly from .deb or something Mar 06 18:46:33 aha, dpkg -l does show nano though... Mar 06 18:47:25 nano is in tools repository: deb http://repository.maemo.org diablo/tools free non-free Mar 06 18:47:56 http://maemo.org/development/tools/ Mar 06 18:49:13 mikkov_: looking Mar 06 18:49:38 mikkov_: how did you find that? Mar 06 18:50:59 darkblue_B: I just know stuff :) Mar 06 18:51:13 :-( Mar 06 18:52:22 MAAAGGIC Mar 06 18:53:02 you guys were the ones that kicked under classmen in Jr High School too, huh? Mar 06 18:53:07 * lcuk wonders if Myrtti has taken her medication today :P Mar 06 18:53:37 s/kicked/sat on/ Mar 06 18:53:38 darkblue_B meant: you guys were the ones that sat on under classmen in Jr High School too, huh? Mar 06 18:53:44 lcuk: I'm just cheery, I had a wicked cool idea and I'm cooking Mar 06 18:54:22 * Myrtti doesn't get what darkblue_B means, but doesn't strain her brain with it, and goes back to cook Mar 06 18:54:37 * lcuk goes round to Myrtti's for tea Mar 06 18:54:43 what ya cooking? Mar 06 18:54:57 Myrtti: if someone answers a search quesiton once, I never have to ask again, because I can then do it myself Mar 06 18:55:01 or is this yourtop secret code idea Mar 06 18:55:28 Myrtti: if you reply MAAGGIC then I dont know how to do it myself Mar 06 18:55:41 thats what I meant Mar 06 18:55:50 darkblue_B: oh, ok. Mar 06 18:56:37 * lcuk wanted to take nokia with him today Mar 06 18:56:44 but the damned battery was flat Mar 06 18:56:55 lcuk: I guess it could be called chili con carne, though I'm doing it with fresh bell peppers, leek, peperoni peppers, mince, kidney beans, crushed tomatoes, served with steamed barley/jasmine rice Mar 06 18:58:05 mmmm sounds good, bet your house smells devine Mar 06 18:58:50 are there any cooking.recipe programs for nit Mar 06 18:59:06 ones with a timer and binger things Mar 06 18:59:18 yerga's pyrecipe iirc Mar 06 18:59:21 cos tracy does all hers currently using her nokia phone and loads of manual timers Mar 06 18:59:34 cool Mar 06 18:59:44 so apparently I use the string -> deb http://repository.maemo.org diablo/tools free non-free Mar 06 18:59:49 lcuk: not sure on the name but I know yerga has ported one and made one himself Mar 06 19:00:24 file /etc/apt/sources.list is empty Mar 06 19:00:50 darkblue_B: there are installation instuctions at http://maemo.org/development/tools/ Mar 06 19:01:03 mikkov_: looking Mar 06 19:01:43 nice.. thx Mar 06 19:01:50 just forget the fakeroot thing on tablet Mar 06 19:02:32 * RST38h salivates Mar 06 19:02:41 Myrtti: You should have given all these details... Mar 06 19:03:04 RST38h: hmmm? O:-) Mar 06 19:03:11 Myrtti, have you got yourself an 8x0 now or are you still on 770 Mar 06 19:03:46 lcuk: 10d, 4h, 46m, 20s till I'm in UK and could get my hands on my n800 Mar 06 19:04:14 i take it thats a no Mar 06 19:04:18 for now :P Mar 06 19:04:20 I can install stuff to it by proxy though :-P Mar 06 19:04:58 Myrtti: you should get x11vnc on it :) Mar 06 19:04:59 heh Mar 06 19:05:15 "application installed, press OK to continue" Mar 06 19:05:52 hi there fiferboy how goes it Mar 06 19:05:52 mikkov_: fake root? Mar 06 19:05:53 my technique is a bit more finetuned Mar 06 19:06:15 "durlin, could you please install this software to my n800 and tell me if it's any good, kthx" Mar 06 19:06:18 VNC over carrier pigeon? Mar 06 19:06:27 *blinkblink* Mar 06 19:06:27 lol Mar 06 19:06:34 lcuk: Pretty good. Trying to find time to go back over my maemo4 apps, and try out maemo5 SDK Mar 06 19:06:36 400 not 410? :-) Mar 06 19:06:38 hey Andrew :) Mar 06 19:07:13 mikkov_: oh, some scratch box reference Mar 06 19:07:22 heh fiferboy we are all trying to find time to do everything Mar 06 19:07:32 yeah I am skipping that.. at some point I could put a MER in a VM.. but now now Mar 06 19:07:51 heem Mar 06 19:08:20 * lcuk doesnt see how or why people use virtual tablets, the touchscreen feel and responsiveness of the app is vital Mar 06 19:08:45 Hey Faheem Mar 06 19:08:50 development.. if you are referring to MER or scratchbox Mar 06 19:09:05 * lcuk develops directly on diablo Mar 06 19:10:50 lcuk: you type with the stylus too ? Mar 06 19:11:37 lbt: Does shopper build against qt 4.5 in diablo? Mar 06 19:11:48 darkblue_B, no, i type on my big keyboard usually, but when i am out and about i use the little one or my apple bt keyboard Mar 06 19:13:21 well I enabled Red Pill Mode on a new N800, added diablo/tools, checked "Show All Packages" in Applicatin Manager prefs, and I still dont see the nano package :-/ Mar 06 19:14:03 try "apt-get install nano" Mar 06 19:14:12 ok Mar 06 19:14:59 mikkov_: ok, working, thx Mar 06 19:15:10 fiferboy: hope so... Mar 06 19:15:23 not tried yet - the deb is against 4.4 Mar 06 19:15:31 I want to try out finger scrolling, but I have 4.5 installed on my tablet Mar 06 19:15:43 Trying to build in scratchbox I get an error Mar 06 19:15:59 get the source... dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b Mar 06 19:16:03 what error? Mar 06 19:16:17 src/CatListModel.cc: In member function `virtual QVariant Shopper::CatListModel::headerData(int, Qt::Orientation, int) const': Mar 06 19:16:17 /opt/qt45/include/qt4/QtCore/qvariant.h:408: error: `QVariant::QVariant(void*)' is private Mar 06 19:16:17 src/CatListModel.cc:88: error: within this context Mar 06 19:16:48 OK - that's possibly a tightening up and a bug Mar 06 19:17:49 now to find that "Show IP" app.. priceless Mar 06 19:19:00 Do you think it is caused by a change between 4.4 and 4.5? Mar 06 19:19:07 fiferboy: I'm off out now - email me and try me tomorrow... david@dgreaves.com Mar 06 19:19:10 but yes I do Mar 06 19:19:21 Will do. Thanks Mar 06 19:19:22 it compiles fine for me and http://doc.trolltech.com/4.5/qvariant.html Mar 06 19:19:24 looks OK Mar 06 19:19:26 "home ip" Mar 06 19:19:38 I'll work on it. It might be my build set up Mar 06 19:19:40 I may need to do QVariant(QString("Ptr")) Mar 06 19:19:45 but shouldn't Mar 06 19:19:48 anyhow l8r Mar 06 19:20:51 qt. evil. Mar 06 19:21:17 RST38h: How so? Mar 06 19:22:52 fiferboy: just is. Mar 06 19:23:13 For developing or using? Mar 06 19:23:19 I like it for both Mar 06 19:24:14 it is probably lesser of two evils when compared to gtk Mar 06 19:24:50 I kinda prefer gtk UIs more though, dunno why, they just look lighter Mar 06 19:25:32 My main objection is to the C++. Mar 06 19:25:49 The use of their own special pre-processor doesn't help. Mar 06 19:27:38 * guysoft42 just installed debian chroot and is blown away by it - its so cool! Mar 06 19:27:49 derf: evil! Mar 06 19:27:54 derf: You mean that it isn't "true" c++? Mar 06 19:28:07 Or the use of c++ at all? Mar 06 19:28:19 qt makes c++ bareable Mar 06 19:28:44 fiferboy: having a preprocessor makes things a bit more difficult Mar 06 19:29:00 fiferboy: Yes. Mar 06 19:29:14 i dono. i know c++ is nice because its fast but i am a lazy programer and i like python and eclipse really.. i only use c when there is no escape Mar 06 19:29:26 C++ is not fast. Mar 06 19:29:38 well its faster than python Mar 06 19:29:52 Okay, but totally not a comparable language. Mar 06 19:30:06 derf, we have in our foss community here someone that built a CMS on c++ Mar 06 19:30:06 lcuk, RST38h: todays lunch, and dinner at http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/archives/date-posted/2009/03/06/ Mar 06 19:30:31 he wanted to show its the way to go and that languages like PHP and perl etc only make it less efficient Mar 06 19:31:35 i think he made his proof , his CMS is pretty fast, and he even got it to be compatible with embedded systems Mar 06 19:32:22 * Sho_ finds the preprocessor animosity overblown Mar 06 19:32:29 c++ is not fast??! Mar 06 19:32:34 whoops Mar 06 19:32:56 almost every commercial application is written in c++, fyi Mar 06 19:33:09 derf, well all languages could be compared, although not all are used for the same purpose. from the programmer side all languages have a common goal - to be easy to use (well except fukbrain) Mar 06 19:33:21 would you perhaps mean Midgard? Mar 06 19:33:27 guysoft42: and brainfuck? Mar 06 19:34:21 though, I'm not sure myself what tinopeners, perpetuum mobiles and hacksaws are used to make midgard... Mar 06 19:34:21 derf: C++ is as fast as C if you know what you are doing Mar 06 19:34:22 Myrtti, yes that one.. Mar 06 19:34:30 RST38h: That is a huge IF. Mar 06 19:34:42 guysoft42: that would be the one that maemo.org runs on :-) Mar 06 19:34:42 derf -> under-informed Mar 06 19:34:42 derf: I am ok with it Mar 06 19:34:48 I've worked with quite a number of C++ programmers. Mar 06 19:34:55 None of them knew what they were doing. Mar 06 19:34:56 darkblue: May I ask you a question? Mar 06 19:35:04 sure.. Mar 06 19:35:05 IF exists in both (double mening!) Mar 06 19:35:10 derf: Well, hire some good ones Mar 06 19:35:12 (dons flame retardent) Mar 06 19:35:27 darkblue: How C++ being used in many commercial applications makes it fast? Mar 06 19:35:33 RST38h: If they were good, they wouldn't use C++. Mar 06 19:35:39 lol Mar 06 19:35:39 *sigh* Mar 06 19:35:45 derf: And what would they use? Mar 06 19:35:52 RST38h: he's a troll Mar 06 19:36:03 i think you are overrating commercial Mar 06 19:36:04 Pavlov: And I am an internet predator Mar 06 19:36:11 * Myrtti gives everyone a lollipop Mar 06 19:36:14 If you actually care about speed, you cannot hide all of your abstractions, so you're much better off with C. Mar 06 19:36:18 ok, so the story goes.. Barny Stroustroup is at a party.. mr CS PhD from Berkeley sees him and heads straight over Mar 06 19:36:30 i think mainly they have to work with what they already have.. it takes loger to shift Mar 06 19:36:32 derf: lol Mar 06 19:36:33 derf: So they would use C? Mar 06 19:36:39 If you actually care about a high level language and development time, you should use an actual high level language that supports things like garbage collection. Mar 06 19:36:47 derf sounds a lot like someone who doesn't actually know how to use C++ Mar 06 19:36:55 Stroustroup sees him coming from 10 feet away and says premptively, "I know, C++ is screwed up" Mar 06 19:37:07 .. urban legend / true story Mar 06 19:37:22 so, in short, I am not going to be the one sitting here defending c++ !! Mar 06 19:37:25 derf: All right, would you care to explain what part of C++ makes it slow? Mar 06 19:37:35 no part of C++ makes it slow Mar 06 19:37:42 but, its under-informed to say c++ is "slow", especially in the same breath as python Mar 06 19:37:47 honestly i just have c++ as a university course now.. but in dont go to it.. i know C already. and python, so i can i figure things out Mar 06 19:37:48 you can write stupid code in any language Mar 06 19:38:04 darkblue_B, yep.. Mar 06 19:38:09 Pavlov: yep Mar 06 19:38:16 Regarding Qt's preprocessor, it's used to implement useful things that make the toolkit's API significantly more convenient. And at the time it was conceived, there was no other viable way of doing it. That said, Qt has never used the preprocessor in an attempt to do lock-in - it generally interoperates well with the STL, and you're e.g. free to use boost's template-based signals-and-slots instead of Qt's preprocessor-based ones (the template route wasn't viable back Mar 06 19:38:17 Pavlov, yep egain Mar 06 19:38:17 Myrtti: this is cruel of you to show this stuff to someone who only had two slices of bread with cheese Mar 06 19:38:18 then, due to poor compiler support). Mar 06 19:38:19 again* Mar 06 19:38:20 The point is that C++ _encourages_ writing stupid code much more than, say, C does. Mar 06 19:38:27 no it doesn't Mar 06 19:38:41 RST38h: if you're nearby Tampere, Finland, I've got plenty to share ;-) Mar 06 19:38:41 * darkblue_B tunes out derf Mar 06 19:38:44 derf: Sorry but could you tell exactly what part of C++ makes it slow? Mar 06 19:38:47 when a C app gets over a few thousand lines of code they start reimplementing vtables Mar 06 19:39:07 in moments like this i truly feel that irc doesn't scale Mar 06 19:39:12 i liked python's attitude that you carn't not-indent.. at least if you write stupid code you stupidity is visible Mar 06 19:39:12 * darkblue_B wrote commercial sfwr for 16 years Mar 06 19:39:14 derf: (btw, I *know* what parts of C++ may make your program slow, so just checking if you kow what you are talking about) Mar 06 19:39:58 I'm not terribly interested in playing quiz games just to prove how smart I am. Mar 06 19:39:59 Myrtti: Too far Mar 06 19:40:16 derf: its ok, you already failed Mar 06 19:40:28 derf: [scratching head] Just verifying that you know what you are talking about Mar 06 19:40:28 * guysoft42 just noticed that his double-negative means we need also a new english language release candidate Mar 06 19:40:58 lts drp ll vwls t sv sm spc Mar 06 19:41:28 r/win 23 Mar 06 19:41:31 RST38h, error on line 1: e expected in word Mar 06 19:41:51 :D Mar 06 19:41:54 FF3 update has arrived Mar 06 19:42:45 RST38h, is it such a drama? so its 3.0.0.0.0.0.4 and not 3.0.0.0.0.0.03 Mar 06 19:43:06 guysoft: No idea, but the last update did manage to break something Mar 06 19:43:48 * RST38h really needs wazd now: TI83+ is finally working but there is no skin for it Mar 06 19:43:53 RST38h, i have on my debian system here 779 new updates.. i need to free disk space to see another update.. Mar 06 19:44:14 RST38h: If I thought there was a chance for an actual productive conversation among this crowd, I might care, but I can see that there is not. Mar 06 19:44:17 RST38h, i wonder when they run out of security holes. looks like never. Mar 06 19:44:30 guysoft: Ah that is easy, delete Evolution and OpenOffice :) Mar 06 19:44:33 RST38h, is the source out there yet? i would like that thing on my PCs.. Mar 06 19:44:59 RST38h: the pink hellokitty calculator? Mar 06 19:45:00 derf: Well, I tried to make a productive conversation by asking which features of C++ you consider detrimental to performance Mar 06 19:45:01 :-> Mar 06 19:45:06 RST38h: "qt is evil" wasn't a much more differenciated statement than derf's C++ comments, tho' Mar 06 19:45:12 RST38h, na - the mail folder in Evolution takes more space than all the debs.. well , maybe just the lib* packages Mar 06 19:45:13 Myrtti: Sadly, it is laid out for the Silver Edition Mar 06 19:45:21 *snifff* Mar 06 19:45:33 Myrtti: But yes, I have got that skin and it is DEFINITELY coming to Extras once I have TI83+SE working =) Mar 06 19:45:48 guysoft: Kill and move to GMail Mar 06 19:45:51 well i could always do updates now on debian chroot .. yay.. Mar 06 19:46:07 RST38h, i use imap.. i have it on 2 computers + nokia now Mar 06 19:46:12 Sho_: When I make such statements, I am usually joking or trolling =) Mar 06 19:46:28 RST38h: Maybe derf is a big jokster, too ;-) Mar 06 19:46:39 RST38h: You mean besides virtual functions, virtual base classes, constructors, exceptions, templates... Mar 06 19:46:41 RST38h, was funny that week when g-mail fell. people kept complaining, and i didn't know why.. Mar 06 19:46:50 Sho: But don't be careless, if I really want to, I will shit all over qt, c++, or any other topic =) Mar 06 19:47:08 RST38h: Do some qt shitting then, that would interest me ;) Mar 06 19:47:10 woooo! qemu 0.10.0 released! Mar 06 19:48:37 Sho: Well, custom preprocessor and binary API changing with each new version, if you wish Mar 06 19:48:50 derf: All right Mar 06 19:49:11 RST38h: Qt maintains ABI stability in major release series, actually Mar 06 19:49:26 derf: To start with, templates do not really affect performance, they are compile time feature. They are messy all right, but performance is not involved Mar 06 19:49:39 * guysoft42 is running kstars on my nokia N810 over debian chroot Mar 06 19:50:01 RST38h: Tell that to the 8MB binaries and 100MB libraries that have to be loaded because someone decided to use templates and instantiated 1,000 different ones. Mar 06 19:50:02 derf: Now, virtual functions and virtual base classes: these are simply arrays of handler pointers, widely used in C as well (see gtk for example) Mar 06 19:50:15 say - is there a way to access the debian chroot start menu? that would really be cool, would mean its just like using the normal repository.. Mar 06 19:50:21 RST38h: As for the preprocessor, see the ' Regarding Qt's preprocessor [...]' line Mar 06 19:50:22 derf: You have to be aware that they cause a pointer dereference and use them with caution Mar 06 19:50:44 RST38h: Sure, but C++ hides that fact, and most programmers do not treat it with caution. Mar 06 19:50:51 My argument was that it _encourages_ bad behavior. Mar 06 19:50:54 derf: C++ does not hade that fact Mar 06 19:50:57 Not that you can't write good code. Mar 06 19:51:10 derf: It clearly requires you to write VIRTUAL in front of such pointers Mar 06 19:51:39 derf: Now, constructors: if you do not want to initialize stuff (just like in C) you do not need to povide a constructor Mar 06 19:51:50 anyone here playing with easy debian chroot? Mar 06 19:51:53 derf: But a lot of C programs have Init() functions Mar 06 19:52:11 derf: C++ constructor lets you write such a function in intelligent manner Mar 06 19:52:36 derf: when you do memset(&Var,0,sizeof(Var)) in C, you pretty much run a constructor Mar 06 19:52:58 RST38h: No, it requires some guy who defined your base class to write virtual in front of them. Mar 06 19:53:03 * guysoft42 throws an exception at that constructor Mar 06 19:53:05 derf: Now, the only remaining feature you listed is exceptions and these DO waste performance Mar 06 19:53:15 derf: no it does not Mar 06 19:53:22 And C++ constructors run repeatedly and _uselessly_. Mar 06 19:53:32 derf: Who told you that? Mar 06 19:53:50 derf: If I write a constructor, it means I WANT it to run. Mar 06 19:54:01 And require an extremely intelligent compiler to actually figure out how to optimize out all of the useless crap and temporary objects in return-by-value calls, etc. Mar 06 19:54:10 mmm? Mar 06 19:54:13 * darkblue_B dips in the memory pool Mar 06 19:54:25 hell kstars takes 55MB of ram.. Mar 06 19:54:38 A lot of people and companies simply do not use exceptions, as a policy Mar 06 19:54:57 Not even for performance reasons but because exceptions mess up execution flow too badly Mar 06 19:55:03 Which is fine, as long as you don't want to use any third-party libraries. Mar 06 19:55:18 derf: None of the base C++ libs use exceptions Mar 06 19:55:24 templates yes, exceptions no Mar 06 19:55:38 as to third party stuff, C++ is not responsible for it as a language Mar 06 19:55:41 Which is the real danger of C++... you can confine _yourself_ to a useful subset. You cannot confine others. Mar 06 19:56:00 I can ignore those others who do wrong stuff from my POV Mar 06 19:56:15 Well, that's fine if you want to write all the code yourself. Mar 06 19:56:22 Not necessarily Mar 06 19:56:22 That's an extremely limited way to build software, however. Mar 06 19:56:31 RST38h: So for example, Qt maintained binary compatibility from Qt 3 in early 2001 until Qt 4 in summer 2005, and then again for Qt 4 until now (and Qt 5 is many years off) Mar 06 19:56:45 I do not ignore EVERYBODY, just choosing tools and libraries that are sane and safe to use Mar 06 19:57:17 Sho: Which is exactly why our product has to link both qt4 and qt3 Mar 06 19:57:25 i had to give in an assignment a few weeks ago for c++ in university, we were told to build a constructor and validate the input given to it.. so natrualy i found i had to use an exception for that - since you carn't return anything from a constructor.. aprently its not included in the course.. so you can imagine all the people leaning it would not know that untill later. might be too late by then Mar 06 19:58:07 RST38h: There were very few of these when I gave up on C++ completely (around 2000). Now every other kid wants to use all this boost crap, which I do not consider an improvement. Mar 06 19:58:07 guysoft: Of course, there is another way to doit Mar 06 19:58:18 RST38h: Or you could port it (and use qt3support). In any case, I'm not aware of any open source toolkit that has done significantly better on binary compatibility. Mar 06 19:58:34 guysoft: If you have got wrong input, you set your object into "invalid" state and make all methods fail. Mar 06 19:58:50 Sho: libc :) Mar 06 19:58:59 RST38h: libc is a great GUI toolkit for sure ;) Mar 06 19:59:12 Sho: You did not say "GUI" :) Mar 06 19:59:31 RST38h: It's implied considering Qt is one ;) Mar 06 19:59:42 guysoft: Using exceptions here is unwarranted, unless your instructor told you to use them Mar 06 19:59:54 (Not that I want to discourage you from writing non-GUI Qt apps using qt-core, mind you) Mar 06 20:00:49 derf: As I said, if you are stupid, no language is going to help you Mar 06 20:01:04 This is categorically not true. Mar 06 20:01:06 derf: C+, C, Java, Visual Basic, FORTRAN - you can screw up in any language Mar 06 20:01:27 You will of course screw up a bit differently every time Mar 06 20:01:28 Yes, but one language hands you a loaded gun with the nozzle tied to your toes. Mar 06 20:01:40 C++ does? Mmm Mar 06 20:02:03 Well, by all means, use that gun, get fired, switch to PHP. Mar 06 20:02:12 (A large amount of successful and performant C++ software would seem to be evidence to the contrary) Mar 06 20:02:42 There are tons of things wrong with Java, but the one thing going for it is that it makes mediocre programmers relatively useful. Mar 06 20:03:04 Java does? And for what purpose do they become useful? Mar 06 20:03:13 I work for a defense contractor with tons of mediocre programmers. Mar 06 20:03:16 Are there any useful tools written in Java? Mar 06 20:03:23 Actually I'd say that's what makes Java a problem, especially its use in teaching: It lowers the standard :-) Mar 06 20:03:24 Eclipse? :) Mar 06 20:04:33 There are volumes upon volumes of middleware written in Java, because businesses can hire these mediocre programmers, sit them down, and have them do a bunch of plumbing, and at the end things mostly work. Mar 06 20:04:53 Middleware? :) Is it useful? :) Mar 06 20:05:05 And can't a small PERL script do the same thing? :) Mar 06 20:05:36 It's useful enough that a bunch of businesses spent a ton of money on it. Mar 06 20:05:57 Personally I don't like to write plumbing. But there is a _huge_ market for it. Mar 06 20:05:59 Perl programmers, of course, go through two phases: In phase I, nobody can read their code, because they don't know the language. In phase II, nobody can read their code, because they know the language. Mar 06 20:06:02 Well, that is mainly a function of agressivness in marketing Mar 06 20:06:09 Isn't there a #c++ or something this can go to? Mar 06 20:06:18 It's not the year 2000. If all they were was marketing, they wouldn't be here anymore. Mar 06 20:06:19 derf, yeah and most of that business logic is held up with data access so no matter the performance level it doesnt matter Mar 06 20:06:27 General: They probably ban for that =) Mar 06 20:06:28 lcuk: Exactly. Mar 06 20:06:37 I'm all for offtopic, but you've monopolized the channel for almost an hour now and it's time to move on. Mar 06 20:06:37 Java is not a good language for performance, but it doesn't matter. Mar 06 20:06:41 thats why visual basic works Mar 06 20:06:51 VB no longer works, replaced with C# Mar 06 20:06:53 same principle Mar 06 20:07:03 GeneralAntilles: You're probably righr, especially since the debate isn't exactly breaking new ground Mar 06 20:07:06 *right Mar 06 20:07:10 yeah but thats same thing Mar 06 20:07:17 Sho: Yea, it is the same old shit basically Mar 06 20:07:21 tho now - microsoft have shot themselves in the foot by doing GUI in the same Mar 06 20:07:30 Well, I said at the beginning I did not expect this conversation to be productive. Mar 06 20:07:31 and the users have noticed Mar 06 20:07:47 Though at least RST38h was cogent and did not attack me personally. Mar 06 20:07:52 Sho: I kinda hoped for some original entertainment Mar 06 20:08:11 derf: Attacking opponent personally is considered loss Mar 06 20:08:14 RST38h: and I always fall into the anti-preprocessor flame trap ;-) Mar 06 20:08:33 GeneralAntilles, conversation (even arguments) are good from time to time Mar 06 20:08:37 derf: Unless you do it in a really artistic way, pushing opponent toward eventual suicide Mar 06 20:08:55 lcuk, this one ran out its usefulness a long time ago Mar 06 20:09:05