**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Apr 12 02:59:57 2009
Apr 12 03:34:12 * b-man trys to boot Darwin on his N800 using qemu
Apr 12 03:35:28 <b-man> (MacOS X base)
Apr 12 03:43:19 <luke-jr> b-man: sick :p
Apr 12 03:45:33 <zakkm> lol
Apr 12 03:45:51 <zakkm> if you get aqua working, id be impressed :P
Apr 12 03:47:42 <GeneralAntilles> Aqua is closed source.
Apr 12 03:47:59 <GeneralAntilles> and Darwin isn't close enough to OS X for that to be feasible.
Apr 12 03:48:02 <zakkm> that just means he cant release it
Apr 12 03:48:16 <zakkm> if hes running in qemu, he can use mac disc iso?"
Apr 12 03:48:29 <GeneralAntilles> Not enough RAM
Apr 12 03:48:42 <zakkm> i didnt mean usable
Apr 12 03:49:22 <GeneralAntilles> No, seriously, not enough RAM to boot.
Apr 12 03:49:42 <zakkm> oh
Apr 12 04:56:29 <pupnik> http://www.pvv.org/~shane/stasj/pics/humor/4621.html  Finland kicks butt.
Apr 12 05:17:42 <zakkm> :)
Apr 12 06:01:38 <thux> morning
Apr 12 07:14:23 <Shasie> Hi all
Apr 12 08:22:04 <RST38h> "We hacked internally Clutter to work in N810 but due legal reasons we were unable to release needed OpenGL-ES drivers for N810."
Apr 12 08:24:12 <lbt> :(
Apr 12 08:24:25 <RST38h> Lovely, isn't it?
Apr 12 08:24:49 <GeneralAntilles> They're working on it.
Apr 12 08:25:04 <GeneralAntilles> The legal reasons are outlined on the driver justification talk page.
Apr 12 08:25:07 <lbt> for 810?
Apr 12 08:25:13 <RST38h> Nobody is working on N810 any more.
Apr 12 08:25:22 <GeneralAntilles> lbt, for OMAP2
Apr 12 08:25:33 <RST38h> GAN: Ah, so there is still hope? =)
Apr 12 08:25:45 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, yeah, qgil made it public a few weeks ago on itT.
Apr 12 08:25:47 * lbt has to go and lookup OMAP
Apr 12 08:25:53 <GeneralAntilles> For shame, lbt.
Apr 12 08:26:07 <GeneralAntilles> I fixed up the OMAP wiki page recently, though, so you should be good to go. :P
Apr 12 08:26:09 * lbt mutters about UML2
Apr 12 08:28:15 * lbt can't find an omap wiki page...
Apr 12 08:28:40 <Pavlov> then you aren't trying very hard
Apr 12 08:29:00 <lbt> https://wiki.maemo.org/Special:Search?search=omap&go=Go
Apr 12 08:29:02 <Pavlov> first hit for "omap wiki" on google is something useful
Apr 12 08:29:32 <lbt> ah, GeneralAntilles meant the OMAP wikipedia page.... he's usually very precise
Apr 12 08:29:58 <GeneralAntilles> b.m.o, lbt. :P
Apr 12 08:30:19 <lbt> MR maemo.org, not Maemo.org .... <sigh>    so fuzzy....
Apr 12 08:30:32 * lbt ducks
Apr 12 08:30:33 <Pavlov> b.m.o is so confusing
Apr 12 08:30:54 <lbt> yeah "bite me" has no "o"
Apr 12 08:31:22 * lbt looks for the bmo wiki*pedia* page
Apr 12 08:31:23 <Pavlov> mm, i was thinking of some other reasons
Apr 12 08:31:58 <GeneralAntilles> bugs.maemo.org bugs.mozilla.org
Apr 12 08:32:07 <Pavlov> bugzilla.mozilla.org, but yeah
Apr 12 08:32:09 <GeneralAntilles> I usually just call it bugzilla for more ambiguity and confusion. ;)
Apr 12 08:32:14 <GeneralAntilles> er, right
Apr 12 08:32:19 * GeneralAntilles doesn't go there very often. :P
Apr 12 08:42:46 <Stskeeps> so any news from maemoland since i was offline for 5 hours? :P
Apr 12 08:43:34 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, we decided on a new uniform for Stskeeps.
Apr 12 08:44:03 <Stskeeps> oh boy.
Apr 12 08:44:05 <Stskeeps> latex?
Apr 12 08:44:06 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 12 08:44:11 <GeneralAntilles> You'll find out at the Summit. :P
Apr 12 08:44:15 <Stskeeps> hehe
Apr 12 08:45:06 <Stskeeps> damn.. september will be a busy month
Apr 12 08:45:19 <Stskeeps> moving to poland, probable thesis exam, summit..
Apr 12 08:45:58 <RST38h> General: Given that he is moving to Poland, I have got an idea
Apr 12 08:46:14 <Stskeeps> bringing vodka to summit? :P
Apr 12 08:46:26 <RST38h> No, no...
Apr 12 08:46:58 <RST38h> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_sign (see Polish Police chevron)
Apr 12 08:47:44 <RST38h> Of course, the whole uniform should be black, with thin silvery stripes everywhere, but Darth Vader helmet is optional
Apr 12 08:52:51 <reisio> oooh, neat
Apr 12 09:05:01 <aquatix> good moaning
Apr 12 09:06:13 <RST38h> moo aquatix
Apr 12 10:40:08 <lbt> This is an interesting LWN article on vendors and Linux       http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/327878/722b0fef064e1779/   preaching to the converted but some succint comments and arguments in there
Apr 12 10:41:57 <wazd> Hello maemo
Apr 12 10:42:10 <Stskeeps> lbt: mm, mtc might find it interesting
Apr 12 10:42:49 * lbt nods
Apr 12 10:43:04 <lbt> can you send me that config.log? or too hard?
Apr 12 10:43:51 <Stskeeps> only by re-creating the build, which i can
Apr 12 10:44:02 <Stskeeps> http://trac.tspre.orgÆ:8000 otherwise
Apr 12 10:44:05 <Stskeeps> http://trac.tspre.orgÆ:8000 otherwise
Apr 12 10:44:06 <Stskeeps> ..
Apr 12 10:44:12 <Stskeeps> http://trac.tspre.ororgÃ:8000 otherwise
Apr 12 10:44:16 <Stskeeps> wtf is with my terminal
Apr 12 10:44:19 <Stskeeps> bloody ubuntu.
Apr 12 10:44:27 <lbt> heh
Apr 12 10:44:27 <Stskeeps> trac . tspre .org port 8000 :P
Apr 12 10:45:19 <GeneralAntilles> If Linux ever wants to succeed on the desktop, it needs a DE that doesn't totally suck.
Apr 12 10:45:21 <Stskeeps> this close to just installing mer on it
Apr 12 10:46:07 <lbt> nah - need the internal detail of config.log.... nevermind
Apr 12 10:46:17 <Stskeeps> i'll push a build so you can get one, lbt
Apr 12 10:46:43 <lbt> 'k I'd just like to unblock glib...
Apr 12 10:48:01 <Stskeeps> monitor trac.tspre.org builder for a glib log i guess
Apr 12 10:48:06 <Stskeeps> i started it with accelerated gcc
Apr 12 10:49:18 <lbt> where is the build happening ? on trac.tspre.org ?
Apr 12 10:49:30 <lbt> or your local vm
Apr 12 10:49:46 <Stskeeps> a mer vmdk inside a machine at my work
Apr 12 10:49:54 <Stskeeps> using qemu-not-7007
Apr 12 10:50:16 <Stskeeps> build might be slow though cos of the bloody flowstops problem
Apr 12 10:50:58 <lbt> I need the config.log from running ./configure    - yes? Which is only in the filesystem on that machine AFAIK
Apr 12 10:52:38 <Stskeeps> i'll have one for you soon
Apr 12 10:52:57 <lbt> OK - ta
Apr 12 10:53:23 <lbt> wasn't sure if you meant me to monitor a dir somewhere :) NP though
Apr 12 11:36:36 <qwerty12_N800> ello lcuk
Apr 12 11:40:27 <lcuk> hiya qwerty12_N800 \o
Apr 12 11:52:45 <aquatix> hahaha: http://failblog.org/2009/04/01/product-fail/
Apr 12 11:54:51 <RST38h> It's bacon!
Apr 12 11:55:33 <RST38h> It is April 1st post though
Apr 12 11:56:26 <RST38h> This one is way better though: http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/fail-owned-headline-fail.jpg?w=500&h=282
Apr 12 12:11:51 <lopz> hola
Apr 12 12:17:13 <wazd> http://s54.radikal.ru/i144/0904/a3/ba07f472fc19.jpg <- Mer
Apr 12 12:17:22 <wazd> Mer's stylus kb :)
Apr 12 12:18:14 <lbt> how well does it work when you rotate the screen
Apr 12 12:18:40 <wazd> lbt: well, that's special mode for portrait input
Apr 12 12:19:08 <wazd> lbt: it will have another layout for landscape
Apr 12 12:19:32 <lbt> just mentioning it as the maemo one is a bit poor
Apr 12 12:40:36 <wazd> lbt: hmm, why so?
Apr 12 12:41:13 <aquatix> wazd: wow, that statusbar looks great
Apr 12 12:41:28 * aquatix afk again :)
Apr 12 12:41:29 <aquatix> ciao
Apr 12 15:42:00 <b-man> i managed to get FreeBSD and FreeDOS booted in Mer with qemu on my tablet :D
Apr 12 15:42:02 <b-man> http://www.bman.maemobox.org/projects/mer/screenshots/screenshot01.png
Apr 12 15:42:20 <b-man> http://www.bman.maemobox.org/projects/mer/screenshots/screenshot00.png
Apr 12 15:43:31 <Stskeeps> crazy :P
Apr 12 15:43:38 <b-man> XD
Apr 12 15:44:24 * b-man also was successful with NITdroid emmulation with omap2 support
Apr 12 15:45:04 <b-man> i could literary run Mer in Mer XD
Apr 12 15:45:22 <Stskeeps> yeah, but that's just vaguely insane :P
Apr 12 15:45:34 <Stskeeps> good to know it works though
Apr 12 15:45:44 <b-man> XD
Apr 12 15:46:17 * b-man admits that he can be a bit crazy XD
Apr 12 15:47:41 <b-man> i'm just too curious for my own good ;)
Apr 12 16:45:23 <lakin> Are there any good resources for how to setup the SDL main screen and blit to it for optimal performance with the n810?
Apr 12 16:48:51 <lakin> http://maemo.org/community/wiki/gamedevelopment/ redirects to the main wiki page. :/
Apr 12 16:50:11 <lakin> http://wiki.maemo.org/Game_development works tho
Apr 12 17:04:20 <GeneralAntilles> UI discussions are so much fun.
Apr 12 17:04:34 <lcuk> where at this time gan
Apr 12 17:04:48 <GeneralAntilles> itT, as usual.
Apr 12 17:05:17 <lcuk> heh
Apr 12 17:05:33 <lcuk> i made a toolbar seedling :) -> http://liqbase.net/liq.20090412_170810.lib.scr.png
Apr 12 17:05:40 <GeneralAntilles> They always come down to everybody's got an opinion (just like assholes) and 10 other assumptions about how they think other people do or should use their devices.
Apr 12 17:05:54 <GeneralAntilles> I don't get what the end-of-the-world fuss is over the stylus.
Apr 12 17:06:15 <lcuk> you are talking to the wrong person
Apr 12 17:06:18 <GeneralAntilles> It's as if they think Nokia's going to magically disallow their silly desktop ports.
Apr 12 17:06:36 * Stskeeps will be happy as long as he can run Mer on it.
Apr 12 17:06:40 <GeneralAntilles> If the stylus really were going away, they wouldn't be using a resistive panel. ;)
Apr 12 17:06:57 <lcuk> they havent got a defined stylus on the 97 have they
Apr 12 17:07:02 <lcuk> its a plectrum
Apr 12 17:07:40 <glass> 5800 has a stylus. also ships with a plek
Apr 12 17:08:33 <lcuk> ive only seen the plectrum (nice as it is) its not quite the same for writing with
Apr 12 17:08:59 <glass> the stylus is embedded in the back, slides out(on 5800)
Apr 12 17:09:05 <GeneralAntilles> Really, we just need a stupid product announcement so these people will STFU and go on to bitching about concrete things.
Apr 12 17:09:13 * lbt reaches into the air, grabs a passing pigeon and plucks a quill to use as a stylus...
Apr 12 17:09:48 <GeneralAntilles> I like how people keep proposing the context-sensitive UI.
Apr 12 17:09:57 <GeneralAntilles> What a train wreck.
Apr 12 17:10:33 <lcuk> i 100% agree there gan
Apr 12 17:10:52 <GeneralAntilles> That's when you know you can throw their opinion out with the rest of the garbage. ;)
Apr 12 17:10:54 <lcuk> i have nothing against a touch friendly ui - it works nicely with or without stylus
Apr 12 17:11:18 <LinuxCode> lcuk, you dont ride by bus often do you ?
Apr 12 17:11:22 <LinuxCode> ;-p
Apr 12 17:11:34 <LinuxCode> travel
Apr 12 17:11:37 <LinuxCode> -ride
Apr 12 17:11:45 <lcuk> LinuxCode, what does that matter - i did more notes on the plane than at any other time
Apr 12 17:11:55 <LinuxCode> plane = smooth
Apr 12 17:12:00 <LinuxCode> bus = bumpy
Apr 12 17:12:03 <GeneralAntilles> I wonder how these people manage to use their devices with a stylus while walking around.
Apr 12 17:12:09 <LinuxCode> GeneralAntilles, haha
Apr 12 17:12:16 <LinuxCode> either way, any of this is pointless
Apr 12 17:12:21 <LinuxCode> nobody here makes the decisions
Apr 12 17:12:23 <mavhc> who uses a device whilst walking?
Apr 12 17:12:34 <LinuxCode> mavhc, me ?
Apr 12 17:12:37 <GeneralAntilles> mavhc, me, but not with a stylus.
Apr 12 17:13:07 <mavhc> more hardware buttons is better, so I can pause/jump back 10 seconds etc my audio files without having to unlock, use the touchscreen, lock
Apr 12 17:13:40 <LinuxCode> all I know is, on the bus the stylus is useful
Apr 12 17:13:47 <glass> GeneralAntilles: 5800 is quite usable with fingers only
Apr 12 17:13:52 <LinuxCode> otherwise it doesnt really matter too much
Apr 12 17:13:56 <VDVsx> I use my phone when I'm riding my bike :)
Apr 12 17:14:00 <GeneralAntilles> glass, as is my N800.
Apr 12 17:14:00 <glass> i use it in the bus for reading stuff
Apr 12 17:14:21 <LinuxCode> I hope the follow on model will still have a keybaord
Apr 12 17:14:33 <LinuxCode> and I hope this time it will have the pipe symbol readily available
Apr 12 17:14:36 <glass> also the touchscreen reacts even if you have gloves on, which is handy if it's subzero outside..
Apr 12 17:14:37 <lcuk> media player == touch friendly == good whilst walking
Apr 12 17:14:52 <lcuk> taking notes == not something you do whilst walking, but usually you use a pen
Apr 12 17:14:56 <LinuxCode> that was my only beef with the n810
Apr 12 17:15:07 <LinuxCode> had to dump a pipe symbol into the ui
Apr 12 17:15:27 <mavhc> none of the media players are that touch friendly, they all use most of the screen for pointless cover art, and then put the pause button right next to the skip track button, and have no rewind 10 seconds button
Apr 12 17:16:12 <VDVsx> glass, if the 5800 had a proper kinetic scroll will be 100 % usable only with finger's, IMO
Apr 12 17:16:51 <LinuxCode> 5800 use mameo ?
Apr 12 17:17:00 <VDVsx> s60
Apr 12 17:17:11 <LinuxCode> errm so ehhh
Apr 12 17:17:14 <mavhc> I generally use canola, at least it has the buttons near the edge of the screen that comes first out of the case
Apr 12 17:17:14 <LinuxCode> nvm
Apr 12 17:17:42 <LinuxCode> I was under the impression we were talking about the next N8xx version
Apr 12 17:17:56 <GeneralAntilles> mavhc, powerlaunch for hardware control.
Apr 12 17:18:20 <LinuxCode> I just hope it will be out soon, I need a mobile replacement
Apr 12 17:18:25 <LinuxCode> mine doesnt cut it anymore
Apr 12 17:18:42 <mavhc> I did try to use my phone as a bluetooth keyboard to control it, but it didn't work as the keys were locked, any way around that?
Apr 12 17:19:25 <glass> VDVsx: the browser part sucks a bit, i hope they get it better
Apr 12 17:20:40 <GeneralAntilles> mavhc, powerlaunch lets you use the hardware keys for input while locked.
Apr 12 17:21:02 <VDVsx> glass, well at least is better than the n8x0 browser in terms of crashes and flash support, but I only use it a bit :)
Apr 12 17:21:03 <mavhc> I'll have a look, thanks
Apr 12 17:22:09 <VDVsx> glass, I only have complains about the finger scrolling in the main menus, but I don't use the phone as my primary phone :P
Apr 12 17:28:03 <LinuxCode> speaking of flash
Apr 12 17:28:16 <LinuxCode> why havent we seen an update for the browser or flash ?
Apr 12 17:28:30 <LinuxCode> bbc makes my thing slow down and then complain
Apr 12 17:28:38 <Stskeeps> cos noone cares about diablo anymore? :P
Apr 12 17:29:42 <LinuxCode> the official flah image is still diablo though isnt it ?
Apr 12 17:32:20 <GeneralAntilles> According to Mara, they all left Diablo land to work on Fremantle then "forgot the keys" so they can't get back in.
Apr 12 17:32:32 <GeneralAntilles> More Nokia retardation, business as usual.
Apr 12 17:32:52 <GeneralAntilles> Ranting gets you nowhere, being reasonable gets you nowhere, better to look to the future and move on.
Apr 12 17:32:57 <LinuxCode> GeneralAntilles, Fremantle is stable-ish ?
Apr 12 17:33:04 <GeneralAntilles> Not even close
Apr 12 17:33:11 <LinuxCode> i stick to diablo then
Apr 12 17:33:11 <GeneralAntilles> Still in alpha
Apr 12 17:33:13 <LinuxCode> ;-}
Apr 12 17:33:15 <LinuxCode> kk
Apr 12 17:33:27 * GeneralAntilles sighs.
Apr 12 17:33:50 <LinuxCode> why sigh ? hehe
Apr 12 17:33:59 <LinuxCode> you want me to try fremantle ?
Apr 12 17:34:02 <LinuxCode> ;-}
Apr 12 17:34:06 <GeneralAntilles> Because I'm tired of Nokia's nonsense.
Apr 12 17:34:09 <LinuxCode> ahh ok
Apr 12 17:34:21 <LinuxCode> ohh btw guys, any of you use gpesynd ?
Apr 12 17:35:00 <LinuxCode> weirdly I get an error with the calendar in msynctool
Apr 12 17:35:16 <GeneralAntilles> I'm wondering who I need to stab repeatedly to get any sort of useful communication on this https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3845
Apr 12 17:36:19 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: bribing whoever runs the update repositories
Apr 12 17:36:51 <LinuxCode> GeneralAntilles, sounds like a lot of disorganization
Apr 12 17:37:00 <LinuxCode> at least the thread reads that way
Apr 12 17:37:02 <LinuxCode> ;-|
Apr 12 17:37:43 * GeneralAntilles cooks up an idea for a new blog post series.
Apr 12 17:38:08 <Stskeeps> "Community and vendor interaction"? :P
Apr 12 17:38:28 <lcuk> GeneralAntilles, this change requires all people coordinate and make the changes together.  what happens if people just start pushing packages using the new categories? does it break?
Apr 12 17:38:34 <GeneralAntilles> "How Nokia Fucked the Community"
Apr 12 17:38:36 <LinuxCode> maybe its time to fork an off-spring of maemo
Apr 12 17:38:40 <GeneralAntilles> It'll have daily updates.
Apr 12 17:38:49 <LinuxCode> GeneralAntilles, haha
Apr 12 17:38:51 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, Nokia looks bad.
Apr 12 17:39:18 <lcuk> not really, advertise the new categories, get package maintainers themselves to use them and THEN nokia looks bad
Apr 12 17:39:26 <lcuk> but at the moment, changing them does nothing for nobody
Apr 12 17:39:35 <GeneralAntilles> I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt and not offload that ugly customer experience onto Nokia
Apr 12 17:39:43 <GeneralAntilles> But it looks like that wasn't the correct choice
Apr 12 17:39:47 <GeneralAntilles> Yes, really.
Apr 12 17:40:07 <GeneralAntilles> What does a customer think when they see a bunch of ugly unlocalized categories in the application manager?
Apr 12 17:40:08 <lcuk> what wasnt? a list of names that ALL package maintainers must follow
Apr 12 17:40:12 <GeneralAntilles> They sure aint blaming developers.
Apr 12 17:40:13 <lcuk> this is entire community change
Apr 12 17:40:33 <lcuk> they click all like everyone else
Apr 12 17:40:38 <GeneralAntilles> Not telling package developers to make the change before Nokia shipped the necessary updates.
Apr 12 17:40:44 <lcuk> i never know what category is what and never will do
Apr 12 17:41:08 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, experienced people, perhaps, but the vast majority of average tablet users, no.
Apr 12 17:41:29 <GeneralAntilles> Where's jeremiah when you need him?
Apr 12 17:41:49 <lcuk> so - lets suppose nokia changed them - do existing packages fall into them, OR, do things end up in the general catchall?
Apr 12 17:42:02 <lcuk> because the packages themselves dont match
Apr 12 17:42:25 <sampo> hello... is there some fix for slow fremanlte UI on xephyr with intel driver?
Apr 12 17:42:27 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, you really didn't pay much attention while this was decided, eh?
Apr 12 17:42:42 <GeneralAntilles> Non-valid categories get tossed into "Other"
Apr 12 17:42:56 <GeneralAntilles> Valid categories get pretty, localized strings.
Apr 12 17:43:03 <lcuk> so - will most current packages end up in all?
Apr 12 17:43:11 <lcuk> "other" sorry
Apr 12 17:43:37 <GeneralAntilles> Yes, because I was telling developers to stick with the current valid list until Nokia updated h-a-m.
Apr 12 17:43:49 <lcuk> facepalm
Apr 12 17:44:06 * qwerty12 hasn't been sticking with the current list
Apr 12 17:44:08 <lcuk> so bitching at nokia to change something which at the moment will make things worse is good?
Apr 12 17:44:25 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, oh, another silly lcuk discussion.
Apr 12 17:44:29 * GeneralAntilles is totally not in the mood.
Apr 12 17:44:48 <GeneralAntilles> It's a chicken and the egg problem.
Apr 12 17:44:52 <GeneralAntilles> Something has to change.
Apr 12 17:45:06 <GeneralAntilles> I'd like to avoid doubling the number of useless categories in the mean time, though.
Apr 12 17:45:07 <lcuk> no its not - put bugs against packages in the wrong places
Apr 12 17:45:12 <lcuk> for all packages
Apr 12 17:46:04 <GeneralAntilles> Then people slowly update it and the category list gets 10 times less useful in the mean time.
Apr 12 17:46:10 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, don't be silly.
Apr 12 17:46:12 <GeneralAntilles> Please.
Apr 12 17:46:25 <lcuk> no, then we have ammunition to push nokia to change their end
Apr 12 17:46:36 <lcuk> at the moment, it will make it worse
Apr 12 17:46:50 * GeneralAntilles sighs.
Apr 12 17:47:21 <GeneralAntilles> I didn't think we needed that ammunition.
Apr 12 17:47:23 <lcuk> sampo, ive not found a fix for it
Apr 12 17:47:27 <GeneralAntilles> Because I figured on Nokia being reasonable.
Apr 12 17:47:50 <GeneralAntilles> Unfortunately that's not the case, so now you're suggesting I do what I just said I was going to do 5 minutes ago? :P
Apr 12 17:47:51 <lcuk> i thought the packaging list changes were to be pushed to package builders themselves
Apr 12 17:48:03 <sampo> lcuk: so with intel driver it is basically impossible to test anything on emulator ?
Apr 12 17:48:18 <GeneralAntilles> It's a client-side change.
Apr 12 17:50:43 <GeneralAntilles> Somebody want to go poke _marcell_ to update r.m.o?
Apr 12 17:50:52 <lcuk> sampo, ymmv, ive seen it running at fullspeed on different hardware
Apr 12 17:53:14 <sampo> i have nvidia on my desktop but my laptop has intel gma4500
Apr 12 17:53:28 <lcuk> GeneralAntilles, what if there was a way to automatically fixup the packages in extras to account for the changes.  some sort of intermediate list to expidite a transition?  essentially a "packagename,category" list which would be looked up in place of the category in the package itself
Apr 12 17:54:04 <GeneralAntilles> Then we'd have to replace the maintainer lines on all those packages with autobuilder@maemo.org
Apr 12 17:54:13 <lcuk> i do want your changes to go through, but i cannot see it being a benefit at the start
Apr 12 17:54:18 <GeneralAntilles> It's generally considered bad form to play with other people's packages.
Apr 12 17:54:26 <lcuk> how about we kept this outside the packages themselves
Apr 12 17:54:29 <lcuk> just a small db
Apr 12 17:54:30 <GeneralAntilles> It'll be an immediate benefit
Apr 12 17:54:40 <GeneralAntilles> Because the category list wont like like hell.
Apr 12 17:54:53 <lcuk> sure it will get out of sync quickly, but it will catch all the stale packages
Apr 12 17:54:58 <GeneralAntilles> How can it be outside the package?
Apr 12 17:55:05 <GeneralAntilles> Then you're back to a h-a-m hack.
Apr 12 17:55:40 <lcuk> you need to hack h-a-m anyway dont you
Apr 12 17:56:00 <GeneralAntilles> That's the point though
Apr 12 17:56:08 <GeneralAntilles> There's no hacking h-a-m unless Nokia ships the hacks.
Apr 12 17:56:16 <GeneralAntilles> So whatever we do, we're stuck waiting for Nokia.
Apr 12 17:56:43 <lcuk> but the change suggested so far does no good short term
Apr 12 17:56:50 <GeneralAntilles> Any transitional stuff is pointless and likely to be more harmful in the longterm than it is beneficial in the short.
Apr 12 17:56:57 <GeneralAntilles> Hardly
Apr 12 17:57:14 <GeneralAntilles> The h-a-m patches immediately cleans up the category list.
Apr 12 17:57:25 <GeneralAntilles> and encourages maintainers to get their packages out of Other.
Apr 12 17:57:56 <Stskeeps> and we can't ship an overriding h-a-m through extras can we?
Apr 12 17:57:59 <lcuk> agreed on motivation
Apr 12 17:58:20 <lcuk> o_O thats an idea lol
Apr 12 17:58:24 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, not unless you want  to ruin updates for 95% of tablet users out there.
Apr 12 17:58:27 <GeneralAntilles> No, it's not.
Apr 12 17:58:40 <GeneralAntilles> We can't ship updates to bundled stuff without breaking the whole bundle.
Apr 12 18:00:06 <Stskeeps> true
Apr 12 18:00:18 <lcuk> we could rename it p-o-r-k :D
Apr 12 18:00:42 <lcuk> technically, theres nothing stopping an alternative package manager gaining traction
Apr 12 18:00:56 <lcuk> just like in other distros a new one emerges which solves the problems of the existing one
Apr 12 18:01:47 <GeneralAntilles> Except that that would be evil
Apr 12 18:01:50 <GeneralAntilles> and user-hostile
Apr 12 18:01:54 <lcuk> of course it wouldnt
Apr 12 18:03:13 <GeneralAntilles> You're not going to get all users to switch managers
Apr 12 18:03:13 <GeneralAntilles> so you're back to square one again with the categories.
Apr 12 18:03:14 * GeneralAntilles mutters about Tear not being in Extras.
Apr 12 18:09:32 <GeneralAntilles> Not so impressed with the current release after all the hype.
Apr 12 18:10:01 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: you're aware that the categories are in fact, in the fremantle HAM though?
Apr 12 18:10:13 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, yes, which is almost worse.
Apr 12 18:10:26 <GeneralAntilles> Since maintainers now have to ship two separate sets if they want localized categories in both.
Apr 12 18:10:33 <Stskeeps> ah
Apr 12 18:11:18 <GeneralAntilles> Tear lies about about:blank
Apr 12 18:12:10 <lcuk> what do the categories on maemo.org do in different countries?
Apr 12 18:12:18 <lcuk> http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/
Apr 12 18:12:26 <lcuk> are they shown in same way for everyone?
Apr 12 18:12:36 <GeneralAntilles> maemo.org is not localized.
Apr 12 18:12:54 <lcuk> but people have categorised their apps - seperate from the package
Apr 12 18:13:08 <GeneralAntilles> So?
Apr 12 18:13:08 <lcuk> and somewhere on the maemo.org server is a list of packagename and category?
Apr 12 18:13:25 <GeneralAntilles> No.
Apr 12 18:13:29 <lcuk> yes
Apr 12 18:13:30 <GeneralAntilles> You'd have to patch apt.
Apr 12 18:13:33 <lcuk> its in the database
Apr 12 18:13:45 <GeneralAntilles> This proposal isn't any different from the one you made 20 minutes ago.
Apr 12 18:13:51 <lcuk> but i wouldnt have to patch 9000 individual packages
Apr 12 18:14:08 <GeneralAntilles> You don't have to patch other people's packages.
Apr 12 18:14:11 <lcuk> no, im following through on that proposal and thinking about the issues ;)
Apr 12 18:14:31 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, this has been thought about and discussed quite a lot.
Apr 12 18:14:43 <lcuk> and so far i can see a way to automatically categorize all listed packages in maemo in the correct way
Apr 12 18:14:44 <lcuk> can you?
Apr 12 18:14:47 <GeneralAntilles> I know you weren't there for it, but we've already been through all of these ideas. :)
Apr 12 18:16:00 <qwerty12_N800> the real problem is nokia sitting on their asses wrt diablo
Apr 12 18:16:44 <qwerty12_N800> suggestions are nice, but if they aren't gonna get up, what can we do?
Apr 12 18:17:06 <lcuk> make sure mer is right :)
Apr 12 18:17:46 <lcuk> mer is about reconstructing maemo in the way the community expects.
Apr 12 18:20:59 <zakkm> wooh :)
Apr 12 18:21:02 <RST38h> nothing we can do
Apr 12 18:21:29 <RST38h> not until becomes a fully functional replacement
Apr 12 18:23:12 * zakkm thinks most users still runs the default stuff + some stuff in extras
Apr 12 18:23:31 <lcuk> i wouldv thought nokia wouldnt be so dumb as to ignore improvments made in mer - if they are compatible with diablo
Apr 12 18:23:36 <RST38h> s//mer
Apr 12 18:23:39 <zakkm> when i bought my nokia n800, the guy didnt reflash it, and he still had OS2007
Apr 12 18:23:45 <lcuk> so if its shown to work there ..
Apr 12 18:23:54 <RST38h> lcuk: you misunderstand
Apr 12 18:23:55 <zakkm> even though diablo was at like 36-_
Apr 12 18:24:13 <RST38h> lcuk: Nokia does not care about improvements to software by third parties
Apr 12 18:24:24 <ShadowJK_> I bought my N800 second hand a few weeks ago, the guy had said it was flashed to latest OS. I found it had chinook :)
Apr 12 18:24:35 <RST38h> lcuk: In fact, it does not even care about its own software, as long as the hardware running it no longer sells
Apr 12 18:25:10 <RST38h> lcuk: The above statements are pretty much axioms from which you can deduce a lots of Nokia behavior
Apr 12 18:25:28 <lcuk> it was (principally) nokia engineers who put together the HE of the upgrades
Apr 12 18:25:39 <RST38h> engineers != nokia
Apr 12 18:26:01 <RST38h> A few guys may help out the users a bit, if it is ot too much time and their manager agrees
Apr 12 18:26:07 <lcuk> show those same people tangible benefits which work on this device and the same should occur
Apr 12 18:26:11 <zakkm> ShadowJK_: curious, how much did you pay?
Apr 12 18:26:43 <lcuk> uptil now the mod that sparked this debate would be mostly futile
Apr 12 18:27:12 <ShadowJK_> zakkm, iirc 90€ (shipping included)
Apr 12 18:27:18 <RST38h> lcuk: They are all working on Fremantle according to management (qgil)
Apr 12 18:27:54 <lcuk> yes, and so they should - thats their job
Apr 12 18:27:56 <zakkm> ShadowJK_: heh i paid the exact same, but the guy came to where i work
Apr 12 18:28:04 <RST38h> exactly
Apr 12 18:28:23 <lcuk> right now theres no benefit to diving back into code
Apr 12 18:28:43 <qwerty12_N800> ello johnx
Apr 12 18:28:53 <mavhc> GeneralAntilles: how do I get it out of pocket mode?
Apr 12 18:29:05 <Stskeeps> 'lo johnx
Apr 12 18:29:09 <GeneralAntilles> mavhc, don't remember.
Apr 12 18:29:17 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800 might be able to help, though.
Apr 12 18:29:20 <johnx> allo all
Apr 12 18:29:35 <johnx> got my zaurus working again :D
Apr 12 18:29:54 <Stskeeps> woo :)
Apr 12 18:30:03 <johnx> and have a reasonable x server for it
Apr 12 18:30:04 <lcuk> heh hello johnx, took almost a month to get it working!
Apr 12 18:30:26 <johnx> should probably do some package cleanup then push it :)
Apr 12 18:30:42 <johnx> lcuk: heh. there were some distractions :P
Apr 12 18:30:49 <GeneralAntilles> johnx, so that's what's been sapping up all of your time, eh? ;)
Apr 12 18:30:51 <lcuk> as always, hope all is well
Apr 12 18:31:17 <qwerty12_N800> mahvc, it got messed up somewhere along the versions... i keep mashing buttons until the power menu comes up, press home & hit reload powerlaunch. it's retarded, i know...
Apr 12 18:31:25 <johnx> GeneralAntilles: yeah, the moving was really no big thing (<- horrible lies)
Apr 12 18:31:33 <Stskeeps> johnx: saw the danish weekend stuff btw?
Apr 12 18:31:52 <johnx> Stskeeps: I did. that's at the end of tthis month?
Apr 12 18:31:57 <Stskeeps> johnx: may
Apr 12 18:32:19 <johnx> aaaah, then I'll call it a firm maybe :)
Apr 12 18:32:31 <mavhc> thanks qwerty12_N800, is there a list of what the default settings are?
Apr 12 18:33:33 <qwerty12_N800> it's a little sparse on docs, i'd just recommend to look at the raw config files in /etc/powerlaunch
Apr 12 18:34:34 <johnx> lcuk: yup. going pretty well. i can take a breath again before jumping back into the fray.
Apr 12 18:36:31 <lcuk> johnx :) libliqbase is on a git server now
Apr 12 18:36:54 <lcuk> let me know if you wanna have a play
Apr 12 18:38:13 <johnx> I think I'm good with what I've bitten off so far o_o;
Apr 12 18:38:57 <Stskeeps> johnx: *nod* basically if you want to see if you can get sponsorship, just follow instructions in http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=278371&postcount=7 - probably better to do sooner than later according to the nokians :P
Apr 12 18:39:05 <lcuk> oh i know that feeling
Apr 12 18:40:25 * GeneralAntilles sips and shudders.
Apr 12 18:40:35 <GeneralAntilles> Apparently these people don't know the meaning of too much soy.
Apr 12 18:45:27 <Stskeeps> johnx: #mer , btw
Apr 12 18:46:30 <johnx> Stskeeps: ah, right. on my zaurus here :)