**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 20 03:00:07 2009
Nov 20 03:54:03 <Guest83958> I get this error everytime I try apt-get update in ARMEL target in scratchbox. /scratchbox/tools/bin/misc_runner: SBOX_CPUTRANSPARENCY_METHOD not set
Nov 20 04:08:07 <Guest83958> How do I solve the  SBOX_CPUTRANSPARENCY_METHOD not set problem? I keep getting that error
Nov 20 05:53:07 * RST38h laughs at Ovi thread
Nov 20 05:53:34 <RST38h> People discussing creation of a corporate entity that would let them submit content to Ovi
Nov 20 05:53:56 <RST38h> Nobody is even considering the most logical solution
Nov 20 05:54:51 <derf> We could call this corporate entity "Nokia".
Nov 20 05:54:57 <derf> If it's not already taken.
Nov 20 05:58:06 <RST38h> Nokla, yes
Nov 20 05:58:24 <RST38h> Not yet taken although certain Chinese will be offended
Nov 20 06:21:06 <dmj726> http://www.forum.nokia.com/document/Get_started_with_Maemo_5/  in slide 4 the announcer pronounces GNOME like genome
Nov 20 06:21:35 <RST38h> And?
Nov 20 06:22:00 <dmj726> first time I've heard it pronounced that way...
Nov 20 06:22:32 <dmj726> as in ge as in gene, rather than G as in GNU
Nov 20 06:22:47 <dmj726> or just silent
Nov 20 06:23:16 <RST38h> Maybe nobody told him how it is supposed to sound? =)
Nov 20 06:23:25 <dmj726> normally I don't care that much about silent vs hard g but the soft g could be confusing
Nov 20 06:23:31 <dmj726> her actually
Nov 20 06:23:52 <RST38h> Ahhha, Brin started wearing black turtlenecks Jobs-style
Nov 20 06:24:04 <dmj726> I'm sure that it was a simple mistake of not having been told the pronunciation
Nov 20 06:24:06 <RST38h> And he is using Droid
Nov 20 06:24:23 <RST38h> Somebody send Brin an N900 =)
Nov 20 06:25:04 <luke-jr> dmj726: at least he didn't try to make it silent.
Nov 20 06:25:12 <luke-jr> pretty sure it's explicitly NOT supposed to be silent
Nov 20 06:25:56 <dmj726> yeah, though a silent g would actually be what most native linux users would expect on seeing that word the first time.
Nov 20 06:26:12 <dmj726> /s/linux users/English speakers
Nov 20 06:26:41 <RST38h> dmj726: only if your native language is English
Nov 20 06:26:56 <RST38h> Because when I see "g" I say "g" :)
Nov 20 06:27:00 <pwnguin> guh-nome sounds stupid anyways
Nov 20 06:27:19 <pwnguin> RST38h: avoid french then
Nov 20 06:27:32 * RST38h managed to follow this advice so far
Nov 20 06:27:41 <dmj726> that's normally true for native speakers but there is an english word gnome that's pronounced nome
Nov 20 06:28:01 <RST38h> "nom", not "nome", right? ;)
Nov 20 06:28:05 <dmj726> yeah
Nov 20 06:28:10 <pwnguin> nom nom
Nov 20 06:28:14 <dmj726> long o
Nov 20 06:28:23 <dmj726> as in Rome
Nov 20 06:28:27 <RST38h> See what I mean? Absolutely no correspondence between spelling and pronounciation :)
Nov 20 06:28:35 <dmj726> yeah
Nov 20 06:28:39 <pwnguin> throw in an umlaut
Nov 20 06:28:40 <luke-jr> XD
Nov 20 06:29:20 <dmj726> most English words do follow the rules, but there are tons of exceptions
Nov 20 06:29:20 <RST38h> Every fucking word is pretty much a hieroglyph
Nov 20 06:29:51 <RST38h> dmj726: AmigaOS had that speak: device that read text aloud
Nov 20 06:30:11 <RST38h> dmj726: It used a database of rules. Still read with latino accent though =)
Nov 20 06:30:25 <pwnguin> we have festival
Nov 20 06:30:28 <dmj726> that's because it's your female friend
Nov 20 06:31:38 <dmj726> ...Amiga
Nov 20 06:40:42 <luke-jr> Festival's default voice kinda sucks
Nov 20 06:41:06 <ShadowJK> would native english speaker hear difference between gnom and genom
Nov 20 06:41:33 <dmj726> gnom being with a hard g?
Nov 20 06:42:34 <dmj726> Native English speakers can easily hear both hard and soft Gs.
Nov 20 06:43:43 <dmj726> the word gnome, however, generally has a silent g unless it refers to the free software project instead of little dwarfs
Nov 20 06:48:15 <ShadowJK> Well whether gnom with hard g would be heard as genom
Nov 20 06:48:51 <RST38h> no
Nov 20 06:48:52 <dmj726> nope, very different than genom, which has the soft g
Nov 20 06:57:17 <microlith> Genom?
Nov 20 06:57:24 * microlith is assaulted by boomers
Nov 20 07:01:49 * CoreFusion- is awake, again
Nov 20 07:03:54 * CoreFusion- is starting his day with Battle without honor or humanity
Nov 20 07:04:22 * microlith tries to recall what that's from
Nov 20 07:04:46 <CoreFusion-> it's the kill bill theme :P
Nov 20 07:04:51 <microlith> ok
Nov 20 07:05:08 <CoreFusion-> I find it refreshing
Nov 20 07:05:11 <microlith> movie soundtracks arne't a large part of my collection
Nov 20 07:05:15 <microlith> aren't*
Nov 20 07:05:23 <CoreFusion-> http://open.spotify.com/track/6Q32Vkucx2qeuVyBd3NiFZ
Nov 20 07:06:25 <CoreFusion-> or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2_kpSYxXI
Nov 20 07:07:45 <microlith> heh, ty
Nov 20 07:08:54 * Khertan is listening Gardian of Asguard
Nov 20 07:14:54 <dmj726> esbox garage site is down
Nov 20 07:18:00 <CoreFusion-> Khertan: You mean Guardians of Asgaard?
Nov 20 07:18:14 <Khertan> yes ... :)
Nov 20 07:18:29 <Khertan> just writing it from memory
Nov 20 07:18:34 <CoreFusion-> Not for me :/
Nov 20 07:42:21 <dmj726> I've decided to try esbox, but am not having luck finding the documentation for it
Nov 20 07:52:54 <dmj726> nevermind...found via google cache
Nov 20 07:56:18 <timeless_mbp> :(
Nov 20 07:56:27 <timeless_mbp> my n900 killed itself while i was trying to read mail
Nov 20 07:56:57 <dmj726> :(
Nov 20 07:56:58 <Stskeeps> :(
Nov 20 07:57:02 <Stskeeps> browser or modest? :P
Nov 20 07:57:12 <dmj726> define kill
Nov 20 07:57:50 <auenf> shotgun, noose or locked itself in the car with a hose from the exhaust into the cabin?
Nov 20 08:01:06 <dmj726> ...what email messages were you subjecting it too?!? =-O
Nov 20 08:02:08 <Stskeeps> maemo bugtracker would definately make a n900 off itself
Nov 20 08:05:06 <Jaffa> Morning, all
Nov 20 08:05:12 <Stskeeps> morning jaffa
Nov 20 08:05:22 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: Did you have any thoughts on MWN idea?
Nov 20 08:08:26 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: reddit for tmo posts and events? :P
Nov 20 08:14:57 <Khertan> someone know a backup software that work on ubuntu ...
Nov 20 08:15:09 <Khertan> making backup on ftp
Nov 20 08:15:35 <Khertan> i ve try Simple Backup ... but is so simple that backup are unusable
Nov 20 08:16:04 <Myrtti> rsync over ftp
Nov 20 08:17:21 <bigbrovar> Khertan: Lucky backup has both a qt and a gtk frontend http://luckybackup.sourceforge.net/download.html
Nov 20 08:18:00 <bigbrovar> Khertan:  and it works really well, although it doesnt support backup over the network ( at least the lasttime i checked )
Nov 20 08:18:02 <Khertan> Myrtti: ... hum ... does rsync really support ftp ...  ?
Nov 20 08:19:04 <bigbrovar> Khertan: you can always get round the problem by mounted using nfs to mount ur remote back location
Nov 20 08:19:06 <Khertan> luckybackup <<< doesn't support ftp
Nov 20 08:20:13 <Myrtti> Khertan: I'd be surprised if it doesn't
Nov 20 08:20:38 <Dieterbe> hi guys. i feel pretty silly, but i can't figure out how to remove a song from the current playlist in the n900 (preproduction) media player (yeah, haven't flashed yet..)
Nov 20 08:21:19 <Myrtti> though I'd rather chop my left hand off than use ftp if ssh is available
Nov 20 08:22:04 <Khertan> Myrtti: ssh isn't :)
Nov 20 08:22:10 <dmj726> The Maemo 5 getting started development tutorial is pretty well done (pronunciation aside)
Nov 20 08:22:14 <Myrtti> and if you don't have ssh available, I'd chage host
Nov 20 08:22:16 <Khertan> Myrtti: i m apt-get it ... so i ll try
Nov 20 08:22:28 <Khertan> Myrtti: it s a special device
Nov 20 08:22:30 <Myrtti> usage of ftp for backups is ...
Nov 20 08:22:31 <dmj726> I could see it being a very good intro for new devs
Nov 20 08:22:33 <Myrtti> *cough*
Nov 20 08:23:59 <Khertan> luckybackup have an horrible interface
Nov 20 08:24:00 <Khertan> ouch
Nov 20 08:26:24 <bigbrovar> Khertan: am sure if you drop some $ in donation. It would help the project .. better still you can also make a mockup, or write you suggestions on what to the developers :)
Nov 20 08:26:52 <Khertan> bigbrovar: or write my own ... and make a port for maemo too
Nov 20 08:27:25 <rrr__> is there any ftp client on maemo yet?
Nov 20 08:27:46 <bigbrovar> Khertan: yeah that too, although its often better to support an existing project than to start yet another one.. we haev too many orphaned project already
Nov 20 08:28:07 <Stskeeps> rrr__: gftp? :P
Nov 20 08:29:21 <rrr__> oh hey thanks i must be blind :p
Nov 20 08:29:31 <Khertan> bigbrovar: maybe there is a reason for this orphaned ... because everybody think that is solution is better ... and backup on ftp sucks ... so do not implement it
Nov 20 08:31:08 <bigbrovar> Khertan: is insecure why not scp .. heck.. buy a dropbox account and be done with it.. I use dropbox to back up my essential config files
Nov 20 08:33:26 <Khertan> bigbrovar: it s insecure ... right ... this is why it s on a local network "machine"
Nov 20 08:33:49 <Khertan> bigbrovar: it s a small nas ... with four hard drive
Nov 20 08:33:59 <Khertan> but doesn't support rsync over ftp
Nov 20 08:34:04 <Khertan> but doesn't support rsync over ssh
Nov 20 08:34:08 * RST38h moos at Khertan and Sts
Nov 20 08:34:15 <Khertan> hi RST38h
Nov 20 08:35:35 <bigbrovar> Khertan: why not mount the remote network drive then use rsync from, there. or you could use backupPC if that is not an over kill
Nov 20 08:36:23 <Khertan> bigbrovar: because i cannot mount it
Nov 20 08:36:43 <bigbrovar> Khertan:  ahh
Nov 20 08:36:48 <Khertan> oh ... fuck ... i can mount it in ftp
Nov 20 08:36:57 <Khertan> lol i ve forgotten that exists
Nov 20 08:37:02 <bigbrovar> Khertan: i was thinking same
Nov 20 08:37:05 <Khertan> i always use mount ssh
Nov 20 08:37:19 <Khertan> i ve forgotten this feature
Nov 20 08:37:22 <Khertan> thx
Nov 20 08:37:39 <bigbrovar> Khertan: i think dolphin has that feature inbuilt
Nov 20 08:37:44 <asdm> I have a N770 I enabled usb host mode and installed Carman app and i plugged in the USB OBD reader to the N770 its registers at address5 but i think  the porgram only reads bluetooth devices
Nov 20 08:37:44 <asdm> is there a way i can make the usb look like a bluetooth device to n770
Nov 20 08:38:16 <bigbrovar> Khertan: btw are u lucky enough to have a n900 in your possession ?
Nov 20 08:39:45 <Khertan> bigbrovar: yep
Nov 20 08:40:24 <hrw> morning
Nov 20 08:41:55 <bigbrovar> Khertan: first i hate you :p .. second I have been asking this question and no one has been able to answer. How well is the proxy support of the N900. the n810 had very good proxy support when it comes to preinstalled applications ..( with the exception of the IM Chat app which never worked behind a network proxy)
Nov 20 08:42:50 <adeus> considering that all nokia devs are inside a proxy, I'd guess the support is good
Nov 20 08:42:53 <bigbrovar> Khertan: and no 3rd party app worked when you are behind a network proxy. there seem unable to use the system wide proxy settings. and very few had their own inbuilt proxy settings..
Nov 20 08:44:03 <bigbrovar> adeus: for pre-installed apps yes.. (except the chat applications on the N810 which seems to be an upstream problem, because telepathy as at then did suport http proxy )
Nov 20 08:44:09 <Khertan> and no 3rd party app worked when you are behind a network proxy. <<< it s depends if the dev is a good one ... or made crap code
Nov 20 08:44:30 <Khertan> bigbrovar: proxy seems to be well supported
Nov 20 08:44:37 <Khertan> as i use one ...
Nov 20 08:44:44 <ShadowJK> it doesn't change for 3rd party apps
Nov 20 08:45:05 <Khertan> ShadowJK: it does ... when the dev use direct socket call :)
Nov 20 08:45:46 <ShadowJK> I mean, there's not much you can do to make third party apps support it, besides modifying the app
Nov 20 08:45:48 <jsmanrique> hello
Nov 20 08:45:49 <bigbrovar> Khertan: even with 3rd party applicaitons like mauku, canola, mastory (former wordpy) and gpodder ( all this applications and more didnt work on the n810 )
Nov 20 08:46:07 <jsmanrique> anyone has an answer from DDP about what is happenning?
Nov 20 08:47:03 <Khertan> bigbrovar: it s was working with my n810
Nov 20 08:47:17 <Khertan> not sure for canola
Nov 20 08:47:40 <Khertan> works with my proxy for mauku mastory
Nov 20 08:47:49 <bigbrovar> Khertan: even behind a network proxy? cus afaik i even filed a bug for mauku, and wordpy to support proxy
Nov 20 08:47:49 <Khertan> i ven't try with gpodder
Nov 20 08:48:17 <bigbrovar> Khertan: and canola also doesnt...
Nov 20 08:48:22 <Khertan> Khertan: even behind a network proxy? <<< yep ... it use the one in the network config settings
Nov 20 08:48:33 <Khertan> bigbrovar: for canola i don't know ... i didn't use it
Nov 20 08:49:00 <bigbrovar> Khertan: only pidgin, skype, and xchat did from the apps i tried and there had inbuilt proxy support
Nov 20 08:49:43 <Khertan> strange
Nov 20 08:50:06 <bigbrovar> the most painful is maemo weather which never worked for me.. and i knew it was the proxy issue
Nov 20 08:50:22 <Khertan> omweather you mean ?
Nov 20 08:50:28 <lardman|home> morning
Nov 20 08:50:45 <bigbrovar> Khertan: both gnome and kde ( and even symbian) third party apps works fine using the systemwide proxy settings
Nov 20 08:52:12 <Jaffa> bigbrovar: There's a bug in Maemo where it doesn't expose http_proxy correctly to apps, AFAIK
Nov 20 08:52:22 <bigbrovar> here is a forum post i made about the issue http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32814
Nov 20 08:53:00 <bigbrovar> Jaffa: thanks .. that is a major bug.. any idea if its fixed in maemo5?
Nov 20 08:53:56 <Jaffa> bigbrovar: Dunno, not tested. Probably should, as it'll impact Python's webbrowser module, which is used by python-facebook, which is used by Hermes.
Nov 20 08:54:38 <bigbrovar> Jaffa: do you have a link to the bug report?
Nov 20 08:56:19 <Jaffa> bigbrovar: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3712 contains some stuff
Nov 20 08:56:21 <povbot> Bug 3712: RSS reader uses proxy settings even when proxy disabled
Nov 20 08:57:11 <hrw> maemo5 in 1024x600 looks mixed
Nov 20 08:57:26 <hrw> some apps looks ok, some bad, some (like Clock) show bugs
Nov 20 08:58:31 * timeless_mbp frowns
Nov 20 08:59:05 <hrw> Calendar crashes like hell with my Joe Average contact...
Nov 20 08:59:12 <hrw> 'Birthday calendar does not exist !!' and then crash
Nov 20 08:59:14 <hrw> heh.
Nov 20 08:59:20 <dmj726> hrw: trying to run maemo5 on a netbook?
Nov 20 08:59:31 <hrw> dmj726: no, maemo5 sdk still
Nov 20 08:59:52 <bigbrovar> Jaffa: thanks
Nov 20 09:00:41 <timeless_mbp> hrw: file a bug?
Nov 20 09:00:53 <timeless_mbp> preferably identify the crash id for it...
Nov 20 09:00:57 <timeless_mbp> or do you not have crash-reporter?
Nov 20 09:01:49 <hrw> timeless_mbp: device first, then bugs
Nov 20 09:02:03 <timeless_mbp> oh bah
Nov 20 09:02:32 <hrw> timeless_mbp: I want to be sure that bugs occur also on device
Nov 20 09:02:34 <jaem> timeless_mbp, hi
Nov 20 09:02:39 <timeless_mbp> hello
Nov 20 09:02:44 * timeless_mbp needs to fix ok/cancel
Nov 20 09:02:46 <jaem> sigh...
Nov 20 09:02:54 * jaem is registering on the government student loan website
Nov 20 09:02:58 <jaem> their forms are stupid
Nov 20 09:03:23 <jaem> the ToS agreement form tells you to enter your password and click the "I agree" button
Nov 20 09:03:45 <jaem> however, if you don't agree, you have to select the "I disagree" radiobutton... and then click "I agree" to submit
Nov 20 09:03:46 <jaem> >)<
Nov 20 09:04:06 <dmj726> You agree to disagree?
Nov 20 09:04:12 <jaem> maybe
Nov 20 09:04:12 <dmj726> :P
Nov 20 09:04:34 <timeless_mbp> absolutely!
Nov 20 09:04:45 <jaem> also, on the "edit your personal information" form, the "best time to call" field defaults to 12am, and doesn't force you to change it before submitting
Nov 20 09:05:57 <hrw> timeless_mbp: which crash-reporter?
Nov 20 09:06:07 <timeless_mbp> oh nokia-maemo has a crash reporter
Nov 20 09:06:12 <timeless_mbp> which we probably don't ship :)
Nov 20 09:06:16 <timeless_mbp> it was called nitro in diablo
Nov 20 09:06:24 <timeless_mbp> now it's "crash-reporter"
Nov 20 09:06:42 <hrw> timeless_mbp: and still nokia internal only?
Nov 20 09:06:49 <timeless_mbp> dunno
Nov 20 09:06:57 <timeless_mbp> ask eero
Nov 20 09:07:02 <hrw> who?
Nov 20 09:07:04 <timeless_mbp> or search to see if it's in extra-*
Nov 20 09:07:26 <hrw> itis
Nov 20 09:07:50 <hrw> and not installable it is
Nov 20 09:07:56 <timeless_mbp> not installable?
Nov 20 09:08:10 <jaem> hrw, fix your packages, you must... mrrmmm
Nov 20 09:08:15 <jaem> ;)
Nov 20 09:08:27 <timeless_mbp> bah, i should ask sp3000 for help
Nov 20 09:08:40 <hrw> ok, found why
Nov 20 09:08:49 <hrw> some packages failed to install in sbox
Nov 20 09:09:03 <hrw> ~curse sbox for crappy 'I should be root' handling
Nov 20 09:09:04 <infobot> May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, sbox for crappy 'I should be root' handling !
Nov 20 09:13:20 <hrw> ok, removed few packages and system is going on
Nov 20 09:13:59 <suihkulokki> hrw: you mean you didn't use fakeroot and changing uid/gid of files didn't work?
Nov 20 09:15:13 <hrw> suihkulokki: I refuse to read sbox manuals. as it allows me to use apt-get then I use it
Nov 20 09:15:26 <suihkulokki> you can't "apt-get install" as non-root a pc either
Nov 20 09:15:27 <jaem> what exactly does fakeroot do, anyhow?
Nov 20 09:15:45 <hrw> suihkulokki: on pc I cannot. in sbox I can
Nov 20 09:16:03 <timeless_mbp> http://linux.die.net/man/1/fakeroot
Nov 20 09:16:13 <hrw> suihkulokki: ofcourse some postinstall scripts complain about it but for me it is a bug in a way which sbox works
Nov 20 09:16:18 <jaem> timeless_mbp, heh... yeah
Nov 20 09:16:22 <jaem> that would work - sorry
Nov 20 09:16:36 <suihkulokki> hrw: because inside sbox dirs in /usr /var etc are user writable
Nov 20 09:17:12 <suihkulokki> ofcourse apt in sbox could be patched to exit if not under fakeroot...
Nov 20 09:18:03 <hrw> suihkulokki: as I do not plan to use maemo5sdk vbox image for development I am fine with totally broken system in it due to 'sbox is not root but tries to behave like one' thing
Nov 20 09:18:04 * suihkulokki doesnt like sbox but thinks hrw is being a epic whiner atm.
Nov 20 09:18:18 <hrw> suihkulokki: I am atm
Nov 20 09:18:53 <jaem> yay, whining
Nov 20 09:20:00 <RST38h> sb2! sb2!
Nov 20 09:20:25 <alterego> Or you could just alias 'apt-get' to 'fakeroot apt-get' :P
Nov 20 09:20:39 <hrw> http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/tmp/pic10.jpg is lovely
Nov 20 09:21:00 <suihkulokki> alias "sudo" as "fakeroot" and use it like you'd on a pc =)
Nov 20 09:21:01 <timeless_mbp> alterego: so that apt-get --download-only would do something stupid
Nov 20 09:21:21 <alterego> Heh
Nov 20 09:21:25 <alterego> Okay,
Nov 20 09:21:37 <timeless_mbp> hrw: nice
Nov 20 09:21:42 <alterego> Could write a simple wrapper script
Nov 20 09:21:56 <lardman|home> curiously I don't need to use fakeroot for anything other than building
Nov 20 09:22:22 <hrw> lardman|home: fakeroot for building???
Nov 20 09:23:52 <lardman|home> yeah you know dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot
Nov 20 09:24:09 <Corsac> hhm, n900 seems to be available on nokia.fr too
Nov 20 09:24:12 <hrw> ah.. building+packaging
Nov 20 09:24:14 <Corsac> but 650€ is really to expensive
Nov 20 09:24:23 <hrw> lardman|home: "debuild" is more comfortable
Nov 20 09:24:27 <lardman|home> hrw: yeah sorry all combined
Nov 20 09:25:36 <aquatix> Corsac: it's available for 530 EUR here in the netherlands
Nov 20 09:25:41 <aquatix> well, `available'
Nov 20 09:25:51 <hrw> aquatix: 'listed in shop'
Nov 20 09:25:57 <aquatix> indeed
Nov 20 09:26:23 <hrw> 2499 PLN in Poland
Nov 20 09:26:30 <lardman|home> hmm, my diablo app is non-hildonised (inc the window) I wonder what's gone wrong...?
Nov 20 09:26:41 <hrw> which means ~604€
Nov 20 09:27:06 <Corsac> aquatix: in nokia website or in physical stores?
Nov 20 09:27:18 <aquatix> Corsac: estores
Nov 20 09:27:34 <aquatix> http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/244767/nokia-n900-zwart.html (dutch pricewatch site)
Nov 20 09:27:41 * konttori loves transmission on n900 (sorry for totally unnecessary comment, just had to shout out loud)
Nov 20 09:27:58 <lardman|home> does Diablo not have a hildon-style gtk_init()?
Nov 20 09:28:05 <RST38h> ah you pirate =)
Nov 20 09:28:15 <timeless_mbp> ok
Nov 20 09:28:22 <timeless_mbp> http://mxr.maemo.org/
Nov 20 09:28:26 <timeless_mbp> now has two versions of fremantle
Nov 20 09:28:35 <timeless_mbp> note that fremantle-41 is slightly broken, and i'm not sure i'll try to fix it
Nov 20 09:28:41 <timeless_mbp> fremantle-42 is more interesting anyway
Nov 20 09:29:30 <RST38h> GIMP to be removed from Ubuntu 10.04
Nov 20 09:29:53 <timeless_mbp> RST38h: it isn't an end user tool
Nov 20 09:29:58 <alterego> :(
Nov 20 09:30:00 <hrw> hm. N900 comes with WH-205 headphones. they have accept call button. does it work with n900?
Nov 20 09:30:14 <lardman|home> I didn't get any :(
Nov 20 09:30:27 <alterego> I want to know if my N95/96 media headphones will work with the N900, unlikely I guess.
Nov 20 09:30:30 <lardman|home> are they the same as came with N8x0?
Nov 20 09:30:33 <jaem> RST38h, oh really?
Nov 20 09:30:35 <jaem> link?
Nov 20 09:30:36 <hrw> lardman|home: tried to connect HS-47 from n8x0?
Nov 20 09:30:39 <lardman|home> nah, N95 ones don't workj
Nov 20 09:30:40 <aquatix> RST38h: from default install/cd yes
Nov 20 09:30:53 <lardman|home> hrw: not sure if I have a working pair anymore
Nov 20 09:30:56 <hrw> alterego: so far they do not
Nov 20 09:30:58 <aquatix> still, i think it's not a good move, as it is a nice demo app
Nov 20 09:31:01 <Jaffa> RST38h: More accurately, what aquatix said.
Nov 20 09:31:31 <alterego> That's a bit rubbish, I like the media controls on those remotes, I use them all the time.
Nov 20 09:31:34 <konttori> RST38h: no.... for downloading carmic coala!
Nov 20 09:31:36 <aquatix> but apparantly not that interesting for the default demographic canonical targets
Nov 20 09:31:42 <konttori> for use on my... n900
Nov 20 09:31:48 <jaem> konttori, "carmic coala"?  Is that the non-KDE version? :P
Nov 20 09:31:55 <aquatix> teehee
Nov 20 09:31:57 <hrw> alterego: so do I. I use AD-44 (2.5mm) with my E66
Nov 20 09:32:07 <aquatix> jaem: that's with CDE as default WM
Nov 20 09:32:14 <aquatix> s/WM/DE
Nov 20 09:32:22 <jaem> aquatix, ha
Nov 20 09:32:41 <konttori> RST38h: if they remove gimp from 10.04 will they also finally remove the GIMP toolkit?
Nov 20 09:32:44 <timeless_mbp> konttori: hrm, i think i meant to kick you
Nov 20 09:33:03 <timeless_mbp> konttori: sounds more like an Ubuntu 11 or Ubuntu 12 goal :)
Nov 20 09:33:11 <jaem> gah... stupid website
Nov 20 09:33:22 <jaem> my cell carrier keeps expiring my account, but not freeing the username
Nov 20 09:33:29 <konttori> would be great. Imho, they should just embrace qt and be done with it
Nov 20 09:33:32 <jaem> so I'm on the fifth username now
Nov 20 09:33:33 <jaem> :/
Nov 20 09:33:48 <jaem> konttori, QIMP?
Nov 20 09:33:51 <konttori> and have ubuntu as the non-cluttered version of kde.
Nov 20 09:33:53 <konttori> lol!
Nov 20 09:33:53 <jaem> didn't somebody try that?
Nov 20 09:34:06 <hrw> alterego: but if acceptcall button on WH-205/HS-47 works then AD-54 should be doable
Nov 20 09:34:07 <mikhas> the channel for qt trolls is #troll =p
Nov 20 09:34:10 <Khertan> hum ... question ... when i mount a ftp on the desktop with ubuntu ... it s not possible to access it by command line ?
Nov 20 09:34:14 <konttori> jaem: I did mean gnome moving to qt
Nov 20 09:34:25 <jaem> mikhas, good troll or bad troll? :P
Nov 20 09:34:35 <konttori> would be much better if gnome and kde both used just qt
Nov 20 09:34:38 <aquatix> Khertan: you mean through fuse?
Nov 20 09:34:39 <jaem> does Qt Software have a channel?
Nov 20 09:34:47 <aquatix> Khertan: it's mounted in your homedir somewhere
Nov 20 09:34:47 <konttori> and have the two design filosophies for the desktop
Nov 20 09:34:56 <Khertan> aquatix: i don't if it s use fuse anyway
Nov 20 09:35:02 <konttori> #qt
Nov 20 09:35:07 <jaem> right
Nov 20 09:35:08 <jaem> heh
Nov 20 09:35:15 <Khertan> konttori: it ll be better if kde use gtk
Nov 20 09:35:27 <Khertan> [10:35] <Khertan> konttori: it ll be better if kde use gtk
Nov 20 09:35:33 <jaem> Khertan, gah! no - don't say that!
Nov 20 09:35:42 <konttori> Khertan: are you serious?
Nov 20 09:35:53 <konttori> qt is far superior to gimp toolkit
Nov 20 09:35:55 <Khertan> konttori: yep ... keep gtk ...
Nov 20 09:36:02 <Khertan> konttori: you think it is ...
Nov 20 09:36:10 * jaem sniffs
Nov 20 09:36:14 <mikhas> opinions dont make facts
Nov 20 09:36:16 <jaem> is that burning bits?
Nov 20 09:36:16 <Khertan> konttori: but it s your point of view
Nov 20 09:36:27 * jaem smells flaming bits
Nov 20 09:36:28 <Khertan> konttori: i clearly prefer gkt
Nov 20 09:36:34 <konttori> well, true enough. Anyway, I prefer gnome over kde any day
Nov 20 09:36:47 <Khertan> specially when coding in python
Nov 20 09:36:57 <konttori> but qt and qt c++ are much better dev envs than gobject.
Nov 20 09:36:59 <hrw> use whatever you want.
Nov 20 09:37:07 <konttori> yeah, python and gtk make gtk quite nice to use
Nov 20 09:37:09 <Khertan> konttori: for you ... not for me
Nov 20 09:37:32 <Stskeeps> at least we have sortof freedom on toolkit on maemo5 :P
Nov 20 09:37:33 <Khertan> just a example
Nov 20 09:37:35 <RST38h> konttori: Are you installing karmic koala on your N900 right now? =)
Nov 20 09:37:43 <Khertan> i ve made a ui with glade
Nov 20 09:37:55 <Khertan> i m trying to made the same with qtdesigner
Nov 20 09:37:59 <jaem> Stskeeps, have they made Qt packages for the N900 yet that don't fill up the rootfs :/
Nov 20 09:38:01 <jaem> ?
Nov 20 09:38:17 <Khertan> it s just not easy to use
Nov 20 09:38:18 <konttori> RST38h: lol...
Nov 20 09:38:25 <jaem> I need it installed for a university project, but I don't want to uninstall everything else
Nov 20 09:38:28 <RST38h> konttori: If they remove GTK, GNOME people at Ubuntu may go postal and literally murder our last hope for a Linux desktop =)
Nov 20 09:38:30 <jaem> I think they're not packaged properly
Nov 20 09:38:42 <jaem> RST38h, fair point
Nov 20 09:39:00 <konttori> jaem: qt packages are optified
Nov 20 09:39:09 <konttori> and there is both 4.6 and 4.5 available
Nov 20 09:39:15 <jaem> konttori, really?
Nov 20 09:39:16 <jaem> huh
Nov 20 09:39:22 <jaem> where is 4.6 available from?  -devel?
Nov 20 09:40:01 <konttori> by the way, most of ovi store apps for n900 are qt based
Nov 20 09:40:05 <hrw> btw - which resolution is available on tvout from n900? qpal? qntsc?
Nov 20 09:40:07 <Khertan> [10:39] <konttori> jaem: qt packages are optified <<< are you sure ? last time i fill up the /
Nov 20 09:40:22 <Khertan> konttori: this doesn't make them good :)
Nov 20 09:40:25 <jaem> Khertan, that's what I thought... at least, as of about two days ago
Nov 20 09:40:46 <Khertan> pyside one isn't ...
Nov 20 09:41:10 <kirma> hrw: I understood in general use, it's the native display resolution rescaled
Nov 20 09:41:12 <lardman|home> how can one debug a .desktop file which isn't starting the app (which starts from the commandline?)
Nov 20 09:41:32 <kirma> specific hardware capabilities would be interesting, certainly
Nov 20 09:41:40 <lardman|home> and, can I use the same .desktop file on Diablo and Fremantle (i.e. a Fremantle one on Diablo that is)
Nov 20 09:41:51 <konttori> Khertan: pyside isn't optified that's for sure
Nov 20 09:42:04 <konttori> also could be that 4.5 is not either, I thought it is, but not sure
Nov 20 09:42:19 <Khertan> lardman|home: pray
Nov 20 09:42:30 <jaem> konttori, sorry to reiterate, but where is 4.6 available from?
Nov 20 09:42:36 <jaem> I kind of need it :P
Nov 20 09:42:38 <lardman|home> Khertan: that bad? :(
Nov 20 09:42:41 <hrw> kirma: rescaled but to which res...
Nov 20 09:42:55 <Khertan> lardman|home: there is no way to debug this things ...
Nov 20 09:43:01 <lardman|home> Khertan: curiously I can't start it from the main menu and from the command line I've lost my hildon window and am back to a normal one
Nov 20 09:43:13 <Khertan> just modif ... try ... pray ... modif ... try ... pray ...
Nov 20 09:43:20 <suihkulokki> jaem: http://maemo.org/packages/source/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_source/qt4-maemo5/4.6.0~git20091118-0maemo1/
Nov 20 09:43:25 <jaem> yay
Nov 20 09:43:27 <lardman|home> lol
Nov 20 09:43:28 <jaem> thanks
Nov 20 09:43:30 <suihkulokki> jaem: also, #qt-maemo
Nov 20 09:43:34 <jaem> oh right... that reminds me
Nov 20 09:43:44 <jaem> Extras-devel is complaining at me when I try to refresh
Nov 20 09:43:49 <jaem> one sec - I'll grab the error
Nov 20 09:44:00 <alterego> The transition from Gtk to Qt is going to be interesting.
Nov 20 09:44:11 <alterego> I think we're going to lose a lot of valuable applications in the process for quite some time.
Nov 20 09:44:13 <Khertan> [10:44] <alterego> The transition from Gtk to Qt is going to be interesting. <<< nope .... it will not be
Nov 20 09:44:45 <konttori> alterego: well, harmattan will have gtk support still.
Nov 20 09:44:46 <Khertan> i still don't understand why not keeping gtk
Nov 20 09:44:50 <Jaffa> alterego: Most should be OK with carrying on using Gtk; the question is how much will a Gtk app have to change to match whatever new UI comes in
Nov 20 09:44:50 <jaem> error is: "No Hash entry in Release file /var/lib/apt/lists.new/....extras-devel_dists_fremantle_Release"
Nov 20 09:44:52 <Khertan> it s really a bad idea
Nov 20 09:45:09 <konttori> well, DUI is totally new stuff.
Nov 20 09:45:09 <mikhas> alterego, Qt devs will have to rewrite their apps as well  =)
Nov 20 09:45:11 <jaem> Khertan, well, they bought Trolltech for a reason...
Nov 20 09:45:16 <Jaffa> Khertan: Every time the screen redraws during rotation the limitations of Gtk are obvioous
Nov 20 09:45:32 <konttori> if you want the eye-candy and the convenience, then you need to do quite a bit of porting even from a qt app.
Nov 20 09:45:39 <alterego> mikhas: They wont have to do a complete rewriite, where as a lot of gnome tech based apps might.
Nov 20 09:45:42 <Khertan> Jaffa: which limitation ?
Nov 20 09:45:55 <jaem> hrm... anyone know what's up with extras-devel?  Is it just me?
Nov 20 09:46:03 <konttori> gtktreeview limitations are pretty obvious as well
Nov 20 09:46:03 <alterego> Is this move from Gtk+ to Qt, going to make all the glib stuff redundant aswell?
Nov 20 09:46:08 <konttori> compared to what qt has
Nov 20 09:46:10 <alterego> Will libosso get pushed into a C++ Qt based implementation?
Nov 20 09:46:11 <Jaffa> Khertan: That it doesn't work very well for the kind of thing they're doing with it.
Nov 20 09:46:18 <konttori> glib will stay
Nov 20 09:46:27 <Jaffa> jaem: Not tried recently; I'll turn it on so I can test the optified Python... hang on
Nov 20 09:46:35 <jaem> Jaffa, thanks
Nov 20 09:46:42 <konttori> libosso will probably be deprecated (not sure, but my guess)
Nov 20 09:46:43 <Khertan> konttori: i found the tree view is good ... the qt one ... i ven't yet successfully use it ... too much complex
Nov 20 09:46:52 <RST38h> konttori: Which does not say much about Ovi Store, given its app acceptancepolicies =(
Nov 20 09:46:59 <mikhas> konttori, I dont see where a cellrenderer is limited compared to that data() + delegate hack
Nov 20 09:47:09 <RST38h> konttori: No, seriously, who came up with that crap?
Nov 20 09:47:15 <Khertan> Jaffa: which kind ... it s work well on maemo 5 ...
Nov 20 09:47:20 <konttori> view + model + delegate you mean
Nov 20 09:47:23 <alterego> tbh, I don't really see much point in libosso anyway, it's just a dbus wrapper with some application reigstration crap.
Nov 20 09:47:35 <alterego> It's something extra that we shouldn't really need to worry about.
Nov 20 09:47:43 <konttori> the policies are for symbian app
Nov 20 09:47:50 <konttori> development
Nov 20 09:47:59 <mikhas> no, I meant the direct comparision of the niceties a cellrenderer offers vs. the ugliness that data() + delegate offer
Nov 20 09:48:21 <konttori> sorry, emilia is 'helping' me type better
Nov 20 09:48:49 * Khertan don't like how interface are think in qt ... but like how it s done in gtk
Nov 20 09:49:07 <lardman|home> argh, give me my hildon window back you buggers!
Nov 20 09:49:16 <lardman|home> not talking to anyone in particular
Nov 20 09:49:21 <Khertan> :)
Nov 20 09:50:10 <konttori> policies for ovi store apps will msot likely be different for n900 apps once ovi store is opened
Nov 20 09:50:29 <konttori> but, to be hones, I don't have a clear visibility to the ovi store process, that's just my own guessing
Nov 20 09:51:28 <tero> could someone tell me why my treeview's row height changes when I put in into hildon.pannablearea instead of gtk.scrolledwindow?
Nov 20 09:52:06 <tero> on maemo5
Nov 20 09:52:45 <RST38h> tero: I think you want an extra vbox
Nov 20 09:53:08 * lardman|home doesn't look forward to debugging Diablo .desktop file this evening
Nov 20 09:53:10 <lardman|home> bbl
Nov 20 09:53:26 <RST38h> konttori: Even for Symbian apps, this stuff sounds ridiculous :)
Nov 20 09:54:52 <konttori> RST38h: it does, but I don't care about symbian apps
Nov 20 09:55:06 <konttori> so, it's all perfectly fine if they shoot themselves in the foot
Nov 20 09:55:40 <konttori> as long as we make it so that we allow also some of you guys to dev apps that you can use to make some income as well
Nov 20 09:56:28 <kirma> hrw: you might dig up specifics supported by omap3 from this: http://www-s.ti.com/sc/techlit/sprufa4
Nov 20 09:56:45 <konttori> and that cannot happen as long as we have silly policies like that 1 meur insurance
Nov 20 09:56:53 <kirma> heh, 421 pages ;)
Nov 20 09:57:49 <kirma> I believe the hardware could generate "native" resolution signal to tv out easily, but it's just not implemented on software
Nov 20 09:57:52 <kirma> might be nice though
Nov 20 09:59:07 <timeless_mbp> hrm
Nov 20 09:59:13 <timeless_mbp> what's the bug # for OK/Cancel in browser?
Nov 20 09:59:14 <kirma> I suppose N900 output is composite video?
Nov 20 09:59:47 <timeless_mbp> kirma: as opposed to?
Nov 20 09:59:59 <kirma> s-video
Nov 20 10:00:07 <kirma> supported by OMAP3
Nov 20 10:00:27 <kirma> oh well. I could check the service manual that I have somewhere...
Nov 20 10:01:03 <gouverneur> kirma: the OMAP3 supports IrDA but we dont know if the Ir device does yet
Nov 20 10:01:33 <timeless_mbp> kirma: there's no video port
Nov 20 10:01:39 <fragment> kirma: composite, cable is included
Nov 20 10:01:47 <gouverneur> kirma: service manual?
Nov 20 10:01:49 <timeless_mbp> there's a 3.5" port which works with a composite out cable
Nov 20 10:01:57 <kirma> fragment: yep, so I thought
Nov 20 10:02:31 <gouverneur> timeless_mbp: its mm
Nov 20 10:02:36 <kirma> gouverneur: you know, for service centers diagnosing problems
Nov 20 10:02:42 <timeless_mbp> gouverneur: oops :)
Nov 20 10:02:42 <tero> RST38h: thanks, that fixed the row height.. unfortunately it also broke scrolling using treeview.scroll_to_cell() :/
Nov 20 10:02:47 <timeless_mbp> 3.5" screen, 3.5mm jack
Nov 20 10:02:49 <timeless_mbp> so confusing :)
Nov 20 10:03:01 <timeless_mbp> it didn't sound right when i typed/read it, so thanks for the correction :)
Nov 20 10:03:03 <kirma> timeless_mbp: I suppose it's composite video and mono audio or something?
Nov 20 10:03:13 <jaem> Jaffa, any word?
Nov 20 10:03:18 <aquatix> timeless_mbp: 3.5' batterypack?
Nov 20 10:03:20 <timeless_mbp> there are 3 cables: red, yellow, white
Nov 20 10:03:27 <gouverneur> kirma: is there a leak in your service center? like FAX or a scanner? ;)
Nov 20 10:03:28 <timeless_mbp> my impression is that it's stereo
Nov 20 10:03:40 <timeless_mbp> s/cables/plugs/ ?
Nov 20 10:03:52 <gouverneur> cinch
Nov 20 10:04:04 <aquatix> timeless_mbp: red and white sound like stereo
Nov 20 10:04:05 <gouverneur> all three and stereo yes
Nov 20 10:04:34 <gouverneur> like the video3 input on your TV
Nov 20 10:05:02 <gouverneur> (most of the time t´his is 3)
Nov 20 10:05:09 <kirma> gouverneur: google for n900 service manual... there's a site that basically sells these things for rather low subscription fee if you're interested. the legality of it is... questionable, but maybe not in the country of origin.
Nov 20 10:05:54 <timeless_mbp> jaem: so... vibrate
Nov 20 10:06:12 <gouverneur> kirma: you know that just for the sake I should not buy one
Nov 20 10:06:12 <jaem> timeless_mbp, what?
Nov 20 10:06:13 <timeless_mbp> hrm, i think i fixed that already
Nov 20 10:06:18 <jaem> oh right
Nov 20 10:06:19 <jaem> good
Nov 20 10:06:21 <timeless_mbp> and i've fixed Yes/No :)
Nov 20 10:06:23 <jaem> yay
Nov 20 10:06:37 <jaem> do you have to check the no box, and then click yes? XD
Nov 20 10:06:55 <hrw> kirma: I have 3 omap3 boards at desk
Nov 20 10:07:00 <timeless_mbp> bah
Nov 20 10:07:04 <hrw> kirma: and use 1280x800x16 with them
Nov 20 10:07:04 <timeless_mbp> there's a vbox 3.0.12
Nov 20 10:07:05 <kirma> I'd say that service manual isn't particularly useful for anything unless one is addicted to reading technical documents
Nov 20 10:07:48 <timeless_mbp> so... is anyone using mxr.maemo.org/fremantle? :)
Nov 20 10:07:58 <kirma> hrw: I know it's possible, but details about TV out might be different... I suppose the doc I pasted might have some sort of an answer ;)
Nov 20 10:08:07 <hrw> k
Nov 20 10:08:36 <hrw> the worst thing is that this is composite. so PAL 720x576 is probably max what can be done
Nov 20 10:09:55 <timeless> stskeeps: vbox 3.0.12 killed my mbp
Nov 20 10:09:59 <Stskeeps> timeless: not bad
Nov 20 10:10:06 <timeless> it's chirping
Nov 20 10:10:17 <kirma> "up to 60 megasamples per second" ... speaking of limitations imposed by the plain DAC on TV part
Nov 20 10:11:29 <Jaffa> jaem: Sorry, had a power cut.
Nov 20 10:11:58 <Khertan> http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/modest/src/gnome/modest-msg-edit-window.c <<< they use gtk source view ?
Nov 20 10:11:59 <jaem> Jaffa, :( oops
Nov 20 10:12:01 <Khertan> ???
Nov 20 10:12:09 <jaem> Khertan, O_o
Nov 20 10:12:25 <Khertan> but on n900 it s look like a pannable area
Nov 20 10:12:30 <RST38h> tero: It starts sounding like Avkon.
Nov 20 10:12:31 <Khertan> not a scrolledwindow
Nov 20 10:12:42 <jaem> speaking of, is there *really* no way to copy text out of Modest's message view window?!
Nov 20 10:12:43 <RST38h> Which is disturbing.
Nov 20 10:12:51 <Jaffa> jaem: extras-devel is working within HAM
Nov 20 10:12:55 <RST38h> jaem: Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V
Nov 20 10:13:00 <jaem> Jaffa, thanks, I'll give it another try
Nov 20 10:13:06 <jaem> RST38h, but selecting...
Nov 20 10:13:09 <jaem> is there a gesture
Nov 20 10:13:13 <jaem> am I just an idiot?
Nov 20 10:13:21 <RST38h> hmmm...it does not? lemme check
Nov 20 10:13:30 <Jaffa> jaem: shift & Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V apparently
Nov 20 10:13:34 <gouverneur> kirma: yes it is interessting to know the wireing of the device
Nov 20 10:13:49 <gouverneur> kirma: on which side of open source do you live?
Nov 20 10:14:00 <jaem> Jaffa, shift+drag?
Nov 20 10:14:02 <jaem> or what?
Nov 20 10:14:16 <hrw> timeless: I use vbox 3.0.12 on my debian
Nov 20 10:14:26 <Jaffa> jaem: Shift+ Cursor keys was what was said in the earlier bug report
Nov 20 10:14:28 <tero> RST38h: I guess the problem is that the pannablearea and treeview inside vbox don't know about each other
Nov 20 10:14:30 <RST38h> Oh shit, it really does not let you mark text!
Nov 20 10:14:41 <Jaffa> That's genious
Nov 20 10:14:49 <timeless_mbp_> hrw: how long have you had 3.0.12?
Nov 20 10:14:51 <Jaffa> s/genious/genius/ *coughj*
Nov 20 10:14:55 <RST38h> Is there a bug filed for that?
Nov 20 10:14:56 <jaem> RST38h, :P
Nov 20 10:15:00 <jaem> not yet
Nov 20 10:15:21 <jaem> I would, but I'm trying to get a bursary application in, and it's 2:30am
Nov 20 10:15:22 <jaem> do you mind?
Nov 20 10:15:25 <timeless_mbp_> ooh
Nov 20 10:15:28 <timeless_mbp_> there's a beta of 3.1
Nov 20 10:15:32 <timeless_mbp_> hrw: have you tried the beta?
Nov 20 10:15:36 <RST38h> jaem: Should I file?
Nov 20 10:15:42 <jaem> RST38h, please
Nov 20 10:15:47 <RST38h> ok
Nov 20 10:16:48 <RST38h> tero: Treeview probably does not know how to scroll, it thinks it is shown wholly inside that vbox
Nov 20 10:17:17 <kirma> gouverneur: I'm not quite certain what you refer to, but I'm not related to nokia... home hacker and professionally writing closed source network security running on open source based appliances
Nov 20 10:17:35 <RST38h> tero: If there is a way to translate item id ==> y coordinate in the tree view, you can use that y cooridnate to scroll the vbox
Nov 20 10:19:16 <timeless_mbp_> RST38h: if you want to select text you have to use reply/forward
Nov 20 10:21:01 * RST38h sighs
Nov 20 10:21:13 <RST38h> bug #6258 gentlemen
Nov 20 10:21:15 <povbot> Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6258 Modest message view does not let user select text
Nov 20 10:21:32 <mikhas> I think I did select text once
Nov 20 10:21:46 <mikhas> andre__ helped me wit that ...
Nov 20 10:22:06 <mikhas> could it be it's a regression, rather than a new bug?
Nov 20 10:22:52 <matmo> hi all, sure I saw a post a few weeks back about an exchange programme for N900's handed back from the summit loans. Did I imagine it or can anyone point me to info?
Nov 20 10:23:37 <mikhas> RST38h, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5033
Nov 20 10:23:38 <povbot> Bug 5033: Select/Copy text withing email is nonintuitive/broken
Nov 20 10:24:05 <RST38h> mikhas: Ah, so there was a bug for that!
Nov 20 10:24:10 <mikhas> no not exactly
Nov 20 10:24:19 <mikhas> this one is for "reply to email" mode
Nov 20 10:24:25 <mikhas> yours is for "reading email"
Nov 20 10:24:34 <RST38h> Ok, it is different then
Nov 20 10:24:44 <mikhas> yes, perhaps link to it still
Nov 20 10:24:59 <mikhas> and confirm that you can still select text in reply mode
Nov 20 10:25:02 <RST38h> Althoguh it feels almost like there should be a single bug report for Modest: "Modest does nto work"
Nov 20 10:25:06 <mikhas> =)
Nov 20 10:25:32 <tigert> hey, it sends and receives mail :)
Nov 20 10:25:41 <RST38h> tigert: for some people, yes
Nov 20 10:25:49 <RST38h> tigert: for my pop3 account, it does not
Nov 20 10:26:01 <tigert> ah
Nov 20 10:26:19 <RST38h> pop3 is broken beyond usable
Nov 20 10:26:30 <mikhas> yes, even without modest =p
Nov 20 10:26:31 <jaem> RST38h, correction: in Diablo modest DidNotWork (TM)... in Fremantle it just has issues
Nov 20 10:26:39 <RST38h> imap kinda works but goes bonkers over large folders (guess the size of gmail folders)
Nov 20 10:26:56 <jaem> in fact, as much as some things like the lack of text selection are stupid, at least it functions, and is reasonably speddy
Nov 20 10:27:04 <RST38h> jaem: That is a difference between DidNot and DoesNot. I am talking of N900 Modest
Nov 20 10:27:10 <jaem> Gmail IMAP on Diablo's Modest was completely unusable
Nov 20 10:27:16 <jaem> on the N900 is just has issues
Nov 20 10:27:28 <jaem> but it works well enough that I bother to use it
Nov 20 10:27:34 <Stskeeps> hmm, anyone noticed location-test-gui in SDK?
Nov 20 10:27:44 <RST38h> jaem: I also use it...Sometimes. Once a week.
Nov 20 10:27:54 <jaem> RST38h, I use it several times a day
Nov 20 10:27:57 <Jaffa> jaem: It could be better if it made up its mind whether it had to be online or not to show you email; the caching implementation, and updating, is the second biggest annoyance to me after not having an option to put sigs below quotes and have a proper attribution
Nov 20 10:27:58 <jaem> annoying bugs, yes
Nov 20 10:28:06 <jaem> unusable, no - at least, not for me
Nov 20 10:28:10 <RST38h> jaem: You are probably llucky to have your exact use case covered
Nov 20 10:28:16 <jaem> RST38h, probably
Nov 20 10:28:25 <jaem> but it's still miles better than Diablo's Modest
Nov 20 10:28:26 <RST38h> jaem: because I cannot use it for pop3
Nov 20 10:28:32 <jaem> RST38h, :O
Nov 20 10:28:52 <jaem> okay, I'll rephrase that... when it works, it works reasonably well
Nov 20 10:28:53 <RST38h> And for GMail I sometimes use it, but can't call it pleasant experience
Nov 20 10:28:54 <jaem> lol
Nov 20 10:29:11 <jaem> the lack of a "search my inbox of 8000 messages" feature is a bit obtuse
Nov 20 10:29:14 <jaem> :/
Nov 20 10:29:24 <RST38h> SSH + PINE does it for me
Nov 20 10:29:42 <RST38h> Incredibly, lowly PINE *will* search my 8000-message folders
Nov 20 10:30:02 <aquatix> (al)pine is rather nice
Nov 20 10:30:40 <RST38h> But, of course, this cannot be counted as a victory for Maemo Devices :(
Nov 20 10:31:09 <jaem> I've finally decided that I do like kinetic scrolling in the terminal... however, has anyone else noticed that the cursor button sometimes doesn't appear? :S
Nov 20 10:31:35 <jaem> I recently noticed it, although it had been nagging in the back of my head for a while, I think
Nov 20 10:31:46 <jaem> I haven't seen it happen recently, but I'll file a bug when I do
Nov 20 10:34:23 * jaem has to get working on some Maemo coding this weekend
Nov 20 10:34:55 * SpeedEvil batters a maemo cod, and eats it for breakfast.
Nov 20 10:34:55 <jaem> my university project team has to get a demo ready for a high-publicity event, and we're really short on time
Nov 20 10:35:15 <jaem> actually, first we have to demo it to Nokia
Nov 20 10:35:23 <viq> I saw a package of claws-mail, that searches too ;)
Nov 20 10:35:30 <jaem> then, a week and a half later, we have to demo it to a much larger audience
Nov 20 10:35:32 <jaem> sigh
Nov 20 10:35:33 <jaem> not enough time
Nov 20 10:35:53 <jaem> huh
Nov 20 10:35:56 * SpeedEvil ponders what the project might be.
Nov 20 10:36:02 <SpeedEvil> n900 powered velociraptor?
Nov 20 10:36:03 <jaem> SpeedEvil, I can't say much at the moment
Nov 20 10:36:06 <jaem> close
Nov 20 10:36:10 <jaem> XP
Nov 20 10:36:12 <jaem> just kidding
Nov 20 10:36:32 <jaem> SpeedEvil, once it's been demoed, I can talk more about it
Nov 20 10:36:53 <Jaffa> jaem: the cursor button doesn't appear if there's no scrollback
Nov 20 10:36:59 <Jaffa> (e.g. you're using screen)
Nov 20 10:37:03 <jaem> Jaffa, that could be it
Nov 20 10:37:03 <jaem> heh
Nov 20 10:37:11 <jaem> also explains why it was nagging at me
Nov 20 10:37:21 <jaem> Jaffa, apt has no issue with extras-devel, but HAM still complains at me, and refuses to list it
Nov 20 10:37:22 <jaem> odd
Nov 20 10:37:48 <jaem> wait... nvm
Nov 20 10:37:50 <jaem> hrmmmm
Nov 20 10:37:59 <jaem> it says the catalogue failed, but it's listing it now
Nov 20 10:47:36 <ccooke> Morning, all
Nov 20 10:49:17 <hrw> argh... compiz in ubuntu
Nov 20 10:49:29 <jaem> ccooke, morning
Nov 20 10:49:47 <gouverneur> hrw: argh... ubuntu
Nov 20 10:50:06 <aquatix> yay ubuntu
Nov 20 10:50:07 <aquatix> :P
Nov 20 10:50:11 <Shapeshifter> arch is the best
Nov 20 10:50:19 <aquatix> no, debian!
Nov 20 10:50:22 <gouverneur> Shapeshifter: depends
Nov 20 10:50:27 <jaem> Shapeshifter, +1
Nov 20 10:50:29 <gouverneur> aquatix: depends aswell
Nov 20 10:50:36 <aquatix> ghehe
Nov 20 10:50:41 <Shapeshifter> gouverneur: you could even say "depends" for windows.
Nov 20 10:50:42 <aquatix> to everyone his/her own
Nov 20 10:50:48 * aquatix doesn't care
Nov 20 10:50:54 <jaem> gouverneur, true... I can appreciate both, despite not using *buntu on my primary machines
Nov 20 10:50:55 <viq> Slashdot says ubuntu removes gimp as being "too complicated" ;P
Nov 20 10:50:59 <Shapeshifter> clearly, windows the best.
Nov 20 10:51:03 <Shapeshifter> if you want to play far cry
Nov 20 10:51:06 <gouverneur> I would't install an arch or slack or gentoo onto a 24/7 productive server
Nov 20 10:51:10 <aquatix> viq: only from default install/cd
Nov 20 10:51:12 <jaem> Shapeshifter, viq, yeah - Windows has MSPain!
Nov 20 10:51:18 <jaem> paint*
Nov 20 10:51:20 <jaem> but also pain
Nov 20 10:51:23 <jaem> -snerk-
Nov 20 10:51:27 <tigert> slackware was fun in 1995 :)
Nov 20 10:51:32 <Shapeshifter> mspain, right :)
Nov 20 10:51:39 <tigert> it had the coolest theme for man page colors =)
Nov 20 10:51:47 <tigert> quite a bit has changed since...
Nov 20 10:51:54 <gouverneur> viq: it is... or do you know some n00b who is able to work with any adobe programs?
Nov 20 10:52:20 <Shapeshifter> gimp ain't that bad
Nov 20 10:52:23 <gouverneur> scribus gimp and so on are known to be for advanced users only
Nov 20 10:52:37 <jaem> gouverneur, it's a pity Paint.NET is... .NET
Nov 20 10:52:41 <jaem> I quite liked it on Windows
Nov 20 10:52:48 <jaem> even if it got a bit fat by the end
Nov 20 10:52:51 <viq> gouverneur: I am not quallified to comment ;)
Nov 20 10:52:59 <tigert> inkscape and gimp has gotten me this far on my professional career :)
Nov 20 10:53:06 <Shapeshifter> real men use imagemagick xD
Nov 20 10:53:10 <tigert> some Adobe stuff every now and then, but I keep returning to inkscape
Nov 20 10:53:17 <jaem> Shapeshifter, real men use a hex editor
Nov 20 10:53:22 <tigert> Shapeshifter: I do that too, but its a bit hard to edit shapes with it :)
Nov 20 10:53:28 <Shapeshifter> jaem: I knew this was next
Nov 20 10:53:33 <gouverneur> gimp isnt bad but its that feature rich that most joes get hit by dialoges they never understand
Nov 20 10:53:35 <tigert> imagemagick is a resource hog thouhg
Nov 20 10:53:41 <jaem> Shapeshifter, toggle switches and patch cables? :P
Nov 20 10:53:51 <tigert> gouverneur: yeah its not a simple paint app :)
Nov 20 10:53:54 <jaem> Shapeshifter, butterflies?
Nov 20 10:53:59 <Shapeshifter> jaem: exactly.
Nov 20 10:54:06 <tigert> gouverneur: then again, simple tools are there and it is no problem to get started
Nov 20 10:54:30 * Shapeshifter likes fireworks the most.
Nov 20 10:54:37 <jaem> Shapeshifter, I actually took a class where we had to write ASM on paper, hand-assemble it from the back of a dead-tree reference manual, and type it into RAM on a hex keypad
Nov 20 10:54:47 <jaem> they kept telling us they'd get the computers set up, but they didn't
Nov 20 10:54:50 <jaem> in 8 months
Nov 20 10:54:54 <jaem> >_<
Nov 20 10:54:56 <Shapeshifter> ^^
Nov 20 10:54:58 <gouverneur> I use imagemagick for all pictures but for skizzing
Nov 20 10:55:06 <tigert> the N810 theme was done in inkscape, vectors are nice for that stuff since it is easy to edit colors etc later
Nov 20 10:55:09 <jaem> gouverneur, say again?
Nov 20 10:55:18 <gouverneur> I use imagemagick for all pictures but for skizzing
Nov 20 10:55:23 <gouverneur> ;)
Nov 20 10:55:23 <tigert> and inkscape does a good job in keeping on the pixel grid
Nov 20 10:55:27 <jaem> gouverneur, I meant, "clarify"
Nov 20 10:55:34 <jaem> tigert, true
Nov 20 10:55:35 <timeless_mbp> jaem: doesn't .NET run on Moonlight?
Nov 20 10:55:39 <alterego> Inkscape is probably one of my favorite linux UI apps.
Nov 20 10:55:42 <alterego> ~gui apps.
Nov 20 10:55:54 <Shapeshifter> jaem: don't you know skizzing? It's like skiing, but for cool people.
Nov 20 10:55:59 <alterego> timeless_mbp: you mean, moonlight runs on .net :P
Nov 20 10:56:04 <jaem> timeless_mbp, Mono, yes, bt Paint.NET uses MS' proprietary ink extensions
Nov 20 10:56:25 <timeless_mbp> mono moon, moon mono...
Nov 20 10:56:32 <timeless_mbp> 'ink'
Nov 20 10:56:33 <jaem> tigert, alterego, check out http://murphyslab.ca/2009/11/07/graphing-with-inkscape/ by a friend of mine
Nov 20 10:56:36 <jaem> interesting read
Nov 20 10:56:41 <timeless_mbp> ?
Nov 20 10:56:48 <jaem> timeless_mbp, yeah - inking, as in with a pen
Nov 20 10:56:53 <jaem> or a mouse, if you don't have a tablet
Nov 20 10:57:06 <jaem> but last I checked, Mono had no equivalent libs
Nov 20 10:57:13 <gouverneur> jaem: copy paste resize drawing-simple-things watermark text effects and so on I do with imagemagick if I need to do more than one picture
Nov 20 10:57:30 <lardman> re
Nov 20 10:57:35 <tigert> jaem: wow
Nov 20 10:57:36 <gouverneur> ink I use for vector stuff
Nov 20 10:57:37 <tigert> sweet
Nov 20 10:57:45 <alterego> jaem: that is sweet, thanks :)
Nov 20 10:58:00 <jaem> tigert, alterego, you're welcome, but all the credit goes to my friend
Nov 20 10:58:22 <jaem> oh yeah... I went to Costco today, and scanned for networks on my N900... one of them had the SSID "...a Hidden Network"
Nov 20 10:58:29 <jaem> ...I think they missed a crucial point there
Nov 20 10:58:32 <jaem> Fail
Nov 20 10:58:34 <tigert> :)
Nov 20 10:58:36 <alterego> Hahah
Nov 20 10:58:57 <tigert> I once saw "NEIGHBOUR: GET YOUR OWN GODDAMN INTERNET!" -ssid (in finnish of course)
Nov 20 10:59:05 <tigert> that was pretty funny :)
Nov 20 10:59:38 <jaem> tigert, lol...
Nov 20 10:59:58 <jaem> hmm... I was thinking... Evernote + N900 would be awesome for lecture notes
Nov 20 11:00:00 <timeless_mbp> jaem: um
Nov 20 11:00:04 <timeless_mbp> is that really the side?
Nov 20 11:00:06 <Shapeshifter> sometimes when I'm bored I'll take out kismet while on the train to work
Nov 20 11:00:07 <timeless_mbp> er ssid
Nov 20 11:00:08 <gouverneur> Shapeshifter: jaem: if they didnt remove avatars and so form maemo I could show you one of my pics (handmade not computer)
Nov 20 11:00:11 <Shapeshifter> funny essids everywhere
Nov 20 11:00:17 <timeless_mbp> because i think that's my localization's text
Nov 20 11:00:21 <Shapeshifter> like "obama"
Nov 20 11:00:21 <jaem> however, the people that take photos of the lecture notes tend to make a bad reputation by being stupid, and I don't want that stigma
Nov 20 11:00:23 <inz> tigert, reminds me of the old "norwegian virus" -joke
Nov 20 11:00:26 <Shapeshifter> "scheiss windows"
Nov 20 11:00:35 <tigert> inz: ?
Nov 20 11:00:39 <gouverneur> Shapeshifter: da hast du wohl recht
Nov 20 11:00:46 <gouverneur> brb
Nov 20 11:00:54 <inz> tigert, "You have just received a Norwegian virus. Since we are not so technologically advanced in Norway, this is a MANUAL virus. Please delete all the files on your hard disk yourself and send this mail to everyone you know."
Nov 20 11:01:02 <Shapeshifter> gouverneur: was an essid I saw on the way to work ;)
Nov 20 11:01:04 <timeless_mbp> "... a hidden network"
Nov 20 11:01:08 <timeless_mbp> is the string i use
Nov 20 11:01:18 <jaem> timeless_mbp, >_<... I should have guessed
Nov 20 11:01:19 <timeless_mbp> so if H and N are capitalized, then the network really has that name
Nov 20 11:01:23 <gouverneur> Shapeshifter: nice
Nov 20 11:01:30 <tigert> jaem: pen + paper (less geeky and easier to write) + N900 camera to "fax" them to evernote would work
Nov 20 11:01:36 <tigert> or flickr or whatever
Nov 20 11:01:36 <jaem> in fact, I think a friend asked, and it came to mind
Nov 20 11:01:37 <jaem> heh
Nov 20 11:01:58 <gouverneur> Shapeshifter: a-hell-of-a-hotspot is coming along my way
Nov 20 11:02:01 <timeless_mbp> i should see if there are any special characters i can stick into those buttons to highlight "this is *SPECIAL*"
Nov 20 11:02:07 <Shapeshifter> ^^
Nov 20 11:02:17 <jaem> tigert, good point actually... I don't know why that didn't occur to me
Nov 20 11:02:24 <jaem> but their OCR seems pretty good
Nov 20 11:02:50 <mikhas> my handwriting easily breaks any OCR
Nov 20 11:03:03 <tigert> jaem: I do mindmaps and such usually when taking notes
Nov 20 11:03:10 <tigert> so ocr is kinda pointless
Nov 20 11:03:14 <tigert> so images would work for me
Nov 20 11:03:30 <jaem> tigert, same for a lot of my notes, but the advantage of Evernote is that it stores images, but indexes the text
Nov 20 11:03:46 <jaem> so I could, say, look up some calculus theorem by name, and find the graph
Nov 20 11:04:05 <tigert> oooh right
Nov 20 11:04:07 * tigert tries
Nov 20 11:04:27 <jaem> hrm... has anyone tried hooking up a Wacom Bamboo tablet to the N810?
Nov 20 11:04:46 <jaem> I doubt it would have enough current supply
Nov 20 11:04:52 <jaem> but that would be pretty awesome for xournal
Nov 20 11:05:03 <tigert> the touchscreen itself has pressure sensitivity a bit
Nov 20 11:05:09 <jaem> my handwriting's pretty messy, so I have to zoom in way too far to write neatly
Nov 20 11:05:11 <jaem> yeah
Nov 20 11:05:17 <tigert> its much easier to draw on the screen itself when the dpi is high
Nov 20 11:05:19 <jaem> but the panning bugs me
Nov 20 11:05:22 <jaem> mmhmm
Nov 20 11:05:24 <tigert> sure
Nov 20 11:05:28 <jaem> I suppose
Nov 20 11:05:32 <tigert> so write on a paper sheet and photograph it :)
Nov 20 11:05:35 <tigert> less trouble :)
Nov 20 11:05:37 <tigert> *snap*
Nov 20 11:05:55 <jaem> I was bugging what's-his-name who's working on the Fremantle Xournal port to add some sort of paging ability
Nov 20 11:06:09 <jaem> but with no hardware buttons on the face, that's a bit more awkward
Nov 20 11:06:21 <jaem> a gesture would be nice
Nov 20 11:06:37 <jaem> something that could be done with the hand that's holding the device, while using a stylus with the other
Nov 20 11:06:40 <tigert> two fingers to pan?
Nov 20 11:06:45 <tigert> and one to draw would work
Nov 20 11:06:51 <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270485833257&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.co.uk%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm38%26_nkw%3D270485833257%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 is clearly the correct solution for doing n900 images.
Nov 20 11:06:56 <tigert> I guess you could detect something from the touch area size
Nov 20 11:07:34 <jaem> tigert, writing with your finger?! um... no
Nov 20 11:08:18 <jaem> I meant a paging gesture, as in "do something with your left thumb to slide it right/carriage return on EOL" while writing with your right hand/stylus
Nov 20 11:08:40 <jaem> as long as you're writing within the lines, it could work, and obviously you could turn it off if you're not
Nov 20 11:08:56 <tigert> yeah
Nov 20 11:09:29 <jaem> there was some talk about making it (in the future) be aware of larger units of writing than just strokes
Nov 20 11:09:48 <jaem> e.g. it knows that a group of letter close together is a word, and can add intelligence based on that
Nov 20 11:11:33 <Shapeshifter> mhh. I don't really get why resistive touch screens didn't have multitouch until only recently.
Nov 20 11:11:51 <jaem> Shapeshifter, are those the 5-wire panels?
Nov 20 11:11:53 <SpeedEvil> Shapeshifter: it's more complex to implement.
Nov 20 11:11:59 <jaem> or am I thinking of something else?
Nov 20 11:12:13 <SpeedEvil> Shapeshifter: you've got to basically segment the screen into lots of little screens to do multitouch
Nov 20 11:12:23 <Shapeshifter> I'm still reading on how they actually work
Nov 20 11:13:44 <jaem> hmm... well, that application is done... my uni has a "work-study" program that allows you to work for a prof to earn some cash
Nov 20 11:14:04 <jaem> only I didn't apply in time for this semester, so the project I mentioned that I'm doing, I'm doing for free
Nov 20 11:14:14 <jaem> I'm hoping to get payed for it next semester :P
Nov 20 11:14:32 <jaem> by the way, sbox allows multiple users, right?
Nov 20 11:14:53 <jaem> that was the impression I was under, but then I was told otherwise... and I haven't had time to look into it
Nov 20 11:15:14 <Stskeeps> yeah
Nov 20 11:15:21 <jaem> Stskeeps, any limitations?
Nov 20 11:15:46 <Stskeeps> well, fakeroot affects all users i guess
Nov 20 11:15:49 <Stskeeps> but i can't recall
Nov 20 11:16:03 * jaem nods
Nov 20 11:20:46 <Lorthirk> woah, n900 available on italian nokia shop
Nov 20 11:21:07 <jaem> O_o  why does ankiqt have >= deps on two different versions of libqt4-core, as well as = deps on one of them? ...I guess that's why it's in -devel
Nov 20 11:21:32 <jaem> I'm glad the maemo.org team decided to split it into -devel and -testing
Nov 20 11:21:51 <hrw> Lorthirk: n900 is available in all nokia webshops. except DDP one
Nov 20 11:22:26 <Lorthirk> it was only on preorder until yesterday (always talking about italian...)
Nov 20 11:26:50 <kirma> hrw: after lots of digging, I conclude that highest tv resolution N900 might be able to output is 944*576 or so (wide-screen square pixel PAL)
Nov 20 11:27:17 <DocScrutinizer> did Nokia care to add a decent voice-control to N900? as Maemo5 has some blobs anyway, I guess Nokia could port the voice control from e.g. N97 as well
Nov 20 11:27:42 <Jaffa> DocScrutinizer: There is no voice control currently, AFAIK
Nov 20 11:28:18 <DocScrutinizer> :-S
Nov 20 11:28:33 <DocScrutinizer> thanks for the info anyway, Jaffa
Nov 20 11:28:43 <kirma> err, not quite so. 848x576... mmaybe.
Nov 20 11:29:19 <hrw> kirma: thx
Nov 20 11:29:59 <kirma> but achieving that is another thing, although that part of the video hardware is openly documented
Nov 20 11:30:43 <kirma> I assume that 59 MHz clock is available on the chip... just hoping I didn't misinterpret the documentation.
Nov 20 11:31:02 <jaem> kirma, where are you getting the docs from?
Nov 20 11:31:17 <DocScrutinizer> :-) my question
Nov 20 11:31:38 <kirma> in this specific case, I'm browsing through http://www-s.ti.com/sc/techlit/sprufa4
Nov 20 11:31:53 <kirma> just generic OMAP35x documentation
Nov 20 11:31:59 <jaem> ah, okay
Nov 20 11:32:09 <jaem> is there an overview of the N900 hardware anywhere?
Nov 20 11:34:08 <kirma> service manual has some higher-level information on internal components and service schematics would have specifics, but neither are really public documentation, although widespread once phone is on market
Nov 20 11:34:12 <tbf> jaem: http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/ is not sufficient?
Nov 20 11:34:42 <jaem> tbf, I meant components, not general specs
Nov 20 11:34:50 <jaem> kirma, figured as much ;)
Nov 20 11:35:23 <DocScrutinizer> thnx :-)
Nov 20 11:35:44 <kirma> I believe there will be crack-open kind of stuff in relatively short time around the web
Nov 20 11:35:58 <fragment> kirma: are you looking for some specific information or just everything generally?
Nov 20 11:36:29 <jaem> konttori, what is the "transitioncontrol" package for?
Nov 20 11:36:43 <jaem> your pkg description isn't exactly enlightening :P
Nov 20 11:36:44 <Stskeeps> disabling transitions in UI
Nov 20 11:36:51 <jaem> ah
Nov 20 11:36:51 <Stskeeps> in hildon desktop specifically
Nov 20 11:36:56 <konttori> jaem: you can tune the transitions on the device with it
Nov 20 11:37:04 <jaem> tune == on/off, or "tune"?
Nov 20 11:37:05 <Stskeeps> ah, yes, tune
Nov 20 11:37:34 <konttori> so, you can tune them to be longer, shorter, you have lot's of granularity
Nov 20 11:37:35 <jaem> I was actually surprised at how much eyecandy they packed into the N900 while still making it quite usable
Nov 20 11:37:36 <kirma> fragment: I'm in general curious about things
Nov 20 11:37:38 <jaem> ooh
Nov 20 11:37:41 * jaem installs it
Nov 20 11:37:50 <jaem> konttori, is that in config in /etc somewheres?
Nov 20 11:38:04 <konttori> it's piss ass badly packaged (transitioncontrol)
Nov 20 11:38:12 <jaem> heh
Nov 20 11:38:37 <konttori> its /usr/share/hidon-desktop/transitions.ini
Nov 20 11:38:48 * jaem nods
Nov 20 11:38:53 <jaem> thanks!
Nov 20 11:39:49 <jaem> why is usbcontrol in the fremantle repos?  I thought USB host was out entirely... or is it just disabled in software?
Nov 20 11:40:40 <konttori> well, it doesn't work
Nov 20 11:40:43 <konttori> just happens to be there
Nov 20 11:40:51 <jaem> ah
Nov 20 11:40:59 <konttori> you can force usb to host mode though
Nov 20 11:41:04 <jaem> really?
Nov 20 11:41:08 <jaem> hrmm
Nov 20 11:41:09 <konttori> but not on a running device
Nov 20 11:41:12 <jaem> ah
Nov 20 11:41:16 <jaem> link?
Nov 20 11:41:19 <konttori> yeah. some flasher flag or something like that
Nov 20 11:41:21 <jaem> and how much of a hack is it?
Nov 20 11:41:23 <konttori> no idea on details
Nov 20 11:41:23 <jaem> oh, that
Nov 20 11:41:28 <konttori> just know that it's possible
Nov 20 11:41:48 <jaem> I'm guessing that it theoretically could be made to work without a reboot, then?
Nov 20 11:41:52 <Stskeeps> konttori: thought that was removed.. the question is if device is capable of host or not.. otg is less relevant :P
Nov 20 11:42:02 <jaem> Stskeeps, that's what I was wondering
Nov 20 11:42:12 <Stskeeps> i guess people will find out eventually
Nov 20 11:42:14 <konttori> you can still hack it to host mode afaik
Nov 20 11:42:17 <jaem> I never actually heard the whole story about that, mainly because of all the noise on the forums
Nov 20 11:42:24 <Stskeeps> yeah
Nov 20 11:42:36 <Stskeeps> they said USB OTG not working, which is obviously not practical, but if host pins still work, is something else
Nov 20 11:42:36 <jaem> hopefully we can... I quite liked being able to just plug a flash key into it
Nov 20 11:42:40 <jaem> and a keyboard would be nice
Nov 20 11:42:45 <jaem> Stskeeps, hmm
Nov 20 11:42:48 <Stskeeps> and then there's the whole charging issue
Nov 20 11:42:58 <konttori> bt keyboard is much better.
Nov 20 11:43:08 <konttori> and microsd is much better than usb key
Nov 20 11:43:14 <jaem> what is the difference between OTG, and providing host/device modes separately?
Nov 20 11:43:19 <konttori> port won't anyway have enough juice for proper usb keys
Nov 20 11:43:24 <jaem> aside from the detection part
Nov 20 11:43:33 <konttori> otg is able to switch on the fly. that's it
Nov 20 11:43:40 <RST38h> Apple BT Keyboard still does not work though =(
Nov 20 11:43:50 * RST38h sheds a tear at the cold aluminium
Nov 20 11:43:51 <jaem> konttori, on the fly, as in while running, or automatically?
Nov 20 11:43:58 <konttori> how come? someone needs to hack pple bt in!
Nov 20 11:44:02 <konttori> automatically
Nov 20 11:44:17 <jaem> konttori, the N810 will power an OCZ Rally2 flash drive, which IMO is one of the best out there, and probably not easy on power
Nov 20 11:44:28 <jaem> it won't power my Sandisk SD reader, though
Nov 20 11:44:29 <RST38h> konttori: Something is wrong with it :( The bt kbd connection method described at the summit does not work
Nov 20 11:44:33 <jaem> annoyingly enough
Nov 20 11:44:40 <konttori> for read it can probably power it, but not for writing
Nov 20 11:44:42 <RST38h> It is recognized, but does not work
Nov 20 11:44:51 <jaem> konttori, the flash key works fine for oth
Nov 20 11:45:02 <jaem> but it won't even power up the card reader
Nov 20 11:45:09 <jaem> I use the flash key all the time, actually
Nov 20 11:45:26 <RST38h> jaem: Seriously though, with 64MB top internal capacity in N900, why do you need a flash key?
Nov 20 11:46:30 <jaem> RST38h, fair point, and I always have a Nokia USB cable strapped onto my gadget holster (-grin-) anyway, but I do sometimes need to pull a file from a flash key I got from someone else
Nov 20 11:47:03 <RST38h> jaem: I am lazy and thuse use SCP =)
Nov 20 11:47:10 <RST38h> Except for stuff like video of course
Nov 20 11:47:15 <gouverneur> Shapeshifter: where are you from_
Nov 20 11:47:18 <jaem> one reason (although not currently, for me) is that one might potentially want to format most of the device as something other than vfat, in which case Windows computers can't read it
Nov 20 11:47:22 <gouverneur> s/_/?
Nov 20 11:47:38 <gouverneur> jaem: thats not true!
Nov 20 11:47:57 <jaem> RST38h, that works for a lot of those cases - scp has replaced flash keys for me for the most part, but it doesn't always work
Nov 20 11:48:07 <jaem> for one thing, my uni has blocked ssh in some of the labs
Nov 20 11:48:20 <jaem> apparently people were torrenting, tunnelled over their file server
Nov 20 11:48:22 <gouverneur> jaem: tunnel over http
Nov 20 11:48:26 <jaem> my uni has a fast pipe
Nov 20 11:48:35 <jaem> gouverneur, yeah, there are ways around it
Nov 20 11:48:41 <jaem> plus they didn't block it on all the computers
Nov 20 11:48:50 <jaem> no idea why - probably they didn't think it through
Nov 20 11:49:13 <jaem> gouverneur, and as for fs's, I meant EXT3 and friends
Nov 20 11:49:25 <gouverneur> to block ssh internal universities should be punished by some dwarf axe fighter
Nov 20 11:49:31 <jaem> and yes, I know there are drivers for Windows, but the local print shop, etc. isn't going to have that installed
Nov 20 11:49:40 <gouverneur> jaem: me to
Nov 20 11:49:46 <jaem> gouverneur, I fully agree, although they haven't blocked it in Residence
Nov 20 11:49:48 <jaem> ...yet
Nov 20 11:50:15 <jaem> there was some talk about blocking everything but ports 80 and 443, rather than actually *fixing* the horrible network issues
Nov 20 11:50:22 <jaem> of course, you know that means
Nov 20 11:50:25 <jaem> ...VPN!
Nov 20 11:50:37 <gouverneur> I just setup some new ntfs partitions to safe the games on because I had a strange feeling with speed and so while gaming from ext3
Nov 20 11:51:17 <jaem> gouverneur, if you want to know how much our Residence network fails, check out the posts at http://creativemisconfiguration.com/
Nov 20 11:52:09 <gouverneur> uuuh
Nov 20 11:52:14 <RST38h> Is that the name of your residential network? =)
Nov 20 11:52:34 <jaem> RST38h, what?
Nov 20 11:52:42 <jaem> it's the university residence
Nov 20 11:52:47 <RST38h> Creative Misconfiguration ?
Nov 20 11:52:51 <jaem> provided by a third party, under contratr
Nov 20 11:52:53 <jaem> manditory
Nov 20 11:52:55 <jaem> and full of fail
Nov 20 11:52:56 <jaem> no
Nov 20 11:53:06 <jaem> it's a domain my friend and I grabbed because it was made of Win
Nov 20 11:53:20 * RST38h wonders why a university would hire outside help for IT maintenance
Nov 20 11:53:30 <jaem> RST38h, it's not run through the university
Nov 20 11:53:40 <jaem> they don't want anything to do with Residence internet
Nov 20 11:53:55 <RST38h> University has not got enough of its own CS/IT students to manage it?
Nov 20 11:53:55 <jaem> the campus network is pretty well maintained
Nov 20 11:54:02 <jaem> oh yeah, they do
Nov 20 11:54:08 <jaem> we tried to pitch that to them a few years ago
Nov 20 11:54:11 <jaem> but they didn't go for it
Nov 20 11:54:15 <RST38h> Why waste money on outside fail then?
Nov 20 11:54:27 <jaem> the company's low on money, and Rez is just stingy
Nov 20 11:54:35 <jaem> so nobody fixes anything
Nov 20 11:54:42 <jaem> granted, it's better than it used to be
Nov 20 11:54:47 <RST38h> Using students would still cost less
Nov 20 11:55:05 <jaem> first year, we payed $30/month for what was supposed to be 1.5Mbps downstream (actually more like dial-up at peak times)
Nov 20 11:55:07 <RST38h> Students is as cheap as you can possibly go, short of managing whole network from China
Nov 20 11:55:18 <jaem> and it usually went out for about a week or so every time exams came up
Nov 20 11:55:33 <RST38h> Can't you create your own network though?
Nov 20 11:55:46 <jaem> they also did things like putting their logs on the same partition as the DHCP leases... and guess what happened... :/
Nov 20 11:56:15 <jaem> RST38h, we thought about setting up a rogue mesh :D but it would take far too much hardware, and most of the students are too apathetic to make it work
Nov 20 11:56:21 <jaem> aside from that, not much we can do
Nov 20 11:57:38 <javispedro> hiyo
Nov 20 11:57:46 <jaem> javispedro, hiya
Nov 20 11:58:01 <feri> ping _marcell_
Nov 20 11:58:32 <RST38h> jaem: You can use existing wires, just disconnect their uplink =)\
Nov 20 11:58:51 <jaem> RST38h, No Comment ;)
Nov 20 11:59:08 <jaem> the sad thing is that they probably have set things up that poorly
Nov 20 11:59:10 <jaem> or almost
Nov 20 11:59:17 <zaheerm> got iplayer stuff all parsed now in python
Nov 20 11:59:56 * javispedro searches for today's dealbreaker.... will it be "can I install harmattan on it?" 
Nov 20 12:00:31 <jaem> javispedro, "will harmattan+1 work on my Zune and sync with iTunes??!!1?"
Nov 20 12:00:41 <jaem> :P
Nov 20 12:00:51 <javispedro> well, place your bets.
Nov 20 12:01:06 <RST38h> jaem: of course it will, just apply drugs
Nov 20 12:01:23 * jaem bets 5 Internets on what javispedro said
Nov 20 12:02:37 <lardman> can dbus start an app?
Nov 20 12:02:47 <javispedro> yeah
Nov 20 12:02:52 <RST38h> yes
Nov 20 12:03:10 <javispedro> in fact dbus is the way most apps are launched when tapped on the menu
Nov 20 12:03:24 <lardman> so I could issue a maemo.org.mbarcode.found_barcode message and any app that has registered itself as interested in that will be started and passed the message?
Nov 20 12:04:15 <RST38h> Hmmm...AlmostTI is now the 2nd in terms of Maemo5 downloads
Nov 20 12:04:20 <wjt> lardman: not exactly
Nov 20 12:04:27 <lardman> am just thinking that I hate webscraping code, and that I should either spin out all the barcode uses to individual apps, or to plugins
Nov 20 12:04:30 <javispedro> lardman: well if the app is down how can it register itself as interested ;)
Nov 20 12:04:36 <wjt> lardman: you can call a method on the service org.maemo.mbarcode, and if it's not running the bus daemon will started
Nov 20 12:04:39 <lardman> javispedro: exactly my question
Nov 20 12:04:39 <wjt> s/started/start it/
Nov 20 12:04:39 <infobot> wjt meant: lardman: you can call a method on the service org.maemo.mbarcode, and if it's not running the bus daemon will start it
Nov 20 12:04:40 <jaem> RST38h, congrats!  Just downloaded it
Nov 20 12:04:52 <lardman> hmm, not quite what I want then
Nov 20 12:04:59 <wjt> infobot: go to hell!
Nov 20 12:04:59 <infobot> go to hell is, like, a song
Nov 20 12:05:08 <wjt> but applications can't randomly register to be launched when a message is sent
Nov 20 12:05:11 <javispedro> yeah, your question reminds of the palmos notification framework
Nov 20 12:05:24 <javispedro> but afaik I don't think there's anything similar on maemo right now..
Nov 20 12:05:26 * jaem awards RST38h two Internets
Nov 20 12:06:03 <lardman> well I guess said apps could call maemo.org.notify_me and tell mbarcode their dbus call, then when mbarcode has something for them it can call them?
Nov 20 12:06:14 <lardman> maemo.org.mbarcode.notify_me
Nov 20 12:06:30 <PaulFertser> lardman: that's called dbus activation i guess
Nov 20 12:06:30 <javispedro> guess so. or even add themselves to a gconf entry
Nov 20 12:06:41 <PaulFertser> lardman: the way they're started
Nov 20 12:06:47 <lardman> what would be the most usual/acceptible way to do this?
Nov 20 12:06:52 <jaem> konttori, blech... you were right when you said that package was packaged poorly :P
Nov 20 12:08:12 <javispedro> I think adding "interested" services to a gconf entry is not that bad
Nov 20 12:08:31 <lardman> I imagine dbus calls is preferable to plugins, as then something like the calendar app could listen for vcal data from a barcode
Nov 20 12:08:32 <lardman> etc
Nov 20 12:08:52 <javispedro> guess so.
Nov 20 12:09:08 <lardman> I'm open to suggestions here
Nov 20 12:09:10 <lardman> :)
Nov 20 12:10:28 <jaem> okay... what the heck
Nov 20 12:10:34 <javispedro> i assume just opening the vcal with the default registered app is not enough?
Nov 20 12:10:44 <jaem> why does the BT pairing dialog invert the functionality of the -> key?
Nov 20 12:10:50 <lardman> I'm wondering if that will work
Nov 20 12:10:51 <jaem> e.g. letters are 2nd fn
Nov 20 12:11:11 <lardman> javispedro: but yes, that will work for e.g. vCal, vCard? and URLs
Nov 20 12:11:54 <lardman> javispedro: but other apps might want to handle e.g. MMS: some of the Japanese message formats, or just random 1D EAN/UPC or random 2D datasets
Nov 20 12:13:57 <jaem> grr... apparently Maemo doesn't allow BT pairing with no key, either
Nov 20 12:14:03 <jaem> to the Bugzilla!
Nov 20 12:18:40 <lardman> so how would one try to open a vCal entry programmatically?
Nov 20 12:19:28 <lardman> some dbus call for the calendar app?
Nov 20 12:19:45 <javispedro> presumably, the file manager opens vcal files?
Nov 20 12:20:02 <lardman> yeah, I'll have to have a look at the source for that, assuming it's open
Nov 20 12:20:17 <javispedro> i'm pretty sure it's a plain dbus call
Nov 20 12:20:20 <javispedro> you can use dbus-monitor
Nov 20 12:20:26 <javispedro> or call qwerty12, he knows
Nov 20 12:20:45 <lardman> I was wondering if rather than a specific call, there was a call one can make to the handler
Nov 20 12:20:52 <lardman> or perhaps that's what it does
Nov 20 12:20:56 <lardman> I'll have to check and see
Nov 20 12:21:07 <VDVsx> jaem, it's because of the dialog context, normally the BT pin codes are numbers
Nov 20 12:21:26 <jaem> VDVsx, I figured that out, but it's not immediately obvious
Nov 20 12:22:04 <VDVsx> jaem, true, in maemo4 there's a little bar that indicates that
Nov 20 12:22:52 <jaem> VDVsx, mmhmm
Nov 20 12:23:36 <lardman> libhildonmime
Nov 20 12:24:35 <VDVsx> jaem, and the 'no pin' option is related to upstream bluez, afaik, no directly Maemo fault
Nov 20 12:25:02 <jaem> VDVsx, I don't believe so... I know I've paired the wiimote with my old laptop (a year ago), and with my N810
Nov 20 12:25:10 <jaem> and it won't pair with the N900
Nov 20 12:25:21 <konttori> jaem: yeah, I was! and I know it oh so well, but I'm still to lazy to fix it :(
Nov 20 12:25:23 <jaem> can you confirm that?
Nov 20 12:25:39 <VDVsx> jaem, that change in bluez4
Nov 20 12:25:46 <VDVsx> *changed
Nov 20 12:25:53 <jaem> konttori, well, at least remove the .DS_store from /usr/share/applications - it conflicts with another poorly packaged app
Nov 20 12:25:54 <jaem> XD
Nov 20 12:26:03 <jaem> VDVsx, changed for the worse?
Nov 20 12:26:17 <konttori> jaem: that would be the work that I would need to do, and that's what I'm too lazy to do atm
Nov 20 12:26:29 <konttori> might be a good target for the day though.
Nov 20 12:26:54 <VDVsx> jaem, they've a 'good' explanation for that, can't remember now :P
Nov 20 12:26:58 <lardman> ok, looks like the Mime stuff should be ok, and it's automatically updated from the .desktop files which is nice
Nov 20 12:27:20 <jaem> VDVsx, is that like their explanation of why they have no API documentation for the 4.x series? ;)
Nov 20 12:28:21 <VDVsx> jaem, lol, search in docs folder
Nov 20 12:28:45 <PaulFertser> jaem: they do have documentation in the sources. And they do accept patches that clarify it ;)
Nov 20 12:28:51 <jaem> VDVsx, forgive me if I asked this already (I can't remember), but are we going to see the shiny version of BlueMaemo that wazd was posting about, any time soon?
Nov 20 12:28:56 <jaem> PaulFertser, heh... fair enough
Nov 20 12:29:19 <VDVsx> jaem, a incomplete version is on the builder
Nov 20 12:29:30 <VDVsx> but the builder is stuck :(
Nov 20 12:29:40 <PaulFertser> jaem: it's just mad confusing that bluez3-specific info is all over the internet and their wiki too. But almost all important docs are there in the docs directory in the source tarball and they're understandable enough.
Nov 20 12:29:44 <jaem> VDVsx, kk... I've been waiting... it's so purty
Nov 20 12:29:58 <jaem> PaulFertser, yeah, that had me going for a while... thanks a lot for the tip
Nov 20 12:30:06 <VDVsx> jaem, I'm waiting for more art from wazd, the rest is done
Nov 20 12:30:15 <jaem> I need to get Bluetooth working for a project in short order, and was dreading it
Nov 20 12:30:43 <jaem> VDVsx, I figured I'd poke at your code to see how to do the pairing initiation and such :)
Nov 20 12:31:04 <pupnik_> nice
Nov 20 12:31:10 <VDVsx> jaem, in maemo is just a d-bus call
Nov 20 12:31:15 <jaem> VDVsx, awesome
Nov 20 12:31:24 <jaem> that will simplify things
Nov 20 12:31:26 <pupnik_> can the zeemote be integrated?
Nov 20 12:31:33 <jaem> do you have any experience with rfcomm device nodes?
Nov 20 12:31:44 <jaem> specifically, the creation of them?
Nov 20 12:31:52 <VDVsx> jaem, the api: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/bluez/
Nov 20 12:31:53 <jaem> I need to bang bits at a sensor board
Nov 20 12:31:59 <jaem> also awesome
Nov 20 12:32:04 <VDVsx> very poor indeed
Nov 20 12:32:18 <VDVsx> jaem, I sec and I'll send you the pairing stuff
Nov 20 12:32:24 <jaem> VDVsx, thanks!
Nov 20 12:32:47 <VDVsx> jaem, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Using_Connectivity_Components/Maemo_Connectivity#Bluetooth_DBUS_UI_dialogs
Nov 20 12:33:20 <VDVsx> use those d-bus calls one shows the list and the other one is a signal that sends the selected device
Nov 20 12:33:28 <jaem> nice
Nov 20 12:33:46 <jaem> I should just stay up until 4am on IRC every day
Nov 20 12:33:50 <PaulFertser> jaem: there're some good (and bad) examples is the tests directory in python.
Nov 20 12:34:04 <jaem> PaulFertser, yeah... most of the decent stuff on the net seems to be Python
Nov 20 12:34:05 <PaulFertser> jaem: (talking about bluez calls)
Nov 20 12:34:14 <VDVsx> jaem, works for maemo4 and 5
Nov 20 12:34:17 <jaem> we don't need to do much, to be honest
Nov 20 12:34:41 <jaem> just pair, create an rfcomm device node, and hand it off to the serial communication code that someone else is writing
Nov 20 12:34:46 <VDVsx> jaem, C stuff is a wat more complex
Nov 20 12:34:54 <jaem> VDVsx, I gathered that
Nov 20 12:34:58 <PaulFertser> jaem: read serial-api.txt for that
Nov 20 12:35:01 <jaem> but C is our only option for this
Nov 20 12:35:01 <VDVsx> S/wat/way/
Nov 20 12:35:04 <jaem> PaulFertser, sure
Nov 20 12:35:53 <VDVsx> jaem, here are a lot of simple C examples: http://www.btessentials.com/examples/examples.html
Nov 20 12:41:12 <jaem> VDVsx, S60 BT examples too?  Perfect
Nov 20 12:41:27 <jaem> we're planning a port, once we get the Maemo app working
Nov 20 12:41:28 <jaem> yay
Nov 20 12:42:01 <VDVsx> jaem, warning: pyS60 BT stuff is very very bad and very very broken :P
Nov 20 12:42:12 <VDVsx> personal opinion of course ^
Nov 20 12:42:23 <jaem> VDVsx, fair enough, but it may be a starting point
Nov 20 12:42:29 <jaem> we won't be using Python, in any case
Nov 20 12:42:38 <jaem> too fat for what we're doing
Nov 20 12:42:40 <VDVsx> jaem, ah, so you're safe
Nov 20 12:42:57 <jaem> *I'm* safe because I'm the Maemo guy - I won't be touching S60 :P
Nov 20 12:43:54 <jaem> RST38h, getting graphical glitches in ATI85
Nov 20 12:44:11 <jaem> when you try to click out of the "Needs ROM image" banner, it flickers like crazy
Nov 20 12:44:14 <jaem> are you aware of that one?
Nov 20 12:47:18 <VDVsx> jaem, luck you, every time I look at S60 stuff, I lose year of my live :P
Nov 20 12:47:33 <Stskeeps> oh, wow
Nov 20 12:47:42 <Stskeeps> they open sources osso-applet-screencalibration
Nov 20 12:47:51 <Stskeeps> d
Nov 20 12:48:12 <jaem> Stskeeps, woo!
Nov 20 12:48:18 <jaem> VDVsx, that's the impression I got
Nov 20 12:53:14 <jaem_n900> just because I can ;)
Nov 20 12:53:49 <PaulFertser> jaem: does n900 has a more sane (read terminal junkie-friendly) keyboard layout by default?
Nov 20 12:54:04 <jaem_n810> VDVsx, PaulFertser, thanks a lot for your help!
Nov 20 12:54:19 <jaem> PaulFertser, unfortunately, no
Nov 20 12:54:23 <jaem> arguably worse
Nov 20 12:54:39 <jaem> although that's largely because there are less keys available to remap
Nov 20 12:54:55 <VDVsx> jaem, np :)
Nov 20 12:55:03 <PaulFertser> jaem: :((( nokia customer "care" at its best
Nov 20 12:55:06 <jaem> however, the keyboard itself is so much better that typing it on it for most tasks is a reasonably pleasant experience
Nov 20 12:55:40 <jaem> PaulFertser, I would have loved a 5-row keyboard, or at least another 4-row, but given that their main target market isn't the terminal-using type, I can't fault them too much
Nov 20 12:55:45 <PaulFertser> jaem: before i actually tried n810 keyboard i thought it's better. But now i'm disappointed, the feedback is too strange.
Nov 20 12:55:48 <jaem> and it *is* a really nice keyboard
Nov 20 12:55:52 <_berto_> I find it reasonably good for the shell
Nov 20 12:55:55 <_berto_> and I do a lot of ssh
Nov 20 12:56:00 <jaem> wait, you like the N810 keyboard better?!
Nov 20 12:56:14 <jaem> the N900 took a bit of getting used to, but now I can't stand my N810's
Nov 20 12:56:14 <PaulFertser> jaem: i thought n810 keyboard is better than it actually is.
Nov 20 12:56:22 <jaem> plus I can't touch-type on it anymore :P
Nov 20 12:56:23 <jaem> ah
Nov 20 12:56:31 <jaem> well, the N900's keyboard blows it out of the water
Nov 20 12:56:34 <_berto_> I think the n900 keyboard is more pleasant to use
Nov 20 12:57:08 <jaem> my only annoyance is that they put two switches under the space key, so while it doesn't *actually* double-press, it sometimes feels like it has, and throws off my touch-typing
Nov 20 12:57:21 <jaem> also, a right-shift would have been nice
Nov 20 12:57:27 <jaem> the arrow keys are great, thoguh
Nov 20 12:57:54 <jaem> a D-Pad would have been nice, but the N900's arrow keys are a sight better than the N810's D-Pad, in general terms
Nov 20 12:58:01 <jaem> so I'll take what I can get
Nov 20 12:58:17 <PaulFertser> _berto_: on n810 i lack esc, tab, / is not convenient... Also no meta key (and esc is inconvenient)...
Nov 20 12:58:37 <jaem> that was actually my general impression of the N900 - lots of things that could have been done better/more to my liking, but still a fairly solid device, and a huge step in the right direction
Nov 20 12:58:44 <jaem> PaulFertser, give me a moment - link
Nov 20 12:58:47 <_berto_> PaulFertser: it's obviously not perfect for the shell, but it's reasonably good
Nov 20 12:58:54 <_berto_> I wouldn't expect a thinkpad keyboard on a pocket device :p
Nov 20 12:59:08 <tigert> its pretty sweet compromise
Nov 20 12:59:11 <jaem> PaulFertser, http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?s=d629f515ca9252db8a95e56d06a6f43b&p=314242&postcount=4
Nov 20 12:59:22 <jaem> I use that layout on my N810, and it's much better
Nov 20 12:59:37 <jaem> keep in mind that the "back" key is mapped to Esc
Nov 20 12:59:47 <_berto_> ah yes
Nov 20 12:59:52 <PaulFertser> jaem: lack of usb host is something that i found unacceptable. Also the price. It's so fucking much more than ~$200 you can buy a freerunner for, and freerunner is on the order of magnitude more free.
Nov 20 13:00:00 <_berto_> in the n900 it's a bit more annoying, but still ...
Nov 20 13:00:28 <jaem> PaulFertser, yeah, and I take your point, but IIRC the Freerunning is nowhere close in terms of hardware specs
Nov 20 13:00:36 <jaem> the N900 is a beautiful device
Nov 20 13:00:41 <jaem> that said, I can't afford one either
Nov 20 13:00:49 <jaem> I just have mine on extended loan from my prof :P
Nov 20 13:00:51 <jaem> lucky me
Nov 20 13:01:17 <pupnik_> nice
Nov 20 13:01:19 <jaem> while ~$600 is a lot of money, it's also not out of the way for phones of that calibre
Nov 20 13:01:24 <PaulFertser> jaem: indeed. But FR has usb host. And you can connect spi chips or whatever to it. Hackability is superior. Anyway, have a nice day, gtg :) good luck.
Nov 20 13:01:24 <jaem> and this one is better than most
Nov 20 13:01:31 <jaem> PaulFertser, true
Nov 20 13:01:33 <jaem> cheers
Nov 20 13:01:37 <pupnik_> is top of the line pocket computer for 600
Nov 20 13:01:41 <_berto_> well, I have a freerunner
Nov 20 13:01:42 <jaem> pupnik_, yeah, I'm pretty happy :)
Nov 20 13:01:43 <pupnik_> not too much!
Nov 20 13:01:53 <_berto_> and it's apples and oranges
Nov 20 13:02:00 <pupnik_> mhm
Nov 20 13:02:02 <jaem> _berto_, that's the thing
Nov 20 13:02:24 <jaem> part of me says "that's not a bad price", and the other part says "I could buy a decent desktop for half again as much"
Nov 20 13:02:34 <jaem> but you can't really compare them
Nov 20 13:02:45 <pupnik_> right, desktop is 9ps
Nov 20 13:02:47 <pupnik_> 90s
Nov 20 13:02:57 <_berto_> with the n900 i don't even feel like switching on my laptop when I get home
Nov 20 13:02:58 <jaem> pupnik_, ?
Nov 20 13:03:01 <pupnik_> space bending power in hand is 00s
Nov 20 13:03:10 <jaem> yeah, true
Nov 20 13:03:17 <jaem> I just meant in terms of raw power
Nov 20 13:03:24 <jaem> but no, the N900 is sweet
Nov 20 13:03:41 <jaem> I love being able to use it just like a laptop
Nov 20 13:03:48 <pupnik_> yup
Nov 20 13:03:57 <jaem> the N810 was nice, but deficient in some ways
Nov 20 13:04:07 <jaem> kind of like using a P III for web use
Nov 20 13:04:07 <pupnik_> i notice youtube is comparatively fast vs other flash video sites...
Nov 20 13:04:12 <jaem> doable, but not fun
Nov 20 13:04:22 <jaem> and not always usable for everything
Nov 20 13:04:34 <jaem> the N900 is much more like I'd hoped when I first bought the N810
Nov 20 13:04:48 <jaem> pupnik_, yeah, but the player buttons aren't as responsive as I'd like
Nov 20 13:05:05 <jaem> also, microB/Maemo Browser has some rough edges
Nov 20 13:05:13 <jaem> case in point, the Addons dialog
Nov 20 13:05:34 <pupnik_> maybe we can somehow end bloated websites with the new gen portables
Nov 20 13:05:51 <jaem> oops
Nov 20 13:05:59 * jaem left the milk out downstairs :O
Nov 20 13:06:16 <jaem> too bad I'll have to leave the compu--- ...oh wait :P
Nov 20 13:06:26 <pupnik_> id like those different unneeded blocks, tags, regions
Nov 20 13:06:38 <pupnik_> to be inactive memort and cpuwise
Nov 20 13:06:42 <pupnik_> heh jaem
Nov 20 13:06:50 <jaem_n810> ping
Nov 20 13:06:55 <jaem_n900> ping
Nov 20 13:07:08 <jaem_n900> -grin-
Nov 20 13:09:14 <tigert> real men use screen and irssi to avoid duplicate irc presence ;)
Nov 20 13:09:29 <jaem_n900> tigert, yeah I know
Nov 20 13:09:36 <jaem_n900> I keep meaning to learn irssi
Nov 20 13:09:48 <jaem_n900> but it's a bit awkward on the N90's kbd
Nov 20 13:10:04 <tigert> the terminal on n900 + openssh is one killer app for lots of things
Nov 20 13:10:10 <jaem_n900> indeed
Nov 20 13:10:23 <jaem_n900> but all the shortcuts in irssi get a bit painfil
Nov 20 13:10:31 <jaem_n900> I presume you can remap them?
Nov 20 13:10:56 <Jaffa> tigert: Is there a magic way of getting irssi to do nick highlighting wherever your nick appears in text, rather than just '^jaffa: '?
Nov 20 13:13:13 <Nitial> simply /hilight jaffa
Nov 20 13:13:26 <Nitial> you need options to make it match only the nick ;)
Nov 20 13:13:43 <Jaffa> Nitial: And is that persistent? (Not that I restart it often, but...)
Nov 20 13:13:44 <tigert> "^jaffa:" does look like a regexp ;)
Nov 20 13:13:54 <tigert> which matches beginning of line + your nick + colon
Nov 20 13:14:04 <Jaffa> tigert: Yes, because that's the behaviour I see OOtB
Nov 20 13:14:10 <tigert> yeah
Nov 20 13:14:16 <Nitial> save your config
Nov 20 13:14:38 <Jaffa> '/save' seemed to do that.
Nov 20 13:14:38 <Jaffa> ta
Nov 20 13:14:46 <tigert> yea default hilight is ^$nick: I guess
Nov 20 13:15:05 <tigert>  /layout save saves your windows and query windows and stuff
Nov 20 13:15:16 <tigert>  /save saves config
Nov 20 13:16:07 <lardman> hmm, when did javispedro vanish?
Nov 20 13:25:32 <AndrewFBlack> Is it just me or is there no way to rename a fil on Maemo5 using file manager?
Nov 20 13:26:45 <jaem_n900> andr
Nov 20 13:26:59 <jaem_n810> AndrewFBlack, click and hold
Nov 20 13:27:05 <Jaffa> AndrewFBlack: Tap & hold? There's a menu, but I dunno if it includes "Rename"
Nov 20 13:27:05 <kalikiana> AndrewFBlack, in the context menu
Nov 20 13:27:07 <jaem_n810> yep
Nov 20 13:27:53 <AndrewFBlack> ok didn't know about that menu I been using regular memu for move and delete so far
Nov 20 13:28:07 <AndrewFBlack> I knew they hadn't removed rename file lol
Nov 20 13:28:55 <pupnik_> where do i see n900 cpu speed
Nov 20 13:29:13 <kirma> "see" ?
Nov 20 13:29:19 <pupnik_> read
Nov 20 13:29:22 <pupnik_> numbers
Nov 20 13:29:26 <range> Can't you feel it? :)
Nov 20 13:29:28 <kalikiana> throw it across the room and see how fast it goes :)
Nov 20 13:29:38 <kirma> powertop on console maybe
Nov 20 13:29:54 <range> Probably somewhere in /sys/ as I don't think that you'll have /proc/acpi on that system.
Nov 20 13:30:10 <bleader> no /proc/cpuinfo ?
Nov 20 13:30:42 <bleader> (Haven't a maemo device yet, sorry if this is obviously wrong to everybody :p)
Nov 20 13:30:51 <range> /sys/devices/system/cpu maybe.
Nov 20 13:31:38 <kalikiana> /proc/cpuinfo is there
Nov 20 13:32:07 <pupnik_> bogomips is 1:1 mhz?
Nov 20 13:32:21 <bleader> pupnik_: tends to be 2:1MHz on non x86 arch
Nov 20 13:32:25 <bleader> from what I've seen
Nov 20 13:32:48 <pupnik_> reporting 249.96 bogomips atm
Nov 20 13:33:14 <range> pupnik_: No, bogomips is bogo.
Nov 20 13:33:16 <pupnik_> opÃen shell, 4 progs in bg
Nov 20 13:33:33 <bleader> cat /dev/zero > /dev/null
Nov 20 13:33:41 <range> You can really (no not even then) only compare same CPUs against each other with that.
Nov 20 13:33:51 <range> And I don't think the bogomips value gets updated.
Nov 20 13:34:05 <bleader> true
Nov 20 13:34:18 <range> cpu MHz might if in cpuinfo :)
Nov 20 13:37:25 <pupnik_> i looked through all of /proc
Nov 20 13:37:44 <pupnik_> i mean sys
Nov 20 13:37:50 <pupnik_> tryin proc now
Nov 20 13:38:29 <RST38h> moo pupnik
Nov 20 13:38:33 <pupnik_> hi
Nov 20 13:38:59 <pupnik_> nm
Nov 20 13:41:04 <javispedro> Ovi Store's policy is today's dealbreaker. With nearly 10 pages worth of posts today, definitely.
Nov 20 13:41:58 <jaem> javispedro, aw... I lost
Nov 20 13:42:06 * jaem gives javispedro the 5 Internets he bet
Nov 20 13:42:29 <jaem> I actually have a textbook with the word "Internets" in its title
Nov 20 13:42:38 <jaem> although it's using the word correctly, and not as a Bushism
Nov 20 13:42:42 <jaem> heh
Nov 20 13:43:51 <jaem> well, goodnight folks
Nov 20 13:43:56 <jaem> or... well... morning, now
Nov 20 13:43:57 <jaem> >_<
Nov 20 13:44:28 <javispedro> good night in irc local time
Nov 20 13:44:34 <jaem> UGT? :P
Nov 20 13:44:45 <javispedro> that.
Nov 20 13:46:15 <Anpr> heya, any news about n900 in uk ?
Nov 20 13:46:39 <bleader> play.com still list it for 30th
Nov 20 13:47:05 <Anpr> heh
Nov 20 13:47:43 <Anpr> i hear some rumour that it will be in flagship shop in london today
Nov 20 13:47:46 <Anpr> heard
Nov 20 13:48:04 <bleader> yeah I read this too somewhere
Nov 20 13:49:22 <Lorthirk> great, my n900 is on its way :D
Nov 20 13:49:32 <bleader> it's shown as ready to be sent on french nokia website, haven't check the uk one lately
Nov 20 13:49:36 <Anpr> Lorthirk are u from uk  ? :)
Nov 20 13:49:46 <Lorthirk> no Anpr, sorry... i'm from italy
Nov 20 13:49:51 <Anpr> :)
Nov 20 13:50:07 <Anpr> anyway it's cool, because something's going
Nov 20 13:50:25 <Lorthirk> of course
Nov 20 13:50:31 * SpeedEvil wonders why italy gets it before UK.
Nov 20 13:50:44 * Anpr wonders as well
Nov 20 13:50:48 <Lorthirk> i read across some italian forums, people has its credit cards billed
Nov 20 13:51:02 * Lorthirk wonders too, since usually Italy lags behind any others
Nov 20 13:51:03 <SpeedEvil> nokia.co.uk store says 'week beginning 32nd november.
Nov 20 13:51:05 <SpeedEvil> err
Nov 20 13:51:07 <SpeedEvil> 23rd
Nov 20 13:51:12 <bleader> Lorthirk: was it a pre-order ?
Nov 20 13:51:17 <Lorthirk> no bleader
Nov 20 13:51:19 <Anpr> so brithish people do, believe me :D
Nov 20 13:51:35 <Lorthirk> ordered it today
Nov 20 13:51:47 <bleader> on nokia's website ?
Nov 20 13:52:02 <pupnik_> openarena is great, suggest auto-aim in y-axis only!!
Nov 20 13:52:14 <Lorthirk> yep
Nov 20 13:52:15 <pupnik_> also allow player to quit game!
Nov 20 13:52:20 <Lorthirk> with a gorgeous 20% off
Nov 20 13:52:38 <pupnik_> no tax?
Nov 20 13:53:10 <bleader> Lorthirk: what's the original price in italy ?
Nov 20 13:53:13 <Lorthirk> no, i had a coupon code
Nov 20 13:53:27 <Lorthirk> 599 but everyone's ordering it with a coupon code
Nov 20 13:53:34 <lardman|home> where's the dbus maestro qwerty?
Nov 20 13:53:39 <Lorthirk> so i got it for 494 express shipping included
Nov 20 13:54:20 <bleader> Lorthirk: ok, thanks, it's 50 more in france... and I don't have a coupon, so I have to pay 649 euros if I want to order it now...
Nov 20 13:54:23 <Lorthirk> honestly i think it's a f'n great deal :D
Nov 20 13:54:39 <Lorthirk> different prices among europe?
Nov 20 13:54:42 <Lorthirk> that's weird :\
Nov 20 13:54:44 <bleader> nop, only france
Nov 20 13:54:49 <bleader> taxes and so on
Nov 20 13:54:51 <Lorthirk> that's even more weird
Nov 20 13:54:52 <bleader> yeah france !
Nov 20 13:54:52 <javispedro> RST38h: did you order the DDP one after all?
Nov 20 13:54:55 <Lorthirk> oh, ok
Nov 20 13:55:09 <Lorthirk> my iphone is starting to cry
Nov 20 13:55:17 <Lorthirk> he knows he'll be replaced soon!
Nov 20 13:55:19 <RST38h> javis: I did, a few weeks ago
Nov 20 13:55:19 <bleader> That's why I lurking on play.com :) (and I would rather get a qwerty keyboard)
Nov 20 13:55:21 * Lorthirk mwahahahah
Nov 20 13:55:33 <RST38h> javis: They took money from my bank account, then apparently put it back
Nov 20 13:55:42 <RST38h> javis: $370 it was, I think
Nov 20 13:55:52 <javispedro> RST38h: and that's why I am considering ordering it now :D
Nov 20 13:56:08 <RST38h> javis: You may end up buying two this way ;)))
Nov 20 13:56:27 <RST38h> javis: I would just keep watching the tmo thread for now
Nov 20 13:56:28 <javispedro> RST38h: no, no, ordering it throught the ddp
Nov 20 13:56:36 <javispedro> I've not done it yet.
Nov 20 13:56:48 <RST38h> javis: Oh you have not ordered it through DDP yet? I guess it will not be bad to order
Nov 20 13:56:55 <lardman|home> javispedro: sorry I missed your pm
Nov 20 13:57:22 <javispedro> lardman: np, don't worry.
Nov 20 13:57:35 * javispedro goes to FN
Nov 20 13:57:57 <Anpr> now i wonder how do u get this coupon, Lorthirk ?
Nov 20 14:13:35 <lardman|home> anyone got a link to how to open an URL using C dbus calls for Diablo?
Nov 20 14:16:00 <Lorthirk> Anprrr i read it on a forum, it seems it's a sort of "if you order something in november, your next order has 20% off"
Nov 20 14:17:05 <RST38h> lardman: You want the Tear thread on tmo, it is there
Nov 20 14:17:18 <VDVsx> wazd, ping
Nov 20 14:18:54 <Stskeeps> not bad at 480$ n900 on amazon
Nov 20 14:20:03 <RST38h> it is quickly getting into the same range as discount
Nov 20 14:20:10 <RST38h> (DDP discount I mean)
Nov 20 14:20:59 <javispedro> yeah, and they have warranty.
Nov 20 14:22:09 <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure selling without warranty is actually legal in much of the EU
Nov 20 14:22:29 <gouverneur> Stskeeps: over here it doesnt get lower than $735.56 yet
Nov 20 14:22:29 <lardman|home> RST38h: thanks will take a look
Nov 20 14:22:44 <gouverneur> what was discount for US?
Nov 20 14:24:49 <hrw> SpeedEvil: DDP ones have warranty. but for one week
Nov 20 14:25:05 <Khertan> hrw: lol
Nov 20 14:25:29 <hrw> anyway they look like vaporware
Nov 20 14:25:58 <Khertan> i'm not sure that they can do that in Europe ... as waranty must be more than 1 year for any product ... and with rebates too
Nov 20 14:26:07 <SpeedEvil> hrw: yes - that's not actually legal
Nov 20 14:26:07 <javispedro> yeah, you have a point.
Nov 20 14:26:15 <SpeedEvil> (AIUI)
Nov 20 14:26:30 <SpeedEvil> Even the cooling off period for distance transactions in the UK is longer than that.
Nov 20 14:26:35 <javispedro> IANAL ;)
Nov 20 14:29:51 <Stskeeps> i'd say DDP may be under another type of contract than typical retail though
Nov 20 14:29:55 <viq> DDP ?
Nov 20 14:30:55 <javispedro> retail is retail -- im an individual.
Nov 20 14:31:14 <Stskeeps> javispedro: i think some screwup may happen from the fact they're trying out b2b stuff for individuals..
Nov 20 14:31:18 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 20 14:31:27 <Stskeeps> the whole not charging VAT is weird too :P
Nov 20 14:31:30 <javispedro> that's already happening.
Nov 20 14:31:31 <javispedro> yes.
Nov 20 14:31:41 <Stskeeps> i mean, it makes sense b2b.
Nov 20 14:31:48 <Stskeeps> but to individuals it doesn't
Nov 20 14:31:48 <qwerty12> Stskeeps: Shh! They were trying to keep that quiet...
Nov 20 14:31:55 <Stskeeps> mm
Nov 20 14:31:56 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 20 14:33:37 <lardman|home> RST38h: should I be looking further than the Tear-specific dbus call?
Nov 20 14:34:03 <lardman|home> I hope so
Nov 20 14:34:17 <javispedro> lardman: you have to do it through dbus? there's another method.
Nov 20 14:34:29 <qwerty12> lardman|home: If it's a file: hildon-mime
Nov 20 14:34:44 <lardman|home> no, I have an URL
Nov 20 14:34:52 <lardman|home> yeah there's the osso stuff isn't there
Nov 20 14:35:17 <javispedro> hildon_uri_open and the like
Nov 20 14:35:56 <lardman|home> that works on Diablo?
Nov 20 14:36:01 <javispedro> yeah
Nov 20 14:36:11 <lardman|home> any docs for that?
Nov 20 14:36:24 <javispedro> I'd guess so.
Nov 20 14:36:25 <javispedro> https://git.maemo.org/projects/drnoksnes/?p=drnoksnes;a=blob_plain;f=gui/about.c;hb=HEAD
Nov 20 14:36:35 <javispedro> check the cb_url_response function.
Nov 20 14:37:01 * javispedro must have copied that from somewhere since there's a unused gerror there.
Nov 20 14:37:21 <lardman|home> the wonders of the underdocuemented hildon-mime lib
Nov 20 14:38:41 <lardman|home> qwerty12: what do you know about opening using MIME when the data is in memory?
Nov 20 14:38:56 <qwerty12> I don't?
Nov 20 14:39:26 <lardman|home> oh, shame
Nov 20 14:39:48 <lardman|home> e.g. I'd like to get the default handler to handle my vCard or iCal data
Nov 20 14:39:50 <lardman|home> etc
Nov 20 14:40:51 <qwerty12> hildon_mime_open_file() works when you give it a path to a file...
Nov 20 14:41:16 <javispedro> I guess you'll have to write to /tmp
Nov 20 14:41:22 <javispedro> like Modest, doesn't it?
Nov 20 14:41:31 <gouverneur> viq: DDP = Developer Device Program
Nov 20 14:41:36 <lardman|home> fair enough
Nov 20 14:42:07 <viq> gouverneur: thank you
Nov 20 14:42:28 <kalikiana> lardman|home, I think you can use GIO for that
Nov 20 14:42:39 <lardman|home> GIO?
Nov 20 14:42:54 <javispedro> GIO is fremantle only
Nov 20 14:43:12 <qwerty12> kalikiana: Oh, BTW, thank you. You have no idea how long I've wished for a dpkg hook that did gtk-update-icon-cache =)
Nov 20 14:43:13 <gouverneur> german nokia.de announces special deals at the online showroom for Nov. 24th, maybe there is a N900 special available, they did it with the n97, a few days after release there was a special offer available
Nov 20 14:43:21 <lardman|home> http://www.giostockings.com/ ?
Nov 20 14:43:30 <lardman|home> first hit on Google...
Nov 20 14:43:57 <javispedro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIO_(GNOME)
Nov 20 14:44:15 <kalikiana> lardman|home, I was more thinking of g_app_info_get_default_for_type
Nov 20 14:44:30 <lardman|home> more likely this I guess? ;) http://library.gnome.org/devel/gio/stable/
Nov 20 14:44:58 <kalikiana> qwerty12, I only learned about that feature recently, but it's quite nice :)
Nov 20 14:45:18 <kalikiana> lardman|home, yes, that's it
Nov 20 14:46:57 <lardman|home> hmm, so my uri could be a string containing the vcard info then?
Nov 20 14:47:33 <lardman|home> depends if vcard: is handled I guess
Nov 20 14:48:58 <kalikiana> lardman|home, no, you would just query the right application for it
Nov 20 14:49:13 <kalikiana> unless that application is able to use data:// uris
Nov 20 14:49:28 <lardman|home> kalikiana: hmm, so won't add anything over and above using the mime fns then?
Nov 20 14:49:39 <lopz> hi ;/
Nov 20 14:49:59 <kalikiana> well, hildon_mime doesn't have a way to tell you which application handles what
Nov 20 14:50:04 <kalikiana> so it does add something
Nov 20 14:50:10 <lardman|home> ah I see
Nov 20 14:50:25 <lardman|home> I don't care about the app though, I just want the data handled by whatever is the default
Nov 20 14:50:36 <kalikiana> then write it to a file in /temp
Nov 20 14:51:13 <Venomrush> 3 USIM issue is now fixed it seems.
Nov 20 14:51:20 <Venomrush> in v2.2009.47-20
Nov 20 14:52:00 <hrw> Venomrush: and .47-20 will be available in 2010?
Nov 20 14:52:17 <hrw> like it was with n810 bootloader fix when users had to wait months
Nov 20 14:53:08 <Venomrush> hrw, not sure mate
Nov 20 14:53:25 <Venomrush> do you need any specific permission to gain access to testing firwmares?
Nov 20 14:53:45 <Venomrush> i can't find this information anywhere
Nov 20 14:54:38 <Andy80> hi all
Nov 20 14:54:51 <hrw> Venomrush: no idea about permissions. but that does not matter for me yet
Nov 20 14:55:15 <Andy80> a friend of mine tried to register to maemo.org, he cannot receive the confirmation email so he cannot login and register for the Maemo Barcelona event... how can we solve this?
Nov 20 14:55:21 <Venomrush> well rather than someone posting out the sim cards to test
Nov 20 14:55:35 <Venomrush> wouldn't it be better to upload it somewhere private for testers
Nov 20 14:55:43 <Venomrush> to confirm and verify the issue
Nov 20 14:55:49 <pupnik_> ahhh chopin
Nov 20 14:56:05 <Venomrush> Andy80, register with different username + email is the quickiest way
Nov 20 14:57:26 <VDVsx> Andy80, it usually takes some time (maemo.org registration)
Nov 20 14:58:07 <VDVsx> or probably the confirmation email end up in the spam folder
Nov 20 14:59:07 <hrw> Andy80: and maemo.org is not so fast
Nov 20 14:59:13 <Andy80> already checked spam...
Nov 20 15:03:26 <RST38h> Venomrush: I think you should take your helpful idea directly to Quim Gil
Nov 20 15:03:37 <RST38h> Surely, he will be delighted to hear about it
Nov 20 15:04:00 * RST38h cackles
Nov 20 15:05:01 <Venomrush> what's the best way to contact him
Nov 20 15:05:15 <RST38h> Why, by email of course
Nov 20 15:05:51 <Venomrush> I don't have his email
Nov 20 15:06:10 <RST38h> Should I teach you how to locate it?
Nov 20 15:06:39 <Andy80> Venomrush: I sent him a travelling pigeoun once, but the poor animal died because of too cold, before landing to Helsinki :\
Nov 20 15:06:42 * qwerty12 sits down for Cyberstalking 101, by RST38h 
Nov 20 15:06:50 <Stskeeps> Venomrush: testing fws are normally under NDA and you need some degree of contractual relationship with nokia to get them
Nov 20 15:07:18 <RST38h> Stskeeps: You are spoiling all the fun
Nov 20 15:07:46 <Venomrush> Stskeeps, that destroys the point of open source OS
Nov 20 15:07:57 <Stskeeps> Venomrush: meh, open source..
Nov 20 15:07:59 <RST38h> Venomrush: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=quim+gil+email
Nov 20 15:08:00 <Stskeeps> Venomrush: it's a valid problematique though, why couldn't testing fw's technically be public
Nov 20 15:08:10 <qwerty12> RST38h: Your class sucks
Nov 20 15:08:31 <RST38h> qwerty: But, incredibly, it finds the needed email =)
Nov 20 15:08:40 <Stskeeps> (besides a pandoras box of gpl problems to provide source for every single one..)
Nov 20 15:09:02 <Venomrush> it didn't..
Nov 20 15:09:09 <RST38h> really?
Nov 20 15:09:22 <lardman> re
Nov 20 15:09:48 <RST38h> Venomrush: The very first link is titled "Mailing List Archive: Maemo: quim.gil at nokia"
Nov 20 15:10:33 <ccooke> ... Hmm. I wonder how badly Dwarf Fortress would run on the n900 :-)
Nov 20 15:10:52 <ccooke> (Leaving aside the fact that it's clossed source and x86 only for now)
Nov 20 15:11:05 <Venomrush> ah cool
Nov 20 15:11:11 <Venomrush> thought it was a mailing list from him
Nov 20 15:11:23 <hrw> Venomrush: testing firmwares can for example brick totally device in a way which will require JTAG access. do you have 1.8V jtag at home and know where to connect it in n900?
Nov 20 15:11:23 <RST38h> ccooke: Wait. Somebody finally made a decent 3D roguelike?
Nov 20 15:11:33 * javispedro 's been billed by ddp
Nov 20 15:11:39 <ccooke> RST38h: you've not heard of Dwarf Fortress?
Nov 20 15:11:43 <javispedro> ah sigh.
Nov 20 15:11:44 <RST38h> Nope
Nov 20 15:11:50 * RST38h is dull, as you all know
Nov 20 15:11:50 <suihkulokki> RST38h: it is called WoW
Nov 20 15:12:05 <suihkulokki> oh, wait, that is 3D MUD
Nov 20 15:12:07 <hrw> javispedro: billed as 'got cash grabbed from card not just reserved/blocked'?
Nov 20 15:12:07 <RST38h> suihkulokki: WoW is some kind of drugs, afaik
Nov 20 15:12:19 <Venomrush> i wuoldn't mind buying the toolkit if it was available
Nov 20 15:12:22 <ccooke> RST38h: Go read the story of Boatmurdered (which is old, from before DF became 3d... but *funny*)
Nov 20 15:12:26 <javispedro> hrw: just reserved afai see.
Nov 20 15:12:53 * suihkulokki wonders why there is seemingly so little free/OSS opengl es code around
Nov 20 15:13:03 <hrw> javispedro: thats normal. mine is at that state since 10 Nov
Nov 20 15:13:08 <kirma> nice. my N900 delivery is in exception state in rotterdam...
Nov 20 15:13:15 <muep__> there aren't many free opengl es implementations around
Nov 20 15:13:21 <suihkulokki> 2.0 variant especially
Nov 20 15:13:34 <ccooke> Dwarf Fortress is the most scarily complete simulation game I have ever heard of. It's under heavy and active development, uses text mode in opengl and isn't particularly easy to learn. It's also pretty hard, but *seriously* well made.
Nov 20 15:13:52 <Stskeeps> suihkulokki: one problematique could be that it evolved from copyrighted example code.. or the fact not many people have encountered gles2 on 'sane' systems :P
Nov 20 15:13:57 <hrw> ccooke: but also it is closed and x86 only
Nov 20 15:14:03 <ccooke> hrw: yes.
Nov 20 15:14:09 <RST38h> suihkulokki: Most desktop people use OpenGL
Nov 20 15:14:27 <ccooke> hrw: however, I'm considering using it over the network with X :-)
Nov 20 15:14:30 <javispedro> hrw: yeah, I was hoping they wouldn't do it seeing recent news.
Nov 20 15:15:03 <javispedro> not much hw using oglesv2.0 on the wild.
Nov 20 15:15:17 <hrw> ccooke: that does not change situation. I do not have x86 with good, fast opengl
Nov 20 15:15:18 <javispedro> iphone 3gs --> nobody uses it since it breaks apple dream's of backwards compatibility
Nov 20 15:15:40 <hrw> ccooke: and my x86-64 may lack opengl 32bit libs
Nov 20 15:15:40 <javispedro> pandora --> not released
Nov 20 15:16:02 <RST38h> javis: There is Symbian
Nov 20 15:16:14 <javispedro> RST38h: does anybody code for symbian? ;)
Nov 20 15:16:33 <adeus> only the mad ones
Nov 20 15:16:35 <RST38h> Dwarf Fortress available for the Mac...hm
Nov 20 15:16:40 * RST38h laughs satanically
Nov 20 15:16:57 <ccooke> hrw: ah, yes. http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/System_requirements
Nov 20 15:17:05 <RST38h> javis: [politely] yea, some people do...
Nov 20 15:21:26 <suihkulokki> javispedro: ah, I thought iphone had gles2 already in the 3g model
Nov 20 15:21:54 <javispedro> well, gles2 is a feature of the SoC not of the baseband.
Nov 20 15:22:33 <suihkulokki> re pandora, did they port any cool game yet we should steal^Wshare from them to extras?
Nov 20 15:22:58 <hrw> suihkulokki: quake1/2? or they are alreaady present?
Nov 20 15:23:19 <javispedro> RST38h: guess you're right, basically symbian was one of the  first platforms with v2
Nov 20 15:23:27 <RST38h> Actually, baseband chip is also a SoC
Nov 20 15:23:40 <RST38h> Just a smaller and slower one
Nov 20 15:23:40 <suihkulokki> hrw: Q3A
Nov 20 15:25:45 <Venomrush> firefox just crashed on me
Nov 20 15:25:56 <Stskeeps> get a real irc client by now :P
Nov 20 15:27:06 <Venomrush> hmm nah i prefer to use browser intergrated IRC  :p
Nov 20 15:27:12 <Venomrush> it seems Opera one is the best
Nov 20 15:34:59 <hrw> suihkulokki: in OpenEmbedded we have ioquake3, quake3-pandora-gles
Nov 20 15:50:46 <iDialekt> Hi
Nov 20 15:54:34 <Stskeeps> lardman: ping
Nov 20 16:04:00 <Stskeeps> lardman: mail for you
Nov 20 16:08:21 <lardman> Stskeeps: got it, thanks
Nov 20 16:08:25 <lardman> Stskeeps: has it changed?
Nov 20 16:08:38 <Stskeeps> i didn't have great success but please test on your end
Nov 20 16:08:46 <lardman> will do
Nov 20 16:08:52 <Stskeeps> i don't believe in my own setups after i opened my n810 so
Nov 20 16:08:52 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 20 16:09:03 <t_s_o> hmm, linux has spotty hardware support? http://www.infoworld.com/d/cloud-computing/why-chrome-os-will-fail-big-time-287
Nov 20 16:09:49 <logics> http://www.infoworld.com/d/cloud-computing/why-chrome-os-will-fail-big-time-287
Nov 20 16:09:58 <t_s_o> :P
Nov 20 16:10:03 <logics> oops; "click to select" instead "clicked to paste" :)
Nov 20 16:10:08 <wazd> Reheya all
Nov 20 16:10:31 * qwerty12 waves at wazd
Nov 20 16:11:28 <zash> History repeats itself, it's the second comming of centralized computing and thinn clients!
Nov 20 16:11:49 <mgedmin> only second?
Nov 20 16:12:11 <suihkulokki> t_s_o: I get a big windows ad when cliking on that. makes wonder who paid for the article :P
Nov 20 16:12:11 <lardman> how are mime types for random files determined?
Nov 20 16:12:20 <t_s_o> zash: i suspect the reason why the first one failed, was that one could not have a always on connection to multiple systems
Nov 20 16:12:35 <t_s_o> suihkulokki: did not see that, but then i have noscript installed...
Nov 20 16:12:36 <lardman> suihkulokki: same here :D
Nov 20 16:13:04 * suihkulokki clicks on the ad to move more money away from redmond
Nov 20 16:13:04 <zash> t_s_o: and/or that computers became cheep enouch so everyone could have one
Nov 20 16:13:17 <SpeedEvil> zash: At least third
Nov 20 16:13:17 <wazd> Somebody wrote me something
Nov 20 16:13:18 <SpeedEvil> zash: Dumb serial terminals - X terminals
Nov 20 16:13:18 <wazd> A while ago)
Nov 20 16:13:23 <SpeedEvil> Maybe fourth.
Nov 20 16:13:37 <t_s_o> zash: and good enough to run the then interesting apps, like spreadsheets ;)
Nov 20 16:13:43 <SpeedEvil> Batch services where you submitted your program for running on the central computer from a desktop cardpunch
Nov 20 16:14:32 <t_s_o> i would say that the x terminals basically built on the older telnet/serial terminals, giving them a gui layer...
Nov 20 16:16:25 <lardman> hmm, are there standard libraries which will handle things like mmsto: or vcard: or ical: ?
Nov 20 16:16:31 <lardman> as a URI sort of thing?
Nov 20 16:17:31 <wazd> qwerty12: how's it going with transmission?)
Nov 20 16:18:41 <qwerty12> wazd: It's not, ATM - gonna look on the weekend :\
Nov 20 16:19:30 <wazd> qwerty12: you're gonna be punished! I'm calling Roman :D
Nov 20 16:19:35 * lardman heads for home to do some mbarcode coding
Nov 20 16:19:52 <qwerty12> wazd: NOOOO!!! :p
Nov 20 16:21:53 <Shapeshifter> gouverneur: I'm from switzerland.
Nov 20 16:23:34 <wazd> qwerty12: we'll see your behavoiur after 24 hours of balalayka music!
Nov 20 16:23:50 <qwerty12> letmeoutletmeoutletmeout
Nov 20 16:24:34 <VDVsx> -testing is down again ? :(
Nov 20 16:25:12 <mmatth> anybody having problems in sbox with gdb crashing when it is reading symbols for libQtGui.so.4 ?
Nov 20 16:26:07 <VDVsx> mmatth, the default one is kinda broken
Nov 20 16:26:19 <pupnik_> should we even bother filing bugs we can't repeat?
Nov 20 16:26:25 <VDVsx> try to compile and use 0.7 version
Nov 20 16:27:25 <pupnik_> somehow i prefer talking direct to software authors
Nov 20 16:27:37 <VDVsx> S/0.7/7.0/
Nov 20 16:27:39 <mmatth> still feeling my way around with open-source, i should compile & install 0.7 version of gdb?  can you give me a quick tip on where to find the source for the 0.7 version?
Nov 20 16:27:58 <adeus> 7.0 indeed
Nov 20 16:28:05 <adeus> 0.7 is quite old :)
Nov 20 16:28:06 <pupnik_> apt-get source
Nov 20 16:28:22 <VDVsx> adeus, eheh
Nov 20 16:28:28 <pupnik_> if you can't pull in binaries, grab source from debian
Nov 20 16:28:33 <pupnik_> is what i did
Nov 20 16:28:35 <adeus> even the default one hasn't crashed on me though
Nov 20 16:28:55 <mmatth> thanks
Nov 20 16:29:04 <jaska> 0.7 would be over 23 years old
Nov 20 16:29:13 <VDVsx> adeus, I've seen a lot of ppl complaining about it
Nov 20 16:30:04 <Klowner> hmm, amazon changed the price again?
Nov 20 16:30:21 <gouverneur> Shapeshifter: where? aunt is in Berner Oberland and mum  Oberer Zurisee
Nov 20 16:30:31 <Khertan> no voluntary to port to fremantle a git version which work with garage ?
Nov 20 16:30:36 <pupnik_> oh a real keyboard is such a luxury after a day of thumbs
Nov 20 16:31:16 <Shapeshifter> gouverneur: zürcher oberland ;)
Nov 20 16:31:23 <VDVsx> mmatth, adeus , from the wiki: "Note: Fremantle X86 Gdb crashes. Using gdb 7.0 is recommended. "
Nov 20 16:31:42 <VDVsx> http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt^
Nov 20 16:31:45 <adeus> I've managed to dodge the bullets hen
Nov 20 16:31:47 <adeus> then
Nov 20 16:32:06 <adeus> ..and used the harmattan repos recently :P
Nov 20 16:32:58 <adeus> someone should port valgrind for arm
Nov 20 16:33:19 <gouverneur> Shapeshifter: ;)
Nov 20 16:36:34 <pupnik_> 42-11 "Call With Skype" yields "Incorrect Address" even with a + at beginning of number
Nov 20 16:39:09 <ccooke> pupnik_: have you enabled calling phones?
Nov 20 16:39:23 <ccooke> settings / im and voip accounts / your skyp account / settings
Nov 20 16:39:52 <pupnik_> oh not that i recall
Nov 20 16:40:16 <pupnik_> skype says enabled
Nov 20 16:40:32 <ccooke> right, that's a bug then :-)
Nov 20 16:40:56 <pupnik_> ah enable calling phones is enabled
Nov 20 16:41:01 <pupnik_> dint see that ty
Nov 20 16:41:32 <pupnik_> maybe my free calls arent activated
Nov 20 16:42:53 <pupnik_> summit world package appears active
Nov 20 16:44:06 <pupnik_> either bug or bad err message
Nov 20 16:44:08 <pupnik_> tz
Nov 20 16:44:20 <lardman> re
Nov 20 16:50:42 * GeneralAntilles sighs at DDP.
Nov 20 16:51:03 * GeneralAntilles wonders if Nokia realizes treating contributors like crap is not a good way to encourage future contribution.
Nov 20 16:51:24 <derf> GA: I doubt they realize they're treating them like crap.
Nov 20 16:51:30 <lardman> very very odd, mbarcode on diablo now looks hildonised
Nov 20 16:51:47 <derf> lardman: Oh, so it works on Diablo now?
Nov 20 16:52:23 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: well, at least it seems like the DDP experiment with community people didn't work out well so far :P
Nov 20 16:52:51 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, unfortunately we seem to be  loosing a lot of good people in the process.
Nov 20 16:52:53 <lardman> derf: yeah sorry been busy decorating
Nov 20 16:53:04 <lardman> derf: but yes, just testing the url open code now
Nov 20 16:53:05 <derf> No worries, I've been pretty busy also.
Nov 20 16:53:28 <lardman> I want to spin off all the data handling to other apps, as I hate writing webscraper code
Nov 20 16:53:37 <kirma> GeneralAntilles: maybe Nokia is trying to compete with Apple
Nov 20 16:53:39 <derf> I don't blame you.
Nov 20 16:53:51 <lardman> plus then I might get a chance to look at the libdmtx code, which is far too slow for my liking
Nov 20 16:54:41 <GeneralAntilles> kirma, hey, Apple just replaced my 5-year-old G5 with a brand new Mac Pro.
Nov 20 16:55:22 <lardman> and you were still bitching iirc ;)
Nov 20 16:55:47 <GeneralAntilles> Sure, because it was a pain in the ass, but at least I knew whether I was getting a warranty with it. ;)
Nov 20 16:56:01 <lardman> I know, just pulling your leg
Nov 20 16:56:25 <GeneralAntilles> Anyway, what Apple does isn't really relevant.
Nov 20 16:56:37 <GeneralAntilles> The fact is, we've got several people threatening to move to other platforms over it.
Nov 20 16:56:48 <GeneralAntilles> This is not the situation that a discount program like that should create.
Nov 20 16:56:54 <lardman> yep, quite
Nov 20 16:57:10 <lardman> hmm, hildon_uri_open() seems to do nothing much on Diablo
Nov 20 16:57:15 <GeneralAntilles> It's the OPPOSITE of the effect we're after, actually.
Nov 20 16:57:28 <JamieBennett> X-Fade: you around?
Nov 20 16:57:38 <lardman> hey JamieBennett
Nov 20 16:57:45 <JamieBennett> hey lardman
Nov 20 16:57:47 <GeneralAntilles> JamieBennett, he's on vacation.
Nov 20 16:57:50 <lardman> how's things?
Nov 20 16:57:52 <JamieBennett> :(
Nov 20 16:58:10 <lbt> JamieBennett: ..... videos?
Nov 20 16:58:25 <JamieBennett> yep
Nov 20 16:58:35 <lbt> problems?
Nov 20 16:59:28 <JamieBennett> need some space to upload Zeeshan's video as I can't convert it here for Vimeo
Nov 20 17:01:27 <zaheerm> wow is the builder stalled or something
Nov 20 17:01:44 <zaheerm> i can see like 8 apps queued for the fremantle builder
Nov 20 17:01:54 * lardman wonders if X-Fade left an "only call in an emergency" number... :)
Nov 20 17:02:40 <lardman> zaheerm: I pushed a package earlier today to Diablo
Nov 20 17:02:52 <qwerty12> Explains it
Nov 20 17:02:55 <JamieBennett> apparently Zeeshan needs the video quick, I have it down to a 55mb .avi but I can't upload to vimeo here (can convert it to the right format it seems) and its 80$ to send it through the post.
Nov 20 17:02:57 <lardman> tho there were loads in the fremantle queue then too
Nov 20 17:03:00 <lardman> qwerty12: :p
Nov 20 17:03:08 <JamieBennett> Are _any_ Nokia guys (or gals) around now?
Nov 20 17:03:24 <zaheerm> JamieBennett, you can upload to a free dropbox account
Nov 20 17:03:31 <zaheerm> JamieBennett, and share it with zeeshan
Nov 20 17:03:38 <JamieBennett> ah, me goes to look
Nov 20 17:04:24 <lardman> otherwise I can upload to to my (uni) webserver
Nov 20 17:04:42 <JamieBennett> I still need to get it to you though lardman
Nov 20 17:04:47 <lardman> yeah exactly
Nov 20 17:04:52 <zaheerm> lardman, there are packages from 5 hours ago
Nov 20 17:05:07 <lardman> zaheerm: hmm, perhaps qwerty12 was right ;)
Nov 20 17:05:30 <lardman> has anyone successfully used hildonmime?
Nov 20 17:05:40 <zaheerm> JamieBennett, dropbox give you 2GB free
Nov 20 17:05:44 <lardman> or is that why we all use libosso to access the browser?
Nov 20 17:07:26 <zaheerm> how do i make python packages make a noarch package rather than an i386/armel one?
Nov 20 17:07:53 <VDVsx> zaheerm, the builder was kicked a will ago, should be working fine now
Nov 20 17:08:20 <VDVsx> S/will/while/
Nov 20 17:08:21 <zaheerm> VDVsx, it is dying that it needs a will? :)
Nov 20 17:08:40 <VDVsx> but -testing seems down anyway :(
Nov 20 17:08:52 <lardman> probably needs to be put out of it's misery and restarted
Nov 20 17:08:53 <qwerty12> zaheerm: Off the top of my head, Architecture: All and use the binary-indep in rules instead of binary-arch
Nov 20 17:09:04 <lardman> s/it's/its
Nov 20 17:09:53 <lardman> argh, bloody Garage is like molasses too
Nov 20 17:10:14 <andre__> anybody knows a page anywhere that lists the Bluetooth skills of the N900? Like DUN, Object Push, Generic Object Exchange, Serial Port, ...? http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ does not
Nov 20 17:10:57 <Stskeeps> andre__: out of curiousity, what bug are you glancing at?
Nov 20 17:11:05 <VDVsx> X-Fade, please come back sooonnnnnn
Nov 20 17:11:26 <qwerty12> VDVsx: Get SuperTux on the case
Nov 20 17:11:28 <andre__> Stskeeps, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5550
Nov 20 17:11:29 <povbot> Bug 5550: "Not enough memory in target location" when receiving image from Nokia SU-1B using Bluetooth
Nov 20 17:11:29 <VDVsx> andre__, yup forum nokia
Nov 20 17:11:42 <andre__> i think it's invalid (or: not supported)
Nov 20 17:11:49 <VDVsx> qwerty12, humm ?
Nov 20 17:12:12 <qwerty12> VDVsx: Make Tux find X-Fade and bring him back :p
Nov 20 17:12:54 <VDVsx> lol
Nov 20 17:13:25 <VDVsx> andre__,  	A2DP, AVRCP, FTP, HFP, HSP, OPP
Nov 20 17:13:34 <VDVsx> from: http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/N900/
Nov 20 17:13:37 <andre__> ah, found it in the on-device docu too
Nov 20 17:13:39 <andre__> haha, thanks :)
Nov 20 17:13:48 * andre__ bookmarks
Nov 20 17:15:07 <lbt> JamieBennett: ping me later...
Nov 20 17:15:33 <JamieBennett> lbt: trying to upload to youtube as a last resort
Nov 20 17:15:47 <VDVsx> andre__, seems a bug to me, if that 'device' only needs obex stuff
Nov 20 17:16:36 <andre__> VDVsx, i'm unsure. the webpage for that device does not list the N900
Nov 20 17:16:40 <andre__> as supported
Nov 20 17:17:02 <VDVsx> eheh: "send handwritten MMS messages to a compatible phone or email address"
Nov 20 17:17:07 <Shapeshifter> mhh, invisible shield is now available.
Nov 20 17:17:07 <VDVsx> lol
Nov 20 17:17:12 <Shapeshifter> http://www.zagg.com/invisibleshield/nokia-n900-cases-screen-protectors-covers-skins-shields.php
Nov 20 17:17:16 <Shapeshifter> for those who care.
Nov 20 17:17:18 <qwerty12> andre__: But if it supports the N800...
Nov 20 17:17:37 <lardman> andre__: what is the device?
Nov 20 17:18:04 <lardman> oh bug?
Nov 20 17:18:26 <VDVsx> lardman, http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/home-and-office/wireless-digital-pens/su-1b
Nov 20 17:18:32 <VDVsx> weird stuff to me :P
Nov 20 17:18:43 <lardman> hmm, cool, send me one and I'll debug ;)
Nov 20 17:19:04 <andre__> qwerty12, but not the N810 (according to that list)
Nov 20 17:19:20 <andre__> lardman, kind of a pen to write, and it sends the data per bluetooth i think
Nov 20 17:19:32 <lardman> yeah, looks sort of cool
Nov 20 17:19:46 <Xisdibik> Good morning Maemoers
Nov 20 17:20:51 <VDVsx> andre__, if it sends a image, why it needs 3 different BT profiles, lol
Nov 20 17:21:09 <VDVsx> actually 4
Nov 20 17:21:23 <andre__> VDVsx, big *shrug* :-D
Nov 20 17:21:28 <lardman> hmm, DUN, interesting
Nov 20 17:22:40 * andre__ going through his bugmail backlog
Nov 20 17:23:27 <Flandry> Still stuck with one vote for testing :/
Nov 20 17:24:22 <dmj7262> has anyone tried the mobile vimeo site on n900?
Nov 20 17:24:54 <wirelessdreamer> dmj7262: n900 choked on hulu when I tried it at the meetup
Nov 20 17:25:14 <VDVsx> Flandry, app ?
Nov 20 17:25:18 <lardman> argh, why can't I get the browser to open an URL on my N810?!
Nov 20 17:25:31 <Flandry> uqm
Nov 20 17:25:40 <dmj7262> nevermind...the mobile site has limited selection apparently
Nov 20 17:26:05 <abstract3d> HELLO MAEMO! :p
Nov 20 17:26:27 <lardman> qwerty12: can you remember which code you pointed me at long ago?
Nov 20 17:27:03 <qwerty12> lardman: searching for "tablet-browser-interface.h" perhaps
Nov 20 17:27:17 <lardman> ok will try that in a tick
Nov 20 17:27:39 <lardman> thanks btw
Nov 20 17:28:20 <GeneralAntilles> Flandry, does it pause in the background?
Nov 20 17:28:28 <Flandry> yes
Nov 20 17:28:35 <Flandry> i added that
Nov 20 17:28:51 <Flandry> it throttles down all threads and pauses game when it loses focus
Nov 20 17:30:09 <GeneralAntilles> Anyone else who's tested can vote here: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/uqm/0.6.7-0maemo/
Nov 20 17:30:11 <lardman> rubbish, I needed a com.lardman. in front of my mbarcode
Nov 20 17:30:36 <lardman> so the browser is open at least, but not at the right url
Nov 20 17:30:40 * RST38h moos thoughtfully
Nov 20 17:31:02 <qwerty12> lardman: It assumes "com.nokia." otherwise, which doesn't work if your service file doesn't have the same...
Nov 20 17:31:13 <lardman> ah I see
Nov 20 17:31:16 <GeneralAntilles> Yeesh, it's like voting by mail.
Nov 20 17:31:23 <lardman> makes some sense now
Nov 20 17:31:29 <derf> What's wrong with voting by mail?
Nov 20 17:31:48 <RST38h> HELO, qwerty, lardman, derf, General
Nov 20 17:31:54 <derf> RST38h: HI THERE.
Nov 20 17:31:55 <lardman> hi RST38h
Nov 20 17:32:09 <Flandry> yes, thanks GeneralAntilles
Nov 20 17:32:10 <qwerty12> Hiya, RST38h
Nov 20 17:32:26 <GeneralAntilles> derf, I don't have unlimited free time? ;)
Nov 20 17:32:56 <VDVsx> derf, hey, thanks for the help in the other day, with the dbus stuff :)
Nov 20 17:33:10 <derf> VDVsx: Yer welcome. Did you finally get it working?
Nov 20 17:34:08 <VDVsx> derf, yes, actually there's a file with the default session saved:)
Nov 20 17:34:21 <VDVsx> /tmp/session_bus_address.user ^
Nov 20 17:34:53 <qwerty12> VDVsx: Is it too late to mention that prefixing sudo with "run-standalone.sh" will also work?
Nov 20 17:34:56 <Shapeshifter> GeneralAntilles: you're suggesting boxwave. Have you ever compared it to an invisible shield? And, it the boxwave as scratch resitant as the IS?
Nov 20 17:35:25 <VDVsx> qwerty12, in the device ? lol
Nov 20 17:35:31 <qwerty12> VDVsx: Yep :)
Nov 20 17:35:49 <derf> Hah, apparently so.
Nov 20 17:36:26 <GeneralAntilles> Shapeshifter, friend of mine had one, they're OK, but a pain in the ass to apply and I can't say I care for the texture.
Nov 20 17:36:32 <VDVsx> qwerty12, lol , oh my
Nov 20 17:36:59 <zaheerm> VDVsx, builder still looks stuck
Nov 20 17:37:29 <VDVsx> qwerty12, now I already have code to grab the session, will try in the next version :P
Nov 20 17:37:36 <hrw> have a nice weekend guys
Nov 20 17:37:36 <qwerty12> Hehe
Nov 20 17:37:52 <VDVsx> zaheerm, it's slow
Nov 20 17:37:53 <qwerty12> You too, hrw
Nov 20 17:38:23 <lardman> bye hrw|gone, you too
Nov 20 17:38:31 <Shapeshifter> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHde1oYCbXg&feature=related wtf I'll not lend my phone to this guy
Nov 20 17:39:04 <VDVsx> zaheerm, my package submitted last night was built a while ago, so it's working :P
Nov 20 17:39:14 <Shapeshifter> what a moron.
Nov 20 17:40:29 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, you've a MAC right ?
Nov 20 17:41:00 <GeneralAntilles> Media Access Control?
Nov 20 17:41:08 <VDVsx> yes
Nov 20 17:41:09 <VDVsx> lol
Nov 20 17:41:16 <VDVsx> no a Mac
Nov 20 17:41:19 <VDVsx> :P
Nov 20 17:41:26 <GeneralAntilles> Yes.
Nov 20 17:41:47 <lardman> balls, why is my callback data now empty
Nov 20 17:41:52 <lardman> rubbish
Nov 20 17:41:56 * lardman goes to the pub
Nov 20 17:41:59 <lardman> cu all later
Nov 20 17:42:01 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, can you test something from me, it's easy and only take a while
Nov 20 17:42:11 <GeneralAntilles> VDVsx, what?
Nov 20 17:42:44 <qwerty12> VDVsx: "only take a while" is not a good way of convincing someone to do something :p
Nov 20 17:43:18 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, bluemaemo 3.8 (-testing), you've to remove any previous pairing between the n900 and the Mac
Nov 20 17:43:53 <VDVsx> qwerty12, I know my English sucks :P
Nov 20 17:44:14 * GeneralAntilles will bring a phrasebook from the US for VDVsx. :P
Nov 20 17:44:28 <qwerty12> VDVsx: Gah, it's fine; I was just taking the piss :p
Nov 20 17:44:30 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, thanks ;)
Nov 20 17:44:31 <VDVsx> lol
Nov 20 17:45:09 <rrr__> eek!
Nov 20 17:46:06 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, the package is in -devel, my bad
Nov 20 17:46:21 <rrr__> im missing the hildonmm header
Nov 20 17:46:45 <GeneralAntilles> It just keeps getting more complicated. . . .
Nov 20 17:46:58 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, be prepared because the UI is unfinished
Nov 20 17:47:06 <VDVsx> :P
Nov 20 17:47:33 <qwerty12> GeneralAntilles: quit yo jibba jabba, fool: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/fremantle/install/bluemaemo.install
Nov 20 17:48:02 <VDVsx> oh that's new for me o_0
Nov 20 17:48:07 <GeneralAntilles> The Release file is screwed up again.
Nov 20 17:48:10 <Shapeshifter> mh. I think I'll buy accidental insurance for my n900 anyway. If I scratch it too hard, I could just wash it or something, and get a replacement for 30 bucks.
Nov 20 17:48:16 <qwerty12> Ouch
Nov 20 17:48:18 <Shapeshifter> I wonder though if I'd actually do that.
Nov 20 17:48:46 <GeneralAntilles> Shapeshifter, nothing to scratch but the screen, just get a protector. ;)
Nov 20 17:49:20 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, ah and I changed the section as you suggested :)
Nov 20 17:49:27 * VDVsx needs to close some bugs
Nov 20 17:49:31 <GeneralAntilles> lol
Nov 20 17:50:39 <GeneralAntilles> VDVsx, well, I'll test it as soon as -devel comes back.
Nov 20 17:51:22 <VDVsx> again :(
Nov 20 17:53:06 <aSIMULAtor> good evening
Nov 20 17:53:21 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, is just to see if the connection stuff is working properly with Mac :)
Nov 20 17:53:30 <VDVsx> aSIMULAtor, hey
Nov 20 17:53:37 <VDVsx> :)
Nov 20 17:53:57 <aSIMULAtor> hello my portugese distant relative
Nov 20 17:53:58 <aSIMULAtor> :P
Nov 20 17:54:25 <Shapeshifter> lol people on the forums..... "will chrome OS run on the n900?"
Nov 20 17:54:34 <Pavlov> lol
Nov 20 17:54:37 <Shapeshifter> what kind of question is that, and why would people care >.>
Nov 20 17:54:49 <GeneralAntilles> Shapeshifter, same reason they want Android.
Nov 20 17:54:52 <adeus> "yes if you make it to run on it"
Nov 20 17:54:53 <GeneralAntilles> They're silly people.
Nov 20 17:55:12 <adeus> "here is the source, make the necessary adjustments"
Nov 20 17:55:13 <VDVsx> aSIMULAtor, lol
Nov 20 17:55:19 <|R> well, the more OS choice, the better the platform?
Nov 20 17:55:25 <Shapeshifter> GeneralAntilles: well android at least is a bit more then a crap linux distro.
Nov 20 17:55:44 <VDVsx> adeus ++
Nov 20 17:55:48 <JamieBennett> sorted, Zeeshan's talk is processing at http://www.blip.tv/file/2875261/
Nov 20 17:55:55 * JamieBennett goes back to the discussions
Nov 20 17:57:17 <GeneralAntilles> Damn incomprehensible Nokia travel agent emails.
Nov 20 17:57:25 <GeneralAntilles> Where's that damn decoder ring. . . .
Nov 20 17:58:09 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, I'm receiving a lot of spam from them, about strikes all over Spain, lol
Nov 20 17:58:34 <VDVsx> and also got one warning about ETA , hihih
Nov 20 17:58:50 <GeneralAntilles> Hooray for 9 hour flights.
Nov 20 17:59:08 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, too short :p
Nov 20 17:59:21 <GeneralAntilles> Second leg is 3 hours.
Nov 20 17:59:49 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: at least you don't have to wait for passport this time
Nov 20 17:59:50 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 20 17:59:55 <GeneralAntilles> Indeed
Nov 20 18:01:09 <VDVsx> my return trip from SF was 20+ :)
Nov 20 18:02:58 <VDVsx> ouch they used a steady cam that only filmed half of the projection (@ summit videos) :(
Nov 20 18:03:32 <GeneralAntilles> Steady cam or tripod?
Nov 20 18:03:57 <Stskeeps> the sound is like that on all recordings?
Nov 20 18:04:00 <Stskeeps> could be worse..
Nov 20 18:04:00 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 20 18:04:18 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, something like that, dunno
Nov 20 18:04:32 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, where you connection ? London ?
Nov 20 18:04:38 <VDVsx> *your
Nov 20 18:04:52 <GeneralAntilles> VDVsx, assuming it's not one of these. :P http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/product_images/altimage/22%2009%202006steadicam_flyer_1.jpg
Nov 20 18:04:54 <GeneralAntilles> JFK
Nov 20 18:05:59 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, no the second leg
Nov 20 18:06:36 <GeneralAntilles> Tampa to JFK to Barcelona
Nov 20 18:11:00 <andre__> summit videos? in public? where?
Nov 20 18:11:27 <GeneralAntilles> http://jamiebennett.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dc
Nov 20 18:11:36 <GeneralAntilles> The Bug Jar lightning talk is good.
Nov 20 18:11:41 <qwerty12> "nsfw=dc"?
Nov 20 18:12:13 <andre__> uh
Nov 20 18:12:16 <andre__> shweet
Nov 20 18:12:18 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12, lots and lots of porn. Click the link.
Nov 20 18:12:36 <qwerty12> "Elisator for cow's health analisys - Manrique Lopez" - now this sounds sexy
Nov 20 18:12:49 <qwerty12> Cow? Check. Anal? Check
Nov 20 18:14:14 <Xisdibik> porn? where?
Nov 20 18:14:45 <Xisdibik> qwerty12: your missing out on the sheep
Nov 20 18:15:20 * qwerty12 blames libhildonfm for fucking with his mind
Nov 20 18:15:23 <qwerty12> Heh
Nov 20 18:15:46 <sgbirch> I just called Vodafone to see if I can get a tether plan so I dont have the 500M limit they put on theunlimit plan
Nov 20 18:15:50 <sgbirch> no
Nov 20 18:15:56 <sgbirch> is there a better cell corp for data
Nov 20 18:16:03 <Xisdibik> O2?
Nov 20 18:16:26 * Xisdibik has no idea, just said it cuzit was in his head
Nov 20 18:16:26 <sgbirch> ok
Nov 20 18:16:35 <sgbirch> Xisdibik: lol
Nov 20 18:16:50 <sgbirch> I have been happy with vodafone .. but they dont seem to like data
Nov 20 18:18:22 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: where are you?
Nov 20 18:18:38 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: uk?
Nov 20 18:18:39 <sgbirch> uk
Nov 20 18:18:54 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: You on contract ATM?
Nov 20 18:19:00 <sgbirch> but I work in the US . .. so I need a solution for both corps
Nov 20 18:19:08 <SpeedEvil> ah
Nov 20 18:19:12 <sgbirch> contrect expired in both contries
Nov 20 18:19:29 <sgbirch> vodafone in uk and T-Mobile is usa
Nov 20 18:19:40 <hexa_> hi there small question . could someone point me to some doc about sending/receiving sms on maemo 5 ... can't find it in the dev guide it seems ?
Nov 20 18:21:02 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: Do you do normal calls - or just data?
Nov 20 18:21:15 <sgbirch> normal + data
Nov 20 18:21:21 <andre__> hexa_, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=33597 ?
Nov 20 18:21:39 <hexa_> andre__, thx! :)
Nov 20 18:21:51 <andre__> hexa_, well... just a starting point. don't think it'll cover all you need :-/
Nov 20 18:22:07 <hexa_> andre__, np that's what I needed
Nov 20 18:23:46 <wjt> hexa_: i think there's convenience API on the messaging UI to do this
Nov 20 18:24:43 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: how many months are you int he UK?
Nov 20 18:25:04 <sgbirch> 6
Nov 20 18:25:21 <hexa_> wjt, humm k I guess I'll have some code reading to do hehe
Nov 20 18:25:22 <sgbirch> oh .. UK .. 3
Nov 20 18:25:27 <wjt> hexa_: hmm, doesn't look like there is
Nov 20 18:25:34 <sgbirch> SpeedEvil: 3
Nov 20 18:26:05 <hexa_> wjt, hehe k np.. It should not be that bad if I can with telepathy
Nov 20 18:26:07 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: I would be looking at tesco IIRC they offer good value for pay-as-you-go - when you want months of service at a time.
Nov 20 18:26:35 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: they offer a 'triple your top-up' - which would work well
Nov 20 18:26:37 <sgbirch> cool
Nov 20 18:26:43 <Milo-> andre__ oh my gosh, why did you link to a topic that is so horribly written? capitalizing each word's first letter is just as unbearable as all caps.
Nov 20 18:26:50 <sgbirch> who is the provider though, tesco doesnt have a network
Nov 20 18:26:59 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: I suspect generally that a contract is not going to work well for you. Dunno.
Nov 20 18:27:00 <RST38h> Milo: And Why Is That?
Nov 20 18:27:02 <andre__> Milo-, I think that two people (and me) told that guy already :)
Nov 20 18:27:10 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: the provider may not sell that tarrif directly.
Nov 20 18:27:28 <andre__> B0rked Auto-Kapitalization Maybe? Shrug. :-P
Nov 20 18:27:38 <wjt> hexa_: the short version is… find the ring account, get a text channel to the number, send your message, close it up
Nov 20 18:27:40 <Milo-> just bloody annoying
Nov 20 18:27:52 <hexa_> wjt, seems simple enought :)
Nov 20 18:30:00 <sgbirch> SpeedEvil: I have used contract with both corps but hate them. Want to move to payg
Nov 20 18:30:12 <sgbirch> SpeedEvil: My kids are on that, it seems much better and cheaper
Nov 20 18:30:23 <sgbirch> SpeedEvil: also seems cheaper to buy a phone
Nov 20 18:30:43 <sgbirch> SpeedEvil: once you compute complete cost
Nov 20 18:31:06 <RST38h> "As revealed by Crunchgear, Jobs recently sent an 11-word email to an longtime Mac developer who had come groveling to the cult leader after being threatened by a band of Apple lawyers."
Nov 20 18:31:16 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: perhaps.
Nov 20 18:31:25 <Milo-> can you compile your source code _using_ your n900?
Nov 20 18:31:30 <RST38h> (this is treated as the Second Coming in the news, of course)
Nov 20 18:31:32 <SpeedEvil> sgbirch: If you're in the UK all the time, tehre are possibly better ways
Nov 20 18:31:34 <SpeedEvil> Milo-: yes
Nov 20 18:31:36 <Milo-> or do you have to develop and compile all code in the SDK?
Nov 20 18:31:43 <qwerty12> lcukn900: Can you compile your source code _using_ your n900?
Nov 20 18:31:52 <SpeedEvil> Milo-: I don't know if there is a pre-prepared package to do that though.
Nov 20 18:31:59 <lcukn900> oooer xchat in extras-dev doesnt like changing the font
Nov 20 18:32:19 <andre__> still xchat quite rocks for the n900, compared to the n810 version :-P
Nov 20 18:32:26 <qwerty12> lcukn900: It's buggy as fuck, better off downgrading at the moment
Nov 20 18:32:56 <Milo-> SpeedEvil okay, because the SDK isn't compatible with amd64 as far as I know :/
Nov 20 18:33:13 <GeneralAntilles> Everybody blame qwerty12!
Nov 20 18:33:35 <JohnHoe> Who?
Nov 20 18:33:36 <andre__> tss.
Nov 20 18:34:15 <lcukn900> lol qwerty
Nov 20 18:34:25 <lcukn900> no not best off downgrading
Nov 20 18:34:29 * Shapeshifter just ordered a bl-5j battery from ebay.
Nov 20 18:34:35 <lcukn900> is the bugtracker up and running
Nov 20 18:34:41 <Milo-> kind of annoying if I have to create a 32bit environment just to build my code :(
Nov 20 18:35:00 <Shapeshifter> for 4.60$ I wonder if it is _any_ good at all.
Nov 20 18:35:00 <lcukn900> not just to pressure you, but so folks can help
Nov 20 18:35:09 <GeneralAntilles> Good for blowing up your N900.
Nov 20 18:35:12 <JohnHoe> Shapeshifter: A very lightweight paper weight?
Nov 20 18:35:23 <lcukn900> milo im annoyed about 64bit atm lol
Nov 20 18:35:30 <lcukn900> wanna swap
Nov 20 18:35:40 <lcukn900> i need big fonts
Nov 20 18:35:42 <Milo-> 64bit is no problem ._·
Nov 20 18:35:52 <RST38h> Shapeshifter: It will make a good firecracker
Nov 20 18:35:52 <lcukn900> if i edit the config manually does it change
Nov 20 18:35:56 <Milo-> 32bit is a problem :(
Nov 20 18:36:01 <JohnHoe> lcukn900: Yessir
Nov 20 18:36:08 <Milo-> I left those days ages ago
Nov 20 18:36:14 <lcukn900> 64bit is not comfortable with scratchbox
Nov 20 18:36:29 <lcukn900> or rather makes everything moar tricky
Nov 20 18:36:43 <Shapeshifter> Well, actually, I've read nowhere that cheap batteries really are any risk to anything. I strongly suspect it willget duff mutch quicker, but for 5 bucks...
Nov 20 18:36:43 <Milo-> lcukn900 well that's what I understood
Nov 20 18:36:46 <Shapeshifter> as a backup...
Nov 20 18:37:16 <Milo-> I couldn't get the SDK to work on 64bit
Nov 20 18:37:23 <lcukn900> wheres the file and can sed change kt
Nov 20 18:37:23 <lcukn900> ive got no editor on device
Nov 20 18:37:34 <adeus> I used it for a while
Nov 20 18:37:44 <lcukn900> milo whats needing you in 32bit then
Nov 20 18:37:47 <adeus> some manual labor required but it's possible
Nov 20 18:38:00 <Milo-> huh?
Nov 20 18:38:32 <Milo-> could you re-elaborate?
Nov 20 18:38:49 <Milo-> my inner interpreter failed
Nov 20 18:39:08 <Shapeshifter> and sometimes the cheap aftermarket batteries are actually the same
Nov 20 18:39:13 <ali1234> Shapeshifter: $5 is about what batteries actually cost. it will be posted to you from china of course, even if the seller is local to you.
Nov 20 18:39:14 <Shapeshifter> same OEM supplier as the original.
Nov 20 18:39:50 <Shapeshifter> ali1234: yeah, hong kong.
Nov 20 18:42:04 <Sargun> Don't they put the gas gauge in the battery these days?
Nov 20 18:42:21 <Shapeshifter> ali1234: well, it's actually 1 cent at the moment, the rest 4.59$ is shipping.
Nov 20 18:51:22 <Shapeshifter> apple fans can be quite a bother
Nov 20 18:51:36 <Shapeshifter> they're bots, mostly.
Nov 20 18:52:52 <PaulFertser> Sargun: do you mean coloumb counter like in gta02?
Nov 20 18:53:08 <Sargun> PaulFertser, yeah.
Nov 20 18:53:30 <PaulFertser> Sargun: it looks like nokia hardware engineers are just imaginary ghosts, i've never seen one on irc. So there's nobody to answer your question ;)
Nov 20 18:53:43 <PaulFertser> Sargun: you should have stayed with your gta02 ;)
Nov 20 18:53:56 <Sargun> hahaha
Nov 20 18:54:08 <Sargun> PaulFertser, Our GTA02s have an uptime of a year
Nov 20 18:55:00 <PaulFertser> Sargun: impressing. Can you probably post some kind of a "success story" to the community ML to cheer up the crowd a bit?
Nov 20 18:55:37 <Sargun> Yeah, then we abandoned them because their modems were fried
Nov 20 18:56:06 <PaulFertser> Sargun: that's even more interesting and important
Nov 20 18:56:30 <PaulFertser> Sargun: care to elaborate? Probably it's too OT here, i invite you somewhere else.
Nov 20 18:56:37 <Sargun> PaulFertser, Yes, maybe one of these days I'll draft an email
Nov 20 18:56:40 <Sargun> #openmoko-cdevel ?
Nov 20 18:56:42 <mikedep333> hey all, I'm a US customer of AT&T and I am thinking of buying the unlocked N900
Nov 20 18:56:46 <mikedep333> I cannot get a data plan however
Nov 20 18:57:01 <mikedep333> does anyone know if the N900 is usable with wi-fi only?
Nov 20 18:57:04 <Pavlov> it is
Nov 20 18:57:19 <mikedep333> Pavlov, any more details?
Nov 20 18:57:23 <qwerty12_N810> mikedep333: Mine is SIM-less ATM
Nov 20 18:57:31 <PaulFertser> Sargun: yep, whereever you want, probably #openmoko
Nov 20 18:57:31 <kalikiana> mikedep333, you can even use it without any mobile network
Nov 20 18:57:45 <qwerty12_N810> mikedep333: I can still go online and everything
Nov 20 18:57:52 <qwerty12_N810> (Using Wi-Fi)
Nov 20 18:58:01 <mikedep333> I had to mess around with my Nokia 5800 XM to make it do mail for exchange only with wi-fi, not with mobile data
Nov 20 18:58:16 <mikedep333> ok, thanks
Nov 20 18:58:33 <mikedep333> amazon just lowered the price to $480 USD after rebate
Nov 20 18:58:57 <mikedep333> I can't find an another unlocked cortex A8 phone for anywhere near the price
Nov 20 18:59:15 <kalikiana> the mobile network also has a different icon when it asks for a connection if you use a sim for phone only
Nov 20 18:59:24 <kalikiana> ie. you can easily see it
Nov 20 18:59:26 <mikedep333> gotcha
Nov 20 19:01:36 <mikedep333> amazon doesn't list when they'll ship it. It's shipping December 1st or so in the US, right?
Nov 20 19:01:47 <ali1234> how do i get the GLES 1.1 on to the n900? (i mean libGLES_CM.so)
Nov 20 19:03:35 <ali1234> libgles1-sgx-img: Depends: opengles-sgx-img-common (= 0.20090218.55.9+0m5) but 0.20090218.55.1+0m5 is to be installed
Nov 20 19:06:25 <ali1234> heh, that's blocking me from installing ioquake3 too
Nov 20 19:07:12 <yerga> ali1234, what firmware version do you have?
Nov 20 19:07:20 <ali1234> not updated yet
Nov 20 19:07:32 <yerga> ali1234, then you should update
Nov 20 19:07:35 <ali1234> i wanted to test ogre3d before updating
Nov 20 19:07:45 <ali1234> because then if i ruin it, well, i'm going to update anyway
Nov 20 19:08:17 <yerga> ali1234, it worked fine here with 42-11
Nov 20 19:08:35 <ali1234> yeah
Nov 20 19:08:47 <ali1234> it doesn't inspire much confidence anyway
Nov 20 19:08:56 <mikedep333> anyone? the N900's US release date?
Nov 20 19:09:26 <ali1234> i mean are the repos basically going to break every tme there's a firmware update?
Nov 20 19:09:34 <mikedep333> never mind, found it
Nov 20 19:09:59 <ali1234> and what's the point of using apt anyway if you're going to make monolithic firmware images?
Nov 20 19:13:49 * Jaffa wonders how much of Children in Need he'll have to watch to see Doctor Who snippet
Nov 20 19:13:54 <andre__> there's also 3rd party software out there
Nov 20 19:14:35 <andre__> ali1234: as it's monolithic images switching to some proprietary stuff instead of apt makes sense? ;-)
Nov 20 19:14:45 <ali1234> so apt is just for 3rd party developers, who are continuously at the whim of nokia to not screw it up by a firmware update?
Nov 20 19:14:50 <PaulFertser> ali1234: and what is the point in assuming nokia wants to use a sane strategy for updates? Once i was told that nokia doesn't target any users that can compile kernels (or know how to use apt-get/apt-cache). It looks very true given the strange hybrid update system they used for Nxx0.
Nov 20 19:14:51 <Jaffa> ali1234: Most updates are shipped via apt, but during pre-production it's easier to ship whole images
Nov 20 19:14:59 <ali1234> because that's how it feels
Nov 20 19:15:10 <andre__> later on-the-fly updates do use apt.
Nov 20 19:15:37 <andre__> however reflashing with a new image will use less memory IIRC
Nov 20 19:15:40 <woglinde> jo
Nov 20 19:16:37 <Jaffa> ali1234: "continuously at the whim" suggests Nokia are either malicious or secretive. When they know that 3rd party devs make the platform.
Nov 20 19:17:00 <PaulFertser> andre__: what about the "Seamless Software Update"? Is it a sane way to update an apt-based distro in your opinion?
Nov 20 19:17:39 <woglinde> thats a funny dns
Nov 20 19:17:41 <woglinde> host81-155-227-189.range81-155.btcentralplus.com
Nov 20 19:18:24 <Shapeshifter> have any of you tried running synergy on the n900?
Nov 20 19:18:38 <ali1234> Shapeshifter: yes i have, it didn't work because of missing x libs
Nov 20 19:18:49 <Shapeshifter> ali1234: mhh. okay.
Nov 20 19:18:58 <andre__> PaulFertser: I simply don't have enough technical knowledge to comment whether it's good or bad. From a user point I think it is quite flawless normally (not: always) and hence nice
Nov 20 19:19:20 <GAN900> mikedep333, why no data?
Nov 20 19:19:32 <GAN900> It's only $15/mo with a voice plan.
Nov 20 19:19:38 <ali1234> Jaffa: it suggests nothing except the repos are currently broken for anyone who is not running the latest and greatest firmware, and there's no guarantee this won't happen again, perhaps 12 months after release, when the device is in the hands of people who don't know what a firmware update even is.
Nov 20 19:19:59 <GAN900> ali1234, you're running pre-release software.
Nov 20 19:20:04 <GAN900> Get over it.
Nov 20 19:20:29 <GAN900> Software update notifications appear automatically.
Nov 20 19:20:32 <PaulFertser> andre__: have you ever used Debian or any other distro? Do they use any strange dirty tricks like that to update the system?
Nov 20 19:20:40 <ali1234> it is a small step from "you're running pre-release software, get over it" to "you're running out of date software, get over it" to "your users are running out of date software, get over it"
Nov 20 19:20:42 <GAN900> All the user has to do is tap a couple of buttons.
Nov 20 19:21:02 <ali1234> actually, software update notifications don't appear automatically for system libraries, which is exactly what is broken in this case
Nov 20 19:21:09 * GAN900 sighs.
Nov 20 19:21:11 <ali1234> neither do they appear for firmware images
Nov 20 19:21:12 <andre__> installing ioquake also did not work with 47-18 yesterday because of the opengl dep issue
Nov 20 19:21:32 <GAN900> System libs will never be updated without an SSU update beong released.
Nov 20 19:21:43 <ali1234> unless they're 3rd party
Nov 20 19:21:46 <andre__> ali1234, how comes you now that they don't appear?
Nov 20 19:21:50 <andre__> s/now/know
Nov 20 19:21:51 <qwerty12_N810> andre__: Serves you right :-P
Nov 20 19:21:54 <GAN900> and, really, this is and ioq3 packaging issue.
Nov 20 19:22:08 <PaulFertser> GAN900: what is SSU anyway? Why doesn't it come with the usual apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade?
Nov 20 19:22:15 <andre__> qwerty12_N810: hey, i just wanted to play an egoshooter while my g/f was sleeping next to me. quite normal, eh? :-P
Nov 20 19:22:37 <GAN900> It's a metapackage that updates the system software.
Nov 20 19:22:44 <ali1234> andre__: because i set up my own repo, uploaded a system lib to it (which was not marked with an extras/* section as per the guidelines) and then uploaded an updated version, and i was not notified of the update on the device
Nov 20 19:22:51 <GAN900> For a variety of largely legacy reasons.
Nov 20 19:23:02 <ali1234> the only way i could install it was to do it manually with apt-get
Nov 20 19:23:05 <andre__> qwerty12_N810, argh. "first person shooter" i mean. i think only the stupid germans call it "egoshooter"...
Nov 20 19:23:07 <qwerty12_N810> andre__: No, it's totally wrong. To redeem yourself, share the images :p
Nov 20 19:23:12 <qwerty12_N810> :)
Nov 20 19:23:17 <GAN900> ali1234, that's a good way to break things for your users.
Nov 20 19:23:22 <RST38h> egoshooter sounds better
Nov 20 19:23:25 <ali1234> GAN900: yes it is, isnt it?
Nov 20 19:23:34 <annoia> Which repository do I need to get libpython?
Nov 20 19:23:35 <andre__> qwerty12_N810, i only took one and there's no nudity, so probably not too interesting for you ;-)
Nov 20 19:23:36 <RST38h> btw there is a homebrewn 3d gmame called Egoboo =)
Nov 20 19:23:40 <PaulFertser> GAN900: i thought that all major distros managed to update without using weird unexpected ways, didn't they?
Nov 20 19:23:49 <annoia> It doesn't seem to be in any of the ones I have available
Nov 20 19:24:01 * GAN900 can see he's not going to get anywhere in these silly discussions.
Nov 20 19:24:07 <qwerty12_N810> andre__: ROFL! I actually meant firmware images, but sure... :D
Nov 20 19:24:23 <andre__> ali1234: I don't think that overwriting system packages from some weird 3rd party repo should be ever supported by SSU ;-)
Nov 20 19:24:40 <andre__> qwerty12_N810, sure you did, sure. We all believe you... ;-)
Nov 20 19:24:45 <ali1234> andre__: why would i want to overwrite system packages
Nov 20 19:24:56 <andre__> you just stated that.
Nov 20 19:24:58 <andre__> don't know.
Nov 20 19:24:58 <ali1234> as usual, you are not listening to what people are actually saying
Nov 20 19:25:13 <ali1234> consider the case where i package some library which is NOT a system library
Nov 20 19:25:16 <GeneralAntilles> ali1234, hypocrite.
Nov 20 19:25:21 <ali1234> some random library, libfoo
Nov 20 19:25:32 <andre__> ali1234: ah, "as usual". thanks for knowing me so well, dear unknown stranger ;-)
Nov 20 19:25:33 <ali1234> then, somebody else make a package which uses it
Nov 20 19:25:35 <PaulFertser> GAN900: it's not a discussion. I honestly do not understand. And i assume many other users too. maemo.wiki.org doesn't tell the reasons unfortunately. What should i google to finally get it?
Nov 20 19:25:55 <andre__> ali1234, "<ali1234> andre__: because i set up my own repo, uploaded a system lib to it" and so on.
Nov 20 19:25:58 <GeneralAntilles> PaulFertser, mobile devices are not PCs.
Nov 20 19:26:16 <ali1234> andre__: i consider a system lib to be any package which begins "lib..."
Nov 20 19:26:25 <PaulFertser> GeneralAntilles: neither are netbooks
Nov 20 19:26:30 <ali1234> andre__: and NOT necessarily something provided already in the base firmware
Nov 20 19:26:37 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: SSU is, basically, apt-get update && dist-upgrade; but the reason it has extra stuff around it is exactly the same reason Ubuntu has an update-manager
Nov 20 19:26:39 <GeneralAntilles> They're a helluva lot closer than a 770.
Nov 20 19:26:54 <andre__> ali1234: apart from me not listening, any other personal problems with me, or quotes/URLs so I can try to improve my listening skills? (not kidding here, really interested)
Nov 20 19:27:02 <hardaker> nokia support SUCKS
Nov 20 19:27:03 <ali1234> so anyway, if i find a security bug in my package, libfoo, and release an updated version, no users will ever be notified of it's existence
Nov 20 19:27:23 <hardaker> (and they lie)
Nov 20 19:27:54 <hardaker> when they said "they're shipping" the other day and you call they say "oh yeah, we're just waiting for fedex to pick them up"
Nov 20 19:28:00 <PaulFertser> Jaffa: ubuntu is not a good example, i'm afraid. When i saw "fail-safe X server" (that is designed specifically to make xorg.conf editing harder) i lost all my hope in that distro.
Nov 20 19:28:06 <hardaker> and keep saying that for days...  somehow, I don't think it's fedex
Nov 20 19:28:19 <andre__> hardaker, uhm... which country?
Nov 20 19:28:23 <hardaker> us
Nov 20 19:28:40 <andre__> bad :-/
Nov 20 19:28:43 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: I'm talking technical reasons
Nov 20 19:29:02 <annoia> I'm trying to install the ssh client/server, but I'm missing openssh-client and openssh-server... Where to I get these (and why aren't they in the same repository?!!)
Nov 20 19:29:03 <ali1234> so, as it stands, the existing package management system makes it impossible for 3rd party developers to fix security bugs (or any other kind of bugs) in libraries
Nov 20 19:29:15 <Jaffa> ali1234: There've been a number of discussion as to how to solve that, and there *is* a workaround. Feel free to participate on maemo-developers and patches to HAM always welcome.
Nov 20 19:29:15 <ali1234> and if you think that is a good idea then there's really no hope for you
Nov 20 19:29:28 <PaulFertser> GeneralAntilles: i can't understand how an update stratagy for a mobile device differs from a PC OS, sorry. I admit i'm somewhat dumb. But probably other users are not very smart as well so it deserves some explanation imho.
Nov 20 19:29:47 <ali1234> last time i raised this issue the workaround was to force a dependency on the package(s) which use it
Nov 20 19:29:50 <Jaffa> ali1234: "Impossible" is wrong; because there's a trivial (and sub-optimal) workaround of releasing a new version of one piece of software which relies on it with a >= dependency.
Nov 20 19:30:17 <ali1234> in order for the user to be guaranteed to get the fixed lib, you have to fix *every* package which uses it
Nov 20 19:30:25 <ali1234> which could be several hundred megabytes of packages
Nov 20 19:30:35 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, http://repository.maemo.org/extras/pool/fremantle/free/o/openssh/
Nov 20 19:30:37 <GeneralAntilles> It's in Extras.
Nov 20 19:30:54 <PaulFertser> Jaffa: i'm not a ubuntu user so i lack knowledge about its "update manager" but judging by the general ideas of that distro i assume it's quite possibly either solves a non-existant problem or tries to solve a real problem in an utterly wrong way.
Nov 20 19:31:01 <Jaffa> ali1234: As I said, it's sub-optimal and solutions are welcome
Nov 20 19:31:38 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - That's pretty weird, as I have extras in my catalogues
Nov 20 19:31:47 <ali1234> the solution is really simple. the solution is not to have a solution. just show all updates whether they have a section or not.
Nov 20 19:32:12 <javispedro> so that the user gets an update availables dialog for "libillumination"?
Nov 20 19:32:12 <Jaffa> ali1234: Not very user friendly for the mass-market.
Nov 20 19:32:22 <ali1234> yes
Nov 20 19:32:22 <javispedro> (sorry for putting that concrete example)
Nov 20 19:32:25 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, Fremantle or Diablo?
Nov 20 19:32:43 <ali1234> or better the user gets "updates available, do you want to install? (y/n)"
Nov 20 19:32:51 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - Fremantle
Nov 20 19:32:58 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, what does apt-get update show?
Nov 20 19:33:21 <GeneralAntilles> apt-get install openssh-server (or -client) shows not found, I presume?
Nov 20 19:33:22 <Jaffa> ali1234: err, that *is* the notifications dialogue for updates. But, as you say, it only deals with user-facing packages.
Nov 20 19:33:26 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - Actually apt-cache search ssh shows the openssh-client and server...
Nov 20 19:33:30 <ali1234> exactly, and that's the problem
Nov 20 19:33:48 <Jaffa> ali1234: Yes, and your solution isn't compatible with the requirements. So a different solution is needed.
Nov 20 19:33:53 <GeneralAntilles> Ah, apt-get install openssh ?
Nov 20 19:34:01 <ali1234> in that case the requirements are broken
Nov 20 19:34:04 <Jaffa> Software Design 101: if the solution doesn't meet the requirements, it's not a solution.
Nov 20 19:34:23 <GeneralAntilles> ali1234, that users not be exposed to pages and pages of meaningless gibberish?
Nov 20 19:34:39 <Jaffa> s/meaningless/$& (to them) /
Nov 20 19:34:41 <ali1234> GeneralAntilles: the solution to that is not to show the user what is being installed unless they specifically ask to see it
Nov 20 19:35:01 <GeneralAntilles> Hey, that's the solution we have now!
Nov 20 19:35:16 <Jaffa> GeneralAntilles: No, he means not telling the user what's going to be updated at all
Nov 20 19:35:18 <ali1234> no, the solution we have now is not to update any packages which the user wont "understand"
Nov 20 19:35:28 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - Could it be that because installing the package removes a different package, the Nokia tool refuses?
Nov 20 19:35:30 <Jaffa> Just that there are updates and it'll take 34.2MB to download
Nov 20 19:35:43 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, installing openssh shouldn't remove anything.
Nov 20 19:35:51 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, can you pastebin the apt log?
Nov 20 19:36:22 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - It removes ssh and mp-fremantle-generic-tr
Nov 20 19:36:38 <GeneralAntilles> ali1234, problem with that is that users often install repositories which will make their systems unbootable if a dist-upgrade is applied.
Nov 20 19:36:40 <ali1234> the problem is "the user doesn't understand about updates for libraries" and the solution we currently have is "lets just not update those libraries" when the correct solution is "lets just update the libraries without telling the user specifically what was updated"
Nov 20 19:36:58 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - Not sure what you're looking for, but I'm fairly well versed in Linux :)
Nov 20 19:37:18 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, this is on the device? 42-11?
Nov 20 19:37:26 * Jaffa suggests that people who are new to the platform don't panic without seeing things in practice; offer constructive solutions in the right place; and don't rant and insult people who are long standing contributors to the platform
Nov 20 19:37:40 <GeneralAntilles> Jaffa, goodluckwiththat
Nov 20 19:37:43 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - This is on a brand new N900. What does 42-11 refer to?
Nov 20 19:37:55 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, the software version.
Nov 20 19:38:00 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, retail?
Nov 20 19:38:01 <Jaffa> ali1234: i.e. an implicit meta-package of "Software libraries (342KB)" appearing in HAM?
Nov 20 19:38:12 <ali1234> sure, that would work for me
Nov 20 19:38:15 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - Nokia development loaner
Nov 20 19:38:26 <Jaffa> ali1234: Sounds like it might be a workable idea, however IRC isn't exactly the best feedback and decision system.
Nov 20 19:38:34 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, can you go to control panel -> about and see what the version string is?
Nov 20 19:39:06 <PaulFertser> Jaffa: the problem is that everyone says: hey, maemo is a nice distro, there's apt to manage your packages, just like in your favourite debian. And then it suddenly appears it's not exactly like that.
Nov 20 19:39:09 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - Ah, yes, 42-11
Nov 20 19:39:25 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, hrm, strange.
Nov 20 19:39:28 <javispedro> PaulFertser: what part of apt is missing?
Nov 20 19:39:39 <GeneralAntilles> And apt-get install openssh-server/client wants to remove things?
Nov 20 19:39:46 <ali1234> and it turns out this is all irrelevant anyway since the gles thing is not related to firmware versions, it's just a bug in the repo
Nov 20 19:40:02 <javispedro> and a known one..
Nov 20 19:40:07 <GeneralAntilles> (annoia, that's the latest release available, by the way. The one they're shipping in retail units.)
Nov 20 19:40:15 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - Yes, the packages I said.
Nov 20 19:40:24 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - Cool. :D
Nov 20 19:41:07 <woglinde> hm nokia fires 300 people in reasearch
Nov 20 19:41:07 <woglinde> nice
Nov 20 19:41:07 <PaulFertser> javispedro: no apt part is missing. But extra confusing non-apt parts (SSU) are present. And that is just confusing. It's not explained anywhere why this extra mechanism is introduced and how it works. Just very confusing. I think i somewhat can read docs and the code but the page about SSU on the wiki tells about nothing to me. :-/
Nov 20 19:41:30 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, not sure what either package is related to.
Nov 20 19:41:44 <ali1234> also the gui update manage does not work like the way people have used other distros will expect for reasons i spent the last 15 minutes ranting about
Nov 20 19:41:44 <javispedro> PaulFertser: SSU is a meta-package that has strong dependencies on certain versions of system components. like ubuntu-desktop. is that enough?
Nov 20 19:42:00 <javispedro> ali1234: install synaptic
Nov 20 19:42:10 <ali1234> synaptic is not an update notifier
Nov 20 19:42:11 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - Dunno. But it doesn't seem too disastrous to remove ;)
Nov 20 19:42:21 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, at worst you may have to reflash. ;)
Nov 20 19:42:34 <javispedro> ali1234: well install your favourite update notifier.
Nov 20 19:42:51 <GeneralAntilles> annoia, usually the disastrous removals you can spot when it wants to free about 140MB of installed packages. ;0
Nov 20 19:42:56 <annoia> Hehe
Nov 20 19:43:02 <PaulFertser> javispedro: well... If it was written on the wiki _and_ it was clearly stated how it interacts with apt (e.g. what if i have my own kernel package that is on hold to avoid auto-updating etc), it'd be enough.
Nov 20 19:43:11 <annoia> GeneralAntilles - Ten years of Debian/Ubuntu has taught me to spot those ;)
Nov 20 19:43:36 <javispedro> PaulFertser: easy. if you have your own kernel you're on your own when updating. dist-upgrade, intuition, and good luck.
Nov 20 19:43:41 <ali1234> javispedro: i may have to do that. unfortunately there's no guarantee my users will do that
Nov 20 19:44:50 <PaulFertser> javispedro: hm. Do you agree that SSU is confusing and scary to any Debian administrator even after he reads http://wiki.maemo.org/Seamless_Software_Update ?
Nov 20 19:45:14 <javispedro> ali1234: so all you want  is for users to have updated versions of a lib you need? then yes you'll need a newer version of a user/ package every time.
Nov 20 19:45:26 <javispedro> every time a newer version of the lib shows up.
Nov 20 19:46:18 <javispedro> PaulFertser: no, I don't find it scary. The first thing I did was switch to unlocked. If you know how to recompile and flash your own kernel I'll find it disturbing a metapackage bothering you.
Nov 20 19:49:44 <ali1234> javispedro: which is bad if i didn't make any user visible package which uses the lib
Nov 20 19:49:44 <PaulFertser> javispedro: it's written on the wiki that installing this package will overwrite my kernel. It's not clear if it will do it or not if the kernel is installed as a proper package and is put on hold. So uncertainty combined with unclear intentions is somewhat bothering.
Nov 20 19:50:18 <javispedro> PaulFertser: "kernel installed as a proper package"? the kernel is not even on a filesystem!
Nov 20 19:50:32 <javispedro> ali1234: and what use is a lib without a user-visible app?
Nov 20 19:50:44 <ali1234> javispedro: you assume that all packages are made by the same person?
Nov 20 19:50:57 <ali1234> the whole point of libraries is multiple packages may use them
Nov 20 19:51:03 <javispedro> ali1234: no. I assume people talking.
Nov 20 19:51:13 <ali1234> well that's not a valid assumption
Nov 20 19:51:26 <PaulFertser> javispedro: i think that the proper way would be to install kernels to the filesystem and to provide a tool like update-alternatives to flash the particular kernel you want.
Nov 20 19:51:26 <javispedro> well then why we're going to have an ITP mailing list.
Nov 20 19:51:32 <ali1234> what if the person who makes the user package has disappeared? hit by a bus?
Nov 20 19:52:11 <ali1234> at best you have to scramble around for someone else to make an updated package
Nov 20 19:52:13 <javispedro> ali1234: freeze the package forever in memoriam? or take over it? what a hard decision damn it!
Nov 20 19:52:33 <ali1234> of course if you just allow library updates, you don't need to do either
Nov 20 19:52:45 <ali1234> because the existing package would continue to work with the new lib
Nov 20 19:53:02 <javispedro> until you hit a bug in the user/ app and you have to take over the package either way.
Nov 20 19:53:11 <Jaffa> ali1234: Who does the testing in your "multiple people sharing a J. Random Library" world?
Nov 20 19:53:17 <ali1234> and of course it's even worse if multiple packages use the lib
Nov 20 19:53:30 <Jaffa> Maemo doesn't have the release process, the entry requirements or the timescales of Debian.
Nov 20 19:55:00 <Shapeshifter> when making a wallpaper for the n900, is one big wide image needed, or 4 small ones?
Nov 20 19:55:21 <Jaffa> ali1234: Anyway, I quite like the "Software libraries" pseudo-package entry to handle lib upgrades that we got to.
Nov 20 19:55:25 <ali1234> Shapeshifter: 4 small ones
Nov 20 19:55:27 <Shapeshifter> and, isn't it a bit of a waste of ressources to display a 3200x480 picture all the time?
Nov 20 19:55:37 <Shapeshifter> ali1234: I see, thanks.
Nov 20 19:55:41 <Jaffa> ali1234: Outline it on maemo-developers or (and I hate to say this) maemo.org/brainstorm/
Nov 20 19:55:45 <Shapeshifter> any preffered format? png?
Nov 20 19:55:53 <Shapeshifter> and, can it do SVG?
Nov 20 19:56:19 <javispedro> preffered format should be pvr.
Nov 20 19:56:27 <javispedro> other than that, png.
Nov 20 19:56:33 <javispedro> svg for a fixed resolution is wasteful at best.
Nov 20 19:56:34 <Shapeshifter> javispedro: okay
Nov 20 19:56:43 <Stskeeps> javispedro: got my mail?
Nov 20 19:56:52 <javispedro> Stskeeps: yep, will read soon.
Nov 20 19:56:59 <javispedro> and thanks.
Nov 20 19:57:14 <Stskeeps> k
Nov 20 19:57:27 <Stskeeps> javispedro: my status of those is a kernel panic but at least it doesn't error out.
Nov 20 19:57:30 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 20 19:57:47 <javispedro> ouch.
Nov 20 19:57:52 <javispedro> so I better grab the charger.
Nov 20 19:58:15 * Stskeeps needs a proper upnp media server
Nov 20 20:00:26 <PaulFertser> What is also strange is that maemo doesn't seem to be widely accepted. All PDAs were using OPIE or GPE, now it's E's Illume or Xfce, lxdm in favour. If maemo is really good why didn't it attract developers who use other (than nokia's) devices like iPAQs, Zauruses etc?
Nov 20 20:00:56 <javispedro> are you saying we come from a nokia/symbian background?
Nov 20 20:01:16 <GeneralAntilles> Shapeshifter, 4 small ones (and a .desktop if you can swing it) on PR1.0, you can use one large one in PR1.1 (it'll automatically slice it up)
Nov 20 20:01:31 <javispedro> now you have challenged the honor of my family!
Nov 20 20:01:38 <javispedro> ;)
Nov 20 20:01:42 <GeneralAntilles> PaulFertser, because Maemo isn't designed to run on different hardware
Nov 20 20:01:42 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: There are lots of ex-devs from those platforms.
Nov 20 20:01:52 <GeneralAntilles> and most of those devices don't have the resources to run Maemo well
Nov 20 20:01:57 <GeneralAntilles> either way, please see Mer.
Nov 20 20:01:59 <GeneralAntilles> ~mer
Nov 20 20:02:00 <Stskeeps> PaulFertser: because E/Illume is where mobile distributions go to die
Nov 20 20:02:07 <GeneralAntilles> infobot!
Nov 20 20:02:11 <infobot> somebody said mer was http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer
Nov 20 20:02:12 <javispedro> infobot: ping
Nov 20 20:02:14 <infobot> ~pong
Nov 20 20:02:22 <Stskeeps> PaulFertser: besides that, even intel tried to tame Maemo/Hildon and they failed at it
Nov 20 20:03:27 <PaulFertser> GeneralAntilles: linux wasn't designed to run on anything except i386 too.
Nov 20 20:04:32 <Milo-> PaulFertser yet it's 2^63-1 times better as 64bit platform than windwos
Nov 20 20:04:38 <Milo-> windows, even.
Nov 20 20:05:03 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: And so look at Mer to see where Maemo can go.
Nov 20 20:05:16 <javispedro> mergotchi!
Nov 20 20:05:25 <PaulFertser> Jaffa: i know. But many attempts to actually use Mer on other devices come nowhere for whatever reason...
Nov 20 20:05:38 <Stskeeps> FR doesn't count
Nov 20 20:05:39 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 20 20:05:45 <PaulFertser> Stskeeps: what does?
Nov 20 20:06:06 <GeneralAntilles> Something that has real hardware.
Nov 20 20:06:07 <Stskeeps> FR was a special case cos we had to deal with armv4t and our stuff wasn't compatible with debian stable :P
Nov 20 20:06:18 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: Where was Linux in terms of platforms and devices a couple of years into its dev?
Nov 20 20:06:26 <PaulFertser> It's also horrifying to see nokia use maemo again instead of mer.
Nov 20 20:06:33 <Stskeeps> (OBS only takes in stable versions)
Nov 20 20:06:47 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: Then you don't understand Maemo, Nokia, mobile devices, consumer electronics *or* Mer.
Nov 20 20:07:02 <PaulFertser> Jaffa: or life
Nov 20 20:07:05 <Stskeeps> PaulFertser: nah, mer is too immature for that big scale. we happened a little before fremantle first prealpha
Nov 20 20:07:42 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: I've no idea about your life. But when the project leader for Mer doesn't agree, and has now been employed by Nokia to work on it; perhaps you should listen more than lecture? ;-)
Nov 20 20:07:54 * RST38h sighs: not the absolute open source argument again
Nov 20 20:08:11 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: for good measure, paid by nokia, not employee. self-employed in own company
Nov 20 20:08:13 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 20 20:08:17 * lardman|afk pokes his head in on the way to another glass of wine and agrees :)
Nov 20 20:08:20 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: Indeed. Even better.
Nov 20 20:08:23 <PaulFertser> RST38h: nope, you mistreat technology advantages for religios ones.
Nov 20 20:08:33 <javispedro> RST38h: yes! BOTH the morning and the afternoon "not enough free" discussion!
Nov 20 20:08:40 <RST38h> Me? Religious advantages?
Nov 20 20:08:42 <javispedro> and the evening, fwiw!
Nov 20 20:08:50 <PaulFertser> RST38h: you see where maemo went: nowhere. It remained a semi-open platform for nokia devices only. Not gaining community acceptance.
Nov 20 20:09:00 * RST38h hails the Tentacled One, who has definitely claimed another victim just now
Nov 20 20:09:05 * Jaffa boggles at so much energy being poured into slamming Nokia for imagined or hypothetical problems, whilst totally ignoring the easily documentable current problems which are still ongoing.
Nov 20 20:09:07 <PaulFertser> RST38h: to me it looks like a strong argument against "the way" nokia chooses.
Nov 20 20:09:16 <Stskeeps> PaulFertser: i still believe what people -really- want is Maemo, though.
Nov 20 20:09:28 <Stskeeps> quality mobile platform
Nov 20 20:09:34 <PaulFertser> Stskeeps: if by people you mean "lusers" then probably yes.
Nov 20 20:09:47 <lardman|afk> most people are lusers really
Nov 20 20:09:49 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: Past tense? When Nokia are launching the most mainstream-focused Maemo device, which has had more commercial interest than any of the prior devices? I think you're smoking something.
Nov 20 20:09:51 * Stskeeps twitches
Nov 20 20:09:52 <PaulFertser> Stskeeps: if by people you mean fellow developers, then probably you're wrong.
Nov 20 20:09:53 * RST38h does not see why Maemo should "go" somewhere else
Nov 20 20:10:04 <RST38h> It is a Linux distribution made by Nokia to power Nokia mobile devices
Nov 20 20:10:14 <Shapeshifter> makin a wallpaper I realize just how huge the resolution of that device really is >.>
Nov 20 20:10:14 <Milo-> where is the download link for the latest maemo-sdk? O_o All I see is the 'release notes' :/
Nov 20 20:10:19 <javispedro> PaulFertser: I don't know if you think that Maemo wants to replace Debian... it does not.
Nov 20 20:10:27 <PaulFertser> Jaffa: (smoking something) i wish i did, probably i wouldn't have bothered you with "useless" questions then.
Nov 20 20:10:32 <RST38h> BTW, creating your own Linux distribution is no rocket science, you can always make your own and port it wherever you like
Nov 20 20:10:40 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: You aren't asking questions; you're making statements.
Nov 20 20:11:04 <PaulFertser> Jaffa: yep, that's my stupid way of asking questions, sorry for that, i'm too used to this habit :(
Nov 20 20:11:36 <Jaffa> Milo-: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Development_Environment/Maemo_SDK#Installing_SDK
Nov 20 20:11:38 <lardman> well tbh I'd prefer something that just works to hack on, doing e.g. DSP hacking. I want everything else to just work in a luser-like sense
Nov 20 20:11:42 <RST38h> PaulFertser: Now, if you are willing and able to make a Linux distro that will match Maemo functionality on a bunch of other mobile devices (let us say HTC ones) and give it away for free, I am all for it
Nov 20 20:11:53 <RST38h> PaulFertser: Start hacking.
Nov 20 20:12:02 <PaulFertser> RST38h: SHR is about to provide that.
Nov 20 20:12:10 * Stskeeps twitches again
Nov 20 20:12:22 <lardman> ~SHR
Nov 20 20:12:23 <infobot> methinks shr is The Stable Hybrid Release (SHR), intended to be a community driven distribution composed of the FSO and some basic applications, that can be configured to use several different graphical toolkits, for example GTK or EFL. SHR is based on the FSO build. At first, SHR was introduced in order to use the Openmoko2007.2 GTK software in combination with the new FSO, but things have changed.
Nov 20 20:12:26 <RST38h> PaulFertser: If you are just making grand statements about how software is supposed to be free, I suggest you stuff it for now.
Nov 20 20:12:40 <Milo-> Jaffa how come there isn't link to that in the Maemo5-sdk's 'downloads' page?
Nov 20 20:12:43 <PaulFertser> RST38h: but maemo is not. Maemo is semi-open platform to run on nokia devices only.
Nov 20 20:12:51 <Milo-> I would assume that it would be the most logical place for it ._·
Nov 20 20:13:01 <RST38h> Paul: Fine with me.
Nov 20 20:13:06 <Jaffa> Milo-: I found that from http://maemo.org/development/ - Forum Nokia confuses me; hopefully because I'm just not used to it.
Nov 20 20:13:25 * RST38h feels comfortable using semi-open platform on Nokia devices
Nov 20 20:13:35 <RST38h> Are there any problems with that?
Nov 20 20:13:42 <Jaffa> RST38h: +1
Nov 20 20:13:49 <Milo-> https://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=528 I expected it to be _here_
Nov 20 20:13:56 <lardman> hmm, /me remembers why he was cursing the browser opening code
Nov 20 20:14:11 * lbt_ would would be happier if he could get any contacts onto his flippin phone...
Nov 20 20:14:19 <Jaffa> And when Nokia help transition bits of it to provide a fully open platform for use on Nokia (and non-Nokia) devices in the form of Mer; I wonder how anyone can complain about the freedom much.
Nov 20 20:14:26 <javispedro> PaulFertser: oh no, not "it's not truly open" again. Do yo thing we don't know that? It's been repeated for the 52405234th time!
Nov 20 20:14:42 <Jaffa> Milo-: I've never seen that before in my life! :-/
Nov 20 20:14:42 <PaulFertser> RST38h: lack of portability, also improper priorities. If some hackers want to use it on other devices, nokia won't probably accept the patches because they'd be conflicting with either their "business stratagy" or their "great future plans".
Nov 20 20:14:45 * RST38h would actually like ot know how he can mass-edit contacts in Fremantle. Is there a file?
Nov 20 20:14:46 <javispedro> s/thing/think
Nov 20 20:15:03 <RST38h> PaulFertser: Who are these "some hackers" and why should I care?
Nov 20 20:15:17 <RST38h> PaulFerster: You are some hacker => you care.
Nov 20 20:15:21 <javispedro> RST38h: there's an API. the file is either a berkeley db or whatever evolution uses these days.
Nov 20 20:15:22 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: Well, there haven't been a large number of patches to Maemo; but mine to Hildon Application Manager were accepted; as were qwerty12's
Nov 20 20:15:22 <qwerty12_N810> /topic Welcome to #maemo | http://maemo.org | http://maemo.nokia.com | Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council | http://mxr.maemo.org | http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | Maemo-Barcelona Long Weekend - Registrations open - http://tinyurl.com/ydv6p62 | FIRMWARE IS HERE AT LAST! http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php | No, Maemo is no fully open. No, we could not give a shit; GTFO.
Nov 20 20:15:24 <Stskeeps> PaulFertser: why bother putting a lot of stuff out publically on gitorious if they don't want patches?
Nov 20 20:15:24 <lbt> oi, Jaffa: leave the trolls alone and make fremantle contacts more open
Nov 20 20:15:39 <Milo-> "Using SDK on X86_64 is not supported" :(
Nov 20 20:15:40 <RST38h> javispedro: Any way to export it, then import back?
Nov 20 20:15:43 <derf> RST38h: This channel sounds more and more like tmo every day.
Nov 20 20:15:51 <javispedro> Milo-, SDK works on amd64 fine.
Nov 20 20:15:56 <RST38h> derf: Well, they filter in
Nov 20 20:16:12 <derf> I had hoped it was safe. I've never read tmo for a reason.
Nov 20 20:16:12 <qwerty12_N810> Jaffa: Hell, the category view in Maemo 5's HAM wouldn't be the same w/out your work
Nov 20 20:16:33 <PaulFertser> lbt: i'm not trolling per se, just trying to understand more about the life by the way of arguing (which is assumed to lead to truth).
Nov 20 20:16:35 <RST38h> javispedro: 'cause I basically need to replace "8" for "+7" in half the numbers
Nov 20 20:16:58 <RST38h> Paul: I do not think you are trying to understand life here
Nov 20 20:17:17 <javispedro> RST38h: dunno, I've never read the actual API itself. I'd guess there should be an easy way to export vcards though.
Nov 20 20:17:18 <PaulFertser> RST38h: well, probably i'm lying to myself but at least i'm being honest.
Nov 20 20:17:22 <RST38h> Proselytizing to the wrong audience, yes, that you do
Nov 20 20:17:38 <RST38h> Paul: Lying to yourself is not being honest
Nov 20 20:18:00 <PaulFertser> RST38h: if i believe my lies myself, it is.
Nov 20 20:18:13 <Milo-> eww
Nov 20 20:18:16 <Milo-> requires dpkg
Nov 20 20:18:41 <lbt> PaulFertser: there's a very fine line between debate and ... other things
Nov 20 20:18:45 <RST38h> Paul: You can make yourself believe that the flame does not burn you, but any medic will readily confirm that you get burned
Nov 20 20:19:12 <lbt> and anyway, my personal needs for contact sync take precedence over anything else I care about right now :)
Nov 20 20:19:18 <RST38h> Paul: So, if you would like ot continue being delusional, that is your right. Just do not get us into this
Nov 20 20:19:38 <javispedro> Milo-: yeah, if you don't want to extract the packages somehow you'll have to build from source. dpkg-deb at least should be easily installable.
Nov 20 20:20:15 <RST38h> (besides, most of us probably heard these arguments a zillion times, so you are being boring)
Nov 20 20:20:33 <PaulFertser> RST38h: but i think that is not about delusions. UNIX was a success exactly because it could run on many different architectures. So was the case with Linux, also it's openness contributed.
Nov 20 20:20:36 <Milo-> just dpkg, gentoo doesn't add unnecessary garbage to the packagenames :)
Nov 20 20:20:59 <javispedro> Milo-: dpkg-deb is an actual application.
Nov 20 20:20:59 <Milo-> it's not a problem to compile from sources
Nov 20 20:21:12 * RST38h sighs again: UNIX has been developed in AT&T labs, paid by big motherfucking Phone Company, for Cthulhu's sake
Nov 20 20:21:30 <Stskeeps> PaulFertser: i don't dispute that having maemo on multiple devices would be good for the platform. that's what we're trying to move Maemo towards using Mer.
Nov 20 20:21:32 <javispedro> Milo-, it definitely is. To build sbox you'll probably need even more debian tools...
Nov 20 20:21:35 <PaulFertser> But it was given away to the universities for free. And it was portable enough.
Nov 20 20:21:43 <RST38h> You think your MGTS is evil? Well, AT&T is like 3 times more evil than that
Nov 20 20:21:45 <Milo-> debian is evil, mkay
Nov 20 20:21:56 <microlith> ebil
Nov 20 20:22:38 <Jaffa> Milo-: There's a virtual image; or if you isntall Scratchbox you can probably do the rootstraps into it on Gentoo. Dunno, I compiled my own Linux distro once and it wasn't Gentoo ;-)
Nov 20 20:22:39 <PaulFertser> Stskeeps: you're trying. But nokia doesn't seem to really want that or else they've put enough resources long time ago.
Nov 20 20:22:54 <javispedro> Milo-: your problem is installing to Gentoo, not amd64. i'm sure there's some tutorials out there.
Nov 20 20:23:08 <Milo-> javispedro how so ?
Nov 20 20:23:09 <RST38h> Ok. Nokia does not want that. So?
Nov 20 20:23:33 <Milo-> E: CPU transparency method 'qemu-arm-sb' not found.
Nov 20 20:23:35 <PaulFertser> RST38h: so that's the reason "maemo" sucks, i.e. "cool hackers" do not like it for a reason.
Nov 20 20:23:40 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: It's a journey. They're a big company. Maemo is now key to their strategy (and based on where it's come from) and they pay Stskeep to work on Mer and help move Maemo out onto other devices and bring other distros on to their hardware.
Nov 20 20:23:41 <Milo-> whee, next error :)
Nov 20 20:23:56 <RST38h> Paul: Ok, "cool hackers" hate Maemo. Because Maemo sucks them.
Nov 20 20:23:59 <Jaffa> PaulFertser: Trust us, if you really want to learn - and are asking questions by arguing - we know more than you.
Nov 20 20:24:00 <PaulFertser> Jaffa: if it's really the case, that's nice to hear.
Nov 20 20:24:06 <ali1234> maemo is still better than android
Nov 20 20:24:09 <RST38h> Paul: Why would anyone care?
Nov 20 20:24:19 <ali1234> plenty of that is closed too
Nov 20 20:24:36 <PaulFertser> ali1234: android is not *nix at all, so it's out of the consideration.
Nov 20 20:24:44 <Jaffa> ali1234: Android SDK and dev tools are better; but Maemo is getting there. High hopes for "SDK for Maemo 6 developers" (compared with the "Maemo 6 platform SDK")
Nov 20 20:24:45 <ali1234> of course it is
Nov 20 20:24:53 <microlith> PaulFertser: not in the userspace, no
Nov 20 20:24:54 <PaulFertser> RST38h: if you do not care about the fellow developers, well, i'm ok with that.
Nov 20 20:25:06 <RST38h> PaulFertser: WAIT. STOP
Nov 20 20:25:09 <javispedro> well yeah, the user space is pretty unixy. it's not gnu though.
Nov 20 20:25:28 <RST38h> PaulFertser: I care about fellow developers. I care about qwerty12, lcuk, VDVsx, javispedro et al
Nov 20 20:25:33 <PaulFertser> javispedro: the libc is not posix-compatible. There's no X. etc.
Nov 20 20:25:42 <microlith> Jaffa: my working knowlege of GTK/QT development is more readily applicable to Maemo development, that's way better than any SDK :)
Nov 20 20:25:46 <RST38h> PaulFertser: I do not care about your 'cool hackers'. As far as I know, nobody cares about them but you =)
Nov 20 20:25:50 <PaulFertser> RST38h: oh, sorry, my english is too bad to express my thoughts properly.
Nov 20 20:25:57 <Jaffa> microlith: True; that's its one BIG plus point :)
Nov 20 20:26:00 <ali1234> Jaffa: i really don't like the android sdk, mainly because of eclipse
Nov 20 20:26:07 <RST38h> Cooling down and thinking logically may help =)
Nov 20 20:26:16 <Jaffa> ali1234: Fair enough; welcome to Maemo ;-)
Nov 20 20:26:22 <javispedro> PaulFertser: linux's libc is not posix either, and I guess you knew that.
Nov 20 20:26:36 * Jaffa likes Eclipse (for all its faults), but then he works with it on a daily basis
Nov 20 20:26:55 <javispedro> s/linux's libc/glibc
Nov 20 20:26:56 <microlith> iirc, isn't Android using uClibc?
Nov 20 20:27:05 <PaulFertser> RST38h: by fellow developers i mean all the developers who work with love and passion. And there's plenty of those in the free software "community".
Nov 20 20:27:09 <ali1234> microlith: yes
Nov 20 20:27:13 <javispedro> I think android uses Bionic, at least for user space apps.
Nov 20 20:27:19 * RST38h takes out obligatory brown bag at the mention of Eclipse
Nov 20 20:27:26 <Jaffa> RST38h: yay! :)
Nov 20 20:27:37 <Milo-> I think I have all the depencies now
Nov 20 20:27:40 <Milo-> lets see..
Nov 20 20:27:43 * Jaffa goes to have a sit down and a nice cup of tea; and watch FlashForward.
Nov 20 20:27:46 <RST38h> PaulFertser: I can attest for love and passion. I can only observe things people do.
Nov 20 20:28:06 <RST38h> PaulFertser: Now, maybe your loving and passionate developers are really cool, I dunno
Nov 20 20:28:14 * javispedro hates everyone and has no passion. feel no mercy!
Nov 20 20:28:35 <RST38h> PaulFertser: All I know is that you can't show much stuff they have created
Nov 20 20:28:59 <RST38h> PaulFertser: As for the list I have given above, all I need to do is go to Maemo Downloads and check their stuff
Nov 20 20:29:01 <PaulFertser> RST38h: i think the GNU Project is enough for an evidence.
Nov 20 20:29:24 <RST38h> Is GNU Project a piece of software?
Nov 20 20:29:31 <ali1234> hell, maemo-extras is enough evidence
Nov 20 20:29:45 <ali1234> only a very small amount of it was written specifically for maemo
Nov 20 20:29:52 <PaulFertser> RST38h: it's a project to create a Unix-like OS.
Nov 20 20:30:04 <RST38h> Paul: And when can we see such an OS?
Nov 20 20:30:26 <Proteous> damnit amazon, stop lowering the price of the n900
Nov 20 20:30:38 <RST38h> Proteous: getting close to $370? ;)
Nov 20 20:30:44 <PaulFertser> RST38h: GNU/Linux is here. Unfortunately, Hurd is not exactly successful.
Nov 20 20:30:58 <RST38h> Paul: I know Linux. I do not know GNU/Linux
Nov 20 20:31:14 <PaulFertser> RST38h: hm, strange, what userspace do you use then?
Nov 20 20:31:28 <Shapeshifter> PaulFertser: does it matter
Nov 20 20:31:28 <RST38h> And Linux, as we know it, is only here because huge corporations are paying people to develop its parts.
Nov 20 20:31:32 <Shapeshifter> PaulFertser: no it doesn't.
Nov 20 20:31:32 <Proteous> the magic price where I buy one is higher than that
Nov 20 20:31:35 <RST38h> Paul: Me? I use FreeBSD :)
Nov 20 20:31:46 <ali1234> hahaha i was just about to say "probably bsd"
Nov 20 20:32:11 <GeneralAntilles> javispedro, hate you too. </3 :)
Nov 20 20:32:42 <RST38h> Paul: So, to summarize, "GNU Project" is about putting the GNU tag on somethign other people developed and also developing vaporware for decades
Nov 20 20:32:53 <ali1234> RST38h: please tell me where i can find a huge corporation for the drivers i wrote?
Nov 20 20:32:55 <RST38h> Paul: Should I remind you about AvtoVAZ again? ;)
Nov 20 20:33:00 <PaulFertser> RST38h: i do not thing this claim is backed up by anything.
Nov 20 20:33:27 <RST38h> Paul: Which claim?
Nov 20 20:33:38 <PaulFertser> RST38h: GNU Project is vapourware
Nov 20 20:34:27 <RST38h> Paul: Do I see Hurd being used in the open? No.
Nov 20 20:34:33 <RST38h> Vaporware then.
Nov 20 20:34:43 <PaulFertser> RST38h: Hurd is only the kernel.
Nov 20 20:34:51 <PaulFertser> RST38h: OS is more that that
Nov 20 20:35:16 <RST38h> Do I see Hurd kernel being used in the open? No.
Nov 20 20:35:19 <RST38h> Vaporware again.
Nov 20 20:35:30 * PaulFertser wonders who's being a troll here
Nov 20 20:35:32 <PaulFertser> ;)
Nov 20 20:35:32 <RST38h> BTW, I see Linux being used
Nov 20 20:35:33 <ali1234> this argument is dumb. i want to know where i get my huge-corporation-money please.
Nov 20 20:35:52 <RST38h> But the GNU People page (http://www.gnu.org/people/) does not even mention Linux
Nov 20 20:36:15 * microlith wonders if RST38h is being serious
Nov 20 20:36:23 <RST38h> microlith: hush ;)
Nov 20 20:36:50 * kirma sees his future phone being active and moving around
Nov 20 20:37:03 <kirma> too bad it's not going to move as far as to me before monday :I
Nov 20 20:37:06 <microlith> kirma: not on its own I hope :o
Nov 20 20:37:14 <javispedro> yes, n900 is people!
Nov 20 20:37:42 <kirma> microlith: UPS tracking...
Nov 20 20:38:01 <microlith> huh
Nov 20 20:38:13 <microlith> good to see my sept. 3rd preorder is coming up for naught
Nov 20 20:38:46 <kirma> you have evidence of that? :)
Nov 20 20:39:17 <microlith> what, that I placed it or that it's going nowhere?
Nov 20 20:39:20 <kirma> I'm pretty convinced I'm getting the toy on monday - just slightly disappointed they couldn't have started shipping yesterday, would have made here before weekend.
Nov 20 20:40:00 <kirma> microlith: ehm, parse error. misread you somehow
Nov 20 20:40:03 * Shapeshifter is expecting his device mid december.
Nov 20 20:40:06 <microlith> I'd like mine before thursday, four days to play with it would be great
Nov 20 20:40:07 <Shapeshifter> -.-
Nov 20 20:40:17 <RST38h> Shapeshifter: next december?
Nov 20 20:41:29 <Shapeshifter> RST38h: if all goes well >.>
Nov 20 20:45:46 <ShadowJK> Well, nokia shop fi sort of half-way charged my cc... I hope that means I get it next friday :)
Nov 20 20:46:30 <frals> glad im a swede, dont have to worry about it shipping anytime soon ;)
Nov 20 20:46:49 <ShadowJK> lol
Nov 20 20:47:04 <kirma> shadowjk: did you receive email about it?
Nov 20 20:47:06 <Shapeshifter> forums being entertaining again, from "nyc now shipping" thread: "Ok guys, just got my phone. Here's what I found out from the Nokia store. he nasty woman at the store is the manager."
Nov 20 20:47:06 <ShadowJK> some of the stores in .fi ships to sweden too :)
Nov 20 20:47:07 <ShadowJK> kirma, nope.
Nov 20 20:47:25 <Shapeshifter> *the
Nov 20 20:47:34 <kirma> Subject: Nokia Online Kauppa Tilausvahvistus <...>
Nov 20 20:48:02 <frals> yeah ShadowJK, but i recon by the time i can get one from a finnish store it should be like a week until it launches here, hopefully ;-)
Nov 20 20:48:12 <frals> otherwise ill just jump on a tallink boat to helsinki :D
Nov 20 20:48:43 <qwerty12_N810> Now there's your hardcore N900 fan :p
Nov 20 20:48:51 <ShadowJK> kirma, that's not fair :(
Nov 20 20:49:06 <ShadowJK> how come my visa status says -800 and no order confirmation D:
Nov 20 20:49:41 <kirma> if I were you I'd have called them... already :I
Nov 20 20:49:48 <ShadowJK> lol
Nov 20 20:50:37 <kirma> their phone service is surprisingly helpful, if you ignore the fact they are eager to query names, phone numbers and stuff all the time
Nov 20 20:51:47 <kirma> qwerty12_N810: hardcore fan is the one that jumps from the boat when he figures out it's not available from shop here either
Nov 20 20:52:17 <qwerty12_N810> kirma: Hehe, I stand corrected
Nov 20 20:53:57 <ShadowJK> well, you can take the boat this weekend to figure out it's not available, and then the next weekend again
Nov 20 20:54:12 <ShadowJK> and then the third weekend, because the first two you enjoyed the beer on the all-you-can-eat-and-drink buffet too much
Nov 20 20:54:20 <ShadowJK> and forgot all about buying n900
Nov 20 20:55:21 <kirma> tell me about this "all you can drink" buffet place here, I want there too
Nov 20 20:55:45 <kirma> oh, on the boat you meant :)
Nov 20 20:57:46 <ShadowJK> yeah :)
Nov 20 21:03:58 <hrabbey> Here is a app idea, IF the n900 or other hardware supports it.  Have maemo act as a simulated bluetooth headset, allowing pair another cellphone and bluetooth mp3 or maybe a 3rd cellphone and mixing the audio streams together.  So can listen to mp3s while still not missing cellphone ringing / tones.
Nov 20 21:04:03 <hrabbey> (Yeah, why bother having another [work] cellphone or another mp3 player...  Just cause.)
Nov 20 21:07:41 <pupnik_> you want to listen to music on the phone, while talking
Nov 20 21:07:44 <pupnik_> next
Nov 20 21:07:55 <kirma> :)
Nov 20 21:08:34 <hrabbey> And record conversations without knowledge?  ...  ;-)
Nov 20 21:10:46 <GeneralAntilles> Could the -testing idiocy on the lists be more petulant and childish?
Nov 20 21:12:01 <aquatix> hrabbey: now that's a feature i want
Nov 20 21:12:01 <GeneralAntilles> I can't believe the Ovi Store gets first billing and it hasn't even been launched. http://europe.nokia.com/get-support-and-software/product-support/n900/software
Nov 20 21:13:09 <microlith> they should update their FAQ entry for the N900 regarding MMS
Nov 20 21:26:31 <wjt> what's the point of the droid fonts being in maemo extras? :)
Nov 20 21:27:13 <GeneralAntilles> wjt, I guess cause they're free and of reasonable quality.
Nov 20 21:27:22 <GeneralAntilles> I don't care for them myself, but to each his own, I suppose.
Nov 20 21:28:01 <wjt> i mean… i can only use them in the text editor, right? I can't make the whole UI use them.
Nov 20 21:28:28 <qwerty12_N810> wjt: Get to hacking the gtkrc of your favourite theme.
Nov 20 21:28:40 <wjt> Now, DejaVu Sans Mono in my terminals, I'm excited about!
Nov 20 21:29:06 * wjt mutters about packaging inconsolata
Nov 20 21:29:08 <wjt> qwerty12_N810: a fair point
Nov 20 21:30:02 <Macer> i should try running a vbox in a vbox just to see what happens
Nov 20 21:30:23 <bigbrovar> can anyone here confirm if the inbuilt IM for the N900 supports network proxy .. The one which came with N810 doesnt
Nov 20 21:30:31 <qwerty12_N810> Macer: Have more fun: VNC in VNC
Nov 20 21:30:44 <Macer> qwerty12_N810: going for that mirror in the mirror effect? :)
Nov 20 21:30:52 <wjt> bigbrovar: for xmpp? sadly not :(
Nov 20 21:30:59 <qwerty12_N810> Macer: That's the one :)
Nov 20 21:31:11 <Macer> i'm still trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with zimbra talking to gtalk
Nov 20 21:31:26 <Macer> my n810 seems to randomly disconnect from it also.. it's really starting to irritate me
Nov 20 21:31:33 <Macer> it just seems to lose it after a while of working fine
Nov 20 21:31:41 <bigbrovar> wjt: what!! :( so no gtalk, jabber? :S
Nov 20 21:31:46 <Macer> i'm about to check my vbox settings
Nov 20 21:31:59 <wjt> bigbrovar: no, we still didn't get proxy support, sorry :'(
Nov 20 21:32:19 * wjt →
Nov 20 21:32:30 <bigbrovar> wjt: what about using other IM plugin like msn, yahoo skype?
Nov 20 21:32:48 <GeneralAntilles> Telepathy extras are available in Extras-devel.
Nov 20 21:32:52 <GeneralAntilles> Skype is built-in.
Nov 20 21:33:02 <Jaffa> wjt: Droid Sans Mono in X Terminal is very nice even at small point sizes
Nov 20 21:33:07 <Macer> wow skype is built in?
Nov 20 21:33:08 <wjt> bigbrovar: the extra ones don't explicitly support proxies, but we could probably hack the telepathy-haze ones up to do so
Nov 20 21:33:11 <wjt> yeah!
Nov 20 21:33:13 <Macer> is it the call forwarding skype? or the real skype?
Nov 20 21:33:18 <Jaffa> GeneralAntilles: Yes, the petulance in -testing is very annoying. All this "they" eugh
Nov 20 21:33:19 <wjt> it's the real skype
Nov 20 21:33:25 <wjt> with a telepathy connection manager
Nov 20 21:33:27 <Macer> wjt: wow no kidding. that's pretty awesome
Nov 20 21:33:38 <GAN900> I need to put Monaco back on here.
Nov 20 21:33:38 <bigbrovar> GeneralAntilles: my question was whether skype supports proxy
Nov 20 21:34:01 <GAN900> Jaffa, feels like Talk
Nov 20 21:34:35 <GAN900> Jaffa, I guess these people went so long without anybody interfering in their p.
Nov 20 21:34:40 <GAN900> rocess. . . .
Nov 20 21:34:43 <bigbrovar> wjt: wow this is such a deal breaker for me.. I need proxy support :( ...
Nov 20 21:35:16 <bigbrovar> wjt:  seems to be an upstream problem?
Nov 20 21:35:57 * lbt kicks N900
Nov 20 21:36:14 <lbt> stupid communications device with no contacts
Nov 20 21:37:03 <bigbrovar> bigbrovar: 40% of the strongest point of the phone is the IM integration.. the thought that non of them work behind a network proxy just .. a let down .. I already pre-ordered one ..
Nov 20 21:37:47 <bigbrovar> wjt: are u awear of plans to fix this bug?
Nov 20 21:37:48 <ali1234> the haze (ie libpurple ones) can do, if you hack the .purple config, probably
Nov 20 21:38:18 <ali1234> even the desktop telepathy client, empathy, does not support proxies
Nov 20 21:38:44 <bigbrovar> ali1234: yeah I know..
Nov 20 21:39:06 <bigbrovar> ali1234: and am not sure there are plans to fix that anytime soon :(
Nov 20 21:39:14 <Shapeshifter> finished my first n900 wallpaper. It's way from perfect, but I learned something. http://stuff.moritzg.ch/karaExA.png
Nov 20 21:39:35 <Jaffa> bigbrovar: If the IM doesn't support proxies, I'll vote for the bug if you raise it/point me at it.
Nov 20 21:39:45 <Shapeshifter> it's panorama so it turns around at the end.
Nov 20 21:40:10 <bigbrovar> Jaffa: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718
Nov 20 21:40:11 <povbot> Bug 718: Supporting Jabber through proxy
Nov 20 21:40:57 <Shapeshifter> replace A with 1-4 to get 4 images.
Nov 20 21:41:34 <bigbrovar> Jaffa: I already voted for it.. this was a big filed since 770 in 2006
Nov 20 21:41:55 <ali1234> of course, i need socks proxy, not http, because my mobile provider blocks outgoing IMs whether they are http method or not
Nov 20 21:42:06 <Jaffa> bigbrovar: Indeed
Nov 20 21:42:18 <mdaum> Anybody know how to control the shutter speed on an N900?
Nov 20 21:42:23 <ali1234> so i need to run socks on localhost
Nov 20 21:42:43 <ali1234> (voted for it anyway)
Nov 20 21:42:47 <bigbrovar> Jaffa: sad to see it made it to the N900 proxy is very common esp in universities
Nov 20 21:43:24 <mikedep333> Shapeshifter, I eagerly look forward to having a phone with a scrolling home screen like that
Nov 20 21:43:29 <Jaffa> Of course, the term "deal breaker" is bandied around too often. It comes across too much (certainly on tmo) of people saying "if you don't fix this, I won't buy it - and I don't care about your prioritisation process because it's important to *me*" (of course, here it _is_ important; but it smacks of arrogance now in Maemo circles IMVHO)
Nov 20 21:43:37 <Jaffa> bigbrovar: US universities, I assume you mean.
Nov 20 21:44:05 <bigbrovar> Jaffa: and majority of N900 target audience are students in uni so we should expect a surge in the bug activity in term of votes
Nov 20 21:44:08 <Shapeshifter> mikedep333: I'll make more anime stuff. I haven't even got the phone myself :|
Nov 20 21:44:15 <ali1234> Jaffa: so we should buy things that don't work?
Nov 20 21:44:25 <javispedro> bigbrovar: get used to it and fix it by yourself. see eduroam.
Nov 20 21:44:26 <Jaffa> ali1234: No
Nov 20 21:44:30 <greenfly> if something is a deal breaker it would probably make sense to confirm whether that particular feature is in place /before/ money is exchanged
Nov 20 21:44:31 <javispedro> s/and/or
Nov 20 21:44:35 <ali1234> we should just not say anything then?
Nov 20 21:44:35 <bigbrovar> Jaffa: not just us, and but even most co-operate places
Nov 20 21:44:57 <bigbrovar> javispedro: ?!
Nov 20 21:44:58 * VDVsx remembers Darius and his "think tank" o_0
Nov 20 21:45:20 <mikedep333> I'm a university student. my university uses both cisco vpn for wi-fi, and WPA 2 TTLS-EAP PAP
Nov 20 21:45:32 <mikedep333> I don't believe I can do either of those on my nokia 5800 xpressmusic
Nov 20 21:45:34 <Jaffa> ali1234: My point is that on talk.maemo.org there are people registering just to say "Nokia should do $RANDOM, it's a deal breaker for me!". It's become a cliche, and it's become a cliche because the people doing it are arrogant enough to think a) I care; and b) that their one lost sale (which the "for me") bit emphasises is important.
Nov 20 21:45:47 <greenfly> you could always use the cellular data connection
Nov 20 21:46:05 <ali1234> Jaffa: if the number of people doing it is so high then maybe you should care? (or *somebody* should)
Nov 20 21:46:12 <Jaffa> ali1234: Now, lots of lost sales are going to be important to Nokia; I was trying to explain why "deal breaker" has entered some people in the Maemo community's lexicon under the "drinking game" category
Nov 20 21:46:20 <Jaffa> ali1234: Each person has a separate one
Nov 20 21:46:37 <greenfly> for some people, some particular UI decision is a "deal breaker"
Nov 20 21:47:14 <greenfly> IMO the difference between the maemo platform and a lot of others is that you actually have a chance to fix your own "dealbreaker" problems
Nov 20 21:47:20 <javispedro> exactly.
Nov 20 21:47:25 <greenfly> (and without learning Java!)
Nov 20 21:47:38 <javispedro> that's what impressed me about the platform and the single reason I'm still here.
Nov 20 21:48:37 <qwerty12_N810> javispedro: Not because of the lovely community? *sniff*
Nov 20 21:48:43 <greenfly> heh
Nov 20 21:48:44 <Jaffa> And I've got into trouble before for trying to explain why one bit of the community thinks something, to someone who takes immediate umbrage, and so I'm not in the mood for it now :-/
Nov 20 21:49:13 <javispedro> qwerty12_N810: I hate you all, I've told you!! ;)
Nov 20 21:49:26 <greenfly> for what it's worth, if your connection allows SSH, you can always set up an SSH tunnel to act as a socks proxy
Nov 20 21:49:38 <qwerty12_N810> Fine: /ignore javispedro
Nov 20 21:49:42 <ali1234> greenfly: you can, but telepathy can't use it
Nov 20 21:49:43 <Jaffa> And, the great thing about the Maemo community this evening (random IRC rantage and -testing petulance aside) is that I'm now put off from doing the complex cross-posting thingy I was going to do; and instead go to bed and read and sleep. This is a Good Thing :)
Nov 20 21:49:50 <Milo-> great
Nov 20 21:50:01 <bigbrovar> Jaffa: any idea if pidgin has been ported to the N900 its usually my saving grace
Nov 20 21:50:09 <greenfly> ali1234: or, if your connection allows something like openVPN, you can set up a tunnel to a network that allows what you need
Nov 20 21:50:26 <greenfly> bigbrovar: yeah there's a package either in -devel or -testing
Nov 20 21:50:37 <ali1234> greenfly: that is exactly what i do (ssh socks proxy) but it only works with pidgin/libpurple and not telepathy/empathy/whatever
Nov 20 21:50:41 <greenfly> no Off The Record support yet, but the main bits are there
Nov 20 21:50:49 <Milo-> sdk-installer fails, if I have scratchbox -service started, tells me to close all scratchbox sessions, and if it's not started, it fails because it has to be started 8D
Nov 20 21:51:04 <greenfly> ali1234: you could set up an openvpn tunnel, perhaps
Nov 20 21:51:17 <greenfly> there's even an applet for it now
Nov 20 21:51:22 <ali1234> greenfly: i could do but that is several times more complicated
Nov 20 21:51:44 <greenfly> ali1234: well, I agree, the easiest thing is to try to get someone else to set it up :)
Nov 20 21:51:49 <greenfly> but the point is you have options
Nov 20 21:51:54 <ali1234> bad ones :(
Nov 20 21:51:54 <Milo-> Check for scratchbox sessions running...
Nov 20 21:51:56 <Milo-> E: You must close your other scratchbox sessions first
Nov 20 21:52:10 <greenfly> ali1234: perhaps reconsider your purchase if it's a really big problem
Nov 20 21:52:19 <ali1234> oh don't worry, i didn't pay for this thing
Nov 20 21:52:41 <bigbrovar> greenfly: Jaffa i would have to really on my 3g for IM part.  it would be cool to use wireless but hey .. cant have it all :) .. hope the issue is fixed one day
Nov 20 21:52:51 <Milo-> E: Scratchbox user's /dev is not properly set up. Couldn't read /dev/null.
Nov 20 21:52:51 <Milo-> E: Start scratchbox service with 'sudo /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl start'.
Nov 20 21:52:53 <Milo-> 8D
Nov 20 21:52:59 <ali1234> i barely use IM on it anyway, i'm more bothered by the fact that the same problem hits me on the desktop
Nov 20 21:53:03 <Milo-> how am I supposed to install it then? 8D
Nov 20 21:53:22 <Milo-> I can't have scratchbox-service STARTED and STOPPED at the same time 8Dd
Nov 20 21:53:25 <ali1234> but there i can just install pidgin, so meh
Nov 20 21:54:34 <greenfly> I think maemo5 might just be the thing that encourages me to learn python
Nov 20 21:54:38 <ali1234> Milo-: perhaps create /dev/null manually?
Nov 20 21:54:50 <Milo-> I do have /dev/null ._·
Nov 20 21:54:57 <Milo-> but not in scratchbox's place
Nov 20 21:55:01 <ali1234> Milo-: there's a different one "inside" scratchbox
Nov 20 21:55:02 <bigbrovar> ali1234: yep .. the good ole pidgin always works .. although lacks the integration and awesomeness of the default IM .. having all ur contacts (gtalk, skype etc) in one place
Nov 20 21:55:16 <ali1234> bigbrovar: yes, and it sucks on the small screen too
Nov 20 21:55:46 <greenfly> the integration I'm looking forward to is someone integrating dialcentral (ie. Call from Google Voice) into the main contact list
Nov 20 21:55:47 <bigbrovar> ali1234: but i dont think skype would be affected though ( yeah it sucks.. but at least it works :) )
Nov 20 21:56:27 <ali1234> Milo-: mknod /scratchbox/dev/null c 1 3
Nov 20 21:57:24 <Milo-> why does it upgrade scratchbox each time
Nov 20 21:57:39 <ali1234> "it?"
Nov 20 21:57:47 <Milo-> the installer..
Nov 20 21:57:53 <ali1234> oh. cos it's just a script?
Nov 20 21:58:08 <Milo-> should check if it's already done
Nov 20 21:58:37 <ali1234> i think on ubuntu it uses apt to install sbox, so if it's already there, it doesn't do it again
Nov 20 21:58:41 <ali1234> don't know about anything else
Nov 20 21:59:08 <Milo-> scratchbox is in portage too
Nov 20 21:59:27 <ali1234> yeah but god knows which version, or if it will still be the same version tomorrow
Nov 20 21:59:41 <Milo-> oh well
Nov 20 22:00:36 <Milo-> great, got further...
Nov 20 22:00:36 <Milo-> ERROR: Scratchbox is not properly set up!
Nov 20 22:00:36 <Milo-> E: Scratchbox command 'sb-conf setup' returned error 0.
Nov 20 22:00:36 <Milo-> 8D
Nov 20 22:01:30 <Milo-> ERROR: Not allowed to run this as root!
Nov 20 22:01:34 <Milo-> ah, no wonder
Nov 20 22:01:43 <Milo-> but the installer is required to be run as a root
Nov 20 22:02:13 <VDVsx> who said that the portrait more ins't in all apps: http://share.ovi.com/album/yerga.Maemo5portraitb
Nov 20 22:02:14 <VDVsx> hihi
Nov 20 22:03:03 <pupnik_> anybody got a zeemote ?
Nov 20 22:03:37 <woglinde> bye
Nov 20 22:03:52 <qwerty12_N810> VDVsx: Have you had any requests to make BlueMaemo support portrait mode? :p
Nov 20 22:04:27 <VDVsx> qwerty12_N810, not yet
Nov 20 22:04:29 <GeneralAntilles> BlueMaemo doesn't support portrait?
Nov 20 22:04:31 <GeneralAntilles> Deal breaker!
Nov 20 22:04:41 <VDVsx> qwerty12_N810, but some profiles will have portrait at least
Nov 20 22:04:42 <microlith> onoes
Nov 20 22:04:42 <VDVsx> :P
Nov 20 22:05:06 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, BlueMaemo will be the next think tank :P
Nov 20 22:05:38 <RST38h> BlueMaemo also does not send MMSes
Nov 20 22:05:48 <RST38h> Not gonna succeed without MMSes, no...
Nov 20 22:05:51 <qwerty12_N810> RST38h: WTF
Nov 20 22:06:01 <RST38h> what? 8)
Nov 20 22:06:02 <GeneralAntilles> NOK1A SUX
Nov 20 22:06:02 <qwerty12_N810> VDVsx: I want a refund, now!
Nov 20 22:06:11 <microlith> what do you mean I can't send low rez images at an inflated price?!
Nov 20 22:06:55 <Milo-> how am I supposed to run /opt/scratchbox/tools/bin/sb-conf ?
Nov 20 22:07:05 <VDVsx> qwerty12_N810, sorry you are not eligible for a refund :P
Nov 20 22:07:12 <Milo-> as root it says it can't be ran as root
Nov 20 22:07:25 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N810, in fact, if you want to send it back you gotta pay. :P
Nov 20 22:07:26 <Milo-> and as regular user, it says no permissions, even though it's chmodded properly :D
Nov 20 22:07:50 <qwerty12_N810> VDVsx: Gah, you Ageist :p
Nov 20 22:08:30 <hexa> for a new app should I use gtk/hildon or QT ?  dev guide seems to point to hildon/gtk.. but i'm confused with qt being maybe the future on maemo ?
Nov 20 22:09:16 <VDVsx> hexa, do you know both ?
Nov 20 22:09:52 <hexa> VDVsx, got more exp with glib but never really touched gtk.. so I guess neither..
Nov 20 22:10:23 <hexa> VDVsx, but I don't want to recode my gui in a year...
Nov 20 22:10:59 <VDVsx> hexa, IMHO Qt isn't ready yet for maemo5, there's some limitations, so you've to choose :D
Nov 20 22:12:27 <hexa> VDVsx, humm any doc on those limitations somewhere?
Nov 20 22:12:44 <Milo-> seriously? how is this supposed to be run as regular user?
Nov 20 22:12:45 <Milo-> Traceback (most recent call last):
Nov 20 22:12:45 <Milo->   File "/opt/scratchbox/tools/bin/sb-conf", line 10, in <module>
Nov 20 22:12:45 <Milo->     os.execv(chroot,[chroot,p.basename(sys.argv[0])]+sys.argv[1:])
Nov 20 22:12:45 <Milo-> OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
Nov 20 22:12:55 <VDVsx> hexa, probably, 1 sec
Nov 20 22:13:07 <Milo-> it makes a system call to chroot, which can only be accessed as root
Nov 20 22:13:20 <lbt> Milo-: you do know how sbox works?
Nov 20 22:13:30 <Milo-> yes, creates a chrooted environment
Nov 20 22:13:34 <lbt> intercepting system calls etc
Nov 20 22:13:35 <Milo-> it's a sandbox, sort of
Nov 20 22:13:58 <lbt> allowing it to divert calls to binaries of it's own choosing
Nov 20 22:14:02 <Milo-> lbt but I cannot install it, since it doesn't let me run the command as regular user
Nov 20 22:14:07 <Milo-> and it can't be ran us root
Nov 20 22:14:08 <lbt> playing fakeroot-like games
Nov 20 22:14:24 <lbt> *nod*
Nov 20 22:14:31 <VDVsx> hexa, some here: http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4_Hildon/Qt_Hildon_Widgets
Nov 20 22:14:52 <lbt> it's a very complex system.... not 'just an application'
Nov 20 22:15:04 <hexa> VDVsx, great thx :) I'll take a look
Nov 20 22:15:18 <lbt> you need to install it as the devs intended...
Nov 20 22:15:29 <VDVsx> hexa, there's probably more and some of the stuff there is already outdated since last maemo-Qt release
Nov 20 22:15:54 <hexa> VDVsx, yeah it's ok I'll search some more myself.. just wanted to get the feeling of the devs here...
Nov 20 22:15:59 <VDVsx> hexa, but if you have doubts, the people at #qt-maemo can help for sure
Nov 20 22:15:59 <hexa> VDVsx, thx :)
Nov 20 22:16:10 <hexa> VDVsx, ho good to know :)
Nov 20 22:16:22 <lbt> hexa: for me.... Qt
Nov 20 22:16:32 <lbt> but it isn't quite ready
Nov 20 22:16:57 <lbt> OTOH if you're learning... it'll be ready by the time your first app is ready for extras
Nov 20 22:17:49 <hexa> lbt, :) that's kinda was I was wondering :) so we're taling like 6 months not 2 years...
Nov 20 22:17:52 <Macer> damn. charlzie theron looks horrible in monster
Nov 20 22:17:58 <lbt> less
Nov 20 22:18:00 <Macer> those crazy make up artists can do anything
Nov 20 22:18:18 <hexa> lbt, k :) even better ,, I don't think I'll make it in less then 4..
Nov 20 22:18:25 <lbt> my guess is <3 months before Qt apps will be accepted into extras
Nov 20 22:18:35 <Macer> is like
Nov 20 22:18:41 <Macer> the n900 out yet? :)
Nov 20 22:19:12 <hexa> lbt, nice :) I'll really consider it then
Nov 20 22:19:19 <lbt> hexa: I'm not even sure that you *can't* put Qt in extras today. Core Qt is on the shipping image
Nov 20 22:19:37 * lbt must push Shopper
Nov 20 22:19:57 <Mek> with a beta qt4.6 in extras-devel promoting stuff without also promiting that qt4.6 beta would be hard though... :)
Nov 20 22:20:07 <hexa> lbt, but regardless of the distribution... the point is will I be able to do something comparable to hildon /gtk.. in like 3-6 months with qt..
Nov 20 22:20:16 <lbt> Mek: yes, I'm not up to date... :)
Nov 20 22:20:31 <lbt> hexa: you can do that already
Nov 20 22:20:49 <lbt> or do you mean personal learning curve
Nov 20 22:21:05 <hexa> lbt, nah I meant  qt status... nice :)
Nov 20 22:21:21 <lbt> Qt status is pretty much 1st class already
Nov 20 22:21:25 <hexa> guess I'll go qt then :)
Nov 20 22:21:41 <TomaszD> lbt looks like we'll meet again
Nov 20 22:21:46 <ali1234> how does the n900 backup tool work for "application list?" does it just save the list, and then install them again using apt?
Nov 20 22:21:48 <lbt> :)
Nov 20 22:22:10 <lbt> ali1234: think so...
Nov 20 22:22:20 <lbt> TomaszD: I'm not accepted yet
Nov 20 22:22:22 <ali1234> is it gonna break when my custom repo is not available?
Nov 20 22:22:25 <hexa> lbt, is there still something like a liscence to pay to do qt apps or something or is it all free now btw ? .. /me a bit out of date on it..
Nov 20 22:22:32 <lbt> ali1234: yes
Nov 20 22:22:33 <ali1234> i guess i'll find out in a minute...
Nov 20 22:22:43 <lbt> hexa: all LGPL
Nov 20 22:22:48 <TomaszD> lbt, but anyone can come, you're talking about sponsorship?
Nov 20 22:22:50 <tKMFDM> ali1234, i also makea  repo list
Nov 20 22:22:54 <hexa> lbt, k :)
Nov 20 22:22:55 <lbt> TomaszD: yes
Nov 20 22:22:56 <tKMFDM> i thought
Nov 20 22:22:57 <tKMFDM> or not
Nov 20 22:23:14 <ali1234> i think i'll just start again anyway
Nov 20 22:23:26 <lbt> ali1234: :)
Nov 20 22:23:36 <ali1234> does anyone know of a program for winmob which adds bluetooth contact sync without doing it one vcard at a time?
Nov 20 22:23:44 * lbt hasn't flashed yet as I wanted to sync my contacts
Nov 20 22:23:48 <TomaszD> lbt still got your Mer business card somewhere lol
Nov 20 22:23:57 <lbt> TomaszD: framed I hope!
Nov 20 22:24:12 <ali1234> i don't have anything to sync contacts with except my winmob phone which doesn't support contact syncing with anything but outlook, which i dont have
Nov 20 22:24:16 <TomaszD> of course, and bathed in golden leafs
Nov 20 22:24:26 <lbt> heh
Nov 20 22:24:46 <lbt> we should find a printer to setup to do them for team members
Nov 20 22:25:18 <TomaszD> anyways, I'll be contacting you once I get there to look for ice cream
Nov 20 22:25:33 <TomaszD> and kebab
Nov 20 22:25:33 <lbt> <grin> I look forward to it
Nov 20 22:26:29 <TomaszD> it's gonna be great. I wonder why Stskeeps isn't coming :P
Nov 20 22:27:18 <GeneralAntilles> Indeed
Nov 20 22:27:21 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps!
Nov 20 22:27:27 <TomaszD> he's asleep
Nov 20 22:27:34 <lbt> TomaszD: have to ask him ... maybe time?
Nov 20 22:27:52 <lbt> right
Nov 20 22:27:54 <TomaszD> and I should be sleeping too, I've got a rally to attend to tomorrow
Nov 20 22:27:56 * lbt needs sleep
Nov 20 22:28:02 <TomaszD> gotta wake up at 5 :(
Nov 20 22:28:13 <lbt> heh g'night all
Nov 20 22:28:17 * lcukn900 really needs sleep
Nov 20 22:28:21 <lcukn900> gnite lbt
Nov 20 22:28:25 * lbt leaves machine building
Nov 20 22:28:27 <TomaszD> gnite all
Nov 20 22:28:29 <lbt> night lcukn900
Nov 20 22:28:37 <qwerty12_N810> lcuk: So, instead, you come on IRC? =)
Nov 20 22:30:27 * lcukn900 is gonna write a scratchbox bible
Nov 20 22:30:43 <lcukn900> and nail that sucka once and forall
Nov 20 22:32:08 <pupnik_> mmh should be a nice night to try wlan
Nov 20 22:32:47 <javispedro> The Scratchbox bible in one sentence: you prayed the wrong god.
Nov 20 22:33:09 <lcukn900> wlan works great. i even found out last night ive got a great dongle with master mode
Nov 20 22:33:26 <lcukn900> lol javis
Nov 20 22:33:59 * qwerty12_N810 notes to never buy books authored by javispedro... they are anything but value for money
Nov 20 22:34:13 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, did you tried the app ? :D
Nov 20 22:34:33 <javispedro> qwerty12_N810: not my book! not my book! I'm just reviewing someone else's.
Nov 20 22:34:54 <qwerty12_N810> OK, OK, I take that back :p
Nov 20 22:35:01 <javispedro> thanks.
Nov 20 22:35:21 * javispedro writes a book about android fonts and ensures qwerty12_N810 will get a copy. 
Nov 20 22:35:26 <derf> qwerty12_N810: What are you talking about. The full text of his book was published online for free.
Nov 20 22:35:48 * lcukn900 would buy javiss book "opengl into the vertex"
Nov 20 22:36:37 <qwerty12_N810> derf: Lemme just go and put on my "Dunce" hat...
Nov 20 22:37:21 <lcukn900> id vote for android font book
Nov 20 22:37:46 <GeneralAntilles> VDVsx, refreshing. . . .
Nov 20 22:38:10 <qwerty12_N810> javispedro: It must have "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog"
Nov 20 22:38:42 <GeneralAntilles> VDVsx, repository is still trashed.
Nov 20 22:39:15 <javispedro> The lazy dog jumps over the quick brown fox, ok.
Nov 20 22:39:50 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, works here
Nov 20 22:40:25 <VDVsx> GeneralAntilles, ups, actually doesn't work :p
Nov 20 22:40:27 <GeneralAntilles> Akamai
Nov 20 22:41:17 <qwerty12_N810> Someone should upload a "make-the-fucking-repository-work" package and dch -i each time it messes up
Nov 20 22:41:42 <javispedro> the fact that's not standard debian would be tomorrow's dealbreaker
Nov 20 22:43:23 <SpeedEvil> I want slackware on my phone personally.
Nov 20 22:43:46 <javispedro> I want Haiku. Which IRC channel do I invade?
Nov 20 22:43:55 <javispedro> other than this one, of course :)
Nov 20 22:44:03 <pupnik_>  hm
Nov 20 22:44:16 <pupnik_> howdo i quit openarena?
Nov 20 22:46:41 * lcukn900 is pullin up home. bbl o/
Nov 20 22:48:01 <javispedro> bye lcuk
Nov 20 22:48:02 <javispedro> ouch.
Nov 20 22:50:17 <uhsf> have you seen the nokia n900 ad, i thought it was weird but kinda cool
Nov 20 22:56:10 <uhsf> i hate engadget so much, they always have to piss on everything linux and they're just retarded apple sellouts
Nov 20 23:08:36 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: not coming cos of thesis
Nov 20 23:12:17 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, blah blah blah.
Nov 20 23:19:49 <GeneralAntilles> RXrenesis8!
Nov 20 23:20:55 <RXrenesis8> mwah!
Nov 20 23:38:57 <javispedro> Dear Nokia, Please also include a pony with the N900, or else I'm not going to buy it.
Nov 20 23:40:11 <uhsf> unless they ever make an unlocked gsm n900 it's still just another suck phone
Nov 20 23:42:07 <greenfly> uhsf: ? the n900 is gsm and is unlocked
Nov 20 23:42:48 <uhsf> anyway it's not available in canada
Nov 20 23:42:52 <GeneralAntilles> uhsf, er, yeah, what greenfly said.
Nov 20 23:42:58 <GeneralAntilles> It's not really available anywhere, yet.
Nov 20 23:43:06 <GeneralAntilles> Except for two flagship stores in the US.
Nov 20 23:43:23 <ds3> are list prices available for the US (legit, nongraymarket)?
Nov 20 23:43:27 <lcuk> javispedro, including a piny would make the box a bit bigger and require additional FCC checks and air holes and stuff
Nov 20 23:43:54 <javispedro> dealbreaker!
Nov 20 23:43:57 <greenfly> lcuk: too bad, if Nokia doesn't include it, they will be out a few hundred bucks
Nov 20 23:44:21 <greenfly> which will take down their entire global operation
Nov 20 23:44:28 <uhsf> everywhere it's like nokia n900 now shipping to america. give me a f* break usa doen't mean america
Nov 20 23:45:07 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, $649 direct from Nokia.
Nov 20 23:45:23 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, Amazon has it for $479.99 with a $50 register-for-Ovi mail-in-rebate.
Nov 20 23:45:30 <wiretapped> n900 *does* include a pony, rtfm n00b
Nov 20 23:45:51 <GeneralAntilles> uhsf, nobody said "america".
Nov 20 23:45:56 <GeneralAntilles> uhsf, and it's not SHIPPING here.
Nov 20 23:46:09 <wiretapped> I've used two n900's now
Nov 20 23:46:14 <wiretapped> still don't know where i'm buying mine
Nov 20 23:46:28 <greenfly> the n900 is barely available in the flagship cities in the US, much less those states and definitely not in the rest of the US
Nov 20 23:46:31 <GeneralAntilles> uhsf, the two flagship stores in the US, apparently, got about 200 units apiece and have started selling them to people on the waitlist.
Nov 20 23:46:44 <GeneralAntilles> uhsf, so either chill out or leave.
Nov 20 23:47:08 <GeneralAntilles> Hey, ho, it worked!
Nov 20 23:47:10 <microlith> hey I think this place just got better
Nov 20 23:47:18 * GeneralAntilles puts the banhammer back up on the mantle.
Nov 20 23:47:28 <ds3> GA: thanks.
Nov 20 23:48:06 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, you ought to rip out the internals for your infernal machine. :P
Nov 20 23:48:11 <javispedro> this is not helping my chances of getting a DDP pony!
Nov 20 23:48:57 <GeneralAntilles> wiretapped, you aren't going to DDP, by the way?
Nov 20 23:49:30 <asdm> I have a N770 I enabled usb host mode and installed Carman app and i plugged in the USB OBD reader to the N770 its registers at address5 but i think  the porgram only reads bluetooth devices
Nov 20 23:49:30 <asdm> is there a way i can make the usb look like a bluetooth device to n770
Nov 20 23:49:43 <wiretapped> I'd like to get the DDP
Nov 20 23:49:49 <wiretapped> but i haven't got a reply
Nov 20 23:49:56 <wiretapped> just got the first mail saying i qualified
Nov 20 23:50:21 <GeneralAntilles> wiretapped, you check the eStore?
Nov 20 23:50:34 <GeneralAntilles> I didn't get any email, either, but the N900 suddenly appeared on the website.
Nov 20 23:50:39 <wiretapped> just when i signed up
Nov 20 23:50:40 <wiretapped> oh
Nov 20 23:50:44 <wiretapped> hmm
Nov 20 23:50:44 <wiretapped> checking now
Nov 20 23:50:51 <GeneralAntilles> https://pro.forum.nokia.com/productList.do
Nov 20 23:51:14 <Milo-> hmm, http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=327217 I'm getting exactly the same error, but I don't have vdso enabled in my kernel and therefore vdso cannot be disabled by echoing..
Nov 20 23:51:32 <GeneralAntilles> lol, N75 for €240.54 or N900 for €250.
Nov 20 23:51:32 <wiretapped> nope, N75 is the only device available to me there :(
Nov 20 23:51:33 <GeneralAntilles> Hrm
Nov 20 23:51:37 <GeneralAntilles> logged in?
Nov 20 23:51:39 <wiretapped> yeah
Nov 20 23:51:41 <GeneralAntilles> Try reloading a couple time.
Nov 20 23:51:52 <Milo-> and even though the date is from nearly 2 years ago, I'm trying to install maemo5-sdk, and that fails with exactly the same message
Nov 20 23:51:55 <Milo-> any help?
Nov 20 23:51:56 <GeneralAntilles> You Forum Nokia matches your maemo.org username, presumably?
Nov 20 23:52:18 <javispedro> Milo-, you don't have vdso? are you exactly sure?
Nov 20 23:52:25 <javispedro> s/vdso/randomized vdso
Nov 20 23:52:34 <wiretapped> no my maemo.org username is just my first name and that was already taken, so my forum nokia name is my email address (same email used for maemo.org)
Nov 20 23:52:44 <Milo-> searched kernel and it says VDSO=n
Nov 20 23:52:53 <GeneralAntilles> wiretapped, and when you emailed the DDP address you indicated such?
Nov 20 23:53:23 <wiretapped> yeah
Nov 20 23:53:25 <Milo-> I assume it's "Compat VDSO support"
Nov 20 23:53:26 <ds3> GA: if the 3G modem is unlock....
Nov 20 23:53:27 <GeneralAntilles> Hrm, odd.
Nov 20 23:53:28 <Milo-> and that I have disabled
Nov 20 23:53:32 <GeneralAntilles> Well, I'd suggest emailing them again.
Nov 20 23:53:54 <Milo-> oh
Nov 20 23:54:04 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, unlocked as in the carrier subsidy definition or not-a-blackbox definition?
Nov 20 23:54:04 <Milo-> glibc adds randomized VDSO
Nov 20 23:54:05 <ds3> what is annoying is almost every ~4" screen device with a fast ARM has at least one fatal flaw :(
Nov 20 23:54:06 <Milo-> did not know that
Nov 20 23:54:13 <javispedro> Milo-: Compat VDSO support is exactly what you need to _enable_
Nov 20 23:54:15 <ds3> GA: subsidy lock
Nov 20 23:54:28 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, they don't sell it subsidized through any carrier in the US as of yet.
Nov 20 23:54:31 <GeneralAntilles> So, yes, it's unlocked.
Nov 20 23:54:33 <Milo-> javispedro oh, I thought I needed to _disable_ it :o
Nov 20 23:54:34 <ds3> Oh
Nov 20 23:54:37 <RXrenesis8> €250, that's only $370... wow
Nov 20 23:54:49 <GeneralAntilles> (At that $479.99 price, by the way)
Nov 20 23:55:00 <ds3> the sales guy at the TMO store hints they may pickup the N900
Nov 20 23:55:07 <Milo-> javispedro I need to enable it so I can disable it? :)
Nov 20 23:55:08 <javispedro> Milo-: disable randomized vdso (which is what compat vdso does)
Nov 20 23:55:13 <Milo-> ah
Nov 20 23:55:20 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, so the rumors say, but I'm guessing that'll be next year some point.
Nov 20 23:55:27 <javispedro> Milo-: did you build sbox?
Nov 20 23:55:27 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, for now they're all free and clear. ;)
Nov 20 23:55:33 <Milo-> yes
Nov 20 23:55:36 <Milo-> login fails
Nov 20 23:55:41 <GeneralAntilles> RXrenesis8, you can get cool discounts, too, when you become a cool cat. :P http://maemo.org/profile/list/
Nov 20 23:55:44 <ds3> GA: problem is, my N800 is on its last legs and I need a hand held device
Nov 20 23:55:52 <ds3> so if I get one, it will not be torn apart
Nov 20 23:55:57 <javispedro> Milo-: in which case you may want to patch sbox's used glibc with
Nov 20 23:56:07 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, get two! :P
Nov 20 23:56:14 <javispedro> Milo-: http://lists.scratchbox.org/pipermail/scratchbox-devel/2009-August/000457.html
Nov 20 23:56:21 <ds3> GA: the other thing is the TMO guys won't tell me a straight story on if my current dataplan SIM will work
Nov 20 23:56:26 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, well, as an N800 owner from day 1, I can nothing but recommend the N900.
Nov 20 23:56:33 <GeneralAntilles> (been using it since September on AT&T)
Nov 20 23:56:43 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, Web'n'Walk?
Nov 20 23:56:46 <ds3> GA: does it have the 2 SD slots i.e. is it crippled like the N810?
Nov 20 23:56:55 <GeneralAntilles> 1 microSD slot
Nov 20 23:56:59 <GeneralAntilles> But it has 32GB built-in
Nov 20 23:57:00 <pupnik_> anybody see what cpu load pulse audio typically takes for speaker playback - always 17-18%?
Nov 20 23:57:02 <GeneralAntilles> So not as bad as it seems.
Nov 20 23:57:11 <ds3> oh 32G...how much of that 32G is usable?
Nov 20 23:57:30 <GeneralAntilles> 2GB is used for application installation space, 768MB for swap and the rest is free.
Nov 20 23:57:32 <ds3> is it like the 2G inside the 810? where 80%+ is used from day one
Nov 20 23:57:36 <Milo-> javispedro is that a patch to glibc or the scratchbox-toolchain-*-glibc?
Nov 20 23:57:44 <pupnik_> i just figured one could implement a 0.5ms delay to get a 1000hz notch filter
Nov 20 23:57:46 <GeneralAntilles> Well, um, there'll be some number of cached Ovi Maps maps in there, too.
Nov 20 23:57:49 <GeneralAntilles> But those can be removed.
Nov 20 23:57:53 <pupnik_> or maybe an inverted qms delay
Nov 20 23:57:55 <pupnik_> 1ms
Nov 20 23:57:58 <javispedro> Milo-: scratchbox-core/libs.
Nov 20 23:58:08 <javispedro> not any of the toolchains.
Nov 20 23:58:42 <javispedro> basically search for rtld.c somewhere in the sbox "core" tarball and patch that
Nov 20 23:58:52 <ds3> if I can get 16G free, I can tolerate it
Nov 20 23:59:27 <pupnik_> start filming video and watch it fill up
Nov 20 23:59:59 <pupnik_> the video isnt as wavy as with cheap phones, quite nice
Nov 21 00:00:29 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, I think the maps will be in the 500MB-1.5GB range.
Nov 21 00:00:29 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, it depends on region, though. That'd be my bet for US.
Nov 21 00:00:40 <ds3> fill up? surely, it has a real time compression through the DSP, right? :D
Nov 21 00:01:22 <ds3> GA: I was very disappointed at their demo maps; this is to the point where I much rather use maemo-mapper anyday
Nov 21 00:01:48 <GeneralAntilles> Maemo Mapper's being ported to Clutter
Nov 21 00:01:55 <GeneralAntilles> So it should be much friendlier on the N900.
Nov 21 00:02:01 <ds3> is the GSM module data only or did they bring out the mic and speaker so it can be used as a speaker phone?
Nov 21 00:02:03 <GeneralAntilles> Ovi Maps on the N900 sucks.
Nov 21 00:02:09 <GeneralAntilles> It's a cellphone.
Nov 21 00:02:16 <ds3> I am happy with the current Maemo mapper
Nov 21 00:02:20 <GeneralAntilles> Earpiece and everything.
Nov 21 00:02:27 <ds3> well... except for its choking on huge track files
Nov 21 00:02:31 <ds3> OHHHHHHH
Nov 21 00:02:32 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah
Nov 21 00:02:34 <Milo-> javispedro gah, gentoo provides binary packages only, so I guess I'll start this building from scratch ._·
Nov 21 00:02:36 <GeneralAntilles> Hardware will help with that.
Nov 21 00:02:42 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, which rock and where? :P
Nov 21 00:02:50 <javispedro> Milo-: don't understimate the task of building sbox.
Nov 21 00:02:53 <ds3> rock?
Nov 21 00:03:01 <GeneralAntilles> Have you been hiding under. ;)
Nov 21 00:03:08 <Milo-> javispedro well it seems like I will have to build it :)
Nov 21 00:03:17 <Milo-> only binaries available through portage
Nov 21 00:03:18 <javispedro> good luck.
Nov 21 00:03:23 <GeneralAntilles> If you've got a data plan appended to your voice plan with T-Mobile right now it should work fine.
Nov 21 00:03:32 <ds3> some big chunk in the easter island :D
Nov 21 00:03:41 <ds3> I got a data plan but no voice plan
Nov 21 00:03:47 <Pavlov> anyone made a google maps app for n900 yet?
Nov 21 00:03:48 <GeneralAntilles> Ah
Nov 21 00:03:56 <Milo-> javispedro simply turning on the VDSO in kernel would fix this though?
Nov 21 00:03:58 <Pavlov> one that doesn't take 15 minutes to start?
Nov 21 00:03:59 <GeneralAntilles> It should work fine
Nov 21 00:04:05 <GeneralAntilles> since you can just drop them SIM in
Nov 21 00:04:09 <ds3> can I export the EDGE/GPRS/3G/etc via the WiFi?
Nov 21 00:04:12 <GeneralAntilles> and they don't have any real way to know what device you're using.
Nov 21 00:04:13 <javispedro> Milo-: again, turning on compat VDSO == disabling randomizing VDSO
Nov 21 00:04:16 <javispedro> yes.
Nov 21 00:04:25 <GeneralAntilles> Not out of the box, but sure, that's something that can be setup easily enough
Nov 21 00:04:29 * lcuk burns vdso32=0 with fire
Nov 21 00:04:29 <ds3> GA: some TMO folks say I have to get a new plan for the 3G stuff and other says I am all set
Nov 21 00:04:32 <hardaker> Pavlov: an open street maps app existed for the n8xx devices, which would be better (IMHO) if that would get improvement.  needs routing though.
Nov 21 00:04:37 <GeneralAntilles> and I'm sure somebody will make a script or a nice utility to do it soon.
Nov 21 00:04:46 <ds3> GA: can it at least tether over BT?
Nov 21 00:04:46 <DrIDK> Is there any tutorial to install and make the hello word application with QT4 on the maemo5 SDK ?
Nov 21 00:04:49 <Milo-> well, boot and retry
Nov 21 00:04:51 <Pavlov> i mostly just want traffic and address searching
Nov 21 00:05:11 <ds3> the problem is will they be able to get the WiLink firmware to run the N900 in a mix AP/Client mode
Nov 21 00:05:17 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, not out of the box, but it's pretty trivial to setup. http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles
Nov 21 00:05:18 * lcuk just wants a helicopter
Nov 21 00:05:51 <javispedro> Dear Nokia. Please provide me a helicopter with my N900 or else you will lose quite a large chunk of the smartphone market.
Nov 21 00:05:55 <ds3> GA: did they bring out the S-Video or HDMI ports?
Nov 21 00:06:05 <GeneralAntilles> The 3.5mm jack is A/V
Nov 21 00:06:08 <GeneralAntilles> So, composite.
Nov 21 00:06:10 <lcuk> does the pony require travel sickness pills?
Nov 21 00:06:13 <GeneralAntilles> But it's the best looking composite I've ever seen.
Nov 21 00:06:13 <ds3> WHOA
Nov 21 00:06:17 <ds3> :)~~~~~~~
Nov 21 00:06:35 <ds3> it is a shame the Pico DLP doesn't support composite out of the box
Nov 21 00:06:36 <lcuk> ds3, video out is absolutely stunning
Nov 21 00:06:44 <andre__> hmm, helicopters... icecream machine would be cooler though.
Nov 21 00:06:54 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, VGBA looks really good on composite.
Nov 21 00:06:58 <lcuk> bacon grill is enough for me
Nov 21 00:06:59 * microlith wonders if he could borrow the reflow station at work to break out the dvi signals...
Nov 21 00:07:24 <lcuk> not exactly an end user friendly modification
Nov 21 00:07:27 <ds3> GA: I was looking for a portable way of getting a larger screen for the few rare cases I need it...i.e. show pictures at a camp site
Nov 21 00:07:31 <javispedro> icecream! dealbreaker!!
Nov 21 00:07:35 * lcuk usd to do smt repair
Nov 21 00:07:50 <ds3> it doesn't ahve to look good... Beagle Board composite quality is acceptable ;)
Nov 21 00:08:17 <lcuk> ds3, ive had it on portable projectors
Nov 21 00:08:47 <microlith> lcuk: 'course not, considering it'd require creation of a shim pcb to reroute those signals without altering the existing ones :>
Nov 21 00:08:49 <lcuk> adhoc kitty teasing device (he chased tux around the wall!
Nov 21 00:08:58 <ds3> lcuk: it depends... if you have a PicoDLP on hand....
Nov 21 00:09:37 <lcuk> why take a picodlp
Nov 21 00:09:46 <lcuk> dont you carry a 32" tv in your pocket?
Nov 21 00:09:57 <ds3> uh...err
Nov 21 00:10:01 <lcuk> you could pimp your camper van
Nov 21 00:10:08 <microlith> lcuk: the creases get distracting after a while...
Nov 21 00:10:16 <ds3> I like the Pico? :D
Nov 21 00:11:00 <lcuk> is that a pico in your pocket or are you just cold?
Nov 21 00:11:15 <ds3> heheh it doesn't get THAT hot ;)
Nov 21 00:11:38 * ds3 hides the dual opterons 
Nov 21 00:12:02 <lcuk> heh
Nov 21 00:12:06 * lcuk downloads new ubuntu
Nov 21 00:12:50 <ds3> anyone tried running the gvm on the N900?
Nov 21 00:13:00 <lcuk> whats gvm
Nov 21 00:13:07 <ds3> Garnet Virtual Machine
Nov 21 00:13:18 <lcuk> not me then
Nov 21 00:13:22 <ds3> the Palm emulator from Access that is in Beta on the older devices
Nov 21 00:13:37 <javispedro> qwerty12_N810 did.
Nov 21 00:13:45 <ds3> was it painful to install?
Nov 21 00:14:11 <ds3> the N900 seems like the ideal thing to replace the N800 tetering to a Treo
Nov 21 00:14:20 <ds3> but for legacy reasons, I need the palm stuff
Nov 21 00:15:35 <javispedro> three words: keep the palm.
Nov 21 00:15:47 <ds3> why?
Nov 21 00:15:55 <ds3> don't trust garnet?
Nov 21 00:16:08 <javispedro> don't.
Nov 21 00:16:29 <ds3> overall, I am happy with the GVM
Nov 21 00:16:44 <javispedro> well, if it works already for you...
Nov 21 00:17:05 <ds3> I just need the datebook/todo list/memo things
Nov 21 00:17:36 <javispedro> try them on your n800 before jumping.
Nov 21 00:17:58 <ds3> I did; it is just the expiration part that has me irked
Nov 21 00:19:27 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, Maemo 5 has calendar and todo.
Nov 21 00:19:31 <GeneralAntilles> They're not perfect, but they're workable.
Nov 21 00:19:40 <ds3> is it like the Gnome/KDE stuff?
Nov 21 00:19:54 <ds3> I have yet to find something that is as useable as the Palm stuff
Nov 21 00:19:57 <GeneralAntilles> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzdxID_mSlU
Nov 21 00:20:02 <javispedro> ds3: good luck...
Nov 21 00:20:18 <GeneralAntilles> Actually, all of these videos are pretty useful: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maemo5UITeam
Nov 21 00:20:32 <ds3> can't look at them at the moment
Nov 21 00:21:16 <Milo-> javispedro thank you :) the shell at least seems to work now
Nov 21 00:21:35 <GeneralAntilles> Overview looks like this http://wiki.maemo.org/images/thumb/1/15/Calendar.png/500px-Calendar.png
Nov 21 00:21:56 <simula> the vga out over video is sweet looking
Nov 21 00:22:11 <ds3> VGA out?!
Nov 21 00:22:16 <anprrrrr> hello guys
Nov 21 00:23:08 <GeneralAntilles> Damn that Jon Reece!
Nov 21 00:23:56 <ds3> GA: btw, the clear plastic version (less the buttons) is available for sale now
Nov 21 00:24:08 <GeneralAntilles> Ha, awesome.
Nov 21 00:24:09 <GeneralAntilles> Where?
Nov 21 00:24:29 <anprrrrr> anyone from the UK ?
Nov 21 00:24:32 <ds3> specialcomp but they been slow with listing the unit
Nov 21 00:24:43 <GeneralAntilles> anprrrrr, lots of folks.
Nov 21 00:24:50 <anprrrrr> any news ?
Nov 21 00:24:51 <ds3> got to mail them
Nov 21 00:25:10 <ds3> I also have them but I am mostly sold out (this is before listing it)
Nov 21 00:25:16 <GeneralAntilles> Worst part is the lowres LCD. :(
Nov 21 00:25:24 <ds3> *nod* working on fixing that
Nov 21 00:25:37 <GeneralAntilles> Wish the N810 LCDs were readily available at a reasonable price.
Nov 21 00:25:47 <ds3> other paying projects has been preempting a 800x480 version
Nov 21 00:27:34 <pupnik_> i never know whether to use MyDocs or MyDocs/.documents (which is annoying)
Nov 21 00:28:11 <ds3> with the higher speed of the 900, has anyone gotten a HP48 emulator working at a reasonable speed yet?
Nov 21 00:28:20 <ds3> i.e. x48
Nov 21 00:28:38 <pupnik_> ty GeneralAntilles for uiteam link
Nov 21 00:28:49 * lardman goes to bed
Nov 21 00:28:51 <lardman> night all
Nov 21 00:28:55 <javispedro> nite
Nov 21 00:29:02 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, haven't noticed if anybody's uploaded one.
Nov 21 00:29:11 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, Almost TI85 works like a charm, though. ;)
Nov 21 00:29:28 <ds3> well... I kind of like the stack
Nov 21 00:29:37 <ds3> it is like having an adding tape machine
Nov 21 00:30:04 <ds3> what puzzles me is the HP48 emulator works fine on a PXA270 device (Treo) but it chokes on the OMAP2 N800
Nov 21 00:31:06 <Dantonic> man where is the N900!!!! where is it??! AAAAAAAAH
Nov 21 00:31:15 <javispedro> in tmo.
Nov 21 00:31:46 * GeneralAntilles throws a wet towel over Dantonic.
Nov 21 00:32:07 <Dantonic> omg so tired of waiting :P
Nov 21 00:32:23 <microlith> such antsy people
Nov 21 00:32:28 <Dantonic> now my order on amazon says I have to wait until after December 25th!!!
Nov 21 00:32:33 <ds3> If everything people say is true, there is no point in getting an Archos 5 and reflashing it
Nov 21 00:32:37 <GeneralAntilles> Dantonic, next week seems to the current favorite.
Nov 21 00:32:42 <Dantonic> I hope so
Nov 21 00:32:55 <Dantonic> I'm debating re-ordering it to get the extra $50 rebate from nokia
Nov 21 00:33:12 <GeneralAntilles> Dantonic, my bet is that you'll be able to get it anyway.
Nov 21 00:33:35 <Dantonic> I'm on the phone with amazon right now actually.. on hold
Nov 21 00:33:37 <ds3> does the N900 use the microUSB charger a-la N810 or the standard Nokia chargers?
Nov 21 00:33:47 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, microUSB
Nov 21 00:33:51 <ds3> SIGH
Nov 21 00:33:54 <GeneralAntilles> The N810 used the standard Nokia charger, though.
Nov 21 00:33:54 <javispedro> what rock and where?
Nov 21 00:33:58 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, sigh indeed.
Nov 21 00:33:58 <Dantonic> I've heard that no matter when the pre-orders are placed, they will all be shipped together
Nov 21 00:34:08 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, too many idiots whining for USB charging. . . .
Nov 21 00:34:30 <ds3> GA: I just want a way to charge it in the car... I just found a high current car charger a few months ago
Nov 21 00:34:46 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, for the Nokia?
Nov 21 00:35:28 <ds3> so it'd be back to inverter + AC charger
Nov 21 00:35:28 <ds3> GA: yes... I found a 12V charger that works as well as the AC charger
Nov 21 00:35:28 <pupnik_> waiting for n900 until after christmas would really hurt, sorry Dantonic
Nov 21 00:35:28 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, the box includes an adapter that'll adapt both of the old style Nokia chargers to microUSB.
Nov 21 00:35:38 <Dantonic> ya thanks pupnik_ I appreciate that
Nov 21 00:35:48 <GeneralAntilles> I doubt very much Amazon's estimate is much good.
Nov 21 00:36:02 <pupnik_> usb charging even if trickle is very nice - n900 comes with adapter to let you charge n900 with standard nokia charger also
Nov 21 00:36:11 <Dantonic> I just really expected to have it by now... hopefully next week
Nov 21 00:37:13 <pupnik_> however it appears we had the choice of usb charging *OR* host mode, which is a bit of a pickle
Nov 21 00:37:29 <GeneralAntilles> Be nice if they'd put 2 USB ports on.
Nov 21 00:39:13 <GeneralAntilles> ds3, oh, also, the camera kicks ass.
Nov 21 00:39:22 <ds3> we lost host mode?!
Nov 21 00:39:31 <ds3> ggrrrrrrr
Nov 21 00:40:11 <ds3> it may be rarely used but being able to get to a CDROM or a thumbdrive in those rare occasions is nice
Nov 21 00:40:30 <GAN900> Well, we lost OTG
Nov 21 00:40:42 <GAN900> Host mode may still be an option.
Nov 21 00:40:51 <ds3> for us 800 users, we never had OTG
Nov 21 00:41:04 <ds3> esp. since the mode pin wasn't brought out
Nov 21 00:42:29 <pupnik_> aha ty for the clarification
Nov 21 00:43:05 <pupnik_> playing openarena / quake3 with accelerometers is not something to let a drunk person do with your n900
Nov 21 00:43:35 <pupnik_> i found it slightly dizzying sober
Nov 21 00:45:27 <GAN900> ds3, OTG worked here.
Nov 21 00:45:53 <GAN900> ds3, I bought one of the adaptors from jolouis.
Nov 21 00:46:21 <GAN900> pupnik_, sensitivity and mouselook really need work.
Nov 21 00:47:28 <pupnik_> it is surprisingly workable
Nov 21 00:47:36 <pupnik_> and fun
Nov 21 00:48:25 <wiretapped> does the n900 have a compass?
Nov 21 00:48:40 * wiretapped just read some conflicting answers on that
Nov 21 00:49:06 <GeneralAntilles> No
Nov 21 00:49:16 <GeneralAntilles> People on the internet are just idiots.
Nov 21 00:50:35 <wiretapped> There is a comment at http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/discussions/board/message?board.id=smartphones&message.id=163007 about a video where "a Nokia representative mentions a digital compass in N900"
Nov 21 00:50:43 <wiretapped> but the video has been removed by the user who posted it
Nov 21 00:50:56 <wiretapped> but you're sure?
Nov 21 00:54:11 <type_t> hola
Nov 21 00:55:04 <wiretapped> i mean, you probably didn't think your n800 had an fm radio ;)
Nov 21 00:55:23 <javispedro> there's no digital compass.
Nov 21 00:55:52 <Shapeshifter> javispedro: can software fix that? xD (joking)
Nov 21 00:56:01 <Shapeshifter> I'm infected by the forum level of questions
Nov 21 00:56:02 <javispedro> no, but brainwashing can
Nov 21 00:56:07 <Shapeshifter> ahhh right
Nov 21 00:56:46 <type_t> may be a sun dial might help..
Nov 21 00:57:27 <Shapeshifter> you can put the n900 in a bowl with water and it will adjust pointing north
Nov 21 00:57:27 <wiretapped> is there an analog compass? =p
Nov 21 00:57:32 <GeneralAntilles> wiretapped, it's not anywhere apparent.
Nov 21 00:58:11 <Shapeshifter> you can use the n900 though to call someone to ask them where north is.
Nov 21 00:58:19 <Shapeshifter> hope that is a useful workaround.
Nov 21 00:58:50 <type_t> but we can think of code to get it to strap a GPS position and find its direction of travel.
Nov 21 00:59:42 <pwnguin> as long as you only turn with a radius of 10 meters
Nov 21 01:00:24 <DrIDK> How Can I install qt4-devel and play with it ? on maemo sdk freemantle ?
Nov 21 01:11:11 <type_t> what type of compression packed is qt4 .deb ?
Nov 21 01:11:28 <GeneralAntilles> Compression?
Nov 21 01:13:25 <javispedro> type_t: gzip, but I guess that doesn't answer your question.
Nov 21 01:15:37 <type_t> ha ok i see you you know .. i unpack .deb packages with 7zipmanager on windows and i get tar after first unpack control.tar and data.tar so ..
Nov 21 01:15:48 <javispedro> why are you doing that?
Nov 21 01:16:54 <ali1234> type_t: the files that get installed in the fs are in data.tar
Nov 21 01:17:05 <ali1234> which is not compressed, it's a tar file
Nov 21 01:22:35 <RXrenesis8> 1. Look at your watch; is it before or after noon?
Nov 21 01:23:10 <RXrenesis8> 2. if you answered "before" the sun is over the eastern sky, if you answered "after, the sun is over the western sky.
Nov 21 01:23:17 <RXrenesis8> 3. ^ compass
Nov 21 01:23:42 <ali1234> what if its cloudy.............
Nov 21 01:23:54 <ali1234> or exactly noon?
Nov 21 01:24:38 <RXrenesis8> you should not be outside when it is cloudy, people get UV burns from that. and everyone knows that from 12:00 02:00 is siesta time
Nov 21 01:24:54 <RXrenesis8> PROBLEMS SOVED OKAY?!
Nov 21 01:25:00 <ds3> apparently the vikies had a special stone to solve teh cloudy case
Nov 21 01:25:17 <ali1234> what if its night time?
Nov 21 01:25:19 <GeneralAntilles> blah blah blah military training
Nov 21 01:25:56 <ds3> polaris
Nov 21 01:26:17 <ali1234> what if its night time and cloudy and you lost your watch and n900?
Nov 21 01:27:23 <ds3> up the stream w/o a paddle
Nov 21 01:28:03 <Proteous> ali1234 was eaten by a grue
Nov 21 01:36:23 <javispedro> knowing you, if you lost your n900, you're not outside at night time and cloudy.
Nov 21 01:38:32 <GeneralAntilles> SSH can usually confirm if it's in the building at least. ;)
Nov 21 01:38:46 <javispedro> ouch. every time the clocks on CPUs speed up, engadget finds a way to slow their site.
Nov 21 01:39:00 <GeneralAntilles> Indeed
Nov 21 01:39:17 <javispedro> man.
Nov 21 01:39:19 <lcuk> microsoft has the same inverse performance function
Nov 21 01:39:22 <javispedro> if it it brings my desktop to a halt.
Nov 21 01:39:34 <ds3> Firefox!
Nov 21 01:39:37 <javispedro> I can't even begin to imagine how it'll perform in _any_ embedded device.
Nov 21 01:39:47 <jaem> good morning
Nov 21 01:40:13 <ds3> you got it all wrong... an embedded device is a pallet sized device that us embedded into the ground
Nov 21 01:40:13 <ds3> ;)
Nov 21 01:40:35 <GeneralAntilles> javispedro, it works OKish on the N900.
Nov 21 01:40:48 <GeneralAntilles> Fine once it's loaded, anyway.
Nov 21 01:41:01 <jaem> did you folks see this? http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzcxNQ
Nov 21 01:41:08 <javispedro> same as my desktop, but there's a quite noticeable pause where everything hangs for 10-15 seconds
Nov 21 01:41:15 <jaem> also, http://www.bada.com/
Nov 21 01:41:15 <javispedro> while loading.
Nov 21 01:41:24 <jaem> looks interesting
Nov 21 01:41:43 <GeneralAntilles> jaem, it's Samsung.
Nov 21 01:41:51 <jaem> GeneralAntilles, yes, your point?
Nov 21 01:42:08 <GeneralAntilles> They've got no text padding on the left on MicroB.
Nov 21 01:42:13 <GeneralAntilles> jaem, they're a LiMo backer.
Nov 21 01:42:19 <jaem> GeneralAntilles, ah
Nov 21 01:42:26 <GeneralAntilles> LiMo is evil
Nov 21 01:42:44 <jaem> they're calling this an "open mobile platform"... I take it it's not as open as they'd like to make it sound?
Nov 21 01:43:16 <javispedro> ah, and Nokia is even going to sponsor yet another engadget show!
Nov 21 01:43:37 <GAN900> jaem, who the hell knows.
Nov 21 01:43:47 <GAN900> There's no real info available.
Nov 21 01:44:19 <GAN900> javispedro, it's like a beaten spouse.
Nov 21 01:44:33 <GAN900> They just keep going back for more.
Nov 21 01:45:09 <GAN900> Hell, they're just entrenching Engadget more since now if they changed their tune they'd be "sellouts".
Nov 21 01:45:28 <javispedro> basically.
Nov 21 01:45:55 * GAN900 is excited about Barcelona.
Nov 21 01:46:08 <javispedro> I don't know what to expect...
Nov 21 01:47:11 <ds3> open mobile platform? isn't that basically a peice of plywood on a snow slope?
Nov 21 01:47:34 <jaem> ds3, that's a sled
Nov 21 01:47:37 <jaem> easy to confuse
Nov 21 01:47:43 <jaem> and no, not SLED
Nov 21 01:47:53 <ds3> surely... it is open, mobile, and a platform :D
Nov 21 01:48:07 <ds3> did you not just make such claims?
Nov 21 01:48:14 <jaem> ds3, find me a sled that I can get a root shell on, and I might be interested
Nov 21 01:48:46 <microlith> also, engadget's new layout burns the eyes
Nov 21 01:48:51 <ds3> nothing stopping you from hollowing out a burl and putting it on there
Nov 21 01:49:02 <jaem> ds3, -grin-
Nov 21 01:49:39 <pupnik_> N900 multitasking is fantastic - 12 windows, one a paused sdl game, no system load
Nov 21 01:49:47 <jaem> pupnik_, I know :D
Nov 21 01:49:54 <jaem> it's great
Nov 21 01:50:06 * microlith shakes a tiny fist at Nokia
Nov 21 01:50:42 <VDVsx> GAN900, Limo is a deal breaker, everybody knows that :P
Nov 21 01:50:46 <pupnik_> this zeemote library by mr harbaum is great - we need a hack to control x pointer with zeemote
Nov 21 01:51:12 <jaem> is the zeemote a specific product?
Nov 21 01:51:14 <pupnik_> control N900 for presentations and games
Nov 21 01:51:23 <jaem> or just the name of the driver?
Nov 21 01:51:27 <pupnik_> yes, cheap bt controller
Nov 21 01:51:32 <jaem> ah, neat
Nov 21 01:51:33 <jaem> how cheap?
Nov 21 01:51:40 <pupnik_> great and very unobtrusive
Nov 21 01:51:52 <pupnik_> 12-18 eu here
Nov 21 01:52:47 <pupnik_> but where is no joystick kernel module so maybe we could cheat and pretend it is a wacom pad
Nov 21 01:52:52 <pupnik_> ?
Nov 21 01:53:05 <javispedro> this is something we need to agree on someday
Nov 21 01:53:19 <pupnik_> brainstorm on t.m.o?
Nov 21 01:53:19 <javispedro> some common joystick interface -- of course the usual linux one would be preferable, but dunno.
Nov 21 01:53:47 <pupnik_> javis can you send me drnoksnes with zeemote support ?
Nov 21 01:53:57 <pupnik_> @ javispedro
Nov 21 01:54:24 <pupnik_> have no way to test real ergonomics
Nov 21 01:54:37 <javispedro> pupnik_: can you build drnoksnes itself?
Nov 21 01:55:04 <pupnik_> sure
Nov 21 01:55:09 <javispedro> pupnik_: then get https://garage.maemo.org/tracker/download.php/1014/3791/4618/633/drnoksnes_zeemote.patch
Nov 21 01:55:16 <pupnik_> just not setup
Nov 21 01:55:40 <javispedro> if you want me to build you'll need to ping me tomorrow -- too asleep now.
Nov 21 01:55:46 <pupnik_> maybe it takes me a week before compiles work
Nov 21 01:55:49 <pupnik_> k
Nov 21 01:55:56 <pupnik_> i get going
Nov 21 01:56:02 <pupnik_> ty
Nov 21 01:56:45 <pupnik_> i am still kind of in awe at n900
Nov 21 01:57:06 <javispedro> your reports about it being usable for gaming are comforting, truly.
Nov 21 01:57:25 <pupnik_> heh
Nov 21 01:57:35 * CoreFusion- realized that he has to get a wiimote before N900 arrives...
Nov 21 01:57:52 <GAN900> VDVsx, drink!
Nov 21 01:58:03 <VDVsx> glup!
Nov 21 01:58:30 * javispedro remembers he needs to poke tmo about the 3d drivers and make attila drink
Nov 21 01:58:30 <pupnik_> i would feel silly bringing a wiimote with the N900 - zeemote fits one hand, in pocket
Nov 21 01:58:36 <javispedro> agreed pupnik_
Nov 21 01:58:37 <GAN900> javispedro, hopefully not lots of riotus Maemo people if the N900 doesn't ship in time. ;)
Nov 21 01:58:47 <CoreFusion-> zeemote?
Nov 21 01:59:10 <javispedro> GAN900: riots are inevitable at this point ;)
Nov 21 01:59:17 <pupnik_> yeah just got zeemote paired with n900 - it looks great
Nov 21 01:59:29 <GAN900> pupnik_, friend of mine plays emus on the bus with Wiimote in one hand and N800 in the other.
Nov 21 01:59:35 <pupnik_> will get dosbox zeemote jozstick FOR SURE
Nov 21 01:59:49 <javispedro> that's why we need to agree on something.
Nov 21 01:59:56 <javispedro> libzeemote requires libhildon
Nov 21 02:00:01 <javispedro> adding on drnoksnes ... ok
Nov 21 02:00:09 <javispedro> adding on every other SDL app ... :(
Nov 21 02:00:29 <pupnik_> yep
Nov 21 02:00:36 <pupnik_> quim sees it
Nov 21 02:00:46 <pupnik_> so brainstorm i think
Nov 21 02:00:51 <CoreFusion-> Nah, I'd rather get Wiimote
Nov 21 02:01:07 <javispedro> pupnik_: ta!
Nov 21 02:01:20 <javispedro> I might even fill a candidate solution for that bstorm item...
Nov 21 02:01:47 <jaem> lol @ http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/11/stabbing_people.html
Nov 21 02:02:03 <pupnik_> k will try to get drnok and dosbox built first
Nov 21 02:02:21 <javispedro> np
Nov 21 02:05:01 <CoreFusion-> jaem: wtf?
Nov 21 02:06:25 <ali1234> heh, i forgot how annoying autocomplete and autocaps are
Nov 21 02:35:06 <BBNS> mmmm shipping madness!
Nov 21 02:45:55 <pupnik_> if you want to see a sdl game done right, check out "Ur-Quan Masters" UQM
Nov 21 02:46:32 <pupnik_> upper left click paises game and returns to app overview
Nov 21 02:46:37 <pupnik_> pauses
Nov 21 02:46:48 <jaem> does anyone have any experience with using minigpsd's advanced features on the N810?
Nov 21 02:47:13 <jaem> specifically, I'm wondering how difficult it is to serve up GPS info to an external host over Wifi/BT
Nov 21 02:50:34 <lcuk> pupnik_, dashboard
Nov 21 02:50:51 <pupnik_> ah ty
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Nov 21 02:59:57 2009