**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 29 04:33:46 2010 Jan 29 04:41:46 <|R> anyone knows if using SIP through Fring goes through their servers? Jan 29 04:41:59 <|R> or is it just a normal VoIP client in that case...? Jan 29 04:44:17 hmmm Jan 29 04:44:22 can you upload pics to picassa Jan 29 04:53:33 yes Jan 29 06:02:17 in vgba how do I switch to fullscreen? ctrl+enter seems to have no effect Jan 29 06:10:56 aspidites: i dont think you can Jan 29 06:11:27 pupnik: he can't? Jan 29 06:11:40 well, actually, he cannot, right... Jan 29 06:17:20 pasuspender -- vgba -ds 3 -sync 20 -sound 48000 -shm -skip 66 Sword_of_Mana.gba Jan 29 06:17:26 blah Jan 29 06:23:51 i dont get why ali1234 sees xrun with pulse. Jan 29 06:24:48 i see xrun because the emulator does not run at 100% speed Jan 29 06:24:58 therefore it does not fill the buffer faster than it empties Jan 29 06:27:57 correct Jan 29 06:30:33 you know i was getting sound without dropouts with psx4all Jan 29 06:30:56 unless i hallucimember that Jan 29 06:30:58 wow droped a full bar on the batrery meater in less then 4 or 5 hours just idaling Jan 29 06:31:51 oh wifi is still on guss thats might explane it Jan 29 06:33:43 dropped battery meter idling Jan 29 06:36:17 http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/linuxaudio.png :) Jan 29 06:38:07 probably the closest to win i ever got was fixing fceu stutter Jan 29 06:39:08 that was bad design clossed ovr with an expensive lowpass filter Jan 29 06:39:27 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2188345/windows_7_x64_free.jpg Jan 29 06:39:33 sometimes it pays to be a student hehe :) Jan 29 06:41:12 if i go to schools selling free crack they try to lock me up Jan 29 06:42:57 selling or giving away? Jan 29 06:43:12 acidjazz: yeah, took photo with macro was devastated :) Jan 29 06:43:34 RST38h: I guess it's the little finger method Jan 29 06:43:44 give something for free, and hook you up Jan 29 06:44:12 but when it comes to IT students and M$ products I kinda think bad idea Jan 29 06:44:33 well they would copy it anyway Jan 29 06:44:49 the problem is teaching OS concepts with it Jan 29 06:45:20 You cannot teach OS concepts with Windows Jan 29 06:45:33 You can run MS Office with it though and that is what everyone uses it for Jan 29 06:46:11 I think our school has participated in that just for our CCNP students Jan 29 06:46:25 so they can legally run their own copy of Windows whatever virtually when testing stuff Jan 29 06:46:57 at school that is Jan 29 06:46:58 work. Jan 29 06:47:29 * RST38h does not understand what the problem is though. If MS wants to give away Windows, it has full rights to do so. Jan 29 06:47:41 No problem ^^ Jan 29 06:47:49 It will not make Windows any more suitable for tasks outside wordprocessing though. Jan 29 06:48:01 Just saying it won't increase their cashflow, which I imagine is the concept of "give for free so people get used to stuff" Jan 29 06:48:40 ..and then want to use it after schools over or something. Problem is, every IT guy already knows their products and uses them or not, and is not likely to change behaviour based on this :) Jan 29 06:49:02 I could have gone hardcore and picked XNA license for some xbox programming hehe :) Jan 29 06:51:24 I would not have windows if it weren't for msdn-aa Jan 29 06:51:38 I was without windows for years Jan 29 06:53:12 ptman: but would you buy one, even now? :) Jan 29 06:53:49 one could say I bought it Jan 29 06:54:27 I paid ~20EUR for acm membership to get win7 Jan 29 06:54:40 win7 is quite good Jan 29 07:00:24 I like it aswell Jan 29 07:00:53 anyone know a program which would let me to use an ssh server with user and pass to tunnel a connection to another ssh server, for SFTP usage Jan 29 07:01:25 umm, ssh? Jan 29 07:02:01 ssh Jan 29 07:02:08 red: look up "ssh tunneling" :) Jan 29 07:02:20 ssh -L 8022:secondserver:22 user@firstserver Jan 29 07:02:40 sftp -p 8022 localhost Jan 29 07:07:16 doc|home: got winscp portable to function the way I wanted =) Jan 29 07:07:29 use the normal version home but never realized the advanced check in the corner for more options heh Jan 29 07:07:48 we need to connect to our school ssh and then open an ssh outside, cant do directly Jan 29 07:22:32 morning Jan 29 07:22:59 morning slonopotamus! Jan 29 07:23:54 mornin everyone Jan 29 07:23:59 it's quiet. too quiet. :) Jan 29 07:24:09 Dangerous when it's quiet... Jan 29 07:24:19 slonopotamus: everyone is afraid to say the truth Jan 29 07:24:31 It's out there. Jan 29 07:24:38 it's in here! Jan 29 07:24:51 so. do we have n8x0 3d drivers yet? :) Jan 29 07:25:22 slonopotamus: the truth is: you want to mail me your N900 Jan 29 07:25:32 ok so how the frak do I get a label background in an eventbox to be transparent in a cairo context? Jan 29 07:27:09 is it really not possible to delete one event of a reoccuring event on the calender?? Jan 29 07:28:10 Xisdibik, afaik, no. Jan 29 07:28:24 no its not possible or no im wrong it is possible? :p Jan 29 07:31:37 Xisdibik, impossible Jan 29 07:36:18 has anyone spotted some sales figures for the N900 ? Jan 29 07:37:37 yes Jan 29 07:39:46 pupnik_, where? Jan 29 07:40:00 pupnik_, and what did they say? Jan 29 07:40:23 i didn't sai that I did Jan 29 08:13:55 enabled x pointer helps target small links in browser Jan 29 08:28:28 ugh Jan 29 08:28:30 have to change up my raid Jan 29 08:28:34 finally got the damn thing empty :) Jan 29 08:47:11 is anyone here using MfE instead of imap? Jan 29 09:40:36 dneary: I need your strength Jan 29 09:40:50 crashanddie, It's yours Jan 29 09:41:05 * dneary bestows superhuman strength on crashanddie Jan 29 09:41:06 oh god I hate bugs.maemo.org Jan 29 09:41:12 dneary: donne moi la force de ne pas tuer la plupart des utilisateurs de tmo Jan 29 09:41:38 crashanddie, Je crois qu'il y a des francophones sur tmo aussi Jan 29 09:41:55 Myrtti: server or content? ;) Jan 29 09:42:04 JimiDini: searching for content Jan 29 09:42:08 c'est pas ca le probleme, mais serieusement les conneries qu'ils sortent a la minute est absolument incroyable Jan 29 09:42:46 Myrtti: ah… good-ol' bugzilla ui ;) Jan 29 09:49:01 oh wow a real soliloquy Jan 29 10:03:51 Hrm, using gstreamer and rendering to a GtkDrawingArea looks crap when you use the task switcher :( Jan 29 10:12:19 hello maemo Jan 29 10:17:47 crashanddie, Quels conneries en particulier? Jan 29 10:17:56 hi wazd Jan 29 10:18:40 dneary: bah juste le fait qu'ils critiquent les modos d'avoir balance quelques threads dans off-topic Jan 29 10:20:43 crashanddie, Lesquels? Jan 29 10:21:04 (faut que tu sache que je vais à Talk qd qqn m'indique un thread intéressant seulement) Jan 29 10:21:28 dneary: pas vraiment interessant mais bon: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=42581 Jan 29 10:21:37 tu mattes le match entre federer et tsonga? Jan 29 10:22:17 nan au boulot Jan 29 10:22:22 c koi le score? Jan 29 10:22:43 first set for federer, 6-2 Jan 29 10:22:55 second set, federer in lead, 2-1 (15-30) Jan 29 10:23:30 Do you need a scores app for maemo? Jan 29 10:24:02 The score could move from left side to right side constantly for authenticity Jan 29 10:24:12 tiens des francais Jan 29 10:24:13 "It's just like you were there" Jan 29 10:24:21 depends, if it only works for tennis, not much interest Jan 29 10:24:30 however if you get something that would be able to work for most sports... Jan 29 10:24:35 then you might have a magical app Jan 29 10:25:01 Well, I've ever only parsed the scores for finnish SM-Liiga and those of NHL Jan 29 10:25:03 !liiga Jan 29 10:25:12 Hmm, I'm broken :( Jan 29 10:25:45 jon1012: ni dneary ni moi sommes francais, il habite labas et moi j'ai vecu 10 ans en france -- maintenant j'habite a brisbane Jan 29 10:26:26 oki :) Jan 29 10:26:35 jon1012, I'm a Paddy Jan 29 10:26:49 paddy ? Jan 29 10:26:54 crashanddie, Looking like it's heading to a 3 set defeat, or is it close? Jan 29 10:27:06 jon1012, Irishman Jan 29 10:27:34 not really, federer is just jogging around the court and not having too much trouble Jan 29 10:28:13 but hey, tsonga surprised me more than once Jan 29 10:28:34 even though he played a 5 setter last night until very late, and federer went to bed around 9PM Jan 29 10:30:50 dneary: oh ok Jan 29 10:31:31 jon1012: which means he has a funny accent whether he speaks english or french! Jan 29 10:31:36 :D Jan 29 10:35:52 jon1012, Unlike our Belgian friend Anddie Jan 29 10:36:28 oy, except for the irish accent, I've mastered nearly every accent there is :P Jan 29 10:36:55 belgians have strange accents too :P Jan 29 10:37:09 jon1012: i'm not your average belgian ;) Jan 29 10:38:08 hehe Jan 29 10:41:39 dneary: 2 first sets for federer, 6-2, 6-3 Jan 29 10:41:45 ?gst-la Jan 29 10:41:48 oops Jan 29 10:44:08 crashanddie, Looks like Tsonga's soon going to be Tsongone Jan 29 10:45:06 you guys are behind Jan 29 10:45:13 he lost a while ago Jan 29 10:45:27 * RST38h moos Jan 29 10:45:47 zaheerm, final score? Jan 29 10:45:55 3 sets to love Jan 29 10:46:00 federer at home asleep already Jan 29 10:46:10 6-3 final set i believe Jan 29 10:46:23 6-2 even Jan 29 10:46:40 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/8486561.stm Jan 29 10:46:49 i was watching it since 8:30 Jan 29 10:46:59 * GeneralAntilles yawns. Jan 29 10:49:01 morning Jan 29 10:49:10 = Jan 29 10:49:13 helo hrw Jan 29 10:49:31 * alterego wonders if Nokia has done deals to stick N900 ads on any page with 'apple' or 'ipad' or 'iphone' etc. Jan 29 10:50:08 is it? Jan 29 10:53:16 hi hrw Jan 29 10:53:20 Going to FOSDEM? Jan 29 10:58:53 yes Jan 29 10:59:08 dneary: you too? Jan 29 11:00:10 Well, work might be buying me an N900... Jan 29 11:00:41 I demo'd an application I wrote in my lunch break yesterday, and they seem, well, very impressed. Jan 29 11:00:59 They want me to finish it. But I had to give the N900 back to my brother. ^.^ Jan 29 11:01:07 * alterego crosseds fingers. Jan 29 11:01:34 yippee, my first thing compiled for and run on the N900. just a simple single C file cli program (gcc -l crypto) but I used http://people.debian.org/~aurel32/qemu/armel/ rather then messing with that massive non-free sdk with a eula ;-) Jan 29 11:02:21 alterego: what your app does? Jan 29 11:02:23 hrw, Yup Jan 29 11:02:35 hrw, I'm involved in the embedded devroom Jan 29 11:02:40 dneary: cool, have to meet then Jan 29 11:02:49 dneary: where embedded room is this year? Jan 29 11:03:05 hrw: it'll be sold, and to gov't bodies. So it will never be public. Jan 29 11:03:09 hrw, Erm... one of the classrooms? Jan 29 11:03:34 I tried to play a video last night and it worked at first but then decided to lock my device up, screen went black and flashed slightly lit grey fullscreen and back to black about every second Jan 29 11:03:34 The schedule's only just finalised. No OpenEmbedded presentatioons (no-one submitted one) Jan 29 11:03:44 There are 2 or 3 Maemo presentations Jan 29 11:03:55 nothing I did got any response, not Ctrl-BS not holding power for 30ish seconds, I had to use the battery Jan 29 11:03:57 I work for a company who develop CCTV systems, it's basically a camera control client for the N900/maemo/mobile phones. Jan 29 11:04:31 dneary: looks like same as last year Jan 29 11:04:38 dneary: I mean room Jan 29 11:05:01 It displays video sent over packet data and gives you full movement telemetry control. Jan 29 11:05:12 hrw, Is it a good one? Jan 29 11:06:11 <_berto_> http://bitsandpieces.us/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/imagesevolution2_small.jpg Jan 29 11:06:33 if you come to FOSDEM join the beerevent! Jan 29 11:06:53 dneary: harder to reach but quite big Jan 29 11:07:35 dneary: 2 match points for federer Jan 29 11:07:43 dneary: will you have some free time at FOSDEM to talk about (developer) documentation? Jan 29 11:07:50 tsonga just did a beautiful play Jan 29 11:07:55 lameere is a good room Jan 29 11:07:59 500 seats Jan 29 11:08:02 amigadave, Yes Jan 29 11:08:15 amigadave, Good to see you here - can we have a chat after lunch? Jan 29 11:08:25 federer wins, 3 sets to 0, 6-2, 6-3, 6-2 Jan 29 11:08:32 dneary: sure, i'll be around Jan 29 11:08:35 silly question, any good way to do so that big file transfers and unarchive tar files won't make the n900 unresponsive? (the cpu load is 100% all the time and you can't do anything until it's finished with the file) Jan 29 11:08:42 crashanddie, Get with the news - zeenix told us that 15 mins ago :) Jan 29 11:08:50 amigadave, Great! Jan 29 11:08:50 eh? Jan 29 11:08:56 I'm looking at it live right now Jan 29 11:09:18 s/zeenix/zaheerm :P Jan 29 11:09:37 zaheerm weren't you a gentoo dev at a certain time? Jan 29 11:09:38 crashanddie, it finished a long time ago Jan 29 11:09:44 sejo, yes Jan 29 11:09:53 zaheerm: so what am I looking at? Jan 29 11:10:06 crashanddie, a delayed transmission Jan 29 11:10:13 * crashanddie is confused Jan 29 11:10:18 i watched it live Jan 29 11:10:22 has anyone else had the flashing screen lockup ? Jan 29 11:10:42 Damion2: sorry no Jan 29 11:11:04 it finished about an hour ago Jan 29 11:11:32 sejo, i am still in #gentoo-desktop and #gentoo-media Jan 29 11:11:42 zaheerm: cool Jan 29 11:11:52 Sargun: re: "Since the N900 has both a FM receiver, and transmitter, can we use the receiver to find open channels?" Jan 29 11:11:55 Sargun: that's genious Jan 29 11:12:13 sadly the receiver insists on a pair of headphones for an aerial Jan 29 11:16:37 Autoscanning is going to be slow and hit-n-miss anyway. Jan 29 11:17:22 well it's a non starter due to needing headphones in my case, but I like not having to search myself Jan 29 11:17:46 still the 108 hack might help, not been in the car for ages though, I have to pay to drive as I live within the congestion zone Jan 29 11:19:06 * zerojay resumes posting to Maemo Eats! Jan 29 11:20:29 I was thinking you should select a frequency, and it makes sure it's not got anything on it before it selects it. Jan 29 11:20:33 No need to scan. Jan 29 11:22:50 zerojay, I've missed a lot of good ones lately. Jan 29 11:23:03 Same here, but I'm going to make up for it. Jan 29 11:23:12 Now that my replacement is here. Jan 29 11:23:30 has anyone used the receiving SMS messages in RDS app ? Jan 29 11:27:01 people say not to accept updates when you enable the more test/dev repositories. But I can't remember if the apps needing updating are only available from those repositories, perhaps I should be letting them update? Jan 29 11:27:13 I'll check details incase it's also pulling in loads of newer libs which will break stuff Jan 29 11:27:17 GeneralAntilles: you ought to be sleeping mate Jan 29 11:27:25 crashanddie, just got up. Jan 29 11:27:30 at 6? Jan 29 11:27:33 what time is it? Jan 29 11:27:35 Yeah Jan 29 11:27:38 6:30 AM Jan 29 11:27:38 djeezus Jan 29 11:27:41 it's saturday mate Jan 29 11:27:46 Friday. . . . Jan 29 11:27:48 oh Jan 29 11:27:49 Futureman Jan 29 11:27:50 right Jan 29 11:28:04 Damion2: I'd try and be safe and use the commandline for updating if you're using extras-devel, testing isn't so bad. Jan 29 11:28:06 1:30 PM friday Jan 29 11:28:08 zerojay: hello mate Jan 29 11:28:43 ifreq: 9:30PM friday... it'll be saturday very soon for me ;) Jan 29 11:29:38 Damion2, disable them before you do your updates. Jan 29 11:30:04 if I disable them then the update request goes away Jan 29 11:30:28 well for some. I need a way to remember/know which were from extras-devel in the 1st place Jan 29 11:30:57 GeneralAntilles: those "omfg off-topic hate abuse" users are getting the better part of me Jan 29 11:30:59 crashanddie: Yo. Jan 29 11:31:08 Anyone have issues with Conversations and MSN?> It seems to be dropping a lot of incoming messages :( Jan 29 11:31:15 zerojay: sup dog? Jan 29 11:31:18 zerojay: long time no see Jan 29 11:31:28 crashanddie: Long time, no working N900. :) Jan 29 11:32:05 so, since when do you need an n900 to get online? Jan 29 11:32:40 crashanddie, a small taste of what it feels like to be on the council. ;) Jan 29 11:32:44 lol... I don't... been busy with other projects in the meantime such as my PS3 emulator setup which got released. Jan 29 11:32:45 Heh Jan 29 11:32:50 crashanddie, geneven's been dogging my every word on Talk for the past 2 years. Jan 29 11:33:00 geneven? Jan 29 11:33:12 GeneralAntilles: No exageration there. Jan 29 11:33:31 lol... Jan 29 11:33:51 Community (17 viewing) ... Last post: "Please keep off" by CrashandDie Jan 29 11:34:02 I'm totally serious. This dude has a hard-on for Gen. Jan 29 11:34:04 crashanddie, the little troll that associates anybody providing leadership on maemo.org with communist dictatorships. Jan 29 11:34:37 you have those everywhere Jan 29 11:34:47 He's particularly tireless, though. Jan 29 11:34:58 hey, you guys want all debian etch apps that compile uploaded to the builder? Jan 29 11:35:14 I still believe that one suggestion that was made when OrangeBox was being particularly difficult was excellent Jan 29 11:35:29 modify the forum so that a "banned" user can still browse, access and use the forum as normal Jan 29 11:35:40 he sees each and every post as anyone else Jan 29 11:35:47 however, anyone else sees all but his posts Jan 29 11:35:54 Hehe Jan 29 11:35:58 crashanddie, that's just cruel. Jan 29 11:36:06 blackholing him? Awesome. Jan 29 11:36:07 effective though Jan 29 11:36:19 It would take a while for him to realize too. Jan 29 11:36:22 I'm guessing mods should be allowed to see his posts though Jan 29 11:36:36 if he turns good due to the lack of responses, he should be unbanned Jan 29 11:37:16 crashanddie, all the more incentive not to be a mod. ;) Jan 29 11:37:30 I'm tempted to post a thread in General announcing that we've done it Jan 29 11:38:04 and that all the following users have been added to the beta test: nobody will see their posts for the next month Jan 29 11:38:12 lol Jan 29 11:38:17 {insert big list of vocal users} Jan 29 11:38:36 * GeneralAntilles notes that qgil's post about Maemo 6 said exactly nothing of value. Jan 29 11:38:51 GeneralAntilles: where? Jan 29 11:39:06 General: It is his job to say things without saying anything of value. Jan 29 11:39:17 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=500474&postcount=286 Jan 29 11:40:43 General: Well, to me this sounds like "let us wait until Maemo6 SDK alpha and complain then" Jan 29 11:41:08 Which is fine with me personally. Jan 29 11:41:17 GeneralAntilles: thx Jan 29 11:41:35 RST38h, I just can't believe that they're going to take their first push into the mainstream market (which has been huge) then PUNISH all of those users for it. Jan 29 11:41:41 RST38h, it's just so, idiotic. . . . Jan 29 11:41:47 General: happened before. Jan 29 11:42:06 not mainstream Jan 29 11:42:22 General: And even before the infamous Diablo/Fremantle shift: check Nokia's history of releasing S60e1, S60e2, S60e3, S60e3fp1, etc Jan 29 11:42:23 there's a huge difference between punishing 28k n800 users Jan 29 11:42:24 I reckon, m6 will be available for N900 Jan 29 11:42:32 crashanddie, the N900 is a much more sizable release than any previous Maemo device. Jan 29 11:42:40 and punishing 243k n900 users Jan 29 11:42:41 Yet they're screwing all of those users in less than a year. Jan 29 11:42:42 Unfortunately, it'll probably feel like a downgrade to a lot of people; Jan 29 11:42:45 crash: Nokia has no problem punishing mainstream users, check history of S60 releases Jan 29 11:42:48 what's the package providing multiuser chat again? Jan 29 11:42:51 crashanddie, your numbers suck. Jan 29 11:42:59 crashanddie, 770 sold 50k units Jan 29 11:43:03 The policy is "You want newer software => buy a new handset and make us some money" Jan 29 11:43:08 N800 sold 300k units by /August 2007/ Jan 29 11:43:20 Which was right as the price drop was hitting. Jan 29 11:43:27 GeneralAntilles: don't care about the real numbers, just trying to draw a picture Jan 29 11:43:37 crashanddie, your picture sucks. Jan 29 11:43:45 never been a good drawer Jan 29 11:43:46 GeneralAntilles: That's pretty damn impressive any way you slice it. Jan 29 11:43:52 zerojay, indeed. Jan 29 11:44:02 RST38h: they still have 2-3 versions of s60 in new cellphones Jan 29 11:44:02 GeneralAntilles: it stings more for normal users (like my brother) who took out a 18 month (worse for 24 month) contract) Jan 29 11:44:07 zerojay, when you factor in the N800 and N810 price drops that's a lot of units. Jan 29 11:44:09 GeneralAntilles: I just halved the numbers... Jan 29 11:44:11 RST38h: v3fp1, v3fp2, v5 Jan 29 11:44:15 hrw, S60 is a joke. Jan 29 11:44:28 hrw, Nokia isn't justified in translating S60's business practices to Maemo. Jan 29 11:44:30 hrw: Exactly Jan 29 11:44:38 hrw: And these are not quite compatible Jan 29 11:44:39 GeneralAntilles: so far it has more usefull apps then maemo5 has Jan 29 11:44:40 They should be appropriately crucified for attempting to do so. Jan 29 11:44:49 hrw, it's also been around for a million goddamn years. Jan 29 11:44:55 General: They are being themselves, not translating anything Jan 29 11:45:00 hrw, and been marketed, and produce in volume, etc. Jan 29 11:45:08 GeneralAntilles: sure Jan 29 11:45:32 lol... "This news update is brought to you by the Australian Open Ballkids." Newsreader: "A pedophile has been arrested earlier last week at the Australian Open games, police has announced" Jan 29 11:45:49 Anyway, I doubt it is Quim's decision to keep or break Maemo6 compatibility with N900, so taking shots at the messenger is not gonna help Jan 29 11:45:51 I WONDER HOW THAT HAPPENED Jan 29 11:46:20 necrozoopedophile? Jan 29 11:46:30 RST38h: there has to be someone who can be shot by community Jan 29 11:46:38 hrw: thanks for volunteering Jan 29 11:46:46 hrw, they're hiding in the cathedral. Jan 29 11:46:54 hrw: If you shoot 'em all, who is gonna deliver the next Maemo? Jan 29 11:46:59 hrw, although I'm in favor of taking shots at Anssi on principle. Jan 29 11:47:14 it's worse for symbian device purchasers Jan 29 11:47:16 * RST38h agrees with General here Jan 29 11:47:34 what does 2H2010 mean ? Jan 29 11:47:35 oh 2nd half Jan 29 11:47:40 that's bollocks Jan 29 11:47:41 they never got upgrades between s60v3 and v3fp1 or v3fp1 -> v3fp2 Jan 29 11:47:43 Damion2, Christmas. Jan 29 11:47:52 RST38h: Good work on the xchat update, btw. Jan 29 11:47:54 well aer nokia famous for not slipping? Jan 29 11:47:57 xmas announcement, shlves spring 2011? Jan 29 11:48:08 zaheerm: yeah that sounds more likely Jan 29 11:48:28 GeneralAntilles: agreed Jan 29 11:48:36 RST38h, I really want to know who's behind it. Jan 29 11:48:45 RST38h, my suspicion is that it's higher up than Ari. Jan 29 11:48:46 which means we have about another year of n900 and I dont think nokia will no no work at all, I also don't see porting non multi touch apps between two builds is hard, if anything it's quite a trivial build rule, so supporting n900 for the next few years is likely Jan 29 11:48:50 RST38h, but if it IS Ari. . . . Jan 29 11:49:28 Damion2, don't be naive. ;) Jan 29 11:49:45 seriously though we'll almost certainly be able to compile M6 at least for a chroot within M5 and loads of apps should work Jan 29 11:49:47 RST38h: taking shots at the messenger? HE didn't really deliver any kind of messaage though :P Jan 29 11:50:32 Damion2: maemo5 will get 1-2 updates and will get end of support in 2010 due to maemo6 device release Jan 29 11:50:42 thats my opinion Jan 29 11:50:58 best hope is that M6 supports ofono, which means Mer will finally be able to make phone calls Jan 29 11:51:07 hrw: well, that's the pessimistic view. The poiint is,no one knows anything I doubt even they know yet. Hence the talk about the SDK's. Jan 29 11:51:13 Damion2, I expect Mer could provide effective support. Jan 29 11:51:28 GeneralAntilles: it's not Ari Jan 29 11:51:29 Damion2, however, that doesn't help normal people. Jan 29 11:51:33 770 was EOL after n800 release, n800 had support durin n810 life due to being same hw basically. and n8x0 got killed before n900 release even Jan 29 11:51:39 Because nothing is concrete as far as functionality is concerned to them. They can't say if there's not going to be something fundamentally different. Jan 29 11:51:47 normal people on contracts get upgraded every 12 months anyway Jan 29 11:51:51 the thing about normal people is that they are totally OK with buying a new phone every year Jan 29 11:51:59 They can't say anything about "well, we want to be able to release m6 for N900" because they just don't know yet. Jan 29 11:52:03 Damion2: my phone contract is 2 years not year Jan 29 11:52:05 most of the people I know don't pay for phones beyond the monthly fee and get a new phone roughly that frequently Jan 29 11:52:11 hrw: where do you live? Jan 29 11:52:21 GeneralAntilles: but it's not coming from above him either Jan 29 11:52:23 Damion2: UK contracts seem to all be 18-24 months now .. Jan 29 11:52:31 alterego: when did they start doing that? Jan 29 11:52:33 Damion2: Poland Jan 29 11:52:47 hrw, funny thing is, N900 is going to be in the same situation with whatever's next. Jan 29 11:52:51 Same damn hardware Jan 29 11:52:52 Damion2: money? smartphones are a lot more expensive now realy. Jan 29 11:52:59 hrw: they have phones in poland? We're all shown shows on telly where it's all black and white and you queue for potatoes Jan 29 11:53:07 Except, oh wait, we're putting multitouch into SO MUCH of our UI that we can't support the N900. Jan 29 11:53:12 Please, get the fuck out of here. Jan 29 11:53:17 alterego: well the 9210 was 900quid, the e90 was 750quid and the n97 and n900 were 500quid Jan 29 11:53:20 spot a pattern ? Jan 29 11:53:40 Damion2: please don't assume your ignorance has spread to the rest of the crowd Jan 29 11:53:43 hrw: I'm kidding. I work with many polish people here :) Jan 29 11:53:43 Erm .. economy? Jan 29 11:54:28 alterego, the thing that keeps me from being more resigned about this is capacitive. Jan 29 11:54:28 Damion2: but we drive proper side of road and know how to use 1 tap to get warm water ;D Jan 29 11:54:30 * RST38h does not see too much usage for multitouch in ui Jan 29 11:54:43 Even if I say "OK, N900 is going to be dropped like a ton of bricks, whatever, I'll just use the next thing." Jan 29 11:54:44 RST38h: especially on small screen Jan 29 11:54:50 It's capacitive, and I hate capacitive. Jan 29 11:54:51 hrw: some of us have single taps! but yeah my american friends wonder wtf we're doing with that Jan 29 11:54:53 GeneralAntilles: sure, but what can they do with it? Jan 29 11:55:07 hrw: well I cant even think of scenarios Jan 29 11:55:08 GeneralAntilles: sure, me too, a good reason to not get the next iteration ^.^ Jan 29 11:55:13 hrw: Indeed. Even the much lauded pinch gesture is clumsy and fairly gimmicky on a 3.5" screen, IMHO Jan 29 11:55:20 Damion2: thats because you visited normal countries to see how useful it is ;D Jan 29 11:55:23 I'm not buying some shitty no keyboard non resistive iphone attempt Jan 29 11:55:31 And from my exposure to the N900 over the past couple of weeks, well, I think it's a device that could last me a couple of years easily :) Jan 29 11:55:46 alterego, I expect their marketing people have decided that every operation will require two fingers on the screen. Jan 29 11:55:54 alterego, until you drop it on the floor Jan 29 11:56:05 visz: price would have bottomed by that point ;) Jan 29 11:56:07 Oh wait Jan 29 11:56:08 Jaffa, worse than that. It's IS gimmicky. Jan 29 11:56:10 in Ireland N900 contract is 18 months (and not available at all on the cheaper contracts only "special" data contracts) ... and I think the trend really started with the iPhone Jan 29 11:56:10 GeneralAntilles: btw - do you know what eats ram on n900 that browser 'is unable to do anything due to low memory'? Jan 29 11:56:13 General: brilliant! Jan 29 11:56:25 hrw, dunno, haven't experienced it. Jan 29 11:56:31 ONE finger for SELECTION, TWO fingers for SCROLLING!!! Jan 29 11:56:44 RST38h, add one finger to each. Jan 29 11:56:48 three fingers to enter text! Jan 29 11:56:55 Actually Jan 29 11:56:58 SpeedEvil: no, 21! Jan 29 11:56:58 * RST38h has seen the light now. Expecting Nokia ninjas with axes any time now Jan 29 11:57:03 I have used 5 Jan 29 11:57:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter Jan 29 11:57:28 I always thought multi-touch was just a bit of an enhancement for somethings, it's not a whole new unique way of interacting with the OS. Though, they might be thinking of doing something similar to MS surface type system interfacing. Jan 29 11:57:29 the Agenda Jan 29 11:57:40 hrw: Can capacitive touchscreen really recognize the appendice you are touching it with? Jan 29 11:57:58 alterego, according to Nokia, you're wrong. Jan 29 11:58:14 GeneralAntilles: according to Quim, they don't know ^.^ Jan 29 11:58:22 RST38h: no idea Jan 29 11:58:26 lol Jan 29 11:58:35 RST38h: can it be calculated from size/shape? Jan 29 11:58:40 they don't want you to know != they don't know Jan 29 11:58:42 RST38h: no, but with a front facing camera aswell ... :D Jan 29 11:59:11 RST38h, by the way, did mgedmin bug you about FBReader's inability to sleep properly? Jan 29 11:59:19 We need to figure out who is the key descisionmakers in nokia who might promote maemo 5 on n900 - and get them into an ultimate fighting program. Jan 29 11:59:23 alterego: Yeah, but they'll put in a front-facing camera and then turn it off in s/w because it's shit. Jan 29 11:59:23 no, I forgot Jan 29 11:59:27 This leads us directly to the highly academic question of capacitance of your fingers compared to capacitance of your penis... Jan 29 11:59:32 RST38h: I also forgot to bug you Jan 29 11:59:37 (about that) Jan 29 11:59:38 zaheerm, indeed, it's the fact, they just don't want to come right out and say it. Jan 29 11:59:40 Jaffa: it looks fine in gtalk Jan 29 12:00:01 General: It does not sleep? Really? Jan 29 12:00:03 RST38h, ! Jan 29 12:00:04 RST38h: I really want a touch device that can work out which finger you touch it with. Jan 29 12:00:09 RST38h: it wakes every second Jan 29 12:00:12 * RST38h keeps FBReader running for days, seems to work ok Jan 29 12:00:14 RST38h: or is it half second Jan 29 12:00:15 Damion2: That's the official reason it's not properly enablable from within a VoIP call Jan 29 12:00:24 RST38h, what SpeedEvil said. Jan 29 12:00:25 SpeedEvil: May be the clock. Ok, iwill check Jan 29 12:00:30 Jaffa: actually, I don't thinikm the front facing camera is as bad as I thought it was. Jan 29 12:00:51 After streaming it to my laptop earlier this week. The quality looked quite resepctiable at QCIF Jan 29 12:00:52 RST38h, ah, good thinking. Jan 29 12:00:58 GeneralAntilles, that is to be expected though, don't see google or apple letting people know so much Jan 29 12:01:15 Jaffa: I thought that was because the h264 DSP codec isn't finished. Jan 29 12:01:37 alterego: were you in good light? Jan 29 12:01:38 Well, that was my estimation ... Jan 29 12:01:52 alterego: in sunlight - it's actually quite OK. Jan 29 12:01:53 RST38h, yeah, that appears to be it. Jan 29 12:01:59 SpeedEvil: no, I'll admit it is a bit dark, but then the main camera seems a bit dark to me too ... Jan 29 12:02:19 alterego: teh main camera however can get recognisable pictures in stupidly low light Jan 29 12:02:42 Yeah, well, it seemed to cope "okay" going through a brightnessfilter. Jan 29 12:02:43 So the clock shouldn't update when the screen's off or it's in the background. Jan 29 12:03:25 GeneralAntilles: or more trivially - every 30s Jan 29 12:03:48 but the previous would be good too Jan 29 12:04:19 huh. Google's working perfectly over mail for exchange.. email too. Jan 29 12:04:45 Another minor issue has been it's hard to pop out the 'menu' button from fullscreen without turning page. Jan 29 12:05:16 General: You turn off the clock and it stops? Jan 29 12:05:17 And the fullscreen button is annoying with portrait text upside down and touch-screen-paging - as it obscures the top-left of the text Jan 29 12:06:12 LMAO, They're playing "The Core" Jan 29 12:06:16 Heh, I bet the next tablet is an iPad like deevice. Jan 29 12:06:36 Larger, and unable to make phone calls. Jan 29 12:06:45 As long as they don't screw up the name so bad Jan 29 12:06:46 Firefox devs have already disabled flash :P Jan 29 12:07:29 RST38h, as far as I can tell by monitoring top for a minute or so. Jan 29 12:10:04 Jaffa: well before 1.1 the driver or something was awful. The mirror app makes it look dreadful, same with mplayer Jan 29 12:10:31 however if you switch /dev/video1 and 0 around and run mirror the better camera also looks blotchy and awful Jan 29 12:10:33 it was a bug in the driver, true Jan 29 12:10:45 I suspect a lot is the various v4l2 ioctls against the device node Jan 29 12:11:05 the mirror isn't doing anything and whatever gtalk video is using makes it seem pretty okay Jan 29 12:11:54 mplayer on the main camera looks good IMO Jan 29 12:11:58 very good Jan 29 12:12:15 mplayer tv:// -tv device=/dev/video0 Jan 29 12:12:16 SpeedEvil: because camera is good Jan 29 12:12:27 I mean WRT 'blocky' Jan 29 12:12:41 the same with video1 looks bad. Jan 29 12:12:50 unless you're in the brightest light Jan 29 12:14:13 mplayer tv:// -tv device=/dev/video0:width=320:height=240 -vf eq=77:100,eq=10:100,eq=50:100,scale=160:120,denoise3d=8:6:22,eq=0:99 Jan 29 12:14:13 - comedy night vision mode for the main cam Jan 29 12:14:31 in low-light - you may need to press 3 or 4 to tune brightness Jan 29 12:14:39 SpeedEvil: try comparing camera app and mplayer Jan 29 12:14:40 hello! Is there any 'Web Uploader' to Extras as 'Uploader to extras-devel'? Jan 29 12:14:52 Damion2: you mean mirror/ Jan 29 12:14:58 haven't installed Jan 29 12:15:01 oh Jan 29 12:15:08 SpeedEvil: mplayer, I've just compared and there is a difference Jan 29 12:15:11 * SpeedEvil is not properly awake Jan 29 12:15:12 let me try your 2nd line Jan 29 12:15:30 Damion2: that only works in very dark environments Jan 29 12:15:36 does ovi store use deb packages? or does it use some home grown stuff installed in a chroot environment or something? Jan 29 12:15:59 or you might try knocking off a couple of the eq, lines at the start Jan 29 12:16:26 SpeedEvil: also the main camera has fewer artifacts in the 1st place too Jan 29 12:17:00 so less to go bad. Point is I'm not 100% convinced the camera is that awful, did Nokia intentionally pick a cheap crap? It seems more likely to be the same as in the n97 or somesuch Jan 29 12:17:35 mirror makes both look awful, mplayer on the main cam is not as good as camera app so some software brightnest/contract effort has gone in to the code Jan 29 12:17:41 VGA cameras are typically under a dollar Jan 29 12:17:46 in volume Jan 29 12:17:47 wow Jan 29 12:18:00 so why use shit? is this just still more kernel driver issues? Jan 29 12:18:18 The spec is not as bad as the performance seems to be. Jan 29 12:18:24 Damion2: because nokia likes to use shitty chips Jan 29 12:18:29 At least what is available as the spec Jan 29 12:18:52 Damion2: my suspection is that they got few thousands of free samples as bonus when ordered other chips Jan 29 12:18:55 Damion2: because if you can save half a dollar and 30mm^3 in size on each unit... Jan 29 12:19:47 Why everyone thinks that the camera is awful? Jan 29 12:20:01 It is as good as cell phone cameras come Jan 29 12:20:10 RST38h: the main cam? Jan 29 12:20:11 RST38h: agreed. Jan 29 12:20:13 No it is not a replacement for your dedicated digital camera Jan 29 12:20:16 RST38h: I don't think it's bad Jan 29 12:20:34 RST38h: I think it's regrettably oversold on pixel count lies - but there is no escaping that. Jan 29 12:20:36 Uses tiny sensor and the optics are close to those of pinhole camera :) Jan 29 12:20:39 the front cam I think is bad Jan 29 12:20:43 damn, I really want to shake hand of the maemo 5 theme architect Jan 29 12:20:53 first time I called godwin's law on tmo Jan 29 12:20:56 wazd: Maemo5 comes with two themes Jan 29 12:21:01 and you can get better VGA cameras for around a couple of dollars. Jan 29 12:21:07 crash: So, who was the fascist this time? Jan 29 12:21:17 mods Jan 29 12:21:18 RST38h: I mean the whole theming algorythm Jan 29 12:21:32 wazd: Ah Jan 29 12:21:53 I'd quite like to look into maemo5 theming at some point/. Jan 29 12:22:12 anyone know status on vsync/tearing issues on the N900? Jan 29 12:22:23 Back on to the m6 support, tbh I'm more worried about them "locking down" the future devices. Jan 29 12:22:42 RST38h: actually his left foot cause he really did this magnificent job with it Jan 29 12:22:46 I think the N900 will be the last great hacker dream device. And the next ones will be pushed into operator branding hell. Jan 29 12:24:15 But seriously .. What a device :) Jan 29 12:24:21 cool, the turn by turn navigation works in maemo ovi maps, but it should have voice guiding Jan 29 12:24:32 crashanddie, gotta love Benny. :rolleyes: Jan 29 12:25:16 GeneralAntilles: I don't know if you replied yesterday. And I feel really bad for bugging you .. But .. device queue news? Is there somewhere I should be looking to stay up to date. You always seem to have your finger on the pulse ;) Jan 29 12:25:33 alterego, Quim hasn't added anything new since he said he was getting devices. Jan 29 12:25:36 RST38h: cause after all these bugs I have more annoyance than pleasure of making themes for maemo 5 Jan 29 12:25:38 alterego: I'm more worried about what they have "locked down" on the N900. if it was fully Free who would care about when nokia ends their "support" Jan 29 12:25:46 wazd: I am sure the right foot has been working on Modest then Jan 29 12:25:56 * SpeedEvil wants docs on cams. Jan 29 12:26:00 I want qgil to spend more time in IRC Jan 29 12:26:07 I don't feel he's a community manager anymore Jan 29 12:26:14 bfree: there's nothing that's locked down on the N900, ass long as we continue to use their kernel. We have full access to all the system. Jan 29 12:26:16 crashanddie, he's prioritized on other stuff. Jan 29 12:26:25 crashanddie, the council picked up a lot of his duties. Jan 29 12:26:49 crashanddie, I'd like to have a more dedicated community manager position at Nokia. Jan 29 12:26:51 he's barely involved in most topics, spends most time in developer or chess threads, and that's right about it Jan 29 12:27:10 alterego: not really. there are undocumented constants and stuff in some areas. Jan 29 12:27:26 crashanddie, I'm a bit worried that some of those idiots on Talk were the source of that. Jan 29 12:27:30 alterego: or at least I haven't found docs. For example - the camera specs Jan 29 12:27:48 SpeedEvil: sure, but that's the fun of investigation. development would be so boring if we didn't have to figure stuff out ourselves and hack it :) Jan 29 12:27:50 * Jaffa is kinda glad the council don't seem to be running with his suggestions - gives me a platform to run with (qgil's duties -> council -> ???) Jan 29 12:27:58 crashanddie, maybe the whole "Nokia should keep its hands off the community" Jan 29 12:28:13 GeneralAntilles: well, the community is slowly losing some of the most influential people it had Jan 29 12:28:17 Seriously, is there still a vacancy for UI designer at Maemo Team? Jan 29 12:28:49 wazd: unless you're prepared to move to Finland, don't bother applying Jan 29 12:29:04 crashanddie: well, why not? :) Jan 29 12:29:23 wazd: who at nokia do you know? Jan 29 12:30:18 crashanddie: mm, Ed Bartosh, Timofey Turenko Jan 29 12:30:29 Eero :D Jan 29 12:30:33 wazd: call them, get the name of the manager of the UI team, make a nice cover letter explaining you're a highly motivated individual, and ask your contacts to organise a lunch with the guy Jan 29 12:31:02 crashanddie: that's genius :) Jan 29 12:31:05 crashanddie: sounds like a plan :D Jan 29 12:31:26 if you already know said manager, fly over and have lunch with him, and discuss the position, be open about the fact you're willing to relocate, and be open about the fact you know the position is open and whatnot Jan 29 12:31:40 you'd be amazed how much can be achieved by a simple phone call or a lunch Jan 29 12:31:47 but hey it's Finland Jan 29 12:31:58 booooring country Jan 29 12:32:06 thresh doe Jan 29 12:32:08 erm Jan 29 12:32:09 die Jan 29 12:32:10 well, wazd is in Russia, so more like an upgrade than a downgrade Jan 29 12:32:13 wazd: where's your home now? Jan 29 12:32:19 at least it's not boring here Jan 29 12:32:20 :) Jan 29 12:32:29 Ah, hah Jan 29 12:32:30 GeneralAntilles, hi, how's that cloak coming along? :) Jan 29 12:32:32 I'm pretty bored here :D Jan 29 12:32:38 wazd: finished the uni? Jan 29 12:32:56 nothing boring about finland Jan 29 12:33:02 except living there Jan 29 12:33:16 it is very exciting to travel using public transportation Jan 29 12:33:22 wazd, make a beautiful icon for Extra Decoders Support then, 48x48px transparent, black background compatible Jan 29 12:33:23 :) Jan 29 12:33:29 wazd: I told my manager I was bored in my current job, and that I didn't get along so well with the new tech lead, 2 months later and now I'm in Australia, relocation paid by the company, and a brand new job Jan 29 12:33:38 How is Finland boring? :P Jan 29 12:33:41 you can never know if you will arrive late, or if you get stabbed while sitting Jan 29 12:33:53 it is ultimately boring Jan 29 12:34:03 crashanddie: why do you think moving to FI from RU is an upgrade? Jan 29 12:34:35 for someone who wants to be a designer and is interested in mobile? Jan 29 12:34:38 haha Jan 29 12:34:47 i work in a mobile company Jan 29 12:34:55 and we do need designers too from time to time ;P Jan 29 12:35:09 cool, the auto brightness works 8D Jan 29 12:35:11 thresh: not quite, but I don't think engineer grade will make much sense in design field :P Jan 29 12:35:21 wazd: it will. Jan 29 12:35:22 there's no major mobile company in russia, the whole technological hub is in europe (compared to russia), it's a much better idea to get closer to europe than remain in russia Jan 29 12:35:23 though, inversed Jan 29 12:35:29 PaulFertser: ^ Jan 29 12:36:10 thresh: but again, I haven't got enough money to pay the bribe for exam so I quit Jan 29 12:36:31 thresh: it's russia, you know :) Jan 29 12:36:34 crashanddie: to work for mobile companies? Hm... Well, for someone who wants to be a designer of silly end-user interfaces... Jan 29 12:36:50 career wise it's still a better plan Jan 29 12:36:54 PaulFertser: me? :P Jan 29 12:37:03 so either that's eletrotechnics, or i dunno Jan 29 12:37:05 electro Jan 29 12:37:10 you're better off being able to meet people rather than emailing them Jan 29 12:38:21 wazd: but really, i doubt nokia will allow you to do something you really want. Usually managers like stupid interfaces because they assume their users are stupid :| Jan 29 12:38:46 that's true Jan 29 12:38:47 they are Jan 29 12:39:01 Reality sucks Jan 29 12:39:10 Living here it's easier to ignore this fact ;) Jan 29 12:39:38 PaulFertser: what's the point of hiring a man to design UI's and not allowing to do it the same time? :) Jan 29 12:40:37 PaulFertser: Most users are stupid - that's true Jan 29 12:40:56 PaulFertser: but there is a difference between "stupid" UI and "simple" UI Jan 29 12:41:55 wazd: i do not remember seeing a simple UI that allowed me to be fast and precise. I guess it's mutually exclusive. Either it gives you power or it's simple. Jan 29 12:42:31 PaulFertser: I don't think so Jan 29 12:43:05 wazd: got a counter-example? Jan 29 12:43:05 PaulFertser: Look at the office Ribbon concept - it's really flexible and functional, but nice looking same time Jan 29 12:43:31 PaulFertser, you are mixing up configurability - its entirely possible to use a simple stylus stroke to fly a virtual plane Jan 29 12:43:53 What's ribbon? The new UI in MSO? I do not see how to use MSO productively for almost any kind of task. I've written my papers with LaTeX, you know. Jan 29 12:44:29 lcuk: if you want to fly it cool, you need _many_ controls. Jan 29 12:45:24 PaulFertser: http://www.prof-uis.com/img/elegantribbon/tour/vista-glass.png Jan 29 12:45:33 PaulFertser, use old style joysticks with only a few buttons and things. your assumed complexity (gimp/blender etc) isnt needed Jan 29 12:46:03 or better this: http://clintc.officeisp.net/Blogs/2006/17%20-%20Ribbon%20UI/Home.JPG Jan 29 12:46:54 PaulFertser: blender Jan 29 12:47:26 alterego: to me using their kernel is not a long term option, for one thing security vulnerabilities do happen in the kernel. and what about the phone and power management code. as long as you are beholden to Nokia for updates to components required to sanely use the device I think complaints are valid about them dropping support. Jan 29 12:48:44 lcuk: you need manual control for the thrust, for the flaps, for airbrakes, steering, rudder, trimmers for everything etc etc Jan 29 12:48:54 lcuk: for efficient operation Jan 29 12:49:45 http://i48.tinypic.com/2vwi80i.jpg Jan 29 12:50:18 PaulFertser: Planes have as good UI as it's possible Jan 29 12:51:30 wazd: ribbon ui is questionable. I can't see a usecase for that. For the actions i need to perform often i use shortcuts. For others rare actions i do not want to waste screen estate. Jan 29 12:51:57 PaulFertser: you can close any block Jan 29 12:52:15 wazd: planes do have many controls, they're not supposed to be operable by morons. While nokia assumes their customers do not want to learn shortcuts even for the most important actions. Jan 29 12:52:24 PaulFertser: and we're talking about newbie users, that don't use shortcuts Jan 29 12:52:26 red: http://kyon.pl/static/img/remiq.net_15101.jpg Jan 29 12:52:35 wazd: after closing unneeded blocks the interface effectively becomes classic menu+small toolbar. Jan 29 12:52:57 PaulFertser: you're starting to troll btw :) Jan 29 12:53:00 wazd: newbie should learn shortcuts for the actions they do anyway? Jan 29 12:53:04 wazd: i'm never trolling. Jan 29 12:53:12 If i ever do something simiral, that's unintentional. Jan 29 12:53:21 It's just the way i think and talk. Jan 29 12:53:23 Always Jan 29 12:53:37 PaulFertser: cause we're talking bout casual users and you say that "I use shortcuts" Jan 29 12:54:08 wazd: any non-moron uses shortcuts. Jan 29 12:54:22 PaulFertser: troll again :D Jan 29 12:54:28 It's not. I know that. Jan 29 12:54:39 PaulFertser: I don't know any possible shortcut for Photoshop Jan 29 12:54:49 Because you do not use it often. Jan 29 12:54:50 PaulFertser: Cause there are hundreds Jan 29 12:54:50 ctrl+s save :) Jan 29 12:55:02 PaulFertser: so I guess I'm a moron Jan 29 12:55:06 ctrl-s is stop tty output Jan 29 12:55:07 once you learn more than 15+ shortcuts you can't say that it's casual Jan 29 12:55:18 it's like dating a woman for 30 years casually Jan 29 12:55:31 glass_: I'm not a casual user indeed Jan 29 12:55:38 glass_: that's called win Jan 29 12:55:47 having a fuckbuddy for over 30 years? Jan 29 12:55:56 not necessarely win Jan 29 12:55:58 read a book or two Jan 29 12:56:48 wazd: are you happy using photoshop's UI? It's more flexible and sane than the latest MSO's. Jan 29 12:56:50 for start. the fuckbuddy would at least be 30 years older and still just a fuckbuddy Jan 29 12:56:51 you're not married are you? Jan 29 12:56:56 nope Jan 29 12:57:10 it shows :D Jan 29 12:57:11 but i envision myself havin sex with young girls when i'm old if i'm not married when i'm old Jan 29 12:58:08 you keep working on that ;) Jan 29 12:58:32 PaulFertser: It's old Jan 29 12:58:46 wazd: have you used AutoCAD btw? It has very fast and efficient command line, many cool shortcuts and a lisp dialect. That's what i call a professional tool. Jan 29 12:58:50 PaulFertser: and it's old cause it's for pro's Jan 29 12:58:56 but people i've known who've been very hyped up on having a fuckbuddy have done, hmm, not so well afterwards mostly Jan 29 12:59:03 what's MSO stand for? Jan 29 12:59:09 ali1234: msoffice Jan 29 12:59:15 ohgodno Jan 29 12:59:20 PaulFertser: and MSO UI is really flexible and intuitive btw Jan 29 12:59:27 ali1234: wazd is excited about its UI somehow... Jan 29 12:59:35 glass_: you'll have easier access to young girls if you're married with kids at school Jan 29 12:59:38 PaulFertser: You've never used it, how can you judge Jan 29 12:59:46 PaulFertser: troll again Jan 29 12:59:47 wazd: i did use it a little. Jan 29 12:59:49 I quit Jan 29 12:59:56 wazd: but it's of no use for my purposes, honestly Jan 29 13:00:07 Damion2: then it wouldn't be gentleman-like anymore Jan 29 13:00:09 wazd: it can't number figures and tables and formulas... Jan 29 13:00:25 having a "flexible and intuitive" user interface is usually an indication that the program has no really unique functionality Jan 29 13:00:38 all the actually good programs out there have terrible UIs Jan 29 13:00:59 ali1234: pfff Jan 29 13:01:00 ali1234: is emacs's UI terrible? I thought it's kind of logical and efficient... Jan 29 13:01:07 glass_: obviously they have to be over the legal age! 12 in loads of europe, 9 in yeman, 18 in the united states, land of the "free" ;) Jan 29 13:01:12 ali1234: I wouldn't even say how wrong you are Jan 29 13:01:29 hahaha, yes, emacs UI is appalingly bad, the only worse text editors are vi and ed Jan 29 13:01:34 wazd, he does have a point. Jan 29 13:01:47 UI wise that is, not to say they are bad software Jan 29 13:01:47 lcuk: absolutely not Jan 29 13:01:57 but the UI is the exact opposite of intuitive Jan 29 13:02:00 I use emacs on my device Jan 29 13:02:17 wazd, the most interesting program *for you* at the moment in the theme designer, its not simple to use Jan 29 13:02:37 and you need high levels of skill to make themes Jan 29 13:02:51 (yes, im rubbing your halo) Jan 29 13:03:11 if you have any idea what you are actually trying to achieve, "inuitive" UIs nearly always just get in the way Jan 29 13:03:21 lcuk: I don't use theme designer, I use PS Jan 29 13:04:03 ps can output themes now? Jan 29 13:04:14 i bet it can, with imageready Jan 29 13:04:19 lcuk: It can output .png file :) Jan 29 13:04:25 it probably isn't intuitive at all though Jan 29 13:04:43 i don't know how themes work though, is it lots of small files, or one big one? Jan 29 13:04:47 it's just creating an image, then slicing it up Jan 29 13:04:48 no? Jan 29 13:04:50 lcuk: then I use MADDE Jan 29 13:05:00 crashanddie: sure Jan 29 13:05:09 crashanddie: yeah, imageready does the "slicing up" part Jan 29 13:05:20 ok, here is theme source code, there is no intuitive ui to handle that correctly http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2240466/Maemo/Maemo.png Jan 29 13:05:28 so PS is as good as any tool to create the theme Jan 29 13:05:33 ali1234: MADDE does it, along with packaging Jan 29 13:05:36 ali1234: in my experience intuitive UI is almost always ineffective once you try to start being a "power user" of it. Jan 29 13:06:05 .- Jan 29 13:06:05 i don't disagree at all Jan 29 13:06:14 lcuk: that's not the whole theme Jan 29 13:06:18 lcuk: far from it Jan 29 13:06:27 * MohammadAG hit full root Jan 29 13:06:44 the photoshop killer feature is not the UI (dispite what the gimp haters say) - it is the fact it is integrated with all the other adobe suite Jan 29 13:06:50 lcuk: it's like showing a car's body and say "that's a car" Jan 29 13:07:22 in fact even photoshop developers admit the UI is not up to scratch, with too many different "new and more intuitive than ever before" widgets cluttering it up Jan 29 13:09:20 wazd & lcuk: THAT'S A CAR: http://richtigteuer.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/maserati_quattroporte_sport_gt_s_1.jpg Jan 29 13:09:43 crashanddie: that's an image of the car :P Jan 29 13:10:00 muggenzifter Jan 29 13:10:50 of a car with funny face btw :) Jan 29 13:14:39 wazd: most beautiful car in the world ;) (in my mind) Jan 29 13:15:57 looks a lot like what Jaguar produce Jan 29 13:16:34 <_berto_> gitorious is down Jan 29 13:16:44 <_berto_> the error message is "Guru meditation" Jan 29 13:16:58 I just cloned my stuff from there Jan 29 13:16:58 that's the old Amiga joke Jan 29 13:17:03 maybe it was too much Jan 29 13:17:08 wazd - what would be the ideal ui to make the theme designer Jan 29 13:17:17 <_berto_> I'm sure amigadave knows what that is Jan 29 13:17:21 so you dont have to use other outside tools Jan 29 13:17:42 * lcuk waves @ jonnylamb Jan 29 13:18:12 So, is there any reason the extras fremantle builder isn't offering PR1.1 packages? Jan 29 13:18:26 For example, https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/telepathy-haze_0.3.3-1maemo0/armel.build.log.FAILED.txt (PR1.1 has tp-glib 0.8.1). Jan 29 13:18:53 lcuk: Carbide.UI Jan 29 13:19:02 wazd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgcUI8gnvtg Jan 29 13:19:14 It *used* to, like https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/telepathy-salut_0.3.10-1/armel.root.log.OK.txt Jan 29 13:19:21 wazd: it's just splendid design Jan 29 13:19:41 X-Fade, is jonnylamb's problem explained anywhere? Jan 29 13:19:54 jonnylamb: it was decided that maemo5 sdk will be Pr1.0 one for whole eternity Jan 29 13:19:56 think its on -devel ML, they downgraded builder Jan 29 13:20:04 crashanddie: yeah, looks cool Jan 29 13:20:48 crashanddie: face reminds me BMW 6 somehow Jan 29 13:20:55 cool Jan 29 13:20:56 crashanddie: don't know why exactly Jan 29 13:21:00 my script can now digest stuff Jan 29 13:21:18 my n900 is likely busted. fricken sound issues again :-/ Jan 29 13:23:26 timeless_mbp: it's called a stomach Jan 29 13:29:52 gitorious is down! Jan 29 13:29:58 * lcuk runs round in circles pulling hair out Jan 29 13:30:25 you're missing the arm flapping and the random yelling... :) Jan 29 13:31:05 * lcuk flaps arms, pressed fire alarm button and jumps out of window Jan 29 13:31:11 :D Jan 29 13:31:11 :-D Jan 29 13:34:10 wow, starting to sound like a Nokia affiliated service Jan 29 13:35:09 wrong Jan 29 13:35:40 you shoud pull the table on the side, take cover behind it and scream "GITORIOUS DOWN!, NEED BACKUP!" Jan 29 13:36:15 gitorious sounds worryingly close to cli....s Jan 29 13:36:22 I suspect that's deliberate Jan 29 13:36:48 * lcuk climbs back up the building, in the window, heaves a table onto its side and feebly mutters "gitorious down, nee...... Jan 29 13:38:16 crashanddie, Maserati?! Jan 29 13:38:39 aye Jan 29 13:38:50 crashanddie, congratulations, any present and future opinions you have about cars are now voided. :P Jan 29 13:38:51 timeless, whats the url for your repo .install script - ill put the packages onto my other test machine Jan 29 13:39:11 wasn't git supposed to be distributed? Jan 29 13:39:12 GeneralAntilles: they're good cars, very reliable, look good, and are reasonably priced Jan 29 13:39:12 Maserati is the ultimate combination of luxury and sports car compromise fail. Jan 29 13:39:36 except that you cant drive it on most of roads Jan 29 13:39:52 what the hell kind of statement is that? Jan 29 13:40:03 thresh: that is probably true Jan 29 13:40:06 heh Jan 29 13:40:13 thresh: if you live in papua new guinea Jan 29 13:40:20 i actually almost do Jan 29 13:40:28 missus says when the volvo kicks the buckit she'll opt for a maserati :) Jan 29 13:40:44 * thresh shares the country with wazd Jan 29 13:41:16 crashanddie, it's a bad compromise between the two. Too much a sports car to match Mercedes for luxury, too much a luxury car to match BMW or Porsche for sport. Jan 29 13:41:26 lcuk: gitorious is up here ;o Jan 29 13:41:30 TomaszD, hush. Some people on the list have been waiting since early December. :P Jan 29 13:41:41 TomaszD, supposedly X-Fade is going to poke Freenode today. ;) Jan 29 13:43:02 GeneralAntilles: mercedes provides the same kind of luxury as you get in a dentist's office. BMW only provides sport if you're a banker or wear sunglasses on a rainy day, and porsche has made some of the greatest cars over the years Jan 29 13:43:05 GeneralAntilles, when I got this unaffiliated cloak a few years ago, I only had to wait a few minutes :P Jan 29 13:43:23 GeneralAntilles: I didn't say it was the best car in the world, I said it was my favourite car in the world, huge difference Jan 29 13:43:24 gitorious is alive again Jan 29 13:43:30 crashanddie, my two most favorite cars: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachments/super-cars-imports-india/116152d1238012863-restoration-project-my-1989-bmw-e30-316i-16.jpg http://www.cargurus.com/images/c6495/pic-61301.jpeg Jan 29 13:43:32 what about the dacier sandero ? Jan 29 13:43:45 GeneralAntilles: same as people marrying a specific chic. I might think she's but-ugly, and someone else will love her ;) Jan 29 13:43:52 TomaszD, currently you're waiting on X-Fade to finish putting out fires. :) Jan 29 13:43:59 TomaszD, besides, I waited 18 months for my freaking cloak. Jan 29 13:44:12 Damion2: if you're going to quote top gear, at least make sure you know the actual make of the car, it's dacia Jan 29 13:44:14 Since that's how long it took Freenode to process the group contact form. Jan 29 13:44:27 GeneralAntilles, next thing you tell me is to get off your lawn ;) Jan 29 13:44:28 TomaszD, I spent a year on the council and they managed to process it a month after I left. Jan 29 13:44:35 TomaszD, get off my lawn! Jan 29 13:44:47 * TomaszD gets off GeneralAntilles' lawn... Jan 29 13:44:48 _berto_: guru meditation, ah the memories :) Jan 29 13:45:35 crashanddie, oh, and quite possibly http://www.italiancarlinks.com/Lancia.jpg Jan 29 13:45:42 Although it's AWD . . . Jan 29 13:45:44 OP WARS! Jan 29 13:46:23 ah crap, cs pms you xD Jan 29 13:46:39 wazd, what theme is that orange one? Jan 29 13:47:21 crashanddie: paedant, I was just doing it phonetically as I cba to look it up Jan 29 13:47:36 pedant Jan 29 13:50:33 GeneralAntilles: maemo.org I guess Jan 29 13:50:43 wazd, is it your work, though? Jan 29 13:51:02 GeneralAntilles: no, AndrewFBlack's Jan 29 13:51:13 GeneralAntilles: and nokia's Jan 29 13:51:16 wazd, ah, newer than the one in Extras? looks different. Jan 29 13:51:30 I hear my naem Jan 29 13:51:44 GeneralAntilles: seriously, I don't know Jan 29 13:51:58 wazd, lol, OK then. Jan 29 13:52:03 * GeneralAntilles likes it. Jan 29 13:52:41 I was also going to spell phonetically incorrectly, probably phonetically. Nothing gets by you :) Jan 29 13:52:42 * crashanddie looks at the "Are there Maemo viruses" and shoots himself Jan 29 13:53:12 GeneralAntilles, what orange theme? Jan 29 13:53:23 AndrewFBlack: if you know maemo 5 theme architect btw - thank him for me please Jan 29 13:53:49 wazd, think it was (at least partially) tigert. Jan 29 13:54:01 crashanddie, I like the new Tegra thread. Jan 29 13:54:09 Hooray NVIDIA fanboys. Jan 29 13:54:16 heya Jan 29 13:54:35 sup guys ? Jan 29 13:54:46 wazd, joking or for real lol? Jan 29 13:55:39 What theme is GeneralAntilles talking about? Jan 29 13:55:43 AndrewFBlack: for real ofcourse Jan 29 13:56:26 AndrewFBlack: http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6596&stc=1&d=1264754229 <- do you know how to fix this? Jan 29 13:56:48 you mean the dark color? Jan 29 13:56:58 AndrewFBlack: yep Jan 29 13:57:51 wazd, just going to have to change the color on template if you want I can take a minute and find which on that is on template Jan 29 13:58:14 AndrewFBlack: I don't think that you'll find it Jan 29 13:58:33 AndrewFBlack: I think it's hardcoded Jan 29 13:58:53 wazd, its not yours looks red to me and mine is black Jan 29 13:59:11 it's kinda brown Jan 29 13:59:59 wazd, I really wish there was more color settings Jan 29 14:00:10 btw you still using theme maker? Jan 29 14:00:18 AndrewFBlack: nope Jan 29 14:00:26 wazd, k me either Jan 29 14:01:09 I´ve goten several PMs on t.m.o in the last few weeks that basiclly say my old themes looked like crap but my new ones look really good... I guess I take that as a good thing lol Jan 29 14:02:22 AndrewFBlack: when a theme architect is choosing same color for both text on dark background and text on bright background - I have only one PM in my head Jan 29 14:02:36 and a shadow btw Jan 29 14:03:21 amigadave, About? Jan 29 14:14:35 dneary: yep Jan 29 14:16:51 dneary: what should we do about the Extras consolidation, more information for developers like the suggestion on the mailing list? Jan 29 14:16:59 btw is extras building themes right again yet? Jan 29 14:17:28 I think there's a need for two distinct pages - one for users who want to add repositories and get extra apps, and one for users who want to distribute applicatiobns Jan 29 14:17:31 AndrewFBlack, Marina got built yesterday. Jan 29 14:18:09 And probably one more for "something's wrong, how can I figure out what, and get it fixed?" which will need Niels to be a little less busy so that we can quiz him Jan 29 14:19:00 ok Jan 29 14:19:22 sounds good, so we should split the pages and add a developers and users category to each? Jan 29 14:19:54 maybe even move the developer information to packaging Jan 29 14:22:20 I have setup a scratchbox host-gcc target, but it hasn't installed any packages (not even libc) Jan 29 14:22:58 but when I did the same on freemoe it did install basic dpkgs Jan 29 14:23:10 amigadave, What do you think about separating "building & packaging" from "uploading and distributing"? Jan 29 14:23:33 I think I'm going to have to port an application to Maemo & try to go through the Extras process to see the problems people are having Jan 29 14:23:54 dneary: good idea, Debian packaging is a topic in and of itself Jan 29 14:24:09 I see so many fremantle extras builder issues, there's obviously some problems there Jan 29 14:24:15 uploading is simple, the promotion process is currently a bit poorly-documented Jan 29 14:24:20 amigadave, The Packaging page is pretty good now Jan 29 14:24:27 And links to all the right sources Jan 29 14:24:28 yeah, it's coming along :) Jan 29 14:24:32 It's a merge of two pages Jan 29 14:24:39 i saw your edits, thanks Jan 29 14:26:29 I was going to work on renaming all the pages under PyMaemo not to use CamelCase and update the FOSDEM page with the latest info this afternoon, but I saw all the edits you've been doing the last couple of days, and wanted to let you know about a kind of TODO list for the wiki at "Maemowiki Action Group" Jan 29 14:27:04 Also - I've been thinking since the chat I had with Titta this week that it would be a good idea for me/us to start using Bugzilla for wiki & documentation bugs more than we have been Jan 29 14:27:13 dneary: yep, i have seen it, and i have fixed a few minor issues and generally adding links Jan 29 14:27:26 dneary: agreed, much easier to track stuff in bugzilla Jan 29 14:27:26 hi Jan 29 14:28:06 'moved to brainstorm' - it solves everything! Jan 29 14:28:23 does anyone of you whether its possible to intregrate pictures for example for pyqt4 ui's into the code? Jan 29 14:28:49 i see categorisation of pages as a priority, as it helps a lot with searching for related information Jan 29 14:31:20 amigadave, Yeah - I should keep that better updated :) Jan 29 14:31:28 Also better portal pages Jan 29 14:31:29 dneary: sounds like a very good idea Jan 29 14:31:43 Looking at orphaned pages and trying to figure out where they should be linked helps Jan 29 14:31:58 Developer documentation pages are still a mess btw Jan 29 14:32:00 lizardo, Which one? All my ideas are very good ;) Jan 29 14:32:02 ehlo Arkenoi Jan 29 14:32:05 yeah, there are lots of pages that are orphans or only linked from one page Jan 29 14:32:05 dneary: BTW, is there some page documenting the "writing conventions" you have been fixing on the wiki? Jan 29 14:32:22 RST38h: any specifics, or just a general comment? :) Jan 29 14:32:32 dneary: because I'd like to write well formatted wiki pages from start :) Jan 29 14:33:06 lizardo, Specifically? The Maemowiki Action Group page has some guidelines, as does the "Contributing to the wiki" page linked at the top of every edit page Jan 29 14:33:07 dneary: sorry, I was talking specifically about the snippet where you mentioned "PyMaemo" (which hilighted my xchat) :) Jan 29 14:33:16 lizardo, Ah Jan 29 14:33:38 dneary: I mean, things like "do not use camel case" or how to reference internal pages Jan 29 14:33:55 http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemowiki_Action_Group#Maemo_Wiki_Principles Jan 29 14:34:26 dneary: thanks, that was what I need :) Jan 29 14:34:31 http://wiki.maemo.org/Contributing_to_the_wiki Jan 29 14:34:38 (the Style section) Jan 29 14:35:01 In short, only proper nouns get a capital in a wiki page name Jan 29 14:35:27 amigadave, Do you know if there's a special page to identify all redirect errors? Jan 29 14:35:46 dneary, "errors"? Jan 29 14:35:50 dneary: only the double redirect page, although running some tools over the wiki database would probably give more information Jan 29 14:36:06 GeneralAntilles, A redirect which points to a redirect page gives an error Jan 29 14:36:08 there are tools that can give useful maps of orphaned or nearly-orphaned content Jan 29 14:36:35 It can happen if (say) a page gets renamed for a naming convention, and then the renamed page gets merged with another page Jan 29 14:36:45 You should update the first redirect to point to the merged page Jan 29 14:37:00 amigadave, Yes - I've seen that Jan 29 14:37:57 dneary: might be useful to make sure that pages don't go stale, but that should also improve naturally. i have been finding lots of gems of information and merging them where they belong Jan 29 14:38:03 for example, the Qt pages :) Jan 29 14:38:41 lizardo, In short for pointing to any internal wiki pages, [[Page name]] is better than [http://wiki.maemo.org/Page_name] - the latter can leave Page name considered as an orphan page Jan 29 14:39:28 amigadave, The Qt pages are particularly horrible for this reason: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3363 Jan 29 14:39:29 Bug 3363: wiki.maemo.org search does not find anything with short search terms Jan 29 14:39:53 http://abcnews.go.com/Health/EyeHealth/ultrasounds-miss-babies-born-eyes/story?id=9680013&cid=yahoo_pitchlist Jan 29 14:39:55 dneary: I also didn't know about the "/Page_name" trick for subpages, we were always using "Pymaemo/Page_name" ... I suppose you will be changing this while working on the PyMaemo pages ? Jan 29 14:40:03 amigadave, The best way to search for Qt content in the wiki is http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awiki.maemo.org+Qt&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a Jan 29 14:40:09 not just blind: NO EYES AT ALL Jan 29 14:40:30 lizardo, PyMaemo/Page_name is fine - /Page name is just shorter :) Jan 29 14:40:44 It's the http://wiki.maemo.org... links that we need to "fix" Jan 29 14:40:49 dneary: agreed, but the main problem was the huge mess of duplicated information, now mostly in the right place Jan 29 14:41:00 and some missing categories :) Jan 29 14:41:49 amigadave, The duplicate info was happening because people were searching for existing pages & not finding them Jan 29 14:41:57 In part Jan 29 14:42:12 dneary: and also a lot of the information was copied from the garage page wthiout checking Jan 29 14:42:27 but that's ok, it has now improved other documentation Jan 29 14:42:52 dneary: in another topic: has it been decided what to do with pre-fremantle information ? will it be consolidated on some global wiki section , or should each project organize pre-fremantle pages on their own? Jan 29 14:43:10 lizardo, That is a $64,000 question Jan 29 14:43:37 and what do we do when harmattan documentation appears? :) Jan 29 14:44:07 Which is better, maintaining Fremantle/USB networking, Diablo/USB networking and Bora/USB networking, or having one USB networking page with 80% of the content referring to older platforms? Jan 29 14:44:51 amigadave, Titta was saying that usually you just archive away everything, and start anew for the new version with the old stuff, and update anything that needs updating Jan 29 14:45:09 So you would have different versions of the wiki for Harmattan, Diablo, Fremantle, ... Jan 29 14:45:12 I would say - practically - 90% of people are going to be hitting it for hte n900 Jan 29 14:45:27 yeah, the latest platform is the most-used, probably Jan 29 14:45:32 It would probably have made sense way back in september or so to fork it. Jan 29 14:45:41 And move * to old_* Jan 29 14:45:47 SpeedEvil, That percentage changed Jan 29 14:45:50 s/move/copy/ Jan 29 14:45:50 SpeedEvil meant: And copy * to old_* Jan 29 14:45:52 s/ed/es Jan 29 14:46:00 yes, of course. Jan 29 14:46:02 dneary: I would prefer putting old documentation out of way, but still easy to read Jan 29 14:46:11 Find some way to get the old stuff out the way, I'd say. Jan 29 14:46:23 And having the old documentation ont he main page means that it will get edited to match n900 Jan 29 14:46:27 SpeedEvil, If you look at web browser version migration, 6 months after the release of a new browser, 40% of users are still using the old one Jan 29 14:46:28 something like : PyMaemo/Howto -> Diablo/PyMaemo/Howto Jan 29 14:46:31 by people not thinking about earlier devices Jan 29 14:46:47 dneary: Sure - but - that's not the case by a release of a new mass-market device Jan 29 14:46:49 so everything related to diablo would be under wiki.maemo.org/Diablo... Jan 29 14:47:03 Given that you need to buy new hardware to have Fremantle in your hands, it seems reasonable to me that a big chunk of the Maemo community are still on N800 and N810 Jan 29 14:47:19 Perhaps. Jan 29 14:47:23 lizardo, Sure, that makes sense Jan 29 14:47:40 lizardo, But then, let's say there's a FAQ which affects both Diablo & Fremantle Jan 29 14:47:51 yeah, there is a lot of shared information Jan 29 14:48:07 Do we expect someone to add it to FAQ and Diablo/FAQ? Jan 29 14:48:12 dneary: so maybe just use namespaces for all and none for shared? Jan 29 14:48:34 wiki/Install but wiki/Diablo/Repositories wiki/Fremantle/Repositories Jan 29 14:50:10 dneary: in that case it would exist only "FAQ" until that content really needs moving somewhere ... the point is to have the "general content" applicable to the latest product, and anything which becomes obsoleted or product specific be moved to Product/Page_name pages... IMHO Jan 29 14:50:16 hrw, It still gets tricky when you have pages like (say) USB networking where it was really complicated with a 770, and is pretty straightforward with an N900 Jan 29 14:51:02 it is going to be even easier in a short period of time Jan 29 14:51:17 If it's a tiny note then it seems OK. If it at all disrupts the latest explanation, I'd move it elsewhere. Jan 29 14:51:20 dneary: so make it wiki/770/usbnetworking (770^Wos2005/2006 only) and wiki/usbnetworking which will describe n8x0/n900 and have link to 770 one? Jan 29 14:51:25 like you would be able to define 'USB access points' and choose between them after pluggin the usb Jan 29 14:51:45 dneary: my feeling is that don't matter how it is arranged there will be always at least some content duplication ... I see we all agree that having everything-in-one-page does not work well :) Jan 29 14:51:52 we could hide the old content as sub-pages, e.g. Packaging moves to Packaging/Fremantle when Harmattan appears, and then have a tiny template at the bottom linking to the older information Jan 29 14:52:32 I think it needs to be case-by-case, we should definitely start some substructures for out-of-date information, but try to keep as much as possible in the main namespace Jan 29 14:52:55 amigadave, I prefer Fremantle/Packaging to Packaging/Fremantle Jan 29 14:53:04 It could even be Fremantle:Packaging Jan 29 14:53:17 dneary: either way is fine with me Jan 29 14:54:12 dneary: does moving to namespaces complicate the page search? IMHO there is already too much namespaces listed on the search page... :/ Jan 29 14:54:30 lizardo, Maybe Jan 29 14:54:45 It allows you to search for OS2008 specific content, for example Jan 29 14:54:57 * Damion2 almost couldn't breath just then as somebody came back to me after sending rather iffy link with "oh, that's what NSFW means" Jan 29 14:55:06 dneary: for instance, for each namespace there is a "Talk" namespace listed in http://wiki.maemo.org/Special:Search Jan 29 14:55:09 Creating namespaces required sysadmin access to config files for mediawiki though Jan 29 14:55:22 lizardo, That's configurable Jan 29 14:57:01 dneary: and what is that "maemo.org wiki" namespace ? Jan 29 14:57:08 Damion2: share iffy link Jan 29 14:57:58 dneary: my point is , if there are too manu namespaces, it becomes difficult to select the mark boxes on the search page... most users end up just leaving the default selection , which is the main namespace Jan 29 14:58:13 lizardo, I agree Jan 29 14:58:22 dneary: and we end up with duplicate pages on different namespaces :) Jan 29 14:58:23 And the maemo.org wiki namespace is a mystery to me Jan 29 14:58:56 dneary: maybe there should have a default to search on all namespaces... if we indeed want to have namespaces for each product Jan 29 14:59:08 red, we were discussing SRS over lunch, and I sent: http://www.supornclinic.com/restricted/SRS/Results.aspx to show how good the results can be Jan 29 14:59:19 that link is NSFW Jan 29 14:59:25 :D Jan 29 14:59:35 well you can peek, click on the thumbnails to zoom Jan 29 14:59:44 do it on your phone so it's small Jan 29 15:00:10 silly question, any good way to do so that big file transfers and unarchive tar files won't make the n900 unresponsive? (the cpu load is 100% all the time and you can't do anything until it's finished with the file) Jan 29 15:00:19 new catorise broke the menus Jan 29 15:00:53 TriztFromWork: could try storing the tar on another devices so it's much less condended Jan 29 15:00:58 I'd try echo 1 > /proc/sys/vm/swappiness before big unarchive Jan 29 15:01:03 and 100 afterwards Jan 29 15:02:11 100? ain't that quite high? Jan 29 15:02:19 it's the default Jan 29 15:02:22 lizardo, Ah - that namespace contains 2 pages, About and Legal Jan 29 15:03:04 ain't default 60, at least on other linuxes Jan 29 15:03:21 TriztFromWork: interesting, not something I've ever tweaked before Jan 29 15:03:32 in fact I just had to check I actually had any swap on my desktop Jan 29 15:03:49 I'm even using some! Jan 29 15:03:58 4GB is the new 256MB of the early 2000s Jan 29 15:04:18 I use the old recommended 2.5 Jan 29 15:04:30 I'm sure my voodoo2 3000 3d on p3 500 with 256MB ram ran like the clappers. That;s now a spec slightly lower than the n900 in my pocket Jan 29 15:04:43 hard drive space is so cheap so it don't matter Jan 29 15:04:45 TriztFromWork: on a laptop with potential suspend issues, I would Jan 29 15:04:55 Damion2: In some ways - P3/500 is lots faster in some ways Jan 29 15:05:05 this is a work desktop so I didn't set it up Jan 29 15:05:36 SpeedEvil: way back in the day, I remember being told that ARM wasn't great for context switching, so UNIX on it was doable, but not useful compared to RiscOS Jan 29 15:05:41 this was from RiscOS users Jan 29 15:06:08 modern x86 otoh much better, but nothing ike as good as sparc and PPC Jan 29 15:06:27 * TriztFromWork likes his PPc and Sparc Jan 29 15:06:54 of course now you have a cheap 8 core multi GHz x86 you're unlikely to bother with sparc unless you really want a reliable sun server with great remote console abilities Jan 29 15:07:02 100 is default on n900. 60 default in mainline linux kernel Jan 29 15:07:08 Niagra could have changed the playing field Jan 29 15:07:10 Damion2: which come on their x86 offerings anyway :) Jan 29 15:07:18 Damion2; big endian... mmm.... Jan 29 15:07:26 Caesium: they did i386 years ago with OpenBootProm Jan 29 15:07:27 Anyway. The PIII/500 is twice as fast as the n900. See http://tldp.org/HOWTO/BogoMips/bogo-list.html Jan 29 15:07:54 Caesium: then shat all over themselves with a stupid bios for new h/ware Jan 29 15:08:01 lol bogomips Jan 29 15:08:22 SpeedEvil: you're kidding with the BogoMips thing yes? Jan 29 15:08:37 Damion2: mostly, yes. Jan 29 15:08:44 seeing as a 300Mhz AMD in the 90s vs a 300Mhz Intel used to be double the difference for the same speed Jan 29 15:08:49 oh I was too late to ^U that Jan 29 15:09:10 Damion2: however, I would like to see benchmarks of the same software. Jan 29 15:09:29 is there geekbench for arm? Jan 29 15:10:18 SpeedEvil: Q3A was /just/ about playable on the p3 500 Jan 29 15:10:43 it seems comfortable on the n900 Jan 29 15:11:49 GeneralAntilles: if the posts I've been seeing lately are a glimpse of what the council has to endure, I sincerely apologise for having asked you to come back Jan 29 15:12:02 crashanddie, ;) Jan 29 15:12:49 Anyone here have a suggestion on good unit testing framework for C++? Jan 29 15:13:14 I'm this close |<----->| to ask to be removed from the moderation staff Jan 29 15:13:29 getting tired of writing gazillion source lines of code just for the test cases, it is so simple with JUnit and rspec :( Jan 29 15:13:34 crashanddie, just ignore it. Jan 29 15:13:35 hmph, hildon-home takes at times 60% cpu and everything's stuck for no apparent reason Jan 29 15:13:53 Milo-: boost? Jan 29 15:14:02 any experiences? Jan 29 15:14:09 Milo-: and cppunit Jan 29 15:14:17 cppunit seems outdated Jan 29 15:14:25 Damion2: yes - that's probably a rather later version Jan 29 15:14:43 been looking into boost and cppunit today, but I want to hear user experiences :) Jan 29 15:14:43 Damion2: I mean comparable code and compilers and leaving out hte gpu Jan 29 15:15:10 crashanddie: http://bleb.org/software/maemo/mwkn/front.html Jan 29 15:15:19 Milo-: I'm a java dev by trade, and for c++ I cat | g++ directly Jan 29 15:15:40 crashanddie I see Jan 29 15:15:49 Jaffa: sweet Jan 29 15:16:56 Jaffa: I want quotes around the quotes Jan 29 15:17:55 Jaffa, can't you exchange the Twitter logo for something less inane? :P Jan 29 15:18:12 GeneralAntilles: tim designed it Jan 29 15:18:17 GeneralAntilles: Which Twitter logo? The one in the paper? Speak to timsamoff Jan 29 15:18:23 Ah, I see. Jan 29 15:18:23 GeneralAntilles: post on the ML Jan 29 15:18:24 crashanddie: Indeed. Jan 29 15:18:33 crashanddie: s/ML/MWKN ML/ Jan 29 15:18:44 hmm? Jan 29 15:18:46 Jaffa, ah, crap something else I have to subscribe to? Jan 29 15:19:01 GeneralAntilles: It's for me to talk to the contributors; you're not a contributor :-p Jan 29 15:19:11 GeneralAntilles: Although I'd love you to be :) Jan 29 15:20:02 Damion2: as a slightly less-than-perfect benchmark - a similar mplayer -ao:pcm -bench file.mp3 - takes 1.8s on my c2d - not using both cores - and 35s on the n900. The clock is 2.7 times slower on the n900 - compared to the times which is 20 times longer Jan 29 15:20:19 Jaffa, I'll have to do some more reading on the requirements, I guess. Jan 29 15:20:43 GeneralAntilles: do you tweet? Jan 29 15:20:51 crashanddie, no. Jan 29 15:20:53 good Jan 29 15:20:54 GeneralAntilles: Basically, post to Twitter if you come across an interesting URL. Unless you want to be a sub-editor, in which case you can do that *and* flesh them out Jan 29 15:21:13 SpeedEvil: can you do that with -afm ffmpeg and -afm mp3lib ? Jan 29 15:21:30 not sure if it was exactly mp3lib, check -afm help Jan 29 15:21:49 the different mp3 decoders behave quite differently on different cpus Jan 29 15:22:03 yes Jan 29 15:22:07 whuich is why it's not great Jan 29 15:22:19 ffmpeg - 33 Jan 29 15:23:34 mp3lib - 35 Jan 29 15:24:11 ah not that big then Jan 29 15:24:14 no. Jan 29 15:24:25 it was pretty significant with aac libfaad vs ffmpeg Jan 29 15:24:27 https://datatype.helixcommunity.org/Mp3dec Jan 29 15:24:29 * hrw -> off Jan 29 15:24:30 is interesting Jan 29 15:24:41 fixed point optimised decoder Jan 29 15:28:26 Hrm ... hildon stock icons .. Jan 29 15:28:56 ShadowJK: on the laptop - ffmpeg is half the speed Jan 29 15:29:32 This benchmark is of course flawed for any number of reasons. The n900 might not like Pink Floyd forex. Jan 29 15:29:39 So .. I'm trying to create a stock ToolbarButton, but it's giving me default gtk themed icons .. Jan 29 15:30:04 hi Jan 29 15:30:13 how do I install xhost on maemo? Jan 29 15:30:31 GeneralAntilles: I'm out, take care Jan 29 15:30:35 Jaffa: nice work on mwkn Jan 29 15:31:33 crashanddie, later. Jan 29 15:31:56 hrrm, isn't NSU supposed to blank the entire n900? Jan 29 15:32:09 Hey hey Jan 29 15:32:12 tybollt, no. Jan 29 15:32:16 Just the OneNAND Jan 29 15:32:18 tybollt: no Jan 29 15:32:19 GeneralAntilles: gotcha Jan 29 15:32:21 facebook users, is there any app that would notify me when I get a message Jan 29 15:32:24 or comment or smth? Jan 29 15:32:29 not ~ or mydocs Jan 29 15:32:29 is xhost on some other package? Jan 29 15:32:34 xauth? Jan 29 15:32:43 GeneralAntilles: There a way to tell it to blank it _all_ :) Jan 29 15:32:53 tybollt, grab the eMMC image from tablets-dev and flash it. Jan 29 15:33:12 check, will do Jan 29 15:35:05 hi all. Jan 29 15:35:50 where can I find xhost for maemo? Jan 29 15:37:01 xauth/host would be nice Jan 29 15:37:10 I had xauth on fremantle I think Jan 29 15:37:22 didn't work as well as I expected... Jan 29 15:37:46 * mgedmin wanted remote clipboard sharing by doing things like echo $url|ssh -X mg-n810 xsel Jan 29 15:38:18 no, that makes no sense actually Jan 29 15:38:33 mgedmin, turn off the clock in FBReader to make it sleep. Jan 29 15:38:43 I think I have it turned off Jan 29 15:38:45 * mgedmin checks Jan 29 15:38:55 nope Jan 29 15:39:00 GeneralAntilles: that's not an ideal solution though. sleep 30 instead of sleep 1 would be good Jan 29 15:39:16 SpeedEvil, sure it isn't, but it's workable until RST38h fixes it. ;) Jan 29 15:39:42 prolly as easy just to shut it Jan 29 15:39:48 it starts up back in same pos Jan 29 15:40:06 SpeedEvil, I like having it open and available. Jan 29 15:40:08 Saves taps and time. Jan 29 15:40:28 true. Jan 29 15:40:39 though desktop -> one tap Jan 29 15:40:53 I want the top bar on the task selector though. Jan 29 15:40:56 mgedmin, I need it to forward X from n810 to desktop Jan 29 15:40:56 That annoys me. Jan 29 15:41:15 SpeedEvil, plus having to fullscreen it again Jan 29 15:41:17 and wait to load. Jan 29 15:41:26 mgedmi: you also need xsel Jan 29 15:41:37 Aquarina: xhost phone on desktop. ssh -X desktop - on phone. Jan 29 15:41:42 now whatever Jan 29 15:42:08 iirc mp3lib is floating point, ffmpeg fixed point Jan 29 15:42:23 libfaad has both, the fixed point doesn't really wotk though Jan 29 15:42:24 mgedmin: in fact if you want to trivially send a url to the phone you don't need xauth you actually want DISPLAY to be :0 Jan 29 15:42:59 ShadowJK: the link I posted was to fixed Jan 29 15:43:08 SpeedEvil, didn't understand you tip Jan 29 15:43:24 What i need is to see n810 applications on my desktop Jan 29 15:43:28 I was trying wmctrl to make a fullscreen terminal and it didn't work, no matter what I tried the 80x24 kept ending up 79x23 with an obvious one character wide/high line around the edge Jan 29 15:43:30 not the other way around Jan 29 15:43:47 well... heve to go Jan 29 15:43:50 Aquarina: ssh phone - from desktop. set xhost - on desktop to allow phone. ssh -x desktop - from phone Jan 29 15:44:16 Aquarina: ssh fwding I find slow, use direct X with tcp permitted and xauth usbnet/btnet/wifi-IP +ed Jan 29 15:44:35 though that too Jan 29 15:45:00 Is that a _no_ then? Jan 29 15:45:08 what is dropbear command to ssh? Jan 29 15:45:20 ssh doesn't seem to be on the path!... Jan 29 15:45:36 Matthew-: the homescreen widget or signin to facebook via the IM client on the phone? I dunno, but I think what you want can/is done Jan 29 15:45:47 Aquarina: openssh is there in the main repositories Jan 29 15:45:54 is mp3dec same as mpg123 derived mp3lib? Jan 29 15:45:56 meh. Angrybirds doesn't work. Jan 29 15:46:00 (remotely) Jan 29 15:46:03 Aquarina: dbclient is dbclient rather than ssh Jan 29 15:46:15 SpeedEvil: too local GL-y ? Jan 29 15:46:40 Damion2: Nope, the homescreen widget only shows statuses. Jan 29 15:46:48 glex on n900, gl on other machine? Jan 29 15:46:51 gles* Jan 29 15:46:54 Matthew-: I saw updates and text when I took a look Jan 29 15:47:06 Damion2: eglGetDisplay() Failed Jan 29 15:47:11 ShadowJK: I'm unsure of now X-able GL stuff is at all Jan 29 15:47:27 Damion2: but i mean, something that would notify me that ive got a message in my inbox Jan 29 15:47:31 or a comment, Jan 29 15:47:36 not really interested in the IM Jan 29 15:47:37 Matthew-: I'm 90% certain I saw that Jan 29 15:47:49 Matthew-: a pull down with something like (4) messages Jan 29 15:47:51 well... I just couldn't do it Jan 29 15:47:54 off the large mainscreen widget Jan 29 15:47:56 idont think x over tcp/ip is gl supported too Jan 29 15:47:59 try again later Jan 29 15:48:06 sorry, have to go Jan 29 15:48:08 bye Jan 29 15:48:12 Damion2: that's the statuses. Jan 29 15:48:42 hmm, well if it's not obvious on the widget then I guess it doesn't. I don't use FB it's arse Jan 29 15:48:50 I have a login cos my wife set it up Jan 29 15:48:59 ;-) Jan 29 15:49:00 not that she uses it much either Jan 29 15:49:10 we're on the same mud Jan 29 15:49:10 Damion2: Oh I can run flgightgear on my atom330 box and siaplay it remotely on my nvidia equipped quadcore box, and it's faster than fg locally on atom330 Jan 29 15:49:20 ShadowJK: yeah? Jan 29 15:49:34 hmm well I guess the odd GL command could fit down a network and get the local card to do fancy 3D rendering Jan 29 15:49:47 that was how I always imagined it would work, but the few times I've ever tried it it's never worked at all Jan 29 15:50:11 GL is even more local specific for speed than something just using SDL, XV or even old MIT SHM Jan 29 15:50:24 all of which can't xmit well over plain tcp Jan 29 15:50:24 timeless_mbp: should i file a bug if long-click on a .pdf link in microb does not yield a "Copy link" menu item? Jan 29 15:51:46 sdl and xv just push pixels Jan 29 15:52:07 the XVIDEO extension ? Jan 29 15:52:42 SDL falls back to raw X11 but uses DRI when local doesn't it? I think I mean DRI rather than sdl, seeing as you're right it will X Jan 29 15:52:56 sdl being the lib which does the work of working out the fastest thing for yuo Jan 29 15:56:01 Hrm... I miss being able to send SMS via bluetooth from my desktop Jan 29 15:57:29 SplasPood: DUN support provides an AT command over BT (or usb) are you certain you can't do the right AT stuff for sms ? Jan 29 15:58:40 Damion2: Hrm... ya know, I haven't really tried... What do people use for that under Linux these days, I used to do this on the mac Jan 29 15:59:14 rfcomm and minicom Jan 29 15:59:25 and bing for finding the right AT commands Jan 29 15:59:40 heh Jan 29 15:59:44 or cuil or Google it's your choice Jan 29 15:59:59 gnokii or something like that used to do the AT stuff for you, oh probably the rfcomm set up too Jan 29 16:00:09 I'm serially on with usb now, let me check... Jan 29 16:00:33 Well yes, I knew how one would do it manually ;) Jan 29 16:00:51 dneary: is there any preference over using references (...) vs. direct links ([http://www.example.org/ Example]) on Maemo Wiki pages ? Jan 29 16:01:04 AT+CMGW Jan 29 16:01:05 ERROR Jan 29 16:01:46 AT+CMGW="447801741582" Jan 29 16:01:50 doh Jan 29 16:02:01 oh that's a bit annoying this is logged and put online Jan 29 16:03:19 oh wow and I got it working Jan 29 16:03:31 AT+CMGS rather than W Jan 29 16:04:03 I just sent myself Hello World, so it seems whatever tools people used before should work exactly the same with the n900 as it would on an older phone Jan 29 16:04:16 :) Jan 29 16:04:17 I liek that nokia went to that effort, unlike iPhone/Android Jan 29 16:04:18 Good to know Jan 29 16:04:29 Damion2: yea, thats why I just assumed it wouldn't work ;) Jan 29 16:04:36 does anyone know who moderates the logs that get uploaded frmo #maemo ? Jan 29 16:04:56 SplasPood: reasonable assumption. Especially with a launch lacking mms and video calling Jan 29 16:05:25 I'm very pleased that they've gone to the efforts of making some normal phone stuff still work despite the OS being linux and they clearly had to imlpement stuff to get there Jan 29 16:05:30 even if I hardly use it Jan 29 16:05:57 GeneralAntilles: what cloak am I entitled to? Just had an oper ask me Jan 29 16:06:03 Last nokia device I had, and loved, was the N95 and I used to do this all the time there, but then it's been some android since then and well.. yea Jan 29 16:06:08 GeneralAntilles: just community/contributor? Jan 29 16:06:19 crashanddie, Maemo/community/contributor/crashanddie Jan 29 16:06:35 Unless you want to be Maemo/community/villageidiot/crashanddie Jan 29 16:06:38 I'd be OK with that. ;) Jan 29 16:07:10 Anyone know what the stock_icon_id's for the presence icons are? I wanna use online offline icons. Jan 29 16:07:26 crashanddie: Now quotes in the CSS, btw Jan 29 16:07:42 Jaffa: awsum Jan 29 16:07:44 can i really get a villageidiot cloak?? Jan 29 16:08:18 unaffiliated is dull Jan 29 16:09:45 GeneralAntilles, whos the groupcontact? i got a capital C in community and the oper wont change it ;D Jan 29 16:09:53 X-Fade Jan 29 16:10:09 That'd be my typo from the bug, unfortunately. Jan 29 16:10:10 Sorry. Jan 29 16:10:21 GeneralAntilles: yes? Jan 29 16:10:39 X-Fade: could you request a change on my cloak to "Maemo/community/contributor/frals"? Jan 29 16:10:41 X-Fade, lowercase c in community. Jan 29 16:12:14 frals: requested. Jan 29 16:12:22 thanks :) Jan 29 16:12:30 done Jan 29 16:12:31 he, 2 seconds later it changed :-) Jan 29 16:13:01 X-Fade, how hard is it to set a secondary contact? Jan 29 16:13:41 andy80 needs to set his email before he gets his cloak. Jan 29 16:14:17 GeneralAntilles: I don't know. I think there can only be one founder. Jan 29 16:14:56 X-Fade: it is possible Jan 29 16:15:13 http://freenode.net/group_registration_form.php Jan 29 16:15:16 request type alternate Jan 29 16:15:50 X-Fade: actually, I got my cloak before I had the email set ;) Jan 29 16:16:04 w00t, so, another 18 months until that's processed. Jan 29 16:16:08 X-Fade: and I already had a cloak before without an email... The oper just asked me to add it afterwards Jan 29 16:16:17 w00t, I guess we'll have to guess who'll be chair by that time. ;) Jan 29 16:16:19 Okay, why would my python script not have maemo themed icons when using gtk.STOCK_* Jan 29 16:16:29 w00t: I've registered a group using that about 4 years ago and am still waiting Jan 29 16:16:31 Executing on device using run-standalone.sh Jan 29 16:16:33 GeneralAntilles: I don't have recent first hand knowledge, but when I last looked into such stuff, alternate approvals were given priorities Jan 29 16:16:43 w00t: in the meantime, I've graduated and the group is not used anymore... Jan 29 16:16:52 crashanddie: there's a massive queue, well into the thousands Jan 29 16:17:21 (again, I don't have first hand knowledge: I last knew about this stuff quite some months ago) Jan 29 16:17:32 so don't tell people it's possible Jan 29 16:17:57 crashanddie: um. as I said, from how the situation *was*, changes to existing groups are given priority Jan 29 16:20:05 http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/201001/errord/Processing-WTF.jpg Jan 29 16:21:50 :) Jan 29 16:38:59 Hah, well. I wont mind, just send me the pictures. Jan 29 16:44:04 oh dd if=/dev/zero of=sparse-file bs=1 count=0 seek=500M on MyDocs isn't fast, I guess fat32 doesn't support sparce Jan 29 16:44:09 s/ce/se/ Jan 29 16:44:10 Damion2 meant: oh dd if=/dev/zero of=sparse-file bs=1 count=0 seek=500M on MyDocs isn't fast, I guess fat32 doesn't support sparse Jan 29 16:45:28 no, no sparse on fat Jan 29 16:49:19 still, loopback mounted large files on MyDocs works fine so I have some chmodable space to grow in to Jan 29 16:49:56 and the mount with exec works Jan 29 16:50:35 how do i update menu icons? Jan 29 16:51:24 X-Fade: ping Jan 29 16:51:57 lbt: pong Jan 29 16:52:04 http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Linux_Commands Jan 29 16:52:12 "Nokia Mobile has become fashion of the mobile lovers slowly and steadily because,we note the current trends " Jan 29 16:52:17 http://nokiamobile.biz/ Jan 29 16:52:20 :( Jan 29 16:52:52 could be a one off thingy but FYI :) Jan 29 16:53:29 lbt: Our anti spam master GeneralAntilles seems to have missed that ;) Jan 29 16:56:19 I hardly watch the wiki anymore. Jan 29 16:56:33 see, that's how my Facebook Widget looks Jan 29 16:56:33 http://img.inerd.me/MISC/Screen.png Jan 29 16:56:46 and well, kinda useless w/o being notified when i get a new message or wall comment. Jan 29 16:59:15 Matthew-: I had an extra box to the side with something like a (4) for 4 new messages, that I could click on Jan 29 16:59:54 Damion2: but _how_ :D Jan 29 17:00:09 it's same widget, no settings there. Jan 29 17:01:44 Damion2: and well, would be nice if the statuses would be rollable Jan 29 17:02:21 Matthew-: I might have let it get updated frmo a newer repository Jan 29 17:02:34 are you sure you're getting any new messages? maybe you're much less popular than you reliased? ;) Jan 29 17:02:42 or your desktop version is nabbing them first Jan 29 17:02:52 Damion2: got 3 messages Jan 29 17:02:54 or (60% chance) I;m just mistaken and I didn't see that at all and I'm just confused Jan 29 17:03:00 :-) Jan 29 17:03:42 Damion2: and ive got all upgraded to testing :D Jan 29 17:06:29 pdf reader doesnt let me hilight and copy text... Jan 29 17:06:52 So, urm, anyone know why I'm not getting maemo icons instead of the default gtk stocks? Jan 29 17:07:34 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?s=7620f7573b538be62ba5bae20427362d&t=39892 Jan 29 17:07:40 can anyone answer to this? Jan 29 17:08:12 evince i guess Jan 29 17:08:15 is there a --with-db option? Jan 29 17:08:52 i bet many people would have been turn off on open source software forever by receiving the 700$ unusable n900 i received yesterday and they would just exchanged it for an iphone Jan 29 17:10:18 uhsf: didn't you just get in a reboot loop after trying the over the air update? I think a flash would have fixed Jan 29 17:10:19 alterego: yeah seems so Jan 29 17:10:30 dunno what kind of berkeleydb scratchbox has Jan 29 17:10:31 brb Jan 29 17:10:39 2 year warranty :) Jan 29 17:11:31 Damion2: i did absolutely nothing. first boot went into reboot loop Jan 29 17:12:11 i don't have time to look for flashing now it'll have to wait a few days Jan 29 17:12:23 I vaguely recall you're mentioning it was doing it's own update. But I'm probably wrong then if you just got it and rebooted it Jan 29 17:14:30 Hey, I've got the global release of 51-1 on my N900... looking through dpkg -l theres alot of non-english extra packages for various things... is there an easy way of uninstalling them all to perhaps a) save space and b) make my dpkg -l list look tidier? Jan 29 17:14:51 no Jan 29 17:15:19 grep Jan 29 17:16:08 there are not-easy way to uninstall them, and it will result in you not getting updates anymore Jan 29 17:17:10 err... anyone with n900 experiences problems connecting to skype? Jan 29 17:18:25 i experience problems booting the n900 Jan 29 17:19:28 it pops up a short message saying internal error application camera closed... application phone closed Jan 29 17:19:54 slonopotamus, I've had failed attempts, but trying a second time works (probably network issues) Jan 29 17:20:11 and then back to the full white nokia screen Jan 29 17:20:44 uhsf, seems that you mess up your system Jan 29 17:21:04 VDVsx, can you go fill out an alt contact form for Freenode? Jan 29 17:21:21 what's that ? lol Jan 29 17:21:33 we need generalised closning mechanisms Jan 29 17:21:37 cloning Jan 29 17:21:46 VDVsx, http://freenode.net/group_registration_form.php Jan 29 17:21:49 Select Alternate Jan 29 17:21:58 VDVsx, so we can set you up as a backup contact for X-Fade. Jan 29 17:22:42 anything in the approved by field? Jan 29 17:22:49 uhsf: is this a 2nd device ? Jan 29 17:23:09 VDVsx, X-Fade. Jan 29 17:23:14 if so, it's extremely unlikely to be a 2nd DOA, you must be doing something wrong. Rebooting with the camera slider open ? Jan 29 17:24:21 ShadowJK: apt-get remove --purge *-cscz *-dadk *-dede *-enus *-eses *-esmx *-fifi *-frca *-frfr *-itit *-nlnl *-nono *-plpl *-ptpt *-ruru *-svse Jan 29 17:24:24 Bad idea :) Jan 29 17:24:59 ? Jan 29 17:25:51 en_US ? Jan 29 17:26:03 yeah well I'm en_GB Jan 29 17:26:06 I would recommend more removing that even if you're not from there Jan 29 17:26:24 * Damion2 is british too, but it'll no doubt be a dependancy on stuff :) Jan 29 17:26:34 are these really that large? Jan 29 17:26:36 well I'll see if apt-get doesn't like it :) Jan 29 17:26:43 dunno - but my dpkg list is a mess with them in lol Jan 29 17:26:46 I found about 30MB of libs are Qt stuff, which somebody will likely optify Jan 29 17:26:48 Damion2: HP sauce? Jan 29 17:27:00 Damion2: Branston Pickle? Marmite? Jan 29 17:27:09 the rest of my 50MB of / space is ample for the odd symlink for apps as I install them over the years IMO Jan 29 17:27:11 hmm apt-get doesn't like wildcards Jan 29 17:27:17 SpeedEvil: I like twiglets Jan 29 17:27:31 Lantizia: use grep -v Jan 29 17:27:32 Lantizia: shell is probably expanding them, quote them? Jan 29 17:27:39 damion2: space isn't an issue for me either as most of usr, var and also opt run from /home partition which is 17gb Jan 29 17:27:42 it's busybox dpkg too Jan 29 17:27:43 VDVsx, it fails to connect for several hours already Jan 29 17:27:48 but I want a tidier package listy Jan 29 17:27:54 Lantizia: oh you've partitioned around ? Jan 29 17:28:14 Damion2, yeah /home is 17gb and MyDocs is 8gb with USB working Jan 29 17:28:27 or something like that Jan 29 17:28:32 Lantizia: yeah looked doable but I dont' even mind 2GB for the moment Jan 29 17:28:39 if I run low I'll backup and re partition Jan 29 17:28:42 I can send you my instructions if you like Jan 29 17:29:08 slonopotamus, you only have the skype account enabled or you've others ? Jan 29 17:29:08 I've skimmed a few pages, I have like 15 years experience, I doubt I'll break it ;) Jan 29 17:29:19 oh ok lol :P Jan 29 17:29:44 * Damion2 used linux and sunos since 1993ish at uni and not looked back Jan 29 17:29:50 damion2: tip tho... just use sfdisk since it's already on there - much easier than trying to get any other tool to do the job Jan 29 17:30:18 seem some pages where people are crazily compiling fdisk or cfdisk Jan 29 17:30:37 fdisk can't be hard Jan 29 17:30:46 yeah I contemplated changing the daemon that exports the partiion, to export the whole disk after remounting ;/home as RO and letting a desktop cfdisk it Jan 29 17:31:06 I can't be the only person that thought of that easier option that crosscompiling cfdisk ;) Jan 29 17:31:15 I'll man sfdisk if I do it :) Jan 29 17:31:40 I like keeping the two partitions, don't want to edit scripts that might break with updates anyway - 2gb for /home was silly and I didn't need 27gb for the USB part Jan 29 17:31:44 that easy debian chroot might be an easier way to get cfdisk etc? Jan 29 17:32:04 Caesium: it could be hard, I think it prods some INT10 stuff in a bios-y but still in protected mode kinda way (like Xorg) to work some geometry stuff out Jan 29 17:32:06 Anyway! apt-get wildcards!? :D Jan 29 17:32:16 Damion2: why mention grep? Jan 29 17:32:26 tidier dpkg -l output :) Jan 29 17:32:35 Lantizia: doesn't quoting them to work to escape the attention of the shell? Jan 29 17:33:04 nope Jan 29 17:33:08 as for 27GB usb yeah, and limited to fat's 4GB is a pain, I found I use usbnet and ssh most of the time, I can rsync scp and if I get roudn to it, will sshfs or nfs export the phone for file copying Jan 29 17:33:17 mounting fat is a pain anyway Jan 29 17:33:59 Damion2: yeah I NFS export my microsdhc save me taking it out Jan 29 17:34:06 VDVsx: how does it seem i messed up my system? i open the box of a brand new n900, insert the battery, press the power button, perpetual reboot loop. Jan 29 17:34:16 surely if debian chroot works, then copying the right libs, some ld-linux.so kludgy fun, should permit you to run stuff under the main maemo rather than staying in the chroot, not to mention it indeicates a reasonable chance of easy crosscompile ? Jan 29 17:34:31 Damion2: this is my first n900 Jan 29 17:34:36 uhsf: oh still that one Jan 29 17:34:47 anyone got idea why maemo sdk/armel scratchbox is not resolving anything via DNS? Jan 29 17:34:49 uhsf: sim card? microsd card ? Jan 29 17:34:54 it has correct resolv.conf/nsswitch.conf Jan 29 17:35:09 nameserver 8.8.8.8 ? Jan 29 17:35:12 Damion2: i have not inserted any of these yet Jan 29 17:35:24 Damion2: nope, but local DNS same which VMWARE uses Jan 29 17:35:31 you get instant exchange of DOA N900s :) Jan 29 17:35:39 ifreq, check /scratchbox/resolv.conf too Jan 29 17:35:49 uhsf: camera opened when you boot, or not opened? if you've tried these thignsg you can say it's DOA and get new, or try flashing Jan 29 17:35:49 uhsf, so you should contact the store, it clearly has problems Jan 29 17:35:50 mgedmin: its checked :/ Jan 29 17:35:55 there are two files: one in the target's /etc, one global /scratchbox/etc Jan 29 17:36:24 mgedmin: you mean /scratchbox/etc/resolv.conf? Jan 29 17:36:26 yeah Jan 29 17:36:29 the latter is used Jan 29 17:36:29 I was annoyed to have to insert a sim to get mine to work down stairs in my house (UK's ch13 wifi) Jan 29 17:36:30 * mgedmin nods Jan 29 17:36:49 this is so annoying doa means to wait almost another complete month Jan 29 17:36:53 Damion2, there's an open bug for that, I believe Jan 29 17:37:11 mgedmin: I recall one closed as won'tfix as it's a way to stay regulatory Jan 29 17:37:18 ah Jan 29 17:37:23 my sim let it know I was in the "country of EU" and it started working Jan 29 17:37:42 I tried to find which daemon / kernel module and faff aroundforcing it to think EU but I couldn't see anything Jan 29 17:37:48 uhsf: try this? http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Jan 29 17:38:04 mgedmin: thanks atleast /scratchbox/etc/resolv.conf was empty.. restarting Jan 29 17:38:07 android just has a check box, it doesn't even mention country it just asks "how many channels do you want 11 13 or 14" Jan 29 17:38:08 uhsf, no if the device has less than 15 days, they have to give you a new one, right away Jan 29 17:38:44 I opened mine on xmas day after almost 13 days of buying it Jan 29 17:38:49 I was lucky Jan 29 17:39:08 * Caesium got N900 from expansys about 3 days after ordering, didn't see what the big deal was about shortages :) Jan 29 17:39:15 though it did come with a USA plug so suspect it's an import Jan 29 17:39:24 * SpeedEvil got his on Nov 30, after about a month Jan 29 17:39:50 somebody invited me to the summit but I have kids to look after, he got a free one the bast***d Jan 29 17:39:57 loan Jan 29 17:39:58 :P Jan 29 17:40:07 oh yes that's true it's a "loan" ;) Jan 29 17:40:45 how long left on rthat loan? Jan 29 17:41:09 anyone living in central London ? Jan 29 17:41:36 i USED to live in central london :P Jan 29 17:41:36 apt-get remove --purge .*-cscz .*-dadk .*-dede .*-enus .*-eses .*-esmx .*-fifi .*-frca .*-frfr .*-itit .*-nlnl .*-nono .*-plpl .*-ptpt .*-ruru .*-svse Jan 29 17:41:49 Meh, at last Jan 29 17:41:50 That'll do it! will I break Maemo tho ShadowJK Jan 29 17:42:17 Lantizia: I think it'll be okay, but I would urge you to leave .*-enus Jan 29 17:42:23 * wazd curses +R Jan 29 17:42:48 * Damion2 heads off to collect the kids from nursery :( £2600 a month is killing me Jan 29 17:43:15 :/ Jan 29 17:43:15 Damion2, £2600 a month to send your kids to a nursery? Jan 29 17:43:30 You could point a webcam at them, and have a IP controlled robot! Jan 29 17:43:38 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=42635 Jan 29 17:43:40 To collect them) Jan 29 17:43:42 Lantizia: the automatic update will no longer work Jan 29 17:43:48 anyone have any good solutions to that? Jan 29 17:43:51 Lantizia: yeah it's one of the cheap ones Jan 29 17:44:02 Damion2: in what country? Jan 29 17:44:03 tf Jan 29 17:44:09 villager - how come? Jan 29 17:44:12 we're slightly subsidised as elsest is >3 Jan 29 17:44:24 Lantizia: it means you'll probably have to reflash when the next firmware comes out, rather than being able to update over the air Jan 29 17:44:29 and both wife and I have childcare vouchers earning about 2k a year Jan 29 17:44:36 Matthew-: central London Jan 29 17:44:42 Damion2: which nuesery Jan 29 17:44:51 it's only 60-80% of that cost up-t'north Jan 29 17:44:56 not much cheaper Jan 29 17:44:59 villager - err it sat there for 5 minutes doing nothing, then all of a sudden decided to try and remove EVERY package Jan 29 17:44:59 which nursery ? Jan 29 17:45:06 Damion2: I live in ec1 Jan 29 17:45:12 just a normal chain, Kids Unlimited would be 3.1k Jan 29 17:45:13 and my sister lves in w1 with 2 kids Jan 29 17:45:19 mole station nursery Jan 29 17:45:19 and they're both in nursery Jan 29 17:45:28 we were in one in WC1 which was only 1100 a month for a 2yo Jan 29 17:45:37 Damion2: Kids Unlimited - is that like an All you can eat resturant? Jan 29 17:45:42 youngest is <18 months and is about 1500 Jan 29 17:45:50 if you know the game Jan 29 17:45:55 I call _bullshit_ Jan 29 17:45:58 ~ping Jan 29 17:45:59 ~pong Jan 29 17:46:04 Dump your 11 kids for the same price? Jan 29 17:46:05 :) Jan 29 17:46:11 sigh Jan 29 17:46:15 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4688826.stm Jan 29 17:46:17 there you go Jan 29 17:46:18 raise your own kids, kthx Jan 29 17:46:22 Matthew-: you think they're ripping us off cos we dont know better? Jan 29 17:46:30 The average charge for a nursery place for a young child is currently £197 a week, while in outer London the typical cost is £174 a week. Jan 29 17:46:31 Lantizia: Nokia has made a metapackage that depends on every package, including those language packs - trying to remove the language packs will also kill that metapackage, and since OTA upgrades require that package, it will make upgrades impossible Jan 29 17:46:40 Damion2: I think you're lying sir. Jan 29 17:46:56 average 853 a month ? Jan 29 17:47:05 villager - it's not the space it takes up that bothers me (have repartitioned so I've got gigs left)... but it's how messy dpkg -l looks with them in Jan 29 17:47:23 elsest is 1100 there is one which is 950 a month near us in Pimlico but it got VERY low often reports Jan 29 17:47:24 evening everyone Jan 29 17:47:24 Damion2: 2.8k for 2 kids Jan 29 17:47:38 Damion2: plus, when you put second kid in you get discount. Jan 29 17:47:44 Matthew-: I'm not making this up, Kids unlimited is more expensive we're in the middle and the cheaper one was crap Jan 29 17:48:01 Matthew-: ahh yeah this one didn't do that but we know some that do, but there ages away from the house Jan 29 17:48:06 I walk to this on teh way to work Jan 29 17:48:09 Lantizia: then maybe don't look at the dpkg -l output... Jan 29 17:48:29 we barely make 9am deadline for beakfast each morning, there is no way I'm taking them to one further Jan 29 17:48:43 ... Jan 29 17:49:04 Matthew-: a load of nurseries are in the 600-800 range which help your average, but they are attached to schools and shut at 15:30 which is **cking pointless Jan 29 17:49:06 Damion2: does your wife earn much more than 3k a month after tax? Jan 29 17:49:08 mgedmin: thansk works.. tho apt-get dont but thats not my biggest issue Jan 29 17:49:20 are you using fakeroot? Jan 29 17:49:40 tried to run apt-get insinde armel Jan 29 17:49:45 ah Jan 29 17:49:58 Matthew-: she earns about dead even on the cost per month that we pay, which is 2600 - 300odd for 12.5hrs goverment help on >3yo kid, and the childcare vounchers Jan 29 17:50:02 Lantizia: the way Nokia set it up, you can't remove them without breaking stuff, possibly voiding your warranty in the process... so you may as well leave it Jan 29 17:50:19 Damion2: well, then tell her to quit her job and spend some more time with kids. Jan 29 17:50:29 once eldest is in school we're a grand up, then the younger one gets cheaper and cheaper as they get older Jan 29 17:50:29 Matthew-++ Jan 29 17:50:36 please get a room for your offtopic chat Jan 29 17:50:40 * mgedmin doubts pure software hacks can void the warranty ... /me would expect a Nokia Care service center to blindly reflash the OS image if something stops working Jan 29 17:50:54 Matthew-: we only have to haemorrage money for another few years Jan 29 17:51:09 now if you write software to do something nasty to the hardware that e.g. burns out the CPU, that could end up badly Jan 29 17:51:13 Damion2: for _only_ a few years? Jan 29 17:51:14 mgedmin: depends on the hack; if it damages hardware, it can Jan 29 17:51:30 Damion2: while neglecting your children Jan 29 17:51:34 Matthew-: she'd break a continuation of employment and might fail to get work after, she loves her job and the kids get to interact with others rather than being like weirdo homeschoolers Jan 29 17:51:36 Damion2: Should've opened a fund for kids when you were younger. Like <------ Jan 29 17:51:47 I don't see now apt-get remove languagepack could damage hardware ; Jan 29 17:51:53 Matthew-: we came in to it with many thousands assuming we'd be down a tad Jan 29 17:52:04 mgedmin: it will also remove the metapackage, which in turn might remove the kernel Jan 29 17:52:06 doesn't stop me moaning about the ridiculousness of the costs in SW1 Jan 29 17:52:23 villager, I very much doubt that the kernel depends on the metapackage Jan 29 17:52:25 I'm entitled to moan :) Jan 29 17:52:42 Damion2: I disagree. Jan 29 17:52:49 Damion2: well my sister is in W1K, kids go to some nursery where they are dropped by drivers and she pays less than 2.8k a month Jan 29 17:52:55 luke-jr: they're not neglected, althoughI should head off now ! Jan 29 17:52:57 mgedmin: no, the other way around... the metapackage might remove the kernel... and then later someone goes and autoremoves stuff that nothing depends on, and... Jan 29 17:53:01 do things depend on maemo-pr? I forget... apt-cache rdependends maemo-pr Jan 29 17:53:16 2.8K a month is more than us Jan 29 17:53:19 mgedmin: metapackage depends on the kernel, I mean Jan 29 17:53:25 Damion2: daycare = neglect Jan 29 17:53:30 Damion2: that's what u said you pay Jan 29 17:53:33 luke-jr: no it's not! Jan 29 17:53:34 2600 Jan 29 17:53:51 Matthew-: we DID look around ! Jan 29 17:53:52 yeah, somewhere around the same Jan 29 17:53:58 2.8K euros? O_o Jan 29 17:54:00 it's not far from Millenium bridge Jan 29 17:54:01 I'm not taking them by tube up to W1K Jan 29 17:54:14 Damion2: oh, its near the city Jan 29 17:54:17 not in west end Jan 29 17:54:34 mgedmin: it might not be the kernel specifically, but there's probably something important that could get autoremoved whenever the metapackage that depends on the maemo components goes Jan 29 17:54:38 and the primary school they signed them up for has got 6 years waiting list. Jan 29 17:54:45 next to millenium bridge also. Jan 29 17:54:46 I've got a n810 caught in a reboot loop, I can't get into the bootloader interface either (holding switch and power). The thing doesn't seem to want to charge either, I'm suck with a bootloop that takes about 4 seconds in total, anyone got some pointer(s)? Jan 29 17:54:48 luke-jr: trust me when my wife was on maternity leave looking after them both, they were possibly slightly more neglected as they drove my wife mad jumping around and stuff (well the eldest) Jan 29 17:54:49 wazd: gbp Jan 29 17:55:21 Matthew-: we're probably going for free school so I'll be quids in within a few years Jan 29 17:55:25 Damion2: so discipline them properly Jan 29 17:55:32 Let's get back to maemo channel topic please. Kittens, anyone?) Jan 29 17:55:40 wazd: sorry Jan 29 17:55:50 wazd: kittens are the maemo channel topic? Jan 29 17:55:54 Matthew-: holy crap Jan 29 17:56:07 Luke-jr: it's not?) Jan 29 17:56:31 Damion2: well I dont have kids Jan 29 17:56:36 Matthew-: that's kinda insane Jan 29 17:56:46 luke-jr: let's agree to differ. I know some right chavvy lamers looking after their kids, I;m pretty sure we're better parents even if we're not around them 24x7 Jan 29 17:57:01 Damion2: and I plan to have good 5 figure fund for their education before i do have them. Jan 29 17:57:16 Damion2: at least they try? (wtf does 'right chavvy lamers' mean anyhow?) Jan 29 17:57:33 Damion2: or send them to private nursery Jan 29 17:57:36 blah Jan 29 17:57:39 matthew-: I think you're joking) Jan 29 17:57:39 don't send them that is Jan 29 17:57:40 I lived for 5 years in 150quid a month rent in Sutton, I built up about 150k :) Ate it all on mortgage and daycare Jan 29 17:57:50 wazd: No, im serious :) Jan 29 17:57:59 chav is something like white trash Jan 29 17:58:12 luke-jr: we could easily look after them I disagree it's better for them. We spend loads of loving hours withthem outside of the 9-5 of work Jan 29 17:58:29 a lamer is somebody who is lame, a chav as ShadowJK puts it Jan 29 17:58:31 Damion2: well I mean 200-400k for 2 kids Jan 29 17:58:48 Matthew-: ?! that's insane, that include private school? Jan 29 17:58:49 Matthew-: nursery? For 2.8k a month?) Jan 29 17:58:52 Damion2: yes Jan 29 17:58:55 wazd: yes Jan 29 17:59:04 I found I saved money once they were born as I actually went out for dinner much less :) Jan 29 17:59:07 anyone? Jan 29 17:59:12 Matthew-: 200-400k is 6 figures, not 5 Jan 29 17:59:18 Private schools suck IMO Jan 29 17:59:18 Damion2: true, but i get bonus every year. Jan 29 17:59:21 Are you mad? :D Jan 29 17:59:24 luke-jr: blah, 6 figure than, sorry :) Jan 29 17:59:40 smart parents leads to an almost 1:1 mapping to smart kids Jan 29 17:59:40 Damion2: No they dont. Well, i dont plan to bring them up in this fucked up country in the first place. Jan 29 17:59:51 wazd: oh, i dont have kids. Jan 29 18:00:03 smart parents often = money money = send kids to private school Jan 29 18:00:21 so they tend to get better grades, but it's not the schools doing it Jan 29 18:00:28 You can spend month on fucking Carribeans for 2.8k :D Jan 29 18:00:31 Damion2: well, maybe not in the UK Jan 29 18:00:43 wazd: u can spend a month on carribean islands for 1k Jan 29 18:00:44 :D Jan 29 18:02:14 Is that stuff worth 2.8k really? Jan 29 18:02:36 how badly is my n810 busted if I can't get into the bootloader screen? Jan 29 18:02:46 or the carge screen for that matter Jan 29 18:02:49 wazd: nope Jan 29 18:02:49 ;) Jan 29 18:03:00 or anything but a 4 second delay on booting, then black, then booting again Jan 29 18:03:31 hello Jan 29 18:03:36 hey guys, i'm facing a problem with scratchbox while building a new kernel for my n900, simply said i get "mmap: Operation not permitted" while trying to do "make rx51_defconfig" Jan 29 18:03:40 deja_vu: hello again Jan 29 18:03:49 :) Jan 29 18:03:52 Matthew-: what crazy monthly income should you have to afford this! Jan 29 18:04:03 so, no one? Jan 29 18:04:04 has anyone tried using 'debuild' in scratchbox? Jan 29 18:04:27 wazd: well, like 300k + PA Jan 29 18:04:27 hatseflats: sounds easily recoverable Jan 29 18:04:42 which for central london, 2 people professionals is not that much Jan 29 18:04:51 gonX, " echo 4096 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr" Jan 29 18:05:08 luke-jr: sounds good, but how or where can I find the info? maemo wiki isn't letting off much Jan 29 18:05:08 iirc Jan 29 18:05:15 hatseflats: just reflash Jan 29 18:05:26 hatseflats: the initfs in particular Jan 29 18:05:34 maybe kernel first Jan 29 18:05:34 adeus: that's what i heard too, doesn't fix it. might it have something to do with my own kernel? i use .33-rc4 Jan 29 18:05:41 * slonopotamus thinks whether it is smart to accept work offer with relocation to cyprus Jan 29 18:05:48 Matthew-: there's no fucking way to do this in Russia without criminal stuff Jan 29 18:05:52 debian/rules clean fails in debuild (tells me i'm not root), even though debuild runs fakeroot Jan 29 18:06:07 'fakeroot debian/rules clean' works Oo Jan 29 18:06:15 wazd: Are you russian? Jan 29 18:06:22 Matthew-: yep Jan 29 18:06:31 * luke-jr peers at deja_vu Jan 29 18:06:31 wazd: My dad worked with russians, and in 90s they paid in suitcases full of dollars Jan 29 18:06:33 gonX, is that kernel something really really new? Jan 29 18:06:41 hey luke :> Jan 29 18:06:52 deja_vu: where'd you go? Jan 29 18:06:59 adeus: the one i'm compiling, no. the one i'm using, yes Jan 29 18:07:03 Matthew-: oh those 90s) Jan 29 18:07:14 luke-jr: haven't been playing much tron recently Jan 29 18:07:19 wazd: you know Baltika? Jan 29 18:07:21 deja_vu: so? Jan 29 18:07:22 adeus: it's less than 2 weeks old Jan 29 18:07:27 the beer company Jan 29 18:07:34 Matthew-: yep Jan 29 18:07:41 the one you are using Jan 29 18:07:42 Matthew-: shitty beer) Jan 29 18:07:49 wazd: we used to print _all_ of their labels Jan 29 18:07:50 maybe you should ask the kernel team Jan 29 18:08:02 luke-jr: did you miss me? :P Jan 29 18:08:40 adeus: i have a feeling it's qemu doing it though. i have 2.6.32 laying around, so i'll try booting to that to take a look Jan 29 18:08:42 brb Jan 29 18:09:17 deja_vu: yes Jan 29 18:09:35 Matthew-: ah Jan 29 18:09:35 Matthew-: it's really one of the cheapest brands in here Jan 29 18:10:16 wazd: but they produce _a lot_ of beer Jan 29 18:10:22 = a lot of bottles = a lot of labels Jan 29 18:10:24 ;] Jan 29 18:10:35 Matthew-: but again, my sister currently builds medical facilities all over the russia Jan 29 18:10:40 yh, good old back in the day. Jan 29 18:11:12 Matthew-: she hardly makes more than $50k a year Jan 29 18:11:49 Matthew-: and she does hell of a job Jan 29 18:11:52 wazd: adjust for taxes Jan 29 18:12:16 wazd: 13% in .RU, >=35% everywhere else Jan 29 18:12:18 wazd: well i do nothing. Jan 29 18:12:31 and i get hella a lot for what i do Jan 29 18:12:32 Rst38h: anyway Jan 29 18:12:44 Rst38h: 150k and 50k Jan 29 18:12:58 heh i just made my n900 as security cam Jan 29 18:12:59 :) Jan 29 18:13:04 wazd: Yea, it does not reach 150k by any measure of course Jan 29 18:13:12 wazd: dont compare russia and central london Jan 29 18:13:40 ifreq: How? Jan 29 18:13:50 ifreq: ur getting rl stream ?:D Jan 29 18:13:50 Matthew-: like I said, there's no way to make that much money in Russia without crime Jan 29 18:14:01 wazd: ofc there is :D Jan 29 18:14:14 Matthew-: with crime - easy) Jan 29 18:14:21 Matthew-: nope, one daemon Jan 29 18:14:21 :) Jan 29 18:14:28 wazd: But it still comes down to relatively healthy 67k with taxes considered Jan 29 18:14:30 doing some crosscompiling on stuff ive interested Jan 29 18:14:39 adeus: older kernel worked Jan 29 18:15:01 Rst38h: what taxes?)) Jan 29 18:15:09 Rst38h: from bribes? ) Jan 29 18:15:30 wazd: No, I meant that pretty lawful 50k Jan 29 18:15:55 $150k is problematic to make honestly anywhere in the world, I am afraid Jan 29 18:15:58 Ah Jan 29 18:16:07 wazd: Goldman Sachs in Moscow Jan 29 18:16:29 matthew-: advocates?) Jan 29 18:16:45 RST38h: ok 150k a year in central london is easy Jan 29 18:16:47 wazd: finance Jan 29 18:16:58 wazd: my friend was head of compliants for reuters in moscow Jan 29 18:16:59 Matthew: What would be the tax on that? Jan 29 18:17:03 and he was getting over 200k Jan 29 18:17:04 Matthew-: aaaaw, analysis ) Jan 29 18:17:05 RST38h: 50% Jan 29 18:17:14 wazd: no, investments Jan 29 18:17:17 Matthew: Then you are in effect getting only 75k :) Jan 29 18:17:27 RST38h: well im getting more than that :D Jan 29 18:17:35 Matthew: ;) Jan 29 18:17:40 Matthew-: yeah, these guys makes a lot for shit talking ) Jan 29 18:17:40 RST38h: average compensation per employee this year was 498k Jan 29 18:17:43 per employee Jan 29 18:17:50 wazd: thats what I said Jan 29 18:17:58 Matthew: Finance? Jan 29 18:18:01 RST38h: yep Jan 29 18:18:06 I would argue that GS is not exactly high on the "lawful" list. Jan 29 18:18:21 Matthew: Paying in the same product they are making? ;) Jan 29 18:19:10 derf, ehehehe Jan 29 18:19:10 I prefer to get money for something serious Jan 29 18:19:19 Not talking) Jan 29 18:19:37 RST38h: yeah, cash :-) Jan 29 18:19:43 wazd: like... mergers and takeovers? ;) Jan 29 18:21:35 luke-jr: the device won't register as attached to my usb bus Jan 29 18:22:00 the adapter is disconnected, the battery of the n810 is as empty as it can be (I can't charge it because of the reboot loop) Jan 29 18:22:07 what now? Jan 29 18:23:09 wazd: Hmm, in my 14 peoples team Jan 29 18:23:19 we've got average £1m Jan 29 18:23:48 * RST38h killed 14 copies of Modest today, all lingering in memory Jan 29 18:23:52 hatseflats: AC power Jan 29 18:23:53 WTF? Jan 29 18:24:14 RST38h: threads? Jan 29 18:24:40 Matthew-: what are you doing?) Jan 29 18:24:44 luke-jr: like hook up the adapter? or attach wires to the battery connectors and find a AC source? Jan 29 18:24:58 wazd: i manage semiconductors/technology Jan 29 18:25:11 related investments Jan 29 18:25:13 Stskeeps: look like proceses to me Jan 29 18:25:16 Matthew-: cool Jan 29 18:29:25 luke-jr: could you please explain more clearly? Jan 29 18:29:54 wazd: it is. Jan 29 18:32:47 hatseflats: do you have any equipment for electric work? Jan 29 18:33:21 ShadowJK: some, but It'd rather not start soldering wires to the poles Jan 29 18:33:36 basics like voltmeters, gluegun etc Jan 29 18:34:11 voltage reading on battery and ac adapter would be interesting Jan 29 18:34:34 oyuter contacts on battery, the middle one is just some lame signaling Jan 29 18:34:45 gonX, you should report the issue Jan 29 18:35:12 reading 2.67 volts Jan 29 18:35:14 In general, the n8x0 can't run straight on power through charge port Jan 29 18:35:31 no, it can't Jan 29 18:35:34 that's my basic problem Jan 29 18:35:51 or over usb, but that's another rant Jan 29 18:36:28 I don't know about Nokia, but if I designed a charger I would feel very uneasy about ctrying to charge a battery from that low Jan 29 18:37:13 suppose that's my fault for trying to start the n810 that often, further draining the battery Jan 29 18:37:14 n8x0 has a hardware limit of 2.8V before it boots... and sd/flash probably stops working before that :/ Jan 29 18:38:03 regardless, I don't have an obvious way of charging the battery, the n810 won't boot off the AC adapter that came with it, and power can't be supplied over USB either Jan 29 18:38:35 so unless I hook up some similar battery by hacking the connectors on the board or whatnot it's a catch22 Jan 29 18:38:38 or something like that Jan 29 18:38:39 and the ac adapter's output is not suitable for supplying to N810 battery bay either Jan 29 18:38:48 yep, it is Jan 29 18:39:09 so, what you're saying is, I'm fucked and there's nothing I can really do at all Jan 29 18:39:32 hatseflats: charge your battery with another nokia device Jan 29 18:39:59 Stskeeps: don't have any other nokia device that fits this battery Jan 29 18:40:03 well... there's the 10 dollar battery lottery on ebay, or 20-ish for something less random :) Jan 29 18:40:11 hatseflats: go to a nokia store and ask if you can get it charged Jan 29 18:40:18 or buy a fresh one Jan 29 18:40:24 grmbl Jan 29 18:40:25 oh well Jan 29 18:40:36 hatseflats, have you tried plugging the charger in and leaving it overnight? Jan 29 18:40:45 or does it start the reboot loop when you do that? Jan 29 18:40:53 mgedmin: starts the loop Jan 29 18:41:15 ouch Jan 29 18:41:19 I don't get why nokia wouldn't build in a low-level charging routine in ther e anyway Jan 29 18:41:29 hatseflats: there was a bug in th regard, so Jan 29 18:41:30 I got the impression there is one Jan 29 18:41:30 or why in the name of reason they need software to charge Jan 29 18:41:45 if the software isn't running, the charging works, but very very slowly and carefully Jan 29 18:41:51 sw is needed to enable high-performance charging Jan 29 18:42:01 this is all hearsay Jan 29 18:42:11 hmmm Jan 29 18:42:16 either from this channel or from what people said on the mailing list Jan 29 18:42:21 li-ion degrades quicköy when it sits at 2.6V a day or two at that, and the N810 wouldn't be able to charge it anyway, even if you had initially managed to charge it elsewhere :/ Jan 29 18:42:26 so if I can get it to stop looping and just leave it for a night or something like that, it should be okay? Jan 29 18:42:30 getting somebody from Nokia to reply with advice might be good Jan 29 18:42:50 I don't feel qualified to say whether that would be ok or not Jan 29 18:43:01 okay Jan 29 18:43:01 I wouldn't want to leave a reboot loop overnight Jan 29 18:43:06 rebooting eats a lot of battery power Jan 29 18:43:08 no, definitively not Jan 29 18:43:18 probably more than the charger supplies during that time period Jan 29 18:43:18 nokia care will pop in a new battery and charge you retail price plus, if it works with that.. Jan 29 18:43:27 but there where points where it stopped looping, I figured itwas because it had drained all it could form the battery Jan 29 18:43:30 especially if the charging sw is not up yet Jan 29 18:43:49 a new battery sounds like a good idea Jan 29 18:43:53 or talking to nokia care Jan 29 18:43:57 okay Jan 29 18:44:09 sounds good. Actually, it doesn't, but I ain't got no other choices :) Jan 29 18:44:13 thanks guys Jan 29 18:44:13 there are standalone nokia battery chargers, aren't there? Jan 29 18:44:19 yes there are Jan 29 18:44:31 with the repairtechs Jan 29 18:44:54 same as fake batteries that hook up to ac power directly for testing purposes Jan 29 18:45:40 the ac adapter output isnt suitable for connecting direct to n810 battery contacts... and not suitable to connect straight to battery either... Jan 29 18:45:59 about to get busy at work, back in 90 minutes or so Jan 29 18:46:05 ShadowJK: a 'fake' battery, that just drains directly from AC and emulates battery behaviour Jan 29 18:46:30 for testing purposes, they use it for repair / warrenty techs Jan 29 19:00:10 hmm Jan 29 19:00:12 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=36662&page=2 Jan 29 19:10:48 i am multitasking all my stuff on n900. pc is almodt a dinosaaur now Jan 29 19:13:00 rofl Jan 29 19:15:35 <|R> is anyone able to sync their tabs in weave / fennec ? Jan 29 19:15:58 <|R> bookmarks work, history too, but tabs say "remote tabs are being synced..." and it's been 10 minutes Jan 29 19:17:06 where is the auto-optifier script ? (what is it called) ? Jan 29 19:29:41 maemo-optify Jan 29 19:31:42 * dottedmag suspects it's a FAQ, but anyway - is it possible to sync N900 with something on Linux desktop without using third-party server? Jan 29 19:36:08 rsync? Jan 29 19:36:25 Ugh. Sync addressbook, I meant. Jan 29 19:36:34 whoooooo, finally my n900 sits ready for pickup at the retailer Jan 29 19:36:41 With all funny 3-way-merges etc. Jan 29 19:36:46 Shapeshifter: EEEENVY! Jan 29 19:37:00 sure, just run syncevolution 1.0 beta (or opensync, if you can make it work) on the desktop Jan 29 19:37:01 zash: well, everyone else already has one, no? Jan 29 19:37:20 Shapeshifter: not me :( ... yet Jan 29 19:37:26 zash: which country? Jan 29 19:37:31 sweden Jan 29 19:37:51 zash: mhh, no clue about sweeden. the n900 arrived here in switzerland only 3 days ago, though. Jan 29 19:39:01 can I paste text into an arbitrary text field? I copied my WPA key from the X Terminal, but I'm too stupid to understand how I can paste it into the WPA password field in the WLAN connection wizard Jan 29 19:39:26 villager: so, n900 just provides a syncml client? Jan 29 19:39:32 dottedmag: try ctrl+v ? Jan 29 19:39:32 pajp: ctrl-v? Jan 29 19:39:41 uh, too obvious. :-) Jan 29 19:39:45 * pajp tries Jan 29 19:40:33 dottedmag: nokia provides a built-in funambol-based syncml thing in the n900 that works over bluetooth/usb but not the internet, syncevolution 1.0 beta on the desktop should be able to connect to it without installing anything on the n900, I think, haven't tried Jan 29 19:41:04 villager: cool, thanks. will try. Jan 29 19:41:09 dottedmag: if you want to do syncml over tcp/ip then you've got to also install syncevolution on the n900 Jan 29 19:41:12 SpeedEvil: thanks! (and zash too I assumed was answering me) Jan 29 19:41:35 I'm still confused about the topology of SyncML stuff. Clients? Servers? p2p synchronization? Jan 29 19:41:37 How do I put screenshot on downloads.maemo.org Jan 29 19:42:45 random: gnuplot plot [0:1] x,10 works, plot 10,[0:1] x doesnot... Jan 29 19:42:47 Thoughts? Jan 29 19:47:45 hello! How can I upload packages to diablo-extras? Jan 29 19:47:49 dottedmag: I do suspect that nokia's syncml can act as both a client and server... a client if the pc tells it to sync, and a server if you go into the n900 menus and tell it to fetch contacts from your old phone Jan 29 19:48:31 dottedmag: in syncml, the client is the "dumb" part, the server is the one doing all the merging Jan 29 19:48:48 villager: well, that makes sense Jan 29 19:49:18 villager: and is syncevolution a client or server? Jan 29 19:49:32 dottedmag: 0.9 is only a client, 1.0 adds server capabilities Jan 29 19:51:17 Well, pieces of puzzle start falling in place. And SyncML client is not necessarily the component that initiates the connection, right? Jan 29 19:51:45 So server running on desktop may start sync with client running on phone. Jan 29 19:52:21 I don't think so, no, but I'm not an expert here Jan 29 19:53:27 if you connect to the phone over bluetooth, then the pc can presumably send a command that asks the phone to start syncing with the pc as a client Jan 29 19:53:51 the phone is the client, that is Jan 29 19:54:13 well, that's exactly what I meant. Jan 29 19:55:57 hi Jan 29 19:57:55 I guess some of you have noticed that sb occasionally loses it's network connection anyone figured out why that is (and possibly how to fix it) ?? Jan 29 20:07:04 evening RevdKathy Jan 29 20:07:05 jebba, thanks for reply (re optify) Jan 29 20:07:15 Evening Stskeeps, evening all Jan 29 20:09:37 Talkative in here tonight! Jan 29 20:10:08 friday evening, people's out drinking or on talk.maemo.org complaining about no harmattan on n900 rumours Jan 29 20:10:12 :P Jan 29 20:10:26 X-Fade: how is optification heuristics specified? Jan 29 20:11:36 Stskeeps, isnt the idea that with the n900, you could do both at the same time? Jan 29 20:11:59 mikhas: true, true Jan 29 20:12:13 Ehehe Jan 29 20:12:19 given enough RAM Jan 29 20:12:29 two widget libs in RAM at once = badness. Jan 29 20:14:57 the approach of maemo is audacious in all it strives to support Jan 29 20:33:06 Hi shinkamui Jan 29 20:40:09 got to love firestorms!! Jan 29 20:45:29 does the auto-build system allow me to send arbitrary stuff to build upto it ? without creating a project, to test the environment works as expected ? Jan 29 20:47:45 how do you put screenshots on downloads.maemo.org? Jan 29 20:49:18 AndrewFBlack: log in, get the midgardmenu stuff and press Page-> edit Jan 29 20:49:32 on your package download site Jan 29 20:49:39 odin_: i think anything you submit to it that builds gets dropped into extras-devel. What exactly are you wanting? Perhaps you could build it on another box. Jan 29 20:49:40 frals thanks Jan 29 20:49:45 np Jan 29 20:50:22 it says locked but I would assume thats because its a new package ? Jan 29 20:52:21 OMG I'M SOOOO HAPPY I JUST GOT MY N900!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jan 29 20:52:23 * b-man17 unboxes it Jan 29 20:52:30 http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/maemo-org/ thats the page you want to edit I assume AndrewFBlack Jan 29 20:52:50 frals, yeah Jan 29 20:52:56 grats b-man17 Jan 29 20:53:15 does it say locked when you press edit or when you try to submit the screenshot? because i can press edit just fine on it at least Jan 29 20:53:40 hey frals Jan 29 20:53:51 wow, it's quite small! xD Jan 29 20:53:56 when fmms is going to testing?:) Jan 29 20:54:22 Matthew-: uh, its gonna be a while before that ;) Jan 29 20:54:38 lol Jan 29 20:55:01 frals: would be funny if they implement it with next upgrade Jan 29 20:55:21 seeing as they have said they have no such plans, i'd find it highly unlikely ;) Jan 29 20:55:40 Oh did they Jan 29 20:57:18 Matthew-: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=486420&postcount=367 Jan 29 20:57:54 frals: Oh you little star :* Jan 29 20:58:35 Anyone notice iphone users getting jealous of the n900? Jan 29 20:58:48 dmj7261: yeah Jan 29 20:58:58 frals: Hmmmm they want to kill you Jan 29 20:59:02 and obduct you Jan 29 20:59:43 frals: isnt the Maemo HQ in Espoo ? :> Jan 29 20:59:56 frals when I press edit Jan 29 21:00:07 I wouldn't know, either way I'm going to Helsinki :P Jan 29 21:00:14 frals: Oh are you? Jan 29 21:00:16 AndrewFBlack: weird Jan 29 21:00:39 frals, This object was locked by Nick Leppänen Larsson. Lock will expire on 01/29/10 23:49:03. is what it says Jan 29 21:00:46 oh lol Jan 29 21:00:48 frals: ifreq is from helsinki! :-) Jan 29 21:00:54 thats me, guess it locked it when i pressed edit :P Jan 29 21:01:05 I've been noticing that iphone users generally get jealous when they see the n900. Jan 29 21:01:16 frals, lol ok Jan 29 21:01:19 wonder how I release that lock... :P Jan 29 21:01:41 funny how I managed to lock your page, I jsut picked the first one I saw on downloads :P Jan 29 21:01:54 I might just have to wait lol Jan 29 21:02:07 so anyone can edit a page? Jan 29 21:02:48 seems like it Jan 29 21:03:06 * frals stays away from them pages from now on lol Jan 29 21:04:58 my geforce gtx 260 gpu core is at 32 deg celsius. do we have a temp sensor on n900? Jan 29 21:05:51 why cant I apt-get install from a root shell? it just says "Abort." and exits Jan 29 21:06:03 pupnik, yes. Jan 29 21:10:41 zaheerm: ping Jan 29 21:11:26 do you have to open fmms to download mms? Jan 29 21:11:52 AndrewFBlack: unless the correct connection was opened when it arrived, yes Jan 29 21:13:56 re Jan 29 21:14:20 guys any ideas why My google talk is not working Jan 29 21:14:38 ? Jan 29 21:14:47 Nokia N900\ Jan 29 21:16:05 It goes with error in network Jan 29 21:16:15 is there any way to get the application manager to respect some sort of preference file? /etc/apt/preferences doesn't seem to work, and I'd like to pin a package. Jan 29 21:17:08 hmmm what repo is the gadget that gives you snap to grid in? Jan 29 21:19:50 looks like I goig to have to redue my numbers in contacts they all have - in them and fmms doesn´t like it Jan 29 21:22:11 y'all should use synergy when setting n900 on the desk. it's real fun. Jan 29 21:23:06 soo Jan 29 21:23:19 any info on the GTALK and OVI error message? Jan 29 21:23:24 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=489755#post489755 Jan 29 21:23:28 http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/STUN Jan 29 21:23:36 So far these two didin't helped :-( Jan 29 21:27:18 i don't use gtalk Jan 29 21:27:29 what's cool about it AOK? Jan 29 21:29:19 Well just wanted to have all coversations optiond on. Additionally I hope they will embede FB Chat pupnik Jan 29 21:29:19 ;-) Jan 29 21:30:20 any one have instructions on putting debian on the n900? Jan 29 21:30:51 Don't put debian on floppies on the n900 - it might squash it. CDs and DVDs are fine. Jan 29 21:31:48 SpeedEvil: what, can't it handle 7k floppies beeing stacked on it? Jan 29 21:32:30 hey we have a free phone app yet? Jan 29 21:33:18 Is there someone in the room who knows about packaging? I'm trying to port a Debian package Jan 29 21:34:00 It contains a patch as well. I was wondering if that patch is supposed to be auto-applied by dpkg-buildpkg or if I should do it manually. In the latter case, will it be auto-patched in the autobuilder? Jan 29 21:39:58 cool... Just found Vagalume for streaming from last.fm/Libre.fm Nice Jan 29 21:40:27 i wish there was a last.fm scrobbling plugin for media player Jan 29 21:41:32 last.fm has a huge selection. how is the price? Jan 29 21:42:04 thresh: I saw wsome plugins dfor media player I think int eh repos Jan 29 21:42:21 is it me who stoned Jan 29 21:42:55 * SpeedEvil passes thresh a pile of cookies, and observes the results. Jan 29 21:43:01 om nom nom Jan 29 21:43:10 anyway, i think those are for canola Jan 29 21:49:17 re Jan 29 21:50:26 * Stskeeps watches the m6 on n900 thread Jan 29 21:52:04 Stskeeps, having fun? :P Jan 29 21:52:45 GeneralAntilles: my head hurts from banging it so much against the wall Jan 29 21:52:45 :P Jan 29 21:52:59 Stskeeps, hehe. Jan 29 21:53:38 hi, is there any document explaining how to optify a python application? Jan 29 21:54:04 GeneralAntilles: did i post in this thread anywhere? Jan 29 21:54:11 Stskeeps, no idea. Jan 29 21:54:19 * Stskeeps looks for his distmaster cap Jan 29 21:54:38 Stskeeps: btw, i've gotten my n900 now :) Jan 29 21:54:45 b-man17: may god have mercy on us all Jan 29 21:54:51 lol Jan 29 21:56:43 Stskeeps, I still want to hack together a plugin that lets Quim put the appropriate cap on his avatar when posting. Jan 29 21:56:57 the best part is that i haven't seen any of the issues that people have been complaining about on tmo xD Jan 29 21:57:03 just tried 'hermes' for n900 Jan 29 21:57:04 quite nice Jan 29 21:57:15 updated contacts with information from facebook Jan 29 21:57:22 including pictures and birthdays Jan 29 21:57:40 it is indeed Jan 29 22:03:16 Cooold Jan 29 22:03:50 would be better in 12 hours Jan 29 22:04:36 In heaven?) Jan 29 22:04:47 if you all moscow a heaven, yes :P Jan 29 22:05:20 i don't know what i meant by the last phrase Jan 29 22:05:25 probably 'call' Jan 29 22:06:19 Im at the country now, so I'll soon be seing jesus I guess) Jan 29 22:09:06 GeneralAntilles: do you remember the URL for that slide with the HW platform intended for M6? Jan 29 22:09:12 or a picture or something Jan 29 22:09:47 Stskeeps, Flickr, maybe? Dunno. Jan 29 22:09:55 Check the Summit tags on Flickr, probably. Jan 29 22:11:02 Will there be any videos from the summit?) Jan 29 22:11:12 wazd, I think they're up. Jan 29 22:11:43 GeneralAntilles: I saw only music one and t-shirt giveaway Jan 29 22:16:12 GeneralAntilles: btw, saw how application downloader looks now - it needs some more work to look perfect) But I hope it works as expected) Jan 29 22:19:38 ShadowJK: ahoy! what were those battery readings again? I've got 3.7V on the battery in my N800. you may not be here, but I thought I'd try. :) Jan 29 22:20:30 K, sleeping now, cya all Jan 29 22:23:25 I'm considering trying to get my comic widget to extras-devel. Jan 29 22:24:05 All that packaging this and that seems like hard work though. Jan 29 22:24:38 amen Jan 29 22:24:45 like getting out of bed- not worth it! Jan 29 22:24:52 aaahaha :D Jan 29 22:24:54 indeed. Jan 29 22:24:57 :D Jan 29 22:25:05 sorry, couldn't help it Jan 29 22:25:05 I guess it's not that hard if you know how to do it. Jan 29 22:25:28 and there are guides enough to smooth it along Jan 29 22:26:05 RevAaron, yep, but I still feel confused. Perhaps I should read through them again. Jan 29 22:26:28 or, perhaps someone would give you a hand! Jan 29 22:26:57 i'd guess that the bigger issue is knowing it works for sure when installed somewhere, that the deps, libraries, and paths are all packaged properly Jan 29 22:27:24 RevAaron, yes, well I have my own device to test it on. And a few friends :) Jan 29 22:27:37 yeah, devices other than your own Jan 29 22:27:37 Yay! just got dilbert workin! Jan 29 22:27:41 woot! Jan 29 22:28:02 * RevAaron is crossing his fingers- i actually got the USB loader to come up on my N800 Jan 29 22:28:26 i was just in here a day or two ago asking for ideas on how to ressurect this lil guy. previously, i wasn't able to boot it or even get to the USB bootloader Jan 29 22:29:02 :) Jan 29 22:29:06 w/ii greyer Jan 29 22:29:11 oops ;D Jan 29 22:31:32 jebba, I am wanting a test area, to test out the submissions process of the maemo autobuilder... of course I can build what I have in scratchbox, but I wish to download what the autobuilder created and test it BEFORE it becomes publicly available (in fact I just want to arbitrarily throw something at it and it store it against my user account for manual web download) Jan 29 22:33:28 wtf, suddenly my n800 works again Jan 29 22:33:29 WOOT Jan 29 22:33:32 are there any issue with maemo5 packages tracking etch packages ? I am trying to keep the maintenance work down, i.e. where there should not be any problem track official debian releases so fixing and updates become a breeze Jan 29 22:33:46 RevAaron, :D Jan 29 22:34:10 odin_: i'm rebuilding etch for maemo 5 right now. Jan 29 22:35:06 thats not exactly that useful, you mean you are porting it ? just building it is not that useful Jan 29 22:35:44 mece: for real! I've had a problem with it for a year and a half, where it stops being able to boot, even when it seems to have a good charge; just fails and turns off or reboots. haven't been able to reflash ir or anything. Jan 29 22:35:57 how old is the battery? Jan 29 22:35:58 well, its over 10,000 packages. But i figure just having some of them there will help people get up and rolling quickly and not have to build missing deps and such. Plus there's a metric ton of cool debian command line apps in there as well. Jan 29 22:36:21 .[ Jan 29 22:36:32 ->rev Jan 29 22:36:56 GeneralAntilles: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=501743&postcount=355 Jan 29 22:36:56 SpeedEvil: well, now it's a year and a half of so. but the problem started happening 6 months after I got it. I got it early in their release, part of a developer program. Jan 29 22:41:55 jebba what would really be more useful, is lenny for scratchbox :) Jan 29 22:42:29 then at least lenny stuff can be built out-of-the-box Jan 29 22:43:07 hmm.. was there a way to prevent tracker from indexing a directory? Jan 29 22:43:27 check ~/.trackerd.conf or something Jan 29 22:44:37 ok its /home/user/.config/tracker/tracker.cfg Jan 29 22:44:49 odin_: usually for lenny just debhelper to 5 and debian compat to 5. Jan 29 22:44:53 and it seems to build ;) Jan 29 22:45:14 odin_, thanks Jan 29 22:45:16 nah missing packages in the BuildDepends Jan 29 22:47:54 is it just my photos application that doesn't understand gifs? Jan 29 22:49:06 mece, what is your photo app called? and why do you say it doesn't understand GIFs ? Jan 29 22:50:49 GIFs have a lot of issues, they keep to themselves. It can really take a lot of warming them up before they will talk. I suggest trying to really /listen/. Jan 29 22:51:12 RevAaron, it doesn't sound too bad.. Jan 29 22:51:28 pointing to earlier issues! Jan 29 22:51:28 does it boot just on battery? Jan 29 22:51:40 odin_: there's lots of missing build depends (in both), because hundreds (thousands) of base libraries haven't been built (or at least aren't in extras-devel yet). Jan 29 22:52:03 oh you said it works already :) Jan 29 22:52:10 jebba, can the community release packages for building on the SDK ? Jan 29 22:52:59 jebba, sorry to be clear.... the target is the SDK (no armel for the handset, NOR x86 for the scratchbox devel enviroment), I mean the sdk/tools Jan 29 22:53:39 jebba: you're pushing everything in edge into extras-devel? Jan 29 22:54:07 s/dg/tc/ Jan 29 22:54:08 SpeedEvil meant: jebba: you're pushing everything in etce into extras-devel? Jan 29 22:54:09 SpeedEvil: i haven't pushed anything yet, but i could (etch). Of the packages which are known to compile for maemo5 Jan 29 22:54:26 ShadowJK: nope, this time it worked- i'm not sure why. i attempted to boot by itself, didn't work, took the batt out, tested at 3.7V, got out a usb cable and just tried it again. this time i got the usb logo in the corner- i wasn't able to get to that last tiem i tried it, a month ago. and not for low battery- it just hung on that initial screen, never got the usb thing and it took a long time before powering off. :D Jan 29 22:54:50 hm, did you try taking out the battery before? Jan 29 22:55:05 ShadowJK: yes, many times Jan 29 22:55:14 weird :) Jan 29 22:55:31 ShadowJK: when this problem started happening that'd what i'd have to do to get it to boot. see, it was just suddenly turn off. and when i'd boot it again, it wouldn't actually boot up. Jan 29 22:56:07 ShadowJK: at first, i thought it was something based on movement- that snapping closed the kickstand was wiggling something free. but i think that just happened to be the coincidental timing on the first time it happened. Jan 29 22:56:08 :/ Jan 29 22:56:55 ShadowJK: anyway, i'm not crossing my fingers that it'll keep working, but it does something for now. if it was a software thing, at least i was able to get the most recent version on. the flasher downloaded a DIABLO release- should I still be worried about the power supply amperage/voltage? Jan 29 22:57:25 Hello, is it possible to use IM services on the N900 other than the ones preinstalled? like Yahoo IM, Windows Live, ICQ? If yes, which would be the app that does that? Jan 29 22:57:29 hi, on the N900, is there a conf file storing the Internet radio stations for mediaplayer? Jan 29 22:57:42 When/if the battery degrades sufficiently, the stronger chargers become unable to charge Jan 29 22:57:45 bennypr0fane: pidgin works Jan 29 22:57:49 But not every battery degrades to that point Jan 29 22:58:18 ShadowJK: but that's just it- it wasn't a charging thing. it would suddenly shut off, and i could get it back up after trying to reboot and popping the battery out a few times. and then it would work for 2 more hours. Jan 29 22:58:41 ShadowJK: same problem when on AC Jan 29 22:58:43 * RevAaron shrugs Jan 29 22:58:59 Sounds unrelated to power then :) Jan 29 22:59:03 yeah Jan 29 23:00:27 bennypr0fane: you can use pidgin, or install telepathy-haze to make the built-in client use pidgin's protocol implementations Jan 29 23:00:43 if you want otr, use pidgin (pidgin-otr is in extras-devel) Jan 29 23:01:00 if you don't want otr, i'd recommend sticking with the built-in client and just adding more protocol plugins Jan 29 23:01:41 * wiretapped wants otr in the built-in client :( Jan 29 23:01:42 I'm trying to install pc-connectivity on a Debian Sid box, using the sources.list line: "deb http://pc-connectivity.garage.maemo.org/repository/ intrepid main" as described in the installation guide. Not found. Ideas? Jan 29 23:03:45 these are the instructions, btw: http://pc-connectivity.garage.maemo.org/2nd_edition/node3.html#SECTION00032000000000000000 Jan 29 23:09:14 * sp3000 prods bugs.maemo Jan 29 23:09:27 whaddayaknow, that helped ;) Jan 29 23:15:13 ah damn dh_installexamples does not support the concept of a --prefix Jan 29 23:22:57 hmm, pc-connectivity not listed as a product on bugs.maemo.org Jan 29 23:23:29 I'm afraidf i don't even know what otr is. you mean IM encryption? Jan 29 23:24:03 it's a johnx Jan 29 23:24:03 no wonder people are still installing files into rootfs, as dh_installexamples dh_installman dh_installinfo dh_installdocs none support --prefix concept to move them Jan 29 23:24:07 bennypr0fane, introduction here http://pc-connectivity.garage.maemo.org/2nd_edition/node2.html Jan 29 23:24:57 maybe maemo-optify can bodge around that (but better to get debhelper support for --prefix, or just modify the SDK one) Jan 29 23:25:23 wiretapped do the plugins for the built-in IM client have other names or are they just called "plugins for IM"? Jan 29 23:27:21 odin_: feel free to add --prefix patches to debhelper7 Jan 29 23:27:29 ty odin_ Jan 29 23:27:35 vinsci2 introduction to maemo pc connectivity? is that related to IM? Jan 29 23:27:40 bennypr0fane: http://maemo.org/packages/view/telepathy-haze/ Jan 29 23:28:02 so, it looks like you need to get haze from extras-testing... i think there is some disclaimer I'm supposed to give you along with this information Jan 29 23:28:22 in a nutshell: extras-testing is a testbed for extras, use at your own risk. Jan 29 23:28:28 alias pupnikconfuser='dh_' Jan 29 23:28:47 wiretapped got it, thanks Jan 29 23:29:01 there are some telepathy-something packages in extras also which do individual protocols, but haze will do lots Jan 29 23:30:57 bennypr0fane, oops - I see your earlier question now. Thought you were replying to mine... Jan 29 23:31:09 pupnik, what was the thank you for ? (scratching me head over how I helped you) Jan 29 23:31:32 vinsci2: sorry, not a clue.... Jan 29 23:31:34 t-tan, the SDK uses debhelper 5.0.42-0osso1 (so patches for 7 are not that useful to community now) Jan 29 23:31:48 odin_: if you need lenny tools, try SDK+ (but It's not on autobuilder) Jan 29 23:32:17 odin_: no, look at by backport called debhelper7 - you can use it within SDK+autobuilder Jan 29 23:32:17 wiretapped: thanks for the help, that's awesome! Jan 29 23:32:47 t-tan: can it do -prefixing for configure and opt? Jan 29 23:33:31 apt-cache showpkg debhelper7 : W: Unable to locate package debhelper7 Jan 29 23:33:48 what is with this backporting, thats a serious waste of community time and effort Jan 29 23:34:14 odin_: it's in extras-devel, it's a straight version 7 port - no maemo specifiy extras yet Jan 29 23:34:21 SDK should be upto lenny level (with etch compatibility) Jan 29 23:34:27 lololol Jan 29 23:34:43 maie it! Jan 29 23:35:08 odin_: yes, there are lots of design flaws in the N900 and SDK/autobuilder... Jan 29 23:36:34 odin_: but Nokia wants us to buy the N910 with harmattan, so they tried their best not to make the N900 to good :) Jan 29 23:36:49 maybe that is a project for a few months time.. looking at how to build the SDK and working out how Nokia can release etch/lenny and sarge based versions, lag in the SDK means lag in maintenance and lots of bug fix and effort duplication Jan 29 23:37:45 ah, that touches on my next question, odin_ Jan 29 23:37:52 guys, i have another question: is it possible to perform a global search on n900? I mean searching for a given string of characters in files, file names, e-mails, text msgs etc. across the whole device, like e.g. google desktop does Jan 29 23:37:54 scratchbox 1.x is a dead project - do not waste time with it Jan 29 23:37:57 how to install the SDK on Debian Sid? :-) Jan 29 23:38:03 we will have to see how the next model looks but I'm all for getting multiple phone formats out there at once, its unlikely an iPhone equivalent would appeal to me (i.e. no keyboard, no usb host) Jan 29 23:38:46 odin_: agreed USB host is a must Jan 29 23:39:09 does anyone have the solution for sound on Maemo 5 SDK scratchbox and ubuntu Karmic Koala? Jan 29 23:40:05 BTW, there is #maemo-devel for SDK related chats... Jan 29 23:40:12 ok Jan 29 23:40:14 yes understood on scratchbox 1.x being dead Jan 29 23:40:37 I think 2 USB ports one mini and one micro, (i.e. keep the N900 as-is, charger port and usb2go) with another port for hostmode Jan 29 23:41:14 thanks, t-tan Jan 29 23:41:31 I did not know that, I shall monitor #maemo-devel too Jan 29 23:44:10 odin_: I'm also porting lots of lenny/lucid packages ATM. I've already ported most of the relevant builddeps Jan 29 23:45:58 micro can handle more insertions, and with usb just get a usb hub, spec can handle upto 128 devices Jan 29 23:46:02 how do you use your debhelper7 in the SDK, if its inside the extras-devel ? isn't that for on device and in scratchbox (device emulation) only repo ? Jan 29 23:46:19 need debhelper7 in fremantle/tools repo Jan 29 23:46:28 need? Jan 29 23:46:31 need debhelper7 in fremantle/sdk repo Jan 29 23:46:51 yes otherwise anything I create and submit to autobuilder can use/see it Jan 29 23:47:01 ah Jan 29 23:47:12 odin_: I've put some links to the bottom of http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging_a_Qt_application Jan 29 23:47:21 ty t-tan Jan 29 23:47:46 odin_: you only need it for building - not on device, so extras-devel is fine Jan 29 23:48:08 but extras-devel is on device and in emulator repo (its not an SDK repo) Jan 29 23:48:45 odin_: ? you can add it to your sources.list Jan 29 23:49:02 I'm not trying to build packages just for me here Jan 29 23:49:40 what you are proposing is that in my devian/rule I edit the /etc/apt/sources.list file of the SDK autobuilder and have it unstall random stuff ? so I can use it to build with later on in the rules file Jan 29 23:49:46 i.e. this is not a solution Jan 29 23:49:58 odin_: you add debhelper7 to builddeps, it's build on autobuilder, and the packages can then be promoted to extras Jan 29 23:50:27 so there is an SDK version (or debhelper7) ? Jan 29 23:50:41 odin_: I've already successfully uploaded packages using debhelper7 Jan 29 23:50:55 i.e. where do I download the autobuilders copy using host-gcc (within the SDK) so I can use it in my SDK Jan 29 23:51:26 an x86 copy build with cs2007q3-glibc2.5-i486 will not work to build an armel target Jan 29 23:51:50 odin_: ? in the SDK you apt-get install debhelper7 and use it. very simple Jan 29 23:52:31 odin_: debhelper is perl - not binary Jan 29 23:52:42 armel target uses SDK with compiler: cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7, x86 target uses SDK with compiler: cs2007q3-glibc2.5-i486, SDK target uses SDK with compiler: host-gcc (these are 3 different compilers and targets and the reason extra-devel is seperate from fremantle/sdk) Jan 29 23:53:36 apt-cache showpkg debhelper7 : W: Unable to locate package debhelper7 Jan 29 23:53:47 Ok, let me rephrase that question: does google desktop work on the n900? Jan 29 23:53:55 anyone configuring up extras-devel for their SDK is making a mistake Jan 29 23:54:34 odin_: *confused* what? why? Jan 29 23:54:39 understood that debhelper7 is a noarch package, but it seems like a trick to use extras-devel inside the SDK, when fremantle/sdk is the repo for that Jan 29 23:54:47 it seems to need glibc 2.3.2+ and gtk+ 2.2.0+ does Maemo have that? Jan 29 23:54:54 because non of the binaries run in the SDK Jan 29 23:55:40 odin_: I think you're mixing up several things. fremantle/sdk is the official Nokia SDK repository with the outdated stuff Jan 29 23:55:53 take an x86 binary from fremantle/sdk (and it will work always inside the SDK, no matter what target you are working with, for example it even works for FREMANTLE_ARMEL target) Jan 29 23:56:00 odin_: extras-devel is where all development is happening Jan 29 23:56:16 take an x86 binary from extra-devel (and it will not work if your target it set to FREMANTLE_ARMEL, but it will work if you setup your target for FREMANTLE_X86) Jan 29 23:57:02 odin_: the arch packages in extras-devel are compiled for both targets. what you mean are the scratchbox tools, which override the sdk tools Jan 29 23:57:19 all development for the device (the maemo platform, i.e. stuff that will run in the N900) Jan 29 23:57:42 there are 3 targets here Jan 29 23:57:48 odin_: e.g. /usr/bin/perl is replaced by /scratchbox/...longpath.../bin/perl Jan 29 23:57:54 there are 2 for developers and 1 for the SDK itself Jan 29 23:58:14 * vinsci2 tries downloading the *-connectivity packages from the pool instead (as apt-get on Debian Sid won't find them), http://pc-connectivity.garage.maemo.org/repository/pool/intrepid/main/ Jan 29 23:58:43 no I'm actually talking about ldd/ld-linux compatibility at runtime, there are 3 targets in total Jan 29 23:59:24 ldd /usr/bin/perl, ldd ./test-program-armel, ldd ./test-program-x86 (check out the libc paths) Jan 29 23:59:56 all of 7KB/s downloading from pc-pconnectivity.maemo.org... not impressed Jan 30 00:00:17 odin_: so why is your SDK target relevant for development? if you develop for Maemo you test on x86, and maybe compile armel for ondevice tests Jan 30 00:00:34 er, pc-connectivity.garage.maemo.org Jan 30 00:00:35 but my issue is with the build process Jan 30 00:00:36 the SDK Jan 30 00:01:20 odin_: I didn't follow the previous discussion - so maybe is missed something. Jan 30 00:01:28 hi ;-] Jan 30 00:01:33 i got confused by odin also Jan 30 00:01:49 as in I fully understand the tools available to me as an application developer to test and finally release an application intended to run on the N900 (maemo platform) Jan 30 00:01:56 odin_: can you give a specific example? Jan 30 00:01:57 but my entry point to this discussion as over needing to fix the SDK, due to limitations Jan 30 00:02:18 yes the example that a number of the /usr/bin/dh_* tools do not support --prefix Jan 30 00:02:45 odin_: we cannot fix the scratchbox+standard SDK, we can only override parts it - see my debhelper7 trick Jan 30 00:02:46 to make that fix the SDK needs a patch (the solution can not be achieve by releasing something into extras-devel) Jan 30 00:03:33 perhaps you have interest in joining sdk community Jan 30 00:03:45 odin_: if want to fix it for all packages automatically w/o modification - no that's not possible Jan 30 00:04:47 the builddeps we have now are light years ahead of 2007 :) Jan 30 00:04:48 odin_: it's another design flaw that scratchbox tools have debhelper - it's should only have gcc/dpkg Jan 30 00:04:53 lol no... of course not.. but its not possible for anyone until an updated debhelper for the SDK comes out (with a change people can use) Jan 30 00:05:18 t-tan: how build packages w/o dh? Jan 30 00:05:55 pupnik, what is the "sdk community" you mean scratchbox ? or the "maemo sdk community" ? Jan 30 00:05:58 pupnik: the idea is that you would install debhelper within the rootstrap, and it would be not overriden by the tools Jan 30 00:06:34 you mean a more spartan and basic scratchbox (with everything else on top configurable) Jan 30 00:06:55 odin_: correct Jan 30 00:07:31 odin_: that's what I tried initially. move all conflicting outdated binaries in the devkits away Jan 30 00:07:33 ah ty t-tan Jan 30 00:08:05 odin_: i imagine much can be done to help upcoming release of maemo sdk Jan 30 00:08:30 so as a temporary fix - to use the installed debs instead of the devkits you need to make heavy use of SBOX_REDIRECT_IGNORE Jan 30 00:09:09 pupnik: I doubt that Nokia would introduce large changes - that's all reserved for harmattan Jan 30 00:09:42 sure but getting an/multiple SDK enviroments that are effectively etch/lenny and sarge that just all work Jan 30 00:09:43 they are extremely conservative - they even sticked to 2006 build tools... Jan 30 00:09:55 would allow maintainers to do less work Jan 30 00:10:15 k ty for the info Jan 30 00:10:28 odin_: they could simply officially support the SDK+ (which already has lenny) Jan 30 00:11:03 http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/ Jan 30 00:11:37 If I wanted an unsupported phone, I would have bought an OpenMoko... Jan 30 00:13:39 damn tmo Jan 30 00:13:43 the extras-devel auto-builder is only using the support SDK so SDK+ is of no benifit to anyone but an application developer ? Jan 30 00:14:33 odin_: correct. AFAIK Mer has a much more sophisticated autobuilder Jan 30 00:15:23 well it doesn't need to be sophisticated, the battle being fought is over wanting recent versions of software to be built but because its based on etch is doesn't just work out-the-box Jan 30 00:15:33 you have to port them (backport them!) what a waste of community time Jan 30 00:15:54 so the question is, what could be done to stop that scenario happening Jan 30 00:17:05 odin_: what specific build dependencies are you missing? Jan 30 00:17:21 answer I can come up with is, simply have 3 versions of SDK that people want to use, etch, lenny and sarge (what I mean by this is that built in tools, base debian system as based off those distributions) so when I run "dpkg -l foobar" I get a newer version I can build with Jan 30 00:17:40 but the Nokia N900 libraries remain the same across all versions (the compile/link time stuff) Jan 30 00:17:46 ok let me see... Jan 30 00:18:15 texlive-latex-base (take that one) Jan 30 00:18:40 odin_: my TeXlive2009 port is in extras-devel Jan 30 00:19:13 built with host-gcc ? i.e. for SDK ? Jan 30 00:19:21 yes i am TeX user .. but i wonder for what one needs that on the n900 Jan 30 00:19:32 anyone ported a printing system yet? Jan 30 00:19:33 stop throwing any FREMANTLE_X86 or FREMANTLE_ARMEL target stuff at me, as if it is SDK stuff, it is not Jan 30 00:19:42 yes, can be promoted to extras as soon as some problems are resolved Jan 30 00:19:51 that is the point... I don't need it on the N900, I just need it inside the SDK Jan 30 00:19:57 I shall never install it on N900 Jan 30 00:20:33 so you want a latex devkit. Jan 30 00:21:00 why? is any latex stuff that much CPU consuming? Jan 30 00:21:01 I'm not a latex man, so I don't know what I need, I just want a "Build Dependancy" resolved correctly, not bodged around Jan 30 00:21:11 a Build-Dependency on latex? Jan 30 00:21:12 cehteh: the are many applications: matplotlib text formatting, revising papers on the device ... Jan 30 00:21:34 odin_: you can install it on both the N900 (its optified) and the SDK Jan 30 00:21:44 all I can do is all out the missing build dependencies stopping lenny applications from being built on the SDK out-the-box Jan 30 00:21:58 s/is all out/is call out/ Jan 30 00:21:59 odin_ meant: all I can do is call out the missing build dependencies stopping lenny applications from being built on the SDK out-the-box Jan 30 00:22:00 with that logic in mind, why not put gtk1.2 too. Jan 30 00:22:08 it's also stopping all lenny packages from building in sbox. Jan 30 00:22:11 the build dep on latex is often only for the docs, which can be omitted Jan 30 00:22:42 yes this is the same problem, just a different build dependency Jan 30 00:23:08 SO what one usually does is Jan 30 00:23:12 javispedro: latex works perfectly on embedded devices Jan 30 00:23:15 either remove the dependency (which is what I suggest here) Jan 30 00:23:24 or package the dependency (which has been done already) Jan 30 00:23:40 or (in case it is a CPU consuming build dependency) create a new sbox devkit (which is clearly not the case here) Jan 30 00:23:43 its been packaged for the device, great.. but I want it for the SDK Jan 30 00:24:14 odin_: there is NO conflict - everything for the device can be installed on the SDK as well Jan 30 00:24:16 (the only reason I could think for that weird "desire":) the SDK qemu doesn't run latex? Jan 30 00:24:26 I want it linked against /scratchbox/host_shared/* Jan 30 00:24:49 odin_: why? if it's only a build dependency? Jan 30 00:25:02 odin_: that is a very stupid thing to do unless you plan a devkit. and I don't recommend a devkit for this. Jan 30 00:25:03 Sooo Jan 30 00:25:04 if its a build time dependency its the SDK version that should be used Jan 30 00:25:08 I need some help Jan 30 00:25:09 :) Jan 30 00:25:38 otherwise I have to install 2 versions every time and it uses the DEVICES copy of libraries to run Jan 30 00:25:40 odin_: I don't understand why you insist on that? Jan 30 00:25:46 odin_: that's the proper way. Jan 30 00:26:35 the device's runtime libs have nothing to do with the build time libs Jan 30 00:26:48 the device has a different lifecycle to the SDK Jan 30 00:27:12 the SDK can continue forever to use newer stuff, while the runtime libs for N900 stay based around what Nokia release when they release it Jan 30 00:27:26 if you want max control you should as much as possible from device Jan 30 00:27:31 Soo ON my Nokia N900 I used the DEVICE LOCK feature. And put a code Jan 30 00:27:38 odin_: that's not true. the SDK so far has received an update with each new device pr. Jan 30 00:28:00 Which I was asked for in order to enable the feature.... It turned out that I have mistyped the code and don't know it at all Jan 30 00:28:04 (and much like the older SDKs) will stop receiving updates with the last OS upgrade. Jan 30 00:28:06 how can I RESET that Jan 30 00:28:20 javispedro, sure.. and there is nothing wrong with that, but there is no reason the SDK can not be based on lenny/sarge/beleeding-edge stuff, but still work perfectly to link again current N900 runtime libs Jan 30 00:28:43 odin_: IN FACT the SDK uses sarge packaging tools but more recent "libs". Jan 30 00:28:57 and those libs match the device's. Jan 30 00:29:01 aok, you mistyped the code the same way twice when setting it? Jan 30 00:29:10 no Jan 30 00:29:14 when trying to enable it Jan 30 00:29:23 but otherwise don't know... it seems Jan 30 00:29:24 yes Jan 30 00:29:28 well observe /scratchbox/host_shared/lib/libc-2.3.2.so and /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/arm-none-linux-gnueabi/libc/lib/libc-2.5.so versions Jan 30 00:29:43 I am very absent minded vinsci2 Jan 30 00:29:44 odin_: how would make sure that stuff build with newer libs also works on the device? Jan 30 00:29:54 there is no reason why SDK should not be using libc-2.11.1.so Jan 30 00:30:16 odin_: there's no reason why SDK "tools"/"devkits" to be using any libc version, too. Jan 30 00:30:20 AOK, I'd guess that one of the digits wasn't enterered. Perhaps try leaving each one out, i turn? Jan 30 00:30:25 in fact my vdso patches patch that libc. Jan 30 00:30:39 s/too/true. Jan 30 00:30:41 vinsci2: trust me... I tried a lot of combinations Jan 30 00:31:00 what I am explaining, does not affect the object code or linkage created for either FREMANTLE_ARMEL or FREMANTLE_X86 (your question indicates you're not understanding the 3 targets that exist) Jan 30 00:31:48 odin_: that's why they're called TOOLS. Jan 30 00:31:54 the 3 targets are /scratchbox/host_shared/lib/libc-2.3.2.so /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/arm-none-linux-gnueabi/libc/lib/libc-2.5.so and /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-i486/i486-pc-linux-gnu/libc/lib/libc-2.5.so Jan 30 00:32:47 aok, google comes up with this: http://nfader.z-host.ru/ Jan 30 00:33:13 I am looking at it like this, in order to reduce wasted community time on this "backporting" concept, you simply needs scratchbox tooling to be as per the official i686 version of debian lenny/sarge (i.e. for host-gcc) Jan 30 00:33:18 odin_: yes, I understand. but I don't understand why you even want to touch that dead beast Jan 30 00:33:23 odin_: true. Jan 30 00:33:29 (though that's a _hard_ thing) Jan 30 00:33:54 maybe thats what I don't understand, the reasons why it is hard! Jan 30 00:33:55 odin_: you have to understand that "tools"/"devkits" are THE EXCEPTION, not the rule. Jan 30 00:33:58 odin_: yes, we all agree. but that's much more work than backport a few packages Jan 30 00:34:21 odin_: ideally every package would be native, but, for performance/qemu breackage/black magic reasons, there are devkits . Jan 30 00:35:17 I'm thinking that doing a download and grep of all *.dsc files and looking for packages in Build-Depends and building them natively ? Jan 30 00:35:22 so, like in this case where you have a perfectly functional native latex package, use it. Jan 30 00:35:50 odin_: if you want hildon with a more recent base system, have a look at mer. Jan 30 00:36:04 odin_: yes, or first try replacing them with the existing version and check whether it works Jan 30 00:36:10 native is host-gcc, I don't look at FREMANTLE_X86 i native (sure its CPU native, but it uses potentially bastardized Nokia libc) Jan 30 00:36:22 s/X86 i native/X86 as native/ Jan 30 00:36:23 odin_ meant: native is host-gcc, I don't look at FREMANTLE_X86 as native (sure its CPU native, but it uses potentially bastardized Nokia libc) Jan 30 00:36:26 by "native" I mean x86 on _X86, armel on _ARMEL Jan 30 00:36:47 only host-gcc qualified a native here Jan 30 00:37:14 "native to the target", if you wish. Jan 30 00:38:02 as N900 evolved host runtime libs will become bastardized away from debian's tree (my thinking keeps this disconnection and independant requirements/lifecycles apart) Jan 30 00:38:06 AOK, any luck? Jan 30 00:38:51 n900 doesn't evolve. Jan 30 00:38:57 lol Jan 30 00:39:04 and fremantle won't either. Jan 30 00:39:32 but I'm sure Nokia's bank balance will ! Jan 30 00:39:34 odin_: our problem is that libc and mostly gtk/hildon are severly out of sync. Qt (the future) is not Jan 30 00:39:39 if there's a breaking libc change any day, be assured the resulting thing won't be named fremantle. Jan 30 00:40:08 vinsci2: Jan 30 00:40:10 vinsci2: Will NOT work on any of BB5 generation (all newest phones), like: Jan 30 00:40:10 3250, 5300, 5310, 5400, 5500, 6125, 6131, 6233, 6234, 6280, 6282, 6630, 6680, 6681, 6682, 7370, 7373, 7390, all E-series, all N-series. Jan 30 00:40:20 Including my N900 already tried Jan 30 00:40:22 it ;-) Jan 30 00:40:26 but thanks anyways Jan 30 00:40:26 oh Jan 30 00:40:35 I thought of some file on LINUX Jan 30 00:40:45 aok, got any user data on it you care for? Jan 30 00:40:47 I look at our problem in that the SDK needs to be as uptodate and independatly updatable as possible, do that and all the maintenance headache between taking official debian stuff and making it work will disappear Jan 30 00:41:22 AOK, the FAQ on that site lists a code to enter which apparently resets the phone to factory defaults (and erases your user data) Jan 30 00:41:49 well I don't want that Jan 30 00:41:49 AOK, I have no idea if that works on the N900, but I tried a few of the others and they worked Jan 30 00:41:50 like that would work.. Jan 30 00:42:13 odin_: do you know you can make a debian chroot and just run your stuff there and even build it on the device? Jan 30 00:42:22 Cool vinsci2 as I said will have it in mind for other NOKIAs since I am a fan, but for this particular one Jan 30 00:42:35 I believe that the solution is to be found in TERMINAL mode ;-) Jan 30 00:42:41 Still anyone else? Jan 30 00:42:57 vinsci2: any other ideas? Jan 30 00:43:15 cehteh: CUPS could be ported. for now you can use the one from easydeb Jan 30 00:43:32 maemo is not debian for a good reason. it's running on tiny handheld devices Jan 30 00:43:34 i dont really need it :) Jan 30 00:43:53 javispedro, if a binutils/gcc toolchain exists for armel (as I'm sure it will be around somewhere) but the issue/problem here is over mass porting of lenny/sarge packages (which is best done on something with space/hosepower/etc... i.e. not the device) Jan 30 00:44:08 pupnik++ (in fact I was writing that and you made me erase it =) ) Jan 30 00:44:12 hellu Jan 30 00:44:13 javispedro, what is the chroot method ? (I understand what chroot is, just what do you mean by, "you can even....") Jan 30 00:44:40 add a binary distrobution of some sort to SD Jan 30 00:44:44 run from there Jan 30 00:44:45 looking to write a camera app to enable the led flash while recording Jan 30 00:44:46 hehe Jan 30 00:44:50 odin_: debootstrap --foreing Jan 30 00:44:53 where to start Jan 30 00:44:54 mind the typo. Jan 30 00:45:02 chroot /media/card/ bin/bash Jan 30 00:45:06 odin_: I'm currently working on a native gcc4.4 toolchain - because I need gfortran Jan 30 00:45:29 i agree with odin_ that it is frustrating to build things sometimes Jan 30 00:45:50 but i know in my case it is mostly due to pebcak Jan 30 00:46:08 and because debian doesn't test packages for clean cross-building Jan 30 00:46:54 t-tan, may I ask what you need gfortran for? (I'm using it for a project myself ATM, after having successfully avoided fortran for decades... ;-) Jan 30 00:47:02 t-tan, I have built binutils/gcc for other embeded targets before for use, how far have you got with a native toolchain ? and you are aware that you can't do much about ABI versions (if they changed/improved something) Jan 30 00:47:26 vinsci2: builddep for scipy, r-base and other scientific stuff Jan 30 00:47:41 ah, more power to you Jan 30 00:47:47 Looks like all the IM account packages just got updated to v0.8 Jan 30 00:48:18 t-tan: native as in "native to the target", or a devkit? Jan 30 00:48:23 vinsci2: for now I use fort77, but it doesnt support F90/95 Jan 30 00:48:29 s/devkit/sbox toolchain Jan 30 00:48:44 javispedro: native to target Jan 30 00:48:55 that should be doable Jan 30 00:49:07 javispedro: you could even install it on the device, but I need is a builddep Jan 30 00:49:10 ... if qemu cooperates, of course. Jan 30 00:49:13 t-tan, about to help these guys out a bit: http://www.voacap.com/ It's a radio wave propagation prediction tool, originally developed for Voice of America Jan 30 00:49:28 javispedro: yes, that the the big question... Jan 30 00:49:43 t-tan: I'd suggest building it for armv4 Jan 30 00:50:41 t-tan, would be fun to run that natively on the phone, too Jan 30 00:50:43 t-tan: the default fremantle toolchain has -march=cortex-a8 and tbh I rather doubt qemu's ability to handle it gracefully, though who knows. Jan 30 00:51:30 s/has/uses Jan 30 00:51:41 javispedro: we'll see. I'm first need to get the testsuites working and then we can see how far I can go Jan 30 00:52:10 I think qemu has had arm support for years Jan 30 00:52:11 vinsci2: yes, might be useful for JIT Jan 30 00:52:55 vinsci2: yes it's had support for years, but bugs are not uncommon. Jan 30 00:53:00 see the cmake story. Jan 30 00:53:11 (or the reason the GUI doesn't boot in _ARMEL, AFAIU) Jan 30 00:53:22 vinsci2: so voacop needs F90+? Jan 30 00:54:03 goodbye Jan 30 00:54:05 javispedro: there's a more uptodate version for sb2. maybe that could be replaced on autobuilder? Jan 30 00:54:27 t-tan: there's a thread on devel about updating autobuilder, though I'm sure you've read it :) Jan 30 00:54:55 (at least, about updating some of the devkits...) Jan 30 00:55:12 javispedro: yes, it should have added: "sometime in the future" :) Jan 30 00:55:33 :) Jan 30 00:56:03 I personally want to ditch the sarge devkit and get support for 3.0-quilt source packages Jan 30 00:56:04 t-tan, well, the linux version is compiled using gfortran on Debian. All I know so far. Jan 30 00:56:35 "sometime in the future" I will try to enter that devkit hell.. Jan 30 00:57:10 vinsci2: IIRC there was the idea to integrate native (armel) autobuilder boxes Jan 30 00:57:11 t-tan, building a cross-compiler tool-chain from gcc isn't too complicated though. You don't have to make it a native compiler. Jan 30 00:57:42 t-tan, I used to do things like that back in the Amiga days Jan 30 00:57:46 vinsci2: if I want to upload packages to extras, there's no alternative... Jan 30 00:58:12 what is the reason that scratchbox exists again ? (sure this is the way Nokia do thinks... but remind/recap us on what problems is solves/addresses for packaging/shipping/autobuilders.... I'm happy with my understanding of how easy a developer can work with the platform to do stuff) Jan 30 00:58:36 t-tan, ah. I only received my N900 last week and never looked at maemo before, so I have a lot of catching up to do Jan 30 00:59:24 t-tan, I'm pretty experienced with Debian though and have built packages for them so it shouldn't be too hard Jan 30 00:59:33 vinsci2: if you want to port voacap, maybe try fort77 first. it already works for some fortran packages Jan 30 00:59:43 i have a long list of things for you vinsci2 :) Jan 30 00:59:50 I'm thinking that you take a base install of etch/lenny or sarge and install the cross-compilers and away you go ? Jan 30 01:00:03 pupnik, list of things to do? :) Jan 30 01:00:10 yaha Jan 30 01:00:14 odin_: making for the fact that most debian packages just don't build with a cross-compiler. Jan 30 01:00:33 http://pupnik.de/software.html has some - kobo deluxe would be nice. exult also Jan 30 01:00:35 first on my own list is to get anki running. It appears to be missing dependencies in the .deb Jan 30 01:00:42 hehe ook Jan 30 01:01:22 pupnik, I'd add MAME to that list. Jan 30 01:01:24 all things using autoconf SHOULD do ? infact I have done so on the N900 SDK Jan 30 01:02:12 odin_: not even all things using autoconf do, and then there's the rest of build systems. Jan 30 01:02:18 javispedro: you mean you want an uptodate quilt? or does it also require more recent dpkg? Jan 30 01:02:28 t-tan: it requires lenny's dpkg version. Jan 30 01:02:31 pupnik, Atari released the source code to several of the classic arcade games last year, things like Asteroids and Centipede among many others. Jan 30 01:02:41 pupnik, and they all run on MAME Jan 30 01:02:45 Whaaa! awesome Jan 30 01:02:53 someone else maintains sdlmame Jan 30 01:03:02 there's both sdlmame and xmame Jan 30 01:03:16 javispedro: only as builddep, correct? Jan 30 01:03:24 mame for the N900? Jan 30 01:03:37 t-tan: afaik, yes. Jan 30 01:03:39 emulating the 6502 isn't hard... Jan 30 01:04:00 javispedro: should be possible as a backport with a different package name, the same for autoconf Jan 30 01:04:17 t-tan: no, it requires a few changes to autobuilder Jan 30 01:04:32 javispedro: for unpacking the source? Jan 30 01:04:32 since autobuilder will extract sources using older dpkg version, Jan 30 01:04:34 vinsci2: any pointers for me to where those can be found?\ Jan 30 01:04:35 yep Jan 30 01:04:40 and also for allowing one to upload it :) Jan 30 01:04:45 pupnik, hold on Jan 30 01:05:00 javispedro: what's the advantage of the new source package format? Jan 30 01:05:22 t-tan: ditches .diff.gz and many potential errors that come from it (for example inadvertently modifying a file) Jan 30 01:05:38 t-tan: every changed file from the tarball belongs to a "named" patch. Jan 30 01:05:58 (or more than one, of course) Jan 30 01:06:00 javispedro: hopefully also removes the limitation text-only patches in diff.gz Jan 30 01:06:19 javispedro: but that already works with std quilt? Jan 30 01:06:58 t-tan: it removes that limitation, since the debian folder comes in a .tar.gz now Jan 30 01:07:06 javispedro: e.g. if you want to include a binary icon in the diff Jan 30 01:07:32 javispedro: I see. would be really nice to have that on autobuilder Jan 30 01:08:15 you can see documentation for the format on dpkg-source(1) on any recent debian distro Jan 30 01:08:21 s/on/in Jan 30 01:08:24 i make a generic stub for autobuilder and put exe in /share :) Jan 30 01:08:26 jk jk Jan 30 01:09:15 pupnik, here: http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/7800/games/ Jan 30 01:09:28 javispedro: how difficult would it be to backport from a new tgz to a diff.gz format? Jan 30 01:09:54 t-tan: consider a debian.tar.gz containing binary files: I guess, hard. Jan 30 01:10:04 well, your autoconverter could uuencode them all :) Jan 30 01:10:43 javispedro: so far that's pretty uncommon and could be worked around Jan 30 01:11:15 most of my packages have some kind of binary file there (icons..) Jan 30 01:11:20 this could be gold vinsci2 ... will look into legality Jan 30 01:11:21 but yes, can be worked around. Jan 30 01:12:08 pupnik, afaik they are released by Atari themselves Jan 30 01:12:24 pupnik: I have "wla" packaged for debian, in case you're interested. (wla is a suite of assemblers/linkers for 6502 and derivates which I used to build some public domain snes roms) Jan 30 01:13:31 cool Jan 30 01:13:46 Facebook Chat is now working in Maemo 5. :) Jan 30 01:14:06 been playing with my own robotron remake Jan 30 01:14:36 pupnik, hmm, or maybe not. This is were I read about it originally, the site has added a "PS 2" explaining that it was atarimuseum releasing the code http://www.programmerfish.com/source-code-of-several-7800-games-released/ Jan 30 01:15:16 i'll have to see how faithful the 7800 remakes are Jan 30 01:16:10 I need some sleep. good night! Jan 30 01:16:28 night t-tan Jan 30 01:18:18 zerojay: what app for facebook chat? Jan 30 01:18:43 pupnik, so here I got the link 1st... http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07/03/1838250/Source-Code-of-Several-Atari-7800-Games-Released Jan 30 01:20:07 greenfly: Just add it as another IM account in the default internal IM client... Conversations. Jan 30 01:20:16 awesome. thanks Jan 30 01:25:41 oh, nice, countdown timer has more or less the ui I was looking for in such a thing Jan 30 01:26:30 of course it's "Countdown Tim" in the launcher which is a bit suboptimal Jan 30 01:26:56 One less byte to write to memory... sounds optimal to me. ;) Jan 30 01:29:22 Can I load the map data for ovi maps manually? Map Loader 3.0.28.0 refuses to recognise the N900 Jan 30 01:32:55 launch ovi maps on the n900 first, download some online, then connect it via usb and drive mode Jan 30 01:33:04 err.. mass storage mode. Jan 30 01:33:33 that version of map loader recognizes n900 as mass storage here. Jan 30 01:56:46 heya guys, how r u ? Jan 30 02:06:44 :o kimitake is in here Jan 30 02:13:02 guys Jan 30 02:13:08 i have one bloody silly question Jan 30 02:13:11 is anyone alive? Jan 30 02:14:57 oh ;/ Jan 30 02:20:13 no Jan 30 02:20:29 no to which question ? Jan 30 02:44:32 Somebody had tried to install Maemo 5 in a mobile with Windows CE? Jan 30 02:58:29 hola a todos Jan 30 02:58:36 alguien habla español Jan 30 02:58:38 :S **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 30 02:59:57 2010