**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 27 02:59:56 2010 Feb 27 03:01:23 I wish the backlid would not have this weird bump around the camera. (I know it is a stand, but I'd prefer the device lying flat on the table... Feb 27 03:01:46 nomis: 100% ack Feb 27 03:02:07 designer's epic fail Feb 27 03:03:49 but recently designers seem to tend to the notion the device _never_ sits on the table and you still would like to operate it Feb 27 03:03:59 if I'd have a spare back I'd probably experiment with adding additional bumps for stability. Feb 27 03:04:12 there's a lot of current designs with egg shaped backside Feb 27 03:04:47 yeah, I totally don't understand that. Feb 27 03:05:22 I don't dare use it with the stand open either, it looks way too weak Feb 27 03:05:53 stand is rather useless beyond just having it display Feb 27 03:06:06 designers obviously giving a shit about real world usage patterns. I've seen a hell of this at some company I won't name here Feb 27 03:07:16 any new apps Feb 27 03:07:18 worth mentioning Feb 27 03:07:47 how muhc longer is the n900 gonna be supported? whens the cutoff day? Feb 27 03:08:22 acidjazz: pleeeease don't start another meego killed N900 rant Feb 27 03:08:26 lol Feb 27 03:08:43 are they going to send out a signal that just shuts all n900s down Feb 27 03:09:02 acidjazz: they have to, because it does not contain an x86 processor. Feb 27 03:09:08 or maybe just turns them into new n950 buying devices Feb 27 03:09:10 no.... i am!!! MUHAHAHAHAHAHA Feb 27 03:13:45 hii Feb 27 03:13:58 raster: btw cell technology seeing improvements every other week. It's not such an unlikely thing to see batteries with higher capacity same formfactor Feb 27 03:13:59 is tarek here Feb 27 03:14:00 one more thing, what sort of options are there for using the N900 as a modem for hooking up to a PC? Feb 27 03:14:11 without third party programs Feb 27 03:15:25 opion 1: use the pc mode coming by default Feb 27 03:17:04 U seen the requester popping up when you plug the USB to PC? Feb 27 03:17:24 "mass storage" / "PC-suite Mode" Feb 27 03:17:24 ]do not the kind fo improvements u see in silicon (doubling capacity every year or 2) Feb 27 03:17:30 nope, I haven't ordered mine yet :P Feb 27 03:17:43 ooh, yes I have seen that on "regular phones" Feb 27 03:18:00 mass storage should be kiled for such devices Feb 27 03:18:02 killed Feb 27 03:18:04 stupid idea Feb 27 03:18:08 yep Feb 27 03:18:11 should always be "usbnet" Feb 27 03:18:22 + samda/nfs Feb 27 03:18:35 (and ssh and ... (http. ftp, etc.) Feb 27 03:18:36 esp since it makes up for the need to have VFAT on 28GB of the mass storage :-( Feb 27 03:18:43 no good reason not to do this Feb 27 03:20:46 well, you could mkfs.ext3 on the /home/MyDocs, if only... (/me frowns) cam borks on non-VFAT fs - WTF?? Feb 27 03:21:39 stupidity Feb 27 03:21:49 maximum stupidity Feb 27 03:22:21 is there a bug report for that? the apps shouldnt know nor care? Feb 27 03:22:49 btw, wifi access point could be great for places where you have poor signal strength to the mobile network :P Feb 27 03:22:57 bug report should be "you used fat... thats just silly!" Feb 27 03:23:05 so you can put the phone in a good spot without needing a long cable :> Feb 27 03:23:19 well can see the point of fat Feb 27 03:23:28 i cant Feb 27 03:23:40 windows and peoples expectations Feb 27 03:24:03 lcukn900: as aboive. dont do mass storage. you have a non-dumb device with a non-dumb host Feb 27 03:24:09 even if host is windows Feb 27 03:24:19 use usbnet + cifs (sambda) network file sharing Feb 27 03:24:31 or nfs for mac/linux guys if they like (no harm in offering both) Feb 27 03:24:43 a file based usb storage class is something that needs to be invented. Feb 27 03:24:56 nomis: microsoft did already Feb 27 03:25:07 the n900 acts pretty much like 99pc of cams and phones and devices Feb 27 03:25:08 err what was it called? Feb 27 03:25:13 raster: there is PTP, but it is very much tailored to specific file types. Feb 27 03:25:14 mpd? Feb 27 03:25:16 something Feb 27 03:25:26 mtp Feb 27 03:25:27 that was it Feb 27 03:25:55 lcukn900: if 99% of sheep jump off a cliff - then it must be a good idea to do the same. right? Feb 27 03:26:05 raster: know the best of the whole joke? VFAT needs to umount for mass storage XP Feb 27 03:26:21 ah right. Slightly extended PTP. But why tf did they focus on media files? Feb 27 03:26:22 do yes. makes sense ar eu are dealing with a device on the block level Feb 27 03:26:35 when we are talking billions of devices - momentum is huge, so most likely yeah Feb 27 03:26:38 2 machines working on the same set of blocks with an fs on top is going to screw it up completely Feb 27 03:26:47 using the nfs method will remove that need Feb 27 03:26:49 :) Feb 27 03:27:01 lcukn900: there is no NEED to do it that way Feb 27 03:27:22 lcukn900: you plug in and your phone for 99% of the world will appear as a file share on your network Feb 27 03:27:30 that includes windows, mac and linux users Feb 27 03:27:38 and it will work just as well as mass storage Feb 27 03:27:46 actually better as there is no unmounting needed Feb 27 03:27:54 thus the dev ie should be able to appear more quickly Feb 27 03:28:07 and both phone and pc can access the files., modify etc. at the same time Feb 27 03:28:23 raster: (block) what I say Feb 27 03:28:41 when we are talking billions of devices - momentum is huge, so most likely yeah Feb 27 03:28:54 keep with the old and the new Feb 27 03:29:02 fuck Feb 27 03:29:05 lcukn900: it doesnt mattere about billions of devices, momentum.. its WRONG Feb 27 03:29:08 up arrow on n900 Feb 27 03:29:23 i typed something conpletely different Feb 27 03:29:33 there is another way that is just as convenient, useful, compatible etc. AND has none of the associated vfat/mass stroage/mount/unmount pr5oblems etc. Feb 27 03:30:07 if your devivce is DUMB Feb 27 03:30:09 i would like to see a fat wrapper that allowed current style access but using whatever fs is actually on use Feb 27 03:30:14 its some 8bit microcontroller PIC Feb 27 03:30:28 or some tiny rtos - ro just a thumbdrive etc. Feb 27 03:30:37 it cant manage a whole tcp stack. network file sharing etc. Feb 27 03:30:46 when its a phone that runs linux on it.. it can - trivially. Feb 27 03:31:07 dont bother Feb 27 03:31:09 pontless Feb 27 03:31:14 1. very complex Feb 27 03:31:42 lcukn900: I actually implemented a virtual FAT32 filesystem on an avr32 based platform. Feb 27 03:31:55 2. problematic and will have so many bugs that u will see files corrupted/lost and the fs otherwise mangled if u try and emulate a block device with a fat fs and back that with a real fs etc. Feb 27 03:31:58 totally pointless Feb 27 03:32:15 nomis really? was it practical? Feb 27 03:32:22 when u already have a solution - right there. samba and network file shares Feb 27 03:32:25 lcukn900: it works neatly. The problem starts, when file data changes - there is no way to notify the usb host that it should discard cached data. Feb 27 03:32:42 nomis: let the problems begin :) Feb 27 03:32:50 isnt that the same with fat Feb 27 03:33:02 no Feb 27 03:33:03 sftp for linux, ftw. forget nfs Feb 27 03:33:06 because fat assumes a block device Feb 27 03:33:18 aka FUSE Feb 27 03:33:20 and a block device doesnt change conent unless the user of that device - the os with the fat fs, changes it Feb 27 03:33:22 lcukn900: well, that is why the FAT gets unmounted on the n900 when entering mass storage mode. Feb 27 03:33:24 so consistency works Feb 27 03:33:35 err sshfs/FUSE Feb 27 03:33:48 DocScrutinizer: why forget nfs? its there. knfsd - cheap and works on every linux.. and mac box Feb 27 03:34:02 u can do sshfs if u want as well Feb 27 03:34:05 nfs has issues Feb 27 03:34:08 but nfs is low overhead Feb 27 03:34:12 stale locks etc Feb 27 03:34:14 minimal effort and workd Feb 27 03:34:19 nomis assume that there was the same limitation Feb 27 03:34:37 DocScrutinizer: dont allow locking. i disable it on mounting Feb 27 03:34:55 but a way to put fat face on for who needs it and also to allow raster his net based stack Feb 27 03:35:02 mount -t nfs -o noac,actimeo=10,intr,timeo=5,retry=1,nolock Feb 27 03:35:04 ... Feb 27 03:35:20 lcukn900: you dont NEED fat once u have the network fs Feb 27 03:35:39 lcukn900: every windows box that can do usb sotrage can do network fs Feb 27 03:35:50 raster yes, when i plug my camera i Feb 27 03:35:50 lcukn900: you have to ensure that the filesystem content does not change, then you can export it into a virtual (readonly) fat. Feb 27 03:35:51 KEEPINg mass storage keeps problems Feb 27 03:36:14 only for those that dongt use it Feb 27 03:36:16 raster: we *have*. And like I said: we could do mkfs.ext3, if only... (*vomit*) Feb 27 03:36:16 lcukn900: i am not saying to change your desktop. i am saying to change the DEVICe Feb 27 03:36:19 your n900 Feb 27 03:36:30 to change to net alone involves changing all devices Feb 27 03:36:42 lcukn900: no it doesnt! Feb 27 03:36:45 aaaaaaagh! Feb 27 03:36:47 it does NOT Feb 27 03:36:51 not not not not not Feb 27 03:37:00 you change the n900 (for example) Feb 27 03:37:07 as its smart enough to run a network filesystem Feb 27 03:37:22 the hosts it plugs into - as its a usb gadget, udnerstand this protocol already Feb 27 03:37:31 they are already set up and ready to go to use it Feb 27 03:37:41 in fact ready enough were u just get an icon in your file shares Feb 27 03:37:50 you dont have to change any other device anywhere on the planet Feb 27 03:37:57 what other devices use it Feb 27 03:37:57 raster: except that a networked filesystem over USB is a huge usability problem for >90% of the users. Feb 27 03:38:39 heck, even the usb network itself is. Feb 27 03:38:53 nomis: how? on windows, mac and linux your remote host will be brought up - if you solve the "configure the ip asddress" problem (run a dhcpd on the device that advertises an ip, but no gatewaye or dns) Feb 27 03:39:10 so it will come up - auto-configure ip Feb 27 03:39:13 and usb networking from n900 to any of my computers requires a wizards hat and a spell book Feb 27 03:39:16 raster: tell that to my grandma. Feb 27 03:39:26 then u advertise a network file share - which on peoples boxes will show upas an available share Feb 27 03:39:39 they wont look there Feb 27 03:39:41 lcukn900 - don't forget the dead chicken Feb 27 03:39:48 raster: you don't need to explain the idea to *me* - I get it. Feb 27 03:39:56 all the software for win looks in drive letter Feb 27 03:40:07 well for n900 its even better Feb 27 03:40:10 u dont even have to plug it in Feb 27 03:40:10 that i know of Feb 27 03:40:18 its on your wifi Feb 27 03:40:26 irf you are even at home your n900 will appear as a share Feb 27 03:40:38 raster: yeah, that would be the more straightforward way. Feb 27 03:40:45 lcukn900: network file shares are also driver letters Feb 27 03:40:52 if you assume a working Wifi/Network infrastructure. Feb 27 03:40:59 raster i agree. a better way exists. but to ignore a backup standard is folly Feb 27 03:41:17 nomis: even without one. plug into host. host sees usb network device. a windows/mac/linux host will send a dhcp request Feb 27 03:41:45 dhcpd on the n900 hears it and configures up usb net device so its a local loop only - no gateway etc. etc. Feb 27 03:41:47 just ip addr Feb 27 03:42:04 allow both! i like network interface Feb 27 03:42:10 it would speed up ssh Feb 27 03:42:12 lcukn900: u cant do both Feb 27 03:42:15 for dev Feb 27 03:42:22 once u do mass storage the filesystem can only exist in 1 place Feb 27 03:42:26 eg on the pc mounted Feb 27 03:42:28 or on the device Feb 27 03:42:33 and the pc cant see the fs Feb 27 03:42:34 infact Feb 27 03:42:46 raster: you know, there *is* this dialog that allows for selecting a USB client role. Feb 27 03:42:49 ismt this almist what we have Feb 27 03:42:55 pcmode/storage Feb 27 03:43:00 option on pluggin Feb 27 03:43:04 nomis: i'm saying that there isnt a point Feb 27 03:43:11 just without the cloak over fat Feb 27 03:43:20 right now u need it because the n900 DOESNT offer usbnet auto-configure and fileshareing Feb 27 03:43:27 my battery is dying Feb 27 03:43:28 the problem is that "pc mode" lacks automatic filesharing capability, nothing more Feb 27 03:43:32 its all already out there - it's just unused Feb 27 03:43:41 the irony is that mass storage mode only exists for windows users Feb 27 03:43:52 and that automatic filesharing would be easier for everyone Feb 27 03:44:02 and that windows is claimed to be "easy for grandma" Feb 27 03:44:13 when it is actually the worst and hardest to use :) Feb 27 03:44:32 apt-get install samba Feb 27 03:44:38 ali1234: correct. if pc mode had auto file shareing u wouldnt need mass storage (except for rare situations where u can manually ask for it as opposed to have to ask for it every time u are plugged in) Feb 27 03:44:38 ali1234: how do you transfer files via USB when in PC suite mode? Feb 27 03:44:54 nomis: you don't, because nokia didn't bother to implement it Feb 27 03:45:04 gnite \o Feb 27 03:45:17 ali1234: ok, I misunderstood you then. Feb 27 03:45:23 *IF* nokia shipped with samba AND had it configurted to "asdvbertise file share on usb0 network always without permissions.restrictions" Feb 27 03:45:25 nomis: or oyu use pc suite if you enjoy the pain Feb 27 03:45:27 err advertise Feb 27 03:45:33 astnah I can't as I want to get rid of that bloody VFAT then Feb 27 03:45:39 raster: ^^ Feb 27 03:45:51 do install samba? Feb 27 03:45:57 DocScrutinizer: install samba? Feb 27 03:46:09 offer mass storage Feb 27 03:46:14 sigh Feb 27 03:46:30 DocScrutinizer: u mean u cant get rif of it because u need vfat because of camera? Feb 27 03:46:34 it should just emulate a USB hub with both mass storage AND networking... Feb 27 03:46:40 luke-jr - is it ok to PM you? Feb 27 03:46:40 exactly Feb 27 03:46:42 luke-jr: u cant. Feb 27 03:46:48 Termana_n810: yeah, but I might not see it :P Feb 27 03:46:52 raster: u can. :p Feb 27 03:46:54 DocScrutinizer: thats another issue - bug in camera stuff Feb 27 03:47:01 luke-jr: no need for a hub. You can implement multiple classes within a device. The PC suite mode does this. Feb 27 03:47:11 nomis: but does Windows support it sanely? Feb 27 03:47:15 luke-jr: u cant. u cant BOTH mount a mass storage device AND offer it via file sharing over a network Feb 27 03:47:23 its a file system and cn be mounted 1 place only Feb 27 03:47:26 actually you can do mass storage and networking at the same time but the problem is that you can't have the partition mounted while it is in user for mass storage Feb 27 03:47:27 raster: if that bug weren't there I'd not have any VFAT to mass-storage-share Feb 27 03:47:31 raster: I didn't say to offer it over network Feb 27 03:47:37 luke-jr: well, it has to. Otherwise the pc suite mode would not work on windows :) Feb 27 03:47:38 also mass storage does not preclude the use of other filesystems Feb 27 03:47:40 u can try and add fat emulation layers on top of a real host os - u will have lots of troubles Feb 27 03:47:42 it's windows that does that Feb 27 03:47:45 raster: I said to offer it as mass storage, AND also provide network connectivity Feb 27 03:48:25 luke-jr: u can do both of those - sure. i'm not talking that. i'm talking the need to have to have a choice at all and to only provide network mode and over a network u can do everything you need - and do it seamlessly too Feb 27 03:48:44 * nomis heads for the bed. Night all. Feb 27 03:48:50 bluetooth already has this sealed up anyway Feb 27 03:48:51 night Feb 27 03:49:00 you can use obex-ftp at the same time as any other service Feb 27 03:49:00 ali1234: DocScrutinizer is talking about the camera app on the n900 breaking if fs is not fat Feb 27 03:49:06 nothing to do with windows there Feb 27 03:49:11 yeah, that's another reason Feb 27 03:49:58 i'm talking more about nuking the entire mass storage thing Feb 27 03:50:08 and that removes the need for fat on the system as a result Feb 27 03:50:17 and that lets you then choose whatever fs you like Feb 27 03:50:48 and then the fs would likely not be fat (ext3 or something else) and then camera app likely would not break as it would not be assuming fat anymore but a real proper host fs Feb 27 03:50:56 raster: better fat than ext3 Feb 27 03:51:08 and just saying that network can do all the same functions as usb storage - almost as nicely for most os's Feb 27 03:51:26 raster: Windows requires drivers for networking, I hear Feb 27 03:51:32 instead of stroage icon on desktop - u look in file chares instead Feb 27 03:51:33 thats it Feb 27 03:51:50 if anything you should blame the usb org for not implementing a file transfer profile :) Feb 27 03:51:55 luke-jr: you can have a fat-on-loopback file Feb 27 03:52:05 raster: why? Feb 27 03:52:08 expose that via usbstorage fir first time connect to windows and have an autorun.exe to install whatever u need Feb 27 03:52:16 raster: my point is that ext3 on SD is a BAD BAD BAD idea :p Feb 27 03:52:30 it is not worse than fat Feb 27 03:52:37 raster: if I'm on Windows, I don't have rights to install anything Feb 27 03:52:44 ali1234: on SD it is Feb 27 03:52:46 luke-jr: has worked like a charm for me for years and years Feb 27 03:52:51 raster: heh U r stealing my ideas ;-D Feb 27 03:52:54 bah, i'm not going to argue Feb 27 03:53:03 maybe you just have crappy sd cards :) Feb 27 03:53:20 raster: it's not a bug in the SD cards; it's assumptions ext3 makes that just don't hold true on SD Feb 27 03:53:27 DocScrutinizer: nokia already do it - they have an autorun.exe in the fat exposed over mass storage :) Feb 27 03:53:36 mainly, ext3 assumes the block device writes things in order Feb 27 03:53:38 luke-jr: ... Feb 27 03:53:40 aah yes Feb 27 03:53:42 http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17/WFM.png Feb 27 03:53:43 SD cards don't necessarily do that Feb 27 03:54:05 so better to use ext2 or even fat Feb 27 03:54:41 raster: I thought of 3G usb sticks, which play mass storage to install drivers, then driver ejects and stick remounts (here as a modem) Feb 27 03:55:01 DocScrutinizer: good trick - for the windows world :) Feb 27 03:55:53 raster: yup. Though they actually have driver for xandros as well there (the one I got with EeePC in TPE) Feb 27 03:55:58 yeah, another irony of windows. those 3g sticks use standard CDC-ACM profile, so do not technically need drivers Feb 27 03:56:23 luke-jr: in reality u probably want something more like nilfs2 - but in my experience ext3 does perfectly fine - it's never screwed up on me. ext2 works too - tho with unclean mounting without fscks being.. rather bad Feb 27 03:56:29 or doing the fsdk's being bad Feb 27 03:56:51 raster: better than ext3 getting corrupt and you never finding out :p Feb 27 03:57:02 "it's clean!" Feb 27 03:57:03 ali1234: yep Feb 27 03:57:06 luke-jr: never has happened to me. Feb 27 03:57:35 raster: as far as you know Feb 27 03:57:45 raster: not to mention the high wear in the journal block Feb 27 03:58:07 luke-jr: that does need to be fixed - that is true Feb 27 03:58:21 thus why u mentioned nilfs2 Feb 27 03:58:41 bah Feb 27 03:58:53 * DocScrutinizer gives a shit bout wear Feb 27 04:00:34 somebody put it this way: "does it really matter when lifetime of the flash storage is reduced from 100 years to 10 years?" Feb 27 04:01:28 hehehehe Feb 27 04:01:40 with 1k write cycles Feb 27 04:01:46 or 10k even - it mattered Feb 27 04:01:51 with now 100k+ cycles..p its mattering less Feb 27 04:02:06 ack Feb 27 04:02:20 nilfs2 has been chewing my usb key for a few weeks Feb 27 04:02:27 and even when a block wears out, so what? Feb 27 04:02:43 that thing got spare blocks Feb 27 04:02:47 ShadowJK: chewing? Feb 27 04:02:49 two weeks actually... averaging 700k/s write Feb 27 04:03:02 raster, the volume is at 85% full, the GC is having a fun time Feb 27 04:03:09 oooh Feb 27 04:03:14 i've never tried nilfs2 Feb 27 04:03:18 but it looks godo on paper Feb 27 04:03:20 :) Feb 27 04:03:41 840 gigabytes written to a 4gig flash device :-) Feb 27 04:03:43 when does it fail? Feb 27 04:04:10 * ShadowJK forgets how many cycles mlc is supposed to d Feb 27 04:04:11 o Feb 27 04:04:15 * DocScrutinizer elects godo for geek word of March :-D Feb 27 04:04:31 sho these days 100k is standard Feb 27 04:04:43 ShadowJK: these days 100k cycles is pretty standard Feb 27 04:05:28 *without* any wear leveling Feb 27 04:05:34 * ShadowJK blinks Feb 27 04:06:13 so at this rate my drive will fail in 18 years? Feb 27 04:06:24 Your mum doesn't do wear leveling Feb 27 04:06:30 german computer mag c't did a test pretty some years ago. They tortured the sticks for months and couldn't wear a single block Feb 27 04:07:00 I actually have an SD card that I wrote 1 gigabyte per day to that failed silently Feb 27 04:07:28 silently in the sense that it started to return corrupt data for about 8 sectors (SD-sized sectors) per gigabyte Feb 27 04:07:33 they got it up to 100k using ECC Feb 27 04:07:34 constantly moving around :) Feb 27 04:08:00 ShadowJK - how long did it take to die? Feb 27 04:08:00 so your flash drives probably have errors all over them, but they are correctable Feb 27 04:08:15 2 years or so? Feb 27 04:08:24 they probably had unwritable bits when you bought them :) Feb 27 04:08:30 It was my mp3 card, new songs each day Feb 27 04:08:54 one day some files had garbled sections :) Feb 27 04:09:05 ShadowJK: 18 years.. if u continually write to it for 18 years... ? :) Feb 27 04:09:15 hmm, thats not so bad, considering it being just an SD card Feb 27 04:09:21 raster, 18 years at current nilfs-abuse pace I gather Feb 27 04:09:42 Termana_n810, oh, it might not have been the flash itself that failed, it worked fine if I used a slow-ass cardreader to write to it Feb 27 04:09:45 ShadowJK: i'd say thats in the "i dont give a shit" land :) Feb 27 04:09:59 raster, indeed Feb 27 04:10:16 let me put it this way: SSDs for servers get 5 years waranty Feb 27 04:10:49 Transcend's SD cards have "lifetime" warranty ;p Feb 27 04:10:51 I guess they know what they may offer Feb 27 04:11:04 actually the card that silently corrupts is transcend Feb 27 04:11:15 ShadowJK: did u ask for a new card? Feb 27 04:11:27 raster, thrown away the receipt long ago.. Feb 27 04:11:39 that's the point :-P Feb 27 04:11:41 plus, 1 gig card today costs... well you can't get them, but 2 gig costs like 5 euro? Feb 27 04:12:00 lifetime of you or the card? Feb 27 04:12:13 cehteh, I don't know, so I'll just assume the universe Feb 27 04:12:22 ShadowJK: bugger . it's nice to take up such lifetime offers... they seem so good when given.. i think they count on peole doign what u do - throwing away recipts/forgetting etc. Feb 27 04:12:23 "we guarantee it will work until it fails!" Feb 27 04:12:43 cehteh: of the card is nonsense :-) Feb 27 04:13:16 well i think thats what they want Feb 27 04:13:33 luke-jr, you forget the standard guarantee language: "We guarantee the product shall be free of manufacting defects and workmanship defects", or something like that Feb 27 04:13:56 really? Feb 27 04:14:07 when was the last time anything technological was free of manuf defects? Feb 27 04:14:17 has anyone packaged up lua for maemo? Feb 27 04:14:22 it dosn't include design defects Feb 27 04:14:35 no, I mean manuf defects... Feb 27 04:14:44 NAND tends to be expected to have bad blocks from the start... Feb 27 04:14:59 I guess if they're not marked as bad Feb 27 04:15:19 dead pixels aren't very rare Feb 27 04:15:20 etc Feb 27 04:15:29 "Nokia warrants to you that during the warranty period Nokia or a Nokia authorized service company will in a commercially reasonable time remedy defects in materials, design and workmanship" Feb 27 04:15:35 that's what nokia's europe warranty says Feb 27 04:17:21 there's a chip manuf defined limit of defect blocks allowable for a considered good NAND Feb 27 04:17:45 there's a standard for the defect pixels thing too Feb 27 04:17:54 they also guarantee certain blocks being ok Feb 27 04:18:01 ShadowJK: that's a dumb one :P Feb 27 04:18:22 Although the nokia service manual has a one-row table listing the allowed number of defect pixels as 0.. Feb 27 04:19:50 :D Feb 27 04:20:29 People want us to invent a time machine - how can they expect that when we can't make error-free NAND. Feb 27 04:20:44 or error-free chips Feb 27 04:20:45 ShadowJK: that's for QA for factory and repair. I guess that's not what they guarantee to customer Feb 27 04:20:59 Besides which is more important. ERROR-FREE NAND OF COURSE Feb 27 04:21:09 I don't even know what they guarantee the customer Feb 27 04:21:21 seems each service point have their different rules Feb 27 04:22:18 i'd prefer ecc over error-freeness anyways Feb 27 04:22:20 my sheevaplug's .5gig nand seems to have 4 bad blocks Feb 27 04:22:49 5 G nand ? o.O Feb 27 04:22:58 point five Feb 27 04:23:01 4 + 1? Feb 27 04:23:07 0.5 Feb 27 04:23:08 aaaah Feb 27 04:23:08 but these controlers firmwares always seem a bit rushed out Feb 27 04:23:10 512 meg Feb 27 04:24:56 * ShadowJK isn't even using the nand at all Feb 27 04:25:05 me either Feb 27 04:25:25 Alfa Romeo Meeto X-P Feb 27 04:52:29 sshfs is awesome Feb 27 05:10:44 has any one got a guide to setting up openvpn on the n900 Feb 27 05:11:00 finaaaaaly Feb 27 05:11:06 man i havd to fuck with this maemosdk Feb 27 05:11:12 its definitely not set up well Feb 27 05:11:26 I've set up openvpn and it left me dumbfounded, can't help you even though I want to Feb 27 05:12:06 lucent, hard was it? Feb 27 05:12:21 it was tedious Feb 27 05:13:27 I wanted to interact with a security concept (iptables, openvpn) from a non-security point of view (GUI configuration, multi-platform deployment, computer illiterate users) Feb 27 05:13:47 that is never simple or easy in my experience to date. Feb 27 05:14:41 openstandards: openvpn client is not very bad Feb 27 05:14:49 lucent, theres a mod for smoothwall that does work with iptables and openvpn Feb 27 05:15:46 yeah I did use smoothwall but the openvpn integration (I tried this years ago) was like a mess of spaghetti shell scripts Feb 27 05:16:03 not saying anything about it now because I just don't know Feb 27 05:16:37 yeah thats what i'm looking to do, log into my network via that smoothwall mod Feb 27 05:16:51 openstandards: for most networking endeavors on N900 you will need "Dummy" network selection installed, it must be located from Nokia website with a unique download key... did you get that already? Feb 27 05:17:05 lucent, no Feb 27 05:17:15 whats that Feb 27 05:17:16 okay that much I can direct you to, let me find the linkage Feb 27 05:17:21 thanks Feb 27 05:19:09 discussion here -> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=41604 Feb 27 05:19:17 still looking for a more direct linkage Feb 27 05:21:28 openstandards: name of the file I'm searching for is libicd-network-dummy_0.12+0m5_armel.deb Feb 27 05:23:44 openstandards: found it! http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/eula/index.php Feb 27 05:24:44 openstandards: that link generates the key that you'll need Feb 27 05:24:59 follow directions at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=454840 to install the actual deb Feb 27 05:25:30 thanks Feb 27 05:28:57 does the maemo 5 sdk support emulator support connecting to exchange 2007? Feb 27 05:48:33 does the maemo 5 sdk emulator support connecting to exchange 2007? Feb 27 05:51:18 mmgcs: it supports networking, but a lot apps dont work Feb 27 05:51:36 i only see pop3/imap options in the emulator Feb 27 05:51:39 less in armel target .. its only meant for crosscompiling Feb 27 05:52:13 prolly the exchange conectivity programs are not part of the sdk Feb 27 05:52:51 bummer, i'd like to make sure my provider, which is exchange 2007, works before shelling out 500 for an unlocked phone Feb 27 05:54:13 heh the emulator is not like the exact hardware Feb 27 05:54:41 even if it works on the emulator that wont tell anything about the actual n900 and vice versa Feb 27 05:55:03 i understand that, just hoping for a basic test Feb 27 05:55:13 it has some exchange tools .. but well i dont use exchange Feb 27 05:55:28 ugh - exchange Feb 27 05:55:28 try to get someone with a real device to test it for you Feb 27 05:55:32 recipe for pain Feb 27 05:55:33 :) Feb 27 05:55:39 hehe Feb 27 05:55:56 well imap isnt well supported on n900 either :( Feb 27 05:56:07 wish i didn't have exchange hosted but i had some really strange things with google and i got gun shy Feb 27 05:56:11 at least the stock mail client sux Feb 27 05:56:25 thats perfectly possible Feb 27 05:56:28 most stock email clients suck Feb 27 05:56:29 :) Feb 27 05:56:39 someone has a :must do email" checkbox on their things to work on Feb 27 05:56:56 it doesnt include "make it not suck" in that checklist Feb 27 05:57:08 (invariably its simply time constraints) Feb 27 05:57:12 modest looks like its designed and programmed by upper management :) Feb 27 05:57:34 means they have a secretary which sorts their mail and only forwards whats important Feb 27 05:58:25 when you start getting spam regarding specific stocks you invested in using schwab and you were using gmail it's time to get nervous - at least i did Feb 27 05:58:53 so i pay for hosted email - the spam stopped Feb 27 06:00:04 so... i want to develop on the n900 or similar device but i want to make sure i have mail, contacts, calendar before i shell out the money for an unlocked phone Feb 27 06:00:06 heh .. i guess its more how careful you about leaking your email to the public Feb 27 06:00:36 once left out spam starts Feb 27 06:00:56 an i wont trust a provider enough to filter spam out Feb 27 06:01:22 running 'popfile' here, quite liking it Feb 27 06:01:43 i know, i'm in the process of moving to my own private email server but it takes time Feb 27 06:02:06 postfix & dovecot .. :) Feb 27 06:02:46 (and postgrey, to reduce at least the most trival spam attempts) Feb 27 06:02:57 thats my setup, works quite well Feb 27 06:03:03 so what about calendar / contacts? Feb 27 06:03:25 dunno Feb 27 06:03:59 i dont use the n900 for that .. well starting to used contacts, just imported from my old sim card Feb 27 06:04:27 instead calendar i try to use emacs org-mode Feb 27 06:04:30 well, the big 3 are critical to me, hence a quick decision to go exchange for now Feb 27 06:04:50 yes i cant help you much with this things Feb 27 06:05:05 i travel enough to need something that isn't bound to a single box Feb 27 06:05:24 the building things are basically working (contacts and calendar) .. they could be better but its ok'ish Feb 27 06:06:04 i wish i could export my mh folders via imap... nicely... Feb 27 06:06:11 that'd be most loverly Feb 27 06:06:28 i'm not a google fan and i've been in the C++ dev game for 15+ years so it's really appealing to me - i just want basic functionality before i dive in Feb 27 06:06:32 raster: maybe dovecot can do that? Feb 27 06:07:05 i was amazed how well it handles mboxes with indexing .. but finally switched to maildir Feb 27 06:07:26 cehteh: can it? i searched for a while - found nothing. Feb 27 06:07:45 i'd just dearly like my sylpheed mh dirs to be available to devices - like n900's etc. that do image... Feb 27 06:07:55 but stil lkeep all my email nicely in its mh tree that i rsync around Feb 27 06:08:13 how about doing that with maildir? Feb 27 06:08:23 tech is strange... i work on software that gets deployed on satellites but i struggle with finding what i consider to be simple solutions... argh Feb 27 06:08:34 cehteh: mh is maildir - 1 file per mail. dirs for folders Feb 27 06:08:40 ah Feb 27 06:08:50 i thought thats slightly different Feb 27 06:08:58 sylpheeds adds its own .sylpheed-* cache files Feb 27 06:09:03 well then yes dovecot handles it out of the box Feb 27 06:09:04 so it can avoid scanning etc. Feb 27 06:09:17 raster: do you work on geospatial solutions? Feb 27 06:09:51 mmgcs: ummmm no. Feb 27 06:10:04 dovecot makes its own .dovecot indexes or so (dunno exactly the names) Feb 27 06:10:11 cehteh: hmmm.. it does? Feb 27 06:10:22 lemme look Feb 27 06:10:23 interesting, the name "raster" implies image analysis, gis, et cetera Feb 27 06:10:42 mmgcs: it implies image stuff.. thats about it :) Feb 27 06:11:12 /home/ct/Maildir# ls Feb 27 06:11:12 cur dovecot-uidlist dovecot.index dovecot.index.cache dovecot.index.log dovecot.index.log.2 new subscriptions tmp Feb 27 06:11:21 so, multimedia is more you game? Feb 27 06:11:44 mmgcs: statistiucally theres much more "Raster" stuff in desktop gfx, art, games, hollywood than there is in geospatial solutions :) Feb 27 06:11:52 so rather odd that u asked that :) Feb 27 06:12:10 hehe Feb 27 06:12:28 how is the e state? Feb 27 06:12:28 raster: depends on whether you're talking commercial or "intelligence community" Feb 27 06:12:53 for every 1 "intelligence community" theres probably 1000's orf commercial people Feb 27 06:12:54 as i said Feb 27 06:12:58 odd that u asked that :) Feb 27 06:13:10 cehteh: hmmm err good? :) Feb 27 06:13:19 i mean release soon? Feb 27 06:13:29 depends on if you think you know what you know ;) Feb 27 06:14:03 cehteh: it will happen when it happens :) Feb 27 06:14:10 regardless, it's all good :) Feb 27 06:14:51 mmgcs: i know what i know :) and i know that the commercial world is much bigger than the govt itelligence world by money and numbers... so.. as i said.. odd that u asked that :) Feb 27 06:14:52 of course .. just wondering, if there wont be so much progress, e17 would be a vaporware canditate :P Feb 27 06:15:22 cehteh: vaporware is software that is talked about but doesnt exist (cant be seen/used/ etc.) Feb 27 06:15:25 eq7 has never been that Feb 27 06:15:30 ah, i'm not talking bigger, i'm talking science Feb 27 06:15:31 i lost a bit focus, started with e many years ago, but using ion now :) Feb 27 06:15:34 raster: not just software... Feb 27 06:15:36 so by definition. it can never be vaporware as its source has been open since day 1 Feb 27 06:15:37 :) Feb 27 06:16:04 Pandora = vapourware :) Feb 27 06:16:04 mmgcs: science is much smaller than the commercial world :) Feb 27 06:16:06 hence i say there is so much progress but no release Feb 27 06:16:19 luke-jr: true. in a broader sense of the meaning. Feb 27 06:16:23 not a lot of games that can take hyperspectral imagery and figure out what's happening Feb 27 06:16:56 regardless... Feb 27 06:17:01 cehteh: h we are busy on the libraries. e isnt released because basically its not being worked on. the libraries (efl) are. thats where 95% of all the work is going Feb 27 06:17:58 mmgcs: that doesnt much matter... as i said - io find it curious that your immediate leap was into a very small niche field as opposed to picking a more obvious larger-populated one Feb 27 06:17:59 :) Feb 27 06:18:30 raster: well i guess that's because $$ is not an issue for me at this time Feb 27 06:19:05 smaller numbers providing the right software to the appropriate niche is way more profitable than mass market Feb 27 06:19:20 just my opinion and experience Feb 27 06:19:41 mmgcs: issue as in you earn so much of it u just dont care? or you sit on a mountain of it? or that youa re more of an existential "it's all about the love and betterment of mankind dude" variety? :) Feb 27 06:20:11 ok - so it's "you're making a mint selling to a govt niche" :) Feb 27 06:20:12 raster: excellent! Feb 27 06:20:12 fair enough Feb 27 06:20:33 i'll fess up Feb 27 06:20:47 hey - good on ya if u are Feb 27 06:20:58 govts eat up enough of my money in taxes Feb 27 06:21:03 need to get them back somehow Feb 27 06:21:08 i have my own methods of doing that Feb 27 06:21:14 haha Feb 27 06:21:23 i'm board with my iphone and blackberry and am have been programming c++ for 15 years and i'm bored Feb 27 06:21:28 lol Feb 27 06:21:32 typo Feb 27 06:21:35 mmgcs: fair enough Feb 27 06:21:48 i have some ideas that i see as hobbies Feb 27 06:21:49 i just want a phone i can code for and re-use my work invested on code already Feb 27 06:21:54 that rules android and iphone out Feb 27 06:22:02 webos too Feb 27 06:22:09 i tried webos Feb 27 06:22:21 n900 so far is a pretty shitty phone - but beter than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick Feb 27 06:22:29 i much prefer my prototype here on my desk Feb 27 06:22:30 ugh Feb 27 06:22:30 :) Feb 27 06:22:35 raster: lol Feb 27 06:23:00 i had some palm pre delivered - broken keyboards, unable to activate, lock ups Feb 27 06:23:10 frustrating Feb 27 06:23:35 guess i'm backing myself into a corner Feb 27 06:23:41 anyone if the password manager package is compatible with keepass database? Feb 27 06:23:55 work pays for an iphone, can't stand it Feb 27 06:24:01 mmgcs: hahahahaha Feb 27 06:24:04 i'm wioth u Feb 27 06:24:07 tho i never had an iphone Feb 27 06:24:09 bought one Feb 27 06:24:11 or owned one Feb 27 06:24:13 i refuse to Feb 27 06:24:18 have a blackberry tour, slow and sluggish Feb 27 06:24:21 1. i just tend to avoid doing what the sheep do Feb 27 06:24:30 2. apple isnt developer friendly Feb 27 06:24:38 tried palm, couldn't get a device delivered that worked Feb 27 06:24:53 have a friend who made some cash on android game dev Feb 27 06:25:05 3. my own software would violate the iphone dev rules anyway as it includes interpreters and ways of running logic - so i'm screwwed even if i accept all the other arsetastic restrictions Feb 27 06:25:27 android is the "rewrite it in our flavor of java and you're ok" Feb 27 06:25:42 hooray - and lets not have a jit while we're at it shall we>? Feb 27 06:25:45 not doing android for me Feb 27 06:25:47 (have they added a jit now?) Feb 27 06:25:54 lol Feb 27 06:26:01 screwed iof i'm rewrtigin in java (and their native sdk stuff is useless) Feb 27 06:26:07 as such i like linux Feb 27 06:26:07 my wife telephoned with a friend some time ago, that was like "We have a n900 now, just watched a movie on TV played back on its AVout" .. "Oh iphone cant do that?, well with only 4GB movies make no sense anyways" .... "Oh i am sorry to hear that you forgotten to cancel your contract" Feb 27 06:26:17 its comfy - its good. it works. so - my phone needs to be it too Feb 27 06:26:24 Is there a maemo vm that I can demo using Maemo on my desktop? Feb 27 06:26:26 me too, long time gentoo dabbler Feb 27 06:27:02 rlp10: no. not full vm. just sdk+scratchbox qemu+xephyr etc. Feb 27 06:27:30 mmgcs: well i'm happy. i get paid by samsung to work on e + their new products... Feb 27 06:27:31 so, long story short, i guess there is no way i can test my exchange with the emulator Feb 27 06:27:33 so it's all good Feb 27 06:27:46 hehe nokia should setup a cluster of n900 and export then via vnc Feb 27 06:27:52 raster: sounds like a good gig :) Feb 27 06:27:52 the os is becoming just what i want.. mostly because i kick people there whenever i find things i dont like Feb 27 06:28:03 cehteh: that would be cool Feb 27 06:28:20 raster: sorry to be dumb, but what's a scratchbox? Feb 27 06:28:41 environment for crosscompiling with less pain Feb 27 06:28:54 a rectangular scrotum? kidding! Feb 27 06:29:07 mmgcs: lol Feb 27 06:29:07 some scripts, chroots, qemu, gcc an stuff Feb 27 06:29:29 cehteh: And then you can run under qemu? Feb 27 06:29:39 it starts qemu transparently Feb 27 06:30:12 cehteh: And is the qemu just the app, or is it the whole maemo os? Feb 27 06:30:19 * cehteh recently tried to put the sdk (armel) in a chroot on the device .. which failed because the crappy FAT fs cant handle symlinks Feb 27 06:30:24 time to reformat Feb 27 06:30:44 rlp10: what he said :) Feb 27 06:30:53 qemu is a emulator .. Feb 27 06:31:21 bit like vmware but real emulator so you can emulate ARM hardware on a x86 Feb 27 06:31:33 but lacks all the special stuff of the n900 of course Feb 27 06:31:49 ok, thanks guys for your patience Feb 27 06:32:10 I've dabbled in development, and am making decision whether or not to purchase a n900 Feb 27 06:32:39 hey .. if any of you guys is bored, how about stracing the camera app and write a LD_PRELOAD lib which overrides the FAT filesystem check? Feb 27 06:32:46 (probably *not*) Feb 27 06:32:48 * luke-jr runs Feb 27 06:35:04 cehteh: sounds like fun Feb 27 06:35:23 cehteh: lol @ "my wife telephoned ..." ;) Feb 27 06:35:48 Anyone hooked a n900 up to a projector? Feb 27 06:36:02 duh, why a projector? Feb 27 06:36:10 with av out .. should work Feb 27 06:36:15 rlp10: i did, at work. Feb 27 06:36:19 but the quality is not that good Feb 27 06:36:35 I know. It's not even good on my 33' Feb 27 06:36:49 rlp10: it's only composite Feb 27 06:37:09 Ah, thanks for the feedback Feb 27 06:37:23 is the av out just always a clone of the screen or has it its own graphic sytem .. meaning would dualscreen be possible? :) Feb 27 06:37:26 DocScrutinizer: why they didnt include an hdmi breakout - i dont know Feb 27 06:37:32 perfectly possible Feb 27 06:37:40 raster: costs .. :) Feb 27 06:37:44 raster: connector space would be a bit odd Feb 27 06:37:52 sshfs isn't that awesome - when your connection stalls :-( Feb 27 06:38:01 lucent: breakout - not an actual hdmi port... Feb 27 06:38:05 DocScrutinizer: -o reconnect Feb 27 06:38:23 cehteh: hmm, thanks Feb 27 06:38:25 but sshfs has a lot not so awesome things .. mostly fuse limitations Feb 27 06:39:02 still useable enough Feb 27 06:39:03 well, first of all even shell tab filename completion stalls the whole process Feb 27 06:39:07 DocScrutinizer: well, movies look quite well Feb 27 06:39:16 bigbrovar: if you get keepassx, it works... I use keepassx on N900 from maemo-devel Feb 27 06:39:46 arachnist: depends on your expectations, I guess Feb 27 06:40:25 DocScrutinizer: well, i haven't seen any other phone connected to a projector Feb 27 06:40:32 I'm one of the guys that hate DVB-T, due to the inferior abysmal quality Feb 27 06:41:01 arachnist: Apple stuff will show on external display Feb 27 06:41:11 iPod, iPhone... Feb 27 06:41:12 DocScrutinizer: i am bit proud bout the vpn and xchat setup i have now ... lots of fiddleing .. but it works awesomely .. xchat parallel on n900 and laptop .. seamless switching between networks .. the default configs didnt do that Feb 27 06:41:15 lucent: naa am a chicken I still to only extra repo.. N900 is my only phone now (smart or dumb) I hope to it to the edge once I get the N97 mini which I then use as a smartphone Feb 27 06:41:53 btw where are you located will you be at CLT (Chemnizer LinuxTage)? Feb 27 06:41:56 * RST38h yawns and asks what is going on Feb 27 06:42:00 bigbrovar: I understand, let me tell you though that keepassx is *working* on N900. There is a problem, but it is only a visual issue, the height of text field widgets is too small for the font height Feb 27 06:42:01 cehteh: if only it can be more finger friendly.. xchat needs more freemantlization Feb 27 06:42:04 lucent: yes. but i haven't seen any phone actually connected to a projector. as in, being there, seeing it connected and not on the internet Feb 27 06:42:22 arachnist: oh. I beta tested the Microvision SHOWWX Feb 27 06:42:22 cehteh: dunno Feb 27 06:42:24 bigbrovar: ack .. but nag someone else, i did my xchat job :) Feb 27 06:42:36 it works with Apple iPod connector and projects full motion video Feb 27 06:42:54 there's also an option for RCA style composite breakout Feb 27 06:42:59 next problem i have is the camera and fat ... Feb 27 06:43:04 cehteh: I am not naging just stating my experience :) Feb 27 06:43:17 * raster shakes his head Feb 27 06:43:21 bigbrovar: i configured it reasonable useable for the n900 Feb 27 06:43:29 composite out is worse quality than the hvga screen.. Feb 27 06:43:34 why someone would use it.. beats me Feb 27 06:43:40 letalone wvga Feb 27 06:43:50 (composite compared to wvga) Feb 27 06:43:57 cehteh: am sure lots of people appreciate you for it. :) Feb 27 06:44:12 should have stuck in an hdmi framer ala beagleboard Feb 27 06:44:35 raster: yes... and host USB Feb 27 06:44:44 we can't have everything. Feb 27 06:44:55 yes you can damnit! Feb 27 06:44:56 :) Feb 27 06:45:00 raster: cvbs *could* be good quality Feb 27 06:45:03 raster: considering the use cases (watching your own movies by hacking the hotel TV) composite is the best (most compatible) solution Feb 27 06:45:05 * raster presses the everything buttopn Feb 27 06:45:12 quality sux of course Feb 27 06:45:42 cehteh: more thinking that u can use your device as a pc replacement.. as long as u can find a usb hub for kbd+mouse to plug in and a screen with hdmi Feb 27 06:45:43 :) Feb 27 06:46:14 raster: someone did that already with bluetooth kb/mouse/tv ... Feb 27 06:46:20 cehteh: It looks like the image is contantly being copied to the TV display buffer about 4-5 times a second Feb 27 06:46:30 cehteh: Watching movies this way is kinda awkward Feb 27 06:46:33 cehteh: then all u need is proper display breakout :) Feb 27 06:46:53 RST38h: ack Feb 27 06:47:00 RST38h: definately not .. we watched movies on it .. that wroks Feb 27 06:47:11 raster: displayport? Feb 27 06:47:30 cehteh: that'd do too.. tho too "unsupported" atm Feb 27 06:47:35 oh it works but I would not watc a movie with it Feb 27 06:47:39 too new Feb 27 06:47:51 RST38h: i mean with reasonable framerate Feb 27 06:48:10 little stutter .. but not 4-5 fps Feb 27 06:48:27 raster: thre are cheap adapters Feb 27 06:48:39 look at moving ibjects, cars, trains Feb 27 06:48:46 anyways .. phones with building projectors will come .. Feb 27 06:48:48 DocScrutinizer: ure.. tho u end up with adaptors all over i guess Feb 27 06:48:52 you will see that they move in little steps Feb 27 06:49:19 somethng that would break out hdmi (dvi - or whatever some digitial video signal) and do it with a minimal plug/connector Feb 27 06:49:46 RST38h: and as movies are about movement, I'd rather not watch *any* video on N900 probably Feb 27 06:50:07 yes, I am afraid it is pretty nasty :( Feb 27 06:50:18 static images work ok though Feb 27 06:50:25 yep Feb 27 06:50:27 hmm why not Feb 27 06:50:31 gaming is even worse than video Feb 27 06:50:36 too much lag Feb 27 06:50:37 except for red bleeding Feb 27 06:50:40 a dvd-quality movie shoul dbe able to be plaid back with no problems Feb 27 06:50:51 played Feb 27 06:50:53 DocScrut: I see no red bleeding here, got an LCD panel Feb 27 06:51:10 * thresh waves Feb 27 06:51:14 raster: See above about image being contantly copied to a separate TV screen buffer Feb 27 06:51:14 * cehteh needs better encoding options for recoding to the n900 .. tablet encode didnt do well Feb 27 06:51:16 moo, thresh Feb 27 06:51:30 RST38h: i think its not like that Feb 27 06:51:34 cehteh: Why do you need to recode for n900? Works fine without recoding Feb 27 06:51:48 RST38h: depends on the input Feb 27 06:51:58 not dvd i mean .. others Feb 27 06:52:30 hmm who sets $PATH...rt oof i mean on the screen of the n900 itself Feb 27 06:52:35 copying to a tv out buffer is just silly Feb 27 06:52:41 that shouldnt need to be done Feb 27 06:52:55 i suspect someone took the lazy way out Feb 27 06:52:58 thresh: Any idea what is with all these people requested authorization to see your ICQ status? Feb 27 06:53:15 RST38h: LCD here as well (33' TV) - but I guess it depends a lot on the actual analog input circuit (impedance etc) Feb 27 06:53:17 thresh: Seem to be real humans, never message Feb 27 06:54:05 RST38h: uhm, icq.com/%N is not working, so probably their stupid clients are trying to authorize? Feb 27 06:54:18 IIRC my kopete also failed miserably to add a user a couple of days ago Feb 27 06:54:26 thresh: Ah, that's what it is... Feb 27 06:55:31 EEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWww Feb 27 06:55:34 horribly slow Feb 27 06:55:37 ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww Feb 27 06:55:48 do we need to know that? Feb 27 06:55:51 didnt nokia get texture-from-pixmap working right with gl apps too>? Feb 27 06:56:18 arfe they doing software copies of the gl front buffer to the texture? Feb 27 06:56:31 raster: see? :-P Feb 27 06:57:06 ooh dear Feb 27 06:57:09 no bgra extension? Feb 27 06:57:19 boooooo! Feb 27 06:57:28 mhm .. playing video mounted over sshfs :P Feb 27 06:57:58 ooooh rendering artifacts Feb 27 06:58:00 * RST38h is more interested by the fact that tv and lcd buffers seem to be separate Feb 27 06:58:01 well, modern TV you can stream your movie via BT Feb 27 06:58:23 raster: that too, yes :-( Feb 27 06:58:25 maybe mafw can be told to only show images in the tv buffer? Feb 27 06:58:36 hahahah Feb 27 06:58:40 oooh bugs bugs bugs Feb 27 06:59:10 oooh it doesnt render the app tile or close button Feb 27 06:59:42 RST38h: I heard that should be possible Feb 27 06:59:53 cehteh: i tend to play 720p videos over sshfs from my box at home when i'm at work on a night shift Feb 27 07:01:25 ooooooh compositor is causing that rendering bug Feb 27 07:01:25 aha Feb 27 07:01:51 duh! Feb 27 07:02:11 raster: you're still with us? Feb 27 07:02:43 hmm actually no it isnt Feb 27 07:02:48 i correct myself Feb 27 07:02:52 its something else Feb 27 07:02:52 :) Feb 27 07:03:14 N900 AV that is? Feb 27 07:03:29 av? Feb 27 07:03:43 av connector, cvbs, composite Feb 27 07:03:47 oh nono Feb 27 07:03:53 not talking about that Feb 27 07:08:51 actual rendering on the n900 Feb 27 07:09:04 i managed to miracrulously due to luck/persistence unbrick my n900 Feb 27 07:09:22 i've tried for the 5th time to get an sdk that works - finally with enough screwign around i can compile things.. and link to gl libs Feb 27 07:09:25 wooooow Feb 27 07:09:27 i doubt it was bricked Feb 27 07:09:49 ljp: it was bricked Feb 27 07:10:03 turn on - no response by orange light Feb 27 07:10:05 raster knows to brick things ;-P Feb 27 07:10:08 no usb device appears on host Feb 27 07:10:12 nothing Feb 27 07:10:13 nada Feb 27 07:10:25 leave it plugged in for hourse or days - same result Feb 27 07:10:31 plug, unplug, plug, unplug - same result Feb 27 07:11:00 shiiit, how did you manage to resurrect it? Feb 27 07:11:05 eventually due to some luck i know not why.. it did turn on and presented a sub device Feb 27 07:11:07 i started flashing Feb 27 07:11:11 70% thru - flash failed Feb 27 07:11:15 back to step 1 Feb 27 07:11:18 no life\ Feb 27 07:11:20 orange light Feb 27 07:11:21 etc. Feb 27 07:11:28 i just perservered and tried again Feb 27 07:11:34 and for some reason now - it booted Feb 27 07:11:37 then it wasnt bricked :) Feb 27 07:11:41 so i flashed it - this time worked Feb 27 07:11:50 ljp: thats bricked enough for me Feb 27 07:11:51 :) Feb 27 07:12:03 no bootloader Feb 27 07:12:04 no life Feb 27 07:12:05 nothng works Feb 27 07:12:13 no output beyond an orange light Feb 27 07:12:13 raster: I really think you got a borked sample Feb 27 07:12:16 i would suspect a dead battery is all :) Feb 27 07:12:23 (when plugged into usb - either wallcharger or pc) Feb 27 07:12:39 ljp: charging did nothing Feb 27 07:12:50 leav it overnight? Feb 27 07:12:57 ljp: left it for days Feb 27 07:13:00 overnight Feb 27 07:13:01 all day Feb 27 07:13:03 multiple days Feb 27 07:13:10 not because it's been 'bricked' but more because of all the other things you told me Feb 27 07:13:13 orange light comes on indicating it's detected current on usb Feb 27 07:13:13 they call that 'trickle' charging :) Feb 27 07:13:17 so it should atkleast trickyl charge Feb 27 07:13:20 yes Feb 27 07:13:22 but it didnt Feb 27 07:13:50 sounds like a certain neo problem too Feb 27 07:14:00 you got a quirky one it seems Feb 27 07:14:00 i know about dead bats and trickle charging :) i've been thru the om wringer :) Feb 27 07:14:09 DangerMaus: i definitely did Feb 27 07:14:18 lol Feb 27 07:14:27 i've been adding mameo-extras to the apt soruces and it seems a whole bunch of os updates have happened Feb 27 07:14:40 the extras has yet more updates it seems Feb 27 07:14:42 anyway Feb 27 07:14:47 its now on and working Feb 27 07:14:52 plugged in :) Feb 27 07:14:57 awesome Feb 27 07:15:07 just built efl for it Feb 27 07:15:10 testing gl engine Feb 27 07:15:18 n900/maemo opengl-0es libs have.. bugs... Feb 27 07:15:22 i'm tickling them Feb 27 07:15:29 compositor seems to have bugs Feb 27 07:15:39 doesnt render title and close button for expedite Feb 27 07:16:02 well not unless i go away from window and come back eg hit top-left for app chooser) Feb 27 07:16:08 software rendering works. Feb 27 07:16:18 raster - i think you mean tackling... i don't think you tickle these types of bugs Feb 27 07:16:37 haha Feb 27 07:16:46 Termana_n810: no.. i just bitch. :) as gl-es is a closed binary blob.. thats all i will do :) Feb 27 07:28:03 raster - most embedded GPU drivers are. i don't think i've really seen one that was open. i think openmoko's Glamo one is though. And the SmartQ one is err... open-ish (leaked) Feb 27 07:28:32 oh, the OMAP2420 one is open for the driver Feb 27 07:29:33 Termana_n810: i know all of those Feb 27 07:29:49 the glamo was a very 1/4 arsed gpu,. gl-es1.1 with absolute minimal features Feb 27 07:29:59 couldnt even render att he res the gfx unit can drive Feb 27 07:30:16 the omap2 is an mbx - not open either. :) Feb 27 07:30:53 the smartq5 is the s3c6410 - yes, leaked, but no real implementations that work in the open. i have a fully working driver for it thats solid and does all the things - but thats an in-house effort. Feb 27 07:31:09 and my other prototypes here are also sgx.. but driver src is within my grasp and ability to fix up :) Feb 27 07:31:17 the n900 one.. is not Feb 27 07:32:22 raster: if it's in-house, could you release it? <.< Feb 27 07:32:31 no Feb 27 07:32:36 :( Feb 27 07:32:41 signed some nasty NDAs, right? Feb 27 07:32:55 u dont get these babies without them Feb 27 07:33:09 even if i didnt have nda's... DONT BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU! Feb 27 07:33:10 right Feb 27 07:33:10 :) Feb 27 07:33:24 well, obviously Samsung isn't attacking whoever leaked the docs...? :P Feb 27 07:33:53 and that's flat out Samsung IP Feb 27 07:33:58 one thing leaking specsheets Feb 27 07:34:06 another leaking samsung copyright code that is the driver Feb 27 07:34:12 ... Feb 27 07:34:12 or other things udner nda etc. etc. Feb 27 07:34:15 not going to do it Feb 27 07:34:21 it 1. violates nda Feb 27 07:34:21 how is it Samsung copyright code if it's in-house?? Feb 27 07:34:28 2. violates a level of trust put in me Feb 27 07:34:34 3. vbites the hand that feed m3 Feb 27 07:34:35 me Feb 27 07:34:41 err bites Feb 27 07:35:00 luke-jr: the s3x6410 driver is samsugnin-house driver Feb 27 07:35:08 well in-house to 1 division - samsung is a massive place Feb 27 07:35:18 dont think of it as 1 company Feb 27 07:35:19 oh Feb 27 07:35:23 think of it as 30 companies Feb 27 07:35:31 I thought you meant it was in-house for your company :p Feb 27 07:35:40 each group will jealously guard their own code and work and products, etc. Feb 27 07:35:56 my company is ... me :) Feb 27 07:36:24 most of big companies are actually a few smaller companies these days, sharing little more than brand name Feb 27 07:36:40 yeah Feb 27 07:38:02 bank of raster :-) Feb 27 07:40:25 raster: so you'll create a few images/videos to make the omap gfx go booom? Feb 27 07:40:41 fixing some other code first Feb 27 07:40:47 but gl seems to have... issues Feb 27 07:40:53 spee dis the first one i notice Feb 27 07:41:07 hi al Feb 27 07:41:12 then just rendering bugs Feb 27 07:41:15 missing stuff Feb 27 07:41:17 no bgra extn Feb 27 07:41:29 i think the sgx530 should handle bgra texture.. no? Feb 27 07:41:31 textures Feb 27 07:41:57 no idea what's bgra Feb 27 07:42:05 following to the instructions on the wiki for freeing up space for the latest Fremantle upgrae arenot that useful Feb 27 07:42:26 I've everything there and nothing helped, plus I had no conflicting packages Feb 27 07:42:38 I've now manualy apt-get dist-upgraded Feb 27 07:42:56 should I just restart the machine now ? Feb 27 07:43:28 you should probably reflash Feb 27 07:43:53 how do I know if the reflashing worked like it does when OTA upgrade happes? Feb 27 07:44:00 or does it not happen by iutself from apt ? :\|) Feb 27 07:44:03 heard apt-get dist-upgrade is... deprecated Feb 27 07:44:08 heh Feb 27 07:44:13 nice that it is mentioned as a solution Feb 27 07:44:25 and my upgrade bug was close since "the error message is apparent" Feb 27 07:44:35 I am a *tad* disappointment Feb 27 07:44:52 apt-get is deprecated :D Feb 27 07:45:32 ;) Feb 27 07:45:37 so what'snow ? Feb 27 07:45:44 aptitude Feb 27 07:46:11 tar :-) Feb 27 07:46:32 luke-jr: apt-get can now do mostly everthing aptitude does, specifically regarding dependency resolution, mvo/Keybuk ported most of it from aptitude to apt-get Feb 27 07:46:50 How do I make my device show the latest PR update? Feb 27 07:46:58 sivang: how about recording user-selected packages properly? Feb 27 07:47:11 luke-jr: right, well, not yet:) Feb 27 07:47:11 sivang: in any case, there is no need for apt anymore :) Feb 27 07:47:31 sivang: actually doing a backup, then flashing a clean new system might be what you should do Feb 27 07:47:39 I am afraid to install aptitude so my remaining space on rootfs will not vanishagain Feb 27 07:48:13 DocScrutinizer: if this is the solution, then we need to proactively prevent from users installing anything from extras. Feb 27 07:48:36 huh? why hat? Feb 27 07:48:41 that* Feb 27 07:49:06 DocScrutinizer: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9089https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9089 Feb 27 07:49:09 Bug 9089: Upgrading Maemo itself (nokia official recommended upgrade) failed with "no enough space" on target device. Feb 27 07:49:17 ah, nice stupid LG touchpad Feb 27 07:49:29 what is going on wth synaptic touchpads these days? they have all gone mad. Feb 27 07:49:55 hmm, so what does that tell me, beyond what we discussed already? Feb 27 07:50:44 DocScrutinizer: right, so if we want to have an OS that is supposed to reach *users* , not *power users* or hackers, this needs to be solved automatically Feb 27 07:51:03 but I gues that is something for MeeGo already.... Feb 27 07:51:09 oh well Feb 27 07:51:18 * sivang attempt a reboot of the machine Feb 27 07:51:48 sivang: if you fill your rootfs with apps, and then install new versions which all are a few bits larger... what can HAM do? Feb 27 07:52:03 DocScrutinizer: why areapps installed to rootfs the first place? Feb 27 07:52:16 a good point Feb 27 07:52:27 ~optification Feb 27 07:52:29 somebody said optification was a botch to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Free_up_rootfs_space Feb 27 07:52:55 seems like I hae a new splash screen and the ugrade and working nice Feb 27 07:52:55 nevertheless /var and libs also tend to grow on each upgrade Feb 27 07:52:58 ... note that just disabling all non-nokia repos often helps Feb 27 07:53:06 cehteh: didn't help here Feb 27 07:53:15 aha Feb 27 07:53:17 expedite bug Feb 27 07:53:18 worked for me twice .. Feb 27 07:53:18 gaaaah Feb 27 07:53:28 peolpe chaning code to non-premul colors.. grrr Feb 27 07:53:35 well this partitioning is really fucked beyond repair Feb 27 07:53:37 very nice Feb 27 07:54:12 despite the my frustration, apt-get dist-upgrade did the job nicely. Feb 27 07:54:23 firmware update success Feb 27 07:55:06 so is there like an optification ongoing task ? Feb 27 07:55:17 Hi, i'd like to report that my adblock plus does not work - it does not block any ads, and when i mouseover the flash plugins, no "block" shows there Feb 27 07:55:19 are there more packags left that need optification ? Feb 27 07:55:54 sivang: all in -devel I guess Feb 27 07:56:02 mhm which is the main cam /dev/video0 or /dev/video1? Feb 27 07:56:09 cehteh: video0 Feb 27 07:56:13 thanks Feb 27 07:56:20 DocScrutinizer: okay then Feb 27 07:56:35 video0 here was the front facing cam, not the main one Feb 27 07:56:42 at least last time i checked Feb 27 07:56:44 hm Feb 27 07:57:20 anybody has an LG T380 laptop around ? Feb 27 07:57:35 arachnist: main cam here Feb 27 07:57:42 I wan't to install Ubuntu, but not sure with will happen splashtop Feb 27 07:57:46 or Smart ON Feb 27 07:57:50 as LG call it. Feb 27 07:58:11 (this is a small linux distro that boots in les then 2 secs allowing to web IM and music play) Feb 27 07:59:07 the installation used to screw up thinpad's Access IBM, Feb 27 07:59:12 but it was never useful ;) Feb 27 07:59:17 whyyy dont you listen to me, adblock?? :( Feb 27 07:59:41 how do u ask for compositor to turn off? Feb 27 07:59:44 ~kill adblock Feb 27 07:59:46 * infobot shoots a super-inverse electron gun at adblock Feb 27 07:59:48 or is it off normally? Feb 27 08:00:02 anywa , off to get some breakfast Feb 27 08:00:03 DocScrutinizer: thanks, it deserved it Feb 27 08:00:06 raster: if *you* don't know Feb 27 08:00:06 say cheese! Feb 27 08:00:17 emental. Feb 27 08:00:26 DocScrutinizer: its a maemo/holidon thing.. so.. i dont know :) Feb 27 08:00:39 i understand that their compositor can turn itself off or on Feb 27 08:01:08 less /home/user/MyDocs/camtrace ... thanks :) Feb 27 08:01:18 raster: I don't even understand where to find docs *if* there were any Feb 27 08:03:46 google doesnt turn up much Feb 27 08:03:47 :( Feb 27 08:04:24 raster: that's the beauty of "the driver API is the doc, you don't need schem", just one level higher Feb 27 08:05:32 no Feb 27 08:05:45 i'd be happy with a doc that tells me Feb 27 08:05:51 i bet its some proptertyy or x client message Feb 27 08:05:54 just need to know which one Feb 27 08:07:08 i read somewhere on t.m.o about this .. when going fullscreen you set some hint to turn compositing off Feb 27 08:07:19 yeah Feb 27 08:07:22 just need to know what it is Feb 27 08:07:23 raster: look at hldon-desktop and clutter source Feb 27 08:07:26 i'd like it off even when not fs Feb 27 08:07:35 Stskeeps: source! baaaah! Feb 27 08:07:36 hrm... I have a bookmark that for whatever reason won't show up in the add bookmark list (when adding one to the desktop), anyone seen that? Feb 27 08:08:02 raster: how shall that work? the other elements on the screen are composited Feb 27 08:08:18 i mean yes it might work .. but i doubt its supported Feb 27 08:08:30 Stskeeps: http://maemo.gitorious.org/fremantle-hildon-desktop ? Feb 27 08:09:24 cehteh: no reason it couldnt... u';d lose some alpha in situations Feb 27 08:09:27 anyway Feb 27 08:09:52 yes thinking about the statusbar/clock and so on .. maybe these are rendered directly Feb 27 08:10:27 but anything else, icons, windows, widgets are composited as it looks Feb 27 08:10:48 cehteh: well looking at a regular window being up Feb 27 08:10:53 there is no compositing here Feb 27 08:10:58 or doesnt need to be in the nroma, case Feb 27 08:11:07 theres the bar at the top with nothng overlapping the window itself Feb 27 08:11:13 window smaller Feb 27 08:11:21 it might still be composited (at least so i thought) Feb 27 08:11:46 I give up, making thread on tmo Feb 27 08:11:52 well you are the graphics programmer ... i dont know anything :P Feb 27 08:12:35 cehteh: wel i'm benchmarkign.. so i'd like for the compositor not to be adding overhead Feb 27 08:12:53 the canonical way is do go fullscreen for that Feb 27 08:12:56 but all in all i can compare appls and apples... as i have another device that does composite too Feb 27 08:13:00 LEAVE Feb 27 08:13:19 cehteh: netwm fulscreen? Feb 27 08:13:28 whatevr :) Feb 27 08:13:41 well.. i'd hope so Feb 27 08:13:47 its so a small screen :] Feb 27 08:15:02 * cehteh tries to take a nap Feb 27 08:15:47 ooh dear n900 definitely suffers Feb 27 08:16:01 apples to apples comparison Feb 27 08:16:05 well as close as it gets Feb 27 08:16:13 (n900 vs my toy here) Feb 27 08:16:15 both compositing Feb 27 08:16:19 both using gl-es Feb 27 08:16:23 both running smae benchmark Feb 27 08:16:30 both with same resolutions creen Feb 27 08:16:52 both with wm/desktop adding "bars" aroudn app not allowing it the complete screen Feb 27 08:17:12 nm900 is about 1/2 to 1/3 the speed Feb 27 08:17:21 software rendering benchmark Feb 27 08:21:50 god damned thats piss poor Feb 27 08:22:45 so odds are I'll not need to worry about crazy bouncing hopping spinning icons all over the place for a few more month - good Feb 27 08:23:04 hehehe Feb 27 08:26:54 let me just let this baby run to completion Feb 27 08:27:52 lol... Feb 27 08:28:45 just randomly heard a car drive by, revving the engine, with "I love rock'n'roll" blasting, then squeaking tyres, and the sound of a metal bending and glass breaking Feb 27 08:29:00 From down the street "I'm all right, I'm all right" Feb 27 08:29:51 hmmm Feb 27 08:29:55 solid images borked Feb 27 08:30:04 i wonder why... Feb 27 08:32:09 DocScrutinizer: 152% faster on average Feb 27 08:32:15 (than n900) Feb 27 08:32:38 you doped it :-D Feb 27 08:33:47 raster: well I prefer 0clock over gfx grunt all days Feb 27 08:34:05 DocScrutinizer: u have 0xlock on n900 Feb 27 08:34:09 0clock Feb 27 08:34:19 actually i hope to have that too... i hear its being worked on Feb 27 08:34:21 that's what I say Feb 27 08:34:24 crashanddie, they wont be doing that outside youe window for a while Feb 27 08:34:42 not on Ur proto's CPU Feb 27 08:34:52 aiui Feb 27 08:35:27 DocScrutinizer: zeroclock for my proto - yes. being worked on Feb 27 08:35:44 it already has cpufreq all working mostly happily Feb 27 08:36:00 don't see how that SoC is going to implement 0clock Feb 27 08:36:31 yeah, cpufreq. But real 0clock is a different game Feb 27 08:37:37 i know Feb 27 08:37:42 i was told they can do it Feb 27 08:37:44 and its on their plans Feb 27 08:37:58 even if u dont do 0 clokc Feb 27 08:38:02 if u go down to- like 1mhz Feb 27 08:38:14 or something that is so low in power usage its virtually the same Feb 27 08:38:24 yep, 1MHz qite possible Feb 27 08:38:55 so i cna run for 10 days - instead of 11 if u drop to 1mhz vs zero clock Feb 27 08:38:59 at that point... its didums Feb 27 08:39:34 whatever gets u in that ballpark Feb 27 08:39:40 ie u can run without actually suspending Feb 27 08:39:42 I'd like to see 10 days with SIP Feb 27 08:39:53 and use about the same power as suspending Feb 27 08:40:00 well with wifi off, 3g off etc. Feb 27 08:40:02 itd be doable Feb 27 08:40:18 then you can suspend as well Feb 27 08:40:36 sure Feb 27 08:40:40 as with all IF down, there's actually very few to process Feb 27 08:41:52 well let's see how that samsung die performs, once you got a real system Feb 27 08:49:50 what was the reflow shortcut for microb again? Feb 27 08:58:08 ctrl-foo Feb 27 08:58:09 ? Feb 27 08:58:16 R? Feb 27 08:58:25 O? Feb 27 08:58:34 I it seems Feb 27 08:59:23 DocScrutinizer: it is a real system actually - much like the freerunenr + debug board on the ribbon cable Feb 27 08:59:26 just no ribbon cabole Feb 27 08:59:38 pcb is actually extended out the side with debug attachments on Feb 27 08:59:54 yeah Feb 27 09:00:41 seen a GTA01 on a debug yigg pcb in your office in TPE Feb 27 09:00:53 probably looked somewhat similar Feb 27 09:00:59 another example i guess Feb 27 09:01:00 yeah Feb 27 09:01:08 just here its all made as 1 pcb Feb 27 09:01:21 there are versions without the thing out the side - all looking production-like :) Feb 27 09:02:35 when your next flight goes over D, drop one into my garden :-) Feb 27 09:02:46 hahahahah Feb 27 09:03:47 candybar-bomber :-D Feb 27 09:18:39 hey Feb 27 09:18:45 is there a bug report about media player widget unpauseing paused music after a call? Feb 27 09:22:04 hi Feb 27 09:38:52 what is the best way to play videos on the n900 which are larger than the n900 screen? Feb 27 09:39:08 mplayer -vo x11 -zoom is kind of slow ;) Feb 27 09:40:52 for one, there is no avoiding decoding the whole video area anyway, so I'm not sure how much better can be done Feb 27 09:41:01 but I hope better than what -vo x11 does anyway :) Feb 27 09:45:09 Mobile dev camp today, but the Qt talk there is very basic "what is Qt"... so had to pull out my laptop Feb 27 09:49:53 good. I don't feel bad anymore for missing the train to helsinki :) Feb 27 10:02:46 lucas: it's generally a good idea to use -vo xv instead of -vo x11 on a regular pc, so probably also on the n900... Feb 27 10:03:20 that'll at least offload the scaling to the gpu Feb 27 10:06:59 using the builtin gstreamer stuff will also offload the decoding to the dsp Feb 27 10:12:30 villager: yes, but gstreamer apparently can't play the video I'm interested in, and I don't know how to debug it Feb 27 10:14:00 lucas: ok... well, if you have to use mplayer, then like I said, try to at least use xv, not x11 Feb 27 10:22:56 apparently xv doesn't work if size(images from video) > size(screen) Feb 27 10:28:48 I doubt you'll be able to sanely play videos bigger than screen on n900 :) Feb 27 10:29:32 lucas: hmm, interesting Feb 27 10:34:58 ShadowJK: what else is the composite out for? Feb 27 10:37:57 apparently I'm hit by https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8913 Feb 27 10:37:58 Bug 8913: Media Player can't play "XviD ISO MPEG-4" Feb 27 10:43:25 so, if I want to re-encode the video so that I can play it on the n900, what would be appropriate parameters? Feb 27 10:44:21 ah, found http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Video_Encoding Feb 27 10:45:25 The composite hardly even does 800x480 :) Feb 27 10:45:42 800x480 h264 baseline 3.0 Feb 27 10:45:51 or something like that iirc Feb 27 10:46:44 ShadowJK: but 32>3.5 Feb 27 10:53:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxp4TjAkSL8 Feb 27 10:53:17 oops ENOCHAN Feb 27 10:57:24 doesnt that hurt? Feb 27 10:58:03 i think that bike has a suspension, plus his saddle has some too Feb 27 10:58:45 although i ocasionally get me kicked straight there on my 200mm susp bike :( Feb 27 10:58:58 should land on the pedals Feb 27 10:59:06 with feet on pedals Feb 27 10:59:10 avoid the crotch slap Feb 27 10:59:38 this usually happens when the slope is too steep and i'm almost riding on my rear wheel Feb 27 11:25:57 heya all Feb 27 11:26:03 lo wazdie Feb 27 11:33:07 thresh: something tells me he won't have many kids Feb 27 11:34:15 * Aranel needs some Photoshop assistance =) (for 1 logo and 2 buttons, not much) Feb 27 11:34:42 hi, can anyone point me at a n900 widget example preferably in python ? Feb 27 11:34:43 sal Feb 27 11:34:57 clujeni sunt Feb 27 11:37:38 i found one but it imports hildondesktop which does not exist on my n900 :/ Feb 27 11:38:31 pretty sure you gonna need hildondesktop to do a widget Feb 27 11:39:15 hum i was wondering that, just would of expected it to be included by default on the n900 for other widgets Feb 27 11:39:24 but perhaps there all written in C Feb 27 11:42:32 oly, python-hildondesktop pkg exists afaik Feb 27 11:44:29 Stskeeps, so it does installing now :) Feb 27 11:46:57 why does maemo only support ubuntu , why not fedora Feb 27 11:47:38 dont forget windows and macos Feb 27 11:47:54 and solaris, *bsd Feb 27 11:48:57 if it works on ubuntu surely it can work on others if some one works on it ? Feb 27 11:49:23 perhaps theres not enough demand yet Feb 27 11:50:02 and there is the virtual image Feb 27 11:50:17 hello Feb 27 11:50:29 Yeah it's just easier to use the image then to install it on fedora Feb 27 11:50:33 could someone confirm Bug 9307 Feb 27 11:50:34 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9307 Media player widget plays paused music after call Feb 27 12:04:26 What app do you prefer for storing passwords safely? Feb 27 12:04:45 I've tried a couple and they seem quite... quirky. or overcomplicated Feb 27 12:40:16 moo Feb 27 12:41:58 oom Feb 27 12:42:09 nom nom nom Feb 27 12:42:25 Yay! Feb 27 12:42:58 * arachnist 's description of java memory usage Feb 27 12:44:42 * Arif_ installs java on arachnist's N900 Feb 27 12:52:48 how do i debug fmms? Feb 27 12:53:05 somehow it doesnt download mms i just received Feb 27 12:53:07 give frals lots of money to take the bugs out? Feb 27 12:53:41 that is an option indeed! Feb 27 12:57:56 hello! Feb 27 12:59:30 lo FatalSaint Feb 27 13:00:02 stop using MMS'es! Feb 27 13:00:26 No one ever sent me an MMS ={ Feb 27 13:00:47 me neither Feb 27 13:00:59 those things cost €0,50 here Feb 27 13:01:07 :D Feb 27 13:01:36 I'd rather use my 3G connection to communicate ;D Feb 27 13:05:39 * RST38h moos Feb 27 13:06:18 * Arif_ installs java on RST38h's N900 Feb 27 13:08:13 Arif_ - Thats a crime against nature. I'm reporting this to Peter Feb 27 13:08:40 but but Feb 27 13:08:42 java is teh win! Feb 27 13:08:46 look at Android! Feb 27 13:08:56 EXACTLY! Feb 27 13:08:58 :P Feb 27 13:09:14 EVERYONE MUST USE JAVA Feb 27 13:09:25 I didn't need you to prove my point by pointing out Android :P Feb 27 13:09:28 SO WE CAN ONLY WATCH MP4 CRAP ON OUR PHONES Feb 27 13:09:30 =P Feb 27 13:10:00 Google just hates their users :( Feb 27 13:11:56 * RST38h publicly defecates on Java Feb 27 13:11:57 Sorry Feb 27 13:12:05 ehlo wazd Feb 27 13:12:17 Sun will not love you Feb 27 13:12:20 ={ Feb 27 13:12:27 Sun? What is Sun? =) Feb 27 13:12:38 Some ancient hardware company bought by Oracle? Feb 27 13:12:52 <_julian> hi all Feb 27 13:12:53 yes! Feb 27 13:13:01 ah fuck that. Feb 27 13:13:06 still says oracle + sun on their site :P Feb 27 13:13:32 <_julian> is someone here familiar with lightmediascanner? - I am wondering how to detect updated and/or added files through the progress_status? Feb 27 13:13:36 RST38h: moo Feb 27 13:18:03 Hi. I just started a new project in garage. I'm new to open source. Is there any documentation on licensing that I should read? I'm using LGPL. Feb 27 13:18:49 Should I for example have something written about licensing in my sources? (Nokia seems to do this) Feb 27 13:18:50 wazd: New Maemo Mapper is out, from the main repo, with Shmuma's stuff Feb 27 13:18:58 wazd: Still majorly screwed up though Feb 27 13:19:10 ... Feb 27 13:19:16 sorry i can not show you the girls from last night because the PHOTO APP IS NOT SHOWING THE PICS Feb 27 13:19:28 I'm still using my N810 more than my N900. Feb 27 13:19:38 Largely because of mapper. Feb 27 13:20:00 Is it possible to enable the devel repository for 1 certain app? So the other applications won't automatically update if there is a new version in the devel repo? Feb 27 13:20:08 can yopu still enjoy the keyboard derf ? Feb 27 13:20:19 rst38h: well, since my n800 can work for 2 hours only I doubt that I can find any use for maemo mapper :) Feb 27 13:20:43 goong to reboot piece of shit. maybe they will show Feb 27 13:20:48 derf: Maep Feb 27 13:20:49 pupnik: I enjoy having hardware keys to navigate the map. Feb 27 13:20:56 Rst38h: cached yandex maps works fine though :) Feb 27 13:21:02 wazd: How about new battery? Feb 27 13:21:21 RsT38h: it's new Feb 27 13:21:51 derf: BTW, I will be in the MD/DC/VA area from March 4 ro March 18, so if you want to cross paths at some coffee place, let me know Feb 27 13:22:04 wazd: Then how the hell...? Feb 27 13:22:43 I don't drink coffee (or beer for that matter). But we could always grab a pizza or something. Feb 27 13:22:53 derf: pizza will do. Feb 27 13:22:57 Rst38h: dunno, already reflashed it Feb 27 13:24:10 wazd: I am now basically forced into making TI84+SE work, due to availability of the rom =) Feb 27 13:24:36 Rst38h: oh, great) Feb 27 13:24:36 Rst38h: at last :) Feb 27 13:24:49 wazd: Well, not sure if the dump is valid yet Feb 27 13:25:15 wazd: The 83+ and later models are weird on the inside - copy protection, writable flash roms, etc Feb 27 13:25:30 rst38h: hello kitty mode included?) Feb 27 13:29:03 wazd: well, if you add an extra button to the top menu then why not Feb 27 13:29:15 wazd: Otherwise, I will have to force it every friday or something =) Feb 27 13:30:52 Heh) Feb 27 13:38:02 the goddamn mp4 is right in DCIM but media player, media box dont see it Feb 27 13:41:07 yo man BAD job Feb 27 13:43:25 what do you guys think is the best for battery life, edge connection or wifi connection? Feb 27 13:43:38 wifi Feb 27 13:43:54 wifi with powersave Feb 27 13:44:09 wifi, unless you have a crap access point Feb 27 13:44:10 ok, that's what I've configured already Feb 27 13:44:27 how can you "test" if power saving works the way it should? Feb 27 13:44:31 djkrikke: autodisconnect seems nice Feb 27 13:44:51 indeed Lynoure Feb 27 13:44:52 but that's in devel Feb 27 13:45:00 djkrikke: by not doing anything and seeing if your net gets disconnected, perhaps. Feb 27 13:45:05 and I don't want to add devel because all the other apps will start updating with devel versions Feb 27 13:45:06 Many good things are :) Feb 27 13:45:31 djkrikke: you can add, install, disable devel again, if curious. Feb 27 13:47:06 oh really? Feb 27 13:47:10 that's maybe a good idea Feb 27 13:47:42 what other apps do you think are good, but in devel? Feb 27 13:50:03 (that question was to Lynoure, sorry for not mentioning) Feb 27 13:53:49 Hi, anyone knows how to include libgq-gconf (a GConf wrapper for Qt) into your Qt project (.pro) file? Feb 27 13:58:48 hmm, this looks like a bug, each time I receive an e-mail I click on the "popup", but I get an empty mail.. Feb 27 13:58:53 it is in my inbox howee Feb 27 13:58:55 *however Feb 27 14:06:14 djdjel clicking too fast? Feb 27 14:06:32 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV7WXAqBAM4 + N900 = YAY :D Feb 27 14:06:35 I think I just had that happen with sms Feb 27 14:10:39 djkrikke: hmm, not sure, most of the time I don't differentiate where my apps come from... Feb 27 14:13:17 the transflective screen gives a beautiful green/orange in direct sunlight Feb 27 14:13:53 doesnt seem to flicker like n810 Feb 27 14:16:06 Lynoure: I understand, what are some of your favourite apps then? Feb 27 14:16:25 djkrikke: Quicknote, certainly Feb 27 14:16:49 pupnik: you can turn the backlight entirely off too Feb 27 14:17:02 djkrikke: Eggtimer from ovistore (embarrassed, but it's a nice alarm for pomodoros) Feb 27 14:17:17 Lynoure: nice one lol Feb 27 14:17:38 FBreader/xchat Feb 27 14:17:42 djkrikke: Exercise Counter Feb 27 14:17:46 camkeyd Feb 27 14:18:07 speedy Feb 27 14:18:16 Still looking for a decent password manager Feb 27 14:18:16 (checks current internet speed) Feb 27 14:18:30 all seem quirky or way too cluttered Feb 27 14:18:39 Recommendations for one, anyone? Feb 27 14:21:26 Lynoure: doesn't microB save your passwords? Feb 27 14:21:46 djkrikke: not for my other systems it does not Feb 27 14:22:18 djkrikke: looking for a thing that stores notes or passwords encrypted in a file somewhere Feb 27 14:22:24 I see Feb 27 14:31:33 disco_stu, having problems? :P Feb 27 14:31:53 god it feels good to shave Feb 27 14:31:58 first time in three weeks now Feb 27 14:42:37 Hi, I'm trying to change the description of a package on maemo.org/downloads, but after a short time the old description is shown again. What am I doing wrong? Feb 27 14:42:43 mediabox also fails to see my new videos Feb 27 14:43:04 ow andrei1089 Feb 27 14:47:44 andrei1089: you're probably trying to change the description of the package on maemo.org/downloads, that's what you're doing wrong I think Feb 27 14:47:55 andrei1089: you're supposed to change it in the package itself, it updates from there Feb 27 14:49:36 villager, then why is the option to change the description still available? Feb 27 14:50:25 andrei1089: it's a bug, it's been discussed but never done anything about Feb 27 14:50:36 *runs away from bugs* Feb 27 14:51:03 ok, thanks villager Feb 27 14:51:07 andrei1089: it's a legacy from the n770/n800/etc days, when it did not work that way Feb 27 14:51:59 andrei1089: back then you updated on the webpage... but on the n900, the package description is supposed to be the same that you see in the app manager or something, I think Feb 27 14:52:13 which is taken from the package itself Feb 27 15:06:57 Hi all Feb 27 15:08:02 hu Feb 27 15:08:02 Who knows how to create a ".desktop" file to run an application under X-Terminal with root priviledges? Feb 27 15:10:38 no one? Feb 27 15:11:44 embedded: asked a million times and then some Feb 27 15:11:47 embedded: google it Feb 27 15:13:06 crashanddie: I just made some searches, but I only found how to create a shortcut to run app under XTerm but not as root Feb 27 15:14:34 embedded: your google must be broken, look what I just found: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=538655#post538655 Feb 27 15:19:09 crashanddie: I have already found it, but it doesn't work fine. Let me explain: if I launch XTerm and type "sudo gainroot" and then run my ncurses app, it works fine, if instead, I launch it by shortcut it seems to hang the phone, why? Feb 27 15:19:39 i just type "root" btw Feb 27 15:20:01 embedded: have you tried with a simple command? Feb 27 15:20:12 Hi, anyone would know why I cannot access the GConf path /system/osso/connectivity/IAP/ through gconftool-2 within Scratchbox, although the directory is correctly created in /var/lib/gconf//system/osso/connectivity/IAP/ within Scratchbox? Feb 27 15:20:16 embedded: something like "whoami"? Feb 27 15:20:32 fabinader: access rights? Feb 27 15:21:38 crashanddie: What do you mean? The onwer must be "root"? It must be executable? Feb 27 15:22:16 fabinader: well, what user does it belong to, what are the access rights for said directory, and what user are you using? Feb 27 15:23:43 crashanddie: to make it works and don't load CPU quite to 80% I have to get root priviledges first and *only* after execute the app. It doesn't work with a single line command concatenation Feb 27 15:24:29 crashanddie: Q1 - "maemo", Q2 - drwxrwxr-x 2 maemo maemo, Q3 - "maemo" I beleive, as whoami returend "maemo" Feb 27 15:27:44 embedded: not the question I asked Feb 27 15:28:04 embedded: you asked "why does my phone freeze", I told you "what happens when you try to run a simple command like "whoami"" Feb 27 15:28:31 ah ok Feb 27 15:28:32 fabinader: and you're just trying to read the contents? Feb 27 15:28:41 Yeap Feb 27 15:28:55 crashanddie: let me check Feb 27 15:29:34 crashanddie: Do you know if GConf in scratchbox works correctly, even if you call af-sb-init.sh start? Feb 27 15:29:55 no idea mate, only used scratchbox for a couple months 3 years ago Feb 27 15:30:17 should do though Feb 27 15:30:38 crashanddie: ok, thanks anyway :( Feb 27 15:31:18 maybe so can help me. can creat new share account any i click on new "settings" or "photos" quiets Feb 27 15:31:22 crashanddie: eh but if my app is running under XTerm I not able to run any command until it's running, cause any attempt to open other instance of XTerm bring me to my app window Feb 27 15:31:27 crashanddie, lol, I had a dream last night that I shaved my beard. Feb 27 15:32:10 GAN900: the fact that we might have a real connection is strangely disturbing, good friend Feb 27 15:32:29 GAN900: will have 40d on wednesday Feb 27 15:32:39 Woo Feb 27 15:32:50 Get some lenses. Feb 27 15:33:06 also, I discovered an open source project that aims at providing low-budget DIY motion controllers Feb 27 15:33:33 GAN900: check the video i sent to your desktop, seriously good stuff Feb 27 15:34:46 what about Feb 27 15:35:05 for roughly $300 (or less if you use the n800/n810 in usb host mode) you can build a 2 axis head + timed trigger that will move the camera and take pictures at the speed you want/need Feb 27 15:35:19 crashanddie: but if my app is running under XTerm I not able to run any command until it's running, cause any attempt to open other instance of XTerm bring me to my app window Feb 27 15:35:45 pupnik: I highly recommend downloading the 720p version Feb 27 15:35:46 http://rossching.com/eclectic-20/ Feb 27 15:36:04 crashanddie, send it here. I don't feel like VNCing in. Feb 27 15:36:23 GAN900: ^ Feb 27 15:36:40 cehteh, Hildon Note?! Feb 27 15:36:51 I'll assume it's interesting cause it's you Feb 27 15:58:27 mornin maemo Feb 27 16:00:24 I thought I'd look into writing applications for Maemo in Python. Then I read about meego. Will that be very different, you think? Feb 27 16:01:02 Is there some Maemo guru,please ? Feb 27 16:01:27 jo-erlend: qt will be the main/blessed toolkit/application framework, so you're better off learning PyQt4 Feb 27 16:01:59 arachnist, ah. Thanks. Feb 27 16:03:43 hey guys is it possible that nobody here has developed an app for Maemo? Feb 27 16:03:59 embedded: no. Feb 27 16:04:07 no, but asking a straight question is better Feb 27 16:04:40 ehed I just asked before but now answers Feb 27 16:05:02 except few works from crashanddie Feb 27 16:05:06 words Feb 27 16:05:13 embedded: sometimes even gurus don't know an answer. Feb 27 16:05:55 nomis, how did the fat discussion turn out last night Feb 27 16:06:13 on 531 people? I think so Feb 27 16:06:15 lcuk: I dunno, at some point I just went to bed. Feb 27 16:06:37 same here i had to plug in and snooze Feb 27 16:07:03 hey Stskeeps Feb 27 16:09:35 Well, HTC HD2 is helluva spade Feb 27 16:09:59 It's screen is larger than my whole e63 :) Feb 27 16:11:23 wazd is that a bad thing? Feb 27 16:12:31 Lcuk: well, I saw it earlier and it didn't look that huge for me) Feb 27 16:12:32 lcuk: well, it's eyecatching :) Feb 27 16:13:26 not designed for people with small hands then Feb 27 16:14:18 lcuk: I definitely don't have this problem) Feb 27 16:14:35 heh Feb 27 16:14:40 luke has nicked my n810 Feb 27 16:15:34 I actually wanted to buy it but it's even more expensive than n900 Feb 27 16:23:36 HD2 is nice Feb 27 16:23:39 But WinMo! Feb 27 16:25:55 indeed Feb 27 16:26:00 winMo is a big fail these days Feb 27 16:46:58 * Aranel needs some Photoshop assistance =) (for 1 logo and 2 buttons, not much - Maemo related) Feb 27 16:48:43 Aranel: I can give you Gimp assistance. Feb 27 16:49:02 nomis: its better ^^ Feb 27 16:49:30 nomis, is your gimp suit back from the ccleaners already? Feb 27 16:49:37 and did they fix all the punctures? Feb 27 16:49:47 lcuk: uh, what? Feb 27 16:49:55 nomis: I'm working on a unofficial support site for MeeGo/Maemo Turkey. Here what it looks like now: http://i47.tinypic.com/334k7dh.jpg Feb 27 16:49:56 :D just jesting Feb 27 16:50:16 lcuk: oh right - took a while :) Feb 27 16:50:35 blame it on saturday Feb 27 16:51:18 nomis: I dont have any skills about graphics, so I could not do these logo and buttons. Feb 27 16:53:31 Aranel: oh, sorry. I assumed you needed help in how-to-use gimp/photoshop. I won't start doing artwork for you, sorry. Feb 27 16:53:52 nomis: =) np, thanks anyway. Feb 27 16:53:54 * mgedmin wishes he could do artwork and other pretty things ... Feb 27 16:54:02 * mgedmin likes pretty things Feb 27 16:59:52 mgedmin: iPhone? Feb 27 17:00:12 it is sort of pretty, yes Feb 27 17:00:19 I like the slimness and minimalism of the design Feb 27 17:00:25 I find the n900's screen prettier Feb 27 17:00:29 tiny tiny pixels are so cute! Feb 27 17:00:44 small pixer kawaii? Feb 27 17:00:51 hehehe Feb 27 17:00:59 * mgedmin remembers when he first saw an iPod and thought it was a medical device of some kind Feb 27 17:01:01 Lumpio-: s/kawaii/hentai/ ;) Feb 27 17:01:15 arachnist, pixels, not pixies! Feb 27 17:01:17 I guess pixels can be perverted ¬_¬ Feb 27 17:01:27 Depends on what they're displaying Feb 27 17:01:46 the all-white thing had some kind of sterile look Feb 27 17:01:57 mhh! turning off 3G makes for like 3x more battery time Feb 27 17:02:42 Shapeshifter: turn off wifi scanning, and switch over to wifi only when you know you're in range Feb 27 17:02:46 mgedmin, ipod nano is edible monitoring device Feb 27 17:03:17 * mgedmin would buy an ipod nano in an eyeblink, if it didn't refuse to work with his laptop Feb 27 17:07:24 wazd, what would a meego n900 redux look like in your eyes. using similar hardware capabilities but with your polished asthetics Feb 27 17:10:09 polished n900 GUI yes please ;p Feb 27 17:10:52 red, we have ui polishing, lots of nice themes that people enjoy using Feb 27 17:11:08 let me rephrase Feb 27 17:11:15 i was thinking outside Feb 27 17:11:39 grid snapping, unified size for bookmarks, shortcuts and contacts on desktop, non-choppy animations Feb 27 17:12:36 i can live without those things easily, but id be a happy camper if it was like that ;) Feb 27 17:13:24 didnt i see a community grid snapping tool Feb 27 17:14:39 Ok, anyone would like to talk me away from buying BH-905 headphones? Feb 27 17:14:43 RST38bis: test Feb 27 17:14:58 http://maemocentral.com/2010/02/25/n900-homescreen-setup-ideas-tricks/ Feb 27 17:15:03 red ^^ Feb 27 17:15:58 RST38h, buy the headphones if you want them, otherwise dont Feb 27 17:16:30 lcuk: nah, this will not work, either way =) Feb 27 17:16:41 lol Feb 27 17:16:45 what do you like about them Feb 27 17:17:22 real headphones, should be comfortable, bt, noise cancelling Feb 27 17:17:57 are those attributes of the bh-905s? Feb 27 17:20:15 afaiu the n900 has grid-snapping out of the box in latter firmwares, only the grid is *tiny* Feb 27 17:20:46 mgedmin: there is a secret to that ;) Feb 27 17:20:49 lcuk: yes Feb 27 17:21:00 secret? ooh, do tell! Feb 27 17:24:06 mgedmin: there is a config file with desktop settings, you set snap-grid step there. I have mine set to 10 or something Feb 27 17:24:33 will tell you name ina second Feb 27 17:24:57 it's not in gconf. why isn't it in gconf?? Feb 27 17:26:56 mgedmin: /usr/share/hildon-desktop/transitions.ini Feb 27 17:27:05 really? Feb 27 17:27:10 transitions? Feb 27 17:27:42 * mgedmin finds the original bug: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5372 Feb 27 17:27:43 Bug 5372: Can't easily align desktop widgets (snap to position) on home screens Feb 27 17:28:07 whoa, a 4x4 grid! Feb 27 17:28:26 hehe, yes, it makes sense to decrease swap to let you have 4 rows of icons Feb 27 17:28:31 s/swap/step Feb 27 17:28:34 anyway, to put things in perspective, I find the current fine grid makes things at least 4x better than no grid at all Feb 27 17:56:01 andrei1089: you around? Feb 27 17:57:13 I've just seen that there is a repository for java on Maemo 4 Feb 27 17:57:19 gah @ my nipple being wonky Feb 27 17:57:25 why there is not such a repository for Maemo 5? Feb 27 17:57:45 Java D: Feb 27 17:58:02 perhaps someone realized that java sucks in the meantime Feb 27 18:04:31 many things that suck have large followings *cough*qt*cough* Feb 27 18:06:03 mgedmin, nothing new, sasha gray turned it into a career Feb 27 18:07:25 who? Feb 27 18:08:10 mgedmin, dont search, it was a crude reference Feb 27 18:09:39 * aspidites hates captcha. 30+ attempts and still can't register at ovi... Feb 27 18:10:58 youre a machine! Feb 27 18:11:16 apparently. Feb 27 18:13:35 wow. finally worked. apparently registering from store.ovi.com is broken but can be done via ovi.com Feb 27 18:19:20 has anyone been able to download from ovi today? i click "continue" but it still won't let me download angry birds Feb 27 18:19:26 new maemo mapper, nice .. but where does it store the tiles? Feb 27 18:19:51 cehteh: on te perforated tape,judging from update speed Feb 27 18:20:01 hehe Feb 27 18:20:15 yes .. but i didnt found the papertrail yet Feb 27 18:20:30 done lsof and shows nothing Feb 27 18:20:33 what is cool this week Feb 27 18:23:38 hmm...apparently I can't download anything period on my browser... Feb 27 18:23:59 Anybody willing to help me about this broken apt on n900 ? http://pastebin.com/MBGNC8FC Feb 27 18:24:23 non of common fixes worked for me Feb 27 18:24:46 strcpy, sudo vim /var/lib/dpkg/info/samba-common.postinst Feb 27 18:24:55 add a line after the #!/bin/sh saying 'set -x' Feb 27 18:25:12 let me try it. thank you :) Feb 27 18:25:18 then run 'sudo dpkg --configure -a' and see what command in the script produces that error message Feb 27 18:25:36 that may be sufficient to figure out what's wrong and maybe file a bug report Feb 27 18:25:44 pupnik: LED pattern editor Feb 27 18:25:48 pupnik: rules pretty hard Feb 27 18:25:48 RST38h: ah it shares the cache with maep .. MyDocs/.maps Feb 27 18:25:57 yes Feb 27 18:25:58 cehteh: isn't it a good thing? Feb 27 18:26:02 the unified maemo map tile cache! yay Feb 27 18:26:04 it appeard while connection dropped in middle of downloading samba by apt Feb 27 18:26:12 yes it is .. i just wanted to find out Feb 27 18:26:29 RST38h: the pattern editor is nice, but still lacks a lot features Feb 27 18:26:50 (and hey .. released after i handcoded all my favorite patterns duh! :P) Feb 27 18:26:52 strcpy, interesting, but if the deb were incomplete, apt/dpkg wouldn't think you had samba already half-installed, I think Feb 27 18:27:10 strcpy, alternatively you may want to try sudo apt-get install samba-common --reinstall Feb 27 18:27:13 cehteh: has got all I need to paint IM and missed calls different colors =) Feb 27 18:27:46 second workaround already tried ~> no luck Feb 27 18:27:53 you cant create new patterns with it and (i didnt found out at least) how to add new commands to the list Feb 27 18:28:40 and my patterns have a a minimum brightness of 1 instead 0 .. thats bit harder to code because pauses cant just decrement n times Feb 27 18:28:54 mgedmin: should I leave default set -e ? Feb 27 18:28:57 the charging/on/charged patterns i mean Feb 27 18:29:04 strcpy, yes Feb 27 18:29:15 i like it glowing in the night, very dimly, just that one can locate the device Feb 27 18:29:32 . seems to only be wifi that has the problem. anyone else experiencing wifi download issues on n900? Feb 27 18:29:58 Anyone ever get that update in the UK? Feb 27 18:30:07 Nothing for me Feb 27 18:30:07 still not? Feb 27 18:30:36 i thought the snow has melted and the tunnel trains go again ... Feb 27 18:30:44 mgedmin: result : http://pastebin.com/gZ7neUDz Feb 27 18:30:49 but the intatnet pipes are still frozen :P Feb 27 18:30:59 I guess they are not bothering, maybe theres a big update coming shortly Feb 27 18:31:09 strcpy, so, no change? Feb 27 18:31:13 nop Feb 27 18:31:14 hey, what does the script itself look like? Feb 27 18:31:18 ok ... /me sucking osm maps like mad now Feb 27 18:31:19 let me try apt-gt update again Feb 27 18:31:21 maybe it starts with #!/usr/bin/bash? Feb 27 18:31:27 maybe you don't have bash installed? Feb 27 18:31:30 SWFu64: Did Nokia ever say anything official about missing the UK update? Feb 27 18:31:38 strcpy, ^ Feb 27 18:31:49 Not that I know of. Feb 27 18:32:09 DarkCell:~# head /var/lib/dpkg/info/samba-common.postinst Feb 27 18:32:10 #!/bin/sh Feb 27 18:32:10 # Feb 27 18:32:10 # Feb 27 18:32:10 set -x Feb 27 18:32:10 set -e Feb 27 18:32:46 weird Feb 27 18:32:58 indeed ! I`m lost Feb 27 18:33:07 * mgedmin is grasping straws now Feb 27 18:33:16 maybe the file has CR LF line endings? Feb 27 18:33:21 I had one idea , maybe it work ? manualy dowloading broken package and placing in apt temp folder? Feb 27 18:33:27 ty RST38h Feb 27 18:33:33 "dpkg (subprocess): unable to execute post-installation script: No such file or directory" Feb 27 18:34:02 seems to imply that either /var/lib/dpkg/info/samba-common.postinst doesn't exist or /bin/sh doesn't exist Feb 27 18:34:10 mgedmin: file is missing but donnow why apt is not downloading it again :/ Feb 27 18:34:18 which file is missing? Feb 27 18:34:31 pupnik: check date widget as well, same as calendar widget but without the todo shit Feb 27 18:35:25 mgedmin: both exist Feb 27 18:35:32 I`m over ssh already Feb 27 18:35:39 strcpy, and the line endings? Feb 27 18:35:57 optify "usr/share/doc/samba-common" Feb 27 18:36:09 ah CLRF .. Feb 27 18:36:13 let me chk Feb 27 18:37:40 all seems ok Feb 27 18:38:06 isn`t is a conflict between dev & extra repositories? Feb 27 18:39:42 I'm baffled by that error Feb 27 18:40:14 brute force? sudo apt-get remove samba-common; sudo apt-get install samba? Feb 27 18:40:19 isn`t there any trick to atucally reset apt ? Feb 27 18:40:36 define "reset apt" Feb 27 18:41:01 actually, you don't want to apt-get install samba, you want smbclient Feb 27 18:41:50 there seems to be some progress here :) let me pastebin Feb 27 18:42:18 http://pastebin.com/g6YquWqr Feb 27 18:42:22 strcpy, IT IS WINDOWS LINE ENDINGS! Feb 27 18:42:31 I just downloaded http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/s/samba/samba-common_3.4.3-maemo2_all.deb Feb 27 18:42:33 and looked inside Feb 27 18:42:36 c question ... what is the correct way to define a constant char* in a header file ? Feb 27 18:42:45 debian/postinst starts with "#!/bin/sh\x0D\x0A" Feb 27 18:42:55 a broken package Feb 27 18:43:04 contact the uploader, complain, tell him/her to fix it Feb 27 18:43:05 so wtf I've done wrong here ?! Feb 27 18:43:10 const char* my_const_string = "String"; does not work in gcc if it's in header file Feb 27 18:43:19 I fixed that here, Feb 27 18:43:24 strcpy, nothing, the package is broken Feb 27 18:43:34 wait, let me see your pastebin Feb 27 18:43:58 re-editing with nano/vim fix that Feb 27 18:44:16 if you :set ff=unix before saving, yes Feb 27 18:44:23 nano I don't think touches line endings at all? Feb 27 18:44:49 postrm is also buggy Feb 27 18:44:53 #!/bin/sh -e" Feb 27 18:44:59 busybox sh doesn't like that Feb 27 18:45:01 does anyone know how to use the .plist handbrake file for vidio encoding with handbrake cli,. the plist from http://wiki.maemo.org/Ripping_DVDs_with_Handbrake Feb 27 18:45:12 should be changed to two lines: "#!/bin/sh" and "set -e" Feb 27 18:45:38 is already as above Feb 27 18:45:50 after I inserted your first hint Feb 27 18:46:06 * mgedmin sometimes wishes all maemo packages were kept in revision control in a uniform manner, and he had commit rights Feb 27 18:46:43 strcpy, I was talking about postrm now -- the cause for "/bin/sh: illegal option -" and "subprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 2" Feb 27 18:51:05 * mgedmin emails the maintainer Feb 27 18:51:10 mgedmin: do you know about networking lags of n900 too? while wifi is set to it`s default powe-saving, wifi is actually broken for downloading/ssh/... but setting it to less power saving or disabling that, fix it Feb 27 18:51:24 huahuaha Feb 27 18:51:25 thanks for help about apt btw Feb 27 18:51:33 people claim it's wifi accesspoints not following the 802.11whatever spec correctly Feb 27 18:53:44 BTW does N900 support 802.11n? Feb 27 18:53:50 no Feb 27 18:53:51 no Feb 27 18:53:52 ok Feb 27 18:54:00 no? Feb 27 18:54:03 no Feb 27 18:54:08 are you sure Feb 27 18:54:08 my ap doesn't either Feb 27 18:54:13 and my laptop Feb 27 18:54:48 wikipedia says 802.11b/g only Feb 27 18:55:06 no jacekowski, 802.11n is not supported Feb 27 18:55:24 the chip they used is not supporting it Feb 27 18:55:45 not even a :/ Feb 27 18:55:54 nobody uses a Feb 27 18:55:57 everyone uses g Feb 27 18:55:57 thank god, 802.11a needs to die Feb 27 18:56:00 so who cares Feb 27 18:56:00 10 years ago, ideally. Feb 27 18:56:03 non of them are required in common uses IMO Feb 27 18:56:17 mhm .. and running at 600Mhz for extended time, it gets quite warm now Feb 27 18:56:26 nid0: huh? a is cool Feb 27 18:56:29 and about N , who really needs that bandwidth on a phone ?! Feb 27 18:57:12 all people use 2Ghz .. 5Ghz is free :) Feb 27 18:57:15 nokia probably didnt want to put a draft version into something like a mass production phone anyway Feb 27 18:57:22 * RST38h does Feb 27 18:57:25 what's wrong with 802.11a? Feb 27 18:57:29 much better to wait till the spec's actually finalised before using it Feb 27 18:57:35 whats wrong with it? its sucks? Feb 27 18:57:38 mgedmin: too short range Feb 27 18:57:49 mgedmin: way too short Feb 27 18:57:52 terrible range, huge power usage Feb 27 18:57:53 what, like 30 cm? Feb 27 18:58:04 mgedmin: not that bad, more like 10m Feb 27 18:58:30 * mgedmin learned something new today Feb 27 18:58:57 mgedmin, do you feel more pain now? Feb 27 18:59:08 no? Feb 27 18:59:35 ugh tefrrible range. who forced that? EU government? Feb 27 19:00:02 no, its just a limitation of the standard. a was an olllld version of g, and was replaced by g because it was shit, effectively Feb 27 19:00:11 mgedmin, in finnish we use "knowledge brings pain" instead of "ignorance is a bliss" Feb 27 19:00:33 * mgedmin learned another new thing today Feb 27 19:00:37 btw, any progress on packet-injection on wifi ? Feb 27 19:00:43 mgedmin, =) Feb 27 19:01:06 everyone is missing it :) Feb 27 19:01:21 if ignorance is bliss then why aren't more people happy? Feb 27 19:01:36 dumb people think theyre smart Feb 27 19:07:37 nid0: and this makes them unhappy! Feb 27 19:07:40 cheers. Feb 27 19:08:39 seconds) Feb 27 19:09:01 http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/02/500x_lightbooks.jpg Feb 27 19:15:18 what the? Feb 27 19:15:41 that doesn't look like a nice way to treat books Feb 27 19:16:08 it is done by performance artists Feb 27 19:16:34 you have ot be thankful there is no performance artist shitting at these books, on camera Feb 27 19:17:38 802.11a versus 802.11bgn in large conferences: http://www.tummy.com/Community/Articles/pycon2010-network/ Feb 27 19:17:58 "Things are starting to pad out a little, even though general devs don’t have devices yet; we’ve got Picodrive for Genesis emulation, Hatari for Atari ST, UAE for Amiga, MAME, Vice for Commodore 64, and a really groovy port of DosBox with full touchscreen mouse emulation, for instance. We’ve got Abiword built in, along with some little utils — djwillis crammed quite a bit into that firmware space! Some ports are coming along .. Quake 1, 2, Feb 27 19:20:22 mgedmin, conferences in big open rooms and tons of access points but in an area flooded with other networks as well are about the only practical use of a Feb 27 19:22:44 oh noes! the usb/recharge jack on my main n900 is now broke. doh. Feb 27 19:22:54 ouch Feb 27 19:23:07 get an external charger =P Feb 27 19:23:47 guess i'll use that one for fedora since i can't recharge it anyway, heh Feb 27 19:25:17 I found another bug \o/ Feb 27 19:25:41 radios stop playing after you hear the low battery sound Feb 27 19:25:43 ;9 Feb 27 19:25:44 ;( Feb 27 19:27:08 maybe that is useful Feb 27 19:30:07 no it's not Feb 27 19:31:14 jebba: it might still pickup charge even if loose Feb 27 19:31:34 that cable with the lever arm is a serious error Feb 27 19:33:54 pupnik, well it is not level now (like 150° instead of 180°) and plugging it in, it doesn't recharge. Feb 27 19:34:57 ow. did you trip over the cord? Feb 27 19:38:53 another charging port breaks... fun :/ Feb 27 19:39:07 on n900? Feb 27 19:39:29 Arif_, when do you get the low battery warning? At what percentage? Feb 27 19:39:58 what is softpoweroff? Feb 27 19:40:32 djkrikke, there's a battery bar and no % :o Feb 27 19:40:41 oh i see Feb 27 19:40:49 I use the desktop command widget Feb 27 19:40:52 so I can get the percentage Feb 27 19:41:22 I'm not that concerned Feb 27 19:41:51 but when do you get the warning then, I suppose when the battery bar get's empty :) Feb 27 19:42:07 because I read, if things go wrong and the battery really dies, you have to use a desktop charger. Feb 27 19:42:09 you usually get a low battery warning when the battery is, well......low Feb 27 19:42:12 =P Feb 27 19:42:12 is that still correct anyway? Feb 27 19:42:16 Arif_, when do you get the low battery warning? At what percentage? Feb 27 19:42:21 5mAh Feb 27 19:42:31 allright MohammadAG Feb 27 19:42:41 nah it justs starts saying 5mAh after battery low Feb 27 19:42:43 can anyone tell me what the soft poweroff option means? Feb 27 19:42:54 jumps from whatever to exactly 5 :) Feb 27 19:43:04 lol Feb 27 19:43:13 ShadowJK, maybe it's for saving the battery? Feb 27 19:43:17 usually it goes down by 5 here Feb 27 19:43:19 so It doesn't really get empty Feb 27 19:43:31 20-15-5-machine-gun-ding Feb 27 19:43:47 Yes of course Feb 27 19:43:54 * Arif_ charges his battery :P Feb 27 19:44:10 * MohammadAG needs to get a new SIM Feb 27 19:44:13 ShadowJK, is that "bug" still in there? That it's possible you can't charge it anymore after going totally empty? Feb 27 19:44:34 N900 keeps saying no sim, it's kind of worn out (the sim) Feb 27 19:44:48 Only if you hosed the os, I think. Feb 27 19:45:23 Like in an upgrade or something.. Feb 27 19:45:25 or if you try something silly like charge from an usb port (use the wall charger) Feb 27 19:45:52 * Arif_ usually charges from an USB port Feb 27 19:46:19 what's wrong with usb Feb 27 19:46:22 iirc low battery warning comes at about 3.5Volt and the software shuts down before 3.2Volt Feb 27 19:46:28 * MohammadAG is charging from a USB atm (PS3 PSU rocks!) Feb 27 19:47:05 djkrikke, it requires negotiation with the host device, which requires the n900 to turn on, which requires power in the battery Feb 27 19:47:28 ooh I see Feb 27 19:47:33 plus it's weak compared to wall charger Feb 27 19:47:35 so charging an empty device with usb is going to give problems :) Feb 27 19:47:52 what about a car charger Feb 27 19:47:54 It should work if done properly Feb 27 19:48:04 The current you can draw from USB without negotiation should be enough to kickstart the process Feb 27 19:48:16 Arif_, afaik car chargers don't work (if they're USB based) Feb 27 19:48:26 they don't? Feb 27 19:48:27 I use the wall charger in the car :) Feb 27 19:48:32 how do I charge my phone in the car then! Feb 27 19:48:38 wall charger :) Feb 27 19:48:51 ...there should be no difference between a car and a wall charger Feb 27 19:48:55 They're both likely dumb devices Feb 27 19:48:55 normal cars don't have a wall socket thing :P Feb 27 19:49:21 Arif_, http://i48.tinypic.com/2nh106r.jpg Feb 27 19:49:31 :) Feb 27 19:49:50 :huh: Feb 27 19:49:51 Use it for all my devices Feb 27 19:49:57 moo javispedro Feb 27 19:50:02 moo Feb 27 19:50:09 That's just ginormous. Feb 27 19:50:19 And probably incredibly inefficient as well Feb 27 19:50:24 finally got my n900 back, and now half the albumart is gone Feb 27 19:50:37 Why would you want to stop the voltage up to 110/220V only to step it down immediately afterwards D: Feb 27 19:50:38 * mgedmin has a thing like that, only it converts the car's 12V into USB Feb 27 19:50:57 the entire albumart infrastructure seems to be as fragile as a windows 3.1 .ini file . Feb 27 19:51:08 mgedmin, it has a USB port too, but that doesn't work with the N900 Feb 27 19:51:11 javispedro: tracker. Feb 27 19:51:27 RST38h: yeah I'm already tackling it. Feb 27 19:51:48 Is there a way to discover the actual uploader for an app in the repositories? Feb 27 19:51:49 seems it fails to copy stuff from .mediaartlocal to ~/.cache folders if they exist. Feb 27 19:52:04 javispedro: more like, kill it for good and add a desktop button that says "rescan all media" Feb 27 19:52:11 ha Feb 27 19:52:21 and the stuff to read cover.jpg files from directories is just not implemented in anything other than .mp3 files. Feb 27 19:52:31 Why would you want to stop the voltage up to 110/220V only to step it down immediately afterwards D: / good point Feb 27 19:52:51 Flandry: iirc it's listed in te packages interfaces. Feb 27 19:52:53 javispedro: well, tracker is brought to you by the same guy who brought modest Feb 27 19:52:56 * RST38h snickers Feb 27 19:53:03 MohammadAG: easier to change voltages with AC Feb 27 19:53:09 * mgedmin kinda likes modest Feb 27 19:53:11 s/stop/step/ even Feb 27 19:53:15 don't know if that's a reason though Feb 27 19:53:18 * mgedmin is kinda suspicious towards tracker Feb 27 19:53:21 Flandry: and also that cauldron list has that info Feb 27 19:53:27 mgedmin: I am sure it is Stockholm syndrome Feb 27 19:53:33 Vme uses the dc-10 car charger, works fine Feb 27 19:53:34 cauldron list? Feb 27 19:53:56 Flandry: https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/extras-cauldron-builds/ Feb 27 19:54:01 any car charger that follows the usb charging spec should be fine (but alot of crappy doesn't) Feb 27 19:54:08 RST38h, no, my using Mutt on a dual-core laptop could be Stockholm syndrome Feb 27 19:54:22 mgedmin: PINE. And PICO. Feb 27 19:54:23 ShadowJK, Nokia's chargers work? Feb 27 19:54:30 read some posts on tmo that they don't Feb 27 19:54:36 lol? Feb 27 19:54:45 * javispedro prepares to file the appropiate bugs... Feb 27 19:55:04 RST38h, blasphemy! Feb 27 19:55:24 oh, there goes my "no flame wars on irc" resolution again... Feb 27 19:55:43 Weird shit: AdBlocker+ icon changed from red to green Feb 27 19:55:44 heh Feb 27 19:56:09 evenin Flandry Feb 27 19:56:23 Hi pupnik Feb 27 19:56:34 So here's the problem. Says here: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_i386/libpoppler-qt4-dev/0.12.2-2maemo0/ Feb 27 19:57:40 isn`t there anything ported to Maemo for GSM field testing ? like FTD for Symbian.. Feb 27 19:57:45 that "Loic Minier" is the maintainer, and that seems to coincide with the user information, but upon emailing Loic i was told that (s)he is not the maintainer for Maemo version Feb 27 19:58:13 current RFmon in extra is just covering very basic and useless info Feb 27 19:58:20 strcpy: no such (documented) access to the modem Feb 27 19:58:48 means no luck for developers unless they RE the firmware? Feb 27 19:59:27 probably Feb 27 19:59:32 So i can't figure out who to contact to get a dependencies problem fixed Feb 27 20:00:06 Flandry: what's the source package name? Feb 27 20:00:11 "poppler"? Feb 27 20:00:56 javispedro, just the person Feb 27 20:00:58 hiya Feb 27 20:01:03 Good question Feb 27 20:01:08 Let me check Feb 27 20:01:16 evening lcuk Feb 27 20:01:23 2.1G .maps/OpenStreetMap I ... just takes time to fill up the flash :P Feb 27 20:01:26 Tsunami hits Marquesas Island Feb 27 20:01:42 Flandry, if the debian/control file lies about the maintainer, check debian/changelog Feb 27 20:02:07 can anyone tell me what soft poweroff means? Feb 27 20:02:46 :( @ tsunami Feb 27 20:03:00 debian says "Poppler". Feb 27 20:03:20 Flandry: thus cauldron says the latest uploader of poppler is "tanner" Feb 27 20:03:46 the parents of my wife live in valparaiso and send some pics Feb 27 20:03:58 Ah, thanks Feb 27 20:04:26 Was still trying to figure out the necessary apt and dpkg commands Feb 27 20:04:29 luckily nothing too dramatic happend, just some tumbled furniture, pictures fallen of the walls and some cracks in the walls Feb 27 20:06:23 Flandry: sorry; actually, qwerty12 uploaded the 0.12.2-2maemo0 version Feb 27 20:06:33 the other uploaders disabled qt4 support from what I read here Feb 27 20:06:55 what a mess. Feb 27 20:06:59 Yes Feb 27 20:07:13 It can't be installed without forcing Feb 27 20:07:47 cehteh, no more Hildon Note! :P Feb 27 20:08:06 So qwerty's the one to fix that i guess? Feb 27 20:08:07 Are there any Class6 16GB microSDHCs? Feb 27 20:08:09 hm Feb 27 20:08:12 Or am I missing something? Feb 27 20:08:15 I can't find a DC-6 charger on DX Feb 27 20:08:49 Flandry: I'd ask tanner, just because he's the last one. Feb 27 20:09:26 s/last one/more recent one Feb 27 20:09:27 bbl Feb 27 20:09:37 May i ask how you found that? I'm doing a site search with google and not coming up with that Feb 27 20:12:47 hmm Feb 27 20:12:52 what was the N900's battery ? Feb 27 20:12:58 flickr sharing plugin bug: "quotes" in your title end up shown as " on the web Feb 27 20:13:42 Arif_, BL-5J Feb 27 20:13:47 ah Feb 27 20:13:51 thanks =} Feb 27 20:14:09 np :) Feb 27 20:15:24 http://cgi.ebay.nl/DESKTOP-BATTERY-CHARGER-FOR-NOKIA-BL-5J-5800-N900-X6-UK_W0QQitemZ200442859338QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_MobilePhones_MobilePhoneAccessories_MobilePhoneChargers?hash=item2eab534f4a Feb 27 20:15:27 so I could use this one? Feb 27 20:16:14 Arif_, only 2 pounds?! Feb 27 20:16:24 3 Feb 27 20:16:25 :P Feb 27 20:17:00 2.85 :P Feb 27 20:17:16 but still, wouldn't it affect the battery? Feb 27 20:17:44 I have two batteries, and charging them 1 by 1 isn't the easiest way Feb 27 20:18:33 Ok, anyone knows what is the current story on N900 memory card performance? Feb 27 20:18:44 Does it matter if I buy class2, class4, or class6 card? Feb 27 20:19:05 what are you going to do with it Feb 27 20:19:26 access it? Feb 27 20:19:41 store pr0n? Feb 27 20:19:43 record videos? Feb 27 20:19:47 RST38h: My cheap 1G card gets over 12M/s read Feb 27 20:19:56 I'd go for class 2 Feb 27 20:20:04 RST38h: reading from /dev/mmcblk[01] I get >27M/s Feb 27 20:20:11 at the same time with dd Feb 27 20:20:14 SpeedEvil: how about writing? Feb 27 20:20:15 they just want to screw you over anyway :) Feb 27 20:20:15 I have a 16G uh, whatever class is 2mb/sec, and it does video recording just fine. Feb 27 20:20:30 RST38h: writing is a whole nother story. Feb 27 20:20:43 you should read reviews anyway Feb 27 20:20:48 Class is minimum write speed Feb 27 20:21:00 I had class 4 cards that were faster than 6 :( Feb 27 20:25:20 might sell my 16GB card Feb 27 20:25:32 and buy a 32GB one, but it's too expensive :( Feb 27 20:25:35 * Arif_ waits for 32GB cards Feb 27 20:25:52 Arif_, why wait? You can order them now Feb 27 20:26:11 99.97 pounds Feb 27 20:26:28 Does anyone else have GMail synchronization setup and working? Calendar sync seems to be working fine, but contact sync is failing Feb 27 20:27:07 GAN900: wha? Feb 27 20:27:10 t Feb 27 20:27:12 and what makes you think I'll pay so much for that Feb 27 20:27:13 :P Feb 27 20:27:26 cehteh, the XChat plugin Feb 27 20:27:32 whats with it? Feb 27 20:27:43 cehteh, the Hildon Notes drive me crazy. :P Feb 27 20:27:47 use libnotify Feb 27 20:27:59 /notify_mode -db Feb 27 20:28:20 you changed it? Feb 27 20:28:54 for libnotify someone could add 'n' for the mode Feb 27 20:29:06 turning on/off libnotify stuff Feb 27 20:29:19 i just didnt cared enough Feb 27 20:29:48 gahh, why does the mad qmake and mad dpkg-buildpackage force my application to be installed with 644 permissions? Feb 27 20:30:08 Arif_, and how else would you get it? Feb 27 20:30:09 It needs to have executable permissions Feb 27 20:30:28 wait untill the prices drop :p Feb 27 20:31:37 how do I make the installer auto-set the permissions to 755 rather than 644? Feb 27 20:32:04 Milo-, how are you installing it in your debian/rules? Feb 27 20:32:28 Arif_, ah, when the 64GB cards get released Feb 27 20:32:28 I'm sure dpkg-buldpackage doesn't touch the permissions your build/install process (i.e. debian/rules) sets Feb 27 20:32:30 :p Feb 27 20:32:42 mgedmin that file is untouched Feb 27 20:32:49 huh Feb 27 20:32:57 * Arif_ has no hurry :D Feb 27 20:33:26 wait, "untouched"? Feb 27 20:33:33 http://codepad.org/4ijfsMV7 this is what the generator created Feb 27 20:33:45 'not modified' Feb 27 20:33:50 haven't touched it.. Feb 27 20:33:55 hehe Feb 27 20:33:56 okay, it runs "make install" Feb 27 20:34:01 what does your Makefile look like? Feb 27 20:34:24 it has 'install -m 644 -p' but I don't know why it automatically sets it to that Feb 27 20:34:27 probably autogenerated by qmake or something... Feb 27 20:34:32 yes Feb 27 20:34:34 I'm not familiar with qmake Feb 27 20:34:37 sadly Feb 27 20:34:51 you probably need to tell it somehow that this is an executable file Feb 27 20:35:13 I don't see an option for such Feb 27 20:35:44 can you pastebin your qmake source file? Feb 27 20:36:08 http://codepad.org/SWRhaNlk Feb 27 20:37:58 and the Makefile? Feb 27 20:39:37 it is autogenerated by qmake, so it makes very little difference.. http://paste.pocoo.org/show/jSgsMHIz6xwf4uZjAPta/ Feb 27 20:39:54 I'm just curious about qmake Feb 27 20:40:06 q-curious Feb 27 20:40:09 a quick google gave me http://doc.trolltech.com/3.0/qmake-guide.html Feb 27 20:40:15 which mentions nothing about file permissions Feb 27 20:40:22 but given TARGET it should realize it's an executable Feb 27 20:40:29 hm, 3.0? should I look for 4.0? Feb 27 20:40:30 yup Feb 27 20:40:40 4.5 even Feb 27 20:40:54 http://doc.trolltech.com/4.5/qmake-manual.html Feb 27 20:42:08 Milo-, huh? I see "INSTALL_PROGRAM = install -m 755 -p " in your paste Feb 27 20:42:23 mgedmin yes, but install_app has 644 Feb 27 20:42:28 and -$(INSTALL_PROGRAM) "build/$(QMAKE_TARGET)" "$(INSTALL_ROOT)/opt/maeremote/bin/$(QMAKE_TARGET)" Feb 27 20:42:35 where QMAKE_TARGET = MaeRemote Feb 27 20:42:36 apparently that sets it to 644 in the actual product Feb 27 20:42:52 "install_app" is not present at all in that file Feb 27 20:42:55 I'm confused now Feb 27 20:42:58 INSTALL_APP Feb 27 20:43:05 erm Feb 27 20:43:08 INSTALL_FILE Feb 27 20:43:09 chromium's search is case-insensitive Feb 27 20:43:10 sorry, Feb 27 20:43:15 yes, file is for non-executable files Feb 27 20:43:23 ah I see Feb 27 20:43:27 hmm Feb 27 20:43:28 isn't it MaeRemote that gets installed wrong? Feb 27 20:43:30 which file is it? Feb 27 20:43:32 yes Feb 27 20:44:02 /opt/maeremote/bin/MaeRemote gets installed with 644 permissions for weird reasons Feb 27 20:44:27 debian/maeremote.tarlist also says so Feb 27 20:44:43 but that file is autogenerated by buildpackage command Feb 27 20:44:50 can you check debian/maeremote/opt/maeremote/bin ? Feb 27 20:44:58 does the file in there have correct perms or not? Feb 27 20:45:08 * mgedmin loves bisecting for bugs Feb 27 20:45:22 yes it hasd Feb 27 20:45:23 -d Feb 27 20:45:49 interesting Feb 27 20:46:06 midnight commander can let you see inside .debs Feb 27 20:46:20 if you start mc and go inside the binary deb produced, can you check the permissions? Feb 27 20:46:32 IIRC alt-t toggles view modes, one of which shows file perms Feb 27 20:46:55 nah, executables are in different color and have a * in front of them anyway Feb 27 20:47:00 midnight commander? Feb 27 20:47:02 mc Feb 27 20:47:14 on n900? Feb 27 20:47:19 or in scratchbox Feb 27 20:47:27 don't have such command in n900 Feb 27 20:47:30 wherever you have the .deb file produced by dpkg-buildpackage Feb 27 20:47:36 you can install mc from extras-devel, I think Feb 27 20:47:40 ah Feb 27 20:47:43 did it make it into extras? Feb 27 20:47:53 anyway, it doesn't matter where you use mc Feb 27 20:48:08 I'd do that on my (linux) laptop anyway, the keyboard is better Feb 27 20:48:11 ;) Feb 27 20:48:20 heh Feb 27 20:48:36 then again, it's very unlikely that dpkg-buildpackage would take a mode 755 file and silently change the mode to 644 when packing the .deb Feb 27 20:48:46 I just found an SD card that sometimes doesn't do writes correctly if I do it at high speeds. Feb 27 20:48:50 "human" high speeds. Feb 27 20:48:53 but it's also unlikely that this happens when you install... Feb 27 20:49:00 installing it on my desktop now Feb 27 20:49:11 any chance of a VFAT partition getting in the way? those can't really represent file permissions Feb 27 20:49:33 nope nothing is installed in the vfat partition Feb 27 20:49:42 IOW I've no clue where the problem is, but it's not in your qmake config nor in debian/rules at least Feb 27 20:49:47 oh yay Feb 27 20:50:02 I opened bug 9315 :P Feb 27 20:50:03 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9315 Radio stops playing after low battery warning Feb 27 20:50:29 mgedmin okay got the mc Feb 27 20:50:59 doesn't show up as an executable Feb 27 20:51:19 interesting! Feb 27 20:51:28 Milo-, movies do the same as i found out last night Feb 27 20:51:34 i was 99% through an episode Feb 27 20:51:37 so it's executable in debian/maeremote, but not in the .deb Feb 27 20:51:39 and got low battery Feb 27 20:51:41 how on earth could that happen? Feb 27 20:51:57 sounds like fun... Feb 27 20:52:04 bloody pirates! Feb 27 20:52:14 who pirated what? Feb 27 20:52:22 pirates pirated pirates Feb 27 20:52:38 * Arif_ hands Milo- a pirated version of Angry Birds Feb 27 20:52:54 yarrr Feb 27 20:53:58 oi! Feb 27 20:54:04 developers worked hard to make those Feb 27 20:54:19 mgedmin maybe it is a madde bug.. Feb 27 20:54:31 its not easy making birds angry and takes a lot of practice Feb 27 20:55:21 it's not worth pirating anyway Feb 27 20:55:27 ;P Feb 27 20:55:32 mgedmin: i've seen a shitload of weird things like that within scratchbox. Feb 27 20:55:43 javispedro I'm not using scratchbox Feb 27 20:55:48 I am using madde and n900.. Feb 27 20:55:55 madde Feb 27 20:55:56 I haven't tried madde yet Feb 27 20:55:56 windows? Feb 27 20:55:57 gentoo, madde and n900 :) Feb 27 20:56:00 ah Feb 27 20:56:14 javispedro, what was the name of the gles book you were gonna get Feb 27 20:56:18 a 600-megabyte shell script is not something I'm going to download and blindly run, thank you very much Feb 27 20:56:26 mgedmin heh Feb 27 20:56:36 the shell script is actually just few kilos Feb 27 20:56:41 lcuk: the book I got ;) ; it's "OpenGL ES 2.0 Programming Guide" Feb 27 20:56:44 but for some reason nokia has stucked the binary code inside the shell script :D Feb 27 20:56:45 yeah, it's a shar archive I bet Feb 27 20:56:55 is it good Feb 27 20:57:16 mgedmin but saves tons of trouble to use madde instead of crapbox :) Feb 27 20:57:36 except when it was time to build the package :D Feb 27 20:57:40 like the permissions issue you have now? Feb 27 20:57:44 let me know how that goes Feb 27 20:57:45 :P Feb 27 20:57:48 lcuk: I learned quite a lot from it. my only gripe is that it talks little about 1.1 (which is to be expected). Feb 27 20:58:00 I think I'll make a thread to Talk Feb 27 20:58:01 * mgedmin ordered a 120 GB SSD today Feb 27 20:58:03 so we need 1.1 or can we use both Feb 27 20:58:06 or is 1.1 only for the n810 Feb 27 20:58:10 lcuk: if you want it as a tutorial I think it's good Feb 27 20:58:11 nice mgedmin Feb 27 20:58:13 * mgedmin doesn't know if he'll bother reinstalling scratchbox when he gets it Feb 27 20:58:14 1.1 only for n810 Feb 27 20:58:20 right, good thanks Feb 27 20:58:21 maybe it'll be time to try out MADDE Feb 27 20:58:23 n900 has both now Feb 27 20:58:36 yeah are you managing to use it as you need? Feb 27 20:58:38 now I've got scratchbox installed years ago, so the pain is past Feb 27 20:58:59 scratchbox on ubuntu is a breeze nowadays Feb 27 20:59:02 with the gui installer Feb 27 20:59:13 they made a gui installer? ooh aah Feb 27 20:59:19 I wouldn't trust it anyway Feb 27 20:59:19 Madde might have speciall logic for executable perms Feb 27 20:59:26 considering windows doesn't implement those. Feb 27 20:59:26 give me .debs Feb 27 20:59:36 mgedmin, what make/model? Feb 27 20:59:41 mgedmin, of course for a pro like yourself thats the expected way Feb 27 20:59:43 or a shell script I can read and interpreted myself, one command at a time Feb 27 20:59:50 but for n00bs its simpler to step through Feb 27 21:00:09 ShadowJK, Intel X25-M with a lot of qualifications I don't really understand (MLC -- okay, I know what *that* is, 34NM -- huh?) Feb 27 21:00:22 Forget about MLC and 34 nm Feb 27 21:00:23 lcuk, s/pro/paranoid person/ Feb 27 21:00:27 It's all about the controller Feb 27 21:00:31 mgedmin, one and the same Feb 27 21:00:35 and intel is both kicking ass, and proven Feb 27 21:00:49 then there were models ending in G2C1 and G2R4 (or was it R5?) Feb 27 21:00:52 I got the C1 one Feb 27 21:00:58 because the other one was out of stock Feb 27 21:01:31 bah, I was already starting to forget how cool the n900 was. Feb 27 21:01:34 bit on the expensive side, but recent blog posts about 7-second Ubuntu boot time cinched it Feb 27 21:01:48 though everytime I use the n810 I have the urge to try diablo's h-d on the n900 :) Feb 27 21:02:25 what's h-d? Feb 27 21:02:30 hildon-desktop, I mean. Feb 27 21:02:34 interesting Feb 27 21:03:03 the only things I miss from my n810 are the half-size virtual keyboard, bluetooth file sending and SMB browsing in the file manager Feb 27 21:03:13 and I miss the task navigator Feb 27 21:03:15 and the kickstand, maybe Feb 27 21:03:32 I love the new task navigator, but wish it let me reorder apps by dragging Feb 27 21:03:56 what about the craptastic speakers :P Feb 27 21:05:32 There's a quote for my wall: mgedmin: i've seen a shitload of weird things like that within scratchbox. Feb 27 21:06:20 "I've seen things you humans wouldn't believe: sunrise on Titan, permission bits disappearing into the void inside scratchbox, ..." Feb 27 21:06:37 my current explanation is that "fakeroot" has a limited buffer size. Feb 27 21:06:45 All these things fade. Like charged gates in the rain. Feb 27 21:06:49 mgedmin, i believe the permission bits Feb 27 21:06:56 ntfs has a healthy habit of that itself Feb 27 21:07:02 that's only because you were there Feb 27 21:07:14 javispedro: ! Feb 27 21:07:17 interesting theory Feb 27 21:07:24 is it true? Feb 27 21:07:35 doesn't fakeroot stop and complain loudly when this happens? Feb 27 21:07:40 dunno, didn't even look at the code. Feb 27 21:07:52 nah, I don't believe it Feb 27 21:08:03 fakeroot is used for all kinds of huge packages all the time (think: openoffice) Feb 27 21:08:18 true. Feb 27 21:08:57 hm... but this is sbox's own years-old fakeroot we're talking about. Feb 27 21:09:19 openoffice wasn't written yesterday... Feb 27 21:09:48 openoffice was written 5 years ago either Feb 27 21:09:58 touché. so back to "a wizard hides my execute permission bits". Feb 27 21:10:41 "or gives back ownership of them to user -- instead of root" Feb 27 21:11:07 the wizards are subtle and quick to anger Feb 27 21:11:37 * mgedmin ponders stracing the dpkg-buildpackage and grepping the log for MaeRemote, then looking for chmod()/fchmod() calls Feb 27 21:11:51 no, wait, the permissions are right on the fs Feb 27 21:12:00 * mgedmin is flummoxed again Feb 27 21:12:24 okay, another question, where do I place the pictures in the project which my UI uses? Feb 27 21:12:27 * javispedro once added two chmod -R calls "just to be sure" Feb 27 21:12:56 currently my UI has few pictures, but when I execute my binary, those pictures doesn't show up, unless those pictures are in the CWD. Feb 27 21:13:29 but if I want those pictures to show up on default, how should I create my build directories ? Feb 27 21:14:21 while on the topic of magic, https://garage.maemo.org/builder/diablo/old/201001/corsixth_0.0.0-beta1-0maemo3/armel.build.log.FAILED.txt Feb 27 21:14:24 well, the Debian way would be: make sure your package installs them in /usr/share/yourpkgname/picture1.png etc. Feb 27 21:14:30 and have your app load them from that location Feb 27 21:14:44 see the error message and the different "stat file" commands I've put there for debuggin. Feb 27 21:14:50 the Maemo way would be: make sure your package installs them in /opt/maemo/usr/share/yourpkgname/picture1.png and loads them from that location Feb 27 21:15:26 mgedmin both ways are not very developer-friendly :) Feb 27 21:15:38 lol Feb 27 21:15:50 sudo su works on the N900 lol Feb 27 21:15:56 didn't work before Feb 27 21:16:04 oh Feb 27 21:16:17 developer friendly directories? Feb 27 21:16:28 Milo-, are you a windows developer? Feb 27 21:16:31 no Feb 27 21:16:41 what do you work in? Feb 27 21:16:44 MohammadAG: the "didn't work before" part is true; but it doesn't work here, asks me for root password. Feb 27 21:16:57 javispedro, 128-char pathname limit? Feb 27 21:17:05 mgedmin: 128-char _only_? Feb 27 21:17:17 lcuk just don't like filling my /usr/share/ with pictures while I'm trying to develop something :P Feb 27 21:17:19 I dunno, I was just wondering Feb 27 21:17:21 if that explains it I'm going to kill someone. Feb 27 21:17:25 seems short Feb 27 21:17:27 I like to keep my pictures in my git repo Feb 27 21:17:37 Milo-, but if its your app folder you can Feb 27 21:17:42 cos you can uninstall reinstall Feb 27 21:17:56 if its user pictures, look in /home/user/* Feb 27 21:17:56 true but installing and uninstalling, what a mess Feb 27 21:18:08 make clean && make && ./a.out \o/ Feb 27 21:18:16 Milo-, yeah, I like my apps to run from the current directory without installing too Feb 27 21:18:22 mgedmin: fortunately, while it is 100% reproducible on the diablo autobuilder, it works OK on the fremantle autobuilder and on my local scratchbox setup. Feb 27 21:18:22 so you are on device developing Feb 27 21:18:37 javispedro, http://i45.tinypic.com/2vd1ngz.jpg Feb 27 21:18:40 so I usually do something if file_exists('/usr/share/myapp/img.png'), use that, otherwise fall back to ./images/img.png Feb 27 21:18:49 i made original liqbase look in 2 places for its app data (including media) Feb 27 21:19:07 if i ran it from my dev folder /media/mmc/svn/liqbase it would see the media inside mmc Feb 27 21:19:12 MohammadAG: now you're going to have to guess which extras package has added a NOPASSWD "su" entry in your sudoers Feb 27 21:19:18 otherwise from an installed system it would find it in /usr/share/liqbase Feb 27 21:19:55 lcuk that is not a bad idea actually Feb 27 21:20:05 though, only place where I use pictures, is in css. Feb 27 21:20:14 javispedro, I just tried echo '/home/builder1/maemo-diablo-armel-extras-devel/work/corsixth-0.0.0-beta1/debian/corsixth-data/usr/share/games/CorsixTH/CorsixTH'|wc -c and got back 128 Feb 27 21:20:15 how do I check for existance in css? :P Feb 27 21:20:35 especially when my GUI has been created with qtdesigner Feb 27 21:20:42 javispedro, I would probably try to rename the CorsixTH file to something shorter and upload it to the autobuilder, just to test the 127-char filename limit Feb 27 21:20:52 hypothesis Feb 27 21:21:01 mgedmin: yeah, sounds plausible Feb 27 21:21:02 Milo-, those are very good questions Feb 27 21:21:03 maybe I should move the stylesheet from stylesheet file to constructor Feb 27 21:21:07 javis: BTW, CorsixTH never worked for me Feb 27 21:21:17 javis: Is there something I am missing? Feb 27 21:21:23 RST38h: yes, it's not install-and-run Feb 27 21:21:29 Milo-, I'd be inclined to cargo-cult, i.e. find some open-source app using qt and images then see how it was made Feb 27 21:21:34 RST38h: you have to copy the hospital files manually, edit some config files, etc. Feb 27 21:21:40 ohh Feb 27 21:21:44 it's not really cargo-culting if you understand how something works when you copy it Feb 27 21:22:29 javispedro, if you do guess which one it is, tell me lol Feb 27 21:22:46 lcuk, if you're looking for reading matter, I suggest Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series Feb 27 21:22:49 cargo-cult? What a weird expression Feb 27 21:22:58 ooh a series Feb 27 21:22:59 does anyone know how to disable the boot logo? Feb 27 21:23:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming Feb 27 21:23:07 i dont like reading individual books Feb 27 21:23:11 kernel-flasher-maemo used to have it disabled Feb 27 21:23:14 i tend to get into the story and want more Feb 27 21:23:18 * mgedmin nods Feb 27 21:23:29 oooh Feb 27 21:23:39 Not the same as "borrowing code" Feb 27 21:23:41 im spying peter hamilton Feb 27 21:23:49 hes got some decent series available Feb 27 21:24:30 * mgedmin wonders if freenode has a channel for book-lovers Feb 27 21:24:37 speaking of cargo cults, TI84+SE emulation is not coming. Yet. Feb 27 21:24:51 mgedmin: Undernet #bookz. Feb 27 21:25:11 "Other interpretations include: threatening your computer with a shotgun until it has been debugged." Feb 27 21:25:14 Looks like TI84+SE protects its ROM really well =) Feb 27 21:25:53 * mgedmin wants to talk book recommendations, not swap around pirated bookz Feb 27 21:25:58 heh if i'd actually red that book on my shelf i'd have known the term Feb 27 21:26:04 read* Feb 27 21:26:22 At least my library is well-read Feb 27 21:26:45 :) /me remembers his dad's 1979 TI calculator fondly Feb 27 21:27:00 those happy red LEDs... Feb 27 21:27:01 * mgedmin first learned that term from Niven's _Dream Park_ Feb 27 21:27:21 * mgedmin then remembers being surprised that people had to explain what "cargo cult" is when introducing "cargo cult programming" etc. Feb 27 21:28:12 Only Niven book i have read is ringworld and lucifer's hammer Feb 27 21:28:35 mgedmin: talking books recommendations is a bad idea Feb 27 21:28:39 i first heard of cargo cullts from Feynman's autobiography Feb 27 21:28:55 mgedmin: as tastes differ, a lot Feb 27 21:28:56 yeah that's the one on my shelf i haven't read Feb 27 21:28:57 RST38h, whaddayamean, I'm out of books to read and am climbing walls Feb 27 21:29:09 okay, tastes differ, true Feb 27 21:29:16 mgedmin: Can I suggest Lithuanian Criminal Code? =) Feb 27 21:29:18 (everyone is wrong except me, of course) Feb 27 21:29:24 * RST38h cackles evilly Feb 27 21:29:45 Mistborn series? Feb 27 21:29:50 RST38h, if I'd wanted to read that, I'd have gone into law school Feb 27 21:30:02 I liked the implementation of magics for that Feb 27 21:30:08 But anyway, what genre/subgenre do you feel like reading? Feb 27 21:30:24 * mgedmin likes SF Feb 27 21:30:50 I think I got the Mistborn e-book when tor.com had that promotional campaing for their new website Feb 27 21:30:52 mgedmin: more specific? Feb 27 21:31:12 There's always the Lensman series if you want to indulge your adolescent side :P Feb 27 21:31:28 specifics are hard... Feb 27 21:31:29 I've recently been enjoying http://www.temeraire.org/ in that vein. Feb 27 21:31:40 Hornblower + dragons. Feb 27 21:31:47 * mgedmin read them, liked them Feb 27 21:32:11 I like Poul Anderson's work Feb 27 21:32:18 Lois McMaster Bujold, Charles Stross, Terry Pratchett, Steven Brust Feb 27 21:32:27 Eric Flint's works are fun to read Feb 27 21:32:31 All good. Feb 27 21:32:33 mgedmin: Ok. Try Blindsight by Peter Watts. Available from his web site for free. Feb 27 21:32:35 as well as David Eddings's Feb 27 21:32:40 ooh, Peter Watts Feb 27 21:32:41 * SpeedEvil has been reading 163[0-9] Feb 27 21:32:51 Karl Schroeder also has a free ebook on his website Feb 27 21:32:55 He pays a lot of attention to details and has good problem/solution adventures Feb 27 21:33:05 mgedmin: Although I am afraid it will be somewhat too cerebral after reading Bujold and Pratchett Feb 27 21:33:12 http://www.baen.com/library/ Feb 27 21:33:18 free SF library Feb 27 21:33:26 the problems with writers like Bujold and Pratchett is that almost anything else feels like a letdown after them Feb 27 21:33:45 mm... Feb 27 21:34:00 Now you have created a problem Feb 27 21:34:08 hmm that sounds like a challenge Feb 27 21:34:21 * mgedmin forgot to mention Robin McKinley Feb 27 21:34:36 But should be doable, just gimme a moment Feb 27 21:34:39 I like Jim Butcher's dresden PI Feb 27 21:34:49 Jack McDevitt has some nice scifi Feb 27 21:34:51 almost threw the second book at the wall, then it got really good Feb 27 21:35:16 * mgedmin is currently reading T. A. Pratt's Marla Mason series Feb 27 21:35:24 Baen has some silly books. Programming magic. Feb 27 21:35:30 Robin Cook? Feb 27 21:35:33 Rick Cook Feb 27 21:35:34 got bored in book 3 Feb 27 21:35:38 er, yes Feb 27 21:35:39 yeah. Feb 27 21:35:44 It might have been robin Feb 27 21:35:45 damn pdf Feb 27 21:35:48 Rick Feb 27 21:35:56 mgedmin: Robert Asprin? Feb 27 21:35:56 my fingers cached the 'Robin' Feb 27 21:36:04 ha Feb 27 21:36:14 lcuk, https://code.launchpad.net/~mgedmin/+junk/pdf2html makes PDFs readable in fbreader Feb 27 21:36:23 mgedmin: Ursula Leguin? Feb 27 21:36:25 Loved the myth series back in the day Feb 27 21:36:30 im on about windas expee Feb 27 21:36:41 Myth* is very good light reading. Feb 27 21:36:41 mgedmin: Anything by Zelazny? Feb 27 21:36:47 I liked _Another Fine Myth_ when I first read it (a LT translation by the local SF publisher), didn't quite enjoy it when I re-read it in English years later Feb 27 21:36:52 mgedmin: (including the satanic cycle) Feb 27 21:37:12 Zelazny is not bad Feb 27 21:37:24 I read some things by Ursula LeGuin, don't quite remember my reaction Feb 27 21:37:39 zaheerm: did your problems with msn-pecan got fixed? Feb 27 21:37:58 Glen Cook is worth a read too. The black company are some of the best done series I've seen. Feb 27 21:37:58 * RST38h is really careful to only choose teenage stuff Feb 27 21:38:21 Legionaire era merceneries in a land with magic. Feb 27 21:38:22 mgedmin; Brian Jacques? Feb 27 21:38:26 * lcuk throws pdf out the window and loses mails he was writing Feb 27 21:38:31 bah Feb 27 21:38:34 Zelazny was my favorite teenage stuff. Feb 27 21:38:39 I lost my pen Feb 27 21:38:39 :( Feb 27 21:38:51 lcuk, poppler-utils can be built on Windows; Python also works on Windows, so if you have a PDF you want to read very much, you can hack it Feb 27 21:38:54 Chronicles of Amber fun Feb 27 21:39:02 * RST38h reread Zelazny at 30 and could not understand how he could read that Feb 27 21:39:09 * SpeedEvil walks the pattern. Feb 27 21:39:10 RST38h, Brian Jacuqes is the first name I don't recognize Feb 27 21:39:11 mgedmin, its just a few pdfs that shouldnt be a problem - single pagers Feb 27 21:39:16 Hell, I even liked The Black Throne back then. Feb 27 21:39:18 yeah haha true Feb 27 21:39:22 that if i had known they were gonna lock up my machine i wouldv exported Feb 27 21:39:24 mgedmin: Mice. Mice in armor. Many, many mice. Feb 27 21:39:26 I am not stupid enough to go back and read it now. Feb 27 21:39:31 even if I spelt it correctly ;) Feb 27 21:39:31 heh Feb 27 21:39:34 Niven. Feb 27 21:39:36 mgedmin: Other small furry animals in armor too Feb 27 21:39:41 * SpeedEvil wants a scrith case for his n900. Feb 27 21:39:43 niven == god Feb 27 21:39:43 ooh, how could I've forgotten to mention Neal Stephenson? Feb 27 21:39:44 first 5 results on "n900 stylus" search on google leads to maemo.org Feb 27 21:39:52 * mgedmin liked _The Mote in God's Eye_ Feb 27 21:39:53 lol SpeedEvil Feb 27 21:39:58 that and a variable sword Feb 27 21:40:06 mgedmin: Heinlein. Feb 27 21:40:16 lcuk: naah. Swap the flash LED for a tasp. Feb 27 21:40:18 meh Feb 27 21:40:23 I _think_ I read everything by Heinlein Feb 27 21:40:28 Ok Feb 27 21:40:29 mgedmin, the mote was good, reminded me of linux enthusiasts Feb 27 21:40:32 mgedmin: Harrison? Feb 27 21:40:33 Heinlein is also one that i can't read again now Feb 27 21:40:38 building and making full use of everything around em Feb 27 21:40:47 good comparison Feb 27 21:40:50 did you read the followup Feb 27 21:41:09 * lcuk digs into memorybank for the name Feb 27 21:41:09 what was it called? Feb 27 21:41:14 felipec, yep, been working very well since the last package you gave me which disabled offline messages, thx Feb 27 21:41:19 mgedmin: Martin? =) Feb 27 21:41:28 lcuk, _The Gripping Hand_ IIRC Feb 27 21:41:37 yeha Feb 27 21:41:39 George R. R. Martin? Feb 27 21:41:41 how nice to see favorite chatters here this evening Feb 27 21:41:49 zaheerm: cool :) offline messages are now enabled, but should work now Feb 27 21:41:52 mgedmin: Sapkovsky? Feb 27 21:41:58 (not SF, but the first Martin I thought of) Feb 27 21:41:58 mgedmin: Oldi? Feb 27 21:42:00 Oh, i don't think i read that Feb 27 21:42:06 Diamond Age. Feb 27 21:42:09 * RST38h ran out of teenage stuff Feb 27 21:42:15 yeah, I'd love to know how life pans out for Arya, but I'm not holding my breath Feb 27 21:42:38 Good followup? Feb 27 21:42:38 mgedmin: Pullman? Gaiman? Feb 27 21:42:39 RST38h, the Witcher guy? Played the game, never read any of his books Feb 27 21:42:44 stephensons books kinda just finish unexp Feb 27 21:42:46 I loved a couple of books by Oldi Feb 27 21:43:01 Gaiman rules Feb 27 21:43:02 mgedmin: You will like Sapkovski. Feb 27 21:43:25 Pullman ... I liked The Golden Compass, was disappointed by the other two Feb 27 21:43:28 Err, somehow I'm confusing GRRM with Martin Cruz Smith. Feb 27 21:43:30 Well, Gaiman is borderline teenage stuff Feb 27 21:43:39 snowcrash kicked ass Feb 27 21:43:39 Both Martins with too many names. Feb 27 21:43:54 RST38h: Good Omens was awesome. Feb 27 21:44:03 SpeedEvil++ Feb 27 21:44:12 m25 Feb 27 21:44:12 SpeedEvil, scrith or hull material btw Feb 27 21:44:25 Beyond Gaiman, there is insanity, drug use, and general misantropy Feb 27 21:44:40 lcuk: hull material for the screen, scrith for the case. Feb 27 21:44:50 felipec, ok great, is your latest package in extras-testing yet? Feb 27 21:44:56 but scrith comes into its own at orbital scale Feb 27 21:45:01 mgedmin: But ok, let us say Muse of Fire by Simmons Feb 27 21:45:03 If you want insanity, drug use, and general misantropy, you want PKD. Feb 27 21:45:08 you can paint hull material Feb 27 21:45:13 PKD failed to click with me Feb 27 21:45:28 * mgedmin not a big fan of insanity, drug use or general misantropy Feb 27 21:45:33 flow my tears. Feb 27 21:45:43 derf: Naah, the guy was a dick. Feb 27 21:45:46 scrith Feb 27 21:45:50 zaheerm: no, the one I released today is only on -devel, probably tomorrow I'll push it to -testing Feb 27 21:46:00 Harlan Elison is strange. Feb 27 21:46:03 derf: Besides, we will end up with Burroughs at this rate Feb 27 21:46:04 RST38h: I don't want to be his friend, I just want to read his books. Feb 27 21:46:11 "I have no mouth and I must scream" Feb 27 21:46:11 whos read the new niven books? fleet|juggler|destroyer of worlds | Feb 27 21:46:19 felipec, ok will test it tomorrow in any case whether it is in -devel or -testing Feb 27 21:46:22 lcuk: I got very dissapointed Feb 27 21:46:28 I mean, Harlan Ellison does't win personality contests, either. Feb 27 21:46:33 true Feb 27 21:46:42 But then I am not reading him Feb 27 21:46:42 lcuk: I haven't read the newer ones after a _massive_ dissapointment Feb 27 21:46:47 Dull shit. Feb 27 21:46:47 Not many writers do? Feb 27 21:46:49 zaheerm: thanks :) Feb 27 21:47:04 i liked them, was gonna read them all whatever, but it was a decent storyline Feb 27 21:47:26 felipec, no worries, keep up the good work...i only do IM on my n900 now Feb 27 21:47:26 it would be hard to outdo the rest of the known space ringworld setting books Feb 27 21:47:43 Sadly most of my reading was as a teen so that's my repertoire Feb 27 21:47:54 felipec, that's why my nexusone google gave me, i only use for google maps Feb 27 21:47:55 Wen Spencer is a good read usually. Feb 27 21:48:02 Stainless steel rat Feb 27 21:48:04 Flandry, the good thing about good books is they are timeless Feb 27 21:48:15 so you can talk about them as if you read them yesterday Feb 27 21:48:19 SSR was my introduction to SF Feb 27 21:48:19 'Tinker' - protagonist is a female scrapyard operator. Feb 27 21:48:26 felipec, silly device for im with no keyboard...and i use sms/im more than voice on my phone Feb 27 21:48:29 it was also the reason I learned to read Russian Feb 27 21:48:36 oh wait Feb 27 21:48:38 Well, yeah, but my tastes have changed, and my hormone levels ;) Feb 27 21:48:40 mhm some progress meter for downloading maps would be nice .. but well i prolly should started it with downloading the whole county Feb 27 21:48:44 heh Feb 27 21:48:46 mgedmin: Farmer. Feb 27 21:48:46 felipec, and pecan is the best of the 3 msn options Feb 27 21:48:49 playboy is your usual now :p Feb 27 21:48:51 shoudnt Feb 27 21:49:15 cehteh: where from? Feb 27 21:49:27 more like chemistry and materials references Feb 27 21:49:34 that's not really pleasure reading though Feb 27 21:49:37 germany Feb 27 21:49:50 south/western part Feb 27 21:49:57 mgedmin, totally different topoic, gtimelog - what would be required to tie it in with monitoring irc chans for its entries Feb 27 21:49:59 I prefer well constructed self-consistent detailed fantasy worlds. Feb 27 21:50:00 cehteh, what mapping app? Feb 27 21:50:06 cehteh: I meant what source. Feb 27 21:50:09 maemo mapper Feb 27 21:50:12 osm Feb 27 21:50:19 what else :P Feb 27 21:50:22 maemo-mapper used to make my n810 run out of RAM and crash if I tried to download too many maps (like over 25 megs) Feb 27 21:50:26 zaheerm: yeah, I also do IM on my N900 now... the keyboard is pretty decent Feb 27 21:50:38 but m-m has a progress bar for the downloading... Feb 27 21:50:40 felipec: surprisingly so. Feb 27 21:50:47 there was an update today which fixed the map download stuff, seems it works fine now Feb 27 21:50:48 felipec, i never use my desktp, that is how good the n900 im experience is Feb 27 21:50:49 have you read "The High Crusade" by Anderson? That's a fun little sci-fi read Feb 27 21:50:50 cehteh: osm2go is good. Feb 27 21:50:52 but needs a lot of ram Feb 27 21:50:56 Flandry: yup. Feb 27 21:51:00 Flandry, yep Feb 27 21:51:33 It's the one i recommend to non-scifi readers Feb 27 21:51:37 Oh wait Feb 27 21:51:41 and I have all my accounts there, now even facebook :p Feb 27 21:51:49 mgedmin: Snegov, all three books =) Feb 27 21:51:56 felipec, does facebook chat work for you? Feb 27 21:52:08 it rejects my login since yesterday Feb 27 21:52:17 RST38h, Sne-who? Feb 27 21:52:25 another unfamiliar name Feb 27 21:52:51 mgedmin: http://www.lib.ru/RUFANT/SNEGOW/ Feb 27 21:52:59 mgedmin, using Jabber? Feb 27 21:53:00 mgedmin: No wonder, you are too young to remember :) Feb 27 21:53:01 my knowledge of Russian SF is small Feb 27 21:53:05 MohammadAG, yes Feb 27 21:53:07 keeps saying Network Error here Feb 27 21:53:21 mgedmin, how long did it take you to learn russian Feb 27 21:53:24 I read a few books back before I learned to pay attention to things like author names Feb 27 21:53:25 ovi chat does the same Feb 27 21:53:26 mgedmin: In short, the pretty much the first attempt at space opera in Russian Feb 27 21:53:35 didn't like most of them, started ignoring the whole field Feb 27 21:53:45 * SpeedEvil tries to think of russian SF. Feb 27 21:53:52 liked Lukyanenko's _Labyrinth of Mirrors_ later Feb 27 21:53:57 Stanislaw Lem. Nope, polish I guess Feb 27 21:54:01 mgedmin: yeah, works fine through XMPP Feb 27 21:54:09 mgedmin: Urgh. You are making it really difficult to suggest anything. Feb 27 21:54:11 felipec, thanks! Feb 27 21:54:17 so it's a problem on my end, not facebook's Feb 27 21:54:21 mgedmin, works for me fine with jabber Feb 27 21:54:29 mgedmin: I mean... Luk'yanenko... urgh, Feb 27 21:54:50 RST38h, don't worry, I heard a few suggestions of things I haven't read and am interested Feb 27 21:54:54 like _Mistborn_ Feb 27 21:55:07 I think FBReader didn't like the .zip tor gave me Feb 27 21:55:09 peter hamilton does space opera Feb 27 21:55:15 it has a .opf file inside referring to a file that doesn't exist Feb 27 21:55:23 I'll need to unzip and fix it on the laptop first Feb 27 21:55:35 lcuk, yup, read it, wasn't bad Feb 27 21:55:38 better than okay even Feb 27 21:55:40 mgedmin, if you find a fix do highlight me :) Feb 27 21:55:54 mgedmin, which books of his Feb 27 21:55:59 MohammadAG, Google Talk often gives me "Network Error" Feb 27 21:55:59 I've tried killing telepathy, but kilalll keeps saying no process killed Feb 27 21:56:02 i was planning on getting the first from a few of his series Feb 27 21:56:08 facebook tells me "authentication failed" Feb 27 21:56:10 mgedmin, a reboot should fix that Feb 27 21:56:11 and then following the rest Feb 27 21:56:18 says Network error here Feb 27 21:56:43 The N900 keeps trying to connect too, the battery went flat in 2 hours Feb 27 21:57:28 lcuk, sorry, missed your question in the deluge Feb 27 21:57:39 dont worry Feb 27 21:57:53 Anyway - the baen free library is a very good sampling of hte field. Feb 27 21:57:53 im getting a batch of his books and will just follow which look good Feb 27 21:58:19 Worth downloading for use with fbreader. Feb 27 21:58:22 lcuk, the Mindstar Rising trilogy, the Commonwealth Saga and, Night's Dawn series Feb 27 21:58:29 also _Fallen Dragon_ Feb 27 21:58:44 baen ++ Feb 27 21:58:54 that's where I found Eric Flint Feb 27 21:59:25 hamilton is very worth a read too. Feb 27 21:59:40 yeah, and not just worth it, hes prolific Feb 27 21:59:45 * mgedmin would give hamilton a 3.5 or 4 out of 5 Feb 27 21:59:52 so if you like his style you can keep reading for ages Feb 27 22:00:12 it is gripping, yes Feb 27 22:00:40 then again I finished Terry Goodkind's _Sword of Truth_ series, despite increasing temptation to throw books at walls Feb 27 22:00:59 what helped me was that I had no clue about US politics or libertarianism back when I was reading it Feb 27 22:01:16 i think thats the same for most us government people ;) Feb 27 22:01:21 * javispedro files a bug that's already fixed in Harmattan Feb 27 22:01:25 Richard K Morgan - 'Altered Carbon'. Think the stainless steel rat + nanotech + bond + explosions. Feb 27 22:01:31 Very awesome. Feb 27 22:01:33 ooh, Morgan is fun Feb 27 22:01:37 javispedro, mm whats dat Feb 27 22:01:40 except that I hated _Market Forces_ Feb 27 22:02:03 lcuk: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9316 , part of the albumart crazyness stuff I was commenting previously Feb 27 22:02:04 Bug 9316: Tracker doesn't run album art heuristics for non-mp3 audio files Feb 27 22:02:05 loved all his other books Feb 27 22:02:30 hi, does anybody know how to boot maemo from SD card? Feb 27 22:02:45 t-tan, there used to be a wiki page describing that Feb 27 22:02:47 I never tried it myself Feb 27 22:02:53 sounds awesome Feb 27 22:02:54 I think you have to install bootmenu Feb 27 22:03:05 @speedevil Feb 27 22:03:13 i followed http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Documentation/Bootmenu boot it always reboots... Feb 27 22:03:24 ah :( Feb 27 22:04:17 t-tan, did u disable the watchdog? Feb 27 22:04:42 MohammadAG: good idea! I should do that Feb 27 22:04:43 John Ringo is very good for explosions and high-tech soldiery. Feb 27 22:04:54 hmm Feb 27 22:05:00 where can I buy an N900 stylus Feb 27 22:05:23 a 100 bucks and I'll send mine to you Feb 27 22:05:26 Arif_: ebay Feb 27 22:05:28 with free shipping Feb 27 22:05:40 "Sex, violence, destruction of property" - three qualities of good sf according to Heinlein Feb 27 22:05:52 genius. Feb 27 22:06:06 RST38h: ringo tends to tick all those boxes. Not usually at the same time though. Feb 27 22:06:15 * Arif_ sends MohammadAG Zimbabwean 100$ Feb 27 22:06:24 lol Feb 27 22:06:28 * RST38h stopped reading this kind of stuff long time ago =( Feb 27 22:07:06 Arif_, http://www.klc.fi/fin/tuotteet/Nokia-Varaosat-N900 Feb 27 22:07:17 hmm Feb 27 22:07:30 they sell 3 packs Feb 27 22:08:03 (1, or 2/3 packs) Feb 27 22:08:22 what weird language is that Feb 27 22:08:23 xD Feb 27 22:08:41 the language of mordor Feb 27 22:09:07 I hope they accept paypal Feb 27 22:09:27 You can't just paypal into mordor. Feb 27 22:09:28 Arif_, finnish :) Feb 27 22:09:45 you can't? Feb 27 22:09:46 Ah, so it *is* the language of Mordor Feb 27 22:09:49 mordor finnish Feb 27 22:10:25 a "buy" button would be nice Feb 27 22:10:26 :O Feb 27 22:10:27 Mordor: land of of the midnight sun and idyllic lakes Feb 27 22:10:43 oh it's just hidden Feb 27 22:10:45 and yay Feb 27 22:10:47 paypal Feb 27 22:10:50 Arif_, they do accept paypal! http://www.klc.fi/fin/ohje-en.php/ Feb 27 22:10:54 I'm trying to convince myself that $500 for a phone isn't too ludicrous. Dell has the n900 for $480 w/free ship. Any cheaper prices out there? Feb 27 22:11:12 colonelqubit, please tell me they ship overseas ;) Feb 27 22:11:25 Call it a mobile computer and it will be easier to convince yourself ;) Feb 27 22:11:29 they're €600 here Feb 27 22:11:31 Arif_, http://www.klc.fi/fin/ohje-en.php/ Feb 27 22:11:45 And remember to count insurance. Feb 27 22:11:48 well, 500 GBP Feb 27 22:12:01 SpeedEvil: "Dear Sauron, your Paypal account has been temporarily suspended for inappropriate activity, including taking a hit out on two little people. Sincerely, The PayPal Team" Feb 27 22:12:17 a hit ? Feb 27 22:12:25 * RST38h calls his "my precioussss" Feb 27 22:12:26 * mgedmin found a 515 EUR deal for a N900 locally Feb 27 22:12:28 Arif: rather, a contract Feb 27 22:12:45 accidentally eating them or something, I suppose Feb 27 22:13:01 * javispedro has been calling his own "my preciousssss" for quite a while today, after 26 days of it being away. Feb 27 22:13:03 * Arif_ orders 3 styli Feb 27 22:13:08 "Dear Sauron, your order for the one ring has been delayed." Feb 27 22:13:20 javis: ah how have you survived? Feb 27 22:13:26 * Arif_ calls his N900 a toy :D Feb 27 22:13:39 RST38h: n810, basically. Feb 27 22:13:55 * mgedmin calls his N900 his "nokia", and his 6600 slide his "phone" Feb 27 22:14:01 technically they're both Nokia phones Feb 27 22:14:06 ah right Feb 27 22:14:23 * Arif_ has the original 6600 Feb 27 22:14:31 well, n900 is "neopadlog" as far as network names are concerned Feb 27 22:14:54 * mgedmin is insufficiently inventive and calls his mg-n900-2.local Feb 27 22:14:59 SpeedEvil: Insurance for a $500, what was it?, ah yes, "mobile computer" might not be a bad idea, but it isn't cheap. 1 year is $64. Feb 27 22:15:10 colonelqubit: no, it's not. Feb 27 22:15:21 But neither is finding you sat on it, and have to replace it. Feb 27 22:15:25 I refer to mine as the "en dokuzyüz" too :P Feb 27 22:15:30 SpeedEvil: fair 'nuff Feb 27 22:15:41 * mgedmin 's had a little accident with a teapot Feb 27 22:15:42 I figure that sitting on it has a rather higher percentage than 10% Feb 27 22:15:59 mgedmin it didn't like tea? Feb 27 22:16:01 how often do you plan to sit on it? Feb 27 22:16:11 Arif_, it survived unscathed, thankfully Feb 27 22:16:12 it all depends on that answer. Feb 27 22:16:19 javispedro: I sat on my last two laptops. Feb 27 22:16:22 I want a stylus insureance Feb 27 22:16:26 javispedro, "expect" would be more accurate than "plan" Feb 27 22:16:32 I'll lose mine every 2 weeks Feb 27 22:16:32 :D Feb 27 22:17:09 * javispedro 's n900 hasn't made any high jump yet. Feb 27 22:17:27 mine flew into a girls lap once :D Feb 27 22:17:45 ah, my preciousss manually made albumart with patched meta tracker. Feb 27 22:17:47 at risk of talking myself out of buying an n900, does anyone have an idea of how soon we'll see cheaper maemo/meego phones on the market? Feb 27 22:18:17 apparently it's not a good idea having it dangle around your neck in a moving bus Feb 27 22:18:18 I have real doubts you'll see a cheaper maemo phone this year Feb 27 22:18:18 -.- Feb 27 22:18:41 Arif_: Well - if it introduces you to hot girls... Feb 27 22:18:44 Though the geek factor is nice, I don't really *need* two cameras on my phone, for example... :P Feb 27 22:18:58 colonelqubit: the front camera will cost nokia under a dollar Feb 27 22:19:14 most high end phones have two cams .. and the front cam is a 50 pence thing, that doesnt add much to the cost Feb 27 22:19:41 50 pences is a lot when it comes to mass producing electronics Feb 27 22:19:55 50 cent? Feb 27 22:20:00 I doubt it costs nokia 3 cents Feb 27 22:20:06 it's more than that Feb 27 22:20:06 I'm always suspicious of the cameras in cell phones, what with them having to squeeze into such a thin form factor Feb 27 22:20:20 and the ir emitter must be so cheap they actually pay nokia for each shipped unit with one Feb 27 22:20:22 the rear cam is of the order of $25 Feb 27 22:20:30 well most other components are more expensive .. gps, touchscreen, display, slider mechanism Feb 27 22:20:41 the GPS is probably under $5 Feb 27 22:20:55 I doubt the whole phone is above $100 Feb 27 22:20:55 maybe not sure Feb 27 22:21:00 to produce :D Feb 27 22:21:01 cehteh: two main articles are the media processor and the display Feb 27 22:21:03 a lot flash storage also adds up Feb 27 22:21:22 cehteh: yea, the RAM/ROM chip is probably the next on the BOM Feb 27 22:21:47 cehteh: yes, I was going to suspect that the flash storage and screen were $$, beyond initial development outlay Feb 27 22:21:57 and my guess will be that the n900 successor may be disappointing for geeks Feb 27 22:22:04 more WAF less features Feb 27 22:22:28 as long as it has better speakers Feb 27 22:22:31 >:) Feb 27 22:22:39 the speakers are not *that* bad Feb 27 22:22:47 I think they're great Feb 27 22:22:54 screen is only $35 to replace. Feb 27 22:22:57 well great is something else :P Feb 27 22:23:03 Flandry, no Feb 27 22:23:06 (and another $30 for the touchscreen) Feb 27 22:23:08 unless you come from the eyephone Feb 27 22:23:11 we're talking something that fits in a hand Feb 27 22:23:34 Arif_: i opt for a subwoofer you can plug into the headphone jack .. that would fix it Feb 27 22:23:39 Flandry, may I introduce you to the Nokia 5800, 6233, and N95 (8GB) Feb 27 22:23:56 they're all smaller than the N900! Feb 27 22:24:01 i mean with decent support. .. that the headphone jack then really carries only bass signal Feb 27 22:24:11 wow you should check this http://bit.ly/bFi9I4 Feb 27 22:24:14 N95 is a freaking brick Feb 27 22:24:22 i don't really know those but the comparisons suggested the N95 is similar in sound quality Feb 27 22:24:25 I hate how each device I've had basically has more background noise than the previous one. Feb 27 22:24:35 s/noise/hissss Feb 27 22:24:36 anyways .. i am mostly hearing with headphones so i dont really care Feb 27 22:24:46 javis: Hey I have got a doorbell and it has no background noise Feb 27 22:24:55 in any case it's much batter than my previous featurephone, and that one had great speakers for its time by the reviews Feb 27 22:25:00 you can't hear speech from the N900 speakers Feb 27 22:25:03 when outside xD Feb 27 22:25:19 really? Feb 27 22:25:30 well, hardly Feb 27 22:26:17 I am talking about speakerphone mode Feb 27 22:26:24 double as long battery time would be on my list, yes Feb 27 22:26:50 well it's nearly impossible to watch a movie/listen to radio on the N900 speakers Feb 27 22:26:51 ;p Feb 27 22:26:53 still haven't gotten used to holding my PDA to my face :D Feb 27 22:27:11 who uses speakers for the radio? Feb 27 22:27:36 they're Ok Feb 27 22:27:40 so you can hear your surrounding Feb 27 22:27:44 when doing something Feb 27 22:27:48 and leave the phone somewhere in the middle Feb 27 22:27:51 ah Feb 27 22:27:57 I want to walk 3 steps away from it :) Feb 27 22:28:11 does the FM transmitter work well? Feb 27 22:28:17 yes Feb 27 22:28:21 for me it does Feb 27 22:28:36 well i wouldn't expect to be able to set a phone down and hear it from somewhere elsare for Feb 27 22:28:37 I've never had a phone or mp3 player with the feature, but it sounds like a slick idea Feb 27 22:28:55 Flandry, aw Feb 27 22:29:02 I was used to it with my older phone Feb 27 22:29:07 maybe I'm just spoilt :) Feb 27 22:29:16 maybe :) Feb 27 22:29:18 colonelqubit, it hisses somewhat but that's fixed with FMBoost Feb 27 22:29:29 Arif_: ah, okay Feb 27 22:29:36 wow you should check this http://bit.ly/bFi9I4 Feb 27 22:29:37 and you even get the artist/album/title if your radio has RDS :D Feb 27 22:29:43 nice Feb 27 22:29:47 Well i came on to ask about the maintainer for poppler qt and got sucked into this blackhole of time Feb 27 22:29:54 gotta get work done, ttyl :) Feb 27 22:29:58 lol Feb 27 22:30:06 at 23:30 on a Saturday night? Feb 27 22:30:53 only 17:30 here; the night is young Feb 27 22:31:06 living in the past are you :P Feb 27 22:31:07 such is the life (sic) of a phd candidate :P Feb 27 22:31:32 wow you should check this http://bit.ly/bFi9I4 Feb 27 22:31:37 wow you should check this http://bit.ly/bFi9I4 Feb 27 22:31:55 lol Feb 27 22:32:06 I SO WANT TO CLICK THAT Feb 27 22:32:44 way ahead of you! Feb 27 22:32:54 o rly Feb 27 22:33:02 i earnt him a euro towards a bullshit probably nonexistant prize, it seems Feb 27 22:33:14 BUT BUT Feb 27 22:33:20 the nick was sarah! Feb 27 22:33:31 it must be a girl! Feb 27 22:33:34 clearly a girl then Feb 27 22:34:04 * Arif_ transmits some Turkish music to nid0's radio Feb 27 22:34:31 * nid0 turns dream theater back up Feb 27 22:34:37 xD Feb 27 22:35:25 * Arif_ hits nid0 over the head with his saz Feb 27 22:40:52 awww Feb 27 22:40:58 N900 is not getting free Ovi Feb 27 22:41:04 .....maps Feb 27 22:41:28 who needs that with osm.. Feb 27 22:41:41 dunno Feb 27 22:41:44 I don't use navigation :D Feb 27 22:42:46 I want bug 9020 fixed that's all :D Feb 27 22:42:48 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9020 Media player crashes when trying to search in ''All songs'' Feb 27 22:42:52 go away Feb 27 22:42:54 stupid bot :( Feb 27 22:43:34 i want the cam able to write to no fat filesystems Feb 27 22:44:06 hmm Feb 27 22:44:14 but non fat filesystem can't be mounted on wind00z Feb 27 22:44:25 i dont care Feb 27 22:44:53 but everyone loves windows ! ;P Feb 27 22:45:39 i dont say everyone should reformat Feb 27 22:46:03 but really that should be fixed too yes Feb 27 22:46:08 but that the cam only stores on fat is stupid Feb 27 22:46:24 sounds like a lame limitation to me =} Feb 27 22:46:43 very likely artifical Feb 27 22:47:26 hmm Feb 27 22:47:32 mp3tag has a new version apparently! Feb 27 22:47:39 may be it should be the other way around and reject ubifs Feb 27 22:48:13 OH WELL Feb 27 22:48:15 oh well* Feb 27 22:48:16 i'll look int this sometime next Feb 27 22:48:22 you never know what Nokia's upto :D Feb 27 22:50:12 i dont care Feb 27 22:57:20 Arif_: You can mount ext2/ext3 on windows Feb 27 22:57:35 not really Feb 27 22:57:41 wh ywould I want to :p Feb 27 22:57:43 it's only ext2 that you can mount Feb 27 22:57:49 I don't have any media in that format O.o Feb 27 22:57:55 Arif_: ext2fsdhttp://www.ext2fsd.com/ Feb 27 22:57:58 and there is no drivers for it bultin Feb 27 22:58:18 colonelqubit: it fucks up filesystem more often than it doesn't Feb 27 22:58:19 oh, it's not built-in, but that way you don't have to format all of your media as FAT32 Feb 27 22:58:35 I format mine as NTFS :P Feb 27 22:58:39 I've had good experiences w/it Feb 27 22:58:50 colonelqubit: try mounting unclean FS with it Feb 27 22:58:51 home users arent going to have to want to install extra shit on windows to just make their n900 plug in and show up Feb 27 22:58:52 that can work, too Feb 27 22:59:26 fair 'nuff Feb 27 22:59:30 home users don't know what a filesystem or driver is Feb 27 22:59:34 :) Feb 27 22:59:53 exactly, they want to just plug it in and have it work Feb 27 23:00:18 * Arif_ is a home user =} Feb 27 23:01:02 anyways .. anyone knows/investigates how the camera takes pictures and saves them? Feb 27 23:01:03 the 800lb Windows juggernaut wins again. So sad Feb 27 23:01:18 colonelqubit: it's about simplicity Feb 27 23:01:25 colonelqubit: and fat32 is much simpler fs btw. Feb 27 23:01:30 there is the omapcamd and the camera-ui ... Feb 27 23:01:37 colonelqubit: you can read and write it using 8bit uC Feb 27 23:01:40 if everyone was using ext2 that one'd "win" Feb 27 23:02:14 jacekowski: too bad Microsoft likes to sue people for using fat32 Feb 27 23:02:26 clearly ntfs is the way to go tbh!:( Feb 27 23:02:36 i wonder if nokia has licensed it :P Feb 27 23:03:41 I wonder what happens if I format the 27GB to NTFS Feb 27 23:04:02 cam prolly cant write to ntfs either Feb 27 23:04:38 if you format the mmc to ntfs Feb 27 23:04:44 the n900 will probably say "fuck that" Feb 27 23:05:02 the media player sesm to say that a lot :P Feb 27 23:05:10 as somebody said Feb 27 23:05:20 nokia has a list of patents they don't give a shit about Feb 27 23:05:39 apparently Apple didn't read that list ;( Feb 27 23:05:59 * cehteh needs symlinks on the filesystem .. fat doesnt support symlinks .. grr Feb 27 23:06:44 maybe i reformat the internal storage to ext3 or ext4 and use fat on the uSD Feb 27 23:07:26 you should! Feb 27 23:08:25 does anyone know why the camera app needs fat? Feb 27 23:08:44 ugh, seems like the big cultural change on the forum is the "me wants working feature x, now!" vs "hmm, could be nice if it could do x", and the willingness to report bugs in a factual, calm way... Feb 27 23:08:52 hi Feb 27 23:09:06 or lack of latter, that is... Feb 27 23:09:21 t_s_o: no wonder Feb 27 23:09:35 cehteh? Feb 27 23:09:42 with the current roller-coaster ride, nokia treats the community Feb 27 23:09:46 "The legacy that we leave on this earth comes down to the principles by which we lived. It is the ideas we hold, and the way we've pursued them that are the source of our immortality." - Lew Rockwell Feb 27 23:10:10 and a lot more end-users and not geeks buying the device now too Feb 27 23:10:19 meh Feb 27 23:10:30 everyone on the forum is saying that you should've researched before buying it Feb 27 23:10:33 which is stupid ;P Feb 27 23:10:40 heh, yep, i do wonder how many of the N900 users are teens with dads credit card... Feb 27 23:10:54 yeah .. the more people buy now, the better Feb 27 23:11:07 hey, I'm a teen with my own money Feb 27 23:11:07 ;( Feb 27 23:11:28 well .. if all developers have a n900 they prolly dont want the successor model Feb 27 23:12:02 u should v researched than :) Feb 27 23:12:04 so nokia should be forced to provide meego for the n900 too, otherwise they dry out of community developers Feb 27 23:12:26 there is an interesting point cehteh Feb 27 23:12:34 and comparing mamemo.org vs ovi store repos you clearly see where the hammer hangs Feb 27 23:12:46 ovi store? Feb 27 23:12:50 what store :P Feb 27 23:13:08 pupnik: i always saied that .. kids: code for the device you own, dont care about the rest Feb 27 23:13:55 cehteh: i guess thats why nokia was handing out free devices for devs Feb 27 23:14:16 tho that discount program got fumbled... Feb 27 23:14:26 t_s_o: well i dont know how big the return (in sense of work done) was Feb 27 23:14:40 anyone using Vagulume? Feb 27 23:14:49 to i guess the fumble came from a "missunderstanding" between "old" nokia and "new" nokia Feb 27 23:14:52 tho Feb 27 23:15:04 there where likely 1000 devices handed out .. but possibly only a few of the owners do really develop apps on it Feb 27 23:15:15 cehteh: it seemed to shift the focus away from the N8x0 at least Feb 27 23:15:17 and there are many many more devs who had already to buy a device Feb 27 23:16:15 and consider my very little contribution to xchat .. which took me about a workday to do, i i had coded on a freelance base that work would almost equal a n900 .. Feb 27 23:16:27 (ok forget about taxes) Feb 27 23:17:29 ouch... Maemo SDK virtual image comes with 512MB of ram by default :D Feb 27 23:17:38 I was wondering why it was so damn slow Feb 27 23:18:08 .. thats why i need symlinks on the device .. to install the sdk there in a chroot Feb 27 23:18:39 anyone here put a compiler on N900? Feb 27 23:19:00 I use my N900 as my main phone. I'll keep my dev stuff far away from it until it's "ready for testing". :) Feb 27 23:19:08 you cant yet .. at least not easily Feb 27 23:19:27 the devel/sdk packages are not optified Feb 27 23:19:50 but you need some decent filesystem space to put it on it Feb 27 23:19:54 create a loopback ext2 image on the fat partition, mount, install chroot Feb 27 23:19:56 cehteh: my cyborgeye app is capable of taking pictures much like camera-ui, though that's not my app's purpose, I just threw some code in for fun Feb 27 23:20:01 :( cant i trick packages into installing into mmc somehow cehteh ? Feb 27 23:20:15 and symlinks .. Feb 27 23:20:39 pupnik: my plan is to reformat some space to ext3 or ext4 and doing a chroot there Feb 27 23:20:40 ty ali1234 guess a chroot is the way Feb 27 23:20:50 completely isolating it from the rest of the device Feb 27 23:21:01 cehteh: it'd be pretty easy to use nokia's gstreamer stuff to make a camera-ui clone Feb 27 23:21:17 yeah loopback ext2 or fuseext2 may work too Feb 27 23:21:54 villager: i dont want a clone .. and who here figured out that its really hard to access some special features like whitebalance focus and stuff? Feb 27 23:22:35 cehteh: it's easy with the nokia's gstreamer stuff, hard without Feb 27 23:22:44 villager: i am thinking about figuring out how it writes stuff to the disk and hack a LD_PRELOAD in which cheats it pretending anything is a FAT Feb 27 23:23:02 cehteh: can you strace the camera app to see why it fails? Feb 27 23:23:02 cehteh: optifying a package is trivial Feb 27 23:23:14 unless it's not, of course. Feb 27 23:23:22 cehteh: I unfortunately found out that if I used the binary blob from nokia, I could no longer control exposure manually, the automatic stuff kept overriding it... oh well Feb 27 23:23:32 ali1234: sure ... but not completely trivial and i had no time/success yet Feb 27 23:23:40 the camera is a daemon and a gui ... Feb 27 23:23:59 villager: yeah you straced it already or? Feb 27 23:24:09 iirc the camera FAT problem was solved in tmo Feb 27 23:24:18 dont you think the ld_preload would be the simplest hack and valuable for anyone? Feb 27 23:24:30 javispedro: how? link? Feb 27 23:24:40 cehteh: yes... it calls private ioctls in the kernel, and the kernel relays the request to the userspace daemon Feb 27 23:25:36 does the daemon write to /tmp and then some spool copies it over or does the daemon write it to the device? Feb 27 23:25:48 the daemon isn't responsible for disk i/o Feb 27 23:25:55 i noticed that the daemon has a optarg pointing to /tmp Feb 27 23:26:23 766 root 14972 S /usr/sbin/omap3camd -d /dev/video0 -f /tmp/omap3camd0 Feb 27 23:26:29 cehteh: "This seems like the best solution to me. Perhaps now that the camera is working with non FAT partitions the loopback file is not necessary." http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=499825&postcount=72 Feb 27 23:26:37 but I didn't found the actual solution. Feb 27 23:26:50 my guess -- some case sensitiveness issue. Feb 27 23:27:01 cehteh: that's probably a unix socket or something Feb 27 23:27:32 possibly the way the daemon communicates with the kernel Feb 27 23:28:53 or a permission issue. I doubt the camera app checks the target filesystem. Feb 27 23:28:56 strangely i never see anything existing there Feb 27 23:29:14 cehteh: the file is probably unlinked as soon as the socket is connected Feb 27 23:29:23 yeah Feb 27 23:29:49 cehteh: do you really have issues with camera-ui and fat? I thought I read that it's a permission issue, not a filesystem issue? Feb 27 23:30:31 i have no issues with the camera ui .. but i need a better (unix) filesystem Feb 27 23:30:39 needing symlinks Feb 27 23:30:56 well and performance and stability .. and recoverability ... Feb 27 23:31:58 javispedro: yes all 'workarounds' i seen involve keeping a fat filesystem .. isnt that crap!? Feb 27 23:32:11 what is that thing about camera and fat anyway? Feb 27 23:32:13 is there a bug? Feb 27 23:32:15 cehteh: not IMO, but well. Feb 27 23:32:38 mgedmin: nobody knows Feb 27 23:32:59 cehteh: i'm pretty sure that if he said it's fixed, then it's fixed without a fat partition anywhere. Feb 27 23:33:03 some say its a feature preventing accidental writes to the rootfs when the mmc is unmounted Feb 27 23:33:20 javispedro: show me how/where please .. Feb 27 23:33:29 ah! Feb 27 23:33:33 makes sense Feb 27 23:33:34 that would make sense. usb mass storage mode screws us again Feb 27 23:33:55 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=479171#post479171 Feb 27 23:33:58 let me guess, the camera app is closed source? Feb 27 23:34:04 yes Feb 27 23:34:10 see above post. Feb 27 23:34:19 It's so awesome, it's gotta be closed! Feb 27 23:34:27 oh, a permissions issue Feb 27 23:34:29 * timeless_mbp chuckles Feb 27 23:34:33 as I though. Feb 27 23:34:33 malice, incompetence, etc. Feb 27 23:34:42 claiming that the camera has a bug Feb 27 23:34:42 and they spent nearly 5 pages trying to guess what was happening. Feb 27 23:34:46 everything can be reversed Feb 27 23:34:55 for a situation which it explicitly doesn't support Feb 27 23:34:56 javispedro: cool Feb 27 23:34:57 is insane Feb 27 23:35:05 would you guys please reprogram your 'bug' reporters? Feb 27 23:35:22 as fat doesn't support ownership Feb 27 23:35:35 it hardly makes sense for the camera app to try to create a folder with a specific owner... Feb 27 23:35:40 cehteh: (feature) MEH Feb 27 23:35:52 every bug is "a situation the program doesn't explicit support". now the question is "was the program expected to support it?" Feb 27 23:35:53 hehe . 'some say' .. Feb 27 23:35:54 it's Not Right Feb 27 23:36:20 javispedro: it's very clear that a non fat partition was *not* a supported configuration Feb 27 23:36:25 timeless_mbp: well that pretty well explains why it doesnt work and how it can be fixed Feb 27 23:36:37 * cehteh going to reformat Feb 27 23:37:02 * javispedro 's happy with FAT Feb 27 23:37:14 it seems odd to me that 'camera' would be able to create a folder owned by root Feb 27 23:37:19 * timeless_mbp didn't think camera ran as root Feb 27 23:37:40 camera is running as user Feb 27 23:37:42 timeless_mbp, see, this is why I want my computers to run open-source software, because a trivially-supportable combination of features gets rejected as "NOTABUG according to The Holy Spec" Feb 27 23:37:42 the camera daemon does Feb 27 23:37:43 the weird daemon thing might do it Feb 27 23:38:13 cehteh: does it have a name? Feb 27 23:38:17 766 root 14972 S /usr/sbin/omap3camd -d /dev/video0 Feb 27 23:38:21 ps doesn't find wierd-camera-daemon Feb 27 23:38:23 it'd surprise me if the daemon did it Feb 27 23:38:23 fixing the thing in an open-source project would take less energy than all this arguing about what is a bug and what isn't Feb 27 23:38:39 +1 Feb 27 23:38:42 build your own open source phone :P Feb 27 23:38:48 I doubt the daemon does the write Feb 27 23:38:53 build your own open source camera Feb 27 23:38:54 however, camera-ui is autostarted by a root process, perhaps it happens before the camera-ui drops permissions Feb 27 23:39:03 javispedro: surely strace could tell you quickly? Feb 27 23:39:15 timeless: strings told me it even faster Feb 27 23:39:23 s/it/ Feb 27 23:39:35 what did it say? Feb 27 23:39:46 no DCIM, MYDOCS, nor link to hildon-fm Feb 27 23:40:17 ~mgedmin++ Feb 27 23:40:51 ok as soon maemeo mapper finished with the map downloading i make a backup and reformat Feb 27 23:41:02 camera-ui contains both mydocs and dcim strings. Feb 27 23:41:03 lets try this extended kernel thing :) Feb 27 23:41:25 going ext4 .. Feb 27 23:41:57 timeless_mbp: camera-ui is started at boot by the dsme subsystem, which runs as root... it's possible that the camera-ui doesn't change uid to user immediately, but mkdirs a bit first, I suppose Feb 27 23:42:14 villager: i'll buy that Feb 27 23:42:25 so camera-ui goes off making directories and who knows what else before dropping privileges that sounds like a bug to me Feb 27 23:42:41 does anyone of you know whats the underlying blocksize of the emmc and uSD? Feb 27 23:42:43 but it is also possible the camera-ui just asks the daemon to make the directory Feb 27 23:43:06 cehteh: ~128K I think Feb 27 23:43:19 cehteh: based on some preliminary benchmarks Feb 27 23:43:43 eww ... to big to use as filesystem blocksize .. i hoped for 16k or 32k Feb 27 23:44:14 I haven't worked it out properly though. Feb 27 23:44:31 well such big blocks are reasonable for flash Feb 27 23:44:38 yes. Feb 27 23:45:03 4k blocks are the biggiest for ext Feb 27 23:45:41 stripe-width to the rescue I guess. Feb 27 23:46:26 yes my thinking Feb 27 23:46:36 whats the 'fragment' size for? Feb 27 23:46:41 ali1234: after having written my own app using the nokia camera framework, I highly doubt it's the daemon's responsibility to write the files, the gstreamer plugin handles everything needed to transfer the photo to the user process, and lets it deal with storing it to disk or whatever Feb 27 23:46:43 ok so dumb question, what are sane settings within maemo mapper to get it to predownload a realistic amount of map data? Feb 27 23:47:02 ali1234: so my guess is that it's a bug in camera-ui making directories before dropping privileges Feb 27 23:47:30 nid0: dont .. i am sucking and the servers are damn slow :P Feb 27 23:47:37 nid0: where you need to go, to the level you need it to. Feb 27 23:47:38 just ticked it to download me zoom levels 1-4 of google maps and it's asked me to confirm the download of (and i quote) 1041882136 maps Feb 27 23:47:40 And no more. Feb 27 23:47:46 seems a little off to me..? Feb 27 23:47:49 * DocScrutinizer points to cam frontend "sorage location" setting Feb 27 23:47:52 1-4? Feb 27 23:47:59 sTorage Feb 27 23:48:00 1-4 should be I think... Feb 27 23:48:04 well consider that every increased (lower) level quadruples the data Feb 27 23:48:18 256 tiles on the 4th level Feb 27 23:48:33 nid0: maybe it's backwards, and 1-4 is the highest zoom? Feb 27 23:48:38 it doesnt quite break down exactly how much data is involved in the download of that 1.04 billion maps though.. Feb 27 23:48:51 its 4 of the most detailed, 0 is most detailed, 20 is like the whole planet Feb 27 23:48:56 nid0: i am at 6GB downloaded now or so :) Feb 27 23:49:10 all i want is just a reasonably accurate map of the uk, basically :< Feb 27 23:49:18 binary maps use _LOTS_ of space Feb 27 23:49:23 yeah no kidding Feb 27 23:49:28 consider a bit per meter. Feb 27 23:49:32 meter square Feb 27 23:49:50 that's over 100km*100km 10^10 bits. Feb 27 23:49:54 level 6 or so should enogh .. open maep .. zoom full in .. Feb 27 23:49:55 that 0 Feb 27 23:49:56 or a gigabyte Feb 27 23:50:09 and then zoom out and count 1 2 3 ... Feb 27 23:51:00 am i right in thinking that the default lat/long in the manage maps section is the area you're currently actually looking at on the map? Feb 27 23:51:08 and that zoom level may not be enough for navigating in small streets Feb 27 23:51:17 yes (i hope so) Feb 27 23:51:35 * cehteh just does some insane downloading Feb 27 23:51:37 Just remember you can't legally cache google tiles. Feb 27 23:51:48 about 100km around where i live Feb 27 23:51:52 And also that if you're gonna hammer the OSM servers be moderate. Feb 27 23:51:53 screw legally, i just want a working nav suite Feb 27 23:52:07 Tehy are almost maxing out their 100mb upstream at times Feb 27 23:52:14 * cehteh has some squid hacks for OSM Feb 27 23:52:20 And persistant downloaders will get banned. Feb 27 23:52:38 ..yeah zoom level right down to 0 does seem a little excessive for navigation Feb 27 23:52:40 Do not use more than a couple of threads to download. Feb 27 23:52:41 who downloads non vectorial data from osm? Feb 27 23:52:51 javispedro: many apps Feb 27 23:52:52 my squid will cache anything for 5 months or more .. no matter what expire time was attached there Feb 27 23:52:58 (only for osm tiles) Feb 27 23:53:08 making osm faster than google maps at home :) Feb 27 23:53:42 SpeedEvil: so maybe the 0-length-tiles issue in tango isn't exactly packet loss of my gprs? Feb 27 23:53:59 SpeedEvil: for OSM Feb 27 23:54:11 DocScrutinizer: well - I doubt it - they aren't that flooded Feb 27 23:54:22 it's just if everyone downloads it all... Feb 27 23:55:07 SpeedEvil: yeah. Also tago map DL via USB seems to work fine Feb 27 23:55:20 SpeedEvil: (FR that is) Feb 27 23:56:57 * cehteh wonders about bitmap maps vs vector maps .. bitmap cost a shitload of space, but prolly easier to decompress and more battery friendly than rendering vectors Feb 28 00:00:30 SpeedEvil: btw the suggested workaround to delete all length-0 tiles in cache is another good example why messybox *SUCKS* and you'll eventually want to get the real thing Feb 28 00:00:58 the real find utility in this case Feb 28 00:01:38 yes Feb 28 00:06:27 SpeedEvil: alas I realized my suggestion doesn't pan out too good, as tangogps caches some info internally, so even deleting those crippled tiles takes efefct only after ro restart tango Feb 28 00:07:12 7.1G /home/user/MyDocs/.maps/OpenStreetMap I Feb 28 00:07:29 hrhrrhrr Feb 28 00:07:30 I vaguely recall some script to do that Feb 28 00:08:14 DocScrutinizer Feb 28 00:08:47 SpeedEvil: restart tango after cleaning cache? Feb 28 00:08:54 no Feb 28 00:09:04 download tiles in a tango compliant way Feb 28 00:09:10 aah Feb 28 00:09:33 well, tango has a function to do that Feb 28 00:10:52 the weird thing is those 0-length tiles never seem to happen with buld download of tango. The happen frequently though when tango dynamically pulls needed tiles Feb 28 00:11:12 bulK Feb 28 00:11:27 Ask Mr Tcpdump. Feb 28 00:11:34 heh Feb 28 00:12:52 * Arif_ is eating cookies Feb 28 00:13:45 * SpeedEvil is pondering coupling coefficients of pans. Feb 28 00:13:50 hrmmmm COOOOOKIEEEES Feb 28 00:14:15 SpeedEvil: ?? o.O Feb 28 00:14:31 * Arif_ hits SpeedEvil over the head with a pan Feb 28 00:15:38 Hi Feb 28 00:16:06 Is there a known problem for N900 that the USB stops working? Feb 28 00:16:10 mhm maemo mapper needs insane amounts of cpu load Feb 28 00:16:23 it can break yes Feb 28 00:16:31 DocScrutinizer: I've recently found how cheap inductive cookers have become. Feb 28 00:16:40 lol Feb 28 00:16:54 It won't load the battery and connect to the comp. Feb 28 00:17:05 try the wall charger Feb 28 00:17:08 SpeedEvil: aah yep. Here same Feb 28 00:17:16 Kiborg: socket come loose? Feb 28 00:17:20 ah, the second tracker bug of the day Feb 28 00:17:22 now the coupling makes sense Feb 28 00:17:29 Socket? Feb 28 00:17:41 javispedro, it exploded again? Feb 28 00:17:47 The USB port on N900? Feb 28 00:17:54 Arif_: yes, it lost all of my albumart again. Feb 28 00:18:01 yes Feb 28 00:18:07 Arif_: this time due to a missing underscore in a function call. Feb 28 00:18:15 .. Feb 28 00:18:17 what are you doing ;P Feb 28 00:18:52 hmm Feb 28 00:19:08 just trying to make cover.jpg-style albumart work without having to patch half the platform. Feb 28 00:19:12 * SpeedEvil misread that as albumenart. Feb 28 00:19:17 ah Feb 28 00:19:25 Which would be an odd medium. Feb 28 00:19:27 I have all my album art embeded Feb 28 00:19:33 yes, that works. Feb 28 00:20:16 I wonder if anyone can reproduce my search bug :P Feb 28 00:21:02 anyone willing to try ? =D Feb 28 00:22:36 I couldn't. Feb 28 00:22:40 So the USB port death is a known problem? Now the only solution is to use the warranty? Feb 28 00:23:12 if it's already broken no other solution Feb 28 00:23:33 buy a new N900! Feb 28 00:23:36 if it's already out of warranty you could use sales of goods act from 1979 Feb 28 00:23:47 and base your claim on reasonable life expectancy Feb 28 00:23:53 which would cover you up to 5 years Feb 28 00:23:58 no way it'd be out of warranty already ;) Feb 28 00:24:05 http://munin.openstreetmap.org/openstreetmap/yevaud.openstreetmap-if_eth1.html - tiles from ethernet. Feb 28 00:24:08 Nah it has a 2 year warranty. Feb 28 00:24:08 jacekowski: irrelevant Feb 28 00:24:26 or just use warranty Feb 28 00:24:30 jacekowski: it's within the 6 mo period when it's assumed to be a manufacturing defect Feb 28 00:24:45 not in europe ... Feb 28 00:24:54 2 years here .. Feb 28 00:24:55 in europe as well Feb 28 00:25:04 2 years Feb 28 00:25:37 Yes here in EU it has a 2 years warranty. So back to the shop first thing next week. Feb 28 00:26:25 It's a bit messy. Nokia has said they'll fix it, but still some repair centres don't want to :/ Feb 28 00:27:14 So it is a known problem? Feb 28 00:27:58 kynky: some people have reported it as an issue yes. Feb 28 00:28:05 If it's more of an issue than other phones... Feb 28 00:28:24 AIUI there isn't a repair centre solution other than change out the motherboard. Feb 28 00:28:32 At least not an official one Feb 28 00:28:35 When a heap of people start reporting the same thing - you kno its an issue Feb 28 00:28:43 know* Feb 28 00:28:44 that's listed in the l3/l4 manual. Feb 28 00:28:48 Termana_n810: no, you don't. Feb 28 00:29:03 Termana_n810: You know a lot of people started reporting the same thing. Feb 28 00:29:11 /dev/mmcblk0p1 27.0G 8.4G 18.6G 31% /home/user/MyDocs Feb 28 00:29:11 /dev/mmcblk1p1 14.8G 6.4G 8.5G 43% /media/mmc1 Feb 28 00:29:25 .. woho ... fits for a backup of emmc to uSD :P Feb 28 00:29:29 If it's not out of line with other phones USB ports breaking - it's not really an issue. Feb 28 00:29:48 * SpeedEvil backs up his laptop to his phone daily. Feb 28 00:29:53 rsync ++ Feb 28 00:29:59 SpeedEvil - point out another phone thats currently having this problem Feb 28 00:30:27 Termana_n810: bogus point to some degree. Feb 28 00:30:41 None? So, its an issue then isn't it Feb 28 00:30:54 As it presupposes a community exists round every phone with the same user visibility. Feb 28 00:31:08 Even if other phones were having the same problem - its still to some degree an issue Feb 28 00:31:15 Sure. Feb 28 00:31:34 dont forget the stockholm syndrome :P Feb 28 00:31:36 However - the right place to answer this question won't give out the numbers. Feb 28 00:31:50 Nokia will have numbers on repairs done. Feb 28 00:31:52 i mean others dont care if they can not replace the battery :P Feb 28 00:32:33 they would Feb 28 00:32:47 but then Apple tells them they shouldn't. And suddenly they don't. Feb 28 00:33:04 neurolinguistic programming! Feb 28 00:33:09 hehe Feb 28 00:33:28 pti is describing at least half of Apples seller base Feb 28 00:33:41 Praise the almighty Jobs Feb 28 00:33:46 :P Feb 28 00:33:51 ok .. installing 'kernel-flasher-maemo' .. wish me well Feb 28 00:34:47 mhm this will be a bit pita when the next nokia firmware replaces the kernel without ext4 support .. *thinking* Feb 28 00:35:23 http://munin.openstreetmap.org/openstreetmap/yevaud.openstreetmap-if_eth1.html Feb 28 00:35:32 openstreetmap network traffic Feb 28 00:36:00 Kick off downloads at about midnight GMT looks best Feb 28 00:36:13 SpeedEvil: hey look the release of maemo mapper today had no big impact :P Feb 28 00:36:38 Well - ... :) Feb 28 00:37:02 Hi i was just prompted to update Ovi suite for windows, does anyone know whether the new version supports N900? Feb 28 00:37:31 not really. Feb 28 00:38:27 you don't know or no support? Feb 28 00:38:49 I'd assume no support, people are still whining about it Feb 28 00:39:48 well, the update only just came out, right? Feb 28 00:40:01 or has it been awhile already? Feb 28 00:40:47 i'm trying to find Ovi suite version info, but no success yet Feb 28 00:41:28 it's a bit hard to follow anyway Feb 28 00:41:31 some people want ovi suite on linux Feb 28 00:41:36 some people seem to want ovi suite on n900 Feb 28 00:41:44 but i havent even opened the threads Feb 28 00:41:45 :P Feb 28 00:43:37 i'm actually not that crazy about ovi suite itself, what i'm waiting for is full syncing support for ovi services (calendar...) Feb 28 00:43:37 anyone good with stepper motors and gearboxes? Feb 28 00:43:49 crashanddie: ##electronics Feb 28 00:43:59 thanks bru Feb 28 00:44:03 interesting Feb 28 00:44:06 * ShadowJK joins Feb 28 00:44:21 :Cannot join channel (+j) - throttle exceeded, try again later Feb 28 00:44:25 lol, guess I wasn't the only one Feb 28 00:48:43 anyone knows when the big firmware update is due? Feb 28 00:49:07 * SpeedEvil stabs nokia uk. Feb 28 00:49:17 * SpeedEvil stabs nokia uk again. Feb 28 00:49:36 ~curse Nokia UK Feb 28 00:49:36 o.o Feb 28 00:49:37 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, Nokia UK ! Feb 28 00:49:51 :) Feb 28 00:50:01 bennypr0fane, 2010, hopefully ;) Feb 28 00:50:30 I hate the delay for new firmware that at some point I may actually invest the 60s in setting up a ssh tunnel somewhere else and updating through that. Feb 28 00:50:39 Not looking like it's gonna be today. Feb 28 00:50:51 I've still got to finish picking my right big toe. Feb 28 00:51:09 If I keep filling Tracker one-liner bugs that also happen to already be fixed on Harmattan they'll end up kicking me out of b.m.o :) Feb 28 00:51:15 SpeedEvil, how is that going to help? Feb 28 00:52:02 ShadowJK: I was assuming it was the update servers offering differing content on some sort of DNS basis Feb 28 00:52:11 Well there might be that Feb 28 00:52:11 ShadowJK: for load leveling updates Feb 28 00:52:17 But the biggest issue is the product code Feb 28 00:52:21 it knows you've got a UK variant Feb 28 00:52:28 and will only offer UK variants Feb 28 00:52:37 ah Feb 28 00:52:52 * SpeedEvil wonders what the UK variant does. Feb 28 00:53:17 replaced the default google.com bookmark to google.co.uk Feb 28 00:53:18 what else? Feb 28 00:53:27 SpeedEvil: (listed in L3/4) any page number? Feb 28 00:53:38 DocScrutinizer? Feb 28 00:53:59 [2010-02-28 01:28:43] that's listed in the l3/l4 manual Feb 28 00:54:31 (12:28:24 AM) SpeedEvil: AIUI there isn't a repair centre solution other than change out the motherboard. Feb 28 00:54:31 (12:28:32 AM) SpeedEvil: At least not an official one Feb 28 00:56:00 aah Feb 28 00:57:22 as usual today ... i'm even surprised that its not throwawas defect device and replace with a new one Feb 28 00:58:05 and it actualls has screws .. no clips and glue .. Feb 28 00:58:51 i think it might even use one single size of screw for easy disassembly Feb 28 00:59:34 nah there are phillips and torx Feb 28 00:59:55 clips and glue come in on a production of >10^6 units Feb 28 01:00:10 cehteh: oh :( Feb 28 01:00:46 there are locations torx head won't match Feb 28 01:00:59 torx is annoying, you can have a zillion of them, and then they invent a new 1.33333344455555998 size that you dont have Feb 28 01:01:15 mhm i think i hosed my device .. its still playing webradio but doesnt respond to anything else Feb 28 01:01:26 (ssh, unlock, slide open) Feb 28 01:01:29 What's the advantage of torx over other screw heads anyways Feb 28 01:01:32 not even the display turns on Feb 28 01:01:38 It's like the only common one that requires exactly the correct size Feb 28 01:01:41 I found I opend T5 with a T4 driver without even realizing it Feb 28 01:01:44 cehteh: press the power button or pull hte bat Feb 28 01:01:51 i dont want to Feb 28 01:01:53 Well, almost exactly ¬_¬ Feb 28 01:02:03 Lumpio-, precisely because it requires the exact size Feb 28 01:02:06 Lumpio-: less cam-out, better torque Feb 28 01:02:06 had a rsync from emmc to uSD running Feb 28 01:02:19 cehteh: it's rsync Feb 28 01:02:25 it can be restarted Feb 28 01:02:31 cehteh, that kind of stuff is good at causing swapstorms :-) Feb 28 01:02:56 --bwlimit next time ... Feb 28 01:03:07 torx is a machine thing Feb 28 01:03:44 pays off on MP Feb 28 01:04:37 holding the power button does .... nothing Feb 28 01:05:01 cehteh: wait for it to swap Feb 28 01:05:17 hehe .. 10 minutes? Feb 28 01:05:38 eventually all the events you triggered will kick in in fast sequence :-P Feb 28 01:05:54 cehteh: I had to wait 30min once Feb 28 01:06:00 media player plays without a glitch btw Feb 28 01:06:08 (webradio) Feb 28 01:06:10 some friggin youtube eaten up the mem Feb 28 01:06:57 no more patience .. ripping out the batt Feb 28 01:07:10 cehteh: kill the net :-D Feb 28 01:07:23 rsyncs between emmc and uSD Feb 28 01:07:42 duh, wait for another hour or two Feb 28 01:07:48 I'd set /proc/sys/swappiness to 1 before heavy filetransfers Feb 28 01:07:56 already took the bat out Feb 28 01:08:09 good luck fella Feb 28 01:08:26 Nokia pulled down the paid stuff on the ovi store - again Feb 28 01:08:28 well i made a backup before just not the 7GB osm data Feb 28 01:08:33 but these are in my squid Feb 28 01:08:37 tell us if it reboots without flaws Feb 28 01:08:51 reboooting Feb 28 01:09:14 * DocScrutinizer getting OM feelings :-P Feb 28 01:09:44 pass & pin .. correct desktop appears Feb 28 01:10:22 ok looks fine Feb 28 01:10:27 lmfao my phone has a load of 14.42 Feb 28 01:10:41 a mere nice would have done. Nah wait, that's messybox, no nice :-(( Feb 28 01:11:58 nice wont do Feb 28 01:11:58 appetnly scp over wifi takes a lot of cpu Feb 28 01:12:07 would need ionice Feb 28 01:12:35 there is nice .. Feb 28 01:12:46 that's nothing, my webserver has a load of 500! Feb 28 01:13:15 unice rsync .. on my laptop where unice is a script for 'ultra-nice' ... nice 19, ionice -c idle Feb 28 01:13:42 with dbench you can generate any load you want (and still keep the device responsive) Feb 28 01:14:14 ionice is kinda coupled to regular nice too these days Feb 28 01:14:29 good evening all Feb 28 01:15:06 anyone around? Feb 28 01:15:25 whats the best rogue like for n900? preferably not isometric-style. i like basic tiles or ascii Feb 28 01:16:10 err, what? Feb 28 01:16:40 nethack Feb 28 01:17:25 is packaged somewhere Feb 28 01:17:36 mmk Feb 28 01:18:24 DocScrutinizer, you dont know what a roguelike is? Feb 28 01:18:48 he is too young for that :P Feb 28 01:18:55 well he better learn Feb 28 01:19:44 http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=What_a_roguelike_is <-- DocScrutinizer Feb 28 01:19:51 lol Feb 28 01:20:23 since I enlarged my DTIM by five I get a lot of out of order segment tcp/ip stack warnings in kernel log Feb 28 01:21:53 the n900 needs attachable cooling fins :P Feb 28 01:21:55 but the battery life has increased a bit Feb 28 01:22:05 DTIM? Feb 28 01:22:45 in layman's terms, "time between wakeups while in wi-fi power saving mode" Feb 28 01:22:58 me? too young? hard to imagine :-S Feb 28 01:23:01 my vpn was bit unstable and drained the battery quite fast .. which i found out the keepalive/ping was to fast it tried unnnecessary reconnects Feb 28 01:23:12 ah Feb 28 01:23:46 anyway Feb 28 01:23:47 it's not really that ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTIM ) but higher interval between them means more latency + more battery life. Feb 28 01:23:49 well my ap dont work well with the n900 .. i have it setup at moderate power saving for wlan, because full losses connection sometimes Feb 28 01:23:54 cant seem to find anything but that isometric one Feb 28 01:24:00 vultures Feb 28 01:24:16 right that one Feb 28 01:24:17 there is plain nethack somewhere .. Feb 28 01:24:22 yea in trying to find Feb 28 01:24:23 maybe in devel Feb 28 01:24:25 i'm Feb 28 01:25:02 Feb 28 01:25:02 Nokia-N900-42-11:~# apt-cache search nethack Feb 28 01:25:02 nethack-console - dungeon crawl game - text-based interface Feb 28 01:25:02 nethack-common - dungeon crawl game - common files Feb 28 01:25:38 cool. Feb 28 01:26:40 are you guys running windows or linux? Feb 28 01:27:00 only linux here .. but in this channel are also windows people Feb 28 01:27:07 Windows people? Where!? Feb 28 01:27:16 (hah anyone here ever seen a mac user with a n900?) Feb 28 01:27:21 ~kick dracflamloc_ Feb 28 01:27:22 * infobot kicks dracflamloc_ Feb 28 01:27:32 IHPOENE Feb 28 01:27:42 =( Feb 28 01:27:54 cehteh: there's one on this channel Feb 28 01:27:56 yea i run all linux too Feb 28 01:28:14 :o Feb 28 01:28:15 redmond crap only when I whore for employment Feb 28 01:28:24 javispedro: we should report that to Steve Jobs .. or Ballmer .. whatever :) Feb 28 01:28:28 i made a kinda rogue-like. but atm its only compiled for windows Feb 28 01:28:30 even then... Feb 28 01:28:34 I have an old laptop with XP I thought I'd use for work (remote desktop) Feb 28 01:28:38 only linux here too Feb 28 01:28:42 Took like 7 hours to get that thing installed Feb 28 01:28:44 ._. Feb 28 01:29:01 lol Feb 28 01:29:03 And then I found out that Linux rdesktop had been updated and was at least as good, if not better. Feb 28 01:29:30 cehteh: I'm touting the fact of opping myself and kicking you for thinking there aren't any mac users in here Feb 28 01:29:35 Lumpio-: so Microsoft "fixed" that by requiring rdesktop clients to have working DirectX implementation to get full vista Feb 28 01:29:45 rsync runs fine now btw .. just wondering how long it will take :) Feb 28 01:29:52 Oh I don't want "full vista" Feb 28 01:29:56 I got all the visual stuff turned off Feb 28 01:30:14 crashanddie: so sorry :P Feb 28 01:30:19 cehteh: GeneralAntilles, timsamoff, timeless, me... Feb 28 01:30:53 * DocScrutinizer points to *_mbp Feb 28 01:32:20 uname -a Feb 28 01:32:20 Linux Nokia-N900-42-11 2.6.28maemo-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Wed Feb 17 16:13:31 CET 2010 armv7l unknow Feb 28 01:32:28 .. is that now the new kernel? .. Feb 28 01:32:55 Wed Feb 17 Feb 28 01:33:07 * cehteh is a bit scared installing a kernel from a package Feb 28 01:33:45 yes looks new .. or? i didnt checked it before .. whats the stock kernel? Feb 28 01:33:48 mine is from dec 17 Feb 28 01:33:53 ok Feb 28 01:34:04 how did you get this one? Feb 28 01:34:25 there is a package 'linux-kernel-flasher' which pretends to be an enhanced kernel Feb 28 01:34:46 installing it worked all too well .. so i am bit curious if it really installed a new kernel :P Feb 28 01:35:27 apt-cache search didn't find it, so I guess it's not on the repositories Feb 28 01:35:34 how 'enhanced' it is? Feb 28 01:35:35 it is .. but maybe devel Feb 28 01:36:00 I have maemo-devel and maemo-testing Feb 28 01:36:02 encryption, ext3, ipv6 and tons of goodies Feb 28 01:36:08 version junkies Feb 28 01:36:11 couldn't find it... Feb 28 01:37:00 kernel-flasher-maemo - Linux kernel updater for an enhanced Maemo 5 kernel Feb 28 01:37:04 is the package Feb 28 01:37:29 found it Feb 28 01:37:30 do you recommend it? Feb 28 01:37:33 DocScrutinizer: feature, not version Feb 28 01:37:44 ptl: haha, dont ask me .. i just trying Feb 28 01:38:01 i once ask here and someone else used it without bricking his device Feb 28 01:38:09 ok... well... it's still 2.6.28, just compiled with a later date, maybe with some additional drivers and patches Feb 28 01:38:12 took me a week to consider if i want to try it now :) Feb 28 01:38:31 prolly its the stock n900 kernel just reconfigured Feb 28 01:38:32 yeah, I think I won't, unless I badly needed a feature enabled by it Feb 28 01:38:54 i want ext4, and possibly encryption Feb 28 01:39:08 what for? Feb 28 01:39:27 I mean, ext4 Feb 28 01:39:50 encryption I can understand - even though there is truecrypt on the repositories and that should worm Feb 28 01:39:53 *work Feb 28 01:39:57 ext4 because it gave a solid performance boost on my laptop and it works generally better on flash drives Feb 28 01:40:18 worm - *smile* Feb 28 01:40:32 i need a unix fs .. and if there is a choice from ext3 to ext4 then ext4 wins by a big margin Feb 28 01:41:47 encryption, and some random printfs in various code I want to understand. Feb 28 01:42:06 I want to try breaking out the flashlight LED from the camera Feb 28 01:42:22 That is - have it also exposed as an LED Feb 28 01:42:38 huh? Feb 28 01:42:39 SpeedEvil: sounds like a plan Feb 28 01:42:44 is there any port for 7zip on Maemo? Feb 28 01:43:02 cehteh: the flashlight program currently has to open the camera to be able to control the flashlight. Feb 28 01:43:09 ah yes Feb 28 01:43:10 cehteh: this breaks stuff. Feb 28 01:43:22 cehteh: but there isn't a good reason for this to be so. Feb 28 01:43:36 open camera device? Feb 28 01:43:52 cehteh: ofcourse ext4 have had, and probably still does, various severe issues Feb 28 01:44:12 the leds can also be lighted on a 'indicator' level which is more dim than the torch Feb 28 01:44:19 i'd like to see how that uis Feb 28 01:44:26 redeeman: such as? Feb 28 01:44:48 i am using ext4 since quite some time and never had any issues Feb 28 01:44:49 cehteh: there have been data corruption issues every release since ext4 was marked stable Feb 28 01:44:59 cehteh: yeah - open the camera device Feb 28 01:45:02 well just because you didn't doesn't mean others didn't Feb 28 01:45:06 well .. it cant be worse than FAT :P Feb 28 01:45:14 in some ways it is Feb 28 01:45:24 vfat has been pretty damn stable MANY years back Feb 28 01:45:33 ext4 cannot even begin to aproach that Feb 28 01:45:33 cehteh: that is - not the physical shutter - the light is implemented as a control of the video4linux driver Feb 28 01:45:42 and some (most) issues i seen where rather a result from bad userspace programming Feb 28 01:45:56 indicator might be the redish one Feb 28 01:45:58 SpeedEvil: ok Feb 28 01:46:01 got that Feb 28 01:46:19 DocScrutinizer: nope the flash leds have 3 levels indicator, torch and flash Feb 28 01:46:29 yeah. Feb 28 01:46:35 the red led is implemented elsewhere Feb 28 01:46:47 flashlight is a bit brighter than required much of the time. Feb 28 01:46:59 yes Feb 28 01:47:17 and flashlight is killer Feb 28 01:47:35 ? Feb 28 01:47:40 they drive the leds quite conservative so far i seen Feb 28 01:47:49 SpeedEvil: <0.5s Feb 28 01:47:51 redeeman: vfat && stable? what shit you've been smoking? Feb 28 01:47:52 nokia choosen less power than they are rates Feb 28 01:47:55 err - no Feb 28 01:48:04 DocScrutinizer: thats flash .. not torch Feb 28 01:48:08 flashlight is a misleading american term meaning a continuous light Feb 28 01:48:12 arachnist: so what exactly have you experienced of vfat instabilities? Feb 28 01:48:24 torch is used in the UK. Feb 28 01:48:31 redeeman: data loss, data corruption Feb 28 01:48:38 Sandman: that seems easy to do Feb 28 01:48:54 i hardly think so, ofcourse you can lose data if you hard reset without syncing, which is true of any fs Feb 28 01:49:00 well 'indicator' 'torch' and 'flash' are the terms in the datasheet of the driver chip and in the kernel driver Feb 28 01:49:01 as for data corruption, that's probably your disk or ram Feb 28 01:49:02 so s/flashlight/flash/ Feb 28 01:49:24 Sandman: well, in fact, I just found it on the repositories. apt-get install p7zip Feb 28 01:49:26 yeah .. rsync finished Feb 28 01:49:38 .. a 2nd run just to be sure Feb 28 01:49:40 Sandman: or apt-get install p7zip-full Feb 28 01:49:47 i don't recall seeing a dataloss/corroption fix going into the vfat driver since forever Feb 28 01:49:49 lol! Feb 28 01:49:53 that thing is pretty much as stable as can be Feb 28 01:50:07 or unfixable :P Feb 28 01:50:13 redeeman: ever tried writing to a vfat device at really fast rates? Feb 28 01:50:14 fubar Feb 28 01:50:19 redeeman: like 300MB/s? Feb 28 01:50:29 arachnist: as a matter of fact, i have Feb 28 01:50:38 on loopback on a ramdisk Feb 28 01:50:43 (tmpfs) Feb 28 01:51:29 loopbacks generally behave differently than real devices Feb 28 01:51:32 redeeman: well, i did it with zfs + zvol + iscsi + 10GbE network at work Feb 28 01:51:41 cehteh: in that case, its not a filesystem issue Feb 28 01:51:43 there are a lot barrier (or the lack of) Feb 28 01:51:58 well i don't care about zfs, we're talking vfat Feb 28 01:52:03 well filesystems make some assumptions about the underlying device Feb 28 01:52:03 redeeman: hello Feb 28 01:52:04 and the vfat driver is pretty damn stable Feb 28 01:52:16 redeeman: i exported zfs zvol over iscsi to a linux machine Feb 28 01:52:30 redeeman: over a 10GbE network Feb 28 01:52:41 so? we're talking about vfat here Feb 28 01:53:02 redeeman: you know what zvols and iscsi are? Feb 28 01:53:07 yes Feb 28 01:53:30 well then, every other filesystem hasn't shown any issues with that setup Feb 28 01:53:40 except for ufs and vfat Feb 28 01:54:10 that's with a very high degree of certainty not a problem in vfat Feb 28 01:54:36 ofcourse. otherwise 100% reliable zfs and 100% reliable network is at fault here Feb 28 01:54:41 not some shitty filesystem Feb 28 01:54:49 or the iscsi subsystem ofcourse Feb 28 01:55:13 the vfat driver is being used in literally countless devices Feb 28 01:55:22 its far more likely that another thing is at fault Feb 28 01:55:45 it is used in countless devices Feb 28 01:55:55 but most of them don't exceed 0.5MB/s Feb 28 01:56:09 are you implying some race condition exists? Feb 28 01:57:19 i'm not trying to guess what the cause is. i'm just saying what the result was Feb 28 01:57:41 its extremely unlikely the problem is in vfat itself Feb 28 01:58:10 too bad only vfat on linux and ufs on freebsd encountered problems Feb 28 01:58:23 that still does not prove anything Feb 28 01:59:21 mke2fs -t ext4 -b 4096 -m 0 -E stride=32512 /dev/mmcblk0p1 ... ok? guess yes Feb 28 01:59:38 the fact that you're seeing the same issue on two entirely different OSs and filesystems, ought to tell you something Feb 28 01:59:54 err wrong Feb 28 02:00:19 stride=32 Feb 28 02:00:23 redeeman: the fact that i'm only seeing issues with filesystems that aren't considered reliable nowadays, should tell you something Feb 28 02:00:36 vfat IS considered reliable Feb 28 02:00:51 ofcourse without a journal etc, its not considered reliable in the event of EXTERNAL failures Feb 28 02:01:39 so reliable within its limits :) Feb 28 02:01:48 its reliable in itself Feb 28 02:01:52 well the problem is still lack of feature and performance Feb 28 02:02:03 certain failure in other parts of the system won't be protected against Feb 28 02:02:10 besides, vfat has other issues, like lack of unix permisions, not to mention xattr, or the filesystem size or file size limits Feb 28 02:02:17 yes but a filesystem is rarely used just to show itself :P Feb 28 02:02:30 cehteh: yes, but that wasnt what we are talking about Feb 28 02:03:13 redeeman: how worthy is a filesystem driver, that doesn't check anything it has written in a reliable way? Feb 28 02:03:41 that is still not what we are talking about Feb 28 02:03:54 most filesystems don't check what they write Feb 28 02:04:05 redeeman: well i am interesting in using the filesystem, nothing less Feb 28 02:04:14 nearly all I suspect, not most. Feb 28 02:04:30 SpeedEvil: some filesystems write checksums along the actual data, so that it can be verified when the file is read Feb 28 02:04:36 Sure. Feb 28 02:04:39 and if your block device is working, vfat shall be properly stable Feb 28 02:05:06 arachnist: and out of those commonly used general purpose filesystems, none do that. Feb 28 02:05:36 At least at the filesystem level for block devices assumed to be reliable. Feb 28 02:05:53 SpeedEvil: depends on what environment we're talking about. zfs can (and, by default, does) write checksums Feb 28 02:06:17 SpeedEvil: murderfs4 also did, afair Feb 28 02:06:31 nope Feb 28 02:06:36 but btrfs does Feb 28 02:06:56 murderfs has had modules for checksumming Feb 28 02:07:02 murderfs4 Feb 28 02:07:09 yeah no one used it :P Feb 28 02:07:24 whenever i tried to stresstest it, it murdered my test data Feb 28 02:07:41 yeah, that's a sad thing about it Feb 28 02:08:02 back when people were interested in it, it was still very unstable Feb 28 02:08:16 sometimes it had no chance for that because it deadlocked the kernel before it was able to destroy data Feb 28 02:08:19 arachnist: nearly all installed filesystems do not checksum the data. Feb 28 02:08:56 * cehteh currently watches nilfs2 and btrfs Feb 28 02:09:00 well, i learned the hard way that no block devices by themselves are reliable Feb 28 02:09:22 nilfs is ultra reliable and has a nice design for some purposes (lots writes, backups) Feb 28 02:09:30 but lacks features and performance yet Feb 28 02:10:12 zfs has nice features, is very reliable, efficent and fast. and has a freebsd prot Feb 28 02:10:15 port* Feb 28 02:10:26 [ 3354.593872] EXT4-fs: mmcblk1p1: Filesystem with huge files cannot be mounted read-write without CONFIG_LSF. Feb 28 02:10:39 waah .. damn .. that kernel isnt enough Feb 28 02:10:45 and i can boot directly from a 6 disk raidz2 (think: raid6) array Feb 28 02:11:35 well turning off huge-file support should fix it Feb 28 02:15:47 anyone noticed how much the emmc (and prolly uSD too) preformance degrades after some use .. Feb 28 02:16:13 mmc/sd controllers are really not up to date with the block management techniques Feb 28 02:45:13 uhm .. great the fdisk binary from http://sumoudou.org doesnt work with the current libblkid :P Feb 28 02:45:46 sfdisk seems to be very pita to change the fs-type Feb 28 02:46:09 yep Feb 28 02:46:32 cfdisk is in some repo Feb 28 02:46:35 try cfdisk maybe Feb 28 02:46:41 :-D Feb 28 02:46:57 uhm .. what repo chinook? Feb 28 02:47:03 cant find it Feb 28 02:47:07 dunno, sorry Feb 28 02:48:34 http://www.mauve.plus.com/ham.list Feb 28 02:48:36 night all Feb 28 02:49:08 thanks Feb 28 02:49:31 deb http://193.93.133.106/deb fremantle stable .... looks trustworthy :) Feb 28 02:50:49 umm, apt-get install cfdisk? Feb 28 02:51:38 yeah i just need to figure out where that is .. actually i can dpkg -i then **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Feb 28 02:59:57 2010