**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Sep 03 02:59:57 2010 Sep 03 03:16:05 hwo big is the easydeb image file again? Sep 03 03:26:53 hi Sep 03 03:41:27 aha Sep 03 03:41:33 this kernel-maemo thing works Sep 03 03:41:35 but wtf is it Sep 03 03:41:39 and why doesn't fremantle? Sep 03 03:41:59 yes where id the directory Sep 03 03:52:30 hey guys Sep 03 03:52:46 what is the command to look into a directory Sep 03 03:52:49 please Sep 03 03:53:44 ls? Sep 03 03:53:48 er, just ls Sep 03 03:56:23 242 files left, yay! Sep 03 03:58:54 241 flies left! Sep 03 03:59:02 hello Sep 03 03:59:16 how can i check whats inside a directory Sep 03 03:59:19 please Sep 03 03:59:26 ls Sep 03 03:59:29 mmm Sep 03 03:59:41 use the ls command to 'list' the contents Sep 03 03:59:42 thxx Sep 03 04:01:34 how can i get multiboot-kernel-power into .nitdroid directory? Sep 03 04:01:41 its not there Sep 03 04:01:51 how can i put it there? Sep 03 04:04:01 colorrscolorrs!! Sep 03 04:04:42 how please? Sep 03 04:06:08 erm, seems my provider might have decided to fuck up automated log ins again Dx Sep 03 04:06:53 oh, crap,t hey want us to hire a content provider, i thought we already had one...... Sep 03 04:07:59 interesting, it seems IRC connections can slip by Sep 03 04:09:30 how can i install multiboot-kernel-power_0.3_armel.deb Sep 03 04:10:33 oh, it seems it was jsut a hicup Sep 03 04:17:15 * Dhraakellian installs claws Sep 03 04:34:03 oh oh 0.0 Sep 03 04:34:36 seems it didn't count all the files in the beggining, it jumped from 169 files left to 915 files left :( Sep 03 04:47:32 so anyhow… where's the source for kernel-maemo? -.- Sep 03 04:48:08 or I suppose it'd be better to try mainline first Sep 03 04:48:59 hey guys... I'd like to dual boot my OQO micro computer with Windows 7 and possible Maemo, I'd use Maemo specifically for playing Music and surfing the internet, nothing else. Can Maemo be installed as a small OS for a pc/ Sep 03 04:49:00 ? Sep 03 04:49:10 No. Sep 03 04:49:30 Maemo has closed source componenets, and cannot be booted on x86 Sep 03 04:49:41 the opensoruce components of course can - see meego Sep 03 04:49:56 that's unfortunate. thank you, speedevil.. and thanks again for the recommendation! Sep 03 04:51:52 is UMA likely to be added to the n900? Sep 03 04:53:12 No. Sep 03 04:53:28 The modem bit is basically not being developed much further. Sep 03 04:53:35 Apps like that need to reach deep into the modem. Sep 03 04:54:26 talking about Maemo on the PC, do you know where i can get a Windows port of microB? Sep 03 04:54:35 so the gsm stack is all closed source? Sep 03 04:54:44 UMA? Sep 03 04:54:53 unlicensed mobile access Sep 03 04:54:56 zr0: yes Sep 03 04:55:05 luke-jr: Think GSM-over-wifi tunneling Sep 03 04:55:09 wow.. that's fucking lame Sep 03 04:55:30 zr0: Opening the source of the modem would actually be illegal in some countries. Sep 03 04:55:42 mmm, more voip via tunneling to tmobile with gsm handover Sep 03 04:55:55 yesterday i saw this page about homemade cell phones, i didn't read much 'cause i had to leave, and then i forgot about it, perhaps they know the secrets Sep 03 04:56:06 security by obscurity by law :P Sep 03 04:56:10 SpeedEvil: that doesn't make any sense.. Sep 03 04:56:11 For example in the UK, once someone does something bad with it - and you don't fix it - you're liable for selling hacking tools. Sep 03 04:56:18 zr0: no - nothing like that. Sep 03 04:56:26 SpeedEvil: actually, I think the law requires it to be unmodifiable, not closed Sep 03 04:56:29 zr0: It is specifically tunneling the GSM protocol over wifi. Sep 03 04:56:35 luke-jr: Fair point. Sep 03 04:56:48 which is accomplished via DRM on N900 Sep 03 04:57:07 zr0: The wifi point (or whatever other non-GSM network) acts like a tunnel to a virtual GSM base-station. Sep 03 04:57:30 zr0: The GSM handover happens between this basestation, and the normal ones seamlessly. Sep 03 04:57:50 seems like it would be pretty easy to implement then Sep 03 04:57:57 IT's not. Sep 03 04:58:26 It requires the software stack to be able to hand off calls to the modem, and the reverse. Sep 03 04:58:36 This requires deep hooks into the modem. Sep 03 04:58:50 SpeedEvil: the N900 software stack can't control calls? Sep 03 04:59:12 It's at a lower level than that. Sep 03 04:59:39 luke-jr: a UMA connection is basically another GSM tower. But one that comes through the wifi interface. Sep 03 04:59:46 basically, you need to modify the gsm modem's driver Sep 03 05:00:00 zr0: the driver is 100% open Sep 03 05:00:07 zr0: just not the modem firmware Sep 03 05:00:07 You need to modify the GSM modem too. Sep 03 05:00:23 ... Sep 03 05:00:36 This functionality has to be written into the modem - most don't support it. Sep 03 05:00:36 are you guys sure about that? Sep 03 05:00:38 yes. Sep 03 05:01:21 There is no way to query the SIM in a platform independant way to auth the wifi connection, for one thing. Sep 03 05:01:22 but during the handovers aren't you essentially resetting the modem? Sep 03 05:01:27 no. Sep 03 05:01:41 so the modem still thinks it's connected? Sep 03 05:02:28 A) you detect a wifi suitable for UMA Sep 03 05:02:41 it's like it's swtiching from one tower to the next, but the next tower isn't realy a tower, like that? Sep 03 05:02:46 B) You bring up this connection, check it's stable - over wifi Sep 03 05:02:52 TiagoTiago: yep Sep 03 05:03:09 C) you tell the modem to disconnect from the current tower, and tell it it's a handover Sep 03 05:03:12 zr0: I don't think the CPU side even knows when a handover happens Sep 03 05:03:29 D) you talk to the fake GSM tower over wifi Sep 03 05:03:29 luke-jr: then that's a retarded implementation Sep 03 05:03:45 That's how UMA works. Sep 03 05:03:49 How else could it work? Sep 03 05:03:50 zr0: N900's impl is basically a USB modem plugged into a laptop Sep 03 05:04:07 The alternatives are basically worse. Sep 03 05:04:17 I think Nokia guy here the other day said the modem int he N900 is capable of checking signals of many antennas at the same time, but that isn't avaiable thru the open API Sep 03 05:04:29 gsm modem is a completely seperate device from a wifi interface Sep 03 05:04:34 a Nokia guy* Sep 03 05:04:40 For example - if it's all done in the modem, the modem needs to host the wifi interface Sep 03 05:04:51 And all of the wifi stack Sep 03 05:05:00 Which brings a whole new level of pain Sep 03 05:05:18 couldn't the modem spill both the input and the output back into the higher levels to be redirected? Sep 03 05:05:23 It could. Sep 03 05:05:26 right Sep 03 05:05:28 It doesn't. Sep 03 05:05:29 exaclty Sep 03 05:05:39 they probably do it that way to save power Sep 03 05:05:53 But the point is that fromthe point of view of the network - this is the only sane way to do this. Sep 03 05:06:06 It's the implementation on the mobile-side that's a bit messy. Sep 03 05:06:16 from the networks point of view it makes sense Sep 03 05:06:28 right Sep 03 05:06:29 it's liuke a gemtocell without the cell? Sep 03 05:06:34 femtocell* Sep 03 05:06:37 yes. Sep 03 05:06:37 like* Sep 03 05:06:40 exactly Sep 03 05:07:52 TiagoTiago: so basically the modem can do it, it's just that the interface is documented and open? Sep 03 05:08:06 s/is/is not Sep 03 05:08:15 On the mobile side it's icky - as you have to break the layering - as the modem can't be a black box - it needs hooks. And the whole stack needs reengineering Sep 03 05:08:28 my understanding is the hardware is capable, but the open software has no way to tell the hardware to do it Sep 03 05:08:31 the modem in principle could be reprogrammed to do it by nokia. Sep 03 05:08:50 The modem as currently programmed - either can't do it - or there are no docs. Sep 03 05:09:07 most likely no docs Sep 03 05:09:15 well, who knows Sep 03 05:09:31 is it not permanently programmed, like a true read only memory (not the type that can be reflashed) ? Sep 03 05:09:45 might have an eeprom Sep 03 05:09:48 TiagoTiago: no - it's got - IIRC - 16M of flash Sep 03 05:09:56 there you go Sep 03 05:10:04 what's the chip? Sep 03 05:10:08 Or it may be 2M - I forget - I diddn't read that closely. Sep 03 05:10:15 so it might be possible to reverse engineer the stuff and install an open source modem firmware? Sep 03 05:10:23 sure Sep 03 05:10:27 http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic Sep 03 05:10:38 In principle yes - in practice it's signed. Sep 03 05:10:53 someone would have to also crack the signature system Sep 03 05:10:58 LOL Sep 03 05:11:05 public key encryption is uncrackable Sep 03 05:11:18 Uncrackable is probably strong. Sep 03 05:11:23 not if you have enough time Sep 03 05:11:29 TiagoTiago: even if u crack it.. u'd need the open modem impl that can drive the modem hw they have Sep 03 05:11:36 even if they put a bunch of PS3 running custom firmware and a bunch of people running crack@home? Sep 03 05:11:38 the modem is another cpu - another soc with another set of hw on it Sep 03 05:11:42 For example - social engineering may get you the key. Sep 03 05:12:00 And a full 3G stack is horribly complex. Sep 03 05:12:11 meh, who needs 3G Sep 03 05:12:13 just run OpenBTS Sep 03 05:12:15 :p Sep 03 05:12:15 lol Sep 03 05:12:22 u're effectively "porting" an os with all dirvers, etc. to it THEN implwmenting a gsm etc. stack and an ipc layer that lets u talk to the modem os from the ap side Sep 03 05:12:25 not a trivial task Sep 03 05:12:51 considering that fiurst - such stacks and os's on the mdoem side .. as open soruce.. basically dont exist Sep 03 05:12:53 i don't understand why you wouldn't implement your stack with uma in mind.. i mean wouldn't tmobile rather you use a wifi hotspot than one of their cell towers? Sep 03 05:12:54 haven't people already achieved similar feats with running Linux on all sorts of things? Sep 03 05:13:05 and no specs ont he hw on the modem "computer" are open :) Sep 03 05:13:07 zr0: Because it's complex. Sep 03 05:13:10 so u'd reverse engineer it :) Sep 03 05:13:28 zr0: and complexity adds cost and delay. Sep 03 05:13:51 zr0: T-Mobile didn't make it Sep 03 05:14:09 they do this two chip design to save power right? Sep 03 05:14:13 no Sep 03 05:14:22 to obey the "don't let anyone change it" laws Sep 03 05:14:33 two chips will always use more power than 1 Sep 03 05:14:40 not necessarily Sep 03 05:14:50 zr0: they do it so u CAN have a "full os" run separately from a blackboxed modem that handles dealing with vioice, gsm data, blah blah blah Sep 03 05:14:57 its how pretty much most hw works these days Sep 03 05:15:06 if each can be optmized to do somthing differently, both will be optmized Sep 03 05:15:07 your scsi raid controller has a cpu on it Sep 03 05:15:09 (most likely) Sep 03 05:15:11 wiht its own os Sep 03 05:15:14 its on a card Sep 03 05:15:22 and u talk to it via a memory mapped interface over pci Sep 03 05:15:26 same with wifi Sep 03 05:15:32 * Stskeeps plays with his meego/n900 able to make calls Sep 03 05:15:33 same with gpu's Sep 03 05:15:40 same with just about everything these days Sep 03 05:16:06 its only a question of how high-level and complex that set of software is that runs on the device's "cpu" Sep 03 05:16:12 those types of devices don't run a full-blown os though, right? Sep 03 05:16:19 it varies Sep 03 05:16:36 anything from hyper-simple blobs of firmware u could sanelyu re-verse-engineer withotu trouble Sep 03 05:16:39 to actual rtos's Sep 03 05:16:44 and processes Sep 03 05:16:45 hmmm Sep 03 05:16:48 and ipc layers and more Sep 03 05:17:00 and that's what you're saying runs on these gsm modem chips Sep 03 05:17:00 modems (gsm etc.) tend to be on the higher end of the complexity level Sep 03 05:17:11 In the lower end phones, it's 'all' on one chip. Sep 03 05:17:18 yup Sep 03 05:17:22 SpeedEvil: sure Sep 03 05:17:22 Which can make UMA a bit less of a pain Sep 03 05:17:28 the "modem os" has the ability to slide in other processes Sep 03 05:17:32 If it has wifi even Sep 03 05:17:37 and code Sep 03 05:17:45 the modem os is just a tiny rtos Sep 03 05:17:49 i'm guessing Sep 03 05:17:53 but nbow u pay a price Sep 03 05:17:58 1. the modem os and infr ais not open Sep 03 05:18:15 just so you can have a "thread" concept.. vxworks, etc Sep 03 05:18:16 2. its almost always locked down behind a lot of layers of nda , secrecy and proprietariness Sep 03 05:18:19 zr0: even the 100% open software Freerunner had a closed modem Sep 03 05:18:24 3. u have to share your cpu with a greeedy modem os Sep 03 05:18:29 if it wants the pcu - it'll steel it Sep 03 05:18:29 Ironically. Sep 03 05:18:32 your ui be damned Sep 03 05:18:38 The freerunner probably could do UMA Sep 03 05:18:51 In that you've probably got the best chance of implementing it there. Sep 03 05:19:01 the modem was a ti modem Sep 03 05:19:01 without replacing closed firmwares, does the N900 allows for any type of arbitrary radio protocol to be implemented in any of the frequencies of it's transceivers/trasmitter-receiver pairs? Sep 03 05:19:06 its an arm core on therer Sep 03 05:19:06 The chipset is the reference platform for the open-source GSM erfforts. Sep 03 05:19:12 The datasheets leaked. Sep 03 05:19:14 with a proprietary os u have to license from ti Sep 03 05:19:16 TiagoTiago: no Sep 03 05:19:30 TiagoTiago: Essentially all radios in stuff today is special purpose. Sep 03 05:19:43 TiagoTiago: A large fraction of the processing is done by hardware. Sep 03 05:19:44 the main cpu (samsung 2442) was a separate chip/soc Sep 03 05:19:51 thats what drove the linxu os, ui, etc. etc. Sep 03 05:19:52 so none of the radios allow more raw access? Sep 03 05:20:09 no Sep 03 05:20:14 they all hide behind some itnerface Sep 03 05:20:16 TiagoTiago: For example - a crystal - cut right - can do a billion floating point operations a second on a billionth of a watt. Sep 03 05:20:17 anyone remember the yopy? I really wanted one of those things ... Sep 03 05:20:21 that's disapointing :( Sep 03 05:20:22 be it at commandset over serial, usb Sep 03 05:20:31 or maybe some shared memory window stuff with binary protocols Sep 03 05:20:32 etc. Sep 03 05:20:34 its still all isolaed Sep 03 05:20:40 unless its a "dumbphone" Sep 03 05:20:47 TiagoTiago: Doing that in a 'SDR' digitally would take perhaps 5-10W Sep 03 05:20:54 and then it runs all on hte modem (single chip solkn) and is closed up Sep 03 05:21:00 Optimistically. Sep 03 05:21:38 i wonder if this ti modem has a jtag interface Sep 03 05:21:51 The modem in the n900 is not TI Sep 03 05:22:07 Well - irt is , but it's a nokia/TI codesign. The TI modem referred to above was the Calypso. Sep 03 05:22:17 This has no leaked docs. Sep 03 05:22:28 So is about 8 orders of magnitude harder to crack. Sep 03 05:22:29 SpeedEvil: calypso was a POS Sep 03 05:22:33 Sure. Sep 03 05:22:38 buggy as all crap Sep 03 05:22:38 But POS + docs Sep 03 05:22:45 open crap is still crap Sep 03 05:22:46 :) Sep 03 05:22:51 how buggy? Sep 03 05:23:03 You mean the hw bugs? Sep 03 05:23:05 Those plugs under the battery, has anyone figured out somthing fun that can be done with them? Sep 03 05:23:05 its a featurephone modem Sep 03 05:23:08 it does at commands Sep 03 05:23:10 Or the firmware ones. Sep 03 05:23:18 but it was only exposes in a very basic way Sep 03 05:23:20 TiagoTiago: somewhat - yes - but not really Sep 03 05:23:24 just enough to use it in limited cases from a pc Sep 03 05:23:34 eg as a "gsm dialup modem" Sep 03 05:23:43 how so? Sep 03 05:23:47 if u wanted to handle async notifications of things like incoming sms while u were doing other things Sep 03 05:24:00 i guess this gsm firmware/hardware design is nokia's secret sauce Sep 03 05:24:01 it'd nicely just break messages in the middle Sep 03 05:24:07 forget it was still sending it to you Sep 03 05:24:14 and send the "u have sms" message in thge middle Sep 03 05:24:22 other nasties Sep 03 05:24:32 like it'd just lose messages while waking up ro sleeping Sep 03 05:24:37 (being sent to the states) Sep 03 05:24:43 and no way to ever know they were lost Sep 03 05:24:45 or get them back Sep 03 05:24:47 wow Sep 03 05:24:55 it was all really the modem os bugs Sep 03 05:25:01 Nasty. Sep 03 05:25:09 it wasnt intended to be a "modem for another smartphone os to use" Sep 03 05:25:13 which phone was this? Sep 03 05:25:19 it was designed as a dumb featurephone chip+os Sep 03 05:25:30 and so these thnigs didnt work right as they wree not tested Sep 03 05:25:39 sure Sep 03 05:25:42 as it was not considered a real life use of the chip Sep 03 05:25:44 Perhaps Nokia could release an somewhat open version of the firmwares, kinda generic, without their secrets, with a license that would allow them to use changes the community makes in their closed firmwares, and also a condition that the open firmware couldn't ship nor be offered by any competitor, wouldn't it be beneficial for Nokia and the community? Sep 03 05:25:53 it was intended to function only so far as u may use your featurephone as a dialup modem Sep 03 05:25:59 and similar simple things Sep 03 05:26:02 why would you want to modify the ISI modem again? it's quite versatile Sep 03 05:26:02 :P Sep 03 05:26:06 TiagoTiago: No, they can't. Sep 03 05:26:06 TiagoTiago, what is in it for them? Sep 03 05:26:12 zr0: freerunner Sep 03 05:26:12 TiagoTiago: i believe xilinx usually takes this kind of approach Sep 03 05:26:21 as such om finally got a license for the modem os Sep 03 05:26:27 and spent a while trying to fix a lot of the issues Sep 03 05:26:33 but not all were Sep 03 05:26:34 me moos Sep 03 05:26:36 TiagoTiago: They do this - the first person that misuses it then makes them unable to sell the n900 int he UK. Sep 03 05:26:36 * RST38h moos Sep 03 05:26:42 it still was a shitting grps modem anyway Sep 03 05:26:46 shitty Sep 03 05:26:56 so nice and schloooooooooooow Sep 03 05:26:56 freerunner = pandora-1 Sep 03 05:27:01 It would be beneficial for them 'cause they would be able to use the good stuff the community comes up with in their own devices while preventing the competitors from doing so Sep 03 05:27:08 ah, yeah, i forgot about the damn law Sep 03 05:27:11 :( Sep 03 05:27:19 change the law Sep 03 05:27:21 And I suspect the UK is not alone. Sep 03 05:27:26 =D Sep 03 05:27:27 i don't live there Sep 03 05:27:27 zr0: It's there for a reason. Sep 03 05:27:36 i dunno what the laws are over here though Sep 03 05:27:39 what is the reason? Sep 03 05:27:51 not just the law Sep 03 05:27:54 pissed off telcos Sep 03 05:28:00 zr0: If you for example have two N900s - you can transfer data between them - 'free' at a range of a couple of kilometers. Sep 03 05:28:02 To prevent people abusing the system? Sep 03 05:28:03 TiagoTiago, yeah, even I don't see the cost/benefit coming out in their favor, and I'm a lot more optimistic than them Sep 03 05:28:16 if you are known as the company that makes phones that are easy to bring down telco cells Sep 03 05:28:20 zr0: This will however knock out 16 or more calls that are in progress at once. Sep 03 05:28:22 the telcos will just black-ban you Sep 03 05:28:34 zr0: And some of these may be emergency calls. Sep 03 05:28:35 raster: frankly, I suspect that telcos' statement that "people would be able to misuse their networks" is somewhat overblown Sep 03 05:28:36 and refuse to sell your phones until you stop being a pain in the arse (in the name of openness) Sep 03 05:28:52 SpeedEvil: but you could still accomplish the same thing by building your own radio.. Sep 03 05:28:53 RST38h: it is - but he moment someone actually does Sep 03 05:29:00 transmitter, whatever Sep 03 05:29:05 and phone makes fear that trememndously Sep 03 05:29:09 they will lose billions fo $ Sep 03 05:29:34 zr0: There is a fucking huge difference between having to obtain your own transmitter, and a 12 year-old being able to install it on his purchased phone. Sep 03 05:29:36 so unless being open generates many billions of $ that makes up for telcos saying "screw you" Sep 03 05:29:37 raster: Similar thing happened with Wifi, and we are all still alive Sep 03 05:29:49 and also runing a rsik of itc bans and other legal bans and repurcussions Sep 03 05:29:54 u avoid the risk :( Sep 03 05:30:02 RST38h: wifi wasnt licensed Sep 03 05:30:04 but people don't make emergency calls via wifi (most of the time) Sep 03 05:30:14 telcos didnt bay billions for the spectrum Sep 03 05:30:15 :) Sep 03 05:30:20 yeah Sep 03 05:30:29 RST38h, the spectrum used by wifi in the states isn't regulated except output power, and is 'subject to interference' Sep 03 05:30:30 and legally its not regulated like cellphone space Sep 03 05:30:33 it sucks Sep 03 05:30:35 but its how it is Sep 03 05:30:55 the best u can hope for is the modem interface being open to the black-box modem Sep 03 05:31:00 SpeedEvil: you think a 12 yearold would figure out how to flash some opensource firmware into a phone? cmon Sep 03 05:31:05 zr0: no. Sep 03 05:31:10 and then hope the modem engineers do a good job exposing most of what is needed safely Sep 03 05:31:18 Hm, what if they jsut locked the use of the registred frequency bands and allowed we to do whatever we want in the unregistred ones? Sep 03 05:31:20 raster: exactly Sep 03 05:31:27 what they think you need Sep 03 05:31:30 but it'll never happen Sep 03 05:31:33 zr0, a 15 year old could Sep 03 05:31:34 zr0: Someone develops that firmware - using the 'you can use this opensource modem' feature - and then releases it. Sep 03 05:31:35 and what u actually want may not be in agreement Sep 03 05:31:42 but maybe over time that will stabilise Sep 03 05:31:44 johnx: the spectrum used by GSM in the US isn't regulated except output power, either Sep 03 05:31:58 not 900 MHz at least :D Sep 03 05:32:08 which spectrum? the US has 2 GSM bands Sep 03 05:32:13 900MHz is not used in the US Sep 03 05:32:27 SpeedEvil: N900 supports it, and it's regulated like 802.11 bands Sep 03 05:32:28 isn't 900mhz also used by wireless landline handsets, babymonitors and abunch of other things like that? Sep 03 05:32:29 it's 850, i believe Sep 03 05:32:40 Also. Sep 03 05:32:44 http://www.smart-wi-fi.com/index.php Sep 03 05:32:51 This is the UMA peoples blog Sep 03 05:33:04 all of their top stories are 'UMA isn't being rolled out'. Sep 03 05:33:15 Pretty much Sep 03 05:33:40 someone needs to create a phone that solely does dect and wifi and can connect to voip providers Sep 03 05:33:47 heh, livewallpaper i8s cte Sep 03 05:33:48 dect? Sep 03 05:33:50 eek Sep 03 05:33:56 is cute, even Sep 03 05:33:59 zr0: keep in mind N900 isn't a phone Sep 03 05:34:01 then the telcos would start implementing uma Sep 03 05:34:10 the problem with that is lack of coverage Sep 03 05:34:12 zr0: no, they wouldn't. Sep 03 05:34:23 zr0: reality: nobody would buy the phone Sep 03 05:34:32 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/900mhz Sep 03 05:34:40 tigert: tigert??? *the* tigert from way back gnomey stuff? Sep 03 05:34:46 oo Sep 03 05:34:50 carsten? Sep 03 05:34:51 aaah bugger Sep 03 05:34:51 luke-jr: uh.. you could market as: a phone you pay $5 a month for Sep 03 05:34:52 because in the real world, people make payments on the phone the telco sends them Sep 03 05:34:58 woot =) Sep 03 05:34:58 ooh wait Sep 03 05:35:00 that was an oo Sep 03 05:35:01 not a no Sep 03 05:35:06 trig WO man! LTNS! Sep 03 05:35:13 bloody hell Sep 03 05:35:13 yeah :) Sep 03 05:35:17 hopw ya doing? Sep 03 05:35:18 I pay $5/mo for my phone plan Sep 03 05:35:20 been motre than a while =) Sep 03 05:35:21 zr0: N810 supported only WiMax and WiFi ;) Sep 03 05:35:26 that I get 1G of data with. Sep 03 05:35:31 more, even. silly typos this morning Sep 03 05:35:32 Well - 3 quid. Sep 03 05:35:44 tigert: heheheh indeed a long while Sep 03 05:35:47 luke-jr: obviously it would have to be a cheapass product to sell Sep 03 05:35:51 but like the N900, it wasn't a phone Sep 03 05:36:00 sure Sep 03 05:36:01 raster: been at nokia for a bunch of years now Sep 03 05:36:07 zr0: you're in the wrong country. Sep 03 05:36:11 tigert: really? didn't know u headed nok-way Sep 03 05:36:21 tigert: doing arty goop? Sep 03 05:36:27 how does UMTS do for coverage area btw? Sep 03 05:36:29 zr0: I can buy a phone for $20 outright. And then get reasonable priced calls on it. Sep 03 05:36:30 or moved to doing other things? Sep 03 05:36:44 my understanding is WCDMA has significantly worse range than GSM did Sep 03 05:36:54 raster: was at ximian/novell for a while and then about the time the N800 was in teh works got there Sep 03 05:37:11 SpeedEvil: if you have good coverage Sep 03 05:37:11 zr0: there's obviously no point in using UMTS over GSM on a cheap product Sep 03 05:37:26 IMO Nokia should release the sucessor of the N900 (as in a device that is at least as good as it in all aspects) that comes with at least two soft-reprogramable transceivers (with frequencies limitations to not break laws of course) Sep 03 05:37:26 raster: did the default theme for N810 Sep 03 05:37:37 the only point to WCDMA over GSM is bandwidth, which is only useful on smartphones or computers Sep 03 05:37:42 raster: then kinda supported folks with N900 theming etc Sep 03 05:37:54 TiagoTiago: not happening Sep 03 05:38:00 why not? Sep 03 05:38:01 raster: going for parental leave in a month though now Sep 03 05:38:02 TiagoTiago: When it would cost $20-$1000 more - depending on the capabilities of these trancievers? Sep 03 05:38:09 raster: how about you? Sep 03 05:38:10 tigert: ooh awesome! so still themeing your little heart away! Sep 03 05:38:11 TiagoTiago: Are you high? Sep 03 05:38:12 TiagoTiago: because the successor of the N900 already exists Sep 03 05:38:14 are those things really that expensive? Sep 03 05:38:18 TiagoTiago: yes. Sep 03 05:38:18 awesome Sep 03 05:38:26 i saw you hacking at openmoko a while back Sep 03 05:38:31 SpeedEvil: don't they use far more power too? Sep 03 05:38:33 and now are they making you learn qml etc.? Sep 03 05:38:42 yeah Sep 03 05:38:43 TiagoTiago: If you're talking of actually flexible trancievers. Sep 03 05:38:47 well, qml is looking neat Sep 03 05:38:48 if the GSM modem can be reprogramed, why would those other radios be so much more expensive? Sep 03 05:38:58 TiagoTiago: Because it can't. Sep 03 05:38:59 i left japan - did my taiwan-half stint Sep 03 05:39:05 and now i'm @ sammy Sep 03 05:39:06 ok Sep 03 05:39:11 TiagoTiago: The GSM modem can send stuff that is GSM-modem-like on the same bands. Sep 03 05:39:12 TiagoTiago: the GSM modem can't be reprogrammed at that low a level Sep 03 05:39:13 TiagoTiago: :) Sep 03 05:39:18 * raster aims his guns @ tigert Sep 03 05:39:19 i thought you said the only obstacles was knowing the hardware and getting the code signed Sep 03 05:39:24 you are now the enemy! MUHAHAHAHAHHAHA Sep 03 05:39:25 :) Sep 03 05:39:27 oh Sep 03 05:39:28 TiagoTiago: It cannot do arbitrary frequencies, or modulations. Sep 03 05:39:33 just kidding :) Sep 03 05:39:36 hehe Sep 03 05:39:42 raster: Sammy? as in Samsung? Sep 03 05:39:44 raster: :) cool for you Sep 03 05:39:50 there is o such thing as a DSP like on soundcards but for radio frequencies? Sep 03 05:39:52 the world needs good pixels Sep 03 05:39:52 Anyway - I'm going to sleep. Sep 03 05:39:55 luke-jr: yes. Sep 03 05:39:56 there is no* Sep 03 05:39:56 TiagoTiago: yes. Sep 03 05:40:02 TiagoTiago: there is, for like $1000 and not pocket-sized Sep 03 05:40:07 TiagoTiago: see OpenBTS Sep 03 05:40:09 at samsung electronics hq in korea Sep 03 05:40:10 :( Sep 03 05:40:18 why are they so expensive? Sep 03 05:40:19 TiagoTiago: sure, but you need a receiver Sep 03 05:40:21 raster: a position to influence future products? :P Sep 03 05:40:42 my PC soundcard can have a the DSP reprogramed to affect input just the same as output Sep 03 05:40:43 making good things happen with cute little sammy devices, boxes, prototypes... and efl :) Sep 03 05:40:56 luke-jr: principal enigneer. so i guess.. yes. :) Sep 03 05:41:11 sammy pestered me until i finally agree dto join and move to ke Sep 03 05:41:14 raster: neat :) Sep 03 05:41:19 so i guess i have something they want Sep 03 05:41:25 beatsm me what it is :) Sep 03 05:41:41 LOL Sep 03 05:41:47 why DSP for radio frequencies would be more expensive? Clock issues? Sep 03 05:41:48 all i want to see is linux become the mainstay of the handset world Sep 03 05:42:06 not android - bny linux i mean gnu/linux/x11/miniature desktop in your pocket Sep 03 05:42:12 TiagoTiago: because radio is black magic Sep 03 05:42:19 lol Sep 03 05:42:24 linux aint gong to win any desktop Sep 03 05:42:30 just lack of consumers to make the price go down? Sep 03 05:42:36 raster: the N900 has been interesting for sure Sep 03 05:42:36 but it hjas a brigh future on things like phones and tablets and so on Sep 03 05:42:40 it sure lost bigtime in netbooks.. Sep 03 05:42:43 linux is a shit desktop Sep 03 05:42:48 tigert: it has. i have one on my desk @ home Sep 03 05:42:51 would we have imagined back then a device like this? Sep 03 05:42:52 raster: get them to make this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/52549449@N05/4915160604/ Sep 03 05:42:52 raster, didn't samsung just announce they're throwing all their effort behind android? Sep 03 05:43:00 raster: and ignore the crappy drawing, it's a failed concept Sep 03 05:43:10 obsidieth: as if there's something better? Sep 03 05:43:15 raster: i am chatting on one, just hopped off tram and got to offices Sep 03 05:43:16 jo news to me... and the few hundred enigneers around me :) Sep 03 05:43:19 windows. Sep 03 05:43:24 obsidieth: LOL Sep 03 05:43:27 oh. i thought i was somewhere else Sep 03 05:43:28 Windows is a terrible desktop Sep 03 05:43:46 it only sells because people don't think they have a choice, and if they do, they're already used to the crappy design of it Sep 03 05:44:17 luke-jr: that argument goes for a lot of things Sep 03 05:44:25 luke-jr: i work in the mobile platform group. as such actual hw is arms-length of influence Sep 03 05:44:25 that thing needs one or two analog nubs and shoulder rockers Sep 03 05:44:26 :) Sep 03 05:44:27 luke-jr: this design is mechanically risky Sep 03 05:44:36 raster, etc. Sep 03 05:44:37 RST38h: hence ignoring the picture Sep 03 05:44:42 raster, http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/02/samsung-we-are-prioritizing-our-android-platform/ Sep 03 05:44:45 raster: so research stuff? Sep 03 05:44:47 tigert: nice. n900 isnt bad.. tho i have to say the software was buggy-as-all-hell Sep 03 05:44:50 raster: that is specs for a mobile platform :P Sep 03 05:44:55 it's a slide combined with a flip Sep 03 05:44:55 it felt entirely alpha Sep 03 05:45:04 well, its not too bad now with updates etc Sep 03 05:45:10 mine brticked itself twice on its own Sep 03 05:45:15 its rough and edgy Sep 03 05:45:24 and would reboot and soldi-hang evetry few mins on average Sep 03 05:45:25 :( Sep 03 05:45:27 but it does a neat job in a segment Sep 03 05:45:43 raster: uh, yours is a bad batch then :P Sep 03 05:45:50 or broken Sep 03 05:45:51 raster: did you read the text part? that's all I mean :P Sep 03 05:45:55 this is pretty solid Sep 03 05:45:57 josamsung is a big place with like 200,000+ people Sep 03 05:45:59 err Sep 03 05:46:03 damned tab compl Sep 03 05:46:11 is there anything fun i can stick in the sd slot (stuff using sdio) that isn't expensive? Sep 03 05:46:14 samsung is like the whole country Sep 03 05:46:21 TiagoTiago, an sd card Sep 03 05:46:23 tigert: with hildon-desktop recompiled from the repository, kernel tweaked, microb replaced with opera, ham replaced with fapman, and modest ignored, it is not that bad :) Sep 03 05:46:24 TiagoTiago: your finger? Sep 03 05:46:24 lol Sep 03 05:46:36 johnx: "we are prioritizing" doesnt eman "We are throwing everything behind this and doing nothing else" Sep 03 05:46:42 there's kia too Sep 03 05:46:42 it means "this is important now" Sep 03 05:46:49 and lg Sep 03 05:46:55 i read there are things like wifi cards and even GPS cards Sep 03 05:47:02 TiagoTiago: not in MicroSD form Sep 03 05:47:16 bigger SD formats? Sep 03 05:47:20 normal SD Sep 03 05:47:31 raster: so what brings you here? :) Sep 03 05:47:32 :( Sep 03 05:47:40 I have a 802.11b CompactFlash… Sep 03 05:47:42 luke-jr: i saw the text. that basically wants a mobile pc. Sep 03 05:47:45 so get one :) Sep 03 05:47:49 sony make some small ones :) Sep 03 05:47:50 raster: those don't exist Sep 03 05:47:57 well, how hard would it be to make a adapter that has a ribbon cable with a plug in the tip shaped like a microSD? Sep 03 05:48:08 well if your pants are big enough Sep 03 05:48:09 TiagoTiago: TIAS Sep 03 05:48:12 it fits in a pocket Sep 03 05:48:14 what is that? Sep 03 05:48:20 ~TIAS Sep 03 05:48:21 Try it and see! You will learn more, and probably have a better feeling of satisfaction, if you experiment with simple cases to learn a language than you will by asking yes or no questions. Sep 03 05:48:25 raster: one requirement is it fits in a normal pocket Sep 03 05:48:29 tigert: ho anyway.. distratced ummm well ijust hang here to listen in Sep 03 05:48:32 hm Sep 03 05:48:37 and see what the nokia/maemo world does Sep 03 05:48:39 and now meego Sep 03 05:48:40 etc. Sep 03 05:48:41 raster: C760 was perfect for its day Sep 03 05:49:19 tho i have to say i am not fond of meego's general dir of "qt and rpm Sep 03 05:49:25 raster: the physical size of this thing could be that of two N810s stacked Sep 03 05:49:29 gbut overall i like many of the goals and ideas Sep 03 05:49:32 yeah, RPM sucks Sep 03 05:49:39 but what's the problem with Qt? you'd rather DirectFB? Sep 03 05:49:40 raster: yeah Sep 03 05:49:42 i don't know enough about the stuff, thigns like impedance, resistance etc, i woudl probably mess up, not to mention the risk of some shaky soldering ending up shorting my expensive N900 Sep 03 05:50:06 luke-jr: sony make a pc thats about that size-ish already Sep 03 05:50:08 have for years Sep 03 05:50:17 raster: well yeah. package management is not interesting to me as long as it works though Sep 03 05:50:19 raster: if so, I think I'd know about and buy it :P Sep 03 05:50:29 luke-jr: qt... c++... its partly the "now u must use c++" Sep 03 05:50:34 we managed to fsck up our debs more than enough in the past Sep 03 05:50:38 and partly just that the qt api ... doesnt feel right for me Sep 03 05:50:41 personaly taste thing Sep 03 05:50:42 raster: meh, Qt is really a new language of its own Sep 03 05:50:44 so its not really about what you use but how you do the stuff :) Sep 03 05:50:46 i never really grew to like it Sep 03 05:50:53 raster: but the alternatives are far worse Sep 03 05:50:57 What OS that Comunicator that had one regular screen and keypad and a qwerty keyboard and widescreen when you flipped it open used? Sep 03 05:50:58 gtk felt much nicer Sep 03 05:51:04 raster: yeah, I still dont code so I dont have an opinion on that so much Sep 03 05:51:07 GTK is slow and ugly Sep 03 05:51:15 hehehe Sep 03 05:51:17 gtk, blech Sep 03 05:51:25 luke-jr: dont get him started on E ;) Sep 03 05:51:26 luke-jr: do u see me using it? Sep 03 05:51:26 :) Sep 03 05:51:30 raster: I can't see any ARM handhelds Sony makes… Sep 03 05:51:37 iw as comparing qt and gtk as api's Sep 03 05:51:44 as toolkits to use from the programming side Sep 03 05:51:48 raster: API is only as good as the implementation Sep 03 05:51:52 luke-jr: they make an x86 on3e Sep 03 05:51:57 raster: x86 is crap Sep 03 05:51:59 install regular linux on it Sep 03 05:52:00 have fun Sep 03 05:52:01 :) Sep 03 05:52:05 regular linux supports ARM Sep 03 05:52:06 * raster shrugs Sep 03 05:52:15 you can start your own hw company and make what u want Sep 03 05:52:15 :) Sep 03 05:52:19 luke-jr: be sure to let intel know that Sep 03 05:52:19 I wish Sep 03 05:52:29 zr0: they probably know Sep 03 05:52:32 raster: < Ankh> tell him I remembr tlkngi ot hmi in cpmm4$tralfisdney wherj d }| Sep 03 05:52:33 ;) Sep 03 05:52:46 tigert: wtf? :) Sep 03 05:52:54 Atom uses like 50 times the power Cortex-A9 does, and Atom is slower Sep 03 05:53:15 raster: I guess quim is referring to your legendary typolanguage in the past :D Sep 03 05:53:17 Intell doesn't make ARM, right? Why the ARM people didn't try to keep Nokia wuth them? OR did they? What happened? Sep 03 05:53:23 tigert: hahahahahahahahhahaha Sep 03 05:53:25 erm Sep 03 05:53:27 liam Sep 03 05:53:29 not quim Sep 03 05:53:29 TiagoTiago: Intel used to make ARM, but they sold it. Sep 03 05:53:33 * tigert mixes those names Sep 03 05:53:34 oh Sep 03 05:53:41 TiagoTiago: Nokia is sticking with ARM afaik Sep 03 05:53:44 tigert: btw - despite my not so fondness of qt.. and rpm - i think the whole meego and even maemo and stuff nokia is doingis good Sep 03 05:53:57 luke-jr: for handsets Sep 03 05:54:00 i keep tabs on it mostly because i dont want an all-out-war ensuing in the linux os space Sep 03 05:54:04 They gonna make ARM Meego devices? Sep 03 05:54:08 TiagoTiago, Nokia is sticking with ARM in the near term and hedging their bets in the long term Sep 03 05:54:12 sure Sep 03 05:54:16 and no "try and bridget the gap" efforts in sight Sep 03 05:54:17 pretty much like *everyone else* with half a clue Sep 03 05:54:17 zr0: if it's not pocketable, size doesn't matter to me :P Sep 03 05:54:20 TiagoTiago: sure, N900 is ARM reference devices Sep 03 05:54:24 Intel still makes ARM CPUs just not for general purpose Sep 03 05:54:26 TiagoTiago: all Nokia MeeGo will be ARM afaik Sep 03 05:54:43 i mean, a device that coems from the factory with MEeGo Sep 03 05:54:56 hm Sep 03 05:55:06 we'll see, i'm sure intel is going to make a series of atom-based tablets Sep 03 05:55:13 TiagoTiago: you realize the N900's successor already is built and in testing? :P Sep 03 05:55:15 i thought they were going to use Intell hardware 'cause of the partnership and all Sep 03 05:55:28 the N9? Sep 03 05:55:34 zr0: as long as their power consumption is terrible, it'll suck Sep 03 05:55:35 TiagoTiago: no, misperception - there's still a large use for ARM meego devices Sep 03 05:55:40 unless they manage to make batteries a lot smaller Sep 03 05:55:46 they dropped too many zeros, that device should stick with Symbian Sep 03 05:55:51 The Harmattan device is ARM-based indeed Sep 03 05:56:09 But the architecture of the followind devices has not been announced Sep 03 05:56:11 the N9 looks unimpressive Sep 03 05:56:25 the N900 looks unimpressive too Sep 03 05:56:25 zr0: what does it look like? :) Sep 03 05:56:31 asj: go check the pics Sep 03 05:56:32 agreed Sep 03 05:56:33 So I would not make any premature conclusions Sep 03 05:56:49 i like how you can tell jsut by the weight that the N900 means busyness Sep 03 05:56:51 zr0: which ones? Sep 03 05:56:53 zr0, in terms of the actual looks or you mean CPU/RAM? Sep 03 05:57:12 aesthetically Sep 03 05:57:24 asj: the teardown? :p Sep 03 05:57:26 although i like the n900 more than the n9 Sep 03 05:57:32 look wise Sep 03 05:57:40 zr0: N810 was better than N900 if you ignore the internals Sep 03 05:57:40 TiagoTiago: its like measuring quality of code by how many lines of code there are. Sep 03 05:57:45 isn't the leaked images from a prototype, likelly to be wearing a temporary case meant jsut to hold the breadboards together? Sep 03 05:57:47 its pointless. Sep 03 05:57:56 the n900 is a fairly bulky and heavy device Sep 03 05:58:03 sure Sep 03 05:58:05 ah those ones Sep 03 05:58:20 compared to my e71, it's a tank Sep 03 05:58:22 and relative to its weight.. its fairly skimpy on performance and other features Sep 03 05:58:23 raster: thats mostly due to the keyboard Sep 03 05:58:24 its "ok" Sep 03 05:58:28 but not amazing Sep 03 05:58:28 zr0: isn't E71 a phone? Sep 03 05:58:33 tigert: possibly Sep 03 05:58:34 zr0: yeah, but the n900 is good for something ;) Sep 03 05:58:36 could be a lot thinner without Sep 03 05:58:48 but then again, the kbd makes it more useful Sep 03 05:58:51 tigert: but kbd or no - next ti my galaxy-s.. it looks primitive and chubby Sep 03 05:58:52 :) Sep 03 05:59:04 text input is a big issue on handhelds that dont have one Sep 03 05:59:07 (and software-wise.. feels that way too) Sep 03 05:59:09 The N900 is heavy enough you can brick someone with it :P Sep 03 05:59:18 comparing a tablet with a phone isn't fair Sep 03 05:59:24 TiagoTiago: you obviously have never helf an E90 Sep 03 05:59:29 hefted Sep 03 05:59:36 lol Sep 03 05:59:46 same soc+screen+everything else prototypes as galaxy-s (ie basically galaxys in a different bit of plastic) run efl and x11 silky smoothly :) Sep 03 05:59:53 raster: well sure, the thing is a year old Sep 03 06:00:08 raster: actually it was announced one year and one day ago Sep 03 06:00:15 with compositing, zero screen update tearing, 32bpp everywhere and more :) Sep 03 06:00:20 tigert: sure :) Sep 03 06:00:23 if all the plastic bits (other than the transparent screen stuff) were replaced with alluminum stuff, would the signal of the many radios suffer? Sep 03 06:00:30 32bpp? X11 doesn't even support that… Sep 03 06:00:38 or at least not Xorg Sep 03 06:00:38 tigert: agreed. 100% :) Sep 03 06:00:44 luke-jr: yes it does Sep 03 06:00:51 it has for a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long time Sep 03 06:01:02 raster: pretty sure not Sep 03 06:01:03 how do u think compositing works.. hwo do u think we have xrender with alpha channels? Sep 03 06:01:12 luke-jr, it supported it before it was xorg. xfree 3 had it Sep 03 06:01:15 those alpha channels aren't in hardware Sep 03 06:01:18 32bpp has been supported since the most ancient xservers Sep 03 06:01:20 TiagoTiago: no Sep 03 06:01:31 it only USEd 24bits of the 32 for color Sep 03 06:01:38 the other bits may or m,ay not have been used Sep 03 06:01:48 but were available to be used for alpha Sep 03 06:01:50 you're talking the LCD, no? Sep 03 06:01:51 hence RGBA Sep 03 06:01:55 I wonder how much it woudl cost to have my N900 retrofitted with aluminum parts (with mate black coating) Sep 03 06:02:00 o(as such in the ancient workstation days - sun/sgi the extra 8 bits were actually the 8bpp color overlay) Sep 03 06:02:10 TiagoTiago: buy a black n8 Sep 03 06:02:19 it runs Symbian, no? Sep 03 06:02:23 as such... x has suported 32bpp since long before you ever even knew linux/xfree86 etc. existed :) Sep 03 06:02:28 TiagoTiago, a couple thousand to a couple million USD depending on how professional you want it Sep 03 06:02:29 TiagoTiago: yes.. Sep 03 06:02:32 raster: not 32bpp colour. :p Sep 03 06:02:40 wow,t hat much? Sep 03 06:02:50 24bpp colour + 8bit alpha Sep 03 06:03:04 and in all cases, it is flattened to 24bpp before getting to the CLD Sep 03 06:03:06 LCD* Sep 03 06:03:10 the professionalism level would be what i Nokia would do if they had made it with aluminum Sep 03 06:03:21 what Nokia* Sep 03 06:03:49 luke-jr: in most cases it only goes to 24bpp when it comes from the ramdac to the screen Sep 03 06:04:05 as far as software, gpu, memory is concerned. its 32bits per pixel Sep 03 06:04:14 would be neat to have a LCD that supported true RGBA :P Sep 03 06:04:22 thats WHY bpp in x11 is separate from visual Sep 03 06:04:23 indeed Sep 03 06:04:23 TiagoTiago: http://www.emachineshop.com/ :) Sep 03 06:04:26 and why u have rgb masks Sep 03 06:04:40 i wouldn't be able to model all the parts correctly Sep 03 06:04:53 luke-jr, so uhm, you get to save one super-optimized blending step and push it off to the monitor? huh? Sep 03 06:04:59 hello, i have a issue while packaging, my app is using the package from other repo which wont be avail by default on n900, i want to make my application to install the dependencies automatically when my application is installed, is there any way to add the required repo dynamically by the package itself? Sep 03 06:05:04 wow, all of these android devices need at least a 1GHz cpu to run.. Sep 03 06:05:08 johnx: no, so alpha 50% means you see through the device Sep 03 06:05:38 johnx: ideally without latency Sep 03 06:05:44 sugnan, I don't think an app like that would be allowed in extras Sep 03 06:05:54 alpha 100% would mean it's a piece of glass in practice Sep 03 06:05:56 but you could just make a .install file that added the repo Sep 03 06:05:59 have you seen that cartton called Zeek's Pad? Sep 03 06:06:07 Cartoon* Sep 03 06:06:29 the magic pad in question is like that Sep 03 06:07:35 it would probably take some real optical hacks or miniaturization leaps to get that in a tablet ofc Sep 03 06:07:52 (I suppose there's probably some way to bend the light around the electronics) Sep 03 06:08:05 I've seen a transparent LCD watch, and also transparent OLED displays, the technology is there already Sep 03 06:08:24 not watch, a clock Sep 03 06:08:44 luke-jr, circuit board goes in the bezel Sep 03 06:08:51 but that's a lot of wasted space for a cool effect Sep 03 06:08:54 though they couldn't sense what was going thru the screen when transparent Sep 03 06:09:31 like, you woudln't be able to take a picture that looks exactly like what you see thru the screen Sep 03 06:09:47 johnx: you're assuming it is only used for effect Sep 03 06:09:55 TiagoTiago: but I guess there the "alpha" means "white"? Sep 03 06:10:12 i'm pretty sure you can have all sorts of electronic stuff made transparent Sep 03 06:10:13 like, remove the back plate and backlight from your monitor and you can see through the image Sep 03 06:10:26 afaik Sep 03 06:10:26 luke-jr, in glasses it'd be nice of course Sep 03 06:10:31 johnx: exactly ☺ Sep 03 06:10:43 but in that case, put the electronics somewhere else Sep 03 06:10:44 the LCD layer woudl control the opacity, going from transparent to black, and the OLED would be for the colors and making white Sep 03 06:10:47 johnx: but I'm told the focus problem would be such it really needs a retina thing Sep 03 06:11:13 raster: but congrats for teh job and good luck :) Sep 03 06:11:18 some LCD monitors can be transformed into projectors with the help of a lamp Sep 03 06:11:23 luke-jr, don't the vuze glasses use mirrors or something? Sep 03 06:11:38 I wonder if it would work to instead of a nanotech OpenGL display that *only* twisted light coming through it (or generated off to the side by R B G LEDs) Sep 03 06:11:52 instead have a* Sep 03 06:12:25 like those micromechanical projection TVs? Sep 03 06:12:53 luke-jr, yeah, but I want mine *this* decade Sep 03 06:13:06 I'll workaround with a hacked pair of vuze glasses if I have to Sep 03 06:13:23 basicly it's an array of tiny mirrors that flick back and forth and a light source that alternates between the 3 colors Sep 03 06:13:26 but I'll wait until I can get at least 640x480 for cheap Sep 03 06:13:29 hehe Sep 03 06:13:43 tigert: thanks man! awesoem to know you're still around. i'm sure i'll see u again :) Sep 03 06:13:45 I once read about this screen technology that workedlike butterfly wings Sep 03 06:13:49 no go and do some work Sep 03 06:13:50 :) Sep 03 06:13:56 raster: yeah, a small world we have Sep 03 06:14:16 indeed Sep 03 06:14:37 garrett is at suse still, I think jimmac went to RH Sep 03 06:15:07 the MyDocs partition can't have infinite recursive subfolders, right? Sep 03 06:15:44 johnx, ok let me be clear about my application, am not using something very out from the repository, actually my requirement is to find whether gcc and supporting libs is installed on n900, the repository required by application wont be available by default on tablet, so can some how specify the repo in debian files? Sep 03 06:15:54 mkdir /home/user/MyDocs/x && mount --rbind /home/user/MyDocs /home/user/MyDocs/x Sep 03 06:15:55 <.< Sep 03 06:16:13 remember that Mydocs is VFAT Sep 03 06:16:14 TiagoTiago, no. folders take up space. also, vfat has a path length limit, IIRC Sep 03 06:16:17 tigert: wow!!! blast from the past... ha! names.... havent crossed my path is years! Sep 03 06:16:23 good Sep 03 06:16:41 raster: I've been keeping in touch on irc with them Sep 03 06:16:53 its good to have peer critique when needed :) Sep 03 06:17:00 with the FTP all the time getting to low 3 digits and then jumping to mid-low 4 digits count for files left i was getting worried Sep 03 06:17:07 TiagoTiago: mount --rbind doesn't care Sep 03 06:17:18 i have built a application using which user can compile, execute and debug c or c++ program in single editor environment, have a look on the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sIhAPcdd9c Sep 03 06:17:38 TiagoTiago: that is indeed true. Sep 03 06:17:40 errr Sep 03 06:17:41 would that result in infinite folders for a SFTP program acessing the partition? Sep 03 06:17:42 sugnan, yes. if you create a .install, it will specify the required repositories to add and a package to install after adding those repositories. that's how firefox (fennec) is distributed for the N900 Sep 03 06:17:43 TiagoTiago: sorry tab-miss Sep 03 06:17:48 tigert: ineed that is true Sep 03 06:17:56 sugnan: so have many people before you, and theirs is probably more mature… Sep 03 06:17:57 tigert: Anything cool/creative you have been doing lately you can talk about? :) Sep 03 06:17:57 tigert: and soem good old trusted voices too Sep 03 06:18:04 TiagoTiago: yes Sep 03 06:18:18 raster: yeah Sep 03 06:18:35 how can i check if it is the case? Sep 03 06:18:35 X-Fade: well, I worked on the harmattan theming stuff Sep 03 06:18:56 not just me though, and it was mostly groundwork there Sep 03 06:19:01 tigert: Ah :) Sep 03 06:19:35 johnx, so the .install file should be clicked and should add the repository before installing my application ? Sep 03 06:19:44 luke-jr, i dint get you Sep 03 06:19:59 sugnan: just saying, nothing special about it… :p Sep 03 06:20:07 tigert: It would be cool if you guys would blog a bit about the cool stuff. You don't see much lately. Sep 03 06:20:15 X-Fade: yeah, I agree Sep 03 06:20:20 hm, i'm reading about femtocells and they mentioned yo'ure not supposed to cross international borders with them, but what happens if you live right next tot he border? Sep 03 06:20:50 TiagoTiago: probably they shut off Sep 03 06:20:57 sugnan, exactly. just look at the .install file for firefox mobile for maemo. it's plain text, easy to understand Sep 03 06:21:01 depending on the border Sep 03 06:21:25 no, i mean, you place it in your living room, plug it in etc, but on the other side of the wall it's another country Sep 03 06:21:37 johnx, thanks Sep 03 06:21:38 TiagoTiago: and I mean, they probably won't turn on Sep 03 06:21:43 oh Sep 03 06:21:45 TiagoTiago: they all have GPS so they know where they are Sep 03 06:21:47 that would suck Sep 03 06:22:16 you paid for the thing, and then it pullls a HAL and tells you "I'm afraid i can't let you do that" Sep 03 06:22:30 eh, I bet they work just fine and no one notices or cares Sep 03 06:22:35 lol Sep 03 06:22:55 btw Sep 03 06:22:57 I've had cell service from my carrier for miles across the canadian border Sep 03 06:23:07 do any countries actually allow you to build your living room wall on a border? Sep 03 06:23:30 good question Sep 03 06:23:48 probably happens in those countries that split up recently Sep 03 06:24:21 that still happens? Sep 03 06:24:33 in any case, wouldn't they put the border between buildings? Sep 03 06:25:01 luke-jr, well, the buildings they *know* about Sep 03 06:25:07 perhaps it's a really big block? Sep 03 06:25:21 if you have a house in the middle of nowhere I could see them painting a border through it Sep 03 06:25:26 TiagoTiago: borders do funny shapes Sep 03 06:25:28 lol Sep 03 06:25:53 ello Sep 03 06:25:58 hi Mece Sep 03 06:26:00 johnx: I think in that case, the whole house would still be considered part of the country the mailbox is in Sep 03 06:26:20 but the buildings coudl have been built against each other Sep 03 06:26:23 huh...yeah, if there's mail service to it ... Sep 03 06:26:25 TiagoTiago: uh, no Sep 03 06:26:42 there are some places where there are buildings like that Sep 03 06:26:44 TiagoTiago: if they're touching, then it's one building :P Sep 03 06:26:48 catch you guys later. gotta focus for a sec Sep 03 06:26:51 can someone show me a tilde? Sep 03 06:26:55 ≈≈≈≈≈` Sep 03 06:26:55 even if you have to go outside to get to the other? Sep 03 06:26:57 ~ Sep 03 06:26:57 ~ Sep 03 06:27:06 TiagoTiago: yeah Sep 03 06:27:10 ~seen khertan Sep 03 06:27:11 * luke-jr likes his tildes better Sep 03 06:27:13 khertan was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 19h 50m 14s ago, saying: 'i ve already tryed :)'. Sep 03 06:27:28 infobot: seen Mece Sep 03 06:27:29 mece is currently on #maemo (1m 52s). Has said a total of 3 messages. Is idling for 18s, last said: '~seen khertan'. Sep 03 06:27:36 no tilde required Sep 03 06:27:37 Mece: fn-symb :) Sep 03 06:27:38 thanks Sep 03 06:27:56 X-Fade, doesn't work today for some reason Sep 03 06:28:07 * luke-jr bets that in any other channels, "can someone show me a tilde" would be taken as flamebait Sep 03 06:28:14 lol Sep 03 06:28:31 only here do we understand the sadness of not having a tilde key… Sep 03 06:28:35 Well it used to be, How can I type | :) Sep 03 06:29:02 hehe Sep 03 06:29:04 hmm.. i do have tilde Sep 03 06:29:26 TiagoTiago: anyhow, I don't get what's the need to cram people in so tight Sep 03 06:29:47 TiagoTiago: even if everyone in the world moved to Texas, there'd be enough space for each individual to have his own large 3 bedroom house Sep 03 06:30:00 i read that the pipe and the split pipe are considered the same cause no one cared for making them be enconded differently even if they look different, i don't like it, it looks wrong in the key it's split but when i type it's not Sep 03 06:30:12 isn't that just everyone in the US? Sep 03 06:30:23 TiagoTiago: they ARE encoded differently Sep 03 06:30:50 well, that is not what i remember reading when i was reading baout Unicode Sep 03 06:31:22 the key in my keyboard looks like a split pipe, but when i type, usually it's a regular pipe, but in some fonts and codepages it is split Sep 03 06:31:34 | vs ¦ Sep 03 06:31:38 yeah Sep 03 06:31:55 the key in my keyboard looks like the second but types the first Sep 03 06:31:58 TiagoTiago: your keyboard is mislabelled :P Sep 03 06:31:58 | Sep 03 06:32:03 |¦| Sep 03 06:32:03 |¦| Sep 03 06:32:04 |¦| Sep 03 06:32:05 :( Sep 03 06:32:09 hah, road :) Sep 03 06:32:13 lol Sep 03 06:32:25 lo Sep 03 06:32:43 i wonder how long untill the print on the keys go away and i can have a hacker keyboard for free Sep 03 06:33:06 haa ~ Sep 03 06:33:31 TiagoTiago: vertical bar is U+007C, and broken bar is U+00A6 Sep 03 06:34:00 ¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦|¦| Sep 03 06:34:03 yay! :D Sep 03 06:35:26 I wish i could setup a bunch of additional keyboards making my computer desk like a airliner cockpit so i could have single keypresses to generate all the nice unicode chars i want Sep 03 06:35:54 … Sep 03 06:36:10 there are lots of them Sep 03 06:36:16 ☺ Sep 03 06:36:27 see :) Sep 03 06:36:31 ☠ Sep 03 06:37:19 ♩♪♫♬ Sep 03 06:44:06 in big cities, would it be possible to form a mesh network with all just about all the mobile phones and similar devices in such a way thateveryone could reach everyone? Sep 03 06:44:29 TiagoTiago: I don't think it would be practical Sep 03 06:44:46 the latency would be too much, and the bandwidth probably wouldn't work out well Sep 03 06:44:57 even if distributed? Sep 03 06:45:31 … Sep 03 06:45:54 any way other than shortest path would just make the latency worse Sep 03 06:46:06 but what about hte bandwidth? Sep 03 06:47:41 nfc Sep 03 06:48:00 TiagoTiago: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ruby-Star-Airways/Antonov-An-12BK/1357507/L/ <- simple and clean like this? :) Sep 03 06:49:37 yep Sep 03 06:49:50 but with more knobs and less dials Sep 03 06:50:01 :) Sep 03 06:50:40 :P Sep 03 06:50:53 what's the difference between knobs and dials? Sep 03 06:50:54 <.< Sep 03 06:51:04 lol Sep 03 06:51:34 in this sense, i meant the thingies with the clock arms go away, and the thingies you grab and twist come in Sep 03 07:00:03 ~seen khertan_work Sep 03 07:00:08 khertan_work was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 22h 14m 47s ago, saying: 'bye'. Sep 03 07:00:37 anyone having trouble with khteditor 0.4-1? Sep 03 07:04:18 crap, yet again 1500+ files left...i really hope it's not an infinite recursive subfolder thing going on Sep 03 07:10:54 ok, so this might be a stupid question with an obvious answer, but do we have pyqt and/or pyside in meego? Sep 03 07:12:07 wow, i'm reading about emergency numbers world wide, it's crazy how varied they are 0.0 Sep 03 07:12:28 for me, it's 123456789*0# Sep 03 07:12:36 lol Sep 03 07:12:38 (no, not really) Sep 03 07:14:14 I read a tweet the other day that someone fried his n900 by oc:ing. anyone see more info about this? Sep 03 07:14:19 I'm kinda curious Sep 03 07:15:06 my /opt partition got fucked, my guess is because of OC'ing Sep 03 07:15:56 TiagoTiago, well, if you could fix it with a flash it doesn't count. Sep 03 07:16:27 i haven't tried flahsing yet, still backuping MyDocs over wiifi Sep 03 07:16:57 i flashed the kernel only, that didn't help Sep 03 07:20:03 morning Sep 03 07:20:13 morning Sep 03 07:21:39 more OC victims Sep 03 07:21:52 well, your own bloody faults Sep 03 07:21:52 :P Sep 03 07:24:47 in the end o f course it was me that pressed the keys, but there lots of people trying to convince people that OC'ing is all rainbows and lollipops Sep 03 07:24:50 but this one said he fried his processor. I can't find the tweet :/ Sep 03 07:25:39 he got a galaxy or something because he oc:d his n900 to death or something like that. Sep 03 07:26:08 well, everybody here was warning you Sep 03 07:26:18 except some morons that were saying it's all safe Sep 03 07:26:37 "LOLOLO N900 SUX I CANT OVERCLOCK IT TO OVER 9000 GHZ GETTING A GALAXY ROFL{ Sep 03 07:26:41 *" Sep 03 07:27:01 lol Sep 03 07:27:12 it's safe if you have infinite money to buy more n900s Sep 03 07:27:23 and if you have, i really hate you :< Sep 03 07:27:31 i wish Sep 03 07:27:40 wanna be hated? Sep 03 07:27:53 lol, no, i wish i could afford more N900s Sep 03 07:28:06 no it was a quite friendly message iirc. Like "testing the now, since I might have been the first to actually oc my n900 to death ;)" Sep 03 07:28:11 or something Sep 03 07:28:13 haters gonna hate Sep 03 07:28:56 if it was just one or two more it owudln't be usefull, i wouldn't have the guts to spend so much money and not have any left, so if i could afford mroe N900s with ease, i would send a few to anyone that asked :) Sep 03 07:28:59 i want a case for the n900 that guarantees complete survival in case of a baseball bat Sep 03 07:29:00 "i've got my own philosophy, I hate everyone equally" :) Sep 03 07:29:26 that probably would require an inertial dampener Sep 03 07:29:32 and now he's got galaxy so he'll overclock that as well until it dies like how he treated his n900? Sep 03 07:30:17 my n900 is perfectly fine and as fast as it needs to go. Modded the transitions a little, an it's quite nice. So I don't have the slightest temptation to oc. Also it's my only phone, and I'm poor. Sep 03 07:31:03 it started witht hevoltages thing, and pepople reporting they were getting better battery life with bigger clocks......i fell for it Sep 03 07:31:20 kinda blows that I don't have an extra because I want to test some stuff in meego but can't really do it since I need to be able to answer the phone and such. Sep 03 07:31:24 you like big clocks, do you Sep 03 07:31:32 lol Sep 03 07:31:44 I like big clocks, I cannot lie, you other brothers can't deny... Sep 03 07:32:14 if you haven't watched videos of cpu without any proper cooling, being overclocked like hell and was fried as a result then you have much to learn Sep 03 07:32:49 i know all about the egg frying video cards Sep 03 07:32:51 That when a clock walks in with an itty bitty strap And a round thing in your face, you get sprung... Sep 03 07:32:57 aaanyway Sep 03 07:33:55 thankfully the n900's gpu isn't overclockable yet Sep 03 07:34:09 well it is part of main CPU Sep 03 07:34:14 psycho_oreos: you sure? Sep 03 07:34:18 and it's same DPLL that controls it Sep 03 07:34:25 so it can be overclocked Sep 03 07:34:27 hello Sep 03 07:34:32 I don't like that I have to use flasher to boot meego, it would be nice with multiboot or whatever that bootmenu thing is called. Is that doable? Sep 03 07:34:39 probably Sep 03 07:34:44 luke-jr, no but not like as if I'm keen on overclocking in general anyway Sep 03 07:34:45 psycho_oreos, it can be oc'd and has been done. Sep 03 07:34:52 does anybody work with a nokia n900 -> funambol -> funambolzimbra connector -> zimbra zcs? Sep 03 07:34:55 there was all this talk about how the processors of the n900 were actually from a batch that was meant for higher clcoks but got declined, but from all the people OC'ing it seems most of the processors could handle a significant fraction of the original maximum Sep 03 07:35:05 i can sync contacts, but calendar gives me this: UNSUPPORTED MEDIA TYPE Sep 03 07:35:29 TiagoTiago: the point is that they can't handle it Sep 03 07:35:34 TiagoTiago: thing is that it will work stable Sep 03 07:35:42 TiagoTiago: but it will make life shorter Sep 03 07:35:51 TiagoTiago: even on high speed version Sep 03 07:35:52 mece, meh I stand corrected, but I really don't understand the obsession with overclocking in devices that: 1) does not have any form of vents visible and 2) is cramped in a small space with other chipsets Sep 03 07:36:06 psycho_oreos: take a look again Sep 03 07:36:15 psycho_oreos: there are almost no electronics inside n900 Sep 03 07:36:23 i didn't even do it for the performance, but for the battery life Sep 03 07:36:24 psycho_oreos: two ARM cpus and that's all Sep 03 07:36:32 psycho_oreos, because you can I guess. Sep 03 07:36:36 jacekowski, you still have a very small case to deal with Sep 03 07:36:49 psycho_oreos, it's kinda big, imo. Sep 03 07:37:00 jacekowski, and with lack of vents its a bit of wonder Sep 03 07:37:09 yeah, going faster will totally consume less gas Sep 03 07:37:16 mece, not really, judging by the FCC pics but I could be wrong, never bothered to pull mine appart Sep 03 07:37:25 s/appart/apart/ Sep 03 07:37:25 psycho_oreos meant: mece, not really, judging by the FCC pics but I could be wrong, never bothered to pull mine apart Sep 03 07:37:27 speaking of gas, is this gas bubble thing a gigantic cpu hog. Looks cool. Sep 03 07:37:57 psycho_oreos, I meant that the n900 case is big in comparison to many mobile devices. A lot of space there. Sep 03 07:38:32 mece, I'm talking about space for the chips to breathe, if there's no proper vents its like forcing you to work in a puny sweatshop Sep 03 07:38:38 I demoed bambuser on N900 today at a lecture today. Sep 03 07:38:50 it's quite good. Sep 03 07:39:04 like it much better thatn qik, (who went and sold out anyway) Sep 03 07:39:32 the course is a project course which is the same one where the original bambuser protocols were first created, incidentally :) Sep 03 07:39:54 the whole device is kinda dense though, for it's size it's kinda heavy Sep 03 07:40:10 TiagoTiago, it's manly :) Sep 03 07:40:15 lol Sep 03 07:40:24 did any of you watch the bbc mini "Sherlock"? Sep 03 07:40:29 I think watson had an N900 Sep 03 07:40:31 someone work with funambol and nokia n900? syncevolution? Sep 03 07:48:53 102 files left, will it jump to 4 digits again? 0.0 Sep 03 07:49:35 mece: eh? Sep 03 07:49:37 75 Sep 03 07:50:05 we don't get that type of BBC over here, only the news variation Sep 03 07:51:39 i wish i had one of those FLIR cameras to see how the N900 heats up and how it dissipates heat better Sep 03 07:52:13 it's quite hot after more than an hour transfering files over wifi while plugged int he charger.... Sep 03 07:53:10 its usually hot around the camera area afaik Sep 03 07:53:52 its hot all over Sep 03 07:56:35 yeah but its hotter around the camera area for me imo Sep 03 08:01:25 it's done, now to reflash it Sep 03 08:05:32 Nokia should start testing the limits of overclocking of their new devices, and always make sure the chips can handle at least 50% over the clock covered by the warranty, that will make people like Nokia even more Sep 03 08:05:53 well they did and warned people Sep 03 08:05:53 :P Sep 03 08:06:21 wait, it was supposed to handle 50% over 600MHz? Sep 03 08:06:33 Dumb idea, sorry Sep 03 08:07:04 If the cpu could run on 1Ghz without issues, don't you think it would have been the default? Sep 03 08:07:17 If the chip manufacturer tells you that they only guarantee correct operation up to frequency X, you either believe them or risk Trouble Sep 03 08:07:49 there still the risk it would eventually fail Sep 03 08:07:53 the same goes with every other chips basically, if you overclocking you take all sorts of matters into your own hands Sep 03 08:07:54 In fact, even if the bloody manufacturer guarantees you frequency X, it is still not given that their SoC will work at that frequency Sep 03 08:08:01 Tiago: Not that Sep 03 08:08:11 like how they test the phones under desert and artic conditions etc Sep 03 08:08:23 There is a much higher risk than once you start writing high perf code for this chip, your code will inexplicably fail Sep 03 08:08:46 Memory interface timing issue. Has not been caught by the manufacturer. Too late now. You are fucked. Sep 03 08:09:26 (and yes, I have got these more than once) Sep 03 08:10:25 * mece is a little tired of the whole oc discussion. It's all very 'meh'. Sep 03 08:10:27 Morning, all Sep 03 08:10:41 Making sure your devices can handle way more than what is covered by the warranty without issues would be a huge money saver cause you won't need to replace for free so many devices, and people will like you better for making your devices tough Sep 03 08:10:58 Tiago: Wrong answer, sorry. Sep 03 08:10:59 morning Jaffa Sep 03 08:11:05 TiagoTiago: They could also just lock you out and be sure it doesn't get overclocked. Sep 03 08:11:14 TiagoTiago: What would you rather have? :) Sep 03 08:11:20 nah, that makes people not like you Sep 03 08:11:20 TiagoTiago: so basically what you're saying is "Nokia should underclock the devices they sell -- potentially ruining the experience for the general population, so that a bunch of idiots can feel their e-peen grow as they overclock their device?" Sep 03 08:11:22 and if it doesn't take more criticisms just because its stated that you're not supposed to deregulate what was written in the manual? Sep 03 08:11:23 well, there are cases that chipmakers will do just one chip to cut the costs and then sell the same chip with multiple specs Sep 03 08:11:39 if you now the chip can run at a higher frequence im pretty sure every manufacturer out there would label it with the higher freq... Sep 03 08:11:57 s/now/know/ Sep 03 08:11:57 frals meant: if you know the chip can run at a higher frequence im pretty sure every manufacturer out there would label it with the higher freq... Sep 03 08:12:01 aaha ftw! Sep 03 08:12:12 the other day here someone told me Nokia tests phones under desert and artic conditions, that surelly can't be covered by the warranty Sep 03 08:12:21 If you would have read the actual specs of the cpu, you see the interesting MTBF table. Sep 03 08:12:28 This has nothing to do with cpu clock speed Sep 03 08:12:31 but they are nokia test phones not consumer phones Sep 03 08:12:39 TiagoTiago: operating conditions covered by warranty are listed on box/in manual afaik Sep 03 08:12:56 i woudln't expect Earth's extreme climates to be covered Sep 03 08:13:08 But enough other people would Sep 03 08:13:09 TiagoTiago: actually, it's far more likely that use in the desert/arctic shouldn't damage the device, and would be covered by warranty, rather than overclock the shit out of it Sep 03 08:13:26 this again? Sep 03 08:13:35 MohammadAG51: TiagoTiago is being an idiot Sep 03 08:13:39 Mohammad: Getting newbies all the time here Sep 03 08:13:42 that is why i only said 50% over and not an order of magnitude above Sep 03 08:13:43 big bad boys have told me that some desktop cpu's are sold like that. not like all but in same cases, overclockers usually hunt down certain patch numbers of certain chips cuz they have been verified to be "better" than advertized where as chip sold with same but but maybe from different factory or patch, its not "as good". Sep 03 08:13:48 Mohammad: And they are all pretty predictable, too Sep 03 08:14:12 * MohammadAG51 doesn't scroll up Sep 03 08:14:13 jani: not patch, you're thinking WBN Sep 03 08:14:15 lemme guess Sep 03 08:14:26 jani: "Week Build Number" Sep 03 08:14:30 600MHz is an underclock cause nokia are idiots Sep 03 08:14:52 the "community" knows what's best Sep 03 08:14:53 well, wrong term but that was what i was referring to. Sep 03 08:14:54 MohammadAG51: close, "Nokia should ensure that people can overclock their device by 50% safely" Sep 03 08:14:55 1.7GHz ftw Sep 03 08:14:57 Ah, the length some people would go to due to the lack of social life... Sep 03 08:15:27 crashanddie, uh Sep 03 08:15:36 at least int he laboratory they would verify it doesn't add any risk, but of course, ti woudln't be covered int he warranty Sep 03 08:15:44 so underclock to less than 600MHz so users can overclock to 600? Sep 03 08:15:51 that's... retarded Sep 03 08:15:52 TiagoTiago: did you study to be this stupid? Sep 03 08:15:55 overclockers should always prepare a large wad of cash to ooze such things at and shouldn't complain if their overclocked device fries Sep 03 08:16:12 * MohammadAG51 has a suggestion Sep 03 08:16:17 that's the part and parcel you have to take for being stupid Sep 03 08:16:32 especially when you consider that most of the these discussions, be them overclocking desktop CPUs or mobile phones are based on nothing scientific, but rather just, in best case scenarios, "educated hunches" Sep 03 08:16:32 whenever overclocking is mentioned, let the user keep yapping and ignore the discussion Sep 03 08:16:36 if that Sep 03 08:16:44 MohammadAG51: yeah, or +q Sep 03 08:16:55 wfm Sep 03 08:17:06 only ops have power to +q, normal users can only /ignore :) Sep 03 08:17:17 crashanddie, is an op Sep 03 08:17:27 go ahead Sep 03 08:17:36 lol Sep 03 08:17:37 ok, i guess i see your point, yeah, it would be quite difficult to be able to achieve those results without the overclock actually being regular clock Sep 03 08:17:59 hm, the backup didn't trigger any installation, where are all my apps? Sep 03 08:18:06 too quick, I don't even have a script to do that anyway, but *shrugs* Sep 03 08:18:16 it oppened HAM but then nothign happened Sep 03 08:18:17 who needs a script? Sep 03 08:18:28 /mkick ftw Sep 03 08:18:32 (don't do that) Sep 03 08:18:32 grep the target :) Sep 03 08:18:35 ah, operation in progress, ok Sep 03 08:18:35 seriously, don't Sep 03 08:18:40 m=mass Sep 03 08:18:46 MohammadAG51: nobody's an op Sep 03 08:19:02 chanserv can also clear the channel if needed be Sep 03 08:19:04 crashanddie, you don't know what op might wanna try it :P Sep 03 08:19:17 Irssi: Unknown command: mkick Sep 03 08:19:23 xchat only Sep 03 08:19:35 it kicks everyone Sep 03 08:19:39 lame Sep 03 08:19:49 easier to +m the channel Sep 03 08:20:23 well, it works in certain scenarios Sep 03 08:20:37 like when moving channels Sep 03 08:20:45 or channel takeovers Sep 03 08:20:50 +i the channel, mkick Sep 03 08:21:04 psycho_oreos: no, chanserv doesn't "clear" the channel. recover allows you to remove the bans that affect a specific op, deop everyone else, mute the channel, let you join and auto-op you when you join Sep 03 08:21:08 psycho_oreos, glines ftw, well... at least on private servers Sep 03 08:21:34 crashanddie, o.O ok maybe not on this services, but I believe there was on others, can't remember which Sep 03 08:21:47 which is a lot more effective than any kind of mass-kick which is just silly Sep 03 08:21:51 MohammadAG51, lol glines require oper powers or in this case staff Sep 03 08:21:55 the whole point about having a channel with people is to keep them there Sep 03 08:22:07 hm can you access the n900 file system on linux in pc suite mode like the gay phone browser you get on win then? Sep 03 08:22:11 psycho_oreos, that's why i said private severs ;) Sep 03 08:22:22 merlin1991, ifup usb0 Sep 03 08:22:33 merlin1991, you can if you use usb networking and sshfs Sep 03 08:22:37 MohammadAG51, lol Sep 03 08:22:50 doh I hoped there would be another way :D Sep 03 08:22:54 merlin1991, actually usb networking is optional, sshfs is mandatory Sep 03 08:22:58 TiagoTiago: anyways, so what frequency you were using and for how long? Sep 03 08:23:08 900 for a few days Sep 03 08:23:14 merlin1991: you can Sep 03 08:23:37 I bet I'll loose my 3g connection then though :D Sep 03 08:23:40 wish me luck Sep 03 08:23:41 merlin1991: but you can do it in normal memory stick like mode Sep 03 08:23:48 * TiagoTiago goes do some math to see if that is 50% over Sep 03 08:23:59 but I want to transfer files now and I'm using it as a modem Sep 03 08:24:07 TiagoTiago: it is Sep 03 08:24:08 it doesn't need epic math skills Sep 03 08:24:20 oh, right Sep 03 08:24:25 but government would tell you it's onlu 33% Sep 03 08:24:26 i'm not thinking straight Sep 03 08:24:29 there's many ways, pc suite software over wine, pc suite software over windows inside vm, using another daemon like nfs, etc Sep 03 08:24:33 it it would be tax Sep 03 08:24:35 not frequency Sep 03 08:24:35 should be sleeping, but stayed awake to try to fix things Sep 03 08:25:26 hm, will it be a problem that a couple of the stuff the backup is restoring in HAM need rebooting? Sep 03 08:38:51 hm I'm getting errors when using ifup usb0 and ifdown usb0 Sep 03 08:39:11 ok Sep 03 08:39:26 ifup tells me /usr/lib/avahi/avahi-daemon-check-dns.sh: line 143: diff: not found Sep 03 08:39:30 ignore it Sep 03 08:39:35 but the interface gets up Sep 03 08:39:40 same here Sep 03 08:40:05 ifdown does the same + an errorline with sh: missing ] Sep 03 08:45:22 * merlin1991 wonders what the pw of the "user" user is Sep 03 08:45:55 why would anybody need pw for it Sep 03 08:46:07 I have no idea, just a thought :D Sep 03 08:47:07 and now it's time for another newb question, anyone got a link to a tutorial on coding c using glib? Sep 03 08:47:31 gotta give nokia the props though, even after i messed up, it seems i don't even need to to send my N900 to a repair shop to fix things, i'm doing it myself, and i don't even need a screwdriver :D Sep 03 08:52:42 merlin1991: google does Sep 03 08:52:50 merlin1991: by the way, is 1991 your birth year? Sep 03 08:52:53 crap, to install the backuped applicaitons int will use more memory than i have somehow Sep 03 08:53:12 crashanddie, google had loads, one worse than the other, and jup it is Sep 03 08:53:20 no, it can't be Sep 03 08:53:25 kids born after 1990 can't talk Sep 03 08:53:27 they're too young Sep 03 08:53:30 hehe Sep 03 08:53:31 crap Sep 03 08:53:32 I'm old Sep 03 08:53:50 atm I'm sitting @ the army base doing my mandatory service with a notebook, lol Sep 03 08:54:07 I know some kid who was born on 1st January 2000 Sep 03 08:54:22 I think kids born after 1990 are more or less the i-gen or so I hope (yay, hopefully we can finally set a barrier for gen-y and i-gen) Sep 03 08:54:24 bloody easy to remember his birthday (even though nobody ever celebrates it) Sep 03 08:54:36 I feel so old Sep 03 08:54:52 that's because you are Sep 03 08:54:54 could be worse, he could have been born xmass morning Sep 03 08:55:07 TiagoTiago: nha, that's fine Sep 03 08:55:30 TiagoTiago: imagine when you're 18, everyone gets wasted at 31st december around 23:30 Sep 03 08:55:36 then everyone starts yapping about "Happy new year" Sep 03 08:55:45 and nobody wishes you a happy birthday -- they're all puking Sep 03 08:55:50 so crashanddie maybe you have a nice url for me? Sep 03 08:55:57 crashanddie: lol Sep 03 08:56:00 kids born that time often don't get birthday gifts, and the gifts they get are less expensive cause everyone is buying everyone gifts Sep 03 08:56:22 merlin1991: maybe, but you're not going to like it Sep 03 08:56:35 perfect then, share it Sep 03 08:57:18 gonna unisntall everything and then restore first the essentials fromt he backup, and only then gradually reinstall stuff Sep 03 08:58:07 merlin1991: http://tinyurl.com/ylhz9x6 Sep 03 08:58:30 merlin1991, protip: antagonizing crashanddie will not get you what you want Sep 03 08:59:19 hmmm brownout here. guess that means bedtime Sep 03 08:59:25 good luck Sep 03 08:59:27 johnx: night mate Sep 03 09:00:25 i guess 'ill be goign too, the sun is rising again.... Sep 03 09:02:04 cya Sep 03 09:21:04 If only Nokia would open source that new gas balls app :/ Sep 03 09:21:15 I really want to write my own :) Sep 03 09:21:43 gas balls? Sep 03 09:21:44 wtf Sep 03 09:21:44 Think I might have to look into reversing it today, I know it's using gles Sep 03 09:22:08 gas balls? Sep 03 09:22:08 :| Sep 03 09:22:21 MohammadAG: it's a relly nice pretty app that can run as a desktop background. Sep 03 09:22:31 oh, it's not fart-related Sep 03 09:22:45 Much better than the one thnat's being developed in maemo at the moment. Sep 03 09:22:47 kerio, err, no one farts from their balls Sep 03 09:22:54 Hahah Sep 03 09:22:57 but in zero-gravity, you fart gas balls Sep 03 09:23:10 It's on Ovi, check it out, it's really pretty :) Sep 03 09:23:35 * MohammadAG apt-gets gas-balls Sep 03 09:24:01 And free, developed byu "Nokia" but not open :/ Sep 03 09:24:23 * kerio gets his nokia-bashing suit Sep 03 09:25:41 heh Sep 03 09:25:52 widgets move, background doesn't Sep 03 09:25:57 the way live-bg should do it Sep 03 09:26:35 You think it's a widget? Sep 03 09:27:24 * hrw played with Qt Creator - nice IDE Sep 03 09:27:40 hrw: yeah, I use it quite a lot now. Sep 03 09:28:21 alterego, it's not a widget, that's for sure Sep 03 09:28:33 too bad that Qt Simulator does not have proper Maemo widgets emulation Sep 03 09:28:42 yeah, looks like a new layer just above the root window Sep 03 09:29:19 hrw: too bad it doesn't have a lot of proper emulation, the only thing I found it particulalry useful for was QtQuick Sep 03 09:30:00 alterego, it sees widgets Sep 03 09:31:11 Yeah, I know technically how to do all of that Sep 03 09:31:49 It's the main window I want to create though :) Sep 03 09:38:20 waZZZd moo Sep 03 09:40:43 wazd: got the email? Sep 03 09:42:00 hmm Sep 03 09:42:01 morning andre__ Sep 03 09:42:09 heja Sep 03 09:42:16 alterego, hildon-desktop sees it as a background image Sep 03 09:42:31 Really, how so? Sep 03 09:42:56 idk, the menu mirrors it Sep 03 09:43:04 it only does that to backgrounds Sep 03 09:43:41 Oh, you mean the task switcher and app launcher menu? Sep 03 09:43:50 Yeah, that's also neat. Sep 03 09:46:12 Seems to use some low level X stuff Sep 03 09:47:52 Hahah Sep 03 09:48:07 https://projects.forum.nokia.com/gasballs/browser Sep 03 09:49:47 RST38h: yeah, heya :) Sep 03 09:49:56 I don't know if that means the source will appear one day, though probably not. Sep 03 09:50:05 RST38h: already forwarded it to Vlad Sep 03 09:51:29 once i got my widgets behind the menu Sep 03 09:51:31 not sure why Sep 03 09:52:03 glitched pretty badly though Sep 03 09:52:29 morn achipa Sep 03 09:52:56 alterego, gas balls is indeed nice isnt it Sep 03 09:53:10 MohammadAG51:found what I was looking for: http://maemo.gitorious.org/fremantle-hildon-desktop/hildon-desktop/blobs/master/tests/test-live-bg.c Sep 03 09:53:14 lcuk really loves gas balls Sep 03 09:53:23 That's an exqample of live backgrounds in hildon Sep 03 09:53:27 have you looked at some of the other livebg stuff coming from vlad and tania and the omweather crew Sep 03 09:53:31 gas balls? Sep 03 09:53:34 any screenshots? Sep 03 09:53:35 I wonder if that live bg app uses it .. Sep 03 09:53:52 alterego, that was highlighted to vlad a long time ago :) Sep 03 09:53:57 lcuk: have not no, anything interesting? Sep 03 09:53:58 hes come very far with livebg so far Sep 03 09:54:03 and can plug in lots of things Sep 03 09:54:06 its worth a look Sep 03 09:54:14 hmmmm Sep 03 09:54:15 http://www.my-maemo.com/software/applications.php?fldAuto=1859&faq=32&appname=Gas-Balls Sep 03 09:54:18 k Sep 03 09:54:20 got xscreensavers and videos and even game backgrounds from what i can see Sep 03 09:54:25 look at this video there Sep 03 09:54:33 and that flashing light on left side of a phone Sep 03 09:54:36 proximity sensor Sep 03 09:54:39 jacekowski, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChaLlSaGrGc Sep 03 09:54:39 alterego, plugin support for new things Sep 03 09:54:41 why is it active? Sep 03 09:54:46 i even think theres support for yuv underlay Sep 03 09:55:01 lcuk, have you compared cpu usage? Sep 03 09:55:08 Yeah, I did see that :) Sep 03 09:55:08 mece no but you can Sep 03 09:55:13 Hahah Sep 03 09:55:18 Stskeeps: morn (well, noon more like :) Sep 03 09:55:21 theres a big wiki page with the xscreensavers at least Sep 03 09:55:33 showing the low/high cpu ones Sep 03 09:55:41 I want to do some location awae backgrounds :) Sep 03 09:56:18 lcuk, I like the fact that gasballs doesn't scroll Sep 03 09:56:29 haven't tested it at all though. Sep 03 09:56:42 jacekowski, the proximity sensor is always active Sep 03 09:56:45 alterego, a nice thing which would be good is automatic enable/disable of the "Rich animation" setting on livebg based on charging/battery status Sep 03 09:57:00 MohammadAG: who came up with such a braindead idea? Sep 03 09:57:18 mece sure Sep 03 09:57:20 idk lol, same with the N97 Sep 03 09:57:24 and the 5800 Sep 03 09:57:29 MohammadAG: so is the ambient light sensor Sep 03 09:57:39 that sucks Sep 03 09:58:03 and the camera cover proximity sensor Sep 03 09:58:12 that too Sep 03 09:58:15 that sort of makes sense Sep 03 09:58:17 but afaik Sep 03 09:58:22 that's not a proximity sensor Sep 03 09:58:22 but proximity sensor no Sep 03 09:58:31 so what is it? Sep 03 09:58:36 MohammadAG: yeah it is. Sep 03 09:58:40 it depends on the colour of the surface covering it Sep 03 09:58:54 Can we read it? Sep 03 09:58:54 get a black and a white paper Sep 03 09:59:00 white activates camera, black doesn't Sep 03 09:59:20 color sensor! ^-^ Sep 03 09:59:22 let's call it a racist sensor, for now Sep 03 09:59:28 Hahah Sep 03 09:59:32 Okay Sep 03 09:59:38 MohammadAG, LOL Sep 03 09:59:39 "nigometer" Sep 03 09:59:46 or is that to far? Sep 03 09:59:58 MohammadAG, actually it's a race sensor. It might be racist, but it doesn't detect racists. Sep 03 10:00:06 ok Sep 03 10:00:12 another quote on my list Sep 03 10:00:20 k, the camera app's racist then Sep 03 10:00:23 okay, okay, black-o-meter Sep 03 10:00:45 MohammadAG, just like autobuilder! Sep 03 10:00:58 lol Sep 03 10:01:15 I wonder if it's IR being reflected Sep 03 10:01:59 MohammadAG: I believe so Sep 03 10:02:26 That's why I presumed it was a proximity, in fact I' 90% sure it is. Sep 03 10:02:41 proximity sensors are either open or closed Sep 03 10:02:42 But what you say makes far more sense. Sep 03 10:04:24 bbiab Sep 03 10:08:28 hrw: thanks for quick answer. I will look a bit later. Sep 03 10:13:41 rmrfchik: ah... thats you then.. Sep 03 10:15:34 never look at signtature? ;) Sep 03 10:23:02 Weee Sep 03 10:23:10 rmrfchik: itt has signatures? Sep 03 10:23:17 #fail Sep 03 10:23:40 hrw: mail has Sep 03 10:24:13 rmrfchik: I tend to end reading when get to "-- " Sep 03 10:24:29 rmrfchik: especially when big icon is under Sep 03 11:03:12 hey guys, I'm getting "Operation failed" when I try to look at the repos in HAM. I have extras-devel activated if it matters Sep 03 11:07:52 ~ping Sep 03 11:07:52 ~pong Sep 03 11:08:09 damn, everyone gone for lunch or something? Sep 03 11:08:27 no, they're just ignoring you Sep 03 11:08:38 have you tried turning it off and on again? Sep 03 11:08:41 apt-worker's borked? Sep 03 11:09:37 /usr/libexec/apt-worker check-for-updates Sep 03 11:10:48 wow Sep 03 11:10:58 that was the weirdest n900 bug ever Sep 03 11:11:44 it just died :D Sep 03 11:13:16 lol Sep 03 11:13:29 * MohammadAG slaps crashanddie_ Sep 03 11:13:30 hmm, I commented out the devel and testing line from the HAM repo list and it's fixed Sep 03 11:15:20 * crashanddie_ kicks MohammadAG Sep 03 11:15:36 you wouldn't dare Sep 03 11:16:04 MohammadAG: somehow it shows that its battery is dry though it was fully charged before the death Sep 03 11:16:05 * kerio kicks MohammadAG Sep 03 11:16:21 kerio, you can't :P Sep 03 11:16:43 wazd, bme was probably sleeping on duty Sep 03 11:17:17 MohammadAG: one day i'll become a freenode staff member and i'll show you! :'( Sep 03 11:17:34 yeah, over my dead body Sep 03 11:17:49 be careful what you wish for Sep 03 11:17:56 because you might just get it Sep 03 11:18:46 are yo listening the "when i grow up, i wanna have boobies" songs by those sluts or something jacekowski? Sep 03 11:18:59 hehe you said boobies Sep 03 11:19:04 hehe Sep 03 11:19:12 Sep 03 11:19:34 anyway, back to work Sep 03 11:19:38 later all Sep 03 11:19:47 wazd: I have had the battery become loose. Sep 03 11:20:04 I needed to tighten the contacts a little so it would not disconnet whn jarred Sep 03 11:20:08 my fake battery does that Sep 03 11:20:14 real battery works perfectly Sep 03 11:20:21 SpeedEvil: how did you tighten the contacts? Sep 03 11:20:35 SpeedEvil: well, not in 5 seconds I guess :D Sep 03 11:21:06 SpeedEvil: I had an incomming call, unbluged the device, then it suddenly died Sep 03 11:21:26 unplugged* Sep 03 11:22:13 wazd: With a teeny screwdriver, pressing each side of each contact in from the side. Sep 03 11:22:27 Did it just immediately por off? Sep 03 11:22:30 power Sep 03 11:22:39 and was it full of charge when next booted Sep 03 11:23:09 SpeedEvil: oh, in the battery Sep 03 11:23:10 i see Sep 03 11:23:17 * kerio still has to call nokia care for the usb issue Sep 03 11:31:46 SpeedEvil: yeah it turned off immediatel and then it became dry Sep 03 11:34:13 dry? Sep 03 11:35:09 wazd: So, what does Vlad say? What do you say? =) Sep 03 11:35:26 what are you now planning to bomb Sep 03 11:35:27 ? Sep 03 11:35:27 :P Sep 03 11:35:43 http://shop.mattel.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4032107 Sep 03 11:37:47 They got the title wrong Duckboot, it was meant to read camgirl. Sep 03 11:41:53 hi guys Sep 03 11:44:57 I have installed the Bluetooth DUN package, but it doesn't work :( Sep 03 11:48:45 Venemo: works for me Sep 03 11:50:12 morning folks Sep 03 11:50:43 vo Sep 03 11:50:43  Sep 03 11:50:45 er Sep 03 11:50:47 Venemo: works here Sep 03 11:50:51 try rebooting Sep 03 11:52:31 RST38h: I totally agree :) Sep 03 11:52:40 kerio: I guess some of the settings must be wrong Sep 03 11:52:46 RST38h: Don't know bout Vlad, he's pretty busy these days Sep 03 11:53:04 RST38h: I'll start to design stuff asap Sep 03 11:53:08 RST38h: anyway :) Sep 03 11:53:25 kerio: rebooting the computer or the N900? Sep 03 11:53:59 dunno, both Sep 03 11:54:05 RST38h: Right now I'm trying to shrink OMW widget as much as possible without sacrificing readability :) Sep 03 11:56:11 wazd 5*1 pixels, use color of pixel to indicate sky color. done Sep 03 12:02:26 wazd: cool =) Sep 03 12:03:39 lcuk: what about 1 pixel cycling days? :D Sep 03 12:04:02 sometimes my n900 has this "slide this slider to unlock" -thing when i pull it out of my pocket, where does that come from? proximity sensor? Sep 03 12:05:03 top button Sep 03 12:05:10 the one to switch on and of Sep 03 12:05:16 X-Fade: ping Sep 03 12:05:25 that you also use to lock Sep 03 12:05:39 i lock using the lock-switch Sep 03 12:05:40 (the sliding button is awkward to use for me) Sep 03 12:05:48 kke, double press the power key Sep 03 12:06:05 wazd, great idea, but thats only needed on small displays :P Sep 03 12:06:13 hmm Sep 03 12:06:18 what's the lockscreen app? Sep 03 12:06:22 err, binary Sep 03 12:06:29 the old PR1.0 one had a transition Sep 03 12:06:33 when you unlock the device Sep 03 12:13:15 MohammadAG: really? what sort of transition? Sep 03 12:14:13 it fades down Sep 03 12:14:20 instead of disappearing all of a sudden Sep 03 12:14:26 trying to find a video Sep 03 12:15:22 MohammadAG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq9tIZwJV6w ? Sep 03 12:16:34 MohammadAG: indeed there is a small transition, but I can see it only on the "swipe to unlock" screen Sep 03 12:21:05 nah, I have to go now Sep 03 12:21:07 goodbye Sep 03 12:23:43 does anybody already used the mame emulator on maemo? Sep 03 12:23:52 where do i have to put the roms into? Sep 03 12:33:20 wireless headphones ^_^ Sep 03 12:33:54 defragger: by default it looks at ~/MyDocs/roms and /media/mmc1/roms/ Sep 03 12:34:14 defragger: i.e. roms/ folder either on the internal flash or micro sd card Sep 03 12:36:10 pigeon: thanks, my failure was a not working rom :) Sep 03 12:37:06 MohammadAG, salam Sep 03 12:37:19 yo :) Sep 03 12:38:33 MohammadAG, ok.. what did you want me to say now ? Sep 03 12:39:01 that you got the PS Jailbreak working? :) Sep 03 12:39:12 oh yeah, right Sep 03 12:39:21 the news : PSJailbreak working from the N900!!!! Sep 03 12:39:32 KaKaRoTo, o_0 Sep 03 12:39:33 will release it soon... (now.. or when I wake up...) Sep 03 12:39:57 KaKaRoTo, awesome Sep 03 12:40:00 :) Sep 03 12:40:01 wow! nice work KaKaRoTo! Sep 03 12:40:07 now only if I had my ps3 with me... Sep 03 12:40:10 thanks Sep 03 12:40:28 KaKaRoTo, won't your blog explode with all the hits? Sep 03 12:40:37 lol Sep 03 12:40:38 I hope not... Sep 03 12:40:43 hmm Sep 03 12:40:50 KaKaRoTo, whats it hosted on? Sep 03 12:40:51 we'll see Sep 03 12:40:57 some one should digg it ;) Sep 03 12:40:58 xnt14, my home linux server Sep 03 12:41:13 KaKaRoTo, if it does, I can mirror it for you if you want... :) Sep 03 12:43:28 OMG WTF BBQ PS3 JAILBROKEN Sep 03 12:43:51 guys.. find me a name for the project! Sep 03 12:44:00 for now it's psjailbreak, but that's not good enough.. Sep 03 12:44:04 KaKaRoTo, hmm Sep 03 12:44:05 I was thinking of ps3brew... Sep 03 12:44:11 anyone have a better idea ? (I suck at names) Sep 03 12:44:28 does it have to be related to the ps3? Sep 03 12:44:33 the name I mean Sep 03 12:44:33 Playstation Software Easily! Or Psseasy. Sep 03 12:44:48 SpeedEvil, ok, no more names from you :p Sep 03 12:44:54 xnt14, preferebly, yes... Sep 03 12:44:54 lol Sep 03 12:45:13 hmm Sep 03 12:45:28 FYI, it's a linux kernel driver, so it's not maemo specific Sep 03 12:45:36 it could be used for android or palm or whatever... Sep 03 12:45:37 sssh Sep 03 12:45:40 don't tell them that Sep 03 12:45:43 lol Sep 03 12:45:45 maem0wned Sep 03 12:45:52 Are there other uses? Sep 03 12:45:59 ps1337 Sep 03 12:46:02 I mean - is it simply for the crack? Sep 03 12:46:11 Or could it be meaningfully used in orther scenarios Sep 03 12:46:12 it's not a crack Sep 03 12:46:12 PSFree? Sep 03 12:46:15 it's arbitrary code running Sep 03 12:46:37 xnt14, PSFree is good... but is it better than PS3Brew ? Sep 03 12:46:50 KaKaRoTo: DO YOU HATE JEWS SON Sep 03 12:47:22 kerio, yes, why ? :p Sep 03 12:47:26 :< Sep 03 12:48:24 KaKaRoTo, hmm, no how about PSBrewFree? Sep 03 12:49:16 hard to pronounce Sep 03 12:49:20 bah, forget it Sep 03 12:49:26 Pssst then Sep 03 12:49:27 PS3WNED Sep 03 12:49:41 SonyBiteMyAss Sep 03 12:49:48 lol Sep 03 12:49:56 ps3ix :) Sep 03 12:49:56 sory Sep 03 12:49:58 S0wned Sep 03 12:50:02 SBAS! Sep 03 12:50:06 I like that Sep 03 12:50:07 Wiinot. Sep 03 12:50:11 PSFreedom Sep 03 12:50:19 sounds good IMO Sep 03 12:50:38 PS3eedom Sep 03 12:50:38 ps3-jailbreak Sep 03 12:50:46 MNZ, o_0 ? Sep 03 12:50:49 de-lame-ps3 Sep 03 12:50:56 What about: Pubes Sep 03 12:51:05 xnt14, it rhymes with PSFreedom! Sep 03 12:51:07 YouFeltSmartWhenYouRemovedOtherOSEhSony Sep 03 12:51:13 MNZ, ah :P Sep 03 12:51:17 kerio, lol :) Sep 03 12:51:43 xnt14, I think i'll go with ps3free Sep 03 12:52:12 PS3some Sep 03 12:52:13 KaKaRoTo, well PSFreedom sounds better... Sep 03 12:54:00 WOHOOO Sep 03 12:54:06 this stuff works :D Sep 03 12:54:13 Thanks KaKaRoTo, epic work :) Sep 03 12:54:46 MohammadAG, you have it? Sep 03 12:55:09 dammit, my wireless headphones suck Sep 03 12:55:10 :8 Sep 03 12:55:20 the sound is clipped on the high frequencies Sep 03 12:55:26 is this an artefact of the A2SP? Sep 03 12:55:42 xnt14, wait for KaKaRoTo's release ;) Sep 03 12:55:43 Duckboot: Re - Pubes - I like the way you think - do you have a newsletter or magazine I may subscribe to? Sep 03 12:55:49 MohammadAG, k :( Sep 03 12:56:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn_q63x1tbU Sep 03 12:56:22 ok, maybe (probably) I suck at making videos... Sep 03 12:56:58 SpeedEvil: ;-P Sep 03 12:57:46 SpeedEvil: http://www.allyoucanread.com/top-10-teen-magazines/ Sep 03 12:57:59 yay, it's just OSX being an asshole Sep 03 12:58:45 KaKaRoTo, hmm, problem is that you can't see what actually happened... Sep 03 12:58:52 xnt14, yeah, I know Sep 03 12:58:55 kerio: It's a relic from when Steve Jobs programmed his own personality in the OS Sep 03 12:59:01 ok, I'll skip the video until tomorrow, then i'll make a better one Sep 03 12:59:35 KaKaRoTo, whats your timezone btw? Sep 03 13:01:56 xnt14, it's 9AM here Sep 03 13:02:07 and by tomorrow, I mean today.. but when I wake up.. Sep 03 13:02:09 and after work... Sep 03 13:02:28 ah... k Sep 03 13:03:07 KaKaRoTo, San Fran? Sep 03 13:03:25 oh, nevermind Sep 03 13:03:36 montreal Sep 03 13:03:38 canada Sep 03 13:03:49 ah, ok, I'm in NY btw Sep 03 13:04:03 oh, I fail, I'm looking at other clocks, but not my own :P Sep 03 13:04:45 If we don't get enough nomination for the community council election, we have to postpone the election by a month. Sep 03 13:05:03 So get out there and nominate. Sep 03 13:10:49 hi KaKaRoTo! Sep 03 13:11:15 well if there arent enough nominees, the elction can be skipped Sep 03 13:11:24 Is there a list of eligable people? Sep 03 13:11:56 so do you want to release it today (i'm on gmt+2) Sep 03 13:12:00 ? Sep 03 13:12:46 I tried the other hack (ps3pwn) for n900 omap, but it doesn't work (for the usb otg problem) Sep 03 13:13:32 not the best question to ask here, but is there any svn application (cli or gui, both works fine for me) Sep 03 13:13:42 svn for n900? Sep 03 13:14:03 ? - apt-cache search svn gives nothing Sep 03 13:14:03 -enter Sep 03 13:14:16 svn client yes Sep 03 13:14:17 yes, but it's in extras-devel Sep 03 13:14:20 subversion is the package name. Sep 03 13:14:25 ah, it's fine Sep 03 13:14:25 apt-get install subversion Sep 03 13:14:29 h4waii, ah Sep 03 13:14:31 ty Sep 03 13:17:26 * drizztbsd wants official ipv6 support Sep 03 13:17:49 how official? Sep 03 13:18:00 microb, email application, etc Sep 03 13:18:20 I know I can use titan kernel, but only with firefox (and maybe opera) Sep 03 13:18:47 huh? Sep 03 13:18:52 you can use ipv6 with microb too Sep 03 13:18:56 it's in about:config Sep 03 13:19:03 oh, ok Sep 03 13:22:14 who was the nutjob going on about encryption on the N900? Sep 03 13:22:51 why does my volume increment if I mash the keyboard on the N900? Sep 03 13:24:12 crashanddie, tobis87 Sep 03 13:24:24 MNZ: thanks Sep 03 13:25:30 released ! Sep 03 13:25:31 http://kakaroto.homelinux.net/2010/09/psfreedom-jailbreak-ps3-with-n900-worked-finished-and-released/ Sep 03 13:25:34 KaKaRoTo, :D Sep 03 13:25:47 KaKaRoTo, :) you used my name Sep 03 13:25:48 :) Sep 03 13:25:49 thanks Sep 03 13:25:51 xnt14: At a guess - the keyboard matrix is not n-key-rollover friendly, and the volume keys are part of rthe keyboard matrix Sep 03 13:26:12 xnt14: this can also be seen by shift-blue-k Sep 03 13:26:15 xnt14, yep Sep 03 13:26:21 SpeedEvil, k Sep 03 13:26:41 KaKaRoTo, now only if I wasn't at work, or if I had brought my PS3 with me... Sep 03 13:27:38 xnt14, :p Sep 03 13:27:53 now if only I wasn't dead, I could use what I spent the week working on Sep 03 13:28:04 KaKaRoTo, I would walk home, but its a long way.. Sep 03 13:28:13 xnt14, if it's any consolation, I won't be able to use it either, until tomorrow :p Sep 03 13:29:05 KaKaRoTo, k, thanks :P Sep 03 13:29:34 sorry if this is not appropriate for this channel, but is there a way to find out how long a previously made phone call was? Sep 03 13:29:42 SpeedEvil, dneary posted one on the list, I believe. Sep 03 13:29:42 * KaKaRoTo gets flooded in two channels now.. Sep 03 13:29:55 ShadowJK, indeed, however I don't believe that's a good plan. Sep 03 13:29:58 the call history only seems to tell me when the call happened and who called whom Sep 03 13:30:21 GAN900, well let's just vote for one candidate then Sep 03 13:30:23 or something Sep 03 13:30:37 last person standing turns off the lights and servers Sep 03 13:30:37 :P Sep 03 13:30:46 hmm, KaKaRoTo, isn't that dragon ball... Sep 03 13:31:03 pigeon, yep Sep 03 13:31:11 excellent :) Sep 03 13:31:20 Stskeeps, not nearly as funny as it sounds. Sep 03 13:31:44 KaKaRoTo: nice work. Thanks. Sep 03 13:31:52 thx Sep 03 13:31:58 KaKaRoTo: what does it enable, exactly? Sep 03 13:32:04 * KaKaRoTo needs to stop thanking those who thank me.. and go to sleep Sep 03 13:32:17 crashanddie, enable installation of homebrew applications on the PS3 Sep 03 13:32:20 ability to run unsigned code i think Sep 03 13:32:42 so should I expect to see cheating bastards crowd the servers these days? Sep 03 13:32:43 it emulates a modchip that uses an exploit on the usb hub driver of the ps3 Sep 03 13:32:51 MNZ: yes? Sep 03 13:33:02 so it's the same/reverse engineered stuff as what those aussies released? Sep 03 13:33:03 crashanddie, nah, they're all in #ps3dev on EFNet... Sep 03 13:33:24 crashanddie, MohammadAG asked me to announce it here.. he was talking to me about possible kernel patches... Sep 03 13:33:24 Stskeeps, turn the lights off by all means, but we need to keep the server running Sep 03 13:33:34 but in the end, I did it without the need to patch/flash the kernel Sep 03 13:33:59 crashanddie, no cheating bastards yet Sep 03 13:34:10 any banned bastards yet? Sep 03 13:34:16 I didn't sign in Sep 03 13:34:26 I have 2 PS3s, so I can afford to have one banned... But it would be crap though Sep 03 13:34:43 anyone up for setting up an alternate PSN? :P Sep 03 13:34:44 tobis87, nothing, crashanddie was asking about the person doing all that encryption stuff Sep 03 13:35:13 tobis87: if you want to achieve pretty decent security, there's a manufacturer who released microSD cards with a smartcard component Sep 03 13:35:22 hmmm... empathy problems. Switching to pidgin Sep 03 13:35:36 tobis87: which means that they have a hardware crypto-processor, and are physically secure to resist tampering Sep 03 13:36:07 tobis87: I have one, and I've compiled the driver for it, been playing with it a bit for the past year or two (I had access to an R&D version) Sep 03 13:36:30 tobis87: apparently they're freely available these days. You can load your PKI keys on them, and use that to encrypt the filesystem Sep 03 13:36:51 well, my point is to get everything working which the n900 could do, don't want to buy something, if it is already there, but not used Sep 03 13:36:51 gn Sep 03 13:37:18 because they also have about 1 or 2GB of storage, you could technically make the N900 boot from the SD card, and then decrypt using the on-board keys Sep 03 13:37:39 (using a PIN code to unlock the carD) Sep 03 13:38:12 it works using a streaming file on the SD card, you write commands to it, and they are interpreted by the card Sep 03 13:38:15 the driver is very new, it is only two weeks old, so I should calm down a little bit, i could have expected it to not work yet Sep 03 13:40:11 we should make a list of components the n900 has build in, which are not used: eg. the crypto stuff, the audio chip which could be used for hardware mixing and so on. Sep 03 13:40:39 tobis87, that information is in the wiki hardware articles Sep 03 13:41:00 it does even support des acceleration, but no driver yet Sep 03 13:41:35 apt-get install john-the-ripper Sep 03 13:42:19 KaKaRoTo: do you enable also the backup launcher? Sep 03 13:42:57 and can you release the sourcecode? so I can port it to webos and/or android :) Sep 03 13:43:26 yeah, i know it could be broken fast, but why does the kernel has buildin des? there has to be some use, and this could get accelerated... Sep 03 13:44:20 The kernel has builtin encryption modules of all sorts. Sep 03 13:44:20 tobis87: OTP Sep 03 13:44:31 Some of which are cryptographically weak at the moment. Sep 03 13:44:33 tobis87: most OTP algorithms are loosely based on DES or 3DES Sep 03 13:44:34 KaKaRoTo: or to titan kernel Sep 03 13:44:42 MNZ: where http://wiki.maemo.org/Category:N900_Hardware ? Sep 03 13:44:59 tobis87: There isn't unfortunately a central list of missing features. Sep 03 13:45:09 tobis87: I noted it on eack page as I wrote it. Sep 03 13:45:12 each Sep 03 13:46:09 Generally. Sep 03 13:46:20 Though I see the CPU page is actually missing the note of encryption Sep 03 13:46:41 i don't mean features, i mean hardware, which lies there idle and unused Sep 03 13:47:05 tobis87: 3DES keys still require a few hours to be broken, and OTPs are only valid for mere seconds, and the key is immediately regenerated Sep 03 13:47:06 yes. Sep 03 13:47:14 that's what I mean - hardware features that are unused Sep 03 13:47:34 http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Audio_Codec Sep 03 13:47:38 Unutilised functions Sep 03 13:47:56 crashanddie: question is how usefull that data will be to attacker later Sep 03 13:48:14 KaKaRoTo: what kernel is it built for? Mine disagrees about version of symbol struct_module Sep 03 13:48:15 jacekowski: how so? Sep 03 13:48:43 i mean in general any encryption will just delay when attacker gets plaintext Sep 03 13:49:01 and whole point is to delay it beyond when it's still usable for attacker Sep 03 13:49:22 jacekowski: which is exactly what I explained '[-_-] Sep 03 13:49:40 but you have to assume that attacker may get lucky Sep 03 13:49:48 and get correct key with first try Sep 03 13:49:55 no, you don't. Sep 03 13:50:35 Do you also assume for insurance purposes that your house may be hit by a meteorite? Sep 03 13:50:42 Sure - it's happened to one person. Sep 03 13:50:53 so uh. Sep 03 13:50:53 Does that mean it's worthwhile insuring against - probably not. Sep 03 13:51:02 im getting a lot of 'audio codec not supported' when i try and play movies. Sep 03 13:51:07 is there a codec pack avaliable. Sep 03 13:51:12 jacekowski: OTP is generated, you have 1m32s to use it. After that, it's no use to anyone. you only have a tiny bit of information, and from that you need to deduce the 3DES private key, the secret, the salt, the decay timer, the time counter and the event counter... All that from maximum 10 random digits... Sep 03 13:51:28 my house was hit be a meteorite you insensitive clod Sep 03 13:51:29 * luke-jr has meteorite insurance… Sep 03 13:51:32 i don't want to use 3des or des, i have just noted that there is support for it (des_ick in kernel-2.6.28/arch/arm/mach-omap2/clock24xx.h) and I'm not that mad at crypto, otp is unusable in practice... Sep 03 13:51:49 wtf Sep 03 13:51:49 OTP is not unusable. Sep 03 13:52:00 OTP is unusable in practice? Where the hell do you live mate? Sep 03 13:52:01 OTP is quite adequate for many apps. Sep 03 13:52:06 for small messages Sep 03 13:52:16 I agree that OTP is fairly useless Sep 03 13:52:17 Especially given that carrying around a dozen gigabyte pad is now no longer an issue. Sep 03 13:52:21 rot13 is quite adequate for many apps also Sep 03 13:52:31 :P Sep 03 13:52:35 Especially as you can pop it out, and chew it up. Sep 03 13:52:49 but, how do want to encrypt a harddrive? the key would have to have the same size Sep 03 13:52:58 SpeedEvil: I think they don't want to understand the use, quite frankly Sep 03 13:53:09 tobis87: lolwut? Sep 03 13:53:15 OTP is the one provable secure crypto system. Sep 03 13:53:17 crashanddie: what's the use, then? Sep 03 13:53:27 Any others in principle can be broken by advances in technology. Sep 03 13:53:34 luke-jr: bank access, vpn access, basically, any kind of authentication. Sep 03 13:53:49 With OTP - once you've thrown away the pad - there is no theoretical way the conversation can be deduced. Sep 03 13:54:04 O.o Sep 03 13:54:10 maybe I'm thinking of something else Sep 03 13:54:11 tobis87, different uses of encryption, sure a otp will be useless for hard drive long term storage Sep 03 13:54:22 but the guys have just given many examples where it is practical Sep 03 13:54:27 lcuk: no, it won't Sep 03 13:54:37 what's the non-standard "encryption" in Pidgin? Sep 03 13:54:39 Each bit or character from the plaintext is encrypted by a modular addition with a bit or character from a secret random key (or pad) of the same length as the plaintext, resulting in a ciphertext. Sep 03 13:54:54 lcuk: OTP would be perfectly adapted for hard drive encryption Sep 03 13:55:05 lcuk: heck, the MET Police, and the US government use it exactly for that Sep 03 13:55:10 I should know, I fucking implemented the systems Sep 03 13:55:23 and when I say US government, I mean US DoD. Sep 03 13:56:04 crashanddie, implemented what? Sep 03 13:56:11 the bootloader includes an OTP validation system, which secures the private key (this can be an HSM of any sort, big bulky hardware or smartcard) used to encrypt the hard drive Sep 03 13:56:13 I thought the key aspect of a OTP was that it was used one time Sep 03 13:56:15 crashanddie: Basically RAID, but with a OTP disk? Sep 03 13:56:19 storing it on a postit note to use later Sep 03 13:56:34 isnt really otp Sep 03 13:56:48 you authenticate to the system, which unlocks the private key, deduces a session key and you're good to go Sep 03 13:57:24 well, OTP is just the key, which is all OTP has always been Sep 03 13:57:28 right, so the otp guards the real "fixed" keys rather than being used for the encryption on the drive itself Sep 03 13:57:47 whether you unlock a website, your phone or a hard drive makes no difference whatsoever Sep 03 13:58:14 lcuk: hard drive encryption *never* uses an private key provided to the user Sep 03 13:58:24 lcuk: you always have something that unlocks the "real fixed keys" Sep 03 13:58:32 whether that's a password, a private key, whatever Sep 03 13:59:01 the fixed keys never leave the hard drive, frankly Sep 03 13:59:09 and if they do, you're bound to be pwned Sep 03 13:59:22 this works with hardware or software hard drive encryption Sep 03 13:59:46 reasonable Sep 03 13:59:59 tobis87, did you get any input in your original quesiton by the way Sep 03 14:00:02 question Sep 03 14:00:35 heck, some seagate drives even re-encrypt the drive on the fly when you've "decrypted it" by inputting your auth, so that a cold boot attack would be useless (or virtually useless) Sep 03 14:05:30 lcuk: which question? about the dma burst modes? these are no different modes, but the size of the burst differs, nah i think i have to wait until the mantainer of the driver has time, i have however posted it on maemo-devel Sep 03 14:06:15 lcuk: this hardware flaw could however be releated: https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/29760/ Sep 03 14:07:15 [08:56:20] the fixed keys never leave the hard drive, frankly Sep 03 14:07:25 crashanddie: not even to the kernel, for software encryption? Sep 03 14:07:33 tobis87, that would be: http://maemo.org/community/maemo-developers/n900_aes_and_sha1-md5_hw_acceleration_drivers/?org_openpsa_qbpager_net_nemein_discussion_posts_page=1#edd23ba0b75211df835eef346cfc21582158 Sep 03 14:07:42 "N900 AES and SHA1/MD5 hw acceleration drivers" Sep 03 14:07:44 I gather Sep 03 14:07:46 yes Sep 03 14:08:37 it just helps to keep them together :) a big chunk of encryption talk followed by some of the work you are doing may help others interested and capable looking :) Sep 03 14:08:59 luke-jr: well, if you have a hardware-encrypted hard drive, no. In software, obviously it goes through the CPU, no idea where it goes through in terms of kernel though. Sep 03 14:09:05 GAN900, You called? Sep 03 14:10:35 luke-jr: I was more thinking in terms of leaving the box. If your box is pwned to the point where you have access to the CPU/kernel registers, then any kind of encryption will be cracked in due time Sep 03 14:11:58 dneary, was telling SpeedEvil you posted a eligible candidate list somewhere. Sep 03 14:12:06 Yup Sep 03 14:12:26 http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_Q3_2010/Eligible_candidates Sep 03 14:13:25 I'm not eligible⁈⁈ :< Sep 03 14:15:06 GAN900: are you running again? Sep 03 14:17:53 crashanddie, god no. Sep 03 14:17:59 lcuk: that's pretty cool, that quickflickr thing Sep 03 14:18:09 GAN900: nominate abill_uk Sep 03 14:18:10 lcuk: seriously good looking and seamless! Sep 03 14:18:26 Stskeeps++ Sep 03 14:18:42 is randy running again? Sep 03 14:18:46 Nominate me Sep 03 14:18:49 crashanddie, yeah it looks like an awesome app Sep 03 14:18:49 jk xD Sep 03 14:19:15 crashanddie, dunno if he's decided. Sep 03 14:19:24 MohammadAG, nominate yourself. Sep 03 14:19:41 I thought you had to be 18+ to run for candidate? Sep 03 14:19:42 why should I Sep 03 14:19:43 crashanddie, god no. Sep 03 14:19:52 GAN900: to do your duty Sep 03 14:19:59 woops Sep 03 14:20:02 MohammadAG: to do your duty Sep 03 14:20:14 I heard the army's better Sep 03 14:20:35 well Sep 03 14:20:43 you don't get nokia goodies in the army Sep 03 14:20:48 you get taliban goodies Sep 03 14:20:54 depends which army :P Sep 03 14:20:57 Nokia goodies like what? Sep 03 14:20:57 well Sep 03 14:21:05 PR1.3? they can keep it Sep 03 14:21:13 * lcuk slaps you Sep 03 14:21:21 MohammadAG: funding for Dublin :D Sep 03 14:21:29 crashanddie, they can keep that too :P Sep 03 14:21:32 bollocks Sep 03 14:21:35 A devices and travel (sometimes) Sep 03 14:21:38 if you got it, you'd so be in it Sep 03 14:21:57 GAN900: hey, you didn't travel because of the idiocy of the US burocracy Sep 03 14:22:31 I have school, I might skip 3 days and come, but not so sure after seeing what I have to study this year Sep 03 14:22:53 it's balls that the con is 3 full weekdays Sep 03 14:23:09 crashanddie, well, I'm more noting who was and wasn't invited to LFCSSF Sep 03 14:23:10 n900 still alive! Sep 03 14:23:20 crashanddie, how about yourself Sep 03 14:23:30 crashanddie, we want to appeal to corporate people, though! Sep 03 14:23:34 the con should've been from Fri till Sun tbh Sep 03 14:23:39 imo* Sep 03 14:23:41 I charged the battery using a lab power source, current limited to 200mA and volt limited to 4.2v Sep 03 14:24:01 Even though the overwhelming majority of the registered attendees are unaffiliated. Sep 03 14:24:11 MohammadAG, it should've Sep 03 14:24:16 lcuk: the community may be "Maemo Community", but it doesn't mean they're masochistic enough to elect me Sep 03 14:24:24 But as with most things MeeGo, it's not FOR us. Sep 03 14:24:39 How about we organise our own con? Sep 03 14:24:58 The MeeGo folks will, of course, retort with "well, you're welcome to arrange community days on the weekend." Sep 03 14:25:01 :) Sep 03 14:25:10 "People even seem to be doing that as we speak!" Sep 03 14:25:14 crashanddie, stand. Sep 03 14:25:19 Except they wont pay for it. Sep 03 14:25:46 I'm serious, let's find an old crappy hotel with a big hall, on the brink of being torn down, and let's host our own event Sep 03 14:26:08 crashanddie, people are organizing community days. Sep 03 14:26:13 fuck community days Sep 03 14:26:23 I'm not going to Dublin for MeeGo Sep 03 14:26:27 I don't have the free funds to pay for the hotel and travel, though. Sep 03 14:26:29 I'm talking about a Maemo event Sep 03 14:26:38 Ah, well then. Sep 03 14:26:51 Sounds like a very appropriate location plan. Sep 03 14:27:04 that's why I'm talking about an old mushy hotel Sep 03 14:27:23 we're geeks, so except for the handful who have skin problems and dozens with asthma, we'll be fine -- we don't wash Sep 03 14:28:02 so we don't even need hot water! Sep 03 14:28:08 heck, WE DON'T NEED WATER! Sep 03 14:28:13 Beer will do. Sep 03 14:28:26 Let's get sponsorship from Heineken or Stella Artois Sep 03 14:28:56 lcuk: see, even when I have ideas I believe in I can't remain serious... Sep 03 14:29:04 I'm not made for politics. Sep 03 14:29:34 GAN900: how much is a return trip in cattle class? Sep 03 14:29:47 GAN900: about $1500? Maybe less if we find good dates Sep 03 14:30:15 Let's ask Skype and Adobe to help out Sep 03 14:30:21 Small donations, $1 or $2k Sep 03 14:30:22 Hi, is there a define to detect the maemo platform when building a C/C++ program ? Sep 03 14:30:32 crashanddie, liking the idea, is Israel a good place for the event? :P Sep 03 14:31:37 kurosu: test #ifdef MAEMO5 Sep 03 14:31:51 kurosu: or #ifdef MAEMO Sep 03 14:32:00 crashanddie: perfect Sep 03 14:32:09 kurosu: not sure if those work, test them before Sep 03 14:32:28 (also lol, a wrong clicking sent me to the #ifdef channel (which was defined but void) Sep 03 14:32:44 crashanddie: this is for reference, i'm not the one building code for maemo Sep 03 14:33:11 kurosu: there may also be #ifdef Q_WS_MAEMO5 (if coding with Qt) Sep 03 14:33:17 :) seb, before you continue your train of thought, go and nominate yourself. Sep 03 14:33:24 no Sep 03 14:33:40 I'm backing crashanddie here. Sep 03 14:33:59 council is the best way to get out of touch with the community Sep 03 14:34:03 Too much nonsense around here these days to run for council. Sep 03 14:34:15 You'd really have to hate yourself. Sep 03 14:34:20 you're stuck between hate, incomprehension and nokia burocracy Sep 03 14:34:51 the council was a brilliant idea Sep 03 14:34:53 and it still is Sep 03 14:34:55 And Intel's now, too. Sep 03 14:35:03 Which is even worse, somehow. Sep 03 14:35:13 crashanddie: anyway, I'd go otherwise with detection through the host var in a configure script Sep 03 14:35:37 the problem is that as soon as the council announces something to the community where they have to reveal they've discussed with Nokia prior to opening up to the community, you get the whole "nokia whores" and "nokiapologisers" songs in chorus Sep 03 14:37:31 the challenge is that maemo.org was, deep down a mix of a application developer community and power users. these seeked to be more involved in the system and decisions being made, slow progress being made, some not. system developers appeared (Mer), trying to organise to make a difference. then nokia and intel preempts the next 2 years of us waiting for things to open up and start from 100% open. system developers can move on easily ... Sep 03 14:37:37 ... to meego as there's a OS to be developed. app developers come when there's a platform to run against. power users come when the platform and apps are there. problem and negativity stems from these phase changes where things got worked on to get ready. Sep 03 14:38:29 while maemo.org council should have helped to prepare for the rush that will happen with the new influx of users and developers. but nothing was done. Sep 03 14:38:38 while I'm at it, is there a nicer API for vibrating than DBUS one, shown in http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/mce-dev/dbus-names_8h.html#8b9c9753aa3772ad5934ef0434daedce ? Sep 03 14:38:39 just like we weren't prepared for the in rush of new users on tmo. Sep 03 14:38:53 but then you have council members like Attila, digging in and working together between developers on the community and folks at other sides to actually improve things Sep 03 14:39:02 to fix real problems Sep 03 14:39:09 like the qt compatability in extras Sep 03 14:39:15 yes, but do you need a council for someone to organise things? Sep 03 14:39:40 no, but it obviously helped to allow communication Sep 03 14:40:30 in practice it has been the well-prepared proposals by organising individuals that has gotten somewhere. Sep 03 14:40:52 worst part is some people's extreme tunnel vision. Sep 03 14:40:54 Stskeeps, prepare how? Sep 03 14:41:07 Stskeeps, maemo.org is being slowly mothballed. Sep 03 14:41:09 the council didn't help anything with the qt-dependancy screw-up Sep 03 14:41:29 And we don't really have anybody's ear with MeeGo. Sep 03 14:41:37 attila did it because he wanted to do it, not because he was a council member Sep 03 14:42:04 crashanddie, of course Sep 03 14:42:26 GAN900: who was the council's main contact? Quim? Sep 03 14:42:52 GAN900: who know that he's moved to the US is a no-go anymore I guess? Because he doesn't have direct contact with the local people in HEL? Sep 03 14:43:00 s/know/now/ Sep 03 14:43:01 crashanddie meant: GAN900: who now that he's moved to the US is a no-go anymore I guess? Because he doesn't have direct contact with the local people in HEL? Sep 03 14:43:14 Personally, we tried to buckle down and get working on stuff, but met with a brick wall Sep 03 14:44:02 Then we said "OK, how can we get maemo.org ready for this changeover now that we know Nokia is dropping the N900." Sep 03 14:44:09 GAN900: well, let's start with texrat's meego greeeters. reggie with the forums and structure. dneary with knowledge of wikis and community structure and challenges. the mer guys going into various parts of system development in meego. x-fade with the experience in extras handling. heck, if jeremiah had stayed on, packaging help. andre with his knowledge of bugzilla, testers from test squad getting involved in MeeGo QA. Sep 03 14:44:24 And so we held a brainstorm, got a bunch of tasks together Sep 03 14:44:30 texrats maemo greeters * Sep 03 14:44:34 and--Tada!--no more budget! Sep 03 14:44:46 jeremiah? Sep 03 14:44:48 packaging help? Sep 03 14:44:52 Stskeeps, jeremiah's position got cut. Sep 03 14:45:00 I thought jeremiah was a debmaster, not rpmmaster Sep 03 14:45:05 crashanddie: he does both, but hey :P Sep 03 14:45:13 crashanddie, Our hierarchical superior is Tero Kojo Sep 03 14:45:23 crashanddie, He's my project manager Sep 03 14:45:38 sorry, I don't see the link, I must've missed something Sep 03 14:45:40 crashanddie, So the council should be letting him know if I'm not doing what they need from me Sep 03 14:45:44 Stskeeps, and my response was addressing your complaint about the council not preparing, not about the individuals. Sep 03 14:46:03 dneary: we're not criticising anything the paid contributors have done Sep 03 14:46:08 GAN900, Actually, Jeremiah decided to leave, and the budget got reallocated Sep 03 14:46:10 dneary: I don't think anyone was talking about that Sep 03 14:46:13 (slightly different) Sep 03 14:46:21 dneary, true enough Sep 03 14:46:28 (brevity of typing) Sep 03 14:46:30 crashanddie, I'm just pointing out that Tero could be a main contact Sep 03 14:46:34 GAN900: there was ample room for possibilities, even still is. could have easily taken the lead on many things. Sep 03 14:46:35 ah, ok Sep 03 14:46:39 but anyway Sep 03 14:46:48 it's weekend and i have conference papers to read. Sep 03 14:46:52 well, sessions Sep 03 14:46:53 bbl. Sep 03 14:47:03 So, council didn't lead at all, right. Sep 03 14:47:15 Actually, at this point I'd do an OpenSolaris governing board on it, and ask that someone officially replace Quim as the Maemo community liaison in Nokia Sep 03 14:47:22 I don't think the council could've ever led anything, and it wasn't the point Sep 03 14:47:37 good afternoon everyone Sep 03 14:47:56 the council, IMO was there to talk to Nokia based on what the community was thinking Sep 03 14:48:01 GAN900, And there's still some budget Sep 03 14:48:10 I'm 1/4 time Maemo for the next 4 months Sep 03 14:48:13 and try as they might, they never got any answers Sep 03 14:48:29 GAN900, And there's Niels, and Nemein still has some infrastructure budget Sep 03 14:48:51 dneary, if by some, you mean enough to keep the lights (mostly) on. :P Sep 03 14:49:12 it's like talking to an Alzheimer granny. "How are you today" "Oooh, my little boys, they were so nice". At some point, the council had no choice but become the PR spokesperson for Nokia. Sep 03 14:49:13 GAN900, I need to set myself an agenda for the next few months... Sep 03 14:49:17 That's how I saw things change Sep 03 14:49:40 And the council should definitely bring back a monthly staff meeting Sep 03 14:49:47 we're missing those now Sep 03 14:49:55 But don't expect any Nokia people to be there Sep 03 14:50:05 * lcuk still wants to make a maemo app management doofer for desktop -> n900 but it requires a whole lot of coordination Sep 03 14:50:07 (although they may be anyway) Sep 03 14:50:20 lcuk: maemo app management doofer? Sep 03 14:50:24 (as raised at the last meeting) Sep 03 14:50:31 what's a doofer? Sep 03 14:50:49 if someome wants the kakaroto's ps3 hack I mirrored it here => http://omploader.org/vNWZkeg Sep 03 14:50:51 I can't remember what a doofer is... Sep 03 14:50:59 crashanddie, desktop/website side application selection and then pushing to install those selections onto the device Sep 03 14:51:12 lcuk: interesting Sep 03 14:51:19 so you deal with the apps on your device from your big computer Sep 03 14:51:25 Anyway - got a couple of things on the TODO list to get done today Sep 03 14:51:27 without faffing with ham Sep 03 14:51:31 L8ter? Sep 03 14:51:43 I'm done for the week Sep 03 14:51:49 I just checked the last thing on my list Sep 03 14:51:56 * crashanddie fires up starcraft 2 Sep 03 14:52:00 Anyone from the council care to call a monthly Maemo team meeting for next Tuesday, preferably before people have left for the weekend, please? Sep 03 14:52:01 * nominate for council Sep 03 14:52:17 dneary: people have left for the weekend Sep 03 14:52:21 at least, everyone in my company has Sep 03 14:52:22 hmm Sep 03 14:52:47 interesting, apache seems to be on repos for os2008, but not @ n900 Sep 03 14:52:51 crashanddie, Ah - you're in Belgium aren't you? Sep 03 14:52:58 nope Sep 03 14:53:00 Perpignan, France. Sep 03 14:53:05 have libs changed a lot or would it be possible to install @n900? Sep 03 14:53:11 FIQ|n900, if it builds, resubmit to fremantle queue Sep 03 14:53:24 k Sep 03 14:53:51 FIQ|n900, many diablo compatible apps should build without issue technically Sep 03 14:54:03 ok Sep 03 14:54:04 certainly backend ones at least Sep 03 14:54:18 dneary: dude, how could you forget I lived in France :( You actually got me a discussion with a Canonical guy... :( Sep 03 14:57:45 crashanddie, Ah, right Sep 03 14:57:51 No wonder then Sep 03 14:57:57 The French are lazy buggers Sep 03 14:58:04 The 35 hour week indeed Sep 03 14:58:17 (they do a 35 hour week *and* get RTTs) Sep 03 14:58:33 Quim doesn't work on Maemo at all anymore Sep 03 14:58:48 So, yeah, having a new contact would be a good idea Sep 03 14:58:59 that's not true, he deals with the licensing queue Sep 03 14:59:05 But what does Nokia care about Maemo these days. Sep 03 14:59:10 and is still seen around maemo.og Sep 03 14:59:18 Stskeeps, only in the vaguest sort of way. Sep 03 14:59:42 well, the problem with quim's work is that you only see the top of the iceberg Sep 03 14:59:43 :P Sep 03 15:00:28 Yes, because I wouldn't know anything about facilitation. Sep 03 15:00:41 Stskeeps: the problem with Quim's work is that there is no visible result for us to see Sep 03 15:00:41 SpeedEvil: wait, what? Sep 03 15:00:43 and that failures are more visible than progress that you think might just come naturally. Sep 03 15:00:46 "advance in technology" can break RSA? Sep 03 15:00:47 Stskeeps: but I don't blame him Sep 03 15:00:52 P!=NP, remember Sep 03 15:01:10 Venemo: it's in a lot of maemo things and decisions you don't see cos it just comes from Nokia. Sep 03 15:01:13 kerio: yes Sep 03 15:01:25 Stskeeps: yes, I know Sep 03 15:01:37 Stskeeps: that I why I said it is not visible as his work Sep 03 15:02:26 Stskeeps, point being, his focus is (justifiably) not on Maemo. Sep 03 15:02:32 Given that Nokia's basically left us hanging Sep 03 15:02:43 having a new contact person seems worthwhile. Sep 03 15:03:40 Can any body tell me how can I change the title of Xephyr window. Sep 03 15:03:57 GAN900: I don't think we will have one Sep 03 15:04:19 Venemo, I don't think so, either. Sep 03 15:04:52 GAN900, Stskeeps: and about the licensing changes, all of them were dismissed with ridiculous excuses Sep 03 15:05:19 Venemo, that's how Nokia operates. Sep 03 15:05:24 Venemo: yes what? Sep 03 15:05:25 It still boggles my mind that Peter claims they're listening. Sep 03 15:05:57 But perhaps they are and they're just choosing to do the opposite Sep 03 15:06:52 kerio: a quantum computer could break rsa easily, "they" even search for people already http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/34597 Sep 03 15:06:58 kerio: (4:58:06 PM) kerio: "advance in technology" can break RSA? ----> Yes, it can. Sep 03 15:07:20 I know Nokia are listening and acting. Sep 03 15:07:27 quantum computers *have a chance* of breaking RSA Sep 03 15:07:29 :P Sep 03 15:07:40 lcuk: what are you referring to? Sep 03 15:07:46 and GAN900 if you feel they aren't then perhaps you should try to find a way to do so. Sep 03 15:08:20 kerio: Investigators should presuppose the existence of a fully functional quantum computer and consider what algorithmic tasks are particularly well suited to such a machine. Sep 03 15:08:58 presuppose the existence of a fully functional quantum computer <- "They" already have one :-D Sep 03 15:08:59 GAN900, contact some of the principle Nokia maemo contributors Sep 03 15:09:06 lcuk: are you saying this out of belief, or you know something? Sep 03 15:09:07 tobis87: sure Sep 03 15:09:45 kerio: although there is an encryption algorythm that quantum comupers can't break (yet) Sep 03 15:11:06 yes, this algorithm from seventies: http://science.slashdot.org/story/10/08/18/1958226/1978-Cryptosystem-Resists-Quantum-Attack Sep 03 15:12:56 lcuk, I've been in communication with Peter. Sep 03 15:13:17 lcuk, as with Quim, much of what I do isn't immediately visible. Sep 03 15:16:09 GAN900, when Nokia created Maemo many of its hackers worked outside their jobs to help build and improve it. We have a strong wide reaching vibrant set of applications which show that the principles original brought out 5 years ago work. this was done alongside existing activities and was the "hacker spirit" within Nokia Sep 03 15:17:34 just because we have Meego now does not mean the same spirit does not exist, hell if you think pressure from Meego is bad, imagine how hard it must have been at first against Symbian Sep 03 15:17:52 GAN900: by Peter, you mean Peter Schneider? Sep 03 15:18:20 GAN900, how many people were involved in the original HackerEdition made for the 770? Sep 03 15:19:39 * lcuk is eternally amused at the new use cases Maemo has every day Sep 03 15:20:20 as someone releases an app that sat dormant for a while or some research project emerges Sep 03 15:21:13 lcuk, except here we are, 5 years later, we don't have a viable product, existing customers and contributors have been jetisoned, once again, Maemo contributors are the redhaired stepchildren in MeeGo and Nokia still doesn't "get" it. Sep 03 15:21:24 lcuk, things exist in shades of gray. Sep 03 15:21:30 Venemo, yes. Sep 03 15:21:54 lcuk, we don't know, as it was an over-the-wall binary image drop done by contractors. Sep 03 15:24:14 GAN900: and what does he say? Sep 03 15:25:34 GAN900, hasn't nokia devivered on the product? a hacker friendly mobile platform? "Maemo - code in your hands" wasn't it? We have in excess of 25million app downloads and over 5000 community applications so far - the downloads increased over 20% this month alone and will continue to increase as the catalog improves Sep 03 15:26:33 its so hacker friendly even nokia are using it to build on it Sep 03 15:29:16 lcuk: agreed Sep 03 15:29:29 lcuk: what do you mean by "nokia are using to build on it"? Sep 03 15:30:18 well Venemo meego is so open to gain possibility of community contributors they need a device to work from Sep 03 15:30:39 lcuk: yes Sep 03 15:30:59 Venemo, unlike a desktop linux the community cannot hack really on hardware in their home Sep 03 15:31:17 (which leads to the meego netbook farse, but thats another topic) Sep 03 15:31:21 lcuk: the only minor problem is that the "device to work from" doesn't "officially" support the very os they are working on Sep 03 15:32:26 lcuk, all excellent talking points Sep 03 15:32:44 Which ignore many of the negative aspects of Nokia and the platform. Sep 03 15:33:09 lcuk, look around, most of the core contributors have burnt out and moved on. Sep 03 15:34:05 GAN900, lcuk: see qwerty12 for an example Sep 03 15:34:05 MohammadAG, ping Sep 03 15:34:20 GAN900, it's the same for a huge number of open source projects... people simply move on to other stuff Sep 03 15:34:24 and new people roll in Sep 03 15:35:17 GAN900, I stopped playing Portal Sep 03 15:35:33 but that doesnt mean the game stopped being enjoyed by others Sep 03 15:35:45 "so long and thanks for all the fish", but in reverse? Sep 03 15:35:46 mnz is right Sep 03 15:36:16 lcuk: yes, but when a project is so badly mismanaged that dedicated users like querty12 blow up and attack the people trying to support it, something is seriously f*cked Sep 03 15:36:56 microlith, to be fair, people go postal in the best of jobs Sep 03 15:37:14 yes, but maemo is extraordinarily badly managed Sep 03 15:37:47 as is Nokia's customer relations, which are virtually non-existent Sep 03 15:38:00 then how do we deal with that actively Sep 03 15:38:14 well we can't, so long as Nokia has a stick up their ass Sep 03 15:39:11 is there way to set up bluetooth network between linux box and n900? (PAN, if I remember correctly) Sep 03 15:39:51 rmrfchik, there should be, but IDK personally Sep 03 15:40:18 http://wiki.maemo.org/Bluetooth_PAN Sep 03 15:40:21 but the wiki does Sep 03 15:40:33 oh. should I check it first. shame Sep 03 15:40:34 thanks Sep 03 15:42:05 does Nokia have any competition in "hacker-friendly" handset? Sep 03 15:42:38 liori: no, I don't think so Sep 03 15:42:48 long ago sharp zaurus FTW Sep 03 15:42:52 liori: but many people mistake Android for that Sep 03 15:42:55 so no wonders it goes this way Sep 03 15:43:11 I owned 860SL. very nice Sep 03 15:44:37 MNZ, indeed it is. Sep 03 15:45:00 isn't Canola due for an n900 release soon by the way? Google Summer of code is over Sep 03 15:45:12 and it was one of the projects Sep 03 15:45:18 MNZ, however when it's the overwhelming majority of your core that's either walked out in discussed or is burning out as we speak, well, I don't consider that optimal. Sep 03 15:45:33 Especially when it all comes down to things easily in Nokia's power to fix. Sep 03 15:46:17 I frankly have no background on what has happened, it has been little over 2 weeks for me with the community Sep 03 15:47:20 GAN900: 100% agreed Sep 03 15:49:04 GAN900, the "overwhelming majority of your core" are paid people assigned to tasks. dneary just came in and said there are key people available with maemo related budgets - what specifically do you feel needs doing Sep 03 15:49:43 lcuk: yeah, it is Sep 03 15:49:50 :D etrunko awesome Sep 03 15:50:04 the big problem is packaging all deps Sep 03 15:50:06 as usua Sep 03 15:50:08 *usual Sep 03 15:50:10 >/ Sep 03 15:50:15 thats the problem everywhere etrunko Sep 03 15:50:21 lcuk: really? Sep 03 15:50:24 heh Sep 03 15:50:29 Venemo, read scrollback Sep 03 15:50:41 he wanted to assign a meeting next week for it Sep 03 15:50:50 lcuk: this is good news, isn't it? Sep 03 15:51:11 lcuk, I'm talking about community people. Sep 03 15:52:07 lcuk, paid people all seem to be on a steady diet of Kool-Aid. Sep 03 15:52:13 slightly unrelated, but do we have a general plan or roadmap for maemo? or is it just left to go where ever the wind takes it? Sep 03 15:52:35 MNZ, yeah, there's a lot of unfun history getting us here today. Sep 03 15:52:53 lcuk: does that mean there's another forum/opportunity to discuss issues like opening stuff, delivering much asked for functionality augments, etc? Sep 03 15:53:00 lcuk, I'd like to see the ideas from the brainstorm implemented. Sep 03 15:53:31 GAN900, then please champion them and stop whining - go and dig through and find simple effective things that *are* achievable Sep 03 15:53:44 lcuk, but Neimen is in maintenance mode, X-Fade is keeping things afloat and that's about the extent of it. Sep 03 15:53:50 MNZ: Maemo will go where the wind goes, yes Sep 03 15:54:12 mnz, if GAN900 has his way maemo is already dead. Sep 03 15:54:32 Not exactly a lot of hands to prep maemo.org for doing Nokia's job Sep 03 15:54:40 but that fate has been hanging on the BSD* for many years Sep 03 15:54:48 lcuk: so, you're going to have a meeting about this, right? Sep 03 15:55:09 well i wasnt going to organise it, dneary is better at that sort of thing ;) Sep 03 15:55:33 lcuk, You called? Sep 03 15:55:41 Ask not for whom the bell tolls Sep 03 15:55:45 hey dneary you mentioned earlier about a meeting Sep 03 15:55:52 Yeah Sep 03 15:56:06 lcuk: to your question, "what you feel needs doing", just read TMO Sep 03 15:56:12 I always thought maemo was just on life-support until we got to meego, but then I looked at all the activity and I thought maybe the community want to take this further? Sep 03 15:56:16 perhaps reading the scrollback since you left might be better Sep 03 15:56:17 I'd really like the community council to call a maemo staff + community meeting for September to make sure everyone has some TODO items Sep 03 15:56:52 lcuk: sorry, I have no scrollback. Although I've read everything since I'm here Sep 03 15:57:03 mnz, it might be, but that doesn't mean we cannot do things ourselves and within the available boundaries Sep 03 15:57:19 dneary, that sounds reasonable Sep 03 15:57:34 lcuk: anyways, I agree with Stskeeps on the longer term. We're better off having a workable MeeGo port than patching Maemo 5 Sep 03 15:57:56 i dont object in the slightest Venemo Sep 03 15:57:56 Venemo: there's chanlog, see /topic Sep 03 15:58:17 DocScrutinizer: ah, thanks. okay Sep 03 15:58:37 meego is indeed exceptional and much wider in scope since it will expand fully and blossom outside our N series devices Sep 03 15:58:54 But now I'm slightly confused. Do the community generally want maemo to live on or just want maemo *applications* to live on, so a compatability layer on meego would suffice? Sep 03 15:59:01 but hopefully the core of Maemo can be in amongst that Sep 03 15:59:15 MNZ: the community is fragmented about the question Sep 03 15:59:18 lcuk, tried, nobody reports, nobody communications, and there's no budget. Sep 03 15:59:33 GAN900, you just got told there is budget Sep 03 15:59:38 lcuk, and you're not going to drum up support for a platform Nokia killed off. Sep 03 15:59:41 MNZ, Who is the community? Sep 03 15:59:42 up there ^ Sep 03 15:59:46 lcuk, depends on your definition. Sep 03 15:59:48 lcuk: anyways, what is the point of working on Maemo, if we will have MeeGo soon enough? Sep 03 15:59:51 MNZ: Have you ever done any vector maths? Sep 03 15:59:58 GAN900, hence me saying simple practical things Sep 03 16:00:27 Venemo, people still use their Nokia 770 Sep 03 16:00:36 dneary, by community I meant the user/hackerbase. I thought that was obvious. And vector math, only a bit in high school Sep 03 16:00:57 MNZ, So - think of the community as a bunch of vectors. Sep 03 16:01:12 lcuk: yes. Sep 03 16:01:15 Venemo: "soon enough" - hmm Sep 03 16:01:22 dneary, ah ok, got where you are going with this.... Sep 03 16:01:23 lcuk: I was referring to the "MeeGo for the N900" project Sep 03 16:01:27 Each individual has a certain amount of influence (vector length) and a general direction he'd like to see the project take (direction) Sep 03 16:01:36 DocScrutinizer: some people claim october Sep 03 16:01:47 Now - all the vectors point in different directions. Sep 03 16:02:06 that's a fake though - it's called meego but it's harmattan aiui Sep 03 16:02:13 dneary: indeed Sep 03 16:02:18 Some converge - there's a bunch of vectors pointing generally in the direction "Fuck Nokia - let them open up Maemo 5 & we'll do it ourselves" Sep 03 16:02:46 And there's a bunch of vectors pointing towards "Maemo is the mpast, MeeGo is more open than Maemo ever was, we should get behind that" Sep 03 16:02:58 Now - what happens when you add all the vectors? Sep 03 16:03:09 A resultant Sep 03 16:03:15 and that's what I was asking about Sep 03 16:03:23 DocScrutinizer: well, MeeGo base OS and middleware is already stable, right? And Harmattan will have the same MeeGo Touch UI... so, with the latter completing in October, we should have a fully operational MeeGo, right? Sep 03 16:03:25 you get maemo apps running on non nokia hardware Sep 03 16:03:44 DocScrutinizer: also, Stskeeps says that N900 driver support is already there in MeeGo Sep 03 16:03:55 well said lcuk Sep 03 16:04:05 MNZ, In general, when you add a bunch of vectors that point in different directions, the resultant doesn't have a very big amplitude Sep 03 16:04:11 dneary, i above all others know the problem of backwards compatability, and I have sat here for long enough to know how much it will matter to people. Sep 03 16:04:23 * n900evil is going for a random walk. Sep 03 16:04:40 dneary: in this case I'd say we have so many dimemsions the vectors will not cancel out Sep 03 16:04:54 liori, My point exactly Sep 03 16:04:57 Venemo: stskeeps just bragged with first ever semi-working call on meego. So "MeeGo base OS and middleware is already stable"?? Nooooooway Sep 03 16:05:57 pupnik_, does sdl work on meego? Sep 03 16:06:19 hurr dunurr Sep 03 16:06:23 DocScrutinizer: well, 1.0 was stable and it was out in march, and they said that they will have 1.1 stable in october, whatever Sep 03 16:06:41 i can't bring myself to sacrifice my laptop for it Sep 03 16:10:03 MNZ, To put it another way, asking "what does the community want?" at this point is meaningless Sep 03 16:10:08 (sorry!) Sep 03 16:10:14 :( Sep 03 16:10:40 MNZ: dneary is right about this Sep 03 16:10:43 mnz, another way: bring up clear strong arguments and get people behind you and make it happen Sep 03 16:10:52 In general, I think the community wants Nokia to stop jerking them around. Sep 03 16:11:01 GAN900++ Sep 03 16:11:02 GAN900, I disagree Sep 03 16:11:09 lcuk: well said Sep 03 16:11:14 GAN900: indeed. Sep 03 16:11:21 GAN900, I think some of the community is happy with the direction Nokia is taking, and are happy to follow them Sep 03 16:11:33 * lcuk is happy with meego Sep 03 16:11:50 it will solve a lot of the noise people made over the years Sep 03 16:12:44 dneary, hey, about a hundred people voted for me, so I can speak for them at least. :P Sep 03 16:13:07 ~gan900++ Sep 03 16:13:10 GAN900, W00t 100/16000 (depending on how you count) Sep 03 16:14:01 dneary, I think most people would agree that dropping support for N900 owners wasn't an ideal decision. Sep 03 16:14:24 lcuk: agreed Sep 03 16:14:25 I have another question though, the vectors you mentioned dneary, I would think they come in cluster pointing in a general direction each. I would argue that people who simply think maemo is on life support (or other similar direction) can be safely removed from the equation Sep 03 16:14:36 dneary: how ill you count the Nokia-cheering sheep? and how many do you claim there are? Sep 03 16:14:41 And demoing Flash 10, saying q1 then never another peep probably wasn't ideal, either. Sep 03 16:14:46 MNZ, Perhaps Sep 03 16:14:59 GAN900: agreed Sep 03 16:14:59 DocScrutinizerWell, vectors have a length Sep 03 16:15:05 And those vectors are short Sep 03 16:15:21 the rest of the 'community', no matter what their directions on where to take maemo, want _improvement_, and I would take that as a very vague, very general direction which can be agreed upon by a majority that actually matter Sep 03 16:15:55 GAN900, Nokia are still going to continue support for N900 owners for a couple of years, but not spend any money supporting app developers for N900 Sep 03 16:16:01 so this brings us back to: Where's the roadmap! Sep 03 16:17:08 Nor dropping N900 support then slashing the budget and eliminating the position best placed to ensure the success of their Harmattan Hacker Edition answer probably wasn't good either. Sep 03 16:17:50 dneary, define "support" Sep 03 16:18:08 GAN900, Provide occasional OS updates for Sep 03 16:18:15 To fix bugs Sep 03 16:18:17 hah Sep 03 16:18:19 "We'll take your calls and help you buy an N9" Sep 03 16:18:25 better to focus resources for meego&intel collaboration Sep 03 16:18:28 dneary, like the N8x0s? :) Sep 03 16:18:34 GAN900, No Sep 03 16:18:38 N900 is a phone Sep 03 16:18:50 So more like the N82 or something like that Sep 03 16:19:02 dneary: (no support for app devels) which is utterly insane, given the loudmouthedly claimed pushbutton app compatibility from maemo to meego Sep 03 16:19:06 Because Nokia still "supported" Diablo through this year. Sep 03 16:19:24 dneary, but nothing vaguely resembling their competitors' definitions. Sep 03 16:19:44 DocScrutinizer, talk about clueless realit-detatchment. Sep 03 16:19:50 doesn't the iPhone 2G still get updates? Sep 03 16:20:02 GAN900: anyways, Nokia's support is still superior to Samsung's Sep 03 16:20:21 take as an example, the i8910 Sep 03 16:20:24 Venemo, Samsung doesn't ship a Linux distro. Sep 03 16:20:42 GAN900: yes. what I meant, they support their products much less Sep 03 16:21:51 MohammadAG51, did through 3.x. Sep 03 16:22:07 and the 3G (N8x0 equivalent) is still current Sep 03 16:22:15 The N900 didn't even get a year. Sep 03 16:22:56 GAN900: the i8910 didn't get half a year Sep 03 16:23:04 GAN900: so Nokia is not the worst Sep 03 16:23:11 GAN900: but, I agree with your point Sep 03 16:23:34 Venemo: that's really apples and err, submarines Sep 03 16:24:02 heh, do you think AD-N770 was an active Nokia 770 user? Sep 03 16:24:24 And Apple's software isn't still a big buggy pile of uselessness. Sep 03 16:24:36 Venemo, competitors are Apple and Google. Sep 03 16:24:53 Both of which seem to be doing an excellent job of providing reasonable support Sep 03 16:25:07 GAN900: hm. well, maybe Sep 03 16:25:39 well Sep 03 16:25:52 Nokia has Symbian and maemo Sep 03 16:25:58 GAN900: but why just these two? Sep 03 16:26:24 MohammadAG51, Sep 03 16:27:23 Venemo, only people shipping similar products. Sep 03 16:30:27 GAN900: so, Samsung's not? Sep 03 16:30:53 well, for me it feels like Nokia did (A, B) for maemo, now doing (a) for meego and telling "dear devels, why wait for C on maemo? We got shining meego in a short while and there will be C+" (some fine day) Sep 03 16:30:53 GAN900, for the longest time you were against the phone aspect of maemo, rallying behind it being a tablet and unique. the people that dreamed up an open source eco system would be proud now. and meego is a new revisioning of that to beat the newcomers, but it does not negate from just how awesome and far maemo has gotten. Sep 03 16:31:17 lcuk, in 5 years? Sep 03 16:31:20 Not very Sep 03 16:31:44 Nokia went from pioneering the market to allowing its competitors to dominate and redefine it. Sep 03 16:33:08 well, only htc and apple Sep 03 16:34:08 nobody else has anything that would compete with nokia phones Sep 03 16:35:28 anyways, despite all the pessimism going on here, I still think that Maemo 5 is one of the best OSes on the market Sep 03 16:35:47 hurrah \o/ Sep 03 16:35:58 Venemo++ Sep 03 16:36:12 it has its weaknesses, but nothing is perfect Sep 03 16:36:36 that sounds like an excellent point to make a break for the weekend Sep 03 16:37:25 Venemo, I agree. Sep 03 16:37:42 Venemo, which is why it frustrates me so when Nokia sabatoges it constantly. Sep 03 16:38:01 and Maemo takes a backseat to Moblin in MeeGo. Sep 03 16:38:42 moblin? that's only for netbooks Sep 03 16:38:57 GAN900: still, I don't think MeeGo would be any worse than Maemo Sep 03 16:39:03 timoph, much like MeeGo right now. Sep 03 16:39:21 Venemo, Intel's worse than Nokia, amazingly. Sep 03 16:39:23 I have it running on my N900 :) Sep 03 16:39:36 GAN900: worse? why? Sep 03 16:40:00 Venemo, because they deal with OEMs Sep 03 16:40:12 At least Nokia has some experience dealing with people. Sep 03 16:40:59 GAN900: well, at least they are not alone now Sep 03 16:41:18 GAN900: some people have objections against rpm packaging Sep 03 16:41:36 GAN900: but apart from that, it won't be that much different Sep 03 16:41:43 GAN900: if I'm wrong, please educate me Sep 03 16:41:56 you can also see it the other way around, maemo is the least worst of the android, maemo, apple ios... e.g. just to get root access on the other two Sep 03 16:42:31 and it runs the code natively and it is not programmed in c Sep 03 16:42:37 in c# Sep 03 16:43:05 tobis87, less worse from a hacker perspective..... an app programmer or an end user: I'm not entirely sure Sep 03 16:43:18 ah, sorry was it object-c (apple ios) Sep 03 16:44:23 android apps are java :< Sep 03 16:44:37 aren't they? Sep 03 16:44:37 GAN900: does this look like moblin? -> http://koti.kapsi.fi/~mjolk/pic/mhello.png Sep 03 16:44:42 objc is still compiled at least Sep 03 16:44:50 doesn't look like it to me Sep 03 16:47:11 sandboxes are for kids :P Sep 03 16:48:08 kerio: Android language http://www.gubatron.com/blog/2010/05/23/how-many-lines-of-code-does-it-take-to-create-the-android-os/ Sep 03 16:48:21 that's the os Sep 03 16:48:38 android is bloatware from Google Sep 03 16:48:57 its sole purpose was to kill Windows Mobile Sep 03 16:49:06 and it sends your brain to google Sep 03 16:49:08 android is the iOS for poor people Sep 03 16:49:35 the only difference between iOS and Android is the kernel and the corporation behind it Sep 03 16:49:38 jacekowski: yes! Sep 03 16:49:47 kerio: and the level of (supposed) openness Sep 03 16:49:55 timoph, organizationally speaking. Sep 03 16:49:59 sry for the join spam, I failed closing xchat properly when I changed some stuff Sep 03 16:50:00 nah, rooting vs jailbreaking is the same Sep 03 16:50:13 kerio: yes. Sep 03 16:50:36 kerio: but you can download (some of) android's souce, but not ios's. Sep 03 16:50:43 kerio: with your other points I agree Sep 03 16:50:45 you can download darwin Sep 03 16:50:51 it's the kernel Sep 03 16:51:02 LO Sep 03 16:51:04 er Sep 03 16:51:08 wrong window Sep 03 16:51:51 i still don't understand, what they had smoked to come up with the idea of running the apps in Java, ok some apps already did run in Java but mostly these which you could buy. The others did run natively in Symbian, right? Sep 03 16:52:05 tobis87: what? Sep 03 16:54:00 I mean, did the base system run native in symbian? I thought it did, not as bytecode. Sep 03 16:56:01 tobis87: if that is what you're curious about, Symbian applications are native, yes Sep 03 16:56:43 tobis87: Symbian C++ compiles to native code Sep 03 17:02:15 * mgedmin played with his sister's Android phone and now wants a port of Gem Miner to Maemo Sep 03 17:04:06 mgedmin, is it open source :D ? Sep 03 17:04:39 probably not, given that it has a free(ware?) version and a commercial version Sep 03 17:09:15 mgedmin: Rocks & Diamonds is in the repos. Sep 03 17:10:16 different game, though Sep 03 17:11:15 Ok, but why did Google choose to run the whole in java? Only, because it is easier to deploy programs on multiple devices? Arm elf should be flexible enough, the programs only need to get recompiled with a diffrent toolchain. And it should be faster, are there any benchmarks availible native vs bytecode in Dalvik. Sep 03 17:11:44 Easy deployment, easier sandboxing and control Sep 03 17:11:52 Lot of devs know it Sep 03 17:12:13 minimizing hardware deps could also be part of it, I suppose Sep 03 17:12:21 there are many variations of ARM Sep 03 17:12:24 tobis87: managed-code apps are not necessarily slower Sep 03 17:17:44 well dalvik is slower Sep 03 17:17:55 but that's implementation fail as well Sep 03 17:18:28 and there is difference between what .net is doing and what java/dalvik is doing Sep 03 17:18:42 .net code is not a bytecode Sep 03 17:18:49 it's intermediate bytecode Sep 03 17:19:06 that gets compiled/JITed whan started Sep 03 17:19:14 with knowledge of local platform Sep 03 17:19:33 it's sort of like half compiled code Sep 03 17:19:34 in my dictionary there's no "bytecode" that isn't intermediate Sep 03 17:20:01 were you drawing a distinction between AOT/JIT and direct bytecode interpretation? Sep 03 17:20:54 kind of Sep 03 17:21:04 but there are different kind of JITs Sep 03 17:21:19 jacekowski: in .NET, source code is compiled to IL. Then IL gets JITted to machine code. Sep 03 17:21:29 yes Sep 03 17:21:43 but JIT compiler has knowledge about local system Sep 03 17:21:58 so it can apply optimisations that would be impossible to apply with normal application Sep 03 17:22:19 while java was designed to run on VM Sep 03 17:22:27 and JIT capabilities were added later Sep 03 17:22:28 jacekowski: indeed Sep 03 17:22:47 jacekowski: the .NET CLR optimizes code for the platform it runs on Sep 03 17:23:18 and java jit just slower Sep 03 17:23:43 jacekowski: yes Sep 03 17:23:50 jacekowski: and java doesn't jit all the time Sep 03 17:24:16 I think the main problem if we try to get Maemo usable for normal users, is that we have to go in the direction in which Android goes. It is good for companies to not have to deal with overclockers and people who mess up their partition table... And most people are also happy, because they don't have to reflash their device. Sep 03 17:24:17 I think you can only have an os which is either user friendly or hacker friendly. Ubuntu for example becomes everytime more userfriendly, but for me unfriendly (compiz, right side buttons, gimp, etc...) Sep 03 17:24:25 jacekowski: java JITs some code, and interprets some others Sep 03 17:25:04 tobis87: well, I dunno about Ubuntu, but I don't think the two things contradict each other Sep 03 17:25:12 well, every app should have it's own small container Sep 03 17:25:22 so it can't affect anything else Sep 03 17:25:38 and well it does't contradict each other Sep 03 17:25:50 yes, you can disable all this stuff, but why not choose a less uber-user-friendly distro first Sep 03 17:26:12 for lulz Sep 03 17:26:13 I disagree that user-friendliness must imply hacker-hostility Sep 03 17:26:24 mgedmin: i disagree with you disagreeing Sep 03 17:26:28 mgedmin: agreed. Sep 03 17:26:40 all these automated stuff Sep 03 17:26:43 ooh, you pulling double negatives on me, jacekowski? Sep 03 17:26:46 makes non automated stuff complicated Sep 03 17:27:14 anyone else watching SGU? Sep 03 17:27:17 mgedmin: Weirdly enough, Rocks&Diamonds is many games at once, they used just about everything there Sep 03 17:27:19 ACTION  Sep 03 17:27:23 Venemo: Has it started anew? Sep 03 17:27:41 RST38h, I looked at the screenshots; all those different games are really different variations of the same game Sep 03 17:27:48 RST38h: season 2 will come in the end of september Sep 03 17:27:50 RST38h: not yet Sep 03 17:27:55 ah Sep 03 17:27:58 28th of september Sep 03 17:28:02 * RST38h goes back to Ashes2Ashes Sep 03 17:28:04 jacekowski: yes. Sep 03 17:28:21 i'm watching eureka, warehouse 13 and hmm that's all at the moment Sep 03 17:28:36 mgedmin: Well, if you call Boulderdash, Supaflex, and Soukoban the same game... Sep 03 17:28:38 * Venemo is watching SGU 1x20 atm Sep 03 17:28:53 V is terminated isn't it? Sep 03 17:29:01 ah, Sokoban is a bit different Sep 03 17:29:10 aren't Boulderdash and Supaplex the same? Sep 03 17:29:14 next season of doctor who will be next year Sep 03 17:29:23 collect items while avoiding falling boulders Sep 03 17:29:33 torchwood is terminated iirc Sep 03 17:29:37 what do you think about The Guild? Sep 03 17:29:50 the thing I liked about Gem Miner was that it had less puzzle solving and more exploration Sep 03 17:29:51 Hi Sep 03 17:29:54 legend of the seeker is terminated as well Sep 03 17:30:47 johnsq: hey Sep 03 17:32:08 mgedmin: Ah Sep 03 17:32:19 it almost felt roguelike Sep 03 17:32:25 except as a side-scroller Sep 03 17:32:27 and without monsters Sep 03 17:33:26 mgedmin: Ah I see Sep 03 17:33:59 mgedmin: There is a few JRPGs that are close in function Sep 03 17:34:05 mgedmin: They will run on VGBA Sep 03 17:36:20 eeek: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/03/fun_kookaburra/ Sep 03 17:37:33 PyQt or PyGTK? Sep 03 17:38:07 PyQt Sep 03 17:38:08 PyTK! Sep 03 17:38:28 But, better, just Qt, so that I do not have to install Python Sep 03 17:39:00 speaking of PyQt, PyQt or PySide? Sep 03 17:39:08 http://www.clonedinchina.com/2010/07/shanzhai-brings-bar-phones-that-have-removable-keyboard.html cool idea: removable keyboard for phone Sep 03 17:39:23 * timoph prefers ncurses :) Sep 03 17:40:05 pupnik: Old story, see TI calculators Sep 03 17:40:19 Also Sony remote controls and a few PC gaming keyboards Sep 03 17:40:45 didn't the Romans have a saying, something like "new is just well-forgotten old" Sep 03 17:40:58 they probably had removable keyboards for their abacuses too Sep 03 17:42:37 Romans probably had mechanical computation engines Sep 03 17:42:52 If that mechanism lifted from the sea floor any indication Sep 03 17:43:50 transformer phone :) Sep 03 18:00:05 RST38h: ok, new to me Sep 03 18:05:37 Can I remove all pics of my contacts at once? I'm asking this because I want to "Retreive" using Hermes to update the pics. Sep 03 18:05:47 yeah you can Sep 03 18:06:15 how? Sep 03 18:06:50 remove all files in /home/user/osso-abook/avatars/ Sep 03 18:07:15 that's what I would do Sep 03 18:07:45 wait it's /home/user/.ossoabook/avatars/ Sep 03 18:08:07 .osso-abook :) Sep 03 18:08:11 typo again :/ Sep 03 18:08:49 do you use the same method to update the pics? Sep 03 18:09:32 nope I never updated them, but that would by my first guess Sep 03 18:10:32 should I backup first, or no harm will happen anyway? Sep 03 18:10:44 I would backup Sep 03 18:12:25 They're not gone Sep 03 18:12:29 anything I should restart? Sep 03 18:12:38 I don't want to reboot the phone Sep 03 18:12:38 always backup Sep 03 18:12:44 I backed up Sep 03 18:13:19 but I was saying that the pics are still there Sep 03 18:13:35 yeah it's sqlite Sep 03 18:13:43 you have to do some fancy queries to databse Sep 03 18:14:09 I have no idea at all how to do that Sep 03 18:14:21 sqlite3 command in xterm Sep 03 18:15:01 sqlite /home/user/.osssosomething/file/with/contacts.db Sep 03 18:15:06 sqlite3 /home/user/.osssosomething/file/with/contacts.db Sep 03 18:15:28 i don't remember structure of that file and i'm shitting on toilet at the moment Sep 03 18:15:30 so i can't help you Sep 03 18:15:38 well, not now at least Sep 03 18:15:43 so from what I understand, the pics are stored in the db, and then "backed up" every now and then in .osso-abook/avatars/ ? Sep 03 18:16:05 i think it's just file name that's in db Sep 03 18:16:10 sqlite3 /home/user/.osso-abook/db/addressbook.db Sep 03 18:18:58 oh well, I'm not familiar with sql queries Sep 03 18:21:01 lcuk: ping Sep 03 18:22:16 am in #liqbase Sep 03 18:24:20 w00t Sep 03 18:24:24 there's a lcuk fan club now⁇ Sep 03 18:25:24 always been :P Sep 03 18:26:14 what PyQt apps are there? Sep 03 18:26:18 other than healthcheck Sep 03 18:27:17 anyone got syncevolution really working with google? Sep 03 18:28:25 Anyone got google voice working over SIP directly? Sep 03 18:28:42 All the howtos I found seem to imply you need a third party service. Sep 03 18:29:45 SpeedEvil: impossible Sep 03 18:29:50 * Arkenoi got SIP working with my local cellular network, so i am free from roaming charges when abroad with wifi or decent 3g nearby Sep 03 18:29:53 it only works with Gizmo Sep 03 18:29:57 k Sep 03 18:30:13 And gizmo is as I understand it not taking new registrations Sep 03 18:30:25 not since Google bought them Sep 03 18:30:39 it looks like my t-mobile is blocking sip Sep 03 18:30:41 luckily, I had a spare since before Sep 03 18:30:44 Would be nice. Sep 03 18:30:47 SIP would be handy Sep 03 18:30:50 jacekowski: even with TLS? Sep 03 18:30:53 I have 'free' data. Sep 03 18:30:58 That is - free up to 1G/mo Sep 03 18:31:03 I have no free calls Sep 03 18:31:10 SpeedEvil: plenty of SIP origination Sep 03 18:31:13 * Arkenoi wonders why there is google voice, gizmo and gtalk voice and no unification among those at all. hell, i want arkenoi@gmail.com to be valid SIP URI! Sep 03 18:31:21 luke-jr: n900 can do tls? Sep 03 18:31:35 Arkenoi: it never could be. URIs require a scheme Sep 03 18:31:36 jabber should take over sip Sep 03 18:31:39 jacekowski: not sure Sep 03 18:31:51 jacekowski: N900 can't do Jabber video it seems Sep 03 18:31:54 at least not over 3G? Sep 03 18:32:02 luke-jr: oO Sep 03 18:32:09 o must have been halucinating Sep 03 18:32:10 luke-jr, well, sip:arkenoi@gmail.com :-) Sep 03 18:32:12 i* Sep 03 18:32:15 * luke-jr ponders if Empathy+SofiaSIP would work… Sep 03 18:32:32 luke-jr: i could bet i had jabber video working on 3g Sep 03 18:32:41 jacekowski: didn't work for me ☹ Sep 03 18:32:48 luke-jr: via my jabber server @jacekowski.org Sep 03 18:32:53 Where is Hermes' data stored in /home? Sep 03 18:32:57 luke-jr, there is no difference for telepathy what network layer is Sep 03 18:32:59 to my gmail account Sep 03 18:33:08 Arkenoi: … Sep 03 18:33:13 it is not symbian so no restrictions for sure :-) Sep 03 18:33:31 Arkenoi: various protocols have varying NAT-compatibility Sep 03 18:33:35 T-Mobile data is NAT Sep 03 18:33:57 luke-jr, JINGLE does NAT reasonably good, never had any problems with it Sep 03 18:34:13 Arkenoi: not telepathy-gabble apparently… Sep 03 18:34:24 or perhaps it was the double-NAT Sep 03 18:34:31 the other end is NAT too Sep 03 18:35:01 basically, I haven't found anything that works to video chat between Ubuntu and N900 Sep 03 18:35:06 i talked via double NAT, no problems at all Sep 03 18:35:29 n900 to desktop gtalk Sep 03 18:35:36 … Sep 03 18:35:41 gtalk doesn't support Liux Sep 03 18:35:43 Linux* Sep 03 18:35:55 luke-jr: yeah i tested it again Sep 03 18:35:58 luke-jr: and it's working Sep 03 18:36:02 with like hour long lag Sep 03 18:36:03 * luke-jr peers Sep 03 18:36:10 what client? Sep 03 18:36:28 stock client on n900 Sep 03 18:36:35 on the other side obviously Sep 03 18:36:48 firefox with gtalk plugin Sep 03 18:37:02 how do you use gtalk plugin without gmail? Sep 03 18:37:28 from my phone jacekowski@jacekowski.org/Maemo i called my jacekowski@gmail.com/GMail Sep 03 18:37:50 -.- Sep 03 18:37:53 not useful Sep 03 18:38:13 but there must be normal desktop client with video call support Sep 03 18:38:23 sure, but it didn't work with N900 Sep 03 18:38:31 name the client Sep 03 18:38:34 also note that GTalk doesn't use Jingle Sep 03 18:38:38 Empathy Sep 03 18:39:04 whatever it uses Sep 03 18:39:05 works for me Sep 03 18:39:46 it uses Google's non-standard non-compatible implementation "like" Jingle Sep 03 18:40:52 well, it's compatible with normal jabber call from n900 going trough very pedanting eJabberd Sep 03 18:45:30 n900's jabber client is based on mission control, which is based on telepathy, which is what empathy is based on Sep 03 18:46:02 the same software handling the protocol on both sides Sep 03 18:46:34 there's an app in the tools that logs an application's access to the /home - can you tell me what it is? Sep 03 18:46:47 that's why it works Sep 03 18:54:05 афые фзз ьфтфпук шы тще афые фтньщку =) Sep 03 18:54:14 fast app manager is not fats anymore* Sep 03 18:58:55 hmm, that's not russian phonetic Sep 03 19:00:25 I think it's "oops I had the wrong keyboard layout turned on" Sep 03 19:04:16 Hm, weird: the memory card is actually faster than internal mmc Sep 03 19:05:42 cache? Sep 03 19:05:46 no Sep 03 19:05:57 Transferring 1+GB of data, what cache... Sep 03 19:16:08 if there's an application in the menu, how can I know what command is used to launch it? Sep 03 19:17:29 never mind, I got it, it's in /usr/share/applications/hildon Sep 03 19:24:51 Ahha, I know what is going on with access speeds Sep 03 19:25:02 Card READS are twice faster than card WRITES Sep 03 19:25:32 how come hermes load from the menu, and doesn't when I issue /opt/hermes/bin/hermes, which is the command used by the menu launcher? it gives me 2 dbus errors Sep 03 19:41:15 good evening Sep 03 19:41:44 is there any mean to make the phone vibrate except through some dbus api? I mean the following: Sep 03 19:41:47 http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/mce-dev/dbus-names_8h.html Sep 03 19:42:31 kurosu: of course, /but it isn't a phone/ Sep 03 19:43:22 any PyQt users here? Sep 03 19:43:24 well, devs Sep 03 19:44:16 hello Sep 03 19:44:24 MohammadAG, yees? Sep 03 19:44:41 luke-jr: well I'm more interested in some documentation for this than what the N900 should be called? :p Sep 03 19:44:56 MohammadAG, yees? Sep 03 19:45:40 kurosu: echo 128 > /sys/class/leds/twl4030:vibrator/brightness Sep 03 19:46:01 s/128/255 Sep 03 19:46:13 mece, any ideas how to set a background image in a PyQt app? Sep 03 19:46:13 for i in {1..255} 0; do echo $i > /sys/class/leds/twl4030:vibrator/brightness; sleep 0.1; done Sep 03 19:46:24 would be lulz ^ Sep 03 19:46:39 MohammadAG, for the whole thing you mean? Sep 03 19:46:58 yes Sep 03 19:47:49 MohammadAG, hmm. did you try throwing some stylesheets at the main widget? Sep 03 19:47:54 MohammadAG, as in http://doc.trolltech.com/4.6/stylesheet.html Sep 03 19:50:17 luke-jr: am I really free to do that? This sounds not enough generic, but point taken Sep 03 19:54:19 * RST38h watches "Sanctuary". Weak reenactment of SCP files on film. Sep 03 20:02:22 Jigglypuff: hi Sep 03 20:02:58 ah, tv series. too long to start watching. if it was a movie.. Sep 03 20:03:22 Hi guys, i tried compile supertux2 (v0.3.3) with OpenGL ES support. I used libGLES and libGLUES, build completed, but when i start the game, no picture, only black screen, but i can start level, and the sound working fine... Could anyone help me? Any Idea? Sep 03 20:03:39 Arkenoi: isn't worth it anyway Sep 03 20:03:42 my inside factory worker tells me the N8-xx with slide keyboard has a crappier camera but is slimmer and nicer than current N8, and it starts prod this fall, and N9 starts prod Q1 '11. FYI :) Sep 03 20:04:19 Arkenoi: not believable, formulaic etc Sep 03 20:05:24 * SpeedEvil sighs at lousy book->series deas. Sep 03 20:05:26 deals. Sep 03 20:05:29 Dresden Files. Sep 03 20:05:35 Could have been _awesome_. Sep 03 20:05:41 But it needs a large budget. Sep 03 20:06:10 Dresden Files suxxs after the first books Sep 03 20:09:07 movie time. I'm out. ta. Sep 03 20:09:30 get_iplayer --pvr Sep 03 20:09:32 argh Sep 03 20:10:14 kurosu: who said generic? Sep 03 20:13:16 hi Venemo Sep 03 20:13:37 me. it's hardwired to specific h/w, but it's probably better than the dbus api. Now it also depends on the required access rights through one method or the other Sep 03 20:15:37 merlin1991, what? Sep 03 20:15:53 merlin1991, they just get better and better. Sep 03 20:16:21 SpeedEvil, it needs producers to not screw around with plot elements. Sep 03 20:17:11 I want to be able to slow down music, so I was happy that maemo could run mplayer - but when I press '[' or ']' in the terminal to slow down mplayer, mplayer freezes Sep 03 20:17:39 nah GAN900, in the first few dresden is rather weak and only survives by pure luck/some awesome trick Sep 03 20:18:07 If this is the Matrix analogy, then I call bogus. :P Sep 03 20:18:08 in the later books he beats everyone that was a major thread earlier with ease Sep 03 20:18:33 Where did you stop? Sep 03 20:18:40 I read them all :D Sep 03 20:18:50 Even the graphic novel? Sep 03 20:18:56 (I diddn't go that far) Sep 03 20:19:29 I skipped those Sep 03 20:20:04 the last one I read is Turn Coat Sep 03 20:20:10 so there are actually 2 newer ones Sep 03 20:20:51 how would you slow the speed of music on the n900? Sep 03 20:21:20 wtfyeahhhh: I would start by working out where mplyaer is crashing. Sep 03 20:21:25 gdb, for examle. Sep 03 20:21:44 no idea Sep 03 20:21:47 not sure how to check Sep 03 20:21:52 it just stops right away Sep 03 20:21:59 enable debugging symbols during compilation. Sep 03 20:22:00 i hear the slower music for less than a second Sep 03 20:22:01 Compile. Sep 03 20:22:06 Run under gdb Sep 03 20:22:25 when it crashes, type 'bt' to get a backtrace, and then post this to mplayer mailing lists Sep 03 20:25:25 * ShadowJK_ 'd first of all retry it with -ao pulse Sep 03 20:25:31 maybe there is a debugging enabled one in the dev ports Sep 03 20:25:52 "mplayer -ao pulse"? Sep 03 20:26:16 another question...when I press up arrow, why doesnt the term in maemo remember the cmds from last time? Sep 03 20:26:23 stacked windows are an ass Sep 03 20:26:35 yeah, "mplayer -ao pulse file.mp3" or something Sep 03 20:27:18 wtfyeahhhh: no Sep 03 20:27:44 How can I detect maemo in a configure script? for instance what would be the value of the usual host variable? Sep 03 20:27:45 no what? Sep 03 20:27:53 [15:23:33] another question…when I press up arrow, why doesnt the term in maemo remember the cmds from last time? Sep 03 20:27:58 wtfyeahhhh: because it doesn't. Sep 03 20:28:01 wtfyeahhhh, you have to exit xterm by typing exit to have the cmds remembered Sep 03 20:28:11 kurosu: Maemo is an OS, not an architecture Sep 03 20:28:15 kurosu, I've seen people try link to libosso Sep 03 20:28:43 luke-jr: so is mingw and cygwin yet they get specific host Sep 03 20:28:56 kurosu: no they're not Sep 03 20:29:03 mingw is just a compiler Sep 03 20:29:17 + runtime + ... Sep 03 20:29:20 kurosu, use osso-product-info Sep 03 20:29:21 and they're exceptions because Windows is so screwed up Sep 03 20:29:24 the pulse thing worked Sep 03 20:29:28 kurosu: no, MingW doesn't need a runtime Sep 03 20:29:38 is there a way to press [ to slow music in the regular music player? Sep 03 20:29:42 msys is more like that.. Sep 03 20:29:42 MingW-built EXEs run natively without any dependencies Sep 03 20:29:49 also, why doesnt the regular music player allow you to skip around if its a flac file? Sep 03 20:30:01 true, though you need to code sometimes specifically for them Sep 03 20:31:07 if I was interested in debating this I would question about cygwin then, but I'm more interested in a simple test in configure Sep 03 20:31:11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keu4GiTGQ6M John Carmack demos 'Rage' on iphone - quakecon 2010 Sep 03 20:31:38 so I don't get such a simple solution for maemo Sep 03 20:32:53 that's really helpful, thanks merlin1991 Sep 03 20:38:24 wtfyeahhhh: might be possible to remap those keys in a mplayer config Sep 03 20:38:58 so it will work with the regular maemo player? Sep 03 20:39:00 media* Sep 03 20:39:11 no Sep 03 20:39:22 regular media player has no such feature Sep 03 20:39:47 ah lame Sep 03 20:39:54 thought it might be using mplayer Sep 03 20:40:13 kmplayer have key bindings? Sep 03 20:40:16 you can lower speed and /or pitch Sep 03 20:40:21 no it's mafw+gstreamer or something.. Sep 03 20:40:23 yeah, speed is what I want Sep 03 22:11:27 * DocScrutinizer51 is idly wondering if there's any such thing like BT A2DP *broadcast* (multiple headphones for one source) - or if this might be a feasible hack serverside to simply allow multiple pairings Sep 03 22:11:54 heh Sep 03 22:11:56 neat idea Sep 03 22:12:24 DocScrutinizer51, what do you know about OSMoComBB Sep 03 22:12:43 cos I was asking some symbian bod about the emulation of older devices Sep 03 22:12:48 and it was brought up Sep 03 22:12:53 he main dude is what I know best of it Sep 03 22:13:43 (haralf laf0rge welte that is) Sep 03 22:14:15 hmm I shall have to investigate further Sep 03 22:14:23 i dont think its what I want however Sep 03 22:14:39 damn getting tennis thumb trying to type without covering gsm ant Sep 03 22:14:42 because from what I can see, its OSS implementation of the low level gsm driver Sep 03 22:15:17 yep Sep 03 22:15:32 whole MT gsm stack Sep 03 22:16:35 on calypso (fr and some old moto? phones) Sep 03 22:17:12 yeah DocScrutinizer51 Sep 03 22:17:25 just looked interesting from a different angle at least Sep 03 22:17:34 soft cell tainted love, have to go in (RF white area) Sep 03 22:24:59 People here know about the WeTab? http://wetab.mobi/en It seems they will beat Nokia for the first MeeGo device. Sep 03 22:26:12 a nice tablet, not a mobile Sep 03 22:27:18 I'd like nokia to release something like this. Sep 03 22:28:46 crappy form factor Sep 03 22:29:35 uhsf, "exclusive content" isnt anything that decoys me. The world is already mine :D Sep 03 22:29:44 uhsf: if it were a GSM enabled device I'd really roll on floor laughing Sep 03 22:30:08 "news like never before" cannot be better than USENET Sep 03 22:30:58 "Because the whole world is working for you", allright, that is a point where i share my opinion Sep 03 22:31:17 * DocScrutinizer51 feels silly Sep 03 22:31:33 ok so you don't like gsm devices bigger than n900 Sep 03 22:31:46 i'd really go for a *smaller* gsm device Sep 03 22:31:51 possibly something without an OS Sep 03 22:31:56 doesn't look like a bad device, but i think the archos tablets might be sightly better Sep 03 22:31:58 you know, a phone :) Sep 03 22:32:38 i dont need a bigger one myself, because my eyes are myopically anyway Sep 03 22:32:41 Hey guys Sep 03 22:33:19 but sometimes it would be nice to have a bigger screen, especially when you want show something to someone else Sep 03 22:33:32 i like that the display size is listed in inches... you have to deal with our crappy measurement system :P Sep 03 22:33:41 I'd *adore* a gsm device size of N810 Sep 03 22:34:36 no luke-jr, not double the thickness and 1.7 times the weight Sep 03 22:36:14 just a N810 maybe + 10% each dimension Sep 03 22:36:17 i'd love an ipad that didn't have apple's software restrictions and hardware restrictions Sep 03 22:36:34 ieatlint, that's no ipad then :D Sep 03 22:36:49 DocScrutinizer51, see the person who is making n810 gsm Sep 03 22:36:50 :P Sep 03 22:37:38 DocScrutinizer51, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=806574#post806574 Sep 03 22:37:44 page 2 has nice pics Sep 03 22:37:53 i'm just crazy i guess for wanting things like a function usb port, or an sd card slot, or the ability to truly multitask (and not just dual-task on pre-approved applications that apple blesses) i guess Sep 03 22:37:54 lcuk: if that's the proj I seen 3 months ago, then screw it. no phone Sep 03 22:38:06 I'd love a 10" 1080p OLED Linux slate tablet. Sep 03 22:38:44 1080p on 10" seems overkill Sep 03 22:39:14 720p is realistic... but there aren't even many 15"+ laptops that have 1080p Sep 03 22:39:31 ieatlint, for a netbook, not a tablet. Sep 03 22:39:54 Tablet's need to have enough dpi to pixel double websites. Sep 03 22:41:30 dunno, i think 720p would be easily sufficient, and the extra processing power needed for 1080p would be wasted Sep 03 22:41:35 better put to use elsewhere Sep 03 23:20:52 DocScrutinizer51: weakling Sep 03 23:28:37 wut Sep 03 23:28:44 cp -a /media/mmc1/ /home/user/MyDocs/16G Sep 03 23:28:50 enjoy Sep 03 23:28:58 :-( Sep 03 23:30:03 ? Sep 03 23:30:56 freeze system friggin shit Sep 03 23:35:15 rsync dat shit Sep 03 23:52:19 MohammadAG51, ping Sep 04 00:18:34 yeah really. Copy your uSD (16G quite partially populated) to eMMC - end with system completely freezing, only thing that still somewhat works is screenlock and taskswitcher. even this freezes when you dare to close conversations in taskswitcher -> "conversations not responsive. close?" yes/no no effect other than clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick Sep 04 00:18:50 why? Sep 04 00:18:52 :| Sep 04 00:19:05 wait, why aren't you scrutinizing anymore? Sep 04 00:19:17 decided it wasn't worth the effort and started burning shit? Sep 04 00:19:26 mean whhile battery is at end, and yeah, 90s after plugin it notices "charging" Sep 04 00:19:50 fireworks over Sep 04 00:20:00 did you complete the copy at least? Sep 04 00:20:19 it's STILL COPYING :-((( Sep 04 00:20:22 and you should've used rsync Sep 04 00:20:23 :P Sep 04 00:20:28 ~2GB Sep 04 00:20:53 rsync > cp any day of the week Sep 04 00:21:04 rsync for copying my local uSD to my local eMMC?? Sep 04 00:21:17 yeah Sep 04 00:21:20 rsync is fucking awesome Sep 04 00:21:24 kerio: except wednesday. Sep 04 00:21:28 DocScrutinizer, rsync only copies what needs copying Sep 04 00:21:32 nah, including wednesday Sep 04 00:21:38 but you are taking a backup? so that's everything Sep 04 00:21:51 sorry dude my beer in pub is waiting, and for aforementioned reasons I'll not be able to continue this convo Sep 04 00:22:03 why do you have a n900 if you can't irc while in a pub? Sep 04 00:22:06 Good luck! Sep 04 00:22:08 MNZ: all needed copying Sep 04 00:22:24 wut? Sep 04 00:22:28 it lives Sep 04 00:22:32 yay ^_^ Sep 04 00:22:36 DocScrutinizer51: ping Sep 04 00:22:38 swap is a bitch Sep 04 00:22:51 clirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk Sep 04 00:22:53 i bet that's what fucks up IO the most Sep 04 00:22:53 lol Sep 04 00:23:19 cya Sep 04 00:23:43 fix fsckng IO freeze issue while I care for my beer Sep 04 00:23:48 peace doc Sep 04 00:24:07 linux claims ram for io cache, moving shit to the swap Sep 04 00:24:15 in the meantime, everything else tries to access the swapped ram Sep 04 00:24:20 and the system grinds to a halt Sep 04 00:24:28 because, you know, swap still sucks Sep 04 00:25:12 kerio, that's what swapiness setting is for Sep 04 00:25:18 0 or 100? Sep 04 00:25:44 I don't remember any more Sep 04 00:26:01 but the kernel does it's best to guess what you are thinking of doing and what you want Sep 04 00:26:05 so cut it some slack! Sep 04 00:26:59 a quick question, would it be safe to symlink the pymaemo folder moving it toinside MyDocs? Sep 04 00:28:09 i had to reflash my N900 and i don't remember all i had to do to have rootfs and /opt not run out of space last time :( Sep 04 00:28:48 i guess 0 Sep 04 00:28:50 since swap sucks :< Sep 04 00:30:08 kerio, it doesn't really suck when the OOM, God spare us from its evils, kicks in to kill your microb session with that email you've been writing for a friggin hour Sep 04 00:30:23 (that is, if you have swapoff) Sep 04 00:30:30 not swapoff Sep 04 00:30:33 just swappiness to ' Sep 04 00:30:35 to 0 Sep 04 00:30:42 I had gnuplot kill damn near my whole laptop. Sep 04 00:30:43 as in, "don't swap untill you have to" Sep 04 00:31:06 gnuplot is awesome Sep 04 00:31:09 Then I realised I was trying to plot 20000 lines from a 1.3 million line file. Sep 04 00:31:13 DON'T DIS THE NEWPLOT Sep 04 00:31:22 and by newplot i obviously mean gnuplot Sep 04 00:31:26 * kerio glances at the clock and sighs Sep 04 00:31:38 SpeedEvil: heh Sep 04 00:31:50 well, I have read a thread over at lkml about the merits of swapiness set to 100.... the make some compelling points. It just doesn't always work :/ Sep 04 00:32:01 swappiness to 100 makes sense for a desktop Sep 04 00:32:09 I mean a lot of the time you have stuff that's sitting in there taking up precious cache space Sep 04 00:32:16 swap needs a few more tweakables. Sep 04 00:32:25 MNZ: maemo has a lot of stuff that's there taking precious cache space Sep 04 00:32:28 and it needs *all* Sep 04 00:32:40 and really, who needs lots of IO on a mobile device Sep 04 00:32:55 The madvise() system call advises the kernel about how to handle Sep 04 00:32:55 paging input/output in the address range beginning at address addr Sep 04 00:32:55 and with size length bytes. It allows an application to tell the Sep 04 00:32:55 kernel how it expects to use some mapped or shared memory areas, Sep 04 00:33:32 ok, how about /opt/var , is it safe to move it to mydocs and symlink it? Sep 04 00:33:50 TiagoTiago, don't Sep 04 00:33:57 ok Sep 04 00:34:07 TiagoTiago, did you finish copyng? Sep 04 00:34:10 TiagoTiago, stuff in /opt isn't on rootfs Sep 04 00:34:41 /opt is also needing free space Sep 04 00:34:55 moving stuff to MyDocs will result in fail Sep 04 00:34:57 since mydocs is vfat Sep 04 00:35:17 TiagoTiago, whats up now? have you recovered the content on opt Sep 04 00:35:22 What I did was tar up all the stuff on mydocs to home. Sep 04 00:35:29 ie, how did you go from "no files in opt" last night, to this now Sep 04 00:35:36 really, reflash Sep 04 00:35:41 it's no biggie :< Sep 04 00:36:11 no,, i reflashed rootfs, it recreated \opt, now i' reinstalling all the shit i had before, but there's not wnough space for everything yet Sep 04 00:36:19 i'm Sep 04 00:36:57 MyDocs survived the reflash to rootfs just fine though:) Sep 04 00:37:13 because it's on the eMMC not on the rootfs Sep 04 00:37:46 yeah, but i was told to backup it in case somthing went wrong with the reflashing Sep 04 00:39:17 i beleieve it's usually safe to move and symlink shit to MyDocs if it isn't used at boot and the files and folders in question don't use any of the fancy features missing in VFAT, is not correct? Sep 04 00:39:58 is that not+ Sep 04 00:39:59 * Sep 04 00:40:47 TiagoTiago, no, moving stuff to MyDocs and symlinking ontop of the symlinks! will cause problems Sep 04 00:41:00 besides, content within the folders themselves might expect/require permissions Sep 04 00:41:05 and vfat cannot host them Sep 04 00:41:19 TiagoTiago, i am pleased you got it back working though Sep 04 00:41:48 I simply tarred up all on mydocs onto /home. Then deleted the partition, made a new 4G one for mydocs, and a 26 for data. Sep 04 00:41:55 I mount /home/user/data on boot Sep 04 00:41:58 nomis, i mean moving plain folders and files, stuff like game data etc Sep 04 00:42:37 hm, i guess i might have fucked things up by moving pymaemo, did it had any executables? :( Sep 04 00:42:45 definetely Sep 04 00:42:45 :) Sep 04 00:42:51 MyDocs is actually noexec Sep 04 00:42:53 so yeah Sep 04 00:43:00 fuck Sep 04 00:43:05 indeed Sep 04 00:43:19 any way i can fix this without yet another rfeflash? Sep 04 00:43:21 o.o Sep 04 00:43:23 * lcuk giggles Sep 04 00:43:24 TiagoTiago: probably not Sep 04 00:43:30 TiagoTiago, backup all your stuff Sep 04 00:43:32 and reflash Sep 04 00:43:48 fuck :( Sep 04 00:43:52 I can see updates for both pyqt4demo and pyqt4full but I can not install as it complains about conflicts Sep 04 00:44:00 just reflash, if you backed up last night theres not much :P Sep 04 00:44:14 and just take care with sizes of installing stuff Sep 04 00:44:19 reflashing is incredibly fast anyway Sep 04 00:44:21 my car can fit 4 people in it Sep 04 00:44:30 it takes ages to install shit Sep 04 00:44:30 i dont try to squash 25 Sep 04 00:44:48 lcuk: that's why you'll never enter the guinness world record Sep 04 00:44:54 kerio, lol Sep 04 00:45:58 could someonee please upload their pymaemo folder for me to replace the one i fucked up please? Sep 04 00:46:47 TiagoTiago, how about an alternative Sep 04 00:46:56 REFLASH Sep 04 00:47:17 check contents of /var/cache/apt/archives Sep 04 00:47:22 most of the .debs should be there Sep 04 00:47:29 copy them somewhere Sep 04 00:47:34 mydocs Sep 04 00:47:37 for instance Sep 04 00:47:44 and then REFLASH Sep 04 00:47:58 then you dont have to redownload them all you could do a bulk dpkg -i Sep 04 00:48:17 and then when you need to reflash again tomorrow Sep 04 00:48:23 you will be quicker again :P Sep 04 00:48:24 it takes ages to install shit, i alreadey installed a buch of stuff alrfeady Sep 04 00:48:36 TiagoTiago: use apt Sep 04 00:48:44 even with local debs Sep 04 00:49:08 should I remove the old ones first? it is strange as it is supposed to 'update' Sep 04 00:49:26 please, it's just a single folder, i shouldn't need to reset everything just to repl ace a single folder Sep 04 00:50:30 how big is it? Sep 04 00:51:38 you guys are hesitanting on doing my request 'because it's too big to upload imn a decent amount of time? Sep 04 00:52:01 we're hesitating because indulging into someone's mistakes is definetely *not* helping them Sep 04 00:52:05 which is what this channel is for Sep 04 00:52:12 lol Sep 04 00:53:01 you screwed up Sep 04 00:53:04 i should have confirmed the yes i got here was really for me and not part of a different convo, i've learned my lesson Sep 04 00:53:19 next time, you'll think twice before moving unix stuff into a non-unix fs Sep 04 00:53:47 i mean, it's not like we don't want to help you because it's long and boring Sep 04 00:53:51 we're doing this for you :P Sep 04 00:54:20 sure, though i had already done it safelly with lots of folders, i just went a bit too fast for safety with this folder Sep 04 00:54:35 TiagoTiago, which folder again? Sep 04 00:54:38 you can fix the perms Sep 04 00:54:43 pymaemo in /opt Sep 04 00:55:07 nomis, i checked the copy in mydocs and somthing went wrong, itm+ empty :( Sep 04 00:55:15 ( swap is a bitch) No swapping involved - I got load applet, stating CPU 100%, swap <10% Sep 04 00:55:19 no* Sep 04 00:55:30 it's Sep 04 00:55:32 DocScrutinizer: already drank your beer? Sep 04 00:55:52 sure. Was half empty 0.33 Sep 04 00:56:03 so basicly, worse than loosing permissions i've accidently deleted the folde Sep 04 00:56:03 I just ran home for charger Sep 04 00:56:06 that's... not enuff beer Sep 04 00:56:07 folder Sep 04 00:56:51 clirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrck - it still is alive, over there :-D Sep 04 00:57:06 (IRC highlite) Sep 04 00:57:07 linux doesn't crash ^_^ Sep 04 00:57:10 is there a way to do a nondestructive flashing that just adds missing files not touching anything else? Sep 04 00:57:28 TiagoTiago, yeah, fiasco image surgery Sep 04 00:57:30 kerio: it just gets slow as molasses Sep 04 00:57:37 which is still better than blowing up Sep 04 00:57:44 at least, for your data Sep 04 00:58:12 TiagoTiago, since its you Sep 04 00:58:19 i will send you the files by irc Sep 04 00:58:22 using binary Sep 04 00:58:26 1101010101010101010101011101010101 Sep 04 00:58:33 101010101110101111010110101010011001010101 Sep 04 00:58:37 101010101011010111100001010101 Sep 04 00:58:38 :p Sep 04 00:58:41 well, the call was `cp -apv ...` so let's see what the v detail got us Sep 04 00:58:42 heh hold on Sep 04 00:58:47 you said pymaemo? Sep 04 00:58:58 where can i learn how to that, or even better, where can i find a step by step guide that will let me achive the result even if i don't understand what Im' doing? Sep 04 00:59:01 yep Sep 04 00:59:02 that is not one of the packages in the image.... just reinstall the package Sep 04 00:59:48 it's not? Sep 04 00:59:51 hm Sep 04 00:59:58 nvm what I just said Sep 04 01:00:02 because I have no idea Sep 04 01:00:41 well, i/e just hit enter for "apt-get install pymaemo" lets see what happens Sep 04 01:00:58 crap, couldn't find it :( Sep 04 01:01:00 TiagoTiago, well I just searched around and did some grepping, no package Sep 04 01:01:11 ok hold on Sep 04 01:01:37 lcuk: what's causing this incredible mess? is maemo kernel for the litter? Sep 04 01:02:46 does xchat supports file transfer? and would it preserve file atributes? Sep 04 01:02:51 DocScrutinizer, ? Sep 04 01:03:17 lcuk: I mean, a `cp -apv /some/dir/with/4GB /some/where/else` ustn't result in *complete* unusability of device, even for a nice -10 rootsh Sep 04 01:03:18 i am in other chans DocScrutinizer so not watching scrollback Sep 04 01:03:36 what is -apv? Sep 04 01:03:44 and when is it noticed as a problem? Sep 04 01:03:53 archive preserve-permns verbose Sep 04 01:03:56 and where are the 2 paths Sep 04 01:04:05 and what else is running Sep 04 01:04:10 ie, is it getting trackered Sep 04 01:04:19 first path = uSD, 2nd = eMMC Sep 04 01:04:19 or is norton kicking in :P Sep 04 01:04:27 where in emmc Sep 04 01:04:30 nothing else is running Sep 04 01:04:35 tracker then likely Sep 04 01:04:42 no tracker Sep 04 01:04:45 inotify kicking in Sep 04 01:04:49 and scanning whilst copying Sep 04 01:04:51 hm? Sep 04 01:05:04 that's a killer cmd in a root shell with prio 0 Sep 04 01:05:06 I was under the impression rootfs.jffs2 inside the fiasco image is just an FS image... what's "HIT archive data" ? Sep 04 01:05:15 DocScrutinizer, show me specifically then Sep 04 01:05:25 can't anyone help me fix my mistake other than by insisting i reflash again? Sep 04 01:05:28 its not a killer until you give specifics really Sep 04 01:05:31 please? Sep 04 01:05:32 and I would put it to tracker Sep 04 01:05:44 TiagoTiago, I was just looking into the thing, but I can't mount the rootfs... just hold on for a few Sep 04 01:05:49 TiagoTiago, what speed kernel are you running on Sep 04 01:05:57 ok, thanx Sep 04 01:06:01 cp -apv /media/mmc1 /home/user/MyDocs/16g Sep 04 01:06:12 DocScrutinizer: try killing the tracker Sep 04 01:06:14 DocScrutinizer, and how do you know that tracker isnt kicking in Sep 04 01:06:17 was the exact command, shot in a root shell Sep 04 01:06:19 i left it at the default after the reflash Sep 04 01:06:34 tracker is a whiny bitch when you copy files around Sep 04 01:06:36 BS, there's no tracker involved Sep 04 01:06:37 got the same thing Sep 04 01:06:46 DocScrutinizer, ? Sep 04 01:06:48 how do you know Sep 04 01:06:56 tracker kicks in when files dropped into folders Sep 04 01:07:00 you are dropping files into folders Sep 04 01:07:12 it kills even a nice -10 bash Sep 04 01:07:15 now, you please tell me how you know its now Sep 04 01:07:16 not Sep 04 01:07:25 the device freezes completely Sep 04 01:07:34 ok, so what is tracker doing Sep 04 01:07:37 or top Sep 04 01:07:43 tbh there's not even a way to kill any tracker Sep 04 01:07:49 sigh Sep 04 01:08:02 but *my* tracker runs on nice -10 Sep 04 01:08:19 htop freezes Sep 04 01:08:23 what is top of top Sep 04 01:08:28 ahh was just missing the module for jffs2 :| Sep 04 01:08:45 anything arbitrary on top of top Sep 04 01:08:51 DocScrutinizer, you have evaded every simple question i have asked :P Sep 04 01:09:01 even changing every 10 min Sep 04 01:09:36 DocScrutinizer: i had the same problem Sep 04 01:09:46 did a copy on a folder that wasn't tracked Sep 04 01:09:47 no problems Sep 04 01:09:52 lcuk: you're asking Q that can't be answered, as you doen't understand the severity of the problem Sep 04 01:10:31 DocScrutinizer: nuke the copy from orbit Sep 04 01:10:45 so instant death the minute you copy a file from mmc1 to mydocs? Sep 04 01:11:01 the device is TOTALLY frozen for everybody but me I'm willing to wait 10min for a result of a click Sep 04 01:11:15 DocScrutinizer: it's the tracker Sep 04 01:11:17 really Sep 04 01:11:18 TiagoTiago, I'm sorry but I can't seem to extract the image Sep 04 01:11:21 i had the same fucking problem Sep 04 01:11:26 why aren't you listening to me :'( Sep 04 01:11:27 :( Sep 04 01:11:29 lcuk: nope, it built up over 5 min Sep 04 01:11:33 TiagoTiago, actually.. Sep 04 01:11:34 and DocScrutinizer potentially mucking with the nice of things may not be helping Sep 04 01:11:43 really, stop the copy Sep 04 01:11:56 create a non-tracked directory, or tar everything into a single file Sep 04 01:11:58 and try again Sep 04 01:12:16 can you compress the folder from your device in a format that preserves atributes and upload or otherwise send it to me somehow? Sep 04 01:12:24 TiagoTiago: yes i can Sep 04 01:12:44 do it please? Sep 04 01:12:52 kerio: BS, my tracker is at nice -10 and configured to ignore verything on eMMC except .music or whatever Sep 04 01:12:52 no Sep 04 01:12:55 TiagoTiago, apt-get install --reinstall python2.5-minimal python-support python2.5 python-osso Sep 04 01:13:09 DocScrutinizer, why is tracker at -10 Sep 04 01:13:11 thanx, i!l try that :) Sep 04 01:13:27 lcuk: because I edited trackers config Sep 04 01:13:37 nice 10 Sep 04 01:13:47 TiagoTiago, if I was in anyway awake I would have suggested that much earlier -__-" Sep 04 01:13:53 it's not called nice in tracker's config Sep 04 01:14:01 but it does nice Sep 04 01:14:11 DocScrutinizer, ok Sep 04 01:14:16 so for a user to reproduce Sep 04 01:14:19 they have to get root Sep 04 01:14:25 modify the config Sep 04 01:14:28 add a new mmc Sep 04 01:14:31 copy some files Sep 04 01:14:32 it's alright, thanx for insisting on trying to find a solution for my issue :) Sep 04 01:14:39 err what? Sep 04 01:15:03 i'd go "kill tracker" Sep 04 01:15:24 i mean, killall Sep 04 01:15:31 TiagoTiago, np, just hope it works right :/ Sep 04 01:15:44 while true; do killall -9 tracker; done Sep 04 01:15:49 kerio: no problem, I'll manage to enter that in 5min, and probably in 10min it'll tell me 'no process to kill' Sep 04 01:15:53 heh Sep 04 01:16:04 why don't you want to stop the copy? :/ Sep 04 01:16:12 hm, it got errors :( Sep 04 01:16:14 fsck Sep 04 01:16:17 /usr/libexec/hildon Sep 04 01:16:38 hitting higher than tracker in this instance Sep 04 01:16:46 I can stop the copy any time, by ^Z, and then system back to normal. Do you think I'm a 14yo nob? Sep 04 01:16:48 copying all jpgs from dcim onto my mmc Sep 04 01:16:56 but its 10% only Sep 04 01:17:00 I do. Sep 04 01:17:01 TiagoTiago, pastebin? Sep 04 01:17:06 DocScrutinizer: then why don't you... do that Sep 04 01:17:15 so you can try to stop the tracker to see if it's that Sep 04 01:17:19 or if it's something else Sep 04 01:17:31 kerio: why don't you fix IO freeze? do it! Sep 04 01:17:34 doc Sep 04 01:17:36 http://pastebin.com/BC5ws7Nc Sep 04 01:17:39 what cpu% is the cp command eating Sep 04 01:17:47 i blame tracker :D Sep 04 01:17:48 100% Sep 04 01:17:56 specifically cp? Sep 04 01:18:02 DocScrutinizer, is that IOWait or actual cpu usage? Sep 04 01:18:04 ok, i blame busybox Sep 04 01:18:05 its eating 1.9% here Sep 04 01:18:14 ooh upto 5 Sep 04 01:18:25 for all I can get from htop with 1 refresh every 10 min, yes. 100% copy Sep 04 01:18:33 "top" Sep 04 01:18:36 Stupid ISP opted me back into their idiotic DNS hijacking program. Sep 04 01:18:37 not htop :P Sep 04 01:18:42 bah Sep 04 01:18:53 DocScrutinizer, reproducability please Sep 04 01:18:58 you understand why :P Sep 04 01:19:00 GeneralAntilles: call them and tell them you'll quit the contract if they don't get rid of that bullshit for you Sep 04 01:19:13 that usually helps Sep 04 01:19:22 TiagoTiago, ah... it's unpacking the wrong package first... Sep 04 01:19:32 GeneralAntilles, argh Sep 04 01:19:45 the internet is more than the web but they dont understand :'( Sep 04 01:19:58 lcuk: you mean, like, the facebook? Sep 04 01:20:05 TiagoTiago, apt-get install --reinstall python2.5 Sep 04 01:20:11 i gotta change the order of the names after reinstall? what would be the correct sequence? Sep 04 01:20:12 ok Sep 04 01:20:37 TiagoTiago, no, dpkg will re-order them. Just issue the python2.5 one first, then all the others Sep 04 01:21:00 ok Sep 04 01:22:06 http://pastebin.com/NG23UJYB :( Sep 04 01:22:43 TiagoTiago, okay you probably still have pymaemo mounts still active.... Sep 04 01:22:53 TiagoTiago, pastebin the output of the 'mount' command Sep 04 01:23:01 load 9.06, lag for a screen click:20s, top of htop: htop, CPU:13% Sep 04 01:23:02 DocScrutinizer, "/usr/libexec/gst-.." Sep 04 01:23:05 killing it Sep 04 01:23:41 when copying from mmc to MyDocs, finding out specific Sep 04 01:23:50 audio clicks storing up like 3min, then clirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk Sep 04 01:23:52 http://pastebin.com/grsLxqvr Sep 04 01:24:34 TiagoTiago, yes you do. Well, what I'm about to say next is highly speculation, but based on educated guesses Sep 04 01:24:59 can i unmount those safelly and then repeat the installs? Sep 04 01:25:03 apt-get remove pymaemo-optify Sep 04 01:25:06 now recheck mounts Sep 04 01:25:12 if still there, umount them Sep 04 01:25:12 lcuk: entering a single key/char to xterm takes some 5s, starting and executing top takes 3 min Sep 04 01:25:18 til first display Sep 04 01:25:37 /usr/lib/tracker/tracker-extract Sep 04 01:25:51 ok Sep 04 01:26:00 and no, it's not dbus-scripting going havoc this time, only 146 processes Sep 04 01:28:41 that ididn't go so well, it started to uninstall a bunch of things,, and then it rebooted.... Sep 04 01:28:55 wait what. Sep 04 01:29:14 should have stopped it if it pulled dependencies down :S let me check the deps Sep 04 01:29:47 the terminal listed a bunch of things it was also uninstalling, and then before i could read it all it i t rebooted Sep 04 01:30:04 ?? so did it continue with the uninstall? Sep 04 01:30:12 because it has to wait for your input really Sep 04 01:30:12 * lcuk was under the impression there is a "Y/N" option asked Sep 04 01:30:28 DocScrutinizer, after hte first attempt Sep 04 01:30:31 i don't remember hitting it Sep 04 01:30:33 i redeleted fies and tried agian Sep 04 01:30:39 now the cp is taking <1% Sep 04 01:31:04 i mean, i just remember runnign the command, then switching to xchat, then switching back when i saw some msgs about bluetooth and it had a big list, i was reading and it rebooted Sep 04 01:31:16 my copy still not finished, and taking the device to nirvana Sep 04 01:31:16 The hell are you guys doing? Sep 04 01:31:39 after reboot there are a lot of pymaemo mounts still there Sep 04 01:31:51 h4waii, DocScrutinizer is stresstesting Sep 04 01:31:52 TiagoTiago, apt-cache policy pymaemo-optify Sep 04 01:31:58 lcuk: ( DocScrutinizer, "/usr/libexec/gst-..") doesn't help, I can't get the correct cmdline in any reasonable time Sep 04 01:32:08 DocScrutinizer, me neither Sep 04 01:32:15 it was actually sluggish that one time Sep 04 01:32:19 when i opened the font select Sep 04 01:32:27 and when it came back with smaller font it wasnt on top Sep 04 01:32:28 DocScrutinizer, ps aux | grep gst- Sep 04 01:32:33 so it mayv been a redherring Sep 04 01:32:37 or did I get you wrong? Sep 04 01:32:51 heh clicks almost like normal from other room, maybe it recovers Sep 04 01:33:27 MNZ: I'll tell you the result of that when it appears on screen, in 3h Sep 04 01:34:15 TiagoTiago_, so... your device is rebooting randomly? Sep 04 01:34:29 http://pastebin.com/jFb2CBkp Sep 04 01:34:40 dunno, first one after the reflash Sep 04 01:35:00 as expected, pymaemo-optify was obviously not uninstalled Sep 04 01:35:53 I just checked, all python packages depend on it. which is good actually. just nuke everything python and reinstall it Sep 04 01:36:20 how exactly? Sep 04 01:36:46 apt-get remove pymaemo-optify Sep 04 01:36:59 wasn't that what we just tried? Sep 04 01:37:07 which will pull with it all python packages. Sep 04 01:37:20 i just found my n810 in a box! i haven't seen this thing in a year. Sep 04 01:37:26 yeah, except your device reboot randomly, and I doubt it's got to do with removing python Sep 04 01:37:29 sevard, :D Sep 04 01:37:36 anything awesome for this old platform in a year? Sep 04 01:37:38 E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'dpkg --configure -a' to correct the problem. Sep 04 01:37:39 install telescope on it Sep 04 01:37:48 TiagoTiago, do so Sep 04 01:37:50 gives you the dashboard effect without needing 3d Sep 04 01:37:56 k Sep 04 01:38:03 TiagoTiago, please confirm the deps it's removing though when you start the remove. Sep 04 01:38:04 you can tile your apps :D Sep 04 01:38:05 ^ctrl Z and everything allllll back to normal (except I typed ahead a lot) Sep 04 01:38:12 telescope hmm Sep 04 01:38:28 DocScrutinizer: yay Sep 04 01:38:29 ill look once all the updates finish lol Sep 04 01:38:38 page faults? Sep 04 01:39:05 im so excited this thing was my best friend for the longest time. i was homeless and it was my main pc Sep 04 01:39:28 sevard, :) Sep 04 01:39:30 just 8 wrote 'almost all back to " Sep 04 01:39:31 i did had a few random reboots before i touched the overclocking stuff, very sporadic events though Sep 04 01:39:32 stealing wifi and power, writing resumes. it got me a nice job Sep 04 01:39:44 awesome ! Sep 04 01:39:48 end still typing ahead whole sentences Sep 04 01:39:52 dont steal tho ! Sep 04 01:39:53 :D Sep 04 01:39:54 Sounds like a Nokia ad campaign in the making. Sep 04 01:39:59 haha Sep 04 01:40:02 haha Sep 04 01:40:02 derf, thinking the same lol Sep 04 01:40:18 this sucks! Sep 04 01:40:49 DocScrutinizer, what are you actually copying? Sep 04 01:40:55 is it stuff that tracker likes to eat? Sep 04 01:41:13 ok, its also uninstalling a bunch of python programs, this time i explicitly permitted it, probably gonna be better to install those agaon once python is fixed anyway Sep 04 01:41:13 ie 10gb of movies Sep 04 01:41:16 last post of DocScrutinizer51 was completely typed and entered before 3rd char showed up Sep 04 01:41:20 or 10gb of random Sep 04 01:41:47 TiagoTiago, actually, it's removing python itself, along with all python based programs Sep 04 01:41:53 TiagoTiago_, Sep 04 01:42:08 so far, you have spent the last 2 nights on here Sep 04 01:42:09 yep Sep 04 01:42:16 here Sep 04 01:42:20 heh* Sep 04 01:42:39 lcuk i can't remembe how to get rid of the black abc bar in terminal Â:/ Sep 04 01:42:49 TiagoTiago, if all goes as the pre and postrm scripts dictate, then you should have no mounts from pymaemo, and just "apt-get install python2.5" and you are done Sep 04 01:42:52 also i installed telescope how the heck do i run it Sep 04 01:43:07 hmmm sevard the black bar, IDK Sep 04 01:43:07 even when you're being grumpy and calling me names, it's quite productive to come here for help :) Sep 04 01:43:11 reboot perhaps Sep 04 01:43:21 /media/mmc1/aux-install/900808/uImage-2.6.29-oe10+gitr119838+2d158aae9d8d36f575504f59884ed8e80802efe2-r3.5-om-gta02.bin -> /home/user/MyDocs/16G/mmc1/aux-install/900808/uImage-2.6.29-oe10+gitr119838+2d158aae9d8d36f575504f59884ed8e80802efe2-r3.5-om-gta02.bin/media/mmc1/aux-install/900808/uImage-2.6.29-oe10+gitr119838+2d158aae9d8d36f575504f59884ed8e80802efe2-r3.5-om-gta02.bin -> /home/user/MyDocs/16G/mmc1/aux-install Sep 04 01:43:28 TiagoTiago_, oh we aint grumpy Sep 04 01:43:34 ill try rebooting! Sep 04 01:43:39 its informative to see you fail Sep 04 01:43:41 sorry "it's dead Jim" Sep 04 01:43:46 especially since you were overclocking Sep 04 01:43:48 anyone know why i cant use my usb drive in my CANON camera after i had formated in my n900 :) Sep 04 01:43:49 /900808/uImage-2.6.29-oe10+gitr119838+2d158aae9d8d36f575504f59884ed8e80802efe2-r3.5-om-gta02.bin Sep 04 01:43:56 Stress testing whatmt, lcuk? Sep 04 01:44:23 h4waii, hes got a bug where something is eating his interactivity Sep 04 01:44:33 and shouting louder than usual ;) Sep 04 01:44:43 ok, no pymaemo mounts now Sep 04 01:44:53 DocScrutinizer51, ok, so its a single massive file Sep 04 01:45:00 npe Sep 04 01:45:03 nope Sep 04 01:45:17 TiagoTiago, good, now "apt-get install python2.5" Sep 04 01:45:33 i am off to bed Sep 04 01:45:38 i shouldv gone earlier Sep 04 01:45:48 lcuk, don't you want to see TiagoTiago_ finally succeed :O Sep 04 01:45:48 rest well, dude Sep 04 01:45:53 lol Sep 04 01:45:59 it copied the backup of the eMMC I did to uSD, back to eMMC. It copied "9" video and other shit just "fine" while freezing the device Sep 04 01:46:03 MNZ, nahh he will be back tomoroow :P Sep 04 01:46:10 lol Sep 04 01:46:18 lcuk, haha. well good night to you sir Sep 04 01:46:27 and now I stopped the copy by ^Z and still device is crap Sep 04 01:46:32 molasses Sep 04 01:46:39 lcuk: rebooted... ;my home button still isnt doing anything new... interesting Sep 04 01:46:43 * lcuk actually installs new libliqbase first and considers testing it on -devel Sep 04 01:46:49 hmm Sep 04 01:46:57 DocScrutinizer, everything swapped or what? Sep 04 01:47:08 dunno id that's thermo-throttle or what Sep 04 01:47:14 lol Sep 04 01:47:24 swap is down to 10%, according to load applet Sep 04 01:47:56 i can launch it from term Sep 04 01:48:13 Background mode: 2 Sep 04 01:48:14 btw load applet is just fine, updates every second Sep 04 01:48:15 X Error! [10, 33, 0] Sep 04 01:48:22 increase in themperature is supposed to increase resistance in most electronic things, so i guess thermo-throtling is an inherent property os most circuits Sep 04 01:48:38 also task switcher usually kicks in just in 5s Sep 04 01:48:52 but takes 100s to select any task Sep 04 01:49:28 lock slider switch also fine Sep 04 01:50:05 lemme check if I can get a ssh over wifi Sep 04 01:50:09 MNZ : http://pastebin.com/k8JdpKrV Sep 04 01:50:45 well, a bit sluggish, but connects Sep 04 01:51:15 Mem: 243384K used, 2156K free, 0K shrd, 9864K buff, 106232K cached Sep 04 01:51:16 CPU: 7.7% usr 6.9% sys 0.0% nice 0.0% idle 85.3% io 0.0% irq 0.0% softirq Sep 04 01:51:18 Load average: 8.08 8.01 8.08 Sep 04 01:51:19 PID PPID USER STAT RSS %MEM PU COMMAND Sep 04 01:51:21 5408 5405 user S 964 0.3 5.7 /opt/maemo/usr/bin/htop Sep 04 01:52:17 well, there's your answer :) Sep 04 01:52:25 a little busy with the io Sep 04 01:52:26 TiagoTiago, 0_o that's not supposed to happen, but try "apt-get install -f" Sep 04 01:52:29 nice:) Sep 04 01:52:31 transferring stuff to emmc? Sep 04 01:52:36 can anybody explain to me how I get a load of 8.08 with a CPU usage of 10%??? Sep 04 01:52:47 DocScrutinizer, waiting on io Sep 04 01:52:51 read what you pasted :P Sep 04 01:52:52 yep Sep 04 01:53:02 cause it's still copying Sep 04 01:53:06 (buffers) Sep 04 01:54:04 sooo, what explanation did you need? Sep 04 01:54:09 nota bene I ^Z the cp command some 10min ago Sep 04 01:54:25 ok Sep 04 01:54:42 TiagoTiago, it should work it out alone, it's a rather trivial package problem. But then again I'm not exactly sure how you uninstalled python and apt didn't remove those packages as well Sep 04 01:54:45 I would describe the situation as "something bad happened" Sep 04 01:54:56 lol Sep 04 01:55:07 yeah obviously Sep 04 01:55:11 johnx, you mean Bad Things(tm) happened Sep 04 01:55:30 ah, that is the term I was looking for Sep 04 01:55:34 wait until u get this loadavg : load average: 7258.33, 2264.42, 807.05 (tweakers.net almost highest record 10k++ Sep 04 01:55:42 xD Sep 04 01:55:49 possibly also that something has failed to "do the right thing" Sep 04 01:56:10 suggestions? Sep 04 01:56:41 does top show you anything about any process with mmc in the name? Sep 04 01:57:21 tell me how to grep in top output :-P Sep 04 01:57:23 DocScrutinizer, lsof -n | grep MyDocs Sep 04 01:57:49 and try with 'grep /home' too Sep 04 01:58:14 IroN900:~# lsof -n | grep MyDocs Sep 04 01:58:15 cp 5182 root 4w REG 179,9 75100160 10723 /home/user/MyDocs/16G/mmc1/aux-install/900808/shr-full-glibc-ipk--20090808-om-gta02.rootfs.jffs2 Sep 04 01:58:17 IroN900:~# Sep 04 01:58:31 :-S Sep 04 01:58:38 can you manage to kill -9 that cp? Sep 04 01:58:44 sure Sep 04 01:58:45 DocScrutinizer: i used --bwlimit to throttle rsync Sep 04 01:59:05 (and maybe nice, ionice) Sep 04 01:59:26 TiagoTiago_, so what happened after apt-get -f install ?? Sep 04 02:00:24 IroN900:~# ps ax|grep 5182 Sep 04 02:00:26 5182 root 4628 D cp -i -apv /media/mmc1/ /home/user/MyDocs/16G Sep 04 02:00:45 it took some time doing stuff, the xterm buffer now is filled with lines about files not found Sep 04 02:01:08 Mem: 238788K used, 6752K free, 0K shrd, 4128K buff, 109268K cached Sep 04 02:01:09 CPU: 7.5% usr 5.5% sys 0.0% nice 0.0% idle 86.9% io 0.0% irq 0.0% softirq Sep 04 02:01:12 after kill Sep 04 02:01:49 TiagoTiago, what do you mean 'doing stuff'? what did apt say it was going to do exactly? Sep 04 02:02:13 now down to 0 O Sep 04 02:02:22 0 % IO Sep 04 02:02:34 i didn't pay attention, it filled the screen with scrolling text, here's the final few lines :http://pastebin.com/s7X3cvBy Sep 04 02:02:50 Load average: 5.05 7.00 7.63 Sep 04 02:03:08 that's not been tracker! Sep 04 02:03:22 TiagoTiago_, yes because none of that shit will install because you don't HAVE python :/ wtf is wrong with apt Sep 04 02:03:27 DocScrutinizer, were you copying to emmc or a microsd card? Sep 04 02:03:30 that's been the fsckng cp which freezed whole device Sep 04 02:03:40 from uSD to eMMC Sep 04 02:04:29 Load average: 2.12 5.52 7.04 Sep 04 02:04:34 you mean µSD Sep 04 02:04:45 whenever flash is involved my first question is usually: "Could it be corrupted?" and since its flash the answer is almost always "Yes, it could." Sep 04 02:04:57 I mean ju suck Sep 04 02:05:12 i wonder how µ is normalized Sep 04 02:05:33 hmm, just µ Sep 04 02:05:35 micro? Sep 04 02:06:13 hmm, corrupted MyDocs... errrm :-/ Sep 04 02:06:38 DocScrutinizer: you still have FAT? Sep 04 02:06:40 nuttin in dmesg Sep 04 02:06:40 DocScrutinizer, are you pondering or do you see evidence? Sep 04 02:06:42 (had..) Sep 04 02:06:56 lcuk: telescope is so freaking awesome!!! Sep 04 02:06:57 cehteh: sure, default system Sep 04 02:07:21 see NO evidence whatsoever Sep 04 02:07:51 MNZ there is a python in the path somewhere (itms listed when i type py and double tap tab) Sep 04 02:08:33 TiagoTiago_, ls -ld /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages Sep 04 02:08:53 does it exist? Sep 04 02:09:30 drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Sep 3 22:53 /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages Sep 04 02:10:06 johnx: you got a uSD with some huge files on it? just do `cp -apv /media/mmc1 ~user/MyDoc/xy` (as root) Sep 04 02:10:16 sure Sep 04 02:10:22 is 600MB big enough? Sep 04 02:10:28 probably Sep 04 02:10:38 TiagoTiago, ok, wild guess but "apt-get install --reinstall python-dbus python-gobject python-pygame wifieye" Sep 04 02:10:45 I got some 3 GB, but suffering from t0+30s Sep 04 02:10:51 TiagoTiago, please look at what it says before accepting Sep 04 02:11:06 DocScrutinizer, and you think that big files are a problem while small files might not be? Sep 04 02:11:15 dunno Sep 04 02:11:27 seems it's not really related to size of files Sep 04 02:11:37 if they aren't tooooo small Sep 04 02:11:59 dumb question, but how is disk usage? Sep 04 02:12:24 http://pastebin.com/va88zQWv Sep 04 02:12:25 I copied a backup of "9" video on uSD back to eMMC, and taht for sure froze the whole thing Sep 04 02:13:01 hi Sep 04 02:13:04 On the nokia n810 does anyone know how to get rid of the black abc bar when the keyboard is open -- what use is the damn bar anyway Sep 04 02:13:12 anyone here knows what's the USB controller on the n810 ? Sep 04 02:13:12 TiagoTiago_, continue then Sep 04 02:13:18 noty bene I did all this from a root shell Sep 04 02:13:29 niceness 0 Sep 04 02:13:34 KaKaRoTo, text suggestions. turn off predictive something or other in input Sep 04 02:13:50 johnsu01, what ? Sep 04 02:14:02 oh, that was for sevard Sep 04 02:14:11 KaKaRoTo: idk but if you have a powered hub you can throw it in to host mode with USBControl Sep 04 02:14:27 ah, sorry about that. wasn't paying attention O_o; Sep 04 02:14:36 sevard, no, I mean what johnx said was meant for you :p Sep 04 02:14:39 :) Sep 04 02:14:47 MohammadAG51, there ? Sep 04 02:14:57 KaKaRoTo: i know, hopefully thats what you were looking for Sep 04 02:14:58 sevard: ORLY? Sep 04 02:15:07 DocScrutinizer: yarly Sep 04 02:15:17 sevard, no, I don't care about host mode Sep 04 02:15:21 damn Sep 04 02:15:25 damn, I wasted my time the last 8 months Sep 04 02:15:32 I just want to go play in the controller's driver, and want to know which one it is Sep 04 02:15:37 KaKaRoTo, what!? EVERYONE cares about host mode Sep 04 02:15:46 MNZ, lol, not me :p Sep 04 02:15:47 again a bunch of file does not exist fillinng up the buffer and errors processing python-dbus -gobject -pygame and wifieye again Sep 04 02:16:46 johnx: i don't see that anywhere :/ Sep 04 02:17:13 sevard: could you join h-e-n and report about your findings? Sep 04 02:17:31 hen?? Sep 04 02:17:38 I mean, nobody else made this work in a reliable way Sep 04 02:17:41 ok, i was allowed to remove wifieye, gonna try removing the other ones too and then install python agaion Sep 04 02:17:48 TiagoTiago_, frig. let me take yet another wild wild guess and ask you to "apt-get remove python-dbus python-gobject python-pygame wifieye" then "df -h" into pastebin Sep 04 02:18:03 sevard, tet-input -> languages -> settings -> unclick all the check boxes Sep 04 02:18:11 s/tet/text/g Sep 04 02:18:12 johnx meant: sevard, text-input -> languages -> settings -> unclick all the check boxes Sep 04 02:18:32 DocScrutinizer: i used to use it daily to hook my 20gb ipod straight to my n810 for movie storage or my targus multicard reader for cf or sd card reading/writing Sep 04 02:18:41 sevard: did you use MohammadAG51 's patches, or did you ground ID pin? or did you use egoshin's method? Sep 04 02:19:01 sevard, https://garage.maemo.org/projects/h-e-n Sep 04 02:19:02 pfrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt :-P Sep 04 02:19:10 DocScrutinizer: none, USBControl and a battery poweered hub Sep 04 02:19:37 DocScrutinizer, wrong device. :P Sep 04 02:19:43 yeah, on my laptop I don't even need USBcontrol - it works ootb Sep 04 02:19:58 XD Sep 04 02:20:46 johnx: yaayy!!! that was very non intuitave. thanks dude :D Sep 04 02:20:53 not a problem :) Sep 04 02:20:54 does anyone know if it's possible to install the DIABLO SDK on the latest scratchbox (installed from the maemo 5 sdk installer) Sep 04 02:21:21 DocScrutinizer: do you want the make and model of usb hub i use? Sep 04 02:21:43 not really, thanks dude Sep 04 02:21:50 lol Sep 04 02:22:09 Model of hub is unfortunately not really helpful at all Sep 04 02:22:21 also - n810 is not interesting at all Sep 04 02:22:36 SpeedEvil: forget it, a troll claiming N810 can actually do hostmode Sep 04 02:22:53 DocScrutinizer, WTF are you on about? Sep 04 02:22:57 why? you can throw it in host mode and upload your pictures or play a movie on a car ride fro your ipod Sep 04 02:23:06 dude what Sep 04 02:23:13 do you want pictures... Sep 04 02:23:26 I though n810 'just worked' Sep 04 02:23:29 sevard: really exciting news Sep 04 02:23:30 Modulo no power Sep 04 02:23:44 DocScrutinizer, we've had host on the N8x0 for *2 years* Sep 04 02:23:47 SpeedEvil: N810 has powe Sep 04 02:23:50 oh Sep 04 02:23:52 n810 doesn?t just work you need usbcontrol to throw it into nost mode Sep 04 02:23:58 lol Sep 04 02:24:02 rjome too Sep 04 02:24:06 That is just working. Sep 04 02:24:11 johnx: me too me too me too Sep 04 02:24:18 From the POV of the complexity of getting it working right on n900. Sep 04 02:24:25 SpeedEvil: you also need a powered hub Sep 04 02:24:32 DocScrutinizer, then why did you call him a troll? i"m like, totally lost ... Sep 04 02:24:36 sevard: nope you don't Sep 04 02:24:46 johnx: no idea Sep 04 02:25:02 * DocScrutinizer yaaaaawns, sorry to lame Sep 04 02:25:16 DocScrutinizer: a client mode devide doesn't provide power on the line. you need a powered hub. Sep 04 02:25:29 do you want a fucking video what are you on about Sep 04 02:25:34 TiagoTiago_, did your device just die or what :D ? Sep 04 02:25:38 anybody thinking of N810 hostmode as a new exciting thing is a troll in my book Sep 04 02:25:46 the N8x0 is happy to supply 100mA (or 200mA) which is often enough to run a lower power device, like a keyboard or usb stick Sep 04 02:26:04 esp when posting "I got hostmode" while not mentioning "on N810" Sep 04 02:26:07 MNZ check this http://pastebin.com/pQbQhLHN Sep 04 02:26:12 johnx: that's really interesting, i thought no power was provided Sep 04 02:26:34 DocScrutinizer, no. the n810 was the topic from the beginning. you missed it, then called him a troll Sep 04 02:26:43 sevard: tried USBcontrol on N900?? Sep 04 02:26:54 DocScrutinizer: i _only_ have an n810< don?t blame me if you can?t keep up on the conversation Sep 04 02:27:00 this is the maemo channel, not the N900 channel, after all Sep 04 02:27:16 heh. Sep 04 02:27:28 bah Sep 04 02:27:36 TiagoTiago, yes we already established that it thinks it has python. But just in case, --reinstall python2.5 python2.5-minimal, then install python-pygame and see what happens Sep 04 02:27:42 TiagoTiago_, Sep 04 02:28:18 ok Sep 04 02:29:15 tbh I got other more hurting problems than N810 hostmode Sep 04 02:29:26 DocScrutinizer, ok Sep 04 02:30:02 N810 hostmode isn't worth talking about, it 'just works' Sep 04 02:30:19 oookaaayyy Sep 04 02:30:52 johnx: telescope is a w e s o m e Sep 04 02:31:06 sevard, yeah saw the youtube clip Sep 04 02:31:16 I'll have to bust my N800 out and play with it :D Sep 04 02:31:28 johnx: having not picked this thing up for a year anything else i should know about? Sep 04 02:31:34 this blows me away Sep 04 02:31:45 :) Sep 04 02:31:46 I haven't picked it up in that long either <_< Sep 04 02:31:54 haha damn Sep 04 02:33:03 and what's even more disgusting and boring, we can't use the way it works on N810, for N900 Sep 04 02:33:50 great. let's have another argument about how much we miss N8x0 features Sep 04 02:33:56 i have to ask, are you drunk? Sep 04 02:34:02 MNz heres the output http://pastebin.com/M5wzg8GN Sep 04 02:34:41 johnx: so i shoudln?t be jealous of the 900? i was thinking about selling and upgrading Sep 04 02:34:47 TiagoTiago_, you don't have to pastebin things that go by the book :D Sep 04 02:35:21 lolcat, ok Sep 04 02:35:49 sevard, it's nice in so many ways. but some people nitpick every little thing Sep 04 02:36:04 haha Sep 04 02:36:07 now what i was supposed to install again? Sep 04 02:36:09 i see Sep 04 02:36:28 like "why is there no d-pad?" or "I liked the N810 keyboard more" or "why is the screen smaller?" Sep 04 02:36:28 TiagoTiago_, try python-pygame, it should install cleanly. Sep 04 02:36:44 lol Sep 04 02:36:57 who's missing N910 features Sep 04 02:37:03 nooo it's too pretty it has too many graaaphics Sep 04 02:37:07 810 Sep 04 02:37:24 DocScrutinizer, you are. you were just complaining about host mode ... Sep 04 02:37:27 johnx, sevard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlxr8t1nZM Sep 04 02:37:46 couldn@t find package pygame, do you remember if it had caps somewhere? Sep 04 02:37:59 waaah, a completely different kbd feeling :-) Sep 04 02:38:03 TiagoTiago, python-pygame Sep 04 02:38:14 ah, right, ok Sep 04 02:38:34 johnx: I??? complaining? Sep 04 02:39:29 only thing I'm maybe complainingnbout is the lack of GSM in N810 Sep 04 02:39:30 MNZ, classic :) Sep 04 02:40:05 MNZ: for some reason mytube won't play that. what is it? Sep 04 02:40:11 ok, that one went well as well Sep 04 02:40:20 and the very different kbds, it is irritating after months of N900 Sep 04 02:40:52 and it collected dust :-P Sep 04 02:41:28 TiagoTiago_, congrats. now check for pymaemo mounts, and it probably won't be there (unless it was pulled in again by python). What that means is you now have an un-optified python, that is, your python install is in roofs not opt Sep 04 02:41:37 DocScrutinizer: /wrists Sep 04 02:41:38 sevard, it's the xphone :D latest gadgetry Sep 04 02:41:39 what else should i install to restore python to the proper state? Sep 04 02:41:41 ok Sep 04 02:42:02 wut? Sep 04 02:42:09 mnz ill save it for the laptop later :) Sep 04 02:42:15 hm, its mentionning opt there Sep 04 02:42:22 sevard, also happens to be fully backwards compatible :D you just have to see the vid Sep 04 02:42:28 oooo Sep 04 02:42:47 TiagoTiago_, yeah, opt has to be in there, but is there any pymaemo? Sep 04 02:44:39 yep Sep 04 02:45:23 MNZ: that. looks. so. damn. hot. lol. Sep 04 02:45:26 DocScrutinizer, well you are right. copies to the emmc are insanely slow Sep 04 02:45:38 yep Sep 04 02:46:13 and yes, the UI is really unresponsive Sep 04 02:46:16 I despise IO on the N900. Sep 04 02:46:16 hould i try to install the python optify package (i forgott the name) ? Sep 04 02:46:45 TiagoTiago_, yeah I just checked, it's unavoidable. pymaemo-optify is a dependancy of python2.5-minimal. in other words, you have to have python optified Sep 04 02:47:05 Edit the control file. Sep 04 02:47:05 so it's already here? Sep 04 02:47:21 in other words, you picked a very wrong package to move to mydocs because this one does a whole bunch of wicked mounting and linking besides the 'normal' optification Sep 04 02:47:51 in other words, don't attempt moving pymaemo from opt again or Very Bad Things(tm) will happen, again. Sep 04 02:48:13 If I get up now I can actually sleep before it's 5 am for a change :D Sep 04 02:49:10 yeah, that was stupid, thanx for all the help, you saved the day :) Sep 04 02:49:16 rest well :) Sep 04 02:49:17 anywho TiagoTiago_ now you know just how messed up the optification system is, it's best not to mess with it :D Sep 04 02:49:33 heh Sep 04 02:49:38 good night folks! Sep 04 02:49:51 'night MNZ Sep 04 02:51:27 now, back to trying to find stuff that can be safelly relocated to MyDocs Sep 04 02:51:46 DocScrutinizer, great. and my IO stayed close to 100% after I killed the transfer, but it went away quickly after that Sep 04 02:51:59 TiagoTiago_: What? Sep 04 02:52:21 i' trying to free as much space as possible in rootfs and /opt Sep 04 02:52:25 johnx: flashing buffers I guess Sep 04 02:53:02 TiagoTiago, It's cool to hack around with this stuff, but you have to realize that what you're doing is *highly* likely to cause exactly the same problem you just had Sep 04 02:53:27 anyway stskeeps asked me about same problem Sep 04 02:53:39 lolcat, yeah, it was dumb to move that folder without being completly sure it was safe Sep 04 02:53:48 lol* Sep 04 02:53:56 DocScrutinizer, did you have tracker killed when you did the move? Sep 04 02:54:02 seems meego also suffering from general szstem freeze on IO Sep 04 02:54:05 erm, how did i autocomplete? O.o Sep 04 02:54:21 nope there never was any tracker Sep 04 02:54:38 and moves the other way are fine, right? Sep 04 02:55:09 seems yes, as I did a full backup of eMMC to uSD Sep 04 02:55:20 without noticing such shit Sep 04 02:56:12 yeah, just copied '9.mp4' to microsd. no 30% IO time and responsive the whole time Sep 04 02:56:25 wonder if it's swap related nevertheless Sep 04 02:56:42 I could reboot, swapoff and see what happens Sep 04 02:56:45 yep Sep 04 02:56:50 does anyone else somtimes have this issue where over and over again you try to click on an icon near the border of the scfeen and misses going back to the previous level? Sep 04 02:57:16 TiagoTiago_, you're the only one who ever had that problem, ever :P Sep 04 02:57:32 lol **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Sep 04 02:59:57 2010