**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Sep 04 02:59:57 2010 Sep 04 03:00:21 TiagoTiago_: I have no idea what you are talking about. Why did you higligth me earlier? Sep 04 03:00:26 what in the /opt/var folder makes it not compatible with being moved to MyDocs? Sep 04 03:00:49 dunno, sorry, i didn't even saw the autocomplete happening Sep 04 03:02:39 DocScrutinizer, yeah, contention with swap Sep 04 03:02:58 with swap off I get good transfer speeds, but I don't have enough free RAM to ssh in Sep 04 03:02:58 DUH :-/ Sep 04 03:03:32 let's call it a fundamental bug Sep 04 03:03:46 solution: lower swappiness Sep 04 03:03:58 tested? Sep 04 03:04:06 testing on swappiness on 1 Sep 04 03:04:09 what should I run? Sep 04 03:04:27 how about ... Maps *laughs evilly* Sep 04 03:04:29 a cp? Sep 04 03:04:54 running an rsync with --progress and starting the nokia 'maps' app Sep 04 03:05:39 is there somewhere a list of what needs to be in/opt and what can go to MyDocs that is up to date with p1.2? Sep 04 03:05:48 TiagoTiago_, no Sep 04 03:06:00 :( Sep 04 03:06:10 johnx: compcache Sep 04 03:06:11 you should experiment and make one Sep 04 03:06:21 set swappiness to 0 Sep 04 03:06:22 or just lower swappiness ... Sep 04 03:06:26 I set it to 1 Sep 04 03:06:46 and btw never ever set vfs_cache_pressure to 0 :) Sep 04 03:06:50 what about some guidelines to decide what can go and what must stay? Sep 04 03:07:44 TiagoTiago_, anything needed before MyDocs is mounted, anything that relies on permissions, anything that involves a symlink or hardlink <- things not to put in MyDocs Sep 04 03:08:14 * johnx spoke too soon Sep 04 03:08:16 any easy way to check for each of those conditions? Sep 04 03:08:32 TiagoTiago_, nope. you could write yourself a script, to check for some Sep 04 03:08:36 try and see :) Sep 04 03:08:45 johnx: ok, don't miss to mention'joerg_rw kicked the bug's ass so now it awake and roaring' when filing your ticket. gnite Sep 04 03:09:20 DocScrutinizer, huh? Sep 04 03:09:47 me out, have fun Sep 04 03:09:59 i don't know how to script (yet) Sep 04 03:10:22 TiagoTiago, this is what I learned with: http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/ Sep 04 03:10:34 some of it is bash specific, but it generally applies to sh Sep 04 03:11:27 advanced bash scribting? hehe, its a good one Sep 04 03:11:59 thanx Sep 04 03:13:46 though url looks strange Sep 04 03:14:18 Also. Sep 04 03:14:21 More importantly. Sep 04 03:14:40 ? Sep 04 03:14:45 MyDocs gets unmounted when you plug it into PC and select 'ass rage' mode. Sep 04 03:14:58 This means that the files go away randomly, whihc may upset some things. Sep 04 03:15:01 SpeedEvil: LOLOLO Sep 04 03:15:03 mass storage Sep 04 03:15:06 sigh Sep 04 03:15:13 home/jr/Desktop/downloads/abs-guide.pdf mmm..k Sep 04 03:15:14 I should look a tthe screen mode Sep 04 03:15:20 screen more Sep 04 03:15:39 SpeedEvil: wait, you didn't mean to write "ass rage"? Sep 04 03:15:53 lol Sep 04 03:15:53 you don't misspell something like "ass rage", come on Sep 04 03:16:07 Its not misspelling. Sep 04 03:16:08 actually, if you have important system-level stuff in MyDocs it would pretty much be correct to label it ass rage mode Sep 04 03:16:13 mistyping Sep 04 03:16:14 whatever Sep 04 03:16:15 My keyboard occasionally misses letters. Sep 04 03:16:24 sure ;) Sep 04 03:16:35 i know how tha is Sep 04 03:16:56 keyboards don't miss letters Sep 04 03:17:00 people who use keyboards miss letters Sep 04 03:17:03 Mine does. Sep 04 03:17:26 I am unsure why it does it - it may be the $2 USB to PS2 adaprtor Sep 04 03:17:35 * johnx kinda wants to make a proper US English localization uses a few more slang words to make the younger generation feel comfortable using it. Mass Storage -> Ass Rage would be a good start Sep 04 03:17:37 nah, can't be that Sep 04 03:17:57 it's "backwards compatible" and everything, isn't it Sep 04 03:17:58 * DocScrutinizer idly wonders how long a pkg from UK to D will take, esp when some old keys are inside :-P Sep 04 03:18:05 somtimes if you type too fast in the N900 that happens Sep 04 03:18:14 (also, what keyboard are you using?) Sep 04 03:24:13 me? the physical Sep 04 04:24:25 so how is qmfmail? Sep 04 04:25:40 who's mother? Sep 04 04:29:02 whose* Sep 04 04:29:23 ok Sep 04 04:29:47 hey, is the image for the n800 and the n810 the same ? Sep 04 04:30:05 I got the kernel source for diablo, and there' sonly 'n800_defconfig', there is no 'n810_defconfig' Sep 04 04:30:08 KaKaRoTo: … are you asking what I think you're asking? Sep 04 04:30:12 oh Sep 04 04:30:17 thought you said n900 and n810 Sep 04 04:30:25 no, n800/n810 Sep 04 04:30:30 isn't it n8x0_defconfig? Sep 04 04:30:33 it's +/- the same hardware, so maybe yes Sep 04 04:31:47 humm... I just apt-get source the kernel-source-diablo.... the debian/rules file has : DEFCONFIG := nokia_2420_defconfig Sep 04 04:34:26 KaKaRoTo: just emerge diablo-sources :D Sep 04 04:34:45 emerge? :p Sep 04 04:36:29 * luke-jr runs Gentoo on his N810 Sep 04 04:36:30 use kernel-headers for diablo Sep 04 04:36:34 compile against that Sep 04 04:36:49 MohammadAG51: he obviously wants to compile a kernel Sep 04 05:07:58 So I've installed the real xterm. How could I get the ctrl,esc,tab,pipe-on-screen-keyboard thingy there as well? It's kind of hard to do anything useful without it. Or should I juts remap some other keys with xbindkeys or whatever? Sep 04 05:08:13 is there an easy way to make xchat easier on the eyes than its default config? Sep 04 05:08:41 Yeah - edit the config Sep 04 05:08:48 lol Sep 04 05:09:30 i couldn't figure out how to gwt my owntext to not be hard to read :/ Sep 04 05:10:21 i have edited my shit to no end its a color scheme problem! Sep 04 05:10:50 also, xchat isn't completly hildonized, there some intwerface things that would be much easier to use if they shared the approaches sused in Hildon Sep 04 05:11:25 just use irssi guys Sep 04 05:11:39 lol Sep 04 05:12:08 I sure hope Nokia is going to do the only sane thing with Harmattan and abolish the whole concept of "hildonizing" Sep 04 05:12:32 there's no reason software should need to be ported to get the same interaction Maemo had Sep 04 05:12:41 its not that bad now Sep 04 05:13:45 is fmms worthwhile or should i just say fuckit to mms? Sep 04 05:14:04 programs made for deaktop mouse and keyboard with big screens do need some adaptations to work confortably in a device like the N900 Sep 04 05:18:09 though perhps it could be possible to have special versions of the all the windowing and interface toolkits thatwhen programs would call for the diffwerent interface elementds the equivalent that uses the approaches suited to the N900 would be used instead, transparently to the programs (kinda like interface elements in webpages loaded in microB Sep 04 05:18:17 gspring: it doesn't work at all for me Sep 04 05:18:27 TiagoTiago: no, they don't. Sep 04 05:20:29 what doesn't what? Sep 04 05:20:55 they don't need adaptations Sep 04 05:21:57 there should be a repo of "hildonized", and a complete repo of everything as it is. Sep 04 05:22:03 Slightly harder to use, but all there. Sep 04 05:22:56 having to reach for a tiny scrollbar to scroll sucks, and even though it's tiny to click on it still consumes way too much valuable screen realstate Sep 04 05:23:03 there's no reason Qt couldn't throw a smooth finger-scroll interface on widgets instead of a scrollbar by default Sep 04 05:23:14 yeah Sep 04 05:23:23 there's no rule saying the program can expect a scrollbar Sep 04 05:23:26 Just something with a bit of code to autmatically convert interface elements on-the-fly Sep 04 05:23:50 that would be great Sep 04 05:24:35 Nokia *owns* QT now. Wouldn't be a problem for them. Sep 04 05:24:54 even if they didn't, it wouldn't be Sep 04 05:24:59 yeah Sep 04 05:25:54 btw, hey luke-jr. Still haven't gotten gentoo up and running. Can't seem to get internet to work anymore in the gentoo chroot on the tablet. Sep 04 05:26:17 delirus: that'd be resolv.conf… Sep 04 05:26:28 just set nameserver to 127.0.0.1 Sep 04 05:27:02 5 packages away from finishing the n900-env install (with all useflags enabled) :\ Sep 04 05:27:19 I copy resolv.conf before every chroot Sep 04 05:27:29 why so slow? O.o Sep 04 05:27:32 I just got bad wifi for some reason when I chroot Sep 04 05:27:32 :\ Sep 04 05:27:43 it works half the time at 1kbps, for about a minute Sep 04 05:27:45 then stops Sep 04 05:27:49 crap, another random reboot Sep 04 05:28:13 is there a log file somewhere that might contain rhe reason for ther reboot? Sep 04 05:28:27 mtd2 Sep 04 05:28:46 ? Sep 04 05:35:43 hrm Sep 04 05:35:51 could be the time of day I'm trying to work on it.... Sep 04 05:36:12 I have a feeling there's more wifi interference at some times than others Sep 04 05:36:31 pick a less busy channel? Sep 04 05:50:31 damn router keeps needing to be hard rebooted Sep 04 05:52:02 hi Sep 04 05:53:22 is there anyone available? Sep 04 05:55:21 hi, i'm here, but i dunno if i'll know how to help Sep 04 06:32:20 hello could someone tell me which one is developed fast ? Maemo or android ? Sep 04 06:32:44 uh? Sep 04 06:32:46 fast? Sep 04 06:35:57 i mean faster of updating or releasing something new .... Sep 04 06:37:35 MyNickIsNick: that's subjective and impossible to answer. Sep 04 06:38:13 if he means updates to the platform itself (and not applications), it's kind of an obvious answer Sep 04 06:38:48 MyNickIsNick: why do you want to know? Sep 04 06:38:51 maemo being discontinued, and while the potential exists for another bugfix update to maemo 5 (which is widely believed to be unlikely), there will be no maemo 6 Sep 04 06:39:37 but maemo isn't being sued by oracle... :P Sep 04 06:39:58 id like to use one of them to be developed custom for my project ... Sep 04 06:40:01 okay. but which one is more "open" to be developed ? Sep 04 06:40:38 uh, that's not a simple answer... both are "open source, kinda" Sep 04 06:41:06 more simply put: android uses java, and a custom gui toolkit Sep 04 06:41:13 maemo uses gtk or qt Sep 04 06:41:46 if your intent is to quickly develop an application, go with what you know... if what you know is java, maemo is not a good choice Sep 04 06:42:03 for beginner which one is more easy to be developed and have better sdk ? Sep 04 06:42:24 android is probably better if you want a big user base quickly. Sep 04 06:42:36 maemo/meego user base is very limited. Sep 04 06:42:58 if you're just learning how to program, a phone may not be the best target platform Sep 04 06:45:30 i have better programming experiences on assembly and c, c++ Sep 04 06:46:14 i need to develop on small platform but will need data communication over wifi and broadband network extensively Sep 04 06:49:49 heya, anyone can tell me wich package is reponsible for the sip-configuration-dialog? i'm missing the use for phone calls option there (pr1.2 running here) Sep 04 07:02:10 cfreak200, is sip-configuration-dialog the name of the binary or your description of it? Sep 04 07:03:50 hi, is there a tutorial how to stream data through BT? Sep 04 07:04:11 I want to sent accelerometer readings to my laptop through BT Sep 04 07:04:20 with cookies and cake Sep 04 07:04:43 johnx: my description i mean the dialog to configure sip Sep 04 07:05:26 johnx: my main problem is that i cant receive sip calls (instat marked as missed) and cant call out with it.. Sep 04 07:06:28 cfreak200, I don't use SIP. Do you mean the VoIP and IM accounts dialog or something else? Sep 04 07:06:38 voip and im Sep 04 07:07:38 i was told (few days ago in here) there should be a paramter to activate it for phone calls but i'm missing it... Sep 04 07:08:01 * johnx tries to find the package, n900 being finicky about letting me ssh in ... Sep 04 07:09:09 i think its telepathy-sofiasip but theres only 1 version available and i'm using that so maybe its something else.. Sep 04 07:09:31 ah, I don't think you'd have uninstalled it without realizing it Sep 04 07:10:47 its insatlled ofc.. Sep 04 07:13:42 you could pull out gconftool and start digging through settings *shrugs* Sep 04 07:18:19 johnx: mhm ok, breakfast first and via ssh typing that much on the n900 is still a pain ;) Sep 04 07:18:26 but thanks anyway Sep 04 07:18:48 good luck Sep 04 07:23:46 DocScrutinizer: did you figure out what was causing the massive slowdowns in I/O? Sep 04 07:24:09 kerio, if he did , he didn't tell me Sep 04 07:24:22 :( Sep 04 07:24:23 I was looking into it as well, and managed to repro even with swappiness turned way down Sep 04 07:24:35 that's not a good thing Sep 04 07:24:44 luckily i don't have a µSD Sep 04 07:24:45 :D Sep 04 07:25:06 though actually I *can* tell you what was causing it: swapping was having contention issues with I/O to the emmc card Sep 04 07:26:02 isn't swap on the internal flash? Sep 04 07:27:16 i still don't get why we have 256mb instead of at least 512 Sep 04 07:28:14 kerio, because an OMAP3 package with 512MB wasn't available early enough in the design process Sep 04 07:28:22 and swap is on the emmc Sep 04 07:31:11 pfft Sep 04 07:31:42 if a novice (OpenPandora) can pull off a RAM upgrade, Nokia should have no problem :P Sep 04 07:33:34 luke-jr, uhm, you missed something Sep 04 07:33:53 johnx: of course Sep 04 07:33:58 Nokia has ship dates :P Sep 04 07:34:46 anyone seen my other SD card lying around? (these things are too easy to lose) Sep 04 07:47:59 johnx: you got a hint for me where within gconf i should search a gconftool-2 -r / | grep sip only shows me the url-handler entries.. Sep 04 07:55:13 Ok, I 'managed' to get ratpoison in my n900... by cheating :p Sep 04 07:57:38 <__a> just woke up to read about the n900 ps3 hack.. how awsome is that!?! :D Sep 04 07:58:11 Use the n900 for playing PS3 games? :p Sep 04 07:58:26 <__a> hack the ps3 to play backups Sep 04 07:58:29 <__a> using the n900 Sep 04 07:58:41 :O Sep 04 07:59:02 Ok, I'm probably to old since I didnt get that excited. Sep 04 07:59:39 heh, "backups" Sep 04 07:59:55 <__a> its cool because the ps3 security has been rock solid until now Sep 04 08:00:05 what? Sep 04 08:00:10 scp1, it's kind of fun news because sony was worried that by letting people run linux on the PS3 they would expose the console to potential hacks Sep 04 08:00:13 I thought it was cracked years ago :o Sep 04 08:00:31 <__a> scp1 no, the first mod chip just came out Sep 04 08:00:33 and then they stopped allowing linux on the PS3 and within months it gets hacked Sep 04 08:00:43 fantastic timing Sep 04 08:00:46 <__a> and the mod chip software has ben "ported" to the n900 Sep 04 08:00:49 johnx, Yeah. I actually was going to buy one, just for running linux on it. Then they stopped making that possible. :| Sep 04 08:00:50 I hope that sends the right message to sony Sep 04 08:01:10 <__a> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=61669 Sep 04 08:01:25 Now I see why you were excited :) Sep 04 08:03:10 <__a> i havent been able to play anything yet tho.. the backup manager is slooow Sep 04 08:03:27 the best part is that sony was worried that linux would be a factor in the PS3 hack, it was just that things went in the opposite direction from what they thought Sep 04 08:04:57 <__a> what is the exploit exactly? only read that the usb device must be able to act as usb slave.. Sep 04 08:10:01 when I plug the n900 into the eeepc with usb, how do I get the main n900 filesystem to show? At the moment only the additional SD card shows up Sep 04 08:11:00 does it say anything on the n900 screen? Sep 04 08:11:34 usually it's because there's a file open somewhere in the MyDocs folder Sep 04 08:11:46 and, ultimately, how do I get ssh to work over the usb, so that I can "work" the N900 from the keyboard of the laptop Sep 04 08:12:05 johnx: do I have to close everything in thee n900 first? Sep 04 08:12:32 well, generally it should Do the Right Thing (tm), but if it's not working try closing stuff Sep 04 08:13:06 also, is there a reason ssh over wifi isn't working for you? why usb? Sep 04 08:15:30 johnx: ok - I closed everything and now get a filesystem including cities, DCIM, Mac OS and autorun.inf Sep 04 08:15:46 yup, that's as much access as you get Sep 04 08:15:47 but not the root filesystem of the n900 Sep 04 08:15:54 bugger :( Sep 04 08:16:02 so I can actually do anything useful ? Sep 04 08:16:14 copy stuff onto the device? Sep 04 08:16:49 I amtrying to make the n900 into something useful, but having a kbd that I can actually type on ;) Sep 04 08:16:50 uhm, two machines (generally) can't have the same fs mounted at the same time unless both have it mounted read-only Sep 04 08:17:15 hence the need to ssh into the n900 - preferably over usb Sep 04 08:17:15 do you have wifi where you are? Sep 04 08:17:31 wifi here is complicated Sep 04 08:18:16 I think getting sshd to listen on the USB will be more complicated :) Sep 04 08:18:32 only one device per username/pwd combo - it's a webpage login wifi service Sep 04 08:18:59 uhm...this is at home? Sep 04 08:19:03 which works fine, but only with either the eeepc or the n900 -- not both Sep 04 08:19:11 Home? Sep 04 08:19:33 I mean, is this your wifi system? or a public one? or the one at work or university? Sep 04 08:19:34 it's where I live at the moment, if you call that home;) Sep 04 08:19:52 it's teh wifi in an apartment block Sep 04 08:20:01 * jpinx-eeepc is in Bangkok Sep 04 08:20:03 auc Sep 04 08:20:08 public unencrypted wifi Sep 04 08:20:23 jacekowski: yea - cool :) Sep 04 08:20:40 jpinx-eeepc, aaaah, makes more sense now Sep 04 08:20:42 which is why I want to do the ssh by usb cable ;) Sep 04 08:20:52 I thought that *you* were the one who set the wifi up that way Sep 04 08:21:02 hell no :) Sep 04 08:21:13 yeah, hence my confusion Sep 04 08:21:43 uhm, so the first thing to do is get hooked up over usb and make sure you can ping back and forth Sep 04 08:21:49 so I would like to get ssh over usb to work from the eeepc Sep 04 08:22:16 then you *may* need to find a way to make sshd restart when you bring up the usb interface on the N900 Sep 04 08:22:19 I'm all plugged in, but the N900 offers me PCSuite of Mass Storage only Sep 04 08:22:39 *or Sep 04 08:23:19 as mass storage I can see the filesystems in the eeepc, so the connection is good for that Sep 04 08:24:00 PC suite means "usb ethernet and some other stuff" Sep 04 08:24:30 johnx: yea- I used to have nokia's PCSuite for an older phone Sep 04 08:24:41 but it was for windows Sep 04 08:25:22 right, so select pc suite mode, ubuntu should see it as a network adapter Sep 04 08:25:30 I have root in a shell on the n900 Sep 04 08:25:37 you can also do file transfers over pcsuite via ssh but its not as stable.. you can also use host PC's internet or vice versa use n900 as wireless broadband Sep 04 08:25:48 and obviously I have root in my DEBIAN eeepc ;) Sep 04 08:25:58 aaaah, not ubuntu Sep 04 08:26:31 in that case, pc suite on the n900, look at the ip addr on the n900, then ifconfig on the debian box and pick an addr in the same subnet Sep 04 08:26:49 if it works, put it in network/interfaces and make sure it says auto-hotplug or whatever it is Sep 04 08:26:51 * johnx forgets Sep 04 08:26:54 where's the IP address to be found in the n900 Sep 04 08:27:02 /sbin/ifconfig usb0 Sep 04 08:27:07 k Sep 04 08:29:14 Hmmm - usb0 has no IP address - just a MAC Sep 04 08:29:54 and you definitely hit "PC Suite" when plugging it in? Sep 04 08:30:03 yep Sep 04 08:30:09 huh Sep 04 08:30:11 * jpinx-eeepc unplugs and retries Sep 04 08:30:18 hrm Sep 04 08:30:24 I can do ssh over usb with pc-suite Sep 04 08:30:36 But I dunno how to get internet working over it Sep 04 08:30:52 nope - same again - no IP Sep 04 08:31:23 and usb1 correctly says device not found Sep 04 08:31:33 http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking Sep 04 08:32:45 thanks psycho_oreos - I'll go and read more :) Sep 04 08:32:59 huh. why did it work for me without the ifup ... ? Sep 04 08:33:13 weird Sep 04 08:33:48 for mine I had to follow that exact guide to get it working but then again USB networking allows n900 to use host's connection Sep 04 08:34:05 not on mine Sep 04 08:34:17 hm Sep 04 08:36:37 ok - how do I get it top not use a capitol letter when I am typing a command in a terminal? Sep 04 08:36:47 damn predictive text thing Sep 04 08:37:26 its in the settings Sep 04 08:37:43 something like text inputs Sep 04 08:37:52 johnx: ifup usb0 on mine gives command not found Sep 04 08:38:00 as root Sep 04 08:38:07 or is everything /sbin/ ? Sep 04 08:38:11 yes - I am root Sep 04 08:38:25 errr, that's weird then Sep 04 08:38:51 using rootsh or something else? Sep 04 08:39:36 typing /sbin/ifup usb0 (while plugged in) gives me ifconfig not found and route not found :( Sep 04 08:39:51 jpinx-eeepc: type "id" Sep 04 08:39:54 using rootsh and typing "root"! Sep 04 08:39:57 and tell us what is says Sep 04 08:40:58 uid=29999(user) gid=29999(users) Sep 04 08:41:08 then you're not root, and that's the problem :) Sep 04 08:41:29 there must be a timeout in rootsh? Sep 04 08:41:45 there isn't a timeout in rootsh Sep 04 08:43:12 ok ok ifup worked and I have an IP Sep 04 08:43:24 yay! Sep 04 08:43:42 :) Sep 04 08:44:00 ssh from the eeepc to ???@ 192.168.2.15 ? Sep 04 08:44:07 what user? Sep 04 08:44:08 even a ping would work Sep 04 08:44:13 root Sep 04 08:44:14 jpinx-eeepc, did you setup the connection on your eeepc yet? Sep 04 08:44:17 sudo gainroot Sep 04 08:44:33 jacekowski: "root" is a script that does that Sep 04 08:44:47 and it is a *massive* security hole :< Sep 04 08:44:53 can you set the password for the user user? Sep 04 08:45:13 kerio: it's not that much of a security hole, as the user account has privs to do most anything anyway Sep 04 08:45:20 silly penguins. I set mine up so i can use sudo for commands Sep 04 08:45:43 as user, i can do things like access all of the stored messages, query the IMSI, etc Sep 04 08:46:05 but... root Sep 04 08:46:07 :< Sep 04 08:46:16 who cares about some stupid messages Sep 04 08:46:19 we're talking about superuser Sep 04 08:46:22 :P Sep 04 08:46:24 Hmm - not sure how to activate the usb connection in debian Sep 04 08:46:44 kerio, dude. user has permission to use app manger, which installs packages as root ... Sep 04 08:46:48 jpinx-eeepc: do you have networkmanager on the eeepc? Sep 04 08:46:56 jpinx-eeepc, ifconfig -a on your debian box? Sep 04 08:47:02 delirus: nope Sep 04 08:47:48 "ifconfig usb0 192.168.2.14" as root will do it Sep 04 08:47:59 if it says usb0 isn't found, then you've got some fun stuff ahead of you Sep 04 08:48:13 found usb0 and usbpn0 Sep 04 08:48:15 (while the phone is plugged in, and "pc suite mode" is selected) Sep 04 08:48:56 yay Sep 04 08:49:21 cool -- looks like ifconfig with the IP address did it Sep 04 08:50:09 ssh to root wants a password? Sep 04 08:50:20 as a warning, "ifup usb0" on the n900 modifies your default route to point to 192.168.2.14 -- so unless you're running some sort of nat or route on your computer (and i'll bet $20 you're not), your n900 is no longer online right now Sep 04 08:50:27 import hildon is not working in my python,what should i do,i got the nokia n900 desktop working. Sep 04 08:50:36 ieatlint: huh? Sep 04 08:50:37 what's the default password for roott? Sep 04 08:50:45 didn't work like that for me :| Sep 04 08:50:50 kerio: unless this has changed, it sets your default route to point to your desktop Sep 04 08:51:09 anyone knows how to get the import hildon workin in pythonm Sep 04 08:51:12 python Sep 04 08:51:26 jpinx-eeepc, no default password. change it with the passwd command as root Sep 04 08:51:39 or ssh in as user like everyone else does Sep 04 08:51:52 My n900 suddenly wont boot. It is stuck on the dots (but the dots doesnt freeze, they just keep blinking). I set the RD flag with flasher, and when booting it says "no initfs \o/". What is the best course of action from here? I had the newest PR release with kernel-power. Sep 04 08:52:08 I have no passwords set on my n900 Sep 04 08:52:21 mreggen: no initfs \o/ Sep 04 08:52:28 it's happy Sep 04 08:52:40 kerio: yup, how the hell can the initfs suddenly disappear? Sep 04 08:52:45 no idea Sep 04 08:52:48 what did you do? Sep 04 08:52:49 mreggen, flash default kernel and initfs? Sep 04 08:52:56 I was think \o/ was more of a scream :P Sep 04 08:53:04 any one knows coding in python Sep 04 08:53:16 bince: sure, a lot of people do Sep 04 08:53:37 bince: i'm still working on VB, but i can't seem to get it to run on my n900 :( Sep 04 08:53:39 so first off, what do you mean by "not working" Sep 04 08:53:51 ^bince^ Sep 04 08:54:07 vb? Sep 04 08:54:32 johnx: so just reflash the standard 1.2 image and initfs should come back? no need to touch the eMMC? Sep 04 08:54:52 johnx:import hildon is returning error,sayin that header is not found in python. Sep 04 08:55:00 mreggen, I would recommend just the kernel and initfs first. it's worth a shot Sep 04 08:55:12 johnx: ssh connect to root at n900ip is refused Sep 04 08:55:16 so how can i get the hildon working inside python Sep 04 08:55:18 bince, are you following a guide? Sep 04 08:55:46 jpinx-eeepc, restart ssh on the n900 (like I mentioned earlier :) ) Sep 04 08:55:54 johnx:nope,i used the gui installer for maemo sdk,and that i got its installed Sep 04 08:56:19 johnx: is "and initfs" something more than flashing with flasher-3.5 -F -f -R ? Sep 04 08:57:02 mreggen, when you flash that way you flash the bootloader(s), kernel, initfs and rootfs Sep 04 08:57:11 ok, thanks Sep 04 08:57:18 johnx:http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/Developing_Python_Applications_for_Maemo then i used this website to start python coding for maemo Sep 04 08:57:21 johnx: not accoring to my lastlog;) how does one restart stuff in Maemo? Sep 04 08:57:24 mreggen, so this is flashing *less* Sep 04 08:57:42 jpinx-eeepc, as root: /etc/init.d/ssh restart (just like debian ... ) Sep 04 08:57:49 Oh the sweet taste of Epic Fail: "To sweeten their first day at primary school German children are normally given a cardboard cone filled with sweets, but schoolchildren in Essen this year opened their cones to find pens which project erotic images." Sep 04 08:57:50 cool :) Sep 04 08:57:54 johnx:do i need to install pymaemo Sep 04 08:58:00 how do I flash just the kernel and initfs? Sep 04 08:59:15 johnx: vb as in virtual basic? Sep 04 08:59:18 visual basic* Sep 04 08:59:26 or virtual box? Sep 04 08:59:31 mreggen, -k instead of -F Sep 04 08:59:55 ieatlint: ehh, that would be question for you Sep 04 09:00:01 jacekowski, I think ieatlint said that. and yes I assume he was joking about visual basic :) Sep 04 09:00:20 well, vb is better than python Sep 04 09:00:20 thanks Sep 04 09:00:25 bince, are you trying to develop for maemo 4 ( N8x0 ) or maemo 5 ( N900 ) Sep 04 09:00:42 mreggen, but look at the help for flasher to make sure I'm not in error :) Sep 04 09:00:44 :P Sep 04 09:00:47 maemo 5,but i only found this link for python ;( Sep 04 09:00:50 :( Sep 04 09:01:07 although i'm not sure i could get virtualbox to run on the n900 either Sep 04 09:01:23 johnx:maemo 5,but i only found this link for python :( Sep 04 09:01:57 bince, google again. try: develop python n900 Sep 04 09:02:15 there are plenty of guides (I found several that looked much more modern and helpful) Sep 04 09:02:35 johnx:yeah i found an wiki site,now lookin at it :D Sep 04 09:10:23 can I stop the little vibrate the n900 does eveery time I touch teh screen? Sep 04 09:10:33 jpinx-eeepc, yes Sep 04 09:10:38 [jpinx-eeepc]: Yes, its in screen settings Sep 04 09:10:38 it's in display settings, IIRC Sep 04 09:10:54 tks Sep 04 09:11:46 ieatlint: there is 0 possibility of VirtualBox ever working on N900 :P Sep 04 09:12:43 i dunno, oracle is such an awesome company, i wouldn't rule it out Sep 04 09:13:09 Oracle is anything but awesome… Sep 04 09:13:11 isn't VirtualBox an thing for running more than one x86 OS on x86 hardware? Sep 04 09:13:12 ieatlint, yeah. it's really cool the new direction they're taking opensolaris Sep 04 09:13:16 BCMM: yes Sep 04 09:13:25 not just opensolaris Sep 04 09:13:51 they're really taking mysql and java in awesome new directions too Sep 04 09:14:03 MySQL and Java are crap :P Sep 04 09:14:04 and a large percentage of sun's staff Sep 04 09:14:17 well, at least 10% of them, anyway... :P Sep 04 09:14:24 so it's vaguely possible that something branded "virtualbox" could exist on the n900, but it wouldn't share much code with virtualbox as it is now Sep 04 09:14:38 because it does something entirely irrelevant to the n900 Sep 04 09:14:40 ieatlint, im sorry sir - im going to have to ask you to leave the internet Sep 04 09:14:40 oh well, bed time for me Sep 04 09:15:00 BCMM: well, VirtualBox is extremely based off qemu code, so in theory I guess they could just revert more… Sep 04 09:15:08 TermanaN900: because trolling has no place on the internet? Sep 04 09:15:16 anyhow, night Sep 04 09:15:21 ieatlint, :P Sep 04 09:15:31 qemu on n900! Sep 04 09:15:38 ieatlint, nah, it's legitimate sarcasm that has no place Sep 04 09:15:46 :( Sep 04 09:16:03 johnx: I suppose it was too much to expctt ssh to be on the n900 :( Sep 04 09:16:12 huh Sep 04 09:16:19 apt-get install openssh Sep 04 09:17:37 enable extras and openssh is in app manager Sep 04 09:17:48 extras or "maemo.org" Sep 04 09:17:53 quack. Sep 04 09:17:55 i've got beer, so i can deal with my unappreciated sarcasm Sep 04 09:18:04 yea yea - that'll be after I disconnect the eeepc - get the n900 to play niceely with the public wifi here, and hope that the connection speed will be enough to get ssh before Xmas ;) Sep 04 09:18:37 jpinx-eeepc, it didn't work out? Sep 04 09:18:53 I mean, it's definitely possible. keep trying Sep 04 09:18:54 I offer a service to send you a copy of any program on extras, for only $15, on a SD in the post. Sep 04 09:18:58 jpinx-eeepc: as a note, if you have wifi, you can just connect your phone and computer to the same wifi and ssh over it instead of doing all this usb networking Sep 04 09:18:59 johnx: I need to install openssh first Sep 04 09:19:02 Just in case. :) Sep 04 09:19:22 ieatlint: no I can't :( Sep 04 09:19:24 SpeedEvil: do i get to keep the sd? Sep 04 09:19:27 ieatlint, his wifi siwtuation is legitimately special Sep 04 09:19:33 ieatlint: Sure! Sep 04 09:19:55 are you going to post my address on craigslist with malicious intent Sep 04 09:20:21 256M uSDs are quite inexpensive :) Sep 04 09:20:33 johnx: I'll be back (tm) Sep 04 09:20:44 SpeedEvil, never saw one :) Sep 04 09:21:00 * SpeedEvil wonders why his laptop hung. Sep 04 09:41:34 i want a 256GiB µSD Sep 04 09:41:56 someone should really find a way to reprogram µSDs Sep 04 09:42:25 then you could have an array of network-connected µSDs acting like a server Sep 04 09:45:14 They do have a in principle reprogrammable quite capable micro in. Sep 04 09:45:36 But it can't be connected to a network Sep 04 09:45:56 SpeedEvil: SDIO Sep 04 09:46:06 SD != SDIO Sep 04 09:46:41 kerio, what Sep 04 09:54:27 johnx: all SDs have a tiny cpu Sep 04 09:55:17 CF > SD Sep 04 09:55:20 So do nearly all microwaves. Sep 04 09:55:27 This does not mean you can reprogram them. Sep 04 09:55:41 s/\./ easily./ Sep 04 09:56:04 i'd really go for a microwave with a web interface Sep 04 09:56:15 with that in mind, how's your project going? Sep 04 09:56:23 OpenWRT on a microwave Sep 04 09:56:41 ssh root@microwave defrost --start Sep 04 09:56:46 MohammadAG51, easy. just keep boosting the power output :) Sep 04 09:57:01 ssh user@microwave warm sandwhich Sep 04 09:57:16 Permission Denied Sep 04 09:57:35 gah. microwave warmed sandwich Sep 04 09:57:49 I have exactly this problem; http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=49474 . When ronaldo says "flash the eMMC and then do firmware"; he means the other way around right? You have to flash fiasco _before_ the eMMC? Sep 04 09:57:54 ssh root@MohammadAG51 suck ~kerio/balls Sep 04 09:58:11 mreggen: you can do whatever order you want Sep 04 09:58:16 mreggen, doesn't matter which one you flash first as long as you don't reboot in between Sep 04 09:58:17 Account disabled Sep 04 09:58:20 but you have to flash the fiasco image if you want to flash the eMMC Sep 04 09:58:21 so leave out the -R the first time Sep 04 09:58:24 and don't reboot Sep 04 09:58:38 MohammadAG51: are you running ubuntu? :| Sep 04 09:58:49 Ok, thanks. johnx: as you probably understand, flashing just initfs and kernel did not work :S Sep 04 09:58:52 kerio: It's stalled. I have way too much other stuff going on. I do have the bits ready to get my microwave online. Sep 04 09:58:54 As the guy in the thread says Sep 04 09:59:00 kerio, Connection refused Sep 04 09:59:01 mreggen, bummer. sorry to hear that Sep 04 10:00:24 anyways, time to sleep Sep 04 10:00:25 'night all Sep 04 10:00:44 johnx: g'nite mate - Sep 04 10:00:52 Ooops - gone Sep 04 10:01:00 kerio: mooo, and no. But johnx sait my assumption it might be related to swap seems to be correct Sep 04 10:01:08 swapoff -a Sep 04 10:01:57 On another matter. Sep 04 10:02:15 Does anyone happen to know Sep 04 10:02:16 ... Sep 04 10:02:32 Don't you hate it when you forgret what you're saying midway through a sentance. Sep 04 10:02:36 hmm Sep 04 10:02:40 Ah yes. Sep 04 10:02:53 A camera app that can be triggered by the headset button Sep 04 10:04:24 Roughly 60M people in the UK. 32M are retired, 17M in schools or education, 8M employed by the government, 1.2M in the military, 800k working for councils, 488k in hospitals and 512k in prison. Sep 04 10:04:56 Which basically means that the UK's economy is founded on the non-registered illegal aliens. Sep 04 10:05:51 SpeedEvil: write your own! Sep 04 10:05:52 :D Sep 04 10:05:55 hack fcamera Sep 04 10:06:17 same as it used to be founded on the grossly underpaid irish labour who built most of UK motorway system? Sep 04 10:06:48 kerio: yeah Sep 04 10:07:09 jpinx-eeepc: well, you lot were flogging in by the boatload, we had to give you summing to do. Sep 04 10:08:19 one presumes that crashanddie actually remembers this from first hand experience? Sep 04 10:19:16 I want to use my n900 as mobile modem for my ubuntu 10.04. Ubuntu's network manager picks up my phone just fine, but fails to connect to 3g over it. Anyone help me troubleshoot? Sep 04 10:19:46 berkes: i suggest you use something like mobilehotspot Sep 04 10:19:57 *way* easier to set up Sep 04 10:20:16 or install the Bluetooth DUN package Sep 04 10:20:27 or... Sep 04 10:20:32 what script are you using? Sep 04 10:20:37 are you using *99# as the phone number? Sep 04 10:20:39 kerio, using pc-suite over usb is supposed to be dead easy too, Sep 04 10:20:48 kerio, yes, I am. Sep 04 10:21:22 this is the log that network-manager in ubuntu writes out: http://gist.github.com/565066 Sep 04 10:23:10 http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/tips/tethering/ lead me to http://anidel.blogspot.com/2009/10/n900-as-modem-for-ubuntu-910.html. It all /seems/ fine, but fails to connect. Sep 04 10:23:24 Good afternoon guys Sep 04 10:23:41 berkes: is the connection closed, on the n900 side? Sep 04 10:24:27 kerio, I tried both with an opened connection and a closed. Just found out that with an open connection, network-manager is a lot more verbose. Sep 04 10:24:32 berkes: and you have plugged it in by USB, and selected 'ps suite' mode? Sep 04 10:24:36 c Sep 04 10:25:08 ps suite, the new exciting way to list and stop running processes! coming next june on your n900 Sep 04 10:25:31 Lol Sep 04 10:26:00 SpeedEvil, yup, I did. And I have Network manager configured. Sep 04 10:26:11 I have no idea about network manager. Sep 04 10:26:19 berkes: and you're *sure* you entered the right data to connect? Sep 04 10:26:20 I write pppd confs by hand. Sep 04 10:26:25 apn, user/pass? Sep 04 10:26:31 Hence the 'state 3' are unhelpful. Sep 04 10:26:42 SpeedEvil, yea, me neither :( I have asked in #ubuntu several times, but no luck there (too noisy room!) Sep 04 10:27:01 I would try to get it to dump ppp logs Sep 04 10:27:04 kerio, no, I am not sure. And frankly, I have no idea how to find out. Sep 04 10:27:16 Sometimes my CSP decides i'ts not going to do that today. Sep 04 10:27:19 For no good reason Sep 04 10:27:30 CSP ? Sep 04 10:27:34 berkes: huh Sep 04 10:27:43 check network settings on the n900 and copy those on ubuntu Sep 04 10:28:06 So I have this exact problem: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=49474 (no initfs). Did a firmware flash then an EMMC flash just fine. Still does not boot. Still says no initfs. Does anyone have any suggestions or is this brick going in to the nokia shop? Sep 04 10:28:34 you probably fucked up something i guess Sep 04 10:28:38 ask nokia care Sep 04 10:28:40 they care Sep 04 10:28:48 In the flashing? Sep 04 10:29:02 Flashing finished just fine as far as I could tell. Sep 04 10:29:24 Only thing I did before this problem was to power it off before charging the battery at night Sep 04 10:31:07 hm "settings > network" only seems to list wifi settings. Where are the GPRS settings stored? Sep 04 10:32:09 berkes: it's called "INTERNET" Sep 04 10:32:24 i like the internet Sep 04 10:33:39 jpinx-eeepc, sorry, that is what I meant. but NM, the setting is there, just that the amount of wifi-conn. was so large that i looked over the GPRs one. :$ Sep 04 10:33:40 does anybody else have problem with charging using nokia dedicated charger Sep 04 10:33:47 connector seems little bit loose Sep 04 10:34:04 with normal usb cable it works fine Sep 04 10:34:15 but plug on charger is having some problems Sep 04 10:34:34 jacekowski: not the case here, so i guess your charger is damaged Sep 04 10:34:50 well connector looks ok Sep 04 10:34:54 and if i plug it in Sep 04 10:35:08 jacekowski: I have some issues with the little adaptor from traditional charger to USB Sep 04 10:35:41 and push plug in forward direction it charges fine Sep 04 10:35:42 why not just use the USB charger? Sep 04 10:35:45 so charger is working Sep 04 10:35:53 it's just a connector on usb charger Sep 04 10:35:54 charging from a PC is slower isn't it? Sep 04 10:36:07 BCMM: usually, yes Sep 04 10:36:08 normal usb cable from pc works fine Sep 04 10:39:22 jacekowski: failing usb port is failing Sep 04 10:39:23 did the same for me Sep 04 10:39:26 first the wallcharger doesn't work but everything else does Sep 04 10:39:38 then nothing connects unless you twist the plug in a weird way Sep 04 10:51:07 ~seen lcuk Sep 04 10:51:10 lcuk is currently on #maemo (1d 15h 24s) #meego (1d 15h 24s). Has said a total of 406 messages. Is idling for 9h 4m 18s, last said: 'hmm'. Sep 04 11:33:52 Jesus. The N900 gave me the "No initfs" error. Would not boot (flashed everything). Put the simcard in my backup Nokia 1208 and it says "simcard rejected". Now the n900 boots without the simcard o_O. Isn't it funny that a $20 phone gives an exact error message? Sep 04 11:34:33 omm Sep 04 11:35:32 mreggen: if it's any consolation I am using an ancient nokia 6310i to double check stuff for the n900 because some clown neglected to give good error information Sep 04 11:35:52 jacekowski: check your USB receptacle. All your descriptions sound rather scary and suspicious, receptacle might start to come loose Sep 04 11:36:17 unfortunately the n900 sux in many ways - possibly too many to fix and make it useable Sep 04 11:36:21 jpinx-eeepc: yeah. I just flashed over everything, including EMMC with no backup :(. Im really curious how the sim suddenly broke without doing anything though Sep 04 11:37:00 mreggen: can you get the operators service people to check the sim for details? Sep 04 11:37:54 jpinx-eeepc: well, the sim is not online in any phone now as the 1208 wont accept it. How can they check it then? (and i cant call them now either as I am without any usable phone, lol) Sep 04 11:37:55 hi Sep 04 11:38:03 is it possible to change the phone application? Sep 04 11:38:15 i would like to have a sliding button to pick up the phone Sep 04 11:38:27 mreggen: I mean if you can physically take it to their service shop Sep 04 11:38:30 now i accidently shut it off way too much Sep 04 11:39:00 jpinx-eeepc: ah, its a low price norwegian online thing. no pysical locations. will just email them for replacement sim I guess. Sep 04 11:39:11 eibeen suggested by me some time ago (sliding button). Alas it's virtually impossible to swap the dialer app Sep 04 11:39:22 pity Sep 04 11:39:28 ElAngelo: ^^^ Sep 04 11:39:37 mreggen: :/ Sep 04 11:39:39 and is there an applet for the desktop to set my im accounts offline or online? Sep 04 11:39:50 so i don't have to go into that menu every time Sep 04 11:48:30 ElAngelo, just click the status bar and click 'Availability' Sep 04 11:58:02 ~seen Venemo_n900 Sep 04 11:58:06 venemo_n900 <~communi@catv-89-132-105-133.catv.broadband.hu> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1h 6m 59s ago, saying: '~seen lcuk'. Sep 04 11:58:15 * lcuk chuckles Sep 04 11:59:11 heh Sep 04 11:59:53 morning MNZ Sep 04 12:00:38 morning mate Sep 04 12:02:50 DocScrutinizer, it was said to be similar to add a button to the sharing dialog, but albanc managed it. Sep 04 12:03:17 DocScrutinizer, did you get to the bottom of the copying thing last night Sep 04 12:03:50 * lcuk ended up playing eye spy with jake. rather odd time but he couldnt sleep again Sep 04 12:05:43 nice to play with kids Sep 04 12:05:50 reminds you of what play is Sep 04 12:06:17 pupnik, always, but at 3am its not so good Sep 04 12:06:27 nop Sep 04 12:10:37 lcuk: (adding/swapping button) I suggested it could probably be done easily by ld_preload'ing the related qt libs. But it's such a disgusting embarrassing hack, I'd really prefer to see Nokia open up source for a number of core apps, like dialer. All the rationale why they can't is really nonsense Sep 04 12:11:55 lcuk: (cp thing) seems turned out to be swap related, as sugested by me. Swap on same eMMC card brings everything to a grinding halt when writing huge amounts of data to eMMC Sep 04 12:12:18 * SpeedEvil wishes someone would fix swap. Sep 04 12:12:27 I have a sort-of-written spec for a hack. Sep 04 12:12:35 Basically a simple nbd server Sep 04 12:12:42 that is local and file-based. Sep 04 12:12:58 and implements a circular buffer sort-of, with garbage collection Sep 04 12:14:10 (maybe s/qt libs/gtk libs, whatever,/ ) Sep 04 12:14:37 heck, we even could patch the binary, but WTF?! Sep 04 12:15:05 add swap prefetch Sep 04 12:15:13 that would fix the problem Sep 04 12:15:42 do it, prove it, show it Sep 04 12:16:19 swap prefetch entirely does not fix the problem Sep 04 12:16:27 It doesn't help fragmentation at all Sep 04 12:17:39 i think swap is a pretty cool guy. eh grinds systems to a halt during IO and doesn't afraid of anything Sep 04 12:18:33 oh lawl Sep 04 12:18:36 yeah, kswapd is a sucker Sep 04 12:18:42 braindamaged, it seems Sep 04 12:19:42 that was scary o.O Sep 04 12:20:10 N900 was connected to computer and seemingly charging but suddenly said charge battery and shut down Sep 04 12:20:53 i saw that Sep 04 12:21:02 and the most funny thing is, even when a process runs at nice 20, still the IO caused by such process seems to massively interfere with kswapd. As well as kswapd IO kills whole system in itself, even when process owning the swapping pages is at nice 20 Sep 04 12:21:48 nice 20 kswapd! :D Sep 04 12:22:58 secyritas: if it's been connected to some sorta hub, or any kind of non-standard USB port, it might easily end up with 'charging' @ 100mA rate, which basically means it's discharging dispite of external (weak) power Sep 04 12:23:14 100mA should be enough for everyone Sep 04 12:23:31 (is it enough with an idle system in offline mode?) Sep 04 12:23:35 that was meant to be what now? Sep 04 12:24:02 DocScrutinizer: nothing, i'm just in meme-spewing mode because i'm tired Sep 04 12:24:47 kerio: seems even USB data hardware is eating some 50mA Sep 04 12:25:42 how can the n900 have all of these obvious flaws and then still end up being an incredibly awesome device? Sep 04 12:26:53 DocScrutinizer: i believe you are right thought i dont have any hubs connected Sep 04 12:27:00 at least that's what you observe when plugging in non-standards conforming fastcharger (D+- missing) - device thinks that's a host ut there, as there's VBUS, and battery consumption *rises* by some 50..60mA, as no charging whatsoever is enabled, giving any ENUM or D+- short is missing Sep 04 12:28:55 DocScrutinizer: if kswapd is running it's irrelvant the 'nice' level of the original process Sep 04 12:29:14 secyritas: also can be caused by defect cable (no ENUM), or simply by host going suspend or the like (also no [more?] ENUM) Sep 04 12:29:29 asj_: that's my point Sep 04 12:29:48 asj_: sorry if I wasn't clear on that Sep 04 12:29:56 DocScrutinizer: I havent checked, but I bet it grabs some big locks since it's messing with memory. Ok, gotcha Sep 04 12:30:13 ack for the big kernel lock Sep 04 12:30:16 It would be lovely if you could do per-user swap Sep 04 12:30:30 For example - be able to say 'user x swaps on device foo' Sep 04 12:30:47 So if device foo goes away - only user x's processes fault Sep 04 12:30:53 SpeedEvil: run for patetnt! nice idea :-D Sep 04 12:30:55 poor user x Sep 04 12:30:57 mm, having a mobile device that swaps is really indicative of a bigger problem though Sep 04 12:31:05 why do his processes have to suffer Sep 04 12:31:12 asj_: well - yes and no. Sep 04 12:31:35 asj_: in principle it would of course be better to rewrite it so that the apps used less memory. But... Sep 04 12:31:36 asj_: swapping can be good, if the alternative is having less battery because RAM takes more pw Sep 04 12:31:44 the bigger problem is the smaller RAM :-P Sep 04 12:32:11 has anyone succeeded in compiling sdl apps on maemo? Sep 04 12:32:12 i mean, the IO of the swap probably balances that out Sep 04 12:32:23 SpeedEvil: while I'm all for dumping idle pages out...but the write speeds are so slow. But what are you going to do with you're running firefox :| Sep 04 12:32:25 felipec: mame runs fine, and i think it's sdl Sep 04 12:32:26 felipec, sdl works happily? Sep 04 12:32:40 ( why does that sound like diction of some exotic species in well known SF movies? ) Sep 04 12:33:10 and it's not like we're writing less memory hungry apps, ever. (look at symbian for an example of doing-it-wrong) Sep 04 12:33:23 lcuk: I'm compiling ffmpeg and I get: ld: warning: libasound.so.2, needed by /usr/lib/libSDL.so, not found (try using -rpath or -rpath-link) Sep 04 12:34:15 kerio: mmm we just need better bat tech, and less leaky mem ;) see, solved ;) Sep 04 12:34:22 felipec, sdl 1.2 and 1.3 are available Sep 04 12:34:23 http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search[1][property]=name&org_maemo_packages_search[1][constraint]=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search[1][value]=sdl&org_maemo_packages_search[2][property]=title&org_maemo_packages_search[2][constraint]=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search[2][value]=same Sep 04 12:34:54 * DocScrutinizer is fetching the lart, er dart, to recalibrate developers' attitude regarding memory usage Sep 04 12:34:54 asj_: yeah Sep 04 12:35:06 how about a tiny fusion reactor Sep 04 12:35:26 lcuk: yeah, with sdl 1.3 ffmpeg compiles fine, but it's not on extras Sep 04 12:35:36 though people don't like batteries catching fire atm, imagin what'll happen when energy densities get to high when they blow it takes out your house and your neighbors...ah well, can't be helped I need phone ;) Sep 04 12:35:45 a fusion reactor for the n900? I'm all for it ;D Sep 04 12:36:14 think about it Sep 04 12:36:18 but honestly, the cp stall problem of last night was a special species of sucking critter, as it happened on swap virtually unused (it was down to some 8%) Sep 04 12:36:22 a hydrogen-fueled battery that runs for a millennium Sep 04 12:36:38 and then, bme would still find a way to fuck things up Sep 04 12:37:12 * asj_ goes to bed Sep 04 12:37:35 kerio: you'd need plutonium powered thermocells for that Sep 04 12:37:57 felipec, contact wilson perhaps and see whether he wants to push it Sep 04 12:38:22 or start/continue a discussion about testing it thoroughly and getting it there Sep 04 12:38:55 DocScrutinizer: i don't want plutonium anywhere near the bme Sep 04 12:39:16 i mean Sep 04 12:39:22 i don't want bme anywhere near plutonium Sep 04 12:39:27 lcuk: I'm not interested in that... I just want to run ffplay on my device without messing the system :) Sep 04 12:39:33 kerio: otheer way round it's more reasonable: you don't want bme next to any plutonium :-P Sep 04 12:39:36 of course Sep 04 12:40:12 oh you already said that Sep 04 12:40:59 lcuk: http://pastie.org/1137797 Sep 04 12:42:34 I start to feel temped to do my little fance of last weekend once again: swapon /dev/mmcblk1p3 && swapoff /dev/mmcblk0p3 && cp /dev/zero ~user/MyDocs/foobar Sep 04 12:43:30 might show if it's interface/eMMC-controller related, or a general spinlock problem of kernel Sep 04 12:44:20 and, btw, where's tstkeeps when he should listen Sep 04 12:44:28 stskeeps even Sep 04 12:46:02 hmm felipec have you installed 1.3 from -devel Sep 04 12:46:06 on a sidenote: the swapoff took some 3 min to complete, though there were just ~60MB swap used when I did that Sep 04 12:46:24 lcuk: with 1.3 it works, with 1.2 it doesn't Sep 04 12:46:54 lcuk: if I remove the --rpath-link options it works, so I'm thinking 1.2 is missing something from sdl-config Sep 04 12:48:21 pm your mail address, I will fire a quick mail off to the maintainer on your behalf but really this is his task and there might be other blockers which we don't see Sep 04 12:48:57 * lcuk has his own blockers to unblock today Sep 04 12:49:24 okaay! way to go, vodafone: tethering /was/ dead-easy, and worked all along. Just that i chose the "business"-plan, and should have chosen the "none-businessplan". My "bedrijfsabonnement"(Dutch for businessplan) is, after all a none-business plan at vodafone. OH! The logic! :) Sep 04 12:49:40 wasn't there complaints about SSU was borked for somebody, as apt reported checksum madness or something, for *sdl* lib? Sep 04 12:50:04 but thanks for the help, kerio, nonetheless. :) Sep 04 12:50:20 berkes: nonetheless? Sep 04 12:50:22 huh? Sep 04 12:50:24 i told you to recheck! Sep 04 12:50:54 yea, you helped me, earlier on. I found out that it was nothing sofware, or hardware related, but stupid vodafone naming issues :) Sep 04 12:51:09 "stupid" and "vodafone" being the key points in that sentence Sep 04 12:52:04 kerio, yea, me being stupid for not doublechecking their exact details. But seriously, who wouldve guessed that a "business account" falls under "none-business" ? :) Sep 04 12:52:34 never underestimate the satanic ingenuity of carrier's marketing droids Sep 04 12:52:38 usually business vs non-business is really "voice+data account" vs "data only account" Sep 04 12:54:17 hehe, seems to me we got no such things like business plans anymore here in Germany. Just all kinds of airbags, easy weekends, free+nowhere and similar inventive crap with absolutely no real meaning Sep 04 12:55:16 and always you got 80+ lines of 3pt fineprint, that still don't cover all the gory details Sep 04 12:55:31 Hi, Sep 04 12:55:31 I have a nokia N900, the fstab is to restore the machine to start What can I do to prevent this? Sep 04 12:55:31 (I speak only French is used for the google translation) Sep 04 12:56:35 hmm, the bad translator turns "fstab is reset on startup" into "in most fstab file" Sep 04 12:56:37 oh, that's why it made little sense to me on first read Sep 04 12:57:00 lcuk: aha! SDL 1.2: "-L/usr/lib -lSDL", SDL 1.3: "-L/usr/lib -Wl,-rpath,/usr/lib -lSDL -lpthread" Sep 04 12:57:29 felipec, :D ahh so you can build using sdl1.2 and not have a big problem! Sep 04 12:57:40 panthere_noire, :( if you have reboot loop. try plug usb and turn on N900. BACKUP if possible. Sep 04 12:57:44 panthere_noire: the fstab is regenerated on every boot, somewhere in the init scripts Sep 04 12:58:12 panthere_noire: you don't usually want to mess with that, as it is dangerous Sep 04 12:59:13 panthere_noire: do not rely on fstab edit. You need to implement any things you want to get done, in a more explicit way, by adding to the init scripts Sep 04 12:59:51 ok I understood for the backup I am familiar with debian, I just want to test without the swap. an idea of the name of the script? Sep 04 13:00:05 panthere_noire: e.g instead of `mount -a` you need to explicitly write `mount device where someoptions bla` Sep 04 13:00:42 grep swapon etc/init.d/* Sep 04 13:01:02 lcuk: I can't find Wilson Tang's email Sep 04 13:01:13 swapon-off was not working because it uses Sep 04 13:01:21 ok search :p Sep 04 13:02:23 IroN900:~# grep swapon /etc/init.d/* Sep 04 13:02:25 /etc/init.d/rcS: swapon $swap Sep 04 13:02:56 felipec, i have PM it to you, its in the debian changelog Sep 04 13:03:23 panthere_noire: again, *be careful*! messing with initscripts easily gets you to a point of reflashing as last resort Sep 04 13:05:03 I know I have flash. for the swap I do not think his real problem Sep 04 13:12:04 panthere_noire: swapoff /dev/mmcblk0p3 worked for me Sep 04 13:12:19 panthere_noire: even after system had finished to boot up Sep 04 13:14:08 the command is 0 gives free good thank you:)) Sep 04 13:16:29 DocScrutinizer: and then what happens once you run out of the 256mb of ram? Sep 04 13:16:42 oh nice Sep 04 13:16:43 guess! Sep 04 13:16:43 well apparently its not working without the swap, too many open its application. vai me see if I can not adjust the level of the swap Sep 04 13:16:47 pyqt4 is broken Sep 04 13:16:56 DocScrutinizer: hmm... cake comes out? Sep 04 13:17:07 who maintains python? Sep 04 13:17:14 hmm... GvR? Sep 04 13:17:19 oh, you mean the maemo package Sep 04 13:17:29 pyQt on maemo Sep 04 13:17:38 I hate smartasses Sep 04 13:17:42 kerio: malloc() will fail, simple as that Sep 04 13:18:00 DocScrutinizer: that's not very good :( Sep 04 13:18:40 or, probably, OOM will kick in, killing off processes Sep 04 13:21:32 kerio: well, if you don't like that, just add a 2GB memory module Sep 04 13:22:07 DocScrutinizer: would a USB addon be feasible? Sep 04 13:22:32 sure, if you patch the kernels memory mapper Sep 04 13:23:05 what about a usb mass device that's actually just ram? Sep 04 13:23:06 hey Sep 04 13:23:11 MohammadAG, hey Sep 04 13:23:24 so i'm trying to flash to no-r&D mode Sep 04 13:23:31 and i get kinda error Sep 04 13:23:40 how laggy is usb? Sep 04 13:23:49 DocScrutinizer, Sep 04 13:23:50 kerio: 42 Sep 04 13:23:51 option-p is not available for swapon Sep 04 13:23:51 or it is possible to do otherwise with "-p"? Sep 04 13:23:53 Version of 'sw-release': Sep 04 13:23:54 The device is now in production mode Sep 04 13:24:04 ok does it says i flashed it succesfully? Sep 04 13:24:13 panthere_noire: not with busybox swapon Sep 04 13:25:19 oh,I can do otherwise? Sep 04 13:25:28 dunno Sep 04 13:25:43 there *might* be swapon in some other package Sep 04 13:25:47 but I doubt Sep 04 13:26:18 probably you need to build from scratch, err source, for maemo Sep 04 13:26:52 ok and if I take one of the debian could walk? Sep 04 13:27:19 though it's unclear if even kswapd (aka kernel) is supporting swap priorities, on maemo Sep 04 13:27:43 panthere_noire: either works, fails, or segfaults :-) Sep 04 13:28:12 ok :'( tanks for information Sep 04 13:28:42 you are welcome Sep 04 13:30:11 :) Sep 04 13:30:26 panthere_noire: anyway, you know about `cat /proc/swaps` which at least is a replacement of another missing function in busybox swapon/off Sep 04 13:31:21 ok :) Sep 04 13:37:12 panthere_noire: no idea if busybox swapon -a respects priorities set in fstab. As fstab is regenerated on every boot, I'd guess messing with fstab a little bit is not too dangerous. Just append a line for your swap, containing the correct prio filed (which I fail to grep the correct format in manpages ATM) Sep 04 13:40:21 exactly how? Sep 04 13:43:22 kerio, i think win7/vista does this, called flash boots or something Sep 04 13:43:40 boost Sep 04 13:46:17 fstab is autogenerated Sep 04 13:55:36 SpeedEvil: we are aware of this Sep 04 13:55:46 What has the service process (demon?) / usr/sbin/bme_RX-51 Sep 04 13:56:10 panthere_noire: sorry? Sep 04 13:56:23 panthere_noire: bme is the battery management entity Sep 04 13:56:25 Are you asking what BME does? Sep 04 13:56:38 http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_BME Sep 04 13:57:05 Actually - that's a poor page from that perspecitve - it doesn't really explain what it is. Sep 04 13:57:08 tanks :)) Sep 04 13:57:16 but it's ok Sep 04 13:59:25 so is the last release from nokia as far as you can go with an n800? I have been out of the internet tablet scene for a while... Sep 04 13:59:36 n900 Sep 04 13:59:38 is there anything like the "hacker edition" for the 770? Sep 04 13:59:41 oh Sep 04 13:59:43 sorry Sep 04 13:59:45 yeah I know about the n900 Sep 04 13:59:51 I'm not fully awake Sep 04 13:59:56 I meant is there anything FURTHER Sep 04 13:59:59 :) Sep 04 14:00:01 npt telescope Sep 04 14:00:02 than the last official nokia Sep 04 14:00:09 telescope? Sep 04 14:00:15 please do tell Sep 04 14:00:28 a nice app which changes the way you look at your n800 :) Sep 04 14:00:29 sounds like I may be happy to hear this Sep 04 14:00:29 I regret I know little of the n800 - having come to maemo with the n900 Sep 04 14:00:42 ahh Sep 04 14:00:44 its just a small thing but made lots of people smile Sep 04 14:00:50 I started with n770 Sep 04 14:00:57 sold that and got an n800 Sep 04 14:00:59 LOVED IT Sep 04 14:01:02 used it a ton Sep 04 14:01:56 but have been sooo busy the last year or so Sep 04 14:02:04 :) Sep 04 14:02:12 I've not regretted at all getting then900. Sep 04 14:02:15 so is there any unofficial stuff for it that loads a later O/S? Sep 04 14:02:22 I was told Sep 04 14:02:29 My one major niggle is thatthe cheap bastardss only put one stylus in the box. Sep 04 14:02:42 I just missed a 1/2 off sake on the n900 by ONE WEEK on nokiausa.com Sep 04 14:02:43 sucks Sep 04 14:02:47 : ( Sep 04 14:02:49 I remember hearing someone mention something, but I wasn't paying attention. Sep 04 14:03:00 npt: well - ebay has them quite cheap Sep 04 14:03:04 lcuk, is that a joke? Sep 04 14:03:07 telescope Sep 04 14:03:11 really? Sep 04 14:03:14 how cheap Sep 04 14:03:30 tank-man, no - everyone I have seen and spoken to about it has raved Sep 04 14:03:34 well - cheaper than new. Sep 04 14:03:46 so why would it be a joke Sep 04 14:03:47 That is 230 quid or so in the UK. Sep 04 14:04:00 its a nice app, well written Sep 04 14:04:19 and shows that you don't need fancy pants powervr 3d ness to actually do the dashboard effect Sep 04 14:05:39 interesting but i like to keep it simple Sep 04 14:05:48 npt: (used a ton) http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.public/joerg900.10004 ;-) Sep 04 14:08:11 My three year old daughter tried passing the phone to my four year old daugher but dropped it instead. My four year old started crying, picked up the phone and said into it Daddy! Are you OK? IMMD. Sep 04 14:08:28 http://itmademyday.com/2010/09/02/funny-win-story-momma-mias-little-moment-of-win/ Sep 04 14:08:38 lcuk: idk if i said this yesterday but <3 telescope. h Sep 04 14:08:43 lcuk: how the hell did you find it Sep 04 14:09:07 sevard, its been built up in the tmo forums, and yes :) I saw you yesterday after I had gone Sep 04 14:09:13 npt: I don't think there's a new OS version for N8x0, but recently there actually have been some app updates via SSU, and also I heard something about some community maintained repo Sep 04 14:09:30 lcuk: tmobile? Sep 04 14:09:31 :) Sep 04 14:09:51 talk.maemo.org Sep 04 14:10:00 theres a couple of threads Sep 04 14:10:11 its quite a team effort, telescope is written in x11 directly Sep 04 14:11:15 :D Sep 04 14:11:29 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=50689 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=58691 Sep 04 14:12:36 lcuk: tyvm. Sep 04 14:15:53 hmm perhaps that would be a good tagline for tmo Sep 04 14:16:03 "talk.maemo.org - not just for whinging" Sep 04 14:16:07 An opened task switcher would be nice. Sep 04 14:16:18 huh opened? Sep 04 14:16:24 that is an open task switcher Sep 04 14:16:29 lcuk - n900 Sep 04 14:16:38 huh opened? Sep 04 14:16:46 hildon has it all Sep 04 14:16:53 or am I missing something? Sep 04 14:16:57 Oh - that's one of the open bits? Sep 04 14:17:04 all the desktop itself is open Sep 04 14:17:06 * SpeedEvil still gets confused. Sep 04 14:17:08 * SpeedEvil sighs. Sep 04 14:17:11 apps running on it might not be Sep 04 14:17:35 but the desktop environment itself is totally hackable Sep 04 14:17:56 I want the task switcher to show the full normal titlebar Sep 04 14:18:26 SpeedEvil, then have a look and see whats what? Sep 04 14:18:38 the simpler titlebar is obviously there for a reason Sep 04 14:18:47 basically because you wouldnt be able to read it otherwise Sep 04 14:18:52 lcuk: regrettably, I have at teh moment little energy for hacking. Sep 04 14:19:04 umm - no Sep 04 14:19:15 I mean a full titlebar on the top of the taskswitcher window Sep 04 14:19:15 it also would change Sep 04 14:19:29 ohh you mean showing the clock etc Sep 04 14:19:58 SpeedEvil, theres been suggestions about other things also Sep 04 14:19:58 well - app-swich icon - then clock/bat/systray - then a few buttons to start apps/bookmarks Sep 04 14:20:04 like close all windows for instance Sep 04 14:20:09 yeah Sep 04 14:20:13 achipa, ping Sep 04 14:20:14 yeah - that sort of stuff Sep 04 14:20:15 understood now Sep 04 14:20:24 So 2g/3g switcher or stuff can live there Sep 04 14:20:43 theres certainly scope to discuss it and to see if someone will get behind you and try to prototype it Sep 04 14:20:46 and with camkeyd - be accessed in 2 clicks Sep 04 14:20:58 understood Sep 04 14:21:07 * SpeedEvil looks behind him, in a pantomime-esque manner. Sep 04 14:21:09 i have my own ideas what should be in the task switcher Sep 04 14:21:27 Does it include a background of animated cooking bacon? Sep 04 14:21:39 nahh, simpler Sep 04 14:21:52 but theres interactions the task switcher and app launcher menu should do Sep 04 14:22:05 like showing live tasks at the head of the app launcher menu Sep 04 14:22:13 yeah Sep 04 14:22:14 and showing desktops in the task switcher Sep 04 14:22:37 merging app launcher and dashboard effectively Sep 04 14:23:24 alterego, gas balls seems to be the same as live-wp Sep 04 14:23:33 but the wallpaper sticks instead of moving Sep 04 14:24:02 MohammadAG, livewp 0.9 Sep 04 14:24:04 liqflow in live-wp detects mouse events in the same way Sep 04 14:24:11 has a single wallpaper spanning all Sep 04 14:24:15 and retains its position Sep 04 14:24:56 On an unrelated manner. Sep 04 14:25:08 Can I stop FMradio switching orientation Sep 04 14:25:13 so it's no different from gas balls Sep 04 14:25:51 SpeedEvil: it's just python iirc Sep 04 14:26:01 SpeedEvil: so it's probably matter of commenting out one line Sep 04 14:26:32 MohammadAG, gas balls is a great standalone implementation and I think it will become configurable using the livewp settings dialog soon too (if it works in the same way) Sep 04 14:26:58 those that haven't seen, gas balls is an amazing opengl live wallpaper that is available on ovi store Sep 04 14:28:10 lcuk: n900? ;) Sep 04 14:28:51 yes sevard Sep 04 14:28:55 heh Sep 04 14:29:14 but since you have gone, there is now some sort of prototype drivers for powervr on the n8x0 Sep 04 14:29:23 and people have been hacking at them Sep 04 14:37:22 ooooooooorly Sep 04 14:37:28 any progress? Sep 04 14:37:28 :D Sep 04 14:43:03 woooooop Sep 04 14:43:23 * Noobmonk3y blinks Sep 04 14:43:37 omg Sep 04 14:43:37 FFS FINALLY Sep 04 14:43:44 * lcuk dashes to the pantry Sep 04 14:43:46 first of all Sep 04 14:43:48 lol! Sep 04 14:43:50 * lcuk finds its empty Sep 04 14:43:51 * MohammadAG checks logs Sep 04 14:43:55 * lcuk gets a trout out of the freezer Sep 04 14:44:03 whoa whoa whoa Sep 04 14:44:06 * lcuk WHAPS Noobmonk3y round the head Sep 04 14:44:15 * Noobmonk3y wooooooots Sep 04 14:44:19 hey dude Sep 04 14:44:28 havnt had a good trout slapping in a while! Sep 04 14:44:36 * MohammadAG kicks Noobmonk3y in the face Sep 04 14:44:37 sorry it was a frozen one Sep 04 14:44:41 hahaha Sep 04 14:44:43 the blackeye will heal eventually Sep 04 14:44:58 not sure which i prefer, the frozen trout or the kick Sep 04 14:45:11 tough choice! Sep 04 14:45:15 * lcuk kicks you with a frozen trout Sep 04 14:45:15 * MohammadAG kicks Noobmonk3y again Sep 04 14:45:16 better? Sep 04 14:45:23 how is the land of #maemo?! Sep 04 14:45:29 * MohammadAG kicks Noobmonk3y again, LIKE IT Sep 04 14:45:39 dry Sep 04 14:45:46 alot better! alothough u need to get your leg looked at lcuk! Sep 04 14:45:47 with a bit of moisture :P Sep 04 14:45:51 lol mo Sep 04 14:45:57 or snowing at 30C Sep 04 14:46:00 Noobmonk3y, nahh the leg is fine Sep 04 14:46:04 my ear is a bit busted tho Sep 04 14:46:05 anyways Sep 04 14:46:07 :) Sep 04 14:46:12 busted ear? Sep 04 14:46:19 burst ear drum Sep 04 14:46:35 ouch!!!! Sep 04 14:46:48 pardon? Sep 04 14:46:58 :) Sep 04 14:48:04 i still havnt got round to reconfiguring my lappy to get healthcheck going again! Sep 04 14:48:14 then its not healthy Sep 04 14:48:26 apt-get source healthcheck Sep 04 14:48:31 and you're done Sep 04 14:48:42 hehehe on my n900 at the mo! Sep 04 14:51:56 http://www.flickr.com/photos/andreatrasatti/4953583301/ a box of N8s Sep 04 14:53:01 a box of rubbish Sep 04 14:53:33 lol Sep 04 14:53:39 trying to recommend a phone for my gfs dad, really no replacements for the old nokia communicators yet.... Sep 04 14:55:38 n900 is somewhat on par with old communicator for some parts, otherwise there's n9 which seems to be alot better judging by the leaked pics Sep 04 14:56:17 yeah, the n9 i assume is a little less geeky then the n900? might suit him a bit more Sep 04 14:56:49 he uses it as an office phone really, but wants skype etc, bit scared to recommend the N900 Sep 04 14:57:04 the only thing is that n9 hasn't been released so one shouldn't put too much eggs on the basket or expect that basket to rip open and drop all the eggs out Sep 04 14:58:02 well, there iisnt anything else, so waiting is good! hehehe Sep 04 14:58:10 i had managed to not have space issues but then i had to reflash and now i don't remember what i did and i don't have enough free space in /home anymore :( Sep 04 14:58:26 I think there has been many updates since the old 9xxx communicators, many variants.. then there's that n97 which looks a little similar to communicator minus the ugly face Sep 04 14:58:58 waiting is probably good just don't wait and expect too much or you'll be in for a surprise Sep 04 14:59:02 but just not great! Sep 04 14:59:16 the c6 is also ok, but need something with more beef Sep 04 14:59:36 any suggestions? Sep 04 14:59:37 I don't think any of the nokia's products has been great, they almost always have their own set of issues Sep 04 14:59:50 well, my n900 is up for renewal next april! hope there is something gd out!! Sep 04 15:00:29 pupnik: this box of N8 looks like somene collected rubbish in there Sep 04 15:00:44 someone* Sep 04 15:00:51 lol Sep 04 15:01:09 i can't decide my favorite color. maybe the cyan/blue Sep 04 15:01:11 apparently there's iphail in there as well Sep 04 15:01:17 lol Sep 04 15:01:52 ooh, psycho_oreos had similar idea :-D Sep 04 15:02:09 Hi Sep 04 15:02:13 my n900 hasn't been too bad but I haven't served the 6 month `grace novelty period' Sep 04 15:02:44 lol! mine will be a year old in november, and is still doing me proud Sep 04 15:03:03 DocScrutinizer, meh, n8, the last of the shitian OS to bear nokia's n series.. and it'll be rid of Sep 04 15:03:45 good to see people are as enthusiastic as ever Sep 04 15:03:56 i prefer having the full computer experience of n900, but n8 is a nice device with a great camera and screen Sep 04 15:04:31 i need a keypad, touch only doesn't work for me. Sep 04 15:05:09 Noobmonk3y, the X3-2 is actually awesome for that Sep 04 15:05:11 touch and type :) Sep 04 15:05:18 simple logical phone Sep 04 15:05:23 with best of both Sep 04 15:05:27 pfft Sep 04 15:05:28 how about taking the key pitch of the e71 and putting a full keyboard on the n900 Sep 04 15:05:31 TiagoTiago: I seem to remember you did a `du | sort -n | less` and then moved and symlinked stuff Sep 04 15:05:54 x3-2?!! Sep 04 15:06:09 TiagoTiago: ...as you couldn't get rid of some greedy apps or games Sep 04 15:06:14 lcuk, can it do all the office, skype, stuff etc? Sep 04 15:06:26 Noobmonk3y, its a phone not a computer Sep 04 15:06:37 my e71 is crap and i hate it Sep 04 15:06:40 oh! Sep 04 15:07:15 i only use it as a phone and it just cant do that right..... tis pooo.... Sep 04 15:07:42 TiagoTiago, btw I forgot to mention yesterday before I went to sleep, you are going to have to reinstall the rest of the python libs. Basically, your python installation is still b0rked Sep 04 15:07:43 my n95-1 is crap but for now I won't have to put up with its own epic woes, the last I'll ever see shitian giving me headaches Sep 04 15:08:18 TiagoTiago, and really the only sane answer, IMHO, for your problem is to repartition and reflash Sep 04 15:09:13 :( Sep 04 15:09:28 Has there been any substantiated rumors of meego on n8/n9? Sep 04 15:09:52 n8 is going to be shitian only lol Sep 04 15:10:11 sed -i -e 's/2048/4096/' path/to/*VANILLA*.bin Sep 04 15:10:14 think its pretty much released, n8 Sep 04 15:10:24 speed, wouldnt have thought so Sep 04 15:10:30 flash patched vanilla, profit Sep 04 15:10:43 but i'm sure somone will do it Sep 04 15:11:08 but i am well out of the loop Sep 04 15:11:26 meego on n8 would be epic, couldn't imagine how well it would run anyway Sep 04 15:11:31 * lcuk uses Noobmonk3y as a fanbelt to put him back in the loop Sep 04 15:11:41 sweeeeet Sep 04 15:11:44 is there a tutorial somewhere on repartioning for complete newbies? Sep 04 15:11:44 my impression has been that N8 is symbian and N9 is meego, but... Sep 04 15:11:50 TiagoTiago, no Sep 04 15:11:58 TiagoTiago, what DocScrutinizer said was @ you Sep 04 15:12:01 complete newbies dont even know what repartitioning is Sep 04 15:12:11 SwedeMike, yes. Sep 04 15:12:21 TiagoTiago, try ripping lcuks brain apart, might be something uselful in there Sep 04 15:12:21 thats like spotwelding your car to make it 4wd Sep 04 15:12:45 n8 is still symbian, I dunno who's been saying n8 is meego, alas n8 lacks keyboard features plus who knows if the phonet and what not will still remain proprietary or not under meego Sep 04 15:12:55 Noobmonk3y, i umm need my brain in one pieces atm :$ Sep 04 15:12:56 what is patched vanilla? Sep 04 15:13:11 TiagoTiago, of course, you don't really have sed..... :/ Sep 04 15:13:19 TiagoTiago, icecream with a plaster Sep 04 15:13:25 hahaha Sep 04 15:13:31 its neopolitan icecream Sep 04 15:13:38 :D Sep 04 15:13:45 that's disgusting, and poisonous Sep 04 15:13:45 am i too sleepy right now or are you guys fucking with me? Sep 04 15:13:59 vanilla means stock Sep 04 15:14:16 TiagoTiago, well, the VANILLA image, after you run that 'sed -i ...' command would now be considered 'patched' vanilla Sep 04 15:14:17 swipe could be in principle interesting for keyb Sep 04 15:14:25 zwipe Sep 04 15:14:29 I forget the silly name Sep 04 15:14:41 vanilla kernel means plain kernel.. aka kernel.org provides vanilla kernel because they have not been molested to run for any specific distribution Sep 04 15:14:46 i think i missed that part, what is the sed thing? Sep 04 15:15:10 TiagoTiago, like I said, you don't have it... it's a nice little utility on linux Sep 04 15:15:21 TiagoTiago, based on prior experience with your hacking attempts, i suggest you go and quietly readup perhaps Sep 04 15:15:30 before attempting such a thing Sep 04 15:15:35 its not for the faint hearted Sep 04 15:15:43 and its not simple Sep 04 15:16:19 sed is a very classic unix utility, history back to 70ties or 80ties. Sep 04 15:16:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sed#History Sep 04 15:16:27 lol Sep 04 15:16:30 i think i'll come back here about this topic some other time, i' having severe signals i should be sleeping right now :( Sep 04 15:16:37 TiagoTiago, also, that VANILLA image is actually the eMMC image. In other words, repartitioning requires complete reflashing of everything Sep 04 15:17:15 vanilla image used by nokia just means factory defaults :p Sep 04 15:17:15 TiagoTiago: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools Sep 04 15:17:51 sorry, i don't think i' in conditions to keep up with you guys right now, need sleep ASAP, sorry, cya Sep 04 15:18:02 TiagoTiago, night Sep 04 15:18:09 night! Sep 04 15:18:11 Noobmonk3y, :) i did some merging last night and have patched up a potential update for libliqbase :) Sep 04 15:18:14 TiagoTiago: bookmark that link, we won't resend it for you Sep 04 15:18:19 oooo yay!!!! Sep 04 15:18:50 is qtmultimedia working on the n900 yet? if so i might come out or pyretirement Sep 04 15:18:56 SwedeMike, of course you don't say 'unix utility' to a noob because that's just asking for more questions :D Sep 04 15:19:07 hm unsure of status Sep 04 15:20:01 kinda stopped hc until it works, as it had some great tools! Sep 04 15:20:01 bookmarked, cya Sep 04 15:23:11 Noobmonk3y, people have been using it for diagnostics for a while Sep 04 15:23:14 its a great tool Sep 04 15:23:19 someone had broken their lcd Sep 04 15:23:34 and used it to confirm the touch was still working i believe (using tvout) Sep 04 15:23:56 hehe, yeah had a few emails, and saw the threads, good to see it does the basics well :) Sep 04 15:24:20 indeed Sep 04 15:24:28 v2 needs alot of improvements though :) Sep 04 15:26:37 working on a website at the mo too :) gonna take me a few months :) Sep 04 15:27:09 yeah Sep 04 15:27:10 and designing livecycle forms at work, so my head feels very geeked out at the mo! Sep 04 15:27:16 how is your photog life going? Sep 04 15:28:01 doing alot of macro and studio stuff at the mo, but off to greece in 2 weeks! cant wait, both taking our cameras Sep 04 15:28:19 great Sep 04 15:28:30 its always good to have multiple perspectives on an event Sep 04 15:28:33 work have a photo comp open, "fighting stigma" in mental health, so doing a mini world hdr photo :) Sep 04 15:29:07 do you have a mini boxing ring set up ? Sep 04 15:29:17 so far its made out of 12 shots stiched and twisted with people holding hands round a mini world, looks cool! Sep 04 15:29:28 have you seem mini world/planets? Sep 04 15:29:34 seen* Sep 04 15:29:49 nop? Sep 04 15:29:52 do a quick google image search, should make sense lol! Sep 04 15:30:10 i am on vnc it wouldnt help, everything goes slow Sep 04 15:31:41 lol will send u a link Sep 04 15:32:06 http://www.tripleman.com/images/20080417102120_ceperley%20meadow%20mini%20planet.jpg Sep 04 15:32:14 something like that Sep 04 15:32:17 but in hdr Sep 04 15:33:31 ohhh Noobmonk3y i have seen things like that before Sep 04 15:33:34 uber cool stuff Sep 04 15:33:40 (even tho its in 256color for me lol) Sep 04 15:34:25 hahaha well u get the jist of what i am doing lol Sep 04 15:35:10 indeed Sep 04 15:36:30 Noobmonk3y, do how do you take the panorama required Sep 04 15:36:37 have you got an uber fisheye lens? Sep 04 15:36:50 or do you just walk in a circle, the stitch Sep 04 15:36:53 then * Sep 04 15:37:15 haha no i use a normal lens and stitch 3-5 shots together, but it can be done with 1 normal photo too Sep 04 15:37:18 * lcuk notices you said stitch Sep 04 15:37:34 does need to be a full circle... Sep 04 15:37:50 photoshop helps :) Sep 04 15:38:14 maemoers, am i right in thinking fcam does stitching for panaramas Sep 04 15:38:17 or am i misremembering Sep 04 15:38:20 but with the hdr each photo is made up of 5 other photos so, 25 in total! Sep 04 15:38:26 yeah Sep 04 15:38:37 lcuk! the n900 does great pano shots :) Sep 04 15:40:28 http://www.tripleman.com/images/20080417102120_ceperley%20meadow%20mini%20planet.jpg Sep 04 15:40:40 since when is the world round? :p Sep 04 15:40:44 hahahaha Sep 04 15:40:56 MohammadAG, you have to understand Sep 04 15:41:01 these images are impressionist Sep 04 15:41:02 its not, i fake it to make people beleive, obviously Sep 04 15:41:03 <|R> 6000 years? :P Sep 04 15:41:18 and are designed to make you try and imagine a non flat world Sep 04 15:41:36 obvious balony, but some insane folks think like that Sep 04 15:41:44 would be cool if the world was a triangle Sep 04 15:42:00 LOL Sep 04 15:42:15 Noobmonk3y, hopefully in the next version Sep 04 15:42:19 xD Sep 04 15:42:22 yikes, that world makes me dizzy Sep 04 15:42:33 hahaha world v2, hackedc or unhacked?! Sep 04 15:42:56 i saw a video recently of someone underwater bubble fort, and for the first time in ages i got motion sickness watching it Sep 04 15:43:04 lol Sep 04 15:43:05 they dived down and went upside down and stuff to enter Sep 04 15:43:15 * lcuk finds it to help make you lot feel just as odd Sep 04 15:43:26 infact, MohammadAG you could :P Sep 04 15:43:33 youtube bubble fort or something Sep 04 15:43:56 its in a lake Sep 04 15:44:55 right back laters, gotta head home n cook a roast Sep 04 15:44:58 ciaooooooo Sep 04 15:45:54 * DocScrutinizer wonders what a cooked roast might taste like... probably crunchy Sep 04 15:46:27 nvm Sep 04 15:47:31 mixed roast, rust, and grill Sep 04 15:47:56 false friends Sep 04 15:47:57 * lcuk wonders what DocScrutinizer is drinking Sep 04 15:48:04 * lcuk orders one Sep 04 15:48:07 coffee, what else? Sep 04 15:48:21 reasonable enough Sep 04 15:48:51 rost(ger) == rust, grill(en) Sep 04 15:49:51 now all this gave me appetite for a roast es well :-D Sep 04 15:49:59 as* Sep 04 15:51:20 or, for lcuk: BACON!! Sep 04 15:53:02 seems reasonable enough Sep 04 15:53:08 * lcuk munches on roast bacon Sep 04 15:53:54 lcuk: you noticed my dbus-scripting madness I encountered on N900 (800 processes bringing device to a mad state)? Sep 04 15:54:43 no i have been juggling a new libliqbase update mostly today Sep 04 15:54:45 lcuk: I wonder how to tackle that Sep 04 15:55:01 umm, was like 2 days ago Sep 04 15:55:20 i mightv noticed it then, but have slepts since Sep 04 15:56:02 isnt 800 processes overkill? Sep 04 15:56:14 it actually was Sep 04 15:58:08 pkg dbus-scripting, set up to kick off a silly simple script when button event flies by, grew up to a monster with >800 identical dbus-script processes, largely rendering the device unusable. even ssh in failed, as no more free slot in process table :-/ Sep 04 15:59:08 basically a forkbomb Sep 04 15:59:53 BACON! Sep 04 16:00:14 a decent sysop learns how to deal with such threats before he may touch any productive engine. But on N900 me is a bit of lost on how to deal with it Sep 04 16:01:00 I somehow managed to kill it down with concurrent multiple killalls and init.d/dbus-scripting stop calls Sep 04 16:01:25 as luckily I had an open xterm Sep 04 16:02:17 (never thought I'd ever say that, but thanks to busybox (yuk) the killall call didn't spawn a new process Sep 04 16:02:24 ) Sep 04 16:03:20 hmm DocScrutinizer not sure its a problem Sep 04 16:03:49 errr, no? Sep 04 16:03:50 i could get a gun and shoot myself in the foot and no technological matters can stop me Sep 04 16:04:21 lcuk: autoaiming gun Sep 04 16:04:31 lcuk: sorry? Sep 04 16:04:34 kerio, ricochet Sep 04 16:04:45 autoaiming walls Sep 04 16:04:47 DocScrutinizer, what i mean is, is this not a problem with your script? Sep 04 16:04:51 since it doesnt do it by default Sep 04 16:04:52 ? Sep 04 16:05:10 well, the script worked for quite some weeks Sep 04 16:05:36 also the script is friggin simple, and should terminate no matter what Sep 04 16:06:20 plus it should get called only on rather rare events on dbus Sep 04 16:06:37 DocScrutinizer, if its a system memory leak and you have a script which reproduces it then great, follow up on it and stuff? Sep 04 16:06:47 namely button-press events Sep 04 16:06:59 nb: great in this context means theres a simple way for devs to reproduce and extinguish Sep 04 16:07:03 heh Sep 04 16:07:46 it's some madness in dbus-scripting package/daemon, or in dbus itself Sep 04 16:08:48 hi Sep 04 16:09:32 is anybody out there who does live streaming to the n900? Sep 04 16:09:43 lcuk: Sep 04 16:09:48 IroN900:~# cat /etc/dbus-scripts.d/playswoosh Sep 04 16:09:49 #!/bin/sh Sep 04 16:09:51 stored=/home/user/.slidestore Sep 04 16:09:52 slide=$(cat sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/slide/state) Sep 04 16:09:54 if [ X$slide == X$(cat $stored) ]; then exit 0; fi; Sep 04 16:09:55 if [ $slide == open ]; then /usr/bin/play-sound /usr/share/sounds/ui-charging_started.wav; fi; Sep 04 16:10:18 i can use mediatomb on my linuxbox to access the media data within n900s mediaplayer, no problem Sep 04 16:11:03 but i want redirect an arbitrary "live stream" to the n900 Sep 04 16:11:13 any ideas? Sep 04 16:11:54 umm Sep 04 16:11:57 + Sep 04 16:11:59 echo -n $slide >$stored Sep 04 16:12:04 BluesLee, theres a ustream.tv session i connect to quite regularly Sep 04 16:12:23 BluesLee: i streamed live tv to my n900 few weeks ago Sep 04 16:12:27 worked very nice (: Sep 04 16:12:44 DocScrutinizer, file a bug, is that the testcase you reproduced it on? Sep 04 16:13:10 if we had host mode working we could use all sorts of tv tuners Sep 04 16:13:12 secyritas: honstely, i want to stream live tv from the internet to my tv, which tools you used? Sep 04 16:13:12 :< Sep 04 16:13:19 yup, that's the script that's called. Then of course here's a config file for dbus-scripting Sep 04 16:13:34 BluesLee: that was nearly a test, i used a VLC Sep 04 16:13:47 #:soundonslide Sep 04 16:13:49 /etc/dbus-scripts.d/playswoosh * * org.freedesktop.Hal.Device Condition ButtonPressed cover Sep 04 16:13:53 lcuk: thats fine, how do you configure it? Sep 04 16:14:02 secyritas: thats fine, how do you configure it? Sep 04 16:14:05 BluesLee, IDK i just visited the website Sep 04 16:14:10 its a flash plugin :$ Sep 04 16:14:19 and worked with the stream i needed Sep 04 16:14:22 so never looked deeper Sep 04 16:14:25 BluesLee: omm.. cant remember and machine that has that config is over 500 kilometers away :-( Sep 04 16:14:28 lcuk: okay, you go the direct way Sep 04 16:14:28 lcuk: can't see how that would create 800+ processes in no time Sep 04 16:14:51 DocScrutinizer, me neither, so report it officially Sep 04 16:14:54 DocScrutinizer: if shit started creating events Sep 04 16:15:01 i am going anyway i have spent too much time faffing this afternoon Sep 04 16:15:11 * lcuk retires for the evening to #liqbase Sep 04 16:15:17 i remember that 384kbit data plan was not suffient to receive stream and n900 rejected some codecs so i put that idea behind.. Sep 04 16:16:29 MNZ: how's that audio routing of yours going? Sep 04 16:17:27 kerio, discovered that we can't get much from it really. Only thing that would benefit from skipping the cpu would be FM Receiver -> Output Sep 04 16:17:32 what's the difference between easy-debian and debian-chroot ? Sep 04 16:17:33 :( Sep 04 16:18:00 MNZ: what about dsp->a2dp? Sep 04 16:18:27 kerio, of course I'm still working on the hardware eq + replacing pulseaudio's speaker protection Sep 04 16:18:37 kerio, I haven't checked that, let me see Sep 04 16:19:25 i mean, i have a pair of bluetooth headphones with their own volume control Sep 04 16:19:58 so i wouldn't need anything but decoding (from mp3/aac), encoding (to a2dp) and transmitting Sep 04 16:22:47 kerio, ok there's nothing to override there. Decoding mp3/aac happens on the CPU and it just sends it to the codec Sep 04 16:22:55 huh? Sep 04 16:23:09 decoding mp3/aac is hw-accelerated, isn't it Sep 04 16:23:21 the only thing i see using my cpu is fucking pulseaudio Sep 04 16:23:33 kerio, uh no you got the thing a bit wrong Sep 04 16:23:58 PulseAudio is actually passing on stuff to the gst libraries, which decode mp3/ogg/whatever Sep 04 16:24:03 hold on Sep 04 16:24:05 no Sep 04 16:24:18 I mean the gst libraries, called from whatever prog, pass on stuff to PA Sep 04 16:24:44 so that's mafw (gst fits here somehow, I'm not familiar with mafw) -> pulseaudio -> alsa Sep 04 16:25:01 what happens in pulseaudio and why it uses 15% cpu is still a mystery Sep 04 16:25:12 mostly because all the relevant modules are closed source Sep 04 16:25:19 stupid pulseaudio :( Sep 04 16:25:26 of course on speaker output it uses about 30% Sep 04 16:25:46 i'm using bluetooth audio, mind you Sep 04 16:25:47 15% of those are filtering, which is the only part we really actually think we know it does Sep 04 16:25:50 so there's an additional encoding Sep 04 16:26:34 well the audio codec actually just handles DAC/ADC and deals with PCM exclusively. It doesn't decode/encode audio formats Sep 04 16:26:52 oh Sep 04 16:26:54 no, wait Sep 04 16:27:15 then mediaplayer/gst/whatever should be using cpu Sep 04 16:27:17 not pulseaudio Sep 04 16:27:21 it does Sep 04 16:27:26 on top of PA usage Sep 04 16:27:36 you have mafw-gst-renderer usage Sep 04 16:27:43 PA uses more cpu than mafw-gst-renderer Sep 04 16:27:44 :| Sep 04 16:27:47 I know Sep 04 16:27:51 and I can't figure out why Sep 04 16:27:54 Nokia: wtf man Sep 04 16:28:36 so basically mafw-gst-renderer is decoding mp3 and using less cpu than pulseaudio, which for the most part just has to move memory from one place to another (ie. route audio) Sep 04 16:28:53 I think that's why they are not open sourcing the modules Sep 04 16:28:58 they are embarrassed Sep 04 16:30:24 what happens if you remove the modules? Sep 04 16:30:34 nothing works Sep 04 16:30:47 what Sep 04 16:30:58 pulseaudio on... say, ubuntu, works without nokia modules Sep 04 16:31:22 yeah, but on n900, it doesn't. The stuff that handles calls expect these mods to be there Sep 04 16:31:23 There are custom modules to talk to teh phone bit Sep 04 16:31:33 However. Sep 04 16:31:46 Nokia is required to have the pulseaudio source of those modules supplied Sep 04 16:31:49 GPL requirements. Sep 04 16:31:55 SpeedEvil, I checked Sep 04 16:31:57 LGPL Sep 04 16:32:06 MNZ: PA does highpass filtering, possibly resampling with interpolation and antialiasing, and probably also some dynamic compression Sep 04 16:32:07 PA devs are so stupid they even got their license wrong Sep 04 16:32:35 on some 48k 16bit samples * 2 chan stereo, per second Sep 04 16:32:57 DocScrutinizer, do you mean for speaker out? what about headphones? Sep 04 16:33:27 for headphones the dynamic and hp processing may be moot Sep 04 16:33:37 DocScrutinizer: i'm using a2dp! Sep 04 16:33:48 still there's resampling, possibly useless mixing and attenuating, aso Sep 04 16:34:09 DocScrutinizer, but IIRC gst handles resampling..... Sep 04 16:34:19 pulseaudio has to move bits around Sep 04 16:34:26 that's something you can do in 20 bytes of asm Sep 04 16:34:30 and seriously, attenuation wouldn't use that much CPU Sep 04 16:34:33 (exaggerating, but you see my point) Sep 04 16:34:57 kerio: mixing two sources alone is a friggin lot more than just moving around bits Sep 04 16:35:11 what mix :| Sep 04 16:35:51 with only one source, and using bt a2dp headphones (that means no d2a, for instance), pulseaudio takes more cpu than mafw Sep 04 16:35:52 kerio, for more than one program playing audio Sep 04 16:36:02 the mixer that allows ringtones to appear in your music, for example Sep 04 16:37:04 DocScrutinizer: meh, that still makes the headphones switch from a2dp to hfp Sep 04 16:37:07 PA decided the pretty nice ALSA dmix plugn isn't good enough for them, and does its own mixing :-/ Sep 04 16:37:10 and stops the music, here Sep 04 16:37:31 DocScrutinizer, still, one would argue mixing wouldn't use cpu as much as mp3 decoding :/ I'm only guessing though, no hard numbers Sep 04 16:38:22 it's known PA is a greedy crap Sep 04 16:39:03 meh someone should pressure nokia to release sources Sep 04 16:39:24 someone should break in the nokia hq and release everythin Sep 04 16:39:26 g Sep 04 16:39:43 and depending on how carelessly ported to arm arch, might happily blast away doing fp ops simulated in sw, like it were running on a i7 Sep 04 16:40:27 DocScrutinizer: eeeeeeeeeew >Xp Sep 04 16:40:30 would someone volunteer to profile pulseaudio? pretty please? Sep 04 16:44:08 where do these guys hang out? -->http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_on_Debian Sep 04 16:44:23 jpinx-eeepc: what guys? Sep 04 16:45:00 working on maemoon_debian Sep 04 16:45:04 Check trhe history of the page Sep 04 16:45:09 Find what nicks edited it. Sep 04 16:45:12 Google them Sep 04 16:46:26 jpinx-eeepc: if you are referring to Easy Debian, then quole is he one Sep 04 16:47:03 Venemo_N900: no - I am referring to -->http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_on_Debian Sep 04 16:47:41 jpinx-eeepc: ah... okay Sep 04 16:47:58 but nevermind - I'm still trying to get ssh over usb to work:/ Sep 04 16:48:26 jpinx-eeepc: hm, it should be effortless Sep 04 16:48:39 all you need is USB networking Sep 04 16:48:53 Mad Developer gives you that Sep 04 16:48:55 Venemo_N900: not according to http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking Sep 04 16:49:21 who/what is Mad Developer ? Sep 04 16:49:50 jpinx-eeepc: it is a package you can install from the app manager Sep 04 16:50:20 * jpinx-eeepc searches the wiki Sep 04 16:50:43 jpinx-eeepc: search the appmanager instead Sep 04 16:51:01 There is no page titled "mad developer". :/ Sep 04 16:51:17 jpinx-eeepc: it is a component for MADDE... but it lets you do usb networking with 2 clicks Sep 04 16:51:23 the wiki seems to be relatively little use :/ Sep 04 16:51:50 jpinx-eeepc: the wiki is great, but it doesn't have everything Sep 04 16:51:59 ok - I have to disconnect and reconnec the n900 to use the app mngr Sep 04 16:53:26 * jpinx-eeepc looks for a simple download first Sep 04 16:53:59 Get it from maemo.org/packages Sep 04 16:54:21 sheesh - it'salmost 400Mbs - this could take until tomorrow ;) Sep 04 16:55:56 nOOO Sep 04 16:56:05 you misunderstand again Sep 04 16:56:14 wait a minute Sep 04 16:56:55 Anyone know what profiling tools for linux on arm? Only oprofile seems available and valgrind has just been recently ported (May 2010) Sep 04 16:59:09 Venemo_N900: not sure what you mean - I searched and found http://wiki.maemo.org/MADDE and now I am downloading the app Sep 04 16:59:22 Well Sep 04 16:59:27 you shouldn't Sep 04 16:59:48 * jpinx-eeepc stops Sep 04 17:00:14 Mad developer is not in MADDE, it is installable for the device from the repo Sep 04 17:00:30 jpinx-eeepc: I digged it out for you Sep 04 17:00:34 what section of the repo? system? Sep 04 17:00:58 is it in extras? Sep 04 17:01:06 jpinx-eeepc: extras repo, development category Sep 04 17:01:08 http://maemo.org/packages/view/mad-developer/ Sep 04 17:01:11 here it is Sep 04 17:01:27 choose the one from Extras, not the -devel one Sep 04 17:02:17 thanks :) -- I'll swap the connection over and see what I can find ;) Sep 04 17:02:35 k Sep 04 17:03:01 just select the "usb_ether" driver, then you can configure the connection Sep 04 17:08:22 Venemo_N900: ok it's getting that Sep 04 17:08:42 Okay Sep 04 17:09:16 jpinxN900: you need to configure the connection on your PC, too Sep 04 17:09:19 join syncd in 96seconds :/ Sep 04 17:10:06 not sure why the wifi is so mujch slower on the N900 Sep 04 17:10:16 Powersaving screwups Sep 04 17:10:26 what does ping www.google.com do Sep 04 17:10:41 me? Sep 04 17:10:43 yes Sep 04 17:10:51 moment Sep 04 17:11:02 12 packets transmitted, 12 packets received, 0% packet loss Sep 04 17:11:02 round-trip min/avg/max = 54.046/120.389/243.408 ms Sep 04 17:11:09 This is with powersaving on, and behaving well Sep 04 17:11:34 With powersaving off, it's 50-60ms Sep 04 17:12:06 SpeedEvil: 148 Sep 04 17:12:21 Any packet loss? Sep 04 17:12:28 And is it varying much? Sep 04 17:13:28 not really Sep 04 17:13:53 Is it possible you're going through some sort of firewall? Sep 04 17:13:54 youhave to be root toping? how sad isthat? Sep 04 17:14:30 SpeedEvil: same connection as my eeepc Sep 04 17:14:58 jpinxN900: interesting. Sep 04 17:15:07 I'll look at it' ping when I swapback Sep 04 17:15:35 but it is certainly much slower through here Sep 04 17:19:15 What version of arm do we use on the n900? Sep 04 17:20:27 TI OMAP 3530 Sep 04 17:21:02 MNZ: ARMv7l Sep 04 17:23:32 SpeedEvil, 4 Sep 04 17:24:13 err - yes Sep 04 17:31:14 someone needs to edit the wiki to change udevadm control --reload-rules to udevadm control --reload_rules Sep 04 17:31:37 I tried but it doesn't ike me Sep 04 17:32:28 How so? Sep 04 17:33:11 jpinxN900: just click the edit button on the right Sep 04 17:33:43 dunno just refuses to accept after I do the maths test Sep 04 17:34:05 and yes-- I can add :) Sep 04 17:34:13 Hm. Did you login? Sep 04 17:34:46 nope - I don't have an account Sep 04 17:35:18 and I was told to not bother Sep 04 17:36:31 ok this mad thing has installed and I have config'd the host while I was waiting Sep 04 17:36:34 Hm, why not? Sep 04 17:37:15 so whatto do next? The usb cable has been pluggedin all the time Sep 04 17:38:00 jpinxN900: select usb networking in mad dev Sep 04 17:38:05 then configure it Sep 04 17:38:06 * jpinxN900 staysout of irc/wiki politics :) Sep 04 17:38:34 from then on, "pc suite mode" will connect with usb networking Sep 04 17:38:38 where do I find mad dev Sep 04 17:39:06 In your application menu Sep 04 17:39:22 I thought I gave you a link to the package Sep 04 17:40:02 i lost my only usb µsd reader :( Sep 04 17:40:10 did you guys see it somewhere? Sep 04 17:40:54 ok unplugged and replugged Sep 04 17:42:04 but mad dcevelonlyoffers mass storage Sep 04 17:43:05 Only mass storage? lol! Sep 04 17:43:54 I chose PC Suite when plugging in Sep 04 17:44:06 Then? Sep 04 17:44:34 what's the issue? Sep 04 17:45:21 you said to select mad developer Sep 04 17:45:52 which I did and it only offers mass storage Sep 04 17:46:00 jpinxN900: okay... perhaps it's because English is not my native language Sep 04 17:46:15 so.. launch Mad Developer from the app menu Sep 04 17:46:25 then configure it Sep 04 17:46:37 then select "pc suite mode" Sep 04 17:47:11 configure? Sep 04 17:47:47 Select the usb networking driver Sep 04 17:48:04 then set the ip addresses Sep 04 17:49:03 the edit button for usb0 is not active Sep 04 17:49:13 Again Sep 04 17:49:27 FIRST, select the usb networking driver Sep 04 17:49:39 wait.... Sep 04 17:50:58 There are like 3 buttons on that UI Sep 04 17:52:33 okso itis a server or a client? Sep 04 17:52:52 Neither. Sep 04 17:53:25 it just loads a driver with the settings you input Sep 04 17:53:59 this making no sense to me atall Sep 04 17:54:06 :( Sep 04 17:54:07 What? Sep 04 17:54:25 ssh is usually server/client Sep 04 17:54:39 okay Sep 04 17:54:48 :) Sep 04 17:54:55 what settings am I putting in? Sep 04 17:55:22 I was referring to networking settings Sep 04 17:55:53 if you have the SSH server running on the N900, it will work on USB notwork, too, if this is your question Sep 04 17:56:40 the network settings asks for dhcp client or server or static Sep 04 17:57:53 Okay... seems that you don't really know what those things mean, do you? Sep 04 17:58:00 no problem Sep 04 17:58:11 I recommend setting a static IP to the device Sep 04 17:58:18 usually the client doesn't need anything excdeptto allow ssh incomig connections Sep 04 17:58:43 1. set a static IP to the device Sep 04 17:58:58 2. set up the USB network on your PC Sep 04 17:59:41 Of course in this case you should set a static IP to the PC too Sep 04 18:04:09 Venemo_N900: ok - I gave up typing on the n900 ;) Sep 04 18:04:38 presumably now that the apps are installed I can configure it while offline? Sep 04 18:07:49 jpinx-eeepc: yes, I think Sep 04 18:07:58 pfft Sep 04 18:08:00 static IPs are lame Sep 04 18:08:07 just bridge usb0 to your LAN Sep 04 18:08:18 let it autoconfigure Sep 04 18:08:41 luke-jr: for connecting his N900 to his PC, static IP should be good enough Sep 04 18:08:53 luke-jr: I don't have a LAN Sep 04 18:09:45 Venemo_N900: I really appreciate thee time you're putting into this - I have set up ssh before and run x over iut, but never done a USB connection before Sep 04 18:10:06 jpinx-eeepc: WAN, whatever Sep 04 18:10:15 everyone has a LAN Sep 04 18:10:21 it's just a question of the size of it Sep 04 18:10:32 luke-jr: I don't have my own WAN either ;) Sep 04 18:10:38 doesn't need to be your own Sep 04 18:11:16 * jpinx-eeepc is on a non-secure pulic WAP that uses aa browser login - and only allows one devvice per password Sep 04 18:11:59 Hmm... Sep 04 18:12:05 hence my need for ssh by USB cable connect to the N900 Sep 04 18:12:54 I am thinking it is a means of getting a keyboaard that I can actually use on teh n900, and at the same time use the internet wifi via the n900 Sep 04 18:13:44 jpinx-eeepc: interesting thought Sep 04 18:13:50 tbh, if I am stuck with the n900's own kbd, or virtual kbd, I'll sell it :( Sep 04 18:14:04 the onscreen kbd sux badlyc Sep 04 18:14:30 and the hardware one is ok for my girlfriend (5ft thai girl) ;) Sep 04 18:14:46 jpinx-eeepc: haha Sep 04 18:14:51 but even she can't "type" on it - it's one finger per hand--- Sep 04 18:15:04 jpinx-eeepc: I like its hw kbd Sep 04 18:15:34 jpinx-eeepc, people easily achieve 30-40 words per minute on it, some even more Sep 04 18:15:35 the eeepc kbd is about the smallest kbd one can actually type on in the tradiditonal way Sep 04 18:16:24 jpinx-eeepc: this is my first phone with a qwerty Sep 04 18:16:28 MNZ: I daresay some people with tiny fingertips and loads of practice can - but I am 2 metres tall, weight 100Kgs and have hands to match :) Sep 04 18:17:05 jpinx-eeepc: yeah Sep 04 18:17:09 jpinx-eeepc: I type on the N900 with thumbs Sep 04 18:17:20 me too. Sep 04 18:17:25 I get about 30-35wpm Sep 04 18:17:37 I bought the n900 on teh basis that people told me there was an external kbd option in the works, but the reality is otherwise Sep 04 18:17:37 that's after about a weeks practice whern my laptop broke Sep 04 18:17:57 jpinx-eeepc: some people do use bluetooth keyboards Sep 04 18:18:15 yes - I am exploreing bluetooth kbdsh Sep 04 18:18:33 but I can not find a compatible one here (bangkok) Sep 04 18:19:17 so - the long and short of it is that I really want ssh over usb Sep 04 18:19:27 So do. Sep 04 18:19:43 http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking Sep 04 18:19:59 jpinx-eeepc: order from ebay? Sep 04 18:20:02 SpeedEvil: been there, didn't work Sep 04 18:20:37 works for me. Sep 04 18:20:38 I *really* want ssh over usb Sep 04 18:20:40 Why diddn't it work Sep 04 18:21:10 jpinx-eeepc: you obviously haven't typed on a C760 Sep 04 18:21:14 SpeedEvil: I told him to try Mad Developer Sep 04 18:21:23 Venemo_N900: had me install a mad developer thing Sep 04 18:21:36 but that is really confusing the issue Sep 04 18:21:49 C760 was usable "in the traditional way" Sep 04 18:22:04 and only 2x as thick as N810 Sep 04 18:22:25 Venemo_N900: ok - I have mad developer open Sep 04 18:22:36 what exactly am I inputting? Sep 04 18:22:55 IP address 192.168.1.15 Sep 04 18:23:01 Static Sep 04 18:23:11 netmask 255.255.255.0 Sep 04 18:23:19 Yck default route Sep 04 18:23:29 I just have a script on the host sife that does 'ifconfig usb0 192.168.2.14 Sep 04 18:23:29 route add 192.168.2.15 usb0 Sep 04 18:23:29 ssh root@phone ifconfig usb0 192.168.2.15 Sep 04 18:23:29 ssh -N -D 8888 root@phoneusb Sep 04 18:23:31 *tick Sep 04 18:23:32 and that's it Sep 04 18:23:44 a92.168.1.14 Sep 04 18:23:53 jpinx-eeepc: what's your issue? it should work Sep 04 18:23:59 to give me a socks proxy on the phone Sep 04 18:24:04 Works fine Sep 04 18:24:18 jpinx-eeepc: did you set it up on the computer, too? Sep 04 18:24:18 Once the setup tweaks on the n900 side have been done Sep 04 18:24:46 hmmh, in which component are the contacts backup'ed? Sep 04 18:24:57 “communication and calendar”? Sep 04 18:25:05 Venemo_N900: i hit configure, and it goes to a screen with usbO showing no settings Sep 04 18:25:31 jpinx-eeepc: hm. Sep 04 18:25:49 jpinx-eeepc: I have no ida then Sep 04 18:26:02 jpinx-eeepc: it works for me with 2 clicks Sep 04 18:26:41 which 2 clicks? Sep 04 18:27:06 jpinx-eeepc: or 3 Sep 04 18:27:26 is there something to be done to mad developer to make it active? Sep 04 18:28:26 SpeedEvil: I worked through the wiki and just did not get a result, network is unreachable Sep 04 18:28:35 jpinx-eeepc: http://the-gadgeteer.com/assets/c760-9.jpg Sep 04 18:28:47 jpinx-eeepc: the removable cards are CompactFlash, for size comparison Sep 04 18:29:36 I *really* want ssh over usb to the n900 ;) Sep 04 18:30:33 jpinx-eeepc: Is the interface up on both sides? Sep 04 18:30:43 jpinx-eeepc: Does it show incrementing packets when pinged? Sep 04 18:30:50 jpinx-eeepc: Are the routes correct? Sep 04 18:31:46 is there a way to set the phone to not connect to any gsm networks but still connect to wifi? besides removing sim card... Sep 04 18:32:56 SpeedEvil: after following the wiki for the eeepc setup ifconfig does not show any usb Sep 04 18:33:20 you have the correct module on your eeepc? Sep 04 18:33:22 It's loaded? Sep 04 18:33:31 Hey again Sep 04 18:33:32 Module or inbuilt kernel option Sep 04 18:33:33 I got "no cellular network available"... Sep 04 18:34:14 SpeedEvil: kernel 2.6.32 Sep 04 18:34:24 * Venemo_N900 is on a train right now Sep 04 18:34:50 jpinx-eeepc: You have the cdc_ether module loaded? Sep 04 18:35:26 Do you get syslogs like Sep 04 18:35:37 sure Sep 04 18:35:45 what do you want me to paste? Sep 04 18:36:00 Sep 4 19:19:55 darkstar kernel: [32958.196262] cdc_ether 1-1:1.8: usb_probe_inter Sep 04 18:36:00 face Sep 04 18:36:00 Sep 4 19:19:55 darkstar kernel: [32958.196267] cdc_ether 1-1:1.8: usb_probe_interface - got id Sep 04 18:36:00 Sep 4 19:19:55 darkstar kernel: [32958.197910] usb0: register 'cdc_ether' at usb-0000:00:1d.7-1, CDC Ethernet Device, 0a:f3:7f:42:42:42 Sep 04 18:36:02 on boot Sep 04 18:36:11 Err Sep 04 18:36:13 not boot Sep 04 18:36:14 plugin Sep 04 18:36:20 Hi Sep 04 18:36:28 After you select 'pc suite' mode Sep 04 18:36:53 ok - hang on while I unplug and replug... Sep 04 18:38:00 where are the upstart scripts kept, if there are any? Sep 04 18:39:20 hey just wondering, does the n900 support ovi suite or nokia suite? Sep 04 18:39:54 SpeedEvil: http://paste.debian.net/87805/ Sep 04 18:40:20 MNZ: /etc/event.d/ afaik Sep 04 18:40:25 MNZ: there's a "tablet mode" package Sep 04 18:40:33 it adds another button to the power menu Sep 04 18:40:38 shuts down the phone Sep 04 18:40:43 leaving you with a tablet Sep 04 18:40:56 kerio, sweet will try that. Sep 04 18:41:11 Venemo_N900, thanks that's it Sep 04 18:41:28 jpinx-eeepc: Now - what does ifconfig n900 show? Sep 04 18:41:48 bef0rd: N900 isn't a phone Sep 04 18:41:51 You may need to ifconfig n900 up first Sep 04 18:42:06 * SpeedEvil stabs luke-jr with a rottweiler named Sue. Sep 04 18:42:19 SpeedEvil: rottweilers aren't named Sue Sep 04 18:42:38 This one is, and he's very sensitive about the name. Sep 04 18:42:46 I know the whole story, I just wanted to know if it was compatible with any software to manage contacts Sep 04 18:42:48 I have a shotgun. Sep 04 18:42:59 I has a flavour. Sep 04 18:43:14 do rottweilers taste good? Sep 04 18:43:17 SpeedEvil: inet addr:192.168.2.14 Sep 04 18:43:30 No, rthey cast detect evil. Sep 04 18:43:48 jpinx-eeepc: Right - now on the n900 side - if you ping that address - do you get a response? Sep 04 18:44:24 bef0rd: sorry, what's your issue? Sep 04 18:45:16 SpeedEvil: cool- yes Sep 04 18:45:43 Ok - the connection is working you need to setup routing on both sides Sep 04 18:45:43 hey Venemo_N900, I just want to see if I can remove some useless contacts that got added when I installed the msn-pecan library Sep 04 18:45:49 and ifconfig -a in the n900 shows usb0 with 192.168.1.15 Sep 04 18:47:02 SpeedEvil: ok what does that need? Sep 04 18:47:43 bef0rd: beware with that, it may delete your contacts from MSN, too Sep 04 18:48:26 yea I don't mind, I actually tried to delete them from msn too, still doesn't work gonna delete all contacts and try again :P Sep 04 18:49:00 how can i make firefox my default browser for maemo? Sep 04 18:49:25 short answer: you can't Sep 04 18:49:36 [lolloo]: Try browser switchboard Sep 04 18:49:44 bef0rd: if you don't mind, then just delete them Sep 04 18:50:05 bef0rd: note that Pecan can be quite buggy sometimes Sep 04 18:50:27 hey ToJa92 Sep 04 18:50:38 SpeedEvil: at the moment ssh is telling me no route to host, so what do I need ? Sep 04 18:50:44 Venemo_N900, yup, I've got some crashes, going to try ovi suite, somebody said it was compatible on a forum Sep 04 18:50:49 where is that switch bord? Sep 04 18:51:13 [lolloo]: Should be in app manager Sep 04 18:51:24 I think it's in the extras repository Sep 04 18:51:36 cool lemme check Sep 04 18:51:47 bef0rd: I recommend you to try Butterfly for MSN Sep 04 18:51:57 bef0rd: and yes, Ovi suite is compatible... to some extent Sep 04 18:52:11 why? why butterfly? Sep 04 18:52:51 why isnt E-buddy not supported yet? Sep 04 18:53:00 nor Fring Sep 04 18:54:23 lolloo: Pecan wants to readd all my deleted contacts on every login Sep 04 18:55:16 Venemo_N900, I have that issue too,I get like 20 confirmation messages on every login.. Sep 04 19:00:40 hi Sep 04 19:00:49 I got disconnected again Sep 04 19:01:11 hi Sep 04 19:01:17 I'm in the middle of nowhere, there is barely some network coverage here... Sep 04 19:01:18 wb Sep 04 19:01:35 what client r u using for irc Sep 04 19:01:42 on ur n900 Sep 04 19:01:45 ? Sep 04 19:01:47 lolloo: Communi Sep 04 19:02:04 for n900? Sep 04 19:02:10 lolloo: yes Sep 04 19:02:10 compatibile? Sep 04 19:02:13 thx Sep 04 19:02:23 is it on app manager? Sep 04 19:02:28 lolloo: its author sent me a .deb :) Sep 04 19:02:33 wow Sep 04 19:02:40 lolloo: it is unreleased (yet) Sep 04 19:03:00 mmm is it better than Xchat? Sep 04 19:03:03 lolloo: but you can get XChat from the repos Sep 04 19:03:14 ya am using it now Sep 04 19:03:25 lolloo: it is more lightweight Sep 04 19:03:30 ahaa Sep 04 19:03:35 ur right Sep 04 19:03:41 lolloo: and I'm planning to contribute to it Sep 04 19:03:42 but not many options Sep 04 19:03:54 lolloo: right Sep 04 19:03:59 how do u right in red to me? Sep 04 19:04:06 write Sep 04 19:04:06 I like xchat, I actually switched to xchat on my desktop too now Sep 04 19:04:24 because he adds your name first Sep 04 19:04:24 lolloo: what do you mean? Sep 04 19:04:26 yes not same on linux Sep 04 19:04:32 lolloo, red text Sep 04 19:04:42 your replying to me Sep 04 19:04:48 using my name Sep 04 19:04:52 merlin1991: XChat is good, but not finger friendly Sep 04 19:04:54 lolloo: Sep 04 19:05:03 how do u do that? Sep 04 19:05:04 lolloo: yes, I am Sep 04 19:05:09 how? Sep 04 19:05:17 I write your name in my message Sep 04 19:05:27 lolloo: when your write someone name in the msg it gets highlighted in red Sep 04 19:05:28 then it gets highlighted for you Sep 04 19:05:42 lolloo, merlin1991 is right Sep 04 19:06:04 Venemo_N900 is this right? Sep 04 19:06:11 didt worl Sep 04 19:06:15 work Sep 04 19:06:16 lolloo: YES! Sep 04 19:06:25 it did nice Sep 04 19:06:37 lolloo: it only highlights for the person whose name is there Sep 04 19:06:49 merlin1991, if your name refers to your birthdate, then we were born in the same year Sep 04 19:06:51 so u see it red in ur end? Sep 04 19:06:59 lolloo: yes! Sep 04 19:07:03 awesome Sep 04 19:07:05 * luke-jr rubs his eyes Sep 04 19:07:09 hehehe Sep 04 19:07:10 :) Sep 04 19:07:11 true Sep 04 19:07:12 1991-births are allowed on IRC now? Sep 04 19:07:28 luke-jr: why, are they not? :P Sep 04 19:07:50 yes luke-jr Sep 04 19:07:52 Venemo_N900: you have to be a certain age to use FreeNode Sep 04 19:07:59 and if you check the logs, I'm here since quite some time :D Sep 04 19:08:07 Venemo_N900, yeah it is Sep 04 19:08:14 luke-jr: I'm 19. That not enough for ya? Sep 04 19:08:20 Venemo_N900: I feel old. Sep 04 19:08:38 luke-jr: you don't need to :) Sep 04 19:09:37 luke-jr: there is a saying in Hungary, which roughly translates to "you're only as old as you feel" Sep 04 19:09:43 * jpinx-eeepc is ssh'd over usb - thanks for all the help SpeedEvil Venemo_N900 Sep 04 19:09:58 jpinx-eeepc: you're welcome! Sep 04 19:10:02 * luke-jr still associates 90s with 4-years-old Sep 04 19:10:09 jpinx-eeepc: you see, I knew it would work Sep 04 19:10:31 luke-jr: 1990s or 1890s? Sep 04 19:11:14 luke-jr: :P Sep 04 19:11:59 Venemo_N900: where I come efrom it's "You're only as old as the woman you feel" :) Sep 04 19:12:15 nice Sep 04 19:12:22 jpinx-eeepc: lol Sep 04 19:12:29 Does any body know if there is an irc channel for neopwn (v2)? Sep 04 19:12:41 Anyways, I'll quit. my battery is nearly depleted and I wish to listen to music Sep 04 19:13:17 merlin1991 hiii Sep 04 19:13:50 So, goodbye Sep 04 19:14:03 merlin1991 how are you Sep 04 19:15:29 This optification idea was totally horrible. There are lots of broken packages because of this Sep 04 19:15:46 moin Sep 04 19:15:57 Why not just mount /usr to the internal flash card instead, like most decent unices do Sep 04 19:19:23 zap: you're a year late - in short, would cause issues with reflashing, root is faster, that sort of stuff. It's hideous but the other solutions were, too Sep 04 19:21:24 hmhm, is there a note applet which would access notes from inside the calendar/tasks/notes system? Sep 04 19:23:41 too bad that nokia is almost stopping the support for the n900 completely with the release of meego.. :< Sep 04 19:28:18 hello Sep 04 19:32:04 any one tried compiz on n900? Sep 04 19:32:31 anyone knows if there is perl for n900? Sep 04 19:33:33 afaik should be there Sep 04 19:33:38 perl is on there by default i think, tho cpan doesnt work Sep 04 19:33:56 humm so i can run pl scripts ? Sep 04 19:34:33 those that dont need perl stuff thats not been ported, yes Sep 04 19:34:48 well its for xchat Sep 04 19:35:02 irssi? Sep 04 19:39:39 seems perl isnt on mines acording xchat Sep 04 19:40:13 btw is there an rar app for n900 to ? Sep 04 19:43:41 <`Francesca_Lucch> anyways Sep 04 19:45:39 so uhm can anyone help ? Sep 04 19:52:55 any nokia guys around? Sep 04 19:54:17 anybody who has access to internal bug reports around? Sep 04 19:54:31 trumee: why do you ask something like that? Sep 04 19:54:55 Lynoure: i need to find out about an internal bug report. Sep 04 19:54:59 trumee: if you don't have access, they cannot really tell you what's there either, unless you show them an NDA Sep 04 19:55:33 Lynoure: relax i have a question about opensource code only. Sep 04 19:56:01 trumee: better luck catching people in work network during work hours Sep 04 19:56:08 :) Sep 04 19:56:36 Lynoure: yeah, probably. although sometimes timeless is around. Sep 04 19:59:04 can anyone tell me what there if for the n800 beyond the last official nokia release? Sep 04 19:59:19 I heard about some community based distributions?? Sep 04 20:00:53 npt, obviously theres a load of community apps, there is an in testing community ssu for n8x0 also Sep 04 20:01:12 there is more on the talk.maemo.org forums relating to this Sep 04 20:06:52 any idea when nitroid with phone functionality gets released? Sep 04 20:07:27 Samhita, ask the nitdroid guys Sep 04 20:07:39 having working phone service is taken for granted round here ;) Sep 04 20:07:59 i thought they already did calls Sep 04 20:08:04 or maybe it was just data Sep 04 20:08:20 they do calls Sep 04 20:08:25 but afaik audio doesn't get routed Sep 04 20:08:36 at least you can miss call with it Sep 04 20:08:52 oh Manchester police, how you do us proud. Sep 04 20:08:54 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11187747 Sep 04 20:09:02 lcuk: what I mean is, is there a Community based distribution for the thing? Sep 04 20:09:11 I heard that ubuntu was going to port to it, etc Sep 04 20:09:38 tx luck and MohammadAG Sep 04 20:09:40 npt, the n8x0 has at numerous times had various things Sep 04 20:09:44 you will be thinking of Mer Sep 04 20:09:46 MohammadAG: heh, that's what i do with most of my calls Sep 04 20:09:46 lcuk * Sep 04 20:09:54 kerio, you suck :P Sep 04 20:10:06 calls are made to be rejected, not missed Sep 04 20:10:07 lcuk: is mir still around? Sep 04 20:10:14 mer's dead Sep 04 20:10:16 why can't people use msn/jabber/skype to contact me Sep 04 20:10:17 ffs Sep 04 20:10:20 it is, but its not moved anywhere for a while Sep 04 20:10:28 hmm Sep 04 20:10:31 stuck in a basement Sep 04 20:10:40 is it better than the last nokia release? Sep 04 20:10:42 was planning to resurrect it Sep 04 20:10:44 no Sep 04 20:10:50 it was unfinished Sep 04 20:11:01 is there anything that is better than the last nokia release? Sep 04 20:11:01 base it on Ubuntu 9.10 Sep 04 20:11:02 maemo diablo is rocking on 8x0 though Sep 04 20:11:03 MohammadAG: just ignoring them is easier Sep 04 20:11:05 add mirror Sep 04 20:11:10 gives you plausible deniability Sep 04 20:11:11 and its pretty close to fremantle :) Sep 04 20:11:12 kerio, that works too Sep 04 20:11:26 Nokia N900 - a phone for people who hate talking Sep 04 20:11:34 ishmm Sep 04 20:11:37 npt, what was wrong with the nokia release Sep 04 20:11:50 kerio, calls work on the n900? Sep 04 20:11:57 on maemo at least Sep 04 20:12:01 * satmd heard there's a new release planned Sep 04 20:12:11 lcuk: 'twas a joke Sep 04 20:12:19 lcuk: nothing is wrong with it, just looking for a more updated kernel, etc Sep 04 20:12:31 then look at the community ssu Sep 04 20:12:32 you know Sep 04 20:12:34 phone for ners Sep 04 20:12:36 *d Sep 04 20:12:52 * lcuk tells his girlfriend and son that they are nerds Sep 04 20:12:52 what is the community "ssu" ? Sep 04 20:13:00 seamless update Sep 04 20:13:01 lol Sep 04 20:13:08 my son will be a nerd Sep 04 20:13:10 seamless software update* Sep 04 20:13:18 one of mine is more nerdier than the other Sep 04 20:13:24 I don;t have one yet but when I do, he (or she) will be a nerd Sep 04 20:13:27 but luke uses the house 900 for facebook Sep 04 20:13:39 lol Sep 04 20:13:39 ahh, interesting Sep 04 20:13:42 so Sep 04 20:13:47 can you link me to the ssu? Sep 04 20:14:59 guys ? Sep 04 20:15:11 npt: hildon-application-manager Sep 04 20:15:19 does anyone know howto creat an m3u playlist for n900 ? Sep 04 20:15:21 npt, theres a few threads about it Sep 04 20:15:22 the best and shortest link to SSU Sep 04 20:15:27 ok Sep 04 20:15:29 lemme see which was the most uptodate Sep 04 20:16:24 Ev'ning Sep 04 20:16:31 thank lcuk Sep 04 20:16:32 lo Jaffa Sep 04 20:16:35 you are a nice guy Sep 04 20:16:40 hey Jaffa \o Sep 04 20:16:53 (another nice guy :p) Sep 04 20:17:38 bah, nothing beats grumpy doc Sep 04 20:17:49 oh yeah? well good to meet you then Jaffa. Sep 04 20:19:23 http://maemo.org/community/maemo-developers/re-community_updates_for_diablo/?org_openpsa_qbpager_net_nemein_discussion_posts_page=1#b22ba91c50ad11dfb5a7f598e311e47be47b Sep 04 20:19:41 npt, thats not the newest but it indicates the list of fixes in the update Sep 04 20:19:41 thanks lcuk! Sep 04 20:19:49 * lcuk is actually having trouble getting info Sep 04 20:19:51 wtf? Sep 04 20:19:58 so it's like updates to a regular distro? Sep 04 20:20:06 and we only just bloody did this i think my head has melted or somethin Sep 04 20:20:13 like apt-get update or emerge --sync type deal? Sep 04 20:21:18 it updates like diablo ssu does using the app manager, but it does not include as wide ranging patches that a full OS update will include Sep 04 20:21:34 and apt-get mechanism has afaik never been officially supported for any update Sep 04 20:21:46 since the device ships without root required :P Sep 04 20:22:02 ooh, community SSU for diablo? sorry for the noise then Sep 04 20:22:19 heh DocScrutinizer yeah Sep 04 20:22:32 its the one that I don't know much about but that we should be learning from Sep 04 20:22:56 Jaffa, how was the rest of the week with your trainees Sep 04 20:23:08 are they fully capable all set to go now? Sep 04 20:23:11 hmm ok reading Sep 04 20:23:38 still a bit confused but if it will update me from the really old last nokia release, even partially, I want it. Sep 04 20:23:40 : ) Sep 04 20:24:27 * DocScrutinizer feels like throwing together a few dirt cheap scripts with zenity Sep 04 20:25:32 npt, it will take more digging i think, its having its patches put onto git and organising it from the maemo.org side to be cleanly provided rather than the smaller scale tests Sep 04 20:26:38 lcuk: gotcha, that makes more sense I suppose. Sep 04 20:27:18 Well, I am glad to hear things are happening. I had been hoping there would be a "hacker edition" like there was with 2008 for the n770 Sep 04 20:27:31 but this is still WAY cooler than nothing Sep 04 20:27:36 heh Sep 04 20:27:48 lcuk: In two days they fixed a bug each and closed another as cannot reproduce/fixed already. Sep 04 20:27:50 the issue with a hacker edition is the powervr mostly Sep 04 20:27:53 lcuk: Which is good. Sep 04 20:28:23 npt, since the system ended up making much more use of the silicon on the omap3 than previous generations Sep 04 20:28:31 it would be much harder to do Sep 04 20:28:45 but try just installing telescope :) Sep 04 20:29:08 even without a major system update, it can change the way you feel about your device :) Sep 04 20:29:29 Jaffa, heh, that is good news then Sep 04 20:30:06 what IS telescope? Sep 04 20:30:24 guess you guys can help with creat m3u for n900 Sep 04 20:30:29 seems it's some eyecandy Sep 04 20:31:09 which had been supposed to be impossible previously? Sep 04 20:31:32 DocScrutinizer, yeah Sep 04 20:31:47 the dashboard on the n900 was one of the major points and uses of the powervr Sep 04 20:31:53 * DocScrutinizer hates eyecandy :-P Sep 04 20:32:21 and telescope manages the same effect iwth some low level compositing and x11 magic Sep 04 20:32:24 ahh Sep 04 20:32:38 this I will try I guess Sep 04 20:32:46 just to see what it looks like Sep 04 20:32:57 I can always reflash if I don't like it Sep 04 20:33:01 indeed Sep 04 20:33:05 or just uninstall telescope Sep 04 20:33:14 npt, but whilst you are talking, dont mention usb host mode to DocScrutinizer Sep 04 20:33:17 he shouts :P Sep 04 20:33:28 WUT? Sep 04 20:33:34 * lcuk giggles Sep 04 20:33:34 I am confused? Sep 04 20:33:45 nevermind Sep 04 20:33:51 ok Sep 04 20:33:52 insider gaga Sep 04 20:34:02 gaga as well, but I meant gag Sep 04 20:34:07 a regression in the n900 with hostmode occured and the n8x0 can do it easily whilst n900 cannot yet Sep 04 20:34:08 does it have to do with the ps3 stuff Sep 04 20:34:23 not at all Sep 04 20:34:26 no, thats feasible from n900 :P Sep 04 20:34:28 ahh Sep 04 20:34:33 I know Sep 04 20:34:40 though ps-freedom is a cool hack Sep 04 20:34:42 also from the n800 according to the src Sep 04 20:34:45 yes it is Sep 04 20:34:47 very cool Sep 04 20:35:14 I am trying to determine if the src is true or not Sep 04 20:35:45 I hadn't used my n800 is about six months, and honestly ps-freedom was what made me think about it Sep 04 20:35:48 I don't have a ps3 Sep 04 20:35:50 but Sep 04 20:35:50 KaKaRoTo claimed he *is* already getting paid by Nokia, for the great advertisment of NITs Sep 04 20:35:59 :-D Sep 04 20:36:08 are you SERIOUS? Sep 04 20:36:23 I assume that was a joke? Sep 04 20:36:30 half half Sep 04 20:36:37 lol Sep 04 20:36:38 : ) Sep 04 20:37:00 I'm sure Nokia doesn't pay him for ps-freedom or for the advertising effects of it Sep 04 20:37:06 so, since the musb driver is the hardest part of the src, as long as it's recompiled on 2.6.21 on the n800, everything ought to work then huh? Sep 04 20:37:18 otoh it seems his company is doing a lot for Nokia Sep 04 20:37:32 well KaKaRoTo is a fellow collaboran Sep 04 20:37:34 lol Sep 04 20:37:44 hey - it's you Sep 04 20:37:46 I can ask you Sep 04 20:37:48 lcuk, hi again :p Sep 04 20:37:51 \o Sep 04 20:37:54 does it work on the n800 KaKaRoTo? Sep 04 20:37:57 * lcuk has seen you somewhere else :P Sep 04 20:38:46 npt, yes, it does Sep 04 20:38:52 yay! Sep 04 20:39:18 but the controller's driver is unstable, so you have to edit the /usr/sbin/osso-usb-mass-storage-enable.sh to prevent it from trying to load the mass storage driver Sep 04 20:39:32 so, what do I need to do differently on the n800 than with the n900? just compile it on n800 so the .28 module isn't trying to force itself into a .21 kernel? Sep 04 20:39:44 when it tries to load it, it corrupts psfreedom's memory and blocks the controller before it realizes "oh, you're busy, sorry" Sep 04 20:39:52 ok Sep 04 20:39:53 so Sep 04 20:40:03 I just updated my n800 to the latest nokia release Sep 04 20:40:08 so Sep 04 20:40:10 KaKaRoTo: LOL Sep 04 20:40:23 can you help me get it going? I would REALLY appreciate it. Sep 04 20:40:44 DocScrutinizer, I got a question for you Sep 04 20:40:49 shoot Sep 04 20:41:11 npt, grab the binary file, i've put it somewhere (if only I remembered where) Sep 04 20:41:20 : ) Sep 04 20:41:20 npt, let me talk to DocScrutinizer, and I'll come back to you,ok ? Sep 04 20:41:24 ok Sep 04 20:41:26 : ) Sep 04 20:41:47 DocScrutinizer, question is.. I realized that whenever my module gets loaded, I can't rmmod it.. 'lsmod' shows Used=4billion-something (0xFFFFFFFF) Sep 04 20:41:59 dockane, once I plug it in, it goes to 0 and I can rmmod it Sep 04 20:42:02 lol Sep 04 20:42:07 and it looks like it's been like that from day one Sep 04 20:42:18 how the hell am I supposed to initialize the 'used counter' or whatever Sep 04 20:42:25 it's friggin -1 Sep 04 20:42:29 g_file_storage doesn't have that problem, so obviously, I'm doing something wrong Sep 04 20:42:43 but I couldn't find anything in the file_storage.c's bind function Sep 04 20:42:53 it frees a driver use count that never got incremented before, I'd say Sep 04 20:43:36 yeah, it's -1 Sep 04 20:43:44 but where can I 'set it' to 0 Sep 04 20:43:56 or what am I supposed to do for the usb system to set it properly Sep 04 20:44:33 some nasty driver is calling the _unload_ or whatyacallit, without previously having called a proper _load_ Sep 04 20:45:33 so the usecount of the driver in question goes down from initial usecount=0 to -1 Sep 04 20:45:42 and that's obviously a bug Sep 04 20:46:09 ok Sep 04 20:46:15 (btw taling out of my ass here) Sep 04 20:46:18 does it have to do with the bind/unbind Sep 04 20:46:25 or it's load/unload of the module Sep 04 20:46:25 ? Sep 04 20:46:26 yep Sep 04 20:46:39 no clue, sorry Sep 04 20:46:43 ask paul Sep 04 20:46:59 he's much more savvy wrt low level kernel things than me Sep 04 20:47:08 dockane, PaulF ? Sep 04 20:47:14 yup Sep 04 20:48:53 tell him the problem, point him to the source, and if you bribe him nicely ( :-P ) he will fix it for you in 5 min Sep 04 20:49:42 hehe, ok, thx :) Sep 04 20:49:47 np Sep 04 20:55:00 KaKaRoTo, so, would you mind helping me? Sep 04 20:55:15 I am a HUGE fan of your work. Sep 04 20:55:21 it's pretty amazing actually Sep 04 20:57:01 Kakaroto, may I PM you? Sep 04 20:57:35 npt, go ahead, but i'm on the phone atm Sep 04 20:58:04 well, would it be better to talk n800 edits in here or PM? Sep 04 20:59:30 as I am a proud n800 owner : ) Sep 04 20:59:53 wish I had a n900 but can't justify have both since I have a phone and a bluetooth gps and keybd Sep 04 21:02:24 npt: ps-freedom is a maemo topic, no? so it's supposed to be discussed in public Sep 04 21:02:42 ok cool Sep 04 21:02:43 : ) Sep 04 21:02:46 I thought so but Sep 04 21:02:54 I didn't want to make any maemo people mad Sep 04 21:02:56 : ) Sep 04 21:03:03 thanks DocScrutinizer Sep 04 21:03:08 np Sep 04 21:03:29 I am so excited to meet the man himself! Sep 04 21:05:14 npt, http://kakaroto.homelinux.net/~kakaroto/n810/psfreedom.ko Sep 04 21:05:21 npt, download that and put it in your n800 Sep 04 21:05:39 KaKaRoTo, it's that easy? Sep 04 21:05:39 npt, then edit the file /usr/sbin/osso-usb-mass-storage-enable.sh and add at the very top : Sep 04 21:05:40 : ) Sep 04 21:05:44 ahh Sep 04 21:05:46 listening Sep 04 21:05:49 insmod /root/psfreedom.ko Sep 04 21:05:50 exit 1 Sep 04 21:05:53 save, reboot, try it Sep 04 21:05:58 that easy Sep 04 21:07:09 may I ask Sep 04 21:07:17 KaKaRoTo: you actually have to click "ass rage" on the menu, to enable ps-freedom then, or is that even before menu pops up? Sep 04 21:07:37 does your's allow backups to run or homebrea, or does that have to do with the ps3 backup manager? Sep 04 21:07:39 ass rage? :| Sep 04 21:07:51 hombrew Sep 04 21:07:52 and what menu ? Sep 04 21:07:57 Mass STOrage Sep 04 21:07:58 homebrew Sep 04 21:08:16 meh Sep 04 21:08:16 I am saying, does your's allow backups to run, or just homebrew? Sep 04 21:08:18 You people are weird. Sep 04 21:08:21 the menu on N900 that usually pops up when you connect to host Sep 04 21:08:21 im gonna replace my n900 Sep 04 21:08:28 or is that more related to the backup managed on the ps3? Sep 04 21:08:39 DocScrutinizer, ah, no, that's for n810, the script gets run at boot :) Sep 04 21:08:39 DocScrutinizer, it's such a common type I think infobot should pick on it and automatically do a 'User meant:' Sep 04 21:08:50 common typo* Sep 04 21:08:53 KaKaRoTo: aaah I see Sep 04 21:09:16 htc desire z or a motorola droid 2, hard choice again Sep 04 21:09:17 DocScrutinizer, and I only do it because if the g_file_storage module gets loaded it screws up the controller Sep 04 21:09:30 ~ass rage is Mass STOrage Sep 04 21:09:30 DocScrutinizer: okay Sep 04 21:10:55 midas_: equally hard to get good advice for that choice here in this chan Sep 04 21:11:06 ~ass Sep 04 21:11:07 ass is, like, titties,ass and titties. ass and titties. oh yes. Sep 04 21:11:18 ~ass rage Sep 04 21:11:18 i guess ass rage is Mass STOrage Sep 04 21:11:36 DocScrutinizer: yeah, but im kinda done with nokia and the lack of support Sep 04 21:11:57 midas_, when did you not get support? Sep 04 21:12:03 I'm sad to hear that, but hnestly what can we do? Sep 04 21:12:12 nothing Sep 04 21:12:13 KaKaRoTo, I am still curious, does your port allow backups to run, or just homebrew which I would be fine with, or is that done at the ps3 level? Sep 04 21:12:19 thats why im replacing it :P Sep 04 21:12:27 midas_: and what can we learn? Sep 04 21:12:42 npt, depends... maybe... :p Sep 04 21:12:43 midas_: when did you not get support? Sep 04 21:12:44 i would like to know when he contacted nokia and about what, and how they let him down Sep 04 21:12:50 how do the other phone manufacturers "support" their end customers? yet to see that happening Sep 04 21:12:53 ditto Sep 04 21:12:54 KaKaRoTo, may I ask on what? Sep 04 21:12:56 apart from basic warranty Sep 04 21:13:15 npt, latest code (I think I pushed it) allows you to push the payload and shellcode you want by putting them in /lib/firmware/psfreedom_payload.bin and /lib/firmware/psfreedom_shellcode.bin Sep 04 21:13:24 lpotter: support as in dropping maemo 5 Sep 04 21:13:32 I'll be providing both BD-emu enabled and BD-emu disabled payloads Sep 04 21:13:38 it's all community powered now Sep 04 21:13:39 ahh cool Sep 04 21:13:46 so xxxx and bdvd Sep 04 21:13:48 : ) Sep 04 21:13:49 by default (no firmware file found), it uses the bd-emu disabled payload Sep 04 21:13:51 yeah Sep 04 21:13:52 0x78 lol Sep 04 21:14:06 Lynoure: for reference, i'm taking my month long summer vacation now. so forget about asking me :) Sep 04 21:14:17 just curious, how do you use the other? Sep 04 21:14:27 DocScrutinizer: tell me that one was not a typo Sep 04 21:14:40 kerio: ?? Sep 04 21:14:42 timeless_mbp: what?? Sep 04 21:14:47 DocScrutinizer: "ass rage" Sep 04 21:14:56 npt, what other ? Sep 04 21:14:57 timeless_mbp: AFAIK, did not ask you anything... Sep 04 21:14:58 it's (C) SpeedEvil Sep 04 21:15:05 and does this mean that I need a different payload file from you Sep 04 21:15:06 timeless_mbp, dates for leeds - you didnt get back about film and tv afternoon Sep 04 21:15:06 heh, yeah, i remember Sep 04 21:15:09 it's so good I adopted it Sep 04 21:15:24 KaKaRoTo, I mean, will I be able to backup my God of war 3 disc with this? Sep 04 21:15:33 npt, in theory yes Sep 04 21:15:40 midas_: did Nokia ever say they were not ever going to drop maemo 5? Sep 04 21:15:41 what do I do to change the payload Sep 04 21:15:42 ? Sep 04 21:15:43 lcuk: i'm heading to England sometime today (sunday) or monday Sep 04 21:15:52 i should be in leeds by wednesday through saturday evening Sep 04 21:15:52 nokia is actively developing something that'd appear to be PR1.3 containing Qt 4.7 for N900. anyway, their primary goal is to make Qt the standard nokia smartphone platform, and turning Maemo/MeeGo/Symbian largely irrelevant for those that develop software for the devices Sep 04 21:15:53 indeed Sep 04 21:15:58 * KaKaRoTo just realized he did all this and never actually installed a .pkg or tried to backup anything... Sep 04 21:15:59 * timeless_mbp needs to get tickets Sep 04 21:16:17 npt, to change the payload you do 'cp payload_bd.bin /lib/firmware/psfreedom_payload.bin' Sep 04 21:16:25 I'll be providing those .bin files Sep 04 21:16:33 ahh Sep 04 21:16:35 lo timeless_mbp Sep 04 21:16:47 npt, well, not with the file I sent you.. but with the latest git (locally) yes Sep 04 21:16:48 hi Sep 04 21:16:56 ahh Sep 04 21:17:03 when will you push out of curiousity? Sep 04 21:17:10 npt, if you want, you can just fire up 'vi psfreedom.ko' and replace the 'xxxx' Sep 04 21:17:19 lpotter: they did it in a short time dont you agree? Sep 04 21:17:24 as most people did when I had just released the binary... Sep 04 21:17:33 ahh Sep 04 21:17:45 well, it's nice to know I can do that Sep 04 21:17:46 but Sep 04 21:17:47 still Sep 04 21:17:56 I would like to know how to do it the way you are doing it Sep 04 21:18:07 ie correctly (more correct to how you are doing things) Sep 04 21:18:08 npt, that would require me to compile a new module for you Sep 04 21:18:10 * KaKaRoTo yawns Sep 04 21:18:30 I'm sorry Sep 04 21:18:35 I didn't mean to put you out Sep 04 21:18:37 it's ok Sep 04 21:18:44 I assume you mean Sep 04 21:18:52 hex edit the .ko? Sep 04 21:19:09 lpotter, given the competition's behavior. At least 2 years is a reasonable expectation in this market segment. Sep 04 21:19:17 lpotter: short Q - what's Qt mobile (or what it's called) policy regarding kbd hotkeys? Sep 04 21:19:20 lpotter, 10 months or so is not that. Sep 04 21:20:18 GAN900: and where is the official word that Nokia has actually dropped 'support' or is not developing maemo5 anymore? Sep 04 21:20:40 DocScrutinizer: you mean Qt Mobility? Sep 04 21:20:44 so KaKaRoTo does your implementation use the same backup manager on the ps3? Sep 04 21:20:45 yep Sep 04 21:21:01 lpotter, where is the official word that support has been dropped for 770? N800? N810? Sep 04 21:21:07 DocScrutinizer: has nothing really to do with higher level gui Sep 04 21:21:14 GAN900, ffs Sep 04 21:21:24 theres development been done in many areas post pr1.2 Sep 04 21:21:25 lpotter, the rhetoric is not productive. Sep 04 21:21:28 not really, esp since I gather it's supported anyway Sep 04 21:21:53 and you yourself are going to be involved in some further maemo stuff are you not Sep 04 21:21:59 GAN900: well, seeings you cannot buy those from Nokia anymore Sep 04 21:21:59 npt, my implementation just allows you to 'install package files' Sep 04 21:22:08 (psgroove and original psjailbreak too) Sep 04 21:22:17 GAN900: fairly certain that means no support Sep 04 21:22:33 npt, once that's done, you unplug the n810, plug in a usb flash key with the manager.pkg in it ,and install that Sep 04 21:22:38 lcuk, so when the N9's out, then we can expect the support to end? Sep 04 21:22:41 "2 years" is not an expectation that anyone could predict on any other device either, beforehand... except maybe iphones, which are absolutely planned to turn crap after the two year contracts are to be renewed -> new one is sold Sep 04 21:22:50 npt, and yes, hexedit the .ko Sep 04 21:23:17 kirma, I think it's reasonable to expect that of manufacturers these days Sep 04 21:23:24 KaKaRoTo, I want to say, thanks for making it Sep 04 21:23:25 and Sep 04 21:23:30 You are a really nice guy. Sep 04 21:23:36 It is an honor to meet you. Sep 04 21:23:44 may I pm for one question? Sep 04 21:23:47 and Nokia certainly knows the people who buy Maemo devices expect it, given the uproar each time they end support early. Sep 04 21:24:10 there are very little reliable guarantees that *any* smartphone gets major manufacturer-approved OS upgrades, even if they give the feeling in the start Sep 04 21:24:23 npt, thx, and ask your question, no need for boot-licking... ;p Sep 04 21:24:23 But, despite Peter's protestations to the contrary, they don't listen, so management cripples us again. Sep 04 21:24:32 I meant it Sep 04 21:24:39 it wasn't ass kissing Sep 04 21:24:40 * lcuk bangs head on brick wall Sep 04 21:24:41 ;) Sep 04 21:24:54 anyway, I was going to ask a question about an email address hehe Sep 04 21:24:56 : ) Sep 04 21:25:01 kirma, true enough, however I believe there's an expectation of it in this segment these days. Sep 04 21:25:26 lcuk, now you know what it's been like for me for the past few years! :) Sep 04 21:25:35 npt, I don't like receiving emails Sep 04 21:25:38 GAN900, there are hundreds of thousands of N900s around. Sep 04 21:25:49 KaKaRoTo, ok Sep 04 21:25:50 np Sep 04 21:25:54 thanks for all the help Sep 04 21:25:58 it's much appreciated Sep 04 21:26:26 lcuk, and Nokia isn't providing a migration path for the vast majority of them to their Next Big Thing. Sep 04 21:26:41 in my opinion, it's unrealistic to expect true OS updates after one year of device on the market - at least from companies that have more than two phone models in their active catalog Sep 04 21:27:12 you're welcome Sep 04 21:27:20 "Network administrator Oliver Beel lost his job after charging his Segway, a two-wheeled electric vehicle, at work in May 2009. After he connected the vehicle to the firm's power source for 1-1/2 hours, his boss asked him to remove it. Twelve days later Beel found himself without a job." Sep 04 21:27:23 GAN900, dont you think people are trying Sep 04 21:27:31 kirma, I say many of Nokia's competitors are doing just that, so I'll take my time and money elsewhere. Sep 04 21:27:46 crashanddie: wtf? Sep 04 21:27:58 lcuk, I think a lot of good people are working for a rotten company in need of new management. Sep 04 21:28:39 I doubt if samsung has committed themselves to providing major firmware upgrades to specific handset models two years after their entry to market Sep 04 21:28:42 GAN900, maemo itself is a pretty rock solid stable os Sep 04 21:28:47 for instance Sep 04 21:28:52 with lots and lots of apps and support and stuff Sep 04 21:28:54 jacekowski: yeah... pretty insane eh? Sep 04 21:29:15 crashanddie: fair enough, given it can take up to 50ct per hour to charge such vehicles Sep 04 21:29:35 DocScrutinizer: actually, it was more like 0.018 euros Sep 04 21:29:39 http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68232X20100903 Sep 04 21:29:45 for instance, android upgrade paths seem very spotty Sep 04 21:29:57 lcuk, or not. Sep 04 21:30:11 DocScrutinizer: and he had been employed for 19 years, and other employees are allowed to charge their phones, and use digital photo frames without any trouble Sep 04 21:30:13 lcuk, considering I have to reboot every two days to free RAM. Sep 04 21:30:41 erhm... "lots and lots of apps" Sep 04 21:30:43 which bug is this? Sep 04 21:30:48 I'm thinking something's missing from the story. Sep 04 21:30:52 crashanddie: that's magnitudes different story, and I really doubt a segway charger is like err 10W Sep 04 21:30:53 lcuk, 6xxx something Sep 04 21:30:58 RST38h filed it. Sep 04 21:30:58 the one that RST38h abandoned after we asked for more info? Sep 04 21:31:09 GAN900, if you have info Sep 04 21:31:18 then please get it onto the bug report and show it me Sep 04 21:31:24 and i will take it on monday morning Sep 04 21:31:37 lcuk, we can fix it in the next release after PR1.3 that isn't coming? :) Sep 04 21:31:47 ffs Sep 04 21:32:10 open your eyes GAN900, stuff has been done post pr1.2, stuff continues to be done Sep 04 21:32:21 it wouldnt be done for no reason Sep 04 21:32:42 crashanddie, yes, and you can add to that by releasing yours :P Sep 04 21:32:54 llibliqbase changelog from last night :P Sep 04 21:32:56 libliqbase (0.3.61) unstable; urgency=low Sep 04 21:32:56 * lots of fixes, especially Sep 04 21:32:56 * green flash removal Sep 04 21:32:56 * rotation patch Sep 04 21:32:56 * x86 support Sep 04 21:32:58 * optification done at library level effecting all apps Sep 04 21:33:02 * multitouch availability improvements Sep 04 21:33:04 * added dialogs for color and image Sep 04 21:33:06 * added facecamera support and invar Sep 04 21:33:08 * added rotation support for sketches Sep 04 21:33:10 -- Gary Birkett 4 September 2010 00:41:03 +0200 Sep 04 21:33:12 new release coming soon Sep 04 21:33:30 ~ping Sep 04 21:33:31 ~pong Sep 04 21:33:35 soryr :$ Sep 04 21:33:41 KaKaRoTo: hi, great work on PSFreedom Sep 04 21:33:57 KaKaRoTo: so does it work? Sep 04 21:33:59 did you try it? Sep 04 21:34:14 kerio: well, it's been confirmed multiple times Sep 04 21:34:18 awesome Sep 04 21:34:23 mhm Sep 04 21:34:23 will you get banned from the psn? Sep 04 21:34:29 probably Sep 04 21:34:38 in the near future Sep 04 21:34:38 and you also have to buy a blu-ray burner Sep 04 21:34:39 hahaha Sep 04 21:34:41 crashanddie, add your app to the list and make it 59~~ + 1 Sep 04 21:34:43 liq* ... what's that stuff about? I never gave it a try Sep 04 21:34:46 I wanted some help porting it on Archos 5 IMT, it supports musb Sep 04 21:34:52 kerio, err no Sep 04 21:34:58 satmd, its nothing just yet :P Sep 04 21:34:59 BD checks are done 2-3 times afaik Sep 04 21:35:09 lcuk: the problem is that there might be a bunch of apps, but the development process is wrong Sep 04 21:35:10 only way to pirate games is on a stick Sep 04 21:35:14 it was more directed at crashanddie who is sitting on a great idea for an app Sep 04 21:35:28 yes crashanddie and you have 1 app Sep 04 21:35:30 lcuk: people in maemo don't develop to have a popular app Sep 04 21:35:31 MohammadAG: ooh Sep 04 21:35:32 cool Sep 04 21:35:32 :) Sep 04 21:35:38 crashanddie: phone is nothing compared to amount of electricity segway can suck Sep 04 21:35:40 (and by stick you mean bigass hd, right?) Sep 04 21:35:50 jacekowski: he charged it once Sep 04 21:35:55 well, only fat32 is supported, go figure Sep 04 21:36:02 wait, what :| Sep 04 21:36:14 ok, this probably gets asked a lot, but is there a maemo mutt client? Sep 04 21:36:16 yay for games in 20 parts Sep 04 21:36:19 jacekowski: I highly doubt a segway uses more in 1 1/2 hours than all the phones that have the charger plugged in all year Sep 04 21:36:19 and the internal HDD also supported Sep 04 21:36:28 kerio, you can't split games Sep 04 21:36:40 crashanddie: yeah, i think it's little bit drastic, but i think it's because they were trying to find a reason to get rid of him or article skips some important parts Sep 04 21:36:41 the internal HDD is not FAT Sep 04 21:36:47 lcuk: people develop because they have an itch, they can't be arsed to finish the apps properly, and basically, you end up with a bunch of half-assed shit apps Sep 04 21:37:03 lcuk: sure, the count is enormous (well, supposedly), but half the crap is either redundant, or just that, "crap" Sep 04 21:37:10 nokiae50, indeed, neither is it an FS we know Sep 04 21:37:19 lcuk: at least "crap" on iOS/Android looks good. Sep 04 21:37:34 FS? Sep 04 21:37:42 filesystem Sep 04 21:37:46 can someone help me with my dang bluetooth keyboard on my n800? Sep 04 21:37:47 :) Sep 04 21:37:47 crashanddie, then put the effort in with yours. show us how global search works Sep 04 21:37:51 crashanddie, crap on maemo is good Sep 04 21:37:54 I've forgotten how to enable it... Sep 04 21:38:00 I mean, ffs, we still have a phone that doesn't look much better than the n800. That's what, nearly 4 years ago now. Sep 04 21:38:03 as I hadn't used my n800 in a bit Sep 04 21:38:04 Apple knows how to make their app devs make things look decent. Sep 04 21:38:38 how come that we still have crappy scrolling, how come that we still don't have a properly defined development environment? Sep 04 21:38:58 because nobody is a control freak Sep 04 21:39:04 bollocks Sep 04 21:39:08 openness != performance Sep 04 21:39:22 and the parts that should control the performance AREN'T FUCKING OPEN Sep 04 21:39:42 kernel and OC is open Sep 04 21:39:44 open or closed wouldnt matter Sep 04 21:39:51 its the pipeline length that would effect performance Sep 04 21:39:53 Android isn't closed, hell, their UI blows Maemo out of the water Sep 04 21:39:55 jacekowski: oh shush Sep 04 21:39:57 :P Sep 04 21:40:33 crashanddie, you know performance can exist, but with x11 and however many layers inside both gtk and qt its hard Sep 04 21:40:39 we should have VS plugin for maemo development Sep 04 21:40:39 remove the layers Sep 04 21:40:43 and improve perf Sep 04 21:40:44 lcuk: I know that Sep 04 21:40:53 android and iphone both sidestep x11ness Sep 04 21:40:54 lcuk: liqbase and quickflickr demonstrate that nicely Sep 04 21:40:59 liqbase does also Sep 04 21:41:01 yes Sep 04 21:41:07 but all 3 lose one thing Sep 04 21:41:09 but it shouldn't have to Sep 04 21:41:12 backwards compatability Sep 04 21:41:21 not fully Sep 04 21:41:22 then sod it Sep 04 21:41:27 yes, fully jacekowski Sep 04 21:41:31 you can replace xproto libs backend Sep 04 21:41:51 sort of wineish like way Sep 04 21:42:04 do it then Sep 04 21:42:11 jacekowski: oh yeah, I can smell performance right there :P Sep 04 21:42:18 and lets have gtk compatabile inside android Sep 04 21:42:29 or qt Sep 04 21:42:40 and switch from ipk to deb Sep 04 21:42:48 well, sort of like qt Sep 04 21:43:05 same api for app but different drawing backends Sep 04 21:43:12 cocoa,win32,x11 Sep 04 21:43:15 this backwards compatability thing is something i have looked at extensively this year Sep 04 21:43:36 just replacing library itself could do the job Sep 04 21:43:57 but somebody would have to make qt draw stuff without x11 on linux Sep 04 21:44:08 don't go blaming x11 now Sep 04 21:44:18 x11 is slowish by design Sep 04 21:44:24 look how 3d is done Sep 04 21:44:25 MNZ, i am not! Sep 04 21:44:32 tbh Sep 04 21:44:38 documentation on maemo sucks Sep 04 21:44:44 3d in fact doesn't go trough x server Sep 04 21:44:46 http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/hildon/hildon-Additions-to-GTK+.html#hildon-gtk-window-take-screenshot <-- doesn't work on qt Sep 04 21:44:47 x11 is for the most part rock solid, time-tested technology Sep 04 21:44:50 x11 isnt the problem i dont think Sep 04 21:44:58 3d is passed via DRM straight to hardware Sep 04 21:45:00 what makes you believe implementing all the x11 functions in e.g. Qt would result in a solution performing any better than the original? Sep 04 21:45:04 DRM? Sep 04 21:45:06 DMA? Sep 04 21:45:08 and I was just going to say that jacekowski Sep 04 21:45:09 MNZ, same as gtk isnt the problem Sep 04 21:45:16 no Sep 04 21:45:16 and same as powervr/compositing isnt the problem Sep 04 21:45:17 DRM Sep 04 21:45:19 its all 3 combined Sep 04 21:45:23 Direct Rendering Manager Sep 04 21:45:28 jacekowski: ah, ok Sep 04 21:45:41 you have to love english acronyms Sep 04 21:45:42 personally I don't trust the stuff above X11 on the stack Sep 04 21:45:50 DocScrutinizer, nobody said that Sep 04 21:46:04 but X11 and mesa (GL for the desktop) are rock solid Sep 04 21:46:05 lcuk: jacekowski implied it Sep 04 21:46:22 MNZ, they are also bloated Sep 04 21:46:25 it won't be drasticaly faster Sep 04 21:47:14 lcuk, X11 has had a MAJOR rework recently (few years) and it has become very modular. I really don't think it's the problem Sep 04 21:47:32 very modular and a lot of old cruft was removed Sep 04 21:47:34 very modular == very abstract Sep 04 21:47:45 X11, Xlib or any of that is unlikely to be the problem regarding unresponsiveness in the sense of CPU load, although they may be tad inefficient regarding use of memory, if they're not used in a wise way Sep 04 21:47:48 very abstract == overhead Sep 04 21:48:09 mnz, there is a huge asskicking for x11 being discussed Sep 04 21:48:10 xcb is supposed to address latency issues, isn't it? Sep 04 21:48:16 and i cant remember its codename Sep 04 21:48:37 we had that X11 performance vs fb plus new implementation of some window manager in a generic way, we had that several times on OM. It's always the same, either you use fb, or you use x11, but there's no way to have the speed of fb with the versatility of x11 Sep 04 21:48:38 but a supreme light variation with most of the cruft removed Sep 04 21:48:57 lcuk: plymouth? Sep 04 21:49:05 doesnt sound right Sep 04 21:49:07 with modern OpenGL, one can basically bypass most of the eighties-style functionality on it and go almost straight to the hardware acceleration Sep 04 21:49:09 * lcuk will know it when i see it Sep 04 21:49:22 MohammadAG, most things on Maemo are half-assed. Sep 04 21:49:41 Attributable to both Nokia's culture and lack of dedication from the company. Sep 04 21:49:53 lcuk, you are probably talking about that new server... something that starts with W.... Sep 04 21:50:00 it's not actually an X11 rework Sep 04 21:50:04 weldon ot something Sep 04 21:50:31 yes Sep 04 21:50:33 tho Sep 04 21:51:39 with Qt, Nokia *could* choose to skip Xlib/X server altogether, but only when everything is actually running on top of the Qt components Sep 04 21:52:09 wayland! Sep 04 21:52:16 kirma: I'd not buy that Sep 04 21:52:22 i do Sep 04 21:52:25 lcuk, yes that's the one Sep 04 21:52:28 lcuk: wayland Sep 04 21:52:31 damn Sep 04 21:52:34 * Corsac hides Sep 04 21:52:39 lol :D Sep 04 21:52:49 DocScrutinizer: you would remove bloat and 30 years old design of Xserver Sep 04 21:53:46 not to mention that xserver is a security risk Sep 04 21:53:55 pfft Sep 04 21:54:40 I still think Xorg server and Xlib, especially with DRM extensions and such, is particularly small portion of the complexity, or overhead, of a typical system. qt, gtk and whatever have considerable amount of untrivial complexity inside them, and not really tuned as long as the X server Sep 04 21:55:02 I agree with kirma Sep 04 21:55:28 thing is that you have to remove as much overhead as you can from everything Sep 04 21:55:30 * DocScrutinizer too Sep 04 21:55:43 the 30 year old design is 30 year olds for a reason really :/ it's been improved a lot since then of course as well, besides the X server manages a whole lot more than just display Sep 04 21:55:50 except that the part talking to hardware is X Sep 04 21:55:51 MNZ: think symbian Sep 04 21:55:52 one has also to remember that original X servers ran on hardware that had small fraction of CPU power in comparison to any phone these days Sep 04 21:55:53 not the toolkits Sep 04 21:56:00 and once you actually get a surface/rendering context, X gets out of the way mostly Sep 04 21:56:15 MNZ: that's 30 years old design as well Sep 04 21:56:16 kirma, it does get a kick in the teeth based on the c/s principles and mechanisms for copying Sep 04 21:56:35 * kirma recalls his SGI system that had 25 MHz R3000 as CPU, and big graphics subsystem bolted on the side Sep 04 21:56:53 which on a handheld system like maemo, the remoting capabilities being rarely touched but having to be used with every operation Sep 04 21:57:01 adds to the heavy overhead gtk and qt abuse it for Sep 04 21:57:22 X on n900 uses 20-30% of cpu sometimes Sep 04 21:57:24 jacekowski: so why not discard unix concept all together? it's even older than X Sep 04 21:57:26 when i looked in htop Sep 04 21:57:40 like i said, individually they are not a problem, but combined they add up to slug Sep 04 21:57:56 but I know good people have worked damned hard this year to minimise as much of that as possible Sep 04 21:58:09 we should go to a modern architecture, like WinNT ;) Sep 04 21:58:12 DocScrutinizer: kinda no alternatives Sep 04 21:58:14 with extreme optimisations and profiling and looking at just how we can improve things Sep 04 21:58:15 the remoting is not used because it doesn't easily work :( Sep 04 21:58:24 most of the heavy graphics stuff has gone through SHM (at worst!) on all meaningful apps for decades Sep 04 21:58:26 ssh -X doesn't work :( Sep 04 21:58:26 its not required here Sep 04 21:58:27 winnt is old as well Sep 04 21:58:28 < lcuk> like i said, individually they are not a problem, but combined they add up to slug <-- sounds like you were talking with GAN900 and myself about marines in starcraft 2 Sep 04 21:58:30 on local applications Sep 04 21:58:36 jacekowski, I have been told and read in several places that the X cpu usage is not actually entirely X's cpu usage. Other programs contribute to it Sep 04 21:58:52 MNZ: X cpu usage is X cpu usage Sep 04 21:58:57 MNZ, X is idle unless something is talking to it :P Sep 04 21:59:06 so yes you are right Sep 04 21:59:07 MNZ: even if caused by other program requesting something from X Sep 04 21:59:20 what are those programs asking? Sep 04 21:59:27 to display shit for them Sep 04 21:59:32 rendering ops most likely Sep 04 21:59:43 no display shit has to go back through Sep 04 21:59:47 be made into a texture Sep 04 21:59:50 sent onto the powervr Sep 04 21:59:59 pure 2d direct to lcd x11 rendering is fast Sep 04 22:00:11 i want to know why ssh -X doesn't work Sep 04 22:00:18 no tcp Sep 04 22:00:18 thats why as much as possible the compositor is turned off Sep 04 22:00:29 jacekowski: how do i enable it? Sep 04 22:00:31 i tried xauth Sep 04 22:00:32 lcuk: how is that part of displaying working Sep 04 22:00:39 kerio: it's not compiled in Sep 04 22:00:42 which Sep 04 22:00:44 :( Sep 04 22:00:47 lcuk: 2d Sep 04 22:00:49 then why do we have networking Sep 04 22:00:53 lcuk: hardware side of it Sep 04 22:01:06 X CPU usage is X CPU usage, which might though consist of waiting for the graphics hardware to accomplish something... X memory usage can be result of stupid X client applications, though Sep 04 22:01:07 lcuk: it still has to go to powervr? Sep 04 22:01:12 jacekowski, the omapfb graphic surface doesnt care how it gets filled Sep 04 22:01:17 so fill it with pretty graphics Sep 04 22:01:24 whether they be direct from x11 cpu operaitons Sep 04 22:01:29 or from the powervr output Sep 04 22:01:39 hmm, that way Sep 04 22:01:56 hell, you could write a blitter using the dsp Sep 04 22:02:04 Wayland would be quite perfect for a mobile device Sep 04 22:02:14 "Wayland is a nano display server, relying on drm modesetting, gem batchbuffer submission and hw initialization generally in the kernel. Wayland puts the compositing manager and display server in the same process. Window management is largely pushed to the clients, they draw their own decorations and move and resize themselves, typically implemented in a toolkit library." Sep 04 22:02:30 MNZ, i believe its discussions like this that evolved into wayland Sep 04 22:02:41 MNZ: it will probably require kernel mode switching Sep 04 22:02:50 sane X11 programs use SHM or similar to share pixmaps with the server, and communicate over domain sockets in bunches of X11 commands that are sent in bundles only when results are needed to be displayed Sep 04 22:02:53 jacekowski, most probably Sep 04 22:03:31 kirma, thats harder to setup generically than you think Sep 04 22:03:42 overhead shouldn't be worse than any other method that applies something that separates different clients from access to the actual hardware/framebuffer Sep 04 22:03:54 lcuk: so write a toolkit :D Sep 04 22:04:12 as soon as you want to talk with the server for complex stuff that overwhelmes it the benfit is lost Sep 04 22:04:13 lcuk, actually, back when I used to idle on #radeon/#drm/#dri-devel I have seen wayland take a bunch of bashing Sep 04 22:04:22 it will do :P Sep 04 22:04:25 kerio, i did Sep 04 22:04:39 and it performs like an iphone Sep 04 22:04:53 slow? Sep 04 22:05:04 i would love to actually do comparisons on direct hardware to hardware tbh Sep 04 22:05:08 jacekowski, piss off Sep 04 22:05:45 but hmm, thinking about it now Sep 04 22:05:52 jacekowski, for reference of what I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeVPddxHW84 Sep 04 22:05:54 games and stuff on iphone Sep 04 22:06:09 are barely working on 128M of ram Sep 04 22:06:45 and n-gage had 1/4th of that Sep 04 22:06:50 responsiveness of applications certainly depends on other things than "X server overhead" alone Sep 04 22:06:53 and i could run 2-3 games at the same time Sep 04 22:07:08 kerio: and app and ui design Sep 04 22:07:12 having a platform without mentionable multitasking helps keeping interactive response jitter down Sep 04 22:07:31 if you split ui and processing into separate thread Sep 04 22:07:37 with non blocking communication between them Sep 04 22:07:58 you can have responsible ui Sep 04 22:08:29 + better sheduler that prioritises interactive threads/applications Sep 04 22:08:40 something like RSDL Sep 04 22:08:49 * DocScrutinizer yawns Sep 04 22:09:00 where you can have loadavg around 100 and apps will still be responsive Sep 04 22:11:23 kirma, do you generally find maemo apps unresponsive? Sep 04 22:11:30 * lcuk certainly doesnt Sep 04 22:11:42 because you are only using liqbase Sep 04 22:12:26 * lcuk has conversations and xchat and browser and vnc open atm on n900 Sep 04 22:12:29 no jacekowski Sep 04 22:13:06 i have and use many native apps Sep 04 22:13:06 my suspicions of choppy UI experience on small devices usually point towards scheduling, paging and specific hard-to-recognize inefficiencies in specific code paths crossing several abstraction layers Sep 04 22:13:15 and i enjoy when an mms comes in etc Sep 04 22:13:24 there's *definitely* other problems when it comes to sluggishness on N900, than exactly x11 Sep 04 22:13:43 lcuk: nokia maps? Sep 04 22:13:52 Just look at GTK :/ Sep 04 22:14:00 lcuk: the magic "turns sluggish after couple days" issue certainly annoys me Sep 04 22:14:04 but not really otherwise Sep 04 22:14:06 jacekowski, now that I mostly use a liq* app for but its not the same sort of app Sep 04 22:14:09 I love that apt-get update has scheduled itself to run during my lunch every day. Sep 04 22:14:14 i simply rely on taking photos of local maps Sep 04 22:14:19 or screenshots of websites Sep 04 22:14:50 kirma, i havent got it personally Sep 04 22:15:03 uptime 4 days, 12:48 Sep 04 22:15:26 and if you CAN reproduce it Sep 04 22:15:32 help in the bug with good info Sep 04 22:15:34 I'm not certain if the call recorder has something to do with it in my case specifically Sep 04 22:15:46 or some other of those installed 150+ applications... Sep 04 22:15:54 yeah :) Sep 04 22:16:07 its not like it happens to everyone Sep 04 22:17:17 Nokia-N900-02-8:~# uptime Sep 04 22:17:19 00:14:14 up 12 days, 6:29, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sep 04 22:17:23 no sluggishness Sep 04 22:17:31 fake load Sep 04 22:17:35 or OC Sep 04 22:17:40 load was at 8 last night DocScrutinizer Sep 04 22:17:44 you said so Sep 04 22:17:54 that's been another device Sep 04 22:17:59 it feels like either some stupid list in window manager/compositor is growing absurdly list and being traversed all the time (unlikely), some critical applications' memory has gotten badly fragmented and results virtual memory pressure showing up as increased paging, or even that something might be happening in the kernel memory management Sep 04 22:18:22 kirma, so follow your nose :) Sep 04 22:18:35 the bitch is that it takes 2 days to retry Sep 04 22:18:55 with all this negativity and complaints about sluggishness and bad apps and what not, I'd still take an N900 over an iPhone anyday. Is it only me? Sep 04 22:18:58 I don't really have so much free time to tinker, especially after debugging stuff at work 8+ hours a day ;) Sep 04 22:19:14 MNZ, if it were only you then we wouldnt care enough to shout Sep 04 22:19:16 lcuk: there is that qemu image of meego that will probably do the same thing Sep 04 22:19:34 MNZ: nope, me too Sep 04 22:19:36 I certainly like my N900, but there are some annoyances like this. Sep 04 22:19:39 MNZ, and everyone is trying Sep 04 22:19:43 * lcuk adores his n900 Sep 04 22:19:50 which I can't call non-issues in every level Sep 04 22:20:02 kirma, try reflashing perhaps and rebuild the apps you use Sep 04 22:20:06 and leave the ones you dont Sep 04 22:20:19 i know in linux thats not the done thing Sep 04 22:20:33 but a great many computer problems magically vanish when you reformat :P Sep 04 22:21:33 well, reboot is sufficiently good solution as it doesn't take more than a minute to get things back on sensible track after it Sep 04 22:21:35 actually, a useful way to debug this issue would be if someone is proficient with dumping and exploring RAM. Like in computer forensics Sep 04 22:21:54 MNZ, problem is: Sep 04 22:22:00 unlike on desktop machines, where recovery may take literally an hour of work or more Sep 04 22:22:13 venn diargam: people experiencing problem, People able to do forensics Sep 04 22:22:25 hahaha I see where you are going Sep 04 22:22:46 diagram even :P Sep 04 22:22:56 but that's not what I meant. If there's a simple way to dump RAM and upload it so that those who can do the hackery can see it Sep 04 22:23:18 and this being linux..... Sep 04 22:23:26 wasn't there a mem device? Sep 04 22:23:26 MNZ: I thought there is Sep 04 22:23:31 sure, DocScrutinizer - can we just dump all ram, and would it be helpful do you think Sep 04 22:23:38 doh crashdumps do? Sep 04 22:24:02 cat /proc/kmem? something along that line? Sep 04 22:24:13 you would rather need a consistent dump of the memory (both userland and kernel) *and* all the files open by the processes, and the paging backing store Sep 04 22:24:14 kmem would be kernel mem I guess Sep 04 22:24:15 i think i tried something like that Sep 04 22:24:17 and it fails Sep 04 22:24:26 because of memory protection by trustzone Sep 04 22:24:27 or simply suspend to disk, then safe away the swap ? Sep 04 22:24:31 there also is /proc//maps for the virtual addresses Sep 04 22:24:40 DocScrutinizer, actually, that's a good idea! Sep 04 22:24:49 (unless that doesnt exist on n900) Sep 04 22:24:51 right Sep 04 22:24:57 so what good would it do Sep 04 22:24:59 seriously Sep 04 22:25:06 "ooho 1s and 0s Sep 04 22:25:18 is it actually worth the hassle Sep 04 22:25:27 when as kirma just said "meh i just reboot" Sep 04 22:25:43 errr officially, he said: Sep 04 22:25:48 " well, reboot is sufficiently good solution as it doesn't take more than a minute to get things back on sensible track after it" Sep 04 22:25:58 well, I'm not proficient with this kind of thing, but I was reading an article on computer forensics a while back and you can apparently do a whole load of stuff with a memory image Sep 04 22:26:20 gill grissom maybe Sep 04 22:26:21 not easily Sep 04 22:26:23 depends on the actual amount of hassle it means to anybody capable to deal with such kind of mega-dump crawling Sep 04 22:26:27 like extract and examine process memory Sep 04 22:26:37 you would have to get maps first Sep 04 22:26:47 and memory is fragmented Sep 04 22:26:49 this discussion by the way Sep 04 22:27:02 suspend-to-somewhere + open files would certainly give some sort of idea what's wrong, but suspend-to-swap and such tend to be surprisingly hard :I Sep 04 22:27:03 is the reason the bug is on NEED_INFO or something Sep 04 22:27:08 i am vanishing Sep 04 22:27:12 i have stuff to do Sep 04 22:27:14 \o Sep 04 22:27:21 I mean, such a dump would be useful to *someone* Sep 04 22:27:26 o/ Sep 04 22:27:28 not really Sep 04 22:27:37 dumps of individual processes would be better Sep 04 22:27:52 but still not very usefull Sep 04 22:28:00 static analisys take lot of time Sep 04 22:28:07 well, they're better if you actually know the individual processes are the problem Sep 04 22:28:25 hah, fun. N810 xchat frequently reregistering :-S Sep 04 22:28:30 you would need kdbg attached Sep 04 22:28:38 and just trace stuff Sep 04 22:28:46 over serial console Sep 04 22:28:47 jpinx-eeepc: Congrats! Sep 04 22:28:48 :-/ kdbg nonexistent for arm Sep 04 22:28:53 (usb-...) Sep 04 22:29:10 well, there is serial trace interface Sep 04 22:29:14 or whatever is it called Sep 04 22:30:02 * ShadowJK 's n810's xchat survives change of public ip even Sep 04 22:30:45 err is there? Sep 04 22:30:46 i have xchat on my nokia n900 Sep 04 22:30:59 DocScrutinizer, oh? maybe try using qemu's builtin gdbstub? Sep 04 22:31:00 now am chatting with it Sep 04 22:31:01 jacekowski: don't you mean serial console? Sep 04 22:31:14 * ShadowJK has xchat on n810, n900 and desktop :) Sep 04 22:31:34 i think it's called serial trace interface on arm Sep 04 22:31:45 umm Sep 04 22:31:52 DocScrutinizer, i think ive used that one on the zaurus emulation once... Sep 04 22:31:59 that sounds like JTAG then Sep 04 22:32:01 the gdbstub Sep 04 22:32:24 what i mean is qemu-system-arm -M foo -s ... Sep 04 22:32:33 then in gdb: target remote 127.1:1234 Sep 04 22:32:50 as I said, enough to debug at work, not to really get too interested in debugging my *phone* Sep 04 22:33:07 maybe other stuff at home, but not particularly interested in debugging the only phone I use :) Sep 04 22:33:17 I'd love to have a decent way to debug musb-core Sep 04 22:33:20 no, i meant debug a qemu guest Sep 04 22:34:04 DocScrutinizer, idunno if the n900 qemu emulates usb, but if it does... Sep 04 22:34:05 but that depends on qemu emulation that's not perfect Sep 04 22:34:09 and I'm quite sure qemu won't help with that Sep 04 22:34:30 guys how do iget flash for firefox? Sep 04 22:34:32 jacekowski, true Sep 04 22:34:35 in my maemo Sep 04 22:34:46 afaik impossible Sep 04 22:34:56 oh Sep 04 22:35:02 nox-: it had to emulate mentorgraphics musb-core hardware. I doubt anything does on this planet Sep 04 22:35:17 ok :) Sep 04 22:36:30 how do i get flash for my friefox in my nokai N900? Sep 04 22:36:40 i want to play youtube content Sep 04 22:36:47 please Sep 04 22:36:49 then just go onto youtube? Sep 04 22:37:11 which part of youtube *doesn't* work? Sep 04 22:38:11 DocScrutinizer: I would be surrprised if there wasn't a musb emulator at mentor graphics in vhdl forrm for testing. Maybe on a fpga Sep 04 22:38:24 flash in firefox doesn't work Sep 04 22:38:41 but it does in microb, just use that one Sep 04 22:38:45 ahh ofc, i missed that SpeedEvil Sep 04 22:40:07 flash is disabled in firefox because the performance sucks Sep 04 22:40:21 hah Sep 04 22:40:31 * timeless_mbp can't remember if it's possible to enable Sep 04 22:40:45 as if that was news with flash :) Sep 04 22:40:54 * ShadowJK vaguely remembers some discussion about the performance issues on meego-devel iirc Sep 04 22:41:21 flash is just `optimized for windows' Sep 04 22:41:40 iirc it basically boiled down to architecture causing shitloads of extra memcpy() Sep 04 22:42:15 arch of fennec/blah/plugininterface/etc or something Sep 04 22:42:25 timeless_mbp, it can be enabled Sep 04 22:42:29 idk hwo Sep 04 22:42:31 how* Sep 04 22:42:38 about:config ? Sep 04 22:43:39 flash is so handicapped already as-is, I'd imagine the performance would be unusable if it doesn't have a straight path to the screen :/ Sep 04 22:47:54 hi any debian packaging gurus here? Sep 04 22:49:07 I sort-of-wonder if there is a way to do a flash app. Sep 04 22:49:10 I have a problem that I made a deb package of my app, but if is start app from the app launcher it fails to start. If I run it as a "root" from xterm it works so the problem is running it as a "user" Sep 04 22:49:28 so is this somekind of permission problem? Sep 04 22:49:30 I mean - somerthing that basically runs flash in such a mode where it's fullscreen Sep 04 22:49:39 and direct to the screen Sep 04 22:50:15 zchydem, it might not be user/root issue Sep 04 22:50:32 its more likely potentially to be a problem in your .desktop Sep 04 22:51:21 or in control-file Sep 04 22:51:35 lcuk: ok. What should I look from there? Sep 04 22:51:58 zchydem, which package is it? and is it in -devel for us to install and look ourselves? (what is it by the way Sep 04 22:52:25 lcuk: it's not yet in devel.. It's QuickFlickr a QML/C++ based flickr client for n900 Sep 04 22:52:47 I'm working on packaging now, but I want to test it first on my own device Sep 04 22:52:52 pastebin your .desktop file Sep 04 22:52:54 sure Sep 04 22:52:59 sec Sep 04 22:53:01 and it looks supertight by the way Sep 04 22:53:26 much kudos from many folks to you for just the hint of this Sep 04 22:53:58 http://zchydem.enume.net/2010/08/15/quickflickr-on-n900/ Sep 04 22:54:03 for those that havent seen the video Sep 04 22:54:44 lcuk: thanks for promoting:) Sep 04 22:54:48 lcuk: http://pastebin.ca/1933061 Sep 04 22:56:05 a newer video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMI0b9-ChTs with more features Sep 04 22:56:07 btw, "su user" changes you to user Sep 04 22:56:14 zchydem: check also control -file, maybe wrong architecture (armel), wrong section (must be user/) ? Sep 04 22:56:17 for you to test also Sep 04 22:56:50 lcuk: I tested to run it as user already and it works then.. Sep 04 22:57:01 Jartza: I'll check that too.. Sep 04 22:57:17 * zchydem sucks when it comes to debian packaging... Sep 04 22:58:20 Jartza: section is user/other and the Architecture is "any" Sep 04 22:58:24 ok zchydem Sep 04 22:58:26 I guess the any could be armel Sep 04 22:58:35 do you have to start in a specific folder? Sep 04 22:58:40 or doesnt your app care Sep 04 22:59:01 ie is it opening in the wrong folder, finding nothing and bailing Sep 04 22:59:25 and is there a chance you can write to a log file on startup to confirm whether or not its being run Sep 04 22:59:26 zchydem: change architecture to armel Sep 04 22:59:42 Jartza: just did. Building a new package atm... Sep 04 23:00:06 if the files are getting to the right location Sep 04 23:00:16 its not those things (tho fixing them is the right thing to do) Sep 04 23:00:30 by saying that an icon exists to be clicked on Sep 04 23:00:36 i would assume that to be the case Sep 04 23:02:30 oh yeah, and "of course" in maemo you have to install the desktop-file to non-debian-folder, /usr/share/applications/hildon/ Sep 04 23:02:35 :) Sep 04 23:03:06 yeah Sep 04 23:03:16 leads to duplications if you want a cross platform app Sep 04 23:03:28 but thats not too much of an issue Sep 04 23:04:16 hmm thanks guys all the help.. I'm gonna test if this next package works and if not, I'll cont. tomorrow Sep 04 23:04:21 zchydem, does your application register with osso and have a service file? i notice its missing from the startup Sep 04 23:04:23 ok Sep 04 23:04:31 http://github.com/lcuk/liqcalc/blob/master/base_fs/usr/share/applications/hildon/liqcalc.desktop Sep 04 23:04:42 is the .desktops i use by the way Sep 04 23:05:00 you could try similar and put some echos into a script Sep 04 23:05:04 ok thanks. I'll check it out Sep 04 23:05:10 to confirm things are being run, then call your main app Sep 04 23:07:48 zchydem: oh... user/other is not in the list of allowed ones... Sep 04 23:08:31 zchydem: check http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging#Sections Sep 04 23:08:51 oh sorry Sep 04 23:08:59 ok Sep 04 23:09:15 looks like "other" is the default, if it begins with user/... so should work Sep 04 23:10:06 If the package's section starts "user/", but is not any of the above, the Application Manager forces them into an "Other" section. Sep 04 23:10:21 didn't remember that :) Sep 04 23:10:36 Jartza, what does it say about apps in the "waesome/" category? Sep 04 23:10:41 awesome even Sep 04 23:10:42 ffs Sep 04 23:11:10 nothing :) Sep 04 23:12:51 Gotta love gangsters who think they're some city until some 70-year-old woman runs after them with a cellphone. Sep 04 23:13:19 heh GAN900 yeah "dont take my photo" Sep 04 23:13:33 or were you meaning as a weapon ;) Sep 04 23:14:04 isn't installing rootsh a huge security hole or am i missing something? Sep 04 23:21:06 is there a way to install a deb package without having to install rootsh? Sep 04 23:21:19 no Sep 04 23:21:29 yes Sep 04 23:21:33 use HAM Sep 04 23:21:44 after publishing the deb to maemo.org :) Sep 04 23:21:51 ha Sep 04 23:21:53 so everyone can benefit Sep 04 23:22:55 unless it's in a non user/ section, then you need to install rootsh Sep 04 23:23:24 umm? Sep 04 23:23:37 if its non user app why is it needed by regular user :P Sep 04 23:23:41 just copy the .deb to your phone and start install from file manager Sep 04 23:31:03 Jartza: thank you ! Sep 04 23:31:25 np Sep 04 23:44:50 bummer, it looks like the app manager can't install offlineimap :/ Sep 04 23:53:17 KaKaRoTo, how many buttons should the app have? Sep 04 23:53:39 one for enable, one for disable, were you adding two more things? Sep 04 23:54:31 MohammadAG, for now just hack with 2, you can add more after easily Sep 04 23:54:44 lcuk, not if you're using a custom design Sep 04 23:55:51 wow has it got so complex that you cannot just add/remove buttons from a layout with ease? Sep 04 23:56:19 the app functionality is important, just do it with 2 without worrying about design? Sep 04 23:56:26 then stick a coat of paint on it Sep 05 00:02:01 when i try to install offlineimap locally i get "unable to install, incompatible application package" from the app manager Sep 05 00:07:58 use dpkg Sep 05 00:08:47 i'm trying to install without using rootsh Sep 05 00:09:04 same error when trying to install mutt package too Sep 05 00:09:45 Anyone know where I can get more information about rapuyama? Sep 05 00:09:48 What repo is "offlineimap" from? Sep 05 00:10:15 devel Sep 05 00:10:30 SpeedEvil1, ping ^^ since you seem to know about these hardware things Sep 05 00:10:57 ShadowJK: same with mutt Sep 05 00:11:06 ShadowJK: i was able to install vim at least Sep 05 00:13:43 MNZ, afaik the cellular side (which includes rapuyama) is essentially "secret" Sep 05 00:14:34 It's actually literally "side" too, the main board has the modem and stuff on one side and the CPU, RAM and linuxy stuff on the other side Sep 05 00:14:35 ShadowJK, hmm that would explain all the shit that comes up when I google it Sep 05 00:16:27 MNZ: there's not much moe than a block diagram of BB5 rapuyama Sep 05 00:17:01 ok, so the verdict is we can't tap that Sep 05 00:17:18 plus of course the info related to flashing etc of phones based on BB5 only Sep 05 00:17:19 It's a pretty sophisticated thing though Sep 05 00:17:34 It could run an entire low-end phone on its own, screen keyboard and all Sep 05 00:17:55 which it actually does Sep 05 00:18:07 * ShadowJK bets it's also inside the modem-only Nokia CS-15 Sep 05 00:29:01 MohammadAG, don't know, depends on what the buttons are supposed to do ? Sep 05 00:29:21 on/off Sep 05 00:29:27 MohammadAG, well, I suppose that opening the application would 'enable it automatically Sep 05 00:29:33 closing the application would disable it automatically Sep 05 00:29:39 that's too basic Sep 05 00:29:54 if it gets disabled during runtime of the app, a "re-enable module" should appear/activate Sep 05 00:30:12 it should automatically disable once the exploit succeeds Sep 05 00:30:47 just a single button Sep 05 00:30:55 "enable module" when it's unloaded Sep 05 00:31:01 and "disable module" when it's loaded Sep 05 00:31:03 nothing automatical Sep 05 00:31:08 kerio, you think ? Sep 05 00:31:13 and a label that tracks the status of the module Sep 05 00:31:21 * KaKaRoTo is really really bad at user-friendliness/design Sep 05 00:31:33 yeah, or you'll accidentally open the application while scrolling the menu and you'll fuck up your usb connections Sep 05 00:31:47 kerio, true Sep 05 00:32:19 MohammadAG, now (latest git, locally) I have a file in /proc/psfreedom/status Sep 05 00:32:34 which gives you the status of the state machine when read Sep 05 00:32:58 atm, it's the string "INIT/DEVICE1_WAIT_READY/etc.." no \n, no \0 at the end Sep 05 00:33:24 should I make it the binary value of the enum ? Sep 05 00:33:31 or keep it as a string ? Sep 05 00:33:36 and should I append \n to it ? Sep 05 00:34:59 kerio, MohammadAG: also, now you can install firmwares for the module Sep 05 00:35:08 firmwares? Sep 05 00:35:14 /lib/firmware/psfreedom_payload.bin and /lib/firmware/psfreedom_shellcode.bin Sep 05 00:35:41 * lcuk gets nervous around terms such at payload and shellcode Sep 05 00:35:49 so the app should allow the user to set (browse) his own payload, + give him a combobox of available payloads (shipped with psfreedom) Sep 05 00:36:07 I currently have the BD-emu support, and without BD-emu support payloads Sep 05 00:36:33 * KaKaRoTo might be aiming at more advanced users here... Sep 05 00:44:44 MNZ: What ShadowJK said. Sep 05 00:44:57 MNZ: You need ninjas, or really expensive prostitutes to find out. Sep 05 00:45:38 hahaha Sep 05 01:07:42 hmm, am i not supposed to include both GLES/gl.h and GLES2/gl2.h? Sep 05 01:09:44 no Sep 05 01:09:59 u are either gles2 or gles1 Sep 05 01:10:03 wooohooo, new laptop! Sep 05 01:10:04 gles2 is gl2.h Sep 05 01:10:28 ok Sep 05 01:10:47 gles2 is not a superset of gles1 Sep 05 01:10:51 disjoint sets Sep 05 01:11:13 yea, gles2 being WEIRD Sep 05 01:11:25 well no more so than 1.1 Sep 05 01:33:04 KaKaRoTo: kerio: no way never! elementary guidelines for GUI design, §1: never use toggle buttons, especialy not on touchscreens. §2: don't require user to read labels to distinguish what a button does. §3 make sure you always have either a double-action user interface ("are you sure") or alternatively a way to undo that doesn't cause any harm Sep 05 01:34:18 anyone just how far compatible are the omap3430 and omap35xx's ? Sep 05 01:34:39 s/anyone/anyone know/ Sep 05 01:34:40 MNZ meant: anyone know just how far compatible are the omap3430 and omap35xx's ? Sep 05 01:34:55 it's same chip, just different marketing aiui Sep 05 01:35:49 ok, second question. Is the video/audio hardware accel on these chips used? Sep 05 01:36:10 afaik yes Sep 05 01:36:38 MNZ, powervr, yes Sep 05 01:36:43 AVI potentailly no Sep 05 01:36:45 IVA Sep 05 01:37:13 the IVA contains certain accelerated hardware things Sep 05 01:37:23 i believe one of them is hardware jpeg decoding Sep 05 01:37:27 but i may be mistaken Sep 05 01:37:39 it might be video decoding perhaps Sep 05 01:37:40 yeah, jpeg enc/dec according to datasheet Sep 05 01:37:47 and there's a video decoder Sep 05 01:37:57 that has a higher chance of being used Sep 05 01:38:12 H.264? Sep 05 01:38:24 263? Sep 05 01:38:24 yep doc Sep 05 01:38:31 yup Sep 05 01:38:53 mnz, all the image thumbnails on the system are jpeg Sep 05 01:39:04 and all your photos stored Sep 05 01:39:08 and lots of the web Sep 05 01:39:10 and we even have WMV and RealMedia 8 and 9 :D Sep 05 01:39:18 and if the silicon is idle .. Sep 05 01:41:08 MNZ, does it also have optimized image scaling routines Sep 05 01:42:00 gnite Sep 05 01:42:01 \o Sep 05 01:42:13 night lcuk Sep 05 01:42:27 and no image scaling according to a quick grep of the datasheet Sep 05 01:42:57 it does yuv conversions though IIRC... Sep 05 01:43:13 yeah i know Sep 05 01:43:19 vlad has done something also Sep 05 01:43:35 somehow he got yuv overlay, underlaid behind the desktop Sep 05 01:43:40 for the livebg stuff Sep 05 01:43:49 Other units do scaling Sep 05 01:43:57 i am just fiddling atm to see how well it works Sep 05 01:44:05 * RST38h wonders who the hell came up with these hideous island-key keyboards Sep 05 01:44:25 The guy probably never expected people actually type using these keyboards Sep 05 01:44:35 RST38h, ? the split down the middle ones? Sep 05 01:44:38 *or* use their screens for anything other than watching movies Sep 05 01:44:49 lcuk: now, the macbook-like ones Sep 05 01:45:11 with nasty little square keys located some space apart Sep 05 01:45:34 ahh i have an apple bt mini keyboard Sep 05 01:45:37 i know what you mean Sep 05 01:45:49 my fingers bounce of the keys exceptionally well, i like them Sep 05 01:46:35 gnite anyway :P Sep 05 01:47:03 raster: a short comment on 'optimizing performance by replacing x11 by fb + own libs"? As that's what's been discussed here some hours ago :-) Sep 05 01:47:43 * RST38h cackles noting that modern UIs mostly shuffle bitmaps anyway Sep 05 01:47:56 so, 90% of the X11 API goes unused :) Sep 05 01:48:01 raster: iirc you were quite clear on that, last time a similar idea was bounced around Sep 05 01:48:12 RST38h, which is exactly what we were saying :/ Sep 05 01:49:48 who cares about unused api? Sep 05 01:50:08 you don't have to carry it on your back uphill Sep 05 01:50:26 DocScrutinizer, it means X11 is largely not to blame for the slow downs Sep 05 01:50:35 RST38h: "so what?" Sep 05 01:50:58 "90% of the linux kernel source goes unused?" Sep 05 01:51:07 shiould we just use a different kernel/os entirely? Sep 05 01:51:13 gnu/hurd! :D Sep 05 01:51:15 * pronto hides Sep 05 01:51:19 hehehe Sep 05 01:52:53 DocScrutinizer: summary of earlier convo? Sep 05 01:52:53 raster, earlier, we were arguing on whether X11 is really a huge slow down Sep 05 01:53:15 ie "l;ets just ditch x11 and do everythnig direct to fb?" Sep 05 01:53:21 DocScrutinizer, to be clear, additional functionality isn't the issue, its the sheer number and extent of branching within the existing used functions that adds to the complexity Sep 05 01:53:26 X11 slowdown is a lie. Sep 05 01:53:36 MNZ: i'd say thats a fallacy :) Sep 05 01:53:47 the vast majority of the cases for "x11 os slow" is "the driver sucks" Sep 05 01:53:48 its not on its own Sep 05 01:53:53 and that happens irrespective of x11 or not Sep 05 01:53:54 but if its used for a lot of things Sep 05 01:53:56 Which is what I was saying... Sep 05 01:53:58 u'd have sucky drivers anywhere Sep 05 01:53:58 as it is told to Sep 05 01:54:02 it becomes an issue Sep 05 01:54:21 the other side is that x11 EXPOSEs a chunk of cpu "time" that apps would use ANYWAY Sep 05 01:54:30 it just shows up in "top' to be x11 Sep 05 01:54:37 jacekowski, ^^ Sep 05 01:54:40 And the memory usage confuses people too Sep 05 01:54:50 and people "bitch" that "omg! x11 is using 20% cpu! if i didnt have x11 it'd be 20% faster!" Sep 05 01:55:08 where in almost every single case all that you'd do is move that 20% to another windowing system daemon Sep 05 01:55:16 OR u'd put it bakc into the process itself Sep 05 01:55:25 and u'd have a zero-sum gain Sep 05 01:55:28 same with memory usage too Sep 05 01:55:31 no different Sep 05 01:55:41 there are SOME areas where x could be much better Sep 05 01:55:43 some Sep 05 01:56:04 There is some interesting work being done on hot-code path optimisation in processors. Sep 05 01:56:15 but the only people who can intelligently discuss those and know what they are generally the same peolpe that know the deep down innards of x11 Sep 05 01:56:16 Throwing out all but the bare subset to run common apps Sep 05 01:56:22 and xlib and toolkits/wm's/compositors Sep 05 01:56:30 oh, interesting SpeedEvil Sep 05 01:56:41 For example - if GCC doesn't use the instruction - there is little point in putting it on silicon Sep 05 01:56:48 As a silly example. Sep 05 01:56:58 At least in a primary core that's for battery saving Sep 05 01:56:59 and they all pretty much agree that x11 isnt really to be thrown out - just improved a bit and optimised where usage patterns change to work around a feature missing or use a path that before was less used and optimised Sep 05 01:57:18 raster: dunno Sep 05 01:57:25 i do know Sep 05 01:57:26 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100901091940.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Latest+Science+News%29&utm_content=Google+UK Sep 05 01:57:29 :) Sep 05 01:57:53 raster, since the world is a big enough place Sep 05 01:58:11 we already have people looking at both alternatives Sep 05 01:58:17 and will no doubt meet somewhere in the middle Sep 05 01:58:30 i've spent more time over the past 15 years or so making x dance and do things no one thought it could or should to need to worry that there is an argument for ditching x11. Sep 05 01:58:48 lcuk: there is no middle Sep 05 01:58:57 lcuk: u dont "half get rid of x11" Sep 05 01:59:11 raster: umm Sep 05 01:59:14 chances are x11 just gets a new extension or 2 Sep 05 01:59:27 * SpeedEvil trrries to remember that half-get-rid-of-x11 thing. Sep 05 01:59:44 legacy "rarely used ops" are relegated to a blob of "it works but no one bothers with it anymore" code Sep 05 01:59:44 It implemented x11 on windows using native windows Sep 05 02:00:02 SpeedEvil: tinyx? Sep 05 02:00:05 microwindows? Sep 05 02:00:07 Rarely used ops in software - yes - in hardware they may actually cost. Sep 05 02:00:14 native mswindows Sep 05 02:00:25 there was some attempt to do it in-0kernel with a libx11 (xlib-compat thing) on the kernel Sep 05 02:00:34 dunno Sep 05 02:00:38 there was one for amiga os too Sep 05 02:00:40 i believe Sep 05 02:00:41 way back Sep 05 02:00:42 theres also wayland Sep 05 02:00:44 I haven't used windows for a while. Sep 05 02:00:48 the problemis you are not fully compatible Sep 05 02:00:51 98SE I think it was. Sep 05 02:00:52 yeah Sep 05 02:00:52 you are... annoyingly close Sep 05 02:00:52 VS C++ Express requires 2.4GB for installation Sep 05 02:00:55 raster, sure Sep 05 02:00:57 WHAT THE HELL FOR? Sep 05 02:01:18 documentation Sep 05 02:01:20 msdn is large Sep 05 02:01:24 and the sdk also Sep 05 02:01:49 x11 is changing in many ways Sep 05 02:01:54 its adding multitouch support Sep 05 02:02:02 hell - its already all possible - its a driver + toolkit matter Sep 05 02:02:06 * SpeedEvil sighs at stupid patents. Sep 05 02:02:12 efl already supports multitouch Sep 05 02:02:15 has for a while now Sep 05 02:02:20 Which reminds me - I need to mail vmware. Sep 05 02:02:37 yeah raster, cool Sep 05 02:02:40 works for me on my devices.. but thats ebcause they have mt screens and drviers and xi2 is exposing multiple touch point devices Sep 05 02:02:52 so i dont see how u can say "u need to kill x11 because of mt" Sep 05 02:02:53 * RST38h wonders if he can skip msdn Sep 05 02:03:00 compositing is a new brave world of pain for x11 Sep 05 02:03:08 'I intend to rewrite this 1998 kernel code for the current kernel' Can you confirm that you will not take legal action WRT your 2004 patent' Sep 05 02:03:26 raster, sure managing a bitmap surface of that size is a pain Sep 05 02:03:27 its quite amazing that it works Sep 05 02:03:29 * lcuk tries not to Sep 05 02:03:41 and a chunk of little things its bad at can actually be solved entirely between compositors and toolkits Sep 05 02:03:49 x11 core doesnt need to be involved at all Sep 05 02:03:53 the hard bit is agreeing Sep 05 02:04:02 but i think there is a willingess to agree and improve there Sep 05 02:04:12 raster: linero? Sep 05 02:04:26 the only things right now that i think x11 could really need is Sep 05 02:04:27 or aligned projects? Sep 05 02:04:33 1. input translation/manager Sep 05 02:04:59 You do all understand that you are repeating the same argument that led to XRender extension many years ago? Sep 05 02:05:09 (like wm and cm - we need an im. and not the scim/xim one. one were mouse, key etc. events go thru a translation/manager layer that can enforce policy - transforms etc. etc.) Sep 05 02:05:16 and Sep 05 02:05:26 And (on smaller scale) to the client-side X11 API implementation, framebuffer-based GTK and Qt, etc Sep 05 02:05:52 2. a "better" shm than mit-shm for directly exposing pixeld ata to avoid copies (when possible with the hw arch underneath) Sep 05 02:06:11 SpeedEvil: linaro? no. :) Sep 05 02:06:12 * RST38h personally thinks all UI has to be moved to EMACS, out of malice and sociopathy Sep 05 02:06:42 * lcuk creates an instance of RST38h in plan9 Sep 05 02:07:02 plan9 was good, so was AmigaOS =) Sep 05 02:07:12 ++ Sep 05 02:07:22 hehehe Sep 05 02:07:26 i loved my workbench Sep 05 02:07:36 lcuk: BTW, yet another crazy enterpreneur has bought Amiga trademark and is going to sell newly built A500s with AROS Sep 05 02:07:37 Forbid() was my favorite syscall Sep 05 02:07:41 yeah, cygnused and directory opus kicked ass Sep 05 02:07:52 yes RST38h i saw Sep 05 02:07:57 Give whole meaning to the phrase "screwing a dead horse" Sep 05 02:07:59 computer in a keyboard was awesome Sep 05 02:08:05 I had the joy to learn about multitasking OS from NeXT & AmigaOS Sep 05 02:08:09 * SpeedEvil ponders what old computer hardware he'd like. Sep 05 02:08:21 i read from cover to cover many times the amiga basic manual Sep 05 02:08:42 i had no other source of computing input other than library books and magazines at the time Sep 05 02:08:46 * RST38h was blown away by the multiple screens concept Sep 05 02:08:53 did u have the system programmers guide? Sep 05 02:08:57 and the KRM? Sep 05 02:08:58 err Sep 05 02:09:00 RKM? Sep 05 02:09:15 RKM yeah Sep 05 02:09:21 way too much fun dreaming up copper lists :) Sep 05 02:09:35 HAM mode was kickass Sep 05 02:09:52 it was a cool hack Sep 05 02:09:53 HAM mode is nothing compared to some V9958 modes on MSX2+ Sep 05 02:09:55 but it proved most annoying Sep 05 02:10:11 and I was liking fractals and coding Sep 05 02:10:14 raster: funnily, this "hack" is used nowadays, in many DVD players Sep 05 02:10:22 ugh Sep 05 02:10:27 that explains the quality Sep 05 02:10:44 raster: only they also make it non-linear (checkerboard-like) to optimize for MPEG decoding Sep 05 02:11:23 raster: Quality? What quality? Check your MPEG format. Then, just to be sure, check PAL format description ;) Sep 05 02:11:44 pal... pffft Sep 05 02:11:48 analogue Sep 05 02:11:49 composite Sep 05 02:11:51 pffffffffffffffffffffffft Sep 05 02:11:53 yuk Sep 05 02:12:14 What is wrong with analogue? Classic games look way better in analogue Sep 05 02:12:26 yuk Sep 05 02:14:15 deep down, you know you want all your apps all in html5/javascript, sitting in a cloud somewhere Sep 05 02:15:08 pigeon: and run by google. Sep 05 02:15:39 would you like a toilet plunger with that? Sep 05 02:15:41 irssi and bitlbee Sep 05 02:15:50 in a screen Sep 05 02:16:07 * SpeedEvil sighs. Sep 05 02:16:21 I still need to work out how to get xrandr to do non-orthogonal screens Sep 05 02:16:50 I want to lie down, and 30 degrees off would be about right for optimal comfort. Sep 05 02:16:58 (of my laptop) Sep 05 02:17:41 * DocScrutinizer suggests prism goggles Sep 05 02:18:02 direct neural interface Sep 05 02:18:20 (just remove the eyes and plug into eyesockets) Sep 05 02:18:43 or just rotate eyes by 30° Sep 05 02:18:52 gooood idea Sep 05 02:18:55 Actually - the more logical solution would be to take my laptop apart, and replace the baseplate. Sep 05 02:19:01 So it can actually be used mobile Sep 05 02:19:13 hang it from the ceiling by a thread Sep 05 02:20:47 * RST38h wonders if answering a guy named "Fresh Prince of Nowhere" is socially acceptable Sep 05 02:20:54 Prolly not Sep 05 02:24:08 On pondering somewhat - the only bit of old computer hardware I'd really like would be a difference engine. Sep 05 02:25:51 I'd like a nice HP-calculator Sep 05 02:26:08 with real cool buttons Sep 05 02:26:33 darn, those guys knew how to build keyboards Sep 05 02:27:03 SpeedEvil: horizontal doesn't work for you? Sep 05 02:27:46 horizontal? Sep 05 02:28:40 my HP-41CV incinerated 2 years ago :`( Sep 05 02:30:29 night folks! Sep 05 02:41:06 pupnik: Oh. My head is -------- Sep 05 02:41:22 __________/ Sep 05 02:41:26 up like that a bit Sep 05 02:41:32 For comfort. Sep 05 02:41:40 So I want the display canted too Sep 05 02:42:07 yeah Sep 05 02:42:38 try this sometime - look in a mirror at your eyeballs - tilt your head left and right - do your eyeballs auto-level to horizontal? Sep 05 02:44:48 Are you high? Sep 05 02:44:55 Of course not. Sep 05 02:45:43 wat Sep 05 02:48:00 REadiing text that's tilted at a 30 degree angle is just not comfortable Sep 05 02:49:27 err, you might want to rotate the text, or if that's not possible, yourself a bit to make things more ... orthogonal Sep 05 02:50:03 SpeedEvil: mine do :/ Sep 05 02:51:22 pupnik: They don't. Sep 05 02:51:35 The eyeballs do not have rotation as one of their degrees of freedom. Sep 05 02:51:59 If yours do, then please check youself into your local secret alien-vivisection base. Sep 05 02:52:07 i knew it... Sep 05 02:53:05 haha **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Sep 05 02:59:57 2010