**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Sep 19 02:59:56 2010 Sep 19 05:04:56 hey guys i need the SDK to run madde? Sep 19 05:05:18 toolchain or so? Sep 19 05:45:11 ALoGeNo: no Sep 19 05:46:24 just the qt creator Sep 19 06:51:00 since there's no more save/load state in psx4all (WHY?), is there at least some option to pause rendering ? Sep 19 07:40:43 How do I kill matchbox on Diablo and keep it dead? It keeps respawning? Sep 19 07:40:54 That last sentence wasn't a question. :S Sep 19 07:42:00 replace it with something a script named matchbox that starts and just sleeps forever? Sep 19 07:42:06 s/something// Sep 19 07:42:06 johnx meant: replace it with a script named matchbox that starts and just sleeps forever? Sep 19 07:42:31 johnx: Sure, but I'm wondering what makes it respawn in the first place. matchbox-remote -exit does not work. Sep 19 07:42:48 jaem, probably init scripts. not sure about Diablo, but if it uses upstart then probably 'stop matchbox' Sep 19 07:42:49 probably watched by the watchdog? Sep 19 07:43:09 MNZ: It might be init scripts, but it doesn't use upstart, IIRC Sep 19 07:43:21 johnx: Which watchdog? Sep 19 07:43:22 I don't think Diablo used upstart Sep 19 07:43:40 jaem, that's left as an exercise to the reader (aka, I don't know) Sep 19 07:44:04 johnx: Heh... fair enough Sep 19 09:05:54 hmm Sep 19 09:06:02 hello good evening everyone. I'm not sure what is wrong with my n900, but I don't seem to have an /apps/osso/hildon-home folder..why could that be? I'm on or should be on PR 1.2 Sep 19 09:06:41 I don't have that either. are you sure that's the exact path? Sep 19 09:06:55 grep -r matchbox /etc -- should help but he's gone it seems Sep 19 09:06:55 is that something I install or is that something that should be already on my n900 because of PR 1.2? Is it possible that I did not completely reset my n900 back to factory before I upgraded to 1.2? Sep 19 09:07:22 why do you think you need that directory? Sep 19 09:07:45 johnx: if you look at this http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=62091&page=8 they are talking about running those commands to resize the icons Sep 19 09:08:01 i for some reason don't have that command...and i'm wondering what the problem could be. Sep 19 09:10:27 those gconf things are not paths in filesystem Sep 19 09:10:54 n900_user, if you don't know what a command does, you should read up on it Sep 19 09:11:03 gconftool is well documented Sep 19 09:11:59 johnx: i know what the command does, but the problem is that I don't have those paths on my n900. I just don't know if I did something wrong when I reset it months ago when PR 1.2 came out or not. I'd hate to having to wipe again to factory default because I've already got so much on my phone right now. Sep 19 09:12:28 timoph: so my phone is completely normal if I don't have those things? because I do not see a single folder starting with /apps/ Sep 19 09:12:37 I can't find a config file for sshd in the n900's maemo - does it not exist and can I create one and if so, where and what to call it? Sep 19 09:12:55 n900_user: yes Sep 19 09:13:43 n900_user, you don't know what the command does if you think those are paths on your filesystem Sep 19 09:14:52 jpinx, it's in /etc/ssh and it's called sshd_config Sep 19 09:15:22 johnx: I was able to ls that, but when I went to cat it it says no such file Sep 19 09:15:34 are you root? Sep 19 09:15:37 jaem: (away): $AF_INIT_DIR/matchbox.sh -> #!/bin/sh # Matchbox window manager startup/shutdown script Sep 19 09:15:41 yep ;) Sep 19 09:16:32 jpinx, run cat /etc/ssh/sshd_config Sep 19 09:16:39 hang on - there's 2 - one is ssh_config and he other is shd_config Sep 19 09:17:55 so which one do I play with to get X-forwarding to work? Sep 19 09:18:25 sshd like he said Sep 19 09:19:00 jpinx, you should play with whatever file you're told to edit in the howto you're following ;) Sep 19 09:19:12 johnx: :) Sep 19 09:19:36 johnx: I actually want to forward X froma chroot - no howto's for that ;) Sep 19 09:20:13 jpinx, are you running a separate x server in the chroot? Sep 19 09:20:25 johnx: yes Sep 19 09:20:45 and things run in the chroot connect to it normally? Sep 19 09:21:16 johnx: I've only been doing cl stuff up till now Sep 19 09:21:37 this instance of irssi is running int the chroot on the n900 and contrrolled from my eeepc ;) Sep 19 09:22:01 ssh over usb, with the eeepc wifi doing the gateway Sep 19 09:22:16 you know irssi is available in extras or extras-devel/testing, right? Sep 19 09:22:56 johnx: yea - I installed it in maemo too, but i am spending all my time in the chroot now and wanted to get maybe links2 -g to work over ssh Sep 19 09:23:33 I started with the standard chroot supplied by maemo and then went on to modify it a bit Sep 19 09:24:30 n900_user, those directories that you can't see are virtual hives, they don't exist on the real filesystem Sep 19 09:25:35 psycho_oreos: thanks for checking up on that. i just wonder why all those people then say that they can successfully use those commands in order to resize their icons/shortcuts Sep 19 09:25:36 jpinx, yup. what you're tring to do isn't actually that simple. I would draw out a network diagram for yourself including maemo and the debian chroot as separate machines, then try and follow a howto and substitute in the right things for your setup Sep 19 09:25:42 think of it as like registry entries under windows Sep 19 09:25:43 jaem: $LAUNCHWRAPPER_NICE_TRYRESTART start "$SVC" $PROG -- does what it says: tryrestart, it uses DSME afaik Sep 19 09:26:30 johnx: you're right - I have paper sketches of it all over the table here - to try and make sure I don't miss a "link"' Sep 19 09:26:38 n900_user, its a good idea to read the thread from the beginning, there's a script which would automate getting the stuff that is maybe required for it to work including matan's modified hildon-home Sep 19 09:27:38 (or if you read the manpage for gconftool you'd know what it actually does ... ) Sep 19 09:27:49 n900_user, ^ Sep 19 09:28:48 I don't think the manpage would be easily available on the n900 itself :) there's a script or something that goes around truncating manpages to save space Sep 19 09:29:07 it is available on google though Sep 19 09:29:19 or scratchbox env :) Sep 19 09:29:39 if you type: man gconftool into google, the first hit is the manpage for gconftool Sep 19 09:31:53 psycho_oreos: apt-cache search mandb Sep 19 09:32:21 psycho_oreos: my manpages are very easily available n N900 Sep 19 09:32:37 wow. will that do the right thing and un-truncate existing pages, then optify the result? Sep 19 09:32:41 * MohammadAG51 just woke up Sep 19 09:33:02 existing pages are poof, gone Sep 19 09:33:46 although i started a package which does that, i realized it might cause failed installations Sep 19 09:34:07 plus it's too cumbersome, you have to reinstall all packages on the system Sep 19 09:35:05 well, you could make a 'man' command that reinstallls the package that owns the manpage, then displays it :D Sep 19 09:35:40 right now it has man-db-pages Sep 19 09:35:56 those contain pages for most commands you'll want to man anyways Sep 19 09:37:49 but not the pages for the busybox versions, right? Sep 19 09:38:04 probably not Sep 19 09:38:11 i.e tar is gtar Sep 19 09:38:22 * MohammadAG51 doesn't use busybox Sep 19 09:38:52 ah, it hasn't quite pissed me off enough to stop using it yet Sep 19 09:41:16 mmm. I <3 deals.woot.com. ninja grappling hook: $17.36 Sep 19 09:53:43 Morning, all Sep 19 09:54:09 grr Sep 19 09:54:09 MohammadAG51: Need a hand with GPG? Sep 19 09:54:14 moo mo Sep 19 09:54:17 screw messybox, manpages fr useless cruft are useless anyway Sep 19 09:55:47 DocScrutinizer, thank you for you for your valuable opinion. however, if you want to write any script that you plan to distribute you do actually need to know busybox Sep 19 09:57:45 hi, new to n900. i just added http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel for extra devel mirror but getting error 404. Is there another url for it? Sep 19 09:59:12 johnx: that's kinda sadly correct Sep 19 09:59:35 stef_204, that part seems right Sep 19 09:59:47 it might be the 'components' field that you mistyped though Sep 19 09:59:50 or the other one ... Sep 19 09:59:55 let me see what mine says, one sec Sep 19 10:00:18 ok, i used this--on bottom of page http://nokia-n900.com/office-viewer-for-nokia-n900/ Sep 19 10:00:46 http://www.mobiledownloadblog.com/2010/01/download-freoffice-maemo-application.htm Sep 19 10:00:50 I meant that one ^^ Sep 19 10:00:56 johnx: but actually script writers of initscripts should even better have known about the *differences* between messybox and a decent shell plus coreutils, to avoid breaking init when messybox is replaced by a more sane setup Sep 19 10:01:04 Distribution: freemantle Sep 19 10:01:12 Components: free Sep 19 10:01:31 DocScrutinizer, which is often *why* I need to know busybox, so I can avoid breaking maemo or on "better" shells Sep 19 10:01:46 stef_204, misspelled fremantle ;) Sep 19 10:01:51 Distrib perhaps is wrong? I see there is also freemantle 1.2 and 1.3 Sep 19 10:02:02 johnx: yikes ;) Sep 19 10:02:08 :) Sep 19 10:02:34 also, am I like the last one who noticed a 1.3 in the extras repo? does that mean anything or ... ? Sep 19 10:02:43 johnx: I'm afraid the really nasty busyboxisms aren't even mentioned in busybox manpages - if there even is such a thing Sep 19 10:02:54 lemme correct that. what's teh deal with using fremantle instead of fremantle-1.2 or fremantle-1.3 ? Sep 19 10:03:18 DocScrutinizer, there is. on their website. haven't found a discrepancy yet, but obviously YMMV Sep 19 10:03:32 johnx: nope, for now that 1.3 is just a link to prepare for a bright future :-) Sep 19 10:03:53 stef_204, if I had to guess, I'd bet that fremantle just pointed to whatever the 'current' release was Sep 19 10:04:02 johnx: ok Sep 19 10:04:04 fremantle-1.2 should be safe too I suppose Sep 19 10:04:16 ok thanks. Sep 19 10:04:27 anyone here running openoffice applications on n900? Sep 19 10:05:12 speaking for myself, I'm not a masochist Sep 19 10:05:49 johnx: me neither, which is whay I am trying to get some feedback Sep 19 10:05:50 ;) Sep 19 10:06:18 even *I* don't do that :) Sep 19 10:06:25 my experience is that it's pretty glacial on even modern notebook/desktop hardware Sep 19 10:07:30 johnx: ?? I run openoffice on my laptop (linux mandriva) and no problems--perhaps I didn't understand your last comment Sep 19 10:08:13 dunno. it just seems pretty heavy and slow even on a machine with 1GB of RAM Sep 19 10:08:36 stef_204: are you in a chroot? Sep 19 10:08:56 OOo is for *big* desktops ;) Sep 19 10:08:57 jpinx: no, haven't gotten there yet Sep 19 10:09:29 running stuff like OOo and gimp onthe n900 is just - well, I won't Sep 19 10:09:57 I have 2 GB's RAM on laptop and owrks fine. Compatibility with formatting with MS Office is not that great though, e.g. PowerPoint presentation formatting gets a bit screwed up and that's annoying Sep 19 10:10:09 but how can I complain when it's free.....? ;) Sep 19 10:10:27 yeah, quality/price is a lot better than everything else Sep 19 10:10:37 jacekowski: yep Sep 19 10:10:38 but quality itself is just poor Sep 19 10:10:50 but well, you get what you've paid for Sep 19 10:10:52 jacekowski: that's a bit harsh, IMHO Sep 19 10:11:34 well, i remember staroffice Sep 19 10:11:34 what do oyu guys recomment for MS Office documents (that is free) for the n900? FreOffice? Sep 19 10:11:36 from sun Sep 19 10:11:50 and then opensource version of it openoffice Sep 19 10:12:25 and i don't think it was improved a lot since when it was opensourced by sun Sep 19 10:13:06 jacekowski, well, we can be sure the period at sun will look like a high point compared to oracle ... Sep 19 10:13:25 I keep having to reboot into Windows from Linux when I have to do some serious editing on a Client PowerPoint where a few of us are working on same presentation Sep 19 10:14:04 you could run windows in virtual machines env Sep 19 10:14:13 what's the point Sep 19 10:14:19 if you can run native windows faster Sep 19 10:14:47 psycho_oreos: I'd love to but I am not sure I have the space on my HDD. would mean I wd have to can the actual Windows install and use the freed-up space for the VM Sep 19 10:15:33 I tried to VMware Windows converter once and didn't work out that great--super slow but must have been becasue I was running VM on a network drive Sep 19 10:16:04 the point is that you won't need to reboot/dual boot if you have windows under virtualised environment, and the performance is quite minimal unless you're doing multitasking under both OS :p Sep 19 10:16:10 moo jacekowski Sep 19 10:16:18 boo Sep 19 10:16:22 DocScrutinizer: that charging Sep 19 10:16:49 stef_204, hard drives aren't expensive these days lol Sep 19 10:16:57 DocScrutinizer: it's using very safe values Sep 19 10:17:26 psycho_oreos: I know and I agree, but canning my actual windows install is a big step since I use high end applications that only run on windows so not sure I have the mettle to mess with that and be stuck....we'll see Sep 19 10:17:31 eh? which one now? bme? hw default? jrbme scripts? Sep 19 10:17:35 nolo Sep 19 10:17:41 nolo!! Sep 19 10:17:45 :-P Sep 19 10:18:06 so it looks like nolo was supposed to be able to charge dead phone to level when it's bootable Sep 19 10:18:08 yeah, engineers are conservative, or dead :-P Sep 19 10:18:22 i mean, fully bootable Sep 19 10:18:27 but something went wrong Sep 19 10:18:36 ohh? Sep 19 10:18:52 stef_204, I didn't say you have to can windows completely you can convert that windows install into virtualised environment to save you from installing windows and configurating it all again Sep 19 10:18:53 did tests yesterday, everything went fine Sep 19 10:19:31 hw recovery charge til 3.0, nolo charge til 3.3, then normal act_dead Sep 19 10:19:54 is 3.3V enough to boot a phone? Sep 19 10:20:08 did this like 4 times in a row (discharging cell was the most pain) Sep 19 10:20:09 psycho_oreos: that's what I had done before except wasn't a good experience because, since I had no space available on my HDD for the VM, I stuck it into a network drive and tried to run the converted install from there. To say it was slow is the understatement of the year Sep 19 10:20:36 Jaffa, just a bit, doing some physics hw Sep 19 10:21:02 jacekowski: given NOLO is software running on the phone, it seems 3.0 is enough to start up the hw Sep 19 10:21:17 well, but charging is stopped Sep 19 10:21:31 who's doing that?? Sep 19 10:21:37 bme Sep 19 10:21:41 here nobody stopped charging Sep 19 10:21:50 bme stops charging on startup Sep 19 10:21:54 stef_204, which comes back to the point of actually buying portable hard disks.. you'll only need it to migrate windows into virtualised environment, once you're satisfied, you can get rid of the proper windows install and run windows from virtualisation.. either that or upgrade your network setup, it sounds like you are still using something like 100Mbit connection :) Sep 19 10:21:55 checks usb connector Sep 19 10:21:56 except NOLO when un 'u' mode Sep 19 10:22:11 and then starts charging again Sep 19 10:22:19 that may be correct Sep 19 10:22:24 so you have couple ms Sep 19 10:22:28 yup Sep 19 10:22:40 which could be enough to make phone shutdown Sep 19 10:22:54 ...which might be enough to tear down system on a crappy weak cell Sep 19 10:23:14 psycho_oreos, heh. I was until a couple months ago :P Sep 19 10:23:38 not everyone has a huge hardware budget just becase they have an N900 ... Sep 19 10:24:04 johnx, doesn't mean you have to be, just need to think outside the box for a moment or two :) Sep 19 10:24:07 psycho_oreos: I guess you are right theoretically--it's when I go to practical or implementation phase that things get bogged down--which is my fault as I haven't set aside enouth time to really do a good job on that whole conversion Sep 19 10:24:33 jacekowski: obviously a cell with a Z to cause a voltage drop of 0.3+ on maybe 500mA is to be considered dead Sep 19 10:24:48 stef_204, its just a thought, rather than having to dualboot, which creates some small downtime and a little inconvenience Sep 19 10:25:07 johnx, speaking of which I'm still using the age old 10/100Mbit switch, so I'm not that rich either :p Sep 19 10:25:42 psycho_oreos: absolutely, I totally agree. and I have wanted to do it for quite some time. But I got cold feet when the converted windows ran so slowly and didn't explore further for lack of time Sep 19 10:25:48 DocScrutinizer: well, i was using bench power supply to run my phone Sep 19 10:26:00 DocScrutinizer: and it required well over 1A Sep 19 10:26:16 jacekowski: also you battery contacts etc have to be good condition (clean, low Z) Sep 19 10:26:29 yeah, but that's gold plated Sep 19 10:26:30 WUT??? Sep 19 10:26:37 over 1000mA??? Sep 19 10:26:41 yep Sep 19 10:26:42 on boot Sep 19 10:26:47 FFS!! Sep 19 10:27:04 what the hell is going on there? Sep 19 10:27:20 rapuyama starts on full speed Sep 19 10:27:22 omap starts Sep 19 10:27:29 with everything running on full speed Sep 19 10:27:31 during transition from NOLO to act_dead? Sep 19 10:27:38 backlight on full brightness Sep 19 10:27:48 no, dead -> nolo Sep 19 10:27:58 stef_204, it sorta pays to have a nice working setup where possible, but look whos talking, I don't have my windows machine for gaming and its sitting right next to me with no OS, with no proper SATA cable, etc :) Sep 19 10:27:58 that's really bad Sep 19 10:28:22 psycho_oreos: yeah, aren't we all the same.... :) Sep 19 10:28:34 esp since there seems to be little to no hysteresis in twl4030 VDD_ok detection Sep 19 10:29:01 that could explain some reboot loops Sep 19 10:29:13 stef_204, heh, the dilemma which I guess most or all of us share :) too little time too much projects floating around Sep 19 10:29:14 jacekowski: but "backlight full brightness" on NOLO start?? Sep 19 10:29:28 yeah, i'm not sure about that Sep 19 10:29:37 psycho_oreos, then we end up on IRC, using up the little time we have. heh :) Sep 19 10:29:39 but that's probably default Sep 19 10:29:43 I am. there is no backlight with NOLO Sep 19 10:29:52 jacekowski: obsolutely Sep 19 10:29:53 at least it looks like it boots on full brightness Sep 19 10:30:00 *absolutely ;) Sep 19 10:30:06 try to switch it off and on Sep 19 10:30:11 hi all Sep 19 10:30:22 Is the radio part of the media player in Maemo open source? Sep 19 10:30:26 johnx, I consider IRC as a way to make us look more sociable and a way to get out of project hell hole that spins around and round :) Sep 19 10:30:27 jacekowski: system boot or hw boot Sep 19 10:30:29 ? Sep 19 10:30:34 hw boot Sep 19 10:30:34 I want to create an interenet radio app Sep 19 10:30:41 we need to define a few more clear terms, it seems Sep 19 10:30:47 for only for internet radio, nothing else. Sep 19 10:30:57 hw boot does NOT enable backlight Sep 19 10:31:36 psycho_oreos, I consider it the thing I mean to look at only while waiting for file transfers and stuff that has to do with my actual project Sep 19 10:31:51 you get "NOLO" on a unlit screen, and charging starts (yellow flashing) Sep 19 10:31:52 then i end up forgetting about that stuff and suddenly it's 3:30AM Sep 19 10:32:18 heh its always the case :) Sep 19 10:33:21 IRC has eaten my days and spoiled my life :-P Sep 19 10:33:47 hmm Sep 19 10:33:53 when was charger connected? Sep 19 10:34:12 ok, dead phone with no battery Sep 19 10:34:37 jacekowski: ?? Sep 19 10:34:58 ok, now pull out a battery Sep 19 10:35:06 and put it back in Sep 19 10:35:12 press power on button Sep 19 10:35:26 lcd comes on with NOKIA logo and lcd on full brightness Sep 19 10:35:39 that's already system boot Sep 19 10:36:21 on <3.3 it's supposed to shut down in less than 5s Sep 19 10:36:41 triggered by bme Sep 19 10:36:57 without bme it shuts down hard on 3.0 Sep 19 10:37:02 power on button != system Sep 19 10:37:04 hmm, take a look at Sep 19 10:37:06 http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Hacking/serial_dump Sep 19 10:37:14 [ 0.333] Über-cool backlight fade-in took 9 ms Sep 19 10:37:35 jacekowski: that's actually weird Sep 19 10:38:01 I don't see backlite on NOLO running Sep 19 10:38:08 hai Sep 19 10:38:19 hmm, different hw version Sep 19 10:38:23 different lcd? Sep 19 10:38:26 maybe NOLO does this just before loading system kernel Sep 19 10:38:38 DocScrutinizer: 3.3? Sep 19 10:38:41 is it possible to put a file on the desktop like a shortcut? Sep 19 10:38:44 there are at least 4 lcd types that nolo supports Sep 19 10:38:47 christ, for a 10Mbit connection this is going damn slow. Sep 19 10:38:49 sivang: 42? Sep 19 10:38:55 DocScrutinizer: :) Sep 19 10:38:56 do you have same lcd as i do@? Sep 19 10:39:03 hi maemo testers, new version of querymee is in extras testing, please start testing and if OK vote: http://bit.ly/cxreVB Sep 19 10:39:05 jacekowski: I bet I do Sep 19 10:39:35 jacekowski: also the type of LCD is largely irrelevant, as it is at very end of control chain Sep 19 10:39:55 well, it may be just defaults of lcd that decide on backlight status Sep 19 10:40:02 as nolo may be not touching it at all Sep 19 10:40:17 but then, why is that message on console Sep 19 10:40:31 no idea Sep 19 10:40:59 as said above it may be a function of NOLO done the very moment it loads kernel Sep 19 10:41:01 DocScrutinizer: you said something about 3.0 and 3.3, what were these? Sep 19 10:41:13 dmesg | grep LCD Sep 19 10:41:38 sivang: 3.0V is hw bootup threshold. 3.3V is NOLO boot system threshold Sep 19 10:41:53 DocScrutinizer: what does it say on yours? Sep 19 10:41:57 acx565akm Sep 19 10:41:58 ? Sep 19 10:42:10 DocScrutinizer: good to know Sep 19 10:42:17 and also 3.3V seems bme gracefull system shutdown, while 3.0 is hw brute force shutdown Sep 19 10:42:29 so no fs flushout? Sep 19 10:42:40 with 3> Sep 19 10:42:44 on hw shutdown? dunno Sep 19 10:43:19 very brute shutdown Sep 19 10:43:25 I'd think twl4030 still signals kernel about pending hard shutdown in 5s or sth Sep 19 10:43:42 * sivang tries to install acceleromymote Sep 19 10:43:50 or wahtever its spelled :) Sep 19 10:43:51 all shutdowns go trough mce Sep 19 10:43:54 hjmm, not mce Sep 19 10:44:00 that other thing Sep 19 10:44:04 dsme? Sep 19 10:44:08 yes Sep 19 10:44:13 yup Sep 19 10:44:16 and start timer Sep 19 10:44:36 except maybe hw 3.0 shutdown Sep 19 10:44:54 well, bme should signal shutdown before that Sep 19 10:45:08 so it should never get to 3V shutdown Sep 19 10:46:20 twl4030 rises an IRQ, then shuts down hw. I guess. The IRQ "IRQ_PWRFAULT" should cause kernel to immediately stop sheduling (freeze all processes), do a sync, and prepare for doom Sep 19 10:46:48 jacekowski: yes, exactly. bme *does* shutdown of system 0b 3.3 Sep 19 10:46:58 s/0b/on Sep 19 10:47:42 btw. i was thinking about external battery charger Sep 19 10:47:51 like 4x1.5V battery Sep 19 10:48:10 do you know if anybody tried 6V on that port Sep 19 10:48:28 but you can stop bme, or repeatedly poweron system, which will run with backlight and all for some few seconds each time, or keep nolo in 'u', and you'll reach 3.0 hard shutdown Sep 19 10:48:50 jacekowski: (6V) no idea Sep 19 10:48:59 bq24150 can do 25V Sep 19 10:49:13 no, it can *survive* 25V Sep 19 10:49:41 yeah, i would expect it to operate at 6V Sep 19 10:49:55 though there's more than just bq24150 on VBUS Sep 19 10:49:55 i'm not sure about melting other stuff that's connected to vbus Sep 19 10:50:09 Strange, look s like my dads vista machine blocks ssh out :/ Sep 19 10:50:49 http://kyon.pl/img/17085,cat,dog,strip,comparison,.html Sep 19 10:52:24 jacekowski: :-D Sep 19 11:00:24 jacekowski: well, 6V might be OK (don't quote me on that) Sep 19 11:02:09 but odds are bq24150 will rise an error flag, and bme is stopping charging. I'd at very least use a LD-regulator to 5V Sep 19 11:03:32 consideing voltage of one primary cell might be from 1.2 to 1.6, a booster and just 2 or 3 cells might serve much better anyway Sep 19 11:03:58 this concept is commonly known as mintybox charger Sep 19 11:05:21 hello all Sep 19 11:05:50 jacekowski: CA-146C dongle is a convenient booster and OV protector Sep 19 11:05:54 anyone awake? Sep 19 11:06:00 no Sep 19 11:06:09 ohai Sep 19 11:06:54 i have a question about my n770 and gpecalendar on os2007he Sep 19 11:07:49 all i want is a calendar to keep track of my appts on the n770 but these dependencies are driving me nutz Sep 19 11:07:51 ~ask Sep 19 11:07:51 Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will. Sep 19 11:08:15 lol Sep 19 11:09:05 os2007he has older versions of libsoup, libc6 etc. is it possible to update these easily? or is there another calendar app? Sep 19 11:12:36 alternatively, is there a sound fix available for 2008he that actually works for the n770? also is it worth it to do the 48mhz speed bump and install to mmc? Sep 19 11:13:52 it's 770, the N came with N800 Sep 19 11:14:48 :/ Sep 19 11:14:49 seems few users have working 770 nowadays Sep 19 11:15:16 well crap Sep 19 11:15:43 i was given this by one of my friends for help with an art installation, was nib sealed Sep 19 11:15:45 god damnit this download is taking forever. Sep 19 11:17:49 welp i guess i will be using my ipod touch instead Sep 19 11:19:05 koffeekan: anyway you'll have to linger on here for a day or two, to meet someone who can answer your questions regarding 770 Sep 19 11:19:44 ok Sep 19 11:21:51 I've got a working 7u0 Sep 19 11:21:55 770 .. Sep 19 11:22:11 Though it sits in a drawer doing nothing :) Sep 19 11:22:14 lol Sep 19 11:22:27 i just want a calendar so i could use it for an organiser Sep 19 11:22:27 Right next to the N800 and the N810 Sep 19 11:22:30 Hello,I wanted to know if I can install macchanger on my Maemo(to change mac),or is there any other ways? Sep 19 11:22:47 koffeekan: google calendar? :) Sep 19 11:22:52 and os2008he is too unstable, 2007he is a sweetspot Sep 19 11:23:07 koffeekan: agreed, Sep 19 11:23:58 I'm still quite suprised a 10Mbit connection is getting worse than 2Mbit speeds .. Sep 19 11:24:08 god i just wish i could get gpe working Sep 19 11:24:21 its so slick Sep 19 11:24:22 If I knew it was going to be this slow I would have just done it at my home .. Sep 19 11:24:48 I also feel slightly dirty download Windows 7 Ultimate .. Sep 19 11:25:00 +/download/downloading Sep 19 11:25:22 Hi Sep 19 11:25:30 Jaffa, w00t: about? Sep 19 11:26:47 Do we have the source to the connection manager status bar applet? Sep 19 11:27:34 dneary: pong Sep 19 11:27:42 w00t's still travelling to my knowledge Sep 19 11:27:45 Jaffa, I feel terrible Sep 19 11:27:45 dneary: w00t is on a flight, AFAICT Sep 19 11:28:13 * alterego gives dneary a hug Sep 19 11:28:40 lo dneary Sep 19 11:29:13 Hi all Sep 19 11:29:21 alterego, Thanks Sep 19 11:29:33 Jaffa, Anyway, you saw my email last night, I see Sep 19 11:29:33 :) Sep 19 11:29:46 dneary: Yup; apparently the council are in deliberations. Sep 19 11:30:20 meh, what's an election without scandals Sep 19 11:30:20 :P Sep 19 11:30:35 zactly Sep 19 11:30:42 hahah Sep 19 11:30:45 Jaffa, Basically, I said "Oh, that's really serious, you'll have to be thrown out of the election. More comments below." And then below there was "Only kidding, thius seems like a minor omission. Here's what I suggest you do..." Sep 19 11:30:46 scandals? Sep 19 11:31:11 Jaffa, So, uhm, victim of my own sense of humour. Sep 19 11:32:17 ho-ly shit Sep 19 11:32:54 i switched repository for maemo extras to bora and the install worked Sep 19 11:33:25 it was on chinook >.< Sep 19 11:33:40 :-D Sep 19 11:34:44 oh man i am a hurf mcdurf tonight Sep 19 11:35:29 where are the repositories in maemo saved? my /etc/apt/sources.list is empty Sep 19 11:37:27 dneary: heh Sep 19 11:37:59 anyone know of a good theme for 0s2007he on 770? Sep 19 11:54:38 Sep 19 11:55:30 Hello,I wanted to know if I can install macchanger on my Maemo(to change mac),or is there any other ways? Sep 19 11:55:50 sounds evil :) Sep 19 11:56:46 what package contains sdl-config? Sep 19 11:56:55 tank-man? Sep 19 11:58:18 knightstalker, not many legit reasons to change mac address Sep 19 11:59:00 tank-man,I assume auditing security/security tests are legal Sep 19 12:00:18 i havent done it but it is possible from the forum topics ive seen Sep 19 12:00:58 Okay,I'll search Soon! :P Sep 19 12:01:52 does anyone have a link to the guy who replaced the N900's port with a mini USB one? Sep 19 12:01:55 Jaffa back :) Sep 19 12:03:38 MohammadAG: 'lo. Just about to eat :) Sep 19 12:03:41 why not replace it with the right part? Sep 19 12:03:50 Jaffa heh, kk Sep 19 12:13:47 Hi, i got my n900 running meamo 5 3 days ago Sep 19 12:14:18 I love it, but i wanna know a little bit more before i start pulling apart the meamo platform Sep 19 12:15:08 Can i seperate my personal/professional workflows Sep 19 12:15:29 right now, i have personal and business conversations in SMS/IM mixed with eachother Sep 19 12:16:51 also, on my HTC Touch Pro 2, there was this syncing service "Microsoft MyPhone" which allowed me to sync notes, sms messages, phonenumbers, photos, media, etc etc over HDSPA/G3 to a remote webservice Sep 19 12:17:01 is something similar possible with the Meamo platform Sep 19 12:23:25 is there any good compilation of N900 tweaks in terms of performance and battery life on a single thread or site? thanks for help. Sep 19 12:23:36 an upto date if available. Sep 19 12:24:08 sandstorm, There's a wiki page Sep 19 12:24:15 But honestly the advice there isn't great Sep 19 12:24:21 http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_Power_management Sep 19 12:24:32 But I'm not really able to improve on it Sep 19 12:24:32 It's not user friendly though. Sep 19 12:24:47 I need to polish it and get it nice, but life is getting in the way Sep 19 12:24:50 Basically. Sep 19 12:25:25 Qt Creator is a bit hard to use Sep 19 12:25:32 Don't use screen at max brightness unless you can avoid it. Don't use anything that polls over 3G, don't use skype ever. Sep 19 12:26:05 SpeedEvil: I'll drink to that - skype EATS battery and bandwidth Sep 19 12:26:25 hmm Sep 19 12:26:30 omnomnomnom Sep 19 12:26:40 I didnt even enabled 3g from my gsm provider Sep 19 12:26:46 I knew it drains battery much Sep 19 12:26:57 nah, any kind of active data connection does that Sep 19 12:27:03 its automatically on 2.5g, do you suggest me to enforce it to 2g ? Sep 19 12:27:30 if there is no active data flow, 3g is harmless ? Sep 19 12:27:50 instead of telecomunnications data packets of course. Sep 19 12:27:52 an active, idle 3g connection is hardly measurable Sep 19 12:28:31 lets assume I talk to my friend 10 minutes, will there be difference in battery drainage between 2g and 3g ? Sep 19 12:28:54 sandstorm: not sure about "idle" in 3g, but these connections are always pinging and generally keeping themselves alive, so there will always be usage Sep 19 12:29:13 that's what I was thinking as well Sep 19 12:29:24 so that if I dont need 3g why to enable it. Sep 19 12:29:42 I only use internet via wifi Sep 19 12:29:59 but what about 2.5g and 2g Sep 19 12:30:09 sandstorm: all the connections use a lot of power - wifi too Sep 19 12:30:10 here's something i find interesting Sep 19 12:30:12 jpinx: nah, idle connection (with no data) are really low on battery usage Sep 19 12:30:15 I wonder if I should enforce 2g with the network switcher application Sep 19 12:30:26 I know but I cant avoid wifi at some point Sep 19 12:30:34 I dont use it constantly though Sep 19 12:30:47 on my touch pro 2 running windows mobile 6.5, i could use mobile internet and mobile IM all day long and the battery would be fine Sep 19 12:31:03 with the n900 it's drained before i even get back from whatever it is i'm doing outside Sep 19 12:31:06 * jpinx wonders why someone would want a mobile to be *alwys* online Sep 19 12:31:14 jpinx work Sep 19 12:31:34 or just have a jabber connection always on Sep 19 12:31:50 that too Sep 19 12:32:06 no ideas on 2.5g and 2g ? Sep 19 12:32:40 jpinx is there a way to kill off connections Sep 19 12:33:00 other question is, if I disable some of the 4 desktops, would it make a significant sense in terms of battery? Sep 19 12:33:18 i mean, even if i adjust my own usage behavior, it would be nice if i can get apps acting rude eating power to play nice Sep 19 12:33:27 famicom: sure Sep 19 12:34:10 sandstorm: use the switch to put the screen off, don't wait for the timeout Sep 19 12:34:23 I didnt mean that Sep 19 12:34:32 turn the volume down Sep 19 12:34:34 as default we get 4 desktops on hildon Sep 19 12:34:42 I only use 3 or 2 of them Sep 19 12:34:50 we do? Sep 19 12:35:00 I do at least Sep 19 12:35:02 I have never bothered with those Sep 19 12:35:06 ugh, using applications written by others at times is like having to take care of another parent's kid, "I don't care what your parent allows you to do, in my house (computer) you follow my rules!" Sep 19 12:35:12 who's hildon? Sep 19 12:35:16 it's an app Sep 19 12:35:24 well not an app Sep 19 12:35:31 but a collection of apps for a desktop environment Sep 19 12:35:31 the original hildon Sep 19 12:35:36 not mohammad's Sep 19 12:35:44 peace be upon him Sep 19 12:36:29 tbh there's too much "dressing" and not enough functionality for my taste Sep 19 12:36:48 there isn't even a decent calendar Sep 19 12:36:56 write one Sep 19 12:37:20 the platform is completely open, if you don't like something, fix it Sep 19 12:37:42 I have better things to do ;) so I install a chroot and install what I *really* need there ;) Sep 19 12:37:55 there we go :) Sep 19 12:38:34 what is missing in calendar at your point of view? Sep 19 12:38:39 not everybody can fix things Sep 19 12:38:47 sandstorm: try scrolling one week at a time Sep 19 12:38:48 sandstorm: killing off the desktops should have almost no effect Sep 19 12:38:59 hmm Sep 19 12:39:16 sandstorm: try making a note for a day and seeing it in the monthly view Sep 19 12:39:27 sandstorm: multiple syncable calendars Sep 19 12:39:47 SpeedEvil: allright then, eliminated that, thanks for info Sep 19 12:40:12 sandstorm: what sort of battery life are you seeing? Sep 19 12:40:19 Oh Sep 19 12:40:30 Jartza true, but those people should either learn to fix it, or they should provide clear instructions for those who can fix it what they should fix Sep 19 12:40:32 Also - make sure your AP is power-saving proprly if using wifi Sep 19 12:40:38 * jpinx gets a day with "medium" usage Sep 19 12:40:51 famicom: Providing clear instructions takes time. Sep 19 12:41:08 SpeedEvil: not a too bad one, but if I have the chance, I will try to improve it and the performance. the visuals are not the top priority for me. performance and battery life are. I got like 2 days average of battery life. Sep 19 12:41:11 famicom: And can be disheartening if you do it several times and nothing happens Sep 19 12:41:27 if it doesn't work, it means you need to try something different, and try again Sep 19 12:41:34 famicom: I agree to some point. but personally I also appreciate just input from users, even in form "I just don't like it". Sep 19 12:41:35 2 days is generally fairly good, unless it's idle. Sep 19 12:41:46 I've gotten up to around 8 with it all-but idle. Sep 19 12:41:49 Jartza, this is true :) Sep 19 12:42:00 a noobish question, is the code of Nokia's calendar open source? Sep 19 12:42:14 what i hate is people with a sense of entitlement (I USE YOUR STUFF, THEREFORE YOU MUST TREAT ME LIKE A KING) Sep 19 12:42:18 sandstorm: No. It's an awesome bitr of nokia IP. Sep 19 12:42:36 well - if someone owns up to writing the calendar I can provide polite and constructive critique ;) Sep 19 12:43:03 famicom: well, in traditional world the customer should be the king :) Sep 19 12:43:26 not really, only if you pay for it Sep 19 12:43:28 of course, open source changes things, especially if the customer isn't a paying one Sep 19 12:43:35 but I know some of the guys who put their souls into the software are a bit toucht Sep 19 12:43:38 touchy Sep 19 12:43:42 I have no problem with the customer being king. If he lends me a handmaiden or two, he gets _much_ better service. Sep 19 12:43:47 price = cost of resources + value of time + value of expertise Sep 19 12:43:59 exactly :) Sep 19 12:44:07 Semi-seriously - random RL stuff is taking _way_ too much of my energy. Sep 19 12:44:22 RL stuff ? Sep 19 12:44:27 Real Life. Sep 19 12:44:36 unfortunately joe avderage-user just buys a phone, installs software and doesn't care where the software came from :P Sep 19 12:44:39 It's what happens when you step away from the computer. Sep 19 12:44:48 ah - it's random computer stuff that gets in my way :) Sep 19 12:45:18 like having to find a calender that works ;) Sep 19 12:45:24 and joe average still thinks hes a paying customer Sep 19 12:45:45 and joe average can go fuck himself Sep 19 12:45:50 :O Sep 19 12:46:03 jpe average did pay - he paid nokia Sep 19 12:46:06 It would be awesome if the company would allocate .1% of the purchase price to bugfixes. Sep 19 12:46:09 ~RL Sep 19 12:46:09 well, rl is Real Life (the bad world out there), or known as the Big Blue Box (tm). Conways game using only rational numbers Sep 19 12:46:19 famicom: they sometimes do. and buy an iphone/android :) Sep 19 12:46:24 And there was some way to aggregate consumer wants on bugfixes. Sep 19 12:46:28 customers are like misbehaving children, it's bad behavior and needs to be corrected Sep 19 12:46:58 SpeedEvil there is Sep 19 12:47:18 I don't think it's customers fault that they have application manager in phone they bought Sep 19 12:47:28 I have a girlfriend with an iphone, and the n900 is much better in many ways, but is let down by details Sep 19 12:48:19 probably Sep 19 12:48:21 but... off to cooking :) Sep 19 12:48:29 but if the overall experience is better, it's a better product Sep 19 12:48:31 clear and simple Sep 19 12:48:33 I have never less than 6 apps running at thesame time - and ofen many more Sep 19 12:48:39 I can't see userlist on xchat, anyone experiencing that? Sep 19 12:48:59 * jpinx uses irssi Sep 19 12:49:02 enable it? Sep 19 12:49:02 sandstorm: yes Sep 19 12:49:09 sandstorm: you need tot urn it on. Sep 19 12:49:16 sandstorm: F7 - err, menu-view-userlist Sep 19 12:49:22 SpeedEvil: the problem is, its already turned on :O Sep 19 12:49:27 Top menu -> xchat -> view userlist Sep 19 12:49:29 IIRC Sep 19 12:49:48 sandstorm: then try pulling right border to the center of screen Sep 19 12:50:07 I see a little border Sep 19 12:50:08 on the left Sep 19 12:50:11 when I turn it on Sep 19 12:50:12 it's sized to zero width Sep 19 12:50:13 actually Sep 19 12:50:15 but dunno how to drag it Sep 19 12:50:16 top-window Sep 19 12:50:20 then view Sep 19 12:50:23 then userlist Sep 19 12:50:24 to toggle Sep 19 12:50:52 letme test Sep 19 12:50:59 or change the related numeric value in .xchat/xchat.conf Sep 19 12:51:29 userlist already got the check besides it Sep 19 12:51:33 I see a border on left Sep 19 12:51:35 but cant expand it Sep 19 12:51:37 hmm Sep 19 12:52:00 dont know how it got zeroed in size Sep 19 12:52:08 by itself Sep 19 12:53:04 oh - right - I thought you wanted it off Sep 19 12:53:28 drag the bar on the very right of the screen to expand it Sep 19 12:53:42 finally i could expand it by trying to drag it with stylus Sep 19 12:54:04 gui_pane_left_size = 111; gui_pane_right_size = 494;gui_ulist_hide = 1 gui_ulist_left = 0 gui_ulist_pos = 3 gui_ulist_resizable = 1 gui_ulist_show_hosts = 0 gui_ulist_sort = 0 gui_ulist_style = 0 Sep 19 12:54:12 but it was not so easy letme say Sep 19 12:54:21 in /home/user/.xchat2/xchat.conf Sep 19 12:54:42 oh, you managed to drag it :-) Sep 19 12:54:46 tyvm for that internal info Sep 19 12:55:05 yes it was challenging :p Sep 19 12:56:05 hmm i wonder if i can align it to right Sep 19 12:56:22 (how it got zeroed in size) think it comes with defaults set up like that :-/ Sep 19 12:56:39 ah what a bad default setup Sep 19 12:56:45 (right) I have, there's a setting in prefs Sep 19 12:56:55 uilist pos? Sep 19 12:57:01 prolly Sep 19 12:57:18 letme see the prefs first Sep 19 12:57:27 cya Sep 19 12:57:32 thanks alot Sep 19 12:57:34 see you Sep 19 13:14:38 * MohammadAG lurks in #ubuntu Sep 19 13:14:45 it's hostile towards new users Sep 19 13:15:17 MohammadAG, its not Sep 19 13:15:36 but on busy chans its easy for a new user to get drowned out Sep 19 13:15:51 whenever I am around places like that I look for the little voice and try to respond to them Sep 19 13:15:53 I'm not talking about myself Sep 19 13:16:04 I'm just looking at replies Sep 19 13:16:14 I like the bot though Sep 19 13:16:19 yeah i idle there myself sometimes Sep 19 13:16:44 which bot? I think there's several Sep 19 13:17:02 ubotto Sep 19 13:17:14 * lcuk lurks in #liqbase Sep 19 13:17:42 MohammadAG: it is? :) Sep 19 13:17:53 lots of rtfm? Sep 19 13:18:02 sometimes that's needed Sep 19 13:18:06 ~debian visz Sep 19 13:18:07 * infobot tells visz to RTFM!!!! GAH!!! HELL FIRE AND BRIMSTONE!!!! BURN!!! DIE!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Sep 19 13:18:12 =) Sep 19 13:18:49 :) Sep 19 13:19:17 Upgrading to 10.10, I'm gonna regret this Sep 19 13:19:26 :O Sep 19 13:19:34 the Nokia SDK is nice, the Qt Creator it includes it better than the one in the ubuntu repos Sep 19 13:19:38 if it's not broken... Sep 19 13:19:42 * jpinx passes MohammadAG the root... Sep 19 13:19:55 visz, break it? Sep 19 13:20:03 don't upgrade it Sep 19 13:20:09 MohammadAG: you will, I heard it is a pain on some gfx chipsets/board chipset combinations Sep 19 13:20:36 MohammadAG, then who deals with buntu integration of those components? Sep 19 13:20:37 crap, proprietary NVidia here Sep 19 13:20:38 u Sep 19 13:20:44 lcuk, not sure Sep 19 13:21:04 don't use gnome on my ubuntu netbook remix laptop, but what i've heard the 10.10 makes things worse Sep 19 13:21:15 Maintainer: Ubuntu Developers Sep 19 13:21:18 getting the latest nokia sdk and qt creator onto ubuntu or preferably meego would be good :P Sep 19 13:21:21 lcuk: there's the ubunut-x ml, but it is not for bug reports or user support, it said launchpad is the address for that these days Sep 19 13:21:29 lcuk: that is VERY easy Sep 19 13:21:32 It doesn't have the Symbian emu though Sep 19 13:21:34 for some reason Sep 19 13:21:43 sivang, then follow it up? Sep 19 13:21:49 MohammadAG: you have to get the "mobile" sdk Sep 19 13:21:49 i bet there will be more niggles Sep 19 13:22:05 sivang, i think it's the mobile one Sep 19 13:22:17 has a Maemo emu, but I think the symbian one is for Windows only Sep 19 13:22:21 ah, found the appropriate quote: http://bash.org/?152037 Sep 19 13:22:36 lcuk: I just downloaded and installed, and Maemo and Symbian emu works fine on a non VT netbook Sep 19 13:22:45 lcuk: using 9.04 I think Sep 19 13:22:53 visz, "non VT" means nothing Sep 19 13:23:08 note it is just emulation Sep 19 13:23:15 huh? Sep 19 13:23:15 meh Sep 19 13:23:23 oh Sep 19 13:23:24 MohammadAG, i fiddled with liqflow on my laptop Sep 19 13:23:34 did a flow with 50k particles Sep 19 13:23:44 it was happy and fully flowing at 25k though Sep 19 13:23:50 lcuk, got a deb? Sep 19 13:24:10 libliqbase builds happily as does liqbase playground Sep 19 13:24:14 you had them yourself Sep 19 13:24:17 not on X64 :P Sep 19 13:24:21 :) Sep 19 13:24:25 i am using 32b Sep 19 13:24:36 my tablet was x86 Sep 19 13:24:42 MohammadAG: ah, you are right I confused with windows, Symbian tooling is available only on Windows Sep 19 13:24:45 the x64 stuff was on fellow collaboran spyros computer Sep 19 13:24:54 he can send me a patch if he gets it working :P Sep 19 13:25:07 I'm looking at C++/Qt atm Sep 19 13:25:18 it looks sorta confusing, coming from python :P Sep 19 13:25:33 lo mo Sep 19 13:25:43 I'm looking at sources, are .h files auto generated or something? Sep 19 13:25:53 or do I just c&p all void lines into one Sep 19 13:26:13 back to questions... what is the easiest way to boot n810 from external memory card? is custom initfs the only way? Sep 19 13:26:21 MohammadAG, "ntpd -s" Sep 19 13:26:33 i have to run this after connecting to my network Sep 19 13:26:40 * MohammadAG reads visz's quote Sep 19 13:26:41 MohammadAG: you have any knowledge of C++? Sep 19 13:26:45 to reset clock after removing battery Sep 19 13:26:46 linux is gay, what is ntpd :P Sep 19 13:26:47 jk Sep 19 13:26:52 sivang, not really Sep 19 13:26:52 it doesnt appear to run when the network connects Sep 19 13:26:55 MohammadAG: .h aren't autogenerated, except for some qt stuff iirc Sep 19 13:27:01 this is Qt Sep 19 13:27:03 network time daemon Sep 19 13:27:14 lcuk, I asked for that? Sep 19 13:27:15 and even when I run it from console, it changes time Sep 19 13:27:17 MohammadAG: .h files are like the "interface declerations" Sep 19 13:27:23 but the clock widget in top left Sep 19 13:27:28 doesnt refresh Sep 19 13:27:33 no, i am explaining a bug Sep 19 13:27:37 or set of bugs Sep 19 13:27:38 MohammadAG: if that means anything to you, so to describe the API funcs/methods a certain component supports or accepts, Sep 19 13:27:45 MohammadAG: or "messages" in OOP speak. Sep 19 13:27:51 ntpd should update time and refresh the clock Sep 19 13:27:56 sivang, and the .cpp files are the code itself Sep 19 13:27:59 but it doesnt Sep 19 13:28:01 MohammadAG: exactly Sep 19 13:28:04 MohammadAG: "the implementation" Sep 19 13:28:13 MohammadAG: which should be hidden from the clients ( Sep 19 13:28:14 is there a point in OS where a script can run on network connect? Sep 19 13:28:19 MohammadAG: "users" of the classes Sep 19 13:28:21 and a way of refreshing the clock Sep 19 13:28:23 widget Sep 19 13:28:30 MohammadAG: Python has a similar notion with zope.interface Sep 19 13:28:30 Ahoy thar lcuk Sep 19 13:28:36 \o luke-jr Sep 19 13:28:44 lcuk: maybe clock updates after 60s? Sep 19 13:28:52 lcuk: where be ye pirate hat? Sep 19 13:29:00 MohammadAG: http://wiki.zope.org/Interfaces/FrontPage Sep 19 13:29:07 MohammadAG: twisted has them as well Sep 19 13:29:15 DocScrutinizer51, the first few times I ran ntpd from the console it didnt update Sep 19 13:29:44 lcuk: that's weird. date gave correct time? Sep 19 13:29:57 MohammadAG: the .h/.c/.cc stuff is sort of explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_data_type Sep 19 13:30:04 MohammadAG: ADTs Sep 19 13:30:07 and .pro files are like makefiles for Qt? Sep 19 13:30:08 DocScrutinizer51, yes Sep 19 13:30:12 after ntpd -s Sep 19 13:30:15 the date is correct Sep 19 13:30:18 lcuk: also you want to run hwclock --systohc after adjusting time Sep 19 13:30:22 but to actually get the widget to refresh Sep 19 13:30:26 i still have to open time Sep 19 13:30:29 and save it Sep 19 13:30:31 not exactly Sep 19 13:30:36 no DocScrutinizer51 Sep 19 13:30:42 i want it to happen automatically Sep 19 13:30:47 after net connect Sep 19 13:30:53 iknowiknow Sep 19 13:30:58 idk console foo Sep 19 13:31:11 it took me 6 months to remember ntpd -s ya know Sep 19 13:31:25 lcuk: it should probably run ntpdate in ifup script Sep 19 13:32:22 ntpd isn't exactly tailored to fit usecase of sporadic network connectivity Sep 19 13:32:58 then store a random flag with now date Sep 19 13:33:00 DocScrutinizer51: sure it is Sep 19 13:33:05 and if we have gone back in time to 2009 Sep 19 13:33:11 run it Sep 19 13:33:14 the daemon doesn't cope well with missing connection Sep 19 13:33:17 DocScrutinizer51: in fact, ntpd *blocks* ntpd Sep 19 13:33:18 i dont really care about 5 seconds off Sep 19 13:33:26 but it showing 2009 is a bummer Sep 19 13:33:27 err Sep 19 13:33:30 blocks ntpdate Sep 19 13:33:32 MohammadAG: sort of I think, I think they are used by qmake to create proper makefiles for make Sep 19 13:33:41 DocScrutinizer51: then something is wrong Sep 19 13:33:41 is this void MainWindow::createMenus() like def createMenus() in python? Sep 19 13:33:53 createMenus(self) that is Sep 19 13:33:55 even w/o network, ntpd is supposed to calculate skew and counter it Sep 19 13:34:12 sivang, ah, sorta like a configure script Sep 19 13:34:21 and on a N810 or N900, it only makes sense to have ntpd check the GPS time every so often Sep 19 13:34:35 MohammadAG: similar but the C++ version is using the method in the class wihtout instantiation, while "createMenus(self)" does. Sep 19 13:34:50 MohammadAG: as far as I understand Sep 19 13:35:01 doc, if [ -z "`date|grep 2009`" ] Sep 19 13:35:05 lcuk: anyway enabling automatic adjust in time settings only means it's listening to GSM time msgs Sep 19 13:35:21 hence me talking about ntpd Sep 19 13:35:29 MohammadAG: it is something else if you use this to declare a method Sep 19 13:35:42 MohammadAG: as the syntax for declaring it is quite similar Sep 19 13:35:50 hmm' Sep 19 13:36:20 helpMenu = menuBar()->addMenu(tr("&Help")); Sep 19 13:36:27 helpMenu would be the object name? Sep 19 13:37:03 tr? Sep 19 13:37:05 MohammadAG: yes, if addMenu returns an instance Sep 19 13:37:07 I thought it was _ Sep 19 13:37:18 idk, that's the example I'm looking at Sep 19 13:37:24 MohammadAG, i just found out last night Sep 19 13:37:30 MohammadAG: and menuBar here is supposed produce an instance as well Sep 19 13:37:31 was gonna was what tr was lol Sep 19 13:37:42 adding a textbox onto liqflow lets text input direct on desktop Sep 19 13:37:44 menuBar is that blue arrow thingy Sep 19 13:37:44 lcuk: my ntpd is working just fine as my device is 'always online'. For devices with sporadic connectivity I recommend not using ntpd and instead include ntpdate call to ifup Sep 19 13:37:52 lcuk, nice Sep 19 13:38:07 tr enables translateable strings Sep 19 13:38:12 DocScrutinizer51, i dont care the semantics, i get frustrated seeing clock at 2009 Sep 19 13:38:14 http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq03-swedish-chef.html Sep 19 13:38:18 MohammadAG: ^ Sep 19 13:38:21 the internal battery is dead Sep 19 13:38:25 so needs fixing Sep 19 13:38:29 MohammadAG: about 'tr' Sep 19 13:38:37 lcuk: how can I help? Sep 19 13:38:57 make ntp work and refresh the clock on desktop ! Sep 19 13:39:04 sivang: ooh, THAT tr() Sep 19 13:39:11 DocScrutinizer51: :) Sep 19 13:39:41 even tie it in with the system setting for automatically adjust clock if you feel you have to Sep 19 13:39:45 :D Sep 19 13:39:46 yeah, I was involved in I18n of twinkle Sep 19 13:39:49 * sivang is surprised as the amount of help he has been able to provide so far. Sep 19 13:39:51 :) Sep 19 13:40:32 DocScrutinizer51, loads of people have the clock issue now after popping batteries and sims Sep 19 13:40:48 yeah Sep 19 13:41:43 weird thing is I got the clock-issue even on running down main bat to <3.0V :-O Sep 19 13:42:16 hmm Sep 19 13:42:20 election day today! Sep 19 13:42:45 seems there's a silicon bug stopping main bat supply even from powering RTC, if voltage less 3V Sep 19 13:43:09 FIQ, really Sep 19 13:43:16 wheres the link to the voting page people need to be on? Sep 19 13:43:17 FIQ: Arrrr, rather, talk like ye pirate day Sep 19 13:43:51 luke-jr, yes, it's the same day this year. :p Sep 19 13:44:09 and the Maverick breakage starts Sep 19 13:44:10 (gedit:11462): GdkPixbuf-WARNING **: Cannot open pixbuf loader module file '/usr/lib/gdk-pixbuf-2.0/2.10.0/loaders.cache': No such file or directory Sep 19 13:54:30 lcuk: err nope, scratch my prev statement. I have deinstalled ntpd as it didn't work Sep 19 13:54:44 works for me Sep 19 13:55:44 hmm, how often do you roam, SpeedEvil ? Sep 19 13:56:22 Not very often Sep 19 13:56:35 :nod: Sep 19 14:05:51 lcuk: changing system time with ntpd or ntptime/ntpdate shouldn't make a diff to doing same with date cmd. I can't see why system status clock applet wouldn't update, except if they use an alarmd or other absolute time alarm to trigger refresh, and due to systime adjusted backwards that alarm 'never' triggers Sep 19 14:16:36 Hi Sep 19 14:31:07 anybody recalls what's the special tweaks of proto devices' firmware? What, if anything, will cease to work when flashing a 'normal' PR1.2 image to a prototype? Sep 19 14:32:29 huh Sep 19 14:32:49 how prototypey? Sep 19 14:33:34 lcuk: F4 Sep 19 14:33:56 whatever that means Sep 19 14:34:06 hoe do i find out which variants i have ? Sep 19 14:34:59 dunno Sep 19 14:35:09 cal? Sep 19 14:35:51 there might be a sticker but i cant remember lol Sep 19 14:37:03 osso-product-info OSSO_PRODUCT_HARDWARE='RX-51' ? Sep 19 14:37:41 anyway, what's been the major diffs of any proto to MP? Sep 19 14:37:42 DocScrutinizer51, the device i am on now doesnt say that Sep 19 14:41:29 env Sep 19 14:41:33 DocScrutinizer51, afaik the flashing images differ Sep 19 14:41:53 maverick beta 1 is better than lucid xD Sep 19 14:42:02 at least the thermal sensors work now Sep 19 14:42:22 MohammadAG: it's still not final ;) Sep 19 15:03:43 oh wow, ovi music seems to finally offer me drm-free without complaining my N900 isn't an N-series device Sep 19 15:03:59 maybe I should attempt to create an account again Sep 19 15:04:11 what's that rapid content widgets creation approach Nokia has ? in which you can create apps for your blog or so through a web interface Sep 19 15:04:15 anybody remembers? Sep 19 15:06:10 is that what web runtime does? Sep 19 15:08:30 ShadowJK: it uses WRT, but there was a web interface from somewhere to create the widgets apps Sep 19 15:08:36 (AFAIK) Sep 19 15:17:02 Jaffa: dne.. not here, pong Sep 19 15:17:19 on a bus, but i have my n900 :) Sep 19 15:20:04 On a train o/ Sep 19 15:20:04 w00t: See various emails. You're not out (yet ;-)) Sep 19 15:21:22 yeah, kathy informed me.. cant easily get them on n900 coz of the mail client i use (sup) but i shall read asap once i get to the apartment im staying Sep 19 15:22:27 ty :) Sep 19 15:23:12 i vote w00t be disqualified for being on a bus Sep 19 15:23:13 :P Sep 19 15:23:25 lol Sep 19 15:31:08 SD69 really pisses me off. Sep 19 15:41:32 he's a lawyer, he's supposed to be nitpicky Sep 19 16:13:34 Stskeeps: Is he? Not just a git, then? Sep 19 16:15:14 professional git Sep 19 16:18:05 w00t: whereabouts are you staying? ;) Sep 19 16:38:18 frals: er.. good question Sep 19 16:38:30 * w00t celebrates in the small victory of finally finding the apartment and managing to get internet Sep 19 16:38:58 haha Sep 19 16:42:49 * RST38h swears, disabling every single multitouch/tap feature of his new shining Synaptics touchpad. Sep 19 16:43:30 RST38h, circular scrolling! Sep 19 16:43:37 Whoever came up with an idea that multitouch is somehow "natural" never had to use it himself Sep 19 16:43:41 MNZ: Gone! Sep 19 16:43:59 but it's really nice :/ Sep 19 16:44:05 Screw it. Sep 19 16:53:56 well Sep 19 16:54:12 backing up the kernel by dd'ing /dev/mtd3 does NOT work Sep 19 16:54:50 device won't boot, but what's interesting is, taking out the battery with the USB connected keeps it on Sep 19 16:56:09 still trying to unbrick your device? Sep 19 16:57:09 it's not bricked :P Sep 19 16:58:21 ah ok Sep 19 16:58:33 * RST38h vaguely remembers someone bricking his device latley Sep 19 17:10:29 hrw|gone, i like your writeup about designing in qt Sep 19 17:10:30 http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2010/09/17/is-designing-ui-simple-with-qt/ Sep 19 17:23:46 * Noobmonk3y waves Sep 19 17:23:55 lcuk, hows the head/ear? Sep 19 17:24:29 * Noobmonk3y has been a busy boy today - could do with a million people to double check my ramblings :) - http://www.greg-roberts.com/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=7&Itemid=1 Sep 19 17:29:38 Noobmonk3y, ear is ok, i can hear again now :) Sep 19 17:29:51 just got back from walk round country park Sep 19 17:30:01 jake was jumping in tonnes of muddy puddles Sep 19 17:30:26 w000p! Sep 19 17:30:31 sounds good fun!! Sep 19 17:39:47 hii guys Sep 19 17:40:49 hi hi Sep 19 17:42:19 hey Hey! Sep 19 17:42:26 having a good wkend Venemo ? Sep 19 17:42:38 Noobmonk3y: yeah :) Sep 19 17:42:46 :) Sep 19 17:43:33 hey Venemo \o Sep 19 17:43:44 Noobmonk3y: I was working on a website for my father from Friday to Saturday without having any sleep... and it is still not complete Sep 19 17:44:23 haha i know that feeling spent 5+ hours on a blog today - also designing another website and updating healthcheck! so much for a quiet sunday! Sep 19 17:44:30 Noobmonk3y, that page is awesome Sep 19 17:44:32 :) Sep 19 17:44:46 but it needs to show the photos of it in expected positions as it is put in those positions :P Sep 19 17:45:20 Do you guys know of a very lightweight non-resource-hungry Linux distro + desktop environment that I can put on my grandma's Pentium I computer? Sep 19 17:45:29 Cheers lcuk! Sep 19 17:45:45 yeah, i know - lol lcuk - need to do new Healthcheck screenshots this week i feel Sep 19 17:45:55 You're pretty much out of luck, because ooo or firefox/chrome/whatever is going to want 10X more memory than what the Pentium machine has Sep 19 17:46:01 Venemo, pretty sure ubuntu would work, not sure on which version Sep 19 17:46:20 Shadow, not sure on that, the pentium should be able to handle the basics Sep 19 17:46:31 worth a try anyway Sep 19 17:46:45 Noobmonk3y: I was first thinking of Fedora (my favourite), but it requires i686 :D Sep 19 17:46:48 Well just consider that in all likelyhood it has less ram than a 770 :) Sep 19 17:46:54 lol Sep 19 17:47:18 ShadowJK: yes! 16 MB RAM if I recall correctly, plus a 150 MHz processor Sep 19 17:47:42 Yeah, give up :) Sep 19 17:48:09 it ran Windows 95, but something happened to the machine... I will need to look at it next week when I go home :P Sep 19 17:48:11 Even netscape 3 back in the days was a hog on my P133 32M ram :) Sep 19 17:48:33 she doesn't have an internet connection, so this is not an issue Sep 19 17:48:54 Venmo, probably cheaper on your time do buy her a 50 second hand pc with 5* the power lol Sep 19 17:49:20 I have 7 spare dell optiplex's at the moment :P hehe - but i have a feeling you aint local to me lol! Sep 19 17:50:50 Noobmonk3y: well, unfortunately no. I live in Budapest Sep 19 17:51:15 ahhhh - will be in greece on sunday next week, still a bit to far away to pop buy Sep 19 17:51:18 by* Sep 19 17:53:33 Noobmonk3y: do you mean £ by Ł ? Sep 19 17:54:06 lol i meant popping by, so i could drop it off, you can have one for free, but shipping would cost me 50+ most likely! lol Sep 19 17:54:31 + i'm a lazy bugger, and i hate going to the post office lol Sep 19 17:55:39 Noobmonk3y: oh, that's not what I meant Sep 19 17:55:48 oh lol Sep 19 17:56:09 Noobmonk3y: I just asked whether you meant british pounds? (are you Brittish?) Sep 19 17:56:10 i posted the symbol (As is pounds) -did it display oddly on your screen? Sep 19 17:56:15 yes, i am :) Sep 19 17:56:16 ahhh gotcha Sep 19 17:57:04 Noobmonk3y: I thought the symbol is £ Sep 19 17:57:50 it is :) Sep 19 17:59:43 Noobmonk3y, the further down the page I go, the more I likey Sep 19 17:59:47 http://www.greg-roberts.com/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=7&Itemid=1 Sep 19 18:01:18 hehehe cheers lcuk! its not all there, but that should give people a) a bit of an insight in terminal commands, and b) some N900 knowledge... Will add useful links to each section and finish the rest. Tis basically gonna be my findings of all of the CAT'ing of terminal i have done lol! Sep 19 18:01:43 (i posted most of that blog from the n900 - but gave up after thumb and eye ache!) Sep 19 18:01:52 good, you are presenting things well Sep 19 18:02:09 and healthcheck is a great tool for people to investigate the device Sep 19 18:02:43 :) :) - the most feedback from healthcheck i've actually had is people looking at the code and learning about the n900 - and unexpected benefit :) Sep 19 18:03:41 its kinda odd, as i know i don't code too well, but i love the investigation part - what is odd, is really how badly documented some of the n900 parts are :| - ie, when i cat something, i'd expect a documented list of what something does either from nokia, manufacturer or supplier, in most cases that is not true (like boot_reason) for example Sep 19 18:04:06 Noobmonk3y: why do you think you don't code well? Sep 19 18:04:50 Venemo, As it ignores all good coding practice to get something to work, there are also errors in it, mainly affecting the tools i used to get information. But it works i suppose :P Sep 19 18:04:59 not as messy as it used to be ;) Sep 19 18:05:12 sounds familiar :) Sep 19 18:05:15 Noobmonk3y: well, I know the feeling Sep 19 18:05:49 Noobmonk3y: for Sticky Notes, I had to go for several hacks to get things working as I want them to work Sep 19 18:06:16 Noobmonk3y: because of the number of these, many people can question my ability to create sane code! Sep 19 18:06:43 hahaha :) Sep 19 18:07:01 I think i flit between things to quick to learn standards :P - so getting something working is good enough for me :) Sep 19 18:07:55 Noobmonk3y: hm, your HDR pictures are amazing Sep 19 18:08:19 for others to check out: http://www.greg-roberts.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=11 Sep 19 18:08:39 awww cheers!!! :) - i love HDR and photo techniques, all of those have been shot on a 6mp EOS 300D :) hehe, my missues has a 400D (And cross fingers, after my 30th in 2 weeks i may have a better one!) lol Sep 19 18:08:59 Noobmonk3y: btw, HDR = "High Dynamic Range", you could change it in the menu (which says "High Defined Range") Sep 19 18:09:10 http://www.greg-roberts.com/images/Gallery/HDR/webphdr_001.jpg - that was my first ever attempt Venemo :) - came out pretty good Sep 19 18:09:21 ooo v good point - it kinda is both though lol Sep 19 18:09:26 very nice Sep 19 18:09:31 depending how pedantic people feel lol Sep 19 18:09:54 i did that water tanker one, after reading someones tweet ! hehe - so went out, took the camera, 30 mins later that appeared, got hooked! Sep 19 18:10:05 :) Sep 19 18:11:23 chadi, bit.ly/d08bo0 :) Sep 19 18:11:35 Chadi http://bit.ly/d08bo0 even Sep 19 18:12:14 lcuk: nice to hear Sep 19 18:13:05 Noobmonk3y, Sep 19 18:13:10 MohammadAG51, Sep 19 18:13:11 Noobmonk3y: sweet :) Sep 19 18:13:18 cheers chadi :) Sep 19 18:13:21 save screen estate Sep 19 18:13:30 MohammadAG51, Speak english Sep 19 18:13:54 Noobmonk3y, today's pirate day Sep 19 18:14:00 ooooooooooo yarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Sep 19 18:14:05 isnt every day pirate day? Sep 19 18:14:25 nar Sep 19 18:14:34 ye don't the piirate code Sep 19 18:14:50 on a more serious note Sep 19 18:14:55 Ubuntu 10.10 ftw Sep 19 18:15:04 this is the least crappy beta out of canonical Sep 19 18:15:13 can't wait to test multitouch Sep 19 18:15:44 ooo cool! Sep 19 18:15:49 Noobmonk3y, Sep 19 18:15:53 in healthcheck Sep 19 18:16:03 you're using a combobox and a button for LED tests Sep 19 18:16:14 why not just use a combobox? Sep 19 18:16:58 cos erm, didnt know you could lol Sep 19 18:17:00 hrw|gone, using it for a specific purpose and actually managing to get a good looking app out the other end is important for the global process - the qt stuff is coming along nicely Sep 19 18:18:46 Noobmonk3y, sec Sep 19 19:07:16 Hello from a ferry. Sep 19 19:08:18 what country are you in? :P Sep 19 19:08:47 Well. We're about to depart Scotland Sep 19 19:08:59 And we'll dock in Northern Ireland Sep 19 19:09:26 Technically it's all the United Kingdom, which is rather boring... Sep 19 19:09:43 But scotland has its own domestic parliament :) Sep 19 19:09:53 Dunno about Northern Ireland Sep 19 19:10:40 So far this free wifi seems to work. There's also a "movie" wifi network. I'll have to sign off to try it. Sep 19 19:11:43 timeless_stenali: There's a Northern Ireland Assembly Sep 19 19:12:11 We're moving Sep 19 19:12:31 Oh, "stela line is now on Twitter and Facebook" whatever those are :) Sep 19 19:14:34 hrw|gone: ping Sep 19 19:14:42 hello everyone :) Sep 19 19:15:03 Hi wazd Sep 19 19:15:11 * timeless_stenali waves from some sea Sep 19 19:15:28 Northern Irish Sea ? Sep 19 19:16:24 * timeless_stenali decides to test bandwidth / latency by trying a SIP call Sep 19 19:19:17 One way (inbound audio) sip w/ signaling works :o Sep 19 19:27:52 They're showing "the blind side". I'm going to explore... Bye Sep 19 19:32:34 Worst weekend ever Sep 19 19:32:46 New N900 here Monday Sep 19 19:32:51 Oooh Sep 19 19:33:01 what happened to the old one? Sep 19 19:33:07 Bad NAND or eMMC Sep 19 19:33:21 identified by what symptom? Sep 19 19:33:24 Didn't manage to get to the point where I felt like fighting with MeeGo to check for bad blocks. Sep 19 19:33:34 By it dying while booting at the Nokia logo Sep 19 19:33:44 and booting fine from MeeGo on the MicroSD. Sep 19 19:33:51 interesting Sep 19 19:34:01 GAN900: hrm, usually not good Sep 19 19:34:08 Indeed not Sep 19 19:34:26 Somehow it expired itself to coincide perfectly with the end of the loan period Sep 19 19:34:30 So back to Finland it goes. Sep 19 19:34:57 GAN900: Own bought one, then? Sep 19 19:35:03 Yeah Sep 19 19:35:10 I really want a second N900 :( Sep 19 19:35:10 New or second hand? Sep 19 19:35:11 $399 from Amazon Sep 19 19:35:13 New Sep 19 19:35:27 Friend is going to pay me for my DDP one that he's been using since I got it. Sep 19 19:35:31 GAN900: well, that worked our kind of well, then Sep 19 19:35:38 I've just got a new work contract, so I might be able to buy a new gadget with the pay :) Sep 19 19:35:52 After extensive playing with an N8 (nearly typed R8, I wish!); I've concluded Maemo's still the best looking, most flexible and most integrated (except Ovi) phone for me at the moment. Sep 19 19:36:15 Symbian just has too much baggage. Sep 19 19:36:28 I really hope the new execs at Nokia manage to push things in good directions. Sep 19 19:36:31 Jaffa: I must ask, is S^3 really less shit than prior symbian offerings? :) Sep 19 19:36:38 w00t: It is less shit. Sep 19 19:36:43 wow Sep 19 19:36:45 that's no mean feat Sep 19 19:36:45 I was tempted into getting an N8 just for cross device development, as I'd obviously like to target new Symbian handsets too, but I think I might wait for Symbian 4 Sep 19 19:36:59 alturiak: sounds like a good plan. Sep 19 19:37:15 It is less shit, but only because they've spent more than five minutes adding touch functionality. Sep 19 19:37:24 w00t: The physical design of the hardware is orders of magntitude better looking than the N900 Sep 19 19:37:42 yes, the devices look sexy, at least from what i've seen on videos/etc Sep 19 19:37:43 Gives me high hopes for the Harmattan device. Sep 19 19:37:46 (I haven't seen one) Sep 19 19:38:00 The bit on Engadget about hardware setting software requirements is just unreal Sep 19 19:38:02 if unsurprising Sep 19 19:38:05 I like the common theme that seems to run through the hardware Sep 19 19:38:08 (design) Sep 19 19:38:09 Yeah, doest look quite sexsy. Sep 19 19:38:28 Minus that goddamn capacitive screen. Sep 19 19:38:35 The E7 is a *beast* though; hopefully the Harmattan device won't be anywhere near that big Sep 19 19:38:49 am I the only person that likes big phones? Sep 19 19:38:49 :P Sep 19 19:38:59 I dunno, I like the E7 design, maybe 1/2 an inch smaller though Sep 19 19:39:10 i'd love an E7 Sep 19 19:39:12 w00t: well, you probably have something to make up for, without a big phone in your pocket.. Sep 19 19:39:15 * Stskeeps runs Sep 19 19:39:18 hmm Sep 19 19:39:20 I liked the keynote, "It's _biiiiig_" Sep 19 19:39:23 Stskeeps: oh you Sep 19 19:39:26 w00t: The E7 is a *very* big phone Sep 19 19:39:26 looks like failing usb port have failed on my n900 Sep 19 19:39:27 I don't like the design of the new nokias, feels a bit "boring" Sep 19 19:39:40 or it's just hmm, something else Sep 19 19:39:44 Trizt: I wasn't impressed by the photos until I saw them in the flesh Sep 19 19:39:50 Trizt: aye. Sep 19 19:39:58 The N97 had more much interesting styling. Sep 19 19:40:10 Too retro & boring for me. Sep 19 19:40:11 shame about the hardware Sep 19 19:40:34 I felt the same about the N810, the pictures don't do it justice. When I got my N810, I thought "Wow, this is a really sexy device" Sep 19 19:40:38 * RST38h smirks at the mention of n97 Sep 19 19:40:50 that one was a disaster Sep 19 19:40:51 Though, the N900 was kind of opposite, the pictures make it look prettier than it actually is in person :) Sep 19 19:41:04 Though I do remember thinking, "Wow, this is a bit smaller than I imagined". Sep 19 19:41:08 n900 is a 5800 on steroids Sep 19 19:41:14 Way too much plastic. Sep 19 19:41:18 i.e. not pretty but practical Sep 19 19:41:19 And been hit by an ugly stick. Sep 19 19:41:21 Repeatedly. Sep 19 19:41:38 I wish the N900 could have been thinner, otherwise I like it Sep 19 19:41:39 Well, it wasn't that bad to start with; but looks really dated and plasticky now Sep 19 19:41:42 I just think the front could be a little nicer :) Sep 19 19:41:53 At least it feels good to hold. Sep 19 19:42:00 Yeah, that it does. Sep 19 19:42:11 I dunno if I can deal with the tilted touchscreen. Sep 19 19:42:13 And handy in the case of needing a brick to throw through a window for a bit of burglarising. Sep 19 19:42:15 iPhone is exactly the same size but thinner. It is pain to hold. Sep 19 19:42:23 Jaffa: hahah Sep 19 19:42:30 Does not feel substantial, as you would expect phone receiver to be Sep 19 19:42:30 You really have to have a case for the iPhone Sep 19 19:42:33 GAN900: why? Sep 19 19:42:34 of course I wish it had a multi core cpu and compass and gyro, built in tv receiver, video.... Sep 19 19:42:39 Which is what makes it genius. Sep 19 19:42:47 I have sent my n900 through a window, once Sep 19 19:42:51 alterego: dunno, just looks really problematic for me. Sep 19 19:42:52 Trizt: I'd settle for a teleport; keep the rest. Sep 19 19:42:56 w00t: Really?! Sep 19 19:42:59 yes Sep 19 19:43:01 I fell Sep 19 19:43:05 it went flying Sep 19 19:43:09 Jaffa; yeah, that had been the ultimate feature Sep 19 19:43:17 iPhone looks really good in specs and pictures, but you still make money on cases. Sep 19 19:43:17 GAN900: I kind of like the idea, but I'll have to use one before I can say I like it or not practically. Sep 19 19:43:21 slight chip in the frame, but hardly noticable Sep 19 19:43:30 no other damage Sep 19 19:43:34 GAN900: so you made piece with your iphone at last? Sep 19 19:43:44 s/piece/peace Sep 19 19:43:44 RST38h: I want to burn it to death. Sep 19 19:43:52 hm Sep 19 19:43:54 RST38h: and don't attribute ownership to me. Sep 19 19:44:07 hmm Sep 19 19:44:15 Heh Sep 19 19:44:23 You really found the iPhone that bad>? Sep 19 19:44:31 anyone managed to run maemo on an iphone? Sep 19 19:44:33 Can't stand it Sep 19 19:44:43 Interesting. Sep 19 19:44:50 iOS is boring to use, the screen sucks, the touchscreen sucks, the formfactor is irritating. Sep 19 19:44:50 GAN900, what's difference between a production and a preproduction device Sep 19 19:44:55 N900 Sep 19 19:45:01 Things are always more complicated than they need to be. Sep 19 19:45:04 I tried an iPhone (again) a few months ago, I was pretty underwhelmed really Sep 19 19:45:08 MohammadAG51: no N900 badge. Sep 19 19:45:14 i remember you metnioned something about loaders being different Sep 19 19:45:16 I've got a couple of friends that have them, one is a mobile dev, god they're such massive fan boys, touting how great it is. Sep 19 19:45:17 MohammadAG51: Says property of Nokia on the inside. Sep 19 19:45:39 MohammadAG51: the HW ID isn't listed in the COMBINED FIASCO images. Sep 19 19:45:41 GAN900, so only the loader is different? Sep 19 19:45:42 I just want to shout at them, but I refrain and just remember what I can do on my older, but far more flexible N900 Sep 19 19:46:01 MMohammad: "N900" on the outside, yellow badge on the inside, boot loader not compatible with the rootfs images Sep 19 19:46:07 alterego: I had a local journalist try to tell me Apple invented multitasking when he got his iPhone 4. Sep 19 19:46:18 GAN900: hahahah Sep 19 19:46:19 Mohammad: I.e. you have to flash it with specially prepared firmware Sep 19 19:46:21 alterego, oh so we're similar, except I don't refrain Sep 19 19:46:26 Like they invent everything :/ Sep 19 19:46:30 RST38h: changing HW id to flash didn't seem to affect anything. Sep 19 19:46:55 RST38h, I assume that's not publically available? Sep 19 19:47:02 GAN900: you can force flash it I believe, but it might be a bit dangerous. Sep 19 19:47:05 The one thing that's really lightyears ahead of everybody else on Maemo devices is book reading. Sep 19 19:47:10 what's the HW revision in flasher? Sep 19 19:47:13 Mohammad: It is not, but a letter to dneary or qgil usually solves the problem Sep 19 19:47:20 alterego: worked fine on my proto for 3 or 4 times Sep 19 19:47:29 GAN900: one app, many books? As oppose to 4x apps per book? :) Sep 19 19:47:34 Until my NAND/eMMC died last week, that is, but dunno if that's related. :D Sep 19 19:47:41 alterego: one USABLE app Sep 19 19:47:44 Heh Sep 19 19:47:46 Combined with a USABLE screen Sep 19 19:47:48 GAN900: They did. Sep 19 19:47:54 With "System 6" in 1988. Sep 19 19:48:06 Please ignore all the Unices before that. Sep 19 19:48:08 GAN900: what did you honestly think about the display quality of the screen? Colours and such? Sep 19 19:48:15 derf: who did what? Sep 19 19:48:20 Apple. Sep 19 19:48:26 alterego: N900 or iPhone? Sep 19 19:48:30 iPhone Sep 19 19:48:36 The iPhone 4 screen is gorgeous. Sep 19 19:48:41 Absolutely jaw dropping Sep 19 19:49:08 but it's combined with a UI designed for a screen with half the resolution, so it's mostly useless. Sep 19 19:49:12 I should probably pay more attention next time I see them, and they have it on the table infront of them like all iPhoneys do. Sep 19 19:49:20 iPhone 1G's screen is ugly Sep 19 19:49:23 3G is meh Sep 19 19:49:35 3GS is acceptable color and brightness wise but shit resolution. Sep 19 19:49:43 but 4G! 4G Sep 19 19:50:13 4G is God! Sep 19 19:50:34 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Sep 19 19:50:36 derf: oh, multitasking. Yeah, true, but the guy's a Windows user and was referring to the modern mobile space Sep 19 19:50:49 RST38h: The 4's screen is god. Sep 19 19:50:50 Maverick uses ubuntu software center as the deb handler Sep 19 19:50:55 I wish Nokia would order some of those. Sep 19 19:50:57 i liked seeing file contents grr Sep 19 19:51:20 what about the "CBD" stuff nokia announced Sep 19 19:51:54 MohammadAG51: if the resolution is shit, who cares" Sep 19 19:53:36 * RST38h silently prays to the iPhone 4G scren Sep 19 19:53:49 RST38h: good man. Sep 19 19:53:57 GAN900, hm, indeed Sep 19 19:54:18 I want Retina on N9 Sep 19 19:54:55 I heard that Catorize messes up with battery life, is that true? Sep 19 19:57:04 sandstorm: no. Sep 19 19:58:06 actually, hildon-desktop does WHEN catorize is installed Sep 19 19:58:25 apparently catorize is only 1 page of icon Sep 19 19:58:48 hildon-desktop thinks it reached the end, so it bounces the page, then it thinks it reached the top and bounces it again Sep 19 19:58:58 so it ends up bouncing the page so fast, you can't notice it, but the CPU does Sep 19 19:59:35 Hildon Desktop is such a half-assed mess. Sep 19 20:00:59 where can I find unzip for Maemo? Sep 19 20:01:09 apt-get install unzip Sep 19 20:01:12 so Catorize messes up hildon, it drains battery quicker. Sep 19 20:01:27 GAN900, nah, the new version fixes it, the way Nokia ships packages sucks Sep 19 20:01:36 MohammadAG, doesn't work Sep 19 20:01:40 MohammadAG, what repo is it in? Sep 19 20:02:00 enable devel Sep 19 20:02:23 that's the only way to get unzip? Sep 19 20:02:28 testing Sep 19 20:02:45 mentioning the warning about devel is probably a better way to say that, but since I don't promote shit now, I don't Sep 19 20:02:48 just click a fremantle armel link here: http://maemo.org/packages/view/unzip/ Sep 19 20:02:56 sandstorm, http://81.216.215.120/maemo/hildon-desktop_2.2.138-1+0m5_armel.deb Sep 19 20:03:27 I will miss Catorize since flat style sucks too much. Sep 19 20:04:04 mece, thanks Sep 19 20:04:07 MohammadAG: is that your version of hildon or is it the new versions of the original one ? Sep 19 20:04:25 sandstorm, it's both Sep 19 20:04:42 it's MohammadAG's new version of the original one Sep 19 20:04:43 I mean is that custom or the original :) Sep 19 20:04:49 ahh I see Sep 19 20:04:56 amIright? Sep 19 20:05:20 sandstorm, it's not mine Sep 19 20:05:52 mine lives in the ssu Sep 19 20:06:23 since I am a newbie in this stuff, if I install this newer hildon, may I be updating without problems to a new PR and would it be a clean update removing all the remnants back ? Sep 19 20:06:35 Ignoring the text of the election rules when they've been quoted at you twice is always fun. Sep 19 20:06:49 technically, it's the same hildon Sep 19 20:07:08 GAN900, you don't seem to like being in the council Sep 19 20:07:54 MohammadAG: burnt out. Tired of people interpreting things to their liking. Sep 19 20:09:07 !ssu Sep 19 20:09:11 I only heard about the council when the chromium thingy happened Sep 19 20:09:15 ~ssu Sep 19 20:09:16 from memory, ssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/SSU Sep 19 20:09:25 what was done before (honest question, not trolling) Sep 19 20:09:27 hm, application manager keeps saying the unzip package is incompatible Sep 19 20:09:31 #maemo-ssu for my SSU Sep 19 20:09:44 it's not _S_ SU at the moment Sep 19 20:09:49 dpkg -i ftw Sep 19 20:09:53 HAM sucks Sep 19 20:10:03 MohammadAG: facilitation stuff Sep 19 20:10:04 mostly Sep 19 20:10:25 We handed out sponsorship for the 2009 Maemo Summit Sep 19 20:10:29 Um, other stuff. Sep 19 20:10:53 Helped get maemo.org ready for the Fremantle release Sep 19 20:11:04 Oversaw the ITt to Talk transition Sep 19 20:11:16 Lots of stuff, in summary. Sep 19 20:12:27 Wasn't here pre-Fremantle Sep 19 20:12:46 always that the N8x0 and 770 ran proprietary shit Sep 19 20:13:04 Android wasn't there, iOS is meh, so I was stuck with Symbian Sep 19 20:13:24 then came the N900, read about Maemo, it was linux, so I did a facepalm and sold my N97 Sep 19 20:13:46 night folks, I need to catch some sleep Sep 19 20:13:47 MohammadAG: so in your opinion, N8x0 and 770 runs properitary shit, but N900 doesn't? Sep 19 20:14:07 Venemo, I thought it was some Java based OS Sep 19 20:14:12 Venemo, they all do Sep 19 20:14:25 MohammadAG :) Sep 19 20:14:30 I wonder how many blobs MeeGo on the N900 has Sep 19 20:15:17 MohammadAG: bme and sgx? Sep 19 20:15:29 plus wifi (I think, I might be totally wrong) Sep 19 20:15:41 i thought wifi was open Sep 19 20:15:47 you're probably right Sep 19 20:16:15 There's a blob, though. Sep 19 20:20:38 hi Sep 19 20:20:52 Hi TiagoTiago Sep 19 20:22:09 could someone take a look at the script at http://www.gdhpress.com.br/blog/script-vivo-zap/ and tell me if it's safe to run it on my N900 please? Sep 19 20:22:54 wazd: pong Sep 19 20:24:19 Won't work at all TiagoTiago Sep 19 20:24:29 This is not kde. Sep 19 20:26:27 :( Sep 19 20:26:41 What's it supposed to do Sep 19 20:27:51 setup tethering via DUN with bluetooth, to use another cell phone as a modem Sep 19 20:30:05 more specificly, it sets things to use one of the carriers from here Sep 19 20:32:34 ah Sep 19 20:35:04 is it possible to hibernate my N900 ? Sep 19 20:36:16 jacktheripper, you mean make it a next of twigs and leaves inside a cave and let it sleep for winter? Sep 19 20:36:24 if so, sure - you jsut need a handy cave Sep 19 20:36:39 does the kernel support USB twigs ? Sep 19 20:37:15 is there a "wvdial" for the N900? Sep 19 20:37:42 jacktheripper, theres been some hacking on stuff I think, you will have to search the forums Sep 19 20:38:49 wazd: catch me during my working day - 9-18 europe/warsaw timezone (22:36 now) Sep 19 20:38:52 bye Sep 19 20:41:28 Speed£ it has instructions about installing that wvdial thing in many distros uncluding debian derivatives Sep 19 20:41:32 erm Sep 19 20:41:40 MohammadAG51: http://81.216.215.120/maemo/hildon-desktop_2.2.138-1+0m5_armel.deb -- you know it messes up apt-get dependencies so you can't install anything after that? I apt-get remove'd the generic-pr metapackage and it's fine since Sep 19 20:42:15 SpeedEvil * Sep 19 20:42:23 DocScrutinizer, it's not mine anyways Sep 19 20:42:28 it shouldn't though Sep 19 20:42:32 same number Sep 19 20:43:37 hi Sep 19 20:45:46 SpeedEvil? Sep 19 20:46:25 I don't know. Sep 19 20:46:29 Sorry. Sep 19 20:47:03 you can't tell by the commands in that script if it will harm my N900? Sep 19 20:48:20 what script Sep 19 20:49:05 TiagoTiago: what in "Won't work at all TiagoTiago, This is not kde." was so hard to understand? Sep 19 20:49:09 could someone take a look at the script at http://www.gdhpress.com.br/blog/script-vivo-zap/ and tell me if it's safe to run it on my N900 please? Sep 19 20:49:46 it has instructions for debian derivades(sp?) Sep 19 20:50:04 TiagoTiago: It is safe. It will not work. Sep 19 20:50:08 TiagoTiago: that page is not in english Sep 19 20:50:59 i know, but i didn't thought the comments etc would matter to read the commands in the script Sep 19 20:51:44 when reading the* Sep 19 20:58:05 TiagoTiago: I don't see the use of this script at all. There's other methods on maemo to set up PAN, and also other methods to create a GPRS connection. wvdial seems highly useless on N900 anyway, at least until we get hostmode working Sep 19 21:01:14 I don't think the N73 can do bluetooth PAN Sep 19 21:29:12 oh man im trying to install tear on my 770 with os2007he, but every time i apt-get packages the file explorer wont open afterwards and the os crashes and will not boot back up Sep 19 21:29:44 out of space Sep 19 21:30:06 wow really? the internal flash is that small? Sep 19 21:30:33 koffeekan: a possible error, you need to check it Sep 19 21:30:51 how do i check it if the thing wont boot? Sep 19 21:32:15 so i guess installing to mmc would take care of this issue ? Sep 19 21:33:20 is there a ertain memory card that would work the best for installing the os to? Sep 19 21:33:21 test it, you can look if the file explorer shows the free space, i don't know where it is on the 770 Sep 19 21:33:56 or if terminal -> df -h works Sep 19 21:34:07 i cant open file explorer because it dosent even boot up at all, nokia screen, tries to boot, black flash, nokia screen, etc Sep 19 21:34:50 w/e im just going to get a fatty 2gig card and install the os to it Sep 19 22:09:41 hey Sep 19 22:09:53 when will pr 1.3 be available? Sep 19 22:10:50 ~pr1.3 Sep 19 22:10:51 pr1.3 is, like, a ban'able subject now..... Sep 19 22:10:59 oh Sep 19 22:11:43 thats bad news Sep 19 22:12:31 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=48901 Sep 19 22:15:41 does underclocking to 250Mhz improve battery duration? Sep 19 22:16:37 only in very specific workloads Sep 19 22:16:51 Tuco_maria: also, 250 MHz can cause problems Sep 19 22:17:29 so, should i stick with the stock clock speed of 600 Mhz? Sep 19 22:17:39 500 is better Sep 19 22:17:44 600 is overclocked Sep 19 22:17:47 it won't last a year at 600 Sep 19 22:17:59 why not just let cpufreq/Linux handle it dynamically? Sep 19 22:18:02 keep in mind that there isn't one 'stock' clock speed. by default it scales over a range of clock speeds Sep 19 22:18:26 I run Gentoo and my N900 uses 600 MHz less than 10% of the time Sep 19 22:18:43 won't last a year at 600mhz? wow.. Sep 19 22:19:08 if it's running constantly at 600MHz 24/7 Sep 19 22:19:13 a large majortiy fo the time, it's idle Sep 19 22:19:39 very interesting news for me, I'd expected more Sep 19 22:20:19 can you run gentoo on n900 with the phone capabilities? Sep 19 22:21:20 the motorola milestone uses the same silicon as the n900, and it runs at 600 mhz Sep 19 22:21:22 sandstorm: depends what you call phone capaibilities Sep 19 22:21:27 sandstorm: I have data working. Sep 19 22:21:34 and data is all the service I have to test with Sep 19 22:21:43 Tuco_maria: not 24/7 Sep 19 22:21:56 phone calls, smses and other telecommunications stuff you know. are there proper applicatons on gentoo ? Sep 19 22:22:06 sandstorm: there's KDE... Sep 19 22:22:16 lol Sep 19 22:22:18 sandstorm: for voice/SMS, you'll have to ask someone else though Sep 19 22:22:25 I don't have those (useless) services Sep 19 22:22:35 :P Sep 19 22:22:45 can you make phone calls with KDE ? Sep 19 22:22:48 * kerio has vivid memories of running gnome and kde on a machine with 384MBs of ram Sep 19 22:22:50 and receive them Sep 19 22:23:17 and boot your SIM card? authenticate yourself? connect to the GSM provider? with gentoo ? Sep 19 22:23:32 i like the hildon interface, more than kde or gnome Sep 19 22:24:27 if it is somehow possible, I, myself a gentoo user as well. Sep 19 22:24:33 on my laptop though Sep 19 22:24:48 and its my favourite distro btw. Sep 19 22:25:14 Tuco_maria: stock kernel clocks all available speeds from 250 to 600, depending on rather reasonable parameter evaluation, to get the best of performance and battery savings in all common usage profiles Sep 19 22:25:59 so, it`s impossible to have better battery times? Sep 19 22:26:15 not impossible Sep 19 22:26:24 you could do some research with powertop Sep 19 22:26:41 find out how long your phone spends in each power state Sep 19 22:26:53 no, it's simple to have great battery standby times, by simply using proper designed software that doesn't run circles for nothing Sep 19 22:27:18 then try and write a better algorithm for scaling the CPU up and down depending on the software your run Sep 19 22:27:28 DocScrutinizer: why do you hate pulseaudio and tracker, DocScrutinizer? Sep 19 22:27:33 ;) Sep 19 22:27:34 johnx: eh? Sep 19 22:28:06 DocScrutinizer, elaborate Sep 19 22:28:30 i use n900 mostly to browse the web and send/receive sms, ocasiomally some voice calls Sep 19 22:28:33 johnx: do you really think that's a appropriate task for somebody asking if downclocking CPU to 250 saves battery? Sep 19 22:29:19 DocScrutinizer, I'm trying to get across how much Nokia has already optimized this. It's not like they just forgot that running the CPU at a slower speed would save battery Sep 19 22:30:35 Tuco_maria: if you have battery standby time issues, it's quite usualy caused by some rogue software, or a bug somewhere. Try to find which processes keep the CPU running, or do large amounts of internet traffic (both eating battery like mad) Sep 19 22:31:38 the only software i`ve installed are firefox, fmms, angry birds and the plastic theme Sep 19 22:31:54 maybe one of the is buggy Sep 19 22:32:22 i think i read somewhere someone complaining that Frefox stays running after you close it Sep 19 22:32:48 Tuco_maria: for some reference, to give you an idea: my battery was at 60% after 24h of online via WLAN, with IRC by xchat on 8 chan, and a script cosntantly running and displaying my real battery status every 15s Sep 19 22:33:53 i would be happy with that, mine is lasting about one day Sep 19 22:34:22 Tuco_maria: first ssh to the device, and run htop. See if any process (except htop itself :-D ) is constantly eating CPU time Sep 19 22:34:37 ok Sep 19 22:36:31 then run powertop and make sure your cpu is mostly idle, see http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management#Powertop Sep 19 22:37:09 I don't have powertop installed as default, what may I do for that? Sep 19 22:37:40 and I don't know why it is not installed as default btw. Sep 19 22:37:42 find it in extras-devel, or tools repo Sep 19 22:37:57 it isn't installed by default Sep 19 22:38:02 hmm Sep 19 22:39:45 it should also give you a more clear idea of how the N900 does power saving, in terms of not just 'under'-clocking, but also actually suspending the CPU and turning it back on before the next timer expires Sep 19 22:39:50 s/it/powertop Sep 19 22:40:51 the substitution thing seems to not be working anymore Sep 19 22:40:55 so, overclocking it wouldnt decrease battery life as well right? Sep 19 22:41:12 http://maemo.org/packages/view/powertop/ Sep 19 22:42:12 it will. Not only battery standby time, but also CPU livetime Sep 19 22:42:20 life* Sep 19 22:43:07 overclocking is a really really bad idea, if you don't know *exactly* what and why you're doing Sep 19 22:43:22 Tuco_maria, some people have claimed to not lose too much battery life when allowing a higher 'maximum' clock speed, but in my case I don't feel like it's worth the risk Sep 19 22:43:26 on a system devel level of understanding Sep 19 22:44:25 i will leave it as it is then Sep 19 22:44:31 and even knowing enough, there is still the risk the processor you got was one with the lowest score and will fry much earlier than others Sep 19 22:44:37 Tuco_maria, I think that's smart :) Sep 19 22:46:08 was among the ones* Sep 19 22:46:36 Tuco_maria: look, if TI and Nokia would have seen any benefit in allowing it, they'd have a config option in settings, like "long standby"<->"super fast execution" Sep 19 22:47:13 maybe you are right... Sep 19 22:47:45 wait, we can't trust Nokia 100% on their decisions, there are many thigns people spot that Nokia didn't put enough work on Sep 19 22:48:11 yayaya Sep 19 22:48:26 in terms of power saving stuff, I tend to trust Nokia Sep 19 22:48:47 I even more tend to trust TI Sep 19 22:49:12 TiagoTiago_, have you read any of their white papers or watched one of their presentations on 'race to idle'? Sep 19 22:49:20 really quite cool stuff Sep 19 22:49:25 not really Sep 19 22:50:32 i mean, i have not read it Sep 19 22:50:43 is it on Youtube? Sep 19 22:50:57 * johnx digs it up Sep 19 22:51:07 and in all their whitepapers about OMAP and SmartReflex, Ti nowhere mentions any need for user/manufacturer to make a tradeoff between execution speed and power consumption. It's always like "this technology allows fastest execution speeds on lowest possible power consumption", no either / or Sep 19 22:51:08 thanx Sep 19 22:51:32 DocScrutinizer: thank you very much for info and link Sep 19 22:52:15 isn't SmartReflex turned off? I remember i once had a program for setting max clock speed that had a checkbox ofr SR that was unmarked, and when i marked it it made the device crashj Sep 19 22:52:58 TiagoTiago_, http://free-electrons.com/blog/fosdem-2009-videos/ , advanced power management for omap3 Sep 19 22:53:05 TiagoTiago_: SmartReflex is partially turned off, due to some hw flaw which causes instabilities Sep 19 22:53:05 click the 'video' link below it Sep 19 22:53:39 so enabling SmartReflex fully can cause instability? Sep 19 22:54:00 why did they let hardware with such a flaw be released as a finished product? Sep 19 22:54:07 TiagoTiago_: to be more specific, I think one particular function detail of the bunch of measures sailing under "SmartReflex" was disabled Sep 19 22:54:41 sandstorm: yes Sep 19 22:54:54 possibly even hw damage Sep 19 22:54:59 there's a tweak going around on the net echoing 1s to two configuration settings to enable SmartReflex, so you dont suggest that? Sep 19 22:55:01 TiagoTiago_, happens all the time in the real world Sep 19 22:55:21 Who's fault is the hardware has that flaw? Sep 19 22:55:27 sandstorm: no, I don't suggest that Sep 19 22:55:47 dunno. could be the board Nokia designed or the chip from Ti, or the core from ARM for all I know Sep 19 22:55:54 sandstorm: there's been reasons why it's been disabled Sep 19 22:56:06 the audio int hat video is horrible,, way too much echo and dist5ortion, very hard to understand anything :( Sep 19 22:56:24 TiagoTiago_, I think there might be a summary of the talk somewhere Sep 19 22:56:58 in addition, there are tweaks to make swappiness value 15 or 30 other than 100(default), briefly; what do you say about this thread: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=61679 Sep 19 22:57:13 http://lwn.net/Articles/318727/ then scroll down to 'power management in nokia's next maemo device' Sep 19 22:57:26 do you think that swappolube thing is safe? Sep 19 22:57:28 TiagoTiago_: there's flaws in (virtually) every hardware Sep 19 22:57:57 TiagoTiago_: if it's causing hw damages, then odds are it had been noticed way too late Sep 19 22:58:13 well, for instabilities same applies Sep 19 22:58:31 did NOkia get a discount on the flawed chips? Sep 19 22:58:52 TiagoTiago_, sandstorm, a much more interesting discussion on swappiness: http://kerneltrap.org/node/3000 Sep 19 22:59:05 I guess it's not the chips that are flawed, but the layout or hw design Sep 19 22:59:26 TiagoTiago_: if you're really intersted... I may elaborate Sep 19 22:59:39 sure Sep 19 23:00:05 all the following : disclaimer: AIUI & AFAIK Sep 19 23:00:23 what does AIUI stands for? Sep 19 23:00:44 ~aiui Sep 19 23:00:44 i heard aiui is As I Understand It Sep 19 23:00:45 IF the N900 was a car, would it be recalled due to that flaw? Sep 19 23:00:51 i see Sep 19 23:00:58 The smartreflex bit that's been disabled is doing automatic switching of core voltage, to minimize power drop in the SoC Sep 19 23:01:19 ~SoC Sep 19 23:01:19 well, soc is System On Chip - many embedded cpus include a variety of peripherals as well which makes them more than just a CPU. Sep 19 23:01:30 hm Sep 19 23:01:33 now the regulators that do that voltage regulation are in GAIA chip Sep 19 23:01:50 the power rails go to OMAP SoC Sep 19 23:02:06 ~gaia Sep 19 23:02:08 the voltages there are changing very fast sometimes Sep 19 23:02:47 twl4030 GAIA OMAP companion chip with power management and otter supplementary functions like audio, keyboard etc Sep 19 23:03:47 now if the traces running from GAIA to SoC are too long, or have too sharp bends, or some capacitor there doesn't exactly meet the specs, or whatever... Sep 19 23:03:47 so this smartreflex is uber beardy type folks optimisations Sep 19 23:04:01 kinda like taking the mirrors off your car to make it more streamlined? Sep 19 23:04:06 odds are the voltage can't be regulated exactly and fast enough Sep 19 23:04:12 lcuk, as is all modern mobile power management stuff Sep 19 23:04:31 in a way yes Sep 19 23:04:37 so CPU is operating on wrong voltage for a few milisecons, during clock speed transitions Sep 19 23:04:38 but if we have coped for this long with out it etc Sep 19 23:05:03 lcuk, eh? really? you're against better power management? Sep 19 23:05:08 srsly? Sep 19 23:05:12 not at all Sep 19 23:05:34 but i remember reading that bug report and that it did not work for everyone and caused instability when people turned it on Sep 19 23:05:47 so i just didnt go further down that particular path Sep 19 23:05:51 yeah, it's called 'the bleeding edge' Sep 19 23:06:11 next time they'll get it right and it'll save us another 1% Sep 19 23:06:16 of course! Sep 19 23:07:00 TiagoTiago_: so when eventually it became apparent the dynamic core voltage regulation caused such problems, maybe even defects in SoC, it was best decision to disable it and live with that 1% shorter standby time this will cause Sep 19 23:07:31 a kinda offtopic question that i've just reembered, would the speeds achived by waving the N900 fast with your hand be enough to affect the signals received due to doppler? Sep 19 23:07:33 I see Sep 19 23:07:41 no Sep 19 23:07:55 TiagoTiago_, at the first linuxtag event I went to with some folks Sep 19 23:08:08 your hands don't move at a significant fraction of c Sep 19 23:08:11 we were walking around and swinging our n810s around Sep 19 23:08:13 to get gps Sep 19 23:08:20 logging about 80mph Sep 19 23:08:24 TiagoTiago_: yes - but only for GPS. Sep 19 23:08:26 lol Sep 19 23:08:27 TiagoTiago_: there are a lot of other functions all labeled SmartReflex, that are not related to dynamic core voltage, and those can't be switched off by this sysnode writing 0 Sep 19 23:08:29 TiagoTiago_: that's how it works Sep 19 23:08:39 can I please get your advices about these tweaks: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=815333&postcount=54 Sep 19 23:09:02 no sandstorm Sep 19 23:09:09 go and read the swappolube thread :P Sep 19 23:09:14 they have the same things in i think Sep 19 23:09:22 letme check Sep 19 23:09:34 TiagoTiago_: once again, all this isn't backed up by any insider knowledge, but results from mere deduction from the known facts Sep 19 23:09:36 would you consider the stuff the swapplube does to be safe? Sep 19 23:09:44 i see Sep 19 23:10:23 sandstorm, I posted a link earlier about swappiness. please check read through it first. it's not nearly as clear-cut as you might think Sep 19 23:10:45 moin Sep 19 23:11:03 ah yes they are the same but I had not seen that swappolube thread before I read those tweaks on another thread. Sep 19 23:11:41 johnx: I've read the introduction but not the e-mails, it will take some time :) Sep 19 23:12:08 basically, what it comes down to is that different people want different behavior out of the linux VM subsystem Sep 19 23:12:32 changing swappiness is totally safe, but it might not do what you want it to Sep 19 23:12:59 also: it's not AI. it can't guess what you want to keep in memory at all costs and what you wish wasn't cached Sep 19 23:13:03 what about the other tweaks the swappolube thing does? Sep 19 23:13:22 sandstorm, the swappolube package pulls together a few of these tweaks Sep 19 23:13:23 I just want all the applications reside in RAM until its critically full, is not that rational ? Sep 19 23:13:28 no. Sep 19 23:13:32 into a nicer reinstallable, and hence reproducable Sep 19 23:13:33 package Sep 19 23:13:34 :) Sep 19 23:13:51 sandstorm: It assumes that the applications are written so that the working setr can always fit in RAM. Sep 19 23:13:53 can you enlighten me with that ? Sep 19 23:14:05 sandstorm, I know that LKML thread is long, but I think it might really help you understand the situation better than we could explain it Sep 19 23:14:10 Gentle reminder to everyone to vote if you're eligible. Sep 19 23:14:13 sandstorm: Plus - there are bits of code that are run once and never used again. Sep 19 23:14:14 sandstorm, because application allocations and deallocations are sometimes silly Sep 19 23:14:32 johnx: I will read it tomorrow :) Sep 19 23:14:33 and some apps like to grab 50mb for something used rarely Sep 19 23:14:46 sandstorm, then I'll answer questions about swappiness tomorrow ;) Sep 19 23:15:06 ah allright Sep 19 23:15:07 GeneralAntilles: post link! :-D Sep 19 23:15:17 http://maemo.org/vote/ Sep 19 23:15:21 since it is 2 am here my mind could get confused :) Sep 19 23:15:28 whats the link for GeneralAntilles ? Sep 19 23:15:46 ~community-council Sep 19 23:15:50 ~council Sep 19 23:15:56 * GeneralAntilles smacks infobot Sep 19 23:15:58 ~government Sep 19 23:15:59 extra, extra, read all about it, government is broken. It doesn't work. It doesn't keep our streets safe and it doesn't educate our children. Government is good at only one thing: It breaks your legs, hands you a pair of crutches, and says, 'See, without us you wouldn't be able to walk.'. Libertarians need to STFU Sep 19 23:16:11 hmm Sep 19 23:16:16 lol Sep 19 23:16:18 infobot isnt as nice as he should be Sep 19 23:16:23 lol Sep 19 23:16:30 Zeitgeist in action :) Sep 19 23:17:11 ~council is The Maemo Community Council is a five-person body chosen by the Maemo community. The Council's mission is to "represent the Maemo community's best interests to Nokia, and to act as a community conduit for Nokia-generated information." http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council Sep 19 23:17:12 GeneralAntilles: okay Sep 19 23:17:17 that's what happens when an AI like infobot rises to consciousness in an IRC channel ... Sep 19 23:17:17 no, cross channel factoids Sep 19 23:17:35 okay ? :P Sep 19 23:17:40 Debian doesn't have a council. Sep 19 23:18:51 * SpeedEvil is re-watching Babylon 5. Sep 19 23:19:13 Todays was De'lens expulsion from the Grey Council. Sep 19 23:19:20 I imagine it's like that. Sep 19 23:19:49 I think a problem with the N900 is it has just enough resources to make developers feel like they don't need to worry about being carefull with resource consumption whie still not having enough resources to spare when under anything above low load Sep 19 23:19:58 yes Sep 19 23:20:01 exactly Sep 19 23:20:12 They test their app, and it works. Sep 19 23:20:15 They ship it. Sep 19 23:20:15 Twice the RAM would work wonders. Sep 19 23:20:29 thanks for all the enlightenment, I am done for tonight, let me continue the research tomorrow :) goodnight Sep 19 23:20:30 But it should be advertised as 256MB Sep 19 23:20:33 They don't test it with media player in the background, when the user decides to take a picture. Sep 19 23:20:42 and the OS should do its damndest to spoof devs into thinking it's 256MB. Sep 19 23:21:07 'night sandstorm. catch you soon Sep 19 23:21:18 rest well Sep 19 23:21:52 lcuk: (infobot isnt as nice as he should be) she :-D Sep 19 23:22:01 GeneralAntilles, huh? how would it do that? Sep 19 23:22:16 johnx, I'm just the idea guy. Sep 19 23:22:21 Implementation is somebody else's job. Sep 19 23:22:32 GeneralAntilles, <_< Sep 19 23:22:43 Ok - I'm about to vote, does anyone want my paypal address? Sep 19 23:22:49 provind no virtual memory and forcing developers to implement virtual memory funcitonality from scratch? Sep 19 23:23:34 "Using Qt has cut our development time in half, because we can build one UI in Qt and target both Symbian^3 as well as MeeGo." Sep 19 23:23:37 * GeneralAntilles groans. Sep 19 23:23:46 Just like cutting Ovi Map's dev time in half, eh? Sep 19 23:24:35 Okaay. I go to maemo.org/vote - enter the credentials, and it's blank. Sep 19 23:24:36 hmm Sep 19 23:25:06 Got any fancy noscript things going on? Sep 19 23:25:08 Ah - redoing worked Sep 19 23:25:09 no Sep 19 23:25:10 Needs a bit of js, I think. Sep 19 23:25:13 Ah, well then. Sep 19 23:25:29 I am on mobile, my CISP may be doing silly things Sep 19 23:26:09 GeneralAntilles: now THAT's as simple as it gets, no? Just make applauncher set sane ulimits to each app started :-D Sep 19 23:26:47 Hehe Sep 19 23:26:58 * GeneralAntilles grumbles about EtherPad not working. Sep 19 23:27:06 The kernel is patched to detect stalls. Sep 19 23:27:20 When these happen, the applications contending for resources are noted. Sep 19 23:27:35 The pay of each dev is docked for every contention. Sep 19 23:27:44 And all devs are given really large nerf bats. Sep 19 23:28:10 how hard would it be for Nokia to makke a device that comes from the factory with dualboot MeeGo/Symbian^3 ? Sep 19 23:28:11 * DocScrutinizer googles nerf bat Sep 19 23:28:39 TiagoTiago, not hard from a technical standpoint. very hard from a 'getting it past marketing standpoint' Sep 19 23:28:55 hehe Sep 19 23:28:55 why? Sep 19 23:29:12 TiagoTiago: managment is not intrerested in cool stuff. Sep 19 23:29:19 lol Sep 19 23:29:26 TiagoTiago: that 5% of users may be interested in. Sep 19 23:29:37 because people who buy phones don't even understand the concept of an OS, let alone the concept that you could have two, but only one can run at the same time Sep 19 23:29:46 Especially if it may cause the 95% of users to call support when their system is doing somerthing unexpected. Sep 19 23:30:42 DocScrutinizer, wheres is the factoid database maintained (apart from individual commands here) Sep 19 23:31:02 and 99% of users understanding the concept of OS are going W*T*F???? Sep 19 23:31:14 really? I was thinking having Symbian avaible would reduce significantly the amount of whinning about the N900 Sep 19 23:31:52 lcuk: it lives on a (MySQL?) db on the server where infobot lives Sep 19 23:32:08 oh maintained. No idea Sep 19 23:32:29 is there a webui to get a dump of its complete contents? Sep 19 23:32:43 TiagoTiago, you should probably just ask Nokia directly Sep 19 23:32:44 those who want a simple smartphone ready to run out of the boc without all the hackery would use Symbian and the rest of us would still have our rooted mobile computer Sep 19 23:33:00 box* Sep 19 23:33:04 I think it must have a huge heritage from some smart linguistic project, and then gathered factiods from 200 chan over several years Sep 19 23:33:16 lcuk: (webui) nope Sep 19 23:33:39 ~knowledge Sep 19 23:33:40 somebody said knowledge was power Sep 19 23:33:44 ... Sep 19 23:34:26 * SpeedEvil holds up his anonymous token. Sep 19 23:34:36 lcuk: I asked Tim about mirroring the root instance of infobot, but he wasn't nterested and also said he'd not give out he whole database before he 'cleaned it for privacy reasons' Sep 19 23:34:40 * lindi- wonders if one could just run both symbian and android on top of meego without any dualboot business Sep 19 23:35:06 lindi-, yes. it's called virtualization. xen was working on an ARM port. so is vmware Sep 19 23:35:10 having a Symbian VM would be usefull Sep 19 23:35:32 that would be a lot of fun trying to figure out which process is keeping the CPU awake though Sep 19 23:35:42 also, I think that's about 5 years out in terms of CPU power Sep 19 23:35:43 johnx: at least for android something lighter should work Sep 19 23:36:18 Android programs mostly run with that proprietary Java-like VM, no? Sep 19 23:36:22 lindi-, I'd bet not. Android tends to rely on a fairly customized kernel with patches that haven't/can't go upstream Sep 19 23:36:25 johnx: and vmware is non-free so it does not count :) Sep 19 23:36:44 lindi-, they're closest to market though, or at least claim to be Sep 19 23:36:52 android's kernel is a fork rather than a patchset now Sep 19 23:37:08 BCMM_, that makes me really sad Sep 19 23:37:23 I was really hoping they could come to some agreement ... Sep 19 23:37:27 itms gonna just drift away over time or are they gonna keep porting patches ito it? Sep 19 23:37:51 i like it - makes it easier to counter those who say "but it's linux!" Sep 19 23:38:01 lol Sep 19 23:38:08 It is good for the android devs to be in a ghetto. Sep 19 23:38:12 in a way that doesn't rapidly lead to "what's libc?" Sep 19 23:38:16 johnx: vmware on ARM? o.O Sep 19 23:38:17 why? Sep 19 23:38:18 BCMM_, yeah, but I was hoping for being able to run a 'standard' linux distro on hardware that already had android Sep 19 23:38:22 That way they can get funding for porting android-linux to devices. Sep 19 23:38:26 DocScrutinizer, let me find the article Sep 19 23:38:54 BCMM_: lol Sep 19 23:39:13 I think MeeGo is planning to actually be a Linux OS Sep 19 23:39:18 unlike Maemo Sep 19 23:39:32 * asj chortles Sep 19 23:39:37 it is, if they can figure out how to deal with the repositories :) Sep 19 23:39:39 johnx: OpenVZ should work? Sep 19 23:39:47 isn't maemo running on a linux kernel? Sep 19 23:39:52 as in, a real one? Sep 19 23:39:56 FIQ|n900: a fork Sep 19 23:39:58 like Android Sep 19 23:39:59 oh Sep 19 23:40:03 screw it Sep 19 23:40:03 johnx: I was thinking one could just offer the api used by android apps and forget android power management Sep 19 23:40:04 is there a way to have the WiFi icon in thr status bar reflect the current signal quality (the amount of arcs/bars changing depending on it) ? Sep 19 23:40:45 FIQ|n900: well, Maemo is dead. MeeGo is supposed to work with Linux. so.. Sep 19 23:40:46 FIQ|n900, luke-jr is known to exagerate Sep 19 23:40:56 johnx: not exaggerating Sep 19 23:41:09 uname... Sep 19 23:41:13 Android and Maemo are on the same level as far as kernel Sep 19 23:41:37 maemo has a pathced kernel, like all major distros Sep 19 23:41:38 luke-jr, uhm. really not. Most maemo apps can be run on a totally vanilla kernel Sep 19 23:41:43 patched Sep 19 23:41:52 johnx: symbian probably would require real virtualization Sep 19 23:41:54 johnx: that's the other end of Maemo Sep 19 23:41:54 Maemo still can run progs made for regular Linux with little modfication Sep 19 23:41:56 android has mangled some core stuff Sep 19 23:42:17 that upstream has rejected with a "wtf" Sep 19 23:42:18 as I said *as far as kernel* Sep 19 23:42:20 luke-jr, so you mean the N900 has a kernel with significant patches to support its hardware? aaah, why didn't you say so? ;) Sep 19 23:42:24 BCMM_: so did Maemo Sep 19 23:42:33 DocScrutinizer, http://www.itpro.co.uk/609997/video-two-operating-systems-on-one-phone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNo6pn-dnSQ Sep 19 23:42:34 johnx: also userland APIs Sep 19 23:42:39 johnx: just like Android Sep 19 23:42:56 correct me if i'm wrong, but maemo's kernel patches are pretty much all device driver stuff, right? Sep 19 23:42:56 johnx: thanks Sep 19 23:43:00 BCMM_: no Sep 19 23:43:17 BCMM_: even if you port mainline Linux 100% to the N900 hardware, it will not boot Maemo userland Sep 19 23:43:20 so what else is there? Sep 19 23:43:31 why not? Sep 19 23:43:33 BCMM_: various userspace API changes Sep 19 23:43:37 luke-jr, sorry, you're saying the maemo kernel has patches to support userland APIs. please back up that claim with examples Sep 19 23:43:45 johnx: /proc/bootreason Sep 19 23:43:54 Why they decided to not use vanilla? Sep 19 23:43:56 yeah. I'm going to go ahead and call that trivial Sep 19 23:44:03 next? Sep 19 23:44:11 that's a proc entry Sep 19 23:44:14 johnx: non-trivial enough that Maemo will never boot with normal Linux Sep 19 23:44:27 BCMM_: which is a kernel<->userspace API Sep 19 23:44:28 i suppose it's technically a userland api, but... Sep 19 23:44:30 johnx: he's held this stance for 2 years, what's the point of even discussing it? Sep 19 23:44:59 also, a load of device drivers on many platforms have them Sep 19 23:45:00 asj, good point. I just don't like him biasing people who honestly don't know (such as FIQ|n900) Sep 19 23:45:13 luke-jr: just modify maemo to cope with lack of bootreason? Sep 19 23:45:28 lindi-: Maemo isn't open source Sep 19 23:45:32 that part might be, not sure Sep 19 23:45:33 johnx: that's why it's easier just to point a finger and laugh, it's IRC after all Sep 19 23:45:52 * johnx points a finger, laughs at luke-jr for being a zealot Sep 19 23:46:00 these are problems MeeGo is supposed to address Sep 19 23:46:02 * asj high fives johnx ;) Sep 19 23:46:04 asj, you were right ;) I concede the point Sep 19 23:46:12 what exactly does bootreason do? Sep 19 23:46:23 it tells you the cause of the last reboot Sep 19 23:46:28 is Maemo not being OSS compatible with the license of the linux stuff that was used as base? Sep 19 23:46:28 BCMM_: nothing useful Sep 19 23:46:41 TiagoTiago: it's legal in Maemo 5 AFAIK Sep 19 23:46:53 TiagoTiago: but closed still means we can't change those parts Sep 19 23:46:58 anyways, channel is too distracting for now. catch you all later Sep 19 23:47:04 cya Sep 19 23:47:19 BCMM_: it tells you why the system rebooted last, if it was a crash or normal startup Sep 19 23:47:24 luke-jr: then why worry about it? i would not recommend running closed source software anyway :) Sep 19 23:47:39 it was quite handy back in december when 32wd_to was causing excessive reboots Sep 19 23:47:41 luke-jr: do you consider all patchsets forks? for example, is TuxOnIce linux? Sep 19 23:47:42 lindi-: it is impossible to not, on N900 Sep 19 23:47:43 what is the license? is it more than one? Sep 19 23:48:16 BCMM_: depends on the mergability, etc Sep 19 23:48:19 luke-jr: i heard rumors that even battery charging now works with free software Sep 19 23:48:23 BCMM_: TuxOnIce is a branch AFAIK Sep 19 23:48:36 TiagoTiago: much is just copyright Nokia AFAIK Sep 19 23:48:43 lindi-: is that done? Sep 19 23:48:46 luke-jr: but would be nice to hear what is missing Sep 19 23:48:50 no contagious licenses? Sep 19 23:48:54 lindi-: I know it's possible, but AFAIK nobody has actually put it into practice yet Sep 19 23:49:19 luke-jr: with some uglyish shell script afaik yrses Sep 19 23:49:41 shell script doesn't do everything IIRC Sep 19 23:50:04 luke-jr: ok Sep 19 23:50:06 lin,,, what are those non-ascii chars in your last msg? Sep 19 23:50:11 in any case, some parts we *can't* replace, even if we had source Sep 19 23:50:16 because the OMAP won't run it unsigned Sep 19 23:50:16 ok the one before the last Sep 19 23:50:45 Is it confirmed that that is in fact true? Sep 19 23:50:53 SpeedEvil: jacekowski did AFAIK Sep 19 23:51:00 hmm Sep 19 23:51:08 luke-jr: i could live with a non-free boot loader perhaps if it was the piece you had in mind Sep 19 23:51:14 also, MeeGo has a special NOLO for qemu Sep 19 23:51:23 because the N900 one won't run on qemu due to signing stuff Sep 19 23:51:24 luke-jr: as a temporary compromise Sep 19 23:51:33 yeah - non-free bootloadrr foresn't bother me at all Sep 19 23:51:36 lindi-: it's annoying in practice Sep 19 23:51:42 luke-jr: sure Sep 19 23:51:44 lindi-: we can't boot multiple kernels in any sane way right now Sep 19 23:51:52 People did figure out how to install unsigned progs in that Symbian that requred it, my hope is someone will eventually do it for the N900 hardware ass well Sep 19 23:52:07 * luke-jr would like to replace cellmo firmware too Sep 19 23:52:18 TiagoTiago: there's no problem running stuff on the N900, unless you're a zealot like luke-jr Sep 19 23:52:21 think of the battery life we could save by moving some timed stuff to it Sep 19 23:52:43 wmarone: tell that to NITdroid and MeeGo Sep 19 23:52:44 luke-jr: Well... Sep 19 23:52:52 luke-jr: Idle I get 6mA or so. Sep 19 23:52:55 both of which run? Sep 19 23:52:57 wmarone: both of which require ugly hacks to boot an alternate kernel Sep 19 23:53:11 erm Sep 19 23:53:12 how so? Sep 19 23:53:19 luke-jr: That is 8 or so days. Sep 19 23:53:21 wmarone, we can't replace things like the cell modem firmware for example Sep 19 23:53:25 irrelevant Sep 19 23:53:25 not-quite working uboot and kexec Sep 19 23:53:38 luke-jr: uboot is a hack to make it easy to load the meego/nitdroid kernels Sep 19 23:53:47 wmarone: it fails at making it easy so far Sep 19 23:53:52 wmarone: i do not think he qualifies as a true zealot if he runs non-free stuff in such great numbers willingly :) Sep 19 23:53:59 you have to opent he N900 up to change kernels Sep 19 23:54:09 lindi-: I don't. Sep 19 23:54:16 luke-jr: wow, then how the hell does power-kernel work? Sep 19 23:54:25 wmarone: it replaces the normal Maemo one Sep 19 23:54:39 wmarone: as mentioned earlier, Maemo won't boot with a normal Linux. Sep 19 23:54:43 MeeGo won't boot with a Maemo kernel Sep 19 23:54:44 ... Sep 19 23:54:47 NITdroid either Sep 19 23:54:55 you're mixing stuff up here Sep 19 23:54:56 there is no single kernel that will run all 3 Sep 19 23:55:13 but nonetheless you can replace the kernel and boot pretty much any OS, right? Sep 19 23:55:25 wmarone: you mean flash a different kernel every boot? no thanks Sep 19 23:55:37 oh well then get to working on u-boot Sep 19 23:55:42 they only just started, last I checked Sep 19 23:55:43 how hard would it be to have a single ernel that changes itself depending on what is using it? Sep 19 23:55:49 wouldn't have it, if NOLO wasn't locked down Sep 19 23:55:57 luke-jr: would be interesting to hear what non-free software you still depend on n900. i am planning to buy one if it becomes possible to use with free software Sep 19 23:55:58 TiagoTiago: that's what multiboot is Sep 19 23:56:19 lindi-: there is, and never will be, an open SGX driver Sep 19 23:56:35 i thought multiboot used separated partitions each with its own kernel Sep 19 23:56:36 luke-jr: never say never :) Sep 19 23:56:40 TiagoTiago: exactly Sep 19 23:56:41 luke-jr likes to speak in absolutes Sep 19 23:56:43 lindi-: why not? Sep 19 23:56:58 luke-jr: because you don't know the future. stop speaking as if you do Sep 19 23:57:03 lindi-: ImgTec is completely hostile to free software Sep 19 23:57:11 luke-jr: tuxonice is a patch Sep 19 23:57:30 i said a sing.le kernel that changes itself to fit the different OS' using it Sep 19 23:57:35 BCMM_: distributed as a patch maybe, but nobody writes patches Sep 19 23:57:51 luke-jr: anyways doesnt a plain framebuffer work? Sep 19 23:57:55 TiagoTiago: not hard at all, but I'm pretty sure nobody has interest in tht Sep 19 23:58:02 why? Sep 19 23:58:02 lindi-: for 2D perhaps Sep 19 23:58:15 luke-jr: yes, is that not enough? Sep 19 23:58:18 TiagoTiago: because it would be high maintenance Sep 19 23:58:19 luke-jr: is a kernel that is patched with tuxonice still linux, by your standards? Sep 19 23:58:24 hm Sep 19 23:58:26 lindi-: not for gaming Sep 19 23:58:32 lindi-: 2D isn't enough though, Maemo 5 and meego both require OpenGL ES support Sep 19 23:58:49 BCMM_: technically no, but since it's still compatible, it is for all *practical* purposes Sep 19 23:59:13 luke-jr: ok but at least you could run a free system? Sep 19 23:59:38 lindi-: not sure... Sep 19 23:59:47 talking about that, do you know of a program, like a demo, that shows all the potential of OpenGL EsS on the N900 ( or tries to) ? Sep 19 23:59:47 lindi-: been a while since I booted direct to Gentoo Sep 19 23:59:59 ES Sep 20 00:00:14 lindi-: usually booting Gentoo goes through Maemo's bootmenu Sep 20 00:00:15 ( lindi-: we can't boot multiple kernels in any sane way right now) what's wrong with chainloader e.g uBoot, to have a bootmenu to select kernels to boot from? Sep 20 00:00:20 luke-jr: I find your position bit odd Sep 20 00:00:26 DocScrutinizer51: it's tolerable, if it ever works Sep 20 00:00:42 lindi-: why? Sep 20 00:00:47 luke-jr: so do you run vanilla on you computer? Sep 20 00:00:52 BCMM_: no Sep 20 00:01:05 BCMM_: I run Gentoo's patchset, which is close to vanilla. Sep 20 00:01:26 it adds userland APIs Sep 20 00:01:31 BCMM_: does it? Sep 20 00:01:42 pretty sure that would be against Gentoo policy. Sep 20 00:02:02 luke-jr: fbsplash Sep 20 00:02:18 BCMM_: dunno anything about that Sep 20 00:02:22 I certainly don't use/depend on it Sep 20 00:02:54 could just as well be running vanilla Sep 20 00:03:12 luke-jr: your complains about non-free 3d support would be much more credible if you rejected the 3d stuff because it is non-free and just used 2d stuff, carefully documenting for others how this can be done Sep 20 00:03:14 I just figure by the time Gentoo's patched it, it's had time to sit and get bugfixes :P Sep 20 00:03:22 lindi-: working on it Sep 20 00:03:39 lindi-: need to get X usable first Sep 20 00:04:00 luke-jr: of course this is biased by the fact that I'm planning to buy n900 if it becomes possible to operate free software Sep 20 00:04:07 +with Sep 20 00:04:21 luke-jr: ok, maybe I was just misunderstanding your position Sep 20 00:04:33 lindi-: it's a long road Sep 20 00:04:42 luke-jr: btw, does gentoo have a written policy somewhere nowadays? Sep 20 00:04:47 lindi-: nfc Sep 20 00:05:03 Is Symbian^3 any more open than Maemo currently? Sep 20 00:05:12 I got tired of the politics and dropped my developer position a number of years ago Sep 20 00:05:21 now I just do stuff in overlays Sep 20 00:05:46 luke-jr: nfc? Sep 20 00:05:50 no freaking clue Sep 20 00:05:56 luke-jr: oh Sep 20 00:06:12 lindi-: What do you mean by 'operate free software'. Sep 20 00:06:16 ~nfc Sep 20 00:06:16 rumour has it, nfc is No Fucking Clue Sep 20 00:06:24 infobot: fail Sep 20 00:06:24 FAIL. Sep 20 00:06:25 SpeedEvil: "operate with free software" sorry Sep 20 00:06:28 lol Sep 20 00:06:36 lindi-: You will never legally have a mobile phone with a complete open stack on all cores. Sep 20 00:06:46 SpeedEvil: never say never there either :) Sep 20 00:06:49 SpeedEvil: nonsense Sep 20 00:06:55 lindi-: ever try a Freerunner Sep 20 00:07:06 SpeedEvil: Freerunner has an open cellmo now, underway Sep 20 00:07:06 luke-jr: yeah I'm using one, how did you guess? ;) Sep 20 00:07:08 what about those projects creating homebrew cell phones? Sep 20 00:07:10 Legally - from a mass market maker. Sep 20 00:07:20 SpeedEvil: screw mass market makers Sep 20 00:07:32 screw devices that can't get off the ground seriously :) Sep 20 00:07:40 SpeedEvil: it's not black and white. but now that i have established certain level of freedom on my phone I don't want to downgrade on my next phone in to something more non-free Sep 20 00:07:44 SpeedEvil: anyhow, that was what everyone said about open software-wifi years ago Sep 20 00:07:46 console dialing ftw Sep 20 00:07:58 lol Sep 20 00:08:07 lindi-: do you use the free cellular firmware? Sep 20 00:08:23 luke-jr: nope since it's not legal in finland at least Sep 20 00:08:29 awesome gprs data :D Sep 20 00:08:34 luke-jr: GSM is much more regulated. Sep 20 00:08:38 SpeedEvil: just because the gsm stuff is proprietary and runs on a separate ARM chip is no reason to use non-free 3d stuff :) Sep 20 00:08:39 do free software people have a problem with using a serial modem? Sep 20 00:08:41 lindi-: so "yes, but I won't admit to a crime"? Sep 20 00:08:55 like the original modems Sep 20 00:09:07 lcuk: depends Sep 20 00:09:11 luke-jr: no comment of course :) Sep 20 00:09:13 I personally see very little difference between close-source graphics binary blobs and bluetooth/3G/... firmware. Sep 20 00:09:29 luke-jr: but I do can confess that the GPS stuff is being worked on Sep 20 00:09:31 SpeedEvil: one runs within the system Sep 20 00:09:42 hang on, which sort? Sep 20 00:09:48 can the carriers tell which OS/firmware we are using? Sep 20 00:09:49 lindi-: GPS is implemented in the cellular modem on N900 Sep 20 00:09:52 a modem is talking to over seial with AT commands Sep 20 00:09:56 serial Sep 20 00:09:56 luke-jr: yep but I mean on freerunner Sep 20 00:10:09 TiagoTiago: to an extent, yes, in some cases. Sep 20 00:10:14 lcuk: I tolerate non-free firmware, but many people don't Sep 20 00:10:22 how? Sep 20 00:10:22 a modem is a non trivial piece of hardware, but it hasa featureset that can be dont by flagging certain wires at the right time Sep 20 00:10:29 my ideal, however, is free software, free firmware, free schematics, and free chip designs Sep 20 00:10:35 done Sep 20 00:10:45 TiagoTiago: If they supply the handsets, they can choose to supply or not based on the OS. Sep 20 00:10:52 lol Sep 20 00:11:04 luke-jr: with rtklib I can calculate GPS position solutions instead of doing it with the proprietary firmware that is in the GPS chip of freerunner Sep 20 00:11:08 "closed-sorce graphics binary blobs" could refer either to firmware that needs to be loaded by the kernel, or to cloaed opengl implementations where 3d software has to use a propriatary lib Sep 20 00:11:10 SpeedEvil: that's technically illegal for them to do int he US Sep 20 00:11:14 (control what handsets you use) Sep 20 00:11:28 so if you slap the sim on a device you built and programmed they would be none the wiser? Sep 20 00:11:37 lindi-: interesting. any idea how that could be retrofit to N810? :P Sep 20 00:11:43 luke-jr: no idea Sep 20 00:11:55 TiagoTiago: most cellular services over here don't use SIMs Sep 20 00:12:15 someone retrofitting cellular onto 810 Sep 20 00:12:20 making a really nice job of it too Sep 20 00:12:23 lindi-: anyhow, to do that on N900, you would *need* a free cellular firmware Sep 20 00:12:26 that sucks Sep 20 00:12:43 lcuk: GPS. not cell. Sep 20 00:12:55 luke-jr, n810 has gps Sep 20 00:13:01 it doesnt have cell Sep 20 00:13:03 lcuk: non-free and non-useful Sep 20 00:13:04 luke-jr: sure but you can use an external GPS device Sep 20 00:13:07 thats what he is adding afaik Sep 20 00:13:11 its very useful Sep 20 00:13:13 lcuk: rtklib is presumably a free GPS library Sep 20 00:13:13 tracy loved todd Sep 20 00:13:28 well theres free gps on it already Sep 20 00:13:32 lcuk: nope Sep 20 00:13:35 the routing is :( Sep 20 00:13:40 ... Sep 20 00:13:43 cos its disabled now and tracy keeps getting lost Sep 20 00:13:53 luke-jr: beware, rtklib only replaces the last part of the calculations, it's not a complete firmware Sep 20 00:13:54 lcuk: N810 GPS is 100% non-free Sep 20 00:14:12 lindi-: no clue on N810's GPS Sep 20 00:14:15 luke-jr, it doesnt cost anything to use the maps Sep 20 00:14:15 luke-jr: and rtklib currently does not run on my freerunner, i need the cpu power of my laptop to run it :) Sep 20 00:14:24 lcuk: cost has nothing to do with free/non-free Sep 20 00:14:24 luke-jr: but the author has optimized it to run on a beagleboard Sep 20 00:14:27 Is there a way to make the N900 pretend to be a bluetooth GPS and trick programs on a PC and on other devices into accepting itms coordinates data etc? Sep 20 00:14:36 TiagoTiago: yes. Sep 20 00:14:41 TiagoTiago: in theory only Sep 20 00:14:44 luke-jr: do you have a freerunner? Sep 20 00:14:44 luke-jr, ahhh "the n810 gps does not have its freedom" Sep 20 00:14:47 lindi-: nope Sep 20 00:14:51 TiagoTiago: you need to set it up like the FR. Sep 20 00:15:14 SpeedEvil: I tried to, this MBP won't see it as a GPS Sep 20 00:15:18 luke-jr: oh, why not? ;) Sep 20 00:15:27 so no deal with Maemo? Sep 20 00:15:30 lindi-: too expensive Sep 20 00:15:45 luke-jr: ok :( Sep 20 00:15:48 luke-jr, hmm Sep 20 00:15:53 lindi-: especially considering there is no GSM/WCDMA here Sep 20 00:15:54 but you have an n900? Sep 20 00:16:04 lcuk: curtosy of Nokia Sep 20 00:16:32 k Sep 20 00:16:35 however that's spelt Sep 20 00:16:48 luke-jr: so you could just stop using that non-free stuff if you wanted? ;) Sep 20 00:17:01 i think it's "cortesy" Sep 20 00:17:05 lcuk: btw, N810's non-free GPS usually *doesn't work*, and *never works* with any modern kernel Sep 20 00:17:06 so Sep 20 00:17:13 courtesy Sep 20 00:17:13 theres more defeinitions of what free can be Sep 20 00:17:18 thx Sep 20 00:17:20 lindi-: it's a matter of time, if you don't want 3D and ignore firmware Sep 20 00:17:21 lindi-: I think Sep 20 00:17:25 free == no money, free == freedom, free == freebie Sep 20 00:17:29 luke-jr: sounds promising Sep 20 00:17:36 luke-jr: got some status web page? Sep 20 00:17:37 lcuk: free == no money is an abuse of language :P Sep 20 00:17:47 lindi-: not really, just for N810 Sep 20 00:17:56 lindi-: I have a Gentoo overlay though :p Sep 20 00:17:56 ok Sep 20 00:18:15 http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/gentoo-n900/ Sep 20 00:18:21 "no cost" ? Sep 20 00:18:21 The n810 GPS is broadly similar to the description in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Protocol Sep 20 00:18:27 luke-jr: anyways, many people are selling their freerunners quite cheaply nowadays Sep 20 00:18:27 I am unsure it is the same chip rthough. Sep 20 00:18:37 it's a TI GPS5300 Sep 20 00:18:43 I think the same one in the N900 Sep 20 00:18:54 lindi-: my cap for a FR is $50 :) Sep 20 00:19:14 luke-jr: you don't value freedom much :P Sep 20 00:19:19 luke-jr: I've been pondering I2C snooping the GPS on the n900 Sep 20 00:19:24 lindi-: freedom to do... notihng? :P Sep 20 00:19:31 luke-jr: As I'm contemplating opening it up to add stuff. Sep 20 00:19:37 luke-jr: to run emacs of course Sep 20 00:19:38 SpeedEvil: it's not on I2C Sep 20 00:19:46 luke-jr: It is. Sep 20 00:19:54 luke-jr: It's not on the CPUs I2C Sep 20 00:19:55 SpeedEvil: it's only connected to the cellular modem, not the OMAP Sep 20 00:20:04 you can access I2C on the modem? Sep 20 00:20:14 yes. Sep 20 00:20:19 With wires. Sep 20 00:20:39 lindi-: I don't value phones much. Much less phones with little memory/flash. Much less ones I can't get service for. Sep 20 00:20:43 SpeedEvil: ah Sep 20 00:20:49 SpeedEvil: good luck Sep 20 00:21:02 would it be possible to patch those contacts under the battery to allow bridging coomjunications between the outside and the walled stuff like the cell modem? Sep 20 00:21:02 SpeedEvil: it will probably be no more useful than the N810's serial data :p Sep 20 00:21:25 TiagoTiago: wtf? Sep 20 00:21:37 luke-jr: hmm, so you value functionality over freedom? Sep 20 00:22:18 lindi-: I value the combination. Sep 20 00:22:25 i thought someone here had said the other day that ther was a plug for the main proccessor and another for the protected processor that runs the cell modem and stuff Sep 20 00:22:25 freedom with no functionality is worthless Sep 20 00:22:34 functionality with no freedom is also worthless Sep 20 00:22:54 that's why I don't have a Ben NanoNote Sep 20 00:22:56 luke-jr: Indeed. Sep 20 00:23:03 is it true freedom without functionallity? Sep 20 00:23:25 that kinda sounds like being set free inside a jailcell Sep 20 00:23:41 infinite jailcell Sep 20 00:23:48 hehehe Sep 20 00:23:55 but even that has its upsides :) Sep 20 00:24:06 plenty of wallspace to write on Sep 20 00:24:19 lol Sep 20 00:24:25 A non-free device on which I can do apt-get install build-essentials isn't especially non-free to me. Sep 20 00:24:32 luke-jr: but I can make calls, so it's not "no functionality" ;) Sep 20 00:24:45 not if its just infinite in the up direction Sep 20 00:24:48 ++ SpeedEvil Sep 20 00:25:07 TiagoTiago, i am tall Sep 20 00:25:11 lol Sep 20 00:25:14 SpeedEvil: scary device (hint, it's build-essential) Sep 20 00:25:34 lindi-, hes free to try to install anything he wants :P Sep 20 00:25:45 that doesn't fit in the default partitioning of the N900, no? Sep 20 00:25:53 i believe it does Sep 20 00:26:01 a newly flashed pr1.2 has >00mb free Sep 20 00:26:03 100 Sep 20 00:26:11 and build-essential is about 80mb Sep 20 00:26:27 itm+ not optified, is it? Sep 20 00:26:39 with a new line in maemo-optify-boottime config file, the /usr/include folder can be put onto opt easily Sep 20 00:26:42 it's* Sep 20 00:26:58 lindi-: I installed it more than once Sep 20 00:27:08 lcuk: now think of the build dependencies of chromium-browser for a second :) I had to do several recompiles to get some ARM fixes done Sep 20 00:27:09 lcuk: is it the /usr/include dir that uses most of the space? Sep 20 00:27:10 lindi-: you can, but I couldn't. Sep 20 00:27:10 * lcuk has considered optifying build-essential many times Sep 20 00:27:12 (I recommend installing it in a chroot) Sep 20 00:27:19 wmarone, it uses enough Sep 20 00:27:22 and grows quickly Sep 20 00:27:24 Copy / into a /home/user/ Sep 20 00:27:27 hm Sep 20 00:27:29 as more -dev packages are needed Sep 20 00:27:31 /home/user/chroot Sep 20 00:27:34 currently i have only 13MB free in rootfs :/ Sep 20 00:27:39 build-essential doesnt have any library stuff Sep 20 00:27:40 then you can install random stupid packages in that Sep 20 00:28:35 lindi-: again, there is no GSM/WCDMA here. Sep 20 00:28:54 luke-jr: You can plugin 3G module to FR USB Sep 20 00:29:58 SpeedEvil: was just going to say the same. I regularly do it when I need to upload photos from a forest :) Sep 20 00:30:26 SpeedEvil: what good will that do without 3G? Sep 20 00:30:39 luke-jr: the usb module does 3g Sep 20 00:30:50 lindi-: what good is that without 3G?? Sep 20 00:31:02 lindi-, i find it shocking at how heavyweight many apps have gotten Sep 20 00:31:04 luke-jr: sorry I don't understand Sep 20 00:31:15 lindi-: 3G radios are useless without 3G towers Sep 20 00:31:16 luke-jr: you plugin your local standard USB-cellmo Sep 20 00:31:23 lindi-: everything here is CDMA Sep 20 00:31:25 Or USB-satmo Sep 20 00:31:56 luke-jr: so how does n900 work? Sep 20 00:32:03 lindi-: it doesn't really Sep 20 00:32:12 luke-jr: eh? Sep 20 00:32:22 lindi-: Works fine. Sep 20 00:32:27 lindi-: I got someone in KC to ship me a T-Mobile SIM Sep 20 00:32:33 once in a while I get a signal Sep 20 00:32:39 like at home -.- Sep 20 00:32:41 where I don't need it Sep 20 00:32:45 lindi-: My major annoyance witht the n900 after 10 months is that there is only one stylus. Sep 20 00:33:06 luke-jr: so you are not buying freerunner because your area does not have good gsm coverage? Sep 20 00:33:23 luke-jr: but you are happily using n900 even though it suffers from the same problem? sorry but this does not compute :P Sep 20 00:33:24 lindi-: that's one reason. I also have no use for a phone. Sep 20 00:33:40 lindi-: I didn't pay for N900. Sep 20 00:33:49 lindi-: I would gladly take and play with a FR at no cost. Sep 20 00:34:07 luke-jr: so stop using n900 and you don't need to use that non-free software :) Sep 20 00:34:45 lindi-: Nokia sent it to me so I would do development for it presumably, so I will do that. Sep 20 00:34:57 since it's non-free, the development will be aimed to making it useful with free software Sep 20 00:34:58 :p Sep 20 00:34:58 luke-jr: it sounds odd that you then complain that it has non-free stuff Sep 20 00:35:16 lindi-: why? Sep 20 00:35:24 that's one reason I wouldn't buy it Sep 20 00:36:01 your situation is way too complex sorry :) Sep 20 00:36:04 lol Sep 20 00:36:31 I got $800 waiting for the first company/anyone to produce a free handheld that fits my requirements :P Sep 20 00:36:44 I can only see that you willingly use non-free software even if you didn't need to Sep 20 00:36:57 $800 for a non-mass-market device is regrettably small. Sep 20 00:37:14 * SpeedEvil wishes the economics weren't this way. Sep 20 00:37:21 you could get several freerunner with that Sep 20 00:38:16 lindi-: FreeRunner doesn't meet any of my requirements Sep 20 00:39:45 luke-jr: one would be CDMA? Sep 20 00:41:44 Doe any of you happen to know the creators of Dwaerf Fortress personally (even if just online) ?: Sep 20 00:41:46 ? Sep 20 00:43:29 lindi-: depends Sep 20 00:44:05 a sane place to put a USB modem would work... Sep 20 00:44:47 (sane as in, it won't break in my pocket) Sep 20 00:45:40 heck, MiFi could work Sep 20 00:46:00 the bigger issues are freedom and keyboard reallt Sep 20 00:46:03 N900 kb SUCKS Sep 20 00:46:25 I disagree somewhat. Sep 20 00:46:25 rright Sep 20 00:46:29 I'mup to about 30wpm Sep 20 00:47:12 hm, does the N900 not ring out loud when connected to a bt headset? Sep 20 00:48:07 30wpm is crap Sep 20 00:48:08 TiagoTiago: probably not Sep 20 00:49:04 my N73 did, it was quite handy not having to keep the earpiece in my ear but not having to waste time connecting it when a call came Sep 20 00:50:24 though from a UI design and usability POV that probably should be a settings option, to either have always speakers-ringtone, or have ringtone via headset only (if attached), or first have n seconds via headset, then switch to speaker Sep 20 00:51:05 indeed Sep 20 00:51:14 or both, obviously (speaker and headset, concurrently) Sep 20 00:52:55 ok, i tested now and at least with Skype calls it does ring on both, i dunno why i didn't heard anything but still got a missed call notice.... Sep 20 00:52:58 e.g when connecting N900 to home stereo, to play music for the party from mediaplayer, I'd not be amused to have screen clicks and ringtones and sms notifcations and whatnot via stereo @ 110dBm :-P Sep 20 00:53:27 lol Sep 20 00:53:28 :) Sep 20 00:54:43 with lack of additional profiles that is indeed a problem Sep 20 01:00:08 I made a few profiles for that, one of my profiles is called "music source" Sep 20 01:01:24 DocScrutinizer, at the other end of ths spectrum, when you have headset plugged in whilst you are in church/hospital/library/any place quiet - you expect your device to stay quiet Sep 20 01:01:39 yep Sep 20 01:02:18 but you'd need a special profile for that anyway, independently of any connected headset, no? Sep 20 01:02:41 when I plug in headphones doesnt all sound go through there? Sep 20 01:02:55 * luke-jr would really like a hardware switch to disconnect the speakers :P Sep 20 01:03:06 usually yes. Though TiagoTiago just claimed skype doesn't Sep 20 01:03:06 trusting software just doesn't jive well with me Sep 20 01:03:14 unless the kernel could enforce it Sep 20 01:03:25 luke-jr, surprisingly I find myself agreeing Sep 20 01:03:31 on desktop Sep 20 01:03:38 i generally use the hardware volume/power Sep 20 01:05:34 I'd like a better way to access different particular volume settings, like adjusting ringtone volume easily, and music volume, and screen click volume, and kbd click, and sms notification... etc... Sep 20 01:06:02 DocScrutinizer: DOCZ! Sep 20 01:06:03 a dedicated volume slider for each single app Sep 20 01:06:12 raster ;-D Sep 20 01:06:15 you mean some mechanism for each app to register its audo requirements and allow some sort of introspection :p Sep 20 01:06:21 audio Sep 20 01:06:22 DocScrutinizer: how goes? Sep 20 01:06:38 system and key and screen clicks don't even got sliders for volume control, just e3 settings, mute, barelly hearable and full Sep 20 01:06:41 always fighting uphill :-) Sep 20 01:06:51 how's you? Sep 20 01:07:01 DocScrutinizer: fighting many things Sep 20 01:07:09 from bugs though to non-code things Sep 20 01:07:12 but its moving along Sep 20 01:07:18 * lcuk fights nothing today Sep 20 01:07:39 who here hates that maemo is moviong to meego and really liked things debian based Sep 20 01:07:52 or would love a deb/ubuntu(like) based os? Sep 20 01:08:08 just curious how much people are attached to/ like the deb way? Sep 20 01:08:12 who says we can't submit debs to all meego and use em anyway? Sep 20 01:08:14 lcuk: what I mean is a separate softvol for each app. Easily done via ALSA when only the app knows how to use other audio device than just 'default' Sep 20 01:08:17 errr patches Sep 20 01:08:22 raster: I'm attached to the Gentoo way. Sep 20 01:08:40 raster, it could be worse you know Sep 20 01:08:46 install-shield was an option Sep 20 01:08:50 lcuk: well as meego will be arpm based.. i dont see that they will happily support 2 packaging systems... no? Sep 20 01:08:59 its easy Sep 20 01:09:03 debian/ is just a folder Sep 20 01:09:06 rpm is just a spec file Sep 20 01:09:10 ... Sep 20 01:09:12 luke-jr: yeah. but thats just not feasible. so u can stay there :) Sep 20 01:09:16 both can happily coexist as long as maintainers can handle them Sep 20 01:09:29 lcuk: well not from a packaging/dev point of view Sep 20 01:09:32 .sis is the next one i expect to hear about especially for qt apps Sep 20 01:09:33 as an end-user pov Sep 20 01:09:35 eg Sep 20 01:09:40 if u were deb/ubuntu based Sep 20 01:09:47 end user shouldnt care a damn about packaging format Sep 20 01:09:48 u could instantly bget access to the whole arm deb/ubuntu repos Sep 20 01:09:54 and just apt-get install anything already there Sep 20 01:09:54 can the two formats be converted to the other without loosing information? Sep 20 01:09:55 raster: uh no Sep 20 01:09:58 which is quite a lot of stuff Sep 20 01:10:03 raster, i dont have that now Sep 20 01:10:03 raster: deb/ubuntu repos won't work on Maemo Sep 20 01:10:11 luke-jr: i know Sep 20 01:10:12 i have access to the set of packages in $distro Sep 20 01:10:17 but they do work on mer Sep 20 01:10:18 so on archlinux i have theirs Sep 20 01:10:19 for example Sep 20 01:10:19 :) Sep 20 01:10:21 ... Sep 20 01:10:24 and on maemo this set Sep 20 01:10:30 and mint linux.. Sep 20 01:10:54 raster, for backend libs and stuff sure Sep 20 01:11:06 but show me desktop UI apps that happily work Sep 20 01:11:13 lcuk: sure Sep 20 01:11:15 from desktop down to handheld Sep 20 01:11:17 just talking of back-end Sep 20 01:11:35 users dont install backend stuff Sep 20 01:11:36 eg u can get the whole host of libs and back-end utils for free - i guess, with the core os Sep 20 01:11:42 users go to a nice app manager and click things Sep 20 01:11:52 sure - to make gui apps work on such small limited screens generally requires specific work to make them Sep 20 01:11:59 and dont care if it comes inside an underwater sharkproof box Sep 20 01:12:11 BUT they can use all the back-ends there already Sep 20 01:12:31 sure Sep 20 01:12:38 i did same for opensoundcontrol library Sep 20 01:12:44 vs having to re-package them themselves Sep 20 01:12:45 i grabbed the debian lib Sep 20 01:12:55 OpenOffice works in the N9pp with the interface unchanged (somtimes itms too tight though) Sep 20 01:12:56 and submitted it without modification to maemo autobuilder Sep 20 01:13:04 then used it in onedotzero app Sep 20 01:13:06 was simple Sep 20 01:13:11 sure Sep 20 01:13:19 but if u can skip that step and "just use" Sep 20 01:13:29 users couldnt just use Sep 20 01:13:37 maemo has its problems in having to add extras-devel to get any decent set of extra libs etc. Sep 20 01:13:37 :) Sep 20 01:13:47 so does * distro Sep 20 01:14:10 afaik, debian stable doesn't include everything Sep 20 01:14:17 true Sep 20 01:14:27 was more thinking like mer Sep 20 01:14:28 opensoundcontrol??? WTF is that? Sep 20 01:14:31 ubuntu i guess Sep 20 01:14:34 brb Sep 20 01:14:41 mer would need hammering for stability Sep 20 01:14:52 make it like the wild west and its not good Sep 20 01:15:33 DocScrutinizer, network protocol for connecting midi instruments and computer control equipment Sep 20 01:15:38 bak Sep 20 01:15:44 aah ok, thanks Sep 20 01:15:46 lcuk: sure. now if u had a b ase like mer Sep 20 01:16:00 but a stable solid kernel, power management middle layer, telephony and ui Sep 20 01:16:08 that actuallyt works a charm on small screens Sep 20 01:16:09 yeah i know Sep 20 01:16:24 and it was still x11 based (ie x11, wm, compositor, toolkits etc.) Sep 20 01:16:40 vs building a whole new os with new paakcages (meego) etc.? Sep 20 01:16:46 is that more attractive? Sep 20 01:16:48 its not Sep 20 01:16:54 (assuming it also ships on real devices) Sep 20 01:17:22 lcuk: so basically u dont care about the extra packages and tools. Sep 20 01:17:35 i like anyone cares Sep 20 01:17:49 ? Sep 20 01:17:49 but if the process when i come to need a library is similar to how it was before Sep 20 01:17:54 then it doesnt really matter Sep 20 01:18:14 if its hugely difficult there will be problems Sep 20 01:18:20 sure Sep 20 01:18:27 as such rpm is a better pkg format Sep 20 01:18:37 and spec files are by far better organised and easier to deal with than deb Sep 20 01:18:39 i do say Sep 20 01:18:41 hear hear Sep 20 01:18:43 not really Sep 20 01:18:53 tho deb has the upper hand in simply the mointain of stuff already packaged Sep 20 01:19:19 duh? Sep 20 01:19:40 raster, i have been somewhat above packaging recently tho Sep 20 01:19:44 under perfect external conditions what's the smallest error the N900's GPS can achieve? Sep 20 01:19:54 prefer to point at git repository tags and branches Sep 20 01:19:58 and say "Build that" Sep 20 01:20:02 TiagoTiago: 0mm Sep 20 01:20:02 whatever packager it has Sep 20 01:20:12 lcuk: sure. i am assuming that for now, the "i have to wrtie an app" work is all equal and the same Sep 20 01:20:27 its just the barrier of entry to get to that stage Sep 20 01:20:36 TiagoTiago: 10cm Sep 20 01:20:38 ands the breadth of stuff available to that stage to work with Sep 20 01:20:41 TiagoTiago: or so. Sep 20 01:20:43 (tools, libs etc.) Sep 20 01:20:47 TiagoTiago: averaging for a week Sep 20 01:20:58 say that to qt - they need to ensure packages are packagable in deb rpm SMI sis and any other format they support Sep 20 01:21:01 that perfect? i though the GPS system as a whole was not capable of a precision of less than a few centimeters Sep 20 01:21:12 http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_GPS Sep 20 01:21:16 10 sounds more likelly Sep 20 01:21:29 50% of points fall within 2.2m Sep 20 01:21:41 a radius of Sep 20 01:21:49 lcuk: i am assuming the toolkits are packaged for the os already - worrying about the job of those doing the app writing Sep 20 01:21:51 TiagoTiago: you asked about the smales possible error: it's zero Sep 20 01:21:56 ie the things that NEED to be re-done for the platform Sep 20 01:22:15 the small-screen uis and all the gazillions of utils people write and throw into things like appstores/marketplaces Sep 20 01:22:19 what would be necessary to get zero error? Sep 20 01:22:27 ti a miracle Sep 20 01:22:30 raster, its an eternal frustration to people about packaging Sep 20 01:22:33 TiagoTiago: luck Sep 20 01:22:33 TiagoTiago: what do you mean by that Sep 20 01:22:34 TiagoTiago: a miracle Sep 20 01:22:36 lol Sep 20 01:22:37 from any os Sep 20 01:23:05 You can get substantially lower error if you can get the per-sat reception details out of the GPS. The n900 GPS can't - or won't - do this. Sep 20 01:23:22 lcuk: i know. i'm really asking - what is the value of the core os to you beyond it simply bnooting and working Sep 20 01:23:44 if it is closed, or built ion tarballs from slackware or even hand-build cramfs read-only fs's Sep 20 01:23:48 does it matter to you? Sep 20 01:23:54 i mean the distance between the true coordinates and the coordinate reported being less than what can be measured wigthout lab equipament, therefore zero Sep 20 01:24:00 at what point does the "how good is your base tech" top being relevant to you? Sep 20 01:24:15 TiagoTiago: I can measure 1mm without lab equipment. Sep 20 01:24:36 I diddn't realise how good commercial gyros had gotten. Sep 20 01:24:38 so less than a milimeter Sep 20 01:24:45 raster, i wrote liqbase for one reason, to ensure i had a solid open reliable core system. that should answer your question. Sep 20 01:25:00 ~25*25mm gyro will give you .5 degree/sqrt(hr) random walk. Sep 20 01:25:09 (though it is $900 now) Sep 20 01:25:11 the "base" part is the important bit ;) Sep 20 01:25:49 raster, and regarding the rest Sep 20 01:26:01 why randomness in things like accelerometers and gyrometers don't average too zero even when unbiased? Sep 20 01:26:17 TiagoTiago: because they don't know where zero is. Sep 20 01:26:34 lol Sep 20 01:26:35 TiagoTiago: you probably want to know what error is introduced by GPS system from technical / design level Sep 20 01:26:38 TiagoTiago: if you flip a coin a million times, you will not get 500K heads - even with an unbiased coin. Sep 20 01:27:25 of course it matters, meego base is as open as it can be, its very similar to maemo at that level just organised a bit differently Sep 20 01:27:30 but the more tries you do the closer it gets, no? Sep 20 01:27:51 TiagoTiago: yes Sep 20 01:27:51 TiagoTiago: And if you then do another million flips, the chances that you get another error in the same direction is just as high as you get an error that cancels. Sep 20 01:27:53 In short - no. Sep 20 01:29:42 raster, you are also aware I have spent the last year working on maemo application framework stuff and apart from the odd gremace about closed things generally dont have issues Sep 20 01:29:44 it's kinda annoying how randomness is counterintuive Sep 20 01:29:54 TiagoTiago: systematic error of GPS is probably around a few mm Sep 20 01:30:36 depending on the specific technical measures the receivers use Sep 20 01:30:39 lcuk: sure - so you made your own protability layer Sep 20 01:30:44 and you package that and be done with it Sep 20 01:30:44 :) Sep 20 01:31:06 does the GPS reports the position of the chip or the center of the device? Sep 20 01:31:14 TiagoTiago: the antenna Sep 20 01:31:30 TiagoTiago: which is close to the on/off Sep 20 01:31:38 hm Sep 20 01:31:48 raster, not quite portability, but it went along with my thinking Sep 20 01:31:57 TiagoTiago: obviously the pos of the antenna Sep 20 01:32:16 lcuk: well your own "make sure i have the api's, facilities etc. there and this lib takes care of that" Sep 20 01:32:29 mm accuracy w gps? wont that need a mil version? Sep 20 01:32:38 yup, same as any library Sep 20 01:32:53 nox-: sure Sep 20 01:32:58 hm, ah, right, it can't know which way the device is rotated in order to calculate the correct offset Sep 20 01:33:22 nox-: plus a reference, and special means in receiver to compare phase of carier signal etc Sep 20 01:33:32 :) Sep 20 01:34:01 nox-: no. Sep 20 01:34:21 nox-: It needs an expensive reciever with typically another expensive reciever nearby Sep 20 01:34:35 ah yeah differential gps, ok Sep 20 01:35:30 that's what I meant by reference Sep 20 01:35:31 omg painful video from NW :( Sep 20 01:35:52 ? Sep 20 01:36:11 what is "NW"? Sep 20 01:40:55 TiagoTiago, nokia world Sep 20 01:41:29 * GeneralAntilles just reached for the stupid iPhone to test an application for MWKN. Sep 20 01:41:49 GeneralAntilles, why is it stupid? Sep 20 01:42:01 Because it's not particularly useful for me. Sep 20 01:42:17 Doesn't read books well, doesn't multitask, doesn't handle IRC well. Sep 20 01:42:40 push folks to put meego on it :) Sep 20 01:42:46 Ha Sep 20 01:42:49 Linux isn't on it. Sep 20 01:43:01 You think they'll be able to get MeeGo on it without that? Sep 20 01:43:08 hmm, have seen iphones with tux? Sep 20 01:43:23 1st and 2nd generation, maybe. Sep 20 01:43:26 Not anything afterwards. Sep 20 01:44:10 hmm Sep 20 01:44:28 http://www.idroidproject.org/wiki/Main_Page Sep 20 01:44:30 android on 3g somewhere i think, so that means theres a kernel and stuff Sep 20 01:44:38 yeah :) Sep 20 01:44:48 lcuk, 3G is second generation. Sep 20 01:44:57 so 3g is 2g Sep 20 01:44:58 ? Sep 20 01:45:08 3G is the iPhone 1 with 3G data. Sep 20 01:45:22 iPhone, iPhone 3G, iPhone 3G S, iPhone 4 Sep 20 01:45:35 meh Sep 20 01:45:42 i just want to see like for like really Sep 20 01:45:55 arent you confusing 3G with G3? Sep 20 01:46:34 TiagoTiago, 3rd generation or generation 3. Sep 20 01:46:39 Apple's created the confusion. Sep 20 01:47:04 iPods were always 1G/2G/3G before the iPhone 3G was ever a prototype. Sep 20 01:48:18 openiboot Sep 20 01:48:43 regarding cell phone technology it's usually the nimber then the word generation, while for devices itm's the word generation and then the number; at least that is how it looks like for me Sep 20 01:49:04 TiagoTiago, wasn't before the iPhone 3G came out. Sep 20 01:49:14 G3 makes me think PowerMac G3. Sep 20 01:50:24 hm Sep 20 01:56:38 is it possible to make the N900 work as a bootable USB OS when pluged into a PC without having to reflash MyDocs? Sep 20 01:56:59 MicroSD? Sep 20 01:57:07 hm Sep 20 01:57:21 TiagoTiago: In principle, you can boot from mydocs Sep 20 01:57:42 with a VFAT layering fs, or a big drive. Sep 20 01:58:14 by default at least its `superfloppy' tho Sep 20 01:58:57 isn't it marked as a non-bootable partition? Sep 20 01:59:03 hmm Sep 20 01:59:04 dunno Sep 20 01:59:15 it doesnt even have a partition table... Sep 20 01:59:24 (thats what superfloppy means) Sep 20 01:59:31 hm Sep 20 02:00:17 is that bootable with most motherboards? Sep 20 02:00:29 dunno Sep 20 02:00:39 * nox- would doubt Sep 20 02:02:21 so microsd sounds better indeed Sep 20 02:02:56 indeed Sep 20 02:08:32 hey raster - i was playing with liq* stuff on x86 and was blown away by speedups, on my laptop i ran little liqflow thingy and instead of its usual 200 particles (it reasonably supports upto about 1000) on the x86 it happily ran 25000 and was still not slow at 50k particles Sep 20 02:08:36 was awesome :D Sep 20 02:08:54 heh Sep 20 02:09:21 what was the clock? Sep 20 02:10:01 800mhz first, but I changed from its usual powersave mode to performance of 1.87ghz for the 50k test Sep 20 02:10:39 and what clock was the N900 when you tested the limits? Sep 20 02:12:11 TiagoTiago_, liqflow has run at fullspeed on the n900 all along, i am not sure what clock it sits on Sep 20 02:12:27 i noticed the other day it was using 20pc cpu for doing something Sep 20 02:12:35 i mena, was it overclocked or stock? Sep 20 02:12:39 have a look yourself, just install it and tell me Sep 20 02:12:55 TiagoTiago_, very stock Sep 20 02:13:14 TiagoTiago_, but i know the cpu slows itself down Sep 20 02:13:18 so at most 600MHz, is 200MHz enough to explain the difference? Sep 20 02:13:23 i just dont know how to know what its in Sep 20 02:14:19 TiagoTiago_, just the way it is Sep 20 02:14:35 what do you mena? Sep 20 02:14:50 1000 on device runs well Sep 20 02:14:57 25k doesnt Sep 20 02:15:12 thats all i know :P Sep 20 02:15:38 what was the ram of the x86 machine? Sep 20 02:15:38 i can bring the laptop to its knees tho :P Sep 20 02:15:44 heh Sep 20 02:15:46 its ok i think i noticed Sep 20 02:15:52 different Sep 20 02:15:55 difference * Sep 20 02:16:50 on device i can make longer strokes easier Sep 20 02:16:51 ;) Sep 20 02:17:00 so it degrades quicker Sep 20 02:17:12 (more strokes == more work) Sep 20 02:18:11 it isn't the same as a single stroke with the same lenght as the sum of the length of multiple strokes? Sep 20 02:18:53 no its less related Sep 20 02:18:59 but on a small display Sep 20 02:19:09 i can move finger around quicker and get strokes all over Sep 20 02:19:10 why? Sep 20 02:19:19 cos the nobble on this laptop suz Sep 20 02:19:20 sux Sep 20 02:19:31 the what? Sep 20 02:19:53 nobble/nipple/mouse thing Sep 20 02:19:59 between GHB keys Sep 20 02:20:13 ah, the nub mouse Sep 20 02:20:37 GHB? Sep 20 02:20:56 (yes, of course that's what will get my attention) Sep 20 02:21:46 ieatlint, lenovo nub mouse thingy in the middle of the GHB keys Sep 20 02:22:12 haha, the trackpoint Sep 20 02:22:30 but why a single long stroke with the length equal to the sum of the lengths of multiple strokes doesn't consume as much processing power as the multiple strokes? Sep 20 02:22:54 is that what it's callled? i call it a nub mouse, or mouse nub Sep 20 02:23:03 i'm just laughing because GHB is a date-rape drug Sep 20 02:23:09 lol Sep 20 02:23:13 yeah, they called it the trackpoint Sep 20 02:23:38 the N900 could use one Sep 20 02:23:46 true Sep 20 02:24:22 somehow i think trying to work a mouse on it would just be awkward Sep 20 02:24:49 if it was a 5way thingy it [could work Sep 20 02:24:58 trackballs work i will say Sep 20 02:25:02 * lcuk has other ideas for n900 mice :P Sep 20 02:25:08 TiagoTiago_, install liqflow Sep 20 02:25:48 perhaps it could be a little glass nub in the right side (where it would become the bottom while in portrait mode), and since the touch funcitonality has pressure sensitivity it would allow for 5way functionality Sep 20 02:29:26 TiagoTiago_, i shall have to muck around and get a full set of benchies Sep 20 02:29:38 aight Sep 20 02:30:19 * lcuk likes liqflow on live wallpaper now Sep 20 02:30:29 heh Sep 20 02:30:38 does it still record strokes? Sep 20 02:30:43 apart from a couple of bugs it seems to be good Sep 20 02:30:49 it works exactly as before Sep 20 02:30:58 best on the single livewp across all Sep 20 02:31:23 doesn't it get polluted with all the accumulated strokes? Sep 20 02:32:17 yes but it only uses the most recent 4 strokes for calculation Sep 20 02:32:28 what happens to the old strokes? Sep 20 02:32:29 the options dialog and settings are pending Sep 20 02:32:31 trackpoint, trackball, bah. Make battery cover a touchpad! Sep 20 02:32:38 theyy are part of a sketch Sep 20 02:33:10 * lcuk has been playing with other liq* things on livewp Sep 20 02:33:16 do the particles colide with each other,. or are replled by each other? Sep 20 02:33:19 and replace the proximity sensor by a sensor of an IR optical mouse Sep 20 02:33:43 no way DocScrutinizer Sep 20 02:33:44 an optical trackball, interesting idea Sep 20 02:33:50 you dont put it face down Sep 20 02:33:59 add mouse laser on backside along with other camera stuff Sep 20 02:34:08 lcuk: eh? Sep 20 02:34:10 use nice touchscreen for full mouse Sep 20 02:34:13 face down? Sep 20 02:34:13 a time of flight camera would rock Sep 20 02:34:25 and replace the proximity sensor by a sensor of an IR optical mouse Sep 20 02:34:34 proximity sensor is on the face Sep 20 02:34:39 TiagoTiago_ got it onstantly Sep 20 02:34:40 bbl Sep 20 02:35:02 got that? Sep 20 02:35:03 cya Sep 20 02:35:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVqdfFdL3Q Sep 20 02:35:17 DocScrutinizer, ^ Sep 20 02:35:58 then use the screenspace where palm is to fill with other modules, clock and cpu stats from main computer etc Sep 20 02:36:16 z4chh wrote a liq* remote stats gathering tool last year :) Sep 20 02:36:35 lcuk: completely different thing than what I'm talking bout Sep 20 02:37:18 you are wanting a finger nub? Sep 20 02:38:17 lcuk: neat Sep 20 02:38:17 I'm talking about an optical trackball Sep 20 02:38:29 Glue tiny lens to frontcam Sep 20 02:38:31 (thanks for the nice term, TiagoTiago_ :-) Sep 20 02:38:38 and side-illuminate Sep 20 02:38:40 :) Sep 20 02:38:58 SpeedEvil: yo Sep 20 02:39:35 but the rear side fullsize touchpad is a much nicer idea yet Sep 20 02:40:01 I want rear e-ink Sep 20 02:40:38 polaroid printer Sep 20 02:40:47 would be awesome Sep 20 02:41:31 you could make the screen "transparent" by displaying your fingers positions on the touchpad by images of fingers Sep 20 02:42:27 and you can scroll and everything while holding the device like you do usually while typing on hw kbd Sep 20 02:42:38 lcuk: Have you investigated if you can get adequate position information from a painted surface? Sep 20 02:42:45 can the maincamera tbe used to track motion like that? Sep 20 02:42:54 lcuk: Like you can use an optical mouse on white paper Sep 20 02:43:07 TiagoTiago_: nope, not enough fisheye Sep 20 02:43:31 what it sees is too out of focus to track features? Sep 20 02:43:39 TiagoTiago: yes Sep 20 02:43:43 TiagoTiago: also - no light Sep 20 02:43:54 TiagoTiago: the flashlight LED can't go dim enough Sep 20 02:43:56 use the flash or the recording led Sep 20 02:44:01 oh Sep 20 02:44:07 it gets too overexposed? Sep 20 02:44:29 the cam can't detect touches to the cover surface Sep 20 02:44:30 yes Sep 20 02:44:46 to Sep 20 02:44:55 SpeedEvil, Sep 20 02:45:03 DocScrutinizer: I mean if you added a lens system to bring the surface into focus Sep 20 02:45:09 the video there is not based on mouse Sep 20 02:45:17 umm? Sep 20 02:45:18 its based on the facecamera and lights above Sep 20 02:45:24 yes, I know Sep 20 02:45:26 but replacing the battery cover by a capacitive touchpad should be relatively feasible Sep 20 02:45:48 i doubt i could focus the face camera whenever i looked it didnt appear to show anything usable Sep 20 02:45:56 (open lence and show preview with torch on) Sep 20 02:45:56 lcuk: I was meaning that optical mice use a similar idea, but track on small variations on brightness. Sep 20 02:46:02 lens * Sep 20 02:46:16 lcuk: I was meaning the face camera Sep 20 02:46:20 focus main camera * Sep 20 02:46:21 but from normal ceiling Sep 20 02:46:31 ahh no not really Sep 20 02:46:56 the image is awesomely noisey Sep 20 02:47:12 * lcuk is getting tired Sep 20 02:48:08 testing with Fcamera and Livefocus keepign the LED lit it seems it could work, even if the image is out of focus, you just need the "mousepad to not be too plain Sep 20 02:48:42 * DocScrutinizer is considering a POC setup by strapping two N900 together, back to back, and use the downside unit's touchscreen to move the upside unit's 'cursor' Sep 20 02:49:05 TiagoTiago_, cool Sep 20 02:50:06 TiagoTiago_, so thats facing the camera down on a surface Sep 20 02:50:12 yep Sep 20 02:50:15 :) Sep 20 02:50:46 so some algorithm to use the patterns could theoretically bring real mouse utility Sep 20 02:50:49 eith a patterned surface i can clearly see the blobs of light and dark moving Sep 20 02:50:53 with* Sep 20 02:51:09 TiagoTiago: the other problem is that the fps is too low Sep 20 02:51:16 SpeedEvil, not really Sep 20 02:51:28 TiagoTiago: mouse cams go at 1500fps Sep 20 02:51:33 as a portable thing to save me carrying mouse as well Sep 20 02:51:37 it would be good Sep 20 02:51:40 hmm Sep 20 02:51:52 You can add the accel input too Sep 20 02:51:58 sure Sep 20 02:52:10 Though I question how much that'd help. Sep 20 02:52:18 GPS for really big movements. :) Sep 20 02:52:19 only to know its moving Sep 20 02:52:20 SpeedEvil: mice also have a resolution of 256 pixel Sep 20 02:52:28 True Sep 20 02:52:38 fuck Sep 20 02:52:45 how did i close a chan :S Sep 20 02:53:04 ctrl-w? Sep 20 02:53:10 something like a fasffourier thingy to detect how out of focus the iamge actually is could be used to detect when you're lifiting it frmt he surface Sep 20 02:53:17 so they have a microscopic (literally) view area and this minimal spot needs to be scanned faster than you move "out of area" Sep 20 02:53:26 or is there a distance detrector for thee autofocus? Sep 20 02:53:45 TiagoTiago_, leave focus at macro minimum Sep 20 02:53:45 TiagoTiago: IT CAN focus down to 4cm or so Sep 20 02:54:05 Fcamera calls the lowest focus 5 centimeters Sep 20 02:54:07 and just see what sort of processing we can do on the patterns Sep 20 02:54:18 to see feasibility Sep 20 02:54:21 then catch edge cases Sep 20 02:54:24 I'm not sure if it'll be much more focussed if you set it to 5cm than infinity Sep 20 02:54:25 using accel and other bits Sep 20 02:54:27 I suspect not Sep 20 02:54:38 it will be lightdark areas as said Sep 20 02:54:51 gross features of the surface Sep 20 02:54:57 rather than fine woodgrain Sep 20 02:55:30 it might only work on certain surfaces like old mice did, but its a different usecase to play with Sep 20 02:55:35 you probably need to compoesante for the uncentered "vigneting" caused by the LED being closer to one side thant he other Sep 20 02:55:50 compensate* Sep 20 02:56:14 though depending ont he alroithm used in processing the image it might not matter Sep 20 02:56:42 algorithm* Sep 20 02:56:57 tired fingers* Sep 20 02:57:04 heh Sep 20 02:57:13 tired doc* Sep 20 02:58:30 I'd sugest to use privacy indicator (orange LED) actually, for illumination. Rather than white monsters Sep 20 02:58:47 red led isnt it Sep 20 02:59:05 and yeah i agree if its sensitive Sep 20 02:59:27 i couldn't get it to lproduce enough light to make thigns visible when the camera is agaisnt the surface Sep 20 02:59:42 blast it with white light then Sep 20 02:59:47 brute force approach lol Sep 20 02:59:48 it's actually an orange LED, at least it's more shortwave than usual red ones Sep 20 02:59:57 looks REd to me **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Sep 20 02:59:57 2010