**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Oct 13 02:59:57 2010
Oct 13 03:01:22 <b-man`> hey johnx :)
Oct 13 03:01:29 <johnx> hey :D
Oct 13 03:01:35 <johnx> what are you hacking on these days?
Oct 13 03:02:07 <b-man`> trying to get meego's sgx stuff running on debian on my N900 :)
Oct 13 03:02:24 <johnx> fun fun :)
Oct 13 03:02:30 <b-man`> btw i turned 18 yesterday :)
Oct 13 03:02:35 <johnx> congrats
Oct 13 03:03:05 <b-man`> this week is full of signing paperwork lol
Oct 13 03:03:40 <b-man`> so what have you been up to? :)
Oct 13 03:04:32 <johnx> hacking on meego on pandora a bit
Oct 13 03:04:44 <johnx> right now I'm putting up my own OBS though
Oct 13 03:04:59 <b-man`> awesome - how well is it running?
Oct 13 03:06:03 <johnx> It runs ok with the pandora 2.6.27 (28?) kernel, but there are font rendering issues
Oct 13 03:06:49 <b-man`> hmm
Oct 13 03:06:50 <johnx> meego really targets 2.6.35, so I'm trying to get the N900 SGX kernel drivers patched in
Oct 13 03:08:06 <johnx> it's a bit out of my depth, so the progress is pretty slow :|
Oct 13 03:08:42 <b-man`> i've been having trouble getting udev to recognise the internal and external memory from within debian on 2.6.28/2.6.35
Oct 13 03:09:08 <b-man`> plus bme is having issues
Oct 13 03:09:13 <johnx> which debian? squeeze? unstable?
Oct 13 03:09:21 <b-man`> squeeze
Oct 13 03:09:46 <johnx> is N900 using HAL? is squeeze still using HAL, or did it finishing transitioning away?
Oct 13 03:10:30 <johnx> s/N900/N900 Maemo 5/
Oct 13 03:10:31 <infobot> johnx meant: is N900 Maemo 5 using HAL? is squeeze still using HAL, or did it finishing transitioning away?
Oct 13 03:10:36 <b-man`> it's using upower/policykit
Oct 13 03:10:43 <b-man`> same stuff as meego
Oct 13 03:10:50 <johnx> ah, I meant for the memory cards
Oct 13 03:11:03 <b-man`> no hal
Oct 13 03:11:11 <johnx> well, that's lucky at least :)
Oct 13 03:11:59 <b-man`> i'm thinking of using upower/policykit from meego instead to see if it fixes the problem
Oct 13 03:12:32 <b-man`> and if that does not work, i'll have to live with hal :)
Oct 13 03:13:15 <johnx> everyone's dropping it though. doesn't really seem like a good long term option ...
Oct 13 03:13:22 <b-man`> yeah
Oct 13 03:13:41 <b-man`> which is why i'm trying my best to avoid it ;)
Oct 13 03:15:19 <johnx> what are you using for a desktop?
Oct 13 03:15:33 <b-man`> Toshiba Satellite
Oct 13 03:15:40 <johnx> I mean in debian :P
Oct 13 03:15:53 <b-man`> oh lol, gnome :)
Oct 13 03:16:17 <johnx> gah. isn't that like painful?
Oct 13 03:16:18 <b-man`> i'm thinking of adopting meego's ux though
Oct 13 03:16:25 <b-man`> yes
Oct 13 03:16:29 <johnx> why not just come over to meego?
Oct 13 03:17:01 <b-man`> dunno, i just feel compelled to do things myself :)
Oct 13 03:17:07 <johnx> fair enough
Oct 13 03:17:23 <johnx> that's how you learn after all :)
Oct 13 03:17:34 <b-man`> indeed :)
Oct 13 03:18:23 <b-man`> anyways, g2g - need to go to bed as i have school tomorrow, c ya johnx
Oct 13 03:18:34 <johnx> enjoy :)
Oct 13 03:18:36 <johnx> 'night
Oct 13 03:39:18 <e1ioan> epage, are you around here?
Oct 13 03:52:56 <Jaizuke> hi
Oct 13 04:05:33 <andrewfblack> Anyone ever able to get internet connect from another phone on N900?
Oct 13 04:19:35 <ludens> andrewfblack: you mean using mobile-hotspot?
Oct 13 04:19:57 <ludens> never tried it
Oct 13 04:20:08 <ludens> but should work
Oct 13 04:20:20 <ludens> that or bluetooth
Oct 13 04:22:31 <andrewfblack> ludens: was trying the other way to get internet to my N900
Oct 13 04:23:04 <andrewfblack> N900 wont connect to work network and no cell service on it so wanted to connect to my blackberry
Oct 13 04:24:04 <ludens> oh i see
Oct 13 04:24:35 <ludens> no idea but shouldnt it be able to act as a bluetooth modem
Oct 13 04:30:23 <Jaizuke> I dont think the blackberry method would work, blackberry is too secure you can't even tether via bluetooth to alaptop
Oct 13 05:37:26 <openstandards> should the n900 report a sd card being corrupt if its been formatted to ext3
Oct 13 05:38:02 <Stskeeps> yes
Oct 13 05:38:53 <openstandards> ok, cheers i was thinking i had done something wrong
Oct 13 05:39:31 <openstandards> the linux support for it is half baked :(
Oct 13 05:40:14 <openstandards> i hope meego is better
Oct 13 05:43:17 <wmarone> linux support for what?
Oct 13 05:48:18 <luke-jr_> wmarone: N900 I would assume
Oct 13 05:50:49 <jpinx-eeepc> where does one go to find out what repo has a package - in my case I am looking for screen
Oct 13 05:51:31 <openstandards> well for a while i've been thinking the sd card is messed up just because the gui tells me it can't read it when it can basically
Oct 13 05:51:52 <RobbieThe1st> jpinix: its in the tools repo. Just a second
Oct 13 05:52:24 <RobbieThe1st> http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5
Oct 13 05:53:13 <noodles900> RobbieThe1st: thanks - that's the same link as you gave me yesterday, but it does not specify the line to add to my sources list
Oct 13 05:53:35 <RobbieThe1st> Yes it does.
Oct 13 05:53:42 <RobbieThe1st> Under "Installation"
Oct 13 05:53:48 <luke-jr_> openstandards: at least it didn't try to format it for you ;)
Oct 13 05:54:06 <openstandards> luke-jr, too true :)
Oct 13 05:57:13 <noodles900> RobbieThe1st: thanks - forgive my incompetence - I am used to just working the cli and adding  a simple line to a sources.list ;)
Oct 13 05:57:54 <RobbieThe1st> ...
Oct 13 05:58:01 <RobbieThe1st> It -says- the deb line
Oct 13 05:58:22 <RobbieThe1st> quote: If you prefer to edit configuration files yourself instead of using the Application manager, add these lines to your /etc/apt/sources.list
Oct 13 05:58:28 <RobbieThe1st> # fremantle tools
Oct 13 05:58:33 <RobbieThe1st> deb http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/tools free non-free
Oct 13 05:59:15 <noodles900> RobbieThe1st: yep - got that thenks
Oct 13 05:59:20 <RobbieThe1st> np
Oct 13 05:59:51 <noodles900> it's done, installed and broken :/
Oct 13 05:59:57 <RobbieThe1st> ?
Oct 13 06:00:04 <RobbieThe1st> What's broken?
Oct 13 06:00:29 <noodles900> Setting up screen (4.0.3-0.3osso4+0m5) ...
Oct 13 06:00:29 <noodles900> /var/lib/dpkg/info/screen.postinst: line 23: /usr/sbin/add-shell: not found
Oct 13 06:00:29 <noodles900> install-info(/usr/share/info/screen.info): no file /usr/share/info/dir, retrieving backup file /var/backups/infodir.bak.
Oct 13 06:00:54 <RobbieThe1st> well, does typing "screen" produce an error?
Oct 13 06:01:52 <noodles900> the applicaion appears to work, but what's the file-not-found and using backups all about?
Oct 13 06:02:47 <RobbieThe1st> Ignore it. Most likely whoever made the package didn't do it quite right, or forgot something
Oct 13 06:02:57 <RobbieThe1st> if it -runs-, you can safely ignore most errors
Oct 13 06:03:45 <jpinx-eeepc> eeek :/
Oct 13 06:03:49 <jpinx-eeepc> but ok -- thanks
Oct 13 06:04:02 <RobbieThe1st> Yea, NP
Oct 13 06:04:06 * jpinx-eeepc is used to debain stable -- no errors ;)
Oct 13 06:04:19 <luke-jr_> Debian is a real distro :P
Oct 13 06:04:36 * RobbieThe1st is running Debian Squeeze x64 currently
Oct 13 06:04:46 <luke-jr_> there is no such thing as x64 >_<
Oct 13 06:04:55 * jpinx-eeepc is running squeeze in a chroot in the n900
Oct 13 06:05:06 <RobbieThe1st> x86_64 then, close enough
Oct 13 06:05:09 * luke-jr_ is running Gentoo stable on N900
Oct 13 06:05:20 <jpinx-eeepc> poor luke-jr_  :(
Oct 13 06:05:40 <RobbieThe1st> ^^
Oct 13 06:05:54 <jpinx-eeepc> "Genttoo" and "stable" can not appear in the same sentence without quotes ;)
Oct 13 06:06:01 <luke-jr_> heh
Oct 13 06:06:41 * jpinx-eeepc can't decide whether to learn more meaemo or make maemo more debian ;)
Oct 13 06:07:33 <RobbieThe1st> Well, erm, aside from the hildon-desktop and other packages, I'm not sure whats's different..?
Oct 13 06:07:55 <RobbieThe1st> Sure, BusyBox is the default shell, but that's more a matter of space-saving, and bash is availaible
Oct 13 06:09:19 * noodles900ch has busybox and lxde on the eeepc
Oct 13 06:13:00 <noodles900> Hmm - let's see if I can break screen
Oct 13 06:13:11 <Ljrn900> try  a fork
Oct 13 06:13:38 <RobbieThe1st> screen -dm apptolaunch
Oct 13 06:13:44 <noodles900> heh
Oct 13 06:14:09 * Ljrn900 ponders if anyone has forkbombed N900
Oct 13 06:15:05 <noodles900> RobbieThe1st: this is me in screen in maemo
Oct 13 06:15:07 <noodles900ch> and this is me chrooted into squeeze, in a screen
Oct 13 06:15:17 <RobbieThe1st> :P
Oct 13 06:15:33 <noodles900> has anyone got bitlbee to install on maemo?
Oct 13 06:15:37 <RobbieThe1st> Meh, I haven't made a chroot myself; not sure what it would gain me
Oct 13 06:16:13 <RobbieThe1st> I haven't really run into things that would run under that that won't directly that I could actually use
Oct 13 06:16:18 <noodles900> RobbieThe1st: to be honest the chroot was a quick way for me to ge working on the n900 while I learned a bit abou8t maemo
Oct 13 06:17:00 <RobbieThe1st> Fair enough
Oct 13 06:17:05 <noodles900> Hmm -- no bitlbee in the repos
Oct 13 06:18:00 <RobbieThe1st> I dunno... I wonder if Runescape would run any better on Debian-OpenJDK via a chroot than it does on the current version of IcedTea6 for Maemo...
Oct 13 06:18:30 <noodles900> RobbieThe1st: probably ;)
Oct 13 06:18:54 <RobbieThe1st> ..Why?
Oct 13 06:19:33 <RobbieThe1st> Wouldn't it run worse or something, being as its an extra level of OS between the processor and the app..?
Oct 13 06:21:49 <jpinx-eeepc> the chroot really has no overhead to speak of
Oct 13 06:22:30 <jpinx-eeepc> goddam -- getting lost amongst screens within screens :(
Oct 13 06:22:46 <RobbieThe1st> screen -r 's handy
Oct 13 06:26:17 <noodles900> what's -r do?
Oct 13 06:26:27 <RobbieThe1st> reconnect
Oct 13 06:26:28 <TermanaDesire> jpinx-eeepc: except having to load up the extra libc etc. into memory
Oct 13 06:26:43 <RobbieThe1st> And if there's more than one, it'll list them
Oct 13 06:27:34 <jpinx-eeepc> RobbieThe1st: screen session in the eeepc, contains ssh to n900 screen session.
Oct 13 06:28:04 <jpinx-eeepc> also contains ssh into screen session in chroot in n900 ;)
Oct 13 06:29:00 <jpinx-eeepc> which - just for fun - has ssh tunnelling into a remote box for http proxy
Oct 13 06:29:39 <lcuk> morning #maemo
Oct 13 06:30:12 <RobbieThe1st> Ouch
Oct 13 06:30:57 <jpinx-eeepc> RobbieThe1st: I have to cope with some serious "filtering" byt ISP's here ;)
Oct 13 06:31:28 <RobbieThe1st> It's more the several-layers of screens between it and you
Oct 13 06:31:56 <RobbieThe1st> But yea, I use one of those ssh tunnels myself; I love it.
Oct 13 06:32:15 <jpinx-eeepc> yea - well - the connection is like a dialup anyway - so speed is not an issue
Oct 13 06:33:17 <jpinx-eeepc> and again - I set it up in the chroot for ease, but now I am getting more familiar with maemo, that will go away
Oct 13 06:34:57 <RobbieThe1st> Well, erm, it shouldn't matter - syntax is the same
Oct 13 06:35:12 <RobbieThe1st> You will need the ssh-client package though
Oct 13 06:39:46 <RobbieThe1st> Anyone famialiar with PyQT?
Oct 13 06:54:38 <JZA> hi I need help
Oct 13 06:54:44 <RobbieThe1st> With?
Oct 13 06:54:51 <JZA> how can I flash my maemo to the latest firmware I am using Mandriva 2010
Oct 13 06:55:07 <RobbieThe1st> Download the flasher utility
Oct 13 06:56:02 <JZA> and I get a message saying Unable to enumerate USB devices!
Oct 13 06:56:07 <RobbieThe1st> run as root
Oct 13 06:56:11 <JZA>  I did
Oct 13 06:56:22 <RobbieThe1st> Paste the full message here?
Oct 13 06:56:28 <JZA> ./flasher-3.5 -F ../RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1.002_PR_COMBINED_002_ARM.bin -f -R
Oct 13 06:56:31 <JZA> thats the command I put
Oct 13 06:56:34 <jpinx-eeepc> maybe as root and not sudo?
Oct 13 06:56:36 <RobbieThe1st> Which is correct
Oct 13 06:56:55 <psycho_oreos> sudo should be able to do it as well, fakeroot probably can't
Oct 13 06:57:11 <RobbieThe1st> What's the error message
Oct 13 06:57:18 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: depends on his  sudo config maybe
Oct 13 06:57:33 <JZA> RobbieThe1st: the full message is huge, let me pastebin it
Oct 13 06:57:37 <RobbieThe1st> K
Oct 13 06:58:05 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, probably but *shrugs* I usually do sudo -i anyway
Oct 13 06:58:20 <RobbieThe1st> what's sudo -i do?
Oct 13 06:58:31 <JZA> http://jza.pastebin.com/gaNj5by8
Oct 13 06:58:51 <psycho_oreos> RobbieThe1st, gives you root shell
Oct 13 06:59:00 <RobbieThe1st> I mean vs regular sudo
Oct 13 06:59:12 <jpinx-eeepc> why not use su?
Oct 13 06:59:25 <jpinx-eeepc> *shrugz*
Oct 13 06:59:37 <psycho_oreos> sudo -i gives you bash prompt provided that you have yourself on sudoers list with rights to execute bin/bash or whatever and using your own password
Oct 13 06:59:44 <RobbieThe1st> Ah
Oct 13 06:59:48 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, afaik that requires root password not user's password
Oct 13 06:59:50 <RobbieThe1st> q
Oct 13 07:00:04 <psycho_oreos> s/bash/shell/g
Oct 13 07:00:10 <psycho_oreos> s/bash/shell/
Oct 13 07:00:53 <JZA> RobbieThe1st: so?
Oct 13 07:01:10 <RobbieThe1st> Um, try "rmmod cdc_phonet"
Oct 13 07:01:15 <RobbieThe1st> and rmmod phonet
Oct 13 07:01:39 <RobbieThe1st> Otherwise, a Ubuntu LiveCD may be a good idea
Oct 13 07:02:22 <JZA> rmmod cdc_phonet and then try the same?
Oct 13 07:02:31 <RobbieThe1st> Yea
Oct 13 07:05:28 <JZA> RobbieThe1st: why will it work on ubuntu but not on the rest?
Oct 13 07:05:53 <RobbieThe1st> It should work on most
Oct 13 07:06:01 <RobbieThe1st> I just -know- it works on Ubuntu and Debian
Oct 13 07:09:15 <jpinx-eeepc> when I run apt-get -f install . it tries to remove almost everything :(  I'm trying to resolve dependencies for bitlbee
Oct 13 07:12:49 <jpinx-eeepc> RobbieThe1st: any clues?  http://paste.debian.net/96001/
Oct 13 07:13:38 <RobbieThe1st> Do you, by chance, have a Debian repo in there?
Oct 13 07:14:33 <jpinx-eeepc> nope - here's the attempted install of bitlbee .. http://paste.debian.net/96002/
Oct 13 07:15:25 <RobbieThe1st> Do an apt-get update
Oct 13 07:15:46 <RobbieThe1st> It looks like one of the dependancies conflicts with an important package
Oct 13 07:16:08 <jpinx-eeepc> sources --  http://paste.debian.net/96003/
Oct 13 07:16:40 <jpinx-eeepc> yea - I did the update after adding the tools repos you gave me about ten minutes ago
Oct 13 07:17:06 <RobbieThe1st> I'd post on the Maemo forums; I've never seen anything like it aside from a major conflict
Oct 13 07:17:17 <jpinx-eeepc> oki doki
Oct 13 07:17:33 <jpinx-eeepc> I'll need to join the forums :(
Oct 13 07:17:43 <RobbieThe1st> Not a big deal
Oct 13 07:17:43 <timeless_mbp1> hey Stskeeps, et al, i've been asked (by TI) to note that the Flash 10.1 arm thing is really not for end users
Oct 13 07:17:51 <jpinx-eeepc> and go back to using bitlbee in the chroot ;)
Oct 13 07:17:52 <Stskeeps> timeless_mbp1: quite aware
Oct 13 07:17:59 <RobbieThe1st> Why not, specifically?
Oct 13 07:18:07 <timeless_mbp> specifically it's really targeted at vendors
Oct 13 07:18:26 <timeless_mbp> to show off features and to help them look at modern chips from TI
Oct 13 07:18:42 <RobbieThe1st> That's silly
Oct 13 07:18:45 <timeless_mbp> at least, that's the short of it, i got a sizable email on the subject
Oct 13 07:18:48 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st: um
Oct 13 07:18:53 <timeless_mbp> imagine you're a hardware vendor
Oct 13 07:19:05 <timeless_mbp> you're in the business of selling NEW hardware to NEW or existing customers
Oct 13 07:19:11 <Stskeeps> timeless_mbp: my goal was to evaluate it on top of meego arm so that was good enough for me
Oct 13 07:19:15 <timeless_mbp> you don't have any dealings with end users
Oct 13 07:19:23 <timeless_mbp> you don't have support contracts to end users
Oct 13 07:19:31 <timeless_mbp> Stskeeps: indeed
Oct 13 07:19:52 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st: each trial you offer incurs some overhead
Oct 13 07:20:00 <RobbieThe1st> Nah, what I mean is that Adobe already has this. They should be giving copies out also. Either that, or providing this to all TI-based devices
Oct 13 07:20:03 <timeless_mbp> there are support costs
Oct 13 07:20:13 <Stskeeps> i noted the performance in fennec-qt was horrid under meego and hence it was worth seeing if it was a meego-fennec problem or if it worked under microb
Oct 13 07:20:17 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st: well, that's more or less the point
Oct 13 07:20:28 <timeless_mbp> end users should be getting flash10.1 from either adobe or nokia (their vendor)
Oct 13 07:20:33 <timeless_mbp> not from TI
Oct 13 07:20:35 <Stskeeps> so, basically, our fennec-qt sucks on meego ;)
Oct 13 07:20:50 <timeless_mbp> TI's release isn't targeted at end users
Oct 13 07:20:57 <timeless_mbp> it's targeted at companies like Nokia
Oct 13 07:21:25 <RobbieThe1st> So the real question is: How come TI has it, yet everyone else doesn't? Why isn't Nokia or Adobe providing it yet(well, I know the reason: Money)?
Oct 13 07:21:26 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st: roughly, instead of you trying to get a trial from TI, you should complain to Nokia (/Nokia Care) about the fact that it's missing
Oct 13 07:21:37 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st:  that isn't the reason
Oct 13 07:22:02 <timeless_mbp> Adobe _probably_ isn't releasing it yet because it probably isn't finished/good enough for whatever their standard is
Oct 13 07:22:18 <timeless_mbp> (or perhaps because they have a stupid entangling license agreement w/ another company)
Oct 13 07:22:57 <timeless_mbp> Nokia _probably_ isn't releasing it yet for probably similar reasons, or perhaps because someone decided to sit on it, or that there was some other schedule for it, or not to do it, or because someone's being annoying
Oct 13 07:23:01 <RobbieThe1st> Either way, it means that -- realisticly -- we won't get it for months, unless someone breaks their agreement and it gets leaked
Oct 13 07:23:02 <timeless_mbp> I can't speak for Nokia
Oct 13 07:23:10 <timeless_mbp> even if i actually do know something about nokia's plans
Oct 13 07:23:19 <timeless_mbp> (and i try very hard not to know *anything* about Nokia's plans)
Oct 13 07:23:35 <RobbieThe1st> Can you go ask them about it, or bring up our wishes as users?
Oct 13 07:23:40 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st: yeah, well
Oct 13 07:23:42 <timeless_mbp> nope
Oct 13 07:23:52 <RobbieThe1st> That sucks
Oct 13 07:23:53 <timeless_mbp> pointless, be a proper user and complain to Nokia Care directly
Oct 13 07:24:00 <timeless_mbp> i've said this before and i'll say it again:
Oct 13 07:24:12 <timeless_mbp> Nokia Care like all other support systems works on a bucket based system
Oct 13 07:24:18 <timeless_mbp> each complaint is sorted into a bucket
Oct 13 07:24:26 <timeless_mbp> if the bucket overflows, someone gets pestered about it
Oct 13 07:24:42 <timeless_mbp> your goal as an annoyed customer is to manage to get your problem into an overflowing bucket
Oct 13 07:24:56 <timeless_mbp> we *do* get bothered by nokia care when an issue gets raised too often
Oct 13 07:25:17 <timeless_mbp> basically end users do have power here, but not as a silent majority
Oct 13 07:25:20 <RobbieThe1st> Do you know any specific words/methods to make sure you get into the "release Flash 10.1" bucket?
Oct 13 07:25:50 <RobbieThe1st> I suppose I could go make a forum topic with the link and proper keywords; try to get the hundred+ people complaining about it into the right area
Oct 13 07:26:23 <timeless_mbp> ideally it'd be more like "My n900 can't visit site X, it says it requires Flash 10.1"
Oct 13 07:26:35 <timeless_mbp> preferably X should be both relatively consistent and fairly major
Oct 13 07:26:48 <timeless_mbp> if X is a hobbyist site, someone will figure out you're gaming and try to ignore you
Oct 13 07:27:13 <timeless_mbp> fwiw, I don't offhand know of site X. so that's really your first step..
Oct 13 07:27:22 <RobbieThe1st> Hm... I suppose it'd have to be either Youtube or - what's that other major streaming site?
Oct 13 07:27:35 <Myrtti> RobbieThe1st: calling/emailing/visiting nokia care is always better than a forum topic
Oct 13 07:27:56 <Myrtti> RobbieThe1st: that way they *have* to deal with you
Oct 13 07:28:01 <RobbieThe1st> Myrtti: Forum topic's there before I was, and that's where people -are
Oct 13 07:28:50 <Myrtti> I've said this so many times it's getting boring, but "other people's stupidity doesn't warrant yours"
Oct 13 07:28:58 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st:  afaik youtube "works"
Oct 13 07:29:07 <timeless_mbp> generally speaking the major one is youporn
Oct 13 07:29:11 <timeless_mbp> and i don't remember if that works
Oct 13 07:29:27 <RobbieThe1st> ... I'm trying to figure out the best way to solve the problem here
Oct 13 07:29:43 <Myrtti> vimeo / ustream / bambuser etc
Oct 13 07:29:50 <Myrtti> I have no idea if those work either
Oct 13 07:29:54 <RobbieThe1st> Hm, what about veoh
Oct 13 07:30:06 * timeless_mbp shrugs
Oct 13 07:30:12 <timeless_mbp> it really isn't ok for me to *organize* this
Oct 13 07:30:22 <timeless_mbp> since that'd be me wagging the dog (my employer)
Oct 13 07:30:32 * Myrtti is trying to ignore timeless_mbp very hard ;-)
Oct 13 07:30:39 <timeless_mbp> :)
Oct 13 07:30:40 <RobbieThe1st> Yea, I know. That's why I'm going to do it, I'm just asking you pointed questions about how to best do it
Oct 13 07:30:42 <RobbieThe1st> ;)
Oct 13 07:31:25 <timeless_mbp> fwiw, what i'm saying here is nothing new, i've said it before (in this channel) on a number of occasions
Oct 13 07:31:40 <timeless_mbp> bothering whichever company's support group (in numbers) is always right
Oct 13 07:31:52 <RobbieThe1st> First time I've seen it though; Only found this channel a good week ago
Oct 13 07:31:54 <timeless_mbp> remember that support tickets cost money, so someone is supposed to monitor them
Oct 13 07:32:11 <Myrtti> I feel so old now ;_____;
Oct 13 07:32:18 <RobbieThe1st> I thought they just ignored them entirely
Oct 13 07:32:22 <timeless_mbp> nah
Oct 13 07:32:25 <timeless_mbp> that'd be stupid
Oct 13 07:32:42 <Myrtti> support tickets are complaints from paying customers
Oct 13 07:32:50 <timeless_mbp> you get a really bad reaction if customers discover you're ignoring your support line
Oct 13 07:32:51 <Myrtti> forum posts etc can be made by anyone
Oct 13 07:33:00 <timeless_mbp> they tell their friends not to buy the product because the support is bad
Oct 13 07:33:10 <RobbieThe1st> Well, judging by the complaint posts I see in the forum...
Oct 13 07:33:13 <timeless_mbp> no company, not even really dumb companies, can afford to do that
Oct 13 07:33:19 <Myrtti> "forum posts etc can be made by anyone"
Oct 13 07:33:59 <RobbieThe1st> That happened like six months ago. Everyone I've seen says that they think nokia's support is the worst ever. Sure, it may not be official, but its close enough
Oct 13 07:34:02 <Myrtti> it's not totally unique or new trick to rig forum posts this or that way by a third party
Oct 13 07:34:29 <Myrtti> not that I'm saying it's done on t.m.o, but it is possible
Oct 13 07:34:52 <timeless_mbp> hey avs, did i mention i have a shiny chip-id card? :)
Oct 13 07:35:02 <timeless_mbp> (i've already lost the pin, but..)
Oct 13 07:35:04 <RobbieThe1st> Well, sure, but when you are talking about accounts that have been around for months, and have lots of other, on-topic posts... it would be hard to fake. So, while I agree its possible, I'm just saying that -realisticly-...
Oct 13 07:35:42 <timeless_mbp> :o
Oct 13 07:35:55 <timeless_mbp> Google Chrome just offered me a beta via a popup notice from the w7 taskbar
Oct 13 07:36:31 <timeless_mbp> (no, google chrome was not running, the only things running are Windows Update [busy] and AV [weekly scan])
Oct 13 07:37:08 <RobbieThe1st> Evil!
Oct 13 07:40:34 * RST38h yawns and stretches
Oct 13 07:40:48 * timeless_mbp waits for windows update to finish
Oct 13 07:41:12 <RST38h> Sooo, what is new and exciting? PR1.3? N9? Meego Devices switching to Dalvik?
Oct 13 07:41:31 <Myrtti> lollololollers
Oct 13 07:41:38 <jpinx-eeepc> RobbieThe1st: posted that on users maillist
Oct 13 07:41:58 <RobbieThe1st> Alright I guess; I never watch mailinglists so...
Oct 13 07:42:14 <jpinx-eeepc> where else should I try?
Oct 13 07:42:24 <RobbieThe1st> Forum. talk.maemo.org
Oct 13 07:42:36 <RobbieThe1st> Most questions get a response, that I've seen
Oct 13 07:42:39 <jpinx-eeepc> Aaach -- too many places -- ok
Oct 13 07:48:54 <RobbieThe1st> Oh, that reminds me: timeless, do you know anything about the mtd_utils (specificly nandwrite etc.) that come with the N900?
Oct 13 07:49:07 <timeless_mbp> nope
Oct 13 07:49:24 <RobbieThe1st> Alright then
Oct 13 07:49:32 <Stskeeps> RobbieThe1st: i thought they're not bundled
Oct 13 07:49:45 <RobbieThe1st> Really? No nandwrite?
Oct 13 07:49:50 <Stskeeps> afaik
Oct 13 07:50:02 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st: i think when i need stuff like that i go to the internal who owns it and ask them to fix
Oct 13 07:51:14 <RobbieThe1st> I'm trying to find a nand-safe way to read/write images of the rootfs. I've already got a ramdisk chroot, so I can safely do it, but... I can't find any man-pages on this stuff!
Oct 13 07:51:26 <timeless_mbp> there are rare advantages to employment + being onsite :)
Oct 13 07:52:07 <RobbieThe1st> I get grumped at for using DD (which, admittedly, has some problems with bad blocks), but I can't fix it, as I can't find any information on -how- to do so. >.<
Oct 13 07:52:12 <RobbieThe1st> Yea, I suppose there are
Oct 13 07:52:46 <mece> RobbieThe1st, well how does the flasher do it?
Oct 13 07:52:58 <timeless_mbp> no one in their right mind uses dd
Oct 13 07:53:01 <timeless_mbp> and there's no "fix"
Oct 13 07:53:01 <RobbieThe1st> It doesn't read it. That's one problem right there
Oct 13 07:53:03 <timeless_mbp> it isn't a bug
Oct 13 07:53:10 <timeless_mbp> just a behavioral disconnect
Oct 13 07:53:14 <timeless_mbp> dd = raw i/o
Oct 13 07:53:24 <timeless_mbp> flash = system that *will* have bad blocks
Oct 13 07:53:41 <timeless_mbp> hence => use a different tool
Oct 13 07:53:42 <RobbieThe1st> Um... Fix as in "make some sort of nokia-flasher flashable rootfs image"
Oct 13 07:54:11 <Stskeeps> RobbieThe1st: then mkfs.ubifs based on the root image :P
Oct 13 07:54:15 <timeless_mbp> i'm pretty sure there are tools for that
Oct 13 07:54:22 <timeless_mbp> yeah
Oct 13 07:54:26 <mece> You want to save "state" of the device, amiright?
Oct 13 07:54:28 <Stskeeps> RobbieThe1st: that's what i do locally
Oct 13 07:54:38 <Stskeeps> RobbieThe1st: rsync to microsd, mkfs.ubifs on computer
Oct 13 07:54:58 <mece> yay! new meego image :)
Oct 13 07:55:41 <RobbieThe1st> Ok, so working at the file level then?
Oct 13 07:55:56 <timeless_mbp> Stskeeps: btw, is it faster to rsync to uSD or [ip] ?
Oct 13 07:56:08 <Stskeeps> good question
Oct 13 07:56:14 <Stskeeps> i think i rsync actually
Oct 13 07:56:22 <timeless_mbp> please find out :)
Oct 13 07:56:38 <timeless_mbp> rsync can be used for either
Oct 13 07:56:43 <timeless_mbp> (rsync is too versatile)
Oct 13 07:57:19 <RobbieThe1st> Thing is, the whole goal of this project is to build a system that will backup and restore N900 state images -without- using a computer. So, using mkfs.ubifs on the computer won't really work. I did figure out a way to just make and restore tarballs of files, which also should work...
Oct 13 07:57:29 <RST38h> How do I find out the IP address on a plain vanilla Maemo5?
Oct 13 07:57:35 <Stskeeps> RobbieThe1st: well, you cn technically mkfs.ubifs on device
Oct 13 07:57:36 <RST38h> (i.e. no additional tools installed)
Oct 13 07:57:44 <RobbieThe1st> RST: ifconfig
Oct 13 07:57:51 <RobbieThe1st> may need to be run as root though
Oct 13 07:57:52 <timeless_mbp> RST38h:  open xterm
Oct 13 07:58:04 <timeless_mbp>  it's in sbin not bin (ie not $PATH)
Oct 13 07:58:17 <RST38h> ah, thanks
Oct 13 07:58:30 <RobbieThe1st> Ok, so type "/sbin/ifconfig". There you go
Oct 13 07:58:32 <timeless_mbp>  /sbin/ifconfig
Oct 13 07:59:42 <mece> scout is a great app. just sayin'
Oct 13 08:00:19 <RST38h> Nah, no real IP. Pity, but expectable
Oct 13 08:00:50 <RobbieThe1st> Hm... Just a question, and I'm sure there's a simple answer for it. So, I chroot to my ramdisk, unmount the rootfs and mount it to, say, /tmp/rootfs. Is there anything that will get screwed up by doing "rm -rf /tmp/rootfs/*" before restoring files to it?
Oct 13 08:01:25 <mece> RST38h, what do you mean no real ip?
Oct 13 08:01:40 <dneary> hi
Oct 13 08:01:51 <crashanddie> hey dneary
Oct 13 08:01:55 <mece> dneary, hi
Oct 13 08:01:59 <dneary> hi anddia
Oct 13 08:02:02 <dneary> anddie
Oct 13 08:02:16 <crashanddie> anddie?
Oct 13 08:02:26 <RobbieThe1st> RST: You can always go to www.whatismyip.org to find your external IP
Oct 13 08:02:56 <TermanaN900> nearhe
Oct 13 08:03:19 <dneary> Yeah
Oct 13 08:03:29 <dneary> Crash Anddie
Oct 13 08:03:45 <dneary> A funny way to spell Andy, but hey, it's IRC
Oct 13 08:04:08 <dneary> Ppl dont no how 2 spl here
Oct 13 08:04:37 <crashanddie> you just broke my sarcasmeter
Oct 13 08:05:07 <TermanaN900> dneary, what's funny about that is that for a while i actually thought that's what he's nick said until i actually checked the spelling on it
Oct 13 08:05:56 <dneary> crashanddie, http://thomasbeagle.net/files/care-o-meter.gif
Oct 13 08:06:17 <mece> heh
Oct 13 08:06:30 <crashanddie> TermanaN900, When I started out IRC in the early 90s, Undernet had a 9char limit on nicknames
Oct 13 08:06:43 <crashanddie> TermanaN900, which meant my nick was "CrashandD"
Oct 13 08:07:08 <crashanddie> because I was mainly in dutch channels, people thought it was "kras hand" (scratch hand)
Oct 13 08:07:31 <TermanaN900> lol
Oct 13 08:07:42 <crashanddie> I can't believe I just told a story from nearly two decades ago
Oct 13 08:07:43 <RST38h> mece: I am behind NAT. Hence, no real external IP to ssh to.
Oct 13 08:08:10 <crashanddie> RST38h, reverse SSH?
Oct 13 08:08:16 <RobbieThe1st> If you have access to the router, you can port-forward
Oct 13 08:08:21 <RST38h> crashanddie: too complicated for a cow.
Oct 13 08:08:49 <crashanddie> RST38h, not really complicated once you wrap your head around, or are we talking about peanut brain power?
Oct 13 08:09:00 <mece> RST38h, then I guess you don't know without consulting your nat or whatsmyip.org or some other place that gives your ip
Oct 13 08:09:44 <mece> like sshing somewhere and see there where you're connecting from?
Oct 13 08:10:12 <crashanddie> dneary, talking about spelling, in Amsterdam, I had someone ask me if you were Romanian or something, because your French was good, but sounded a tad weird at times. When I said you were Irish, they replied "Ah yes, different alphabet doesn't help"
Oct 13 08:10:32 <crashanddie> To this day, I'm still not sure if they were joking or not.
Oct 13 08:12:03 <mece> I agree that the irish alphabet is difficult
Oct 13 08:17:39 <timeless_mbp> gaelic/celtic?
Oct 13 08:22:39 <dneary> crashanddie, Funny :)
Oct 13 08:22:50 <dneary> timeless_mbp, Ogham
Oct 13 08:23:29 * timeless_mbp waits for a computer w/ a working web browser to become available
Oct 13 08:23:32 <dneary> crashanddie, Romanian was already funny - I guess they never heard me speak English?
Oct 13 08:23:47 <dneary> timeless_mbp, We've had those for years
Oct 13 08:23:58 <dneary> (/me drops OT chatter for now...)
Oct 13 08:24:26 <timeless_mbp> my n900 is syncing and i want to watch status, my mac is spending all its memory on windows, and windows is updating java
Oct 13 08:24:33 <timeless_mbp> => no browser hosts
Oct 13 08:24:47 <timeless_mbp> oh, java's done. reboot!
Oct 13 08:25:03 <timeless_mbp> (the reboot was for the w7 updates which i installed first, not for java, but..)
Oct 13 08:26:32 <RobbieThe1st> Ah, that's one thing I like about linux: Never having to reboot after updates
Oct 13 08:26:45 <timeless_mbp> grr
Oct 13 08:26:54 <timeless_mbp> why does everyone think I'm "Josef"?
Oct 13 08:27:05 <timeless_mbp> it's bad enough people think I'm Tim Eless
Oct 13 08:27:05 <joga> RobbieThe1st, well, you have to boot sometimes, or just the old stuff will be in memory
Oct 13 08:27:18 <joga> and of course when the kernel is updated unless you use magic trickery
Oct 13 08:27:29 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st:  linux really isn't better
Oct 13 08:27:40 <SpeedEvil> joga: if you start/stop daemons - then stuff goes away
Oct 13 08:27:41 <timeless_mbp> in theory there's a in kernel patcher for kernel stuff
Oct 13 08:27:49 <SpeedEvil> joga: very little remains in RAM.
Oct 13 08:27:51 <RobbieThe1st> Well, for me it just installs the new kernel on the next reboot. So while technically I'd have to reboot
Oct 13 08:27:56 <timeless_mbp> but if you have libraries loaded for critical services, you're going to somehow need to get those kicked
Oct 13 08:28:01 <timeless_mbp> at a certain point you might as well reboot
Oct 13 08:28:08 <timeless_mbp> and you're insane if you think the windows approach is bad
Oct 13 08:28:10 <RobbieThe1st> I can generally finish my session, go to bed, and then tomorrow have it all updated
Oct 13 08:28:10 <joga> SpeedEvil, yeah but some core libs probably stay until you reboot or make a big effort
Oct 13 08:28:16 <timeless_mbp> consider that you have an n900 running PR1.2
Oct 13 08:28:22 <timeless_mbp> which is *how* stale?
Oct 13 08:28:34 <timeless_mbp> most ubuntu boxes i visit are nearly as bad (or worse)
Oct 13 08:28:52 <RobbieThe1st> Well, by stale, you mean?
Oct 13 08:29:09 <timeless_mbp> i mean most of the apps have updates that you don't have
Oct 13 08:29:18 <RobbieThe1st> I've got the latest updates in extras-devel, so...
Oct 13 08:29:33 <SpeedEvil>  core apps
Oct 13 08:29:39 <timeless_mbp> Stskeeps:  omigosh!
Oct 13 08:29:46 <Stskeeps> timeless_mbp: hmm?
Oct 13 08:29:53 <timeless_mbp> mountains moved. the earth shook. my patch for symbian was commited!
Oct 13 08:29:59 <Stskeeps> timeless_mbp: scary
Oct 13 08:30:15 <mece> wow
Oct 13 08:30:20 <RobbieThe1st> What, one step closer to a stable, working OS? Wow
Oct 13 08:30:25 <timeless_mbp> nah
Oct 13 08:30:31 <timeless_mbp> it was a giant spelling patch
Oct 13 08:30:41 <timeless_mbp> just to see how their patch management system works
Oct 13 08:30:49 <timeless_mbp> the answer is poorly, and rather slowly, but it does work
Oct 13 08:31:14 <timeless_mbp> i'll provide a url once i get a working browser available near this irc client
Oct 13 08:31:54 <timeless_mbp> Stskeeps: actually, i suspect that it means that the time to integrate a patch into symbian is better than the time to get a fix into maemo
Oct 13 08:32:00 <timeless_mbp> for maemo my estimate has been 18 months
Oct 13 08:32:12 <timeless_mbp> i think it took around 10 months for my patch to land in "for next release"
Oct 13 08:32:30 <timeless_mbp> and if they're doing a half year release cycle, that should mean the patch gets out in <18 :o
Oct 13 08:32:54 <Stskeeps> well, next question is when it lands in a product release
Oct 13 08:33:07 <timeless_mbp> yeah
Oct 13 08:33:12 <timeless_mbp> i know
Oct 13 08:33:24 <timeless_mbp> but they have 7 months to beat the 18 month number for maemo
Oct 13 08:33:31 <timeless_mbp> (which is report => product release)
Oct 13 08:34:59 <RobbieThe1st> Well, I'm glad that at least most of Maemo's OSS, so people can go develop their own patches and get them applied before the snail reporting system finally gets around to it
Oct 13 08:35:16 <Stskeeps> it's not really, but ok
Oct 13 08:35:18 <Stskeeps> 43%
Oct 13 08:35:34 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st: this was reported to the symbian foundation using their open bug tracker (bugzilla)
Oct 13 08:35:42 <timeless_mbp> based on their open source (mercurial managed) repositories
Oct 13 08:36:01 <RobbieThe1st> Then, why does it take so darn long?
Oct 13 08:36:10 <Jaffa> Morning, all
Oct 13 08:36:17 <RobbieThe1st> Actually, though, I meant about the 18-month Maemo cycle
Oct 13 08:36:23 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st:  oh
Oct 13 08:36:27 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: morn
Oct 13 08:36:40 <timeless_mbp> that's basically "find a bug past the freeze date for a product which isn't shipping"
Oct 13 08:36:42 <timeless_mbp> that means:
Oct 13 08:36:48 <timeless_mbp> 1. wait for that product to get out the door
Oct 13 08:36:53 <timeless_mbp> 2. wait for its replacement to get out the door
Oct 13 08:37:01 <timeless_mbp> that generally averages to around 18 months
Oct 13 08:38:43 <RobbieThe1st> It seems like, on Linux based systems like these, you should have monthly or bi-monthly updates to the firmware, provided its bugs that are found
Oct 13 08:38:56 <timeless_mbp> well
Oct 13 08:39:00 <timeless_mbp> monthly is definitely out
Oct 13 08:39:07 <RobbieThe1st> Framework's already in place, all that would be needed is to upload new packages as-needed
Oct 13 08:39:13 <timeless_mbp> it takes a month or so to test+certify an image
Oct 13 08:39:20 <RST38h> ...and here we go again.
Oct 13 08:39:39 <RobbieThe1st> RST?
Oct 13 08:40:05 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st: that said, from my perspective as an engineer, i agree
Oct 13 08:40:15 <timeless_mbp> and as someone working on security, i want to be able to push a release w/in 2 weeks
Oct 13 08:40:26 <timeless_mbp> but from seeing how things are done in a big company (and nokia is big)
Oct 13 08:40:31 <timeless_mbp> it just isn't practical
Oct 13 08:40:54 <timeless_mbp> aiming for 6 months is unfortunately realistic, and 3 months is optimistic
Oct 13 08:41:15 <timeless_mbp> and by the time you reach 6 months you start competing for resources
Oct 13 08:41:49 <RobbieThe1st> It seems like the security and issues like this should be left to individual OS/device team groups, so you guys would end up doing the whole find > test > betatest > release cycle yourself
Oct 13 08:42:16 <timeless_mbp> the groups aren't organized in any way that helps any of this
Oct 13 08:42:34 <timeless_mbp> currently things are organized more or less by product
Oct 13 08:42:41 <timeless_mbp> e.g. delivery of a complete stack for the n900
Oct 13 08:43:04 <timeless_mbp> which means that if you e.g. want to update the browser, you have to ensure that the media player doesn't regress while playing newer media content from a third party
Oct 13 08:43:23 <timeless_mbp> which might have changed its codec to be one that doesn't work well w/ the *unchanged* media player
Oct 13 08:43:35 <timeless_mbp> it's possible to have an update scuttled because of something like that
Oct 13 08:43:46 <timeless_mbp> (in general it isn't quite that bad, but..)
Oct 13 08:44:10 <timeless_mbp> the idea is that you do *not* want to ship an update which regresses things
Oct 13 08:44:17 <timeless_mbp> people *must* trust the update process
Oct 13 08:44:38 <timeless_mbp> so, there's a general belief (in management) that it's better to be late than early + buggy
Oct 13 08:44:39 <RST38h> One more time: update all non-critical packages (i.e. not requiring certification) and push them to Extras-devel or some other non-legally-binding repo
Oct 13 08:44:40 <RobbieThe1st> While I understand that this won't happen, it seems like this should be dealt with through "devel", "testing" repos - Then, these things can be tested with a lot of people, etc.
Oct 13 08:44:59 <RST38h> Let users test them, collect bug reports, stir, repeat
Oct 13 08:45:08 <timeless_mbp> RST38h: i'm not opposed
Oct 13 08:45:23 <timeless_mbp> but to do that, you need a real team of people (not paid by nokia) to manage the reports
Oct 13 08:45:24 <RST38h> That is the problem: NOBODY is opposed, but it is just not getting DONE.
Oct 13 08:45:32 <timeless_mbp> actually converting them to something useful
Oct 13 08:45:42 <RST38h> Guess what, we have even got people who manage reports
Oct 13 08:45:50 <timeless_mbp> really?
Oct 13 08:45:55 <timeless_mbp> andre doesn't count here
Oct 13 08:46:05 <RST38h> well, b.m.o is being managed rather well, isn't it?
Oct 13 08:46:13 <RST38h> Why doesn't Anfre count?
Oct 13 08:46:33 <timeless_mbp> he's paid to do <x>, and this would be above <x>
Oct 13 08:46:51 <timeless_mbp> you're asking for additional workload
Oct 13 08:47:21 <timeless_mbp> (not sure who Anfre is btw)
Oct 13 08:47:47 <RobbieThe1st> And again, on my side of things as the user: I run into a battery-eating bug, like the hildon-desktop bug. Now, it pretty much makes the device hard to use if not "broken" until its fixed; even a minor regression would be worth a fix. Fortunately, some kid managed to make a patch for it and provided a good fix, but still...
Oct 13 08:47:52 <TermanaN900> timeless_mbp, i think he means Andre
Oct 13 08:48:01 <RST38h> Ok. Have one person do bug reports management. Properly.
Oct 13 08:48:41 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st:  imagine if the update included something which was that battery eating bug
Oct 13 08:48:51 <andre__> (Proper bug reports management also involves developers and I don't really see them in bugs.maemo.org yet.)
Oct 13 08:48:56 <timeless_mbp> imagine if most of the testers encounter it but can't figure it out
Oct 13 08:49:06 <timeless_mbp> andre__: yet is optimistic
Oct 13 08:49:17 <timeless_mbp> at this point i think that boat isn't going to sail
Oct 13 08:49:33 <RST38h> Testers are not supposed to "figure it out". They are supposed to correclty report observed behaviour.
Oct 13 08:49:43 <RST38h> Developers are supposed to figure it out and fix it.
Oct 13 08:49:59 <timeless_mbp> RST38h:  not correct
Oct 13 08:50:06 <timeless_mbp> ideally QA figures it out
Oct 13 08:50:11 <timeless_mbp> developers are supposed to fix
Oct 13 08:50:23 <RobbieThe1st> Well, the thing is, despite the best practices you guys are using, it still got into PR1.2. So, yes, it will happen occasionally, which is why releasing a fix as soon as possible should have priority and shouldn't take months.
Oct 13 08:50:28 <RST38h> Have you ever seen QA figuring out the cause of a bug?
Oct 13 08:50:30 <timeless_mbp> but keep in mind that you're asking to split resources
Oct 13 08:50:38 <timeless_mbp> RST38h:  sure, for 10 years in realm:mozilla.org
Oct 13 08:50:39 <RST38h> I mean, real, full-time, salaried QA?
Oct 13 08:50:44 <timeless_mbp> yeah
Oct 13 08:50:55 <RST38h> mozilla must be special then
Oct 13 08:50:57 <timeless_mbp> the salaried people @netscape, @sun, @ibm, @moco
Oct 13 08:51:10 <RST38h> QA runs tests and reports testing results, afaik
Oct 13 08:51:13 <timeless_mbp> (sun and ibm weren't specifically mozilla related)
Oct 13 08:51:17 <RST38h> They do not do debugging
Oct 13 08:51:43 <timeless_mbp> you're also missing a class of engineer
Oct 13 08:51:51 <timeless_mbp> sun/oracle and friends have it
Oct 13 08:52:10 <timeless_mbp> they aren't developers, they're engineers who actually do customer oriented analysis/debugging
Oct 13 08:52:21 * timeless_mbp can't remember the shiny title for that
Oct 13 08:52:38 <timeless_mbp> (microsoft has them too, and they posted a "we're hiring" ad w/in the past 4 months iirc)
Oct 13 08:53:44 <RobbieThe1st> Slightly off topic here, do you see any changes happening thanks to the new CEO etc.?
Oct 13 08:54:36 <RST38h> timeless: TCE/TME?
Oct 13 08:54:43 <RST38h> timeless: these are not QA
Oct 13 08:55:12 <RST38h> And yes, they do shitloads of debugging, they are just not QA :)
Oct 13 08:55:49 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st: nothing worth speaking about
Oct 13 08:56:01 <RobbieThe1st> Sad. Oh well.
Oct 13 08:56:02 <timeless_mbp> nokia generally does reorgs every 12-24 months anyway
Oct 13 08:56:09 <timeless_mbp> and someone said one was scheduled for around now
Oct 13 08:56:19 <timeless_mbp> which means things would have shifted anyway...
Oct 13 08:56:31 <timeless_mbp> he did come to visit the office, and was apparently well received
Oct 13 08:56:50 <timeless_mbp> but it's really way too early for him to have a significant effect on things
Oct 13 08:57:05 <timeless_mbp> beyond the obvious bits where people come/go because management changes
Oct 13 08:57:49 <timeless_mbp> one surprise i got was meeting someone who joined *because* the new ceo joined (and he arranged to start the same day)
Oct 13 08:58:23 <timeless_mbp> that to me shows some amount of confidence from others in him, which is probably one of the more meaningful indicators one can have this early
Oct 13 08:58:34 <RobbieThe1st> Yea
Oct 13 09:03:00 <RST38h> or it may show a certain amount of incincerity ;)
Oct 13 09:17:41 <timeless_mbp> ok, sorry, it was only 8 months, not 10 months for the symbian landing
Oct 13 09:18:05 <timeless_mbp> and afaict it's only landed in their internal repo, not the public hg
Oct 13 09:18:37 <timeless_mbp> but still, if i understand their schedule, it will probably beat the maemo 18 month average
Oct 13 09:23:51 <RST38h> So, which one is it: too few developers or too many roadblocks they have to jump over to do their work?
Oct 13 09:25:56 <timeless_mbp> roadblocks and roads
Oct 13 09:26:12 <timeless_mbp> one developer is given e.g. 20 roads to go down
Oct 13 09:26:25 <timeless_mbp> consider my symbian bug http://developer.symbian.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=1948
Oct 13 09:26:27 <povbot> Bug 1948: is not accessible.
Oct 13 09:26:33 <timeless_mbp> i gave one developer an extra road to go down
Oct 13 09:27:03 <timeless_mbp> roads:
Oct 13 09:27:08 <timeless_mbp> 1. Symbian^3 ("stable")
Oct 13 09:27:17 <timeless_mbp> 2. Symbian^4 ("future") basic work
Oct 13 09:27:34 <timeless_mbp> 3. Vacation :)
Oct 13 09:27:38 <RST38h> Eeek
Oct 13 09:27:56 <timeless_mbp> 4. My extra task for him = one more road
Oct 13 09:28:06 <timeless_mbp> in reality he probably had 5-20 roads for point 1
Oct 13 09:28:13 <timeless_mbp> and another 5-30 for point 2
Oct 13 09:28:15 <RST38h> And doing this in an evolutionary way, sharing components that are the same, is definitely NOT a solution?
Oct 13 09:28:37 <timeless_mbp> and vacation involves planning, doing, reading email to recover
Oct 13 09:28:48 <RST38h> Also, isn't this a task for his project manager to correctly serialize different tasks and assign them to different people?
Oct 13 09:28:50 <timeless_mbp> (it took me ~8 days to recover from a 1 month vacation)
Oct 13 09:28:58 <timeless_mbp> ah
Oct 13 09:29:07 <timeless_mbp> if you want to look at it that way, then too few developers
Oct 13 09:29:18 <timeless_mbp> for my bug, it was properly serialized
Oct 13 09:29:21 <RST38h> Ok, so too few developers
Oct 13 09:29:24 <timeless_mbp> it was incredibly unimportant
Oct 13 09:29:35 <timeless_mbp> thus it deserved to be stuck at the very bottom of the pile
Oct 13 09:29:47 <timeless_mbp> well...
Oct 13 09:30:03 <timeless_mbp> you do know that adding developers doesn't magical get things done faster, right?
Oct 13 09:30:06 <timeless_mbp> the managers here don't
Oct 13 09:30:27 <timeless_mbp> they seem to think that doubling or tripling a team will magically double or triple productivity
Oct 13 09:30:49 <timeless_mbp> the reality is that new devs have to learn the stack, which generally means slowing down existing devs by asking for help (one way or the other)
Oct 13 09:30:49 <jarkkom> current troubles at nokia have been discussed quite a lot in finnish press but someone counted like 300+ people with "vice president" title at nokia
Oct 13 09:31:05 <timeless_mbp> jarkkom: heh
Oct 13 09:31:10 <timeless_mbp> (doesn't shock me at all)
Oct 13 09:31:17 <timeless_mbp> nokia is "top heavy"
Oct 13 09:31:20 <jarkkom> or as someone said that's too many people who can say "no" to feature while getting "yes" means going to CEO level
Oct 13 09:32:28 <RST38h> timeless: of course, it depends on the task at hand
Oct 13 09:32:45 <jarkkom> timeless_mbp, also middle management.. I had a friend who was at Research and he reported to 4 different managers, he figured out if he simply stopped showing up it would probably takes couple of years before they'd notice
Oct 13 09:33:03 <RST38h> Three excavators will not dig a tight hole faster than one
Oct 13 09:33:32 <timeless_mbp> jarkkom: i have around that many managers
Oct 13 09:33:35 <RST38h> But in this particular case, with this bug, it could be handled by some other person (not subsystem owner) perfectly well
Oct 13 09:33:40 <timeless_mbp> when people ask me who my manager, i have to stop and think
Oct 13 09:33:48 <timeless_mbp> after i bit, i ask them "what do you mean?"
Oct 13 09:34:06 <timeless_mbp> RST38h: actually, no
Oct 13 09:34:19 <timeless_mbp> the problem w/ a bug like this is that it incurs merge conflicts to any other pending work
Oct 13 09:34:47 <timeless_mbp> plus there /might/ actually be some changes buried in it which are in fact dangerous
Oct 13 09:34:54 <Appiah> hmm no changes to bug #6907. Kinda sucks when the music just starts playing after a phone call >_>
Oct 13 09:34:55 <povbot> Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6907 Media Player widget suddenly starts music after Phone call ends
Oct 13 09:35:07 <Appiah> thought this was fixed in PR1.2
Oct 13 09:35:13 * timeless_mbp sighs
Oct 13 09:35:17 <timeless_mbp> Appiah:  my personal gripe:
Oct 13 09:35:26 <Appiah> hmm?
Oct 13 09:35:28 <timeless_mbp> [still] Camera doesn't work while on a Call
Oct 13 09:35:47 <timeless_mbp> i'm not trying to record a video , just take a photo of something i see
Oct 13 09:35:53 <timeless_mbp> but that's illegal while i'm on the phone
Oct 13 09:35:56 * timeless_mbp curses managers
Oct 13 09:36:01 <Appiah> haha what?
Oct 13 09:36:03 <timeless_mbp> (or ui designers, whichever)
Oct 13 09:36:07 <timeless_mbp> try it yourself...
Oct 13 09:36:21 <Appiah> never ever thought of taking a picture while I'm on the phone
Oct 13 09:36:28 <timeless_mbp> to perfectly reproduce, set up a skype account (no money required), call +1800555TELL w/ skype
Oct 13 09:36:33 <timeless_mbp> it's a free call
Oct 13 09:36:39 <Appiah> ah skype test center?
Oct 13 09:36:41 <timeless_mbp> then try to take a photo
Oct 13 09:36:43 <timeless_mbp> nope
Oct 13 09:36:50 <timeless_mbp> it's a real us phone service
Oct 13 09:37:04 <timeless_mbp> +1-800-xxx-xxxx are free via skype
Oct 13 09:37:09 <Appiah> I see
Oct 13 09:37:18 <timeless_mbp> as are +(xx)800 numbers for various european countries
Oct 13 09:37:27 <jarkkom> did they give any reason? I know that everything involving camera has some pretty weird legal restrictions around it
Oct 13 09:37:32 <timeless_mbp> (and 1888/1877/1866 the other toll free numbers)
Oct 13 09:37:47 <timeless_mbp> jarkkom: supposedly a requirement to play a click sound
Oct 13 09:38:01 <timeless_mbp> so yeah, basically it's some idiot's legal restriction
Oct 13 09:38:02 <jarkkom> yeah that's legal requirement in some regions
Oct 13 09:38:08 <Appiah> cant it send that out of the speaker meanwhile then?
Oct 13 09:38:13 <Appiah> just the stupid click sond
Oct 13 09:38:15 <Appiah> sound*
Oct 13 09:38:16 <timeless_mbp> iirc the regions don't include countries our product is sold
Oct 13 09:38:17 <crashanddie> sure it can
Oct 13 09:38:32 <timeless_mbp> s/our/where our/
Oct 13 09:38:33 <infobot> timeless_mbp meant: iirc the regions don't include countries where our product is sold
Oct 13 09:38:35 <timeless_mbp> but...
Oct 13 09:38:40 <crashanddie> just look at the fact that even with headphones plugged in, some sounds are still sent on the loudspeakers
Oct 13 09:40:48 <timeless_mbp> the reality is that people blame lots of things on lawyers
Oct 13 09:40:49 <Appiah> think I'm gonna remove the media player widget for now... cant have my music starting randomly after calls when im at the office..
Oct 13 09:40:57 <timeless_mbp> it isn't the lawyers' fault
Oct 13 09:41:07 <timeless_mbp> and there's generally a way to avoid the problem and still get work done
Oct 13 09:41:17 <timeless_mbp> it's sometimes a matter of thinking creatively (for about 5s)
Oct 13 09:41:25 <timeless_mbp> but that can be a really big problem in certain countries
Oct 13 09:41:35 <RobbieThe1st> ...Like provide a "global" version with the required functionality that can be user-flashed
Oct 13 09:41:44 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st:  no
Oct 13 09:42:01 <timeless_mbp> like Appiah's thought "can't it send that out of the speaker..."
Oct 13 09:42:16 <timeless_mbp> global versions wouldn't protect anyone from legal liability at all
Oct 13 09:42:26 <timeless_mbp> anyone dumb enough to suggest that *would* be slapped by the lawyers
Oct 13 09:42:28 <RobbieThe1st> Wouldn't it be the user's fault then?
Oct 13 09:42:37 <timeless_mbp> probably not
Oct 13 09:43:06 <Appiah> eeeep I dont wanna be slapped by lawyers =(
Oct 13 09:43:09 <jarkkom> legal system in middle east where that is pressing issue doesn't quite work that way
Oct 13 09:43:15 <RobbieThe1st> If the user manages to download a version(or modifiy it themselves) that's not designed for their region/device, its still Nokia's fault?
Oct 13 09:43:25 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st:  often it is
Oct 13 09:43:40 <timeless_mbp> e.g. if the user takes a  nokia phone and uses it to crash a cellular network
Oct 13 09:43:46 <timeless_mbp> nokia will get the blame
Oct 13 09:43:46 <RST38h> timeless: There is a version control system to make merging easier
Oct 13 09:44:03 <timeless_mbp> RST38h: ever tried merging 2000 changes?
Oct 13 09:44:06 <Appiah> wait , so they can punish companies for using open OSs?
Oct 13 09:44:07 <RobbieThe1st> Then, how does Nokia protect itself?
Oct 13 09:44:20 <RST38h> And if some developers do not do frequent commits of their work, they are doing their work wrong
Oct 13 09:44:22 <timeless_mbp> timeless-mbp:accesssec timeless$ grep '^@@' .hg/patches/*|wc -l
Oct 13 09:44:22 <timeless_mbp>      918
Oct 13 09:44:33 <timeless_mbp> so i only had 918 changes
Oct 13 09:44:37 <timeless_mbp> not 2000 changes
Oct 13 09:44:40 <RobbieThe1st> Appiah: It would be more like blaming Microsoft because someone got a virus and it brought down their network
Oct 13 09:44:48 <RST38h> timeless: Yes, I did. Hence, frequent commits of work-in-progress.
Oct 13 09:44:48 <timeless_mbp> but if you have a couple of pending changes of your own...
Oct 13 09:44:49 <jarkkom> Appiah, in many countries they can and will punish companies for whatever reason they feel like, just look at issues RIM is having right now
Oct 13 09:45:09 <timeless_mbp> jarkkom++
Oct 13 09:45:22 <Appiah> RIM jarkkom ?
Oct 13 09:45:24 <timeless_mbp> Appiah: please don't assume the world is rational
Oct 13 09:45:32 <Appiah> timeless_mbp: I try not to
Oct 13 09:45:36 <timeless_mbp> and please don't assume that the only part of the world that isn't rational is corporations
Oct 13 09:45:40 <RobbieThe1st> huh; what happens if the company doesn't have a presence in the area?
Oct 13 09:45:41 <timeless_mbp> Appiah:  google RIM UAE
Oct 13 09:45:53 <timeless_mbp> RobbieThe1st: global companies *want* to be able to have a presence
Oct 13 09:45:57 <crashanddie> RobbieThe1st, actually, if Microsoft had a contract with someone to provide a "secure operating system" that in any way "would not bring down their network", then they could
Oct 13 09:46:08 <timeless_mbp> and ignoring that, it can mean that all of their employees are forbidden to travel there
Oct 13 09:46:16 <timeless_mbp> otherwise they might risk imprisonment
Oct 13 09:46:29 <Appiah> err
Oct 13 09:46:31 <Appiah> censorship
Oct 13 09:46:39 <timeless_mbp> Appiah:  um, yeah
Oct 13 09:46:39 <Appiah> *sigh*
Oct 13 09:46:49 <timeless_mbp> the real world is not the utopia you think it is
Oct 13 09:46:58 <timeless_mbp> look at China
Oct 13 09:47:01 <RobbieThe1st> crashanddie: Yet, I don't think Nokia(etc) has ever said that their device/os is perfectly secure? How could that work then?
Oct 13 09:47:04 <Appiah> woaah I never thought the world was an utopia
Oct 13 09:47:07 <RST38h> it is the utopia you do not think it is
Oct 13 09:47:10 <timeless_mbp> a guy gets a nobel prize or something, his wife gets sent to prison
Oct 13 09:47:20 <RobbieThe1st> And yea, things need to be changed. Probably forcefully.
Oct 13 09:47:32 <RST38h> well, he has got his nobel prize exactly for risking to be sent to prizon
Oct 13 09:47:41 <RST38h> So, I do not see how this is irrational
Oct 13 09:47:54 <timeless_mbp> there was another case somewhere else in SE Asia where a guy got into further trouble because someone else tried to *visit* him
Oct 13 09:48:18 <timeless_mbp> RST38h: his wife didn't get a prize
Oct 13 09:48:20 <timeless_mbp> just prison
Oct 13 09:48:24 <RST38h> Well, next time Osama bin Laden tries visiting YOU, make sure you cover the aftermatch in your blog
Oct 13 09:48:33 <RST38h> (if you will still have one)
Oct 13 09:48:45 <timeless_mbp> i think my blog's web server is currently down
Oct 13 09:48:58 <RST38h> Well, lacking the guy himself, his family is the next logical target
Oct 13 09:49:15 <timeless_mbp> ...
Oct 13 09:49:23 <RST38h> So, no, the Chinese may be cruel, but they are by no means absurd
Oct 13 09:49:25 <timeless_mbp> anyway
Oct 13 09:49:28 <timeless_mbp> lacking the company
Oct 13 09:49:33 <timeless_mbp> the next logical target is empoyees
Oct 13 09:49:38 <timeless_mbp> to use RST38h's logic for my point
Oct 13 09:49:47 <timeless_mbp> which was exactly what i wanted to express
Oct 13 09:49:49 <RST38h> Instead, try that US kid who brought a toy gun to school and has been banned from the state school system for a year now
Oct 13 09:50:08 <RST38h> Actually, employees are a piss poor target
Oct 13 09:50:11 <timeless_mbp> Appiah: fwiw, a colleague of mine couldn't visit the US for a while
Oct 13 09:50:18 <timeless_mbp> because his company had pending litigation
Oct 13 09:50:26 <RobbieThe1st> It seems very hard to do anything multi-national; have -any- features different on a per-region basis...
Oct 13 09:50:29 <timeless_mbp> if he visited, he'd have been stuck in jail until the trial was resolved
Oct 13 09:50:30 <RST38h> Although they can be used as such at the times of dire need. See Russian Government vs. British Petroleum case
Oct 13 09:50:43 <timeless_mbp> so don't think that this is a SE-Asia or ME only thing
Oct 13 09:51:03 <timeless_mbp> employees/companies are affected even in the "civilized" world
Oct 13 09:51:34 <timeless_mbp> countries do not like to be messed with
Oct 13 09:51:36 <RST38h> You want highranking employees though
Oct 13 09:51:46 <RST38h> I.e. yourself are not at risk
Oct 13 09:51:51 <RST38h> (or me, for this reason)
Oct 13 09:51:52 <timeless_mbp> and they generally do not care who they hurt
Oct 13 09:52:14 <timeless_mbp> RST38h:  when i say colleague, i mean a fellow engineer of roughly the same pay grade as me, working in my team
Oct 13 09:52:23 <RST38h> Well, a state is not a person, so normal human taboos (like ethics) do not apply
Oct 13 09:52:34 <timeless_mbp> sure a country will try to take the highest person it can
Oct 13 09:52:46 <timeless_mbp> arresting a CEO is much better than a janitor
Oct 13 09:52:52 <RST38h> Corollary: When you see a state make a stately move, run for your life :)
Oct 13 09:53:02 <timeless_mbp> but if all you can get is a secretary, you might take it
Oct 13 09:53:16 <RST38h> Arresting a secretary or an engineer is useless
Oct 13 09:53:26 <timeless_mbp> depends
Oct 13 09:53:30 <RST38h> I mean, some stupid middle eastern monarchy may do it on a whim
Oct 13 09:54:13 <RST38h> But states like China or Russia will either go for the top manager or some systemic move that prevents company from functioning
Oct 13 09:54:15 <timeless_mbp> RST38h:  have you read "On the Wings of Eagles"?
Oct 13 09:54:21 <RST38h> No
Oct 13 09:54:23 <timeless_mbp> some companies do care about their employees
Oct 13 09:54:38 <timeless_mbp> EDS apparently was one
Oct 13 09:54:47 <timeless_mbp> (pretty amazing story btw, worth the read)
Oct 13 09:55:12 <RST38h> EDS? Yea, right... :)
Oct 13 09:55:24 * RST38h will not comment on this particular statement :)
Oct 13 09:56:24 <timeless_mbp> RST38h: yeah, general views of EDS aside
Oct 13 09:56:38 <timeless_mbp> what they did there was good
Oct 13 09:56:48 <jarkkom> it isn't that long ago when bunch of nokia siemens guys got arrested for couple of weeks once because Iran and UAE are arguing about bunch of islands
Oct 13 09:57:11 <jarkkom> their fishing trip included extra vacation time in iran
Oct 13 09:57:54 <timeless_mbp> heh
Oct 13 09:58:04 * timeless_mbp shouldn't be laughing … at all
Oct 13 09:59:56 <timeless_mbp> http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Iran+arrests+three+Nokia+Siemens+employees+in+Persian+Gulf/1135227804843
Oct 13 10:00:01 <timeless_mbp> seems to be jarkkom's item
Oct 13 10:00:57 <timeless_mbp> i should note that Nokia Maps isn't very good
Oct 13 10:01:07 <timeless_mbp> you can try it yourself, you can visit "Detroit, Canada"
Oct 13 10:01:10 <timeless_mbp> ...
Oct 13 10:01:42 <timeless_mbp> (technically that's really more of a German sourced feature than a Finnish sourced feature, but...)
Oct 13 10:03:52 <jpinx-eeepc> Ha!  Try using the maps here :(
Oct 13 10:04:03 <Appiah> timeless_mbp: had a friend apply for a student visa (US) and waited like the instruction said some days for (maybe it was 3) for a response. after 5 days he sent another one since he didnt get any response. He got a answer 1 day after day and they declined him beacuse he sent 2 :)
Oct 13 10:04:21 <timeless_mbp> heh
Oct 13 10:04:41 <RST38h> timeless: The keyword is Iran.
Oct 13 10:04:48 <timeless_mbp> RST38h: *shrug*
Oct 13 10:04:51 <timeless_mbp> UAE isn't much better
Oct 13 10:04:55 <RST38h> Same
Oct 13 10:05:01 <timeless_mbp> RIM ended up w/ trouble in *most* ME countries
Oct 13 10:05:09 <RST38h> Petty middle eastern monarchies, Do not go there.
Oct 13 10:05:19 <RST38h> Same for most of the Africa,
Oct 13 10:06:26 <RST38h> And yes, I can tell you a few really savory stories about people getting in trouble in the US, straight out of the blue
Oct 13 10:06:30 <timeless_mbp> of note, Iran isn't a monarchy :)
Oct 13 10:06:41 <timeless_mbp> (not that the difference matters)
Oct 13 10:06:46 <RST38h> Not yet, right
Oct 13 10:06:58 <timeless_mbp> btw, democracies in those countries wouldn't make things better
Oct 13 10:06:58 <RST38h> Should go through at least one hereditary power transfer
Oct 13 10:07:17 <timeless_mbp> RST38h: yeah well… until then it isn't technically a monarchy
Oct 13 10:07:22 <RST38h> That last statement is too deep for the scope of this discussion
Oct 13 10:07:27 <timeless_mbp> and even then, that means you're calling N. Korea a monarchy
Oct 13 10:07:33 <RST38h> Yes, I am
Oct 13 10:07:37 <RST38h> Any problems with that?
Oct 13 10:07:51 <timeless_mbp> Iraq and Afghanistan are "democracies", but that doesn't help
Oct 13 10:07:59 <marmoute> RST38h: monargie as nothing to do with hereditary transfert
Oct 13 10:08:02 <timeless_mbp> you need a rational educated middle class
Oct 13 10:08:17 * timeless_mbp lets marmoute cover that point
Oct 13 10:08:20 <RST38h> Iraq and Afghanistan are two US-occupied shitholes
Oct 13 10:08:40 <RST38h> And, in the latter case, the US helped making it a shithole in the 80s.
Oct 13 10:08:56 <RST38h> Otherwise, it would be a semi-normal post-socialist failed state by now. :)
Oct 13 10:10:20 <Myrtti> oh christ, I read about Facebook new security features for 5 minutes, and you've already moved over to the crazyhouse stuff
Oct 13 10:10:30 <timeless_mbp> heh
Oct 13 10:14:50 <marmoute> One day, our beloved french president dismiss monarchical accusation by saying "I'm not the son of my predecessors". when people raised that monarchy as nothing to do with this he quickly evade the question.
Oct 13 10:14:55 <marmoute> This was "fun"
Oct 13 10:16:04 <timeless_mbp> url-ref?
Oct 13 10:17:24 <marmoute> timeless_mbp: for the french stuff or the hereditary stuff ?
Oct 13 10:17:49 <timeless_mbp> the whole blob?
Oct 13 10:19:48 <marmoute> The french stuff is quite old I'm not sure to find it. The hereridary stuff: Any monarch definition in a decent dictionnary
Oct 13 10:21:15 <TermanaN900> That's funny, you think being the french president he would just surrender to the questions
Oct 13 10:21:34 <TermanaN900> YEEAHH
Oct 13 10:21:44 <marmoute> timeless_mbp: I can't find non french report.
Oct 13 10:29:45 <alterego> pahaha: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/13/film_week/
Oct 13 10:44:29 <lardman|home> alterego: looking for nsfw.com and accidentally went to nsfw.org? ;)
Oct 13 10:45:13 <alterego> lardman: :D
Oct 13 10:45:30 * lardman hasn't looked at nsfw.com yet, is it work-safe?
Oct 13 10:48:18 <SpeedEvil> yes
Oct 13 10:48:27 <SpeedEvil> Apart from all the nsfw
Oct 13 10:48:46 <lardman> hmm
Oct 13 10:49:25 <lardman> note to self, never trust SpeedEvil ;)
Oct 13 10:55:00 <jpinx-eeepc> dammit - anyone got the usb networking to really work - including the use of a laptop hosts wifi as the gateway for things like application manager?
Oct 13 10:55:11 <pupnik> I think Nokia is making a mistake not saying N900 will officially get 'meego' as an upgrade.
Oct 13 10:55:26 <pupnik> I mean... Build a bridge, guys.
Oct 13 10:55:42 <openstandards> lmao @ SpeedEvil, thanks.... good thing i ain't at work :)
Oct 13 10:56:42 <pupnik> So what are the market surveys saying people want smaller phones with less battery life
Oct 13 10:56:50 <openstandards> also would give them a good testing platform too
Oct 13 10:57:49 <openstandards> I like the size of the n900, and i just keep an extra battery in my wallet :)
Oct 13 10:59:00 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, I have, but in my setup I have desktop going through wired
Oct 13 10:59:19 <psycho_oreos> and for that you need dummy networking, its explained in that same usb networking page
Oct 13 11:01:58 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: yea - I tried the dummy network, but it didn't seem to do it -- maybe I'll try again...
Oct 13 11:02:29 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, if its successful you should have dummy network option under networks
Oct 13 11:02:47 <jpinx-eeepc> openstandards: that means powering down the whole device - a very poor solution
Oct 13 11:02:54 <psycho_oreos> and if its right it should be selected with personal IP address showing the ip address of usb0
Oct 13 11:03:11 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: yea - i got that before,. Maybe i need to try different options on it
Oct 13 11:03:51 <openstandards> jpinx-eeepc, the battery life isn't too bad if you don't keep on your wifi...etc
Oct 13 11:04:07 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: ok - thanks - I'll persevere tonight and see if I can make it behave
Oct 13 11:04:17 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, well in the wiki for that there's two ways, I think they initially mention using null but they later recommended dummy and then specified ways in which you can get dummy network to appear
Oct 13 11:04:37 <jpinx-eeepc> openstandards: I have stuff running all the time, even when not online, so powering down is not an option
Oct 13 11:04:56 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: yes - I was using dummy
Oct 13 11:05:31 <openstandards> fair enough, then those external battery packs exist
Oct 13 11:06:15 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: I use thiss eeepc as a thin client to ssh  in for the sake of the kbd and screen, and for now the wifi - 'cos it's a crappy public wifi with web-based login
Oct 13 11:07:02 <jpinx-eeepc> openstandards: 50% increase in the bulk of the battery would probably double it's capacity
Oct 13 11:07:14 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, lol you can still use n900 solely to connect those public wifi, maccas out where I live have similar setup but really its easy to setup usb networking
Oct 13 11:07:19 <jpinx-eeepc> and only add maybe 1mm to the phone
Oct 13 11:08:17 <openstandards> bigger batteries do exist but i don't think you can use the camera then, bad bad design flaw in the after market battery
Oct 13 11:08:27 <MohammadAG51> DocScrutinizer, ping
Oct 13 11:08:57 <DocScrutinizer> ...
Oct 13 11:09:19 <MohammadAG51> s/.../pong/
Oct 13 11:09:53 <MohammadAG51> got a ph0, disassembled the device, sorta, but I hesitated to take out the ribbon
Oct 13 11:10:16 <DocScrutinizer> nod
Oct 13 11:10:42 <MohammadAG51> reassembled it, screen's still moving
Oct 13 11:11:06 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
Oct 13 11:11:22 <MohammadAG51> I might remove the ribbon
Oct 13 11:11:24 <DocScrutinizer> proly slider mech defect
Oct 13 11:11:31 <MohammadAG51> then tighten the slider itself
Oct 13 11:12:01 <MohammadAG51> i'm not surprised really, fell a long distance yesterday
Oct 13 11:12:15 <MohammadAG51> car braked, so it flew a bit
Oct 13 11:12:38 <MohammadAG51> btw DocScrutinizer, I cycled the bouncer, no more lag
Oct 13 11:12:50 <MohammadAG51> (jumped to next server)
Oct 13 11:12:57 <openstandards> has anyone tried the neopwn packet injection driver
Oct 13 11:12:58 <openstandards> ?
Oct 13 11:12:59 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
Oct 13 11:13:14 <MohammadAG51> openstandards, yes, it works
Oct 13 11:13:22 <MohammadAG51> I cracked my school's WEP
Oct 13 11:13:46 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG51: they will shoot you one day
Oct 13 11:14:27 <MohammadAG51> DocScrutinizer, I used hostmode to pull off some docs from the teacher's flash, I told her about it after I pulled them though lol
Oct 13 11:14:35 <MohammadAG51> noobs!
Oct 13 11:15:38 <openstandards> takes hours to write to sd :(
Oct 13 11:16:04 <MohammadAG51> dd from sd to eMMC, whole device will hang
Oct 13 11:16:16 <DocScrutinizer> takes hours to cp from sd to eMMC
Oct 13 11:16:44 <MohammadAG51> DocScrutinizer, the whole device crashed when I wanted to dd if=SD of=somewhereoneMMC
Oct 13 11:16:54 <DocScrutinizer> no need to dd, a simple cp will do
Oct 13 11:16:56 <MohammadAG51> I only had 1MB of files on the SD...
Oct 13 11:17:14 <openstandards> thats what i'm doing tar to /dev/mm ...... started at 9ish this morning its now noon
Oct 13 11:17:17 <Myrtti> dd has a tendency to be oversimplifying
Oct 13 11:17:22 <MohammadAG51> DocScrutinizer, and for hostmode, mounting on /media/somefolder WILL rape the CPU
Oct 13 11:17:27 <Myrtti> and thus making things more difficult
Oct 13 11:17:38 <MohammadAG51> tracker kicks in, indexes the flash drive or DVD
Oct 13 11:17:46 <MohammadAG51> then thumbnailer follows
Oct 13 11:18:07 <MohammadAG51> when you remove the flash, it thinks you deleted the files, reindexes whole device
Oct 13 11:18:12 <DocScrutinizer> cp -a did same for me
Oct 13 11:18:26 <DocScrutinizer> after 10 min the last process froze
Oct 13 11:19:29 <DocScrutinizer> swap being usual suspect
Oct 13 11:19:45 <MohammadAG51> yeah, and the kernel bug
Oct 13 11:20:12 <MohammadAG51> iirc X-Fade said the issue with writing to eMMC was reduced in 1.3
Oct 13 11:20:44 <ShadowJK> People refer to a "kernel bug", but the one I've seen quoted is a bug introduced after the ancient kernel on n900?
Oct 13 11:20:48 <DocScrutinizer> issue with writing ? have no, over ass rage I got err 13MB/s
Oct 13 11:20:56 <RobbieThe1st> Any -right- way to remove the thumbnailer? As in, any way to make it work "on-demand", and just thumbnail as icons are shown?
Oct 13 11:21:08 <ShadowJK> And really only applies to multi-device situations
Oct 13 11:21:18 <ShadowJK> where one device is significantly faster/slower than the other
Oct 13 11:23:42 * ShadowJK wants one device per function :(
Oct 13 11:23:48 <ShadowJK> dedicated swap device
Oct 13 11:24:04 <ShadowJK> dedicated application device, and device for media storage
Oct 13 11:24:19 * DocScrutinizer tries to calculate how long it takes minimum to fill a class2 16G uSD, fails, wanders off for coffee and a hot lemmon
Oct 13 11:26:39 <ShadowJK> 2.5 hours or so
Oct 13 11:27:08 <wazd> hi all
Oct 13 11:27:12 <Stskeeps> lo wazd
Oct 13 11:27:17 <ShadowJK> About 6 with write-seek heavy load going on simultaneously on the source card :)
Oct 13 11:27:22 <ShadowJK> 6-12..
Oct 13 11:27:42 <DocScrutinizer> :nod:
Oct 13 11:28:21 <ShadowJK> I accidentally bought a Class 2 microsd once
Oct 13 11:28:36 <ShadowJK> it actually felt faster than a class 6 fullsize SD card
Oct 13 11:28:40 <ShadowJK> in my N800, swapping to it
Oct 13 11:29:04 <ShadowJK> I wonder if this class6 SD is dual/quad channel or something, would explain why it seems slower
Oct 13 11:29:22 <DocScrutinizer> larger blocks
Oct 13 11:29:31 <ShadowJK> 8G vs 16G
Oct 13 11:29:33 <ShadowJK> could be
Oct 13 11:30:09 <wazd> Jaffa: ping? :)
Oct 13 11:30:16 <neekers> to set up using a c compiler and c++ compiler, is this the proper command? sb2-init -c /usr/bin/qemu-arm armv7 /home/nick/arm-2010q1/bin/arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc /home/nick/arm-2010q1/bin/arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++
Oct 13 11:32:08 <ShadowJK> scary
Oct 13 11:32:23 <neekers> heh
Oct 13 11:32:30 <neekers> what i wrote?
Oct 13 11:32:48 <ShadowJK> yah
Oct 13 11:33:46 <neekers> i keep getting a /lib/cpp fails sanity check when i run .configure in sb2
Oct 13 11:35:13 <neekers> i added the second compiler with sb2-init and it didn't complain but it didn't solve the sanity check error either...
Oct 13 11:36:17 <neekers> i know that sb2 lets you change the target on the fly but can you change the compiler?
Oct 13 11:36:47 <ShadowJK> I'm entirely clueless about sb and sb2 :)
Oct 13 11:37:07 <neekers> don't you use sb2 with maemo?
Oct 13 11:37:08 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: I've got libicd-network-null installed and done the two commands specified, but not the last two optional ones.  What needs restarting to make it effective?
Oct 13 11:37:59 <MohammadAG51> hmm
Oct 13 11:38:15 <MohammadAG51> how do I convert an mp4 file to mpe
Oct 13 11:38:17 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: and done killall icd2
Oct 13 11:38:17 <MohammadAG51> mp3
Oct 13 11:38:19 <ShadowJK> I use the vm image that comes preinstalled with something painful..
Oct 13 11:38:52 <DocScrutinizer> how do i convert a zoo into a rabbit?
Oct 13 11:39:06 <RST38h> Doc: Kill every animal but the rabbit?
Oct 13 11:39:14 <neekers> meat grinder
Oct 13 11:39:18 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, you should see null network or something like that, do you see that entry?
Oct 13 11:39:25 <DocScrutinizer> look, with mp4 it's the same :-P
Oct 13 11:39:39 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, under internet connection
Oct 13 11:39:41 <jpinx-eeepc> yep - selected that
Oct 13 11:39:56 <MohammadAG51> DocScrutinizer, seriously, I want to remove the video stream
Oct 13 11:40:06 <DocScrutinizer> kill it :-P
Oct 13 11:40:32 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, try surfing the web now through n900, it should use yer laptop's wifi
Oct 13 11:40:48 <ShadowJK> mplayer file.mp4 -ao pcm -aofile sound.wav -vo null -vc dummy ; lame sound.wav sound.mp3 ; rm sound.wav
Oct 13 11:41:05 <DocScrutinizer> seriously NFC. I guess some video edit apps might have an option to save audio separately
Oct 13 11:41:09 <jpinx-eeepc> it does . but it's application manager that was not connecting before
Oct 13 11:41:37 <jpinx-eeepc> running appl mngr now....
Oct 13 11:41:52 <pupnik> Just saw a 1987 Cheers where a joke was made out of Frasier's brand-new _Cell_Phone_ ringing in his suitcase, and Carla picking up the payphone in the back of the bar because she was fooled by the ringing of the cell phone.
Oct 13 11:42:01 <Jaffa> wazd: pong
Oct 13 11:42:34 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, imo if the browser works through it then application manager or whichever other applications that utilises the dbus should be able to connect by now
Oct 13 11:42:36 <mece> MohammadAG51, something like mplayer -dumpaudio video.mp4 -dumpfile sound.wav
Oct 13 11:42:55 <ShadowJK> mece, that dumps the raw audio, in whatever format it is
Oct 13 11:42:56 <mece> oh, ShadowJK's was better :)
Oct 13 11:42:57 * DocScrutinizer utters a toast on ShadowJK
Oct 13 11:43:15 <ShadowJK> and raw aac usually "doesn't work" since information required for playback is stored in the container
Oct 13 11:43:32 <mece> ShadowJK, good to know :)
Oct 13 11:43:36 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: I had the browser working before, but not app mngr
Oct 13 11:43:53 <ShadowJK> it'd work to extract mp3 though, because each mp3 frame is essentially self contained
Oct 13 11:44:20 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: it says it's checking for updates...  very slow....
Oct 13 11:44:37 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, yeah which is weird imo, when I checked the connection with browser its usually a tell tale sign
Oct 13 11:44:44 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, yup HAM is like that :)
Oct 13 11:45:10 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: ok - progress bar is moving -- just ;)
Oct 13 11:45:32 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: what did you say is your daywork?
Oct 13 11:45:37 <ShadowJK> I didn't
Oct 13 11:45:43 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, had it been me I would have gkrellm running on the USB host to see the network activity
Oct 13 11:45:57 <DocScrutinizer> I'm sure you occasionally mentioned it
Oct 13 11:46:11 <smooph> Hi anybody here try the kubuntu mobile for the n900
Oct 13 11:46:12 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: it says (no updates available)
Oct 13 11:46:14 <smooph> ?
Oct 13 11:46:33 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: but that could mean anything...
Oct 13 11:47:11 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, yeah but if there would be an error it would show that and if you check under the repositories instead of green circle you get red circle with white asterisk marked on the repository lines
Oct 13 11:47:15 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: whatever it is, your boss oughta be damn happy about you
Oct 13 11:47:39 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: where do the repos show up?
Oct 13 11:47:55 <MohammadAG51> ShadowJK, thanks
Oct 13 11:48:30 <ShadowJK> Now I'm getting paranoid, what have I done
Oct 13 11:48:49 <jpinx-eeepc> Bah! Operation in progress - please wait :(
Oct 13 11:49:42 <DocScrutinizer> hehe, demonstrating a rarely found level of knowledge and professionalism for a long continuous period - that's all
Oct 13 11:49:44 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, lol I have CPU/MEM status bar for that, after HAM gets the files it needs to do loads of stuff which usually hogs CPU.. but after hogging CPU it dives down and its generally ok for one to check the repos
Oct 13 11:50:52 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: so how do I know when it's munching or just sulking?
Oct 13 11:51:24 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, you can't imo.. you can only tell if its busy or not with HAM and using the CPU/MEM status applet
Oct 13 11:52:04 <jpinx-eeepc> where do I get that?
Oct 13 11:52:15 <jpinx-eeepc> if HAM isn't behaving :(
Oct 13 11:52:27 <MohammadAG51> any recommednations for video editors?
Oct 13 11:52:35 <MohammadAG51> need to mix music with a video
Oct 13 11:52:51 <DocScrutinizer> load applet is mandatory, like RPM meter in a car
Oct 13 11:52:54 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, its in the normal repos afaik, I didn't get just that I got one that bundles that with screenshot and video recording tool
Oct 13 11:53:07 <MohammadAG51> I drive without an RPM meter
Oct 13 11:53:12 * psycho_oreos checks his under HAM
Oct 13 11:53:44 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: Hmm . applicaation manager has the little rotsting wand thing going on here....
Oct 13 11:54:24 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, yeah its still doing its job lol
Oct 13 11:54:26 <DocScrutinizer> jpinx-eeepc: load applet
Oct 13 11:55:03 <jpinx-eeepc> DocScrutinizer: system tools?
Oct 13 11:55:09 <psycho_oreos> oh mine is already done (despite enabling red pill mode)
Oct 13 11:55:13 <DocScrutinizer> jpinx-eeepc: HAM for me takes like 5min to 'open'
Oct 13 11:55:20 <jpinx-eeepc> whic catalogue
Oct 13 11:55:49 <jpinx-eeepc> what's the name of the applet in the listing?
Oct 13 11:56:01 <DocScrutinizer> jpinx-eeepc: no idea really, I'd guess load applet should be in extras now
Oct 13 11:56:06 <jpinx-eeepc> sheesh I wish it was just apt-get install foo
Oct 13 11:56:10 <psycho_oreos> yup as DocScrutinizer said, load applet.. and go into All, start typing in the letters for the name of the app
Oct 13 11:56:18 <psycho_oreos> you can
Oct 13 11:56:19 <DocScrutinizer> name: "load applet"
Oct 13 11:57:28 <psycho_oreos> load-applet it is if you're doing it via apt-get in CLI
Oct 13 11:57:36 <jpinx-eeepc> I lovve it - "do you agree that this might totally brick your device"  WTF?  :)
Oct 13 11:57:37 <DocScrutinizer> let me goog... err apt-cache search that for you :-)
Oct 13 11:57:59 <jpinx-eeepc> it's coming....
Oct 13 11:58:06 <jpinx-eeepc> but then - so is Xmas....
Oct 13 11:58:27 <psycho_oreos> reminds me of some bloke ranting on in the tmo threads about putting as much warnings on extras-devel and extras-testing repos
Oct 13 11:58:56 <DocScrutinizer> IroN900:~# apt-cache search load|grep applet
Oct 13 11:58:58 <DocScrutinizer> load-applet - Show CPU and memory usage, take screenshots, record screencasts.
Oct 13 11:59:30 <jpinx-eeepc> w00t - it says it's installed
Oct 13 11:59:50 <DocScrutinizer> what did w0ot to it?
Oct 13 11:59:54 <jpinx-eeepc> so HAM must be using the wifi on my laptop over the usb network
Oct 13 11:59:57 <DocScrutinizer> :-P
Oct 13 12:00:21 * jpinx-eeepc updates again....
Oct 13 12:00:54 <DocScrutinizer> yes, a particularly nice and annoying part
Oct 13 12:01:06 <jpinx-eeepc> yikes - there's all kinds of little gremlins in the taskbar now
Oct 13 12:01:10 <openstandards> is usb host mode working with the n900 now?
Oct 13 12:01:24 <psycho_oreos> well there you go usb networking is working now
Oct 13 12:01:25 <DocScrutinizer> kinda, yes
Oct 13 12:01:28 <jpinx-eeepc> openstandards: yes -- as of 5 minut6es ago :)
Oct 13 12:02:05 <openstandards> kinda?
Oct 13 12:02:06 <openstandards> :)
Oct 13 12:02:13 <DocScrutinizer> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=824197#post824197
Oct 13 12:02:45 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: ok - two little bargraphs - which one is telling me what?
Oct 13 12:02:54 <openstandards> i love the n900
Oct 13 12:03:12 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, first bar (left) is CPU, second bar (right) is MEM
Oct 13 12:03:13 <jpinx-eeepc> DocScrutinizer: that page should be in the topic here ;)
Oct 13 12:03:15 <openstandards> the community that works on it is outstanding
Oct 13 12:03:29 <jpinx-eeepc> OOooer - red cpu
Oct 13 12:03:31 <DocScrutinizer> jpinx-eeepc: duh, why?
Oct 13 12:03:47 <jpinx-eeepc> updating again
Oct 13 12:04:11 <DocScrutinizer> jpinx-eeepc: aiui red means system cpu load
Oct 13 12:04:11 <jpinx-eeepc> psycho_oreos: cool - that's making sense now :)  thanks a bunch :)
Oct 13 12:04:49 * jpinx-eeepc fires up a few apps to see the redbars...
Oct 13 12:05:53 <jpinx-eeepc> Hmm .. of course you can only see the bars in the desktop toolbar, not when the app window is open...  :/
Oct 13 12:05:54 <DocScrutinizer> while true; do :; done
Oct 13 12:06:05 <DocScrutinizer> watch cpu hit the roof
Oct 13 12:06:14 <psycho_oreos> jpinx-eeepc, no worries.. and if you see red flashing (only the top most block on one bar or two if at worst) it means its using almost all CPU load
Oct 13 12:07:04 <jpinx-eeepc> yea - i guessed that ;)  Is there a way to see the load bars when an app window is open?
Oct 13 12:07:14 <DocScrutinizer> make sure you got a second xterm open, and maybe nice the loop suggested above :-) otherwise killing it might get hard
Oct 13 12:07:21 <dolp> QMessageManager countMessages function is brokeeeeen.. anyone tried it?
Oct 13 12:07:56 <jpinx-eeepc> DocScrutinizer: that'll make it fry eggs :p
Oct 13 12:08:08 <DocScrutinizer> yep :-P
Oct 13 12:08:59 * jpinx-eeepc goes for food
Oct 13 12:09:13 <jpinx-eeepc> testing unplug/replug....u
Oct 13 12:09:40 <DocScrutinizer> jpinx-eeepc: (is there a way) sure, usually the status bar is visible with app windows as well, no?
Oct 13 12:09:52 <jpinx-eeepc> nope
Oct 13 12:09:58 <_trine> has anyone else noticed recaller making several identical recordings for 1 event ?
Oct 13 12:10:20 <jpinx-eeepc> DocScrutinizer: my bad - I had it fullscreen
Oct 13 12:10:25 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
Oct 13 12:11:07 <DocScrutinizer> friggin bs apps like ovi maps or canola think they know better how to display this :-/
Oct 13 12:11:51 <jpinx-eeepc> maps and stuff are totally useless to me out here
Oct 13 12:11:58 <jpinx-eeepc> USA and europe only I suppose
Oct 13 12:12:06 <DocScrutinizer> how silly is *that*? go for fullscreen, then emulate the top bar
Oct 13 12:13:57 <jpinx-eeepc> the browser is the only app I have found that actually goes fullscreen - the rest still reserve top or bottom...
Oct 13 12:14:04 * DocScrutinizer is cursing indicator LED not blinking blue despite inbound mail - just a green charging indication
Oct 13 12:15:19 <DocScrutinizer> jpinx-eeepc: ovi maps also is fullscreen *always*
Oct 13 12:15:58 <DocScrutinizer> the status area shown upper left in ovi maps screen is a fake
Oct 13 12:16:29 <jpinx-eeepc> I Hmm'
Oct 13 12:16:35 * jpinx-eeepc fires up maps
Oct 13 12:17:00 <jpinx-eeepc> looking for GPS...
Oct 13 12:17:16 <DocScrutinizer> xchat easily goes fullscreen on ctrl-enter, as does xterm on klicking the toolbar fullscreen icon
Oct 13 12:17:27 <jpinx-eeepc> boy is it slow compared to te iphone
Oct 13 12:18:17 <jpinx-eeepc> irssi is in an Xterm, so reserves a bottom bar for virtual Esc Ctrl etc
Oct 13 12:18:48 <DocScrutinizer> :nod:
Oct 13 12:19:15 <jpinx-eeepc> heh - maps is only about 1000kms out
Oct 13 12:19:31 <jpinx-eeepc> it's got me in HoChiMinh
Oct 13 12:20:08 <DocScrutinizer> one of the worst things in ovi maps is it's re-rendering all the street names for every single pixel of window moving - useless cpu load
Oct 13 12:21:09 <jpinx-eeepc> yea - it's trying to render the whole of SE Asia in pretty colours now...
Oct 13 12:21:11 <DocScrutinizer> jpinx-eeepc: odds are it gets you to "center of your country" until a real GPS fix got established
Oct 13 12:21:29 <_trine> has anyone had a problems with 'recaller' making multiple recordings ?
Oct 13 12:21:35 <jpinx-eeepc> I'll leave it running to see how it gets on
Oct 13 12:21:39 <DocScrutinizer> _trine: yes
Oct 13 12:22:00 <_trine> DocScrutinizer, was there a solution
Oct 13 12:22:10 <jpinx-eeepc> but it's just as well I am not lost in a taxi!! :)
Oct 13 12:22:30 <DocScrutinizer> _trine: reboot, and disable nottifications :-S
Oct 13 12:23:01 <_trine> DocScrutinizer, which modifications ?
Oct 13 12:23:37 <DocScrutinizer> notifying every 30s "ongoing record: 123456432_foo_bar.acc"
Oct 13 12:24:03 <_trine> DocScrutinizer, I dont understand
Oct 13 12:24:25 <DocScrutinizer> _trine: seems it's happening when I finish a call before far end answered
Oct 13 12:25:19 <_trine> I was wondering if there were multiple instances of 'recaller' somehow
Oct 13 12:26:07 <DocScrutinizer> _trine: my problem was recaller popping up a notification every 30s about "recording active: <name of file>", after I did a call and finished it without far end responding
Oct 13 12:26:29 <_trine> well its not done that yet here
Oct 13 12:26:48 <_trine> but it is making several recordings of the same event
Oct 13 12:26:49 <DocScrutinizer> the major PITA of recaller is it's running as a desktop widget
Oct 13 12:27:20 <jpinx-eeepc> dammit - cpu on red, stomach on empty :(
Oct 13 12:27:25 <_trine> DocScrutinizer, yes I agree but I dont know of anything better to do the same job
Oct 13 12:28:13 <DocScrutinizer> so aiui you a) got no proper distinct process to monitor, kill etc, and b) you probably actually get multiple recaller instances when you got multiple desktop widgets
Oct 13 12:29:44 <_trine> DocScrutinizer, yes I did have a widget on 2 different screens but I have corrected that now,, one of the widgets was hiding underneath another
Oct 13 12:29:58 <DocScrutinizer> see?
Oct 13 12:30:07 <DocScrutinizer> that's been the cause
Oct 13 12:30:49 <_trine> DocScrutinizer, yes I'm waiting for when I need to use my phone again to test that now
Oct 13 12:31:15 <_trine> I dont want to waste a call for just a test
Oct 13 12:31:44 <DocScrutinizer> some people exploiting that "bug" to have one recaller instance for phonecall recording, another one configured to be used as dictaphone etc
Oct 13 12:31:48 <_trine> I like the bar code reader app
Oct 13 12:32:40 <_trine> DocScrutinizer, thats a good idea I never thought of doing that
Oct 13 12:33:36 <DocScrutinizer> I actually kinda hate that concept, it's kinky
Oct 13 12:33:59 <DocScrutinizer> recaller should become a proper app, rather than a widget
Oct 13 12:34:32 <_trine> I tried 'recorder' app and thats terrible
Oct 13 12:34:47 <DocScrutinizer> with proper daemon started via initscript, to auto-record calls (or maybe even hook into dbus-scripting)
Oct 13 12:36:00 <DocScrutinizer> running a whole app (even multiple instances) under the cloak of hildon-desktop widget manager (whatever the real name of this one) is a disgusting idea
Oct 13 12:37:09 <fcrochik> DocScrutinizer51: you just gave me another idea for mycontacts: auto record calls from a group of contacts.... This way one can record for example just the work related calss
Oct 13 12:39:27 <DocScrutinizer> fcrochik: check barisione 's per contact ringtones pkg. It has plugin API to do other nice things depending on data stored to contacts
Oct 13 12:40:01 <fcrochik> DocScrutinizer51: tor
Oct 13 12:40:21 <DocScrutinizer> tor?
Oct 13 12:40:53 <fcrochik> DocScrutinizer51: I saw that but mycontacts (my app) does other stuff too....
Oct 13 12:40:56 <GAN900> Sponsorship emails sure are taking forever.
Oct 13 12:41:22 <DocScrutinizer> lo GAN900
Oct 13 12:41:30 <fcrochik> DocScrutinizer51: TOR=seems that communi on the n900 does not handle the tab right
Oct 13 12:43:48 <fcrochik> DocScrutinizer51: word prediction and TAB for nicknames needs some fine tunning
Oct 13 12:44:05 <dneary> amigadave, Ping?
Oct 13 12:44:19 <dneary> amigadave, I'm running through the getting started docs again
Oct 13 12:44:43 <dneary> & it seems like we're missing a "testing your package on your N900" section in the Packaging article
Oct 13 12:44:47 <dneary> What do you think?
Oct 13 12:47:40 <amigadave> dneary: pong
Oct 13 12:48:19 <amigadave> good idea, what sort of testing do you envisage?
Oct 13 12:48:28 <amigadave> looking at the package contents, testing installation, etc.?
Oct 13 12:51:05 <dneary> Well, I just tried to install hello.deb on my n900 and got "invalid package"
Oct 13 12:51:17 <dneary> Basically, how to copy a .deb onto the phone & install it
Oct 13 12:51:24 <dneary> bbiaw...
Oct 13 12:51:33 <dneary> (appointment)
Oct 13 12:51:41 <amigadave> ok
Oct 13 12:52:23 <_trine> dneary, from a console use dkpg -i app.deb
Oct 13 12:52:37 <_trine> dpkg
Oct 13 12:54:50 <DocScrutinizer51> damn, landlord cutting the ivy and now my phone landline is dead :-/
Oct 13 12:54:56 <MohammadAG> DocScrutinizer51, I couldn't resist, disassembled my device
Oct 13 12:54:59 <MohammadAG> and the ribbon
Oct 13 12:57:19 <GAN900> Hi, DocScrutinizer51.
Oct 13 12:57:44 <SpeedEvil> MohammadAG: for any reason?
Oct 13 12:58:28 <MohammadAG> yes, slider's a bit creaky, device fell twice in a month
Oct 13 12:58:45 <SpeedEvil> ah
Oct 13 12:58:51 <MohammadAG> one of those situations was close to yours, bed sheets
Oct 13 12:59:12 <SpeedEvil> The worst enemy!
Oct 13 12:59:18 <SpeedEvil> Do you happen to have it in a case?
Oct 13 12:59:32 <MohammadAG> nope
Oct 13 12:59:53 <MohammadAG> no scratches, it fell on a soft surface, but the slider has a ~1mm gap
Oct 13 13:00:09 <Stskeeps> soft surfaces are usually worse than hard surfaces
Oct 13 13:01:12 <ieatlint> DocScrutinizer51: haha... good thing you're not on dsl
Oct 13 13:01:32 <DocScrutinizer51> disassembling is easy. reassembling and not breaking it... isn't
Oct 13 13:02:32 <DocScrutinizer51> ieatlint: yeah, cursing the burriedness of "switch to wlan if available"
Oct 13 13:02:35 <crashanddie_> disassembling arm binary code is a bitch though
Oct 13 13:03:34 <Myrtti> I dropped my Nexus One on Sunday and it cracked a bit, and I was scared shit of "just push it back in place, dumbass"
Oct 13 13:03:50 <ieatlint> rj11 is easily repaired... just annoying
Oct 13 13:05:32 <DocScrutinizer51> it's not exactly rj11, but yes. He just called me announcing a 60min downtime to find a better path for the cable, now that it's cut anyway XD
Oct 13 13:05:36 <dsg> huh, my n900 just rebooted in my pocket
Oct 13 13:07:10 * DocScrutinizer51 pondering tethering N900 to LAN
Oct 13 13:12:53 <MohammadAG> DocScrutinizer51, and then god said, let there be light!
Oct 13 13:13:02 <MohammadAG> my N900 powered on xP
Oct 13 13:13:12 <jaska> and there was blue screen!
Oct 13 13:13:25 <MohammadAG> though seriously, WHY THE FUCK is the ribbon this light?
Oct 13 13:13:50 <ShadowJK> 128 grams
Oct 13 13:14:07 <MohammadAG> it's lighter than the tape
Oct 13 13:14:09 <ShadowJK> oops, 181
Oct 13 13:14:09 <SpeedEvil> More fatigue resistance I suspect
Oct 13 13:14:23 <SpeedEvil> Thicker generally means more strain onbending
Oct 13 13:17:01 <DocScrutinizer51> the flimpsy part is the b2b connector though, plus the piggybacked 2nd layer FPC jumper patch on there
Oct 13 13:17:07 <MohammadAG> true, but the PS3 uses almost the same ribbons (they don't clip like this though - they go in a latch and you seal that), and they're much heavier and bend a lot more
Oct 13 13:17:59 <DocScrutinizer51> PS3 got moving FPC? where?
Oct 13 13:18:09 <SpeedEvil> dvd?
Oct 13 13:18:24 <kerio> not a lot of people notice that
Oct 13 13:18:28 <kerio> because PS3 HAS NO GAEMS
Oct 13 13:19:29 <vis> there's tekken?
Oct 13 13:19:37 <vis> no need for other games
Oct 13 13:19:48 <kerio> pff tekken
Oct 13 13:20:07 <DocScrutinizer51> you'd bet the laser block FPC - which is the only one I see moving on a PS3 -  is a whole lot smaller and thinner than the screen ribbon in N900
Oct 13 13:20:12 <kerio> street fighter > tekken any day of the week
Oct 13 13:20:25 <kerio> DocScrutinizer51: slot loading drive
Oct 13 13:20:41 <DocScrutinizer51> kerio: so what?
Oct 13 13:20:49 <kerio> maybe that's the moving part
Oct 13 13:21:00 <kerio> i'd say the rest is pretty... static
Oct 13 13:21:04 <kerio> \_o_/
Oct 13 13:21:29 <kerio> MohammadAG: what else moves with a ribbon cable?
Oct 13 13:21:34 <kerio> i mean, in a ps3
Oct 13 13:21:55 <MohammadAG> moving? nothing
Oct 13 13:21:59 <n900-space> hi all
Oct 13 13:22:00 <MohammadAG> not moving, a lot
Oct 13 13:22:40 <MohammadAG> big fail
Oct 13 13:22:44 * MohammadAG disassembles again
Oct 13 13:22:51 <kerio> wait, why do they use ribbon cables for static things
Oct 13 13:23:08 <crashanddie_> because they're easier to assemble by machines
Oct 13 13:23:13 <DocScrutinizer51> kerio: it's usual nowadays
Oct 13 13:23:18 * RST38h yawns and sticks a screwdriver into whatever Muhammad is disassembling
Oct 13 13:23:30 <crashanddie_> It's Mohammad
Oct 13 13:24:07 <DocScrutinizer51> RST38h: start with your own N900?
Oct 13 13:25:22 <crashanddie_> http://www.freethunk.net/russells-teapot/jesus-meets-muhammad.jpg
Oct 13 13:25:30 <MohammadAG> kerio, ironic reason
Oct 13 13:25:43 <MohammadAG> so you don't use the drive on a PC, yet on the slim it's a SATA cable
Oct 13 13:26:05 <DarkNostril> i got some other funny religious things i found here
Oct 13 13:27:29 <ieatlint> crashanddie_: i'm often criticised for my tasteless and offensive jokes, but i think you definitely win today
Oct 13 13:28:01 <crashanddie_> How about you piss the fuck off and let me be?
Oct 13 13:28:14 <ieatlint> oh, you misunderstand, i'm not criticising
Oct 13 13:28:17 <ieatlint> :)
Oct 13 13:28:23 <crashanddie_> my bad, then.
Oct 13 13:28:50 <ieatlint> i usually target christians myself... they're more plentiful where i live, and much more righteous
Oct 13 13:28:59 <MohammadAG> lol
Oct 13 13:30:19 <Myrtti> healthy hobbies etc...
Oct 13 13:31:30 <ieatlint> eh, my hobby doesn't include telling others about how a mythical figure named god disapproves of them and how they're going to suffer an eternity in hell for being who they are
Oct 13 13:34:15 <Myrtti> no, it includes telling others how you disapprove them
Oct 13 13:34:28 <Myrtti> irony ftw
Oct 13 13:34:29 <Myrtti> ;-)
Oct 13 13:35:15 <ieatlint> very true, but with god on their side, it shouldn't matter
Oct 13 13:36:21 <Myrtti> I must've transported to an alternate universe where all this makes sense somehow
Oct 13 13:37:08 <Myrtti> instead of being a venue for discussing maemo, it's a place for discussing monarchies, heredity of rule, north korean hamburgers and religion
Oct 13 13:39:50 <MohammadAG> DocScrutinizer51, took out ribbon again, still working
Oct 13 13:39:58 <MohammadAG> your model was probably defective
Oct 13 13:40:10 * MohammadAG waves
Oct 13 13:41:04 <GAN900> Myrtti, clearly we need new hardware.
Oct 13 13:41:47 <DocScrutinizer51> MohammadAG51: that's what I (and implicitly Nokia repair) thought as well
Oct 13 13:41:53 <Myrtti> GAN900: my brain needs less memory
Oct 13 13:55:21 <DocScrutinizer> meh, tethering N900 to laptop (knetworkmanager) wasn't as simple as I thought it should be
Oct 13 13:58:22 <SpeedEvil> I just did it old-skool - and wrote a pppd conf
Oct 13 13:58:31 <SpeedEvil> pppd call t-mobil
Oct 13 13:58:40 <MohammadAG51> yay, fixed it
Oct 13 13:58:42 <jaska> pppd call ghostbusters
Oct 13 14:03:35 <crashanddie_> jaska, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiH1wNmZTII
Oct 13 14:04:21 <jpinx-eeepc> ...
Oct 13 14:04:25 <MohammadAG51> where's a link to the theme maker for the N900?
Oct 13 14:18:04 <blua> Good morning! After it sat in the junk drawer for years, I finally got my old n800 working again :) :) :)
Oct 13 14:19:15 <blua> I got OS2008 on it now and I would love some suggestions for fun things to install that don't need a hardware keyboard.
Oct 13 14:21:32 <crashanddie_> blua, enable host mode and connect USB keyboard to it? :)
Oct 13 14:22:52 <blua> heheheh... might pick up a nice bluetooth keyboard later. Any ideas for nice touch only programs? It's just a nice toy at this point. I really thought it was never coming back.
Oct 13 14:23:26 <crashanddie_> blua, host mode enables you to connect any USB device to it...
Oct 13 14:23:45 <blua> Can you explain that or point me to documentation for it, please?
Oct 13 14:24:27 <crashanddie_> plenty of results on google for "N800 usb host mode"
Oct 13 14:24:53 <blua> sure enough...
Oct 13 14:25:08 <crashanddie_> http://konttoristhoughts.blogspot.com/2008/01/usb-otg-easy-way.html
Oct 13 14:25:12 <crashanddie_> seems to be promising
Oct 13 14:26:09 <crashanddie_> blua, other fun things: get an arduino to control a hardware lock, then bluetooth shield, then program the n800 to be your own unlocking key
Oct 13 14:26:33 <blua> *taking notes*
Oct 13 14:27:14 <RST38h> Can I power USB handwarmer off my N900 using USB OTG?
Oct 13 14:27:21 <crashanddie_> no
Oct 13 14:27:34 <RST38h> Or should I simply run the PSX emulator and use N900 itself as a handwarmer?
Oct 13 14:27:34 <blua> That would take a lot of juice.
Oct 13 14:27:45 <crashanddie_> RST38h, yup
Oct 13 14:27:59 <blua> oh there's the punchline.. that was funny :)
Oct 13 14:28:18 <blua> Any game suggestions?
Oct 13 14:29:58 <crashanddie_> lcuk, I want liqbase-enabled multi-n900 4-in-a-row and naval battle
Oct 13 14:32:54 <lcuk> crashanddie_, go for it then
Oct 13 14:33:41 <Stskeeps> RST38h: meego n900 makes an -excellent- handwarmer.
Oct 13 14:35:58 <ShadowJK> ah no, this sandisk class 2 card seems as slow as I'd expect
Oct 13 14:36:29 <ShadowJK> 25 kilobytes/sec or so :)
Oct 13 14:36:35 <ShadowJK> 4k random writes
Oct 13 14:37:22 <GAN900> blua, FBReader.
Oct 13 14:37:22 <GAN900> NumptyPhysics
Oct 13 14:37:48 <blua> Thank you, gan.
Oct 13 14:50:38 <dRbiG> hello!
Oct 13 14:55:26 <ShadowJK> hm, that's funny. iozone is claiming it's doing 64k random writes, but iostat shows it as 128k random writes
Oct 13 14:55:45 <ShadowJK> might mean that worst case performance is worse than 25 kilobytes/sec on the sandisk class 2 card :)
Oct 13 14:56:04 <Jartza> I, ozone
Oct 13 14:57:09 <SpeedEvil> strace
Oct 13 14:58:44 <ShadowJK> It might be kernel joining together two requests despite iozone requesting synchronous
Oct 13 15:04:41 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: hmm, so your estimation of 6..12h is correct then? :-S
Oct 13 15:05:15 <ShadowJK> no that was more optimistic
Oct 13 15:05:20 <ShadowJK> by a factor of 100 or so
Oct 13 15:06:17 <DocScrutinizer> umm, 177h
Oct 13 15:07:30 <DocScrutinizer> well, 25kB/s is a plain joke, not even sufficient for audio recording
Oct 13 15:08:55 <DocScrutinizer> that's ... :x ... BAD
Oct 13 15:11:16 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: I really wonder what made my N900 freeze on copying from sd to emmc via mass storage mode, while reading from sd worked, as well as writing to emmc
Oct 13 15:11:54 <DocScrutinizer> cache messed up?
Oct 13 15:12:04 <DocScrutinizer> or buffers?
Oct 13 15:12:11 <ShadowJK> Oh it deadlocks sometimes
Oct 13 15:12:27 <ShadowJK> and all mmc traffic more or less dies
Oct 13 15:12:36 <DocScrutinizer> :nod:
Oct 13 15:12:38 <DocScrutinizer> nice
Oct 13 15:14:29 <DocScrutinizer> when it froze, both the OMAP and even the one core on my laptop were 100% busy on IOwait
Oct 13 15:15:37 <DocScrutinizer> a rather frightening experience to unplug the N900 to recover
Oct 13 15:16:00 <Stskeeps> odd question, but how did freerunner deal with mmc access?
Oct 13 15:16:04 <ieatlint> intlock
Oct 13 15:16:09 <DocScrutinizer> the expected massive fs corruption didn't happen though
Oct 13 15:16:10 <Stskeeps> just wondering if we genuinely have a bad mmc chip
Oct 13 15:16:41 <ShadowJK> dunno, it performs better than most stuff i've seen :-)
Oct 13 15:16:46 <DocScrutinizer> Stskeeps: sorry, no expert here
Oct 13 15:16:56 <DocScrutinizer> it "just worked"
Oct 13 15:17:17 <ShadowJK> I suspect freerunner wasn't loading it as heavily though?
Oct 13 15:17:26 <DocScrutinizer> for sure not
Oct 13 15:17:56 <DocScrutinizer> and especially we didn't have 2 concurrent interfaces there, only one uSD on the system
Oct 13 15:18:15 <lindi-> ShadowJK: DocScrutinizer: what sort of debugging facilities are typically used for kernel debugging on n900?
Oct 13 15:18:15 <ShadowJK> Well N900 is actually somewhat sensible, N8x0 had one interface and two mmcs :P
Oct 13 15:18:40 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: if only I knew a decent answer to this
Oct 13 15:18:53 * ShadowJK vaguely recalls seeing a potential deadlock fix go into 2.6.36 or later maybe
Oct 13 15:18:55 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: printk :-P
Oct 13 15:20:10 <DocScrutinizer> but yes, looks like a genuine kernel bug rather than a "bad emmc"
Oct 13 15:20:17 <DocScrutinizer> ...chip
Oct 13 15:20:57 <ShadowJK> Stskeeps, but roughly speaking, copying huge amounts of crap right at boot when other stuff is starting up, while tracker and whatever is  groping around looking at the emerging files, and with the ram (or lack of) that N900 has, I'd pretty much expect it to take forever
Oct 13 15:21:19 <ShadowJK> especially with OS running off of mmc
Oct 13 15:21:52 <ShadowJK> Just imagine every additional stream to or from mmc removes a 0 from the baseline performance :P
Oct 13 15:22:02 <ShadowJK> a 0 from the end
Oct 13 15:22:08 <DocScrutinizer> who the hell would copy large amounts of stuff on boot time?
Oct 13 15:24:06 <DocScrutinizer> and then... TRACKER eeeeeeeeeeeek blargh
Oct 13 15:24:32 <ShadowJK> The act dead thing or whatever mode N900 does SSU in actually has more benefits than just reducing number of open file handles so that the filesystem doesn't become full :-)
Oct 13 15:24:34 <DocScrutinizer> DIE tracker DIE
Oct 13 15:25:01 <ShadowJK> It also makes sure there's only like 3 or 4 simultaneous things going on
Oct 13 15:26:18 <ShadowJK> first-boot optification is also done under pretty minimal state :-)
Oct 13 15:26:43 <DocScrutinizer> isn't it irony that sd/mmc seems is less suited for concurrent access than a HDD with physically moving heads?
Oct 13 15:27:16 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: what about SSDs?
Oct 13 15:27:26 <ShadowJK> Depends on the SSD :-)
Oct 13 15:27:43 <Venemo> I heard there are pretty nice ones
Oct 13 15:27:44 <DocScrutinizer> those have smart controllers with huge amounts of buffer ram
Oct 13 15:27:47 <ShadowJK> You can roughly divide them into two camps: before and after intel
Oct 13 15:27:55 <Venemo> just their price is not very nice
Oct 13 15:27:59 <ShadowJK> the ram isn't actually used for buffering, you know :-)
Oct 13 15:28:14 <Venemo> ShadowJK: before and after intel? :D
Oct 13 15:28:45 <ShadowJK> Everything before intel's x-25 came out was ultraslow in real life use. SLow as in "Why did my computer pause for a whole second, I just wrote a one-line IM?"
Oct 13 15:29:10 <Venemo> intel's ssd is so great then?
Oct 13 15:29:17 <jacekowski> yeah
Oct 13 15:29:22 <ShadowJK> and there's of course alot of stock left of the pre-intel era, they still built (and build) new SSDs using old controllers
Oct 13 15:30:01 <jacekowski> but only -e and -m
Oct 13 15:30:05 <jacekowski> -v version is slow
Oct 13 15:30:59 <DocScrutinizer> then there's also the single-level vs multi-level thingy to consider
Oct 13 15:31:04 <Venemo> so if I ever wanna buy an SSD, I should buy an intel one?
Oct 13 15:31:13 <jacekowski> x25-e
Oct 13 15:31:17 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, latest generation intel MLC outperforms first generation intel SLC pretty much
Oct 13 15:31:19 <jacekowski> that's only one worth buying
Oct 13 15:31:35 <ShadowJK> -v isn't fast, but it isn't slow either :-)
Oct 13 15:32:18 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: but I heard MTBF is some magnitudes higher
Oct 13 15:32:26 <DocScrutinizer> on MLC
Oct 13 15:32:39 <kerio> do they have 1tb SSDs for 100€ yet?
Oct 13 15:32:41 <DocScrutinizer> err lower, means more errors
Oct 13 15:32:56 <DocScrutinizer> kerio: LOL
Oct 13 15:33:03 <Appiah> haha
Oct 13 15:33:17 <kerio> they fail then
Oct 13 15:33:26 <ShadowJK> See, intel is squeezing the market. First they came in and outperformed everyone else by a factor of over 9000 (srsly), but were more expensive. Then other competitors figured out how to make SSDs that didn't suck, ones there were only quarter or half speed of intel's, instead of being 9000 times slower, and also cheaper, which was nice for consumers. Then intel's second generation bumped up performance, AND was cheaper than the competitors.. And now inte
Oct 13 15:33:32 <ShadowJK> l is squeezing at the value end with their -v drives :)
Oct 13 15:33:54 <ShadowJK> kerio, the idea is that you run your OS on the SSD, and put your porn on rotating media
Oct 13 15:34:08 <ShadowJK> it's not like you view hundreds of randomly selected jpegs per second anyway.
Oct 13 15:34:15 <ieatlint> intel got beat though
Oct 13 15:34:18 <Appiah> but if you had SSD , you COULD
Oct 13 15:34:19 <ieatlint> fusion-io
Oct 13 15:34:23 <Appiah> 4 monitors
Oct 13 15:34:30 <Appiah> scripts just download pics
Oct 13 15:34:36 <Appiah> putting them on all 4..
Oct 13 15:34:51 <ShadowJK> Yeah there are SSDs that perform better than intel's now
Oct 13 15:35:11 <kerio> downloaded pr0n? wtf
Oct 13 15:35:22 <kerio> pr0n is in the cloud, noobs
Oct 13 15:35:33 <Appiah> well some like to go old school
Oct 13 15:35:44 <kerio> so get VHSes
Oct 13 15:35:49 <Appiah> :)
Oct 13 15:36:06 <DocScrutinizer> .oO(XXX)
Oct 13 15:36:16 <ieatlint> fusion io eliminated the bottleneck of the controller intended for hdds and went with a specially designed controller.. but it suffers from proprietary costs and software
Oct 13 15:39:13 <ShadowJK> http://www.anandtech.com/show/2954/5
Oct 13 15:41:35 <crashanddie_> People are stupid
Oct 13 15:42:52 <crashanddie_> "We've finished collecting money for the gift for <some colleague>'s twins. Feel free to recommend gift ideas." "OK, what is our budget?" "We don't feel it is necessary to disclose that information."
Oct 13 15:43:34 <ShadowJK> Yeah, suggest twin hookers
Oct 13 15:43:44 <Lynoure> crashanddie_: not necessarily stupid, possibly evil.
Oct 13 15:44:05 <Lynoure> crashanddie_: one reason not to disclose is to keep part of the money.
Oct 13 15:45:23 <crashanddie_> No, I just suggested two BMW R1200GS Adventure bikes -- with stabilisers.
Oct 13 15:51:38 <Venemo> is it possible to read the g_debug output of Hildon-Desktop somehow?
Oct 13 15:52:16 <luke-jr_> wrong question
Oct 13 15:52:24 <luke-jr_> of course it's *possible*…
Oct 13 15:52:38 <Venemo> luke-jr_: okay, I'll refine the question then. :)
Oct 13 15:52:49 <Venemo> luke-jr_: how can I read the g_debug output of Hildon-Desktop?
Oct 13 15:52:52 <luke-jr_> I think the real question is, how difficult is it? :P
Oct 13 15:52:59 <Stskeeps> Venemo: install syslog
Oct 13 15:53:03 <Stskeeps> d
Oct 13 15:53:33 <toggles> crashanddie_: so i saw one parked outside the cafe i had lunch in today, explain the big scoop under the lights..
Oct 13 15:53:49 <toggles> looks like a great way to shovel dirt/water into the donk
Oct 13 15:53:51 <crashanddie_> sorry?
Oct 13 15:53:59 <crashanddie_> oh, the beemer?
Oct 13 15:54:02 <toggles> BMW R1200GS
Oct 13 15:54:03 <dneary> Stskeeps, Have you ever seen this happen before: I've packaged a hello, world Hildon app as an armel .deb in Scratchbox, copied the package over to my N900, and when I select it, I get the message "Unable to install 'hello'.\nIncompatible application package."
Oct 13 15:54:08 <Venemo> Stskeeps: thanks
Oct 13 15:54:21 <crashanddie_> toggles, yeah, it is a beast
Oct 13 15:54:31 <Stskeeps> dneary: Section: user/ missing or something
Oct 13 15:54:37 <Venemo> Stskeeps: although I'm not familiar enough with it... could you please help?
Oct 13 15:54:44 <dneary> h-a-m needs user/?
Oct 13 15:54:46 <crashanddie_> toggles, definitely not for everyone, I drove one a couple times -- the torque is massive, and it really feels robust and everything
Oct 13 15:54:58 <crashanddie_> toggles, but I don't think I'll get one, after all.
Oct 13 15:55:05 <toggles> crashanddie_: you're not onswering my question.
Oct 13 15:55:15 <toggles> s/onswering/answering
Oct 13 15:55:20 <crashanddie_> you asked a question?
Oct 13 15:55:28 <toggles> never mind.
Oct 13 15:55:48 <crashanddie_> toggles, oh, the eagle beak?
Oct 13 15:56:13 <crashanddie_> I'm guessing it's so that you can use it to hunt dear, or something
Oct 13 15:56:31 <toggles> i think it's purpose is to shovel water/dirt into the donk. bad idea
Oct 13 15:56:46 <crashanddie_> s/dear/deer/
Oct 13 15:56:46 <infobot> crashanddie_ meant: I'm guessing it's so that you can use it to hunt deer, or something
Oct 13 15:57:07 <crashanddie_> that or maybe some engineering thing that reduces airdrag/vibrations we don't understand?
Oct 13 15:58:09 <Venemo> Stskeeps: okay, installed syslogd. I also found some docs on the net about it, but I'm still not sure what to do with it
Oct 13 15:58:10 <Stskeeps> dneary: for manual installed debs, yes
Oct 13 15:58:36 <Stskeeps> Venemo: /var/log/messages and /var/log/syslog
Oct 13 15:59:27 <Venemo> Stskeeps: those files will contain what I'm looking for?
Oct 13 16:03:21 <Venemo> Stskeeps: /var/log/messages is not present and /var/log/syslog does not contain what I'm looking for
Oct 13 16:04:06 <dneary_> Stskeeps, You were right. Adding the right Section in debian/control did the trick
Oct 13 16:06:05 <dneary_> OK... application installed on N900 & works. Cool!
Oct 13 16:06:20 <dneary_> Still doesn't appear in the application list - I guess I need an icon
Oct 13 16:07:24 <DocScrutinizer> dneary_: start from xterm for a first test?
Oct 13 16:07:45 <Venemo> Stskeeps: currently it only seems to display messages from the kernel and a few other processes
Oct 13 16:09:32 <DocScrutinizer> Venemo: a wild guess: enable debugging output in hildon desktop , and/or rise debug verbosity?
Oct 13 16:10:13 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: yeah, but how do I do that?
Oct 13 16:10:27 <dneary_> DocScrutinizer: sure - long done
Oct 13 16:10:54 <dneary_> Allow me to explain - I am running through the beginner developer docs for Maemo
Oct 13 16:11:00 <dneary_> As if I were a beginner
Oct 13 16:11:26 <dneary_> And in the "Getting started" page, there was no link to anything resembling "compiling & packaging" - so I put that in
Oct 13 16:11:47 <dneary_> And from the packaging page, there was no info on testing & deploying - so I'm linking to that
Oct 13 16:12:24 <dneary_> And now I'm thinking for basic fit & finish (icon, desktop file, etc) the documentation isn't quite as clear as it could be
Oct 13 16:12:59 <GAN900> dneary_, cool.
Oct 13 16:13:17 <dneary> GAN900, I'm also switching between 2 laptops regularly :)
Oct 13 16:14:59 <dneary> GAN900, So - if you were to explain to someone who didn't know, how would you explain the minimum steps to follow?
Oct 13 16:16:12 <Venemo> Stskeeps / luke-jr: will the line 'hildon-desktop /var/log/hildon.log' in /etc/syslog.conf do the trick?
Oct 13 16:17:41 <Venemo> it doesn't work...
Oct 13 16:17:43 <Venemo> :(
Oct 13 16:21:36 <Venemo> could anyone help me please?
Oct 13 16:21:46 <GAN900> dneary, didn't know what?
Oct 13 16:22:08 <DocScrutinizer51> less +/thermal /etc/sysinfod.conf o.O
Oct 13 16:22:21 <dneary> GAN900, the minimum steps to follow (once you have a package) to have an icon launcher in the application list
Oct 13 16:22:47 <GAN900> Ah, don't ask me. :P
Oct 13 16:22:58 <GAN900> I've never put anything in the application list in my life.
Oct 13 16:24:03 <GAN900> Get your icon, get your .desktop, make sure you're interacting with libosso OK.
Oct 13 16:24:16 <DocScrutinizer51> Venemo: everything not mentioned explicitly in syslog.conf will show up in default desination (i.e. var/log/syslog) - adding a line like your suggestion won't make any nonexisting logger output appear magically
Oct 13 16:24:50 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: so how do I make a new logger output for hildon-desktop?
Oct 13 16:25:35 <DocScrutinizer51> you need to check source or docs of HD to find how to enable logging
Oct 13 16:26:11 <DocScrutinizer51> quite likely syslog.conf isn't involved
Oct 13 16:26:35 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: well, HD simply uses g_debug to print stuff. I simply would like to have a way to see what it is printing
Oct 13 16:26:49 <DocScrutinizer51> as it is just for distributing input from logger() calls to different destinations
Oct 13 16:27:19 <DocScrutinizer51> sorry I have nfc bout g_debug
Oct 13 16:27:54 <DocScrutinizer51> if it's using logger() then the output should show up in syslog
Oct 13 16:28:11 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: well the problem is, me neither. Stskeeps suggested syslogd for it
Oct 13 16:28:49 <DocScrutinizer51> if it's using XprintX() then odds are this will stow up on stdout/stderr
Oct 13 16:30:07 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: well, I guess it does
Oct 13 16:30:16 <DocScrutinizer51> plus I'd expect g_debug is conditional depending on some flag or env var or gconf key or whatever
Oct 13 16:30:24 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: do you know how to read that?
Oct 13 16:30:36 <DocScrutinizer51> stdout/err?
Oct 13 16:31:07 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: yes
Oct 13 16:31:11 <DocScrutinizer51> start hildon esktop from a console/xterm and you'll see the prints there
Oct 13 16:32:04 <DocScrutinizer51> or do a 'hildonfdesktop | logger' in the startup script
Oct 13 16:32:21 <DocScrutinizer51> to pipe stdout to logger to syslog
Oct 13 16:33:02 <DocScrutinizer51> sorry but without looking at it all I can tell is mere handwaving
Oct 13 16:34:01 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: no problem, I'm glad you have an idea
Oct 13 16:34:26 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: I guess I can't simply start it from console
Oct 13 16:34:47 * pahartik wonders about whether "systemui" can be killed (for restart) without whole system going down
Oct 13 16:35:12 <DocScrutinizer51> afaik it's started from dsme, so killing it will restart
Oct 13 16:36:24 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: hm, easier than I thought... it is started with Upstart
Oct 13 16:36:50 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: okay, I'll be afk for some time... brb
Oct 13 16:36:53 <DocScrutinizer51> you need to grep /etc for hildon-sektop, and find+fix the place where it's sttarted
Oct 13 16:37:27 <DocScrutinizer51> yep, upstart. but probably by dsmetool
Oct 13 16:43:06 <DocScrutinizer51> Venemo: /etc/X11/Xsession.post/20hildon-desktop:/usr/sbin/dsmetool -c 3 -T 180 -m -17 -t /usr/bin/hildon-desktop
Oct 13 16:43:34 <DocScrutinizer51> plus another few
Oct 13 16:43:41 <DocScrutinizer51> locations
Oct 13 17:02:39 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.google.de/search?q=g_debug+output+of+Hildon-Desktop&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8  first hit: >>...log_ignore_debug_handler, main): Disable g_debug output by default. ...<<
Oct 13 17:03:25 <DocScrutinizer> http://maemo.gitorious.org/fremantle-hildon-desktop/hildon-home/commit/9640011ce829013da531f2a7d04bc53a3cf02c17
Oct 13 17:04:12 <DocScrutinizer>    It can be enabled via --enable-debug. Fixes: NB#103304
Oct 13 17:04:32 <DocScrutinizer> Venemo: HTH
Oct 13 17:07:25 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, that's src/hildon-home.c though
Oct 13 17:07:52 <MohammadAG51> what's the best video container?
Oct 13 17:08:01 <MohammadAG51> I want to output a movie from a project, youtube doesn't support ogv apparently
Oct 13 17:17:20 <DocScrutinizer> luke-jr_: was that you who claimed "anything using glib is broken by design" ? I tend to agree
Oct 13 17:17:52 <Stskeeps> anything using gobject, for sure..
Oct 13 17:17:53 <Stskeeps> :P
Oct 13 17:20:41 <luke-jr_> DocScrutinizer: could be, though I doubt those exact words
Oct 13 17:22:20 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: re
Oct 13 17:24:22 <DocScrutinizer> Venemo: I dug into glib until I found def of g_debug macro (it's g_log), and it seems it's actually printing unconditionally to stdout aiui
Oct 13 17:24:57 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: I changed the script to '/usr/sbin/dsmetool -c 3 -T 180 -m -17 -t '/usr/bin/hildon-desktop | logger''
Oct 13 17:25:09 <DocScrutinizer> does it work at all?
Oct 13 17:25:18 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: what do you mean?
Oct 13 17:25:41 <DocScrutinizer> does it start HD, and does some logs show up in syslog?
Oct 13 17:26:02 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: after issuing 'killall hildon-desktop', it is restarted automatically... but I still don't see any logs
Oct 13 17:26:29 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: that syslog.conf line I talked about earlier is also there
Oct 13 17:26:31 <DocScrutinizer> killall won't help as this is handled inside dsme
Oct 13 17:26:44 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: reboot?
Oct 13 17:26:53 <DocScrutinizer> you need to reboot or at least restart the service to put your changes to effect
Oct 13 17:27:09 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: it is not possible to restart the service
Oct 13 17:27:17 <DocScrutinizer> I suggest you add a "-t MyTag" to logger
Oct 13 17:27:33 <DocScrutinizer> Venemo: I found out as much, yes :-D
Oct 13 17:27:43 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: :)
Oct 13 17:27:47 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: what does that do?
Oct 13 17:28:00 <DocScrutinizer> -t tag   Mark every line in the log with the specified tag.
Oct 13 17:28:30 <Venemo> is this okay? /usr/sbin/dsmetool -c 3 -T 180 -m -17 -t '/usr/bin/hildon-desktop | logger -t mytag'
Oct 13 17:28:35 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Oct 13 17:29:05 <DocScrutinizer> if dsmetool knows how to handle such shell style parameters
Oct 13 17:29:13 <DocScrutinizer> for -t
Oct 13 17:29:16 <Venemo> hm, is there a chance it doesn't?
Oct 13 17:29:23 <DocScrutinizer> dunno
Oct 13 17:29:34 <DocScrutinizer> that's why I asked if it works at all
Oct 13 17:29:47 <Venemo> how can I check if it does?
Oct 13 17:30:17 <DocScrutinizer> otherwise you'd probably need a script doing the real cmd, and just invoke that script from dsmetool, without any parameters etc
Oct 13 17:31:28 <Venemo> okay, but how can I check whether it works or not?
Oct 13 17:31:33 <DocScrutinizer> sorry, got no better idea than try&error
Oct 13 17:32:04 <Venemo> k
Oct 13 17:32:10 <DocScrutinizer> replace the command string by "date|logger" :-P
Oct 13 17:32:46 <DocScrutinizer> or 'echo foobarboo | logger'
Oct 13 17:33:15 <DocScrutinizer> obviously this won't launch HD :-D
Oct 13 17:33:46 <Venemo> ouch
Oct 13 17:33:58 <DocScrutinizer> but will show if it works - BEWARE, dsme might bootloop as that cmd sequence quitsvery fast
Oct 13 17:34:15 <Venemo> this: /usr/sbin/dsmetool -c 3 -T 180 -m -17 -t 'echo blahblah | logger' made my device reboot...'
Oct 13 17:34:25 <DocScrutinizer> check dsmetool --help
Oct 13 17:34:37 <DocScrutinizer> change -t to something less aggressive
Oct 13 17:34:42 <Venemo> but the device booted anyways, so I guess it could handle it
Oct 13 17:35:37 <DocScrutinizer> it might as well pass ' | logger -t mytag' to hildon-desktop as argv[1]
Oct 13 17:36:18 <DocScrutinizer> the problem is "|" is a shell verb
Oct 13 17:36:52 <DocScrutinizer> exec?e probably won't know how to handle it
Oct 13 17:37:18 <Venemo> I left that command in the script before the reboot... and since it actually booted, I guess it worked
Oct 13 17:38:26 <DocScrutinizer> so the solutions probably is -t '/bin/sh -c \'/usr/bin/hildon-desktop | logger -t mytag\''
Oct 13 17:39:16 <Venemo> hm, there is still no logs from HD
Oct 13 17:39:58 <DocScrutinizer> yes, because the pipe wasn't handled by dsme like it would've been by a shell
Oct 13 17:40:15 <DocScrutinizer> My uneducated guess
Oct 13 17:40:25 <Venemo> hm
Oct 13 17:40:35 <Venemo> there is bunch of other logs that appeared now, btw...
Oct 13 17:40:37 <Venemo> hm
Oct 13 17:41:09 <DocScrutinizer> use ">/path/to/MyLogfile" instead of " | logger"
Oct 13 17:41:47 <Venemo> k
Oct 13 17:41:48 <Venemo> will do
Oct 13 17:42:45 <Venemo> does this look okay? /usr/sbin/dsmetool -c 3 -T 180 -m -17 -t '/usr/bin/hildon-desktop > /var/log/hildon.log'
Oct 13 17:47:22 <DocScrutinizer> should - but after all we should make sure we're hammering the right line at all, so just commenting it out will show if it's the line startiing hildon-desktop
Oct 13 17:47:35 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: this didn't work either... :(
Oct 13 17:48:06 <DocScrutinizer> then, why use dsmetool at all, kick it out as you don't bother about auto-respawning of hildon-desktop
Oct 13 17:48:33 <DocScrutinizer> just replace it by a simple "/usr/bin/hildon-desktop > /var/log/hildon.log" line
Oct 13 17:48:48 <Venemo> without the dsmetool?
Oct 13 17:48:51 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Oct 13 17:49:02 <Venemo> isn't it dangerous?
Oct 13 17:49:23 <DocScrutinizer> dsmetool is just restarting the HD process whenever you do a killall, and eventually even may reboot
Oct 13 17:49:33 <DocScrutinizer> nah, not really dangerous
Oct 13 17:50:10 <Venemo> okay, trying
Oct 13 17:50:41 <slonopotamus> DocScrutinizer: what's wrong with glib?
Oct 13 17:51:03 <DocScrutinizer51> it starts with a 'g'
Oct 13 17:51:30 <slonopotamus> so?
Oct 13 17:51:49 <slonopotamus> gcc also starts with g
Oct 13 17:52:48 <Venemo> hm
Oct 13 17:52:55 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: the log file is still empty
Oct 13 17:53:16 <DocScrutinizer51> hmm, but it got created?
Oct 13 17:53:52 <Venemo> I created it by hand
Oct 13 17:54:07 <Venemo> shouldn't I have done that?
Oct 13 17:54:48 <DocScrutinizer51> you don't know if your line got correctly executed otherwise
Oct 13 17:55:24 <Venemo> are you sure this is the line where hildon-desktop is started?
Oct 13 17:56:54 <DocScrutinizer51> no, I mentioned abov we should check this first
Oct 13 17:58:05 <Venemo> hmm
Oct 13 17:58:14 <Venemo> well, it no longer respawns after a killall
Oct 13 17:58:18 <Venemo> so this is gotta be it
Oct 13 17:58:28 <DocScrutinizer51> yup
Oct 13 17:58:41 <Venemo> the UI looks... interesting :D
Oct 13 17:58:45 <DocScrutinizer51> redirect stderr too
Oct 13 17:59:10 <Venemo> how can I do that?
Oct 13 17:59:29 <DocScrutinizer51> then check hildon-desktop how to enable debug output. odds are it's somehow disabled
Oct 13 18:00:31 <DocScrutinizer51> or simply killall hildon-desktop, then restart it from a ssh session
Oct 13 18:00:48 <Venemo> hmm... :) good idea
Oct 13 18:00:54 <SpeedEvil> hildon-desktop is open-source IIRC
Oct 13 18:01:10 <DocScrutinizer51> yes
Oct 13 18:01:19 <Venemo> SpeedEvil: we know
Oct 13 18:01:28 <SpeedEvil> Fair enough.
Oct 13 18:01:51 <Venemo> SpeedEvil: I found some g_debug() calls in its source code
Oct 13 18:02:10 <Venemo> SpeedEvil: but I'd like to see those debug lines in runtime
Oct 13 18:02:18 <DocScrutinizer51> but I got no idea what, when, and how it is logging for g_debug
Oct 13 18:04:15 <DocScrutinizer51> s/how/where to
Oct 13 18:04:23 <Venemo> I started hildon-desktop in an SSH session
Oct 13 18:04:37 <Venemo> I see some errors, but not the messages I'd like to see
Oct 13 18:05:21 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer51: --enable-debug doesn't do any good either
Oct 13 18:05:44 <Venemo> but from the errors that appear, I think I finally found something really interesting
Oct 13 18:06:36 <DocScrutinizer51> yes, hildon-desktop seems has no --enable-debug option
Oct 13 18:06:53 <Venemo> luke-jr: can you confirm this?
Oct 13 18:06:56 <DocScrutinizer51> that's hildon-home
Oct 13 18:07:28 <Venemo> yeah
Oct 13 18:08:37 <dneary> Hrmmm
Oct 13 18:08:51 <dneary> Anyone here know what each of the fields in a .desktop file means?
Oct 13 18:09:08 <Venemo> dneary: there is some doc in the wiki about it
Oct 13 18:09:21 <dneary> Venemo, Not great, though
Oct 13 18:09:22 <Venemo> dneary: in specific, which field are you interested in?
Oct 13 18:09:35 <dneary> If you're a first time developer, you get to the Packaging page
Oct 13 18:09:41 <dneary> Then Packaging/Guidelines
Oct 13 18:10:10 <dneary> Venemo, I don't know what I want - I just know I want to have my app install properly in the application menu
Oct 13 18:10:56 <dneary> Venemo, I'm on [[Packaging#Maemo-specific packaging information]] in the wiki
Oct 13 18:11:09 <DocScrutinizer51> well, version is NOT the app's version. At least so much for now :-)
Oct 13 18:11:31 <DocScrutinizer51> it's the .desktop file syntax version
Oct 13 18:11:45 <Venemo> dneary: here is a working example: http://vcs.maemo.org/svn/sticky-notes/sticky-notes/data/sticky-notes.desktop
Oct 13 18:11:47 <dneary> Venemo, I have created a hello.install file in debian/ which contains:
Oct 13 18:11:59 <dneary> hello.desktop usr/share/applications/hildon
Oct 13 18:12:23 <dneary> Venemo, And I've added an XB-Maemo-Icon-26 field to debian/control with a uuencoded logo
Oct 13 18:12:33 <Venemo> dneary: what's the issue?
Oct 13 18:12:48 <dneary> Venemo: The icon
Oct 13 18:13:05 <timeless_mbp> dneary:  what resolution/dimensions are you using for your icon?
Oct 13 18:13:14 <dneary> Do I need to package up a png (and how do I get it to install in the right place) or is the XB-Maemo-Icon field sufficient?
Oct 13 18:13:23 <timeless_mbp> the icon on n8x0 was 26x26, but the icon for the n900 isn't that dimension
Oct 13 18:13:38 <timeless_mbp> the xb-maemo-icon is for display an HAM
Oct 13 18:13:42 <timeless_mbp> s/an/in/
Oct 13 18:13:44 <infobot> timeless_mbp meant: the xb-maemo-icon is for display in HAM
Oct 13 18:14:04 <timeless_mbp> you need something in your .desktop  for the icon that appears in the launcher
Oct 13 18:14:05 <dneary> I'm assuming I need to package it up, install it in the right place, and include a filename root in the Icon: field of the .desktop file
Oct 13 18:14:19 <dneary> But the docs in the Packaging wiki page aren't really clear on that
Oct 13 18:14:27 <timeless_mbp> dneary: generally the best approach is to look at someone else's package :)
Oct 13 18:14:44 <Venemo> dneary: the icon in the app menu or the icon in the app mnager?
Oct 13 18:14:45 <dneary> timeless_mbp, This is why I'm going through the getting started docs :)
Oct 13 18:14:56 <dneary> timeless_mbp, Let's see if we can't make the docs better
Oct 13 18:15:16 <dneary> Venemo, I would like a hello, world application with an icon in the applications menu
Oct 13 18:15:26 <timeless_mbp>  /usr/share/icons/hicolor/{48x48,scalable,32x32}/hildon/fmms.png
Oct 13 18:15:43 <Venemo> dneary: /usr/share/pixmaps did the trick for me
Oct 13 18:15:50 <timeless_mbp> Icon=fmms
Oct 13 18:15:56 <dneary> Venemo, I'm not (at this point) concerned about the application manager (because for the moment I'm still testing my app locally & haven't looked into extras-devel)
Oct 13 18:16:18 <timeless_mbp> that's all fmms uses
Oct 13 18:16:20 <timeless_mbp> and it works
Oct 13 18:16:27 <dneary> timeless_mbp, Presumably I need to do something to Makefile.am to install the DATA files correctly?
Oct 13 18:16:40 <Venemo> dneary: for Sticky Notes, I put the icon into /usr/share/pixmaps... and it also works for the app menu :)
Oct 13 18:16:40 <timeless_mbp> dneary: um, Makefile.am is a build issue
Oct 13 18:16:45 <timeless_mbp> I don't use automake :)
Oct 13 18:16:53 <dneary> Or is it in debian/hello.install?
Oct 13 18:17:04 <timeless_mbp> hello.install should work
Oct 13 18:17:10 <dneary> Venemo, How do you do that?
Oct 13 18:17:22 <dneary> (put the icon in /usr/share/pixmaps)
Oct 13 18:17:40 <timeless_mbp> dneary:  the .install file is the key here
Oct 13 18:17:57 <timeless_mbp> it just needs a valid path to where the file is in your build tree
Oct 13 18:18:01 <timeless_mbp> and a path to where oyu want it to go
Oct 13 18:18:13 <dneary> timeless_mbp, As an autotools guy, I can't help but wonder whether Makefile.am is not a better solution
Oct 13 18:18:18 <timeless_mbp> e.g. hello.png /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/hildon/
Oct 13 18:18:24 <timeless_mbp> dneary: *shrug*
Oct 13 18:18:45 <dneary> timeless_mbp, Will that line in the install get through dh_buildpackage?
Oct 13 18:18:53 * timeless_mbp shrugs
Oct 13 18:19:13 * timeless_mbp uses dpkg or something
Oct 13 18:19:17 <timeless_mbp> probably not
Oct 13 18:19:18 <DocScrutinizer> dneary: http://linuxcritic.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/anatomy-of-a-desktop-file/
Oct 13 18:19:20 <timeless_mbp> man dh_buildpackage? :)
Oct 13 18:19:25 <dneary> timeless_mbp, Another thing I'm not clear on
Oct 13 18:19:28 <Venemo> dneary: I PM'd you
Oct 13 18:19:37 <timeless_mbp> DocScrutinizer:  at this point he has issues more w/ dh_* than w/ .desktop
Oct 13 18:19:41 <timeless_mbp> dneary:  it's dinner time.
Oct 13 18:20:30 <dneary> Is it always "application.install" or did I correctly interpret that to mean "s/application/your packagename"?
Oct 13 18:20:37 <DocScrutinizer> timeless: sorry, I'm ust so fast with digging up proper replies
Oct 13 18:20:38 <dneary> The filename, that is?
Oct 13 18:21:16 <DocScrutinizer> dneary: yes, the file can have basically arbitrary name
Oct 13 18:21:45 <dneary> OK - let's see...
Oct 13 18:21:59 <DocScrutinizer> as long as HAM is concerned, and HFM
Oct 13 18:22:08 <dneary> I copied (48x48 PNG) hello.png into the source directory, ran dpkg-buildpackage
Oct 13 18:22:42 <dneary> And get a fatal error in dpkg-source: "cannot represent change to hello.png: binary file contents have changed"
Oct 13 18:22:48 <dneary> I don't understand what this means
Oct 13 18:23:12 <dneary> Should I make distclean & try again?
Oct 13 18:23:15 <Venemo> dneary: do you have an SVN client?
Oct 13 18:23:36 <Venemo> dneary: if you do, checkout a working app, and see how it does this
Oct 13 18:23:42 <dneary> Venemo, Yes, but this is a local from-scratch package (just to test the docs)
Oct 13 18:23:55 <dneary> Ah - I see what you are getting at
Oct 13 18:24:02 <Venemo> dneary: the docs are crap
Oct 13 18:24:29 <dneary> ahem
Oct 13 18:24:35 <dneary> That's what I'm here for :)
Oct 13 18:24:39 <Venemo> :)
Oct 13 18:24:47 <dneary> I had fixed the docs up to "making your first .deb"
Oct 13 18:25:00 <Venemo> seems that noone has cared to review it in a long time :)
Oct 13 18:25:03 <dneary> now I want to get them better up to "getting your app onto extras-testing"
Oct 13 18:25:46 <dneary> OK - I'll work on this tomorrow (and actually improving the docs).
Oct 13 18:31:16 <johnsq> Hi
Oct 13 18:33:11 <Myrtti> ohai
Oct 13 18:33:19 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: thanks for your help :)
Oct 13 18:33:53 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: I didn't manage to find out how to enable debug output, but from the few error messages I saw, I was able to determine what the error was :)
Oct 13 18:34:10 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer: so again, thank you very-very much :)
Oct 13 18:34:49 <DocScrutinizer51> yw
Oct 13 18:51:36 <RST38h> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_tk25s2F-keM/TLX-I539_2I/AAAAAAAAAA8/gsoa6SypFNg/h120/C:%5Cfakepath%5Cmonkey.png
Oct 13 18:59:29 <RST38h> Nokia Launchpad is now free to join
Oct 13 19:00:16 <DocScrutinizer> ??
Oct 13 19:01:26 <BCMM> RST38h: and what is it?
Oct 13 19:10:20 <Goliath23> hi
Oct 13 19:10:25 <Goliath23> I wrote a homescreenwidget using harald fernengels adaptor. now when I show the settings dialog, all "mousePressEvents" to the settingsdialog (QDialog) are eaten by underlying homescreenwidgets (no matter if they are mine or others) .. as long as there's no homescreen widget beneath the location I tap, everything is fine
Oct 13 19:10:29 * pahartik found out that "killall -HUP systemui" solves "unlock delay" issue without shutdown
Oct 13 19:10:36 <Goliath23> for the n900 that is ^
Oct 13 19:11:55 <Venemo> Goliath23: interesting issue
Oct 13 19:12:09 <Venemo> Goliath23: ask this on #qt-maemo
Oct 13 19:12:28 <Goliath23> Venemo: ah, didn't know that channel! see you there :)
Oct 13 19:12:37 <Venemo> Goliath23: k :)
Oct 13 19:19:18 <Argo> Hello all. I have been having a problem with Pidgin 2.7.3 for maemo4 and I was wondering if someone could help me?
Oct 13 19:45:07 <nox-> moin
Oct 13 19:48:13 <toggles> qZq!
Oct 13 19:57:13 <DocScrutinizer> ?@?¿
Oct 13 19:57:48 <DocScrutinizer> vi?
Oct 13 20:00:58 <toggles> not funny Doc.
Oct 13 20:01:14 <toggles> yes.. trying to get the damn sdk installed... wtf happened to it? code rot?
Oct 13 20:01:30 <mcunix> where I download ubuntu mobile 9.04?
Oct 13 20:01:49 <slonopotamus> vi has two modes, in one it beeps and in second one it corrupts everything
Oct 13 20:06:02 <toggles> MohammadAG: thanks.. http://www.nokiausers.net/forum/nokia-n900/31920-howto-get-linux-maemo-sdk-w-emulator-running-3.html#post275834
Oct 13 20:10:46 <BCMM> slonopotamus: ah, but i take a perverse pleasure in using things that confuse other people
Oct 13 20:11:12 <BCMM> for example, on my desktop, every screen corner is rigged to do something confusing
Oct 13 20:11:59 <mgedmin> heh
Oct 13 20:31:25 <DocScrutinizer51> I found my usual things are more than confusing to exactly everybody, so no need to take special care
Oct 13 20:32:09 <DocScrutinizer51> if that's not enough, I start telling about my moods
Oct 13 20:33:11 * slonopotamus removed taskbar from his desktop completely and uses hotkeys to switch between apps. veeery confusing for other people :)
Oct 13 20:33:37 <slonopotamus> s/for/to/
Oct 13 20:33:56 * joga never had a taskbar to begin with
Oct 13 20:34:10 <mgedmin> I replaced my taskbar (gnome-panel) with docky, now I'm confused myself
Oct 13 20:34:22 <slonopotamus> joga: almost all DEs have it in default configuration
Oct 13 20:34:22 <mgedmin> I end up with many xterm windows in a workspace, since I don't see the ones I'd already opened
Oct 13 20:34:31 <joga> slonopotamus, I don't have a DE :)
Oct 13 20:34:52 <slonopotamus> joga: consolier?
Oct 13 20:34:55 <slonopotamus> :)
Oct 13 20:35:06 <slonopotamus> text mode forever?
Oct 13 20:35:49 <slonopotamus> porn via libcaca and other fancy stuff :)
Oct 13 20:35:50 <sp3000> timeless_mbp: .browser could be interesting
Oct 13 20:35:56 <joga> slonopotamus, I do have a window manager but do everything except browsing from command line
Oct 13 20:36:06 <timeless_mbp> sp3000:  there's a bugs.maemo.org bug, you could ask directly :)
Oct 13 20:36:07 <joga> or, everything sensible
Oct 13 20:37:40 <slonopotamus> err... http://caca.zoy.org/ second thingie from the right is a pile of shit?
Oct 13 20:37:52 <slonopotamus> left to the bomb
Oct 13 20:40:15 <sp3000> and right of the pee and friends, yes
Oct 13 20:40:26 <sp3000> at some point you may notice a theme there
Oct 13 20:40:59 <sp3000> timeless_mbp: well it can't be respui=false, that doesn't really draw pages
Oct 13 20:50:00 <malloc64> Does anyone know where to find the desktop SDK virtual image?
Oct 13 20:55:52 <ZogG> DocScrutinizer, hey
Oct 13 20:57:20 <malloc64> who, me?
Oct 13 21:19:24 <Venemo> why does apt-get say on my Scratchbox, "E: Could not get lock /var/lib/apt/lists/lock - open (11 Resource temporarily unavailable)" ???
Oct 13 21:21:18 <timeless_mbp> because HAM is open
Oct 13 21:21:24 <Venemo> timeless_mbp: it is not open
Oct 13 21:21:25 <timeless_mbp> (or something else like HAM)
Oct 13 21:21:43 <Venemo> timeless_mbp: the GUI is not even running
Oct 13 21:21:43 <timeless_mbp> Venemo: ls -l /var/lib/apt/lists/lock
Oct 13 21:21:50 <James_Littler> hi all, after a bit of help. I'm trying to install the maemo-sdk, I get through the eula, press enter to accept. it says display already set, installation environment already set, added debconf frontend setting in scratchbox, error opening terminal:xterm.
Oct 13 21:21:52 <timeless_mbp> ps aux|grep apt-worker
Oct 13 21:23:36 <Venemo> timeless_mbp: hm, it's working now
Oct 13 21:23:44 <Venemo> timeless_mbp: dunno what was its problem though
Oct 13 21:23:50 <timeless_mbp> you probably had an apt-worker that was running around
Oct 13 21:24:21 <Venemo> timeless_mbp: I dunno... thanks for your help anyway :)
Oct 13 21:24:32 <DocScrutinizer51> fuser /var/lib/apt/lists/lock
Oct 13 21:25:52 <DocScrutinizer51> or lsof|grep var/lib/apt/lists/lock
Oct 13 21:27:42 <DocScrutinizer51> after closing HAM, it seems apr-worker has quite some cleanup work to do, so the lock will get released eventually later
Oct 13 21:29:12 <timeless_mbp> yep
Oct 13 21:29:16 <DocScrutinizer51> get load applet and you'll learn about such things 'en passant'
Oct 13 21:30:33 <DocScrutinizer51> absolutely every computer with a UI I own has such a load applet or system monitor
Oct 13 21:33:08 <DocScrutinizer51> and I don't talk about a tool I *could* start, but about some always running meter
Oct 13 21:35:10 <timeless_mbp> bah, you can leave top always running :)
Oct 13 21:35:40 <DocScrutinizer> sure, on some environments top is my fist choice for that
Oct 13 21:35:54 <DocScrutinizer> first*
Oct 13 21:37:18 <DocScrutinizer> on a small screen with no partial screen sized windows, like maemo/N900, a status area applet is better as you don't have to switch windows to have a glance
Oct 13 21:37:35 <nidO> top via ssh \o/
Oct 13 21:38:34 <DocScrutinizer> a friend of mine once told me "hey, you're not driving a car, you are operating a combustion engine" - seems that's ageneral mindset characteristic for my way to deal with technical objects
Oct 13 21:39:27 * nox- didnt know load applet, thx for the tip :)
Oct 13 21:40:14 <GAN900> DocScrutinizer, no, you're operating a computer which is operating an internal combustion engine. :P
Oct 13 21:40:57 <DocScrutinizer> GAN900: yep, nowadays. This statement of my friend was in the early 80s
Oct 13 21:41:38 <DocScrutinizer> the cars back then even could survive an EMP
Oct 13 21:45:12 <BCMM> the important electronics are all designed for very large currents anyway
Oct 13 21:46:24 <nox-> the µc.s too?
Oct 13 21:47:49 <BCMM> those are unneccessary extras, not important parts :-)
Oct 13 21:48:13 <nox-> oh you mean the car will still drive when they're toast?
Oct 13 21:48:20 <BCMM> (yes, i know modern cars let them run the engine)
Oct 13 21:48:35 <nox-> thats the problem
Oct 13 21:49:08 <BCMM> also, i want to know how you enter unicode, if it's quicker to type a mu than to type "micro'
Oct 13 21:50:07 <nox-> oh well i configured a compose key but in this case µ is also part of the german keymap (altgr-m)
Oct 13 21:50:48 <nox-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key
Oct 13 21:51:04 * mgedmin ♥ unicode
Oct 13 21:51:46 <BCMM> can you register unicode nicks on freenode?
Oct 13 21:52:23 <_llll_> doubt it.  and clients wouldnt understand them
Oct 13 21:52:47 <BCMM> oh, is irc unicode not for nicks?
Oct 13 21:52:56 <_llll_> irc isnt unicode!
Oct 13 21:53:04 <BCMM> oh
Oct 13 21:53:35 <_llll_> lots of ircd people around can tell you more!
Oct 13 21:53:49 <BCMM> what does it use?
Oct 13 21:54:23 <_llll_> ask an ircd person! but i think it has its own idea of encoding - but that may be completely wrong
Oct 13 21:54:42 <BCMM> nox-: why do German kbs have a mu?
Oct 13 21:56:01 <nox-> they have altgr, i guess adding mu was just a `bonus' since its also in the iso latin1 encoding...
Oct 13 21:57:12 <BCMM> odd value of latin
Oct 13 21:57:25 <nox-> :)
Oct 13 21:57:32 <nox-> i mean iso8899-1
Oct 13 21:57:39 <Venemo> where are the header files in Scratchbox?
Oct 13 21:57:40 <nox-> (or -15)
Oct 13 21:57:59 <nox-> 8859-1 even
Oct 13 23:02:48 <mc_teo> hey there
Oct 13 23:03:09 <mc_teo> im trying to install smbclient on my n900
Oct 13 23:03:30 <mc_teo> which depends on samba-common
Oct 13 23:04:20 <mc_teo> and which on removing all the ^M from its postinst file, fails on the command ucfr
Oct 13 23:04:34 <mc_teo> ucf is installed
Oct 13 23:04:45 <mc_teo> so what do?
Oct 13 23:17:37 <GAN900> Love it when the phone isn't answerable. And selected reject when it finally stops deadlocking.
Oct 13 23:23:50 <nox-> too much swapping?
Oct 14 01:54:23 <rtyler> is there a decent virtualbox image with the SDK and everything included already I can download? I'm running openSUSE and don't really want to go through the pain with the SDK tools :P
Oct 14 02:11:51 <ebzzry> Hi! Is git available on Fremantle?
Oct 14 02:29:45 <returnthis> quick question: I have extras-testing and -devel setup on my n900. I can't find syncevolution in the packages list. yet it is listed on the repo
Oct 14 02:29:54 <returnthis> no errors on refreshe either
Oct 14 02:33:22 <DocScrutinizer51> rtyler: I seem to remember the available image is out of date. I managed to install sb and maemo tools on Suse, by following a suse specific instruction
Oct 14 02:35:26 <rtyler> yeah, installing that now
Oct 14 02:35:32 <rtyler> my preference would be a vm though
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