**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Nov 02 02:59:57 2010
Nov 02 02:59:58 <ieatlint> Gorroth: actually i'm referencing the 7th
Nov 02 03:00:02 <Gorroth> the US Constitution stands above state law
Nov 02 03:00:18 <Gorroth> and your 5th amendment applies to any criminal proceeding
Nov 02 03:00:20 <ieatlint> it stands above state law, yes, but it is not enforceable in a state court
Nov 02 03:00:27 <ieatlint> appeals to it are done in federal court
Nov 02 03:00:27 <Gorroth> it absolutely is
Nov 02 03:00:29 <nox-> anyway here's how to watch the madde qemu boot:  (cd /home/maemo/.madde/0.6.72/runtimes/rx51-fremantle-pr12 && LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/maemo/.madde/0.6.72/madlib DISPLAY=:0.0 ~/.madde/0.6.72/madlib/qemu-system-arm-0.12.50-madde3 -M n900 -mtdblock RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1.nand -sd RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1.emmc -clock unix -net nic -net user,hostfwd=tcp:127.0.0.1:6666-:22,hostfwd=tcp:127.0.0.1:13219-:13219,hostfwd=tcp:127.0.0.1:14168-:14168 -serial
Nov 02 03:00:30 <nox-> stdio)
Nov 02 03:00:54 <pwnguin> ieatlint: how's the market for lawyers right now?
Nov 02 03:00:56 <Gorroth> if you think a state court can imprison you because you didn't answer a few questions in a criminal court, you are just wrong
Nov 02 03:01:22 <ieatlint> Gorroth: the state independently guarantees the right to not incriminate yourself
Nov 02 03:01:35 <pwnguin> "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. "
Nov 02 03:01:40 <DocScrutinizer> in a country where every deputy *IS* the law, the whole dispute is rather moot
Nov 02 03:02:22 <Gorroth> ieatlint: the state may have additionaly reinforced that, but it's for show.  the US Constitution is what really grants you your protection in this matter
Nov 02 03:03:39 <ieatlint> Gorroth: well, i'm oddly going to go with what i've seen, and what a friend who has passed the bar has explicitly told me
Nov 02 03:03:46 <Termana> DocScrutinizer, sir I have something to tell you
Nov 02 03:03:55 <Termana> DocScrutinizer, I... AM... THE LAW
Nov 02 03:03:57 <Termana> :p
Nov 02 03:04:22 <Gorroth> ieatlint: okay.  well, if it comes to you and me in a criminal court case, and my not answering questions is what saves me, i'll gladly plead the 5th.  you, however, can spout off whatever you like
Nov 02 03:04:47 <ieatlint> Gorroth: there's no reason to put words in my mouth to service disinformation
Nov 02 03:04:59 <Gorroth> ieatlint: btw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
Nov 02 03:05:01 <ieatlint> i explicitly said that the right to not incriminate yourself in a court of law is preserved in CA law
Nov 02 03:05:24 <ieatlint> 5th amendment doesn't apply to being questioned by the police...
Nov 02 03:05:24 <Gorroth> yes, it may be additionally held, but even if it wasn't, it doesn't mean jack
Nov 02 03:05:30 <ieatlint> it's not a court of law
Nov 02 03:05:33 <Gorroth> they could have a law that says the opposite, but it doesn't mean jack
Nov 02 03:06:02 <Gorroth> 5th amendment most certainly does apply to police officer interrogations
Nov 02 03:06:05 <Gorroth> you are stupid
Nov 02 03:06:07 <Gorroth> and that is all
Nov 02 03:06:32 <pwnguin> anyways, regarding offenses made legal
Nov 02 03:06:34 <ieatlint> heh
Nov 02 03:06:42 <pwnguin> there was a guy in jail in georgia
Nov 02 03:06:52 <pwnguin> for statuatory rape
Nov 02 03:07:24 <pwnguin> during his sentence the law was changed and he'd be a free man, but there was a shitstorm about the governor not pardoning this person
Nov 02 03:07:34 <Termana> ieatlint, Gorroth: Gorroth is correct. Their is a reason it is the United States. Each state has enter into an agreement of the United States Constitution. The state court cannot prosecute you for rights granted to you by the Constitution and by extension the Federal laws allowed to be provisioned under the Constitution.
Nov 02 03:08:17 <ieatlint> law is far more complicated than that :P
Nov 02 03:08:18 <Termana> The Hierarchy is simple, Constitution, Federal law, State Law, County Law.
Nov 02 03:08:32 <pwnguin> but seriously
Nov 02 03:08:37 <pwnguin> who would opt for a trial
Nov 02 03:09:02 <Gorroth> Termana: well, the 10th amendment allows states to override federal law if the constitution didn't grant the power to the feds
Nov 02 03:09:12 <pwnguin> heh
Nov 02 03:09:18 <pwnguin> the 9th and 10th are mostly useless
Nov 02 03:09:39 <Termana> Gorroth, you're possibly (probably) correct on that.
Nov 02 03:09:50 <pwnguin> just ask scalia
Nov 02 03:10:52 * DocScrutinizer puts a mark on his trolling calendar
Nov 02 03:10:55 <Termana> Also, just because the Federal court has Appellate jurisdiction, doesn't change the law you are to be prosecuted under
Nov 02 03:11:16 <Termana> As ieatlint has suggested (that this was the case)
Nov 02 03:11:37 <ieatlint> Gorroth: back to the original issue, http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20018327-503544.html
Nov 02 03:11:38 <Termana> It doesn't matter what court you are in, you are being prosecuted under the same law
Nov 02 03:11:44 <ieatlint> first paragraph sums it up
Nov 02 03:11:51 <ieatlint> Termana: not at all true
Nov 02 03:12:06 <ieatlint> a california court cannot enforce federal laws, nor can a federal court enforce a state law
Nov 02 03:12:30 <ieatlint> this is why we have federal and state courthouses all over
Nov 02 03:12:39 <DocScrutinizer> california court has to*obey* fed law
Nov 02 03:13:03 <pwnguin> in as much as the 14th amendment forces their hand
Nov 02 03:13:06 <ieatlint> no, although the constitution does require that each state set up a system of justice based on the federal system
Nov 02 03:13:46 <Termana> ieatlint, the different courts may have different original jurisdiction that does not mean that a lower court can prosecute in their own way
Nov 02 03:14:07 <pwnguin> Termana: orly?
Nov 02 03:14:14 <Termana> Yes, really.
Nov 02 03:14:22 <ieatlint> federal and state courts are separate hierarchies
Nov 02 03:14:42 <ieatlint> the california state supreme court cannot have its ruling appealed to the us supreme court, for instance
Nov 02 03:14:47 <ieatlint> nor vise-versa
Nov 02 03:14:49 <pwnguin> im trying to remember which northeastern state has untrained country judges
Nov 02 03:15:38 <DocScrutinizer> except if CA supreme ruling is based on laws that are in conflict with fed
Nov 02 03:15:52 <ieatlint> DocScrutinizer: special case, but yes
Nov 02 03:16:22 <Termana> ieatlint, special case? It's exactly what we're discussing
Nov 02 03:16:33 <luke-jr> ieatlint: hey
Nov 02 03:16:34 <ieatlint> how so?
Nov 02 03:16:38 <ieatlint> hey
Nov 02 03:17:07 <Termana> ieatlint, a state trying to uphold a law which is in conflict with federal law/courts or the constitution
Nov 02 03:17:34 <ieatlint> yes, which is why things like prop19 will immediately face legal challenges
Nov 02 03:18:46 <Termana> So now you're agreeing with my original statement. You are prosecuted under the same laws no matter what court you are in.
Nov 02 03:19:01 <pwnguin> how about this
Nov 02 03:19:10 <pwnguin> nobody smoke until the smoke clears on the subject ;)
Nov 02 03:19:27 <ieatlint> Termana: no, not at all
Nov 02 03:19:37 <Termana> Because a state court cannot prosecute you if the federal courts/law or constitution is in direct conflict on the matter
Nov 02 03:19:59 <Termana> A federal court cannot prosecute you if it is in violation of the constitution.
Nov 02 03:20:00 <luke-jr> Termana: prove it.
Nov 02 03:20:06 <ieatlint> if prop19 passes, a local state court cannot say "fuck 19, federal law says it's illegal, so we're charging you"
Nov 02 03:20:29 <Termana> ieatlint, good luck with the appeal on that.
Nov 02 03:20:39 <Termana> They'll be charged
Nov 02 03:20:46 <ieatlint> not by state courts
Nov 02 03:20:49 <luke-jr> I have personally witnessed state courts infringe on one's US Constitution rights
Nov 02 03:21:08 <ieatlint> hell, as the law stands right now, a state criminal court cannot charge me for 1oz or less of pot
Nov 02 03:21:09 <DocScrutinizer> if prop19 was against fed legislation, then no way it ever made it such far
Nov 02 03:21:11 <Termana> luke-jr, ok sorry I should be more clear. A state court can, but that doesn't mean it will last
Nov 02 03:21:31 <luke-jr> Termana: the state's supreme court ruled that the Constitution doesn't apply to all cases.
Nov 02 03:21:42 <ieatlint> DocScrutinizer: it is, and the US attorney general has said he will go after people who violate federal drug laws
Nov 02 03:21:50 <nox-> isnt it often more about who has more money to spend on lawyers etc?
Nov 02 03:22:16 <ieatlint> nox-: always, yes
Nov 02 03:22:27 <ieatlint> "the colour of american justice is green"
Nov 02 03:22:43 <luke-jr> Termana: specifically, that cases involving children's "well-being" void the Constitutional rights
Nov 02 03:22:49 <luke-jr> for the sake of the children
Nov 02 03:23:49 <Gorroth> ieatlint: prop 19 is a clear-cut 10th amendment issue.  the feds will lose
Nov 02 03:24:02 <ieatlint> Gorroth: good luck there
Nov 02 03:24:15 <DocScrutinizer> damn, when I ponder about it... SURE, USA is THE country to teach other nations about freedom and democracy and right
Nov 02 03:24:18 <luke-jr> what about prop 0x19?
Nov 02 03:24:22 <Gorroth> ieatlint: also, any state can pass a law stating you cannot have tatoos.  upon entering the state, you could be arrested.  you'd win.
Nov 02 03:24:28 <ieatlint> DocScrutinizer: lol
Nov 02 03:24:36 <luke-jr> DocScrutinizer: democracy is retarded
Nov 02 03:24:48 <Gorroth> ieatlint: you are just completely ignorant about the law.  you should learn what you're talking about before entering a debate on it
Nov 02 03:25:09 <Gorroth> ieatlint: i don't care what your "lawyer bar friend" said.  he probably was talking about something else or was a first-year that didn't know anything
Nov 02 03:25:11 <ieatlint> Gorroth: you've been misled :P
Nov 02 03:25:27 <Gorroth> ieatlint: i've read up on it and seen more case outcomes than you have, obviously
Nov 02 03:25:29 <ieatlint> states do make restrictions like that all the time
Nov 02 03:25:40 <ieatlint> try and bring a bunch of dildos to texas for instance
Nov 02 03:25:49 <Gorroth> sure they do.  and then they get slammed if they step on the US Constitution
Nov 02 03:25:52 <ieatlint> or hell -- try and bring some fruit into california in your car
Nov 02 03:25:55 <Gorroth> have you ever actually heard about supreme court rulrings?
Nov 02 03:26:24 <luke-jr> Gorroth: you assume people can tolerate a wait for an appeal
Nov 02 03:26:29 <Gorroth> anyway, it's obvious you aren't open to learning the truth.  you wish to be dogmatic in your ignorance, and i can take no part in it
Nov 02 03:26:36 <Gorroth> luke-jr: that is irrelevant
Nov 02 03:26:42 <luke-jr> if you cannot appeal, it doesn't matter if they're doing stuff illegal
Nov 02 03:26:48 <ieatlint> you're going to be rudely awakened one day
Nov 02 03:27:32 <Gorroth> luke-jr: that is beside the point
Nov 02 03:28:00 <Gorroth> ieatlint: i'm sorry, but i'm not.  you will be when you let your rights get stomped.  it's people like you that are letting our freedoms erode
Nov 02 03:28:02 <luke-jr> my point is that in practice, the State is above the law.
Nov 02 03:28:04 <Gorroth> and you disgust me
Nov 02 03:28:40 <ieatlint> Gorroth: you're grossly mistaken.. i'm extremely well informed of my rights, and impressively i'm still not an asshole to police officers
Nov 02 03:28:46 <Gorroth> luke-jr: that isn't the case.  there are several counter-examples, but i don't wish to find them now
Nov 02 03:28:57 <Gorroth> luke-jr: for anyone willing, the option is there to fight, and people do
Nov 02 03:29:00 <ieatlint> i live in this crazy area called the middle, where i'm not a fanatic, but i support the ACLU
Nov 02 03:29:13 <ieatlint> and i've seen the legal system "work"
Nov 02 03:29:19 <luke-jr> Gorroth: sometimes the cost of fighting is greater than the cost of surrender
Nov 02 03:29:22 <luke-jr> even if you win
Nov 02 03:29:38 <Gorroth> ieatlint: no, based on what you said, you will clearly let your rights be trampled.
Nov 02 03:29:43 <Gorroth> have fun with it, ieatlint
Nov 02 03:29:48 <ieatlint> fanaticism in all its forms is disturbing to me
Nov 02 03:30:16 <Gorroth> what does fanaticism have to do with this discussion of how the US legal system is setup
Nov 02 03:30:27 <ieatlint> your blinded by your biases, and spew hatred onto those who differ. you end up marginalising your beliefs in the eyes of most people
Nov 02 03:30:29 <luke-jr> do you decline to show ID when flying on airplanes?
Nov 02 03:31:00 <Gorroth> luke-jr: no, because you have no right to fly
Nov 02 03:31:02 <ieatlint> you lost any respect when you chose to attack me, and make a wild accusation
Nov 02 03:31:12 <luke-jr> Gorroth: so?
Nov 02 03:31:19 <luke-jr> it's still optional.
Nov 02 03:31:32 <Gorroth> it's not optional if you want on the plane, because you don't have the right to fly
Nov 02 03:31:45 <luke-jr> it is optional. just tell them you opt not to show your ID.
Nov 02 03:31:54 <luke-jr> you still get to fly.
Nov 02 03:32:01 <luke-jr> you also get the full security pat-down
Nov 02 03:32:04 <Gorroth> and they will kindly tell you you can't fly, because you have no right to fly
Nov 02 03:32:14 <ieatlint> oh, and apologies to everyone else in here... i should've never said a word about anything so off topic, let alone carry it on uselessly for so long :P
Nov 02 03:32:15 * luke-jr has actually flown without showing ID ☺
Nov 02 03:32:45 <Gorroth> ah, yes, actually, that makess sense, luke-jr ; i do remember seeing someone do that in front of me
Nov 02 03:32:50 <Gorroth> they just ask them more questions
Nov 02 03:33:45 <Gorroth> ieatlint: yeah, it would've been best if you just learned that you aren't well-informed about how the legal system works and couldn't even tell the difference between a civil and criminal case
Nov 02 03:34:11 <ieatlint> Gorroth: please refrain from further insults and let the issue rest
Nov 02 03:34:55 <Gorroth> ieatlint: oh, you are telling me to stop now?  do you just like to get the last word in or something now?  it's just a fact you don't know case law well at all and clearly don't understand your rights.  that's all i am saying
Nov 02 03:35:17 <ieatlint> Gorroth: i'm pleading for sanity at this point, nothing more
Nov 02 03:35:54 <Gorroth> okay, i will stop talking about it, safe in the sanity of knowing i'm right and you're wrong :)
Nov 02 03:36:46 <DocScrutinizer> so seems I started it in some strange way, now I plead to have the last word on it. OT ALARM!
Nov 02 03:37:24 <ieatlint> DocScrutinizer: :P
Nov 02 03:37:32 <ieatlint> i apologised :)
Nov 02 03:40:51 <Gorroth> just one last thing, ieatlint , read california penal code 15 and 16
Nov 02 03:40:54 <Gorroth> okay, that's all
Nov 02 03:40:58 <ieatlint> Gorroth: dude, just drop it
Nov 02 03:40:59 <ieatlint> move on
Nov 02 03:42:04 <Gorroth> okay, i will.  i take it you won't read it then.  :-/
Nov 02 03:42:31 <DocScrutinizer> Gorroth: please take it elsewhere
Nov 02 03:42:53 <Gorroth> already been done taken :)  that was the last thing he needed to know :)
Nov 02 03:48:06 <Termana> wow, looks like I had to walk away before it got really messy.
Nov 02 03:48:10 <Termana> Anyway, something OT
Nov 02 03:48:44 <DocScrutinizer> Termana: stfu and eat your rice :-P
Nov 02 03:48:48 <Termana> DocScrutinizer, did you say yesterday that the PR1.3 awake-on-charger issue was related to the rouge kernel activity
Nov 02 03:48:56 <Termana> -the
Nov 02 03:49:21 <DocScrutinizer> Termana: please rephrase
Nov 02 03:50:07 <Termana> DocScrutinizer, with regard to the PR1.3 issue how the N900 will stay awake and at higher frequencies when using a wallwart charger than on PR1.2, what exactly is causing it?
Nov 02 03:50:38 <Termana> Kernel? BME? Something else? etc.
Nov 02 03:50:43 <DocScrutinizer> something in kernel, as it also shows with 1.3 kernel on a 1.1.1 rootfs
Nov 02 03:51:56 <Termana> DocScrutinizer, so switching back to a PR1.2 kernel should fix the issue? (assuming the slightly older kernel isn't for some reason incompatible with the new rootfs, radio etc.)
Nov 02 03:52:08 <DocScrutinizer> yep
Nov 02 03:52:49 <nox-> oh so just install kernel-power despite it still being for 1.2?
Nov 02 03:52:57 <DocScrutinizer> sure
Nov 02 03:53:05 <nox-> mmh
Nov 02 03:53:06 <DocScrutinizer> if it fits and works
Nov 02 03:53:21 <nox-> heh it does seem broken in madde qemu...
Nov 02 03:53:25 <nox-> with 1.2 rootfs
Nov 02 03:53:33 <nox-> FATAL: Module kfgles2 not found.
Nov 02 03:54:42 <nox-> anyone willing to test? ;)
Nov 02 03:55:10 <nox-> (could be qemu issue afterall...)
Nov 02 03:55:20 <Gorroth> hmm, i should install kernel-power on pr1.3?  i have kernel-maemo
Nov 02 03:55:57 <nox-> if you're willing to take rescue actions should it not boot, yeah
Nov 02 03:56:29 <Gorroth> oh, based on the kernel-power info, at least, it says i should use that to transition to the new kernel-power name.  doesn't really say anything else
Nov 02 03:56:39 <Gorroth> i mean i don't think i'm having any problems, but i don't know
Nov 02 03:58:16 <DocScrutinizer> well, old kernel with new rootfs is highly prone to break. New kernel on old rootfs is usually much less problematic
Nov 02 03:58:35 <nox-> mh
Nov 02 03:58:49 <nox-> anyone willing to update kernel-power for 1.3?
Nov 02 03:58:59 <Gorroth> which one is the new kernel?  kernel-power is what i gather
Nov 02 03:58:59 <DocScrutinizer> as new kernels should keep compatibility to older versions, and kernel doesn't care much about rootfs
Nov 02 03:59:23 <nox-> 1.3 has a new kernel
Nov 02 03:59:36 <nox-> kernel-power still seems to be from 1.2
Nov 02 03:59:39 <DocScrutinizer> with a bug
Nov 02 03:59:46 <DocScrutinizer> (1.3)
Nov 02 03:59:46 <nox-> yeah 1.3 has a bug
Nov 02 04:00:21 <Gorroth> wait, you guys just confused me :)  is kernel-power the one you recommend, or kernel-maemo?  on 1.3 here
Nov 02 04:00:49 <nox-> kernel-power if you're willing to experiment (and report back :)
Nov 02 04:01:00 <DocScrutinizer> I recommend you stay with stock 1.3 until further investigations
Nov 02 04:01:16 <nox-> yeah 1.3 is safer
Nov 02 04:01:28 <Gorroth> DocScrutinizer: meaning kernel-maemo then i guess, since that's what came installed when i upgraded with the OTA update
Nov 02 04:01:35 <nox-> yep
Nov 02 04:01:41 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Nov 02 04:01:43 <Gorroth> okay, exceellent
Nov 02 04:02:01 <Gorroth> i'm not willing to experiment on that aspect; so, i'll just take 'er nice an' easy with the stock kernel :)
Nov 02 04:02:19 <Gorroth> maybe later
Nov 02 04:02:24 <nox-> just dont leave on charger for unecessarly long time then
Nov 02 04:02:32 <Gorroth> ok
Nov 02 04:02:36 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, the bug isn't affecting you much anyway
Nov 02 04:03:09 <Gorroth> okay.  i'll just charge it while i'm able to watch it, like at work
Nov 02 04:03:33 <DocScrutinizer> nox-: on pre 1.3 kernels we had same behaviour only for USB host attached to N900
Nov 02 04:03:50 <nox-> ah when testing hostmode?
Nov 02 04:03:55 <DocScrutinizer> and it was intentional (though I dunno why)
Nov 02 04:03:57 <Gorroth> from what i read earlier in this chat, leaving the power connected will kill the battery?
Nov 02 04:04:00 <danu> guys , do you guys have any success in running GMapCatcher on N900 ?
Nov 02 04:04:15 <nox-> ah no other way around (right?)
Nov 02 04:04:39 <Termana> Gorroth, that's not exactly what I said
Nov 02 04:04:44 <DocScrutinizer> nox-: attach any pre-1.3 device to a host PC and watch CPU freq
Nov 02 04:04:51 <Gorroth> Termana: i probably misunderstood then
Nov 02 04:04:53 <nox-> yeah ok
Nov 02 04:04:54 <Termana> I said it will degrade the battery at a higher rate
Nov 02 04:05:00 <Gorroth> oh, okay
Nov 02 04:05:07 <DocScrutinizer> nox-: bug in pr1.3 is just it does same thing for charger now
Nov 02 04:05:10 <Gorroth> well, thanks for the warning; i wasn't aware of that at all
Nov 02 04:05:17 <nox-> ok
Nov 02 04:06:46 <DocScrutinizer> keeping backlight always-on also had same cell-wearing effect since 1.0, as charging never stops
Nov 02 04:07:02 <budfive> I'm using kernel-power with 1.3
Nov 02 04:07:03 <budfive> works fine
Nov 02 04:07:09 <danu> do you guys have any success in running GMapCatcher on N900 ?
Nov 02 04:07:23 <nox-> budfive, ah cool
Nov 02 04:07:32 <nox-> budfive, from extras or from extras-devel?
Nov 02 04:07:45 <budfive> nox-: errr... Probably extras-devel
Nov 02 04:08:05 <budfive> nox-: they're all in my sources.list, so if there's a choice it's probably using the extras-devel one
Nov 02 04:08:06 <nox-> mind doing a quick apt-cache policy? :)
Nov 02 04:08:16 <budfive> sure. hold on
Nov 02 04:08:29 <Gorroth> budfive: dpkg -l | grep kernel-power ... what version does it list?
Nov 02 04:08:43 <budfive> yeah, i know. hold on. looking for phone
Nov 02 04:08:52 <danu> do you guys have any success in running GMapCatcher on N900 ?
Nov 02 04:08:54 <Gorroth> hehe, you can't just ssh to it by now? :-P
Nov 02 04:09:01 <DocScrutinizer> danu: please!!!
Nov 02 04:09:09 <danu> sorry Doc
Nov 02 04:09:24 <danu> nobody was replying to me
Nov 02 04:09:30 <budfive> Gorroth: can't have network on all the time. too much drain
Nov 02 04:09:37 <DocScrutinizer> so probably nobody had an answer
Nov 02 04:09:37 <Gorroth> yeah
Nov 02 04:09:42 <budfive> package version 2.6.28-maemo40
Nov 02 04:09:55 <budfive> uname -r shows 2.6.28.10power40
Nov 02 04:09:56 <danu> Doc  it sounds like it is
Nov 02 04:10:04 <Gorroth> if i get squid setup, i'm buying that huge battery adapter they have for the n900.  the one that makes it look like you're holding a late 90s PDA
Nov 02 04:10:17 <Gorroth> so i can keep it on a long time
Nov 02 04:10:36 <nox-> budfive, thx
Nov 02 04:10:41 <Gorroth> thanks budfive
Nov 02 04:11:21 <Gorroth> looks like the extras-devel then, because i just have extras-testing enabled, and it doesn't go up that high
Nov 02 04:11:22 <budfive> Can anybody enlighten me about any changes to the bootloader in 1.3? Supposedly it can dualboot meego. What changed exactly to make that happen?
Nov 02 04:11:49 <nox-> yep 2.6.28-maemo40 def. looks like extras-devel
Nov 02 04:11:54 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: fud, nonsense, missconception
Nov 02 04:12:03 <Gorroth> budfive: i'm not sure exactly what you need to do, but i know it can boot a second OS from the SD card
Nov 02 04:12:07 <Gorroth> i don't know how to set that up though
Nov 02 04:12:49 <budfive> Don't particularly want to mess with meego, but I'll want to mess with the kernel in the near future.
Nov 02 04:12:57 <budfive> flasher should still work as before?
Nov 02 04:13:00 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: they (allegedly) fixed kexec in pr1.3 kernel. But that's really unrelated to real dualboot
Nov 02 04:13:18 <danu> guys Can you suggest me a good alternative to GMapCatcher except Ovi maps on N900  where i can browse maps offline ?
Nov 02 04:13:30 <budfive> k. thanks
Nov 02 04:13:35 <Gorroth> budfive: yeah, i'm not in the meego camp either.  i might stay in the maemo camp for a while once i get this thing setup how i like
Nov 02 04:15:26 <budfive> danu: tangogps, mappero, maep, ...
Nov 02 04:16:11 <danu> TY budfive , i am checking them now
Nov 02 04:36:42 <opdf2> I had qik when it was free
Nov 02 04:36:55 <opdf2> updated to 1.3, now its not free in ovi
Nov 02 04:37:03 <nox-> yeah thx again from me too budfive, /me mack on kernel-power now too
Nov 02 04:37:15 <opdf2> I have a backup, how can install free qik again
Nov 02 04:47:51 <nox-> dpki -i?
Nov 02 04:47:56 <nox-> (if you are lucky)
Nov 02 04:49:35 <nox-> dpkg -i even
Nov 02 04:54:33 <nox-> hm the official tangogps deb needs libcurl3-gnutls, in which repo is that?
Nov 02 05:04:14 <Gorroth> running configure script for squid and my options to it in the maemo 5 sdk scratchbox... sweet!  it finished
Nov 02 05:04:21 <Gorroth> let's see if this code actually builds or not
Nov 02 05:06:49 <Gorroth> if i can get a package built, i'll submit it to the maemo repo people
Nov 02 05:07:27 <Gorroth> hopefully someone other than me will enjoy it too
Nov 02 05:08:27 <DocScrutinizer51> damn, select service in dialer doesn't work anymore, to do SIP calls. Also I can't find that "use SIP for phone calls" config option. Where was that?
Nov 02 05:12:41 <budfive> DocScrutinizer51: do you use sip AND a cell number, or purely sip?
Nov 02 05:13:11 <DocScrutinizer51> both, otherwise select service wouldn't make sense
Nov 02 05:15:59 <budfive> DocScrutinizer51: which number do you give to people?
Nov 02 05:16:39 <budfive> I got a sip account to complement my cell recently, with the goal to only have my cell number be publicly visible
Nov 02 05:16:42 <Gorroth> well, squid built on the X86 fremantle sdk
Nov 02 05:16:56 <Gorroth> now i guess i have to try on the armel version
Nov 02 05:17:01 <budfive> any way to make calls to the cell number redirect to sip if the phone isn't connected to the cell network that you know of?
Nov 02 05:17:26 <budfive> the gsm redirect codes don't work for whatever reason
Nov 02 05:17:39 <Termana> budfive, in answer to your question before, MeeGo/N900 uses a chainloaded u-boot solution to dual boot. Also, the kernel will not work on Maemo, because it is a mainline kernel and mainline kernels have rejected several interfaces that Maemo relies on, which MeeGo has ditched.
Nov 02 05:18:02 <Termana> and mainline has*
Nov 02 05:18:10 <Termana> (there is only really one mainline :p)
Nov 02 05:19:39 <budfive> Termana: ok... I'm a bit confused. I've only been running the packaged kernel-power kernel, which presumably has the maemo-specific patches applied to it
Nov 02 05:20:08 <budfive> Termana: and as for the bootloader, it goes nolo->uboot->linux ?
Nov 02 05:21:19 <Termana> budfive, exactly. You flash a combined u-boot image as a kernel, which contains u-boot and the Maemo kernel. NOLO will load u-boot see if you have a valid kernel on your SD card, if it does it will boot that one, if not it will boot the combined one and boot Maemo
Nov 02 05:23:32 <Termana> budfive, as to why the MeeGo kernel won't work, it's because MeeGo uses a mainline kernel. So the N900 patches have been put into Linus' tree and then that's pulled by MeeGo and used (with some extra patches on top by that's not in consideration here). But Linus' (or rather maintainers for the mainline tree) have rejected some kernel interfaces which Maemo relies on, so those patches didn't go upstream into Linus' tree. MeeGo doesn't
Nov 02 05:23:32 <Termana> rely on these interfaces
Nov 02 05:23:35 <ham5> how do I edit the gconf.xml with out them reverting back when I reboot?
Nov 02 05:23:43 <ham5> s/edit/change
Nov 02 05:24:58 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: install starhash-enabler
Nov 02 05:26:19 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: whoa. wait. the codes are disabled without it?
Nov 02 05:26:27 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Nov 02 05:26:38 <budfive> Termana: thanks
Nov 02 05:27:19 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: ok. crazy. is doing the gsm redirection the way to go?
Nov 02 05:27:36 <DocScrutinizer> usually
Nov 02 05:27:57 <johnx> off-topic: anyone ever play with i2o? (not i2c!)
Nov 02 05:28:51 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: is it possible for the provider to lock down the redirection number? I'm unable to change the voicebox number in the n900 gui, which makes me suspect funny business from tmobile
Nov 02 05:29:34 <andrewfblack> budfive: I think that might be set by the sim card
Nov 02 05:29:39 <DocScrutinizer> quite usual
Nov 02 05:30:04 <budfive> so if you can't change it, is there a way for the call to be automatically transferred to the sip number?
Nov 02 05:30:54 <DocScrutinizer> nope
Nov 02 05:31:03 <budfive> great :)
Nov 02 05:37:42 <Gorroth> oh yeah!  squid built with all my options under the FREMANTLE_ARMEL scratchbox
Nov 02 05:38:00 <Gorroth> i hope this means good things when i try running it in the simulator, which will have to happen tomorrow
Nov 02 05:39:12 <Gorroth> wb DocScrutinizer
Nov 02 05:52:21 <ebzzry_> Hi! Does anyone here knows how frequent RobbieThe1st logs in here?
Nov 02 06:04:25 <TermanaDesire> ebzzry_: often
Nov 02 06:05:05 <SpeedEvil> !seen robbiethe1st
Nov 02 06:06:47 <ebzzry_> Termana: Thanks.
Nov 02 06:08:36 <DocScrutinizer51> ~seen robbiethe1st
Nov 02 06:08:43 <infobot> robbiethe1st <~robbiethe@174-31-2-220.spkn.qwest.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 19h 59m 45s ago, saying: 'Quick question: I have a ash script with a loop: while [ -n '$(ps | grep "^ $pid")' ]; do  <- it works on my debian box with busybox's ash, but when I actually run the script, it doesn't exit the loop when $pid exits'.
Nov 02 06:09:12 <ebzzry_> I want to know how does BackupMenu work.
Nov 02 06:10:43 <DocScrutinizer51> which detail?
Nov 02 06:11:36 <ebzzry_> Where are the images stored, for example.
Nov 02 06:21:53 <ebzzry> Hmm, do some applications, presumably compatible with PR 1.2, become incompatible with PR 1.3?
Nov 02 06:36:00 <TermanaDesire> Its presumably a possibility that it maybe the case
Nov 02 06:36:52 <TermanaDesire> Does that not not answer your question?
Nov 02 06:37:43 <johnx> ebzzry, yes. I think I ran into an incompatibility with libgles1 (or similar)
Nov 02 06:38:02 <ebzzry> Is it documented? Is it reproducible?
Nov 02 06:38:12 <ebzzry> What are the implications of it?
Nov 02 06:38:32 <johnx> I think armagetrod (or gltron?) or something like that
Nov 02 06:38:41 <johnx> it had to do with apps that depend on a certain version of gles1
Nov 02 06:38:54 <johnx> which is quite different than gles2
Nov 02 06:39:34 <ebzzry> OK. What about show-stopping incompatibilities? Are there any?
Nov 02 06:40:41 <johnx> not that I've found
Nov 02 06:40:50 <johnx> but I don't have many apps installed
Nov 02 06:40:56 <johnx> did you google?
Nov 02 06:41:05 <johnx> did you read talk.maemo.org?
Nov 02 07:26:46 <mece> hello hello maemonians
Nov 02 07:33:42 <Termana_> mece, hello slave boy
Nov 02 07:34:17 <mece> lol
Nov 02 07:37:45 <mece> is there an app for modifying browser user agent or does one do that directly?
Nov 02 07:39:33 <valdyn> mece: use the search function in the app manager?
Nov 02 07:40:32 <valdyn> mece: HideUserAgent
Nov 02 07:42:17 <ieatlint> alright, the riot outside was funny at first, but now it's just getting ridiculous
Nov 02 07:42:28 <mece> thanks valdyn, I was going to pretend I'm a palm pre :)
Nov 02 07:42:34 <mece> ieatlint, riot? Where?
Nov 02 07:42:43 <ieatlint> san francisco
Nov 02 07:44:11 <johnx> aaaah, you guys are having a riot and you didn't invite me
Nov 02 07:44:12 <johnx> ?
Nov 02 07:44:22 <mece> ieatlint, what is it about? Teabagger party, prop8 or what?
Nov 02 07:44:34 <ieatlint> you can come out and join, it's still going strong
Nov 02 07:44:40 <ieatlint> mece: no, something far far lamer
Nov 02 07:44:43 <ieatlint> baseball.
Nov 02 07:44:47 <mece> ieatlint, noooo
Nov 02 07:44:48 <johnx> <_<
Nov 02 07:44:55 <mece> ieatlint, that is lame.
Nov 02 07:44:57 <johnx> wow...that sucks
Nov 02 07:45:16 <ieatlint> no one cared about baseball here, and then we won the league championship, and now it's an awesome excuse to start fires and throw bottles
Nov 02 07:45:24 <mece> hahaha
Nov 02 07:45:55 <ieatlint> they're actually throwing bottles at the firefighters that are responding to the fires, and stealing their firehoses
Nov 02 07:46:03 <johnx> just tell them $local_politician wants to shut down funding for $local_team and they live at $place_you_want_demolished
Nov 02 07:46:14 <mece> johnx, for reals
Nov 02 07:46:30 <mece> ieatlint, attacking firefighters is always constructive...
Nov 02 07:47:53 <ieatlint> http://twitpic.com/335z8h a beautiful night in the city..
Nov 02 07:49:27 <johnx> that's some craziness
Nov 02 07:50:04 <johnx> (this actually makes someone else's blog entry make a lot more sense now ...)
Nov 02 08:03:56 <crashanddie> sup #maemo
Nov 02 08:08:21 <mece> hmm perhaps this could be useful: http://forums.precentral.net/gsm-pre/234260-ipk-fetcher.html
Nov 02 08:08:31 * mece is experimenting with preenv
Nov 02 08:12:57 <anger> has someone managed to use ms office communicator on n900?
Nov 02 08:13:52 <Surfa> yes
Nov 02 08:13:56 <anger> I suppose it only works with pidgin, not with the default messenger app?
Nov 02 08:14:22 <Surfa> it's possible with suitable plugins also with default messenger app
Nov 02 08:14:33 <anger> really?
Nov 02 08:14:40 <anger> what plugin exactly?
Nov 02 08:15:07 <anger> I installed the office communicator plugin for pidgin, but it was only visible in pidgin
Nov 02 08:15:58 <Surfa> can't help you with details, but it's possible anyway :)
Nov 02 08:16:08 <anger> :)
Nov 02 08:16:48 <anger> You have office communicator listed on your account list?
Nov 02 08:16:57 <anger> or do you use sip?
Nov 02 08:18:03 <chem|st> anger: what is office communicator? another office 2010 bug ehrm feature?
Nov 02 08:18:16 <Surfa> anger, yes I do
Nov 02 08:18:19 <Surfa> not sip
Nov 02 08:18:45 <danu> Hello guys , i am looking for a tool to swap between mass storage mode and pc suite mode for N900 , rather than unplugging and plugging in the usb cable , is there such a tool available ?
Nov 02 08:19:23 <Stskeeps> morn wazd
Nov 02 08:19:25 <anger> chem|st: similar to msn messenger, just integrates a bit better to outlook etc
Nov 02 08:19:46 <anger> chem|st: and includes video confrences and desktop sharing, etc
Nov 02 08:20:05 <chem|st> anger: so MS skype?!
Nov 02 08:20:26 <anger> and most important, it's an enterprise app, so companies buy it :)
Nov 02 08:20:47 <anger> chem|st: pretty much so
Nov 02 08:21:06 <anger> you just have to pay for this :)
Nov 02 08:21:19 <danu> i am looking for a tool to swap between mass storage mode and pc suite mode for N900 , rather than unplugging and plugging in the usb cable , is there such a tool available ?
Nov 02 08:23:48 <RobbieThe1st> Not sure, though it -is- possible to mount the eMMC while connected via USB(as readonly at least)
Nov 02 08:24:08 <johnx> Stskeeps, so, how is the armv6 build going? any snags yet?
Nov 02 08:24:18 <danu> i am seriously fed up with unplugging and plugging the usb cable
Nov 02 08:24:27 <danu> i dont want to hurt my N900 :(
Nov 02 08:24:36 <johnx> <- wrong channel
Nov 02 08:24:38 <RobbieThe1st> so, wait... why do you need to switch, again?
Nov 02 08:24:58 <mece> danu why are you plugging and unplugging?
Nov 02 08:25:24 <danu> since i am on linux , in order to switch to mass storage mode from pc suite mode , i have to unplug and plug the cable
Nov 02 08:25:40 <RobbieThe1st> Yea, but I mean, why do you need to switch between modes?
Nov 02 08:25:52 <danu> sometimes i have to copy files into N900
Nov 02 08:26:01 <danu> and sometimes i have to use internet on N900
Nov 02 08:26:05 <mece> danu scp is your friend
Nov 02 08:26:08 <danu> i cannot do both with same mode
Nov 02 08:26:08 <RobbieThe1st> ^^
Nov 02 08:26:19 <danu> scp is good
Nov 02 08:26:29 <danu> but i prefer a tool to switch those modes :D
Nov 02 08:26:37 <RobbieThe1st> Not sure that's possible
Nov 02 08:26:46 <danu> it shud be possible
Nov 02 08:26:51 <danu> its a matter of research i guess
Nov 02 08:26:53 <mece> only reason I've had to plug the usb cable is to use flasher to boot meego.
Nov 02 08:27:15 <RobbieThe1st> But, heck, with linux - You can just use the filemanager to login via ssh
Nov 02 08:27:18 <mece> danu, no wlan?
Nov 02 08:27:21 <RobbieThe1st> drag+drop support is easy
Nov 02 08:27:34 <danu> lets say i am on storage mode on N900 , i cannot use internet on N900
Nov 02 08:27:48 <mece> danu, erm wot?
Nov 02 08:27:54 <danu> and when N900 is on PC suite mode , i cannot use internet on the PC
Nov 02 08:27:56 <tybollt> woot
Nov 02 08:27:58 <danu> sorry No Wlan
Nov 02 08:28:07 <danu> i am using  usb networking
Nov 02 08:28:08 <danu> :D
Nov 02 08:28:14 <mece> danu, aah so you use your n900 for 3g tethering?
Nov 02 08:28:28 <RobbieThe1st> danu: Put it on pc-suite mode, then use ssh for everything else
Nov 02 08:28:42 <johnx> ssh / sftp / sshfs is the way to go
Nov 02 08:28:51 <RobbieThe1st> You can use SSH for internet access - setup a tunnel between devices, or for file copying
Nov 02 08:28:57 <johnx> only need to switch to usb mass storage for huuuge file transferes
Nov 02 08:29:08 <danu> okay
Nov 02 08:29:23 <mece> hm what's the command for refreshing icon cache again? gtk icon cache something something?
Nov 02 08:29:25 <mece> hmpf
Nov 02 08:29:26 <danu> until i get a tool to switch modes , i am going to use ssh :D
Nov 02 08:29:38 <danu> thanks for the tip guys :D
Nov 02 08:30:41 <mece> found it. gtk-update-icon-cache -f /usr/share/icons/hicolor
Nov 02 08:31:17 <danu> another thing  , i am using maep and mappero for maps on N900 , but not really satisfied with it ,  any other alternatives ?
Nov 02 08:31:40 <andrewfblack> danu: geeps
Nov 02 08:32:00 <danu> andrew thanks  let me test it
Nov 02 08:33:45 <danu> andrew : does it support offline tracking ?
Nov 02 08:33:59 <Jaffa> mece: You're not supposed to need that since PR1.1 (it became a no-op)
Nov 02 08:35:03 <RobbieThe1st> offline tracking?
Nov 02 08:36:12 <danu> lets say once the maps are downloaded ,  then that app does not need internet again
Nov 02 08:36:18 <danu> that is what i wanted to mean
Nov 02 08:36:37 <RobbieThe1st> So, if you don't have a data plan, it
Nov 02 08:36:40 <RobbieThe1st> 's still usable?
Nov 02 08:37:28 <kerio> RobbieThe1st: hmm, no
Nov 02 08:38:13 <RobbieThe1st> Wait... what GPS-software -does- allow that?
Nov 02 08:38:31 <danu> here  3G is expensive
Nov 02 08:38:41 <RobbieThe1st> i.e. download maps at home, use it on-the-go without internet
Nov 02 08:38:44 <danu> so i am sharing my broadband with N900
Nov 02 08:39:10 <danu> and use it to download maps into N900
Nov 02 08:39:11 <danu> so when i am on the go , app shud use the downloaded maps for tracking
Nov 02 08:39:20 <danu> exactly Rabbie !
Nov 02 08:39:40 <aquatix> danu: i can recommend Sygic
Nov 02 08:39:48 <aquatix> works offline
Nov 02 08:39:53 <aquatix> and works quite well here
Nov 02 08:39:54 <danu> Sygic does not have maps for my country :(
Nov 02 08:39:57 <aquatix> oh :(
Nov 02 08:40:04 <aquatix> really? it has a lot of maps
Nov 02 08:40:13 <aquatix> may i ask which country you're from?
Nov 02 08:40:24 <danu> of course  i am from Sri Lanka :D
Nov 02 08:40:36 <danu> even ovi maps are not available :(
Nov 02 08:40:47 <danu> only google maps work
Nov 02 08:40:59 <aquatix> :(
Nov 02 08:41:37 <danu> so app has to use google maps and has to work without internet :D
Nov 02 08:41:56 <danu> maep works but map images are blurred
Nov 02 08:41:58 <Myrtti> sounds hilarious and repetetive
Nov 02 08:42:16 <danu> Myrtti  of course
Nov 02 08:42:19 <danu> its hard to explain
Nov 02 08:42:24 <danu> :D
Nov 02 08:42:35 <danu> app has to use saved google maps when i am on the go
Nov 02 08:43:24 <aquatix> hey Myrtti :)
Nov 02 08:43:38 <mece> rednecks vs aliens sounds like a good game....
Nov 02 08:43:45 <aquatix> i think there's some app for caching google maps and/or openstreetmap
Nov 02 08:43:51 <danu> gmapcatcher shud be the tool
Nov 02 08:44:09 <danu> for that
Nov 02 08:44:19 <danu> but i am not sure whether its ported into N900
Nov 02 08:44:24 <aquatix> mece: interesting subject
Nov 02 08:44:42 <mece> let's see if it works on N900 then...
Nov 02 08:44:49 <Myrtti> listening to SF police scanner they just relieved the coppers working overtime
Nov 02 08:45:08 <danu> mece , good luck :D
Nov 02 08:45:23 <mece> danu, :)
Nov 02 08:45:54 <Jaffa> RobbieThe1st: Wayfinder did exactly that in Diablo; and - as aquatix says - I believe Sygic works the same.
Nov 02 08:46:26 <Jaffa> Any GPS software which requires a network connection for one or more of: maps, searching, routing is just not a go-er for me; since I mostly use GPS when driving around Europe and don't want to be paying a fortune for roaming data.
Nov 02 08:50:41 <RobbieThe1st> Yea
Nov 02 08:50:54 <RobbieThe1st> Sygic might be a good idea, but its too pricy for me now
Nov 02 08:51:15 <danu> also Sygic has no maps for my country :(
Nov 02 09:07:24 <RST38h> Well...moo.
Nov 02 09:08:08 <mece> hmpf. apparently the ipkfetcher doesn't actually fetch the ipk's :/
Nov 02 09:08:20 <mece> only creates a dummy that can be upgraded with palm pre catalog app.
Nov 02 09:11:16 <danu> guys , when i connect the N900 on PC Suite Mode , I can access internet on N900 , but not on the PC , definitely due to a dns issue , do you know any solution to this ?
Nov 02 09:14:40 <jacktheripper> is it possible to send two fake simultaneous touch inputs to an application ?
Nov 02 09:16:00 <jacekowski> not at the moment
Nov 02 09:16:14 <jacekowski> there is no touch support at the moment
Nov 02 09:16:19 <jacekowski> it's all using mouse events
Nov 02 09:16:28 <RobbieThe1st> danu: /etc/resolv.conf
Nov 02 09:17:10 <danu> # Generated by NetworkManager
Nov 02 09:17:10 <danu> nameserver 192.168.2.1
Nov 02 09:17:15 <danu> this is what on my PC
Nov 02 09:17:29 <danu> shall i add more dns into that ?
Nov 02 09:17:46 <jacekowski> danu: hmm, how are you connecting to internet on pc
Nov 02 09:17:55 <RobbieThe1st> It can't hurt
Nov 02 09:17:56 <danu> via my ADSL router
Nov 02 09:17:58 <jacekowski> danu: i mean just connecting phone in pc suite mode isn't going to do it
Nov 02 09:18:12 <jacekowski> hmm, so ok
Nov 02 09:18:16 <jacekowski> you have adsl router
Nov 02 09:18:26 <jacekowski> so how is n900 related
Nov 02 09:18:34 <jacekowski> i mean it's your adsl router/your pc problem
Nov 02 09:18:40 <danu> i guess so
Nov 02 09:19:45 <RobbieThe1st> danu: have you followed the wiki page?
Nov 02 09:19:57 <danu> nope
Nov 02 09:20:07 <danu> u mean usb networking wiki page ?
Nov 02 09:20:22 <RobbieThe1st> yea
Nov 02 09:20:27 <danu> i managed to get Internet working on N900 following that
Nov 02 09:20:38 <jacekowski> what are you doing?
Nov 02 09:21:44 <jacktheripper> jacekowski, is there *touch* input specifically, or it's all done using multiple mouse cursors on linux ?
Nov 02 09:22:05 <jacekowski> jacktheripper: there is no touch support on linux
Nov 02 09:22:33 <RobbieThe1st> webOS, however...
Nov 02 09:22:36 <jacekowski> jacktheripper: and multitouch is not there as well
Nov 02 09:22:46 <jacekowski> RobbieThe1st: that's vendor specific implementation
Nov 02 09:22:55 <jacekowski> using non standard sdl extensions
Nov 02 09:23:20 <RobbieThe1st> Do we have any non-standard sdl extensions on the N900?
Nov 02 09:23:26 <RobbieThe1st> if only for single-touch
Nov 02 09:23:35 <jacekowski> nope
Nov 02 09:23:38 <jacekowski> it's all done via mouse
Nov 02 09:23:51 <jacekowski> and on n900 we have X for display
Nov 02 09:23:55 <jacekowski> and sdl is working on top of that
Nov 02 09:24:35 <RobbieThe1st> Out of curiosity, is there a way to adjust the amount of pressure needed for a "click" to register?
Nov 02 09:24:50 <jacekowski> no
Nov 02 09:25:07 <jacekowski> it's just how resistive touchscreen works
Nov 02 09:25:25 <X-Fade> Well, that is not entirely correct.
Nov 02 09:25:34 <jacekowski> you have to push it for two resistive layers to touch
Nov 02 09:25:41 <X-Fade> Preasure is being measured.
Nov 02 09:25:46 <X-Fade> *Presure
Nov 02 09:25:48 <defragger>  button
Nov 02 09:25:48 <defragger> ups
Nov 02 09:25:49 <defragger> wrong window sorry
Nov 02 09:25:49 <danu> yay  now internet works both on N900 and PC !!!!
Nov 02 09:25:53 <RobbieThe1st> or, can you tell the -size- of the touched area?
Nov 02 09:25:54 <jacekowski> X-Fade: as far as i know it's only contact surface
Nov 02 09:26:15 <X-Fade> No, it has a lot of levels. They are available.
Nov 02 09:26:25 <jacktheripper> paint uses pressure sensitivity, try it
Nov 02 09:26:37 <jacekowski> but is it based on real pressure or just surface?
Nov 02 09:26:40 <danu> anybody had success with gmapcatcher ?
Nov 02 09:26:46 <RobbieThe1st> does it matter either way?
Nov 02 09:26:50 <jacekowski> yes
Nov 02 09:27:11 <jacekowski> it will behave differently with a stick and differently with a finger
Nov 02 09:27:11 <jacktheripper> if this http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/projects/mpx/ could be ported..
Nov 02 09:27:37 <RobbieThe1st> You should be able to get it to respond to a lighter touch by setting the size-threshold at least
Nov 02 09:27:58 <jacekowski> jacktheripper: there was something about something similiar being implemented in vanilia xorg
Nov 02 09:28:21 <jacekowski> jacktheripper: but i'm not sure if it ever got implemented fully
Nov 02 09:28:41 <jacekowski> anyways
Nov 02 09:28:44 <jacekowski> time to do some work
Nov 02 09:28:53 <RobbieThe1st> thing is, I have a screen protector and find it very handy to use a mechanical pencil lead to touch buttons(mainly on the Almost TI calculator)... but it's hard to get presses to register. They do, but it takes quite a bit of force
Nov 02 09:29:35 <RobbieThe1st> I recall the N770 having an adjustment for that - you could set the level(defaulted to '40')
Nov 02 09:31:11 <jacktheripper> ubuntu 10.10 actually does have multitouch support, I'll look into later
Nov 02 09:45:46 <SkyscraperN900> hi
Nov 02 10:25:34 <RobbieThe1st> Quick little question - Using busybox tools, what would be the best way to get the available bytes number from a specific line of df? I've already figured out that "df | grep ^/dev/mmcblk0p1" gets the correct line - What's the best way to separate it?
Nov 02 10:26:24 <RST38h> cut?
Nov 02 10:26:59 <RobbieThe1st> I messed with that, but ran into an issue with multiple tabs - cut doesn't like them
Nov 02 10:28:02 <RobbieThe1st> ideally, it'd be something like an advanced regular expression - [[:space:]]{1,} is perfect for selecting one or more tabs... But I don't know of any way to get back only selected chunks
Nov 02 10:28:31 <RST38h> awk?
Nov 02 10:28:41 <pupnik_> even simpler is the 'cut' command
Nov 02 10:28:50 <RobbieThe1st> alright, I'll look into it
Nov 02 10:29:27 <pupnik_> unix was designed for exactly such stuff
Nov 02 10:29:28 <sx0n> tr | cut
Nov 02 10:30:40 <RobbieThe1st> heh, yea
Nov 02 10:34:28 <RobbieThe1st> Perfect. Current solution: "busybox df | grep ^/dev/mmcblk0p1 | tr '\t' ' ' | cut -d ' ' -f 4" <- free space on MyDocs
Nov 02 10:35:00 <sx0n> charming
Nov 02 10:36:29 <RobbieThe1st> And this is why I'm never going back to Windows if I can help it
Nov 02 10:36:39 <sx0n> yep.
Nov 02 10:37:25 <sx0n> sed is also capable tool but little more challenging
Nov 02 10:40:46 <ajf_> how do I change the close button in the top right to a back button in a C/GTK/Hildon application? I can't see any relevant function in HildonWindow or the GTK additions documentation
Nov 02 11:05:27 <alterego> weird, camkeyd injects key presses instead of using the dbus call to get to the dashboard.
Nov 02 11:07:48 <agi> 1;3C
Nov 02 11:12:18 <alterego> ~seen Venemo
Nov 02 11:12:22 <infobot> venemo <~communi@netacc-gpn-4-61-231.pool.telenor.hu> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 15h 33m 16s ago, saying: 'hey Noobmonk3y'.
Nov 02 11:28:56 <PaulFertser> iksaif: hey, i do not get it. How do they plan to release the fix if it's only for the 1.1 branch? Do they plan to update qtmobility in the repos to 1.1 or what?
Nov 02 11:30:36 <PaulFertser> iksaif: i mean who's managing the official maemo repos (not extras)? Should he be notified an update is a must?
Nov 02 11:37:43 <jacekowski> they don't plan to
Nov 02 11:39:41 <X-Fade> Qtm is a separate meta package, so in theory it can be easily updated.
Nov 02 11:40:39 <PaulFertser> X-Fade: it would be rather nice. There's a critical error making some gps-using apps segfault on start.
Nov 02 11:40:57 <alterego> PaulFertser: what error?
Nov 02 11:41:02 <alterego> My app works fine that uses the GPS
Nov 02 11:41:30 <PaulFertser> jacekowski: "David Laing: I'll do what I can from my end to get the fix integrated as soon as possible." http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTMOBILITY-646
Nov 02 11:41:33 <alterego> Is it a known bug?
Nov 02 11:41:36 <PaulFertser> alterego: ^^ see this url.
Nov 02 11:41:40 <alterego> Thanks
Nov 02 11:42:04 <PaulFertser> The fix is already committed to the 1.1 branch.
Nov 02 11:42:16 <alterego> Oh, nasty
Nov 02 11:42:38 <alterego> We don't really have small updates for maemo
Nov 02 11:42:44 <alterego> Not even security patches ;)
Nov 02 11:43:12 <PaulFertser> alterego: who manages the repository (not extra?) then?
Nov 02 11:43:23 <alterego> nokia? :)
Nov 02 11:43:23 <PaulFertser> alterego: why can't he gradually update it when needed?
Nov 02 11:43:44 <alterego> Because they need to go through all that QA testing stuff :P
Nov 02 11:43:44 <X-Fade> PaulFertser: The SSU repos are managed by Nokia.
Nov 02 11:44:00 <alterego> And release new images onto tablets-dev
Nov 02 11:44:36 <alterego> This sounds like a job for MohammadAG51 and his community SSU ;)
Nov 02 11:44:42 <PaulFertser> X-Fade: lol, and that's called Maemo community :)
Nov 02 11:44:57 <mece> could I have an uname -a from a standard pr1.3 kernel plz?
Nov 02 11:44:58 <X-Fade> PaulFertser: No, the nokia ones.
Nov 02 11:45:03 <alterego> PaulFertser: no, Nokia firmware updates :P
Nov 02 11:45:17 <alterego> mece: Linux Nokia-N900 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Fri Aug 6 11:50:00 EEST 2010 armv7l unknown
Nov 02 11:45:29 <mece> alterego, thanks
Nov 02 11:45:45 <alterego> np
Nov 02 11:45:51 <mece> is this different from, say, titan's whatnot kernel?
Nov 02 11:45:52 <X-Fade> Anyway, qtm lives in the Nokia apps repo. Which can update without a firmware release.
Nov 02 11:46:07 <X-Fade> So that will make it a lot easier for it to be updated.
Nov 02 11:46:07 <alterego> mece: no idea, I think so
Nov 02 11:46:07 <psycho_oreos> mece, yes, the versioning is different
Nov 02 11:46:09 <PaulFertser> X-Fade: i'm sorry for being unclear again. What i implied was: "maemo community is weak and _still_ can't manage to convince nokia to do the right thing wrt repositories".
Nov 02 11:46:21 <mece> psycho_oreos: ok, thanks.
Nov 02 11:46:39 <mece> psycho_oreos, do you have that installed? Could you show what it says?
Nov 02 11:46:41 <alterego> PaulFertser: I think that's a bit harsh, have you personally tried to move Nokia to do something?
Nov 02 11:46:54 <X-Fade> PaulFertser: Do you have something constructive to add or are you just being a troll?
Nov 02 11:47:06 <PaulFertser> Just being a troll, and i'm stopping now.
Nov 02 11:47:10 <alterego> :)
Nov 02 11:47:39 <psycho_oreos> mece, I have it installed and have the versioning changed.. I think from memory, titan's kernel version would be something like 2.6.28.power-?? (where ?? equates to the version number installed)
Nov 02 11:49:55 <PaulFertser> alterego: in fact i think that if _all_ maemo community councils threatened to resign, it would make nokia listen. Nobody's tried that yet afaik. And i'm not making any personal attacks here while i'm being constantly bullied, so it doesn't seem like discussing this topic here can lead me anywhere.
Nov 02 11:50:26 <alterego> PaulFertser: I don't think Nokia would care if the council went on strike or resigned.
Nov 02 11:50:42 <alterego> And the community is a lot more than just the council, the council are our channel to Nokia.
Nov 02 11:51:02 <alterego> If you have a problem, then go to a council member and get the to raise it to Nokia
Nov 02 11:51:16 <gomiam> .
Nov 02 11:52:16 <PaulFertser> alterego: already did. PR1.2 privacy breach. The only council who cared resigned by now. That's all that happened. The majority of the community is unaware of the problem.
Nov 02 11:52:32 <alterego> Really?
Nov 02 11:52:36 <PaulFertser> afair
Nov 02 11:52:41 <alterego> I think a lot of peopel _area_ aware of that proble,
Nov 02 11:52:44 <alterego> ~problem
Nov 02 11:52:44 <infobot> [problem] http://i.imgur.com/VO1NP.jpg
Nov 02 11:53:10 <alterego> And we, the community, have a fix for that issue
Nov 02 11:53:24 <PaulFertser> alterego: rather a workaround.
Nov 02 11:53:30 <alterego> It's Nokia's policy to have that MyNokia crap, what did you expect to actually happen?
Nov 02 11:53:55 <mece> thanks psycho_oreos.
Nov 02 11:54:05 <alterego> Do you think N900 users should be treated differently to other Nokia customers?
Nov 02 11:54:15 <alterego> Personally, I'd settle for  them treating us the same ^.^
Nov 02 11:54:28 <psycho_oreos> mece, nw
Nov 02 11:54:35 <PaulFertser> alterego: after they discovered the error (no opt-out for some users) they should have published sources for cherry (so everybody could be sure about what info went to nokia) and release a really fixed version with a 100%-errorfree opt-out option.
Nov 02 11:55:05 <PaulFertser> Since they didn't and nobody resigned in the protest, well, that's the community choice to be treated like that.
Nov 02 11:55:07 <alterego> The opt out is give your phone back ..
Nov 02 11:55:22 <alterego> It says  this on the box.
Nov 02 11:55:24 <PaulFertser> Now i +q myself.
Nov 02 11:55:25 <phellarv> mece: About http://is.gd/gC3Ec - "You must be using the PR1.3 kernel and nothing else." - Does this mean that if I'm using Titans Kernel, I cannot use your guide?
Nov 02 11:55:28 <X-Fade> PaulFertser: What makes you think it was an error.
Nov 02 11:55:45 <mece> phellarv, well, might be.
Nov 02 11:56:03 <mece> phellarv, if you don't mind reflashing, feel free to try it ;)
Nov 02 11:56:07 <alterego> It isn't an error, we may not like it, but it's intentional and it's Nokia policy.
Nov 02 11:56:13 <phellarv> mece: I take that answere as a challenge ;-P
Nov 02 11:56:15 <X-Fade> PaulFertser: It is written on the box: Registration via SMS required.
Nov 02 11:56:36 <X-Fade> PaulFertser: If you don't like that, don't buy it in the first place?
Nov 02 11:57:08 <alterego> I think, in some ways, we should think ourselves lucky, the fact our system is so open we can hack it to not send the sms
Nov 02 11:57:13 <Sargun_Screen> dude
Nov 02 11:57:24 <alterego> How do you think all those Symbian useres feel? They can't do sch*t :P
Nov 02 11:57:31 <Myrtti> resigned? I thought their term just came to a predetermined end.
Nov 02 11:57:35 <mece> phellarv, Stskeeps says he's fairly certain it wont work. I look forward to your test results :D
Nov 02 11:57:36 <PaulFertser> X-Fade: i do not think that's accurate. For mynokia services registration is required. But it's not said anywhere that using mynokia is required for using the phone. I've carefully read the related bugreport and saw some photos of package etc.
Nov 02 11:57:55 <alterego> (my photos) :D
Nov 02 11:58:10 <PaulFertser> alterego: Freerunner _is_ an open system. What you've get there is loosy compromise.
Nov 02 11:58:32 <PaulFertser> s/there/here with n900/
Nov 02 11:58:32 <infobot> PaulFertser meant: alterego: Freerunner _is_ an open system. What you've get here with n900 is loosy compromise.
Nov 02 11:59:21 <Sargun_Screen> n900 vs. freerunner
Nov 02 11:59:27 * alterego sighs
Nov 02 11:59:45 <Myrtti> you people need more cheesecake
Nov 02 11:59:55 <PaulFertser> And tofu
Nov 02 11:59:56 <alterego> Why is it, as soon as you mention the word open, people assume you mean every last nook and cranny.
Nov 02 12:00:07 <tybollt> Myrtti: sssssh you
Nov 02 12:00:11 <alterego> We're all well aware of "how" open maemo is on the N900.
Nov 02 12:00:13 * tybollt is drooling now
Nov 02 12:00:19 <tybollt> aaaaagh cheeeeeeeescake
Nov 02 12:00:30 <alterego> And imo Freerunner is no competition.
Nov 02 12:00:34 <alterego> That is why I'm here.
Nov 02 12:00:37 <Myrtti> tybollt: guess am I, I've had a cup of lowsy coffee and bilberry soup
Nov 02 12:00:38 <Stskeeps> i vote we rename 'open' as interpreted by the gnubies to 'goatse'
Nov 02 12:00:43 <Stskeeps> which explains the issue more clearly
Nov 02 12:00:51 <alterego> tybollt: mmm :) Give me some :D
Nov 02 12:00:57 <alterego> Stskeeps: agreed :D
Nov 02 12:01:33 <PaulFertser> /part ragequit
Nov 02 12:01:53 <alterego> Chill out! :P
Nov 02 12:01:55 <tybollt>  /part EM0QUIT (myrtti will like that one :)
Nov 02 12:01:57 <Sargun_Screen> Myrtti: dude, give me cheesecake.
Nov 02 12:01:58 <andax> how fast is the micro sd reader? makes it a difference to use class 4 micro sd cards instead of class 3 cards?
Nov 02 12:02:17 <Sargun_Screen> N900 > Freerunner IMHO
Nov 02 12:02:26 <Sargun_Screen> PaulFertser: don't you remember me :-P
Nov 02 12:02:34 <Myrtti> Sargun_Screen: who?
Nov 02 12:02:35 <PaulFertser> Sargun_Screen: hi dude, sure i do.
Nov 02 12:02:49 <Sargun_Screen> Myrtti: You said I could have more cheesecake.
Nov 02 12:02:51 <Sargun_Screen> I want some
Nov 02 12:03:59 <DocScrutinizer> X-Fade: I'd be rather careful to suggest such nonsense like "don't buy, it's mandatory, it stand on the box". It might easily turn to the worse *for Nokia*. This is not a oopsie then, that's easily considered fraud, and competitors might sue Nokia, as well as customers. Also the writing on the box is all but clear in that respect - for me it implies I need SMS reg for *OVI*
Nov 02 12:04:35 <alterego> IT also said "This is an Ovi device"
Nov 02 12:04:37 <X-Fade> DocScrutinizer: It says "This is an OVI device" before it.
Nov 02 12:04:45 <Myrtti> oh, it's always confusing when people refer to me as dude
Nov 02 12:04:55 <X-Fade> You also need activate an iphone, same difference.
Nov 02 12:05:09 <alterego> Sure, and google control all of your data on Android, so we're fine :P
Nov 02 12:05:14 <X-Fade> I personally don't like it, but it is not new.
Nov 02 12:05:22 <DocScrutinizer> X-Fade: (ovi device) exactly
Nov 02 12:05:22 <alterego> I don't care :D
Nov 02 12:06:06 <alterego> Well, it's slightly annoying the amount of times I reflash my device, but the flag is stored on the emmc and I don't flash that as often, so I guess it's okay .
Nov 02 12:07:23 <PaulFertser> lol, it's "slightly" annoying they're trying to rape you but since you are wearing some "decent enough" protection you do not care, what an attitude.
Nov 02 12:07:39 <DocScrutinizer> X-Fade: it also sais somewhere "this is a bluetooth device" (OWTTE) - doesn't mean you can't use the phone without BT
Nov 02 12:07:44 <X-Fade> Your EU money at work: http://blog.symbian.org/2010/11/01/euromillions-for-the-symbian-ecosystem-e22m-committed-to-next-generation-technologies-for-symbian/
Nov 02 12:08:41 <RST38h> X-Fade: Ahhahahahaha
Nov 02 12:09:34 * RST38h does not understand where "google rapes you" mentality is coming from
Nov 02 12:11:38 <DocScrutinizer> X-Fade: see, I get a N900 *because* I don't want google to store my contacts, and I checked all available info about m5 before ordering a N900. It's fraud on Nokia's side to implement such a mandatory dependency only after I bought the device and declare this a normal thing without opt-out
Nov 02 12:11:56 <PaulFertser> Many BY citizens do not understand why some people feel too constrained in their country too. Probably that's an ex-USSR mentality of not caring about being constrained. :|
Nov 02 12:12:23 <X-Fade> DocScrutinizer: You know that my law you are allowed to return your device within x days, right ;)
Nov 02 12:12:29 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer:  what's m5?
Nov 02 12:12:53 <DocScrutinizer> X-Fade: haha, x being what? period from 1.0->1.2??
Nov 02 12:13:26 <DocScrutinizer> maemo 5 aka fremantle
Nov 02 12:13:43 <RST38h> Paul: Google is not BY
Nov 02 12:13:53 <RST38h> Paul: Apples are not oranges.
Nov 02 12:14:04 <PaulFertser> RST38h: i used an anology to illustrate my idea.
Nov 02 12:14:21 <PaulFertser> I know analogy is not proof, everybody does in fact.
Nov 02 12:14:24 <RST38h> Paul: Analogy between two unrelated unsmilar entities is not an analogy
Nov 02 12:14:32 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: oh, of course. anyway, was something evil hapenning, or was that hypothetical?
Nov 02 12:15:02 <DocScrutinizer> BCMM: check wiki about compulsory registration to mynokia
Nov 02 12:15:09 <BCMM> RST38h: you see, the n900 is a bit like a car
Nov 02 12:15:13 <DocScrutinizer> alias rotten cherry
Nov 02 12:15:18 <Shapeshifter> uh, wtf... is it impossible to edit the imap server address for an account in modest? do I really have to delete the account? what about the mails..... o_o
Nov 02 12:15:30 <PaulFertser> RST38h: i find those entities similar in some respect, you do not, here we just disagree. I'm just talking about people caring about their freedom.
Nov 02 12:15:38 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: i though that just sms spammed you occasionally?
Nov 02 12:15:51 <DocScrutinizer> that's just enough
Nov 02 12:17:02 <RST38h> Paul: Except that I am talking about reality and you seem to be talking to your perosnal demons :)
Nov 02 12:17:21 <PaulFertser> RST38h: ok
Nov 02 12:17:24 <RST38h> Because in reality, you 1) have a choice of not using Android 2) have a choice of not using Android apps
Nov 02 12:17:51 <DocScrutinizer> see, NOBODY is spamming me with SMS, and if Nokia thinks they may start it and wake me at 4'o clock in the night by sending me spam SMS while usually every SMS inbound is a RED ALERT for me - figure what I'm feeling to do to Nokia
Nov 02 12:17:52 <RST38h> In fact, you can SSH from an Android phone to a remote server of your liking, or use a third-party web-based interface to store addresses and send emails
Nov 02 12:18:04 <PaulFertser> RST38h: soviet citizens had a choice of defending their freedom and going to jail, or not defending and not going.
Nov 02 12:18:15 <BCMM> anyway, is it possible to adjust file associations for the file manager and email client and so on? i want PDF email attachements to open in Evince.
Nov 02 12:18:22 <Myrtti> PaulFertser: oh for gods sake
Nov 02 12:18:26 <RST38h> Paul: Right. So, if you do not use an Android phone, do you go to jail?
Nov 02 12:18:54 <Myrtti> PaulFertser: I know several people who don't use Android or any other Google service other than the search, don't have a google account, and they're doing just fine
Nov 02 12:18:56 <RST38h> Paul: Care to cite the corresponding article of the criminal code, for the country of your liking?
Nov 02 12:19:10 <Shapeshifter> what is all this commotion about. ..
Nov 02 12:19:26 <RST38h> Shapeshifter: Google is evil and assrapes you using green robots
Nov 02 12:19:27 <Shapeshifter> also, imap settings, how do I change them
Nov 02 12:19:29 <BCMM> Shapeshifter: bad analogies, i think
Nov 02 12:19:29 <PaulFertser> RST38h: my point is that Nokia can actually be pushed to be less evil but community doesn't care enough about that.
Nov 02 12:19:34 <Shapeshifter> aww
Nov 02 12:19:46 <RST38h> Paul: Nokia cannot be "pushed" to be anything
Nov 02 12:20:00 <BCMM> they seem to think google is like stalin, whereas in actual fact nokia is like a car
Nov 02 12:20:15 <RST38h> Paul: It is a large corporate entity based in Finland, country where you canot even go without a vis
Nov 02 12:20:15 <Myrtti> *snerk*
Nov 02 12:20:22 <Myrtti> BCMM: you have just won the Internets
Nov 02 12:20:37 <RST38h> Paul: It does not care about you. It does not have to. It is the Phone COmpany.
Nov 02 12:21:19 <zutesmog> In fact no public company cares about "any you"  only share holders.
Nov 02 12:21:37 <BCMM> so are file associations harcoded in the ui, or stored in gconf, or what?
Nov 02 12:21:38 <Myrtti> zutesmog: they care about the average consumer
Nov 02 12:21:56 <Myrtti> zutesmog: the problem is that N900 and Maemo 5 aren't average products
Nov 02 12:22:01 <zutesmog> No they don't, only as far as they can influence them to buy their product
Nov 02 12:22:12 <Myrtti> zutesmog: indeed
Nov 02 12:22:15 <Shapeshifter> you can all be happy that google is so rich that they don't yet have to be evil at all.
Nov 02 12:22:17 <RST38h> correct
Nov 02 12:22:50 <Shapeshifter> unlike apple
Nov 02 12:22:54 <BCMM> publicly-traded companies aren't evil as such. they are just legally oblidged to be entirely amoral
Nov 02 12:23:35 <zutesmog> I worked for sun for years and it really tried to do the right thing, engineering cared about products and their customers, but the market insisted that they do things that wheren't in the employees or customers best interests.
Nov 02 12:23:39 <Gorroth> the good ones care enough not only to get you to buy their product, but to get you liking that product and talkinag about it
Nov 02 12:23:41 <RST38h> BCMM: A company is not a human being, so it does not have to abide by rules of ethics
Nov 02 12:23:55 <BCMM> RST38h: exactly
Nov 02 12:23:56 <Shapeshifter> no. if they produce enough revenue, they can still follow any moral code. they're not pressured as much as a company that doesn't swim in money
Nov 02 12:23:58 <RST38h> Same goes for states, btw. Too bad some people do not understand that.
Nov 02 12:24:44 <BCMM> RST38h: and a publicly-traded company does not have a human or small group of humans in control
Nov 02 12:24:56 <Gorroth> RST38h: the courts might disagree with them being a person in most ways.  they get most of the benefits and none of the risk of being a human
Nov 02 12:24:57 <BCMM> which is why they "don't care"
Nov 02 12:24:58 <RST38h> So, the rule of thumb is "don't stand where the teeth are, go where it shits golden bricks"
Nov 02 12:24:59 <zutesmog> Sun had some pretty up their moral statements in its company values (for employees etc.)  But the reality of the market meant other things happened.
Nov 02 12:25:11 <bigbrovar> has anyway been able to get google contact sync to work on the n900 using mail for exchange?
Nov 02 12:25:33 <RST38h> Gorroth: Yet, they do not have the same liabilities as people
Nov 02 12:25:50 <RST38h> Besides, Law != Ethics
Nov 02 12:26:20 <BCMM> a private company with a decent leader and mindset can actually value customers satisfaction for its own sake (as well as for financial reasons)
Nov 02 12:26:43 <RST38h> but does not have to
Nov 02 12:26:52 <BCMM> law != ethics is missed a lot lately
Nov 02 12:27:12 <BCMM> see the parliamentary expenses scandal in the UK lately
Nov 02 12:27:39 <BCMM> the main excuse was "it wasn't illegal"
Nov 02 12:29:30 <Shapeshifter> bah
Nov 02 12:29:46 <Shapeshifter> I need to get rid of modest
Nov 02 12:29:53 <Shapeshifter> what a piece of crap
Nov 02 12:30:12 <Shapeshifter> but how....
Nov 02 12:30:24 <RST38h> dpkg -r ?
Nov 02 12:31:03 <Shapeshifter> alternative? one that runs in the background and fetches mail every x minutes
Nov 02 12:31:13 <DocScrutinizer> X-Fade: ( return your device within x days ) do you *really* suggest *all* users who feel assraped by nokia cherry should return their maybe 9 months old devices for full refund? Like the dudue who did that for Sony PS when they disabled the linux?
Nov 02 12:32:14 <Shapeshifter> cherry? the sms?
Nov 02 12:32:19 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Nov 02 12:32:41 <DocScrutinizer> http://wiki.maemo.org/PR1.2_compulsory_My_Nokia_subscription
Nov 02 12:33:10 <Shapeshifter> while I find it wrong that they do that it's kinda silly to feel assraped because of a single sms.
Nov 02 12:33:26 <RST38h> It is the PRINCIPLE!
Nov 02 12:34:23 <Myrtti> more cheesecake
Nov 02 12:34:37 <jacekowski> DocScrutinizer: how is the wiki page going?
Nov 02 12:35:06 <DocScrutinizer> Shapeshifter: it's NOT a single SMS. It's a privacy breach as they collect unknown amount of my private data, and they think they are entitled to spam me with SMS
Nov 02 12:35:28 <jacekowski> DocScrutinizer: well it fails anyway
Nov 02 12:35:42 <jacekowski> btw. is that "feature" removed in 1.3?
Nov 02 12:35:54 <jacekowski> or is it just hidden better
Nov 02 12:36:07 <DocScrutinizer> NO, it's NOT!
Nov 02 12:36:17 <DocScrutinizer> for all I know
Nov 02 12:37:14 <DocScrutinizer> jacekowski: that's the whole point - Nokia didn't even feel like fixing that shit in PR1.3
Nov 02 12:37:20 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer: they're asses allright. but it's not like they stole your soul
Nov 02 12:37:40 <DocScrutinizer> Shapeshifter: you're sure?
Nov 02 12:40:10 <Shapeshifter> I don't even know.... in the settings on my device, mynokia only has the unsubscribe button clickable. does this mean I'm subscribed? I don't receive any sms' from nokia....
Nov 02 12:40:54 <Shapeshifter> lol but the terms and conditions are ridiculous
Nov 02 12:41:11 <DocScrutinizer> Shapeshifter: you walk along the street, I call "STOP, FREEZE" at you, grab you, pull out your purse and take 50ct. Then I put back your purse to your pocket, laugh at you and tell "no move on". You'd shrug and say "oh well it's only 50ct"?
Nov 02 12:41:57 <andax> thanks for the link DocScrutinizer :)
Nov 02 12:42:36 <DocScrutinizer> Shapeshifter: the "unsubscribe" is a "hey dude, if you think what I've done doesn't please you, then give me another 50 ct and *I* will forget I've done it"
Nov 02 12:43:03 * Myrtti hands out pop corn
Nov 02 12:43:07 <BCMM> aren't there some horrible carriers who charge nasty amounts of money if you send texts with no texting plan?
Nov 02 12:43:15 <DocScrutinizer> Shapeshifter: "unsubscribe" sends another SMS to Nokia every time you click it :-P
Nov 02 12:43:55 <Shapeshifter> lol
Nov 02 12:44:22 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer: so what are you trying to do now
Nov 02 12:44:28 <DocScrutinizer> BCMM: do you think Nokia cares?
Nov 02 12:45:34 <DocScrutinizer> Shapeshifter: I tried to start a "send Nokia your cherries" campaign last weekend, but I realized I don't have any channels to do such thing that needs high publicity
Nov 02 12:47:48 <andax> Shapeshifter: it is reason enough to boycott nokia, especially because no one cares when the SMS suck like a mosquito and cant be blocked even not by the phone service provider.
Nov 02 12:47:53 <DocScrutinizer> BCMM: the dude picking your purse won't give spare coins if you got no 50ct in exact amount
Nov 02 12:50:27 <DocScrutinizer> I'm persobally temped to click on unsubscribe 200 times, to rise the damage value above a marginality threshold, *then* sue Nokia for recompensating me for the 40EUR
Nov 02 12:50:29 <andax> this is like selling servers, nit mentioning you have been giving root acccess to a teenage cap gang
Nov 02 12:50:47 <andax> nit -> not
Nov 02 12:51:32 <frals> DocScrutinizer: is it sending an sms each time you press unsubscribe?
Nov 02 12:52:17 <DocScrutinizer> frals: AIUI yes
Nov 02 12:53:02 <roadi> i bricked my n900 with updating from pr 1.2 to 1.3 :(
Nov 02 12:53:12 <DocScrutinizer> it sends an SMS to unsubscribe, and it doesn't know about subscription state. So what else could it do than 1 SMS / click?
Nov 02 12:53:16 <roadi> i did the dist-upgrade in the terminal-session
Nov 02 12:53:34 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer: so what does the campaign do, there's nothing on it on the wiki page
Nov 02 12:53:57 <X-Fade> roadi: Congrats :)
Nov 02 12:54:17 <DocScrutinizer> Shapeshifter: I thought of hundereds of users sending all kinds of (preferably rotten) cherry products to Nokia
Nov 02 12:54:19 <X-Fade> roadi: You can fix your device by flashing the PR1.3 image though. So it is not really bricked.
Nov 02 12:55:00 <DocScrutinizer> roadi: you should have done /topc here
Nov 02 12:55:09 <DocScrutinizer> topic even
Nov 02 12:55:25 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer: cute. I'm in. Why not put it on the maemo news page and possibly other forums
Nov 02 12:55:25 <pupnik_> http://www.tomps.com/shop/polymorph-thermoplastic-250g-p-208.html   "Remake Injection Moulded Parts"
Nov 02 12:55:27 <roadi> X-Fade: is there an known way to debrick wothout flashing?
Nov 02 12:55:46 <DocScrutinizer> roadi: not treally
Nov 02 12:55:57 <X-Fade> roadi: No, you shouldn't have done that.
Nov 02 12:56:07 <X-Fade> roadi: Where did you read to do that?
Nov 02 12:56:42 <DocScrutinizer> /topic -> ... PR1.3 being released slowly but surely. Be patient. DO NOT apt-get -dist-upgrade! See ~pr1.3
Nov 02 12:57:49 <roadi> DocScrutinizer: irssi and the default screen resolution does not show the full (and important part) text
Nov 02 12:57:53 <roadi> damn
Nov 02 12:57:56 <roadi> but okay - my fault.
Nov 02 12:58:39 <roadi> or is there a way for booting from a sd card and copying all important files?
Nov 02 12:58:39 <Shapeshifter> roadi: /topic
Nov 02 12:59:18 <Shapeshifter> so, is there a way of copying all the mails from the sent folder (local) to somewhere else?
Nov 02 12:59:22 <roadi> Shapeshifter: "Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | http://maemo.nokia.com/ | Maemo Com" <- i know the /topic command but hey i am not reading 24/7 every topic change. :(
Nov 02 13:03:49 <DocScrutinizer> roadi: anyway, remove your SIM before flashing PR1.3, and study http://wiki.maemo.org/PR1.2_compulsory_My_Nokia_subscription - if you're concerned about your privacy and money
Nov 02 13:04:23 <E0x> morning
Nov 02 13:05:30 <andax> Shapeshifter: maybe roadi should have asked: "is in maemo an equivalent to PC BIOS accessable to choose a temporary boot device (i.e. SD card)without being a autochthon maemo hacker?"
Nov 02 13:08:48 <DocScrutinizer> andax: answer is: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Using_Rescue_Initrd
Nov 02 13:09:00 <roadi> andax: right. btw i dont wanna solder any jtag. ;)
Nov 02 13:09:02 <roadi> thx
Nov 02 13:09:30 <DocScrutinizer> but that still won't restore your fubar rootfs to a sane state
Nov 02 13:14:36 <andax> DocScrutinizer: sounds like a huge amount of work... i remember the n900 was sold as _linux_ phone but as we go along with maemo there is a plenty of things completely different to linux as we knew it
Nov 02 13:15:41 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, I know quite a number of sometimes really screwed linux flavours
Nov 02 13:16:07 <DocScrutinizer> maemo not being one of the weirdest
Nov 02 13:18:22 <andax> DocScrutinizer: full ack
Nov 02 13:18:50 <jaska> a weirder linux flavor is available on android phones :)
Nov 02 13:19:14 <aquatix> myeah, an android phone isn't really a linux device
Nov 02 13:19:15 <DocScrutinizer> OpenEmbedded for example seems has adopted the notion there's no use in a proper user account on an "embedded" device, so /home/root is the only $HOME available (sic!)
Nov 02 13:19:20 <MohammadAG51> /system/etc, ha
Nov 02 13:19:40 <aquatix> DocScrutinizer: :/
Nov 02 13:19:53 <aquatix> DocScrutinizer: does it have X?
Nov 02 13:19:57 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Nov 02 13:19:58 <andax> is android really weirder? i dont know, i only had a few minutes on a android so far
Nov 02 13:20:08 * aquatix loves android btw
Nov 02 13:20:18 <aquatix> but you shouldn't think about it as a linux device
Nov 02 13:20:27 <aquatix> linux is only there in the underpinnings
Nov 02 13:20:29 <nidO> well its wierder in that its not strictly "a linux device"
Nov 02 13:20:37 <nidO> its just a nix kernel running the java system
Nov 02 13:20:44 <aquatix> java-ish
Nov 02 13:21:08 <aquatix> which is less jucky then it sounds :P
Nov 02 13:22:14 <DocScrutinizer> adridiotisms like wakelocks are more bothering me than java'ish userland apps
Nov 02 13:23:41 <aquatix> heh, yeah
Nov 02 13:23:47 <andax> well, the term "linux" usually included GNU. Maybe in debian it was more clearly defined as GNU/linux instead. My preferred definition of linux was the whole systen and not only the kernel. GNU/linux is somewhat unspellable anyway
Nov 02 13:24:31 <aquatix> it's GNU/Linux anyway
Nov 02 13:24:37 <aquatix> :P
Nov 02 13:24:47 <DocScrutinizer> prepare to receive private spanking of RMS :-P
Nov 02 13:24:54 <madduck> ~flashing
Nov 02 13:24:54 <infobot> from memory, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Nov 02 13:25:07 <aquatix> andax: strictly, things like gnome aren't linux-only
Nov 02 13:25:27 <aquatix> GNU/Linux (or just linux) is really just the kernel
Nov 02 13:25:41 <andax> yeah, gnome is on opensolaris as well, for example
Nov 02 13:25:47 <DocScrutinizer> nope, GNU is the userland mainly
Nov 02 13:26:00 <DocScrutinizer> coreutils-gnu etc
Nov 02 13:26:01 <aquatix> andax: yeah, used it on regular Solaris in 2000 already, for example
Nov 02 13:26:24 <Shapeshifter> ._. modest is so fucking broken
Nov 02 13:26:37 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer: I'm much more concerned about shitty modest than cherry
Nov 02 13:27:29 <Shapeshifter> now I have two inboxes
Nov 02 13:27:56 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, I couldn't care less about modest. I'm not doing huge mailing tasks on N900, I got webmailers for everything not liftable via modest, and I'm free to patch modest and also to install alternatives like claws
Nov 02 13:29:03 <aquatix> is claws still being updated for maemo?
Nov 02 13:29:11 * aquatix still has 3.7.1 on his n810
Nov 02 13:29:15 <aquatix> which is oldish
Nov 02 13:29:53 <DocScrutinizer> I can't blame Nokia for shipping apps that are crappy but free. I'm highly concerned and upset if Nokia goes rogue though
Nov 02 13:30:39 <crashanddie> there is no f'ing GNU/Linux.
Nov 02 13:30:44 <Shapeshifter> the apps aren't exactly 'free'. it's not like you're paying for the hardware only
Nov 02 13:31:00 <Shapeshifter> free as in freedom, maybe
Nov 02 13:31:00 <crashanddie> Only Linux, which happens to be GPL.
Nov 02 13:31:02 <tybollt> crashie: ? do elaborate
Nov 02 13:31:21 <tybollt> crashanddie: Tell that to toe-cheese Stallman
Nov 02 13:31:22 <crashanddie> but there is nothing of GNU that is linked to Linux per se.
Nov 02 13:31:24 <Shapeshifter> crashanddie: old discussion, but GNU/Linux usually refers to linux kernel + gnu toolset iirc.
Nov 02 13:31:37 <crashanddie> Shapeshifter, aye, which in the case of maemo, isn't the case at all
Nov 02 13:31:42 <Shapeshifter> indeed
Nov 02 13:31:46 <crashanddie> It ships with busybox, which isn't GNU AFAIR
Nov 02 13:31:47 <aquatix> anyone ported GNU/Hurd to n900?
Nov 02 13:32:07 <aquatix> (speaking of truly GNU kernels)
Nov 02 13:32:23 <DocScrutinizer> muhahaha
Nov 02 13:33:01 <madduck> is the flasher app not available as amd64?
Nov 02 13:33:13 <DocScrutinizer> nope, afaik
Nov 02 13:33:33 <madduck> wtf nokia?
Nov 02 13:33:56 <andax> i believe gnu hurd kernel is a urban legend at all :)
Nov 02 13:33:58 <DocScrutinizer> there are instructions on ~flashing how to run the 32bit flasher on a 64bit system
Nov 02 13:34:23 <tybollt> orly?
Nov 02 13:34:35 <tybollt> that would've helped me bout three months ago
Nov 02 13:34:36 <DocScrutinizer> not?
Nov 02 13:34:41 * tybollt travels back in time
Nov 02 13:34:57 <tybollt> DocScrutinizer: just whining they weren't there previously ;)
Nov 02 13:38:03 <alterego> Just install ia32 libs
Nov 02 13:38:12 <DocScrutinizer> :nod:
Nov 02 13:41:59 <Shapeshifter> bah
Nov 02 13:42:45 <Shapeshifter> I don't understand any of modest' code
Nov 02 13:43:30 <Shapeshifter> there's so many files. How should one know which does what
Nov 02 13:54:53 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, that's the Nokia way of "FOSS" (though not invented by them). Just dump enough random undocumented uncommented source on community so nobody will ever dare to touch it :-P It seems this method originally been invented by US lawyers - "You forced us to disclose the files. So here you go, down in the street there are 3 vans full with paper, please unload rapidly!"
Nov 02 13:56:15 <flux> so you believe they have internal documentation that's better than provided?
Nov 02 13:56:16 <Shapeshifter> well, the modest source is actually commented pretty well. Almost prefectly. But I just fail at C or reading 100 C files and knowing what does what
Nov 02 13:57:30 <Shapeshifter> in the end, you'd have to spend too much time trying to figure out the architechture, while I bet the dude who wrote this would probably need to spend one hour max. to make the sent mails go to the sent mails IMAP folder instead of only having local copies...
Nov 02 13:58:10 <DocScrutinizer> flux: ^^^ this is your answer :-D
Nov 02 13:59:11 <Shapeshifter> why don't they just do it, it's so fucking obvious
Nov 02 13:59:20 <Shapeshifter> what's the point of IMAP without that
Nov 02 13:59:34 <X-Fade> Shapeshifter: I guess you could ask pvanhoof for pointers, as he worked on it in the early days at least.
Nov 02 14:00:50 <flux> docscrutinizer, so, in other words, they are not doing extra effort so that others can easier time diving in..
Nov 02 14:01:01 <flux> +have
Nov 02 14:01:08 <andax> At least the unix man command could link to a internet ressource instead of showing "nothing", like it is done in puppy linux
Nov 02 14:01:16 <DocScrutinizer> flux: exactly
Nov 02 14:01:35 <flux> andax, how does puppy linux do it?
Nov 02 14:01:49 <DocScrutinizer> andax: ??
Nov 02 14:01:56 <madduck> function man() { echo http://manpages.net/$1;; }
Nov 02 14:01:59 <DocScrutinizer> there's man-db-n900 pkg
Nov 02 14:02:02 <mgedmin> there were talks about ubuntu doing something like this
Nov 02 14:02:06 <mgedmin> there's a dman script out there
Nov 02 14:02:18 <mgedmin> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/dman
Nov 02 14:02:23 <DocScrutinizer> madduck: I suggested this ~9 months ago :-)
Nov 02 14:02:27 <pvanhoof> Shapeshifter, modest's imap code is implemented in tinymail
Nov 02 14:02:29 <flux> mgedmin, well, that's not the same user experience as 'man man' gives ;)
Nov 02 14:02:31 <pvanhoof> Shapeshifter, tinymail.org
Nov 02 14:02:38 <madduck> DocScrutinizer: sorry, but i applied for the patent. ;)
Nov 02 14:02:49 <DocScrutinizer> take it :-D
Nov 02 14:03:04 <flux> (hmph, I meant madduck)
Nov 02 14:03:26 <DocScrutinizer> I consider the approach highly useless anyway, esp for things like "man ifconfig" etc X-P
Nov 02 14:03:26 <mgedmin> for the record, dman utterly fails to work for me -- and I use ubuntu
Nov 02 14:03:45 <mgedmin> DocScrutinizer++
Nov 02 14:04:05 <mgedmin> but a networked fallback for random package you haven't installed would be nifty
Nov 02 14:04:17 <DocScrutinizer> ack
Nov 02 14:04:26 <mgedmin> speaking of which, are dict's online servers down or what?
Nov 02 14:06:53 <andax> DocScrutinizer: i installed that package but seems very incomplete. I am also a bit confused which terminal program can run which program. The man script from puppy linux is maintained by barry kauler himself
Nov 02 14:07:18 <DocScrutinizer> madduck: btw my suggestion was way smarter, substituting "echo " by "dbus-send bla blub..." to launch the browser with correct page
Nov 02 14:08:18 <DocScrutinizer> madduck: you're free to augment your pattent application :-)
Nov 02 14:09:26 <Shapeshifter> pvanhoof: thanks
Nov 02 14:10:19 <madduck> DocScrutinizer: my browser is not dbus aware and hopefully will never be. your method is flawed. ;)
Nov 02 14:12:10 <andax> the somewhat "layered" filesystem hierarchy standard of maemo still makes me nuts
Nov 02 14:13:33 <Shapeshifter> dbus? ._
Nov 02 14:13:50 <Shapeshifter> how about xdg-open
Nov 02 14:14:02 <madduck> how about not assuming X?
Nov 02 14:14:36 <Khertan_> Hello all !
Nov 02 14:14:42 <Shapeshifter> madduck: point taken
Nov 02 14:14:50 <panattan> Kaadlajk hi
Nov 02 14:16:47 <ShadowJK> whoah, the eastmaze battery actually measures as 1320-1350 with bq27200
Nov 02 14:16:53 <ShadowJK> (claimed 1500)
Nov 02 14:17:03 * ShadowJK wasn't expecting that much :D
Nov 02 14:17:08 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
Nov 02 14:21:15 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: seems to get increasingly difficult for copycats to get cheap reduced-capacity cells. The original ones are way cheaper just for the mere volume built. So they don't go for reduced size but instead for reduced quality. Like cleanroom been contaminated, one day's production sold for pennies with the warning "might catch fire or explode, due to pierced separator" XP
Nov 02 14:24:00 <DocScrutinizer> also it seems rather common in far east to run "dark shifts" and produce any quantity of crappy untested stuff to sell to gray market without knowledge of the company
Nov 02 14:24:04 <wazd> Hello everyone
Nov 02 14:25:04 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: see bunnie's report about SD cards
Nov 02 14:26:16 <andax> . o O ( also exploding SD cards? oh god... )
Nov 02 14:26:24 <DocScrutinizer> lol
Nov 02 14:27:13 <DocScrutinizer> hi wazd
Nov 02 14:27:38 <wazd> DocScrutinizer: o/
Nov 02 14:28:19 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, well the contaminated stuff is usually lower capacity too :)
Nov 02 14:28:35 <DocScrutinizer> not necessarily aiui
Nov 02 14:29:16 <Shapeshifter> pvanhoof: so apparently, the tinymail queue will send mails. It needs to know the "sendbox" TnyFolder to copy the sent mail to, and that is implemented amongst others by TnyCamelIMAPFolder so I guess it should be simple to have the sent mails saved on the imap folder instead the local one. However, I don't understand how modest determines the folder. The function it uses (in modest-tny-send-queue.c) is this: http://pastie.org/1266696 ...
Nov 02 14:29:22 <Shapeshifter> ... but I don't get what this is about, I mean, that means that the queue has a 'sentbox' and I'm looking into the code but there's nothing in modest-tny-account.c or modest-mail-operation.c or anything. Do you remember where the sentbox folder gets set?
Nov 02 14:31:21 <DocScrutinizer> Shapeshifter: screw IMAP - it's braindead :-P
Nov 02 14:31:33 <Shapeshifter> it is?
Nov 02 14:31:34 <madduck> yet there is nothing better
Nov 02 14:31:45 <mgedmin> ssh ;)
Nov 02 14:31:56 <madduck> mgedmin: no offline capability
Nov 02 14:32:07 <madduck> hard to share mailboxes
Nov 02 14:32:30 <pvanhoof> Shapeshifter, , so in modest there's a api that returns the TnyFolder that will be the sent folder
Nov 02 14:32:54 <pvanhoof> Shapeshifter, that api you have to replace with an implementation that returns a TnyFolder that points to a folder in your IMAP account
Nov 02 14:32:57 <DocScrutinizer> even rsync seems saner approach to me than IMAP
Nov 02 14:32:58 <mgedmin> someone once said it's easier to implement universal Internet connectivity than solve the sync problem
Nov 02 14:33:10 * mgedmin uses offlineimap, for the record
Nov 02 14:33:16 <madduck> same
Nov 02 14:33:32 <pvanhoof> Shapeshifter, that's it. the rest is abstract
Nov 02 14:33:36 <pvanhoof> Shapeshifter, but ask the modest developers; jdapena and sergio villar (on #tinymail on GimpNET and #modest on this IRC server)
Nov 02 14:33:42 <Shapeshifter> pvanhoof: okay thanks
Nov 02 14:33:49 <pvanhoof> Shapeshifter, or ask on modest's or tinymail's mailinglist
Nov 02 14:33:51 <panattan> hi guys, is the qwerty backlight controlled by the light sensor? Coz sometime I notice that the keyboard is off :|
Nov 02 14:33:52 <Turski> DocScrutinizer: rsync sounds like a good idea for mail
Nov 02 14:34:04 <Shapeshifter> panattan: yes it is.
Nov 02 14:34:16 <panattan> oh well :)
Nov 02 14:34:16 <DocScrutinizer> mgedmin: yeah, great approach. I send a mail, then I send it again to upload it to IMAP server's sent-mail folder
Nov 02 14:34:19 <pvanhoof> Shapeshifter, I don't remember the exact modest_* api , that's too long ago
Nov 02 14:34:55 <Shapeshifter> right
Nov 02 14:35:01 <DocScrutinizer> panattan: yes, in mce - lart mce
Nov 02 14:35:01 <panattan> Shapeshifter i was planning to dissamble my device he he
Nov 02 14:35:14 <pvanhoof> docScrutinizer, I assume you know anything about mail? Because you're making the kinds of claims a clown would make
Nov 02 14:35:14 <pvanhoof> But go ahead
Nov 02 14:35:22 <pvanhoof> Perhaps you find somebody who'll actually code your crazy ideas :)
Nov 02 14:35:35 <panattan> but i'll do to adjust the resistance of the keyboard
Nov 02 14:35:39 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: haha
Nov 02 14:35:53 * RST38h hehes at pvanhoof
Nov 02 14:35:55 <pvanhoof> rsync a Maildir folder :)
Nov 02 14:35:57 <wazd> Guys, if anyone can help me with some basic flash script - that would be awesome :)
Nov 02 14:36:10 <pvanhoof> Could work, it's not exactly close to the use-case "email", but sure
Nov 02 14:36:16 <DocScrutinizer> it's not a crazy idea, it's what I see happening every day with my friggin local-IMAP account I'm urged to use
Nov 02 14:36:22 <RST38h> Should I simply remember two of three most despised parts of Maemo?
Nov 02 14:36:30 <RST38h> Tracker and Modest? =)
Nov 02 14:36:41 <alterego> Reall wonderful when the N900 goes through it's annoying auto-update process whilst I'm trying to develop with Qt creator ..
Nov 02 14:36:41 <andax> DocScrutinizer: main channel of puppy is just around the corner, on freenode: /join #puppylinux
Nov 02 14:36:45 <pvanhoof> RST38h, and I'm involved in both :D
Nov 02 14:36:48 <wazd> RST38h: o/
Nov 02 14:36:53 <RST38h> pvanhoof: exactly =)
Nov 02 14:37:02 <DocScrutinizer> andax: relevance? context?
Nov 02 14:37:03 <pvanhoof> RST38h, must be me :)
Nov 02 14:37:25 <pvanhoof> RST38h, and in harmattan there will be even more tracker. but email is going to be different :)
Nov 02 14:37:28 <RST38h> Tar and feathers, QUICK!
Nov 02 14:37:50 <pvanhoof> anyway, meeting
Nov 02 14:37:57 <RST38h> pvanhoof: As long as the goddamn daemon does not think it owns my device, I would be happy
Nov 02 14:37:58 <andax> DocScrutinizer: context: linking man manual pages to web resources
Nov 02 14:38:03 <pvanhoof> RST38h, ok
Nov 02 14:38:08 <RST38h> But something is telling me it will be the same as in Fremantle, or worse...
Nov 02 14:38:33 <pvanhoof> RST38h, we have quite a lot of talks with the smart guys at nokia (being, the powermanagement guys, etc). Don't worry :)
Nov 02 14:38:36 <lcuk> hey pvanhoof \o
Nov 02 14:38:43 <pvanhoof> hey lcuk , meeting now
Nov 02 14:38:53 <luke-jr> madduck: offline/sharing is not something that concerns the IMAP protocol ☺
Nov 02 14:39:06 <luke-jr> those are client/server implementation features
Nov 02 14:39:06 <pvanhoof> RST38h, tracker will be completely different in harmattan than it was in fremantle
Nov 02 14:39:28 <DocScrutinizer> basically IMAP<webmailer, and local-IMAP<rsync
Nov 02 14:39:51 <luke-jr> IMAP > *
Nov 02 14:40:09 <luke-jr> though I agree that Modest < webmail
Nov 02 14:40:41 <rokr1> run mailserver in N900
Nov 02 14:40:43 <Shapeshifter> webmail is a pain when you have 5 accounts that you don't want to mix up / redirect to a single account
Nov 02 14:40:46 * luke-jr notes that webmail is just a HTTP-based IMAP client
Nov 02 14:40:47 * pvanhoof didn't work on modest' UI, luckily :)
Nov 02 14:40:52 <pvanhoof> I can always blame someone else :)
Nov 02 14:41:29 <andax> DocScrutinizer: relevance: *shrugs* its not that important, as there are online resources available with the browser as well, when you know where to search, but though, puppy is a very compact linux distribution where some other nice hints to improve maemo performance could be catched up as well
Nov 02 14:41:34 <DocScrutinizer> Shapeshifter: err, so you prefer to mix them up in one crappy mailer client via IMAP instead?
Nov 02 14:41:35 <luke-jr> that is, webmail = IMAP minus standards
Nov 02 14:42:08 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer: yes
Nov 02 14:42:19 <luke-jr> DocScrutinizer: I prefer to mix them up in one not-crappy mailer client via IMAP ☺
Nov 02 14:43:23 <pvanhoof> given that tracker is a full rdf store, why not just store all bodystructure metadata from imap in tracker, and then have n clients making sparql queries to show e-mails?
Nov 02 14:43:29 <luke-jr> KMail certainly works better than any webmail client
Nov 02 14:43:44 <pvanhoof> and forget about this 'there is an email client' idea
Nov 02 14:43:52 <DocScrutinizer> MUHAHAHAHAHA @ tracker for mail
Nov 02 14:43:52 <pvanhoof> everything can be that
Nov 02 14:44:09 <pvanhoof> docScrutinizer probably has no clue what sparql or rdf is
Nov 02 14:44:14 <pvanhoof> but anyway
Nov 02 14:44:19 <luke-jr> or anything
Nov 02 14:44:21 <luke-jr> <.<
Nov 02 14:44:28 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: au contraire monsieur
Nov 02 14:44:44 <RST38h> pvanhoof: I am afraid that the real solution here is "less tracker", but this is off the table between your smart nokia guys
Nov 02 14:45:00 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Because power management has nothing to do with the problems people are having
Nov 02 14:45:07 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: you seem to have no idea about how much tracker SUCKS
Nov 02 14:45:22 <luke-jr> tracker/nepomuk/akonadi/etc could be useful if they had a sane implementation of the concepts proposed
Nov 02 14:45:24 <luke-jr> but none do
Nov 02 14:45:26 <RST38h> pvanhoof: The main problem is that Tracker hogs the memory card bandwidth, affecting both disk operations and swap file use
Nov 02 14:46:04 <pvanhoof> RST38h, again, tracker on fremantle is completely different than tracker on harmattan. you're comparing apples with cows
Nov 02 14:46:07 <RST38h> pvanhoof: And yes, I am afraid I have to agree with Doc: you have no idea about the pain tracker causes in Fremantle =(
Nov 02 14:46:20 <pvanhoof> *repeat* RST38h, again, tracker on fremantle is completely different than tracker on harmattan. you're comparing apples with cows
Nov 02 14:46:20 <mgedmin> to be fair, hildon-thumnailer is worse than tracker in that respect
Nov 02 14:46:37 <RST38h> pvanhoof: But both versions of Tracker will scan media files content right?
Nov 02 14:47:00 <pvanhoof> miner-fs does the scanning in harmattan, it's separate from the rdf store
Nov 02 14:47:02 <lcuk> mgedmin, in process thumbnailing (whilst you have the big image) is a drum I have been banging for a while ;)
Nov 02 14:47:23 <DocScrutinizer> so how we're talking about harmattan now? o.O
Nov 02 14:47:35 <lcuk> pvanhoof, did you actually manage to talk with anyone after our discussion at the start of the year?
Nov 02 14:47:36 <mgedmin> pvanhoof, can tracker be configured to scan only one type of file (e.g. audio but not images) in a particular directory subtree?
Nov 02 14:48:03 <mgedmin> someone here complained about album images cluttering up his pictures, and we found no solution
Nov 02 14:48:03 <pvanhoof> mgedmin, yes
Nov 02 14:48:21 <pvanhoof> ah, no, not 0.6
Nov 02 14:48:27 <mgedmin> freemantle tracker? ah
Nov 02 14:48:35 <RST38h> pvanhoof: But the miner-fs will still hog bandwidth when scanning media files, right?
Nov 02 14:48:39 <mgedmin> still, improvement is good
Nov 02 14:48:42 * pvanhoof keeps forgetting youguys only talk about fremantle :) which is ancient stuff
Nov 02 14:48:51 <Shapeshifter> huh
Nov 02 14:48:51 <mgedmin> we speculate about meego sometimes
Nov 02 14:48:52 <pvanhoof> RST38h, no
Nov 02 14:48:55 <Shapeshifter> tracker didn't seem so bad
Nov 02 14:48:55 <DocScrutinizer> mgedmin: (was me :-P)
Nov 02 14:48:56 <luke-jr> RST38h: hopefulyl not
Nov 02 14:49:04 <RST38h> We guys learned it the hard way that "stuff" does not change all that much
Nov 02 14:49:10 <pvanhoof> RST38h, ipc between miner-fs and tracker-store is FD passing, so no hogging
Nov 02 14:49:11 <luke-jr> RST38h: neither would tracker in fremantle, if we had an up to date kernel
Nov 02 14:49:21 <RST38h> pvanhoof: I am not talking about IPC
Nov 02 14:49:49 <RST38h> pvanhoof: I am talking about actually accessing the media files content to scan for metadata, create thumbnails, etc
Nov 02 14:49:50 <lcuk> pvanhoof, fremantle stuff is ancient but on the whole relaible and not green code
Nov 02 14:49:58 <lcuk> reliable even :P
Nov 02 14:49:59 <RST38h> pvanhoof: This will continue to happen, right?
Nov 02 14:50:11 <pvanhoof> thumbnailing wont happen in background anymore for example
Nov 02 14:50:17 <RST38h> luke: has anyone tried using an uptodate kernel in fremantle?
Nov 02 14:50:24 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Ah, cool
Nov 02 14:50:26 <luke-jr> RST38h: impossible still afaik
Nov 02 14:50:33 <RST38h> pvanhoof: So how will it happen? =)
Nov 02 14:50:38 <pvanhoof> perhaps when the device is charging it will
Nov 02 14:50:38 <pvanhoof> but that's being discussed
Nov 02 14:50:42 <pvanhoof> miner-fs has seen huge performance improvements too
Nov 02 14:50:50 <pvanhoof> RST38h, on-demand
Nov 02 14:51:11 <pvanhoof> apps need to use an api, usage of that api will enqueue a thumbnail requedst
Nov 02 14:51:11 <RST38h> Ok. So, when I shoot a photo, will it appear in the gallery immediately or once the device has been charged?
Nov 02 14:51:24 <pvanhoof> immediately  of course
Nov 02 14:51:36 <pvanhoof> just the building of thumbnails will be slower the first time
Nov 02 14:51:43 <TriztN900> sometimes mine lags a lot
Nov 02 14:51:56 <rokr1_> wat lags
Nov 02 14:52:03 <pvanhoof> but we are discussing whether we will do background thumbnailing while charging
Nov 02 14:52:08 <pvanhoof> to speed that up
Nov 02 14:52:46 <Shapeshifter> pvanhoof: while charging, if the device hasn't been used for 10 minutes
Nov 02 14:52:56 <Shapeshifter> and it should stop when the user does stuff
Nov 02 14:53:14 <pvanhoof> sure, but we have not discussed this yet. but yeah something like that
Nov 02 14:53:15 <RST38h> pvanhoof: So, once you shoot a photo and miner-fs kicks in, when will it let me make another photo?
Nov 02 14:53:29 <TriztN900> rokr1_: the cellphone gets lagish for no real reason
Nov 02 14:53:34 <pvanhoof> RST38h, miner-fs runs at a lower priority than the camera software
Nov 02 14:53:35 <RST38h> Right now, it usually lets me use the device after 20-40 seconds of mad thumbnailing
Nov 02 14:53:40 <pvanhoof> RST38h, so it can't even interfere
Nov 02 14:53:47 <pvanhoof> RST38h, kernel forces that situation
Nov 02 14:53:52 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Yes, but it accesses the disk with the same priority as kernel swap
Nov 02 14:53:52 <DocScrutinizer> the whole idea to make tracker an core function instead of a complementary source of info that's not _needed_ by *any* app, is fubar
Nov 02 14:54:05 <pvanhoof> RST38h, that for example will change
Nov 02 14:54:13 <pvanhoof> RST38h, but I can't give all details
Nov 02 14:54:14 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Will it? Good.
Nov 02 14:54:23 <pvanhoof> follow what we commit?
Nov 02 14:54:32 <pvanhoof> all of tracker is open
Nov 02 14:54:51 <pvanhoof> abustany even has tracker harmattan packages for fremantle
Nov 02 14:54:57 <pvanhoof> you can try it on your n900
Nov 02 14:55:19 <pvanhoof> it's just not compatible with the softwares that use tracker 0.6, so you can't replace 0.6
Nov 02 14:55:30 <pvanhoof> and nothing would use the new tracker
Nov 02 14:55:58 <pvanhoof> i think there's a 'fremantle' branch on gitorious with the debian/
Nov 02 14:56:47 <pvanhoof> docScrutinizer, if you follow the open things happening in harmattan, you'll realize that tracker will be the information source #1 for almost all apps
Nov 02 14:57:00 <DocScrutinizer> OMFG
Nov 02 14:57:02 <Shapeshifter> but in the end, it's a bit evident that these large-scale multipurpose database/indexing thingies never really get used for anything apart from the people who wrote them
Nov 02 14:57:08 <Shapeshifter> like strigi
Nov 02 14:57:13 <Shapeshifter> or the others
Nov 02 14:57:35 <pvanhoof> But again, tracker harmattan is completely different than tracker fremantle
Nov 02 14:57:35 <pvanhoof> so you're omfging based on 0.6, which is pointless
Nov 02 14:57:46 <DocScrutinizer> can't wait to trample on my N900 when there'll be no way to further maintain a *sane* OS and set of apps on it anymore
Nov 02 14:57:54 <pvanhoof> Also isn't indexing the main use-case
Nov 02 14:58:05 <Shapeshifter> every app should come with their specific implementation that caters to its specific needs
Nov 02 14:58:07 <pvanhoof> Most apps save into tracker themselves
Nov 02 14:58:17 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer: huh
Nov 02 14:58:23 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer: the n900 is not sane atm
Nov 02 14:58:48 <pvanhoof> But I don't have the impression that most people involved in this discussion have much of a clue of tracker harmattan, so these omfgs are quite pointless
Nov 02 14:59:00 <pvanhoof> Get a clue first
Nov 02 14:59:02 <DocScrutinizer> sure, but ATM it's only mediaplayer and galery that are friggin fubar due to being tracker reliant
Nov 02 14:59:08 <lcuk> pvanhoof, does tracker have a set of things to record food purchases or till receipts?
Nov 02 14:59:23 <pvanhoof> lcuk, if you make an ontology for that, it could
Nov 02 14:59:37 <lcuk> food->animal->bacon
Nov 02 14:59:45 <lcuk> done!
Nov 02 15:01:16 <andax> darvin->lcuk
Nov 02 15:01:21 <andax> \o/
Nov 02 15:01:40 <RST38h> pvanhoof: People involved in this discussion do not question your implementation of the Tracker
Nov 02 15:02:00 <RST38h> pvanhoof: They question whether this infernal program is needed at all
Nov 02 15:02:46 <pvanhoof> It's central
Nov 02 15:02:51 <RST38h> Because there does not appear to be a way to reconcile aggressive indexing needed to make media files available immediately and the limited resources of the device
Nov 02 15:02:57 <lcuk> i do not doubt it is required, however a "minimal" scan variation which does whats required without having to count every molecule and atom of hte data ;)
Nov 02 15:02:59 <RST38h> Central to what?
Nov 02 15:03:05 <RST38h> It is not central to me, for example
Nov 02 15:03:10 <RST38h> It is detrimental to me
Nov 02 15:03:20 <pvanhoof> RST38h, tracker's rdf store is the central meta info store of harmattan
Nov 02 15:03:29 <pvanhoof> indexing isn't the main use-case
Nov 02 15:03:40 <Shapeshifter> just make sure it's fast :)
Nov 02 15:03:45 <Shapeshifter> and that it's awesome please
Nov 02 15:03:46 <RST38h> What if I am not interested in the meta info?
Nov 02 15:03:47 <pvanhoof> there's an external app that does that
Nov 02 15:03:55 <pvanhoof> RST38h, meta info is all info of your phone
Nov 02 15:03:57 <RST38h> What if I am just interested in files?
Nov 02 15:03:58 <Shapeshifter> if it's not going to be awesome, everybody will hate you, mkay?
Nov 02 15:03:59 <pvanhoof> RST38h, your contacts for example
Nov 02 15:04:01 <pvanhoof> RST38h, your emails
Nov 02 15:04:04 <pvanhoof> RST38h, everything
Nov 02 15:04:11 <RST38h> pvanhoof: So, if the rdf store goes, what happens?
Nov 02 15:04:18 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: I got a pretty good clue about tracker fanboys trying to reinvent the directory hierarchy paradigm and replacing it with a incredibly spare thought and implemented mockup of a associative fs. This won't change no matter how smart harmattan tracker might act
Nov 02 15:04:22 <pvanhoof> your phone wont work without it
Nov 02 15:04:27 <RST38h> You know how sqlite databases always end up being corrupted
Nov 02 15:04:31 <f3ew> ~pr1.3
Nov 02 15:04:31 <infobot> i guess pr1.3 is the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.3 -- see ~flashing for how to update
Nov 02 15:04:38 <RST38h> So, if your rdf store gets corrupted I lose all my data?
Nov 02 15:04:38 <pvanhoof> docScrutinizer, whatever
Nov 02 15:04:39 * f3ew sighs
Nov 02 15:04:42 <DocScrutinizer> s/spare/sparse/
Nov 02 15:04:42 <infobot> DocScrutinizer meant: pvanhoof: I got a pretty good clue about tracker fanboys trying to reinvent the directory hierarchy paradigm and replacing it with a incredibly sparse thought and implemented mockup of a associative fs. This won't change no matter how smart harmattan trac...
Nov 02 15:04:53 <f3ew> So I ran apt-get dist-upgrade
Nov 02 15:04:54 <pvanhoof> RST38h, we have a journal that would get replayed
Nov 02 15:05:01 <Shapeshifter> f3ew: *zing*
Nov 02 15:05:02 <RST38h> Hmm, ok
Nov 02 15:05:04 <f3ew> Options to rollback?
Nov 02 15:05:09 <RST38h> So, you are telling me that it should not...
Nov 02 15:05:12 <f3ew> Or rather, what breaks?
Nov 02 15:05:25 <pvanhoof> RST38h, if the sqlite db corrupts, we have a full journal
Nov 02 15:05:43 <pvanhoof> RST38h, it'll take some time to restore the database based on the journal, but no data would be lost
Nov 02 15:05:44 <f3ew> the OTA stuff was whining at me about upgrading
Nov 02 15:05:58 <f3ew> ~flashing
Nov 02 15:05:58 <pvanhoof> RST38h, that means that indeed we store everything twice, redundantly
Nov 02 15:05:58 <infobot> it has been said that flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Nov 02 15:06:12 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Ok, windows registry way
Nov 02 15:06:20 <X-Fade> f3ew: when you reboot, your device won't start up anymore.
Nov 02 15:06:26 <pvanhoof> RST38h, but this is an opensource project
Nov 02 15:06:34 <pvanhoof> RST38h, it has nothing to do with windows registry
Nov 02 15:06:39 <RST38h> How does storing everything twice, in a scattered data store, affect performance?
Nov 02 15:06:47 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Actually, it does
Nov 02 15:06:57 <pvanhoof> RST38h, he journal is append-write , it doesn't affect performance much
Nov 02 15:07:05 <RST38h> pvanhoof: You just have to look at it from a different point of view (not closed/open)
Nov 02 15:07:16 <RST38h> ok, at least that is nice
Nov 02 15:07:39 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Before, you had .ini files, where information was scattered over multiple files. It was inefficient, maybe, but reliable
Nov 02 15:07:41 <pvanhoof> well just the word "journal" should have given you that clue if you have a little bit of IT knowledge
Nov 02 15:07:46 <pvanhoof> but anyway
Nov 02 15:07:57 <f3ew> X-Fade it has restarted :)
Nov 02 15:08:01 <lcuk> RST38h, finding a way for you to access data you expect without impacting performance is the goal, not removing it entirely
Nov 02 15:08:03 <RST38h> pvanhoof: then Mictosoft created one big bloody data store (as a single huge file of course) with all the data
Nov 02 15:08:09 <f3ew> The only thing which appears to be broken is the FM Radio
Nov 02 15:08:13 <pvanhoof> RST38h, it's not configuration data
Nov 02 15:08:23 <RST38h> lcuk: I di not expect any metadata other than filenames.
Nov 02 15:08:32 <RST38h> pvanhoof: it is data
Nov 02 15:08:35 <pvanhoof> it's not even remotely comparable to .ini files
Nov 02 15:08:35 <lcuk> RST38h, you do not, but many many people do
Nov 02 15:08:44 <RST38h> pvanhoof: let us not consider its purpose, just its importance
Nov 02 15:08:56 * DocScrutinizer is sensing quite a bit of arrogance in pvanhoof's statements
Nov 02 15:09:01 <pvanhoof> RST38h, look up SPARQL at w3, read it, read Nepomuk, come back, discuss with me
Nov 02 15:09:11 <pvanhoof> RST38h, it's ridiculous to discuss with people who are clueless
Nov 02 15:09:17 <pvanhoof> seriously
Nov 02 15:09:19 <RST38h> pvanhoof: So, what does MS get out of this? The single store is faster to access, easier to control access to, can be accessed remotely
Nov 02 15:09:27 <RST38h> pvanhoof: But I did
Nov 02 15:09:32 <lcuk> RST38h, like I said the other night, a minimally invasive day to day scan maintianing the core pieces in a turbo mode would be most reasonable compromise :P
Nov 02 15:09:38 <DocScrutinizer> well, I guess you need that to shove down everybody's throat a new concept that nobody ever asked for
Nov 02 15:09:40 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer: he's the dude with the clue, no?
Nov 02 15:09:46 <RST38h> pvanhoof: And not every person who does not agree with your core ideas is "clueless" or "clown"
Nov 02 15:09:47 <pvanhoof> RST38h, and you are still comparing this with a configuration store? read it aain
Nov 02 15:09:50 <pvanhoof> *again
Nov 02 15:10:11 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Ok, you got a store with important data, all in a huge blob
Nov 02 15:10:15 <pvanhoof> sorry, but you don't really sound like having any clue at all, if you compare this with a configuration store
Nov 02 15:10:18 <pvanhoof> that's just a fact
Nov 02 15:10:31 <pvanhoof> I didn't create that fact
Nov 02 15:10:36 <RST38h> pvanhoof: The blob is structured inside, so writing a tiny bit of garbage may destroy it completely
Nov 02 15:10:55 <pvanhoof> yes, so does throwing your device in water
Nov 02 15:10:59 <pvanhoof> what is your point?
Nov 02 15:11:04 <lcuk> pvanhoof, microsoft does store "meta data" about every explorer window i nthe system, literally one branch with all configuration options *per folder* for every folder you ever open on the system
Nov 02 15:11:05 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Notice, how this applies BOTh to win registery and your tracker rdf store
Nov 02 15:11:23 <lcuk> thats just one tiny portion of windows registry and RST38h's point is very valid
Nov 02 15:11:49 <pvanhoof> RST38h, let me know how we can return a query over 10.000 .init files in 0.5 seconds
Nov 02 15:11:50 <RST38h> pvanhoof: My point is that by hiding my important data inside a huge structured ball of data closed to inspection, you endanger my data
Nov 02 15:11:54 <pvanhoof> RST38h, let me know how we can return a query over 10.000 .ini files in 0.5 seconds
Nov 02 15:12:08 <pvanhoof> im waitin
Nov 02 15:12:10 <pvanhoof> im waitin
Nov 02 15:12:21 <pvanhoof> go on, explain me
Nov 02 15:12:38 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: you can wait until cows come home, there's no such usecase
Nov 02 15:12:42 <pvanhoof> and it should be a query language as rich as SPARQL, and rdf metadata as expressive as Nepomuk
Nov 02 15:12:46 <RST38h> pvanhoof: And, unlike throwing your device into a lake, you are constantly writing somethign to that data blob, updating its structure, adding more data, so probability of fucking it up is way way higher
Nov 02 15:12:52 <lcuk> pvanhoof, see windows api RegEnumKeyEx()
Nov 02 15:13:02 <pvanhoof> docScrutinizer, except each and every application's use-cases
Nov 02 15:13:12 <RST38h> pvanhoof: But the thing is, as an end user, I do not care about SPARQL richness
Nov 02 15:13:19 <pvanhoof> RST38h, again, you're being clueless. I already told you about the journal.
Nov 02 15:13:28 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Or RDF expressivness
Nov 02 15:13:33 <f3ew> pvanhoof the reason text files matter is that their worst case sucks less than the worst case of a binary blog
Nov 02 15:13:34 <f3ew> blob
Nov 02 15:13:36 <DocScrutinizer> aaah yes, as we got 10.000 ini files on *any* systen in this galaxy
Nov 02 15:13:43 <pvanhoof> RST38h, you actually do. But you just don't understand what you're talking about
Nov 02 15:13:46 <RST38h> pvanhoof: And thanks for that, journaling actually makes me feel safer
Nov 02 15:13:50 <RST38h> *A bit*
Nov 02 15:13:58 <Sargun_Screen> RST38h: okay, don't throw my device into a lake, check.
Nov 02 15:14:00 <f3ew> The blob gives you better performance, the flat text files give you debugging ability. I'll take the debugging ability over speed
Nov 02 15:14:02 <DocScrutinizer> and especially we got apps that need to know about all the 10.000
Nov 02 15:14:08 <RST38h> I do, pvanhoof, that is the problem :(
Nov 02 15:14:29 <pvanhoof> RST38h, i can give you a bunch of use-cases that you just can't solve with your ini files
Nov 02 15:14:33 <pvanhoof> but seriously
Nov 02 15:14:35 <pvanhoof> really
Nov 02 15:14:38 <pvanhoof> im wasting my time here
Nov 02 15:14:47 <pvanhoof> it's ridiculous
Nov 02 15:14:56 <RST38h> pvanhoof: I am not trying to solve anything with my ini files
Nov 02 15:15:10 <RST38h> If you scroll back, you will not see me offering you to store tracker data in ini files :)
Nov 02 15:15:14 <Sargun_Screen> pvanhoof: what do you propose instead? Oracle databases?
Nov 02 15:15:15 <DocScrutinizer> that's the first time I agree with pvanhoof
Nov 02 15:15:27 <pvanhoof> Sargun_Screen, im not proposing anything
Nov 02 15:15:30 <RST38h> You *will* see me questioning whather you need Tracker at all though
Nov 02 15:15:44 <pvanhoof> Sargun_Screen, we have a fairly good solution.
Nov 02 15:16:05 <Sargun_Screen> pvanhoof: I'm just teasing.
Nov 02 15:16:05 <Lynoure> drat, I should do real work and not read about your tracker war =)
Nov 02 15:16:07 <pvanhoof> Sargun_Screen, for technical people who do have a clue: Oracle uses way too much RAM
Nov 02 15:16:16 <RST38h> Whether all this extensive rdf data with rich sparql query language is actually useful to end users who often just want to play a file from a directory
Nov 02 15:16:32 <pvanhoof> Sargun_Screen, and that's the problem with most non-embedded databases
Nov 02 15:16:46 <pvanhoof> They are optimized on being fast, by using huge amounts of ram
Nov 02 15:16:47 <Shapeshifter> well as I said, if it sucks we'll just continue hating on pvanhoof, until then, it doesn't sound too bad, does it.
Nov 02 15:16:48 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: +++++++!
Nov 02 15:17:01 <Sargun_Screen> pvanhoof: oracle sucks way too many resources. i help run a db cluster at work, it's scary
Nov 02 15:17:12 <RST38h> After all, pvanhoof, you already GOT the data store from the operating system
Nov 02 15:17:22 <Shapeshifter> I can imagine a couple of upsides if many apps use the same database
Nov 02 15:17:24 <Sargun_Screen> pvanhoof: iirc, oracle has a set of embedded products though :-P
Nov 02 15:17:30 <RST38h> It is called the filesystem, and a lot of smart people spent years of work to make it reliable and fast
Nov 02 15:17:34 <CutMeOwnThroat> you guys mention my nickname a lot...
Nov 02 15:17:48 <Sargun_Screen> pvanhoof: (this does not mean I'm endorsing oracle...)
Nov 02 15:17:59 <pvanhoof> Sargun_Screen, yes, well, we evaluated several database engines. But ever since SQLite started with WAL, we're quite ok with SQLite now
Nov 02 15:18:06 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: yeah!
Nov 02 15:18:11 <pvanhoof> Sargun_Screen, as it gives us some sort of MVCC
Nov 02 15:18:25 <pvanhoof> Sargun_Screen, meaning that we can allow individual processes to directly connect with the .db file
Nov 02 15:18:32 <pvanhoof> Avoiding IPC, etc
Nov 02 15:18:35 <Sargun_Screen> pvanhoof: I love sqlite for tiny embedded things.
Nov 02 15:18:51 <pvanhoof> Well with WAL journaling it's kinda cool
Nov 02 15:19:10 <Sargun_Screen> we use it on a bunch of embedded devices, but have a custom wrapper for data compaction
Nov 02 15:19:30 <chem|st> pvanhoof: does harmattan tracker still use +40% cpu after massstorage use?
Nov 02 15:19:36 <DocScrutinizer> Sargun_Screen: yeah, and I seen a guy who has written a text editor in VBA for excel, as he loved his cell oriented sheets so much he spent one cell per char
Nov 02 15:19:38 <pvanhoof> RST38h, a lot of our database can't be represented as a file. Besides, we don't say apps shouldn't store the data in files too. We just cache the metadata and make it queryable efficiently
Nov 02 15:20:05 <pvanhoof> chem|st, on harmattan we have a kernel limit of 50MB, we use 8MB on average
Nov 02 15:20:22 <pvanhoof> chem|st, during journal replay and backup-restore we consume ~ 45MB
Nov 02 15:20:25 <chem|st> pvanhoof: +without changes to anything for several minutes
Nov 02 15:20:34 <RST38h> pvanhoof: You could have considered a much more lightweight approach of creating .metadata files in directories containing the media files
Nov 02 15:20:39 <chem|st> pvanhoof: % cpu not ram
Nov 02 15:20:46 <Sargun_Screen> DocScrutinizer: haha, that's kind of one of my assignments for school. I have to write a halogen lamp analysis program in excel.
Nov 02 15:20:52 <pvanhoof> RST38h, you can't efficiently query that
Nov 02 15:20:54 <chem|st> or disk space
Nov 02 15:20:56 <RST38h> pvahoof: this way, your data store becomes distributed, with every piece small
Nov 02 15:21:02 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: everybody with a clue in IT would notice the diff between CPU and RAM usage
Nov 02 15:21:07 <RST38h> pvanhoof: But do I need to?
Nov 02 15:21:13 <Juozapas> do u know any wireless remote control program fot controling vlc, amarok etc ? like remuco.
Nov 02 15:21:14 <pvanhoof> RST38h, your apps do
Nov 02 15:21:16 * Sargun_Screen hides...
Nov 02 15:21:21 <RST38h> pvanhoof: What makes you think I ever need to query accross many dirs?
Nov 02 15:21:34 <pvanhoof> RST38h, our use-cases
Nov 02 15:21:48 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Do these use cases reflect actual usage?
Nov 02 15:21:51 <pvanhoof> yes
Nov 02 15:21:58 <RST38h> pvanhoof: I am pretty sure your Fremantle use-cases did not
Nov 02 15:22:10 <RST38h> pvanhoof: (and for Modest too)
Nov 02 15:22:12 <chem|st> pvanhoof: please give an example
Nov 02 15:24:24 <jacktheripper> what version of xserver does maemo currently have ?
Nov 02 15:24:39 <chem|st> nos does resort my music and pictures anytime syncing, if I would use that I would need a tracker cause it f*** my own setup of folders and files
Nov 02 15:24:40 <pvanhoof> the kind of use-cases are like: give me all photos that I took when i was in paris. give me the contacts that can be seen in the pictures
Nov 02 15:25:12 <pvanhoof> directories are for computer people, not for phone users. besides, files isn't the point
Nov 02 15:25:15 <lcuk> "show me all photos with purple lingerie"    errr should I have said that out loud :P
Nov 02 15:25:16 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Ok, should we go over these cases?
Nov 02 15:25:18 <pvanhoof> read the nepomuk ontology
Nov 02 15:25:53 <RST38h> pvanhoof: To see all photos I made in <XXX>, all I need to do is visit a dated directory at my camera SD card
Nov 02 15:25:55 <pvanhoof> the point is cross referencing over different domains
Nov 02 15:26:08 <RST38h> pvanhoof: You see, Canon solved this problem by simply creating a new directory every month
Nov 02 15:26:11 <Lynoure> lcuk: I was thinking Amarok searches I do almost daily
Nov 02 15:26:12 <chem|st> pvanhoof: that use-case is obsolete for most people as you dont powerup gps for snapshots and don't tag all
Nov 02 15:26:13 <RST38h> And naming files properly
Nov 02 15:26:22 <lcuk> lol Lynoure
Nov 02 15:26:49 <chem|st> sort by date in a folder does not need a tracker...
Nov 02 15:26:51 <lcuk> why are these 2 use cases and operations not compatible?
Nov 02 15:26:54 <RST38h> pvanhoof: You "contacts in pictures" use-case is unrealistic because it requires very advanced face recognition AND a separate photo for each contact
Nov 02 15:27:09 <RST38h> pvanhoof: I will give you a realistic use case instead
Nov 02 15:27:11 <lcuk> just use a simpler scan and only store filename/basic information for people that say thats what they want
Nov 02 15:27:28 <RST38h> pvanhoof: "make 15 photos of my kids running around, in quick succession"
Nov 02 15:27:39 <pvanhoof> RST38h, there's a guy in the community implementing that face recognition, and it's not the point in itself
Nov 02 15:27:53 <pvanhoof> you could for example have a tag widget for that
Nov 02 15:27:58 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Dunno about mighty harmattan, but on fremantle it goes like this: "Make one photo. Quickly make another photo. Suffer. SUFFER. SUFFER."
Nov 02 15:28:09 <lcuk> RST38h, errr
Nov 02 15:28:13 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Of course it IS the point.
Nov 02 15:28:13 <lcuk> i take many many photos
Nov 02 15:28:22 <lcuk> i juse backed up last night actually, 9gb of them
Nov 02 15:28:26 <RST38h> pvanhoof: You have said that you considered REALISTIC use cases
Nov 02 15:28:45 <chem|st> RST38h: that is thumbnail0r + tracker, the mighty device-freeze-combo
Nov 02 15:28:47 <pvanhoof> RST38h, I of course can't tell you the ui stories and use-cases that we get here
Nov 02 15:28:48 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Two sample use case you have given as examples though, turned out to be duds
Nov 02 15:28:52 <pvanhoof> RST38h, you know that as good as I know
Nov 02 15:29:00 <PaulFertser> LOL, inventing some complex obscure slow system for some unrealistic usecases just to make your users' lifes harder.
Nov 02 15:29:06 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Once is solved by correct placement of photos by the camera app. Another is someone's research paper
Nov 02 15:29:26 <RST38h> chem|st: Exactly
Nov 02 15:29:29 <pvanhoof> look, im in a meeting
Nov 02 15:29:34 * Lynoure lost the goal of the debate a while ago... could someone enlighten me?
Nov 02 15:29:35 <pvanhoof> im really wasting my time with you RST38h
Nov 02 15:29:49 <PaulFertser> There's > 500 members on this channel and you pvanhoof say that somebody needs that usecases, where're those who does?
Nov 02 15:29:49 <RST38h> Ehhehe
Nov 02 15:29:54 <chem|st> pvanhoof: it is good for people who like to be kept sorted... ever heard of freedom?
Nov 02 15:30:11 <pvanhoof> chem|st, git.gnome.org and checkout tracker
Nov 02 15:30:11 <RST38h> Go, pvanhoof, don't waste your time here
Nov 02 15:30:11 <Sargun_Screen> Lynoure: seconded
Nov 02 15:30:16 <Lynoure> pvanhoof: beats a boring meeting on a rainy day, possibly? =)
Nov 02 15:30:34 <Sargun_Screen> just please, please, don't use gconf.
Nov 02 15:30:41 <RST38h> Don't let reality turn you away from the sparqling goal :)
Nov 02 15:30:43 <Lynoure> Sargun_Screen: seconded :)
Nov 02 15:30:49 <lcuk> sigh
Nov 02 15:31:10 <Sargun_Screen> use sqlite with a well documented schema, or filesystem/text
Nov 02 15:31:19 <Sargun_Screen> lcuk: do you lobe gconf?
Nov 02 15:31:48 <lcuk> lobe?
Nov 02 15:31:52 <Sargun_Screen> love
Nov 02 15:32:00 <lcuk> Sargun_Screen, nothing to do with it
Nov 02 15:32:59 <lcuk> i see tracker as being important to people and a bane to others - RST38h has a valid point about filesystem simplistic people and pvanhoof has a point about indexed everything
Nov 02 15:33:10 <lcuk> i sighed because you are both to pig headed to see that ;)
Nov 02 15:33:30 <RST38h> lcuk: Try explaining what points we have, in detail
Nov 02 15:33:38 <RST38h> You will see why we are "pig headed"
Nov 02 15:34:02 <Sargun_Screen> lcuk: yes, but anyone even thinking about it, is having a bad idea (re: oracle fun i was poking earlier)
Nov 02 15:34:03 <lcuk> RST38h, you dont want the system slowing down doing worthless stuff
Nov 02 15:34:03 <Lynoure> Pity that discussion did not take place a year ago.
Nov 02 15:34:04 <RST38h> lcuk: Do avoid words "rich", "extensive", etc. though :)
Nov 02 15:34:19 <RST38h> Lynoure: It would not change a thing.
Nov 02 15:34:30 <chem|st> RST38h: I'd love to have a msg asking me "There are changes in ~/MyDocs/.sound/ do you want to rescan and update the library? YES/NO"
Nov 02 15:34:38 <Lynoure> RST38h: no, but then it would have had a chance.
Nov 02 15:34:38 <nidO> well its more the point that you both think yours is the only "right" way, when some users prefer one and some the other, without considering the possibility that the ideal solution would be to provide both options.
Nov 02 15:34:41 <RST38h> chem|st: same here
Nov 02 15:34:49 <lcuk> RST38h, i am pleased that tracker extracts media info from music files on the whole
Nov 02 15:34:55 <lcuk> it has organised my random mp3s
Nov 02 15:35:02 <RST38h> chem|st: it is actually doable by shutting down tracker's indexing and having a desktop button "Index once"
Nov 02 15:35:12 <nidO> whereas personally I despise that tracker has done that
Nov 02 15:35:15 <lcuk> but at the same time i wish i could still use folder based organisation
Nov 02 15:35:21 <RST38h> lcuk: Organized them into what? A list of random mp3s? =)
Nov 02 15:35:46 <lcuk> RST38h, no, given me the cover art and the track information
Nov 02 15:35:48 <RST38h> nid0: Actually, I do not think that "mine" is right
Nov 02 15:36:03 <RST38h> nid0: I think that the price we are paying for having that metadata store is too high
Nov 02 15:36:12 <chem|st> RST38h: I hate it... just pluging in usb to grab some files "from" device and indexer-tracker-thumbnailer-daemon-from-hell is freezing the system for seconds and occupiing it for minutes
Nov 02 15:36:23 <RST38h> nid0: "better performing device" beats "metadata store" 100:1 in my view
Nov 02 15:36:25 <chem|st> RST38h: did that before
Nov 02 15:36:42 <RST38h> chem|st: I hate the camera thing more
Nov 02 15:36:42 <kerio> RST38h: what i want is just a damn "scan dat shit" button
Nov 02 15:36:45 <kerio> which i can push
Nov 02 15:36:50 <kerio> to get a scan with a progress bar
Nov 02 15:36:56 <chem|st> Lynoure: was it you with amarok before?
Nov 02 15:37:00 <RST38h> The USB stuff I learned to live with, just leaving device alone after disconnecting USB
Nov 02 15:37:02 <kerio> and the rest of the time, tracker should STFU
Nov 02 15:37:04 <DocScrutinizer> lcuk: pvanhoof though is trying to revolutionize age old hirachical fs based paradigma and make *all* apps follow his new shiny but weird tracker scheme
Nov 02 15:37:19 <DocScrutinizer> lcuk: nobody likes dictators
Nov 02 15:37:25 <RST38h> Doc: Which, of course, he has not been the first instance of :)
Nov 02 15:37:27 <chem|st> RST38h: but that should be fixed now I thought
Nov 02 15:37:27 <lcuk> DocScrutinizer, and you are against trying something new?
Nov 02 15:37:30 <RST38h> Doc: BeOS!
Nov 02 15:37:39 <RST38h> chem|st: Nope.
Nov 02 15:37:45 <chem|st> damn
Nov 02 15:37:53 <RST38h> lcuk: One more time, slowly:
Nov 02 15:38:01 <RST38h> lcuk: Trying something new is absolutely fine.
Nov 02 15:38:10 <RST38h> lcuk: Trying something old for the nth time is fine too, in fact
Nov 02 15:38:32 <RST38h> lcuk: Preventing me from using the device just becaue you want to try something new is bad, very bad
Nov 02 15:38:35 <DocScrutinizer> nope, I just RECOMMEND no app shall brack when tracker is not present on a system. Tracker is a pure complemetary system, it MUST NOT made core architecture
Nov 02 15:38:54 * RST38h agrees with Doc here
Nov 02 15:39:06 <RST38h> I should be able to disable the goddamn tracker,, same as I do on Ubuntu
Nov 02 15:39:08 <chem|st> true
Nov 02 15:39:21 <pvanhoof> crazy people :)
Nov 02 15:39:35 <RST38h> "Crazy" is collecting 350MB of metadata in my ~
Nov 02 15:39:42 <PaulFertser> pvanhoof: bring someone who likes tracker running in BG here
Nov 02 15:39:48 <RST38h> Killing the offending program is not "crazy", it is reasonable
Nov 02 15:39:57 <pvanhoof> How many times did I say now that tracker on harmattan is completely different than tracker on fremantle?
Nov 02 15:40:22 <DocScrutinizer> WE GIVE A FLYING F....!
Nov 02 15:40:22 <RST38h> pvanhoof: But we will not know how it is different until we try
Nov 02 15:40:29 <nidO> does it still forcibly sort your media when it wants how it wants?
Nov 02 15:40:37 <RST38h> So, lacking Harmattan, we have to make estimates based on previous experinece
Nov 02 15:40:45 <DocScrutinizer> this is about architecture, not about performance
Nov 02 15:40:49 <RST38h> And the previous experience has not been very positive, you know...
Nov 02 15:40:52 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer: I add a horse!
Nov 02 15:40:53 <kerio> tracker can SUCK MY DICK
Nov 02 15:41:05 <kerio> ok?
Nov 02 15:41:06 * pvanhoof goes into 'answers only reasonable people' mode
Nov 02 15:41:23 <pvanhoof> Channel moderators should probably consider moderating a bit more
Nov 02 15:41:24 * RST38h cackles evilly
Nov 02 15:41:36 * RST38h cackles even more evilly at that remark
Nov 02 15:41:52 <Stskeeps> behave, children
Nov 02 15:41:56 * DocScrutinizer suggests pvanhoof goes into "i'm not wasting my time" mode and occasionally rethinks his attitude
Nov 02 15:42:00 <chem|st> pvanhoof: so it is a global process in harmattan?! (not questioning the performance)
Nov 02 15:42:01 <RST38h> Stskeeps: But we do, we do
Nov 02 15:42:06 <ShadowJK> pvanhoof, yeah.. .just the problem that some of those people are some of the moderators..
Nov 02 15:42:13 <Stskeeps> it's not like you're motivating developers to discuss in the open by this behaviour
Nov 02 15:42:32 <pvanhoof> chem|st, what do you mean with global process?
Nov 02 15:42:43 <pvanhoof> ShadowJK, then the maemo community is in serious problems
Nov 02 15:42:48 <pupnik_> standard TFT versus PixelQi screen (transflective) http://pixelqi.com/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/PixelQi_display_solutions_1.jpg
Nov 02 15:42:51 <RST38h> Stskeeps: It is not possible to only make positive, agreeable comments in a discussion
Nov 02 15:42:59 <chem|st> pvanhoof: a process that needs to be kept running to not brake the system
Nov 02 15:43:07 <RST38h> Stskeeps: Especially when we are discussing something like Tracker
Nov 02 15:43:12 <chem|st> sorry not global core
Nov 02 15:43:15 <pvanhoof> chem|st, tracker is a global process then, yes
Nov 02 15:43:15 <chem|st> core I mean
Nov 02 15:43:35 <RST38h> Stskeeps: Now, you may have noticed that most of us stayed pretty civil, despite being called "clueless" and "clowns".
Nov 02 15:43:38 <lcuk> RST38h, actually you could be.
Nov 02 15:43:38 <pvanhoof> chem|st, as mentioned earlier is tracker the #1 store for almost all things on your device
Nov 02 15:43:45 <pvanhoof> chem|st, on harmattan that is
Nov 02 15:43:57 <pvanhoof> chem|st, just not for file-based data of course
Nov 02 15:44:06 <DocScrutinizer> Stskeeps: and constant offensive assumptions / statements of pvanhoof just don't help
Nov 02 15:44:10 <RST38h> Stskeeps: So, suggestion to "moderate" the people present is pretty funny
Nov 02 15:44:27 <ShadowJK> pvanhoof, what's been done different with tracker now? Is that intimidating-looking cgroups thing put to good use to throttle it now? :-)
Nov 02 15:44:43 <pvanhoof> Stskeeps, has a good point
Nov 02 15:44:46 <chem|st> pvanhoof: total fail from R&D perspective, thats like a car not to start because the navigation system is not able to start up
Nov 02 15:44:50 <Stskeeps> DocScrutinizer, RST38h: well, people are acting a bit like assholes and just attacking instead, which looks pathetic
Nov 02 15:45:01 <pvanhoof> If open discussion means being insulted, then fuck that
Nov 02 15:45:33 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: I've only one user insulting people here
Nov 02 15:45:33 <chem|st> pvanhoof: "just not for file based data"? you mean settings?
Nov 02 15:45:33 <pvanhoof> chem|st, but again, tracker on harmattan isn't as unreliable as tracker is on fremantle
Nov 02 15:45:39 <pvanhoof> chem|st, it's completely different
Nov 02 15:45:43 <DocScrutinizer> +seen
Nov 02 15:46:00 <pvanhoof> chem|st, no settings is not for tracker
Nov 02 15:46:21 <pvanhoof> chem|st, settings nor state are for tracker
Nov 02 15:46:53 <ShadowJK> I'm not so sure if the critics of tracker are that concerned with its reliability.. Though I'm not sure :)
Nov 02 15:46:54 <pvanhoof> It's an rdf store with a sparql frontend
Nov 02 15:46:57 <pvanhoof> And there's a miner too, but that doesn't play the same key role as it did on 0.6
Nov 02 15:47:00 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: citation needed? (for the insults)
Nov 02 15:47:41 <Stskeeps> DocScrutinizer, RST38h and the sad fact is that tmo, mailing lists have gone down after people stopped having civil discussions and people have been destroying this place in same manner by acting rude, paranoid and generally pathetic.
Nov 02 15:47:45 <chem|st> pvanhoof: so you mean it is data stored in something else than a file? have you ever read the #one rule of unix?
Nov 02 15:47:53 <ShadowJK> lol
Nov 02 15:47:55 <pvanhoof> ShadowJK, the performance problems with 0.6 have been dealt with of course. In fact, tracker is completely redesigned. We even wanted to rename the project at some point
Nov 02 15:48:07 <Stskeeps> DocScrutinizer, RST38h: to the extent that right now, even i feel like leaving this place not to deal with those kind of people.
Nov 02 15:48:12 <lcuk> pvanhoof, have you ever discussed transfer of tracker data between machines via syncing and stuff?
Nov 02 15:48:22 <pvanhoof> lcuk, yes this is being discussed
Nov 02 15:48:26 <lcuk> :)
Nov 02 15:48:38 <ShadowJK> Oh yes, I tried to rsync my old ~ over to my repaired N900, and the tracker database was unusable
Nov 02 15:48:54 <ShadowJK> (it was usable at the time the copy was made)
Nov 02 15:49:25 <pvanhoof> ShadowJK, to do that in a way that it'll work you would need to stop tracker first, yes
Nov 02 15:49:44 <pvanhoof> ShadowJK, the reason is sqlite's journaling.
Nov 02 15:50:09 <pvanhoof> However, that's not how you back up your device correctly
Nov 02 15:50:10 <lcuk> pvanhoof, is there any data to be stored in tracker that is not written back to the files required (like tagging and rating and stuff)
Nov 02 15:50:27 <ShadowJK> pvanhoof, the "correct" way loses data though :)
Nov 02 15:50:43 <pvanhoof> lcuk, yes there is a lot of data that can't be mapped to files' native metadata formats
Nov 02 15:50:54 <pvanhoof> lcuk, however, files aren't the only use-case, they are actually a minor use-case
Nov 02 15:50:58 <ShadowJK> Though in retrospect I should have maybe done rsync and then osso-backup restore
Nov 02 15:51:03 <pvanhoof> lcuk, for example for 'contacts' we don't have files to write back to
Nov 02 15:51:25 <pvanhoof> ShadowJK, is this about maemo/fremantle?
Nov 02 15:51:27 <lcuk> pvanhoof, well, you have vcf format which you can persist/restore from
Nov 02 15:51:31 <ShadowJK> pvanhoof, yes
Nov 02 15:52:08 <pvanhoof> lcuk, yes, but vcf files isn't how on fremantle contacts are stored. You can export to vcf files, and import from, though
Nov 02 15:52:08 <pvanhoof> err
Nov 02 15:52:12 <pvanhoof> harmattan I meant
Nov 02 15:52:22 <pvanhoof> We are the primary store for contacts
Nov 02 15:52:22 <lcuk> pvanhoof, i am talking in general, not a specific implementation
Nov 02 15:52:51 <pvanhoof> For for example music files, we play more the role of a cache
Nov 02 15:52:51 <pvanhoof> For their metadata
Nov 02 15:52:56 <RST38h> Stskeeps: Confrontation is a necessary part of the discussion
Nov 02 15:53:02 <ShadowJK> RST38h, tool ate
Nov 02 15:53:12 <pvanhoof> And we can writeback to those files in many cases
Nov 02 15:53:31 <RST38h> Wait, DON'T write back to my media files.
Nov 02 15:53:41 <lcuk> yeah pvanhoof - for mp3s and photos its quite reasonable (mp3/jpg at least)
Nov 02 15:53:53 <ShadowJK> Is this all one gigantic sqlite db for contacts and media metadata cache?
Nov 02 15:53:54 <pvanhoof> lcuk, the problem with vcf files is of course that you can't make complex queries over them, and still be fast
Nov 02 15:54:00 <RST38h> You officially have no permission to write back to my personal media files =)
Nov 02 15:54:07 <lcuk> pvanhoof, i never said to use them in day/day
Nov 02 15:54:19 <RST38h> ShadowJK: Apparently (based on the previous discussion)
Nov 02 15:54:30 <lcuk> but your remark that the information is not available in files - it *can* be using the generic vcf container if required
Nov 02 15:54:50 <pvanhoof> yes
Nov 02 15:54:57 <lcuk> RST38h, when I open image editor and set tags on things, usually I expect them to be written back to the file
Nov 02 15:55:13 <lcuk> cos i have that photo or set open
Nov 02 15:55:33 <lcuk> but generic background writing of random things is agreeably not the right way
Nov 02 15:55:48 <pvanhoof> ok /me has food plans in 30 minutes
Nov 02 15:56:21 <ShadowJK> On fremantle, as a user, I've noticed this pattern. Any apps that use an sqlite database bigger than about 200k will stutter and hang/"lag" very easily. sqlite seems to have a talent for pegging the backing store at 100% utilization (though actual bytes in/out from OS perspective is something like 50kbyte/sec due to mmc write amplification effects)
Nov 02 15:56:24 <pvanhoof> lcuk, btw thanks for getting the discussion back on track
Nov 02 15:56:25 <lcuk> bon appetite pvanhoof \o ta for spending the time
Nov 02 15:56:33 <pvanhoof> or at least trying
Nov 02 15:56:34 <pvanhoof> :)
Nov 02 15:56:58 <pvanhoof> ShadowJK, with WAL journaling that'll improve
Nov 02 15:57:05 <ShadowJK> I hope someone has figured out a way to make sqlite behave, because I haven't been able to think of anything good :-)
Nov 02 15:57:06 <pvanhoof> It's related to fsync behaviour of sqlite
Nov 02 15:57:17 <pvanhoof> ShadowJK, they have, it's called WAL
Nov 02 15:57:28 <pvanhoof> ShadowJK, http://www.sqlite.org/draft/wal.html
Nov 02 15:57:45 * pvanhoof hopes people will actually read this technical stuff this time :)
Nov 02 15:59:01 <ShadowJK> Reading every 5th line, it looks something like a user space reimplementation of nilfs2 filesystem. I like
Nov 02 15:59:32 <RST38h> lcuk: But only whenyou do it yourself
Nov 02 15:59:33 <pvanhoof> It's quite nice
Nov 02 16:00:02 <RST38h> ShadowJK: You fix software by adding another layer of software, in this case journaling :)
Nov 02 16:01:56 <ShadowJK> RST38h, http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2041#comic
Nov 02 16:02:00 <chem|st> RST38h: thats like installing colinux on top of windows ;)
Nov 02 16:02:19 <pupnik_> http://www.makershed.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MKPQ01&Click=37845
Nov 02 16:02:20 <DocScrutinizer> I just repeat: tracker is a nice complementary tool, but not meant to go core architecture. There MUST NOT be any app (except tracker maintenance ofc) that breaks when tracker isn't available
Nov 02 16:02:29 <pupnik_> [ pixel qi replacement display for 10.1" netbooks ]
Nov 02 16:02:49 <Lynoure> chem|st: Yes, it was me who mentioned my searches with amarok.
Nov 02 16:03:41 <Lynoure> chem|st: and then I got an ounce of wisdom and went back to my utterly unrelated code :)
Nov 02 16:04:22 <RST38h> Doc: No, tracker is a wonderful database solution that lets you establish ontological relations between all your personal data such as contacts, emails, im messages, video and audio metadata and much much more
Nov 02 16:04:55 <RST38h> Doc: You can query all this wealth of data using SQL-like language called SPARQL and it is always at your fingertips
Nov 02 16:04:56 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: maybe
Nov 02 16:05:08 <RST38h> Doc: "maybe" is not good enough. It is YES!
Nov 02 16:05:13 <RST38h> Or yes sir, rather
Nov 02 16:05:44 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: stfu, you got no clue about IT
Nov 02 16:06:09 <ShadowJK> For some reason firefox seems to refuse to want to load all js and css on xkcd for me today. It's kinda cool, I click a link, and the website appears like instantly. I never knew a Core 2 Q9550 could display a website in less than half a second :)
Nov 02 16:06:41 <Lynoure> ShadowJK: heh
Nov 02 16:06:51 <pvanhoof> RST38h, actually that's correct
Nov 02 16:06:59 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: you know, only Nokia knows about who's got a clue, and all those are hired as consultants. Are you hired as Nokia consultant?
Nov 02 16:07:29 <crashanddie> http://thomasjpitts.co.uk/hsx/2007/10/22/ymca-thumb-425x283.jpg
Nov 02 16:07:49 <RST38h> Doc: See, I got pvanhoof to agree, it was easy
Nov 02 16:07:57 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
Nov 02 16:07:57 <pvanhoof> RST38h, and what is also correct is that several ui use-cases require these ontological relationships
Nov 02 16:07:59 <RST38h> Doc: And you know how I know all these words?
Nov 02 16:08:12 <pvanhoof> RST38h, but i can't give you any of those ui use-cases, without first doing a legal check
Nov 02 16:08:39 <RST38h> Doc: I used them in scientific papers on database algebras, not unlike SPARQL :)
Nov 02 16:08:52 <pvanhoof> However, I can tell you that it goes way further than "files"
Nov 02 16:08:54 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Don't, it will endanger your NDA
Nov 02 16:09:01 <pvanhoof> Exactly
Nov 02 16:09:12 <RST38h> pvanhoof: I can actually list all these use-cases to you
Nov 02 16:09:23 <pvanhoof> go ahead, but i wont :)
Nov 02 16:09:27 <RST38h> Mostly because there are not many, and they are kinda well known
Nov 02 16:09:45 <RST38h> First, you probably want to do more data linking inside the address book
Nov 02 16:09:48 <pvanhoof> there are some new things being tried
Nov 02 16:09:53 <RST38h> Link people to emails and im logs for example
Nov 02 16:10:01 <pvanhoof> for example, yes
Nov 02 16:10:15 <RST38h> If you are crafty, you will link people to their addresses to their locations to images shot at these locations
Nov 02 16:10:23 <pvanhoof> yes
Nov 02 16:10:35 <RST38h> I started with address book because this is where most data is
Nov 02 16:10:41 <pvanhoof> things like that, but im not going into much more detail here
Nov 02 16:10:51 <pvanhoof> yes contacts is quite important for ues
Nov 02 16:11:09 <RST38h> Once you go to other apps, like camera, you get less data, but you can still link it to maps for example
Nov 02 16:11:14 <pvanhoof> files are actually far less important, but you insisted during the whole discussion to focus only on that
Nov 02 16:11:32 <pvanhoof> focus is on files = fremantle
Nov 02 16:11:33 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: tracker is a nice tool and inproving/augmenting it in capabilities and performance is nice
Nov 02 16:11:38 <Lynoure> or to time of shooting, which opens a whole range of things
Nov 02 16:11:41 <pvanhoof> That's not even very relevant in harmattan
Nov 02 16:11:57 <RST38h> You probably will end up doing some app store stuff
Nov 02 16:12:08 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: but it shouldn't obsolete file selection dialogs in all apps
Nov 02 16:12:12 <RST38h> Like guessing songs and directing to a store with more songs
Nov 02 16:12:28 <ShadowJK> Sometimes I wish there was a way to tell this fancy non-file-based stuff (I'm mostly thinking about the fremantle media player here) that "This folder contains well-organizer music with one album per folder. Each filename starts or ends with a number, this is the order of the song on the album".
Nov 02 16:12:29 * pvanhoof wonders when he said that we're obsoleting anything about file selection dialogs
Nov 02 16:12:39 <pvanhoof> we're not even very involved in UI
Nov 02 16:12:50 * Lynoure imagines "people who take photos where you take photos like these bands"
Nov 02 16:12:52 <pvanhoof> UI people come talk to us about how to implement their use-cases, of course
Nov 02 16:13:03 <RST38h> And now, once I displayed the uncanny knowledge of the ontology uses, I have to say...
Nov 02 16:13:23 <pvanhoof> And if they need a file dialog for their UI, which on a phone is kinda weird, but anyway, then sure
Nov 02 16:13:30 <RST38h> That most of this stuff is not useful to most ordinary people :)
Nov 02 16:13:52 <RST38h> Ok, it is useful but not at the price of device performance.
Nov 02 16:13:57 <pvanhoof> RST38h, ordinary people are indeed not going to write sparql queries in textboxes, no
Nov 02 16:14:18 <pvanhoof> but it doesn't come at any performance price. tracker-store sits in poll() when nothing is using it
Nov 02 16:14:26 <RST38h> pvanhoof: Actually most of the above use cases (outside of address book that could be handled without tracker) they also won't do
Nov 02 16:14:34 <DocScrutinizer> <pvanhoof> docScrutinizer, if you follow the open things happening in harmattan, you'll realize that tracker will be the information source #1 for almost all apps
Nov 02 16:14:41 <chem|st> pvanhoof: a link between an event a location and pictures taken and music played while that event
Nov 02 16:15:03 <Lynoure> chem|st: ooh.
Nov 02 16:15:09 <pvanhoof> chem|st, that will be possible with tracker, to store,yes, and to query
Nov 02 16:15:26 <pvanhoof> Whether any app will make and use such a query is a different question
Nov 02 16:15:51 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: that's what I have read as "more apps will have no other means than tracker to access files"
Nov 02 16:15:58 <ShadowJK> I watched a "normal" user struggle to transfer a file from their phone the other day. On the phone there was "Gallery", in which there was "Pictures", and there the picture to be transfered was to be found. Alas on the memory card, it was organized as "Images", and the picture was in there. It only took 15 minutes before they found the file, after rebooting both the phone (which wasn't involved at all since the memory card was in the PC) and the PC, and r
Nov 02 16:16:00 <chem|st> pvanhoof: how is it secured?
Nov 02 16:16:04 <ShadowJK> einserting the memory card a few times. Anyone talking about "ordinary people" should go and actually observe them :)
Nov 02 16:16:10 <pvanhoof> docScrutinizer, no that's not true of course. we're not replacing fopen()
Nov 02 16:16:21 <DocScrutinizer> ok then
Nov 02 16:16:27 <pvanhoof> chem|st, using the standard security framework for harmattan
Nov 02 16:16:49 <DocScrutinizer> though it's not exactly fopen() i'm talking about, more like osso-fileselector or whatever it's called
Nov 02 16:16:54 <pvanhoof> chem|st, in future we will probably have named graph support, which could enable us to allow certain apps access to certain data
Nov 02 16:17:33 <chem|st> pvanhoof: anything worth or just a doorbell without actual door
Nov 02 16:17:51 <chem|st> but doorstep...
Nov 02 16:17:54 <pvanhoof> chem|st, lemme check what is public about this first ..
Nov 02 16:18:01 <ShadowJK> Does funny mysterious things happen if you want to do NFS or CIFS and flash yourself a kernel with those built in (affecting security framework presumably)? :-)
Nov 02 16:18:29 <pvanhoof> chem|st, http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-platform-security
Nov 02 16:18:53 <Trewas> pvanhoof: you have mentioned harmattan many times, is this tracker stuff really only about harmattan or is it as central also in meego?
Nov 02 16:19:08 <pvanhoof> Trewas, also in meego. at least that's the plan
Nov 02 16:19:40 <pvanhoof> Many meego apps (made by nokia) will depend heavily on it
Nov 02 16:19:42 <chem|st> pvanhoof: ok so no security at all
Nov 02 16:19:50 <pvanhoof> chem|st, ?
Nov 02 16:20:38 <pvanhoof> chem|st, there's for example access control based on unix file permissions for direct-access and on dbus , we don't store on a AegisFS encrypted FS because that would slow things down a lot
Nov 02 16:20:39 <chem|st> pvanhoof: if tracker is called "part" of the platform we need some more than just credential storage and user management
Nov 02 16:21:03 <pvanhoof> chem|st, encrypted FS is too slow. We decided not to do that
Nov 02 16:21:10 <pvanhoof> In future we might have to
Nov 02 16:21:13 <chem|st> unix filepermissions are for users relevant not for root
Nov 02 16:21:24 <pvanhoof> But this kind of stuff, I "definitely" can't talk about
Nov 02 16:21:49 <chem|st> pvanhoof: with a chip-based encryption you would not save power but cpu usage
Nov 02 16:21:50 <pvanhoof> chem|st, well, getting root on harmattan will disable a bunch of things
Nov 02 16:21:57 <pvanhoof> they communicated this a long time ago on FOSDEM
Nov 02 16:22:21 <pvanhoof> chem|st, atm is the encrypted FS of that security-framework stuff a FUSE implementation
Nov 02 16:22:25 <SpeedEvil> encrypted filesystems go at over 5 meg a second
Nov 02 16:22:26 <pvanhoof> And that adds a few ms to each syscall
Nov 02 16:22:28 <pvanhoof> Not good
Nov 02 16:22:29 <SpeedEvil> on n900
Nov 02 16:22:32 <SpeedEvil> well over
Nov 02 16:22:45 <pvanhoof> SpeedEvil, bandwidth isn't the only problem
Nov 02 16:23:04 <pvanhoof> the biggest problem is that it's a FUSE FS, which adds a lot of overhead per syscall
Nov 02 16:23:14 <pvanhoof> So latency vs. bandwidth
Nov 02 16:23:36 <pvanhoof> sqlite is improving on how it uses read() and write() with WAL, of course. But still
Nov 02 16:23:39 <chem|st> SpeedEvil: I get about 28MB from a 1TB 5600rpm hdd what do you expect from a ssd?
Nov 02 16:23:48 <SpeedEvil> chem|st: on n900
Nov 02 16:24:01 <ShadowJK> If fuse latency is the biggest latency right now, I'd have to say sqlite has improved alot since fremantle, where emmc latency is like 5 seconds :-)
Nov 02 16:24:11 <pvanhoof> kinda strange that you guys want this on a encrypted fs :)
Nov 02 16:24:21 <pvanhoof> you are supposed to be the we want things to be open - guys
Nov 02 16:24:35 <chem|st> SpeedEvil: thats why I said SOC for the encryption
Nov 02 16:24:41 <pvanhoof> encrypted fs means: not accessible to you if you boot your device in a non-normal mode
Nov 02 16:24:52 <chem|st> pvanhoof: open and encrypted is not an oxymoron!
Nov 02 16:24:53 <pvanhoof> Like if you want root
Nov 02 16:24:54 <jacekowski> SpeedEvil: n900 hardware accelerated encryption can go at almost 10MB/s
Nov 02 16:25:11 <jacekowski> SpeedEvil: do you have 1.3?
Nov 02 16:25:12 <pvanhoof> chem|st, ok, read some more on the meego-security-framework
Nov 02 16:25:18 <pvanhoof> I can't really tell you much about it
Nov 02 16:25:20 <chem|st> pvanhoof: use standard tools and anyone can
Nov 02 16:25:33 <pvanhoof> again, read up on the security framework
Nov 02 16:25:38 <pvanhoof> it's afaik all public
Nov 02 16:25:44 <pvanhoof> but im not going to risk my ass :)
Nov 02 16:26:00 <chem|st> jacekowski: what is speed unencrypted?
Nov 02 16:26:02 <SpeedEvil> jacekowski: no
Nov 02 16:26:22 <jacekowski> chem|st: i mean just encryption hardware can pass 10MB/s
Nov 02 16:26:46 <jacekowski> chem|st: with minimal load on user side of things
Nov 02 16:26:58 <jacekowski> chem|st: and builtin emmc can go at 15MB/s if you're lucky
Nov 02 16:27:04 <chem|st> jacekowski: encryption hardware does pass 30MB/s if there is enough power and space
Nov 02 16:27:20 <pvanhoof> adding hardware isn't that easy
Nov 02 16:27:30 <chem|st> for the size of n900 I guess we get 15+ with descent powerconsumtion
Nov 02 16:27:33 <jacekowski> chem|st: i mean on n900
Nov 02 16:27:44 <jacekowski> chem|st: builtin encryption hardware
Nov 02 16:27:55 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: ooooh nice. security framework raising its ugly head. Getting root is dropping things instead of making then available. I have to say I hate harmattan even now
Nov 02 16:27:56 <ShadowJK> jacekowski, what's that thing called again, securit dma? Or is that what samsung calls it
Nov 02 16:28:06 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: m-shield
Nov 02 16:28:11 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: see?? ^^^^
Nov 02 16:28:13 <pvanhoof> docScrutinizer, don't look at me
Nov 02 16:28:14 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: i mean it's part of m-shield
Nov 02 16:28:25 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: I don't
Nov 02 16:28:26 <chem|st> jacekowski: I know... but with different hardware like that add another 100 bucks, I would buy it anytime
Nov 02 16:28:29 <pvanhoof> docScrutinizer, im one of the guys helping you, so please be pissed at other people
Nov 02 16:28:45 <DocScrutinizer> pvanhoof: I'm not pissed at you
Nov 02 16:29:00 <pvanhoof> like the people who make cloud services, and contracts that require device vendors to have this stuff
Nov 02 16:29:21 <pvanhoof> or do you think that you own the data about yourself that they collect ?
Nov 02 16:30:30 <chem|st> pvanhoof: you are talking about facebook icq and apple?
Nov 02 16:30:42 <pvanhoof> no idea
Nov 02 16:30:43 <chem|st> or google... amazon...
Nov 02 16:30:48 <pvanhoof> no idea
Nov 02 16:30:56 <pvanhoof> gtg, food
Nov 02 16:31:13 <ShadowJK> enjoy your food, thanks for the chat :-)
Nov 02 16:31:16 <chem|st> they all own your data as long as the local law does not forbid it
Nov 02 16:31:28 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: that's what I always told you. Security framework means you have to drop all secure tasks from memory and clean out, befora a single non-trusted app (like root) is started. Now tell me, who owns my device wih harmattan. And please tell me security framework is for our benefit
Nov 02 16:32:10 <pvanhoof> docScrutinizer, it's not that blackwhite
Nov 02 16:32:13 <pvanhoof> gtg bye
Nov 02 16:32:41 <slonopotamus> ~pr1.3
Nov 02 16:32:41 <infobot> from memory, pr1.3 is the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.3 -- see ~flashing for how to update
Nov 02 16:32:57 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer: well... root like fremantle could lock all this stuff and su could keep it open !?
Nov 02 16:33:22 <chem|st> one requires a password one doesn't
Nov 02 16:33:40 <slonopotamus> ~flashing
Nov 02 16:33:41 <infobot> i heard flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Nov 02 16:33:50 <DocScrutinizer> my su requires root password :-P
Nov 02 16:34:00 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, from reading the security framework stuff along time ago, I got the impression that you'd be mostly fine if you immediately switched to "unsecure" mode the moment you got it, so that you don't lose any data when you do want to do anything except basic stuff
Nov 02 16:34:18 <slonopotamus> ...
Nov 02 16:34:24 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: ACK
Nov 02 16:34:35 <slonopotamus> that page DOES say that one should try dist-upgrade
Nov 02 16:35:02 <ShadowJK> and then I'll just keep storing my passwords in a plaintext file inside a .tar file encrypted with "openssl bf -e" and a single long password I actually remember, and manually uncompressing it whenever I need it ;-)
Nov 02 16:35:44 <DocScrutinizer> that's about true security, not about "Trusted" though
Nov 02 16:36:17 <ShadowJK> (yes there are utilities for this in the repos, but it seems nobody who made them considered what I want to do, 'search', so I just have a plaintext file and /usr/bin/grep instead)
Nov 02 16:38:20 <chem|st> ShadowJK: I screwed my loop.aes file and am glad to have set some passwords by hand just in case ;)
Nov 02 16:38:24 <alterego> Weird, I wonder why QIODevice is reading more bytes than I want it to, it's causing a segfault ..
Nov 02 16:39:24 <ShadowJK> chem|st, I have loop.aes on my server, I am still amazed to this day that it has survived 2 physical machines and ~4 years :)
Nov 02 16:39:47 <ShadowJK> A little annoyance is that I have to log in over ssh and mount it manually each reboot..
Nov 02 17:17:09 <internetishard> how do you make it connect automatically to only the cell network and ONE wifi connection (instead of any)
Nov 02 17:18:04 <tobis87> I have read in the irclog, there was talk on hardware encryption? I'm sad to say but hw accel. is broken on the n900: "It might be also an OMAP silicon bug... I do not have really possibility anymore to spend a time on that. AES support was never promised and tested on the device." The best alternative is to use twofish instead of aes for encryption.
Nov 02 17:20:22 <tobis87> The n900 does not wake up from offmode anymore:" it is something related to 'off' mode, when device goes to deep sleep. Some configuration might be lost." At least sha1-md5 seems to work.
Nov 02 17:24:29 <fcrochik> hi.... has anybody had problems with dns/wifi after pr1.3? I can connect but it seems that getting the dns addresses is not working
Nov 02 17:27:06 <tobis87> fcrochik: Have you tried to ping the host?
Nov 02 17:27:31 <fcrochik> tobis87:  what host?
Nov 02 17:28:16 <tobis87> Which you cannot connect to.
Nov 02 17:29:18 <fcrochik> tobis87: I can ping ip addresses.... the issue is resolving names....it is not working on two different wifi nets
Nov 02 17:30:25 <tobis87> ok, don't know how the n900 resolves dns.
Nov 02 17:32:35 <tobis87> Oh, it uses dnsmasq
Nov 02 17:33:02 <tobis87> check the resolv.conf* files in /var/run/
Nov 02 17:33:55 <fcrochik> tobis87: for me to test I will have to disconnect....what should I look for?
Nov 02 17:35:17 <tobis87> Just cat the files, it should show which dns server is used, *.wlan0, *.ppp0...
Nov 02 17:35:59 <fcrochik> tobis87: I will check.... thanks
Nov 02 17:37:35 <tobis87> Why does the n900 use dnsmasq, anyway?
Nov 02 17:37:51 <LjL> i use dnsmasq, it's handy
Nov 02 17:39:09 <trumee> hmm. Ctrl + Right arrow key doesnt hop to the next input field in microb. It used to work in PR1.2
Nov 02 17:39:37 <slonopotamus> crappy microb doesn't support mailto: urls
Nov 02 17:40:08 <tobis87> Ok, for ICS it might be handy. Used it also for some time, however I now use bind9 on my pc. The provider fuck to much around with dns recently.
Nov 02 17:41:44 <Noobmonk3y> anyone around who could look at some troublesome QT for me please?
Nov 02 17:41:50 <RST38h> <yawn>
Nov 02 17:42:00 * Noobmonk3y blinks
Nov 02 17:43:16 <Noobmonk3y> MohammadAG: ? :)
Nov 02 17:43:25 <Noobmonk3y> ~mohammadAG
Nov 02 17:43:25 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, mohammadag is your father
Nov 02 17:43:34 * MohammadAG slaps Noobmonk3y 
Nov 02 17:43:34 <Noobmonk3y> ~noobmonk3y
Nov 02 17:43:34 <infobot> you are probably a huge trout most of the time, other times he can be a slimey mackerel..... a sardine
Nov 02 17:43:40 <Noobmonk3y> yay!
Nov 02 17:43:43 <Noobmonk3y> Mousey: http://pastebin.com/E81QMicZ
Nov 02 17:43:45 <Noobmonk3y> meh
Nov 02 17:43:49 <Noobmonk3y> MohammadAG: http://pastebin.com/E81QMicZ, sorry Mousey
Nov 02 17:44:06 <Noobmonk3y> being my father MohammadAG , you should help me with my qt!
Nov 02 17:44:22 <Aranel> repos down again?
Nov 02 17:44:24 <MohammadAG> more of a "I AM YOUR FATHER" thingy :P
Nov 02 17:44:28 <Noobmonk3y> :P
Nov 02 17:44:35 <MohammadAG> but infobot hates caps
Nov 02 17:44:40 <Noobmonk3y> Aranel, worked for me a few mins ago
Nov 02 17:45:03 <Noobmonk3y> ~frals
Nov 02 17:45:03 <infobot> from memory, frals is a large smelly trout, or the developer of fMMS
Nov 02 17:45:07 <Noobmonk3y> w00p!
Nov 02 17:45:09 <Noobmonk3y> so accurate
Nov 02 17:45:19 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, so what's wrong with it?
Nov 02 17:45:38 <Noobmonk3y> well, the output to screen doesnt happen, tried qlabel, q textbrowser, tried append, set text etc........
Nov 02 17:45:45 <Noobmonk3y> outputs to debug fine :|
Nov 02 17:45:49 <Aranel> Noobmonk3y: Resolving host timed out: downloads.maemo.nokia.com :|
Nov 02 17:46:00 <Noobmonk3y> Aranel: :|, let me try again
Nov 02 17:46:10 <Aranel> Noobmonk3y: can you reach this page over your browser?
Nov 02 17:46:39 <Noobmonk3y> page down doesnt mean repos down though
Nov 02 17:47:01 <Aranel> Noobmonk3y: Failed to fetch https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/002/./libgles1_0.20100611.6+0m5_armel.deb  Resolving host timed out: downloads.maemo.nokia.com
Nov 02 17:47:08 <Aranel> Noobmonk3y: apt-get install libgles* output.
Nov 02 17:47:12 <Noobmonk3y> same here
Nov 02 17:47:12 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, you do realize QTextBrowser is an HTML browser, so setting text to that will give you one line
Nov 02 17:47:13 <tobis87> You don't have permission to access "http://downloads.maemo.nokia.com/" on this server.
Nov 02 17:47:30 <Noobmonk3y> MohammadAG: , not giving me anything, but anyway, didnt work with a wrapped label
Nov 02 17:47:45 <Aranel> yay now its working again, Get:1 https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com ./ libgles1 0.20100611.6+0m5 [5474B]
Nov 02 17:47:47 <Noobmonk3y> Aranel: yes, not working
Nov 02 17:47:50 <Noobmonk3y> lols
Nov 02 17:47:53 <Noobmonk3y> must be up n down
Nov 02 17:48:08 <Aranel> lol they're just making fun of us.
Nov 02 17:48:19 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, first of all, add this to the args | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'
Nov 02 17:48:32 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 17:49:14 <lcuk> MohammadAG, can you use sed to replace all of the files on frals computer with "i am a trout!" ?
Nov 02 17:49:24 * RST38h shovels a bit more powder onto the rumor mill: http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/1525/z500.jpg
Nov 02 17:49:57 <Noobmonk3y> lol lcuk
Nov 02 17:50:18 <Noobmonk3y> evening :)
Nov 02 17:50:23 <MohammadAG> for files in `find .`; do sed -i 's/*/i\ am\ a\ trout!/g'; done?
Nov 02 17:50:31 <RST38h> http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4783/271316.jpg
Nov 02 17:50:35 <MohammadAG> for files in `find .`; do sed -i 's/*/i\ am\ a\ trout!/g' $files; done?
Nov 02 17:50:42 <Noobmonk3y> old news RST38h
Nov 02 17:50:44 <lcuk> MohammadAG, can you just test that on your machine first :P
Nov 02 17:50:48 <MohammadAG> nobody try that, it can get ugly
Nov 02 17:51:01 <MohammadAG> lcuk, sure
Nov 02 17:51:04 <Noobmonk3y> lol MohammadAG Make output: "Filesystem                Size      Used Available Use% Mounted on
Nov 02 17:51:04 * MohammadAG starts chroot
Nov 02 17:51:04 <Noobmonk3y> df: | sed 's/$/\<br\>/': can't find mount point
Nov 02 17:51:07 <MohammadAG> :P
Nov 02 17:51:15 <Noobmonk3y> i think i need to do it in reverse
Nov 02 17:51:29 <i_am_a_trout> well, it kinda worked
Nov 02 17:51:30 <johnsq> Hi
Nov 02 17:51:37 * Noobmonk3y thinks i_am_a_trout is actually a sardine in disguise
Nov 02 17:52:03 <RST38h> lcuk: yum is yum
Nov 02 17:52:04 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, what line did you use in the code
Nov 02 17:52:15 <lcuk> bbl \o
Nov 02 17:52:17 <MohammadAG> lcuk, you do realize the server will disallow you from changing nicks now: P
Nov 02 17:52:19 <Noobmonk3y> arguments << "| sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'";
Nov 02 17:52:21 <MohammadAG> :P*
Nov 02 17:52:46 <MohammadAG> arguments << "-h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'"; ?
Nov 02 17:54:15 <Noobmonk3y> anyway MohammadAG , that didnt work, but still nothing on a qlabel or textbrowser
Nov 02 17:56:26 <Noobmonk3y> so what should i used in QT to display console output? hmmmmmmmm
Nov 02 17:58:20 <johnsq> Noobmonk3y: vte
Nov 02 17:58:46 <Noobmonk3y> vte?
Nov 02 17:59:07 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, got it working
Nov 02 17:59:10 <johnsq> virtual terminal emulator
Nov 02 17:59:18 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, libvte4
Nov 02 17:59:22 <Noobmonk3y> MohammadAG: ?aghhhhhhhhh what hey? who, where, when, why? eh?
Nov 02 17:59:33 <Noobmonk3y> MohammadAG: ?
Nov 02 17:59:38 <tobis87> find . | while read $i; do sed -i 's/*/i\ am\ a\ trout!/g' $i; done
Nov 02 17:59:53 <MohammadAG> I used a QString muhahaha
Nov 02 18:00:02 <Noobmonk3y> ok, still not helping me!
Nov 02 18:00:11 <MohammadAG>                  QString output = myProcess->readAllStandardOutput();
Nov 02 18:00:11 <MohammadAG>                  ui->textBrowser->setText(output);
Nov 02 18:00:24 <Noobmonk3y> darn you for being brainy!
Nov 02 18:00:27 <Noobmonk3y> and thank you!
Nov 02 18:00:33 <MohammadAG> :P
Nov 02 18:02:12 * Noobmonk3y cuddles MohammadAG !!! yay! - working!!!
Nov 02 18:02:22 <MohammadAG> with proper line breaks?
Nov 02 18:02:26 <Noobmonk3y> i swear i tried that, but oh well lol! probably missed a ';'
Nov 02 18:02:29 <Noobmonk3y> :P
Nov 02 18:02:34 <Noobmonk3y> no not yet!
Nov 02 18:02:40 <Noobmonk3y> the line breaks come next!
Nov 02 18:03:23 <MohammadAG> | sed 's/$/\<br\>/ is what you need, but QProcess isn't passing that right...
Nov 02 18:03:41 <Noobmonk3y> nope, its erroring :P
Nov 02 18:03:54 <crashanddie> DocScrutinizer: "Take-out pizza chain hiring. Aged over 18, no experience required. Uniform provided. Salary: $31,000 an hour."
Nov 02 18:04:03 * MohammadAG pokes alterego :P
Nov 02 18:04:26 * MohammadAG looks confused
Nov 02 18:04:28 <MohammadAG> 31k?
Nov 02 18:04:31 * Noobmonk3y lols
Nov 02 18:04:49 <MohammadAG> The Sims?
Nov 02 18:05:16 <crashanddie> "In another of the promotions, anyone born on September 30 this year -- the actual date the first Domino's opened in Japan -- will receive a free pizza on their birthday until they turn 25."
Nov 02 18:06:10 <DocScrutinizer51> crashanddie: I knew there have to be better jobs than EE/sytem-architect
Nov 02 18:06:37 <crashanddie> "A 15-month-old baby girl survived a fall from a seventh-floor apartment in Paris almost unscathed after bouncing off a cafe awning and into the arms of a passer-by, police said on Tuesday."
Nov 02 18:06:40 <Noobmonk3y> MohammadAG: i wonder if i have torun sed first, so kinda in reverse with qtprocess?
Nov 02 18:06:48 <Noobmonk3y> ie, Sed , then df -h
Nov 02 18:06:59 <MohammadAG> why?
Nov 02 18:07:12 <Noobmonk3y> cos it doesnt run it like terminal
Nov 02 18:07:18 <Noobmonk3y> the docs suggest it kinda works in reverse
Nov 02 18:07:28 <crashanddie> wth
Nov 02 18:07:30 <Noobmonk3y> ie, do this to that
Nov 02 18:07:37 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: can't be
Nov 02 18:07:40 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: link?
Nov 02 18:07:45 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: this is qt we are talking about!
Nov 02 18:07:58 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: well, I know Qt is fucked up, but still
Nov 02 18:08:16 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: http://pastebin.com/nh5uN2QV
Nov 02 18:08:21 <Noobmonk3y> line 3 & 4
Nov 02 18:08:32 <Noobmonk3y> (i took the | out, but stil l the same
Nov 02 18:08:45 <Noobmonk3y> df -h(as an argument) works fine
Nov 02 18:10:34 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: because it needs to be the same argument
Nov 02 18:10:42 <vnepo> wassup
Nov 02 18:10:58 <Noobmonk3y> tried that :|, will do again though
Nov 02 18:11:12 <crashanddie> arguments << "df -h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'"
Nov 02 18:11:16 <Noobmonk3y> like this? - arguments << "-h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'";
Nov 02 18:12:06 <crashanddie> or really dirty:
Nov 02 18:12:11 <crashanddie> QString = "echo"
Nov 02 18:12:13 <crashanddie> err
Nov 02 18:12:18 <crashanddie> QString program = "echo";
Nov 02 18:12:23 <Noobmonk3y> lol!
Nov 02 18:12:33 <Noobmonk3y> df iinvalid option error on teh previous
Nov 02 18:12:53 <crashanddie> QStringList arguments; arguments << "$(df -h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/')"
Nov 02 18:13:39 <crashanddie> that'll never work
Nov 02 18:13:48 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 18:13:50 <Noobmonk3y> trying it :P
Nov 02 18:13:55 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: I'm pretty sure that Qt executes those directly, and doesn't pass through bash or whatever
Nov 02 18:14:05 <Noobmonk3y> yeah, but reads back df -h fine
Nov 02 18:14:18 <Noobmonk3y> and your right, didnt work :p
Nov 02 18:14:38 <Noobmonk3y> i wonder if i can run sed separatly against a variable?
Nov 02 18:14:48 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: well, you could
Nov 02 18:14:57 <Noobmonk3y> again, dirty way round :P
Nov 02 18:14:59 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: run sed and pass the output of df as a parameter
Nov 02 18:15:07 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: or, there is a very, very dirty way around
Nov 02 18:15:11 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 18:15:20 <Noobmonk3y> the conversation in this place always gets dirty ;)
Nov 02 18:15:55 <Noobmonk3y> hmmm, the way should work, just need to figure out where to put the variable in the argument lol
Nov 02 18:15:57 <crashanddie> want to hear it?
Nov 02 18:16:03 <Noobmonk3y> up for hearing it!
Nov 02 18:16:44 * MohammadAG writes output to a file then reads that
Nov 02 18:16:57 <MohammadAG> easier than the QProcess crap
Nov 02 18:16:57 <MohammadAG> well, for sed anyways
Nov 02 18:17:04 <Noobmonk3y> hmmm, a bit to dirty as i'll be doing it a lot
Nov 02 18:17:15 <crashanddie> QString program = "bash"; QStringList arguments; arguments << "-c"; arguments << "df -h"; arguments << " | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'";
Nov 02 18:17:20 <Noobmonk3y> wow!
Nov 02 18:17:27 <MohammadAG> epic code ^
Nov 02 18:17:28 <Noobmonk3y> worth trying though lol
Nov 02 18:17:54 <crashanddie> you might need to enclose that in quotes though, no idea
Nov 02 18:18:14 <RST38h> a new consortium of some 24 organizations awkwardly called SYMBEOSE: "Symbian - the Embedded Operating System for Europe."
Nov 02 18:18:19 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: trying it!
Nov 02 18:18:28 <Noobmonk3y> and MohammadAG  Yes, yes yes!
Nov 02 18:18:31 <MohammadAG> crashanddie, shouldn't it be ash on the N900?
Nov 02 18:18:34 <Noobmonk3y> uber epic
Nov 02 18:18:53 <Noobmonk3y> Make failed: "No such file or directory"
Nov 02 18:18:55 <crashanddie> MohammadAG: oh, this is meant to run on an N900? Figures, I'm in #maemo
Nov 02 18:18:56 <Noobmonk3y> :p
Nov 02 18:18:59 <Noobmonk3y> lol!
Nov 02 18:19:10 <Noobmonk3y> and yes, on the n900! :)
Nov 02 18:19:13 <Macer> wow. was using a cliq for a whie
Nov 02 18:19:17 <crashanddie> try with ash then
Nov 02 18:19:24 <Macer> i missed my n900 lol
Nov 02 18:19:24 <Noobmonk3y> ash?
Nov 02 18:19:24 <jacekowski> MohammadAG: you have pr1.3?
Nov 02 18:19:29 <jacekowski> do *
Nov 02 18:19:30 <crashanddie> MohammadAG knows the details, you ask him
Nov 02 18:19:44 <Noobmonk3y> MohammadAG: oh almight father-like one! lol ash?
Nov 02 18:19:47 <Macer> i dont know what 1.3 really gave everybody
Nov 02 18:19:57 <jacekowski> Macer: new bugs
Nov 02 18:19:57 <Macer> ovi and qt?
Nov 02 18:20:06 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, busybox, no bash by default
Nov 02 18:20:12 <Noobmonk3y> 1.3 fine for me, and destroyed healthcheck lol
Nov 02 18:20:13 <MohammadAG> jacekowski, sadly, yes
Nov 02 18:20:19 <Macer> wasnt that already in 1.3?
Nov 02 18:20:21 <Noobmonk3y> so what do i put in the command?
Nov 02 18:20:23 <MohammadAG> Qt has bugs in 1.3
Nov 02 18:20:26 <Macer> er.... 1.2
Nov 02 18:20:42 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, replace bash with ash in crashanddie's code
Nov 02 18:20:45 <crashanddie> QString program = "sh"; QStringList arguments; arguments << "-c"; arguments << "\"df -h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'\"";
Nov 02 18:20:47 <Noobmonk3y> woah, erm, 'ash' worked, didn't sort it at all, but it worked
Nov 02 18:20:48 <MohammadAG> though... it didn't work for me :P
Nov 02 18:20:59 <crashanddie> QString program = "ash"; QStringList arguments; arguments << "-c"; arguments << "\"df -h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'\"";
Nov 02 18:21:03 <Noobmonk3y> it's given output lol
Nov 02 18:23:28 <Noobmonk3y> i'm assuming the sed stuff is meant to tidy it up MohammadAG ?
Nov 02 18:23:50 <MohammadAG> no, it's meant to add <br> to each line
Nov 02 18:23:58 <Noobmonk3y> oh lol
Nov 02 18:24:03 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: are you getting output now?
Nov 02 18:24:14 <Noobmonk3y> getting out put as i did before, but it worked :)
Nov 02 18:24:39 <Noobmonk3y> SO PRETTY IMPRESSED!
Nov 02 18:24:42 <Noobmonk3y> darn caps
Nov 02 18:25:05 <MohammadAG> hmm, not working here lol
Nov 02 18:25:10 * MohammadAG ignores
Nov 02 18:25:11 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 18:25:34 <crashanddie> how do you want to sort it?
Nov 02 18:26:37 <Noobmonk3y> right i need a chinese
Nov 02 18:26:39 <Noobmonk3y> brb
Nov 02 18:26:49 <crashanddie> dick
Nov 02 18:26:54 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 18:26:58 <Bluewind> hey guys something just broke in my device and when I disassembled it I found the part on the left in the middle of that red circle. what's that thing and where should I put it? http://paste.xinu.at/73U/
Nov 02 18:27:13 <Noobmonk3y> lol!!!
Nov 02 18:27:27 <Noobmonk3y> nice pic btw
Nov 02 18:27:29 <Bluewind> it blocked the stylus...
Nov 02 18:27:53 <Noobmonk3y> nice tripod stand too, looks like mine :p
Nov 02 18:28:35 <Bluewind> velbon sherpa 435, but I'd like to fix my device ;)
Nov 02 18:28:38 * MohammadAG pokes DocScrutinizer/DocScrutinizer51
Nov 02 18:28:55 <Noobmonk3y> ahhh it is my tripod, well the same type ;)
Nov 02 18:29:04 <Noobmonk3y> damn i'm sad
Nov 02 18:29:05 <MohammadAG> lol
Nov 02 18:29:06 <Noobmonk3y> back in a bit
Nov 02 18:29:20 <MohammadAG> Bluewind, DocScrutinizer disassembled his device, he might be able to help
Nov 02 18:29:40 <Bluewind> thx
Nov 02 18:31:42 <cehteh> just leave that part out, the stylus may fall of, but well :)
Nov 02 18:32:01 <jacekowski> MohammadAG: i need copy of original pr1.3 fmtxd
Nov 02 18:32:37 <Bluewind> cehteh: so that thing just holds the stylus?
Nov 02 18:33:16 <Bluewind> MohammadAG: thx those pics help. I think I found it
Nov 02 18:33:45 <cehteh> Bluewind: yeah i think its the spring which holds the stylus
Nov 02 18:34:08 <Bluewind> ok yeah it is
Nov 02 18:34:36 <cehteh> well looks simple to me to put back in place isnt it?
Nov 02 18:34:43 <Bluewind> there is a little bit of black plasitc in the circle I drew. that's where the hole of the thing should be
Nov 02 18:34:43 <cehteh> i never disassembled my device :P
Nov 02 18:34:53 <Macer> geez
Nov 02 18:35:37 <Bluewind> nokia could have made that plastic bigger...
Nov 02 18:36:01 <cehteh> unibody n900's :)
Nov 02 18:40:50 <DocScrutinizer51> Bluewind: it actually just makes stylus sliding a little nicer. holding stylus is yet another bit at tip of stylus. Ask lcuk as it seems he had similar problems
Nov 02 18:42:05 <Noobmonk3y> meh, chinese is closed on tuesdays
Nov 02 18:42:07 <Noobmonk3y> bahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Nov 02 18:48:42 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: how do you need to sort the df output?
Nov 02 18:49:08 <Noobmonk3y> well, was just going to tidy it up in a straight line, theoretically i should read each bit and tidy it up into a list though
Nov 02 18:49:34 <Bluewind> DocScrutinizer51: well for now I just removed it
Nov 02 18:49:50 <DocScrutinizer51> that's ok I guess
Nov 02 18:50:28 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: if you're just going to process everything individually, you're better off not using sed in the first place
Nov 02 18:50:54 <Noobmonk3y> yeah, thinking just reading it into a variable, then ripping it apart
Nov 02 18:51:00 <Noobmonk3y> but displaying it was my first challenge!
Nov 02 18:56:55 <tobis87> Epic dnssec test site: http://test.dnssec-or-not.org/ http://i54.tinypic.com/28r3713.jpg
Nov 02 18:57:53 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: QString output = QString(myprocess.readAllStandardOutput()); QStringList outputLines = output.split("\n", QString::SkipEmptyParts);
Nov 02 18:58:07 <Noobmonk3y> oooooooooooo
Nov 02 18:58:19 <Noobmonk3y> gimme 2 mins, scoffing my face, will test it :)
Nov 02 19:00:20 <MohammadAG51> hey sjgadsby
Nov 02 19:00:30 <sjgadsby> Hi, MohammadAG51!
Nov 02 19:01:56 <sjgadsby> MohammadAG51: I'm looking forward to where the community updates for Maemo 5 might lead. Thank you for working on that project. It's a wonderful thing that you're doing.
Nov 02 19:03:42 <orospakr> Hi! I'm very happy with the ACM/PPP tethering mode ("PC Suite" mode) that I can use with NetworkManager, but I think that NAT'ed tethering -- if convenient to turn on -- using usb0 would also be handy.  Is there some means of doing that?
Nov 02 19:04:17 <orospakr> I suspect that I'd need the power-kernel for iptables, at the least.
Nov 02 19:04:24 <Bluewind> ok reassembled, stylus works and it still boots. thx MohammadAG51, DocScrutinizer51
Nov 02 19:06:41 <dolp> i need a tester
Nov 02 19:07:21 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: QStringListIterator listIter(outputLines); while (listIter.hasNext()) { QStringList lineFields = listIter.next().split("\t", QString::SkipEmptyParts); QStringListIterator fieldIter(lineFields); while (fieldIter.hasNext()) { /* iterating over each field! */ } }
Nov 02 19:07:22 <Noobmonk3y> w000p
Nov 02 19:07:27 <Noobmonk3y> woah
Nov 02 19:07:40 <Noobmonk3y> Crash, have you gone into uber geek mode? (Not that i'm not thankful!)
Nov 02 19:08:12 <crashanddie> well, Qt is easy
Nov 02 19:08:17 <crashanddie> and it's the first time I'm using it :)
Nov 02 19:08:47 <MohammadAG51> your welcome sjgadsby :)
Nov 02 19:08:52 <MohammadAG51> and Bluewind
Nov 02 19:09:09 <MohammadAG51> Noobmonk3y, crashanddie has always been a coder, a well hidden one :P
Nov 02 19:09:23 <Noobmonk3y> ahhh
Nov 02 19:09:25 * Noobmonk3y likes it
Nov 02 19:09:37 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 19:09:38 <Noobmonk3y> ok
Nov 02 19:09:41 <Noobmonk3y> right,
Nov 02 19:09:45 <Noobmonk3y> me needs to learn
Nov 02 19:09:48 <Noobmonk3y> qlistiterator is new to me
Nov 02 19:09:53 <Noobmonk3y> so i assume i need an include
Nov 02 19:10:31 <Noobmonk3y>  #include <QStringList>
Nov 02 19:10:33 <Noobmonk3y> tadaaaaaaaaaa
Nov 02 19:11:39 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: I'm a C++ dev by day
Nov 02 19:11:45 <Noobmonk3y> ahhh cool!
Nov 02 19:11:46 <dolp> Noobmonk3y: i just chose you to be my tester! :D
Nov 02 19:11:50 <crashanddie> I code any language I can get my hands on :)
Nov 02 19:11:56 * Noobmonk3y is an IT advisor by day, learning every day about IT :) hehe
Nov 02 19:11:57 <crashanddie> and when I can be bothered to do so
Nov 02 19:12:12 <dolp> crashanddie: brainfuck is nice.. learn it
Nov 02 19:12:22 <crashanddie> brainfuck is old
Nov 02 19:12:23 <Noobmonk3y> ok question
Nov 02 19:12:32 <Noobmonk3y> what variable needs to go into the outputlines?
Nov 02 19:12:39 <Noobmonk3y> (what type?)
Nov 02 19:13:09 <Noobmonk3y> wb Mo
Nov 02 19:13:44 <MohammadAG> grr
Nov 02 19:13:47 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: scroll up
Nov 02 19:14:14 <Noobmonk3y> doh!
Nov 02 19:14:16 <MohammadAG> what use is a cloak when your IP shows up
Nov 02 19:16:08 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 19:16:27 * Noobmonk3y hacks MohammadAG's cloak
Nov 02 19:16:29 <crashanddie> [-]>[-]<>++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<.>+++[<+++>-]<++.---.++++.>+++++++++[<---    ------>-]<+.>+++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<--------.>+++[<+++>-]<+.>+++++++++[<---    ------>-]<--.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.>+++++[<+++++>-]<---.>++++[<---->-]<--    .>++++[<++++>-]<--.----.--.>+++[<--->-]<+.
Nov 02 19:16:34 <crashanddie> dolp: [-]>[-]<>++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<.>+++[<+++>-]<++.---.++++.>+++++++++[<--------->-]<+.>+++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<--------.>+++[<+++>-]<+.>+++++++++[<--------->-]<--.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.>+++++[<+++++>-]<---.>++++[<---->-]<--.>++++[<++++>-]<--.----.--.>+++[<--->-]<+.
Nov 02 19:16:54 <BCMM> if you want to be identified to services before joining, just use your nickserv password as a server password
Nov 02 19:17:08 <BCMM> freenode-specific feature
Nov 02 19:17:12 <crashanddie> isn't it username:password?
Nov 02 19:17:22 <MohammadAG> oh nice, didn't know that
Nov 02 19:17:44 <BCMM> it is not documented enough imho
Nov 02 19:18:27 <BCMM> especially with all those channels you want to autojoin, but aren't open to unregistered users
Nov 02 19:18:41 <MohammadAG51> BCMM, didn't work
Nov 02 19:18:58 <BCMM> MohammadAG: hmm, let me look at my own settings
Nov 02 19:19:43 <Noobmonk3y> ok, output is working
Nov 02 19:19:53 <Noobmonk3y> so gonna use append in the *codey bit*
Nov 02 19:20:03 <BCMM> MohammadAG: yeah, that's what i'm doing
Nov 02 19:20:07 <Noobmonk3y> while (fieldIter.hasNext()) {
Nov 02 19:20:07 <Noobmonk3y>                           ui->textBrowser->append(output);
Nov 02 19:20:08 <Noobmonk3y>                       }
Nov 02 19:20:11 <Noobmonk3y> should work i think!
Nov 02 19:20:27 <crashanddie> noo
Nov 02 19:20:33 <Noobmonk3y> no?
Nov 02 19:20:36 <BCMM> i have my pass as the server pass, and nothing set up to talk to nickserv
Nov 02 19:20:36 <crashanddie> nope
Nov 02 19:20:40 <Noobmonk3y> surely it is going through the loop?
Nov 02 19:20:53 <crashanddie> yeah, but output contains the full df -h output
Nov 02 19:20:57 <Noobmonk3y> ohhhhhhhhhhhh
Nov 02 19:21:07 <crashanddie> so it would be fieldIter.next()
Nov 02 19:21:15 <crashanddie> instead of output
Nov 02 19:21:17 <Noobmonk3y> So just display linefields?
Nov 02 19:21:19 <MohammadAG> BCMM, without your username first?
Nov 02 19:21:40 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG51: use a decent irc client with proper auto-authentication to nickserv, done priot to joining any channels! N00b!
Nov 02 19:21:43 <BCMM> MohammadAG: apparently
Nov 02 19:22:06 <MohammadAG> DocScrutinizer, it is done prior to joining, but the server's laggy
Nov 02 19:22:11 <MohammadAG> as always (freenode)
Nov 02 19:22:18 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: that isn't really possible
Nov 02 19:22:38 * MohammadAG uses a loadfile
Nov 02 19:22:54 <DocScrutinizer> BCMM: it is, e.g by passing your credentials as server password - at least on freenode
Nov 02 19:22:56 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: the method for working out when nickserv has responded would need to be network-specific
Nov 02 19:23:20 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: that's exactly what i'm trying to help him do
Nov 02 19:24:36 <BCMM> what isn't possible is identify, wait for nickserv to respond, then autojoin
Nov 02 19:24:52 <DocScrutinizer> BCMM: MohammadAG51 actually I think it's "nick:pw" for server password
Nov 02 19:26:23 <DocScrutinizer> BCMM: well, if NS is friggin lazy then you run into problems. But not if all your cmds are delayed in the internets by same lag
Nov 02 19:26:39 <BCMM> (without coding network-specific stuff to decode nickserv's response)
Nov 02 19:26:50 * Noobmonk3y hmmmmmmmmms
Nov 02 19:26:56 <MohammadAG51> sorta works, but only with some servers
Nov 02 19:27:12 <MohammadAG51> not on barjaval.freenode.net
Nov 02 19:27:16 <MohammadAG51> or what's its name
Nov 02 19:27:20 <DocScrutinizer> /ns id paswd nick; sleep 2; /join bla; /join blub;
Nov 02 19:27:54 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: i'm still a bit lost, but not for lack of trying. It gets the output, removes empty bits, goes through each line and tab's it out nicely.......
Nov 02 19:27:58 <Noobmonk3y> (is my assumption)
Nov 02 19:28:10 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: can you paste the code?
Nov 02 19:28:24 <MohammadAG51> DocScrutinizer, how do I add a user to znc?
Nov 02 19:28:34 <DocScrutinizer> znc -c
Nov 02 19:28:36 <DocScrutinizer> iirc
Nov 02 19:28:40 <pupnik>   "If an old and distinguished scientist tells you 'you *can* do that', there's a good chance you actually can.  But if that same scientist says 'you *can't* do that' then he may well be wrong." - Vince Cert, 2010
Nov 02 19:28:43 <Noobmonk3y> http://pastebin.com/wsC3zKeM
Nov 02 19:28:58 <DocScrutinizer> or edit znc.cfg
Nov 02 19:30:18 <Noobmonk3y> sorry crashanddie missed a barcket at the bottom, it is in my code though
Nov 02 19:32:20 <DocScrutinizer> Noobmonk3y: line 3,4,5 look odd
Nov 02 19:32:38 <Noobmonk3y> oh
Nov 02 19:32:43 <Noobmonk3y> they are reading in fine though
Nov 02 19:32:51 <Noobmonk3y> want me to ignore the sed?
Nov 02 19:32:55 <Noobmonk3y> and just use the df-h?
Nov 02 19:33:37 <Noobmonk3y> its the code used earlier, so does read fine
Nov 02 19:33:37 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: http://pastebin.com/AYFM5PjY
Nov 02 19:33:52 <DocScrutinizer> you probably meant >>ash -c "x | y"<< but you do >>ash -c x | y<<
Nov 02 19:33:57 <crashanddie> learn2debug
Nov 02 19:34:03 <Noobmonk3y> ;)
Nov 02 19:34:06 <Noobmonk3y> i do!
Nov 02 19:34:16 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: drop the sed
Nov 02 19:34:18 <crashanddie> you don't need it
Nov 02 19:34:36 <MohammadAG> he does for QTextBrowser to not fuck up text ;)
Nov 02 19:34:46 <crashanddie> MohammadAG: we'll format it afterwards
Nov 02 19:34:50 <MohammadAG> QTextBrowser doesn't handle line breaks properly
Nov 02 19:34:55 <MohammadAG> I see
Nov 02 19:35:45 <DocScrutinizer> Noobmonk3y: also WHY ash???
Nov 02 19:35:55 <Noobmonk3y> cos the clever people said so
Nov 02 19:36:06 <DocScrutinizer> pfff
Nov 02 19:36:15 <Noobmonk3y> DocScrutinizer: anything clever to add to it? lol ;)
Nov 02 19:36:15 <DocScrutinizer> sh is the name, not ash
Nov 02 19:37:09 <user> Did someone too made the experience that the contacts list on the phone was lost after unsubscribing from mynokia or was this one more "odd" coincidence?
Nov 02 19:37:16 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: http://pastebin.com/VG0spu79
Nov 02 19:37:21 <Noobmonk3y> ok crashanddie its debugging like this http://pastebin.com/bxphsPrr
Nov 02 19:37:35 <crashanddie> user: bollocks
Nov 02 19:37:46 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 19:38:10 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: ok, replace \t with " "
Nov 02 19:38:14 <crashanddie> (space)
Nov 02 19:38:27 <DocScrutinizer> crashanddie: df -c ?? o.O
Nov 02 19:38:36 <crashanddie> I left -c?
Nov 02 19:38:41 <crashanddie> my bad, should be -h
Nov 02 19:38:59 <crashanddie> hey, I'm doing this while I'm on the phone, yeah?
Nov 02 19:39:06 <DocScrutinizer> lol
Nov 02 19:39:07 <sp3000> crashanddie: that's what she sed.
Nov 02 19:39:12 <sp3000> eheh.
Nov 02 19:39:13 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: !!!! yay!!!
Nov 02 19:39:26 <user> unbelievable, i received unsubscription message 2 weeks later and though afterwards i receive an annoying n00b hint per SMS from these Nokia psychos!
Nov 02 19:39:31 <Noobmonk3y> well not used your last code
Nov 02 19:39:39 <Noobmonk3y> but the " " change is now reading out secier!
Nov 02 19:40:02 <crashanddie> So you get -> Line, --> Field --> Field --> Field?
Nov 02 19:40:10 <Noobmonk3y> http://pastebin.com/kMK5kiYD
Nov 02 19:40:14 <Noobmonk3y> almost
Nov 02 19:40:21 <Noobmonk3y> well yes actually
Nov 02 19:40:35 <crashanddie> excellent
Nov 02 19:40:37 <Noobmonk3y> woah, thats kinda beautiful
Nov 02 19:40:47 <Noobmonk3y> now i can feed that into a table! yay!
Nov 02 19:41:27 <Noobmonk3y> thank you very very very much!
Nov 02 19:41:39 <Noobmonk3y> and pfffffffffff to Doc's critisism ;) lol
Nov 02 19:41:53 <crashanddie> Hacking away at data, cut it up, slice it and present it in a different format is one of the most fulfilling parts of being a hacker (in my book)
Nov 02 19:42:05 <Noobmonk3y> hehe i agree :) - enjoyed it in pyqt :)
Nov 02 19:42:07 <Noobmonk3y> well, python
Nov 02 19:42:20 <crashanddie> no matter the language you're using -- be it python, bash (with GNU tools) or perl.
Nov 02 19:42:24 <Noobmonk3y> hehe
Nov 02 19:42:30 <SpeedEvil> awk++
Nov 02 19:42:42 <Noobmonk3y> ooo i could even do a QT set of pie charts now :P
Nov 02 19:43:08 * user waves for pie
Nov 02 19:43:19 <Noobmonk3y> or a list of bar charts, oooo decisions decisions
Nov 02 19:44:56 * DocScrutinizer spends some CHERRIES for the pie
Nov 02 19:45:20 <DocScrutinizer> seems user also has one spare
Nov 02 19:47:28 <Reffy> S'up guys. My keyboard sensor decided to break so could someone tell me either where the sensor is located or a Dbus command to make the N900 think the keyboard is open?
Nov 02 19:48:47 <DocScrutinizer> Reffy: ouch. The sensor is a hall switch somewhere above the "E" / "R" keys and is operated by a small magnet in the screen half
Nov 02 19:49:38 <DocScrutinizer> I seem to recall reports where that tiny magnet got loose and messed up kbd slide detection
Nov 02 19:50:42 <SpeedEvil> search for [79672.052978] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:50:42 <SpeedEvil> [79672.193511] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:50:47 <SpeedEvil> and similar ind dmesg
Nov 02 19:50:50 <DocScrutinizer> (take the "above E / R" bit with a grain of salt, I haven't actually looked it up recently)
Nov 02 19:50:55 <SpeedEvil> If that is not rpesent, then you're screwed
Nov 02 19:50:58 <Venemo_> hihi guys
Nov 02 19:51:14 <SpeedEvil> (well - from a functioning properly hardware POV - and reflashing won't help.
Nov 02 19:51:16 <Venemo_> hi MohammadAG
Nov 02 19:51:19 <Venemo_> :)
Nov 02 19:51:22 <Reffy> Ok, thanks
Nov 02 19:51:31 <Venemo_> can anyone lend me a megaupload account for a small time?
Nov 02 19:52:07 <crashanddie> Venemo_: thread carefully.
Nov 02 19:52:15 <BCMM> Venemo_: haha
Nov 02 19:52:28 <MohammadAG> hi Venemo_
Nov 02 19:52:44 <sp3000> DocScrutinizer, roughly at L, says a short waving at it with a magnet
Nov 02 19:52:48 <Reffy> ~ $ dmesg | grep kb
Nov 02 19:52:50 <Reffy> [    3.133728] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:52:52 <Reffy> [    4.864227] Registered led device: lp5523:kb1
Nov 02 19:52:55 <Reffy> [    4.864410] Registered led device: lp5523:kb2
Nov 02 19:52:56 <Reffy> [    4.864593] Registered led device: lp5523:kb3
Nov 02 19:52:59 <Reffy> [    4.864746] Registered led device: lp5523:kb4
Nov 02 19:53:03 <Reffy> [    4.865478] Registered led device: lp5523:kb5
Nov 02 19:53:03 <Reffy> [    4.865631] Registered led device: lp5523:kb6
Nov 02 19:53:05 <Reffy> [  227.615264] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:53:07 <Reffy> [  227.888549] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:53:09 <Reffy> [  258.091827] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:53:11 <Reffy> [  258.357330] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:53:13 <Reffy> [  319.513610] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:53:15 <Reffy> [  319.662078] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:53:17 <Reffy> [  327.340881] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:53:18 <DocScrutinizer> Reffy: !!!!
Nov 02 19:53:19 <Reffy> [  327.818298] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:53:21 <Reffy> [  358.834045] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:53:23 <Reffy> [  359.021362] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:53:25 <Reffy> [  398.044921] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:53:27 <Reffy> [  398.420288] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:53:28 <BCMM> wot, no bot?
Nov 02 19:53:29 <Venemo_> Reffy: thx, but I think we get it
Nov 02 19:53:29 <Reffy> [  446.880981] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:53:31 <Reffy> [  447.083892] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:53:33 <Reffy> [  509.466857] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:53:35 <Reffy> [  509.779876] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:53:36 <soltys> ;xxx
Nov 02 19:53:38 <Reffy> [  936.716857] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:53:39 <crashanddie> djeezus, DocScrutinizer, a bit quicker?
Nov 02 19:53:40 <Reffy> [  936.966613] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:53:40 <Venemo_> lol
Nov 02 19:53:42 <Reffy> [ 1091.794952] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed
Nov 02 19:53:44 <Reffy> [ 1092.013671] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open
Nov 02 19:53:58 <soltys> \o/
Nov 02 19:54:00 <BCMM> you guys REALLY need a better bot in here
Nov 02 19:54:13 <crashanddie> DocScrutinizer: /cs quiet #maemo nickname
Nov 02 19:54:13 <sp3000> our bots are made of meat
Nov 02 19:54:19 <MohammadAG> I'm curious if chanserv auto set that before DocScrutinizer :P
Nov 02 19:54:27 <crashanddie> MohammadAG: no, I set it
Nov 02 19:54:27 <BCMM> sp3000: that's why they lag
Nov 02 19:54:48 <sp3000> BCMM: add caffeine!
Nov 02 19:54:57 <crashanddie> Reffy: kill your IRC client, then reconnect. PM me when you're done.
Nov 02 19:56:56 <BCMM> y'all trying to make me break my resolution to quote the matrix less
Nov 02 19:57:03 <nox-> moin
Nov 02 19:57:29 <DocScrutinizer> moinmoin
Nov 02 19:57:36 <crashanddie> Reffy: all done?
Nov 02 19:57:53 <Reffy> crashanddie: Yeah
Nov 02 19:57:54 <DocScrutinizer> tztztztz
Nov 02 19:58:05 <crashanddie> let's not do that again :)
Nov 02 19:58:08 <andax> reffy: please use http://pastebin.com instead of flooding #maemo
Nov 02 19:58:09 <Venemo_> do you guys have an idea about what I can do with a microswitch whose switch has broken off?
Nov 02 19:58:27 <Venemo_> I still can switch it with a needle, but it is not so comfortable
Nov 02 19:58:32 <DocScrutinizer> Venemo_: throw away?
Nov 02 19:58:40 <Reffy> I didn't realise it was so much, my bad
Nov 02 19:58:46 <Reffy> I only glanced at the terminal
Nov 02 19:58:50 <RST38h> glue a piece of plastic?
Nov 02 19:58:51 <crashanddie> Reffy: more than 3 lines is too much
Nov 02 19:58:58 <BCMM> Venemo_: use it to make a device you own slightly more frustrationg?
Nov 02 19:59:02 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: forget it
Nov 02 19:59:17 <RST38h> heat up the needle and stick it into whatever remains of the switch button?
Nov 02 19:59:19 <Venemo_> DocScrutinizer: it is soldered onto the board
Nov 02 19:59:22 <DocScrutinizer> sometimes 5 lines are tolerated
Nov 02 19:59:39 <RST38h> then cut the needle and glue another piece of plastic to it?
Nov 02 19:59:46 <DocScrutinizer> Venemo_: replace it or live with the needle solution
Nov 02 20:00:08 <Venemo_> RST38h: I thought about it, but I don't think a glue would last long enough
Nov 02 20:00:15 <RST38h> put a little bead on top, then a piece of scotch
Nov 02 20:00:17 <Venemo_> this is the on/off switch of a Nokia 500
Nov 02 20:00:33 <SpeedEvil> Venemo_: obtain a replacement button, and solder it on
Nov 02 20:00:33 <RST38h> the scotch will not let the bead falloff and the bead will transfer pressure to the switch
Nov 02 20:01:19 <BCMM> consume the scotch, then try to wield a soldering iron
Nov 02 20:01:34 <Venemo_> RST38h: by scotch, you mean scotch whiskey? :P
Nov 02 20:01:45 <RST38h> no, I mean sticky tape
Nov 02 20:01:55 <Venemo_> RST38h: ah.
Nov 02 20:02:19 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: you ever had success with this, that lasted >1 week?
Nov 02 20:02:20 <Venemo_> RST38h: well this thing is less than 1mm, so it would be hard :(
Nov 02 20:02:33 <RST38h> Doc: yes
Nov 02 20:02:39 <DocScrutinizer> anazing
Nov 02 20:02:47 <Reffy> The sensor is located between the "P" and "O" buttons
Nov 02 20:02:57 <Reffy> I found the magnet that broke off
Nov 02 20:03:02 <DocScrutinizer> me never, until finally I gave up on such fixing
Nov 02 20:03:07 <RST38h> Doc: When done accurately, it is a pretty decent solution, but does not replace a fully functioning switch of course
Nov 02 20:03:20 <DocScrutinizer> Reffy: :-D
Nov 02 20:03:38 <DocScrutinizer> Reffy: sorry I had it in mind from a mirrored view
Nov 02 20:03:54 <Venemo_> RST38h: this is a small plastic thing, and the switcher part itself is broken
Nov 02 20:04:49 <RST38h> Venemo: ok, replace the damn switch and stop buggering us all :)
Nov 02 20:05:14 <Venemo_> ah, thx for the advices anyways
Nov 02 20:05:16 <RST38h> Venemo: You will find a battery powered soldering ironat a local RadioShack or its analog
Nov 02 20:05:18 <Venemo_> :)
Nov 02 20:05:27 <DocScrutinizer> Venemo_: or simply short the switch with a wire soldered across it. Never bother again :-P
Nov 02 20:05:43 <jacekowski> RST38h: these are bad idea
Nov 02 20:05:51 <jacekowski> RST38h: for soldering electronics
Nov 02 20:05:55 <Venemo_> DocScrutinizer: :)
Nov 02 20:06:03 <Venemo_> DocScrutinizer: this is a pretty funny story btw
Nov 02 20:06:38 <Venemo_> DocScrutinizer: one of my father's colleague has found a bunch of Nokia 500 devices in a river
Nov 02 20:06:58 <Venemo_> DocScrutinizer: in the exact place where he got robbed a few years ago
Nov 02 20:07:43 <Venemo_> DocScrutinizer: after cleaning out the dirt, some of them still work, but the guy didn't exactly know how to disassemble them correctly, so some of them have this swich broken off :(
Nov 02 20:07:49 <Venemo_> which is a pity
Nov 02 20:09:43 <Venemo_> btw, surprisingly for a Nokia device, this thing runs Windows CE
Nov 02 20:09:57 <andax> gas powered soldering irons are cool too
Nov 02 20:10:14 <andax> or rather hot :)
Nov 02 20:11:57 <Venemo_> :)
Nov 02 20:14:21 <RST38h> Venemo: it is a rebranded device from some company they bought
Nov 02 20:14:33 <RST38h> Venemo: that is why poor thing runs WinCE
Nov 02 20:15:28 <RST38h> jacekowski: exactly right thing if he only needs to solder a single switch
Nov 02 20:15:35 <crashanddie> "Symbian has been declared "The Embedded Operating System for Europe" by a consortium of European countries and companies, who have agreed to invest a total of 22 million euros (about $31 million at last count), 11 million euros of which will come directly from the European Commission. The idea is the "development of next generation technologies for the Symbian platform," wrote Richard Collins, technology manager for the Symbia
Nov 02 20:15:45 <crashanddie> http://blog.symbian.org/2010/11/01/euromillions-for-the-symbian-ecosystem-e22m-committed-to-next-generation-technologies-for-symbian/
Nov 02 20:15:49 <RST38h> not made for real soldering work of course
Nov 02 20:16:34 <RST38h> crashanddie: They will buy a giant multi-story ornate bong for $22m
Nov 02 20:16:57 <Venemo> RST38h: you know that for a fact?
Nov 02 20:17:05 <RST38h> And finally add the third color to their web site (current ones being black, white, and yellow)
Nov 02 20:17:10 <jacekowski> RST38h: no
Nov 02 20:17:15 <RST38h> Venemo: what? the bong thing?
Nov 02 20:17:18 <jacekowski> RST38h: it will just fuck up circuitry around it
Nov 02 20:17:43 <jacekowski> RST38h: it's applying 4-6V onto a tip
Nov 02 20:18:06 <Venemo> RST38h: [21:09:27] <RST38h> Venemo: it is a rebranded device from some company they bought -> this
Nov 02 20:18:15 <RST38h> ah
Nov 02 20:18:19 <jacekowski> RST38h: and because of way tip is made he will touch some sensitive parts
Nov 02 20:18:37 <Venemo> RST38h: it makes sense
Nov 02 20:18:42 <RST38h> Venemo: http://nokia500.wetpaint.com/
Nov 02 20:18:45 <jacekowski> RST38h: http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/cold-soldering.htm
Nov 02 20:18:49 <jacekowski> RST38h: this explains it better
Nov 02 20:18:56 <RST38h> Venemo: Smart2Go, so you can guess what company it was
Nov 02 20:18:58 <jacekowski> RST38h: never recommend that to newbiew
Nov 02 20:19:01 <jacekowski> newbie
Nov 02 20:19:11 <jacekowski> RST38h: or he will end up with loads of not working circuitry
Nov 02 20:19:23 <Venemo> RST38h: hm I guess that was the company which they bought for their own maps solution right?
Nov 02 20:19:35 <RST38h> jacekowski: the tip is supposed to be made of ceramics
Nov 02 20:19:54 <RST38h> jacekowski: So I am not sure how it can apply voltage through the tip
Nov 02 20:19:59 <RST38h> Venemo: yep
Nov 02 20:20:13 <jacekowski> RST38h: it's graphite based stuff
Nov 02 20:20:15 <jacekowski> RST38h: http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/cold-soldering2.htm
Nov 02 20:20:18 <jacekowski> RST38h: read the article
Nov 02 20:20:24 <jacekowski> RST38h: it explains it
Nov 02 20:20:43 <Venemo> RST38h: hm, well this makes sense :)
Nov 02 20:21:05 <RST38h> ok
Nov 02 20:21:52 * nox- wonders if powertop is lying when used with kernel-power...
Nov 02 20:22:22 <nox-> claims constant 1.1GHz...
Nov 02 20:22:35 <nox-> (and i didnt change from defaults)
Nov 02 20:22:37 <jacekowski> ~oc
Nov 02 20:22:37 <infobot> [oc] an Optical Carrier, An OC1 has 672 channels or 44.736 Mbit/s
Nov 02 20:22:40 <jacekowski> ~overclock
Nov 02 20:22:41 <infobot> I overclock in winter to keep dpkg's toes warm.
Nov 02 20:22:45 <jacekowski> ~overclocking
Nov 02 20:22:46 <infobot> "OK, listen up.  This is your CPU."  apt drops the CPU into a hot frying pan.  "This is your CPU on overclocking.  Any questions?"
Nov 02 20:23:27 <nox-> haha well im not overclocking, just use kernel-power bc of kismet and the charger bug...
Nov 02 20:24:05 <nox-> looking at the sysfs cpu clock confirms 600 MHz or lower
Nov 02 20:24:25 <RST38h> jacekowski: so it is not the tip that heats up, but the spot you are soldering, as it shorts the tip? :)
Nov 02 20:24:53 <SpeedEvil> coldheat is basically junk
Nov 02 20:26:42 <Noobmonk3y> stupid q, crashanddie whats the declare name for a qt integer? Qinteger?
Nov 02 20:26:54 <Noobmonk3y> ie Qstring = string... lol
Nov 02 20:26:59 <MohammadAG_> int?
Nov 02 20:26:59 <Noobmonk3y> sorry QString = string
Nov 02 20:27:06 <Noobmonk3y> nope :|
Nov 02 20:28:30 <Noobmonk3y> ahhhh qint16 and qint32 i think
Nov 02 20:28:59 <Noobmonk3y> meh no
Nov 02 20:29:54 <Noobmonk3y> hmmmmm
Nov 02 20:31:19 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: "int"
Nov 02 20:31:30 <Noobmonk3y> it aint wanting to use it
Nov 02 20:31:45 <Noobmonk3y> Aghhhhhhhhhhhhh
Nov 02 20:31:48 <Noobmonk3y> darn i'm a twat
Nov 02 20:31:51 <Noobmonk3y> i was using capitals
Nov 02 20:31:59 <crashanddie> noob
Nov 02 20:33:06 <Noobmonk3y> yup lol
Nov 02 20:33:08 <Noobmonk3y> ok getting there
Nov 02 20:33:10 <Noobmonk3y> have a table
Nov 02 20:33:15 <Noobmonk3y> iterating thriugh
Nov 02 20:33:18 <Noobmonk3y> through*
Nov 02 20:33:23 <Noobmonk3y> and adding each field
Nov 02 20:33:33 <Noobmonk3y> when the colum = 6 i start on the next row.......
Nov 02 20:33:54 <Noobmonk3y> using ui->tableWidget->setItem(irow, icol,field); (but it doesnt like field!!! lol)
Nov 02 20:34:23 <Noobmonk3y> no matchin call for setItem(int&, int&, QString)
Nov 02 20:35:44 <MohammadAG> void QTableWidget::setItem ( int row, int column, QTableWidgetItem * item )
Nov 02 20:36:07 <Noobmonk3y> :P
Nov 02 20:36:21 <jacekowski> RST38h: yes
Nov 02 20:36:24 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7/qtablewidgetitem.html
Nov 02 20:36:31 <Noobmonk3y> muhahahahaha
Nov 02 20:36:33 <jacekowski> RST38h: with these cheap battery powered irons
Nov 02 20:36:36 <Noobmonk3y> ui->tableWidget->setItem(irow, icol,new QTableWidgetItem(field));
Nov 02 20:36:43 * Noobmonk3y is learning slow!
Nov 02 20:36:56 <Noobmonk3y> lol - got all the values into column2 ;) - getting there!
Nov 02 20:37:11 <Noobmonk3y> got is in a table though, thats a darn good start!
Nov 02 20:37:47 <jacekowski> Global Offset Table?
Nov 02 20:38:19 <Noobmonk3y> ?!
Nov 02 20:38:50 <tybollt> noob!
Nov 02 20:38:53 <tybollt> oh and
Nov 02 20:38:59 <tybollt> I'm getting an android
Nov 02 20:39:03 <tybollt> so LULZ
Nov 02 20:39:37 <ham5> THANKS
Nov 02 20:39:51 <Noobmonk3y> ?!
Nov 02 20:40:04 <ham5> I was gettin this channel is invite only
Nov 02 20:40:08 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 20:40:11 <Noobmonk3y> sorry just saw your msg
Nov 02 20:40:23 <nox-> huh
Nov 02 20:40:25 <ham5> :)
Nov 02 20:40:38 <nox-> maybe you need to known to nickserv?
Nov 02 20:40:46 <nox-> to be known even
Nov 02 20:40:50 <ham5> already was
Nov 02 20:40:54 <nox-> oh
Nov 02 20:41:32 <Noobmonk3y> in qt is it var = var+1; or var ++; or something else?
Nov 02 20:41:39 <nox-> ham5, also logged in?
Nov 02 20:42:04 <ham5> ppl been joining lately?
Nov 02 20:42:18 <Noobmonk3y> 3 mins ago, last join
Nov 02 20:42:28 <Noobmonk3y> before that 4 mins ago
Nov 02 20:42:51 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: you're talking about an int?
Nov 02 20:42:55 <Noobmonk3y> yup
Nov 02 20:43:00 <Noobmonk3y> incrementing
Nov 02 20:43:15 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: var++; ++var; var += 1; var = var + 1;
Nov 02 20:43:15 <zokier> ++var; is usually the recommended way
Nov 02 20:43:22 <crashanddie> there is no frigging recommended way
Nov 02 20:43:31 <crashanddie> "it depends on the situation"
Nov 02 20:43:38 <Noobmonk3y> cool ty!
Nov 02 20:43:41 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 20:43:46 <zokier> *usually*
Nov 02 20:43:49 <Noobmonk3y> sounds like my kinda coding :P
Nov 02 20:44:13 <crashanddie> ++var assigns the value before computing the lvalue
Nov 02 20:44:21 <Noobmonk3y> thats just geeky!
Nov 02 20:44:29 <crashanddie> var++ computes the lvalue and assigns it before incrementing
Nov 02 20:46:16 <crashanddie> int i = 2; int j = i++ ->> i == 3, j == 2.
Nov 02 20:46:33 <crashanddie> int i = 2; int j = ++i ->> i == 3, j == 3.
Nov 02 20:48:07 <Noobmonk3y> :|
Nov 02 20:48:27 <Noobmonk3y> w000t almost there
Nov 02 20:48:30 <Noobmonk3y> displaying the table!
Nov 02 20:49:32 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: if you need help...
Nov 02 20:49:34 <crashanddie> i'm bored.
Nov 02 20:49:50 <Noobmonk3y> lol!!!
Nov 02 20:49:53 <Noobmonk3y> thank you! :)
Nov 02 20:49:58 <Noobmonk3y> the wine is helping me at the mo!
Nov 02 20:50:05 <Noobmonk3y> i've gotta learn somehow!
Nov 02 20:50:17 <Noobmonk3y> youve helped me so much so far, the last bit i'm gonna battle out
Nov 02 20:50:31 <crashanddie> anyone else got code they need doing?
Nov 02 20:50:46 <crashanddie> preferably python/bash/perl.
Nov 02 20:50:48 <Noobmonk3y> hehehe
Nov 02 20:51:06 <Noobmonk3y> lol you can go fix the pyqt healthcheck while i redesign the new one lol
Nov 02 20:51:09 <Noobmonk3y> pr1.3 killed it
Nov 02 20:51:18 <Noobmonk3y> DONE!!!!!!!!!!
Nov 02 20:51:19 <Noobmonk3y> omg
Nov 02 20:51:22 <Noobmonk3y> it's in a table!
Nov 02 20:51:28 <Noobmonk3y> df -h is in a bloody table!
Nov 02 20:51:41 <Noobmonk3y> now just to tidy up the table ;)
Nov 02 20:52:17 <dolp> if someone wants to help me test my little desktop widget app then pm me :D
Nov 02 20:53:12 <Noobmonk3y> dolp what does it do? :)
Nov 02 20:55:21 <dolp> noobmonk3y just little app i made to count sms.. but seems to have some issues with it. need someone with pr1.3 to test it
Nov 02 20:55:44 <tripzero> dolp: apt-get upgrade
Nov 02 20:55:48 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 20:55:55 <tripzero> then you are the one with pr1.3 to test it ;)
Nov 02 20:56:09 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, apt-get install python2.5-qt4-sip to fix the sip thingy
Nov 02 20:56:19 <crashanddie> sip?
Nov 02 20:56:40 <dolp> tripzero: i already have pr1.3 but the app gives me segfault. need someone else to test it..
Nov 02 20:56:47 <tripzero> oh
Nov 02 20:56:48 <tripzero> lol
Nov 02 20:57:06 <zokier> gdb is your friend
Nov 02 20:57:07 * tripzero 's n900 just got shipped off to repair facility
Nov 02 20:57:31 <Noobmonk3y> MohammadAG: about 8 different errors so far
Nov 02 20:57:41 <ShadowJK> tripzero: what is wrong with it?
Nov 02 20:57:55 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: easyish one for ya!
Nov 02 20:58:03 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, paste them
Nov 02 20:58:05 <crashanddie> fire at will
Nov 02 20:58:09 <tripzero> although, i'm tempted to jam my sim card in this work n900 unit and 'test' it for a few days
Nov 02 20:58:09 <tybollt> \o/
Nov 02 20:58:11 <Noobmonk3y> I want to add a row to the table, just before i put something into it
Nov 02 20:58:14 <tybollt> android here I come
Nov 02 20:58:15 <Noobmonk3y> ui->tableWidget->setRowCount(ui->tableWidget->rowCount ++)
Nov 02 20:58:15 <tybollt> desire
Nov 02 20:58:17 <tripzero> ShadowJK, usb port fell out
Nov 02 20:58:19 <tybollt> \o/
Nov 02 20:58:20 <tybollt> yay
Nov 02 20:58:21 <Noobmonk3y> i think i went about it the wrong way!
Nov 02 20:58:30 <tybollt> gogogo android
Nov 02 20:58:31 <tripzero> which appears to be all too common
Nov 02 20:58:35 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: + 1
Nov 02 20:58:39 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: rather than ++
Nov 02 20:58:52 <tybollt> can someone KB my retarded ass olready? :)
Nov 02 20:59:04 <MohammadAG> may I?
Nov 02 20:59:08 <tybollt> yes please
Nov 02 20:59:22 <tripzero> i need a temporary replacement phone!
Nov 02 20:59:24 <Noobmonk3y> hmmm, naaa, didnt like that ->    ui->tableWidget->setRowCount(ui->tableWidget->rowCount(+1));
Nov 02 20:59:35 <tripzero> samsung galaxy S is temping me...
Nov 02 20:59:40 * tybollt bends over
Nov 02 20:59:41 <tripzero> but i want an n9
Nov 02 20:59:46 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 20:59:54 <Noobmonk3y> oh god, who gave Mo power
Nov 02 20:59:57 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: ui->tableWidget->setRowCount(ui->tableWidget->rowCount() + 1);
Nov 02 20:59:57 <tripzero> rofl
Nov 02 21:00:16 <Noobmonk3y> ahhhhhhhhhhhh
Nov 02 21:00:18 <Noobmonk3y> that makes sense
Nov 02 21:00:35 * MohammadAG negotiates with terrorist over PM
Nov 02 21:01:02 <ShadowJK> You're either with us or against us!
Nov 02 21:01:03 <tripzero> shouldn't you *not* negotiate with terrorists?
Nov 02 21:01:06 <Noobmonk3y> yay!
Nov 02 21:01:08 <MohammadAG> Terrorist has switched over to android
Nov 02 21:01:08 <ShadowJK> or whatever that slogan was
Nov 02 21:01:12 <Noobmonk3y> working -> now to fit it on a screen!
Nov 02 21:01:43 <MohammadAG> tripzero, I am one, so I'm allowed to :P
Nov 02 21:02:03 <tripzero> terrorists with mod powers... what is this world coming too...
Nov 02 21:02:07 <MohammadAG> /kick crashanddie should teach you not to trust a random person in #maemo :P
Nov 02 21:02:12 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 21:02:17 <Noobmonk3y> :P
Nov 02 21:02:23 <crashanddie> you're right
Nov 02 21:02:26 <crashanddie> enough of your shit.
Nov 02 21:02:57 <crashanddie> I think the right sentence that comes to mind... is...
Nov 02 21:03:00 <crashanddie> "pwned"
Nov 02 21:03:01 <Noobmonk3y> lol just realised crashanddie !!
Nov 02 21:03:03 <tybollt> anyway so for the maemo users here - when work made you use android - how horrible an experience was it? :S
Nov 02 21:03:15 <Noobmonk3y> It's separated Mounted and on from 'Mounted on' into two cols lol
Nov 02 21:03:18 <tripzero> tybollt, it was meh for me
Nov 02 21:03:32 * MohammadAG does a rage quit
Nov 02 21:03:35 <jacekowski> tybollt: i would quit
Nov 02 21:03:36 <tybollt> no
Nov 02 21:03:44 * tybollt slaps MohammadAG w/ frals
Nov 02 21:03:46 <crashanddie> tybollt: yeah, you'll need some specific error handling
Nov 02 21:03:46 <Noobmonk3y> ~seen frals
Nov 02 21:03:51 <crashanddie> shit, wrong person
Nov 02 21:03:53 * tripzero used a nexus one for a few weeks but preferred the n900
Nov 02 21:03:53 <infobot> frals is currently on #meego (4h 22m 19s), last said: 'DocScrutinizer: is it sending an sms each time you press unsubscribe?'.
Nov 02 21:03:57 <MohammadAG> meh, doesn't work on bouncers
Nov 02 21:04:00 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: yeah, you need some specific error handling
Nov 02 21:04:23 <Noobmonk3y> lol!
Nov 02 21:04:25 <tripzero> there are some serious annoyances for me with the android UI
Nov 02 21:04:42 <tybollt> jacekowski: You dont have a wife and kid to provide for - do you? :)
Nov 02 21:04:48 <MohammadAG> need to figure out error handling myself :/
Nov 02 21:05:04 <tybollt> to EMOQUIT work is not really a solution
Nov 02 21:05:05 <Noobmonk3y> oo this is gonna be hard
Nov 02 21:05:06 <MohammadAG> my app always assumed everything went a-OK
Nov 02 21:05:10 <jacekowski> tybollt: that's your fault
Nov 02 21:05:17 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: for example: if (field == "Mounted") { /* add a specific row with the headers */ break; }
Nov 02 21:05:17 * MohammadAG lols
Nov 02 21:05:19 <jacekowski> tybollt: i can find a new job within a week
Nov 02 21:05:24 <jacekowski> tybollt: if i'm willing to move
Nov 02 21:05:27 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 21:05:31 * Noobmonk3y needs more wine
Nov 02 21:05:41 <jacekowski> or commute to london
Nov 02 21:06:26 <crashanddie> jacekowski++
Nov 02 21:06:41 <tybollt> I cant move or commute or shitfuck
Nov 02 21:06:49 <crashanddie> tybollt: I moved continents and back in about 6 months time because the job was crap
Nov 02 21:06:56 <tybollt> ja
Nov 02 21:07:03 <crashanddie> tybollt: lost about 15 grand in the experience
Nov 02 21:07:07 <tybollt> but not because they made you use an android :)
Nov 02 21:07:08 <Noobmonk3y> ok back
Nov 02 21:07:19 <tybollt> crashanddie: I hear you..
Nov 02 21:07:21 <crashanddie> tybollt: definitely not, quitting because of android would be a shit reason
Nov 02 21:07:31 <Noobmonk3y> sooo crashanddie ..... is it best not to determine the "mounted on" in the first part? QStringList lineFields = line.split(" ", QString::SkipEmptyParts);
Nov 02 21:07:36 <tybollt> crashanddie: Thank you :)
Nov 02 21:07:41 <DocScrutinizer> infobot: useless
Nov 02 21:07:41 * infobot starts crying and hides from docscrutinizer in the darkest corner of the room. :(
Nov 02 21:07:50 <tybollt> awww
Nov 02 21:07:53 <DocScrutinizer> stupid bot, highlighting me
Nov 02 21:07:56 * Noobmonk3y agrees with infobot , safest place to be
Nov 02 21:07:56 <tybollt> infobot: EMOHUGGZ
Nov 02 21:08:09 <tybollt> ~bend over
Nov 02 21:08:10 * infobot bends over and spreads legs
Nov 02 21:08:20 <crashanddie> android is pretty good to work with. Loads of people put up with Java, Android doesn't have more constraints than saying hardcore J2EE or WebSphere.
Nov 02 21:08:45 <MohammadAG> DocScrutinizer, highlighted, good? :P
Nov 02 21:08:52 <tybollt> is the desire a nice phone?
Nov 02 21:09:05 <tybollt> I mean, not countring the android part  I suppose :)
Nov 02 21:09:06 <Noobmonk3y> tybollt: yup
Nov 02 21:09:12 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: not much difference
Nov 02 21:09:18 <Noobmonk3y> ohhhhhhhhhk
Nov 02 21:09:26 <DocScrutinizer> wtf is going on in this chan anyway??
Nov 02 21:09:37 <pupnik> lack of discipline ;)
Nov 02 21:09:38 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: or you could just skip the first line as a whole...
Nov 02 21:10:18 <pupnik> i honestly don't see an app future between bada and meego unless they make the damn kernel compatible
Nov 02 21:10:21 <DocScrutinizer> crashanddie: did you set +i for LOLZ??
Nov 02 21:10:31 <crashanddie> I set +i?
Nov 02 21:10:34 <Aranel> I'm getting an error when building my pkg on Scratchbox, It's ok on my host system but can't package it on SB: make: dh: Command not found , make: *** [clean] Error 127
Nov 02 21:10:46 <MohammadAG> DocScrutinizer, no one set +o
Nov 02 21:10:48 <MohammadAG> +i even
Nov 02 21:10:55 <DocScrutinizer> crashanddie: seems you're having fun with random chanmodes meddling
Nov 02 21:11:03 <crashanddie> I do?
Nov 02 21:11:14 <Aranel> Can't I force it to copy a file to it's destination, without any debian/rules etc?
Nov 02 21:11:16 <crashanddie> mode/#maemo [+Ccntjf 3:20 ##overflow]
Nov 02 21:11:17 <ShadowJK> uh, isn't the kernel largely irrelevant when not even the same hign level api exists
Nov 02 21:11:25 * crashanddie doesn't see an i in there
Nov 02 21:11:40 <DocScrutinizer> ...while I try to figure why ham5 pesters me about #maemo being +i
Nov 02 21:11:46 <Noobmonk3y> crash....
Nov 02 21:11:47 <Noobmonk3y> i love you
Nov 02 21:11:53 <Noobmonk3y> what a great suggestion
Nov 02 21:11:56 <ham5> pesters? :(
Nov 02 21:11:58 <ShadowJK> and a meego app not being a meego app if it uses stuff from outside the official toolkits/apis ;p
Nov 02 21:12:06 <crashanddie> ham5: where did you see that #maemo was +i?
Nov 02 21:12:06 <DocScrutinizer> ham5: sorry
Nov 02 21:13:20 <crashanddie> ~ping
Nov 02 21:13:20 <infobot> ~pong
Nov 02 21:13:24 <ham5> I got that for about a half hour, then I decided to msg some ops
Nov 02 21:13:34 <crashanddie> ham5: when?
Nov 02 21:13:37 <ham5> got in about as soon as I msgd doc
Nov 02 21:14:09 <MohammadAG51> since he just replied, i'm sure he wasn't there
Nov 02 21:14:19 <crashanddie> alrighty then
Nov 02 21:14:21 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: If something is not = to something.... if (irow!=0) ?
Nov 02 21:14:37 <Noobmonk3y> or !iroow=0
Nov 02 21:14:40 <Noobmonk3y> irow*
Nov 02 21:14:43 <zap> Interesting, anybody thought why there are so much commercial games for WebOS, and there are near zero such games for Maemo?
Nov 02 21:14:54 <MohammadAG51> Noobmonk3y, latter afaik
Nov 02 21:14:59 <MohammadAG51> err
Nov 02 21:15:10 <MohammadAG51> yes, !irow=0
Nov 02 21:15:22 <Noobmonk3y> meh didnt work
Nov 02 21:15:25 <MohammadAG51> though wait for crashanddie's answer, he knows more :P
Nov 02 21:16:33 <Noobmonk3y> ok, went about it the wrong way
Nov 02 21:17:12 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: what type is irow?
Nov 02 21:17:23 <Noobmonk3y> an int, but i think ther eis an easier way
Nov 02 21:17:40 <crashanddie> what are you trying to do?
Nov 02 21:17:41 <Noobmonk3y> listIter.next();   -> just calling that before the while loop - to skip it
Nov 02 21:17:45 * nox- just looked in his log from today and didnt see any mode i change
Nov 02 21:17:54 <Noobmonk3y> just skipping the top row
Nov 02 21:18:01 <Noobmonk3y> Yup!
Nov 02 21:18:03 <Noobmonk3y> that worked!
Nov 02 21:18:08 <Noobmonk3y> I R Learninginging
Nov 02 21:18:19 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: yeah, that's what I said you ought to do in the first place :P
Nov 02 21:18:19 <Noobmonk3y> It actually looks quite beautiful!
Nov 02 21:18:22 <crashanddie> about 10 minutes ago.
Nov 02 21:18:28 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: you say, i do, wine ignores sorry!
Nov 02 21:18:37 <crashanddie> np
Nov 02 21:18:49 <MohammadAG51> hmm, why does apt take longer to read package lists initially?
Nov 02 21:18:52 <Noobmonk3y> now to autosize/wrap the rows :)
Nov 02 21:19:37 <MohammadAG51> does the eMMC have a "warm up" phase or something?
Nov 02 21:20:08 <ds3> got to be gentle with the filament or it will snap ;)
Nov 02 21:20:16 <ShadowJK> you have ram
Nov 02 21:20:43 <ShadowJK> it caches stuff
Nov 02 21:21:39 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: resizeRowsToContents()
Nov 02 21:21:45 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: class QTableView
Nov 02 21:21:53 <Noobmonk3y> Yay! almost beat you to it
Nov 02 21:21:55 <Noobmonk3y> just testijng
Nov 02 21:21:58 <Noobmonk3y> testing*
Nov 02 21:22:27 <DocScrutinizer> crashanddie: sorry, I'm in a foul mood. Also sorry to ham5. Seems freenode has a bug, as only thing I could imagine is a jointhrottle that kicked in and that should forward to ##overflow, not tell shit about #maemo being +i
Nov 02 21:22:56 <crashanddie> DocScrutinizer: np
Nov 02 21:23:23 <crashanddie> ham5: if you ever have an issue again, feel free to /mode #maemo to check what's what. Also /msg DocScrutinizer or myself.
Nov 02 21:23:28 <crashanddie> we'll react if we're available.
Nov 02 21:24:40 <ham5> no biggie thx for the concern tho
Nov 02 21:25:26 <Noobmonk3y> hmmm, ok, not bad size 7 font, but fits on the n900 lol
Nov 02 21:25:49 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG51: afaik != is a valid comparator, and equal to !( = )
Nov 02 21:25:59 <DocScrutinizer> err
Nov 02 21:26:05 <DocScrutinizer> ! (  == )
Nov 02 21:26:41 <DocScrutinizer> s/equal/equivalent/
Nov 02 21:26:41 <tybollt> (.)(.)
Nov 02 21:27:02 <DocScrutinizer> tybollt: lol
Nov 02 21:29:09 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: thank you again :)
Nov 02 21:36:04 <DocScrutinizer> meh
Nov 02 21:36:27 <V-ille> did maps always have the recalculate-route button, or did that arrive with pr1.3?
Nov 02 21:37:16 <DocScrutinizer> >>Obama shot down by tea party activist, who shouts "Take that for not being superman! I believed in you"<<
Nov 02 21:37:49 <Noobmonk3y> :|
Nov 02 21:37:51 <ShadowJK> V-ille, 1.#e
Nov 02 21:37:56 <ShadowJK> 1.3
Nov 02 21:38:06 <V-ille> I thought that feature wasn't there before
Nov 02 21:38:14 <ShadowJK> it wasnt
Nov 02 21:38:39 <V-ille> I remember cursing the lack of it, it's good it was added :)
Nov 02 21:41:13 <DocScrutinizer> Seems USA doesn't feel happy unless they have idiots and alcoholics to govern them
Nov 02 21:41:19 <Noobmonk3y> hmmmm ctrl+shift+P aint working lol
Nov 02 21:42:21 <Noobmonk3y> eh
Nov 02 21:42:27 <Noobmonk3y> screenshots still work for other people?
Nov 02 21:42:35 <Noobmonk3y> and ctrl+shift+p is right?
Nov 02 21:43:13 <ham5> works for me
Nov 02 21:43:20 <DocScrutinizer> ctrl-shift-p is right, and what makes you so damn sure it didn't work
Nov 02 21:43:29 <Noobmonk3y> cos the files aint there :p
Nov 02 21:43:51 <DocScrutinizer> no they're not there, they're over there :-P
Nov 02 21:44:22 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 21:44:53 <DocScrutinizer> on a serious note, I also always have a hard time to locate them
Nov 02 21:44:59 <Noobmonk3y> just checked
Nov 02 21:45:06 <Noobmonk3y> nothing since last week in screenshots folder
Nov 02 21:45:10 <Noobmonk3y> but ye i agree, they do vanish alot
Nov 02 21:46:00 <Noobmonk3y> hmmm, now how to get a screenshot
Nov 02 21:46:11 <Noobmonk3y> vnc server maybe lol! -> long winded way!
Nov 02 21:46:17 <DocScrutinizer> use load applet?
Nov 02 21:46:54 <Noobmonk3y> Trying, but shortcutd is pissing it off lol
Nov 02 21:47:01 <Noobmonk3y> cam button is used for something else
Nov 02 21:47:02 <DocScrutinizer> tzz
Nov 02 21:47:04 <Noobmonk3y> lol
Nov 02 21:47:08 <Noobmonk3y> its never ending pain in the ass
Nov 02 21:47:16 <SpeedEvil> wait for it to timeout
Nov 02 21:47:21 <SpeedEvil> it takes a pic anyway in 20s
Nov 02 21:47:22 <SpeedEvil> IIRC
Nov 02 21:47:22 <Noobmonk3y> meh i never use shortcutd anyway
Nov 02 21:47:28 <DocScrutinizer> yep, it does
Nov 02 21:48:08 <DocScrutinizer> even better screenshots that don't capture the fadig notifier :-P
Nov 02 21:48:34 <Noobmonk3y> meh, not doing anything after 20s
Nov 02 21:48:36 <Noobmonk3y> wtf is going on
Nov 02 21:48:56 <DocScrutinizer> you broke it, bloody overclocker!
Nov 02 21:49:03 <Noobmonk3y> lmfao
Nov 02 21:49:07 <Noobmonk3y> not overclocked at all :P
Nov 02 21:49:44 <Noobmonk3y> could it be saving somewhere else?
Nov 02 21:49:47 <DocScrutinizer> wut, no OC? well, then screenshots can not work :-D
Nov 02 21:50:12 <DocScrutinizer> Noobmonk3y: that's what I suggested to check by my first rant
Nov 02 21:50:16 <Noobmonk3y> Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
Nov 02 21:50:23 <Noobmonk3y> Date and time has reset to 01/jan 2009!
Nov 02 21:50:29 <DocScrutinizer> LOL
Nov 02 21:50:43 <Noobmonk3y> wohooooooooooooo
Nov 02 21:51:35 <DocScrutinizer> Noobmonk3y: I'm disappointed. You promised you won't mess around wit time and space of universe anymore!
Nov 02 21:52:09 <Noobmonk3y> hehehe ;)
Nov 02 21:52:14 <Noobmonk3y> MohammadAG: made me i promise
Nov 02 21:52:18 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: http://www.greg-roberts.com/hc1.png
Nov 02 21:52:25 * mgedmin discovers that brain is not necessary for programming
Nov 02 21:52:48 <Noobmonk3y> mgedmin: wine is though
Nov 02 21:52:55 <pupnik> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPowc1yM0NQ   notion ink -- awesome tegra2 tablet, transflective 1024x600 display (100mW in full sunlight), rear trackpad, swivelable camera
Nov 02 21:53:01 <DocScrutinizer> mgedmin: that's why I left that habit and leave it to others
Nov 02 21:53:01 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: nice one
Nov 02 21:53:14 <mgedmin> don't give me ideas, Noobmonk3y; the twin crutches of unit tests and version control are barely enough to keep me in line
Nov 02 21:53:22 <Noobmonk3y> hehe! yay!!! - i'm just getting the basic screens working before i tidy up and clean up! but thats 3 screens done!
Nov 02 21:53:27 <Noobmonk3y> 8+ more to go!
Nov 02 21:53:53 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: good on ya.
Nov 02 21:53:53 <Noobmonk3y> That one scorlls down, so will need to add some sexy arrors, as qt scrollbars are non existant
Nov 02 21:54:00 <Noobmonk3y> lol!!!
Nov 02 21:54:10 <Noobmonk3y> mgedmin: I have a police breathalyser ;) - tis great fun at parties
Nov 02 21:54:31 <Noobmonk3y> crashanddie: have to admit i'm impressed with how much quicker c++ is app wise, not coding wise lol
Nov 02 21:54:43 <crashanddie> well... duh
Nov 02 21:55:08 * DocScrutinizer is amazed how much quicker crashanddie is compared to Noobmonk3y
Nov 02 21:55:14 <Noobmonk3y> 2 weeks to get Healthcheck into maemo.org in pyqt, 2 weeks to do 3 screens in c++/qt, lol
Nov 02 21:55:19 <Noobmonk3y> DocScrutinizer: less wine
Nov 02 21:55:34 <Noobmonk3y> and i haven't even looked at packaging yet :|
Nov 02 21:55:42 <crashanddie> Noobmonk3y: C++ will always be faster than Python during execution, without taking into account that C++ is pretty much "native" Qt, whereas python needs glue to connect to the C++ first.
Nov 02 21:55:52 <kerio> crashanddie: lies!
Nov 02 21:56:02 <Noobmonk3y> lol!
Nov 02 21:56:04 <crashanddie> I wouldn't be surprised if we were talking about a 30-40% speed increase on average.
Nov 02 21:56:15 <kerio> JITted python beats unoptimized c++ most of the times
Nov 02 21:56:32 <crashanddie> kerio: and can you use JIT python with Qt?
Nov 02 21:56:46 <kerio> no idea
Nov 02 21:56:55 <kerio> pypy is still somewhat of a... pre pre pre pre alpha
Nov 02 21:57:16 <DocScrutinizer> crashanddie: I bet I can code something in python that's 10000% slower than coded in C
Nov 02 21:57:20 <DocScrutinizer> (++)
Nov 02 21:57:39 <Noobmonk3y> lol doc
Nov 02 21:57:49 <crashanddie> DocScrutinizer: sleep(1) vs sys.sleep(10000)?
Nov 02 21:58:31 <Aranel> Can someone look and tell me wtf is wrong with it?: https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/audelicious_1.0.0/i386.build.log.FAILED.txt It's driving me crazy :|
Nov 02 21:58:43 <kerio> Aranel: the build failed
Nov 02 21:59:03 <DocScrutinizer> I more though of a for(i=0; i<100000000; i++) vs Qobject i\n
Nov 02 21:59:06 <Noobmonk3y> kerio: damn you are good
Nov 02 21:59:17 <Noobmonk3y> DocScrutinizer geek
Nov 02 21:59:21 <kerio> i think it's because debian/rules exited with an error
Nov 02 21:59:23 <Aranel> kerio: yeah, I don't know why, It's my first package (except the l10n thing, but there was no binaries in that one)
Nov 02 21:59:31 <crashanddie> kerio: create two apps, but this is the fakecode: create dynamic string list, and string variable mystring. loop 10000 times while doing stringlist.append(mystring + "woohoo")
Nov 02 21:59:34 <kerio> i could be mistaken
Nov 02 21:59:39 <crashanddie> kerio: one in python, the other one in STL C++
Nov 02 21:59:53 <kerio> crashanddie: why would you do that
Nov 02 21:59:55 <crashanddie> I bet you $5 that C++ will kick the pants off python, whether it's JIT or not.
Nov 02 22:00:11 <Noobmonk3y> lcuk: alive?
Nov 02 22:00:15 <Aranel> kerio: It's working quite good on Scratchbox.
Nov 02 22:00:22 <kerio> crashanddie: [mystring + "woohoo"] * 10000
Nov 02 22:00:46 <crashanddie> kerio: because memory allocation/augmentation is one of the trickiest things in any language, and that is the only thing that will drive production-worthy performance
Nov 02 22:00:57 <DocScrutinizer> crashanddie: you got my idea :-9
Nov 02 22:01:02 <DocScrutinizer> :-)
Nov 02 22:01:34 <crashanddie> because in 99% of the scenarios, you don't know the size of the data you're going to handle. When you're working with streams, when you're working with complex data structures, when you're working with unknown data structures
Nov 02 22:01:47 <kerio> ["foo" + "bar"] * 10000 returns instantly for me
Nov 02 22:01:54 <DocScrutinizer> bah
Nov 02 22:02:06 <Noobmonk3y> is the meego conference on at the mo? or was that a while ago?
Nov 02 22:02:13 <kerio> if you need that kind of dynamic allocation you should use a db
Nov 02 22:02:19 <kerio> probably
Nov 02 22:02:22 <crashanddie> WTF?
Nov 02 22:02:23 <DocScrutinizer> even braindead-JIT will optimize that to 0
Nov 02 22:02:33 <crashanddie> dude, kerio, are you serious?
Nov 02 22:02:56 <kerio> you're saying a list is not enough for you
Nov 02 22:02:57 * DocScrutinizer suffocates from coughing
Nov 02 22:02:58 <kerio> :<
Nov 02 22:03:03 <Noobmonk3y> right, space + system done, onto cpu now....
Nov 02 22:04:05 * DocScrutinizer envisions kerio coming up with gnu-sort-2 based on db
Nov 02 22:04:26 <crashanddie> kerio: so your answer to "python's list handling isn't fast enough" is "use a database, probably written in C++"
Nov 02 22:04:36 <kerio> python's lists are quite efficient, afaik
Nov 02 22:04:41 <kerio> dynamic size and all
Nov 02 22:04:48 <crashanddie> they are
Nov 02 22:05:00 <crashanddie> and as I said, I thoroughly enjoy using them
Nov 02 22:05:07 <crashanddie> but it remains something that just doesn't scale -- AT ALL.
Nov 02 22:05:57 <DocScrutinizer> crashanddie: sure, those list objects are rarely built in a cache efficient manner
Nov 02 22:07:28 <DocScrutinizer> and objects are generally for the boys and mad scientists, while real hackers use c or assembler, or FORTRAN
Nov 02 22:08:17 <kerio> crashanddie: is C/C++ so much more efficient with heterogeneous containers of variable, unlimited size?
Nov 02 22:08:20 <crashanddie> I have been saying this since I've first played with an N800: Maemo's biggest problem is that it suffers from the choice dilemma. When you first join, and ask what language, every fanboi starts screaming "Use $language". The truth remains that python is an excellent toy/prototyping platform, and even more so with Qt. However, for anything that requires low latency, and honest response times, you need a language that doesn't spe
Nov 02 22:08:56 * Aranel is sad, spent an hour to learn a way to package a binary and a .desktop file easily but still getting FAILED e-mails :|
Nov 02 22:09:43 <DocScrutinizer> s/spe/suck/
Nov 02 22:10:12 <DocScrutinizer> 100% ack for the rest
Nov 02 22:11:16 <tybollt> for random user space wankery python is fine - but you can't write an operatinsystem in python...
Nov 02 22:11:40 * DocScrutinizer cackles
Nov 02 22:12:01 <tybollt> anyway
Nov 02 22:12:19 <tybollt> we will see when they release bind 10, written in python
Nov 02 22:12:29 <tybollt> how many distributions will still be using it
Nov 02 22:14:02 <kerio> tybollt: what's the last time you wrote an OS
Nov 02 22:14:55 <jacekowski> i really love your arguments here
Nov 02 22:15:41 <jacekowski> i can write faster code in python than average c++ programmer will write in c++
Nov 02 22:15:53 <jacekowski> not that i like python at all
Nov 02 22:16:31 <andax> aaahhhh who of you is stephen elop?
Nov 02 22:16:44 <jacekowski> besides, it's hacking time
Nov 02 22:16:49 <jacekowski> i need to fix fmtxd again
Nov 02 22:16:58 <jacekowski> nokia managed to break it again
Nov 02 22:17:05 <jacekowski> and make it incompatible with 1.2 fmtxd
Nov 02 22:23:22 <alterego> My brain is going gooing from fourier transform math :S
Nov 02 22:24:17 <sivang> alterego: oo
Nov 02 22:24:18 <tripzero> lol
Nov 02 22:24:31 <sivang> hey jacekowski
Nov 02 22:24:37 <sivang> jacekowski: what's fmtxd?
Nov 02 22:24:44 <tripzero> "this is your brain.  this is your brain doing fourier transforms"
Nov 02 22:24:45 * sivang read he interesting discussion about YTHON
Nov 02 22:24:58 <sivang> PYTHON
Nov 02 22:25:03 <sivang> err
Nov 02 22:25:04 <sivang> Python
Nov 02 22:25:07 <sivang> sorry for the caps
Nov 02 22:25:19 <johnsq> its a big snake
Nov 02 22:25:30 <alterego> I didn't realise signal processing was so complex :P
Nov 02 22:25:44 <sivang> and yes, c++ code is mostly faster and consumes less system resources so for embedded development that is not customized strong boards you'd want c/c++
Nov 02 22:26:06 <sivang> alterego: you are doing signal processing course?
Nov 02 22:26:30 <sivang> alterego: people who have passed this one successfuly at my university are known to not speak the languageof humanoids
Nov 02 22:26:32 <alterego> No, just learning about it.
Nov 02 22:26:41 <alterego> Heh
Nov 02 22:26:46 <tripzero> ~pr1.3
Nov 02 22:26:46 <infobot> well, pr1.3 is the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.3 -- see ~flashing for how to update
Nov 02 22:26:52 <sivang> alterego: ah, for a secret project?
Nov 02 22:26:52 <alterego> Figures
Nov 02 22:26:59 <alterego> Indeed :)
Nov 02 22:27:12 <sivang> alterego: tell tell :)
Nov 02 22:27:31 <sivang> if it involves DSPs it oughtta be interesting
Nov 02 22:27:33 <alterego> I'm kindding, no secret project :PP
Nov 02 22:27:48 <alterego> I'm just interested in it at the moment.
Nov 02 22:27:48 <crashanddie> alterego: FFT is cool
Nov 02 22:27:58 <crashanddie> alterego: been eating those at work for a few months now
Nov 02 22:28:22 <jacekowski> sivang: it's software controlling fm transmitter in n900
Nov 02 22:28:31 <alterego> crashanddie: cool, got any pointers?
Nov 02 22:28:58 <sivang> jacekowski: ah, didn't know it was open source
Nov 02 22:29:04 <alterego> I'm pretty lost at the moment, I've got a bout 10 tabs open in firefox and a couple of pdfs I'm crunching through ^.^
Nov 02 22:29:10 <crashanddie> alterego: yeah, take your time and double, triple, quadruple check everything
Nov 02 22:29:16 <alterego> Heh
Nov 02 22:29:53 <crashanddie> it's definitely one of the must bug-prone and "lolwut?"-creating areas of software I've had to work in yet
Nov 02 22:30:02 <sivang> jacekowski: 1.3 borked it in what way?
Nov 02 22:30:17 <alterego> crashanddie: what kind of applications do you work with?
Nov 02 22:30:32 <alterego> Well, what are you using this stuff for? :)
Nov 02 22:30:50 <crashanddie> alterego: call centre management server -- SIP calls, DTMF handling, etc.
Nov 02 22:31:14 <alterego> Oh, neat.
Nov 02 22:31:25 <jacekowski> sivang: it's not open source
Nov 02 22:31:29 <alterego> Like DTMF "parsing"?
Nov 02 22:31:35 <crashanddie> alterego: yeah, for example
Nov 02 22:31:41 <alterego> :)
Nov 02 22:31:51 <crashanddie> alterego: but also generation, and we use a heckuvalot of FTT for the test suites
Nov 02 22:31:53 <jacekowski> sivang: but i modified it to allow full frequency range and full power all the time
Nov 02 22:31:54 <alterego> That's actually kind of what I'm playing with at the moment ^.^
Nov 02 22:31:59 <jacekowski> sivang: without checking for headphones/usb
Nov 02 22:32:24 <alterego> FFT + DTMF is a nice mix ^.^
Nov 02 22:32:30 <tuliobaars> hey
Nov 02 22:32:30 <crashanddie> because these services need to be online 24/7, we need to have test suites that can call the server and make sure it's answering properly, that the menus (press 1 for ...) are functioning correctly, and that the sound quality is reasonable
Nov 02 22:32:43 <tuliobaars> sorry to intromiss
Nov 02 22:32:48 <alterego> Indeed, that's quite neat.
Nov 02 22:32:50 <tuliobaars> but, why isn't my tablet booting?
Nov 02 22:33:01 <alterego> tuliobaars: battery flat?
Nov 02 22:33:03 <tuliobaars> its freezed in logo screen
Nov 02 22:33:26 <tuliobaars> no, i chaged with the e71 one
Nov 02 22:33:28 <tuliobaars> just now
Nov 02 22:33:33 <tuliobaars> the bp-4l
Nov 02 22:33:50 <sivang> jacekowski: how di you modify it without the source?
Nov 02 22:33:54 <tuliobaars> and i cant reflash
Nov 02 22:34:04 <tuliobaars> because the flasher says
Nov 02 22:34:15 <tuliobaars> flasher v2.5.2 (Oct 21 2009)  Suitable USB device not found, waiting. USB device found found at bus 002, device address 003. Error claiming USB interface: Operation not permitted
Nov 02 22:34:22 <Noobmonk3y> meh too much wine
Nov 02 22:34:23 <tuliobaars> as root
Nov 02 22:34:47 <sivang> Noobmonk3y: had this last night, still suffering the consequence of it. Was my birthday...
Nov 02 22:35:03 <Noobmonk3y> awww happy birthday!!! for yesterday
Nov 02 22:35:09 <Noobmonk3y> and happy un-birthday for today!
Nov 02 22:35:14 <sivang> heh thank you
Nov 02 22:35:40 <sivang> Noobmonk3y: It wasn't that nice, birthdays can be depressing, hence the cava wine involved.
Nov 02 22:35:48 <Noobmonk3y> lol!!!!!!!!
Nov 02 22:35:52 <Noobmonk3y> just had my 30th :|
Nov 02 22:36:00 <sivang> Noobmonk3y: 32nd here
Nov 02 22:36:05 <Noobmonk3y> hehe
Nov 02 22:38:47 <Noobmonk3y> night alls!
Nov 02 22:41:53 <sivang> wow thank you ChanServ !
Nov 02 22:41:56 <sivang> :-p
Nov 02 22:42:39 * sivang feels special
Nov 02 22:46:07 <alterego> :D
Nov 02 22:46:20 <alterego> It's your birrthday? Happy birthday :)
Nov 02 22:47:28 * sivang thanks who ever changed the topic
Nov 02 22:47:34 <sivang> alterego: yes, thank you :)
Nov 02 22:47:59 * sivang hears the airplanes and smells the scent of travel in the air
Nov 02 22:50:07 <nox-> oh...  happy bday sivang :)
Nov 02 22:51:39 <sivang> thnk you nox- :)
Nov 02 22:52:16 * nox- still only knows little about who does what here or wrt maemo...
Nov 02 22:52:49 <sivang> jacekowski: are you actually working on the fm transmitter for nokia? :)
Nov 02 22:53:00 <sivang> it just hit me, that if you have accessto the source..
Nov 02 22:53:01 <jacekowski> sivang: for myself
Nov 02 22:53:12 <jacekowski> sivang: i have access to fmtxd binary
Nov 02 22:53:18 <jacekowski> sivang: which is more than enough for me
Nov 02 22:53:29 <sivang> jacekowski: ah , interesting.
Nov 02 22:53:38 <sivang> reverse engineering ftw!
Nov 02 22:53:43 <sivang> :)
Nov 02 22:54:20 <tripzero> s/e/[clean room]
Nov 02 22:54:23 <tripzero> s/e/[clean room]/
Nov 02 22:54:24 <infobot> tripzero meant: s/[clean room]/[clean room]
Nov 02 22:54:34 <tripzero> doh
Nov 02 22:55:37 * sivang feels spending the night of the birthday here would have been better than getting stupid drunk
Nov 02 22:59:14 <tripzero> hmm
Nov 02 23:32:05 <vltR> hello, any1 to answer my QT-Creator question?:)
Nov 02 23:48:20 <Gorroth> yo all
Nov 02 23:49:07 <SpeedEvil> Aha. My connection should be more stable now I'm using an apple product.
Nov 02 23:49:19 <SpeedEvil> (It's a jar of apple sauce used to prop up my n900)
Nov 02 23:49:27 <Mousey> lol
Nov 02 23:49:34 <nox-> haha
Nov 02 23:52:17 <DocScrutinizer> FFS, WONTFIX becoming the ugliest word of the decade :-/   https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=331694
Nov 02 23:52:18 <povbot> Bug 331694: was not found.
Nov 02 23:56:07 <tripzero> lol
Nov 02 23:56:14 <tripzero> "if you care, reopen it"
Nov 02 23:56:24 <tripzero> "cuz i certainly don't"
Nov 02 23:56:27 <b-man`> WONTFIX = lazy dev imo
Nov 02 23:57:00 <tripzero> WONTFIIX has its place
Nov 02 23:57:14 <b-man`> yeah
Nov 02 23:57:32 <tripzero> like when there's a corner-case bug that really has no impact but the fix would break a bunch of other things...
Nov 02 23:57:47 <tripzero> s/but/and/
Nov 02 23:57:47 <infobot> tripzero meant: like when there's a corner-case bug that really has no impact and the fix would break a bunch of other things...
Nov 02 23:58:02 <b-man`> indeed
Nov 02 23:59:13 <mgedmin> bug: solve world hunger by next tuesday
Nov 02 23:59:17 <mgedmin> resolution: WONTFIX
Nov 02 23:59:42 <maybeWTF> WORKSFORME
Nov 02 23:59:43 <tripzero> Resolution: NeedInfo
Nov 02 23:59:55 <b-man`> mgedmin, yeah - i get it :P
Nov 03 00:00:00 <DocScrutinizer> was about to write same
Nov 03 00:00:20 <DocScrutinizer> tripzero: ^^^
Nov 03 00:01:58 <b-man`> pick what i said apart why dont'cha
Nov 03 00:02:23 <mgedmin> don't'cha
Nov 03 00:02:30 * mgedmin muahahahahahs an evil laugh
Nov 03 00:03:06 <tripzero> don't 'cha wish your girlfriend could code like me?
Nov 03 00:03:17 <merlincorey> wat
Nov 03 00:03:21 <Mousey> that was funny
Nov 03 00:05:36 <rtghuzg5> Hi, how can i secure my N900? Now i can start it without a login
Nov 03 00:06:04 <SpeedEvil> well - there is a PIN code
Nov 03 00:06:15 <SpeedEvil> which can setup a 5 digit PIN
Nov 03 00:06:24 <rtghuzg5> PIN code is only for the SIM Card
Nov 03 00:06:27 <SpeedEvil> Somewhere in settings I think
Nov 03 00:06:39 <SpeedEvil> oh - I thought you could require it on startup.
Nov 03 00:06:54 <SpeedEvil> As far as I'm aware there isn't a standard way.
Nov 03 00:07:04 <SpeedEvil> I wonder if you can pervert one of the bootloaders to do it.
Nov 03 00:07:06 <rtghuzg5> But you can cancle it and then you have accesss to the phone
Nov 03 00:07:25 <rtghuzg5> that is not realy nice
Nov 03 00:07:31 <SpeedEvil> yes
Nov 03 00:08:37 <dolp> power button -> secure device? :D
Nov 03 00:09:39 <SpeedEvil> just screenlocks
Nov 03 00:09:50 <SpeedEvil> actually - I think it requires PIN to unlocka
Nov 03 00:09:53 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: that's lock code, not SIM PIN
Nov 03 00:10:14 <SpeedEvil> yeah - sorry - O'm confused as I've ever used it.
Nov 03 00:10:38 <SpeedEvil> I'd really ideally like it so without a passphrase, the device is a literal brick.
Nov 03 00:10:46 <SpeedEvil> It cannot be reflashed.
Nov 03 00:10:51 <rtghuzg5> How can i set this question automaticaly on startup?
Nov 03 00:10:53 <SpeedEvil> Ideally it would be on fire too.
Nov 03 00:11:04 <DocScrutinizer> for what rtghuzg5 asked for the lockcode is it
Nov 03 00:11:25 <DocScrutinizer> rtghuzg5: settings, device lock or somesuch
Nov 03 00:11:34 <rtghuzg5> when i lock the device power button -> secure device
Nov 03 00:12:04 <rtghuzg5> and shutdown and then start again my phone need a password
Nov 03 00:12:16 <DocScrutinizer> rtghuzg5: settings, device lock or somesuch
Nov 03 00:12:17 <ham5> pr 1.3 changed something to where u cant change the auto lock time too, anyone know anything about that? like it to be like 3 hours instead of just 1
Nov 03 00:12:50 <DocScrutinizer> ham5: check /etc/mce/mce.ini
Nov 03 00:13:18 <ham5> dont think its in mce.ini...
Nov 03 00:13:38 <ham5> was in the gconf.xml in /var/lib/gconf/system/osso/dsm/locks
Nov 03 00:13:49 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, maybe
Nov 03 00:14:37 <ham5> you change it tho it just reverts back to what you have it set for in the settings> device lock
Nov 03 00:17:50 <rtghuzg5> ham5, is it in /var/lib/gconf/system/osso/dsm/locks ?
Nov 03 00:18:31 <ham5> rtghuzg5 you just need to go into settings and then device lock at the bottom
Nov 03 00:18:42 <ham5> like docscrutinizer said
Nov 03 00:19:25 <DocScrutinizer51> twice
Nov 03 00:19:39 <ham5> 3rd times a charm? ;)
Nov 03 00:20:18 <rtghuzg5> I can only set autolock and change my password, but i can't set autolock on startup
Nov 03 00:20:37 <ham5> change auto lock to anything and it will work when you start up
Nov 03 00:20:44 <jacktheripper_> removing noexec for MyDocs in fstab still doesn't allow me to execute files, what's wrong ?
Nov 03 00:20:59 <jacktheripper_> I remounted, I 'chmod a+x'ed.
Nov 03 00:21:17 <SpeedEvil> jacktheripper: vfat does not support the execute bit
Nov 03 00:22:12 <jacktheripper_> SpeedEvil, how's that possible on other linux distros then ?
Nov 03 00:23:50 <jacktheripper> I thought there was an option to enable the not-present executable bit for all files.
Nov 03 00:25:29 <ebzzry> Aside from Ovi, where else can I get the main Angry Birds .deb?
Nov 03 00:26:07 <SpeedEvil> I think only ovi.
Nov 03 00:26:23 <ham5> can you get it stright from rovio?
Nov 03 00:26:30 <jacktheripper> what's wrong with ovi ?
Nov 03 00:26:31 <nox-> jacktheripper, you may be able to set the mode in the mount options, but it will be applied to all files on that fs and i have no idea what maemo will make of that
Nov 03 00:27:02 <jacktheripper> nox-, I did, I changed 'noexec' to 'exec'. But still, nothing changed.
Nov 03 00:27:07 <ebzzry> jacktheripper: I couldn't get it from them. It says it's "downloaded", and when I tap the download link, it does nothing.
Nov 03 00:27:27 <nox-> jacktheripper, no thats something different, i meant the mask
Nov 03 00:27:42 <b-man`> sorry i kinda rage quited on you guys, had some close relatives get into a bad car accident and i'm not in a very good mode, plus it's late and i tend to be kinda spontaneous when i'm tired :P
Nov 03 00:28:13 <SpeedEvil> b-man`: :(
Nov 03 00:28:28 <nox-> :(
Nov 03 00:28:42 <jacktheripper> ebzzry: install aptitude, and 'aptitude install angrybirds' if you have the ovi repo. I have no idea if this works for paid apps though.
Nov 03 00:28:57 <DocScrutinizer51> jacktheripper: fstab is autogenerated on boot. editing won't help
Nov 03 00:29:07 <jacktheripper> :/
Nov 03 00:29:07 <nox-> heh ok
Nov 03 00:29:07 <SpeedEvil> jacktheripper: It used to
Nov 03 00:29:31 <luke-jr> jacktheripper: fmask=777
Nov 03 00:30:07 <jacktheripper> what does 133 do ?
Nov 03 00:30:22 <ebzzry> jacktheripper: OK
Nov 03 00:32:32 <jacktheripper> DocScrutinizer51, can I disable the autogeneration somehow ? or even tweak it ?
Nov 03 00:33:20 <DocScrutinizer51> fstab isn't used for mounting on startup. So editing fstab is useless anyway
Nov 03 00:33:58 <jacktheripper> DocScrutinizer51, uh is it hardcoded ? :S
Nov 03 00:34:27 <DocScrutinizer51> check init-scripts/-events where to tweak the mount parameters. Beware! any typo will cause bootloop -- reflash follows
Nov 03 00:35:19 <jacktheripper> thanks.
Nov 03 00:46:04 <pupnik> "Christmas is a time for peace, and quiet computation." - Archie Bunker, 1972 :D
Nov 03 01:26:32 <Gorroth> hi
Nov 03 01:27:00 <Gorroth> okay, i'm trying to figure out what i need to do to create a maemo package.  is this all we have in ways of tutorials?  http://maemo.org/development/training/maemo_application_development_content/plain_html/node9/
Nov 03 01:30:39 <ebzzry> I can't run X Terminal. When I try to run, it quits. Why?
Nov 03 01:31:59 <nox-> try via run-standalone.sh
Nov 03 01:35:51 <ebzzry> nox-: Same behavior
Nov 03 01:36:36 <nox-> is there another instance already running?
Nov 03 01:36:52 <ebzzry> nox-: Yes
Nov 03 01:37:21 <ebzzry> nox-: If there is an existing instance, isn't the behavior to switch to that window?
Nov 03 01:38:04 <nox-> hmm
Nov 03 01:38:41 <ebzzry> I can't run it from the menu.
Nov 03 01:39:40 <Termana> good morning
Nov 03 01:40:39 <nox-> ebzzry, oh
Nov 03 01:40:59 <ebzzry> nox-: Yes, I can't.
Nov 03 01:41:08 <nox-> well if it doesnt even start from the menu then there really is something wrong...
Nov 03 01:41:34 <ebzzry> nox-: hmm
Nov 03 01:42:30 <nox-> can you tap on `new' in the top bar in it, does that open a new window?
Nov 03 01:43:18 <ebzzry> nox-: It does create a new instance, but I'm afraid if I close my remaining terminal windows, I won't be able to open a new one again. =(
Nov 03 01:43:46 <nox-> hm
Nov 03 01:44:48 <nox-> invoking it from the menu should switch to an existing instance at least
Nov 03 01:45:19 <ebzzry> Yup.
Nov 03 01:46:22 <ebzzry> nox-: Nah. I closed all existing windows, and opened a new one, and it did open succesfully.
Nov 03 01:46:35 <nox-> ah
Nov 03 01:46:47 <ebzzry> nox-: whatever it was. I hope I can do it again
Nov 03 02:07:22 <Arkenoi> conversation inbox still crashing taking half of widgets with it. sucks.
Nov 03 02:23:08 <pupnik> http://www.chiptune.com - awesome amiga workbench emulator website - click on plasma demo :D
Nov 03 02:24:19 <Gorroth> man, figuring out how to debianize something for the first time is a bit of a chore
Nov 03 02:24:29 <Gorroth> took me forever to find the right docs
Nov 03 02:29:16 <pupnik> Gorroth: yeah i agree
Nov 03 02:29:28 <nox-> Gorroth, do share :)
Nov 03 02:47:16 <Gorroth> okay, for maemo, there is this document: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing, and it recommends looking at this document for detailed info: http://www.us.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ch-dreq.en.html
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