**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Nov 09 02:59:58 2010 Nov 09 03:05:57 hay Nov 09 03:06:29 how can i copy contact to simcard? Nov 09 03:07:14 nooo you can't Nov 09 04:07:36 no you can't (except *maybe* by using gnokii via pnatd - I'd not start to try this. too much hassle) Nov 09 04:49:40 hello all Nov 09 04:49:58 is it possible to use the n900 wifi to give wifi to the ipod touch while round the city? Nov 09 04:51:50 i think you need kernel-power for that, and mobilehotspot Nov 09 04:52:33 so there is no way we can give the ipod touch wifi while round the city using the wifi of n900 maby from usb? Nov 09 04:53:11 eh? Nov 09 04:54:02 mobilehotspot is the package name Nov 09 04:54:07 http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/mobilehotspot/ Nov 09 04:54:12 http://wiki.maemo.org/Kernel_Power Nov 09 04:56:33 so we install that on n900 and should give power to wifi comunicate ad hoc Nov 09 04:56:39 with the ipod touch right? Nov 09 04:58:00 as i am not expert did i understand right :)? Nov 09 04:58:47 dunno about adhoc but ap mode should work Nov 09 04:59:31 i hope it does so i can also have internet on ipod touch everywhere using the n900 wifi :) Nov 09 05:02:20 the mac chan is full of fan boys lol Nov 09 05:32:34 VOA: what do you want to do exactly? use N900 to access WLAN hotspots, and tether the N900 to iPod via USB? Nov 09 05:33:18 VOA: or do you simply want to access the internets via N900 GSM, and tether to iPod via WLAN? Nov 09 05:34:07 ~botsnack Nov 09 05:34:08 DocScrutinizer: :) Nov 09 05:35:23 no i wanted a way to have internet on my ipod touch when i am outside Nov 09 05:35:28 using n900 wifi Nov 09 05:35:37 so i can have it round the city on ipod touch also Nov 09 05:40:22 man... anyone else having problems with nokia PC/OVI suite? Nov 09 05:41:55 I wouldn't have to use this crapware at all if I could do PR1.3 OTA... Nov 09 05:43:02 i can't wait xmas to get n900 Nov 09 05:43:20 in comparsion to surfing speed test vs iphone 4 who wins? Nov 09 05:44:32 whoever has the better network in your area Nov 09 05:45:00 i think n900 and ipod touch are a great combo Nov 09 05:45:40 VOA: fine, you answered my A_or_B multiple choice question by repeating your ambiguous definition of your usecase Nov 09 05:46:34 and is that bad or good and what answers did i give :)? Nov 09 05:47:05 as i use one as internet tablet and all the linux power it has to offer and one for uber store apps Nov 09 05:48:34 * DocScrutinizer shakes head with a sad face... "is it just me?" Nov 09 05:49:01 maby you are a fan boy ahha Nov 09 05:49:08 DocScrutinizer: nope :P Nov 09 05:49:13 i use everything and that what works for me as Bruce Lee sas Nov 09 05:49:15 says Nov 09 05:49:17 *sigh* Nov 09 05:49:25 purism now days dosen't go far integration is the future Nov 09 05:50:33 thanks, I'll use that for this weeks mantra - was desparately seeking for one with such a deep wisdom Nov 09 05:50:45 np Nov 09 05:51:13 Let me try something real quick. Nov 09 05:51:14 ~xyawn Nov 09 05:51:15 extra, extra, read all about it, xyawn is nap Nov 09 05:51:49 even infobot thinks I shouldn't participate in this any longer Nov 09 05:56:13 hi infobot Nov 09 05:56:34 does he reply hah? Nov 09 06:01:59 is infobot a bot? Nov 09 06:29:45 infobot: infobot ? Nov 09 06:29:45 hmm... infobot is in need of training, can someone train me? Nov 09 06:34:13 infobot: no Nov 09 06:34:23 Dang... Nov 09 06:43:43 lelly kelly are my little shoes o yea ! Nov 09 07:00:48 Ugh... F**K OVI suite in it's little cornhole... I'm just gonna have to flash this damn thing to get PR1.3... Ugh... Nov 09 07:02:16 Just back things up and reflash Nov 09 07:03:26 Yeah, wouldn't be the first time... I just wish reinstalling everything from the repos didn't take so long. Nov 09 07:04:03 Yea, true. I figure it's unavoidable when doing a PR upgrade, other than that though... that's what OS images are for Nov 09 07:06:41 True. I suppose I should use this opportunity to become more familiar with linuix. Although I can't help but feel like I'm missing out. My generation doesn't have to configure thier own kernels or anything. My peers ignorance, MY ignorance, could fill several olympic swimming pools (and then some). Nov 09 07:13:13 OCTOLITHIC: I know -some- people have upgraded using apt-get dist-upgrade, but I'm not sure on the specifics Nov 09 07:14:14 In my case, I used it as an opportunity to deal with the "bit-rot" accumulating after who-knows-how many image backup and restore cycles Nov 09 07:17:19 Mmm, I'm sure I could stand to simplify as well. Now that I've lived with this thing for almost a year I should have a better idea about what I will and won't end up using. Nov 09 07:19:22 I feel nauseated. Does that count, spammity spam spam? Nov 09 07:20:07 lucent, show me on the doll where you felt him Nov 09 07:20:19 OCTOLITHIC: it's just a !@#$ computer thing, you know, I think it is not magic after using these computer things for 20+ years Nov 09 07:20:23 ha Nov 09 07:20:46 * lucent concedes to Termana for-the-win Nov 09 07:21:47 ^^ Nov 09 07:24:38 * OCTOLITHIC uses MEMORY OF A GOLDFISH to forget why he was angry in the first place. Nov 09 07:25:22 ugh I need HANDS OF STEEL to open this lousy cap on a wine bottle Nov 09 07:26:26 in related to maemo news, I successfully used the power user kernel with aircrack-ng and kismet for some wifi fun Nov 09 07:26:55 it's kind of honest-novelty to have aircrack in my pocket. Nov 09 07:27:10 been there done that Nov 09 07:27:30 lucent, novelty? You should be cracking some wireless networks son, get some free wifi Nov 09 07:27:38 :P (I'm kidding actually, but anyhow) Nov 09 07:27:56 WiFi is too inconvenient. Nov 09 07:28:32 you know for the sake of posturing myself as a ... "law abiding citizen" or community partiticipant, not into bragging about the illicit Nov 09 07:29:12 it's just really pleasing to see that the wifi driver had no support, someone said "hey I fixed it, here's the patch", and all now benefit Nov 09 07:30:00 I think the wifi chipset has had support since nokia hired a guy to work on it Nov 09 07:30:26 I am not clear about injection support, do you know if that facet is working? Nov 09 07:31:31 it is working if one gets neopwn v2 Nov 09 07:32:07 oh, I will investigate Nov 09 07:32:16 and that project has faced lots of scrutinisation that the core dev pretty much decided to drop the project I suspect Nov 09 07:32:54 loads of empty promises and shattered expectations Nov 09 07:33:09 yo Nov 09 07:33:17 sad face. Nov 09 07:33:30 lucent: the driver is out in the nature Nov 09 07:35:15 greetings, DocScrutinizer51 Nov 09 07:35:34 o/ Nov 09 07:35:42 heh *shrugs* I guess one has to move on, sure it was quite annoying that it seems like what was an epic thing but at the end just seems to be one small step Nov 09 07:35:56 Morning All ! Nov 09 07:36:45 I'm still confused by neopwn, it looks like a closed source project? Nov 09 07:36:55 psycho_oreos: i don't blame the lead anymore, though Nov 09 07:37:02 lucent: completely Nov 09 07:37:25 psycho_oreos: he just tried. Didn't work out, got sick of wasting his time. Nov 09 07:37:47 difficult to believe that it would be linux based, and not be based on existing GPL code (and thus GPL'ed by nature)... or .. what Nov 09 07:38:17 lucent: he's not releasing the GPL code, even though he has to Nov 09 07:38:31 oh! one of /those/ Nov 09 07:38:44 crashanddie, *shrugs* oh well at least he made a dent in the what was supposedly deliberately removed feature (or at least I suspect) so I guess if one were curious enough, in theory could remake one that would be free and open Nov 09 07:39:04 psycho_oreos: sure Nov 09 07:39:15 psycho_oreos: not sure it was deliberately not included Nov 09 07:39:29 err Nov 09 07:39:46 sorry, early morning, I meant: I'm pretty sure it was not removed, rather never included. Nov 09 07:40:33 crashanddie, I dunno, not saying that injection support was never added but there was an old blog post detailing prior to PR1.2 that injection was working with power kernel supposedly.. that was later then either not incorporated or was broken and later mended (which did not become part of the released kernel version) Nov 09 07:40:57 nha, that's bollocks Nov 09 07:41:35 what is the test to know if injection is working/ Nov 09 07:41:45 lucent: inject packets :D Nov 09 07:41:46 ahh ok *shrugs* at least it seems like injection support can be added in separately, one pretty much just need the right sources and the tarballs to create it.. or so I believe Nov 09 07:42:03 * lucent looks on, dumbfounded but willing to learn Nov 09 07:42:18 there's a switch under aircrack-ng binary itself Nov 09 07:42:21 crashanddie: i.e. fakeauth or areplay? Nov 09 07:42:29 lucent: it's just a matter of grabbing aircrack and -0 Nov 09 07:42:33 oh Nov 09 07:42:40 test-ping routers Nov 09 07:42:45 best to read aircrack-ng docs, its very well documented but there's far to many that uses the tools and never bothered to fully read the docs Nov 09 07:42:59 finally found a work around for QTBUG-15140 Nov 09 07:43:10 anyway, have to go to work Nov 09 07:43:16 err not aircrack-ng binary, aireplay-ng Nov 09 07:43:17 will be on the other account in half an hour or so Nov 09 07:43:32 'later Nov 09 07:43:33 I've read the docs, more or less, mostly more Nov 09 07:43:39 you're referring to deauth? Nov 09 07:43:43 o.O cya Nov 09 07:43:50 no injection test Nov 09 07:44:06 * lucent reads manual page '-0' refers to deauth Nov 09 07:44:18 well with deauth you'd be looking at the same binary anyway Nov 09 07:44:28 but the same binary has switch to test inject Nov 09 07:45:28 woops Nov 09 07:45:29 oh -9 then Nov 09 07:45:30 not deauth then Nov 09 07:45:31 -0 Nov 09 07:45:33 -9 Nov 09 07:45:35 crap Nov 09 07:45:50 it's okay I'm merely curious about whether I had injection actually going or not Nov 09 07:45:58 there's plenty of switches in aireplay-ng :) Nov 09 07:46:08 lucent: you don't Nov 09 07:46:16 anyway Nov 09 07:46:17 later Nov 09 07:46:22 cracked my 40-bit wep key and some things appeared like aireplay was actually sending out packets, but I don't know if that meant injection worked Nov 09 07:47:24 well with injection test you can see that if its actually working, it will say so and if you wanted to doublecheck you can have another boxen running airodump-ng/kismet.. and see all the fake clients trying to auth./assoc. with the targeted AP Nov 09 07:47:36 just do injection test Nov 09 07:49:39 * lucent =) Nov 09 07:49:44 thank you psycho_oreos Nov 09 07:49:58 nw Nov 09 07:52:30 * RobbieThe1st headdesks - Note to self: Always check that the application you are trying to call -exists- before doing extensive debug work on why it's not working. Nov 09 07:52:43 Doubly so for semi-builtins like "expr" Nov 09 07:53:16 semi? Nov 09 07:53:51 It's part of busybox, but requires a symlink or call through busybox Nov 09 07:54:48 hmm, that's how messybox does this Nov 09 07:55:37 Yea. And forgetting that you don't have a symlink to it can be -very- problematic. Variables turning up empty, things just blank... Nov 09 07:56:55 DocScrutinizer51: doc! \o/ Nov 09 07:58:53 http://cartoonbox.slate.com/hottopic/?image=23&topicid=340 :) Nov 09 07:59:52 hi raster Nov 09 08:00:29 RobbieThe1st: set -e Nov 09 08:01:03 ? Nov 09 08:01:31 how important are the /sys files under n900? Nov 09 08:01:32 -e Exit immediately if a command exits with a non-zero status. Nov 09 08:01:37 I suppose very? :) Nov 09 08:02:51 That would be -very- problematic in my case, considering that would mean dropping out of any user-interface without unmounting any and all drives, and ending up hanging... Nov 09 08:02:56 RobbieThe1st: -u Treat unset variables as an error when substituting. (also strongly recommended :-D ) Nov 09 08:03:32 RobbieThe1st: nope Nov 09 08:03:34 psycho_oreos: why? Nov 09 08:03:53 they are too big and u want to delete them? Nov 09 08:03:54 :) Nov 09 08:04:08 Well, that would work fine... IF the frigging n900 had a proper framebuffer kernel by default! Instead, I have to work with text2screen for my output Nov 09 08:04:37 Remember: I'm not running inside Maemo. I'm running inside what is essentially a pre-boot environment. Nov 09 08:04:59 don't see the problem anyway Nov 09 08:05:28 raster, I did a dar backup of maemo rootfs, was tinkering around last night and sort of screwed up (it'll boot but with blank screen when X.org is loaded.. So I reflashed it and restored the complete dar file which caused the device to completely malfunction and do several boot loops.. now I'm in the process of sifting through the critical files that shouldn't be overwritten with the files that should be overwritten or otherwise copied to save myself time Nov 09 08:05:28 reinstalling everything from scratch Nov 09 08:05:48 a properly written program is supposed to catch and check *all* return codes anyway (except malloc) Nov 09 08:06:01 why not malloc Nov 09 08:06:37 err, iirc raster convinced me it doesn't make sense as you can't react if you're out of mem Nov 09 08:07:03 yes you can Nov 09 08:07:14 so only thing you can do is exit program, and that's what a malloc failing should do Nov 09 08:07:15 printf("OMGWTFBBQ\n"); exit(1); Nov 09 08:07:16 I'm running a large shell-script, written in busybox's ash. As I have no access to stdout/stderr by default(no framebuffer), I can only get return errors and values if I specifically grab that output(e.g. to a file) Nov 09 08:07:23 kerio: no mem Nov 09 08:07:34 printf will fail Nov 09 08:07:43 huh? even if it's compiled in? Nov 09 08:08:13 raster, any ideas/comments? :) Nov 09 08:09:37 sp3000: you awake? Nov 09 08:09:48 my network / dns died, and i can't seem to resolve *.work Nov 09 08:10:06 nokia has a whole TLD? Nov 09 08:10:07 nice Nov 09 08:11:06 nah Nov 09 08:11:18 but it does have a policy against disclosing network architecture Nov 09 08:11:47 ppsy sorry .. real life distracting me. Nov 09 08:11:56 psycho_oreos: sorry .. real life distracting me. Nov 09 08:12:01 ummm /sys is a virtual fs Nov 09 08:12:03 timeless_webchat, does it have a policy about disclosing what isn't in the network architecture? :p Nov 09 08:12:04 its not real files Nov 09 08:12:07 u never have to back iot up Nov 09 08:12:12 or copy things in and out Nov 09 08:12:14 Yea Nov 09 08:12:17 its generated on the fly by the kernel Nov 09 08:12:31 so... nokia's internal network does *not* have a TLD Nov 09 08:12:32 it is just an api (so tospeak) to get information in and out of the kernel Nov 09 08:12:33 like /proc Nov 09 08:12:45 so dont ever bother backing up or restoring /sys Nov 09 08:12:52 as writing to files in /sys could do.. bad things Nov 09 08:12:53 same with /proc and /dev generally Nov 09 08:12:55 (depending on what they are) Nov 09 08:13:58 raster, fair enough, I did get lots of errors when trying to do a dar on it, similar with /proc.. So I suppose in theory its best to delete those from de-archived dar file and to exclude them along with /dev /.dev Nov 09 08:13:59 DocScrutinizer: well u cant react to general "small malloc" failures Nov 09 08:14:05 eg malloc of a struct, linked lists etc. Nov 09 08:14:22 u basicall ylose all ability to do any kind of dynamic allocation when u run out of ram for accounting reasons Nov 09 08:14:27 u cant maintain lists anymore etc. Nov 09 08:14:29 BUt Nov 09 08:14:36 u can recover from malloc failures Nov 09 08:14:43 eg if u are trying to malloc 1gb of ram Nov 09 08:14:44 sure you can try to catch a mmap Nov 09 08:14:55 for lets say... a satellite image of the world u are decoding Nov 09 08:15:06 then thats easy to trap and recover from Nov 09 08:15:11 yesyes Nov 09 08:15:18 as u simlpy fail the loader of that 1 massive 1gb image pixel blob Nov 09 08:15:23 thats sane to recover from Nov 09 08:15:27 i want a TLD Nov 09 08:15:42 it's sane to *try* - you'll never know Nov 09 08:15:47 u cant sanely recover from the general case of malloced structs, strings, lists, hashes etc. that are part of the reality of writing a modern app Nov 09 08:15:54 (of reasonable complexity) Nov 09 08:16:51 Raster, would you mind please typing "you" instead of just "u"? Nov 09 08:17:14 RobbieThe1st: why? Nov 09 08:17:39 you should've used "y?" there Nov 09 08:17:47 * raster wonders if he should come up with an excuse for not having done the homework for RobbieThe1st Nov 09 08:17:56 raster: the original aspect was you shall check all return codes, and not just ignore everything running hovok. Just for malloc this rule isn't that strict Nov 09 08:18:05 For one, because it's not English Nov 09 08:18:15 DocScrutinizer: so i shouldn't use On Error Resume Next? :( Nov 09 08:18:19 lol Nov 09 08:18:30 oups wrong windows Nov 09 08:18:52 kerio: ehh?? Nov 09 08:18:55 DocScrutinizer: oh of course... but... in apps and libs that are already 100,000 lines of code long Nov 09 08:18:57 or bigger Nov 09 08:19:07 DocScrutinizer: ;) Nov 09 08:19:13 and possible every 3rd or 4th line contains a func that could fail Nov 09 08:19:23 raster: you check for every one of them Nov 09 08:19:24 srsly Nov 09 08:19:28 and to handle that u have to add another 4, 5 or more liens of code to "unroll and handle the failure" Nov 09 08:19:36 a 100,000 line app becomes 500,000 Nov 09 08:19:46 its unmaintainable Nov 09 08:19:49 Yes, which is called "good practice" Nov 09 08:20:02 good luck with that Nov 09 08:20:03 :) Nov 09 08:20:03 raster: for such things you got traps, catches or whatever your flavour is called Nov 09 08:20:31 RobbieThe1st: is there a rewuirement that i speak correct queens engllish here and type it perfectly? Nov 09 08:20:51 ooh .. i'm surprised u havent complained about mmy lack of using capitals Nov 09 08:21:04 DocScrutinizer: good luck in handling all such errors that way Nov 09 08:21:17 raster: meh! Nov 09 08:21:27 read backscroll Nov 09 08:21:29 u are half way thru 50 lines of code Nov 09 08:21:33 that init some struct u malloced Nov 09 08:21:35 and mallco more things Nov 09 08:21:39 and create more objects Nov 09 08:21:48 then suddenly u append something to a list Nov 09 08:21:51 and list node alloc fails Nov 09 08:21:53 u cant append Nov 09 08:21:59 u can have a trap Nov 09 08:22:01 and then what? Nov 09 08:22:11 u have to reverse back freeing everything u partly allocated/set up Nov 09 08:22:14 to the parent func Nov 09 08:22:20 and that parent func has to do the same Nov 09 08:22:22 and so on Nov 09 08:22:25 There are a number of things I am bothered by. But using "u" instead of "you" is something that disgusts me. I would be very happy if you took the time to use capitals and actually write out full sentences, but I'll take what I can get. Nov 09 08:22:27 then the trap handler will aslo throw error. So what? Nov 09 08:22:35 in the end how do u copy? u need to inform the user "i'm out of memory" Nov 09 08:22:43 but i cant alloc memory for the dialog to tell them that Nov 09 08:22:45 fun! Nov 09 08:22:46 :) Nov 09 08:23:13 running out of "general case malloced ram" is as good a case for segv or exit as any Nov 09 08:23:22 raster: what are you high on? didn't we agree on there's no use in catching malloc fails? Nov 09 08:23:40 only the special cases of "i have to alloc a big chunk" like i said before are sanely doable. Nov 09 08:23:59 DocScrutinizer: not for your benefit :) Nov 09 08:24:01 yayaYA Nov 09 08:24:23 If you are running out of memory, you don't have enough swap. Nov 09 08:24:25 RobbieThe1st: y u mad? Nov 09 08:24:37 RobbieThe1st: after enough years writing 10,000's of emails and god knows how much on irc.. i couldnt be bothered. Nov 09 08:24:57 :) Nov 09 08:25:06 And it makes you look like a dumb teenager, to be honest. Nov 09 08:25:12 i dont much care Nov 09 08:25:25 i have no interest in trying to look like anything Nov 09 08:25:30 You expect people to take you seriously, though. Nov 09 08:25:43 i have spent enough of my life living in places that dont speak english as language Nov 09 08:25:51 and having to make do with whatever form of communication works Nov 09 08:26:01 RobbieThe1st: i dont rely on my typing to do that. Nov 09 08:26:13 raster: how do they use english if not language? Nov 09 08:26:33 if it was ""My perfect Queens English that You request I use" which i am capable of doing, then it's nothing but a facade. Nov 09 08:26:35 those short words have been spread out to other groups apart from just dumb teenagers :/ even me mum SMS me with short words Nov 09 08:26:55 *Queen's Nov 09 08:27:02 DocScrutinizer: you have to catch all malloc fails Nov 09 08:27:03 yeah, but that's because she wants to look like a teenager, psycho_oreos Nov 09 08:27:08 the process of captializing and not using shortcuts for "you" like u have nothing to do with having knowledge in a field unrelated to english Nov 09 08:27:13 raster: It's "Queen's". Nov 09 08:27:20 raster: And "You" isn't capitalized. Nov 09 08:27:21 DocScrutinizer: if you live on system with disabled overcommit you are very likely to hit one Nov 09 08:27:23 It's one thing to be doing the best you can and not getting thing perfect; it's another entirely to deliberately make "mistakes". Nov 09 08:27:26 jacekowski: for what? how? Nov 09 08:27:31 rmrfchik: i meant "as a language Nov 09 08:27:36 typo Nov 09 08:27:41 RobbieThe1st: or not bothering to write properly, u no wut i mean? Nov 09 08:27:48 Exactly. Nov 09 08:28:02 DocScrutinizer: /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory Nov 09 08:28:06 though, I think he got the point, and will now make an effort, so we might as well move on Nov 09 08:28:12 RobbieThe1st: i'm not deliberately making mistakes. i'm just saving time and keystrokes Nov 09 08:28:21 raster, just make the damned effort. Nov 09 08:28:24 I did that myself, back when I was around thirteen. I learned better, and found that people respected me more for it. Nov 09 08:28:24 DocScrutinizer: and if you disable that linux will not allocate more memory than is avaliable and malloc will start to fail Nov 09 08:28:36 crashanddie_: nah. i'll pas thanks. Nov 09 08:28:39 err pass Nov 09 08:28:40 crashanddie_, I'd hate to think of it that way lol.. I hardly ever use short words myself Nov 09 08:28:50 the number of keystrokes in the universe is infinite. Nov 09 08:28:57 MohammadAG51: we have to talk Nov 09 08:29:09 rmrfchik: the number of hours in a day i have is not. Nov 09 08:29:14 rmrfchik: do you have any proof? Nov 09 08:29:21 * DocScrutinizer goes MEH and *shrug* and points to scrollback, general nonsense and tmo syndrome, and waves for a goodbye Nov 09 08:29:46 raster, if you won't make an effort to respect the people you're communicating with, I think you might be outstaying your welcome in #maemo. Nov 09 08:29:47 jacekowski: it is by intuition. it is proven (by lispers) that there is unlimited number of parenthesis Nov 09 08:30:04 crashanddie_: how has that got to do with respecting anyone? Nov 09 08:30:08 as obviously, it's annoying more than one person Nov 09 08:30:15 It's one thing to type with short words and missing capitalization on a 10-key phone. It's another to do it when you have a full QWERTY keyboard at your disposal. Even typing properly using the n900's keyboard isn't that hard. Nov 09 08:30:17 kerio: to borrow something from someone, i don't know what i don't know, so i can't say for sure that it doesn't Nov 09 08:30:20 crashanddie_: fyi english isnt my native language Nov 09 08:30:25 raster, neither is it mine Nov 09 08:30:31 yet, I make the effort Nov 09 08:30:43 that doesnt mean that i must Nov 09 08:30:57 and since i'm not allowed to disclose topology, you should not assume that i'm answering based on not knowing, i may merely be honoring the policy :) Nov 09 08:31:05 where is the set of rules that specify i speak correct english to partake in this channel? Nov 09 08:31:24 timeless_webchat: since you guys aren't using .work, can i take it? Nov 09 08:31:45 raster, feel free to PM me when you're done trolling. Nov 09 08:32:26 crashanddie_: feel free to tell us when you're done with uberruling Nov 09 08:32:29 DocScrutinizer: the rule is that strict. failure to do that can result in amusing security holes when your kernel is stupid :) Nov 09 08:32:35 DocScrutinizer, will do Nov 09 08:32:53 raster: you're not speaking correct english when everybody has to try hard to understand what you are writing Nov 09 08:32:56 ooh, *burn* Nov 09 08:33:00 raster: use a language which has exception handling... Nov 09 08:33:09 timeless_webchat: english? Nov 09 08:33:20 :P Nov 09 08:33:25 oh, he left? Nov 09 08:33:30 yup Nov 09 08:33:33 with a snarky quit message too Nov 09 08:33:37 At least someone told him. That was getting annoying yesterday as well Nov 09 08:33:47 * timeless_webchat notes that one should pre-cache the OOM dialog + text Nov 09 08:33:53 DocScrutinizer, done. Nov 09 08:34:07 screwit Nov 09 08:34:10 kerio, PM me the message Nov 09 08:34:14 timeless_webchat: that doesn't guarantee you'll be able to display it Nov 09 08:34:15 RobbieThe1st: i ran out of memory a couple of times yesterday Nov 09 08:34:21 n900? Nov 09 08:34:23 app hit a 3gb limit. system has 9gb of swap Nov 09 08:34:28 Ouch Nov 09 08:34:32 hm... Nov 09 08:34:41 Yea, I guess that -would- be a problem Nov 09 08:34:41 lol, 9gb of swap Nov 09 08:35:06 timeless_webchat, how much actually memory do you have in that system? Nov 09 08:35:27 Hey, I've got 12GB of swap... But only because I needed 4 for hibernation and wanted to make my 3 raid-5 drives have identical partition tables. Nov 09 08:35:43 RobbieThe1st: you could've given it 2gb Nov 09 08:35:56 well, 2gb for each drive Nov 09 08:36:12 or 1.(3)gb Nov 09 08:36:13 I wasn't sure if it it would hibernate across multiple partitions - I take it it will? Nov 09 08:36:19 yup Nov 09 08:36:22 crashanddie_: i'm borrowing the computer Nov 09 08:36:45 timeless_webchat, not criticising, just finding it funny :) Nov 09 08:37:37 frade: ping Nov 09 08:37:43 or mairas: ping Nov 09 08:38:58 timeless, pong Nov 09 08:39:29 mairas: i'm having dns issues, does nslookup "ok" work? Nov 09 08:39:42 * timeless_webchat can't resolve *anything* Nov 09 08:40:23 timeless_webchat, oh, that was it... my network connectivity was pretty hosed as well. I just rebooted the computer and got it resolved Nov 09 08:40:50 I'm not sure whether I was given new servers Nov 09 08:40:55 hrm Nov 09 08:42:23 morning all Nov 09 08:42:27 X-Fade: ping Nov 09 08:45:31 lardman|home: pong Nov 09 08:45:46 Ping Nov 09 08:45:48 hey Neils Nov 09 08:46:01 I'm getting an error trying to register a project on Garage Nov 09 08:46:08 ERROR: Could not create group: ERROR: value too long for type character varying(255) Nov 09 08:46:21 lardman|home: Don't write so much :) Nov 09 08:46:25 lol Nov 09 08:46:30 which field? Nov 09 08:46:40 ah, doh! Nov 09 08:46:45 lardman|home: Well some field with more than 255 chars ;) Nov 09 08:46:53 lardman|home: And it is not the description. Nov 09 08:46:55 I see now, is it not possible to limit the web input field to 255 chars? Nov 09 08:47:26 lardman|home: I'm sure it is. But this garage thing is a bit of an ugly beast :) Nov 09 08:48:16 sure, sorry to disturb, should have read the description first Nov 09 08:48:19 :) Nov 09 08:49:38 lardman|home: No problem :) Nov 09 08:51:21 X-Fade: can I also remove some Garage projects? Nov 09 08:51:33 I couldn't see a way in the web interface Nov 09 08:53:12 lardman|home: no, I don't think so. I can though. Nov 09 08:53:26 ok not important, I'll make a list and email you Nov 09 08:53:48 just thought I should clear out some stuff I never got round to doing much/anything on Nov 09 09:00:30 Anyone remembers hot to turn off the automatic update-check? Nov 09 09:01:23 phellarv: why does it bother you? Nov 09 09:01:37 phellarv: http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo#Disabling_Auto_Updates_Check Nov 09 09:01:45 iDont: Thanks Nov 09 09:02:09 np Nov 09 09:02:26 timeless_webchat: Because I don't use appman - I do it the shell way, and do not want blinking things in my GUI Nov 09 09:02:59 * DocScrutinizer points out there's an /ignore command which *EVERYBODY* is free to use (except OPs, regrettably) - so WTF is going on in this chan? Nov 09 09:03:38 DocScrutinizer51: Bad morning? Nov 09 09:05:06 might get one - not sure if for me or for somebody else Nov 09 09:05:40 * phellarv yanks out the popcorn and finds a comfortable spot to watch from. Nov 09 09:08:20 X-Fade: would you ever describe a program which ended with SIGSEGV or SIGILL as having "aborted"? Nov 09 09:08:27 anyone with n900 using bt audio in the car? what's the best way to connect? seems a pain to menu->bt->device->edit->connect Nov 09 09:08:54 toggles, mine auto-connects to bt headphones Nov 09 09:09:00 timeless_webchat: Yes. Nov 09 09:09:01 it should autoconnect Nov 09 09:09:02 toggles: should auto connect if paired shouldn't it? Nov 09 09:10:24 X-Fade: interesting, can you explain? Nov 09 09:11:00 timeless_webchat: All depends on who you are talking to. For non tech people, I think aborted is fine. Nov 09 09:11:01 timeless_webchat, I would call it "taken a choice" Nov 09 09:11:42 timeless_webchat: on windows i think they use "executed illegal operation and had to be stopped" Nov 09 09:12:11 X-Fade: interesting Nov 09 09:12:11 can you point to a normal application which does this? Nov 09 09:12:25 johnx lardman|home: i'd have thought but it's not working right, might be the car Nov 09 09:12:28 thanks Nov 09 09:12:48 jacekowski, if people didn't view illegal things in their programs it would do this! :p (I'm kidding, obviously) Nov 09 09:12:51 toggles, you might be able to do it with dbus-send, then make a launcher for that Nov 09 09:13:34 thanks Nov 09 09:14:08 jacekowski: yeah... Nov 09 09:14:13 sadly i'm limited to roughly 12 characters Nov 09 09:14:53 epicly failed Nov 09 09:15:33 timeless_webchat, what about, terminated? Nov 09 09:15:34 urgh, this python scripting is confusing Nov 09 09:15:45 that is calling python from within C++ Nov 09 09:16:05 timeless_webchat, even better, Termanated Nov 09 09:16:09 Termana: my initial suggestion was Unexpectedly terminated Nov 09 09:16:11 that's too long Nov 09 09:16:23 as an impl detail, there's a TERMINATED terminal state which is totally unrelated Nov 09 09:16:44 lardman|home: any interaction between dynamicaly typed and strictly typed languages is evil Nov 09 09:17:51 jacekowski: but useful nevertheless Nov 09 09:18:18 lardman|home: wher Nov 09 09:18:20 casting a pyobject pointer to a C++ class is what I'm umming and arring about atm Nov 09 09:18:21 where* Nov 09 09:18:28 mbarcode Nov 09 09:18:41 but am using the code in web2sms as a basis Nov 09 09:18:59 well, problem is what if your structure decides to change Nov 09 09:19:11 or python interpreter decides to do some weird optimisations Nov 09 09:19:20 and structure doesn't match anymore Nov 09 09:19:31 well the Python-side class definition should be fixed, no idea about the optimisation bit, but hopefully the class itself will remain ok Nov 09 09:19:31 timeless_webchat: fatality, died Nov 09 09:19:50 timeless_webchat, halted? Otherwise I would probably go with aborted Nov 09 09:20:21 "ended early" Nov 09 09:20:27 "called on account of rain" Nov 09 09:20:31 crashed Nov 09 09:20:43 SIGILL stopped play Nov 09 09:20:53 Died horribly Nov 09 09:20:58 DocScrutinizer51: i tried crashed first Nov 09 09:21:02 there were objections Nov 09 09:21:29 hello! someone there, who knows something about dropn900 connection problems? Nov 09 09:21:31 there'l always be Nov 09 09:21:42 e.g. the case includes SIGKILL Nov 09 09:21:49 xD Nov 09 09:22:06 umm Nov 09 09:22:38 did the car crash, when you shoot the driver? Nov 09 09:23:23 I'd argue it's a 'forced crah' Nov 09 09:23:34 crash* Nov 09 09:24:05 can we do one of those super classy cut-off error messages? Nov 09 09:24:12 PROGRAM TERMIN Nov 09 09:28:00 Ώ Nov 09 09:28:19 X-[ Nov 09 09:28:20 hello xD Nov 09 09:30:04 cu later chaps Nov 09 09:30:53 Ⱦ Nov 09 09:33:19 ߐ Nov 09 09:33:49 hi folks Nov 09 09:34:23 i need some help xD Nov 09 09:34:53 Derdavid, what's up? Nov 09 09:35:05 http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Skull_and_crossbones.svg&filetimestamp=20100708170328 or † Nov 09 09:39:42 hey bradas Nov 09 09:40:38 ~seen bradas Nov 09 09:40:43 no bradas here :) Nov 09 09:40:44 i haven't seen 'bradas', johnx Nov 09 09:41:15 johnx: ehh Nov 09 09:41:18 :D Nov 09 09:41:29 johnx: you are not funny, you know? Nov 09 09:41:53 I kinda figured. but I'm ok with that Nov 09 09:42:11 johnx: ok then Nov 09 09:43:17 timeless_webchat: http://www.isthisthingon.org/unicode/clipboard.php?add=10013 Nov 09 09:43:46 what do you guys think, how does this news affect Maemo/MeeGo? http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/nokia-developer-news/2010/11/08/rapid-innovation-for-symbian-platform?utm_medium=email&utm_source=peer360&utm_campaign=FN%5FINFO%5FBLAST%5F11082010?utm_content=FN%5FINFO%5FBLAST%5F11082010 Nov 09 09:44:19 q/act Nov 09 09:44:24 Sorry. Nov 09 09:44:46 Venemo_N900: the relevant paragraphs are the last two: Nov 09 09:44:48 For most of 2010 Nokia has been encouraging developers to use Qt. To show how seriously we take that decision we not only stopped all Nokia development in other frameworks, we committed to redeveloping key Nokia applications and services that weren’t already in Qt. Nov 09 09:44:49 Venemo_N900, probably very little. I guess it's nice they've standardized on Qt Nov 09 09:44:59 Nokia has been working hard on developing in Qt, as evidenced by the introduction of Qt Quick, which makes rich, visual applications and services even easier to develop. We are confident that by focusing on Qt and Qt Quick as our sole application development strategy, we will increase the opportunity for developers, constantly improve the experience for users and extend the joy that people get from a single device. Nov 09 09:45:32 Venemo_N900: the rest of it is irrelevant to maemo/meego Nov 09 09:45:38 timeless_webchat: that is good to hear Nov 09 09:46:17 timeless_webchat: so regardless of their commitment to Symbian, they're continuing to develop MeeGo too, right? Nov 09 09:49:03 hy, my headset for n900 isn't dedected my maemo. but healthcheck dedect it. what could be wrong? Nov 09 09:49:29 Venemo_N900: you do realize that having to "reaffirm" your commitment means that people think you're dropping something, right? Nov 09 09:49:49 basically symbian has reached yet another stage/step on the process toward being fully dead Nov 09 09:50:01 Morning, all Nov 09 09:50:05 DocScrutinizer: pong Nov 09 09:50:06 sadly, it's a long road... too long Nov 09 09:50:10 timeless_webchat: ah... Nov 09 09:50:24 timeless_webchat: there is nothing wrong with symbian Nov 09 09:50:35 jacekowski: sure there is, Nov 09 09:50:39 it's called Management Nov 09 09:50:40 :) Nov 09 09:50:41 bs Nov 09 09:50:51 nothing to do w/ the system stack :) Nov 09 09:51:06 well maemo managment is worse Nov 09 09:51:14 and symbian doesn't have a monopoly on that feature. sadly Nov 09 09:51:17 timeless_webchat: so basically this confirms that Symbian'll be dead? Nov 09 09:51:23 Venemo_N900: nah Nov 09 09:51:27 it'll die eventually Nov 09 09:51:36 sadly it still has years of life left Nov 09 09:52:01 timeless_webchat: well MeeGo is not ready yet to replace it Nov 09 09:52:05 it probably can't die for at least another 8 :( Nov 09 09:52:05 well, s/die/be properly burried/ Nov 09 09:52:09 s/burried/buried/ Nov 09 09:52:09 timeless_webchat meant: well, s/die/be properly buried/ Nov 09 09:52:31 Venemo_N900: really? Nov 09 09:52:48 a stack which hasn't shipped a single product isn't ready to replace something which has shipped millions of units? Nov 09 09:52:50 * timeless_webchat is shocked Nov 09 09:53:53 timeless_webchat: from what I've seen / heard about it, it will need some more time to get close even to the current Maemo 5 Ux Nov 09 09:54:24 Venemo_N900: seems like a reasonable conclusion Nov 09 09:54:56 timeless_webchat: :) Nov 09 09:56:05 ☠ Nov 09 09:56:17 Jaffa: ping timeout Nov 09 09:56:46 Jaffa: I think it was about NB#161191 Nov 09 10:01:32 Could anyone please explain why I get this: Error opening file '/media/Nokia N900/.documents/Comics/Name of the comic.cbr': Input/output error Nov 09 10:01:46 PontusOhman, doing what, exactly? Nov 09 10:01:51 making cakes? Nov 09 10:02:23 crashanddie_: Was going to move over some comics to my N900, but when I paste them on the device I get that error Nov 09 10:02:41 so this is an error displayed on your linux desktop? Nov 09 10:02:58 run 'dmesg' in a terminal and put the output on pastie.org Nov 09 10:03:05 PontusOhman, I'm guessing /media/Nokia N900 is mounted to /home/user/MyDocs/? Nov 09 10:04:29 johnx: > No error on the dmesg Nov 09 10:04:46 so your file manager in linux says io error, but dmesg doesn't> Nov 09 10:04:46 ? Nov 09 10:05:14 grmbl, do we really have to run make check in po? Nov 09 10:05:25 I hate when there are issues with applied patches and .pc folders >< Nov 09 10:05:44 johnx: > I tried to copy a .cbr file from a folder on my desktop on my Ubuntubox, but when I wanted to paste it on the device I get that error. Nov 09 10:07:13 PontusOhman, yes. so what you're saying is that nautilus gave you an io error, but dmesg doesn't have anything suspicious. I suspect some problem in nautilus Nov 09 10:07:14 crashanddie_: > The device is set to "mass storage mode" Nov 09 10:07:48 johnx: > I know the files is working, because I use comix to read them ^^ Nov 09 10:08:01 do you have enough free space? Nov 09 10:08:18 crashanddie_: > uhhhm... Over 20 Gb is free on the device so yeah ;) Nov 09 10:08:18 PontusOhman, ok. so is there anything in dmesg on the N900? Nov 09 10:08:30 johnx: Nope, no errors Nov 09 10:10:16 Can you create a folder on your n900? Nov 09 10:10:24 .i.e. is it mounted readonly? Nov 09 10:10:43 RobbieThe1st: > I can create and paste other files on the device, but no .cbr files Nov 09 10:11:12 PontusOhman, I blame nautilus. try cp Nov 09 10:11:16 prove me wrong :) Nov 09 10:11:17 Yea Nov 09 10:11:33 what's a .cbr? Nov 09 10:11:43 a .rar file renamed Nov 09 10:11:45 jacekowski: you mean that c++ is dynamically typed and python is statically typed right? Nov 09 10:11:54 and generally filled with comic images Nov 09 10:12:09 johnx: Will try that :) Nov 09 10:12:12 hang on Nov 09 10:12:36 kerio: yes Nov 09 10:14:18 kerio: isn't it quite the opposite? Nov 09 10:14:28 Venemo_N900: huh? no Nov 09 10:14:58 kerio: c++ was statically typed last time I checked Nov 09 10:15:11 any conversion (except between *some* numeric types) must be explicited Nov 09 10:15:31 and objects belong strictly to one type and one type only Nov 09 10:16:58 johnx: > Can't even do a cp of the file :O Nov 09 10:17:32 PontusOhman, eh? Nov 09 10:18:07 johnx: cp: cannot create regular file Nov 09 10:18:27 and it's only for that cbr file? Nov 09 10:18:35 It's for all cbr files Nov 09 10:18:44 try copying a different file of similar size into the same place Nov 09 10:19:08 also, try copying your cbr file onto a different place on your computer Nov 09 10:19:42 johnx: > Tried a .jpg file in to that folder with no luck :S Nov 09 10:20:00 Problem solved :D Nov 09 10:20:16 well, gotta find out *why*, but at least some of the mystery is gone Nov 09 10:20:32 just start picking away at variables until you only have one :) Nov 09 10:20:37 kerio, exactly. It is statically typed. Nov 09 10:20:39 PontusOhman, what are the perms on that directory? Nov 09 10:21:41 * timeless_webchat ponders Nov 09 10:22:06 (Pass 4) identifier 930700 [kernel] of 187 / 673 files... Nov 09 10:22:13 crashanddie_: > Removed that folder and maked a new folder in the root :) Nov 09 10:22:20 thx for the helt anyway :) Nov 09 10:22:25 "in the root"? Nov 09 10:22:43 sibling of .documents/ ? Nov 09 10:22:43 PontusOhman, sure. I would run fsck on that fs and backup any files, just in case Nov 09 10:22:57 kerio: C++ (pronounced /siː plʌs plʌs/ see plus plus) is a statically typed, free-form, multi-paradigm, compiled, general-purpose programming language. Nov 09 10:23:02 Termana: i was talking about python :< Nov 09 10:23:04 fwiw, we're talking about fixing the "." naming convention Nov 09 10:23:07 kerio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B Nov 09 10:23:11 also buzzwords Nov 09 10:23:43 kerio: read what you said you were talking about c++ Nov 09 10:23:46 timeless, that'd be nice Nov 09 10:23:57 [11:06:10] jacekowski: you mean that c++ is dynamically typed Nov 09 10:24:02 That it both me and Venemo_N900 must be blind Nov 09 10:24:04 it'll be fun to see what breaks Nov 09 10:24:12 Or* Nov 09 10:24:22 kerio: also, Python is dynamically typed Nov 09 10:24:32 kerio: read Wikipedia Nov 09 10:25:04 Venemo_N900: Wikipedia. Ha! ;p Nov 09 10:25:08 * crashanddie_ goes to change Wikipedia to say that Python is statically typed language Nov 09 10:25:29 crashanddie_: lol Nov 09 10:25:30 crashanddie_: you are evil sir ;p Nov 09 10:26:22 kerio: for the definition of what it means, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamically_typed#Dynamic_typing Nov 09 10:26:49 kerio: all interpreted languages are dynamically typed Nov 09 10:27:52 Venemo_N900, BASIC historically used static types and that is interpreted :P Nov 09 10:27:52 kerio: A programming language is said to be dynamically typed when the majority of its type checking is performed at run-time as opposed to at compile-time. Nov 09 10:27:54 hrm, isn't there an interpreted C that's statically typed? Nov 09 10:28:03 lcuk++ Nov 09 10:28:04 interpretd C? Nov 09 10:28:35 for the complications of compiled languages and the speed of interpreted languages? Nov 09 10:28:43 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/376611/why-interpreted-langs-are-mostly-ducktyped-while-compiled-have-strong-typing Nov 09 10:28:43 since in interpreted languages type-checking occours at the runtime, they can not be statically typed Nov 09 10:28:46 the variant datatype is my understanding of dynamic typing - a box you dont know what it contains Nov 09 10:29:01 lcuk: C has void* Nov 09 10:29:05 Venemo_N900: read the link above Nov 09 10:29:55 http://www.softintegration.com/products/chstandard/download/ Nov 09 10:30:00 timeless_webchat: sorry, I did not talk about compiled vs interpreted Nov 09 10:30:02 Ch is a C interpreter :) Nov 09 10:30:16 timeless_webchat: I of course agree with the SO answer Nov 09 10:32:19 lcuk, rather bubblewrap, it can contain anything, and when required you can look at it to see what shape it has Nov 09 10:32:46 crashanddie_: and it's also more resistant to mishandling Nov 09 10:33:00 it's also less resistant to sloppy coding Nov 09 10:33:12 *pop* *pop* *pop* Nov 09 10:33:36 if you can turn an int into a string without casting, sure, it's handy, but it's hell to discover your problems the day you have them Nov 09 10:33:49 oh, that's just awful of course Nov 09 10:34:09 crashanddie_, nice analogy :) unwrapping the coating takes time as well Nov 09 10:34:18 indeed :) Nov 09 10:34:29 and the kids love it Nov 09 10:34:34 ("3" + 4 will result in a TypeError in python) Nov 09 10:35:49 * timeless_webchat boggles Nov 09 10:35:58 it seems i hadn't received italian spam before Nov 09 10:36:01 kerio, in PHP: Nov 09 10:36:02 kerio: yeah, but it occours at the runtime, not at comple time Nov 09 10:36:15 well, there's no compile time :) Nov 09 10:36:23 kerio: which means that type checking occours at runtime Nov 09 10:36:29 (technically the code *is* compiled, but not in that way) Nov 09 10:36:38 kerio: thus, it is dynamically typed by definition Nov 09 10:36:42 :< Nov 09 10:38:40 kerio, I'm going to have to ask to hand in your IRC argumentalist card Nov 09 10:39:16 :P Nov 09 10:39:18 kerio, you've just been beaten on a technologically complex field that transcends difficult-to-type words by someone on his N900. Nov 09 10:39:53 (or looking at it another way, he caused someone on his N900 to waste time typing long words) Nov 09 10:40:01 * johnx sleeps Nov 09 10:40:10 * kerio swaps his IRC argumentalist card with his IRC troll card Nov 09 10:40:11 Too true Nov 09 10:40:49 really though, python doesn't do dynamic typing like other languages Nov 09 10:41:10 That's for sure Nov 09 10:41:22 PHP's awesome that way. Python... Not so much Nov 09 10:41:36 what Nov 09 10:41:50 RobbieThe1st, you just lost all the cards you ever earned by saying the above. Nov 09 10:41:51 * achipa segfaults Nov 09 10:41:57 No love for JS? Nov 09 10:42:08 What's wrong with PHP? Nov 09 10:42:21 FireFly|n900: if JS pulled his shit togheter and stabilized on a common DOM standard it would be MUCH better Nov 09 10:42:27 the prototyping system is cute Nov 09 10:42:48 kerio: seems that you don't understand what it means Nov 09 10:42:57 but if your UI will be inside a browser and you have no standard way to access it... Nov 09 10:43:01 I've used it for all manner of thing's it was never intended for... like an IRC bot, all sorts of command-line scripts.... Then I switched to linux and used the shell instead. Nov 09 10:43:07 Isn't DOM standardised? Not implying all vendors follows the standards, but.. yeah Nov 09 10:43:17 kerio: None of these terms are connected in any way with the number of implicit conversions available in a language. Nov 09 10:43:36 Also, to be honest I prefer the way prototypes work in Lua.. much cleaner Nov 09 10:44:05 RobbieThe1st, PHP is a shit language, built from duct tape residues and coke (as in soda)-fueled evenings by teenage boys in their underwear Nov 09 10:44:13 FireFly|n900: I don't like JS, but with some jQuery, it becomes less of a pain Nov 09 10:44:19 RobbieThe1st, it has no logic, no complete architecture, no decent object model Nov 09 10:44:44 crashanddie_: well at least it's turing-complete Nov 09 10:44:50 crashanddie_: PHP is good for what it was designed to do Nov 09 10:45:04 Venemo_N900, I like JS, and I prefer it vanilla :3 Nov 09 10:45:17 RobbieThe1st, str_*/preg_* functions: sometimes the needle is the first argument, sometimes it's the second. The OO modeling is a mess, with no possibility to do proper polymorphism and complex inheritance. Nov 09 10:45:44 crashanddie_: I would never use PHP for anything, but that is because of my personal preference Nov 09 10:46:26 Any language where the standard functions are so implicitly abhorred by every coder who comes along, and the first thing they tell themselves "I need to write myself a decent framework to use this language" is flawed to begin with. Nov 09 10:46:28 FireFly|n900: well jQuery does a lot of things... saves me lots of typing Nov 09 10:47:04 crashanddie_: hehe Nov 09 10:47:16 crashanddie_: C? Nov 09 10:47:21 Case in point, how many PHP frameworks are there? CakePHP, CarbonPHP (which I developed), CodeIgniter, Zend, Yii, Symfony, PHPDeVShell, Prado, Akelos, QPHP, ZooP Nov 09 10:47:35 I quite like it though - It's easy to write scripts, is entirely lax about whitespace, and relatively simple to work with. Javascript I also like... But not nearly as much, due to no proper documentation, and poor error debugging Nov 09 10:47:42 Venemo_N900, GUI designers have this awesome concept to reduce the typing even more... Nov 09 10:47:58 I'm sure jQuery is great for some things Nov 09 10:47:59 PHP HAS GOOD ERROR DEBUGGING? LOLWUT? Nov 09 10:48:07 crashanddie_: well I know about lots of guys who earn a fortune with PHP Nov 09 10:48:14 And it's neat that it wraps stuff like XHR Nov 09 10:48:18 FireFly|n900: indeed, they just generate awful code Nov 09 10:48:22 It does. I make a mistake and I get "error x on line y". Nov 09 10:48:27 like Zoidberg ... errr. Zuckerberg :) Nov 09 10:48:32 Venemo_N900, I also know a lot of girls who earn a fortune by being prostitutes, doesn't make any of them righteous. Or should we talk about bankers? Nov 09 10:48:38 FireFly|n900: I like its effects and UI library the most Nov 09 10:48:54 crashanddie_: good point Nov 09 10:49:02 PHP has, if nothing else, an excellent manual with examples of all sorts of things. With javascript, the best you get is half-a-dozen poorly written sites each with different explanations of what should work and what does. Oh, and sites still talking about IE-only stuff Nov 09 10:49:24 crashanddie_: btw, the fact that you a lot of those girls, tells something about you :P Nov 09 10:49:35 Venemo_N900, the problem with people who learns jQuery as their first "language" is that they don't understand what their function calls does, repeating CSS selectors one after another Nov 09 10:49:51 RobbieThe1st, if you want a good manual, try Java, or even Perl. Those manuals are miles ahead of PHP Nov 09 10:49:53 FireFly|n900: that is true Nov 09 10:49:56 Which leads to slow, hard-to-mantain code Nov 09 10:50:11 But I'm sure it has its uses, if used correctly :) Nov 09 10:50:15 FireFly|n900: agreed :) Nov 09 10:50:21 anyway Nov 09 10:50:24 old flamewar Nov 09 10:50:46 I've been a PHP user for quite a few years, I've even committed patches and stuff Nov 09 10:50:51 but the devs are wankers Nov 09 10:51:02 who spit on you as soon as you raise questions about the security of the language Nov 09 10:51:03 crashanddie_: Qt's docs are also very good, so are the MSDN docs Nov 09 10:51:07 indeed Nov 09 10:51:16 anyway, lunch with gf, later Nov 09 10:51:20 msdn docs are good Nov 09 10:51:25 not sure about Qt docs Nov 09 10:51:28 crashanddie_: good apetite Nov 09 10:51:36 enjoy lunch Nov 09 10:51:51 timeless_webchat: so far, I found what I was looking for in the Qt docs Nov 09 10:52:01 QT's docs are... fairly good. I did(am) run(ning) into issues with translating from QT to PyQT, and finding proper examples of various things... Nov 09 10:52:07 i don't believe you'll have lunch, enjoy your passionate sex Nov 09 10:52:13 no, wait, i got that wrong Nov 09 10:52:14 RobbieThe1st: =~ s/QT/Qt/g Nov 09 10:52:17 QT=QuickTime Nov 09 10:52:35 People still use that? Nov 09 10:52:36 kerio: lunch [time] Nov 09 10:52:49 RobbieThe1st: sure Nov 09 10:52:55 timeless_webchat: MSDN has some things that are ridiculously non-documented though Nov 09 10:53:34 I thought that died back in the '90s, when it had that horrible rounded grey interface and was never compatible with anything and always crashed... Nov 09 10:54:14 RobbieThe1st: what? Nov 09 10:54:27 http://www.apple.com/macosx/what-is-macosx/quicktime.html Nov 09 10:54:51 unfortunately it hasn't died yet Nov 09 10:55:12 sivang: remind me to get a better picture of http://images.apple.com/macosx/what-is-macosx/images/quicktime_player20090824.jpg Nov 09 10:55:19 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/QuickTime_7.6.6_for_Windows.png <- and they -still- haven't upgraded the interface! Nov 09 10:55:36 http://twitter.com/mikkohypponen/status/1935453057974272 Nov 09 10:55:58 re Nov 09 10:56:30 jorga: err Nov 09 10:56:34 that's the wrong ui Nov 09 10:56:39 they switched to brushed metal (?) Nov 09 10:58:58 err, not joga , sorry Nov 09 10:59:52 joga, scary Nov 09 11:00:40 mece: not quite accurate Nov 09 11:00:48 if you're offline, it asks a question :) Nov 09 11:01:11 it's a "feature" Nov 09 11:01:16 oh, and maemo has the same one Nov 09 11:01:23 so don't go complaining about apple Nov 09 11:01:23 timeless_webchat: well that's erm... comforting. Nov 09 11:01:42 timeless_webchat, it does? funky. Anyway. Nov 09 11:01:58 the apple feature is "don't bother the user from the web browser" Nov 09 11:02:01 the maemo feature is the same Nov 09 11:02:17 whether an app is smart enough to protect its user is thus a per app feature Nov 09 11:02:31 ham for instance is intentionally not interested in being particularly protective Nov 09 11:02:50 the call app otoh generally requires you to click the green button (gameable -- not actually valid protection) Nov 09 11:02:51 well, who the hell uses HAM Nov 09 11:03:02 kerio: who *uninstalls* it? Nov 09 11:03:11 i didn't know you could uninstall it :O Nov 09 11:03:13 remember, the issue isn't whether you use Y normally Nov 09 11:03:24 it's whether someone can convince your device to launch Y *anyway* Nov 09 11:03:41 the same reason you need to update IE on Windows even if you use something else Nov 09 11:03:49 something might convince your web browser to launch IE Nov 09 11:03:51 I tried opening that with n900 but nothing happened :) Nov 09 11:04:07 joga: i don't think we register skype: Nov 09 11:04:10 but we could Nov 09 11:04:25 my point is that from the protocol stack level, we're no different than apple Nov 09 11:04:34 k Nov 09 11:04:38 both apple and maemo leave the dialog in the hands of the third party Nov 09 11:04:43 which as shown is typically stupid Nov 09 11:05:00 timeless_webchat: what do you mean, no different? Nov 09 11:05:13 Venemo_N900: click on a link to a protocol in your browser on the n900 Nov 09 11:05:21 we don't pop up a "do you want to open foo:" dialog Nov 09 11:05:26 timeless_webchat: oh. Nov 09 11:05:44 timeless_webchat: okay Nov 09 11:06:01 from an architecture standpoint, we are not better Nov 09 11:06:07 we're accidentally better for a single one off protocol Nov 09 11:06:32 but only because of how we integrated them into our stack Nov 09 11:06:37 timeless_webchat: what is that single one? Nov 09 11:06:54 if they shipped their own skype client, they'd be just as vulnerable on our stack Nov 09 11:07:01 skype: Nov 09 11:07:18 read the actual report, he isn't complaining about skype: Nov 09 11:07:25 he's complaining about apple not guarding against foo: Nov 09 11:07:27 thats the same for pretty much all protocol links though isnt it? Nov 09 11:07:34 and apple is saying it's foo's job to handle foo: Nov 09 11:07:59 if the machine is configured to open xyz: links using xyz.exe application then, meh? Nov 09 11:08:12 heh Nov 09 11:08:38 lcuk: desktop browsers tend to ask Nov 09 11:08:51 they have more space for undecipherable messages Nov 09 11:09:05 the reality is that a browser isn't in a position to ask a useful question Nov 09 11:09:06 timeless_webchat, tell that to things when I accidentally click mail: links Nov 09 11:09:13 it doesn't know if foo: is dangerous or harmless Nov 09 11:09:18 i think the problem is more the iframe than anything Nov 09 11:09:25 evil nasty things ;) Nov 09 11:09:31 lcuk: network.protocol-handler.warn-external.mailto;false Nov 09 11:09:39 set that to true in your favorite geckos Nov 09 11:10:01 i use internet explorer 4. microsoft told me it was the best and most secure ever. Nov 09 11:10:09 my windows Me installation is so much safer with it Nov 09 11:10:38 hrm Nov 09 11:10:42 unregister mailto: ? Nov 09 11:10:54 or change it to something which doesn't actually do mail Nov 09 11:10:56 am joking, already in about:config Nov 09 11:11:56 (Pass 4) identifier 2163300 [libxml2] of 426 / 673 files... Nov 09 11:11:59 * timeless_webchat sighs Nov 09 11:12:10 merging 673 indexes is not fast Nov 09 11:14:17 guys, I have to leave now Nov 09 11:14:26 have a good afternoon :) Nov 09 11:14:27 hmm, Symbian closed sourced again Nov 09 11:14:50 lardman: ??? Nov 09 11:14:57 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11713192 Nov 09 11:15:31 is that true? Nov 09 11:15:50 or perhaps it's just a shuffling and it will remain open, but directed like Maemo was Nov 09 11:17:07 lardman: nothing in that article mentions closed sourcing Nov 09 11:17:21 apologies, my jumping to a conclusion Nov 09 11:18:24 lardman: no problem, but it would have surprised me Nov 09 11:18:55 I was just wondering if, as the commentator said at the bottom, they had decided that open sourcing had been a mistake Nov 09 11:19:25 well... Nov 09 11:19:35 the reality is that open sourcing didn't get them much Nov 09 11:19:43 yep Nov 09 11:19:44 it basically burned X EUR + X man months Nov 09 11:19:44 lardman: I don't know, but I don't think so Nov 09 11:19:49 name change would have been more productive Nov 09 11:19:55 maybeWTF: nope Nov 09 11:20:05 you can't rename a dog Nov 09 11:20:06 so all the people with dirty minds didn't have to think twice when mentioning symbian Nov 09 11:20:11 it won't wag its tail any better Nov 09 11:20:27 timeless_webchat: Symbian in the days of Psion was not so dog like ;) Nov 09 11:20:30 the few people who like it would have a new chance to learn reasons not ot like it Nov 09 11:20:38 s/not ot/not to/ Nov 09 11:20:39 timeless_webchat meant: the few people who like it would have a new chance to learn reasons not to like it Nov 09 11:20:50 better to keep loyalty from those who did like the old dog Nov 09 11:21:11 in some ways, it probably helped maemo Nov 09 11:21:32 less resources on the symbian side could be effectively deployed to compete w/ us :) Nov 09 11:21:39 Is there an article somewhere on what the fundamental limitations of the Symbian platform are? I know people go on about how limited it has become Nov 09 11:21:54 lardman: hrm Nov 09 11:21:54 s/limited/constraining Nov 09 11:22:08 are they closing it competly Nov 09 11:22:12 or just closing development? Nov 09 11:22:32 jacekowski: seems I jumped to a conclusion not supported by the facts Nov 09 11:22:36 so we don't know Nov 09 11:22:46 problems in symbian: Nov 09 11:22:53 i mean like in they develop it internally and then release code when done Nov 09 11:22:54 1. way too many incompatible ui toolkits Nov 09 11:23:05 timeless_webchat: linux does same Nov 09 11:23:08 2. just because you picked a given ui toolkit didn't mean you could ship to everything that had that toolkit Nov 09 11:23:13 timeless_webchat: QT, GTK and couple others Nov 09 11:23:19 -- because for some reason there were version breaks or something Nov 09 11:23:28 timeless_webchat: linux does the same Nov 09 11:23:28 jacekowski: =~ s/QT/Qt/g Nov 09 11:23:39 jacekowski: linux has better apologists :) Nov 09 11:23:46 hmm Nov 09 11:23:49 Symbian will continue be developed by its community of programmers around the world, but Nokia will now oversee this process. Nov 09 11:23:55 3. the memory model was too complicated for poor programmers Nov 09 11:24:27 -- this doesn't mean that it's better on linux, just that most users are more forgiving on desktop (if they're using linux on desktop) Nov 09 11:24:47 timeless_webchat: complicated? Nov 09 11:24:49 (linux desktop users accept crap, phone users can't afford to in the same way) Nov 09 11:25:00 jacekowski: are you familiar w/ it, or challenging me to be annoying? Nov 09 11:25:11 i'm familiar with it Nov 09 11:25:16 and i wouldn't say it's complicated Nov 09 11:25:19 i wouldn't either Nov 09 11:25:23 but that's the standard complaint Nov 09 11:25:28 whole idea is different Nov 09 11:25:29 it actually makes sense Nov 09 11:25:44 but note i wrote "too complicated for poor programmers" Nov 09 11:25:48 not too complicated for good programmers Nov 09 11:25:52 s/poor/stupid/ Nov 09 11:25:58 sure Nov 09 11:26:23 i saw some sad people that have no idea that there is something like pointers Nov 09 11:26:26 4. the app store story for Symbian is a trail of tears Nov 09 11:26:43 -- i'm not saying it's better on Maemo or Linux in general Nov 09 11:26:47 well, first phone with real app store was iphone Nov 09 11:27:03 well Nov 09 11:27:06 thing is that is you keep platform open like that Nov 09 11:27:09 nokia had 4 or more different attempts Nov 09 11:27:12 Download! Nov 09 11:27:14 you will have alternatives Nov 09 11:27:19 wasn't there a palm phone early on with lots of apps? Nov 09 11:27:21 alternative repositories Nov 09 11:27:25 was iirc one of the middle incarnations Nov 09 11:27:33 Or at least, that could run palmpilot apps Nov 09 11:27:34 SpeedEvil: yes Nov 09 11:27:49 jacekowski: i'm explaining the pain points Nov 09 11:27:57 i'm not saying they're absolutely insurmountable Nov 09 11:28:02 they're pain points Nov 09 11:28:03 Was there a central app-store for that - I forget. Nov 09 11:28:10 they aren't necessarily unique to symbian Nov 09 11:28:52 * SpeedEvil wonders about an emulated palmpilot that also emulates graffiti Nov 09 11:31:54 apologies, had to talk to someone Nov 09 11:31:56 5. symbian signing was a mess Nov 09 11:32:09 -- partially due to locking, lack of consistent signature recognition, etc. Nov 09 11:32:10 so basically the limitations of Symbian, so far, are replicated in Linux Nov 09 11:32:29 -- again, not necessarily a problem unique to symbian Nov 09 11:32:39 lardman: or coming soon! Nov 09 11:32:55 :) Nov 09 11:33:11 6. symbian apis never die (this is a win16/win32 like trait, unlike linux!) Nov 09 11:33:22 timeless_webchat, :P when giving lists, use a prefix or a suffix so that we can go back at a later date :P Nov 09 11:33:34 well that and the ui toolkit problem can now be addressed as Nokia pull the strings Nov 09 11:33:36 lcuk: yeah yeah Nov 09 11:33:44 lardman: funny Nov 09 11:33:54 really? Why not? Nov 09 11:34:01 let's not go there now? Nov 09 11:34:19 7. language support in symbian more or less sucked due to resource constraints on the target devices Nov 09 11:34:41 -- not technically a problem w/ symbian as a stack, just a constraint imposed by vendors Nov 09 11:34:47 exactly Nov 09 11:35:04 but please remember, we're talking about reasons people don't like writing for it Nov 09 11:35:15 that includes the whole env, not just the theoretical underpinnings Nov 09 11:35:20 horrible syntax Nov 09 11:35:28 if your OS supports 4etabytes of memory Nov 09 11:35:35 but only gives me 640k Nov 09 11:35:41 you don't get credit in my book for the rest Nov 09 11:36:01 but the constraint there is a hw limitation? Nov 09 11:36:10 typically yes Nov 09 11:36:30 combined w/ vendors choosing to optimize resources Nov 09 11:37:07 8. until recently vendors generally didn't provide OTA updates or service packs or whatever Nov 09 11:37:31 -- this was partially because operators blocked them, not because the updates didn't exist Nov 09 11:37:49 so then that leads me to my next question, what is the appeal, if anything of using Meego rather than Symbian? Other than a fresh start? Nov 09 11:38:01 it addresses point 6 Nov 09 11:38:21 and gives people a chance to screw up the other points all over again :) Nov 09 11:39:00 arguably 3 is replaced by a surprise (whether this is good...) Nov 09 11:39:13 actually in maemo 5, 3 was replaced by the device swapping to death Nov 09 11:39:18 (always a good thing?) Nov 09 11:39:50 Symbian supports vitrual memory doesn't it? Nov 09 11:40:08 you didn't generally design a phone to swap to death w/ symbian Nov 09 11:40:24 we did w/ the n900 -- it was a marketing requirement Nov 09 11:40:35 I mean I see next to no difference between Linux and Symbian, other than Linux is open source and there's lots of code around (both good things), but that doesn't necessarily make any odds to a phone manuf Nov 09 11:40:41 lardman: yes Nov 09 11:41:21 oh Nov 09 11:41:29 9. the TCP stack was "different" Nov 09 11:41:43 10. The C library was "different" Nov 09 11:41:46 timeless_webchat: the lack of swap death seems to me, based on the Psion days, of careful design for constrained devices - but that may have gone away since then Nov 09 11:42:03 lardman: i'm not claiming swapping to death is a good thing Nov 09 11:42:15 in fact, i hope based on my description you'll understand it *isn't* imo Nov 09 11:42:29 no nor I, but it always seemed to me that Linux was not designed for limited resource devices Nov 09 11:42:38 points 1-3, 9 + 10 meant that porting software to Symbian was painful Nov 09 11:42:43 lardman: it's not Nov 09 11:42:50 lardman: i mean kernel can deal with it Nov 09 11:42:52 yeah, it isn't Nov 09 11:42:55 yes I know that porting pain feeling Nov 09 11:43:05 lardman: but when you use full X with stuff Nov 09 11:43:09 note, i'm not saying porting is impossible Nov 09 11:43:13 Putty is ported Nov 09 11:43:16 Apache was ported Nov 09 11:43:20 (by nokia iirc) Nov 09 11:43:21 iirc Xorg on n900 is using like 70-80M of ram Nov 09 11:43:36 i think some of that might be the Display itself Nov 09 11:43:52 loads of it is resources from applications Nov 09 11:43:59 yeah, that too Nov 09 11:44:06 but WTF? Nov 09 11:44:06 What I'm trying to establish, in a round about way, is why Nokia have changed the plan re Symbian Nov 09 11:44:17 lardman: well Nov 09 11:44:24 Open Source was buzzword compliant Nov 09 11:44:31 Nokia strives to be buzzword compliant Nov 09 11:44:36 lol Nov 09 11:44:36 it tends to be a bit late, but it tries Nov 09 11:44:42 dos had 640kb of ram Nov 09 11:44:43 but really Nov 09 11:44:46 and it was working Nov 09 11:44:58 the reason to open source was to enable nokia to buy out the other shareholders in symbian Nov 09 11:44:58 with games and stuff Nov 09 11:45:10 it wasn't really for buzzword Nov 09 11:45:15 timeless_webchat: symbian will still be open source according to that article Nov 09 11:45:22 jacekowski: I think timeless was saying that it's all well and good Symbian having a 32bit address space when the hw it was running on had next to no ram Nov 09 11:45:28 jacekowski: i'm talking about 2008 Nov 09 11:45:49 lardman: yeah, i meant that, although i definitely didn't say it :) Nov 09 11:46:01 I read between the pixels Nov 09 11:46:03 well Nov 09 11:46:03 my belief is that when nokia wanted to get control over symbian Nov 09 11:46:10 n95 had more ram Nov 09 11:46:14 it had to promise to the other stakeholders it would open source Nov 09 11:46:23 and symbian Nov 09 11:46:33 ah I see Nov 09 11:46:33 anyway, it's 1:40pm Nov 09 11:46:41 i need to leave if i want to get food Nov 09 11:46:48 eat! Nov 09 11:46:50 nokia had a couple of strategies Nov 09 11:46:53 one was gaining control Nov 09 11:46:56 open sourcing enabled that Nov 09 11:47:00 another was Qt everywhere Nov 09 11:47:09 buying Trolltech and controlling Symbian enabled that Nov 09 11:48:18 note: i've never written apps for symbian Nov 09 11:48:33 otoh, i have had a patch committed to symbian :) Nov 09 11:48:57 patching what? Nov 09 11:49:28 Is here anybody who can solve a problem with package autobuilder? Nov 09 11:49:51 zap: sure. Nov 09 11:50:54 X-Fade: could you please look at the unzip package. I have submited a new version but it doesn't get into -devel after successfuly building Nov 09 11:51:28 oh... Nov 09 11:51:38 11. the compiler toolchain story wasn't always wonderful Nov 09 11:51:40 zap: you have to wait for the importer Nov 09 11:51:48 zap: did you get the build successful email? Nov 09 11:52:56 Sure, long ago Nov 09 11:53:14 In fact, I got it first for version -maemo1, then for -maemo2 Nov 09 11:53:57 How long ago? Nov 09 11:54:25 yesterday\ Nov 09 11:54:32 (-maemo2) Nov 09 11:54:39 Hrm Nov 09 11:54:41 Interesting. Nov 09 11:54:46 http://maemo.org/packages/view/unzip/ Nov 09 11:55:29 it could be because the version numeration is different from what was submited earlier by Daniel Mart?n Yerga Nov 09 11:55:51 this is a pure maemo package, he submited an adaptation of the debian package (1maemo1) Nov 09 11:56:57 Simple answer .. I'm not sure what's wrong. Nov 09 11:57:24 is 6.0-1maemoX > 6.0-maemoX Nov 09 11:57:33 no Nov 09 11:57:34 Yes Nov 09 11:57:40 I checked with dpkg --compare-versions Nov 09 11:57:45 maemo1 > 1maemo1 Nov 09 11:57:47 Really? Nov 09 11:57:52 Crazy Nov 09 11:57:52 (because 'm' > '1' I suppose) Nov 09 11:58:02 depends how the repo filler script works I guess Nov 09 11:58:04 huh, oh yeah Nov 09 11:58:20 I tried to submit version 1maemo2 Nov 09 11:58:24 it didnt get replaced as well Nov 09 11:58:47 that was rejected Nov 09 11:58:51 zap: yeah you created a version number mess. :) Nov 09 11:58:57 not me :] Nov 09 11:59:11 unzip always used the -maemo# scheme Nov 09 11:59:36 You need something which is > 6.0-1maemo1 at least. Nov 09 11:59:50 https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/unzip_6.0-maemo2/summary.log seems ok Nov 09 11:59:51 I submitted -1maemo2 Nov 09 12:00:00 it didn't worked Nov 09 12:00:09 -1maemo2 was rejected Nov 09 12:00:09 https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/unzip_6.0-1maemo2/ Nov 09 12:00:13 why? Nov 09 12:00:23 because there was a newer version in the repo already Nov 09 12:00:28 REJECTED: The same or newer version (unzip 6.0-maemo1) is already in extras-devel Nov 09 12:00:30 muhahah Nov 09 12:00:45 :\ Nov 09 12:00:51 http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/u/unzip/ Nov 09 12:00:55 it looks like it's in there to me Nov 09 12:01:23 hmm, but the package page doesn't list it Nov 09 12:02:00 so I can't promote it to -testing Nov 09 12:02:01 yes it does, down the bottom Nov 09 12:02:31 I can click on it, but there's no Promote button in there Nov 09 12:02:47 you've already promoted it to -testing afaict Nov 09 12:03:06 http://repository.maemo.org/extras-testing/pool/fremantle/free/u/unzip/ Nov 09 12:03:07 schizophrenia Nov 09 12:03:10 it isn't there Nov 09 12:03:39 well that's a different issue Nov 09 12:03:51 X-Fade: how often does the promoter run? Nov 09 12:04:13 lardman: twice per hour. Nov 09 12:04:18 hmm, it has been ~13h since it was promoted Nov 09 12:04:57 how do you see it has been promoted? Nov 09 12:05:09 It is probably because of the numbering scheme. Various tools don't like you switching. Nov 09 12:05:13 bottom of this page: http://maemo.org/packages/view/unzip/ Nov 09 12:05:20 ah, indeed Nov 09 12:06:23 well, I think dpkg --compare-versions is the ultimate judge? Nov 09 12:07:38 probably should be, but whatever scripts actually do the work may not agree with it Nov 09 12:07:44 incorrectly of course Nov 09 12:07:59 but we'll have to wait and see what X-Fade comes up with Nov 09 12:08:26 sure, he's my last hope :) Nov 09 12:17:52 zap: Let me just remove the 1maemo1 one and see what happens. Nov 09 12:19:20 Lunch, brb. Nov 09 12:21:03 ok so not going closed source at all then: http://www.symbian.org/news-and-media Nov 09 12:27:13 lardman: but with only nokia behind Symbian it will not evolve Nov 09 12:27:55 hrw: perhaps Nov 09 12:28:09 but apparently I was wrong, and it's supposed to be open but guided Nov 09 12:28:16 who knows! :) Nov 09 12:28:42 X-Fade: it just disappeared from package page :) Nov 09 12:29:14 lardman: but will it change anything? Nov 09 12:29:49 lardman: meego is also open, but harmattan (which is nokiameego) will be ~50% closed anyway Nov 09 12:31:49 :( Nov 09 12:32:07 nokeego (!OK-GO) Nov 09 12:32:20 so i see project "let's break into nokia's hq and steal all the hw specs for the n900" is still not go Nov 09 12:32:44 only if we wear aari jaaksi masks Nov 09 12:33:57 hey guys... any ideas why pulseaudio wouldn't came up after reboot? (n900) Nov 09 12:38:16 omg Nov 09 12:38:44 the error was: /home/user/.mafw-playlists/DEADJOE exists... god! Nov 09 12:45:25 DEADJOE is an invalid hex number, use DEADBEEF instead Nov 09 12:45:48 lardman: same will be with symbian phones. Nov 09 12:46:06 kerio: define 'hw specs' Nov 09 12:46:13 12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will) Nov 09 12:46:57 12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will) Nov 09 12:47:05 12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will) Nov 09 12:47:05 -- that's an advantage for someone who has to bankroll their phone os Nov 09 12:47:08 12. Symbian had to do its own driver development (in Linux, these days some hardware vendors do it, and for the other popular stuff someone else will) Nov 09 12:47:32 wtf Nov 09 12:47:42 :p Nov 09 12:47:50 * timeless_chatweb blames webchat Nov 09 12:47:52 copy and paste craze Nov 09 12:48:00 hrw: complete hardware specifications for each tiny chip in the n900 Nov 09 12:48:07 EEEEEVERYTHING Nov 09 12:49:32 kerio: forget it Nov 09 12:49:42 why? :( Nov 09 12:49:51 kerio: TI does not give complete specs neither Nov 09 12:50:19 ok, project "let's break into nokia and TI's HQs to get complete hardware specs for the n900" Nov 09 12:51:50 you'll end up having to break into some taiwanese/chinese company HQ too Nov 09 12:52:10 well i imagine them not being a real problem Nov 09 12:52:17 you probably just have to pay Nov 09 12:52:45 trying to get a libnet-dev package out before i head to work Nov 09 12:53:05 i don't know how to make the dh_* programs install man pages under /opt instead of /usr though :-/ Nov 09 12:53:37 even though i compile with --prefix=/opt Nov 09 12:56:54 i might just release this to extras-devel as it is and try to fix the doc situation later Nov 09 13:05:14 Gorroth: man pages generally get killed by the install process, so i'm not sure it matters Nov 09 13:07:55 what do you mean? Nov 09 13:08:03 i can install man pages Nov 09 13:08:11 it's just they go to /usr instead of /opt Nov 09 13:08:47 Gorroth: cat /usr/share/man/README Nov 09 13:09:43 zap: the purged thing? i guess that means that when you do an install, the installer strips out all man pages? Nov 09 13:10:27 hmm, somehow i got squid to install man pages to /opt.... let me see how i did that Nov 09 13:21:17 hrw: apologies for the slow response Nov 09 13:22:17 hrw: yeah, well that's what I was wondering, seems like both platforms are pretty similar in terms of openness with both having various disadvantages and advantages Nov 09 13:22:54 the main plus for Linux being the availability of existing code, though the need to tailor it for resource constrained devices is a disadvantage imo Nov 09 13:23:00 anyway, /me heads for lunch Nov 09 13:23:28 well, µClinux is opensource too Nov 09 13:24:39 also how is the n900 resource-limited? Nov 09 13:24:50 my old computer that ran debian was slower Nov 09 13:24:58 and had about the same ram Nov 09 13:25:02 and less hd space Nov 09 13:26:21 okay, uploaded libnet Nov 09 13:26:24 hope it builds Nov 09 13:26:25 let me reply when I get home Nov 09 13:26:34 but really the N900 does suffer under the memory load Nov 09 13:26:41 oh of course Nov 09 13:26:48 but the solution is to use less ram Nov 09 13:26:49 duh Nov 09 13:26:50 The first pc I remember owning, and I wasn't an early starter or anything, so this isn't that geeky, was 33mhz with 500mb of hdd. It's not even funny how much more powerful than that the n900 is. Nov 09 13:26:55 yeah, the n900 does suffer under memory pressure :-/ Nov 09 13:26:56 so I suppose what I should say is that modern sw, which is what people want, is not designed to be memory efficient Nov 09 13:26:58 necessarily Nov 09 13:27:39 Linux (and by that I mean more than just the kernel) has certainly been designed for desktop computers with desktop HDD and RAM Nov 09 13:27:43 that's the issue I see Nov 09 13:27:53 anyway, will bbiab Nov 09 13:28:06 gecko is the thing that really eats up the ram Nov 09 13:28:11 kerio: it is hard to use less ram when after running few apps real ram ends in n900 Nov 09 13:28:22 so i blame timeless Nov 09 13:28:51 ? Nov 09 13:28:55 oh Nov 09 13:28:55 kerio: run! Nov 09 13:28:57 well Nov 09 13:28:59 * timeless_chatweb shrugs Nov 09 13:29:29 i mean, i love gecko, it's a really awesome html renderer and it's a cute animal too Nov 09 13:29:35 heh Nov 09 13:29:44 but there is a reason other handheld platforms use webkit for their browser Nov 09 13:29:52 the system has *lots* of running processes Nov 09 13:29:59 PULSEAUDIOOOOOOOOO Nov 09 13:30:06 linux desktops don't typically have as may, especially older desktops Nov 09 13:30:08 almost forgot about that Nov 09 13:30:14 hmm, where is that page that says if the autobuilder is building your things or not? Nov 09 13:30:35 timeless_chatweb: well, my old desktop ran two users, one on kde and the other on gnome at the same time Nov 09 13:30:40 with 384mb of ram Nov 09 13:31:15 oh, whoops! it built already, and i just submitted again Nov 09 13:31:28 well, anyway, now libnet-dev is available in extras-devel or should be soon Nov 09 13:31:43 kerio: during UDS-N I met nokia guy which had 'nokia browser' based on webkit Nov 09 13:31:51 timeless_chatweb: wait, what Nov 09 13:31:52 Gorroth: libnet 1.0.x or 1.2.x? Nov 09 13:31:57 what processes? Nov 09 13:32:01 hrw: i started with 1.1.2.1 Nov 09 13:32:18 hrw: i'll update it after i get ettercap uploaded Nov 09 13:32:23 hrw: just working now with what i know works Nov 09 13:32:35 hmm Nov 09 13:32:44 how do I cut out two lines from output? Nov 09 13:34:16 grr Nov 09 13:34:20 where was i? Nov 09 13:34:34 kerio: your computer had a 50% head start on memory vs the n900's 256mb Nov 09 13:34:51 and ran gnome AND kde Nov 09 13:34:54 (with massive swapping ofc) Nov 09 13:35:08 the swap backing we have is also probably slower than a hdd from 3 years ago Nov 09 13:35:18 I don't know if this matters, but AFAIK the n900 got just a 32-bit bus for the RAM Nov 09 13:35:27 ? Nov 09 13:35:55 moder pc's have bigger busses for the ram right? Nov 09 13:36:00 *modern Nov 09 13:36:18 yes Nov 09 13:36:27 so not only does the N900 got less ram, but also slower ram Nov 09 13:36:40 than the 386mb ram box probably had/had Nov 09 13:36:58 The swap backing is in some ways slower, some ways faster Nov 09 13:37:03 It's not consistent. Nov 09 13:37:17 In principle, it's _lotS_ faster if it's dealt with well. Nov 09 13:37:21 But it's not. Nov 09 13:37:26 nvm, figured that out Nov 09 13:37:44 but, if I have lines with text and numbers, how do I filter out the text? Nov 09 13:37:44 sda Nov 09 13:37:44 sda1 Nov 09 13:37:50 I want only sda1 to show Nov 09 13:38:01 or sda[1..100] Nov 09 13:38:14 Regular expressions Nov 09 13:38:21 MohammadAG: what is the text? Nov 09 13:38:26 MohammadAG: egrep sda[0-9]* Nov 09 13:38:39 e?grep? Nov 09 13:39:14 but if you're thinking of parsing dmesg output to get the partitions that's nasty :P Nov 09 13:39:42 nah, that's stupid, cat /proc/partitions | awk '{print $4}' | awk '{ if ( NR > 2 ) { print } }' Nov 09 13:39:44 muhaha Nov 09 13:40:08 hrw, didn't work btw, I have to take into account sdb too Nov 09 13:41:04 MohammadAG: egrep sd[ab][0-9]* Nov 09 13:41:24 awk 'NR>2{print $4}' /proc/partitions Nov 09 13:41:27 MohammadAG Nov 09 13:41:34 14:37 hrw@home:~$ ll /dev|egrep sd[a-l][0-9]* Nov 09 13:41:36 lulz Nov 09 13:42:20 tail +3 Nov 09 13:42:22 mwahahahaha Nov 09 13:42:32 thanks SpeedEvil, still stuck at the sd* part Nov 09 13:42:38 what sd part? Nov 09 13:42:46 I'm not understanding what output you're wanting Nov 09 13:43:00 I want to list partitions, not blocks Nov 09 13:43:06 MohammadAG: with your hostmode2 kernel, does your camera app still work? Nov 09 13:43:23 alterego, why wouldn't it Nov 09 13:43:28 unless you have fcam Nov 09 13:43:44 awk 'NR>2&&$4~"[0-9]$"{print $4}' /proc/partitions Nov 09 13:43:47 MohammadAG: I had to reflash stock PR1.3 kernel this morning because the stock camera app wouldn't work and GPS seemed to fail to work with my app. Nov 09 13:44:04 alterego, fcamera? Nov 09 13:44:15 as for GPS, it works Nov 09 13:44:24 I learned that the hard way Nov 09 13:44:31 was testing smscon from a classmate's device Nov 09 13:44:33 If this is the third or successive line, and the fourth field matches the regex (has the last char a number) print the fourth field Nov 09 13:44:40 This is GPS specifically through using Qt mobility. Nov 09 13:44:42 ten minutes later, his inbox had 10 messages from mine Nov 09 13:44:50 The Maps app works fine. Nov 09 13:44:55 alterego, err, that's userspace Nov 09 13:45:20 MohammadAG: actually - you can drop the first test - as the first two lines do not have a number in the fourth filed Nov 09 13:45:22 Well, I'll have to investigate further, but I had to reflash stock PR1.3 kernel only and everything start working again. Nov 09 13:45:26 no idea then Nov 09 13:45:36 SpeedEvil, thanks! Nov 09 13:47:36 so in theory, this should work right? Nov 09 13:47:42 for partitions in "`awk '$4~"[0-9]$"{print $4}' /proc/partitions`" Nov 09 13:47:42 do mkdir /media/$partitions Nov 09 13:47:42 mount /dev/$partitions /media/$partitions Nov 09 13:47:42 done Nov 09 13:49:13 * SpeedEvil ponders Nov 09 13:49:45 mkdir -p would probably be a good idea Nov 09 13:49:56 indeed, forgot about that Nov 09 13:50:29 Also - do you care about USB sticks being differentiable? Nov 09 13:52:05 hmm, shouldn't the default file manager using the partition name anyways? Nov 09 13:52:40 since it shows WD PASSPORT even if I mount the HDD on /media/folder Nov 09 13:53:45 what's the omap-aes driver? Nov 09 14:01:25 aes sounds like an encryption thingie Nov 09 14:02:08 so possibly a driver for the on-chip encryption hw? Nov 09 14:02:10 That is a hardware aes encrypt/decrypt processor. Nov 09 14:02:46 afaik there is also hardware md5/sha1 in there. Nov 09 14:02:48 The omap-aes driver is the driver which uses the hardware acceleration which is built-in the omap cpu. Nov 09 14:03:16 where is this driver? Nov 09 14:03:23 on-device? Nov 09 14:03:23 And a hardware random generator is also in there. Nov 09 14:04:21 someone fixed the driver Nov 09 14:04:26 lardman: I have just posted the fix http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2010-November/027877.html Nov 09 14:04:29 ah good stuff Nov 09 14:04:45 so it builds against 2.6.28(?) Nov 09 14:05:42 Yes, since I took the part which belongs into the kernel normally (platform driver) and merged it into the module. But you will need to update Nolo, or it will reboot your device. Nov 09 14:06:24 X-Fade: yep, but docs how to use it are not public Nov 09 14:06:44 X-Fade: and somebody only released driver for aes part of it Nov 09 14:06:52 MohammadAG: we have to talk Nov 09 14:07:09 jacekowski: No, the package also include sha1-md5. 3DES is missing. Nov 09 14:10:13 jacekowski: I missed the platform driver for the sha1-md5 driver on the first version I sent you. Nov 09 14:10:20 does anyone know off hand who the author of the module is? Did it come from Ti's open sourcing venture? Nov 09 14:11:12 lardman: Dmitry Kasatkin Nov 09 14:11:59 Nokia then Nov 09 14:12:21 Yes Nov 09 14:13:05 But I still miss an engine for openssl, to make use of it in userspace. I now use it to encrypt the swap on the N900. Nov 09 14:13:31 i don't get why you encrypt swap Nov 09 14:13:36 there is nothing there Nov 09 14:13:49 i mean, all passwords and stuff should be mlocked anyways Nov 09 14:14:18 I'd want to accelerate ssh Nov 09 14:14:41 Because I can? :-D Don't know, I think it is a habit. Nov 09 14:19:29 ShadowJK: Yes, I hope for a real engine for openssl. Nov 09 14:27:00 does ssh even use openssl? Nov 09 14:27:15 yes Nov 09 14:29:48 Yes, you will need to force openssl to do so. Padlock as an example: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=710243 Nov 09 14:45:53 has anyone here moved the OS to the external card ? Nov 09 14:46:09 on a n810 i am talking about Nov 09 14:47:42 gpgp: my N810 runs Gentoo on an external card Nov 09 14:48:10 wow, i am way behind on this device Nov 09 14:48:51 i read a how to to move meamo to the ext card , wondering if it was still current. Nov 09 14:49:23 luke-jr_: did you follow a guide or are you just smart ? Nov 09 14:49:39 gpgp: what would you need a guide for? Nov 09 14:49:57 Not too smart if he's using Gentoo :P Nov 09 14:50:00 ooOOooooo Nov 09 14:50:17 alterego: as if there's anything else for N8x0 Nov 09 14:50:18 i am getting old, cant remember stuff like i used to Nov 09 14:50:25 Maemo is dead. Mer is dead. Nov 09 14:50:31 nobody else supports N8x0 anymore Nov 09 14:50:50 Well, we're trying to from the MeeGo front. Nov 09 14:51:02 i know, its just recently i found a new use for my device. it still has the same probs it always did, too slow , not enough ram etc Nov 09 14:51:08 At least, the desire is there anyway .. Nov 09 14:51:21 gpgp: RAM isn't too bad if you run it CLI Nov 09 14:51:33 what is the functionality of running geentoo on it ? Nov 09 14:51:52 i want to use it as a bike computer Nov 09 14:52:04 maybe with arduino input ? Nov 09 14:53:34 gpgp: the same functionality Gentoo has anywhere Nov 09 14:55:53 i guess i will stick with meamo but on the ext card for more room. thanks luke-jr_ Nov 09 14:56:11 Maemo is dead. Nov 09 14:56:35 ooooh boy Nov 09 14:56:55 but it has the basic functionality i need. it is not like the n810 is going to grow into better hardware Nov 09 14:57:59 it also has security holes, etc Nov 09 14:59:26 not too worried about security on a bicycle computer really Nov 09 14:59:47 * luke-jr_ will h4x u when he drives by Nov 09 14:59:56 just to prove a point Nov 09 15:00:06 oh my god he could find out my average speed Nov 09 15:00:28 its way more sinister than that, he could also get your total distance travelled. Nov 09 15:00:55 perhaps point of origin, that could be bbad Nov 09 15:03:02 anyone else put other distros on it ? Nov 09 15:34:59 Hi Nov 09 15:59:41 Weird, Nov 09 15:59:54 My app is taking 90% CPU and it's not actually really doing anything. Nov 09 16:00:59 Should just be processing an event that occurs every second Nov 09 16:01:29 alterego, N900/IO? Nov 09 16:01:48 Nope, should be doing much IO Nov 09 16:01:52 ~shouldn't. Nov 09 16:03:46 alterego: sleep probably shows up as 100%... Nov 09 16:04:00 Erm. don't think so :P Nov 09 16:05:10 well, probably not... Nov 09 16:05:35 i thought that i had seen such with shell script sleep on n900 Nov 09 16:05:57 It's rendering Nov 09 16:06:20 Think I need to look into the optimizations I made on my widgets again. Nov 09 16:10:03 * alterego stops the animation on his suspected CPU killing widget ^.^ Nov 09 16:10:11 X-Fade: have you looked at the unzip problem? Nov 09 16:10:41 < 1% before events start happening. Nov 09 16:11:13 zap: Yes, but it isn't a quick fix. I can't pinpoint the exact cause of the issue yet. Nov 09 16:11:29 X-Fade: thank you, I'll wait Nov 09 16:12:09 * MohammadAG sighs - need to find a way to get HAM to recognize my damn repo Nov 09 16:12:26 Hrm, ~20% improvement. Nov 09 16:12:26 I'm seeing on Nokia's repos, maybe I should add that? Nov 09 16:12:34 Which is actually what I would have guessed. Nov 09 16:12:44 So 60% CPU usage :/ Nov 09 16:12:44 MohammadAG: Yes, maybe that helps. Nov 09 16:13:11 avg 50% it would seem. Nov 09 16:13:27 X-Fade, can I upload an older version of a package? Nov 09 16:13:59 MohammadAG: Yes, you have direct access to the queue. So you can do that. Nov 09 16:14:14 X-Fade, note the "older" Nov 09 16:14:26 MohammadAG: Yeah, don't use the builder ;) Nov 09 16:14:38 so it won't be REJECTED then? Nov 09 16:14:51 * MohammadAG makes version 0 of community package Nov 09 16:15:07 MohammadAG: I don't think there is a in your queue. Nov 09 16:15:17 MohammadAG: But what would that solve? Nov 09 16:15:19 any .service file experts? Nov 09 16:15:46 X-Fade, it would allow users to see what they're upgrading, instead of the current way Nov 09 16:16:13 MohammadAG: I can wipe the repo if needed. Nov 09 16:16:32 i.e install version 0 of community package, launch HAM to allow the user to update with a UI Nov 09 16:16:55 MohammadAG: That won't help anything? Nov 09 16:17:21 it will, the current way involves opening a terminal and forcing installations Nov 09 16:17:21 MohammadAG: The problem you have is that existing packages have been installed from another package domain. Nov 09 16:17:41 X-Fade, different problem :P Nov 09 16:17:50 MohammadAG: More important though. Nov 09 16:17:56 indeed Nov 09 16:18:04 just wondering though Nov 09 16:18:11 MohammadAG: If you can't fix that, then everything else you do is useless. Nov 09 16:18:27 is there a way to launch something via DBus without having an icon? Nov 09 16:18:45 Heh, I can decrease CPU usage by about 20% if I decrease the property animations' duration Nov 09 16:19:24 X-Fade, what about removing Nokia's domains? Nov 09 16:19:34 if all fails of course Nov 09 16:19:35 MohammadAG: No, don't do that ;) Nov 09 16:20:05 it would be really useful if HAM devs could assist us Nov 09 16:20:15 since the configuration changed from Diablo to Fremantle Nov 09 16:20:15 MohammadAG: I'd find out how package domains are identified. If it is the level, then take the same number. Nov 09 16:20:46 MohammadAG: We need to find out where the package->repo relation is stored. Nov 09 16:21:18 hmm, in the configuration file? :) Nov 09 16:21:19 hildon-application-manager-config dump Nov 09 16:21:36 MohammadAG: But try the certified thing first. Nov 09 16:22:22 hmm, no, that's not it Nov 09 16:23:33 the latest community-ssu-enabler already has it Nov 09 16:24:04 we need HAM's devs, or someone who can read C (properly) Nov 09 16:24:21 MohammadAG: Marius should know. Nov 09 16:24:45 Lucas? He saw no problems with it Nov 09 16:24:51 what i can use for fordward a call to take it in the pc when i am at home ? Nov 09 16:24:57 MohammadAG: Ask him on the list, he should read it. Usually wants to help. Nov 09 16:25:00 ( asterisk install in the n900 ? ) Nov 09 16:25:29 MohammadAG: No, Marius Vollmer. Nov 09 16:25:38 X-Fade, http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2010-November/027849.html Nov 09 16:25:41 oh Nov 09 16:25:42 i maybe i could use pulseaudio tu reroute the mic/output Nov 09 16:25:43 ? Nov 09 16:25:47 MohammadAG: He designed the whole thing, so :) Nov 09 16:26:37 X-Fade, also, one more thing, when replying to mailing lists, does something have to be set in your client's settings? Nov 09 16:26:54 MohammadAG: Only the right email address which is subscribed. Nov 09 16:26:59 modest doesn't seem to work properly for that, replied to a message once and it made a new topic Nov 09 16:27:02 m-vo is a helpful chap, though Nov 09 16:27:04 MohammadAG: Reply to all usually works. Some clients have reply to list. Nov 09 16:27:11 MohammadAG: Using what client? Nov 09 16:27:14 and gmail.com? Nov 09 16:27:40 MohammadAG: reply-all works fine there. Nov 09 16:28:17 will reply then :) Nov 09 16:28:28 Jaffa, used thunderbird for a while, then went back to webmail Nov 09 16:28:42 MohammadAG: Please do, he really should know. Nov 09 16:28:42 Gmail works fine for me in terms of "reply all" and not breaking the list threading. Nov 09 16:29:11 * X-Fade uses a labs plugin to 'reply to all' by default Nov 09 16:29:53 does thunderbird support IMAP Idle? Nov 09 16:30:36 My Conversations app is bugged, It's showing a weird scrollbar and touch scrolling is not working. Can someone help me about it please? Screenshot: http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png Strace: http://pastebin.com/rcvvYa3r Nov 09 16:31:08 bbl, dinner. Nov 09 16:31:25 Aranel, did you try yesterday's suggestions? Nov 09 16:32:04 MohammadAG51: gconftool, reinstalling hildon alpha/beta, reboot? all 3 of them. Nov 09 16:32:23 MohammadAG51: I'm not sure about the gconftool way, there was TONS of entries :| Nov 09 16:35:13 there were Nov 09 16:35:36 yeah, there were. Nov 09 16:41:49 lol strace output makes me feel quite awkward. It just looks like some ancient language, and I don't recognize any word from that language. Nov 09 16:42:13 it's just showing syscalls Nov 09 16:42:17 at least you could say that would make you look nerdy :p Nov 09 16:42:41 but i would personally add some stuff to it Nov 09 16:43:03 like showing file name as well as handle for read/close/something like that Nov 09 16:43:21 haha It would make me look nerdy, If I could understand anything about it, so I could make a "smart" face gesture instead of "I'm so screwed" gesture. Nov 09 16:43:54 jacekowski: tried that one too (http://pastebin.com/1rCi0U6K) there's some read entries Nov 09 16:44:07 with really weird numbers and symbols Nov 09 16:44:50 trust me.. you haven't been through "I'm so screwed" state :) I've visited boot loops 3 times in two days in an attempt to restore my n900 setup.. it'll become my frankenstein project in the making Nov 09 16:45:58 psycho_oreos: oops. yeah It looks worse :p Nov 09 16:46:55 but maybe you had an idea about what you are doing :p I'm just trying my luck to fix this issue, and I'm not lucky. Nov 09 16:52:31 not really, I'm tired and pissed off, looks like frankenstein doesn't want to be reborn :/ flashing for the 4th time in two days Nov 09 16:53:49 psycho_oreos: what exactly is wrong with it? Nov 09 16:53:59 have you flashed both eMMC and the rootfs? Nov 09 16:56:07 Aranel, shouldn't have symlinked /var/log to /opt/var/log, it caused X.org to display nothing upon rebooting.. Since then I've used dar to restore setup but that has caused device to malfunction and boot loops, then I retried copying specific directories, no dice, device rebooted automatically and now it just doesn't want to boot up.. again bootloops so now I'll have to reflash it for the 4th time and probably will have to start from scratch Nov 09 16:56:18 hmm... shouldn't I be ablre to update to pr1.3 from the phone itself ? Nov 09 16:56:22 wmarone, no need, just doing rootfs only Nov 09 16:56:38 yes via HAM Nov 09 16:57:00 * Aranel I'm changing my question, since nobody is able to answer it: can I track filesystem reads (which config file is opened) for an application (rtcom-messaging-ui) ? Nov 09 16:57:26 lsof might be able to do it Nov 09 16:57:33 svuorela: you are able to do it. Nov 09 16:57:41 psycho_oreos: so you keep breaking your device? Nov 09 16:57:53 psycho_oreos: maybe you can try meego rescue initrd? Nov 09 16:58:15 Aranel, was about to suggest lsof but that would take a snapshot rather than constant and live tracking Nov 09 16:58:26 Aranel: if you know which files you're interested in, inotify is simple Nov 09 16:58:31 wmarone, currently when its not what I want it to do Nov 09 16:58:39 hmm Nov 09 16:58:45 Aranel, it's a CSS issue I guess Nov 09 16:58:55 Aranel: what do I need to do to become able to do it? Nov 09 16:58:57 not sure where rtcom-messaging-ui's CSS template is Nov 09 16:59:01 though tmo should knwo Nov 09 16:59:03 knwo Nov 09 16:59:04 sigh Nov 09 16:59:08 know* Nov 09 16:59:11 nope I don't. Conversations app is loading some weird config files from somewhere, and displaying a scrollbar, messing up everything. Nov 09 16:59:40 CSS? Nov 09 16:59:46 it's using html for this stuff? Nov 09 16:59:50 Aranel: possible to run it with strace? Nov 09 17:00:11 MohammadAG51: it's /usr/share/rtcom-messaging-ui/html. Tried changing them, tried getting original ones (if mine is corrupt) from my friend and copying them, tried installing mods on them. Didn't help with the scrollbar issue. Nov 09 17:00:33 strace -f rtcom-messaging-ui 2>&1 | grep open Nov 09 17:00:46 this will give you list of files it's opening Nov 09 17:00:46 ieatlint: done that but I cant understand anything on that output :p there's some reads and some opens, with numbers and symbols on it. Nov 09 17:01:00 what jacekowski just said Nov 09 17:01:38 in fact, I tried that one too :| It's not showing up all of them, for example, it's not showing up the HTML/CSS files. Nov 09 17:02:09 according to strace open() only 5 files opened, 2 of them are databases, 3 of them are icons/useless stuff. Nov 09 17:02:33 perhaps it's accessing the info through an api, and doesn't open the files itself Nov 09 17:02:44 svuorela: just try upgrading via Application Manager, I guess? Nov 09 17:03:20 Aranel: yeah. it says no. use pc suite. Nov 09 17:03:32 maybe. So I want to track whole filesystem read calls, to find out which files are read when using conversations. Nov 09 17:03:55 svuorela: you need at least 40~ megabytes of free rootfs space and you should remove any conflicting packages. Nov 09 17:04:01 no Nov 09 17:04:04 not read calls Nov 09 17:04:05 open calls Nov 09 17:04:14 read calls are not really as important Nov 09 17:04:15 oops, open calls :) Nov 09 17:05:58 here's the open calls (from strace): http://pastebin.com/G30F0eKL Nov 09 17:06:37 It's not mentioning any UI elements, HTML/CSS files, anything. I should track all opened files for.. 20 seconds? Nov 09 17:08:36 Aranel: I have around 65 M free Nov 09 17:09:03 Aranel: have you added -f to strace commandline? Nov 09 17:09:07 svuorela: then you should take care of conflicting packages. Mostly they are games; like brainparty,openarena etc. Nov 09 17:09:32 jacekowski: oh.. guess not :| Nov 09 17:09:45 jacekowski: what is the exact arguments I should add? -o , -f and -p? Nov 09 17:10:00 -f Nov 09 17:10:31 hi, i have fMMS installed, and my device always choose the MMS connection, how can i change it, that the device automatically chooses the other internet connection? Nov 09 17:10:55 Glaubenskrieger: change the mode to havoc Nov 09 17:11:00 in fmms Nov 09 17:11:16 it would be nice to get specs for rapuyama Nov 09 17:11:23 thx Nov 09 17:11:34 because i'm willing to bet that rapuyama can have two data connection open at the same time Nov 09 17:13:58 jacekowski: http://pastebin.com/8KQQ0yEH now some new entries added, but they don't look like config files. Nov 09 17:46:20 so, my earlier build of libnet-dev didn't go well. i accidentally submitted twice while it was building (not sure why autobuilder doesn't check for that) Nov 09 17:46:46 anyway, i resubmitted an update. so, it installs correctly on the n900 now Nov 09 17:47:23 it is in extras-devel. the final step before i submit ettercap in a little while :) Nov 09 17:48:31 * slonopotamus yawns Nov 09 17:49:07 idd Nov 09 17:53:19 morning #maemo Nov 09 17:53:34 * javispedro does evil laughter again Nov 09 18:02:51 lo javispedro Nov 09 18:05:06 [Repost] How can I track whole filesystem open calls on Maemo? Nov 09 18:05:14 inotify? Nov 09 18:05:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inotify Nov 09 18:05:39 but I don't know which ones I should track, does it work without knowing it? Nov 09 18:06:49 Aranel: strace on all running processes with forks follow enabled? Nov 09 18:06:59 Aranel: why you want that? Nov 09 18:07:06 you'd need to do quite a lot of logic to track all files, then set up inotify watches for all of them.. Nov 09 18:07:07 slonopotamus: how can I do that? can you give me an example command? Nov 09 18:07:24 Moo, all Nov 09 18:07:29 well, my conversations app is kinda messed up because of a corrupt config file, but I don't know which one. Nov 09 18:07:31 javispedro, heffalump: heya Nov 09 18:07:43 hello RST38h Nov 09 18:07:44 RST38h: ohai Nov 09 18:08:31 so I'm going to track filesystem for open calls, and find out which files are opening on Conversations start-up. Nov 09 18:08:41 strace is what you probably want Nov 09 18:08:43 Aranel: there's going to be like, half a billion open calls. Nov 09 18:08:57 Aranel: you really should try to reduce the set of processes you will be monitoring Nov 09 18:08:57 Aranel: strace -f -p Nov 09 18:09:31 slonopotamus: tried that, gave me some of open calls, not all of them. (no html/css files included, or conf files) Nov 09 18:09:49 html/css may have been preloaded at startup Nov 09 18:09:56 Aranel: there's microb proccess running for rendering Nov 09 18:10:04 Aranel: prestarted Nov 09 18:10:26 I did killall rtcom-messaging-ui Nov 09 18:10:31 then strace'd it. Nov 09 18:11:03 Aranel: /usr/sbin/browserd -s -n browserui Nov 09 18:11:21 "Mystery Missile Launch Seen off Calif. Coast" Nov 09 18:11:22 Aranel: that thing renders dialogs afaik Nov 09 18:11:29 http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/09/national/main7036716.shtml Nov 09 18:11:35 lol Nov 09 18:11:39 javispedro: shit we are reading the same rss Nov 09 18:11:45 RST38h: aka slashdot? Nov 09 18:11:51 Fucking SYCHRONOUSLY Nov 09 18:12:02 slonopotamus: oh, maybe I misunderstood you. Does it work with Conversations app? see: http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png I want to remove that scrollbar, and It's showing up because of a config file. Nov 09 18:12:05 javispedro: nah, I am no longer reading slashdot directly Nov 09 18:12:13 well I was =) Nov 09 18:12:16 javispedro: but it is in my google reader list indeed Nov 09 18:16:52 google reader is teh awesum Nov 09 18:16:56 unlimited 3g sucks battery too fast :( Nov 09 18:17:11 heh Nov 09 18:17:18 which provider, which plan? Nov 09 18:17:24 Sue them! Nov 09 18:17:29 It's limited by battery. Nov 09 18:17:30 slonopotamus: yeah. im Nov 09 18:17:33 That's gotta be illegal. Nov 09 18:17:35 oops Nov 09 18:17:57 strap a big 12V car battery on your device :) Nov 09 18:18:00 RST38h: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/e3gf3/a_missile_was_launched_off_the_california_coast/c14zqpm Nov 09 18:18:05 RST38h: see first comment Nov 09 18:18:05 RST38h: megafon, basic (128kbps for 220rubles (~$7) per month) Nov 09 18:18:08 slonopotamus: yeah. i'm gonna buy one of those big ass n900 batteries to handle heavy use Nov 09 18:18:53 RST38h: they have several plans up to 7mbps for $50/month Nov 09 18:19:05 slonopotamus: 128kbps is eGPRS speed. Nov 09 18:19:24 RST38h: it's artificially limited Nov 09 18:19:37 slonopotamus: so, simplyforce your phone to 2.5g and save on battery :) Nov 09 18:19:40 RST38h: but still, $7/month Nov 09 18:19:45 tmo will give me 24 hr unlimited for 1.49 usd per each day i buy it Nov 09 18:19:53 pas as you go! :) Nov 09 18:19:58 pay* Nov 09 18:20:01 slonopotamus: I pay $10-$15 a month for unlim speed :) Nov 09 18:20:01 RST38h: how i do that? Nov 09 18:20:07 i can't type on the nOPP Nov 09 18:20:13 n900!!!! Nov 09 18:20:16 slonopotamus: MTS Internet+ (4.25r per MB) Nov 09 18:20:19 :) Nov 09 18:20:37 slonopotamus: There is an applet that lets you force phone to 2g or 3g or auto Nov 09 18:20:40 I can type at around 25-30wpm on n900....... Nov 09 18:20:57 really? you must practice on it a lot Nov 09 18:21:05 RST38h: meh, i spent around $30 when used plan with price like yours Nov 09 18:21:17 Gorroth: my laptop died. I used it for a week Nov 09 18:21:21 IRCing Nov 09 18:21:25 slono: but then, I am not running it around the clock :) Nov 09 18:21:26 ah ha Nov 09 18:21:46 RST38h: i use it around 2.5h a day Nov 09 18:21:54 I just fire up the ole E90 when I need to type properly while mobile \o/ Nov 09 18:22:17 slonopo: same here Nov 09 18:22:20 SpeedEvil: which irc client do you use on it? i'm using irssi, but i have to keep the xterm fonts small to make it usable Nov 09 18:22:26 xchat Nov 09 18:22:40 oh, i should try that Nov 09 18:25:23 * nidO bangs head on desk over ovi suite Nov 09 18:28:35 "We need to know how to decompile the code to recompile for our processors because the bytecode will not be compatible as is" Nov 09 18:28:46 * javispedro sighs Nov 09 18:29:22 … Nov 09 18:29:29 that's not exactly true for arm Nov 09 18:29:33 I know. Nov 09 18:29:37 it's plain bullshit. Nov 09 18:29:49 that is what happens when you put tech info a thread full of lemmings. Nov 09 18:29:50 where have you found it? Nov 09 18:29:54 xda developers Nov 09 18:29:58 link Nov 09 18:30:18 thing is that it's true for architectures with variable opcode size Nov 09 18:30:31 ... aka not ARM. Nov 09 18:30:31 like x86, arm with thumb Nov 09 18:30:52 slono: have to note though that we have got wifi at workplace Nov 09 18:31:07 javispedro: source of the quote? Nov 09 18:31:11 with arm, plain bruteforce decoding of opcodes and then assembling again will work, but it has downsides, like no way to modify it Nov 09 18:31:25 Vratha: hi Nov 09 18:31:30 hi Nov 09 18:31:32 you need inteligent disassembler to do any work Nov 09 18:31:50 jacekowski: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=8886936&postcount=14 Nov 09 18:31:51 * RST38h loudly wonders if anyone has heard of dynamic recompilation Nov 09 18:31:58 well i am also gorroth. just testing xchat on the n900 Nov 09 18:32:31 rotfl Nov 09 18:32:36 that's bs Nov 09 18:32:40 snapdragon == arm Nov 09 18:32:45 javispedro: are these pleasant people trying to run Snapdragon code on a Samsungor somethign? :) Nov 09 18:33:06 RST38h: let's say I found the thread "by chance", and I'm quite laughing at their approach. Nov 09 18:33:34 javispedro: ARMv7 willrun ARMv6 code, but you still have to precheck it for system instructions Nov 09 18:33:38 javispedro: bytecode is compatible, it's just instruction set is different Nov 09 18:33:56 javispedro: To run ARMv7 on ARMv6 you do need code analysis Nov 09 18:34:03 which can be made automatic Nov 09 18:34:09 not really Nov 09 18:34:11 and static Nov 09 18:34:22 static will fail Nov 09 18:34:36 static code analysis ussually fails Nov 09 18:34:37 jacekowski: this is a GNU/Linux system. Not some assembly developer's playground. Nov 09 18:34:51 javispedro: it really better be dynamic Nov 09 18:35:01 javispedro: but yes, you can probably do a lot of it statically Nov 09 18:35:11 and cache the result Nov 09 18:35:41 javispedro: disassembler have to run all possible code paths and then replace all problematic instructions with alternatives Nov 09 18:35:59 javispedro: but then adresses will shift Nov 09 18:36:12 or you do more complicated stuff with codecaves Nov 09 18:36:43 that's why runtime recompilation would be the best option Nov 09 18:36:53 or you just trap SIGILLs and hope they do not use uxth much =) Nov 09 18:37:05 yep Nov 09 18:37:19 just catch illegal instructions and emulate them Nov 09 18:37:50 sort of like a virtualisation Nov 09 18:38:27 catch illegal, emulate, and patch, so you only do it once? Nov 09 18:38:40 you can't shift adresses Nov 09 18:38:47 you can optimise it with lookup tables Nov 09 18:38:49 ah Nov 09 18:38:50 so it will remember Nov 09 18:38:57 what is supposed to be executed there Nov 09 18:39:07 so it will not have to reanalyse opcode Nov 09 18:39:22 so penalty will be minimal Nov 09 18:39:31 sort of like JIT compilation Nov 09 18:39:33 kernel entry Nov 09 18:39:44 which may not acceptable for uxth Nov 09 18:39:48 *be Nov 09 18:40:33 I'd personally just replace all instances of new opcodes with BL to emulated functions in a fixed address. Nov 09 18:40:41 statically, pre binary launch. Nov 09 18:40:56 how do you know that it's an opcode not data? Nov 09 18:41:05 you can, statically. Nov 09 18:41:18 Folks, have you actually considered if all this stuff is worth it? Nov 09 18:41:21 because I'm making the assumption this is not a assembly developer's playground Nov 09 18:41:22 In the above case, I mean Nov 09 18:41:30 javispedro: wrong assumption Nov 09 18:41:36 javispedro: it will not work Nov 09 18:41:54 and what if program is compressed with UPX Nov 09 18:41:56 I know there are counter examples. why it won't work for 90% of the code? Nov 09 18:41:57 or polymorphic Nov 09 18:42:14 is there a polymorphic or upx compressed program in the Maemo base image? Nov 09 18:42:34 sort of, no Nov 09 18:42:37 my point. Nov 09 18:42:44 fmtxd will not run with simple static analysis Nov 09 18:42:51 why? Nov 09 18:43:04 because parts of code are unreachable Nov 09 18:43:42 pointers to functions are passed to gtk and gtk will call them Nov 09 18:43:45 or dbus Nov 09 18:43:47 i'm not sure Nov 09 18:43:55 good point. you'd need to know about all external deps. Nov 09 18:44:13 that's why runtime analysis is better Nov 09 18:44:18 because you cover all scenarios Nov 09 18:44:31 "statically" and "all possible code paths" is the Halting Problem. Nov 09 18:44:41 I know. Nov 09 18:44:42 and you don't have to mess up with sections Nov 09 18:44:59 you can always fsck up any static analysis Nov 09 18:45:48 ie for ex. you could start doing arithmethic with function pointers. Nov 09 18:46:41 now the question would be a ) who does that? b ) does the compiler insert code that might do that in predictable fashion? Nov 09 18:47:05 so, just trap SIGILLs :) Nov 09 18:47:12 exactly Nov 09 18:47:25 trap sigills, emulate and run Nov 09 18:47:43 IDA is one of the best static analysis tools Nov 09 18:47:51 and still fails quite often Nov 09 18:48:48 because gcc tends to mix data with code and sometimes you end up with function pointers somewhere in data section Nov 09 18:48:57 like nolo for example Nov 09 18:49:37 * javispedro ponders Nov 09 18:49:52 when IDA fails to distinguish text/data its usually trivially visible to human eye Nov 09 18:50:07 there has to be some kind of analysis that can do that too. Nov 09 18:50:19 should make for a nice paper (hint =) ) Nov 09 18:50:33 you will always have cases when that fails Nov 09 18:50:55 ofc, because I was thinking statistical Nov 09 18:51:05 with normal code ida probably cover over 90% of code correctly Nov 09 18:51:08 but, take a conservative approach Nov 09 18:51:26 but then you still have 10% that can be code or data Nov 09 18:51:36 which you then emulate. Nov 09 18:51:39 and as long as it's not 100% that's done correctly you can't do it Nov 09 18:52:18 but then you can never be sure if you don't have 1% of data that was treated as a code Nov 09 18:52:24 and will cause your program to fail Nov 09 18:52:29 * javispedro also notes that ELF may have information to help, for ex. position of pools, etc. at least with debug symbols. Nov 09 18:52:56 you have to be 100% sure that you will not have false positives Nov 09 18:53:00 anybody using pptp on N900? Nov 09 18:54:04 i want to add/delete routes on N900. I can do "/sbin/route add -net 192.58.150.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 dev ppp0" in ip-up.d, but how do delete this route in ip-down.d ? Nov 09 18:54:41 trumee: man route Nov 09 18:54:41 basically, instead of routing everthing through the tunnel, i only want to route specific ip address. Nov 09 18:57:01 mece: autobuilder doesn't set anything specific for -O2 builds. Nov 09 18:57:22 the default behaviour on N900 is to route everything through ppp0, how do i disable that first? Nov 09 18:57:40 X-Fade, I see. but howcome it builds with -O2 when scratchbox doesn't? Nov 09 18:58:06 X-Fade, I need -O0 btw. -O2 segfaults Nov 09 18:58:27 mece: Can be because we use the squeeze devkit. Nov 09 18:58:36 mece: are you using CFLAGS in your rules or Makefile but not setting them in your rules file? Nov 09 18:59:03 mece: for ex. autoconf might be reading that env var. Nov 09 18:59:09 javispedro, I don't know, I'll check. I'm in the middle of reinstalling scratchbox now though. Nov 09 18:59:31 mece: next package ensure to set the CFLAGS you want in rules file. Nov 09 18:59:32 javispedro, so what should I do to make -O0 stick? Nov 09 18:59:56 javispedro, that's what I tried but it didn't seem to work. Nov 09 19:00:06 package name? Nov 09 19:00:12 javispedro, wesnoth Nov 09 19:00:34 javispedro, I've been at this for several occasions, but haven't gotten it fixed. Nov 09 19:00:36 328MiB!! Nov 09 19:00:46 how do you get this into the autobuilder? lol :) Nov 09 19:00:51 lol, yeah a monster. Nov 09 19:00:54 it's not that big Nov 09 19:00:58 3Mb or so. Nov 09 19:01:03 Need to get 328MB of source archives. Nov 09 19:01:04 wesnoth-data Nov 09 19:01:16 is big Nov 09 19:01:36 I guess wesnoth-data's source package is wesnoth Nov 09 19:01:37 and I can't get that one into the autobuilder. I don't know how it originally got there. Nov 09 19:01:55 I wasn't the original maintainer Nov 09 19:01:58 aaa Nov 09 19:02:29 I did some workarounds to make it work with the existing data package. Nov 09 19:03:17 when did you send it to autobuilder? not in november? Nov 09 19:03:23 https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/extras-cauldron-builds/2010-November/thread.html Nov 09 19:03:33 javispedro, ages ago Nov 09 19:03:48 javispedro, I didn't want to send new ones because they all segfaulted Nov 09 19:04:13 mece: I mean, the one that failed to built or that built with -O2? Nov 09 19:04:13 javispedro, I put up a deb I built in sb on my own website so that people could play it. Nov 09 19:04:32 javispedro, it builds fine, and uses -O2, and segfaults on launch Nov 09 19:04:44 javispedro, in sb it builds without -O2 and works fine. Nov 09 19:04:45 mece: are you on diablo btw? Nov 09 19:04:52 javispedro, fremantle Nov 09 19:04:57 diablo works Nov 09 19:05:01 afaik Nov 09 19:05:18 weird, I thought the frementle toolchain had way less bugs. Nov 09 19:05:52 javispedro, not sure if it's a bug. Nov 09 19:06:00 unfortunately I can only find wesnoth packages uploaded by mikkov in logs... so can't check. Nov 09 19:06:07 ooh Nov 09 19:06:09 hi Nov 09 19:06:10 well no problems then Nov 09 19:06:11 :D Nov 09 19:06:17 MohammadAG: ping Nov 09 19:06:19 forget everything Nov 09 19:06:29 mece: wouldn't you remember approximately when you uploaded it? Nov 09 19:06:32 mece: ah well, ok. Nov 09 19:07:02 I never a mail about him getting maintainer rights, so I figured he forgot about it or didn't have time. Nov 09 19:07:16 last upload by him was in september seems Nov 09 19:07:25 s/never a/never got a/ Nov 09 19:07:25 mece meant: I never got a mail about him getting maintainer rights, so I figured he forgot about it or didn't have time. Nov 09 19:07:36 well then I guess it's fixed. Nov 09 19:07:57 javispedro, since he knows his stuff. Nov 09 19:08:02 mece: this is one such package uploaded by him https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/wesnoth_1.8.4-0maemo1/ Nov 09 19:08:31 oo nice he upgraded to 1.8.4 :) Nov 09 19:10:07 interesting. he's still not listed as a maintainer... Nov 09 19:10:48 * Noobmonk3y grumbles Nov 09 19:13:20 whassup. Nov 09 19:15:03 * crashanddie wonders if he should go get CoD or not Nov 09 19:16:01 Venemo_N900, pong, xchat isn't highlighting me Nov 09 19:16:15 MohammadAG: sry Nov 09 19:16:16 crashanddie, if you do, tell me how it compares to MW2 Nov 09 19:16:35 well Nov 09 19:16:38 MW2 was awesome Nov 09 19:16:50 it's going to be pretty hard to beat Nov 09 19:16:56 indeed, and anything by tryearch isn't Nov 09 19:17:05 My Conversations app is bugged, It's showing a weird scrollbar and touch scrolling is not working. Can someone help me about it please? Screenshot: http://i55.tinypic.com/2vw6adt.png - I know that It's somehow related to browserd (It generates those messaging UI's) but I don't know how to make it work. Nov 09 19:17:15 Venemo_N900, sorry about what? anyways, wassup :P Nov 09 19:19:15 hello, my LED in the corner doesn't light up anymore (even after removing the battery). Was setting it to 'heartbeat' as long as the n900 was on a bad idea ? Nov 09 19:20:35 did you mess with the led's config manually? Nov 09 19:20:51 yeah. But it worked after that. It stopped working without any change Nov 09 19:21:03 or after a theme change. Nov 09 19:22:27 timeless: taking pictures reminded :) Nov 09 19:24:05 oh heh 1.3 Nov 09 19:24:09 when did that come out Nov 09 19:24:20 couple of weeks ago Nov 09 19:25:29 timeless: anything interesting regarding the talk? I don't have to go overthe whole backlog from the morning, sorry was in a work event so was not online. Nov 09 19:25:49 timeless: I notedthat MSDN docs are good, even compared to Qt ones. Nov 09 19:26:09 * sivang goes back to some previous commitments. Nov 09 19:26:14 bbl Nov 09 19:27:31 sivang: btw, I just note that I missed the irc logs link in my message Nov 09 19:27:39 sivang: but I'm sure you can look it up Nov 09 19:28:32 join #linux Nov 09 19:28:33 javispedro: you sent a mesage? Nov 09 19:28:40 sorry for that xD Nov 09 19:28:42 sivang: to the ml, long ago. Nov 09 19:28:44 sorry, I was away al the day Nov 09 19:28:56 javispedro: oh, that's okay- you pasted there the transcript for the chat. Nov 09 19:29:11 javispedro: which is aready in a specia google notes for myself to be compiled into my part of the slides Nov 09 19:29:15 :) Nov 09 19:29:25 sivang: not entirely, though :) Nov 09 19:29:45 javispedro: ah, okay - so if you can get the link, that\d be grea.t Nov 09 19:30:07 * sivang notes he needs a new laptop. but not an MBP Nov 09 19:30:15 re: typing mistakes Nov 09 19:30:23 Is this the right place for help with things Maemo related or is this just a general discussion area? Nov 09 19:30:31 mr_chris: it is, just ask Nov 09 19:30:35 MohammadAG: ping Nov 09 19:31:03 pong Nov 09 19:31:07 is there anything to tell to reread configs from if-pre-up and if-post-down? Nov 09 19:31:55 chem|st: up and down the interface perhaps? Nov 09 19:32:01 ifup/ifdown Nov 09 19:32:05 sivang: well did that... Nov 09 19:32:09 Running gpxview on an n810. I'm trying to figure out how to purge its local database. Uninstalling doesn't do it. I've looked through the entire filesystem with find as root for anything gpx or gpxview related and still can't see to find it. Nov 09 19:32:36 mr_chris: sorry for being obvious, you tred sudo aptget remove --purge? Nov 09 19:32:49 mr_chris: .gpxview? Nov 09 19:33:06 mr_chris: but if it's tuf is under home/$user/. dot dir then it don't get purged through the paackage Nov 09 19:34:27 MohammadAG: may I have a working link to your KR.sh? Nov 09 19:34:37 sivang: Yes. I also tried dpkg --purge Nov 09 19:34:47 crashanddie: That's the first thing I looked for. Nov 09 19:35:00 sivang: You're right. Not there and therefore can't be purged. Nov 09 19:35:02 chem|st, http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/public/maemo/KR.sh Nov 09 19:35:08 ty Nov 09 19:35:28 sivang: from http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-27.log.html#t2010-10-27T18:12:26 onwards Nov 09 19:35:30 mr_chris: strace it, see which files it opens Nov 09 19:35:54 sivang: also http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-28.log.html#t2010-10-28T01:10:15 Nov 09 19:36:01 crashanddie: I'll give that a try. Thanks. Nov 09 19:37:08 mr_chris: not in the . dot dir of the user? Nov 09 19:37:20 sivang: It is not. Nov 09 19:37:39 does anyone else think it's a bad sign when an intro to qt on symbian "hello world" talk is scheduled to be 80min long :( Nov 09 19:37:50 mr_chris: strace it, like crashanddie said Nov 09 19:37:57 Learning how to use strace. This should come in handy later. Nov 09 19:38:02 or dtrace it for open files or something Nov 09 19:38:11 mr_chris: it is very much Nov 09 19:39:12 dtrace? Nov 09 19:39:18 there is no dtrace for linux Nov 09 19:39:31 isn't there on centos? Nov 09 19:39:33 hmm Nov 09 19:39:36 * sivang is confused Nov 09 19:39:43 that's barely working something behaving like dtrace Nov 09 19:39:45 not direct port Nov 09 19:40:04 ah okay, mascurading is the dtrace binary? Nov 09 19:40:50 Hi Nov 09 19:41:10 well, in principle it's supposed to be as compatible with true dtrace as possible Nov 09 19:41:21 that's the systap thingy? Nov 09 19:41:24 but it's not direct port Nov 09 19:41:25 no Nov 09 19:41:38 systemtap is linux dtrace like thing Nov 09 19:42:03 okey Nov 09 19:42:06 noted Nov 09 19:42:25 shall there be a new maemo device soon? Nov 09 19:42:30 maemo/meego Nov 09 19:42:37 kkal: no Nov 09 19:42:40 :( Nov 09 19:42:50 is it possible to run a .desktop file from terminal ? Nov 09 19:42:58 I shall ask again in 1 year Nov 09 19:43:01 farewell Nov 09 19:43:13 lol Nov 09 19:43:17 XD Nov 09 19:43:38 jacktheripper: why not run the command itself? Nov 09 19:44:17 jacktheripper: nope Nov 09 19:44:18 chem|st, it has this -> "StartupWMClass" in the desktop file, which makes it segfault when run from terminal. Nov 09 19:44:28 or so I understand Nov 09 19:44:36 it's HealthCheck. Nov 09 19:44:57 jacktheripper: i suppose it would be possible to use binformat misc to have a nice transparent parser for them Nov 09 19:45:30 javispedro: thanks Nov 09 19:45:43 DocScrutinizer: ping Nov 09 19:46:12 jacekowski, sorry, don't get you. Nov 09 19:47:24 jacktheripper: simple answer, no Nov 09 19:48:03 heh, thanks then. I'll find a way to imitate what that setting does. Nov 09 19:49:09 jacktheripper: complicated, yes but you would have to create parser and tell kernel to use it when required Nov 09 19:50:13 what does clicking a shortcut trigger then ? there must already be a ready parser. Nov 09 19:50:52 because your gui has a parser and understands this kind of files Nov 09 19:50:59 BluesLee: pong Nov 09 19:51:14 but that parser is a part of your GUI/DE/whatever Nov 09 19:51:36 not usable by kernel Nov 09 19:52:47 I think I figured it out. Nov 09 19:52:48 Memory. Nov 09 19:53:34 I think it temporarily stores its local settings in RAM. When I remove and readd the application it still tries to find previously imported caches. When I reset the tablet they are all cleared. Nov 09 19:54:14 jacktheripper: you tried http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/DBUS#dbus-send-launch-application ? Nov 09 19:54:22 is there any way to check if i am on gprs0 or wifi using commandline? Nov 09 19:54:36 i want to use that info in a shell script Nov 09 19:54:55 DocScrutinizer, great! thanks. Nov 09 19:55:03 mr_chris: wait, what? Nov 09 19:55:19 trumee: parse ifconfig Nov 09 19:55:33 DocScrutinizer: i don't think it's what he needs Nov 09 19:55:41 trumee: or talk to ICD2 Nov 09 19:55:44 DocScrutinizer: first of all, thank you and the others for your efforts on usb host Nov 09 19:55:46 DocScrutinizer: someone on tmo asked if the n8 nokia usb otg cable will work with the n900, i found no answer in the thread Nov 09 19:55:58 BluesLee: yes and no Nov 09 19:56:11 ip route get 4.2.2.2 Nov 09 19:56:16 BluesLee: nope it won't Nov 09 19:56:22 trumee: route -n Nov 09 19:56:31 :-) Nov 09 19:56:35 why all the obsolete cmds? Nov 09 19:56:36 DocScrutinizer: isn't that normal microusb to A female? Nov 09 19:56:51 it's micro-B Nov 09 19:56:58 becauze n900 maemo haz not installed that iproute2-utilz Nov 09 19:56:59 crashanddie: wc -l `ifconfig |grep wlan0` gives warning because of spaces Nov 09 19:57:03 OTG adapter has micro-A plug Nov 09 19:57:08 /sbin/ip route get 4.2.2.2 | perl -nle 'm/dev (\w+)/&&print $1' Nov 09 19:57:10 BugBlue: :O Nov 09 19:57:58 lcuk: read your tweets ;) Nov 09 19:58:05 BluesLee: Nokia switched N900 receptacle from micro-AB (like on N8x0) to micro-B when they decided N900 won't support OTG Nov 09 19:58:12 Noobmonk3y: you all good Qt side now? Nov 09 19:58:14 crashanddie: As weird as it sounds that seems to be the case. I'm coming up with a way to reproduce the results. Nov 09 19:58:15 luke-jr: yeah, that would work for me. thanks. Nov 09 19:58:41 luke-jr: however, if the 4.2.2.2 ip address is not reachable, will that still work? Nov 09 19:58:55 BluesLee: you *might* make it fit, if you care and dare. Just file off the surplus metal of the rim Nov 09 19:59:02 onb adapter Nov 09 19:59:11 trumee: depends on if it's locally unreachable, or if it'd be an outside routing issue Nov 09 19:59:11 DocScrutinizer, actually, it wasn't exactly what I need. I need to investigate the output of an application that can only be launched from its .desktop. The dbus message doesn't show me the output. Nov 09 19:59:23 trumee: that is, it will fail if the local kernel says "I don't have a route" Nov 09 19:59:31 but work if the local kernel would xmit it Nov 09 19:59:37 luke-jr: ah. i see. Nov 09 19:59:50 jacktheripper: there's no app that "can only be launched from its .desktop" Nov 09 20:00:20 DocScrutinizer, it has this parameter it its desktop file -> "StartupWMClass" Nov 09 20:00:37 jacktheripper: you might want to make sure you're the right user, and maybe also use run-standalone.sh Nov 09 20:01:03 hmm, no idea about that one Nov 09 20:01:10 jacktheripper: ignore it Nov 09 20:01:21 The only thing that gpxview seems to leave behind is /var/lib/gconf/apps/gpxview. I installed gpxview, ran it and imported some geocaches. I then uninstalled it and removed /var/lib/gconf/apps/gpxview. After that I reinstalled it, opened it and saw the cache list still there. Nov 09 20:01:25 I rebooted the tablet and they were gone. Nov 09 20:01:29 jacktheripper: concentrace on Exec= line Nov 09 20:01:37 oh, concentrace, nice word. Nov 09 20:01:44 :-D Nov 09 20:01:51 mr_chris: some process loked them Nov 09 20:01:58 I do what it does, but the app segfaults mid way. Nov 09 20:02:19 luke-jr: my N900 sip problem sucks very much less now. Nov 09 20:02:21 mr_chris: in some unices, a file is not deleted even after you've deleted it until all references to it are gone Nov 09 20:02:28 check user and run-standalone.sh Nov 09 20:02:30 it's HealthCheck btw Nov 09 20:02:31 trumee: cool. how? Nov 09 20:02:33 aka environment Nov 09 20:02:35 sivang: I see. Nov 09 20:02:42 Thanks everyone. Nov 09 20:02:53 jacktheripper: so ~lart Noobmonk3y Nov 09 20:02:54 luke-jr: turned out running a 32 bit OS on a 64bit cpu is not a good idea. Nov 09 20:02:55 :-D Nov 09 20:03:04 trumee: O.o? Nov 09 20:03:11 hahaha Nov 09 20:03:33 luke-jr: seems there are timing issues because of that. all sip clients can deal with it but it breaks N900 Nov 09 20:03:40 run-standalone works! no need to ~lart anyone :D Nov 09 20:03:59 jacktheripper: see javispedro ^^^ - I'm not aware of anything that makes an app "run from .desktop only" Nov 09 20:04:23 luke-jr: i now have a gentoo amd64 running and it behaves much better now. Also, Olivier Crete gave me some gstreamer binaries which have helped. Nov 09 20:04:25 DocScrutinizer: well. there are a few hidden things, but are uncommon. Nov 09 20:04:45 DocScrutinizer: for ex. you could put a fake Exec= in .desktop knowing that the launcher will use d-bus activation. Nov 09 20:04:57 yep Nov 09 20:05:10 or just check PPID in your app Nov 09 20:05:18 * sivang goes to play with nodeload Nov 09 20:05:28 javispedro: thanks again, btw there are more interesting points in the chat logs. Nov 09 20:05:29 also, d-bus puts a few extra env vars Nov 09 20:05:45 sivang: :) good luck! Nov 09 20:05:49 that's what run-standalone is for afaik Nov 09 20:06:14 create proper env Nov 09 20:06:18 DocScrutinizer: no, some more vars (for ex. the service name that caused your binary to be exec'd) Nov 09 20:07:12 hmm, yes. All this are "flags" but no prerequisites for using any special function Nov 09 20:07:15 aiui Nov 09 20:07:21 javispedro: thanks, hope it'll go well, you said you might be in the audience right? Nov 09 20:07:30 you could test for the flags in your app Nov 09 20:07:33 sivang: yep Nov 09 20:07:55 great, now really going back to finish my stress testing with nodeload commitments. Nov 09 20:07:59 cheer all, laters. Nov 09 20:08:01 sivang: don't make speak very much though, my pronunciation sucks :) Nov 09 20:08:07 *me Nov 09 20:08:07 DocScrutinizer: i will get me a female2female adapter first Nov 09 20:08:13 javispedro: me too, am not a native speaker :) Nov 09 20:08:19 BluesLee: sure bet Nov 09 20:08:29 BluesLee: females? Nov 09 20:08:40 * sivang did not just say that. Nov 09 20:08:41 sivang: yes, two of them Nov 09 20:08:46 sivang: dykes Nov 09 20:08:59 * sivang refrains from respondingdue to PG13 Nov 09 20:09:21 I should find a girl friend sometime soon, this is the sign :-) Nov 09 20:09:37 anyway, nodejs is calling Nov 09 20:09:41 cya Nov 09 20:09:58 sivang: another word for this is "gender changer" :-P Nov 09 20:10:05 LOL Nov 09 20:10:07 heh Nov 09 20:10:16 * sivang -> out Nov 09 20:10:20 MohammadAG: knows a lot about gender changers Nov 09 20:10:47 oh Nov 09 20:10:49 s/:// Nov 09 20:10:49 crashanddie meant: MohammadAG knows a lot about gender changers Nov 09 20:11:11 so the FreeRunner also had a lis302dl Nov 09 20:11:21 why didn't Nokia reuse the existing driver then? :) Nov 09 20:11:39 while we're at it: how would I teach xchat to paste last nick on pressing ""tab"" on an empty input line? Nov 09 20:12:04 s/last/least recently used Nov 09 20:12:17 crashanddie, http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2646, and fu :P Nov 09 20:12:20 least recently used? Nov 09 20:12:27 javispedro: no F'ng clue Nov 09 20:12:48 javispedro: I'm not convinced our driver was better than Nokia's Nov 09 20:12:54 ah. Nov 09 20:13:31 good question which i ask myself too, DocScrutinizer, and how to "emulate" Function keys :) Nov 09 20:13:33 crashanddie: now I typed >>cranow I...<< Nov 09 20:13:57 crashanddie: and now I typed >>and now...<< Nov 09 20:14:06 heh Nov 09 20:14:12 macIrssi does it Nov 09 20:14:14 buy a mac :P Nov 09 20:14:50 DocScrutinizer: maybe its easier with irssi than with xchat Nov 09 20:15:11 * luke-jr ordered 200 lbs of baby formula online Nov 09 20:15:21 I'm not going to switch to irssi for that feature Nov 09 20:15:38 19:57 jacktheripper: so ~lart Noobmonk3y - did i miss something? Nov 09 20:15:40 WTF is "baby formula" Nov 09 20:15:42 crashanddie: you don't need to by a mac to have irssi :P Nov 09 20:15:50 DocScrutinizer: are you serious? Nov 09 20:15:51 Noobmonk3y: not really Nov 09 20:15:57 LOL FAIR ENOUGH :p Nov 09 20:16:00 ffs caps Nov 09 20:16:40 ~lart Noobmonk3y Nov 09 20:16:40 * infobot nukes Noobmonk3y with a single large nuke Nov 09 20:16:46 Noobmonk3y: except of course some nice spanking maybe - if you like that :-D Nov 09 20:16:51 ascsiiiiiiiiifeeeeeeeeqjffffffffffgvenwf Nov 09 20:16:57 ... oops. Nov 09 20:17:03 http://gizmodo.com/5685499/were-running-out-of-chocolate Nov 09 20:17:17 javispedro: muhaha Nov 09 20:17:20 forgetoil and rare earths Nov 09 20:17:23 DocScrutinizer: http://forum.xchat.org/viewtopic.php?t=1098 Nov 09 20:17:30 lol! Nov 09 20:17:35 spanking is good Nov 09 20:17:58 crashanddie, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!! Nov 09 20:18:04 luke-jr: I'm serious like Mr. Spok Nov 09 20:18:11 * mece runs to buy chocolate Nov 09 20:18:13 dRbiG: yeah, irssi is in the maemo repos but irssi needs more getting used to, compared to xchat Nov 09 20:18:17 mece: what? Nov 09 20:18:25 oops Nov 09 20:18:29 DocScrutinizer: … is that yes or no? Nov 09 20:18:30 I meant RST38h Nov 09 20:18:44 luke-jr: obviously a "yes" Nov 09 20:18:56 andax: 'getting used to' depends very much on where you come from :) Nov 09 20:19:09 DocScrutinizer: it's what babies eat when they don't have boobs Nov 09 20:19:46 luke-jr: though I'm answering on a general basis wrt me always being serious - without any idea what's been your particular question referring to Nov 09 20:19:58 luke-jr: aaah Nov 09 20:20:36 and people say *I* grew up secluded… Nov 09 20:21:27 well, it's not a term you'd usually seen on a tech context. Nov 09 20:21:31 I grew up in a german speaking environment Nov 09 20:21:39 which means that people who learnt english in tech contexts.. Nov 09 20:21:56 exactly Nov 09 20:22:09 (or mislearnt english, as in the case of javispedro) Nov 09 20:22:30 dRbiG: i dont know what you mean, or does it relate to restricted translations of irssi manuals? :) Nov 09 20:23:19 lol Nov 09 20:23:27 so what do they call it in German? Nov 09 20:23:31 I always used the english lessons at school to read my "Byte" mag Nov 09 20:23:39 andax: i mean that i've been using text based clients for like 13 years - for me i'd need time to actually get used to xchat ;p Nov 09 20:24:01 o/ --> Dr.House Nov 09 20:24:34 DocScrutinizer: so what do they call it in German? Nov 09 20:24:40 irssi is the client to use, though i still see some memory leaks after few weeks of keeping it running Nov 09 20:24:50 dRbiG: boo irssi Nov 09 20:24:55 and anything else GTK-related Nov 09 20:25:05 irssi is not grk-related Nov 09 20:25:11 it is Nov 09 20:25:46 luke-jr: at least in spanish one would say something along the lines of "motherly" milk. Nov 09 20:25:48 just as much as bash is gtk-related Nov 09 20:26:02 dRbiG: no, BASH doesn't have GTK dependencies Nov 09 20:26:04 irssi does Nov 09 20:26:28 luke-jr: mine doesn't :) Nov 09 20:26:42 luke-jr: not really. Irssi was text-only to start with, there are gtk/gnome-enabled forks, but it really doesn't depend on GTK. Nov 09 20:26:53 exactly Nov 09 20:26:54 Depends: libc6 (>= 2.7), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0), libncurses5 (>= 5.6+20071006-3), libperl5.10 (>= 5.10.1), libssl0.9.8 (>= 0.9.8k-1), perl (>= 5.10.1-12ubuntu1), perlapi-5.10.1, perl-base (>= 5.8.1) Nov 09 20:27:12 too new stuff for fremantle. Nov 09 20:27:15 even text-only irssi depends on GTK Nov 09 20:27:24 see MohammadAG's paste ☺ Nov 09 20:27:36 on maemo, right? Nov 09 20:27:40 on all OS Nov 09 20:27:45 erhm... Nov 09 20:27:46 dRbiG: i sometimes used irssi since ~5 years, most time inside screen via ssh connection, so it did run 24/7 :) first irc app i used was mIRC on windoze Nov 09 20:27:53 what there depends on GTK? Nov 09 20:27:59 luke-jr: nothing there is GTK Nov 09 20:28:01 libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0) Nov 09 20:28:11 luke-jr, glib isn't gtk Nov 09 20:28:11 that's the glib Nov 09 20:28:13 is Nov 09 20:28:15 gettext-0.18.1.1 glib-2.24.2 libiconv-1.13.1_1 pcre-8.10 perl-5.10.1_3 pkg-config-0.25_1 python26-2.6.6 Nov 09 20:28:16 has nothing to do with gtk Nov 09 20:28:22 no gtk, sorry Nov 09 20:28:25 no libc either Nov 09 20:28:37 ok, glib does for it Nov 09 20:28:40 glib is the core of GTK Nov 09 20:28:48 no, it's just a C library Nov 09 20:29:09 MohammadAG: poooooooooooo Nov 09 20:29:09 is GTK not done with C then? Nov 09 20:29:13 it's like saying that x depends on linux because it uses the libc6 -- they're both GNU, and have a common history, but one isn't the other. Nov 09 20:29:25 while on this topic Nov 09 20:29:29 sorry Nov 09 20:29:32 libc6 isn't GNU Nov 09 20:29:34 or like saying that bash depends on x 'cause you can run it in xterm Nov 09 20:29:47 so Qt Core isn't Qt? Nov 09 20:30:08 luke-jr: glib is hardly the core of Gtk+ Nov 09 20:30:20 luke-jr: in fact, it is as much the core of Gtk+ as it is the core of Qt Core. Nov 09 20:30:28 luke-jr: as Qt Core uses glib. Nov 09 20:30:37 javispedro: not my Qt Core Nov 09 20:30:47 luke-jr: I hate you. Nov 09 20:30:50 ;) Nov 09 20:30:53 javispedro: ? Nov 09 20:30:54 luke-jr: if you said that glib is a part of gnome then yes Nov 09 20:30:55 it is Nov 09 20:31:11 GTK/GNOME Nov 09 20:31:13 same crap Nov 09 20:31:16 luke-jr: sometimes you can be really insightful, sometimes you can be a bloody stuck up troll. Nov 09 20:31:17 quite different crap Nov 09 20:31:27 gtk brought us sylpheed Nov 09 20:31:30 which is a kickass mail client Nov 09 20:31:35 gnome brought us evolution Nov 09 20:31:38 which is... yeah Nov 09 20:31:41 hehe, if you don't like it don't use it :) Nov 09 20:31:47 while pr1.3 brought us world peace Nov 09 20:31:52 * javispedro is actually starting to become a fan of glib, specially the part where it standardizes main loops Nov 09 20:31:55 dRbiG: I don't. Nov 09 20:32:07 which means that a plugin author can usually hook with the glib main loop instead of doing horrible hacks. Nov 09 20:32:07 javispedro: Qt Core already did that Nov 09 20:32:17 luke-jr: but Qt Core >= glib Nov 09 20:32:21 in fac, Nov 09 20:32:24 >>>>> Nov 09 20:32:25 exactly. Nov 09 20:32:43 pure glib is still quite small (no gobject, etc.) Nov 09 20:32:44 javispedro: snap out of it, quick Nov 09 20:32:49 virtually no startup penalty. Nov 09 20:33:17 and no dependencies on any other gnome/gtk stuff Nov 09 20:33:43 * luke-jr has glib masked Nov 09 20:34:00 luke-jr: also, libc6 is gnu. Nov 09 20:34:10 crashanddie: libc6 is part of the C standard Nov 09 20:34:13 AFAIK Nov 09 20:34:27 RST38h: makes some of my work easier if I can assume that the binary runs a glib mainloop Nov 09 20:34:29 no, libc6 is the shortname for libc.so.6.x Nov 09 20:34:43 which is provided by the GNU C Library Nov 09 20:34:52 what a pointless discussion :) Nov 09 20:34:57 or some other libc6 implementation Nov 09 20:35:12 luke-jr: s/6// Nov 09 20:35:20 my 1 year old is trying to modify my 1 month old's carseat Nov 09 20:35:27 There are poppler libs in maemo repos, so why not poppler utils? o_O Nov 09 20:35:50 I need pdftotext from poppler-utils to see oversized pdf files Nov 09 20:36:08 andax: most probably because noone didn't need them? Nov 09 20:36:20 oversized PDF files are, in my experience, bitmaps :P Nov 09 20:36:28 english fail Nov 09 20:36:59 NO U Nov 09 20:37:08 i need them badly, pdftotext is also a quasi dependency of mc which is also provided Nov 09 20:37:11 no, it's creative grammar Nov 09 20:37:39 luke-jr: yes, i failed english... "noone didn't need them" Nov 09 20:37:54 creative grammar you say! Nov 09 20:38:00 lol Nov 09 20:38:12 time for me to change diapers and take kiddos outside Nov 09 20:38:38 it is funny to see that there are so many ways to screw a language that is so simple Nov 09 20:39:17 a human-evolved language is not simple by definition. Nov 09 20:39:22 crashanddie: i cant use the preselected pdf thingie, most gui linux pdf viewers have bugs like hell, i always used plain old xpdf instead Nov 09 20:39:49 javispedro: simple as in compared to other human-evolved languages Nov 09 20:39:53 crashanddie: and pdftotext is even less ressource hungry than xpdf Nov 09 20:40:08 which means its also faster Nov 09 20:40:15 you seem to believe I would be able to help Nov 09 20:40:42 not really but its hopeless anyway :) Nov 09 20:40:44 but unless someone decides to port the apps Nov 09 20:40:49 you're SOL Nov 09 20:41:27 andax: Okular works awesome Nov 09 20:41:49 crashanddie: most of the apps are simply shell script wrappers around gs :P Nov 09 20:42:31 btw Nov 09 20:43:43 hm.. was going to ask a stupid question. Nov 09 20:43:49 go on! :) Nov 09 20:44:22 I won't tell the question, but the answer was "the C Preprocessor". Nov 09 20:45:13 if one got an answer - is the question still there? Nov 09 20:45:45 Can I have noip on my phone? Nov 09 20:45:56 let me guess... the question would be something like "who compiles that stuff?" Nov 09 20:46:14 andax: no. Nov 09 20:46:23 so many questions, so little time Nov 09 20:47:39 the question was "assume I'm a propietary software developer. I have some closed source code base here. I want to release it under the GPL, at least, the parts I am able to. I've #ifdef'd out the parts I cannot, and a partially functioning binary builds. Is there a tool that would remove the #ifdef'd out parts before publishing the code?". Nov 09 20:48:38 javispedro: only if you don't use includes Nov 09 20:48:50 ee, in such case you'd build your prop soft as a loadable libarary Nov 09 20:49:02 javispedro: if you use the preprocessor-only switch on GCC, you'll get 250k lines of code in every file Nov 09 20:49:10 javispedro: i thought software code is enough confusing as it is but there really exist obfuscator apps Nov 09 20:49:53 lolcat: if you write a client for their service, yes Nov 09 20:50:01 crashanddie: hm. good point. Nov 09 20:50:27 * MohammadAG got involved in too much stuff :/ Nov 09 20:50:28 javispedro: though, a quick perl script can take care of that Nov 09 20:51:44 Hey everyone Nov 09 20:51:48 the hardest part of it being nested ifdefs Nov 09 20:52:02 javispedro: I'm not talking about ifdefs Nov 09 20:52:04 * javispedro hoped he needn't write yet another parser Nov 09 20:52:19 javispedro: just simple ### start opensource Nov 09 20:53:00 crashanddie: nice idea, thanks Nov 09 20:54:08 javispedro: I'm using that technique for my installer script, but the other way around. I have a specific tag in my shell script in which I dump the base64 of my binaries/libraries Nov 09 20:54:40 is there much new development in the maemo kernel for N900 target, versus say meego kernel for N900? I'm thinking in terms of development for the wireless (wifi, bluetooth) stack? Nov 09 20:54:41 base64, what a waste of space-time Nov 09 20:55:05 also interested, any efforts to re-implement closed source blobs Nov 09 20:55:07 though, in the long run, you're probably better off having a specific library that you'd open source completely, and use with your proprietary app Nov 09 20:55:35 crashanddie: or other way around Nov 09 20:55:37 it would be opposite; most of it is open. Nov 09 20:55:43 exactly Nov 09 20:55:48 so I'd need to fill the executable with suspicious looking hooks. Nov 09 20:55:58 not good. Nov 09 20:56:05 oh, well, whatever :) Nov 09 20:58:19 MohammadAG: ah, the "too much work to do" syndrome. Nov 09 20:58:25 MohammadAG: try not to get burn Nov 09 20:59:05 how? I don't have any headphones to listen to shit properly while I'm doing what I'm doing :P Nov 09 20:59:29 and in a shitty country like this, you can't get a BH-505 Nov 09 20:59:47 who wants that. wired headphones ftw. Nov 09 21:00:27 MohammadAG: you want headphones for christmas? Nov 09 21:00:38 MohammadAG: We should be able to get you one if you really want it. Post packages aren't that expensive. Nov 09 21:00:50 I'd settle for a bike crashanddie :P Nov 09 21:00:54 piss off Nov 09 21:01:01 xD Nov 09 21:01:02 that's like a few thousand difference :P Nov 09 21:01:23 lol Nov 09 21:01:36 X-Fade, I can buy it off ebay I suppose, but I hate waiting for delivery Nov 09 21:01:46 ironically, I've been looking for one here in IL since june Nov 09 21:01:49 you'll wait forever if you don't :p Nov 09 21:01:50 That headset is about 50 eur here. Nov 09 21:01:57 my point exactly Nov 09 21:02:16 and 50 bucks on ebay, shipped from hong kong (why is everything from there nowadays?) Nov 09 21:02:40 funny thing is, I went to a Nokia store in JO during summer, and got a weird answer Nov 09 21:02:41 Is it genuine or a copy? :) Nov 09 21:02:44 luke-jr: can you do speed reading with okular? Nov 09 21:02:53 andax: wtf is that Nov 09 21:02:54 "people buy chinese knock offs, why do you want a BH-505" Nov 09 21:03:04 official Nokia store ^ Nov 09 21:03:14 heh. Nov 09 21:03:31 luke-jr: i mean holding down the space key and see every page for some milliseconds Nov 09 21:03:43 … Nov 09 21:03:50 so wasting CPU time for nothing? Nov 09 21:03:59 luke-jr: do you have a shortcut for the unicode ellipsis character? Nov 09 21:04:09 yes, it's called . thrice Nov 09 21:04:13 X-Fade, genuine I suppose, official price is 60 bucks I think Nov 09 21:04:30 lunch time. cya Nov 09 21:04:31 ☺ Nov 09 21:04:53 nomis, why? sometimes its nice to overfly a document without reading it completely Nov 09 21:05:06 … Nov 09 21:05:06 X-Fade, there's a US forwarding service by the post office here, that's how I got my N900 Nov 09 21:05:08 MohammadAG: Price doesn't say anything when buying in HK :) Nov 09 21:05:25 annoying thing about them would be paying for customs BEFORE it leaves the US Nov 09 21:05:44 so I had to pay 34% of the $530 when I got my N900 :( Nov 09 21:05:45 MohammadAG: They can also sell you their cheap shit for a high price :) Nov 09 21:06:09 actually, before I got it, by a week Nov 09 21:06:21 X-Fade, heh, even trusted sellers? :P Nov 09 21:06:28 … Nov 09 21:06:35 andax: xchat's autocompletion is stupid... :-) Nov 09 21:06:36 I'll see about it after the holidays though Nov 09 21:06:45   ∆ Nov 09 21:06:45 local holidays that is, not christmas Nov 09 21:06:46 ∆ ∆ Nov 09 21:06:48 * nomis relurks Nov 09 21:06:49 Yes, HK is always a gamble ;) Nov 09 21:07:37 nomi: yes, pardon, it was meant for luke-jr :) Nov 09 21:13:54 anybody has Page Up showing history in xterm. I placed a .inputrc but doesnt seem to make any difference Nov 09 21:18:26 * Noobmonk3y blames lcuk Nov 09 21:18:32 crashanddie: what Nov 09 21:18:34 nobody? Nov 09 21:18:40 that's not a triforce Nov 09 21:19:03 crashanddie: I think the way forward on N900 wireless is to make upstream work on N900 Nov 09 21:19:19 hmm. i am missing a trick here. I do have bash setup but it doesnt pick .inputrc :( Nov 09 21:19:19 What do you mean 'n900 wireless' ? Nov 09 21:19:21 then to discuss the firmware bugs, and finially, injection support Nov 09 21:19:30 SpeedEvil: specifically bluetooth and wifi Nov 09 21:19:34 oi Noobmonk3y ! Nov 09 21:19:36 kerio: actually, it is exactly just that Nov 09 21:19:41 hehehe Nov 09 21:19:46 kerio: may not display correctly depending on your font Nov 09 21:19:48 lcuk: up for an april meet? Nov 09 21:19:56 lucent: you mean for meego? Nov 09 21:20:04 crashanddie: the triforce is full, not empty Nov 09 21:20:06 that's empty Nov 09 21:20:07 Noobmonk3y, i have already booked february :P Nov 09 21:20:14 where? Nov 09 21:20:18 SpeedEvil: I haven't looked into meego, actually Nov 09 21:20:29 ▲ Nov 09 21:20:31 ▲ Nov 09 21:20:32 lucent: even if you get all the bluetooth and wifi bits to an upstream kjernel, you will not be able to do everything if you Nov 09 21:20:33 whoops Nov 09 21:20:34 is meego N900 platform support using upstream kernel wireless? Nov 09 21:20:41 well, ganon stole a piece Nov 09 21:20:47 yes Nov 09 21:20:50 lucent: have the default software stack Nov 09 21:20:54 kerio: doesn't matter :) Nov 09 21:20:56 kerio, we do not speak klingon Nov 09 21:21:14 that's not klingon Nov 09 21:21:32 SpeedEvil: I'm trying to remedy, well, to just figure out where I want to spend my time to make injection work on N900 wifi Nov 09 21:21:35 whatever it is, its wasting the ink on my irc printer Nov 09 21:21:59 you irc with a printer? that's really hard core Nov 09 21:22:06 SpeedEvil: "somebody" got it working (David/lxp) but is not interested to release the source that they improved Nov 09 21:22:29 we were doing that at the univ back in the mid 90s, a line printer was printing logs to catch attackers. Nov 09 21:22:36 chx, its not a problem normally, but its hard work carrying round enough ribbons to use with my n900 Nov 09 21:22:49 wouldn't the proper way forward be to get upstream backported to N900 and then begin discussion about N900 wifi firmware bug, to get injection support? Nov 09 21:23:28 lol Nov 09 21:23:30 i have my IRC engraved in stone Nov 09 21:23:30 ah Nov 09 21:23:31 foo Nov 09 21:23:42 btw did anyone try actually printing documents from the N900? Nov 09 21:23:46 just knowing that it is possible, I don't care to pursue that person who got it working if they are not interested. What do we do to be beneficial to the community? Nov 09 21:23:55 chx someone asked about cups yesterday actually Nov 09 21:24:02 last i saw/heard was for n8x0 though Nov 09 21:24:04 if I had a network printer I would try Nov 09 21:24:13 and possibly from the kde libs Nov 09 21:24:25 hazy, was a long time ago either way Nov 09 21:25:15 it's packaged for fremenatle http://maemo.org/packages/view/cups/ apparently.... Nov 09 21:25:32 \o/ then Nov 09 21:26:00 so someone with a printer try it :P Nov 09 21:26:03 do we know "George" as in http://marc.info/?l=linux-wireless&m=128799300117905&w=2 Nov 09 21:26:14 laRRRRdman Nov 09 21:26:15 lcuk Nov 09 21:26:18 moo,all Nov 09 21:26:29 \o lardman_ RST38h Nov 09 21:26:32 * lcuk moos gently Nov 09 21:26:52 lardman:btw mbarcode stopped saving barcode photos at some point, only stores the text data now Nov 09 21:27:03 dunno if it qualifies as a bug or a feature Nov 09 21:27:12 ▲ ▲ Nov 09 21:27:13 ▼ Nov 09 21:27:16 RST38h: interesting, I remember it stored the photos Nov 09 21:27:24 kerio: happy nao? Nov 09 21:27:31 also know that it won't work if the barcode is red on black background ;) Nov 09 21:27:32 ^v^ Nov 09 21:27:46 Noobmonk3y, yes btw Nov 09 21:27:50 movie posters have the QR-codes embedded in fancy colours where I work at a movie theater Nov 09 21:28:09 lol Nov 09 21:28:11 one day I'm saying oh sure my N900 can decode that, but no dice Nov 09 21:28:22 lucent: huh? Nov 09 21:28:23 yes to where? Nov 09 21:28:25 lcuk, unable to find package cups Nov 09 21:28:28 mbarcode Nov 09 21:28:34 or sth Nov 09 21:28:48 if it doesn't work... Nov 09 21:29:11 take a picture, then play with gimp until you have black-on-white Nov 09 21:29:11 MohammadAG, Fremantle Extras-devel free armel cups 1.3.8-maemo3 http://maemo.org/packages/view/cups/ Nov 09 21:29:14 was specified Nov 09 21:29:15 not tried Nov 09 21:29:38 kerio: it was N900 vs. iPhone something-or-other fodder at work, bragging rights who had the most amazing phone. I wanted nothing to do with it but the Apple user cornered me Nov 09 21:29:39 kerio, not quite getting the concept of mobile barcode reading Nov 09 21:29:53 lcuk: i have gimp on my phone Nov 09 21:29:56 that's mobile! Nov 09 21:30:19 fair point. Nov 09 21:30:23 * lcuk retracts statement Nov 09 21:30:32 now, if you can actually use it happily it will be better Nov 09 21:30:32 also that gimp does not work in the scenario versus iPhone user Nov 09 21:30:37 why? Nov 09 21:30:44 lcuk, saw it, but apt doesn't find it, which is weird Nov 09 21:30:47 that iPhone user has no way to edit photos on the go Nov 09 21:30:51 MohammadAG, curious Nov 09 21:30:53 lcuk: Actually, there are quite a few use scenarios Nov 09 21:30:59 i know RST38h Nov 09 21:31:14 * lcuk likes to take pictures of many things with barcodes/info on them Nov 09 21:31:14 kerio: "because there is no reason to edit photos on the go, I have my iMac to edit photos, silly" or something Nov 09 21:31:19 you know what I'm talking about Nov 09 21:31:23 all sorts of tickets and receipts and maps and things Nov 09 21:31:28 there's just no point to a conversation like that Nov 09 21:31:29 my printer is connected to my external IP Nov 09 21:31:33 i have this whole travellog :) Nov 09 21:31:41 "there is no reason to use a barcode scanner to reach a website that PRINTED RIGHT BELOW THE DAMN POSTER" Nov 09 21:31:43 i can print otg Nov 09 21:31:45 *that's Nov 09 21:31:48 Mohammad: You mean, we can print crap to it? =) Nov 09 21:31:54 the whole n900 vs iphone, and "iphone users are idiots" is getting old very quick, lucent Nov 09 21:31:54 RST38h, yes Nov 09 21:32:01 omg Nov 09 21:32:04 hmm, shit Nov 09 21:32:24 lucent: "you wouldn't need a barcode scanner if you could type the address quickly with a real keyboard" Nov 09 21:32:29 does iphone have video out capabilities yet? Nov 09 21:32:31 kerio: ha, I like that one Nov 09 21:32:36 * lcuk might get one if so Nov 09 21:32:44 lcuk: since... the first one? Nov 09 21:32:49 rly? Nov 09 21:32:51 for videos, at least Nov 09 21:33:01 when I was using my n900 to give presentations from Nov 09 21:33:11 the owners of lesser devices were glaring Nov 09 21:33:32 oh, keynote can definetely use the tv-out nowadays Nov 09 21:33:37 at least with an ipad Nov 09 21:33:40 is it possible to stop N900 offering the sdcard when connecting in mass storage mode? Nov 09 21:33:49 crashanddie: I try not to get involved, honest. The guys at work keep getting iPhones and thinking they're so new and interesting, and want to tell me about it. I'm always saying, hey, I had that hardware feature for months now but the software doesn't quite work right, good for you that you have a jailbroken iPhone or whatever Nov 09 21:33:54 kerio, ipad != mobile phone Nov 09 21:33:55 trumee: ass rage mode is quite crap Nov 09 21:34:14 kerio: ? Nov 09 21:34:23 trumee: not that I know of, but you could pop open the back cover and it will have the magnetic sensor to unmount the card Nov 09 21:34:41 trumee: should prevent it from getting exported Nov 09 21:34:43 lucent: yes, i dont want to take out the sdcard Nov 09 21:34:50 no, just pop open the back cover Nov 09 21:34:53 he didnt say take out the card Nov 09 21:34:56 even that is kind of annoying everytime Nov 09 21:34:56 just take the cover off Nov 09 21:34:57 lucent, they are interesting Nov 09 21:35:00 card = unmounted Nov 09 21:35:04 i cant wait to run meego on iphone hardware Nov 09 21:35:07 or just manually unmount the card, i guess Nov 09 21:35:21 lcuk, nevermind, broken lists Nov 09 21:35:24 i have an otterbox and it is pain even to get to the back cover Nov 09 21:35:42 lcuk: Would that ever happen? I don't know, rockbox team had such difficulty to run on new iPod / iPhone hardware Nov 09 21:35:43 otters ^_^ Nov 09 21:35:53 lucent, it will happen Nov 09 21:36:02 lcuk: the iphone hw sucks for meego Nov 09 21:36:09 easier if we can get rid of the 3d requirement for meego Nov 09 21:36:11 but meh Nov 09 21:36:29 * lcuk wonders whether iphone lcd driver supports yuv actually Nov 09 21:36:50 kerio, why do you think it sucks? Nov 09 21:37:14 no hardware keyboard, no precise touchscreen Nov 09 21:37:18 lcuk: I do not see it happening within the product lifetime of an Apple product Nov 09 21:37:46 also the multi-touch patents are encumbering to get more precise user control over the interface Nov 09 21:37:55 lucent, time/motivation/monkeys/keyboards/shakespear etc - once meego portability gets into the swing Nov 09 21:38:05 let's hope so! Nov 09 21:38:07 theres practically no hardware on the planet that wont be running it Nov 09 21:38:30 anyhow I'm hopeful for maemo to get injection support Nov 09 21:38:45 I meant for N900 to have injection support, maemo or meego, whichever Nov 09 21:39:00 lucent, is this requiring a kernel module modification? Nov 09 21:39:20 similar in principle to the other stuff like hostmode ? Nov 09 21:39:30 * lcuk is ignorant of tech details of linux network drivers Nov 09 21:40:44 lcuk, lucent injection works, the packages are under the gpl with no source Nov 09 21:41:01 ahhh yuck Nov 09 21:41:05 it's a kernel mod, yes, cracked two of my APs Nov 09 21:41:13 though they were WEPs Nov 09 21:41:22 the source is the problem for me though Nov 09 21:41:24 when the source emerges would it sit in similar manner to the hen stuff you guys are playing with? Nov 09 21:41:32 oh and a friend's AP, he knew about it of course Nov 09 21:41:38 I do my work and submit to upstream, if you don't send upstream it's like it wasn't even done at all :( Nov 09 21:41:46 my school had WEP too, so I couldn't miss out :P Nov 09 21:41:47 lucent, indeed Nov 09 21:41:54 that is the meego way also Nov 09 21:42:06 the meego way is to work with upstream, or to ignore them? Nov 09 21:42:19 work with them Nov 09 21:42:25 want to know where I should focus my efforts anyways, ah okay Nov 09 21:42:35 http://meego.com/about/contribution-guidelines Nov 09 21:42:37 upstream Nov 09 21:43:00 so, how do i set up cups again? :P Nov 09 21:43:15 lcuk: wlan source on h-e-n?? Nov 09 21:43:26 * DocScrutinizer can't see that Nov 09 21:43:59 DocScrutinizer, no i was asking if its the same principle Nov 09 21:44:17 and could be organised in similar manner / put together as a patch quilt Nov 09 21:44:45 aiui wlan driver is a module, not built to the kernel Nov 09 21:44:51 * MohammadAG51 wants to work on the VU kb lights again Nov 09 21:45:00 DocScrutinizer, indeed Nov 09 21:45:03 * lcuk gives MohammadAG51 a torch Nov 09 21:45:13 right DocScrutinizer - that was the distinction I was trying to work out Nov 09 21:45:14 so you could just create that module for whatever target kernel Nov 09 21:45:31 but if you don't have the source? :) Nov 09 21:45:56 sure MohammadAG51 Nov 09 21:48:57 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327672/Wheel-Fortune-Contestant-Caitlin-Burke-solves-puzzle-1-letter.html?ito=feeds-newsxml Nov 09 21:49:34 timeless_webchat, :D Nov 09 21:50:06 lcuk: it's really amazing Nov 09 21:50:15 although i think the audio-video sync in the flash thing is broken Nov 09 21:54:38 timeless_webchat, she did have a good feeling :) Nov 09 21:54:55 indeed! Nov 09 21:55:38 moin Nov 09 21:58:55 timeless_webchat: so ...perl: while ($x) { ...; next if (!$x); } Nov 09 21:59:36 oh wow Nov 09 21:59:41 that seems somehow nonsensical :) Nov 09 21:59:57 * timeless_webchat is watching the smallville episode where clark is given a red cape to go w/ his blue shirt Nov 09 22:00:13 sp3000: where's that from! Nov 09 22:01:06 from russia with love Nov 09 22:05:51 "Sri Lanka launches local pornstar manhunt: Sri Lankan newspapers on Tuesday published pictures of mainly women police said had acted in locally produced pornographic films, part of a court-ordered crackdown and the latest sign of growing social conservatism." Nov 09 22:05:57 Wouldn't that be a womanhunt? Nov 09 22:08:05 crashanddie: eternal debate Nov 09 22:11:02 crashanddie: and more to the point... name? Nov 09 22:18:51 IT LIVES! Nov 09 22:19:15 IT DOES! Nov 09 22:19:19 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=868463#post868463 Nov 09 22:19:21 ... what lives? Nov 09 22:19:46 DocScrutinizer: I've already seen it mentioned in some parts Nov 09 22:20:01 DocScrutinizer: a few tweets more and you will experience the pm storm Nov 09 22:45:37 hah Nov 09 22:46:00 so, Pre was similar to N900, and Pre2 is probably going to be similar to N9.. Nov 09 22:46:25 omap3630, lsm303dlh magnetomer.. Nov 09 22:47:10 303! Nov 09 22:47:15 neat Nov 09 22:47:42 I have that on a wishlist to go into the n900 Nov 09 22:49:25 The omap-aes driver has been fixed and hostmode is coming slowly but surely. What is next, hardware accelerated Pulseaudio and RE injection driver? Nov 09 22:49:54 it comes quiet depreciation and slow death as the next device sinks in. Nov 09 22:50:20 Depends on how many apps there will be for meego. Nov 09 22:50:27 pfft. Nov 09 22:50:37 and the security architecture. Nov 09 22:51:23 Pre2 would be cool if it didn't have such a terrible screen. Nov 09 22:51:47 * javispedro agrees with GAN Nov 09 22:52:01 And weren't effectively portrait-only. Nov 09 22:52:03 That sucks. Nov 09 22:52:10 Hooray, new lens is here! Nov 09 22:52:12 * GeneralAntilles runs away. Nov 09 22:53:33 * SpeedEvil congratulates GeneralAntilles on his delivery from Arissa. Nov 09 22:55:54 n900 cannot be repaired :( Nov 09 22:56:04 but i think they are going to replace it for free! Nov 09 23:01:02 anyone know of a low profile micro USB connector? Nov 09 23:01:12 hi. is it possible to use python 2.6 or later on n900? Nov 09 23:04:49 ds3: I was going to make some, never got around to it though Nov 09 23:05:19 I wish that someone will make a zsh package for Maemo :) Nov 09 23:06:18 good morning Nov 09 23:08:27 MohammadAG51: CoD BO gets a solid 90% approval rate in reviews, take away advertisement bias, and it's probably closer to 75, 80% Nov 09 23:08:30 yuck, 'good morning' at 00:00:31 Nov 09 23:08:47 indeed Nov 09 23:09:04 actually, it's only like 9AM for Termana Nov 09 23:09:32 plus, the whole "good morning when joining, good evening when leaving" IRC internationalisation thingy Nov 09 23:09:44 Heh Nov 09 23:09:47 which works Nov 09 23:09:48 yeah, 9:30 for me :p Plus I was about to type what crashanddie just said :p Nov 09 23:09:50 11pm here Nov 09 23:09:56 crashanddie, you reading my mind or something? Nov 09 23:09:59 also, depending on how broken your life is 00:00 might be "good morning" :) Nov 09 23:10:00 are you* Nov 09 23:10:01 I should probably hit the hay Nov 09 23:10:19 Termana: well, I used to live in Oz for a while, had that thing on auto-type. Nov 09 23:10:46 crashanddie, you don't have the link for that page someone showed with it on it do you? Nov 09 23:10:49 ~ugt Nov 09 23:10:50 methinks ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html Nov 09 23:10:57 nevermind Nov 09 23:11:00 was what you meant to say Nov 09 23:11:12 Mind reading. #maemo has it. Nov 09 23:12:04 I've been having a couple of weeks with 3AM-6AM nights, I'm going to hit the sack early for once Nov 09 23:12:07 later all Nov 09 23:12:17 cya crashanddie Nov 09 23:13:03 Night. Nov 09 23:15:35 Apaches Declare War On The Oracle at Delphi Over Java Nov 09 23:15:51 ah, slashdot still knows how to make me laugh. Nov 09 23:27:43 the DST switch left all of my calendar entries behind! Nov 09 23:28:58 Update automatically, is, of course, checked in the clock app... Any ideas? Nov 09 23:32:09 does anyone have any idea if it is possible to connect to 802.1x EAP w/ TTLS/PAP on an n800? I've been googling this for the last two hours to no avail... Nov 09 23:32:28 MohammadAG51: i blame you Nov 09 23:32:37 olga: not with the stock software Nov 09 23:32:40 MohammadAG51: you sent me fmtx-faker modified fmtxd Nov 09 23:33:52 javispedro: is it possible w/ 3rd party tools? Nov 09 23:34:16 olga: yes; do you know wpa_supplicant? Nov 09 23:35:08 javispedro: yep it is a conf script Nov 09 23:35:15 hardly. Nov 09 23:35:25 unfortunately, this currently requires a lot of work Nov 09 23:35:39 is there a tutorial somewhere? Nov 09 23:35:39 you need to patch a kernel module, then patch wpa_supplicant. Nov 09 23:36:14 I wrote http://libicd-wpa.garage.maemo.org/ but it assumes you know how to build Debian packages. Nov 09 23:38:30 javispedro: ok thank you for the pointers, looks like i have quite a bit of reserch to do Nov 09 23:38:45 javispedro: at least i know it can be done :) Nov 09 23:38:59 evening :) Nov 09 23:39:09 olga: yes, with the entire set (including libicd-wpa) it works very well, including autoconnecting. Nov 09 23:39:43 the Internet says the maximum micro SD size the n900 can support is 32gig - I presume this is the case? Can't see any reference to the size in the manual - I presume because 32gig was the biggest when it came out? Nov 09 23:40:20 there are no microSDHC >= 32GiB Nov 09 23:40:27 er.. Nov 09 23:40:29 s/>=/> Nov 09 23:40:34 yet Nov 09 23:40:40 how about microSD? I'm presuming it doesn't support microSDHC? Nov 09 23:40:49 jacekowski: SDXC =) Nov 09 23:40:59 without HC you can't go above 2 or 4G Nov 09 23:41:03 and yes, my knowledge of that market is a bit rubbish javispedro Nov 09 23:41:22 ok... more than a "bit rubbish" then ;) Nov 09 23:41:28 yeah just SD allows up to 4G Nov 09 23:41:44 ah, does it support sdhc? Nov 09 23:41:52 javispedro: hmm, it should be electrically compatible Nov 09 23:42:15 the simple answer is that you might cards bigger than 32GiB to work but it will not be standard so some devices may or might now be able to read/write cards touched by the Maemo device (or viceversa) Nov 09 23:42:33 hum... vive le free grammar! Nov 09 23:42:39 hmmm Nov 09 23:42:57 current SD 2.0 spec works nly up to 32G Nov 09 23:43:07 even though SDXC itself supports more Nov 09 23:43:36 but i suppose n900 could work with bigger sdxc cards Nov 09 23:43:42 assuming that there will be driver Nov 09 23:43:55 the issue here is the filesystem Nov 09 23:43:56 javispedro: using this patch i can connect to the full EAP with TTLS & PAP? Nov 09 23:43:58 as it's compatible in terms of connections and stuff Nov 09 23:44:15 javispedro: fat32 can do 128G iirc Nov 09 23:44:30 olga: no, I'm giving it to you because you will be able to watch TV with it! Nov 09 23:44:37 hmm more Nov 09 23:44:48 2T+ according to wiki Nov 09 23:44:58 jacekowski: but the SDXC standard says no FAT; exFAT. Nov 09 23:45:04 the question is. Nov 09 23:45:04 javispedro: as recommended Nov 09 23:45:13 javispedro: it's still just a block device Nov 09 23:45:20 javispedro: and you can use whatever you want Nov 09 23:45:20 jacekowski: not exactly Nov 09 23:45:36 jacekowski: yes, you can use whatever you want, but then it will be out of spec Nov 09 23:45:37 javispedro: ah sorry just confirming. not first language Nov 09 23:45:50 jacekowski: sd standard mandates specific filesystem Nov 09 23:46:03 javispedro: well, sdhc specs uses fat32 Nov 09 23:46:05 jacekowski: say goodbye to logo Nov 09 23:46:08 for example Nov 09 23:46:26 well, not really Nov 09 23:46:34 you can sell cards preformated in exfat Nov 09 23:46:47 and then user can do everything Nov 09 23:46:52 everybody is happy Nov 09 23:47:35 jacekowski: crappydevice X is perfectly to then reject the card, and in fact some chinese devices have rejected FAT32 < 2 GiB cards Nov 09 23:47:47 *perfectly in his right Nov 09 23:48:15 solution: don't buy crappydevice, I know :) Nov 09 23:48:57 i was thinking that we were talking about n900 support for cards bigger than 64G Nov 09 23:49:00 32* Nov 09 23:49:13 yes, I'm using that as an example of what will happen Nov 09 23:49:25 how often do you swap cards Nov 09 23:49:47 tbh, microSD: never. Nov 09 23:49:50 but plain SD: a lot. Nov 09 23:50:31 how do you fit plain SD in n900? Nov 09 23:50:45 cut it a bit? Nov 09 23:50:47 hammer :) Nov 09 23:51:48 jacekowski: I do not know what we're discussing here, as my initial point was, quoting the horrible grammar: Nov 09 23:51:48 the simple answer is that you might cards bigger than 32GiB to work but it will not be standard so some devices may or might now be able to read/write cards touched by the Maemo device (or viceversa) Nov 09 23:55:10 the n900 was announced only to support up to 16gb ... did that change with 1.3? Nov 09 23:55:34 because only 16g cards were avaliable at the time Nov 09 23:55:39 it's all just software thing Nov 09 23:55:41 not hardware Nov 09 23:55:52 and software can be changed Nov 10 00:05:38 SpeedEvil: hmmm don't you have a problem with the connector sticking out and just tempting someone to decapitate it off? Nov 10 00:07:17 what is the fix to change all of the calendar entress before DST back to their correct hour? Nov 10 00:10:15 internetishard: i'm not sure if that's going to work at all - but it's very likely that entries are stored in sqlite Nov 10 00:10:24 internetishard: and then simple sql query could work Nov 10 00:10:34 but i'm not sure if sqlite assumption is true Nov 10 00:10:42 what is going to work? Nov 10 00:11:00 when the time changed the other day all of my crap load of calendar entrees were set an hour back Nov 10 00:12:15 yeah it's sqlite3 Nov 10 00:13:57 so what should I do? Nov 10 00:16:27 update components set DateStart=DateStart+3600, DateEnd=DateEnd+3600; Nov 10 00:16:31 something like this Nov 10 00:17:47 i mean like sqlite3 ~/.calendar/calendardb Nov 10 00:17:50 and then type that Nov 10 00:17:57 make a backup Nov 10 00:18:00 before Nov 10 00:38:51 whos idea was it to have two people with nicks that start with ja and are the same lenght Nov 10 00:39:13 makes it look like someone is talkin to themselves Nov 10 00:58:20 If someone wanted to get a ~$500 laptop with good Linux compatability, what would be recommended these days? Nov 10 01:04:52 acer? Nov 10 01:05:31 all my acers so far had good linux compatibility :D Nov 10 01:17:20 GAN900: no brand in specific. Think in models. Nov 10 01:19:12 GAN900: especially if you do not want more than integrated graphics , every laptop has pretty good linux compatibility. They are not that different any more. They build on Intel chipsets with Intel CPUs. Almost all. Nov 10 01:19:36 if you can find a page of some geek's experiences with a concrete model, the better :) Nov 10 01:19:51 * javispedro has found those quite useful in the past and thus has written some already Nov 10 01:20:57 Powesaving can vary regrettably though Nov 10 01:21:54 on a modern laptop the rule of thumb is "half the idle battery life, about the same battery life on stress" Nov 10 01:22:39 (save for -- usually positive -- exceptions, but I find them rare) Nov 10 01:23:26 I need to do the git bisect thing to work out why my laptop is using more power. Nov 10 01:24:09 and/or powertop? Nov 10 01:24:31 not helping Nov 10 01:24:35 powertop is usually good for extreme cases Nov 10 01:24:39 not "the little things" Nov 10 01:24:49 that when talking about idle might very well be in the hours Nov 10 01:24:50 mm ok Nov 10 01:30:52 powertop also doesn't help for someone accidentally screwing up powersave. Nov 10 01:30:57 on a device Nov 10 01:34:42 leaving audio amp powered up... screwed RAM refresh... whatnot. No way to detect with powertop Nov 10 01:36:43 well.. Nov 10 01:36:44 on a contemporary laptop you probably got ~30 subsystems, each with the potential to suck battery if configured in an odd way Nov 10 01:36:57 later versions of laptop do have some kind of expert system to help with that Nov 10 01:37:26 that make random suggestions (if some USB device is keeping USB controller awake -> suggest unplugging device) Nov 10 01:37:35 s/laptop/powertop Nov 10 01:38:32 :nod: Nov 10 01:39:12 yet... nowhere near as useful when you get down to a certain number. Nov 10 01:39:41 * javispedro has an acer5820tg and the min he's reached is around 9W Nov 10 01:40:00 which is still ~7h of battery life, far from the ~10h it gets with win7... Nov 10 01:41:18 yeah. Nov 10 01:41:31 :/ Nov 10 01:41:55 I also need to do a quick audit of the schematic of my laptop, for candidates. Nov 10 01:42:12 I've not gotten down that level yet :) Nov 10 01:42:22 I am yet on the dissasembling windows drivers stage :) Nov 10 01:42:27 i found that compat-wireless helps a ton with battery life Nov 10 01:42:41 previous versions did not allow me to powersafe on the wifi Nov 10 01:42:53 for ex. this one laptop has a windows daemon that kills power to dvd unit Nov 10 01:43:12 hm, powertop helps you w that, but a daemon certainly is better Nov 10 01:43:27 I didn't found similar concept in the kernel yet so I wrote a similar userspace daemon Nov 10 01:43:28 (and i have a thinkpad and i permanently killed the power on the dvd by placing it in the cupboard) Nov 10 01:43:43 net result is -1W Nov 10 01:43:59 wow where is that available? :) Nov 10 01:44:34 chx: it is very acer timelinex specific: http://svn.javispedro.com/acer-odd/trunk/acer-odd.c Nov 10 01:45:47 missing there is the script in the gnome keybindings that maps eject button to -> echo 1 > power && eject Nov 10 01:47:33 wow Nov 10 01:50:35 of course, no warranty :) Nov 10 01:50:40 use under your own peril Nov 10 01:57:35 Hi! Is there a pdf reader for fremantle with proper portrait mode? Nov 10 01:57:52 by "proper" do you mean "reflowing"? Nov 10 01:59:56 Pardon me for the ambiguity. Proper hear would mean 1) fit to width 2) upward and downward scrolling (not sideways), and 3) automatic reorientation Nov 10 02:00:18 not sideways = reflowing? Nov 10 02:00:48 javispedro: possibly? Nov 10 02:01:03 you see, pdf is an awful format for ebook exacting because reflowing it is a hard (tm) problem Nov 10 02:01:11 s/exacting/exactly/ Nov 10 02:01:11 javispedro meant: you see, pdf is an awful format for ebook exactly because reflowing it is a hard (tm) problem Nov 10 02:01:26 javispedro: In evince, for example, when you rotate a document, to say left, scrolling happens sideways. Nov 10 02:01:50 Indeed. Nov 10 02:01:56 PDF blows. Nov 10 02:02:05 javispedro: PDF may be an awful format, but that's the file format of a lot of technical documents. Nov 10 02:03:38 your best bet is running pdf2txt on it Nov 10 02:03:46 that's what most commercial pdf reflowers do either way. Nov 10 02:04:07 (for untagged pdfs that is) Nov 10 02:04:30 Hmm. I can imagine that would be horrible for technical LaTeX manuals. Nov 10 02:05:17 if you have the source, generate html or even rtf Nov 10 02:06:14 javispedro: Hmm, RTFs. What RTF reader would you suggest to use? Nov 10 02:06:28 the free dataviz wordtogo viewer worked fine :) Nov 10 02:06:43 the paid one is actually worse on this regard, because it won't reflow rtf for some weird reason. Nov 10 02:06:56 Worse? Bad. Nov 10 02:07:07 That's bad for a premium version. Nov 10 02:07:53 well, they for some reason I'll never understand got on the Qt hype, rewrote the entire application in Qt, and of course the net result was something horrible that looks ugly, is slow, and does not integrate with the system input method Nov 10 02:08:15 but that's another story. Nov 10 02:08:45 * javispedro would KILL whoever made that decision. Nov 10 02:14:53 I would kill whoever made the decision to make / so small (or not making /usr a separate partition) Nov 10 02:16:39 bah. Nov 10 02:19:11 / is a 256M device Nov 10 02:19:20 there are no >256M devices in that form factor Nov 10 02:19:24 Or there weren't Nov 10 02:20:01 SpeedEvil: Hmm Nov 10 02:20:37 That's not the issue anyway. Nov 10 02:20:48 The issue was this ass-hatted /opt nonesense. Nov 10 02:21:08 Why? Nov 10 02:21:39 unix boxes have been mounting /usr that is on a larger filesystem since maybe the year after unix was invented. Nov 10 02:22:58 while we're at it, Nov 10 02:22:58 http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/productList.do?fmly_id=160&xFmly_id= Nov 10 02:23:18 even though I think the N9 will just ship an eMMC Nov 10 02:23:39 and a even smaller nand flash for possibly bootloader and that's about it. Nov 10 02:23:57 yeah Nov 10 02:24:33 There is little reason not to - if you can do swap to emmc - and live with the bandwidth issues - not do that. Nov 10 02:24:54 As the on-die bootloader code is 48K or so, and is plenty to boot from emmc Nov 10 02:25:09 ah Nov 10 02:25:35 that's the ROM Nov 10 02:40:51 mwahaha Nov 10 02:41:08 my evil project I probably cannot talk about is going well Nov 10 02:41:12 world domination here I come Nov 10 02:59:22 javispedro: I'm looking forward to it. Nov 10 02:59:54 well, let's engage step one. hit the sack! cya. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Nov 10 02:59:57 2010