**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 26 02:59:56 2010
Dec 26 03:01:54 <Dassu> timeless_mbp: there is no source code for flash at all...
Dec 26 03:02:03 <timeless_mbp> Dassu: um
Dec 26 03:02:13 <Dassu> it is close source
Dec 26 03:02:21 * timeless_mbp ponders
Dec 26 03:02:42 <SpeedEvil> Adobe clearly does spend time optimising it for windows though.
Dec 26 03:02:45 <timeless_mbp> Dassu: where do you think binaries come from?
Dec 26 03:02:57 <timeless_mbp> santa claus?
Dec 26 03:03:15 <Dassu> timeless_mbp: aargh, dude I meant that the source code is not publicly available
Dec 26 03:03:24 <Dassu> timeless_mbp: the binaries came from adobe
Dec 26 03:03:25 <timeless_mbp> Dassu: ok
Dec 26 03:03:27 <timeless_mbp> no
Dec 26 03:03:31 <timeless_mbp> the binaries came from nokia
Dec 26 03:03:38 <timeless_mbp> because *we* paid for source access
Dec 26 03:03:44 <timeless_mbp> so we could pay *our* team to optimize it
Dec 26 03:05:32 <Dassu> Can I have a source for that?
Dec 26 03:05:45 <timeless_mbp> if you pay us a couple of million dollars, perhaps
Dec 26 03:05:58 <timeless_mbp> but you'll probably get it cheaper if you offer those millions of dollars to adobe..
Dec 26 03:06:14 <timeless_mbp> oh, you mean "someone to confirm that i'm not lying"?
Dec 26 03:06:33 <luke-jr> Dassu: timeless_mbp is an official Nokia employee that worked on the browser
Dec 26 03:06:40 <Dassu> oh oke
Dec 26 03:06:45 <luke-jr> timeless_mbp: which I must say is actually probably one of the best parts of Maemo 5
Dec 26 03:06:51 <luke-jr> after using it more than I used to
Dec 26 03:07:14 <luke-jr> 'best' as in 'impressively stable and standards implementing"
Dec 26 03:07:26 <SpeedEvil> yup
Dec 26 03:07:29 <SpeedEvil> browser is good
Dec 26 03:07:42 <Psi> anyone know of a trick to using google maps on the nokia browser, is there anyway to scroll the map other than the little touch arrow buttons that jump half the map at a time?
Dec 26 03:08:03 <SpeedEvil> you know how to enable 'pointer mode' ?
Dec 26 03:08:20 <Psi> ive seen that pointer mode in the terminal app
Dec 26 03:08:29 <Psi> looked for it in browser but didnt find it
Dec 26 03:08:54 <Psi> but yeah, thats what i want, how do you get it in the browser?
Dec 26 03:08:58 <timeless_mbp> Psi: you haven't learned how to use the browser yet :)
Dec 26 03:09:03 <timeless_mbp> you're missing most of its power
Dec 26 03:09:26 <Psi> yeah, i figured there was a way
Dec 26 03:09:30 <SpeedEvil> slife finger into left of screen, about a quarter up
Dec 26 03:09:33 <luke-jr> better question is how to zoom Google Maps mobile
Dec 26 03:09:35 <SpeedEvil> then tap on that -> icon
Dec 26 03:09:48 <timeless_mbp> luke-jr: that's a good question
Dec 26 03:10:09 <timeless_mbp> luke-jr: from memory you can sometimes double tap to zoom
Dec 26 03:10:19 <timeless_mbp> for zooming out you can search for something on another scale
Dec 26 03:10:30 <timeless_mbp> (totally lame on both counts, better answers more than welcome)
Dec 26 03:12:00 <luke-jr> timeless_mbp: double-tap does a MicroB-zoom
Dec 26 03:12:14 <timeless_mbp> luke-jr: it shouldn't if you're in interactive mode..
Dec 26 03:12:17 <luke-jr> o
Dec 26 03:12:27 <timeless_mbp> (see lesson psi is supposed to be learning..)
Dec 26 03:12:53 <Psi> yeah, thanks
Dec 26 03:12:56 <Psi> found it
Dec 26 03:13:11 <Psi> are there any other hidden buttons?
Dec 26 03:13:29 <timeless_mbp> Psi: that's the main hidden item in the browser
Dec 26 03:13:34 <timeless_mbp> (other than about:config)
Dec 26 03:13:49 <timeless_mbp> there was actually youtube.com video lectures for the n900
Dec 26 03:13:55 <timeless_mbp> s/was/were/
Dec 26 03:13:55 <infobot> timeless_mbp meant: there were actually youtube.com video lectures for the n900
Dec 26 03:14:02 <Psi> any useful settings in about:config
Dec 26 03:14:06 <timeless_mbp> (it was designed to be a series)
Dec 26 03:14:50 <timeless_mbp> for the most part we like to think that the settings are tuned reasonably well
Dec 26 03:15:48 <Psi> excellent, the pointer mode also fixed a problem i was having on another website
Dec 26 03:15:59 <SpeedEvil> I would love to see numbers on how many people that are moving on from the n900 diddn't find the little pointer
Dec 26 03:16:11 <Psi> that was really the only thing annoying me about the browser, its awesomely done
Dec 26 03:17:27 <timeless_mbp> SpeedEvil: most of them i'd bet
Dec 26 03:17:44 <timeless_mbp> i want to strangle the UI designers and the PM
Dec 26 03:17:45 <Psi> SpeedEvil: yeah
Dec 26 03:18:06 <timeless_mbp> SpeedEvil: the modes were supposed to be introduced by the browser home page
Dec 26 03:18:15 <SpeedEvil> ah
Dec 26 03:18:19 <timeless_mbp> failing to do that more or less ensured that most people wouldn't discover it
Dec 26 03:18:25 <SpeedEvil> then someone decided to nuke the homepage?
Dec 26 03:18:36 <Psi> i find it unususal that ive never found it by accident
Dec 26 03:18:54 <timeless_mbp> SpeedEvil: i don't remember exactly what happened
Dec 26 03:19:00 <SpeedEvil> k
Dec 26 03:19:24 <timeless_mbp> but there definitely was a  plan/proposal to have it explained in the initial page
Dec 26 03:19:38 <timeless_mbp> SpeedEvil: sadly, we get no credit for thinking about it
Dec 26 03:19:44 <timeless_mbp> and along comes fennec which does it right
Dec 26 03:20:05 <timeless_mbp> (their state page for a while had drag hints to show off the two side bars)
Dec 26 03:20:32 <Psi> still not heard back from rovio about the angry birds bug i found
Dec 26 03:20:38 <Psi> guess they are pretty busy
Dec 26 03:21:17 <timeless_mbp> you broke angry birds?
Dec 26 03:22:02 <Psi> well i finished all the free levels with 3 stars and noticed i could play the locked levels even tho there was no data for them.  It loads an empty level, says youve won it 2 sec later then locks up
Dec 26 03:22:27 <Psi> then you run the game again and you can click the next level you dont have :P
Dec 26 03:22:59 <timeless_mbp> :o
Dec 26 03:23:11 <Psi> here, i took a pic  http://psi.abcom.co.nz/green_section.jpg
Dec 26 03:23:23 * lcuk thinks the next level pack will have a Psi pig in it
Dec 26 03:24:40 <Psi> here is what a level looks like when there is no data for it,  i guess the slingshot loads at point 0,0 which is inside the gound :P http://psi.abcom.co.nz/no_level_data.jpg
Dec 26 03:25:24 <SpeedEvil> I ***'d all of the paid levels, then was going for ****
Dec 26 03:25:41 <SpeedEvil> (*** it, then get a significantly better score)
Dec 26 03:25:58 <SpeedEvil> Some of them are bastards
Dec 26 03:26:12 <Psi> the last free level took me ages to get on 3 star
Dec 26 03:26:28 <Psi> im not sure what triggered the first nonfree level to unlock
Dec 26 03:35:35 <SpeedEvil> Odd.
Dec 26 03:35:50 * SpeedEvil wonders why xchat run on n900 displaying on the desktop has no input box.
Dec 26 03:38:22 <Psi> anyone know what components are inside the n900 tvout cable?
Dec 26 03:38:40 <lcuk> metal wire afaik
Dec 26 03:38:54 * nox- suspects composite
Dec 26 03:38:54 <SpeedEvil> Psi: gerbils
Dec 26 03:38:56 <nox-> haha
Dec 26 03:38:56 <lcuk> occasionally theres some electrons
Dec 26 03:39:24 <SpeedEvil> Psi: It's just a simple cable - there is a complex DAC and colour encoder in the SoC
Dec 26 03:39:36 <SpeedEvil> In principe it can do quite high-res over sync-on-green monitors
Dec 26 03:39:38 <Psi> so no little pcb in that 1-3 cable plastic lump
Dec 26 03:39:40 <SpeedEvil> no
Dec 26 03:39:50 <Psi> ok
Dec 26 03:39:53 <Psi> thanks
Dec 26 03:40:12 <luke-jr> lol
Dec 26 03:42:01 * timeless_mbp prefers lemmings over gerbils
Dec 26 03:42:28 <MohammadAG> http://i53.tinypic.com/5pq87q.jpg :D
Dec 26 03:42:37 <timeless_mbp> http://everyjoe.com/technology/gerbil-physics-like-lemmings-but-better/
Dec 26 03:43:31 <nox-> SpeedEvil, oh its somethine else than composite video?
Dec 26 03:43:53 <Psi> so it detects its a tvout cable and not headphones just from the load resistance of speakers or 
Dec 26 03:44:00 <Psi> 
Dec 26 03:44:10 <Psi> sorry
Dec 26 03:44:24 <SpeedEvil> nox-: No, it's just composite video
Dec 26 03:44:26 <Psi> .... or 75 ohm video
Dec 26 03:44:32 <nox-> ok
Dec 26 03:44:41 <SpeedEvil> Psi: it detects a 75 ohm or lower load on video out
Dec 26 03:44:52 <Psi> yeah
Dec 26 03:44:57 <Psi> makes sense
Dec 26 03:45:03 <SpeedEvil> If you want to drive a audio line-in, you can short tvout with a paperclip
Dec 26 03:45:04 <nox-> *nod*
Dec 26 03:45:24 <nox-> heh
Dec 26 03:45:32 <Psi> interesting
Dec 26 03:45:59 <nox-> http://www.bildschirmarbeiter.com/video/frau_auto_winter/
Dec 26 03:46:02 <nox-> (ot)
Dec 26 03:49:42 <SpeedEvil> oops
Dec 26 03:50:48 <timeless_mbp> nox-: *rotfl*
Dec 26 03:53:43 <nox-> :)
Dec 26 03:57:11 <timeless_mbp> anyone here use MfE?
Dec 26 03:59:37 * nox- <3 mutt
Dec 26 03:59:50 <nox-> (+ssh)
Dec 26 04:11:31 * timeless_mbp gets totally confused
Dec 26 04:15:37 <MohammadAG> night
Dec 26 04:21:31 <nox-> timeless_mbp, i dont use exchange :)
Dec 26 04:21:40 <timeless_mbp> :(
Dec 26 04:22:15 <nox-> sorry if that wasnt obvious...
Dec 26 04:37:19 <daxt> Does anybody use Recaller here ?
Dec 26 04:37:43 <Psi> i do
Dec 26 04:37:49 <daxt> great
Dec 26 04:37:59 <Psi> it seems to work fine, i have a folder of all my calls
Dec 26 04:38:02 <daxt> Psi how did u configure it to record calls ?
Dec 26 04:38:10 * Psi looks
Dec 26 04:38:18 <daxt> i notice that Recaller slows my N900 :(
Dec 26 04:38:43 <Psi> in the options i have it set to autorecord
Dec 26 04:38:56 <Psi> source=phone and format=aac
Dec 26 04:39:04 <daxt> my settings are the same
Dec 26 04:39:17 <daxt> yet Phone gets horribly slower
Dec 26 04:39:23 <Psi> once i accidently clicked record and it was running for a day or something :P
Dec 26 04:39:27 <Psi> had a 1GB file
Dec 26 04:39:45 <daxt> storage space is not an issue since we have 32 GB ;)
Dec 26 04:39:48 <Psi> daxt: how slow is slow?
Dec 26 04:40:23 <daxt> i tried to uninstall Recaller , and uninstaller in the App manager took around 5 minutes to appear
Dec 26 04:40:32 <daxt> that is way too slow
Dec 26 04:40:42 <Psi> you mean its slow to browse packages?
Dec 26 04:41:17 <Psi> i get that on all packages, the whole package app is slow
Dec 26 04:41:24 <Psi> i didnt think it was anything to do with recaller
Dec 26 04:43:45 <Psi> anyone without recaller and who's never installed it care to tell use if your package manager is really slow to download the package list and display anything
Dec 26 04:43:51 <Psi> use=us
Dec 26 04:44:40 <daxt> it was package manager slow because recaller was running
Dec 26 04:44:54 <Psi> running as in recording or just active in memory?
Dec 26 04:44:56 <daxt> and when i stopped the recaller deamon , package manager works fine
Dec 26 04:45:05 <daxt> running in recording
Dec 26 04:45:18 <daxt> probably due to AAC codec  , which eats alot of CPU ?
Dec 26 04:45:23 <Psi> why are you trying to install packages while on the phone?
Dec 26 04:45:44 <daxt> i was unable to do kill PID
Dec 26 04:46:11 <daxt> coz system was that slow
Dec 26 04:47:05 <daxt> Psi  i guess i shud change the codec  and experiment with it
Dec 26 04:47:15 <daxt> FLAC would be nice option
Dec 26 04:47:30 <Psi> it stops itself once your call ends
Dec 26 04:47:45 <Psi> i dont see how/why you are using the package manager while on a phonecall
Dec 26 04:48:21 <daxt> no no no
Dec 26 04:48:28 <daxt> not while on the phone call
Dec 26 04:48:49 <daxt> whenever i click on something recaller start to record
Dec 26 04:48:59 <daxt> that is another prob i have
Dec 26 04:49:28 <Psi> what do you mean "click on something"?
Dec 26 04:49:48 <daxt> lets say i change the profile
Dec 26 04:49:53 <daxt> to silent mode
Dec 26 04:49:58 <daxt> recaller start recording
Dec 26 04:49:59 <Psi> ya
Dec 26 04:50:09 <Psi> so the icon changes to green?
Dec 26 04:50:14 <daxt> yup
Dec 26 04:50:17 <Psi> odd
Dec 26 04:50:20 <daxt> exactly
Dec 26 04:50:26 * Psi puts his phone into silent mode
Dec 26 04:50:37 <daxt> all i want recaller is to record my calls
Dec 26 04:50:54 <Psi> just put my phone to silent and recaller did nothing, still red
Dec 26 04:51:04 <Psi> so it looks like yours is currupt or something
Dec 26 04:51:12 <daxt> ya
Dec 26 04:51:29 <daxt> what is the version u have ?
Dec 26 04:51:37 <Psi> of recaller or phone os?
Dec 26 04:51:47 <daxt> did u install it via apt-get or installer script ?
Dec 26 04:51:51 <daxt> both
Dec 26 04:51:58 <daxt> maemo v and recaller v
Dec 26 04:52:02 <Psi> recaller 2.1
Dec 26 04:52:21 <daxt> How did u install it ?
Dec 26 04:52:32 <daxt> via apt-get or installer script ?
Dec 26 04:52:37 <Psi> phone maemo 5 version 20.2010.36-2.002
Dec 26 04:54:06 <daxt> H
Dec 26 04:54:19 <daxt> Psi how did u install it ?
Dec 26 04:54:44 <Psi> im not sure
Dec 26 04:54:50 <Psi> but i think it was through the package manager
Dec 26 04:55:07 <daxt> i installed via installer script
Dec 26 04:55:13 <daxt> its where i have gone wrong i guess
Dec 26 04:55:17 <daxt> let me follow your way
Dec 26 04:55:33 <Psi> tried to kill it with a -9 ?
Dec 26 04:56:25 <Psi> but yeah, remove it and install from package manager and try that
Dec 26 04:56:47 <Psi> im pretty sure i first came across the app when browsing the apps in the package manager and installed it from there
Dec 26 04:58:23 <daxt> Psi what is the repository which Recaller is contained
Dec 26 04:58:53 <Psi> hm..
Dec 26 04:58:54 * Psi looks
Dec 26 04:59:14 * Psi waits while app manager loads the list
Dec 26 04:59:19 <Psi> this will take a minute
Dec 26 04:59:24 <Psi> or 2
Dec 26 04:59:33 <daxt> n/p
Dec 26 05:01:31 <daxt> its recaller 2.1
Dec 26 05:02:59 <Psi> hm.. i cant tell
Dec 26 05:03:06 <Psi> it doesnt show up because i have it installed already
Dec 26 05:03:35 <daxt> n/p
Dec 26 05:03:44 <Psi> i can tell you what repos i have setuo
Dec 26 05:05:27 <daxt> maemo 5 20.2010.36.2.203.1
Dec 26 05:05:32 <daxt> is this the same as yours ?
Dec 26 05:05:58 <psycho_oreos> too many dots but I would say the same except installed different locality
Dec 26 05:06:08 <Psi> nokia applications / noki asystem software update / ovi / maemo.org / mozilla multi catalog / tools / extra-devel / extra-testing /
Dec 26 05:06:47 <Psi> yeah, i dunno what the end part of the version number means
Dec 26 05:06:58 <daxt> psycho_oreos  of course i am from south asia :)
Dec 26 05:07:07 <psycho_oreos> various releases, indian release, south africa, USA, asia, etc
Dec 26 05:07:39 <psycho_oreos> its pretty well documented on the tablets-dev.nokia.com I think for firmware downloads
Dec 26 05:08:33 <psycho_oreos> otherwise both of you are running the same base version, PR1.3
Dec 26 05:09:45 <daxt> yup
Dec 26 05:09:49 <daxt> PR1.3
Dec 26 05:10:43 <daxt> i close to FLAC codec on the Recaller and now System seems to be fast but 1.01 minute file is 3.4 mb
Dec 26 05:10:47 <psycho_oreos> and you have a newer version Psi for recaller, most likely because you have enabled extras-devel/extras-testing, my recaller version states 2.0
Dec 26 05:10:48 <daxt> unusual ?
Dec 26 05:12:09 <psycho_oreos> daxt, not sure
Dec 26 05:12:16 <daxt> now the system responsiveness is much better
Dec 26 05:12:45 <psycho_oreos> I'd probably check the recording to see if it works or its corrupt
Dec 26 05:13:14 <Psi> yeah, i probably should turn off extra-devel
Dec 26 05:13:23 <Psi> never had a prob yet tho
Dec 26 05:14:04 <daxt> Psi what do u think about FLAC over AAC ?
Dec 26 05:14:15 <psycho_oreos> not an ideal thing as you are grabbing the bleeding edge stuff but if you really wanted to be on the bleeding edge or have you device deliberately set that way then you can leave it on
Dec 26 05:14:36 <Psi> daxt: never really thought about it
Dec 26 05:14:41 <Psi> AAC seems fine
Dec 26 05:14:56 <daxt> ya but it eats alot of CPU
Dec 26 05:15:05 <Psi> cant say ive noticed
Dec 26 05:15:16 <Psi> because when its recording im on a call
Dec 26 05:15:32 <psycho_oreos> FLAC is free/open, AAC remains mostly part of Apple
Dec 26 05:15:52 <daxt> try to record while your not on call by clicking on record button
Dec 26 05:16:00 <daxt> and see how the system responds
Dec 26 05:16:07 <daxt> then u shud be able to notice
Dec 26 05:16:14 <daxt> FLAC is the new mp3 :)
Dec 26 05:16:51 <psycho_oreos> not to many however who still thinks mp3 is a widely used format despite the lawsuits
Dec 26 05:17:20 <daxt> time to switch to FLAC
Dec 26 05:17:23 <Psi> seems fine
Dec 26 05:17:27 <Psi> maybe a little slower
Dec 26 05:17:32 <Psi> but not enough to really notice
Dec 26 05:17:36 <lolloo> is there battlefiled badcompany2 stats widget for N900?
Dec 26 05:18:11 <lolloo> anyone know a ventrilo client for N900?
Dec 26 05:18:36 <Psi> fine was 1MB and i had it recording for about 1min
Dec 26 05:18:47 <Psi> wasnt talking or anything tho, just background music
Dec 26 05:19:15 <Psi> the biggest aac file i have in the folder is 10MB
Dec 26 05:19:34 <Psi> deleted that 1GB one i accidently made when i left it on :P
Dec 26 05:19:56 <Psi> gunna install the overclocked kernel in a month when my warrenty expires
Dec 26 05:20:17 <Psi> that should be fun
Dec 26 05:22:02 <psycho_oreos> my biggest aac is 511MB, I've used aac recording at the time because I couldn't get media player on n900 to play flac files (little did I know I was missing ogg support at the time hence that's why its not working)
Dec 26 05:23:05 <Psi> ive still not bothered to buy a usdcard for my n900
Dec 26 05:23:17 <Psi> onboard 32gb is awesome
Dec 26 05:23:18 <psycho_oreos> neither have I
Dec 26 05:23:48 <psycho_oreos> lol I'll get another 32 or so GB class 6 or better microSD once it comes out and the prices becomes cheaper
Dec 26 05:24:39 <daxt> why do u need another sdcard when u have 32 gb ????
Dec 26 05:24:47 <psycho_oreos> the need for ext2/3 type storage is much more ideal to work with rather than meddling with fat32
Dec 26 05:25:16 <psycho_oreos> and plus it isn't true 32GB, its 29GB when its shared with /home anyway
Dec 26 05:25:26 <psycho_oreos>  /home and swap
Dec 26 05:25:57 <daxt> well even 29 GB is more than enuf
Dec 26 05:26:34 <daxt> u r not shooting porn videos , r u ?
Dec 26 05:26:37 <psycho_oreos> yeah but the fat32 doesn't really honour linux attributes well
Dec 26 05:27:53 <psycho_oreos> lol does that matter? :) in the very least when and if I get my own microSD I can then install android port, meego, etc which by then it should be all stable.. and store files in which I can meddle with the attributes in full rather than having to make do with fat32
Dec 26 05:28:52 <daxt> is there a way to make the onboard one ext3 ?
Dec 26 05:31:25 <daxt> guys i got another issue , when ever i changes the battery , N900 forgets it's current time
Dec 26 05:31:40 <daxt> is there a way to fix it ?
Dec 26 05:57:14 <lolloo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fgXaFk4qKk
Dec 26 05:57:28 <lolloo> this will fix it
Dec 26 06:36:43 <daxt_> guys time in my N900 does not get synced , what could be the issue , any console command to make it happen ?
Dec 26 06:41:20 <lcuk> install network time thingy
Dec 26 06:41:29 <lcuk> > ntpd -s
Dec 26 06:41:43 <lcuk> is what I run on my desktop to sync clock, afaik its same on n900
Dec 26 06:42:40 <daxt_> thanks lcuk
Dec 26 06:46:28 <daxt_> great , it worked !!!!
Dec 26 06:46:31 <daxt_> YAY
Dec 26 06:59:26 <Termana> good morning
Dec 26 07:02:14 <xDaReaperx> Morning
Dec 26 07:02:28 <xDaReaperx> No one responds at #nitdroid
Dec 26 07:02:30 <xDaReaperx> =/
Dec 26 07:40:47 <lolloo> its sunday!
Dec 26 07:41:02 <lolloo> what do you think?
Dec 26 07:41:41 <lolloo> ok am out! laters! awesome sunnyday today!
Dec 26 09:15:32 <bluenemo> hi guys. i was wondering how close the n900 was to the openmoko. my questions were if i could 1: remove maemo overall for debian and 2: install maemo in LVM2 with dm_crypt
Dec 26 09:17:12 <psycho_oreos> I don't have openmoko to test but I wouldn't say that it would be all that close, n900 has lots of proprietary blobs
Dec 26 09:18:05 <psycho_oreos> unless you want to start re-adopting stuff that were later ported to meego which is more open source in some retrospects to get them back onto debian.. lots of messing around imo and meego is still very much WIP
Dec 26 09:19:13 <petteri> debian on n900: https://elektranox.org/n900/
Dec 26 09:19:29 <bluenemo> i dont think i quite get it :) is meego now the choice for the n900?
Dec 26 09:21:40 <bluenemo> cool meego uses btrfs :) that rocks@!
Dec 26 09:22:55 <psycho_oreos> maemo contains proprietary components, some of which actually utilise hardware functionality of the n900. Without proprietary components n900 would not function as it is such as phone calling.. meego is where there's community devs from maemo working to make meego work on n900 by creating open codes so that there's no proprietary components and all that jazz.. however because the individual components that were made open on meego won't necessarily work for
Dec 26 09:22:55 <psycho_oreos> debian or whatever other distro you want to install so then it needs to be ported from that to make it work with the distro you choose
Dec 26 09:23:56 <bluenemo> hm ok i c
Dec 26 09:24:17 <psycho_oreos> but meego and meego porting to n900 are both works in progress, so they are not complete and expect things to crash.. even when you make debian to work with those once proprietary codes for the various built-in chips on n900
Dec 26 09:27:12 <bluenemo> hm ok.. well i'd wouldnt hurt me to have a few properitery stuff running on it.. whats improtant for me is that i can crypt it right.. how far do i have access to the internal 32gb? can i make them appear like, say /dev/sdX ?
Dec 26 09:28:16 <ShadowJK> /dev/mmcblk0p*
Dec 26 09:29:10 <bluenemo> is it shown like that on the devices cmd line or when i attach it via usb?
Dec 26 09:29:25 <psycho_oreos> the proprietary components won't work with other distribution without being ported and porting requires source code plus knowledge to be able to hack to make it work
Dec 26 09:30:11 <bluenemo> hm yes i know. i thought about just using both, debian and maemo, booting whatever whenever i need it
Dec 26 09:30:31 <bluenemo> but most importantly, both needs to be in LVM2 and dm_crypt
Dec 26 09:30:54 <psycho_oreos> bluenemo, the link petteri mentioned on the front page pretty much describes what happens when you try installing debian on n900, no phone calling capability because the driver is proprietary
Dec 26 09:31:53 <ShadowJK> MeeGo is using oFono for calls, and I think that's open. Atleast jebba made phonecalls in, I think, Fedora on N900 using it..
Dec 26 09:32:03 <ShadowJK> probably no UI exists though :)
Dec 26 09:33:09 <bluenemo> the debian wouldnt need to support phone calling for me, i'd need umts and wlan basicly..
Dec 26 09:43:22 <psycho_oreos> no idea on umts but I suspect it may be closely related to the phone functionality
Dec 26 09:46:40 <bluenemo> can i access the NAND only via this flasher tool?
Dec 26 09:49:19 <ShadowJK> I wouldn't write to it manually from N900, if that's what you're asking.
Dec 26 09:50:57 <ShadowJK> It's not a block device and shouldn't be treated as such
Dec 26 10:00:35 <bluenemo> ShadowJK and others, thank you a lot for your help. i'm not quite shure if i should buy it..
Dec 26 10:01:22 <bluenemo> it seems fun so far if your not a total linux freak.. i think using it and staying normal user with maemo is fun, but developing for it i'm not shure..
Dec 26 10:03:45 * trumee thinks his headache might be due to squinting at the small N900 screen
Dec 26 10:04:32 <bluenemo> lol :) trumee i thought there were some x11vnc capabilitys and stuff?
Dec 26 10:05:27 <trumee> Easier to use N900 in bed than a laptop :)
Dec 26 10:05:34 <ShadowJK> :)
Dec 26 10:05:44 <bluenemo> has nobody ever tried LVM and dm_crypt? basicly thats the most important thing for me..
Dec 26 10:05:48 <trumee> But increasing the xchat font has helped a bit.
Dec 26 10:05:55 <bluenemo> trumee, lol :)
Dec 26 10:06:04 <bluenemo> i like using my t60p in bed :)
Dec 26 10:06:15 <bluenemo> xD
Dec 26 10:07:04 <ShadowJK> N810 was better for that, bigger screen :)
Dec 26 10:07:38 <bluenemo> i mean the NAND wouldnt be crypted of course... kernel and grub is not crypted normaly as well (as you couldnt decrypt it then ;) but the rest has to be..
Dec 26 10:08:38 <ShadowJK> the nand isn't a normal block device, and ubifs doesn't work on block devices
Dec 26 10:08:52 <ShadowJK> lvm deals with block devices
Dec 26 10:09:30 <bluenemo> i know, i wont want to crypt the nand, only everything else
Dec 26 10:09:42 <ShadowJK> I'd just run stuff from a microsd card and keep the nand mostly untouched with a "backup" os dulboot style
Dec 26 10:10:04 <bluenemo> but i cant crypt maemo, can I ?
Dec 26 10:10:34 <ShadowJK> Well, /home is ext3 so it would be possible
Dec 26 10:11:00 <ShadowJK> however, fitting it into the init scripts would be "interesting" :)
Dec 26 10:11:19 <bluenemo> lol :)
Dec 26 10:11:43 <bluenemo> how many partitions are there normally?
Dec 26 10:11:57 <ShadowJK> 3 on the emmc
Dec 26 10:12:05 <bluenemo> emmc?
Dec 26 10:12:21 <ShadowJK> 768M swap, 2gig /home and /opt, fat32 for the rest of the 32g
Dec 26 10:12:40 <ShadowJK> emmc = integrated 32gigabyte (marketing bytes) mmc
Dec 26 10:13:52 <bluenemo> marketing bytes :D
Dec 26 10:14:25 <ShadowJK> 32 * 1000 * 1000 * 1000 bytes :)
Dec 26 10:14:31 <kerio> they call it SI
Dec 26 10:15:15 <bluenemo> :)
Dec 26 10:16:06 <bluenemo> and maemo is installed by say dd an image to the device? or is it like installing a 'normal' linux (from a cd ur usb boot stick or sth)?
Dec 26 10:16:25 <bluenemo> ur = or
Dec 26 10:16:29 <ShadowJK> kinda like dd
Dec 26 10:17:13 <kerio> never dd a NAND
Dec 26 10:17:24 <ShadowJK> actual real dd is a bad idea to use on nand, it might accidentally work on some devices but will fuck up on others
Dec 26 10:17:25 <Venemo> it's a bit more than dd afaik. eg. the flasher tool can account for errornous sectors and such.
Dec 26 10:17:37 <Venemo> you'd need to ask DocScrutinizer, he knows more about this
Dec 26 10:18:01 <bluenemo> ok thank you guys
Dec 26 10:18:48 <bluenemo> i saw this youtube vid where a guy told about maemo running debian in a vm.. can maemo run vm's?
Dec 26 10:19:17 <ShadowJK> he meant chroot
Dec 26 10:19:25 <bluenemo> ok thought so
Dec 26 10:19:33 <bluenemo> would be fun with 600mhz arm xD
Dec 26 10:20:31 <bluenemo> hm well well. i think if i dont want to only develop i'd have to use maemo.. but as I have customer information i cant afford not to run around with it crypted..
Dec 26 10:21:27 <bluenemo> i'd be interested in developing as well, also i dont very much appreciate properitary 'traps'..
Dec 26 10:22:24 <ShadowJK> Well you probably need quite some devloper skills to get encryption setup anyway
Dec 26 10:22:52 <bluenemo> on maemo yes, shure
Dec 26 10:24:21 <bluenemo> i read meego uses btrfs.. that supports encryption as well. do you know anything about meego and crypt?
Dec 26 10:24:33 <Venemo> bluenemo: ask that on #meego
Dec 26 10:24:37 <bluenemo> btrfs is sooo cool btw :)
Dec 26 10:24:46 <bluenemo> ok i'll do that yes
Dec 26 10:28:38 <bluenemo> ShadowJK, about the partitions: you said /home is ext3, what about /opt (and what is /opt for overall?)? where is the rest of the 32gb mounted? does it have to be fat32?
Dec 26 10:33:48 <bluenemo> googeled for /opt, seems obsolete.. you propably didnt meant that /opt has a own partition, did you?
Dec 26 10:35:34 <bluenemo> is that info correct? /home (2G)   and   /home/user/MyDocs (27G)
Dec 26 10:49:19 <Jaffa> GeneralAntilles: thinking of putting a message up saying "no MWKN cos of Xmas holidays"
Dec 26 10:49:28 <Jaffa> GeneralAntilles: i.e. no issue today
Dec 26 10:58:00 <RobbieThe1st> bluenemo: /opt is essentially symlinked to /home/opt, on the /home partition
Dec 26 10:58:15 <bluenemo> ok thx
Dec 26 10:58:35 <RobbieThe1st> bluenemo: And most 3rd-party apps should be stuck in there, because Nokia didn't just symlink /usr/share etc...
Dec 26 11:01:01 <alterego> A qml text rpg game ..
Dec 26 11:01:15 <alterego> Seems ironic somehow.
Dec 26 11:07:25 <ShadowJK> bluenemo, maemo doesn't like it if MyDocs isn't vfat/fat32
Dec 26 11:09:55 <kerio> that's why you make it a 200mb partition
Dec 26 11:11:05 <bluenemo> ok thanks for the advice guys. the meego guys send me a link where ppl crypted /home and the /home/foo (28gb)
Dec 26 11:11:09 <trumee> anything interesting out there in Boxing day sale?
Dec 26 11:11:10 <bluenemo> http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?t=66997
Dec 26 11:12:21 * trumee would like to buy a dockstar or another joggler if on sale
Dec 26 11:13:14 <timeless_mbp> bluenemo: fwiw vmware demo'd using an n800 for virtualization
Dec 26 11:13:18 <timeless_mbp> so it's technically possib
Dec 26 11:13:20 <timeless_mbp> le
Dec 26 11:13:21 <kerio> dockstars are like 25$
Dec 26 11:13:27 <kerio> you cheapskate
Dec 26 11:13:50 <trumee> kerio, not in UK, go for about £40
Dec 26 11:13:53 <kerio> (they also suck, buy a sheevaplug)
Dec 26 11:14:15 <trumee> kerio, i thought they were based on sheevaplug
Dec 26 11:14:34 <trumee> they have more usb ports than sheevaplug
Dec 26 11:14:39 <kerio> and less ram
Dec 26 11:14:42 <kerio> and no jtag/serial
Dec 26 11:14:57 <kerio> and you know how sheevaplugs always have troubles booting from usb? that's still there
Dec 26 11:15:04 <kerio> except that booting from usb is pretty much your only option
Dec 26 11:15:53 <kerio> because there's no jtag/serial so if you fuck up the flashing you bricked it
Dec 26 11:16:16 <kerio> (that can be solved if you build a serial port though, the pins are still there)
Dec 26 11:20:14 <bluenemo> goodbye guys, thanks a lot for your help and merry xmas
Dec 26 11:27:10 * timeless_mbp tries to pull a Mer out of a hat
Dec 26 11:28:15 <alterego> Is that a Christmas joke? :P
Dec 26 11:31:33 <xDaReaperx> laugh ppl
Dec 26 11:48:04 <alterego> Note to self, "Stop reading stupid tmo threads about MeeGo and Nokia Dali device"
Dec 26 11:48:55 <RobbieThe1st> Dali device?
Dec 26 11:49:51 <alterego> Don't ask.
Dec 26 11:50:04 <alterego> It's supposed to be the codename of the N900 successor.
Dec 26 11:50:28 <alterego> We _know_ as much about it as we knew about the N900 when it was called "Rover".
Dec 26 11:51:15 <alterego> People should stop guessing and making stupid assumptions. It spreads FUD and tends to make everyone look like idiots.
Dec 26 11:51:22 <RobbieThe1st> Yea
Dec 26 12:05:23 <saLOUt> does the n900 support turn-by-turn navigation with ovi maps?
Dec 26 12:08:34 <alterego> Cool, my app can be promoted to extras now :D
Dec 26 12:08:41 <RST38h> Soooooooo
Dec 26 12:08:57 <RST38h> No customizable desktop and no Flash in N9? =)
Dec 26 12:09:09 <alterego> RST38h: bullcrap :P
Dec 26 12:09:19 <RST38h> ORLY?
Dec 26 12:09:48 <RST38h> Here: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-December/002993.html
Dec 26 12:10:21 * RST38h especially liked "And as long as our development environment is impossible
Dec 26 12:10:21 <RST38h> to use (the new security framework can hopefully be disabled) we won't
Dec 26 12:10:24 <RST38h> get apps eithere."
Dec 26 12:10:50 <alterego> m'hmm
Dec 26 12:11:03 <alterego> wait-and-see
Dec 26 12:13:52 <alterego> I just think it's pointless guessing all the time.
Dec 26 12:14:19 <alterego> And it just makes otherwise seemingly reasonible and intelligent people come across as just as idiotic as the kiddiots that talk there :/
Dec 26 12:15:03 <RST38h> alterego: I think you are missing the point. Look at guy's email address.
Dec 26 12:15:36 <alterego> You mean the meego list ?
Dec 26 12:15:45 <Termana> Who cares what Nokia does aren't we all going iPhone and Android anyway?
Dec 26 12:15:46 <Termana> .... Anyone?
Dec 26 12:15:48 <Termana> :p
Dec 26 12:16:03 <RST38h> yes
Dec 26 12:16:41 <saLOUt> alterego: does the n900 support turn-by-turn navigation with ovi maps?
Dec 26 12:17:20 <alterego> Yes
Dec 26 12:17:31 <alterego> But not voice guidance
Dec 26 12:17:47 <saLOUt> alterego: thx
Dec 26 13:07:02 <ilius> i'm looking for a good music player that could play FOLDERS as playlist (musics without tags and ID3)
Dec 26 13:07:39 <ilius> MadiaBox was good before the recent new version!
Dec 26 13:08:32 <ilius> and Canola seems to run only in full screen mode
Dec 26 13:18:55 <RST38h> Umgh
Dec 26 13:19:15 <RST38h> Fixed MSlugX at the cost of hacking it.
Dec 26 13:24:24 <lingling> hi all. have a small problem with installing new nitdroid:when mount /dev/mmcblk1p2 /and it says: "mounting.... failed: no such file or directory"  any solution?
Dec 26 13:39:23 <ilius> any suggestion for a good music player?
Dec 26 13:56:54 <Loom> hi
Dec 26 13:57:53 <Loom> any1 knows in which folder the shortcuts for the deskop are ?
Dec 26 13:58:56 <Loom> i had made a shortcut and the icon disapeared when i rebooted
Dec 26 13:59:21 <Loom> and now it doesn't let me make it again
Dec 26 13:59:36 <trumee> ilius, mplayer?
Dec 26 14:00:41 <Loom> for the transmission it was
Dec 26 14:02:48 <ilius> trumee: command line?
Dec 26 14:03:07 <ilius> trumee: and where is the package?
Dec 26 14:03:23 <trumee> ilius, apt-get install mplayer
Dec 26 14:14:17 <timeless_mbp> trumee: did i ever get you to test my packages?
Dec 26 14:14:42 * timeless_mbp finally got around to making an update
Dec 26 14:15:33 <trumee> timeless_mbp, what packages?
Dec 26 14:15:33 <anthonie> Hello all, anyone here tried Kubuntu Maverick? Looking for some pointers to boot it from SD
Dec 26 14:15:46 <timeless_mbp> trumee: alternate en-* locales
Dec 26 14:16:01 <trumee> timeless_mbp, do i need them?
Dec 26 14:16:19 <timeless_mbp> trumee: if you aren't using en-US/en-GB as a UI language then they won't do much
Dec 26 14:16:33 <timeless_mbp> but otherwise, you're welcome to try them
Dec 26 14:16:54 * Trizt likes timeless_mbp GB localisation
Dec 26 14:17:12 <timeless_mbp> Trizt: wanna try an update?
Dec 26 14:17:17 <Trizt> sure
Dec 26 14:18:00 <trumee> timeless_mbp, i am using en-GB. But what is the advantage of using your packages?
Dec 26 14:18:15 <timeless_mbp> trumee: non crappy English
Dec 26 14:18:28 <trumee> ah!
Dec 26 14:18:59 <trumee> does it fix dictionary or something. or changes the UI?
Dec 26 14:19:23 <timeless_mbp> UI
Dec 26 14:21:09 * timeless_mbp sighs
Dec 26 14:21:20 * timeless_mbp finally finds the widget to silence this new n900
Dec 26 14:21:40 <xDaReaperx> Hymn Awash
Dec 26 14:21:42 <xDaReaperx> ?
Dec 26 14:22:03 * timeless_mbp has a set of n900s for testing :)
Dec 26 14:22:16 <timeless_mbp> :(, what's my wifi password? :)
Dec 26 14:22:19 <xDaReaperx> how many ?
Dec 26 14:23:28 <timeless_mbp> hrm, two on my chest, one on the table
Dec 26 14:23:57 * timeless_mbp will probably return one tomorrow
Dec 26 14:24:21 <xDaReaperx> you have nitdroid installed ?
Dec 26 14:24:42 <timeless_mbp> not yet, but i have a brand new 8gb uSD card sent to me from ca.us
Dec 26 14:24:47 <timeless_mbp> so i could install it there :)
Dec 26 14:25:55 <trumee> timeless_mbp, do i need a restart?
Dec 26 14:26:07 <timeless_mbp> trumee: not really
Dec 26 14:26:17 <timeless_mbp> if the screen sorta collapsed, then it did most of the changes already
Dec 26 14:26:18 <xDaReaperx> i think it's better to install it on eMMC
Dec 26 14:26:26 <xDaReaperx> its faster on eMMC , after all you can also OC it
Dec 26 14:26:28 <timeless_mbp> there are a couple of stragglers (browser) which you'd have to kill
Dec 26 14:26:40 <timeless_mbp> xDaReaperx: i'm not really worried about perf
Dec 26 14:26:47 <xDaReaperx> okay
Dec 26 14:26:53 <trumee> timeless_mbp, any place obvious where i should see the UI change?
Dec 26 14:27:01 <timeless_mbp> trumee: did the ui collapse?
Dec 26 14:27:11 <timeless_mbp> if not, you probably are using the other english and didn't realize it :)
Dec 26 14:27:19 <timeless_mbp> but the launcher is the obvious place
Dec 26 14:27:24 <trumee> timeless_mbp, didn't notice it
Dec 26 14:27:39 <timeless_mbp> check control panel and verify which locale you're using
Dec 26 14:29:39 <trumee> timeless_mbp, ok i see an extra British English icon in the control panel.
Dec 26 14:29:51 <timeless_mbp> trumee: right, but open the normal language thing
Dec 26 14:29:57 <timeless_mbp> does it say you're using british or american?
Dec 26 14:30:14 <timeless_mbp> if you're using american, then you'd need to install american (or switch to british using the normal picker)
Dec 26 14:30:19 <trumee> says English(UK)
Dec 26 14:30:24 <timeless_mbp> ok
Dec 26 14:30:31 <timeless_mbp> well, go to the launcher
Dec 26 14:30:42 <timeless_mbp> what do you see as the label for the globe?
Dec 26 14:31:05 <trumee> Browser
Dec 26 14:31:16 <timeless_mbp> do you remember what it used to say?
Dec 26 14:31:22 <trumee> no :(
Dec 26 14:31:35 <timeless_mbp> (you can switch back to nokia strings using the 'british english' control panel item)
Dec 26 14:33:52 <trumee> ah. Ok it changed from Web to Browser. ok got ya!
Dec 26 14:34:16 <timeless_mbp> trumee: yep
Dec 26 14:34:18 <alterego> Do you need bug tracking fields in library packages?
Dec 26 14:34:30 <timeless_mbp> alterego: it'd be nice to have them
Dec 26 14:34:32 <timeless_mbp> Qt is buggy
Dec 26 14:34:37 <alterego> Heh
Dec 26 14:34:42 <timeless_mbp> GStreamer and gstreamer components are buggy
Dec 26 14:34:51 <MohammadAG> lol
Dec 26 14:34:58 <alterego> Just wondering if it's a packaging requirement for promotion of libs along with my package.
Dec 26 14:34:59 <MohammadAG> users are buggy
Dec 26 14:35:07 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: those too, yes
Dec 26 14:36:10 <alterego> Each user should come with a bug tracking field? :D
Dec 26 14:36:46 <MohammadAG> alterego, they're probably be WONTFIX'd :P
Dec 26 14:36:59 * RST38h moos evilly
Dec 26 14:39:51 <RST38h> alterego: Just have a click-through licensing agreement where user promises to shut up and not complain about any "issues" he finds with your app.
Dec 26 14:40:02 <alterego> Heh
Dec 26 14:40:09 <alterego> I like that
Dec 26 14:40:30 <RST38h> Don't forget to include "accidental loss of family members" and "dementia" on the list of issues covered
Dec 26 14:41:53 <luke-jr> so he can complain about intentional loss of family members?
Dec 26 14:42:11 <luke-jr> or that click-through licensing agreements are invalid?
Dec 26 14:43:19 <RST38h> so he CANNOT
Dec 26 14:45:50 * timeless_mbp *hates* packaging
Dec 26 14:46:03 <timeless_mbp> if a ui package foo 0.1-9 depends on bar and baz
Dec 26 14:46:09 <timeless_mbp> and the user has foo 0.1-8
Dec 26 14:46:19 <timeless_mbp> updating foo doesn't pull in newer versions of bar/baz :(
Dec 26 14:47:17 <luke-jr> why would it?
Dec 26 14:48:18 <MohammadAG> unless you depend on the new version of bar and baz
Dec 26 14:48:28 <MohammadAG> which seems quite umm, reasonable
Dec 26 14:48:29 <Trizt> don't >= work?
Dec 26 14:48:40 <alterego> Yeah
Dec 26 14:48:42 <MohammadAG> exactly
Dec 26 14:48:42 <timeless_mbp> luke-jr: convenience to lazy packagers
Dec 26 14:48:58 <MohammadAG> well, lazy packagers are buggy :P
Dec 26 14:49:08 <timeless_mbp> why should i have to constantly update my meta package controls each time i update the transcluded packages
Dec 26 14:49:21 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: that's part of the definition of lazy, yes :)
Dec 26 14:49:34 <timeless_mbp> so, if i have:
Dec 26 14:49:34 <timeless_mbp> ]
Dec 26 14:49:40 <timeless_mbp> Depends: x (>= 1),
Dec 26 14:49:45 <timeless_mbp>  y (>= 1),
Dec 26 14:49:51 <timeless_mbp> X-Foo: hgi
Dec 26 14:50:03 <timeless_mbp> it's ok for me to have a trailing comma? dpkg doesn't care?
Dec 26 14:50:05 <MohammadAG> weren't you depending on bar and baz, not x and y?
Dec 26 14:50:12 <MohammadAG> use consistent examples :P
Dec 26 14:50:17 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: different problem :)
Dec 26 14:50:19 <Trizt> :D
Dec 26 14:50:50 <MohammadAG> timeless_mbp, hmm, never tried it
Dec 26 14:51:01 <MohammadAG> dpkg-buildpackage is a perl script I think
Dec 26 14:51:46 <MohammadAG> sigh
Dec 26 14:53:49 <luke-jr> timeless_mbp: because you want your meta package to depend on newer versions?
Dec 26 14:54:00 <timeless_mbp> luke-jr: ?
Dec 26 14:54:06 <luke-jr> [09:46:45] <timeless_mbp> why should i have to constantly update my meta package controls each time i update the transcluded packages
Dec 26 14:54:16 <timeless_mbp> luke-jr: but that's busy work
Dec 26 14:54:28 <alterego> I should really create a local mirror of the maemo repositories so I can work on my own autobuilder stuff without caining my bandwidth
Dec 26 14:54:32 <timeless_mbp> it's also the reason that Maemo5 updates suck
Dec 26 14:54:35 <luke-jr> make them all the same version and use variables
Dec 26 14:54:55 <timeless_mbp> if there was a way for Maemo5 to mean "show this item if any of its dependencies have newer versions available"
Dec 26 14:55:00 <MohammadAG> timeless_mbp, hah, HAM :P
Dec 26 14:55:05 <timeless_mbp> then we'd have been able to do easier updates
Dec 26 14:55:07 <MohammadAG> timeless_mbp, users should be using apt-get
Dec 26 14:55:46 * timeless_mbp reminds MohammadAG that a user by definition doesn't use apt-get
Dec 26 14:56:03 <timeless_mbp> hey, does zenity have a curses mode?
Dec 26 14:56:22 * timeless_mbp doesn't seem to have x11
Dec 26 14:57:53 <MohammadAG> Segmentation fault ha
Dec 26 15:14:11 <alterego> You've been getting a lot of those recently :P
Dec 26 15:14:25 <alterego> I'm about to head home now.
Dec 26 15:14:59 * Trizt waves to alterego 
Dec 26 15:15:18 * alterego is feeling way too fat again ..
Dec 26 15:15:26 <alterego> Think I might have eaten a bit tooo much
Dec 26 15:15:36 <Dassu> hmm :(
Dec 26 15:15:40 <Trizt> nah, that's impossible, take some more
Dec 26 15:15:52 <Dassu> I have a problem of not gaining any weight
Dec 26 15:15:54 <nox-> thats the problem with holiday seasons...
Dec 26 15:16:16 <alterego> Heh
Dec 26 15:16:26 <alterego> Yeah, my mom made me a goody bag :D
Dec 26 15:16:31 <Dassu> alterego: it is important for my body to receive enough energy fo muscle growth. Any tips for that?
Dec 26 15:16:50 <alterego> Protein :)
Dec 26 15:17:09 <alterego> You need to excercise though.
Dec 26 15:17:24 <Dassu> :o I do excercise once a week
Dec 26 15:17:59 <timeless_mbp> alterego: so...
Dec 26 15:18:08 <timeless_mbp> you have the ability to control how messages download
Dec 26 15:18:25 <timeless_mbp> options are "Headers only", "Preview", "Full message"
Dec 26 15:18:32 <timeless_mbp> there needs to be a label
Dec 26 15:18:37 <timeless_mbp> "Download" doesn't work
Dec 26 15:18:50 <timeless_mbp> I could use "Message headers only", "Message preview" and "Full message"
Dec 26 15:18:54 <timeless_mbp> sound ok?
Dec 26 15:19:09 <alterego> Yeah, sounds good :)
Dec 26 15:19:18 <timeless_mbp> hrm, "Message previews" and "Full messages" ?
Dec 26 15:19:36 <alterego> I don't think that matters.
Dec 26 15:19:41 <alterego> It's implied ..
Dec 26 15:19:53 <alterego> I prefer the singular form anyway, don't know why :)
Dec 26 15:19:59 <timeless_mbp> yeah, i do too
Dec 26 15:20:06 <timeless_mbp> the problem i had was 'headers' threw me
Dec 26 15:20:18 <timeless_mbp> but thinking about it, it means headers for *one* message
Dec 26 15:20:30 <alterego> Yes, exactly.
Dec 26 15:21:06 <timeless_mbp> oh brother
Dec 26 15:21:13 <timeless_mbp> so, there's a checkbox "Sync sent items"
Dec 26 15:21:19 <timeless_mbp> an account has "Sent" and "Sent items"
Dec 26 15:21:24 <timeless_mbp> i don't know what "sent items" is
Dec 26 15:21:26 <timeless_mbp> ...
Dec 26 15:21:57 <timeless_mbp> oh, and for kicks...
Dec 26 15:22:06 <timeless_mbp> the accounts i'm using are configured to "Sync sent items"
Dec 26 15:22:53 <timeless_mbp> the Sent folder has 2 items, and Sent items has 1 item (not the same as either of the two in Sent)
Dec 26 15:23:12 <timeless_mbp> Dear lazy maemo nokia messaging web, "WTF does this widget do?"
Dec 26 15:23:41 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: you claimed you use Nokia Messaging?
Dec 26 15:24:04 <MohammadAG> yeah
Dec 26 15:24:25 <timeless_mbp> can you open account settings for nm, in synchronization, is "Sync sent items" checked?
Dec 26 15:24:30 <timeless_mbp> if so, can you tell me what it does?
Dec 26 15:24:44 <timeless_mbp> if not, would you be willing to risk trying it and then telling me what it does? :)
Dec 26 15:24:44 <timeless_mbp> thanks
Dec 26 15:25:57 <MohammadAG> It syncs your sent folder with the one on the web afaik
Dec 26 15:26:09 <MohammadAG> so you can see sent items from gmail.com (for example) on the N900
Dec 26 15:26:22 <MohammadAG> and vice versa, emails sent from the N900 show on gmail.com
Dec 26 15:26:51 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: right
Dec 26 15:26:57 <timeless_mbp> is that "Sent" or "Sent items" ?
Dec 26 15:27:16 <timeless_mbp> or does it effectively sync "Sent" with "Sent items"?
Dec 26 15:27:33 <MohammadAG> yeah
Dec 26 15:28:12 <timeless_mbp> so the fact that it's out of sync here is an anomaly? oh good
Dec 26 15:28:38 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: and if you send a message using gmail.com it'll appear in "Sent" via nokia messaging? (eventually)
Dec 26 15:28:50 <MohammadAG> it should
Dec 26 15:28:51 * MohammadAG checks
Dec 26 15:28:58 <timeless_mbp> thanks
Dec 26 15:29:27 <MohammadAG> yep
Dec 26 15:29:35 <MohammadAG> sent items from gmail.com are on my device
Dec 26 15:29:35 <alterego> Anyhow, bbiab
Dec 26 15:29:44 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: in 'Sent'
Dec 26 15:29:50 <timeless_mbp> (as opposed to 'Sent items')
Dec 26 15:30:18 * MohammadAG checks the string he hes
Dec 26 15:30:22 <MohammadAG> has*
Dec 26 15:30:38 <timeless_mbp> not yet localized by me, coming up in about an hour
Dec 26 15:30:48 <timeless_mbp> once i get these silly corners understood
Dec 26 15:30:54 <MohammadAG> heh, it decided to get stuck
Dec 26 15:31:02 <timeless_mbp> ah! that's more like it! :)
Dec 26 15:31:04 <MohammadAG> yes, in "Sent"
Dec 26 15:31:28 <timeless_mbp> i presume 'Sent items' also has the same content? :)
Dec 26 15:31:30 * MohammadAG wonders why they use a GtkButton for New message
Dec 26 15:31:42 <MohammadAG> but only in the Nokia Messaging window
Dec 26 15:31:50 <MohammadAG> the rest of modest uses a HildonButton
Dec 26 15:31:58 <timeless_mbp> hrm
Dec 26 15:32:03 <timeless_mbp> how are you determining this?
Dec 26 15:32:08 * timeless_mbp is too lazy to pull up the source
Dec 26 15:32:13 <nidO> the difference between "sent" and "sent items" is purely poor coding and laziness
Dec 26 15:32:18 <MohammadAG> it's still loading lol
Dec 26 15:32:29 <timeless_mbp> nidO: not true
Dec 26 15:32:39 <timeless_mbp> w/o checking this check box, 'Sent' and 'Sent items' are divorced
Dec 26 15:32:41 <MohammadAG> for the Gtk vs hildon thing, you can clearly see it from the styling
Dec 26 15:32:50 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: what theme?
Dec 26 15:32:56 <timeless_mbp> one is a local folder and the other is a remote folder
Dec 26 15:32:57 <MohammadAG> default one
Dec 26 15:33:00 <timeless_mbp> hrm
Dec 26 15:33:05 <MohammadAG> hildon buttons have a gradient
Dec 26 15:33:07 <nidO> yes true, "sent" is the folder name that's been used by mailservers for the best part of 2 decades for sent mail
Dec 26 15:33:11 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: :o
Dec 26 15:33:13 <MohammadAG> Gtk buttons are gray with no gradient
Dec 26 15:33:20 <timeless_mbp> yeah, i misunderstood how many levels of nm there were
Dec 26 15:33:28 <timeless_mbp> nidO: not true
Dec 26 15:33:31 <nidO> then client devs (mainly stemming from outlook express) started defaulting to calling a sent items folder as "sent items"
Dec 26 15:33:37 <MohammadAG> 2 I think
Dec 26 15:33:40 <nidO> which then gets created by the client
Dec 26 15:33:53 <MohammadAG> the mainwindow, which feeds folders to modest
Dec 26 15:33:58 <MohammadAG> or that's how I think it does it
Dec 26 15:34:11 <MohammadAG> that main window (for nm) uses a GtkButton
Dec 26 15:34:18 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: accounts list, folder list, folder
Dec 26 15:34:32 <timeless_mbp> i was looking at folder list and went into folder and saw no difference
Dec 26 15:34:35 <MohammadAG> yeah
Dec 26 15:34:39 <timeless_mbp> i needed to exit accounts list to get to modest
Dec 26 15:34:41 <MohammadAG> timeless_mbp,
Dec 26 15:34:41 <timeless_mbp> and then i saw
Dec 26 15:34:46 <MohammadAG> the Sent items isn't bad coding
Dec 26 15:34:55 <MohammadAG> it's bad user understanding :P
Dec 26 15:34:59 <timeless_mbp> ...
Dec 26 15:35:05 <MohammadAG> that's you subscribed to your folder on Nokia Messaging's settings site
Dec 26 15:35:16 <MohammadAG> the folder on gmail.com is called Sent items
Dec 26 15:35:23 <MohammadAG> rename it to something else, and it'll be changed in modest
Dec 26 15:35:41 <MohammadAG> so it's not a string from modest, it's sent from the server
Dec 26 15:35:42 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: if you sync, will a new folder be created for Sent items that are synceD?
Dec 26 15:36:23 <MohammadAG> If you unsubscribe from the folder, and have the option ticked, your sent items will appear in sent
Dec 26 15:36:43 <timeless_mbp> i can't subscribe to folders w. nokia messaging, right?
Dec 26 15:36:45 <MohammadAG> "Sent items" is the folder you're subscribed to here http://email.nokia.com/account/home.action
Dec 26 15:36:49 <MohammadAG> you can
Dec 26 15:37:00 <MohammadAG> and there's a bug which no one checked/fixed
Dec 26 15:37:16 <MohammadAG> bug 8089, I think I reported it a year ago
Dec 26 15:37:18 <povbot`> Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/8089 Clicking notifications for e-mails in folders displays an error
Dec 26 15:37:59 <timeless_mbp> eh? we support /<bug#> ?
Dec 26 15:38:17 <MohammadAG> huh?
Dec 26 15:39:00 <timeless_mbp> oh interesting
Dec 26 15:39:05 <timeless_mbp> maybe bugzilla does support that notation
Dec 26 15:39:08 * timeless_mbp has never used it
Dec 26 15:39:20 <timeless_mbp> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/100000 does a redirect to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=100000
Dec 26 15:39:21 <povbot`> Bug 100000: was not found.
Dec 26 15:39:29 <timeless_mbp> https://bugs.maemo.org/8089 doesn't actually redirect
Dec 26 15:39:31 <povbot`> Bug 8089: Clicking notifications for e-mails in folders displays an error
Dec 26 15:39:44 <MohammadAG> it does afaik
Dec 26 15:39:53 <MohammadAG> yep, it does
Dec 26 15:39:56 <timeless_mbp> not a redirect
Dec 26 15:39:58 <MohammadAG> it was added recently
Dec 26 15:40:00 <timeless_mbp> the urlbar here doesn't change
Dec 26 15:40:10 <MohammadAG> true
Dec 26 15:40:16 <timeless_mbp> oh joy
Dec 26 15:40:19 <timeless_mbp> new folder gives me:
Dec 26 15:40:23 <timeless_mbp> [v] Inbox
Dec 26 15:40:25 <timeless_mbp> [v] Inbox
Dec 26 15:40:28 <timeless_mbp> [v] Inbox
Dec 26 15:40:37 <Trizt> you have a lot of inboxes
Dec 26 15:40:40 <timeless_mbp> [H] Drafts (1)
Dec 26 15:40:47 <timeless_mbp> [^] Outbox
Dec 26 15:40:55 <timeless_mbp>  ^ Sent
Dec 26 15:41:09 <timeless_mbp> [=) Nokia Messaging
Dec 26 15:41:20 <timeless_mbp> [=) account1@whatever
Dec 26 15:41:29 <timeless_mbp> [=) account1@whatever / Drafts
Dec 26 15:41:45 <timeless_mbp> [=) account2@somewhere
Dec 26 15:41:48 <timeless_mbp> [=) account2@somewhere / Drafts
Dec 26 15:41:49 <timeless_mbp> ...
Dec 26 15:42:12 <timeless_mbp> i guess one of the inboxes is for whatever, one is for somewhere, and the other is a generic one?
Dec 26 15:42:24 <timeless_mbp> heaven help me if i want to know which is which!
Dec 26 15:42:53 <timeless_mbp> Trizt: and, i don't, i think MohammadAG would have 5, i only have 3 ! :)
Dec 26 15:43:02 <MohammadAG> yeah, they aren't merged
Dec 26 15:43:14 <timeless_mbp> but how do you know which is which? :)
Dec 26 15:44:31 <timeless_mbp> oops
Dec 26 15:44:34 <timeless_mbp> i did something bad
Dec 26 15:44:38 <timeless_mbp> i tried to create a folder
Dec 26 15:44:44 <timeless_mbp> and i don't have the keys for the account
Dec 26 15:45:11 <timeless_mbp> hrm, actually, it worked eventually
Dec 26 15:46:55 * MohammadAG has 3 emails accounts
Dec 26 15:47:00 <MohammadAG> and 10 folders in one
Dec 26 15:47:20 <timeless_mbp> you had gmail, hotmail, live and ovi mail
Dec 26 15:47:23 <timeless_mbp> which did you lose?
Dec 26 15:47:48 * MohammadAG wonders how you remember that
Dec 26 15:47:57 <MohammadAG> I gave my ovi account to a friend
Dec 26 15:47:58 <timeless_mbp> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8089#c2
Dec 26 15:47:59 <povbot`> Bug 8089: Clicking notifications for e-mails in folders displays an error
Dec 26 15:48:10 <timeless_mbp> bugzilla never forgets :)
Dec 26 15:48:25 <MohammadAG> ha
Dec 26 15:49:11 * timeless_mbp is still amused by "Sent from my Nokia N900 using Nokia Mess..."
Dec 26 15:50:00 <MohammadAG> it wasn't like that pre-1.2 I think :P
Dec 26 15:50:02 <timeless_mbp> it could say "Sent using Nokia Messaging from my Nokia..."
Dec 26 15:50:10 <MohammadAG> It was Sent from my mobile computer using Nokia Messaging
Dec 26 15:50:22 <timeless_mbp> yeah they made it shorter
Dec 26 15:50:28 <MohammadAG> no
Dec 26 15:50:32 <timeless_mbp> too bad they didn't make the preview button less stupid
Dec 26 15:50:36 <MohammadAG> they sorta confirmed that the N900 was the only M5 device
Dec 26 15:50:57 <RST38h> "Somehow sent by N900 in spite of all the bugs"
Dec 26 15:50:58 <timeless_mbp> did you see the button?
Dec 26 15:51:17 <MohammadAG> which one?
Dec 26 15:51:52 * timeless_mbp looks for the pictures
Dec 26 15:53:09 <timeless_mbp> http://timeless.justdave.net/maemo/nokmess/Screenshot-20090101-083158.png
Dec 26 15:53:51 <MohammadAG> lol!
Dec 26 15:54:08 * timeless_mbp thought that was quite special
Dec 26 15:55:00 <MohammadAG> hmm
Dec 26 15:55:02 <MohammadAG> timeless_mbp,
Dec 26 15:55:12 <MohammadAG> they connected the pressed() (or whatever it is in GTK) the function
Dec 26 15:55:24 <MohammadAG> try to scroll from the button
Dec 26 15:55:52 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: which button?
Dec 26 15:55:56 <timeless_mbp> the signature one?
Dec 26 15:56:03 <MohammadAG> the signature one
Dec 26 15:56:14 <timeless_mbp> oh right
Dec 26 15:56:19 * timeless_mbp had trouble doing that
Dec 26 15:56:31 <timeless_mbp> i didn't really think about what it meant
Dec 26 15:56:38 <timeless_mbp> i thought they were trying to be "helpful"
Dec 26 15:57:00 <MohammadAG> nope, wrong signal
Dec 26 15:58:58 * MohammadAG is sometimes amazed at how bad some stuff is coded on maemo
Dec 26 15:59:20 <MohammadAG> couldn't they have used HildonPannableArea in the mediaplayer?
Dec 26 15:59:47 * timeless_mbp is amazed that MohammadAG is only *sometimes* amazed by this :)
Dec 26 15:59:53 <MohammadAG> it took me 6 hours to understand and experiment with delegates properly, but surely someone at Nokia would know that
Dec 26 15:59:58 <Trizt> I'm trying to use qt-desginer to make a UI, but I don't really manage to get things to look the same on the N900 as it did on the computer, what is the geometry I should use for the window when using menu?
Dec 26 16:00:28 <MohammadAG> 800x450, use layouts and set the layout for MainWindow
Dec 26 16:00:50 <MohammadAG> basically, you can have a layout of 1x1 pixels, and it's stretched when the layout is set
Dec 26 16:01:16 <MohammadAG> have a look at http://gitorious.org/n900-hostmode/hostmode-gui
Dec 26 16:01:30 <MohammadAG> damn that's old
Dec 26 16:01:35 <Trizt> one of the vertical/horizontal/grid/form I guess you mean?
Dec 26 16:03:54 <MohammadAG> yeah
Dec 26 16:04:00 * timeless_mbp cries
Dec 26 16:04:03 <timeless_mbp> merging failed
Dec 26 16:04:06 <MohammadAG> use a combination of both, you can never get it right with one ;)
Dec 26 16:05:07 <Trizt> I used the qtabwidget, and I been down on 800x400, but still part of it gets outside the screen
Dec 26 16:06:05 <Trizt> and buttons usually I have to make huge or else they will be too small on n900
Dec 26 16:06:22 <MohammadAG> umm
Dec 26 16:06:44 <MohammadAG> QMainWindow::setCentralWidget(ui->objectNameOfQTabWidget);
Dec 26 16:10:04 <RST38h> Fitting.
Dec 26 16:25:57 * timeless_mbp sighs
Dec 26 16:26:00 * timeless_mbp hates merging
Dec 26 16:26:07 * timeless_mbp is terribly confused
Dec 26 16:27:44 <timeless_mbp> oh great
Dec 26 16:27:46 <timeless_mbp> my merge failed
Dec 26 16:32:08 * Trizt is away for a while or some days
Dec 26 16:36:17 <timeless_mbp>  "%s\n"
Dec 26 16:36:17 <timeless_mbp> -"Deleting a contact will also remove it from the server."
Dec 26 16:36:18 <timeless_mbp> +" Deleting this contact will also remove it from %s."
Dec 26 16:36:27 * timeless_mbp wonders where that came from
Dec 26 16:37:04 <timeless_mbp> joy, abi break
Dec 26 16:37:06 * timeless_mbp loves those
Dec 26 16:37:48 <timeless_mbp> hey, does anyone have a tool to detect abi breaks?
Dec 26 16:40:09 <alterego> timeless_mbp: ldd ?
Dec 26 16:40:18 <timeless_mbp> alterego: for .mo files
Dec 26 16:40:28 <timeless_mbp> alterego: .mo files are generally sent to printf()
Dec 26 16:40:28 <alterego> .mo?
Dec 26 16:40:36 <timeless_mbp> passing garbage values to printf() is a *BAD* idea
Dec 26 16:40:48 <timeless_mbp> e.g. printf("%s %s %s %s");
Dec 26 16:40:51 <alterego> dunno what .mo is :)
Dec 26 16:41:03 <timeless_mbp> .mo is a compiled string table used by gettext
Dec 26 16:41:11 <timeless_mbp> roughly "it's a walking disaster"
Dec 26 16:41:21 <alterego> Heh
Dec 26 16:41:44 <alterego> Unfortunately not, but I'm sure it wouldn't be to hard to knock something up.
Dec 26 16:41:48 <timeless_mbp> especially if it's used by idiots
Dec 26 16:42:17 <timeless_mbp> the general rule in C for an exported function is: once it's exported, you can't change its arguments, return value, or behavior
Dec 26 16:42:30 <timeless_mbp> the same rule needs to apply to po/mo strings
Dec 26 16:42:32 <lcuk> timeless_mbp, at what point in a project would you say is the right one to consider translations and internationalisation? :)
Dec 26 16:42:34 <MohammadAG> what's abi?
Dec 26 16:42:42 <MohammadAG> new fancy word for api?
Dec 26 16:42:45 <lcuk> application binary interface
Dec 26 16:42:46 <timeless_mbp> MohammadAG: application binary interface
Dec 26 16:42:50 <alterego> application binary iface
Dec 26 16:42:56 <lcuk> you can have same API but compiled for different cpus
Dec 26 16:43:08 <lcuk> or settings of same cpu
Dec 26 16:43:15 <lcuk> which effect the ABI :P
Dec 26 16:43:17 <alterego> Basically it's the linking api between shared libraries and executables.
Dec 26 16:43:22 <timeless_mbp> people tend to think of APIs in terms of source level compatibility
Dec 26 16:43:31 <timeless_mbp> ABI is binary compatibility
Dec 26 16:43:45 <timeless_mbp> you can say "this source file compiles with that source file"
Dec 26 16:44:08 <timeless_mbp> but if the binary you generated from <this source file> doesn't work with the binary generated from <that source file>
Dec 26 16:44:17 <timeless_mbp> and both binaries are in the wild, then you've made a mess
Dec 26 16:44:41 <timeless_mbp> people tend to try to work around getting this right by doing "packaging"
Dec 26 16:45:04 <timeless_mbp> which is basically like trying to string duct tape between exposed wires and volatile explosives
Dec 26 16:45:10 <timeless_mbp> it might work.. for a little while
Dec 26 16:45:10 <alterego> A classic example is how in meego we're moving to  hardfp, which means you can't run chroots for armv7l debian anymore.
Dec 26 16:45:18 <alterego> Or maemo bins, or palm pre
Dec 26 16:45:47 * timeless_mbp notes that in theory one could create stubs to deal w/ that
Dec 26 16:46:02 <timeless_mbp> if this was being done by ms or apple, they'd have been created too
Dec 26 16:46:15 <timeless_mbp> but no, we're linux, getting things right isn't a requirement :)
Dec 26 16:46:20 <timeless_mbp> nor is offering a migration path
Dec 26 16:46:37 <timeless_mbp> (no, i'm not bitter)
Dec 26 16:46:46 <timeless_mbp> (but i am hungry)
Dec 26 16:46:47 <alterego> But we have a good speed boost, so it's a worthwhile trade off, and hopefully ubuntu and emdebian will catch up with the hard float stuff.
Dec 26 16:47:04 <lcuk> timeless_mbp, indeed, and shown elegantly in windows land by being able to run VisiCalc binary
Dec 26 16:47:21 <lcuk> built in 1981
Dec 26 16:49:07 <lcuk> http://www.danbricklin.com/visicalc.htm for curious folks, download link is on that page
Dec 26 16:57:07 <DocScrutinizer> wasn't there a tool called Qt-Linguist, which deals with that kinda stuff?
Dec 26 16:58:46 <timeless_mbp> > He asked back: "Why didn't you just use a ratio?" I replied: "That wouldn't have been as exact." What I didn't tell him was that the program code to do division wasn't working yet...
Dec 26 16:59:02 <timeless_mbp> DocScrutinizer: i don't think it deals w/ telling you when you're being stupid
Dec 26 16:59:05 <DocScrutinizer> (the printf("%s") issue that is)
Dec 26 17:05:27 <timeless_mbp> yeah, i don't think i've seen anything in Qt Linguist to handle that
Dec 26 17:05:33 <timeless_mbp> i could be wrong, i only used it for a bit
Dec 26 17:16:40 <sivang> alterego: are their images already with hardfp meego for N900?
Dec 26 17:16:52 <sivang> hey timeless_mbp
Dec 26 17:16:58 <timeless_mbp> hi
Dec 26 17:17:07 * timeless_mbp is busy cursing some idiots
Dec 26 17:17:17 <sivang> timeless_mbp: heh, cable company?
Dec 26 17:17:35 <timeless_mbp> nah, people who think it's ok to change a string's contents
Dec 26 17:17:45 <sivang> timeless_mbp: translators?
Dec 26 17:19:53 <timeless_mbp> well, technically ui designers doing stupid things to fixed strings which breaks existing translations (me)
Dec 26 17:20:14 <timeless_mbp> the coders should of course refuse to allow such crap, but they follow orders like good little robots
Dec 26 17:20:47 <Venemo> hey guys
Dec 26 17:24:57 <juk> what is bridging in android channel topic? ...no bridging Android apps to this channel, ...
Dec 26 17:27:05 <alterego> What?
Dec 26 17:27:31 <juk> sorry i said bye there and saw it after part
Dec 26 17:28:12 <juk> and called n900 next step :P
Dec 26 17:30:47 <juk> wheres official chrome can downloaded? or firefox is better
Dec 26 17:31:00 <jave> I'm trying to compile an app using libvorbis for ogg support, but there doesnt seem to be libvorbis in scratchbox?
Dec 26 17:32:35 <luke-jr> juk: MicroB is better
Dec 26 17:32:36 <juk> jave i think gstreamer pack should have it
Dec 26 17:33:03 <jave> I think my apt-get skillz sucks
Dec 26 17:33:30 <juk> luke, i see
Dec 26 17:37:30 <ShadowJK> jave: probably in extras-*?
Dec 26 17:39:55 <juk> jave: Filename: pool/fremantle/free/libv/libvorbis/libvorbis0a_1.2.0.dfsg-3.1maemo0_armel.deb
Dec 26 17:40:28 <jave> thats the dev deb?
Dec 26 17:43:16 <juk> jave: i can paste my sources.list
Dec 26 17:43:30 <juk> jave: if u care ofcouse
Dec 26 17:44:24 <timeless_mbp> juk: x86 or arm scratchbox?
Dec 26 17:45:22 <timeless_mbp> hrm, not that it matters we have both
Dec 26 17:45:40 <juk> timeless_mbp: juk stands for my initial chars in my name
Dec 26 17:46:09 <timeless_mbp> ...
Dec 26 17:46:43 <jave> juk: that would be apreciated
Dec 26 17:47:16 <timeless_mbp> ~pastebin
Dec 26 17:47:16 <infobot> [~pastebin] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you should paste anything over 3 lines so you don't flood the channel. Here are links to a few : http://www.pastebin.com , http://pastebin.ca , http://channels.debian.net/paste , http://paste.lisp.org , http://bin.cakephp.org/ , http://asterisk.pastey.net/ , or install pastebinit with yum or aptitude.
Dec 26 17:47:16 <timeless_mbp> => juk
Dec 26 17:48:07 <timeless_mbp> trumee: *sigh*
Dec 26 17:48:23 <timeless_mbp> anyone here remember how to detect pr1.3 in terms of packages?
Dec 26 17:49:05 <juk> timeless_mbp: thanks, choosing...
Dec 26 17:49:26 <lcuk> timeless_mbp, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=51029
Dec 26 17:49:45 <timeless_mbp> lcuk: grr
Dec 26 17:49:52 * timeless_mbp goes to see how this code does it today
Dec 26 17:50:15 <lcuk> timeless_mbp, ?
Dec 26 17:51:23 <timeless_mbp>   $islibhildon11 = `/usr/bin/dpkg --compare-versions $libhildon12 gt $libhildon1version && echo 1` =~ /^1/;
Dec 26 17:51:27 <timeless_mbp> is what i'm doing right now
Dec 26 17:51:54 * timeless_mbp should probably continue along that path
Dec 26 17:52:03 * timeless_mbp ponders
Dec 26 17:52:10 <juk> timeless_mbp: sorry im using ubuntu's pastbin it fastest
Dec 26 17:52:23 <timeless_mbp> juk: doesn't matter to me
Dec 26 17:52:32 <timeless_mbp> just so long as you don't spam the channel :)
Dec 26 17:54:24 <juk> timeless_mbp: ah
Dec 26 17:54:42 <timeless_mbp> a sources.list can easily be >3 lines
Dec 26 17:56:51 <juk> jave?
Dec 26 17:56:55 <jave> yep
Dec 26 17:57:20 <juk> get it while hot: http://paste.ubuntu.com/547757/
Dec 26 17:57:37 <jave> Thanks
Dec 26 17:58:28 <timeless_mbp> juk: and you did apt-get update at some point?
Dec 26 18:00:39 <jave> "apt-get update" seems to hang for me in scratchbox
Dec 26 18:03:30 <timeless_mbp> lcuk: more or less that link sucks
Dec 26 18:03:31 <juk> jave are welcome as long as you work for better of n900 and all us
Dec 26 18:03:31 <timeless_mbp> almost all of the suggestions there are likely to fail for real users :)
Dec 26 18:03:31 <juk> timeless no i did not
Dec 26 18:03:31 <timeless_mbp> you should :)
Dec 26 18:03:31 <juk> why would i?
Dec 26 18:03:31 <sivang> timeless_mbp: in the sysinfo page?
Dec 26 18:03:31 <timeless_mbp> ?
Dec 26 18:03:31 <timeless_mbp> sivang: i'm a program
Dec 26 18:03:31 <sivang> timeless_mbp: osso- stuff does give the version info
Dec 26 18:03:31 <timeless_mbp> sivang: osso- stuff fails when people brick their system, no?
Dec 26 18:03:31 <timeless_mbp> e.g. remove the metapackage
Dec 26 18:03:31 <timeless_mbp> use a non standard kernel
Dec 26 18:03:31 <timeless_mbp> ...
Dec 26 18:03:31 * timeless_mbp gets terribly confused by a maze of twisty versions all dissimilar
Dec 26 18:04:14 <sivang> timeless_mbp: true
Dec 26 18:04:19 <sivang> timeless_mbp: what are you trying to achieve?
Dec 26 18:04:27 <timeless_mbp> something that actually works =b
Dec 26 18:04:43 <sivang> timeless_mbp: well, if the system is bricked, there's not much you can ask for
Dec 26 18:05:03 <timeless_mbp> sivang: removing the meta package or changing the kernel doesn't actually brick it
Dec 26 18:05:11 <timeless_mbp> but it more or less breaks all of the assumptions on that page
Dec 26 18:05:20 <sivang> timeless_mbp: do we expect normal users to do that?
Dec 26 18:05:26 <timeless_mbp> yes.
Dec 26 18:05:36 <sivang> timeless_mbp: normal users fire the terminal and try that? :)
Dec 26 18:05:53 <sivang> timeless_mbp: or is it possile from HAM?
Dec 26 18:05:55 <timeless_mbp> sivang: my target audience is anyone who could wander into this channel
Dec 26 18:06:06 <timeless_mbp> well, you can replace your kernel w/ ham :)
Dec 26 18:06:07 <timeless_mbp> so yeah
Dec 26 18:06:22 <sivang> you mean in an upgrade process?
Dec 26 18:06:29 <SpeedEvil> Mmmm. Honey roast ham.
Dec 26 18:06:31 <timeless_mbp> no, i mean as a package
Dec 26 18:06:44 <timeless_mbp> there are packages to replace your kernel
Dec 26 18:07:05 <sivang> timeless_mbp: well, how do we put something on it that will always work?
Dec 26 18:07:16 <timeless_mbp> sivang: ?
Dec 26 18:07:18 <sivang> timeless_mbp: exclue it from pkg mgmt? make it readonly?
Dec 26 18:07:27 <sivang> timeless_mbp: Sorry, I'm not following I guess
Dec 26 18:07:28 <timeless_mbp> sivang: you're addressing the wrong problem
Dec 26 18:07:31 <timeless_mbp> indeed
Dec 26 18:07:39 <timeless_mbp> there's nothing wrong w/ people changing components of the system
Dec 26 18:07:41 <sivang> timeless_mbp: I'm interested about the problem
Dec 26 18:07:47 <sivang> *ion
Dec 26 18:07:49 <sivang> *in
Dec 26 18:07:50 <timeless_mbp> but anything else that wants to deal w/ components of the system needs to be careful
Dec 26 18:07:59 <sivang> timeless_mbp: what is it?
Dec 26 18:08:17 <timeless_mbp> localization replacement which should work in 1.1, 1.2 or eventually 1.3
Dec 26 18:08:32 <timeless_mbp> there were breaks between 1.2 and 1.3 in addition to the breaks from 1.1 to 1.2
Dec 26 18:08:54 <sivang> I see
Dec 26 18:08:56 <timeless_mbp> note that it's perfectly legal for someone to upgrade from 1.0 to 1.1 to 1.2. to 1.3
Dec 26 18:09:02 <sivang> right
Dec 26 18:09:09 <timeless_mbp> and my package should survive being installed between any of those upgrades
Dec 26 18:09:12 <sivang> I wonder what happens if you start from 1.0 now
Dec 26 18:09:24 <timeless_mbp> iirc it'll do incremental upgrades
Dec 26 18:09:30 <sivang> so you want to be ablet o use different translation infra between versions?
Dec 26 18:09:32 <juk> so hows meego? sucking i hear
Dec 26 18:09:35 <timeless_mbp> probably 1.0 => 1.0.1 => 1.1 => 1.2 => 1.3
Dec 26 18:09:43 <timeless_mbp> sivang: not infra
Dec 26 18:09:52 <timeless_mbp> but *need* to use different strings
Dec 26 18:09:56 <sivang> timeless_mbp: ah!
Dec 26 18:09:57 <sivang> I see
Dec 26 18:10:02 <sivang> interesting problem indeed.
Dec 26 18:10:03 <timeless_mbp> because some idiot changed foo_string from "%s" to "%s %s"
Dec 26 18:10:09 <sivang> oh geesz
Dec 26 18:10:17 <timeless_mbp> thus if i use a "%s %s" string in an older version...
Dec 26 18:10:18 <timeless_mbp> BAD
Dec 26 18:10:19 * sivang understands the problem to its fullest now
Dec 26 18:10:30 <nox-> eww
Dec 26 18:10:41 <timeless_mbp> note: technically more than one idiot
Dec 26 18:11:07 <timeless_mbp> (that makes it all better, right?)
Dec 26 18:11:16 <sivang> so there's gotta be a way then, I'm sure DocScrutinizer or someone will know :)
Dec 26 18:11:31 <timeless_mbp> sivang: i already deal w/ it for 1.1=>1.2
Dec 26 18:11:39 <timeless_mbp> i just need to pick the right condition for 1.2=>1.3
Dec 26 18:11:47 <timeless_mbp> and using a meta package or similar is absolutely wrong
Dec 26 18:11:48 <sivang> how do you deal with it there?
Dec 26 18:11:53 <sivang> timeless_mbp:  I gree completely
Dec 26 18:12:02 <timeless_mbp> i check for the package that broke the abi fo strings in 1.2 :)
Dec 26 18:12:05 <timeless_mbp> which was libhildon
Dec 26 18:12:17 <timeless_mbp> for =>1.3 it looks like i get to check address book
Dec 26 18:12:22 <timeless_mbp> since that's the offender i can see
Dec 26 18:12:31 <timeless_mbp> but first i need to deal w/ a mismerge or three
Dec 26 18:12:38 <timeless_mbp> dealing w/ packaging is a minor hickup
Dec 26 18:12:59 <timeless_mbp>  msgid "ai_sb_update_nokia_%d"
Dec 26 18:12:59 <timeless_mbp> -msgstr "Ovi software (%d)"
Dec 26 18:13:00 <timeless_mbp> +msgstr "Nokia software (%d)"
Dec 26 18:13:02 * timeless_mbp is amused
Dec 26 18:14:18 <DocScrutinizer> timeless_mbp: from a Qt-Linguist perspective "foo %s" and "foo %s %s" are distinct strings that can coexist
Dec 26 18:14:30 <timeless_mbp> DocScrutinizer: linguist is stupid
Dec 26 18:14:49 <timeless_mbp> a localization tool is only as useful as its understanding of inputs
Dec 26 18:14:51 <DocScrutinizer> ok, nevermind then
Dec 26 18:15:05 <timeless_mbp> you're looking at input "foo %s" output "%s FOO"
Dec 26 18:15:19 <timeless_mbp> the input is "foo_1" the output was "foo %s" the new output is "foo %s %s"
Dec 26 18:15:35 <timeless_mbp> and linguist would need to compare either a pot or a pair of po's to recognize that there's an abi break
Dec 26 18:16:03 <timeless_mbp> note: in some ways nokia gets things right
Dec 26 18:16:15 <timeless_mbp> if i want to *fix* the US English for a program, I shouldn't have to source hack it
Dec 26 18:16:23 <timeless_mbp> and i shouldn't be screwed by a code string freeze
Dec 26 18:16:41 <timeless_mbp> you solve this by using identifiers in the code instead of _("what you might see %s")
Dec 26 18:16:51 <timeless_mbp> but if you use identifiers, you must *not* recycle them
Dec 26 18:17:00 <timeless_mbp> and that's where nokia gets things wrong
Dec 26 18:17:23 <juk> yaiks
Dec 26 18:17:25 <timeless_mbp> -- the other problem with using _("%s - %s") is that you typically fail to provide context
Dec 26 18:17:42 <alterego> My gfs mum got me this neat new mouse.
Dec 26 18:17:47 <timeless_mbp> which means that if you need to translate one as "%s / %s" and another as "%s : %s", your screwed
Dec 26 18:18:24 <timeless_mbp> again, using unique identifiers avoids that version of problems
Dec 26 18:18:34 <timeless_mbp> but again, you can't recycle an identifier to mean *something else*
Dec 26 18:18:40 <timeless_mbp> identifiers are cheap, (unless you're idiots)
Dec 26 18:18:47 <DocScrutinizer-8> timeless_mbp: nonsense. Qt tr() is looking up translation in a table with primary key 'foo %s',
Dec 26 18:19:03 <timeless_mbp> DocScrutinizer-8: again, that's not how the code works
Dec 26 18:19:09 <timeless_mbp> it uses tr("my_identifier")
Dec 26 18:19:12 <DocScrutinizer-8> then the resulting translation is fed to printf()
Dec 26 18:19:20 <timeless_mbp> you're making a stupid assumption
Dec 26 18:19:31 <timeless_mbp> and ignoring the fact that i'm *telling* you that we don't use _() or tr() that way
Dec 26 18:19:36 <timeless_mbp> and we shouldn't
Dec 26 18:19:44 <timeless_mbp> for the reason i describe in the "%s - %s" problem
Dec 26 18:20:31 <timeless_mbp> s/your screwed/you're screwed/
Dec 26 18:20:38 * timeless_mbp needs breakfast, lunch and dinner
Dec 26 18:20:56 <DocScrutinizer-8> obviously
Dec 26 18:21:39 <juk> yaiks goes here
Dec 26 18:22:09 <timeless_mbp> hrm, maybe address book was in the 1.2 abi break?
Dec 26 18:22:13 * timeless_mbp kinda got totally lost
Dec 26 18:22:23 <timeless_mbp> a maze of twisty strings all similar
Dec 26 18:22:35 <timeless_mbp>  msgid "inpu_ib_quick_layout_switch"
Dec 26 18:22:36 <timeless_mbp> -msgstr "Keyboard layout switched to %s"
Dec 26 18:22:36 <timeless_mbp> +msgstr "Keyboard layout swapped"
Dec 26 18:22:52 <timeless_mbp> DocScrutinizer-8: think of that as tr("inpu_ib_quick_layout_switch")
Dec 26 18:23:00 <timeless_mbp> inpu_ib_quick_layout_switch is the primary key
Dec 26 18:23:17 <timeless_mbp> and one .ts file has "Keyboard layout swapped" and another has "Keyboard layout switched to %s"
Dec 26 18:29:47 <DocScrutinizer-8> now let me say for all I understand how tr() is supposed to work that's a completely wrecked and gimme-trouble way to use it
Dec 26 18:30:56 * timeless_mbp shrugs
Dec 26 18:31:02 <timeless_mbp> tr() and _() are stupid
Dec 26 18:31:13 <DocScrutinizer-8> tr() when missing .po is using the original string. So original and translation MUST have same number of %variables
Dec 26 18:31:19 <timeless_mbp> the way that they were "designed" to work fail for the reasons i've described above for "%s - %s"
Dec 26 18:31:40 <lcuk> DocScrutinizer-8, the way timeless explained it is more sensible than using printf style things in - simply for the case of duplication as he outlined
Dec 26 18:32:02 <timeless_mbp> DocScrutinizer-8: and simply put the "fallback case" is something which package management should solve
Dec 26 18:32:06 <lcuk> and missing translation files are a bug in themselves
Dec 26 18:32:12 <timeless_mbp> you shouldn't be allowed to provide a localization that's incomplete
Dec 26 18:32:21 <DocScrutinizer-8> uhu
Dec 26 18:32:22 <timeless_mbp> that's a *reasonable* requirement
Dec 26 18:32:28 <lcuk> timeless_mbp, for fremantle we attempted afaik to make EN_GB as default fallback
Dec 26 18:32:37 <timeless_mbp> otoh, requiring localizers to be able to split themselves in n ways is a mess
Dec 26 18:32:56 <timeless_mbp> lcuk: 1.1, 1.2, or 1.3? :)
Dec 26 18:33:16 <timeless_mbp> or do you mean that the device's libc will pull in en_GB strings automatically?
Dec 26 18:33:16 <lcuk> hold on I will find the bug, i cant recall off hand whether we had to roll it back
Dec 26 18:33:20 <lcuk> gimme a mo
Dec 26 18:33:28 <timeless_mbp> i'm going to hunt dinner
Dec 26 18:33:30 <timeless_mbp> else i starve
Dec 26 18:33:34 <timeless_mbp> which isn't a good idea
Dec 26 18:33:35 <lcuk> sounds better
Dec 26 18:33:38 <lcuk> enjoy \o
Dec 26 18:34:01 * alterego looks at his 1.0 roadmap
Dec 26 18:34:07 * timeless_mbp picks the n900 w/ a sim and working stuff
Dec 26 18:34:23 <DocScrutinizer-8> well, you're free to mess up a simple concept any way you like. For  the sake of 'duplicity' (whatever that means) and losing elementary properties like failsafe fallback
Dec 26 18:34:27 <alterego> You have more than one? :D
Dec 26 18:34:56 <juk> in the mean time did you know that Christ was circumsized
Dec 26 18:35:13 <alterego> Me too
Dec 26 18:35:14 <timeless_xchat> he was jewish. ..
Dec 26 18:35:21 <alterego> I mean, he was a jew ...
Dec 26 18:35:30 <timeless_xchat> kinda hard to skip
Dec 26 18:35:40 <timeless_xchat> at age 8 days
Dec 26 18:35:49 <juk> yaiks
Dec 26 18:36:35 <timeless_xchat> fwiw, there's a way to do it on the 9th day w/o having been sick
Dec 26 18:36:57 * timeless_xchat doubts anyo
Dec 26 18:37:09 * timeless_xchat doubts anyone here would know
Dec 26 18:37:27 <DocScrutinizer-8> now I finally get why diablo is coming up with shit like 'tana_fi_home_thumbnail' since years - finally \o/
Dec 26 18:38:01 <sivang> does maemo carry /etc/lsb-release?
Dec 26 18:38:05 <sivang> if it would that would be useful
Dec 26 18:38:14 <timeless_xchat> the general rule is to do it on the 8th day even if it's the sabbath
Dec 26 18:38:36 <timeless_xchat> lsb-release *isn't* useful
Dec 26 18:38:56 <sivang> since once the pkg gets installed, it is by spec not supposed to get removed
Dec 26 18:39:07 <sivang> timeless_xchat: well, it is sueful if you use it so :)
Dec 26 18:39:12 <timeless_xchat> the general exception is if the boy is ill
Dec 26 18:39:35 <timeless_xchat> sivang, part of lsb is rpm...
Dec 26 18:39:47 <sivang> ?
Dec 26 18:39:49 <sivang> timeless_xchat: ?
Dec 26 18:40:49 <ShadowJK> yeah you need rpm for lsb :)
Dec 26 18:42:01 <sivang> onmeego?
Dec 26 18:42:07 <sivang> hrm, or dpkg on debian?
Dec 26 18:42:28 <ShadowJK> lsb requires rpm support
Dec 26 18:42:38 <ShadowJK> iirc
Dec 26 18:42:40 <sivang> wait wait a sec
Dec 26 18:42:51 <sivang> so, lsb required that rpm will be possible to use on the platform?
Dec 26 18:43:02 <timeless_xchat> more or less
Dec 26 18:43:12 * ShadowJK nods
Dec 26 18:43:49 <sivang> god
Dec 26 18:43:57 <sivang> $DEITY
Dec 26 18:44:06 <sivang> I'm a bit surprised
Dec 26 18:45:40 * ShadowJK suspects they picked rpm because most non-rpm distros have tools to deal with rpms anyway
Dec 26 18:46:13 <juk> timeless_xchat: is there a special qualification for the job
Dec 26 18:46:47 <sivang> juk: for circumsicion?
Dec 26 18:47:13 <juk> sivang: yes
Dec 26 18:47:38 <sivang> juk: I think you have to be a Rebbi
Dec 26 18:47:55 <sivang> juk: with special training for this, nowdays most of them also hold M.D
Dec 26 18:48:07 <sivang> juk: well, not most, but those most wanted in the cemermony
Dec 26 18:48:09 <sivang> :)
Dec 26 18:48:15 <DocScrutinizer> now by reading backscroll, I notice what you meant with duplicity and '%s - %s' problem. Qt *has* context for that. You either set it explicitly, or it's implicitly taken from source-file name, and maybe also function/object name
Dec 26 18:49:22 <timeless_xchat> sivang : no
Dec 26 18:49:34 <timeless_xchat> traditional a father would do it
Dec 26 18:49:42 <timeless_xchat> mohel is the term to google
Dec 26 18:49:54 <sivang> timeless_xchat: interesting. I was sure you had to take a mohel for that.
Dec 26 18:50:08 <DocScrutinizer> this way your "identifiers" are perfect when looking like "foo %s" or even "%s", and you can distinguish between "%s" in one location and "%s" in another. And tell that apart from "%s %s"
Dec 26 18:50:09 <juk> timeless_xchat: point taken
Dec 26 18:50:22 <DocScrutinizer> and have sane fallback when pot is missing
Dec 26 18:50:25 <timeless_xchat> sivang : traditionally = milenia ago
Dec 26 18:50:31 <sivang> timeless_xchat: ah :)
Dec 26 18:50:45 <DocScrutinizer> but meh, Nokia gets it right sometimes :-P
Dec 26 18:51:25 <luke-jr> Feast of the Circumcision is on Jan 1 fwiw
Dec 26 18:51:25 <timeless_xchat> docscrutinizer: people don't get context right
Dec 26 18:51:35 <DocScrutinizer> MUHAHA
Dec 26 18:51:47 <timeless_xchat> it's almost universally unused
Dec 26 18:51:56 <DocScrutinizer> ok so let's fuck it up fubar, so maybe it gets better than - QED
Dec 26 18:51:58 <sivang> DocScrutinizer: how do you define the context in this case? where the string is useD? mid?
Dec 26 18:52:37 <timeless_xchat> docscrutinizer, screwing up identifiers takes considerably more talent than missing context
Dec 26 18:52:47 <DocScrutinizer> sivang: all that is explained to epic length and detail in Qt linguist manual
Dec 26 18:52:48 <timeless_xchat> but yes, our ui designers are talented
Dec 26 18:53:20 <timeless_xchat> sivang, gettext has a dgettext and a something gettext where you provide context
Dec 26 18:53:32 <timeless_xchat> but the reality is that it isn't done right/well/ever
Dec 26 18:54:00 <timeless_xchat> and it requires *much* more understanding on the part of coders than using identifiers
Dec 26 18:54:15 <timeless_xchat> also people make various stupid assumptions
Dec 26 18:54:16 <sivang> timeless_xchat: ah okay, so setting "app context" like you do from gtk?
Dec 26 18:54:25 <timeless_xchat> like "english is a useful fallback"
Dec 26 18:54:44 <sivang> timeless_xchat: most apps just define it for the "app" with default, e.g. not providing policy at least as I seen
Dec 26 18:55:00 <timeless_xchat> if it were useful, or if the user were aware, the user wouldn't use l10n and would stick to english
Dec 26 18:55:04 <timeless_xchat> fewer bugs
Dec 26 18:55:38 <SpeedEvil> timeless_xchat: In principle, a language you are partially fluent in is better than no understandable message.
Dec 26 18:55:39 <sivang> timeless_xchat: I think so as well, but users don't.
Dec 26 18:55:42 <DocScrutinizer> timeless_xchat: LANG=C is a useful fallbeck by definition
Dec 26 18:55:47 <alterego> Heh, I should probably add translation support to my app/s.
Dec 26 18:55:51 <DocScrutinizer> fallback even
Dec 26 18:55:52 <SpeedEvil> That does kinda assume that that language is english though
Dec 26 18:55:58 <timeless_xchat> i suppose dcgettext is the equivalent. ..
Dec 26 18:56:41 <timeless_xchat> speedevil: terrible principle
Dec 26 18:57:06 <timeless_xchat> note that _random_long_string_i_can_google is useful
Dec 26 18:57:18 <sivang> so I can chose domains based on the language for example?
Dec 26 18:57:28 <timeless_xchat> short unintelligible english string missing context is not
Dec 26 18:57:45 <sivang> o based on sepcifci msgids I know are changed wrt to argument interpolation order and stuff?
Dec 26 18:57:45 <timeless_xchat> sivang : you aren't supposed to know about the language
Dec 26 18:57:56 <sivang> timeless_xchat: right, so based on "problematic" msgids?
Dec 26 18:57:59 * nox- also often prefers english locale bc translations are often bad/wrong/not understandable
Dec 26 18:58:05 <timeless_xchat> but basically you might have "new"/"file"
Dec 26 18:58:11 <timeless_xchat> and "new"/"folder"
Dec 26 18:58:23 <timeless_xchat> both might have the string "new"
Dec 26 18:58:32 <sivang> nox-: I've never used Hebrew in computers, when someone addresses me in Hebrew I tend to ask him to accept my english typing as I developed no typing skills in it.
Dec 26 18:58:43 <nox-> heh
Dec 26 18:58:43 <timeless_xchat> but a language might need e.g. feminine or masculine for one/the other
Dec 26 18:59:05 <timeless_xchat> nox: indeed
Dec 26 18:59:11 <timeless_xchat> localizations tend to be awful
Dec 26 18:59:17 <nox-> exactly
Dec 26 18:59:24 <timeless_xchat> it doesn't help that the originals tend to suck
Dec 26 18:59:27 <DocScrutinizer> ok, >>short unintelligible english string missing context is not<< So Nokia decided it's better to have TANA_FI_HOME_THUMB is better then, rather than have "user %s's homescreen" and provide context in a way Qt tr() was designed to do it
Dec 26 18:59:42 <timeless_xchat> but put slightly bad in, get extremely bad out
Dec 26 18:59:55 <timeless_xchat> docscrutinizer : err
Dec 26 18:59:57 <Arkenoi> noticed an annoying thing about n900: if all you have is weak car charger DON'T let it power itself off. Otherwise it will look like that: "see, we have some charger connected, let's power on! oops. battery is empty, shutting down. again. and again.". If you power it off manually, it will have time to charge good enough to survive boot sequence.
Dec 26 18:59:57 <DocScrutinizer> and your whole rant of last 2h proves how much better it is
Dec 26 19:00:05 <timeless_xchat> maemo doesn't use Qt
Dec 26 19:00:16 <timeless_xchat> so please don't list tr() as the problem
Dec 26 19:00:28 <timeless_xchat> and really, googling for tana_ whatever would work
Dec 26 19:00:52 <sivang> Arkenoi: http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9700
Dec 26 19:00:53 <povbot`> Bug 9700: media art not syn'd with artist name and song playing
Dec 26 19:01:08 <DocScrutinizer> meh, I'm out. couldn't bother less to argue about that new old stupidity in maemo
Dec 26 19:01:20 <sivang> DocScrutinizer: hehe, cheers Doc
Dec 26 19:01:48 <sivang> Arkenoi: creds go to DocScrutinizer for giving the input for this FEA
Dec 26 19:01:58 <timeless_xchat> one other design feature of identifiers:
Dec 26 19:02:11 <timeless_xchat> you can immediately recognize when a localization is broken
Dec 26 19:02:19 <timeless_xchat> and what to fix
Dec 26 19:02:57 <timeless_xchat> if someone uses "PERCENTs", you might never realize it isn't translated properly
Dec 26 19:03:12 <sivang> I'm out as well, be back later.
Dec 26 19:03:23 * timeless_xchat doesn't know where percent is on this keyboard 
Dec 26 19:03:44 <alterego> On the N900
Dec 26 19:03:52 <alterego> It's under sym menu :/
Dec 26 19:04:09 <alterego> It's kindof annoying for me actually.
Dec 26 19:04:10 <timeless_xchat> alterego, i don't have sym menu :)
Dec 26 19:04:39 <alterego> I might replace dollar and euro to pipe and percent ..
Dec 26 19:04:53 <alterego> Well, euro â‚
Dec 26 19:05:09 <alterego> I might still use dollar a lot when scripting.
Dec 26 19:05:24 <timeless_xchat> ~$|/\"'@
Dec 26 19:05:30 <timeless_xchat> is my bottom row
Dec 26 19:06:44 <Arkenoi> today is the first time i see a usb flash drive that does not work with n900
Dec 26 19:07:54 <timeless_xchat> you adapt usb often?
Dec 26 19:10:08 <Arkenoi> not really
Dec 26 19:10:11 <Arkenoi> sometimes
Dec 26 19:10:26 <Arkenoi> the connector is ok, i tried with another flash and it worked
Dec 26 19:10:40 <timeless_xchat> how big is the drive?
Dec 26 19:10:49 <timeless_xchat> could be exfat
Dec 26 19:11:16 <Arkenoi> 16gb
Dec 26 19:13:20 <timeless_xchat> afaiu, the SD "standard" is somewhat of a joke
Dec 26 19:13:36 <timeless_xchat> there are lots of levels
Dec 26 19:13:41 <luke-jr> alterego: wtf is â‚?
Dec 26 19:13:45 <timeless_xchat> and then there are the actual cards
Dec 26 19:13:51 <luke-jr> Euro is €
Dec 26 19:14:23 <timeless_xchat> sounds like you guys have encoding issues
Dec 26 19:14:46 <timeless_xchat> iirc a-hat-prefix means latin-1
Dec 26 19:14:49 <alterego> luke-jr: that was me pressing the Euro button on the N900 through xterm, ssh, screen, and irssi :P
Dec 26 19:15:06 <luke-jr> timeless_xchat: I thought Latin-1 was an 8-bit encoding
Dec 26 19:15:14 <luke-jr> alterego: it didn't work right
Dec 26 19:15:33 <alterego> Obviously ...
Dec 26 19:16:03 <timeless_xchat> luke-jr, when decoders don't like things they tend to be split
Dec 26 19:16:59 <timeless_xchat> oh cute
Dec 26 19:17:13 <timeless_xchat> xchat here is using "latin/unicode hybrid"
Dec 26 19:18:18 <juk> well thanks for warmth, good night
Dec 26 19:20:44 * timeless_xchat kicks browser-ui-find
Dec 26 19:20:48 <janne123> hi!
Dec 26 19:20:55 <timeless_xchat> the way it passes enter to web pages is ...
Dec 26 19:20:59 <timeless_xchat> awesome :(
Dec 26 19:21:33 <janne123> i have reflash problem with my nokia n900 and i must do it because i'll sell it tomorrow
Dec 26 19:21:52 <janne123> i tried flasher 3.5 but i
Dec 26 19:21:54 <timeless_xchat> If you input the pound sign as UTF-8 and convert back to ISO 8859-1, it gains a capital A hat (Â) before the pound sign.
Dec 26 19:21:54 <timeless_xchat> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1372544/character-encoding-issue-strange-behaviour-from-pound-signs--with-utf-8-ie6
Dec 26 19:21:55 <janne123> it doesnt work*
Dec 26 19:22:07 <janne123> can someone help me?
Dec 26 19:22:14 <timeless_xchat> luke-jr, so i got it backwards :)
Dec 26 19:25:34 * timeless_xchat would probably be happy trading sym for percent
Dec 26 19:26:04 <luke-jr> timeless_xchat: I'm UTF-8 though
Dec 26 19:26:04 <janne123> hi
Dec 26 19:26:24 <timeless_xchat> luke-jr, his wire is twisty
Dec 26 19:26:32 <janne123> i need help reflashing nokia n900, could someone help me?:)
Dec 26 19:27:00 <ShadowJK> ~flashing
Dec 26 19:27:01 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Dec 26 19:27:39 <janne123> i read it but i have little problem
Dec 26 19:27:46 <psycho_oreos> any of you guys use instinctiv without microSD card inserted into n900? if so does it work without errors?
Dec 26 19:28:41 * ShadowJK fails at mind reading
Dec 26 19:29:36 <psycho_oreos> ShadowJK, at my question?
Dec 26 19:30:50 <ShadowJK> no at the guy that's just saying "it doesnt work" without explaining what he did and what happened next
Dec 26 19:30:53 <ShadowJK> :P
Dec 26 19:31:06 <psycho_oreos> oh
Dec 26 19:32:20 <DocScrutinizer> janne123: yes, someone *could* - if and only if you're providing sufficient info about what you did and where it failed and how
Dec 26 19:32:27 <janne123> C:\Program Files\maemo\flasher-3.5>flasher-3.5.exe -F RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_
Dec 26 19:32:28 <janne123> PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin -f -R
Dec 26 19:32:28 <janne123> flasher v2.5.2 (Sep 24 2009)
Dec 26 19:32:28 <janne123> RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin: %m
Dec 26 19:32:28 <janne123> C:\Program Files\maemo\flasher-3.5>
Dec 26 19:32:48 <janne123> sry, i jusdt tested it again:)
Dec 26 19:33:16 <janne123> so why it doesn't work?
Dec 26 19:33:34 <timeless_xchat> are you an admin?
Dec 26 19:33:34 <ShadowJK> no idea
Dec 26 19:33:36 <psycho_oreos> seems like you split the filename in half and the rest of the command
Dec 26 19:33:38 <timeless_xchat> is it w64?
Dec 26 19:33:43 <DocScrutinizer> your file is not located in current directory?
Dec 26 19:33:57 <janne123> damn
Dec 26 19:34:06 <janne123> i just knew problem
Dec 26 19:34:07 <janne123> testing...
Dec 26 19:34:11 <timeless_xchat> hrm,
Dec 26 19:34:29 * timeless_xchat thinks docscrutinizer wins the tea leave reading contest
Dec 26 19:34:39 <DocScrutinizer> janne123: afaik even windows supports tab filename expansion now
Dec 26 19:34:54 <timeless_xchat> nt4 supported it...
Dec 26 19:35:05 <alterego> Has done for a while in "dos prompt"
Dec 26 19:35:29 * timeless_xchat doesn't recall if 9x ever got that, it might not have
Dec 26 19:35:41 <janne123> it works
Dec 26 19:36:05 <janne123> i forgot to move file to right directory
Dec 26 19:36:12 <ShadowJK> You probably also want to flash both images, without the -R flag, as this one only replaces the OS and not your files and settings.
Dec 26 19:36:21 <DocScrutinizer> janne123: enter >> flasher-3.5.exe -F RX-51_ << then pres tab key. It should expand the RX-51_ part to full filename. If it doesn't you need find actual location of file
Dec 26 19:36:22 <timeless_xchat> yeah, docscrutinizer wins the tea leave reading contest
Dec 26 19:36:23 * psycho_oreos recalls there was a version of windows where you can enable tab completion for command prompt under tweakui
Dec 26 19:36:53 <timeless_xchat> psycho: nt4/5 had interesting defaults
Dec 26 19:37:16 <janne123> how u explain this, when i bought phone and old user used opera browser, i installed it with fast application manager and it remembered passwords etc
Dec 26 19:37:18 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: good point
Dec 26 19:37:47 <janne123> should i free up rootfs or something?
Dec 26 19:37:57 <psycho_oreos> timeless_xchat, hehe its been awhile since I last tampered with an old windows machine/setup
Dec 26 19:38:27 <psycho_oreos> janne123, the passwords might not be saved under the flashed location, it might be stored under /home or the eMMC portion
Dec 26 19:38:51 <DocScrutinizer> janne123: read the wiki page about flashing. FIRST flash eMMC/VANILLA, THEN flash COMBINED as you did above
Dec 26 19:38:54 <timeless_xchat> psycho: from memory, the defaults were sane as of 5.1
Dec 26 19:39:03 <timeless_xchat> (xp)
Dec 26 19:39:34 <ShadowJK> janne123, yeah that's what I'm saying, you want to flash both images. The one you just did, but not with the -R flag which causes reboot and is warned against everywhere, and then the emmc image (there's a "vanilla" in the filename)
Dec 26 19:39:51 <DocScrutinizer> (s)he's gone?
Dec 26 19:40:45 <psycho_oreos> timeless_xchat, heh so maybe win2000 may not have it then :)
Dec 26 19:40:45 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: nope, eMMC *first*
Dec 26 19:40:45 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
Dec 26 19:40:45 <timeless_xchat> psycho, it wasn't that it didn't support it
Dec 26 19:40:45 <timeless_xchat> it was more a matter of defaults
Dec 26 19:40:57 <timeless_xchat> i think ms was worried about breaking something
Dec 26 19:41:09 <timeless_xchat> so they left the default behavior
Dec 26 19:41:15 <janne123> oh, only network problem
Dec 26 19:41:18 <timeless_xchat> the nice thing about cmd
Dec 26 19:41:32 <psycho_oreos> then again win2000 had nt kernel
Dec 26 19:41:34 <DocScrutinizer> janne123: wb
Dec 26 19:41:43 <DocScrutinizer> janne123: read the wiki page about flashing. FIRST flash eMMC/VANILLA, THEN flash COMBINED as you did above
Dec 26 19:41:45 <timeless_xchat> is that you have keys for generic completion and for directory completion
Dec 26 19:42:27 <janne123> i flashed succesfully so why i should read flashing quides anymore?
Dec 26 19:42:36 <timeless_xchat> to the extent that my desktop pc runs anything, it runs w2k
Dec 26 19:42:52 <timeless_xchat> janne123, because you did it wrong
Dec 26 19:43:01 <timeless_xchat> there are two flash targets
Dec 26 19:43:03 <DocScrutinizer> janne123: you came here and asked for help. If you don't like the advice you get, please rethink
Dec 26 19:43:14 <timeless_xchat> and you generally want to flash both at once
Dec 26 19:43:39 <timeless_xchat> janne123, but as docscrutinizer notes, it's poor form to ask for help and then ignore it
Dec 26 19:43:47 <janne123> i wanted to reflash, is this wrong now?:)
Dec 26 19:44:03 <timeless_xchat> go READ the wiki
Dec 26 19:44:09 <timeless_xchat> don't do things
Dec 26 19:44:11 <janne123> okay:(
Dec 26 19:44:12 <timeless_xchat> go READ the wiki
Dec 26 19:44:19 <DocScrutinizer> you might have private data on eMMC 32GB storage, which isn't cleared by what you did
Dec 26 19:44:23 <psycho_oreos> janne123, unless you want to leave the previous user's data intact you might want to also flash eMMC
Dec 26 19:44:25 <ShadowJK> If you want to wipe the N900 before selling it, then you want to flash both images. You just reflashed the OS. Your old settings and files are still there, like how you described what happened with opera.
Dec 26 19:45:32 <janne123> oh i understand
Dec 26 19:45:41 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
Dec 26 19:45:45 <janne123> but next problem, how i find quide;)
Dec 26 19:46:15 <DocScrutinizer> sorry?
Dec 26 19:46:19 <DocScrutinizer> ~flashing
Dec 26 19:46:19 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Dec 26 19:46:22 <DocScrutinizer> ???
Dec 26 19:49:53 <janne123> eMMC is the 32GB memory what i try to format, right?
Dec 26 19:50:34 <timeless_xchat> go READ the wiki
Dec 26 19:51:24 <janne123> Flashing the eMMC in the N900 <-- this part of quide, i think:)
Dec 26 19:53:35 * timeless_mbp is home
Dec 26 19:57:20 <janne_123> so, i flash eMMC file like in quide and then pr1.3. file like before today WITHOUT booting?
Dec 26 19:59:00 <timeless_mbp> yes
Dec 26 20:00:48 <janne_123> not too hard, i hope
Dec 26 20:03:20 <timeless_mbp> it's just a matter of following instructions...
Dec 26 20:04:46 <GAN900> Jaffa,  mwkn yes/no?
Dec 26 20:04:47 <janne_123> i just think why i cant include -R, what -R means in this thing?
Dec 26 20:05:43 <ShadowJK> -R means reboot
Dec 26 20:06:14 <janne_123> oh
Dec 26 20:06:22 <janne_123> big fail if i write it:)
Dec 26 20:06:33 <ShadowJK> :)
Dec 26 20:07:14 <DocScrutinizer> I hope my recent edit made the wiki even a bit more clear (though not regarding -R)
Dec 26 20:07:59 <janne_123> but when i flash FIASCO, why i cant reboot because i have flashed eMMC before that?
Dec 26 20:08:33 <DocScrutinizer> janne_123: actually, since new sequence of 1.:eMMC/2.:rootfs got into wiki, the -R thing isn't such a big fail anymore
Dec 26 20:08:55 <janne_123> okay
Dec 26 20:09:05 <janne_123> so i can write -R now?
Dec 26 20:09:21 <DocScrutinizer> you *can* on second flashing
Dec 26 20:09:51 <DocScrutinizer> you probably need to power down device manually after first flashing
Dec 26 20:10:07 <janne_123> second flashing? do u mean i shouldnt write -R now when i flash it?
Dec 26 20:10:18 <ShadowJK> iirc you can do them after eachother while keeping usb connected
Dec 26 20:10:46 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: that's what we all would expect, but which turned out not to work usually
Dec 26 20:11:14 <ShadowJK> hm, it worked for me when I did it :/
Dec 26 20:11:17 <DocScrutinizer> janne_123: no, please don't use -R
Dec 26 20:11:46 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: without intermediate reboot?
Dec 26 20:12:03 <janne_123> DocScrutinizer, thanks, it was clear answer, i forget -R in this time:)
Dec 26 20:12:17 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, yeah
Dec 26 20:12:46 <ShadowJK> I flashed without -R, device stays in flashing mode, I flashed the second image
Dec 26 20:12:48 <DocScrutinizer> amazing
Dec 26 20:13:25 <DocScrutinizer> I never tried by myself, but heard several complaints about it doesn't work
Dec 26 20:14:56 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: time to publish a flashing script, I guess :-)
Dec 26 20:20:44 <van_> merry christmas
Dec 26 20:20:46 <DocScrutinizer> echo "please remove battery and plug in the N900 USB to PC. Then hit Enter on PC" && read && echo "please insert the battery now" && $FLASH-EMMC-WITHOUT-MINUSR && echo "flashing eMMC done, now starting to flash COMBINED. If process hangs, please remove and re-insert battery" && $FLASH-COMBINED && echo "flashing process succeeded!"
Dec 26 21:02:46 <DocScrutinizer> umm
Dec 26 21:02:51 <DocScrutinizer> ~botsnack
Dec 26 21:02:51 <infobot> DocScrutinizer: :)
Dec 26 21:09:41 <RST38h> Evening. Or something.
Dec 26 21:10:10 <RST38h> DocScrutinizer: How is suffering tonight?
Dec 26 21:11:25 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: real fun. can't decide whether to head out searching for food, or investigate some weird cookie from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php containing a token to download img-files
Dec 26 21:12:00 <RST38h> Isn't it...mm...a bit too late for foraging?
Dec 26 21:12:28 <Arkenoi> what is error -71 for USB device?
Dec 26 21:14:37 <lcuk> hey RST38h \o
Dec 26 21:14:43 <RST38h> ehlo lcuk
Dec 26 21:17:31 <DocScrutinizer> wonder if "POST /nokia_N900.php device=3472728636&submit=send" is needed, or if it will suffice to "POST /nokia_N900.php device=3472728636&agree=I+accept"
Dec 26 21:18:10 <Arkenoi> actually that problematic flash drive *works*. but it takes about 2-3 minutes to successfully enumerate
Dec 26 21:18:20 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Dec 26 21:20:13 * DocScrutinizer also wonders how to send a HTTP POST at all, with anything different to a plain netcat
Dec 26 21:20:28 <DocScrutinizer> and obviously not with a browser :-)
Dec 26 21:21:06 <DocScrutinizer> aiui wget can't do that?
Dec 26 21:22:14 <DocScrutinizer> Arkenoi: which brand and model?
Dec 26 21:23:08 <Arkenoi> there are "device descriptor read/64 error -71"s and "device not accepting address XX, error -71" before that.
Dec 26 21:23:37 <Arkenoi> jetflash transcend 16Gb
Dec 26 21:24:19 <DocScrutinizer> Arkenoi: yeah, this read/64 error -71(?) seen frequently. No idea what that means
Dec 26 21:25:13 <DocScrutinizer> I'd have to dig it up in source
Dec 26 21:32:41 <DocScrutinizer> (cookie) also will that cookie always have a name of nokiaN900d11agreed22 ?
Dec 26 21:34:38 <DocScrutinizer> meh, I think there's no sane way to implement a custom FIASKO img file download, with low effort (i.e. inside a script)
Dec 26 21:35:31 <DocScrutinizer> FIASCO*
Dec 26 21:35:42 <DocScrutinizer> timeless_mbp: been faster than you :-D
Dec 26 21:35:51 <timeless_mbp> ?
Dec 26 21:36:06 <timeless_mbp> sorry, i'm staring at nokia-messaging
Dec 26 21:36:06 <DocScrutinizer> corrected my typo before you did :-)
Dec 26 21:36:12 <timeless_mbp> good for you :)
Dec 26 21:36:18 <DocScrutinizer> :-P
Dec 26 21:37:31 <DocScrutinizer> talking bout typos:
Dec 26 21:37:50 * timeless_mbp sighs
Dec 26 21:37:52 * timeless_mbp kicks something
Dec 26 21:37:54 * DocScrutinizer throws an 'a' at http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php flsher
Dec 26 21:37:57 * timeless_mbp goes back to do things again
Dec 26 21:38:09 <timeless_mbp> file a bug, there are people who actually fix those pages :o
Dec 26 21:38:17 <DocScrutinizer> LOL
Dec 26 21:38:23 <DocScrutinizer> mehehehe
Dec 26 21:49:56 <timeless_mbp> Trizt: ok, so, i've gotten a slightly better set up
Dec 26 21:50:14 <timeless_mbp> unfortunately you get to do the uninstall + reinstall flavor because it isn't a version bump
Dec 26 21:50:26 * timeless_mbp goes to fish for a better package for a certain file
Dec 26 22:03:35 <DocScrutinizer> timeless_mbp: wouldn't it be reasonable to require that the symbolic name contains a hint about the parameters? Like TANA_FI_FOO_%4dSEC_%sRESULT. This way you'd never experience 're-use of indentifiers on ABI break', and you also would avoid any ABI break on missing translation file, which could otherwise cause a SEGV or whatever
Dec 26 22:04:10 <timeless_mbp> DocScrutinizer: one or two teams try doing that
Dec 26 22:04:17 <DocScrutinizer> :-)
Dec 26 22:04:19 <timeless_mbp> the problem with that is it breaks one of the invariants
Dec 26 22:04:32 <timeless_mbp> which is that a user who sees an unlocalized string can file a bug for it
Dec 26 22:04:49 <timeless_mbp> if you have a value of %s = "", then you might end up w/ TANA_FI_FOO__BAR
Dec 26 22:05:02 <DocScrutinizer> yep, I see
Dec 26 22:05:07 <timeless_mbp> and not realize it's actually TANA_FI_FOO_%s_BAR
Dec 26 22:06:05 <DocScrutinizer> assuming the leading part is unique, this wouldn't really break anything, no?
Dec 26 22:06:33 <timeless_mbp> given how dumb our ui designers are
Dec 26 22:06:47 <timeless_mbp> it'd be trivial for them to have TANA_FI_FOO_%d and TANA_FI_FOO_%s
Dec 26 22:06:55 <DocScrutinizer> maybe use TANA_FI_FOO_#%4dSEC_#%sRESULT
Dec 26 22:06:58 <timeless_mbp> if %s is 0, then you're stuck
Dec 26 22:07:16 <DocScrutinizer> oops
Dec 26 22:07:20 <DocScrutinizer> :-P
Dec 26 22:07:26 <timeless_mbp> there's also the case where %s actually expands to *another* identifier
Dec 26 22:07:27 <timeless_mbp> this i
Dec 26 22:07:32 <timeless_mbp> s actually relatively common
Dec 26 22:08:32 <DocScrutinizer> well, a unique delimiter like # between first identifier part and second half parameter list would do
Dec 26 22:09:24 <DocScrutinizer> then teach ui designers everything after # is irrelevant
Dec 26 22:09:38 <DocScrutinizer> they might have heard that before
Dec 26 22:09:41 * timeless_mbp sighs
Dec 26 22:09:48 <timeless_mbp> teaching ui designers is clearly hard
Dec 26 22:09:53 <DocScrutinizer> lol
Dec 26 22:10:01 <timeless_mbp> remember, they're the problem here :)
Dec 26 22:10:04 <DocScrutinizer> k, nm
Dec 26 22:10:22 <DocScrutinizer> just felt like mentioning it a last time
Dec 26 22:10:36 <timeless_mbp> but yeah, things like this are more or less the ways you could approach it
Dec 26 22:10:44 <timeless_mbp> but this last bit is really the killer
Dec 26 22:10:54 <timeless_mbp> ui designers come and go, and no useful training or enforcement comes
Dec 26 22:11:19 <timeless_mbp> to get something that doesn't suck, you'd need to enforce api rules which are stricter than api rules used for C and similar methods
Dec 26 22:11:37 <timeless_mbp> and you'd need someone to actually review ui designs w/ l10n/l12y concerns in mind
Dec 26 22:11:48 <timeless_mbp> apparently around maemo2-3 they had a "process" for this
Dec 26 22:12:01 <DocScrutinizer> :nod:
Dec 26 22:12:05 <timeless_mbp> but around maemo4 they discovered it was "overhead" and chose to "drop" it
Dec 26 22:12:21 <timeless_mbp> note that the process almost certainly didn't work
Dec 26 22:12:27 <timeless_mbp> so dropping it wasn't really wrong
Dec 26 22:12:42 <timeless_mbp> (i found errors in maemo2/3 strings just as easily as later ones)
Dec 26 22:12:58 <timeless_mbp> the problem is that while the step is necessary, you need to have someone clueful sitting in that step
Dec 26 22:14:26 * DocScrutinizer waves
Dec 26 22:15:06 <DocScrutinizer> fed up with nokiaN900d11agreed22
Dec 26 22:17:20 * Gh0sty sends DocScrutinizer a duvel 
Dec 26 22:17:39 <DocScrutinizer> HAHAHA, could use strace $BROWSER to find out which location user downloaded http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php?f=RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2.002_PR_COMBINED_002_ARM.bin to
Dec 26 22:17:46 <Gh0sty> that should get your mind off cursing :p
Dec 26 22:18:04 <DocScrutinizer> ~dict duvel
Dec 26 22:18:06 <infobot> could not find definition for duvel
Dec 26 22:18:33 <Gh0sty> !google duvel moortgat
Dec 26 22:18:33 <zgoldberg> Results for duvel moortgat on Google:
Dec 26 22:18:34 <zgoldberg> --
Dec 26 22:18:46 <Gh0sty> the best belgian beer there is :p
Dec 26 22:18:56 <DocScrutinizer> aaah nice
Dec 26 22:19:27 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, exactly what I planned to do: go out, get a beer, and finally some decent food
Dec 26 22:19:30 <Gh0sty> you never drunk that? :o
Dec 26 22:19:43 <Gh0sty> you should definately come to fosdem then! :P
Dec 26 22:19:49 <Gh0sty> there is a hole in your culture! :P
Dec 26 22:20:02 <Gh0sty> http://www.duvel.be/
Dec 26 22:21:02 <Gh0sty> great ... a friggin flash website which is broken due to custom implementation of scrollbars
Dec 26 22:21:08 <Gh0sty> marketing people SUCK!
Dec 26 22:21:49 <timeless_mbp> sp3000: grr
Dec 26 22:21:57 <timeless_mbp> why would the repository not have accurate info?
Dec 26 22:22:13 <DocScrutinizer> nspluginviewer: SEGV
Dec 26 22:22:18 <Gh0sty> http://www.duvelmoortgat.be/index.php?id=en-duvel @ DocScrutinizer
Dec 26 22:22:25 <Gh0sty> should give you an idea :p
Dec 26 22:22:41 <Gh0sty> 8.5%
Dec 26 22:23:09 <DocScrutinizer> :-o
Dec 26 22:23:12 <Gh0sty> the -foolish- challenge exists that you get a cash deposit if you drink 10 in 1 hour and can still stand up straight :p
Dec 26 22:23:33 <Gh0sty> most people need to be taken away due to alcohol poisoning :p
Dec 26 22:24:17 <DocScrutinizer> after 10 beer in 1 hour I have even mere volume problems
Dec 26 22:24:26 <Gh0sty> :)
Dec 26 22:24:30 * timeless_mbp sighs
Dec 26 22:24:36 * timeless_mbp *hates* this crap
Dec 26 22:24:37 <Gh0sty> duvel is just too heavy ... its not possible ... :p
Dec 26 22:24:44 <DocScrutinizer> I couldn't drink this amount of tap water
Dec 26 22:24:50 <Gh0sty> me neither :)
Dec 26 22:24:58 <Gh0sty> and I dont do foolish drinking games either
Dec 26 22:25:05 <Gh0sty> I enjoy a beer, a couple of beers
Dec 26 22:25:13 <Gh0sty> but drinking to get drunk ... is not my thing
Dec 26 22:25:21 <DocScrutinizer> and that's what I'll do now
Dec 26 22:25:28 <Gh0sty> enjoy! :)
Dec 26 22:25:30 <DocScrutinizer> find me a beer
Dec 26 22:25:34 <DocScrutinizer> o/
Dec 26 22:25:42 <Gh0sty> I go for a jenever :p p
Dec 26 22:25:51 <Gh0sty> in the bar cabinet downstairs ;)
Dec 26 22:26:46 <Ehee> Hi all does anyone know if the N800 USB hardware and Diablo support isochronous I/O?
Dec 26 22:26:59 <Ehee> I have seen some people using web cams in host mode using kernel mods but i cant seem to find if they are using isochronous I/O. I would like to use libusb1 in isochronous mode to pull data from MS kinect and pass the data off via wifi. I have libusb1 and a test app built and the device connected and showing up in /dev/bus/usb... but i get errors when trying to use isochronous transfer to the cam d
Dec 26 22:26:59 <Ehee> evice.
Dec 26 22:27:52 <DocScrutinizer> Ehee: afaik the musb driver is missing the relevant bits
Dec 26 22:29:13 <DocScrutinizer> Ehee: dunno about N800 hardware
Dec 26 22:29:46 <micadeyeye> I have a quick question. I want to build a package on pandaboard(OMAP 4430 processor), and I was wondering if I would be able to install the package on Nokia N900 (OMAP 3430 device). Which the package be successfully installed on the N900?
Dec 26 22:30:31 <timeless_mbp> ?
Dec 26 22:30:52 <DocScrutinizer> where's my tea leafes
Dec 26 22:31:12 <timeless_mbp> if you use the right sdk/libraries/headers/compiler/....
Dec 26 22:31:33 <DocScrutinizer> meh, hop. Better than tea
Dec 26 22:32:09 <micadeyeye> timeless_mbp: thanks.
Dec 26 22:33:32 <Ehee> Doc: could you explain what bits are missing? i am using a custom build of libusb1 to connect so im not sure what parts of musb would be used
Dec 26 22:48:55 <SpeedEvil> Ehee: musb is Mentor USB - it's the host adaptor in the SoC
Dec 26 22:49:28 <SpeedEvil> Ehee: The driver is basically rather broken for host-mode, and only works in a very limited fashion.
Dec 26 22:50:01 <SpeedEvil> Ehee: So, ou might need to finish off the driver, and add isochronous mode. I don't know - I've never looked at it from that angle.
Dec 26 22:57:17 <Ehee> Speed: with a bit more digging and debug output i am getting a message to large error from a call to ioctl in the libusb1 code. It looks like the data being sent to the dev might be exceeding the max packet size. Do you know if /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/usb1/bMaxPacketSize0 is the size of the largest packet that can be sent on the bus for any device?
Dec 26 22:58:53 <SpeedEvil> No idea.
Dec 26 22:59:04 <Ehee> hmm ok
Dec 26 22:59:07 <SpeedEvil> Are you sure it in fact implements isochronus transfers at all?
Dec 26 22:59:29 <Ehee> the code i have, yes it is using iso
Dec 26 22:59:29 <SpeedEvil> The driver is not a complete hostmode driver, bits have been left off
Dec 26 22:59:37 <SpeedEvil> Not the code - the driver
Dec 26 22:59:41 <Ehee> ahh
Dec 26 22:59:57 <Ehee> you mean the host mode driver in the kernel?
Dec 26 23:02:27 <Ehee> i aboxm not loading any drivers that are not part of the base kernel. the devices are found and added to /dev... then the code i have uses libusb1 to manualy comunicate with the devices. the code works fine in scratchbox running on ubuntu so my guess is its the kernel usb drivers or the hardware that is causing the issues.
Dec 26 23:03:21 <SpeedEvil> yes - the kernel USB drivers I mean - the host controller.
Dec 26 23:03:25 <SpeedEvil> It is one module.
Dec 26 23:05:47 <Ehee> ok, thanks whats the host mode mod name?
Dec 26 23:06:31 <alterego> h-e-n
Dec 26 23:06:41 <GeneralAntilles> Jaffa: cool.
Dec 26 23:06:55 <alterego> Or are you talking specifically kernel module name?
Dec 26 23:07:16 <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure if it's a module. I think it's built-in.
Dec 26 23:07:34 <alterego> The host mode is a module
Dec 26 23:07:49 <alterego> hcd something or other
Dec 26 23:08:28 <GeneralAntilles> $10 Philippe De Swert is having a Nokia Ninja filled Christmas.
Dec 26 23:26:37 <GeneralAntilles> Woo, crazy person spamming my photostream.
Dec 26 23:30:45 <lcuk> GeneralAntilles, wheres link?
Dec 26 23:30:51 <lcuk> you have some awesome cars on there
Dec 26 23:31:06 <lcuk> camera lens so good it can see back in time?
Dec 26 23:31:12 <lcuk> the model T is cool
Dec 26 23:37:45 * timeless_mbp needs a better diff tool
Dec 26 23:38:04 <timeless_mbp> anyone have a diff tool which can use \n\n as the line sep? :)
Dec 26 23:38:19 <FauxFaux> sed!
Dec 26 23:42:21 <GeneralAntilles> http://www.flickr.com/photos/generalantilles/5291376083/
Dec 26 23:42:24 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk: ^
Dec 26 23:42:50 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk: yeah, often cool cars parked in front of the store.
Dec 26 23:42:51 <lcuk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/generalantilles/5269401380/in/photostream/
Dec 26 23:42:57 <GeneralAntilles> I haven't been very good about getting pictures, though.
Dec 26 23:43:05 <lcuk> cool though!
Dec 26 23:43:16 <lcuk> what other stores are nearby then?
Dec 26 23:43:25 <lcuk> or are all these people coming into the bookshop?
Dec 26 23:43:31 <GeneralAntilles> There's a Goodyear rubber store across the street. :P
Dec 26 23:43:32 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah.
Dec 26 23:44:34 <GeneralAntilles> Aperture is mangling my tags.
Dec 26 23:44:41 * GeneralAntilles must've forgotten a delimiter.
Dec 26 23:46:29 <psycho_oreos> I wonder if there's an app for line-in audio recording on n900
Dec 26 23:47:02 <MohammadAG> probably not
Dec 26 23:47:11 <MohammadAG> as you need the 4th pin to switch it to line in
Dec 26 23:48:01 <psycho_oreos> humm bugger thanks
Dec 27 00:02:17 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, fresh good milk :-) time for... 51996
Dec 27 00:06:57 <Pradeep> DocScrutinizer, wts up brov
Dec 27 01:39:28 <DocScrutinizer> printf "%x" 51966
Dec 27 01:40:06 <DocScrutinizer> cafe + 30 :-D
Dec 27 01:40:18 <DocScrutinizer> 0x30
Dec 27 01:40:31 <DocScrutinizer> err nope
Dec 27 01:40:36 <DocScrutinizer> nevermind
Dec 27 01:41:37 <DocScrutinizer> probably I should use a calculator to do the decimal<->hex conversions :-P
Dec 27 01:42:12 <nox-> gdb also works
Dec 27 01:42:20 <DocScrutinizer> yep
Dec 27 01:42:36 <nox-> bbl
Dec 27 01:42:44 <DocScrutinizer> alas infobot is useless
Dec 27 01:43:01 <DocScrutinizer> only knows base-10
Dec 27 01:43:14 <DocScrutinizer> though there she's amazing
Dec 27 01:43:51 <DocScrutinizer> (14 ** 18) + 777
Dec 27 01:44:00 <DocScrutinizer> ~(14 ** 18) + 777
Dec 27 01:44:00 <infobot> 426878854210636742656
Dec 27 01:44:54 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
Dec 27 01:44:59 <DocScrutinizer> ~ 12!
Dec 27 01:44:59 <infobot> i guess 12! is 479,001,600
Dec 27 01:45:47 <DocScrutinizer> ~10 ** 70
Dec 27 01:45:47 <infobot> a number with quite a few digits...
Dec 27 01:45:57 <DocScrutinizer> ~10 ** 40
Dec 27 01:45:57 <infobot> a number with quite a few digits...
Dec 27 01:46:02 <DocScrutinizer> ~10 ** 30
Dec 27 01:46:02 <infobot> a number with quite a few digits...
Dec 27 01:46:12 <DocScrutinizer> ~10 ** 15
Dec 27 01:46:12 <infobot> 1000000000000000
Dec 27 01:48:09 <DocScrutinizer> 65536 ** (1/2)
Dec 27 01:48:19 <DocScrutinizer> ~65536 ** (1/2)
Dec 27 01:48:19 <infobot> 256
Dec 27 01:48:28 <FIQ|n900> oh, so microb actually had support for title="" info
Dec 27 01:48:37 <FIQ|n900> but just in links/images
Dec 27 01:53:11 <FIQ|n900> and not the whole title :(
Dec 27 02:03:50 <pupnik> '.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.' HAPPY FESTIVUS '.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'
Dec 27 02:04:34 <FIQ|n900> hi pupnik
Dec 27 02:04:51 <pupnik> hi FIQ|n900
Dec 27 02:09:47 <DocScrutinizer> hola pupnik
Dec 27 02:13:40 <pupnik> hey DocScrutinizer have a beer
Dec 27 02:15:00 <DocScrutinizer> got a beer
Dec 27 02:15:20 <DocScrutinizer> and got milk for my cafe
Dec 27 02:15:33 <DocScrutinizer> coffee
Dec 27 02:15:49 <pupnik> those taste better if you don't mix em
Dec 27 02:16:15 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, there was like a 90min and a meal in between them
Dec 27 02:16:33 <pupnik> cheetos and tea for me, my man
Dec 27 02:17:33 <pupnik> helps to rotate your bad habits, like car tires
Dec 27 02:21:58 <loft306> anybody about that can tell me wtere to put a CA cert and or what else is needed besides the sasl script to get sasl working for freesoode on the n900?
Dec 27 02:22:46 <loft306> wiit can be PLAIN  like noh DH-BLOWFIST for now
Dec 27 02:22:51 <loft306> *not
Dec 27 02:23:15 <loft306> crap my fingers are failing
Dec 27 02:24:05 <loft306> the error im getting with SSL is like no local cert
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 27 02:59:57 2010