**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Feb 04 02:59:57 2011 Feb 04 03:00:42 i really do believe we'll see nokia push meego phones... i'm hoping at the MWC in a week Feb 04 03:06:05 I hope that whatever they push, it has ARM Feb 04 03:06:59 hah, yeah, that one rumour claiming an intel chip in the n9... unlikely Feb 04 03:15:59 It's gonna be an iPhone Feb 04 03:16:08 Nokia is going to be the new iPhone manufacturer. Feb 04 03:16:46 of course, it's the master plan to ruin iOS! Feb 04 03:49:19 <[q^_^p]> hi for all Feb 04 03:50:31 <[q^_^p]> any one know how i get the remote code for tv on irreco Feb 04 03:51:28 <[q^_^p]> lcd lg 32ld330 Feb 04 04:23:49 thoughts on the engadget/aava thing? Feb 04 04:24:11 linkage if anyone's interested: http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/03/aava-mobile-reportedly-set-to-reveal-medfield-based-android-me/ Feb 04 04:24:46 I'd be surprised if aava ISN'T showcased with every possible OS :) Feb 04 04:25:01 win3.1! Feb 04 04:25:25 m00f rm_you Feb 04 04:26:44 m00 Feb 04 04:27:05 was setting up a new Asus RT-n16 with tomato Feb 04 04:27:18 working out well? Feb 04 04:29:51 stupidly easy Feb 04 04:30:05 yeah, tomato is nice for the routers it supports Feb 04 04:30:24 and the polish is all there Feb 04 04:32:08 also, as to timezones.... i'd point to routers that have a simple "select your timezone from this list based on the GMT offset, and check a DST box", or windows, which has the same setting Feb 04 04:33:05 it's always a thin line to walk in terms of whether you'd confuse a lot of people or piss off a smallish number Feb 04 04:34:15 i still feel like the people who designed the tz system deserve a good strangling T_T Feb 04 04:34:43 as, in this case, M$ got it right... Feb 04 04:35:26 hm? Feb 04 04:36:02 just bitching about having to randomly guess a city in my time zone that's on the other side of the country from me, instead of saying "GMT -6, with DST" Feb 04 04:36:15 Which DST? Feb 04 04:36:19 heh Feb 04 04:36:23 so i just click around on random cities until i get one that says GMT -6 Feb 04 04:36:28 Since the dates vary depending on where you are Feb 04 04:36:31 everyone keeps saying that Feb 04 04:36:39 but there are obviously systems that manage somehow Feb 04 04:36:55 And yeah, guessing cities sucks. Feb 04 04:36:57 like... Windows 95/98/2000/NT/XP/Vista/7? Feb 04 04:37:07 and most router software? Feb 04 04:37:13 and a ton of other devices? Feb 04 04:37:26 Windows always made me pick a city iirc Feb 04 04:37:28 even fscking wristwatches and alarm clocks? Feb 04 04:37:31 there are systems that choose to piss off a small number of people, by not listing there situation Feb 04 04:37:39 it says "Helsinki/Athens/Teheran" iirc :P Feb 04 04:38:05 Though I doubt Iran has DST on same dates as Greece and Finland.. Feb 04 04:39:14 http://imgur.com/xOlcs Feb 04 04:39:27 from my computer, right now, win7 Feb 04 04:39:45 uhm, does canada really start DST at the same time as the states? Feb 04 04:40:42 ah it has offset AND city, that's okay Feb 04 04:40:59 and imgur isn't loading or i'd show the part that was hidden Feb 04 04:41:12 wtf my internet Feb 04 04:41:14 WTB some Feb 04 04:41:46 am i still online> Feb 04 04:41:47 ? Feb 04 04:41:49 SYN Feb 04 04:41:51 PING Feb 04 04:42:12 yes Feb 04 04:42:26 "These limitations have caused problems. For example, before 2005, DST in Israel varied each year and was skipped some years. Windows 95 used rules correct for 1995 only, causing problems in later years. In Windows 98 Microsoft marked Israel as not having DST, forcing Israeli users to shift their computer clocks manually twice a year. The 2005 Israeli Daylight Saving Law established predictable rules using the Jewish calendar but Windows zone files cannot Feb 04 04:42:32 represent the rules' dates in a year-independent way. " Feb 04 04:42:35 * ShadowJK lols Feb 04 04:42:55 heh Feb 04 04:43:09 lol, so the rest of the world's population suffers because Israel can't make up their damn minds Feb 04 04:43:24 yeah, and the US and Canada *would* have had different DST rules *except* that Canada chose to pass the same law as the US about changing it Feb 04 04:43:34 the US can't either Feb 04 04:43:53 DST changed on 2007 for no good *#&$ing reason Feb 04 04:45:09 Look, let's save time and just have the general form of this argument: Is it better to provide options that fit 99% of peoples' situations, or to purposefully leave out 20% of people to make things easier for the remaining 80%? Feb 04 04:45:40 http://i.imgur.com/3QuYc.png Feb 04 04:45:46 that little tickbox Feb 04 04:46:21 anywho, it's dumb Feb 04 04:46:28 DST is dumb Feb 04 04:46:31 yes Feb 04 04:46:35 and any 'solution' can't be 100% Feb 04 04:46:41 But we're all farmers relying on lamps! Feb 04 04:46:45 yeah but they chose the worst one Feb 04 04:46:55 so you like the 80%/20% idea? Feb 04 04:47:41 cater to the 80% and let the 20% change the time on their computer *twice per year* manually? Feb 04 04:47:43 erm, sure Feb 04 04:47:44 why not Feb 04 04:47:54 great. buy a mac. come back when you have one Feb 04 04:47:59 except i think it's more like 98% and 2% Feb 04 04:48:13 and obviously windows is working somehow Feb 04 04:49:26 This farmer's argument is kinda weird, because every farmer I know don't give a shit about the time, they follow the sun Feb 04 04:50:10 IIRC, the popular story about DST is that it was a joke made by Ben Franklin taken out of context Feb 04 04:51:26 It probably makes more sense for factories and offices that typically have strict slavery to the clock - if lights weren't on in daylight anyways :P Feb 04 04:51:46 johnx: so, on sqeeze, which xen packages do i want to install Feb 04 04:54:42 xen-hypervisor-4.0-amd64 ? Feb 04 04:55:27 ah, xen-linux-system-2.6.32-5-xen-amd64 Feb 04 05:10:05 YAY, "Your Nokia product has been serviced and will shortly be available for collection." Feb 04 05:10:14 Lets hope that means I can go and pick it up today Feb 04 05:10:28 or failing that tommorow Feb 04 05:18:23 of course that may mean " Feb 04 05:18:41 mean "your handset is in the post and will take the best part of a week to get here" Feb 04 06:05:21 good morning Feb 04 06:11:00 Where does Modest store its data? Feb 04 06:37:49 wow Feb 04 06:38:05 I started my n900 but forgot to enter pin code Feb 04 06:38:31 now when I picked it up, there are icons and title bars covering the pin code entry screen at strange locations Feb 04 06:38:48 heh Feb 04 06:39:05 ebzzry, probably /home/user in a hidden directory Feb 04 06:39:23 now I got it into a state where I see the hildon app manager and all icons are along a vertical line in the middle of the screen Feb 04 06:48:55 nice Feb 04 06:52:38 heh >>Please kindly note: We are on Chinese New Year Holiday from 28th, Jan, 2011 to 10th, Feb, 2011. All orders in holiday, we will start to ship out on 11th, Feb, 2011. Sorry for any inconvenience.<< Feb 04 06:53:10 ohmy Feb 04 06:54:15 yay. Chinese new year. The one year week of the year where China reminds all companies that there is a potential single point of failure in their supply chain :) Feb 04 06:54:34 s/year week/week of the year/g Feb 04 06:54:35 johnx meant: yay. Chinese new year. The one week of the year of the year where China reminds all companies that there is a potential single point of failure in their supply chain :) Feb 04 06:54:46 * johnx fails Feb 04 06:55:33 moo, johnx Feb 04 06:55:48 m00f Feb 04 06:58:44 bah it forgot the locations of icons during reboot Feb 04 06:58:45 jonwil: or they tagged a sticker on it "FUBAR - happy CNY" Feb 04 06:59:12 * slonopotamus really wonders why his n800 doesn't see mmc card when running 2.6.22-omap1 + diablo patches Feb 04 07:00:58 * DocScrutinizer yawns Feb 04 07:03:11 DocScrutinizer, stop taking my oxygen >:P Feb 04 07:05:10 I'm an anaerobic lifeform Feb 04 07:06:00 what purpose does yawning serve? Just to make the locals comfortable? Feb 04 07:08:18 nah, it's a signal that it's time for coffee Feb 04 07:08:31 I am sure Nokia are going to return my N900 in working order. About the only reason they wouldn't do it is if it was both a.Unfixable and b.Not covered under warranty Feb 04 07:08:53 it's always time for coffee (otherwise it's time for sleep) Feb 04 07:09:12 jonwil: or they are chinese Feb 04 07:10:42 Nokia are Finnish, not Chinese Feb 04 07:13:53 Thank you, Cpt Obvious Feb 04 07:15:29 jonwil: HAH, >>Made in Korea<< Feb 04 07:17:12 DocScrutinizer, just FYI, China != Korea Feb 04 07:17:12 Doc: Or Hungary Feb 04 07:17:51 meh, for me it's just close enough Feb 04 07:18:07 in the same way that Ukraine != Germany Feb 04 07:18:25 hmm Feb 04 07:18:30 heh, your sense of geography is almost ... American :> Feb 04 07:18:51 ORLY Feb 04 07:19:06 yup. I wen there Feb 04 07:19:43 johnx: To Ukraine or toGermany? =) Feb 04 07:19:46 I always thought Korea and China were neighbours, btw unlike Germany and Ukraine Feb 04 07:20:33 Doc: Don't worry it is fixable, just take over Poland (again!) Feb 04 07:20:43 hehehehe Feb 04 07:21:21 one pair separated by quite a bit of water, the other by a country Feb 04 07:21:59 hmm, not as long as you don't specifically say "SOUTH Korea" Feb 04 07:22:01 johnx: The correct wording in this case is "*currently* separated by a country" Feb 04 07:23:40 and for all you know the Chinese gov't might just start some project to fill in the East China Sea :P Feb 04 07:24:28 DocScrutinizer, you specified it in the 'made in Korea' line Feb 04 07:24:31 with Chinese you mean? Feb 04 07:25:39 tekojo: morning Feb 04 07:27:03 morning DocScrutinizer Feb 04 07:31:54 RST38h: we got any idea how many (in %) of the N900 were made in Hungary, and if there's and relation between "made in..." and e.g. USB-off issues? Feb 04 07:36:22 * DocScrutinizer idly mentions he'd be much more excited by Nokia announcing a N900i than by any anticipated N9 Feb 04 07:36:50 or a NOVERNINETHOUSAND Feb 04 07:37:36 DocScrutinizer: troll :P Feb 04 07:37:41 meh Feb 04 07:38:17 did anyone here per chance just buy a Sandy bridge motherboard right before the recall? Feb 04 07:38:37 fix USB issue, add a dunno 1000MHz SoC with 512MB ram - profit Feb 04 07:39:32 tested known design, no huge PV tests... Feb 04 07:40:05 I'd want at least 1 GB RAM Feb 04 07:40:12 and AFAIK changing the SoC is non-trivial Feb 04 07:40:22 yeah... Feb 04 07:40:24 they really should fix the keyboard too Feb 04 07:40:26 it actually is fsckng trivial Feb 04 07:40:35 DocScrutinizer: OpenPandora lies then Feb 04 07:40:52 meh, openpandora Feb 04 07:41:11 trivial for a 5 person company is not the same as trivial for a company that spends Nokia's R&D budget Feb 04 07:41:34 TI won't even bother to sell them what they want if it were an existing SoC Feb 04 07:41:45 johnx: exactly Feb 04 07:42:57 though thermal design might need to be revetted I'd imagine Feb 04 07:43:18 else you get hilarious sheevaplug/guruplug-type issues :) Feb 04 07:43:21 nah, prolly not Feb 04 07:43:49 double the MHz on same generation silicon? Feb 04 07:44:01 I'm assuming you're talking about another OMAP3/A8 part? Feb 04 07:44:16 TI can swap the OneNAND PoP on top of OMAP3430 easily, for a N900i Feb 04 07:45:12 and afaik there are OMAP3430 out in the wild that run @ 800MHz Feb 04 07:45:16 and the OMAP3440 has the same TDP as the N900's OMAP3 (don't remember it's name)? Feb 04 07:45:58 or rather the same TDP @100MHz that the N900's does at 550MHz (is it 600?) Feb 04 07:46:02 N900 has OMAP3430 Feb 04 07:46:16 ah, then I'm even more skeptical Feb 04 07:47:01 TDP is no issue as long as you got a sane management Feb 04 07:47:47 soo, potentially be in a situation where you kick the user out of 1000MHz mode after a while? Feb 04 07:47:56 even now it's not just the CPU that heats up the device, and you need to throttle for UMTS data TX heating issues more often than for OCing Feb 04 07:48:10 johnx: N900 can't even run at 600 MHz constantly. Feb 04 07:48:46 luke-jr, they didn't vet the design at that. Presumably some employees have had theirs overclocked for years now, testing it :) Feb 04 07:49:01 Also, do we have any known OC-related hardware failures documented? Feb 04 07:49:12 johnx: my understanding is that the chips are known to fail within a year if run constantly at 600 MHz Feb 04 07:49:14 see /topic Feb 04 07:49:26 luke-jr: exactly Feb 04 07:49:30 * johnx has topic set to hidden, looks Feb 04 07:49:56 lol @ warranty 4 days ago Feb 04 07:50:06 as if Nokia has any obligation to honour warranty when you OC Feb 04 07:51:11 damn I hate that my n900 is not under warranty any more... Feb 04 07:53:16 heh. well I stand corrected Feb 04 07:53:33 guess they need at least a newer rev to hit 1000MHz stable :) Feb 04 07:53:41 or better thermal management Feb 04 07:59:59 they would need just the same thermal mgmt they got right now, it's sufficient for 600MHz, will as well deal with 800 or 1000 Feb 04 08:00:29 Anyone used Mumble-server recently? I'm having trouble logging in as superuser Feb 04 08:00:46 I.E. limit time at full speed, throttle when overtemp is around the corner Feb 04 08:01:24 DocScrutinizer, and the OC kernels just ignore this or ... ? Feb 04 08:02:04 johnx: OC is killing by electromigration, not by overheating. A VERY common annoying misconception Feb 04 08:02:42 Doesn't it get worse at high temperatures? Or am I misremembering? Feb 04 08:02:59 Also, doesn't overvoltage contribute as well? Feb 04 08:03:38 (been like 10 year since I read that article on overclocking on anandtech or tomshardware or somewhere ...) Feb 04 08:06:31 johnx: Yea, both Feb 04 08:06:35 temperature is a factor, yes. Though not as much as current density (electron wind) is. Overvoltage doesn't apply really for OMAP anyway as SmartReflex has micro regulators for, like, every single gate on chip, so a higher core voltage applied just increases power dissipation of those regulators, while the gates themselves get the voltage they need for the particular clock Feb 04 08:07:30 wow. that's crazy (WRT the micro-regulators) Feb 04 08:09:24 in such a system every weird effect is possible, even killing the CPU by UNDERvolting it Feb 04 08:09:56 only TI knows exactly how their chips behave Feb 04 08:10:47 fun times Feb 04 08:12:07 ah, though speaking of OMAP3@800MHz+512MB of RAM: I've almost convinced myself the next thing to save for is a Nook Color Feb 04 08:15:21 4.8" atom+win7 device arrives today :D Feb 04 08:15:32 wooo ... eh Feb 04 08:15:41 *cough* Feb 04 08:18:02 haltdef, or were you referring to the Aava phones? Feb 04 08:18:36 viliv n5 Feb 04 08:22:45 WRT undervolting: imagine one gate output is delivering a degraded signal due to undervolting limiting the voltage range. Now this poor signal might cause a totem pole stage later in signal path to not properly switch from one state to the other, causing *both* transistors opening partially and creating a short from VDD to GND Feb 04 08:23:12 fun times Feb 04 08:27:32 anybody know how to set up ssh-agent to persist between bash sessions on maemo? Feb 04 08:27:50 use screen? Feb 04 08:28:24 I'm not saying this is likely to happen, I just point to the fact only TI knows how to operate their chips safely, and when TI says "limit operation time @600MHz to 1000h" and also provides a certain voltage regulation profile, then who do those OC fools think they are to know better, and just suggest "undervolting to mitigate OC dangers" Feb 04 08:29:16 I'm pretty sure that no one believes that undervolting mitigates OC dangers. Feb 04 08:29:37 It can't hurt, though - At the least, it will reduce power usage and heat. Feb 04 08:30:49 see above epic length explanation why it doesn't Feb 04 08:31:23 and why it actually CAN hurt Feb 04 08:33:23 Hm... I wonder what my profile would be considered, then. It's about two clicks above the instability level, and it seems to work perfectly well at that Feb 04 08:34:01 And hey - sure, my profile may reduce the total life... but if it lasts two years I'll be amazed - mainly because I'm hard on the exterior of equipment Feb 04 08:34:47 RobbieThe1st, did you read the topic? :) Feb 04 08:35:08 Which one? Feb 04 08:35:24 the 'epic OC death' or whatever :) Feb 04 08:35:30 Probably not Feb 04 08:35:59 I've read the various wiki pages and the long OC topic, weighted it all appropriately, and made my decision months ago Feb 04 08:36:05 short read, 3 pages. guy killed it overclocking. Will have to see if Nokia fixes it for him Feb 04 08:40:25 Johnx: Sorry, I can't find the topic in question Feb 04 08:41:11 Epic OC fatality: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=68795 Feb 04 08:43:01 Thanks Feb 04 08:45:47 got it, you have to put the ssh-agent startup and environment variable stuff in .profile and reboot Feb 04 08:46:16 that way the child shells inherit it Feb 04 08:47:05 mhm, that's how login and env is supposed to work Feb 04 08:48:04 yeah, but I put it in .bash_profile first which I think messed it up Feb 04 08:48:24 I'm sorry to butt in, but where does Modest store its data (the emails themselves) Feb 04 08:49:29 johnx, not that they should Feb 04 08:49:39 looks like ~/.modest Feb 04 08:50:18 mybluevan: thanks Feb 04 08:51:12 Termana, not saying they should, just interested to see the outcome of the thread in a 'watching a train wreck' sort of way Feb 04 08:53:41 bah, still no sign of my N900 :( Feb 04 08:54:08 * SpeedEvil checks the fridge. Feb 04 08:54:11 Nope, not there. Feb 04 08:55:40 Soo, I tried the 'incredibly uninspired blocky and dull theme' and I kinda like it. Does that make me a boring person? Feb 04 08:55:44 If the Nokia warranty setup was as good as the Motorola warranty setup, I would have it back by now Feb 04 08:57:24 Only reason I didnt stick with Motorola and buy a Milestone is all the anti-hacking crap Motorola uses Feb 04 08:57:51 Hackers have been trying from day one and they STILL cant run a custom kernel on the moto phones :P Feb 04 08:58:10 wow. really? Feb 04 08:58:19 I was sure they would have gotten it by now Feb 04 09:00:01 It's quite possible with todays hardware to make 'uncrackable' devices. Feb 04 09:00:25 It's just that generally the effort isn't put in, or not put in competantly. Feb 04 09:00:30 hardware encryption? Feb 04 09:00:40 encryption is one aspect. Feb 04 09:00:46 But signing is a bigger one. Feb 04 09:01:32 For example - if the processor boots from an internal ROM that will only accept a signed bootloader, and then that signed bootloader will only accept a signed kernel, and ... and it's all been done competantly - you're screwed. Feb 04 09:01:45 yeah thats the case for the Motorola phones Feb 04 09:01:47 At least unless you swap the processor. Feb 04 09:02:03 On the Motorola Z6 (my previous phone) they did that Feb 04 09:02:15 but there were holes in the bootloader Feb 04 09:02:33 something to do with the interaction between the baseband processor and the main processor Feb 04 09:02:41 so those holes allowed self-compiled kernels Feb 04 09:02:52 but for the Milestone, no-one has found a hole yet Feb 04 09:04:19 Thats why I bought the N900, it has no such restrictions Feb 04 09:05:49 * SpeedEvil points to the cellmo, bluetooth, wifi, gfx. Feb 04 09:05:51 But yes. Feb 04 09:10:05 SpeedEvil: Well, the fact that the wifi can support packet injection with proper drivers makes it open enough, IMHO. Feb 04 09:15:55 when did pack injection come along? Feb 04 09:16:01 *packet Feb 04 09:16:23 RobbieThe1st: In some ways yes. But for example, it would be nice to be able to fix some peoples issues ith powersave - or even get more detailed debug as to what's going on - with custom firmware. Feb 04 09:16:54 ah, true Feb 04 09:18:16 There are generally valid cases for opening most bits of hardware - even if it seems not at first glance. Of course, just because something is open does not mean that people will be interested enough to develop stuff in a timely manner. Feb 04 09:18:28 Enough people. Feb 04 09:19:25 For example - the remaining openmoko distributions are interesting, and would have been compelling if they'd existed 3 years ago. But it's a relatively few people working on them, so progress is slow. Feb 04 09:56:30 The problem with the OpenMoko stuff and the Freerunner is that the hardware was obsolete even before it went into production. Feb 04 09:56:58 The N900 on the other hand has good hardware IMO Feb 04 09:57:15 haha what? Feb 04 09:57:32 it grinds to a halt if you do a tiny bit of IO Feb 04 09:57:34 though mind you openmoko didn't have the budget like nokia had Feb 04 09:57:47 The problem with OM was software, not hardware. Feb 04 09:58:10 its more or less the same issue with n900 isn't it? :) Feb 04 09:58:20 In xmas 2007, they could have had a working functional phone stack with X/gtk. It was not very pretty, but it basically worked. Feb 04 09:58:44 (based on the march 2007 software stack) Feb 04 09:58:49 The FreeRunner isn't even quad band GSM, let alone EDGE or 3G Feb 04 09:58:55 it has no 3G whatsoever Feb 04 09:58:59 I mean 3D Feb 04 09:59:03 again it was budgeting constraint :) Feb 04 09:59:30 They then went and changed the software stack several times to make it 'shiny', and did the same with the hardware - that got delayed, and turned out to be not great. Feb 04 09:59:37 I think the real problem for FreeRunner people was finding someone willing to let them have the hardware they wanted and to make things open enough Feb 04 10:00:08 and again n900 also failed in that path Feb 04 10:00:13 In another universe, they bugfixed the neo1973, and just sold the damn thing with a working phone stack, some basic apps, and little else. Feb 04 10:00:16 not everything inside n900 was open Feb 04 10:00:18 And use the funds to polish. Feb 04 10:00:30 And then sold lots more. Feb 04 10:00:56 only things on N900 not open on the linux side are the GPU and GPS AFAIK Feb 04 10:01:04 Everything else is open thanks to MeeGo Feb 04 10:01:04 and the bme Feb 04 10:01:08 yeah BME Feb 04 10:01:13 and rapuyama Feb 04 10:01:17 the other recurring problem with freerunner was also the fullMAC atheros wlan aka ar6xxx Feb 04 10:01:21 and the camera firmware Feb 04 10:01:35 fm transmitter Feb 04 10:01:37 etc etc Feb 04 10:01:38 Camera and cellmo firmware (and bluetooth and wifi) run on separate CPUs Feb 04 10:01:51 oh you mean just the software Feb 04 10:02:08 iirc stskeeps had quite an extensive list of proprietary components including software Feb 04 10:02:11 well, half of the gps runs on rapuyama, afaik Feb 04 10:02:30 What I am talking about with closed GPS is that Nokia hasnt documented Feb 04 10:02:43 hasn't documented the isi/phonet calls for GPS Feb 04 10:03:01 whereas for many other parts of the cell modem, they have documented it through ofono Feb 04 10:03:04 and the n900 driver in ofono Feb 04 10:03:47 http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/maemo.org/openness/pr1.1/ Feb 04 10:06:47 Thats for maemo, meego is a lot more open Feb 04 10:07:51 correct but when you were talking about n900 I thought you were referring to its base OS not the new platform which wasn't included as standard on n900 Feb 04 10:09:40 For GPS, hopefully Nokia can publish the specs for the isi/phonet GPS calls. Someone (I forget who) was going to talk to the right person at Nokia. Worst that can happen is that we get a "no, that information wont be made public Feb 04 10:09:45 or no response Feb 04 10:10:27 nah. the worst response is: "we plan to get around to it soon." Feb 04 10:10:40 and never materialises Feb 04 10:10:46 then to have that fall through the cracks, thus removing motivation for someone to reverse engineer it Feb 04 10:10:59 Can you point me to an example of " Feb 04 10:11:06 of "we plan to get to it soon"? Feb 04 10:11:42 the requested open sourcing of a ton of stuff from the Maemo3/4 days Feb 04 10:12:32 might just be my imagination, but I think they've been better lately Feb 04 10:12:42 I don't think they ever claimed they'd open BME Feb 04 10:14:45 Looking at the list of closed meego-on-n900 packages here http://download.meego.com/live/Trunk:/non-oss:/Testing/Trunk_Testing/armv7l/ there seem to be logical reasons for most of them remaining closed Feb 04 10:15:05 BME has been discussed before Feb 04 10:15:20 ditto SGX Feb 04 10:15:24 yup, that's always been straightforward Feb 04 10:15:32 like I said, they've been better in the N900 era Feb 04 10:15:47 but I also haven't been hacking at system-level stuff on the N900 Feb 04 10:17:37 only items there that I question the need to keep closed would be the pulseaudio bits, the sysinfod bits, wl1251-cal and maybe libcal or the -dev package for libbmeipc Feb 04 10:19:35 so then the situation is much better than it used to be :) Feb 04 10:19:43 I'm happy to be wrong :) Feb 04 10:20:04 actually, cloning libbmeipc isnt hard, its knowing all the different messages that get sent to BME via libbmeipc Feb 04 10:22:06 I should mention the situation is better this time around because we have people like you who are happy to roll up their sleeves and jump in :) Feb 04 10:23:04 meh, bme requirement specs are no way reasonable to keep closed as well Feb 04 10:23:39 well if we had the libbmeipc source or even -dev package, we would know everything we need to know to build a replacement BME Feb 04 10:23:50 well everything we need to know to make the replacement compatible with the real thihng Feb 04 10:24:22 and generally Nokia still doesn't really *push* openness. It's more like they tolerate they have to deal with it for linux Feb 04 10:26:14 they still think they can differentiate via software Feb 04 10:26:19 top of my wishlist for openness would be libbmeipc-dev package, info on ICD policy plugins (preferably code for the stock plugins), info in the IncomingCBS dbus signal and info on the isi/phonet calls for GPS Feb 04 10:27:53 isi cmt API (a)gps specs, isi cmt SMSCB specs Feb 04 10:28:36 well SMSCB would be covered by the IncomingCBS signal Feb 04 10:29:04 everything seems to be in place if someone was able to hook up to that signal and do something with the actual messages Feb 04 10:29:09 full datasheet of BB5 rapuyama interfacing Feb 04 10:29:53 jonwil: incoming smscb must get enabled by a command to cmt Feb 04 10:30:14 the gsm stack changes to an other operation mode Feb 04 10:31:38 well in that case there must be something sent via DBUS to csd-sms plugin Feb 04 10:31:44 thats the most logical answer Feb 04 10:31:48 so you have to tell cellmo chip 'please enable smscb' Feb 04 10:32:06 I cant find anything in ofono that handles "enable SMSCB" as such Feb 04 10:32:12 or sends such an "enable" packet Feb 04 10:32:19 yes, maybe. if that's even implemented Feb 04 10:32:41 see that the point Feb 04 10:35:29 There are docs at http://www.wirelessmodemapi.com/ Feb 04 10:35:36 Anything not on ofono is likely to be in there Feb 04 10:37:31 btw, I am sure someone said they were able to see Cell Broadcast messages comming into csd-sms and that the function triggering the IncomingCBS signal was being called Feb 04 10:37:40 cant remember who Feb 04 10:45:58 I know these specs. they are .... err Feb 04 10:47:06 that's why I never bothered to check if they have info about how smscb or gps is supposed to work Feb 04 10:49:12 nothing about GPS, definatly info about CBSMS Feb 04 11:07:51 Everything I have seen inside the n900 stack indicates that CBSMS SHOULD work if we can find out how to talk to the dbus events exported by csd-sms Feb 04 11:07:59 events, signals, methods, whatever it is Feb 04 11:08:19 all we need for GPS on N900 is the isi/phonet GPS calls Feb 04 11:09:35 * SpeedEvil wants psuedoranges. Feb 04 11:09:47 psuedoranges is? Feb 04 11:19:46 jonwil: The raw relative ranges between the GPS and the satellites. Feb 04 11:20:14 jonwil: Using this (and other info) you can - with the aid of another local reciever - correct position to within a meter or so Feb 04 11:21:03 jonwil: Also - if you have more info to feed into the GPS - for example an accellerometer - then bundling that data in with the raw range data can make a much less noisy position solution. Feb 04 11:27:43 I suspect psuedoranges would require support in the cellmo firmware Feb 04 11:27:51 i read that as pseudo oranges Feb 04 11:27:51 thats assuming the GPS chip can do it in the first place Feb 04 11:28:46 jonwil: yes, they would. Feb 04 11:28:52 Yet again were back at the Proprietary vs OSS debate. Proprietary firmware is fine... Until it stops doing what you want. Feb 04 11:29:22 proprietary firmware is a fact of life when you are dealing with cellular standards like GSM, GPRS, UMTS etc Feb 04 11:32:24 kerio: Like, say, a mandarin orange? Feb 04 11:39:11 darn, pdued oranges Feb 04 11:39:19 psued even Feb 04 11:42:01 <`Ika_Musume> humm, can i use my n900 as webcam/mic for pc? Feb 04 11:42:02 proprietary firmware is a fact for all peripherals (chips) that have their own 'embedded' cpu Feb 04 11:42:33 yes Feb 04 11:42:57 I think there's been a wiki page about that, or maybe a tmo thread Feb 04 11:43:08 <`Ika_Musume> humm Feb 04 11:43:13 <`Ika_Musume> link pls Feb 04 11:43:19 though not exactly what you call webcam usually Feb 04 11:43:42 'ello Feb 04 11:43:48 O hi Feb 04 11:43:49 <`Ika_Musume> well n82 had an app for it Feb 04 11:43:52 as in 'it's not a USB attachable peripheral' Feb 04 11:44:13 <`Ika_Musume> same for n82 it was bluetooth Feb 04 11:44:13 ...that will register to host as webcam Feb 04 11:45:34 you can stream video data over IP, via e.g gstreamer (note the name!), or probably also remote mount to some device on maemo /dev/video, or vlc, whatever Feb 04 11:46:00 <`Ika_Musume> k Feb 04 11:46:18 <`Ika_Musume> vlc for maemo? Feb 04 11:46:33 <`Ika_Musume> videolan right? Feb 04 11:47:01 hey how does one go about making these pro files portable? I use bits of Venemos notification thingamagig and the pri file for that looks like this: http://pastie.org/1527936 Feb 04 11:47:07 which is not portable Feb 04 11:48:42 Anyone had success with the USB networking wiki over linux? Feb 04 11:50:28 USB networking with linux yes Feb 04 11:50:52 RobbieThe1st: proprietary firmware is - a part of a periph subsystem. It's fine as long as the subsystem works as defined and "sold". If it doesn't, well then go for a better peripheral, or ask the manufacturer of that particular peripheral to fsckng fulfill the contract Feb 04 11:53:29 pyscho: Think you can help me out? Ive been trying to get it working for the past 3 and a half days. Ive had it working twice and left it alone, next day its stopped working completely. Feb 04 11:53:52 Running Arch on my laptop, was connecting with networkmanager as someone suggested to me on the arch channel Feb 04 11:54:33 thought maybe it was the n900, reflashed it over an hour ago and no change, ive tried restarting networkmanager on arch, ive tried reinstalling, deleted the old settings and reinstalling Feb 04 11:55:11 I've toyed around with getting USB networking to work with arch but had failed a few times. It works well under ubuntu however Feb 04 11:55:45 The only way I can get the laptop to connect over usb, is if I give usb0 a static ip via networkmanager, which works (sort of), but if I do that it kills the wifi connection on the laptop, no idea why. Feb 04 11:55:48 Oh, damn Feb 04 11:56:01 ahh that's easy Feb 04 11:56:34 I wouldnt really care as much, but ive been setting up this laptop since monday and im going to bali on tuesday, looking at the progress ive made, everytime I fix something, something else goes wrong Feb 04 11:56:37 it kills the connection is because of multiple default gw are defined, you just have to erase the one that sets up USB networking with n900 Feb 04 11:57:06 and yeah the usual USB networking wiki page recommends static IP anyway :) Feb 04 11:57:16 RobbieThe1st: you'd not bitch about opensourcing the controller code of your SATA HDD, even if it fails to support SATA3. You either flash a new firmware which comes as a blob from manuf, or you simply swap the HDD for a better one, on warranty Feb 04 11:59:35 * SpeedEvil reserves the right to bitch about _everything_. Feb 04 11:59:44 * SpeedEvil wants open-source microwave oven controllers. Feb 04 11:59:57 oh man Feb 04 12:00:00 look, quite frequently you'd not understand a single byte of the opened code anyway. Odds are it comes in assembler gibberish, for a processor you never heard about, and is accessing registers to do things you hafe no clue what they are Feb 04 12:00:03 Pyscho, you're my hero. Feb 04 12:00:52 azkay, that's an easy fix :) interesting how you got it working with networkmanager, I've been trying to get it to work with netcfg under arch but it fails Feb 04 12:01:54 I was originally using wicd for my wireless because it was the first thing I could get working, couldnt get network manager to work Feb 04 12:02:03 went through and uninstalled wicd Feb 04 12:02:30 then I yaourt networkmanager network-manager-applet gnome-keyring Feb 04 12:02:44 edited a few stuff in the rc.conf, I think that was pretty much it then Feb 04 12:02:51 I've always used netcfg for both wired and wireless.. but the thing doesn't work well with n900 via USB networking, kinda pissed me off but oh well Feb 04 12:03:51 I decided to finally stick with linux, for awhile anyway. Got this laptop for $300, had W7 on it for 2 days then convinced myself to try linux again, every previous time ive tried I got angry and got rid of it after the first day. Slowly getting somewhere. Feb 04 12:04:29 also, its an awesome laptop. Cant believe I found it for $300, bahaha. Feb 04 12:04:57 then again you're using arch, that could be a given why :) Feb 04 12:06:15 Every other time I used debian, person I was talking to was using arch, so I decided to try it out Feb 04 12:06:58 oh well, atleast ive learnt a few more things over the past few days and not broken anything more than usual Feb 04 12:07:59 Next on the todo list, get gstreamer to stream the camera over at decent quality Feb 04 12:08:26 all the examples ive seen posted end up looking pretty terrible Feb 04 12:14:35 join forces with `Ika_Musume Feb 04 12:15:10