**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 05 02:59:57 2011 Feb 05 04:58:51 it seems that N900 weren't sold at this side of the world Feb 05 04:59:00 because when I'm awake, you all are sleeping Feb 05 04:59:04 and you all are talking here, I'm sleeping Feb 05 04:59:05 this sucks Feb 05 04:59:15 Sc0rpius, Where are you? Feb 05 04:59:20 Venezuela Feb 05 04:59:44 Well, some of us up north are still awake. Feb 05 04:59:50 and it's 12:30 am here Feb 05 05:00:04 12:00 AM here. Feb 05 05:00:20 oh so you are in the east coast Feb 05 05:00:34 I didn't know there were any 1/2 hour from GMT timezones in the western hemisphere. Feb 05 05:00:44 yeah blame our stupid president Feb 05 05:00:46 Yes, Cambridge, MA, USA Feb 05 05:00:49 we were GMT-4 before Feb 05 05:01:06 and he woke up one day and said: "when kids get awake is still dark out there" Feb 05 05:01:13 and he moved half an hour Feb 05 05:01:30 My clock has a snooze button for that. Feb 05 05:01:59 and now at 5:00 pm is dark Feb 05 05:02:08 hahaha Feb 05 05:02:40 funny, but I guess kids can't be late for school Feb 05 05:02:54 anyway it didn't solve anything, now at 5:00 pm is dark Feb 05 05:02:56 When I was a kid, I lived in Iowa, and the farmers protested against the establishment of Daylight Savings Time because they thought the extra hour of sunlight would hurt their crops. Feb 05 05:03:09 haha Feb 05 05:03:13 unbelievable Feb 05 05:04:53 people are stupid like that. When the time was moved people thought the had to work half an hour more a day Feb 05 05:08:01 Sc0rpius, By the way, thanks for the subsidized home heating oil. Feb 05 05:08:19 so, I'm afraid of getting an N900 so close to the MWC Feb 05 05:08:25 should I be? Feb 05 05:09:02 Sazpaimon, Well, there's a chance the first Meego phone will be introduced around the time of MWC. Feb 05 05:09:29 indeed, but even then, the time between announcement and launch averages on like, 5 or 6 months Feb 05 05:09:34 8 or 9 if you're nokia Feb 05 05:10:00 Sazpaimon, Nokia *claims* they are trying to reduce the time between anouncement and availability. Feb 05 05:10:23 I though N900 was EOL already Feb 05 05:10:40 and only a few percentage of people in the planet, like us, are lucky to have one Feb 05 05:10:50 Sc0rpius, Well, you can still but new units on, for example, Amazon. Feb 05 05:11:41 n900 EOL wasn't announced yet i believe Feb 05 05:11:42 If Noikia drops Meego in favor of Android or WM7, I'll immediately buy another N900. Feb 05 05:12:05 they just kind of abandoned the platform Feb 05 05:12:34 That's the Nokia way. Feb 05 05:12:37 [00:09] Sazpaimon, Nokia *claims* they are trying to reduce the time between anouncement and availability. Feb 05 05:12:41 yeah, the N8 sure shows that! Feb 05 05:12:48 Nokia dropping Meego? now that would be stupid Feb 05 05:13:10 nokia would never drop meego because that would be financial suicide for them Feb 05 05:13:45 It might be good in the short term, but I agree it would be terrible in the long term. Feb 05 05:14:20 anyway, what's the concensus? should i snatch this N900 i can secure on ebay? or wait for MWC Feb 05 05:14:52 Sazpaimon, how much on ebay? Feb 05 05:14:58 $260 Feb 05 05:15:07 Sazpaimon, All I can say is the hardware is a little old fashion these days, but I'm very glad I have mine, and if I lost it I'd replace it with another N900. Feb 05 05:15:33 if the new one comes out in May and costs $550, will you be able to buy it at that price/time? Feb 05 05:15:34 You have to enjoy fiddling with the software, though. Feb 05 05:15:42 that's a good point Feb 05 05:15:51 only new nokia device i could afford was the E71 Feb 05 05:15:59 and at the time i didnt even know it just launched Feb 05 05:16:02 It's nowhere near as smooth an ownership experience as iPhone or even Android. Feb 05 05:16:08 i saw it at best buy, needed a phone, and snagged it Feb 05 05:16:11 E71 is a good phone Feb 05 05:16:20 Sc0rpius, i still have mine :) Feb 05 05:16:49 Sazpaimon, Are you familiar with linux, or interested in learning about it? Feb 05 05:16:58 Ken-Young, I run 3 linux dedicated servers Feb 05 05:17:12 Sazpaimon, Well, we'll check off that box then! Feb 05 05:17:13 i know if there's a program I need I can apt-get -b source it if it isn't in the repo Feb 05 05:17:26 Ken-Young, not from the start, but once you get it working exactly how you want, the interactions are rather streamlined (typical linux-y situation :) Feb 05 05:17:46 i'd prefer a portage system though, but compiling everyhthing on a phone is silly Feb 05 05:17:51 nobody does that Feb 05 05:18:11 unless you modify the software for a reason and anyway you don't compile it on the phone but somewhere else hehe Feb 05 05:18:24 well yeah there's that Feb 05 05:18:27 Sazpaimon, Yes, I compile my N900 code on my linux laptop. There's an SDK. Feb 05 05:18:32 i actually messed with the SDK a few times Feb 05 05:18:40 i ported gnash to the N900 Feb 05 05:18:51 it "works," but it's still gnash Feb 05 05:19:02 still, I wanted to see if I could get an open source flash player working Feb 05 05:19:20 gnash, by the way, has very poor flash 9 suppor Feb 05 05:19:20 t Feb 05 05:20:26 I just implemented tree view in my Modest Feb 05 05:20:35 johnx I agree. Feb 05 05:20:36 anyway, maemo isn't what's bothering me about the N900. It's the hardware Feb 05 05:20:40 with collapsable/expandable subfolders Feb 05 05:20:52 what's wrong with the hardware Feb 05 05:21:24 Sc0rpius, the fact that it will be obsoleted whenever the N9 or whatever comes out Feb 05 05:21:42 the CPU is still great, even by today's standards. A 500Mhz OMAP cpu blows the N8's ARM11 out of the water any day Feb 05 05:21:50 600 MHz Feb 05 05:22:01 the RAM is my biggest concern Feb 05 05:22:11 There are lots of reports about broken microUSB ports on the N900, but that's the only quality issue I'm aware of. Feb 05 05:22:20 yeah that's what you should worry: the USB port Feb 05 05:22:30 and maybe it's a little heavy Feb 05 05:22:39 and not having multitouch kinda sucks Feb 05 05:22:44 everything else is fine Feb 05 05:22:45 Sc0rpius, i own an E71, that's heavy Feb 05 05:22:52 esepcially for such a tiny tiny phone Feb 05 05:22:54 the N900 is heavier Feb 05 05:23:14 that's good, as long as it isn't bulky Feb 05 05:23:22 E71: 127 g, N900: 181g Feb 05 05:23:25 i like knowing what pocket my phone is in without patting myself down Feb 05 05:23:27 it IS bulky Feb 05 05:23:28 The RAM can be a bit restricting sometimes depending on the situation Feb 05 05:23:32 it feels like a brick Feb 05 05:23:33 some apps are just RAM hogs Feb 05 05:23:39 like an *awesome* brick Feb 05 05:23:40 I still love it though Feb 05 05:23:41 i kind of want to experiment with very high quality microsd cards as alternat swap space compared to the internal space Feb 05 05:23:47 it might perform faster Feb 05 05:23:49 it really is an "everything and the kitchen sink" phone Feb 05 05:23:51 it's way too powerful to even compare it with another phone Feb 05 05:23:54 it has to be compared with laptops Feb 05 05:24:32 i havent looked at any internal shots of the phone. Is the RAM stacked on top of the CPU (or vice versa) Feb 05 05:24:40 no clue Feb 05 05:24:44 but why would that be an issue Feb 05 05:25:00 same die I think Feb 05 05:25:05 if it is it means upgrading the ram chips is pretty much completely out of the question Feb 05 05:25:18 errrr, nah. it's stacked Package-on-Package or something Feb 05 05:25:20 battery life is what worries me, and I'm not sure if CSSU has someting to do with it 'cos I think it worsen it Feb 05 05:25:25 and flash updates Feb 05 05:25:26 heh Feb 05 05:25:45 johnx, eugh, i hate that Feb 05 05:26:05 yeah. no upgrades. :) Feb 05 05:26:15 i thought there might be a possibility of replacing the ram chip with something with the same schematic but with more space Feb 05 05:26:18 not gonna happen :/ Feb 05 05:26:32 256 MB is fine Feb 05 05:26:45 maybe my microsd as swap idea could work Feb 05 05:26:52 most people do that, I do it Feb 05 05:27:01 but not in the microsd Feb 05 05:27:12 in the internal flash memory Feb 05 05:27:16 32 GB Feb 05 05:27:19 i dont know the speed of the internal space, but i bet there are microsd cards that could be faster than it Feb 05 05:27:42 Sazpaimon, If you want to mess around with the chips, an Openmoko gt04 (new!) might be better for you. It's based on the Beagle Board. Feb 05 05:27:47 I think internal is faster than a class 10 microsd external, but that's just me Feb 05 05:27:58 Sc0rpius, class has nothing to do with random read/write speed Feb 05 05:28:16 unfortunately class 10 cards can have very poor random access speeds Feb 05 05:28:31 hmm Feb 05 05:28:31 microsoft is pushing for microsd cards with very high quality random access speeds for their phones Feb 05 05:28:53 nice Feb 05 05:29:15 because cards sold today can fry on a windows phone due to how windows phone handles external space (it treats it as additional space to the internal memory) Feb 05 05:30:03 the key is cards with good random access speeds, that's why microsoft is doing the "certified for windows phone" microsd cards. I figure cards with that certification might work well as swap space on an N900 Feb 05 05:30:55 i've done some research and found a few class 6 cards that users claim work great in their windows phones Feb 05 05:31:44 that's of course if I get an N900 Feb 05 05:41:34 Hey guys - Anyone here messed with Gimp on EasyDebian? Feb 05 05:41:42 Ken-Young: WHAT Feb 05 05:41:58 luke-jr, What are you asking about? Feb 05 05:42:03 OpenMoko new phone⁇ Feb 05 05:42:17 luke-jr, Not from the company. Feb 05 05:42:24 link! Feb 05 05:43:20 luke-jr, There's a community effort that will plae a respun version of the Beagle Board in an Openmoko gt02 case, and use the original Openmoko display hardware. Feb 05 05:43:38 I'll look for the link. Feb 05 05:45:05 ugh I missed out Feb 05 05:45:05 luke-jr, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04_revisions Feb 05 05:45:52 I should have been saying gta04, not gt04. Feb 05 05:46:56 luke-jr, It should be even more of a geek wet dream than the Freerunner was. Feb 05 06:03:00 Ken-Young, except Openmoko cases are ugly Feb 05 06:03:33 Sazpaimon, Hey - the whole thing's gonna be ugly. But it's extremely cool. Feb 05 06:03:58 acellermonet, compass, gyroscope, altimeter... Feb 05 06:04:01 I would rather see someone make a beagle board that fits in a more contemporary case Feb 05 06:04:09 you know, like the N900 Feb 05 06:04:50 Sazpaimon, If you care how it looks, you're not the target audience. Feb 05 06:05:01 indeed Feb 05 06:06:55 Try finding another phone with expansion cables for peripherals and data collection. Feb 05 06:07:02 And JTAG Feb 05 06:08:29 Try finding another phone that you can order today, even though the manufacturer hasn't figured out how much RAM it will end up having. Feb 05 06:13:42 heh. well it wasn't a phone, but the pandora was like that :) Feb 05 06:19:48 tell you what - it's a brilliant plan to get their gta02 out of the shelf, those otherwise would collect dust forever. And hey, a 5$ ugly plastic case plus 60$ display for just 260$, that's a real bargain Feb 05 06:20:44 I wonder how many they still have on the shelf. Feb 05 06:21:15 Goldelico prolly a dozen or two - "we" some thousands Feb 05 06:22:45 Well, I still use my Freerunner - it's a very nice GPS unit, IMHO. Feb 05 06:22:46 Actually though, I'm not sure the lack of knowing the RAM size is that huge an issue. AFAIU, on the OMAP3 different pin-compatible packages with different amounts of memory are available, so it's not something that need major rework to change the memory size (hope I'm not too far off ...) Feb 05 06:23:52 johnx, Well, I plan on buying one if they ever really go on sale. Feb 05 06:24:10 you would have to change xloader Feb 05 06:24:15 nolo xloader Feb 05 06:24:20 signed part Feb 05 06:24:24 I've got two gta02s and a gta01, so I might as well convert one. Feb 05 06:24:36 jacekowski, errr, but this isn't for the N900 ... Feb 05 06:24:55 as it's xloader that's setting up memory maps and stuff Feb 05 06:25:08 ahhh Feb 05 06:25:49 jacekowski, Sorry, I'm off-topic. Feb 05 06:30:36 Ken-Young: when I cnnect all my gta02 to a beowulf they are way faster than gta04 :-P Feb 05 06:31:06 DocScrutinizer, How many of them do you have, personally? Feb 05 06:31:35 last time I ztied to count them, It's been sth ~one dozen Feb 05 06:31:51 s/zt/tr/ Feb 05 06:31:51 DocScrutinizer meant: last time I tried to count them, It's been sth ~one dozen Feb 05 06:33:02 DocScrutinizer, I'm jealous - do you still use any of them? Feb 05 06:33:03 depends which pile of junk and wreck you count in or not :-P Feb 05 06:33:21 raaaaarely Feb 05 06:34:58 DocScrutinizer, Has anyone looked into trying to make an extremely secure software stack for the Freerunner - something with full volume encryption? Feb 05 06:35:19 some 2 or 3 are even 850/1800/1900 - quite useless here Feb 05 06:35:42 dunno Feb 05 06:36:05 Might be a viable niche product. Feb 05 06:38:36 I fail to see the usecase and target user group Feb 05 06:40:18 DocScrutinizer, Our marvelous department of Homeland Security has begun confiscating cell phone at the border. Feb 05 06:40:29 I guess the main usage will be for some openBB hackers for a long time still Feb 05 06:41:11 Ken-Young, and they'll tell you to hand over the keys or stand in contempt of court Feb 05 06:42:04 lol, those print-out-the-internet fools Feb 05 06:42:04 johnx, It's not clear - the courts have not ruled uniformly about whether or not you can be forced to reveal keys. Feb 05 06:42:45 Tell me how it works out for you then :) Feb 05 06:43:24 johnx, And in any event,, a truly secure phone would allow you to have a separate hidden volume. Feb 05 06:43:37 nobody can force you to reveal keys, as nobody can prove existence of data in a well done crypted virtual volume or stegano-file Feb 05 06:47:18 last time I checked, the cryptvolume solutions for linux did rather smart things like deleting with random bitnoise, and encoding both startpoint into volume and cypher key with the passphrase, so you can have arbitrary number of independent "volumes" in one physical volume, and nobody can tell if there's any data at all in it Feb 05 06:48:14 I assume it also has a way for you to prove the key for a 'clean' volume which may appear to be the entire volume? Feb 05 06:48:26 now embed this file into a (number of) .bmp file(s) and here you are Feb 05 06:48:37 johnx, Yes, you can do that. Feb 05 06:48:52 johnx: that's the idea Feb 05 06:50:27 but then they will torture or jail you until you give out the 2nd, 3rd, and 42nd passphrase, so it's better to hide the data completely, inside e.g .bmp Feb 05 06:50:42 see steganography Feb 05 06:51:09 hilariously, if you give out the keys for the data in the .bmp files as well, they may hold and torture you for keys you don't have :) Feb 05 06:51:21 double edged sword ;) Feb 05 06:51:35 protip: don't get detained Feb 05 06:51:41 that's the meaning in my first statement about 42nd passphrase Feb 05 06:51:57 ah, parsed that as 4th :) Feb 05 06:53:16 but the idiots they obviously are, they never will be able to even think about a set of family snapshots stored as .bmp or .png actually holds hidden info Feb 05 06:53:43 unless there's an episode of CSI like that ;) Feb 05 06:54:06 just don't publish the original unstegano'ed pictures on your facebook site :-P Feb 05 06:54:27 otherwise they could cmp and find "oops they differ" Feb 05 06:54:40 I take a lot of pictures of dirty white walls... Feb 05 06:55:15 Ken-Young, How fascinating. I take pictures of analog static on televisions :) Feb 05 06:56:53 NB a well embedded stegano info isn't detectable, but also is at least a bloat up of file size by factor 10, compared to netto hidden info Feb 05 07:00:02 well, you could get away with factor 4 even. like using the lower bits of 5/6/5 in a 8/8/8 bmp format Feb 05 07:00:11 johnx: you are not taking videos of that static? Feb 05 07:00:52 Doc: Sorry, but if it blows up the file size by x10, how is it undetectable? Feb 05 07:00:53 RST38h, just to mess with services that have to transcode video :) Feb 05 07:01:02 evil =) Feb 05 07:01:42 RST38h: the idea is to replace least significant bits of a real bmp with the split secret data Feb 05 07:02:08 so you're adding some rather unspectacular noise to an arbitrary picture Feb 05 07:02:55 Which is perfectly believable, these days Feb 05 07:03:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography Feb 05 07:03:49 Y'know, one thing you could easily do - take your data, compress/encrypt it, and name it to a .dll or .so. Most people wouldn't give it a second thought Feb 05 07:03:57 Provided it's in the right folder Feb 05 07:04:31 C:\My Documents\Bomb plans.dll Feb 05 07:05:02 Doc: Yes but if it is 10 times bigger than normal then somethign is wrong, isn't it? Feb 05 07:07:42 "Firefox 4.0 Beta 4 has been released for Android and Maemo - you can download it from this page. This release is the fastest performing Firefox 4 Beta for mobile yet. You will notice faster start-up, page load times and responsiveness to panning and zooming." Feb 05 07:07:52 Why don't I see any of these improvements? Feb 05 07:08:14 because 5% faster than slow is still slow Feb 05 07:08:24 NationStates... do I give more spending money to the Department of Defence or give in to the protesters outside my Parliament House that wish to "Disarm now!"? Feb 05 07:08:32 It actually feels slower than before Feb 05 07:08:37 Because of the checkered backround for areas that aren't rendered yet. Feb 05 07:08:59 Termana: I suggest you just buy more bear. Feb 05 07:09:08 s/bear/beer mhm Feb 05 07:09:19 RST38h, no no, I think you were right Feb 05 07:09:28 More bear, would protect the nation just fine Feb 05 07:09:34 derf: It takes 40+ seconds just to start up Feb 05 07:09:35 more bears are the answer to national self defense Feb 05 07:09:57 derf: and hangs for up to 5 seconds at a time when scrolling, checkered background or not Feb 05 07:10:23 I certainly don't remember that the last time I used a recentl build on an N900. Feb 05 07:10:27 *recent Feb 05 07:10:42 It takes like 3 or 4 second to start on Android. Feb 05 07:10:49 to be fair, microb gets to run in the background all the time Feb 05 07:10:51 *seconds Feb 05 07:11:00 johnx: Yea, but 40 seconds? Feb 05 07:11:17 johnx: And you pretty much cannot scroll in Firefox, with these hangups Feb 05 07:11:28 am playing with it now Feb 05 07:11:40 Takes 40+ seconds to load and render a web page too Feb 05 07:11:40 with just mediaplaye rrunning it seems to take about 10-20s to start Feb 05 07:11:45 RST38h: (if it is 10 times bigger than normal) you don't get it. The covertext is of course same size it's always been. It just holds hidden info (around 1..20%) in least significant bits, or other uninteresting parts so the original picture, music, whatever covertext LOOKS unaltered Feb 05 07:11:55 I have Messages, Phone, and XTerm running Feb 05 07:12:27 Doc: Ah ok Feb 05 07:13:00 Doc: So, x10 thing was in relation to the efficiency? I.e. you need Nx10 image to store text of size S? Feb 05 07:13:07 yep Feb 05 07:13:24 Maybe we should all switch to Android or something... Feb 05 07:14:14 RST38h, you first Feb 05 07:14:28 :p Feb 05 07:14:46 I'd switch to webos before android, honestly Feb 05 07:15:53 johnx: How about the latest crackberry devices? =) Feb 05 07:16:18 ugh. I'd easily switch to N800+dumbphone first Feb 05 07:17:08 or zaurus with console-only PIM+motorola startac (sp?) Feb 05 07:17:38 "...Furthermore, if papal organs were donated, they would become relics in other bodies if he were eventually made a saint." Feb 05 07:18:02 johnx: hell, where would you finda functioning zaurus? Feb 05 07:18:13 two on my desk :P Feb 05 07:18:24 RST38h, ebay Feb 05 07:19:08 I almost wish I picked up an extra last time I saw some in a store ... Feb 05 07:19:31 johnx: the one I have seen was pretty beaten =) Feb 05 07:19:48 mine are too :) Only real problems are battery related Feb 05 07:19:58 and lack of recent kernel in the case of the SL-5500 Feb 05 07:20:20 What do you guys think of the OQO? Besides it's bulkyness obviously Feb 05 07:20:37 It is a PC. Feb 05 07:20:40 I could see myself picking up one of those... and RUNNING MINIX Feb 05 07:20:42 :O Feb 05 07:20:45 :p Feb 05 07:20:50 Didn't they go bankrupt? Feb 05 07:21:05 johnx, sure, but you can still find some around, especially on ebay Feb 05 07:21:22 RST38h, If I wanted another one, I'd just stop by here; http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnxx/452167911/ Feb 05 07:21:26 Or, 11 on ebay at the moment to be precise Feb 05 07:22:25 johnx: Instant gadget orgasm. Feb 05 07:22:36 That was an awesome shop :) Feb 05 07:32:57 akihabara at night is so weird Feb 05 07:33:21 no cars, and gibberish signs painted on the road Feb 05 07:33:43 Ah, on sunday they used to close the street Feb 05 07:34:47 and yeah, I never did end up driving there ... so I still have no clue WTF some of the road signs mean Feb 05 07:40:27 * johnx sleeps Feb 05 08:30:08 MOO Feb 05 08:31:59 DocScrutinizer: heya Feb 05 08:53:36 hey all Feb 05 08:53:37 \o/ Feb 05 08:57:19 can anyone tell me if there is a way to flash n900 even if the "keep pressing u key while connecting the usb cable to the n900 and the computer" doesnt work? Feb 05 08:58:01 if "u" key doesnt not result in the small usb icon on the top right Feb 05 09:00:37 n900-space: you should press and hold :) Feb 05 09:00:51 untill it appears Feb 05 09:00:57 yes but its not working :( Feb 05 09:01:06 it never does, not for the last 3 days !! Feb 05 09:01:07 hmm, let me check Feb 05 09:01:40 it gives steady yellow light, a dim nokia screen shows up and nothing, it restarts after few seconds Feb 05 09:01:50 I wanna know onw thing Feb 05 09:02:32 the flasher document shows a "--usb-device" option, it says "Specify USB device to use (bus:device address)" Feb 05 09:02:33 brb Feb 05 09:03:54 so, you are holding "u" and plugging n900 in? Feb 05 09:04:22 cause that definitely works for me :) Feb 05 09:04:46 back Feb 05 09:04:57 yea i know Feb 05 09:05:00 it has always worked Feb 05 09:05:03 but not now Feb 05 09:05:03 its messed up Feb 05 09:05:14 i installed meego and things got messed up Feb 05 09:05:22 aah Feb 05 09:05:26 now half the things of maemo r flashed and half are not :$ Feb 05 09:05:42 and i'm sure its not the battery drain problem as well Feb 05 09:05:50 sorry, then you need smarter guy than me :( Feb 05 09:06:38 cuz when the device is off, and i press and hold power button, the bright white light comes up after which the whitescreen with nokia logo comes up Feb 05 09:06:46 seems like everyone is away Feb 05 09:09:08 sigh Feb 05 09:20:31 n900-space: can you please try to search the irc logs... your problem has been discussed before Feb 05 09:21:18 (just a pity that i don't really remember how it was solved, but all I remember is that it is possible to flash without the U key) Feb 05 09:21:38 ok cool Sicelo , i will search Feb 05 09:24:29 and if your device is really bricked, you may want to search for NOLO as well in the logs Feb 05 09:25:02 you will probably also find Jebba's work useful, http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba#Debrick_without_reflashing.21 Feb 05 09:44:43 meh, drive-by askers Feb 05 09:44:58 ~flatbatrecover Feb 05 09:44:59 Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover Feb 05 09:46:43 never try flashing if your battery isn't COMPLETELY charged. If battery gets too low to convince NOLO entering flashing mode (USB icon on holding 'u'), and your system (as in OS, maemo) is not correctly working to charge up the battery, you're cought in a deadlock Feb 05 09:49:14 only (end user) solution: get a freshly charged battery, by whatever means. Thi smight involve buying an external charger, buying a new battery, or charging the battery in a compatible Nokia phone (see http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/power/batteries/nokia-battery-bl-5j/compatibility) Feb 05 10:01:43 nota bene ~flatbatrecover DOES NOT work when device doesn't correctly boot up into maemo! Feb 05 10:13:22 Urgh, my brain Feb 05 10:13:40 alterego: more drugs? Feb 05 10:13:50 Or non compatible phone DocScrutinizer Feb 05 10:13:59 I charged it in an N810 Feb 05 10:14:15 RST38h: yeah, alcohol. Feb 05 10:14:57 alterego: might work, when you're not too lefthanded Feb 05 10:17:01 alterego: users running into flat bat deadlock probably aren't hardcore maemo addicts though, so it's not likely they got a "non-compatible" device that actually could be used to charge the BL-5J Feb 05 10:18:44 anyway, for completeness' sake: http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/power/batteries/nokia-battery-bp-4l/compatibility Feb 05 10:19:16 those are the good phones Feb 05 10:19:26 does nokia have a more powerful battery? Feb 05 10:19:30 * alterego wonders if his download rate is being killed by IO speed. Feb 05 10:20:34 pupnik: to replace bl-5j? nope Feb 05 10:21:57 whatever, seems neither n900-space nor Sicelo (for blaming him for broken link) are here, so never mind Feb 05 10:22:38 MohammadAG: ping Feb 05 10:23:29 when one of them re-joins, you might want to point them to http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-02-05.log.html#t2011-02-05T11:44:28 Feb 05 10:24:31 moo lardman|gone Feb 05 10:24:57 o/ Venemo Feb 05 10:25:19 hi DocScrutinizer :) Feb 05 10:25:34 moo wazd Feb 05 10:25:39 (in case you are alive) Feb 05 10:28:33 pupnik: buy a MUGEN battery Feb 05 10:29:37 i bought a 3g card for my thinkpad tablet Feb 05 10:29:46 now i need power :) Feb 05 10:30:58 MOAA POWAAA Feb 05 10:32:06 hey Feb 05 10:32:18 im getting a SIM error Feb 05 10:32:34 can someone have a look at my dmesg output? Feb 05 10:32:41 err, is this a sequel? Feb 05 10:34:08 a sequel as in happened before? Feb 05 10:34:11 then no Feb 05 10:34:12 http://paste.villavu.com/show/391 Feb 05 10:34:18 is the dmesg log Feb 05 10:34:19 DocScrutinizer: how come i don't see more people with modified battery packs for their laptops? from what i've read, you can hook up cells (same type) in parallel Feb 05 10:35:30 pupnik: you actually can. Make sure they are all charged to same level (I.E. full) prior to doing so Feb 05 10:35:43 pupnik: heavy Feb 05 10:35:48 achipa: ping Feb 05 10:35:53 and there are plugs everywhere these days Feb 05 10:36:00 sockets even Feb 05 10:36:03 and steampunk Feb 05 10:36:20 achipa: why are the links broken on http://www.forum.nokia.com/Devices/Maemo/Documentation/ ? Feb 05 10:36:30 steampunk everywhere? :) Feb 05 10:36:39 achipa: see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=936668#post936668 Feb 05 10:37:09 i wonder if you could build a portable laptop battery charger that was placed under the feet (desk, coffeetable) and pumped/driven by user Feb 05 10:37:12 mc_teo: sequel as in http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-02-03.log.html#t2011-02-03T14:30:30 Feb 05 10:37:53 however generating even 10w power with legs is noticeable work Feb 05 10:38:54 I read an article about piezo fabrics in New Scientist a while back iirc Feb 05 10:39:32 pupnik: SpeedEvil is planning a similar dynamo device Feb 05 10:39:45 DocScrutinizer: well i get like a big error, saying like all emergency calls are disabled, etc and a reboot might fix it Feb 05 10:39:55 10 reboots later, no joy Feb 05 10:40:10 umm, lemme check the pastie Feb 05 10:41:50 nothing in dmesg Feb 05 10:42:30 try removing your SIM and see if then emergency calls are enabled Feb 05 10:43:29 righto, brb Feb 05 10:55:41 DocScrutinizer: just tried that Feb 05 10:55:49 same error, even with SIM card out Feb 05 10:56:02 takes unusually long time to reboot too Feb 05 10:56:06 reflash cmt Feb 05 10:56:19 damn autobuilder Feb 05 10:56:53 i.e reflash :-D Feb 05 10:57:05 emmc too? Feb 05 10:57:09 nah Feb 05 10:57:23 and to pr1.3? Feb 05 10:57:53 yep, international version. US version is notorious to create issues with cmt Feb 05 10:58:26 i am from ireland Feb 05 10:58:29 i got it here Feb 05 10:58:37 hm, ok then :-D Feb 05 10:58:42 so it could be uk version? Feb 05 10:58:55 I'd use global version Feb 05 10:59:20 I'm in the UK and I always use global version .. Feb 05 10:59:21 and should i like back up all my stuff, like applications, etc, or would this replicate the error Feb 05 10:59:39 nobody ever found a difference not to mention a reason for UK / US / foo version Feb 05 10:59:41 You should always back stuff up. Feb 05 11:00:01 Is there even a UK pr1.3? Feb 05 11:00:12 I thought they stopped the UK variant .. Feb 05 11:00:18 i think so Feb 05 11:00:26 mc_teo: you should backup and restore, but test prior to restore Feb 05 11:00:33 i read something on it earlier Feb 05 11:00:38 alterego, \o Feb 05 11:00:39 okay Feb 05 11:00:59 * lcukx200 waits for autobuilder to know whether it worked Feb 05 11:01:04 would my /home/user/* be safe? Feb 05 11:01:08 Hey lcukx200 :) Feb 05 11:01:14 mc_teo: make a backup Feb 05 11:01:19 or should i move that to MyDocs? Feb 05 11:01:29 if a build on autobuilder FAILS Feb 05 11:01:30 its a lot of stuff Feb 05 11:01:34 can I up a new version with same number? Feb 05 11:01:39 I kinda like the one I am using Feb 05 11:02:07 lcukx200: I'd increment a packaging version number like: 1.0.0-1 Feb 05 11:02:08 /home/user isn't safe Feb 05 11:02:17 The 1.0.0-2 Feb 05 11:02:23 alterego, I always bump package version Feb 05 11:02:23 lcukx200: you can upload a fix with the same version, yes Feb 05 11:02:25 I am just seeing Feb 05 11:02:28 awesome Feb 05 11:02:39 lcukx200: but if it succeeded, then you must increment the version number Feb 05 11:02:39 ./mpackage Feb 05 11:02:44 yes of course Feb 05 11:02:47 published etc Feb 05 11:02:49 Nothing is ever safe :) Feb 05 11:03:48 mc_teo: it's not explicitly erased on flashing rootfs, but it's not 'safe' as in 'safe backup storage' Feb 05 11:05:22 mc_teo: creating a copy of complete /home/user (minus the MyDocs fs of course) is a good idea anyway Feb 05 11:07:01 mc_teo: if you want to do even more, you can use backupmenu "app" to create a full logical image of / and /home Feb 05 11:07:18 Always good to make regular backups, you never know what may happen. Feb 05 11:07:51 Flashing is one good reason, but so is using your phone, you may drop it in a puddle tomorrow etc .. Feb 05 11:08:02 heh, I got a cron job on my PC, to rsync Feb 05 11:08:24 (I hear of this all the time, people completely breaking their phones then bitching when Nokia Care wont retrieve their data.) Feb 05 11:08:41 DocScrutinizer: lazy :P Feb 05 11:08:45 pupnik: Planning a similar device may be a bit strong. Feb 05 11:08:46 sure Feb 05 11:08:48 :-P Feb 05 11:08:57 pupnik: I assume you're aware of car foot-pumps? Feb 05 11:09:13 now I have not tested this Feb 05 11:09:40 but if I push 2 interdependent packages to autobuilder without waiting for building will they both work Feb 05 11:09:45 nope SpeedEvil Feb 05 11:09:47 (assuming code has no bugs) Feb 05 11:09:51 what are those for Feb 05 11:10:04 pupnik: Say 40Kg*10cm = 40J. Once every second - going some - is 40W. Optimistically, you might get 30W out Feb 05 11:10:09 for inflatng tires Feb 05 11:10:13 ohhh ok Feb 05 11:10:28 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-25996-Double-Cylinder-Foot-Pump/dp/B0001K9RFI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296904200&sr=8-1 Feb 05 11:10:40 yeah but sitting at a desk means only a couple kg on each foot Feb 05 11:10:44 pupnik: Indeed Feb 05 11:10:49 maybe the pump could be placed under the butt of the user :) Feb 05 11:11:01 lol Feb 05 11:11:11 pupnik: Basically - 40W - sustained in any manner - is moderately hard work. Feb 05 11:11:26 pupnik: It has to involve large movements of big muscles. Feb 05 11:11:27 you bet Feb 05 11:11:29 i got my lappy down to about 10watts Feb 05 11:11:35 and that still seems a bit much Feb 05 11:11:55 but sometimes i 'sewing machine' my legs (bouncing them up and down) Feb 05 11:12:03 seems like usable energy Feb 05 11:12:08 pupnik: that's not quite what it seems. Feb 05 11:12:15 that's resonant yes Feb 05 11:12:18 pupnik: notice that when you're doing that, it's ... Feb 05 11:12:19 yeah Feb 05 11:12:30 so the power you might expect is divided by Q Feb 05 11:12:34 ty Feb 05 11:12:41 i didn't think Feb 05 11:13:06 The 'least bad' highish power output you can do is on a cycle. Feb 05 11:13:21 Hm... Anyone know stuff about RTMPdumping and grabbing flash video streams? Feb 05 11:13:23 But that's pretty much required to be quite large. Feb 05 11:13:28 RobbieThe1st: som Feb 05 11:13:29 e Feb 05 11:13:58 SpeedEvil: how about a flat device with two coasting pads for your feet, and you push them back and forth on the floor? Feb 05 11:14:12 RobbieThe1st: I use get_iplayer to grab BBC streams, and also rtmpproxy to grab flash streams when played by the browser. Feb 05 11:14:13 forward and backward, alternating Feb 05 11:14:34 pupnik: Not impossible, again. It's not going to be easy. Feb 05 11:14:52 pupnik: mechanically annoying too, as you pretty much need the base to be as large as the slide Feb 05 11:14:55 i kind of like that one Feb 05 11:15:02 yes Feb 05 11:15:02 Alright. I saw this little video on Wired, and decided to download it: http://www.uncontactedtribes.org/brazilfootage Feb 05 11:15:05 let's face it: 1 or 2W are easy, 10 and up real hard work Feb 05 11:15:15 I was hoping to make a footpump class device that folded up pretty much into a n900 shape and size. Feb 05 11:15:18 (though not weight) Feb 05 11:15:31 And that was able to charge a n900 in 100 steps or so. Feb 05 11:15:37 It's apparently using 'jwplayer', and has a config file of http://assets.uncontactedtribes.org/films/356/config.xml which links to http://assets.uncontactedtribes.org/films/356/streams.rss Feb 05 11:16:05 RobbieThe1st: I never worked out how to do this. Feb 05 11:16:18 RobbieThe1st: It seemed too hard, and rtmpproxy just worked Feb 05 11:16:23 Hm... Feb 05 11:16:45 Err Feb 05 11:16:49 I mean rtmpsuck Feb 05 11:16:54 With the iptables wrapper Feb 05 11:22:18 SpeedEvil: Hm, how do you use rtmpsuck again? Feb 05 11:22:25 I've got it, but I can't find any instructions Feb 05 11:22:42 iptables -t nat -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 1935 -m owner \! --uid-owner proxy \ Feb 05 11:22:43 -j REDIRECT Feb 05 11:22:43 ./rtmpsuck --debug Feb 05 11:23:08 Just run that as a command? Feb 05 11:23:12 With rtmpsuck setuid to 'proxy' Feb 05 11:23:29 you probably don't actually need the --debug Feb 05 11:23:35 * lcukx200 paces Feb 05 11:24:46 It's documented in the README in the rtmpdump source Feb 05 11:25:04 hrm Feb 05 11:26:11 at the bottom of the build log from autobuilder Feb 05 11:26:18 for diablo, it had: Feb 05 11:26:18 [2011-02-05 13:20:57] liqbook 0.1.0 has been queued for loading into diablo extras-devel repository Feb 05 11:26:26 but that line is missing from the fremantle one :S Feb 05 11:26:38 https://garage.maemo.org/builder/diablo/liqbook_0.1.0/summary.log Feb 05 11:26:43 https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/liqbook_0.1.0/summary.log Feb 05 11:26:59 could someone tell me the output of 'dpkg -l | grep libqt4' on an N810? Feb 05 11:27:28 RobbieThe1st: you possibly won't also have the right iptables modules fot that to work Feb 05 11:30:46 know of any stealth cameras that fit in a power socket? http://static.rp-online.de/layout/fotos/457x325/30210-strom_steckdose.jpg Feb 05 11:30:54 SpeedEvil: It actually -did- work. I'm absolutely amazed Feb 05 11:31:18 ~flashing Feb 05 11:31:19 rumour has it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Feb 05 11:32:13 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=68714 someone doing what I was talking about yesterday Feb 05 11:32:46 using OpenGL on-device for doing processing rather than graphics stuff Feb 05 11:32:47 very neat, lardman Feb 05 11:34:43 though having an OpenCL impl would be better Feb 05 11:35:01 RobbieThe1st: Great! Feb 05 11:35:29 RobbieThe1st: It would be awesome if it could also spit out what it understood of the negotiation, so you could point rtmpdump to it seperately Feb 05 11:35:57 RobbieThe1st: I want to do a rtmpproxy that transcodes to a lower bandwidth - but I don't have the energy. Feb 05 11:36:42 Why'd you want -lower- bandwidth? Feb 05 11:36:54 I mean, most internet streams are low enough already :\ Feb 05 11:37:11 RobbieThe1st: My connection sometimes goes down to 160K. Feb 05 11:37:40 At these times, I would like at least audio of some video streams, with maybe a bit of picture, even if I can't get good video. Feb 05 11:37:44 So you'd run the proxy on a remotely hosted machine? Feb 05 11:38:01 RobbieThe1st: yes. Feb 05 11:38:05 That does make sense Feb 05 11:38:45 Also good for mobile use of course. In many cases you don't actually need even 240p video, if you're watching video on the train. Feb 05 11:39:42 DocScrutinizer: i have nitdroid installed with multiboot, i presume this will erase it too? Feb 05 11:43:46 what is the good practice for packaging something both for fremantle and Feb 05 11:43:50 what is the good practice for packaging something both for fremantle and diablo? Feb 05 11:49:23 Jaaksi posted the first message from HP at his blog Feb 05 11:56:54 just finished flashing Feb 05 11:57:11 still taking a while to boot, therefore i am not too optimistic Feb 05 11:58:06 RST38h: it is the second one actually Feb 05 11:58:34 who has a USB 3G modem here? Feb 05 11:59:00 me Feb 05 11:59:06 Me Feb 05 11:59:20 i have it connected to a wireless router, though Feb 05 11:59:48 MohammadAG: does two N900s count? Feb 05 11:59:58 lol Feb 05 12:00:41 I tried the sim of one in the N900 and it connects to the internet without problems Feb 05 12:00:52 so why do people want h-e-n drivers for them? Feb 05 12:01:20 ive never had a problem Feb 05 12:01:36 if dont want to use laptop with 3g modem Feb 05 12:01:44 i just swap sims, and it works grand Feb 05 12:01:48 MohammadAG: Some providers lock the SIM. Feb 05 12:01:56 but why use a 3G modem on the N900? Feb 05 12:02:04 ah Feb 05 12:02:13 MohammadAG: Also, you can't recieve calls on the n900 if you do that. Feb 05 12:02:28 DocScrutinizer: well my SIM works after rebooting, thanks Feb 05 12:02:50 SpeedEvil, how come? Feb 05 12:02:53 lol, greeting by a nokia text Feb 05 12:03:06 MohammadAG: Because the new SIM hasn't got the same number. Feb 05 12:03:16 since your using 3g modems sim, MohammadAG, rather than regular Feb 05 12:03:19 MohammadAG: And in at least one of my SIMs cases, it's only data, no SMS or voice. Feb 05 12:03:29 Well - it will do inbound SMS Feb 05 12:03:41 so 3G modem sims differ? Feb 05 12:03:54 MohammadAG: no. Feb 05 12:04:03 MohammadAG: different mobile accounts differ. Feb 05 12:04:14 heh Feb 05 12:04:17 i wouldnt think they differ, just the mobile provider has them marked as data-only Feb 05 12:04:26 MohammadAG: They may not offer various services, or be extremely expensive for some, or be locked to one 'phone' Feb 05 12:04:30 one more question, do two 3G devices affect each other? Feb 05 12:04:39 and will charge tons if used for sms or calls Feb 05 12:04:42 MohammadAG: yes, but not much. Feb 05 12:04:50 I have the N900 and the modem close to each other and they're both connected to 3G Feb 05 12:05:24 MohammadAG: if they are right next to each other, and active, you may get some interference. Feb 05 12:05:28 In some modes Feb 05 12:06:00 having to flash my phone before breakfast, not the best start to the morning Feb 05 12:06:04 so MohammadAG, if I have a main SIM whose phone number everyone knows but I don't have a data plan on it and I have a 3G modem with a SIM which has a data plan but doesn't have a phone plan, then if I swap SIM cards, noone will be able to call me. Feb 05 12:06:31 Venemo, call diverting :P Feb 05 12:06:41 MohammadAG: call diverting also costs money. Feb 05 12:07:08 MohammadAG: My mobile data SIM does not actually support voice calls - at all. Feb 05 12:07:15 hmm, when did the n900 get sound effects? Feb 05 12:07:15 MohammadAG: so I can't even in principle redirect. Feb 05 12:07:22 mc_teo: ages ago Feb 05 12:07:31 mc_teo: it always had them Feb 05 12:07:35 pre pr1.2? Feb 05 12:07:50 mc_teo: The noise when you plug it in, the haptic noise, the explosion in a cymbal factory of battery run out. Feb 05 12:07:50 yes Feb 05 12:07:59 I think even in PR1.l0 Feb 05 12:08:02 1.0 Feb 05 12:08:03 "Enable system sounds" in Settings Feb 05 12:08:09 in profile settings Feb 05 12:08:24 since the phone exists it has that option Feb 05 12:08:27 i flashed pr1.2 and ota to pr1.3 when they first came out, and have never heard them Feb 05 12:08:38 perhaps i had them muted Feb 05 12:09:02 The N8 inhertied the battery low and battery empty sounds from the N900 Feb 05 12:09:32 though battery empty doesn't stutter on the N8 Feb 05 12:11:28 Heh Feb 05 12:24:20 MohammadAG: it doesn't stutter on my N900 either Feb 05 12:24:39 Venemo, it stutters on all N900's I've seen Feb 05 12:24:46 the multiple beeps at the end of it Feb 05 12:24:56 they're only 3, they seem like 9 or something on the N900 Feb 05 12:25:27 bbl Feb 05 12:26:08 hmm Feb 05 12:49:36 lol Feb 05 12:52:04 Venemo: thx for the note - will check with the webteam on monday Feb 05 12:52:58 achipa: thx Feb 05 13:20:24 damn Feb 05 13:20:31 not the same error Feb 05 13:20:56 but the sim keeps... i dont know how to describe it Feb 05 13:21:07 its like it logouts every so often Feb 05 13:21:25 ive had trouble before with this sim card Feb 05 13:21:40 my old phone was a sony ericsson w810i Feb 05 13:22:05 which had a sim holder, where you needed to slide it out Feb 05 13:22:22 it seemed a guarenteed way to break the sim card Feb 05 13:22:29 so perhaps i damaged it there Feb 05 13:24:52 I had a problem where I got the crossed out sim icon Feb 05 13:25:23 I'm experiencing (very) distorted phone calls. I'm running kernel-power (not overclocked). I RMA'd my phone a while ago because of this, but it wasn't fixed when it came back (although they told me they "replaced some parts"). It seems that the distortion happens almost always while connected to a 3G network and frequently while connected to a 2G network. Even the ringing itself when calling someone is distorted and the person I'm calling with is hearing me Feb 05 13:25:24 (very) distorted as well. Could someone help me with this? Or should I RMA the phone again :( ? Feb 05 13:25:34 and also notification about all telephony disabled Feb 05 13:26:51 hello, is it possible to merge conversations from a backup ? Feb 05 13:32:53 http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-spartacus-live-on-al-jazeera/ Feb 05 13:32:55 frits_: The mic is distorted, or the speakers? Feb 05 13:36:29 ShadowJK: yes? did you resolve it? Feb 05 13:38:25 if so how/ Feb 05 13:38:26 ? Feb 05 13:39:07 no I tried with several different sim cards Feb 05 13:39:12 same thing Feb 05 13:39:21 so I sent it to nokia for repairä Feb 05 13:39:34 still waiting on it to come back Feb 05 13:43:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MBWTqfCFd0&feature=related - neat. Code deobfuscation by optimisation. Feb 05 13:44:08 Basically, automatically eliminate dead paths. Feb 05 14:03:23 is there any way to stream N900 camera video to interweb Feb 05 14:03:32 to multiple people Feb 05 14:04:49 It'd be lovely if flash knew how to work the camera. Feb 05 14:05:38 I assume you mean some nice way, not a hack involving mencoder, and netpipes? Feb 05 14:07:01 SpeedEvil: I'm sorry, I didn't read your respons (timed out). Both are distorted Feb 05 14:07:24 SpeedEvil: Though I'd check the logs if someone replied and saw you did :) Feb 05 14:07:47 frits_: Does recording auio, or playing back audio suffer from the same distortion? Feb 05 14:08:00 SpeedEvil: No, only phone calls Feb 05 14:08:11 have you tried recording audio? Feb 05 14:08:48 http://maemo.org/packages/view/recaller/ Feb 05 14:09:08 Not yet, I'll try Feb 05 14:09:43 The distortion seems random, sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't. Also, sometimes both me and the other person are distorted and the other time just one of us Feb 05 14:09:52 hmm Feb 05 14:10:01 Odd. Feb 05 14:10:15 I'm really thinking it is some HW problem, but I hate to RMA it again for obvious reasons Feb 05 14:10:46 I'd try seeing if same issue hits with SIP. Does it happen often? Feb 05 14:10:54 ~rma Feb 05 14:10:55 rma is, like, Return Materials Authorisation, or the process you go through when you want to return a dead part to a manufacturer in exchange for a new one Feb 05 14:11:37 SIP? You mean stuff like Skype etc? If so, I'm not subscribed to any of those services :-/ Feb 05 14:12:23 It happens almost alwasy while connected to a 3G network and less frequently while connected to a 2G network (although still often) Feb 05 14:13:51 frits_: skype doesn't use SIP Feb 05 14:14:02 frits_: skype has a propriatary protocol of it's own Feb 05 14:15:02 ~sip Feb 05 14:15:03 sip is probably Session Initiation Protocol, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/sip/ (see RFC 3261) It's HIP to be SIP! Feb 05 14:15:30 BCMM: don't know what SIP mean to be honest, I only make 'regular phone calls? Feb 05 14:15:34 *means Feb 05 14:16:57 To me it looks like something goes wrong decoding/encoding the phone signal when calling, but I ain't no expert on that Feb 05 14:25:57 I got to go now. I'll install recaller and see what it records when calling. I hope I'll get wiser on this issue and if not, I guess I'll have to say goodbey to my phone for a while again. Anyway, thank you for your help Feb 05 15:44:43 javispedro: moinmoin Feb 05 15:45:22 morning Feb 05 15:48:44 mourning javispedro Feb 05 15:49:05 seen a blog post by Ari Jaaksi about how happy he is at HP? Feb 05 15:49:10 oh Feb 05 15:49:20 * javispedro googles Feb 05 15:50:38 heh, yet another os poll =) Feb 05 15:51:30 * GAN900 facepalms. Feb 05 15:51:39 This is gonna be a long Saturday. Feb 05 15:51:59 GAN: Something wrong? Feb 05 15:52:13 not for me, I'd _wish_ it was a long Saturday ;) Feb 05 15:52:32 Well, my Saturday is almost over, so a bit late for wishing Feb 05 15:53:13 * javispedro laughs slightly at the ari's blog trolls https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=16130344&postID=6981172879459598430 Feb 05 15:54:05 some sad shit is being pointlessly unhappy, indeed. Feb 05 15:56:03 * javispedro now finds a proper use for the lenovo: wall mount it. Feb 05 15:56:15 RST38h, cosmos are out of alignment again Feb 05 15:56:21 javispedro: on the inside of a restroom door. Feb 05 15:58:00 GAN: the usual then Feb 05 15:58:13 meh Feb 05 15:58:50 who is Ari Jaaksi? Feb 05 15:58:52 RST38h: running windows media center, on a restroom. brilliant!! Feb 05 15:59:30 DocScrutinizer, really? Feb 05 15:59:40 nah Feb 05 15:59:44 javis: the lenovo can do windows media center? hmmm Feb 05 16:00:20 just another Nokia victim Feb 05 16:00:54 DocScrutinizer: i've seen meego posters at fosdem Feb 05 16:01:29 ... Feb 05 16:01:37 RST38h: it can if you can stand the choppy framerates Feb 05 16:01:40 * DocScrutinizer waiting for the point Feb 05 16:01:51 for some reason 720p videos play better than the UI. Feb 05 16:02:21 javispedro: hw gfx accel? Feb 05 16:02:34 nope, the card only does mpeg2 Feb 05 16:02:41 umm Feb 05 16:02:50 I guess it's because the UI is written in .NET =) Feb 05 16:03:10 LOL Feb 05 16:04:20 DocScrutinizer: no maemo posters Feb 05 16:04:31 DocScrutinizer: == more people care about meego Feb 05 16:04:32 taadaaaa Feb 05 16:04:59 it's just we don't care about people :-P Feb 05 16:07:02 * DocScrutinizer is a late adopter by nature - so doesn't give a flying F about random hype for future developments Feb 05 16:08:41 I happily stay with desktop linux version of 2008, until some shit *forces* me to upgrade, which is always a PITA day (err week, month) in my life Feb 05 16:09:42 I got 2 N900, one's running PR1.1 with PK47, the other happily works on PR1.2 as my daily phone Feb 05 16:09:54 PK47? Feb 05 16:10:10 powerkernel with uBoot, v47 Feb 05 16:10:13 iirc Feb 05 16:12:45 I'm NOT eager to get a working meego version eventually, finally. Probably final meego sucks same way the very first mickey mouse webpages sucked Feb 05 16:13:23 ever the optimist :) Feb 05 16:13:30 and all I hear of facts reported about meego UI seems to support that notion Feb 05 16:14:31 Hey, don't put down the upcoming meego ui Feb 05 16:14:41 s/very first micke mouse/ very first mickey-mousey meego/ Feb 05 16:14:47 I am sure the best UX engineers from Nokia are designing it as we speak Feb 05 16:15:35 I bet the dresscode in this workgroup is similar to that of disneyland :-P Feb 05 16:16:03 alterego: you lied to me :P Feb 05 16:16:40 alterego: ui->graphicsView->setViewport(new QGLWidget()); makes it actually slower. Feb 05 16:16:45 Isnt someone trying to forward port the Maemo 5 window management to Meego? Feb 05 16:16:47 Doc:I am sure you mean it in a good, well-natured way! Feb 05 16:17:00 suuuure Feb 05 16:17:02 * RST38h is being positive tonight Feb 05 16:17:11 johnx: if you mean hildon-desktop, then yes, smoku and I are Feb 05 16:17:29 RST38h: I am well aware Nokia needs to address the *young* audience Feb 05 16:17:44 alterego: and I'm not sure if this entire QGraphicsView thing made it any faster at all. Feb 05 16:17:46 those that never in their life seen a decent desktop Feb 05 16:18:03 Venemo, ah, keen. A lot of us might be relying on that depending on that :) Feb 05 16:18:06 Doc: Of course! Feb 05 16:18:36 johnx: 'that' being what? Feb 05 16:18:38 I'm growing gray and grumpy, and am happy with diablo hildon Feb 05 16:18:50 the forwared-ported hildon-desktop Feb 05 16:19:09 okay johnx :) Feb 05 16:19:11 in case the 'native' Meego UI ends up being a regression Feb 05 16:19:35 johnx: yo da man!! Feb 05 16:20:06 johnx: You will need gtk+ libs then, too Feb 05 16:20:35 errr, s/depending/wishing you the best and relying on your work/g Feb 05 16:20:39 don't get the wrong idea :) Feb 05 16:21:00 also: good morning Feb 05 16:21:48 meego UI *is* a regression by definition Feb 05 16:21:53 I heard... Feb 05 16:22:07 hehe Feb 05 16:22:21 simplified to FUBAR Feb 05 16:22:41 aka Mickey Mouse!!! Feb 05 16:23:18 So, could you give a URL of the definition? Feb 05 16:23:28 and honestly, this goes together well with parts of the core OS systems I looked at Feb 05 16:24:49 RST38h: this definition is kept in a vitrine at home of one of the 4 attendants of that legendary pub meeting Feb 05 16:24:53 DocScrutinizer: which systems? Feb 05 16:25:09 it's the paper towel they scribbled meego foundation on Feb 05 16:25:23 Venemo: e.g sensorfw Feb 05 16:27:38 s/vitrine/glass showcase/ Feb 05 16:28:19 okay, I don't get this. Feb 05 16:28:29 why is my app slower with hw acceleration enabled than without it? Feb 05 16:28:44 hahaha Feb 05 16:29:01 glamo effect? Feb 05 16:29:06 DocScrutinizer: glamo? Feb 05 16:29:12 ~glamo Feb 05 16:29:12 somebody said glamo was http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alists.openmoko.org+glamo+raster, or http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/gta03/2009-April/000114.html Feb 05 16:29:48 (a very poorly built and poorly integrated gfx chip of OM Freerunner) Feb 05 16:30:30 overhead to operate the sparse incomplete gfx accel was higher than doing same cmpletely in sw Feb 05 16:31:27 :D Feb 05 16:31:40 well I can tell that it is indeed hw accelerated as the CPU usage is 0 Feb 05 16:32:01 i.e. there's no use in doing one operation on the gfx card, if for the next operation on same dataset you need to transfer everything back to main menory Feb 05 16:32:02 Well that's good in the long run anyways Feb 05 16:32:05 however the puzzle pieces' movement became a lot slower and clumsy :( Feb 05 16:33:07 sounds exactly like glamo effect Feb 05 16:33:22 DocScrutinizer: yeah, but lots of more advanced apps than mine can run ot it smoothly Feb 05 16:33:28 DocScrutinizer: so the problem must be with my app Feb 05 16:33:48 maybe with your type of gfx operations Feb 05 16:34:14 DocScrutinizer: my type of gfx operations is ui->graphicsView->setViewport(new QGLWidget()); :P Feb 05 16:34:59 moving around in memory huge chunks of graphic data tends to slow down everything, while it *looks like* nothing really got any load. DMA for example doesn't actually show up in CPU load Feb 05 16:35:43 and I have NFC what's actual overhead to setup GL Feb 05 16:35:43 I was about to say it sounds a bit like it could be something like texture swapping, but I didn't want to lead you down the wrong path Feb 05 16:35:57 DocScrutinizer: okkay. but then why can more advanced apps, eg 3D games, run on it well, while my 2D thingy with a bunch of pixmap doesn't? Feb 05 16:36:16 too many pixmaps to fit in graphics memory? Feb 05 16:36:30 johnx: I don't think so. Feb 05 16:36:39 3D maybe is doing more GL in a 'non-interruptable' way? Feb 05 16:37:16 too simple GL operations that do too many callbacks to CPU too frequently? Feb 05 16:37:36 DocScrutinizer, he was saying CPU usage was sitting around 0 Feb 05 16:37:51 I know Feb 05 16:38:04 Uhm, this is totally out of left field ... but is the SGX's clock attached to the CPU clock in any way? Feb 05 16:38:15 quite possible CPU gets blocked waiting for GL to finish :-P Feb 05 16:38:19 DocScrutinizer: I've got no idea how QGL* works. Feb 05 16:38:34 * DocScrutinizer neither Feb 05 16:38:52 DocScrutinizer: it worked well with some simple 3D demos I tried Feb 05 16:39:01 you probably want to talk to rasterman about it Feb 05 16:40:00 alas he got kicked in this chan several times, so won't come back anymore. You need to find him somewhere else Feb 05 16:40:17 DocScrutinizer, this channel? Feb 05 16:40:22 yep Feb 05 16:40:56 Hum, when, by whom and for what? Feb 05 16:41:19 DocScrutinizer: I can /query him anyway. but who is he? Feb 05 16:41:50 long ago, by crashanddie, one time for writing so fast it looked like pasting, another time for using u instead of you Feb 05 16:41:59 DocScrutinizer: anyway, the first thing I would blame is the lots of fp calculations that the QGraphicsView fw do Feb 05 16:44:02 Venemo: ~raterman Feb 05 16:44:06 Venemo: ~rasterman Feb 05 16:44:18 ~rasterman Feb 05 16:44:19 i guess rasterman is the guy that broke the mold with window managers and did stuff that people thought impossible. Feb 05 16:44:43 and he's familiar with QGL*? Feb 05 16:44:52 ~seen raster Feb 05 16:44:53 raster was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 5d 7h 14m 21s ago, saying: 'jonwil: the channel disapproves of you :)'. Feb 05 16:45:18 ~seen rasterman Feb 05 16:45:19 i haven't seen 'rasterman', Venemo Feb 05 16:45:33 DocScrutinizer: there is a person with that nick online right now Feb 05 16:46:09 http://www.rasterman.com/index.php?page=Me Feb 05 16:46:36 DocScrutinizer: it doesn't say too much. Feb 05 16:50:08 http://www.rasterman.com/index.php?page=Main Feb 05 16:50:10 meh Feb 05 16:50:21 ex OM colleague Feb 05 16:50:23 DocScrutinizer: in the news section, there's interesting stuff Feb 05 16:51:43 DocScrutinizer: search for 'Image Blend Occlude', 'Image Data ARGB', and 'Image Data ARGB Alpha' Feb 05 16:52:11 Venemo: when I suggest you might want to talk to rater, then you can trust in that suggestion ;-D Feb 05 16:52:45 raster* darn Feb 05 16:53:35 but what he might convince you is that there's an insanely fast way to do it in software ;) Feb 05 16:53:57 Nah, raster is all for OpenGL nowadays :) Feb 05 16:54:10 that's a bit of a change Feb 05 16:54:46 probably just said "fuck it all" at some point and joined "the revolution" Feb 05 16:54:56 DocScrutinizer, johnx: after seeing those benchmarks, I now know what the problem was. Feb 05 16:55:20 I knew I'll need to sanitize my code in some time... just didn't expect it to be this soon :P Feb 05 16:55:34 better sooner than later :) Feb 05 16:56:25 (though I always avoid fixing my own hacks ...) Feb 05 16:56:37 thing is, sadly what I was doing fell into the categories with negative changes in FPS. but I can fix that. Feb 05 16:56:48 Venemo: fullscreen? Feb 05 16:58:05 not to mention that yes, you're very probably doing 2d on software faster than the sgx, unless you're talking bout rotation&zooming of many things Feb 05 16:58:44 many things that don't change per frame ;) Feb 05 16:58:52 javispedro: the puzzle pieces were large pixmaps whose area composed of a small actual image and the rest of them were transparent Feb 05 16:59:12 Venemo: Still, you have to load that pixmap into PVR Feb 05 16:59:14 takes time Feb 05 16:59:19 javispedro: now that I removed the transparent parts, performance is acceptable Feb 05 16:59:30 "how did you do that"? Feb 05 16:59:34 javispedro: plus, the pixmaps are smaller Feb 05 16:59:50 javispedro: as I said, by making insane code saner. Feb 05 17:00:10 you probably changed from 32bpp textures to 16bpp Feb 05 17:00:24 thereby nearly halfing the bandwidth. Feb 05 17:00:50 my suggestion is that if you're interested in the alpha textures experiment with the pvr format Feb 05 17:01:29 meh, what I said. too simple for GL Feb 05 17:01:59 too much overhead Feb 05 17:02:05 javispedro: no, nothing like that Feb 05 17:02:29 the good thing is that you can mostly estimate the overhead as constant Feb 05 17:02:38 Doc: Mostly because PVR does not allow you to have textures in memory, you have to load them Feb 05 17:02:45 javispedro: as I said, the pixmaps were large, with most parts simply transparent. now they are small with no transparent parts. Feb 05 17:02:47 And loading textures is slowwwww Feb 05 17:02:52 yup Feb 05 17:02:57 Venemo: ah, well. Feb 05 17:03:28 Which works pretty well with the MIDP 3D APIs but fails for everything else Feb 05 17:03:29 huh. my guess of texture swapping was actually close :) Feb 05 17:04:08 tmo: "Has NITDROID project been aborted ?????? " (clearly, all of their developers have been killed, the money reassigned somewhere and their x-files shredded) Feb 05 17:04:27 Of cause it has been killed! Feb 05 17:04:37 hoooooray! Feb 05 17:04:47 Now, let us all have a funeral service right in that thread! Feb 05 17:05:06 with champagne and shit Feb 05 17:05:12 rrright Feb 05 17:05:42 RST38h: supposedly, you were being positive tonight ;) Feb 05 17:06:04 but wait, that means tmo... brrrrrr, not in the right mood for that now Feb 05 17:06:10 javispedro: Am I not suggesting a festive celebration of sorts? =) Feb 05 17:06:18 heh, touché. Feb 05 17:06:27 It'd be more Irish wake style :) Feb 05 17:06:50 Sure, we'd drink and get in fights, but it's because we loved the idea of android on N900 ... Feb 05 17:11:47 johnx, do we? Feb 05 17:13:39 GAN900, sarcasm was happening there Feb 05 17:13:50 I think my IRC client stripped the sarcasm tag ... Feb 05 17:14:00 evil non-standard irc clients Feb 05 17:14:22 http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/jan/20/rise-of-the-sarcmark Feb 05 17:14:43 :D Feb 05 17:14:52 In my case I should just mark things that aren't meant sarcastically ... Feb 05 17:15:12 or include the sarcmark in my sig and negate it later if I need to Feb 05 17:15:23 http://www.warmplace.ru/soft/sunvox/ synth/tracker for iphone/palm/linux/windows Feb 05 17:15:30 try it with preenv Feb 05 17:15:41 palm as in palmos, not webos Feb 05 17:15:42 =) Feb 05 17:16:03 johnx, ah, right. Feb 05 17:16:04 so, try it with garnetvm Feb 05 17:16:09 pupnik^^ Feb 05 17:16:19 oh oops Feb 05 17:18:36 it will probably work on the n8x0 Feb 05 17:20:26 meh, no sarcmark here, or do I simply miss the unicode point? Feb 05 17:20:38 but I got ¡ Feb 05 17:21:16 johnx: not sarcasm obviously is !¡ then ;-) Feb 05 17:21:59 or a 0 length exclamatory sentence in Spanish :D Feb 05 17:22:28 nah, that'd be ¡! Feb 05 17:23:38 true, true. unless it was backwards day Feb 05 17:35:47 anyway, infobot needs a new definition of factoid sarcasm¡ Feb 05 17:37:31 :) Feb 05 17:41:07 considering how useless other phones are, 250 eu isn't bad for a used N900 Feb 05 17:42:13 250 is about the average price for it, although you can get one for less Feb 05 17:42:22 used to cost more not too many months ago Feb 05 17:42:45 so. what will Nokia announce Friday? Merger with BlackBerry? Partnership with HP to use WebOS? what else can they do to save themselves? Waving a new handset and showing how cool it is wont cut it Feb 05 17:43:57 how about saying 'screw the US market' Feb 05 17:44:06 They'll announce chx as head of marketing :) Feb 05 17:44:12 LOL Feb 05 17:44:37 chx: Nice shiny completely open handset with a partially working OS, sold at cost to devs. Feb 05 17:44:41 pupnik_: that's another strategy. relegate themselves to the mid-to-low end , curb R&D costs and leverage the huge selling network. sure. Feb 05 17:44:46 SpeedEvil: haha Feb 05 17:44:57 it's not a low-end strategy. the USA is the low end. Feb 05 17:45:45 * RST38h sees strategists discussing the strategy@ Feb 05 17:45:46 ! Feb 05 17:46:02 heheh Feb 05 17:47:12 "I gots a shineyyy smartfoone and it onlyee costed me a hunnred dollars!" (Says the USian locked-down and enslave by contract) Feb 05 17:47:22 +d Feb 05 17:47:39 who cares what the sheep say? Feb 05 17:48:33 RST38h, the sheep whisperer? Feb 05 17:48:58 johnx: possibly, but what do I know of these... Feb 05 17:49:29 I think I'm supposed to make some joke about RST38h and sheep now :) Feb 05 17:49:58 pupnik_, Just so you know, in a lot of cases you don't actually end up with a cheaper plan even if you bring your own phone Feb 05 17:50:26 johnx: also true Feb 05 17:50:37 so, you are fucked either way Feb 05 17:50:55 Hence the sheep. Feb 05 17:50:56 and switching carriers here pretty much means getting a new phone, so a lot of people don't really see a 2-year subsidized deal as all that bad Feb 05 17:51:19 RST38h, but the Canadians are screwed even worse Feb 05 17:51:38 not any more Feb 05 17:51:44 we are now fairly free Feb 05 17:52:11 derf: Just because you understand you are among the sheep,does not give you a ticket out of the farm =) Feb 05 17:52:16 ah, did someone do something with the 1700/2100 spectrum? Feb 05 17:52:28 with Bell/Telus implements a standard HSDPA network (dudee what) second Mobilicty and Wind builds AWS networks Feb 05 17:52:54 johnx: http://mobilicity.ca/ and http://www.windmobile.ca/ Feb 05 17:53:16 so you can switch companies, but do you actually get better monthly rates by bringing your own phone? Feb 05 17:53:26 johnx: but, now, really Bell / Telus too in case you do not barf out in the store just to deal with them Feb 05 17:53:33 johnx: yes Feb 05 17:53:58 johnx: i am running my N900 on Wind and they charged me, i think 10 dollars for the SIM, i pay after and have no contract. Blis. Feb 05 17:54:35 what are traffic costs? Feb 05 17:54:38 yeah, no contract, but I mean are the *monthly* rates lower than if you'd gotten a phone on contract? Feb 05 17:54:57 johnx: there are no contracts. you can't sign one Feb 05 17:55:09 ah. interesting Feb 05 17:55:29 Meanwhile: Nokia reportedly planning 'organizational changes,' mobile phones exec on the outs Feb 05 17:55:39 johnx: similar to here I guess Feb 05 17:55:51 johnx: http://www2.windmobile.ca/en/Pages/WINDtab.aspx this is the version of "subsized" Wind-style Feb 05 17:55:52 johnx: $5 for the SIM and the money goes to your account. Feb 05 17:56:21 johnx: And then you just fill it up using any cell phone shop or a machine at the street or an ATM Feb 05 17:56:24 chx, that's fairly recent, isn't it? Feb 05 17:56:27 it is Feb 05 17:56:51 the only gotcha with Wind is that the mobile data have a limited (but not terribly limited) amount of ports. You need a laptop plan (you can't combine that with a voice plan) to have all ports Feb 05 17:57:28 the paper stated that Mary T. McDowell, a bigwig in the mobile phones unit, as well as Niklas Savander, the manager of the markets unit, could be on the outs. Moreover, Kai Oistamo (Chief Development Officer) and Tero Ojanpera, the manager responsible for services and mobile solutions, may also be enjoying their final weekends as Nokia employees. Feb 05 17:57:35 johnx: http://www2.windmobile.ca/WIND%20Docs/Fair-Usage-Policy.pdf this is the fair use policy for the unlimited plans. it's not unreasonable. Feb 05 17:58:01 * RST38h wonders if this will be the only MWC announcement from Nokia =) Feb 05 17:58:08 and it looks like your ISPs didn't get away with that law they were trying to put through about billing per GB. Feb 05 17:58:32 no, they didnt Feb 05 17:58:35 johnx: I am billed per GB. Nothing wrong with that. Feb 05 17:58:36 you cant imagine the outrage Feb 05 17:58:51 johnx: Still paying twice less than I would in the US, at much higher speeds Feb 05 17:59:49 RST38h, Let me find the chart of bandwidth costs in Canada. It would have ended up quite expensive for them if the law had gone through ;) Feb 05 18:00:01 $2 per gigabyte Feb 05 18:00:03 it was not pretty Feb 05 18:00:21 johnx: Cryptosocialists. They cross the border and walk among us unnoticed. (C)Michael Moore Feb 05 18:00:41 that IS unreasonable Feb 05 18:00:54 5 GB/mo is nothing Feb 05 18:01:46 Bashing the Canadians are "socialists" by a nutjub like Michael Moore.... Feb 05 18:01:48 erm... Feb 05 18:02:00 I did live in a socialist country Feb 05 18:02:04 chx: No, only the second sentence is attributed to him Feb 05 18:02:20 and now, I do live in Canada Feb 05 18:02:21 chx: And even that was made *before* he became the dork on a mission he is right now Feb 05 18:02:24 RST38h, part of the problem is that the ISPs were into the content&telephony game as well, so there was a huge conflict of interest Feb 05 18:02:50 If anyone calls Canada a socialist country they do not have the shortest idea of what socialism is Feb 05 18:03:07 johnx: Eh.. Not like you would need a conflict of interest to charge higher rates, as long as customers pay them Feb 05 18:03:25 just fyi, giving the poor health care is not socialism. It's called "humanity" :P Feb 05 18:03:38 chx: Notice the Crypto- prefix Feb 05 18:03:46 It should have rung a bell or two... Feb 05 18:03:48 even Crypto- is a faaaaar overshot Feb 05 18:04:06 i find it... hilarious? sad? when people from the first world throw that world around Feb 05 18:04:11 RST38h, the thought being that they'd ramp up the bandwidth cost to push people away from streaming movies from a 3rd party, then offer their own overpriced movie-streaming plan that was bandwidth exempt Feb 05 18:04:13 try to live in one first, dude. Feb 05 18:04:42 * GAN900 chuckles. Feb 05 18:04:54 chx <-- suddenly detonated Feb 05 18:05:14 johnx: Torrent it is. Feb 05 18:05:48 johnx: And lawyers fighting over a service that only a few people are interested in, they are hilarious Feb 05 18:06:00 RST38h, uhm, see the part about insanely high per GB bandwidth costs + throttling Feb 05 18:06:05 yeah that was the plan up until the point when people have flooded Mr. Clement's office with such an amount of mail that even the prime minister needed to stand up and say "we wont let this happen" Feb 05 18:06:23 RST38h, netflix has gotten somewhat popular in the US&Canada Feb 05 18:07:02 johnx: yes but that was since the DVD mailing time Feb 05 18:07:36 johnx, the problem of monopolies. Feb 05 18:08:24 GAN: Telcos are natural monopolies, there is only a few wires going into your home and telcos own 'em Feb 05 18:08:33 RST38h, sort of. Feb 05 18:08:42 GAN: Hence their protests against municipal WiFi Feb 05 18:08:58 Which they apparently managed t kill almost everywhere in the US, right? Feb 05 18:09:11 RST38h, article from last year says: 15 million subscribers of which 60% stream content Feb 05 18:09:16 http://techcrunch.com/2010/07/21/netflix-users/ Feb 05 18:09:24 That combined with the crazy regulatory requirements imposed by the FCC makes it impossible for small companies to compete Feb 05 18:09:29 johnx: Wow Feb 05 18:09:47 it's admittedly a pretty slick service Feb 05 18:10:30 johnx: do they still charge the same as they charged for mail-in DVDs? Feb 05 18:11:14 RST38h, they just added the streaming part free. Then later they bumped the plan by $1/month and offered a 'streaming only' plan at the old price Feb 05 18:11:36 GAN: You mean, nobody has figured they can wire a neighborhood with CAT5 and share the same account with an ISP? Feb 05 18:11:54 GAN: Or place a few WiFi access points, with the same effect? Feb 05 18:12:05 AHEM Feb 05 18:12:07 chx, out of interest. Do you see the flaws with an emotion-based argument like that? Feb 05 18:12:24 and then the ISP disables you because sharing is not allowed. Feb 05 18:12:41 johnx: Hmm, so basically it is unlimited movies for a flat monthly fee? Feb 05 18:12:43 you need a "leased line" for that which, of course, is hideously expensive. Feb 05 18:12:49 chx: Howdo they know? Feb 05 18:12:59 RST38h: this has been so since forever? Feb 05 18:13:20 RST38h: unlimited movies for a flat fee, yes, but you cna't watch on Linux Feb 05 18:13:33 RST38h, yeah, but they don't put the newest stuff online, and sometimes they don't get streaming deals with studios Feb 05 18:13:44 chx:So, how do they know, since forever? =) Feb 05 18:13:57 RST38h: what, read any ISP ToS Feb 05 18:14:07 (btw, leased lines were something like $700/mo and that was 13years ago) Feb 05 18:14:17 chx: You are not answering the question Feb 05 18:14:29 RST38h: oh, how woudl the ISP know it? Feb 05 18:14:29 johnx: Torrent then. Feb 05 18:14:33 but really, it's a pretty great deal and the reason that I get away without having cable TV or even an antenna to receive OTA broadcasts :) Feb 05 18:14:51 RST38h: that's a good question... deep packet investigation? i dunno, it could be your home NAT, right? Feb 05 18:15:04 johnx: On the other hand, I have to admit I haven't used Torrent for anything more than downloading a season of Dr Who Feb 05 18:15:11 RST38h, exactly. Netflix lets me cut down on my torrents ;) It's great for the "I want to watch something right now" mindset Feb 05 18:15:16 chx: So, there is no answer. Feb 05 18:15:30 johnx: Still takes time to start streaming I guess Feb 05 18:15:42 RST38h: so let's put this way -- putting down CAT5 is expensive ('cos digging the street is epxneisve) and investing money on the hope the ISP won't catch is not the best business plan. Feb 05 18:15:54 chx:No, wrong answer. Feb 05 18:15:56 RST38h, 30s? Probably longer to get a DVD off the shelf Feb 05 18:16:01 hello all, how do i check the currect firmware and maemo version? and does the software updater upgrades to the newest version and firmware or i should manually flash it? Feb 05 18:16:10 current* Feb 05 18:16:28 johnx: Can'ttake 30s Feb 05 18:16:43 compengi, Settings -> About product Feb 05 18:16:45 johnx: Probably takes a couple of minutes at least, to fill up the buffer Feb 05 18:17:05 compengi, Current is: 20.2010.36-2 Feb 05 18:17:10 RST38h, want me to test it? Feb 05 18:17:12 chx: Don't need to dig it in, really Feb 05 18:17:19 johnx: If you have the service, yes Feb 05 18:17:29 johnx: Also, does it have hiccups? Feb 05 18:17:41 rarely Feb 05 18:17:41 johnx, aha, so i have the latest, and what about the firmware? Feb 05 18:17:47 'cause it is either fast startup or possibility of hiccups Feb 05 18:18:14 RST38h, I think it's "more possibility of hiccups early" and then it keeps building a buffer Feb 05 18:18:28 johnx: Depends on your connection I guess Feb 05 18:18:36 I have a good connection ;) Feb 05 18:18:51 and netflix has good connectivity Feb 05 18:18:53 johnx: All attempts at streaming I have seen in the States (mostly Comcast) were PAIN Feb 05 18:19:31 Netflix has some serious geopgraphic diversity, deals with multiple backbone providers Feb 05 18:20:27 compengi, what about it? It's the latest. Did you want to reflash? Feb 05 18:20:40 RST38h, IIRC, their plan from the beginning was the streaming stuff, even when they were getting it jump started with the mailing DVDs thing. Feb 05 18:22:25 johnx: Doubt it: when they came up to be, video streaming was a pie in the sky Feb 05 18:22:28 Unobtainable Feb 05 18:22:37 about 13s to moving video Feb 05 18:22:47 Pretty good Feb 05 18:22:50 maybe it buffers in the background as soon as I pick a video? Feb 05 18:22:59 johnx, i see, so the maemo software is the firmware Feb 05 18:23:18 compengi, yeah. people sometimes use both words interchangeably Feb 05 18:23:21 Netflix is great when it works Feb 05 18:23:30 johnx: As longas your download speed is faster than play back, why not Feb 05 18:23:32 RST38h, they might be doing some terribly 'clever' stuff for all I know, but the effect is that it works well from a user point of view Feb 05 18:23:51 johnx, good to know :) Feb 05 18:23:57 johnx: Nah, cannot cheat the information theory Feb 05 18:24:21 johnx: It either looks like shit (see Youtube) or requires long startup, or hiccups, or (most often) all the above Feb 05 18:24:40 RST38h, err, I mean there's a screen when you select a movie, before you hit 'play' for that movie. The might already be streaming it before I even confirm my choice Feb 05 18:25:30 btw how much time does it usually take to fully charge the phone when it's turned off? i left the phone on till it went off and now charging it for ~2.5h, is it usual? Feb 05 18:25:36 prebuffering? should be easy to detect by watching network activity =) Feb 05 18:26:09 compengi, Are you charging from USB? or a wall charger? Feb 05 18:26:17 from the wall charger Feb 05 18:26:29 RST38h, or fast startup with higher probability of hiccups early on, then fill the buffer aggressively. They also do tricks with different quality levels to suit different bandwidth Feb 05 18:26:39 compengi, it's probably almost charged Feb 05 18:27:24 johnx: again that requires the bandwidth Feb 05 18:27:36 johnx, btw it's charging while it's on, i misinterpret myself Feb 05 18:27:43 johnx: on the other hand, you may have the bandwidth given good connectivity in the US Feb 05 18:28:05 johnx: As there is just a handful of pipes between here and the US, I do not have the same here :) Feb 05 18:28:15 RST38h, yeah, but "see also: adaptive bitrate" :) Feb 05 18:28:27 and they only offer it in the US and Canada anyways Feb 05 18:28:36 you'd need to do some clever proxying Feb 05 18:30:04 johnx: Torrent. Feb 05 18:30:12 RST38h, whatever floats your boat :) Feb 05 18:30:49 johnx: [un]funny thing is, I haven't downloaded a single US blockbuster movie, ever Feb 05 18:31:10 johnx: It is always some weird, old, usually european stuff Feb 05 18:31:37 johnx: and it is quite possible that I am not alone in this Feb 05 18:32:06 :) Feb 05 18:32:15 The internet is a great repository of things you cannot buy in any store. Feb 05 18:32:49 I was sad to find the link to Borland Turbo C 2.0 is dead. Feb 05 18:34:03 derf:YOu can still get WatcomC though, it is better! =) Feb 05 18:34:22 For those times when you absolutely need to write a Novell driver or an OS/2app Feb 05 18:34:28 RST38h: That is actually what I did. Feb 05 18:34:31 grrrr, is there anything I can do to make "make modules_install" install to a $PREFIX? Feb 05 18:34:44 (linux kernel) Feb 05 18:34:46 They even have a Linux version, but it won't build for x86-64. Feb 05 18:34:56 "Unknown architecture" Feb 05 18:35:44 nevermind. $INSTALL_MOD_PATH Feb 05 18:35:45 compengi: iirc the specs say it needs 3.5h Feb 05 18:35:54 johnx: O=$PREFIX? Feb 05 18:35:55 * johnx needed to RTFMakefile Feb 05 18:36:12 though it is reaching some 90% after 90min Feb 05 18:36:30 derf: Hack it! Feb 05 18:36:47 The goal of the exercise was to get something working fast. Feb 05 18:36:48 wow, n900 just sold with english kb for 190 euro on ebay.de Feb 05 18:36:54 and a few minutes before 290 euro Feb 05 18:37:01 crazy price range Feb 05 18:37:14 I just needed to be able to test that some code worked with a 16-bit int, and real-mode DOS was the easiest platform to do that in. Feb 05 18:39:03 DocScrutinizer, wow.. my n79 with 1200mAh used to charge in ~1.25h lol Feb 05 18:39:46 DocScrutinizer, 3.5h while the phone is on or off? Feb 05 18:39:50 compengi: it's easy to make N900 tell you "charging finished" after 60min :-P Feb 05 18:40:03 compengi: that's largely irrelevant Feb 05 18:40:32 it's the pretty slow topping charge at end of charging that takes lots of time Feb 05 18:40:34 DocScrutinizer, well.. i hope n79 didn't fool me Feb 05 18:40:35 :P Feb 05 18:41:00 i know Feb 05 18:41:01 it'S a question how you define "charging finished" - nothing to do with fooling Feb 05 18:41:08 DocScrutinizer, except for emergency charge, is it ever really charging while off? Feb 05 18:41:18 no Feb 05 18:41:19 I mean, don't they use X11 to display the charging screen? Feb 05 18:41:32 johnx: no Feb 05 18:41:37 johnx: phone is running when charging Feb 05 18:41:49 just with minimal os Feb 05 18:42:07 it's entering a different init-state, like init 1 maybe Feb 05 18:42:18 called ACT_DEAD Feb 05 18:42:46 it can even run sw-updates OTA during that :-D Feb 05 18:42:51 ah, on the N800 it booted all the way into X to display the charging icon Feb 05 18:43:08 i wonder why nokia decided to use a 1320mAh battery on such a power consuming phone :/ Feb 05 18:43:24 it's already brick-sized :) Feb 05 18:43:27 probably it was the best fit Feb 05 18:43:36 i've seen phones with 1800mAh Feb 05 18:43:38 form factor wise Feb 05 18:44:03 well.. n900 is already huge :P Feb 05 18:44:06 DocScrutinizer: sw-updates while charging in off state? :-O Feb 05 18:44:10 btw N900 by no means is power hungry Feb 05 18:44:19 poorly written apps are, though Feb 05 18:44:27 Sicelo: yep Feb 05 18:44:36 well, they could have used bigger battery anyways Feb 05 18:44:37 if they would have added +1x1x1 cm it wouldn't make much of a difference, would it? :D Feb 05 18:44:50 LOL Feb 05 18:45:08 do it like in nokia 5110 Feb 05 18:45:09 that'd be much more of a brick than even N810 Feb 05 18:45:15 where battery was a back cover at the same time Feb 05 18:45:24 lol Feb 05 18:45:27 so you have bit more space Feb 05 18:45:34 i've seen such phones Feb 05 18:45:41 6310i or so Feb 05 18:45:46 haha Feb 05 18:45:47 my dad uses it till now Feb 05 18:46:09 my 6210 is pretty lean, compared to even the N900 Feb 05 18:46:35 anyway, dinnertime Feb 05 18:46:38 cya o/ Feb 05 18:47:17 see ya Feb 05 18:47:27 Enjoy it DocScrutinizer :) Feb 05 18:47:28 thanks for the info Feb 05 19:15:31 can i switch off the sound while tapping on the touch screen? Feb 05 19:15:39 Meanwhile: Hackers Penetrate Nasdaq Computer Networks Feb 05 19:16:24 hello everybody. i have a quick question about the n900 and was wondering if somebody could help me. Feb 05 19:17:20 sleepee: maybe. Feb 05 19:17:26 sleepee: What is your problem? Feb 05 19:17:50 yea Feb 05 19:18:05 well, i got my n900 a while ago and am planning to use it with t-mobile, but they need to know where to put the APN.\ Feb 05 19:18:12 wow, that's nasty Feb 05 19:18:18 sleepee: Are you in the US? Feb 05 19:18:23 they don't know where to put this nuber Feb 05 19:18:37 in puerto rico, but i think it's the same t-mobile Feb 05 19:18:48 sleepee: It is - but implementation details differ Feb 05 19:19:21 http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/fapn/ for example Feb 05 19:19:24 hmm.. well, i've been playing with the phone trying to figure out where to put this number but i can't find it Feb 05 19:19:39 It's not a number usually Feb 05 19:20:00 It's an address, like an interenet address, but not really Feb 05 19:20:23 ahhh i see.. so i have to download this app and use that? Feb 05 19:20:44 APN for internet/data? Feb 05 19:21:10 yes @ DocScrutinizer51 if i'm not mistaken Feb 05 19:21:20 sleepee: that's one way to do it - usually your service provider will send you a special SMS, and it just works. Feb 05 19:21:42 you put that yourself into settings - internet - new_connection Feb 05 19:22:08 i can put the apn into the internet connections settings? Feb 05 19:22:09 or you get that SMS Feb 05 19:22:19 yes Feb 05 19:23:14 oh, i see... well, i'll download that fapn app just in case as well.. the t-mobile people had never seen the n900 and it didn't look like they knew what they were doing with that phone Feb 05 19:23:24 lol Feb 05 19:23:48 compengi: check touchscreen click volume, in settings input (iirc, or screen) Feb 05 19:23:55 Generally, if you can get them to send a SMS with settings to the phone, it 'just works'. Feb 05 19:24:17 btw, i don't need anything else to actually use the n900 on the tmobile network as a phone do i? Feb 05 19:24:36 generally your provider doesn't ask you where to put that Feb 05 19:24:39 sleepee: Shouldn't. Though I don't know if it works at all in brazil. Feb 05 19:25:03 sleepee: generally, if it can work, it will work. Feb 05 19:25:44 DocScrutinizer51, i don't have a volume option in the screen settings Feb 05 19:25:57 mompls Feb 05 19:26:04 the way they explained the apn to me, it seemed like just a type of access point or a router.. Feb 05 19:26:46 settings - profile, last setting there Feb 05 19:27:15 sleepee: that's correct Feb 05 19:29:05 ok.. well, i just downloaded the fapn app... it seems easy enough for the tmobile people to work with. thanks for the help guys! Feb 05 19:30:22 oh wait!! i have another question... not related to apn though. lol Feb 05 19:30:57 DocScrutinizer51, thanks, found it Feb 05 19:31:11 to update the phone to pr 1.3 it seems like i need ovi suite or something installed on my computer. Feb 05 19:31:18 sleepee: fapn is for mms Feb 05 19:31:31 not needed for normal data access Feb 05 19:32:16 you first should get normal data working, then see about MMS, they usually have a different APN Feb 05 19:32:17 @ DocScrutinizer51 idk, that's what the tmobile people told me i needed for internet access Feb 05 19:32:42 Oops - I thought it was for APN Feb 05 19:32:53 it seems they have different internet apn's for different phones Feb 05 19:32:54 They can't just tell you teh APN? Or you look it up? Feb 05 19:33:36 hmm... i didn't ask. Feb 05 19:33:48 i'll google it though Feb 05 19:35:19 i think i mightve found it.. epc.tmobile.com i'll give it a try.. Feb 05 19:36:53 sure Feb 05 19:37:35 hmm.. i added with the fapn app and it tells me to edit the control panel. Feb 05 19:38:11 settings - internet_connections - connections - new - next "name of accesspoint" Feb 05 19:38:26 DO NOT USE FAPN! Feb 05 19:38:43 lol.. ok.. no more fapn Feb 05 19:38:56 fapn is for MMS! Feb 05 19:39:01 lolololol Feb 05 19:40:54 [2011-02-05 20:31:58] you first should get normal data working, then see about MMS, they usually have a different APN Feb 05 19:41:00 Oops - sorry, I misundertood what it was for. I've never seen the normal set AP?N thingy Feb 05 19:41:04 ok... i added epc.tmobile.com to the ssid. Feb 05 19:41:30 to WHAT? Feb 05 19:41:31 ssid is the wrong place Feb 05 19:41:47 lol!!! im confused.. Feb 05 19:41:58 settings - internet_connections - connections - new - next "name of accesspoint" Feb 05 19:42:00 settings - internet_connections - connections - new - next "name of accesspoint" Feb 05 19:42:02 settings - internet_connections - connections - new - next "name of accesspoint" Feb 05 19:42:56 when i tap on new it asks me for the name of the connection.. i just put tmobile. Feb 05 19:43:27 Is there an existing cellphone internet connection? Feb 05 19:43:32 If there is, it will do that Feb 05 19:43:53 The icon for an existing cellphone internet connection is like two arrows Feb 05 19:43:54 -> Feb 05 19:43:56 <- Feb 05 19:43:59 In a circle Feb 05 19:44:11 If there is one, you need to edit it Feb 05 19:44:17 yep, sorry Feb 05 19:44:31 lol!!! i think i forgot to tell youguys i don't actually have service with tmobile yet Feb 05 19:44:48 prolly you already have a connection of whatver name that's a GPRS connection, selct that one and 'edit' Feb 05 19:45:35 ok.. so when i actually get my cell phone activated with tmobile, i can edit the cell phone internet connection and from there add the apn? Feb 05 19:45:56 you can only config one GPRS connection for data(internet) - a flaw of the settings and connectivity manager Feb 05 19:46:51 gprs? Feb 05 19:48:46 oh.. that's the cellular connection... Feb 05 19:51:00 hmm... i see.. well i was just askin for info for when i actually get my cell activated... thanks for the help guys! Feb 05 19:54:15 Good luck. Feb 05 20:01:23 Can I talk some kind soul into testing my app (orrery) in the Extras Testing repository? It's been in QA purgatory for a couple of weeks, and needs one more positive vote to graduate. Feb 05 20:03:05 you bet I'll do :-) Feb 05 20:03:15 Thanks! Feb 05 20:03:22 orrery is GREAT Feb 05 20:03:40 I didn't know you ever ran it. Feb 05 20:04:03 I love it since _es Feb 05 20:04:08 ages* Feb 05 20:04:58 That's great to hear. Please, please let me know of any features you'd like to have added. I'm afraid I'm adding stuff that nobody but me cares about. Feb 05 20:05:33 Like the new analemma. Feb 05 20:19:05 damn, I never before heard of analemma, and it's nice to learn about the data in it Feb 05 20:20:09 I always wonder when the sat dishes will incinerate the LNBs, with this data I probably could figure Feb 05 20:20:13 I think the analemma may be the science figure that more people have seen and puzzled over, than any other. Most globes used to print the analemma in the Pacific Ocean for some reason. Feb 05 20:21:40 The analemma very slowly changes over time, as the earth's orbit changes, and the pole precesses. orrery properly calculates it for the year you select - that's why it's rather slow, it's doing a very careful calculation that retures nearly 3/4 of a million trig function calls. Feb 05 20:22:03 s/retures/requires/ Feb 05 20:22:03 Ken-Young meant: The analemma very slowly changes over time, as the earth's orbit changes, and the pole precesses. orrery properly calculates it for the year you select - that's why it's rather slow, it's doing a very careful calculation that requires nearly 3/4 of a mi... Feb 05 20:23:07 heh, now I see why it took 2s to open :-D Feb 05 20:25:25 I'm slowly converting the solar system calculations to the VSOP87 package, with is far more accurate than the eorbital elements (and derivitives of orbital elements) that I'm currently using to plot planets. VSOP87 gives sub-arcsecond accuracy. Feb 05 20:25:35 * DocScrutinizer51 still tries to wrap his head around the analemma +/-afew minutes Feb 05 20:27:05 With VSOP87, I can now do things like calculate the moment when a season starts with high accuracy. Feb 05 20:27:05 well, if it's optified then I doubt there could be anything fishy in such a professionally done app Feb 05 20:27:17 It's optified. Feb 05 20:28:02 you should post the link to vote ;-) Feb 05 20:28:27 http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/orrery/3.2.3-1/ Feb 05 20:28:42 i suspect if women had pants with pockets, their key chains wouldn't be so damned huge Feb 05 20:32:07 Thanks, Doc! Feb 05 20:32:14 Ken-Young: go ahead :-D Feb 05 20:33:04 thanks for the nice app :-) Feb 05 20:33:26 voting for it is the least I can do Feb 05 20:43:12 cheers and hooray for another killer app in extras :-D Feb 05 20:45:01 Flickr stats information is bad for my health. Feb 05 20:45:06 Now I have to update the wiki... Feb 05 20:45:26 Someone is searching for pictures of wazd on Google and ending up on my photostream. Feb 05 21:10:57 I can no longer take screenshots on my N900 by pressing CNTRL+SHIFT+P this may have started when I downloaded the Community OS Update. Has anyone else seen this problem? Could someone else running the Community OS mods try to take a screenshot that way, to see if it still works for you? Feb 05 21:11:36 Ken-Young: worked for me last time I checked Feb 05 21:11:54 Venemo, After enabling Community OS? Feb 05 21:13:34 Ken-Young: if you are refferring to the community SSU, then yes Feb 05 21:14:00 Somebody needs to code up a rimshot applet. Feb 05 21:14:09 GAN900: what's rimshot? Feb 05 21:14:18 Venemo, Yes, that's what I meant. THanks for the info - I've probably messed up my box in some other way, then. Feb 05 21:15:15 Venemo, the drum sequence that plays when somebody makes a stupid pun. Feb 05 21:15:32 bad duh-dump tssshh Feb 05 21:15:47 GAN900: :D Feb 05 21:16:13 GAN900: get me the sound effect and I may make you such a widget :P Feb 05 21:17:09 freesound.org must have something. Feb 05 21:17:22 any body help with queenbeecon command problem Feb 05 21:22:43 DocScrutinizer: wanna test the new version of puzzle-master? Feb 05 21:23:04 sure Feb 05 21:24:12 DocScrutinizer51: do you have libqtm-sensors and qt 4.7? Feb 05 21:26:40 let's assume I have Feb 05 21:30:18 sorry, this crap connection disconnected me Feb 05 21:30:24 DocScrutinizer51: do you have libqtm-sensors and qt 4.7? Feb 05 21:30:39 let's assume I have Feb 05 21:32:13 DocScrutinizer51: well then you should wait 5 minutes until I commit to git and upload a deb somewhere Feb 05 21:32:57 well, what if I don't wait ? :-P Feb 05 21:33:56 I thought gerbick quit. Feb 05 21:35:38 GAN900: eh? Feb 05 21:41:18 DocScrutinizer51, he posted an "I'm leaving thread", yet he's still out typing up silliness. Feb 05 21:41:22 (Talk) Feb 05 21:41:42 haha Feb 05 21:44:53 "I quit" threads never made much sense to me. Feb 05 21:47:17 DocScrutinizer51: "well, what if I don't wait ? :-P" -> you can teleport here and try on my N900 Feb 05 22:11:55 DocScrutinizer51: okay, I finished the code cleanup and also pushed to Gitorious. Feb 05 22:12:02 DocScrutinizer51: now building the package Feb 05 22:13:51 DocScrutinizer51: this is a fresh scratchbox installation so it could take a while to install the dependencies :( Feb 05 22:34:19 DocScrutinizer51: see http://venemo.net/puzzle-master_1.1.0_armel.deb Feb 05 22:35:08 DocScrutinizer51: most notable changes are perf improvements and some bux fixes, plus it now remembers the images you select Feb 05 22:36:00 did anyone see that dickbag trying to sell his 'optomise n900 script'? Feb 05 22:36:20 vi_: no, why? Feb 05 22:36:34 made me rofl all over my corn flakes Feb 05 22:38:05 lol vi_ Feb 05 22:38:16 vi_: yeah, some guys are thinking they can sell crap :D Feb 05 22:38:21 Venemo: to keep up the myth I never go sleep, I just answer 'I'll check it later' Feb 05 22:39:00 DocScrutinizer51: what? you never go to sleep! :P Feb 05 22:39:12 doc doesnt sleep...he bides his time. Feb 05 22:49:14 Fun - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VrZ4C9kkZvA#t=850s - how to snoop on your citezens! Feb 05 23:01:47 Ken-Young: http://my.arava.co.il/~matan/repo/Modified_Hildon_Desktop.html - check /apps/osso/hildon-desktop/key-actions/preset_shift_ctrl Feb 05 23:02:35 MrBawb, Yes, thanks. Someone pointed me to the solution on T.M.O. Feb 05 23:04:01 the schema file is /usr/share/gconf/schemas/hildon-desktop-keys.schemas Feb 05 23:04:15 solution? Feb 05 23:05:50 DocScrutinizer, It was a Community SSU issue: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11813 Feb 05 23:05:51 Bug 11813: All shortcut keys, for example screenshot with Ctrl + Shift + P broken Feb 05 23:06:29 meh, really scary Feb 05 23:13:54 actually I'd hate to see this nice feature break: http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.screenshots/joerg900.10092 Feb 05 23:16:14 yeah, that was broken for me till I registered the schema Feb 05 23:21:51 that was already fixed Feb 05 23:21:54 the keys problem Feb 05 23:21:59 and Ctrl-Backspace works as well Feb 05 23:22:15 as Alt-Tab simulation (though I don't really like that) Feb 05 23:22:31 btw there are some 'hidden features' with that one: keeping bs pressed and clicking ctrl rotates backwards. releasing bs last doesn't select the window so the taskswitcher view keeps open. with tasksw open, you can select which task goes foreground wit qweasd and even *close* with shift-qweasd Feb 05 23:22:42 that's right Feb 05 23:22:57 and if a notification is open, hildon-desktop crashes Feb 05 23:23:00 heheh Feb 05 23:23:04 but we'll fix that eventually Feb 05 23:30:31 only thing painfully missing is a way to escape to appstarter menu Feb 05 23:30:43 via kbd Feb 05 23:30:56 and then select apps to start there Feb 05 23:33:54 but - as much as I like the qwerasdf positional shortcuts - this will prolly fail for appstarter, and also it's quite err, special. A highlighting frame moving around with up/down/left/right to select the item to activate with e.g ENTER, would be more mainstream, GUI concept wise Feb 05 23:35:28 also extremely missing: global shortcut for opening menu in an app Feb 05 23:36:16 N810 had a dedicated hw-button for this. N900 / fremantle doesn't even support a keyborad shortcut :-(( Feb 05 23:37:14 a triple cheers on the usability&GUI-design tram @ Nokia :-S Feb 05 23:37:15 ;o Feb 05 23:37:33 err, ¡¡¡ Feb 05 23:40:41 my emoticon parser segfaulted on ;o Feb 05 23:41:22 NFC what it might mean Feb 05 23:41:54 DocScrutinizer: so, could you test the app for me? Feb 05 23:42:15 Venemo: sorry, not the right mood right now Feb 05 23:42:30 I'll do it tomorrow, I promise Feb 05 23:43:20 okay DocScrutinizer :) Feb 05 23:43:55 * DocScrutinizer starts to understand why M. Jackson used propofol Feb 05 23:44:19 DocScrutinizer, 'cause he was killed by the mob? Feb 05 23:44:53 that's not exactly what I thought Feb 05 23:45:32 a triple cheers on the usability&GUI-design tram @ Nokia :-S Feb 05 23:45:45 please, thank the iPhone first Feb 05 23:45:49 tram? Feb 05 23:46:04 damn Feb 05 23:46:08 team Feb 05 23:47:08 MohammadAG: elaborate please Feb 05 23:47:49 the iTeam made one button for the iPhone to make it easy to use Feb 05 23:48:11 you forgot the "" tags Feb 05 23:48:26 Nokia used the idea and backfired = no buttons Feb 05 23:48:48 yeah, prolly Feb 05 23:49:00 gashead move Feb 05 23:49:28 though really, the N900 isn't simple to use for the average iJoe Feb 05 23:49:36 they simply forgot the N900 has a full hw kbd Feb 05 23:50:22 even if they added a button Feb 05 23:50:34 though i have to credit apple Feb 05 23:50:52 the one button can have three functions Feb 05 23:51:38 home / double c: multitasking BS / triple: accessibility Feb 05 23:52:22 this is a much worse and fundamental crime: they forgot to implement full support for hw kbd. it's starting with ctrl-fn special char vkbd, and doesn't stop at things like missing menu-key-shortcut Feb 05 23:55:06 even redond understood they need key shortcuts for *everything*, or more precisely: mouse is an alternative IM, and you should be able to completely operate the device without mouse and only using kbd, as you should even have a full vkbd to operate device with mouse only and no hw kbd attached Feb 05 23:55:17 Redmond Feb 05 23:56:24 they even have two complementary key-shortcut schemes, the alt and the ctrl level Feb 05 23:56:47 maemo otoh has *none* Feb 05 23:56:50 not to worry, apple plans to remove its button too Feb 05 23:57:00 they want to replace it with a seven-finger-required gesture Feb 05 23:57:28 ¡¡¡ Feb 05 23:57:36 unfortunately, us humans are not born with seven fingers per hand. steve jobs answer's "your parents shouldn't have you raised you that way". Feb 05 23:57:36 lol javispedro Feb 06 00:00:34 javispedro, so we're all retarded in steve's eyes? Feb 06 00:02:16 * javispedro tries the android sdk. the first thing I write "whoami", returns: "whoami: permission denied". And they say Android is open... Feb 06 00:02:23 meh, I'm not argueing about iPhone's single button concept here. N900 and maemo have/are supposed to work with a full qwerty kbd Feb 06 00:02:55 and it's not acceptble there are no kbd shortcuts for virtually anything Feb 06 00:03:50 esp since this is a massive regression from diablo to fremantle Feb 06 00:04:06 y Feb 06 00:11:09 any 1 help im trying to mount m900 on ubuntu10.10 but it aint happening an im lost Feb 06 00:12:05 stevomanu: is it in mass storage mode? Feb 06 00:12:39 yes , but i need the whole system to mount as im trying to create flashable image Feb 06 00:13:08 stevomanu: you can't mount the whole system as USB mass storage. what are you trying to do exactly? Feb 06 00:13:44 create an image of my rootfs so i can create a flashable image for maemo flasher Feb 06 00:14:15 stevomanu: i have no idea whether that's possible or a good idea, but if it is, you need SSH. Feb 06 00:15:20 its based on this http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/01/making-flashable-rootfss-for-n900.html Feb 06 00:15:59 but robinthe1st from maemo changed code a little here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63975 Feb 06 00:16:03 but none work Feb 06 00:16:35 stevomanu: yeah, you can use SSH to get at the full filesystem Feb 06 00:17:11 well got that installed so will set it up see if it helps Feb 06 00:17:18 blagged now thou lol Feb 06 00:17:33 stevomanu: i have no idea what you just said. Feb 06 00:17:47 never mind Feb 06 00:18:44 my mind is lost in all this code !!! Feb 06 00:19:31 stevomanu: if you aren't quite sure what's going on, i suggest not blowing stuff up. Feb 06 00:20:10 well i need to learn thou as it would be so usefull to master Feb 06 00:24:13 MohammadAG: can I ask you to test a new version of puzzle-master? Feb 06 00:24:49 Venemo, no, you know why? Feb 06 00:24:55 cause you already did :P Feb 06 00:26:03 MohammadAG: what are your findings, if any? :) Feb 06 00:27:12 question to anybody that can help, if i may: why isn't it possible to do an over-the-air update of maemo on nokia n900? is there any other alternative other than using nokia pc suite? Feb 06 00:27:43 o.o i never use pc suite to update my n900 Feb 06 00:27:46 sleepee: there is over-the-air, it's callied SSU (seamless software update) Feb 06 00:27:49 sleepee: maybe you don't have enough free disk space? Feb 06 00:28:39 i should have enough free space.. my hard drive isn't even half full. i can update apps, but i can't upgrade to pr 1.3 Feb 06 00:28:39 sleepee: see http://maemo.nokia.com/features/maemo-update/ Feb 06 00:28:40 is nokia pc suite the same thing as Maemo Flasher, or is it like the windows equivalent or something? Feb 06 00:28:49 sleepee: you have a hard drive? Feb 06 00:29:12 hardcoded GUI Feb 06 00:29:14 i'm sorry, i meant memory on my n900 isn't full Feb 06 00:29:34 it's for symbian devices, I'm not sure how they glued in maemo support Feb 06 00:29:49 everytime i try to upgrade maemo 5, it tells me i must use nokia pc suite and i can't move forward fro there.. Feb 06 00:30:04 MohammadAG: ? Feb 06 00:30:59 i'm going to try to do a video capture of what i mean and upload it to youtube or something... Feb 06 00:31:43 sleepee: quite common problem... a maemo update requires a whole lot more space than updating apps... try some of the stuff on http://wiki.maemo.org/Free_up_rootfs_space Feb 06 00:32:33 sleepee how much rootfs do you have free ? Feb 06 00:32:46 free rootfs soz Feb 06 00:32:48 hmm.. i'm going to check and see how much rootfs space i have Feb 06 00:33:38 lol!!! wow.. i only have 28.8 mb free.. Feb 06 00:33:47 i guess that's why i can't update Feb 06 00:33:58 maemo 5 update is 80 something mb Feb 06 00:34:47 gutted , looks like its a reflash then Feb 06 00:34:58 so if i free up at least 90 mb or so i should be able to do an ota update? Feb 06 00:35:25 sleepee: correct Feb 06 00:37:00 ok... i'll try to clear up some memory and i'll come back and let you know what happens... it would've been nice if the maemo updater mentioned this though.. Feb 06 00:37:31 goodluck Feb 06 00:38:39 thanks... i hope i don't delete too much stuff lol Feb 06 00:40:59 next time flash a bigger rootfs image give you more space for installing apps Feb 06 00:42:06 i'd love to do that, but i'm a novice at this and i can't risk to mess up my phone :( Feb 06 00:42:42 i don't trust myself to partition up my phone like that just yet Feb 06 00:42:44 its just a case of changing code when you reflash , but if you aint sure leave it Feb 06 00:55:26 sorry, nonsense Feb 06 00:55:31 im runnging this command tar xf 20110201-0838-rootfs.tar -C ./rootfs/ an result is tar: rootfs: Cannot chdir: No such file or directory Feb 06 00:55:45 its defo in right place Feb 06 01:01:35 sleepee: sometimes rebooting also helps... oh, and according to this page you may need 42MB or so of free rootfs space: http://wiki.maemo.org/Cannot_install_firmware_update Feb 06 01:03:09 i think i also have some apps i installed from extras-devel so i may have to uninstall those too.. Feb 06 01:03:14 this might take a while... Feb 06 01:13:31 does debian chroot take up a lot of space on rootfs? Feb 06 01:13:51 no Feb 06 01:14:13 that is placed on the emmc, not on rootfs Feb 06 01:15:07 hmmm.. i thought so. i'm just uninstalling random apps hoping to free some space. especially the ones from extras-devel Feb 06 01:15:46 most apps are optified, which means designed to not use rootfs space, so unless you've installed something that isn't optified, that won't help much Feb 06 01:16:45 oh... guess i was wasting my time lol Feb 06 01:17:04 disabling extras-devel in the application manager, though, may help because the app catalog itself is stored on the rootfs Feb 06 01:17:42 and that can be done without uninstalling anything Feb 06 01:17:42 i disabled a few repos and it didn't seem to free up any space... i think i'll restart and see if that makes a difference Feb 06 01:19:54 have you not created a backup using backupmenu ?? Feb 06 01:20:29 yea, i think i created a backup on my computer using nokia pc suite. Feb 06 01:21:17 i was hoping i wouldn't need to use it though.. Feb 06 01:22:05 check out this post http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63975 app is called backupmenu v2 an it creates a backup of every thing no need to download apps again Feb 06 01:22:59 when you have a working system you like back it up then if any thing goes wrong just use app to restore it all /. , saves so much time Feb 06 01:24:25 so the only thing it doesnt back up is the MyDocs data? it saves everything else? Feb 06 01:25:09 yep thats correct Feb 06 01:25:48 hmmm... good call. i think i better do that now before i do something stupid. lol Feb 06 01:25:48 just as you left it , its probly my best app for n900 Feb 06 01:26:04 you made it? Feb 06 01:26:48 well no point now if your system is flawed as you will just have same problems after restore my advice is flash it fresh then get you device as you want an backup Feb 06 01:27:47 well.. my phone's not really messed up. i just have to free up some space on rootfs so i can update maemo. Feb 06 01:28:19 ye but a reflash gets rid of the junk you no longer need , but its up to you of course Feb 06 01:28:22 but it would probably be a good idea to backup before i keep messing around in root... Feb 06 01:28:54 doesnt matter cause its dead easy to reflash if you do kill it !! Feb 06 01:29:38 lol! i feel really stupid because i barely know what flashing means.. more reason to backup. lol Feb 06 01:30:18 just have a read here all the info you need http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware Feb 06 01:30:19 seems i was right... rebooting after uninstalling some apps freed up some space.. Feb 06 01:30:53 yea, i have a fair bit of reading to do tonight lol Feb 06 01:31:15 once you have done it , nothing to it Feb 06 01:31:36 my irc says i have missed 44 unread messages why i cant see then Feb 06 01:31:43 45 Feb 06 01:31:57 memoserv? Feb 06 01:32:04 i think you can /msg memoserv help Feb 06 01:32:43 new to irc i am its all a bit strange Feb 06 01:33:14 im not sure maybe its also more a freenode thing than an irc one Feb 06 01:33:59 MohammadAG: pingping Feb 06 01:34:06 i'm new too as you can probably guess.. Feb 06 01:34:12 yeah, freenode is doing all sorts of crap that's not standard irc Feb 06 01:34:20 ok cool Feb 06 01:35:16 villager: it's not exactly violation of standards, just implementation of extra stuff that isn't standard Feb 06 01:35:41 anyway, aren't all services non-standard extensions? Feb 06 01:35:42 BCMM: I know, I didn't say it was a violation Feb 06 01:36:01 he didn't say you said it was a ... etc etc Feb 06 01:36:05 :) Feb 06 01:36:11 this is why there isn't a reliable way to automate nickserv identification that works with all networks Feb 06 01:36:36 if nickservs where standardised, an IRC client could wait for nickserv to confirm login before /joining Feb 06 01:36:40 ^were Feb 06 01:36:51 as it is, they don't know how nickserv will do that Feb 06 01:36:56 (but I did say it was crap... and I'll stick to that...) Feb 06 01:37:49 villager: having a nickserv is crap? Feb 06 01:38:24 oh wow, you aren't identified... Feb 06 01:38:25 probably... but having a memoserv is worse Feb 06 02:59:24 * Dhraakellian enables -devel ever so briefly to install aptitude **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Feb 06 02:59:57 2011