**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 15 02:59:56 2011 Feb 15 03:05:35 Evenin' folks Feb 15 03:06:15 What's in store for maemo/ meego? Feb 15 03:07:52 Windows is a lot easier to code for. Feb 15 03:10:12 hm Feb 15 03:10:45 i get less packet loss now but the `driver reports beacon loss' and probe requests are just back... Feb 15 03:11:38 and again, a traceroute to google's dns stops them Feb 15 03:11:50 Wow... Nokia workers walking out in protest??? What is that? Feb 15 03:12:15 mh? Feb 15 03:12:23 i was talking about a wifi issue... :) Feb 15 03:14:09 nox-: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=946702#post946702 Feb 15 03:14:23 :P Feb 15 03:15:08 heh Feb 15 03:18:07 oh geez this usb stick has like 7 parts on it.... Feb 15 03:18:20 saandisk is silly Feb 15 04:08:52 * GeneralAntilles laughs at MohammadAG's Thanks! ratio. Feb 15 04:09:50 hi. i just purchased a nokia n800 and wanted some information on where to start with it Feb 15 04:11:15 anyone on? Feb 15 04:11:36 the button on the top is the power Feb 15 04:12:16 well yes i figured that. ive been doing some research on the device but all the info on development ive found is at least 2 years old Feb 15 04:12:29 richardcnkln: yep, there's been two devices since Feb 15 04:12:53 still usable, I use mine as an alarm clock/mpd client Feb 15 04:13:01 i was wondering if anyone has finished developing drivers for the graphics accelorator in the device Feb 15 04:13:06 lol Feb 15 04:13:30 well i got it to replace an ipod touch and found it at an obscenely low price on ebay Feb 15 04:13:47 NOK is down to $8.84. Feb 15 04:13:49 Fools. Feb 15 04:13:59 looked up some vids and tho it looks like its going to take more work to get it to do everything it looks like a much more capable system Feb 15 04:14:03 who are the fools? sellers or nok? Feb 15 04:15:23 doc|home: NOK. Feb 15 04:15:57 well Feb 15 04:16:09 what exactly have they done to be fools Feb 15 04:16:32 richardcnkln: didn't hear? they're going to use windows rubbish 7 from now on. Feb 15 04:17:03 and they're stuffing MeeGo Devices back in the closet. Feb 15 04:17:18 GeneralAntilles: that for definite now? Feb 15 04:17:31 doc|home: well, specifics are uncertain. Feb 15 04:17:51 But moving it to a pure R&D project for "future disruptions" sure doesn't sound useful. Feb 15 04:18:01 "Welcome to the 770, sans the hope for the future." Feb 15 04:18:01 yeah Feb 15 04:19:12 yeah i saw the dev sites for meego anbd mer and a fewother projects. its disappointing that they arent going to continue them Feb 15 04:19:33 this windows phone 7 wont last tho Feb 15 04:19:54 richardcnkln: neither will nokia... Feb 15 04:19:57 they are trying to get into the market where android and iphone are the top dogs Feb 15 04:20:06 it wont work Feb 15 04:20:14 not when they are quite a ways behind them Feb 15 04:20:26 well Feb 15 04:20:39 perhaps nokia is making some poor decisions atm Feb 15 04:20:46 MeeGo could've done that. Feb 15 04:21:04 If they weren't as agile as a wounded elephant. Feb 15 04:21:15 but they are a solid company with a good reputation Feb 15 04:21:39 i dont see how they could waste that too quickly for them to recognize those mistakes Feb 15 04:21:48 lol Feb 15 04:22:07 richardcnkln: introducing a microsoft exec is a good way to start... Feb 15 04:22:14 i did a little research on meego Feb 15 04:22:28 if it was developed properly i suppose it could compete with android Feb 15 04:22:43 It could beat Android Feb 15 04:22:47 if the google giant wasnt behind android Feb 15 04:22:49 More open, more useful Feb 15 04:22:52 Better backing Feb 15 04:23:03 but i didnt see any ways in which meego was clearly better than android Feb 15 04:23:08 Targeting more market segments, so it'd have a larger ecosystem. Feb 15 04:23:24 When your TV, your car, your phone and your laptop all work seamlessly together, well. . . . Feb 15 04:23:30 richardcnkln, no? Feb 15 04:23:34 How about real toolkits? Feb 15 04:23:38 Actually Open Source? Feb 15 04:23:44 true. as a matter of fact isnt bmw still going to use meego Feb 15 04:23:50 Not designed to facilitate operator lockdown? Feb 15 04:23:53 i havent seen anything to the contrary Feb 15 04:23:56 GM, too, I believe. Feb 15 04:24:13 Though I doubt most of their executives have heard Nokia went WP7. Feb 15 04:24:40 that sounds like something someone would have told them Feb 15 04:24:48 and anyways meego being open source Feb 15 04:25:11 its possible it could continue to be developed and perhaps adopted by bmw and gm Feb 15 04:25:46 Thanks, failop Feb 15 04:25:49 And Intel Feb 15 04:25:50 and TI Feb 15 04:25:53 AMD Feb 15 04:25:56 Etc, etc. Feb 15 04:26:03 But Nokia leaving is going to slow things down. Feb 15 04:26:36 true Feb 15 04:27:05 and as for the devices nokia has already put out Feb 15 04:28:10 being such an open device its entirely possible to jump to many other linux distros with further development Feb 15 04:28:10 tho i havent seen many good ones Feb 15 04:28:27 Especially not for mobile devices. Feb 15 04:29:05 richardcnkln: lol? Feb 15 04:29:15 would be nice to have one hot ghz-class phone with meego Feb 15 04:29:23 with 512MB Feb 15 04:29:30 "such an open device"… a whole 45% open! Feb 15 04:29:38 :) luke-jr Feb 15 04:29:43 richardcnkln: where are the other OS going to get video drivers? Feb 15 04:30:10 most of that dev seems to be going to porting android :( Feb 15 04:30:11 mobile or not. u guys are lucky with the nokia internet tablets Feb 15 04:30:11 with most of the portable devices ive put linux on the big barrier has been the fact that there was no mmu onboard Feb 15 04:30:11 the nokia internet tablets have mmu's Feb 15 04:30:11 not sure i understand that question Feb 15 04:30:15 luke-jr: compared to the rest of the market. Feb 15 04:30:31 ive seen debian, web os, and android ported to the internet tablets Feb 15 04:30:33 richardcnkln: everything has a MMU now. Feb 15 04:30:46 psp doesnt Feb 15 04:31:03 and only with the ipod touch did ipods have mmu's Feb 15 04:31:08 and palm pilots dont Feb 15 04:32:05 as a matter of fact i believe when the nokia n770 came out it was one of the only portable devices with an mmu Feb 15 04:34:36 and 800x480 Feb 15 04:34:52 very true Feb 15 04:35:04 the screen on those things still amazes me Feb 15 04:35:17 ppl didn't believe they were seeing it back then Feb 15 04:35:28 still looks good Feb 15 04:35:42 saw many reviews comparing it to even the current gen ipod touch Feb 15 04:35:46 it is better Feb 15 04:35:58 tho a little slower Feb 15 04:36:05 well Feb 15 04:36:10 the 800 is better Feb 15 04:36:16 heh Feb 15 04:36:20 the 770 is a little harder to do stuff Feb 15 04:36:29 * lofty306 still carries a 770 sometimes Feb 15 04:36:35 ha Feb 15 04:36:45 The 770 hardware is so purty. Feb 15 04:36:45 770 does my hi-fi stereo streaming duties now Feb 15 04:36:47 i mean its still kind of cool Feb 15 04:36:48 I love the cover. Feb 15 04:36:55 but mostly it runs like carman in the truck Feb 15 04:37:16 yeah i still think the 770 looks cooler than the 800 Feb 15 04:37:23 yep Feb 15 04:37:41 wish the internals of those things were as modable as the software Feb 15 04:37:42 and bounces nicely with the cover on round the cab offroading Feb 15 04:37:50 if only we could drop in a better processor Feb 15 04:37:53 maybe some more ram Feb 15 04:39:01 as soon as you try rendering websites, your wants go way up Feb 15 04:39:09 what i dont like bout the 900 is it got smaller Feb 15 04:39:43 i really dont have problems rendering websites on the 800 Feb 15 04:39:55 Temple1 flyby coverage on nasatv Feb 15 04:40:02 (ot :) Feb 15 04:40:05 tho ive only had it for a few days it seems to run just as well as the ipod touch Feb 15 04:40:15 a little more jerky when scrolling Feb 15 04:40:22 but the page still looks good Feb 15 04:40:25 better in fact Feb 15 04:41:10 which one? Feb 15 04:41:26 im running a nokia n800 Feb 15 04:41:38 just bought it Feb 15 04:41:39 i still want one of them Feb 15 04:41:47 50 bucks on ebay Feb 15 04:41:51 heh Feb 15 04:42:06 yeah its ridiculous Feb 15 04:42:25 thats even les s than i got the 770 for Feb 15 04:42:56 i saw a 770 with a buy it now price of 35 dollars Feb 15 04:43:11 the 810 is quite a bit more expensive Feb 15 04:43:30 but when i did the research the functionality of the units didnt looks different Feb 15 04:43:34 same speed and memory Feb 15 04:43:44 just with a keyboard on the 810 Feb 15 04:44:00 err that is the one i want Feb 15 04:44:16 well Feb 15 04:44:23 thats like 120 Feb 15 04:44:35 the 770 and 810 have different processors Feb 15 04:44:44 tho i saw a few listings on the maemo talk boards u could check out Feb 15 04:44:59 richardcnkln: 770 was not the first internet tablet. Feb 15 04:45:00 yes i was reffering to the 810 and the 800 Feb 15 04:45:11 your MMU-less devices were never really meant to be computers Feb 15 04:45:17 the 770 is a 250mhz processor right? Feb 15 04:45:18 just like portable microwaves Feb 15 04:45:32 770 was a joke IMO Feb 15 04:45:36 crazy that a 25mhz processor used to be a 'workstation' (NeXT) Feb 15 04:45:43 even when it was announced, it was below spec Feb 15 04:45:55 well for desktops a 250mhz processor used to be great Feb 15 04:46:04 go find one and run windows 98 on it Feb 15 04:46:13 it speeds through stuff perfectly fine Feb 15 04:46:17 unless u open internet Feb 15 04:46:29 it's those damn websites Feb 15 04:46:30 the future kind of hit those things hard :) Feb 15 04:46:40 the internet turned into a bloated sack of protoplasm Feb 15 04:46:42 it's abstraction Feb 15 04:47:14 i used to tell people that an old p4 computer would be perfectly fine to suite their needs if they didnt play games Feb 15 04:47:15 now Feb 15 04:47:17 I used to run Gentoo on 800 MHz :p Feb 15 04:47:28 the internet is a hog for processor and memory Feb 15 04:47:33 the old P4 is sufficient Feb 15 04:47:38 gentoo on a 200mmx Feb 15 04:47:41 no, P4 sucked Feb 15 04:47:43 P3 may be sufficient Feb 15 04:47:45 but not P4 Feb 15 04:47:45 i give u respect for running gentoo on anything Feb 15 04:47:53 but not anymore Feb 15 04:47:57 an old 500MHz mobile celery was more then enough Feb 15 04:47:58 u got to mean the other way around Feb 15 04:48:06 p3 was 500mhz to 1ghz Feb 15 04:48:07 richardcnkln: now I run Gentoo on i5-2400, N810, and N900 Feb 15 04:48:16 richardcnkln: P3 at 1 GHz was faster than P4 at 2 GHz Feb 15 04:48:27 and p4 was 1ghz to, i believe, 2.8ghz Feb 15 04:48:39 yes, but P4 "GHz" were SLOW Feb 15 04:48:44 hows that n810 run gentoo? Feb 15 04:48:55 richardcnkln: slonopotamus and I ported it Feb 15 04:49:06 requires a microSD for disk space ofc Feb 15 04:49:08 i mean is the performance good Feb 15 04:49:12 not really Feb 15 04:49:16 compared to the included maemo Feb 15 04:49:17 the biggest problem is lack of RAM Feb 15 04:49:19 yeah Feb 15 04:49:26 try dsl Feb 15 04:49:31 damn small linuz Feb 15 04:49:37 or puppy Feb 15 04:49:57 yeah that would work too Feb 15 04:50:11 but DSL will run on the included sd card :) Feb 15 04:50:15 its like 50mb Feb 15 04:52:10 did they ever get the BT/ketboard stuff fixed wwith the 900? i havent been able to liiink up to my kb for a long long timee havent tried in a long tiime Feb 15 04:52:31 richardcnkln: DSL is crap Feb 15 04:52:46 richardcnkln: but KDE barely loads in the 128 MB RAM Feb 15 04:52:56 so I ended up using console mode most of the time Feb 15 04:52:56 it is expandable just like any other linux Feb 15 04:53:07 KDE is KDE on Gentoo or DSL Feb 15 04:53:14 DSL won't make it run any better Feb 15 04:53:31 christ that pig Feb 15 04:53:32 um i believe that dls uses a completelydifferent gui than kde or gnome Feb 15 04:53:40 dont remember which let me look Feb 15 04:53:49 also, unlike N900, N810 is too closed for another OS to really run right Feb 15 04:55:21 what OS would you want to run? Feb 15 04:55:46 KDE is not exactly designed for a TS Feb 15 04:56:23 Gentoo KDE/GNU/Linux Feb 15 04:56:38 hmm thats an interesting question. i get those os's to run just for the sake of tinkering Feb 15 04:56:44 none of them really work right Feb 15 04:56:50 TS can be mouse position, and a button for clicks Feb 15 04:56:54 but if i had to choose it would be maemo Feb 15 04:57:02 there aren't many OS"s really designed for TS's w/o keyboards Feb 15 04:57:11 N810 and N900 have keyboards Feb 15 04:57:12 or if i could get it to run right id love to have a tiny windows 98 tablet :) Feb 15 04:57:30 richardcnkln: btw, did you ever hear of the Zaurus SL-C* line? Feb 15 04:57:34 haha Feb 15 04:57:42 saw those Feb 15 04:57:45 richardcnkln: go further back and make a Win 3.x tablet Feb 15 04:57:49 aka windows for pen computing Feb 15 04:57:49 they do lok cool Feb 15 04:58:00 i couldnt find one for sale at a reasonable price Feb 15 04:58:09 the Z's are nice Feb 15 04:58:14 i have windows 3.1 running on my sony psp Feb 15 04:58:18 with dosbox Feb 15 04:58:35 runs well but honestly what can u do with 3.1 Feb 15 04:58:44 i drag puppies behind my car Feb 15 04:58:50 :) Feb 15 04:58:54 if u like the zaurus line u should look at the fujitsu tablets Feb 15 04:59:05 full pc's basically Feb 15 04:59:10 The stylistic line? Feb 15 04:59:18 the fujitsu c500 came loaded with windows 2000 Feb 15 04:59:20 ya Feb 15 04:59:31 pupnik: one at a time or an entire liter? ;) Feb 15 04:59:36 saw one on ebay close out at 95 bucks Feb 15 04:59:54 you can get a Stylistic S1000 for $25 Feb 15 05:00:43 where? Feb 15 05:00:55 havent seen that one Feb 15 05:01:38 I'll sell you one for $35 + shipping (to cover my tax/shipping costs) =) Feb 15 05:01:46 been on the market for a while Feb 15 05:02:12 let me go look up the specs and i may take u up on that Feb 15 05:02:58 it is a 486DX4-100 Feb 15 05:03:10 ha Feb 15 05:03:15 RF pen; PCMCIA HD and extra PCMCIA slots Feb 15 05:03:17 well as cool as that would be Feb 15 05:03:25 http://www.fpc.fujitsu.com/www/content/products/Tablet-PCS/History/tablet-pc-history_18.php Feb 15 05:03:25 to just play with Feb 15 05:03:36 i dont think i have money i can just throw at that Feb 15 05:03:46 it is a nice little machine; probally on the order of a 770 Feb 15 05:04:10 I have a spare one since one vendor was selling the car charger version for $25 Feb 15 05:04:25 it is there if you wanna plan with it =) Feb 15 05:04:32 i cant believe something like that came out in 1996 Feb 15 05:04:43 ds3: actually i've seen people walking their dogs with their cars before - twice Feb 15 05:04:47 they are nice but $$$$ new Feb 15 05:04:47 must have been pretty futuristic to see back then Feb 15 05:05:12 pupnik: at 60mph? shouldn't that be walking their cheataus? Feb 15 05:05:19 pupnik, that workss till you forget the dog is there Feb 15 05:05:26 lazy bums Feb 15 05:05:54 sorry Feb 15 05:05:57 its close Feb 15 05:06:08 but nopt quite fast enough to do anything interesting with Feb 15 05:06:15 i've walked horses with a p-up but sombody is onthe taillgate holding the leash Feb 15 05:06:29 would prolly have a hard time even getting it to play music Feb 15 05:08:04 i never did get an answer to my original question. did they ever get the power vbr graphics chip drivers for the n800 and n810 Feb 15 05:08:33 if i could get that thing running this tablet would be a lot cooler Feb 15 05:10:09 depends on your needs; tablets have lots of uses Feb 15 05:13:22 tablet makes a nice thing on the side of the pc/laptop to let music/videos run on Feb 15 05:13:31 especially the archos 7.0 with built-in stand Feb 15 05:13:41 still haven't got meego on it tho Feb 15 05:14:08 ha the archos Feb 15 05:14:14 with the crippled marketplace Feb 15 05:14:42 tho if u wanted one of those did u know archos just released an internet table for less than 100 bucks Feb 15 05:14:48 look ath the archos 28 Feb 15 05:14:59 how big is it Feb 15 05:15:31 alot smaller than u would want Feb 15 05:15:40 yeah but it's a nice price Feb 15 05:15:47 2.8 inches Feb 15 05:16:28 other apps besides media playing Feb 15 05:16:33 and android blows chunks Feb 15 05:18:19 hmmm n900 then a tablet to replace the netbook for coontent you actualy have to read Feb 15 05:18:37 yes!! Feb 15 05:18:43 richardcnkln: back in the day they were new, $800 was pretty reasonable for a Zaurus :P Feb 15 05:18:55 but finding a decent OS for the tablet is tricky Feb 15 05:19:10 lofty306: integrated projector <.< Feb 15 05:19:32 the N900 really needs a bigger battery though Feb 15 05:19:39 hehe Feb 15 05:20:08 i just turn off 3g whem im not actually using it and the batt is thee for days Feb 15 05:20:38 lofty306: me too, but that drastically kills usefulness Feb 15 05:20:51 not in my pocket Feb 15 05:20:53 half the point is to be on IM 24/7 anywhere Feb 15 05:21:02 heh Feb 15 05:21:21 Mapper + GPS + GSM only seems to last less then 12 hours on a charge Feb 15 05:21:23 it ended for me when it kept waking me up at all hours Feb 15 05:22:55 what are the internal specs for the n900? Feb 15 05:23:07 ive only got a lowly n800 Feb 15 05:23:48 well when they have induction chargers everywhere adn everything charges that way or they extend the range of induction charging we'' be set Feb 15 05:24:00 we'll Feb 15 05:24:36 induction charging is so innefficient Feb 15 05:24:37 http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ Feb 15 05:24:50 better for cooking Feb 15 05:25:03 nichola tesla already had it down in the early 1900's Feb 15 05:25:11 better to have dedicated charger ports Feb 15 05:25:39 one of thease days i'll drop my sisters isomething on the induction cooktop and see if it explodess Feb 15 05:26:06 its realy old tech Feb 15 05:26:43 haha Feb 15 05:27:00 [00:24] http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ Feb 15 05:27:01 or prehaps refillable direct ethanol fuel cells Feb 15 05:27:08 maemo.nokia.com still exists? Feb 15 05:27:13 after all these years Feb 15 05:27:19 that's comical Feb 15 05:27:47 i thought so when it popped up first for specs Feb 15 05:28:13 more money went into maemo.nokia.com than any advertising for the n900 at all Feb 15 05:28:33 thought it was comical i mean Feb 15 05:28:59 ds3: i agree, i was a heavy user and went through 2-3 batteries a day Feb 15 05:29:12 yeah nokia dont seem to advertise too much anything Feb 15 05:29:47 i go through the n900 in a few hours it lives on the charger at work Feb 15 05:29:55 and it really looks like there was space for a bp-4l with 1500mAh Feb 15 05:29:58 honestly they could have made a commercial with penguins shooting lasers from their eyes Feb 15 05:30:07 and just showed the N900 at the very last second Feb 15 05:30:08 pupnik: I tried out a Borohydride cell this weekend and it was disappointing for the volume Feb 15 05:30:08 ds3: lol? GSM alone lasts only 4 hours at best Feb 15 05:30:08 add GPS and you're probably down to 1-2 hours Feb 15 05:30:13 i would have bought it in an instant Feb 15 05:30:24 luke-jr: I keep the screen off. Feb 15 05:30:25 hah Feb 15 05:30:32 ds3: so do I Feb 15 05:30:43 ass do i Feb 15 05:30:56 Sazpaimon: of course, everyone would buy one if Nokia spent more money false advertising Feb 15 05:31:33 do you think a 4-row keyboard would have made it too top-heavy? Feb 15 05:31:39 actually, N900 would probably be considered awesome by the average idiot, if it worked like it claimed Feb 15 05:31:40 luke-jr: I guess I shouldn't complain too much. I was logging a multiday train trip and was seeing about 10-12 hours Feb 15 05:31:44 hmm its about to die only using it like 7h today no calls Feb 15 05:31:44 despite being non-free Feb 15 05:31:57 cool, I found code for maemosec* libraries Feb 15 05:32:24 the mechanics are so top-notch... slide mechanism never seems to wear out Feb 15 05:32:32 luke-jr, the average idiot would hate the n900 Feb 15 05:32:47 since it was built around power users like you and I Feb 15 05:32:53 it needs a DPAD Feb 15 05:32:57 it would be not shiny ensfgh for them Feb 15 05:32:59 Sazpaimon: and the dedicated nerd hates it too. yet people like it, supposedly Feb 15 05:33:07 enough* Feb 15 05:33:11 what would be nice to see is getting Maemo running on the Motorola Droid HW Feb 15 05:33:18 it should be pretty close HW wise Feb 15 05:33:26 i haven't missed a dpad at all Feb 15 05:33:26 ds3: LOL, hw is the *only* thing I care about Feb 15 05:33:42 ds3: I have a game gripper for mine, works OK Feb 15 05:33:44 ds3: anyhow, keep dreaming Feb 15 05:33:51 why has nobody bothered porting maemo to other devices? is it because the UI is closed? Feb 15 05:33:52 pupnik: what software do you mostly run on the N900? Feb 15 05:33:58 Sazpaimon: because Maemo is not open source Feb 15 05:34:05 too much to list Feb 15 05:34:12 ds3: http://meegoarena.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/n900snes.jpg Feb 15 05:34:15 luke-jr: a nice GSM droid hw w/Maemo UI should work quite nicely Feb 15 05:34:15 i thought maemo had a code repository Feb 15 05:34:19 what do you use a dpad for ds3 ? Feb 15 05:34:38 Sazpaimon: 45% of it is free software. I wonder what % of Mac OS X is free? Feb 15 05:34:41 pupnik: Mapper uses it quite nicely Feb 15 05:34:49 the 4-way arrow keys work fine for me Feb 15 05:35:08 pupnik: I want the arrows to be exposed with the kb closed Feb 15 05:35:43 lol Feb 15 05:35:46 luke-jr, I was under the impression that the OS itself was open, my mistake Feb 15 05:35:50 pupnik: I have it in a mount in a vehicle Feb 15 05:35:55 Good luck getting Maemo or MeeGo running on the Motorola Milestone Feb 15 05:36:05 They havent even gotten a kernel to boot except maybe via kexec Feb 15 05:36:10 thanks to the bootloader locks Feb 15 05:36:13 Sazpaimon: MeeGo was "supposed" to fix that. Feb 15 05:36:21 krayon: who makes that? Feb 15 05:36:34 Motorola are one of the least open cellphone companies Feb 15 05:36:57 jonwil: get a Linux developer to sue :p Feb 15 05:37:04 early Droids were relatively unlocked Feb 15 05:37:09 it was haard to even get source outta motorola when they had to release it Feb 15 05:37:14 kernel is GPLv2 Feb 15 05:37:18 luke-jr, MeeGo DOES fix that alread i believe. The majority of the core code is open Feb 15 05:37:28 so they dont have to let you use new kernels Feb 15 05:37:38 jonwil: GPLv2 defines "source code" such that it includes signing keys. GPLv3 adds an exception for non-required keys Feb 15 05:37:58 therefore, if they don't release the signing key, it's infringement Feb 15 05:38:33 I'm sure nokia's UX would have been closed source anyway Feb 15 05:38:36 ds3: Some guy. I purchased it from his Google store... sadly there's a flash website now ( http://www.game-gripper.com/ ) but the old store is still available ( http://sites.google.com/site/gamegripper/ ) Feb 15 05:39:16 ds3: Not bad for $15 US. Feb 15 05:39:17 ds3: you know what might be better for such stuff - one of those track-sensors on the face - takes up no space and isn't visually obtrusive Feb 15 05:39:30 ds3: But still has to have the keyboard open so no good for you if you want it shut :P Feb 15 05:39:50 so how come we haven't seen kernel devs going after people to get signing keys and unlocked hardware? Feb 15 05:41:35 Krayon: oh, it is mechanical, not electrical interface? Feb 15 05:42:05 ds3: Yeah it fits over the keys and presses them :/ Feb 15 05:42:06 pupnik: there is the front camera Feb 15 05:42:22 ds3: Having said that, any of the cheap bluetooth keyboards on ebay could be used. Feb 15 05:42:26 as of right now there are 9 bits of closed source code in meego-on-n900 Feb 15 05:43:02 ds3: There's some pretty cheap teeny tiny ones. Feb 15 05:43:04 krayon: that's another thing to charge Feb 15 05:43:14 I have a tiny one from the 800 days Feb 15 05:43:17 make that 10 or so Feb 15 05:43:24 bme,libbmeipc,libcal,some pulseaudio bits,sysinfod,the sgx drivers,wifi firmware,bluetooth firmware,wl1251-cal plus the cellmo firmware Feb 15 05:43:51 there is more that will likely appear before the meego-on-n900 work is finished though Feb 15 05:43:53 like GPS Feb 15 05:43:56 and camera Feb 15 05:44:47 I remember reading yesterday that someone got GPS working under MeeGo Feb 15 05:46:11 I know Nokia have said they are simply going to port the Maemo GPS stack to MeeGo (which would then remain closed source) as the easiest way to get GPS up and running Feb 15 05:46:14 with the least amount of work Feb 15 05:46:38 they may also have legitimate reasons to want to keep GPS closed (specifically the stuff to do with AGPS and talking to the noika AGPS server) Feb 15 05:47:16 I don't think its specific within nokia Feb 15 05:47:19 for apgps Feb 15 05:47:19 geez Feb 15 05:47:27 because you can replace the server with googles one Feb 15 05:48:10 jonwil: the same reason kernel devs are too scared to go after nvidia Feb 15 05:48:17 jonwil: they're cowards :P Feb 15 05:49:04 jonwil: I reverse engineered the N900 GPS stuff a long time ago Feb 15 05:49:23 not AGPS Feb 15 05:49:26 also, there is no such thing as a legitimate reason to keep stuff closed Feb 15 05:49:39 N900 AGPS was just this year released in public docs ☺ Feb 15 05:49:50 what public docs? Feb 15 05:50:45 dunno, ask in #meego-arm Feb 15 05:58:32 ok, it's late and i'm tired... someone sanity check this for me: int x=0; x^=1; x == 1 then x^=1; x==0;? Feb 15 06:33:31 jonwil: nokia agps servers are standard agps servers Feb 15 06:33:38 ok Feb 15 06:33:40 jonwil: just delivering quick fix data over http i believe Feb 15 06:33:50 nothing fancy Feb 15 06:34:37 ieatlint: what? Feb 15 06:35:54 to toggle x between 0 and 1... int xor 1 can be used right? Feb 15 06:35:59 yes Feb 15 06:36:14 but it will only work if you know previous value of 0 Feb 15 06:36:15 x Feb 15 06:36:40 x = !x, no? :) Feb 15 06:37:05 yeah, x = !x works, but it's logical Feb 15 06:37:21 and apparently java gets very upset with me for trying to do a logical not operation on a char Feb 15 06:37:41 (and yes, there is a good reason i'm using a char and not a boolean) Feb 15 06:37:54 try unsigned char Feb 15 06:38:11 jacekowski: he said java. no unsigned types there Feb 15 06:38:27 "The operator ! is undefined for the argument type(s) char" Feb 15 06:38:32 yeah Feb 15 06:38:36 i feel dirty Feb 15 06:38:39 java bad Feb 15 06:40:11 ieatlint: x = ( x == 0 ) ? 1 : 0 Feb 15 06:40:23 and add a cast if required Feb 15 06:41:10 yeah, that's another option, but without being an over-optimisation weenie, that method still has the issue that my referencing of the char array is 2 math operations Feb 15 06:41:15 slono: x=!x; will do Feb 15 06:41:29 RST38h: java, x is a char Feb 15 06:41:32 repeating those in order to do the tests is bleh, especially when memory serves me that an xor can handle it Feb 15 06:41:35 ah shit Feb 15 06:41:39 java... Feb 15 06:41:43 yeah :( Feb 15 06:41:45 java :( Feb 15 06:42:10 ieatlint: "that method still has the issue that my referencing of the char array is 2 math operations" wut? Feb 15 06:43:16 slonopotamus: bitStream[ ( i + x ) - offset ] Feb 15 06:43:33 repeating that to do the test... eh.. if there's a better way, i'll go with it Feb 15 06:43:53 ieatlint: those who care about performance, do not use java :) Feb 15 06:44:24 indeed... and there's a reason i've never touched java before yesterday Feb 15 06:44:35 ieatlint: and don't forget about premature optimization Feb 15 06:44:56 yeah, that was my comment about being an over-optimisation weenie... Feb 15 06:46:05 ieatlint: however, java has JIT that is capable of doing nice optimization tricks. so just write your code :) Feb 15 06:46:37 i'm a c guy.. that is how i normally write code :P Feb 15 07:25:08 https://picasaweb.google.com/meetmeego/MobileWorldCongress2011# Feb 15 07:25:13 very cool Feb 15 07:25:23 Thank god there is still intel Feb 15 07:26:57 heh, we'll see... the meego conference is supposed to be in about 3 months, and the registration and cfp have been pushed back again... if they cancel the conference, meego is dead... if they don't... well, we'll see Feb 15 07:27:46 morning Feb 15 07:29:48 pressing story Feb 15 07:29:58 bleh, damnit Feb 15 07:30:07 stupid touchpad clicking Feb 15 07:49:14 I have made a backup using the backup app in N900 and the file is 13mb -only- . I have around 700 contacts and loads of sms, is this size correct or is the backup missing something? Feb 15 07:57:20 smhar, well did you check all the options? Feb 15 07:57:42 also 700 contacts and smses that are limited to 180 chars doesn't really seem that odd Feb 15 07:59:01 ruskie, yes, I checked all the options. I am planning to upgrade to PR1.3 and I want to make sure I have a full backup, just in case. I am note sure if the Backup app covers everything Feb 15 07:59:25 depends on what you mean by everything ;) Feb 15 08:00:41 I do not know, I am copying all the ebooks manually, what else? will copying /home cover all? Feb 15 08:04:10 hmm... /home/user should... but watch out for MyDocs that is huge... Feb 15 08:04:25 the stuff in /home/opt should be encoded for reinstall in case of issues Feb 15 08:05:11 erm... by that I meant the backup should have covered it Feb 15 08:43:12 BUUUUUY! Feb 15 08:43:15 :-D Feb 15 08:43:48 SEEELLL Feb 15 08:44:40 hehe Feb 15 08:45:40 huh? Feb 15 08:46:14 NOK swtock? Feb 15 08:46:15 if you want to buy-and-hold for 10 years this wouldn't be a bad time Feb 15 08:46:26 the stock is racing? Feb 15 08:47:29 took about 10 years for apple to capitalize on NeXT's tech Feb 15 08:48:40 pupnik: things should move a lot quicker nowadays? :) Feb 15 08:50:11 took about 3h for NOK to gain 10ct Feb 15 08:50:21 hmm Feb 15 08:50:30 might get the motorola atrix Feb 15 08:50:36 i'm not saying then=now, but that a recovery can take that long Feb 15 08:50:38 but android sucks :/ Feb 15 08:50:51 MohammadAG: true that Feb 15 08:51:05 since I moved to android there is no end to the suffering :-/ Feb 15 08:51:26 specs are nice though Feb 15 08:51:38 would be cool to get debian and hildon-desktop on it Feb 15 08:51:53 it doesn't seem very fun to me Feb 15 08:52:18 well that's the point Feb 15 08:52:19 you can do some things as non-root but not so much Feb 15 08:52:37 wouldn't meego had been run on the snapdragon eventually anyhow? Feb 15 08:52:43 error: qbluetoothserviceinfo.h: No such file or directory uhh Feb 15 08:52:55 it's a snapdragon? Feb 15 08:53:02 ehr no it is not, sorry :) Feb 15 08:53:02 MeeGo should run on anything Feb 15 08:53:20 whether MeeGo succeeds or fails is up to intel, and the community Feb 15 08:53:22 who has played with steelrat? Feb 15 08:53:49 MohammadAG: Does intel have a vested interest to make it work on !x86? :-S Feb 15 08:53:59 no Feb 15 08:54:43 does Qt Mobility 1.2 on the N900 include the connectivity API? Feb 15 08:54:46 is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware#N900 updated enough that I can use to upgrade my N900 to PR1.3? Feb 15 08:56:14 MohammadAG: should do. Feb 15 08:56:30 then I either messed up, or it doesn't :/ Feb 15 08:57:04 Hrm, no, no packages in -devel :/ Feb 15 08:57:08 http://nokiaplanb.com/ Feb 15 08:57:24 I'd expect to see qtm-12-connectivity Feb 15 08:57:36 Maybe ping the author MohammadAG? Feb 15 08:57:45 Maintainer should I say Feb 15 08:57:49 <_berto_> frals: http://nokiaplanc.com/ Feb 15 08:57:53 ~seen achipa Feb 15 08:57:59 achipa <~attila@Maemo/community/council/achipa> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 17h 50m 48s ago, saying: 'it's like saying a swiss army knife is crappy because the tools are small...'. Feb 15 09:02:07 sounds quite reasonable Feb 15 09:04:20 Yes, I agree Feb 15 09:04:33 shame there is not more Feb 15 09:04:37 "likes" Feb 15 09:05:17 who is creating nokiapland w/ a pic of wellingtons? :) Feb 15 09:06:07 Heh Feb 15 09:12:27 for sale: n900, only washed onced, oc'd ever since, send offers.. learning java.. ugh.. Feb 15 09:12:37 rofl Feb 15 09:14:08 I'll bid USD0.99, at free shipping only Feb 15 09:15:13 smhar: yes Feb 15 09:17:47 DocScrutinizer: if you pick it up in italy it's yours Feb 15 09:18:27 where? Feb 15 09:19:12 lol, nah, i think i'm giving it to a mate who has no money, i'll teach him how to make sip calls on it when i get a nexus.. Feb 15 09:19:16 sorry for yanking your chain Feb 15 09:19:22 or, make that 0.99 plus I pay for surface delivery via DHL Feb 15 09:21:28 yo javispedro Feb 15 09:24:25 moo jacekowski Feb 15 09:24:32 you as well Feb 15 09:24:36 you as well Feb 15 09:24:45 meant moo javispedro Feb 15 09:25:19 Morning, all Feb 15 09:25:43 morning Feb 15 09:25:46 lo Jaffa Feb 15 09:31:32 * jonwil doubts he will ever be able to figure out all the closed APIs required to support cell broadcast on Maemo :( Feb 15 09:31:56 * jonwil doubts Nokia is going to provide libisi-dev, libisi-glib-dev or csd-plugin-dev (or anything else) either :( Feb 15 09:35:46 ~seen Nemno Feb 15 09:35:52 lardman: i haven't seen 'nemno' Feb 15 09:36:02 hmm Feb 15 09:36:06 thanks infobot Feb 15 09:36:06 lardman: bitte Feb 15 09:36:20 infobot: vielen dank Feb 15 09:38:42 bbiab Feb 15 09:49:02 my clock is not accurate, 13 Minutes difference - even there is checked Option "update automatically" and there si active connection to internet over Wifi. Is there something missing? ...I tried to find something like "ntp" in package manager - and there is only OpenNTPD daemon. Must it be installed? Feb 15 09:49:31 running ntpd on the phone might not be the best idea Feb 15 09:49:47 rather an hourly activation of ntpdate (with drift support) might do the trick Feb 15 09:50:02 however, the clock seems to synchronize to the 3g network for me, so I personally don't have a problem (on n900) Feb 15 09:51:10 flux, I have had problems with ntpd in the past on desktops as well Feb 15 09:51:18 ntpdate always works :) Feb 15 09:53:16 are there some settings for synchronizing of time? There is only one checkbox in Time settings. An it does not work probably. Feb 15 09:55:02 on my debian box is installed "NTP" and it makes automatically synchronizing. Feb 15 09:55:10 the blackberry guys know how to party Feb 15 09:55:29 they have a global system switch for selecting wheter games/apps pause in the background Feb 15 09:57:13 lol, the only "related" companies going up after Nokias suicide try is Google and Apple, ... Feb 15 09:57:32 yacc: Wait a bit, too ealry to tell Feb 15 09:58:22 RST38h, what's to wait, it's kind like Mercedes would decide stop selling their own cars, and start to license car designs from Opel, ... Feb 15 09:58:33 Morning ! Feb 15 09:59:21 yacc: in fact not really : opel have already a good market share and good products Feb 15 09:59:44 Khertan, ok, replace that with Kia or Hyundai? Or Lada? Feb 15 10:00:23 wait what did Nokia just do? Feb 15 10:00:48 markinfo: that automatic update uses gsm data Feb 15 10:00:55 RST38h, Phone7 is not exactly a great product that can compete with Android or iOS, ... Feb 15 10:00:56 markinfo: and not a lot of providers are sending it Feb 15 10:01:01 yacc: it is Feb 15 10:01:07 yacc: it's a lot better than android Feb 15 10:01:14 yacc: it s more like mercedes decide to stop making car, and decide to licence Velam Car Feb 15 10:01:43 lofty306, they decided more or less to ditch Symbian and go with Microsoft Phone as their future, ... Feb 15 10:01:48 yacc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VELAM Feb 15 10:02:00 well, symbian has bad marketing and as that is not recoverable platform Feb 15 10:02:14 yacc, old news Feb 15 10:02:16 wp7 has quite good marketing Feb 15 10:02:26 jacekowski: but meego is a good plateform Feb 15 10:02:27 and is way better than android Feb 15 10:02:32 jacekowski: hum ... hum Feb 15 10:02:33 Khertan: not finished yet Feb 15 10:02:33 Well, it may still end up with a miracle Feb 15 10:02:37 jacekowski, well, they are on the middle on hardware uniformity between Apple and Google, and the hardware specs they force on manufacturer are great, compared with a T-Mobile G1 :-P Feb 15 10:02:43 jacekowski: near finished ... Feb 15 10:02:45 thought they did something else along the same lines Feb 15 10:02:50 jacekowski: wp7 isn't finished too Feb 15 10:02:51 But user-experience-wise, WP7 is a lemon. Not sure how marketing can fix that. Feb 15 10:02:56 jacekowski, well - it explain that - really even with other simple phone was time by this provider not actualised. Feb 15 10:03:02 Khertan: well, some people claim that meego will never be finished Feb 15 10:03:07 jacekowski, compared with a Galaxy SII i9000 or an iPhone 4, not so much. Feb 15 10:03:35 yacc: there is nothing wrong with having fast cpu Feb 15 10:03:38 jacekowski: and from a marketing point of view ... hum ... symbian is still see better than wp7 Feb 15 10:03:55 Khertan: i wouldn't be so sure about it Feb 15 10:04:09 and symbian is hard for developers Feb 15 10:04:15 and developers are lazy Feb 15 10:04:22 so they prefer java android Feb 15 10:04:31 or c#/.net wp7 Feb 15 10:04:41 virtually all of the mwc tablets are the fscking same. Feb 15 10:04:47 jacekowski, not sure if you noticed, MS development process basically forces the Phone7 manufacturers in using yesteryear hardware specs, guess top-of-the-line Symbian hardware will have to be downgraded to be allowed to run Phone7, ... Feb 15 10:05:08 hahaha Feb 15 10:05:15 yacc: well, 1Ghz cpu and 512M of ram as minimum Feb 15 10:05:18 or rehashed in a yeear or2 Feb 15 10:05:20 yacc: that isn't really last year Feb 15 10:05:21 even if theyre not android clones, I would have a hard time telling each os from the other, even with a short video. Feb 15 10:05:33 mwc/ Feb 15 10:05:34 wwith a new skin on it Feb 15 10:05:36 ? Feb 15 10:05:47 The atrix still kicks their ass Feb 15 10:05:49 you mean htc? Feb 15 10:06:26 dual core 1GHz - some review video said that's 2GHz ... - and 1GB RAM Feb 15 10:06:39 slap MeeGo on it, or better yet, debian with hildon and it's a win Feb 15 10:06:54 jacekowski: wp7 is a mix between the worst part of iOs with the worst part of Android Feb 15 10:07:00 jacekowski: closed as iOS Feb 15 10:07:00 jacekowski, considering that Tegra2 offers 1GHz cores and is the standard for top of the line non Phone equipment, ... Feb 15 10:07:05 Khertan: bs Feb 15 10:07:06 no multitasking Feb 15 10:07:11 Khertan: it's more open than ios Feb 15 10:07:17 Khertan: whole .net library is open Feb 15 10:07:22 Bouarf ! Feb 15 10:07:31 Khertan: you are free to develop on windows/linux/anything Feb 15 10:07:35 so the only possibiliy to update time (if the provider does not give it) is to install NTP Daemon? Does it not stress accu? Feb 15 10:07:37 jacekowski: cocoa is also open if you consider .net open Feb 15 10:07:37 not just on macshit Feb 15 10:07:39 jacekowski, so how do you install non-MS-approved apps on it? Feb 15 10:07:57 jacekowski: you can't develop seriously on linux Feb 15 10:07:59 markinfo, you can also run periodically ntpdate. Feb 15 10:08:22 tackat: same way as on iphone Feb 15 10:09:09 "ntpdate: not found" ...can I log in terminal as root? Feb 15 10:09:22 yes Feb 15 10:09:24 sudo gainroot Feb 15 10:09:32 you just need gainroot or rootsh package before that Feb 15 10:09:49 jacekowski, let me summarize, the non-technical journalist that reiterate usually press releases are atypically sober on this Nokia crazyness, normally one would expect a firework of positive comments on anything MS related, ... Feb 15 10:11:06 i'm just saying that it's not a bad move nokia made Feb 15 10:11:19 as in they could have done worse Feb 15 10:11:22 like went android way Feb 15 10:11:35 jacekowski: i m not sure android will be worst move Feb 15 10:11:47 jacekowski: and i think the wp move was the worst Feb 15 10:11:57 jacekowski, yeah right, Elop could have gone around himself mining all Nokia property and then pressed the button to vaporize it himself? Feb 15 10:11:57 if there is no command ntpdate? even as root? Feb 15 10:11:59 Android could have been better Feb 15 10:12:04 jacekowski: at least on android they could promote qt Feb 15 10:12:09 shrug I agree w/ the assesment ellop made; nokia + android == bland... Feb 15 10:12:41 Khertan: then it wouldn't be android anymore Feb 15 10:12:41 Khertan: they can do qt on wp7 as well Feb 15 10:12:41 nokia should've stuck w/ meego. Feb 15 10:12:41 * javispedro also thinks "yet another android cloner" would have been suicidal Feb 15 10:12:42 As it provides better user experience than WP7, it is more feature complete, and you can also wrap your own features around Android's core set Feb 15 10:12:42 markinfo: sudo gainroot then apt-get install openntp Feb 15 10:12:48 Finland used to be all about guts... finns have courage. Feb 15 10:12:54 javispedro: Depends on what you do with it Feb 15 10:12:59 jacekowski, Android would have allowed Nokia at least to keep some identity and to allow it to be customized to some extend. WP makes Nokia just one in a list of hardware sweatshops, ... Feb 15 10:13:00 They've shown now that they don't have that anymore Feb 15 10:13:03 javispedro: but they will not ... this is what they said : use win tools Feb 15 10:13:07 * dneary wonders when people will stop post-morteming the decision & start looking to what happens next Feb 15 10:13:16 javispedro: For example, you can quickly host it inside Meego, release it, then add non-Android features around it Feb 15 10:13:24 yacc: not really Feb 15 10:13:26 dneary: Give it another 3 months. Feb 15 10:13:27 yacc: nokia can modify it Feb 15 10:13:31 Khertan, "OpeNTPD"? - this has Programmmanager found Feb 15 10:13:34 yacc: then can add qt if they want to Feb 15 10:13:39 dneary: We're all stuck in PTS man, don't ruin oiur buzz ;) Feb 15 10:13:41 dneary: wait for summer Feb 15 10:13:43 yacc: but that would mean creating something incomaptible Feb 15 10:13:47 jacekowski, they already said that they are not allowed that, ... Feb 15 10:13:49 next that happens is dead, past times are more fun. Feb 15 10:13:50 javispedro: With Android, you still kinda control your destiny to a certain degree. WP7 is more along the lines of shutting up and bending over. Feb 15 10:13:55 dneary: when an other manufacturer will sell meego handset device :) Feb 15 10:14:14 yacc: no, they said they can do it, but they won't Feb 15 10:14:15 RST38h: had they gone Android, they would have had most of the backlash but without lech media ado. Feb 15 10:14:44 javispedro: Dunno, I am not looking at the PR side of the story Feb 15 10:14:59 RST38h: I dunno... given that MS's own WP7 handsets were massive failures, Nokia probably has sufficient leverage to control future direction of the platform. Feb 15 10:15:04 javispedro: Only at the technical side, i.e. "can you differentiate yourself inside android ecosystem" Feb 15 10:15:19 Anyway, talking to local Nokia people they all seem slightly in shock, and not a good shock, ... Feb 15 10:15:21 derf: See previous examples of companies partnering with MWS Feb 15 10:15:24 RST38h: yes, but then you create incompatible platform Feb 15 10:15:26 MS Feb 15 10:15:28 dneary: nokia push for Qt, and now abandon dev for their future device ... it s a bit normal that we are angry Feb 15 10:15:31 RST38h: Yes, I read that article, too. Feb 15 10:15:33 RST38h: and you are in a shit again Feb 15 10:15:34 jacek: you do not Feb 15 10:15:53 derf: Also check out what WP7 development is like Feb 15 10:15:59 I'd rather not, thanks. Feb 15 10:16:20 derf: Hint: it is C# only, on top of a cut-down WinCE with multitasking mostly disabled Feb 15 10:16:42 That's still gotta be better than Apple and Objective C and all that crap. Feb 15 10:17:01 In the meantime my solution will be "sudo mv /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome-hidden; su -c "at '050111 00:00' \n mv /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome-hidden /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome^D" Feb 15 10:17:02 derf: Apples is actually not that bad, just weird and comes with a toilet plunger from behind Feb 15 10:17:04 derf: you mean worse ? Feb 15 10:17:04 RST38h: do not understimate the number of MS.NET-only shops Feb 15 10:17:12 Khertan, Sure it is Feb 15 10:17:16 RST38h: c# is better than objC Feb 15 10:17:28 javispedro: Yes, but what you can do with a lemon like this? Technically? Feb 15 10:17:29 Khertan, It's just against my nature to lose sleep about stuff that's done & dusted Feb 15 10:17:30 RST38h: it's better platform than first ios was Feb 15 10:17:42 RST38h: around the number of java crazies, and probably way more than people that even KNOW what objc is. Feb 15 10:17:45 jacekowski, but you don't, Android is incredibly "compatible" even if you patch it around for different functionality, in practice there are very very few apps that do not run on an Archos tablet from the Market, and these involve 95% or so missing hardware (no point in a SMS app for hardware without a mobile part, Navigation dislikes the fact that we've got no GPS, and so on), and only a tiny bit has problems with the big screen or the fact that Archos viol Feb 15 10:17:46 ates Googles guidelines by changing screenresolution on the fly, ... Feb 15 10:17:49 Khertan, So my instinct is always to absorb the news & say "OK, what now?" Feb 15 10:17:52 jacekowski: If only this was 2007. Feb 15 10:18:11 javispedro: Well, yes, lots of java "programmers". So, following your logic, we should have wonderful MIDP apps nowadays Feb 15 10:18:19 RST38h: nothing, but that worked well for apple :D Feb 15 10:18:24 dneary: but this announce made too many changes from me ... Feb 15 10:18:26 If going backwards was a possibility, I'd be all for it, but it seems unrealistic (and, frankly, suicidal for NOK in the marketplace) to reverse strategy now Feb 15 10:18:33 jacekowski, all the bloggers decrying Androids fragmentation, sorry don't see it day-to-day, ... Feb 15 10:18:35 javispedro: But check what MIDP apps ae available and you will see that the miracle just isn't there. Feb 15 10:18:36 I mounted my N900 in mass storage mode and copied all important data to PC, now I want to copy /home too. I have ssh installed but I can not get an IP when starting in in N900 Feb 15 10:18:53 dneary: i was applying for a job position which is now close about applications developpment for meego Feb 15 10:18:56 MIDP is a cut down version of java with almost no capabilities Feb 15 10:19:02 So... the choices are: make MeeGo with a NOK involvement at ~40% of present a success, or drop participation in MeeGo Feb 15 10:19:06 jacekowski, furthermore, consider "firmware" updates => ever watched how long it took T-Mobile to approve a new Nokia Symbian firmware, ... Feb 15 10:19:14 there is only: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/openntpd/ ...but even with ths there is no command "ntpdate" Feb 15 10:19:16 (at the individual level those are my choices) Feb 15 10:19:26 jacekowski; Well, the full java does not run on a resource constrained device! Same applies to C# .NET Feb 15 10:19:28 yacc: well, like i care what t-mobile thinks Feb 15 10:19:35 yacc: i just flash it with firmware i download Feb 15 10:19:37 RST38h: well all I see on TV are MIDP useless widgets. Feb 15 10:19:37 dneary: so now i need to study an other plateform if want to try to be employed to do mobile app developpment Feb 15 10:19:40 yacc: not with branded stuff Feb 15 10:19:51 javispedro: Exactly Feb 15 10:20:01 RST38h: android is mostly java Feb 15 10:20:08 RST38h: and everybody is happy withit Feb 15 10:20:16 Khertan, See, you're getting the hang of it :) Feb 15 10:20:17 java is apparently most popular programming lanugage now Feb 15 10:20:28 which is part of android success Feb 15 10:20:31 javispedro: Because no matter how many developers you have and no matter how much enthusiasm and money, if your base platform is sufficiently broken/maimed, they won't do a thing for you Feb 15 10:20:46 Khertan, *if* your goal was making a living out of app development, *then* MeeGo is a non-starter for you now, and I would move to Android straight away Feb 15 10:20:55 javispedro: Same Google is finding this out just about now, which makes them work on the NDK Feb 15 10:20:55 jacekowski, no, I mean, one of the common complaints is that Android devices get stuck at an old Android version, => that's simply only a half-truth => yes some are stuck if you do not use unofficial images => but then, before Android/iOS that was the norm, nobody even expected that a Symbian handset would upgrade to next release of a handset, ... Feb 15 10:21:04 Khertan, In fact, I'd ask you what you were doing on MeeGo in the first place, to be honest Feb 15 10:21:05 dneary: as i didn't know anymore any companies which will do meego app dev (near paris) ... i'm currently looking at other plateform and start learning Android Feb 15 10:21:30 javispedro: I am sure Android's top cheeses absolutely hate the NDK, it is so ugly and not what they want, but develoers require it Feb 15 10:22:02 If you're banking on the next new edgy platform that will build up a nice niche, I'd be tempted to concentrate on HTML5 and Javascript, learn Node.js and target both Android & WebOS Feb 15 10:22:07 dneary: a company that would like to have app ported from iOS and Android ready when the first MeeGo device appear Feb 15 10:22:38 javascript has performance issues Feb 15 10:23:09 It's gotten a lot better in the past year. Feb 15 10:23:09 jacekowski: look at QtQuick it s javascript ... and it s didn't have performance issues Feb 15 10:23:44 try doing full screen 3d game in javascript Feb 15 10:24:17 With WebGL, that is very feasible. Feb 15 10:24:21 WebGL. Feb 15 10:24:23 try it Feb 15 10:24:33 jacekowski <== obviously has never tried it Feb 15 10:24:38 i've tried it Feb 15 10:24:38 The most serious limitation right now is the GC. Feb 15 10:24:47 it's slower than native code Feb 15 10:24:54 Which is why you want native development environment Feb 15 10:24:58 something like 3-4x slower at least Feb 15 10:25:03 rst38h: but that's what I guess will happen on wp7. c# for the masses, and eventually ms will do something for native. Feb 15 10:25:11 BUT, the fun part is, Android provides you with NDK. WP7 does not. Feb 15 10:25:27 javispedro: The keyword is "eventually". You do not know. Feb 15 10:25:30 fun part is that c# and .net was designed to be JITed at runtime Feb 15 10:25:44 java never was designed for that Feb 15 10:25:47 Oh, not the JIT argument again... Feb 15 10:26:09 what is the name of package with "ntpdate" program? Feb 15 10:26:12 Android comes with a JIT nowadays. Java has had JITs for years, people defended dissertations on Java JITs Feb 15 10:26:17 jacekowski, naturally it's slower than native code, but so what. Current hardware is usually way over the requirements of the users anyway, for PCs that's a given, and for mobile devices it is starting to be so too, ... Feb 15 10:26:18 yes Feb 15 10:26:25 but java JIT is slower than .net JIT Feb 15 10:26:30 The problem is, you are still losing performance, even with a JIT Feb 15 10:26:36 yacc: not for games Feb 15 10:26:44 jacekowski: And you, of course, compared? On an ARM device? Feb 15 10:26:46 yacc: where having 20% more matters Feb 15 10:26:51 RST38h: yes Feb 15 10:26:55 Got the numbers? Feb 15 10:27:06 jacekowski: did you know there isn't any better language, just some more suitable for some purpose ? Feb 15 10:27:14 there is Feb 15 10:27:16 C is better Feb 15 10:27:39 jacekowski, yes, for most games too, if it's not a top-of-the line FPS, my wife has been playing quite a number of months 90% or so of the newest Adventures (she is an Adventure addict) on a PC without dedicated GPU, ... Feb 15 10:27:52 jacekowski, not the bullshit C argument, ... Feb 15 10:27:54 While I certainly agree with you for the things _I_ like to write, I also realize that I am in the minority. Feb 15 10:27:59 jacekowski: mouarf Feb 15 10:28:01 jacekowski, J Feb 15 10:28:05 jacekowski: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/csharp.php Feb 15 10:28:24 C is a terrible language for many things, and for many developers. Feb 15 10:28:35 derf: C++ fixes that, somewhat Feb 15 10:28:38 jacekowski: http://norvig.com/spell-correct.html Feb 15 10:28:39 there is always visual basic Feb 15 10:28:39 * RST38h hides =) Feb 15 10:28:53 jacekowski: 21 line in python // 184 in C Feb 15 10:28:55 Khertan: that's on x86 and comapring mono Feb 15 10:29:07 You mean it makes the language so bad people who shouldn't be using it run and hide? Feb 15 10:29:08 jacekowski, JITs or to be more specific spezialing compilers can even beat C for some code, because it takes the used code paths into account, ... Feb 15 10:29:29 and PyPy is looking good now on the perf front ;-) Feb 15 10:29:45 Using a limited subset of C++ will make your life easier Feb 15 10:29:49 yacc: i very much doubt you can beat clang Feb 15 10:29:56 It is using the whole beast that will kill you Feb 15 10:30:09 Yes, we've had this discussion before. Feb 15 10:30:41 Khertan: 372 lines in java Feb 15 10:30:41 And what you say _might_ be true (if the tools didn't suck so mcuh), until you have project with more than one developer. Feb 15 10:30:52 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php <<< perfectly useless :) Feb 15 10:30:55 Every one of which has a different idea of what part of the language they'd like to use. Feb 15 10:31:29 Khertan: you see C++ won Feb 15 10:31:35 second language after C Feb 15 10:31:50 derf: Then you control your developers well Feb 15 10:31:53 hmm, C won Feb 15 10:31:53 jacekowski, well, actually, it's simple, consider GC => without GC C/C++ forces you to design modules with static ownership relationships => so C/C++ is forced in many cases to copy objects just because it lacks GC. Feb 15 10:31:54 jacekowski: and ? Feb 15 10:32:11 derf: usually, providing them with class declarations and prohibiting from modifying these works Feb 15 10:32:26 Well, I'd tell them to use C, and that would solve that problem. Feb 15 10:32:32 jacekowski: and now in term of development time, stability ? Feb 15 10:32:33 Seems like less work for me. Feb 15 10:32:39 derf: regular scans for "new" keyword with consequent executions also help Feb 15 10:33:01 derf: Nah, they will fuck up your C code too, don't get your hopes too high Feb 15 10:33:01 RST38h, using a minimal subset of C++ is pointless, because you need to know the complete language, the moment you get involved in debugging your app that uses for example STL facilities, e.g. string objects. Feb 15 10:33:23 yacc: Then do not use STL in your app. I am not. Feb 15 10:33:29 Of course they will, but it'll be easier to fix. Feb 15 10:33:44 yacc: I.e. I have no problem debugging apps with STL, but never use this hackish crap myself Feb 15 10:34:06 hi Feb 15 10:34:26 RST38h, so what if some library you need uses STL? And if you don't use STL, you end up with a gazillion of simple classes like strings because each and every library module uses it's own implementation of the concept? Feb 15 10:35:11 I followed the instruction of http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=43420 to install the kernel-power but even if I install the sdk-fiasco-gen package I get: E: Build-Depends dependency for kernel-power cannot be satisfied because the package sdk-fiasco-gen cannot be found Feb 15 10:35:17 any idea of how to solve it' Feb 15 10:35:54 yacc: One more time: If some library I need uses STL, I reconsidering using this library. If I still see I need it, I use it, with STL. Feb 15 10:36:00 RST38h, well, funny is when you watch an University graduate (aka newbie) that can program C++ fine start to debug some memory problem. Ended up with the CTO (which happened to have risen through as a developer) and me (both with more than a decade C/C++ experience) debugging his stuff, because he was that baffled, .. Feb 15 10:36:22 yacc: Not using a language feature DOES NOT mean you should not know of it existance Feb 15 10:36:27 RST38h, no problem, but I consider your argument about using a sane subset of C++ BS ;) Feb 15 10:36:33 yacc: Have I provided a clear explanation? Feb 15 10:37:15 yacc: Yes, people do not know how to debug memory problems. A lot of people are also lazy, so they do not want to know. Feb 15 10:37:20 So yes, you need to have developers that know the complete C++ well, then you can decide on a saner subset for a project. ;) Feb 15 10:37:52 yacc: And yes, the way to prevent this is to regularly scan code for "new"/"malloc" and ask developers to avoid these features Feb 15 10:38:11 yacc: Because in reality, you do not need to use them that much Feb 15 10:38:30 But RAII! Feb 15 10:38:33 RST38h, well, debugging memory problems has gotten so much easier over the years with stuff like valgrind, but yes, it's something that needs experience in my experience ;) Feb 15 10:38:37 yacc: And if you do, the can be encapsulated into asmall bunch of spots Feb 15 10:39:12 yacc: I mean, teaching people to code defensively is not new, so I dunno what you find unusual Feb 15 10:39:53 RST38h, nice try, with a 15 years old code base that uses CORBA, Motif, Qt, (dual event loop), embedded Python, yacc/lex based own languages, and so on, grepping for known problem "texts" like malloc would trigger a complete rewrite of the app, ... Feb 15 10:39:56 dotblank, groove's working again with the latest update, thanks :) Feb 15 10:40:11 yacc: Well, if you have got legacy code, it is a different story Feb 15 10:40:33 yacc: There, you are just trying to get rid of memory allocation as much as possible Feb 15 10:41:43 RST38h, well, the problem is not that it can be done, because it can. C++ is a perfect language for a project with a couple of former student friends that are very good at it. Now take what you get as developers in a commercial setting, and you see that perhaps less than 5% CVs are even worth the bother to do an interview, ... Feb 15 10:42:18 yacc: You really think these remaining 95% will do well in C? Or maybe C#? Feb 15 10:42:21 RST38h, and avoiding dynamic allocation is less than trivial in a event driven GUI app btw, ;) Feb 15 10:43:03 yacc: It is not about the programming language, it is just abut 95% of your CVs being sent by unqualified people, period. Feb 15 10:43:11 RST38h, well, they'll do better in C#/Java because the languages/VMs do protect them from the worst errors (e.g. memory corruption), ... Feb 15 10:43:30 yacc: No, they will still write garbage and you will end up rewriting it. Feb 15 10:43:41 no one? Feb 15 10:43:44 Or supporting it at great pain Feb 15 10:43:48 I think that's harsh :P Feb 15 10:43:59 That's realistic, alterego Feb 15 10:44:11 I suspect both me and yacc have seen it, more than once =( Feb 15 10:44:16 I'm not "qualified" but I don't think I'm a horrendus engineeer :) Feb 15 10:44:27 alterego: Cannot tell. Feb 15 10:44:34 RST38h, possible, but that's the reality of commercial development, btw, the only places with technically good people usually ended with the technical sound parts being killed by management ;) Feb 15 10:44:47 alterego: But many people I had to interview for developer positions just plain can't code. Feb 15 10:45:01 yacc: That too Feb 15 10:45:13 And I've seen some "qualified" engineers that write crap and need to be guided through everything .. Feb 15 10:45:14 alterego, only abill_uk can say if you're a "horrendous" engineer or not Feb 15 10:45:22 Heh Feb 15 10:45:26 alterego: This is what I mean by "can't code" Feb 15 10:45:33 :) Feb 15 10:45:39 RST38h, even people interviewing for a "Senior Python developer" position could not program simple for loops in about 50% of cases. Feb 15 10:45:53 alterego: In a lot of cases you can tutor them, but they have to be able of higher mental activity Feb 15 10:45:55 yacc: ??? Feb 15 10:46:00 RST38h, complicated concepts like "unit tests" where beyond most of them. Feb 15 10:46:11 yacc: a for loop in python ? Feb 15 10:46:12 yacc: I know. Feb 15 10:46:21 yacc: r u kidding ? Feb 15 10:46:54 Khertan, of yes, trust me, the realities of being a freelancer in the IT world, usually called in to fix problems by people to stupid to realize that they have a problem, ... Feb 15 10:46:57 does that mean I can be a senior python programmer? Feb 15 10:47:29 yacc: that's amusing, because I'm I guess not confident enough to ever apply to a "senior" position. Feb 15 10:47:30 yacc: ouch ... it s a base concept ... Feb 15 10:47:35 APTX, well, not exactly, because at that place the python dept head did institute programming tests before the interview ;) Feb 15 10:47:46 And like I said, I like to think I'm a relatively good coder. Feb 15 10:48:17 alterego: It is difficult to say without seeing your code Feb 15 10:48:21 I remember being introduced to a bunch of VCs as a "senior programmer" right out of high school. Feb 15 10:48:23 alterego, not sure how old you are, but after a decade in IT, one usually develops a certain cynic world view, or changes vocation ;) Feb 15 10:48:24 i'm a crappy coder but according to most interview stories i'm more qualified than 90% of professional "coders" Feb 15 10:48:28 Titles like that mean very little. Feb 15 10:48:45 yacc: pretty much 28 yo Feb 15 10:49:11 yacc: got about 6 years professional experience. Feb 15 10:49:52 kerio, lol, but that's quite normal, at my last place they had a software developer that could not manage even the simplest tasks with VBA (like concepts like variables, if/loop statements), and because of local regulations he was in fact unfireable, ... Feb 15 10:50:34 alterego, well, I guess with 6 years experience the cynism about the industry should start to set in, you know the exact time line is slightly individual :-P Feb 15 10:51:04 yacc: well, I'm more cynical about buearocracy. Feb 15 10:51:12 imo a good developer should be able to help other people solve their code problems even in languages they are not particularly familiar with. Feb 15 10:51:15 corporatism and basically management :D Feb 15 10:51:38 anyhow, I'm gonna hit the shower bbiab Feb 15 10:52:18 I've personally noticed that many people (in the general population, and to a slightly lesser extend in the developer population) have problems to understand the concept of nested loops. If they cannot do that, they will be always a failure as a developer, if they can manage that level of abstract understanding, there is hope for at least a mediocrate developer (and you know about one-eyes being king in the land of blind?) Feb 15 10:54:19 in my experience I encounter far too many "developers" whose problem solving skills are the real problem. They don't know how to break the problem down into simple pieces. This applies to not just coding, but networking, sysadmin etc..... Feb 15 10:54:39 i don't get why people apply for that kind of position without actually knowing how to code Feb 15 10:54:49 i mean, how did they get in the industry if they have no idea of what they're doing? Feb 15 10:55:00 yacc: You absolutely have to work for US government shop or a government contractor =) Feb 15 10:55:05 well, nested loops are bad because they tend to make program slower Feb 15 10:55:08 that and the inability to RTFM, astounding. Feb 15 10:55:11 jacekowski: ._. Feb 15 10:55:15 not intrinsically Feb 15 10:55:43 in most cases nested loops can be avoided with something a lot faster Feb 15 10:55:55 saying that, i sometimes use them Feb 15 10:55:56 yacc: (and yes, they actively fire anyone who can actually do something, being able to do work is bad for your career in government :)) Feb 15 10:56:04 Anyway, the reality is that a very nice (in an academic sense) language like C++ (did I mention that the templating part is turing complete), turns out rather bad in many commercial settings, because it's much to sharp tool for the Neanderthals that get to use it in most banks, insurrance companies, military contractors, ... corporate settings, ... Feb 15 10:56:32 Yes, but it is not the only such tool in the store Feb 15 10:56:35 yacc: somebody has to write all these JITs that run java and stuff Feb 15 10:56:54 And you can wreak havoc in Java too, absolutely no problem there Feb 15 10:57:03 RST38h, not being an US citizen, that won't happen to me, but I managed to work in the energy sector in Germany, fascinating, there even the external freelancers are expected to be slow like the cliche about civil servants here around, ... Feb 15 10:57:10 Whoever told you that Java is "safe" was bullshitting you Feb 15 10:57:29 java has pointers Feb 15 10:57:33 RST38h, I said safer, not safe. ;) Feb 15 10:57:34 you can blow shit up with pointers Feb 15 10:57:40 yacc: Not even safer Feb 15 10:57:44 and c++ sucks Feb 15 10:58:09 yacc: Ok, it will not crash right away, it will crash on Wednesday night when it finally exhausts all system memory Feb 15 10:58:32 RST38h: ah .... cycling references ... Feb 15 10:58:34 hum .... Feb 15 10:58:35 :) Feb 15 10:59:17 yacc: And debugging THAT will be harder than malloc/new extermination Feb 15 11:00:10 RST38h, I stand by it, the ugliest items e.g. memory corruption that shows up unreliably at an unrelation point in time later is hard to create in Java (but doable, I mean, any language that allows global state, can have that problem, but in Java you'll probably need explicit assignments to that global state, while in C/C++ these variables can be overwritten by a crazy dangling pointer with no hints at the source code level, ... Feb 15 11:01:04 this reminds me of that guy who wraps his main() in a try ... catch do_nothing(); block and says Feb 15 11:01:07 but there are tools to fix it Feb 15 11:01:19 "there, it does not crash anymore" Feb 15 11:01:23 valgrind for example Feb 15 11:01:28 RST38h, yeah, but then, many programs don't need to keep running till Wednesday, they are killed every day and started fresh the next day ;) => and yes, you can have a memory leak in a GC-ed language. Feb 15 11:01:29 javispedro: that's cool Feb 15 11:01:51 yacc: i was running that sort of program Feb 15 11:02:01 yacc: it had to be restarted at specific time of a day Feb 15 11:02:04 testing cssu on Untouched n900 :) Feb 15 11:02:15 yacc: if you started it later it wouldn't work untill 02:00 next day Feb 15 11:02:28 Well, the nicest things I've seen (and that was in really critically security sensitive code) has been if(*x && x) // work on HP-UX as it has a mapped null page with all zeros in it Feb 15 11:02:41 mece, nice Feb 15 11:02:46 Time to see if I can identify the 2 remaining libisi functions I need to figure out Feb 15 11:04:39 I also loved the thing about assigning booleans into a bitmap, casting the bitmap into an integer, and then comparing that integer with a number of integer values to see if a certain combination of boolean conditions applied. (The developer claimed that this was legacy code, but 3 months later I caught him churning out his own new code with that construct, guess he never understood why that code failed when changing endianess) ;) Feb 15 11:05:42 (eg when "porting" that Ansi-C *cough* program from HP-UX to Linux, ...) Feb 15 11:06:22 javispedro: You can do it without a try*(, just catch proper signals Feb 15 11:06:53 RST38h, well, catching proper signals is not as "portable" as the try catch :-P Feb 15 11:07:02 yacc: Still POSIX though :) Feb 15 11:07:27 yacc: And tell derf about that try/catch thing, I am sure he will be delighted ;) Feb 15 11:08:26 but not many people really understand the implications of signals especially in threaded environments. I have seen people think they are a replacement for a true IPC strategy Feb 15 11:08:42 Well, try/catch is not the cure-all to all problems. While it might be better than checking errno and result values, it has this ugly property of often masking problems, especially with to broad catches :( Feb 15 11:09:06 yacc: Which brings us to the next good C++ tactic: do not let your developers use try/catch Feb 15 11:09:22 yacc: Always check and return results Feb 15 11:09:27 The correct strategy most of the time is not let your developers use C++ Feb 15 11:09:56 zutesmog: Again, if you do not let them mess up class definitions, you are relatively safe Feb 15 11:10:09 not on java ;) Feb 15 11:10:15 point is clear, I hope. Feb 15 11:10:15 I really don' Feb 15 11:10:18 zutesmog, well, that's what RST38h is saying, even if he does not realize, he is crossing of C++ feature by feature till he crossed out 95% of C++ :-P Feb 15 11:10:38 yacc: No, only crossing ~30% of C++ Feb 15 11:10:54 yacc: But yes, I fully admit of using C++ as "a better C" Feb 15 11:11:10 lol, RST38h you just have not enough fantasy to see what desasters can happen, ... Feb 15 11:11:11 any one knows the h-e-n irc channel Feb 15 11:11:12 ? Feb 15 11:11:15 oops, the problem is teams change and C++ and C is often unreadable between teams. Feb 15 11:11:20 yacc: But I do, see? Feb 15 11:11:21 especially 2 years later. Feb 15 11:11:42 zutesmog: and there are "reliable" alternatives? :) Feb 15 11:11:55 like, eh, java? :) Feb 15 11:11:56 Number one criteria for me in any project is the code should be readable and understandable by humans first and foremost. Feb 15 11:12:11 you guys dont like python? Feb 15 11:12:15 zutesmog: does not depend on the language (ok, ok, MOSTLY) Feb 15 11:12:32 "there, it does not crash anymore" --- ROTFL Feb 15 11:12:32 Per: Snakes. Afraid of snakes. Hate 'em! :) Feb 15 11:12:36 Agreed up to a point, but people try to get fancy. Feb 15 11:12:50 zutesmog: that is why you have to tutor them Feb 15 11:12:51 (I love python but wasn't going to raise that) Feb 15 11:12:57 RST38h, if you do not have very specific reasons to be as lowlevel as possible, higher level languages like Lisp, Python, Ruby, Smalltalk and so on come to mind. Feb 15 11:13:02 I installed that package Feb 15 11:13:07 zutesmog: for their own good and for your ass preservation Feb 15 11:13:14 deno, are you on ARMEL? Feb 15 11:13:21 really strict guidelines are necessary in any team if the project is going to have a long life. Feb 15 11:13:28 MohammadAG, arm Feb 15 11:13:42 zutesmog, well, almost any observation about programming applies to any language (you know, the turing complete argument), but usually to a different degree. Feb 15 11:13:52 yacc: May I please shrug and go have lunch, at the mention of Ruby, Lisp, and Smalltalk, as viable industrial alternatives? :) Feb 15 11:13:55 I spent years writing insurance systems in business basic, (back in late 80's) and we code reviewed everything. Feb 15 11:14:17 There's code review and there's code review. Feb 15 11:14:18 MohammadAG, I used the https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7972 Feb 15 11:14:21 Bug 7972: Kernel in PR1.1 build-depends on fiasco-gen which is nowhere to be found Feb 15 11:14:30 zuesmog: You do not need strict guidelines. Strict guidelines do not work. Feb 15 11:14:34 yacc: thats why I wasn't targetting specific languages. Feb 15 11:14:41 RST38h, well, Neanderthals produce more reliable code with Python, even if you do not love it than with C++, ... ;) Feb 15 11:14:47 RST38h: don't agree on that point. Feb 15 11:14:50 zuesmog: But you need to make your developers understand WHY they should stick to certain practices Feb 15 11:15:03 deno, change debian/control then Feb 15 11:15:12 Edit Depends to depend on that package Feb 15 11:15:19 though you should use sdk-fiasco-gen from the repos Feb 15 11:15:21 absolutley but if you don';t have those guidelines everything goes to pot and each new dude brings his own flavour along Feb 15 11:15:44 zuesmog: No, you assign the new dude to an old dude and watch his commits for a while, then let him continue on his own Feb 15 11:15:55 zutesmog, python has it's own set of features that should be used only when you really need them and know where you'll get cut (e.g. __getattr__ can be a bitch, meta classes are not understood by 90% of developers, and so on) Feb 15 11:16:00 even in OSS project slike python have strict guidelines for committers Feb 15 11:16:17 tests must pas, follow PEP 8 when practical etc... Feb 15 11:16:26 s/pas/pass/ Feb 15 11:16:26 zutesmog meant: tests must pass, follow PEP 8 when practical etc... Feb 15 11:16:29 code reviews etc.. Feb 15 11:16:34 MohammadAG, which repository? with apt-get is not possible to download it Feb 15 11:16:39 PEP7/8 :-P Feb 15 11:17:13 ;-) Feb 15 11:17:49 deno, nokia-binaries... Feb 15 11:18:19 MohammadAG, I have it in the sources.list Feb 15 11:18:29 but it doesn't find it anyway Feb 15 11:19:00 apt-get update Feb 15 11:19:21 already done Feb 15 11:19:31 apt-cache search fiasco Feb 15 11:19:36 no output Feb 15 11:19:48 yacc: agreed every language has its dark corners, 90% of the time you don't need to go there, but be glad you can when you need to ;-) Feb 15 11:19:53 I followed this wiki: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking but I can not ping 192.168.2.15 from my notebook, any help? Feb 15 11:20:25 Does ifconfig show the interface as up? Feb 15 11:22:52 SpeedEvil, no Feb 15 11:23:08 MohammadAG, I have in the sources.list: deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/mytoken nokia-binaries Feb 15 11:23:10 although I did ifup usb0 Feb 15 11:23:25 it is shown in route Feb 15 11:23:30 is mytoken "mytoken" or $mytoken? Feb 15 11:23:31 You possibly do not have the correct driver for usb-net Feb 15 11:23:48 deno: there's no h-e-n IRC channel, there's only a hostmode DEVELOPERS taskforce meeting channel Feb 15 11:24:21 docscrutinizer, I was able to do that before Feb 15 11:24:34 MohammadAG, deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/4bc37c7c11ebe90174c040b805a8dc79 nokia-binaries Feb 15 11:25:09 DocScrutinizer, k and what is? I m going to modify the kernel to improve (hopefully) the hostmode Feb 15 11:25:17 SpeedEvil, I can ping 192.168.2.15 from within N900 Feb 15 11:25:33 #maemo-hostmode-discussion Feb 15 11:25:37 DocScrutinizer, thx Feb 15 11:26:51 It's so sad that people see Maemo and MeeGo as failed platforms. Feb 15 11:27:01 alterego: no Feb 15 11:27:26 alterego: 'people' don't. Nokia board of directors do - why do you think they hired Elop? :) Feb 15 11:27:44 platform might be ok, but people see nokia as failed company (and in many ways it is) Feb 15 11:27:50 SpeedEvil, I am wrong, usb0 is up in N900, it was just a looong list in the small display, had to use less to confirm Feb 15 11:27:57 I don't see that, I think they've done more than a lot of other companies have done. Even if we're not completely happy with it or how they executed it. Working with Maemo and MeeGo is very fun. Feb 15 11:27:57 SpeedEvil, now what? Feb 15 11:28:16 tybollt: tell that to the continual rants on tmo :P Feb 15 11:28:27 they fscked up big time and now they try to even sell their souls to the devil Feb 15 11:28:28 smhar: double check the IPs, and make sure the routes point right - so that you're not routing the other machine to the local interface Feb 15 11:29:10 alterego, nokia is horribly bureaucratic company, they can't do software dev work required by current market Feb 15 11:29:12 I like the nokiaplanb shareholders^^ Feb 15 11:29:49 chem|st, yeah but that plan 3-4 years to late, lots of nokia people have said same things privately for years Feb 15 11:31:05 It's not that they're not talented enough, there id dome serious talent in Nokia, it just seems like their are huge bottlenecks in their r&d infrastructure and release engineering cycles. Feb 15 11:31:23 s/id dome/is some/ Feb 15 11:31:23 alterego meant: It's not that they're not talented enough, there is some serious talent in Nokia, it just seems like their are huge bottlenecks in their r&d infrastructure and release engineering cycles. Feb 15 11:31:28 jarkkom_: sure but harmattan will ship first time this year, even a N910 would make sense with the current PR+CSSU Feb 15 11:32:09 chem|st: cssu is pointless for harmattan as harmattan doesn't use hildon :P Feb 15 11:32:26 alterego: read again pls Feb 15 11:32:59 I wouldn't call meego releasable... Feb 15 11:33:09 talking m5 Feb 15 11:33:41 Don't want another M5 device thanks :P Feb 15 11:33:59 alterego: sure you dont? Feb 15 11:34:04 And MeeGo is very close to being releasable, but lets not forget Harmattan is not MeeGo :P Feb 15 11:34:14 chem|st: got two :P Feb 15 11:34:24 and harmattan sounds like testing stage Feb 15 11:35:19 It was 5/5 the pretty much final product, with DUI and Qt as the core platform API Feb 15 11:35:46 I think that's either very late in the r&d phase or pretty much mass production ready. Feb 15 11:35:47 SpeedEvil, my mistake, forgot to allow-hotplug n900 in my notebook. now I can ping 192.168.2.15 . thanks Feb 15 11:35:51 alterego: but you dont have a slim N910 with 1.2GHz, 1GB RAM, AGN, 12Mpx.... Feb 15 11:36:12 :) Feb 15 11:36:19 chem|st: I'd prefer that hardware with a more refined more open (MeeGo) OS :) Feb 15 11:36:36 alterego: but that is no businessplan Feb 15 11:36:58 and still you must not have you sim with pin active and so on... Feb 15 11:37:46 Basically Harmattan would be the last "maemo" as they transition the lower level apis into MeeGo core, as the Harmattan UX is supposed to be MeeGo compliant. Because MeeGo handset UX is basically Harmattan UX :) Feb 15 11:38:32 chem|st: if you're refering to MeeGo Handset not having pin feature, do you seriously think they'd not put that in before release? Feb 15 11:38:59 alterego: sure they will... Feb 15 11:39:01 when mounted as mass storage, I have copied all important data to my pc. now I an logged in ssh to N900, what should I copy to pc, so that I am sure I have full backup before flashing Feb 15 11:39:29 Also, from the ARM adaptation perspective, the reason we don't really have PIN functions is because of the dual boot setup Feb 15 11:39:30 smhar: you could just use the backup tool... Feb 15 11:39:55 Well, not dual boot setup, but the current boot setup Feb 15 11:40:10 chem|st, did that. and copied the created folder to pc. Feb 15 11:40:16 if you copied your mydocs and have done a full backup to your SD you are just fine Feb 15 11:40:25 I think it requires some interesting kernel and initrd stuff, stuff that would be in a final device :P Feb 15 11:40:31 * javispedro notes the state of the meego handset n900 images is not representative of the state of harmattan. Feb 15 11:40:47 chem|st, I have no SD . I copied every thing to pc Feb 15 11:40:53 harmattan works =) Feb 15 11:40:55 smhar: did you modify anything within /etc then you might want to copy those few files as well Feb 15 11:41:08 javispedro: exactly, or even the state of whatever _real_ MeeGo Nokia may or may not be working on internally. Feb 15 11:41:10 chem|st, no. Feb 15 11:41:16 nothing special Feb 15 11:41:32 bbiab Feb 15 11:41:33 javispedro: that is what I say since Doc made me aware of... Feb 15 11:41:41 well not exactly Feb 15 11:42:14 that they are two different things I know back from february last year but noone ever seems to listen to anything but rants Feb 15 11:42:36 smhar: then you are good to go Feb 15 11:42:53 thanks chem|st Feb 15 11:43:20 yw Feb 15 11:43:47 how easy is it as a rule to port stuff from Maemo 5 back to 4? Feb 15 11:44:06 "as a rule"? Feb 15 11:44:41 i mean in general, i realize it depends on the program Feb 15 11:45:04 anything meeting dependencies might just work after being recompiled for m4 Feb 15 11:45:54 that's nice, /me goes to grab SDK or whatever is needed to try Feb 15 11:46:37 but there was something about the UX implementation changes between m4 and m5 (afair) Feb 15 11:47:02 you may ask the maintainer for help Feb 15 11:51:59 chem|st: why not suggest backupmenu to smhar? Feb 15 12:12:39 thp, thaaaaank you Feb 15 12:12:47 finally someone did it Feb 15 12:13:06 ? Feb 15 12:13:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZeDI0BsoBM&feature=youtu.be Feb 15 12:13:38 Jaffa, i think it should be added to mwkn and font page of maemo news Feb 15 12:14:18 it's indeed quite awesome :) Feb 15 12:14:39 see his other vid on full forced rotation Feb 15 12:14:41 finnaly i h8;d that by the time it shifted i had given up Feb 15 12:16:07 MohammadAG i said thousand times it is useless to have rotaion liek we had Feb 15 12:16:12 now is there a app name for it? Feb 15 12:16:20 MohammadAG, link for other one? Feb 15 12:16:49 DangerMaus, wait for CSSU update. MohammadAG, right? =) Feb 15 12:17:23 day week month ? Feb 15 12:17:54 interesting that PlanB business Feb 15 12:18:04 Not really. Feb 15 12:18:13 Unless they've got enough shares to force it. Feb 15 12:18:14 im trying to l=sleep me mum is banging roound the kitchen Feb 15 12:18:17 Well at least the part about culling management overhead Feb 15 12:18:23 SpeedEvil: indeed Feb 15 12:18:28 DangerMaus i think week max but i bet for couple days Feb 15 12:18:33 oops wrong chan Feb 15 12:19:00 Hi folks Feb 15 12:19:05 k thnx Feb 15 12:20:37 might carry more weight if people knew who they were and how many shares they own Feb 15 12:21:02 Indeed. 1 share, for the purposes of the note = lol. Feb 15 12:21:33 well unless they can persuade 51% of the other shareholders of course ;) Feb 15 12:21:38 MohammadAG awesome, finally i can close microb while in portrait Feb 15 12:21:45 is there a minimum buy-in for directorship? Feb 15 12:22:32 Mohammad: You fixed MicroB? Feb 15 12:23:04 no, thp made a forced rotation patch Feb 15 12:23:05 is The maps application open source thp? Feb 15 12:23:16 no Feb 15 12:23:19 mece, it's a web app Feb 15 12:23:24 oh, nice :D Feb 15 12:23:26 basically, it's the most open source app :P Feb 15 12:23:39 but it uses a binary to do the hard work Feb 15 12:23:52 cept for the launcher and window I guess Feb 15 12:24:09 the map geenration and rendering is all in the binary Feb 15 12:24:10 mece: the main layout is just a html file Feb 15 12:24:27 thp, curious. is it a webkit widget? Feb 15 12:24:37 No, it's XUL Feb 15 12:24:54 A load of javascript, and XPCOM bindings Feb 15 12:25:13 DocScrutinizer: never heard anything good about it... Feb 15 12:25:36 chem|st: V2 seems to work Feb 15 12:26:00 DocScrutinizer: and with copying of MyDocs and backup to desktop it is just fine... Feb 15 12:26:11 at last for the part to create a proper tarball of rootfs Feb 15 12:26:25 sure Feb 15 12:26:44 chem|st: yep, modulo the "did you change /etc?" part Feb 15 12:26:51 but I do not expect an advanced user even asking what to backup... Feb 15 12:27:03 hmm, why don't I have backupmenu v2... Feb 15 12:27:53 dunno... maybe RobbieThe1st forgot to kick MohammadAG's ass? Feb 15 12:28:13 ? Feb 15 12:28:17 why would he do that :P Feb 15 12:28:26 hm Feb 15 12:28:33 RobbieThe1st: just advertising backupmenu :-) Feb 15 12:28:37 I forgot about /root in my scripts and had to setup all from scratch from .ssh to .bashrc etc Feb 15 12:28:40 :P Feb 15 12:28:45 V2 = 0.40+ Feb 15 12:30:20 RobbieThe1st: did you include a boot menupoint? which would allow to bootup as if kbd slider been closed Feb 15 12:33:10 http://thp.io/2011/maemo/ham/ham_portrait.png Feb 15 12:33:15 thp, you are awesome Feb 15 12:33:30 thp: Is the whole UI ok, or is it broken? Feb 15 12:33:52 MohammadAG, is n900 calendaer is closed source? Feb 15 12:34:23 RST38h: of H-A-M? it works pretty well Feb 15 12:34:32 cool =) Feb 15 12:34:37 ZogG: ui is, backend is open Feb 15 12:34:40 thp: BTW, what was the magic trick? Feb 15 12:34:49 magic trick? Feb 15 12:34:57 thp: to make it go portrait I mean Feb 15 12:35:09 RST38h: see http://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-application-manager/merge_requests/1 for the diff :) Feb 15 12:35:36 oh no, the first sign of wearing out on my keypad :D Feb 15 12:35:53 It's the bloody symkey :D Feb 15 12:35:59 the background gradient has to be provided by the theme, though - by default, it's black. i just copied in a background gradient i gimped up myself Feb 15 12:36:00 thp: Cool stuff Feb 15 12:36:08 thp, very nice. Feb 15 12:36:14 had you discussed Nokia Plan B? Feb 15 12:36:48 thp: Is it h-d which monitors the accelerometers and handles deciding when to go portrait/landscape? I think the timing could be reduced a little (making it feel more fluid) and some kind of UI hook provided for "lock orientation" Feb 15 12:36:57 mce Feb 15 12:37:09 Jaffa, agreed Feb 15 12:37:13 thp: neat =) Feb 15 12:37:13 h-d listens to that afaik Feb 15 12:37:26 thp <-- is even polite enough to keep the same coding style Feb 15 12:38:12 aha, webos dev event Feb 15 12:39:42 Jaffa, definately agree on the timing. It feels slow. I always start shaking the device before it rotates. Feb 15 12:39:59 RST38h: dialogs also work mostly: http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8634/screenshot2011021513400.png Feb 15 12:40:36 Jaffa: yep, h-d decides which orientation to use Feb 15 12:40:48 mce does the listening, i think Feb 15 12:42:34 thp: "mostly" won;t cut it :( Modest also "mostly" works in portrait, just not completely Feb 15 12:42:58 Jaffa, though i guess it can be hacked in (orientation lock) Feb 15 12:43:37 guys does apt-cache search fiasco show some output in your scratchbox environment? Feb 15 12:43:46 RST38h: ok. completely then :) Feb 15 12:43:53 any* Feb 15 12:44:05 with mostly i meant "i didn't change anything, and what i saw when testing it worked fine" Feb 15 12:47:00 thp: Make it part of CSSU! :) Feb 15 12:47:23 lardman thinking of actually how is posible to change some things Feb 15 12:47:25 thp: Btw, if you feel like resizing a few widgets, check out Modest, it only has a couple of tight spots Feb 15 12:47:37 Jaffa: the lis302 g-meter chip should assert a IRQ line, kernel driver sensing this and emitting a /sys kevent, which gets detected by mce(?) and converted to a dbus signal, I guess Feb 15 12:47:46 thp: like buttons staying in portrait when rotated etc Feb 15 12:48:00 and add the google support Feb 15 12:48:03 <_berto_> http://www.nokiapland.com/ Feb 15 12:48:05 <_berto_> http://www.nokiaplane.com/ Feb 15 12:48:06 <_berto_> ... Feb 15 12:48:24 also plan9 Feb 15 12:48:26 ZogG: sure, would be good to be able to change a lot of things really Feb 15 12:48:29 thp: There's already a merge request for it to go into the CSSU. gitorious seems to be working well to gather patches. Feb 15 12:48:32 and f and g are registered Feb 15 12:48:59 <_berto_> f is NSFW Feb 15 12:50:37 nokiaplank FTW Feb 15 12:50:57 * DocScrutinizer reads nokiaplane and shudders Feb 15 12:51:19 no plans for nokia in XXI Feb 15 12:53:31 what does the text in nokiaplanz.com say? Feb 15 12:54:05 RST38h: buttons staying in portrait? Feb 15 12:54:07 thp: "Hotel package is closed." according to Google Translate Feb 15 12:54:13 lardman let's change nokia decision about WP7 with calendar time back plugin Feb 15 12:55:29 * xkr47 thinks this is a winner.. power button -> Phone -> menu -> Turning control -> Display orientation -> Landscape Feb 15 12:55:36 Jaffa: oh, so that's probably just some domain parking thing then Feb 15 12:55:46 it has been annoying me since I got the phone that it keeps rotating the screen one or two times every time I want to answer the phone Feb 15 12:55:50 delaying the answering Feb 15 12:55:54 MEH http://www.nokiaplang.com/ Feb 15 12:55:56 <_berto_> http://nokiaplanx.com/ Feb 15 12:55:58 <_berto_> this one is random Feb 15 12:57:40 thp, Hotel package is closed as google said Feb 15 12:57:50 http://translate.google.co.il/translate_t?hl=en&q=Hotellipaketti+on+suljettu&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sl=fi&tl=en&sa=X&ei=JHhaTaKdMYKj8QPAppTVDw&ved=0CBoQrgYwAA# Feb 15 12:58:46 ZogG: Calendar frontend needs to be re-written, preferably adding in some features like different alarm options, etc. Feb 15 12:58:58 ZogG: Reverse engineering the format of the map data would be useful Feb 15 13:00:36 thp: Yes, when you rotate the device (after Ctrl+Shift+R) Modest rotates, but the accuont selection buttons stay wide (i.e. they go beyond the screen) Feb 15 13:00:46 thp: Same thing occurs in some other Modest screens Feb 15 13:00:55 of the map data? Feb 15 13:01:12 ZogG: yes, to enable the Maps app to be replaced Feb 15 13:01:23 and use the decent vector data that we all now own Feb 15 13:01:43 oh i dunno that we had maps integrated in calendar =) Feb 15 13:03:39 hildon-desktop still does not support portrait mode or am I wrong? Feb 15 13:04:00 Per_n900, it supports, but not apps do Feb 15 13:05:38 ZogG: was a different point actually, not sure whether it does support the calendar app Feb 15 13:05:58 actually I think it does, but doesn't support contacts. Or vice versa Feb 15 13:06:07 either way the maps app is craptastic Feb 15 13:06:55 lardman, ovi maps sucks but for my country most apps suck =)) Feb 15 13:07:18 where are you ZogG ? Feb 15 13:07:30 lardman, Holy Land Feb 15 13:07:37 The Vatican? Feb 15 13:07:40 ;) Feb 15 13:08:06 Palestine then I guess? Feb 15 13:08:20 or some part thereof Feb 15 13:08:37 I suppose I should include Israel Feb 15 13:08:59 * lardman doesn't mean to start a Holy war Feb 15 13:09:13 Saving "The Levant" is safest. Feb 15 13:09:55 s/Saving/Saying. Feb 15 13:10:47 Ken-Young: yes indeed Feb 15 13:11:43 lardman Israel Feb 15 13:11:53 I got there in the end then :) Feb 15 13:13:17 has anyone looked at the format of the map data? Feb 15 13:13:38 the ovi maps binary is quite large unfortunately Feb 15 13:14:46 hmm, everytime I make a modification to my code, some error falls out which was previously hiding in there Feb 15 13:14:57 ZogG, I have to say, Google Maps on the iPhone is epic Feb 15 13:16:22 I was just about to try looking at Israel using Ovi maps, but the site seems to be knackered Feb 15 13:16:27 What's the "complete" backup for the N900, just before sending it in to Nokia Service? Feb 15 13:16:43 lardman: That's the way coding is supposed to work. Feb 15 13:17:03 Since no code is bug free, if you're not finding new bugs, you're doing it wrong. Feb 15 13:17:12 derf: amazing how different mistakes almost cancel each other out, just leaving very small differences you can't work out Feb 15 13:18:25 In signal processing, this is the normal state of affairs. Feb 15 13:19:15 yeah Feb 15 13:20:22 derf, that's the normal state of affairs in most fields, ... Feb 15 13:20:43 derf, even if it's a single error, you cannot assume that while diagnosing it, ... Feb 15 13:21:03 anyone have any idea why I randomly have icd2 and dbus-daemon taking up significant cpu time for many hours on N900? Feb 15 13:21:14 No, I mean the error terms _literally_ cancel. It's not even a bug! Feb 15 13:21:38 I'm comparing to known good analytical models, so I need to work out what's error and what's implementation inaccuracy Feb 15 13:22:12 Ah, you're lucky then. Feb 15 13:22:22 until I changed one part of the code that was generating an error and suddenly everything is out by a factor of 2 Feb 15 13:22:51 until I found the other error that was causing the factor of 2 error Feb 15 13:22:54 all good fun Feb 15 13:24:17 MohammadAG on android is well Feb 15 13:24:51 argh. any clue why my N810 might not connect to WLAN? note i do have a lot of non-standard repositories enabled, including extras-devel, but... it was working 10 minutes ago! ;( Feb 15 13:25:37 probably something you installed recently that stuffed it up Feb 15 13:26:11 boo there is no /var/log/dpkg.log :( Feb 15 13:27:28 LjL: on the other hand since you actually have an n810, do you have a fast picture viewer? Feb 15 13:27:45 i have tear, which is fast, telescope, which is fast, mytube, which is fast Feb 15 13:27:52 i'm looking for other fast awesome shit :D Feb 15 13:28:07 sevard: that's something i haven't investigated yet... my N810 is quite new, only got it a few days ago :) Feb 15 13:28:13 whoa Feb 15 13:28:19 good luck with it! get telescope ;) Feb 15 13:28:34 i do have all the other programs you mentioned :P except telescope. i tried it, but i had a feeling it took up a bit too much RAM... Feb 15 13:28:50 whaaat Feb 15 13:28:59 a feeling or actual numbers lol Feb 15 13:29:22 well, VSZ was 16000 in ps Feb 15 13:29:32 but i never really knew what the ps numbers actually do mean :P Feb 15 13:29:48 VSZ might be virtual size Feb 15 13:30:52 how strange... it connects to my open network, but not to my WPA protected network. i've reset the router and the N810 both. Feb 15 13:31:23 vsz - virtual memory size of the process in KiB (1024-byte units). Device mappings are currently excluded; this is subject to change. (alias vsize). Feb 15 13:31:44 so it's how much it malloc()ed, whether or not it actually touched it? Feb 15 13:37:26 wish N810 had a back-facing camera. i already have mirrors. Feb 15 13:39:10 * erstazi loves CSSU Feb 15 13:39:37 LjL, stick 2 N810's back to back Feb 15 13:39:56 thank you MohammadAG Feb 15 13:40:47 heh Feb 15 13:41:44 so what does cssu update? Feb 15 13:41:47 wish N900 didn't have a back-facing camera so it wouldn't have that bulge in the back ;) Feb 15 13:42:34 is there any replacement camera app that would be simpler than the default Feb 15 13:42:39 xkr47: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU Feb 15 13:42:43 the buttons are in the way when you want to hold it with one hand Feb 15 13:44:03 Kegetys: you can cut off the shutter, and it won't Feb 15 13:44:43 hah Feb 15 13:51:36 by the way sevard, i'm making an N8x0 tips page at http://wiki.maemo.org/Using_the_N8x0 maybe you want to check it / add something Feb 15 13:56:53 So, who's hiring? :D Feb 15 13:57:16 google is Feb 15 13:57:37 I'm not ex Nokia Feb 15 13:57:51 :D Feb 15 14:01:25 guys does apt-cache search fiasco show some output in your scratchbox environment? Feb 15 14:10:54 I'd kindly request you to vote: https://bugs.maemo.org/votes.cgi?action=show_user&bug_id=8347#vote_8347 (maybe useless, but can't hurt) Feb 15 14:11:47 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8347 Feb 15 14:11:49 Bug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available Feb 15 14:12:45 i don't get it Feb 15 14:12:51 i installed maemo sdk Feb 15 14:12:58 and i have qt creator Feb 15 14:13:27 how can i do that if i run for test my app it would be emulated like in maemo Feb 15 14:16:41 Hi all, I have a problem with my N900 and maemo, my device doesn Feb 15 14:16:54 DocScrutinizer: what/who does use cell broadcast? Feb 15 14:17:21 doesn't see some wireless networks (ap), but other devices see it and singal is strong enought, what should I do to find out where the problem is? Feb 15 14:17:25 yacc: see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8347#c12 Feb 15 14:17:27 Bug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available Feb 15 14:18:14 ZogG: did you read the wiki? summary: scratchbox, Xephyr, and af-sb-init.sh start Feb 15 14:18:21 Douglish: some or any? Feb 15 14:19:24 DocScrutinizer: It sees only ad-hoc networks. But on other place it saw others not only ad-hoc, so I'm bit confused about that. Feb 15 14:20:16 you made sure the missing networks are 802.11b/g and not hidden-SSID? Feb 15 14:20:17 But maybe there is a problem there there is roaming on. It's eduroam network. Feb 15 14:20:29 hey guys is it possible to run fluxbox on the n900 ? Feb 15 14:20:53 ah nevermind, found the wiki page Feb 15 14:20:59 So yeah who can we ping to find out if doing something about the bug with IncomingCBS is possible or not? Feb 15 14:21:06 Oh, I see the problem, I guess. Frequency:5.18 GHz Feb 15 14:22:03 that's not supported by N900 Feb 15 14:23:01 yea i can see that, instructions are for n810, but gonna try it on my n900 anyway... Feb 15 14:24:48 its fun to see hp ignoring nokia and nokia ignoring hp in the ecosystem race Feb 15 14:25:37 np: Pink Floyd - We don't need no ecosystem. Feb 15 14:26:51 :-D Feb 15 14:27:11 in soviet russia^Wfinlad, ecosystems doesn't need YOU! Feb 15 14:27:18 javispedro: whom to ping about 8347? Feb 15 14:27:21 ecosystem Feb 15 14:28:06 DocScrutinizar: nfi, probably a symbian guy :S Feb 15 14:28:15 lol Feb 15 14:28:21 We just need to find who owns libcsd-sms.so and libsms.so Feb 15 14:28:38 If I had the binary .debs for them, the changelogs and stuff may say who owns it Feb 15 14:28:42 nobody owns it now, I guess Feb 15 14:28:53 or rather who wrote it Feb 15 14:29:36 didn't the .h headerfiles in Qt SDK clearly say who wrote it? Feb 15 14:29:58 nope, those arent related to libsms or csd-sms Feb 15 14:30:04 those are related to the cell modem Feb 15 14:30:08 ok Feb 15 14:30:08 which would be a different guy Feb 15 14:30:54 so, usual path: council, tekojo, stskeeps, random-staff-affiliated Feb 15 14:31:34 stskeeps or tekojo seems like the best bet at this point Feb 15 14:31:41 maybe andre__ as well Feb 15 14:32:16 he's the guy to port community bugtraq tickets into Nokia Feb 15 14:32:34 ...in case they make sense. Feb 15 14:32:41 :-) Feb 15 14:32:43 so yeah bugs 8347 and 10870 are the issues related to this Feb 15 14:32:56 will be a pr1.3? Feb 15 14:33:07 will be a pr1.4? Feb 15 14:33:09 jatt: ??? Feb 15 14:33:27 andre__: unrelated, I guess Feb 15 14:33:28 another maemo update for the n900 Feb 15 14:33:57 and what's with those tickets? enhancement == meego (no enhancements for maemo planned as far as I know), and the other is WONTFIX Feb 15 14:34:28 8347 has turned from an enhancement into a bug Feb 15 14:34:41 as in, there is functionality in the cellular stack for maemo Feb 15 14:35:14 if it's not a critical or blocker bug that actually won't change much. Feb 15 14:36:14 so I guess we have to give up on having working Cell Broadcast on the N900 then :( Feb 15 14:36:58 andre__: opening up some limited amount of source might do Feb 15 14:37:08 tell Nokia Feb 15 14:37:33 yes all we would need is the source code to libsms and libcsd-sms and any header files required to compile that Feb 15 14:37:34 :-) thought you *are* Nokia for all that matters here Feb 15 14:37:52 err...no? Feb 15 14:38:03 I'm not a Nokia employee, nor a Nokia lawyer. Feb 15 14:38:15 I just handle bug reports. Feb 15 14:38:17 ok, so we should ping stskeeps or tekojo then Feb 15 14:38:25 I see ;.( Feb 15 14:38:30 I guess Feb 15 14:39:13 sounds like tekojo can't do much either Feb 15 14:39:42 stskeeps could, if we convince him meego-arm needs those info Feb 15 14:40:32 except that it doesnt because of ofono Feb 15 14:41:18 Didn't the ofono folks get something running on Maemo? Feb 15 14:41:30 Or was it limited to the same API already available for CSD etc. Feb 15 14:41:34 it's an affront against maemo community that we can't get *any* help to fix bugs ourselves, while meego-arm just needs to ask and gets *maemo* sources usually without problems Feb 15 14:43:28 I feel this attitude of Nokia is letting down their users much worse than any switch to winP7 does Feb 15 14:43:38 DocScrutinizer: not sources .. Feb 15 14:43:47 oh, NOT? Feb 15 14:43:53 We get the same bins you get, though maybe slightly modernised. Feb 15 14:43:58 what about mce then, just for instance Feb 15 14:44:05 yeah MCE Feb 15 14:44:11 MeeGo has MCE in git Feb 15 14:44:40 PA another one that comes to mind Feb 15 14:44:40 but its not the same code as in Fremantle Feb 15 14:44:51 PA still has closed binaries in MeeGo Feb 15 14:44:53 jonwil: even worse Feb 15 14:45:18 although I think that Nokia made the closed-pa bits in MeeGo smaller than those in Maemo Feb 15 14:45:22 will be there a moment where I can install maemo, meego or any other linux "distribution" on a phone and just run it? just like you can run ubuntu on nearly any laptop? Feb 15 14:45:28 jonwil: all this doesn't change the mere fact Feb 15 14:45:35 yeah we arent asking for the entire Feb 15 14:45:37 oops Feb 15 14:46:07 jatt: no Feb 15 14:46:14 DocScrutinizer: what are the limitations? Feb 15 14:46:24 we arent asking for the entire Maemo source tree, just some dev packages and source code for a few specific packages that we can use to improve Maemo and make it better (all of which are replaced by open code in MeeGo) Feb 15 14:47:03 smartphones are getting closer to computers, I was just wondering Feb 15 14:47:12 jonwil: that's probably well understood (or just not of interest) at Nokia Feb 15 14:47:35 MeeGo-on-n900 is not the answer IMO, neither is "lets replace the telephony stack and everything that uses it with ofono and the inferior MeeGo bits" Feb 15 14:47:49 I say inferior in that say the phone dialer in MeeGo is not as good as the one in Maemo Feb 15 14:47:52 jonwil: The council will be asking again, but we're letting our colleagues in Nokia work out if they've still got a job first ;-) Feb 15 14:47:59 jonwil: the problem is they are not willing to spend one man's one day work, to open up anything, for maemo Feb 15 14:48:11 Unless there's a good cost/benefit analysis. Feb 15 14:48:29 Certainly "we want as much as possible" isn't as useful as "X wants Y to be able to do Z" Feb 15 14:48:44 Where "X" == jonwil, "Y" == telephony stuff and "Z" == "cell broadcast" Feb 15 14:48:59 Jaffa: that's why I added https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8347#c12 Feb 15 14:49:00 Bug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available Feb 15 14:49:07 they did a good cost/benefist analysis for the windows take over :) Feb 15 14:49:11 benefit Feb 15 14:49:14 I hope that's clear enough Feb 15 14:49:21 and for telephony, the mere fact that ofono exists means that all the "open the maemo code" arguments a LOT harder to argue Feb 15 14:49:24 DocScrutinizer: Indeed. Feb 15 14:49:39 DocScrutinizer: I wonder how best to gather together these outstanding requests. Feb 15 14:49:45 Jaffa: can you follow up on this? Feb 15 14:49:59 DocScrutinizer: Will do, but ideally I'd have a few. Wiki page, maybe? Feb 15 14:50:07 sure Feb 15 14:50:11 DocScrutinizer: Which links to bugs and defines the X, Y & Z for each thing being asked for? Feb 15 14:50:16 That'd be very handy Feb 15 14:50:26 Lets build this wiki then Feb 15 14:50:27 I thought there's such a wiki page already Feb 15 14:50:34 there is but its obsolete Feb 15 14:50:38 Indeed Feb 15 14:50:39 yo Feb 15 14:50:44 so update it Feb 15 14:50:44 a new wiki page for the outstanding wiki pages would be good Feb 15 14:50:51 I mean outsanding requests Feb 15 14:50:53 DocScrutinizer: That'd work Feb 15 14:51:02 first though we have to identify the genuine requests that we need Feb 15 14:51:13 * Jaffa wants something he can show Nokia and say "look, this isn't zealotry, there are people ready to work on these packages" Feb 15 14:51:27 jonwil: jaffa meant *all* outstanding requests Feb 15 14:51:49 Jaffa: Is this something Nokia expects? Feb 15 14:52:12 RST38h: Nokia have been pretty clear in the past as to the likelihood of any further licensing change requests. Feb 15 14:52:28 we need to make sure that the outstanding reuqests are actually still required Feb 15 14:52:36 Jaffa: if somebody starts, I'll join in and check each request for proper X,Y,Z and relevance Feb 15 14:52:41 no point in asking for something if the use case doesnt matter anymore Feb 15 14:53:13 jonwil: exactly Feb 15 14:54:10 RST38h: However, it's easier to make an argument if you can point to someone willing to make a concrete improvement. Feb 15 14:54:53 jonwil: you could start on it, by simply collecting the bug# from track, and I'll scrutinize each one and see if I can find the original author of the request and/or some project team still interested in doing sth with it Feb 15 14:55:01 Will start a new wiki page simply llisting the known outstanding requests that appear to still be relavent Feb 15 14:55:15 and then someone can flesh it out a bit Feb 15 14:55:54 jonwil: please try to edit the existing wikipage, it's dangling cruft otherwise Feb 15 14:56:56 ok, will add something to the existing webpage Feb 15 14:57:16 jonwil: ping me as soon as there's something I can use my memory to add in historic facts and find guys to ask about recent state Feb 15 14:57:22 ok Feb 15 14:57:35 :-) Feb 15 15:00:45 Jaffa: you think this is an effort going right direction this way? Feb 15 15:03:13 DocScrutinizer: I believe it's better than ranting on IRC, on TMO or in one or two bug reports... Feb 15 15:04:01 sure, I just asked for your comment on the suggested procedure. Does it sound to you like the result is what you need? Feb 15 15:04:24 DocScrutinizer: Oh, yes. Sorry. Indeed. Spot on. Feb 15 15:04:36 ok, fine Feb 15 15:04:38 bbl Feb 15 15:04:45 DocScrutinizer: Table. Issue #. X wants Y for Z :-) Feb 15 15:06:46 yeah, I'll add in things like "most recently commented on bugtrack: "; "number of votes: "; "external references: []"... Feb 15 15:07:31 What I am doing is writing a list with each item containing the item/feature this is for, links to the bug(s) for it plus a simple list of the bits of code that are required Feb 15 15:07:34 Then you can go from there Feb 15 15:07:37 plus a comment on estimated relevance Feb 15 15:08:09 jonwil: yes. Appreciated Feb 15 15:13:41 I do not want to start a flame here, but it's almost funny how Elop left out Maemo from the list of Nokia's options, to make appear WP7 as the only alternative. Sigh. Not that there are ANY options when MS is sponsoring Nokia :/ Feb 15 15:15:14 edheldil: there is no maemo Feb 15 15:15:22 elop is a Genius Feb 15 15:15:33 It got merged into MeeGo, we all know this .. Feb 15 15:17:10 is the n900 out of production now? Looking at online dealers in sweden it seems to have gone out of stock? Feb 15 15:17:37 SwedeMike: probably months ago :P Feb 15 15:17:42 yes and it's unsupported too Feb 15 15:17:53 good device tho Feb 15 15:18:04 yeah, I'm actually still quite happy with it. Feb 15 15:18:30 alterego: well, there is, as this channel shows :) Feb 15 15:18:53 Has anyone tried to fix a broken usb connector on n900? Feb 15 15:19:32 btw, I'm still running a fairly stock PR1.3, is there a page that lists recommended community patches I should apply, like the gui fix for PR1.2 that I haven't dared installde now that I have PR1.3? Feb 15 15:19:40 edheldil: we are all legacy, well, except those that are also following MeeGo ;) Feb 15 15:22:05 SwedeMike: The Community SSU will contain all the suggested patches. Feb 15 15:22:18 SwedeMike: Installing new versions of random system debs just causes trouble. Feb 15 15:22:32 SwedeMike: CSSU isn't stable yet, but feel free to get stuck into the testing: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU Feb 15 15:22:36 alterego: they are legacy even more. MeeGo is not even a still born baby Feb 15 15:23:16 the tallest trees in the forest do not grow overnight. Feb 15 15:23:32 at least, that's my understanding of Nokia's plans Feb 15 15:23:52 Jaffa: oki, I'll wait for that then. it's my primary phone so I'm not that keen on testing stuff that doesnt have a high likelyhood of working... Feb 15 15:23:57 MeeGo is still in Nokias plans according to all I read. Feb 15 15:24:09 however, MeeGo is a collaboration Feb 15 15:24:58 Yeah, I'm pretty sure Nokia are not dropping it completely, marginalising it yeah, but tbh, I think I prefer it that way. Feb 15 15:25:32 Because we can make MeeGo flourish ourselves, and if they keep churning out yearly upgrades that utilise our work, I'm well happy. Feb 15 15:26:09 I think Elop is a fool, he said he wanted to reduce software costs by using MS, well, wouldn't it be far better to utilise us like MeeGo already does? Feb 15 15:26:57 it still made me wonder what was going on with meego, since they had hundreds of meego positions open globally and someone mentioned total of 1000 people working on meego in finland alone Feb 15 15:27:17 MeeGo is a community effort, those big corps backing it reduce money through sharing and getting a lot of work done for free. Feb 15 15:27:43 no alterego, most of the work is not yet done for free by a long shot. Feb 15 15:28:24 lcuk: well, tell that to all the devs that write all the software meego is based on. But sure, I see what you're saying. Feb 15 15:29:05 Maybe this is partly our fault for not embracing MeeGo much earlier on, if we'd pushed harder, it might have been "ready" for Elop (pahahahah) Feb 15 15:29:51 Elop is no fool Feb 15 15:30:05 jatt: no him personally? Feb 15 15:30:13 Elop is what the majority from shareholders wanted Feb 15 15:30:21 Elop REPRESENTS nokia Feb 15 15:30:28 Really ... Feb 15 15:30:31 yes Feb 15 15:30:34 respect the old man Feb 15 15:30:38 alterego: My understanding is: Nokia created Maemo as its flagship OS, but before finishing it enough, a deal with Intel opened, promising CPU vendor backing. So they jumped ship for MeeGo, but then deal with MS opened, promising app market, and hence the possiblity to have the sane as Apple, so they jumped ship for MS. MeeGo will be sunk when they buy a cheap torpedo :( Feb 15 15:30:41 Well, I'm not entirely convinced. Feb 15 15:31:08 edheldil: no, that's not what happened :P Feb 15 15:31:10 it's true Feb 15 15:31:14 I personally do not see why a more blended approach cannot be achieved. Feb 15 15:31:32 but thats enough from me on the subject Feb 15 15:32:13 alterego: it's not? Why do you think so? Feb 15 15:32:27 at least, it makes sense financially Feb 15 15:32:52 (for some definitions of "make sense" ;-)) Feb 15 15:33:06 edheldil: maemo was an r&d project for Nokia to develop a more competitive UX based on GNU/Linux, maemo 5 was the 4/5 step in this road. Harmattan was the 5th stage, which replaced Gtk/Hildon with a full Qt based UX, Nokia then decided they'd join up with Intel and merge their Maemo with Moblin, what you see in MeeGo handset is Harmattan. Feb 15 15:34:06 The UX, MeeGo Touch Framework was originally DUI which is Harmattan Maemos. Feb 15 15:34:58 do we have a use-case for opening up the fremantle MCE code? Feb 15 15:35:03 So you see, MeeGo wasn't exactly a "jump ship" it was an evolution, maybe more like a leap of evolution, but it was still a good progression (imo) because it openned up the platform for all of us. Feb 15 15:35:09 or is it just a nice-to-have thing? Feb 15 15:37:41 jonwil: I *think* the most common reason given is "to be able to update the kernel"; but I'm not an expert on the interactions of mce with the rest of the system. Feb 15 15:37:51 alterego: perhaps, thank you for clarification. It still seems a bit too drastic to me, but hey, I am not Columbus developer :) Feb 15 15:42:07 jonwil: mce is responsible for e.g managing kbd backlight. So yes, for sure we want MCE opened, so we can change this. Although there's meego mce now, which seems close enough to fremantle version of mce, except for the missing plugins - at least that's my take on it Feb 15 15:42:08 :) Feb 15 15:42:43 edheldil: meh, drastic, maybe. But I don't see it, because Maemo/MeeGo/Moblin they're mostly all just GNU/Linux. Feb 15 15:44:05 The rebase caused a lot of, well, drama, moving from deb to rpm. But look what we gained. Full bash, open components that were otherwise closed in MeeGo, daily & weekly builds of the platform, the ability to make it better ourselves and not rely on just one entity to listen and in most cases ignore us. Feb 15 15:46:32 alterego: but the switch means that Nokia has no product to ship now, which is the Elop-alleged problem, as far as I can see. Well, it's moot anyway :) Feb 15 15:46:57 fucking elop Feb 15 15:47:24 again respect the dude Feb 15 15:47:28 he did everything right Feb 15 15:47:35 haters Feb 15 15:48:11 -20%, I can see that Feb 15 15:48:33 edheldil: No, Elops problem is that he is impatient. Harmattan was/is pretty much ready. Feb 15 15:48:39 He scrapped it. Feb 15 15:49:20 Now he's saying that MeeGo device will appear later this year, well, to me that sounds pretty strange, unless they're going to go proper MeeG, rather than Harmattan. Feb 15 15:49:47 they will do a meego device but only geeks/nerds will buy it Feb 15 15:50:07 jatt: I'm happy with that. Feb 15 15:50:20 jatt: Respect? Elop is the worst kind of capitalist there is, the microsoft kind. People like him is what has held technology back for the last 20 years. (or maybe I just feel way too strongly about his) Feb 15 15:50:41 yeah you will be happy but nokia won't give a damn and treat the product as a toy and nothing serious Feb 15 15:51:02 dude he is not working alone most of nokia's shareholders back him up Feb 15 15:51:16 those people deserve respect they are no idiots Feb 15 15:51:29 jatt, here to troll? Feb 15 15:51:30 isn't one of the highest grossing apps on Nokia Ovi a toy? Feb 15 15:52:21 hopefully it will be treated like a toy - because if it can survive a group of 3 year old kids then it can survive in your drunken stupor Feb 15 15:52:45 he did everything right <-- yep, everything he did was indeed right, apparently when you do right things, stocks drop 15% Feb 15 15:53:09 :) Feb 15 15:53:20 I like the guy Feb 15 15:53:25 jatt: really? In case you have not noticed... Microsoft is atleast among the younger generation considered kind of like your dads computer. Something the old guys use. Microsoft is dead and everything they touch will also die unfortunately. Feb 15 15:54:39 let's give MS a try, maybe it works out who knows? Feb 15 15:54:48 it won't work out Feb 15 15:54:56 the kind of funny thing is that their business (revenue etc) is still growing Feb 15 15:55:03 let's give MeeGo a try then, too Feb 15 15:55:06 that's really... odd. Software business is odd. Feb 15 15:55:15 maybe it works out who knows Feb 15 15:55:45 MohammadAG: check out the tmo thread :) Feb 15 15:55:56 abill seems to be losing his mind again. Feb 15 15:56:10 jatt: http://www.winrumors.com/microsofts-mobile-deals-failed-in-the-past-will-nokia-change-that/ Feb 15 15:56:20 alterego: link? Feb 15 15:56:20 Weird hw he dissapeared for a few months and suddenly comes back on Friday gone ... Feb 15 15:56:43 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=947125 Feb 15 15:56:58 so MS OS sucks? Feb 15 15:56:59 alterego, he came back after the announcement Feb 15 15:57:41 MohammadAG: obviously ;) Feb 15 15:58:02 He's so funny. Feb 15 15:59:06 jatt, ms sucks Feb 15 15:59:21 so nokia is doomed? Feb 15 15:59:45 jatt: not yet. Feb 15 16:00:02 It's too early to tell, and if they get really bad, MS will eat them up. Feb 15 16:00:18 who cares? Feb 15 16:00:35 I do I bought a damn expensive n900 Feb 15 16:00:37 damn Feb 15 16:00:42 there'll be another company instead of Nokia who will make MeeGo succeed Feb 15 16:00:56 the N900 is still alive Feb 15 16:01:11 MohammadAG: yes, but that's not thanks to Nokia Feb 15 16:01:18 jatt: I don't see the relavence of you owning an N900 and the current state of affairs :P Feb 15 16:01:28 I have 2 Feb 15 16:01:32 Venemo, obviously Feb 15 16:01:35 I agree, the last feature I found: n900 as internet router through usb Feb 15 16:01:44 coolest thing ever Feb 15 16:01:54 I like them, waiting for something new to come out for me to replace them with. Feb 15 16:02:03 Even if it's a long wait :) Feb 15 16:02:08 alterego :) Feb 15 16:02:26 I want 3 Feb 15 16:02:51 ok, list nearly finished. Items on the list are the SMS stuff (cell broadcast and other things), the issue with non-standard WPA keys and passphrases (which means opening up the connectivity UI which could lead to other enhancements as well), libbmeipc stuff (i.e. being able to get battery status and info) Feb 15 16:02:53 MohammadAG: I wouldn't say no :P Feb 15 16:03:07 MohammadAG: though not sure what I'd do with a third Feb 15 16:03:58 alterego, not for myself Feb 15 16:03:59 better control over which network the phone connects to (i.e. the libicd_policy stuff), MCE stuff and the correct cellmo headers for the N900 (the ones in the QT SDK are not a 100% match in some cases, nor are the ones on www.wirelessmodemapi.com) Feb 15 16:04:00 I only need 2 :P Feb 15 16:04:16 http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Open_development/Why_the_closed_packages&action=submit Feb 15 16:04:18 Bug updated Feb 15 16:04:23 if I could get 2 more, I'd give them to the project members Feb 15 16:04:28 then give them back in may/june Feb 15 16:04:29 I mean wiki page updated Feb 15 16:04:46 Very noble .) Feb 15 16:04:51 ... :) Feb 15 16:05:09 though I'd appreciate an ideapad :P Feb 15 16:05:12 oh wait, not updated yet, wiki was being strange Feb 15 16:05:14 now its updated Feb 15 16:05:16 http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_development/Why_the_closed_packages Feb 15 16:05:27 but then again, I can't work on the dialer, which is what I want Feb 15 16:05:36 I already made a quick patch for the dialer Feb 15 16:05:38 listing the 6 or so license-change-requests that are still relavent Feb 15 16:05:42 can't build it, so can't test it Feb 15 16:05:58 all the rest I found are either no longer relavent (e.g. already solved) Feb 15 16:06:06 or have no concrete use case Feb 15 16:06:17 or are for things that remain closed even in meego Feb 15 16:06:19 like BME Feb 15 16:06:30 MohammadAG: MeeGo dialer? or Maemo dialer (thought that is closed) Feb 15 16:07:06 I think I will write a wiki page linking to all source relavent to maemo not in the repositories Feb 15 16:07:12 MeeGo dialer Feb 15 16:07:36 MohammadAG: nice Feb 15 16:07:47 I can't test it, so it'll be lost somewhere Feb 15 16:08:04 e.g. http://maemo.org/packages/view/dsme-thermalobject-surface/ has a link from its package page to the repositories and source tarball Feb 15 16:08:20 whereas http://maemo.org/packages/view/osso-chess-ui/ does not even though its open source Feb 15 16:09:12 it's not FOSS afaik Feb 15 16:09:20 it is Feb 15 16:09:24 osso-chess-ui IS foss Feb 15 16:09:35 really? Feb 15 16:09:39 that's new Feb 15 16:09:43 I have osso-chess-ui_1.8.3-1+0m5.tar.gz on my hdd right now Feb 15 16:09:45 with code in it Feb 15 16:10:12 its GPL Feb 15 16:10:14 cool Feb 15 16:10:53 MohammadAG: why can't you test? Feb 15 16:10:55 thats one of the items that will go on this wiki page Feb 15 16:11:14 Venemo, missing libs Feb 15 16:11:20 apparently, I need OBS or something Feb 15 16:11:27 MohammadAG: mhm Feb 15 16:11:32 MohammadAG: so why don't you Feb 15 16:11:58 also, can't get zypper to install them since it can't find them Feb 15 16:18:06 hmmm, interesting, maemo-security-certman-applet is in non-free and has no source code yet the license file in the .deb claims its LGPL... Feb 15 16:18:42 oh wait I found its code Feb 15 16:19:42 wait no, thats not its code Feb 15 16:19:56 thats just something saying "its dead" Feb 15 16:29:50 ~ping Feb 15 16:29:50 ~pong Feb 15 16:32:12 btw is there still a need for the flasher source code/info or did that need disappear? Feb 15 16:33:03 Android, Android, Android. Feb 15 16:33:07 It's inescapable. Feb 15 16:33:34 Android=Java=Crap Feb 15 16:33:55 mm, the 'droids still don't have a decent shell in them (: Feb 15 16:34:03 isn't there a "free" version of skype on n900? Feb 15 16:34:06 pain in the arse to use Feb 15 16:34:15 skype on the n900 is awesome Feb 15 16:35:25 I refuse to buy an Android handset from any vendor who isn't 100% in compliance with the GPL and releases source code for new handset concurrently with the handset release (as is required by the GPL) Feb 15 16:35:42 until you join a skype group chat and your n900 makes a new message noise every time someone says something on the chat Feb 15 16:35:58 I use it for skype out and it's awesome Feb 15 16:36:15 you want skype group chat->use the computer! Feb 15 16:36:21 Kegetys: about that, do you know how to edit vibration patterns? Feb 15 16:36:21 eh, skype's n900 page > Buy now > they're actually selling you a n900 >_< eh, wat, where do I just download it Feb 15 16:36:37 jatt: so you'd need two skype accounts Feb 15 16:36:39 Kegetys: i'm trying to work around that by setting it to make no noise or vibration for instant messages Feb 15 16:36:45 BCMM: no idea Feb 15 16:37:07 the impressive thing is how much CPU time it manages to use for group chat... Feb 15 16:37:44 sig^: you dont download it Feb 15 16:38:04 oh, is it really built in Feb 15 16:38:10 yes Feb 15 16:38:54 oh, there it is ^__^ I haven't even tried doing this social media thing with it Feb 15 16:39:44 BCMM: I suppose it's the try hard not to lose an sms goal sort of conflicting with the group chat volume there. or something Feb 15 16:40:13 sms has a different sound to IM, so it might have a different vibration pattern too Feb 15 16:40:27 which social media thing Feb 15 16:41:01 frals, Kathy has asked about an MMS backend to liqpostcard (since she knows it is just a pretty UI and needs delivery service) Feb 15 16:41:09 oh, its really build in, damn ;D never seen the last months Feb 15 16:41:35 I mean the perf part, like in might sync the world a few times per msg or something ;) Feb 15 16:41:44 I think we spoke about this years ago when I wrote it Feb 15 16:41:56 but since I sent Tracy a postcard yesterday on twitter she enquired Feb 15 16:42:30 lcuk: fmms got a dbus interface for sending Feb 15 16:42:38 ooh cool Feb 15 16:42:41 for reference: http://liqbase.net/liq.20110214_135930.liqpostcard.scr.png Feb 15 16:42:42 or well, it opens up the sender ui with a predefined attachment/message/subject Feb 15 16:42:50 that seems reasonable Feb 15 16:44:05 its se.frals.fmms.send_via_service s:pathtofile s:subject s:messagetext Feb 15 16:44:10 frals, this is the output: http://liqbase.net/liq.20110214_135957.Tracy,%20I%20love%20you%20loads,%20Gary%20x%20x.postcard.png Feb 15 16:44:28 what pretty flowers Feb 15 16:44:37 trip0, they are her favourite :) Feb 15 16:44:47 even better!@ Feb 15 16:46:42 BCMM: vibra patterns are in /etc/mce/mce.ini Feb 15 16:47:50 thanks frals, I did think you had it covered. how would I know that MMS actually got sent (snce DBUS is non blocking) Feb 15 16:48:02 you wont ;) Feb 15 16:48:14 ie, generate image, call fmms, do its stuff, cleanup temp image. Feb 15 16:48:17 but its gonna popup the fmms ui for sending so the user will know ;) Feb 15 16:48:25 that part I know Feb 15 16:49:00 when launched with send_via_service fmms copies the file to its own temp storage so as long as its available for ~10seconds while fmms is starting you can remove it Feb 15 16:49:05 frals, so the images generated from postcard should just be stored in MyDocs Feb 15 16:49:22 cool Feb 15 16:49:30 .. it should, at least ;) Feb 15 16:49:51 haha Feb 15 16:50:13 well it currently saves it to ~/.liqbase/..somewhere already Feb 15 16:50:16 so that will be ok Feb 15 16:50:35 * GeneralAntilles facepalms at PeterMeeGo on Twitter. Feb 15 16:51:57 Finally saw the themed tablet ux :) Feb 15 16:54:03 http://nokiaplane.com/ Feb 15 16:55:42 intel/meego has a lot more presence here than nokia Feb 15 16:58:39 Nokia's got shit to show. Feb 15 16:58:45 Just like they've had shit to show for the past year+. Feb 15 16:59:01 and will, apparently, have shit to show for the foreseeable future. Feb 15 16:59:04 This is their problem. Feb 15 16:59:44 dude respect nokia Feb 15 17:00:02 yea indeed Feb 15 17:00:17 Elop's decision might no be popular among geeks/nerds but he did what nokia's shareholders wanted Feb 15 17:00:46 that's why the share drop 15% ? Feb 15 17:00:50 Elop responsibility is with the shareholders and not with zealots Feb 15 17:00:53 it will go up Feb 15 17:00:55 you will see Feb 15 17:02:45 nokiaplane è fantastico Feb 15 17:03:16 s/shareholders/north-american shareholders affiliated with microsoft/ Feb 15 17:03:29 whoops, sorry for the message before, wrong window Feb 15 17:03:56 it doesn't matter dude, nokia is a corporation it doesn't give a damn about some nerds Feb 15 17:04:12 Elop did the right decision Feb 15 17:04:32 nokia needs _accountability_ Feb 15 17:04:46 nokia *is* the world leader in mobile phones Feb 15 17:04:50 some nerd hacking in his mom's basement has no accountability Feb 15 17:04:54 a corporation like ms has Feb 15 17:05:07 jatt: stop stating bullshit here! I fnokia's shareholders wanted Elop to act this way, then damn tell me why the rating dropped by a 20% during 2 days after his announcement! Feb 15 17:05:24 I have no idea dude Feb 15 17:05:28 but it will go up Feb 15 17:05:34 jatt: also it's no up to you to teach chanops about respect Feb 15 17:06:36 bottom line: Though I respect your opinion, I will consider kicking or banning you on next psoting where you instrucz other people to respect somebody Feb 15 17:07:38 yeah, instruczing other people in a psot is not cool Feb 15 17:07:59 kerio: stfu :-P Feb 15 17:09:54 ok, but don't be so harsh on Elop he is trying his best for the company, peace Feb 15 17:12:30 yeah, for his company Feb 15 17:12:32 microsoft Feb 15 17:15:49 heheh Feb 15 17:16:31 what's funny Feb 15 17:16:49 well if you go back further his company is adobe Feb 15 17:16:59 Elop's Feb 15 17:17:01 ? Feb 15 17:17:05 afaik yes Feb 15 17:17:15 the guy is a maverik Feb 15 17:17:15 maybe he secretly wants nokia to start putting juniper hardware in nokia devices! Feb 15 17:17:19 conspiracy!one Feb 15 17:17:22 just what nokia needs Feb 15 17:17:26 he has been everywhere Feb 15 17:17:52 he is a good mole Feb 15 17:18:51 i know what agile move would save the company Feb 15 17:19:27 what Feb 15 17:20:02 android execution environment in meego Feb 15 17:20:12 won't happen Feb 15 17:20:19 i know that Feb 15 17:20:41 we know what will happen Feb 15 17:20:44 nokia is like 5 years late Feb 15 17:20:48 behind the iPhone Feb 15 17:20:53 there is no way to catch them up Feb 15 17:20:59 it's ahead of the iphone Feb 15 17:21:01 see maemo Feb 15 17:21:04 lol Feb 15 17:21:12 I have an n900 running maemo Feb 15 17:21:21 and is like years behind the IPhone Feb 15 17:21:24 I love my n900 tho Feb 15 17:21:32 what is 'years behind' Feb 15 17:21:34 5 years behind in terms of what? Feb 15 17:21:38 technology Feb 15 17:21:40 software Feb 15 17:21:42 design Feb 15 17:21:45 lol Feb 15 17:21:45 everything Feb 15 17:21:49 use sentences, baby Feb 15 17:21:51 weight Feb 15 17:21:55 I am telling you Feb 15 17:21:57 baby Feb 15 17:22:01 you're trolling me Feb 15 17:22:04 nope Feb 15 17:22:15 baby Feb 15 17:22:16 look above Feb 15 17:22:23 the twitter generation can't even type a thought Feb 15 17:22:31 crippled Feb 15 17:22:58 technology... maybe the form factor of the n900. that's it though. cpu and camera (both) are right on even today Feb 15 17:23:08 weight Feb 15 17:23:12 battery life Feb 15 17:23:27 software... I'm still not buying it. maybe iOS is snappier and prettier, but not 5 years so Feb 15 17:23:41 you are in denial Feb 15 17:23:55 i'm not buying the battery life either. iphone lasts about a day, same as the n900 Feb 15 17:24:05 (given the same usage pattern) Feb 15 17:24:17 so why is the Iphone so successful? Feb 15 17:24:22 nokia did something wrong for sure Feb 15 17:24:31 they are catching up Feb 15 17:24:36 no, i'm not in denial. the fact that I can multitask is iOS + 2 years ahead Feb 15 17:24:50 iphone is successful for 2 reasons Feb 15 17:24:53 primarily, because it's marketed well and now has momentum Feb 15 17:24:58 pupnik, baby, what do you think? Feb 15 17:25:00 1) it's pretty (hardware and software) Feb 15 17:25:03 true Feb 15 17:25:10 2) it's got the apple hype machine behind it Feb 15 17:25:13 and well i say marketed well i mean markets on some points that people dont know other phones can already do Feb 15 17:25:15 true Feb 15 17:25:33 er? Feb 15 17:25:33 isn't alien dalvik moving along well? Feb 15 17:25:33 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2379666,00.asp Feb 15 17:25:34 jatt: so you think that won't work? Feb 15 17:25:35 they're supposedly demoing it at MWC, are there any reports of whether they did or not, and what it looked like? Feb 15 17:25:36 or did i miss something Feb 15 17:25:49 when you are first to the game with reason 1, reason 2 isn't hard to achieve Feb 15 17:25:57 once you own mindshare, your gold Feb 15 17:26:02 it's another layer of indirection it will be slow as hell Feb 15 17:26:06 rm_work: their booth doesn't look welcoming to random passengers Feb 15 17:26:35 vm over vm over vm argh Feb 15 17:26:38 the video of it at the bottom of that article is running on n900 and looks good... Feb 15 17:26:40 that's crap Feb 15 17:26:45 do the right thing on metal Feb 15 17:26:47 right away Feb 15 17:27:03 jatt: that is completely untrue Feb 15 17:27:27 you can run java applications over a vm which runs over an emulator which runs over an abstraction layer which runs wtf Feb 15 17:27:42 java applications run on one vm Feb 15 17:27:47 yeah Feb 15 17:27:51 moin Feb 15 17:27:51 until there is fine Feb 15 17:27:59 but put another vm on top Feb 15 17:28:00 and another Feb 15 17:28:03 sorry was lagging apparently Feb 15 17:28:05 then things become silly Feb 15 17:28:06 why is there another vm on top? Feb 15 17:28:14 which one? Feb 15 17:28:14 just caught like two pages of chat Feb 15 17:28:26 Dalvik is the VM Feb 15 17:28:29 there is no other Feb 15 17:28:43 and it runs on the arm processors? Feb 15 17:28:49 obviously Feb 15 17:28:57 alright then everything is cool Feb 15 17:28:57 Dalvik is native code Feb 15 17:29:07 which is why that confused me Feb 15 17:29:07 android execution environment in meego Feb 15 17:29:07 won't happen Feb 15 17:29:16 it already happened Feb 15 17:29:22 just not public yet Feb 15 17:29:23 send me the repository to install it Feb 15 17:29:28 what? Feb 15 17:29:30 not public yet? Feb 15 17:29:33 wtf is that Feb 15 17:29:39 how will they test it? Feb 15 17:30:00 is it just a chroot? Feb 15 17:30:04 *they* test it however they want. we don't until they make it public Feb 15 17:30:29 this is just vaporware Feb 15 17:30:34 like duke nukem forever Feb 15 17:31:00 right. until they release it Feb 15 17:31:09 when will it be released? Feb 15 17:31:48 bye Feb 15 17:32:13 well, may for dnf Feb 15 17:33:47 jatt: well they released a public demo Feb 15 17:34:14 may 6th is the release date Feb 15 17:35:18 damn timeouts Feb 15 17:36:21 luckily, Nokia got the N9 right, so we have a replacement for DNF Feb 15 17:37:04 ? Feb 15 17:37:45 just saw alien dalvik Feb 15 17:37:45 its real Feb 15 17:38:12 javispedro: so will we be able to have it, and what's the deal with licensing? Feb 15 17:38:21 oem only Feb 15 17:38:39 not even app developers, which seems like a weird decision to me... Feb 15 17:39:14 (told them exactly that) Feb 15 17:39:17 it uses code from the real Dalvik, right? isn't that Apache licensed? Feb 15 17:39:23 strange Feb 15 17:39:31 nope it's their own code Feb 15 17:39:38 oh, looks like i don't understand the apache license Feb 15 17:39:51 it's more BSD-ish Feb 15 17:39:55 NokiaPlanB eh... Feb 15 17:40:13 but its exactly as in the demo video Feb 15 17:40:42 slightly faster than the real droid phone they chose Feb 15 17:40:56 so what stops an unmodified Dalvik VM running on top of a proper linux kernel? Feb 15 17:41:52 or is the main problem making it render to X-windows? Feb 15 17:42:13 javispedro, I packed some flash grenades in your bag, I trust you can infiltrate their stand and get a device with alien dalvik Feb 15 17:43:29 MohammadAG: aw, I'm out already ;) Feb 15 17:44:17 javispedro, then can you head to finland and take care of elop? Feb 15 17:44:22 you used all the flashbangs already? how? Feb 15 17:44:40 BCMM: see the discussion here: http://ymartin59.free.fr/wordpress/index.php/2010/06/12/android-hacking-target-n900-maemo/ Feb 15 17:44:41 btw no native android apps Feb 15 17:44:57 yes that's the problem with their approach Feb 15 17:45:17 one question Feb 15 17:45:19 * DocScrutinizer sighs on geberal chanop directive to not touch /ignore Feb 15 17:45:28 general Feb 15 17:45:39 theoretically, wouldn't it be possible to run a VM with any OS you want? Feb 15 17:45:41 android included Feb 15 17:46:02 it was already demoed by VMWare on an N810 Feb 15 17:46:13 have you used dosbox MohammadAG ? Feb 15 17:46:24 that emulates DOS, not any OS Feb 15 17:46:32 have you? Feb 15 17:46:43 No, ok. Feb 15 17:46:57 iirc, someone managed to boot OS X, very slowly, in a VM on an n900 Feb 15 17:47:07 yes, I have Feb 15 17:47:36 yay Feb 15 17:47:43 cu later chaps Feb 15 17:48:15 BCMM, yeah, took 15 minutes to open about :p Feb 15 17:48:20 but that's emulation Feb 15 17:48:28 MohammadAG: forget about running another modern phone OS in a VM. It would be uncompetitively slow. Feb 15 17:48:47 dosbox = emulation Feb 15 17:48:54 dosbox is an emulator, not a VM Feb 15 17:49:01 running android in a chroot is not emulation Feb 15 17:49:09 bingo Feb 15 17:49:19 though I'm talking about something like VMWare Player Feb 15 17:49:25 that's emulation Feb 15 17:49:35 virtualization Feb 15 17:49:39 no Feb 15 17:49:41 VMWare player is not emulation Feb 15 17:49:42 that's virtualisation Feb 15 17:49:47 and dosbox isn't emulator Feb 15 17:49:51 I'm running an X86 OS, on an X86 machine Feb 15 17:49:54 dosbox is a vm Feb 15 17:49:58 on x86 Feb 15 17:50:04 hmm Feb 15 17:50:16 or that was dosemu Feb 15 17:50:42 dosbox is a PC emulator Feb 15 17:50:51 nm Feb 15 17:50:58 there was couple does emulators/vm's for linux one of them was using virtual mode Feb 15 17:51:12 s/does/dos/ Feb 15 17:51:17 regardless, that's x86 on arm Feb 15 17:51:33 yes Feb 15 17:51:34 not arm on arm Feb 15 17:51:42 and it's slow Feb 15 17:59:16 how might i press Alt on N810's terminal? Feb 15 17:59:16 wheee Feb 15 18:01:35 LjL: you can bind keys to the status bar with gconf settings Feb 15 18:05:25 err... ran out of battery :( Feb 15 18:06:14 well, as I was saying... no native apps but he also said "yet". So seems that they are emulating more of Android in the near future. Feb 15 18:12:17 chanserv??? Feb 15 18:12:35 WTF?! Feb 15 18:13:11 -Martinp23- [Global Notice] Hi folks! As you'll have noticed, we just lost about half the network due to hub issues. We're trying to put together what we can! Thanks for your patience. Feb 15 18:13:19 aah Feb 15 18:13:23 yeah thanks Feb 15 18:13:29 yw Feb 15 18:13:47 javispedro, since when does half of freenode's network run on your battery? Feb 15 18:13:48 it wouldn't be bad idea for them to have some fault tolerant hubs Feb 15 18:13:50 like two hubs Feb 15 18:14:42 oO Feb 15 18:14:50 MohammadAG: do you have links to that android thing Feb 15 18:14:53 * DocScrutinizer wonders idly what's the definition od hub in a dsitributed-servers infrasructure Feb 15 18:15:59 http://www.myriadgroup.com/Media-Centre/News/Myriad-Announces-Alien%20Dalvik-Enables-Android-Apps-to-Run-on-Non-Android-Phones.aspx Feb 15 18:16:08 MohammadAG: probably thats why my battery runs out so fast Feb 15 18:16:16 download links i mean Feb 15 18:16:28 well, let's say I don't care enough about IRC to learn Feb 15 18:16:31 as long as there is no download links i'm not going to believe in that Feb 15 18:16:46 jacekowski, no one has it Feb 15 18:17:03 then it doesn't exist Feb 15 18:18:25 jacekowski: they gave me a demo :) Feb 15 18:18:42 javispedro: share it Feb 15 18:19:05 I mean a live demo Feb 15 18:19:06 on a N900 Feb 15 18:19:54 (that was also beeping due to low battery. this is a plague...) Feb 15 18:20:15 where are you? Feb 15 18:20:24 exiting mwc2011 Feb 15 18:21:03 where is it Feb 15 18:21:05 barcelona Feb 15 18:21:05 hmm Feb 15 18:21:08 yep Feb 15 18:21:16 hmm Feb 15 18:21:36 * javispedro watches jacekowski teleport Feb 15 18:22:00 javispedro, I don't remember hildon stuff, do you what the text part in Settings > About product is called? Feb 15 18:22:05 HildonTextEntry? Feb 15 18:22:22 nox-, thats single line Feb 15 18:22:30 s/nox/no Feb 15 18:22:36 hmm Feb 15 18:22:39 hildontextview if anything Feb 15 18:22:51 I'd expect it to be called buffer or something Feb 15 18:23:16 hmm, and i could have been in barcelona Feb 15 18:23:16 for almost free Feb 15 18:23:16 if i only knew Feb 15 18:24:16 \o/ Feb 15 18:24:27 :-( Feb 15 18:24:46 * javispedro gives up with freenode... either way I could just give the thing a few minutes of charge Feb 15 18:24:46 so it's beeping again, bye. Feb 15 18:24:46 ...The palates generation of new teeth will continue until the entire palate has been covered, proceeding down the victims throat and esophagus... Feb 15 18:26:46 RST38h: moar bizarre plz Feb 15 18:27:24 ...should be 'fed' on a bimonthly basis; standard feed consists of a wooden fishing vessel, typically at least 15 metres in length and preferably in a dilapidated condition... Feb 15 18:28:20 sounds like sex pistols' version of moby dick Feb 15 18:28:44 Doc: SCP-421. Feb 15 18:28:58 whatever that means Feb 15 18:29:43 heheh Feb 15 18:37:16 hmm Feb 15 18:37:31 I wonder how I could get CSSU version number Feb 15 18:37:46 Why do people freak out when you escape stuff? Feb 15 18:37:56 Like when you do this= Feb 15 18:37:57 /s/\=/\? Feb 15 18:38:26 because you are only supposed to escape escapeable characters Feb 15 18:38:38 that was an example. Feb 15 18:38:42 how do I read a file in C? Feb 15 18:38:53 errwut? Feb 15 18:39:03 in Qt/C++ I use QFile Feb 15 18:39:10 fopen(), read() ?? Feb 15 18:39:24 open and read Feb 15 18:39:31 and what's the FILE *fd thing I see in some sources? Feb 15 18:39:33 or fopen and fread Feb 15 18:39:44 a FILE obviously Feb 15 18:39:45 MohammadAG: it's a filedescriptor Feb 15 18:39:53 nothing esle matters to you Feb 15 18:39:58 right, what should I #include? Feb 15 18:39:59 else Feb 15 18:40:05 actually, nvm, man fopen Feb 15 18:40:05 stdio Feb 15 18:40:15 MohammadAG: but you have to know two things there are two sets of functions Feb 15 18:40:28 MohammadAG: open/read/write/seek Feb 15 18:40:42 MohammadAG: fope/fread/fwrite/fseek Feb 15 18:40:45 s/seek/lseek/ Feb 15 18:41:20 MohammadAG: yeah lseek instead of seek Feb 15 18:41:20 actually, I only need to check if the file exists Feb 15 18:41:29 MohammadAG: then stat is way to go Feb 15 18:41:36 man 3 stat Feb 15 18:41:41 fstat() Feb 15 18:41:49 stat Feb 15 18:41:54 hmm Feb 15 18:42:16 you have to open file to use fstat Feb 15 18:42:20 what's the deal with these man numbers. something about different types of programs, but I never really realized when you have to use them Feb 15 18:42:27 for stat you just stat file by path/name Feb 15 18:42:39 korhojoa: different sections Feb 15 18:43:01 for example section 3 has all programmer stuff for C Feb 15 18:43:05 korhojoa: you usually don't need to use them Feb 15 18:43:22 and if you type just man open Feb 15 18:43:28 it will open open from section one Feb 15 18:43:33 NAME openvt - start a program on a new virtual terminal (VT). Feb 15 18:43:46 but open in section three is Feb 15 18:43:50 NAME open - open a file Feb 15 18:43:57 it's like a chapter sort of thing Feb 15 18:44:27 jr@halley:~> man open Feb 15 18:44:28 Man: find all matching manual pages Feb 15 18:44:30 * open (n) Feb 15 18:44:32 open (2) Feb 15 18:44:33 open (3p) Feb 15 18:44:34 open (3pm) Feb 15 18:44:36 Man: Welche Manual-Seite wollen Sie haben? Feb 15 18:44:37 :-P Feb 15 18:44:50 ugh german Feb 15 18:45:15 jacekowski: I was too lazy to type LANG=C man open Feb 15 18:45:19 sup all Feb 15 18:46:05 where is Documents and Audio folder? they do not appear when mounting the N900 Feb 15 18:46:19 smhar: it's .documends Feb 15 18:46:21 smhar: and .sounds Feb 15 18:46:28 korhojoa: man man Feb 15 18:46:32 is your friend Feb 15 18:46:45 man woman Feb 15 18:46:50 or woman man Feb 15 18:47:11 DocScrutinizer: i tried man woman Feb 15 18:47:20 but nothing happened Feb 15 18:47:24 wouldn't this work? http://pastebin.com/nbu1A1QS Feb 15 18:47:31 i once wanted to read the man page for "Boot Up Manager", but i didn't have it installed, so I googled "man bum". Big mistake :( Feb 15 18:47:49 I guess the correct answer should've been "there's no help for women" Feb 15 18:48:10 need to figure out a way to read version number Feb 15 18:48:24 ugh Feb 15 18:48:24 fnordianslip: i just tried it Feb 15 18:48:32 Thieves push Pepsi bottle up man's bum | Metro.co.uk Feb 15 18:48:32 21 Nov 2007 ... It doesn't take a doctor to work out the results of this X-ray. Feb 15 18:48:32 www.metro.co.uk/.../76540-thieves-push-pepsi-bottle-up-mans-bum - Similar Feb 15 18:49:23 mind you, this was at work, so the requests would have been logged too Feb 15 18:50:07 i'm at home and bt is probably logging it anyways Feb 15 18:50:11 or some echelon shit Feb 15 18:50:13 I was wondering if we can run webOS apps on the N900 Feb 15 18:50:17 (not just the games) Feb 15 18:51:15 jacekowski: echelon segfaulted on parsing the tap of this chan, at 2008-11-23 17:51:33 GMT Feb 15 18:51:56 DocScrutinizer: what happened then? Feb 15 18:52:06 MohammadAG: you think it's possible? Feb 15 18:52:21 HtheB: I bet the emulator doesn't care if it's labeled game Feb 15 18:52:38 im talking about apps :) not games Feb 15 18:52:43 ~logs Feb 15 18:52:54 ~log Feb 15 18:52:57 All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/%23maemo/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily. Feb 15 18:52:57 it has been said that log is located at http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/webos-internals/ and the latest log is located at http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/webos-internals.txt Feb 15 18:53:56 oops, I almost missed those .folders and wiped my N900 in the flashing Feb 15 18:54:23 hmm Feb 15 18:54:30 DocScrutinizer: i don't see anything there Feb 15 18:54:30 I guess I must kill jack87, and reclaim log Feb 15 18:55:12 DocScrutinizer, what exactly do you mean by emulator Feb 15 18:55:59 I actually mean the ldpreload framework that javispedro built for running webos games on fremantle Feb 15 18:56:22 the games run on SDL afair Feb 15 18:56:27 yes Feb 15 18:56:41 but the apps, are just like "html" stuff :p Feb 15 18:56:48 just wondeirng if there is someway to run those Feb 15 18:56:49 no Feb 15 18:56:54 there is a lot of native code as well Feb 15 18:56:58 hmm Feb 15 18:57:25 heh Feb 15 18:57:27 just extraced an app, and it all has just .js files Feb 15 18:57:34 wb javispedro Feb 15 18:57:36 HtheB: "Web"OS ;) Feb 15 18:57:41 javispedro: yeah Feb 15 18:57:46 thats why I Was wondering :p Feb 15 18:57:56 HtheB: some apps are Feb 15 18:58:08 HtheB: but there are fully native linux code apps Feb 15 18:58:26 I was looking into the Grooveshark app Feb 15 18:58:31 have a look Feb 15 18:58:31 I asked a HP guy if they were planning on open sourcing Enyo (their JS widget framework) as it seems to work under Firefox. Feb 15 18:58:38 *searching the file* Feb 15 18:58:42 His answer "Maybe. Sign the NDA first" ;) Feb 15 18:59:10 (they have some kind of early preview program where you sign an nda and they ship you the version that runs under desktop browser) Feb 15 19:00:35 javispedro: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?dqqfq7r49ygbleq Feb 15 19:00:53 HtheB: why I feel that is some piracy related link. Feb 15 19:00:58 Ahhaha Feb 15 19:01:03 javispedro: it's free :) Feb 15 19:04:34 javispedro: http://goatse.cx/ Feb 15 19:04:45 also funny is that Nokia doesn't appear in the "Participating MeeGo Ecosystem Partners" thing. Feb 15 19:07:08 why is that funny? Feb 15 19:07:17 we don't participate Feb 15 19:08:00 javispedro: did u check the link? :) Feb 15 19:09:18 HtheB: no, why do I'd do? There's no way I'm recreating Mojo from scratch. Feb 15 19:09:25 xD Feb 15 19:10:52 timeless_xchat: ok, good point. Feb 15 19:10:57 MohammadAG: read version of what? Feb 15 19:12:02 the CSSU Feb 15 19:12:21 dpkg -l mp-fremantle-community-pr is a way, but I need to do it in C Feb 15 19:12:52 You know what.... Feb 15 19:13:27 I wish I was like this guy eating chickn under a rainbow and nothing to worry about anything at all.. just... eating chicken... hmmmmm <3 Feb 15 19:13:34 http://dagobah.net/flash/rainbowchikkunz.swf Feb 15 19:15:59 mohammadag : err, system ()? it wouldn't be a big deal... Feb 15 19:16:22 or if you have gtk, there's a fancier function Feb 15 19:17:07 the only reason I'm doing this in C is because it's plugging into the control panel for the CSSU Feb 15 19:17:40 so yeah, I have gtk Feb 15 19:18:55 MohammadAG: why don't you use Qt for a control panel entry etc.? Feb 15 19:19:08 cause it's slow Feb 15 19:19:11 Meanwhile: Singapore media claim that fake rice is being distributed in the Chinese town of Taiyuan, in Shaanxi province... This "rice" is a mix of potatoes, sweet potatoes, and plastic. It is formed by mixing the potatoes and sweet potatoes into the shape of rice grains, then adding industrial synthetic resins. Feb 15 19:19:13 ic Feb 15 19:19:47 mohammadag : my control panel spawns a script, you can borrow its code Feb 15 19:19:48 RST38h: that's horrifyingly creative... Feb 15 19:20:29 timeless_xchat, that's slow too :P Feb 15 19:20:39 compared to pure gtk applets Feb 15 19:24:33 aha, so microsoft did it Feb 15 19:24:38 visual basic support for wp7 ;) Feb 15 19:24:59 MohammadAG: you're a gifted young programmer, but you obviously need more experience about real cost of certain code sequences, per CPU cycles and per memory footprint Feb 15 19:27:10 a single system() call is negligible for a linear (not looping) interactive app. As is starting a shell to execute a script Feb 15 19:27:31 system() calls a shell, that's why I don't use it Feb 15 19:27:56 what's wrong with calling a shell? Feb 15 19:28:06 and gifted? I only learned programming from #maemo :) Feb 15 19:28:08 even init calls a shell Feb 15 19:28:18 not in android! for performance! Feb 15 19:28:25 hmm. was going to comment on bug 11826 for the community SSU, went to look in "About Product" and the first 3 lines say "null". Is this a known issue? Feb 15 19:28:27 ( ;) ) Feb 15 19:28:38 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/11826 hildon-application-manager random crashes Feb 15 19:28:38 o_O Feb 15 19:28:39 Mohammad: I think you will be ok :) Feb 15 19:28:49 No matter how you have learnt programming Feb 15 19:29:11 http://i51.tinypic.com/jrctxw.jpg <-- first issues already visible, and it's not functional :p Feb 15 19:29:32 is this the flasher for N900: maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2_i386.deb? Feb 15 19:29:39 I already set editing to false, yet the pointer's still visible Feb 15 19:29:56 there may be a separate setting to hide the pointer Feb 15 19:30:01 smhar: yup, afaik Feb 15 19:30:02 mohammadag: i'm only suggesting the spawn call Feb 15 19:30:18 spawn("satan"); Feb 15 19:30:27 MohammadAG: is that a text view? Feb 15 19:31:23 gtk_text_view_set/get_editable and or gtk_text_view_set/get_cursor_visible Feb 15 19:31:40 satan.c: int main(int argc,char *argv[]) { spawn("satan");spawn("satan");spawn("satan");spawn("satan");return(0); } Feb 15 19:32:03 meh Feb 15 19:32:19 RST38h: wrap it in "try { spawn("satan"); } catch (SatanicException& ex) Feb 15 19:33:03 * RST38h secretly hopes this will crash Linux Feb 15 19:33:14 #!/bin/sh \n$0 \n$0 Feb 15 19:33:17 Linux does not look like all that hard to crash Feb 15 19:33:29 err Feb 15 19:33:33 what's up with those two users, they keep netsplitting. Feb 15 19:33:36 #!/bin/sh \n$0& \n$0& Feb 15 19:33:40 RST38h, its a (crude version of) a forkbomb Feb 15 19:33:43 forgot an &, didn't you? Feb 15 19:33:55 nox: thanks, Cpt Obvious Feb 15 19:33:59 :) Feb 15 19:34:51 javispedro: should I enable join/quit msgs on my client? Feb 15 19:35:13 you can skip the second & fwiw Feb 15 19:35:20 Verizon CTO says "meh" to Microsokia Feb 15 19:35:22 DocScrutinizer: nope Feb 15 19:35:58 timeless: yup. Or bracket it with while true; do ... done Feb 15 19:36:34 build phones with nice cpus, radios, screens, and linux. how hard is that Feb 15 19:37:15 pupnik: sounds like android =) Feb 15 19:38:05 sounds like the popular pupnik's philosophical evening monthly Feb 15 19:38:16 sorry i b quiet Feb 15 19:38:38 ;-D Feb 15 19:40:23 javispedro, thanks :D Feb 15 19:49:22 javispedro, it's possible to add an icon there right? Feb 15 19:49:58 something like NOKIA in About Product, was thinking we could add the maemo.org logo Feb 15 19:50:00 http://i53.tinypic.com/otn3td.jpg Feb 15 19:50:55 Can't insert icon into the widget, afaik Feb 15 19:51:01 May be able to insert it into the dialog though Feb 15 19:51:23 you can, but it's like some black art Feb 15 19:52:35 basically textview has some support for "attaching" subwidgets to certain characters Feb 15 19:52:36 just create an image and position it over the text widget Feb 15 19:52:51 you dont have to insert it into the text wigdet Feb 15 19:54:17 javispedro, why not just add a box with the text view and the image to the pannablearea? Feb 15 19:54:54 MohammadAG: well that's why RST38h suggested, not what Nokia does but good enough. Feb 15 19:55:04 s/why/what Feb 15 19:55:50 oh for some reason I didn't read what he said :| Feb 15 19:56:12 * DocScrutinizer wonders what's a panna blearea Feb 15 19:56:19 * javispedro is trying to guess why VMware decided to crash today Feb 15 19:56:56 you were reading about Nokia and MS's partnership Feb 15 19:59:00 um, if GtkPixmap is deprecated what should I use? Feb 15 19:59:05 there are too many files and I am worried.. is this the latest image I should use? RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2.003_PR_COMBINED_003_ARM.bin ? Feb 15 19:59:06 Does anyone happen to know if I can use a micro-sim in a n900. (with extra spacers) Feb 15 19:59:11 I hate gtk's docs, Qt's ones are a lot better tbh Feb 15 19:59:25 SpeedEvil, probably, they're only physically different I think Feb 15 19:59:26 NOK is up! Feb 15 19:59:34 yeah Feb 15 19:59:57 any ideas how to bring it down? I have a bet to win! Feb 15 19:59:58 MohammadAG: GtkImage Feb 15 20:00:17 ah Feb 15 20:01:20 6.80 ASK, not exactly what I call "up" Feb 15 20:01:36 RST38h: it's probably a bunch of people buying stock to support nokiaplanb.com :P Feb 15 20:01:44 I 'bought' at 7.01 :-P Feb 15 20:02:04 it's probably the end of all things Feb 15 20:03:49 i'm having qt mobility thet is extremely slow Feb 15 20:04:02 17 secs for retrieving 10 SMS + every contact Feb 15 20:04:17 10 contacts to be exact Feb 15 20:06:19 i like that RIM got pissy at elops "now it's a three horse race" comment, insisting they're still relevant Feb 15 20:07:34 watching NOK live is as funny as watching current of a LiIon in trickle charge Feb 15 20:11:47 is this the flasher for N900: maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2_i386.deb? will this image flash all N900 ? Feb 15 20:11:48 yeah, but i know the li-ion will keep going up then Feb 15 20:11:55 I mean is this image the 'FIASCO' image: RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2.003_PR_COMBINED_003_ARM.bin ? Feb 15 20:12:03 smhar: I believe so, I just flashed the kernel from that this afternoon Feb 15 20:12:09 scoobertron, not just the kernel, I want to flash the whole system Feb 15 20:12:14 i hope you have all seen http://nokiaplans.com/ btw :) Feb 15 20:12:19 smhar: sorry, I wasn't clear - that is the fiasco image I just didn't flash the whole thing Feb 15 20:13:14 scoobertron, you mean I can use this image and it WIll flash the 'whole thing'? Feb 15 20:13:50 i think nokiaplank.com has a real shot Feb 15 20:14:26 it is down to K now? what will happen when they get to Z? Feb 15 20:14:55 You mean http://nokiaplanz.com/ ? Feb 15 20:15:04 ohhoho Feb 15 20:15:34 they're on to numbers now Feb 15 20:15:36 smhar: it will reflash the root file system - it is all explained here http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware Feb 15 20:15:43 nokiaplan0.com, etc Feb 15 20:16:07 Should this not be fixed in Maemo too? https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12582 Feb 15 20:16:09 Bug 12582: was not found. Feb 15 20:17:07 i'm severely disappointed with nokiaplan9.com .. should've been a plan about switching to plan 9 Feb 15 20:18:10 indeed it should... Feb 15 20:20:44 what a lot of nokiaplanfoo sites. sell nokia, buy shares in domain registrars... Feb 15 20:22:38 ah, fixed in harmattan, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8615 Feb 15 20:22:40 Bug 8615: telepathy-sofiasip uses lots of memory and causes the phone to swap Feb 15 20:23:47 scoobertron, I searched http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php , but could not find any 'vanilla' or 'eMMC' image for pr1.3, how could I flash the whole system? Feb 15 20:27:03 or is this the FIASCO image for PR1.3: RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin ? Feb 15 20:28:09 can a qt PushButton have semi-transparency? Feb 15 20:28:49 http://greatgatsbygame.com/about.html Feb 15 20:28:49 RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin on the page you linked is the latest vanilla emmc image Feb 15 20:29:54 RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin is the latest fiasco image (though it is not labelled as such) Feb 15 20:30:28 reading The Great Gatsby in highschool made me want to stab my eyes out and burn them. Not sure why i would ever want to play a related game, or see a related movie, lol Feb 15 20:30:49 just be glad you never had to read "the scarlet letter" Feb 15 20:33:15 javispedro, hm, that didn't give me the result I wanted Feb 15 20:33:26 what does Nokia do to get the image in there? Feb 15 20:33:42 * javispedro downloads the windows phone 7 sdk in preparation of tomorrow's ms dev event Feb 15 20:33:57 scoobertron, RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin is the Global image, I just downloaded the Middle East image: RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2.003_PR_COMBINED_003_ARM.bin, is there a difference? Feb 15 20:34:28 smhar: sorry, yes - just get whichever one you need Feb 15 20:34:38 smhar: get global one Feb 15 20:34:58 smhar: fewer people use non global Feb 15 20:35:06 so the non global may have random crippled features Feb 15 20:35:12 the indian one for instance iirc is missing skype Feb 15 20:35:23 timeless, good idea Feb 15 20:35:26 generally speaking the global one gets updates faster Feb 15 20:35:38 MohammadAG: probably anchors Feb 15 20:35:43 because the others required pointless approvals by regional managers Feb 15 20:35:58 (ignore the fact that there will almost certainly not be more updates from nokia) Feb 15 20:36:11 basically: stay away from regional or vendor images. *ALWAYS* Feb 15 20:36:31 trx: i'm not you can easily modify it to Feb 15 20:36:34 woo, lag Feb 15 20:36:44 trx: look to see if style sheets by some chance allow it.. Feb 15 20:37:17 MohammadAG: you can grep the binary for "gtk_text_view_add_child" if you want to be sure ;) Feb 15 20:38:14 MohammadAG: is the bug about the homescreen already reported? Feb 15 20:38:38 ieatlint ill check that, ty Feb 15 20:38:58 everytime when I reboot the phone with the CSSU, it removes the picture from the homescreen (photoframe widget) Feb 15 20:39:25 then it's something with that widget Feb 15 20:39:33 also encountered that it resets the browser settings (like the rocker buttons automatically changes into "zoom" ) Feb 15 20:39:46 trx: might be able to do something like set its background colour with an alpha channel Feb 15 20:39:53 MohammadAG: it worked fine before the CSSU Feb 15 20:40:20 HtheB, maybe your /home is f'd up? Feb 15 20:40:25 ieatlint i found this : QPushButton { color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 50%) } ill give it a try Feb 15 20:40:32 could be :( Feb 15 20:40:41 it's not the first time I've seen you complain about lost settings (bluetooth) Feb 15 20:40:46 yeah... Feb 15 20:40:48 Will send my N900 soon Feb 15 20:40:49 I suggest you stop overclocking Feb 15 20:40:50 heh :D Feb 15 20:41:13 hi all Feb 15 20:41:15 ok ok Feb 15 20:41:19 * HtheB Shuts his trap Feb 15 20:41:51 can anyone please tell me what flasher tool to download for a 64 bit fedora 14 for flashing n900? Feb 15 20:42:32 gtk_text_buffer_insert_pixbuf javispedro Feb 15 20:42:50 i'm on this page http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php and it has 32 bit installs for flasher tool. Feb 15 20:43:12 MohammadAG: even better Feb 15 20:43:20 ieatlint it works just fine, ty for the tip :) Feb 15 20:44:01 np, glad it worked :) Feb 15 20:44:43 MohammadAG: *checks docs for that function* is easier than what I had in mind, you can get the text iter from a numerical position or line number (see gtk_text_buffer_get_iter_at_*) Feb 15 20:45:13 javispedro, I'm reading abuot GdkPixbuf atm, can't find a way to make one Feb 15 20:45:17 random-900: probably the tar.gz - check the wiki page I linked for more details Feb 15 20:45:22 MohammadAG: gdk_pixbuf_new_from_file Feb 15 20:45:53 MohammadAG: what do you use to read the gtk+ documentation? Feb 15 20:48:23 javispedro, err, my browser? Feb 15 20:49:02 MohammadAG: download devhelp and libgtk*doc Feb 15 20:49:09 depending on your distro Feb 15 20:50:53 is anyone using transitoncontrol. I just downloaded it and it wont start. Feb 15 20:51:47 error message is ConfigParser.NoOptionError: no option 'angle' in section: rotate Feb 15 20:55:17 javispedro, mind having a look at it? http://pastebin.com/ruvmN3PF Feb 15 20:57:35 well, seems ok for a quick job Feb 15 20:57:37 Is there something wrong with it? Feb 15 20:57:53 you can actually do multiline strings in C, MohammadAG. Feb 15 20:58:07 puts("This is an example\n" Feb 15 20:58:16 When does that stuff get tidied up? Feb 15 20:58:16 "of a multiline string"); Feb 15 20:58:53 javispedro, it doesn't display the image :P Feb 15 20:59:32 I'd stick it into some kind of info-cssu file under /etc and load it in tbh Feb 15 20:59:34 does it exist ("/maemo.org.png") ? Feb 15 20:59:43 of course Feb 15 21:00:08 (weird place to put it) Feb 15 21:00:11 In root? Feb 15 21:01:18 javispedro, I put a lot of things in /, for testing Feb 15 21:01:30 MohammadAG how far did you get with screenlock? Feb 15 21:01:33 since nautilus opens that dir by default when I sftp in Feb 15 21:01:38 ZogG, stalled it for a while Feb 15 21:02:30 MohammadAG: I'd stick something like /etc/cssu-version and load that in for the version string Feb 15 21:03:01 I'd also have the list of contribs loaded from /usr/share/doc/cssu Feb 15 21:03:11 where cssu is your meta package name Feb 15 21:03:34 /usr/share/doc is deleted on each package installation Feb 15 21:04:07 /usr/sbin/docpurge Feb 15 21:04:21 Well, /usr/share/cssu/contributors then :P Feb 15 21:04:23 * javispedro kills bill gates because of fscking slow download server Feb 15 21:04:41 javispedro: downloading the WP7 sdk? :P Feb 15 21:04:56 that includes full visual studio, yes. Feb 15 21:05:09 woof Feb 15 21:05:17 remind me why people like gtk over Qt again? Feb 15 21:05:22 I've got the latest vs Feb 15 21:05:33 MohammadAG: do it in Qt :P Feb 15 21:05:36 MohammadAG: people like suffering. Feb 15 21:05:41 who? =) Feb 15 21:05:47 alterego, slow Feb 15 21:05:52 ok Feb 15 21:05:58 something's weird on Feb 15 21:06:00 wait Feb 15 21:06:19 MohammadAG: GtkTextIter is not supposed to be a pointer Feb 15 21:06:44 (it's a miracle this didn't crash btw) Feb 15 21:07:32 basically, GtkTextIter iter; and gtk_text_buffer_get_start_iter (buffer, &iter); Feb 15 21:08:37 MohammadAG wouldn't be it better to make it just "plugin" way Feb 15 21:08:47 do miracles happen a lot in gtk? it's not the first time I messed up and it worked :P Feb 15 21:08:50 so after you can add any locker you want Feb 15 21:09:03 with GTK anything could happen Feb 15 21:09:06 ZogG, that's the problem Feb 15 21:09:21 cloning everything done by the systemui is annoying Feb 15 21:09:37 is QT Threadsafe? Feb 15 21:09:45 because GTK *explodes* if you use threads Feb 15 21:10:01 MohammadAG why should you clone? Feb 15 21:10:07 rm_work: UI toolkits generally aren't Feb 15 21:10:09 you should cut the original one Feb 15 21:10:15 and make hildon handle the thing Feb 15 21:10:15 javispedro: T_T Feb 15 21:11:07 ZogG, cut is such an easy word Feb 15 21:11:21 yeah but anyway if you want to do it Feb 15 21:11:33 MohammadAG: this miracle happened because you initialized everything to NULL ;) Feb 15 21:12:33 rm_you: threadsafe as along as you don't try to manipulate UI elements Feb 15 21:12:43 rm_you: but then the same is true of gtk+ Feb 15 21:14:15 javispedro, hah Feb 15 21:14:22 * alterego wonders why they disabled bluetooth tethering for data in the N900s connection dialog Feb 15 21:15:14 javispedro, btw, should I clear anything from memory? Feb 15 21:15:37 MohammadAG: yes Feb 15 21:15:58 execute should block Feb 15 21:16:07 yeah, I realize that Feb 15 21:16:13 then when the dialog is closed I should clear Feb 15 21:16:17 but what I should clear :P Feb 15 21:16:32 I installed the theme customiser app and now there is no dark background behind the menu and task switcher Feb 15 21:16:34 that's not entirely true Feb 15 21:16:37 does anyone know how to get it back? Feb 15 21:17:03 MohammadAG: gtk will free a dialog and children when closed (note: not the same as gtk_widget_hide) Feb 15 21:18:02 MohammadAG: either way if plugin_execute has to block, look at gtk_dialog_run Feb 15 21:18:02 javispedro: really? didn't know that :) Feb 15 21:18:30 It doesn't _have_ to block, but it should :) Feb 15 21:18:53 alterego: it's implemented as the default handler for the delete event iirc Feb 15 21:19:11 javispedro, already done that Feb 15 21:19:21 gtk_dialog_run (GTK_DIALOG(dialog)); Feb 15 21:19:34 btw, why does the compiler complain without GTK_DIALOG()? Feb 15 21:20:14 sometimes, I like Nokia Feb 15 21:20:22 I don't have to create a .desktop file to test this Feb 15 21:20:31 I'm just replacing libcpcherry.so :P Feb 15 21:20:32 "dialog" is a "GtkWindow" not a GtkDialog Feb 15 21:20:38 oh Feb 15 21:20:59 then why does it complain without GTK_WINDOW() here gtk_window_set_title (GTK_WINDOW(dialog), "About Maemo 5 Community SSU"); :P Feb 15 21:21:23 because *looks at your snippet* "dialog" is neither Window nor Dialog, it is GtkWidget =) Feb 15 21:21:37 because dialog is not a GtkWindow Feb 15 21:21:47 it's a GtkDialog Feb 15 21:21:50 lol Feb 15 21:22:03 things that happen when you try to program object oriented in ANSI C :P Feb 15 21:22:46 the issue with gtk+ docs is that it's not entirely clear for some functions ownership of objects Feb 15 21:23:16 I guess I'd need to read the code Feb 15 21:25:08 but right now, I need a shower. Feb 15 21:25:23 MohammadAG: you might be missing a g_object_unref(image) after text_buffer_insert_pixbuf Feb 15 21:25:37 so splits continue, Freenode is being hit by a DDoS huh? Feb 15 21:25:51 MohammadAG: because from reading the code, insert_image doesn't take ownership of the image object. Feb 15 21:26:00 *insert_pixbuf Feb 15 21:26:02 javispedro, I was doing it at the end Feb 15 21:26:13 ok Feb 15 21:26:55 yep, works fine if done after the insert Feb 15 21:26:57 ty javispedro :) Feb 15 21:27:18 same for the text buffer btw Feb 15 21:27:28 here hildon docs are clear: If you owned a reference to buffer before passing it to this function, you must remove that reference yourself Feb 15 21:29:47 Motorola's corporate vice president of software and services product management, Christy Wyatt, said that while she would never say never, she doesn't envision Motorola using Microsoft's OS Feb 15 21:31:02 never say never to ms Feb 15 21:31:30 there's an interesting interview in engadget to Elop, he talks about MeeGo Feb 15 21:31:39 http://engt.co/hScnmF <--- there Feb 15 21:32:05 transcript? Feb 15 21:32:23 no, it's a video Feb 15 21:32:37 summarize it :p Feb 15 21:32:42 no transcript, but to summarise, he insists they are keeping meego in devel, and it may be part of the "next generation of disruption" Feb 15 21:32:51 hopefully it shows Elop as the good guy Feb 15 21:33:15 where by disruption he means "developers disruption by moving it to yet another toolkit" Feb 15 21:33:22 jump to about 8min into the video to see the meego part Feb 15 21:33:23 the good guy he isn't Feb 15 21:33:37 he ain't the devil Feb 15 21:34:04 he's the devil's spawn then :P Feb 15 21:34:14 i'd like to see figures on alcohol sales in finland for last weekend Feb 15 21:34:39 heh Feb 15 21:34:59 if nokia goes down, finland goes down too Feb 15 21:35:25 ieatlint: letushope he is sincere Feb 15 21:35:49 * RST38h is not against meego/maemo going back to diablo times, in principle Feb 15 21:36:02 Yes, it will be a niche device, but with a well defined loyal niche Feb 15 21:36:10 i doubt he is exactly Feb 15 21:36:59 i don't believe we'll ever see a nokia meego device Feb 15 21:37:17 he says MeeGo will be the "next major wave" or something like that Feb 15 21:37:28 talk, more talk Feb 15 21:37:28 see, he is good Feb 15 21:37:30 he's careful to say it may be Feb 15 21:37:35 what I understand is that they need to sell devices NOW and MeeGo is clearly not ready Feb 15 21:37:37 he wants the best for nokia and the Community Feb 15 21:37:45 yea right Feb 15 21:37:48 he can't speak definitively of nokia's plans that far off Feb 15 21:37:51 ok lemme rephrase Feb 15 21:37:56 He does not even know what the "community"is about Feb 15 21:37:59 what I want to understand in my ideal world is... (cut & paste the rest) Feb 15 21:38:06 Sc0rpius: correct, meego is not ready Feb 15 21:38:15 * GeneralAntilles just hopes for an OMAP4 MeeGo device with lots of support. Feb 15 21:38:19 * GeneralAntilles falls over dead. Feb 15 21:38:23 it is not ready and it won't be for at least one more year, being optimistic Feb 15 21:38:32 one year!? Feb 15 21:38:34 Sc0rpius: because Nokia is incompetent. Feb 15 21:38:37 WP7 is ready and they are desperate since Symbian^3 is not working in the smartphone section Feb 15 21:38:40 * RST38h smiles evilly and reminds that there is Maemo base OS Feb 15 21:38:49 Yes, it is Debian, but it works. Feb 15 21:38:50 wp7 isn't ready either :P Feb 15 21:38:56 WP7 is ready but full of bugs Feb 15 21:39:02 if the company is yours, what would you do? have a rough year, or sell some cells to stupid people and then enter 2012 with something very good? Feb 15 21:39:05 baby your n900 chaps, it is the last of its kind Feb 15 21:39:23 Sc0rpius: i'd go with a mobile platform that works Feb 15 21:39:28 which is not wp7 Feb 15 21:39:30 ok and which one it is? Feb 15 21:39:35 I'd kill you if you say Android Feb 15 21:39:37 maemo works, but is for nerds Feb 15 21:39:41 webos would be my first choice Feb 15 21:39:42 unfortunately Feb 15 21:39:52 s60v1>wp7 Feb 15 21:39:59 Maemo could have worked for everybody, that was the stupid mistake of Nokia Feb 15 21:40:06 Sc0rpius: problem goes a few years back. Feb 15 21:40:09 maemo isn't polished Feb 15 21:40:11 Sc0rpius: Obviously, you would further wreak your company by betting on somebody else's platform that has neither ecosystem nor generally required features Feb 15 21:40:28 GeneralAntilles: OMAP4? http://www.flickr.com/photos/10938917@N00/5448290799/ Feb 15 21:40:28 Sc0rpius: You would then get your bonus and leave Feb 15 21:40:29 maemo is fine for noobz Feb 15 21:40:37 omg, people need to stop saying "ecosystem" and "disruption" Feb 15 21:40:37 maemo was ready Feb 15 21:40:43 they could have improved the GUI of Maemo and make everybody happy, the nerds, the fashion girls (those that say if you don't have an iPhone you suck) Feb 15 21:40:44 agredd Feb 15 21:40:47 javispedro: I hate TI sometimes. Feb 15 21:40:59 ieatlint: Imma disrupt your ecosystem. Feb 15 21:41:05 javispedro: ommm? Feb 15 21:41:07 javispedro: omap5? Feb 15 21:41:09 yeah, the ti83 sucks balls Feb 15 21:41:13 LOL javispedro Feb 15 21:41:14 GeneralAntilles: that'll take a minimum of 3 beers Feb 15 21:41:16 and you have to buy Feb 15 21:41:24 actually I'd have not chosen Wp7 if the company was mine, come on, Microsoft has less then 4% of the market share Feb 15 21:41:32 that's like going with the losers Feb 15 21:41:40 Sc0rpius: well, i don't understand it Feb 15 21:41:42 jacekowski: seemingly :D Feb 15 21:41:52 Sc0rpius: fashion girls have problems if they have same dress Feb 15 21:41:54 fuck even my 10 year old hp49g calculator has more features the wp7 Feb 15 21:41:58 i've heard that there is currently no way to open network sockets for 3rd party devs on wp7 Feb 15 21:41:59 heh Feb 15 21:42:00 Sc0rpius: but if everybody has same phone that's cool Feb 15 21:42:04 yeah it's weird Feb 15 21:42:09 but that's the way it is Feb 15 21:42:09 which is just unacceptable Feb 15 21:42:43 I'd have gone with Maemo for this year, with nice and baeautiful GUI, multitouch, blah blah, and Meego for the next Feb 15 21:42:48 beautiful Feb 15 21:42:49 Ok, NOK went up little bit today, probably due to some people buying its shares cheap, waiting for them to rise Feb 15 21:42:58 Sc0rpius: harmattan was supposed to be the choice Feb 15 21:43:07 yeah and that would have been the smart choice Feb 15 21:43:08 javispedro: so how is it going to be with that dalvik Feb 15 21:43:10 which is maemo, kinda Feb 15 21:43:15 javispedro: because you said something about OEM only Feb 15 21:43:15 but it wasn't ready Feb 15 21:43:18 maybe they thought Maemo was a failure because of the N900 Feb 15 21:43:21 i wish i had some extra £££ i woulda gazumpted some NOK shares Feb 15 21:43:23 nokia employees said it wasn't ready Feb 15 21:43:27 jacekowski, I assure you, it's not related to the dress or the phones Feb 15 21:43:28 facebook and twitter applications weren't ready Feb 15 21:43:37 but it wasn't Maemo's fault, it was N900 fault. Powerful machine, but it was big and bulky with terrible battery life, fashion girls didn't want that Feb 15 21:43:39 lol facebook Feb 15 21:43:47 facebook is gay Feb 15 21:43:55 what about drunk fashion girls? Feb 15 21:44:16 jacekowski: that's what they said... Feb 15 21:44:19 vi_: i'm pretty sure facebook is equally open to men and women Feb 15 21:44:20 Sc0rpius: they don't want smartphones anyway... Feb 15 21:44:22 we'll call it bi Feb 15 21:44:29 yeah is gay but is what noobs like Feb 15 21:44:29 +0.23 (2.60%) Feb 15 21:44:29 lol Feb 15 21:44:31 they want featurephones in a pretty shell Feb 15 21:44:34 jacekowski: OEMs that want to differentiate Feb 15 21:44:36 that's nice to see Feb 15 21:44:42 themselves. Feb 15 21:44:46 anyway I can live forever with my N900, my last phone was a Centro, and before that a Treo 650... and those OSes were already sentenced to death when I bought them Feb 15 21:44:48 javispedro: so end users are screwed Feb 15 21:44:57 WTF is a smartphone anyway? Feb 15 21:44:58 what about drunk fashion girls? <-- we don't discuss the causes of pr0n :P Feb 15 21:45:09 vi_: it's a phone that's smarter than you Feb 15 21:45:20 maybe it's me, when I buy a phone, the next week the OS is dead Feb 15 21:45:21 vi_: that's why none of my phones were a smartphones Feb 15 21:45:25 I should buy an iPhone then. Feb 15 21:45:31 >) Feb 15 21:45:33 MohammadAG: no, see, it's important to increase nokia's appeal to such groups, because frankly the camera phones on other manufacturers leave much to be desired Feb 15 21:45:34 a phone smarter than the average user Feb 15 21:45:37 Sc0rpius: buy loads of them Feb 15 21:45:40 hehe Feb 15 21:45:50 -_- stfu you unemployed self appointed retard Feb 15 21:45:57 and then buy android Feb 15 21:46:00 vi_: rotfl Feb 15 21:46:07 vi_: dumbphone: calls, sms, probably alarms. smartphone: general computing platform with downloadable applications and such Feb 15 21:46:08 Android is pretty, very pretty, but bad Feb 15 21:46:10 Has anybody considered that the "MeeGo device" might be a Booklet 3G Mk II? Feb 15 21:46:19 I have some friends with Motorola Droids, their battery roughly last for 10 horus Feb 15 21:46:21 hours Feb 15 21:46:24 featurephone somewhere in between Feb 15 21:46:25 General:Yes Feb 15 21:46:25 vi_: i'm full time employed and i don't insult people as a revenge Feb 15 21:46:26 damn lag Feb 15 21:46:34 vi_: i just insult them because i like to Feb 15 21:46:34 I thought it will be an olpc Feb 15 21:46:35 * javispedro 's brain dies after reading GeneralAntilles thought Feb 15 21:46:35 General: But it will be a Harmattan device. Feb 15 21:46:48 Mk II isn't that a Metal Gear unit? Feb 15 21:46:52 RST38h: Harmattan Moblin? =) Feb 15 21:46:57 sorta a phone that does email and probably lets you install Java games or something Feb 15 21:47:11 yeah, your also a dumbass who doesnt believe in batterys Feb 15 21:47:12 javispedro: harmattan-freakin-maemo, labelled Meego. Feb 15 21:47:26 ignored Feb 15 21:47:26 vi_: woot? Feb 15 21:47:35 on a Booklet though, I'd expect they'd ship NetbookUX aka Mobling and call it a day. Feb 15 21:47:42 *Moblin, dammit. Feb 15 21:48:07 Maeblin Feb 15 21:48:36 (reads as Ma-yo-bleen) Feb 15 21:48:43 moblin, meego... someone tell intel to stop naming things Feb 15 21:48:55 hehe Feb 15 21:48:58 ieatlint: core Feb 15 21:49:03 ieatlint: that name was nasty Feb 15 21:49:10 i have 2 core core 2 Feb 15 21:49:15 worse than wp7? Feb 15 21:49:25 or i have core 2 Feb 15 21:49:28 every time i say "a windows phone 7 phone" i shudder Feb 15 21:49:28 or i have 2 cores Feb 15 21:49:47 or i have 2 core core 1 Feb 15 21:50:05 with HT Feb 15 21:50:24 ieatlint: microsoft names stuff purely to make you feel like that Feb 15 21:50:33 ieatlint: "So click on My Computer" Feb 15 21:50:50 heh, yeah Feb 15 21:50:58 RST38h, maybe it's maybelene (or however that crap's spelled) Feb 15 21:51:08 and "windows" itself is pretty confusing, imho Feb 15 21:51:18 and i've referred to symbian 3 as the windows me of mobiles Feb 15 21:51:35 "just take a platform that's 10 years old and keep hacking on features" Feb 15 21:51:46 i mean, "close all open windows" Feb 15 21:52:10 9x was younger than that Feb 15 21:52:18 Mohammmad: No,no,I absolutely insist on Maeblin. Feb 15 21:52:25 i mean, when the abandoned it Feb 15 21:52:27 it was a mess from the start Feb 15 21:52:35 Mohammad: Ask ZogG why, when you have a chnce :) Feb 15 22:02:44 GeneralAntilles: nope, not according to what I was able to pull outa timeless' nose Feb 15 22:05:31 GeneralAntilles: he clearly said that it's meego subdivision that is building this meego device, and their focus (read product specs) haven't changed recently for that device. So if it's not been Nokia's plan since long ago to ship something completely different than a phone for first meego device, I'd guess chances it is now are marginal Feb 15 22:06:41 Nokia and plan on the same sentence should trigger a SIGALRM Feb 15 22:07:03 actually it triggered a SIGSEGV Feb 15 22:09:27 and yes, I know this from my own time at some other hw manufacturer, there's no use in putting any statements, as you never know what ideas mgmt got tomorrow Feb 15 22:10:23 nevertheless all this doesn't invalidate my rationale above, I think Feb 15 22:11:10 Also - there was the above-mentioned quote in the statement saying that it was a phone, in passing. Feb 15 22:13:26 * javispedro 's Phone 7 SDK download is at 95%... it's about that time everything dies abruptly so that I have to redownload Feb 15 22:13:58 LOL Feb 15 22:14:13 javispedro: It doesn't want you to download it! Try the meego SDK, that one will finish 100% Feb 15 22:15:15 javispedro: don't you think that's all part of the masterplan? Tomorrow M$ comes up with "3 mio downloads of WP7 SDK in only 4 days. Microkia great success at developers'" Feb 15 22:15:49 3 million downloads from 2 different IPs only! Feb 15 22:15:54 127.0.0.1 and mine! Feb 15 22:16:02 hahahahahaha Feb 15 22:16:12 lol Feb 15 22:17:10 it's YOU who builds their success :-P Feb 15 22:17:27 * trumee likes the Tesco app in android market. Much easier to use then let javascript kill MicroB Feb 15 22:17:38 No, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Feb 15 22:18:01 http://edition.cnn.com/2011/TECH/mobile/02/15/lg.optimus.3d/ Feb 15 22:18:09 "Error code 00500. A unknown error happened with" (yes, dialog box ends there) Feb 15 22:18:26 A unknown? Feb 15 22:18:28 epic spelling Feb 15 22:18:29 ROTFL, M$ at its finest Feb 15 22:18:52 javispedro, wget -c? Feb 15 22:19:04 actually it feels like it's ever been like this Feb 15 22:19:04 I am using their crappy downloader Feb 15 22:19:16 what DocScrutinizer said Feb 15 22:19:29 and the file is gone Feb 15 22:19:32 lol Feb 15 22:19:33 ok, fsck this. Feb 15 22:19:33 anyone know if the N900 has a wpa_supplicant.conf file anywhere? Feb 15 22:19:39 why not sniff it Feb 15 22:19:41 and use wget Feb 15 22:19:49 it doesn't use WS lardman Feb 15 22:20:00 drat Feb 15 22:20:06 thanks MohammadAG Feb 15 22:21:02 iirc javispedro is using wpa_supp Feb 15 22:21:08 ;-) Feb 15 22:21:29 * MohammadAG rms javispedro's wpa_supplicant Feb 15 22:21:31 not anymore Feb 15 22:21:32 I'm no longer using it since I don't have the need any more, but it's still around Feb 15 22:21:42 yeah, but he's not using my AP afaik! ;) Feb 15 22:22:06 lardman: you might be wrong though :-P Feb 15 22:22:41 lardman: have you checked recently? Feb 15 22:24:04 true :D Feb 15 22:25:16 ok, I've another good question for you knowledgeable chaps Feb 15 22:25:22 ;) Feb 15 22:25:27 shoot Feb 15 22:25:37 * DocScrutinizer is bored Feb 15 22:25:39 how do I get a cursor to appear in vi? Or indeed on my terminal at all Feb 15 22:26:23 umm, cursor like in xterm? Feb 15 22:26:31 yep Feb 15 22:27:33 http://inz.fi/blog/category/geeky/maemo/maemo-hackers/osso-xterm/ is all I can share Feb 15 22:28:48 ah, I don't want a binary, I just would like to see the cursor in vi when I log into my Tab running Meego Feb 15 22:28:49 lardman, maybe the xterm needs a `reset' Feb 15 22:28:53 would make it easier to edit files Feb 15 22:28:55 What ever happened to inz Feb 15 22:28:58 nox-: nah done that Feb 15 22:29:08 oh Feb 15 22:29:16 ok i know nothing about meego's xterm... Feb 15 22:29:31 not xterm Feb 15 22:29:31 maybe its b0rked somehow? Feb 15 22:29:36 command line login Feb 15 22:29:46 well, terminal emulator Feb 15 22:30:15 np Feb 15 22:30:24 umm Feb 15 22:30:39 what awk/sed magic do i do on ii mp-fremantle-community-pr 20.2010.36-2maemo11 Community SSU package, includes latest fixes from Gitorious and the community to get the version? Feb 15 22:31:35 awk '{print $3}' Feb 15 22:31:38 cut Feb 15 22:31:41 Nokia-N900:/usr/lib/hildon-control-panel# dpkg -l mp-fremantle-community-pr | tail -1 | sed 's/ /\n/g' | grep maemo Feb 15 22:31:43 20.2010.36-2maemo11 Feb 15 22:31:47 looks nasty :p Feb 15 22:31:51 or what alterego said Feb 15 22:32:23 actually Nokia-N900:/usr/lib/hildon-control-panel# dpkg -l mp-fremantle-community-pr | sed 's/ /\n/g' | grep maemo Feb 15 22:32:24 20.2010.36-2maemo11 Feb 15 22:32:27 any hint how i might feed information into the gpsd? i basically want to make the system believe i'm in a certain location, even if there's no actual GPS fix (on the N810) Feb 15 22:34:01 * javispedro tries to as MohammadAG to find what the download server is, points wget to it and finds 3KiB/sec speeds Feb 15 22:34:21 javispedro, should be done by next MWC! Feb 15 22:34:38 alterego, ty Feb 15 22:34:52 LjL: there's no gpsd Feb 15 22:35:11 no gpsd? wow, i must have gotten it all real wrong :D Feb 15 22:35:17 you could write a liblocation substitute and LDPRELOAD it Feb 15 22:35:23 DocScrutinizer: N810 Feb 15 22:35:27 ooh Feb 15 22:35:30 MEH Feb 15 22:35:32 MohammadAG: dpkg -l $target | grep '^ii' | awk '{print $3}' Feb 15 22:35:35 hi there Feb 15 22:35:44 ah, i really did believe there was a gpsd :P Feb 15 22:35:50 why's it been removed in N900? that seems silly to me Feb 15 22:36:00 MohammadAG: will return 0 string if the package is not installed. Feb 15 22:36:04 although N900 does have GeoClue, doesn't it? Feb 15 22:36:09 0 length sng that is Feb 15 22:36:26 LjL: http://gypsy.freedesktop.org/why-not-gpsd.html Feb 15 22:36:27 LjL: does on MeeGo Feb 15 22:37:12 alterego, I already check if it's installed :) Feb 15 22:38:58 javispedro: hmm i see. i don't entirely buy it, in the sense that ditching gpsd is bound to cause fragmentation and go back to a state where you can't access your device using multiple programs, but i guess there is a point. Feb 15 22:39:30 i wish there was at least geoclue for OS2008 anyway. it seems to be there for OS2007... and i'd really like to have wifi-based location Feb 15 22:39:45 alterego: ah i had gotten the impression it did on Maemo too Feb 15 22:41:19 seriously, seriously, does Nokia expect people to download the wp7 tools? Feb 15 22:42:09 seriously, seriously, does Nokia expect people to buy wp7 phones? Feb 15 22:42:43 how do I add text to chars? Feb 15 22:42:47 usually in Qt, I use + Feb 15 22:42:50 this completely and utterly sucks. I hope they have pendrives or something. Feb 15 22:43:15 hi guys Feb 15 22:43:24 MohammadAG: depends Feb 15 22:43:26 can you tell me what do you use to create patches for the kernel? Feb 15 22:43:32 aveny: diff Feb 15 22:44:12 MohammadAG: g_strconcat? Feb 15 22:44:21 MohammadAG: sprintf() Feb 15 22:44:22 javispedro, english? :P Feb 15 22:44:32 g_strconcat is a good solution I use that sometimes Feb 15 22:44:37 or g_strdup_printf Feb 15 22:44:44 version = "Version: 20.2010.36-2" + output + "\n"; Feb 15 22:44:44 MohammadAG: strncat, asprintf Feb 15 22:44:53 I was thinking that'd work, as with QString Feb 15 22:44:57 jacekowski, just diff?? Feb 15 22:44:58 MohammadAG: asprintf Feb 15 22:45:01 aveny: yes Feb 15 22:45:13 glib prefers g_strdup_printf over asprintf Feb 15 22:45:21 MohammadAG: asprintf will be easiest for you because it will handle allocation of memory for you Feb 15 22:45:30 MohammadAG: you just have to remember to free everything Feb 15 22:45:37 jacekowski, what if you want to see the final patched code? always diff? Feb 15 22:45:48 remind me to never touch gtk Feb 15 22:45:52 (for the single reason g_strdup_printf comes with glib, which comes with gtk+, while asprintf is nonstandard addition to libc) Feb 15 22:45:58 aveny: i'm not sure what are you talking about Feb 15 22:46:14 aveny: there is a lot ways of doing it Feb 15 22:46:23 MohammadAG: http://library.gnome.org/devel/glib/unstable/glib-String-Utility-Functions.html Feb 15 22:46:27 aveny: i think what you will have to do is checkout it from git and then work on it Feb 15 22:46:35 aveny: and then do for example git diff Feb 15 22:47:00 aveny: and that will give you difference between your working copy and specific revision Feb 15 22:47:15 aveny: but it's quite wide topic Feb 15 22:47:15 jacekowski, uhm ok Feb 15 22:47:31 jacekowski, is there any useful guide? it's not so clear :) Feb 15 22:47:33 MohammadAG: nah, it's overloading that made everything easy for you Feb 15 22:47:39 aveny: not really Feb 15 22:47:43 aveny: there is git guide Feb 15 22:47:52 aveny: but you first have to know what you want Feb 15 22:48:01 aveny: do you want to write code yourself Feb 15 22:48:04 aveny: or what Feb 15 22:48:21 jacekowski, ok.. and.. if I want to modify one nokia patch, should I write another patch or can I just modify that patch? Feb 15 22:48:35 that sort of thing Feb 15 22:48:43 you ussualy apply all patches Feb 15 22:48:45 jacekowski, I want modify one file of the kernel Feb 15 22:49:00 modify that file you want Feb 15 22:49:09 jacekowski, heh Feb 15 22:49:33 and diff it with file before your modification and after Feb 15 22:49:38 uhm and in order to apply all the patches should I checkout that? Feb 15 22:49:48 complicated Feb 15 22:50:09 and i'm not sure where is that patch Feb 15 22:50:13 you may have to branch it Feb 15 22:50:28 the patch is this: nokia-20094803.3+0m5.diff Feb 15 22:50:38 I just want to modify some lines Feb 15 22:50:50 what for? Feb 15 22:50:54 so I was thinking to modify just that patch instead of modify all Feb 15 22:50:55 just for yourself? Feb 15 22:50:58 yes Feb 15 22:51:00 just for me Feb 15 22:51:03 then don't bother Feb 15 22:51:06 just apply all patches Feb 15 22:51:10 modify source Feb 15 22:51:12 and compile it Feb 15 22:51:18 uhm Feb 15 22:51:27 the fact is that I can compile only Feb 15 22:51:55 using dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -sa Feb 15 22:52:07 same shit Feb 15 22:52:13 just make it whatever way it will work Feb 15 22:52:17 if I try to do it with make I get errors Feb 15 22:52:19 as long as nobody else sees it it's ok Feb 15 22:52:23 uhm Feb 15 22:52:25 then you're doing it wrong Feb 15 22:52:31 read rules file Feb 15 22:52:37 there are some special options for make Feb 15 22:52:56 I get strange compilation errors Feb 15 22:53:13 instead using that command I don't so Feb 15 22:53:18 MohammadAG: why are you trying to join that string before Feb 15 22:53:40 it's a mess :/ Feb 15 22:54:04 wait wait wait Feb 15 22:54:21 aveny: there is wiki entry about compiling your own kernel Feb 15 22:54:23 if I want to compile with make, should I apply all the patches before typing make? Feb 15 22:54:27 aveny: no Feb 15 22:54:32 aveny: that command doesn't build Feb 15 22:54:32 jacekowski, I read it Feb 15 22:54:34 you don't compile with make Feb 15 22:54:49 make EXTRAVERSION=-omap1 bzImage Feb 15 22:54:52 make bzImage Feb 15 22:54:53 this should compile Feb 15 22:55:10 yes that Feb 15 22:55:17 Have you configured it? Feb 15 22:55:20 nope Feb 15 22:55:21 yes Feb 15 22:55:27 make EXTRAVERSION=-omap1 rx51_defconfig Feb 15 22:55:29 make EXTRAVERSION=-omap1 rx51_defconfig Feb 15 22:55:30 that's first Feb 15 22:55:38 make EXTRAVERSION=-omap1 bzImage Feb 15 22:55:38 I get errors Feb 15 22:55:40 that's second Feb 15 22:55:40 Ah yes. Feb 15 22:55:44 what sort of errors Feb 15 22:55:56 arch/arm/plat-omap/include/mach/pm.h:111:2: error: #error "Power management for this processor not implemented yet" Feb 15 22:56:25 hmm Feb 15 22:56:25 I modified the pm.h in order to avoid that error but after there was another linking error Feb 15 22:56:36 at the end Feb 15 22:56:45 and how you unpacked sources Feb 15 22:56:49 and where you've got them from Feb 15 22:57:10 apt-get source kernel-power Feb 15 22:57:17 cd kernel-power-2.6.28/ Feb 15 22:57:24 that should work Feb 15 22:57:24 fakeroot apt-get build-dep kernel-power Feb 15 22:57:32 dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -sa Feb 15 22:57:35 yep I know.. Feb 15 22:58:06 let me just check Feb 15 22:58:13 k thanks :) Feb 15 22:59:22 jacekowski, sorry Feb 15 22:59:29 that command worked sorry Feb 15 22:59:30 yeah Feb 15 22:59:42 the command that gave me the errors was: Feb 15 22:59:46 what? Feb 15 22:59:58 cp debian/rx51power_defconfig arch/arm/configs/ Feb 15 23:00:04 make EXTRAVERSION=power46 rx51power_defconfig Feb 15 23:00:10 make EXTRAVERSION=power46 bzImage Feb 15 23:00:24 the arch/arm/plat-omap/include/mach/pm.h:111:2: error: #error "Power management for this processor not implemented yet" Feb 15 23:00:57 the "normal" kernel is ok but compiling the power kernel gives me that error Feb 15 23:02:59 ahm Feb 15 23:03:00 Tomorrow I get back into Columbus :) Feb 15 23:03:06 yeah i see the problem Feb 15 23:03:17 k Feb 15 23:03:23 complicated to fix Feb 15 23:03:26 damn it Feb 15 23:03:32 so is not just me ok Feb 15 23:03:33 just edit that patch Feb 15 23:03:37 ok Feb 15 23:03:49 hmm, does wpa_supplicant log to somewhere? Feb 15 23:03:52 and don't tell anyone Feb 15 23:03:56 :D Feb 15 23:04:13 is it really so complicated to fix the error? Feb 15 23:04:21 no Feb 15 23:04:26 you would have to edit package Feb 15 23:04:26 k Feb 15 23:04:29 quite simple Feb 15 23:04:51 but i's too complicated for me to explain it at 23:00 Feb 15 23:04:55 ah ok Feb 15 23:04:57 23:04 Feb 15 23:05:16 because i'm looking at screen with one eye Feb 15 23:05:20 but why has been updated a kernel that has compiling problems? Feb 15 23:05:23 because other one is sleeping already Feb 15 23:05:24 lol why? Feb 15 23:05:27 ah k Feb 15 23:05:28 :D Feb 15 23:05:32 is not so late :P Feb 15 23:05:47 it is if you consider that i woke up at 04:00 today Feb 15 23:06:00 jacekowski, ok this makes sense.. Feb 15 23:06:17 thanks for the explanations Feb 15 23:06:40 i should be asleep too Feb 15 23:06:52 another :D Feb 15 23:06:53 * javispedro would be.. Feb 15 23:06:54 aveny: but you can read debian/rules Feb 15 23:06:54 school, need to wake up at 6 and it's 1 Feb 15 23:07:04 MohammadAG: 6? Feb 15 23:07:05 if it not WERE BECAUSE OF FSCKING MS DOWNLOAD SERVER Feb 15 23:07:06 jacekowski, to do what? Feb 15 23:07:08 cba to sleep though Feb 15 23:07:24 aveny: to understand how that package is built Feb 15 23:07:25 jacekowski, yeah Feb 15 23:07:41 that's bit early to go to school Feb 15 23:07:54 in my school days i never woke up before 9:00 Feb 15 23:07:56 jacekowski, what package? stupid question I know Feb 15 23:08:02 yep it's very early 6.00 Feb 15 23:08:05 but that may be a reason why i barely passed Feb 15 23:08:09 :D Feb 15 23:08:12 jacekowski, :D Feb 15 23:08:49 lol jacekowski Feb 15 23:09:03 well, morning routine Feb 15 23:09:14 syncing with gitorious /me stares at merlin1991 Feb 15 23:09:36 and it wasn't the thing that i didn't like to go to school Feb 15 23:09:42 i hated doing homework Feb 15 23:09:42 *thumbs up* MohammadAG Feb 15 23:09:59 and going to school without homework always meant bad things Feb 15 23:10:10 so i just decided to not go Feb 15 23:10:11 i have two tests tomorrow Feb 15 23:10:15 didn't study neither Feb 15 23:10:29 i don't have problems with tests Feb 15 23:10:36 why? cause they're religion and arabic, two subjects I don't give a crap about Feb 15 23:10:42 it's just spending time at home doing school stuff Feb 15 23:10:54 when i could be doing fuck all Feb 15 23:11:03 esspecialy that i knew this stuff already Feb 15 23:11:27 I just find Qt a bit more interesting Feb 15 23:11:41 and writing down 20th page of integrals was boring Feb 15 23:12:27 but at the point where i can tell result of an integral by just looking at it it's pointless for me to do any more of them Feb 15 23:12:43 if you have to write it all down propely how you got to the result Feb 15 23:13:44 and highest grades on test wouldn't compensate for lowest grades on anything else Feb 15 23:13:49 everything else* Feb 15 23:13:57 so i was just barely passing Feb 15 23:14:07 my low attendance wasn't helping a lot as well Feb 15 23:14:12 sometimes when I'm bored with integrals I wrote the answer and worked from bottom to top Feb 15 23:14:29 s/'m/was Feb 15 23:16:02 MohammadAG: i thought you did teh Noor package? Feb 15 23:16:14 (that's arabic, religion, and not Qt) Feb 15 23:16:16 I did Feb 15 23:16:43 noor? Feb 15 23:17:23 Quran app, needed it for a religion test :P Feb 15 23:17:26 hmmm Feb 15 23:17:27 Noor (play), the play by Akbar Ahmed Feb 15 23:17:47 Queen Noor of Jordan Feb 15 23:17:52 or city in iran Feb 15 23:18:00 lol Feb 15 23:18:46 if he was in iran he prob wouldnt be here Feb 15 23:19:45 Where is MohammadAG from? Israel? Feb 15 23:20:04 "We’ve also long been impressed with the creativity, passion and size of the Nokia developer community, and we will do all we can to bring that energy to Windows Phone" Feb 15 23:20:17 yea Feb 15 23:20:32 javispedro: insult to injury and all that... Feb 15 23:20:32 javispedro, $100kk won't get me on WP7 Feb 15 23:20:40 double ks was not a mistake Feb 15 23:20:57 that was basically the welcome message =) Feb 15 23:20:57 that's an amazingly stupid thing to say... Feb 15 23:21:03 MohammadAG: well for $101kk I'd probably consider it Feb 15 23:21:14 <_trine> MohammadAG, are you retiring at an early age then Feb 15 23:21:29 lardman, nah Feb 15 23:21:39 MohammadAG: correct would be to use M Feb 15 23:21:40 won't get out of bed for.... Feb 15 23:21:49 les than $102kk Feb 15 23:21:55 +s Feb 15 23:21:57 use correct suffixes Feb 15 23:22:01 M Feb 15 23:22:02 100kkk, maybe Feb 15 23:22:03 not double k Feb 15 23:22:09 G not tripple k Feb 15 23:22:21 ooh, windows phone emlator, let's try this thing Feb 15 23:22:22 k^2 ? Feb 15 23:22:24 kkk sounds cooler Feb 15 23:22:40 have you heard about klu klux klan Feb 15 23:22:45 *Crash* Feb 15 23:22:51 ku kux klan* Feb 15 23:22:57 klux* Feb 15 23:22:58 <_trine> obviously not :) Feb 15 23:23:17 <_trine> MohammadAG, they would burn you on the cross Feb 15 23:23:19 I thought it was Klu? Feb 15 23:23:21 well wp7 looks like a black and white iphone. Feb 15 23:23:38 javispedro, it even emulates BSODs! Feb 15 23:23:59 MohammadAG: hold on, why do you study religion? Feb 15 23:24:09 kerio, ask my school Feb 15 23:24:26 why do you go to a school where you study religion? Feb 15 23:24:48 <_trine> indoctrination Feb 15 23:25:01 kerio, ask my government Feb 15 23:25:06 <_trine> is the simple answer Feb 15 23:25:15 nah, all school do it Feb 15 23:25:24 This school is run by christians too Feb 15 23:25:32 and I take islamic religion Feb 15 23:25:35 MohammadAG: aren't you in nyc? Feb 15 23:25:51 LOL Feb 15 23:25:54 I wish Feb 15 23:26:06 then your hostname is lying Feb 15 23:26:18 or you're using a bouncer Feb 15 23:26:20 Religion is a significant factor in human relations and has been for centuries. Why _wouldn't_ you study it? Feb 15 23:26:38 a bouncer on verizon fios :Q___ Feb 15 23:26:44 Studying religion is actually pretty good, it enables one to understand where things went horribly wrong in the world. Feb 15 23:26:50 <_trine> because its become politicised Feb 15 23:27:05 studying *religions* would be Feb 15 23:27:25 single religion by a priest or whatever is pointless Feb 15 23:27:29 because it's biased Feb 15 23:27:30 kerio, what hostmask :P Feb 15 23:27:33 studying a single religion is stupid Feb 15 23:27:41 that there is only one true god and there is a salvation Feb 15 23:27:58 MohammadAG: oh, it looked like pool-108-14-87-241.nycmny.fios.verizon.net before Feb 15 23:28:04 maybe i'm wrong Feb 15 23:28:08 <_trine> actually we are all a hologram :) Feb 15 23:28:18 kerio, I wasn't id'd, thanks for pasting the IP lol Feb 15 23:28:24 yw Feb 15 23:28:27 00:26 -!- MohammadAG [~MohammadA@pool-108-14-87-241.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] Feb 15 23:28:37 Religion as a phenomenon is what I meant. Feb 15 23:29:00 * javispedro kinda likes the wp7 browser Feb 15 23:29:02 Per_n900: isn't mass hysteria best studied in med school? Feb 15 23:29:17 * MohammadAG performs an exorcism on javispedro Feb 15 23:29:33 that's a good question Feb 15 23:29:38 javispedro, what do you like again? Feb 15 23:29:45 <_trine> maybe we could convert this channel now its obsolete to religious chat #maegod Feb 15 23:29:46 MohammadAG: is there a thing like a devil or something in islam? Feb 15 23:29:58 it seems to be doing some kind of font resizing Feb 15 23:29:59 yeah Feb 15 23:30:04 kerio, maybe. Feb 15 23:30:06 * SpeedEvil learned the answer to that on Radio 4. Feb 15 23:30:14 * MohammadAG murders javispedro - we lost this one :( Feb 15 23:30:17 It's George Bush. Feb 15 23:30:29 MohammadAG: hey font resizing is cool Feb 15 23:30:35 it's what my ipod touch does Feb 15 23:30:45 screwing up with the layout of most websites Feb 15 23:30:50 anyways Feb 15 23:30:52 good night Feb 15 23:30:56 Night! Feb 15 23:31:29 unfortunately, you cannot disable this font resizing at all. Feb 15 23:31:39 <_trine> this channel requires a good strong dose of prozac after the bad news Feb 15 23:31:41 even though it has a quite large options page including user agent Feb 15 23:31:46 MohammadAG: On the subject of Nokia's betrayal, we are grateful to people like you for the community updates to Maemo. Thx. Feb 15 23:31:49 i <3 microB ^_^ Feb 15 23:32:01 bad news link? Feb 15 23:32:06 what kwtm said! Feb 15 23:32:22 cheap n900 : http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B002ZB8L4O/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d2_i2?pf_rd_m=A1X6FK5RDHNB96&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1BNDQG5TCVRFBSAD6XJ6&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463375513&pf_rd_i=405320 Feb 15 23:32:24 tbh I miss a "distort layout resize fonts" tool on MicroB (and yes I know about Ctrl+Shift+I) Feb 15 23:32:45 isn't maemo just really freakin good already? Feb 15 23:32:49 MohammadAG: so are you an atheist or you just don't care about the one true deity that created this universe just for you? Feb 15 23:33:26 * javispedro types slashdot.org and wp7 suggests slashdot.org.org . I wonder if its some kind of inside joke. Feb 15 23:33:26 would that not be agnostic? Feb 15 23:33:30 the interesting question is "why did android become popular and not maemo" Feb 15 23:33:48 i'd like to see someone explain the factors that led to this Feb 15 23:33:50 pupnik: because the email client worked? Feb 15 23:33:50 lardman: gnosticism != theism Feb 15 23:33:53 lardman: an agnostic doesn't know if there is a god or not - thinking there is one but not caring is different Feb 15 23:34:00 Android had a large number of devices by the time that maemo 5 hit Feb 15 23:34:01 <_trine> is android more open source Feb 15 23:34:07 ok, slashdot is completely unreadable on this thing. microb wins. Feb 15 23:34:09 _trine: a lot less Feb 15 23:34:12 SpeedEvil: i think that's a big part of it Feb 15 23:34:14 javispedro: yay Feb 15 23:34:27 but how did android get so much mindshare? Feb 15 23:34:27 kwtm, yw :) Feb 15 23:34:39 pupnik_: Google. Feb 15 23:34:43 analysis of chaotic / feedback cycles isn't easy Feb 15 23:34:51 <_trine> I bought 2 N900's and now I am really disappointed Feb 15 23:34:51 pupnik_: Google has money, and people like them Feb 15 23:34:53 pupnik_: google pays manufacturers to use it, or so I have heard atleast. That could be one reason. Feb 15 23:34:56 kerio, no, I just got bored of the subject at school Feb 15 23:34:57 kerio, same freaking stuff, for 12 years Feb 15 23:34:57 lardman: gnosticism = knowing about the existance or non-existance of a deity Feb 15 23:35:00 BCMM: but atheism is believing there is no God I thought Feb 15 23:35:07 lardman: yes. Feb 15 23:35:23 MohammadAG: i gave you a question with two choices and you answered "no" Feb 15 23:35:26 so the question above can't really use or as a conjunction Feb 15 23:35:26 :| Feb 15 23:35:36 BCMM_: nokia has / had a lot of money too Feb 15 23:35:40 "Microsoft Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone For Evaluation Purposes Only" -- on the title bar. Feb 15 23:35:50 "there, free development tools!". Feb 15 23:35:54 thank you Nokia! Feb 15 23:35:55 BCMM_: part of the problem is the world's focus on the USA.. Feb 15 23:36:05 <_trine> you dont have to worry about religion theres an APP now to receive forgiveness for your sins Feb 15 23:36:08 lardman: theism: believing in a god. atheism: not believing in a god. agnosticism: undecided between the other two :) Feb 15 23:36:10 javispedro: run it through wine and tell us Feb 15 23:36:10 <_trine> :))) Feb 15 23:36:13 anyway, brain is frazzled after staring at Tab screen for too long Feb 15 23:36:22 BCMM_: nope Feb 15 23:36:35 gnosticism != theism Feb 15 23:36:40 kerio: the :) was supposed to indicate knowing i'm wrong Feb 15 23:36:47 pupnik_: Why did android become popular? Marketing machine that is Google! Feb 15 23:36:50 one is about knowledge and the other is about belief Feb 15 23:36:58 BCMM_: you needed more )s Feb 15 23:37:03 kerio, I'm hardcore Feb 15 23:37:07 pupnik_, advertising Feb 15 23:37:08 BCMM: what is the term for those who dont give a f about it Feb 15 23:37:08 pupnik_: Do you see Nokia pimping Maemo anywhere? Except maybe two Youtube videos... Feb 15 23:37:16 night all Feb 15 23:37:35 kwtm: i agree there was a colossal marketing failure and lack of belief in linux Feb 15 23:37:40 yeah, maemo made very little noise, even without open-source focused media Feb 15 23:37:40 lardman: i meant "are you disinterested in the study of religion because you don't believe in it or just out of boredom for the subject?" Feb 15 23:37:45 <_trine> I am changing what I am interested in,, now I am looking into number crunching with a video card and pyrit Feb 15 23:37:48 _trine: the N900's are still valuable, partly because they can withstand obsolescence ... It will still be running Linux, python/bash scripts, etc. Feb 15 23:37:48 ^within, rather Feb 15 23:38:08 kwtm: if you install bash :| Feb 15 23:38:25 kerio: well, now's the time to install everything before those Maemo repositories disappear! Feb 15 23:38:32 <_trine> kwtm, yeah it might make a good central heating controller Feb 15 23:38:40 kwtm: nah, MohammadAG's got our back apparently Feb 15 23:38:50 kwtm: as long as u have spare batteries too Feb 15 23:39:01 _trine: nah, that'll be a sheevaplug Feb 15 23:39:07 kerio, technically, my repo lives on maemo.org Feb 15 23:39:19 kerio: You never know. No disrespect for MohammedAG, of course, but sometimes higher-ups make decisions suddenly and unexpectedly. Feb 15 23:39:21 jacekowski has a mirror though Feb 15 23:39:27 they killing it? Feb 15 23:39:31 MohammadAG: YOU GOT OUR BACK LALALALALA Feb 15 23:39:36 they won't kill it Feb 15 23:39:45 rzr: True; now might be the time to eBay a spare or two. I did get a Universal Battery Charger just because I'm so paranoid. Feb 15 23:39:57 just wont dev it anymoore? Feb 15 23:39:59 if they kill it, they'll lose Elop Feb 15 23:40:02 if they kill the repo, I'll finally have a use for my debian server :D Feb 15 23:40:07 * MohammadAG laughs diabolically Feb 15 23:40:10 kwtm: do u still think that n900 will remain the only device for uning gnu tools , ssh etc for upcoming years ? Feb 15 23:40:27 i never uned ssh Feb 15 23:40:36 pupnik_: Not sure if world focus on USA is the problem. I take it you're referring to how, in the USA, Android and iPhones are big and Nokia is tiny. THere was an article on that ... mentioned on slashdot. Searching now. Feb 15 23:41:23 anwyay, think I have to sleep now Feb 15 23:41:24 night Feb 15 23:41:31 <_trine> gnight Feb 15 23:41:33 will be back in 4 hours :/ Feb 15 23:41:41 rzr: I fear that there will be that strong possibility. Samsung is rumoured to bring out a Linux phone, but then Nokia was also rumoured to bring out this powerful N9 successor to the N900, and look what happened. Feb 15 23:41:44 kwtm: i am wondering how much does n900 should worth now and if it a good invesment for GNU/linux geeks Feb 15 23:41:46 I une ssh all the time. You're missing out. Feb 15 23:41:56 ssh is like magic Feb 15 23:42:13 kwtm: yes SLP i know ,but it lacks an open community Feb 15 23:42:16 derf: Don't we all use ssh? Who doesn't here? Who are you talking to Feb 15 23:42:29 kerio. Feb 15 23:42:33 kwtm: so i fear limo is not hackers users Feb 15 23:42:45 rzr: Yeah, but then Meego-on-N900 also lacks a big community, which is why I'm glad Maemo's around (and has the N770/N800 community to draw on) Feb 15 23:43:07 i'm not leaving for some time Feb 15 23:43:09 <_trine> anyway I've gone back to my trustly 6310i Feb 15 23:43:13 i can't remember the last time i used mass-storage mode, because sftp://user@n900/ is just so easy Feb 15 23:43:23 i am happy that maemo wasnt closed when meego was announced Feb 15 23:43:38 (the n900 has a static wlan IP and an entry in /etc/hosts) Feb 15 23:43:39 kerio: Seriously? No ssh? You gotta try it sometime! Tunnel X over ssh ... Feb 15 23:43:46 kwtm: about about getting n900 today is it a mistake ? Feb 15 23:43:57 kwtm: they're buying ipads with chinese money Feb 15 23:44:04 rzr: I would get it at a discount. I myself find it useful for this purpose: Feb 15 23:44:10 <_trine> it certainly would be a big mistake Feb 15 23:44:25 _trine: point out the alternatives ? Feb 15 23:44:32 MohammadAG: jebba had a mirror :-P Feb 15 23:44:37 _trine: i have a freerunner already Feb 15 23:44:39 kwtm: 'twas a joke based on your misspelling Feb 15 23:44:48 DocScrutinizer, freeee.org, but it's dead :( Feb 15 23:44:53 americants are buying nokia stock with fake money Feb 15 23:44:54 rzr: Mainly for editing files: vim; also viewing PDF's. I guess most people use the web, too, although I don't that much. So these are the main reason, "raisons d'etre". And then there Feb 15 23:44:54 or was it freeeee? Feb 15 23:44:57 and destroying the company Feb 15 23:45:05 Technically rzr's misspelling. Feb 15 23:45:14 <_trine> rzr, its not a question of is there an alternative because the answer sometimes is there is none Feb 15 23:45:14 nah it's moego.org Feb 15 23:45:36 my nickname's moe :p Feb 15 23:45:36 kerio: Oh, you mean "uned" instead of "used". That was rzr's misspelling, not mine. Feb 15 23:45:54 er, yeah Feb 15 23:46:17 well and his full name was Jeff Moe afaik Feb 15 23:46:19 rzr: And then there's the phone and internet capability, which are mainly to support the main activities (e.g now you can transfer files to your home server) etc. Feb 15 23:46:19 did i ? Feb 15 23:46:43 actually i have a n810 and a freerunner i never use Feb 15 23:46:44 rzr: You said something about "uning" ssh, so kerio said he's never "uned" ssh before. Feb 15 23:46:54 <_trine> my 6310i is a great phone 2 weeks between each battery charge Feb 15 23:46:56 Jeff "Go" Moe Feb 15 23:47:10 rzr: In that case, you may not have as great an additional benefit getting N900. Seriously, the phone interface is clumsy and sucks. Feb 15 23:47:11 uning gnu tools Feb 15 23:47:13 true Feb 15 23:47:28 anyway, night Feb 15 23:47:40 <_trine> MohammadAG, go to bed Feb 15 23:47:40 rzr: Basically, I hate my N900 because it sucks, but because there's nothing else like it, I have no choice and I have to use it. Feb 15 23:47:54 rzr: I hear the N810 has a much better keyboard (4 rows ... drool...) Feb 15 23:48:08 kwtm: it's not better, the n810 pressure point is worse Feb 15 23:48:10 n810 size is good Feb 15 23:48:15 the n900 sucks, but everything else sucks much much more Feb 15 23:48:17 pupnik_: Oh, really? Okay. Feb 15 23:48:18 no need to be smaller Feb 15 23:48:23 Deciding on a new phone and thinking about an older n900?? Are there other phones that will supoort maemo at this time or on the horizon? Feb 15 23:48:32 a 4-row n900 would be better Feb 15 23:48:39 kerio: Yeah, you could say that. It's just that, with a little effort, they could have made things SO much better! Feb 15 23:48:52 <_trine> you can turn an N900 into a torch so you can put the key in your door,, what do you want Feb 15 23:48:58 <_trine> :P Feb 15 23:49:02 browsing the web on n810 is a tricky mission Feb 15 23:49:12 joc: Well, I think the N900 will take a long time to become obsolete because it's so powerful. Feb 15 23:49:16 pupnik_: that'S clearly a question of personal preference Feb 15 23:49:18 n900 had the best web browsing on the planet when it was released Feb 15 23:49:30 kerio: I dial the phone with vim now because I can't phoning with the actual built-in "Phone" app. Feb 15 23:49:30 (pressure point) Feb 15 23:49:32 DocScrutinizer: what would be a drawback to a 4-row kbd Feb 15 23:49:37 DocScrutinizer: oh ok Feb 15 23:49:51 kwtm: well if only we can flash customrom w/ all drivers Feb 15 23:49:57 DocScrutinizer: No. The N810's keyboard is objectively terrible in this regard. Feb 15 23:50:06 i agree with derf Feb 15 23:50:15 I would have to agree after my research today ;). Very cool. I did notice something about bluetooth keyboard support having issue. Is this the case? Feb 15 23:50:17 it's like poking a puppy in the eye Feb 15 23:50:20 derf: no, I still like my N810 as much as my N900 Feb 15 23:50:28 wrt kbd Feb 15 23:50:36 DocScrutinizer: you're wrong - the pressure feedback is terrible Feb 15 23:50:43 I'm just waiting for my slide-out keyboard to break mechanically from all the sliding in and out. The onscreen keyboard is impractical. Feb 15 23:50:44 so what? Feb 15 23:50:47 The N900 was not a _big_ improvement. But it was an improvement. Feb 15 23:50:48 well i get used to Feb 15 23:50:57 it's still better than any on screen kb Feb 15 23:50:57 if it's ok for me, what can you possibly do about it? Feb 15 23:51:05 it's not ok for me Feb 15 23:51:16 i would have RETURNED the device Feb 15 23:51:18 derf: For me, the improvement in the N900 is that I can use a single SIM card to make phone calls and to get on the Internet. Feb 15 23:51:18 remove your gloves Feb 15 23:51:38 I was just talking about the keyboard. Feb 15 23:51:52 I think the resistive touchscreen is *too* sensitive on my N900 and needs a software modification to make it more usable. Feb 15 23:51:59 The N900 is a huge improvement in many other regards. Feb 15 23:52:00 what's a mega pita on N810 is the key MAPPING Feb 15 23:52:08 esp of "blue" level Feb 15 23:52:13 DocScrutinizer: easy to fix Feb 15 23:52:27 yeah, but hard to learn by heart :-P Feb 15 23:52:31 In particular, when you touch the high-rez screen with a finger that touches more than one pixel at a time, the N900 thinks you're tracing a tiny wiggly line. Feb 15 23:52:34 i did Feb 15 23:52:53 kwtm, that is normal and has occured from dawn of time Feb 15 23:53:15 They should make it so that when that tiny line (the N900 thinks) I am tracing is entirely contained within the area of a button, it should be regarded as a button press, not a drag. Feb 15 23:53:22 centre of pressure point and it moves around Feb 15 23:53:31 What are the odds of the e7's drivers being realeased and maemo working there or on the n8 - not that symbian is gone with the nokia/m$ merger ? Feb 15 23:53:31 lcuk: It certainly has occurred from the dawn of time. I would say it has room for improvement. Feb 15 23:53:42 now/not Feb 15 23:53:45 so getting a n900 to replace a n800 and use it as main phone does not worth it ? Feb 15 23:54:01 <_trine> how many people on this channel are suffering for paranoid depression since the announcement ? Feb 15 23:54:05 rzr, n900 is lightyears ahead of n800 Feb 15 23:54:09 * rzr _o/ Feb 15 23:54:09 * joc is Feb 15 23:54:26 lcuk: Okay, look here, I'm not going to debate what's "right" or what's "abnormal", ok? I'm just saying that under certain circumstances it would be easier to know that the user does not intend to trace, and put in a software patch for it. Feb 15 23:54:35 lcuk: well it looks that both as stuck in the past Feb 15 23:54:47 Does anyone want to sell me a n900? :) Feb 15 23:54:54 rzr, not really I also adore my 10" inch slate Feb 15 23:55:02 _trine: actually last time i fell similar is when amiga died Feb 15 23:55:04 I have said for years I wanted one ;) Feb 15 23:55:14 rzr: Depends what you wanht of the phone. My N900 has suffered poor response time (e.g. 2-3 seconds to respond to button presses, sometimes causing me to miss calls). Feb 15 23:55:21 <_trine> rzr, \\o/ Feb 15 23:55:42 but there is natami now Feb 15 23:56:00 so expect some nit running on fpga in 10 years Feb 15 23:57:02 actually i did not get a n900 before because i wanted to get that n9 or any meego phone Feb 15 23:57:37 now i regreat i should have jump in the maemo5 train and save it from elopcalypse Feb 15 23:57:38 rzr: If you're holding out for a later phone, might want to get a N900 while there is still a manufacturer's warranty. Feb 15 23:57:38 kwtm, even with a wiggle in press (very wiggle infact, moving finger aorund once button is pressed before release) once I release finger it works Feb 15 23:57:49 which buttons don't operate like that for you? Feb 15 23:57:51 I'm assuming it could be possible for maemo and the e7 to be a couple if the drivers were realeased, by say, a disgruntled employee? Feb 15 23:58:39 ha ha, ha. Feb 15 23:58:50 lcuk: None of the buttons work like that for me. On investigation (by tapping on PenSketch, for example), I see that I'm tracing curlicues, which I presume is the cause. Otherwise, the buttons just simply don't respond half the time. Feb 15 23:59:41 By the way, lcuk, were you the one who wrote the backup system for the N900? I seem to recall something about that. You know, the app for backing up contacts and screen config and all that. Feb 15 23:59:46 I just opened calculator Feb 15 23:59:50 pressed "1" Feb 16 00:00:08 pressed (but not released) +, rolled finger all the way to bottom of "+" then released Feb 16 00:00:10 then pressed 2 Feb 16 00:00:20 it gave nice answer of 3 Feb 16 00:00:32 lcuk: I'm very happy that your N900 works for you. Unfortunately, unless you are willing to swap devices with me, mine doesn't work that way in: phone, contacts, and most of the other apps that I use. Feb 16 00:00:56 lcuk: Okay, I just opened phone. Feb 16 00:01:12 Are there phones on the horizon that maemo will be intended for or do I need to buy a beagleboad? :) Feb 16 00:01:18 kwtm, I am merely trying to see your problem since it is curious yours does that Feb 16 00:01:34 I just tapped 123456789. The screen says: 234679 Feb 16 00:01:50 joc: that isn't really how things work Feb 16 00:01:57 i have no idea what components are in the e7 Feb 16 00:02:11 but i'd imagine you're talking about a half dozen to a dozen that'd need help Feb 16 00:02:22 I'm sure it's very curious to you, lcuk. You also didn't believe me when I said my phone kept locking up during the bootup process, and I must have installed something from extras-devel or something... Feb 16 00:02:38 So it might just be that my model is somehow different from yours. Feb 16 00:03:17 I don't know. But I have come to accept that taps on fingers don't work half the time.. I presume it's the "wiggle" thing, but maybe it's just --well, I dunno, the way the resistive screen is. Feb 16 00:03:38 I had the same problem on my Treo 650, my TRGpro, HandEra, and PalmIII, so I've learned to live with it. Feb 16 00:03:49 timeless: Time will tell. I find it so interesting that Nokia releases three symbian phones and then announces that merger. Seems like a huge pr faux pas.? Feb 16 00:03:59 Resistive screen should always work, unless you tap very, very lightly - under maybe 10g Feb 16 00:04:05 I measured it once, but I forgot Feb 16 00:04:13 joc: you've seen nokia do good pr? Feb 16 00:04:26 joc: people are paid to do tasks Feb 16 00:04:32 SpeedEvil: It's not that it doesn't work; it's that (at least in the Palm models) it develops these spurious strokes, but it takes about 9 months to 1 year to develop it. Feb 16 00:04:48 and their bonus structure is based on accomplishing the tasks they agreed to accomplish roughly when they indicated they would do so Feb 16 00:04:55 kwtm: Do you play lots of games? Feb 16 00:05:02 SpeedEvil: So, after a while, when you just press on a point on the screen, the screen thinks you actuall made a vertical stroke that ends at your point. Feb 16 00:05:03 if you were ordered on jan 1 to do something by mar 1 Feb 16 00:05:10 and you had it ready on feb 1 Feb 16 00:05:19 would you just sort of sit on it forever? Feb 16 00:05:35 SpeedEvil: Almost never. All my games are sudoku like. The one action game I played, for maybe 10 times before realizing I suck at action games, used the keyboard for controls. Feb 16 00:05:43 if someone had a secret that they might announce on valentines day, which might cause your bonus structure to go away Feb 16 00:05:52 would you still sit on it, just on the off chance that it could make you get a worse bonus? Feb 16 00:06:06 Timeless: Well, I suppose it is a good way to downsize. Feb 16 00:06:11 a product is the product of many many many commitments Feb 16 00:06:20 a phone may be promised to operators Feb 16 00:06:29 and they may have purchase orders for them Feb 16 00:06:37 they may have actually been *produced* Feb 16 00:06:50 in which case you've paid for the parts, assembly, packaging, and storage Feb 16 00:07:01 the only way you can get anything back is by selling them Feb 16 00:07:19 but in this case, the announcements / products came before a decision to change direction Feb 16 00:07:30 Though they may not be in a state where their sale will reflect positively on your company. Feb 16 00:07:32 so it isn't like anyone actually had any reason not to do what they were paid to do Feb 16 00:07:50 SpeedEvil: nothing has been of late :) Feb 16 00:07:50 Btw, I still have this VERY curious problem where, most of the time I have no trouble mapping keys, but two keys are mapped to ]{ --if I press Shift-Fn J or Shift-Fn K, then two characters are typed. No idea why. The key map file looks normal to me (Shift-Fn J is ] and Shift-Fn K is { ) Feb 16 00:08:26 timeless: Well - true. :) Feb 16 00:09:25 Are there phones on the horizon for maemo or are we waiting? Thanks. Feb 16 00:09:53 the maemo organization ceased to exist a while ago Feb 16 00:10:02 so no, you aren't waiting for any maemo branded products Feb 16 00:10:02 and meego? Feb 16 00:10:12 that was the replacement org name Feb 16 00:10:42 the last public memo i read in the press seemed to indicate that there would be one "meego related product" coming from "nokia" "this year" Feb 16 00:10:55 i'm not sure if i got the terminology on that right, so please don't quote mme Feb 16 00:10:58 s/mme/me/ Feb 16 00:10:59 So, the organziation and the linux foundation put an end to it? It's gone? What are you guys doing here? :) Feb 16 00:11:00 timeless meant: i'm not sure if i got the terminology on that right, so please don't quote me Feb 16 00:11:09 do feel free to google for it or check the press releases Feb 16 00:11:16 <_trine> is there going to be any counselling on this channel on how to deal with suicides Feb 16 00:11:21 <_trine> :P Feb 16 00:11:26 LF has nothing to do w/ Maemo Feb 16 00:11:41 Watch, Nokia is going to start "fixing" warrantied N900s by replacing them with WP7 phones. Feb 16 00:11:46 and as for meego, the entity within nokia is managed by nokia, not by LF Feb 16 00:12:13 <_trine> to look on the brighter side we can now all legitimately buy iphones Feb 16 00:12:22 timeless; apparently meego is a part of the linux foundation, their logo is at the bottom of the meego page ? Feb 16 00:12:34 GAN900: i still remember an AST386 being replaced by an AST486 when some hardware component failed under warranty Feb 16 00:12:39 * timeless was quite happy w/ that Feb 16 00:12:50 my complaint at the time was that we didn't get a free CRT upgrade :) Feb 16 00:13:09 silly non integrated / interchangable detachable components Feb 16 00:13:31 So, no one is going to pick up the pieces and continue an opensource mobile OS? Feb 16 00:13:41 joc: err Feb 16 00:13:53 nokia contributed some resources to a MeeGo project Feb 16 00:13:59 most of which is being managed by Intel Feb 16 00:14:07 with contributions from various other vendors Feb 16 00:14:16 and there's also LiMo (?) Feb 16 00:14:31 so there are a couple of linux phone platforms available Feb 16 00:14:44 and presumably hardware vendors which will use them Feb 16 00:14:46 Isn't LiMo mostly focussed on the fundamental non-UI side? Feb 16 00:14:47 Aava (?) Feb 16 00:15:16 SpeedEvil: rasterman was here earlier noting his employer was working on a ui for something Feb 16 00:15:33 Ah. Feb 16 00:15:35 timeless: And there was also OpenMoko etc., but without (strong, hopefully) support from a big company like Google/Nokia/IBM/Sun, just the fact that it's Linux by itself doesn't make it sustainable. Feb 16 00:15:53 sun doesn't exist Feb 16 00:15:54 timeless: It's probably a working tricorder. He always seems to have the best hardware. Feb 16 00:16:05 heh Feb 16 00:16:14 haha Feb 16 00:16:16 kwtm: but yeah, openmoko never went anywhere useful Feb 16 00:16:29 the n900 volume was actually very impressive for no advertising Feb 16 00:16:49 openmoko senior devs left the project to work on webos Feb 16 00:16:53 timeless: I don't suppose you can reveal any hints as to that volume? Feb 16 00:17:09 Mousey: Before that, the managment was comprehensively screwing up. Feb 16 00:17:14 i can't find any useful google hits, no :( Feb 16 00:17:22 * Mousey thinks . o ( darnit! ) Feb 16 00:17:41 it's worth remembering that there was more demand than supply initially Feb 16 00:18:24 I was running on my Freerunner for a while before I got my N900. It ... works but it's the last 10% that's missing last I tried. Nokia got a lot closer to "DONE" IMHO. Feb 16 00:18:34 Well, I suppose this is evidece that the n900 will live on forever, so I'll buy one. I'm also not going to give up hope that some form of hardware will run the maemo source. Feb 16 00:18:47 my guess is that you could get vaguely usable numbers from maemo.org update pings Feb 16 00:18:48 i miss my n810 Feb 16 00:18:53 if you tried to datamine Feb 16 00:18:53 Openmoko hardware still has active development on. Feb 16 00:18:56 why on gods green earth did it stop being made! =( Feb 16 00:18:59 timeless: I tried to do that. Feb 16 00:19:09 SpeedEvil: how;d it go? Feb 16 00:19:20 timeless: It seemed to indicate fairly low numbers IIRC - ~50K for fmms, for example. Feb 16 00:19:42 timeless: Yeah, I heard they didn't know how to manage the open community, thought they could just publish specs and sit back and let the software pour in... Feb 16 00:19:52 * SpeedEvil checks logs. Feb 16 00:20:05 speedevil: thanks Feb 16 00:20:26 SpeedEvil: sorry, 50k for fmms? an item which the majority of users wouldn't want/need/seek? Feb 16 00:20:39 timeless: yes Feb 16 00:21:10 <_trine> heres what an N900 is worth now :- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nokia-N900-Mobile-Phone-/260736457849?pt=UK_MobilePhones_MobilePhones&hash=item3cb51a9c79 Feb 16 00:21:30 _trine: You're an ass-hat Feb 16 00:21:42 <_trine> now now Feb 16 00:21:57 fwiw, http://www.allaboutmeego.com/news/item/11601_N900_shipment_numbers-100000_i.php seems like the most positive item i've found Feb 16 00:22:17 _trine: Go and look at completed sales. >220 quid for ones in good condition. Feb 16 00:22:52 * jonwil has posted a list of the 7 or so "lets open this" requests that still make sense http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Open_development/Why_the_closed_packages#List_of_outstanding_requests_that_are_still_relavent Feb 16 00:22:53 From my research ~290 USD used ~$350 new from amazon. Feb 16 00:22:54 <_trine> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nokia-N900-Mobile-Phone-/180626242136?pt=UK_MobilePhones_MobilePhones&hash=item2a0e29ba58 Feb 16 00:23:00 http://completed.shop.ebay.co.uk/Mobile-Smart-Phones-/171954/i.html?rt=nc&LH_Complete=1&_nkw=n900&_catref=1&_dmpt=UK_MobilePhones_MobilePhones&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m283&_rdc=1 Feb 16 00:23:17 All the other "open this" requests were solved somehow, had no concrete use case or were blocked for legitimate reasons (e.g. BME) Feb 16 00:24:12 <_trine> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NOKIA-N900-MOBILE-PHONE-EXCELLENT-CONDITION-UNLOCKED-/260736699955?pt=UK_MobilePhones_MobilePhones&hash=item3cb51e4e33 Feb 16 00:24:25 <_trine> no one wants one any more Feb 16 00:24:34 Is the maemo source code not available? I figure I should find it and sort it away with my symbian source. Feb 16 00:25:47 _trine: It's not over till the auction ends. You should be checking completed. They are still going for ~$300 US depending on condition etc Feb 16 00:26:03 80% opensrouce..? I still think somone needs to pick up the pieces and continue with development. Feb 16 00:26:56 joc: Please do! Feb 16 00:27:11 joc: The closed source bits are unfortunately cleverly designed. Feb 16 00:27:11 <_trine> krayon, not so there is one at least that is buy now 180 Feb 16 00:27:39 _trine: Link, I'll buy it now :D Feb 16 00:27:59 <_trine> krayon, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nokia-N900-Mobile-Phone-/180626242136?pt=UK_MobilePhones_MobilePhones&hash=item2a0e29ba58 Feb 16 00:28:26 SpeedEvil: it appears so, "not funcational without the 20% which is closed", but the people of #maemo are going to let it die? Guys, wtf? At least post it on github for bored developers to tinker with.. eh? Feb 16 00:28:58 It someone can point me in the direction of the source I'll post it right now. Feb 16 00:29:01 _trine: Um, that's 180 POUNDS, I said $300 US (I'm in AU but most people understand US$ so I used it as the "common" currency) Feb 16 00:29:35 once it becomes 100% open the sucide rate might go down.. ;-) Feb 16 00:30:02 <_trine> krayon, I didnt know I was speaking to an ozy Feb 16 00:30:29 _trine: :P regardless, I did say "~$300 US" and you said "not so" Feb 16 00:30:46 <_trine> krayon, and it isnt Feb 16 00:31:10 joc: No, they're not letting it die. Feb 16 00:31:36 joc: My point is that the closed source bits are _exactly_ the design you would pick if you wanted to answer the question: Feb 16 00:31:46 Looks like this is the most recent http://tinyurl.com/y7y7pd9. Is there anything further along elsewhere? Feb 16 00:32:31 <_trine> krayon, 300.00 USD = 185.863 GBP Feb 16 00:33:19 speedevil: Well, good to hear that it's not going to die. Feb 16 00:33:40 joc: The question 'how can we make it so that developers can iwrite programs for it, but that no other mobile maker can make use of it, or easily the programs that are developed' Feb 16 00:34:02 The answer to this is a poorly documented stack of daemons, with multiple interconnections in unclear ways. Feb 16 00:34:13 So you can't simply replace one, you need to replace them all. Feb 16 00:34:18 This - coincidentally... Feb 16 00:34:43 _trine: That's not much under (FWIW though, that's one of the cheapest I've seen in the last month) Feb 16 00:35:19 <_trine> krayon, nearly's dont count :p Feb 16 00:36:33 <_trine> anyway I have 2 N900's so I am hoping it does carry on Feb 16 00:36:37 speedevil: Sounds like something a group of developers need to refactor. Feb 16 00:37:08 * joc just registered on maemo.gitorious.org Feb 16 00:37:23 joc: Refactoring is _hard_ Feb 16 00:37:47 joc: As you need to rip out essentially undocumented stuff, that talks to other undocumented stuff in undocumented ways. Feb 16 00:38:28 Speedevil: is maemo not the best opensource tablet/phone os currently? Feb 16 00:38:40 yeah the connectivity middleware is the biggest problem with maemo Feb 16 00:38:47 <_trine> krayon, I found another http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nokia-N900-Mobile-Phone-internet-tablet-GPS-/180625292184?pt=UK_MobilePhones_MobilePhones&hash=item2a0e1b3b98 Feb 16 00:39:12 joc: It's rpactically the only one Feb 16 00:39:27 <_trine> is this the start of the rush to sell Feb 16 00:39:51 _trine: you say that like it's a bad thing. Feb 16 00:40:00 _trine: I hope so ... I'll be doing what I did with the Treo680 and buying enough to last until something better comes out (if ever) Feb 16 00:40:04 So, if we give up development we all will be using ios, android or windows. I'm in favor of not giving up. There wre checkin's to the repository 7 hour ago. Feb 16 00:40:17 _trine: There are a _large_ number of young, and poor hackers, who cannot easily buy a new, expensive phone. Feb 16 00:40:19 <_trine> SpeedEvil, I am just reporting what I see Feb 16 00:40:48 _trine: Development often gets significantly more contributors (though others drop off of course) when prices fall. Feb 16 00:41:07 <_trine> SpeedEvil, I hope so Feb 16 00:41:39 * _trine keeps his fingers and legs crossed Feb 16 00:42:43 <_trine> however I am not optimistic Feb 16 00:44:24 <_trine> since the announcement by Nokia the N900 is now obsolete and thats a fact Feb 16 00:46:00 it just got more interesting than ever Feb 16 00:46:04 and more valuable Feb 16 00:46:20 bah you should be happy , the future of freesoftware is cygwin on wp7 ! Feb 16 00:46:30 and it's just as much fun as has been last week Feb 16 00:47:06 and I might get a third one, when they actually get that cheap now Feb 16 00:47:17 I just got my first N900 yesterday Feb 16 00:47:26 congrats Trapp Feb 16 00:47:32 enjoy Feb 16 00:47:35 which style keyboard? Feb 16 00:47:35 <_trine> actually I feel feel quite upset at what has happened and I'm sure that goes for a lot of people here Feb 16 00:47:38 thanks, I love it so far Feb 16 00:47:50 I wish i can one antographied by mr elop Feb 16 00:47:55 +get Feb 16 00:48:37 do any of you knwo WHO in nokia killed maemo? Feb 16 00:48:44 that wasn't Elop Feb 16 00:48:50 that was some other buttmunchers Feb 16 00:48:51 This like this is the offical repo: http://meego.gitorious.org/meegotouch. Cheers! Feb 16 00:48:57 who Feb 16 00:48:58 Whoever agreed the merger with moblin. Feb 16 01:03:24 * DocScrutinizer wonders idly what's been wrong now with mxr.maemo.org, for joc Feb 16 01:03:48 DocScrutinizer: Perhaps Elop pulled the plug? :( Feb 16 01:03:54 nah Feb 16 01:04:56 http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/ doesn't look like pulled plug Feb 16 01:05:01 hw did maemo get dumped Feb 16 01:06:51 DocScrutinizer: http://mxr.maemo.org/harmattan/source/ this is the problem :p Feb 16 01:07:21 meh Feb 16 01:08:46 For all I know so far, I really, honestly hope harmattan never gets published. Neither source nor any PR1.4 meego flavoured or whatever Feb 16 01:10:56 DocScrutinizer: why's that? Feb 16 01:15:19 harmattan-HE aiui is targeted to accomplish some sorta "compatibility" to meego, both in GUI and some system parts (Qt et al). So for N900 it's a 0.1 version for a huge part of user experience, and also for developers. The compatibility is towards a deadend meego devices branch, the harmattan pseudo-meego for sure will be full of bugs and no chance to ever get mature like maemo proper is now. Plus I don't like meego UI for all I've seen so Feb 16 01:15:21 far Feb 16 01:17:12 ah, i see Feb 16 01:18:43 i havent deciided on the meego yet just put it on me netbook Feb 16 01:19:10 so in my opinion it's a first class funeral for maemo, all users updating to a 'new' OS in betastage, then Nokia letting down and all the developers won't care about fremantle anymore, will get pissed with harmattan, and with a meego that never comes to a mature state Feb 16 01:19:19 but good point on the dead end bit DocScrutinizer51 Feb 16 01:19:30 *-51 Feb 16 01:19:30 I'd think things like ofono code (or camera/gps/whatever sources) might be nice though, if there was some of that in harmattan Feb 16 01:20:58 only IF they'd work better or at least as good as maemo stuff does now Feb 16 01:21:03 DocScrutinizer: yeah, wouldn't it provide useful sources for a Free maemo-derivative? people wouldn't have to actually use it Feb 16 01:23:11 BCMM_: I don't see that. the closed things will stay closed, the new things will be full of bugs and poorly integrated with the old heritage, and you can't randomly swap subsystems between maemo and harmattan Feb 16 01:26:00 DocScrutinizer: so what do you think the outlook is like for an open OS on the n900? Feb 16 01:27:03 it will arrive when nobody cares about it anymore Feb 16 01:44:42 Guys Feb 16 01:44:46 anyone awake? :) Feb 16 01:47:34 :( ok no one Feb 16 01:47:34 lol Feb 16 01:49:47 hi Feb 16 01:51:07 * jonwil is here Feb 16 01:56:40 It should be possible to find out all the things that talk to CSD and its plugins over dbus and from there figure out how hard it is to replace CSD with ofono and which other bits would need replacement. Would also need to trace anything thats using the various libraries like libsms that isnt csd and its plugins. Feb 16 01:56:53 beford: Feb 16 01:56:54 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=947626#post947626 Feb 16 01:57:01 jonwil, you to Feb 16 01:57:02 o Feb 16 01:57:03 :p Feb 16 01:57:06 check out Feb 16 01:58:41 hehe Feb 16 01:59:06 xD Feb 16 02:01:15 lol got to 300 without missing any and got bored :P Feb 16 02:01:18 also my wrist hurts Feb 16 02:02:51 xD Feb 16 02:03:01 rm_work: it's good for the stress Feb 16 02:03:08 to keep destroying those WP7's Feb 16 02:03:09 :p Feb 16 02:03:14 lol Feb 16 02:03:23 I will update the game when I got time to make it less boring though Feb 16 02:03:36 like "level up" Feb 16 02:03:39 speed up Feb 16 02:03:41 music Feb 16 02:03:43 etc :P Feb 16 02:04:13 oh and there is always a thanks button guys :p Feb 16 02:20:09 I'm off Feb 16 02:20:11 nite all :) Feb 16 02:25:58 good grief, that's an over-the-top Flashsite... Feb 16 02:26:07 (i mean, the rest of that site) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Feb 16 02:59:57 2011