**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 19 02:59:57 2011 Feb 19 03:25:07 yesterday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX-gTobCJHs&NR=1&feature=fvwp --- tomorrow: http://nokiapland.com/ Feb 19 03:28:50 btw this site somewhat changed in a strange way :-P http://www.nokiaplanb.com Feb 19 03:32:19 DocScrutinizer: It is twitter?! Feb 19 03:32:59 What is nokia plan b? Feb 19 03:33:57 http://www.finanzen.net/chart/Nokia Feb 19 03:34:11 it's an abortion pill for all the innovation that's been growing inside of R&D belly the last 5 years at Nokia company Feb 19 03:40:48 is there an aeroplane mode for the N900? Feb 19 03:41:24 yes Feb 19 03:41:24 yes there is Feb 19 03:43:02 how do I enable it? Feb 19 03:43:29 pondering this http://press.nokia.com/2008/02/25/nokia-and-university-of-cambridge-launch-the-morph-a-nanotechnology-concept-device/ is almost exactly 3 years old now, and realizing where we are now, I guess http://nokiapland.com/ is somewhat overoptimistic... Feb 19 03:43:52 By signing up for a free Launchpad account – which normally cost €300 a year – developers will get free admission to the next Nokia World/Nokia Developer Summit event, a free Nokia E7 device, a free Nokia Windows Phone 7 device (as soon as it becomes available) and free tech support for three months. Feb 19 03:44:10 Can I run maemo on an E7? Feb 19 03:44:19 Meego maybe? Feb 19 03:44:19 pfff Feb 19 03:44:28 well if you sign up right now, do you still get that offer? Feb 19 03:45:34 Thats what I am hoping for Feb 19 03:45:39 me too Feb 19 03:45:40 I need a second and a third phhone Feb 19 03:45:45 I'd love to have a Symbian phone Feb 19 03:45:57 my n900 is fucked up Feb 19 03:46:05 It is written yesterday Feb 19 03:46:05 stupid usb port Feb 19 03:46:37 I'd take a WP7 if it was given to me for free Feb 19 03:47:03 otherwise I won't buy one Feb 19 03:47:28 YEah, I have a launchpad account :D Feb 19 03:48:04 how do you know? Feb 19 03:48:43 I managed to log in Feb 19 03:48:49 But I don't understand it Feb 19 03:49:31 Doh, wrong launchpad :S Feb 19 03:50:15 Do you think I can still register and get it? Feb 19 03:50:35 I just did =\ Feb 19 03:50:39 I hope so Feb 19 03:51:05 Primary role, Developer Feb 19 03:51:08 Or crative Feb 19 03:51:11 I am not sure :S Feb 19 03:51:16 lolcat, sign up then email saying you never got the email =\ Feb 19 03:53:40 I am now setting up a developer profile Feb 19 03:53:48 everything in the email is in the webpage Feb 19 03:55:03 comawhite: Brief account description? Feb 19 03:55:10 lolcat, well apparently, you sign up, then you ask for request to join the developer programme Feb 19 03:55:21 lolcat, I put self developer Feb 19 03:55:21 =\ Feb 19 03:55:30 I didn't know what to put there Feb 19 03:57:20 lolcat, after you sign up, you relogin, then click the Forum.Nokia logo and go to My Programs, click it, then apply for another program, click it, then go to "Go to Form Nokia Launchpad homepage (for member individuals only) Feb 19 03:57:27 then you tell them why you should get accepted Feb 19 03:58:06 I hope I can still get those phones :( Feb 19 03:58:11 Launchpad for induviduals? Feb 19 03:58:16 Is that the rigth page? Feb 19 03:58:49 http://www.forum.nokia.com/Developer_Programs/ Feb 19 04:00:54 IControlpad now available for gaming with your cellphone - very cool indie project - http://icontrolpad.com/ http://www.gp2x.de/shop/index.php/cPath/45 Feb 19 04:01:24 pupnik, nice Feb 19 04:01:47 pupnik, too bad it's only for iPhone Feb 19 04:02:12 comawhite: not hard to add padding for other devices Feb 19 04:02:26 but they don't have the resources to make moulds for everything Feb 19 04:02:47 okay I see Feb 19 04:02:48 now Feb 19 04:03:12 I think my application will be declined I suck at this -.-" Feb 19 04:03:20 get to play Final Fantasy 7 on PSX emulator Feb 19 04:03:31 yeah with decent controls for e.g. Feb 19 04:03:32 lolcat, good luck mate Feb 19 04:04:08 * DocScrutinizer2 burps Feb 19 04:04:47 not going to push up their developers-count just to get a crappy winphone Feb 19 04:05:06 comawhite: You too Feb 19 04:05:10 :) Feb 19 04:05:15 hell, I got some 40 phones here, they can keep theirs Feb 19 04:05:20 if I get it, I'm throwing my N900 away Feb 19 04:05:37 comawhite: Throw it in my direction will you? :P Feb 19 04:05:47 lolcat, give me $250? Feb 19 04:05:58 or $200 Feb 19 04:06:03 pffff Feb 19 04:06:07 How broke is it? Feb 19 04:06:17 it works perfectly, except the usb port Feb 19 04:06:26 how broke is he? Feb 19 04:06:28 So it can't charge? Feb 19 04:06:30 I have to use ssh to send it files Feb 19 04:07:12 but it comes with a usb/wall charger in 1, 2 batteries, original everything, plus it already has skin protections on it Feb 19 04:07:17 I first have to see what I can do with the Windows Mobile and if I got it Feb 19 04:07:37 omfg, skin protection ;-D Feb 19 04:07:51 lolcat, I heard I can still send it to Nokia and get it fixed Feb 19 04:07:55 comawhite: Oo, if I don't get this deal, I migth go for it. What part of the earth are you on? Feb 19 04:07:57 just too lazy Feb 19 04:08:05 lolcat, US Feb 19 04:08:15 comawhite: I have a 5 year warranty on mine, it is about 4 years old now Feb 19 04:08:19 Or less than that Feb 19 04:08:29 It's never been dropped :) Feb 19 04:08:39 So if it is caused by normal usage I can return it... Feb 19 04:08:53 Oh, crap, your keyboard is probably not noridic? Feb 19 04:08:58 I'll only sell it if I get those 2 phones for free Feb 19 04:09:03 else I need it Feb 19 04:09:19 Then you should hope you apply bether than me Feb 19 04:09:33 I said I was writing social geotaggin software, and a social website xD Feb 19 04:09:40 I hope I get accepted and still get a chance at the phone Feb 19 04:09:56 With: "exciting new features I can't disclose here" :P Feb 19 04:09:59 * DocScrutinizer sighs Feb 19 04:10:50 lolcat, what new features? Feb 19 04:10:59 I didn't specify Feb 19 04:11:03 wait I signed a NDA with Nokia o_O Feb 19 04:11:11 Trade secrets, can't tell nokia about them Feb 19 04:11:15 NDA? Feb 19 04:11:24 non disclosure agreement Feb 19 04:11:24 Non Disclosure Agreement Feb 19 04:11:39 I guess I did too then? Feb 19 04:12:05 mpfffffffff sigh Feb 19 04:12:25 As long as your irc username is diffrent Feb 19 04:13:29 lolcat, just go to your profile, on the right side, developer programme, then at the very bottom you will see NDA Feb 19 04:13:29 Oh, this migth be the kind of place nokia hangs out? Feb 19 04:13:41 Title Date Approver Feb 19 04:13:41 NDA 19-Feb-2011 Feb 19 04:15:24 wait, weren't you the guy that bragged with uploading lxp's injection drivers to rapidshare? Feb 19 04:15:41 me? Feb 19 04:16:01 I can't see it Feb 19 04:16:23 But in my defence Id say I was drunk and not legaly fit to make a legal agreement Feb 19 04:16:53 I probably won't get the phone since I only signed up after it was announced Feb 19 04:16:54 comawhite: obviously not you Feb 19 04:17:15 But it is like the day after Feb 19 04:17:43 yeah Feb 19 04:17:45 comawhite: To assist you with your development activities in the near-term, we will ship one free Nokia E7 device to all program members. Additionally, we will send to you one free Nokia WP7 device, as soon as it becomes available. Feb 19 04:18:01 Maybe we get the WP7 when it becomes available? Feb 19 04:18:02 i hope everyone who gets a winphone does nothing to develop for it Feb 19 04:18:21 I migth sell mine and get a proper phone Feb 19 04:18:36 pupnik, I'm not going to be arsed about it, but if I get a fucking phone for free, why bitch about it? :P Feb 19 04:18:39 pupnik: look at lolcat - odds are exceptionally good exactly this will happen Feb 19 04:18:41 I'll develop for it Feb 19 04:19:02 I could maybe write a forkbomb for it Feb 19 04:19:25 or upload to rapidshare Feb 19 04:19:29 :-P Feb 19 04:19:41 If I get a free phone I will see if it has enough battery time to be a secondary phone Feb 19 04:20:12 lolcat: what makes you think we get any wiser with you telling us about that? Feb 19 04:21:04 No idea Feb 19 04:22:14 A nokia 1616 is what I will get I think Feb 19 05:47:46 morning Feb 19 05:48:02 Good morning Feb 19 06:38:07 is there a address book plug in for contacts for n900 Feb 19 06:38:47 or an address book app for n900 that you guys suggest Feb 19 07:04:57 iluminator101: can you add fields to the contacts? Feb 19 07:22:34 iluminator101 Feb 19 07:25:10 http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Calao-Systems-Snowball/ Feb 19 09:13:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Trak The first computer i ever 'programmed' ;P Feb 19 09:40:41 pupnik: http://www.nikbull.co.uk/Angeldust/Acorn_files/acorn_electron.jpg Feb 19 09:40:45 My first Feb 19 09:45:32 nice alterego Feb 19 10:10:29 I still need an Atom and a A540 for my collection Feb 19 11:05:32 hello Feb 19 11:08:29 question: a second hand n900 for 180€ is good? Feb 19 11:09:03 niala_: are you bidding on the one ending in 2 hours? Feb 19 11:09:29 median used price in .de is 250 euro Feb 19 11:09:57 for new? Feb 19 11:10:01 used Feb 19 11:11:12 yes, that's what I see on the internet Feb 19 11:11:32 seller phanter01phanter? Feb 19 11:14:36 something to be tested first ? Feb 19 11:25:35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-nMr886E44&feature=youtube_gdata google real-time speech translation for android Feb 19 11:31:21 US military wants software and services to manage upwards of 500 fake online personas designed to interact with social media, presumably including such sites as Facebook and Twitter. Feb 19 11:33:28 Cool. Now when people say stuff we don't like, we can just say their shills for the US Military! Feb 19 11:35:07 the 'eyes-free' GUI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS-ju61vOQw&feature=youtube_gdata Feb 19 11:37:06 RST38h, OH MY LORD! Watson and now this. We are being taken over by computers I tells ya!!!11!! Feb 19 13:32:32 sony failing agaibn Feb 19 13:32:34 lol Feb 19 13:33:11 niow not only you can be using psn without any ban, you can ban yourself Feb 19 13:34:14 mooo Feb 19 13:34:28 * leafpad pats DocScrutinizer Feb 19 13:35:11 :o is konversation available for n900? Feb 19 13:36:01 dunno if somebody went crazy and compiled it, I heard KDE exists Feb 19 13:36:16 i just saw that they added opengl ES support for KWin Feb 19 13:36:18 and got it to run on n900 Feb 19 13:36:25 let me see if i can find the link again Feb 19 13:36:44 http://dot.kde.org/2011/02/18/kwin-embraces-new-platforms-opengl-es-20-support Feb 19 13:36:44 here Feb 19 13:36:50 on http://konversation.kde.org/ they say they have plans for it Feb 19 13:36:57 i dont know how old that line is! Feb 19 13:36:58 -_- Feb 19 13:37:03 it would be pretty cool to have KDE running on the n900 Feb 19 13:37:18 wont it be very very slow :o ? Feb 19 13:37:38 ok, i'm about to ask a dumb question ! Feb 19 13:37:43 yeah it might be slow Feb 19 13:37:47 will take ages to startup, but then... Feb 19 13:38:18 whats the difference between something called *scratchbox* and Nokia Qt SDK for n900? Do they install seperately? Feb 19 13:38:28 I don't thing switching tasks etc is _much_ slower Feb 19 13:38:33 think* Feb 19 13:39:54 Jade no it wouldn't =) Feb 19 13:40:44 it would be cool if it wasnt Feb 19 13:40:48 kde is pretty fun Feb 19 13:41:02 kde4 is a PITA Feb 19 13:41:10 we could switch from hildon to kde entirely Feb 19 13:42:04 KDE has no dialer Feb 19 13:42:12 damn Feb 19 13:43:25 well, you can run gnome apps under KDE, but I doubt there's a hildon compatibility layer Feb 19 13:45:07 and last 3 or so days resulted in another bottom line of "according to our research a community driven compatible dialer is almost impossible to implement" Feb 19 13:45:55 leafpad: Scratchbox is a low-level, Linux-only tool you can use for application or platform development in a number of technologies. Qt SDK runs on multiple platforms and allows you to build Qt applications for Maemo Feb 19 13:46:22 DocScrutinizer, for maemo you mean. I was under the impression its entirely possible when connected via ofono on MeeGo Feb 19 13:46:33 (infact, the dialer is totally open source over there) Feb 19 13:46:36 lcuk: ack Feb 19 13:47:20 nevertheless i'm sure it is by no metrics "compatible" as in "feature complete" Feb 19 13:47:40 well I guess at some point it has to be. Feb 19 13:47:49 haha Feb 19 13:47:55 especially since as one of the reference apps - it should adhere to the reference specs Feb 19 13:48:59 which friggin reference specs? are they talking about interaction between thermal management, dialer, and 911-call emergency mode - just to name one example Feb 19 13:49:03 kde is huge monster that we don;t need Feb 19 13:49:24 Qt is fun, kde is no-go for mobile with all it's libs Feb 19 13:49:32 and fancy not needed stuff Feb 19 13:49:34 Jaffa: when apps need to be ported, or a general linux source needs to be compiled, scratchbox will be needed for it? Or can it be done in the qt sdk? Feb 19 13:49:43 DocScrutinizer, why don't you ask? http://wiki.meego.com/Project/Dialer Feb 19 13:49:54 have you tested it to see how it would handle those things Feb 19 13:50:06 leafpad: Depends on the source Feb 19 13:50:35 because I don't really care about meego anymore, until either they become more community-friendly or get muuuuuch better documentation about design rationale Feb 19 13:51:04 hmm Feb 19 13:51:30 lcuk: and NO, I WON'T test overheating my N900 and then call 911 to see if it works Feb 19 13:52:16 tbh I doubt it's correctly implemented in maemo Feb 19 13:52:22 I actually meant to actually communicate with the devs and discuss your obviously important topics with people Feb 19 13:52:47 tzzz you're the only one who thinks they are important Feb 19 13:52:47 and if the community is wrong, it is upto members of the community to fix that Feb 19 13:53:29 ? Feb 19 13:53:31 meego got designed by gods, and those don't explain themselves nor are they listening to critics Feb 19 13:55:01 Jaffa: can you give me the link to installing scratchbox? Feb 19 13:55:27 leafpad, http://maemo.org/development/ Feb 19 13:55:40 includes documentation and installers and lots of info Feb 19 13:58:39 hi Feb 19 14:02:44 Shouldn't this channel be +n? Feb 19 14:04:12 * DocScrutinizer mumbles ²¼¼&%##!!@&§©Ŋ€‘ about discussing design concepts of a stillborn OS with devels who know just 2 answers: "is it upstream?" (not even an answer!) and "you're free to send patches" Feb 19 14:05:24 NIN101: why? Feb 19 14:06:00 flooding. Feb 19 14:06:15 Not generally a problem. Feb 19 14:07:14 Guys, does anyone know how to create QPushButtons with the same style as in default Maemo Mediaplayer? I know I can do this via css by myself, trying to copy it's look and feel, but I don't want to do guesswork if there are some common methods for that. Feb 19 14:07:31 divan: Look at the Open Media Player? Feb 19 14:07:34 divan: which buttons? Feb 19 14:07:38 A reimplementation of Media Player in Qt... ;-) Feb 19 14:07:38 And I believe it's look and feel can be extracted from current Maemo theme, no? Feb 19 14:08:01 alterego, when you open Media Player on N900 you see 4 buttons. Feb 19 14:08:14 well, I can see +n making sense Feb 19 14:08:15 Jade, hmm thanks. I'll take a look now. Feb 19 14:08:35 Is it in repos? Feb 19 14:08:40 divan: Not yet Feb 19 14:09:00 MohammadAG or alterego can point you at the gitorious link Feb 19 14:09:06 (it's not in the topic at #maemo-foss) Feb 19 14:10:44 anybody still with us? Feb 19 14:10:49 ~botsnack Feb 19 14:10:50 :), DocScrutinizer Feb 19 14:11:09 NIN101: better? Feb 19 14:11:14 lol Feb 19 14:11:35 Jaffa, thanks, I've found: http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/?p=26 Feb 19 14:11:35 lol Doc. Feb 19 14:11:42 divan, i dont think so Feb 19 14:11:51 it's very recent and experimental Feb 19 14:11:52 why lol? Feb 19 14:11:53 DocScrutinizer: I don't know how you can call MeeGo stillborn, it will continue to have Intels support and Nokia haven't left it yet. Feb 19 14:11:58 i think it's only people on kde's side playing around for now Feb 19 14:12:23 alterego: I'm just quoting much better guys Feb 19 14:12:43 Sure .. Feb 19 14:12:45 Who? Feb 19 14:12:48 abill_uk? Feb 19 14:13:03 alterego: There's no major CE manufacturer who is as committed to it as Nokia were; and they'll treat their MeeGo device - at a corporate level - even more of an R&D project than the 770 ever was. Feb 19 14:13:50 alterego: Intel are committed to shifting chips. Android, Windows and MeeGo all further that aim. Hell, so does Mac OS X and - I'm sure they'd love to get it - iOS Feb 19 14:13:54 Unless there's a change in Nokia's leadership (or at least Nokia's leadership's mind), the MeeGo device from Nokia will be stillborn. http://www.mwkn.net/2011/07/front.html Feb 19 14:14:29 Don't trust what you read on the Internet ;-) Feb 19 14:14:29 It will with that attitude :P Feb 19 14:15:05 It carefully says "the MeeGo device from *Nokia*". Feb 19 14:15:50 Jade, anyway the interface is just the same and I've found the answer already. Feb 19 14:15:55 Someone else (although who, I've no idea) could make MeeGo a core part of their mobile strategy (Samsung or HP being the best options, but both are better served currently by more finished OSes) and release a MeeGo device which *wasn't* stillborn. Feb 19 14:16:05 and my rant was clearly related to dialer, which for sure is a useless piece of cruft for tablet UX Feb 19 14:18:40 just as whole meego core is a useless piece of crap for handsets, as long as development is done in a tablet/laptop centric way Feb 19 14:18:59 O_o Feb 19 14:19:08 Where are you getting this information? Feb 19 14:19:23 Who says handset is not being developed? Feb 19 14:19:33 It's being developed harder than netbook and tablet. Feb 19 14:19:39 from the few answers the gods of meego gave to me, before they told me to piss off Feb 19 14:19:39 And more openly Feb 19 14:19:44 Exactly. Feb 19 14:19:54 alterego: Although you'll ship a decent, well supported device with it? Feb 19 14:19:54 DocScrutinizer: what gods? Feb 19 14:20:28 alterego: I guess there's a chanlog in #meego and #meego-arm Feb 19 14:20:55 Okay, so you can't quote your sources, fine .. Feb 19 14:20:58 for sure there's a good one for this chan Feb 19 14:22:03 Anyway, if we're lucky, we may be able to stick MeeGo on the first WP7 phone, as apparently it was supposed to be the first MeeGo device. Feb 19 14:22:24 Bootloader depending of course. Feb 19 14:22:38 alterego: Really? The *first* MeeGo device, i.e. the OMAP36[34]0-based RM-680? Feb 19 14:23:11 * Jaffa heard mention - but not from a direct source - that the WP7 phone won't be out until the end of the year - earliest? Feb 19 14:23:27 lol Feb 19 14:23:30 Jaffa: they were aiming for May afair Feb 19 14:23:43 But this may have changed, that info is based on the annoucement last week .. Feb 19 14:23:50 alterego: URL? Feb 19 14:23:53 WP7 isn't ready Feb 19 14:24:02 quite for some reason, as wincrap hw actually is the only hw that's tailored to fit the OS, not the other way round Feb 19 14:24:09 alterego: probably wont be ready until there is a linux compiler :) Feb 19 14:24:14 Doesn't do multicore, and it lacks a lot of stuff that Nokia will get ass raped for just like the did for the N900 Feb 19 14:24:46 * Jaffa 's been really spoilt by the N900's multitasking. If the Palm Pre wasn't so weird looking, and was available cheaply in the UK, it might be an option. Feb 19 14:24:54 DocScrutinizer: I'm just going by what a Nokian told me. Feb 19 14:25:04 well, apple might apply for that title as well Feb 19 14:25:04 * Jaffa plans on sticking with his N900 for a while. Just some optimisations and some CSSU love to make it excellent. Feb 19 14:25:15 * Jaffa 'd love some low-level hacker to have a go optimising some low-level stuff Feb 19 14:25:31 Jaffa: me too, luckily enough I've got two now, one for MeeGo dev and one with Maemo that is my main handset. Feb 19 14:25:51 What I'd like to see is a new maemo build, based on MeeGo closed components with hardfp and neon optimizations. Feb 19 14:26:05 I don't think I'll ever have the time to do that though :) Feb 19 14:26:15 alterego: What's the performance like of MeeGo for N900 like now? Feb 19 14:26:42 Jaffa: the UI is pretty responsive now, app startup times are a bit rubbish. Feb 19 14:27:01 fennec takes about 10 seconds to startup Feb 19 14:27:25 Jaffa: there are some good low level hackers around :-D Feb 19 14:28:13 hardfp & neon will be with us in a week or two hopefully which should push the performance up substantially. Feb 19 14:28:27 Also, this is my experience on my device which runs off of a class 4 micro sd card Feb 19 14:29:15 interesting... based on meego closed components? like what for e.g.? Feb 19 14:29:28 alterego: Jaffa: marginals. how is standby time? that's the question you need to ask. Also what's resume time, what's the possible resume sources? Feb 19 14:29:33 pupnik: kernel (they have the latest) with their bme, and their sgx Feb 19 14:29:52 DocScrutinizer: rubbish, pm is still being integrated for 1.2 at the moment. Feb 19 14:29:54 ahh got it Feb 19 14:30:04 MUHAHAHAHA Feb 19 14:30:38 alterego: evidently you need no chanlogs, you brought it to the point by your own statement right now Feb 19 14:31:39 kernel would be nice... beyond that... everything else leave it more or less like it is... Feb 19 14:33:11 there are people already porting newest upstream kernel for N900, in a way more likely to fit N900's needs than what meego-arm does Feb 19 14:34:15 ruskie: the point is, new kernel means those components (and others) need to be updated :P Feb 19 14:34:19 as those people understood you can't always ask "is it upstream?" - they appreciate there might be drivers and kernel tweaks tailored to fit this particular hw platform Feb 19 14:34:40 You're such a whiner :P Feb 19 14:35:25 and you aren't really helpful for a general discussion with that statement Feb 19 14:36:28 DocScrutinizer: considering all you say is "is it upstream?" you're not particularly helpful either. Feb 19 14:36:37 You've been bitching about that for about 8 months now. Feb 19 14:36:46 In that time you could have got your patches accepted. Feb 19 14:36:54 BS, I'm not 'saying' that, I'm quoting it Feb 19 14:37:20 alterego: BS, I simply refuse to create patches Feb 19 14:37:34 m'hmm Feb 19 14:37:55 and yes, I object to meego devs about that notion that I should STFU if I don't Feb 19 14:38:41 my patch for sensorfw would remove all files and rename the project Feb 19 14:38:58 I just think you're wasting a lot of energy and time constantly bitching about how bad MeeGo is. Feb 19 14:39:05 so now you see what's that with gods at meego Feb 19 14:39:28 I think *you* waste more time arguing with me about it Feb 19 14:40:07 I'm younger, I've got more time to waste :P Feb 19 14:42:08 I'm immortal (as somebody found out yesterday I'm actually father of skynet) - I got all the time of the world bitching about meego and explaining why it never will get mature. It has severe congenital defects Feb 19 14:42:40 Well, I hope you eat your words :P Feb 19 14:44:13 I explained my objections in gory detail on meego several times. Answer always been "is it upstream?" and "send patches" - your fault if you're such an arrogant crowd that doesn't want to listen or discuss Feb 19 14:44:54 m'hmm, I'm listening, and I'm discussing Feb 19 14:45:16 And I would like to see your contribution. Feb 19 14:45:19 Even if it's just a bug report to get someone else to do it. Feb 19 14:45:45 I'm bored to explain same old shit esp to you over and over again Feb 19 14:46:00 m'hmm, fair enough Feb 19 14:46:34 you were online when I elaborated on particular issues several times Feb 19 14:46:45 for the rest ask stskeeps and lcuk Feb 19 15:00:00 if you need a few searchstrings to skim the chanlogs: sensorfw, lis302, irq-centric design, fso, securityfw - the latter making meego a totally unappealing domain to me, as it brings us fritz chip and DRM linux flavour, and either is implemented in such a way that it doesn't serve its purpose, or deprives users of their root permissions on *_the_system_they_have_to_use_*, or even both. Feb 19 15:02:41 * noobmonk3y blinks Feb 19 15:03:09 hmmm anyone know rtcom-messaging would be taking aapx 85-99% of my n900's cpu :( Feb 19 15:03:27 Basically , the phone/messaging part is buggered and has been for weeks, really annoying me :P Feb 19 15:04:07 The US Navy has broken the existing record for the power of a laser. Their new free-electron laser can burn through 200 feet of steel per second. Feb 19 15:04:44 That's cool. Feb 19 15:06:27 damn, my MTHELs need an upgrade Feb 19 15:08:00 RST38h: I want that on my n900 Feb 19 15:12:20 I guess we'd need a bigger battery. Feb 19 15:12:28 (securityfw) on maemo Nokia used blobs to ensure nobody is able to change their UX, on meego you bet they'll do the same by using securityfw, so either you use their oh-so-open dialer-ui or you switch to unsecured mode and neither any dialer nor mediaplayer with hw accel nor anything else will work, but you are free to replace that with your own implementations then that run in unsecure mode of OS Feb 19 15:13:12 did you really read the security framework docs? Feb 19 15:13:31 hello ! Feb 19 15:14:45 I read about general design of such security frameworks, and that's why I say it either will be crap that doesn't serve the purpose, or it will deprive users from their ability to run mediaplayer same time as gdb, or even both Feb 19 15:14:46 guys I tried to install samba and it failed (failed depency on update-inetd) so now I try to remove it and I get an error message... all further apt-get installations fail now. Here is the error: Feb 19 15:15:21 http://pastebin.com/4mc2HYQV Feb 19 15:15:24 help ! Feb 19 15:15:53 DocScrutinizer: I think you missed the point Feb 19 15:16:53 DocScrutinizer, but we wont be able to prevent Stux otherwise!!!! Feb 19 15:17:05 DocScrutinizer: and “general design” doesn't look enough, imho, but the various docs about the architecture, the thesis from reshetova, the wiki pages etc. are nice to understand it Feb 19 15:17:09 and the big mean hackers will eat your soul Feb 19 15:17:28 DocScrutinizer: but right now it doesn't seem that 1.2 will have the security fw anyway Feb 19 15:17:31 kpoman: subprocess post-removal script returned error <- is the key. This script is somewhere in I guess /var/apt/cache or sth, and it's broken and you need to delete it. My educated guess, no warranty Feb 19 15:19:20 Corsac: I understood enough about kernel and OS in general to see and wrap my head around how DRM is implemented in windows, and how it's inevitably designed in linux as well if it wants to meet the general design goal Feb 19 15:19:50 DocScrutinizer: that's where you miss the point Feb 19 15:19:56 haha Feb 19 15:20:26 so point me at it, instead of suggesting lecture of cruft specs Feb 19 15:20:37 DocScrutinizer: it's not (only) about DRM Feb 19 15:21:06 it's about making sure only signed apps run in a trused environment Feb 19 15:21:11 I agree that drms might be a large part of the intended use cases for distributor, but it's not (at all) the whole point Feb 19 15:22:10 loading e.g gdb, or any arbitrary original app will taint the trusted environment, which makes it mandatory to purge and clear all trusted processes and their memory Feb 19 15:23:13 Corsac, that's the slippery slope he's worried about, I think. Feb 19 15:23:37 How much do we trust people shipping MeeGo? Feb 19 15:24:13 ergo: compile your own kernel -> no dialer, no mediaplayer (ND,NM). Load any game you developed that needs access to /sys -> ND,NM. Try to tweak any single bit in one of the "trusted" apps -> ND,NM Feb 19 15:25:31 and OF COURSE strace, gdb, whatnot else are NOT trusted apps. In fact a trusted kernel will not even have the APIs for such tools to run Feb 19 15:25:45 ...in secure operation mode Feb 19 15:26:16 there are good examples of a securityfw though Feb 19 15:26:37 http://pastebin.com/BkKkEwBg Feb 19 15:26:41 I get more and more errors :( Feb 19 15:26:51 help ! delete samba. it fails. it blocked aptitude Feb 19 15:26:58 the webos one, which was an afterthough (original versions of the platform ran everything as root), allows you to disable it with a single command, and everything is back to being run as root again (what they call "dev mode") Feb 19 15:27:44 of course it is clear they didn't had "drm" In mind when designing that Feb 19 15:29:12 yes but again that's not a problem with the securityfw itself but rather with the people selling you the device Feb 19 15:29:18 which is a different matter Feb 19 15:29:37 er... obviously. but the lack of one usually means the people selling you the device can't use it ;) Feb 19 15:29:42 having a security subsystem which you can trust *is* a good thing, wether you lack it or not Feb 19 15:29:53 like* Feb 19 15:29:54 :/ Feb 19 15:30:48 there's a reason why the 3 laws of robotics had obedience to humans before self-preservation Feb 19 15:30:57 any ideas on how to clean that aptitude mess ? pleas ! Feb 19 15:31:07 javispedro: that's not what they are going to implement on meego securityfw. Also it's useless cruft, as any rogue app can do same you can do Feb 19 15:31:31 ok so clearly don't read anything Feb 19 15:31:34 so that's the "is implemented crappy so it doesn't serve the purpose" case Feb 19 15:31:35 DocScrutinizer: na, you do that trick of running apps in carefully crafted chroots with a newly created user Feb 19 15:31:40 the mess is here: http://pastebin.com/FAgyfNNd Feb 19 15:32:41 DocScrutinizer: and the meego crap is afaik, both things: "user oriented security" and "content provider security" Feb 19 15:32:44 javispedro: so how is THAT related to implementing signatures into bootloader? A thing they evidently needed for securityfw Feb 19 15:34:05 DocScrutinizer: well I was trying to say that the webos one is a good example of a good one. Because it protects you (_if_ you want to be protected), and doesn't require signature crap nor bootloader changes, etc. Feb 19 15:34:20 content provider security is all I talk about here. I'm not interested in meego securityfw's attempts to mimik selinux Feb 19 15:36:55 i thought selinux was good Feb 19 15:36:58 i mean, user-wise Feb 19 15:36:59 it is Feb 19 15:37:03 yay Feb 19 15:37:08 let's just... use it Feb 19 15:37:29 it's largely unrelated to meego securityfw's evilness though Feb 19 15:37:38 i know, so let's just use selinux Feb 19 15:38:40 meego-nokia won't give you a choice - their dialer and mediaplayer WILL be tagged "secure" and WILL refuse to run on a tainted system Feb 19 15:39:06 "system, are you secure?" "yeah yeah, no problem bro" Feb 19 15:39:31 well, modulo the fact there will never be such a thing like a nokia-dialer as things are now Feb 19 15:39:33 kerio: forget about doing that if they use the arm hw crap Feb 19 15:40:24 javispedro: "ok, enabling the hw encryption crap - NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP - alright, we're safe and sound!" Feb 19 15:40:33 so replace "nokia-dialer" by Feb 19 15:41:02 kerio: so when it requests to sign something and the hw refuses because "boot was not clean", what do you do? Feb 19 15:41:09 why would it? Feb 19 15:41:17 and why can't you just change that? Feb 19 15:41:23