**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jun 03 02:59:57 2011
Jun 03 03:00:24 <yigal> I mean thanks for the attempt to answer the question, but I think threads, and tags shouldn't be a crazy memory problem nor fullscreen
Jun 03 03:00:34 <yigal> I mean Mutt does that so?
Jun 03 03:01:14 <yigal> I guess a desire to make it compatible with Outlook or something?
Jun 03 03:02:32 <yigal> it's lame, makes me laugh at the idea of "this is a computer" not a phone, phh
Jun 03 03:03:45 <yigal> if it was a computer it would have been given a 4"+ screen and a decent email client
Jun 03 03:03:52 <yigal> ok, stop Nokia bashing
Jun 03 03:07:08 <yigal> Nokia how bright you were when you brought out the n8x0
Jun 03 03:16:40 <yigal> my bad
Jun 03 03:18:44 <dangergrrl> nokia made my n900 and i love that
Jun 03 03:18:54 <dangergrrl> but they bought into wp7 and i hate that
Jun 03 03:20:16 <dangergrrl> how hard is it to port a python app to n900 if you know no python, just C, C++, lisps, used to know perl, lex/yacc, most any assembly, etc?
Jun 03 03:22:35 <dangergrrl> i want to be able to use a pc at a public library to get individual kindle books from my amazon library and de drm it so i can read on n900
Jun 03 03:22:52 <dangergrrl> was thinking calibre might be nice on the n900
Jun 03 03:24:14 <dangergrrl> hi from a beer drinking biker woman in texas, yigal who's ipaddy is in l a
Jun 03 03:24:18 <dangergrrl> :)
Jun 03 03:32:07 <yigal> I'm so confused dangergrrl
Jun 03 03:32:21 <yigal> you want to port a python app. when you don't know python
Jun 03 03:32:26 <yigal> what type of app.?
Jun 03 03:32:31 <dangergrrl> i know unix
Jun 03 03:32:37 <yigal> I feel it
Jun 03 03:32:43 <yigal> I do too :D
Jun 03 03:32:43 <dangergrrl> ebook reader/toolkit
Jun 03 03:33:05 <yigal> not sure
Jun 03 03:33:23 <dangergrrl> learned unix when the internet was still arpanet
Jun 03 03:33:25 <yigal> not sure how I should feel about it :D
Jun 03 03:33:41 <yigal> I feel you would be dropping something like that
Jun 03 03:34:01 <yigal> I learned *nix 7 years ago
Jun 03 03:34:11 <yigal> but I loved it as soon as I was introduced
Jun 03 03:34:13 <yigal> :D
Jun 03 03:35:04 <yigal> grep sed chown sed it's d bomb
Jun 03 03:36:06 <dangergrrl> bash is sweet for interactive programming
Jun 03 03:36:32 <yigal> zsh is my term, I can't understand why it wasn't adopted by more
Jun 03 03:37:22 <dangergrrl> i ♥ gnu
Jun 03 03:37:34 <dangergrrl> <3 for the unicode impaired
Jun 03 03:37:41 <yigal> :D
Jun 03 03:37:56 <yigal> man I'm too drunk to make simple happy faces, this is great
Jun 03 03:38:19 <dangergrrl> actually on recent X11 ♥ is compose < 3
Jun 03 03:38:30 <yigal> hmm
Jun 03 03:38:48 <yigal> X11 I switch between xmonad and compiz
Jun 03 03:39:03 <dangergrrl> you have to turn on a compose key in xkb or keyboard prefs
Jun 03 03:39:04 <yigal> both are sweet in their own way
Jun 03 03:39:10 <dangergrrl> i use compiz
Jun 03 03:39:12 <yigal> sweet
Jun 03 03:39:15 <dangergrrl> not tried the other
Jun 03 03:39:40 <yigal> it's very good at tyling
Jun 03 03:39:54 <yigal> tiling
Jun 03 03:40:07 <dangergrrl> no gpu use?
Jun 03 03:40:21 <yigal> very little
Jun 03 03:42:27 <dangergrrl> compiz makes my machine slower because it uses GPU memory and i am using a motherboard GPU with shared mem
Jun 03 03:42:47 <yigal> me too intel 945
Jun 03 03:43:01 <yigal> but the bling is sometimes useful
Jun 03 03:44:07 <yigal> the scale function, basically the task switcher, almost n900s without the ability to close apps through it, that's what I find most useful
Jun 03 03:44:47 <dangergrrl> i use 32 bit ubuntu to run maemo sdk
Jun 03 03:45:05 <dangergrrl> i put it on a face of the cube by itself
Jun 03 03:45:24 <dangergrrl> compize lets you face switch when you have full screen apps
Jun 03 03:45:41 <yigal> yes, that's pretty good
Jun 03 03:46:28 <yigal> dangergrrl: so compiz by itself that's what you use?
Jun 03 03:46:48 <yigal> I think it's a good WM
Jun 03 03:46:53 <dangergrrl> on sabayon which i think is gnome 2
Jun 03 03:46:58 <dangergrrl> by default
Jun 03 03:47:14 <yigal> oh
Jun 03 03:47:17 <dangergrrl> i like gentoo and have crappy hardware
Jun 03 03:47:23 <dangergrrl> sabayon is binary gentoo
Jun 03 03:47:30 <yigal> ya, I like archlinux
Jun 03 03:47:38 <yigal> similar idea
Jun 03 03:52:05 <yigal> man I've done quite well in poker today
Jun 03 03:52:16 <yigal> about $10
Jun 03 03:52:59 <dangergrrl> cool
Jun 03 03:53:34 <yigal> I've made about $1000 over a year
Jun 03 03:53:58 <yigal> should make myself big league go to Vegas :D
Jun 03 03:54:26 <yigal> probably lose every penny in an hour
Jun 03 03:54:28 <yigal> lol
Jun 03 03:55:50 <dangergrrl> maybe you should start a software company
Jun 03 03:56:06 <dangergrrl> bill gates quit harvard because he made too much playing poker
Jun 03 03:57:06 <yigal> I have a degree in physics, hasn't helped me too much financially
Jun 03 03:58:09 <yigal> a good socially responsible exceptionally reasonable software company I'd like that
Jun 03 03:58:23 <yigal> perhaps 1 day I'll be lucky enough
Jun 03 04:06:37 <yigal> what about you dangergrrl what do you do to feed and clother yourself?
Jun 03 04:08:06 <dangergrrl> i collect a disability check
Jun 03 04:08:35 <yigal> :)
Jun 03 04:09:07 <yigal> I seriously don't think anyone should have to work in this day and age unless they want to
Jun 03 04:09:23 <dangergrrl> it is a long story
Jun 03 04:09:40 <dangergrrl> someone tried to murder me i got a head injury
Jun 03 04:10:03 <yigal> dude that sucks hardcore
Jun 03 04:13:38 <SpeedEvil> Some people really don't like open-source.
Jun 03 04:13:58 <yigal> oh shit, lol
Jun 03 04:14:07 <dangergrrl> well, i get to ride my motorcycle around america and not work
Jun 03 04:14:21 <SpeedEvil> :/
Jun 03 04:14:34 <dangergrrl> i was actually having a debate with someone over AGPL earlier
Jun 03 04:14:55 <SpeedEvil> AGPL?
Jun 03 04:15:00 <SpeedEvil> I know L and ""
Jun 03 04:15:33 <dangergrrl> it't the new gnu public license for cloud apps
Jun 03 04:15:38 <SpeedEvil> ah
Jun 03 04:15:56 <dangergrrl> if you use the code on a public web werver you must offer source code
Jun 03 04:15:58 <SpeedEvil> the 'distribution' clause is messy for that kind of stuff, yes.
Jun 03 04:16:18 <SpeedEvil> Oh - that's a seperate issue.
Jun 03 04:16:21 <SpeedEvil> then
Jun 03 04:17:02 <dangergrrl> well you aren't distributing the code so gpl does not apply to custom versions
Jun 03 04:17:19 <dangergrrl> you can customize and never release under gpl
Jun 03 04:17:27 <dangergrrl> but you are not the end user
Jun 03 04:18:57 <SpeedEvil> I was assuming it was clarifying the uissue about when distribution occurs on rented computers, or customers computers that you install it on.
Jun 03 04:19:09 <SpeedEvil> And stuff like that.
Jun 03 04:20:08 <yigal> darn got 2nd on that poker match too drunk
Jun 03 04:23:53 <dangergrrl> well my friend wrote the code for duuit.com
Jun 03 04:24:02 <dangergrrl> which is a social networking site
Jun 03 04:24:18 <dangergrrl> it is gpl2
Jun 03 04:24:30 <yigal> sounds good
Jun 03 04:24:36 <dangergrrl> what if facebook decided his code was better than theirs
Jun 03 04:24:50 <yigal> i h8t fbook
Jun 03 04:24:58 <dangergrrl> and wrote whatever they have and he doesn't and based their website on it?
Jun 03 04:25:06 <dangergrrl> and refused to share the code
Jun 03 04:25:25 <dangergrrl> they didn't give the binary away
Jun 03 04:25:33 <dangergrrl> so they do not have to share changes
Jun 03 04:26:02 <yigal> I'm already angry at fbook
Jun 03 04:27:01 <dangergrrl> well, check out duuit.com :)
Jun 03 04:27:15 <dangergrrl> and you can join #duuit to talk to the dev
Jun 03 04:27:28 <dangergrrl> sorry for shameless promotion of my friend
Jun 03 04:28:06 <yigal> ty that's how good stuff should be spread, through word of mouth or at least through typing on irc
Jun 03 04:30:37 <dangergrrl> if it asks for an invitation code i will get one
Jun 03 04:30:58 <dangergrrl> i don't think it does but it says it is an invited trial
Jun 03 04:31:07 <dangergrrl> we have an interesting music community
Jun 03 04:31:47 <yigal> sounds good I'm too drunk to do anything about it tonight but tomorrow I'll probably ask, if I need to
Jun 03 04:31:49 <yigal> :)
Jun 03 04:32:08 <dangergrrl> well i may be conscious
Jun 03 04:32:40 <dangergrrl> i bought the amount of alcohol i can handle and the store is far and i do not ride a motorcycle after drinking
Jun 03 04:32:41 <yigal> good, no pressure :)
Jun 03 04:33:21 <dangergrrl> but i am usually here and the n900 would not be worth anything without DocScrutinizer and MohammadAG
Jun 03 04:33:36 <yigal> nice
Jun 03 04:33:38 <dangergrrl> sorry for dinging guys
Jun 03 04:33:49 <dangergrrl> but they are awesome
Jun 03 04:38:05 <yigal> night awesome open source people
Jun 03 04:38:33 <dangergrrl> lol
Jun 03 05:17:38 <GeneralAntilles> So, Windows 8 on ARM.
Jun 03 05:17:46 <GeneralAntilles> How much do you think that's going to jumpstart the CPU race?
Jun 03 05:19:47 <robbiethe1st> Unless it can run legacy apps through a VM, I don't think it really will
Jun 03 05:21:07 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, that's always been the big issue.
Jun 03 05:21:32 <GeneralAntilles> But, substituting crufty corporate environments where that's usually actually an issue.
Jun 03 05:23:09 <robbiethe1st> Because it'll essentially be the same as Android: a mobile OS  with apps designed for the platform.... and not compatible with x86 legacy and other "full" apps
Jun 03 05:24:48 <dangergrrl> windows 8 is meh
Jun 03 05:24:55 <dangergrrl> we can do better
Jun 03 05:25:00 <dangergrrl> with no sweat
Jun 03 05:34:26 <robbiethe1st> Well, I'd argue that if it was able to run old Windows programs "natively" via a seamless VM, it'd be worth it on tablets. But if not, no reason to pay the MS tax.
Jun 03 06:55:35 <Jaffa> Morning, all
Jun 03 07:04:04 <arvut> morning
Jun 03 07:38:04 <MohammadAG> morning
Jun 03 07:38:31 <hiemanshu> Morning MohammadAG
Jun 03 08:17:30 <ruskie> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/03/open_sourcing_skype/
Jun 03 09:02:42 <Evanescence> so quient
Jun 03 09:46:39 <mr_jrt> Morning!
Jun 03 09:55:59 <crashanddie> Libra: "Romance is in the air, so plan something special with your partner. Single Librans - has your love life been going nowhere? Uranus is about to shake up your relationship zone so expect the unexpected!"
Jun 03 09:56:37 <shark_eye> Hi alli am facing few problems with setting up for maemo sdk .can any1 help me with that  ??
Jun 03 10:57:01 <myuu> anyone use ff4 on n900?
Jun 03 11:20:26 <wam> yeah
Jun 03 12:04:22 <edheldil> is it possible to cancel the mass storage usb mode on n900 without pulling out the cable?
Jun 03 12:04:40 <edheldil> (or reboot)
Jun 03 12:07:31 <robbiethe1st> Not that I know of
Jun 03 12:07:54 <nid0> theres a shell script that should do it
Jun 03 12:08:23 <nid0> surely just replugging the cable's easier though
Jun 03 12:09:27 <NIN101> osso-usb-mass-storage-disable.sh
Jun 03 12:09:39 <nid0> yer, that one ^
Jun 03 12:09:39 <NIN101> takes one argument
Jun 03 12:10:03 <NIN101> the partition which is on mass storage mode...
Jun 03 12:16:04 <edheldil> thanks
Jun 03 12:25:49 <AStorm> hello there, been a long time
Jun 03 12:33:33 <myuu> unmount?
Jun 03 12:33:38 <myuu> hi
Jun 03 13:05:14 <DocScrutinizer> old but funny: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/29/skype_explains_outage/  coremelt in the virtual world. You know skype is BAD(TM), didn't you?
Jun 03 13:10:43 <flux> didn't they have a more recent outage as well? did they explain that?
Jun 03 13:16:58 <divan> How to keep the backlight on in Qt? I've read about a few methods - using QSystemScreensaver or emiting some DBus signal every 30 seconds.. but what is most commonly used?
Jun 03 13:18:05 <khertan> Hello !
Jun 03 13:29:47 <cehteh> divan: for the n900 certainly the dbus method .. i even wonder if its necessary to do that every 30 secs (tough prolly thats failsafe)
Jun 03 13:30:01 <SpeedEvil> Otherwise the screen blanks
Jun 03 13:30:06 <SpeedEvil> If the user does not touch
Jun 03 13:31:04 <DocScrutinizer> divan: the "official" method is by sending 'keep alive' dbus mgs, yu should do this every 10s rather than every 30s, as users might have blanktimes <30s
Jun 03 13:31:37 <divan> thanks for replies
Jun 03 13:31:39 <divan> DocScrutinizer, is blanktime configurable?
Jun 03 13:31:48 <DocScrutinizer> there's however another inofficial method that changes blanktime setting to infinite, it's not an officially supported API
Jun 03 13:32:24 <divan> the 'every N seconds' method looks more reliable
Jun 03 13:32:50 <DocScrutinizer> AFAIK simple brightness applet is using this inofficial method to keep screen "always on"
Jun 03 13:33:38 <DocScrutinizer> wait a moment, I might find a link for you
Jun 03 13:35:22 <divan> DocScrutinizer, I know brightness applet. I'll take a look, thanks )
Jun 03 13:35:43 <DocScrutinizer> yw
Jun 03 13:38:06 * DocScrutinizer makes virtual post-it note to add the fsckdup aka missing backlight stay-on option to the long list why mce is bad and needs to go FOSS so such things could get fixed
Jun 03 13:39:30 <edheldil> Fuelpad's import feature is really bad :(
Jun 03 13:42:16 * DocScrutinizer sighs and mumbles ``fsoraw -r display AppThatShouldntDimm''
Jun 03 13:43:26 <DocScrutinizer> did I mention maemo is really not exactly top notch when it comes to a consistent comprehensive middleware layer
Jun 03 13:45:37 <DocScrutinizer> ofono... meh
Jun 03 13:46:20 <DocScrutinizer> ofono guys really thought fso is "just a wrapper around the modem to do AT" - LOL
Jun 03 13:47:02 <DocScrutinizer> take your NIH syndrome and feel happy with it!
Jun 03 13:48:46 <DocScrutinizer> darn, meego could have been a really nice OS if only they adopted FSO
Jun 03 13:49:07 <DocScrutinizer> lo javispedro
Jun 03 13:49:16 <javispedro> hello
Jun 03 13:50:44 <khertan> DocScrutinizer: i prefer nih syndrom than the nokia IHBLRIA
Jun 03 13:51:10 <DocScrutinizer> ~wtf IHBLRIA
Jun 03 13:51:11 <infobot> Gee...  I don't know what IHBLRIA means...
Jun 03 13:51:39 <DocScrutinizer> ~IHBLRIA
Jun 03 13:51:43 <khertan> "Invented Here, But Let's Reinvent It Anyway"
Jun 03 13:51:53 <DocScrutinizer> heh
Jun 03 13:52:56 <DocScrutinizer> ~IHBLRIA is "Invented Here, But Let's Reinvent It Anyway"
Jun 03 13:52:56 <infobot> DocScrutinizer: okay
Jun 03 13:53:41 <DocScrutinizer> ~IHBLRIA is also a notion found at Nokia sometimes
Jun 03 13:53:41 <infobot> DocScrutinizer: okay
Jun 03 13:55:18 <DocScrutinizer> google fsoraw if you want to find a few nice pointers
Jun 03 13:55:18 * javispedro is starting to like python
Jun 03 13:55:56 <javispedro> and me liking an interpreted language is a dangerous thing...
Jun 03 13:56:04 <rm_work> <3 python
Jun 03 13:56:14 <rm_work> though only the 2.x series
Jun 03 13:56:17 <rm_work> 3.x can suck it
Jun 03 13:58:30 <hiemanshu> <3 python :D
Jun 03 14:02:32 <khertan> javispedro: it s too late ... you will not be able to do other language
Jun 03 14:02:39 <khertan> rm_work: ?
Jun 03 14:02:43 <khertan> rm_work: arguments ?
Jun 03 14:03:03 <rm_work> arguments?
Jun 03 14:03:17 <rm_work> oh, as to why python 3.x is annoying to use?
Jun 03 14:03:27 <khertan> you said python 3 sucks ... ? i ask why ?
Jun 03 14:03:28 <khertan> :)
Jun 03 14:06:20 <rm_work> well, in common use, one of the best things about python 2.x was how magically it did dynamic typing
Jun 03 14:06:34 <rm_work> they've completely ruined that in python 3
Jun 03 14:06:47 <rm_work> even stupidly simple things like "print 1" throw a type error
Jun 03 14:07:39 <rm_work> in what universe do I want to have to type "print str(1)"?! if i wanted to do that I wouldn't be using python
Jun 03 14:07:58 <rm_work> this manifests itself in a myriad of places <_<
Jun 03 14:09:41 <rm_work> i guess python2 isn't technically weakly typed
Jun 03 14:10:16 <rm_work> but it works in such a way that sometimes it seems like it is (which gave us the best of both worlds)
Jun 03 14:10:46 <rm_work> just some really intelligent auto type conversion in specific places
Jun 03 14:11:06 <javispedro> technically it is weakly typed
Jun 03 14:11:38 <javispedro> the fact that you are getting _runtime_ typeerrors kinda proves it.
Jun 03 14:11:48 <rm_work> no
Jun 03 14:12:38 <javispedro> no what?
Jun 03 14:13:06 <rm_work> no, it is not weakly typed, and no, getting runtime type errors does not prove it (i was talking about getting those in python3.x anyway, not 2.x)
Jun 03 14:13:27 <rm_work> http://wiki.python.org/moin/Why%20is%20Python%20a%20dynamic%20language%20and%20also%20a%20strongly%20typed%20language
Jun 03 14:14:06 <nusse> is there a solution for this bug? https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9353#c18
Jun 03 14:14:07 <povbot> Bug 9353: Writing large files to /home/user/MyDocs can take a very very long time
Jun 03 14:14:16 <nusse> use the filemanager does not work when using scp
Jun 03 14:14:25 <DocScrutinizer> getting runtime errors proves exactly nuttin for an interpreted code ;-D
Jun 03 14:14:34 <rm_work> ^^^ this
Jun 03 14:14:42 <rm_work> there are no compile errors, EVERYTHING is runtime :P
Jun 03 14:16:48 <khertan> rm_work: yep it 's now print(1)
Jun 03 14:16:49 <khertan> ...
Jun 03 14:17:25 <javispedro> rm_work: so, who the hell wrote that page?
Jun 03 14:17:28 <khertan> rm_work: and there is no difference about compile error or not between 2.0 and 3
Jun 03 14:17:38 <javispedro> it says "why is python a strongly typed language"
Jun 03 14:17:41 <rm_work> khertan: i never said there was
Jun 03 14:17:51 <rm_work> javispedro: it's a FAQ
Jun 03 14:17:51 <khertan> rm_work: ah sorry didn't understand :)
Jun 03 14:17:53 <javispedro> then it proceeds to say "strong typed = statically typed + strongly typed"
Jun 03 14:18:04 <rm_work> javispedro: it says that's common usage
Jun 03 14:18:20 <javispedro> defining statically typed as "can tell which type a variable refers to, for example through type inference, without executing the program"
Jun 03 14:18:31 <javispedro> but on python, noone can tell the type of variable without executing the program!
Jun 03 14:19:31 <DocScrutinizer> sound odd
Jun 03 14:19:49 <rm_work> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_typing#Variation_across_programming_languages
Jun 03 14:19:53 <javispedro> and if we keep to their definition of strong typing,
Jun 03 14:20:04 <edheldil> rm_work:  is not the problem that in P3, print is a function?
Jun 03 14:20:06 <javispedro> then why I can use a real as an int?
Jun 03 14:20:09 <rm_work> javispedro: see bullet 2
Jun 03 14:20:15 <javispedro> int as a real?
Jun 03 14:20:18 <edheldil> i.e. use print(1)
Jun 03 14:20:19 <javispedro> *
Jun 03 14:20:22 <rm_work> edheldil: possibly :/
Jun 03 14:21:00 <rm_work> "The object-oriented programming languages Smalltalk, Ruby, Python, and Self are all "strongly typed" in the sense that typing errors are prevented at runtime and they do little implicit type conversion, but these languages make no use of static type checking: the compiler does not check or enforce type constraint rules. The term duck typing is now used to describe the dynamic typing paradigm used by the languages in this group."
Jun 03 14:22:22 <javispedro> duck typing does not have anything to do with static or dynamic according to that same wikipedia page
Jun 03 14:22:42 <javispedro> it says something about "if a bird walks like a duck and swims like aduck then it is a duck"
Jun 03 14:22:48 <DocScrutinizer> (strong types) see: everything is an object, so Ocomplex is an object, but not evry object is compatible to Ocomplex
Jun 03 14:22:50 <javispedro> something you could check statically or dinamically, I couldn't care less.
Jun 03 14:22:59 <edheldil> khertan:  ah, sorry, you said it already
Jun 03 14:23:06 * DocScrutinizer wnders if a single person on this earth will get his point
Jun 03 14:23:40 * javispedro would call that structural typing, but that's another story..
Jun 03 14:23:51 <javispedro> (not DocScrutinizer's point, but the point about the duck)
Jun 03 14:24:32 <DocScrutinizer> I guess what I want to say is: it's all about your paradigms
Jun 03 14:25:12 <DocScrutinizer> types don't have to be disjunct by definition
Jun 03 14:25:59 <rm_work> http://diveintopython.org/getting_to_know_python/declaring_functions.html  <--- 2.2.1
Jun 03 14:26:24 <DocScrutinizer> it's about the paradigms of the particular language if >print( int 1)< is valid or not
Jun 03 14:26:35 <rm_work> actually it is now
Jun 03 14:26:44 <rm_work> i may have to revisit
Jun 03 14:26:58 <rm_work> just tried it again in a newer release
Jun 03 14:27:15 <javispedro> rm_work: I get your point. But Python has automatic conversions. (int -> real)
Jun 03 14:27:22 <javispedro> so it's not strong by that definition either.
Jun 03 14:29:31 <DocScrutinizer> obviously low level lang - like assembler, forth, c(?) - have a strong typing. Higher level lang tend to handle types in a more nifty way
Jun 03 14:31:06 <javispedro> heh
Jun 03 14:32:02 <rm_work> hrm, looks like i can't say 3.x sucks anymore, have to limit that to 3.0. seems that 3.1 fixed a few of my main gripes
Jun 03 14:32:09 <javispedro> heh
Jun 03 14:32:20 <javispedro> I've been reading about it and I prefer the old print syntax
Jun 03 14:32:29 <javispedro> specially to print to files.
Jun 03 14:32:39 <DocScrutinizer> (musing about forth - it's actually a smartass inetractive macro assembler operating on a virtual CPU)
Jun 03 14:33:02 <rm_work> then again I really liked ML
Jun 03 14:33:15 <rm_work> which has stupidly strong typing :P
Jun 03 14:34:49 <DocScrutinizer> (while c is even more smartass, not interactive, and generating code for arbitrary real machines ;-P )
Jun 03 14:35:29 <DocScrutinizer> still I think of c to be the most complex assembler existing
Jun 03 14:35:42 <javispedro> and portable :D
Jun 03 14:35:48 <DocScrutinizer> indeed
Jun 03 14:35:55 <DocScrutinizer> mostly ;-)
Jun 03 14:38:43 <khertan> rm_work: and 3.2 surely fix the rest
Jun 03 14:38:43 <khertan> :)
Jun 03 14:39:07 <javispedro> wtf, they removed reduce in python 3.0
Jun 03 14:39:23 <DocScrutinizer> but my point about c is that you are on your way to failure when you ever forget about c's nature of being an assembler rather than a compiler
Jun 03 14:39:50 <khertan> Guido van Rossum comments on the elimination of map(), filter(), reduce() and lambda from Python 3000:
Jun 03 14:39:50 <khertan>     About 12 years ago, Python aquired lambda, reduce(), filter() and map(), courtesy of (I believe) a Lisp hacker who missed them and submitted working patches. But, despite of the PR value, I think these features should be cut from Python 3000.
Jun 03 14:40:38 <javispedro> I see that he added any/all builtins
Jun 03 14:40:43 <javispedro> kinda agree with that, ok.
Jun 03 14:43:37 <DocScrutinizer> (way to failure) a common problem to coders learning on a high level languge though is that they forget they aren't operating in an entirely virtual abstract mathematical universe, and it takes TIME and RESOURCES to instatiate an object for each ascii character of the text in your editor
Jun 03 14:45:11 <DocScrutinizer> that's why I think you should start learning programming with a nice assembler
Jun 03 14:45:22 <DocScrutinizer> rather than lisp
Jun 03 14:45:43 <DocScrutinizer> or C++
Jun 03 14:46:01 * javispedro disagrees
Jun 03 14:46:25 <javispedro> because before programming, you need algorithms.
Jun 03 14:46:31 <DocScrutinizer> indeed
Jun 03 14:47:01 <javispedro> good luck doing any of them in asm before truly mastering asm itself.
Jun 03 14:47:07 <DocScrutinizer> though those are vastly overrated in their importance for everyday coding duty
Jun 03 14:47:52 <DocScrutinizer> algorithms to code a simple "throw the dice" proggy are like null
Jun 03 14:48:10 <DocScrutinizer> given you can use /dev/random
Jun 03 14:48:12 <DocScrutinizer> ;-P
Jun 03 14:49:01 <DocScrutinizer> algorithms of "game of life" are utterly simple
Jun 03 14:49:17 <javispedro> and I'm thinking utterly simple stuff
Jun 03 14:49:25 <DocScrutinizer> even madelbrodt is not really heavy algo shuffling
Jun 03 14:49:58 <cehteh> DocScrutinizer: there are some very clever and nontrivial optimizations for game of life simulations
Jun 03 14:49:59 <DocScrutinizer> of course you shoud've finished your math classes
Jun 03 14:50:30 <DocScrutinizer> cehteh: good luck for expressing these as algorithms X-D
Jun 03 14:50:52 <cehteh> you looked at golly?
Jun 03 14:50:59 <DocScrutinizer> nope?
Jun 03 14:51:17 <cehteh> install that and take a look (on desktop machine)
Jun 03 14:51:40 <cehteh> i dont know how this algos work but they do exponential speed up
Jun 03 14:52:37 <cehteh> so you can run billions of generations of really huge maps (infinite bound) in a few seconds/minutes
Jun 03 14:52:46 <cehteh> very complex things
Jun 03 14:53:59 <DocScrutinizer> you could e.g. find macro pattern and how they evolve - if you find a recursion, you're done with optimizing this pattern :-)
Jun 03 14:54:53 <cehteh> yes basically that
Jun 03 14:55:03 <cehteh> but its an algorithm to find such patterns too
Jun 03 14:55:21 <DocScrutinizer> for instance a glider is very easy to process, once recognized to be one, as long as it doesn't collide
Jun 03 14:55:25 <cehteh> and there are hillariously huge constructs in life done by its community
Jun 03 14:56:45 <cehteh> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Golly.png
Jun 03 14:57:08 * DocScrutinizer muses about exploiting gzip's dictionary building algos for g-o-l pattern detection
Jun 03 14:57:36 <cehteh> The 6,366,548,773,467,669,985,195,496,000th (6 octillionth) generation
Jun 03 14:57:59 <cehteh> .. you'll never reach that with a linear simulator :)
Jun 03 14:58:33 <cehteh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashlife
Jun 03 15:05:42 <kerio> rm_work: wtf are you smoking
Jun 03 15:05:48 <rm_work> ?
Jun 03 15:06:00 <kerio> print <expr> is a syntax error in py3
Jun 03 15:06:05 <kerio> print is a function
Jun 03 15:06:06 <rm_work> yeah sorry
Jun 03 15:06:10 <rm_work> meant print(1)
Jun 03 15:06:14 <kerio> it works
Jun 03 15:06:16 <rm_work> but it did used to throw a type error
Jun 03 15:06:18 <rm_work> it works now
Jun 03 15:06:19 <kerio> why wouldn't it
Jun 03 15:06:20 <rm_work> in 3.1
Jun 03 15:06:26 <rm_work> that was my point :P
Jun 03 15:06:28 <kerio> you're lying, but ok
Jun 03 15:07:01 <rm_work> when python 3.0 first came out it would say you had to explicitly convert it to a string
Jun 03 15:07:15 <rm_work> so i promptly uninstalled it
Jun 03 15:07:39 <AStorm> and that was so bad, yes?
Jun 03 15:07:41 <kerio> print_function in py2.6 doesn't do that
Jun 03 15:07:45 <AStorm> I mean, print(str(...)) too hard?
Jun 03 15:07:57 <AStorm> thattoo
Jun 03 15:07:58 <kerio> so i really doubt you're telling the truth
Jun 03 15:08:01 <rm_work> it's the simplest form of illustration
Jun 03 15:08:07 <kerio> AStorm: not the point here
Jun 03 15:08:07 <AStorm> original print doesn't convert to string
Jun 03 15:08:13 <rm_work> no one would ever actually type print(1) in their program anyway
Jun 03 15:08:14 <AStorm> the one in 2.7.x
Jun 03 15:08:16 <kerio> AStorm: original print... does
Jun 03 15:08:25 <kerio> it calls str() on its arguments
Jun 03 15:08:30 <AStorm> hmmph
Jun 03 15:08:36 <AStorm> I'll check to be extrasure
Jun 03 15:08:43 <kerio> and it would be hard
Jun 03 15:08:57 <AStorm> yes, it does
Jun 03 15:09:01 <kerio> because print takes arbitrary objects, coercing them to strings
Jun 03 15:09:13 <AStorm> this or calling str()
Jun 03 15:09:29 <kerio> cehteh: hashlife is incredible
Jun 03 15:09:57 <kerio> anyway, rm_work, py3k is a much, much better language than python 2
Jun 03 15:10:46 <kerio> sadly, it's still not exactly usable because no twisted and no numpy
Jun 03 15:14:19 <rm_work> also no django :/ which i use quite a bit
Jun 03 16:00:34 <javispedro> oh, that abill_uk's poll thread is now even funnier.
Jun 03 16:15:38 <Jaffa> javispedro: Sufficiently funny for me to open TMO?
Jun 03 16:15:52 <javispedro> since when you last looked at it?
Jun 03 16:16:59 <javispedro> if it's around three or four days, well, as a spoiler, they for a few pages tried to find licensing "errors" on nokia's part to sue the source code out of them.
Jun 03 16:17:52 <javispedro> my grammar is sadly becoming funnier every day.
Jun 03 16:23:13 <style> Has anyone been able to connect canon camera to n900 (usb hostmode)
Jun 03 16:44:34 <DocScrutinizer> IDIOTS, IDIOTS AND MORONS
Jun 03 16:45:35 <DocScrutinizer> s/since when/how  long since/ ?
Jun 03 16:46:52 <DocScrutinizer> and no, I'm not going to look at tmo again for that freakin thread
Jun 03 16:47:52 <DocScrutinizer> I for a purpose didn't answer when that guy suggested to me "how about checking for GPL violations instead?"
Jun 03 16:48:16 <DocScrutinizer> insane
Jun 03 16:48:36 <Jaffa> DocScrutinizer: javispedro: Good grief, they're nots.
Jun 03 16:50:11 <Jaffa> s/nots/nuts/
Jun 03 16:50:11 <infobot> Jaffa meant: DocScrutinizer: javispedro: Good grief, they're nuts.
Jun 03 16:50:19 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/spontaneousArt_madBatShit_20110602_001.mp4  one-time-wonder N900 gfx core going psycho. Alas no clue how to reproduce ;-P
Jun 03 16:50:34 <javispedro> 250 MiB file??
Jun 03 16:50:43 <DocScrutinizer> yo :-/
Jun 03 16:50:49 <javispedro> huh
Jun 03 16:51:00 <DocScrutinizer> no video editing on N900, see?
Jun 03 16:51:01 <javispedro> what is in there, the new harry potter movie? =)
Jun 03 16:51:30 <DocScrutinizer> well, harry potter might be involved, having cursed the N900 ;-)
Jun 03 16:51:33 <javispedro> I've seen many weird things with the sgx.
Jun 03 16:51:54 <DocScrutinizer> not a funny friggin nice one like this though, I guess
Jun 03 16:52:41 <DocScrutinizer> I honestly thought for a short while that has to be some gfx art producing prog somebody smuggled onto my N900
Jun 03 16:53:21 <javispedro> abill_uk did that via his mastery of telekinesis and televectordrawing.
Jun 03 16:53:37 <DocScrutinizer> I simply unlocked a pretty normal maemo hildon screen, and that's been what I got
Jun 03 16:53:53 <javispedro> is it SFW?
Jun 03 16:53:57 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: I'm afraid that's true :-D
Jun 03 16:54:30 <javispedro> oh
Jun 03 16:54:31 <javispedro> :(
Jun 03 16:54:34 <javispedro> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11794
Jun 03 16:54:35 <povbot> Bug 11794: Open Fremantle's MCE
Jun 03 16:54:43 <DocScrutinizer> eh?
Jun 03 16:54:46 <javispedro> qgil: "There are no plans to open the Fremantle version."
Jun 03 16:55:04 <DocScrutinizer> you honestly expected *anything* else?
Jun 03 16:55:16 <javispedro> on the bright side, this only took half a year!
Jun 03 16:55:25 <javispedro> ;P
Jun 03 16:55:37 <DocScrutinizer> Nokia's seriously going "F*CK YOU maemo"
Jun 03 16:57:13 <DocScrutinizer> maybe we could convince somebody@nokia to provide the unstripped binaries of quite some blobs ?
Jun 03 16:57:46 <DocScrutinizer> can't be a big thing in any respect
Jun 03 16:57:55 <DocScrutinizer> except codesize :-P
Jun 03 16:59:24 <javispedro> the fremantle codebase is probably already lost
Jun 03 16:59:29 <DocScrutinizer> I bet there's no official policy about "you must not publish unstripped binaries" or even "lawyers have to check binaries with symbols prior to disclosure/publishing"
Jun 03 17:00:02 <javispedro> nokia has provided unstripped binaries in the past
Jun 03 17:00:05 <javispedro> hm
Jun 03 17:00:10 <DocScrutinizer> indeed
Jun 03 17:00:11 <javispedro> can't really remember an example...
Jun 03 17:00:17 <DocScrutinizer> ?
Jun 03 17:00:35 <DocScrutinizer> some bored devel can do now :-)
Jun 03 17:05:43 <javispedro> oh
Jun 03 17:05:51 <javispedro> the stuff in the video does not seem sgx
Jun 03 17:06:12 <DocScrutinizer> tell me what you think it is :-)
Jun 03 17:06:44 <javispedro> dunno, unless you have a video with static and music? ;P
Jun 03 17:06:56 <DocScrutinizer> definitely not
Jun 03 17:07:36 <javispedro> it is clearly a message from god.
Jun 03 17:07:36 <DocScrutinizer> funny part is I never before heard that music either, but it might be somewhere in the 10GB of MP3 hanging around there
Jun 03 17:08:00 <javispedro> it is sgx after all
Jun 03 17:08:14 <javispedro> weird thing is that I don't know why there was static on video... video should be overlayed..
Jun 03 17:08:50 <javispedro> aah, it is not a video, it's always normal ui
Jun 03 17:09:01 <DocScrutinizer> some of the static is from recording, not actually from the recorded DUT
Jun 03 17:09:21 <javispedro> I see
Jun 03 17:09:27 <javispedro> so then it is definitely sgx.
Jun 03 17:09:28 <DocScrutinizer> (I added that for the proper blairwitch effect :-P )
Jun 03 17:10:20 <javispedro> and this happened after a fresh boot, or with a long uptime?
Jun 03 17:10:33 <DocScrutinizer> probably rather fresh boot
Jun 03 17:10:48 <DocScrutinizer> like sitting idle after boot for some hours
Jun 03 17:11:10 <javispedro> then I bet this is caused by what I was talking about the other day, the 1 in a 60 chance of weird sgx boot
Jun 03 17:11:18 <DocScrutinizer> it's my devel device which doesn't run much more than a sshd usually
Jun 03 17:11:20 <javispedro> so prolly there's a 1 in a billion chance of really weird sgx boot.
Jun 03 17:11:41 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jun 03 17:12:25 * DocScrutinizer ponders moving the video to YT for easy watching
Jun 03 17:12:41 <DocScrutinizer> dunno if it's worth the effort
Jun 03 17:12:48 <javispedro> it can't hurt
Jun 03 17:13:10 <DocScrutinizer> k, so teach me about upping to YT, please :-) never did it
Jun 03 17:13:34 <DocScrutinizer> heard I'd need to convert to flash, can't do that
Jun 03 17:13:46 <javispedro> you probably don't, yours was xvid
Jun 03 17:14:17 <DocScrutinizer> mp4 aka H263? sth
Jun 03 17:14:25 <javispedro> mpeg4 asf
Jun 03 17:14:42 <javispedro> (not h263 iirc)
Jun 03 17:15:33 <DocScrutinizer> otoh YT has some size limitations as well AFAIK
Jun 03 17:15:53 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: ping
Jun 03 17:15:57 <javispedro> s/ASF/ASP
Jun 03 17:16:10 * RST38h moos at javispedro and the Doc
Jun 03 17:16:20 * DocScrutinizer remoos
Jun 03 17:16:28 <javispedro> HELO RST38h
Jun 03 17:16:41 <RST38h> Internet Explorer Use Slips Below 55%
Jun 03 17:16:45 <RST38h> Hehe
Jun 03 17:16:57 <javispedro> sadly, slashdot is returning 503 here =)
Jun 03 17:18:29 <RST38h> javispedro: You really want to watch dull people gloating?
Jun 03 17:19:13 <javispedro> no, but I want to read about that "bomb making info replaced with cupcake recipe by mi6" headline
Jun 03 17:19:51 <RST38h> javispedro: see it on theregister
Jun 03 17:19:57 <RST38h> But it is basically what it says
Jun 03 17:20:58 <GeneralAntilles> Can we just fast-forward to the 21st already?
Jun 03 17:22:06 <javispedro> to see another capacitive screen device?
Jun 03 17:23:14 * RST38h does not understand why people are getting all upset about capacitive/resistive thing
Jun 03 17:23:26 <GeneralAntilles> To see anything at all.
Jun 03 17:23:40 <GeneralAntilles> I'm sort of "Meh" about the whole issue at this point.
Jun 03 17:23:48 <style> http://paste.servut.us/plain/l165 any ideas why I'm unable to mount any of those devices?
Jun 03 17:23:50 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, it's not ideal. But I want something to be excited about.
Jun 03 17:24:16 <style> there is 4 /dev/usbdev1.58ep{00,02,81,83}
Jun 03 17:24:34 <javispedro> style: that does not look like a mass storage. you should try and use that camera on a normal gnu/Linux desktop first.
Jun 03 17:25:06 * javispedro still wants a stylus
Jun 03 17:25:09 <style> hmmm, one of those devices should be my memory card tough..
Jun 03 17:25:11 <RST38h> General: A 4.8" slim Acer Iconia Smart device? =)
Jun 03 17:26:08 <javispedro> RST38h: you kinda love 5'' devices, eh?
Jun 03 17:26:14 <style> normal linux desktop shows onl: [16952700.044057] usb 1-5: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 4
Jun 03 17:26:17 <style> [16952700.179804] usb 1-5: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice
Jun 03 17:26:22 <javispedro> style: pastebin
Jun 03 17:26:29 <style> javispedro: it was just 2 lines :/
Jun 03 17:26:32 <javispedro> ah.
Jun 03 17:26:53 <SpeedEvil> style: Are you sure you can in fact mount it at all?
Jun 03 17:27:02 <SpeedEvil> style: Anyway. Google.
Jun 03 17:27:19 <style> SpeedEvil: atm, no. I've tried to google and I didn't found anything :/
Jun 03 17:27:30 <style> well maybe the easiest way is to buy memory card reader
Jun 03 17:27:31 <SpeedEvil> style: Search for 04a9 3224 camera kernel driver
Jun 03 17:28:37 <RST38h> javispedro: I have poor sight and like reading from them
Jun 03 17:28:53 <style> SpeedEvil: propably hard to find because that camera model is like 1 month old
Jun 03 17:28:57 <RST38h> javispedro: So, yes, 5" would be ideal
Jun 03 17:29:19 <SpeedEvil> ah
Jun 03 17:29:30 <RST38h> Can even sacrifice the keyboard, given that it will make the whole device unpocketable
Jun 03 17:29:41 <SpeedEvil> style: what's the camera?
Jun 03 17:30:21 <style> canon powershot a3200 IS
Jun 03 17:30:42 <SpeedEvil> I'd look for projects reading canon powershot cameras.
Jun 03 17:30:47 <SpeedEvil> Look for earlier models
Jun 03 17:32:15 <danger94833> is overclocking with a backup an awful idea? (800mhz)
Jun 03 17:32:33 <RST38h> overclocking is a bad idea in general
Jun 03 17:32:43 <danger94833> old , out of warranty. etc
Jun 03 17:32:45 <SpeedEvil> style: http://www.gphoto.org/
Jun 03 17:32:53 <RST38h> although your NAND flash may die before your CPU does...
Jun 03 17:32:57 <danger94833> i overclcok my desktop, but i do realize x86 is different
Jun 03 17:33:38 <SpeedEvil> style: Lists tha A2100 IS
Jun 03 17:35:03 <danger94833> Also i dont use it 24/7, so thinking it wont be at high cpu clock so much, not going to mess with voltages.
Jun 03 17:37:50 <javispedro> larger screen = more feeling I need a stylus :(
Jun 03 17:38:36 <DocScrutinizer> ~omap-oc
Jun 03 17:38:37 <infobot> well, omap-oc is http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-08-01.log.html#t2010-08-01T22:16:05  read that!, or and this http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-03-11.log.html#t2011-03-11T03:04:11
Jun 03 17:39:33 <RST38h> javispedro: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&rlz=&q=capacitive+stylus&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1227911920744035289&sa=X&ei=LBzpTeiaHo3Jsga9x_XnCg&ved=0CCoQ8wIwAg
Jun 03 17:40:05 <RST38h> Also here: http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Acapacitive%20stylus&page=1 (yes, I know, they look like sausages)
Jun 03 17:40:13 <javispedro> RST38h: note: the capacitive stylus ois on the opposite side to the ball point pen part.
Jun 03 17:40:40 <javispedro> RST38h: they basically suck. I already have a natural sausage implanted on my body (called finger) if I really wanted to use a sausage for some reason.
Jun 03 17:41:48 <RST38h> there are some relatively thin ones though
Jun 03 17:41:57 <javispedro> but ofc what I want is a ... stylus. sharp pointed stylus.
Jun 03 17:42:19 <javispedro> more thin => less sensitive on capacitive
Jun 03 17:42:53 <RST38h> how about getting the ipen (or whatever it is called) and using it as a stylus?
Jun 03 17:43:03 <danger94833> hey all, running smartreflux doesnt seem to cause anything UI/crasing problems.. should i continue running it?
Jun 03 17:43:11 <javispedro> RST38h: what is the ipen?
Jun 03 17:43:27 <javispedro> ah, optical stuff
Jun 03 17:43:36 <RST38h> a pen with some optics and a bt interface
Jun 03 17:43:43 <RST38h> kinda like mini optical mouse
Jun 03 17:43:50 <javispedro> that might be a sellable idea.
Jun 03 17:44:12 <javispedro> but you might need certain resolution on the screen.
Jun 03 17:44:17 <RST38h> http://www.livescribe.com/en-us/smartpen/
Jun 03 17:44:26 <RST38h> you do not use it on the screen, you use it on paper :)
Jun 03 17:44:36 <RST38h> or a desktop, or anthing
Jun 03 17:44:37 <javispedro> =)
Jun 03 17:46:45 <danger94833> doesnt the livescribe require special paper?
Jun 03 17:46:50 <RST38h> yep
Jun 03 17:48:00 <danger94833> i would of bought it if it didnt require special paper
Jun 03 17:48:24 <javispedro> you can print the paper
Jun 03 17:48:33 <danger94833> really?
Jun 03 17:48:41 <javispedro> it's just a grid.
Jun 03 17:49:24 <danger94833> so i buy it, print out say 100 sheets , put it in a binder... write on it with the pen, it "saves" , and then sends to like evernote?
Jun 03 17:49:41 <javispedro> yes
Jun 03 17:49:57 <danger94833> how long is the battery life?
Jun 03 17:50:08 <javispedro> I was really considering once long ago -- until I saw the price.
Jun 03 17:50:16 <javispedro> *considering one
Jun 03 17:50:17 <danger94833> $99?
Jun 03 17:50:38 <javispedro> way more
Jun 03 17:50:41 <javispedro> oh.
Jun 03 17:50:44 <danger94833> oh
Jun 03 17:50:45 <danger94833> back then
Jun 03 17:51:04 <danger94833> is it just black and white printing?
Jun 03 17:51:08 <danger94833> i honestly want to buy one now
Jun 03 17:51:30 <javispedro> danger94833: they list on their website printers that are compatible, search for them if you plan to buy one.
Jun 03 17:51:45 <danger94833> have to be special printer?
Jun 03 17:52:07 <DocScrutinizer> good printers will do I guess
Jun 03 17:52:09 <danger94833> i was gonna goto one of those printing stores , get it mass photocopied
Jun 03 17:52:16 <javispedro> needs some resolution.
Jun 03 17:52:31 <javispedro> "back then" the list was long already.
Jun 03 17:52:34 <DocScrutinizer> the grid is "morse code"
Jun 03 17:52:40 <javispedro> so I'd bet any recent printer will make it these days.
Jun 03 17:52:55 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jun 03 17:57:27 <danger94833> you will need a Color LaserJet Printer that is Adobe PostScript compatible and can print at 600dpi or higher.
Jun 03 18:06:29 <javispedro> if this wasn't complete vaporware: http://www.noteslate.com/
Jun 03 18:08:56 <danger94833> heh
Jun 03 18:09:04 <danger94833> javispedro: im gonna buy the livescribe next week
Jun 03 18:10:06 <Jaffa> javispedro: That thread is teh lolz
Jun 03 18:10:40 <danger94833> bought a 50Wh portable battery pack :)
Jun 03 18:10:40 <javispedro> toldya :)
Jun 03 18:12:10 <lcukn900> i thought that read 50kWh and wondered whether it came 2ith a wheelbarrow
Jun 03 18:12:25 <danger94833> lcukn900: :)
Jun 03 18:12:41 <lcukn900> javis which thread?
Jun 03 18:12:48 <javispedro> lcukn900: seems that noteslate guys updated website but no shipping and no new shipping date
Jun 03 18:12:52 <danger94833> i figure the n900 .. 1320*3.7V = 4.88Wh .. so id get about 10 charges worth.
Jun 03 18:13:24 <DocScrutinizer> ~dict wheelbarrow
Jun 03 18:13:27 <infobot> Dictionary 'wheelbarrow' (2): a cart for carrying small loads; has handles and one or more wheels  ;; \Wheel"bar`row\, n. A light vehicle for conveying small loads. It has two handles and one wheel, and is rolled by a single person. [1913 Webster].
Jun 03 18:13:35 <javispedro> lcukn900: the abill_uk Nokia release source thread: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=73419
Jun 03 18:13:45 <lcukn900> javis i still wonder if the os will match.  i know some softwre that will suit it though
Jun 03 18:14:02 <DocScrutinizer> danger94833: writing on the bat says 4.9, so yes
Jun 03 18:14:17 <danger94833> omg it displays
Jun 03 18:14:21 <danger94833> i had to use a calculator
Jun 03 18:14:40 <danger94833> (wasnt aware of the equation)
Jun 03 18:15:01 <javispedro> lcukn900: more worried whether they'll ship at all.
Jun 03 18:15:51 <lcukn900> javis find out if the hardware exists and with some help will try and put real handwritten UX on it
Jun 03 18:16:13 <DocScrutinizer> though due to efficiency loss you'll not get 10 charges out of 50Wh
Jun 03 18:19:00 <danger94833> 8-9? :p
Jun 03 18:19:27 * DocScrutinizer idly wonders about the kill-factor of harmattan HE to fremantle, and silently hopes for it to never ship
Jun 03 18:19:52 <DocScrutinizer> danger94833: 8 sounds reasonable
Jun 03 18:22:10 <DocScrutinizer> ETA for N900_goes_psycho on YT: 133min
Jun 03 18:22:14 <danger94833> thats insane :) should never run out of battery :P
Jun 03 18:26:29 <Jaffa> DocScrutinizer: Based on previous HE's; Harmattan HE won't be what kills Fremantle.
Jun 03 18:26:46 <Jaffa> DocScrutinizer: It'll be all the people with clue getting Harmattan devices and not working on N900s anymore that'll kill Fremantle.
Jun 03 18:27:03 <Jaffa> Especially if the dev device/consumer device split is real - and devs can get the devices with a keyboard.
Jun 03 18:27:16 <DocScrutinizer> that's exactly what I referred to
Jun 03 18:27:57 <DocScrutinizer> couldn't think of any better way to kill maemo for good
Jun 03 18:28:49 <lcukn900> if the qt apps are strong maemo  as an upstream ux/app provider to meego/harmattan is still practical
Jun 03 18:28:54 <Jaffa> I thought the "HE" stood for "Hacker Edition". i.e. the backport we got of OS2007 etc.
Jun 03 18:28:58 <DocScrutinizer> and honestly - harmattan "meego"??? c'mon what's that? is it compatible to *anything* ?  does it have any future whatsoever?
Jun 03 18:29:20 <javispedro> it is compatible to maemo.
Jun 03 18:29:30 <javispedro> as long as you limit yourself to non-gui apps ;)
Jun 03 18:29:36 <Jaffa> lcukn900: I'm not entirely convinced of the niceness of maintaining Fremantle/Harmattan/MeeGo/Symbian apps. Having tried it for something as simple as Attitude.
Jun 03 18:29:36 <DocScrutinizer> hahaha
Jun 03 18:29:50 <ShadowJK> MeeGo compatibility, where MeeGo == QT, I think :-)
Jun 03 18:30:20 <lcukn900> jaffa you did not try to maintain it, you rewrote it
Jun 03 18:30:27 <lcukn900> big difference.
Jun 03 18:31:18 <lcukn900> look at venemo, he has 1 codebase for qt, one app, available on everything from n8x0 n900 maemo meego ubuntu windows and probably a few i forgot
Jun 03 18:31:37 <lcukn900> qt *CAN* do crossplatform relatively easily
Jun 03 18:31:48 <DocScrutinizer> to me all fits nicely into Elop's masterplan to keep Nokia down
Jun 03 18:31:59 <javispedro> lcukn900: he uses Qml?
Jun 03 18:32:05 <lcukn900> but if you decide to rewrite it is more troublesome
Jun 03 18:32:20 <lcukn900> your attitude had you used native qt woud be happy
Jun 03 18:32:32 <lcukn900> javis idk he uses qt
Jun 03 18:32:37 <DocScrutinizer> really a Machiavellian genius, this Elop
Jun 03 18:32:40 <javispedro> prolly QWidgets
Jun 03 18:32:41 <javispedro> btw
Jun 03 18:32:42 <lcukn900> shopper from lbt should be similar
Jun 03 18:33:05 <javispedro> Windows 8 new default API for the "tablet mode" apps is ... HTML+Javascript
Jun 03 18:33:20 <javispedro> not dot net, not silverlight.
Jun 03 18:33:32 * ShadowJK has doubts about this QML thing though, python is already memory and CPU hungry.. How much heavier is QT and QML?
Jun 03 18:33:57 <lcukn900> but using python and bindings and changing direction partway through is what yours went wrong jaffa, you  are spending more time now remaking it than just tweaking your simple lowest common denominator base code
Jun 03 18:34:27 <lcukn900> plus it would have been marginally faster :p
Jun 03 18:36:05 <lcukn900> python bindings prevented attitude from running everywhere qt ran before as well, attitude on windows would be trivial
Jun 03 18:37:04 <DocScrutinizer> a pity to see Nokia shooting their own foot, then recharging and shooting the other, then asking "who's gonna help us to shoot some other peripherals, or shoot at head if you like that better"
Jun 03 18:37:22 <lcukn900> there are other issues for sure with the direction i took, but my code runs happily on the devices i targeted and still today is happy compiling and running on n8x0 up and on meego machines
Jun 03 18:37:57 <javispedro> lcukn900: right until they switch to wayland! ;)
Jun 03 18:38:53 <lcukn900> javis i have minimal x11 depenendencies and could talk easily on wayland when required
Jun 03 18:39:09 <danger94833> lcukn900: liqbase?
Jun 03 18:39:10 <lcukn900> remember i just used minimal footprint
Jun 03 18:39:13 <lcukn900> yeah
Jun 03 18:39:24 <danger94833> still code it?
Jun 03 18:39:25 <lcukn900> infact it will probably work better on wayland
Jun 03 18:39:31 <javispedro> I know, but your app is basically an operating system =)
Jun 03 18:39:37 <lcukn900> i tinker and polish
Jun 03 18:39:39 <danger94833> when is this switch to wayland happening?
Jun 03 18:39:58 <DocScrutinizer> *burrp*
Jun 03 18:40:03 * DocScrutinizer hpes never
Jun 03 18:40:08 <lcukn900> javis not really that is just the playground
Jun 03 18:40:09 <javispedro> lcukn900: prolly not, if you use xv... x11 already does little for you.
Jun 03 18:40:17 <lcukn900> the apps all build and run as standalone
Jun 03 18:40:29 <danger94833> been quite out of the loop, last i heard it was still much in coding, and saw it in this linux magazine at work the other day
Jun 03 18:40:33 <lcukn900> javis that is my point
Jun 03 18:40:53 <lcukn900> i do not have dependencies on x11 itself really
Jun 03 18:41:03 <lcukn900> cool
Jun 03 18:41:19 <lcukn900> which mag? can you scan a copy?
Jun 03 18:41:21 <danger94833> isnt wayland very fast?
Jun 03 18:41:55 <javispedro> what wayland is is very overrated.
Jun 03 18:41:56 <lcukn900> from what i hear. yes
Jun 03 18:42:09 <DocScrutinizer> wayland is as fast as X11 been before they added to X11 what makes it better than wayland
Jun 03 18:42:15 <lcukn900> faster pathway than x11 certainly
Jun 03 18:43:28 <DocScrutinizer> once wayland is on par with X11 feature wise, it will be as bloated and slow as X11 is now
Jun 03 18:43:43 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: but I bet they don't want to make it on par with X11.
Jun 03 18:43:53 <lcuk> wayland does not aim to be feature for feature compatible
Jun 03 18:43:54 <RST38h> Wayland is Havoc Pennington's wet dream of killing X11 coming true =)
Jun 03 18:44:06 <RST38h> Doc: It will not be
Jun 03 18:44:21 <DocScrutinizer> you could as well strip down X11 and call it X11_lite--kicks-waylands-arse
Jun 03 18:44:31 <RST38h> Doc: They are limiting themselves to composition only
Jun 03 18:45:47 <DocScrutinizer> but I guess some L.P. alike character needs a NIH playground, so they called it wayland
Jun 03 18:46:17 <DocScrutinizer> ~nih
Jun 03 18:46:17 <infobot> i heard nih is \"Not Invented Here\" - a syndrome often suffered by developers and companies who tend to reinvent the wheel for no reason other than being able to put their name on it.
Jun 03 18:50:46 <DocScrutinizer> ooops, no reply? I'm "acting erratically" once more?
Jun 03 18:52:02 <javispedro> it's just that ranting on wayland is boring when there are no wayland fans around ;)
Jun 03 18:52:19 <DocScrutinizer> hehehe
Jun 03 18:54:13 * merlin1991 wonders why X doesn't do what opengl did
Jun 03 18:54:27 <MohammadAG> DocScrutinizer, pong
Jun 03 18:55:20 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: nm, liked to ask you about YT, but I managed to handle that - even without getting allergic shock
Jun 03 18:55:33 <MohammadAG> YouTube?
Jun 03 18:55:43 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jun 03 18:56:30 <DocScrutinizer> actually with my age old google account still around, it was easy
Jun 03 18:56:31 <Jaffa> lcuk: I'm talking about the QML port of Attitude.
Jun 03 18:57:27 <Jaffa> lcuk: This is an app with no widgets, remember. But having a single codebase which works on MeeGo/Maemo/Harmattan/Symbian is already tricky.
Jun 03 19:00:39 <MohammadAG> What's Attitude?
Jun 03 19:01:15 * javispedro hits MohammadAG
Jun 03 19:01:26 <MohammadAG> Ow!
Jun 03 19:01:55 <MohammadAG> Graduating tomorrow :D
Jun 03 19:02:07 <javispedro> MohammadAG: on what?
Jun 03 19:02:26 <MohammadAG> javispedro, high school
Jun 03 19:02:31 <javispedro> ah
Jun 03 19:02:38 <javispedro> good job :)
Jun 03 19:04:10 <DocScrutinizer> good luck, MohammadAG
Jun 03 19:05:45 <DocScrutinizer> hope to find you working for your CS bachelor soon, smashing maemo/meego to pieces and rebuilding it to sth better ;-)
Jun 03 19:06:15 <MohammadAG> Thanks DocScrutinizer :D
Jun 03 19:07:59 <DocScrutinizer> but wait, there's probably no making a living in that, so better find sth *real* for your future
Jun 03 19:10:35 <DocScrutinizer> as my colleague used to say: "there are so many nice professions: Butcher, baker, bricklayer - just me moron had to insist in messing with computers"
Jun 03 19:11:36 <javispedro> why does everyone tell everyone else their career sucks?
Jun 03 19:11:39 <jacekowski> you know what, friend electrician told me that sometimes on a good day he can do as much as i do in a week
Jun 03 19:11:40 <merlin1991> DocScrutinizer: but but .. it's fun?
Jun 03 19:11:51 <jacekowski> but he is self employed
Jun 03 19:13:00 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: at least that friend of mine reasoned about his own career
Jun 03 19:13:10 <javispedro> oops
Jun 03 19:13:23 <DocScrutinizer> sometimes I feel like him
Jun 03 19:13:24 <javispedro> s/their career sucks/his own career sucks/
Jun 03 19:14:26 <DocScrutinizer> and yeah, you inevitably face those moments when dealing ith entities like Siemens
Jun 03 19:15:47 <javispedro> either way, enough with career talk, it's depressing. let's continue bashing wayland.
Jun 03 19:16:04 <DocScrutinizer> who tell you "meh, CIM isn't anything more than moving around some data records, so please do it in COBOL, as we (the clerks) know to read that"
Jun 03 19:16:09 <MohammadAG> <DocScrutinizer> as my colleague used to say: "there are so many nice professions: Butcher, baker, bricklayer - just me moron had to insist in messing with computers"
Jun 03 19:16:14 <MohammadAG> what's wrong with CS/CE/EE?
Jun 03 19:16:33 <DocScrutinizer> see above :-)
Jun 03 19:17:32 <javispedro> nothing wrong with cobol..
Jun 03 19:17:38 <DocScrutinizer> coding a CIM for a 100 engines 700 workers fab, with automated transport systems and all, in *COBOL*...
Jun 03 19:17:59 <DocScrutinizer> you're sometimes starting to wonder... "baker maybe?"
Jun 03 19:18:39 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: yeah, and the 30% assembler we needed to interface all the machines were mere fun
Jun 03 19:19:53 <DocScrutinizer> but admittedly doing the aggregating over the production records to give statistics was a charm in COBOL
Jun 03 19:21:20 * danger94833 wonders how many more years in IT he needs before he understands what was just said :)
Jun 03 19:21:42 <DocScrutinizer> and I had a nice task to develop a data dictionary tool to unify datatypes across the whole project, for the include files to COBOL
Jun 03 19:22:21 <DocScrutinizer> called COPY elements
Jun 03 19:22:48 <jacekowski> CIM?
Jun 03 19:22:53 <DocScrutinizer> alas on cobol copy elements can't include copy elements, so you got a problem there
Jun 03 19:23:02 <DocScrutinizer> automating a fab
Jun 03 19:23:35 <jacekowski> well, biggest problem is having whole thing described and understand the process
Jun 03 19:23:38 * danger94833 believes 10 years. 
Jun 03 19:23:49 <jacekowski> coding it later on is easy part
Jun 03 19:23:57 <jacekowski> is knowing what to code is hard
Jun 03 19:24:55 <jacekowski> and sometimes people think that it's simple when it isn't
Jun 03 19:25:48 <jacekowski> like when i was doing fuel transfer system for some site that runs on red diesel and cooking oil
Jun 03 19:26:18 <jacekowski> where you have like 12 different valves + output breaker states
Jun 03 19:26:26 <jacekowski> + what is generator supposed to be doing
Jun 03 19:26:39 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, lucky you having cobol
Jun 03 19:26:44 <DocScrutinizer> jacekowski: it's simple to say "we are using YYYYMMDDHHMMSSss for *all* timestamps and durations in our project", but it is kinda difficult to make that happen in a correct way, when you are using COBOL to implement your program
Jun 03 19:27:06 <jacekowski> it took like 3h to draw how whole thing is supposed to operate
Jun 03 19:27:27 <jacekowski> because it should never generate on red diesel
Jun 03 19:27:36 <ShadowJK> stuff here is all in Ladder. I had never heard of it before. It was like discovering a bunch of stoneage people bashing rocks together. Good thing I dont have to touch that shit :-)
Jun 03 19:27:49 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: ladder logic is nice thing
Jun 03 19:27:59 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: as long as it's not some limited implementation
Jun 03 19:28:10 <ShadowJK> jacekowski, touchscreen guis?
Jun 03 19:28:20 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: done that
Jun 03 19:28:52 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: i've done B&R screens that were meant to be programmed in C from beggining
Jun 03 19:29:01 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: but later on to make some people happy they added ladder logic
Jun 03 19:29:09 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: very poorly implemented
Jun 03 19:29:49 <jacekowski> there are some screens that you can see that were designed for ladder logic from begginging
Jun 03 19:29:56 <jacekowski> and it's completly different thing
Jun 03 19:30:38 <jacekowski> because then it looks bit more like designing ICs
Jun 03 19:30:44 <jacekowski> not exactly like that
Jun 03 19:30:49 <jacekowski> but you get some functional blocks
Jun 03 19:30:56 <jacekowski> gates
Jun 03 19:31:00 <jacekowski> math functions
Jun 03 19:31:02 <jacekowski> logic functions
Jun 03 19:31:23 <jacekowski> and you get some sad implementations that can do nothing
Jun 03 19:33:03 <lcuk> Jaffa, does it work on your n900?
Jun 03 19:33:39 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: but ladder logic is meant mostly for EEs
Jun 03 19:33:49 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: as it's supposed to look like physical relays
Jun 03 19:34:04 <DocScrutinizer> *BURP*
Jun 03 19:34:14 <DocScrutinizer> :shudder:
Jun 03 19:34:21 <jacekowski> ShadowJK: but thing is, good EE will not have big problem learning normal programming language
Jun 03 19:34:42 <DocScrutinizer> exactly
Jun 03 19:35:27 <DocScrutinizer> I know similar crap under the name of STEPS5/7
Jun 03 19:35:33 <jacekowski> done that
Jun 03 19:35:51 <DocScrutinizer> disgusting stuff
Jun 03 19:36:20 <jacekowski> again, simatics were never meant for ladder logic
Jun 03 19:36:47 <DocScrutinizer> like playing with LEGO and always missing the stone with 7 nipples
Jun 03 19:38:00 <DocScrutinizer> we had to do a lot of interfacing to simatic SPS5 back when we coded that COBOL CIM
Jun 03 19:38:05 <lcuk> DocScrutinizer, lego bricks generall have an even number of nobbles
Jun 03 19:38:11 <lcuk> and they were never described as nipples
Jun 03 19:38:17 <DocScrutinizer> those guys always were terribly nervous and depressed
Jun 03 19:39:26 <DocScrutinizer> lcuk: excuse my French :-)
Jun 03 19:39:42 <ShadowJK> it's actually Simatics at work..
Jun 03 19:40:21 <jacekowski> but siemens is german
Jun 03 19:40:26 <jacekowski> so you can't expect too much
Jun 03 19:40:49 <jacekowski> i really like hitachi PLCs
Jun 03 19:40:51 <dm8tbr> no it's siemens, that's worse than german
Jun 03 19:41:06 <jacekowski> and yokogawa
Jun 03 19:41:30 <ShadowJK> lol
Jun 03 19:42:31 <ShadowJK> also some amount of actual crankshaft+notches+switches+relays :)
Jun 03 19:43:19 <ShadowJK> Sometimes forming part of plc program...
Jun 03 19:43:30 <DocScrutinizer> lag: 27s
Jun 03 19:43:59 * ShadowJK yawns
Jun 03 19:44:00 <DocScrutinizer> I hate javascript based file uploaders - no way to manage bandwidth
Jun 03 19:44:36 <ShadowJK> When's N950 coming out, will we get keyboard or not :(
Jun 03 19:45:00 <DocScrutinizer> and while I got a downstream of like 1Mb actually idling, I am waiting for webpages to open until connections time out
Jun 03 19:45:02 <javispedro> never and no
Jun 03 19:45:24 <ShadowJK> lol
Jun 03 19:45:46 <DocScrutinizer> jivisperdo???
Jun 03 19:46:05 <DocScrutinizer> ragequit?
Jun 03 19:46:07 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, I used to use iptables to rate limit uploads and downloads
Jun 03 19:46:43 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: actually a bit tricky when your uploader is a javascript crap in a youtube webpage
Jun 03 19:47:57 <DocScrutinizer> I mean - how would I prioritize other web pages over that one?
Jun 03 19:48:17 <nox-> youd prioritize acks
Jun 03 19:48:22 <nox-> and maybe limit upload bw
Jun 03 19:48:40 <DocScrutinizer> hmmm
Jun 03 19:49:35 <DocScrutinizer> or simply write a job that sigstop's that process every other second ;-D
Jun 03 19:49:42 <nox-> haha
Jun 03 19:49:52 <DocScrutinizer> lag: 7s
Jun 03 19:51:07 <DocScrutinizer> i've no problems with it eating up 100% of one of my 2 cores, but the congestion of upstream is a PITA
Jun 03 19:51:38 <DocScrutinizer> 77% ETA 44min
Jun 03 19:52:07 <SpeedEvil> Err
Jun 03 19:52:11 <nox-> anything interesting you're putting on youtube? :)
Jun 03 19:52:23 <SpeedEvil> I vaguely recall thatyou can do that with net filtering
Jun 03 19:52:29 <nox-> yeah as i said
Jun 03 19:52:36 <nox-> ack prio
Jun 03 19:52:39 <jacekowski> DocScrutinizer: you prioritise traffic with smaller queue
Jun 03 19:52:40 <DocScrutinizer> the N900_going_psycho movie I took last night
Jun 03 19:52:41 <GeneralAntilles> ShadowJK: I think we may be getting both.
Jun 03 19:52:51 <GeneralAntilles> Supposedly the one sans keyboard has better specs for some reason, though. :\
Jun 03 19:53:06 <SpeedEvil> jacekowski: Or you rate limit all outgoing http to x
Jun 03 19:53:20 <jacekowski> not universal enough
Jun 03 19:53:50 <SpeedEvil> Smaller queue doesnt' always help
Jun 03 19:53:56 <nox-> what did you do to the poor device doc? :)
Jun 03 19:54:00 * DocScrutinizer starts feeling sick when pondering GAN900 news
Jun 03 19:54:09 <GAN900> Nokia iz dum
Jun 03 19:54:33 <SpeedEvil> If you have a transfer to a low RTT hose, and one to a far RTT host, the far RTT will starve - even if you proritise on queue lengths.
Jun 03 19:54:38 <DocScrutinizer> nox-: MEEE? I did nothing - is what Bart Simpson said
Jun 03 19:54:49 <nox-> :)
Jun 03 19:58:02 * DocScrutinizer curses on not finding a EU standard sized plastic straw for his new charger hack
Jun 03 19:58:48 <ruskie> eu standard sized???
Jun 03 19:58:51 <ruskie> that exist?
Jun 03 19:59:03 <DocScrutinizer> another field McD ruined ;-)
Jun 03 19:59:26 <DocScrutinizer> ruskie: I'm just calling the old-school straws like that
Jun 03 19:59:43 <DocScrutinizer> those with ~2.5mm diameter
Jun 03 20:00:03 <DocScrutinizer> you hardly find them anywhere nowadays
Jun 03 20:01:06 <ShadowJK> yeah, rate linit http to ip x where x is the destination for your big uoload
Jun 03 20:01:36 <DocScrutinizer> that's easy but needs realtime config
Jun 03 20:02:00 <DocScrutinizer> as I got nfc about x
Jun 03 20:02:18 <ShadowJK> GeneralAntilles, ah the usual Nokia piss-off-users, uh, I mean "segmentation"? :)
Jun 03 20:02:47 <DocScrutinizer> I *might* do this if YT upload server has same IP all the time and I'd do that stuff frequently
Jun 03 20:02:55 <GAN900> Product timing, I guess.
Jun 03 20:03:02 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, yeah obviously only worth it for multihour uploads where you manually check netstat to find the connection and manually create iptables rules to ratelimit
Jun 03 20:03:38 <rm_work> GAN900: what's up? some news?
Jun 03 20:03:51 <GAN900> rm_work, nothing exciting.
Jun 03 20:03:57 <rm_work> k
Jun 03 20:04:01 * rm_work goes back to his corner
Jun 03 20:04:36 * DocScrutinizer ponders a nice shower
Jun 03 20:06:05 <DocScrutinizer> GAN900: BSP! Nokia, gimme BSP and take your OS and eat it
Jun 03 20:06:38 * ShadowJK hopes for wifi roaming
Jun 03 20:06:43 <DocScrutinizer> linux community never been in need of manufacturers to deliver their crap with working OS
Jun 03 20:07:11 <DocScrutinizer> alas that'S a bit of FOSS Nokia never got the catch of
Jun 03 20:08:17 <DocScrutinizer> not even with meego where they really had the chance to go for BSP_only policy
Jun 03 20:09:20 <DocScrutinizer> instead of a decent BSP they now come up with this "meego" harmattan HE abomination
Jun 03 20:10:32 <DocScrutinizer> another missed opportunity to do the *right* thing and *not* shoot your own foot
Jun 03 20:11:15 * DocScrutinizer really wonders what makes Nokia think they got the know how to build a decent OS, from "scratch"
Jun 03 20:11:54 <DocScrutinizer> even more, what makes them think anybody really wants them to do that
Jun 03 20:13:10 <lcuk> DocScrutinizer, technically it is possible
Jun 03 20:13:36 <lcuk> because didn't one single Finn choose to do exactly that about 30 years ago
Jun 03 20:13:51 <DocScrutinizer> indeed
Jun 03 20:14:20 <ruskie> 30 years ago?
Jun 03 20:14:56 <DocScrutinizer> and I guess nowadays the drivers coming from BSPs and those created by community by RE are 50/50
Jun 03 20:20:33 <DocScrutinizer> honestly, Nokia missed a opportunity when they dropped (or never even thought of) shipping their devices with $random_proprietary_OS (sybian / wincrap) *plus* a decent linux BSP, maybe including a barebones FOSS dialer implementation
Jun 03 20:21:37 <DocScrutinizer> why ICD2  ?
Jun 03 20:21:47 <DocScrutinizer> why location_lib?
Jun 03 20:22:06 <DocScrutinizer> why blobs for calendar and dialer and whatnot?
Jun 03 20:23:36 <ShadowJK> icd at the time was probably sensible because nm wasn't working and the nm authors were outright hostile to patches
Jun 03 20:23:45 <DocScrutinizer> all just cruft born from the idea they need to ship their hw with a shiny working full fledged linux OS. Drop that idea, ship with WinP7 plus a linux BSP
Jun 03 20:26:20 <DocScrutinizer> give support to linux community when they run into problems on porting their stuff to Nokia hw. everybody happy, and for sure we'd be way further with that concept being followed back on rise of N900 than we are now with fremantle just another 50% blobs release
Jun 03 20:27:11 <DocScrutinizer> and next OS from Nokia quite likely is the same again
Jun 03 20:27:45 <DocScrutinizer> where "next OS" == harmattan "meego"
Jun 03 20:29:28 <DocScrutinizer> darn, I forgot to copy SpeedEvil 's golden statement about maemo and what it looks like
Jun 03 20:30:03 <ruskie> BSP?
Jun 03 20:30:08 <DocScrutinizer> it quite suggests why things weren't done that way sketched above
Jun 03 20:30:24 <DocScrutinizer> board support package, goole linux bsp
Jun 03 20:30:45 <ruskie> so basically drivers?
Jun 03 20:30:50 <DocScrutinizer> windows worls calls that "driver cd"
Jun 03 20:30:58 <ruskie> and a way to boot it I guess
Jun 03 20:31:08 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jun 03 20:31:22 <ruskie> yeah that could actually work better
Jun 03 20:32:59 <DocScrutinizer> ETA 3min \o/
Jun 03 20:33:04 <ruskie> ?
Jun 03 20:34:29 <DocScrutinizer> some lengthy YT upload that eats my DSL bandwidth and makes surfing a PITA
Jun 03 20:36:57 <ruskie> ahh
Jun 03 20:37:11 * ruskie is downloading the welcome back stuff from psn
Jun 03 20:38:52 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-2uAOypbfg  hmmm
Jun 03 20:45:50 <RST38h> Nokia at 6.66
Jun 03 20:46:00 <RST38h> Ah, the magic of the numbers...
Jun 03 20:46:05 <jacekowski> going up or down?
Jun 03 20:46:16 <RST38h> up!
Jun 03 20:52:44 <DocScrutinizer> the've seen my video and the *awesome* things you can encounter with Nokia devices :-)
Jun 03 20:52:50 <ShadowJK> Telling users/customers that symbian is dead man walking was a brilliant move ;P
Jun 03 20:53:58 <ShadowJK> relink?
Jun 03 20:57:55 <DocScrutinizer> honestly I like the music part the best, I never even knew this song been on that device (I don't even know the song)
Jun 03 21:16:45 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: I know one thing now: I never should try real stock trading - I "bought" on NOK=7.01EUR, now they are down to 4.51
Jun 03 21:20:26 <ShadowJK> heh, how much?
Jun 03 21:20:44 <DocScrutinizer> virtual 50.000 (ouch)
Jun 03 21:20:47 <_trine> sell now
Jun 03 21:20:51 <_trine> :)
Jun 03 21:21:42 <MohammadAG> DocScrutinizer, what video?
Jun 03 21:21:53 * MohammadAG can't figure out image uploads on facebook
Jun 03 21:22:35 <DocScrutinizer> then I have to realize a virtual loss of ~18.000EUR and have to get drunk with a lot of virtual beer ;-)
Jun 03 21:22:53 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-2uAOypbfg
Jun 03 21:23:29 <ShadowJK> oh, virtual?
Jun 03 21:23:40 <DocScrutinizer> yeah ;-D
Jun 03 21:23:42 <MohammadAG> what exactly is that o_O
Jun 03 21:23:53 <MohammadAG> oh
Jun 03 21:23:58 <MohammadAG> DocScrutinizer, I've had that once
Jun 03 21:24:11 <MohammadAG> ssh in, you can see it's the SGX going nuts
Jun 03 21:24:37 <DocScrutinizer> that's exactly what I thought, also javispedro
Jun 03 21:24:53 <MohammadAG> that's exactly what dmesg said :P
Jun 03 21:25:04 <MohammadAG> you know, SGX Hardware recovery triggered
Jun 03 21:25:13 <DocScrutinizer> I have to admit I didn't even consider looking at my ssh window of laptop nearby :-/
Jun 03 21:25:14 <MohammadAG> and [sgx_miser] taking up 100% CPU time
Jun 03 21:26:03 <ShadowJK> nice song :)
Jun 03 21:26:06 <DocScrutinizer> anyway it's really nice and funny - considereng to build an alternative UX for meego based on that concept ;-P
Jun 03 21:26:40 <ShadowJK> that's pretty awesome with the triangles
Jun 03 21:26:44 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: do you know it?
Jun 03 21:26:53 <merlin1991> DocScrutinizer: I had that too once
Jun 03 21:26:54 <DocScrutinizer> (the song)
Jun 03 21:27:17 <DocScrutinizer> btw I also called sb during that video ;-P
Jun 03 21:27:32 <DocScrutinizer> didn't even notice until he called me back next morning
Jun 03 21:27:45 <ShadowJK> nope
Jun 03 21:28:04 <DocScrutinizer> (via SIP :-D )
Jun 03 21:28:05 <ShadowJK> (i dont know the song)
Jun 03 21:28:21 * DocScrutinizer neither
Jun 03 21:28:35 <Jackle> hello
Jun 03 21:28:53 <ShadowJK> maybe it was internet radio
Jun 03 21:29:02 <DocScrutinizer> haha
Jun 03 21:29:04 <DocScrutinizer> maybe
Jun 03 21:29:58 <Jackle> could I ask a simple question about nitdroid here?
Jun 03 21:30:07 <DocScrutinizer> not really
Jun 03 21:30:23 <DocScrutinizer> except if you wanna know if it sucks ;-)
Jun 03 21:30:31 <DocScrutinizer> you can try nevertheless
Jun 03 21:30:44 <Jackle> lol its not a technical question at all
Jun 03 21:31:20 <Jackle> if I was to install nitdroid n12 on my emmc then start my n900 with the keyboard closed what would happen?
Jun 03 21:31:43 <DocScrutinizer> explode?
Jun 03 21:32:19 <Jackle> basicly I want to have nitdroid available but dont want a boot menu everytime I start my n900
Jun 03 21:33:15 <cehteh> hehe someone hack the bootmenu to query the accelerometer .. depending on how you hold the n900 a different OS would be booted :P
Jun 03 21:33:22 <DocScrutinizer> mhm, alas nitdroid folks are ignorant about fixing their boot scheme
Jun 03 21:34:09 <DocScrutinizer> and it seems to me like nobody 'here' (=maemo) is interested in doing it for them
Jun 03 21:34:16 <Jackle> so theres no way of getting around that screen and straight into maemo?
Jun 03 21:34:28 <DocScrutinizer> :shrug:
Jun 03 21:34:58 <DocScrutinizer> it's using multiboot, and multiboot is a nasty 'dangerous' hack and strongly deprecated
Jun 03 21:36:11 <DocScrutinizer> that's why the chan /topic is the way it is
Jun 03 21:37:26 <DocScrutinizer> if you are interested in sanitizing the nitridiot realated boot, I'd suggest you talk to folks at #nitdroid
Jun 03 21:38:19 <Jackle> sorry I didnt know they had an irc channel
Jun 03 21:38:21 <DocScrutinizer> unless it's about specifics of uBoot, the recommended multibooting bootloader
Jun 03 21:41:20 <Jackle> so anybody tried the qspot app?
Jun 03 21:42:14 <DocScrutinizer> what is that?
Jun 03 21:45:50 <DocScrutinizer> mhm spotify
Jun 03 21:46:23 <Jackle> yeah spotify, im thinking about getting a premium subscription if the app is good enough
Jun 03 21:48:49 <Jackle> the nitdroid guys arnt responding
Jun 03 21:50:12 <DocScrutinizer> they're hiding, embarrassed ;-P
Jun 03 21:51:50 <ThreeM> maybe they host there mails on sony servers ;)
Jun 03 21:58:28 <Jackle> nope not a peep on #nitdroid
Jun 03 22:03:07 <DocScrutinizer> well, only 38 peeps there ;-)
Jun 03 22:03:48 <DocScrutinizer> odds are you'd have to wait a bit til sb answers anyway
Jun 03 22:05:12 <DocScrutinizer> I'd think even the SHR-on-N900 community aka #openmoko-* is more vivid than nitdroid
Jun 03 22:05:30 <MohammadAG> #nitdroid was quite alive in the days
Jun 03 22:08:47 <Macer> wtf is a .cbr file?
Jun 03 22:09:04 <SpeedEvil> Constant bitrate?
Jun 03 22:09:18 <SpeedEvil> canadian bacon roll?
Jun 03 22:10:41 <Macer> comic book reader
Jun 03 22:10:44 <Macer> i think
Jun 03 22:10:45 <Macer> ugh
Jun 03 22:12:23 <Jackle> has nitdroid development stopped then?
Jun 03 22:12:56 * SpeedEvil points at topic.
Jun 03 22:13:16 <SpeedEvil> Actually - it fails to mention ##nitrdorut
Jun 03 22:13:19 <SpeedEvil> #nitdroid
Jun 03 22:13:24 <SpeedEvil> ##nitdroid even
Jun 03 22:13:26 * SpeedEvil sighs
Jun 03 22:13:52 <MohammadAG> drop the second #
Jun 03 22:16:17 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: it also doesn't mention #ubuntu ;-)
Jun 03 22:16:18 <GeneralAntilles> Holy shit these are good strawberries.
Jun 03 22:16:52 <Jackle> Mohammad AG could you help me? if I was to install nitdroid n12 on my emmc then start my n900 with the keyboard closed what would happen? basicly I want to have nitdroid available but dont want a boot menu everytime I start my n900
Jun 03 22:17:17 * DocScrutinizer cackles
Jun 03 22:21:25 <MohammadAG> Jackle, no idea, haven't touched nitdroid since last summer
Jun 03 22:22:20 <DocScrutinizer> (northern hemisphere)
Jun 03 22:23:32 <Jackle> nevermind im off to bed now bye bye
Jun 03 23:50:14 <lcukabc> ping
Jun 03 23:56:04 <vldcnst> pong
Jun 03 23:56:09 <pronto> syn
Jun 03 23:56:16 <vldcnst> ack
Jun 03 23:56:24 <pronto> fin
Jun 03 23:56:33 <vldcnst> :/
Jun 04 00:42:53 <Termana> good morning
Jun 04 01:25:29 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, they're talking about your app: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1021955
Jun 04 01:25:47 <DocScrutinizer> my app?
Jun 04 01:28:01 <balrog-k1n> hi there, i've added a bunch of markers in Mappero / maemo-mapper. how do i save them to a gpx now?
Jun 04 01:33:31 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: thanks
Jun 04 01:50:12 <balrog-k1n> hmm, i added a new Mark with "insert mark..." and now it appears in a <desc> element in the gpx
Jun 04 01:50:33 <balrog-k1n> so what happened to all the earlier marks i added?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jun 04 02:59:56 2011