**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jun 22 02:59:57 2011 Jun 22 03:00:35 might be related to my ignorance about /. in general Jun 22 03:00:56 nowadays I'm just a luerker there Jun 22 03:01:11 I may post something to it twice a year now Jun 22 03:02:42 so even the N9 rumble went down now? Jun 22 03:02:46 here Jun 22 03:04:07 I'm pondering since 12h to add a "YES, WE HEARD..." to the topic, anticipating the late excited ones Jun 22 03:04:18 maybe not needed Jun 22 03:04:54 * SpeedEvil wonders why his net will occasionally die till he traceroutes something. (3g) Jun 22 03:05:19 NAT Jun 22 03:05:54 plus maybe traffic shaper Jun 22 03:06:06 QoS/ToS Jun 22 03:06:15 who knows Jun 22 03:07:18 yeah Jun 22 03:07:33 maybe winP7 or spyPhone do traceroutes frequently, so they tried some weird optimization? Jun 22 03:07:33 IRC freezes, and if I notice in the 2 mins before timeout - traceroute brings it back Jun 22 03:08:35 wow so nokia is seriously releasing an N950? Jun 22 03:09:00 huh Jun 22 03:09:01 no Jun 22 03:09:11 last i heard its only being released to registered nokia developers Jun 22 03:09:13 http://www.slashgear.com/nokia-n950-confirmed-for-meego-devs-4-inch-qwerty-slider-21160505/ Jun 22 03:09:17 I wonder why my N900 falls outa my router's ARP table every now and then Jun 22 03:09:25 and 250 devices to meego open source developers Jun 22 03:09:30 Macer, read the article Jun 22 03:09:40 i did Jun 22 03:10:06 it mentions that it has no support or warranty Jun 22 03:10:13 and that its for developers Jun 22 03:10:38 see http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/MeeGo/#article2 Jun 22 03:10:43 it says "This is definately one for developers..." Jun 22 03:10:44 :) Jun 22 03:10:45 and that they are short on devices, and so there are only 250 for meego Jun 22 03:10:50 "To aid the speedy development of apps for the Nokia N9 smartphone, Nokia has produced a limited number of developer phones, the Nokia N950 phone. This phone isn't available for purchase and can only be obtained through selected developer programs, such as Nokia Developer LaunchPad." Jun 22 03:10:57 only 250 N950s? :) wow Jun 22 03:11:05 only 250 N950s given to Meego developers Jun 22 03:11:09 open source meego developers Jun 22 03:11:19 corporate and professional developers obviously get higher priority Jun 22 03:11:25 and a larger amount of devices released Jun 22 03:11:40 so is the N9 supposed to be the mainstream meego phone Jun 22 03:11:41 ? Jun 22 03:11:44 but basically they're just short on devices Jun 22 03:11:45 yes Jun 22 03:11:47 period Jun 22 03:11:52 DocScrutinizer: sounds like it ;) Jun 22 03:11:58 the N9 is the commercial device Jun 22 03:12:02 that anyone can buy Jun 22 03:12:05 does the n9 have a qwerty? Jun 22 03:12:10 no Jun 22 03:12:20 omg fail Jun 22 03:12:30 duct tape a bluetooth keyboard to it Jun 22 03:12:38 i bet the bt keyboard won't even work Jun 22 03:12:40 :) Jun 22 03:12:56 im sure it will Jun 22 03:12:58 "this is NOT a computer, this is a fsckng fake iPhone" Jun 22 03:13:07 try to fit an iphone sliding keyboard case on it Jun 22 03:13:07 DocScrutinizer: sounds like it Jun 22 03:13:08 hahaha Jun 22 03:13:09 it may work Jun 22 03:13:12 not well Jun 22 03:13:13 but it may Jun 22 03:13:21 n900 4 life it seems Jun 22 03:13:21 I'd call it an iphone without the restrictions Jun 22 03:13:26 the N9 has the same dimensions as an iphone 4 Jun 22 03:13:26 which is pretty exciting Jun 22 03:13:27 i hate iphones and android phones Jun 22 03:13:32 http://compare.ebay.com/like/150613381922?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar Jun 22 03:13:49 i would love to get my hands on an n950 but that isn't being realistic Jun 22 03:13:55 i will stick with my n900 :) Jun 22 03:13:55 I may get one Jun 22 03:14:01 i signed up through my company Jun 22 03:14:16 600MHz vs 1GHz Jun 22 03:14:26 i can deal with the 40% less cpu speed haha Jun 22 03:14:34 If I'd want such class of device, honestly I'd go for the original, not for the 3rd clone Jun 22 03:14:36 256mb of ram vs 1gb Jun 22 03:14:48 resistive single-touch screen vs capacitive multitouch Jun 22 03:14:48 here's the deal Jun 22 03:14:52 if the N9 sells Jun 22 03:15:01 Choom: is it REAL 1GB? :) Jun 22 03:15:02 the meego team @ nokia can push their bosses to give them more money Jun 22 03:15:06 or n900 swapped 1GB? Jun 22 03:15:11 to push out more Meego devices Jun 22 03:15:20 but for now, the N9 is to appeal to the masses Jun 22 03:15:23 meh. i will wait and watch Jun 22 03:15:25 to show Nokia that meego CAN thrive Jun 22 03:15:27 and it CAN sell Jun 22 03:15:31 and it WILL work Jun 22 03:15:35 i doubt that anything will come from it :) Jun 22 03:15:46 especially after they start selling winmob phones to corporate offices Jun 22 03:15:53 with exchange as a selling point Jun 22 03:15:55 a phone will come from it, which quite frankly, is all I want Jun 22 03:16:06 1 phone that will be old in a year Jun 22 03:16:08 Macer, it's 1GB of physical RAM Jun 22 03:16:17 with 16 or 64GB of internal storage Jun 22 03:16:21 my n900 is old too Jun 22 03:16:31 and that's not what bothers me about it Jun 22 03:16:40 you know, I looked at that ebay link Jun 22 03:16:44 and it looks kinda cool Jun 22 03:16:49 i'd dig an N9 version of that Jun 22 03:16:55 even if I do get an N950 Jun 22 03:16:56 I have 18 n900s stored at -270C, in a vacuum. Jun 22 03:16:57 Sazpaimon_: that's gambling high with a poor hand Jun 22 03:17:00 Muhahahahahah! Jun 22 03:17:12 DocScrutinizer, what Jun 22 03:17:36 putting all your eggs in the N9-must-sell basket Jun 22 03:17:51 well, obviously the meego team had no choice Jun 22 03:17:56 their budget was shrinking Jun 22 03:18:17 seriously I don't care whether it sells or not Jun 22 03:18:21 so long as I can buy one Jun 22 03:18:29 they couldnt convince nokia to give them enough money to produce, promote, and support more than 1 device Jun 22 03:18:51 remember, each device needs to be supported by nokia through warranties, and employees need to be trained Jun 22 03:19:49 so the N9 is nokia telling the meego guys "Okay, let's see what you've got" Jun 22 03:20:08 so they damn sure better came up with a N900-i first Jun 22 03:20:18 why Jun 22 03:20:27 an N900-type device doesn't appeal to the mass market Jun 22 03:20:30 it just doesn't Jun 22 03:20:45 no training, very little risk, and it would kick ass Jun 22 03:20:48 they need a device that can appeal to the masses, so they can use the sales figures to their advantage Jun 22 03:21:11 it would kick ass to you and mee Jun 22 03:21:18 Sazpaimon_: silly stupid thinking, I commented on it earlier Jun 22 03:21:37 I'm not saying it's smart Jun 22 03:21:40 that doesn't make a lot of sense Jun 22 03:21:43 but it is what it is Jun 22 03:21:58 03:14 < Sazpaimon_> even if I do get an N950 Jun 22 03:22:01 you're gonna send it to me. Jun 22 03:22:05 shut up trollfree Jun 22 03:22:06 get out Jun 22 03:22:12 getoutfrog.gif Jun 22 03:22:19 guys, moofree is a troll Jun 22 03:22:20 [2011-06-21 17:50:13] ( "Screw the guys we already have, we want other people!" ) BUT... but, there are SO MANY out there that haven't bought our product, and SO FEW here that are happy and and more of what we got! let's just bin it, and start something better, for the masses out there [2011-06-21 17:52:45] ... "and first of all let's see what is the stuff *most* people use, then we'll Jun 22 03:22:22 try to outperform Aplle and Google on their own playground. Forget about those linux nerds" Jun 22 03:22:25 ask franz_ Jun 22 03:22:28 he knows Jun 22 03:22:36 franz_, look who followed us here Jun 22 03:22:39 franz is an even bigger troll :\ Jun 22 03:23:04 i don't think #maemo wants to hear about our nonsense politics kthx Jun 22 03:23:12 s/and and/and want/ Jun 22 03:23:36 stop taking it so personally Jun 22 03:23:45 I'm sure the meego guys want to release an N950 for the masses Jun 22 03:23:58 that does not compute Jun 22 03:24:17 but they need to convince nokia that it's worth their money to run with meego in the long run Jun 22 03:24:56 the people they should convince are the PR guys to make promises of continuity Jun 22 03:25:18 they've alredy out-PRed the N9 compared to the N900 Jun 22 03:25:23 (about the N9, of course, I don't care about anything similar to the N900) Jun 22 03:25:24 and it's only been a day Jun 22 03:25:35 pr guy would just quit RIIIGHT before they cancel all those promises Jun 22 03:26:01 but like I said, you guys shouldnt take it so personally Jun 22 03:26:02 Nokia has problems with producing N950 in volumes for sale Jun 22 03:26:16 I wonder idly about how screen protectors work for curved screens Jun 22 03:26:20 I don't Jun 22 03:26:33 I'm quite excited about the N9 Jun 22 03:26:37 obviously they intended to sell it first, then N9. Otherwise it wouldn't be ready for use as a devel device for N9 Jun 22 03:26:40 it's exactly what I wanted Jun 22 03:26:41 yeah the problem is they aren't convinced it's worth mass producing a device in an unpopular form factor with an OS that hasn't been tested in the mass market Jun 22 03:26:59 chicken and egg problem Jun 22 03:27:02 complete with a capacitive screen and a compass Jun 22 03:27:25 we don't know for sure *why* the N950 didn't get mass produced, but that's my theory Jun 22 03:27:29 nokia doesn't want to risk its cancellation of meego Jun 22 03:27:40 "It might succeed if we actually tried to make it succeed!" Jun 22 03:28:01 the N9 is nokia trying to make meego succeed Jun 22 03:28:25 lol Jun 22 03:28:30 yes, it's not going to be popular with us Jun 22 03:28:39 but what about "the other billion"? Jun 22 03:29:04 pretty sad if you ask me Jun 22 03:29:12 I've actually seen iphone users get aroused about the N9 today Jun 22 03:29:25 oh well, the M9 will be nice Jun 22 03:29:27 Sazpaimon_: BS, didn't you listen? Nokia got problems with CE cert for N950, or sth. Also with production yield or similar Jun 22 03:29:31 (microsoft n9 lol) Jun 22 03:29:51 DocScrutinizer, elaborate Jun 22 03:30:23 are you saying the N950 had a hardware issue? Jun 22 03:30:27 if it didn't pass electrical certifications, they wouldn't be able to send it out to developers Jun 22 03:30:33 yes Jun 22 03:30:47 well that doesn't really change my theory Jun 22 03:30:56 moofree: sure about that? Jun 22 03:31:07 was the n900 really popular in the US? :) Jun 22 03:31:14 i wonder how many they sold here. Jun 22 03:31:16 depends on the country Jun 22 03:31:31 and which electrical certifications it might have not passed or what have you Jun 22 03:31:45 but yeah, link to where you heard that Jun 22 03:31:48 they came to a crossroads during development: "Do we spend all our money fixing this device that may not be popular in the long run, or do we dedicate our time to a form factor that has a better chance of thriving in today's market?" Jun 22 03:32:14 I'm glad they chose the latter then Jun 22 03:32:17 if that's the case Jun 22 03:32:39 you act as if being a typical generic slab phone is a guarantee of success Jun 22 03:32:48 I'm not saying that Jun 22 03:32:53 it surely increases the chances Jun 22 03:33:01 you dunno nuttin about what really happened, could be everything from soldering problems in fab to "plotitcal" issues with some cert authorities. And there can be arbitrary number of ways dealing with this for a limited number of devices that don't need to earn money Jun 22 03:33:06 Suddenly got noisy in here. Jun 22 03:33:06 as I said earlier, I've seen iphone users get excited about the N9 today Jun 22 03:33:20 I'm saying a slate phone has a much better opportunity to succed than a qwerty phone Jun 22 03:33:33 plain and simple Jun 22 03:33:50 it's a proven form factor that works Jun 22 03:34:20 and isn't that what we all want in the end? For meego to succeed? Jun 22 03:34:34 Sazpaimon_: typically that's not how business works in hw manufacturing Jun 22 03:35:11 quite frankly, all I want in the end is a company that develops hardware that I like Jun 22 03:35:32 all i wanted was a keyboard Jun 22 03:35:37 and nokia seems to be delivering as far as I'm concerned Jun 22 03:36:02 Sazpaimon_, no, I want something I want to buy and own. :P Jun 22 03:36:07 Sazpaimon_: you start to sound like a troll Jun 22 03:36:17 For as much as Nokia loves shipping multiple device formfactors Jun 22 03:36:25 I wish they'd do it with some of their Linux offerings. Jun 22 03:36:36 GeneralAntilles: pretty much Jun 22 03:36:47 they have how many thousands of phones on the market? Jun 22 03:36:55 GeneralAntilles: they'll eventually get their shit sorted with N950 Jun 22 03:37:03 n9 with keyboard would be nice :\ Jun 22 03:37:05 Hope so Jun 22 03:37:14 Wish Elop hadn't stabbed MeeGo in the gut. Jun 22 03:37:15 you don't think they developed that device just for 250 developers, do you? Jun 22 03:37:21 Man-with-no-arms Jun 22 03:38:19 assuming the n9 is a success, maybe there'll be a meego device i'll want to get in the future, but if it falls to LG or HTC to make a meego phone with a keyboard... i'm giving up hope on the platform in general Jun 22 03:38:20 GeneralAntilles, yeah with symbian, an OS they develop in house and they alreayd make returns on Jun 22 03:39:00 depends what intel does i guess :/ Jun 22 03:39:28 right now I see the N9 as Nokia dipping their toes in the Meego waters Jun 22 03:39:41 if they like how it sells, they'll probably jump in Jun 22 03:39:54 the N9 will sell. As much as the N900 sold. Jun 22 03:40:06 i just like how they're going to fragment their own marketplace Jun 22 03:40:07 yet again Jun 22 03:40:09 they need PR to promise continuity Jun 22 03:40:13 otherwise it won't sell Jun 22 03:40:24 moofree, what, with WP7? Jun 22 03:40:25 OTOH there's that new policy which says there will be no more meego devices AIUI Jun 22 03:40:33 no one promised continuity on the N900. All they said was the there'll be another device after it Jun 22 03:40:41 the mass market depends on the availability of developers Jun 22 03:40:43 yeah between windows phone and meego (and whatever's left over from symbian) Jun 22 03:40:50 anidel_: incorrect Jun 22 03:41:03 symbian and meego apps can be ported to one another easily Jun 22 03:41:06 if they use qt Jun 22 03:41:10 DocScrutinizer: partially. It was always touted as 4 out of 5 Jun 22 03:41:12 anidel_: they said their future top notch smartphones all will have maemo/meego Jun 22 03:41:45 what about qt on windows phone 7? Jun 22 03:41:51 not gonna happen Jun 22 03:41:52 DocScrutinizer: they didn't lie at that time. The change happened afterwards, though Jun 22 03:41:56 anidel_: and that race 1 to 5 wasn't a race to grave Jun 22 03:41:57 yep Jun 22 03:41:59 DocScrutinizer: they did? Jun 22 03:42:01 not happening. Jun 22 03:42:19 Choom: sure Jun 22 03:42:41 oh you mean before wp7 Jun 22 03:42:51 yes, obviously Jun 22 03:43:07 I knew it was a test to find an alternative to Symbian. I knew it would succeed and it did. I didn't know Elop would come along Jun 22 03:44:42 I never expected the N900 to succeed Jun 22 03:44:48 we need a hit man to take elop out Jun 22 03:44:50 and neither were the reviewers back when it was launched Jun 22 03:44:51 neither did nokia Jun 22 03:44:57 Trizt: that's illegal! Jun 22 03:45:21 moofree; it's the microsoft way ;) Jun 22 03:45:39 the N900 launched with a specific niche in mind Jun 22 03:45:42 almost 2500 comments on the N9 hands on posting on engadget Jun 22 03:45:52 I don't think they were testing the waters for anything Jun 22 03:45:56 The path to WP7 has been chosen . At least they didn't kill MeeGo..they just want to see how it'll be accepted..hopefully if it sells, Nokia may reconsider (in the long term though) Jun 22 03:46:03 yeah, nokia got taken by surprise when N900 sales went thru the roof Jun 22 03:46:10 I do, however, believe that the N9 is testing the waters Jun 22 03:46:21 see, I'm not alone here Jun 22 03:46:28 but they need to work with PR as well in order to make developers believe that there is continuity after all Jun 22 03:46:49 most popular comment on the N9 posting on engadget: "Kinda makes you wonder why Nokia needs WP7...." Jun 22 03:46:54 +542 Jun 22 03:47:36 one of the next most popular, with +143: Jun 22 03:47:39 "( . ) ( . ) These" Jun 22 03:47:40 yes Jun 22 03:47:41 Nokia needed WP7, to me, because developers will develop for it. That's for sure. Not that much for MeeGo. At least from their point of view Jun 22 03:48:04 they need to make developers at least believe that, if the phone is a success, more will come Jun 22 03:49:47 they kicked devels' balls once too often Jun 22 03:50:14 a thing straight from that friggin mega deja-vu with OM Jun 22 03:50:28 I think developers on all platforms got balls kicked once too often... Jun 22 03:50:38 iOS, Android, Windows etc... Jun 22 03:51:22 I bet SpeedEvil could contribute some more elaborated comments on it Jun 22 03:51:35 anidel_; just add mono and you have those two developers who would developers for wp7 developing for which ever platform Jun 22 03:51:56 Trizt: X-D indeed Jun 22 03:52:15 maemo got mono AFAIK ;-P Jun 22 03:52:47 * SpeedEvil quacks. Jun 22 03:53:32 something that would give a better boost would to have alien dalvik preinstalled on the n9 Jun 22 03:53:33 Sazpaimon_: Dual control sticks! :) Jun 22 03:54:00 * SpeedEvil wonders if alien dalvik could ever have android market. Jun 22 03:54:04 Trizt: yup Jun 22 03:57:17 SpeedEvil, is the market a dalvik app? Jun 22 03:57:39 alien dalvik is just dalvik vm ported to a different linker Jun 22 03:58:14 im sure someone dedicatd enough could do the same thig Jun 22 03:58:16 *thing Jun 22 03:59:27 I don't mean a hack. Jun 22 03:59:36 I mean an actual official market app. Jun 22 04:00:10 so do I Jun 22 04:00:30 if the market app is a dalvik executable program,it should work Jun 22 04:02:47 it also doesn't really matter in the end because myriad is apparently only marketing alien dalvik to OEMs Jun 22 04:02:56 and OEMs aren't biting Jun 22 04:03:43 how lucrative is the android market? Jun 22 04:03:54 do people actually buy stuff for android? Jun 22 04:04:21 seems like those I know with androids do buy Jun 22 04:04:39 most handsets use their carrier to pay for programs through the market Jun 22 04:05:26 like if you have a nokia E71x on AT&T, you can buy stuff off the ovi store and it'll charge your AT&T account Jun 22 04:06:52 I have this feeling (and I hope to be alone here) that the linux community does not care much about profit Jun 22 04:07:15 I mean I can easily see myself developing for profit for the wp7 / ios, but not for a linux device Jun 22 04:07:49 Choom, people seem to have the incorrect opinion that if you work with linux you should not expect profit Jun 22 04:07:58 and that you're working for the linux "community" Jun 22 04:08:00 Speakin gpersonally, I'm quite happy buying stuff for linux. Jun 22 04:08:03 not for "everyone else" Jun 22 04:08:07 I bought angry birds level pack. Jun 22 04:08:07 look at the price of some of the apps in ovi for n900, gives a feeling that some people do hope for profit for something not that usable Jun 22 04:08:13 I want to buy more angry birds levle.s Jun 22 04:08:14 and if this is a common feeling it's also quite distructive to marketplaces, because the profit is shared Jun 22 04:10:35 yes but then when one looks at the maemo repos, they're full of free apps Jun 22 04:10:52 some of which would most likely sell a lot on apple's app store Jun 22 04:12:14 this in turn drives the devs who wish to work for profit away from the platform, because the users end up expecting everything for free Jun 22 04:13:07 True. Jun 22 04:13:14 And regrettable to an extent. Jun 22 04:13:20 Choom; yeah, there are many good ones that people on android/apple would buy for top dollars, but it's the same for the desktop computers too but that don't make people to use linux (while on a phone it works as they don't know) Jun 22 04:13:51 http://media.tinhte.vn/photo/var/resizes/sonlazio/DSC_2201_095.jpg?m=1308684113 Jun 22 04:14:04 updates? on my nokia? Jun 22 04:15:03 LOL Jun 22 04:15:16 I want a purple / violet N9 Jun 22 04:16:24 I want an n950 with the same specs as N9 Jun 22 04:16:44 * SpeedEvil notes that that would be a n9. Jun 22 04:17:00 shey should have round corners too Jun 22 04:17:00 Trizt, N950 does have the same specs as the N9 Jun 22 04:17:03 well, almost the same Jun 22 04:17:07 okey n9 with slide out keyboard Jun 22 04:17:13 it has all the important specs Jun 22 04:17:22 same soc Jun 22 04:17:28 you can have an on-screen keyboard Jun 22 04:17:33 live with that :P Jun 22 04:17:41 Sazpaimon_; no nfc, not the same screen Jun 22 04:17:50 it's free Jun 22 04:17:51 deal with it Jun 22 04:18:05 Choom; it's not as good as a real one Jun 22 04:18:15 deal w/ it Jun 22 04:18:15 ask any iphone user who writes a lot Jun 22 04:18:40 whether they'd trade their thin iphones for something thicket with a physical keyboard? Jun 22 04:18:42 iphone users dont have swype Jun 22 04:18:44 they'd hate it Jun 22 04:18:44 * Trizt likes to complain Jun 22 04:18:48 N9 will have swype Jun 22 04:19:03 timew to get to work Jun 22 04:19:18 i dont see why people cant just use a bluetooth keyboard on their N9 Jun 22 04:19:19 swipe isn't that exciting to me, actually Jun 22 04:19:21 * SpeedEvil likes hw keyboard. Jun 22 04:19:37 I can use my n900 with eyes closed, with hwkbd Jun 22 04:19:48 if the N9 is popular, the chinese will probably make an N9 case with a sliding keyboard Jun 22 04:19:48 Or when paying attention to other stuff Jun 22 04:19:56 i would like to have an 950 :\ Jun 22 04:20:06 strohhalm, learn to develop Jun 22 04:20:10 or register an LLC Jun 22 04:20:13 it costs like $50 Jun 22 04:20:29 make a fake company LLC and register it with nokia as a developer account Jun 22 04:20:42 make up some fake project you're working on Jun 22 04:20:54 request an N950 Jun 22 04:20:55 done Jun 22 04:21:05 * DocScrutinizer wonders if Choom is way to much basing his notions about general situation on his own PoV and attitude Jun 22 04:21:18 I don't even like N900's physical keyboard much Jun 22 04:21:32 I love the N900's keyboard Jun 22 04:21:34 Sazpaimon_: nice idea Jun 22 04:21:40 i know I'llmiss it in the N9 Jun 22 04:21:46 epecially with IRC Jun 22 04:21:50 but I'll live Jun 22 04:21:53 for example, there's no blue shift key on the right side of the keyboard Jun 22 04:22:23 I don't even know where Esc is on the N900 Jun 22 04:22:26 the N950's keyboard is a vast improvement over the N900 Jun 22 04:22:33 fortunately, the terminal app has a virtual Esc key Jun 22 04:22:50 strohhalm, no reason why it wouldn't work Jun 22 04:23:04 then sell the N950 on ebay, make a few grand Jun 22 04:23:24 tell nokia one of your employees brought their kid in to work and stuck it in the blender Jun 22 04:23:31 i don't disargree Jun 22 04:23:56 if you want an N950 that bad I suggest you do that Jun 22 04:24:24 or just buy a bt keyboard and be happy with that Jun 22 04:24:28 Choom: I honestly can't see why you are here and seems own a N900 - you don't like N900 to have hw kbd, you don't appreciate the FOSS concept (otherwise you'd not argue it's a bad thing to have many free apps)... .oO(???) Jun 22 04:25:00 DocScrutinizer: I do actually appreciate the FOSS concept Jun 22 04:25:08 DocScrutinizer: however, it's not good for a market place Jun 22 04:25:10 foss must be something really tasty, soo much peaple like this O_o Jun 22 04:25:31 the free in FOSS doesnt mean free as in free beer Jun 22 04:25:39 it's free as in freedom Jun 22 04:25:42 ;) Jun 22 04:25:48 DocScrutinizer: and while the N900 has negative aspects, there's currently no competition for it, as far as I'm concerned Jun 22 04:25:59 meaning I have the freedom to profit off of my work Jun 22 04:26:06 DocScrutinizer: however I can't hide the fact that I'm pretty excited about the N9 Jun 22 04:26:08 and you have the freedom to share your work for free Jun 22 04:26:28 Choom: I'm happy to take the N900 off your hands if you no longer want it :) Jun 22 04:26:30 because, to me, it merges what I like about the N900 with what I envy from the iphone Jun 22 04:27:28 also its worth mentioning that Nokia's stock went up marginally since the N9 was announced Jun 22 04:27:44 like, 20 cents Jun 22 04:27:45 pabs3: once the N9 comes out I'll be more than happy to sell it to one of you cheap Jun 22 04:28:27 http://247wallst.com/2011/06/21/nokia-launches-windows-phone-into-smartphone-storms-with-aid-from-microsoft/ Jun 22 04:28:29 wow Jun 22 04:28:34 this article is so wrong Jun 22 04:28:44 apparently the N9 is a windows phone?! Jun 22 04:29:19 pabs3: that's assuming the N9 can actually deliver, otherwise I'll just default to the iphone 5 which should be out at that point Jun 22 04:29:40 buying an n9 will be like buying an amiga. Jun 22 04:30:03 and yes, they still make amigas, heh. Jun 22 04:30:25 ver, amigas have a hardware keyboard Jun 22 04:30:31 ROFL Jun 22 04:30:35 they don't come with a keyboard Jun 22 04:30:47 but they lack a capacitive touchscreen Jun 22 04:30:52 which, to me, is a lot more important Jun 22 04:30:58 And a compass! Jun 22 04:31:05 yeah i'm all about the 950 Jun 22 04:31:17 yeah amiga's virtual keyboard blows Jun 22 04:31:18 terrible business move for nokia, but very cool toy. Jun 22 04:31:23 i fail to see the comparison Jun 22 04:31:29 where's the ovi maps on my amiga Jun 22 04:31:37 because nobody uses amiga Jun 22 04:31:41 and nobody will be using meego Jun 22 04:31:59 I certainly will Jun 22 04:32:03 we'll see Jun 22 04:32:14 the market will respond Jun 22 04:32:41 I have this stupid dream of modifying duke nukem 3d to work with the accelerometer and a compass Jun 22 04:33:16 for awesome, 90s-style, virtual reality Jun 22 04:34:19 what's the estimated price for ebay n950? $1500? Jun 22 04:35:11 I've also been playing with the qt SDK and am loving the experience, unlike scratchbox.. Jun 22 04:35:16 opdf2: a visit from the police? Jun 22 04:35:16 I think you could sell it for at least that Jun 22 04:35:41 yes because its totally illegal to break nokia's NDA Jun 22 04:35:48 you'll get a visit from their lawyers Jun 22 04:35:49 not the cops Jun 22 04:36:23 those people are perfectly capable of breaking your legs Jun 22 04:36:24 :P Jun 22 04:36:26 too bad.. not that I would buy.. just wanna see the gobs of money people would pay for that thing Jun 22 04:36:42 just saying Jun 22 04:37:13 pay $50 for an LLC, get an N950 through their developer program, make a new ebay account, sell the N950 Jun 22 04:38:27 looks great though Jun 22 04:38:28 http://twitpic.com/5eslhw Jun 22 04:39:25 that little tab next to the A Jun 22 04:39:26 what is that Jun 22 04:39:36 is that supposed to be there the N9 text was supposd to be? Jun 22 04:40:22 also i hope they release a firmware update soon that lets you use portrait app launcher Jun 22 04:40:34 the fact that it doesnt do portrait when the keyboard is out is a little silly Jun 22 04:40:37 damn that n950 is pretty Jun 22 04:40:55 Sazpaimon_: considering the n900 be happy it does portrait at all :) Jun 22 04:41:07 i havent seen a qwerty phone that good in awhile Jun 22 04:41:22 opdf2, you haven't seen the E7? Jun 22 04:41:30 yeah that is good Jun 22 04:41:41 not enough great looking qwerty phones...boo Jun 22 04:42:02 i personally would miss the convex screen on an N950 Jun 22 04:42:14 the N9's screen just seems more natural Jun 22 04:42:22 especially when using jestures Jun 22 04:42:26 *gestures Jun 22 04:42:28 damn it's late Jun 22 04:43:12 i really hope i dont need to wait weeks for nokia to approve my developer application Jun 22 04:43:18 don't think I've ever tried a convex screen Jun 22 04:45:37 I hope it works better for drag/drop than iphone's Jun 22 05:20:30 $1500 would be worth it, if it came with warranty :) Jun 22 05:21:27 warranty not to be sued Jun 22 05:23:27 warranty that they'll resolder it when usb ports and components fall off the circuit board Jun 22 05:25:53 pretty? HAH! you'll get THAT: http://thenokiablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/nokia_n950_1.jpg for N950, actually Jun 22 05:26:32 hahaha Jun 22 05:26:37 i'll still take it just for the qwerty Jun 22 05:26:40 http://thenokiablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/nokia_n950_slide.jpg Jun 22 05:27:09 wow that is one fatass dude using it Jun 22 05:27:15 hehe, it was kinda funny to see pictures with the uglifier plastic on Jun 22 05:27:20 http://thenokiablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/nokia_n950_side.jpg Jun 22 05:28:01 this might be the actual case, not any "uglifier plastic on" Jun 22 05:28:15 tooling for case it expensive Jun 22 05:28:21 DocScrutinizer: well. i hope they make enough for the masses Jun 22 05:28:25 :/ Jun 22 05:28:34 not of that version for sure Jun 22 05:28:41 well.. any version Jun 22 05:28:50 i don't want a non qwerty n9 Jun 22 05:29:51 Macer: Nokia hasn't developed this N950 just to give out 250 to community developers - you bet they *want* to sell bilions of it Jun 22 05:30:23 they can sell at least a few thousands Jun 22 05:30:28 they just need to find a way it actually can get sold and earns money, and for sure they will happily sell to anybody Jun 22 05:30:33 they will probably mass produce them after people have all bought the n9 haha Jun 22 05:31:20 they for sure don't delay MP for concerns of canibalizing N9 Jun 22 05:31:52 canibalizing! hahaha Jun 22 05:32:01 the devices are too different for user profile, yet way too similar in technology Jun 22 05:32:23 there also is the possibility that the n900 meego team might get everything working :) Jun 22 05:32:35 (canibalizing) sorry for my marketing diction Jun 22 05:32:36 that would be nice too although the n950's better hardware would be nice to use Jun 22 05:33:12 n950 has worse hw than N9 Jun 22 05:33:21 way 'worse' Jun 22 05:33:22 but better hw than n900 Jun 22 05:33:35 pfft. the qwerty makes up for it lol Jun 22 05:33:37 a bit, yeah Jun 22 05:33:42 so anyone planning on reverse engineering things like the SGX OpenGL ES drivers? Jun 22 05:33:49 1GHz omap and 1GB physical ram? Jun 22 05:34:03 512MB RAM Jun 22 05:34:07 i would put the 3x more ram in the more than a bit category Jun 22 05:34:18 oh Jun 22 05:34:21 2x :) Jun 22 05:34:33 and a 40% bump in cpu clock speed Jun 22 05:34:33 that's on the n950 Jun 22 05:34:36 TFT LCD instead AMOLED Jun 22 05:34:37 you're on different tunes Jun 22 05:35:24 pabs3: hasn't happened in ~3 years, probably won't Jun 22 05:35:53 http://www.developer.nokia.com/dp?uri=http://sw.nokia.com/id/3744886f-69c1-4544-8ad3-72b352b4a832/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers_Release_Notes N950 specs Jun 22 05:35:58 pabs3: too much trouble with little return potential Jun 22 05:36:19 pabs3: everyone who gets near that code goes blind Jun 22 05:36:29 wmarone: seems like some part of that was done, see the end of http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:PowerVR_drivers Jun 22 05:36:41 is polycarbonate just a scientific way of saying plastic? :) Jun 22 05:37:24 wut, why is ruby1.8 non-free?? http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/non-free/r/ruby1.8/ Jun 22 05:37:42 and swig and speex and libogg and libjpeg Jun 22 05:38:10 Macer: Polycarbonate is a sort of plastic. Jun 22 05:38:11 strange enough they don't mention the 512MB RAM on N950 Jun 22 05:38:28 bt 4.0 vs bt 2.1EDR Jun 22 05:38:37 DocScrutinizer: that is because it does not have 512 Jun 22 05:38:58 some developer.nokia.com webpages said so IIRC Jun 22 05:39:12 Macer: It's used in bullet resistant glazing. Jun 22 05:40:13 pabs3: our speculations were about direct hw accelerations using DSP/GFX Jun 22 05:40:44 NB N9 claims 50h of continuous music playback Jun 22 05:40:54 in ruby? understandable for speex/jpeg/ogg though Jun 22 05:40:57 * Chinese input method is not supported in this Beta release Jun 22 05:41:06 haha.. good! keep the chinese out! Jun 22 05:41:43 ... Jun 22 05:42:44 Kaadlajk: well, internet tells me you *should* know better about RAM in N950 :-D Jun 22 05:43:05 so I'll update my wetware records about that factoid Jun 22 05:43:14 thanks Jun 22 05:44:32 so anything new? Jun 22 05:46:39 * DocScrutinizer for a moment mixed up digia with digium Jun 22 05:47:00 are there any flash images of the N950 available yet? Jun 22 05:47:00 and went "wut???" Jun 22 05:47:18 Choom: yes Jun 22 05:47:38 Choom: check yesterday's chanlog Jun 22 05:51:01 pabs3: really short of a good story about why ruby is non-free. BSD licence or sth? Jun 22 05:52:46 DocScrutinizer: in Debian it is in main, license looks like GPL | custom-license Jun 22 05:53:24 NFC Jun 22 05:54:07 isn't there some sort of rationale in a README somewhere up-path non-free? Jun 22 05:54:47 you'd think Nokia would like to explain why this isn't a GPL violation Jun 22 05:55:19 I looked at libjpeg and there wasn't any explanation why it was in non-free Jun 22 05:55:29 didn't look at the others yet Jun 22 05:55:52 perhaps I should mail the folks listed in the changelog.Debian.gz :) Jun 22 05:55:58 libjpeg optimizations are oss'ed to libjpeg-turbo, afaik Jun 22 05:56:06 I guess my freind Harald Welte has Nokia under close scrutination since quite some time, and they know about that Jun 22 05:56:54 moo sts Jun 22 05:57:04 moo Jun 22 05:57:13 why ruby is non-free, i have no idea why :) Jun 22 05:57:29 maybe it used to be like that when they grabbed it Jun 22 05:57:34 in debian sections Jun 22 05:57:40 weird, so they sent their changes to libjpeg-turbo but aren't using libjpeg-turbo? Jun 22 05:57:45 * DocScrutinizer shrugs Jun 22 05:57:54 not my domain really Jun 22 05:58:39 I'm EE, in my world SW devels are always vlose to pathological weird Jun 22 05:58:48 ;-D Jun 22 05:58:52 :) Jun 22 05:59:45 * pabs3 considers applying for the N950 dev program with "I want to find GPL violations in Nokia's devices", that would be a fun troll Jun 22 06:00:13 :) Jun 22 06:00:27 lol Jun 22 06:00:44 'Researching possible violations of patents held by Apple' Jun 22 06:01:06 wonder if Nokia can be convinced to opensource the N900's HW as a dying gasp action Jun 22 06:01:14 reminds me on that awesome tmo thread, where they suggested to convince Nokia to disclose bits by accusing them of GPL violations :-P Jun 22 06:01:35 got a link? sounds hilarious Jun 22 06:01:53 nah, I rarely keep such links Jun 22 06:02:50 recent thread, with lots of abill_uk, and I think also Stskeeps, subject along the line "Nokia please disclose closed bits! NOW, REALLY!" Jun 22 06:03:25 probably closed meanwhile, by texrat Jun 22 06:04:12 been the running gag and WTF-LOL of the week here in IRC Jun 22 06:05:22 Stskeeps should still remember, I think it's been the last nail to the coffin he put tmo in Jun 22 06:06:01 probably this? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=73419 Jun 22 06:06:26 yup Jun 22 06:11:18 closed by chemist :-) Jun 22 06:12:41 umm, did I notice konttori around? Jun 22 06:12:57 ~seen konttori_home Jun 22 06:13:05 konttori_home <~konttori@80-186-91-32.elisa-mobile.fi> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 8h 45m 27s ago, saying: 'night now all'. Jun 22 06:14:50 ** konttori_home has joined #maemo 07:38 Jun 22 06:14:57 infobot: useless Jun 22 06:14:58 * infobot starts crying and hides from docscrutinizer in the darkest corner of the room. :( Jun 22 06:17:42 ~botsnack Jun 22 06:17:42 DocScrutinizer: aw, gee Jun 22 06:17:59 ~lart timriker Jun 22 06:17:59 * infobot accelerates a free AOL cd to 50,000 rpm and lets timriker feel it Jun 22 06:18:45 ~seen ^24seven Jun 22 06:18:47 ^24seven is currently on #maemo, last said: 'yup :P'. Jun 22 06:18:55 err Jun 22 06:19:04 * DocScrutinizer <<-- idiot Jun 22 06:20:08 ~seen divan Jun 22 06:20:08 divan <~divan@89.209.253.77> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 7h 49m 45s ago, saying: 'Aranel, 'required hacks' is ok for us :)'. Jun 22 06:20:47 seen == posted sth - for her, humm Jun 22 06:21:45 ~seen cyborg-one Jun 22 06:21:46 DocScrutinizer: i haven't seen 'cyborg-one' Jun 22 06:21:54 thought as much Jun 22 06:25:04 @N950-owners: as soon as NDA gets moot, I'd appreciate a pastebin of >>lsof|grep bme Jun 22 06:26:36 DocScrutinizer: I've noticed that with a lot of IRC bots... I wonder why :/ The only thing I can think is if they are /away and they split/rejoin or something like that, you don't want the join msg triggering events as a "seen". Jun 22 06:27:03 anybody knows if there are N950 available on developer.nokia.com remote device access program? Jun 22 06:28:19 DocScrutinizer: i'd be surprised to see a NDA Jun 22 06:30:02 well, those who have a N950 now are reluctant to post anything resulting from any cmd on that device/OS yet. I can accept that, and wouldn't expect anything else, unless somebody really feels confident with what's ok and what's not regarding this Jun 22 06:30:30 see achipa's reaction yesterday when I asked for pastebin of a bootlog Jun 22 06:30:43 DocScrutinizer: well, that's because they're on protos which are probably earlier than what developers get Jun 22 06:30:56 :shrug: Jun 22 06:31:15 wouldn't hurt, and if it did then it hurts me, not them ;-) Jun 22 06:31:46 or did I miss the point? Jun 22 06:31:59 kinda Jun 22 06:32:43 DocScrutinizer: looks like only N900 on http://apu.ndhub.net/devices Jun 22 06:32:44 well, probably my "when NDA gets moot" was a bit too brash once more Jun 22 06:33:25 I'd be astonished if those with hw weren't asked to sign _some_ sort of NDA. Jun 22 06:33:25 I meant to say "whenever you start to feel like it was opportune" Jun 22 06:33:43 SpeedEvil: well, if it's the developer device programme, then i would guess not Jun 22 06:33:53 SpeedEvil: i mean, in amsterdam it was just a loan agreement Jun 22 06:34:00 you actually even acknowledge some NDA when applying for developers.nokia.com Jun 22 06:34:09 Stskeeps: Oh - not for those Jun 22 06:34:19 Stskeeps: At that point the device was known about. Jun 22 06:34:37 I mean the people who have had the n950/n9 for some time Jun 22 06:35:14 for sure had reason to keep the fact unpublished Jun 22 06:36:07 and achipa said "let's wait until the devel devs ship - rules are rules" OWTTE Jun 22 06:36:39 he even never admitted he actually has a N9(50) Jun 22 06:36:59 just to the extent of "let's assume I might have one" Jun 22 06:37:36 I bet he doesn't do that to give him a mystery look Jun 22 06:39:28 I know of other N9/50 owners that never even mentioned that little hint about the fact they did Jun 22 06:41:12 yeah they kept it hush hush Jun 22 06:41:21 in OM the guidelines about what might go public and what must not were absolutely cryptic, and even changed frequently. I expect the situation to be similar on all companies Jun 22 06:42:51 refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect Jun 22 06:48:23 heh and nokia is creat at the vaporware part of it Jun 22 06:48:31 *great Jun 22 06:50:04 atleast they didnt give a date this time Jun 22 06:56:10 looked at the photos of the new devices from Prauge, the n95p dont seem to be much thicker than the n9 Jun 22 06:56:43 the main mantra at OM always been "Don't talk about properties of future products, not even you know if the product spec will stay as they are now, until rollout" Jun 22 06:57:07 DocScrutinizer: OM? Jun 22 06:57:14 ~ DocScrutinizer51 Jun 22 06:57:17 ~ DocScrutinizer Jun 22 06:57:17 extra, extra, read all about it, docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko Jun 22 06:57:51 oh right Jun 22 06:58:34 DocScrutinizer: and that's how it went, everyone thought the N950 would come out as the n9 and then it didn't... Jun 22 06:58:59 yup Jun 22 06:59:29 well, they had a bunch of them in the closet so instead of thrashing them they offer them as developer program Jun 22 07:00:03 probably close to the truth :-) Jun 22 07:01:09 almost bought an OM back then Jun 22 07:03:13 and there is working turn by turn navigation in n9 Jun 22 07:03:16 DocScrutinizer: you still working there? last I saw they were making a device running Windows Jun 22 07:03:17 cool Jun 22 07:03:46 pabs3: OM is basically out of business and dead Jun 22 07:04:23 DocScrutinizer: oh :( did you move on to Qi Hardware then? Jun 22 07:04:36 pabs3: I never seen any windows devices from them though. Maybe you refer to that "TV" Jun 22 07:04:49 DocScrutinizer: I refer to frm.fm Jun 22 07:05:00 pabs3: Qi is a non-profit company for now Jun 22 07:05:37 NFC how they make a living, but for sure not with working for Qi Jun 22 07:05:41 aka sharism Jun 22 07:05:55 well, trolltech made money on Qt Jun 22 07:06:00 I'm loosely associated to them still Jun 22 07:06:02 so i don't see a problem there Jun 22 07:09:15 jacekowski: ? Jun 22 07:09:22 pabs3 framed is cool Jun 22 07:10:02 loft306: agreed, shame about the OS tho :) Jun 22 07:10:10 ? Jun 22 07:10:17 winders? Jun 22 07:11:46 this makus he want to hack one together Jun 22 07:11:55 geez Jun 22 07:12:02 *makes me Jun 22 07:12:55 loft306: Windows 7, yeah Jun 22 07:13:06 *burrp* Jun 22 07:13:28 anyway openmoko.com is NOT openmoko.org Jun 22 07:13:56 * loft306 looks at his nv running linux that he couldnt get lg to send the source for Jun 22 07:14:06 *tv Jun 22 07:14:43 how do you know it's linux? Jun 22 07:15:31 therle is a paragraph in the manual on how to get the linux source for it Jun 22 07:15:38 oooh Jun 22 07:15:54 * DocScrutinizer digs for the manual of his LG32 Jun 22 07:16:57 but i hear tha t they dont send the complete source if they send anything... they send just the bits they added and let you figure out where they go... but like i said i didnt get anything so i cant confirm Jun 22 07:17:47 * DocScrutinizer considers unpacking/dissecting the firmware update blob.bin he got for LG32 Jun 22 07:17:58 hehehe Jun 22 07:18:10 loft306: sic the SFLC or gpl-violations.org onto them Jun 22 07:18:34 aka Harald Welte Jun 22 07:18:59 (btw co-founder of OM, just if you didn't know) Jun 22 07:19:14 (also extremely awesome) Jun 22 07:19:43 awww geez Jun 22 07:21:05 small world Jun 22 07:22:19 * DocScrutinizer yawns while sigterm'ing a ns-plugin-viewer eating 50% aka 1 core of laptop's CPU since hours Jun 22 07:23:10 i gotso many toys tere that i can find nso time to play with any of them Jun 22 07:23:16 *no Jun 22 07:31:39 my pillows calling nn Jun 22 07:33:58 http://felipec.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/my-disagreement-with-elop-on-meego/ Jun 22 08:05:34 Morning Jun 22 08:11:12 http://wiki.meego.com/Documentation_for_pyside-assistant Jun 22 08:11:14 oups Jun 22 08:14:48 Nice: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1035259&postcount=370 Jun 22 08:21:20 Khertan: hi there Jun 22 08:21:53 harmattan page on nokia developper wiki are painful to read Jun 22 08:22:34 Khertan: I now use this: https://code.google.com/p/switch-profile-by-meeting/source/browse/trunk/src/makeSwitch.py Jun 22 08:32:06 does anyone know a nice tool to read xml? Jun 22 08:32:33 libxml? Jun 22 08:33:04 cat ? Jun 22 08:34:13 there are some perl tools for it Jun 22 08:34:24 xml-twig Jun 22 08:43:03 cloudyLights: xsltproc Jun 22 08:44:22 QtXml Jun 22 08:58:34 XMLMaker - just kidding Jun 22 09:01:37 * haj loves the right click -> reinstall function in Parallels Virtual Automation ... Jun 22 09:01:42 for windows servers... ;) Jun 22 09:23:59 does the cssu update touch anything of my boot setup? Jun 22 09:24:19 if it updates the relevant packages yes Jun 22 09:24:36 but that depends on the update Jun 22 09:26:05 ruskie: I am not using cssu so far, and have mb (I know). I wouldn't like the to get into a state where I can't use backupmenu to switch back Jun 22 09:35:50 Looking at the N9, I want more icons in the quick launch. 8 icons would be perfect. Jun 22 09:39:46 good morning Jun 22 09:42:45 Termana, \o Jun 22 09:46:16 cloudyLights: hi ! Jun 22 09:47:02 cloudyLights: the future way to package python apps : http://wiki.meego.com/Documentation_for_pyside-assistant Jun 22 09:49:27 Khertan: rpm and deb support? Jun 22 09:50:58 X-Fade: as it s a distutils extension, Distutils can build rpm too Jun 22 09:51:29 Khertan: Well the only thing you need to create is .dsc debian.tar.gz and spec. Jun 22 09:51:35 X-Fade: i was using sdist_maemo ... so i use the same distutils script to build rpm and deb Jun 22 09:52:13 X-Fade: yep but this way using distutils you can also build .exe, register to pypi Jun 22 09:52:28 it s the standard python tools to build python package Jun 22 09:52:37 and so one packaging tool for all Jun 22 09:52:54 http://khertan.net/python_sdist_maemo Jun 22 09:53:13 Khertan: Yes, but make sure that it creates source packages too. As the only way for people to actually publish their app is by providing the source package. Jun 22 09:53:22 No binary distribution. Jun 22 09:54:15 X-Fade: yep ... i didn't know well how pyside-assistant works ... but if it didn't build source packages ... i ll probably add this option to it, or continue sdist_maemo development Jun 22 09:55:45 Khertan: It would rock if you can just package your app, so that you can submit it to an obs for instance. Jun 22 09:56:01 X-Fade: i'm working on it :) Jun 22 09:56:21 X-Fade: at least for creating debian package it s already working for obs Jun 22 09:56:27 And if you have deb and rpm at the same time, then people can develop for meego and harmattan at the same time. Jun 22 09:56:37 X-Fade: now ... rpm at the same time will be better Jun 22 09:56:53 X-Fade: this is my goal :) Jun 22 09:57:02 Khertan: good :D Jun 22 09:57:35 * Khertan before Maemo didn't know anything about packaging. It s amazing that now i'm creating tool to help user to build package Jun 22 09:57:49 * Khertan thanks a lot X-Fade for his patience :) Jun 22 09:58:53 X-Fade: about distributing app for harmattan does there is documentation about it ? Jun 22 09:59:10 addition in the packages information, section ? Jun 22 09:59:22 Khertan: No, not yet. I'm working on the OBS target for Harmattan atm. Jun 22 09:59:41 X-Fade: obs too ... huM ... really good :) Jun 22 10:00:09 Yes, at meego community obs. Jun 22 10:01:18 http://allthingsd.com/20110621/meet-the-stealthy-start-up-that-aims-to-sharpen-focus-of-entire-camera-industry/ Jun 22 10:01:54 X-Fade: could you remember me the url ? it s not in the wiki : http://wiki.meego.com/Build_Infrastructure/Community_Builder Jun 22 10:01:57 :) Jun 22 10:02:12 so... apparently meego is all kinds of shiny Jun 22 10:02:23 why the hell is nokia not going to use it for nerdphones Jun 22 10:02:27 https://build.pub.meego.com/ Jun 22 10:02:54 thx Jun 22 10:05:12 Khertan: Can you add a nice prominent link? The ([1]) is a bit subtle Jun 22 10:05:22 link added in the wiki Jun 22 10:05:24 Jaffa: yep Jun 22 10:05:30 look at the last minor edit :) Jun 22 10:05:34 already done Jun 22 10:05:53 * Khertan didn't click on the preview button <---- it s a shame Jun 22 10:10:15 ouch ... didn't remember password Jun 22 10:10:30 Khertan: meego.com account Jun 22 10:11:14 X-Fade: oh ... indeed ... this explain what it wasn't the same password than before Jun 22 10:11:15 thx Jun 22 10:11:15 :) Jun 22 10:16:53 Attitude running in the Harmattan Qt SDK http://bleb.org/software/maemo/harmattan-attitude-sdk.png Jun 22 10:17:03 mece: looking at the N9 I want another phone... Jun 22 10:17:21 chem|st: yep i want an n950 :) Jun 22 10:17:52 personally i'd like a properly commercially available n950 with the n9's spec :< Jun 22 10:18:19 nid0: an n9 with a keyboard so :) Jun 22 10:18:25 indeed. Jun 22 10:19:15 Jaffa: did you have time to try what Khweeteur look like in the sdk ? Jun 22 10:19:33 Jaffa: https://gitorious.org/khweeteur Jun 22 10:19:51 my sdk install failed and break my debian :( Jun 22 10:19:54 i think almost every n900 user would prefer an n950 that was commercially available with n9's spec. the phone was originally going to launch nokia's new platform thus needed to be more 'consumer friendly' which they think means no keyboards Jun 22 10:19:54 Khertan: No. I've managed to get three apps running: two of them already pre-installed and my own QML app Jun 22 10:20:10 not the fault of the sdk ... / full :) Jun 22 10:20:21 Jaffa: no prob :) Jun 22 10:29:52 I really want both N9 and N950. Want N950 for hacking and coding and N9 because it's shiny and have sexy screen and nfc... Jun 22 10:30:14 I want evertyhing Jun 22 10:30:18 but yeah KMFDM, N900 users probly would rather have N950, if it were commercial. Jun 22 10:30:19 so people will think I'm cool Jun 22 10:30:49 Appiah, it's also cool to not have something. NOT having an android or iOS device is cool :) Jun 22 10:30:54 :D Jun 22 10:32:30 my fingers are just crossed that nokia puts out an updated commercial n950 replacement at some point :< Jun 22 10:32:59 e9 maybe? Jun 22 10:33:01 nid0, who knows what the future brings. I really hope the N9 is a commercial success. Jun 22 10:33:19 at least it's getting great press Jun 22 10:33:29 better than any nok phone in years! Jun 22 10:33:35 n9 is a dead horse Jun 22 10:33:57 beautiful dead horse :P Jun 22 10:34:06 all hail to elop Jun 22 10:35:11 mece: sometimes I have NFC myself ;-P Jun 22 10:35:19 hmhm, anyone knows what HS means in nokia devices context? Jun 22 10:35:24 its a dead horse that can be revived very quickly though. right from the outset, the spending examples elop presented showed nokia's going to continue investing in meego development, all it takes is one statement from him clearing that up saying "yes we are committing to future meego development and devices" and suddenly the horse is very much alive again Jun 22 10:35:35 Corsac, Helsingin Sanomat? Jun 22 10:35:46 ? Jun 22 10:35:53 Corsac: High Security? Jun 22 10:35:57 and my fingers are just crossed that he'll do that on the back of very positive reactions to the n9 Jun 22 10:36:31 Stskeeps: might be, but what does it corresponds to? Jun 22 10:36:36 Corsac: omap Jun 22 10:36:43 nid0: indeed Jun 22 10:36:47 (elop) Jun 22 10:37:10 DocScrutinizer, nid0, that would make ballmer shit a brick :D Jun 22 10:37:45 and is the reason why this won't ever happen Jun 22 10:37:47 Stskeeps: that's stil a bit scarse, it's definitely related to omap security extensions and trustzone, but what are hs devices? Jun 22 10:37:58 Corsac: signed bootloader and that kind of stuff Jun 22 10:38:07 Corsac: n900 is a omap3 hs device stuff Jun 22 10:38:33 aegis Jun 22 10:38:37 BS Jun 22 10:38:37 I dont really see why, all other wp7 hardware partners use two smartphone os's, and microsoft are fully awake these days to the idea that other solutions exist Jun 22 10:38:45 * DocScrutinizer pukes Jun 22 10:39:03 http://www.slideshare.net/peterschneider/maemo-6-platform-security Jun 22 10:39:10 * mece hands DocScrutinizer a glass of water Jun 22 10:39:11 DocScrutinizer: please stop with fud Jun 22 10:39:31 me??? FUD? proof needed Jun 22 10:40:09 you don't seem to have any idea what you're talking about, as you keep pasting maemo security slides Jun 22 10:40:21 Corsac: just watch and read and *understand* those simple slides at URL I posted Jun 22 10:40:36 DocScrutinizer: I read them (and commented on the wiki page) since they're out Jun 22 10:40:59 uhuh, so they found a way to even better assrape users? Jun 22 10:41:12 http://twitter.com/kypeli/status/83275615779815424 Jun 22 10:41:20 http://twitter.com/vivainio/status/83276168324841473 Jun 22 10:41:21 DocScrutinizer: you just fail to understand what integrity protection is Jun 22 10:41:36 and you just FUD, you run screaming “DRM” and that's all Jun 22 10:41:39 you just fail to see how they trick you Jun 22 10:42:19 X-Fade: distutils bdist_rpm can be use to generate specs file, so no need other tools ;) Jun 22 10:42:48 DocScrutinizer: well, at least I'm reading the source code in order to really understand what is really going on there Jun 22 10:42:58 pfff Jun 22 10:43:02 DocScrutinizer: instead of repeatedly pasting the same pdf over and over Jun 22 10:43:08 as if it would explain anything Jun 22 10:43:21 if you got the concept, you read sourcecode only to find the flaws in imlementation Jun 22 10:43:46 ok, I stop arguing Jun 22 10:44:20 the concept is: no secure app will run in a tainted environment. No unsigned app may run in a clean "secure" environment Jun 22 10:45:15 as you alsways got some secure apps you don't want to miss, your option to go "open" is mere hypothetical Jun 22 10:45:48 furthermore you need a reboot to clean a tainted hardware Jun 22 10:47:15 means: start strace ->platform enters "open" mode and is marked tainted -> all signed apps get cleaned out of mem completely. You have a device without dialer, mediaplayer, whatnot, to Nokia's sole discretion of which apps they like to sign Jun 22 10:48:07 reboot to revert to "normal" (whatever the meaning of "mormal" here) Jun 22 10:52:22 these are system immanent security requirements for such a concept of "integrity", and no reading the sourcecode will change anything, as best you can get is they failed at implementation, which would render the whole cruft useless Jun 22 10:53:09 now that's FUD I like Jun 22 10:53:13 ;-D Jun 22 10:53:46 what's your FUD? "I read the source..."? Jun 22 11:04:30 DocScrutinizer regarding the security bits: me: http://twitter.com/mece66/status/83484485680762880 Ville's answer: http://twitter.com/vivainio/status/83487471903576064 Jun 22 11:05:03 meh Jun 22 11:05:29 I did it again, clicked a twitter URL :-( Jun 22 11:05:43 always blank page after loading 99 pictures Jun 22 11:06:15 sorry, I'll have to add twitter.com 0.0.0.0 >>/etc/hosts Jun 22 11:06:35 until they consider to fix their broken website shit Jun 22 11:07:02 IOW no idea what you're trying to tell me Jun 22 11:07:27 DocScrutinizer, heh ok.. Jun 22 11:07:33 (and no, I'm not going to use FF or MSIE to watch that page) Jun 22 11:08:36 how about this then: http://mobile.twitter.com/mece66/status/83484485680762880 http://mobile.twitter.com/vivainio/status/83487471903576064 Jun 22 11:08:48 even your browser should manage that one Jun 22 11:09:37 yo, brilliant Jun 22 11:10:09 :) Jun 22 11:11:04 mece: it's absolutely easy to switch to your own stuff. But you enter tainted mode, which means commercial apps refuse to run on that system Jun 22 11:12:26 DocScrutinizer, is that so? Jun 22 11:12:56 DocScrutinizer: then just ship a manifest file Jun 22 11:12:56 the transition is defined as ""set tainted flag. Stop all secure apps. Clean memeory used by secure apps (so no binary phantoms like hashes etc remain). remove the key infra. THEN start any of the insecure apps user requested"" Jun 22 11:13:10 Hello. Can i ask question about titan kernel? Jun 22 11:13:21 DocScrutinizer, where are you reading this? Jun 22 11:13:34 he's making that up Jun 22 11:13:40 in IT magazines since 2001 Jun 22 11:13:53 DocScrutinizer, are you sure we have this on N9? Jun 22 11:14:00 as that's about how long this shit is around now Jun 22 11:14:10 the concept is unchanged Jun 22 11:14:33 you CAN NOT change that concept, without introducing fatal vulnerabilities Jun 22 11:14:50 According to http://wiki.maemo.org/Overclocking#titan.27s_ULV_kernel wikipage there is ulv kernel for titan series. But how can i set up ulv values for kernel without reflashing my kernel like solution that nick "Lehto" had. Jun 22 11:15:00 DocScrutinizer, N900 isn't like this... so where are you reading that N9 is like this? Jun 22 11:15:36 DocScrutinizer: I'm not even sure there's a way to taint a running device, you just won't be allowed to run your strace Jun 22 11:15:59 see URL above, unless they nuked it it's exactly what I referred to - even when Corsac claims they "improved" or "changed" it Jun 22 11:16:12 it still has sourcecode so the concept is still alive Jun 22 11:16:59 Corsac: when you're not allowed to switch "secure" -> "open" then that's an implememtation shortcoming Jun 22 11:16:59 morning Jun 22 11:17:22 Corsac: doesn't make thaings any better, huh? Jun 22 11:18:10 I don't think it's written anywhere that MSSF accepts a transition from normal to hacker mode without reboot Jun 22 11:18:37 As my N900 has all but completely been written off, I am sad to see that the N950 is only going to be for people on the dev schemes :( Jun 22 11:18:46 the concept allows for that. No idea if "your" implementation does Jun 22 11:18:58 “my”? Jun 22 11:19:04 what exactly are you talking about? Jun 22 11:19:05 """your""" Jun 22 11:19:46 and the concept is MSSF, there's nothing else, I think Jun 22 11:20:16 I'm talking about a concept od "security" and "integrity" that's sold to users as a good thing, but indeed is a big stinking PoS Jun 22 11:20:16 hmhm, didn't I say that I would stop trolling? Jun 22 11:20:41 thank you for establishing you don't have a single clue about the whole thing Jun 22 11:20:42 and that concept been around since MS invented fritz chip Jun 22 11:20:51 or was it Intel? Jun 22 11:21:17 people like you, spraying fud like that, are just hiding the real problems Jun 22 11:21:27 Corsac: I'm happy I have no clue about your limited view of the world Jun 22 11:21:28 you don't make yourself a favor Jun 22 11:21:59 evidently the brainwash worked excellent on you Jun 22 11:23:05 there's just so many concepts based on a hierarchical chain of trust and integrity Jun 22 11:23:50 don't tell me Nokia invented a completely new one Jun 22 11:24:49 has anyone opened up the Maemo 6 image yet? Jun 22 11:25:32 it's just so complex meanwhile that you *think* you can get around the immanent limitations which are: you can't run strace, gdb, $random-unsigned-tool-or-app, on a platform while keep running trusted apps concurrently Jun 22 11:26:17 and there's no way other than reboot to clean up a tainted environment Jun 22 11:26:57 no matter how finegrained your resource monitoring might get Jun 22 11:27:22 well, tainted mode is for devving apps, no point in debugging closed source apps :) Jun 22 11:28:05 Hurrian: indeed. but you missed the point of global mutual exclusiveness Jun 22 11:28:15 ah Jun 22 11:28:34 well, we may as well be running apps in a sandbox. aaaaaaaaaaheeeeem. Jun 22 11:28:35 but where does it say n9 has any of that crap? Jun 22 11:28:37 erm Jun 22 11:28:39 or? Jun 22 11:28:41 when you start GDB, you can't control which process it's going to monitor Jun 22 11:28:43 mece: aegis Jun 22 11:28:44 basically Jun 22 11:28:48 wtf is aegis? Jun 22 11:28:55 and where does it say aegis? Jun 22 11:28:58 system supported DRM Jun 22 11:29:18 only care about it if you're buying apps off the app store Jun 22 11:29:22 Ovi has no apps. Jun 22 11:29:33 so it needs cracking... Jun 22 11:29:38 how annoying Jun 22 11:29:44 drm is made to be broken Jun 22 11:29:55 drm is broken by design Jun 22 11:30:12 ruskie, agreed, but how do we make companies NOT put in DRM? Jun 22 11:30:14 ruskie, no kidding Jun 22 11:30:29 Hurrian: don'T buy devices that support it Jun 22 11:30:32 there's always a serial, MAC check, etc Jun 22 11:30:35 what Doc said Jun 22 11:30:42 Hurrian, hahahaha Jun 22 11:30:49 people always get around it Jun 22 11:30:53 MAC is pointless since it's easily changable Jun 22 11:30:55 even on windows systems Jun 22 11:30:57 but... Jun 22 11:31:00 it's flawed, and perfectly breakable Jun 22 11:31:13 Hurrian: not THIS crap Jun 22 11:31:15 vivainio said you can run anything installed from a deb Jun 22 11:31:31 Hurrian: unless they messed it up Jun 22 11:31:34 Doc: what crap? Jun 22 11:31:45 mece, yeah from what I understood it was something along the lines of you can have DRM enabled and limited to what you can do ... or disable it and do whatever but lack access to DRMed stuff Jun 22 11:31:48 the signed bootlaoder, to start with Jun 22 11:31:52 atleast from what I've read before Jun 22 11:32:03 wait a second, the N9's bootloader is signed? Jun 22 11:32:12 that hands credentials (=trust/integrity) to a signed kernel Jun 22 11:32:12 most likely. Jun 22 11:32:15 what's the TLDR of this argument? the N9 comes with trusted computing modules? Jun 22 11:32:48 heh, do they really keep the dialer in hitlermode? Jun 22 11:32:54 thats pretty awful if they do Jun 22 11:33:00 even N900 BL is signed Jun 22 11:33:17 (1st stage) Jun 22 11:33:43 Choom: OMAP Jun 22 11:34:07 I'm assuming, from the two pages of scrollback that I've read, that they are being used Jun 22 11:34:25 Doc: the N900's 0th stage is ROM, and apparently verifies any NOLO image fed to it Jun 22 11:35:15 indeed NLDR or what's the neame is 1st stage after ROM, and that one is signed, and load an unsigned NOLO (still?) Jun 22 11:35:26 XLDR? Jun 22 11:35:40 NOLO is 2nd dtage Jun 22 11:35:43 stage* Jun 22 11:36:13 iirc it's the secure ROM found inside the OMAP Jun 22 11:36:24 with PR1.2 they shiped some new NOLO, "for making development of security framework on meego possible" Jun 22 11:36:50 brb, it's about time the EMMC image coughed up the bins Jun 22 11:37:41 achipa, N9 or N950? Jun 22 11:37:52 and now I have to face Corsacs etc calling my concerns FUD Jun 22 11:37:56 THANKS Jun 22 11:38:08 mece: N950 Jun 22 11:38:13 achipa, nice :) Jun 22 11:39:18 N9 is really nice, but I realized I'm really a N950 guy Jun 22 11:39:26 too much really, but really :) Jun 22 11:39:46 I hope I demonstrated my complete cluelessness regarding concept of "integrity" to a sufficient extent during the last 45 min, and wish you all a nice afternoon, morning, night, whatever Jun 22 11:39:50 achipa: +1 Jun 22 11:40:09 bye bye Jun 22 11:40:21 achipa: +2 Jun 22 11:40:24 achipa: did you see the video of n950 Jun 22 11:40:44 Khertan: umm, I saw one video... a polish one ? Jun 22 11:40:56 achipa: yep Jun 22 11:41:17 achipa: Tweet from Nokia N9 <<< huhu ! Jun 22 11:41:25 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5115609628556940516&q=trusted+computing# Jun 22 11:41:26 Khertan: can you pls help me with releasing my app? Jun 22 11:41:47 cloudyLights: whar is the problem ? Jun 22 11:41:56 s/whar/what Jun 22 11:42:20 well I changed the pypackager file again, to make the status menu show the button Jun 22 11:42:20 yep, no longer have to hide behind "via iPhone" :P Jun 22 11:42:32 DocScrutinizer <-- one hell of a morbid complaining FUDder Jun 22 11:42:33 hihi Jun 22 11:42:39 but I need to test a clean install on a N900 Jun 22 11:42:45 achipa, post boot log and dmesg plz? Jun 22 11:42:48 "just to know it works" Jun 22 11:43:01 Doc: You will be absolutely happy with DRM! =) Jun 22 11:43:09 I can't get scratchbox to do X on my 64 bit pc Jun 22 11:43:27 cloudyLights: same problem here :) Jun 22 11:43:45 and I have asked all ppl I know to :"just install it" Jun 22 11:43:54 cloudyLights: as i never install your app ... i can install it on my device :) Jun 22 11:43:56 how can I release a package Ididnt test? Jun 22 11:44:07 cloudyLights: extras devel :) Jun 22 11:44:11 Khertan: can the video be watched without flash? Jun 22 11:44:12 mece: as said, the moment we give the first one in somebody's hand, you'll have it, sorry, can't do better than that :( Jun 22 11:44:22 cloudyLights: or simply do a binary build Jun 22 11:44:29 achipa, no worries :) Jun 22 11:44:35 Khertan: I need one person to say "it works" Jun 22 11:44:53 Corsac: youtube provide html5 video no ? Jun 22 11:45:04 cloudyLights: where is the deb file ? Jun 22 11:45:23 https://code.google.com/p/switch-profile-by-meeting/downloads/list Jun 22 11:45:42 I even have the source open there - so you can verify its ok Jun 22 11:46:00 most ppl fear this maybe malware Jun 22 11:46:01 Khertan: yeah, do you have the youtube link? Jun 22 11:46:19 but I just wrote a few python lines.... Jun 22 11:49:19 running binwalk now on the image files :D Jun 22 11:49:23 Corsac: http://www.meegofrance.com/2011/06/video-du-nokia-n950/ Jun 22 11:53:24 cloudyLights: ? Jun 22 11:54:06 I mean: one can't just install software from an unknown source Jun 22 11:54:39 ppl should fear installing unknown software (spoken like a true security expert) Jun 22 11:54:55 rofl Jun 22 11:54:58 yet I need to test my first app Jun 22 11:55:19 cloudyLights, what is the problem? Jun 22 11:55:25 here is another app I would love to have: "find my wife" Jun 22 11:55:46 mece: pls install my new app , and tell em if it works Jun 22 11:55:58 so I can submit it to devel-extras Jun 22 11:56:14 the point is you submit it there and then people test it Jun 22 11:56:20 the "wife" installs the prog and yu do Jun 22 11:56:31 cloudyLights, what ruskie said Jun 22 11:56:46 o ok... emm Jun 22 11:56:54 cloudyLights, you don't have a device yourself? Jun 22 11:57:07 all due to some bugga bugga scary thing that people have about using non-main repositories... what's the point of having this option then even in... Jun 22 11:57:18 so if your "wife" is bad with navagating, you can get to her Jun 22 11:57:47 mece: I allready have it running Jun 22 11:57:59 cloudyLights, so it works. Jun 22 11:58:17 well, maybe Khertan would verify it , and I would submit it Jun 22 12:00:02 cloudyLights, if it works on your device, you can upload it to devel and then ask someone to test it. Jun 22 12:00:09 re Jun 22 12:00:13 disconnected Jun 22 12:00:33 héhé ... just send me the deb package Jun 22 12:00:45 i ll say you if it s works or not Jun 22 12:01:10 do not fear ... i ll install it on my 2nd n900 which i use for that Jun 22 12:02:31 DocScrutinizer: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-security-discussion/2011-June/000176.html Jun 22 12:03:11 I find I waste a lot of time finding my wife , even when she is "near me Jun 22 12:03:19 yeeeeeehaw, mounted mmc0 image Jun 22 12:03:33 Hurrian, umm.. Jun 22 12:03:34 time to look for the ext4 inside it Jun 22 12:03:43 Hurrian, ah ok :) Jun 22 12:03:45 Khertan: https://switch-profile-by-meeting.googlecode.com/files/switch-profile-by-meeting_0.0.1-1_all.deb Jun 22 12:05:27 Hurrian: from which image? Jun 22 12:06:15 N950 Jun 22 12:06:27 mmc1 image is blank Jun 22 12:06:34 ? Jun 22 12:06:40 hmhm, and where did you get it from? Jun 22 12:06:51 I think I only saw some rootstrap for sdk Jun 22 12:07:21 nokia n950 site Jun 22 12:07:32 i'm going to try the rootfs later Jun 22 12:08:32 Hurrian: hmhm, what n950 site, the harmattan-dev one? Jun 22 12:08:35 or the swipe stuff? Jun 22 12:09:01 harmattan-dev Jun 22 12:09:33 cloudyLights: nothing in status menu after install Jun 22 12:09:44 :-( Jun 22 12:09:54 <_trine> http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dder%2Bspiegel%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1250%26bih%3D754%26prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=de&u=http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/gadgets/0,1518,769589,00.html&usg=ALkJrhj9hPJCeisODA5dDpiqKTpWIoQpYQ Jun 22 12:10:06 can you pls open a root shell and pkill status? Jun 22 12:10:12 give us a summary please Jun 22 12:10:47 * Arkenoi wonders if n950 overclocks and what is maximum safe frequency Jun 22 12:10:58 Hurrian: hmhm then I fail to see a rootfs Jun 22 12:11:28 despite all FUD, i found no side effects of being overclocked for an year on n900 Jun 22 12:11:30 also, will it blend? Jun 22 12:11:30 Khertan: sorry new deb is: https://code.google.com/p/switch-profile-by-meeting/source/browse/trunk/deb/switch-profile-by-meeting_0.0.1-1_all.deb Jun 22 12:11:31 rootfs.lzo Jun 22 12:11:40 ah, actually almost 1.5 years now Jun 22 12:11:59 cloudyLights: nothing more after status reboot Jun 22 12:12:26 https://switch-profile-by-meeting.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/deb/switch-profile-by-meeting_0.0.1-1_all.deb Jun 22 12:12:31 * mece wonders if the N9 and/or the N950 have fm receiver / transmitter hardware Jun 22 12:13:32 mece: and a TV and dual sim - like my chinese device ;) Jun 22 12:13:38 damn nokia, the rootfs.lzo image does NOT look like a lzo image Jun 22 12:13:49 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/22/meego_and_betrayal_myths/ Jun 22 12:15:31 ***mece wonders if the N9 and/or the N950 have fm receiver / transmitter hardware <<< no fm transmitter Jun 22 12:16:33 ir transmitter? ... no Jun 22 12:16:33 too bad, it's a great toy when you need it. although, external fm transmitters are cheap and easy to use I imagine. Jun 22 12:16:34 khertan: None officially Jun 22 12:16:58 Jaffa: indeed ... officially :) Jun 22 12:17:17 flux: fm transmitter never work in Paris Jun 22 12:17:22 too much parasite Jun 22 12:17:30 too much noise Jun 22 12:17:42 well, happily I don't live in Paris :) Jun 22 12:18:06 :) Jun 22 12:18:20 cloudyLights: did it s works on your device ? Jun 22 12:18:28 yes Jun 22 12:18:36 but I used it to develop Jun 22 12:18:47 so there maybe missing peaces Jun 22 12:18:48 although it's not always that easy to find a proper freq here in Finland either, if you're driving long distances Jun 22 12:19:13 but I never tried boosting the fm tx, maybe it would've helped Jun 22 12:19:37 flux, well it's as much of a toy for me as any other method of getting sound from phone to something with nice speakers. And of course it must be boosted to work :) Jun 22 12:19:57 besides i bet the n9 will be insanely expensive ... nokia isnt really about selling masses of it, they just have to fulfill some obligations/contracts Jun 22 12:20:21 cloudyLights: probably missing dependencies ;) Jun 22 12:20:53 can you run : cruxEve6 Jun 22 12:20:58 i'm starting to think flasher puts the rootfs files together Jun 22 12:21:00 sorry Jun 22 12:21:01 I missed most of the discussion that was inevitably above, but does anyone have any idea how dev-friendly the N9 will be? Jun 22 12:21:28 Is there some sort of mailing list / forum / wiki for the harmattan sdk? I mean with explanations (why the emulator cannot run any menu entries but manual start works sometimes) or whether to use meegotouch or qml etc.? Jun 22 12:21:39 can you run : /usr/lib/switchProfByMeeting/switch_backend.py Jun 22 12:21:42 as user Jun 22 12:21:46 line 53 undefined name status Jun 22 12:21:56 line 64 Jun 22 12:21:58 same Jun 22 12:22:01 ruskie: Andrew Orlowski is a troll Jun 22 12:22:02 pyflakes result :) Jun 22 12:22:27 Jaffa, but a good one at that ;) Jun 22 12:22:36 khertan: thnaks Jun 22 12:22:39 thnaks! Jun 22 12:22:55 cloudyLights: and switch_backend.py say no module gobject :) Jun 22 12:23:15 anyone see any bq* modules in n9 kernel? Jun 22 12:23:28 ok, so what does gobject belongs to.... Jun 22 12:23:42 python-gobject Jun 22 12:24:14 so let me add it Jun 22 12:25:05 shadowjk, still haven't unpacked the images Jun 22 12:25:20 ah Jun 22 12:25:27 ruskie: Well he uses the word "fanbois" in the first sentence and it doesn't take him long to cook up a conspiracy theory of conspiracy theories, using it to knock DEC, Sun, IBM *and* Linux. Jun 22 12:25:27 khertan: where do you see line 53 undefined name status ? Jun 22 12:25:28 wait Jun 22 12:25:29 zImage Jun 22 12:25:40 Jaffa, yeah like he always does ;) Jun 22 12:25:56 cloudyLights: in /usr/lib/hildon-desktop/switch.....py Jun 22 12:26:42 2.6.32.39-dfl61-20112P Jun 22 12:26:44 RAAAAAEG Jun 22 12:27:08 http://xkcd.com/915/ <-- hehe Jun 22 12:27:30 jaffa: bet you are scared with arjan's post getting scattered through twitter Jun 22 12:27:57 javispedro: Fortunately LWN's comment system is sane, so mine's underneath it :_) Jun 22 12:28:18 atm, two of the items I have on my rss reader stock #meego twitter feed link to arjan's Jun 22 12:28:22 Interesting icons at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LphiRFvd40I&feature=player_detailpage#t=426s - The Telegraph, Hotel Hunt, My Bank, Foursquare, YouTube, ... Jun 22 12:28:43 cloudyLights: in switch_backend line 159 backend variable referenced before assignement Jun 22 12:29:21 in switch_frontend.py line 70 return_tuple undefined Jun 22 12:29:34 Jaffa: idd, if theyre actual apps expected to be available by launch its a good start Jun 22 12:29:43 switch_frontend.py is not used now Jun 22 12:29:48 hi *. when I ssh into my n900 I can login, but sometimes the connection just hangs. It seems to work quite nice the other way around n900->laptop. Its only happening with this ap, any ideas (besides changing ap?) Jun 22 12:30:08 change ap or change n900's power saving Jun 22 12:30:09 jhb: economy saver Jun 22 12:30:28 khertan: saving is disables, ping is running in bg from n900 Jun 22 12:30:38 disabled Jun 22 12:30:42 so swith ap :) Jun 22 12:31:15 cloudyLights: pyflakes is really usefull ... is available on n900 and is integrated in KhtEditor you should try it Jun 22 12:31:31 ok Jun 22 12:31:34 javispedro: I'm trying to do my own Twitter frenzy then Jun 22 12:31:37 thnaks Jun 22 12:31:45 javispedro: https://twitter.com/#!/jaffa2/statuses/83511858170052609 Jun 22 12:34:09 khertan: no such setting on the ap :-( Jun 22 12:35:12 i mean use other ap Jun 22 12:35:38 speaking of OS/2, was not it Microsoft who pulled from OS/2, effectively sinking the project because of incompatibility with windows apps? Jun 22 12:36:02 jaffa: but there's no news like na Jun 22 12:36:06 like bad news Jun 22 12:36:19 so you're going to have a hard time Jun 22 12:36:29 moo javispedro Jun 22 12:36:38 maybe it's time I make my first twit. Jun 22 12:36:40 TheRegister article is good, professional trolling Jun 22 12:36:42 javispedro: Woo Jun 22 12:36:46 Lots of truth there Jun 22 12:36:47 hi there RST38h Jun 22 12:37:01 Whether it completely describes the Meego situation is a whole different question though Jun 22 12:37:03 * ruskie wonders if there will ever be a device to replace the N900 from Nokia... Jun 22 12:37:07 RST38h: I dunno, "fanbois" as the second word and conspiracy theories about conspiracy theories... Jun 22 12:37:10 javispedro: s/twit/tweet ? Jun 22 12:37:15 rst38h: I call those the "convenient" truth Jun 22 12:37:23 Jaffa: Well, I did read beyond the keywords and to the end Jun 22 12:37:24 Jaffa, that's more or less their usual writting style Jun 22 12:37:29 ruskie: Depends what you use your N900 for. It's either the N950 or N9. Ain't gonna be better from Nokia in the short term Jun 22 12:37:39 Jaffa, but they don't sell the N950 Jun 22 12:37:45 * lardman is sad, just handed over keys to flat he's lived in for past ~11 years Jun 22 12:37:47 znd N950 us unobtanium Jun 22 12:37:53 Jaffa: One thing is, his musings of Nokia CEO being realist do not quite explain other quirks in his behaviour Jun 22 12:37:54 RST38h: I read to the end (skimmed the bits about IBM & OS/2, I've read enough about that) Jun 22 12:37:57 so that can't be a valid choice in this case Jun 22 12:38:09 ruskie: You didn't say "sell". You said, "if there'll ever be a replacement from Nokia" Jun 22 12:38:15 Getting an N950 will be "from Nokia" ;-) Jun 22 12:38:19 well there obviously isn't Jun 22 12:38:26 talking general population Jun 22 12:38:29 not secret club Jun 22 12:38:41 Jaffa: Secondly, I am still not buying the idea that there is no place in the world for mobile platforms other than Android and iPhone Jun 22 12:38:53 wait, what secret club? Jun 22 12:38:57 lardman: Not changing the country though? Jun 22 12:39:06 RST38h: Evidence is that there's far more openness in handsets than there is in PCs, laptops or tablets. Jun 22 12:39:18 Jaffa: will be probably hard to get an n950 Jun 22 12:39:42 Jaffa: The whole idea of the "race being decided, and iOS/Android have won" stikes me as a bit cheesy Jun 22 12:39:45 Nokia could sell the N950 to those that bought a N900... Jun 22 12:40:01 just have a proof of purchase and you could buy a 950... that would be nice Jun 22 12:40:11 ruskie: they prefer so sell / give it to dev to have rapidly more apps for n9 Jun 22 12:40:11 Appiah, secret club of 250 N950 devices Jun 22 12:40:24 ShadowJK: There are a few secret clubs Jun 22 12:40:36 RST38h: no, just moving into the country - craptastic 2G only for the next couple of weeks Jun 22 12:40:48 ShadowJK: =( Jun 22 12:40:53 ShadowJK: 250 is for meego foss dev and for the moment from what i understand of quim gil blog post Jun 22 12:41:09 maybe the hardware for N950 is so old with obsolete components that to build more of them they would need to redesign parts? Jun 22 12:41:27 flux, I thought the N9 wasn't all that different in parts used? Jun 22 12:41:39 micro sim is rather disappointing, I'm going to have to do some SIM chopping Jun 22 12:41:42 almosst same parts I think Jun 22 12:42:09 flux: no Jun 22 12:42:15 N950 has manufacturing/QA/cert issues Jun 22 12:42:20 that's why Jun 22 12:42:22 termana: yeah wtf. So if sim chopping fails I have to spend 20€ to get another sim and a second attempt Jun 22 12:42:24 Termana, hehe I'm gonna get a dual-sim one number thingy from my cellco so I can cut one up and still have one normal... and I'd like to shoot apple for the stupid microsim thing Jun 22 12:42:25 DocScrutinizer: oh really ? Jun 22 12:42:47 something along that line Jun 22 12:43:00 DocScrutinizer, so why not say this or an incarnation of such device might be sold later on? Jun 22 12:43:04 lardman: Jun 22 12:43:08 if it only has issues that need sorting? Jun 22 12:43:15 lardman: a minor adventure then =) Jun 22 12:43:24 if it's made like E7, well even the static display models in shops have the slider mechanisms broken :P Jun 22 12:43:26 ruskie, it's more than just issues Jun 22 12:43:31 I think it's been konttori who said they'd love to sell them in huge numbers, but they can't produce enough, for some "CE" reason Jun 22 12:43:31 OT, but any ideas on long VGA cables + how to get edid working? Jun 22 12:43:38 RST38h: yeah :) Jun 22 12:43:48 ShadowJK: The shop models are no indication Jun 22 12:43:53 These N950s are just old prototypes, they are not being made and then shipped out. Jun 22 12:43:57 ShadowJK: They take pretty hard handling =( Jun 22 12:44:14 Nokia has nothing better to do with them Jun 22 12:44:30 ohh well here's hoping they'll eventually come up with a proper replacement eventually Jun 22 12:44:30 lardman: If you need a long cable, go with DVI or HDMI Jun 22 12:44:32 RST38h, actual N900 on display in same shop was fine :P Jun 22 12:44:36 arggh Jun 22 12:44:39 så confusing Jun 22 12:44:44 though someone had entered a lock code for the lulz Jun 22 12:44:48 ShadowJK: Maybe nobody was interested! =) Jun 22 12:45:02 RST38h: not even long, just 3m Jun 22 12:45:08 lardman: but a 3m VGA still works, if it is a good cable Jun 22 12:45:18 lardman: the price not being any indication of how good it is Jun 22 12:45:20 * ShadowJK is hoping Nokia will come out with a N900 replacement too :( Jun 22 12:45:37 also emember that old urban rumour about some maemo device got rejected by carriers due to slide being "too flimsy" or sth Jun 22 12:45:40 RST38h: drat, so just a case of trying some more then Jun 22 12:46:06 might well be exactly this N950 Jun 22 12:46:08 ShadowJK, the N9 Jun 22 12:46:08 the n950 seemed extremely robust and well made, nice rubberised plastic Jun 22 12:46:08 ;) Jun 22 12:46:21 Termana, N9 is stupid Jun 22 12:46:24 the newer black ones they're starting to give out that is Jun 22 12:47:18 * ShadowJK 'd much rather have a "N900i". N900 with memory/soc upgrade and everything else untouched. Jun 22 12:47:25 one thing's for sure: Nokia didn't design and develp N950 on sole purpose of giving a small number of them to devels Jun 22 12:47:27 lardman: Yea, but do not go for the most expensive golden plated one. My experience shows that a $10 non-name cable from RadioShack works =) Jun 22 12:47:27 ShadowJK+++++++++++ Jun 22 12:47:44 ShadowJK: yep Jun 22 12:47:45 RST38h: long way to RadioShack from here ;) Jun 22 12:47:57 ShadowJK: You can have it in photoshop, courtesy of many TMO open hardware designers! Jun 22 12:48:03 ShadowJK, suit yourself but I'm sure we can all predict what is going to happen here Jun 22 12:48:06 lardman: YOu must have a replacement of sorts! Jun 22 12:48:17 The same damn thing thats happened with basically every release Jun 22 12:48:21 RST38h: yeah I know :) Jun 22 12:48:23 ShadowJK, and maybe a 4.5" screen Jun 22 12:48:25 RST38h, I once bought a bunch of adapters and connected all my random vga cables together into a long one. worked fine :-) Jun 22 12:48:47 ShadowJK: I was thinking of doing that actually Jun 22 12:48:48 n950 seems the best phone i ve seen until now for me Jun 22 12:48:51 lardman: Hell, given the perceived conservatism of UK, it may still be selling soldering irons! Jun 22 12:48:59 4", keyboard, python :) Jun 22 12:49:12 ShadowJK: Usually causes shadows at all the window edges Jun 22 12:49:13 and it s a phone ... i didn't ask too much :) Jun 22 12:49:21 ruskie, sure, you could make a long wishlist, but this was the mininmum effort for a next model N900 replacement :-) Jun 22 12:49:24 also isn't it tale telling that N950 seems available in numbers sufficient for devel device program, while N9 still is kinda vaporware? Jun 22 12:49:31 ShadowJK: Due to the signal bouncing, if I remember Wiki correctly =) Jun 22 12:49:53 DocScrutinizer, so you're saying or hoping it might actually be some pre-prod device that might get polished up eventually? Jun 22 12:50:01 DocScrutinizer: as RST38h said, there's still some time left for elop to cancel the entire line ;P Jun 22 12:50:02 yep Jun 22 12:50:04 Doc: There is a comment explaining this in a thread under Arkanoid's blog post Jun 22 12:50:11 * lardman wanders off to see if he can scrounge a 2m cable Jun 22 12:50:22 DocScrutinizer, its basically obvious given all factors that the n950 is what was supposedly meant for last year or the rejected one thats just now been repurposed, and all my fingers, toes, hairs, and everything are crossed that theyll also put out a proper updated one :) Jun 22 12:50:24 would definately be nice Jun 22 12:50:46 In hope we believe Jun 22 12:51:01 ugh! n950 EMMC will need to be rebuilt to be able to be mounted Jun 22 12:51:04 Doc: Basically comes down to them planning to release N950 first, making some samples, then canceling it in favor of something that should have followed N9, then cancelling the N9 followup and consequently digging remaining N950 stash for developers until N9 is ready Jun 22 12:51:06 I think there is a lot of misplaced hope in this channel Jun 22 12:51:13 Doc: [yes, I know] Jun 22 12:51:31 Termana: ... :) Jun 22 12:51:42 it would be nice if the N9 sells well enough for Nokia to actually go... ok we'll run one or two products per year Jun 22 12:51:54 * khertan hope his n900 will not die to fast ... :) Jun 22 12:52:03 ruskie: " I think there is a lot of misplaced hope in this channel" Jun 22 12:52:13 RST38h: why would they cancel anything? Jun 22 12:52:13 actually someone here @work said he is definately interested in buying the N9 Jun 22 12:52:26 so, gentlemen. let's make a new channel, #n950auctions, where our beloved opensource developers can bid for the single n950 that will eventually be distributed Jun 22 12:52:28 Doc: sigh Jun 22 12:52:29 it's not like they're short on reflow lines for manufacturing Jun 22 12:52:30 and he's a .NET dev... and I go.. you are aware this thing runs linux and at that not android? Jun 22 12:52:39 javispedro: :) Jun 22 12:52:44 * ShadowJK has 1.5 year warranty left on his N900, and a spare N900. I hope they last until a replacement is available :) Jun 22 12:52:51 Doc: Ah, you do not understand anything about BUSINESS STRATEGY Jun 22 12:52:59 ShadowJK, hmm only half a year left on warranty on mine Jun 22 12:53:01 Termana, there's hope and theres sensible. The N9 getting positive previews even from the likes of engadget should be a hint to nokia that theyre on to something decent, if it follows through with sales, or even if after sale reviews are positive except for the lack of continued support, it should be a big hammer of a wake-up call that supporting meego (AND wp7) is a sensible direction Jun 22 12:53:10 Doc: That is why you are not a CEO like Elop! Jun 22 12:53:16 * RST38h giggles happily Jun 22 12:53:17 but I still see new with warranty sold for like 200eur or so Jun 22 12:53:23 RST38h: business strategy is a myth, money governance not Jun 22 12:53:35 ruskie, basically I bought a second one because I thought Nokia Care had stolen my first one Jun 22 12:53:40 ahh Jun 22 12:53:47 nid0, I was mainly referring to people putting too much hope in seeing the n950 in future as a retail product Jun 22 12:53:52 don't think we get nokia care here Jun 22 12:54:11 just the local nokia importer that also runs the service(and has since forever) Jun 22 12:54:15 ruskie: and don't think that nokia cares Jun 22 12:54:16 :) Jun 22 12:54:18 ruskie, you get nokia don't care Jun 22 12:54:20 huhu easy Jun 22 12:54:35 well they cared enough to fix my n900 in 3 hours :) Jun 22 12:54:36 though sadly one has to haggle with them like with all other repair services here Jun 22 12:54:38 nid0, also, it's going to be very hard for Elop to suddenly back out of the Microsoft deal, even if the N9 sells really well. Jun 22 12:55:00 mece, someone had to go to nokia croatia and for them to slam down on this lot so they repaired the usb plug on his n900 Jun 22 12:55:10 Termana, nobody said they should back out Jun 22 12:55:13 there's no friggin way after the billion dollars of bribery microsoft already sent Jun 22 12:55:13 honestly, a product may get binned when it turns out it takes too long to market so it's obsolete on sales start. Jun 22 12:55:13 not here either, it actually cost like 40€ to get warranty service (and then it took 2 round-trips, a month each) Jun 22 12:55:18 Termana: why would he need to back out of the deal - If anyone can support 2 platforms it (should) be nokia, and plenty of other manufactures do Jun 22 12:55:30 oh waaaaaait. the EMMC image contains nothing but it's MyDocs Jun 22 12:55:39 Termana, hell nokia already supports quite a few Jun 22 12:55:43 but I never seen a company cancel a product prematurely "to do something different" Jun 22 12:55:44 I don't really see how WP7 has anything to do with MeeGo. They could exist parallel to eachother just fine IMO. Jun 22 12:55:57 or "supports" Jun 22 12:56:06 since Nokia really isn't that good with supporting anything that much Jun 22 12:56:06 Has anyone seen the contract between Nokia and Microsoft? We don't know if the contract has locked Nokia in to a WP7 plan Jun 22 12:56:07 because "THE DEAL" seemingly has Nokia's primery phone platform being WP7. No other one Jun 22 12:56:19 at least it looks like that. Or Elop is a damn fine troll. Jun 22 12:56:34 "primary" doesnt equal "only" though Jun 22 12:56:38 where is that "plan b is making sure plan a" works quote? Jun 22 12:56:52 Secondly, it will be a PR disaster for Elop and Nokia Jun 22 12:56:54 Termana, Nokia said they'll keep chugging out S40 devices Jun 22 12:57:00 javispedro, whatever, could still have MeeGo as superduper awesome phone, without it being primary. Jun 22 12:57:11 mece: no. just look at half the reviews. Jun 22 12:57:15 javispedro: It is absent, currently being analyzed by best Wall Street analysts and psychiatrists Jun 22 12:57:16 If Elop does not stick to the deal he made, people will continue to lose confidence in what Nokia is doing Jun 22 12:57:18 javispedro, which half? Jun 22 12:57:22 plans change. it took less than 6 months for elop to kill symbian and switch to wp7, from his "plan b is plan a" comment itll be roughly 6 months more to the release of the n9 Jun 22 12:57:24 mece: the gizmodo half. Jun 22 12:57:39 javispedro, the ones that didn't even look at the device you mean? Jun 22 12:57:45 Termana: that's logically impossible Jun 22 12:57:49 noone looked at the device tbh. Jun 22 12:58:10 In the very worst case, they can just buy some HTC WP7 phones and replace the logos with Nokia ones Jun 22 12:58:11 engadget looked at the device Jun 22 12:58:15 you can't lose nonexistent Jun 22 12:58:19 achipa too :) Jun 22 12:58:20 After all, this is what Microsoft has done with Zune Jun 22 12:58:23 DocScrutinizer, heh :p Jun 22 12:58:24 the engadget half is like "ooh, shiny ipod-style bezel", "meegotouchhome animations look fluid". Jun 22 12:58:39 while the gizmodo half is like "oooh, crappy maemo. bad boy!" Jun 22 12:58:45 and ... nokia should use android Jun 22 12:58:47 noone even ran an application Jun 22 12:58:53 javispedro: this is disturbing Jun 22 12:59:04 khertan, oh you are a little troll aren't you! ;) Jun 22 12:59:11 javispedro: I mean, Gizmodo fanboys disagreeing with Engadget fanboys is very disturbing Jun 22 12:59:17 but gizmodo and engadget is know to have plenty stupid comment Jun 22 12:59:31 i didn't read anymore comments on this site Jun 22 12:59:54 (if we can call that a site ... it s more a giant catalog of advert) Jun 22 13:00:05 well imo engadget looked at the device and said it was nice while gizmodo said "nokia releases a pointless device" and said nothing about the device. At all. Same did bbc. Jun 22 13:00:22 RST38h: it's not a profound disagreement though. Jun 22 13:00:29 the bbc listened to "industry watchers" which seems to = gizmodo. Jun 22 13:00:35 yep Jun 22 13:00:41 javispedro: Still, ain't they supposed to be the exactly same people? Jun 22 13:01:02 BBC? Since when did anyone look at the BBC for tech news? :p Jun 22 13:01:11 RST38h: well, the cult might not mandate how you bash the other phones =) Jun 22 13:01:25 well the bbc noticed the N9, but forgot to say anything about the device. Jun 22 13:01:32 anyway I'm out. tata Jun 22 13:01:43 Anyway, whoever of them turns out to be correct, teh Tentacled One is obviously using Gizmodo/Engadget as His personal feeding grounds. So people with the brains missing... Jun 22 13:02:20 hehe Jun 22 13:09:33 hi.. do you know which video output works on the N900 the best? Jun 22 13:10:00 ah, I wondered what happened to Jussi. Marketting manager for the N9 afaict (http://thenokiablog.com/2011/06/21/nokia-n9-ui/) Jun 22 13:10:24 800x480 h264 baseline profile Jun 22 13:10:31 main and high will not work Jun 22 13:10:36 Ovi Store, I thought that had been dropped? Or is it just the name that has been dropped? Jun 22 13:10:58 lardman: I guess the promo materials were done before Elop keworked "Ovi" brand Jun 22 13:11:19 Fair enough Jun 22 13:11:38 ShadowJK: thanks, but what about the codec output? opengl es? fbdev? XVideo for example is a bit slow as I can see.. Jun 22 13:12:36 thopiekar: aiui video is a special fbdev Jun 22 13:12:52 xv should work Jun 22 13:12:56 it's same backend as xv Jun 22 13:12:58 xv is what the default mediaplayer uses. Jun 22 13:13:43 also note that if you're trying to decode on CPU in software, 352x288 is probably max sane resolution Jun 22 13:14:00 ShadowJK: Depends on the CPU Jun 22 13:14:14 sigh Jun 22 13:14:39 * DocScrutinizer suggests RST38h gets his context buffer fixed Jun 22 13:14:43 as he said N900 I assumed the default N900 cpu overclocked to 600 MHz Jun 22 13:14:51 so. I wonder what replaces xv in wayland ;= Jun 22 13:15:12 javispedro: isn't xv basically about shipping frames off and aligning with vsync? Jun 22 13:15:21 what is an NOLO? Jun 22 13:15:23 Doc: *My* context buffer is firmly fixed! Jun 22 13:15:26 stskeeps: no Jun 22 13:15:34 ok, educat me Jun 22 13:15:35 +e Jun 22 13:15:48 Stskeeps: I can bet the answer is a "pure client library without any server dependencies at all"? Jun 22 13:16:20 vi__, bootloader Jun 22 13:16:42 stskeeps: it's about shipping frames in native video colourspace (YUV 12 bits per pixel) and native video resolution off to a hardware acceleratec colourspace transform and scaling Jun 22 13:16:54 vsync actually came to Xv as an afterthought Jun 22 13:17:29 hmm I'm using XVideo in MythTV but is is very slow.. is there another output that would be faster? Jun 22 13:17:36 ShadowJK: so, a yuv 12 wayland buffer used as a texture and then rendered/scaled to screen? Jun 22 13:17:39 or is it because of the high res? Jun 22 13:18:13 has anyone been able to use mediabox to control a dlna renderer? I can see my sony hifi in the renderer list, but I can't make it play anything Jun 22 13:18:20 ShadowJK: with help of gles? Jun 22 13:18:21 Stskeeps, also used to bypass any 2D/3D GPUs as they were too slow and inefficient for video Jun 22 13:18:24 Stskeeps: sloooooooooooooooooow Jun 22 13:18:32 mmkay Jun 22 13:18:33 maybe with texture streaming.. Jun 22 13:19:27 but I could see a client library wrapping all the omapfb tricks the server xv implementation currently does Jun 22 13:19:28 thopiekar: try -vo caca or aa both of those will be faster Jun 22 13:19:30 texture streaming sounds more likely Jun 22 13:19:38 although the quality is lower as it uses ascii to render Jun 22 13:20:23 after all, my understanding of wayland is that this is about moving spooling/sharing/resource allocation/... of gfx devices to kernel, so maybe apps talking directly to kernel makes more sense. Jun 22 13:20:43 (at least on desktop...) Jun 22 13:20:52 It's only relatively recently that PC graphics cards became fast enough to provide usablel video performance through 3D paths Jun 22 13:21:19 ShadowJK: but that is exactly the reason this is happening Jun 22 13:21:41 javispedro: well, people should have plenty ability to play with things, all my wayland work should be ready to play with sometime this summer Jun 22 13:21:49 if we still had slow, static, stupid gfx hw you'd hear noone talking about wayland Jun 22 13:21:49 javispedro: so n900, n950, n9 will be wayland capable Jun 22 13:21:53 Stskeeps: so will there be fremantle-theme-example-stskeeps? :P Jun 22 13:22:51 javispedro, it was fast for video, and for 3d geometry, but not for receiving, processing and displaying huge amounts of pixels :P Jun 22 13:22:52 joppu: for harmattan? nfi Jun 22 13:23:15 * SpeedEvil hates having to talk to people about wierd technical issues. Jun 22 13:23:26 whoops, yeah, that Jun 22 13:23:27 I still remember OS dev 101, where the trivial implementation of a UI server is basically give each app a piece of the framebuffer, and let each app draw there Jun 22 13:23:39 For some reason, today my DSL line is negotiating interleaving on, but RS forward-error-correction off. Jun 22 13:24:16 Damion_: using mplayer? Jun 22 13:24:18 SpeedEvil: I got DSL issues as well today Jun 22 13:24:18 I hope this "yuv buffer in wayland" isn't converted to rgb software anywhere, because that'd defeat the point and you'äd be better off letting the media player do that conversion Jun 22 13:24:26 javispedro: Ah, you even had UI implementation? Jun 22 13:24:41 javispedro: Not just scheduling and resource access? Jun 22 13:24:47 RST38h: nope, but read a few books on the topic Jun 22 13:24:49 Stskeeps: so how about it? Jun 22 13:25:03 joppu: no idea, look at the meego ones :P Jun 22 13:25:22 ah good, quite extensive contact sync capabilities Jun 22 13:25:25 thopiekar: I think -vo is mplayer syntax but loads of stuff, probably MythTV aswell, can do aalib and cacalib Jun 22 13:25:38 javispedro: Funnily, I did my first OS design circa 1990, with windowed (!) multiple-text-console-device (!!) OS running on 8080 :) Jun 22 13:25:49 either way the point is that wayland is not a new idea, but something that is a simplification that is now reasonable for the single reason that hw is more capable Jun 22 13:25:52 and there is more free memory Jun 22 13:26:03 javispedro: I think it died when the tape recorder chewed the cassette Jun 22 13:26:14 Stskeeps: I am right now, it looks like a mess of billion different image slices :D Jun 22 13:26:47 Thanks whoever in the Harmattan team decided to let us continue using SB, rather than the Meego OBS stuff :) Jun 22 13:26:54 lardman++ Jun 22 13:27:01 lardman: though autobuilder is OBS ;) Jun 22 13:27:16 well hidden from a mere developer like me thank God ;) Jun 22 13:27:35 osc build is so much easier :) Jun 22 13:27:41 A nice chroot clean every time :) Jun 22 13:27:59 X-Fade: well perhaps it would be ok, but the Meego instructions are terrible Jun 22 13:28:38 and just generally very confusing Jun 22 13:28:55 RST38h: I'm too young, my hobby OS just ran from grub =) Jun 22 13:29:16 ~seen konttori Jun 22 13:29:23 lardman: Yeahm well it depends on what you want to do. Jun 22 13:29:23 konttori <~konttori@net-57.nrpn.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 23d 5h 53m 48s ago, saying: 'genius6'. Jun 22 13:29:35 ~seen konttori_home Jun 22 13:29:36 konttori_home <~konttori@80-186-91-32.elisa-mobile.fi> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 16h 1m 55s ago, saying: 'night now all'. Jun 22 13:29:57 X-Fade: which to use I presume you're talking about, not the poor instructions ;) Jun 22 13:30:09 lardman: apt-get install osc; osc co -A https://api.pub.meego.com home:lardman:yourapp ; osc build Jun 22 13:30:12 lardman: Done ;) Jun 22 13:30:13 but yeah I can see the appeal for system building for sure Jun 22 13:30:35 too complex! Jun 22 13:30:41 Ok, I leave out the cd into dir etc. But still :) Jun 22 13:30:49 I mean, you're comparing it to a system where you just pushed the .dsc and .tar.gz dammit Jun 22 13:30:56 X-Fade: but there are questions, like why all the colons, how do I create this home:lardman:yourapp thing, etc. Jun 22 13:30:59 this one tries to force some structure and good practices onto you Jun 22 13:31:08 not saying it's not bad, but it's.. .complex. Jun 22 13:31:19 s/it's not bad/it's bad :P Jun 22 13:31:21 and what repos do you need for osc Jun 22 13:31:36 if someone would write a "moving from scratchbox to osc" wiki page that would be great Jun 22 13:31:50 ShadowJK: it is in ubuntu repo too. Jun 22 13:31:51 X-Fade: But what goes *in* the dir? Jun 22 13:31:59 can somone email elop and ask for my NIT back? Jun 22 13:32:11 "too"? Jun 22 13:32:32 Jaffa: tarball, .dsc and debian.tar.gz, specfile if you want :) Jun 22 13:32:46 X-Fade: this is what needs to be written in the above page Jun 22 13:32:47 ShadowJK: Yes, unstable can also be downloaded from opensuse. Jun 22 13:32:49 X-Fade: If we can combine your example, with answers to lardman's and my questions, in a simple worked example for a printf("Hello world") app targetting Harmattan deb & MeeGo RPM; that'd be fab Jun 22 13:32:59 X-Fade: Oh, so you still have to do the dpkg-buildpackage yourself? Jun 22 13:33:18 (to get the tarball & .dsc) Jun 22 13:33:19 Jaffa: It is a builder, not a packager. Jun 22 13:33:40 X-Fade: not a problem, just a lack of understanding on our part Jun 22 13:33:54 But local building gives you a nice chroot. Where you can work on your package too. Jun 22 13:33:56 we need hand-holding remember ;) Jun 22 13:34:36 I have time to answer questions, but not to write complete documentation. So who can I bribe to try it out :) Jun 22 13:34:41 I so far thought you needed fedora, but I guess you need suse? Jun 22 13:34:44 And write it up :D Jun 22 13:35:58 X-Fade: if no-one else volunteers I will do it, but it won't be for a couple of weeks as I lack a net connection on my build machine atm Jun 22 13:35:58 ShadowJK: No, you need one of the supported OSes listed here: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/openSUSE:/Tools/ Jun 22 13:36:19 no Gentoo!! Jun 22 13:36:34 Or get it working in your flavour of OS. It is mostly python anyway. Jun 22 13:37:11 ugh Jun 22 13:37:16 X-Fade: how do I create my home:lardman dir? Jun 22 13:37:26 is that relative to the current dir? Jun 22 13:37:34 if only apt-get install build-essential would work ondevice it'd be so much simpler :D Jun 22 13:37:45 lardman: go to https://build.pub.meego.com, log in and click on 'create home project'. Jun 22 13:37:49 what do the colons do? Jun 22 13:38:03 It is just a separator. Jun 22 13:38:14 btw, what's my password for cobs? Jun 22 13:38:16 See it as a tree. Jun 22 13:38:21 ah, same as meego.com Jun 22 13:38:21 meego.com account. Jun 22 13:38:38 If you have requested to have access :) Jun 22 13:38:45 yesterday :) Jun 22 13:39:08 * ShadowJK thought this was about crossbuilding on your pc :) Jun 22 13:39:25 Yeah, it can be. Jun 22 13:39:31 "Oh, Nokia, shut up and take my money!" Jun 22 13:39:35 best comment all day Jun 22 13:39:48 But you can also use it to develop your app locally in a chroot without having to mess with scratchbox. Jun 22 13:39:52 X-Fade: so one should do all development in the home project? Or one can create new projects? Or sub-projects of the home project? Jun 22 13:39:57 Sazpaimon_: and we call Apple a cult... Jun 22 13:40:14 lardman: Whatever you want. You can create subprojects. Jun 22 13:40:36 lardman: You should see it as repositories. So you can have multiple, you put packages in repositories. Jun 22 13:40:47 ok Jun 22 13:40:55 which application should I test this with... Jun 22 13:41:23 So I've created my home project, now I can add packages to it, what are these? From some repo, or are these the things I'm building? Jun 22 13:41:46 X-Fade: So you can have multiple projects in your home dir with different targets? (e.g. Fremantle, Harmattan, MeeGo, ...) Jun 22 13:42:05 Jaffa: Yes. Jun 22 13:42:20 Jaffa: https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=uxlaunch&project=home%3Axfade Jun 22 13:42:31 so does "My Projects" create projects within the home dir? Jun 22 13:42:45 rather than some larger namespace? Jun 22 13:43:05 lardman: My projects will show you everything you are involved in. Jun 22 13:43:11 toooooooooooooo complex Jun 22 13:43:13 =) Jun 22 13:43:40 javispedro: I know, I'm just trying to work out what's going on so that I can start a wiki page with a simple example Jun 22 13:43:54 X-Fade: how do I create a sub-project then? Jun 22 13:44:03 lardman: yes, I'm trying to follow here, I already have a home project too Jun 22 13:44:39 lardman: Actions -> create subproject. Jun 22 13:45:00 cool, thanks Jun 22 13:45:06 lardman: Or Advanced -> subprojects Jun 22 13:45:24 where shall I stick this wiki page? Maemo or Meego? Jun 22 13:45:33 lardman: both. Jun 22 13:45:47 lardman: a future council might decide to move fremantle to obs Jun 22 13:45:47 Maemo for the time being then Jun 22 13:46:02 lardman: I would've said MeeGo since it's build.pub.meego.com Jun 22 13:46:16 X-Fade: Are their best practices for home project Title & Description? Jun 22 13:46:22 Jaffa: yeah but I don't know whether I have access to the wiki, I've never tried it Jun 22 13:46:34 lardman: Should do, it's all shared signon Jun 22 13:46:47 Jaffa: No, not really. You should see it as your PPA. Some people are tidy, some make a mess :) Jun 22 13:47:10 any thoughts on naming scheme if it's to be in the meego.com wiki? Jun 22 13:47:15 path, etc? Jun 22 13:47:22 developer.nokia.com is awesome. Yesterday I aplied 3 times for launchpad, had to fill lengthy query forms, and finally got to a page "your application been accepted" but trying to enter launchpad told me "permission missing". Today I visited same link "apply for individula membership at launchpad" and there showed up some new form "please first tell us about why you want to join".... Now they got "blablabla" in this filed which turned out Jun 22 13:47:23 to be the only thing to fill in today and got sent immediately when I supposedly enetered the huge page 2 via that ok-button Jun 22 13:47:50 DocScrutinizer: forget about launchpad. I register early this year and still waiting Jun 22 13:48:36 no denial, no refusal, no emails at all... just a "still processing your application" page when logging in Jun 22 13:49:30 I think I'll go for this: http://wiki.meego.com/OBS/Scratchbox_to_OBS_in_baby_steps Jun 22 13:49:31 aah, I only got that "already processing your application" when I spinned in that endless loop yesterday, first and second time Jun 22 13:49:31 lardman: Start with http://wiki.meego.com/Getting_started_with_OBS and we'll worry about everything else later :-) Jun 22 13:49:39 oh ok Jun 22 13:49:52 third time I went directly to "you may join launchpad now" Jun 22 13:50:03 which told me "perms missing" Jun 22 13:50:14 Maybe mention that it is from a developer pov. Jun 22 13:50:20 lardman: Nothing so far is Scratchbox-related. Once you've got to the chroot, I imagine the difference between Scratchbox and OBS is limited Jun 22 13:50:32 mairas: How's Europython? Jun 22 13:50:32 true Jun 22 13:50:45 lardman: also, I think OBS and Scratchbox are not mutually exclusive Jun 22 13:51:02 ok, will skip that part then Jun 22 13:51:32 so. Jun 22 13:51:34 ShadowJK, yuv buffer in wayland? Jun 22 13:51:37 I have my subproject there Jun 22 13:51:46 where do I define the target platforms? Jun 22 13:51:53 javispedro: thanks for headsup. I'll forget about that developers.nokia.com stuff then, it's obviously one huge mess Jun 22 13:52:03 I know there are ogl shader fragments for doing the conversion, but I too hope for still being able to use the hardware yuv overlay Jun 22 13:52:13 DocScrutinizer: if they approve your application do tell, that means mine slipped out of the queue for some reason Jun 22 13:52:14 because that is ~20% power saving per frame Jun 22 13:52:30 even before the conversion from yuv to rgb is accounted for Jun 22 13:52:44 javispedro: I doubt they will approve rasoning "blablabla" ;-P Jun 22 13:53:34 * javispedro gets tired and leaves for the time being Jun 22 13:53:39 cya later Jun 22 13:53:46 cu javispedro Jun 22 13:53:54 cya Jun 22 13:55:19 http://www.apnews.com/ap/db_45585/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=PIELZhxQ Jun 22 13:56:44 X-Fade, really cool - but I'm really busy now. later! Jun 22 13:57:18 :) Jun 22 13:57:27 * Macer is holding off on the i told you so Jun 22 13:59:08 mairas: Hehe, enjoy! Jun 22 13:59:25 rushing to get a winmob phone out Jun 22 13:59:33 sad nokia......sad Jun 22 13:59:58 X-Fade: so what does osc do? Jun 22 14:00:12 seems to do a checkout then build Jun 22 14:00:25 does the checkout bring the code to your local machine? Jun 22 14:00:36 lardman: osc can basically do whatever the webinterface can do. Jun 22 14:00:40 Jaffa you going to the Intel AppUp in London ? SkillsMaster? Jun 22 14:00:42 Matter Jun 22 14:00:59 lardman: osc uses basically a svn like syntax. Jun 22 14:01:18 X-Fade: how would one use it? Like svn, checkout the empty project, add files locally, commit, then ask it to build? Jun 22 14:01:30 lardman: exactly. Jun 22 14:01:45 lardman: And you can build locally or remote. Jun 22 14:01:53 how does one specify that? Jun 22 14:02:11 lardman: On commit it will build remote automatically. Jun 22 14:02:16 anidel: I like Skills' Matter, but not going to AppUp Jun 22 14:02:25 lardman: And you can build it locally with osc build. Jun 22 14:03:01 oh I see, so if I commited a .doc file would it try to build that, or does it looks specifically for e.g. a .spec file? Jun 22 14:03:14 Jaffa: ok. I will be there, so I was hoping to meet... Jun 22 14:03:22 anidel: When is it? Jun 22 14:03:29 anidel: Not to say I couldn't... Jun 22 14:03:51 lardman: It would see that as a new revision and rebuild. It will then after build check if the binary changed and decide to publish, or not. Jun 22 14:04:10 Jaffa: the 5th Jun 22 14:04:13 of July Jun 22 14:04:20 X-Fade: I meant if my project only contains a single .doc file (for example) Jun 22 14:04:26 Jaffa: http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/events Jun 22 14:04:31 it's at 18:30-21:30 though Jun 22 14:04:36 or put another way, what does one need to put in the project to have it build itself? Jun 22 14:04:38 lardman: No, that won't work. Jun 22 14:04:39 anidel: Nicely after work. Jun 22 14:04:54 lardman: for meego: .spec and tarball. Jun 22 14:05:01 Jaffa: yeah :) that's why I can go. There'll be people from the MeeGo London Network as well Jun 22 14:05:05 anidel: However I think I'm on holiday, and've already been to an AppUp Application Lab. Jun 22 14:05:11 * Jaffa might let people at work know Jun 22 14:05:12 X-Fade: and for Harmattan? Jun 22 14:05:20 lardman: for debian like: .dsc tarball and debian.tar.gz Jun 22 14:05:20 okay Jun 22 14:05:27 cool, thanks Jun 22 14:05:50 lardman: debian.tar.gz is just your debian dir in a tarball. Jun 22 14:06:00 lardman: this way you keep packaging out of your source. Jun 22 14:06:40 ok cool Jun 22 14:06:59 lardman: You can also just add these files through the webinterface btw. Jun 22 14:07:39 oh ok Jun 22 14:08:11 For people who do not like command line stuff. (Who wouldn't :D) Jun 22 14:09:02 osc basically talks to the obs api and the webui does that too. Jun 22 14:09:22 webui is just a lot buggier Jun 22 14:09:35 Oh yes :) Jun 22 14:09:52 ok, so I've made a start: http://wiki.meego.com/Getting_started_with_OBS Jun 22 14:11:23 lardman: Thanks. I've already made a tweak (having just checked apt-cache policy osc on Ubuntu Natty & Debian) Jun 22 14:11:44 tweak away :) Jun 22 14:12:06 we could do with some example files, or perhaps an example project space for people to look at Jun 22 14:12:21 so your "hello world" suggestion Jaffa Jun 22 14:12:25 Yeah, that would be good. Jun 22 14:12:28 lardman: Yeah, I'll do something tonight, I think Jun 22 14:12:52 I'm still internetless at home I'm afraid Jun 22 14:13:11 * lardman hopes TalkTalk get on with it Jun 22 14:16:08 Added some osc commands. Jun 22 14:19:42 http://www.slashgear.com/nokia-n9-android-app-support-promised-with-alien-dalvik-22160809/ Jun 22 14:19:54 dont you just love misinformation? Jun 22 14:20:28 just because alien dalvik exists doesnt mean oems are gonna pick it up Jun 22 14:22:24 X-Fade: lardman: Tweaked the formatting Jun 22 14:22:41 X-Fade: Should the home:[username] be home:[username]:[subproject]? Jun 22 14:22:44 Jaffa: Yeah, it was messed up. Thanks :) Jun 22 14:23:06 Jaffa: This is where you need technical writer skills. As you can do both. Jun 22 14:23:24 With out subproject, it will pull in everything. Jun 22 14:23:41 Let me put my humbleness a part...what happened? Xournal went from 123k downloads in second half of May to over 233k now? and it's now the Hot download?? Jun 22 14:23:50 And with one specified of course only the one you specified. Jun 22 14:23:54 Ah, cool. Jun 22 14:25:37 X-Fade: Changed the first bullet to clarify that a bit. Jun 22 14:25:45 X-Fade: lardman: Thanks - that's just what I needed! Jun 22 14:26:17 Link it up with my "How to get Qt SDK running with Harmattan" blog post :-) Jun 22 14:26:38 Jaffa: Now I only need to get the harmattan sdk imported and we can build for it ;) Jun 22 14:26:48 :) Jun 22 14:27:27 And all the finns are starting to disappear because of midsummer :) So busy times ahead. Jun 22 14:28:47 At least now when the sdk updates, every package that depends on it is being rebuilt. Jun 22 14:28:58 You got to love that :) Jun 22 14:31:03 X-Fade, summer means helicopters :) Jun 22 14:31:26 don't work too hard and great work to date on all the backend stuff \o Jun 22 14:32:37 lcuk: And have people with new devices without a build system :) Nah. I'll take a break later. Jun 22 14:32:46 heh Jun 22 14:33:35 RFC 12345: HTTP app deliver over helicopter link ;) Jun 22 14:33:58 Currently fighting with ruby. Jun 22 14:34:18 Well Passenger actually. Jun 22 14:41:33 ~ping Jun 22 14:43:20 ping * Jun 22 14:46:33 when did infobot die? Jun 22 14:49:30 Hum ... just see that KhtEditor never reach Maemo Extras Jun 22 14:49:31 huhu Jun 22 14:49:42 http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/khteditor/1.0.7-1/ <<< need some help :) test and vote for it please Jun 22 14:50:23 khertan: did you see my bugreport about khweeteur? Jun 22 14:50:32 docScrutinizer: today at 1600 european time Jun 22 14:50:32 merlin1991: not yet :) Jun 22 14:50:49 x29a: thanks Jun 22 14:51:16 ~ping Jun 22 14:51:16 ~pong Jun 22 14:51:24 ouch ... spammer on my bugtracker Jun 22 14:51:26 grr Jun 22 14:52:48 merlin1991: which bug number it was ? Jun 22 14:52:57 826 Jun 22 14:54:07 826 ? You re talking about khweeteur ... sorry i was looking at khteditor :) Jun 22 14:54:24 khertan: did you see my bugreport about khweeteur? Jun 22 14:54:30 I think I did talk about khweeteur :D Jun 22 14:54:56 you did it ... Jun 22 14:55:09 ZN6PySide15DestroyListener8instanceEv <- an other problem with PySide install Jun 22 14:55:25 could you apt-get update pyside libs Jun 22 14:55:56 did you install it from extras testing or devel ? Jun 22 14:56:00 devel Jun 22 14:56:06 hence 0.5.25-1 Jun 22 14:56:36 ah sry it's already in testing Jun 22 14:56:51 but yeah I did install from devel Jun 22 14:59:39 Okay, I'm here. (courtesy of docscrutinizer) Jun 22 15:00:12 * DocScrutinizer ponders Jun 22 15:00:41 ~ping Jun 22 15:00:41 ~pong Jun 22 15:00:53 Guest36683: ping Jun 22 15:00:53 ~pong Jun 22 15:00:53 ~ping Jun 22 15:01:02 LOL Jun 22 15:01:33 khertan: I did manually install libpyside1.0, now it segfaults when installing khweeteur instead Jun 22 15:01:51 friggin netsplits Jun 22 15:02:29 merlin1991: lol Jun 22 15:02:45 apt-get remove khweeteur Jun 22 15:02:51 apt-get purge Jun 22 15:02:55 apt-get install khweeteur Jun 22 15:03:28 segfault, lol http://pastebin.com/tzKnwyhY Jun 22 15:05:55 khertan: still the same segfault Jun 22 15:06:11 maybe the pyside packages / libs from devel are not sober? Jun 22 15:07:27 * DocScrutinizer sings "what's the use of getting sober, when you have to get drunk agaaaiiin.... Jun 22 15:07:50 merlin1991: it s possible Jun 22 15:08:50 hi ,i have a problem,when i run some pyqt script in x-termine,it suggest:Maemo applications must be run with the run-standalone.sh script! Jun 22 15:08:53 QGtkStyle was unable to detect the current GTK+ theme Jun 22 15:09:32 did you try running it with run-standalone.sh? Jun 22 15:09:46 but some other is ok, Jun 22 15:10:38 yes ,/usr/bin/run-standalone.sh: line 11: currency.pyw: not found Jun 22 15:13:43 Is there some sane way to recover the addressbook contents from an backup without restoring it? Something broken in mine causing the addressbook to crash. Jun 22 15:15:00 hmhm, what is APE in an fiasco image? Jun 22 15:15:27 oh,i find the answer:The error comes because you tried to run it with root privileges. Run it as user. Jun 22 15:15:28 hno: do you want to restore only the adressbook part from the backup, or is that one broken? Jun 22 15:16:33 merlin1991, i suppose its the adressbook that is causing the crash Jun 22 15:17:27 well the backup consists of simple zip files and the addressbook basically is a sqlite db Jun 22 15:18:07 everything works, except that its impossible to open the adddressbook and repeated popups about internal error adressboo terminated or something like those lines Jun 22 15:18:29 phone app seems to access the addressbook fine however. Jun 22 15:19:21 hno: why not restore? Jun 22 15:20:13 DocScrutinizer, because then the addressbook crashes again. Jun 22 15:20:29 err? Jun 22 15:20:50 you know what would be cool Jun 22 15:21:00 if the 3.5mm port of the N9 was like Jun 22 15:21:06 2 inches deep Jun 22 15:21:07 of course you first need to clean out your current database I guess Jun 22 15:21:15 and they came out with a component AV tv out cable Jun 22 15:21:41 which is probably completely possible Jun 22 15:21:55 the cable would be really thick, though Jun 22 15:22:49 but the plug would need to have 5 or so contacts Jun 22 15:23:09 Sazpaimon_: No, 4. And yes it already has that? Jun 22 15:23:20 why 4? Jun 22 15:23:29 Shared ground? Jun 22 15:23:30 can you do red and white through one contact? Jun 22 15:23:39 No it is composite. Jun 22 15:24:00 wouldnt it need 3 contacts for RGB and 2 sound contacts Jun 22 15:24:08 DocScrutinizer, if I restore the addressbook from the backup onto a clompletely cleaned phone then adressbook app crashes. Jun 22 15:24:40 ḯll dig around a bit in the sqlite to see if i find any clue there Jun 22 15:24:51 Sazpaimon_: google for ca-75u nokia Jun 22 15:24:55 X-Fade: you'd want audio as well, so 6 Jun 22 15:25:10 X-Fade, okay and? Jun 22 15:25:16 arf, harmattan kernels are taken from intrepid Jun 22 15:25:16 that's a standard composite video cable Jun 22 15:25:19 DocScrutinizer: Well, I want hdmi. But we're not getting that ;) Jun 22 15:25:21 I'm talking about component Jun 22 15:25:44 something like this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/740791.jpg Jun 22 15:25:50 hno: aaaah Jun 22 15:25:50 with the addition of audio Jun 22 15:26:08 Yeah, but a hdmi plug would be so much smaller ;) Jun 22 15:26:20 hno: the archives/backups are really easy structure Jun 22 15:26:27 i believe you can send a component signal wth sound through a 3.5mm port Jun 22 15:26:51 the plug would be slightly longer than a regular 3.5mm plug, but that wouldn't be a problem Jun 22 15:27:17 That would be a problem. A 3.5mm plug is big by todays standards. Jun 22 15:27:41 a couple more mm in length wouldnt be a big deal Jun 22 15:28:07 yes, an HDMI through microusb would be ideal, but I dont think itsgonna hapopen with the N9 (though neither would this) Jun 22 15:28:16 can the 3630 even do HDMI+sound? Jun 22 15:28:23 i thought it can only do HDMI video Jun 22 15:28:24 Sazpaimon_: Yeah, but then your battery would be 200mah smaller :) Jun 22 15:29:37 hmm, apparently the droid x does sound over hdmi too Jun 22 15:29:41 so i guess the soc can do it Jun 22 15:29:43 random-crap_thru_USB is usually a very poor idea, esp on devices that charge via USB as well Jun 22 15:30:35 personally I prefer DNLA streaming more than anything Jun 22 15:30:51 *DLNA Jun 22 15:31:00 I use it on my N900 all the time Jun 22 15:31:24 ~dlna Jun 22 15:31:33 it's really convenient to access my media library from all my computers in my house from one device Jun 22 15:31:38 ~dict dlna Jun 22 15:31:41 could not find definition for dlna Jun 22 15:31:42 DocScrutinizer, infobot is down remember :p Jun 22 15:31:46 oh nevermind Jun 22 15:31:56 ;-P Jun 22 15:32:05 DocScrutinizer, also known as UPnP Jun 22 15:32:24 I'm not infobot's master, but her elder brother Jun 22 15:32:24 basically you can stream your media from your home computers to your N900 Jun 22 15:32:49 when I'm at home, the media player will automatically show the computers on my network, and I can browse the content on them Jun 22 15:33:22 never got that to work here Jun 22 15:33:57 probably caused by a lack of redmond remote-controlled boxes around Jun 22 15:33:59 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWuCoe5q3hg here's a video showing it in action Jun 22 15:35:10 DocScrutinizer, just use mediatomb on any linux machine Jun 22 15:35:35 thanks Jun 22 15:35:49 i think mediatomb does transcoding too Jun 22 15:36:03 so if you need to play media the N900 wont support natively, you're covered Jun 22 15:37:00 cu tomorrow chaps Jun 22 15:37:31 no mediatomb for me :-/ Jun 22 15:37:48 why? Jun 22 15:37:55 not showing up? Jun 22 15:38:04 Gah, the addressbook is a BDB DB, not sqlite. Jun 22 15:38:06 package manages says "no matches found" Jun 22 15:38:23 DocScrutinizer, what OS? Jun 22 15:38:33 OSuse11.2 Jun 22 15:38:44 http://packman.links2linux.de/package/2154 Jun 22 15:38:49 right there in pacman Jun 22 15:38:50 * npm wonders why this crashes my browser (firefox4): http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/06/21/video-diving-into-the-nokia-n9-ui-and-specs/ Jun 22 15:39:04 thanks :-) Jun 22 15:39:54 hno: berkley, yup. Sounds about right Jun 22 15:40:21 still no word from nokia about my developer application Jun 22 15:40:57 Sazpaimon_: Really, give it 2 weeks. Jun 22 15:41:16 Is ther any available info on the BDB "schema" used? Jun 22 15:41:19 they'll give out all the N950s by then :( Jun 22 15:41:22 meh, my user registration took only some hours Jun 22 15:41:36 user registration was instant for me Jun 22 15:41:42 but signing up fort their developer launchpad Jun 22 15:41:46 Would you look at that Jun 22 15:41:47 that takes manual approval Jun 22 15:41:53 Boeing's PR took a page out of Apple's book. Jun 22 15:41:57 yeah, same here, and for javispedro Jun 22 15:42:02 The new interior design for Boeing's 737 passenger jet, the best-selling plane in aviation history, includes an innovation that is as radical as it is obvious: a flight attendant button that is situated well away from the reading light button and actually looks different from it. Jun 22 15:42:03 "I feel we came up with a really good improvement," Beverly Wyse, Boeing's General Manager for the 737 program, told reporters at the Paris Air Show. Jun 22 15:42:34 crashanddie: *bing* Jun 22 15:43:00 s/improvement/innovation/ Jun 22 15:48:33 that looks really innovative. now, can Nokia make a similarly styled statement of N9.. Jun 22 15:51:45 yet somhow they still managed to attach defective engines to the a380...? Jun 22 15:52:06 vi__: I guess you noticed the a380 wasn't built by boeing? Jun 22 15:52:29 Corsac: lol Jun 22 15:52:31 oopz Jun 22 15:52:48 I can no planez too Jun 22 15:53:56 a380 economy class==moderate suck Jun 22 15:57:20 (n9 kernel beta...) Fixes: NB#245107 - Disable secure trim feature for Hynix eMMC temporarily :/ Jun 22 15:58:51 Fixes: NB#236269 - Finally turn off /proc/component_version and bootreason :( Jun 22 15:59:08 wtf? Jun 22 15:59:29 vi__ get your trolling straight, boeing ain't the A380 constructor Jun 22 15:59:32 DOcScrutinizer from kernel of harmattan beta.... Jun 22 15:59:43 gathered as much Jun 22 16:00:02 Fixes: NB#198898 - METABUG: Get rid of /proc/component_version and bootreason Jun 22 16:00:08 remoo all Jun 22 16:00:09 rlinfati: bootreason sounds useful, what is component_version though? Jun 22 16:00:34 pabs3, show the hardware version and others... Jun 22 16:01:04 I love that Boeng is being told to close their new plant because it isn't a union shop. Jun 22 16:01:22 ~ $ IroN900:~# cat /proc/component_version Jun 22 16:01:23 product RX-51 Jun 22 16:01:25 hw-build 2101 Jun 22 16:01:26 nolo 1.4.14 Jun 22 16:01:28 boot-mode normal Jun 22 16:04:23 Fixes: NB#224014 - bad colour of pictures and videos from secondary camera... SECONDARY CAMERA ??? Jun 22 16:05:04 well... maybe is not for n9.... Jun 22 16:05:06 Front-facing Jun 22 16:05:08 On N9. Jun 22 16:05:17 So, what's new and exciting in the Harmattan SDK? Jun 22 16:05:22 Since I'm too lazy to read scrollback. Jun 22 16:05:45 hey DocScrutinizer did you know that NIN101 had to sent his n900 to repair and they still didn't sent it back, so he is now like 2 weeks without his n900, this is terrible, isn't it? Jun 22 16:07:24 rlinfati: what's wrong with frontcam in N9(50)? Jun 22 16:07:50 DocScrutinizer. the n9(50) has a front camera? Jun 22 16:07:57 definitely Jun 22 16:08:19 according to http://www.developer.nokia.com/dp?uri=http://sw.nokia.com/id/3744886f-69c1-4544-8ad3-72b352b4a832/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers_Release_Notes Jun 22 16:08:39 according to that doc both phones have a front facing camera Jun 22 16:08:53 Front-facing is listed in N9's specs Jun 22 16:08:56 Though without details. Jun 22 16:08:57 In the N950 the front facing camera is in top right corner and on N9 it is in the bottom right corner. The actual camera module is same. Jun 22 16:09:10 ahh, ok Jun 22 16:09:14 what changes is the lens Jun 22 16:09:40 or at least the N950 didn't go to Carl Zeiss to get thru their test, so no Carl Zeiss label at least Jun 22 16:10:58 No-charging (8mA) configuration added for OTG host :):) Jun 22 16:12:06 rlinfati: in kernel? Jun 22 16:12:22 yep... http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/k/kernel/ Jun 22 16:12:33 interesting Jun 22 16:12:38 sounds more like.. connecting n9 to a otg-host device Jun 22 16:13:11 because if connecting peripherals, you'd want boost Jun 22 16:13:51 in the ".config" has some references to OTG also.... Jun 22 16:15:25 first question: has it micro-B or micro-AB receptacle? Jun 22 16:16:14 for the rest kernel is irrelevant if the hw doesn't support it Jun 22 16:16:26 * Fixes: NB#198079 - Make 1GHz opp available on Lankku boards which support it Jun 22 16:16:26 * Fixes: NB#198077 - Enable Smartreflex on Lankku Jun 22 16:16:54 nothing unexpected there Jun 22 16:18:34 god, I'd love to be andre__ for an hour or two, browsing thru the Nokia bugtracker Jun 22 16:18:35 * Fixes: NB#198902 - /proc/component_version and /proc/bootreason deprecated :( Jun 22 16:19:26 looks like some of the first patches to get reverted Jun 22 16:19:36 * FM-radio reset gpio change for RM-696 S1.1 builds and onwards... the n9 is rm-696 and the n950 is rm-680/690 ? Jun 22 16:20:31 Fixes: NB#198750 - fix OOPS when destroying MMS network namespace.... *MMS network namespace* :) Jun 22 16:20:56 frals admitted he added MMS Jun 22 16:21:14 I think that's why Nokia hired him Jun 22 16:21:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U8jH_apD2k Jun 22 16:21:33 Slick looking device Jun 22 16:21:38 Can't believe they're not making in in scale. Jun 22 16:21:50 Barking mad. Jun 22 16:21:54 yep... but with a "network namespace"... ie, 2 AP working over the modem Jun 22 16:24:34 GeneralAntilles: THANKS! Jun 22 16:24:43 micro-B receptacle Jun 22 16:24:51 no OTG host Jun 22 16:25:44 * SpeedEvil is unsure about the keyboard layout Jun 22 16:25:52 usually micro-B means device can't act as USB host Jun 22 16:26:27 N900 been a special case where we made it act as host nevertheless Jun 22 16:26:48 Fixes: NB#186286 - Division by zero in kernel jijiji Jun 22 16:27:12 I'm usure about that fliping mechanism. Can see why carriers say "too flimsy" Jun 22 16:27:37 I still want to know: HOW THE HELL DO YOU LOOK AT MEEGO AND DECIDE: "Man, this is shit. Let's switch to Windows." Jun 22 16:27:58 DocScrutinizer: indeed. Jun 22 16:28:04 GeneralAntilles: well, in a rather sharp reversal that's exactly the question even engadget is asking now Jun 22 16:28:15 :) Jun 22 16:28:22 Simple, you go "Microsoft wants me to switch this company over to Windows, that's why they got me this job..." Jun 22 16:28:35 Jun 22 16:30:01 scratch that last line Jun 22 16:30:45 that's so plain obvious I just don't get it how Nokia could miss about that detail Jun 22 16:31:29 yeah, the engagdet editorial is nice Jun 22 16:31:33 and quite true Jun 22 16:31:40 but maybe they did work like hell since february Jun 22 16:31:49 honestly they could probably hire a 6 year old child and get the job done better than the elopocalypse Jun 22 16:34:30 Corsac, I expect they did. Jun 22 16:34:32 But even so. Jun 22 16:35:01 Who were didn't believe MeeGo and Nokia was capable of putting together something like the N9? Jun 22 16:35:12 It's just a matter of them getting out of their own way Jun 22 16:35:14 -EPARSE Jun 22 16:35:29 add MTP support to g_nokia ... ¿¿¿ MTP ??? Jun 22 16:36:16 Rephrased: We knew this was doable. Whatever state MeeGo was in when Elop found it, I don't see how you can just decide to nuke it. Jun 22 16:36:34 Worse, how can you get something like THIS together and still plan on nuking it. Jun 22 16:37:10 Support for Qt is a "traces of Symbian" feature? . . . Jun 22 16:38:26 Initial packaging for 2.6.32 series in Harmattan. Mon, 19 Oct 2009 -> 2 years of development ? :S Jun 22 16:38:37 Not surprising. Jun 22 16:38:44 It was announced in the end of 2009. Jun 22 16:38:45 rlinfati: at whole lot of people are using 2.6.32 Jun 22 16:39:03 They started work as soon as Fremantle stopped being actively developed. Jun 22 16:39:26 tbh, I think what elop's currently doing is more a halfway house from the "zomg he killed it" and "meego for everything!!1" sides. the spending graphics they gave out always showed that theyd continue with meego development and just downscale it, and hes always maintained that itll be "the next disruption" Jun 22 16:39:52 perhaps that was intentionally leaving the door open to revive it as a strategy quicker if they did end up putting out something really top notch Jun 22 16:39:54 GeneralAntilles: you ain't seen nothing. There may be *huge* nasty bugs in all dark corners of the system still Jun 22 16:40:14 Bugs can be fixed. Jun 22 16:40:18 Look at what they put together. Jun 22 16:40:21 just read http://www.developer.nokia.com/dp?uri=http://sw.nokia.com/id/3744886f-69c1-4544-8ad3-72b352b4a832/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers_Release_Notes Jun 22 16:40:32 It's impressive on a level a mobile device hasn't been since the iPhone launched. Jun 22 16:40:45 ugh, with the latest QtSDK 1.1.2, the freaking qemu emu doesn't work :/ Jun 22 16:40:56 yeah, it once took us >12 months to fix a bug in GPS Jun 22 16:41:20 did anyone notice the cleverness in saying it's made out of "polycarbonate" rather than saying "it's plastic"? :-) Jun 22 16:41:26 Cunning. Jun 22 16:41:31 though I have to agree (even while I kinda hate the gui) Jun 22 16:41:37 They should have refered to 'bullet-resistant polymer' Jun 22 16:41:56 consumers tend to want buttery-smooth interfaces more than flawlessly functionality though, the first is more exciting and drums up more interest Jun 22 16:42:18 petrochemical hydrocarbon polymer Jun 22 16:42:46 and it's pink! Jun 22 16:42:48 the gizmodos of the world are happy to bitch at having to navigate through a few symbian menus, but all bow down in praise at ios and it's inability to make an alarm clock work when time changes to DST and back. Jun 22 16:42:55 (ok, magenta :) Jun 22 16:43:01 Well, unresponsive interfaces and buttons/widgets you're unsure of whether you hit or missed will kill functionlality too :P Jun 22 16:43:18 Harmattan looks like its smooth and usable in ways Android and iOS can only aspire to. Jun 22 16:44:20 I'm idly wondering at the possibility of a replacement N9 case. Jun 22 16:45:47 Why would you want a replacement case? You don't mean ones like different colours and patterns and pictures and stuff? Jun 22 16:46:01 Get the black one and don't even investigate anything else Jun 22 16:46:05 :p Jun 22 16:46:51 If anyone buys cyan or magenta I will LART them Jun 22 16:46:55 hey guys Jun 22 16:47:07 Termana: I shall by cyan just to spite you! Jun 22 16:47:08 is is better to use glibjson or jsoc-c for maemo apps? Jun 22 16:47:10 buy* Jun 22 16:47:16 json-c even Jun 22 16:47:39 tbh, while im clearly going for the black one, the cyan one really doesnt look too terrible Jun 22 16:48:35 nid0, no. don't. you are not even allowed to encourage people to buy the other colours Jun 22 16:48:36 :p Jun 22 16:48:52 im encouraging my girlfriend to get the magenta one Jun 22 16:48:54 * MoonTiger waits for eveeyone to get over the new devices Jun 22 16:49:03 DocScrutinizer, ping Jun 22 16:49:10 not that I particularly want her to, but she hates pink anything with a passion and it's really funny winding her up Jun 22 16:49:19 nid0, You. Dun. Goofed. Jun 22 16:49:20 :p Jun 22 16:50:34 psycho_oreos: pong Jun 22 16:51:05 Seriously, is it not just insane to announce something like the N9 then fuck off for 4 weeks of vacation? Jun 22 16:51:12 This is the modern global consumer electronics market Jun 22 16:51:15 MoonTiger, Repententh that which have come from your mouth! Jun 22 16:51:29 That's bordering on gross negligence to your shareholders. Jun 22 16:51:29 * MoonTiger eats soap Jun 22 16:51:47 GeneralAntilles, really, the should have at least given a release date. Jun 22 16:51:51 they* Jun 22 16:52:13 Then everyone knows when to be hyped up, the blogs know when to start churning some news about it Jun 22 16:52:31 you NEVER get release dates Jun 22 16:52:47 DocScrutinizer, not from Nokia, no. Jun 22 16:52:55 just take it Jun 22 16:53:14 just take the release date? Shall I hack their servers? Jun 22 16:53:18 :p Jun 22 16:53:38 Seems it's not really the address book that causes my addressbook to crash. Probably something in settings somewhere. Jun 22 16:53:41 DocScrutinizer, almost had a question about making dbus-scripts auto initiate, but that was noted in wiki :). Now to another curious question in mind, I wonder how does one pair two bluetooth phones together without transreciving files? I mean its dead easy to do with headset where audio just goes through but not for example: two N900. I've tried using hcitool cc , etc but it pairs for only 2 or so seconds before disconnecting Jun 22 16:53:51 you noticed my rant of this morning, about osborne_effect? Jun 22 16:54:02 and associated freaky stuff Jun 22 16:55:09 psycho_oreos: sorry, I don't even get the idea Jun 22 16:56:12 I think I paired my 2 N900 without any problems, just the one of them had a profile missing so no proper sync possible Jun 22 16:56:35 (PR1.2 issue) Jun 22 16:57:29 DocScrutinizer, for some funny reason when a device is paired with N900 (usually a slave device), N900 doesn't even bother setting up flag "key", not that it would make such a huge deal but I wonder if that's the case with N900 sending/receiving stuff from other devices Jun 22 16:58:08 I mean I can sync and send/receive files between two N900, but I can't just simply have them connected to each other and do nothing :) Jun 22 16:58:09 never looked into it, and never touched hcitool Jun 22 16:58:14 *nods* Jun 22 16:58:33 went absolutely smooth using maemo GUI Jun 22 16:58:56 iirc Jun 22 16:59:05 it's quite some months since Jun 22 17:02:10 psycho_oreos: you tried "visible" ? Jun 22 17:02:37 heh I've been constantly tinkering with mine, finding all the unusually missing backend bits and tried to add them in. I personally deem them as nuisances but *shrugs* Jun 22 17:03:41 DocScrutinizer, its not the question of visibility :) I've got it paired for 2-3 seconds whilst visible Jun 22 17:04:50 I'm thinking now its most likely something to do with the RFC specifications of bluetooth. That you cannot pair a device without doing anything else, unlike wireless where you can stay connected and do almost nothing Jun 22 17:05:04 I don't get your problem. Pairing is a persistent thing, means exchange of keys was done Jun 22 17:06:03 bluetooth doesn't ever stay "connected" Jun 22 17:06:16 and heck why should it? Jun 22 17:07:05 what I'm trying to achieve is a constant state of connection. If I turn on my BH-905 headset, I get the blue bluetooth icon and that remains blue until either I turn off BH-905 or it runs out of power. However, if I tried have another N900 connected to N900, the bluetooth icon will appear as blue for 2-3 seconds before it goes white again (meaning no active connections) Jun 22 17:07:23 if both devices don't send beacons, then how shall they know of each other unless actually doing sth useful? Jun 22 17:07:34 You need some sort of activity going on. Jun 22 17:07:38 yeah they don't call it "connected" in bluetooth terminology, they call it "paired" or something Jun 22 17:07:44 hm Jun 22 17:07:44 no Jun 22 17:08:06 no, paired is a permanent static state Jun 22 17:08:13 ahh Jun 22 17:08:19 it just defines device as trusted? Jun 22 17:08:20 soooooo..... no advice on glibjson or json-c as a better choice? :| Jun 22 17:08:27 "paired" means they have xchanged crypto keys. They can be paired while one is on the moon and other on mars Jun 22 17:08:54 [2011-06-22 19:02:54] I don't get your problem. Pairing is a persistent thing, means exchange of keys was done Jun 22 17:10:00 ok my bad, but I can send stuff to and fro, its just that it'll be annoying having to hack up a few loop scripts between the two so then I can see whats going on and maybe add new stuff to dbus-scripts Jun 22 17:10:22 I thought pairing was more than just exchanging, forgive my naiveness :) Jun 22 17:11:07 if need to have some activity going on. like a pan connection, headset connection, active file transfer or something Jun 22 17:11:46 guess I could also try PAN connection, heh one being PAN daemon/host and the other being the client Jun 22 17:12:23 psycho_oreos: I'm rather sure you're trying to do sth you're not supposed to do that way Jun 22 17:13:49 DocScrutinizer, I don't know just yet until curiousity kills the cat :) for now I'm curious to see if I can add extra layers of security (or false sense thereof) and see if it still works Jun 22 17:13:50 there are different profiles and it seems you are trying to use an inappropriate profile for sth that's not really working with that Jun 22 17:14:30 psycho_oreos: BT is considered damn safe Jun 22 17:14:41 secure rather Jun 22 17:14:46 hey guys Jun 22 17:14:50 probably not as yet :) for now this little "hack" works with my headset Jun 22 17:14:57 any news in Maemo land? Jun 22 17:15:34 DocScrutinizer, somewhat :) packets can still be sniffed with certain CSR chipset, and then I recall of that old MiTM attack on bluetooth where one was able to listen to another person's phone calls Jun 22 17:15:48 I guess paranoia got the better of me at this point :) Jun 22 17:15:51 psycho_oreos: sorry, I can't help with that amount of missing info Jun 22 17:15:55 DocScrutinizer: i didnt admit to any such thing ;-) i admitted i was hired for MMS ;) Jun 22 17:16:40 frals: ok ok Jun 22 17:16:49 DocScrutinizer, the missing extra part of when bluetooth headset for example is paired with N900? or just bluetooth security? :) Jun 22 17:17:05 DocScrutinizer: just to make sure none gives me credit for something i didnt do :) Jun 22 17:18:11 frals: whatever, I'd be kinda strange when Nokia hires you for MMS and nevertheless doesn't support MMS in next major release Jun 22 17:18:19 it'd* Jun 22 17:18:29 DocScrutinizer: yeah ;) Jun 22 17:19:23 was just referring to your "...then maybe I've done my bit" OWTTE Jun 22 17:20:25 might have gotten that wrong Jun 22 17:20:27 thanks for the input DocScrutinizer ; ShadowJK :) going to look more into it probably on weekend before writing it to my blog Jun 22 17:20:58 psycho_oreos: check the profiles and their properties and usecases Jun 22 17:21:44 psycho_oreos: also reading up some wikipedia bits sometimes really helps Jun 22 17:21:57 iirc the BT article wasn't bad Jun 22 17:22:22 if you have a loop AND involved you're probably going to kill the standby battery life from 10 days to 10 hours ;p Jun 22 17:22:26 or worse Jun 22 17:22:40 DocScrutinizer, at this point in time I'm thinking its not to do with profiles in particular, its something that wasn't set by default with N900 or maemo or even linux. My knowledge of bluetooth isn't that broad but at this point in time I'm going to go by something that Nokia didn't bother to implement Jun 22 17:23:28 too fuzzy for me Jun 22 17:23:35 good luck anyway Jun 22 17:24:39 ShadowJK, going to leave them charged (i.e. hooked up to power point) and hoping that I'm quick enough to get to the bottom of the situation before I kill off battery power. If anything it'll be the targeted device which would be my older N900 :) Jun 22 17:25:05 DocScrutinizer: it was to the software in general, shouldve clarified :) Jun 22 17:25:25 i shouldve* Jun 22 17:25:50 DocScrutinizer, thanks :) Jun 22 17:25:55 frals, fmms_h has been tested I hope ! Jun 22 17:27:24 lcuk: or maybe hMMS? ;) Jun 22 17:27:49 ;) Jun 22 17:28:02 lcuk: sadly no, i dont consider it needed for harmattan... hopefully i can put it on MeeGo N900 CE during my (short) vacation :) Jun 22 17:28:26 frals, the principles of fmms are needed on all devices Jun 22 17:28:29 (no GeneralAntilles, my vacation probably won't be until the device is shipping so no worries ;)) Jun 22 17:33:05 http://gizmodo.com/5814394/army-gets-how+to-guide-for-zombie-invasion Jun 22 17:36:07 frals, yes, but that just means we'll have working MMS. Jun 22 17:36:10 What about the REST of it? :P Jun 22 17:37:03 GeneralAntilles: ;) Jun 22 17:40:43 the REST? Jun 22 17:53:52 DocScrutinizer, i.e., everything else needed to get from "Irritating tease" to "Device in my hands". Jun 22 18:01:55 I admit I'm in love with N950, since that youtube clip. Might change when actually using that friggin capacitive touchscreen Jun 22 18:02:17 DocScrutinizer, you gonna apply for one? Jun 22 18:02:35 Platform stuff isn't a priority, I guess. Jun 22 18:02:37 But still. Jun 22 18:02:57 I simply can't figure how you'd possibly highlight text in a shell or whatever, to c&p. Just for instance Jun 22 18:03:23 It's a pain Jun 22 18:03:24 Doable Jun 22 18:03:25 but a poin. Jun 22 18:03:33 pain* Jun 22 18:03:39 konttori suggested I should apply, he might try to make it happen Jun 22 18:04:59 qgil and Texrat are also involved in the selections (community-side, anyway) Jun 22 18:05:16 seems he thought it could help when I have a look at it Jun 22 18:06:23 Hope so. Jun 22 18:06:50 I've tried for the community cohesion, and documentation side. As well as the webproxy thing I've been going on about Jun 22 18:07:10 It would be cool if that was irrelevant, and the S40 server protocol were available. Jun 22 18:07:24 (for web compression) Jun 22 18:08:01 duh, they got an own protocol there? Jun 22 18:08:08 I assume so. Jun 22 18:08:13 sybian S40? Jun 22 18:08:18 I'm not aware of any open compressing proxy. Jun 22 18:08:20 yes Jun 22 18:08:29 It was in the speech before the important one. Jun 22 18:08:30 mhm Jun 22 18:08:51 who's hosting that? Jun 22 18:08:55 'cloud services' which reduce the data going to the phone by 90% Jun 22 18:09:15 Good question, it could be nokia, or in principle the carriers. Jun 22 18:09:41 If it's the carriers, it lets them do interesting things like put in place governmental firewalls, which could be useful for some markets Jun 22 18:09:56 yeah, no matter what it's kinda meh for me. Also my data volume doesn't need such compression really Jun 22 18:10:38 does n9 have termial app. Looking at the package list at least it seems that osso-xterm has been removed? Jun 22 18:10:51 MUHAHAHA Jun 22 18:11:07 ""it's not a computer, it's an iPhone-me-too"" Jun 22 18:11:17 isn't osso-xterm a gtk app? Jun 22 18:11:36 i don't know Jun 22 18:11:50 yes, think so Jun 22 18:13:20 honestly, what's been the first thing you've shown to your best friends when you got the N900? Right, xterm... "now can you do THIS on *your* smartphone?" Jun 22 18:13:31 DocScrutinizer: I was on 3G only for a few days - it's hard to browse for an hour and not hit >10M Jun 22 18:13:44 hmm. Jun 22 18:13:49 * SpeedEvil tries to recall. Jun 22 18:13:55 DocScrutinizer: the xterm doesnt impress my SO Jun 22 18:13:57 i wonder if we actually have cpufreq/dvfs on modern kernels for n8x0 Jun 22 18:14:03 Actually - I think it was live updating webpages in the task manager Jun 22 18:14:07 but an app I can write DOES Jun 22 18:15:18 DocScrutinizer: any jailbroken iphone can do that Jun 22 18:15:27 want to buy: N950 Jun 22 18:15:35 cloudyLights: you can write apps for android, iPhone, even symbian - if you *can* Jun 22 18:15:59 not ON the device during the way to work.... Jun 22 18:16:06 but... most people don't give a crap about the terminal Jun 22 18:16:11 I only use it for IRC Jun 22 18:16:23 Choom: yep, and my wristwatch can do that as well Jun 22 18:16:26 so long as there's ssh, I'm served Jun 22 18:17:13 it's only a phone... Jun 22 18:17:22 (it's only a model) Jun 22 18:17:25 for my boss I only need openvpna and ssh and a keyboard Jun 22 18:17:30 camelot! Jun 22 18:17:30 go get your "phone" somewhere else Jun 22 18:17:43 but I like python,hildon and gtk Jun 22 18:18:02 Choom: N900-> "it's NOT a phone, it's a NIT computer" Jun 22 18:18:35 still I hope it comes with a terminal Jun 22 18:18:50 and multitouch text selection Jun 22 18:19:16 Hello ladies Jun 22 18:19:17 Choom: it won't - to satisfy those who say "it's just a phone" Jun 22 18:19:31 I thought I'd come in here and see how much of the N9 news you're getting :) Jun 22 18:19:48 haha Jun 22 18:20:15 s/news/flack-from-lusers/ ;) Jun 22 18:20:30 I actually didn't mean to stick the 'l' in there O_O Jun 22 18:20:43 if it doesn't, someone will certainly port one Jun 22 18:20:46 lusers like those who still think kbd is a great idea? Jun 22 18:21:01 I don't care, I've got a Bluetooth compact keyboard. Jun 22 18:21:07 I'm more miffed it doesn't have a stand :P Jun 22 18:21:29 stands are out Jun 22 18:21:44 but you can make one Jun 22 18:21:52 tmo certainly has an abundance of retarded topics at the moment. Jun 22 18:22:55 well, N9 isn't on *my* wishlist for next xmass at least Jun 22 18:23:16 I don't care, I've got a Bluetooth compact keyboard.I want it, but I probably wont pay for one, so meh :) Jun 22 18:23:24 DocScrutinizer: is n950? Jun 22 18:23:31 not really Jun 22 18:23:40 What does it lack that you'd like Doc ? Jun 22 18:23:47 though I love the design Jun 22 18:24:13 I'm gonna get it, just because it's a prettier looking N900 ;) Jun 22 18:24:17 alterego: quite probably a way to highlight text in arbitrary apps, for c&p, to start with Jun 22 18:24:30 The only downgrade as far as the N900 is concerned is the lack of micro sd really. Jun 22 18:24:33 And stand I guess. Jun 22 18:24:46 engadget likes meego / n9 http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/22/editorial-dear-nokia-you-cannot-be-serious/ Jun 22 18:24:57 lack of any storage media slot actually another point Jun 22 18:25:02 major fail Jun 22 18:25:10 whaa Jun 22 18:25:20 Yeah, it sort of removes the possibility of _any_ hardware mods outside of USB host interface. Jun 22 18:25:34 i guess 64GB is enough tho Jun 22 18:25:48 usb host interface also flawed, ruling by N950 Jun 22 18:25:49 * monoid imagines how insane that would have sounded in 1987 Jun 22 18:25:49 It's not the storage, it's the ability to backup data on something that is less likely to die Jun 22 18:26:12 yeah scp over wifi isn't too fast Jun 22 18:26:18 With micro sd, it's easier to backup & restore data between devices. Jun 22 18:26:26 IT's not that, if your device fails .. Jun 22 18:26:30 monoid: enough for what? sure enough to backup your holiday shots from your real cam, but wait.... how to do that? Jun 22 18:26:32 does n950 have microsd slot? Jun 22 18:26:35 I do weekly backups onto microsd. Jun 22 18:26:40 monoid: no, neither do. Jun 22 18:26:47 monoid: nope Jun 22 18:27:07 Anyway, so now my backups will have to be done over the could. Jun 22 18:27:09 If it can be convinced to do USB host - ... Jun 22 18:27:09 ~cloud Jun 22 18:27:10 extra, extra, read all about it, cloud is an experienced Zaurus user Jun 22 18:27:21 ~alterego Jun 22 18:27:21 rumour has it, alterego is a nice person who is always ready to help with all kinds of weird stuff. he can also answer any Qt-related question Jun 22 18:27:22 SpeedEvil: I've heard it should work with USB host easier than the N900 Jun 22 18:27:37 hmm Jun 22 18:27:54 So much so, I think we plan on supporting it in N900 CE Jun 22 18:27:59 OMG Engadget is positive about damn Harmattan Jun 22 18:27:59 That is why I know about this ;) Jun 22 18:28:05 Hell froze. Jun 22 18:28:07 RST38h: yes, very positive. Jun 22 18:28:14 Toads flew. Jun 22 18:28:22 The BBC article and The Register were all "End-of-the-world" scenarious. Jun 22 18:28:27 ~scenarios Jun 22 18:28:34 what does that mean Jun 22 18:28:57 IT means they were spreading FUD about MeeGo being a dead end OS Jun 22 18:29:12 The usual crap, that no one really knows. Jun 22 18:29:26 alterego: a) docs say N950 and N900 are identical. b) N950 evidently has a micro-B receptacle that's per definition not capable to do OTG hostmode Jun 22 18:29:33 People should really have learned not to expect or even guess at what Nokia will do or wont do. Jun 22 18:29:50 DocScrutinizer: interesting, which docs? Jun 22 18:29:58 Have the N950 schematics been leaked? Jun 22 18:30:11 i guess something should show up on fcc soonish? Jun 22 18:30:13 heh? Jun 22 18:30:14 HR video showing the connector I think Jun 22 18:30:42 alterego: why do you think I need any schematics for the prev statement? Jun 22 18:31:01 DocScrutinizer: how else would you know this? Jun 22 18:31:09 know what? Jun 22 18:32:03 http://www.developer.nokia.com/dp?uri=http://sw.nokia.com/id/3744886f-69c1-4544-8ad3-72b352b4a832/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers_Release_Notes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U8jH_apD2k Jun 22 18:32:30 is all I need to tell you that N9 probably isn't designed to do hostmode Jun 22 18:33:13 or, if it is, the already messed it up again Jun 22 18:33:21 they Jun 22 18:33:35 m'hmm, and your reasoning? May I ask? Jun 22 18:33:41 hmm n900 is still a darn fine device Jun 22 18:34:01 alterego: can you please read my last 3 posts Jun 22 18:34:18 and [2011-06-22 20:27:15] alterego: a) docs say N950 and N900 are identical. b) N950 evidently has a micro-B receptacle that's per definition not capable to do OTG hostmode Jun 22 18:34:49 err N950 and N9 obviously Jun 22 18:34:58 friggin numbering Jun 22 18:35:25 Your last three statements require me to read through a massive document and watch a video, and even then, I don't know what you know. Jun 22 18:36:01 You know I'm not a hardware person :P Jun 22 18:36:16 the 'massive document' lists hw diffs between N9 and N950 - no USB mentioned. The video shows N950 with micro-B-USB Jun 22 18:36:40 Ah, okay. Jun 22 18:36:51 now what else need you of my precious knowledge? :-) Jun 22 18:37:04 release notes on the 950 sound like my 900 somedays Jun 22 18:37:05 Well, firstly I wouldn't take the dfact it's not mentioning anything about the USB :P Jun 22 18:38:31 ok, what's your rationeale then, except "I heard..." Jun 22 18:39:07 I'm just listing up indications Jun 22 18:39:12 I heard from Nokia employees about a strategy they were saying they wanted to emply in MeeGo Community Edition Jun 22 18:39:18 http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/05/nokia-n950-n9-meego-device-step-closer-release/ Jun 22 18:39:20 I don't see why the connector really matters? Jun 22 18:39:21 PenTile OLED Jun 22 18:39:23 Kill me. Jun 22 18:39:24 n950 hinge details. Jun 22 18:39:35 That... Does not look very robust. Jun 22 18:39:43 well, then you probably are on same page with Nokia Jun 22 18:39:44 what is bad about pentile oled GeneralAntilles ? Jun 22 18:40:16 monoid, it screws up small details. Jun 22 18:40:20 Like 1-pixel lines Jun 22 18:40:23 and small text Jun 22 18:40:29 alterego, if I'm not mistaken, the N900's USB port lacks the ID pin Jun 22 18:40:33 You end up losing usable PPI. Jun 22 18:40:36 it is not a rectangular array? Jun 22 18:40:36 which is needed for OTG Jun 22 18:40:37 GeneralAntilles: is this because it lacks anyway of knowing when something is plugged in to automatically enumerate? Jun 22 18:40:55 MohammadAG: we're not talking about OTG :P Jun 22 18:40:56 so if it's the same port on the N9, we can have a hacked hostmode, but not OTG Jun 22 18:41:07 MohammadAG: that is what we're talking about. Jun 22 18:41:12 http://www.allaboutmeego.com/gallery/item/Nokia_N9_hands-on_gallery.php Jun 22 18:41:16 Look at the GPS closeup. Jun 22 18:41:17 MohammadAG: not really, the receptacle has the ID pin and it's also connected. alas to the wrong chip Jun 22 18:41:44 DocScrutinizer, so wait, with some HW mods we could have OTG? Jun 22 18:41:57 in theory yes Jun 22 18:42:05 DocScrutinizer: so it's been inside for 1:35 minutes? :P Jun 22 18:42:13 GeneralAntilles: you mean the fake 3D thing? Jun 22 18:42:13 practically that's a really nasty hw mod Jun 22 18:42:32 SpeedEvil, no, the messed up subpixel arrangement. Jun 22 18:42:33 GeneralAntilles: oh Jun 22 18:43:01 GeneralAntilles: Closups of dislays can be bogus due to moirre Jun 22 18:43:14 GeneralAntilles: haha, you found our about how OLED counts pixel? Jun 22 18:43:22 I've yet to see an OLED display that doesn't look like shit in this area. Jun 22 18:43:27 out* Jun 22 18:43:34 N950 is LCD Jun 22 18:43:45 Well, I'm probably not getting one of those. Jun 22 18:43:49 yup, hooray for that Jun 22 18:44:02 the lines look jittery Jun 22 18:44:09 AMOLED is a shiny fake Jun 22 18:44:35 well it has enough resolution anyway Jun 22 18:44:41 AMOLEDS were very short lived in the tech press weren't they. Jun 22 18:44:55 I remember a year or two ago it's all people were talking about "Is it AMOLED?!?!?! IS IT AMOLED?!?!?" Jun 22 18:45:05 And now they're like "I hope it's not AMOLED!" Jun 22 18:45:10 wears out (ghost shadows burning in), it's too dim in bright light, and it has that weird way they tell you R G B are 3 pixels Jun 22 18:46:19 also amoled usualy not guaranteed to last longer than maybe 2 years Jun 22 18:46:32 oxidation problems mainly Jun 22 18:46:37 amoled is horrible Jun 22 18:46:59 so... why is every stupid mobile blog writing about how better the n9 is to the n950? Jun 22 18:47:21 probably because amoled looks so much better than lcd Jun 22 18:47:27 oh really Jun 22 18:47:31 yes, really :p Jun 22 18:47:31 PIXELS Jun 22 18:47:31 because the have seen neither of the both Jun 22 18:47:39 I WANT FULL OF THEM Jun 22 18:47:42 Meh, I don't care, it's not like I'm going to pay for one .. Jun 22 18:47:48 *looks at n9* *looks at n950* Jun 22 18:47:53 alterego: i want to pay for a n950 :( Jun 22 18:47:57 ye, n9 screen looks better to me :p Jun 22 18:48:09 better for what Jun 22 18:48:18 Better black levels Jun 22 18:48:20 as in "not worse"? Jun 22 18:48:26 i want my computers to have proper pixels Jun 22 18:48:42 frals: go out into the bright daylight you cave amphibian Jun 22 18:48:43 * GeneralAntilles too Jun 22 18:48:53 DocScrutinizer, hypocrite. :P Jun 22 18:48:58 that will change your mnd Jun 22 18:48:58 Hahah Jun 22 18:49:04 Hey-ho, javispedro. Jun 22 18:49:05 DocScrutinizer: was using it from ~15-19 straight in the sun, it worked ;) Jun 22 18:49:05 i thought the proper term was "basement dweller" Jun 22 18:49:12 not the n950 thou Jun 22 18:49:26 kerio, frals is special. ;) Jun 22 18:49:37 no basement? Jun 22 18:49:43 I also need to decide what to do with my three N900s, do I keep them, do I sell them. Jun 22 18:49:45 hello Jun 22 18:49:50 frals: nice, I like to hear hw success stories Jun 22 18:50:02 i live in Finland, its almost always dark here, regardless if you are in a basement or not :P Jun 22 18:50:08 seems they picked a particularly good one then for N9 Jun 22 18:50:11 anyway, it's clear that nokia should've just dropped the n9 and made only n950s Jun 22 18:50:23 DocScrutinizer: this is all my personal opinion, of course. but side by side i pick n9 display anyday Jun 22 18:50:42 They should've made both. Jun 22 18:50:47 idd. Jun 22 18:50:51 There's a market for both. Jun 22 18:50:53 frals: How is small text on the n900? Jun 22 18:50:55 err Jun 22 18:50:56 n9 Jun 22 18:51:00 n9-00 Jun 22 18:51:04 :) Jun 22 18:51:16 Or detailed graphics Jun 22 18:51:20 define small? :) Jun 22 18:51:26 not really, if i were to choose i'd choose the n950 every time Jun 22 18:51:28 isn't that a pain, could they call it frooble instead of N9-00? Jun 22 18:51:30 80*25 courier of course. :) Jun 22 18:51:39 give me a link to something i can check on the device ;) Jun 22 18:51:48 did you overclock alterego ? Jun 22 18:52:12 frals: 1-pixel checkerboard, black and white Jun 22 18:52:14 frals: Does it have swype? Does it work? Jun 22 18:52:25 ask any wom... nvm, bad joke Jun 22 18:52:36 DocScrutinizer, does EE include CS? Jun 22 18:52:38 very sad so few n950s to go to devs Jun 22 18:52:44 frals: Oh - yes - can it be overclocked. :) Jun 22 18:52:46 MohammadAG, no. Jun 22 18:52:52 MohammadAG: nope Jun 22 18:53:10 1GHz singlecore is too slow! :) Jun 22 18:53:34 kerio: link a pic and ill look at it, but since the UX guidelines recommended not to use single pixel lines i assume thats the weakness of the display Jun 22 18:53:48 no shit, it's amoled Jun 22 18:53:51 SpeedEvil: dunno, does it list swype on specifications? re overclocking -- no clue Jun 22 18:54:11 monoid: useless reasoning - devs actually should develop on the device the plan as target platform Jun 22 18:54:12 kerio: do you regularly have to watch 1x1px checkers on your phone? then you should probably look for something else ;) Jun 22 18:54:25 frals: There was a video showing swype configurations Jun 22 18:54:32 DocScrutinizer: are the internals the same? Jun 22 18:54:33 Indeed. Jun 22 18:54:38 frals: several sites listing the bundled apps list swype as included Jun 22 18:54:39 yes Jun 22 18:54:41 frals: plenty of DEs use single-pixel lines for stuff Jun 22 18:54:48 1*1 pixel is fairly irrelevant - if your eyes cannot reasonably resolve 1 pixel. Jun 22 18:54:54 xfce, lxde Jun 22 18:55:09 SpeedEvil: dunno tbh, im using swedish input and never seen swype support that Jun 22 18:55:40 How would you compare the MMS support? :) Jun 22 18:55:43 gimme graffiti over any kind of vkb everyday Jun 22 18:55:55 ohnoes, capacitive screen Jun 22 18:55:57 SpeedEvil: bah, thats unfair. ;) Jun 22 18:56:08 I could never hit 15wpm using grafiti Jun 22 18:56:17 I can hit 35 on n900 keyb Jun 22 18:56:32 speedevil: graffiti vs hw keyb is not fair Jun 22 18:56:36 I said vkb Jun 22 18:56:40 javisn900: No, it's not. Jun 22 18:56:57 javisn900: I care really quite little for fairness. Jun 22 18:57:31 you're not halping in bashing N9 though ;-P Jun 22 18:58:16 On balance - I really hope n9 sells, and will make efforts to make it sell. Jun 22 18:58:31 As I think it's one of the possible hopes for the future of a series of more open phones. Jun 22 18:58:49 Part of this is saying why I think it sucks, and then trying to think of ways tound the suckage. Jun 22 18:58:50 ack Jun 22 18:58:54 indoctrination complete! Jun 22 18:59:23 * GeneralAntilles was faster on N800 than N900. Jun 22 18:59:34 one feature that appears to be missing from N9 - a feature I LoOVE - is the FM xmitter. :( Jun 22 18:59:39 ooh, we got brainwash day in this chan, since almost 24h Jun 22 18:59:48 DocScrutinizer: SUBMIT! Jun 22 19:00:29 GeneralAntilles: ?? Jun 22 19:00:52 submit what? Jun 22 19:00:55 The last best hope for FOSS in mobile devices, DocScrutinizer. You must SUBMIT! Jun 22 19:01:03 (to the will of the MeeGo) Jun 22 19:01:14 haha Jun 22 19:01:15 generalantilles: much better kb! also, n950's might be the best keyb ever from the looks of it Jun 22 19:01:22 I like the size at least Jun 22 19:01:29 waiting to grasp the touch! Jun 22 19:01:39 if we ever get one that is! Jun 22 19:02:04 does the n950 have soft push keys or clicky keys? Jun 22 19:02:18 maybe palm will make a landscape webos device Jun 22 19:02:18 good question! Jun 22 19:02:47 i prefer clicky Jun 22 19:03:23 I think everybody does Jun 22 19:03:45 except that weird fool that just stops posting his answer ;-D Jun 22 19:04:09 we are really going to hate the coming days if there really is n950 scarcity Jun 22 19:05:20 because there are way more applicants now, and way less devices Jun 22 19:05:24 it is sad Jun 22 19:05:47 they have the production line and everything, they invest into Jun 22 19:05:56 and I do not exactly fondly remember the days when for ex. wazd didn't have one Jun 22 19:06:09 and then somebody (elop?) decide "no you may not have this" Jun 22 19:06:17 Nokia should start to sell N950 "as seen, no warranty" Jun 22 19:06:29 yes, or without an OS installed Jun 22 19:06:44 docscrutinizer: you think they can? in europe? Jun 22 19:06:54 I think they can Jun 22 19:07:04 OM guys shall know =) Jun 22 19:07:10 or lease them Jun 22 19:07:10 just properly declare the goods Jun 22 19:07:21 javisn900: ouch Jun 22 19:07:23 they went thru the hops I guess Jun 22 19:07:56 javisn900: actually we had no problems at all Jun 22 19:08:09 but if they did not ship with an installed OS, then you eliminate the 'useless consumers' and get only 'community members' Jun 22 19:08:23 i think my idea deserves consideration :) Jun 22 19:08:32 devices shipped off china, wit a 14day DOA warranty, plus 1/10 spare for resellers to handle repairs Jun 22 19:08:47 submit it to the novel prize comitee Jun 22 19:09:18 docscrutinizer: heh. Jun 22 19:09:49 good plan DocScrutinizer Jun 22 19:09:59 *nobel :P Jun 22 19:10:06 lol Jun 22 19:10:20 I was amazed it worked Jun 22 19:10:30 * alterego wonders where af-sb-init is .. Jun 22 19:10:40 Have they changed the name of the startup script in harmattan? Jun 22 19:10:55 meego- Jun 22 19:11:14 meego-run? Jun 22 19:11:21 nothing else? Jun 22 19:11:49 * DocScrutinizer wonders WHAT af-sb-init is Jun 22 19:11:56 DocScrutinizer, pain Jun 22 19:12:07 sounds like, yes Jun 22 19:12:55 can't make a story out of af Jun 22 19:13:06 application framework? Jun 22 19:13:14 foind out it's probably not autofocus Jun 22 19:13:18 meego-sb-session ah Jun 22 19:13:34 new eu law, websites may not place cookies without opt-in Jun 22 19:13:49 YEAH!!! Jun 22 19:13:58 ~lart cookies Jun 22 19:13:58 * Guest36683 rm -rf's cookies Jun 22 19:14:26 infobot: grow a brain! Jun 22 19:14:32 /me eats the cookies Jun 22 19:14:42 crap Jun 22 19:14:49 cookies are useful for sites to analyze their traffic and popularity Jun 22 19:15:23 heh Jun 22 19:17:33 amazon.de has 1 N900 left Jun 22 19:17:34 so.... the N9 won't be using .deb files anymore? Jun 22 19:17:39 cookies are the pest that ruins my ESC key Jun 22 19:17:42 the N950 is a N9 with physical keyboard? Jun 22 19:17:52 Sc0rpius, sort of. Jun 22 19:17:59 No NFC Jun 22 19:18:04 are there other differences? Jun 22 19:18:04 TFT instead of OLED Jun 22 19:18:08 And LCD and a flat screen Jun 22 19:18:17 BT 2.1 not 4.0 Jun 22 19:18:21 so N950 is NOT multitouch, but the N9 is? Jun 22 19:18:30 It's capacitive. Jun 22 19:18:32 err a flat screen? Jun 22 19:18:55 Sc0rpius: actually it seems like Jun 22 19:19:07 wtf Jun 22 19:19:08 qwerty N900 535 euro @ amazon.de Jun 22 19:19:11 which is a real LOL Jun 22 19:19:23 I *need* physical keyboard Jun 22 19:19:27 so N9 so far is not an option for me Jun 22 19:19:34 do they devs want to develop for the N9 or the N950? Jun 22 19:19:45 SpeedEvil: you imply N9 has no flat screen? Jun 22 19:19:52 seems they are so different that one cannot be a dev device for the other Jun 22 19:20:03 exactly Jun 22 19:20:08 DocScrutinizer: Lots have been said about the curved gorrilla-glas I thought. Jun 22 19:20:16 NFC is something I can code based on theoritcal shit Jun 22 19:20:20 but multitouch? cmon Jun 22 19:20:23 i think the n950 is a left over batch of obsolete devices they are trying to get rid of Jun 22 19:20:24 * DocScrutinizer shrugs Jun 22 19:21:03 has anyone confirmed the N9 dev kit is an N950? I'm starting to think it's an N8 :P Jun 22 19:21:08 http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/22/nokia-n9-to-ship-in-sweden-on-september-23rd-saith-awkwardly-tr/ Jun 22 19:21:15 MoonTiger: Nokia doesn't need to "get rid of devices" Jun 22 19:21:18 So that means we'll see it in the US sometime in the middle of 2012 Jun 22 19:21:24 like N900 -> N950 is so obviously a next gen naming that it's silly they are trying to paint it something else Jun 22 19:21:42 i think many n900 owners would like a n950 Jun 22 19:21:50 if there's no multitouch + physical keyboard, there won't be an upgrade for me and I'll stick with my N900 Jun 22 19:21:57 monoid, yes of course but not as a dev device for n( Jun 22 19:22:08 N9 Jun 22 19:22:13 ~ping Jun 22 19:22:14 ~pong Jun 22 19:22:17 it must have multitouch Jun 22 19:22:20 yup Jun 22 19:22:21 #1 test Jun 22 19:22:22 Sc0rpius: what do you base no multitouch on? Jun 22 19:22:32 dunno, just wondering Jun 22 19:22:32 http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/AVM-FritzBox-vs-Cybits-in-GPL-case/?kc=rss Jun 22 19:22:49 frals: Don't you go interjecting your facts into a perfectly good argument! :) Jun 22 19:22:50 N950 seems like the perfect phone Jun 22 19:22:52 we have had too many stupid bots on this channel as of lately Jun 22 19:23:08 SpeedEvil: ye, so typical me, i better stop :( ;) Jun 22 19:23:10 Sc0rpius: missing microsd, apparently Jun 22 19:23:26 that would be absurd Jun 22 19:23:36 though N9 will have 64 GB? I can live without microSD there Jun 22 19:23:47 I have real doubts as to the hinge. Jun 22 19:23:57 But - hard to tell from pictures. Jun 22 19:24:25 ooops actually frals is completely right Jun 22 19:24:33 the c-ts is same on both Jun 22 19:24:33 Sc0rpius: I read N9 has 16 GB -.- Jun 22 19:24:41 In many ways it would make sense to use the n900 as a dev platform Jun 22 19:25:02 The N9 comes in two flavours, the 16G and t he 64G Jun 22 19:25:06 Internal memory: 16 GB or 64 GB from http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/devices/nokia-n9/specifications Jun 22 19:25:18 Harmattan on n900 would make sense from a dev perspective. Jun 22 19:25:27 Not the least being many devs already have it Jun 22 19:25:27 it comes in gorilla desert falvor also Jun 22 19:25:32 16GB is a joke Jun 22 19:25:50 A joke at half the price/ Jun 22 19:25:52 ? Jun 22 19:25:59 :S Jun 22 19:25:59 whoops .. Jun 22 19:26:31 alterego: half the price of what? Jun 22 19:26:51 anyway the N9 looks cool but without physical keyboard is not an option for me Jun 22 19:26:57 speedevil: Jun 22 19:27:02 Soooo, anything new, while I have been praying to the Tentacled One? Jun 22 19:27:11 not many devs have harmattan on n900 Jun 22 19:27:18 meego maybe, harmattan. .. Jun 22 19:27:20 SpeedEvil: Harmattan on N900 would probably suffer from the RAM requirement. And slightly different screen size remember Jun 22 19:27:23 I'm not fussed, I'll have an N950, maybe two, and I'll probably have an N9 Jun 22 19:27:28 RST38h: No Jun 22 19:27:30 Sc0rpius, Doc, alterego: Deep down there, you know you will buy N9 no matter what Jun 22 19:27:34 I've also still got N900s, so .. Jun 22 19:27:43 RST38h: I've never said I wouldn't :P Jun 22 19:27:43 :'( Jun 22 19:27:51 Oh wait, no, I'm not going to _buy_ one ;) Jun 22 19:27:53 Jaffa: yes, it would suffer somewhat - I question if discipline on devs to keep memory and CPU use down is a bad thing though. Jun 22 19:27:53 no one will have a n950 Jun 22 19:27:53 RST38h: yes, and 5 for you Jun 22 19:27:59 does the N9 have a user replaceable battery? Jun 22 19:28:03 But sure, I'll have one ;) Jun 22 19:28:12 MoonTiger: no. Jun 22 19:28:17 how can I do my heavy SSH at they gym without physical keyboard? it's just impossible. Jun 22 19:28:19 * MoonTiger sighs Jun 22 19:28:21 :'( Jun 22 19:28:27 Sc0rpius: Skip the gym Jun 22 19:28:30 heh no way Jun 22 19:28:31 i think i'll stay with the N900 for now Jun 22 19:28:32 Sc0rpius:By bringing both N9 and N900? Jun 22 19:28:33 Sc0rpius: external Bluetooth keyboard :P Jun 22 19:28:38 Or keep an N900 for that .. Jun 22 19:28:44 alright, from now on i'm bringing my laptop with me instead of my phone Jun 22 19:28:46 so far I'm keeping my N900 Jun 22 19:28:56 apparently it's the only fucking way to get something that works as i want Jun 22 19:29:00 if you're using the n900 keyboard for ssh you're insane either way Jun 22 19:29:02 heh kerio Jun 22 19:29:04 fucking elop Jun 22 19:29:05 N900 with Bluemaemo Jun 22 19:29:06 Sure, I'm keeping my N900/s and I'll probably use N9 as primary and N950 for MeeGo dev. Jun 22 19:29:07 javisn900: why is that? Jun 22 19:29:08 SpeedEvil: MoonTiger I heard yes Jun 22 19:29:09 javisn900: Nah, s'good Jun 22 19:29:10 it works great Jun 22 19:29:10 Simples. Jun 22 19:29:15 I can type really fast in the N900 Jun 22 19:29:17 DocScrutinizer, ok cool if so Jun 22 19:29:31 you unscrew and throw away the screws of back cover Jun 22 19:29:32 so i'm getting the idea that dev work is better in Qt these days then Jun 22 19:29:35 and I destroyed already the original N900 keyboard and I have a replacement now installed on it Jun 22 19:29:45 DocScrutinizer: Oh - I meant 'user' replacable. Jun 22 19:29:52 err, no back Jun 22 19:29:54 Sc0rpius: did you wear through the keyboard? Jun 22 19:29:57 i think ill be using n900 till a decent device comes out Jun 22 19:29:58 yeah completely Jun 22 19:29:58 DocScrutinizer: As in something usrs are encouraged to do. Jun 22 19:30:04 same here :D Jun 22 19:30:05 nope Jun 22 19:30:06 it started to peel away Jun 22 19:30:12 javisn900: no really what's wrong with the n900 kbd for ssh? Jun 22 19:30:24 My only care is, "Will it blend" .. Jun 22 19:30:25 it's surprisingly good for 3 rows Jun 22 19:30:26 and then no key could be read, I didn't care at first but when I tried to input a symbol I didn't know what to press Jun 22 19:30:27 ""after 3 days you learn how to open it"" Jun 22 19:30:33 If it blends, then I'm not gonna get one . Jun 22 19:30:39 so I bought a chinese keyboard replacement from eBay I think DocScrutinizer helped me with the link Jun 22 19:30:46 for like $1.99 Jun 22 19:30:46 ""after a month you swap batteries in the dark"" Jun 22 19:30:47 alterego: the n950 is made of aluminium! Jun 22 19:30:59 it's very ugly (the chinese keyboard replacement) but at least is complete Jun 22 19:31:25 Sc0rpius, can u give me the link? Jun 22 19:31:29 kerio: the iPhone 4 was maqde out of steel and gorilla glass :P Jun 22 19:31:42 and how is the quality of that keyb replacement ? Jun 22 19:31:46 I can type really fast in the N900 Jun 22 19:31:51 yup I can :) Jun 22 19:31:55 70 WPM here Jun 22 19:32:00 in the N900? Jun 22 19:32:06 but I can get 40-50 on the iPhone :p Jun 22 19:32:12 kerio: missing keys Jun 22 19:32:13 wow I haven't measured but I can do 110 WPM in the desktop keyboard Jun 22 19:32:34 a minute has 60 seconds Jun 22 19:32:37 oh f**k!! does it still have Modest as the email client? Jun 22 19:32:41 javisn900: huh? Jun 22 19:32:42 what keys? Jun 22 19:32:49 * kerio checks his n900 Jun 22 19:32:51 MoonTiger: No Jun 22 19:32:53 nope, all still there Jun 22 19:32:59 kerio: specially when compared to n8x0. Jun 22 19:33:00 Jaffa, heh thank god Jun 22 19:33:21 MoonTiger: just look for N900 keyboard on eBay Jun 22 19:33:43 kerio: tab, pipe, pagup, pagdown, del, esc, scrll lock Jun 22 19:34:08 you mean fn+backspace, shift+fn+g, shift+fn+up, shift+fn+down, shift+backspace, shift+fn+backspace Jun 22 19:34:13 i don't have scroll lock though Jun 22 19:34:19 you use emacs Jun 22 19:34:28 no, i use a keyboard layout i made Jun 22 19:34:31 but I use vi, so I can only remember a few keys Jun 22 19:34:41 it's an x11 layout Jun 22 19:34:53 application-independant Jun 22 19:35:29 I know. my point is that once you start with the weird shortcuts, you lose memory. Jun 22 19:35:31 javisn900: troll! Jun 22 19:35:35 thus you lose speed. Jun 22 19:35:47 you... wait, what? Jun 22 19:35:48 thus the hwkb is less convenient. Jun 22 19:35:50 * kerio is baffled Jun 22 19:36:26 * DocScrutinizer wipes off the dust from madal "troll of the day" Jun 22 19:36:36 medal* Jun 22 19:37:30 * javisn900 sighs Jun 22 19:37:35 lol Jun 22 19:37:57 Meanwhile: http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/got-a-cute-hostage-huh-wanted-man-updates-facebook-status-during-16hour-standoff-20110622-1ge63.html Jun 22 19:38:06 no vi/emacs wars please! Jun 22 19:38:16 im guessing the battery isnt replaceable as it isnt listed as a part in the contents section Jun 22 19:39:07 you need to unscrew something Jun 22 19:39:16 even on N950 Jun 22 19:39:34 that kinda rules it out for me Jun 22 19:40:05 there's a lot of things that rule it out for me Jun 22 19:41:09 yah one of the things i love about my N900 over my touch slab other device is the keyboard Jun 22 19:42:00 i was told by a nokia guy with one that it is and you gotta take out a few scrons ansd open it up and that he had done it already Jun 22 19:42:10 wtf is a scron Jun 22 19:42:18 * MoonTiger wonders too Jun 22 19:42:34 screws Jun 22 19:42:37 darn, third time? Jun 22 19:43:06 just scrolled up i geuss Jun 22 19:43:26 you unscrew and throw away the screws of back cover ""after 3 days you learn how to open it"" ""after a month you swap batteries in the dark"" Jun 22 19:44:16 Jun 22 19:44:35 that sounds like the 950 Jun 22 19:44:48 I made up the "back" Jun 22 19:44:51 First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you swap batteries in the dark. Jun 22 19:45:08 true story Jun 22 19:46:31 kerio: sounds like the story of your life err wife Jun 22 19:46:33 the screws on the 9 i asume would be in the sim/usb area under the covers Jun 22 19:47:03 possibly Jun 22 19:47:07 bingo Jun 22 19:47:13 I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will swap batteries in the dark. Jun 22 19:47:17 I mean, maybe :) Jun 22 19:47:50 as the pic i saw had clips that went too far under the side of the case to pull out at the other end Jun 22 19:47:59 War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is swapping batteries in the dark. Jun 22 19:49:10 kerio: is this funny? if yes then please check backscroll (only a few hours) to find the right partner for your jokes Jun 22 19:49:17 https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/u8C39jXauDdajDJGYioFUGwBtj4LaKFthfHhGPQpJDE?feat=directlink DocScrutinizer Jun 22 19:49:33 DocScrutinizer, what's your take on da N950? Jun 22 19:49:37 Anything that can possibly go wrong, swaps batteries in the dark. Jun 22 19:49:45 if N950 is real, I'm up for it Jun 22 19:49:55 Sc0rpius: it's definetely real Jun 22 19:49:59 it's just not for you Jun 22 19:50:00 :( Jun 22 19:50:07 why not? Jun 22 19:50:14 it has everything I want: physical keyboard, Meego and multitouch Jun 22 19:50:15 because it's reserved for devs, and has no warranty Jun 22 19:50:21 you can't buy one from nokia Jun 22 19:50:25 well but eventually will be released to the public Jun 22 19:50:35 haha Jun 22 19:50:46 ...no Jun 22 19:50:48 that's the point Jun 22 19:50:51 NO?!? Jun 22 19:51:16 no ... just for devs Jun 22 19:51:19 nah Nokia won't be that stupid Jun 22 19:51:21 limited numbers available Jun 22 19:51:30 and a dev device for..... not the N9 Jun 22 19:51:31 Sc0rpius: remember that elop is guiding it Jun 22 19:51:33 even if we have to wait a year, they WILL release it Jun 22 19:51:50 Nokia hopes to sort out problems with N950 Jun 22 19:52:04 they haven't developed it to bin it Jun 22 19:52:19 * MoonTiger wonders if the N950 has a wobbly usb port too Jun 22 19:52:29 haha Jun 22 19:52:36 allegedly not at all Jun 22 19:53:11 somebody who should know meant you'd rather tear off other parts than the USB Jun 22 19:55:53 thttp://www.engadget.com/2011/06/22/nokia-n950-pictures-a-gallerys-worth-of-meego-to-tell-the-stor/ Jun 22 19:58:29 http://www.engadget.com/photos/nokia-n950-press-shots/#4243170 Jun 22 20:07:17 Oh FFS. Yet another "it was the name change from ITT -> TMO which broke the forums" post. Jun 22 20:07:28 :) Jun 22 20:07:33 Jaffa, you're just to close to it to see the problem. Jun 22 20:07:43 It was the mass market that broke the forums. Jun 22 20:07:51 SpeedEvil: +1 Jun 22 20:08:19 * Jaffa did not expect to see this argument crop up in the N9 thread. Admittedly, I shouldn't be surprised. Jun 22 20:08:28 If you want mass market and sane fourms - you generally need actual paid mods. Jun 22 20:08:43 With liberal use of the ban button. Jun 22 20:09:37 Yeah, I think the organic self-management approach didn't work well. Jun 22 20:09:42 Or the right captchas. Jun 22 20:09:56 'Evaluate this C expression, taking proper note of operator precedence' Jun 22 20:09:58 Jaffa: isn't it the truth? ;-P N9 clearly doesn't qualify as NIT Jun 22 20:11:53 so maybe if it were Itt still, we would've see N950 instead N9 for mass market Jun 22 20:12:21 Is there a good URL to include on Nokia Care reports about USB port breakage? Jun 22 20:12:45 a metric ton Jun 22 20:13:09 DocScrutinizer: http://discussions.nokia.co.uk/t5/Maemo-Devices/Nokia-responds-to-reports-about-the-N900-micro-usb-port-getting/td-p/629019 looks quite good Jun 22 20:13:16 * SpeedEvil is annoyed he diddn't send his n900 off for repair to fix the slightly dodgy USB port before they ran out of motherboards. Jun 22 20:13:36 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=54762 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=547991#post547991 Jun 22 20:13:36 Oh, they've run out of motherboards? Jun 22 20:13:43 Well, I look forward to seeing them fix it :-) Jun 22 20:13:51 They can replace it with an N9 Jun 22 20:14:15 Jaffa: Someone was in about a week ago, they sent him back an n8 I think Jun 22 20:14:22 That'd do. I've got another N900 Jun 22 20:14:28 My brother's "borrowed" my N8 Jun 22 20:14:59 *yawn* Jun 22 20:16:05 i compared n8 to n900 camera. it is an improvement, but n900 is quite good Jun 22 20:16:38 i wish they had kept the kickstand on n8 though Jun 22 20:17:15 but some people @ nokia seem to favor the 'lesss is more' approach Jun 22 20:17:35 I like the camera cover. Jun 22 20:17:44 rm_work, ping? Jun 22 20:17:44 I t means that I don't have to worry about fingerpirnts Jun 22 20:17:48 * monoid nods Jun 22 20:18:50 "less is more" - another bit to make my permanent deja-vu feel worse Jun 22 20:19:41 * DocScrutinizer sees green cards with Laotse rhymes in front of his mental eye Jun 22 20:20:20 Freedom is slavery! Jun 22 20:21:24 SpeedEvil: you still got your green card? or you never had one? Jun 22 20:22:05 * GeneralAntilles applied for an N950 through the community program. Jun 22 20:22:16 \o/ Jun 22 20:22:45 Good luck! Jun 22 20:23:03 judging by the press photos Nokia already plans to sell N950 without warranty and strictly for devels. Jun 22 20:23:22 well, iirc that's been exactly what OM did on Neo 1973 Jun 22 20:23:26 Well - given that it's a loaner - it seems unlikely there would be a warranty. Jun 22 20:23:28 people who have 770s, N810s and N900s should also be able to get N950 Jun 22 20:23:58 3310 too. Jun 22 20:24:06 heh Jun 22 20:24:09 I want to port snake. Jun 22 20:24:14 Going for the UI/graphics design, testing and feedback angle. Jun 22 20:24:19 SpeedEvil: they wouldn't print a box "for devels only" when they would plan to just give out 250 loaners Jun 22 20:24:33 Oh - I diddn't see the box. Jun 22 20:25:21 http://www.engadget.com/photos/nokia-n950-press-shots/#4243169 Jun 22 20:25:36 Companies do silly things. Jun 22 20:25:46 Look at OM and the webstore development effort. Jun 22 20:26:31 i wonder how 'without warranty' works in the EU Jun 22 20:27:24 cehteh: If it's a loaner... Jun 22 20:28:07 cehteh: aiui this is mainly about the sw Jun 22 20:28:15 DocScrutinizer: Or making comletely fake n900 as a design that doesn't share any parts. Jun 22 20:28:57 yeah, that's weird for sure Jun 22 20:29:15 cant they mix the n9 and the n950 and release a n9½ Jun 22 20:29:28 harry potter edition? Jun 22 20:29:32 :) Jun 22 20:29:32 well, for 20k units it may easily pay back Jun 22 20:29:38 is there anything better about the n9? Jun 22 20:30:13 well i wont buy either .. so doesnt really matter :P Jun 22 20:30:24 SpeedEvil: and I guess they need several k for all the shops of this world Jun 22 20:30:48 monoid: bit faster Jun 22 20:30:51 monoid: more memory Jun 22 20:30:57 n9 sleek design, amoled, but keyboard and resistive touchscreen (well the 950 has capacitive too or?) Jun 22 20:31:13 n9 has resistive? Jun 22 20:31:13 yep Jun 22 20:31:23 nope Jun 22 20:31:24 n9 has capacitative Jun 22 20:31:29 both have Jun 22 20:31:41 guessed so Jun 22 20:31:51 well and no fm transmitter, no IR ... Jun 22 20:32:01 there might be fmtx Jun 22 20:32:08 you have to make some compromises for sleek design Jun 22 20:32:23 ok maybe .. (well is its antenna connected?) Jun 22 20:32:26 IR always been a fake Jun 22 20:32:45 it works for 20cm distance :P Jun 22 20:32:56 indeed Jun 22 20:33:00 real ir tranceiver would be nice Jun 22 20:33:11 * SpeedEvil wonders how many remotes would respond as well to the flash LED pulsed at 48khz Jun 22 20:33:12 3 Jun 22 20:33:18 not even notebook have IR nowadays Jun 22 20:33:19 but the n9 got a compass finally Jun 22 20:33:28 (hey where are the gyros now?) Jun 22 20:33:36 Compasses were $30 or so when the n900 was designned Jun 22 20:33:40 they are now around $1.5 Jun 22 20:33:49 SpeedEvil: the problem: you can't pulse flash that fast Jun 22 20:33:55 woot? Jun 22 20:33:57 has the n950 a compass? Jun 22 20:33:58 no fm transmitter? Jun 22 20:34:10 hmm, i really liked that in my n900 Jun 22 20:34:12 DocScrutinizer: unless it's on the right sort of GPIO Jun 22 20:34:27 jacekowski: not 'official' .. but maybe there is one Jun 22 20:34:40 to the schematics!!! Jun 22 20:34:41 SpeedEvil: unlikely, needs driver chip Jun 22 20:34:47 oops... not there yet. Jun 22 20:34:51 ;P Jun 22 20:34:55 yes - driver needs to be able to do it Jun 22 20:35:05 next question: will the n9 be more oben as the n900? hardware wise Jun 22 20:35:07 Or hooked to a GPIO Jun 22 20:35:09 open Jun 22 20:35:34 again unlikely Jun 22 20:35:44 this is no meego proper after all Jun 22 20:36:08 * cehteh just hopes his n900 will last some years more Jun 22 20:36:29 at least they seem to have gotten some sort of API for charger Jun 22 20:36:40 cehteh: get spare Jun 22 20:36:49 haha Jun 22 20:37:06 I'm already looking for a 3rd and possibly 4th Jun 22 20:37:10 as soon the n9 is released n900 prices (used ones) should drop :P Jun 22 20:37:31 oh i dunno Jun 22 20:38:15 I probably don't like those used devices. The users clearly disqualified themselves as not taking much care about the device's value Jun 22 20:38:54 you can't tell from the exterior whether those careless morons overclocked or not Jun 22 20:39:03 * Jaffa will have a spare looking for a good home (if repaired by Nokia Care). Don't need two for MeeGo/Maemo dev when it's not me primary phone. Jun 22 20:39:06 so you buy used N900 and one day it will just stop working because of them. Jun 22 20:40:06 Venemo: exactly Jun 22 20:40:27 yeah Jun 22 20:40:31 like buying car with miles counter reset Jun 22 20:40:35 I never overclocked my device Jun 22 20:40:48 Venemo: well i care more about mechanical spare parts Jun 22 20:41:18 hmm, indeed, touchpanel, kbd, etc most important Jun 22 20:41:34 you possibly could even get a OMAP3430 to swap Jun 22 20:41:44 but no touchpanel Jun 22 20:41:56 or keymat Jun 22 20:42:04 exactly Jun 22 20:42:08 I would clap if you could desolder and re-solder the OMAP Jun 22 20:42:26 hah, you have no idea Jun 22 20:42:50 with the right tricks and equipment Jun 22 20:42:52 (i dont have) Jun 22 20:43:03 well baking oven :P Jun 22 20:43:15 for preheating, yes Jun 22 20:43:16 desolder woudld work :P Jun 22 20:43:48 how many years will nokia keep spare mainboards around? Jun 22 20:43:59 hmmmmm the engadget gallery of the N950 does look purdy if those are actual pics Jun 22 20:44:03 from now on should be 3-5 at least Jun 22 20:44:05 they're already out of spare Jun 22 20:44:10 yes? Jun 22 20:44:12 outch Jun 22 20:44:14 yes Jun 22 20:44:19 crap Jun 22 20:44:27 soo, when usb connector breaks they solder it? Jun 22 20:44:28 incredible, unparalleled Jun 22 20:44:37 well next reason for not buying n9 or n950 Jun 22 20:44:40 instead of just replacing Jun 22 20:44:43 no jaska you get N8 Jun 22 20:44:46 n900 had at least a bit future Jun 22 20:44:46 haha Jun 22 20:44:55 doc, id take the n8, drop it on the floor and stomp it Jun 22 20:44:57 no haha Jun 22 20:45:16 we had 2 or 3 reports like that now Jun 22 20:45:18 that would suck eggs ... an N8 for a N900?? Jun 22 20:45:22 last 2 weeks Jun 22 20:45:34 thats like trading my mercedes for a toyota corolla dx Jun 22 20:45:53 You know what we really don't need more of? Jun 22 20:45:56 Duopolies Jun 22 20:46:02 * GeneralAntilles doesn't get internet commenters. Jun 22 20:46:22 ~dict duopolies Jun 22 20:46:24 could not find definition for duopolies Jun 22 20:46:36 Like a monopoly Jun 22 20:46:40 but with two parties Jun 22 20:46:44 aah Jun 22 20:46:44 Android and iOS in this case. Jun 22 20:47:35 like republicans and err labour? Jun 22 20:47:42 ;-P Jun 22 20:48:03 Yes, exactly. Jun 22 20:48:09 democrats and republicans, right wing and more right wing :) Jun 22 20:48:12 or what's the "other" party called over there? Jun 22 20:48:27 jaska, you've got that backwards. :) Jun 22 20:48:41 Or actually, upside down. Jun 22 20:48:53 lol Jun 22 20:48:53 Right and left don't actually apply appropriately Jun 22 20:49:04 gen: i meant repubs are more on the right but democrats are still right wing compared to what we have here Jun 22 20:49:13 Democrats and Republicans are both in favor of telling you what you can and cannot do with your time, money, property, and body. Jun 22 20:49:29 jaska, yes, more people who want to tell you what to do with your time, money, property and body. Jun 22 20:49:49 nokia forced me to like their products by making great stuff :( Jun 22 20:49:51 Politics isn't 1 dimensional. Jun 22 20:50:01 evil maemo people Jun 22 20:50:12 gen: in one way its 1-dimensional.. they all suck. Jun 22 20:50:33 but enough of that :) Jun 22 20:50:36 I agree Jun 22 20:50:36 monoid: even worse they now keep the best stuff for themselves Jun 22 20:50:43 (though I suspect for different reasons) Jun 22 20:51:09 think they might raise the number above 250? Jun 22 20:51:48 oh there are some 1000s of them. Reserved for contractors etc Jun 22 20:52:29 have to mug a contractor Jun 22 21:00:26 The 250 N950s is for loaners in the Meego community. There is apparently a larger barch for sale to commercial developers. Jun 22 21:01:05 sigh Jun 22 21:01:53 maybe i camp in front of HQ in helsinki with a big sign Jun 22 21:02:44 monoid: they won't have many anyway. Jun 22 21:03:41 monoid, I have enjoyed your reviews Jun 22 21:03:51 what are you going to do with your device when you get it? Jun 22 21:05:51 can you get me one? :) Jun 22 21:06:13 monoid, answer my question. Jun 22 21:06:14 :) Jun 22 21:06:20 he will review it. Jun 22 21:06:33 i can port some games Jun 22 21:06:36 nokia note, please include a splash cover for monoid Jun 22 21:06:48 well compile them Jun 22 21:07:10 is there open-source face recognition i wonder Jun 22 21:07:15 monoid, you can do that now with the virtual sdk thingie Jun 22 21:07:33 i mean really, do you currently have a similar device? Jun 22 21:07:49 and what makes this nokia n9 better than it Jun 22 21:08:18 oh n950 is a faster n900 with more memory Jun 22 21:08:27 http://sourceforge.net/projects/malic/ open source face recognition Jun 22 21:08:36 it would be fun if the device only worked for a recognized owner :) Jun 22 21:08:40 DocScrutinizer: n950 usb port: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/06/nokia-9509.jpg Jun 22 21:08:41 do you have n900 now? Jun 22 21:08:48 monoid, indeed it would Jun 22 21:09:00 in part I have examined suchtechnologies Jun 22 21:09:15 there is a university project in Manchester for facial verification Jun 22 21:09:29 and I have some recognition stuff on n900 (not facial though) Jun 22 21:09:30 i have a broken n900 Jun 22 21:09:39 looking at buying one used from amazon.co.uk Jun 22 21:10:08 lcuk: iris Jun 22 21:10:24 http://projectiris.co.uk/ Jun 22 21:10:40 SpeedEvil, camera focus issues Jun 22 21:10:42 ;) Jun 22 21:10:42 Though enabling flash would be bad Jun 22 21:10:47 lcuk: not really Jun 22 21:10:58 yes for the facial low res camera Jun 22 21:11:02 I mean the other Jun 22 21:11:10 the other is not user friendly Jun 22 21:11:14 Meh Jun 22 21:11:28 lifting a phone up and it recognising owner is a realistically nice feature Jun 22 21:11:58 Facial recognition is hard to spoof. Jun 22 21:12:09 who is talking about spoofing? Jun 22 21:12:11 photocopy Jun 22 21:12:14 and not really Jun 22 21:12:20 at MeeGo conf 2010 Dublin Jun 22 21:12:22 Iris is quite hard - you can even detect if someones pulled your eye out, and is attmepting to auth with it, because of the lack of a pulse. Jun 22 21:12:28 I got past the windows 7 facial recogition login Jun 22 21:12:34 hopbeat had configured his Jun 22 21:12:38 I took a photo of it Jun 22 21:12:40 of him Jun 22 21:12:49 and showed that to the computer to login Jun 22 21:12:52 n900 is awesome. Jun 22 21:13:06 there is no win7 facial recognition Jun 22 21:13:14 it must have been lenovo's Jun 22 21:13:32 GeneralAntilles: pong Jun 22 21:13:34 which was probably developed by some $3 contractor in under half an hour Jun 22 21:13:37 GeneralAntilles: i'm high latency today Jun 22 21:13:46 rm_work, did you apply for the N950 program? Jun 22 21:13:49 poor contractor =) Jun 22 21:14:05 GeneralAntilles: yes Jun 22 21:14:13 GeneralAntilles: under MeeGo.org's program Jun 22 21:14:15 rm_work, OK, 'cause I used you in my application. :P Jun 22 21:14:22 GeneralAntilles: lol Jun 22 21:14:27 GeneralAntilles: well i hope we BOTH get in then Jun 22 21:14:38 we'll be... a team :) Jun 22 21:14:56 do not worry, they'll send one n950 to all of us Jun 22 21:14:59 _TO SHARE_ Jun 22 21:15:03 lolololol Jun 22 21:15:34 Hehe Jun 22 21:15:44 Used fiferboy, too. Jun 22 21:15:46 see javispedro Jun 22 21:15:49 Need to think up a team project. Jun 22 21:15:51 facial recognition would be needed. Jun 22 21:16:15 I would totally work on a team project Jun 22 21:16:24 Liar Jun 22 21:16:27 You're a lone wolf. Jun 22 21:16:46 :D Jun 22 21:17:06 maybe Nokia wants to remove this lone cowboy coder concept Jun 22 21:17:14 by forcing all of us to share that single n950 Jun 22 21:17:28 Ha Jun 22 21:18:04 why do you think it took so long to develop it :P Jun 22 21:18:13 * javispedro remebers the days I had to send small test apps to lcuk =) Jun 22 21:18:19 the entire nokia development took place on one single n950 prototype Jun 22 21:18:50 javispedro people still send me test apps ;) Jun 22 21:18:50 That thing must be beat. Jun 22 21:19:15 that is the cardboard one Jun 22 21:19:20 be realistic ... they only bringing the n9 to market to fulfil contracts and obligations they made with intel and want to get a few R&D expenses back .. as soon they reached their goal they'll drop it Jun 22 21:20:57 cehteh: with the n900 there was no contract nor obligations and they'll also dropped it as soon as it entered the market Jun 22 21:21:10 so, no news here :) Jun 22 21:22:29 yes Jun 22 21:23:04 i just mean for the n9 they will drop it even soon and they even advertized that Jun 22 21:23:16 and now they have contracts and obligations with M$ Jun 22 21:24:09 wow qtcreator is a real clunk Jun 22 21:24:21 hi I guess we have no real knowledge on n9 yet Jun 22 21:24:21 we can make a lottery who will be the next smartphone vendor trying an open concept :P Jun 22 21:24:48 cehteh: they're released N770 and N800 and then N810 and N900 Jun 22 21:24:51 for instance what will be proprietary, if the modem is phonet etc.... Jun 22 21:24:59 since the device is not out yet Jun 22 21:25:18 cehteh: so it's not like they are dropping it completly Jun 22 21:25:27 cehteh: they are treating it like any other phone Jun 22 21:25:32 time will tell Jun 22 21:27:35 >.> Jun 22 21:27:49 so do people at nokia bascially do what they want? Jun 22 21:28:04 why do they bother to make nice pictures of the N950 if it's fabled to be dead. Jun 22 21:28:07 jeez really what a pile of crap qt creator is Jun 22 21:28:12 * MoonTiger uninstalls it Jun 22 21:29:34 btw did someone already combine the n900 maemo power kenrel with uboot? Jun 22 21:29:52 to load another distro like meego or other(debian,shr etc...) Jun 22 21:33:16 there is multiboot available Jun 22 21:34:15 lol, the noteslate twitter feed went crazy Jun 22 21:35:02 multiboot can boot other kernels? Jun 22 21:35:15 like a 2.6.37 kernel? Jun 22 21:36:04 yes Jun 22 21:36:14 how does it work? Jun 22 21:36:15 it can boot linux 3.0 too Jun 22 21:36:57 * GNUtoo is confused with all the maemo boot features and knows only: Jun 22 21:37:00 *kexecboot Jun 22 21:37:07 *uboot that is chainloaded Jun 22 21:37:14 *flashing the zImage directly Jun 22 21:37:26 which is what multiboot does. Jun 22 21:37:42 ah ok Jun 22 21:37:50 each kenrel flash another zImage Jun 22 21:37:51 and reboots Jun 22 21:37:53 ok Jun 22 21:38:08 not usable for us so Jun 22 21:38:13 since we're another distro Jun 22 21:38:20 we would need 0xFFFF onboard Jun 22 21:38:27 and to use mtd-utils etc... Jun 22 21:38:33 so to re-implement multiboot Jun 22 21:38:53 hm Jun 22 21:39:13 I'll try to fix uboot for the power kernel Jun 22 21:53:07 * GeneralAntilles just made the mistake of opening rcadden's twitter stream. Jun 22 21:54:15 :) Jun 22 21:55:53 who is that guy Jun 22 21:56:12 Some dumbass that's been blogging about Nokia and Maemo for years. Jun 22 21:56:29 One of those armchair analyst types. Jun 22 21:56:58 in my age we called them j. random blogger Jun 22 21:57:01 ;P Jun 22 21:57:40 man, I need some mobile pen-input capturing and I need it now. Jun 22 21:58:09 notescape my patience is running oooout, and the friggin dot paper pen is looking better every day Jun 22 21:58:30 Hehe Jun 22 21:58:36 It's a pretty slick little gadget. Jun 22 21:58:53 it's the 8th time I forget about my notepad this week Jun 22 21:59:01 s/about// Jun 22 21:59:01 javispedro meant: it's the 8th time I forget my notepad this week Jun 22 21:59:38 GeneralAntilles, Ricky Cadden I'd guess? Jun 22 21:59:42 Yeah. Jun 22 21:59:49 so I would _die_ for something to store notes on a pc I can sync with n900 Jun 22 21:59:50 * MohammadAG remembers the Symbian days Jun 22 22:00:43 bah you ex-symbian fanboys Jun 22 22:00:47 palmos was the better one Jun 22 22:01:32 NEWTON! Jun 22 22:02:11 javispedro, not my fault the N800 wasn't marketed enough Jun 22 22:02:19 GeneralAntilles: apple banishes you from the cult for mentioning that. you can no longer buy a macbook. Jun 22 22:02:22 actually I knew about the N800, just not that it was linux Jun 22 22:02:28 thought it was J2ME or something :p Jun 22 22:02:33 Shoot, I just bought a Lenovo. Jun 22 22:02:41 you DID WHAT Jun 22 22:02:45 are you frigging crazy Jun 22 22:02:47 (which doesn't want to run OS X happily) Jun 22 22:02:50 x220 Jun 22 22:02:51 A little Jun 22 22:02:54 Slick laptop, though. Jun 22 22:03:40 sadly, since the ideapad started being the center of my jokes about awfully poor built quality, my opinion of lenovo has fallen significantly Jun 22 22:04:49 IdeaPad's seem terrible. Jun 22 22:04:55 ThinkPads still seem mostly up to snuff. Jun 22 22:05:16 (23:59:13) (GeneralAntilles) NEWTON! Jun 22 22:05:19 ahead of it's time Jun 22 22:05:23 Yes. Jun 22 22:05:26 I'm still impressed by it. Jun 22 22:05:51 so was I when I heard about it for the first time Jun 22 22:06:15 * MohammadAG doesn't get why reviewers are getting a developer device Jun 22 22:06:33 nice choice GeneralAntilles Jun 22 22:06:47 what display does it have Jun 22 22:06:49 I still think that's where tablets should be Jun 22 22:06:53 instead of iPad crap Jun 22 22:06:56 monoid, IPS Jun 22 22:07:18 whoever is paying you too much should hire me Jun 22 22:07:19 12.5 1366x768 Jun 22 22:07:36 Got it on a 25% off sale. Jun 22 22:07:37 is it the tablet version? Jun 22 22:07:38 why review a device when it's not going to be sold... Jun 22 22:07:46 Nah Jun 22 22:07:51 MohammadAG: so that you don't get one Jun 22 22:07:51 what device are we talking about? Jun 22 22:07:52 Tablet laptops don't do much for me Jun 22 22:07:58 it's also much heavier, larger and expensive Jun 22 22:08:00 Lenovo x220. Jun 22 22:08:01 fun for sketching Jun 22 22:08:18 javispedro, no really, there's no point Jun 22 22:08:18 I would love a tablet that DOESN'T run Android Jun 22 22:08:22 has mypaint gotten faster? Jun 22 22:08:26 monoid, true. Jun 22 22:08:26 Sc0rpius, iPad Jun 22 22:08:28 * MohammadAG runs Jun 22 22:08:30 actually I should try to put Linux on my tablet Jun 22 22:08:31 you can run angstrom on the archos gen8 Sc0rpius Jun 22 22:08:36 * Sc0rpius shoots MohammadAG Jun 22 22:08:40 I will miss sketching on the N9. Jun 22 22:08:44 Apple doesn't exist in my world Jun 22 22:08:50 I don't even TOUCH things Apple Jun 22 22:09:10 GeneralAntilles: you had an n9? Jun 22 22:09:12 sometimes people hand me their iPods "please take it for a second" and I say "I won't touch it" Jun 22 22:09:33 Sc0rpius: nothing wrong with apple stuff Jun 22 22:09:39 GeneralAntilles: how many bogomips does your x220 report? Jun 22 22:09:43 Macer, no. Jun 22 22:09:47 monoid, dunno. Jun 22 22:09:52 Got the i7 Jun 22 22:09:53 i personally wouldn't buy it. but i don't think it is bad. Jun 22 22:10:04 I hate everything Apple though Jun 22 22:10:13 I loved the Apple ][c... until I had a C64 Jun 22 22:10:16 i think it is a bit overpriced for what is inside it Jun 22 22:10:22 that's the last thing Apple did right. Jun 22 22:10:32 no way Jun 22 22:10:36 G5 :) Jun 22 22:10:51 once they went intel they lost their appeal Jun 22 22:11:06 actually Jun 22 22:11:07 i could justify buying one with a ppc in it Jun 22 22:11:12 yeah the apple //c i guess even still came with schematics, and now you have to `jailbreak' their stuff... :/ Jun 22 22:11:15 now our phones are 1000x the speed of the apple ii Jun 22 22:11:52 remember Auto Duel ? Jun 22 22:12:27 i wish apple swapped over to ibm cpus Jun 22 22:13:00 i would buy something like a quad core ibm power cpu based apple Jun 22 22:15:37 when i buyed an apple newton, it was discontinued (because of M$...) Jun 22 22:15:55 our phones can run several Apple IIc emulators actually Jun 22 22:15:58 when i buyed a nokia n900 ... Jun 22 22:17:23 bought Jun 22 22:17:32 not buyed :) Jun 22 22:18:18 newtons were pretty good Jun 22 22:18:23 a bit ahead of their time Jun 22 22:18:54 but i think newtons weren't made by apple. just the os Jun 22 22:24:17 Macer: did you have one? Jun 22 22:24:35 i wonder if there's anything that could be revived from the newton OS, ui whatevr Jun 22 22:25:32 I touched a Newton once. Jun 22 22:25:40 I was all - 'I am 12, what is this'. Jun 22 22:26:40 For once I actually agree with wikipedia deletionists, and they even find resistance Jun 22 22:27:40 that was random javispedro Jun 22 22:27:54 javispedro: In what context? Jun 22 22:28:07 SpeedEvil: the 4chan joke taken too far, aka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_sort Jun 22 22:28:20 am 12, what is this'. Jun 22 22:28:32 that was odd Jun 22 22:28:33 monoid: do I know you? from tmo? Jun 22 22:29:01 * SpeedEvil just woke up. Jun 22 22:29:33 i don't think so Jun 22 22:30:14 ah you did snes port Jun 22 22:30:34 * SpeedEvil idly wonders what the weight of the n950 is. Jun 22 22:31:00 hmmm Jun 22 22:31:27 monoid, I tried creating a boot image for /dev/mtd3 and I failed: Jun 22 22:31:34 if I extract an image I get: Jun 22 22:32:06 00000000 4e 4f 4c 4f 21 69 6d 67 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |NOLO!img........| Jun 22 22:32:23 which I bet is different from a fiasco image Jun 22 22:32:26 right? Jun 22 22:33:00 who knows bootloaders? not me Jun 22 22:33:28 ok Jun 22 22:33:39 I remember that jacekowski does Jun 22 22:33:47 hi jacekowski Jun 22 22:34:01 Jesus Christ and I took the time to read that stupid Sleep Sort algorithm Jun 22 22:34:08 and I was like "WTF" Jun 22 22:34:28 bogosort is clearly better. Jun 22 22:34:46 haha please Jun 22 22:34:59 I want to see people using that Sleep Sort trying to sort a list of numbers in the million range Jun 22 22:35:10 Sc0rpius: you are falling into their trap Jun 22 22:35:28 then they tell you that you could make sleep sort divide the integers by a few magnitudes Jun 22 22:35:36 yea but at least it cracked me a laugh when I read the sleep($1) line Jun 22 22:35:44 :) Jun 22 22:35:56 yeah they could say that Jun 22 22:36:27 and blablablabla ... and eventually you realize you are just wrapping the linux timer_add function which implements... a distribution sort. Jun 22 22:37:37 actually and this is very much falling into their trap Jun 22 22:37:41 it doesn't really work Jun 22 22:37:55 let's say the numbers are very very very big but close to each other Jun 22 22:38:04 then they will divide the integers by magnitudes like you say Jun 22 22:38:27 but then the sleep function doesn't start at the same time for the whole list, since it's inside a loop (a for() ) Jun 22 22:38:50 if the numbers are extremely big and extremely closer to each other maybe you won't get an ordered list Jun 22 22:39:03 it doesn't work in quantum physics lists :) Jun 22 22:39:34 and I fell into the trap :S Jun 22 22:40:25 whoa, look at the clock Jun 22 22:40:29 sleep() Jun 22 22:40:30 cya Jun 22 22:40:49 * Sc0rpius waves back Jun 22 22:40:54 never mind I found the specs on 0xFFFF website Jun 22 22:55:57 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtA_k8W-vZU&feature=player_detailpage#t=408s lulz Jun 22 23:25:06 no purple :( Jun 22 23:25:16 I WANT A PURPLE PHONE!!! Jun 22 23:25:59 Wish it also came in yellow. Jun 22 23:26:19 As a tweet I saw today said: then they'd have CYMK Jun 22 23:26:43 transparent for the geeks :P Jun 22 23:27:51 cehteh: that would be awesome Jun 22 23:28:14 (and then you can chose between green, beige or purple pcb :P) Jun 22 23:31:34 Purple PCBs are the best. Jun 22 23:31:59 But I think the deep grayish blue Apple tends to use is the classiest. Jun 22 23:32:38 .o(transparent pcb!) Jun 22 23:32:59 that would look awesome with multi layer boards Jun 22 23:35:41 Choom: you can get a purple n97 mini, i think Jun 22 23:38:29 random - are the BT speakers out yet? Jun 22 23:38:54 I can barely wait for this phone to come out Jun 22 23:39:31 I do, however, wonder whether the battery is removable Jun 22 23:39:58 considering what they said about the way they assemble them Jun 22 23:40:06 http://thenokiablog.com/2011/06/22/nokia-n9-sweden-3/ Jun 22 23:40:07 hmm Jun 22 23:40:37 We now have a solid release date for the Nokia N9 in Sweden. A press release from 3 announced the MeeGo device will be available for sale September 23rd this year. Jun 22 23:40:57 interesting Jun 22 23:41:11 just a few weeks after the iphone 5 Jun 22 23:41:18 wish it came out sooner though Jun 22 23:43:07 I'm not sure I see the need for all four edges to swipe Jun 22 23:43:21 It'd be nice to be able to unbind some Jun 22 23:48:19 I hope they release it more than just Sweden :) Jun 22 23:54:39 Sweden release is fine with me Jun 23 00:11:00 since it doesn't come with a keyboard or FM transmitter I don't really care where it gets released Jun 23 00:11:37 region-specific hardware sucks Jun 23 00:12:45 I'm sure the swedes would be as eager to accept my money as anyone else would Jun 23 00:15:45 Choom, don't spread things unless they're true Jun 23 00:15:51 it has an FMTX afaik Jun 23 00:15:53 It'd be nice to be able to unbind some Jun 23 00:16:02 it's possible to disable the swipe Jun 23 00:16:11 which is nice, but worrying Jun 23 00:16:54 I'm guessing the screen wake up is through the accelerometer's tap feature? Jun 23 00:22:14 MohammadAG: well it was not (or at least I didn't notice it) in the specifications that I read yesterday Jun 23 00:24:10 http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Device_specifications/N9/ Jun 23 00:24:19 did I miss something there? Jun 23 00:24:26 capacitive screen Jun 23 00:24:59 Though if the accel is similar to the one in the n900, it supports doubletap Jun 23 00:25:05 It can detect taps in hardware Jun 23 00:27:08 doesn't seem to have an FM receiver either Jun 23 00:27:44 Pity. Jun 23 00:28:00 http://www.nokia.co.uk/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/headsets-accessories/wired-headsets/nokia-digital-radio-headset-dab/specifications Jun 23 00:28:22 Oh - no FM. Jun 23 01:48:29 anyone using extmou? somehow i don't get the cursor when i have a mouse connected Jun 23 01:57:11 ah, /opt/usr/share/icons/default/cursors.extmou isn't there for some reasons Jun 23 02:13:06 DocScrutinizer: infobot joined! Jun 23 02:20:20 is it me or does the n9 not have 4g ? Jun 23 02:21:20 Who cares? Jun 23 02:21:24 pentaband 3g Jun 23 02:27:03 n950 better have 4g Jun 23 02:27:15 i'm still on tmobiles unlimited plan :) i want to take advantage Jun 23 02:31:52 hhe Jun 23 02:31:55 *heh Jun 23 02:34:24 xd13, it wont. :) Jun 23 02:34:54 :( Jun 23 02:35:54 i wonder y Jun 23 02:36:26 i'm still going to get n950 when it hits, the speed though is somewhat of a big disappointment Jun 23 02:37:31 a lot of my friends have androids and their speed is clearly killing my n900 right now Jun 23 02:39:45 Because it's mostly pointless. Jun 23 02:39:49 N950 isn't "hitting" Jun 23 02:39:51 It's a devkit Jun 23 02:39:54 Not for sale. Jun 23 02:40:01 N9 is likely due around September. Jun 23 02:40:34 huh? they r never going to sell n950 to users ? Jun 23 02:42:14 i know they never announced the n950 but that does not mean they won't Jun 23 02:44:11 xd13: From what I understand they only have the limited number they produced of them (in the hundreds?) Jun 23 02:44:16 That's what was said in here anyway :P Jun 23 02:44:47 One can only hope devs will get bored and sell them to little people like us. Jun 23 02:47:16 i hope nokia changes their mind and sells the n950 to customers. Is this going to be the only meego phone ? is nokia going permanentley windows 8 after this ? Jun 23 02:58:11 xd13: The only way is if all of them weren't consumed by developers I guess, which is unlikely :/ Jun 23 02:58:27 xd13: I'd say Nokia are fairly commited to MS in the medium-term. Jun 23 02:58:45 And with the ex-MS guy in charge, it'll probably stay that way :P **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jun 23 02:59:56 2011