**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jul 31 02:59:57 2011 Jul 31 03:00:15 I can't imagine any maemo fanatics would want a symbian powered device Jul 31 03:00:20 i lost the metal`1z Jul 31 03:01:40 pauly, out of curiosity, why would you ever want an n8? Jul 31 03:02:08 Tronic: wtf?! N9 not available in USA? citation needed - or stop spreading fud please. Jul 31 03:03:15 I don't know what that even means. What's to stop us from buying it from Europe and shipping it to the US? Jul 31 03:03:18 My N950 is sitting at my major city waiting to be processed by customs Jul 31 03:03:27 It so far, yet so near Jul 31 03:03:29 :p Jul 31 03:04:12 Termana: drink a cup of tea with MohammadAG ;-D Jul 31 03:05:07 hey docc Jul 31 03:05:11 err.. Jul 31 03:05:25 DocScrutinizer,* Jul 31 03:06:46 (not available) I'd be really surprised if Nokia wouldn't sell the first 9-band phone that really can deal with the 3rd world mess in USA exactly there in USA where the 9band makes most sense, and the warranty situation is better for manufacturers than anywhere in Europe Jul 31 03:06:52 my n900 has created another casualty ... the speakers in my pick-up are toast... i switched to a patch cable from using the fm tranmitter as there is something on every frequency now and the fm boosted crashed on my device Jul 31 03:08:01 o.O what? Jul 31 03:08:18 great full range output... Jul 31 03:08:41 oem speakers being better than they used to be but not good eenough Jul 31 03:09:20 * DocScrutinizer scratches head and wonders how to parse a single word of loft306 's story Jul 31 03:10:10 heh im getting ahead of self again Jul 31 03:10:33 imm tired been in confrences all day Jul 31 03:10:37 seems like his fm booster is the culprit if I read that right Jul 31 03:10:44 no Jul 31 03:10:56 i was hardwired into the line in Jul 31 03:11:06 FM booster boosts the output from maybe 30nW to 50nW Jul 31 03:11:14 It's nowhere near the power to damage anything Jul 31 03:11:18 then rephrase what you said about "fm boosted crashed my device" Jul 31 03:11:29 as i wasnt able to broadcast with enough power to drown out the fm stations Jul 31 03:12:06 fm booster didnt craash the device it just crashes on startup Jul 31 03:12:10 cant use it Jul 31 03:12:38 i had too many thoughts running together Jul 31 03:33:27 DocScrutinizer: http://www.puhelinvertailu.com/uutiset.cfm/2011/07/07/nokia_n9_n_tulossa_sittenkin_useampaan_maahan and other Finnish media. Yes, it is rumors, but it is based on Nokia websites. Jul 31 03:34:35 Germany, France, UK and USA are missing but a lot of smaller markets are listed. Jul 31 03:35:56 But then, it has been submitted to the FCC, which would suggest that they plan to release, I suppose. Jul 31 03:35:58 Tronic: there's a perfectl explanation for that: the online stores will close or already did. That doesn't mean Nokia won't ship N9 thru other channels Jul 31 03:36:23 like Amazon Jul 31 03:36:28 Either way, it is impossible to tell what the company is doing these days. It seems that different parts of it are doing quite the opposite of each-other. Jul 31 03:36:43 true that Jul 31 03:38:16 but the "Will not be available in $random-country" is clearly based on a WTF-moment about the short list of countries for availability check *through Nokia webshop* Jul 31 03:39:15 tronic: that has been true for a few years now Jul 31 03:39:18 no more US webshop -> no N9 available *via webshop*. Simple as that Jul 31 05:20:33 i've downloaded meego for n900, how to install meego beside maemo? Jul 31 05:21:25 TimmyT: Do you have a MicroSD card? Jul 31 05:21:45 That's the place to install it but be aware that it will run very slowly. Jul 31 05:22:15 it highly depends on which class microSD card you used Jul 31 05:22:28 (and look ugly as you get the community UX instead of Nokia Swipe or whatnot) Jul 31 05:22:38 hatake_kakashi: Doesn't really. Jul 31 05:22:54 Class 10 isn't really any faster on N900 :( Jul 31 05:23:39 well can't i shrink that 27 GB partition and isnstall meego on that? Jul 31 05:25:08 Tronic, and fyi meego was recommended to be installed on microSD, not the internal eMMC Jul 31 05:25:19 you can in theory Jul 31 05:25:19 and how to bootup that? by nolo? or it is possible to install grup on device? Jul 31 05:25:33 you have to use uboot Jul 31 05:25:58 nolo > uboot > you choose whether you want to boot maemo or meego Jul 31 05:26:04 y are u saying in theory? Jul 31 05:26:55 For good performance you should really use the 200 MB flash chip but then you definitely need to throw away the Maemo. Jul 31 05:27:05 because installation of meego onto eMMC isn't recommended and afaik nobody covered the idea of repartitioning the eMMC for meego to be installed onto that repartitioned portion Jul 31 05:27:10 Dunno how fast the eMMC is, probably not much better than MicroSD. Jul 31 05:29:06 and to use meego directly you won't have all the benefits that you normally get on maemo such as accelerated drivers and what not (certain builds of meego has acceleration mode but others are either broken or not working) Jul 31 05:29:26 should I add certain builds of meego images for N900 Jul 31 05:29:43 Tronic: im saying this because my microSD card is 512 MB Jul 31 05:30:19 Might just want to go buy yourself an 8GB card? they're like $25... Jul 31 05:30:26 even 16gb isn't that much Jul 31 05:31:05 robbiethe1st: well u know it's 1:30 am Jul 31 05:31:29 Well, it's not going to happen tonight... even messing with meego is going to be a number of hours Jul 31 05:32:01 it doesn't stop you from ordering one on the internet Jul 31 05:32:18 robbiethe1st: so it seems i've to choose another plan for tonight :p Jul 31 05:33:01 and desperation will only lead to a stuffed up setup Jul 31 05:33:12 Why not spend tonight improving Maemo? Jul 31 05:33:22 Install a few tweaks, mess with the transitions etc? Jul 31 05:33:31 it's ok, but i just wanted to know that y this is impossible or not recommended to install it on its internal storage Jul 31 05:33:41 maybe a good idea to also backup current setup as well :P Jul 31 05:33:56 robbiethe1st: i had an idea Jul 31 05:34:10 robbiethe1st: it was about a new theme Jul 31 05:34:11 Why? Because you've got to re-partition the emmc. You can't access it over USB(only the one partition is exposed) Jul 31 05:34:30 You'll have to do it on-device, which is sort of tricky; you've got no GUI tool to do it for you Jul 31 05:34:50 it isn't impossible, its just not recommended because one bad mistake could mean a complete reflash (especially with a fubared separate partition for meego on eMMC). Jul 31 05:34:58 Exactly Jul 31 05:35:35 The people who can figure out how to do it, well... they aren't going to be complaining that "OMG!!! MEEGo BrOKE My PHONE !!111!" Jul 31 05:36:07 or `how do i fix this? is broken! HELP!' Jul 31 05:36:54 maybe even add (urgent) as well and hoping their issues will be quickly addressed/attended to Jul 31 05:37:04 Exactly. I'd not have any trouble, but then again, I've reflashed a number of times, figured out how to flash on x64 linux, etc. I'm not going to be complaining if things fail. Jul 31 05:37:56 Took a few attempts to do the repartitioning with Maemo only (I wanted larger /opt). Reflash every time you did something in the wrong order or if you forgot something trivial. Jul 31 05:38:04 no im not going to say that, :D i was reading installation wiki , i saw it said u must install it on microSD cards, i thought it may has a certain reason, like being not able to bootup or somethin Jul 31 05:38:34 the reasons were stated above Jul 31 05:39:12 You just have to make sure the optfs partition is in the same partition # on the eMMC lest it won't boot Jul 31 05:54:22 my phone turn off automatically after upgrade Jul 31 05:54:26 to 1.3 Jul 31 05:57:43 gnu nano in maemo doesn't highlight codes but in pc does, why? Jul 31 06:04:46 ( For good performance you should) says who? also I *never* heard meego got installed on NAND Jul 31 06:05:28 ( because installation of meego onto eMMC isn't recommended and afaik nobody covered the idea of repartitioning the eMMC) MohammadAG did exactly that. A number of other meego users too Jul 31 06:06:39 (eMMC speed) class10 is a hoax mostly. ShadowJK found sandisk class4(?) being way faster on real OS performance than random class10 Jul 31 06:07:02 DocScrutinizer: so u r sayin it is ok? Jul 31 06:08:46 eye m ! say in t s ok Jul 31 06:09:37 DocScrutinizer: what part of the code has the partition table hard coded into it? Jul 31 06:09:50 which code? Jul 31 06:09:52 (I am assuming you have seen it) Jul 31 06:09:57 for maemo Jul 31 06:10:07 to add support for fstab Jul 31 06:10:40 check preinit Jul 31 06:20:29 DocScrutinizer, indeed, for those who know what they are doing :). I guess sandisk mobs knows what they are doing when it comes to performance on a chip/s. Though they are expensive piece of equipment, they don't offer class 10 32GB microSD (well not as far as I know of down here where I live) and that they are rather expensive. I should note too at one stage they marketed 32GB USB sticks with fairly low read/write performance (I can't remember wh Jul 31 06:20:31 ich, it was either one, the other or both) and many 32GB owners complained (source maybe obtained from sandisk website) Jul 31 06:22:29 inevitably the speeds can never be compared from a microSD to a NAND chip. a NAND chip may be far larger in size and has more connections to the physical board compared that to of microSD Jul 31 06:22:53 related:http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=918 Jul 31 06:37:29 DocScrutinizer: (NAND install) Me neither but it is the only fast piece of non-volatile memory on the device, right? Jul 31 06:38:11 interesting bit of article there on fake and real microSD Jul 31 06:38:34 Should be much more tolerant for system disk use (repeated writes on the same location) than memory cards. Jul 31 06:39:23 But just to be clear, I definitely don't recommend trying to install MeeGo on the integrated memory of the N900. Jul 31 06:40:00 Tronic: I don't think it's so much faster than uSD or eMMC. None of them deviates on even factor 2 from average over all 3 Jul 31 06:40:33 It would be nice if it were hacked to run on some affordable but new Android device (haven't heard of anyone doing this yet). Jul 31 06:41:19 for anti-vendor ports I'd possibly prefer SHR over meego Jul 31 06:42:05 in my book meego's main (if not only) advantage is vendor support Jul 31 06:42:13 What's SHR? Jul 31 06:42:43 ~shr Jul 31 06:42:44 shr is, like, The Stable Hybrid Release (SHR), intended to be a community driven distribution composed of the FSO and some basic applications, that can be configured to use several different graphical toolkits, for example GTK or EFL. SHR is based on the FSO build. At first, SHR was introduced in order to use the Openmoko2007.2 GTK software in combination with the new FSO, but things have changed. Jul 31 06:42:54 in my case, testing with what seems to be a genuine TopRAM microSD 32GB microSD memory card, it seems the internal Toshiba 32GB is somewhat slightly faster (using fff to compare Jul 31 06:43:17 ~fso Jul 31 06:43:18 methinks fso is the freesmartphone.org mobile devices middleware. Jul 31 06:43:26 :) Jul 31 06:44:04 OpenMoko may have been even more confusing than Nokia. Jul 31 06:44:07 Hardware Question: is there an externally powered USB OTG which charges the phone as well as powers the other usb device? Jul 31 06:44:43 I mean that "last minute" toolkit change. Jul 31 06:44:43 is there a what? Jul 31 06:44:54 a cable, a PSU, a mode? Jul 31 06:45:19 can you charge while in hostmode? Jul 31 06:45:30 ~hostmode-charging Jul 31 06:45:31 somebody said hostmode-powered was http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=921203#post921203 Jul 31 06:45:31 if yes, then a modified hub will do Jul 31 06:46:02 note please hostmode is NOT OTG Jul 31 06:46:38 I'll rename h-e-n to shino Jul 31 06:46:57 shino hostmode is not otg Jul 31 06:47:20 ;-P Jul 31 06:47:33 hmmm.... Jul 31 06:47:47 alright Jul 31 06:48:01 well ... whether hostmode or OTG ... as far as it connects another device :) Jul 31 06:48:43 what i wanna do is connect a 3G EVO USB Dongle ... its going to leech the phone's battery qiuckly Jul 31 06:48:57 looking for a remedy Jul 31 06:49:35 it's not going to work at all with embedded power Jul 31 06:50:02 so hostmode-powered will work? has anyone already done that? Jul 31 06:50:16 done what? Jul 31 06:50:26 connect 3G dongle? Jul 31 06:50:34 not really afaik Jul 31 06:51:34 :( Jul 31 06:51:59 though the photo I linked in ~hostmode-charging shows my 3G dongle, with the Y-cable it shipped with, and I powered it *in initial storage mode* from N900 Jul 31 06:52:29 at this point in time I'm thinking h-e-n is more of POC concept rather than the OEM's ideal approach to what USB hostmode/OTG really is meant to be on N900 Jul 31 06:52:53 anyway my N900 3G is just good enough - why would I want to connect an external 3G dongle? Jul 31 06:52:54 I'm sure one could easily relate to that :) Jul 31 06:53:46 because in my country, 3g is only availabe on evdo dongles :( Jul 31 06:54:28 hatake_kakashi: eh?? h-e-n never been and wasn't meant to be ""the OEM's ideal approach to what USB hostmode/OTG"" Jul 31 06:55:20 nevertheless for a PoC it's extremely popular Jul 31 06:55:29 DocScrutinizer, that's what I said :) meant to be POC *rather than* OEM's ideal approach to what USB hostmode/OTG is meant to be Jul 31 06:56:27 sorry, I don't get it, and it kinda feels annoying to see you ranting about h-e-n Jul 31 06:56:48 can i use a CDMA UIM with N900 in the SIM Card holder ? Jul 31 06:57:05 if you think it needs improvements, go ahead and get verbose Jul 31 06:57:28 * reenignEesreveR is trying to distract a flamewar Jul 31 06:58:06 I'm not slanting h-e-n. It is a nice functionality for those of us (yes including myself) wants to attach various other USB devices to N900. Afterall the Nokia N tablets had USB OTG (or at least the precedessor did) and N900 didn't have USB OTG which is a fairly dramatic letdown Jul 31 07:00:57 and I too also agree that PoC is getting rather popular, but sometimes also more often than not it is used in ways it was never meant to be, such as for illicit purposes. Not that in precise terms that USB OTG/hostmode for N900 can be used for illicit purposes but nobody said it was impossible on the contrary :) Jul 31 07:01:52 N900 is first NIT device with USB charging only, and to accomplish that and then also get the cert of USB board, they had to mess with OTG detection and broke some functions in hw. They had no time to run further spins on hw revisions testing and whatnot, so they accepted the fact and binned OTG and hostmode Jul 31 07:04:10 hatake_kakashi: sorry, the term "illicit purposes" makes no sense to me - and believe me I had no "illicit purposes" in mind I wanted to exclude from future h-e-n usecases when I waded through making it happen Jul 31 07:05:12 h-e-n came to life to turn N900 into a proper USB host. Nothing less, nothing more Jul 31 07:06:28 about charging hostmode nevertheless I thought thoroughly after basic functions worked just so good that my headache started to get better Jul 31 07:06:40 DocScrutinizer, heh I guess I should have been more clearer, I meant illicit purpose that doesn't redefine what the original PoC maker did. Much like Sony PS3's case of jailbreak kit later lead to pirated PS3 stuff. In theory USB hostmode could be used for instance in breaking other people's WEP quicker (notably with pk, aircrack-ng suite and the like) Jul 31 07:07:20 err uhuh Jul 31 07:07:55 Well, um... that's the reason you lock down everything, including all ports. Remember, if your pesky users can't use it, they can't /mis/-use it! Jul 31 07:07:56 and what means "original PoC maker" - wouldn't "you" be a shorter term? Jul 31 07:08:08 it is confusing, it isn't directly related but for that instance it is in the slightest hint of the sense made it possible Jul 31 07:08:50 `original PoC maker' I personally define it as whoever made this crack/flaw possible but never had any illicit intentions in mind Jul 31 07:09:12 made it possible? Jul 31 07:09:42 Volta made it possible when he invented electricity? Jul 31 07:10:16 made it possible as in easing the effect of one having to do it all by hand (which can be a rather cumbersome mode) Jul 31 07:10:34 I was quite a bit involved in gathering the info bits and designing the needed sw bits Jul 31 07:10:44 but I didn't make it possible Jul 31 07:11:04 again I'm not saying you had evil intentions, but such PoC like most others can be twisted into dark realms and be used as illicit tools, such as aircrack-ng, nmap, and what not Jul 31 07:11:15 well you had a UI afaik :) Jul 31 07:11:17 meh, I'm afk Jul 31 07:11:20 rather GUI Jul 31 07:11:23 this gets me dizzy Jul 31 07:11:48 what a nonsense Jul 31 07:12:15 enabling USB on a computer can be abused for illicit purposes - OK man Jul 31 07:12:22 o.O Jul 31 07:13:00 imagine! I could attach a relais card and trigger a bomb with it Jul 31 07:13:03 DUH Jul 31 07:13:22 ok I'll leave it at that :) I'm not going to argue on the finer specifics (I guess drunkedness is causing me slightly more verbose than usual) Jul 31 07:31:37 * DocScrutinizer51 wants to see hatake_kakashi do N900 hostmode "by hand" on a stock kernel :-P Jul 31 07:32:44 sounds like "doing WLAN by hand" when you are missing the kernel driver Jul 31 07:33:43 DocScrutinizer51, what's the point in that? as I stated before I'm not against you for the creation of USB host mode in general or even with USB hostmode/OTG :) Jul 31 07:42:45 I'm blaming the universe for laws of physics which seem to inadvertently make nuclear bombs, poisons, electrocution, violent video games, and usb host mode possible Jul 31 08:02:50 I am using phoneStream, I transfer audio to computer, open with VLC, but how to save that audio into an audio file ? Jul 31 08:34:39 Evanescence: tell vlc to do it Jul 31 08:39:16 does the traffic from this channel get saved in some searchable place? Jul 31 08:39:33 see topic Jul 31 08:39:34 yes Jul 31 08:39:35 @logs Jul 31 08:39:37 ~logs Jul 31 08:39:38 All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/%23maemo/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily. Jul 31 08:39:56 thank you Jul 31 08:43:12 sneaky Jul 31 09:11:15 Shapeshifter yes you are ;) Jul 31 09:11:59 but Shapeshifter this log does log lines starting with a space http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/latest.log.html :D Jul 31 09:59:20 hey, i have a question about an email i got from nokia, it says that the IM feature of the Contacts application (on my n900) is going to be "discontinued", and I'd have to get a Chat application from Ovi Store or whatever.. but there is no Chat app for n900 Jul 31 09:59:33 does this thing actually affect my msn and fb IM's? Jul 31 10:01:36 eikkka: msn and fb im on the n900 are done by a community extension from meamo extras Jul 31 10:01:54 I guess the email is about ovi messaging thing Jul 31 10:02:01 ah, i see Jul 31 10:03:21 so only thing's changing that i can't use Ovi chat through the normal conversations window? Jul 31 10:03:28 eikkka: are you sure it's about n900? Jul 31 10:03:28 (not using ovi anyway) Jul 31 10:03:34 eikkka: not about some symbian phones Jul 31 10:03:34 no i'm not Jul 31 10:03:39 exactly Jul 31 10:03:47 i doubt that they would be changing anything on n900 Jul 31 10:03:48 it says that i got the email because i've used the software on my phone Jul 31 10:04:31 You are receiving this email because you have used instant messaging (IM) from the Contacts application on your Nokia phone. Jul 31 10:04:34 but eh Jul 31 10:05:46 anyway i guess we'll see tomorrow when it's "discontinued" Jul 31 10:05:51 thanks Jul 31 10:09:28 game of thrones was awesome Jul 31 10:22:06 Ovi Chat will probably break tomorrow for all N900 users Jul 31 10:22:24 jacekowski, they're breaking the old API Jul 31 10:24:45 anyone used ovi chat? Jul 31 10:25:08 for all n900 users, that means approx 0 users right? :) Jul 31 10:25:37 (it never worked for me when it tried it once) Jul 31 10:27:52 how to disable auto checking feature of email in maemo?? Jul 31 10:29:14 TimmyT, email - titlebar menu - settings - scroll down - uncheck update automatically Jul 31 10:30:57 ShadowJK: aa, tnx dear, i think it is a little bit anoying when im using imap, Jul 31 15:37:32 anyone know of a native (c/c++) oauth lib that doesnt have a bajillion dependancies? Jul 31 15:37:56 currently treying to get liboauth to compile om maemo Jul 31 15:38:28 or is there a way i can call python from c and have it return the result somehow o_O Jul 31 15:38:38 know sfa about python ^^ Jul 31 15:38:58 python has an oauth lib -_- Jul 31 15:39:16 dont want no localhost proxies Jul 31 16:18:53 Problem: On my n900 I always see a wlan AP called Free Public WiFi, no matter if I'm in the middle of nowhere. I can't connect to it. How do I get rid of it? Jul 31 16:22:05 Shapeshifter, lol Jul 31 16:22:12 internet connections dialog Jul 31 16:22:15 in settings Jul 31 16:23:17 I guess that happens for Ad-hoc networks. Jul 31 16:23:59 I have one that is "stuck" on mine too. Jul 31 16:55:13 lcuk: mhh that was sufficient. I thought it was something more serious Jul 31 16:56:27 is there a function equivalent to MessageBox() in mameo? Jul 31 16:56:40 to create a modal dialog with some text in it and a button Jul 31 16:56:55 without using ie qt Jul 31 16:56:59 hello all Jul 31 16:57:06 is there such a thing as encrypting my whole maemo phone? Jul 31 16:57:32 blendtec offer some nice one way encryption devices Jul 31 16:57:42 haha Jul 31 16:59:38 aww maaaaan Jul 31 16:59:48 i gotta use hildon to make dialogs Jul 31 17:00:05 was kinda hoping for a catch all easy to use no mess function Jul 31 17:00:17 instead of YET MORE BLOODY DEPENDANCIES >:[ Jul 31 17:00:42 * fusi grumbles Jul 31 17:00:46 i will keep searching Jul 31 17:00:46 lcuk: sheesh Jul 31 17:00:54 lcuk: I'll take that as a "no" Jul 31 17:01:12 I find the phone quite terrible security-wise, which is surprising considering the linux Jul 31 17:01:13 besides the rootfs Jul 31 17:01:25 you can encrypt home, MyDocs, the swap partition... Jul 31 17:01:46 NIN101: i'm not getting any love on tmo on how to do it. is there some unified doc on the matter? Jul 31 17:02:12 hm. Jul 31 17:02:36 hmmm dbus Jul 31 17:04:17 home is easy Jul 31 17:04:22 eh I meant, MyDocs is easy. Jul 31 17:04:43 I would not recommend encryption of the home partition for beginners. Jul 31 17:06:09 doesn't seem like the phone can be hardened with any ease Jul 31 17:06:47 i guess I'll wipe my n810 and use that Jul 31 17:06:51 Not easily, no. Jul 31 17:07:05 SpeedEvil: can you imagine it with current tools? Jul 31 17:07:12 easy or hard? Jul 31 17:07:20 orangey: I can imagine anything! Jul 31 17:07:30 And depending on what you want to do - hard Jul 31 17:07:47 If you want the entire device encrypted - contacts and all - you're going to have to go in quite deep. Jul 31 17:08:10 If you want to have teh software encrypted too - it gets lots messier still. Jul 31 17:08:20 i'm not asking for much Jul 31 17:08:29 just something that would stand up to a sophisticated state adversary Jul 31 17:08:30 ; ) Jul 31 17:08:30 You need to basically start off at the bootloader, and then heavily patch all the startup scripts. Jul 31 17:08:43 i'm just careful with my phone.. Jul 31 17:08:48 seems to do the job Jul 31 17:09:18 And an encrypted /home/ is PITA after a reflash. Jul 31 17:09:21 In principle a bootloader that booted, and took a key from a connected USB keydrive. Jul 31 17:09:28 Would work Jul 31 17:09:43 this is not needed. Jul 31 17:09:55 enrypting is EASY. Just booting starts to get nasty impossible from there on XP Jul 31 17:10:30 SCNR Jul 31 17:10:33 XP? What does that have to do with it? Jul 31 17:10:38 X-P Jul 31 17:10:43 ;-P Jul 31 17:10:56 SpeedEvil: yeah, that would be the ideal. Jul 31 17:10:59 I'm sure you get USB keys with 'forget' buttons on. Jul 31 17:11:00 (emoticon) Jul 31 17:11:05 I forget where I've seen them. Jul 31 17:11:21 orangey: But you'd also need the device to shut off when it gets out of your hands. Jul 31 17:11:33 SpeedEvil: the other big issue will be locking when it sleeps / laeves me Jul 31 17:11:36 SpeedEvil: right Jul 31 17:11:49 sd? cant reliably be erased Jul 31 17:11:55 It can't be in a state to take calls - if it's not on your person Jul 31 17:12:00 saw a paper on that a while ago Jul 31 17:12:01 fusi: I said USB drives, not S. Jul 31 17:12:05 fusi: SD Jul 31 17:12:13 orangey: you *should* keep your precious data in a special crypted filesystem that you don't need for booting and can loopmount any time Jul 31 17:12:18 fusi: And I mean ones specifically designed for security Jul 31 17:12:40 well, anything flash based Jul 31 17:12:54 DocScrutinizer: as it happens, it's my contacts that would need encryption most Jul 31 17:12:58 best one ive seen it the one that physically destroys its insides Jul 31 17:13:02 only way to be safe Jul 31 17:13:06 fusi: It's really not Jul 31 17:13:09 orangey: the you have a hard time Jul 31 17:13:12 fusi: Low-level flash is quite volatile. Jul 31 17:13:18 http://nin101.uni.cx/N900/crypto/encrypted_home/ but as said, I do not recommend that for beginners, as it's likely that they will mess something up. My setup: I boot, and enter a LUKS key(fbcon console), then after lock code and pin, an autostart truecrypt mount for MyDocs.... Jul 31 17:13:18 I'm talking about making contact with people while collecting human rights violations in hostile states Jul 31 17:13:23 fusi: If a block has been block erase, it's gone. Jul 31 17:13:36 SpeedEvil: ill see if i can find the article.. Jul 31 17:13:55 fusi: The hard part is that in many devices, the firmware handles the eraseblocks, and may not quite do that with all data. Jul 31 17:13:59 NIN101: I am no newbie Jul 31 17:14:08 fusi: The low-level storage media is quite erasable. Jul 31 17:14:18 ah Jul 31 17:14:23 so its a controller issue Jul 31 17:14:25 fusi: the data left over in "unused" blocks is a common problem to all fs Jul 31 17:14:51 SpeedEvil: something something electron microscope blah blah Jul 31 17:15:11 kerio: naah - doesn't help Jul 31 17:15:22 here http://www.usenix.org/events/fast11/tech/full_papers/Wei.pdf Jul 31 17:15:28 i suspect the best way to do this is paper that I light on fire Jul 31 17:15:41 orangey: or an SD that you light on fire Jul 31 17:15:48 fusi: See also http://news.techworld.com/security/3263093/ssd-fimware-destroys-digital-evidence-researchers-find/ Jul 31 17:15:50 yay data density Jul 31 17:16:07 kerio: I wouldn't trust an SSD to be destroyed. Jul 31 17:16:14 rather, SD Jul 31 17:16:16 SpeedEvil: heheh was just going to post that from here http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/01/self_destructing_flash_drives/ Jul 31 17:16:20 heh Jul 31 17:16:20 orangey: huh? Jul 31 17:16:22 SpeedEvil: yeah, that was encouraging Jul 31 17:16:32 * SpeedEvil notes that microSDs can be chomped up in your teeth with only minor damage. Jul 31 17:16:35 orangey: very little survives a thermal lance Jul 31 17:16:47 fusi: I know - that paper doesn't reveal anything new to me. Jul 31 17:16:49 i drove over one of my sd cards once in a gravel carparl >.< Jul 31 17:16:53 was fine ^^ Jul 31 17:16:55 NIN101: your setup sounds rather nifty and evolved Jul 31 17:17:00 kerio: but who knows about all the garbage left behind while manipulating that data Jul 31 17:17:00 few deep scratches :) Jul 31 17:17:04 Once a microSD is physically damaged - snapped in half - you are not getting any data out. Jul 31 17:17:16 NIN101: do you deal with swap? Jul 31 17:17:20 yes I do Jul 31 17:17:21 Unless you're willing to invest truly many millions in it. Jul 31 17:17:22 SpeedEvil: blah blah electron microscope something something Jul 31 17:17:27 thx. Jul 31 17:17:27 NIN101: cool Jul 31 17:17:32 kerio: It's really debatable that works even. Jul 31 17:17:35 hehe Jul 31 17:17:44 SpeedEvil: micro sd is the best thing to use because, of course, it's so easy to hide. Jul 31 17:17:55 s/hide/chomp up and swallow/ Jul 31 17:17:58 once found, it has to be assumed completely compromised, though Jul 31 17:18:09 but again, a thermal lance is preferrable Jul 31 17:18:17 and if you really care about your data, truecrypt Jul 31 17:18:20 kerio: ouch Jul 31 17:18:22 with fake data on the upper level Jul 31 17:18:35 * DocScrutinizer hands kerio salt, pepper, and tabasco sauce Jul 31 17:18:53 DocScrutinizer: i'm not swallowing a thermal lance Jul 31 17:19:04 uSD is sharp enough Jul 31 17:19:21 that's why you chomp it Jul 31 17:19:21 :) Jul 31 17:19:29 kerio: you have a lead on some pocket thermal lances that won't arouse suspicion in airports? Jul 31 17:19:35 kerio: this is IRC, allow for lags on answers Jul 31 17:19:38 * SpeedEvil ponders. Jul 31 17:19:48 I wonder about selling a microSD reader. Jul 31 17:19:56 Hello Jul 31 17:20:01 With an added feature that snaps the microSD in half when you press a button Jul 31 17:20:09 Or it's pulled off a lanyard Jul 31 17:20:11 HEHEHE Jul 31 17:20:12 SpeedEvil: god, why? Jul 31 17:20:13 just use encryption, really Jul 31 17:20:26 SpeedEvil: that would result 99 times out of 100 in accidental destruction Jul 31 17:20:36 GOOD Jul 31 17:20:42 orangey: Sometimes accidental destruction is just fine. That's what backups are for. Jul 31 17:20:55 encrypted backups! Jul 31 17:20:56 SpeedEvil: you'd have to personally vet every customer Jul 31 17:20:57 i have a problem with my N900, when i try to run something really heavy on the cpu (installing a shitload of debs in a chroot) it just reboots or Xterm closes Jul 31 17:21:02 orangey: Why? Jul 31 17:21:04 and spare cards are available thru our omlime shop, at as little as $99 Jul 31 17:21:07 its connected to the charger Jul 31 17:21:11 SpeedEvil: to save them from themselves Jul 31 17:21:32 peterbjornx: are you overclocking Jul 31 17:21:33 I would have a pay-per-minute support line for data recovery. Jul 31 17:21:43 Where I get paid to laugh at people. Jul 31 17:21:46 "sorry. you're fucked. 2.99 please" Jul 31 17:21:49 i tried that, but it also happens at 600Mhz Jul 31 17:21:51 LOL Jul 31 17:21:54 it does not overheat Jul 31 17:22:17 OK, time to show my n810 some love Jul 31 17:22:19 it's been a while Jul 31 17:22:24 :) Jul 31 17:22:26 really though, what's wrong with truecrypt Jul 31 17:22:34 i don't understand Jul 31 17:22:55 kerio: not comprehensive enough for my use case Jul 31 17:23:04 With truecrypt you can be required to reveal the key. Jul 31 17:23:09 In many legislations. Jul 31 17:23:11 the true conclusion is that it is impossible to do what I need technologically with an n900 Jul 31 17:23:17 Or face contempt of court. Jul 31 17:23:18 zomfg i just compiled liboauth for maemo \o/ o// \\o \o/ Jul 31 17:23:20 orangey: not quite Jul 31 17:23:27 orangey: It's difficult, but quite possible. Jul 31 17:23:30 peterbjornx: run: nice Jul 31 17:23:38 SpeedEvil: essentially impossible.. Jul 31 17:23:40 SpeedEvil: that's what the upper level with gay foot fetish brazilian fart porn is for Jul 31 17:23:46 SpeedEvil: I'm speaking practically here. Jul 31 17:23:47 orangey: I'd pay $5 say if you can get it done. Jul 31 17:24:03 orangey: It's quite practical - there is no software reason it can't be done. Jul 31 17:24:22 SpeedEvil: to do what I want, we're talking WDE Jul 31 17:24:25 orangey: you missed NIN101 's comments Jul 31 17:24:34 DocScrutinizer: I read it all Jul 31 17:24:34 WDE? Jul 31 17:24:39 whole disk encryption Jul 31 17:24:43 yes. Jul 31 17:24:55 It's not technologically hard. All the parts are there. Jul 31 17:25:01 It's just annoying to put in place. Jul 31 17:25:04 SpeedEvil: NIN101 approach seems just good enough Jul 31 17:25:06 if they force you to open the volume, you break down crying, open it, and show the porn while apologizing to no one in particular Jul 31 17:25:42 SpeedEvil: I use wde with my regular computers and a CD to get the whole thing started Jul 31 17:26:14 but it's true that to do that with a phone more or less is no good. Jul 31 17:26:26 are you james bond ^^ Jul 31 17:27:03 fusi: just a super paranoid dude. Jul 31 17:27:09 orangey: It's not no good. Jul 31 17:27:11 even more than me. Jul 31 17:27:16 orangey: It requires some compromises. Jul 31 17:27:20 do i need to raise or lower the priority Jul 31 17:27:27 what causes the reboot Jul 31 17:27:33 orangey: why would you need WDE? isn't encryption of $HOME and MyDocs just enough? Jul 31 17:27:46 is it the program that reboots the device incase Xorg/hildon stops responding? Jul 31 17:27:52 orangey: For example, a means to keep the phone on you at all times, and shut off. As well as a boot key that you can destroy the key on. Jul 31 17:28:04 Then there are the meta-questions. Jul 31 17:28:23 SpeedEvil: why compromise, though? so that I can have a shiny phone to play with? Jul 31 17:28:47 not rly my area all this ^^ gonna go fiddle with liboauth Jul 31 17:28:51 orangey: Compromise in terms of operation, not shinyness. Jul 31 17:28:51 peterbjornx: nice defaults to increasing niceness aka lowering prio Jul 31 17:28:54 gl on ur quest orangey :) Jul 31 17:28:56 o/ Jul 31 17:29:11 DocScrutinizer: without wde, you can never be fully sure somebody hasn't tampered around. then you're playing with something you think is secure,w hich is worse than assuming that your system is insecure Jul 31 17:29:26 but why does xterm get killed if it uses 100% CPU Jul 31 17:29:27 orangey: wait for N9 Jul 31 17:29:32 THE device for you Jul 31 17:29:34 DocScrutinizer: why? Jul 31 17:29:42 orangey: All computers today have a boot ROM in the CPU. You don't know what it does. Jul 31 17:29:42 lol. Jul 31 17:29:46 has full MSSF framework Jul 31 17:29:52 orangey: You can't get source. Jul 31 17:30:03 DocScrutinizer: I will admit that I'm probably leaving maemo after my n900 dies (in many years, hopefully) Jul 31 17:30:09 I love my n900 so much. Jul 31 17:30:24 I literally cried when elop did his thing Jul 31 17:30:35 ~tell orangey about aegis Jul 31 17:31:03 I can't imagine anything even close to maemo's conversations, for example Jul 31 17:31:07 but why does xterm get killed if it uses 100% CPU Jul 31 17:31:10 and the contact management is unparalleled. Jul 31 17:31:40 orangey: In adition, in a PC, every single device on the PCIe bus with firmware (that's all of them) is a vector you have no source for. Jul 31 17:31:52 orangey: obviously this also means *you* (the user) also don't have any more control over the device, as the concept is based on the assumption every user might be rogue Jul 31 17:32:24 And as I point out to DocScrutinizer every time, in principle, with truste computing, the user can have the keys. Jul 31 17:32:34 s/user/owner/ Jul 31 17:32:34 SpeedEvil meant: And as I point out to DocScrutinizer every time, in principle, with truste computing, the owner can have the keys. Jul 31 17:32:46 The fact the owner does not have the keys is the objectionable part. Jul 31 17:32:47 so as the MSSF can't distinguish you from a rogue attacker sneaking in some sniffer to your device, it is based on the concept that *nobody* can do this without certification from Nokia Jul 31 17:32:54 in Nikia we trust ;-P Jul 31 17:34:05 can someone answer me Jul 31 17:34:27 SpeedEvil: how would you make sure no CIA or Mossad or whatever easily gets your "private key printed on page 0" from their comprehensive database they got from dunno where? Jul 31 17:34:51 peterbjornx: shouldn't get killed on 100% CPU usage Jul 31 17:35:05 DocScrutinizer: In principle the key could be writeable. Jul 31 17:35:08 doesn't get killed here Jul 31 17:36:19 I think we've gone above and beyond here : ) Jul 31 17:36:22 thank you to all, though Jul 31 17:36:28 SpeedEvil: in principle... we could tweak TC speks until we finally got sth that has nothing in common with current TC/TPM design and concept, and that would finally meet your ideas then Jul 31 17:36:42 the reality is *different* though Jul 31 17:36:44 we've probably more than sufficiently answered two questions: 1) not all that practical to do; 2) we need help. REAL help Jul 31 17:36:53 TPM isn't built to change root key Jul 31 17:37:29 Current implementations are not, no. Jul 31 17:37:43 orangey: It's quite practical to do, if you have the skills. Jul 31 17:37:54 and the time. Jul 31 17:38:04 orangey: There are no fundamentally very hard bits - all of the heavy lifting has been done - it's just effort and time. Jul 31 17:38:21 SpeedEvil: there is nothing practical about trying to test and execute a WDE on which people's lives may rely Jul 31 17:38:54 orangey: Err - what? The technical implementation is fairly straightforward. Jul 31 17:39:06 The hard part is turning off when you put the device down. Jul 31 17:39:35 In addition - you do kow that the modem will tell the tower its location whenever it's on, if asked from the GPS? Jul 31 17:40:06 Without any software action at all, and you have no security for calls from the telco Jul 31 17:40:44 SpeedEvil: it will actually try to get a satellite gps lock? Jul 31 17:40:51 SpeedEvil: or do you just mean through the agps thing? Jul 31 17:40:51 yes Jul 31 17:40:52 yes Jul 31 17:40:57 *shudder* Jul 31 17:41:17 anyway, the location security is something I've run into before. Jul 31 17:41:17 GPS has a msg "please get GPS" and modem will try to obbey Jul 31 17:41:28 s/GPS/GSM/ Jul 31 17:41:29 DocScrutinizer meant: GSM has a msg "please get GPS" and modem will try to obbey Jul 31 17:41:34 Any time the modem is connected to a tower the tower can ask the phone to do lots of stuff. Jul 31 17:41:42 Entirely seperate from the linux side. Jul 31 17:41:48 it's common enough that I actually physically unplug the battery when I go on these trips Jul 31 17:42:10 the only way you can tell is you might get an instant GPS lock if you turn GPS on Jul 31 17:42:33 (and 50mA more draw) Jul 31 17:44:20 yup Jul 31 17:45:16 but, can we not request the modem firmware source and comment out the code responsible Jul 31 17:45:20 irony, i can get the device on wallwart to show the usb checking symbol. Jul 31 17:45:23 or code in bullshit coordinates Jul 31 17:45:32 when i use usb on any computer it will not come on Jul 31 17:45:40 but then, if the phone is connected to any BTS, they already got your location to a precision of ~+/-250m Jul 31 17:45:42 peterbjornx: No Jul 31 17:45:51 peterbjornx: The GSM code is on a seperate core Jul 31 17:45:58 i know it is Jul 31 17:46:05 peterbjornx: It is not bound by the GPL. Jul 31 17:46:18 ok, then cantwe disassemble it Jul 31 17:46:27 You can dissasemble it. Jul 31 17:46:32 peterbjornx: the modem firmware is hash-signed Jul 31 17:46:36 But not flash it, as it's cryptographically secured. Jul 31 17:46:54 darn, i hate such things Jul 31 17:47:56 but, what (besides low battery and overheat) will cause a n900 to spontaneously reboot Jul 31 17:48:16 peterbjornx: pretty difficult to answer Jul 31 17:48:42 as on multiple attempts at running apt-get install kde in a chroot it just reboots Jul 31 17:48:57 usually some basic system process (e.g. bme) will act up, and dsme fails on restarting it, so dsme says "time for a reboot!" Jul 31 17:49:33 so, "nice" should indeed work Jul 31 17:49:42 at the cost of slowing the process even more Jul 31 17:49:45 maybe apt-get install is executing an offending preinstall script or sth like that Jul 31 17:49:58 or simply is eating up 100% of rootfs space Jul 31 17:50:07 neither, its a chroot Jul 31 17:50:19 but before the reboot all GUI components freeze Jul 31 17:50:33 ooh, the apt-get running *inside* chroot? Jul 31 17:50:53 peterbjornx: You've probably run out of swap - I guess Jul 31 17:50:59 xterm and the whole desktop env freeze Jul 31 17:51:00 and not using bindmounts to e.g /tmp etc Jul 31 17:51:02 ? Jul 31 17:51:12 hmm Jul 31 17:51:16 that might be it Jul 31 17:51:25 im using ezchroot Jul 31 17:51:32 trying a normal chroot now Jul 31 17:52:13 peterbjornx: you looked at syslog? Jul 31 17:53:33 also SpeedEvil 's suspicion about running short on mem/swap has some point Jul 31 17:54:20 but, does that really cause a restart Jul 31 17:54:30 yes, sure Jul 31 17:54:31 i guess it would just kill dpkg Jul 31 17:54:34 eventually it will Jul 31 17:55:04 yeah, you'd think it should just kill dpkg, but reality is different Jul 31 17:55:11 was there an ocr package available for fremantle? Jul 31 17:55:54 ill create a 2 gig swapfile on emmc Jul 31 17:56:01 OOM will not detect the multiple dpkg processes each eating "only" a few xx MB of RAM Jul 31 17:56:40 peterbjornx: you're doing sth nasty, I don't think 2GB additional swap are the answer Jul 31 17:57:20 NB there are already 0.8GB swap Jul 31 18:00:50 look, 2 days ago I visited a webpage that had ~400 URLs pointing to files that I planned to download. I was naive enough to use KDE kget's "add all URLs to list of downloads" function, and that pretty much killed my 2GBram 6GB swap 2GHz Intel pentium duo laptop Jul 31 18:01:44 just saying: check your procedures, rather than trying to add swap space Jul 31 18:01:44 ok, but installing kde is done on desktops all the time, without problem Jul 31 18:02:07 ive installed kde on desktop with 3 gig total ram (real+swap) Jul 31 18:02:27 peterbjornx: how's that on topic now? Jul 31 18:03:43 I was talking about your dpkg calls maybe get parallelized, or you are installing a package that has 500 dependencies that get auto-installed to dpkg ram usage explodes, or sth like that Jul 31 18:04:00 as i expect a n900 with (im adding 3 gig swap) 3,8GB swap and 0,2GB ram should be able to do that Jul 31 18:04:14 pfff Jul 31 18:04:14 im installing the metapackage so yes a lot of deps Jul 31 18:04:20 see? Jul 31 18:04:26 you can not do that Jul 31 18:04:33 on virtually no system Jul 31 18:05:49 get a list of dependencies and install then one by one, like >># for f in `cat list-of-depends`; do dpkg -i $f; done Jul 31 18:06:23 or i could use debootstrap --include to create the chroot with it Jul 31 18:06:41 err wut? Jul 31 18:08:49 you do know what debootstrap is right? Jul 31 18:08:56 no Jul 31 18:09:06 its a tool to create a chroot Jul 31 18:09:10 and I'm not really interested in learning it right now Jul 31 18:09:31 it doesnt use apt get and does dependencys like you said Jul 31 18:12:45 whats he keyb shortcut to restart x? (in sdk) Jul 31 18:12:56 screensaver has come on and it wont go away :/ Jul 31 18:14:54 killall xephyr ? Jul 31 18:15:00 cant get to a console Jul 31 18:15:24 errr wut? your SDK locked the host system? Jul 31 18:16:11 http://www.sekaita.com/ohdear.png Jul 31 18:16:13 nono Jul 31 18:16:16 the vm image Jul 31 18:16:35 there's still a host system Jul 31 18:17:00 yea the vurtial host is bork Jul 31 18:17:03 xephyr just a process on host system, and inside that your emu is running Jul 31 18:17:30 yea, this is the host that has esbox in it Jul 31 18:17:38 the screensaver came on Jul 31 18:18:00 resizing the window it 'looks' like its still running because its a bit slow repainting Jul 31 18:18:10 and i can see the dt bg Jul 31 18:18:38 sorry Jul 31 18:19:00 in xp atm, with maemo sdk vm image in a vmware Jul 31 18:19:28 never mind ill just go back to a snapshot Jul 31 18:19:35 so inside vm click the close button of the xephyr window Jul 31 18:19:45 did u see the link i posted Jul 31 18:19:57 no Jul 31 18:20:08 I'm filteriung random links Jul 31 18:20:35 ok dont worry bout it Jul 31 18:22:10 wp.emulate(vmware-linux-emulate(qemu-run(maemo))) Jul 31 18:24:24 or rather wp.run(vmware-linux-emulation.run(xephyr.run(qemu.run(maemo)))) Jul 31 18:26:15 there's still xephyr.close(maemo), and vmware-linux.kill(xephyr) Jul 31 18:38:47 how to use xmpp/jabber to login into yahoo? (yahoo transport) Jul 31 19:00:35 peterbjornx: if the problem is swapping, which I'm pretty sure it is, adding more swap will only make it worse. Jul 31 19:01:29 can i disable DSME? Jul 31 19:01:36 temporarily Jul 31 19:01:41 so my n900 wont reboot Jul 31 19:04:46 in my experience, when I used to try that stuff, it must be the hardware watchdog timer triggering, not sure if there's a way to turn that off Jul 31 19:08:09 looks like enabling R&D mode allows you to kill the watchdog Jul 31 19:10:03 other than that, I haven't found anything beyond just trying not to give the system that much system load for more than a minute at a time Jul 31 19:14:11 hihi. i have a maemo phone here and i need to find the wpa2 key i have set. i lost it but i probably could somehoe recover it. but it seems that maemo is not using wpa_supplicant Jul 31 19:14:33 any idea where the plaintext password could be saved? Jul 31 19:16:14 install the app Jul 31 19:16:18 gconf editor Jul 31 19:16:29 it should be in there somewhere Jul 31 19:16:36 i stumpled upon my pw in there Jul 31 19:18:18 system->osso->connectivity->IAP Jul 31 19:18:28 then one of the entries is your wlan Jul 31 19:22:03 sigh, it seems i damaged the app cataloge by moving from fremantle 1.2 to 1.3 Jul 31 19:22:12 right now i have only 10apps in the cataloge Jul 31 19:23:34 peterbjornx: thanks for your idea anyway Jul 31 19:23:56 http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?t=41164 < i found this about IM passwords, but i need the one wlan password... Jul 31 19:25:13 http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?p=207304 < i think this is what you were referring to Jul 31 19:30:41 ever do three way call? Jul 31 19:30:51 stupid question, but how do you do it? Jul 31 19:31:00 Is it phone or provider dependent? Jul 31 19:31:35 does anyone in here know how to get chroot + sudo to work in scratchbox Jul 31 19:36:07 peterbjornx: you can't Jul 31 19:36:29 why not? Jul 31 19:36:48 i gave up on trying to create that chroot img on my n900 Jul 31 19:36:49 so Jul 31 19:36:50 because chroot requires you to be root Jul 31 19:36:56 sudo... Jul 31 19:37:04 cant that be fixed? Jul 31 19:37:06 sudo won't work in scratchbox Jul 31 19:37:18 unless that would be x86 scratchbox Jul 31 19:37:22 ok Jul 31 19:37:22 but that defeats the purpose Jul 31 19:37:41 whats wrong with fakeroot? Jul 31 19:37:57 fakeroot? Jul 31 19:38:49 rtfm Jul 31 19:39:29 just did Jul 31 19:39:37 fakeroot won't make chroot work Jul 31 19:39:48 chroot is a kernel syscall that requires you to be root Jul 31 19:39:57 there is a fakechroot too, dunno if thats ported to scratchbox Jul 31 19:40:02 but would it fix dpkg Jul 31 19:40:15 fakeroot fixes dpkg Jul 31 19:40:18 ok Jul 31 19:40:20 if that's what you need Jul 31 19:40:32 yepee found it! Jul 31 19:41:16 good that the n900 has a shell with grep :-) Jul 31 19:41:44 cya! and thanks a lot Jul 31 19:44:37 peterbjornx: when you're running out of RAM then no stopping watchdogs/DSME will help you out Jul 31 19:46:29 its not ram Jul 31 19:46:35 i had conky running Jul 31 19:46:41 cpu at 100% Jul 31 19:46:48 swap at 20% Jul 31 19:47:30 peterbjornx: once the kernel kswapd is busy with swapping for more than 60s, I gather there's nothing really that can help you out of this situation than a very welcome hw watchdog, or just pulling battery. Unless you are willing to wait for weeks or months for your process to finish while it swaps 4GB in and out permanently Jul 31 19:48:49 ok then how the hell do i do this Jul 31 19:48:57 DocScrutinizer: i once left my old PC for few days Jul 31 19:49:12 DocScrutinizer: it took it 4 days before OOM killer decided to do it's job Jul 31 19:49:50 jacekowski: yoh Jul 31 19:49:59 how do i do this install Jul 31 19:50:03 jacekowski: been there, seen that Jul 31 19:50:40 hi, I'm doing my j2me "hello world!" (with microemulator), does one knows about the possible reasons for "java.net.MalformedURLException: Unable to find class ... URL" ? Jul 31 19:51:39 r4ph431: The reasons would vary depending on if it's your class or one of microemulator's/JRE's which is wrong Jul 31 19:54:57 jacekowski: once your linked list of data objects exceeds the size your system can keep in ram, each walk down the list will slow down from n microseconds to nnn milliseconds due to swapping hell. Such huge linked lists are especially likely to be seen in package managers when dealing with huge trees of dependencies in packages Jul 31 19:56:53 yast of first opensuse version was notorious to act like that, probably because of that friggin red carpet thing they tried to plumb on and also due to mono (UGH!! :-o) Jul 31 19:57:35 or was it last suse suse version before they went opensuse? can't remember Jul 31 19:59:52 same effect occured on OM opkg when doing an upgrade Jul 31 20:00:08 well the device was really short on RAM ;-D Jul 31 20:02:07 the solution always is the same: get a list of missing/updateable pkgs, then install/update each pkg without caring about dependencies. Once you're thru with all the single-pkg-install, you start up your "smart" pkg manager again to check the dependencies once more Jul 31 20:03:05 hoping there aren't any unmet left, or if there are then so few that the pkgmanager can deal with the size of the resulting data object list Jul 31 20:12:30 So are three way calls dependent on the phone or carrier? Jul 31 20:12:41 both Jul 31 20:13:34 actually freeing up one MB or even a few kB of ram, e.g. by kiling another process, can speed up such a package manager in a critical situation by factor 10^6, if it's just the amound of RAM that is missing to keep the complete list resident Jul 31 20:14:37 shorting the list of objects by kicking one package out of the repository can have the same speedup effect Jul 31 20:20:20 jacekowski: ok, how do you do it on the n900? Jul 31 20:20:31 It does call waiting when I try Jul 31 20:24:07 internetishard: if you fail to do it via dialer gui, there's always the service codes you enter via touchtone keypad. Jul 31 20:24:27 dunno if it really works on N900, it's supposed to work at least Jul 31 20:30:16 i don't think n900 can do conference calls Jul 31 20:30:57 why not? Jul 31 20:31:29 cause i have the patent on it! Jul 31 20:31:37 conference call is a service established in the exchange of your provider, you only need the right signalling to control that feature Jul 31 20:33:04 iirc the codes are along **0 to **3 (0 usually ending sth, 3 entering conference mode) 1 and 2 is for switching between first and second call iirc Jul 31 20:33:17 Hmm Jul 31 20:33:33 Conference call with the different people coming out of different speakers would be cool Jul 31 20:34:55 They're both long distance if that matters Jul 31 20:35:02 so: ** put on hold; 0 reject waiting call, 1 accept another call waiting Jul 31 20:35:24 you just type 1 when you've an incoming call you want to add? Jul 31 20:35:32 SpeedEvil: technically your phone has only one established call Jul 31 20:35:50 I know. Jul 31 20:35:54 so you can't split the 2 far ends to different audio destinations Jul 31 20:36:04 (barring SIP/...) Jul 31 20:36:19 SIP does it differently, yes Jul 31 20:36:31 as there's no exchange at all Jul 31 20:37:12 yay PAN tethering Jul 31 20:37:15 \o/ Jul 31 20:37:28 decently fast, too. 1.5 down, 0.5 up. not too bad. Jul 31 20:37:36 * SpeedEvil is doing pan tethering in the kitchen Jul 31 20:37:48 Currently working out hte right height for the shelves. Jul 31 20:38:04 But this was a bit of pain, setting it up. It was easy in the end but finding exactly the right info was difficult Jul 31 20:38:15 This kind of thing should work out of the box at the touch of a button. Jul 31 20:38:28 SpeedEvil: :D Jul 31 20:38:45 internetishard: get your provider's howto about 3-way via network service codes Jul 31 20:39:10 usally all just follow the 3GPP recommendations Jul 31 20:39:31 Shapeshifter: This is to what device? Jul 31 20:39:42 SpeedEvil: an archlinux lap top. Jul 31 20:39:50 SpeedEvil: n900 providing. Jul 31 20:41:16 internetishard: http://www.arib.or.jp/IMT-2000/V730Jul09/5_Appendix/R99/22/22030-340.pdf p16 >> 6.5.5 Handling of supplementary services within a call Jul 31 20:41:59 thanks! Jul 31 20:42:42 Shapeshifter: ah - neat Jul 31 20:45:20 internetishard: please report if it works for you. I can't test this as my provider doesn't support call-waiting etc Jul 31 20:46:02 Ok Jul 31 20:46:13 can't believe I didn't see it on the forums... Seems like something common and necessary Jul 31 20:47:49 That 99.9% of people don't use I suspect. Jul 31 20:49:56 And sip also works great. good stuff. I can hardly believe how badly android performes with sip. Jul 31 20:53:16 internetishard: please note you probably may want to have *#-ena http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=756257 installed, just in case it makes a difference on how N900 modem is processing the codes. Also IIRC some carriers may require a leading * or ** or a trailing # attached to the numeric codes, to distinguish them from simple DTMF sent to the far end Jul 31 20:55:17 so the sequence to accept a waiting call is either "2" or "*2" or "**2" or "2#" Jul 31 20:55:38 thanks for the clarification Jul 31 20:56:06 if neither works on a N900 with *#-ena installed, then we're out of luck Jul 31 20:59:21 I'm afraid the dialer doesn't support any of all this, as you got no "normal" keypad during established call, and the DTMF dialpad has no aka "green button" Jul 31 21:01:17 you perhaps could create a contact in addrbook with number "2" and give this contact a "call" while your dialer is busy with the established call and the call waiting Jul 31 21:01:49 Unlikely to work Jul 31 21:01:53 Unfortunately Jul 31 21:01:57 internetishard: just come back reporting, whatever you find out about it, please Jul 31 21:02:01 * SpeedEvil wonders if pnatd is locked out on call Jul 31 21:02:16 don't think so Jul 31 21:03:04 yeah "ATD2" in pnatd would probably also work, if it works at all Jul 31 21:03:07 Hi guys Jul 31 21:03:17 I'm on a trip Jul 31 21:03:28 and want to develop something Jul 31 21:03:54 What in the best way to do so on a n900? Jul 31 21:04:00 What sort of thing? Jul 31 21:04:13 anything Jul 31 21:04:19 You can code in python for example on the device. Jul 31 21:04:29 I just wanna do some coding Jul 31 21:04:30 Or awk, shell, even compile C Jul 31 21:05:36 cool Jul 31 21:06:39 Oppo|n900: I do a lot of python coding in vim on the n900 Jul 31 21:06:58 I never liked vim Jul 31 21:07:11 I use nano Jul 31 21:07:17 but yea Jul 31 21:07:22 I get your point Jul 31 21:33:46 hi, just truncated my sources.list on my n900, any hints what the defaults should be for freemantle? Jul 31 22:09:35 hi. what program invokes this dialog: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking Jul 31 22:09:48 the first dialog when scrolling down with the mouse Jul 31 22:29:12 nobody? Jul 31 22:29:13 *sigh* Jul 31 22:29:19 maybe ps helps then... Jul 31 22:33:12 qknight_: it's rather that about nobody is around atm Jul 31 22:34:15 merlin1991: yes, probably right considering it's monday morning ... Jul 31 22:34:15 ;-) Jul 31 22:35:49 no 'ps' does not help Jul 31 22:36:00 the dialog seems to be coming from an already running application Jul 31 22:36:09 my bet would be hildon-home Jul 31 22:36:22 but I have nfc Jul 31 22:40:12 merlin1991: hildon-home was not bad, but it seems to be /usr/bin/hildon-status-menu Jul 31 22:40:25 at least when i kill the task on the shell, the gui disappears Jul 31 22:41:06 enough for today Jul 31 22:41:07 good night Jul 31 22:41:10 and thanks a lot Jul 31 22:43:13 hello again! Jul 31 22:43:20 just playing with asui on an n810. Jul 31 22:43:22 excellent stuff.. Jul 31 22:43:31 how do I remove the icons for bluetooth, wifi and the battery? Jul 31 22:43:36 since asui replaces all of those!! Jul 31 22:46:46 qknight_: afail the menu gets originally started by ke_recv Jul 31 22:49:07 DocScrutinizer: can i add another entry into this list? Jul 31 22:49:39 I don't know, but probably not Jul 31 22:50:07 it's for sure hardcoded in a binary. Dunno if the source is FOSS Jul 31 22:50:49 what other entry could be useful there? Jul 31 22:50:55 DocScrutinizer: then maybe i could write my own dialog? Jul 31 22:51:02 DocScrutinizer: and call the other if the user wishes? Jul 31 22:51:08 sure Jul 31 22:51:21 interesting Jul 31 22:52:23 DocScrutinizer: select iso image to boot from would be a nice addition Jul 31 22:52:44 DocScrutinizer: i've just experimented with my n900 and i'm now able to boot grml64 from the n900 device Jul 31 22:52:50 via usb attached to my desktop comuter Jul 31 22:52:52 haha, that would mean you need a way to access that iso image from NOLO Jul 31 22:53:27 NOLO? Jul 31 22:53:37 NOkia bootLOader Jul 31 22:54:05 DocScrutinizer: no i set a boot image on the n900 device and my other computer boots from the n900 Jul 31 22:54:13 aaah Jul 31 22:54:21 http://lastlog.de/wiki/index.php/IdeenEcke#usb.2Fbt_client_mode_links Jul 31 22:54:50 well, that means you want to export alternative partitions for the mass storage mode then? Jul 31 22:55:04 exactly Jul 31 22:55:15 via the gui Jul 31 22:55:17 or (a) gui Jul 31 22:55:24 I thought you want to boot N900 from an ISO image ;-P Jul 31 22:55:26 but it would be nice to alter what is there Jul 31 22:56:12 btw I got a process /usr/bin/hildon-status-menu even during normal charge Jul 31 22:57:05 I'm not completely convinced this process is the one showing the USB mode selector menu - but I haven't investigated at all yet Jul 31 22:57:38 DocScrutinizer: if you have an idea let me know. i'll be reading it tomorrow Jul 31 22:57:43 DocScrutinizer: thanks for all your input Jul 31 22:57:53 \me is now gone ... hopefully Jul 31 22:57:57 possibly a dbus-monitor --system during plugin of USB would help to shed some light on the whole process Jul 31 22:58:10 gnite Jul 31 23:00:58 qknight_: check osso-usb-mass-storage-enable.sh Jul 31 23:01:13 you probably could link in a selector dialog there Jul 31 23:08:57 hum? Jul 31 23:09:49 qknight_: /usr/sbin/ke-recv monitors events in /sys and on kernel at large (here: attached USB cable) and calls the menu (not sure which binary) and then obviously executes /usr/sbin/osso-usb-mass-storage-enable.sh Jul 31 23:10:01 chem|st: muh¿ Jul 31 23:10:08 ;-D Jul 31 23:10:47 s/o pinged me days ago... Jul 31 23:11:00 qknight_: all without warranty for correctness Jul 31 23:11:02 guess it was you Jul 31 23:12:02 chem|st: aah, was just asking if you want to do another few bans on tmo. Except for un-abill-uk it seems all got already sent to \b\ or elsewhere to troll there Jul 31 23:12:41 s/o else is doing that for now as ppl started to hunt me again Jul 31 23:13:03 chem|st: AIUI you can see deleted posts, so you may find http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75343 thread amusing Jul 31 23:15:17 our arab terrorist who breaks USB spare parts out of his dad's phone to glue(1) them to N900 finally gone mental on his trolling nature ;-P Jul 31 23:16:14 "Your just f.ing mental "^^ Jul 31 23:16:48 sjgadsby is cleaning the place hu?! Jul 31 23:17:02 hehe, pretty rapidly even Jul 31 23:17:50 just un-abill of course didn't leave after his melodramatic "goodbye" Jul 31 23:18:59 this guy is resistent against all sorts of bashing, blaming, temporary bands and other frustrating stuff, he simply keeps on flooding tmo ;-D Jul 31 23:19:17 s/bands/bans/. Jul 31 23:19:59 ""your not god you know"" ;-P Jul 31 23:23:00 ""nigga they did it again, delete my post. Gonna call my lawyer"" - what a donut Jul 31 23:25:18 seriously tmo is the only forum so far where trolls come up like "I am a troll you **** BEEP *** - ban me ban me BAN ME!!!" Jul 31 23:25:57 no idea if that's the lowest class or the top of trolling Jul 31 23:27:04 Funky. Jul 31 23:27:22 seems the inverted the trolling paradigm, see how fast you can get banned, rather than trying to mess up as long as possible without getting banned Jul 31 23:27:26 I have got the media player playing an audio file. Jul 31 23:27:30 they* Jul 31 23:27:38 Without showing its window in the task manager Jul 31 23:27:40 SpeedEvil: heh :-D Jul 31 23:27:57 I think I killed the window at just the right moment Jul 31 23:28:26 well mafw will happily continue even when you kill frontend - AIUI Jul 31 23:29:14 afaik it's (the pipe) not even a child process of frontend, so it won't really notice when you kill -9 it Jul 31 23:29:53 Naah - from the UI Jul 31 23:29:58 Not doing anything wierd. Jul 31 23:30:30 you can have multiple frontends all in sync regarding the state of mafw backend, and depending on frontend implementation it probably won't stop playback when you close any of those frontends Jul 31 23:30:41 SpeedEvil: sure Jul 31 23:30:47 got it Jul 31 23:31:17 just saying frontend probably missed to send a "stop playback" dbus msg on dieing Jul 31 23:31:20 this is all going horribly wrong Jul 31 23:31:53 cant use liboauth because it depends on openssl with conflicts with gpl \o/ Jul 31 23:31:58 which* Jul 31 23:32:09 so i cant release it Jul 31 23:32:15 fantubbytastic Jul 31 23:33:08 openssl conflicts with gpl? Jul 31 23:33:16 err Jul 31 23:35:00 http://qdb.us/306481 :) Jul 31 23:36:04 DocScrutinizer: thats what ./configure is telling me Jul 31 23:36:26 SpeedEvil: heh Jul 31 23:36:47 either way i lost that other vm Jul 31 23:36:56 and i cant remember what i did now :( Jul 31 23:38:56 fed up Jul 31 23:57:26 qknight_: see Jul 31 23:57:30 # FIXME: these should come from startup scripts Jul 31 23:57:31 export MMC_MOUNTPOINT='/media/mmc1' Jul 31 23:57:33 export INTERNAL_MMC_MOUNTPOINT='/home/user/MyDocs' Jul 31 23:57:49 in /etc/init.d/ke-recv Aug 01 00:31:47 qknight_: I haven't checked how and when these env vars are passed to g_file_storage.ko, but I guess it's the best point to implement your alternative image selector thingie, just make sure the vars are evaluated *after* you redefine them, if nothing else helps then by rmmod/modprobe g_file_storage.ko after setting them to new value Aug 01 00:44:49 good morning Aug 01 01:08:22 qknight_: forget my prev notes about env vars Aug 01 01:08:26 qknight_: Aug 01 01:08:49 modprobe -r g_file_storage Aug 01 01:08:51 sleep 1 Aug 01 01:08:52 modprobe g_file_storage stall=0 luns=2 ro=0 removable Aug 01 01:08:54 echo /dev/mmcblk0 > /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/gadget/gadget-lun0/file Aug 01 01:08:55 echo /dev/mmcblk1 > /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/gadget/gadget-lun1/file Aug 01 01:09:13 (courtesy robbiethe1st Aug 01 01:09:44 Hmm Aug 01 01:10:06 * SpeedEvil needs to work out why his n900 doesn't work with his printer. Aug 01 01:10:53 I suspect I need a small vfat fs Aug 01 01:10:53 IF? Aug 01 01:11:12 USB Aug 01 01:11:14 mass storage Aug 01 01:11:14 duh, mass storage Aug 01 01:11:59 I bought a printer cheap - half off - but it was an expensive one - I wasn't sure it had linux drivers. Aug 01 01:12:13 But knew I could print and scan to a memory card. Aug 01 01:12:26 Ink is cheap though. Aug 01 01:13:01 mhm Aug 01 01:15:57 qknight_: ouch Aug 01 01:16:02 tail -n 11 /usr/sbin/osso-usb-mass-storage-enable.sh Aug 01 01:18:35 I should really try to get the linux drivers setup properly - but slackware is annoying. Aug 01 01:22:50 Is anybody familiar with Polar Mobile's SMART Platform? Aug 01 01:32:36 I tried to install NITDroid on my N900 and something went wrong, now I can't boot the phone on either of the OS'es - the multiboot screen shows two blank options, none of them work (pressing 0 goes to the loading screen but it hangs there forever) Aug 01 01:33:10 I'm trying to re-flash it now, but the flasher isnt working Aug 01 01:33:13 let me pastebin the output Aug 01 01:36:24 http://pastebin.com/H0GR6ekP Aug 01 01:41:34 damn, I wish this was a SD card so I could do it from the PC :| Aug 01 01:42:21 Btw, does anyone know if Alien Dalvik is real? Aug 01 01:43:23 Seems more like a concept demo by a company looking for funding than an actual product, and they don't appear to be selling or offering the product anywhere, which is really strange if it actually works. Aug 01 01:43:34 Or perhaps I haven't looked closely enough. Aug 01 01:43:57 (and yes, I am aware of that demo video on Youtube but it could be faked in a number of ways) Aug 01 01:46:45 Who's seen the last Harry Potter? Aug 01 01:47:22 not i Aug 01 01:49:24 GeneralAntilles: So, is there a Nokia product placement there or what? Aug 01 01:49:47 Tronic, no, not topic-relevant at all. Aug 01 01:50:06 But I saw it last night and I really wish they had gotten some input from Peter Jackson for the movies. Aug 01 01:50:19 Well, haven't seen almost any Harry Potter movies nor read any of the books but I went to see Bad Teacher today. Aug 01 01:51:27 Yeah, imitating Peter Jackson would definitely be better than imitating George Lucas. Aug 01 01:51:49 Who is directing those Harry Potter films anyway? Aug 01 01:52:38 I think alien dalvik is/was a "buy this company" attempt Aug 01 02:01:23 So it would seem as the only app they ever demoed (in several occassions) was that Photoshop app. Aug 01 02:01:36 + some icons of other apps but not the apps itself. Aug 01 02:04:01 Tronic, no idea. Aug 01 02:04:08 Nobody who seems to want to make a big name for themselves. Aug 01 02:05:20 what can cause the flashing process to fail after "Booting device into flash mode."? Aug 01 02:05:50 Seta00: please read Aug 01 02:05:53 ~flash Aug 01 02:05:54 somebody said maemo-flashing was http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Aug 01 02:06:05 the *complete* page Aug 01 02:06:21 * Seta00 reads the *complete* page for the fifth time Aug 01 02:07:01 then honestly you need to read Aug 01 02:07:04 ~question Aug 01 02:07:05 rumour has it, question is If you have a question and want people to give useful answers, make sure you have read this first: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Aug 01 02:08:27 I posted the commented output of flasher and I'm more than happy to provide any additional information you may need Aug 01 02:08:50 I'm following the recommended steps on that page, I tried the recommended process on the flasher README Aug 01 02:08:54 it all ends in the same result Aug 01 02:11:43 Seta00: reboot your PC, make sure you got no conflicting modules loading Aug 01 02:12:05 I did that right before trying to flash it Aug 01 02:12:37 I've got cdc{,_phonet} blacklisted Aug 01 02:12:47 what's in syslog? Aug 01 02:14:37 sec Aug 01 02:15:12 DocScrutinizer, http://pastebin.com/2t5jzMce Aug 01 02:17:13 lsmod? Aug 01 02:17:48 http://pastebin.com/9cdTZZRu Aug 01 02:18:24 I dont even know if I send this phone to nokia, I won it during a software convention so I dont have any receipts :| Aug 01 02:20:55 I'm frowning at snd_usb_audio,snd_usbmidi_lib Aug 01 02:21:09 I don't think they'd take the device Aug 01 02:22:01 Oddly I've flashed N900 fine from a PC that with the same settings accesses "PC Suite mode" fine Aug 01 02:22:44 I suggest you detach all USB devices (unless absolutely needed), then reboot, and immediately start flasher and plug in N900, then paste the syslog beginning some lines prior to starting flasher Aug 01 02:23:35 aslo what distro is that? there seem to be known unknown issues with a few of them Aug 01 02:23:44 DocScrutinizer, all USB devices I have connected are the keyboard and the mouse Aug 01 02:23:47 this is Fedora 15 Aug 01 02:24:18 hmm, not one of the distros notorious to act up on flashing Aug 01 02:24:35 mompl Aug 01 02:28:19 when it says "Booting the device into flashing mode" the USB symbol disappears and the phone reboots Aug 01 02:28:37 if I choose one of the blank options on the multiboot screen it reboots Aug 01 02:28:49 if I press 0 it reboots Aug 01 02:29:16 guess I'm gonna try to talk with nokia tomorrow Aug 01 02:29:41 although I've heard their support here is not the best hehe Aug 01 02:29:49 DocScrutinizer, thanks for the help Aug 01 02:30:16 http://www.absolutelytech.com/2010/04/18/solved-unable-to-enumerate-usb-device-disabling-ehci_hcd/ Aug 01 02:31:32 Seta00: the phone exiting USB symbol mode aka flashing-mode usually means yiur battery is too weak Aug 01 02:32:33 DocScrutinizer, yeah, I thought that was the cause when I first tried a few days ago, but I've charged it using a universal charger yesterday Aug 01 02:33:04 I can't know for sure if that thing really charged it, though Aug 01 02:33:18 * Seta00 wishes he had a multimeter now Aug 01 02:33:52 Seta00: look, phone will stay in flashing mode (NOKIA + USBsymbol) even when I use a random wallwart charger Aug 01 02:36:00 so unless your PC stops delivering VBUS on USB, or the communication gets messed up by either an interfering driver or broken USB EHCI_et_al driver, the phone has to stay in flashing mode. defect cable, poor USB port on PC, and most frequently driver problems on PC side are what you need to sort out Aug 01 02:37:19 check the link I gave above Aug 01 02:40:54 I did Aug 01 02:41:11 that "file" is a directory Aug 01 02:43:30 which "file"? Aug 01 02:43:39 same resut Aug 01 02:43:41 result* Aug 01 02:44:31 best try another PC, preferrably with another distro of linux Aug 01 02:45:05 eek Aug 01 02:45:15 some PCs refuse to work, some distros show unclear issues Aug 01 02:45:26 I could try on the uni lab Aug 01 02:45:39 but I'll try to contact nokia anyway Aug 01 02:45:46 and the guy who gave me the phone :P Aug 01 02:47:00 well, what shall they do? Aug 01 02:47:49 point you to a list of certified PC + Linux distro that are known to work for flashing? Aug 01 02:48:50 Seta00: please check if your device stays in flashing mode when yu hook up to Nokia wallcharger while holding 'u' Aug 01 02:51:40 DocScrutinizer, I cant use my nokia wallcharger Aug 01 02:51:54 the plug is from outer space Aug 01 02:51:57 :P Aug 01 02:52:18 no, fix it for me? Aug 01 02:52:32 at least that's what I would expect if I had bought it Aug 01 02:52:38 heh Aug 01 02:53:51 sorry then, I dont know how I can help when plug is from outer space Aug 01 02:55:31 you can use any usb charger to check if N900 acts 'normal' wrt staying in flashing mode Aug 01 02:57:23 DocScrutinizer, yes, it does Aug 01 02:57:28 just like it does on the PC **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Aug 01 02:59:57 2011