**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Sep 16 02:59:56 2011 Sep 16 06:15:37 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/16/chumby_nettv_hack/ <-- hmm Sep 16 06:55:44 hello. what IDE and SDK for pyside ? Sep 16 07:06:55 What is wrong with the autobuilder? It's building gcc instead of the cod ei uploaded https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/cacheme_0.8.8-1/ Sep 16 10:46:36 k Sep 16 12:26:11 hi, i'm trying to get some help updating maemo on my newly arrived (but previously used) n900 to the latest version. is this a good place to ask for help? Sep 16 12:26:41 it is probably the only place to ask for unofficial live support ;) Sep 16 12:27:07 :) Sep 16 12:27:27 so which part do you need help with? Sep 16 12:28:06 so, i see the phone is currently on v 20.2010.36-2, what's the newest stable release? (the one you'd want to keep everything important working) Sep 16 12:29:58 20.2010.36-2 is the latest official release from nokia themselves. There's no newer firmwares offically from them. Though if you want to be a little more updated (and going through unofficial channels), there's CSSU. Its not always stable (but there are times it is) and it has bugfixes that nokia probably were supposed to provide but never did Sep 16 12:31:22 is there a way to prevent installing these non-stable builds of CSSU? Sep 16 12:31:28 no Sep 16 12:31:43 i.e. only picking those which are stable? Sep 16 12:32:10 so there is not something like a rating system for these builds? Sep 16 12:32:10 what may work in one case may not work in other, so its all really just a matter of contributing in finding bugs and getting the bugs squished Sep 16 12:32:41 not really, because people are entitled to have their opinions which are usually lopsided views :) Sep 16 12:33:19 and the updates comes in version updates.. each version they release fixes numerous things.. so you can't upgrade certain bits and pieces and forget others that easily Sep 16 12:34:16 i'm happy to do contribute to finding and reporting bugs. i cannot live with a device which has basic functionality (telephony, sms, wireless lan) broken for more than a few hours at most, though Sep 16 12:34:50 this is why having current backups and/or spare N900 handy :) Sep 16 12:35:08 hah, i could hardly afford this one Sep 16 12:35:10 ugh.. s/handy/useful for such situations/ Sep 16 12:35:33 well current backups would be the choice there then :) use something like robbiethe1st's backupmenu Sep 16 12:35:35 i definately will want to have backups though Sep 16 12:35:46 and current ones ontop :) Sep 16 12:36:24 you don't want old backups that you restore and you realise those old backups don't have the newer data you have inputted prior to creating that backup Sep 16 12:37:50 Yup; keep nice sets of backups, backup before you do something risky, and then rollback if it doesn't work Sep 16 12:38:29 so what do i backup, emmc, fiasco or both? Sep 16 12:38:55 rootfs + /home|/opt.. but backupmenu does that :) Sep 16 12:39:28 okay, and to install backupmenu i do... what exactly? add an apt source? Sep 16 12:39:44 i've got a debian / sysadmin background ;) Sep 16 12:39:48 yes.. enabling extras-devel iirc Sep 16 12:40:01 Yup, it's in extras-devel. Sep 16 12:40:27 you might want to backup your current setup now with osso-backup in case backupmenu doesn't work (it shouldn't but its always good to have a backup made) Sep 16 12:40:50 and once you have installed backupmenu successfully, backup properly using backupmenu Sep 16 12:41:05 well i have a blank phone, isn't it as easy as restoring the entire software on it? Sep 16 12:41:23 ...when something goes wrong Sep 16 12:42:07 technically no, you can go flash fiasco alone but if you flashed eMMC, you will erase your contacts, SMS history, etc Sep 16 12:42:26 there are none Sep 16 12:42:47 it's a blank installation, like a new phone Sep 16 12:42:54 o.O Sep 16 12:43:04 heh well in that case I guess you don't have much to lose Sep 16 12:43:27 hello guys Sep 16 12:43:45 does anyone have psx4m working with opengl? Sep 16 12:43:54 does anyone *has* Sep 16 12:43:58 have Sep 16 12:43:59 :) Sep 16 12:44:24 the backups won't be big with backupmenu for your case anyway, unlike those of us who use N900 more will generally have bigger backup files.. and tinkerers like me has huge ones :).. though if you used backupmenu you would save yourself some bandwidth with downloading of data anyway and waiting around Sep 16 12:44:53 psycho_oreos: so my first step of working with this phone should be to install backupmenu, which is done by somehow adding 'extras-devel' to /etc/apt/sources.list ? Sep 16 12:45:07 i guess i need to setup a wireless connection first Sep 16 12:45:26 tomreyn, the best way (well the maemo way) is to really go through using hildon application manager (HAM) Sep 16 12:45:46 which can be accessed thorugh gui, i assume? Sep 16 12:45:47 but if you decide to use CLI method, that's also ok as well Sep 16 12:45:49 yes Sep 16 12:46:04 I think its called `App Manager' Sep 16 12:46:51 though really adding extras-devel to `App Manager' will probably hog the device like hell for the next maybe 5-10 minutes after having downloaded the repository file listing Sep 16 12:47:05 i have a localized (german) variant, there is 'program manager' Sep 16 12:47:51 ahh I guess that would be it :) I am using global firmware with English UK as language base and English AU as locality Sep 16 12:48:55 yes looks like it's the right application. i'm setting up wireless now. Sep 16 12:49:03 in fact `program manager' would be a more appropriate word than `app manager' :) Sep 16 12:52:52 so i have four 'catalogs' (which seem to be APT sources): nokia applications, nokia system software updates, OVI, maemo.org. do i edit one of these or add a new one? Sep 16 12:53:12 psycho_oreos: is there a how-to on this somewhere so i don't waste your precious time? Sep 16 12:53:31 i was looking for a getting started guide but i guess i couldn't find anything similar. Sep 16 12:54:03 tomreyn, yes you have to add a new one Sep 16 12:54:15 err.. lemme go find that wiki link Sep 16 12:55:07 tomreyn, http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-devel#How_to_activate_Extras-devel Sep 16 12:56:21 also, you should have a read of the information printed on top of that wiki page in regards to extras-devel. Not that I guess would affect you that greatly but I still suggest that you read it and take note should issues arise. Sep 16 12:57:06 yes, i just read that i should backup before adding this repository to be able to add a backup software. Sep 16 12:57:09 ;-) Sep 16 12:57:34 but yes, you said i can use the one already there for a first step. Sep 16 12:57:43 well its not just that, there's stuff like it may drain power excessively, cause bootloops, etc, etc, etc Sep 16 12:58:25 err no, I don't think you can convert that extras from the list of four repositories to be extras-devel.. I thought that wasn't allowed Sep 16 12:58:34 can i use apt preferences to prevent installing updated but problematic software versions from there? Sep 16 12:59:35 uhh I think you can.. there were devs talking about using PIN for instance or `pinning' as they refer the subject as Sep 16 12:59:56 right, apt pinning Sep 16 13:01:07 for me I use the old fashioned method of holding via dpkg Sep 16 13:01:37 also aptitude (not available with the device by default) can also hold packages, etc.. too bad the ncurses UI doesn't work Sep 16 13:04:49 curses dosn't work in general? Sep 16 13:04:56 *ncurses Sep 16 13:05:41 i was also told about 'power kernel' would be a good idea to install. but i guess that's a step after i did the backup. Sep 16 13:05:54 not sure but I doubt it.. not that I'm familiar with the variations of CLI based programs with menu driven interfaces. mc for instance does work, so does htop Sep 16 13:06:19 i see Sep 16 13:07:34 well making the backup with backupmenu won't affect installation of power-kernel as the actual kernel sits in an area where its not accessible for backupmenu. Though with osso-backup, it'll prompt you to install it (if you have the correct repositories enabled prior to backup and already have power-kernel installed prior to backup). Sep 16 13:08:08 power kernel adds lots more features but its not completely stable and has its own issues Sep 16 13:23:01 thanks for your help psycho_oreos Sep 16 13:23:10 i forgot to say that :) Sep 16 13:23:48 tomreyn, heh nw.. too bad its not like tmo threads where I get `thank' tags tallied up ;) Sep 16 13:24:02 * psycho_oreos denotes that as not a serious concern when winking :p Sep 16 13:25:11 :) Sep 16 13:33:33 looks like i'm locked into a vicious circle here: i want to create the apt preferences file (to apt pin extras-devel), so, as I read, I need to install 'getroot' from the 'extras' repository (which is already installed and active). But I can't seem to find a package named 'getroot'. nad if i could, i would not be able to install it (on the terminal) since that would require root permissions. Sep 16 13:34:07 you meant rootsh or gainroot Sep 16 13:34:31 oops s/getroot/gainroot/, this might be why Sep 16 13:34:58 rootsh I believe is in extras repository, gainroot may also be available from within the same repository (extras) but you can alleviate all that by temporarily (or permanently if you wish to do so) enable R&D mode Sep 16 13:36:08 if only i knew how ;) Sep 16 13:36:25 i found the rootsh package and will install that now Sep 16 13:37:06 http://wiki.maemo.org/R&D_mode <-- R&D mode Sep 16 14:01:15 is anyone using zhaan? I am finding is is crashing randomly and wondered if I was the only one Sep 16 14:10:36 what happened to lcuk???? Sep 16 14:11:05 he passed away Sep 16 14:11:26 godmachine-x6, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1088957 Sep 16 14:12:39 psycho_oreos:: hate to jump in here and just ask questions. but i was trying to figure out what happened to him.. he didn't seem like anything was wrong that i was aware of! Sep 16 14:14:20 godmachine-x6, well it seems like mece is right on the ball there Sep 16 14:15:26 ok sorry for asking then Sep 16 14:15:37 sorry for everyones loss Sep 16 16:08:01 hi guys is there a way to configure N900 only to receive calls coming from numbers saved on the phonebook ? Sep 16 16:09:47 Guest3596: I think pycallblocker should work Sep 16 16:10:18 hiemanshu thanks for the tip Sep 16 16:10:28 i'll check it out Sep 16 16:56:50 psycho_oreos, DocScrutinizer51 (and perhaps someone else who helped me the other day): thank you for the hints... I've now fixed my headset: http://shishworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/nokia-n900-headset-white-m-lead-broken.html Sep 16 17:09:43 hiemanshu that app does not support the phonebook :( Sep 16 17:17:26 RokSteady: :) Sep 16 17:41:38 is the N810 still receiving support from the community? Sep 16 17:50:09 gmathisz: no Sep 16 17:50:22 gmathisz: Nokia basically prevented community from maintaining N8x0 Sep 16 17:50:39 it's like 75% closed source Sep 16 17:51:08 I thought the big problem was the power management Sep 16 17:51:18 poky worked otherwise rather well Sep 16 18:23:07 thank you, luke-jr Sep 16 18:56:52 so I switched to an android phone, because maemo has only 1-sim devices.. and android os seems to be a piece of shit Sep 16 18:57:16 has maemo been ported to any dual sim devices? Sep 16 18:58:59 No. Sep 16 18:59:11 Maemo has inherent large chunks of non-free binary. Sep 16 18:59:19 So you can't port it. (legally) Sep 16 19:00:15 SpeedEvil: there was an effort to replace all those black boxes. iirc, the only driver not replaced was bluetooth (and the drivers probably need to be replaced anyway if the hardware differs) Sep 16 19:00:30 It's not that simple. Sep 16 19:00:41 Yes, you can replace the whole lot. Sep 16 19:00:44 That's 'simple' Sep 16 19:00:56 You can't replace - say - BME Sep 16 19:01:11 As it talks to MCE, and a whole heap of other stuff over closed interfaces Sep 16 19:01:20 So what you end up isn't really maemo. Sep 16 19:01:22 I though people were trying to reverse it Sep 16 19:01:35 The effort sort-of-petered-out. Sep 16 19:01:39 :( Sep 16 19:02:01 Maemo is basically ideally designed to frustrate replacement of the system components. Sep 16 19:02:14 well if the base would remain the same(with closed swaped out for something semi-compatbile open) and the UX is left I'd still consider it maemo Sep 16 19:02:33 There are multiple closed apps and daemons, all of which talk to each other over closed interfaces. Sep 16 19:02:34 Mamona.. that's what it was called Sep 16 19:02:55 So you can't rip out one, and have the others work Sep 16 19:03:00 yeah Sep 16 19:03:03 I can understand that Sep 16 19:03:09 you'de basically have to replace all of those Sep 16 19:03:13 You either have to reimplement the closed undocumented communication, or replace them all. Sep 16 19:03:24 And yes, it could run most random maemo apps. Sep 16 19:03:33 But you'd need a new dialer, ... Sep 16 19:04:13 ruskie: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1006716#post1006716 Sep 16 19:07:44 DocScrutinizer, so in other words... bash head against wall until your brain truns to mush Sep 16 19:09:10 I'm not going to do that - doesn't sound like much fun ;-) Sep 16 19:09:16 hehe Sep 16 19:22:57 ruskie: all closed packages in maemo fremantle is in this list: http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages Sep 16 19:33:57 http://imgur.com/gallery/L8gdO Sep 16 20:28:21 wow Sep 16 20:28:24 they fixed my n900 Sep 16 20:29:04 at least that's what it says on carphonewarehouse website Sep 16 20:30:57 usb? Sep 16 20:31:06 yes Sep 16 20:31:12 i'm not sure what i'm going to get back Sep 16 20:31:24 Repair type: Manufacturers Warranty Repair completed on: 16/09/2011 Sep 16 20:32:38 funn Sep 16 20:49:18 moo. Sep 16 20:50:40 jacekowski: In all likelyhood, an N8 ;) Sep 16 20:50:59 ErwinJunge: i've told them to make a note that i will not accept N8 Sep 16 20:51:05 ErwinJunge: or any other phone Sep 16 20:53:07 Hm... I'd be pleasantly surprised if someone actually read that note, but good luck. A tip if it does turn out to be an "upgrade": complain loudly on their facebook page. It has worked for at least 1 person here in the Netherlands. Sep 16 20:53:31 They sent him an N8 no less than 4 times before finally caving and sending him an N900. Sep 16 21:05:28 N8 is great hardware Sep 16 21:05:32 I hope somebody hack it to put Meego on it Sep 16 21:05:36 or something else Sep 16 21:09:51 I'm getting a tattoo of 'N900 Fo Life' Sep 16 21:11:27 N8 doesn't meet MeeGo's minimum CPU requirements :-) Sep 16 21:11:38 and it has no fmtx Sep 16 21:20:40 n9 is sweet Sep 16 21:21:16 I guess it'd be cool, but I want more of a smartphone and less of a featurephone thing :) Sep 16 21:21:41 hackhackphone :) Sep 16 21:22:02 but n9 is quite hackable Sep 16 21:22:23 but is it smart.. hm Sep 16 21:22:42 it has smart features Sep 16 21:23:04 * NIN101 whispers: aegis Sep 16 21:23:07 i probably lack perspective :) Sep 16 21:23:46 smart is safe Sep 16 21:25:02 well... safe IS smart Sep 16 21:26:10 Sc0rpius: no way to get meego on N8 aiui Sep 16 21:27:57 Ans5i: define "safe" (I admit I've stolen this stanza from a guy called djszapi ;-D) Sep 16 21:30:01 Ans5i: if you're referring to aegis regarding this "safe" thing, let me tell you a secret: aegis isn't about safety, at least not about what *you* would consider safety Sep 16 21:30:29 DocScrutinizer... let's see. if i accidentally get robbed, i don't really want my data to end up to wrong place. Sep 16 21:31:02 so you think aegis is helping on that? hahahaha *cough* sorry Sep 16 21:31:09 afaik there is secure filesystem Sep 16 21:31:49 and how's that helping on your device getting stolen and somebody reading out this secure filesystem same way you do? Sep 16 21:32:19 password, i would guess :) Sep 16 21:32:39 btw cryptofs is nothing we need aegis for, it's been around for eons Sep 16 21:33:26 Ans5i: you're evidently a victim of MSSF PR BS Sep 16 21:33:39 i think it was called aegisfs Sep 16 21:33:40 Smart once upon a time meant to me being able to get stuff done :) Sep 16 21:33:47 or more generally TC PR Sep 16 21:34:11 Ans5i: so what? Sep 16 21:34:25 Ans5i: if I call myself jesus, will you pray to me? Sep 16 21:34:40 and it has no fmtx Sep 16 21:34:42 N8? it does Sep 16 21:34:49 well, i haven't use cryptofs Sep 16 21:35:02 they replaced "FM Transmitter" with "Play via Radio" Sep 16 21:35:08 which I found very confusing Sep 16 21:35:19 Ans5i: see: Sep 16 21:35:22 ~aegis Sep 16 21:35:22 aegis is, like, http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif Sep 16 21:35:51 "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment." Sep 16 21:36:15 not about your safety, about the safety of third party IP Sep 16 21:36:19 and like, now it seems like there'd be about same amount of pain or more to hack N9 as to hack random android handset into usability, with aegis and the dumbing down of the interfaces :) Oh and lack of keyboard... seems like a general trend :( Oh well, Samsung Note might be tolerable, with that extra screen real estate they might be able to make a decently sized vkb, and maybe also fit some context about what you're typing onscreen at the same itme.. Sep 16 21:37:02 DocScrutinizer, not bad thing considering all the spy/malware. Sep 16 21:37:13 hahaha Sep 16 21:38:07 yeah sure, you get the spy/malware from ovistore, and it will use aegis to make sure no community written virus checker interferes with whatever it likes to do Sep 16 21:38:14 Most of the malware I see on people's computers these days come from one of the top-20 technology companies :) Sep 16 21:38:44 Sony comes to mind Sep 16 21:38:59 let me paste too. "AegisFS is a FUSE-based cryptographic file system which implements virtual directories implemented as protected stores. This enables transparent integrity and confidentiality protection of ordinary files without the needing to use proprietary API" Sep 16 21:40:15 That's a cool idea, but do they really need to lock down everything else just to have that? If so, it's too big of a cost I think Sep 16 21:41:32 Yeah and if I want to load a kernel module, so I can connect to a vpn, so I can access my email, there's theoretically a chance that the kernel module is tainted and starts accessing the internals of the crypto subsystem and compromises it, I guess =/ Sep 16 21:41:55 so far creator has created tokens automatically for those very simple apps that i've made. Sep 16 21:42:06 Ans5i: nice. And now google for cryptofs please Sep 16 21:42:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zx8qdVs7Ug http://nin101.uni.cx/N900/crypto/encrypted_home/ Sep 16 21:43:20 https://gitorious.org/maemo5-encrypted-home/maemo5-encrypted-home Sep 16 21:43:23 tomreyn: thanks :-) Sep 16 21:44:01 ust passing on what NIN101 told me earlier today ;) Sep 16 21:44:09 *i'm just Sep 16 21:45:25 is that an emergency call button? Sep 16 21:45:34 oh, skip, nevermind Sep 16 21:45:44 isn't it incredible how you can sell arbitrary BS to users, simply by adding a few old well known features and labeling them same way as the rest of your crap? Sep 16 21:46:37 Now, a really cool feature would be message encryption that didn't mysteriously fail as soon as some random dudes wants it to fail Sep 16 21:46:41 * ShadowJK looks at RIM Sep 16 21:47:55 Sep 16 21:47:55 echo "/what/me/worry" > /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern Sep 16 21:47:57 riight... Sep 16 21:48:25 ""WinP7-charger: A software that takes care about your phone's battery and manages to get the longest possible operation time from it" - HEY COOL SHIT! let's go for WinP7, it has a special software designed to give *AWESOME* standby time. Probably even helps when your device gets stolen ;-P Sep 16 21:48:41 So if we could get a tun/tap module loaded we could run arbitrary traffic and instant messengers over the TOR network, our data encrypted over the internet until it emerges from some random exitnode, but oh wait aegis says NO :P Sep 16 21:48:48 cryptofs seems to be gpl and aegis lgpl Sep 16 21:48:59 HOORAY!!!! Sep 16 21:49:20 * MohammadAG starts backporting aegis to the N900 Sep 16 21:49:41 DocScrutinizer, fact is it works when people dont know these features exist. Symbian and Apple both prove this perfectly Sep 16 21:49:41 users need protection from bash Sep 16 21:49:45 * DocScrutinizer shoots MohammadAG Sep 16 21:50:17 backport finished, let's deploy it in the CSSU Sep 16 21:50:22 Symbian has had a boatload of features for nearly a decade that other smartphones are recently adding but that nokia never sold well, and Apple managed to palm off features that've existed forever by relabelling and advertising that theyre there Sep 16 21:50:56 DocScrutinizer, my DevN900's bme wanted to shutdown at 45% battery remaining the other day. Shutdown bme, start my own battery management software. I recovered that last 40% extra runtime! Genuinely, not like those fake Symbian/android/WP7 apps. This is of course also not possible on N9 with aegis in place :P Sep 16 21:51:20 agreed Sep 16 21:51:20 USB OTG is not interesting to users Sep 16 21:51:20 if apple did it'd be named something fancy Sep 16 21:51:52 USB² or perhaps U² Sep 16 21:51:55 :) Sep 16 21:52:47 hey, on maemo we see same now: aegisfs ;-P Sep 16 21:53:41 so aegis is a good thing - it's giving safety back to user - see, there's aegisfs - Sep 16 21:53:51 ShadowJK, you can stop bme on the N9 Sep 16 21:54:11 you just can't start any sane power management software Sep 16 21:54:12 But then you lose battery state tracking and safe shutdown? :-) Sep 16 21:54:13 lol Sep 16 21:54:19 right Sep 16 21:54:36 just wondering Sep 16 21:54:45 on a brighter subject, I really like my touchpad <3 Sep 16 21:54:45 is the TPM chip inside the SoC or on the board somewhere? Sep 16 21:55:00 I'm interested in knowing what would happen if someone f's that chip Sep 16 21:55:25 you can test that on qemu Sep 16 21:55:28 it's a soc feature I believe Sep 16 21:56:45 You know I actually predicted that bme would freak out at about 40-50% and go from showing 40% remaining to showing 0% remaining, thanks to data gathered by SpeedEvil's awesome ohm "battery profiling" script :-) Sep 16 21:56:49 they basically use both the ARM stuff and a BB5. Sep 16 21:57:22 ShadowJK: bad battery? Sep 16 21:57:43 bme should like adjust it's new 0 to be at the old 40%, or yell at me to get a new battery (but oh wait, can't do that with N9 either) Sep 16 21:58:05 ShadowJK, guesstimate, shutdown when you feel you've lost your battery :p Sep 16 21:58:23 SpeedEvil, it's less than a year old! :) Sep 16 21:58:26 :/ Sep 16 21:58:49 I hate how you have to pry open the N9 Sep 16 21:58:58 and the battery is similar to those on cordless phones Sep 16 21:58:59 more like "destroy" Sep 16 21:59:02 MohammadAG: inside SoC Sep 16 21:59:17 javispedro, nah, I'm guessing it's rubbery Sep 16 22:00:06 I saw photonicinduction on youtube trying to destroy a "body massager" with his hammer. I wonder if that's the same material the N9 is made out of Sep 16 22:00:33 isn't polycarbonate essential plastic-y? Sep 16 22:00:41 yeah Sep 16 22:00:49 It's plastic Sep 16 22:01:04 so why call it polycarbonate? Sep 16 22:01:13 Marketing! Sep 16 22:01:23 it has got electrolytes! Sep 16 22:01:32 because it sounds better than saying plastic, and its a better quality material than your average typical plastic Sep 16 22:01:33 It does have carbon in Sep 16 22:01:43 polycarbonate is a rather special "plastic" Sep 16 22:02:00 Also - poly = polymer - carbonate ad it's a polymer of carboante groups Sep 16 22:02:02 carbonate Sep 16 22:02:10 I'd love a carbon fibre phone Sep 16 22:02:15 Fun fact. Sep 16 22:02:43 Polycarbonate is made from two gasses both of which are chemical warfare agents. Sep 16 22:02:51 it's used e.g for all sorts of vending machines, as it's basically unbreakable and not destroyable by fire. Just gets black and bubbly Sep 16 22:03:43 SpeedEvil, so the N9 won't be sold to arabs in israel? Sep 16 22:03:47 its also used for aircraft windscreens/cockpit bubbles, riot shields, and plenty of other applications due to being really hard to break Sep 16 22:04:10 I hope it takes dents better the N950 then Sep 16 22:04:22 also bullet proof glass is made of layers of silcicondioxide based true glass and layers of polycarbonate, afaik Sep 16 22:04:36 isn't N950 aluminium? Sep 16 22:04:40 nope Sep 16 22:04:45 oh Sep 16 22:05:05 more like plastic Sep 16 22:05:08 N950 is made of scratchium Sep 16 22:05:10 the bad kind Sep 16 22:05:16 the N900's body was better imo Sep 16 22:05:32 it attracts scratches Sep 16 22:05:42 it attracts the floor for me Sep 16 22:05:59 it likes to make new friends too Sep 16 22:06:10 it met concrete tiles and carpet Sep 16 22:06:12 N810 formfactor, get rid of the metal door, make slider mechanism as awesome as on N900 -> awesomeness Sep 16 22:07:06 Oh, the Mugen 2400 back door for N900, it's made out of a plastic that feels more rubbery than the N900 plastic. I quite liked it, because it felt like I had a secure grip of the phone Sep 16 22:07:21 the N950 is slippery Sep 16 22:24:23 plus N950 basically has a terrible hwkbd: 42 key (N900: 38) but not really any better accessibility as key caps are flat on flat, while N900 (and N810) key caps are convex Sep 16 22:26:53 nobody really likes flat top keycaps - they don't allow for "automatic" tactile feedback to center to the middle of the keys Sep 16 22:27:37 My E75 has flat keys too, but there's enough space between the keys that it kinda works Sep 16 22:27:52 and it's not glossy smooth so you don't slip off the keys Sep 16 22:28:09 if there wasn't that small trench between the keys it was virtually impossible to type blindly Sep 16 22:28:23 E75 has "trench" too Sep 16 22:28:37 though it took like 2-3 weeks to adjust to it Sep 16 22:28:45 my M800 eten kbd was like that - unbearable Sep 16 22:30:49 in some ways the E75 keyboard is better than N810, and in some ways better than N900 Sep 16 22:31:35 sometimes in emergencies all I've had left working has been E75, and discovered that typing in iptabels and route commmands with IP addresses in putty on it has been easier than on N900 :P Sep 16 22:32:57 ShadowJK: the vkbd is actually easier Sep 16 22:34:08 I hate waiting for it to appear :P Sep 16 22:34:48 and then the time it takes to correct typos done with vkb kills the remaining time benefit :/ Sep 16 22:35:14 * ShadowJK is somewhat better on the N800 stylus vkbd using thumbs Sep 16 22:35:33 maybe because on N800 the touch layer is so so much closer to the display layer? Sep 16 22:36:51 like I'm aiming for the actual letter, and thumb hits the touch window further up away from the letter than I expected, and ends up in the wrong place? Sep 16 22:38:23 and the exact "offset" between touch and display varies depending on the angle you hold N900 in, which for me varies depending on whether I stand, sit, lay down, etc :/ Sep 16 22:40:50 hmm, the max parallax error I can detect on N900 screen is ~1mm Sep 16 22:41:15 dunno if that could cause noticeable problems with vkbd Sep 16 22:44:16 It's not the parallax per se that messes me up Sep 16 22:45:13 it's more that when I look at hte contents and don't see the surface, I'm fingers hit the screen much earlier than I planned and haven't reached their correct horizontal position yet? Sep 16 22:47:27 in daylight I'm probably better on N900 vkb, in darker ambient I do much better on N800 vkb Sep 16 22:47:28 yeah that may well confuse your motorics Sep 17 00:41:58 * nox- just saw http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2011-September/004501.html Sep 17 00:41:59 :( Sep 17 00:47:34 Gary = lcuk? Sep 17 00:48:28 i only knew him from here... Sep 17 00:48:51 luke-jr: yes. :/ Sep 17 00:49:45 anyone know what happened? :/ Sep 17 00:49:59 Reportedly suicide. Sep 17 00:50:05 :( Sep 17 00:50:15 ouch Sep 17 00:50:25 He always seemed to have fresh ideas. Sep 17 00:50:39 Sometimes ideas aren't good ones. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Sep 17 02:59:57 2011