**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 08 02:59:57 2011 Oct 08 03:06:15 did anyone buy an htc flyer today from best buy $300? Oct 08 03:06:32 HTC? Oct 08 03:06:48 I wonder if ubuntu or a full open source os can be put on there Oct 08 03:07:00 if it can I'm going to make the plunge Oct 08 03:08:06 I mean the main reason I want a device like this is for reading and taking notes with a pen, and this device would do it I'm kind of excited Oct 08 03:10:26 ya I'm sorry talking about non Nokia products on this channel how dare I Oct 08 03:10:28 lol Oct 08 03:11:43 I just don't know any other phones. Oct 08 03:11:50 so I bought N900 Oct 08 03:12:04 well that's pretty sad Oct 08 03:13:10 well Oct 08 03:13:23 let your life simple is good. Oct 08 03:13:35 have more time do more Oct 08 03:13:38 yigal, there's #android (or ##android) Oct 08 03:13:55 psycho_oreos: I don't want android on the htc flyer Oct 08 03:14:18 psycho_oreos: if I buy it, it is because there is a good chance I can set it up like an n800 Oct 08 03:14:23 yigal: then go #htc Oct 08 03:14:30 yigal, its got nothing to do with #maemo Oct 08 03:14:33 that's the bottom line Oct 08 03:15:07 other than the dream of having a full open source OS on a tablet device, I know I generalize too often Oct 08 03:15:11 and no you can't set it up like N800 without somehow working with a hacked kernel + UI framework and design Oct 08 03:15:24 psycho_oreos: of course Oct 08 03:15:42 psycho_oreos: I'm used to working on the Viliv S5, but the flyer is much more attractive Oct 08 03:16:05 psycho_oreos: Meego worked on the Viliv, and Maemo would've been even nicer Oct 08 03:16:41 yigal, again I don't see a correlation with HTC flyer doing in maemo channel. Its offtopic Oct 08 03:18:06 yes, I as I said before I like to generalize and enjoy the idea that others in the Maemo community want something similiar to what I want namely a full open source OS on a tablet device Oct 08 03:18:22 but enjoy, enjoy letting me know that what I've said is offtopic Oct 08 03:18:26 you are so correct Oct 08 03:18:32 enjoy your correntness Oct 08 03:18:37 there's meego channel, its called #meego Oct 08 05:08:16 a while ago i had synaptic installed on my N900 for maemo itself (not talking about the one inside EasyDebian, it handled the install/uninstall/upgrade etc of Maemo programs), then later i had to reflash and for some reason i couldn't get EasyDebian to install and i couldn't install Maemo Synaptic, i assumed it was because of the EasyDebian issue, but now on a fresh reflash, i successfully... Oct 08 05:08:18 ...managed to install EasyDebian, but when i try to install Synaptic for Maemo it won't work, same issue as before, following the chain of depencies leads me to sgml-data which apt-get tells me is unavaiable; any idea how i can get this to work? Oct 08 05:30:31 would adding the repositories EasyDebian use into HAM's catalog work or sgml-data needs to be ported? Oct 08 06:43:09 Woohoo!!! Figured it out! :D Oct 08 06:43:25 I needed to add the SDK repository to get sgml-data Oct 08 06:47:02 brb Oct 08 06:59:18 back Oct 08 07:15:32 MohammadAG: aha. thats right. that was stupid of me. hehhee.. ofc I should have tried that Oct 08 07:22:41 i wish i had a robot that knew exactly how i would think in any given situation and a time machine so i could leave it reinstalling all the programs i want, fixing all the issues that might come up, and instantly hand me my N900 back with everything installed and set just the way i want... Oct 08 07:26:43 its called backupmenu Oct 08 07:35:11 http://i.imgur.com/9OFSh.png what is that widget to the left? the one in the middle I know is the rss Oct 08 07:35:16 psycho_oreos: thanks for the help yesterday btw:) Oct 08 07:36:31 they should write what they use on the screenshot :) Oct 08 07:56:53 if i'm using that technique of running from a copy of rootfs inside home, do i need to install backupmenu on both? Oct 08 07:57:05 (the original and the copy) Oct 08 08:01:42 Morning, al Oct 08 08:01:44 Morning, all Oct 08 08:01:57 Kowalczyk, no worries, I guess you figured out how to get the fake animated equaliser thing? Oct 08 08:04:59 Kowalczyk: I think it's the ovi maps widget Oct 08 08:07:17 TiagoTiago, I don't understand what you mean rootfs inside home as in like a chrooted maemo setup? Oct 08 08:07:54 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=59374 Oct 08 08:08:16 that one (actually the one from Pali a few pages later, but it's mostly the same) Oct 08 08:11:50 crap, i think backupmenu might not be compatible... Oct 08 08:12:54 i tried installing it in the original and it seems it gets in the way of booting from the copy... Oct 08 08:14:35 Kowalczyk, maps widget Oct 08 08:16:33 Is there an echo in here? ;) Oct 08 08:17:40 not that i've noticed Oct 08 08:20:04 great, backupmenu fucked things up... Oct 08 08:21:22 i should've tried it earlier, before i started instaling things... i hope i can figure out how to repair it without having to start from scratch... Oct 08 08:21:23 what happened? Oct 08 08:21:40 the bootmenu won't load anymore after i uninstalled backup menu Oct 08 08:22:12 if you have read that thread, it also depends on bootmenu by fanoush Oct 08 08:22:34 those two aren't compatible? Oct 08 08:23:00 TiagoTiago: you are rebooting with keyboard out? Oct 08 08:23:15 I'd assume it isn't without editing the entries to maybe make sure it does not clash together Oct 08 08:23:25 yep, that is how i can get to the menu to let me boot from the pivotroot or whatever it's called Oct 08 08:30:12 i don't wanna have to start over again... Oct 08 08:30:44 it wasn't too much, relativelly speaking ('cause i install too much stuff, so even a fraction is already kinda alot) Oct 08 08:30:48 MohammadAG: ok. so the one with the power button at the bottom is maps widget? Oct 08 08:32:21 it says: line 9: [ 0: not found Oct 08 08:32:26 but line 9 of what? Oct 08 08:32:34 psycho_oreos: no I didnt think anymore about it :) since you said it was in the PR1.2 then I just dropped it. Oct 08 08:32:34 /kick $USER Oct 08 08:33:40 Kowalczyk, yes Oct 08 08:34:13 ok.. didnt find it. when I searched for ovi maps widget Oct 08 08:36:48 any idea what i need to modify in the scripts to set things again without overwriting the stuff i did inside the copy? Oct 08 08:36:53 aha Oct 08 08:36:55 MohammadAG: it was location Oct 08 08:37:00 ok. I find it. thank you :D Oct 08 08:37:35 thanks.. :) Oct 08 08:38:06 :( Oct 08 08:54:15 brb Oct 08 09:29:50 gonna try redoing the thing but copying over the files from a backup instead of startign over Oct 08 09:51:41 hm, it doesn't wanna overwrite a few folders.... Oct 08 10:05:36 I worry there might be some magic done with the files and folders that is getting lost with me copying things over manually... Oct 08 10:06:55 worried* Oct 08 10:08:05 its not called folders under linux, its called directories Oct 08 10:13:02 its directories in win too, whats the diff? Oct 08 10:15:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folder_%28computing%29 Oct 08 10:33:57 crap, seems it fucked bootmenu up :/ Oct 08 10:58:22 fuck it, i'll reflash and start reinstalling everything again Oct 08 11:19:19 TiagoTiago, just reflash your rootfs with a BM-containing image, restore your BM images, ???, profit! Oct 08 11:20:14 backupmenu seems incompatible with the pivotrooting or whatever it's called, couldn't get to the boot menu with it, and uninstalling it messed up the boot menu Oct 08 11:21:01 Evidently, there's some bit of software you have that's incompatible or something screwy's going on Oct 08 11:21:31 http://robbiethe1st.afraid.org/BackupMenu/flashable_rootfs_v0.56-1-20101109.img is what you need, maby Oct 08 11:21:35 can i have backupmenu AND bootmenu working? Oct 08 11:21:57 i mean, both functionalities, not just backupmenu Oct 08 11:22:04 No; backupmenu relies on bootmenu, but steals control over it Oct 08 11:22:20 ...Oh, I know what you're running into: you need to purge the package Oct 08 11:22:36 too late, the reflash is already done, i'm starting over Oct 08 11:22:42 Fair enough Oct 08 11:23:13 why backupmenu doesn't offer an option of showing the bootmenu that was present before installing backupmenu? Oct 08 11:23:16 Also, there's a way to make both work together, and some have made it work, but I haven't Oct 08 11:23:46 Because I can't figure out how to make it work. If I make a "proper" bootmenu module for BM, it just refuses to show my menu. Oct 08 11:24:07 If I have a "fake" module(which just outright runs BM) it works. Oct 08 11:24:37 Some people have gotten it to work the other way - editing /etc/bootmenu.d/backupmenu file correctly Oct 08 11:24:50 But I've tried like 5 times, and couldn't get it to work on my device Oct 08 11:25:07 I wouldn't even know where to start Oct 08 11:25:21 Check the topic; there's instructions somewhere in there Oct 08 11:25:28 I'd try an advanced search Oct 08 11:27:30 they mention backupmenu a few times, but never say anything about it actually working, there are one or two posts saying they uninstalled it, and somthing else, but i couldn't find anything about being able to have it and the pivotroot thing working together Oct 08 11:28:21 What pivot_root thing? Oct 08 11:29:04 I mean, pivot_root is a function that'd let you boot something different... but what are you doing with it Oct 08 11:29:20 the thing to have a copy of the rootfs on the eMMC and run from it Oct 08 11:29:34 sec, lemme get you the link to the thread Oct 08 11:29:37 Oh. Um, may I ask why? Oct 08 11:29:52 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=59374 Oct 08 11:30:02 so i don't have to worry about rootfs filling up Oct 08 11:30:32 i'm using Pali's version of the scripts, from a few pages down Oct 08 11:30:49 Seems to me like just symlinking a few files'd be quicker and faster... Oct 08 11:31:22 this way i don't have to do anything, just set it once and it puts everything in the eMMC automaticly Oct 08 11:31:37 Also, I will give you a slight warning: I've had the OptFS EXT2 partition get corrupted about 3 times so far in the last year, completely randomly Oct 08 11:31:52 So just make sure you keep a backup once in a while Oct 08 11:36:54 If i was using it the normal way i would have to make backups anyway, since a screwed /home can't be helped by much other than a reflash, no? Oct 08 11:37:48 Potentially yes; I've had good luck running FSCK manually; it worked at least 1/3 times. Oct 08 11:38:10 But that did require having USB access to it, something - AFAIK - that's only available with BM currently Oct 08 11:38:31 or that recue OS thing, no? Oct 08 11:38:44 Potentially; I've never used it Oct 08 11:38:59 It should work right provided it has all it's needed files on the rootfs Oct 08 11:39:36 (the UBIFS rootfs appears to be *incredibly* resilliant to forced poweroffs, etc. Like it was designed for.) Oct 08 11:51:52 How many less N900 would you expect Nokia would've sold if they treated it as a developer model like the N950 (though still producing as many as necessary to cover whatever demand there would've been) ? Oct 08 11:52:29 N950 is not for selling. Oct 08 11:54:08 TiagoTiago, a LOT less. Oct 08 11:55:10 Really? Why do you think that? Oct 08 11:58:21 I thought most of the people who bought it were the same kind of people that went after the 950 Oct 08 11:58:32 i'd very much like the n950 Oct 08 11:58:39 my n900 is getting old :p Oct 08 11:58:59 i'm not a friend of android really Oct 08 11:59:10 and hw qwerty kb is a must Oct 08 12:01:25 Even with all its flaws, i still would have a hard time finding some other device i would be satisfied to have as a replacement for my N900 (TBH i haven't checked the specs and other details on the N950 too deeply yet, but it might be a good replacement, not sure) Oct 08 12:01:51 bindi: for that reason, I got myself an HTC desire z. I lost my n900 at a time when there was no maemo replacement to be had...(and besides, it was in the list of approved purchases at work, which a maemo phone would not be. Oct 08 12:02:06 TiagoTiago: you can't get a n950 Oct 08 12:02:10 (commercially) Oct 08 12:02:44 Really? I thought they were being sold just the same, except with no warranty and other disclaimers about it being only for developers and stuff Oct 08 12:03:07 No. Oct 08 12:03:15 You absolutely can't (legally) buy one. Oct 08 12:03:34 that's disapointing... Oct 08 12:04:18 I do really wonder how many are sitting in a warehouse somewhere. Oct 08 12:06:11 Is it common for Nokia to give one of the round numbers model names for devices that aren't even gonna be sold, and make the name public? Oct 08 12:07:05 hello, maemoer Oct 08 12:07:30 I haven't n900, but get much intrested in it Oct 08 12:09:32 I mean, why didn't they just give it a codename and leave the nice sounding model names for products that can take advantage of the marketing benefits of those names? Oct 08 12:10:50 hi.. sorry to bother you again. but what is this widget at the right bottom corner: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/reepo/screen3_resize.png some sort of fm radio widgeT? have tried to google it but cant find it Oct 08 12:10:56 the 105.30 ON stuff Oct 08 12:17:23 How did you learn about the N900 LaoLang_cool ? Oct 08 12:17:29 SpeedEvil, seems like they have a bunch Oct 08 12:17:45 unless they fixed pycage's first broken device and sent me that Oct 08 12:17:47 which I doubt... Oct 08 12:18:38 I can't get my mame games to run smoothly. Not even games such as lady bug, mr do, pacman runs without lags. Do you have to overclock your machine? Oct 08 12:19:14 TiagoTiago, heard from others :) I'm using FreeBSD, and like to live in cli apps, so maybe n900 is fit for me Oct 08 12:19:28 What exactly was the point treating the N950 like this? Oct 08 12:19:35 LaoLang_cool: I ssee Oct 08 12:19:46 TiagoTiago: internal politics Oct 08 12:20:06 SpeedEvil: can you elaborate on that? Oct 08 12:20:39 LaoLang_cool: did you come to this channel with somthing specific in mind or you just wanna lurk a bit and watch the movement? Oct 08 12:20:41 TiagoTiago: nokia internal politics. Oct 08 12:20:45 lol Oct 08 12:21:06 Nothing that became known outside of their walls? Oct 08 12:22:19 TiagoTiago, I want to lurk and watch all of your talks about n900 Oct 08 12:22:39 hello Oct 08 12:22:50 I see, alright Oct 08 12:22:51 i'm trying to connect my external ir webcam to my n900 Oct 08 12:23:13 i'm using h-e-n, but i'm having problems with device node Oct 08 12:23:14 hmm, perhaps I'm too nerdy, trying to make my n900 into an arcade machine Oct 08 12:23:40 I want to run weechat on n900 Oct 08 12:23:45 after connecting webcam to n900, i can see these new devices in /dev: usbdev1.8_ep00, usbdev1.8_ep81, usbdev1.8_ep82, usbdev1.8_ep83 Oct 08 12:23:55 but i can't connect to neither of them with mplayer Oct 08 12:23:56 and fetchmail + procmail + mutt Oct 08 12:24:21 why? Oct 08 12:24:33 woldrich, me? Oct 08 12:24:33 I run all that on the server, and just ssh to it Oct 08 12:24:37 surely that's what you want, no? Oct 08 12:24:39 yes Oct 08 12:24:45 because I use them on my FreeBSD Oct 08 12:24:51 ↑ Oct 08 12:24:55 I like them Oct 08 12:25:10 don't like the ssh way for some reason.. Oct 08 12:25:17 want to run them natively Oct 08 12:25:19 that's cool LaoLang_cool. there is irssi, mutt, etc in the repos Oct 08 12:25:20 ah, and mupdf! Oct 08 12:25:33 Sicelo, prefer weechat to irssi :) Oct 08 12:25:43 yeah, I just thought it would be more useful to run them in a central place where you can access them from anywhere in the world. but that's just me Oct 08 12:26:18 woldrich, yes, but here I can't use ssh because the enrivoment of networking around... Oct 08 12:27:14 fair enough Oct 08 12:27:48 i was just agreeing with u LaoLang_cool. anyway, i don't see weechat in repo, but u can, of course, compile your own Oct 08 12:31:15 Sicelo, yes, i will try when I get it! Oct 08 12:31:44 n900 has been abandoned, but I think it will long live right? Oct 08 12:31:48 -_- Oct 08 12:32:58 What are the recomendations for cleaning the battery compartment? i've got a bit of dust or some sort of breadcrumbs or somthing in there (i hope it's somthing like that and not some fungus or somthing) Oct 08 12:33:03 N900 is not supported ... Oct 08 12:33:32 Why N900 running out battery so fast for phone calling? Oct 08 12:33:53 there could be all sorts of reasons Oct 08 12:35:13 jiero: bad signal, worn out battery, etc Oct 08 12:35:30 old SIM card Oct 08 12:36:10 Solar flares. Oct 08 12:36:24 lol Oct 08 12:36:48 Do you mean low talk, or standby time? Oct 08 12:37:04 Both. Oct 08 12:38:02 programs in the background (not necessarilly showing windows), desktop widgets, statusbar widgets Oct 08 12:38:18 Do you have skype Oct 08 12:38:46 hi.. sorry to bother you again. but what is this widget at the right bottom corner: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/reepo/screen3_resize.png some sort of fm radio widgeT? have tried to google it but cant find it Oct 08 12:38:53 the 105.30 ON stuff Oct 08 12:39:12 I think it's FMtransmitter Oct 08 12:39:32 http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bproperty%5D=name&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bvalue%5D=fm Oct 08 12:39:52 Kowalczyk and his widgets ;p Oct 08 12:40:07 http://maemo.org/packages/view/simple-fmtx-widget/ Oct 08 12:40:09 Sicelo: hehe yeah.. I like many of the screenshot but none of them list it :/ Oct 08 12:40:25 SpeedEvil: thank you.. :d Oct 08 12:40:42 * SpeedEvil wishes he could get $.10 per question on IRC. Oct 08 12:41:18 haha Oct 08 12:41:20 which wiget does n900 run, gtk or qt? Oct 08 12:41:21 govt would tax you :P Oct 08 12:41:40 they should list the stuff they have in the tread Oct 08 12:41:54 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=36439&highlight=sms+counter&page=1 Oct 08 12:41:59 Sicelo: I can earn 20 pounds a week without it affecting my benefit, more ifIpay into a personal pension. Oct 08 12:42:03 many cool desktop here Oct 08 12:42:24 * SpeedEvil boggles at the idea of cool desktops. Oct 08 12:42:30 I want useful desktops. Oct 08 12:42:34 why did I read that as more if it's a personal question Oct 08 12:42:38 hello, gtk or qt? :) Oct 08 12:42:48 .NET Oct 08 12:42:55 mono... Oct 08 12:43:00 no, stereo Oct 08 12:43:14 cool Oct 08 12:43:22 * LaoLang_cool will go out to buy one Oct 08 12:43:24 we're hacking surround sound on it Oct 08 12:43:34 but seriously, whatever you want Oct 08 12:43:40 I wish the N9 had the same toolkits Oct 08 12:43:53 oh, yes, I mean toolkits Oct 08 12:44:01 Gtk/Qt Oct 08 12:44:03 qt or gtk on n900 Oct 08 12:44:12 either one Oct 08 12:44:14 both? I heard that gtk is the native support Oct 08 12:44:23 yes, but Qt is styled to look native Oct 08 12:44:35 think of it as GNOME on Ubuntu running KDE apps Oct 08 12:44:44 ah, got it Oct 08 12:44:52 IF money wasn't an obstacle, do you guys expect the community would know how to make a successful successor for the N900, worthy of being called its successor? Oct 08 12:44:55 If* Oct 08 12:44:57 basically, you get both toolkits and they look the same Oct 08 12:45:08 TiagoTiago, yes Oct 08 12:45:23 TiagoTiago: Nokia essentially made one already Oct 08 12:45:28 (N950) Oct 08 12:45:36 it can be improved Oct 08 12:45:45 also, yes enough people are mad about it Oct 08 12:45:47 USB OTG hardware support, HDMI, better CPU, etc Oct 08 12:45:53 MohammadAG: OMAP 4 platform Oct 08 12:46:08 well, yes, that covers everything Oct 08 12:46:16 and throw in a 12MP camera, not that it matters Oct 08 12:46:32 the only thing I wouldn't change is RAM Oct 08 12:46:32 where can I get n950? I heard it's for developer only Oct 08 12:46:37 heck, some ex-Nokia engineers would even help Oct 08 12:46:41 LaoLang_cool: you can't get it Oct 08 12:46:47 Why big companies don't see that potential in the community and sponsor our dream device? Oct 08 12:46:54 Ikarus, bad news Oct 08 12:47:06 you can get the N9 Oct 08 12:47:10 TiagoTiago: because it's not the quickest route to a buck Oct 08 12:47:37 Or they believe it would dilute their 'brand image' Oct 08 12:47:43 Or spoil their strategy. Oct 08 12:47:46 hmhm Oct 08 12:47:50 Or confuse stockholders. Oct 08 12:48:09 thing is that designing a phone is hella expensive Oct 08 12:48:11 MohammadAG, n950 has full keyboard, I like fuu keyboard Oct 08 12:48:27 I barely use it Oct 08 12:48:32 The keyboard on the n900 is better. Oct 08 12:48:32 except for terminal and IRC Oct 08 12:48:37 IMO Oct 08 12:48:38 SpeedEvil++ Oct 08 12:48:43 Is it still exspensive if you got a bunch of customers working for free to design somthing they will be buying? Oct 08 12:48:47 The lack of rounded keys make it hard. Oct 08 12:48:49 TiagoTiago: yes Oct 08 12:48:52 the vkb is way better though Oct 08 12:48:57 actually one great thing would be if we could get the physical design of the N900 or N950 and design a new CPU board for it, the mechanical engineering is probably far harder Oct 08 12:49:00 a lot more usable than iOS's keyboard Oct 08 12:49:12 TiagoTiago: In order to design and construct the hardware, you need a large slice of a million dollars. Oct 08 12:49:19 SpeedEvil: hmhm Oct 08 12:49:19 Probably several. Oct 08 12:49:25 design, you don't need a lot Oct 08 12:49:29 In order to get to the point where you can order 5000 phones. Oct 08 12:49:35 constructing it, and putting it through production is Oct 08 12:49:39 Which you need to do to get the costs down. Oct 08 12:49:40 I forgot, did they do away with the inverted T arrowkeys (which is mean for 3 fingers and not 1 thumb) is is it still a bit awkard in that area? Oct 08 12:49:55 MohammadAG: the cost of debugging is also quite high Oct 08 12:49:56 meant* Oct 08 12:50:00 http://www.mauve.plus.com/opensourcehw.txt Oct 08 12:50:02 or is it* Oct 08 12:50:02 Ikarus, debugging what Oct 08 12:50:06 'Why open source hardware is hard' Oct 08 12:50:08 we're still talking hardware Oct 08 12:50:11 remember the hardware mostly Oct 08 12:50:12 MohammadAG: See above Oct 08 12:50:20 MohammadAG: Hardware debugging is _HARD_ Oct 08 12:50:47 MohammadAG: the documents by TI on the OMAP chips (like any complex CPU) have so many errata and you need to keep up with them Oct 08 12:50:50 A 'build, crash, gdb, edit' cycle may cost $1500 Oct 08 12:51:35 SpeedEvil: C) "The chipmaker for the main chip hasn't noticed that their chip doesn't quite do what they say it will do, and the datasheet is wrong." is quite common Oct 08 12:51:39 MohammadAG, why "except for terminal and IRC"? Oct 08 12:51:48 Ikarus: Indeed Oct 08 12:51:53 LaoLang_cool, like to type fast(er) in those Oct 08 12:51:54 I'm looking for a phone that good for terminal and irc.. Oct 08 12:52:00 I get good speeds on vkb though Oct 08 12:52:11 but I get 70WPM or so on the hwkb Oct 08 12:52:17 on the n900? Oct 08 12:52:20 LaoLang_cool: still get a used N900 Oct 08 12:52:25 SpeedEvil, no, 80-90 on that Oct 08 12:52:29 Wow. Oct 08 12:52:44 I only hit ~35wpm, and I considered that quite good. Oct 08 12:53:06 MohammadAG, you mean that vkb has faster speed on typing than phical keyboard? Oct 08 12:53:25 LaoLang_cool, the vkb on the N9 is much faster than the N900's Oct 08 12:53:33 SpeedEvil: but a conservative design based on the huge physical package of the N900 might actually be doable Oct 08 12:53:36 but a hwkb is always faster than a vkb one Oct 08 12:53:45 MohammadAG, got it Oct 08 12:53:56 that's why I like hwkb Oct 08 12:53:59 faster than iOS's or Android's tbh Oct 08 12:54:14 I've been complemented on my typing speed on my my N900, though it was just regular civilians, i don't really have all that many computer nerd friends to hang with IRL Oct 08 12:54:55 or is it complimented? how do i spell that? Oct 08 12:54:58 sent a whole composition in 5 minutes without looking once Oct 08 12:55:00 complimented Oct 08 12:55:04 Ikarus: What do you mean? Oct 08 12:56:14 IRL? Oct 08 12:56:20 SpeedEvil: the new OMAP 4 platform is smaller in size and more importantly, fewer highspeed external busses, if you can fit that in the N900 physical formfactor instead of aiming higher you can design a very conservative PCB Oct 08 12:56:49 In Real Life : That weird and mysterious place where pizzas come from Oct 08 12:57:09 Ikarus: possibly, yes. Oct 08 12:57:19 Ikarus: the modem is still a major problem Oct 08 12:57:21 MohammadAG did you buy n9? or you asume from n950? Oct 08 12:57:28 obtaining the modem is the main problem.... Oct 08 12:57:38 If you go wifi only, it's 'easy' Oct 08 12:57:42 I guess the only vendor willing to deal with you is going to be Huawei Oct 08 12:58:22 * SpeedEvil wonders if there are remanufacturing houses. Oct 08 12:58:32 Take all parts from board A, put them on board B Oct 08 13:05:27 Somtimes i wonder if it wouldn't be good if Nokia straight out gave us the big fat midle finger; seems that often when you piss off hackers they do an amazing job; nothing seems to motivate them more than someone trying to make them not do somthing... Oct 08 13:09:04 ZogG, N950 Oct 08 13:12:15 anyone know how much it cost the openpandora people to do their design? Oct 08 13:12:30 i'd honestly go for a more phone-ish version of what they have Oct 08 13:13:12 sheepbat: [DocScrutinizer's] been there, done that Oct 08 13:14:20 by which you mean.. looked it up and it was a pain in the ass? Oct 08 13:14:42 afaik he asked them if they wanted to add phone stuff, they didn't care Oct 08 13:14:43 :( Oct 08 13:14:49 aww Oct 08 13:15:01 it's understandable Oct 08 13:15:02 phones suck Oct 08 13:16:00 yeah, but it's the most effective way to get ubiquitous internet Oct 08 13:16:05 yeah Oct 08 13:16:07 ..which is why I have an N900 in the first place Oct 08 13:16:13 me too! ^_^ Oct 08 13:16:28 unfortunately, I suspect mine's starting to go Oct 08 13:16:30 i have like 8 minutes of calls in the last three months or something Oct 08 13:16:34 mine too ._. Oct 08 13:16:43 the dropdown menu is starting to give graphical errors Oct 08 13:16:49 although maybe it just needs a reflash.. Oct 08 13:17:42 did you OC it? Oct 08 13:17:52 hmm Oct 08 13:17:55 ..yeah, I did Oct 08 13:17:57 if you didn't, then it's probably something you can fix with a reflash Oct 08 13:18:02 then you could be thoroughly screwed Oct 08 13:18:44 what's the best way to get a new one? Oct 08 13:18:47 the stupid thing is that, as of now, the best open phone you can buy is just another n900 Oct 08 13:18:52 ebay? Oct 08 13:18:54 yes Oct 08 13:18:58 I was thinking ebay Oct 08 13:19:04 but I was wondering if there was a better option Oct 08 13:19:11 a store? Oct 08 13:19:45 TiagoTiago: did they not give the community the big fat middle finger, when they talked about how all the developers should start learning wp7? Oct 08 13:19:51 yeah; I was wonderirg if anyone else sold them Oct 08 13:20:28 I mean somthing like hwo when Sony removed the OtherOS functionality Oct 08 13:20:47 TiagoTiago: ah, some pure evil, rather than the present stupid/evil Oct 08 13:21:10 yeah Oct 08 13:21:23 something like "the new firmware upgrade kills the FM transmitter"? Oct 08 13:22:15 >implying the FM transmitter ever worked Oct 08 13:23:18 it's always worked just fine for me.. Oct 08 13:26:00 sheepbat: oh, cool, do you live on another planet where there's no radio interference whatsoever? Oct 08 13:33:23 kerio: "real" radio stations interfering always happens... Oct 08 13:33:34 anyway, i've used it with very mixed success in UK cities Oct 08 13:33:40 basically depends on which car radio Oct 08 13:42:48 I've found plugging it into the cigarette lighter helps Oct 08 13:42:59 the whole wire becomes a bit of an antenna Oct 08 14:11:18 hey peeps , got an issue when trying to update my metasploit , i use svn update but i get ..... Segmentation fault Oct 08 14:13:13 That's one problem with rsync/ssh for backing up your N900... It chews through battery like no tomorrow Oct 08 14:13:52 which is why you get an external battery Oct 08 14:14:02 I got a 5000 mAh one at fry's Oct 08 14:14:14 lasts a full day no matter what you're doing Oct 08 14:14:27 How do you use that... with no USB port? Oct 08 14:14:38 ? Oct 08 14:14:59 hi there. any helsinki natives can tell me how to use the can recycling machine in Aleppa? :) Oct 08 14:15:08 See... why'd I be using ssh to backup my N900 if I had the USB port still working? Oct 08 14:15:26 ..I did Oct 08 14:16:09 it's less hassle for me to have a program I can just run compared to actually doing all the crap for a physical backup like that Oct 08 14:17:55 Well, I mean, I'd use rsync, but I'd use USB device mode to do it Oct 08 14:18:04 For one thing, it'd be 10X faster Oct 08 14:27:19 hey peeps , got an issue when trying to update my metasploit , i use svn update but i get ..... Segmentation fault does anybody know a fix Oct 08 14:27:44 Try forums Oct 08 14:28:04 * DocScrutinizer does an other slash on the chalkboard - one more OC fatality Oct 08 14:29:00 Who? Oct 08 14:29:38 [2011-10-08 15:13:40] the dropdown menu is starting to give graphical errors [2011-10-08 15:14:38] did you OC it? [2011-10-08 15:14:51] ..yeah, I did Oct 08 14:30:17 We'll see after a reflash if it's a permanate glitch, or just emmc glitch Oct 08 14:30:39 DocScrutinizer: it might not be! Oct 08 14:31:05 Because I *have* noticed occasional eMMC issues, but they're rare enough that I don't know if it's OC, cosmic rays, or just luck. Oct 08 14:31:26 is there a hardware diagnostics program I can run? Oct 08 14:31:41 Maby, but how would it know? Oct 08 14:31:54 Does it still do it after a reboot? Oct 08 14:32:03 sheepbat: nope Oct 08 14:32:26 I'd try reflashing first, could easily be a corrupted graphic file on the OptFS Oct 08 14:33:22 yeah, it persists through reboots Oct 08 14:33:51 And it's the exact same corruption each time you open it? Oct 08 14:34:00 yeah Oct 08 14:34:04 good Oct 08 14:34:06 Try switching themes Oct 08 14:34:07 ..wait Oct 08 14:34:09 it's gone now Oct 08 14:34:20 :-/ Oct 08 14:34:27 reflash Oct 08 14:34:31 I blame the ext2 FS Oct 08 14:34:39 ...it's ext2? Oct 08 14:35:03 ext3 but meh Oct 08 14:35:04 Rootfs is Ubifs, OptFS is EXT2(or maby EXT3 without a journal, same basic thing) Oct 08 14:35:20 where? Oct 08 14:35:21 @robbie tryed forum nothing works Oct 08 14:35:36 Zer0cool, I don't know or care. I've never used it myself Oct 08 14:36:14 /dev/mmcblk0p2 on /home type ext3 (rw,noatime,errors=continue,commit=1,data=writeback) Oct 08 14:37:03 Y'know, it's been over a year since I've OC'd my N900... it's still humming along at 950mhz. It's getting fairly warm now; putting all available resources to sending files over SSH, but it hasn't crashed yet, and I've gone through 3 batteries in the last few hours Oct 08 14:37:38 tat's a nonsense statement Oct 08 14:37:50 (Maxing CPU, eMMC and Wifi really drains the batteries) Oct 08 14:37:52 ...? Oct 08 14:38:04 hm, a new openpandora costs less than a new n900 Oct 08 14:38:22 openpandora+lame phone? Oct 08 14:38:43 OC tear&wear is reducing time to terminal failure, not causing a dropout after 3 batteries Oct 08 14:39:17 No, not saying that. What I'm saying is that it's quite stable currently, even after a year. Oct 08 14:39:28 And yes, I have a good sample, but still Oct 08 14:39:40 CPU lifespan 100.000h, except on 600MHz: 23.000h. Extrapolate to 1000MHz: 600h Oct 08 14:39:46 @alright dick dont comment at all then !! Oct 08 14:40:01 and at 800, DocScrutinizer ? Oct 08 14:40:09 does undervolting help at all? Oct 08 14:40:12 up to your guess Oct 08 14:40:16 no Oct 08 14:40:23 undervolting is nonsense Oct 08 14:40:32 Well, we're just going to have to see how long it lasts under normal use. For me, it lasted longer than the USB port did, so... Oct 08 14:41:09 :-P Oct 08 14:42:45 (undervlting) well it might reduce temperature of CPU chip a bit, which massively helps to extend lifespan on OC Oct 08 14:43:12 how about sticking it directly in front of an AC vent a good portion of the time it's being used? Oct 08 14:43:33 cools the plastic rather than the chip Oct 08 14:43:35 Personally, I undervolted to where it crashed, then brought it up to where it was stable. Seems to work great Oct 08 14:43:50 elecric current is main culprit of OC-tear&wear Oct 08 14:43:55 not temperature Oct 08 14:43:56 Well, it will help, but it'll help extend the battery life more than anything Oct 08 14:44:01 temperature just helps Oct 08 14:44:52 ekectric current *is* higher on higher CPU clock freq, no matter what you do to fight SmartReflex Oct 08 14:45:03 but for cooling you'd need a direct conductor on the surface of the chip Oct 08 14:45:09 like a heatsink Oct 08 14:45:14 that too Oct 08 14:46:03 One thing you could do is setup a script to check approximate temp(from the battery) and limit the CPU depending on that Oct 08 14:46:25 So you could use it at high OC for short bursts, then slow it down if you're doing something that takes a while Oct 08 14:46:33 the thermal resistance from CPU chip to mainboard "heatsink" is several °C/W, and you can't reduce the heat that builds up in die a lot by cooling the mainboard Oct 08 14:47:01 Liquid nitrogen! Oct 08 14:47:20 Even at several C higher than -180C or w/e, it's still cold enough. Oct 08 14:47:22 :P Oct 08 14:47:51 robbiethe1st: (short bursts) correct - for temperature build-up - alas those short periods are sub-millisecond until the chip die heated up locally Oct 08 14:48:50 Oh well. I'd just invest in a spare, used N900, and crank that thing up as high as you can safely go Oct 08 14:49:11 yeah.. at the prices ebay lists, I can buy another one pretty easily Oct 08 14:49:12 Keep backups every week or so(BM makes it easy), and just restore to the new device when it dies. Oct 08 14:49:15 I'm considering getting two Oct 08 14:49:28 Look for 'reboot looped' devices if you can Oct 08 14:49:49 /easy/ to fix(reflash is typically all), and often quite cheap Oct 08 14:49:51 they just need a reflash or something? Oct 08 14:50:11 It's the OptFS which goes screwy Oct 08 14:50:27 pebcak Oct 08 14:50:27 EXT3 on eMMC just... is quite fragile for whatever reason Oct 08 14:51:20 Let me put it this way: UbiFS is /far/ more tolerant of issues than EXT3 is Oct 08 14:51:42 well that's true, ... and not. It's just eMMC or flash in general that's fragile on write, so of course also ext3 is fragile on flash Oct 08 14:52:00 UbiFS seems to be a /lot/ more resistant, though Oct 08 14:52:39 nope, also not true. It's the way NAND is controlled vs the way MMC is *not* controlled (by CPU) that causes that Oct 08 14:53:18 Maby so. Either way, as a whole, A is far less likely to fail than B Oct 08 14:53:48 if you kill the CPU during a page rewrite cycle on NAND then you also will see corrupted pages Oct 08 14:54:00 i'm trying to connect my IR webcam to my n900 with h-e-n. I can see my webcam in lsusb, but makedev does not assign it a /dev/video* node, but a strange /dev/usbv1.*_** that I can't read with mplayer. I tried with make it manually with mknod /dev/video3 c 81 0, but it doesn't work. What can I do? Oct 08 14:54:25 *tried to Oct 08 14:54:34 the point is NAND ubifs is made to avoid page rewrites Oct 08 14:55:07 Fair enough. Anyway, I'm off. Oct 08 14:55:20 o/ Oct 08 14:55:47 Would it be possible to use a different filesystem for /home? Any that would help with that? Oct 08 14:56:26 i know it is possible, but would it cause any showstopper imcompatibility or somthing? Oct 08 14:56:38 ale152: well, I'm glas to hear h-e-n basically works :-D. Check what drivers you need and what parameters those drivers may need Oct 08 14:56:44 glad* Oct 08 14:57:44 parameters are major-minor number for udev? Oct 08 14:57:48 *mknode? Oct 08 14:58:03 mmm Oct 08 14:58:05 ale152: standard approach is to closely inspect how things work on a PC, then copy this concept to your N900 Oct 08 14:58:40 i was just going to say that :D Oct 08 14:58:52 major-minor and udev and mknode all are assuming you got a proper kernel module to deal with that particular peripheral Oct 08 14:59:02 webcam works perfectly on my kubuntu, but i don't know where to inspect... Oct 08 15:00:04 oooh webcam, might get tricky as it *might* (not definitely does) use isochronous mode on USB, which isn't supported on N900 Oct 08 15:00:26 lsusb on desktop: Bus 006 Device 004: ID 0c45:613c Microdia PC Camera (SN9C120) Oct 08 15:00:26 lsusb on n900: Bus 001 Device 014: ID 0c45:613c Microdia Oct 08 15:00:29 afaik Oct 08 15:01:01 i read about a dude who managed to use and external webcam on n900, but he didn't explain how to do that Oct 08 15:01:06 *an Oct 08 15:01:08 ale152: that shows h-e-n properly detected and connected and enumerated the device Oct 08 15:01:23 good :D Oct 08 15:01:52 but it doesn't tell anything about proper drivers used or not used for that USB device Oct 08 15:02:39 mh, ok Oct 08 15:02:55 you need to find out which kernelmodule.so gets loaded by udev for your webcam, on PC Oct 08 15:03:03 if I found the proper source driver, I can just compile it with scratchbox? Oct 08 15:03:04 lsmod might help Oct 08 15:03:25 maybe, it's your only chance anyway :-) Oct 08 15:04:09 and if I found the drivers source? Oct 08 15:04:54 *what if Oct 08 15:06:09 ok, the coder won't never release the driver source :( Oct 08 15:06:22 hmmm is it possible to compile stuff from source on the n900? I tried to compile irssi but I get permission denied on ./configure as root and regular user Oct 08 15:06:51 Kowalczyk, you have to install the make suite Oct 08 15:07:06 aha Oct 08 15:07:22 same as debian? build-essentials?:D Oct 08 15:07:43 because irssi from app manager doesnt have perl compiled right? Oct 08 15:08:10 mmm, I can't remember how I did it, but it was not very easy... Oct 08 15:10:02 ok.. will need to figure it out then :) need to get perl to work in irssi Oct 08 15:13:37 setting up a working build environment on N900 isn't exactly trivial, as you'll need to take care about "optification" by yourself Oct 08 15:14:09 I.E. make sure your rootfs won't fill up with lib litter Oct 08 15:14:11 DocScrutinizer: ok. hmm any guide how to do it? or how to get perl working in irssi. but then I guess compile from source is the only way Oct 08 15:14:47 Kowalczyk: If trying that - copy / to a filesystem with more space - chroot into it - then install build essentials in that. Oct 08 15:14:47 the usual recommended way is to use scratchbox on your desktop PC Oct 08 15:15:14 that was a valid approach how to do it, yes Oct 08 15:15:32 Scratchbox is probably more sane Oct 08 15:15:48 Unless installing scratchbox is going to be a hideous mess. Oct 08 15:15:58 ok. never played scratchbox. never ever looked at it Oct 08 15:16:09 with* Oct 08 15:17:15 DocScrutinizer, i found the source camera driver:D Oct 08 15:17:28 look, this channel probably has the most lunatic N900 users you can probably find, still I only know of ~2..3 who actually got a working gcc suite on their N900 Oct 08 15:17:46 DocScrutinizer, i got :D Oct 08 15:17:58 ok. so basically im screwed. hehe Oct 08 15:18:12 ale152: great - give it a shot on scratchbox, see if it compiles without problems Oct 08 15:18:16 time to google Oct 08 15:18:18 but then i had to flash my n900 because i got no more free space on / :P Oct 08 15:18:24 mine is just flashed Oct 08 15:20:06 * Sicelo doesn't use any scripts with irssi, but, Kowalczyk, are u sure irssi in the repos can't use perl? Oct 08 15:20:12 Sicelo: yes. Oct 08 15:20:14 or no Oct 08 15:20:15 Kowalczyk: build-essentials will eat several 100 mb in / (unless you take care to install it elsewhere) - I've never seen a N900 with just as much as 100MB free space in / Oct 08 15:20:38 Sicelo: it doesnt include /script command and /load perl gets an error Oct 08 15:20:45 DocScrutinizer, do you remember where is located the root of scratchbox? Oct 08 15:21:08 you want to install scratchbox to N900? Oct 08 15:21:11 :-o Oct 08 15:21:23 oh, found it Oct 08 15:21:34 but is it possible to build irssi on another machine. make a .deb package and install on n900? prolly not Oct 08 15:22:08 ale152: scratchbox is meant for cross-compiling, no need for it on N900. On PC SB usually installs to / and eats some 5..7GB there Oct 08 15:22:28 Kowalczyk: that's what SB is all about Oct 08 15:22:37 mh? Oct 08 15:23:00 i don't want to install scratchbox on n900 :P Oct 08 15:23:05 DocScrutinizer: ok. but it cant be done without SB? Oct 08 15:23:28 i already have it on my desktop, i just did not remember this path: /scratchbox/users/ale152/home/ale152/driver/ Oct 08 15:23:43 aah Oct 08 15:23:54 yes, pathnames in SB are a PITA Oct 08 15:24:56 yes as it can or yes as it cant? hmm need to play with SB in slackware then Oct 08 15:25:07 as it seems I only run slackware and mac os x here Oct 08 15:25:07 :D Oct 08 15:25:40 Kowalczyk: if you want to go the geek way to install a complete build environment on your N900, you can build there without SB. Not recommended though, esp for "beginners" Oct 08 15:26:31 installing SB on your PC linux is the recommende way to build packages for maemo Oct 08 15:26:42 DocScrutinizer: ok. I will do that then Oct 08 15:27:08 du -sh /scratchbox -> 5,3G /scratchbox/ Oct 08 15:27:42 ok.. but is it complicated? Oct 08 15:27:50 so with that I can build irssi with perl support? Oct 08 15:28:37 well, installation is a bit clumsy, but after it got installed, you probably learn to use it in less than 2 days ;-) Oct 08 15:29:05 ok Oct 08 15:29:09 time to check slackbuilds Oct 08 15:29:12 DocScrutinizer, kernel version of scratchbox and n900 are different, could this be a problem? Oct 08 15:29:16 doh Oct 08 15:29:23 no slackbuilds Oct 08 15:29:29 unlike installation of a build env on N900 which will possibly take a week til it works at all ;-) Oct 08 15:29:42 :P:P Oct 08 15:30:36 oh. I prolly have to install debian in virtualbox and get scratchbox on there? because it needs apt-get right? Oct 08 15:30:37 ale152: you will need kernel sources (of your currently used kernel on N900) in scratchbox, to build a new kernel module against that Oct 08 15:31:02 :O Oct 08 15:31:19 i don't think i have enough time to waste with it :P Oct 08 15:31:36 if you don't take care about vermagic and stuff (noob talking here), the module may compile but still won't load on your N900 Oct 08 15:32:32 so it would be useless? Oct 08 15:32:56 now you see why h-e-n introduced hostmode into powerkernel but didn't aim at bringing 8534 usb kernel driver modules as well :-) Oct 08 15:33:24 :P Oct 08 15:33:27 note that du /scracthbox typically shows twice the real size due to a bind mount of /scratchbox inside the targets Oct 08 15:33:33 Kowalczyk, http://ossguy.com/?p=475 Oct 08 15:35:05 ale152: yeah I got that Oct 08 15:35:05 :D Oct 08 15:35:30 or I read that* Oct 08 15:35:31 ale152: if you got proper kernel driver module sources, you might pester pali (PK maintainer) or any other kernel dev here to build for / include them into PK Oct 08 15:40:23 ( http://ossguy.com/?p=475 ) has same misconception as almost all pages with howto about system things: for doing ROOT things you use "root" command, not "sudo gainroot" (which is like a sudo on a normal machine, and would make the command think home is ~user, not ~root) Oct 08 15:40:24 * amiconn doesn't like the huge mess that is scratchbox Oct 08 15:41:01 sudo gainroot tends to drop files to user's home that are owned by root and not supposed at all to love in ~user Oct 08 15:41:25 s/love/,ive/ Oct 08 15:41:25 DocScrutinizer meant: sudo gainroot tends to drop files to user's home that are owned by root and not supposed at all to ,ive in ~user Oct 08 15:41:31 live GRRR Oct 08 15:50:00 Andy80: will give it a try then Oct 08 15:50:03 I can just flash it once again Oct 08 15:50:04 :d Oct 08 15:50:16 eh Oct 08 15:50:19 oh ale152 Oct 08 15:50:20 .. Oct 08 15:53:37 MohammadAG ping Oct 08 15:53:53 also on that howto page there's an assumption that all the build essentials won't take much space in /, which isn't exactly correct Oct 08 15:55:15 SpeedEvil's suggestion of cp -a / /home/chroot; chroot /home/chroot, is the sane approach to that stuff Oct 08 15:56:02 (of course the above cmds will fail epically, it's just a 'metapher' aka sketch) Oct 08 15:58:31 possibly it's even more smart to create and loopmount a devel-diskimage file on MyDocs Oct 08 15:59:04 suggested size: 4GB ;-D Oct 08 16:02:27 downside: can't get accessed directly via mass storage mode, you'd rather need to loopmount the disimage to your PC to access its content Oct 08 16:03:12 I'm getting desperate any one selling n900 screws to the uk? Oct 08 16:03:13 well, otoh mass storage mode also doesn't allow access to ~user at all, or to larger /home/* Oct 08 16:03:57 C-S-B: well, I *might* do that, but I'm not feeling it's worth the hassle Oct 08 16:04:29 :( how much would make the hassle worth it? Oct 08 16:04:31 get those screws at your fav local screw-dealer Oct 08 16:04:39 Easier said then done! Oct 08 16:04:52 Most places don't go that small Oct 08 16:04:53 they are like 10ct a dozen Oct 08 16:05:26 If you can point me towards a supplier, I'd be grateful. Strugging to find them. Oct 08 16:05:43 just need the small 6 that fasten the front fram to the slinding mechanism Oct 08 16:05:51 hmm, I only got addr of local dealers here in Germany, sorry Oct 08 16:06:19 To confirm, they are m1.4x2.8 Oct 08 16:06:31 is that all i need to get the right thinb? Oct 08 16:06:34 *thing. Oct 08 16:06:38 dunno, as I've not checked their size Oct 08 16:06:47 yes Oct 08 16:07:11 head spec (philips, torx, etc) Oct 08 16:07:27 pan head, flat head, whatever Oct 08 16:07:47 well they are philps Oct 08 16:07:54 yup Oct 08 16:08:02 and I assume flat hed? Oct 08 16:08:20 yup, though I'm not sure this is the correct term in English Oct 08 16:12:19 /home/jr/Documents/N900/docs/Nokia_N900_RX-51_Service_Manual_L1L2_v1_0.pdf says "SCREW M1.4x2.8" Oct 08 16:13:55 while for slider you got 4 pcs "SCREW M1.4x5.0", and for kbd frame another 2 pcs "SCREW RF1.4x4" Oct 08 16:14:28 the last 2 are the torx Oct 08 16:15:26 Usually when you guys reflash, how long does it take to resintall everything on your N900? Oct 08 16:15:50 from the beggining of the reflash to getting everything done Oct 08 16:15:52 depends on method, no? Oct 08 16:16:27 with restoring a backupmenu image it takes like 5min for flashing plus 5min for restoring Oct 08 16:16:39 doing everything by hand takes a day Oct 08 16:17:25 rstoring a "normal backup" takes several hours, depending on number of apps to restore, and mood of repositories Oct 08 16:18:17 doing everything by hand took about 3 hours for me Oct 08 16:18:25 you know the stock backup app only keeps a list of apps to re-install Oct 08 16:18:28 * amiconn never had to reflash so far Oct 08 16:18:41 * ShadowJK only reflashed once so far Oct 08 16:19:27 and once I repaired extensive damage to /home through executing one line of that on-slider-open script location at a time Oct 08 16:20:55 ShadowJK: I'm tending to state estimated duration * 3..4, as that'S psychologically better for your "customer" to prepare for a 4h action then find it took only 2h, rtaher than I'm telling them "*I* did it in 1h, dunno how long it will take *you* to do it" Oct 08 16:21:33 that's a nice habit Oct 08 16:21:46 Well yeah, I'd reserve an entire day for it for sure :P Oct 08 16:24:18 Would it be easy to explain to me why a pivot root is different than a chroot? Oct 08 16:24:29 yes Oct 08 16:24:31 :-P Oct 08 16:24:45 Can you, please? Oct 08 16:24:56 hmm, lemme ponder Oct 08 16:25:15 DocScrutinizer Just found a company that specialises in micro screws that is round the corner from my work. Not sure if they'll trade to a meagre peasant like myself though. Oct 08 16:25:32 simply put chroot is a root process running as child under a master root, while pivotroot chages the master root Oct 08 16:26:05 I see Oct 08 16:26:21 Where does the name come from? Oct 08 16:26:37 from excel? X-P Oct 08 16:26:58 lol Oct 08 16:37:12 TiagoTiago: http://linux.die.net/man/8/pivot_root Oct 08 16:39:18 interesting, thanx Oct 08 16:52:56 also Oct 08 16:53:00 TiagoTiago: http://linux.die.net/man/2/pivot_root Oct 08 16:54:13 >> Some of the more obscure uses of pivot_root() may quickly lead to insanity. << ;-P Oct 08 16:54:30 lol Oct 08 16:55:29 I wonder what that was about... Oct 08 16:55:30 maybe also worth noticing that pivot_root is not posix conform Oct 08 16:57:11 hello people Oct 08 16:57:37 anyone can help me? Oct 08 16:57:38 N8x0 diablo used pivot_root to switch from initrd to real rootfs Oct 08 16:57:47 ~ask Oct 08 16:57:50 Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will. Oct 08 16:58:29 im trying to make a maemo application from a website. what is the best way of scraping the web data? Oct 08 16:58:57 maybe have a look into "fahrplan" app, as it does exactly that Oct 08 16:59:23 ok many thanks, i'll see Oct 08 16:59:25 There is no maemo-specific way to scrape web data. Use the same methods used everywhere. Oct 08 16:59:42 (i.e. tcp/ip sockets, regular expressions, etc) Oct 08 16:59:50 giorgiline: http://maemo.org/packages/view/fahrplan/ Oct 08 17:00:40 this is not webOS ;-P Oct 08 17:01:10 so, you have to use qnetworkmanager and so on, not webkit, is it? Oct 08 17:01:52 I would imagine if you wanna use webkit you could Oct 08 17:02:58 on maemo generally the app just assumes there's netwok connectivity available Oct 08 17:04:07 I guess there's a way to rise that "connect to internet" requester if there's no network connectivity, but that's a slightly off topic item Oct 08 17:05:02 isn't it suposed to warn you instantly? Oct 08 17:06:45 that's up to your app Oct 08 17:07:31 just like it is on your arbitrary linux desktop Oct 08 17:07:56 ok Oct 08 17:08:11 more work to do xD Oct 08 17:08:18 starting firefox usually doesn't magically crank up my modem dialup internet connection on my desktop Oct 08 17:09:06 and anyway GPRS is a supposed-always-on connection anyway Oct 08 17:09:53 it's largely insane to log out from GPRS APN as soon as your app is closing IP connections Oct 08 17:10:40 again much the same like on desktop linux Oct 08 17:11:04 it won't tear down my DSL modem on closing firefox Oct 08 17:13:18 given the fact it's data transfer volume and not online time that usually costs battery power and real dollars, your app's main goal is to keep data traffic low at both volume and frequency Oct 08 17:14:20 esp pinging the network every 5 seconds is an absolute nogo, all beyond that basic considerations is domain of ICD2 managing network connections on maemo Oct 08 17:15:50 doing it at every request would be just fine? Oct 08 17:17:34 your app should probably only create traffic triggered by UI activity Oct 08 17:18:38 that's absolutely tolerable - though of course it was even better if you could cache as much of data as possible so you wouldn't need to redo the download when user clicks a button or whatever Oct 08 17:19:43 that's an interesting point to keep in mind Oct 08 17:20:08 e.g if you know what the next page looks like, it was for sure a better concept to keep that data local rather than download it on user hitting "next page" button Oct 08 17:21:02 hope I'm not too fuzzy and puzzling in my rant :-) Oct 08 17:21:31 nothing at all Oct 08 17:58:31 should i use Catoriseplus or Catorise+CatoriseGUI? Oct 08 18:03:56 i'll try the plus Oct 08 18:05:13 plus is better Oct 08 18:07:10 It got subfolders?! YAY!!! :D Oct 08 18:14:04 you can create custom sub-directories like the other one Oct 08 18:14:50 the original catorise+catorisegui you couldn't do that and you couldn't even move things that are related to chrooted debian for instance, with catoriseplus you can Oct 08 18:14:52 #@ Oct 08 18:27:07 there is away to make somthing else happen if i hold the pwoer button instead of shutting down the system, right? Oct 08 18:32:48 doubt it Oct 08 18:34:06 pressing it twice quickly should lock device Oct 08 18:34:38 and there is a tweak to show a reboot button as well Oct 08 18:34:55 that's only pressing it once, which brings up a menu Oct 08 18:35:03 How do you respond when people ask what can the n900/maemo do that android can't? Oct 08 18:36:42 plenty of things, FM transmitter built in, wireless pentesting, can have up to 64GB storage space (32GB internal + 32GB microSDHC), can boot into nitdroid and meego (only nexus and nexus S comes unlocked by default) Oct 08 18:36:55 easier to `jail break' Oct 08 18:45:31 run ipython on your phone Oct 08 18:45:37 heck you can install gcc Oct 08 18:49:46 internetishard: openoffice Oct 08 18:50:02 kerio: I actually haven't tried that. My phone is slow as it is, heh. Oct 08 18:50:42 you could in theory run openoffice via ssh/x-forwarding? Oct 08 18:51:02 faina: no, you can run openoffice on the n900 Oct 08 18:51:07 Actually, that would be fast, eh? Oct 08 18:51:10 hell, it's preinstalled in easydebian Oct 08 18:51:24 but is there a way to make it do somthing else when i press and hold? Oct 08 18:51:40 TiagoTiago: perhaps, but not if you press and hold for too long Oct 08 18:52:02 Actually, what would be useful to me would be a video of one of you guys who has optimized your device - booting and starting general apps... Oct 08 18:52:23 Just to see how the latency seems vs mine (and when I very it is a lot different I can figure out why) Oct 08 18:52:43 kerio: I knew there was packages for OO, the running remotely was a 'solution' for OO being slow. Oct 08 18:52:52 oic Oct 08 18:54:06 no way to completly supress the shutdown on hold? Oct 08 18:54:35 TiagoTiago: is there a way to suppress the forced-power-down on button hold on a pc? Oct 08 18:54:54 I think some have a setting on BIOD Oct 08 18:54:55 I'm using 2.6.28.10-power48 is that optimal? Oct 08 18:54:57 BIOS* Oct 08 18:55:14 a hacked BIOS yes, but NOLO is proprietary :) Oct 08 18:55:28 internetishard, not necessarily Oct 08 18:55:43 I was hoping it was treat as just another key, like the power key some keyboards got Oct 08 18:56:33 version 20.2010.36-2.002 is the newest? Oct 08 18:57:13 actually, when the screen is locked, the powerkey won't shut it down no matter what Oct 08 18:57:33 doesn't that indicate it should be possible to intercept the holding of the power button? Oct 08 18:58:49 internetishard, that's the latest official nokia firmware yes Oct 08 18:59:42 internetishard, there's also CSSU which brings in more features, possibly more stability but may also bring instability elsewhere Oct 08 18:59:43 So there are unofficial ones? Oct 08 19:00:30 hatake_kakashi: what's your experience in their relative stabilities? Oct 08 19:00:55 CSSU is unofficial yes, its brought to you by community for community due to lack of nokia's commitment with maemo community Oct 08 19:01:25 sweet, so I'd guess it is already significantly improved Oct 08 19:01:37 for example, I'm dying to have grouping in Contacts Oct 08 19:01:54 internetishard, relative stability? I personally don't think there's any to say much about it :) the device if anything has to remain completely stock to be fairly stable Oct 08 19:02:23 On the "who is it for?" section it says "long-term: all n900 users/owners" Oct 08 19:02:32 Therefore, I'm guessing the aim is to make it more stable than the stock Oct 08 19:02:38 it has improved in fair few aspects (I don't think there's grouping in Contacts function yet) but its not a do-all, be-all fix Oct 08 19:02:48 that's what its aim is yes ultimately Oct 08 19:07:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bREOPHmS-A this guys n900 is really snappy Oct 08 19:08:24 Meanwhile: Florida School District Begins Fingerprinting Students Oct 08 19:09:19 Before the end of the century schools will be doing virtual stripsearches (and cavity searches) Oct 08 19:09:43 Florida Students trick fingerprinting machines by overlaying OJ's prints on top of their own Oct 08 19:10:00 virtual cavity search sounds erotic Oct 08 19:10:30 i'm sure the technology will be used for such things as well Oct 08 19:10:47 wooohooo Oct 08 19:10:52 sorry for spam Oct 08 19:10:53 but Oct 08 19:11:05 that video seems like the owner has an older CSSU version installed, the latter versions of CSSU allows portrait hildon-desktop. Though he could have also blacklisted hildon-desktop (to prevent it from switching between landscape and portrait) Oct 08 19:11:21 connected to internet on my N900 from my cdma modem Oct 08 19:11:46 i wouldn't be surprised if for example eventually a dildo comes with a pico projector that overlayes a "Xray" representation over the skin showing what it is doing inside Oct 08 19:11:49 one more time, amny thanks to h-e-n devs. wow. Oct 08 19:12:20 in real time Oct 08 19:12:31 Tiago: but look at the bright side: they will no longer be targets for terrorism! =) Oct 08 19:12:51 dildos? Oct 08 19:12:53 (I mean both schools and dildos btw) Oct 08 19:12:57 lol Oct 08 19:12:58 Sicelo_, there's a thanks! button on tmo thread. Use it, that's what its for :) Oct 08 19:13:13 :P Oct 08 19:13:26 i have hit it too many times already Oct 08 19:13:33 so have I Oct 08 19:13:39 nothing wrong with that Oct 08 19:16:23 i see Oct 08 19:46:28 the original catorise was just crap, offering no way whatsoever to sort your apps the way *aou* want. So I went for apmefo and am just happy with it (well kinda, the config gui is like bill gates himself invented it, but meh) Oct 08 19:47:02 TiagoTiago: (hold powerbutton) check /etc/mce/mce.ini Oct 08 19:48:37 is there a gui for tweaking that or i'll have to edit it manually? Oct 08 19:51:32 TiagoTiago: (intercept powerbutton hold) it works that way: on pressing PB a timer (8s usually) gets started, and when that timer expires the device reboots hard. Same time on PB press a IRQ is triggered and sensed by kernel, so kernel now has 8s time to intercept the watchdog timer action Oct 08 19:54:03 I can't replace the shutdown when the timer finishes with a custom command? Oct 08 19:54:18 (GUI) I bet there are some GUIs to deal with some of the settings in mce.ini, but I'm not aware of a dedicated complete GUI just for that Oct 08 19:54:28 without worrying about the risk of an accidental shutdown? Oct 08 19:54:36 TiagoTiago: nope, this is hardwired for good reason Oct 08 19:55:14 you need to cancel that timer actively whenever the IRQ fires Oct 08 19:55:33 The way it shuts down is safer than pulling the battery i assume Oct 08 20:02:23 What about replacing the shutdown for the regular time, but still making it go down if i hold the button for 30 seconds, would that be possible to make without going against the safety reasons for the regular shutdown? Oct 08 20:04:47 it shuts down by informing kernel about power-down-pending (iirc) via IRQ, then running the power down sequence hardcoded/configured in twl4030, which in turn is switching down one VDD after the other Oct 08 20:06:42 TiagoTiago: you can do whatever you want as long as you make sure you receive the powerbutton-pressed IRQ and reset the timer so it doesn't trigger. I guess kernel even does that for you by default Oct 08 20:07:30 What exactly is the safety reason for the shutdown being necessary there? To force a shutdown when the system is hanging? Oct 08 20:09:46 so the normal supposed way of a long-powerbutton-press is: kernel detects PB-IRQ, kernel winds a 1s timer, on expiry kernel resets the watchdog hw-timer in twl4030 and checks if powerbutton already got pushed for >NN seconds (say 12s), on reset of the hw wd timer twl4030 triggers the IRQ again, this starting the kernel 1s delay again -> go back to square one Oct 08 20:10:23 yes, exactly, it is supposed to shutdown the system when even kernel is hung up so can't act on PB press anymore Oct 08 20:11:28 so if PB-8s doesn't shut down the system, that's because kernel still is actively servicing it and intercepts the shutdown Oct 08 20:12:21 (on N900 twl4030 variant it's a bit more awkward, as this behaviour isn't power-on default but needs enabling from sw side :-/ ) Oct 08 20:54:28 ShadowJK, ping Oct 08 20:55:38 hmm bah.. DocScrutinizer, ping Oct 08 20:56:29 wazzup? Oct 08 20:58:22 was about to ask if you're familiar with ShadowJK's bq script: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Charge_Meter. Then I saw what the acronyms were when `cat' on the script itself. Oct 08 20:59:35 sorry, you lost me on the second half Oct 08 21:00:19 and yes, I'm familiar with it, it's based on my original draft Oct 08 21:00:37 I guess this strange error still persist. When I momentarily put pressure onto my 3rd N900's (rev 2101) wall charger cable (when wall charger is connected and the device is connected to that wall charger of course) the device claims it is disconnected from wall charger. As soon as I relieve that pressure the device claims it goes back to charging. The device was already fully charged prior to me putting minor pressure onto it Oct 08 21:01:11 ahh I meant like I was about to ask what is CSOC, RSOC, etc meant, but those were already mentioned when you view the script itself, its written as part of a comment Oct 08 21:01:41 that's not so much an error Oct 08 21:02:04 if you unplug the device - even for a few momnets - then it will go back to charging Oct 08 21:02:08 Well - charging state Oct 08 21:02:12 by putting pressure I meant as in putting my thumb onto the microUSB connector that's connected to N900 Oct 08 21:02:23 If you actually look at the output of the script - there isn't really much difference Oct 08 21:02:24 o.O Oct 08 21:02:39 That indicates that you have an intermittent connector Oct 08 21:03:24 ahh you're the bloke that recommended me to that page :D yes the CSOC and RSOC shows 100% however, my other N900 does not exhibit the same problem even if I momentarily disconnect its wall charger cable Oct 08 21:04:02 bah :/ that means I'll need to get my microUSB port fixed on that 2101 N900 Oct 08 21:05:39 yes, that's most likely a hw defect on either USB plug or USB receptacle contacts or soldering pins Oct 08 21:06:18 great... :| thanks guys for input Oct 08 21:06:41 and for the inconsistent behaviour regarding (not) signalling charger removal and re-insertion, I also noticed that and tbh I don't have a good story completely explaining it Oct 08 21:08:13 also.. on my recent trip to h.k. I bought a microUSB port. Now I read there's three types of microUSB but does the port (female connector) also define what type of microUSB it is? or is it actually the wiring? If its wiring can solder easily redefine it or not? Oct 08 21:08:22 there also seems to be a sleeping bug in PK about charger detection rsp enabling charging rsp booting when on charger Oct 08 21:08:41 hmm I personally haven't noticed that on any of my N900, not with device not notifying of removal and re-insertion Oct 08 21:10:06 though on my old (2204) N900, I do have intermittent issues with initial connection to wall charger in sleep mode. Device does not note that its charging nor does it seem to be accepting any inducted currents. However reinserting the wall charger cable the device automatically puts itself to charge mode Oct 08 21:10:55 that's roughly what I was talking about, yes Oct 08 21:11:04 I'm guessing that could be the sleeping bug you were referring to Oct 08 21:11:16 ahh yes.. I was getting a little confused over the terminology rsp Oct 08 21:11:30 rsp = response? Oct 08 21:33:20 ading off, cya Oct 08 21:33:25 i'm heading off* Oct 08 21:33:37 respective Oct 08 21:34:36 maybe s/rsp/or/ Oct 08 21:35:36 actually my dictionary says /resp is the right term Oct 08 21:36:10 respectively /resp./; and/or Oct 08 21:39:07 ahh I'm not familiar with shorthands :) Oct 08 21:39:18 though I'm slowly picking it all up Oct 08 23:42:34 hm, im using qtsdk to deploy my app (containing an internal library) to my n900 (copy), and it tries to copy lib.a.1, lib.a.1.0 etc, but doesnt generate/symlink those Oct 08 23:43:19 now i would like to remove the entries of lib.a.1 etc, because i dont need them on the phone, it says to edit the project file, but i cant find the reference there, any hints? Oct 08 23:44:25 dirty fix would be to call a post compile script to generate the symlinks Oct 09 00:43:27 hello, I was planning to buy a N900. is this still worth going for, or is there an alternative that use maemo ? Oct 09 00:44:32 The n9 is a very different device that uses an operating system developed from maemo Oct 09 00:45:25 SpeedEvil, is that n9 open like n900? Oct 09 00:45:39 or is it going to use a special maemo? Oct 09 00:46:48 It's not nearly as open. It depends which bits of open are important to you. Oct 09 00:47:02 Can you compile and install stuff on the phone - yes. Oct 09 00:55:54 Biggest N9 advantage is quadruple RAM. Biggest negative is no keyboard and closed. Oct 09 00:56:12 Closed is a relative term. Oct 09 00:56:19 Closed compared to the n900, yes. Oct 09 01:16:43 for the openness of "compile and install stuff on phone" it's as open as any $RANDOM_SMARTPHONE Oct 09 01:16:56 maybe a bit less than most others Oct 09 01:19:51 GeneralAntilles: Ping Oct 09 01:20:01 Pong? Oct 09 01:20:09 Also: Hey-oh. :) Oct 09 01:20:12 GeneralAntilles: Hows it been? Oct 09 01:20:17 Well enough Oct 09 01:20:18 You? Oct 09 01:20:42 Been good Oct 09 01:20:59 Kinda surprised to see Meego going away now to Oct 09 01:21:10 I saw the news and laughed Oct 09 01:21:12 Oh well Oct 09 01:21:46 I think they have killed any chance of anyone working on there new OS because why keep working on something they are going to kill in a year Oct 09 01:22:21 Well, they have some backing from Samsung Oct 09 01:22:25 Which'll certainly help Oct 09 01:22:37 and, seemingly, they really don't WANT that much help from the hobbyists. Oct 09 01:22:40 Well - meego != maemo Oct 09 01:22:53 It's really more LiMo than MeeGo. Oct 09 01:22:57 yeah Oct 09 01:23:34 hello Oct 09 01:24:05 Yeah, I learned along time ago I was just a hobbyist and didn't matter lol Oct 09 01:24:10 don't mean to be a pain but can someone talk me through installing http://wiki.maemo.org/The_One_Ring on my Nokia N900? Oct 09 01:25:13 never heard of the one ring before Oct 09 01:25:14 GeneralAntilles you still at Florida? Oct 09 01:25:30 Yeppers Oct 09 01:26:26 Cool wasn't sure if you were done yet or not. Oct 09 01:27:21 depressed: Should be in Application Manger in Extras Oct 09 01:27:24 Never. ;) Oct 09 01:27:51 AndrewFBlack: I don't know how to get to extras lol Oct 09 01:28:06 If I load this file on my browser will that install ? http://maemo.org/downloads/product/raw/Maemo5/telepathy-theonering/?get_installfile Oct 09 01:28:25 depressed: Yeah should Oct 09 01:29:00 depressed: but I've been out of the Maemo world for a while so I might not remember right Oct 09 01:29:18 AndrewFBlack: still loyal to the channel lol Oct 09 01:29:37 I'm kind of sick of every other platform out there Oct 09 01:29:37 depressed: not really just logged into for first time in like a year Oct 09 01:29:44 cool Oct 09 01:34:11 why on earth is qtsdk trying to copy a lib.a and especially a lib.a.1 to the device? what is "the project file" i should edit? this smells like a bug :( Oct 09 01:53:14 I still can't get that installed Oct 09 01:54:53 hm it's doing it Oct 09 02:11:01 hello everyone. Anyone using x2x to remotely control n900 through their keyboard/mouse off their desktop? I'm having some difficulties getting it to work Oct 09 02:51:05 any way to export sms from android phone to n900 without nokia pc suite? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 09 02:59:57 2011