**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Nov 02 02:59:57 2011
Nov 02 08:28:50 <jonwil> hmmm, my N900 is telling me I can get that security update now
Nov 02 08:29:00 <psycho_oreos> PR1.3.1?
Nov 02 08:29:03 <jonwil> yes
Nov 02 08:30:03 <jonwil> Lets hope that means the bits for the cssu to ship drop soon
Nov 02 08:33:05 * valerius tried to install an new update for maemo 5 today -- deinstalled busybox and cannot install it again
Nov 02 08:34:30 <jonwil> worked flawlessly for me
Nov 02 08:34:41 <valerius> So, I was need to reflash, today reinstalled all my software through gprs
Nov 02 08:34:46 <jonwil> updated some security related packages
Nov 02 08:38:09 <psycho_oreos> valerius, would have been a better idea if you used backupmenu
Nov 02 08:41:03 <valerius> psycho_oreos backupmenu? thanks, will try...
Nov 02 08:41:51 <psycho_oreos> valerius, you'll need to create a backup first (obviously), and then you should be set.. I hope you do not have any other programs that uses fanoush's bootmenu
Nov 02 08:44:16 <valerius> I still don't have, but want to try to install something like l4linux or l4android in the future, so I would probably need the bootmenu
Nov 02 08:45:37 <valerius> are they conflicting? why you hope I don't have such prrograms?
Nov 02 08:45:45 <psycho_oreos> never heard of l4linux or l4android and I don't think they'd be using fanoush's bootmenu. Afaik there are two projects that depends on fanoush's bootmenu, one of which is backupmenu by robbiethe1st
Nov 02 08:45:51 <psycho_oreos> yes they conflict
Nov 02 08:48:34 <valerius> l4linux and l4android are respectively, linux and android working deprivileged over l4 microokernel. L4/Fiasco and l4linux could be compiled for ARM architecture
Nov 02 08:49:05 <valerius> they need some kind of a bootmanager
Nov 02 08:49:39 <valerius> though, I may be confused bootmenu with u-boot
Nov 02 08:50:05 <psycho_oreos> for some reason I don't think fanoush's bootmenu can provide that unless you use something like kexec. So that would probably leave you with either multibooot (ugh) or uboot
Nov 02 08:50:14 <psycho_oreos> that's what I'm thinking :)
Nov 02 08:52:19 <valerius> kexec? so, it can boot only linux kernels but not other? what multiboot compliant managers do exist? is there some version of grub ported?
Nov 02 08:54:43 <psycho_oreos> kexec allows you too boot another kernel basically. Though it cannot happen at nolo boot time unless if after it boots into the initial kernel and maybe its environment. as for other multiboot compliant managers, there's only two. Fyi, multiboot itself is also a package that deals with booting up other OS by overwriting the initial blocks. No, GRUB hasn't been ported
Nov 02 09:37:56 <jonwil> My mission to document the undocumented continues, I have just come up with a dev package for browser-neteal which lets you talk to the browserd daemon
Nov 02 11:08:43 <rly> Also, typing all these commands on the phone directly takes forever.
Nov 02 11:08:43 <SpeedEvil> Set it up mostly using ssh
Nov 02 11:08:43 <SpeedEvil> over wifi
Nov 02 11:08:44 <rly> I also never get why people don't just write scripts on pages like this.
Nov 02 11:08:44 <rly> Then you don't need a 'tutorial', you just copy and paste the command in a terminal, and you are done.
Nov 02 11:08:44 <ruskie> doesn't really take forever
Nov 02 11:08:44 <psycho_oreos> you don't learn just by running scripts
Nov 02 11:08:44 <ruskie> rly, the point of a tutorial is to teach how to do it without a script
Nov 02 11:08:44 <rly> I will do it via wifi now.
Nov 02 11:08:44 <ruskie> you can make your own script after that
Nov 02 11:08:44 <rly> If it actually wants to learn me something, it should contain more information.
Nov 02 11:08:44 <psycho_oreos> you're welcome to add more information as you wish
Nov 02 11:08:44 <rly> For example, what's the 'default route'?
Nov 02 11:08:44 <rly> Why does something like that even exists?
Nov 02 11:08:44 <psycho_oreos> for now there's enough information for the curious one to go find out whatever they need to know
Nov 02 11:08:44 <psycho_oreos> and that's unix networking
Nov 02 11:08:45 <villager> rly: probably most people who are interested know that the default route is what allows you to access the rest of the internet as opposed to your local home network
Nov 02 11:08:45 <psycho_oreos> I'm pretty sure by the time you spanned out every possible subject that covers for a single page that discusses how to get USB networking. You end up with a rather nice 80 pages worth of useless garbage for one that only needs to read a portion of it to get the job done
Nov 02 11:12:17 <rly> villager: but why can't it just try all available interfaces? Perhaps I have 100 different ways to connect to the internet. It could use all of them in parallel.
Nov 02 11:12:17 <ruskie> you generally need more work to be multi-homed
Nov 02 11:12:28 <rly> ruskie: that's exactly the problem.
Nov 02 11:15:49 <rly> That they thought that 30 years ago is bad enough; that they are still thinking this is ridiculous.
Nov 02 11:15:49 <ruskie> what?
Nov 02 11:15:49 <ruskie> multi-homed setups?
Nov 02 11:15:49 <rly> Yes, why isn't that default?
Nov 02 11:15:49 <ruskie> because there's probably less than 1% of the world using this?
Nov 02 11:15:49 <rly> Seems like a terrible excuse.
Nov 02 11:15:49 <ruskie> not really
Nov 02 11:15:50 <ruskie> unless you're a datacenter or have some requirement to be online 24/7 with never failing multi-homed doesn't make much sense
Nov 02 11:19:35 <DocScrutinizer> err... dang I thought I have a bit of a clue about networking. Now you lost me
Nov 02 11:19:36 <DocScrutinizer> isn't there a parameter called "METRIC" on route? isn't it meant to calculate what'S the cheapest of alternative routes?
Nov 02 11:19:36 <Guest36263> Think so.
Nov 02 11:19:37 * Guest36263 stabs nickserv
Nov 02 11:19:37 <DocScrutinizer> and would I want any of my network devices to spam all my subnets with all possible destinations?
Nov 02 11:19:37 <rly> What wireless connections does the n900 support? I shared it from my laptop, but it is listed, except I cannot visit any website.
Nov 02 11:23:14 * DocScrutinizer is temped to answer with ~question
Nov 02 11:30:38 <rly> What do I have to use as the standard gate way? The IP of the laptop or of the router?
Nov 02 11:34:22 <nusse_> rly: try the router ;)
Nov 02 11:34:23 <rly> nusse_: I am sharing the internet from my laptop to the phone and I did that.
Nov 02 11:34:25 <rly> nusse_: I have a connection, except it still doesn't work.
Nov 02 11:38:10 <rly> nusse_: if I ping it, it is 'unreachable'.
Nov 02 11:38:10 <nusse_> then try the laptop
Nov 02 11:41:44 <DocScrutinizer> wtf are you doing?
Nov 02 11:41:45 <rly> DocScrutinizer: Router <-> Laptop <-> Wifi <-> Phone
Nov 02 11:41:46 <DocScrutinizer> err, your laptop has a builtin AP? or with WiFi you meant adhoc mode?
Nov 02 11:45:20 <rly> DocScrutinizer: adhoc mode
Nov 02 11:45:20 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I have seen it working before, but I forgot how to configure it.
Nov 02 11:45:20 <DocScrutinizer> or is your "router" only connecting to your laptop while WiFi has no connection to internet?
Nov 02 11:45:20 <rly> DocScrutinizer: the router is a real router.
Nov 02 11:45:21 <rly> DocScrutinizer: so, just UTP between the router and the laptop.
Nov 02 11:45:21 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
Nov 02 11:45:21 <rly> DocScrutinizer: the 'wifi' is generated by the wireless ship in adhoc mode on the laptop.
Nov 02 11:45:21 <DocScrutinizer> whatever, first prerequisite seems you get adhoc mode working
Nov 02 11:45:21 <DocScrutinizer> which could be more tricky than sharing the internet
Nov 02 11:52:53 <hiemanshu> adhoc mode is easy, all you have to do is give the right IPs, I do it all the time at home
Nov 02 11:52:53 <DocScrutinizer> well, and that's exactly the problem
Nov 02 11:56:19 <DocScrutinizer> the define default route to be via IP of PC, and you're set on phone side for sharing laptop internet to phone
Nov 02 11:56:19 <DocScrutinizer> then*
Nov 02 11:56:40 <DocScrutinizer> the laptop side is a bit more tricky, and obviously quite dependant on what OS you got there
Nov 02 11:58:16 <DocScrutinizer> and obviously the gateway is the laptop, not the router
Nov 02 11:59:17 <mece> hey is it possible to record the sounds that the phone makes?
Nov 02 11:59:19 <DocScrutinizer> but that's really not your problem as long as you can't even ping the laptop
Nov 02 11:59:25 <mece> internally I mean
Nov 02 11:59:30 <DocScrutinizer> recaller
Nov 02 11:59:43 <mece> does that record all sounds? How does it do it?
Nov 02 11:59:44 <DocScrutinizer> source=system
Nov 02 11:59:49 <DocScrutinizer> I think
Nov 02 11:59:50 <mece> ok cool :)
Nov 02 11:59:58 <mece> do we have that for harmattan I wonder
Nov 02 12:00:11 <DocScrutinizer> quite probably not
Nov 02 12:00:44 <mece> because of aegis?
Nov 02 12:00:57 <DocScrutinizer> kinda, yeah
Nov 02 12:01:02 <mece> gah
Nov 02 12:01:36 <DocScrutinizer> see javispedro's problems with missing audio ploicy for FMRX
Nov 02 12:01:52 <DocScrutinizer> policy*
Nov 02 12:05:04 <Sicelo> rly: how is your laptop connected to touter, and, as asked before, what OS u have?
Nov 02 12:05:21 <Sicelo> s/tou/rou
Nov 02 12:08:09 <rly> Sicelo: Ubuntu
Nov 02 12:10:13 <Sicelo> iptables is your friend then :)
Nov 02 12:10:47 <Sicelo> u say n900 can't ping laptop?
Nov 02 12:30:05 <Sicelo> hmm, i don't see any update after apt-get update, or via HAM
Nov 02 12:31:01 <Sicelo> i have Nokia Applications, and Nokia System Software Updates, and both update without errors
Nov 02 12:34:31 <rly> Sicelo: under connection information under the heading IPv4 I see an IP4 address of what likely is the adhoc network address.
Nov 02 12:35:06 <rly> Sicelo: I put that into the standard gateway address, but it doesn't do web.
Nov 02 12:35:53 <DocScrutinizer> rly: I told you to get your adhoc and ping from phone to laptop working *first*
Nov 02 12:36:36 <DocScrutinizer> forget your internet forwarding and gateway and route and whatnot, as long as you can't even *ping* your laptop
Nov 02 12:37:37 <DocScrutinizer> or ping the phone from laptop (basically same thing)
Nov 02 12:37:50 <rly> DocScrutinizer: ping 10.42.43.1 results in sendto: network is unreachable.
Nov 02 12:38:07 <rly> DocScrutinizer: the broad cast address is 192.168.2.255
Nov 02 12:38:08 <DocScrutinizer> umm, yes. 
Nov 02 12:38:14 <DocScrutinizer> ouch
Nov 02 12:38:17 <Sicelo> from which side was this adhoc network created?
Nov 02 12:38:47 <rly> This is pinging the laptop from the phone.
Nov 02 12:39:12 <DocScrutinizer> rly: you have to understand your adhox network has (and has to have) a different subnet to what your laptop got from your router
Nov 02 12:39:40 <rly> DocScrutinizer: yes, I understand that.
Nov 02 12:40:01 <DocScrutinizer> so please rethink your ping command above
Nov 02 12:40:29 <rly> DocScrutinizer: the 10.<whatever> is what Ubuntu reports to be the IP address of the adhoc access point.
Nov 02 12:40:39 <rly> DocScrutinizer: the usual laptop address is 192.<something>
Nov 02 12:40:48 <Sicelo> from which side was this adhoc network created?
Nov 02 12:40:59 <DocScrutinizer> it has to be like "phone: 192.168.2.55; laptop:192.168.2.66; on phone #>ping 192.168.2.66"
Nov 02 12:41:00 <rly> Sicelo: the laptop creates it.
Nov 02 12:41:22 <DocScrutinizer> well
Nov 02 12:41:23 <DocScrutinizer> then
Nov 02 12:41:47 <DocScrutinizer> it has to be like "phone: 10.0.2.55; laptop:10.0.2.66; on phone #>ping 10.0.2.66"
Nov 02 12:41:49 <rly> DocScrutinizer: so, how do I get rid of the 10.<something>?
Nov 02 12:42:05 <rly> Ok, apparently that's not important.
Nov 02 12:42:08 <Sicelo> give us ifconfig wlanX outputs for both N900 and laptop
Nov 02 12:42:49 <rly> Sicelo: the bcast is 192.X for the phone, which is wrong.
Nov 02 12:43:03 <DocScrutinizer> setting up adhoc obviously and evidently is non-trivial
Nov 02 12:43:05 <rly> Sicelo: inet is 192.<something>
Nov 02 12:43:09 <DocScrutinizer> :-P
Nov 02 12:43:35 <rly> Sicelo: (also on phone)
Nov 02 12:43:58 <DocScrutinizer> rly: please stop sharing 'cooked' info. Your interpretation most likely is spoiling the info
Nov 02 12:44:57 <DocScrutinizer> Sicelo asked for a pastebin of #>ifconfig  output
Nov 02 12:45:20 <rly> DocScrutinizer: and how am I supposed to provide that? I have no internet on the phone.
Nov 02 12:45:38 <DocScrutinizer> :shrug:
Nov 02 12:45:41 <rly> There are about 5 fields to fill in as a user.
Nov 02 12:45:56 <rly> I can say what I put in there, but otherwise I did nothing exciting.
Nov 02 12:46:53 <rly> So, I said IP-address: 192.168.2.103 subnetmask 255.255.255.0 standard gateway 10.42.43.255 primary dns adres 10.42.43.255
Nov 02 12:47:02 <rly> That's in the GUI on the phone.
Nov 02 12:47:15 <rly> The numbers starting with 10. come from Ubuntu.
Nov 02 12:47:23 <DocScrutinizer> which is utterly wrong as standard gateway is in another subnet
Nov 02 12:48:04 <rly> I am glad that you can see it is wrong, but why?
Nov 02 12:48:09 <Sicelo> ok. well, delete the whole network from both laptop and N900. then, on laptop, in your Connection Manager, make a new wireless connection, and don't make IP static..
Nov 02 12:48:18 <rly> I want a static IP.
Nov 02 12:48:29 <Veggen> rly: How is your phone to know where 10.42.43.255 is?
Nov 02 12:48:32 <DocScrutinizer> and as long as you don't conect to that adhoc you won't change anything with the editing of settings
Nov 02 12:48:32 <Sicelo> :/
Nov 02 12:49:24 <Sicelo> rly: you can tweak it once it works... right now u want this to work
Nov 02 12:49:37 <DocScrutinizer> *sigh*
Nov 02 12:49:38 <rly> Veggen: it is the ip address of the adhoc access point?
Nov 02 12:49:48 <DocScrutinizer> NO it isn't
Nov 02 12:49:57 <rly> DocScrutinizer: then why does Ubuntu say it is?
Nov 02 12:50:09 <DocScrutinizer> because you think it does
Nov 02 12:50:15 <rly> DocScrutinizer: ok, I was wrong.
Nov 02 12:50:21 <Sicelo> continuing from where i was, make sure the laptop is connected to your new connection. ip will probably be 10.42.43.1... 
Nov 02 12:50:49 <Sicelo> now, u should pick that network up with your N900, probably 10.42.43.64 for N900
Nov 02 12:50:59 <Sicelo> this will ping
Nov 02 12:51:39 <Sicelo> rly: i have always used ad-hoc on my N900 until i got a wlan ap
Nov 02 12:53:15 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I recreated the connection, did ping 10.42.43.1, but I get Network is unreachable.
Nov 02 12:54:09 <Veggen> rly: what is the ip-adress on both sides, now?
Nov 02 12:54:23 <DocScrutinizer> rly: dude, I'm not even interested in that. We asked you to share verbatim info of ifconfig
Nov 02 12:55:05 <DocScrutinizer> the COMMAND ifconfig in XTERM
Nov 02 12:55:31 <DocScrutinizer> under root, if this might be unclear
Nov 02 12:56:16 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I have it in front of me the whole time. Now, inet addr: 192.168.2.103 Bcast:192.168.2.255
Nov 02 12:56:28 <rly> Mask is 255.255.255.0
Nov 02 12:56:39 <DocScrutinizer> that's for which interface?
Nov 02 12:56:43 <rly> wlan0
Nov 02 12:56:55 <DocScrutinizer> good, and what's the same info on laptop?
Nov 02 12:57:10 <rly> The laptop says 10.42.43.1
Nov 02 12:57:16 <rly> I have no idea why.
Nov 02 12:57:19 <DocScrutinizer> for wlan0?
Nov 02 12:57:30 <Sicelo> that's good rly..
Nov 02 12:58:01 <rly> The laptop says inet addr 10.42.43.1, Bcast 10.42.42.255
Nov 02 12:58:05 <Sicelo> for laptop side, that is. your N900 is not connected to laptop if it has 192. ...
Nov 02 12:58:20 <DocScrutinizer> rly: for which interface?
Nov 02 12:58:28 <jonwil> bah, how can I get tutorial-eal-bin (a hildon app with a .launch file) to run inside GDB?
Nov 02 12:58:31 <rly> Sicelo: wlan0
Nov 02 12:58:35 <rly> DocScrutinizer: wlan0
Nov 02 12:58:48 <DocScrutinizer> rly: your adhoc is not connected
Nov 02 12:59:40 <rly> DocScrutinizer: the adhoc network has been created, because I see an icon saying that it is active.
Nov 02 12:59:52 <rly> DocScrutinizer: are you implying that Ubuntu is lying?
Nov 02 13:00:02 <DocScrutinizer> seems you connected to another adhoc network then
Nov 02 13:00:03 <Sicelo> rly: no one implies that
Nov 02 13:00:10 <rly> DocScrutinizer: the n900 also shows a connected icon.
Nov 02 13:00:22 <rly> I connected to UbuntuAdhoc.
Nov 02 13:00:36 <rly> The laptop displays this and the phone confirms this.
Nov 02 13:00:52 <DocScrutinizer> anyway this config can not work
Nov 02 13:01:18 <DocScrutinizer> all peers in an adhoc network have to share one subnet addr, which is covered by the mask
Nov 02 13:01:18 <Sicelo> where did N900 get ip address? you assigned it?
Nov 02 13:01:30 <rly> Sicelo: yes
Nov 02 13:01:36 <DocScrutinizer> *SIGH*
Nov 02 13:01:44 <rly> Ok, so I just had to do 10.<>
Nov 02 13:01:50 <Sicelo> give it 10.42.43.64
Nov 02 13:04:06 <rly> Ok, then it works. So, how can I go from some machine running at 192.<>, not being the laptop to 10.42.43.64?
Nov 02 13:04:21 <DocScrutinizer> not at all
Nov 02 13:04:28 * Sicelo shoots rly down
Nov 02 13:04:29 <Sicelo> :P
Nov 02 13:04:44 <DocScrutinizer> (unless you'd use mask 0.0.0.0 which probably will fail epically)
Nov 02 13:04:57 <Sicelo> why do u have interest in the 192.. network?
Nov 02 13:05:08 <rly> Sicelo: because that's my work station.
Nov 02 13:05:22 * DocScrutinizer headdesks
Nov 02 13:05:24 <Sicelo> it's the one with internet?
Nov 02 13:05:56 <rly> Sicelo: no, that's yet another machine.
Nov 02 13:06:03 <Sicelo> :/
Nov 02 13:06:12 * DocScrutinizer headdesks a bit more
Nov 02 13:06:17 <Sicelo> :P
Nov 02 13:06:41 <Sicelo> laptop has a connection to this 192 network?
Nov 02 13:06:56 <rly> Sicelo: the eth0 of the laptop is on that network.
Nov 02 13:07:22 <DocScrutinizer> Sicelo: I got 192.168.1.1/24 subnet here. Why can'z I reach your 192.168.1.45 machine?
Nov 02 13:07:40 <rly> Sicelo: for example, I could ssh to the laptop and then go here.
Nov 02 13:07:49 <DocScrutinizer> it's the same network, no? X-P
Nov 02 13:08:03 <Sicelo> so use iptables on your laptop to bridge the wlan0 and eth0 ifaces
Nov 02 13:08:05 <rly> DocScrutinizer: ok, better question. Is there a way to make them one network?
Nov 02 13:08:12 <DocScrutinizer> no
Nov 02 13:08:21 <rly> Who designed this internet? ;)
Nov 02 13:08:21 <DocScrutinizer> as they have no direct connection
Nov 02 13:08:31 <Sicelo> http://eu.gshellz.org/~sicelo/rc.iptables_ext_int
Nov 02 13:08:57 <Sicelo> run that as root like rc.iptables_ext_int eth0 wlan0
Nov 02 13:09:04 <DocScrutinizer> rly: people who got an idea of what routers are made for ;-P
Nov 02 13:09:32 <Sicelo> i copied that from tldp.org :)
Nov 02 13:10:16 * Sicelo sees the next question.. how to make N900 reach internet :P
Nov 02 13:10:34 <Sicelo> anybody has idea why i didn't get the Nokia update?
Nov 02 13:11:04 <rly> What exactly is a bridge conceptually?
Nov 02 13:11:22 <DocScrutinizer> rly: if you live in A-town, lemon-alley, do you think you granny in B-town will find you in the lemon-alley in B-town at house# 45 when you live in A-town lemon-alley 45?
Nov 02 13:11:35 <Sicelo> rly, just run that script
Nov 02 13:11:57 <jonwil> bah, I cant get gdb to debug tutorial-eal-bin :(
Nov 02 13:12:13 <Sicelo> as i said before, you can then tweak your setup once it works.. not before
Nov 02 13:12:34 <DocScrutinizer> rly: I 
Nov 02 13:13:56 <rly> DocScrutinizer: no
Nov 02 13:13:58 <Sicelo> rc.iptables_ext_int eth0 wlan0
Nov 02 13:14:04 <Sicelo> as root
Nov 02 13:14:10 <Sicelo> on your laptop
Nov 02 13:14:19 <DocScrutinizer> I *strongly* discourage you to run identical separate subnets locally, as in "my router connects to workstation 192.168.1.66 via cable. Now I create a adhoc net 192.168.1.x to reach that station via a laptop"
Nov 02 13:15:06 <DocScrutinizer> as you *never* will get that sorted, with the experise about networking you got
Nov 02 13:16:11 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I read Tanenbaum's networking book a long time ago.
Nov 02 13:16:45 <Sicelo> rly, so what do u get from running the script?
Nov 02 13:17:02 <DocScrutinizer> rly: standard gateway is where all traffic to *other* networks gets routed to, if your adhoc has 192.168.1.x then the connect to wour workstation on 192.168.1.66 *never* gets roued to standard gateway and rhus never reaches the destination
Nov 02 13:18:10 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I have no idea which point you are trying to make.
Nov 02 13:18:24 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, THAT's the problem
Nov 02 13:19:21 <rly> I currently don't experience any problem except that it would be useful to be able to connect directly from a machine on network X to a machine on network Y (the phone).
Nov 02 13:19:55 <rly> So, if a bridge between X and Y on the laptop does that, well, then it's problem solved.
Nov 02 13:20:03 <Sicelo> :/
Nov 02 13:20:20 <rly> Sicelo: yes, you just said how.
Nov 02 13:20:36 <rly> I just don't see which problem DocScrutinizer sees.
Nov 02 13:20:38 <DocScrutinizer> rly: how THE F* shall it connect directly when it's not connected directly??
Nov 02 13:21:04 <rly> DocScrutinizer: by 'directly', I mean from a UI point of view.
Nov 02 13:21:31 <rly> DocScrutinizer: so, if I do ssh 10.<> on the 192.<> machine, that it goes there, apparently via bridging.
Nov 02 13:21:33 <DocScrutinizer> so "directly" as in "I ping 8.8.8.8 'directly'" ?
Nov 02 13:21:49 <rly> Yes
Nov 02 13:22:05 <rly> If that's not possible, then the Internet sucks.
Nov 02 13:22:11 * DocScrutinizer wonders what's not "directly" in internet/TCP then
Nov 02 13:22:42 <Sicelo> rly: DocScrutinizer is right. heh, internet sucks indeed, coz of NAT, which is what that script does. even Tannenbaum states that :P
Nov 02 13:22:55 <DocScrutinizer> anyway no router ever can manage colliding IP addr ranges on physically separate interfaces
Nov 02 13:23:08 <rly> DocScrutinizer: but they are not colliding.
Nov 02 13:23:25 <DocScrutinizer> ooh, they don't ??
Nov 02 13:23:32 * Sicelo goes afk a while
Nov 02 13:23:35 <rly> DocScrutinizer: no
Nov 02 13:23:44 <rly> They could be, but they aren't.
Nov 02 13:23:56 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-11-02 13:58:47] <Sicelo> why do u have interest in the 192.. network?
Nov 02 13:23:57 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-11-02 13:58:59] <rly> Sicelo: because that's my work station.
Nov 02 13:24:21 <rly> DocScrutinizer: yes, one of them is 192.<>.
Nov 02 13:24:25 * DocScrutinizer follows Sicelo
Nov 02 13:24:30 <rly> DocScrutinizer: and the laptop is also on 192.<>.
Nov 02 13:24:37 <rly> DocScrutinizer: and I wanted the phone to also be there.
Nov 02 13:25:22 <DocScrutinizer> then you have to connect your phone to the physical network your other machines are using! ooh wait, N900 has no ethernet plug
Nov 02 13:25:39 <DocScrutinizer> so you need a NEW subnet
Nov 02 13:25:54 <DocScrutinizer> and a bridge connects *diferent* subnets
Nov 02 13:26:18 <DocScrutinizer> well, that's incorrect, but best you never mind
Nov 02 13:26:30 <rly> So, if I have the bridge, what can I do with it?
Nov 02 13:26:55 <DocScrutinizer> kytesurf?
Nov 02 13:27:13 <DocScrutinizer> really, I got a froodle here, what can I do with it?
Nov 02 13:28:02 <DocScrutinizer> GET YOR ADHOC WORKING! DON'T USE SAME SUBNET IP AS ON ANY OTHER OF YOUR LOCAL NETWORKS!
Nov 02 13:28:30 <rly> DocScrutinizer: It has been working for a long time now.
Nov 02 13:28:35 <rly> DocScrutinizer: no need to yell.
Nov 02 13:28:45 <DocScrutinizer> oncw you got a working adhoc, we will deal with bridging, forwarding, routing, whatever
Nov 02 13:29:04 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I have that for over 15 minutes already.
Nov 02 13:29:12 <DocScrutinizer> I see
Nov 02 13:29:16 <DocScrutinizer> and bye
Nov 02 13:34:40 <DocScrutinizer> man 8 route
Nov 02 13:38:51 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Bridge+Firewall.html
Nov 02 13:39:40 <DocScrutinizer> you can bridge to the adhoc "network interface card NIC"
Nov 02 13:40:16 <DocScrutinizer> however I guess it'S way simpler to route to a destinct subnet
Nov 02 13:43:11 <DocScrutinizer> so your laptop behaves like a router, with your 192.168.x.x. wired network being the "upstream" network and your adhoc network on a diferent subnet addr and the laptop forwarding and doing addr translation for data from adhoc
Nov 02 13:44:26 <lardman> Anyone know of an easy way of extracting kernel modules from the kernel build tree and preferably placing them in the correct relative directories in some other location?
Nov 02 13:44:43 <lardman> I could write a script to do it, just wondering if there's already one extant?
Nov 02 13:45:40 <derf> Isn't that what make modules_install is for?
Nov 02 13:45:44 <derf> Or are you talking about something else?
Nov 02 13:45:59 <lardman> no, that is what I'm talking about - can it accept a root directory?
Nov 02 13:46:11 <lardman> perhaps it can, I'll have a look see
Nov 02 13:47:45 <derf> There's an INSTALL_MOD_PATH variable.
Nov 02 13:47:53 <derf> Presumably that could be overridden somewhere.
Nov 02 13:48:26 <derf> Or MODLIB (which is INSTALL_MOD_PATH with lib/modules/$(KERNELRELEASE) appended)
Nov 02 13:48:31 <lardman> ah yes, apparently it can be set on the command line before the make command
Nov 02 13:48:44 <lardman> make INSTALL_MOD_PATH=/some/writable/directory modules_install
Nov 02 13:48:49 <lardman> cheers derf
Nov 02 13:48:54 <derf> np
Nov 02 13:55:07 <jonwil> duh, helps if I switch to armel :P
Nov 02 13:57:20 <ruskie> lol
Nov 02 14:02:29 * SpeedEvil reboots into PR1.4.
Nov 02 14:02:41 <DocScrutinizer> wut?
Nov 02 14:02:46 <SpeedEvil> diginotar
Nov 02 14:02:49 <rly> If I follow the instructions here, I see that it is downloading some file, but it just keeps at 0%. http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU
Nov 02 14:02:50 <DocScrutinizer> 1.3.1
Nov 02 14:02:51 <SpeedEvil> diginotar--
Nov 02 14:03:06 <DocScrutinizer> it's actually called 1.4 now? o.O
Nov 02 14:03:08 * jonwil wonders when the CSSU bits for the digitnotar fix will drop
Nov 02 14:03:18 <SpeedEvil> Dunno.
Nov 02 14:03:31 <SpeedEvil> It's called 1.4 in my head.
Nov 02 14:03:39 <DocScrutinizer> ahh :-)
Nov 02 14:03:47 * SpeedEvil mehs.
Nov 02 14:03:58 <SpeedEvil> I was pondering applying for free solar panels, and they pull teh scheme.
Nov 02 14:05:07 <jonwil> The patch seems to have updated the various maemosec* packages
Nov 02 14:05:52 <SpeedEvil> 330K though, which was IIRC about the size of the cert file
Nov 02 14:06:51 <rly> I How can I get the webbrowser to download the stupid http://repository.maemo.org/community-testing/community-testing-fremantle.install file?
Nov 02 14:07:02 <rly> Everything else works, I can even use Youtube to my surprise.
Nov 02 14:07:21 <rly> It should open with HAM, but it doesn't.
Nov 02 14:13:24 <jonwil> looks like 2 different base packages were updated in this patch, maemo-security-certman and maemo-security-certman-applet
Nov 02 14:13:35 <jonwil> The first one claims its LGPL
Nov 02 14:13:41 <jonwil> the second claims its "nokia proprietary"
Nov 02 14:13:51 <DocScrutinizer> rly: why should webbrowser download that file? why is it stupid? why should it open in HAM?
Nov 02 14:14:09 <rly> DocScrutinizer: because that's what that website literally states.
Nov 02 14:14:42 <DocScrutinizer> which website? I've not seen any website URL in your three posts
Nov 02 14:15:15 <rly> My ssh is also not working. I did useradd myuser; passwd myuser; ssh myuser@<rightip> and inputted the right password, but it just happily claims that it is the wrong password.
Nov 02 14:15:28 <rly> DocScrutinizer: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU
Nov 02 14:15:34 <jonwil> bah, my browser-neteal test doesn't work
Nov 02 14:15:38 <jonwil> just displays a black screen
Nov 02 14:15:40 <gomiam> DocScrutinizer: perhaps... http://repository.maemo.org/community-testing/community-testing-fremantle.install 
Nov 02 14:15:49 <rly> DocScrutinizer: "Hildon Application Manager (HAM) will launch and begin processing (be patient)"
Nov 02 14:15:58 <gomiam> DocScrutinizer: at least that's the link rly provided
Nov 02 14:16:23 <jonwil> possibly I am missing some important GTK stuff
Nov 02 14:16:35 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I did provide the link, btw, just look in your scrollback.
Nov 02 14:16:56 <jonwil> will post to the mailing list, maybe there is someone there who has guru knowledge of gtk and hildon and can tell me what I am doing wrong
Nov 02 14:17:03 <DocScrutinizer> rly: I'm not going to scan scrollback for *maybe* related stuff
Nov 02 14:17:28 <rly> DocScrutinizer: that's OK. It was just FYI.
Nov 02 14:17:50 <DocScrutinizer> also what in >>"Hildon Application Manager (HAM) will launch and begin processing (be patient)"<< makes you think you shall make the webbrowser download that install file?
Nov 02 14:18:17 <rly> DocScrutinizer: it says 'click in the install testing button above'.
Nov 02 14:18:22 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I did that too.
Nov 02 14:18:34 <rly> DocScrutinizer: the same thing, downloading the file and stopping at 0% happens.
Nov 02 14:19:46 <DocScrutinizer> so, do you think you could phrase a proper bug ticket suitable problem description? along the line "action to reproduce: ... expected outcome: ... actual outcome: ..." ?
Nov 02 14:20:50 <gomiam> rly: it's just a suspicion, but... may you have some apt* process still running from previous installs?
Nov 02 14:21:35 <rly> Type http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |  press enter | navigate to green icon | hit screen at position of green icon | wait | observe in downloads a 0% download file named community<blah>.
Nov 02 14:22:31 <vesa> i get a .install file
Nov 02 14:22:32 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, so it's not launching HAM. 
Nov 02 14:22:40 <rly> gomiam: I do get a NO_PUBKEY warning when I do apt-get update.
Nov 02 14:22:44 <gomiam> rly: it's interesting... it seems to download fine for me, all 223 bytes of it.
Nov 02 14:22:44 <vesa> oooh, on the device. n/m
Nov 02 14:23:17 <rly> gomiam: it downloads fine on my computer also.
Nov 02 14:23:28 <rly> gomiam: likely wget on the phone will also work.
Nov 02 14:23:30 <DocScrutinizer> are you sure you're using the default browser?
Nov 02 14:23:37 <rly> DocScrutinizer: yes
Nov 02 14:23:52 <rly> DocScrutinizer: it says "Web".
Nov 02 14:23:53 <gomiam> rly: as it seems to be just a new catalogue, you may want to forget about it and set it up by hand ;)
Nov 02 14:23:54 <DocScrutinizer> the problem is not the download
Nov 02 14:24:06 <rly> The problem is me. :)
Nov 02 14:24:12 <rly> Just a guess.
Nov 02 14:24:23 <rly> No, I think I followed the instructions correctly.
Nov 02 14:24:36 <DocScrutinizer> no, the problem is HAM doesn't start on the file
Nov 02 14:25:04 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I also said that the download didn't complete.
Nov 02 14:25:05 <DocScrutinizer> can you start HAM from app launcher?
Nov 02 14:25:17 <DocScrutinizer> rly: that's probably bogus
Nov 02 14:25:39 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I am in HAM.
Nov 02 14:26:00 <DocScrutinizer> though it *might* be related to download destination storage not available (full, mounted readonly, whatever)
Nov 02 14:26:05 <rly> DocScrutinizer: it says there is a new maemo update.
Nov 02 14:26:16 <rly> DocScrutinizer: with some flashing yellow thing.
Nov 02 14:26:34 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, that's the problem then I guess
Nov 02 14:26:34 <rly> Then it said that some catalogi failed.
Nov 02 14:27:05 <rly> Nokia-applications, Software updates for Nokia-systems, Ovi and maemo.org.
Nov 02 14:27:25 <rly> So, how to get those in working order?
Nov 02 14:27:30 <DocScrutinizer> if you want to isntall CSSU you probably should make HAM ignore the 1.3.1 update *for now*
Nov 02 14:28:09 <rly> I basically just want ssh to work.
Nov 02 14:28:26 <rly> But it simply won't let me in.
Nov 02 14:28:28 <jonwil> I have ssh and I dont have cssu :)
Nov 02 14:28:32 <rly> Even ssh localhost doesn't work.
Nov 02 14:28:33 <DocScrutinizer> how's that related?
Nov 02 14:28:53 <rly> Well, assuming the whole platform was broken at release, someone might have fixed a bug?
Nov 02 14:29:30 <DocScrutinizer> please get rid of your habit to make assumptions
Nov 02 14:29:43 <rly> OK
Nov 02 14:29:58 <DocScrutinizer> ssh works here
Nov 02 14:30:11 <DocScrutinizer> on all PR releases and CSSU
Nov 02 14:30:41 <rly> DocScrutinizer: with what user do you login?
Nov 02 14:30:42 <DocScrutinizer> but only tested for existing users, I.E root and user. I doubt useradd will work
Nov 02 14:31:21 <rly> Why wouldn't it work via useradd?
Nov 02 14:31:36 <DocScrutinizer> useradd itself is probably untested
Nov 02 14:32:52 <DocScrutinizer> on installing ssh pkg you got asked to set a root password afaik
Nov 02 14:33:22 <DocScrutinizer> you should be able to ssh root@<n900> and use that password
Nov 02 14:33:24 <rly> I can run login and then login as root with some password then.
Nov 02 14:33:55 <DocScrutinizer> also ssh root@localhost
Nov 02 14:34:10 <rly> I disabled root logins, but OK.
Nov 02 14:35:30 <DocScrutinizer> well, I dunno what you mean by "I disabled root logins", but anyway user has no password and ssh user@<n900> thus will fail, as ssh without pw doesn't work
Nov 02 14:35:53 <rly> DocScrutinizer: can't I set a password for user?
Nov 02 14:35:58 <DocScrutinizer> sure
Nov 02 14:36:21 <DocScrutinizer> if you're root you do #>passwd user
Nov 02 14:36:47 <rly> Ok, locally it works now.
Nov 02 14:38:29 <rly> DocScrutinizer: ping 10.42.43.64 from the laptop doesn't work now?
Nov 02 14:39:00 <rly> DocScrutinizer: never mind, it forgot the connection after a reboot.
Nov 02 14:39:08 <rly> Another 'useful' feature.
Nov 02 14:39:27 <rly> It seems Nokia can use some usability people.
Nov 02 14:39:59 <DocScrutinizer> you can't autoconnect to adhoc
Nov 02 14:40:22 <rly> Remotely it now also works.
Nov 02 14:40:27 <DocScrutinizer> at least you don't want to
Nov 02 14:40:42 <rly> Because it drains the battery?
Nov 02 14:41:06 <DocScrutinizer> because on adhoc nobody is sending beacons
Nov 02 14:41:23 <DocScrutinizer> so you basically dunno if any adhoc is available
Nov 02 14:42:37 <DocScrutinizer> your device would connect to your adhoc network located in new york, even when you boot the device in moscow
Nov 02 14:43:21 <DocScrutinizer> (simplified picture)
Nov 02 14:44:17 <DocScrutinizer> so who needs the usability people now?
Nov 02 14:44:36 <DocScrutinizer> (another assumption you took)
Nov 02 14:48:14 <rly> DocScrutinizer: well, the contacts app doesn't allow editing of notes by clicking on them.
Nov 02 14:48:21 <DocScrutinizer> not saying everything is just optimal on fremantle, but I suggest prior to making assumptions and blaming something a bug or flaw or poorly thought concept you ask if there's maybe a reason it is the way it is
Nov 02 14:48:26 <rly> I still get this, btw. W: GPG error: https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com ./ Release: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY ADB4438160A655EF
Nov 02 14:48:34 <rly> DocScrutinizer: you are entirely right.
Nov 02 14:48:48 <rly> or 'completely'
Nov 02 14:50:10 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, it's a warning
Nov 02 14:51:12 <DocScrutinizer> and I dunno what's your problem with contacts notes. I seem to remember I once got annoyed they won't scroll in contacts view, you have to edit the contact to get scrolling on notes
Nov 02 14:52:03 <rly> Also, if you want to add a field like 'Notes', you cannot just press n to go to it.
Nov 02 14:52:10 <DocScrutinizer> anyway in contacts view I think there's little that can get edited by simply clicking on it
Nov 02 14:52:16 <Corsac> DocScrutinizer: btw, about birthday calendar, I have a weird bug that people without birthday all (or so) appear to have a birthday on november 30th
Nov 02 14:52:26 <Corsac> (so scrolling to november in the calendar is dead slow...)
Nov 02 14:52:27 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I solved the PUBKEY problem.
Nov 02 14:52:55 <rly> Is there also a way to remotely control the n900 to see the same stuff as on the phone window?
Nov 02 14:53:08 <DocScrutinizer> vnc
Nov 02 14:53:12 <rly> So, not just an ssh session, but basically a viewport.
Nov 02 14:53:55 <Corsac> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11639 haah I already reported it last year
Nov 02 14:53:56 <povbot`> 04Bug 11639: birthday-less contacts have a birthday appearing in calendar on nov 30
Nov 02 14:54:22 <DocScrutinizer> never seen that
Nov 02 14:54:38 <DocScrutinizer> your contacts database might be corrupt
Nov 02 14:54:41 <rly> DocScrutinizer: how do I get rid of the 'failed catalogi'?
Nov 02 14:54:51 <Corsac> yeah maybe, but a quick investigation on it doesn't reveal anything
Nov 02 14:55:13 <Corsac> but maybe backuping then restoring the backup would help
Nov 02 14:55:13 <rly> I start HAM, do 'Download' and it says that basically all of the updates failed.
Nov 02 14:55:26 <rly> apt-get update works fine on the device.
Nov 02 14:56:13 <DocScrutinizer> rly: edit and fix the parameters of the failed catalog, if they are incorrect. If it's just a problem of the catalog server, then just wait, the issue is commonly known and of transient nature
Nov 02 14:57:12 <rly> Why don't they put the catalog server on some bigger pipe then?
Nov 02 14:57:21 <rly> Or via bittorrent, etc.
Nov 02 14:57:30 <DocScrutinizer> if it's a general connectivity problem, *e.g. when using a non-standard internet conection*, then see wiki USB-networking
Nov 02 14:57:36 <rly> Now it works.
Nov 02 14:58:13 <DocScrutinizer> http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking#Using_USB_networking_for_Maemo_applications
Nov 02 14:58:55 <nid0> tbh, pipes dont get much bigger than the one nokia's repositories are on
Nov 02 14:59:54 <fredddd> Could anyone guide me with the following? I would like to synchronise my calendar, task list and contacts to my server, and be able to connect my N900 to it (right now, to give an example, I can link my N900 with Google Sync through ActiveSync, and have that done). But I would like to host it on my own Debian powered server. Anyone have any idea where to go with this?
Nov 02 15:07:02 <rly> Isn't angry birds available for the n900? If so, how to install it?
Nov 02 15:07:17 <rly> I just want to see how well it runs.
Nov 02 15:08:37 <nid0> its on the device by default
Nov 02 15:09:15 <SpeedEvil> It's not on PR1.3
Nov 02 15:09:22 <SpeedEvil> maybe 1.2?
Nov 02 15:09:31 <SpeedEvil> It was downloadable at one point, not now though.
Nov 02 15:10:24 <rly> http://store.ovi.com/content/23158
Nov 02 15:10:46 <rly> I said 'install', then it downloaded something and I got dropped in HAM.
Nov 02 15:10:51 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: might be in VANILLA
Nov 02 15:10:55 <SpeedEvil> hmm
Nov 02 15:10:59 <rly> Then, no indication as to what happened.
Nov 02 15:13:53 <rly> Ok, now it did something.
Nov 02 15:28:54 <rly> Can I zoom arbitrarily much in some way?
Nov 02 15:40:17 <rly> Yes, I can.
Nov 02 15:49:59 <merlin_1991> rly: whenever you install something over such a install link that opens ham you have to wait forever
Nov 02 15:50:10 <merlin_1991> because it adds the repo if not there
Nov 02 15:50:15 <merlin_1991> then runs an apt-get update
Nov 02 15:50:29 <merlin_1991> then ham does it's ham parsing of the package list
Nov 02 15:50:34 <merlin_1991> and after that it finally installs
Nov 02 15:51:21 * FIQ has realised that VNC is actually useful
Nov 02 15:51:40 <FIQ> would prefer X-forwarding, but no proper rightclick :(
Nov 02 15:52:16 <rly> merlin1991: do you mean 'long' by forever, or 'forever'?
Nov 02 15:52:20 <FIQ> if just it was a keycode to access rclick...
Nov 02 15:52:33 <rly> The zooming UI is pretty nice.
Nov 02 15:52:39 <FIQ> so i could throw it in hardware-wise
Nov 02 15:52:45 <rly> I am not sure whether the stuff that is done on a HTC is better or not.
Nov 02 15:53:02 <FIQ> er
Nov 02 15:53:12 <FIQ> s/hardware/keyboard/
Nov 02 15:53:24 <rly> I think an on screen keyboard is much less convenient, though.
Nov 02 15:53:39 <merlin1991> rly well it depends on how many repos you have, with only extras + ovi it's long
Nov 02 15:53:49 <merlin1991> with extras - devel enabled it feels like a lifetime
Nov 02 15:54:32 <FIQ> rly: that wasn't my point
Nov 02 15:54:41 <neal> I uploaded a package to the fremantle package builder.  Is there a place where I can see its build status?  I don't see it, e.g., here http://maemo.org/packages/repository/builds/fremantle_extras-devel_free_source/all/
Nov 02 15:55:18 <FIQ> merlin: indeed, that's why i don't use HAM
Nov 02 15:55:33 <rly> How do I get 'all' the packages available?
Nov 02 15:55:55 <rly> I only have a few lines in my current /etc/apt/sources.list
Nov 02 15:57:16 <merlin1991> rly the default sources should be just fine if you're looking for a stable environment, if you like breaking things you can check the maemo-wiki for extras-devel
Nov 02 15:57:31 <merlin1991> there are far more packages, but also a lot are somehow broken
Nov 02 15:58:20 <merlin1991> ~build-status
Nov 02 15:58:38 <merlin1991> neal: I know there was some sort of current build status webpage, but I forgot the link
Nov 02 15:58:41 <FIQ> ~build-status
Nov 02 15:58:53 <FIQ> w/e
Nov 02 15:59:23 <rly> What's the 'best' map application? There was some new one, IIRC.
Nov 02 16:00:13 <neal> rly: monav
Nov 02 16:00:19 <merlin1991> neal:  https://garage.maemo.org/extras-assistant/index.php
Nov 02 16:00:21 <neal> rly: off-line vector maps
Nov 02 16:00:30 <neal> rly: It's excellent :)
Nov 02 16:00:35 <merlin1991> apparently all build queues are empty
Nov 02 16:01:03 <neal> merlin1991: hmm.
Nov 02 16:01:18 <merlin1991> you could ask X-Fade
Nov 02 16:03:32 <neal> merlin1991: Thanks for your help.
Nov 02 16:03:41 <rly> neal: is that in the default repos?
Nov 02 16:05:46 <rly> Is there some easier way to input a large sequence of numbers?
Nov 02 16:06:06 <rly> Holding the blue button is inconvenient.
Nov 02 16:07:23 <rly> Why is WhatsApp not available anymore for the N900?
Nov 02 16:11:27 <Sicelo> double tap the blue icon. it 'locks' then u can type all of the blue symbols without using said button
Nov 02 16:11:29 <rly> neal: I go to http://monav.openstreetmap.de/ click on the n900 link, but it doesn't download the whole file.
Nov 02 16:12:02 <neal> I don't know what to say, sorry
Nov 02 16:12:34 <Sicelo> what happens when u click that?
Nov 02 16:13:01 <rly> Sicelo: it asks whether I want to open it or save it.
Nov 02 16:13:07 <rly> Sicelo: I say open it with HAM.
Nov 02 16:13:25 <rly> Sicelo: the download pane shows 0%.
Nov 02 16:13:40 <rly> Sicelo: it seems the whole 'download a file' functionality is broken.
Nov 02 16:13:46 <Sicelo> try save, then dpkg -i your_file as root in terminal
Nov 02 16:14:03 <rly> Sicelo: and any way to get the downloading files to work?
Nov 02 16:14:12 <rly> -the
Nov 02 16:14:49 <Sicelo> u can't download files? 0.o
Nov 02 16:14:58 <rly> Sicelo: just saving it also doesn't work.
Nov 02 16:15:05 <rly> Sicelo: wget works fine.
Nov 02 16:15:15 <rly> Downloading 'apps' also works fine.
Nov 02 16:15:25 <rly> Browsing Youtube also works fine.
Nov 02 16:17:09 <rly> Downloading it via opera also works.
Nov 02 16:17:20 <rly> It's just the Web application that doesn't work.
Nov 02 16:17:30 <rly> How can I see which version I have of that?
Nov 02 16:21:28 <SpeedEvil> https://bbyopen.com/2010/11/maylong-android-tablet-more-versatile-than-you-think
Nov 02 16:21:54 <Sicelo> not necessary. u can't have your own version
Nov 02 16:24:40 <rly> neal: so, how do I get western-europe loaded into the device for monav?
Nov 02 16:24:56 <rly> neal: there is germany, but the Netherlands is missing for example.
Nov 02 16:38:05 <neal> rly: So far, I've just used germany and france
Nov 02 16:54:03 <crashanddie> you've used germany and france?
Nov 02 16:54:05 <crashanddie> You bastard!
Nov 02 17:25:39 <luke-jr> crashanddie: well, Germany and France aren't really good for anything…
Nov 02 17:49:15 <rly> luke-jr: nuclear power and BMWs.
Nov 02 18:13:53 <Sicelo> hmm, 58.0M free on /
Nov 02 18:27:38 <x29a> Sicelo: im down to 48
Nov 02 18:29:01 <DocScrutinizer> is it just me, or is the S/N going thru the floor here lately?
Nov 02 18:29:23 <bindi> s/n? :<
Nov 02 18:29:35 <DocScrutinizer> signal/noise
Nov 02 18:29:54 * DocScrutinizer feels like watching twitter
Nov 02 18:31:27 <DocScrutinizer> so actually S/N goes thru the ceiling
Nov 02 18:31:47 <DocScrutinizer> err, scratch that
Nov 02 18:33:16 <bindi> SNR :(
Nov 02 18:41:04 <vdv> hi all
Nov 02 18:41:35 <NIN101> hi
Nov 02 18:42:47 <vdv> do i understand correctly, that in order to write qt apps for maemo i have following options: 1) maemo sdk + qt for maemo; 2) Qt SDK from nokia; 3) MADDE ?
Nov 02 18:43:10 <vdv> err, ugly formulated question
Nov 02 18:43:22 <vdv> but hope still understandable
Nov 02 18:49:09 <vdv> did i missed some answer to the question above?
Nov 02 18:53:25 <NIN101> no. but afaik that's about right vdv. 
Nov 02 19:18:19 <MasseR> That scared me, n900 just said that maemos extras repository can't be reached
Nov 02 19:18:57 <MasseR> But even then, after yesterdays update, I can't seem to lock on to gps. Anyone else having problems with it?
Nov 02 19:23:16 <DocScrutinizer> MasseR: how are repos related to GPS now?
Nov 02 19:23:49 <MasseR> DocScrutinizer: Two unrelated things. 
Nov 02 19:24:13 <MasseR> DocScrutinizer: Other than both have manifested after the update (altough I think it found the repository with a second try)
Nov 02 19:24:33 <DocScrutinizer> you'll find GPS as well on second try ;-D
Nov 02 19:25:13 <MasseR> Well I didn't find it after the 10th try ;)
Nov 02 19:25:26 <neal> how do I prevent a package from building for i386 using the autobuilder?
Nov 02 19:25:38 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, maybe get a SIM, get better open sky view
Nov 02 19:26:00 <MasseR> SIM? And I was under the sky
Nov 02 19:26:33 <DocScrutinizer> yes, SIM. As in "use GSM for A-GPS"
Nov 02 19:26:41 <DocScrutinizer> ~gsm-agps
Nov 02 19:26:42 <infobot> i guess rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP
Nov 02 19:27:06 <DocScrutinizer> or just wait for 10 min to get a first fix
Nov 02 19:27:16 <MasseR> DocScrutinizer: Usually I get a fix in seconds
Nov 02 19:27:55 <DocScrutinizer> so what can I say?
Nov 02 19:28:35 <MasseR> And apparently I can't even get the gsm location o.O
Nov 02 19:28:48 <DocScrutinizer> the 1.3.1 update is not suspicious to interfere with GPS in any way
Nov 02 19:30:52 * SpeedEvil tries.
Nov 02 19:31:06 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, if you really mean what you wrote, then you got your explanation why GPS doesn't get a fix in 10s. A-GPS relies on a rough idea of where you currently are, which is delivered (and also might get spoiled) by info from GSM
Nov 02 19:32:06 * SpeedEvil waits for fix.
Nov 02 19:32:13 <SpeedEvil> Also check your time isn't off.
Nov 02 19:32:17 <SpeedEvil> It doesn't like that.
Nov 02 19:32:22 <DocScrutinizer> indeed
Nov 02 19:33:04 <MasseR> DocScrutinizer: "time isn't off", meaning?
Nov 02 19:33:07 <MasseR> How much off is off
Nov 02 19:33:08 <DocScrutinizer> time or GSM location guess being off can cause A-GPS to fail completely and never get any fix
Nov 02 19:33:22 <DocScrutinizer> for time, some seconds
Nov 02 19:33:23 <SpeedEvil> More than a few minutes.
Nov 02 19:33:34 <SpeedEvil> more than that.
Nov 02 19:33:37 <DocScrutinizer> for GSM location some 1000 km
Nov 02 19:33:39 <MasseR> I have automatic updating
Nov 02 19:34:10 <Sicelo> your operator might not send correct time, like mine :P
Nov 02 19:34:22 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, summer time :-P
Nov 02 19:34:23 <MasseR> I got some location after changing supl.nokia.com to supl.google.com
Nov 02 19:34:35 <DocScrutinizer> yup, that too
Nov 02 19:34:42 <DocScrutinizer> soory I forgot about that
Nov 02 19:35:48 <DocScrutinizer> actually it can help sometimes to DISable a-gps support
Nov 02 19:36:43 <MasseR> Don't tell me it tries to first get the agps, and unless it gets that, it won't even try the satellites?
Nov 02 19:36:49 <DocScrutinizer> you should get a cold first fix in max 10 min after that, on clear open sky, and subsequent first fixes will be in the sub-minute range
Nov 02 19:37:17 <MasseR> Oh and, now even the satellite-gps works
Nov 02 19:37:18 <DocScrutinizer> MasseR: no, it sometimes locks up on bogis a-gps hints
Nov 02 19:37:35 <DocScrutinizer> bogus*
Nov 02 19:38:59 <DocScrutinizer> as in "won't try to find sattelites in positions they are supposed to be at 20:00 local time, when system / supl tells me to look for them at their 16:00 positions"
Nov 02 19:40:14 <MasseR> Se if n900 thinks I'm more or less 500km to the north, it fails
Nov 02 19:40:39 <DocScrutinizer> yes, though I think it's more like 5000km than 500km
Nov 02 19:40:58 <DocScrutinizer> maybe 1500km are enough
Nov 02 19:41:06 <DocScrutinizer> ask SpeedEvil - he's the GPS expert
Nov 02 19:42:30 <SpeedEvil> MasseR: The first level of lock is based on hich satellites are visible, and their expected velocities to the user.
Nov 02 19:43:19 <SpeedEvil> They are in 12 hour orbits, so they don't move that fast across the sky - 30 min eitehr way doesn't make a major difference, nor does a few degrees error in position (a few hundred km)
Nov 02 19:43:35 <SpeedEvil> Outside this, the GPS can be looking in the wrong 'place' for each satellite, and not find it.
Nov 02 19:44:48 <DocScrutinizer> of course it can look all possible locations, but that takes *time* and you won't want to "waste" receivers (actually correlators) for that when you think you *know* where to look
Nov 02 19:45:09 <DocScrutinizer> think you know = a-gps
Nov 02 19:45:25 <SpeedEvil> If it 'knows' where those locations are - based on time and position - and they're sufficiently wrong - it may not bother looking in the right ones.
Nov 02 19:45:46 <SpeedEvil> This can be the right strategy - it will get lock even under relatively deep sky cover.
Nov 02 19:46:13 <DocScrutinizer> yeah
Nov 02 19:46:22 <MasseR> SpeedEvil: That's actually surprisingly interesting. Thank you
Nov 02 19:46:34 <DocScrutinizer> or it fails completely when your assumptions about time and continent are wrong
Nov 02 19:47:18 <SpeedEvil> 'place' is not a geographic place as such - it's a place in the 2D space of satellite number, and doppler offset of frequency.
Nov 02 19:47:32 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Nov 02 19:47:49 <SpeedEvil> This 'place' is generated by a knowledge of the orbits of the sats, and the current time.
Nov 02 19:48:15 <DocScrutinizer> and the "frequency" each sat uses
Nov 02 19:49:55 <DocScrutinizer> most interesting detail: "number of visible sats" in those diagnostic displays usually is the *calculated* theoretically visible sats for your location and time, not the actually "seen" ones
Nov 02 19:50:43 <DocScrutinizer> I.E. it looks for those sats
Nov 02 19:51:33 <DocScrutinizer> used sats are those that are "seen"
Nov 02 19:52:35 <DocScrutinizer> (unless they are too many so the GPS chip decides to ignore a few of the seen ones)
Nov 02 19:56:43 <DocScrutinizer> aaah, and a-gps is just to deliver those info about visible sats to your device in no time
Nov 02 19:58:00 <DocScrutinizer> that'S why I said it sometimes may help to disable a-gps. You won't feed the chip with wrong ideas what / where to look for, and so a fix may take longer but can't get spoiled by wrong location or time
Nov 02 20:33:54 <rly> How can I see data transfer statistics?
Nov 02 20:36:28 <Sicelo> elaborate ... u mean rate, volume, or even whole records covering a number of days?
Nov 02 20:36:56 <rly> Sicelo: all
Nov 02 20:37:24 <rly> Sicelo: or if not available in some easy way, as many from that list as possible.
Nov 02 20:37:53 <Sicelo> heh, dunno if there's better way to check transfer rate than iptraf
Nov 02 20:38:10 <Sicelo> as for the rest, there is NetStory iirc
Nov 02 20:39:07 <Sicelo> Settings > Phone keeps records for gprs/3g data volumes only
Nov 02 20:43:00 <DocScrutinizer> ifconfig
Nov 02 20:43:43 <DocScrutinizer> grep RX
Nov 02 20:44:50 <Sicelo> thought of that, but it doesn't survive reboots
Nov 02 20:49:58 <DocScrutinizer> sure, but it's one bit of that rather unspecified set of info the OP was asking for
Nov 02 20:53:44 <DocScrutinizer> :-) thanks for
Nov 02 20:53:59 <DocScrutinizer> IroN900:~# apt-cache search iptraf
Nov 02 20:54:00 <DocScrutinizer> network-monitor - IPTraf is a console-based network statistics utility
Nov 02 20:56:26 <Juozapas> is there anhy soft for system check? let say I want to buy used n900 and it will be nice to run some system check" software. I mean hardware
Nov 02 20:56:30 <Sicelo> :) can't see how to make it work with gprs0, but it works perfectly with ppp0 (my 3g dongle via hen)
Nov 02 20:58:12 <Sicelo> Juozapas: HealthCheck. of course, hardware is hardware, and can't be all tested 100% in software, imo
Nov 02 20:58:25 <Juozapas> k, thx
Nov 02 21:01:04 <Juozapas> a piece of metal just felt down from the back of my 900
Nov 02 21:02:06 <Juozapas> shape is like letter L and it goes close to camera slide. anyone had same experiece.
Nov 02 21:02:09 <Juozapas> ?
Nov 02 21:02:31 <Sicelo> heh, that's definitely not where Healthcheck can help. that's for our resident EE :)
Nov 02 21:02:58 <Juozapas> :!
Nov 02 21:03:02 <Juozapas> yeah..
Nov 02 21:03:15 <Juozapas> can I just remove that piece of metal?
Nov 02 21:03:49 <Sicelo> i have the L1-4 docs somewhere, but not sure where. ask DocScrutinizer 
Nov 02 21:04:23 <SpeedEvil> Juozapas: It's the spring for the dlider
Nov 02 21:04:23 <SpeedEvil> slider
Nov 02 21:04:27 <SpeedEvil> you may want to try to glue it back on.
Nov 02 21:04:45 <Juozapas> k
Nov 02 21:06:18 <SpeedEvil> ...
Nov 02 21:06:41 <SpeedEvil> 'Angry Birds downloads pass half-billion mark'
Nov 02 21:06:59 <SpeedEvil> I mean sure - 1 download isn't a user - but still.
Nov 02 21:09:56 <rly> I think Angry Birds is just the Pong of mobile phones.
Nov 02 21:10:11 <rly> Or the hello world of programming.
Nov 02 21:11:18 <Trewas> and most important of all, it will be the "next nokia" in finland!
Nov 02 21:11:55 <Trewas> it's unbelieveable how much hype they have been stacking up on game industry here
Nov 02 21:12:09 <rly> Trewas: one big bubble
Nov 02 21:12:42 <rly> Wasn't Angry Birds valued at $1B?
Nov 02 21:13:23 <rly> I would say it's more like a few $M.
Nov 02 21:14:46 <Trewas> billions, not just one, have been mentioned for rovio's stock market value... but of course they have to be very quick getting to there
Nov 02 21:15:31 <rly> Yes, they should _race_ to the stock market.
Nov 02 21:16:17 <rly> The cost to recreate what they did is orders of magnitude less than billions.
Nov 02 21:16:34 <rly> I only invest in companies where that is not the case.
Nov 02 21:16:45 <nid0> ofc it is, its just morons repeating the same mistakes of less than 15 years ago
Nov 02 21:17:08 <rly> A large part of it are likely some smart people that exit before the masses.
Nov 02 21:17:33 <rly> They will say how great it is, they will publish a 10 billion number in the Financial Times...
Nov 02 21:17:44 <rly> and then they sell :)
Nov 02 21:18:02 <rly> Same thing really holds for Facebook too.
Nov 02 21:18:08 <jacekowski> i don't understand it
Nov 02 21:18:18 <jacekowski> why people are buying it
Nov 02 21:18:22 <jacekowski> it's old concept
Nov 02 21:18:30 <jacekowski> i've seen games like that ages ago
Nov 02 21:18:34 <jacekowski> even dos based ones
Nov 02 21:18:51 <rly> jacekowski: perfect execution helps.
Nov 02 21:19:04 <rly> jacekowski: not anyone else on the platform also helps.
Nov 02 21:19:31 <rly> Now, as to why people would actually buy the extra maps? No idea.
Nov 02 21:20:27 <rly> Even Google only has a limited time business-plan.
Nov 02 21:21:14 <rly> It's good that they are now extending to other domains (like autonomous vehicles, since they will surely need something like that to stay alive).
Nov 02 21:48:07 <TTilus> my n900 just displayed updates icon and it says "Maemo 5" would be upgraded
Nov 02 21:48:34 <TTilus> any changelog or anything on whats coming up there
Nov 02 21:49:55 <TTilus> i now have 20.2010.36-2
Nov 02 21:50:53 <Spydemon> TTilus, I had the upgrade too
Nov 02 21:50:58 <Sicelo> just a security update. i still haven't got anything
Nov 02 21:51:17 <TTilus> ah, ok
Nov 02 21:53:42 <SpeedEvil> TTilus: diginotar--
Nov 02 21:53:49 <SpeedEvil> That's it.
Nov 02 22:54:30 <DocScrutinizer> see /topic
Nov 02 22:55:15 <DocScrutinizer> actually it adds / fixes sth with certificates plugin of settings too
Nov 02 22:55:43 <DocScrutinizer> not showing revoced certs as trusted anymore, or sth
Nov 02 22:56:07 <DocScrutinizer> revoked*
Nov 02 23:05:15 <jonwil> Thanks to someone posting a nice piece of MPL1.1 licensed code to the mailing list, I now have a working neteal test
Nov 02 23:05:30 <jonwil> that can load any URL you pass it and run it in a browser view
Nov 02 23:12:22 <SpeedEvil> :)
Nov 02 23:34:40 <Macer> your gray market coding?
Nov 02 23:34:53 <Macer> nokia should  just let the n900 be a free for all
Nov 02 23:34:56 <Macer> :) 
Nov 02 23:45:24 <UberNeo> Hi all .. I got the thread http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=79149 .. which also have the problem of dbus-daemon consuming the power .. but not much help
Nov 03 00:19:38 <UberNeo> SpeedEvil: I have got the output file for dbus-monitor ... shall i just look for text "method call sender"
Nov 03 00:22:18 <UberNeo> also strace of /usr/bin/Calendar is failing after the Segmentation Fault
Nov 03 00:24:50 <SpeedEvil> Not sure
Nov 03 00:49:26 <UberNeo> i just did "lsof -i" and the output is  http://pastebin.com/n7bxv0mH   .. here whenever I am killing 'mafw-dbus' .. its automatcally getting started again..
Nov 03 00:50:31 <UberNeo> same with 'camera-ui' , 'app-detec'  and dnsmasq .. all of them are getting restarted again .. even after i killed them
Nov 03 00:53:17 <merlin1991> UberNeo: afaik all those applications are stated with dsmetool
Nov 03 00:53:27 <merlin1991> look at it's command line options to stop the restarting 
Nov 03 00:54:51 <UberNeo> http://pastebin.com/TksD49jm -- ps -ef | grep mafw-dbus
Nov 03 01:29:12 <jonwil> For the curious, I just posted an analysis of the PR1.3.1 update and its changes at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=79400&page=12
Nov 03 01:44:08 <Macer> my n900 made it to cali
Nov 03 01:44:10 <Macer> that was faster than expected
Nov 03 01:44:38 <SpeedEvil> Cali?
Nov 03 01:44:51 * SpeedEvil wishes again he could get broken n900s.
Nov 03 01:44:52 <SpeedEvil> Meh.
Nov 03 02:32:03 <Juozapas> -sh: /home/user/.bashrc: line 5: cannot create /dev/cgroup/cpu/user/2526/tasks: nonexistent directory
Nov 03 02:32:06 <Juozapas> -sh: /home/user/.bashrc: line 5: cannot create /dev/cgroup/cpu/user/2526/notify_on_release: nonexistent directory
Nov 03 02:32:16 <Juozapas> did anyone receive this error ? just when u open terminal
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