**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 04 02:59:57 2011 Nov 04 03:00:11 tried hard reset, soft reset with no luck.. Nov 04 03:01:22 merlin1991: is it going on? :) Nov 04 03:01:38 kinda Nov 04 03:01:54 merlin1991: cool~ Nov 04 03:01:59 (what I meant is how to restore the /etc/passwd file) Nov 04 03:02:28 pawky: passwd ? Nov 04 03:02:44 ? Nov 04 03:03:04 ahh.. Nov 04 03:03:19 no.. doesnt work.. its the root password thats Fucked up... Nov 04 03:03:31 so i need to reset the /etc/passwd file.. :-( Nov 04 03:05:41 But maybe I should ask this in#harmattan? Nov 04 03:13:30 LaoLang_cool: well it compiled, but it doesn't run Nov 04 03:28:12 merlin1991: sorry, I disconnected again Nov 04 03:28:43 fcitx did compile, but it doesn't run (ui crashes) Nov 04 03:29:03 merlin1991: hmmm Nov 04 03:29:10 what about sdcv? Nov 04 03:29:11 I'll have a look at sdcv tomorrow Nov 04 03:29:33 it's past 4 am here, I gotta catch some sleep :) Nov 04 03:29:57 merlin1991: thank you very much! My email is vanopen AT gmail DOT com, if I'm not here, please send it to me Nov 04 03:30:10 merlin1991: have a good dream, too late there Nov 04 04:26:02 * jonwil wishes Nokia would stop putting links to private bug trackers, repos etc in public documentation and bug reports Nov 04 06:30:32 my n900 made it to chicago Nov 04 06:30:49 hopefully i get it tomorrow or the next day. that would be awesome Nov 04 06:31:17 definitely monday if not saturday Nov 04 06:31:45 wow. figured travel time from hk would be a lot longer Nov 04 06:37:11 heya macer Nov 04 06:38:53 RST38h: good evening Nov 04 06:39:06 or whatever you're on Nov 04 06:39:13 moorning here Nov 04 06:39:34 mourning ;-) Nov 04 06:39:54 i cant wait to get my n900 Nov 04 06:40:16 i am disappointed i cant find a pad charger that is compatible with it Nov 04 06:40:54 i think the closest would be a duracell mygrid since it has a microusb clip on power receiver. that sucks. Nov 04 07:28:02 How to invoke web app from xterm? Nov 04 07:40:48 simplest is to use phone-control ... a really nice package Nov 04 08:15:08 Hi Nov 04 08:15:32 hai Nov 04 08:15:33 Is there some way to configure key binding globally to run a cmd Nov 04 08:15:35 ? Nov 04 08:15:47 psycho_oreos: hi, you're always online Nov 04 08:16:24 not that I know of, you could try with vkb editor if you want to bind a hardware keyboard button to run a cmd I suppose Nov 04 08:16:34 LaoLang_cool, pure coincidence :) Nov 04 08:17:06 Another question, how to run apps in app list in xterm? Nov 04 08:17:31 psycho_oreos: thanks all the same, but that's not what I want, I want a key binding :) Nov 04 08:17:50 Any call recorder software on maemo? Nov 04 08:18:14 And money management software Nov 04 08:18:52 call recorder software = recaller Nov 04 08:19:01 apps in app list in xterm? Nov 04 08:19:40 also define what do you mean exactly by key binding? which keybinding? hardware or software? Nov 04 08:20:28 psycho_oreos: apps in app list means apps in the application menu :) Nov 04 08:20:45 psycho_oreos: keybinding is like Ctrl-r Nov 04 08:21:02 For example, I want to run web app in xterm Nov 04 08:21:29 LaoLang_cool, apps in app list would probably require creating .desktop icons? Nov 04 08:22:34 LaoLang_cool, not sure about that but hildon-desktop is what I would be looking into... matan made a custom hildon-desktop which allows one to press certain keyboard sequences to do specific things. Since then his hack has been integrated and polished for use in CSSU Nov 04 08:22:52 psycho_oreos: I mean I want to run app in xterm, for example, I want to launch web browser in xterm, don't know what should I type in xterm Nov 04 08:23:58 psycho_oreos: thanks, that would be a starting point, I will look into it when I'm get more familiar with n900 :) Nov 04 08:24:16 LaoLang_cool, you just type in the name of the program in order to execute it, iinm the stock browser is called microb Nov 04 08:24:55 psycho_oreos: $microb produces "microb: not found" ... Nov 04 08:25:12 09:40 < Sicelo> simplest is to use phone-control ... a really nice package Nov 04 08:26:20 https://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control << has the info that package is based on, if u want to type directly Nov 04 08:27:32 psycho_oreos: recorder is, ..., just recorder..., I want to record the phone calling Nov 04 08:27:36 automatically Nov 04 08:28:45 LaoLang_cool, note that I said recaller, not recorder Nov 04 08:28:55 oh! Nov 04 08:28:57 heh, he said 'recaller' which can record every sound from any bus inside N900. if u want to do it manually still, here - http://wiki.maemo.org/Recording_phonecalls Nov 04 08:29:00 My faulse, sorry Nov 04 08:29:31 and also read what Sicelo said, my device is lagging pretty badly so I cannot find the exact name of the program to run microb from xterem Nov 04 08:29:38 s/xterem/xterm/ Nov 04 08:29:39 psycho_oreos meant: and also read what Sicelo said, my device is lagging pretty badly so I cannot find the exact name of the program to run microb from xterm Nov 04 08:30:10 psycho_oreos: network lag, or system lag? Nov 04 08:31:14 Sicelo, system lag, 4 days uptime and it seems to take awfully lots of time doing simple things. I guess when you run microb numerous times, osso-mediaplayer and bluetooth it seems to lag the device over time Nov 04 08:31:55 the irony is that with my other N900 (with SIM card but the device is not used heavily as my main N900) seems to have the same amount of lag after 50+ days of uptime Nov 04 08:32:29 in other words, for 4 days of lag from my main N900 is equivalent to roughly 50+ days of lag from my spare N900 with very similar configuration Nov 04 08:32:55 weird. nice device though, and i envy u ;) Nov 04 08:33:31 psycho_oreos, it's swap fragmentation Nov 04 08:33:49 it is a nice device but it has its flaws.. even with all that I still accepted and provided my N900 with two other siblings ;) you may envy me all you like but I still envy N950 owners more :D Nov 04 08:34:02 ShadowJK, o.O so if I adjust vm_swappiness for instance it would help? Nov 04 08:34:16 Not really Nov 04 08:34:40 ok, time to post the latest results of my reverse engineering efforts Nov 04 08:35:11 hmm, now I'm thinking of stupid things, like make sure nothing else is running (GUI programs-wise) and quickly turn off swap before turning swap back on Nov 04 08:35:28 Or, with swappiness high it's frequent amounts of "small" lag, with swappiness low it's infrequent amounts of huge lag. Nov 04 08:36:06 haha sounds like a huge trade-off either way Nov 04 08:36:24 Yeah, I normally have swap on a swap partition on microsd. I use "iostat -m" from sysstat to monitor the amount of megabytes written to swap. When that is > size of swap partition, I swapon emmc swap again, swapoff microsd, etc. Nov 04 08:36:45 psycho_oreos: How to run recaller? I've installed it Nov 04 08:37:07 it's a widget Nov 04 08:37:14 hmm that is interesting idea actually, and that would sort of temporarily alleviate the issue I suppose? Nov 04 08:37:23 LaoLang_cool, what Sicelo said Nov 04 08:37:28 psycho_oreos, for another 4 days Nov 04 08:38:18 Could write a program to automatically detect that and switch swaps as needed Nov 04 08:38:19 ShadowJK, that's not too bad at all considering that advanced-power sometimes fails to work upon reboots, not to mention the amount of time it takes for my device to reboot as well Nov 04 08:38:21 Sicelo: I tried to add a widget in desktop, but the list doesn't have recaller too Nov 04 08:38:49 oh! Nov 04 08:38:54 heh :P Nov 04 08:38:55 I find it has there... Nov 04 08:39:00 jonwil, I was thinking of hacking a quick script together but I constantly pondered the thoughts of wearing out the microSD more Nov 04 08:39:22 jonwil, yeah I use a script Nov 04 08:40:00 I've never really worn out a microsd.. they've all died from what appears to be firmware bugs Nov 04 08:40:04 ;p Nov 04 08:40:37 I have a list of about 27 different things I may do related to the N900 Nov 04 08:40:43 reverse engineering things that is Nov 04 08:41:01 correction, advanced-power works every now and then.. when it doesn't work its annoying that you get a grey battery icon with no indications of device is either charging or charged, etc. Apart from BME of course indicating via LED light on that lp5523 sensor. This is with advanced-power from extras-devel Nov 04 08:41:12 and, what about a money management software? Nov 04 08:41:31 ShadowJK, firmware bugs? ever owned TopRam microsd? just out of curiousity Nov 04 08:41:40 no it's not available here Nov 04 08:41:47 I know of no money management software for the N900 Nov 04 08:42:23 LaoLang_cool, I've only tried one but I don't know if its good enough to be recommended. All it does is you input your income and daily expenses and it makes a nice graph, etc Nov 04 08:42:28 ShadowJK, ahh bugger :/ Nov 04 08:42:36 ShadowJK: you talked to me? Nov 04 08:42:41 toshl, and b-something LaoLang_cool Nov 04 08:42:43 LaoLang_cool, doubt it Nov 04 08:43:37 psycho_oreos: oh, I think plain txt + R is a way Nov 04 08:43:48 Sicelo: what do you mean? I can't understand Nov 04 08:44:56 anyone heard of projects.maemo.org or can tell me what it is? Nov 04 08:45:09 LaoLang_cool, plain txt + R? Nov 04 08:45:19 Is it a built-in way to take screenshot? Nov 04 08:45:20 find toshl in HAM. the other one will be in same category, starts with a B... but they're all as psycho_oreos said. nothing fancy like GnuCash Nov 04 08:45:25 jonwil, I personally never heard of it Nov 04 08:45:46 psycho_oreos: record my expense then use R to import and analyse the data :) Geek way Nov 04 08:46:23 google shows that this "projects.maemo.org" is running password protected svn repository and also a matching protected git repo Nov 04 08:46:24 aha, Buddy... Nov 04 08:46:37 LaoLang_cool, ahh I never used R before Nov 04 08:46:38 Sicelo: got it, thanks Nov 04 08:46:47 what is R? Nov 04 08:47:09 some money management software I guess *shrugs* Nov 04 08:47:20 I think R is a programming language Nov 04 08:47:22 or a toolking Nov 04 08:47:26 psycho_oreos: Sicelo https://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control Nov 04 08:47:30 http://www.r-project.org/ Nov 04 08:47:47 But I failed to install r-base on maemo Nov 04 08:48:13 It says: r-recommended is broken here Nov 04 08:48:20 what about yours? Nov 04 08:49:09 same Nov 04 08:49:26 hmmm :( Nov 04 08:50:04 aha, looks like projects.maemo.org is a place where development of things that arent developed in the open happens Nov 04 08:50:09 hence the password protection :P Nov 04 08:50:49 or even experiments, maybe even secret stuff from nokia too *shrugs* who knows :) Nov 04 08:52:03 hmmm, what to work on next now that my browser-daemon work is completed Nov 04 08:53:10 where does n900 store the tarball of the pkg I've installed? I want to back them up Nov 04 08:53:36 they're not tarballs, they are compressed fakeroots known as deb files Nov 04 08:54:04 psycho_oreos: oh, so where can I find these .deb files on my N900? Nov 04 08:54:14 Or n900 will delete them after installing pkgs Nov 04 08:54:19 and by default N900 doesn't store them, unless if you use FAM and/or you enable red pill mode with HAM and unchecked boxes for cleaning out apt cache Nov 04 08:54:19 ? Nov 04 08:54:26 ^ Nov 04 08:56:06 apt-get is also another way, along with synaptics. apt-get stores the downloaded debs in the usual location: /var/cache/apt/archives. Synaptics may store elsewhere but may also delete it by default if you have not bothered to check the configs. FAM also does it by default but the setting is not locked away like in HAM Nov 04 08:56:34 * jonwil wishes bug 3836 had been fixed Nov 04 08:56:36 04Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/3836 Move MicroB to an open development process Nov 04 08:58:44 jonwil, I suppose timeless (who's hardly here these days) would happen to know a few things about microb Nov 04 08:59:31 n900 is so nice Nov 04 08:59:50 I dont think its info that's missing though, whats missing is code. And that is up to the Nov 04 08:59:55 in its own ways, yes Nov 04 09:00:06 that is probably up to the lawyers :( Nov 04 09:00:16 heh as always Nov 04 09:01:03 * jonwil has "corporate lawyers" on his list of people, companies and inventions that should vanish off the face of the earth Nov 04 09:01:47 the eradication of patents would be a good thing to target for starters *ducks* Nov 04 09:01:53 yeah Nov 04 09:01:56 too many patent trolls Nov 04 09:02:08 actually no, dont get rid of patents Nov 04 09:02:15 get rid of bogus patents Nov 04 09:02:31 and make it easier for someone with prior art to get the patent overturned Nov 04 09:03:36 Plenty of patents that are genuinely worthy of existing Nov 04 09:03:49 that in itself also would pose bad idea.. what if the organisation for instance applied for the patent and was granted but never bothered to apply the technology utilising that patent? If you remove bogus patents, it may also mean unused patents which may force organisations to either implement it or never bother applying the patent in the first place. Nov 04 09:04:19 I mean "bogus" in the sense of patents that should never have been granted in the first place Nov 04 09:04:27 * psycho_oreos can now think of two apple's patents which can be quickly turned around and be placed into effect.. sure that would piss people off but then again Nov 04 09:05:26 if the invention is original and unique enough to be worth registering, it deserves protection regardless of whether its being used in the real world or not Nov 04 09:05:28 yeah though the definition of that is pretty vague, I mean such as what defines it should never have been granted? there are lots of patents which are not really used at all regardless if it was never meant to be patented. Nov 04 09:06:09 The problem is that patents are being granted for things that are not original or novel enough to be deserving of protection Nov 04 09:08:33 I mean take for instance, apple applied patent for some sort of infrared technology to be implemented in areas where their iphone/ipad users cannot use those device to record via camera. The owners could do everything else at such venue with such anti-home recording patent but just not record live shows. If lets say you tried to remove bogus patents which would inherently affect that imagine the all the shenanigans that follows afterwards Nov 04 09:09:13 Which shell do you use? Nov 04 09:09:19 bash, tcsh Nov 04 09:09:23 ash Nov 04 09:09:24 /bin/bash myself Nov 04 09:09:30 * ShadowJK uses busybox! Nov 04 09:09:34 there's also zsh Nov 04 09:09:38 ShadowJK: geek does Nov 04 09:09:41 changing your login shell is probably a bad idea, btw Nov 04 09:10:09 I use busybox-power tools though. I hardly use ash (part of busybox) unless if I absolutely have to Nov 04 09:10:11 ShadowJK: which file is the equivalent .bash_profile for ash? Nov 04 09:10:16 no idea Nov 04 09:10:17 .profile Nov 04 09:10:21 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2011-09-25 13:39 /bin/bash -> /bin/bash4 Nov 04 09:10:39 ShadowJK: so you use ash with no any customize? Nov 04 09:11:12 yes Nov 04 09:11:17 That Apple patent, it doesn't matter if Apple are using it or not what matters is if its an original invention or not. Its hard for me to tell if that particular invention is novel enough to deserve protection or not since I am not an expert in the field. Nov 04 09:11:25 I have one screen session that I enter a few aliases in at startup Nov 04 09:12:00 changing your login shell isn't as much of a bad idea as deleting /bin/sh symlink and create a new symlink to the shell of your choice Nov 04 09:12:46 jonwil, heh neither am I but I can imagine eradicating bogus patents could create huge uproar Nov 04 09:13:05 psycho_oreos: yes, it's .profile, thank you! Nov 04 09:14:10 no worries, also I would recommend what I said about symlinking /bin/sh to shell of your choice :| I learnt that the hard way (bootloops) Nov 04 09:14:25 wouldn't* Nov 04 09:14:26 ffs Nov 04 09:14:35 ash is ok enough :) Nov 04 09:14:38 for me Nov 04 09:15:15 ShadowJK, maybe you could try that as well.. creating .profile and adding your favourite aliases in there Nov 04 09:15:48 I just do alias swapon=/home/user/swapon Nov 04 09:15:51 or something like that Nov 04 09:15:55 ahh Nov 04 09:16:13 I was thinking of having to do that as a routine would be a bit of a pita :) Nov 04 09:16:16 one every two months Nov 04 09:16:20 once* Nov 04 09:16:59 bash Nov 04 09:17:11 this maybe a stupid question, but what does n9 developer mode do? enable sshd? Nov 04 09:18:17 pyhimys, that and adds new usb connection mode and installs terminal, and more Nov 04 09:18:22 ash executes bash profile though! http://paste.debian.net/142595/ Nov 04 09:20:31 inz: thanks! Is there a list of things it does? Nov 04 09:21:07 I didn't find anything on google. My google-fu might be lacking :( Nov 04 09:21:35 pyhimys: N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan -> /topic Nov 04 09:22:10 DocScrutinizer: just noticed, i'll ask there, sorry about the inconvenience Nov 04 09:22:50 no inconvenience, but you'll get better (or at least more likely any) answer there Nov 04 09:22:53 psycho_oreos, I suspect anything timeless may have that's of any value to the community is stuff he cant share. Nov 04 09:25:56 jonwil, then again he is pretty much the one responsible for microb developments. Sure he may have to hold secrets but I'm sure not all of it is a secret :) Nov 04 09:27:03 unless he can somehow magically make tablet-browser-source.tar.gz appear from thin air I doubt there is much information we could glean from him :P Nov 04 09:28:31 even a proper neteal.h file would be nice but again, its not going to happen :( Nov 04 09:29:37 timeless is with BB now, iirc Nov 04 09:31:44 wasnt someone working on a replacement for tablet-browser-ui? Nov 04 09:32:01 no idea Nov 04 09:32:36 All the evidence I have suggests that Nokia does not want people talking to browserd and would rather they embed the browser widget directly :) Nov 04 09:32:55 But thats not going to stop me posting my browser-neteal-dev package :P Nov 04 09:33:55 having gecko "updated" would be nice, but I imagine that's easier said than done Nov 04 09:34:52 I dont see it being all that hard, all the pieces are there. And none of the interfaces used to talk to gecko (browser-eal or the browserd dbus interface) are using any gecko internals. Nov 04 09:35:10 Main issue would be if closed-source gecko addins (i.e. Flash) are broken by any upgrade Nov 04 09:52:53 ShadowJK, I don't suppose when your device has had 4 days uptime it had hildon-home eating up loads of CPU cycles? Nov 04 09:53:02 nope Nov 04 09:54:28 hmm crap :/ I'm facing this same old issue again and I'm guessing there's a really buggy widget somewhere that is constantly making hildon-home constantly do syscalls for get_timeofday Nov 04 09:55:16 hmm interesting my n900 has been off the cell network for a while... odd Nov 04 09:57:31 hmm interesting can't even get to the Phone settings applet Nov 04 09:57:44 hi, what about multi clipboard buffer? Nov 04 09:58:17 * ruskie wonders if he maybe put the thing into flight mode Nov 04 09:58:19 so I can copy two things then paste any of them in any order I like Nov 04 09:59:54 maybe it's called multi copy Nov 04 10:05:00 check out clipboard-manager. i haven't used it thoug Nov 04 10:05:25 and cipman Nov 04 10:05:32 s/ip/lip/ Nov 04 10:05:33 Sicelo meant: and clipman Nov 04 10:32:04 hmm, clipman is multi copy, no multi paste Nov 04 11:05:40 Hi, I have a '/scratchbox' on my desktop system after installing something Maemo-related a few months ago; I don't remember the exact instructions that I followed. How do I properly uninstall it? Nov 04 11:09:14 browserd open source!! Nov 04 11:09:28 is there a complete/flashable image for the n900 21.2011.38-1? Nov 04 11:12:06 I wonder if we could have microb on N9 now... Nov 04 11:13:12 what is the browser on the n9? Nov 04 11:13:26 grob Nov 04 11:13:31 webkit2 based Nov 04 11:14:41 (For example, I have a shortcut to '/usr/local/bin/start_xephyr.sh' at the Desktop, and it's labeled 'Maemo SDK' - so simply removing the '/scratchbox' directory is likely not enough) Nov 04 11:18:01 We cant have microb on the N9 Nov 04 11:18:19 because the UI bits are closed source Nov 04 11:18:21 and GTK based Nov 04 11:18:45 Porting "microb" to the N9/N950 wont happen Nov 04 11:18:59 Porting Gecko to the N9/N950 is possible if you can come up with a QT backend Nov 04 11:19:11 and writing a UI to talk to that gecko engine is also possible Nov 04 11:19:32 is n9 running X? or qt/qte like? Nov 04 11:19:44 N9 is running x Nov 04 11:20:07 how about a n900/maemo chroot then? Nov 04 11:20:37 Thats also not possible Nov 04 11:20:46 there are too many hardware differences in the N9/N950 Nov 04 11:22:44 browserd being open source (which was my work btw) makes it easier to replace Gecko with a newer version Nov 04 11:27:02 well in theory it does Nov 04 11:27:14 as long as the new version doesnt break the closed-source bits like Flash Nov 04 11:28:12 pigeon: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation#Un-installation Nov 04 11:28:34 sry pigeon wrong highlight Nov 04 11:28:37 gry ^^ Nov 04 11:37:25 ? Nov 04 11:37:52 Thank you. Nov 04 11:38:14 gry: rm /scratchbox see http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation TOP Nov 04 11:41:56 DocScrutinizer: "There is currently no text in this page"? Nov 04 11:42:00 err Nov 04 11:42:22 Thank you, too. Nov 04 11:42:43 ... Nov 04 11:43:54 I already did "sudo rm -rf /scratchbox" like http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation#Un-installation said. Nov 04 11:44:23 DocScrutinizer, How do I proceed? Nov 04 11:45:47 gry: well, either your scratchbox wasn't started, or you already killed your system Nov 04 11:46:51 a `mount` will show you if there are bindmounts of /proc /dev etc to /scratchbox/* Nov 04 11:46:53 hmmm, what to work on next? :P Nov 04 11:47:17 I am pleased with the browserd work, it took a fair bit of effort to get things right Nov 04 11:47:20 http://www.reghardware.com/2011/11/04/nokia_ceo_talks_up_windows_8_tablet_opportunity/ Nov 04 11:47:52 jr@halley:~/Documents/N900/backup/IroN900> mount|grep scratch Nov 04 11:47:53 /scratchbox on /scratchbox/users/jr/scratchbox type none (rw,bind) Nov 04 11:47:55 /tmp on /scratchbox/users/jr/tmp type none (rw,bind) Nov 04 11:47:56 /proc on /scratchbox/users/jr/proc type none (rw,bind) Nov 04 11:47:58 /dev on /scratchbox/users/jr/dev type none (rw,bind) Nov 04 11:47:59 ... Nov 04 11:49:37 jonwil: is that an open request to everyone? ;) Nov 04 11:50:09 DocScrutinizer, http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1373564 is ok? Nov 04 11:50:11 if you have things for me to reverse engineer, speak up Nov 04 11:50:44 gry: yes Nov 04 11:51:13 jonwil: Can you reverse engineer Nokia, so we can try to fix the more annoying bugs? Nov 04 11:54:06 speedevil: :P Nov 04 11:54:29 LOL -> Microsoft Security Advisory (2639658): Vulnerability in TrueType Font Parsing Could Allow Elevation of Privilege http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/advisory/2639658 Nov 04 11:57:01 MohammadAG, ping Nov 04 11:57:09 so yeah what should I work on next? Nov 04 12:12:08 might try to clone tablet-browser-view-test Nov 04 12:12:20 wow i am way ahead in my bills this month.. it's nice Nov 04 12:12:22 :) Nov 04 12:12:25 seems like the perfect way to handle a web browser in your app Nov 04 12:12:35 tablet-browser-view looks like it does some of the good things for you :) Nov 04 12:12:42 jonwil: OMG! I just read the 'new web browser' post. :) Nov 04 12:12:46 Congrats! Nov 04 12:12:53 (I know there would be lots of work) Nov 04 12:12:56 you made a new web browser? Nov 04 12:13:01 No. Nov 04 12:13:01 nope Nov 04 12:13:17 uhm.... you are making one? :) Nov 04 12:13:22 nope Nov 04 12:13:33 you need one? Nov 04 12:13:45 why do you ask?> Nov 04 12:13:48 You got one? Nov 04 12:14:04 What I did was I took some code for an old version of the maemo browserd daemon and fixed it up to match the N900 version Nov 04 12:14:31 why? Nov 04 12:14:39 was there something wrong with the new one? Nov 04 12:14:53 well the stock one is closed-source Nov 04 12:15:05 so I created something thats open Nov 04 12:15:06 oooooh. i see. fair enough. makes sense Nov 04 12:15:07 so people can change it Nov 04 12:15:26 it is nice to see that there are people still working on cssu Nov 04 12:15:40 make a new desktop that uses the sgx and the world will be a perfect place heh Nov 04 12:15:52 jonwil: did you see the port we did of GtkWebKit to the N810 EAL? Nov 04 12:16:06 jonwil: if you've got an OSS NetEAL version you could resurrect that engine port Nov 04 12:16:11 jonwil: it's pretty fast :) Nov 04 12:16:12 no, where is that? Nov 04 12:16:25 for the love of God.. no gtk!! Nov 04 12:16:26 * Macer hides Nov 04 12:16:35 ...? Nov 04 12:16:40 the N900 - uses quite a lot of Gtk... Nov 04 12:16:51 i know. it is a shame. Nov 04 12:17:15 maemo was moving away from gtk (which was awesome) in favor of qt.. but unfortunately ... well... we all know the story Nov 04 12:17:42 gtk needs to be abandoned by the world Nov 04 12:18:03 it is like watching the world use motif still Nov 04 12:18:17 You wouldn't say that if you'd ever actually used Motif. Nov 04 12:18:28 :-) Nov 04 12:18:36 Or worse, written code for it. Nov 04 12:19:26 so where is this GtkWebKit for the N810? Nov 04 12:19:28 heh... i was just using a similie Nov 04 12:19:30 i have read code written for motif, i am thankful for not ever having to write :D Nov 04 12:19:53 jaska: i would hope you would say the same for gtk Nov 04 12:20:05 jonwil: http://cgit.collabora.com/git/webkit-eal.git/ Nov 04 12:20:15 python and perl need to go as well Nov 04 12:20:15 macer: i detest gui toolkits in general :) Nov 04 12:20:33 go straight to hell Nov 04 12:20:47 Macer: you should get over this technology thing Nov 04 12:20:59 the problem isn't any given technology, it's changing the technology all the time Nov 04 12:20:59 java too :-) Nov 04 12:21:29 exactly Nov 04 12:21:36 switching from Gtk to Qt was the waste of time that killed MeeGo's chances inside Nokia Nov 04 12:21:46 that is why governments should execute people that dont use asm Nov 04 12:21:53 it cost literally 2 years of rewriting stuff on the N900 which basically almost worked Nov 04 12:22:01 DocScrutinizer: I rebooted, the system appears to be ok. Thank you for your advice. Nov 04 12:22:41 Robot101: you really think that is what killed meego? :-) Nov 04 12:22:49 um... yes Nov 04 12:22:59 if you say so Nov 04 12:23:15 i think the inability to make nokia money killed meego Nov 04 12:23:35 yes, due to inability to release a product Nov 04 12:23:37 but i suppose we all have a different point of view on the matter Nov 04 12:23:51 no, you're just supporting my theory Nov 04 12:23:57 time wasted => no money in Nov 04 12:24:23 they could have released a product had they put their full weight and resources behind it... maemo was a back alley nokia product while symbian had all the goods Nov 04 12:24:29 change technology and rewrite loads of stuff with a team which is 10 times bigger than it needs to be, and get rid of the working code for *NO REAL REASON* => waste years and 10 times more money Nov 04 12:24:40 Harmattan had a gigantic team compared to Fremantle - that was part of the problem Nov 04 12:25:08 i am still with a demand issue Nov 04 12:25:38 android and ios had 70% of the market and nobody wanted the other stuff Nov 04 12:25:45 Nokia's supply chain inertia is large enough to create demand just by filling the market Nov 04 12:25:52 provided the product is good enough Nov 04 12:25:54 that's what Microsoft is betting on Nov 04 12:25:58 webos.... rim..... symbian..... Nov 04 12:26:28 webos and rim are just ants compared to the nokia juggernaut - they didn't ship in as many countries, or as many operators, or in as much volume as anything from N Nov 04 12:26:42 anyway, lunch time Nov 04 12:26:46 I dont know that a webkit based EAL will work very well on the N900 Nov 04 12:26:51 sounds like maemo Nov 04 12:26:53 lol Nov 04 12:27:10 which shipped in many countries and was still an ant Nov 04 12:31:36 webit microb didn't work that well in diablo I think Nov 04 12:31:54 Looking at that EAL code it should be fairly simple to port to Fremantle if you wanted to Nov 04 12:32:03 although as was said, its probably not worth doing Nov 04 12:33:41 me, I intend to clone tablet-browser-view-test now :) Nov 04 12:33:51 shouldn't be hard from the look of it Nov 04 12:37:51 lately I have been on a real "lets reverse engineer stuff Nov 04 12:37:54 " mood Nov 04 12:37:57 which is a good thing Nov 04 12:44:27 I have a habit of comming into communities and really contributing to those communities with good things Nov 04 12:44:41 i just took the most awesome shower ever Nov 04 12:45:47 jonwil: thats awesome. no matter how much contempt we may all have for nokia.... maemo is still great Nov 04 12:45:54 there is nothing like it Nov 04 12:45:57 yep Nov 04 12:46:00 nonsense Nov 04 12:46:14 Maemo *could have been great* if anything worked right, maybe. Nov 04 12:47:08 I love Maemo Nov 04 12:47:17 and I think the N900 is the best cellphone ever made :) Nov 04 12:47:19 luke-jr: i think it is the best mobile full linux distro made thus far Nov 04 12:47:26 jonwil: N900 wasn't supposed to be a cellphone Nov 04 12:47:47 Macer: Maemo isn't Linux Nov 04 12:47:51 Macer: MeeGo, maybe Nov 04 12:47:56 but not Maemo for sure Nov 04 12:48:16 Maemo IS linux Nov 04 12:48:23 uhm Nov 04 12:48:28 jonwil: nope Nov 04 12:48:34 maemo uses a linux kernel and it also has a gnu user env Nov 04 12:48:41 jonwil: it doesn't ship with Linux, and you can't even use it with Linux Nov 04 12:48:43 what more do you need to fit the definition of "Linux" Nov 04 12:48:46 we all love maemo, luke-jr is just trolling Nov 04 12:48:47 Macer: no, it doesn't have a GNU env Nov 04 12:48:52 er Nov 04 12:48:53 Macer: it has BusyBox Nov 04 12:49:04 Macer: Linux comes from kernel.org Nov 04 12:49:06 a lot of arm based distros have busybox Nov 04 12:49:16 Macer: sure, but that doesn't make it GNU Nov 04 12:49:21 BusyBox != GNU Nov 04 12:49:32 seriously? :) Nov 04 12:49:36 … Nov 04 12:49:43 so you're saying the kernel used on a n900 is not a linux kernel? Nov 04 12:49:47 correct. Nov 04 12:49:51 lmao Nov 04 12:49:51 which file browser is recommended? Nov 04 12:49:57 ok.. how about "linux based" Nov 04 12:49:58 better? Nov 04 12:50:01 The N900 is most definatly "Linux" Nov 04 12:50:02 download *any* Linux kernel (remember, they're on kernel.org) and get Maemo to boot with it Nov 04 12:50:04 Its got a linux kernel on it Nov 04 12:50:06 Macer: sure Nov 04 12:50:11 Macer: Android is also Linux-based, though Nov 04 12:50:13 Linux-Like heh Nov 04 12:50:18 jonwil: no more than Android does Nov 04 12:50:24 Its linux in that it can run linux apps Nov 04 12:50:33 jonwil: BSD can also run Linux apps Nov 04 12:50:39 luke-jr: i assumed n900 used a basic omap kernel with hardware blobs Nov 04 12:50:53 Macer: nope Nov 04 12:50:56 heh Nov 04 12:51:02 Macer: it has a bunch of userspace API hacks required Nov 04 12:51:06 i think you're being way too technical on what should be considered "linux" Nov 04 12:51:13 * merlin1991 can't find the icon for terminal app packages on the wiki Nov 04 12:51:19 Macer: for good reason Nov 04 12:51:28 I remember that if the package contains a terminal app it shoud have that icon Nov 04 12:51:33 luke-jr: that sounds like anal debian dev talk there Nov 04 12:51:35 :) Nov 04 12:51:35 Macer: the fact that Maemo doesn't use Linux is the reason why you can never get Linux 3.1 working with it Nov 04 12:51:53 even with the drivers ported Nov 04 12:52:03 stskeeps was workign on adding all the open stuff to the linux arm branch.. but well.. we all know how that went Nov 04 12:52:19 Linux won't accept Maemo's API hacks Nov 04 12:52:21 I see nothing in the N900 system that would be in any way tied to specific kernel vresions Nov 04 12:52:27 versions Nov 04 12:52:30 jonwil: you didn't look very hard. Nov 04 12:52:38 Give me an example then Nov 04 12:52:56 You could easily port whatever maemo patches are in the maemo kernel to whatever other kernel source tree you had Nov 04 12:52:58 if you wanted to Nov 04 12:53:06 /proc/bootreason Nov 04 12:53:25 jonwil: perhaps, but then you're back to Linux-based since Linux proper will never accept these patches Nov 04 12:54:05 if the companies would need to get everything the need to get the project going upstreamed before they use it, they would miss deadlines even better Nov 04 12:54:05 wouldn't that mean that ubuntu is also not linux? Nov 04 12:54:05 /proc/bootreason is not a Linux API, yet Maemo requires the kernel to provide it Nov 04 12:54:18 Macer: Ubuntu will boot if you install a Linux kernel Nov 04 12:54:24 and after it's been released, nobody cares about working with the upstream Nov 04 12:54:29 on an n900? Nov 04 12:54:31 :) Nov 04 12:54:32 it's not like you can just ship a patch and it gets integrated Nov 04 12:54:47 Macer: yes, if the drivers are patched in (drivers *can* be accepted upstream) Nov 04 12:55:10 flux: it's easier than supporting the device after releasing it Nov 04 12:55:11 probably bootreason could've just been an additional driver (maybe it is now already, I don't know) Nov 04 12:55:19 flux: the problem is Nokia doesn't care to do either Nov 04 12:55:26 luke-jr, but if you don't get everything in, it's not very useful Nov 04 12:55:35 because you still need to provide support Nov 04 12:55:57 flux: if you get everything in, the Linux kernel maintainers keep it up to date for you Nov 04 12:56:00 more or less Nov 04 12:56:39 * luke-jr thinks Linus should be more assertive about enforcing the trademark Nov 04 12:57:00 I suspect Linus would consider that a N900 is "running Linux" Nov 04 12:57:18 RMS would probably say "its Linux but not gnu/linux" Nov 04 12:57:38 so does a linux fork become not-linux the moment you have an application that depends on a modification you've made? Nov 04 12:57:51 btw, what part of the system relies on bootreason anyway? Nov 04 12:59:06 oh ok, getbootstate needs it Nov 04 12:59:11 flux: the Linux fork becomes not-Linux the moment it behaves differently from Linux Nov 04 12:59:26 :) luke-jr maemo is still the best "linux-based" mobile distro Nov 04 12:59:27 heh Nov 04 12:59:28 someone created an open clone of getbootstate IIRC Nov 04 12:59:38 flux: the *userland/aggregation* becomes "not Linux" the moment it won't boot with a standard Linux kernel Nov 04 12:59:39 luke-jr: That would mean linuses fork is not linux. Nov 04 12:59:41 luke-jr, so it's all black and white? you add a usleep(1) to boot and then it behaves differently from The True Linux? Nov 04 12:59:53 SpeedEvil: Linus defines Linux Nov 04 13:00:03 flux: that's not different behaviour :pp Nov 04 13:00:09 hahahaha Nov 04 13:00:09 I would say adding custom system calls crosses the line, for example Nov 04 13:00:12 I like the N900 because its the most open 3G handset available Nov 04 13:00:14 not adding new drivers or entries in /proc Nov 04 13:00:16 luke-jr: Then that would mean the mainline kernel is not linux. Nov 04 13:00:17 luke-jr: omg that should go on the quote bot Nov 04 13:00:20 :) Nov 04 13:00:25 SpeedEvil: fail Nov 04 13:00:28 Linux defines Linux Nov 04 13:00:30 that was epic Nov 04 13:00:44 dyslexics of the world, untie ;) Nov 04 13:00:46 and after that he walks on water and rises from the dead :) Nov 04 13:00:48 flux: /proc entries are basically system calls without using up syscall numbers Nov 04 13:00:49 luke-jr: Linus maintains a repository that is not in the mainstream kernel yet. Nov 04 13:01:16 what does linux do for money? Nov 04 13:01:20 can we stop arguing about whether the N900 is running Linux or not and get back to taking about which closed-source bits of the N900 software I will reverse engineer next? :) Nov 04 13:01:23 he's paid to hack Linux Nov 04 13:01:25 i mean. he writes open source kernels.. does he have a side job? :) Nov 04 13:01:26 heh Nov 04 13:01:31 jonwil: AGPS? Nov 04 13:01:36 wait, that's N8x0 Nov 04 13:01:44 N900 has AGPS Nov 04 13:01:49 but GPS is too complicated Nov 04 13:01:49 Macer: open source != not paid Nov 04 13:01:55 jonwil: pfft Nov 04 13:02:01 jonwil: hack NOLO? Nov 04 13:02:05 luke-jr, except drivers can easily add new entries to /proc Nov 04 13:02:05 replace it with something open Nov 04 13:02:14 I already investigated location-daemon, location-proxy etc Nov 04 13:02:23 flux: not really, no. they change /sys Nov 04 13:02:23 As for NOLO, I dont want to touch stuff that low-level Nov 04 13:02:24 luke-jr: that's not a problem Nov 04 13:02:36 so not NOLO or kernel or cellmodem Nov 04 13:02:42 luke-jr, well, things are just moving to /sys or have moved there lately Nov 04 13:02:44 jonwil: you know I reverse engineered location-* years ago? Nov 04 13:02:47 luke-jr: but u-boot is huge compared to nolo Nov 04 13:03:01 luke-jr: and rewriting bootloader takes time Nov 04 13:03:07 luke-jr: and nolo does the job Nov 04 13:03:09 got a link to that location-* work? Nov 04 13:03:16 jonwil: PowerVRT Nov 04 13:03:17 jonwil: PowerVR Nov 04 13:03:24 jonwil: is there a list of closed things on a n900? Nov 04 13:03:32 yeah... open up the powervr Nov 04 13:03:34 heh Nov 04 13:03:46 http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages Nov 04 13:04:00 PowerVR is also too complex, already looked at it before Nov 04 13:04:25 jonwil: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_GPS_Reverse_Engineering Nov 04 13:04:35 oh that page Nov 04 13:04:38 luke-jr, create_proc_read_entry still exists and is used by modules Nov 04 13:04:45 flux: modules != drivers Nov 04 13:04:53 flux: modules are just binary patches Nov 04 13:05:13 clockd? Nov 04 13:05:13 * DocScrutinizer smells Friday Nov 04 13:05:14 wtf? Nov 04 13:05:29 DocScrutinizer: i'm already off work. i smell weekend :) Nov 04 13:05:48 Macer: I notice that, yeah Nov 04 13:06:02 clockd is closed source I suspect because it talks to cell network to get cell network time or related settings Nov 04 13:06:04 and i made a big plan to veg out the entire week Nov 04 13:06:19 yeah well... get rid of that haha... make it use ntpd or something :) Nov 04 13:06:21 jonwil: a good candidate fro RE Nov 04 13:07:52 wow... that much of hildon is closed? Nov 04 13:08:03 why would nokia even bother keeping hildon on lockdown like that? Nov 04 13:08:40 [09:05:58] clockd is closed source I suspect because it talks to cell network to get cell network time or related settings Nov 04 13:08:41 ^ retarded Nov 04 13:08:52 cell network takes too long to get time Nov 04 13:09:05 I wish NITs just used the stupid GPS for time Nov 04 13:09:10 it doesn't even really need a fix Nov 04 13:09:15 just a single GPS packet Nov 04 13:09:32 until you're not los for a long time Nov 04 13:09:35 6s Nov 04 13:09:47 Is a GPS packet - enough for time anyway Nov 04 13:09:58 the only time GPS fails for me is when cell service fails Nov 04 13:10:17 Btw that GPS reverse engineering is only a tiny part of the functionality for GPS, its only one of many different packets that are sent to and from the cell modem for GPS Nov 04 13:10:17 and once you get a single GPS packet, you can use the system clock Nov 04 13:10:27 and that packet isn't even totally reverse enginereed Nov 04 13:10:32 jonwil: it was enough to get the GPS fully functional… Nov 04 13:10:43 except maybe AGPS Nov 04 13:10:59 "functional" and "works as good as stock" are 2 different things :) Nov 04 13:11:43 as for hildon, I bet a lot of the closed bits are closed for other reasons. For example hildon-theme-* are closed because they are "branding" Nov 04 13:12:33 jonwil: just don't listen to him.. open clockd Nov 04 13:12:34 lol Nov 04 13:12:37 do it your own way :) Nov 04 13:12:42 also remember Nokia has a "UX == differentiation" rule Nov 04 13:12:56 well... hildon is very wel closed Nov 04 13:13:01 the applets are shocking Nov 04 13:13:11 all the applets are closed? :) Nov 04 13:13:11 yeah the control panel applets are closed Nov 04 13:13:20 but that doesnt mean hildon iself is closed Nov 04 13:13:28 you would think someone would have made new applets Nov 04 13:13:29 heh Nov 04 13:13:31 open ones Nov 04 13:13:33 although a number of the applets have been cloned for the CSSU Nov 04 13:13:39 like the notification light applet Nov 04 13:13:43 ah i see Nov 04 13:13:44 or the tv-out applet Nov 04 13:13:54 someone cloned the battery charge status widget Nov 04 13:14:12 i find it odd nokia would keep that closed as well Nov 04 13:14:26 i wonder what goes through their minds when they make these decisions Nov 04 13:14:36 probably nothing Nov 04 13:15:59 as for clock, I am looking up right now all the different packages involved to figure out which ones should go on my todo Nov 04 13:16:09 I plan to finish cloning tablet-browser-view-test first I think Nov 04 13:16:18 but yeah clockd seems like a good idea Nov 04 13:17:38 hmmm there is clockd and also Libclockcore0-0 Nov 04 13:17:46 although it looks like Libclockcore0-0 is just for the clock applet Nov 04 13:18:13 i.e. its not low-level like clockd Nov 04 13:18:28 clockd requires libcityinfo0, whatever that is Nov 04 13:19:19 heh Nov 04 13:19:32 probably the database that some atlas company sued over Nov 04 13:19:39 that was comical Nov 04 13:20:11 no more timezones for linux! Nov 04 13:23:10 that's tzdata Nov 04 13:23:22 libcityinfo is probably that world map Nov 04 13:23:46 well... my n900 is in chicago.... i hope it gets here soon Nov 04 13:23:57 probably tomorrow... i hope... i need an n900 before i just die Nov 04 13:24:03 this G2 is so absolutely horrible Nov 04 13:24:03 no, world map is libhildon-time-zone-chooser0-0 Nov 04 13:24:21 someone produced a set of header files for libhildon-time-zone-chooser0-0 Nov 04 13:24:38 libcityinfo looks worth cloning maybe Nov 04 13:24:48 if I am doing clockd, libcityinfo seems worth checking out too Nov 04 13:25:24 it has a -dev and a -doc package too Nov 04 13:25:27 which makes life easier Nov 04 13:26:00 i wonder why a blue nokia e7 is so much more than a silver one Nov 04 13:26:07 do they use porshe quality paint? Nov 04 13:26:42 eeew, german cars :P Nov 04 13:27:27 do the fins make cars? :) Nov 04 13:27:32 Macer: they use porsche quality paint on silver oone Nov 04 13:27:36 Macer: that's why it's so cheap Nov 04 13:27:41 lol Nov 04 13:27:45 hahaha Nov 04 13:28:28 geez i was just curious :) i mean the shade of blue just doesn't seem very high demand Nov 04 13:28:29 I dont know if they make cars in finland but they do over the boarder in Sweeden Nov 04 13:28:34 some mighty fine cars at that Nov 04 13:28:44 jonwil: saab went bust last month Nov 04 13:28:52 nope, they havent gone bust yet Nov 04 13:29:00 they are in financial trouble Nov 04 13:29:10 but there are all sorts of people who want to invest money in SAAB Nov 04 13:29:29 On September 7th 2011, Saab Automobile filed for bankruptcy protection Nov 04 13:29:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Automobile#2nd_bankruptcy_protection Nov 04 13:29:34 arent they getting sold to chinese? Nov 04 13:29:39 they are bust Nov 04 13:29:52 volvo is all right Nov 04 13:30:00 volvo ftw :) Nov 04 13:30:00 and volvo got sold to the chinese already :) Nov 04 13:30:10 ahm Nov 04 13:30:18 maybe i will buy an allvelo Nov 04 13:30:20 but saab made much better cars Nov 04 13:30:31 saab made ugly cars Nov 04 13:30:38 they turned into just a name Nov 04 13:30:42 like apple :) Nov 04 13:30:47 The local transport authority around here is buying a whole bunch of Volvo buses Nov 04 13:30:48 but you could do million miles and it would still work Nov 04 13:30:51 and they are good buses at that Nov 04 13:31:00 not quite like apple, i wouldnt take an iphone for free. Nov 04 13:31:33 jacekowski: but if for some reason it doesn't last a million miles then it costs a million to repair Nov 04 13:32:35 I would actually say the Volvo buses are better than the german and french product (Mercedes Benz and Renault) that makes up the rest of the bus fleet Nov 04 13:33:05 Macer: still cheaper than fixing german crap Nov 04 13:33:43 i've seen 2008 BMW on fire 3 weeks ago Nov 04 13:33:46 on M25 Nov 04 13:33:59 heh, just saw a TV ad for the N9 Nov 04 13:34:08 jonwil: i don't have a tv Nov 04 13:36:02 are they still only selling N9s to fins only? Nov 04 13:36:05 how racist :) Nov 04 13:36:38 The N9 is definatly for sale in Australia Nov 04 13:36:40 friend bought n9 and a bt kbd, told him not to Nov 04 13:36:42 from at least one carrier Nov 04 13:36:48 now hes moaning about the kbd not working :) Nov 04 13:36:57 haha Nov 04 13:37:02 DocScrutinizer was talking about that Nov 04 13:37:08 that the bt keyboard doesn't work :) Nov 04 13:37:17 i wonder if my su8w will work with the e7 Nov 04 13:37:19 ok, so for the clock stuff, if I decide to clone anything, I will clone clockd, libcityinfo0-0 and libtime0 Nov 04 13:37:22 i bet it does Nov 04 13:37:29 i should lure him to sell me his n900 Nov 04 13:37:32 for spares Nov 04 13:37:55 heh Nov 04 13:38:04 hurry up before he realizes the n9 sucks Nov 04 13:38:14 clockd at the very least doesn't seem that hard to clone Nov 04 13:38:33 libtime seems harder Nov 04 13:38:45 maybe someone will port meego for the e7 Nov 04 13:38:56 ok, back to reverse engineering tablet-browser-view-test :) Nov 04 13:39:11 damn... my n900 is already at my post office at 6am.. it might get here today! Nov 04 13:39:16 that would be great Nov 04 13:39:29 it is amazing how quickly this thing is getting here Nov 04 13:40:48 oh and btw luke-jr, I have a pn_location_isi.h header file containing all the packets sent too and from the cellmodem for GPS Nov 04 13:43:53 jonwil: don't listen to luke-jr .. he is bitter Nov 04 13:44:03 no u Nov 04 13:44:25 jonwil: could be legally grey to use that :p Nov 04 13:49:03 jonwil: pn_location_isi.h WOW! Nov 04 13:49:31 is that WOW as in, cool, didnt know that was out there or wow as in "big deal"? Nov 04 13:49:43 #1 Nov 04 13:49:48 ok Nov 04 13:50:23 tablet-browser-view-test seems nice and simple :P Nov 04 13:52:34 tonight though I will not make the mistake I made last night of pulling an all-nighter and ending up in bed at 5am just as the sun was starting to come up Nov 04 13:53:50 ok, good, tablet-browser-view-test has an i386 build Nov 04 13:53:55 Perfect. Nov 04 13:54:09 (i386 packages are easier to reverse engineer than armel) Nov 04 13:55:48 too tired to do much more work tonight Nov 04 13:56:57 should probably stop doing all this N900 work and clean up my pigsty of an apartment ready for a rent-inspection in just under 2 weeks :) Nov 04 13:59:06 Thinking about cloning keycard to phone... Nov 04 13:59:31 FSCKD AUTOBUILDER Nov 04 13:59:35 N900 Nov 04 14:01:25 damn Nov 04 14:01:31 my artigo took a crap on me Nov 04 14:01:41 i was in the middle of watching something and it just shut off by itself and now it won't boot Nov 04 14:01:51 i get the bios and it just sits there and doesn't count the memory. i hope the memory just died Nov 04 14:02:00 i used the damn thing to watch tv shows in my room Nov 04 14:08:21 okay got my package to build now, but is there any convenient way to build packages beforehand like on the autobuilder? Nov 04 14:30:48 How do you sync time on n900? Nov 04 14:30:50 ntp? Nov 04 14:32:36 LaoLang_cool: GSM Nov 04 14:32:52 does require the network to have active time broadcasts Nov 04 14:33:06 Ikarus: my GSM has no this service here... Nov 04 14:33:19 LaoLang_cool: then you could use NTP or GPS Nov 04 14:33:21 I think npt is the best way for my condition Nov 04 14:33:56 oh, mensioned GPS, here when I open map, it always says: looking for GPS... Nov 04 14:46:35 LaoLang_cool: with time incorrect AGPS will fail Nov 04 14:46:49 we had that topic like 18h ago Nov 04 14:47:15 DocScrutinizer: oh! it's the time incorrect issue Nov 04 14:47:29 I will try to install a ntpupdate to sync my clock Nov 04 14:51:58 I've installed openntpd Nov 04 14:52:29 was reading installation of queen beecon/sense ui widget ... reading through that seems installing nitdroid is simpler hehe Nov 04 14:53:19 but how to use it... Nov 04 15:01:45 no ntpdate for n900 :( Nov 04 15:03:56 openntpd Nov 04 15:04:57 SpeedEvil: I've installed it, but don't know how to use it... Nov 04 15:05:07 just a nptd command Nov 04 15:05:24 ntpd -p ntp.ubuntu.com Nov 04 15:05:24 it should sync after a few mins, if you have network Nov 04 15:05:35 (at least the busybox version of ntpd) Nov 04 15:06:28 NIN101: Invalid option -- p Nov 04 15:06:42 ntpd [-dSs] [-f file] Nov 04 15:08:51 SpeedEvil: Is the openntpd installed by apt-get busybox version? Nov 04 15:10:33 It's not the full version Nov 04 15:10:38 I'm unsure where it comes from Nov 04 15:12:06 ntpd -d seems to update Nov 04 15:12:12 How to know if the time is correct? Nov 04 15:12:40 SpeedEvil: cool, -d works Nov 04 15:13:37 probably it's most reasonable to add ntpd -q(?) && hwclock --systohc to ifup Nov 04 15:14:23 DocScrutinizer51: no -q option too... Nov 04 15:14:25 ntpd in daemon mode doesn't play nice on random connectivity Nov 04 15:15:03 yeah, in former times there's been ntptime Nov 04 15:15:37 it's obsolete though ntpd doesn't completely replace it Nov 04 15:15:41 Still always looking for GPS... Nov 04 15:16:25 anyway messybox $random_cmd usually doesn't work as expeted, so better get the genuine package Nov 04 15:17:39 mpf, no openssl Nov 04 15:17:57 Corsac: do you talk to me? Nov 04 15:18:47 not at all Nov 04 15:20:24 Corsac: oh Nov 04 15:53:41 * Sicelo has ntpdate :) Nov 04 16:01:56 Hi guys. Can anyone tell me why certain packages listed here: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-testing/dists/fremantle/free/binary-armel/Packages won't show up in my applications list on the n900? I'm specifically trying to get iptables Nov 04 16:02:21 I see lots of other packages, just not iptables Nov 04 16:03:29 because it's not gui application Nov 04 16:03:38 stuff that's not gui has to be installed from console Nov 04 16:03:40 apt-get Nov 04 16:04:05 gotcha. thanks Nov 04 16:04:41 awesome. Got it. :( Nov 04 16:04:43 er :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 04 16:14:09 2011 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 04 16:18:15 2011 Nov 04 16:54:14 I'm looking for people to vote on woodchuck related packages so they can enter extras Nov 04 16:54:47 http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/murmeltier/0.4~20111102-7/ Nov 04 16:55:24 http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/pywoodchuck/0.4~20111102-7/ Nov 04 16:55:44 those are the two most important, but there are 7 packages in total :/ **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 04 17:02:03 2011 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 04 17:03:22 2011 **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 04 17:15:12 2011 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 04 17:24:15 2011 Nov 04 18:52:54 hmm any reasons as to why Fn + Sym does not bring up the vkb with extra symbols? If I double tap Fn I will get a banner that says Fn is locked, obviously pressing it once again gets out of Fn locking. If I press and hold Fn key whilst hitting another key that has Fn functionality I get the symbols. The Sym|Ctrl appears to work as well in terminal when I press and hold Sym|Ctrl and hit D (for logging out). Nov 04 18:53:28 Also when the keyboard is not slid out on N900, I could get the virtual keyboard, but not the extra symbols keyboard Nov 04 18:54:49 * psycho_oreos is starting to think this third N900 is a real lemon, too many issues here and there Nov 04 18:54:51 Hey, does someone know if it's possible to turn of Javascript in opera? Nov 04 18:55:07 I can't find the setting and nothing on the web. Nov 04 18:56:24 Shapeshifter: http://mistered.us/tips/javascript/opera.shtml Nov 04 18:56:46 x29a: I'm talking about opera for the N900, naturally. Nov 04 18:58:10 id figure its not that much different Nov 04 18:58:17 Shapeshifter: did you go through the settings already? Nov 04 18:58:24 x29a: yes Nov 04 18:58:55 opera:config as well? Nov 04 18:59:56 the option of question would be: Scripting Enable JavaScript/ECMAScript 1 Nov 04 19:00:52 x29a: mhh, there's only one option matching ecma, "EcmaScriptJIT". searching for javascript shows a bunch of unrelated settings Nov 04 19:01:12 no value for scripting? Nov 04 19:01:16 then id say, its not possible Nov 04 19:02:20 no. yeah it's odd Nov 04 19:02:36 When flashing my N900, what firmware should I use for canada? Nov 04 19:02:40 The USA or global one? Nov 04 19:03:49 Well.. my Nokia N900 isn't detecting my SIM card. Nov 04 19:05:00 Starwiz, probably global one imo Nov 04 19:05:28 Psycho_Oreos: That was my quess.. But neither are detecting my SIM card. =\ Nov 04 19:05:30 do i see that right the pr1.3.1 update the autoupdating offers doesnt touch the kernel? Nov 04 19:05:59 Starwiz, did the device use to work with the exact same SIM card? Nov 04 19:06:18 nox-, I'm assuming it shouldn't Nov 04 19:06:52 Psycho_Oreos: I just bought it. Nov 04 19:07:00 nox-, but as always, backup is really handy Nov 04 19:07:07 Starwiz, which? the device or the SIM card? Nov 04 19:07:32 psycho_oreos, whats the preferred backup method these days? :) Nov 04 19:07:34 Psycho_Oreos: The device. Nov 04 19:08:08 nox-, backupmenu, too bad backupmenu couldn't backup the kernel but at least it'll save you heck alot of work though Nov 04 19:08:16 Starwiz, brand new or second hand? Nov 04 19:08:24 Psycho_Oreos: Brand new Nov 04 19:09:03 Starwiz, it could be that the provider is not using a frequency that the device could handle (e.g. 850MHz band) Nov 04 19:09:07 psycho_oreos, ok. its mostly just bc i use kernel power and was wondering if i should uninstall it before upgrading... Nov 04 19:09:16 s/device could/device couldn't/ Nov 04 19:09:17 psycho_oreos meant: Starwiz, it could be that the provider is not using a frequency that the device couldn't handle (e.g. 850MHz band) Nov 04 19:10:27 nox-, to be frank I wouldn't have a clue. nokia said it was only a security fix which is a simple/trivial matter of updating the certificates but who knows what else has been changed in PR1.3.1. I myself use CSSU which already has the diginotar's fix ages ago Nov 04 19:11:28 yeah i see they're aiming for a stable cssu, i might use that too once its released... Nov 04 19:11:40 maybe ill just wait :) Nov 04 19:12:42 Starwiz, I'd try another SIM card that works with your previous device/phone and that doesn't use 850MHz band. If you still get no SIM card, your device could be faulty. Thinking about it again, its somewhat unlikely that inserting a SIM card with a provider that works with 850MHz band will give you a no SIM card error. If anything, it would not be able to subscribe to the network instead of showing no SIM card inserted icon Nov 04 19:13:47 CSSU currently is somewhat stable from my point of view, at least it provides plenty of cool features that nokia couldn't be assed revealing Nov 04 19:18:21 Psycho_oreos: I redid the flash, and now I'm not getting the no-sim error thang.. But I don't have a service bar or anything =\ Nov 04 19:19:24 Starwiz, you still have yet to find out if the provider works on 850MHz band or not Nov 04 19:22:23 Psycho_Oreos: After a google search, wikipedia came up saying that the GSM-850 and GSM-1900 are used in Brazil, Canada, etcetc Nov 04 19:22:52 * psycho_oreos facepalms Nov 04 19:23:04 UMTS/HSPA 850MHz and/or 1900MHz Nov 04 19:23:24 Indeed, there are a few countries that uses 850MHz band but that's not my question. My question is if your SIM provider works with 850MHz band Nov 04 19:23:42 UMTS/HSPA 850MHz and/or 1900MHz = Telus Nov 04 19:23:46 ok Nov 04 19:23:51 So I'm going to say yes. =P Nov 04 19:24:02 i will be damned Nov 04 19:24:17 it really is a brand new nokia n900 lol Nov 04 19:24:26 So go with another provider that doesn't use 850MHz band because afaik N900 doesn't support 850MHz band? Nov 04 19:24:35 it doesnt seem to be a hk knockoff Nov 04 19:24:47 awesome Nov 04 19:25:07 $255 for a brand new n900 wasnt bad Nov 04 19:25:51 from where? Nov 04 19:26:28 hk Nov 04 19:26:32 ebay Nov 04 19:26:56 i am using it now waiting for it to do something asian :) Nov 04 19:27:19 but so far it seems to be working like a champ Nov 04 19:27:47 omg i missed the n900 qwerty. pne of the better ones i have ever used Nov 04 19:29:04 it won't do anything asian if you flashed it properly and fully. I've bought my 2nd N900 when I visited HK. Needless to say I was a little pissed off it isn't quite brand new as someone has played around with it and screwed up the vkb. Plus I'm missing a proper USB -> microUSB cable and headphone Nov 04 19:29:55 yeah.. mine was too lol Nov 04 19:30:03 fake chinese headphones Nov 04 19:30:13 at least the battery is nokia Nov 04 19:30:31 i can deal with that as long as the phone is good Nov 04 19:30:45 $255 is cheap even for a used n900 Nov 04 19:30:47 mine was a genuine nokia headphones but they don't work with N900. It has extra buttons to control music player (needless to say which doesn't work). Nov 04 19:31:00 Psycho_Oreos: Is it possible for me to use this phone without the 3G network? Because the 2G is 850/1900 compatible. So shouldn't it work for just calls and whatnot? Nov 04 19:31:11 Or am I just crazy. Nov 04 19:31:20 i have my original headphones from my broken one Nov 04 19:31:49 fk.. i just realized my xp box died this morning Nov 04 19:32:05 Starwiz, You can, the problem isn't that. The problem is that if your provider currently is only using 850MHz band, if they are you're pretty much screwed Nov 04 19:32:08 i need to flash cssu Nov 04 19:32:24 meh. i will do that later Nov 04 19:32:57 Psycho_Oreos: Oh I see. Nov 04 19:33:44 Starwiz, and the alternative is to get another SIM card with a provider that does not use 850MHz band or you'll need to buy another phone that is capable of using Telus Nov 04 19:34:44 crap i forgot how long it takes to install something on the n900 Nov 04 19:35:48 it actually doesn't take that long :P Nov 04 19:36:02 aka FAM Nov 04 19:44:29 what is event_type_id 7 in the el-v1.db Nov 04 19:45:19 i thought its sms, in my db those are 11 Nov 04 19:53:18 Macer: yeah, wait for either T17 CSSU, or the all exciting new Stable version to come soon Nov 04 20:22:09 DocScrutinizer: really? Nov 04 20:22:20 so no point in flashing now? Nov 04 20:22:20 really what? Nov 04 20:25:08 you said to wait for a stable release Nov 04 20:25:24 i am guessing i am going to have to flash cssu on my hk n900 Nov 04 20:25:40 i cant believe this thing works lol Nov 04 20:25:41 we just finished a meeting where we sorted last questions about who and how is going to build CSSU-testiing-17.0 (16.8 being recent), and merlin1991 is about to branch a stable version based on 16.8 and cleaned up a bit - it will probably see merges to level T17 prior to first release Nov 04 20:26:20 nice... when that is all said and done i will flash this thing Nov 04 20:26:47 well, T17 got "announced" by MohammadAG for this weekend Nov 04 20:27:17 i sure wish the n900 had a charging pad sleeve for any charging pad Nov 04 20:27:44 duracell mygrid clip wou.d go right across the cam :( Nov 04 20:29:27 DocScrutinizer: i look forward to it Nov 04 20:29:37 i think i wi.. try arm meego out as well Nov 04 21:14:44 where is the skype account password stored on the n900? Nov 04 21:16:36 skype on the n900 is a dark and battery draining thing, better not ask about it on foss channels ;) Nov 04 21:17:04 heh Nov 04 21:17:19 in conversations acct settings Nov 04 21:17:39 merlin1991: is right tho. it is a battery draining whore Nov 04 21:19:44 merlin1991: how else would you communicate with skype contacts? Pidgin? Nov 04 21:19:55 from my pc ;) Nov 04 21:19:59 BTW, I hope someone builds the newest pidgin for the n900 soon, as well as the OTR pluggin Nov 04 21:20:11 The reason we buy an n900 is to do everything with it Nov 04 21:20:18 Including turning off TVs in bars Nov 04 21:20:28 to impress women Nov 04 21:20:41 Macer: you can see the pass in cleartext? Nov 04 21:21:16 i never got the ir to work :-) Nov 04 21:21:28 i would love to use it as a remote Nov 04 21:21:40 i dont know? doubt it Nov 04 21:21:43 IR is incredibly weak Nov 04 21:22:18 like 2ft weak? Nov 04 21:22:23 yeah Nov 04 21:22:34 oh. not worth it then Nov 04 21:23:06 nobody in meego-arm answered if n900 meego works :-) Nov 04 21:23:06 I get it to control my TV over a rnage of ~2m if I aim exactly Nov 04 21:23:08 why do they put these things in it if they suck? Nov 04 21:23:22 whatever4ever: marketing? Nov 04 21:23:27 Seriously? Nov 04 21:23:33 God they suck at marketing Nov 04 21:23:36 or they thought it would have a better usr later Nov 04 21:23:39 use Nov 04 21:23:47 Nokia is so damn bad at it. Probably good tech guys though Nov 04 21:24:13 they have awesome engineers and their phones are incredibly well built Nov 04 21:24:18 compared to htc Nov 04 21:24:26 * DocScrutinizer pondered to pimp the IR LED several times Nov 04 21:24:34 i am so happy i dont need to use this g2 anymote Nov 04 21:24:36 If they made some elegant software for universal remove. Like send every off code when you push the off button (so you turn off any tv without configuring it) Nov 04 21:24:44 there is an ir led? Nov 04 21:24:51 technically it could be 10 times as strong as it is Nov 04 21:25:16 whatever4ever: people cant write that? Nov 04 21:25:19 heh Nov 04 21:25:33 DocScrutinizer: is it a software limiter? Nov 04 21:25:35 whatever4ever: that's called tvbgone Nov 04 21:25:36 They can, but if you make the hardware then it should probably come with software that demonstrates teh HW functionality Nov 04 21:25:38 like the fm trans Nov 04 21:25:46 tvbgone exists? Nov 04 21:25:54 I waaaaaaaaaaaant Nov 04 21:25:55 lol Nov 04 21:26:26 the fm trans was set artificially low wasnt it? Nov 04 21:26:26 Macer: nope, hw Nov 04 21:26:33 Seriously though, I'm really curious why some things succeed and some fail (and mostly the lessons learned from such events). So we know out of the smart phones the n900 had some of the least R&D funds spent Nov 04 21:26:35 oh Nov 04 21:26:59 whatever4ever: and amazing it is one of the most awesome phones made Nov 04 21:27:03 lol Nov 04 21:27:17 i wish someone would write a new ui for it Nov 04 21:27:24 and ditch hildon Nov 04 21:27:39 DocScrutinizer: I was going to ask you... If you were making some new device... lets say, where you wanted the best coverage in the US, but didn't need much bandwidth or "data" - what would you choose? Nov 04 21:27:43 DocScrutinizer: is that even possible? Nov 04 21:27:56 The pager protocol is an option, but the coverage isn't as good as I expected (for two way) Nov 04 21:28:08 hf Nov 04 21:28:10 lol Nov 04 21:28:29 http://maemo.org/packages/view/tvbgone/ Nov 04 21:28:32 Maybe I can get an n950 from my nokia friend Nov 04 21:28:33 get a sat phone Nov 04 21:28:46 that probably has the best coverage Nov 04 21:28:49 no, I'm talking about a service for a cheap device with an antenna that is low cost Nov 04 21:29:01 I was thinking 2g Nov 04 21:29:11 but the overhead is too high for my conceptual device Nov 04 21:29:21 wlan and free hotspots Nov 04 21:29:22 :-D Nov 04 21:29:42 coverage for anything uhf will always depend on towers Nov 04 21:29:53 except sat Nov 04 21:30:33 omg i want my n900 to finish charging both batteries. it has been months since my other one broke. Nov 04 21:30:42 get an external charger Nov 04 21:30:46 I always carry 3 full bats Nov 04 21:30:47 i am Nov 04 21:30:54 whatever4ever: (US device) NFC, seems US carrier world is a daunting and cruel one Nov 04 21:31:11 honestly.... just so i dont have to touch the usb port Nov 04 21:31:11 For sure Nov 04 21:31:23 exactly, NFC Nov 04 21:31:25 i need a n900 supported charging pad Nov 04 21:31:34 So with in mind that NFC is good enough, what would you pick? Nov 04 21:31:46 We're trying to get overhead as low as possible in this concept Nov 04 21:31:47 :) Nov 04 21:31:52 hf Nov 04 21:31:56 NFC != near filed comm, here Nov 04 21:31:59 :-P Nov 04 21:32:34 i thought it meant no fking clue Nov 04 21:32:44 yep Nov 04 21:32:54 != near field? Nov 04 21:33:31 maybe you still need CDMA in USA to get good coverage. OR sth like N9 octoband modem Nov 04 21:34:02 as a lot of mad carriers drop 2G to use the same bands for 3G now Nov 04 21:34:12 Are there any benefits to CDMA? Someone was arguing something, I don't remember... Less power? Nov 04 21:34:23 not really Nov 04 21:35:25 Would you recommend a specific antenna to use that would allow for use on some long range low bandwidth freq & NFC? Nov 04 21:36:00 sorry you lost me Nov 04 21:36:30 NFC is a compleltey seperate radio. Nov 04 21:36:37 It is not related to any radios in the n900 Nov 04 21:37:12 I'm talking about the hardware of a device Nov 04 21:37:14 and not suited for voice communication, nor for any mobile communication Nov 04 21:37:19 Sharing antenna and chips make it cheaper Nov 04 21:37:31 Stuff that works indoors/basements is bad ass Nov 04 21:37:51 That's why I was thinking about the pager protocols Nov 04 21:38:02 don't have to transfer much data here Nov 04 21:38:04 whatever4ever: It doesn't work that way. Nov 04 21:38:14 Sharing antennas and chips does often not make it cheaper. Nov 04 21:38:31 Especially if the frequencies are seperated enough. Nov 04 21:38:42 why? Nov 04 21:38:54 (You can recommend a book if you want, that'd be helpful) Nov 04 21:39:43 For a similar reason why your car does not have a power takeoff from the gearbox for the interior fans. Nov 04 21:39:50 It just doesn't work. Nov 04 21:40:04 ##electronics may be able to point you to a suitable book. Nov 04 21:40:08 Or #hamradio Nov 04 21:40:08 Yeah, I don't know much EE Nov 04 21:41:38 K Nov 04 21:41:46 You got an n950? Nov 04 21:41:59 I might have to switch to android as my main device when n900 dies Nov 04 21:42:02 Yes. Nov 04 21:42:05 :/ Nov 04 21:42:05 Hoping some mini comp will come out Nov 04 21:42:10 Hope so too. Nov 04 21:42:12 mininetbook Nov 04 21:42:16 ill prolly switch to a dumbphone :| Nov 04 21:42:21 flipphones back in! Nov 04 21:42:35 *flips the screen of the mini netbook open with thumb* Nov 04 21:42:46 I never really used the bits which integrate the phone with the n900 Nov 04 21:42:55 I can't do the N9 lack of keyboard Nov 04 21:43:17 The part that integrates it for me is the fact that it is in one physical object Nov 04 21:43:18 A dumbphone, used with a mini-tablet thingy would work OK for me (modulo the whole two devices thing) Nov 04 21:43:24 yeah Nov 04 21:43:45 Doubling device count = fail. Nov 04 21:44:28 I wonder why they haven't come out with modular device Nov 04 21:44:29 s Nov 04 21:44:31 like legos Nov 04 21:44:36 "what an accelerometer?" Nov 04 21:44:44 That's the red add on right there! Nov 04 21:44:49 doesn't fly Nov 04 21:44:56 Why couldn't it? Nov 04 21:45:05 too much mech overhead# Nov 04 21:45:07 Modular has costs. Nov 04 21:45:09 I realize it is harder, but that is the direction PC hardware went 20 years ago Nov 04 21:45:23 We make each part really well and think about how they fit together Nov 04 21:45:24 Diddn't I write this down somewhere. Nov 04 21:45:26 Maybe not. Nov 04 21:45:28 Anyway. Nov 04 21:45:32 As an example. Nov 04 21:45:37 The costs of modular. Nov 04 21:45:50 * DocScrutinizer fetches popcorn Nov 04 21:45:53 Didn't modular decrease costs for x86? Nov 04 21:45:58 "PCs" Nov 04 21:45:58 A 3G modem may have a 3*2cm area of PCB. Nov 04 21:46:05 It's stuck on the 'motherboard' Nov 04 21:46:39 If you modularise the design, then you need to have a slot or hole in the case, where you can put this. It's got to have a wrap round the modem so it can be safely touched. Nov 04 21:47:04 needs heatsink Nov 04 21:47:10 antenna plug Nov 04 21:47:14 It's got to have antistatic protection on both sides of the connector - a few dozen components. And decoupling. Nov 04 21:47:18 B2B-connectors Nov 04 21:47:42 And then you runinto the issue that the antenna in the device won't work for the waveband you want. Nov 04 21:47:54 FAT B2B-connectors that can cope with several Ampere of surge current Nov 04 21:47:57 So it would have to be designed so that all antennae are on the main device with the PCB Nov 04 21:48:17 Plus - if you leave 'slack' space in the modem bay, for expansion, you're wasting that space in the first product. Nov 04 21:48:20 what about IRs, accelerometers, compasses, etc? Nov 04 21:48:34 An accel is a 3*3*0.8mm chip. Nov 04 21:48:54 I wish I had a book on this stuff entitled "what things are" Nov 04 21:48:56 If it's soldered to the PCB, it takes up that area, and adds maybe $.10 + the accel cost to the design. Nov 04 21:49:09 (so $1 total) Nov 04 21:49:53 If it's modularised, that's got to be in a format the user can physically connect it to the phone, it's got to have two connectors, another half dozen components that aren't required, and it makes the mechanical design of the case lots harder. Nov 04 21:50:12 Plus, you have the seperate retail costs of selling it to the user. Nov 04 21:50:41 It's going to be really hard to keep the costs for that simple chip on a tiny board to below $10/device, and $.5/device for each phone it's not in. Nov 04 21:50:45 and mere BOM will be ~10$ istead 1$ Nov 04 21:51:27 In broad outline. If you modularise the device, it's going to be half the reliability (optimistically), twice the price, twice the volume. Nov 04 21:51:38 probably the B2B connector is more expensive than the accel chip ;-P Nov 04 21:51:44 and closing on twice the weight. Nov 04 21:53:36 so leave out the accel chip (3 * 3 * 0.8mm, 1$), add a B2B-connector instead ( 2 * 10 * 1.2mm, 2$) - profit :-D Nov 04 21:53:47 What about dongles? Also, how did you learn about this? Nov 04 21:54:18 Dongles? Nov 04 21:54:33 I learned about it by designing stuff at home, and reading lots about lectronics. Nov 04 21:54:37 But they don't even put a lot of chips in there for the masses because "who needs an FM transmitter, better to have a polished iphone with core func" Nov 04 21:54:37 learn? read magazines and books for 45 years Nov 04 21:54:51 dongles like external things that connect via bluetooth Nov 04 21:55:02 What did you make at home? Nov 04 21:55:28 That is in some ways free - though it adds to battery use, but it means the device is a whole lot more clunky as you need to keep lots of boxes, and charge them all. Nov 04 21:55:49 Not ended up making much - designed various stuff from teeny cameras on. Nov 04 21:56:02 hmm, I wonder how many dongles could work via induction... they'd have to be too close Nov 04 21:56:24 meh Nov 04 21:58:01 So how do we get them to put both 1) a lot of R&D and 2) lots of cool gadgets into a device for people like us? Nov 04 21:58:13 n900 has #2, iphone&android has #1 Nov 04 21:58:20 1+2=3 omg Nov 04 21:58:28 It's hard. Nov 04 21:58:40 You need - to make a good stab at a smartphone - several million dollars. Nov 04 21:59:20 And I guess the software is another issue Nov 04 21:59:34 Yes. Nov 04 21:59:34 Like on the n900 being able to run x86 apps via screen remotely Nov 04 21:59:43 In some ways, the hardware is the easy part. Nov 04 22:00:17 for those who know how to design hw, yeah :-D Nov 04 22:00:58 otoh no update releases for hw :-/ Nov 04 22:01:20 a bug is a bug stays a bug, on EE Nov 04 22:01:35 catch in in prototype testing or live with it Nov 04 22:02:29 the cases where you can work around hw bugs with sw patches are really really rare Nov 04 22:02:50 (and one of my favourite disciplines) Nov 04 22:03:13 Hardware is 'simple'. Nov 04 22:03:35 You get X,Y,Z connected together in the correct way so they can all talk as defined by the manufacturer. Nov 04 22:03:43 This is 'easy'. Nov 04 22:03:52 What is the major functionality that android lacks that maemo/meego has? Nov 04 22:04:07 Software is hard. You have to create your own millions of lines of code. Nov 04 22:04:07 ... just to be blunt Nov 04 22:04:42 I wonder how much of the speed difference between n900 & android phones is the software and how much is the hardware Nov 04 22:06:25 whatever4ever: the n900 sucks Nov 04 22:06:37 it's *constantly* swapping, and the cpu is not exactly fast Nov 04 22:06:54 so the question would apply to that as: how much of that is because of software and how much because of HW Nov 04 22:07:07 the software is really good Nov 04 22:10:00 orly Nov 04 22:10:13 So if someone got meego/maemo working on a nexus one then it would be sick? Nov 04 22:23:17 thanks for the guidance Speedevil and DocScrutinizer Nov 04 22:23:43 If you've ideas about how to pack a lot of devices into a small place, then I'd love to hear them Nov 04 22:25:07 Well - current designs pretty much do that. Nov 04 22:25:18 You get a many layer PCB, and solder teh components to it. Nov 04 22:25:24 You can get stupid component density. Nov 04 22:25:33 what do you think about the price difference and resistive vs capacitive Nov 04 22:25:46 There are some PoCs out there that do fairly light touch multitouch resistive Nov 04 22:25:46 I'm divided. Nov 04 22:26:00 I like the n900 resistive. Nov 04 22:26:08 Same, but that makes me biased Nov 04 22:26:09 If it did multitouch, it would be near-perfect. Nov 04 22:26:13 stantum Nov 04 22:26:21 The n950 (and I assume the n9) is close. Nov 04 22:26:23 A lot of companies claim that people can't use/don't like resistive Nov 04 22:26:26 Err - hard Nov 04 22:26:41 What's that DocScrutinizer, the price? Nov 04 22:26:43 Precisely selecting things is hard. Nov 04 22:26:48 Stantum = tin Nov 04 22:27:07 The coating on resistive displays is largely indum-tin-oxide coating on plastic/glass. Nov 04 22:27:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv3X5y-ajtc Nov 04 22:27:22 strandum would probably be a lot to lisence Nov 04 22:27:49 Also - capacitive dies if you get the tiniest drops of water on the device. Nov 04 22:27:59 not permanently.. Nov 04 22:28:20 yes, when I lived in chicago, I'd use my n900 with gloves and people would ask about it Nov 04 22:28:36 No, not permenantly. Nov 04 22:28:47 But it can be useless until completely absolutely dry. Nov 04 22:29:01 Which causes obvious issues if you absolutely need to look something up. Nov 04 22:29:03 I'm curious how much a really good resistive touch screen would cost to lisence Nov 04 22:29:27 not a lot Nov 04 22:29:32 people don't like resistive Nov 04 22:29:54 Or managers. Nov 04 22:30:07 SpeedEvil: capacitive deals with water quite well Nov 04 22:30:11 at least one in n8 Nov 04 22:30:15 jacekowski: n950 Nov 04 22:32:38 Stantum >> * Nov 04 22:33:38 only advantage of c-ts: it can be hard glass Nov 04 22:34:27 Indeed. Nov 04 22:34:58 How long with the n950 have support? Nov 04 22:35:13 I mean, how useful it will be in the future for general use? Nov 04 22:35:19 Might get one from a friend Nov 04 22:36:17 The n950 is not legally saleable or transferrable. Nov 04 22:36:27 At least if it's under teh same agreements we got. Nov 04 22:36:57 What's transferrable mean? Nov 04 22:37:04 Giveable Nov 04 22:37:12 commercial DDP forbids sale for iirc 2 years Nov 04 22:37:32 Yeah, if the consequences are severe I don't think my friend will give me one Nov 04 22:39:20 also you have to be aware N950 won't see much support of any kind in the future Nov 04 22:39:30 n950 won't play flash? Nov 04 22:39:31 http://versusio.com/en/google-nexus-prime-vs-nokia-n950 Nov 04 22:39:47 No flash. Nov 04 22:40:33 n900 even does that Nov 04 22:40:37 What's the deal? Nov 04 22:40:50 Nokia soon will stop to provide updates for this exotic Nov 04 22:41:39 not much sense in supporting a "community" of some few 1000 N950 "owners" Nov 04 22:42:39 Just thought it would be the same as the community of n9 users Nov 04 22:42:44 though tht eonly diff was a HW keyboard Nov 04 22:42:59 at some point in time Nokia will offer to swap the N950 for a N9, and then they stop supporting N950 completely Nov 04 22:43:25 no, the devices are fundamentally incompatible Nov 04 22:43:37 On a low-level basis. Nov 04 22:43:44 just similar enough to develop on N950 for N9 Nov 04 22:43:47 On a software level, they are pretty compatible. Nov 04 22:43:49 I thought the n950 was build to help dev for the n9 Nov 04 22:43:53 oh Nov 04 22:43:55 okay Nov 04 22:44:08 On an application and most upper-level UI stuff they are similar. Nov 04 22:44:13 Are you guys going to use the n9 as your main phone? Nov 04 22:44:16 On a very low level basis, not-so-much. Nov 04 22:44:24 How will you manage without the HW kb? Nov 04 22:44:24 i think the n950 was meant to be released as its own model until elop came along... Nov 04 22:44:27 :/ Nov 04 22:44:28 a wrist keyboard? Nov 04 22:44:29 Speaking personally, though I have a n950, I'm sticking for the n900. Nov 04 22:44:34 sticking with Nov 04 22:44:42 same here Nov 04 22:44:46 http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/2009/07/wrist.jpg Nov 04 22:44:56 until? Nov 04 22:44:58 /wrist Nov 04 22:45:12 whatever4ever: Until it becomes unusable, or something better comes along. Nov 04 22:45:12 MGS4! Nov 04 22:45:31 I miss that game Nov 04 23:04:31 you guys think you've optimized your n900 well? Nov 04 23:04:41 If so, then can you pastebin a ps -A Nov 04 23:04:53 DocScrutinizer: this newer stable cssu release Nov 04 23:04:58 will everybody be forced to flash it? Nov 04 23:05:08 or is it a simple pkg manager OS update? Nov 04 23:05:40 SpeedEvil: i agree. i just bought a replacement n900 :) Nov 04 23:05:45 Can the Contacts app be modified? Nov 04 23:05:57 I want to add a more functional groups feature Nov 04 23:05:59 you're free to choose S or T CSSU, you can't switch on the fly though Nov 04 23:06:18 S = Stable T = Testing ? Nov 04 23:06:24 yup Nov 04 23:06:30 can't i just install both and use bootmenu to hotswap? Nov 04 23:06:33 :) Nov 04 23:06:39 lol Nov 04 23:06:39 *burp* Nov 04 23:06:54 it has been a few months since i've had an n900 Nov 04 23:07:03 i am thinking of the wrong thing Nov 04 23:07:13 the nand backup thing Nov 04 23:07:39 it will come back to me later :) the thing you use to back the phone up to the SD Nov 04 23:08:10 DocScrutinizer: but once installed cssu test will simply update through pkg manager? Nov 04 23:08:11 Macer: free to choose - on installation of CSSU Nov 04 23:08:18 sure Nov 04 23:08:28 ok. i'd go wtih testing then Nov 04 23:08:33 stable is for the weak Nov 04 23:08:40 :shrug: Nov 04 23:08:43 damn how can i not remember the name of the boot thing to back up Nov 04 23:08:52 backupmenu Nov 04 23:08:52 it eludes me.. it has been quite a while Nov 04 23:08:58 ah.. yes! backupmenu Nov 04 23:09:05 can't you hotswap from S to T with that? Nov 04 23:09:40 just flash one then the other and make a backup of each and restore when you want to swap between the two? Nov 04 23:09:56 or is that not practical? Nov 04 23:11:22 i am sorry. i am only asking because i would rather flash my n900 now Nov 04 23:11:31 to get cssu up and running on it then tweak it out Nov 04 23:11:46 and get back to the golden days of having an awesome n900 again lol Nov 04 23:13:17 so, can one modify the Contacts app? Nov 04 23:13:23 I want to add group functionality Nov 04 23:13:51 How do you guys not miss calls when fucking with your n900s so much? Nov 04 23:17:05 How to know how many capacity of battery remains? Nov 04 23:17:16 morning here :) Nov 04 23:17:25 You can't mofidy the contacts app, it's closed. Nov 04 23:18:22 SpeedEvil: no, I mean to get the info of battery, not contacts Nov 04 23:19:48 I was answering whatever4ever's comment. Nov 04 23:20:13 Do you mean the current state of the battery, or its remaining life? Nov 04 23:20:22 SpeedEvil: I should have guessed that :) Nov 04 23:20:29 SpeedEvil: remaining life Nov 04 23:20:39 LaoLang_cool: hal-device bme may be what you are looking for. Nov 04 23:20:56 I think it should be in /proc subdir, but can't remember exactly Nov 04 23:23:01 NIN101: thanks, I will have a look at it. anyway, where can I find batt infos by cli cmd? Nov 04 23:25:16 See the scripts and other stuff referred to on http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Charge_Meter Nov 04 23:26:16 or lshal|grep bat Nov 04 23:26:45 that too Nov 04 23:27:43 DocScrutinizer51: that's what I'm looking for exactly, thank you! Nov 04 23:28:57 Who makes a shitty app on an open platform and then doesn't release source? Nov 04 23:28:59 fkn A Nov 04 23:29:01 I want groups Nov 04 23:29:35 Unfortunately, the openness of the platform doesn't really extend to screwing withthe core of the platform. Nov 04 23:30:13 Contacts is just an app, what puts it closer to the core? Nov 04 23:30:34 the core is open Nov 04 23:31:03 it's nokia's apps and some middleware that's not Nov 04 23:32:30 jonwil: got sth to RE for you: thr fsckng mce plugins Nov 04 23:33:02 Already tried that and no, I cant reverse engineer the MCE plugins Nov 04 23:33:04 my kbd backlight acts silly Nov 04 23:33:09 i.e. tried and gave up Nov 04 23:33:15 ooh Nov 04 23:33:20 cloning them that is Nov 04 23:33:27 I can find out more about what they might actually do Nov 04 23:33:32 if you name the specific plugin Nov 04 23:33:39 but I cant actually clone any of em, too complex Nov 04 23:34:02 last time I tried, MCE went ape-shit and nearly stuffed things up Nov 04 23:34:12 hah Nov 04 23:35:24 so do you want me to find out what any of the plugins do? Nov 04 23:35:55 If not, I will get back to reverse engineering eal-client :) Nov 04 23:36:02 aka tablet-browser-view-test Nov 04 23:36:15 which is different to the eal-client I posted to the list before :P Nov 04 23:36:38 well, abroad atm. Will ponder about it later Nov 04 23:52:32 backupmenu is still in devel Nov 04 23:52:33 ? Nov 04 23:52:47 no offense but are there even enough people to promote pkgs nowadays? Nov 04 23:55:03 So if they drop support on the n900/maemo, then why the fuck don't they release the source for the ""core"" apps?! Nov 04 23:55:42 because they want to keep the patent Nov 04 23:55:55 and it is possible for some reason or another they may use that base code again in something new Nov 04 23:56:42 patent for what? Nov 04 23:56:46 hildon? Nov 04 23:56:47 haha Nov 04 23:57:00 omg, GAY Nov 04 23:57:16 (had to revert to high school vernacular, no other descriptors work) Nov 04 23:57:26 you would be surprised what patents hildon has that someone else may infringe :) Nov 04 23:57:31 patents are idiotic Nov 04 23:57:36 like "home button on the top right" Nov 04 23:57:38 stuff like that Nov 04 23:57:44 software ones are ridiculousnes Nov 04 23:57:46 incredibly vague Nov 04 23:58:40 ALRIGHTY. let me drop my G2 8GB SD into this n900 Nov 04 23:58:45 and roll the G2 over with my car Nov 04 23:58:48 bbiab Nov 04 23:58:57 so happy to have an n900 again! Nov 04 23:59:00 :') Nov 05 00:02:06 libacl libattr Nov 05 00:02:15 ugh... they seriously need to add those to backupmenu deps Nov 05 00:03:02 cool app by your description *installing* (Backupmenu) Nov 05 00:03:33 yeah. it helped me once before Nov 05 00:03:43 it is similar to clockwork for android Nov 05 00:04:16 When I've some time I'd like to build the newest pidgin and finch and OTR for the n900 Nov 05 00:04:24 OTR hasn't worked in a year Nov 05 00:05:30 is telepathy closed? Nov 05 00:05:37 conversations etc? Nov 05 00:05:59 If it is part of "core" whatever that is Nov 05 00:06:34 the conversations UI (rtcom-messaging-ui) is closed source Nov 05 00:06:38 Most of telepathy is open Nov 05 00:06:56 telepathy-ring (which handles calls and SMS) is closed because it talks to the cellular services daemon Nov 05 00:07:07 which is the low-level daemon that handles cell modem stuff Nov 05 00:07:49 libacl is called libacl1? Nov 05 00:07:50 lol Nov 05 00:08:00 wtf Nov 05 00:09:22 I thought we chose maemo over android because it was "more open" Nov 05 00:09:25 What does that mean? Nov 05 00:09:29 It isn't... Nov 05 00:09:59 It is, generally. Nov 05 00:10:43 whatever4ever: it isn't, no. Nov 05 00:10:50 the only thing Maemo has over Android is X11 Nov 05 00:11:13 luke-jr: interesting insight Nov 05 00:11:36 can you use screen and get a remote X11 in android? Nov 05 00:11:52 … Nov 05 00:12:25 ? Nov 05 00:14:06 i heard there was an xserver for android Nov 05 00:14:09 i never used it Nov 05 00:14:11 or tried it tho Nov 05 00:14:25 but i have to agree with luke-jr .. this "open" stuff is bs Nov 05 00:14:44 it is something that companies used to say to sound like they were a part of the developer community :) Nov 05 00:14:50 just marketing Nov 05 00:16:21 marketing to the 1%, heh Nov 05 00:17:24 well.. developers have this sick thing Nov 05 00:17:34 where they hear "we are making an open os" and start to believe it Nov 05 00:17:42 then find out a few years later that most of the stuff is closed Nov 05 00:18:00 and that they simply allowed nokia to use their efforts in order to not pay anybody Nov 05 00:18:29 There are many degrees of openness. From unlocked bootloader and nothing. Through kernel source and closed drivers, to kernel source and open drivers, to 'full' open - with source for almost everything. Nov 05 00:18:34 i mean why pay developers when you can dupe a "community" into believing you are all about being "open" .. lol.. what a racket Nov 05 00:19:04 SpeedEvil: nothing is every 100% closed Nov 05 00:19:06 SpeedEvil: show me a fully open device and i will show you a flying pink elephant Nov 05 00:19:08 haha Nov 05 00:19:09 The neo1973/freerunner is the only phone that was the last. Nov 05 00:19:13 anything less than 100% open is therefore "closed" Nov 05 00:19:46 i blame china Nov 05 00:19:47 The second-last probably describes both harmattan, fremantle, and android to a degree with some devices. Nov 05 00:20:16 And yes, there are a regrettable number of chinese 'closed' tablets without even GPL offers, running android. Nov 05 00:20:32 While they may have reimplemented the linux kernel as non-GPL, I have some doubts. Nov 05 00:20:50 nice.. i have backupmenu installed Nov 05 00:21:12 SpeedEvil: there is no such thing as "open" Nov 05 00:21:17 it is just a scam Nov 05 00:21:44 Macer: neo1973/freerunner was quite open. Nov 05 00:21:51 the only way for there to be a truly open mobile device would be for the "community" to make their own cell company Nov 05 00:22:03 And, yes. Nov 05 00:22:13 then engineer devices that they didn't care would be copied and mass produced by india, china, russia, etc Nov 05 00:22:14 To a degree. Nov 05 00:22:24 I don't personally care about a closed cellmo. Nov 05 00:22:25 there is no such thing as a degree.. it is a scam Nov 05 00:22:34 There are good reasons for it. Nov 05 00:22:36 it is a cheap way for companies to get developers to do their dirty work Nov 05 00:22:41 for free Nov 05 00:22:47 cheaper than india indians Nov 05 00:23:13 it is why apple is winning.. and nokia is fail Nov 05 00:23:46 why windows is still the largest os market share on a pc and linux is always the "one that might" Nov 05 00:23:57 open is a lie Nov 05 00:24:32 not only is it a lie... but you have communities forking and branching and getting pissy and ruining any type of centralization which is where the advantage is with a closed source Nov 05 00:24:33 Computing is heading in scary directions. Nov 05 00:24:47 explain Nov 05 00:24:51 See the recent mac closed apps thing. Nov 05 00:25:00 fuck macs Nov 05 00:25:00 explain? Nov 05 00:25:02 heh Nov 05 00:25:09 Sure powerful people have more power Nov 05 00:25:12 apple is winning because there is an overlord that says what is what Nov 05 00:25:13 but so do novices Nov 05 00:25:15 SpeedEvil: sandboxing isn't a bad idea for security Nov 05 00:25:19 whatever4ever: apple was about to go bankrupt Nov 05 00:25:24 at least when not done badly Nov 05 00:25:35 so i refuse to listen to the "apple was rich" theory Nov 05 00:25:40 I have to use a lame macbook pro at work, but I triple boot it Nov 05 00:25:49 they were pulled from the ashes by the ipod.. and a series of closed devices Nov 05 00:25:57 Apple is fairly rich, actually Nov 05 00:26:00 because if you didn't listen to the overlord you were fired Nov 05 00:26:02 they are now Nov 05 00:26:04 they weren't earlier Nov 05 00:26:07 one can tell by $/share Nov 05 00:26:10 they were losing so bad to MS Nov 05 00:26:20 that they were on the verge of finding a buyer or going bankrupt Nov 05 00:26:22 Well it is obvious what we want Nov 05 00:26:29 We just need to figure out how to market technology better Nov 05 00:26:35 no Nov 05 00:26:43 *we* as in powerusers/linuxerz Nov 05 00:26:47 a community needs to make technology that someone actually wants Nov 05 00:26:48 and Nov 05 00:26:57 wmarone: Sandboxing - done sanely - if there is a way to get out of the sandbox with user approval. Nov 05 00:26:59 is open Nov 05 00:27:07 meaning the community would have to engineer its own device Nov 05 00:27:08 fab it Nov 05 00:27:10 build it Nov 05 00:27:12 distribute it Nov 05 00:27:20 and make enough money off of it to cover all of it Nov 05 00:27:20 SpeedEvil: of course, I operate under the assumption that end-user control is implicit ;) Nov 05 00:27:22 Too much work/coordination Nov 05 00:27:23 wmarone: sandboxing, and the assumption that the OS knows best and makes assumptions about data transfer costs, and ... Nov 05 00:27:27 exactly Nov 05 00:27:31 which is why being open is a lie Nov 05 00:27:39 it works with some things Nov 05 00:27:42 there is no money in being open other than sounding open for a good market bite Nov 05 00:27:42 like the web runs on OSS Nov 05 00:27:50 We just need to figure it for HW Nov 05 00:27:58 The fundamental problem is for 'community needs to' Nov 05 00:28:00 3d printers should solve that eventually Nov 05 00:28:00 Is money. Nov 05 00:28:01 oh the software is there Nov 05 00:28:09 the hardware isn't Nov 05 00:28:13 there is NO open hardware Nov 05 00:28:16 Someone needs to sit down and plonk a fucking huge chunk of cash on the table. Nov 05 00:28:21 NOTHING Nov 05 00:28:38 SpeedEvil: exactly. but the people with money aren't going to do it unless they see a return Nov 05 00:28:45 Macer: I'd do it. Nov 05 00:28:46 and NO company will do it because they have shareholders Nov 05 00:28:48 lol Nov 05 00:28:52 But ~$500 isn't going very far. Nov 05 00:28:58 It isn't just money Nov 05 00:29:01 which is why nokia pulled away from symbian, maemo, and meego Nov 05 00:29:07 When there the right conditions and the right startup Nov 05 00:29:09 because shareholders are pissed Nov 05 00:29:09 it'll happen Nov 05 00:29:13 If I had ~$50m spare, I might give it a go. Nov 05 00:29:16 that will never happen Nov 05 00:29:24 With perhaps $20m Nov 05 00:29:25 SpeedEvil: yoou wouldn't even need that much Nov 05 00:29:25 or when HW for mobiles settles down Nov 05 00:29:28 into something like x86 Nov 05 00:29:28 you would need like 10m Nov 05 00:29:34 or at least that standard Nov 05 00:29:35 and a fully open device Nov 05 00:29:36 Macer: they're pissed cause Nokia was doing FOSS, right. It couldn't have anything to do with the incompetent internal management that stalled the company for years? Nov 05 00:29:37 lol Nov 05 00:29:40 which you will never find Nov 05 00:29:40 Macer: you'd need 10m for one fully open device. Nov 05 00:29:51 Macer: produced in high volumes with a shiny factor. Nov 05 00:29:51 SpeedEvil: not if you find a good MIT engineer :) Nov 05 00:29:57 wmarone: it isn't FOSS Nov 05 00:30:02 Macer: It's _WAAAAY_ more than one engineer. Nov 05 00:30:09 whatever4ever: enough of it was Nov 05 00:30:13 took 3 to make the first apple Nov 05 00:30:17 out of wood Nov 05 00:30:18 lol Nov 05 00:30:26 http://www.mauve.plus.com/opensourcehw.txt Nov 05 00:30:34 SpeedEvil: so either way Nov 05 00:30:42 saying there is a degree of open is being duped Nov 05 00:30:43 Macer: The first apple was _orders_of_magnitude easier than contempory devices for many reasons. Nov 05 00:30:47 there is no such thing Nov 05 00:30:50 Why opensource hardware is hard. Nov 05 00:30:57 Macer: yes, there is. Nov 05 00:31:18 Macer: If you go all the way to the nutty end, you insist on specs for everything. Nov 05 00:31:22 lol... not as far as a mobile device is concerned.. not even PCs... even ubuntu has decided to rely on closed blobs Nov 05 00:31:36 Macer: what closed blobs? Nov 05 00:31:37 rely vs accept Nov 05 00:31:39 This will end up costing you tens of millions easy. Nov 05 00:31:50 closed drivers are necessary today due to nvidia & ati Nov 05 00:31:55 for good linux distros Nov 05 00:31:58 whatever4ever: exactly Nov 05 00:32:08 And I personally don't care that much about some closed blobs. Nov 05 00:32:10 they are necessary becuse ati and nvidia don't want to paste their IP to the entire planet Nov 05 00:32:13 They're not the big issue. Nov 05 00:32:14 This isn't a catstrophie Nov 05 00:32:20 and have the chinese make fake cards Nov 05 00:32:21 :) Nov 05 00:32:27 every company is thinking the same thing Nov 05 00:32:28 We just all need to agree on an organized effort Nov 05 00:32:30 The big issue is can you totally gut and reinvent the OS. Nov 05 00:32:36 we'd need like 2 PMs from this channel Nov 05 00:32:37 project managers Nov 05 00:32:43 Closed graphics drivers don't really harm that. Nov 05 00:32:44 SpeedEvil: if you engineered an open phone.. companies would take it.. and close it Nov 05 00:32:48 lol Nov 05 00:32:48 make some sites and ways of organizing the maemo community Nov 05 00:33:02 use our resources together Nov 05 00:33:09 a lot of us know great HW and SW guys Nov 05 00:33:21 get a prototype Nov 05 00:33:24 Macer: In many countries, it's viable to sell direct to consumers, not through nets. Nov 05 00:33:28 get VC'd and start a company Nov 05 00:33:30 whatever4ever: http://www.mauve.plus.com/opensourcehw.txt Nov 05 00:33:32 Those are the steps^ Nov 05 00:33:36 if you're so inclined Nov 05 00:33:51 whatever4ever: A prototype is going to cost ~$50K at least - neglecting thousands of hours of skilled dev time. Nov 05 00:33:55 not saying the HW will be open Nov 05 00:34:00 SpeedEvil: if you managed to make a truly open phone then you would have a huge base of buyers Nov 05 00:34:10 you could probably charge $600+ per device Nov 05 00:34:15 but it will never happen Nov 05 00:34:16 :) Nov 05 00:34:17 Macer: You can't legally sell a truly open phone in many countries. Nov 05 00:34:22 so this open crap is dreaming Nov 05 00:34:49 Macer: are you standing in for luke-jr as the resident absolutist? Nov 05 00:34:49 it is almost like a bunch of aimless people not knowing where to go Nov 05 00:34:50 Once the first person has misused it to do phone hacking, you have to reengineer it, or you will be guilty of the 'selling cellphone hacking tools' law in the UK, for example. Nov 05 00:35:04 wmarone: lol. no.. i am being a realist Nov 05 00:35:11 You're being an ass-hat. Nov 05 00:35:22 No PC is open. Nov 05 00:35:25 a truly open device is impossible and the sun will turn into a red giant before anybody ever sees it Nov 05 00:35:29 A little too much absolutism here Nov 05 00:35:48 It has numerous closed firmware blobs, in everything from the keyboard, to the chipset. Nov 05 00:35:51 whatever4ever: pablo escobar swore that cocaine would be the liquor of the 80s Nov 05 00:35:54 :) Nov 05 00:36:04 and that cocaine was only in prohibition Nov 05 00:36:35 A phone as open as the average PC would be a _huge_ step forward. Nov 05 00:36:55 SpeedEvil: irc will be around for decades .... when we are 80 in #maemo... show me anything that is open Nov 05 00:36:59 This was - pretty much - the state of the neo1973/freerunner. Nov 05 00:37:01 anything at all :) Nov 05 00:37:14 See above comments about the scary way computing is going. Nov 05 00:37:17 The "closed blobs" argument doesn't apply to ATI anymore Nov 05 00:37:18 * DocScrutinizer microwaves some more popcorn Nov 05 00:37:21 coke isn't very good Nov 05 00:37:23 have you tried it? Nov 05 00:37:31 ATI published their specs Nov 05 00:37:33 we've adderall, which even people who've done a lot of coke say is better Nov 05 00:37:41 whatever4ever: the point is that being a drug dealer he expected it to all work out Nov 05 00:37:43 (4 amphetamines in one) Nov 05 00:37:46 while the rest of the world didn't :) Nov 05 00:37:56 what's the parallel here? Nov 05 00:37:57 jonwil: It applies to the boot-rom in the chipset, the microcode in the CPU, ... Nov 05 00:38:34 honestly ... luke-jr may sound like a jerk... but he does make a valid point :) Nov 05 00:39:34 anywas.. i am going to tweak my n900 now :) Nov 05 00:39:43 Insisting on phones being more open than the current crop of PCs is silly. Nov 05 00:39:52 yeah Nov 05 00:39:56 still happy to have one.. but for me to sit there and say i have it because it is an awesome open device would be a lie.. i like it because it is like running debian in my pocket Nov 05 00:40:06 The current crop of PCs is acceptably open. Nov 05 00:40:13 yep Nov 05 00:40:15 There are issues. But... Nov 05 00:40:16 i don't care if it is open or closed as long as it works the way i want which it does Nov 05 00:40:24 The current crop of PCs is acceptably open Nov 05 00:40:28 it has xterm and x11 Nov 05 00:40:31 win :) Nov 05 00:40:37 Most cellphones are not acceptably open Nov 05 00:40:41 The current crop of phones are not comparably open to PCs. Nov 05 00:40:49 most? none are Nov 05 00:40:51 The N900 is close to acceptable Nov 05 00:40:52 not even the n900 Nov 05 00:40:54 The scary part is that PCs are heading in the cellphone direction. Nov 05 00:40:54 heh Nov 05 00:41:06 haha Nov 05 00:41:09 The n900 - if most phones were like it - is fine. Nov 05 00:41:14 They said you'd have nothing locally about 10 years ago Nov 05 00:41:15 A N900 running MeeGo would be open enough Nov 05 00:41:15 all webapps Nov 05 00:41:19 we saw how that turned out Nov 05 00:41:31 Simply as if most phones were like it, there would be far more community effort in getting stuff done. Nov 05 00:41:36 whatever4ever: and now MS is pushing secure boot in the most inconvenient way possible Nov 05 00:41:40 Rather than people wasting mindspace on 'roms' for android. Nov 05 00:41:53 Or rooting ios. Nov 05 00:42:27 rooting iOS? Nov 05 00:42:29 what's that? Nov 05 00:42:45 oh like jailbrake Nov 05 00:42:47 ok Nov 05 00:42:52 jailbreak :þ Nov 05 00:42:53 Yes. Nov 05 00:43:06 pop pop pop Nov 05 00:43:22 I want to addon the hardware for RFID on my n900 Nov 05 00:43:24 any of you do that? Nov 05 00:43:34 It would be convenient for copying rfid dongles Nov 05 00:43:35 whatever4ever: you - almost - can't. Nov 05 00:43:37 and open doors Nov 05 00:43:43 for realz? Nov 05 00:43:45 I thought I saw a guide Nov 05 00:43:55 whatever4ever: If you find a USB dongle, you in principle could use it with hostmode if you write the software. Nov 05 00:45:21 nvm: http://barrieluv.blogspot.com/2010/06/oyster-in-my-n900.html Nov 05 00:45:22 derp Nov 05 00:45:49 probably the sexiest features of the nexus Nov 05 00:46:23 Well - yes. Nov 05 00:46:32 That's not really related. Nov 05 00:47:33 You can as well say 'I added NFC to my poodle' Nov 05 00:48:08 Doesn't it let you copy and send RFIDs? Nov 05 00:48:14 from like any RFID dongle? Nov 05 00:48:15 No. Nov 05 00:48:21 It's just an oyster card. Nov 05 00:48:38 hmmm, I saw someone copy a rfid key with the nexus one and open a lock Nov 05 00:48:39 It's just attached to different plastic Nov 05 00:48:44 was it not an rfid key? Nov 05 00:49:08 It was not copying the RFID key. Nov 05 00:49:20 It was using the RFID key without any modification. Nov 05 00:49:29 Simply removing it from the normal plastic card. Nov 05 00:49:42 It's exactly the same as duct-taping the card to the n900 Nov 05 00:51:39 Definitely not Nov 05 00:51:50 Someone had a dongle that they put up to a lock to unlock it Nov 05 00:52:00 then this guy put it up to his nexus and copied it with some program Nov 05 00:52:06 and then put his phone up to the lock and upon it Nov 05 00:52:08 opened it Nov 05 00:52:09 at Defcon Nov 05 00:53:23 The above how-to Nov 05 00:55:50 Nothing physical was taken in order to do this Nov 05 00:55:54 now you have me wondering Nov 05 00:56:06 unless you count electrons as physical Nov 05 00:58:09 The above howto is only duct-taping a RFID card to the n900 in a different form. Nov 05 00:58:14 NIN101: oh, I finally realize that `hal-device bme` is a cmd, thanks Nov 05 00:58:19 ;p Nov 05 01:01:17 yw Nov 05 02:01:24 well that was easy Nov 05 02:01:31 Just cloned tablet-browser-view-test :) Nov 05 02:01:33 which is of value Nov 05 02:01:43 since it shows you how to use a tablet browser view widget Nov 05 02:03:34 which is nice because that widget does lots of the work for you Nov 05 02:03:42 including zoom and pan Nov 05 02:03:47 :) Nov 05 02:03:49 scroll Nov 05 02:08:37 merlin1991: Thanks very much for your kind and your sdcv pkg for me :) Nov 05 02:09:02 I've also uploaded it to the official repos, it's in extras-devel Nov 05 02:10:32 merlin1991: so cool! Nov 05 02:11:05 Yup, I've found it Nov 05 02:13:14 I think I now understand pretty much everything there is to know about the microb browser and which stock packages use what part of microb Nov 05 02:19:53 Any one could try to compile weechat for n900? www.weechat.org Nov 05 02:20:08 I prefer it much to irssi Nov 05 02:20:19 tutorial-home-applet uses browser-neteal to talk to the browser daemon. rtcom-messaging-ui does the same (although it claims to use tablet-browser-view it does not) and nokia-maps embeds the browser widget directly via browser-eal Nov 05 02:20:59 merlin1991: could you help once more please? :) Nov 05 02:21:08 what do you need? Nov 05 02:22:31 he wants weechat Nov 05 02:22:40 Could you try to compile weechat for n900 please? It's a irssi like irc client but I like it more than irssi, its webpage is at www.weechat.org Nov 05 02:23:59 The src can be fetched at http://www.weechat.org/download/ Nov 05 02:24:21 The compiling method and dependents is at http://www.weechat.org/files/doc/stable/weechat_user.en.html#source_package Nov 05 02:25:26 The must-have dependents are cmake and libncursesw5-dev, but for plugins work, it's better compiled with perl and python support. Nov 05 02:32:46 ok, now that tablet-browser-view-test is done, gotta figure out what to do next. I was thinking about clockd but its too complex Nov 05 02:33:03 same for libtime Nov 05 02:42:42 anyone using vim on n900? Nov 05 02:43:10 only when I have too Nov 05 02:43:41 merlin1991: Don't know how to communicate the text with external app Nov 05 02:43:54 seems * and + failed Nov 05 02:44:12 It has the feature, but I guess maemo doesn't use the x clipboard? Nov 05 02:44:30 no maemo has some hildon-clipboard thingy Nov 05 02:45:00 hildon? Nov 05 02:49:32 kids these days dont even know what hildon is. Nov 05 02:52:54 its not that they don't know, its more like they won't research for themselves Nov 05 02:53:51 tbqh nokia did basically dismantle their dev community... Nov 05 02:55:14 took me 30 mins to find the docs on N9 and still have not found the forum. Nov 05 02:55:14 it was the plan from the start Nov 05 02:55:26 qt mobility has api to get cellid, but Nov 05 02:55:32 fremantle, dismantle, coincidence? i think not Nov 05 02:55:48 community are the only people who are going to document anything like digging neighboring cells out of the baseband Nov 05 02:56:12 no community? shiny polished, dead, limited product **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Nov 05 02:59:57 2011