**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed May 16 03:00:01 2012
May 16 03:04:40 <DocScrutinizer> or shame on those consultants whol failed to explain to you what's the actual duties you took when accepting your election for council members
May 16 03:05:39 * DocScrutinizer idly wonders who might be those consultants
May 16 03:06:55 * robbiethe1st votes DocS for council
May 16 03:07:07 <DocScrutinizer> to late :-P
May 16 03:07:13 <DocScrutinizer> too*
May 16 03:07:55 <DocScrutinizer> hi robbiethe1st 
May 16 03:08:15 <DocScrutinizer> you been rare, last few weeks
May 16 03:11:49 <ieatlint> bah, voting is for losers
May 16 03:12:26 <ieatlint> civilization has classically thrived through authoritarian regimes
May 16 03:13:00 <ieatlint> and it won't let me write "stephen elop" in for the council election :(
May 16 03:19:12 <robbiethe1st> Weeks? Last few months more like
May 16 04:12:35 <DocScrutinizer> so welcome back then? :-D
May 16 04:33:40 <DocScrutinizer> [general notice] voting for council election opened! Check your email! You should already have received your ballot (if you're eligible to vote, see http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Election_process )
May 16 04:35:33 <DocScrutinizer> also see http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_Q1/2_2012  and  http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_May_2012/Candidate_declarations
May 16 04:38:59 <DocScrutinizer> if you think you're eligible to vote for council, and you're missing the mail with your ballot, please IMMEDIATELY contact X-Fade (user in this channel) aka Niels Breet 
May 16 04:56:06 <Sc0rpius> I got the mail
May 16 05:01:14 <ieatlint> is there a good voting guide here?
May 16 05:01:23 <DocScrutinizer> no
May 16 05:03:04 <ieatlint> there, i voted
May 16 05:03:18 <ieatlint> twice today now... voted in gov elections earlier
May 16 05:05:55 <DocScrutinizer> in my book I got "none of the candidates shows up on IRC regularly, as supposed by http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council#Get_in_contact"
May 16 05:07:06 <ieatlint> yeah, i voted for the names i recognized
May 16 05:09:05 <DocScrutinizer> given the purpose of council primarily is to "know about what's going on in community", I don't think any of the candidates is currently in a position to deliver on this duty, since all (mostly) ignore this channel
May 16 05:10:54 <ieatlint> i'm barely in here really anymore myself :/
May 16 05:11:06 <ieatlint> this employment thing is oddly time consuming
May 16 05:12:20 <DocScrutinizer> ~seen ivgalvez
May 16 05:12:22 <infobot> ivgalvez <598c718a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.140.113.138> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo-ssu, 4d 18h 14m 13s ago, saying: 'amiconn: It's nice for gaming'.
May 16 05:12:39 <DocScrutinizer> ~seen estel
May 16 05:12:40 <infobot> i haven't seen 'estel', DocScrutinizer
May 16 05:13:07 <DocScrutinizer> ~seen jcharpak
May 16 05:13:08 <infobot> jcharpak <~jcharpak@c-71-232-30-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 285d 23h 31m 20s ago, saying: 'good luck'.
May 16 05:13:25 <DocScrutinizer> ~seen woody14619
May 16 05:13:25 <infobot> i haven't seen 'woody14619', DocScrutinizer
May 16 05:13:37 <DocScrutinizer> ~seen Aries
May 16 05:13:37 <infobot> aries <~aries@60.176.171.109> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 490d 18h 9m 4s ago, saying: ':)'.
May 16 05:13:49 <Sc0rpius> isn't Arie ?
May 16 05:13:50 <DocScrutinizer> ~seen NielDK
May 16 05:13:50 <infobot> DocScrutinizer: i haven't seen 'nieldk'
May 16 05:13:58 <ieatlint> oh god, it's been that long since aries was around?
May 16 05:14:10 <Sc0rpius> ~seen Arie
May 16 05:14:10 <infobot> arie <~Arie@static-70-108-251-9.res.east.verizon.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo-ssu, 1d 9h 52m 44s ago, saying: 'i'm gonna go guys thank you for the informative talk'.
May 16 05:14:15 <Sc0rpius> that's yout guy
May 16 05:14:17 <Sc0rpius> your
May 16 05:14:18 <DocScrutinizer> ~seen SD69
May 16 05:14:18 <infobot> sd69 <ae64f0d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.100.240.216> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 23d 14h 30m 58s ago, saying: 'any thoughts on cOBS from cssu pov?'.
May 16 05:14:24 <Sc0rpius> I was going to vote for him
May 16 05:14:29 <ieatlint> ah, that makes a lot more sense... i thought i'd seem him recently
May 16 05:14:56 <Sc0rpius> but then lazyness came
May 16 05:15:00 <ieatlint> as i recall, voting in this election is strongly encouraged to give a good showing
May 16 05:15:03 <Sc0rpius> I'm pretty sure he's gonna win anyway
May 16 05:15:13 <ieatlint> the turnout is as important as the result
May 16 05:15:37 <DocScrutinizer> where's the link from aries to Arie?
May 16 05:15:47 <ieatlint> hard to claim a council represents a community unless the community comes out to vote
May 16 05:18:24 <Sc0rpius> 18<Arie> freemangordon: I'm no good in that, have the N9 in my hand at work, I'm more interested in listening since I'm running for the council, I want to be aware and helpful to the maemo community if I get elected.
May 16 05:18:31 <Sc0rpius> that was during the cssu meeting
May 16 05:18:35 <Sc0rpius> and you were there :S
May 16 05:18:44 <DocScrutinizer> so what?
May 16 05:19:03 <Sc0rpius> you didn't read it :( so he says he's running for the council, so he's the guy right
May 16 05:19:08 <DocScrutinizer> is Arie stating there he's aries aka Arie Mark ?
May 16 05:19:31 <DocScrutinizer> indeed, I didn't read
May 16 05:19:54 <DocScrutinizer> and I can't recall when he last time showed up *here* in *this* channel
May 16 05:20:00 <Sc0rpius> I think he is
May 16 05:20:08 <Sc0rpius> no, I haven't seen him in this channel either.
May 16 05:20:17 <Sc0rpius> just in #maemo-ssu and actually, just today.
May 16 05:20:26 <Sc0rpius> or yesterday for some people
May 16 05:20:58 <DocScrutinizer> >>Finally, Council members are usually present over IRC at freenode.net/maemo and are always happy to chat with you.<<
May 16 05:21:18 <DocScrutinizer> (from http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council#Get_in_contact )
May 16 05:21:20 <Sc0rpius> they never come
May 16 05:21:59 <ieatlint> i should clearly have run
May 16 05:22:11 <DocScrutinizer> so neither current council nor any candidate of future council is a true representative of the IRC part of community
May 16 05:22:39 <DocScrutinizer> ieatlint: indeed, I'd happily vote for you
May 16 05:22:54 <ieatlint> i've a history of doing well by running on a platform of embezzlement and bribery.. does the council have any such opportunities?
May 16 05:23:39 <Sc0rpius> yeah
May 16 05:23:50 <ieatlint> then damn... next time perhaps
May 16 05:23:53 <Sc0rpius> but when Jaffa was the council it was great
May 16 05:24:04 <Sc0rpius> or GeneralAntilles 
May 16 05:24:14 <Sc0rpius> but those times will never return
May 16 05:24:34 <ieatlint> or when nokia had employees working on it..
May 16 05:24:56 <DocScrutinizer> nokia employees in council???
May 16 05:25:10 <DocScrutinizer> hardly
May 16 05:25:15 <ieatlint> no, i mean in maemo
May 16 05:27:13 <Sc0rpius> I know this is not #symbian but my gf got a Nokia 500 running Belle and it's unstable as hell
May 16 05:27:18 <Sc0rpius> it reboots just for the sake of it
May 16 05:27:36 <Sc0rpius> what a crap, Nokia used to be decent
May 16 05:27:41 <Sc0rpius> this saddens me
May 16 05:27:56 <ieatlint> huh, i've used a few belle devices and not had issues
May 16 05:28:08 <ieatlint> well, not outside of the normal crappy symbian reality
May 16 05:28:50 <ieatlint> had a nokia 700 for dev for six months... seemed like a decent device overall
May 16 05:29:02 <DocScrutinizer> Sc0rpius: Nokia always had maybe 5% of RMA, on all devices (except N900 where this rate probably been way higher)
May 16 05:29:11 <DocScrutinizer> quite usual in whole industry
May 16 05:30:03 <Sc0rpius> somebody should make a 100% mobile linux OS 100% open 100% multitasking and NO VM crap like Android
May 16 05:30:08 <Sc0rpius> and it seems nobody is interested
May 16 05:30:35 <ieatlint> clearly you haven't heard of tizen yet
May 16 05:30:43 * ieatlint tries to withhold laughter
May 16 05:30:52 <Sc0rpius> and TIzen was my last hope but it seems applications have to be some HTML5 crap and no native executable support.
May 16 05:31:03 <ieatlint> uh, no, there's native
May 16 05:31:09 <ieatlint> EFL based primarily
May 16 05:31:20 <Sc0rpius> they already said "developers can't build native executables" or so I heard
May 16 05:31:47 <DocScrutinizer> Sc0rpius: maybe since if you do, you get 100% defective hardware fried by idiotas coming up with "ACME OC", "superduper indicator-LED LAZOR" and other shite deliberately frying your hw
May 16 05:31:56 <Sc0rpius> anyway I saw that video with the Samsung device running some version of Tizen
May 16 05:32:04 <Sc0rpius> didn't look bad.
May 16 05:32:21 <Sc0rpius> heh DocScrutinizer 
May 16 05:32:57 <Sc0rpius> "« Do as we say, not as we do »: Tizen devs use the EFL libraries for everything, but for app devs it's the « HTML5, HTML5 » mantra"
May 16 05:33:05 <Sc0rpius> (that's from a blog)
May 16 05:33:23 <Sc0rpius> how can you write Angry Birds in HTML5? it'll be very slow
May 16 05:33:34 <DocScrutinizer> bwahaha
May 16 05:34:14 <Sc0rpius> poor OS hasn't been officially released and it's already doomed
May 16 05:36:32 <ieatlint> Sc0rpius, efl apps are supported
May 16 05:36:37 <ieatlint> opengl apps are supported
May 16 05:37:08 <ieatlint> angry birds will be opengl, and considering rovio was a sponsor of the tizen conference, i'm betting there'll be angry birds on it
May 16 05:37:31 <ieatlint> i've got the dev device here on my desk... it's pretty meh, the base system is very very basic
May 16 05:37:33 <Sc0rpius> we'll see about that
May 16 05:37:39 <DocScrutinizer> "with great power comes great responsibility" - all those devels never wrapped their head around that very true saying, not even when they seen it on doing "su -" on their device
May 16 05:37:43 <ieatlint> and the dev environment only works in 32bit linux and 32bit windows
May 16 05:37:49 <ieatlint> so i haven't tried anything
May 16 05:38:01 <Sc0rpius> there's virtualbox/vmware for that
May 16 05:38:11 <ieatlint> but from what i recall of efl from the openmoko days... heh
May 16 05:38:15 <ieatlint> it's not bad
May 16 05:38:35 <DocScrutinizer> so all the commercial OS developers (those working for hw manufs) decided NOT to give that much power to devels
May 16 05:38:37 <Sc0rpius> I guess you develop in C++ for that
May 16 05:38:38 <ieatlint> it's like qml, but no logic in the declarative (similar to xaml in some ways)
May 16 05:38:44 <ieatlint> but it's much more restricted in gui elements
May 16 05:38:51 <Sc0rpius> I'll miss Qt when I get rid of my N900
May 16 05:38:55 <Sc0rpius> and I'll miss it a lot.
May 16 05:38:59 <ieatlint> C for tizen
May 16 05:39:05 <Sc0rpius> I see
May 16 05:39:06 <ieatlint> and yeah, qt is nice
May 16 05:39:45 <ieatlint> not glib c, but efl c... ecore and einas modules, which provide a main loop and basic data structure implementations and such
May 16 05:39:54 <Sc0rpius> Glib needs to die
May 16 05:39:59 <DocScrutinizer> Jaffa: hey! thanks for comment on ticket :-D
May 16 05:40:15 <ieatlint> i like glib fine for c :P
May 16 05:42:10 <Sc0rpius> well
May 16 05:42:27 <Sc0rpius> I'll wait for Tizen then, maybe it'll be fun
May 16 05:43:42 <ieatlint> good luck
May 16 05:44:36 <ieatlint> i'll believe it's a real product when there's a consumer device on the market and all the major partners are still present (that second qualifier being a meego/nokia inspired one)
May 16 05:44:49 <Sc0rpius> yeah it's real
May 16 05:44:56 <Sc0rpius> but will it satisfy power users?
May 16 05:45:04 <Sc0rpius> (I know they could care less about power users)
May 16 05:45:32 <ieatlint> yeah, because they wouldn't have a conference if it were going to fail before even launching
May 16 05:45:59 <DocScrutinizer> ieatlint: hey, the election is fundamentally flawed anyway, you should have good chances to petition for a re-run where you run for election
May 16 05:46:15 <DocScrutinizer> ;-D
May 16 05:47:19 <DocScrutinizer> if the new council had any sense for PC, this anyway was the first and only thing they'd do: organize immediate properly organized new elections
May 16 05:48:22 <ieatlint> yeah..
May 16 05:49:11 <ieatlint> the council election is ominously close to my city council election, which consists of 40 names i've never heard of and instructions to "choose 10"
May 16 05:49:12 <DocScrutinizer> *if* I were elected in such a flawed process, I'd accept the appointment for this sole purpose, and I'd hope for getting a better more legit mandate in the new election
May 16 05:49:31 <ieatlint> except i recognized names in the maemo council election
May 16 05:50:27 <DocScrutinizer> well, recognizing names doesn't automatically qualify them for being a community representative
May 16 05:50:35 <DocScrutinizer> ;-D
May 16 05:50:55 <ieatlint> yeah, but not recognizing them doesn't count for more
May 16 05:51:01 <DocScrutinizer> quite possibly the opposite
May 16 05:51:11 <DocScrutinizer> yep
May 16 05:51:39 <DocScrutinizer> not recognizing a name rules them out I'd say
May 16 05:52:21 <DocScrutinizer> but I'd recognize abill_uk immediately ;-P Doesn't mean I'd vote for him
May 16 05:53:46 <ieatlint> similarly the one name on the city council candidates i recognize i also wouldn't vote for.. good times
May 16 05:58:21 <DocScrutinizer> which city?
May 16 05:59:11 <ieatlint> san francisco
May 16 05:59:17 <DocScrutinizer> :-)
May 16 06:01:14 * DocScrutinizer idly wonders what would be the outcome of US democratic procedures competing with maemo council statutes and the way they are executed, for a ranking on a metrics of "proper democracy"
May 16 06:02:46 <DocScrutinizer> heck, I need another coffe. Seems I'm in a delusional state of mind
May 16 06:05:15 <ieatlint> hey, i vote for president the same way
May 16 06:05:27 <ieatlint> i pick a name at random
May 16 06:21:44 <luke-jr> DocScrutinizer: can I write you in the Maemo vote thing?
May 16 06:30:47 <DocScrutinizer> luke-jr: ??? sorry please rephrase
May 16 06:31:15 <DocScrutinizer> write me in the vote thing?
May 16 06:31:31 <luke-jr> "The election of the Maemo Community Council is now open, … The candidates for election are: …"
May 16 06:31:39 <luke-jr> yeah, write-in "DocScrutinizer"
May 16 06:31:46 <DocScrutinizer> if you mean whether you can put my name on the vote ballot: I dunno but for sure I'm not running
May 16 06:31:47 <luke-jr> nevermind the candidates
May 16 06:37:39 <DocScrutinizer> luke-jr: I definitely don't qualify for a community representative, since I notoriously and persitently ignore the "better" half of what's going on in community, over at tmo
May 16 06:39:51 <DocScrutinizer> I probably could stand competition as it's now, but I don't like to run for council anyway
May 16 07:33:43 <Sicelo> besides, looks like that stage is over and done with .. seems we can now only vote within the current candidates
May 16 07:48:39 <DocScrutinizer> yep
May 16 07:49:16 <DocScrutinizer> my personal recommendation for a good read, for both voters and candidates: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1187372#post1187372
May 16 08:38:10 <Estel_> Hello Maemo.
May 16 08:39:55 <DocScrutinizer> Estel_: !!! :-)
May 16 08:41:28 <Estel_> As You may be already aware, election for Council is running already, from 16th to 23th may. Every registered Maemo member (maemo.org, not necessary talk.maemo.org) that got account older than 3 months and karma of at least 10, is egligble to vote. You should receive invitation + voting token on Your mail address associated with maemo.org. If You feel that You shoulbe eglibe to vote, but haven't received invitation/token, please contact X-Fade,
May 16 08:41:29 <Estel_>  and/or seek help on: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=83398
May 16 08:41:29 <DocScrutinizer> I'm already sold to your unremitting dedication to maemo :-D
May 16 08:41:58 <Estel_> wow, DocScrutinizer, thanks for such cheerfull welcome
May 16 08:42:35 <Estel_> :) thanks a lot
May 16 08:42:59 <Estel_> regarding election: links worth checking:
May 16 08:44:14 <Estel_> http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_May_2012/Candidate_declarations
May 16 08:44:39 <Estel_> http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_Q1/2_2012
May 16 08:44:55 <Estel_> http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council
May 16 08:45:47 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer,  thanks for inviting Council candidates here, I hoe others will come as well
May 16 08:45:56 <Estel_> hope*
May 16 08:46:12 <Estel_> Ok, now kind of shameless advert ;)
May 16 08:46:18 <DocScrutinizer> well, such invitation shouldn't be nexessary :-)
May 16 08:46:50 <Estel_> don't get it wrong way, but at least 2 candidates weren't aware of maemo irc at all ;)
May 16 08:46:51 <DocScrutinizer> anyway YW and welcome here, hope you're here to stay
May 16 08:47:15 <Estel_> exactly, thats why I would have few irc-noobish questions to You after a while
May 16 08:47:21 <Estel_> now, kinda shameless advert:
May 16 08:47:26 <DocScrutinizer> np, just ask
May 16 08:47:36 <DocScrutinizer> that's why we got chanops
May 16 08:48:03 <Estel_> I'm running for Council, and I invite everyone to see (linked before) Council candidate's declarations, where You will find mine as well
May 16 08:48:52 <Estel_> I'm also going to stay here for at least a hour focused, and later, responding to pings, if anyone would like to talk with me about plans, ask question, criticize or overall communicate ;)
May 16 08:48:58 <Estel_> I'm open for any question
May 16 08:49:11 <Estel_> that's said, now my noobish questions to joerg :P
May 16 08:49:43 <Estel_> if I got elected, I would like to be semi-always available on IRC, so people could ping me anytime just like You
May 16 08:50:02 <Estel_> what would You recommend as a best technical way to achieve it conveniently?
May 16 08:50:18 <Estel_> i.e. some lightweight irc client on my home's router?
May 16 08:50:46 <Estel_> + auto information when someone pings me or something similar to my nick?
May 16 08:51:25 <Estel_> You know, to easily filter out direct questions from other IRC chat content, when asked while I'm out yet logged on IRC
May 16 08:51:54 <HRH_H_Crab> Estel_: if not a router something like a nslu2 or plug computer thingy.
May 16 08:51:55 <DocScrutinizer> well, the straight approach is to use any irc client and keep it running on your main machine
May 16 08:52:05 <Estel_> up to now, I was just connecting from time to time, now I would like to make it permanen like in Council page "are usually on #maemo and happy to talk with You"
May 16 08:52:18 <HRH_H_Crab> yeah unless you want to leave a proper machine on 24/7
May 16 08:53:08 <Estel_> the thing is that I *can't* leave my mine machine 24/7, due to various reasons
May 16 08:53:15 <DocScrutinizer> if you don't want to keep a local machine running 24/7, then there's proxies like ZNC, to run them on any (linux) server
May 16 08:53:26 <HRH_H_Crab> or get a cheap host somewhere.
May 16 08:53:42 <HRH_H_Crab> (or even free)
May 16 08:53:45 <Estel_> ...one of them being that it's a notebook without proper way to reboot after power down etc + WOL works only from standby :/
May 16 08:53:46 <DocScrutinizer> Estel_: I could even offer a ZNC account at my host
May 16 08:54:12 <Estel_> on the other hand I got very reliable router, Linksys wrt54G running Tomato now - may switch to OpenWRT
May 16 08:54:31 <HRH_H_Crab> Estel_: i doubt you will fit a client on wrt54g
May 16 08:54:42 <HRH_H_Crab> iirc i maxed mine out just adding gkrellmd to it ;/
May 16 08:54:53 <Estel_> I see, many interesting ways of achieving it
May 16 08:54:53 <DocScrutinizer> Estel_: (my host) see DocScrutinizer51 
May 16 08:55:32 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer,  thanks. BTW, I must google first those things like ZNC, I mostly IRC moderate-newbie, sadly
May 16 08:55:41 <DocScrutinizer> np
May 16 08:56:02 <Estel_> HRH_H_Crab,  so wrt54g client isn't a option, understood
May 16 08:56:07 <HRH_H_Crab> it might be
May 16 08:56:28 <DocScrutinizer> it's simply you don't connect to freenode directly but rather to my server, where you may get an account
May 16 08:56:32 <HRH_H_Crab> but if im thinking of the same thing, there is very little free space left in the flash after youve got tomato / openwrt installed.
May 16 08:56:46 <Estel_> space constrains,? I could solderf flash card slot to it
May 16 08:57:03 <HRH_H_Crab> well, if you are going to go down that route, the worlds your lobster.
May 16 08:57:20 <HRH_H_Crab> if you can even get 4GB on that thing you could run a whole debian mips install
May 16 08:57:29 <HRH_H_Crab> in which case id use irssi in screen!
May 16 08:58:03 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer,  so Your server connect on my behalf, and I connect to it. But, what are directly IRC-related benefits of ZNC proxy? intelligent searching etc?
May 16 08:58:27 <Estel_> HRH_H_Crab,  yea, but RAM is a constraing
May 16 08:58:39 <HRH_H_Crab> you dont need much ram for irssi and screen.
May 16 08:58:50 <HRH_H_Crab> im using an nslu2 for this chat.
May 16 08:58:54 <HRH_H_Crab> its got 28MB of ram...
May 16 08:58:55 <DocScrutinizer> simply buffering anything for you, automatic playback of buffer on reconnect, and of course 'you' always present on IRC
May 16 08:58:55 <HRH_H_Crab> ;)
May 16 08:59:00 <Estel_> I see.
May 16 08:59:41 <HRH_H_Crab> Estel_: the problem with the wrt54g is that the actual root filesystem is so small.
May 16 08:59:52 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer,  nice.
May 16 09:00:04 <DocScrutinizer> the downside: *theoretically* I could sniff all your actions on IRC
May 16 09:00:48 <Estel_> of course, as with all proxy it's matter of trust. Well, my ISP could do it too :P
May 16 09:01:05 <DocScrutinizer> so if you trust me less than your normal internet provider or freenode admins, you shouldn't accept my offer
May 16 09:01:14 <Estel_> HRH_H_Crab,  it's true. But still, this little router is a beast
May 16 09:01:39 <Estel_> before Pi it was best platform for many crazy projects, like flying wardriving copters or whatsnot
May 16 09:01:48 <HRH_H_Crab> Estel_: i bought a wrt54gl and i was a bit "underwhelmed"
May 16 09:02:10 <Corsac> (well, except that freenode admins and isp don't exactly know who Estel_ is and what interesting stuff he has to hide in his irc logs :)
May 16 09:02:15 <Estel_> I trust You more than my internet provider(s), so I accept offer with great appreciation :)
May 16 09:02:30 <HRH_H_Crab> the limited flash and the limited bootloader annoyed me a bit.
May 16 09:02:40 <HRH_H_Crab> infact mine is currently in kind of a "bricked" state which is very annoying.
May 16 09:03:02 <Estel_> hm, I see. You would need to flash via jtag, probably?
May 16 09:03:16 <HRH_H_Crab> my main experience with "misusing" stuff in that way is based around nslu2
May 16 09:03:26 <HRH_H_Crab> they have a lot more potential than the linksys routers.
May 16 09:03:27 <Estel_> Still, for 30 USD and wide availability, it was good piece of hardware
May 16 09:03:34 <HRH_H_Crab> what they lack is a nice little built in 4 port switch! ;P
May 16 09:03:59 <Estel_> :P
May 16 09:04:06 <HRH_H_Crab> Estel_: i'll show you something cool which would do what you want:
May 16 09:04:12 <Estel_> need to google this nslu2 thing
May 16 09:04:35 <HRH_H_Crab> http://linitx.com/product/12647
May 16 09:04:38 <HRH_H_Crab> forget nslu2 
May 16 09:04:42 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer,  just to be sure it got into proper address, Iaccept offer with much appreciation :)
May 16 09:04:43 <HRH_H_Crab> its too old now.
May 16 09:04:49 <HRH_H_Crab> that thing i just linked...
May 16 09:04:54 <HRH_H_Crab> 256MB ram 
May 16 09:04:57 <HRH_H_Crab> not a bad processor
May 16 09:05:03 <HRH_H_Crab> cf flash card and usb.
May 16 09:05:07 <HRH_H_Crab> built in 3 port switch
May 16 09:05:15 <DocScrutinizer> Estel_: I already sent a /query
May 16 09:05:26 <DocScrutinizer> check your other IRC window
May 16 09:05:42 <HRH_H_Crab> those guys ship them with bsd based "appliance" firewall software, but im seriously thinking of grabbing one and sticking debian and shorewall / shorewall6 on it.
May 16 09:07:38 <HRH_H_Crab> Estel_: but, having said that, if you are even half serious about breaking out your soldering iron, and are happy using jtag (im not) you could build something much more fun with the wrt54g
May 16 09:11:22 <Jaffa> Estel_: Thanks for your work in actually organising things, and pushing for comms and transparency.
May 16 09:11:58 <Jaffa> Estel_: SD69's been making his best efforts at being on a mostly absent council, but I don't think he should be picking and choosing over the boring - but important - bits.
May 16 09:12:16 <Jaffa> Being on the council isn't all going to Nokia World to represent the community at the launch of the N900, y'know
May 16 09:12:20 <Jaffa> ;-)
May 16 09:15:04 <Estel_> Of course, I understand that.
May 16 09:15:37 <Estel_> I agree, that there were things that could be done better, although, I take this 1 person out-of-5 work being quite exhausting
May 16 09:15:59 <Estel_> so it's understandable to me, that at the end, everything started to collapse
May 16 09:16:28 <Jaffa> Estel_: It wasn't much better at the start, TBH
May 16 09:16:55 <Jaffa> Estel_: And if it's that much of a chore, hold the elections as soon as possible - or *ask* for help
May 16 09:17:45 <Estel_> Here is don't agree completely, - despite fact that momcilo and jeremiah dissapeared just after election (sic!), communication was quite fluent, although, not all possible channels were used - here I agree
May 16 09:18:46 <Estel_> as for help, I remember that I've opted for a way to delay with absent Council members problem
May 16 09:19:00 <Estel_> but there wasn't a will to push it further, overall
May 16 09:20:00 <Estel_> I'm sure one of many important things for new Council to do, will be fixing statute. Maybe not most important thing, yet, necessary
May 16 09:20:38 <Estel_> we like to avoid such situation as with voting start now, + transparent way to replace absent Council members with new ones
May 16 09:20:59 <Estel_> it should be less of a problem now, as current candidates are very active, but still.
May 16 09:21:18 <Estel_> BTW, it seems that crizises are motivating, sometimes ;)
May 16 09:22:30 <Estel_> One thing I'm afraid of, is too slow pace of getting used to Council tools via new Council members - judging by candidates - me included - no matter what, most people will be 1st tiimers @ Council
May 16 09:23:33 <Estel_> after all, 6 months isn't very much time. We - or they - will need to unify some "tutorial" about Council tools. It may be used by new Counciles as well
May 16 09:24:14 <Estel_> for example, see Council blog. Most people - honestly, me included - were not aware of it's existence at all, cause it wasnt used :P
May 16 09:24:24 <chem|st> o/
May 16 09:24:59 <Estel_> mixing it with Qgil pro-active stance, new Council will have *much* work to do
May 16 09:25:13 <Estel_> which is good news ;)
May 16 09:26:12 <DocScrutinizer> hi chem|st 
May 16 09:29:02 <chem|st> hey
May 16 09:29:11 <chem|st> candidates monologue^^
May 16 09:29:36 <Estel_> erm, kinda
May 16 09:29:44 <Estel_> candidate*, honestly ;)
May 16 09:29:53 <chem|st> doc you are not on the list and me neither... what happened to "us for presidents"
May 16 09:29:55 <Estel_> but it was about Jaffa question/statement
May 16 09:30:33 <chem|st> Estel_: I know, councelors or candidates in here is not a usual view in my window
May 16 09:30:39 <Estel_> honestly, someone should kick DocScrutinizer in butt for not standing as candidate
May 16 09:31:06 <DocScrutinizer> ;-P
May 16 09:31:07 <Estel_> hehe. We will try to change that, although I hope for less monologues in future
May 16 09:31:48 <chem|st> glad you are here... the important maemo stuff happens on IRC... like grillparties... fishing trips and the most important talk about relevance
May 16 09:32:24 <chem|st> to much sarcasm?
May 16 09:32:53 <Estel_> :P agree. Yet, talking seriously, TMO got strong position to, and I'm not talking about "future of maemo" threads :P
May 16 09:37:24 <Estel_> for example, the thing about CSSU - if it should mess with things not doable via extras, or provide FOSS replacement for closed bits too
May 16 09:39:29 <Estel_> almost no one of interested people was able to attend irc meeting
May 16 09:40:15 <Estel_> about it, yet, talking in TMO thread went very meritocraticly. Well, sad to use names, but usual "trolls" (joerg will know who I mean) seems to avoid developer threads
May 16 09:40:20 <Estel_> fortunately
May 16 09:48:10 <Jaffa> Estel_: None of those "interested" people on TMO are capable of commenting sensibly, or - if they are - can do so via the mailing list.
May 16 09:48:31 <Jaffa> Estel_: "I wants haz my CSSU betterz!!11!" is not very useful.
May 16 09:56:00 <ieatlint> but it is sensible
May 16 09:57:10 <Estel_> Jaffa, have You read comment I'm reffering to?
May 16 09:57:34 <Estel_> I don't think ivgalgvez or freemangordon are "I want haz better CSSU" people
May 16 09:58:48 <Estel_> BTW, thing about "if CSSU should provide available FOSS replacements for closed bits, or be only a way to deliver things not suitable for extras" is rather about philosophy, not exact technical problems
May 16 09:59:46 <Jaffa> Estel_: And they were both in the meeting. And no, without a URL I didn't know what you were referring to.
May 16 10:01:10 <Estel_> Strange, as ivgalvez have writtwen that hes sorry he couldn't attent irc meeting
May 16 10:01:30 <Estel_> I think You're reffering to free talk that resulted in announced meeting later
May 16 10:01:45 <Estel_> ...which proves that communication problems also happen on IRC ;)
May 16 10:03:06 <Jaffa> Estel_: No, I misread the nick. freemangordon was there.
May 16 10:04:30 <Jaffa> But I'm not sure how this related to the current council being ineffective in their most base responsibilities.
May 16 10:06:29 <Estel_> not at all?it was related to what chem|st said
May 16 10:06:36 <Estel_> and we were not arguing ;)
May 16 10:06:57 <Estel_> I agree that most important "hot" development things happen on irc
May 16 10:07:12 <Estel_> yet, I noticed that TMO is more conveinent for *some* things
May 16 10:07:48 <Estel_> for obvious reasons (irc being mostly real-time etc)
May 16 10:10:55 <Estel_> I commented on Your statements quite a while ago, then, we moved to other topics
May 16 10:11:35 <Estel_> BTW, I don't think we're thinking opposite here - it's just that we differ a little about view on reasons.
May 16 10:17:22 <Estel_> If anyone want to ask me a questions or generally chat about Council things, it's getting close to end real-time availability for now. Of course, I'll drop at later time
May 16 10:20:48 <Hurrian> Estel_, has tmo gone crazy over the elections?
May 16 10:21:59 <Estel_> Why?
May 16 10:22:09 <Estel_> Hurrian?
May 16 10:59:14 <Estel_> OK, see You later people!
May 16 10:59:21 <DocScrutinizer> cya Estel_ 
May 16 11:19:06 <DocScrutinizer> chem|st: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1207165 sticky?
May 16 11:19:48 <DocScrutinizer> (just a question, or rather suggestion)
May 16 11:24:48 <DocScrutinizer> [notice] Council votes already opened. Please check your mail, you should've received your token/ballot
May 16 11:25:53 <flux> so, who should we vote?-P
May 16 11:26:02 <flux> (and why)
May 16 11:29:38 <Hurrian> flux: your choice, who do you think has enough motivation to lead maemo.org well into the next 6 months?
May 16 11:37:24 <DocScrutinizer> Hurrian: flux: actually the council is not leading
May 16 11:37:31 <DocScrutinizer> just saying
May 16 11:37:57 <DocScrutinizer> basically the council doesn't decide anything
May 16 11:38:35 <merlin1991> DocScrutinizer: re sticky I'd say no
May 16 11:38:45 <merlin1991> -stable and -testing threads aren't stickies either
May 16 11:38:45 <DocScrutinizer> (except such stuff like funding for speakers on maemo summit, device queue...)
May 16 11:38:58 <DocScrutinizer> merlin1991: ok
May 16 11:40:01 <DocScrutinizer> merlin1991: do you agree with freemangordon about too harsh wording of my post there? (keep in mind it's meant to be harsh, to *maybe* scare a few % of noobs. And that's for sure all it will do, if anything)
May 16 11:41:25 <merlin1991> I'd replace half baked with new and the THERE IS NO SUPPORT to something along the lines of SUPPORT ONLY HAPPENS IN HERE / IRC
May 16 11:41:36 <DocScrutinizer> ok
May 16 11:42:19 <merlin1991> and ofc the whole post is redundant except for the irc part ;)
May 16 11:45:20 <DocScrutinizer> sure thing
May 16 11:46:02 <DocScrutinizer> I'm just scared we eventually end with another extras-devel
May 16 11:50:24 <trx> hm, i wasn't paying much attention to the candidates and elections
May 16 11:51:04 <trx> got any recommendations about who should i vote for? :)
May 16 11:51:38 <trx> or NOT vote for
May 16 11:51:43 <trx> thats easier :)
May 16 11:53:59 <StyXman> trx: do NOT vote romney :-P
May 16 11:54:17 <StyXman> or zarkozy, but he already lost
May 16 11:54:17 <trx> :))
May 16 11:54:34 <StyXman> or berlusconi, but the coward is not running again
May 16 11:55:25 <trx> good suggestions, i'll take you advice :)
May 16 11:55:31 <trx> your*
May 16 11:56:05 <trx> i guess i'll randomize();
May 16 11:57:11 <StyXman> well, if you don't know their platformes, then I htink it's better no t to vote
May 16 11:58:23 <trx> then i will read the wiki page first :/
May 16 11:59:56 <StyXman> yes, randomize() is not serious
May 16 12:23:10 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer: instead of stickieing devel I should make battery patch disappear^^
May 16 12:23:47 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
May 16 12:23:49 <DocScrutinizer> +100
May 16 12:25:52 <DocScrutinizer> seems arie and estel got noticed by me for being somewhat active
May 16 12:26:13 <DocScrutinizer> StyXman: trx: ^^^
May 16 12:26:49 <trx> yeap, i noticed that too
May 16 12:26:52 <trx> thanks
May 16 12:27:23 <DocScrutinizer> maybe checking tmo posts and #maemo* irclogs is more enlightenng than just reading the profiles on that wikipage
May 16 12:27:50 <chem|st> +mailinglist
May 16 12:27:54 <DocScrutinizer> yup
May 16 12:28:13 * DocScrutinizer hides
May 16 12:29:04 <DocScrutinizer> well, I'm not running, I'm not supposed to keep tack of all available channels. I am allowed to ignore ML and tmo
May 16 12:29:38 <DocScrutinizer> a proper candidate shouldn't ignore any though
May 16 12:30:53 <chem|st> +1
May 16 12:30:56 <DocScrutinizer> estel just an hour ago made sure he'll be available and monitoring this very channel
May 16 12:32:29 <chem|st> cannot remember back when there were councelors or candidates in here apart from myself, and I had no single minute in the 2 weeks of election, as I was occupied with an exhibition and a sailing turn
May 16 12:32:54 <StyXman> DocScrutinizer: I'm not vote worthy, but thanks for the heads up anyways
May 16 12:32:56 <internetishard> How do you backup all the downloaded email?
May 16 12:32:56 <chem|st> though I had 100% time for counceling the day after election^^
May 16 12:33:30 <chem|st> internetishard: which downloaded emails?
May 16 12:33:54 <internetishard> The default email app. Where does it store everything?
May 16 12:34:23 <chem|st> somewhere in /home/user lmc
May 16 12:34:56 <DocScrutinizer> I bet in a backup.tgz you'll find all your mails
May 16 12:35:15 <internetishard> I hope :P
May 16 12:37:08 <chem|st> in /home/user/.modest which should be in your backup
May 16 12:37:37 <internetishard> Ok, was suspicious  because there are only 4 checkboxes in the backup program
May 16 12:38:06 <chem|st> I think you arent able to not to backup it
May 16 12:38:21 <chem|st> so are your contacts
May 16 12:40:44 <chem|st> create a new backup and look yourself ;)
May 16 12:40:58 <internetishard> just checking. thanks mamn
May 16 12:41:22 <DocScrutinizer> internetishard: sftp://root@iron900/home/user/MyDocs/backups/BackupCSSU-1stUpdate/com_and_cal.zip
May 16 12:41:55 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer: so it is bound to one of the hooks
May 16 12:42:01 <DocScrutinizer> root/home/user/modest-backup.tgz
May 16 12:42:30 <DocScrutinizer> err tar.gz
May 16 12:43:25 <DocScrutinizer> .modest/(cache|images|local_folders|outboxes)
May 16 12:45:25 <DocScrutinizer> .modest/local_folders/sent/cur/*
May 16 12:45:33 <internetishard> ok ok 
May 16 12:45:34 <internetishard> haha thanks
May 16 12:46:49 <DocScrutinizer> .modest/mail/pop/*/*/*
May 16 15:18:40 <Jaffa> GeneralAntilles: ping
May 16 15:18:45 <GeneralAntilles> Jaffa, pong?
May 16 15:49:42 <DocScrutinizer> ding
May 16 15:50:17 <Jaffa> dong
May 16 20:25:24 <DocScrutinizer> [general notice] voting for council election opened! Check your email! You should already have received your ballot (if you're eligible to vote, see http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Election_process ). also see http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_Q1/2_2012  and  http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_May_2012/Candidate_declarations
May 16 20:55:52 <DocScrutinizer> damn, I'm stupid. I don't understand how exactly the vote counting works :-S Could someone explain to me what's the meaning of e.g. >> Your vote will be counted for your first choice candidate as long as he is still in the race, and when he is eliminated, your vote will transfer to the next preference candidate still in the race.<<
May 16 20:56:24 <DocScrutinizer> WTF will "eliminate" a candidate?
May 16 20:56:33 <Cor-Ai> haha fight to the death!
May 16 20:56:53 <Sicelo> maybe getting few votes? :\
May 16 20:57:45 <DocScrutinizer> Sicelo: you're starting the counting with *all* candidates got "few" votes
May 16 20:57:59 <Woody14619> My understanding is that it's a run-off model election.  So, you can vote for all 7 in the order you want them.
May 16 20:58:04 <DocScrutinizer> to be precise: zarro
May 16 20:58:35 <DocScrutinizer> Woody14619: yes, but counting is obscure to me
May 16 20:59:00 <Sicelo> seems to me the statement refers to what will happen at the end ... so that if your first preferred candidate got few votes, your next prefered has a better chance, etc
May 16 20:59:27 <DocScrutinizer> yes, I get that, I can read
May 16 20:59:38 <Sicelo> :P
May 16 20:59:50 <DocScrutinizer> and that's what they say. What I don't get is the exact way votes are counted
May 16 21:00:35 <Woody14619> So if, at the end of elections say, the totals for each person is :  A=300, B=280, C=190, D=170, E=150, F=120, G=90.  Now, clearly, G is eliminated.  So if anyone had G in their top 5, G is eliminated, and the candidate they voted for as 6th choice gets their votes.
May 16 21:01:16 <DocScrutinizer> Woody14619: yo da man! this actually makes sense :-D
May 16 21:01:21 <Woody14619> So say I votes for A, B, G, E, F, C, D.  Once G is eliminated, my new vote set is A, B, E, F,C, D.   
May 16 21:01:45 <Woody14619> Thus C would get at least one more vote, because (s)he was in 6th place in my list before, and is now in 5th.
May 16 21:02:23 <DocScrutinizer> at least mostly
May 16 21:03:05 <DocScrutinizer> yes
May 16 21:03:47 <Woody14619> That cycle is repeated until there are only 6 candidates left.  (Or maybe 5, for the "official" tally, though 6 would be sufficient.)
May 16 21:04:50 <DocScrutinizer> I guess I'll refer to the source ;-D
May 16 21:04:52 <Woody14619> If order of the winners were important (I don't think it is) you would take it to 5 candidates, to make sure all votes were tallied.  
May 16 21:10:33 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.openstv.org/
May 16 21:11:11 <DocScrutinizer> >>Election options: Seat number = number of desired elected candidates (1 for referendum, 5 for council, etc); Threshold = Droop, Static, Whole; Delay surplus transfer = Off; Batch elimination = Zero;<<
May 16 21:13:33 <DocScrutinizer> >>The 5 nominees voted for most, as counted by a single transferrable vote system are elected.<<
May 16 21:14:02 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.openstv.org/single-transferable-vote
May 16 21:21:04 <DocScrutinizer> dang, this site is even more obscure in wording and rationale: >>Since floating-point arithmetic, some implementations round all calculations to a number of decimal places. This implementation does all computations in floating point.<<
May 16 21:22:12 <DocScrutinizer> da faq!
May 16 21:24:47 <jacekowski> it's overcomplicated
May 16 21:26:55 <GeneralAntilles> I recall the voting theory thread when we picked the election process.
May 16 21:27:04 <GeneralAntilles> Never bothered to understand much of it.
May 16 21:27:06 <DocScrutinizer> wikipedia FTW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Transferable_Vote#Counting_the_votes
May 16 21:46:03 <DocScrutinizer> voted. Traditionally that's boozetime ;-D
May 16 21:46:47 <DocScrutinizer> while in 14 minutes THE boozeday starts here in Germany
May 16 21:47:02 <DocScrutinizer> cheers
May 17 01:14:25 <Estel_> Does anyone remember ways of selecting Council's chair(man)?
May 17 01:15:02 <Estel_> For a moment I though it's person, who got most votes - which makes some sense - but it seems it's not
May 17 01:16:03 <Estel_> it's done via consensus amongst Councelors, or any way they feel fancy to decide it?
May 17 01:16:13 <GeneralAntilles> The council decides internally.
May 17 01:16:22 <GeneralAntilles> However they wish to go about it, but historically it's been consensus.
May 17 01:16:41 <Estel_> it's great, that many documentations is revived during current voting, see bugzilla and sources for voting system
May 17 01:16:46 <Estel_> I see, thanks.
May 17 01:16:48 <GeneralAntilles> First qualification is motivation to deal with all of the busywork. Second qualification is time to deal with all oft he buzywork.
May 17 01:17:56 <Estel_> ;) BTW, why You've put councelor * next to SD69? I know Jaffa asked You about it already, nor I suspect any bad intentions
May 17 01:18:06 <Estel_> I'm asking just out of curiosity
May 17 01:23:46 <GeneralAntilles> False memory of the last council selecting a chair.
May 17 01:24:02 <GeneralAntilles> I guess I didn't want to believe they NEVER MANAGED TO select a chair. . . .
May 17 01:26:48 <Estel_> ;) It's probably because 2/3 of them dissapeared just after election
May 17 01:27:12 <Estel_> as for jeremiah, no surprise here, but momcilo dissapearing wasn't expected :/
May 17 01:27:41 <Estel_> BTW I agree, that in such case, it's natural that SD69 was chair
May 17 01:28:13 <Estel_> but honestly, I must admit, that I haven't known about this position existence until few days before this situation started
May 17 01:39:58 <DocScrutinizer> the approach that "not asking for help" was most severe failure of recent council actually has a point
May 17 01:42:13 <DocScrutinizer> well, let's see how this pans out this time. It seems to me most candidates not even have an idea of the elementary purpose & duty of council, which is "stay in loop, LISTEN what community thinks and does". Hell, even the term "community" never been that fuzzy like it's today
May 17 01:42:58 <DocScrutinizer> there's o governance of community
May 17 01:43:02 <DocScrutinizer> no*
May 17 01:43:48 <DocScrutinizer> IOW we're not electing our president, we're appointing ambassadors
May 17 01:49:57 <DocScrutinizer> I honestly hope those ambassadors don't think they already know what's "the best for community"
May 17 02:01:11 <Estel_> well, I remember that SD69 asked for help many times, although, he don't used all available channels (IRC, mailing list) which sounds more proper than a TMO thread. But, I'm only such "wise" now ;)
May 17 02:01:36 <Estel_> also, asking for help without specify exact task is a little pointless
May 17 02:02:06 <Estel_> if You ask for general help, people generally agree to help, and it ends there ;)
May 17 02:02:29 <Estel_> BTW yea, I recognize the "ambassador vs ruler" thing
May 17 02:03:02 <Estel_> although, I feel that this Council may feel some thing like "ambassador + catalyst"
May 17 02:03:23 <Estel_> so referrendum may be used more times than during any Council period in history
May 17 02:05:19 <Estel_> Of course I'm sure no one feels "ruler" here. After all, if Council member feel that something needs to be done, he can a) talk about it in a way others will share her/his view and proceed b) do it on her/his own :P fortunatelly, no way to "decret" it
May 17 02:19:05 <DocScrutinizer> yep
May 17 02:20:40 <DocScrutinizer> (ask for help) I bet GAN950 and Jaffa are always willing to think 5 minutes about what might be about to go awry or has to be considered in the next future
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu May 17 02:59:59 2012