**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jun 08 02:59:59 2012 Jun 08 03:57:38 ~seen Estel^ Jun 08 03:57:43 estel^ <~Estel@178.180.151.251.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 17h 34m 1s ago, saying: 'teotwaki, LOL'. Jun 08 05:51:56 Hi Hurrian, whats up? Jun 08 05:52:18 rather search me per Estel_, Estel^ is just backup nick Jun 08 05:52:52 Pali, considering work on RE NOLO You're doing with jacekowski, could we expect U-Boot replacing NOLO totally soon? ;() Jun 08 05:53:07 s/;()/;)/ Jun 08 05:53:39 I know it's about mem atag, not replacement, but it seems, that You're getting info about how NOLO works, in details Jun 08 08:43:01 <[DarkGUNMAN]> morning all Jun 08 08:43:56 goodmorning. Jun 08 08:44:06 You geordie! Jun 08 08:44:30 * vi_ loves a bit o' nukie broon. Jun 08 08:45:10 Have you seen the guy on the forum asking if he can connect the wires of his charger directly to his battery terminals. Jun 08 08:45:10 ~stats Jun 08 08:45:11 Since Wed May 30 04:14:42 2012, there have been 73 modifications, 464 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 302 commands. I have been awake for 9d 4h 30m 28s this session, and currently reference 118598 factoids. I'm using about 24512 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 2554.35/56.2 child 0/0 Jun 08 08:45:15 ~channelstats Jun 08 08:45:20 hmm Jun 08 08:45:35 >100000 factoids! Jun 08 08:45:39 ~moron Jun 08 08:45:39 methinks moron is someone that types long lines starting with "infobot" Jun 08 08:45:49 ~moron vi_ Jun 08 08:47:25 ~rape vi_ Jun 08 08:47:25 * infobot takes vi_ behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams Jun 08 08:48:57 that is grim. Jun 08 08:49:26 ~teabag teotwaki Jun 08 08:49:26 * infobot invites teotwaki to join in yet another mindless gripe session Jun 08 08:49:56 Wrong kind of teabag infobot you doofus. Jun 08 08:50:14 ~factoids Jun 08 08:50:15 factoids are information that infobot can learn and then reply with. "/msg infobot help" for more info. Jun 08 08:50:38 ~teste teotwaki Jun 08 08:50:46 ~testes teotwaki Jun 08 08:50:53 ~gonad teotwaki Jun 08 08:51:09 ~slap vi_ Jun 08 08:51:10 * infobot slaps vi_, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! Jun 08 08:51:24 ~lameometer vi_ Jun 08 08:51:26 'vi_' is 0.000% lame, teotwaki Jun 08 08:51:31 cool Jun 08 08:51:51 ~lameometer r00t|home Jun 08 08:51:53 'r00t|home' is 98.830% lame, teotwaki Jun 08 08:51:58 wait. Jun 08 08:52:07 How are these figures calculated? Jun 08 08:52:16 amount of weird chars in a nickname Jun 08 08:52:17 ~lameometer teotwaki Jun 08 08:52:18 'teotwaki' is 0.000% lame, vi_ Jun 08 08:52:18 0 Jun 08 08:52:34 ~lameometer f4gg0ts4th4w1n Jun 08 08:52:35 'f4gg0ts4th4w1n' is 59.000% lame, teotwaki Jun 08 08:52:53 ~lameometer ~~||"£ife Jun 08 08:52:55 '~~||"£ife' is 99.963% lame, teotwaki Jun 08 08:59:53 <[DarkGUNMAN]> hello vi_ Jun 08 09:01:11 <[DarkGUNMAN]> yes I am geordie, and yeah it is mental he's wiring up the charger directly! Jun 08 09:03:21 <[DarkGUNMAN]> unfortunately newcastle brown ale isn't the pure stuff anymore since it's produced in tadcaster noew :( Jun 08 09:08:07 <[DarkGUNMAN]> ..and I'm annoyed I haven't managed to fix the usb port Jun 08 09:10:35 <[DarkGUNMAN]> sod it Jun 08 09:12:46 <[DarkGUNMAN]> vi_ you been meddling much with compcache? Jun 08 09:14:09 Darkchaos: yes I have... Jun 08 09:14:31 <[DarkGUNMAN]> recent settings have been working okay to a point, so I'm messing with diskspace reported / actual memory used to try and get swap to run soley in RAM Jun 08 09:15:03 I have tried that. Jun 08 09:15:13 There is _just_ not enough RAM. Jun 08 09:15:26 DarkGUNMAN, that's not happening, ever Jun 08 09:15:44 unless you only use N900 for calls and SMS, it's eventually going to OOM Jun 08 09:18:33 * vi_ would happily take a CPU hit for higher compcache compression. Jun 08 09:20:29 <[DarkGUNMAN]> disksize_kb=524288 memlimit_kb=65536 seems to satisfy maemo there is enough diskspace, but 64Mb before compression is too low before cpu goes mental. Gonna try some other settings later just for the hell of it once the batter is charged up..... Jun 08 09:46:29 [DarkGUNMAN]: you have my attention... Jun 08 09:55:03 <[DarkGUNMAN]> vi_ to change ramzswap on the hop without reboot, swapoff /dev/ramzswap0, rmmod /lib/modules/current/ramzswap.ko, insmod /lib/modules/current/ramzswap.ko disksize_kb=524288 memlimit_kb=163840, swapon /dev/ramzswap0 Jun 08 09:56:21 <[DarkGUNMAN]> memlimit sets the ram level to use before compression, afterwhich cpu goes crazy until hthe program passing the memlimit is closed, then it seems to return to normal Jun 08 09:56:56 <[DarkGUNMAN]> trying multiples of 1.5, no crashes Jun 08 10:03:35 'cpu goes crazy'? Jun 08 10:07:53 dafox: kswapd, the process that deals with the swapping goes nuts swapping shit left and right/ Jun 08 10:08:30 so only the program actually using lots of ram is affected? Jun 08 10:11:41 Is there any way to change the encoding in the terminal to latin-1? Or any alternative to osso-xterm that can be installed and allowing latin-1? Jun 08 10:12:04 n810 had this feature Jun 08 10:13:05 I need a terminal that still will give Ctrl, Esc, Tab, Page up, Page down easily Jun 08 10:13:45 ~chaninfo Jun 08 10:13:45 123/123 channels, 5025 users, 3643 unique: #debian/1195, #kde/372, #gsoc/282, #maemo/274, #meego/203, #asterisk/167, #harmattan/166, #oe/145, #wowuidev/141, #webos-internals/121, #wowace/119, #openmoko/93, #wowhead/90, #openmoko-cdevel/73, #uclibc/72, #utah/64, #htc-linux/63, #arm-netbook/62, #n9/60, #tomcat/60, #diablofans/59, #bzflag/58, #edev/57, #qi-hardware/56, #curseforge/55, #asterisk-dev/46, #maemo-ssu/44, #flow3/44, #elinux/38, ... Jun 08 10:14:05 ~chaninfo #maemo Jun 08 10:14:05 On #maemo, there have been 1 Ban, 2 Deops, 2274 Joins, 2 Kicks, 2 Ops, 68 Parts, 6943 PublicMsgs and 2209 SignOffs. At the moment, 1 Voice, 1 Opped and 274 Total. turl has said the most with a total of 849 messages. Jun 08 10:15:47 I am using my n900 very often to do ssh into a computer with latin1 Jun 08 10:19:04 I thought UTF-8 > latin1? Jun 08 10:19:49 vi_: no, it can not handle Scandinavian characters, like åäö Jun 08 10:20:14 uh...utf-8 can handle scandinavian characters. Jun 08 10:20:25 yes, but not from systems with latin1 Jun 08 10:20:42 it is not backward compatible to latin1 Jun 08 10:20:46 ...not in the same way as UTF-8, that is correct :) Jun 08 10:22:29 * mgedmin thinks switching that legacy system to utf-8 would be a better time investment Jun 08 10:22:41 To me it looks like the most important function (the terminal) is only half made in n900 :( Jun 08 10:23:17 mgedmin: The remote system is OpenBSD (which still uses latin1) Jun 08 10:23:33 O.O Jun 08 10:23:40 in 2012? latin1? Jun 08 10:23:43 hi mgedmin Jun 08 10:23:48 * mgedmin waves Jun 08 10:23:51 Does anyone know about a luit package for n900? It would solve the problem Jun 08 10:26:09 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if ssh devels haven't thought about the situation when destination platform has a different encoding than local xterm Jun 08 10:29:03 DocScrutinizer05: Maybe because the UNIX philosophy is to do only one thing, and that well. OpenSSH is developed by the OpenBSD team, and OpenBSD includes luit for converting between encodings Jun 08 10:29:20 DocScrutinizer05: You can use luit as a wrapper for ssh. Jun 08 10:30:23 aaah, I see Jun 08 10:30:49 mrcarrot, have you considered running openssh inside easy-debian? Jun 08 10:31:03 so how hard could it get to build luit for fremantle? Jun 08 10:31:43 Hurrian: can I still use osso-xterm? I mean, the normal terminals makes it hard to press things like ESC Jun 08 10:32:12 mrcarrot: You could use xterm and map esc, tab, etc on you keyboard/ Jun 08 10:32:16 ^. Jun 08 10:32:19 mrcarrot, "sudo debian" gives you all of debian inside osso-xterm Jun 08 10:32:23 check wiki "customizing maemo"->"keymap" Jun 08 10:32:33 Hurrian: thanks Jun 08 10:32:46 Hurrian: that will be the solution! Jun 08 10:33:36 [DarkGUNMAN]: I think memlimit_kb is only used when you have a backing swap. Jun 08 10:33:56 AFAI there is somthing broken with backing swap in our compcache. Jun 08 10:34:08 You would need to ask FMG. Jun 08 10:34:32 There fore, only disksize_kb parameter is used. Jun 08 10:35:33 tab is ctrl-i anyway Jun 08 10:35:47 ;-) Jun 08 10:35:58 HOLY Jun 08 10:36:00 SHIT. Jun 08 10:36:08 vi_, not really "broken", but "extremely, unusably slow" Jun 08 10:36:10 I did not know of this ctrl-i Jun 08 10:36:18 vi_: lol Jun 08 10:36:35 DocScrutinizer05: after I spent days remapping my 'board. Jun 08 10:36:54 Hurrian: Does anyone know why it is slow? Jun 08 10:37:17 DocScrutinizer05: is there one for activating the pointer for highlighting text? Jun 08 10:37:21 vi_: so what other key-combo would you map Jun 08 10:37:45 I have blue+return==tab Jun 08 10:37:52 YAY Jun 08 10:38:03 shift+backspace==escape Jun 08 10:38:12 well... Jun 08 10:38:31 blue+arrows=page up/down+home/end. Jun 08 10:38:42 esc is ctrl-[ or sth, not really convenient to press on N900 kbd ;-D Jun 08 10:39:25 I have the entire 4th level populated with all the special characters + F1-F11 Jun 08 10:39:36 \o/ Jun 08 10:39:38 cool Jun 08 10:40:02 F11 is actually nasty Jun 08 10:40:17 My favourite is blue+question mark makes a full stop. Jun 08 10:40:29 to get a ? you need blue+shift. Jun 08 10:40:30 F1-F10 are usually equiv to esc-1 ..esc-0 Jun 08 10:40:46 This allows you to type in IP addresses without deactivating fn-lock. Jun 08 10:40:55 DocScrutinizer05: I did not know that. Jun 08 10:41:40 vi_: (dot) very nice and convenient Jun 08 10:41:59 yup, I have the same for space/@. Jun 08 10:42:14 Moved @ to next level up so I can have space with fn pressed. Jun 08 10:42:23 mega pain in the balls turning fn on/off. Jun 08 10:42:29 yep Jun 08 10:43:07 One I have never managed to get working is blue+backspace==delete Jun 08 10:43:23 It _just does not work_ for some reason. Jun 08 10:43:42 Meh, xkb is a workd of pain and hurt. Jun 08 10:44:32 that's because blue-bs is handled by hildon-desktop and thus probably never reaches xterm Jun 08 10:44:41 ffs Jun 08 10:44:42 oops, nope Jun 08 10:44:46 layer upon layer of fuck. Jun 08 10:44:48 ctrl-bs Jun 08 10:45:21 I'm still dizzy, sorry Jun 08 10:45:34 Going back to stock KB is like being crippled. Jun 08 10:46:01 Now all I need is a way to increase xterm font size then I can leave the osso-xterm bs behind. Jun 08 10:46:04 I bet it is Jun 08 10:46:53 hmm, leave osso-xterm behind? Jun 08 10:47:11 yes, for a real xterm Jun 08 10:47:21 aaah Jun 08 10:47:22 xterm, roxterm, mrxvt, etc Jun 08 10:47:36 they support middle click pasting. Jun 08 10:47:52 and have 'highlight' when I drag my mouse. Jun 08 10:47:55 middleclick is a tad tricky on N900 Jun 08 10:48:03 Nuh uh. Jun 08 10:48:19 With xbindkeys, it is just another shortcut. Jun 08 10:48:31 blue+click==middle click Jun 08 10:48:32 unless you use usb mouse ;-P Jun 08 10:48:39 o.O Jun 08 10:48:45 per default? Jun 08 10:48:49 shift+click==right click. Jun 08 10:48:52 no! Jun 08 10:48:58 you have to use xbindkeys. Jun 08 10:49:07 aah, I see Jun 08 10:49:38 man, vi_, where is all that documented? where's your howto-page? Jun 08 10:49:41 so everything is working on xterm except the stupid fonts. Jun 08 10:49:50 I don't have one -_-. Jun 08 10:50:05 ~spank vi_ Jun 08 10:50:06 * infobot bends vi_ over his knee and tatoos 'ibot' on vi_'s pasty white buttocks. Jun 08 10:50:14 It is just TMO folklore, handed down through PMs Jun 08 10:52:05 I would like to document the KB stuff, however where do I write it? Jun 08 10:52:11 A post on TMO gets buried. Jun 08 10:52:20 So that leaves the wiki. Jun 08 10:52:35 How do you possibly add stuff like this to the wiki? Jun 08 10:52:53 Without a major re-write? Jun 08 10:52:58 vi_, meh, wiki needs serious restructuring Jun 08 10:53:04 Or do I just start a competing page? Jun 08 10:54:05 meh, try to mosh it into whatever the page is for custom keyboard on N900 Jun 08 10:54:18 Hurrian: that page is one of the worst. Jun 08 10:54:28 Other people have tried to do just that. Jun 08 10:54:29 if it's better than everything, wipe it and replace it with your method Jun 08 10:54:37 And the page is just filled with shit. Jun 08 10:55:37 Take the OC page for example. Jun 08 10:56:03 There is this jakiman overclock guide that shows in the simplest possible terms how to OC. Jun 08 10:56:22 However it does not actually explain what any of the shit he is writing does. Jun 08 10:56:27 meh, i Jun 08 10:56:42 meh, i'm bored, i'll probably try to rewrite that later tonight Jun 08 10:57:07 OK. Jun 08 10:57:12 IU will do the same. Jun 08 10:57:28 I will create a new page called 'how to map your KB like a boss'. Jun 08 10:57:36 geez, page is labeled overclocking, but undervolting should be included too Jun 08 10:57:46 And just dump my confs. Jun 08 10:57:51 vi: I'm sure I saw a Dilbert on that. Jun 08 10:58:02 SpeedEvil: what? Jun 08 10:58:28 'how to map your KB like a boss'. Jun 08 10:59:15 vi_: just create a new wiki page, under the original one Jun 08 10:59:59 link from wiki.m.o/original to wiki.m.o/original/myPage Jun 08 11:02:08 http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo#Keyboard_characters http://wiki.maemo.org/Remapping_keyboard http://wiki.maemo.org/Remapping_keyboard/user_vis_awesome_kbdmapping Jun 08 11:24:06 vi_: just dump your confs there (last URL) Jun 08 11:24:20 DocScrutinizer05: sure Jun 08 11:25:09 see http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Subsystems#Keyboard for borked 3-key pairs Jun 08 11:25:11 I will have to fix it later, ya know with some vi sarcasm and dry rudeness. Jun 08 11:25:42 wtf is a 3-key pair??? Jun 08 11:25:45 ;-P Jun 08 11:26:45 DocScrutinizer: the third key is the one who has to endure the couple kissing and being all cute, all the while having to hear "Don't worry, you'll find someone special soon enough". Jun 08 11:27:16 And replying to himself: "I don't give a fuck about someone special, I just want to get laid, bitch". Jun 08 11:27:20 teotwaki: we call him 'the fucking onion' Jun 08 11:27:29 vi_: fucking onion? :D Jun 08 11:33:00 DocScrutinizer, the omap3430 doesn't have on-die temp sensor, right? Jun 08 11:33:14 it's just a sensor somewhere near the CPU Jun 08 11:33:17 "Following Ray Bradbury's Death, Thousands Of People Buy Kindle Version Of Book About Demise Of Paper Books" Jun 08 11:34:10 Hurrian: I thought it was the battery sensor? Jun 08 11:34:18 yeah, you're right, that's it Jun 08 11:35:29 Hurrian: I think it has, but it's defect in silicon Jun 08 11:35:31 IIRC, it's a 10 or 100k thermistor, had a funky easy to remember little name, R111110 or R1110 or something Jun 08 11:36:04 10k Jun 08 11:36:18 whoa, *looks at his hands like Keanu Reeves in The Matrix*: I know electronics! Jun 08 11:36:20 on ADCIN1, or4, or0 Jun 08 11:37:56 Hurrian: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic Jun 08 11:38:02 ADCIN0 Jun 08 11:38:08 it seems /sys/bus/platform/devices/omap34xx_temp is CPU die temp, but as mentioned it's defect and deprectaed Jun 08 11:38:39 actually /sys/devices/platform/omap34xx_temp/temp1_input Jun 08 11:38:55 Sad day, our usenet moderator mailing list is being decommissioned Jun 08 11:40:06 watch cat /sys/devices/platform/omap34xx_temp/temp1_input Jun 08 11:40:23 will eventually freeze, or show complete bogus values Jun 08 11:40:38 or just outright refuse to work at all Jun 08 11:41:02 "Physicists Discover Our Universe Is Fictional Setting Of Cop Show Called 'Hard Case'" Jun 08 11:45:39 cat /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-2/2-0029/adc* is UV and complete-spectrum ALS it seems Jun 08 11:48:21 battery sensor (10k) is under /dev/twl4030-adc (ioctl) Jun 08 11:49:28 the usually used "battery temp" as of bq27k-detail is just a random die temperature of some random chip somewhere on the N900, useless to read it out Jun 08 11:51:09 cat /sys/devices/platform/nokia-av/madc might be related to... Tadaaa: the AV receptacle Jun 08 11:51:31 How can I setup USB networking? I tried http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking, but while at some point I was able to ping the host from the phone, I now cannot even do that. Jun 08 11:51:51 Can I use NetworkManager to set it up for example? Jun 08 11:52:28 I also wasn't able to do any kind of DNS queries on the phone. Jun 08 11:53:19 The instructions which are given on that page seem incomplete given that others have expressed similar problems. Isn't there some easier way to get it to work? Jun 08 11:54:39 The gateway for the phone is at 192.168.3.14, the phone is 192.168.3.15. Jun 08 11:54:41 from `man watch`: >>(Note that -p isn’t guaranteed to work across reboots, especially in the face of ntpdate or other bootup time-changing mechanisms)<< HAHA suuuure Jun 08 11:57:40 DocScrutinizer05: Just for you. Jun 08 11:57:44 DocScrutinizer05: http://wiki.maemo.org/Remapping_keyboard/user_vis_awesome_kbdmapping Jun 08 11:59:26 vi_: great Jun 08 11:59:28 :-) Jun 08 12:00:43 cat /sys/devices/platform/nokia-av/madc :: 1023 for no plug or AV-cable with yellow RCA plug open, 5..6 with 3pin headphone plug plugged in Jun 08 12:03:04 Ok, I got pinging to work. Jun 08 12:03:04 Ok, I got pinging to work. Jun 08 12:06:00 vi_: please check "indentation" Jun 08 12:06:24 >> partial hidden alphanumeric_keys xkb_symbols "english_base" { << is missing leading space Jun 08 12:06:58 or not? Jun 08 12:07:39 fasta_: I routinely use USB networking to ssh in to my N900, and can help you with concise questions, but will have to be away from the computer shortly. Is there anything in particular I can help you with? Jun 08 12:07:56 fasta_: I can see if I can paste my connect-to-USB scripts, if it helps. Jun 08 12:08:24 DocScrutinizer05: fixd Jun 08 12:08:49 kwtm: please do! Jun 08 12:09:13 vi_: ?? Wait, are you asking about USB netting or was it fasta_? Jun 08 12:10:48 it was fasta, however I am also interested in this. Jun 08 12:11:50 In that case, I'm going to give you homework. Could you please post this in talk.maemo.org so that others can also benefit? ... although I gotta make sure I clean up my scripts before I present them in public. :P Jun 08 12:14:07 kwtm: I mostly seem to have issues with the network manager part. Jun 08 12:14:24 kwtm: I can _either_ have eth0 internet or an usb0 connection, but not both. Jun 08 12:14:48 Kind of ridiculous, but I think I will just try the Gnome network manager to see whether I can get it to work. Jun 08 12:14:56 The KDE one doesn't make sense to me. Jun 08 12:15:07 Without a GUI might even be better, but that's impossible, right? Jun 08 12:15:17 I mean, while still using network manager. Jun 08 12:15:28 fasta_: Interesting. That is not my case. I routinely ssh into it by USB and tell it to get things by mobile network, so definitely I can network two things ... although I can't specifically remember that it was WiFi and USB (rather than mobile & usb) Jun 08 12:16:00 fasta_: Not sure what you mean. Still interested in the scripts? I have one on the N900 and one on my Kubuntu laptop end, and when I run both, I can connect by USB. Jun 08 12:16:03 kwtm: I want to configure usb-networking from host to phone. Jun 08 12:16:22 kwtm: I think I already wrote such scripts myself. Jun 08 12:16:33 kwtm: thanks for the offer. Jun 08 12:16:36 fasta_: Right. That's what I do. I run a script on N900 as root, then run a script on the laptop as sudo, then I can connect to N900. Jun 08 12:16:42 Ok, no problem. Jun 08 12:16:45 kwtm: I automated this already. Jun 08 12:16:47 Hope you solve your problems. Jun 08 12:16:55 kwtm: I.e., I don't need to run any script. Jun 08 12:17:02 (or at least not manually) Jun 08 12:17:42 I am also quite confused with the routes. Jun 08 12:17:43 you think that could be part of the problem? Something is being done automatically without your being aware? Jun 08 12:17:51 No, the problem is with the routes. Jun 08 12:18:03 Ok. Good luck with the routes. Jun 08 12:18:05 So, there isn't a route which says 'for phone traffic, go there.' Jun 08 12:18:17 But I am not a networking expert. Jun 08 12:18:31 (I don't get why they get their interfaces so ugly) Jun 08 12:18:35 Alright. Let me know if you want me to run something on my N900, like the output of command "route" or something. Jun 08 12:18:44 kwtm: yeah, that would be helpful. Jun 08 12:18:51 The holy grail is booting a live distro off the N900 in mass storage mode. Then switching over to USB networking so we can access the N900 eMMC/SD AND browse the net over GPRS/3G. Jun 08 12:18:54 kwtm: both on your desktop and your phone. Jun 08 12:19:08 What would be helpful? Tell me specifically what to do. I need to be away for a moment, will come back. Jun 08 12:19:24 kwtm: execute route on your phone and on your desktop as root Jun 08 12:22:31 fasta_: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1030279/ Jun 08 12:22:42 fasta_: the whole usb-networking is for usecase: share PC's internet via USB to N900 Jun 08 12:22:56 DocScrutinizer06: I know Jun 08 12:23:14 if you want to do: share N900 internet to PC, you have to swap roles of the both devices Jun 08 12:23:42 on N900 default kernel, there are some bits missing for that Jun 08 12:23:58 fasta_: I should clarify: I am NOT sharing N900 internet to PC, just connect via USB so I can use PC keyboard, not tiny N900 keyboard. Let me know if my info is still useful to you. Jun 08 12:24:13 kwtm: I also want to do that. Jun 08 12:24:13 at least afaik Jun 08 12:24:23 kwtm: 192.168.2.0 * 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0 usb0 Jun 08 12:24:30 ok, let me know if route output helpful or something else. Jun 08 12:24:31 kwtm: what does this line mean in human language? Jun 08 12:25:11 I get the usb0 part and the zeros aren't really important I think. Jun 08 12:25:15 fasta_: Other people more expert here, but basically, I think it means "anything going to the IP address 192.168.2.* will be routed through USB" Jun 08 12:25:17 I also get the 255 part. Jun 08 12:25:54 kwtm: yup Jun 08 12:26:01 Ok, thanks. Jun 08 12:28:46 fasta_: what is it you want to do? Jun 08 12:29:12 vi_: You wanted the scripts. Here is the N900 part: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1030289/ Jun 08 12:29:38 DocScrutinizer06: ssh into phone via USB such that I can use my pc keyboard to execute commands on the phone. Jun 08 12:30:20 DocScrutinizer06: so, to do that, I first need to have proper networking configured. Jun 08 12:30:21 for that the routes should already do the trick Jun 08 12:30:35 DocScrutinizer06: yes, but I don't have those routes. Jun 08 12:31:00 Anyway, there is little to help now, as I first need to try something based on your earlier suggestions. Jun 08 12:32:02 http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/unsorted/neo-ssh Jun 08 12:32:44 just edit the IP addr in there Jun 08 12:33:53 vi_: You wanted the scripts. Here is the desktop end of it. http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1030296/ Jun 08 12:33:58 watch out your N900 IP addr is not on same subnet as your other stuff on PC Jun 08 12:34:16 (I.E. not both on 192.168.1.*) Jun 08 12:34:40 neo-ssh? A little matrixy, are we? :) Jun 08 12:34:57 Openmoko Neo Freerunner aka GTA02 Jun 08 12:35:09 MS LIED TO US! THE BETA TEST IS *NOT* OVER! Jun 08 12:35:17 lol Jun 08 12:35:29 Oh. Sorry. I thought the Matrix was entirely contained within your N900. Jun 08 12:35:55 DOes openmoko run Maemo? If I see an old one, I could pick it up and use it like a N900? Jun 08 12:36:05 no Jun 08 12:36:08 o Jun 08 12:36:10 no Jun 08 12:36:15 openmoko runs nothing Jun 08 12:36:19 it runs a lot of OS but not maemo Jun 08 12:36:26 people run FROM openmoko Jun 08 12:36:29 Oh, well. I guess I'm still stuck with the N900 then. Jun 08 12:36:30 after using it. Jun 08 12:36:31 vi_: lol! Jun 08 12:36:53 vi_: your very own problem Jun 08 12:37:17 DocScrutinizer, You would know about rebinding hardware keyboard of N900 properly, if You would read TMO ;) It was mentioned in thread, where You've also posted Jun 08 12:37:18 I admit. I have never actually seen one in real life. Jun 08 12:37:41 I have full sized keyboard mnapped to n900 one :P Jun 08 12:37:45 without changing layouts Jun 08 12:38:05 fasta_: Best of luck. Jun 08 12:38:13 vi_, honestly, Your assumption about running from wasn't so far from truth Jun 08 12:38:19 nice idea, terrible implementation Jun 08 12:38:42 It was a joke. I have no opinion on the openmoko. I know pratically nothing about it. Jun 08 12:38:42 IMO, of course Jun 08 12:38:52 I got pleasure of testing one Jun 08 12:38:57 I noticed that Jun 08 12:39:11 s/got/had/ Jun 08 12:39:11 Estel_ meant: I had pleasure of testing one Jun 08 12:39:27 most people commenting on OM have no idea at all, or at least very poor knowledge Jun 08 12:39:50 oooh fuck, another regex due for my ignore Jun 08 12:39:58 vi_, it's a pity especially, that much hard work and knowledge were involve din creating them - yet, someone there was lacking "vision" Jun 08 12:40:50 We engineers are not product designers. Jun 08 12:41:08 vi_, it will be little oxxagerated, but imagine smallest N900 with ~2.5 size screen with crappy resolution, without keyboard, running OS2006 Jun 08 12:41:16 I have this GUI, where I need to fill in IP address:192.168.3.14, Netmask:???, Gateway:???, Metric:???. What do I need to put in the place of the ??? ? Jun 08 12:41:32 vi_: eh? Jun 08 12:41:32 where task like pairing BLuetooth headset to have working phone calls is something out of scope for even biggest minds of their time ;) Jun 08 12:41:56 fasta_, netmask is you... netmask. Most likely, 255.255.255.0 Jun 08 12:42:14 gateway - is, well, gateway. Next gateway Your connection is going through. Probably, router Jun 08 12:42:16 access point Jun 08 12:42:18 or whatever Jun 08 12:42:27 Metric - leave this alone if You don't know what it does :p Jun 08 12:45:41 They need a power control on a device. We say, no problem! just put a pot on the front panel, job done. The product 'designer' comes along and says 'a knob!! are you insane? this is not 1970 anymore, now we use touch buttons and LEDs'. The engineer starts to respond 'but that adds a whole extra layer of ffffffuck to the design'. The design 'engineer' says but it has to look sexy! and I want it as a ifone app'. 'but, but, but we say'. Jun 08 12:45:54 vi_: GTA02 wasn't bad hardware wise for its time , and has an excellent 640*480 LCD. OS though never got mature, but in the end that's a community problem, as OM was definitely not selling the device as a complete end-user ready product Jun 08 12:46:29 openmoko doesn't run anything? :) Jun 08 12:46:39 BUT IT HAS OPEN IN THE NAME!! Jun 08 12:47:39 GTA04 uses same screen, same body, and cost 666 euro for 512 RAM :/ Jun 08 12:47:40 I worked in a company making DML speakers. The MD of 'engineering' was obsessed with making it work with his ifone. He wanted it to be an ifone dock. I said, 'make it bluetooth, then it will work with everything! (more or less)'. Jun 08 12:47:48 He said: Jun 08 12:47:49 vi_: and yes, at OM we also had a "design 'engineer'" Jun 08 12:48:10 'I am not sure bluetooth is going to be big' Jun 08 12:48:22 (or words to that effect, I cannot recall exactly). Jun 08 12:48:31 ...which is answer why it resulted in computer bundled into form of dummbphone, failing to be any of those Jun 08 12:48:45 I almost coughed my cornish pastie over my zx81. Jun 08 12:48:57 honestly, N900 design for is close to ideal. I mean screen covering whole front face, buttons and sides, and slide-out keyboard Jun 08 12:48:59 + size Jun 08 12:49:04 The word 'engineer' gets bandied about to often these days. Jun 08 12:49:08 a little bigger would be acceptable too, smaller - never Jun 08 12:49:59 BTW, vi_ , You're aware that we're working on 5A-6A battery for N900?:P Jun 08 12:50:26 Estel_: my n900 is fat enough already! Jun 08 12:50:34 using mugen cover size Jun 08 12:50:36 approximatelyt Jun 08 12:50:41 If I configured something in network manager, is it applied directly? Jun 08 12:50:55 lol, i'm not talking about making it bigger, after all we can always connect car accu :P Jun 08 12:51:01 will an 1850 fit inside a mugen cover? Jun 08 12:51:11 18650, won't using standard body Jun 08 12:51:12 ^18650 Jun 08 12:51:14 using replacement body, yes Jun 08 12:51:20 if You get rid of bl-57 slot Jun 08 12:51:26 what about some 14500s? Jun 08 12:51:26 and put there 18650 onek, instead Jun 08 12:51:31 DocScrutinizer06: I see that the digits at the end of your nick are incrementing. Should we celebrate for when you turn 10? :) Jun 08 12:51:35 nope, 14500 got crap capacity and are overpriced Jun 08 12:51:42 it's like AAA batteries Jun 08 12:51:46 AA Jun 08 12:51:49 no, AAA Jun 08 12:51:52 AA are normal Jun 08 12:51:53 AA Jun 08 12:52:00 AAA are smaller, live shorter, and cost the same or more Jun 08 12:52:12 I know, 14500 are AA size Jun 08 12:52:27 But I'm also considering different type flat batteries Jun 08 12:52:37 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AA_battery Jun 08 12:52:45 ttI know what is AA battery ;) Jun 08 12:52:58 kwtm: new laptop (T500), new irc client Jun 08 12:52:59 AA=14mm*50mm Jun 08 12:53:11 and 06 is the relogin Jun 08 12:53:18 i meant, that, like AAA are overpriced comapred to AA,14500 are overpriced compared to 186500 Jun 08 12:54:07 vi_, next 10 days (from monday) i'll be on trip, and I'll do first prototypes of custom backcover Jun 08 12:54:10 allu one Jun 08 12:54:19 with accomodation to radio signals Jun 08 12:54:31 after finishing backcove,r I'm going to do body replacement Jun 08 12:55:18 and belive me, I'm going to put 5A or 6A battery there :P Jun 08 12:55:34 5Ah, even Jun 08 12:56:11 Estel_: wouldn't you be better stuffing a lipo pouch in the space? Jun 08 12:56:37 probably not Jun 08 12:57:09 If You know decent one of good size Jun 08 12:57:14 and good capacity Jun 08 12:57:21 ...that won't disssapear like scuds... Jun 08 12:57:26 awright, Overclocking page updated to better reflect current state of OC and UX Jun 08 12:57:27 *UV Jun 08 12:57:37 Ultra Violet? Jun 08 12:57:42 * vi_ raises his glass to Hurrian. Jun 08 12:57:54 >.2.2.2.1 Nokia's kernel Jun 08 12:57:54 vi_, phillips release 3400 mAh 18650 recently Jun 08 12:58:11 and I bet it's not their last word Jun 08 12:58:17 Estel_: hah, at 20mA discharge I bet! Jun 08 12:58:22 I bet that we will have 8Ah battery soon, too Jun 08 12:58:24 nope Jun 08 12:58:25 C10 Jun 08 12:58:26 Hurrian: I didn't realize OC and UV had a changing current state Jun 08 12:58:57 vi_, whatever, N900 on idle with GSM on haved 4-8 mA discharge :P Jun 08 12:59:35 Hurrian, link please? Jun 08 12:59:45 BTw, hurrian, remind me, do You submitted to CA? Jun 08 13:01:27 Estel_, yeah Jun 08 13:01:57 Estel_:http://wiki.maemo.org/Overclocking Jun 08 13:03:12 I';mstill surprised, that vi_ submitted *only* for N950, i.e. won't accept N9 in cas eof N950 being already submitted Jun 08 13:03:39 after all, for price of N9, one can have many N900's Jun 08 13:03:59 Hurrian, nice job Jun 08 13:04:26 bah, fixed 
's
Jun 08 13:04:33  it's been years since I used that tag
Jun 08 13:06:13  Estel_: why?
Jun 08 13:06:17  I want an N950
Jun 08 13:06:32  When you select the winners you will find there is extra pressure for N950s
Jun 08 13:06:46  you will then prioritise N950s for people who asked for N950s only.
Jun 08 13:09:19  I am not entering because I want free fonez
Jun 08 13:09:36  If I wanted an N9 I would have bought one by now.
Jun 08 13:12:14  Estel_, thanks
Jun 08 13:21:30  TODO: turn the tables into actual tables
Jun 08 13:21:39  TODO: make the kernel-power page not awful
Jun 08 13:22:51  +1
Jun 08 13:23:00  always wanted to do that, and never got enough free time
Jun 08 13:23:49  Hi, back from short vacation :)
Jun 08 13:25:30  nice to see You MrPingu  :)
Jun 08 13:25:34  hoep You enjoyed it
Jun 08 13:26:26  sure! 4 days with 12 other peers and knowing that your parents are about 100Km away feels great :P
Jun 08 13:28:13  I see there's a new CSSU :)  
Jun 08 13:31:48  Fsck, they send me another fake digitizer :(
Jun 08 13:32:51  Anyone knows a good website where they sell 100% genuine N900 digitizers?
Jun 08 13:33:25  :/
Jun 08 13:33:28  how fake?
Jun 08 13:33:57  Uhm, lcd is a bit off to left from the view-window
Jun 08 13:34:07  no keyboard-sensor-magnet
Jun 08 13:34:17  EH?
Jun 08 13:34:45  it's a bit bigger, no serial numbe
Jun 08 13:34:46  what got kbd magnet to do with digitizer?
Jun 08 13:35:16  well I ordered a whole frontcover ;)
Jun 08 13:35:29  err, mhm
Jun 08 13:36:09  Still, no serial number is defenitely fake!
Jun 08 13:36:38  maybe, maybe not
Jun 08 13:37:05  I got some high res pics, fake compared to original ;)
Jun 08 13:37:11  Lemme find them ;)
Jun 08 13:37:15  fine, show them
Jun 08 13:37:46  I'd actually love to see a fake digitizer
Jun 08 13:38:33  it's kinda incredible they copy such stuff, given the extremely low sales figures they might expect
Jun 08 13:38:43  I get a routing table like this now: http://paste.kde.org/495434/
Jun 08 13:38:57  I don't understand why I get such weird device names, though.
Jun 08 13:39:15  And basically with that routing table, I cannot use the Internet via eth0.
Jun 08 13:41:27  yay, that looks nasty
Jun 08 13:41:34  Docscrutinizer05, well another problem with my fake frontcover is that the images of the first welcome screen (setting time) couldn't be found
Jun 08 13:41:55  ???
Jun 08 13:42:15  dafuq cover has to do with welcome screen?
Jun 08 13:42:32  vi__ dont ask me :P
Jun 08 13:42:44  fasta_: no surprise
Jun 08 13:42:55  really, when I replaced it, I booted
Jun 08 13:43:11  Well battery was long enough out to make it forget it's time
Jun 08 13:43:27  then you get booted into welcome-screen
Jun 08 13:43:38  DocScrutinizer05: well, I am also not hugely surprised, but I am surprised by rename4. 
Jun 08 13:43:40  sounds like more than your cover is broke.
Jun 08 13:43:56  DocScrutinizer05: also, can you say something which solves the problem?
Jun 08 13:44:07  MrPingu, wtf?
Jun 08 13:44:09  fasta_: this whole routing is one huge mess I'd say
Jun 08 13:44:15  is welcome screen all boxes?
Jun 08 13:44:17  to my surprise: All buttons where displayed with a big red tekxt image not found
Jun 08 13:44:22  DocScrutinizer05: I agree. 
Jun 08 13:44:39  DocScrutinizer05: but I don't see any instructions anywhere on how to setup something decent with network-manager.
Jun 08 13:44:41  MrPingu, it definitelly doesn't have anything to do with digitizer
Jun 08 13:44:46  fasta_: I found sometimes kernel soesn't recover from messed up routing, you need reboot to restore normal operation
Jun 08 13:44:46  opt is fecked up
Jun 08 13:44:53  so something in the upper-part of N900 contains these images ;)
Jun 08 13:44:54  DocScrutinizer05: I know exactly what I want, but I just cannot express it.
Jun 08 13:44:58  MrPingu, as vi__ said, Your opt was not connected
Jun 08 13:45:06  I can express it in human language perfectly.
Jun 08 13:45:09  no, really it doesn't
Jun 08 13:45:22  No way, I mean I even reflashed
Jun 08 13:45:22  MrPingu, coincidence
Jun 08 13:45:30  interesting
Jun 08 13:45:32  I never made *manager to play nice with USB routing
Jun 08 13:45:37  DocScrutinizer05: if I disable the n900 connection, I can use IRC. 
Jun 08 13:45:40  you know, it's absolutely impossible, but if You experienced it, it's worth investigation
Jun 08 13:45:44  DocScrutinizer05: like I am doing now.
Jun 08 13:45:46  when I replaced my original back, welcome screen was normal
Jun 08 13:45:59  MrPingu, you, most liukely, aren't willing to try replacing again
Jun 08 13:46:05  but I would be very itnereste din results
Jun 08 13:46:19  as I'm 10101038478 % sure, that upper part of N900 doesn't have anything to do with images
Jun 08 13:46:37  so, if You would still get such results, it would mean thatm msome poart block eMMC
Jun 08 13:46:41  but how?
Jun 08 13:47:04  BTw, where are these pictures? I want to see fake digitizer too
Jun 08 13:47:13  BTw, MrPingu, what is Your price limit for original digitizer?
Jun 08 13:47:21  and, what about it's condition? It must be 100% perfect?
Jun 08 13:48:05  I got access to used N900 digitizers dissasembled from faulty units
Jun 08 13:48:09  for very good prices
Jun 08 13:48:13  although, conditions vary
Jun 08 13:48:29  most of them is quite usable, after applying protector foil You don't see any scratches, not matter what
Jun 08 13:48:31  no*
Jun 08 13:49:52  estel, n900 pimp
Jun 08 13:50:17  :P
Jun 08 13:50:18  Meh I can't find pictures, give me another sec
Jun 08 13:50:57  it is worth paying for real parts.
Jun 08 13:51:09  the chinky knockoffs are shit.
Jun 08 13:51:19  Btw how can my device function normal if opt isn't mounted?
Jun 08 13:51:20  DocScrutinizer05:  http://paste.kde.org/495434/ ifconfig -a output
Jun 08 13:51:33  After welcome screen everything worked fine ;)
Jun 08 13:51:42  Linux is supposedly 'open', but here its operation is as opaque as it can be.
Jun 08 13:52:21  actually running neo-ssh involved shutting down network-manager first
Jun 08 13:52:22  NM config done by distro-install-tools never usually is prepared to handle more than the usual NICs
Jun 08 13:52:22  and definitely not any downlink
Jun 08 13:52:22  NM will always try to setup N900 as another NIC
Jun 08 13:52:22  and that's not what you want
Jun 08 13:52:22  unless you want to share N900 internet to PC
Jun 08 13:52:22  MrPingu: there's definitely no storage in digitizer :-D
Jun 08 13:52:22  I however could see how system-init does funny things when input device throws error
Jun 08 13:52:23  MrPingu: without /opt no normal operation
Jun 08 13:52:23  that's exactly what you observed
Jun 08 13:52:23  I guess
Jun 08 13:53:23  fasta_: this pastie looks like route to me
Jun 08 13:53:48  No I only observed faulty welcome screen, after that it was fine ;)
Jun 08 13:54:14  DocScrutinizer05: http://paste.kde.org/495440/ sorry about that
Jun 08 13:54:17  I am still as surprised as you guys :P
Jun 08 13:54:17  fasta_: and btw is same URL you already posted
Jun 08 13:56:11  fasta_: your USB gateway is 192.168.3.14 - and has P-t-P?? :-o
Jun 08 13:56:38  fasta_: NM tries to configure that as DSL modem or whatever
Jun 08 13:56:50  or USB UMTS stick
Jun 08 13:57:44  fasta_: toldya NM won't play with USB networking as you want to establish it
Jun 08 13:59:30  http://www.imgur.com/a/Ie33c/all
Jun 08 13:59:43  sorry you need to rotate the images yourself...
Jun 08 14:00:44  1 + 3 : serial numbers
Jun 08 14:00:51  2: magnet
Jun 08 14:01:06  4 Notification Led lens
Jun 08 14:01:41  what's with the lens?
Jun 08 14:02:15  My ordered cover didn't have one ;)
Jun 08 14:02:20  LOL
Jun 08 14:02:42  Tried to attach it to the fake, but no go...
Jun 08 14:02:57  who wants to compile a maemo vdersion of roxterm?
Jun 08 14:02:58  DocScrutinizer05: why do all Linux distributions ship such utter crap then?
Jun 08 14:03:07  I will email you a donut.
Jun 08 14:03:13  DocScrutinizer05: and how should I configure it? Just in /etc/network/interfaces?
Jun 08 14:03:22  fasta_: welcome to FOSS.
Jun 08 14:03:24  DocScrutinizer05: do you also use Linux?
Jun 08 14:03:29  Now I am still using that fscked screen I once showed you ;)
Jun 08 14:03:31  surew
Jun 08 14:03:37  vi__: not all FOSS is crap.
Jun 08 14:04:01  fasta_: it's utter crap only if you want to do unusual things ;-)
Jun 08 14:04:15  Also, configuring network interfaces isn't something which is difficult for a programmer to get right.
Jun 08 14:04:23  fasta_: and I guess you just have to shutdown NM
Jun 08 14:04:32  and do all the network config manually
Jun 08 14:04:38  I.e., if not someone else already ruined it.
Jun 08 14:04:45  How does OpenBSD do it?
Jun 08 14:04:51  NFC
Jun 08 14:04:58  DocScrutinizer05: ?
Jun 08 14:05:05  ~nfc
Jun 08 14:05:06  well, nfc is No Fucking Clue, or near field communications
Jun 08 14:06:06  fasta_: toldya I had to shutdown *manager prior to running http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/unsorted/neo-ssh
Jun 08 14:06:23  and that's it
Jun 08 14:06:30  maybe also stop firewall
Jun 08 14:07:06  DocScrutinizer05: yes, but I would like to have a setup where I just plug it in and udev automatically runs for example your script.
Jun 08 14:07:22  that doesn't work
Jun 08 14:07:28  Nm forbids
Jun 08 14:07:37  Huh
Jun 08 14:07:54  I mean: I can uninstall network-manager.
Jun 08 14:07:59  HaleBopp:~ # ifup eth0
Jun 08 14:08:01  Network interface is managed by the NetworkManager -> skipping
Jun 08 14:08:17  Estel_, you have some digitizers? I guess I want to buy it for about 30-40 EUR ;)
Jun 08 14:08:17  So, how can it forbid it then if it is not installed?
Jun 08 14:09:19  fasta_: nah, you got me wrong. Sure uninstalling NM is a feasible way
Jun 08 14:09:54  as this will cahnge the response to ifup as quoted above
Jun 08 14:10:51  as long as your system is configured for NM, you can't administrate NICs manually
Jun 08 14:11:14  or at least I don't know how you do
Jun 08 14:12:23  the netto result of all this: I unistalled NM on my old laptop, settting up my network the classical way
Jun 08 14:13:22  as in the end NM was even interfering with flashing
Jun 08 14:14:16  since once long ago I dared to configure USB as a regular NIC, in my suse yast
Jun 08 14:15:00  in an futile effort to make it work with NM
Jun 08 14:16:01  bottom line: NM only knows how to handle uplinks to internet
Jun 08 14:18:31  MrPingu: http://www.saremi-mobilfunk.de/product_info.php/info/p4369_Original-Nokia-N900-A-Cover-Touchscreen.html
Jun 08 14:27:02  MrPingu: I gather your in .nl, so I guess you could buy at some european shop like saremi
Jun 08 14:28:01  you're*
Jun 08 14:40:40  Yeh Thanks, yep I am from NL ;)
Jun 08 14:52:39  DocScrutinizer05: I got it to work via some instructions from some Russian website.
Jun 08 14:52:53  I do however now get: NO_PUBKEY 6713C33F3F027BB1 during apt-get update.
Jun 08 14:53:46  fasta_: that seems to be unrelated
Jun 08 14:54:00  DocScrutinizer05: yes, it's completely unrelated. 
Jun 08 14:54:30  DocScrutinizer05: perhaps I should have used XML tags: .
Jun 08 14:54:40  fasta_: would you mind to share telegram style of what you did to get it working?
Jun 08 14:55:00  http://max.vseborice.net/n900-usb-networking
Jun 08 14:55:08  It's basically that. 
Jun 08 14:55:11  (no Russian knowledge here)
Jun 08 14:55:13  I nuked network manager.
Jun 08 14:55:19  I also don't speak Russian.
Jun 08 14:55:34  yeah, nuking NM is the key
Jun 08 14:55:43  the rest is 'easy'
Jun 08 14:55:48  DocScrutinizer05: well, another key is the udev configuration.
Jun 08 14:55:58  DocScrutinizer05: all the planets have to be aligned.
Jun 08 14:56:03  sure, that's for advanced fun
Jun 08 14:56:27  DocScrutinizer05: I was surprised that starting xchat, via the ssh shell started it on the device, and not on my desktop.
Jun 08 14:56:39  I did ssh -X
Jun 08 14:56:51  That's not supposed to happen, right?
Jun 08 14:57:04  I think -X doesn't work with hildon
Jun 08 14:57:15  hildon?
Jun 08 14:57:21  there are some mini howtos about that
Jun 08 14:57:28  Also how can I check via the command line which version I am running?
Jun 08 14:57:35  E.g. community version X?
Jun 08 14:57:45  hildon -> basically maemo X
Jun 08 14:58:55  check out maemo scratchbox & xephyr
Jun 08 14:59:10  i used to run Eclipse on my N900
Jun 08 14:59:16  via ssh -X
Jun 08 14:59:31  it wasn't the easiest thing to use, but it was pretty cool :P
Jun 08 14:59:40  definately works
Jun 08 14:59:41  DocScrutinizer05: is that something I want on my phone or on my desktop?
Jun 08 14:59:47  yeah, but genuine maemo hildon apps won't forward via -X afaik
Jun 08 14:59:59  ah
Jun 08 15:00:08  maemo xchat, not desktop xchat?
Jun 08 15:00:13  nm then, dunno ;P
Jun 08 15:00:19  I am currently running 20.2010.36-2maemon16.8
Jun 08 15:00:39  That's not the newest, I think?
Jun 08 15:00:48  fasta_: SB&xephyr emulate maemo desktop on PC
Jun 08 15:01:17  AIUI xephyr somehow manages to "remote link" to hildon desktop
Jun 08 15:01:20  DocScrutinizer05: so they don't even require a phone?
Jun 08 15:01:37  exactly, if you run maemo in SB quemu
Jun 08 15:02:02  but afaik you could also connect xephyr to real device
Jun 08 15:02:49  I think all genuine maemo apps rely on N900 screen dimensions etc
Jun 08 15:02:58  ~xephyr
Jun 08 15:03:43  A very few apps I tried when I tested it starting them with display set to my PC worked at other than n900 screen dimensions
Jun 08 15:03:46  http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=29386
Jun 08 15:04:04  Most of them minimally ported apps with no hildonising
Jun 08 15:04:20  indeed
Jun 08 15:04:28  hildonizing defeats -X
Jun 08 15:04:57  unless you use xephyr (or other compatibly configured dedicated Xserver)
Jun 08 15:05:21  that's why usually you use vnc for that
Jun 08 15:05:31  ...I heard
Jun 08 15:06:30  http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation
Jun 08 15:07:42  http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation#What_is_not_included_in_the_Maemo_SDK.3F -> xwphyr
Jun 08 15:07:50  xephyr even
Jun 08 15:09:10  How can I add the public key to get rid of the problem above?
Jun 08 15:10:12  I think it's a commonly encountered problem that hmmm ... fixes itself the day after?
Jun 08 15:11:07  no idea actually, except I've seen this line of complaint so many times
Jun 08 15:12:01  maybe somebody else here actually encountered the problem and knows what it needs to get it fixed
Jun 08 15:12:31  afaik it's a problem on the 'far end'
Jun 08 15:14:01  I think I know how to solve it.
Jun 08 15:14:24  I don't know in principle whether I am now trusting someone I shouldn't, though.
Jun 08 15:14:26  ignore? :-D
Jun 08 15:14:49  There seems to be a whole forest of public keys floating around for Maemo related stuff.
Jun 08 15:15:02  :nod:
Jun 08 15:15:20  maemo.org community repositories (diablo) 
Jun 08 15:15:31  YAY
Jun 08 15:15:32  Does that diablo thing mean anything to you?
Jun 08 15:15:39  what are you doing with diablo?
Jun 08 15:15:47  I don't know. 
Jun 08 15:15:53  it's maemo4, for N8xx
Jun 08 15:15:53  If it's old, I can likely disable it.
Jun 08 15:16:01  Ok, so then I will want to remove that.
Jun 08 15:16:08  yep!
Jun 08 15:17:13  ~repositories
Jun 08 15:17:14  repositories are frequently old.
Jun 08 15:17:17  DocScrutinizer05: I only have these:  http://paste.kde.org/495524
Jun 08 15:17:18  meh
Jun 08 15:17:44  DocScrutinizer05: is there anything old about those?
Jun 08 15:18:28  you probably don't want community-testing
Jun 08 15:18:40  the rest looks sane to me
Jun 08 15:19:28  though usually you enable extras-devel only temporarily to install a particular pkg
Jun 08 15:20:00  and never do apt-get upgrade!
Jun 08 15:20:02  DocScrutinizer05:  W: Ignoring Provides line with DepCompareOp for package binutils <- what's that?
Jun 08 15:20:12  nfc
Jun 08 15:21:08  I gather it's a W arning
Jun 08 15:21:27  never seen this when disabling a repo in HAM
Jun 08 15:22:28  generally you should manage your repos in HAM, not in xterm via apt-foo et al
Jun 08 15:22:32  Ok, I disabled extras-devel and now it's now there anymore.
Jun 08 15:22:44  Is apt-get upgrade safe now?
Jun 08 15:22:50  no way
Jun 08 15:23:02  apt-get upgrade never is safe on maemo
Jun 08 15:23:07  What is safe?
Jun 08 15:23:24  HAM
Jun 08 15:23:55  it's friggin slow, but the only certified and supported way
Jun 08 15:23:59  Ok, and why can't I install a new version of maemo just via apt-get?
Jun 08 15:24:19  because maemo packaging is fubar
Jun 08 15:24:49  So, I basically have to follow those instructions including backing up, etc.?
Jun 08 15:24:56  yes
Jun 08 15:25:18  Is it possible to use the infrared of the device to control an analog TV?
Jun 08 15:25:26  yes
Jun 08 15:25:30  I saw some application for that.
Jun 08 15:25:36  That's just so cool.
Jun 08 15:25:38  though range is very limited
Jun 08 15:25:48  some 2 m maybe
Jun 08 15:26:07  depends on TV
Jun 08 15:27:00  It would be nice if I could just get a system image from some very experienced user, such that I could see how they experience the n900.
Jun 08 15:27:18  I had it working with IRReco, but not with the Qt spawn
Jun 08 15:27:18  With Linux it's a bit the same; if you don't configure it well, it's useless.
Jun 08 15:27:53  :nod:
Jun 08 15:27:58  i got irreco to... kind of work. once, on one TV
Jun 08 15:28:06  but all it could do was volume and power
Jun 08 15:28:12  couldn't get the rest
Jun 08 15:28:12  alas I'm not going to share a complete diskimage :-D
Jun 08 15:28:40  DocScrutinizer05: because of all your contacts, private stuff?
Jun 08 15:28:45  yep
Jun 08 15:28:59  Isn't it easy to delete that information somehow automatically?
Jun 08 15:29:13  Then you could get a whole 'sharing of diskimages' community.
Jun 08 15:29:17  Just a thought. 
Jun 08 15:30:05  It tells me that I can install the Maemo 5 Community SSU Package. Will that wipe everything if I say 'sure, install that'.
Jun 08 15:30:07  ?
Jun 08 15:30:08  should be feasible
Jun 08 15:30:37  dang, you still have a repo for CSSU configured
Jun 08 15:30:52  I shouldn't do that?
Jun 08 15:30:57  it's guaranteed to break if you just install it, i'd guess
Jun 08 15:31:04  ~cssu
Jun 08 15:31:05  cssu is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU
Jun 08 15:31:15  I feel just so stupid in this channel, while I have no problems with any other Linux.
Jun 08 15:31:27  np, that's usual
Jun 08 15:31:34  and will go away soon
Jun 08 15:32:07  maybe this will give you some ideas, though it's mainly advances stuff:
Jun 08 15:32:10  ~jrtools
Jun 08 15:32:11  jrtools is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
Jun 08 15:36:18  Does the backup remember what I had installed via HAM?
Jun 08 15:44:08  http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU says 'install backupmenu', but what does it mean by that? I.e. does it want me to do apt-get install (I am sure that would work), or is there some other assumption here?
Jun 08 15:48:14  Hello! Nokia warranty service has received my N900 (with defective touchscreen) and now they say they have disposed it, but they cannot repair it and they also cannot replace it by another N900, but they offer an E7 or an N8. This does not seem to be acceptable for me? Any recommendations how to react? I'd either like an N900 or something better or equivalent.
Jun 08 15:48:52  There are no equivalents.
Jun 08 15:49:05  N9 is in some ways the closest.
Jun 08 15:49:13  Could I ask for an N950?
Jun 08 15:49:28  Work out which you can sell for more on ebay, and purchase a replacement second-hand n900 if you want to go that route.
Jun 08 15:49:41  YOu could ask, but they are not for sale, so I'd be astonished if you got one
Jun 08 15:52:06  fasta_: (Does the backup remember) yes;  'install backupmenu' go to HAM and search for backupmenu
Jun 08 15:52:26  DocScrutinizer05: the problem with HAM is that I need to know the category in advance, no?
Jun 08 15:52:32  apt-get install may work too
Jun 08 15:52:44  no, there's a cat 'all'
Jun 08 15:52:46  DocScrutinizer05: i.e. algorithm: try every category and in every category search for backupmenu.
Jun 08 15:52:52  DocScrutinizer05: oh, great. How?
Jun 08 15:53:02  upper left IIRC
Jun 08 15:53:04  (surely, I would never try all of them in this case)
Jun 08 15:53:20  DocScrutinizer05: got it. Thanks
Jun 08 15:53:24  yw
Jun 08 15:53:55  If so many people want a n950, why don't they just sell them?
Jun 08 15:54:08  Good question.
Jun 08 15:54:08  good question
Jun 08 15:54:11  They are a business, right?
Jun 08 15:54:12  :-P
Jun 08 15:54:37  no, they are elopized
Jun 08 15:54:59  Can't the stock holders fire him?
Jun 08 15:55:07  dunno
Jun 08 15:55:10  er shareholders
Jun 08 15:55:19  seems they are happy with his nonsense
Jun 08 15:55:34  I got to vote for some of my shares. 
Jun 08 15:55:44  Except I got the memo a month after the vote.
Jun 08 15:55:53  Yeah... sure, they could vote.
Jun 08 15:56:28  you got NOK shares? condolences
Jun 08 15:56:34  No
Jun 08 15:56:56  I was thinking of going short NOK, though.
Jun 08 15:57:11  you meant shareholders, and I meant board
Jun 08 15:57:17  That was right after the announcement of their craptastic move.
Jun 08 15:57:33  DocScrutinizer05: yes, I corrected myself already.
Jun 08 15:57:37  MrPingu, yea, I have access to genuine ones
Jun 08 15:57:43  the shareholders probably can't do anything
Jun 08 15:57:44  DocScrutinizer05: see the 'er shareholders' part.
Jun 08 15:57:47  BTw, LOL at lack of hole for notification led
Jun 08 15:58:09  the board is happy with their new master
Jun 08 15:58:11  but, MrPingu, as I've said, digitizers I got access to are used ones
Jun 08 15:58:39  what about condition required by You? I'll search for ones that comply with your needs, and inform you about price
Jun 08 15:58:59  yeah, I seen that part, and corrected myself as well
Jun 08 15:59:19  Why does the installation of backupmenu give this huge warning?
Jun 08 15:59:29  ignore it
Jun 08 15:59:36  whatever it is
Jun 08 15:59:36  All it needs to do is read some information; how dangerous can it possibly be?
Jun 08 15:59:48  (well, and write it to some file)
Jun 08 15:59:51  restoring *can* be dangerous
Jun 08 16:00:12  and it has some nifty battery charging that needs i2ctools
Jun 08 16:00:48  the warning afaik is about i2ctools as I didn't feel like removing this warning from the original package
Jun 08 16:00:55  i2ctools are dangerous
Jun 08 16:01:18  Dangerous like rm -rf /* is dangerous?
Jun 08 16:01:34  I mean: either the software works, or it doesn't.
Jun 08 16:01:35  don't mess with i2ctools unless you know what you're doing (backupmenu knows ;-D)
Jun 08 16:01:48  Ok
Jun 08 16:02:50  (dangerous like in "oops, now I erased this calibration data and whole firmware of the ALS sensor)
Jun 08 16:04:00  BM knows what to do with I2Ctools, so forget the warning, and forget there's a thing called i2cset
Jun 08 16:05:23  btw this warning is one of the reasons when apt-get install might fail
Jun 08 16:05:57  there are some pkgs like that which you better install via HAM rather than apt-get
Jun 08 16:07:16  pkgs are tested for installation via HAM, it's not guaranteed they all install nicely via any other installer
Jun 08 16:08:36  (and in fact it's hard to catch an apt-get install from inside the pkg, and do only compatible things in that case)
Jun 08 16:09:59  (otherwise we would've changed the warning requester popup to a "echo warning >2" when pkg gets installed via plain apt-get)
Jun 08 17:09:09  freemangordon you there? what's the libcurl3 version i need installed?
Jun 08 17:17:34  Is it possible to flash Maemo or Meego onto a Nokia E7?
Jun 08 17:22:50  Atarii: How am I sopposed to know which version of libcurl3 YOU have installed on YOUR device ?!?
Jun 08 17:22:56  *supposed
Jun 08 17:23:04  I'm not asking that
Jun 08 17:23:09  damn, check it
Jun 08 17:23:26  Atarii: sorry, misread your question
Jun 08 17:23:26  I'm asking the version YOU said should fix the MfE issue
Jun 08 17:23:29  ah :)
Jun 08 17:23:44  kaawee: no
Jun 08 17:24:15  Atarii: 7.25.0-1maemo7
Jun 08 17:24:31  damn ok thanks
Jun 08 17:24:37  :-D
Jun 08 17:25:03  I did an update, libcurl3 was listed, but still on 7.18.2-8maemo6
Jun 08 17:25:06  strange thigns afoot
Jun 08 17:25:13  things*
Jun 08 17:47:30  Atarii: do apt-get install libcurl3
Jun 08 17:48:32  I started cutetube, but how do I exit it?
Jun 08 17:49:38  nm
Jun 08 17:50:11  It seems impossible to run it in the background, unfortunately.
Jun 08 17:52:38  Also, after I have upgraded CCSU, I just need to run the restore from the boot menu?
Jun 08 17:54:21  DocScrutinizer05: when I click on 'stable', it justs says 'operation failed' in HAM.
Jun 08 17:55:02  DocScrutinizer05: it also seems that all of my repositories have been deleted?!
Jun 08 17:55:18  fasta_: please read instructions on 
Jun 08 17:55:20  ~cssu
Jun 08 17:55:22  hmm... cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU
Jun 08 17:55:37  apt-get can be used to figure out why it's failing.  I've used apt-get for installing backupmenu and other things.  You just have to keep an eye on the screen at times, as some installers like that pop up a "click ok" message to acknowledge you read the warning.
Jun 08 17:56:09  Woody14619: yep, that's just one issue
Jun 08 17:56:33  I actually use apt-get for about 90% of my installs, so I can see wtf it's doing. :)  I have enough "magic" in my life as it is without adding to it.
Jun 08 17:56:54  depending on environment, the requester also might fail to pop up at all and thus the install will abort
Jun 08 17:57:21  .oO(That, and I screw around with things a lot, so my N900 isn't exactly "typical" or "stock", which most packages expect)
Jun 08 17:57:46  fasta_: make sure you don't run any other installers or whatever in parallel to CSSU install
Jun 08 17:57:58  The problem in this case, is that I didn't instruct the machine to delete repositories.
Jun 08 17:58:03  follow the instructions, and don't do other things in parallel
Jun 08 17:58:05  Actually, the CSSU version has fixed that, so the dep_pkg tools emmit a warning and move on. :)
Jun 08 17:58:32  I followed the instructions on the website.
Jun 08 17:58:48  (and I read the FAQ)
Jun 08 17:58:55  fasta_: CSSU will configure repositories, unless you're interferring by watching what's going on there and thus blocking stuff
Jun 08 17:59:31  to me it sounds like you didn't even finish the installation
Jun 08 18:00:06  DocScrutinizer05: I didn't even start it.
Jun 08 18:00:20  umm???
Jun 08 18:00:32  DocScrutinizer05: I just pressed the stable button, then it said it had to enable all kinds of repositories. 
Jun 08 18:00:43  DocScrutinizer05: so, after than I exited HAM.
Jun 08 18:00:50  DocScrutinizer05: perhaps I shouldn't have done that.
Jun 08 18:01:05  DocScrutinizer05: but I don't see why that should cause a problem.
Jun 08 18:01:30  DocScrutinizer05: I also set 'ignore the CSSU update'.
Jun 08 18:01:44  you should do *exactly* what's written on ~cssu
Jun 08 18:01:46  DocScrutinizer05: but I was assuming that I could get it back if I manually started it.
Jun 08 18:01:58  DocScrutinizer05: ok, how can I 'unignore' that now?
Jun 08 18:02:04  LOL
Jun 08 18:02:10  NFc
Jun 08 18:02:19  (and where does HAM store its repositories?) 
Jun 08 18:02:37  why do you wanna know that?
Jun 08 18:02:40  The instructions didn't mention the scenario I was in. 
Jun 08 18:02:52  DocScrutinizer05: because I do see the repositories listed in /etc/apt/...
Jun 08 18:03:00  DocScrutinizer05: but they don't come up in HAM.
Jun 08 18:03:18  that's why you're not supposed to edit those in /etc/apt
Jun 08 18:03:26  you always edit repos in HAM
Jun 08 18:04:22  Ok, so now I got a message again that there is an update.
Jun 08 18:05:02  how about installing it then? like suggested on ~cssu, in breathtaking verbosity
Jun 08 18:06:18  honestly, the instructions on http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU couldn't be any more detailed
Jun 08 18:06:56  so we thought it's implicitly clear you don't need additional steps to mess with repos on your own, in xterm, or anything
Jun 08 18:07:01  DocScrutinizer05: it's running now.
Jun 08 18:07:44  DocScrutinizer05: I prefer just running a command instead of following instructions and pushing buttons.
Jun 08 18:08:04  sorry, I can't help then
Jun 08 18:08:07  E.g. wget http://maemo.org/magiccommandsequence && ./magiccommandsequence
Jun 08 18:08:20  Well, with an additional chmod +x
Jun 08 18:08:27  And perhaps gainroot.
Jun 08 18:08:31  Anyway, you get the idea.
Jun 08 18:08:37  not really
Jun 08 18:08:43  Then there is also no discussion about 'user error'.
Jun 08 18:09:24  It's a computer; if I need to 'follow steps', it means that those are steps which could also have been performed by a program.
Jun 08 18:09:38  hell, quite a number of people invested weeks of work each, to make user experience on installing CSSU a warm breeze
Jun 08 18:10:05  I am not saying it's bad. 
Jun 08 18:10:11  we're not going to write up a hacker's_howto_CSSU for your pleasure
Jun 08 18:10:32  I am not saying you should.
Jun 08 18:10:44  after all there's a reason CSSU install works the way it does
Jun 08 18:10:55  Because it needs to use HAM?
Jun 08 18:11:00  And HAM is not programmable?
Jun 08 18:11:07  as it's not exactly trivial to switch repos from an installation
Jun 08 18:11:18  yes
Jun 08 18:11:34  Well, those are valid reasons.
Jun 08 18:11:47  Next question would be why HAM could not be extended ;)
Jun 08 18:12:08  it WILL be extended, IN CSSU ;-P
Jun 08 18:12:56  Ok, I think it worked :)
Jun 08 18:13:08  how to update apt: apt-get purge apt-get; apt-get install apt-get
Jun 08 18:13:10  XP
Jun 08 18:13:30  hope you got the pun
Jun 08 18:13:35  Yes
Jun 08 18:13:42  I am not _that_ ignorant.
Jun 08 18:14:01  Although, I don't see the correspondence. 
Jun 08 18:14:06  So, perhaps I am stupid.
Jun 08 18:14:11  HAM is
Jun 08 18:14:50  It appears faster, or is the just wishing for it to be faster?
Jun 08 18:14:56  the whole CSSU upgrade is like a huge apt-get update
Jun 08 18:14:56  In particular scrolling.
Jun 08 18:15:20  Isn't it more like installing a new distro?
Jun 08 18:15:34  not exactly
Jun 08 18:15:46  more like upgrading a whole distro
Jun 08 18:16:00  dist-upgrade, then :)
Jun 08 18:16:12  which will break stuff
Jun 08 18:16:36  due to maemo packaging not compatible with dist-upgrade
Jun 08 18:16:53  that's why you need HAM
Jun 08 18:17:22  and HAM is not scriptable
Jun 08 18:17:48  believe me there are good reasons why CSSU install works this and no other way
Jun 08 18:17:56  Well, everything is scriptable if you put some effort in it.
Jun 08 18:18:15  I.e., if you would hack the binary and add your own interfaces.
Jun 08 18:18:23  I mean, it's the same thing hackers do.
Jun 08 18:18:43  It's not really 'proper engineering', though.
Jun 08 18:18:44  sorry, afk
Jun 08 19:10:15  hi
Jun 08 19:42:45  What's the resolution of the front camera? 
Jun 08 19:43:00  It seems extremely bad; much worse than even a laptop camera.
Jun 08 19:43:17  Or does it needs some configuration to look somewhat decent?
Jun 08 19:47:36  640x480
Jun 08 19:59:12  fasta_: Yes, it's just really horrible and light-unsensitive.
Jun 08 20:00:01  I think it's useless, unless you for some reason want to check yourself using the Mirror app in broad daylight or something.
Jun 08 20:00:05  Raimu: the normal camera also isn't that good, right?
Jun 08 20:00:33  Well, I think the back camera is pretty nice.
Jun 08 20:00:38  Is there some way I can test the front camera without any other factors (like Internet speed)?
Jun 08 20:00:53  The photos also don't appear to be sharp.
Jun 08 20:01:00  It's jpeg compressed already.
Jun 08 20:01:08  How can I set jpeg compression to 0?
Jun 08 20:01:13  I.e. quality 100.
Jun 08 20:01:43  There're threads about it talk.maemo.org, but Fcamera-based applications can just save shots into raw format.
Jun 08 20:02:00  fasta_ hit tmo.  there was a topic on there about using the front camera with gstreamer commands directly, disabling jpg as inline.
Jun 08 20:02:26  Woody14619: and is there a noticable difference?
Jun 08 20:02:27  It's still ugly, and  I believe it is vga (640x480), but reasonable for skype and other such apps.
Jun 08 20:02:47  Woody14619: well, I just used it over skype and there were even blocks visible.
Jun 08 20:02:51  I noted the cpu use is much lower than mirror, but image quality wise? not a lot...
Jun 08 20:02:54  Woody14619: I mean like 3 by 4 cm blocks.
Jun 08 20:03:11  oh.. well. better than that. :)
Jun 08 20:03:13  Woody14619: I also noticed there was a delay of about 3 minutes in the actual video.
Jun 08 20:03:29  That sounds more like a bandwidth issue...
Jun 08 20:03:30  Woody14619: so, it seems like the device couldn't keep up or something like that.
Jun 08 20:03:46  Woody14619: which is why I would like to test the front camera without Internet interference.
Jun 08 20:04:13  I think I only have like 100KB/s upload per second, so that's most like the explanation.
Jun 08 20:04:21  minus the per second.
Jun 08 20:04:25  yup... just hit tmo and power search for gstreamer and the dev of the front camera...
Jun 08 20:04:25  likely
Jun 08 20:06:26  K, am off to do real work. :)
Jun 08 20:17:49  fasta_: get mirror
Jun 08 20:20:12  fasta_: http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bproperty%5D=name&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bvalue%5D=mirror&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bproperty%5D=title&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bvalue%5D=same
Jun 08 20:26:03  I doubt that's anywhere near 640x480.
Jun 08 20:26:24  More like 320x240 or something like that.
Jun 08 20:26:34  It's just a really shitty 640x480 afaik.
Jun 08 20:27:23  It must come from the part stack then which first dropped off a cliff, then in the rain, through the mud, sent in space and then was packaged up by angry employees.
Jun 08 20:27:41  I was under the impression that's where the SoC came as well.
Jun 08 20:28:18  Still, that FM feature is kind of cool.
Jun 08 20:28:38  Sure. A lot of things're very cool about the n900.
Jun 08 20:29:12  I also tested out Skype video chat.
Jun 08 20:29:25  While it doesn't look as cool as on an iPhone, it does work.
Jun 08 20:30:01  The voice signal is the most important anyway.
Jun 08 20:30:32  What's 'appdownloader' exactly?
Jun 08 20:30:44  Is it just a community frontend for HAM?
Jun 08 20:30:54  Kind of like software center is in Ubuntu?
Jun 08 20:31:04  I actually have no clue.
Jun 08 20:31:31  Mind you, frontend is exactly what HAM already is.
Jun 08 20:32:24  I personally use the Fast Application Manager for HAM replacement, but a lot of dissenting voices on that one.
Jun 08 20:32:35  Apparently, it can mess things up in select situations.
Jun 08 20:37:49  Raimu: HAM is not quite just a frontend. i am told that it's update feature works substantially differently from apt-get upgrade and that the latter must not be done
Jun 08 20:37:52  annoyingly
Jun 08 20:39:28  BCMM: I stand corrected!
Jun 08 20:40:38  this is a source of great annoyance to me. i have machines running three different distributions where apt-get install works properly, and i have to remember not to to apt-get upgrade on one of them
Jun 08 20:49:14  Why does the n900 think that I want to do a firmware upgrade when it is connected via usb?
Jun 08 20:49:44  Can't it just try to read from it and if nothing comes that it expects assume it doesn't want to flash anything?
Jun 08 20:50:26  I don't understand the question. Are you hooked up to a PC with the USB cable and the PC's running what?
Jun 08 20:54:19  Raimu: yes, Linux.
Jun 08 20:54:24  Raimu: it works perfectly. 
Jun 08 20:54:32  (Can't it just try to read from it and if nothing comes that it expects assume it doesn't want to flash anything?) that's precisely what ROMBOOT and NOLO do
Jun 08 20:55:00  DocScrutinizer05: so, I don't need to disconnect it every time?
Jun 08 20:55:11  every which time?
Jun 08 20:55:21  DocScrutinizer05: every time I reboot the n900.
Jun 08 20:55:26  nah
Jun 08 20:55:43  I also figured out how to shoot in .dng format.
Jun 08 20:55:47  Likely that's raw. 
Jun 08 20:55:58  Then pictures seem to look good.
Jun 08 20:56:20  I don't know how to do the same for the camera, though.
Jun 08 20:56:23  I.e. video.
Jun 08 20:56:39  raw video? have fun with that ;-P
Jun 08 20:56:49  So how'd you make 'em .dng?
Jun 08 20:57:07  Raimu: fcamera did that.
Jun 08 20:57:16  Ah, yes.
Jun 08 20:57:19  Is there any way to show these on the n900 too?
Jun 08 20:57:32  hehe
Jun 08 20:57:54  maybe there's a dng-viewer app?
Jun 08 20:57:56  I think there's some sorta "RAW viewer" in extras somewhere.
Jun 08 20:58:15  Haven't tested.
Jun 08 21:00:08 * DocScrutinizer05 tinks about it, but doesn't recall any raw video format even
Jun 08 21:00:21  I don't really see the problem with the 10 seconds save time to sdcard.
Jun 08 21:00:22  except maybe VHS ;-P
Jun 08 21:00:44  I mean: it's in internal memory already when the picture is taken.
Jun 08 21:00:53  So, it can be displayed fast.
Jun 08 21:01:18  That there is some background process writing it to non-volatile memory is irrelevant.
Jun 08 21:01:37  eh?
Jun 08 21:01:55  That was someone's explanation for not having RAW by default.
Jun 08 21:02:06  There is 32 GB of space.
Jun 08 21:02:08  nonsense
Jun 08 21:03:13  the only rationale for not having RAW is it's quite unusual and not appropriate for the camera quality
Jun 08 21:05:32  On the dng one I can count the pixels on the photographed screen. 
Jun 08 21:06:20  So, is there any way to get relatively uncompressed video output?
Jun 08 21:07:02  I think there was a bunch of hacks on some files for that.
Jun 08 21:07:07  Check out tmo, I guess.
Jun 08 21:07:09  nope, bandwidth linitations I guess
Jun 08 21:07:26  But officially, no.
Jun 08 21:09:52  for 640*480 24bpp 25fps I get a bandwidth of ~23MB/s
Jun 08 21:10:38  hard to dump that *anywhere* on N900
Jun 08 21:10:53  On the n900, the camera isn't really as many pixels as you think it is.
Jun 08 21:11:05  The lens diameter means that it's about 2-2.5MP
Jun 08 21:11:21  SpeedEvil: 640*480, video
Jun 08 21:11:35  -> fasta_
Jun 08 21:12:20  not even talking about HD
Jun 08 21:12:22  DocScrutinizer05: and how fast can it write to sd?
Jun 08 21:12:34  12MB if you're lucky
Jun 08 21:12:35  DocScrutinizer05: or: how fast is the USB connection?
Jun 08 21:12:37  fasta_: 12.?Mb/s
Jun 08 21:12:54  Mb or MB?
Jun 08 21:12:58  bytes
Jun 08 21:13:06  USB the jury is still out
Jun 08 21:13:09  on that
Jun 08 21:13:16  you can actually write faster than this if you write to SD and EMMC at the same time
Jun 08 21:13:30  I got about 22M aggregate read
Jun 08 21:13:33  Which USB is it?
Jun 08 21:13:35  2.0?
Jun 08 21:13:37  I don't think I tried aggregate write
Jun 08 21:13:40  yes, 2
Jun 08 21:13:48  That's 480Mbits/s
Jun 08 21:13:49  well, depends
Jun 08 21:13:56  Max, at least.
Jun 08 21:14:27  and I'd bet N900 can't sustain 480Mb/s on USB highspeed
Jun 08 21:14:47  I think if you would write to both usb and sdcard at the same time and to some wireless uplink, you should be able to sustain it.
Jun 08 21:15:02  Or at least for a minute or so.
Jun 08 21:15:17  Most videos on a phone are going to be action shots anyway.
Jun 08 21:15:28  what works for 5s will work for hours (or until storage full)
Jun 08 21:16:05  USB-gadget camera would be awesome
Jun 08 21:16:09  - as an aside
Jun 08 21:16:09  DocScrutinizer05: no, because it could be that internal memory is full after one minut.
Jun 08 21:16:11  but N900 is really missing the grunt to do that
Jun 08 21:16:25  minute*
Jun 08 21:16:51  internal memory like what? like those sparse 256MB we got, that are already more than used up after boot?
Jun 08 21:18:18  DocScrutinizer05: yes, those. 
Jun 08 21:18:47  DocScrutinizer05: it could serialize those first to the sd card.
Jun 08 21:19:01  But that would mean it takes 15 seconds to start creating a video
Jun 08 21:20:21  Is dng a particular type of RAW?
Jun 08 21:20:28  hmm, yep, I estimate an app could actually allocate ~100MB locked RAM
Jun 08 21:20:49  equals 4 seconds of vga raw video
Jun 08 21:21:05  So, then all you need is some USB stick ducktaped to your phone.
Jun 08 21:21:15  And fast USB transfer rates
Jun 08 21:21:40  hmmm
Jun 08 21:22:07  you're free to try that, but as mentioned above, jury is still out on max USB speed in hostmode
Jun 08 21:22:41  there are reports it's more like 4MB/s rather than 48
Jun 08 21:23:45  Wow, NOK is really decimated (literally)
Jun 08 21:23:51  honestly though what's wrong with Mpeg3
Jun 08 21:23:54  err 2
Jun 08 21:24:09  DocScrutinizer05: well, it looks really, really bad.
Jun 08 21:24:18  o.O
Jun 08 21:24:26  DocScrutinizer05: I just played it on my desktop.
Jun 08 21:24:49  it?
Jun 08 21:31:42  still can't get this libcurl3 to update dammit
Jun 08 21:32:50  DocScrutinizer05: a video recorded with standard camera configuration
Jun 08 21:35:20  that's mp4, or worse
Jun 08 21:35:33  if you're referring to N900
Jun 08 21:36:20  DocScrutinizer05: ok, so there is a way to set it to some more decent configuration?
Jun 08 21:36:33  My usb networking stopped working again.
Jun 08 21:36:41  (after a reboot of the PC)
Jun 08 21:37:55  fasta_: I guess there might be
Jun 08 21:38:29  though the DSP is limited on what it can do, compression-wise
Jun 08 21:39:02  .h263 baseband or whatever, iirc
Jun 08 21:39:30  you're probably free to implement a better compression algo on the DSP
Jun 08 21:39:54  better as in less loss less compression
Jun 08 21:40:11  more*
Jun 08 21:45:18  you won't squeeze more compression out of that DSP in realtime
Jun 08 21:45:35  you'd be incredibly rich if you do
Jun 08 21:45:52  Oh?
Jun 08 21:46:20  I am sure I could do something with real-time compression.
Jun 08 21:46:35  a better compression algo is a more complex algo, I think somebody could even prove that in theoretical math
Jun 08 21:47:13  DocScrutinizer05: which makes sense.
Jun 08 21:47:27  and the .h263 drives DSP to the limit with baseband (excuse me if I'm using incorrect terms)
Jun 08 21:47:32  If you don't know what a car is, you cannot say 'there is a car in that picture'.
Jun 08 21:48:10  DocScrutinizer05: well, I don't know the terms perfectly, but I do know a few things about compression.
Jun 08 21:48:52  DocScrutinizer05: so, in this case, I can ping the PC, but I cannot get anywhere else :/
Jun 08 21:48:59  anyway, this DSP won't probably allow higher compression/loss ratio than you already get
Jun 08 21:49:44  I was able to use it before to do anything.
Jun 08 21:58:01  Ok, I fixed it now.
Jun 08 22:00:01  DocScrutinizer05: where can I read about the huge piles of money to be made by solving the dsp problem better (which should also contain an exact problem description)? 
Jun 08 22:00:38  I guess it's just part of the equation 'making prettier pictures to be shown with cheaper chips'.
Jun 08 22:00:51  If you can do that better, then you basically can compress arbitrary video streams better
Jun 08 22:01:07  - for less perceptual loss per bit
Jun 08 22:01:17  Real-time compression is a different problem from compression.
Jun 08 22:01:30  Real-time compression using particular chips is again another problem.
Jun 08 22:01:31  It's not.
Jun 08 22:01:37  Yes, it is. 
Jun 08 22:01:38  Same problem.
Jun 08 22:01:46  Slightly different constraints.
Jun 08 22:02:08  By that I mean, that it's highly unlikely that the same two algorithms are applicable.
Jun 08 22:02:41  I.e. the two optimal algorithms for both problems are likely different.
Jun 08 22:03:41  I could go on and develop something which would work great for Youtube videos, but then would be useles for real-time compression of video shot by a user with a camera phone.
Jun 08 22:04:08  It's just a matter of CPU resources.
Jun 08 22:04:45  no matter what, I of course implied realtime
Jun 08 22:04:48  SpeedEvil: it could also be compressed on a GPU or via a custom chip.
Jun 08 22:05:00  DocScrutinizer05: yes, you did and that was completely clear.
Jun 08 22:05:20  How does it currently work? Is it all done via the CPU?
Jun 08 22:05:31  That sounds rather ... unlikely.
Jun 08 22:05:42  Well, it could with non-HD stuff.
Jun 08 22:06:07  The DSP, and a couple of other functional units compress images and video
Jun 08 22:06:14  The CPU is not directly involved.
Jun 08 22:06:29  Oh, right, that's what doc said.
Jun 08 22:06:50  Is there some set of standard DSPs which is like the 'industry leader'?
Jun 08 22:07:06  No.
Jun 08 22:07:24  So, then how can anyone optimize against anything? 
Jun 08 22:07:32  There are common ones, but not dominant.
Jun 08 22:07:45  You would have to either know lots of devices or by sheer luck pick the right one.
Jun 08 22:07:58  The manufacturer of the chip/SoC usually provideds codecs for a handfull of codecs.
Jun 08 22:08:01  I suppose you could minimize gate evalutions or something like that.
Jun 08 22:08:14  evaluations*
Jun 08 22:08:18  And if you're lucky will provide a way to develop your own.
Jun 08 22:08:51  Ok, so basically if one would show something using a FPGA, you would get the interest from the industry. 
Jun 08 22:08:59  That is, something decent. 
Jun 08 22:09:11  Except one still would need to know how good the current solutions are.
Jun 08 22:09:22  No.
Jun 08 22:09:22  (because those then would not run on a FPGA)
Jun 08 22:09:27  Well - yes
Jun 08 22:09:48  If there is no way to compare things, there is no point in even trying.
Jun 08 22:10:02  If you come up with a truly innovative algorithm that provides exccellent video quality in realtime on the FPGA, then people may look to putting that in HW
Jun 08 22:10:15  FPGA are usually too expensive for other than professional gear.
Jun 08 22:10:22  Of course there is a way to compare things.
Jun 08 22:10:27  How?
Jun 08 22:10:44  You look at the video quality you can obtain on commercial hardware with available codecs such as h.264
Jun 08 22:11:15  The codecs are generally platform independant - custom compressions for hardware is rare except on the lowest end.
Jun 08 22:11:24  Ok, right and video quality can be easily measured of course.
Jun 08 22:11:41  Or well, that also kind of depends.
Jun 08 22:11:43  No. That's a whole field on its own, but there are various ways to do it.
Jun 08 22:11:49  Varying from double blind on.
Jun 08 22:12:08  I think you can only compare lossless compression for real world data.
Jun 08 22:12:14  I mean: mathematically.
Jun 08 22:12:19  No, you can't.
Jun 08 22:12:28  Why not?
Jun 08 22:12:41  There are a number of empirical formyklar that measure video quality.
Jun 08 22:13:05  The simplest is measuring the difference between the input and the output frames, and summing the difference over all pixels.
Jun 08 22:13:19  This is not a particularly great method, but it's useful.
Jun 08 22:13:34  Then you go to various methods attempting to model the psychovisual system.
Jun 08 22:13:54  Right, I had thought of those two methods in 10 seconds or so.
Jun 08 22:14:05  Do you have any specific names for those tests?
Jun 08 22:14:15  I suggest you google.
Jun 08 22:14:22  Already did.
Jun 08 22:14:37  Well, never mind. 
Jun 08 22:14:40  I can google again.
Jun 08 22:15:34  video perceptual quality tests bits 
Jun 08 22:15:38  perhaps or something similar
Jun 08 22:21:19  Basically there are two things on which you can win something: knowing lots about the human visual system and knowing something about your input distribution (e.g. it is unlikely that someone will send noise to youtube). 
Jun 08 22:21:49  (Or even record noise in the case that was discussed)
Jun 08 22:26:05  well, detecting noise as such and knowing the human perception can't distinguish one noise from another would already help much
Jun 08 22:28:56  if however you are doinjg a video of the eiffel tower with all those 10000 strob lights, each flashing with a constant frequency and unrelated to the next ones, you have a hard time to distinguish this from true noise algorithically, though humans would immediately notice the differnece
Jun 08 22:31:03  now add in camera moves to that
Jun 08 22:34:51  Does VLC also exist for n900?
Jun 08 22:34:57  I know of kmplayer already.
Jun 08 22:41:28  A bit annoying that FM transmitter doesn't work with USB attached.
Jun 08 22:44:17  that's easily fixable
Jun 08 22:44:27  "there's an app for that" ;-)
Jun 08 22:44:40  DocScrutinizer05: there is?
Jun 08 22:45:08  yep, by jacekowski iirc
Jun 08 22:45:55  http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60567 ?
Jun 08 22:46:01  for vlc I'd point you at package interface once again
Jun 08 22:46:13  Ok
Jun 08 22:46:54  http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bproperty%5D=name&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bvalue%5D=vlc&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bproperty%5D=title&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bvalue%5D=same
Jun 08 22:47:22  Yeah, I already have those.
Jun 08 22:48:14  It says 'network unavailable' btw
Jun 08 22:48:21  While there is a network.
Jun 08 22:48:27  (it being vlc-remote)
Jun 08 22:54:36  DocScrutinizer05: is that xray application real?
Jun 08 22:54:48  nah
Jun 08 22:55:03  Well, good elaborate hoax then.
Jun 08 22:55:04  the wallpaper?
Jun 08 22:55:09  No
Jun 08 22:55:27  It's something which claims to measure background radiation or whatever.
Jun 08 22:55:36  lol
Jun 08 22:56:48  N900-X-Ray is its name.
Jun 08 22:56:57  maybe it's using back camera with door closed? ;-P
Jun 08 22:57:17  http://my-maemo.com/software/applications.php?fldAuto=2264&faq=35
Jun 08 22:57:44  OK, so it's a scam.
Jun 08 22:57:56  bullshit
Jun 08 22:58:30  The N900 fart app.
Jun 08 22:59:19  fasta_, VLC for N900 is very "alpha" quality
Jun 08 23:02:38  fasta_: btw: some indispensible stuff: simple brightness, load widget, apmefo
Jun 08 23:05:24  starhash-enabler, flashlight(?), backupmenu
Jun 08 23:06:42  DocScrutinizer05: maemo5-load-applet or Load Applet?
Jun 08 23:07:02  err simple cpu load applet or sth
Jun 08 23:07:41  indeed - load widget is indespensable and something I miss greatly on my android tablet
Jun 08 23:08:38  It really take years for HAM to load all applications.
Jun 08 23:08:41  you never want to wonder if you missed to hit that ok button or it's already woking at full CPU load and you just need to wait for it to complete
Jun 08 23:09:08  fasta_: disable extras-devel!
Jun 08 23:09:22  it's like 1 min vs 5 min
Jun 08 23:09:40  DocScrutinizer05: but doesn't extras-devel also have interesting stuff?
Jun 08 23:09:47  sure
Jun 08 23:10:08  but then you have to live with the waiting, or use other emans ;-D
Jun 08 23:10:15  means, even
Jun 08 23:10:25  What other means? apt-get?
Jun 08 23:10:31  for example
Jun 08 23:10:48  But you said apt-get would sent me to Hell.
Jun 08 23:10:55  for most pkgs it's flawless
Jun 08 23:10:59  (I am not religious)
Jun 08 23:11:13  no, apt-get dist-upgrade for sure will
Jun 08 23:11:49  apt-get install is usually safe, except for some very special pkgs
Jun 08 23:12:16  nevertheless change your repos in HAM only
Jun 08 23:13:29  and don't worry when apt refuses to work even minutes after HAM got closed. There's some apt-worker process cleaning up, this takes time
Jun 08 23:14:44  apt-cache search is a great tool
Jun 08 23:16:35  and don't forget to create BM-backups frequently. Especially when/before installing stuff from extras-devel
Jun 08 23:22:23  DocScrutinizer, don't forget putting in an extremely long update interval for HAM
Jun 08 23:22:47  apt-worker randomly kicking CPU into max frequency is not cool
Jun 08 23:23:48  hmm, depends
Jun 08 23:24:00  I haven't changed it on my device
Jun 08 23:24:03  THE BETA TEST IS OVER!
Jun 08 23:24:32  probably because I think it's not running updates via GPRS, and at home on WLAN I don't care
Jun 08 23:24:54  Macer: eh?
Jun 08 23:25:07  Macer: The n930 is out?
Jun 08 23:25:37  heh
Jun 08 23:25:43  Macer: your capslock key is defect
Jun 08 23:26:03  sorry. i was making fun of my buggy lumia 900
Jun 08 23:26:11  ah
Jun 08 23:26:17  with its wifi/cell dns scripting fail
Jun 08 23:26:54  DocScrutinizer05, I don't leave wifi on all the time, so when I use my N900 HAM will get itself to update
Jun 08 23:27:04  so I set the interval to something ridiculous
Jun 08 23:27:19  sure
Jun 08 23:29:41  anyway, it's on http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo
Jun 09 00:14:11  Hurrian: 12 months seems ridiculous enough, btw
Jun 09 00:14:35  at some way higher values, doom starts
Jun 09 00:24:01  ok.. crazy question:  Anyone here do anything with Win7 network coding? :P
Jun 09 00:25:33  Got an app, runs fine in XP & linux (cross-compiles)... Runs on win7, but refuses to see UDP broadcast packets...
Jun 09 00:26:13  Wireshark says they're hitting the NIC, as broadcast, but the app never sees them. 
Jun 09 00:26:23 * Woody14619 hates Win7 at times... 
Jun 09 00:26:37  that seems to be  a firewall problem
Jun 09 00:26:41  not an application problem.
Jun 09 00:27:08  you should try disabling your firewall completely in Win7 for a few minutes and try again
Jun 09 00:27:10  I know.. but:  Firewall is off, service is stopped & disabled ( including BFE)
Jun 09 00:28:05  wireshark can see the packets?
Jun 09 00:28:11  but your application can't?
Jun 09 00:28:14  Yup... 
Jun 09 00:28:22  Kills me.
Jun 09 00:28:32  Even rebooted....
Jun 09 00:28:34  o.O
Jun 09 00:28:46  is that .NET using C#?
Jun 09 00:28:46  .oO(Because anyhting netowkr reuqires a reboot in Windows, right?)
Jun 09 00:29:08  Nope.. plain old C, using the socket.h interface for WinSock2.
Jun 09 00:29:25  I even called out the ioctls to enable IP_RECEIVEBROADCAST....
Jun 09 00:29:39  Though in Win7 they're supposed to default to on...
Jun 09 00:30:01  do you have VMWare installed?
Jun 09 00:30:05  I do.
Jun 09 00:30:10  Wait... 
Jun 09 00:30:15  disable all VMWare network adapters.  $100 that will fix it
Jun 09 00:30:16  On the transmit box I so...
Jun 09 00:30:23  no no in the receiver
Jun 09 00:31:07  :-D
Jun 09 00:31:40  nope, not on the receiver... no vmware or virtualbox there.
Jun 09 00:31:55  I have virtualbox on the transmitter, but it's sending packets just fine..
Jun 09 00:33:02  I even setup a firewal rule (even though fw is off) to allow UDP for the port in...
Jun 09 00:33:30  "set the SO_BROADCAST option to setsockopt() correctly"
Jun 09 00:33:31  Figuring just in case some part was still running... it would work.
Jun 09 00:34:10  Yup.. Without that in >WinNT it won't broadcast... And yes, I even set it on the recieve port too.. (tried it both ways)
Jun 09 00:34:28  no clue then :S
Jun 09 00:34:31  I found 2 people on google w/ the same issue & no solutions.. and lots of "solutions" that don't work.. :P
Jun 09 00:34:58  the part that really kills me is that wireshark can see the damn packets... 
Jun 09 00:35:37  on the device I want them to be seen on.... while the app is running.. but the app doesn't see them.
Jun 09 00:36:26  Thanks for the help anyway. :)
Jun 09 00:36:32  Thanks for the help anyway. :)
Jun 09 00:37:55  well Wireshark uses Libpcap
Jun 09 00:38:06  so it's not really surprising, they are using low level direct access to the NIC
Jun 09 00:38:29  you're using a windows library, by definition it HAS to be broken.
Jun 09 00:38:59  a "Microsoft library"
Jun 09 00:40:03  True that.. but really... it should just pass through if FW is off and misc crap is not in the way. :P
Jun 09 00:40:50  And it still works in XP... up to date w/ patches and all that junk.
Jun 09 01:26:31  K... I give up.. Win7 wins till Monday. :)
Jun 09 01:26:55  I'm off to enjoy the weekend.  Have a good one everyone & see you Monday!
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jun 09 02:59:59 2012