**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 15 02:59:59 2012
Nov 15 03:37:26 <DocScrutinizer05> suggested read: http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/523537/0ab1f2cc31a0f6bb/
Nov 15 04:06:59 <Skry> good read
Nov 15 04:10:06 <Hurrian_> DocScrutinizer05, brilliant article.
Nov 15 04:10:28 <Hurrian_> It's exactly my thoughts on devices with locked bootlooaders.
Nov 15 04:10:58 <Hurrian_> IMO, I have no problem with omitting a feature on a product due to dev time/cash restraints
Nov 15 04:11:29 <Hurrian_> but as computers and not fixed function machines, they should be user programmable.
Nov 15 04:11:45 <Hurrian_> As much of the stack as possible should be user-programmable.
Nov 15 04:12:00 <Hurrian_> Locking the user out is a terrible, terrible thing.
Nov 15 04:19:33 * SpeedEvil wants opensourcxe microwave
Nov 15 04:20:01 <Skry> just yesterday i was thinking that why oh why do I have to purchase yet another device or two, when I have several omap1's and few 2420 in house unused, that would be capable for the job.
Nov 15 04:20:34 <Skry> so, thanks nokia
Nov 15 04:20:53 <SpeedEvil> Skry: the amount of poorly documented stuff in boxes I have is insane
Nov 15 04:23:12 <Skry> SpeedEvil: yeah, it's amazing how much hardware everyone has which could be made of use but capitalists think differently
Nov 15 04:23:41 <SpeedEvil> and stupid stuff.
Nov 15 04:23:55 <SpeedEvil> I want a kettle with a 15 year guarantee
Nov 15 04:27:38 <Skry> :P
Nov 15 04:31:39 <Skry> hmm, some russian guy has apparently successfully loaded uboot on N70, loading kernel crashes the phone though.. now, that same guy is selling the source on some forum :)
Nov 15 04:31:52 <Hurrian_> Skry, OMAP2xxx? Time to run Maemo on the N95. It even has a GPU!
Nov 15 04:32:14 <Skry> It has everything
Nov 15 04:33:26 <Skry> but can't do shit with it, no idea how the bootloader works, or what bootloader(s) it even has, or is it even possible to run anything but symbian on it
Nov 15 04:34:07 <Skry> I know it is not "standard" 2420 though
Nov 15 04:38:10 <Skry> I believe Nokia requested TI to change some registers or somthing
Nov 15 04:38:52 <Skry> maybe I should just throw it and all the other useless nokias to trash where they belong
Nov 15 04:38:55 <SpeedEvil> might just be the boot loader?
Nov 15 04:39:23 <Skry> SpeedEvil: might be, I cant find any info of the matter for some reason
Nov 15 04:40:33 <SpeedEvil> sigh
Nov 15 04:43:11 <Skry> well, at least my philips tv runs linux and has openish firmware, in case i get bored enough to brick the only display I have in house :P
Nov 15 04:44:34 <SpeedEvil> :-) 
Nov 15 04:47:11 <Skry> DocScrutinizer05: do you know anything about the boot process of N95?
Nov 15 04:50:30 <Skry> I would be tempted to think it has x-loader involved at some point
Nov 15 05:19:18 <ShadowJK> Interesing, A-data has "Ultra High Speed" microsdhc, which in marketing material claims "random write speeds up to 191 IOPS"
Nov 15 05:19:38 * ShadowJK benchmarked most cards to about 4
Nov 15 05:21:13 <ShadowJK> i wonder if it's true
Nov 15 05:25:24 * Drathir dont forgive only have freqy day and night when wake up goin to continiue adventure with reflash...
Nov 15 05:33:17 <joga> ShadowJK which class cards? 
Nov 15 05:33:33 <ShadowJK> it doesn't have a class rating
Nov 15 05:33:39 <joga> heh
Nov 15 05:34:22 <ShadowJK> http://www.multitronic.fi/media.php?id=9954
Nov 15 05:36:18 <Skry> ..internal testing :)
Nov 15 05:36:52 <Skry> could be worth benchmarking though
Nov 15 05:37:31 <ShadowJK> yes
Nov 15 05:39:32 <Skry> too bad can't afford 63e
Nov 15 05:39:46 <jon_y> DocScrutinizer05: I feel angry after reading the article :(
Nov 15 05:39:56 <jon_y> damn camera has no raws support
Nov 15 05:41:10 <ShadowJK> I'm going to order the 16g one for testing
Nov 15 05:41:53 <Skry> drop a line when you get the results
Nov 15 05:42:38 <ShadowJK> wtf, delivery in envelope not an option
Nov 15 05:42:48 <Hurrian_> Skry, apparently my TV came with a GPL CD and toolchain and instructions.
Nov 15 05:43:15 <Hurrian_> Wonderful. Time to build a rootfs with busybox, and load programs off /opt.
Nov 15 05:46:21 <Skry> Hurrian_: thats great. you have usb port on it?
Nov 15 05:46:49 <Hurrian_> Skry, yup, apparently it uses ffmpeg with binary blob for decode acceleration
Nov 15 05:50:14 <Hurrian_> Uses some sort of MIPS CPU, but the TV side of it is completely separate from the Linux side
Nov 15 05:51:23 <Hurrian_> there's a binary that controls the source->panel switcher, and the fb driver that it comes with just draws the changed pixels on top of the display surface
Nov 15 05:52:03 <jon_y>  does it allow loading 3rd party libraries
Nov 15 05:52:07 <jon_y> ?
Nov 15 05:52:46 <jon_y> kind of moot if it's like a tivo
Nov 15 05:52:49 <Hurrian_> jon_y, needs uclibc built stuff, fortunately the toolchain's included, for cross compile from x86
Nov 15 05:53:29 <Hurrian_> I need to flash a root with ext2 support and busybox included first, then we can have fun.
Nov 15 05:53:37 <jon_y> does the binaries need to be signed?
Nov 15 05:53:40 <Hurrian_> Nope.
Nov 15 05:54:15 <Hurrian_> All you need to do is pack the rootfs into a jffs2 image and flash it.
Nov 15 05:54:16 <jon_y> nice
Nov 15 05:55:02 <Hurrian_> ooh, 512M CPU accessible RAM.
Nov 15 05:55:11 <Skry> mines mips too, somewhat limited in RAM but should suffice for cmdline stuff. Similar behaviour as hurrians, just throw the image to usb stick and go.
Nov 15 05:55:43 <jon_y> my TV is still a jumbo CRT tube
Nov 15 05:55:46 <Hurrian_> To clarify, it's a MIPS32r1 core.
Nov 15 05:58:41 <Hurrian_> Skry, I think I can run a semi-decent system on this thing,
Nov 15 05:59:43 <Hurrian_> I can apparently tell the muxer chips to resize the input stream, or blank it entirely, allowing me to have PIP while say, doing some light browsing.
Nov 15 06:02:20 <Hurrian_> jon_y beware, iirc the Samsung Smart TVs are tivoized Linux.
Nov 15 06:03:04 <Skry> Hurrian_: awesome! I think I'm gonna take a look at mine too. btw what make and model you have?
Nov 15 06:04:15 <Hurrian_> Skry, a 42 inch LG TV, and from the GPL CDs, it seems that the 32 inch ones downstairs run on the same platform
Nov 15 06:05:18 <jon_y> Hurrian_: cool, I will consider an LG when purchasing TVs in the future
Nov 15 06:05:32 <jon_y> all of them running Linux?
Nov 15 06:05:57 <Hurrian_> Oh, and Skry and jon_y, these two are regular LCD TVs, no smart tv gimmick thing.
Nov 15 06:06:18 <Hurrian_> jon_y, yup, 2.6.31.
Nov 15 06:06:30 <jon_y> LCD TVs with 1920p output?
Nov 15 06:06:59 <jon_y> I need one for my xmbc :)
Nov 15 06:07:18 <Hurrian_> 1920p? I think you mean 1080p or 1920x1080.
Nov 15 06:07:36 <Hurrian_> Unless you're talking about a vertical TV.
Nov 15 06:07:38 <Skry> yeah. i have 42" philips fullhd, no "smart tv" shit or anything in it. i think most of the philips 7xxx, 8xxx and 9xxx run linux
Nov 15 06:07:47 <jon_y> oops, yeah 1080p
Nov 15 06:08:27 <jon_y> Hurrian_: what's your model number?
Nov 15 06:10:04 <Hurrian_> jon_y, 32LK310 for the 32 inch one, going to check the 42 inch one
Nov 15 06:11:57 <jon_y> I wonder if it's practical to use the 32 inch as a clonned secondary monitor
Nov 15 06:11:58 <Hurrian_> most of the 32LK series should be the same, the difference only being in the casing, which appeals to different markets
Nov 15 06:13:06 <Hurrian_> I'll check my sister's Bravia non-internet TV when I get to her place, but IIRC it runs a proprietary RTOS.
Nov 15 06:13:20 <jon_y> play my PC vidya game with a screen watchable in the living room
Nov 15 06:14:12 <jon_y> so nobody needs to crowd around me
Nov 15 06:14:30 <Hurrian_> jon_y, uhh, how long would that cable be?
Nov 15 06:14:49 <jon_y> Hurrian_: pc does not need to be far off
Nov 15 06:15:14 <jon_y> as long as nobody crowds around the far far smaller PC screen
Nov 15 06:15:21 <Hurrian_> ah. I know some people with HDMI cables running 10m ;)
Nov 15 06:15:50 <jon_y> 2-3m would be good enough
Nov 15 06:18:15 <jon_y> I tried streaming with ffmpeg once
Nov 15 06:18:27 <jon_y> quality was poor, cpu usage went up badly
Nov 15 06:18:41 <jon_y> not enough bandwidth for raw stream
Nov 15 06:19:04 <Hurrian_> heh, any sort of transcoding would make high profile 1080 look awful.
Nov 15 06:19:27 <jon_y> x264 looks decent, except the cpu usage spiked
Nov 15 06:19:56 <Hurrian_> jon_y, now try passing that through WiFi-G to a PS3.
Nov 15 06:20:06 <Hurrian_> That endeavor was painful.
Nov 15 06:20:27 <jon_y> raw stream is OK, if your network can sustain 50MB/s
Nov 15 06:20:39 <jon_y> 1Gbit home network
Nov 15 06:20:57 <jon_y> kind of rare for a TV appliance to even have 1Gbit
Nov 15 06:21:15 <Hurrian_> Also, most transcoders bombed out on Hi10P video. So I ended up using a very long HDMI cable to display output from MPCHC.
Nov 15 06:21:43 <jon_y> heh, there are no hw decoders for 10bit yet, none that I know of
Nov 15 06:22:32 <Hurrian_> it'd be years if ever before hi10p gets supported though in hw
Nov 15 06:22:57 <Hurrian_> I assume most SoC manufacturers would jump to H265 instead
Nov 15 06:23:10 <jon_y> try gaming, while transcoding, that suck bad unless you have dual socket workstations
Nov 15 06:23:40 <Hurrian_> jon_y, depends on process priority ;)
Nov 15 06:23:51 <jon_y> cpu usage with x264 takes about 25% cpu time
Nov 15 06:24:02 <jon_y> while recording an idle desktop at 1080p
Nov 15 06:24:47 <jon_y> not good when showing on-screen game action
Nov 15 06:42:05 <Skry> I actually have this 42" as my primary display, and couch as my primary position :) My font size is huuge.
Nov 15 08:36:10 <Lava_Croft> hatseflats: fixed it?
Nov 15 08:59:21 <kerio> vi_: luf is online btw
Nov 15 09:43:46 <Ken-Young> How are the maemo servers going to be paid for once Nokia stops paying?
Nov 15 09:58:28 <Hurrian> Ken-Young, they don't.
Nov 15 09:58:46 <Hurrian> Nemein will probably shut them down once the bills are left unpaid too long.
Nov 15 10:36:31 <kerio> yo vi__, why aren't you in #maemo-ssu
Nov 15 10:37:12 <vi__> that is a thing?
Nov 15 10:37:29 <kerio> it's been a thing for a while
Nov 15 10:37:31 <kerio> it's also in the topic
Nov 15 10:37:35 <kerio> and the bluez dude is there
Nov 15 10:38:05 <vi__> Im in!
Nov 15 10:38:28 <vi__> who was the guy who made the thumb life picture?
Nov 15 10:39:06 <kerio> vi__: still me
Nov 15 10:39:31 <vi__> kerio: You made it?
Nov 15 10:39:39 <kerio> yep
Nov 15 10:39:47 <vi__> can I post it on TMO?
Nov 15 10:42:14 <kerio> vi__: sure
Nov 15 10:50:55 <chem|st> [mailinglist] estel is close to saying "hitler" or "nazi"... he is up for genocide comparisons yet, can someone sane please ask him to grow up and take punishment like a man and not like a 5 year old sissy "with sugar on top"
Nov 15 10:53:13 <pcfe> nobody invoked Goodwin?
Nov 15 10:53:28 <chem|st> pcfe: not yet... would you mind?
Nov 15 10:53:57 <chem|st> pcfe: put Goodwin's Law up his...
Nov 15 10:54:12 <pcfe> chem|st: I have not been active on the list lately, errm actually for a very loong time
Nov 15 10:54:52 <pcfe> there wasw a nice picture of an imaginary playing card on uncyclopedia, but last time I looked I failed to find it again
Nov 15 10:55:09 <chem|st> fun fact: JCDenton contacted Estel with facts JCDenton doesn't know if JCDenton is not the verysame person as Estel
Nov 15 10:55:45 <Hurrian> chem|st, wasn't one of Estel's emails to mailinglist footered with "JCDenton"?
Nov 15 10:55:58 <Hurrian> anyways, the drama on the ML sure is ugly.
Nov 15 10:56:21 <chem|st> JCDenton never contacted any admin
Nov 15 10:56:29 <vi__> chem|st: I wanted to chastise him for suggesting that unimaginable human suffering is in anyway like his situation.
Nov 15 10:56:42 <vi__> However I am reminded of the 2nd rule of the net.
Nov 15 10:56:46 <pcfe> have people forgotten the fine art of doing *plonk*
Nov 15 10:56:48 <vi__> Do not feed the trolls.
Nov 15 10:56:52 <pcfe> vi__++
Nov 15 10:56:57 <chem|st> ++
Nov 15 10:57:14 <vi__> chem|st: Is there no one who is able to ban him from the list?
Nov 15 10:57:17 <chem|st> I was at the Dwarf throw of Helms Clam
Nov 15 10:57:17 <pcfe> put the trolls in killfiles. Sooner or later they get bored of shouting in the desert
Nov 15 10:57:18 <vi__> This has gone far enough.
Nov 15 10:57:59 <chem|st> pcfe: he is no troll he is a real dwarf
Nov 15 10:58:29 <vi__> chem|st: Who moderates the mailing list?
Nov 15 10:58:34 <chem|st> thinking about it no he is a troll
Nov 15 10:58:51 <chem|st> dwarfs are trolls with balls... even the female ones
Nov 15 10:58:57 <chem|st> vi__: I have no idea
Nov 15 11:57:19 <kerio> is there a way to pump up the bluetooth tx?
Nov 15 11:58:30 <DocScrutinizer05> Skry: sorry, no info about n95 boot
Nov 15 12:30:14 <vi__> Is there a way to read conversations from the commandline?
Nov 15 12:31:48 <vi__> Interacting with the conversations db over the commandline would RULE.
Nov 15 12:31:49 <flux> I think it's maybe possible with sqlite (or sqlite3, whatever it was)
Nov 15 12:32:07 <kolp> vi__: Yes, by using sqlite3
Nov 15 12:32:19 <flux> is the database schema documented somewhere?
Nov 15 12:33:33 <kolp> $ sqlite3 .rtcom-eventlogger/el-v1.db
Nov 15 12:33:37 <kolp> sqlite> .schema
Nov 15 12:33:39 <kolp> ;)
Nov 15 12:35:05 <flux> it would serve as a better documentation if sqlite knew about foreign key constraints or NOT NULL.
Nov 15 12:35:19 <flux> ..and comments
Nov 15 12:35:45 <flux> of course, it's still better than nothing :)
Nov 15 12:36:10 <kerio> if you want a RDBMS, use a RDBMS
Nov 15 12:36:49 <flux> sadly I don't have the choice for n900 :)
Nov 15 12:37:15 <flux> (although I think sqlite is a great match for that use)
Nov 15 12:44:27 <MrPingu_TUD> vi_: Fixed my issues, it was some missing library :P
Nov 15 12:44:58 <MrPingu_TUD> aaaand, your xbindkeys depens on guile-1.8-libs, mine not
Nov 15 12:45:16 <MrPingu_TUD> Anyway got a working xbindkeys which doesn't show up in powertop :)
Nov 15 12:46:34 <vi__> MrPingu_TUD: Really?
Nov 15 12:46:45 <vi__> MrPingu_TUD: Did you use my one in the end?
Nov 15 12:47:15 <MrPingu_TUD> vi__: haha mine is just buggy, found somewhere on TMO
Nov 15 12:47:56 <vi__> MrPingu_TUD: which one is bigger?
Nov 15 12:48:03 <vi__> Perhaps yours is statically linked.
Nov 15 12:48:37 <kerio> yo vi__, how do i kill off modest for good?
Nov 15 12:48:49 <vi__> kerio: heh, with a silver bullet.
Nov 15 12:49:07 <vi__> kerio: You have to edit the modest.desktop and comment out the lines about it pre loading.
Nov 15 12:49:22 <vi__> You then have to uninstall the activesync daemon.
Nov 15 12:49:56 <vi__> that MOSTLY keeps it dead.
Nov 15 12:50:09 <MrPingu_TUD> I don't care :P It's working now
Nov 15 12:50:23 <vi__> You also have to kill the process after you close the gui.
Nov 15 12:50:33 <vi__> modest JUST_WONT_DIE.
Nov 15 12:50:53 <kerio> i wish i could uninstall it without fucking up the metapackage
Nov 15 12:50:58 <vi__> You could of course jsut uninstall modest.
Nov 15 12:51:22 <vi__> It has some wierd dependencies?
Nov 15 12:51:29 <kerio> oh no, even worse
Nov 15 12:51:35 <kerio> nokiamessaging depends on modest
Nov 15 12:51:40 <vi__> oh boy, my aluminum n900 cases just arrived!
Nov 15 12:52:15 <kerio> :O
Nov 15 12:52:16 <kerio> photo
Nov 15 12:52:18 <kerio> nao
Nov 15 12:52:21 <Skry> !!
Nov 15 12:52:26 <MrPingu_TUD> Mine second N900 doesn't arrive at all, or isn't send at all =/
Nov 15 12:53:07 <vi__> kerio: I made a post on TMO, the company is practically giving them away as they are old, end of line stock.
Nov 15 12:53:35 <vi__> So I bought 2!
Nov 15 12:53:47 <kerio> yay
Nov 15 12:53:51 <kerio> as i said, photo pls
Nov 15 12:54:00 <kerio> also, what do i have to uninstall exactly?
Nov 15 12:54:04 <kerio> what's activesync?
Nov 15 12:54:23 <vi__> some gay syncing thing.
Nov 15 12:54:27 <vi__> I dunno.
Nov 15 12:54:31 <vi__> ~activsync
Nov 15 12:54:36 <vi__> ~wiki activsync
Nov 15 12:54:39 <infobot> I couldn't find a matching article in wikipedia, look for yerselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=activsync&go=Go
Nov 15 12:55:06 <vi__> vi__: perhaps that is why my device no longer talks to nokia suite?
Nov 15 12:55:14 <kerio> probably
Nov 15 12:55:22 <vi__> Although I reinstalled it.
Nov 15 12:55:37 <vi__> AS spams dbus with calls for modest.
Nov 15 12:56:00 <vi__> Thus AS keeps resseurecting modest even after you kill it.
Nov 15 12:56:12 <vi__> So you have 2 choices:
Nov 15 12:56:23 <vi__> 1. remove the dbus handler
Nov 15 12:56:28 <vi__> 2. Remove AS
Nov 15 12:57:43 <vi__> kerio: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419BLGL9jYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
Nov 15 12:58:22 <kerio> vi__: eeeeeh
Nov 15 12:58:46 <vi__> full on warhammer 40k battle armour.
Nov 15 12:59:18 <vi__> I bought 2.
Nov 15 12:59:25 <kerio> the otterbox is still better >:C
Nov 15 12:59:30 <vi__> They were like $17 each.
Nov 15 12:59:44 <jon_y> looks tough
Nov 15 13:00:02 <vi__> kerio: probably, however N900 stuff is now EOL so you had better get it now!
Nov 15 13:00:02 <jon_y> does it come with a screen protector?
Nov 15 13:00:07 <vi__> jon_y: No
Nov 15 13:00:12 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: aluminium N900 case? Dude, will turn your internate tablet phone into a gameboy
Nov 15 13:00:20 <DocScrutinizer05> internet*
Nov 15 13:00:21 <kerio> hahaha
Nov 15 13:00:22 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: IDGAF.
Nov 15 13:00:36 <vi__> I REGRET NOTHING.
Nov 15 13:00:56 <jon_y> gameboy == toughbox
Nov 15 13:01:17 <jon_y> next to the original nokia phones
Nov 15 13:01:39 <jon_y> 2xxx and 3xxx series phones
Nov 15 13:01:52 <vi__> It comes with a totally brutal belt clip.
Nov 15 13:02:08 <jon_y> where do I buy it?
Nov 15 13:02:16 <vi__> I was hoping it might be possible to cut the hinge and use it like a slider case like the otterbox.
Nov 15 13:02:34 <vi__> jon_y: From the boxwave website.  They only had 11 left after I bought 2.
Nov 15 13:02:40 <DocScrutinizer05> I really wonder which silly rationale justifies a case that renders *all* radio stuff non-working
Nov 15 13:03:00 <jon_y> take it out to make a call? :)
Nov 15 13:03:19 <DocScrutinizer05> that's not a case but a holster then
Nov 15 13:03:34 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: The belt clip is detachable.
Nov 15 13:03:46 <kerio> vi__: i just moved modest.desktop and it appears to not be running anymore
Nov 15 13:03:46 <kerio> cool
Nov 15 13:03:58 <vi__> kerio: o0
Nov 15 13:04:06 <vi__> dont get your hopes up.
Nov 15 13:04:09 <kerio> k
Nov 15 13:04:18 <kerio> i even rebooted though, and it's not restarting
Nov 15 13:04:20 <vi__> zombie modest will not die so easily.
Nov 15 13:04:47 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, since autostarting modest is vie .desktop and the well known entries there
Nov 15 13:04:59 <DocScrutinizer05> via*
Nov 15 13:06:04 <kerio> ok, opening the MfE settings panel brought it up again
Nov 15 13:06:07 <kerio> but killing it left it dead
Nov 15 13:06:17 <DocScrutinizer05> zombie modest is the already started modest that gets restarted via alarmd, I'd guess
Nov 15 13:06:21 <vi__> kerio: Just you wait.
Nov 15 13:06:32 <vi__> modest is a cunning foe.
Nov 15 13:06:38 <kerio> haha
Nov 15 13:06:46 <jon_y> its like that jason movie
Nov 15 13:06:53 <jon_y> it won't die
Nov 15 13:07:04 <jon_y> prepare for next episode :)
Nov 15 13:07:07 <DocScrutinizer05> no autostart of modest during boot -> no alarmd event to restart it
Nov 15 13:07:40 <DocScrutinizer05> my uneducated guess ^^^
Nov 15 13:07:40 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: Messages addressed to modest over dbus cause it to awaken.
Nov 15 13:07:50 <vi__> like moustakrakish the lake troll.
Nov 15 13:07:56 <kerio> vi__: where's the dbus thing stored?
Nov 15 13:08:04 <vi__> kerio: NFC.
Nov 15 13:08:12 <DocScrutinizer05> alarmd
Nov 15 13:08:14 <kerio> you're useless! :(
Nov 15 13:09:32 <DocScrutinizer05> or, of course, hildon desktop as long as modest has a autostart .desktop
Nov 15 13:09:47 <DocScrutinizer05> HD will restart it then, no way to kill it
Nov 15 13:11:06 <jon_y> move the executable itself?
Nov 15 13:11:06 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm rather sure no other process but HD and modest itself care about restarting modest
Nov 15 13:11:08 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: I have researched killing modest quite hard.
Nov 15 13:11:27 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: reread my posts above
Nov 15 13:12:56 <DocScrutinizer05> as long as you got a alarmd entry (up to some 30, 60? min into the future) that got created by meodest and will restart modest when alarm goes off, you won't see modest staying dead
Nov 15 13:13:27 <jon_y> have you tried moving modest away?
Nov 15 13:13:40 <DocScrutinizer05> jon_y: that's cheating
Nov 15 13:13:48 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: Ha!
Nov 15 13:13:50 <jon_y> :)
Nov 15 13:13:52 <kerio> jon_y: that would cause all sorts of problems when things try to start it
Nov 15 13:14:11 <vi__> kerio: I dunno, it is how I finally got rid of bing desktop on my work computer.
Nov 15 13:15:38 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd happily try to just remove the x-autostart line in modest.desktop, then give it two boots and 3h at least to go and die
Nov 15 13:16:23 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe even clear the alarmd queue
Nov 15 13:17:09 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: it's much easier for me
Nov 15 13:17:12 <kerio> i don't use modest :)
Nov 15 13:17:25 <DocScrutinizer05> of course I could be completely wrong and modest is using a totally different method not related to alarmd, to do the scheduled polls
Nov 15 13:18:51 <vi__> After removing all the auto starting the only way I could keep modest down MOST of the time was to remove the activesync daemon.
Nov 15 13:19:10 <vi__> I still wanted it to be the mail:// handler.
Nov 15 13:19:26 <vi__> kerio: Why are you so desperate to kill modest anyway?
Nov 15 13:19:34 <kerio> idk, i felt like it
Nov 15 13:19:40 <vi__> works for me.
Nov 15 13:19:56 <DocScrutinizer05> oooh, fsckng activesync, right!
Nov 15 13:20:05 <jon_y> an even more awesome method is to hook modest calls
Nov 15 13:20:17 <jon_y> to stop it from calling alarmd
Nov 15 13:20:22 <jon_y> or viceversa
Nov 15 13:21:10 <jon_y> .so inject?
Nov 15 13:21:14 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: you're absolutely right
Nov 15 13:21:18 <vi__> I have mused to myself that a person could hijack the startup process of the n900, when it starts the blackbox windows manager (for lock code and stuff) you could start a PSX emulator or someother heavy thing that needs all your ram and CPU.
Nov 15 13:21:47 <vi__> infobot: vi__ is 13:21 < DocScrutinizer05> vi__: you're absolutely right
Nov 15 13:21:47 <infobot> okay, vi__
Nov 15 13:22:12 <Skry> :D
Nov 15 13:22:41 <DocScrutinizer05> now already lock it as well!
Nov 15 13:22:50 <vi__> ~lock vi__
Nov 15 13:22:51 <infobot> locking factoid vi__, vi__
Nov 15 13:22:52 <MrPingu_TUD> vi_: that was possible on symbian, boot without everything but taskmanager, gaves you a whopping 100mb on n82 :P
Nov 15 13:22:55 <vi__> BOOYAH!
Nov 15 13:23:02 <DocScrutinizer05> otherwise e*_ comes and messes it up
Nov 15 13:23:19 <vi__> I thought he was mega b&.
Nov 15 13:23:58 <DocScrutinizer05> he already did evade ban via other nick, and by talking to infobot in query
Nov 15 13:24:15 <vi__> If a user needs all their ram they could just kill browserd + modest to play gamez
Nov 15 13:24:25 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: I think he is mentally ill.
Nov 15 13:24:35 <DocScrutinizer05> sure he is, proof on ML
Nov 15 13:25:23 <jon_y> b& who?
Nov 15 13:25:48 <kerio> vi__: you copied my factoid! :(
Nov 15 13:25:51 <vi__> jon_y: He who shall not be nameth.
Nov 15 13:25:57 <vi__> ~kerio
Nov 15 13:25:57 <infobot> i heard kerio is <DocScrutinizer> [...] kerio is correct [...]
Nov 15 13:26:01 <DocScrutinizer05> when your GF gives you a 'kiss my ass, bye!', sexual deprivation can du that to you. Not saying it applies to our fav troll
Nov 15 13:26:04 <vi__> ~vi__
Nov 15 13:26:04 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, vi__ is 13:21 < DocScrutinizer05> vi__: you're absolutely right
Nov 15 13:26:19 <vi__> I feel today I have ascended to manhood.
Nov 15 13:26:29 <MrPingu_TUD> ~MrPingu
Nov 15 13:26:37 <MrPingu_TUD> I don't exist :D
Nov 15 13:26:52 <vi__> MrPingu_TUD: Your time will come.
Nov 15 13:27:05 <DocScrutinizer05> do*
Nov 15 13:27:37 <MrPingu_TUD> No I don't ^^ I can't think
Nov 15 13:31:06 * MrPingu_TUD is going for his lunch
Nov 15 13:31:09 <MrPingu_TUD> bye!
Nov 15 13:31:18 <Skry> o/
Nov 15 13:32:50 <vi__> ~jrtools
Nov 15 13:32:50 <infobot> [jrtools] http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
Nov 15 13:44:49 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: Why are sip calls so choppy?
Nov 15 13:45:54 <jon_y> wifi?
Nov 15 13:46:23 <vi__> jon_y: yes.
Nov 15 13:47:13 <vi__> It is almost unuseable.
Nov 15 13:47:14 <jon_y> maybe wifi has too much jitter
Nov 15 13:47:22 <vi__> ?
Nov 15 13:47:33 <vi__> you mean due to powersaving mode?
Nov 15 13:47:54 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: usually related to data path (== WiFi)
Nov 15 13:48:11 <DocScrutinizer05> my SIP calls usually are absolutely fine
Nov 15 13:48:38 <jon_y> vi__: sip has to be more or less real time
Nov 15 13:48:43 <cjdavies> my N900 doesn't seem to switch to wifi when available :/
Nov 15 13:48:46 <cjdavies> even though I told it to
Nov 15 13:48:55 <jon_y> random lags and delays cause problems
Nov 15 13:48:56 <cjdavies> I have to manually click the (rememebred) network to join
Nov 15 13:49:08 <DocScrutinizer05> cjdavies: it only scans every $period minutes
Nov 15 13:49:53 <vi__> Is there a German equivalent of the term 'shit hot'?
Nov 15 13:49:57 <cjdavies> DocScrutinizer05: just noticed that, stuck it down to 5 minutes & see if I notice it changing next time I leave the building & come back
Nov 15 13:49:58 <DocScrutinizer05> cjdavies: though lately I've seen same problem here, have to carefully watch if it's been a sigulary problem
Nov 15 13:50:23 <vi__> Could dbus-scripts be used to tweak some settings on the event of a sip call?
Nov 15 13:50:29 <vi__> Would it be worth it.
Nov 15 13:50:40 <vi__> I.e. power saving mode off
Nov 15 13:50:53 <cjdavies> also, why did nobody tell me about ctrl+backspace to open the application switcher?!
Nov 15 13:51:00 <cjdavies> makes fullscreen much more usable
Nov 15 13:51:07 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: won't work
Nov 15 13:51:15 <vi__> no?
Nov 15 13:51:35 <DocScrutinizer05> since when SIP in hgets detected, you don't wanna re-establish WLAN to change PSM
Nov 15 13:51:54 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: you can change PSM on the fly.
Nov 15 13:52:04 <DocScrutinizer05> not really afaik
Nov 15 13:52:07 <vi__> At least you can set sleep to to like 0uS.
Nov 15 13:52:13 <vi__> perhaps I am mistaken.
Nov 15 13:52:35 <DocScrutinizer05> but anyway, AP should switch to "non-PSM" mode as soon as there's a constant data stream
Nov 15 13:54:12 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: explicitly opening and forwarding port5060 on your router might help, as well as DISabling any SIP-ALG
Nov 15 13:54:31 <vi__> What is sip-alg?
Nov 15 13:54:38 <DocScrutinizer05> SIP-ALG implementations on routers are quite usually terribly broken
Nov 15 13:54:46 <DocScrutinizer05> application level gateway
Nov 15 13:54:54 <DocScrutinizer05> a transparent proxy basically
Nov 15 13:55:13 <vi__> unfortunatley this is at work and I cannot fiddle with the access point.
Nov 15 13:55:25 <vi__> Actually, I probably can.
Nov 15 13:55:33 <vi__> Just got to get the IP address :p
Nov 15 13:55:43 <vi__> It runs dd-wrt afaik.
Nov 15 13:56:34 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.voiptuts.com/2011/02/what-is-sip-alg-application-layer.html
Nov 15 13:56:51 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: Thank you.
Nov 15 13:58:23 <DocScrutinizer05> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application-level_gateway
Nov 15 14:02:31 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: also modern routers like dd-wrt have a QOS / bandwidth management, which you should check if it maybe could prioritize RTP
Nov 15 14:08:53 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: $addr-of-ddwrt//Wireless_Advanced-wl0.asp
Nov 15 14:09:58 <DocScrutinizer05> "voice" there
Nov 15 14:10:48 <DocScrutinizer05> see http://192.168.4.1/help/HWirelessAdvanced.asp
Nov 15 14:12:23 <DocScrutinizer05> >>
Nov 15 14:12:24 <DocScrutinizer05> WMM Support:    Enable support of Wi-Fi Multimedia feature. Configuring QoS options consists of setting parameters on existing queues for different types of wireless traffic. You can configure different minimum and maximum wait times for the transmission of packets in each queue based on the requirements of the media being sent. Queues automatically provide minimum transmission delay for Voice, Video, multimedia, and mission critical 
Nov 15 14:12:26 <DocScrutinizer05> applications, and rely on best-effort parameters for traditional IP data.
Nov 15 14:12:27 <DocScrutinizer05>     Note:    As an Example, time-sensitive Voice & Video, and multimedia are given effectively higher priority for transmission (lower wait times for channel access), while other applications and traditional IP data which are less time-sensitive but often more data-intensive are expected to tolerate longer wait times.<<
Nov 15 14:14:06 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: it's an endless subject, you can tune ~98798 parameters
Nov 15 14:14:34 <kerio> vi__: try BT PAN for your SIP calls :D
Nov 15 14:14:52 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: wireshark has pretty awesome SIP dissectors, even with statistics for complex stuff like jitter etc
Nov 15 14:15:30 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: That is good to know.
Nov 15 14:15:30 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: sure, if it doesn't work, add another layer of complexity and abstraction
Nov 15 14:15:51 <vi__> I just wondered what I can do to make the client as good as possible.
Nov 15 14:16:15 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: it would probably work, because nothing ever uses PAN
Nov 15 14:16:15 <vi__> As I cannot change the settings on my work AP or mrs vi_ work AP.
Nov 15 14:16:17 <kerio> ever
Nov 15 14:16:22 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: for all I know your problem could even be PA-related
Nov 15 14:16:24 <kerio> so it's pretty empty :3
Nov 15 14:16:41 <vi__> kerio: Except for all the wifi trying to muscle in on the air space.
Nov 15 14:16:46 <kerio> vi__: does it work fine with mobile data?
Nov 15 14:16:52 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: yep, particularly no AP ever supports PAN
Nov 15 14:16:52 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: What do you mean PA-related?
Nov 15 14:17:03 <DocScrutinizer05> PolypAudio
Nov 15 14:17:06 <vi__> kerio: SIP fucking sucks over mobile data.
Nov 15 14:17:14 <kerio> :(
Nov 15 14:17:21 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: Is that like a musical squid?
Nov 15 14:17:29 <vi__> kerio: It is pointless.
Nov 15 14:17:34 <DocScrutinizer05> it's the real name of PulseAudio
Nov 15 14:17:46 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: Aaaah, ok.
Nov 15 14:18:03 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: I have pulse audio set to nice -19
Nov 15 14:18:11 <kerio> ...
Nov 15 14:18:20 <kerio> why?
Nov 15 14:18:26 <DocScrutinizer05> that might easily be the culprit
Nov 15 14:18:28 <vi__> kerio: becuz.
Nov 15 14:18:42 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: Yeah.  I need to do some probing.
Nov 15 14:18:51 <kerio> vi__: you have like a billion n900s
Nov 15 14:18:58 <kerio> try with a just-reflashed one
Nov 15 14:19:02 <vi__> kerio: No, I only have 4
Nov 15 14:19:10 <vi__> I need just 2 more.
Nov 15 14:19:21 <vi__> THen I can perform the rite.
Nov 15 14:19:27 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm using SIP since my N810 days, and it mostly been just fine
Nov 15 14:19:44 <kerio> did the n810 have speaker+mic?
Nov 15 14:20:03 <DocScrutinizer05> right ATM there are like 4 SIP clients running here: N810 2*N900 N950
Nov 15 14:20:18 <DocScrutinizer05> all four basically flawless
Nov 15 14:20:25 <vi__> kerio: n810 is just (n900-gsm)+bigger screen.
Nov 15 14:20:34 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: yep, N810 has speakers and a mic
Nov 15 14:20:54 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: it has no earpiece though
Nov 15 14:22:17 <kerio> vi__: and slower cpu
Nov 15 14:22:24 <kerio> and half the ram
Nov 15 14:22:39 <kerio> and no good camera
Nov 15 14:22:48 <vi__> kerio: Yes, ok.  SHITTER hardware.
Nov 15 14:23:14 <vi__> I wish there was some kind of truely P2P voip.
Nov 15 14:23:27 <kerio> vi__: P2P voip? :s
Nov 15 14:23:51 <ShadowJK> the N810 speakers are great, bit the sound circuitry inside is pants
Nov 15 14:23:53 <vi__> Just dial up my domain name and connect directly instead of through google servers.
Nov 15 14:24:14 <ShadowJK> You can run sip like that :)
Nov 15 14:24:27 <vi__> ShadowJK: I do not have my own SIP server!
Nov 15 14:25:05 <ShadowJK> my sip provider that handles my landline phone number will even interact with such setups, they take pride in not being excessively evil corporatists
Nov 15 14:25:19 <vi__> ShadowJK: Who do you use?
Nov 15 14:25:24 <ShadowJK> interact/interoperate
Nov 15 14:25:38 <ShadowJK> a local provider
Nov 15 14:25:45 <vi__> I have a sipgate account, but they seem rather poor.
Nov 15 14:26:48 <ShadowJK> they were a single-town telephone company before they started doing internet and tv
Nov 15 14:27:25 <kerio> why are internet and tv so tightly coupled in the US?
Nov 15 14:27:47 <vi__> kerio: Because they come through the same tube.
Nov 15 14:28:09 <ShadowJK> here I get tv through same optical fibre as my interwebs and sipphone
Nov 15 14:29:28 <ShadowJK> That operator would never ever have built fibre here, so we got together and built our own fibre network, it's an open network so any isp can use it free of charge to offer services to people hooked up to it
Nov 15 14:30:06 <cjdavies> I really wish that you could get Internet separately to landline phone in the UK
Nov 15 14:30:46 <cjdavies> *very* few places have fibre, some places have cable TV that you can get cable Internet with, but then you have to pay for the TV....
Nov 15 14:30:48 <vi__> cjdavies: I agree.
Nov 15 14:31:08 <cjdavies> so we end up paying £11+ per month for a phoneline that we never make phone calls on, simply so we can get DSL pushed down it :/
Nov 15 14:31:11 <vi__> cjdavies: virgin offer internet with no TV.
Nov 15 14:31:15 <cjdavies> yeah?
Nov 15 14:31:20 <cjdavies> pity there is no cable in this town
Nov 15 14:31:23 <vi__> It costs the same though.
Nov 15 14:31:26 <cjdavies> ah, lol
Nov 15 14:31:32 <vi__> exactly.
Nov 15 14:31:33 <cjdavies> I see what they did thar
Nov 15 14:31:37 <kerio> wtf is cable, anyway?
Nov 15 14:31:45 <vi__> cjdavies: They gave you a choice, what more do you want?
Nov 15 14:31:47 <kerio> like, what's the actual, physical cable?
Nov 15 14:31:53 <cjdavies> coax of some sort
Nov 15 14:31:59 <vi__> kerio: No dude, it is liek a hose for data.
Nov 15 14:32:01 <cjdavies> vi__: I guess, you can at least avoid cold calls
Nov 15 14:32:27 <vi__> cjdavies: I do that by not plugging in a phone.
Nov 15 14:32:39 <cjdavies> there is also that option :)
Nov 15 14:32:42 <kerio> here in italy we have a choice of various ISPs, but they all offer DSL, pretty much
Nov 15 14:33:03 <kerio> there are a couple of fibre offers, but only if you're really lucky
Nov 15 14:33:26 <vi__> kerio: Did you get your copy of sygic yet?
Nov 15 14:33:31 <kerio> no
Nov 15 14:33:44 <vi__> I remembered you need to find the torrent with 'galedo' in the title.
Nov 15 14:33:49 <vi__> It has the newest maps.
Nov 15 14:33:56 <vi__> mid 2010
Nov 15 14:34:01 <vi__> teleatlas.
Nov 15 14:34:11 <kerio> the newest maps are from mid 2010? :s
Nov 15 14:34:29 <vi__> yup
Nov 15 14:34:35 <vi__> So much for updates for life.
Nov 15 14:34:41 <kerio> why should i bother then?
Nov 15 14:34:42 <vi__> FUCK YOU SO HARD SYGIC.
Nov 15 14:35:02 <vi__> kerio: Because it is the best sat-nav program on the n900.
Nov 15 14:35:11 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: there's no such thing like a SIP server, basically
Nov 15 14:35:15 <kerio> if i wanted old maps i could just use nokia maps
Nov 15 14:35:41 <vi__> kerio: Nokia maps is updated, it is just the interface is shit and it requires a data connection. sygic does not.
Nov 15 14:36:42 <kerio> nokia maps is also not a satnav
Nov 15 14:36:58 <vi__> semantics.
Nov 15 14:37:27 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: you usually have a SIP registrar that does the INVITE bouncing, then in the end the RTP connection is quite usually p2p
Nov 15 14:38:10 * RST38h yawns
Nov 15 14:38:31 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: ok
Nov 15 14:39:36 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: I send an INVITE-"vi__" to sipgate. sipgate forwards that INVITE to your IP:5060. Your SIP client answers with the port you expect RTP and sipgate bounces that answer to me. Then my client sets up a direct RTP to your IP:port as of your INVITE-response
Nov 15 14:40:04 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: How do they traverse firewalls?
Nov 15 14:40:35 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: there's a thing called direct-IP-2_IP SIP that doesn't use sipgate registrar but directly sends the INVITE to your publicly available domain/IP
Nov 15 14:40:49 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: STUN
Nov 15 14:41:09 <DocScrutinizer05> that's the most annoying detail in whole SIP
Nov 15 14:41:44 <DocScrutinizer05> your firewall is supposed to have open port for my RTP packets to travel to your N900
Nov 15 14:42:53 <DocScrutinizer05> in some rare cases, providers offer to relay RTP data via some proxy they provide, so your firewall/NAT wouldn't see inbound from me but rather from sipgate
Nov 15 14:43:28 <DocScrutinizer05> the type of NAT that needs such stuff is called "symmetric NAT"
Nov 15 14:44:12 <DocScrutinizer05> see "BEHAVE-UDP" RFC
Nov 15 14:46:00 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4787.txt
Nov 15 14:48:32 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: also "recently" some concept called ICE iirc replaced/augmented STUN
Nov 15 14:49:38 <DocScrutinizer05> vi__: then there's also hosted NAT support, some host of measures the provider can do to facilitate NAT-traversal. I think RTP-relaying is one of those measures
Nov 15 14:50:24 <DocScrutinizer05> I never looked closely into the latter
Nov 15 15:11:50 <ShadowJK> Nokia Maps updated for me when I deleted disk cache
Nov 15 15:12:06 <ShadowJK> noticed it when search result was in middle of nowhere on the map, heh
Nov 15 15:18:10 <vi__> ShadowJK: It is easiest to just connect to nokia suite and update map there.
Nov 15 15:18:26 <vi__> It does it in 1 monolithic download.
Nov 15 15:18:37 <vi__> It is a shame the interface is so utterly shit.
Nov 15 15:18:56 <vi__> And they neglected to implement the routing algorithm.
Nov 15 15:19:13 <vi__> All the data is there, it is just not used.
Nov 15 15:19:23 <kerio> ?
Nov 15 15:19:28 <kerio> i thought it was just tiles
Nov 15 15:19:58 <vi__> kerio: It is the same sized download for symbian as it is for maemo.
Nov 15 15:20:04 <vi__> Symbian has offline routing.
Nov 15 15:20:21 <vi__> Ergo maemo has offline routing data but does not use it.
Nov 15 15:20:30 <kerio> can't we run android's tomtom inside apkenv?
Nov 15 15:20:53 <vi__> kerio: Only if it is using sdl and some native shit or something.
Nov 15 15:21:01 <vi__> In short, probably not.
Nov 15 15:30:20 <ShadowJK> isn't there a thread on tmo with mod for voice guided nokia maps?
Nov 15 15:36:22 <merlin1991> ShadowJK: afaik there is a thread for voice guided mappero maps
Nov 15 15:37:36 <vi__> ShadowJK: I do not want voice guided maps.
Nov 15 15:37:46 <vi__> Just a way to search for stuff when I am offline!
Nov 15 15:38:44 <merlin1991> vi__: that even only semiworks on harm :D
Nov 15 15:39:01 <merlin1991> and that was extremely ugly english :P
Nov 15 15:40:48 <jonwil> All I want in a N900 GPS app is offline maps support (so I can download a large package of maps from the internet over fast WiFi and use them on the go without having to wait on a slow cellphone data link and without using my limited mobile data quota), an up-to-date set of maps and support for parsing and using Google GTFS public transit information
Nov 15 15:41:20 <jonwil> Mappero is close on the first one (its possible but annoying to do), good on the second one (if you use the right map provider) and useless on the last one
Nov 15 15:42:21 <ShadowJK> I'm sure there was a thread dedicated to modding/unlocking "hidden" features in the nokia maps jabascripts :)
Nov 15 15:43:30 <jonwil> Nokia maps are nowhere near up-to-date
Nov 15 15:43:38 <jonwil> at least not the data I have been able to grab
Nov 15 15:44:19 <jonwil> also I doubt that even the best hackers could add Google GTFS support in any meaningful way without basically pulling the entire Maps application to bits
Nov 15 15:47:21 <vi__> jonwil: total fail with the sygic maps .pak files.
Nov 15 15:47:45 <jonwil> yeah I suspected that it wasnt going to be possible to use newer maps with older sygic versions
Nov 15 15:48:18 <vi__> jonwil: the data I was using was from a version onlly a month or so newer.
Nov 15 15:49:02 <vi__> There must be somekind of control file in the .pak that determines of the data can be used or not.
Nov 15 15:49:29 <vi__> jonwil: check out marble with monav.
Nov 15 15:49:39 <vi__> It will let you:
Nov 15 15:49:51 <vi__> 1. pre download maps
Nov 15 15:49:56 <vi__> 2. route offline
Nov 15 15:50:01 <vi__> 3. search offline.
Nov 15 15:50:18 <vi__> to be fair it is monav that does the last 2.
Nov 15 15:50:38 <jonwil> if it doesn't have Google GTFS support then its not worth switching from mappero (what I have now)
Nov 15 15:50:56 <kerio> modrana also supports offline routing via monav
Nov 15 15:51:10 <jonwil> The last one is the must-have for mapping but I dont think there is any N900 mapping app that supports GTFS
Nov 15 15:51:33 <chem|st> jonwil: mappero gives me an error for all servers if searching for an address to route to
Nov 15 15:51:44 <jonwil> I dont need routing in my maps app
Nov 15 15:51:56 <ShadowJK> what's gtfs?
Nov 15 15:52:05 <jonwil> Google GTFS public transit information
Nov 15 15:52:11 <ShadowJK> oh
Nov 15 15:52:23 <jonwil> The specs (and plenty of datasets from all sorts of agencies) are public
Nov 15 15:52:58 <ShadowJK> google maps and google drive on my android 4.1 tablet doesn't even have routing/nav for car for me :/
Nov 15 15:56:37 <jonwil> What would be the ideal maps app for me:1.Easy ability to pre-download maps for an entire area/city without needing to resort to tricks to figure out exactly which area to pull down 2.Up-to-date maps for Australia (the OpenStreetMap maps I have with mappero are good on that score) 3.Google GTFS support so I can use it to plan bus/train journeys
Nov 15 15:56:46 <jonwil> I dont need routing or turn-by-turn or voice guidance
Nov 15 15:57:36 <jonwil> Mostly for maps I need to look at where I am and identify which direction to walk to get to where I want to get to or to pan to some other location on the map so I can find a specific location on the map when I know the general area to look at
Nov 15 15:58:00 <chem|st> when I am grown up I will buy a T90 and route with Columbus!
Nov 15 15:58:19 <kerio> a T90?
Nov 15 15:58:21 <jonwil> Or I want to be able to watch the map and see where I am as my GPS coordinates change so e.g. I can see when I need to be ready to get off the bus
Nov 15 15:58:25 <kerio> the russian tank?
Nov 15 15:58:49 <chem|st> for sure!
Nov 15 15:58:54 <chem|st> ~wiki t90
Nov 15 15:58:55 <kerio> why would you need routing with that?
Nov 15 15:59:06 <chem|st> kerio: do you know columbus?
Nov 15 15:59:08 <kerio> turn until your destination is right ahead, and then go straight
Nov 15 15:59:16 <infobot> At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T90 (URL), Wikipedia explains: "'T90' may refer to: * The T-90, a Russian main battle tank (1993) * Canon T90, an SLR film camera * Cray T90, a supercomputer * Chambers County-Winnie Stowell Airport (FFA LID "T90") * T-90 antiaircraft tank, based on the Soviet T-70 (1943) * Type-90 Chinese main battle tank, see Type 96 and Al-Khalid tank {{Letter-NumberCombDisambig}} "
Nov 15 15:59:17 <kerio> chem|st: idk, the dude?
Nov 15 15:59:28 <chem|st> kerio: the program
Nov 15 16:00:06 <vi__> jonwil: Modrana has all that but the gtfs.
Nov 15 16:00:10 <chem|st> Navigation/GPS tool with various export functionality for GPS live data
Nov 15 16:00:15 <vi__> Put a feature request in on tmo!
Nov 15 16:00:59 <chem|st> and it is really blank navigation... waypoints & compass
Nov 15 16:01:53 <jonwil> Is the "modrana announce" thread the best place to post feature requests?
Nov 15 16:02:49 <vi__> jonwil: yes.
Nov 15 16:05:17 <kerio> wtf, modrana qml loaded
Nov 15 16:13:38 <jonwil> ok, suggestion posted
Nov 15 16:13:56 <jonwil> described what I need out of Google GTFS support
Nov 15 16:15:06 <jonwil> well what I want anyway :)
Nov 15 16:16:05 <Pali> jonwil, hi
Nov 15 16:16:44 <Pali> you did some icd2 investigation, can you look at bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11915 ?
Nov 15 16:16:47 <povbot> 04Bug 11915: Community SSU script doesn't work if you are behind a proxy
Nov 15 16:17:39 <jonwil> I didn't go anywhere near the proxy stuff
Nov 15 16:18:44 <kerio> Pali: well, afaik there's no generic way to configure a proxy in unix
Nov 15 16:19:16 <kerio> Pali: what does the community ssu enabler need internet connectivity for, anyway?
Nov 15 16:19:19 <Pali> what is needed is 1) find gconf key for proxy used by icd2 and 2) tell apt-get to use proxy
Nov 15 16:19:27 <kerio> it should strictly be a HAM thing
Nov 15 16:20:05 <Pali> cssu installer has script which calling apt-get
Nov 15 16:20:31 <Pali> jonwil, anyway do you have something new about systemui?
Nov 15 16:20:38 <kerio> Pali: iirc it only sets the packages that mp-fremantle-generic-pr depends on as manually installed
Nov 15 16:20:39 <jonwil> nope
Nov 15 16:21:20 <jonwil> I gave up on systemui a while back, it was too complex to figure out more beyond what I already figured out (mostly lock-screen stuff)
Nov 15 16:21:40 <jonwil> my efforts there were mostly so someone could replace the tklock plugin easily
Nov 15 16:29:08 <jonwil> so I cant really help with the other systemui plugins (like the actingdead one)
Nov 15 16:55:39 <kerio> os x doesn't want to work properly with g_nokia's usb networking :(
Nov 15 16:55:55 <kerio> and i heard that g_ether is slow as fuck
Nov 15 16:57:39 <Drathir> hi again...
Nov 15 16:57:48 <vi__> yo.
Nov 15 16:59:48 <vi__> How come, with wifi power saving on I am using ~245mA of power when streaming music.
Nov 15 17:00:06 <vi__> But as soon as I enter:
Nov 15 17:00:51 <vi__> iwconfig wlan0 power period 10m
Nov 15 17:01:01 <vi__> I am only using 100mA?
Nov 15 17:01:17 <vi__> Does that mean there is a shit load more power saving to be done with wifi?
Nov 15 17:01:31 <freemangordon> vi__: looks like
Nov 15 17:01:44 <freemangordon> 60% saving is lots of
Nov 15 17:01:46 <vi__> That is a saving of around 50%
Nov 15 17:01:49 <vi__> Brutal.
Nov 15 17:02:01 <freemangordon> what that command is supposed to do?
Nov 15 17:02:11 <freemangordon> 10m
Nov 15 17:02:15 <freemangordon> what it is?
Nov 15 17:02:20 <freemangordon> 10 msecs?
Nov 15 17:02:22 <vi__> it changes the amount of time the wifi interface is in sleep mode.
Nov 15 17:02:34 <vi__> yes, 10 msecs
Nov 15 17:02:41 <freemangordon> hmm, what is the value before you set it
Nov 15 17:02:43 <freemangordon> ?
Nov 15 17:02:48 <vi__> ...
Nov 15 17:02:55 <vi__> I do not know how to check :/
Nov 15 17:03:04 <vi__> it is not a thing iwconfig shows normally.
Nov 15 17:03:24 <freemangordon> iwconfig wlan0 power show?
Nov 15 17:03:26 <vi__> I bet it will give shit latency.
Nov 15 17:03:27 <freemangordon> wild guess
Nov 15 17:03:43 <vi__> guess harder!
Nov 15 17:03:50 <vi__> well this is cool.
Nov 15 17:04:06 <vi__> It has practically double the time I can be listening to streaming music!
Nov 15 17:04:20 <freemangordon> hmm, maybe it is time to RE some more shit :P
Nov 15 17:04:26 <freemangordon> or...
Nov 15 17:04:38 <vi__> freemangordon: It is possibly something a bit simpler.
Nov 15 17:04:44 <freemangordon> find at least one more to do that 
Nov 15 17:05:00 <vi__> besides, wifi driver is already open!
Nov 15 17:05:02 <freemangordon> vi__: yeah, we need to check what those power profiles mean
Nov 15 17:05:56 <vi__> well for iwconfig you can set a 'level' of power saving.
Nov 15 17:06:12 <freemangordon> pali, sure, but we have GUI for that
Nov 15 17:06:21 <vi__> I do not know what those levels are.  They set different vcalues for sleep period etc.
Nov 15 17:06:21 <freemangordon> oops, vi__
Nov 15 17:06:32 <vi__> ~vi__
Nov 15 17:06:33 <infobot> i guess vi__ is 13:21 < DocScrutinizer05> vi__: you're absolutely right
Nov 15 17:06:39 <vi__> thats MR vi__ now.
Nov 15 17:06:41 <vi__> ~vi__
Nov 15 17:06:59 <freemangordon> sure, but are those hardcoded
Nov 15 17:08:44 <vi__> Yes, I am suggesting perhaps the settings in maemo of (off|on|maximum) are ties to those values in iwconfig.
Nov 15 17:13:41 <vi__> This off the fucking chain.
Nov 15 17:14:12 <vi__> I am saving between 100-150mA of power use.
Nov 15 17:15:04 <vi__> The plot thickens.
Nov 15 17:15:17 <vi__> I just paused, then unpaused media player.
Nov 15 17:15:36 <vi__> It went back upto ~250mA
Nov 15 17:15:57 <vi__> So I entered 'iwconfig wlan0 power period 1' again and now it is back down.
Nov 15 17:16:42 <vi__> Could someone else check?
Nov 15 17:16:44 <freemangordon> weird
Nov 15 17:17:04 <vi__> run the bq27x00 script:
Nov 15 17:17:09 <vi__> bq27x00 -5
Nov 15 17:17:25 <vi__> watch your power use while streaming some music off the net.
Nov 15 17:17:33 <vi__> report value.
Nov 15 17:17:38 <vi__> enter:
Nov 15 17:17:48 <vi__> iwconfig wlan0 power period 1
Nov 15 17:17:53 <vi__> and report value.
Nov 15 17:18:15 <vi__> Either my n900 is foobar or there is a huge chunk of power to be saved here.
Nov 15 17:22:31 <kerio> vi__: i'm downloading the maps around Rome for modrana :D
Nov 15 17:23:10 <vi__> kerio: Have you read what I wrote above?
Nov 15 17:24:24 <kerio> vi__: yeah, i just don't care
Nov 15 17:24:38 <kerio> i didn't buy a n900 to pirate applications
Nov 15 17:24:43 <vi__> You do not care about moar battery life?
Nov 15 17:24:50 <kerio> oh, you mean about wifi
Nov 15 17:24:55 <vi__> wtf are you talking about.
Nov 15 17:25:04 <kerio> ...not really, my n900 can last from the morning to the evening
Nov 15 17:25:05 <vi__> Also, I paid for sygic maps.
Nov 15 17:25:21 <vi__> About 1 week before they dropped all support.
Nov 15 17:25:31 <kerio> vi__: i hope you asked for your money back
Nov 15 17:25:36 <amospalla> guys, about that conversatioon, which is the best free software to replace maemo maps nowadays?
Nov 15 17:25:43 <kerio> amospalla: modrana!
Nov 15 17:25:50 <kerio> it's got offline everything!
Nov 15 17:25:51 <amospalla> its awful
Nov 15 17:25:55 <vi__> kerio: They do not respond to any emails, not even requests for the deb files.
Nov 15 17:26:05 <amospalla> Ill try it, thanks kerio
Nov 15 17:26:06 <kerio> amospalla: it's not
Nov 15 17:26:13 <amospalla> I mean maemo maps
Nov 15 17:26:13 <kerio> oh you mean nokia maps
Nov 15 17:26:15 <kerio> yeah, it's awful
Nov 15 17:26:16 <amospalla> yes
Nov 15 17:26:31 <kerio> vi__: why didn't you chargeback then?
Nov 15 17:26:44 <tadzik> modrana is awesome
Nov 15 17:28:07 <vi__> kerio: Because that gets you a poor credit rating.
Nov 15 17:29:06 <kerio> vi__: huh?
Nov 15 17:52:28 <Drathir> DocScrutinizer05: only need check md5 sum and prepare to flash...
Nov 15 17:52:54 <Drathir> also charging too
Nov 15 17:56:07 <kerio> yay
Nov 15 18:06:54 <kerio> what the hell, the modrana downloader doesn't retry to download broken tiles
Nov 15 18:11:43 <kerio> ShadowJK: question: why is the I/O between eMMC and a computer via ass rage *much* faster than the I/O of the n900 itself? 
Nov 15 18:11:55 <kerio> isn't the data still passing through the n900?
Nov 15 18:30:29 <kerio> vi__: i'm downloading maps with modrana running in a fucking linux mint VM
Nov 15 18:30:37 <kerio> there's gotta be a better way :s
Nov 15 18:30:50 <tadzik> huh
Nov 15 18:31:08 <tadzik> modrana on the device is too slow for you?
Nov 15 18:31:22 <tadzik> (not that it's fast, no ;))
Nov 15 18:35:47 <kerio> tadzik: it's more that there's a way to "batch" download the routing data but not the maps
Nov 15 18:36:02 <tadzik> well, to some extend you can, I think
Nov 15 18:36:12 <tadzik> there's this "download around location/view/POI/something/route"
Nov 15 18:36:19 <tadzik> I did this today
Nov 15 18:36:30 <kerio> also, do i have to install monav separately?
Nov 15 18:36:55 <tadzik> you don't need monav to have routing in modrana
Nov 15 18:37:05 <kerio> k
Nov 15 18:37:16 <kerio> it has its own monav-server?
Nov 15 18:37:23 <tadzik> it can even do offline routing, but not sure how well that works
Nov 15 18:37:35 <tadzik> by default it looks stuff up on google/osm I think
Nov 15 18:39:06 <tadzik> I wish modrana qml was more than mostly a mockup
Nov 15 18:39:10 <RiD> Hello there... I'm trying to contact Estel. Anyone knows how?
Nov 15 18:39:29 <tadzik> I think email is the way
Nov 15 18:39:45 <RiD> yes... but i don't have it
Nov 15 18:39:52 <tadzik> check mailing list archives
Nov 15 18:40:15 <kerio> why is everyone looking for estel?
Nov 15 18:40:31 <tadzik> no eye deer
Nov 15 18:40:38 <RiD> Because he's one of the few who i'd trust my still-working N900 to get repaired
Nov 15 18:40:52 <tadzik> maybe everyone considers #maemo to be guilty of his disappearance
Nov 15 18:42:03 <Drathir> anyone maybe remember shortcut for screenshot in n900?
Nov 15 18:42:11 <RiD> ctrl shift p
Nov 15 18:43:23 <RiD> ~estel
Nov 15 18:43:29 <RiD> infobot hi
Nov 15 18:43:29 <infobot> niihau, rid
Nov 15 18:43:34 <RiD> infobot estel
Nov 15 18:43:40 <Drathir> RiD: thanks a lot
Nov 15 18:46:57 * mad_dev RiD thank you for the key combo
Nov 15 18:47:50 <Drathir> mad_dev: hi i prepare to flashing...
Nov 15 18:49:23 <RiD> Drathir & mad_dev nope. One reason I like mobile devices with HW keyboards is exactly this... key combinations! way faster than clicking on a few touchscreen options to copy and paste
Nov 15 18:50:02 <RiD> and it is far easier to select text with the help of the keyboard too. This one thing i've been struggling in doing quickly and properly on a 10.1 tablet, let alone those 3" smartphones
Nov 15 18:50:15 <mad_dev> Drathir: did you go through with it?
Nov 15 18:51:04 <tadzik> hrm, my scratchbox stopped working out of the blue
Nov 15 18:51:48 <kerio> tadzik: apparently it's just a matter of downloading the tiles i need and then consolidating them in the sqlite file
Nov 15 18:52:20 <mad_dev> Drathir: Did you reflash or did just download the firmware and reflasher?
Nov 15 18:52:21 <kerio> SpeedEvil: you're somewhat knowledgeable about OSM, right?
Nov 15 18:52:22 <tadzik> sounds about right
Nov 15 18:52:35 <kerio> would it be feasible to have modrana render the tiles in real-time?
Nov 15 18:52:37 <Drathir> RiD: i also preffer hw keyboard thats one of the reason that i chose n900
Nov 15 18:52:49 <kerio> say, from world.osm :3
Nov 15 18:53:25 <Drathir> mad_dev: i will reading tutorial again and go...
Nov 15 18:53:31 <Drathir> battery full
Nov 15 18:54:00 <Drathir> mad_dev: starting reflashing
Nov 15 18:54:12 <mad_dev> ok
Nov 15 18:55:21 <Drathir> DocScrutinizer05: goin to starting flashing
Nov 15 18:55:32 <mad_dev> Drathir: dont forget to hold U
Nov 15 18:56:52 <tadzik> "sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first" -- any idea where tf may those sessions be opened?
Nov 15 18:58:32 <tadzik> ok, there's sb-conf ka, nvm
Nov 15 18:59:09 <kerio> how does g_file_storage work?
Nov 15 18:59:15 <kerio> why is it faster than dd, for instance?
Nov 15 19:04:17 <tadzik> any idea how to run xterm inside scratchbox?
Nov 15 19:06:47 <tadzik> okay, there's osso-xterm, just apt-cache didn't see it
Nov 15 19:06:51 <tadzik> I must stop asking questions :)
Nov 15 19:20:28 <RzR> http://www.xtreamermobile.com/en/index.php do you know this hardware ?
Nov 15 19:20:52 * Drathir ok md5sum correct
Nov 15 19:25:00 <Drathir> mad_dev: first if good remember combined next vanilla?
Nov 15 19:25:17 <Drathir> only confirm
Nov 15 19:25:27 <kerio> RzR: no specs anywhere :s
Nov 15 19:25:35 <kerio> Drathir: can you boot right now?
Nov 15 19:25:56 <kerio> and do you want to reflash everything?
Nov 15 19:26:01 <Drathir> kerio: not yet flashed
Nov 15 19:26:11 <kerio> yeah but why do you want to reflash?
Nov 15 19:26:16 <Drathir> confirm wich first
Nov 15 19:26:58 <Drathir> yryes clean install
Nov 15 19:27:23 <Drathir> bued from someone else
Nov 15 19:27:56 <kerio> RzR: they definetely seem to try to keep things as open as possible, which is good
Nov 15 19:28:02 <mad_dev> Drathir: kerio http://www.xtreamermobile.com/en/explore.php for spec
Nov 15 19:28:04 <kerio> Drathir: combined+vanilla+combined
Nov 15 19:28:20 <Drathir> kerio: ok
Nov 15 19:28:28 <mad_dev> Drathir: firmware then emmc
Nov 15 19:28:44 <kerio> RzR: damn, it's a dual sim?
Nov 15 19:29:40 <RzR> looks yes
Nov 15 19:29:53 <mad_dev> rooted
Nov 15 19:30:00 <RzR> off course
Nov 15 19:33:28 <mad_dev> The problem (my point of view) with android is all unwanted jobs in the background.
Nov 15 19:34:45 <mad_dev> I remember skype never wanting to die......had to uninstall it.
Nov 15 19:36:29 <Drathir> kerio: ok
Nov 15 19:36:41 <Drathir> ok say 3 time succefful
Nov 15 19:36:45 <Drathir> starting
Nov 15 19:37:23 <kerio> mad_dev: apparently that's a "really open" phone
Nov 15 19:37:29 <kerio> and it costs very little
Nov 15 19:39:09 <mad_dev> kerio: I know...very strange
Nov 15 19:39:27 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: would you buy one of those?
Nov 15 19:40:04 <Drathir> Ufff... works
Nov 15 19:40:37 <kerio> mad_dev: why would one buy an xtreamer aiki when there's the nexus 4?
Nov 15 19:40:41 <Drathir> DocScrutinizer05: mad_dev kerio so fust flashing O.o faster than BB have...
Nov 15 19:41:00 <kerio> Drathir: make sure it actually flashed
Nov 15 19:41:14 <kerio> but yeah, it should take around a couple of minutes
Nov 15 19:41:25 <Pali> kerio, Hurrian: do you have battery applet syslog when battery applet showing something bad?
Nov 15 19:41:49 <Pali> you reported more times that battery applet not working correctly
Nov 15 19:41:52 <kerio> Pali: worked flawlessly for me since i installed the one with the logging
Nov 15 19:41:54 <kerio> :D
Nov 15 19:42:01 <Pali> funny
Nov 15 19:42:02 <kerio> also no, i reported it once, and it was after i dicked around with modules
Nov 15 19:42:14 <mad_dev> kerio: Actually I am content with n900...no need for android
Nov 15 19:43:21 <mad_dev> s/content/contempt
Nov 15 19:43:28 <Drathir> yes version changed
Nov 15 19:43:39 <Drathir> whats next on list?
Nov 15 19:43:49 <kerio> Drathir: i hope you haven't put a sim in
Nov 15 19:44:22 <kerio> install openssh, remove cherry, install backupmenu, make a full backup, install cssu, make a full backup
Nov 15 19:46:07 <Drathir> kerio: why sim?
Nov 15 19:46:47 <kerio> Drathir: because otherwise MyNokia will bite your ass and make you send an international SMS
Nov 15 19:47:13 <corecode> o hi
Nov 15 19:47:35 <corecode> so here's the action, and #meego and #harmattan are just idle hangouts
Nov 15 19:48:13 <mad_dev> Drathir: in addition to what kerio said, you should enable Extras repository, install power kernel(no-fear very stable)
Nov 15 19:48:27 <kerio> mad_dev: *after* he's done with basic configuration
Nov 15 19:48:36 <kerio> and extras is already enabled
Nov 15 19:48:45 <kerio> perhaps you mean disable extras and enable extras-devel
Nov 15 19:48:46 <mad_dev> kerio: really???
Nov 15 19:48:54 <mad_dev> kerio: yeah
Nov 15 19:49:16 <corecode> any idea what is required to port maego/maemo to new hardware that is already supported by linux (e.g. cyanogenmod)
Nov 15 19:49:24 <kerio> corecode: never going to happen
Nov 15 19:49:29 <Drathir> kerio: i dont know about that... onetime sms?
Nov 15 19:49:53 <Drathir> kerio: but i have prepaid...
Nov 15 19:49:58 <corecode> kerio: too much work?
Nov 15 19:50:23 <kerio> Drathir: it's a silly subscription service that everyone hates because it's not really clear how to prevent it from sending stuff
Nov 15 19:50:31 <kerio> Drathir: apart, of course, by uninstalling it
Nov 15 19:50:43 <Drathir> kerio: yes take money for sms but only like locally sms cost..
Nov 15 19:50:56 <kerio> anyway, it's not really a big deal
Nov 15 19:50:58 <kerio> but it's annoying
Nov 15 19:51:54 <Drathir> kerio: ok that i go to install ssh but with application menager or console?
Nov 15 19:52:11 <kerio> you need to install it from the application manager at the beginning, you don't have root access yet
Nov 15 19:52:24 <corecode> kerio: i mean, if i wanted to do it, what work would be involved?
Nov 15 19:52:55 <kerio> corecode: it's never going to be maemo, too many components are closed-source and they'll only reasonably work on the n900
Nov 15 19:53:17 <kerio> corecode: if you mean "a linux distro that kinda resembles maemo fremantle and has hildon-desktop", then consider me interested
Nov 15 19:53:18 <tadzik> corecode: Nemo Mobile may interest you'
Nov 15 19:53:35 <corecode> honestly, i like harmattan more than maemo
Nov 15 19:53:35 <tadzik> or Cordia HD, for that matter
Nov 15 19:53:41 <kerio> corecode: i'm not sure an android phone is good for that, though
Nov 15 19:53:44 <kerio> no keyboard
Nov 15 19:53:44 <kerio> :s
Nov 15 19:53:48 <kerio> capacitive touchscreen
Nov 15 19:53:52 <kerio> :s :s :s
Nov 15 19:53:56 <corecode> kerio: actually i'm thinking about tablets
Nov 15 19:54:04 <corecode> i dunno what jolla is up to
Nov 15 19:54:06 <kerio> corecode: yeah, like the n900
Nov 15 19:54:16 <corecode> kerio: nono, larger
Nov 15 19:54:22 <corecode> 7" or 10" tablets
Nov 15 19:54:28 <corecode> running harmattan-esque OS
Nov 15 19:54:33 <corecode> that would be great
Nov 15 19:54:38 <mad_dev> corecode: check wetab
Nov 15 19:54:39 <corecode> hence me asking
Nov 15 19:54:51 <mad_dev> based on meego OS
Nov 15 19:55:03 <corecode> what components are closed and specific to n900/n9
Nov 15 19:55:18 <corecode> i just can't see it
Nov 15 19:56:00 <mad_dev> corecode: http://wetab.mobi/en/product/
Nov 15 19:56:05 <kerio> ~fremantle_closed_packages
Nov 15 19:56:11 <kerio> ~closed_packages
Nov 15 19:56:11 <infobot> closed_packages is, like, https://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages
Nov 15 19:56:29 <tadzik> what package is responsible for the behaviour of a longpress in, for example, file manager?
Nov 15 19:57:35 <corecode> kerio: thanks
Nov 15 19:58:13 <corecode> kerio: but those packages, can't most of them be just used?
Nov 15 19:58:24 <corecode> obviously bt-firmware can't
Nov 15 19:58:32 <corecode> but the calendar?
Nov 15 19:58:54 <kerio> sure, you need the correct libraries though
Nov 15 19:59:10 <kerio> it's a bitch to run binary blobs :)
Nov 15 19:59:28 <corecode> ya
Nov 15 19:59:52 <corecode> but since my n9 can use them...
Nov 15 20:00:01 <kerio> corecode: and i bet that you won't manage to run ICD2 in a sensible way on something that's not nokia hardware
Nov 15 20:00:10 <kerio> and that's a fairly vital part of maemo
Nov 15 20:00:21 <corecode> what's that
Nov 15 20:00:32 <kerio> Internet Connection Daemon
Nov 15 20:00:41 <corecode> ooooh
Nov 15 20:03:13 <kerio> Connectivity?
Nov 15 20:03:19 <kerio> anyway, the thing with the internets
Nov 15 20:03:58 <Drathir> kerio: ok refreshing repos, can i ask what it is cherry?
Nov 15 20:05:05 <kerio> Drathir: it's the package that contains the MyNokia thing
Nov 15 20:05:21 <kerio> once you install openssh you can get a root shell with ssh root@localhost
Nov 15 20:08:55 <Drathir> kerio: backupmenu isnt in application menager need to install from another loaction?
Nov 15 20:09:37 <Drathir> i have only builit in backup
Nov 15 20:10:12 <Drathir> mad_dev: yes also power think to install too
Nov 15 20:12:46 <kerio> Drathir: disable extras (the "maemo.org") repo and enable extras-devel
Nov 15 20:13:07 <tadzik> extras-devel is a superset?
Nov 15 20:13:57 <kerio> tadzik: for all intents and purposes
Nov 15 20:14:30 <tadzik> sure. So things aren't gonna be missing, and ham will sync repos faster, aye?
Nov 15 20:14:32 <mad_dev> Drathir: http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-devel then backup
Nov 15 20:14:41 <kerio> tadzik: no
Nov 15 20:14:42 <Pali> extras ⊆ extras-testing ⊆ extras-devel
Nov 15 20:14:43 <kerio> much, much slower
Nov 15 20:14:52 <tadzik> oh, I mean compared to having both
Nov 15 20:17:13 <cjdavies> what's the installation package for mpd?
Nov 15 20:17:21 <cjdavies> apt claims that it exists in another package
Nov 15 20:17:39 <tadzik> oh, I don't think there's mpd in the repos
Nov 15 20:17:48 <cjdavies> D:
Nov 15 20:17:56 <cjdavies> how am I expected to play music?!
Nov 15 20:18:26 <tadzik> via the music player, of course
Nov 15 20:18:34 <tadzik> I tried to package mpd, it didn't quite work
Nov 15 20:18:45 <tadzik> mpd and pulseaudio on the n900 didn't quite like each other
Nov 15 20:18:49 <cjdavies> guess I default to mplayer :(
Nov 15 20:19:00 <tadzik> why would you do that
Nov 15 20:19:29 <tadzik> btw, while we're at repos, is there any point in having nokia repos enabled now? Ove, Nokia Applications etc?
Nov 15 20:19:35 <cjdavies> what else would I use?
Nov 15 20:19:53 <tadzik> The Music Player application that comes with maemo
Nov 15 20:19:57 <tadzik> or Open Media Player
Nov 15 20:20:29 <tadzik> it's nice for it shuts up when somebody's calling
Nov 15 20:20:47 <cjdavies> hm, suppose
Nov 15 20:21:07 <tadzik> and pauses when you unplug the headphones
Nov 15 20:21:15 <tadzik> (that's omp-only)
Nov 15 20:22:32 <tadzik> and yes, I'm missing mpd too :)
Nov 15 20:22:44 <tadzik> gapless playback, not-being-a-resource-hog...
Nov 15 20:32:42 <kerio> cjdavies: install Open Media Player
Nov 15 20:32:46 <kerio> and uninstall mediaplayer
Nov 15 20:33:14 <kerio> tadzik: ovi is the second thing i disable when i do a fresh install
Nov 15 20:33:21 <tadzik> (the latter) for the sake of more free space?
Nov 15 20:33:22 <kerio> the nokia repos are still useful
Nov 15 20:33:35 <kerio> tadzik: to free up an icon in the menu, too :)
Nov 15 20:33:36 <tadzik> (uninstalling mediaplayer I mean)
Nov 15 20:33:39 <tadzik> hehe
Nov 15 20:33:46 <kerio> also make a copy of the dbus service thing, but make it point to OMP
Nov 15 20:40:00 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: why confuse newbies?
Nov 15 20:40:13 <kerio> cjdavies is not a newbie!
Nov 15 20:40:16 <kerio> he uses linux and stuff
Nov 15 20:40:40 <DocScrutinizer05> what's the big benefit when he installs OMP??
Nov 15 20:40:44 <ZogG_laptop> i use linux and i'm noob :P
Nov 15 20:40:47 <kerio> that he has OMP
Nov 15 20:40:47 <kerio> :)
Nov 15 20:40:54 <DocScrutinizer05> dafaq!
Nov 15 20:40:54 <ZogG_laptop> DocScrutinizer05: sup
Nov 15 20:41:16 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: portrait support
Nov 15 20:41:22 <Drathir> kerio: ok my bad typo mistake in repo addres and dont synchronize packages
Nov 15 20:41:31 <DocScrutinizer05> cjdavies: please don't hop every hoop kerio and others present to you
Nov 15 20:41:34 <kerio> which is actually quite useful
Nov 15 20:41:54 <kerio> cjdavies: remember that hoops are fun
Nov 15 20:42:22 <DocScrutinizer05> cjdavies: I suggest you start just enjoying your device for a few days, after you got the most essential stuff, like backupmenu and maybe CSSU-S
Nov 15 20:44:25 <DocScrutinizer05> Drathir: I'd prefer to see them give you good advice, like "don't use fapman/fam" and "never do apt-get (dist-)upgrade" and "get rid of skype if you don't absolutely need it"
Nov 15 20:45:25 <DocScrutinizer05> don't install speedüpatch/batterypatch!
Nov 15 20:45:51 <DocScrutinizer05> probably don't install auto-disconnect
Nov 15 20:46:29 <DocScrutinizer05> make sure your AP and N900 play together nicely, using power saving mode
Nov 15 20:46:54 <DocScrutinizer05> get cpu load applet
Nov 15 20:47:13 <DocScrutinizer05> - so you always notice when something hogs your CPU
Nov 15 20:47:57 * RST38h does apt-get upgrade with passion
Nov 15 20:48:06 <DocScrutinizer05> I for one found simple brightness applet indispensable
Nov 15 20:48:17 <Drathir> kerio: ok back for second going to use backupmenu...
Nov 15 20:48:23 <RST38h> [as long as you are closely watching what it is trying to install, it is ok]
Nov 15 20:49:04 <DocScrutinizer05> RST38h: needs lots of experience
Nov 15 20:49:20 <RST38h> Well does require some knowledge of what is good/bad for you, yes
Nov 15 20:49:59 <kerio> Drathir: learn to love backupmenu
Nov 15 20:50:06 <kerio> it's *the shit*
Nov 15 20:50:31 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, BM is probably the most useful app ever invented 
Nov 15 20:51:21 <kerio> cjdavies: always remember that DocScrutinizer05 is a grumpy old man that hates all kinds of fun
Nov 15 20:51:27 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: >:C
Nov 15 20:51:30 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, one last "good advice": stay away from nitdroid and multiboot
Nov 15 20:52:37 <DocScrutinizer05> N900 is no android device. If you want an android device, google will help you to find shiny cheap ones
Nov 15 20:53:02 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: there's that xtreamermobile
Nov 15 20:53:38 <kerio> just like a chinese knockoff phone, down to the double sim support, but with an actual community behind it
Nov 15 20:53:39 <DocScrutinizer05> ~maemo-multiboot
Nov 15 20:53:41 <infobot> well, maemo-multiboot is deprecated, and a horrible hack.  PROBLEMS WITH NITDROID/MULTIBOOT? reflash rootfs&kernel aka COMBINED
Nov 15 20:53:43 <kerio> and of course, there's the nexus 4
Nov 15 20:55:42 <Drathir> DocScrutinizer05: yes your advices was very good because i proppably use dist upgrade if i dont know about that from you... thanks one time again...
Nov 15 20:57:28 * cjdavies got burnt by the dist-upgrade thing
Nov 15 20:57:44 <cjdavies> it was a fun learning experience
Nov 15 20:58:46 <kerio> cjdavies: you were an idiot there, though
Nov 15 20:58:59 <kerio> "should i go ahead and remove these 380 packages?" "sure apt, go right ahead"
Nov 15 20:59:06 <DocScrutinizer05> if friggin wiki would work, I'd actually be tempted to start a (community-)effort to set up a beginners guide to maemo fremantle
Nov 15 20:59:34 <cjdavies> kerio: I'm so used to issuing 'apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade' that I just did it without thinking
Nov 15 20:59:43 <cjdavies> normally it doesn't completely shag the system ;)
Nov 15 20:59:50 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe
Nov 15 21:00:06 <cjdavies> I think this channel is the beginners guide ;)
Nov 15 21:00:33 <cjdavies> though I guess not everybody defaults to #<foo> on freenode when they have FLOSS questions like I do...
Nov 15 21:00:52 <kerio> cjdavies: apt-get update && apt-get upgrade works, though
Nov 15 21:01:10 <DocScrutinizer05> 50% of cases
Nov 15 21:01:45 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: what are the 50% that don't work?
Nov 15 21:01:52 <DocScrutinizer05> the point is, it's not at all supported by maemo and Nokia's braindead MP
Nov 15 21:03:03 <DocScrutinizer05> it's basically an incompatible concept
Nov 15 21:06:46 * DocScrutinizer05 waves and goes off enjoying his flu and migraine a bit longer
Nov 15 21:07:36 <tadzik> who can I ask questions related to hildon codebase?
Nov 15 21:08:25 <kerio> tadzik: probably in #maemo-ssu ?
Nov 15 21:09:58 <Drathir> kerio: DocScrutinizer05 i very like backupmenu a lot of options and fast...
Nov 15 21:10:01 <tadzik> possibly
Nov 15 21:10:27 <kerio> Drathir: always make rootfs+optfs backups
Nov 15 21:10:31 <kerio> separate backups aren't really worth it
Nov 15 21:10:41 <user___> DocScrutinizer05: ping
Nov 15 21:10:48 <tadzik> and store them outside of the device
Nov 15 21:11:08 <tadzik> I need to learn that too ;)
Nov 15 21:17:31 <Drathir> kerio: yes i do i prefer all with one date...
Nov 15 21:18:57 <Drathir> ke next thing ssu
Nov 15 21:20:21 <kerio> Drathir: your choice if you want cssu stable or cssu testing
Nov 15 21:26:19 <tadzik> if you want to notice it, go testing :)
Nov 15 21:31:17 <Drathir> kerio: tadzik yes testing more up to date...
Nov 15 21:31:56 <tadzik> also more bleeding-edge
Nov 15 21:32:08 <tadzik> with all advantages and disadvantages, I guess
Nov 15 21:32:33 <tadzik> I moved to testing because of all those "Shiny new feature X! Only in -testing"
Nov 15 21:34:20 <DocScrutinizer05> actually cssu-s is as "up to date" as cssu-t. Just a few packages have not made it to cssu-s yet, since they aren't considered stabe enough
Nov 15 21:34:27 <Drathir> ok cssu installed reboot and backup
Nov 15 21:43:42 <Drathir> kerio: cssu installed what next?
Nov 15 21:43:48 <tadzik> thumb!
Nov 15 21:43:50 * tadzik hides
Nov 15 21:43:54 <kerio> Drathir: now explore
Nov 15 21:43:59 <DocScrutinizer05> basically cssu-s is meant to make no difference whatsoever regarding user experience, it should be basically indistinguishable from maemo fremantle stock. CSSU-T otoh comes with all the extended functionality *enabled* by default, and optional packages installed instead of omitted
Nov 15 21:44:05 <kerio> start doing things by yourself
Nov 15 21:44:36 <tadzik> set up scratchbox, do stuff. That's fun
Nov 15 21:44:38 <kerio> give yourself a couple of days to learn what you like and what you dislike
Nov 15 21:44:47 <kerio> then change the things you dislike
Nov 15 21:45:11 <Drathir> translations.ini error
Nov 15 21:45:18 <DocScrutinizer05> now that's a pretty good advice
Nov 15 21:45:31 <Drathir> restore to default or fix?
Nov 15 21:46:02 <DocScrutinizer05> err, that's this borked transitions.ini tweaker. Don't use it
Nov 15 21:46:44 <DocScrutinizer05> Drathir: or which app does say this?
Nov 15 21:49:04 <tadzik> CSSU Features
Nov 15 21:49:12 <tadzik> I noticed that too, and I had default transitions
Nov 15 21:49:16 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, forget that
Nov 15 21:52:29 <DocScrutinizer05> there are two transitions.ini "editors", one in powerbutton-menu, the other in system-menu
Nov 15 21:53:08 <DocScrutinizer05> one conmplains and suggests to "fix" transitions.ini - that's nonsense and you shouldn't use that program
Nov 15 21:53:15 <kerio> actually, the one that installs itself in the powerbutton menu also adds itself to settings and the application menu
Nov 15 21:53:21 <DocScrutinizer05> the other one works semi-decent
Nov 15 21:53:51 <kerio> Drathir: on TMO there's a premade transitions.ini with really smooth animations
Nov 15 21:54:25 <MrPingu> kerio: which one do you mean of the 1000 transitions.ini posted on TMO?
Nov 15 21:54:36 <kerio> MrPingu: the one that says "smooth"
Nov 15 21:54:59 <Drathir> DocScrutinizer05: ok cssu feautures but to fast opened...
Nov 15 21:57:03 <MrPingu> That means: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=78591 or  http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=80409 or  http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=83000
Nov 15 21:57:29 <tadzik> the "fastest" are quite nice
Nov 15 21:57:35 <tadzik> and are actually fast, I didn't expect that :)
Nov 15 21:57:55 <kerio> MrPingu: the most recent one
Nov 15 21:58:05 <kerio> actually maybe not
Nov 15 21:58:10 <kerio> the "fastest" one
Nov 15 21:58:31 <tadzik> the "fastest" just trade eye-candy for responsiveness
Nov 15 22:00:51 <MrPingu> I just halved al values manually + no blur, smooth as butter
Nov 15 22:01:03 <MrPingu> rotation over z-axis
Nov 15 22:03:26 <ShadowJK> kerio; heh, with the same settings on pc and on n900 I get as slow (or fast) speeds either way.
Nov 15 22:03:59 <RiD> lol. I talked to the wrong estel in freenode :(
Nov 15 22:04:05 <RiD> what was his nickname on freenode?
Nov 15 22:04:11 <MrPingu> estel_
Nov 15 22:04:21 <RiD> always with a "_" ?
Nov 15 22:04:28 <MrPingu> Yes
Nov 15 22:04:42 <RiD> ok. So i guess he never registered in freenode.
Nov 15 22:04:46 <RiD> I talked with the wrong estel :(
Nov 15 22:05:23 <ShadowJK> kerio; though when accessing stuff locally on N900 you  might also trigger other traffic, which makes it a bit slower. For huge data trransfers on n900 I usually drop swappiness a bit first. It hurts interactivity/responsiveness but improves throughput when the emmc can do just ne thing without getting distracted
Nov 15 22:06:58 <ShadowJK> But in general, when I run same kernel version on PC as on N900, and have same settings, I get same speeds either way
Nov 15 22:07:07 <ShadowJK> In fact at first I got smaller speeds with PC-N900 because I had tweaked N900 for flash storage and PC was left on defaults optimized for harddrives
Nov 15 22:12:12 <cjdavies> did somebody earlier say that 'apt-get upgrade' is fine?
Nov 15 22:12:31 <cjdavies> but not 'apt-get dist-upgrade' (which I learned the hard way)
Nov 15 22:14:24 <tadzik> I once mentioned apt-get here and got shouted at ;)
Nov 15 22:15:47 <cjdavies> the phone essentially runs debian as far as I can tell & the app manager is just a GUI to apt
Nov 15 22:15:53 <RiD> apt-get
Nov 15 22:15:54 <RiD> shout
Nov 15 22:16:16 <cjdavies> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPT
Nov 15 22:16:20 <cjdavies> that loud enough?
Nov 15 22:16:37 <RiD> ay pee tee getch.
Nov 15 22:16:38 <user___> apt-get upgrape is ok if you have sharp eyes.
Nov 15 22:16:51 <RiD> grape
Nov 15 22:17:03 <RiD> i like grape, vi... vi something
Nov 15 22:17:16 <vi___> but dont do it if you have devel enabled.
Nov 15 22:17:23 <cjdavies> ah
Nov 15 22:17:35 <cjdavies> I should probably read the wiki on devel more thoroughly
Nov 15 22:17:39 <vi___> there is some shitty packages in there.
Nov 15 22:17:53 <vi___> cjdavies: nah, thats just to scare teh noobz.
Nov 15 22:18:35 <cjdavies> wait, so apt-get upgrade is okay with devel enabled as long as I actually check what it is upgrading before blindly hitting [Y]
Nov 15 22:18:48 <vi___> correct!
Nov 15 22:19:04 <vi___> upgrading battle of wesnoth to devel=cool
Nov 15 22:19:09 <tadzik> \o/
Nov 15 22:19:15 <tadzik> if only n900 could handle it :P
Nov 15 22:19:17 <RiD> whenever it asks you to upgrade water to beer, accept
Nov 15 22:19:20 <cjdavies> I suppose that's no different to any other system, as you should always check what's going to happen first...
Nov 15 22:19:26 <vi___> upgrading broken libc in devel=uncool :(
Nov 15 22:19:27 <cjdavies> RiD: how about beer to vodka?
Nov 15 22:19:41 <RiD> water to wine. Jesus mode
Nov 15 22:19:55 * cjdavies will hopefully get a stylus in the mail tomorrow, which if anything will prevent fluff getting into the hole
Nov 15 22:20:13 <RiD> lol
Nov 15 22:20:17 <tadzik> tehehehe
Nov 15 22:20:21 <RiD> you'll get a stylus that does NOT match the n900
Nov 15 22:20:31 <cjdavies> it claims to be for a N900
Nov 15 22:20:33 <cjdavies> with any luck
Nov 15 22:20:36 <RiD> claims
Nov 15 22:20:38 <RiD> ;)
Nov 15 22:20:45 <cjdavies> I paid a whole £1.69 to get one that was in the UK
Nov 15 22:20:50 <tadzik> which reminds me, I need to polish mine
Nov 15 22:20:53 <cjdavies> as opposed to 99p for one in Hong Kong
Nov 15 22:20:55 <tadzik> I can hear it scratching the screen
Nov 15 22:20:59 <cjdavies> >.<
Nov 15 22:20:59 <RiD> o_o
Nov 15 22:21:24 <RiD> someone has a legit english / international whatever qwerty keyboard for n900?
Nov 15 22:21:29 <RiD> for sell, of course
Nov 15 22:21:50 <tadzik> what do you have instead?
Nov 15 22:21:58 <RiD> why did they have to ruin n900's locally, with terrible Spain+Portuguese layout in 1. I don't need a dedicated key for "ñ". I never use that in my language!
Nov 15 22:22:01 * RiD goes to a corner and starts crying
Nov 15 22:22:21 <tadzik> heh, I need to open virtual keyboard to write my name ;)
Nov 15 22:22:26 <tadzik> I usually don't bother and asciify it
Nov 15 22:22:42 <RiD> lol
Nov 15 22:22:51 <RiD> hello, my name is #%()bh"&$/, what about yours?
Nov 15 22:22:58 <tadzik> hehe
Nov 15 22:23:16 <tadzik> Sośnierz is probably equally bad for those w/o utf8
Nov 15 22:23:26 <tadzik> not that they don't deserve it
Nov 15 22:23:28 <RiD> Å›
Nov 15 22:32:38 <cjdavies> it took me years before I realised that screen actually has an option to force UTF8
Nov 15 22:33:07 <tadzik> I didn't know. It usually Just Works for me
Nov 15 22:33:36 <cjdavies> it usually just works for me, but every now & then I'll set up a new box wrong & it'll be on some ISO job instead of UTF8
Nov 15 22:33:46 <cjdavies> doesn't harm aliasing it to 'screen' anyway
Nov 15 22:33:52 <cjdavies> at least, I don't think it does ;)
Nov 15 22:35:23 <RiD> yes
Nov 15 22:36:36 <FIQ> [23:17:35] <cjdavies> I should probably read the wiki on devel more thoroughly
Nov 15 22:36:52 <FIQ> Basically it's like having testing activated in archlinux
Nov 15 22:37:17 <tadzik> hehe
Nov 15 22:37:26 <FIQ> i.e. you don't use it unless you want to help bug test stuff
Nov 15 22:37:47 <FIQ> oh wait.. you didn't run arch
Nov 15 22:38:08 <tadzik> testing in archlinux is a bit like adding more pure alcohol to your vodka
Nov 15 22:38:16 <tadzik> "don't use unless you want to get drunk"
Nov 15 22:38:25 <FIQ> lol :p
Nov 15 22:38:57 <FIQ> cjdavies: sorry, I mixed you up with another guy in here
Nov 15 22:39:41 <FIQ> ...or did I? no idea, i'm tired ._.
Nov 15 22:39:43 * FIQ logs
Nov 15 22:41:42 <DocScrutinizer05> RiD: you might be able to find qwerty keymat
Nov 15 22:42:17 <DocScrutinizer05> it's what I did since äöü annoyed me just as much
Nov 15 22:43:55 <FIQ> how did you disable the stupid hold key=fn key thing?
Nov 15 22:44:03 * Drathir ssu onboard successfully upgraded... ^^
Nov 15 22:44:27 <FIQ> ~jrtools
Nov 15 22:44:28 <infobot> methinks jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
Nov 15 22:45:07 <RiD> DocScrutinizer05 the thing is i don't want some chinese one where the light does not shine through
Nov 15 22:47:21 <FIQ> there we go
Nov 15 22:48:35 <Drathir> now my favorite mtr ntpd mc htop
Nov 15 22:56:14 <FIQ> so why does dist-upgrade want to remove pretty much everything anyway?
Nov 15 22:56:38 <Drathir> looks like now more smoother than default clean flashed...
Nov 15 22:57:43 <FIQ> also why do Ihave to use HAM for installing cssu...
Nov 15 22:58:17 <RiD> HAMburguer
Nov 15 22:58:19 <RiD> burger*
Nov 15 22:58:36 <tadzik> haha
Nov 15 22:58:48 <tadzik> HAMburger would be slow food
Nov 15 22:59:08 <FIQ> i don't like HAM and it like to annoy me with infinite loading times
Nov 15 22:59:13 <FIQ> *likes
Nov 15 22:59:41 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: it's the way CSSU insatllation works, take it
Nov 15 23:00:16 <DocScrutinizer05> I mean, it's a one-time event. and it doesn't need attention
Nov 15 23:01:13 <FIQ> "one-time"
Nov 15 23:01:19 <DocScrutinizer05> infinite loading times mainly caused by luser enabled extras-devel
Nov 15 23:01:32 <FIQ> upgrading means a trek to it again :p
Nov 15 23:01:37 <FIQ> but i get your point
Nov 15 23:01:47 <FIQ> and yeah, but it's still long with it disabled
Nov 15 23:01:57 <RiD> perfect time to drink something
Nov 15 23:02:27 <DocScrutinizer05> and actually with most recent CSSU-T you get an improved HAM, and eventually you'll get a CSSU HAM that's mandatory to handle CSSU optional packages
Nov 15 23:02:31 <RiD> and now your automatic breathing mode is disabled
Nov 15 23:02:45 <FIQ> hmm ok sounds good
Nov 15 23:03:01 <FIQ> RiD: ......
Nov 15 23:03:31 <RiD> innocent phrase with such power... doesn't make sense in our world
Nov 15 23:03:38 <Drathir> FIQ: better alternative to HAM ? console?
Nov 15 23:03:54 <FIQ> Drathir: sure, but cssu requires you to use HAM
Nov 15 23:04:04 <FIQ> if you want to install it correctly
Nov 15 23:04:18 <DocScrutinizer05> Drathir: there's no better alternative to HAM. You can use apt-get install to install random pkgs
Nov 15 23:04:28 <FIQ> "do a backup of your system" pff, this system is recently backed up
Nov 15 23:05:06 <FIQ> or rather, restored from a backup recently, which technically means recently backed up :p
Nov 15 23:05:31 <DocScrutinizer05> Drathir: beware though, some pkgs simply don't install properly via apt-get install
Nov 15 23:06:09 <FIQ> what does HAM do that apt can't?
Nov 15 23:06:16 <Drathir> DocScrutinizer05: fastapp or sonthing be there when buyed phone anybady know that app?
Nov 15 23:06:21 <FIQ> i.e. *why* don't they install correctly?
Nov 15 23:06:45 <DocScrutinizer05> faster app manager aka fapman
Nov 15 23:06:49 <DocScrutinizer05> deprecated!
Nov 15 23:06:57 <FIQ> also, meh
Nov 15 23:07:13 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: for example when they want to pop up a requester on H-D
Nov 15 23:07:17 <vi___> FIQ: HAM can sgutdown hildon home, like changing run levels.
Nov 15 23:07:19 <FIQ> was going to disable devel from doing some stuff yesterday
Nov 15 23:07:43 <FIQ> that's not easy when HAM hides repo list... hate when it does
Nov 15 23:07:57 <FIQ> iirc there was a solution but I forgot all about it
Nov 15 23:08:29 <vi___> FIQ: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon.list
Nov 15 23:08:33 <FIQ> ty
Nov 15 23:08:42 <FIQ> hmm
Nov 15 23:08:50 <FIQ> how does HAM disable repos?
Nov 15 23:08:58 <FIQ> just placing a # before it?
Nov 15 23:09:15 <FIQ> want to do it the same way in case stuff break otherwise
Nov 15 23:09:16 <vi___> It is just like a normal sources.list
Nov 15 23:09:31 <vi___> FIQ: just # out the lines
Nov 15 23:09:58 <FIQ> yeah i know it is, but wanted to know in case HAM disabled in a special way
Nov 15 23:09:59 <FIQ> vi___: ok
Nov 15 23:10:35 <Drathir> DocScrutinizer05: now time to power kernel and yours apps...
Nov 15 23:11:26 <FIQ> for example the "name" field seems non-existent in the file
Nov 15 23:11:35 <FIQ> so it stores stuff in another way too
Nov 15 23:11:47 <Drathir> how about synaptic?
Nov 15 23:12:01 <vi___> Drathir: even worse.
Nov 15 23:12:22 <Drathir> good to know...
Nov 15 23:12:24 <FIQ> Drathir: there's no synaptic gui, and if there was, it would be even slower
Nov 15 23:12:33 <FIQ> than HAM
Nov 15 23:12:49 <FIQ> try it under easy-debian and you'll understand what I mean
Nov 15 23:13:25 <vi___> In my opinion fapman is fine.
Nov 15 23:13:49 <vi___> just dont use it for system updates.
Nov 15 23:13:50 <FIQ> vi___: iirc it does some strange things and is discouraged in here
Nov 15 23:13:55 <DocScrutinizer05> fapman is known to fsck up your system, sooner or later
Nov 15 23:14:22 <vi___> it comes with no warrenty.
Nov 15 23:14:25 <FIQ> isn't fapman simply a "correct" frontend to apt?
Nov 15 23:14:35 <DocScrutinizer05> fapman is just a graphic frontend to apt-get, unlike HAM which does actually do a few more things
Nov 15 23:14:38 <FIQ> i.e. it shouldn't do worse stuff than apt
Nov 15 23:14:49 <vi___> FIQ: I use fapman.  IDGAF.
Nov 15 23:14:52 <tadzik> autoremove is no worse than apt, yes :)
Nov 15 23:15:19 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, and autoremove is what fapman does, ebetually
Nov 15 23:15:29 <FIQ> why?
Nov 15 23:15:34 <DocScrutinizer05> NFC
Nov 15 23:15:40 <tadzik> good intentions, probably
Nov 15 23:15:53 <vi___> gtg
Nov 15 23:15:54 <vi___> gn
Nov 15 23:15:55 <FIQ> should be easy to fix
Nov 15 23:15:57 <vi___> :q
Nov 15 23:16:09 <tadzik> good vi user
Nov 15 23:16:10 <DocScrutinizer05> dafaq I'd fix fapman when there's apt-get
Nov 15 23:16:32 <FIQ> well there's still people who use fam
Nov 15 23:16:56 <DocScrutinizer05> I either use apt-get for normal stuff, or occasionally I use HAM for 'critical' stuff
Nov 15 23:17:11 <FIQ> why's autoremove bad? i did that occasionally earlier
Nov 15 23:17:21 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: as mentioned above, it's absolutely deprecated, esp for CSSU
Nov 15 23:17:22 <FIQ> didn't have any problem with it
Nov 15 23:17:44 <FIQ> DocScrutinizer05: fair enough
Nov 15 23:18:16 <DocScrutinizer05> CSSU maintainers CBA to maintain fapman and fix it to work for CSSU
Nov 15 23:19:38 <DocScrutinizer05> basically fapman is a pretty poor idea. If you want to improve on user experience with application manager, fix HAM instead of creating a poorly designed buggy clone
Nov 15 23:20:12 <RiD> i see you hate it
Nov 15 23:21:01 <DocScrutinizer05> fapman designed on the premise to leave out stuff that's considered 'useless' from HAM. The consideration seems to be based on a poor understanding of what HAM does
Nov 15 23:21:47 <DocScrutinizer05> RiD: how can't you hate an app named fapman?
Nov 15 23:21:58 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-P
Nov 15 23:22:12 <FIQ> this happened before too...
Nov 15 23:22:14 <RiD> i actually think that's what makes me like it
Nov 15 23:23:07 <FIQ> DocScrutinizer05: Attempted to do step 5 of cssu install, but HAM simply says "Process failed" (translated from swe, might not be exact wording)
Nov 15 23:23:56 <FIQ> and there's no icon
Nov 15 23:26:21 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: /join #maemo-ssu
Nov 15 23:27:16 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: I gather you used fapman, and/or other non-supported methods to update system
Nov 15 23:27:46 <FIQ> DocScrutinizer05: not since last reflash
Nov 15 23:27:56 <DocScrutinizer05> then that's pretty strange
Nov 15 23:28:06 <DocScrutinizer05> never had that before
Nov 15 23:28:14 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway ask in righ chan
Nov 15 23:31:20 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: there are a few packages that will conflict with CSSU(-enabler). You have to ask the CSSU maintainers about how to properly debug stuff, there are actually ways to do cssu installation via shell/apt, and they probably give better feedback about problems encountered
Nov 15 23:40:34 * Drathir do restart to load new kernel
Nov 16 00:02:47 <Drathir>  booted ok
Nov 16 00:49:42 <Ken-Young> How are the maemo.org servers going to be paid for when Nokia stops supporting them?
Nov 16 01:03:26 <devilinside> is there anyway to use default vkb with easy debian or transparent vkb with n900?
Nov 16 01:07:16 <devilinside> ????
Nov 16 01:17:43 <FIQ> so I can empty all stored password or none... what about if I want to remove just one...?
Nov 16 01:19:41 <devilinside> i think there is a password manager for microB
Nov 16 01:21:08 <FIQ> sorry I wasn't specific but yes I do mean microB
Nov 16 01:52:22 <DocScrutinizer05> Ken-Young: board will raise funds
Nov 16 01:52:55 <FIQ> hmmmm
Nov 16 01:53:16 <DocScrutinizer05> wait, I got a bookmark for that iirc
Nov 16 01:53:41 <Ken-Young> DocScrutinizer05, Thanks.   I'll contribute, if I actually see some announcement outlining how to do that.   I can't pitch in a whole lot, but I'll do something at least.
Nov 16 01:54:10 <FIQ> "bounce - Playable 3D technology demo for N900" there's one thing I don't like with this thing
Nov 16 01:54:25 <FIQ> it shows the true 3d potential of n900
Nov 16 01:54:45 <FIQ> now how many games using 3d does n900 have? :p
Nov 16 01:54:46 <SpeedEvil> :-( 
Nov 16 01:54:53 <SpeedEvil> bounce was awesome
Nov 16 01:55:08 <FIQ> yeah it was
Nov 16 01:55:26 <FIQ> (apart from taking up like 10% of installable space)
Nov 16 01:55:45 <DocScrutinizer51> Ken-Young: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Chrome_URLs might help?
Nov 16 01:56:56 <Ken-Young> DocScrutinizer05, I don't understand - what does that have to do with contributing money to fund maemo.org servers?
Nov 16 01:56:58 <FIQ> SpeedEvil: I once played the futuristic thing to see what happened if you got past uh
Nov 16 01:57:05 <FIQ> 1k in score or something like that
Nov 16 01:57:12 <FIQ> the UI glitched :p
Nov 16 01:57:38 <SpeedEvil> :-) 
Nov 16 01:57:46 <DocScrutinizer51> Ken-Young: sorry, was for FIQ 
Nov 16 01:58:01 <DocScrutinizer51> password manager
Nov 16 01:58:28 <FIQ> oh
Nov 16 01:59:37 <DocScrutinizer51> sorry, thought I got a better link
Nov 16 02:00:53 <FIQ> well I don't understand much of that
Nov 16 02:01:46 <FIQ> or, I *understand*
Nov 16 02:01:54 <FIQ> but don't see how it helps me
Nov 16 02:12:56 <Drathir> maybe someone know why default player dont steram media? any kind of bug?
Nov 16 02:17:43 <mad_dev> Drathir: i think mplayer has online streaming functionality
Nov 16 02:34:23 * ShadowJK has streamed shoutcast and youtube with default player before
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 16 02:59:58 2012