**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 09 02:59:58 2012 Dec 09 02:59:59 because nokia removed the concept of system packages from apt Dec 09 03:00:02 fix dependencies, profit! Dec 09 03:00:12 ..why? Dec 09 03:00:16 @ merlin1991 Dec 09 03:00:33 if we "fix" dependencies apt suddenly will think that ALL packages (except for the user installed ones) are candiates for removal Dec 09 03:00:44 so they removed the point of system packages and reinvented it on its' own? Dec 09 03:00:50 ah Dec 09 03:01:02 sounds like dist-upgrade Dec 09 03:01:52 I'd really *really* like to read the internal Nokia whitepaper with the rationale for that fsckng MESS Dec 09 03:02:22 can't you do some kind of scripts that reintroduces system packages? Dec 09 03:02:31 like a modified apt or whatever is needed Dec 09 03:02:40 it should be possible allbeit tedious Dec 09 03:02:45 anyway not even without any MP cssu-T and cssu-thumb repo would play together nicely Dec 09 03:03:04 FIQ: +1 Dec 09 03:03:53 I frankly admit I still haven't grok'd it what's this system-package stuff all about Dec 09 03:04:59 basically all we need is a way to mark all the essential-to-the-system packages are "do not remove unless specifically asked to" Dec 09 03:05:11 i.e. the dependencies of mp-*-pr Dec 09 03:05:30 shouldn't be that hard Dec 09 03:05:38 jonwil: that's what I thought as well Dec 09 03:05:43 on regular debian apt considers a few pacakges "system (might be called different)" packages which are kept installed unless specifically uninstalled, that is done via package metadata Dec 09 03:06:05 yeah I guess the problem is that none of the Maemo packages are marked as "system-essential" or whatever it is Dec 09 03:06:06 also Dec 09 03:06:32 why Nokia went for mp rather than just the system package stuff is beyond me Dec 09 03:06:33 jonwil: yeah, the support for it is missing in apt AND most (c)nokia packages don#t have the marking Dec 09 03:06:59 if you fix this, wouldn't it make apt more realible in general? Dec 09 03:07:03 jonwil: easy they depend on verisons=something to roll out distinct pr releases where they know the base system is 100% of type X Dec 09 03:07:41 since they are whimps Dec 09 03:07:43 ;-P Dec 09 03:08:16 real men dare to handle proper ">=" relations for system packages Dec 09 03:08:47 remembering also that they need to support different firmwares Dec 09 03:08:52 "4 upgraded, 7 newly installed, 376 to remove and 33 not upgraded." Dec 09 03:08:56 let's do this! Dec 09 03:08:58 i.e. the different region versions Dec 09 03:09:08 ..or not Dec 09 03:09:13 jonwil: there is a different mp in each regional repo Dec 09 03:09:26 yeah that's what I mean Dec 09 03:09:36 mp-fremantle-generic-pr Dec 09 03:09:43 mp-fremantle-generic-pr, mp-fremantle-203-pr, mp-fremantle-002-pr, mp-fremantle-003-pr Dec 09 03:09:49 mp-fremantle-community-pr for cssu Dec 09 03:09:56 and then the regional one Dec 09 03:09:56 s Dec 09 03:09:58 hence why they did it with mp stuff rather than system so they could install the relevant mp package and have it pull the right region bits Dec 09 03:09:59 yeah, that Dec 09 03:10:28 maybe an idea is to fix APT in CSSU so it supports this feature Dec 09 03:10:36 you don't have the "generic" repo enabled when you have a different region image flashed Dec 09 03:10:53 and then add a separate thing that says "if a package is listed in this list, pretend that its metadata has "system-essential set" Dec 09 03:11:06 i.e. to account for the fact that we cant re-package all the Nokia blobs Dec 09 03:11:09 with the flag set Dec 09 03:11:12 jonwil: we'd still have to adapt ham Dec 09 03:11:23 HAM is open source is it not? Dec 09 03:11:39 we're happy about all patches ;) Dec 09 03:12:07 but so far everyone who did anything to ham (including me) came back with a headache Dec 09 03:12:52 anyone who makes ham load faster would get my full support Dec 09 03:13:02 :3 Dec 09 03:13:56 well ham loads fast, it's apt-worker that takes forever in the background ;) Dec 09 03:14:05 meh Dec 09 03:14:39 also Dec 09 03:14:48 if you ever remove mp-thingy Dec 09 03:15:10 mm Dec 09 03:15:11 nvm Dec 09 03:15:15 *hmm Dec 09 03:15:44 well the cssu-enabler (in the more recent verisons) marks most dependencies of the nokia pr as user installed Dec 09 03:15:57 so if you remove the mp, you have a good chance everything stays Dec 09 03:17:04 what's the difference between upgrade and dist-upgrade? Dec 09 03:17:16 besides the latter breaking the os on maemo Dec 09 03:17:18 dist-upgrade is allowed to install new packages Dec 09 03:17:21 and remove others Dec 09 03:17:29 mhm Dec 09 03:17:38 upgrade only tries to upgrade everything you currently have to newer versions Dec 09 03:17:43 why does it want to remove the whole os on maemo? Dec 09 03:17:53 (pretty much Dec 09 03:17:55 ) Dec 09 03:18:33 i guess there's some kind of dependency conflict Dec 09 03:18:34 well something somewhere with a newer versions conflicts with a core package and then the dependency chain is broken and it wants to autoremove the rest Dec 09 03:20:00 also dist-upgrade removes any packges that are not a dependency of something, user installed or system essential ;) Dec 09 03:21:20 I don't see any problem with marking *ALL* as user-installed, then nuke friggin MP for good and never come back Dec 09 03:23:14 and while we're at it, change all "==" dependencies to ">=" (except those on a blacklist) Dec 09 03:23:15 hmm Dec 09 03:23:34 i'm not sure but i think something went wrong during cssu update Dec 09 03:23:43 libgcc1 (4.2.1-4maemo13+0m5 => 4.7.2-0+cssu0) Dec 09 03:23:56 seems that i have an old libgcc1 still Dec 09 03:24:40 btw the main culprit for dist-upgrade going mental is the gcc 4.6 in extras-devel Dec 09 03:31:49 FIQ: I might be wrong, but I think cssu-thumb comes with a new glibc for that other (poll?) bug Dec 09 03:33:33 FIQ: then there's also been some widespread misconception about version numbering colation and "-" vs "+" char iirc Dec 09 03:33:59 is there a valid reason to have glibc in extras-devel? Dec 09 03:34:22 not really Dec 09 03:37:20 why not get it removed from extras then to avoid the problems? Dec 09 03:48:36 well, my standard advice: never do a apt-get upgrade or apt-get dist-upgrade or apt-get autoremove Dec 09 03:52:57 I'd expect more than just glibc to cause problems when indicriminately updating everything against extras-devel Dec 09 04:15:23 but as a general rule there shouldn't be updates in extras-devel of stuff bound to MP Dec 09 04:16:38 neither in extras-devel nor any of the other extras* repos, aiui Dec 09 04:17:19 after all that's what cssu got invented for Dec 09 08:39:28 FIQ: there's a way to toy around with apt priorities to automatically stay on cssu-thumb instead of moving to cssu-testing Dec 09 08:40:06 FIQ: anyway, the upgrade to -Tmaemo6 should've installed a bunch of thumb packages, you're only missing hildon-desktop and something else Dec 09 08:53:24 what is the best mapping software for the n900 currently? Dec 09 08:54:10 most of the map stuff ended up not quite finished and I pretty often just use google maps, but the browser is slow Dec 09 08:57:34 Gear: maybe maep Dec 09 08:58:46 is there a stable version of it? Dec 09 09:01:02 idk Dec 09 09:08:20 Gear maep is pretty nice and quick, but recently I've just started up modrana if I need a map (since I've pre-downloaded the tiles in it) Dec 09 09:10:21 also cloudgps is fancy but for some reason for me doesn't enable gps when I start it, so I also need to run something like gpsdata in bg Dec 09 09:12:35 yeah I had trouble with cloud gps Dec 09 09:12:48 maep doesn't seem to search for anywhere Dec 09 09:13:06 it tells me where I am, but I can usually tell that by looking at a street sign Dec 09 09:51:42 <|thunder> is maemo still being used in modern/new hardware ? Dec 09 09:52:37 <|thunder> or is the n900 the fastest thing it runs on ? Dec 09 10:08:21 Gear: try marble Dec 09 10:08:48 |thunder: the latter Dec 09 10:18:11 if by maemo you mean the actual maemo fremantle with all of its quirks and closed bits, then no - it'll only ever run on the n900 Dec 09 10:22:12 DocScrutinizer05: N900 doesnt mount on android, http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1302648&postcount=632 Dec 09 10:26:46 trumee: it's probably because of a lack of partition table Dec 09 10:27:01 kerio: ah, i see Dec 09 10:27:31 kerio: i though emmc was partitioned in N900? Dec 09 10:27:39 it is Dec 09 10:27:45 but only mmcblk0p1 is exported Dec 09 10:27:48 not the whole of mmcblk0 Dec 09 10:29:24 i'm not sure how you'd fix that Dec 09 10:29:42 g_file_storage is somewhat rigid, it wants a single file to export Dec 09 10:33:13 well, /dev/mmcblk0 is also a single file ;-) Dec 09 10:34:16 looks like i am stuffed then. Dec 09 11:02:18 DocScrutinizer05: yeah but if you export mmcblk0 you have to be damn sure not to change anything in the other partitins Dec 09 11:02:20 partitions Dec 09 11:02:30 (i'm not even sure it's possible, anyway) Dec 09 11:02:59 hmm, yeah Dec 09 11:02:59 i mean, usb mass storage does export my whole sd, including the partitions i'm using as swap Dec 09 11:03:07 but i never actually tried writing on one of those :) Dec 09 11:03:31 home and swap being mounted might forbid export Dec 09 11:03:42 DocScrutinizer05: nah, it exports fine Dec 09 11:04:22 i bet (read: i hope) g_file_storage returns IO error when the usb host tries to write to a partition that's already mounted Dec 09 11:05:19 haha, why do you hope / think so? Dec 09 11:05:22 anyway, it's weird that android doesn't support usb superfloppies Dec 09 11:05:29 indeed Dec 09 11:05:52 DocScrutinizer05: because the kernel locks down swap partitions tightly, usually Dec 09 11:06:23 yeah, but mmcblk0 is a raw phy dev, with no idea about the partitions on it Dec 09 11:06:32 hm :( Dec 09 11:06:51 then i really want ke-recv to be configurable, so at least i don't risk exploding my system Dec 09 11:07:07 i still haven't *found* the place where it decides "ok, i'll export mmcblk0p1 and mmcblk1" Dec 09 11:07:23 so unless there's a sector lock on every sector, you won't see anything hindering you to nuke your home ext3 or swap partition Dec 09 11:08:53 I think ke-recv passing those parameters to osso-export-foo.sh Dec 09 11:09:24 what exactly is ke-recv anyway? Dec 09 11:09:43 jonwil: a bad copy of autofs, or something Dec 09 11:09:43 a process that listens to several event sources Dec 09 11:10:07 similar to udev, in a certain way Dec 09 11:10:19 ok, so its basically there to listen to a bunch of hardware and kernel triggers and then react somehow? Dec 09 11:10:27 yep Dec 09 11:10:31 aiui Dec 09 11:10:56 jonwil: the same thing is doable in a better way by configuring udev Dec 09 11:11:02 but alas, nokia is nokia Dec 09 11:11:04 see ke-recv-test Dec 09 11:11:23 at least ke-recv is open source so we can mess with it if we need to :) Dec 09 11:11:33 kerio: afaik not really, since udev not listening to kevents Dec 09 11:12:39 Usage: ke-recv-test [/dev/mmcblk(1|0)] cb - close battery cover signal ob - open battery cover signal f - format device r - rename device l - send device locked signal u - send device unlocked signal at - send USB attached signal de - send USB detached signal s - swap on (ext-)MMC si - swap on (int-)MMC t - swap off (ext-)MMC ti - swap off (int-)MMC e - check device ej - eject USB ec - cancel eject USB p - Dec 09 11:12:40 enable PC Suite c - enable charging mode m - enable USB mass storage Dec 09 11:20:54 jonwil: which cssu actually did already Dec 09 11:21:03 :) Dec 09 11:21:25 ask Pali Dec 09 11:23:31 ke-recv is daemon which listening HAL events from dbus and run some commands Dec 09 11:23:48 it mounting MyDocs, SD card and usb flash devices Dec 09 11:24:24 and also umount them when back cover is detached Dec 09 11:24:35 the last thing is really, really stupid, btw Dec 09 11:24:49 once the backcover is detached, you can't write to the usd anymore Dec 09 11:24:58 any attempt at unmounting it is just silly Dec 09 11:25:42 Is that back-cover thing a kernel thing or a hardware thing? Dec 09 11:25:50 jonwil: yes Dec 09 11:26:02 kernel or hardware? Dec 09 11:26:25 the last time i asked, nobody was sure Dec 09 11:26:58 it could be a thing in the usd kernel module Dec 09 11:34:47 backcover is visible in kernel as GPIO pin and kernel automatically disconnect SD card (decrease some voltage) Dec 09 12:10:39 incorrect, I'm sure it's sw Dec 09 12:13:01 and iirc I was sure last time you asked Dec 09 12:18:19 cat /sys/class/mmc_host/mmc0/cover_switch Dec 09 12:18:30 see mmc0(!) Dec 09 12:36:54 DocScrutinizer05: so can we disable the cover switch? Dec 09 12:37:12 yes Dec 09 12:42:09 DocScrutinizer05: cover_switch has perms 0444 Dec 09 12:44:40 DocScrutinizer05, now I'm tunning usbmode.sh script for switching to usb host mode and I found one problem... Dec 09 12:45:08 more times switching to host mode failing because udev trying to load some usb driver which causing some errors Dec 09 12:45:47 DocScrutinizer05, is good idea to pause udev when switching to host mode and resume it after usb device is visible? Dec 09 12:46:06 udevadm control --stop_exec_queue and udevadm control --start_exec_queue Dec 09 12:54:59 Pali: I'd rather augment the udev rule that kicks in Dec 09 12:55:27 DocScrutinizer05, and with my usb hub I see other problem. when I'm not using hub for about 1min kernel autosuspend usb bus and after I want to do with hub it cannot resume it Dec 09 12:55:47 in dmesg I see errors: usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -19 Dec 09 12:55:57 hmm, that's kinda strange Dec 09 12:56:14 dunno why it autosuspends Dec 09 12:56:18 but if I doing something with hub (and kernel not enter usb into suspend) it is ok Dec 09 12:56:28 yeah Dec 09 12:56:28 because usbcore doing autosuspend automatically Dec 09 12:56:38 there's a usb suspend mode, I know Dec 09 12:56:42 what do you think about disabling usb autosuspend? Dec 09 12:57:04 should already been done Dec 09 12:57:27 I thought we did take care about it back when we patched kernel Dec 09 12:57:34 obviously we missed sth Dec 09 12:58:06 usbcore is statically linked into zImage, so only option to change autosuspned is via sysfs: /sys/module/usbcore/parameters/autosuspend Dec 09 12:58:17 I'm going to try to find some doc about that file Dec 09 12:58:23 cat on maemo show me value 2 Dec 09 12:59:39 I can't recall I'd have seen any 60s period for suspend in musb_hdrc.c and relatives Dec 09 13:00:31 usbcore.autosuspend= [USB] The autosuspend time delay (in seconds) used for newly-detected USB devices (default 2). This is the time required before an idle device will be autosuspended. Devices for which the delay is set to a negative value won't be autosuspended at all. Dec 09 13:00:37 on maemo it is 2 Dec 09 13:01:06 anyway I guess you can kick it out of source completely, I don't know right now why we'd need it Dec 09 13:01:57 autosuspend is part of usbcore Dec 09 13:02:04 we cannot detele usbcore module Dec 09 13:02:24 I didn't suggest to delete the whole module Dec 09 13:02:55 $ echo -1 > /sys/module/usbcore/parameters/autosuspend Dec 09 13:02:58 fixed that problem Dec 09 13:04:19 ok Dec 09 13:10:20 DocScrutinizer05, and I have other problem. when I connect usb hub to n900 and start usb host mode, hub is detected Dec 09 13:10:48 if I connect hub with connected usb device before starting usb host mode when both device and hub are detected after usb host mode is enabled Dec 09 13:11:14 but if I plug usb device into hub which was already detected in usb host mode, it will break usb host mode Dec 09 13:11:26 again errors: usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -71 Dec 09 13:11:42 and then lsusb does not see hub too Dec 09 13:19:56 hm, my usb mouse is working, only one usb flash device & usb ethernet card causing that problem Dec 09 13:20:37 btw, after unplugging usb from n900 is needed to rmmod g_file_storage to deregister usb device from system Dec 09 13:20:50 unloading g_file_storage doing that job Dec 09 14:00:11 hi, someone knows anything about how to activate EAP-SIM support for N900 ? Dec 09 14:01:08 Hello, anyone tried if Etymotic Research headsets work for N900? Models like mc2, hf2,.... Dec 09 14:04:29 peetah: I doubt it is possible Dec 09 14:04:42 peetah: it requires support in the modem code. Dec 09 14:05:04 SpeedEvil: and I guess that depends on closed source code ? Dec 09 14:05:11 Hmm, it must support a 3.5 mm/ 4-conductor stereo phone plug. Dec 09 14:05:15 I suppose, N900 does? Dec 09 14:05:21 4 conductor Dec 09 14:06:26 peetah: closed, encrypted, signed Dec 09 14:06:35 nice :) Dec 09 14:07:39 pdanek: find out the part number for the headset. now, find out if it's compatible with that headset, or with phones supporting it. I think all Nokia 4 pin dumb headsets are the same pin out Dec 09 14:07:42 SpeedEvil: so no hope on this part then, thanks for answering Dec 09 14:08:01 peetah: probably not, unless it's alreadymnsauppirted. Dec 09 14:08:21 I thought that this was a network side authentication Dec 09 14:13:52 SpeedEvil: thanks, but it seems that Nokia headsets are 3 pin only :O Dec 09 14:14:07 sorry, Nokia jack inputs I mean Dec 09 14:14:20 no, they aren't Dec 09 14:14:34 they are stereo plus mic Dec 09 14:14:38 4 wore Dec 09 14:14:42 wire Dec 09 14:15:13 great, so N900 has 4 pin, right? Dec 09 14:15:18 yes Dec 09 14:15:30 it means, it should support most of universal 1 button headsets Dec 09 14:15:34 but there are two 4 pin standards Dec 09 14:15:39 aha Dec 09 15:54:52 question : nokia n900 vs nokia e7 vs lumia 800 ? Dec 09 15:55:09 lol Dec 09 16:11:51 New version of usbmode: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1302811#post1302811 Dec 09 16:21:31 Pali: this will automatically work fine with non-disk stuff? Dec 09 16:22:13 Sicelo, it always worked and working for non-disk devices too Dec 09 16:23:00 ok. i'm still on KP50. i'll upgrade and install usbmode Dec 09 16:39:56 Pali: one more question... usbmode won't complain if i connect a device+power using a y-cable? Dec 09 16:40:01 Pali: bme 1.0 should really add an empty /etc/bme-disabled fle Dec 09 16:40:02 *file Dec 09 16:40:55 Sicelo, before usb host mode will be established you need to disconnect power from y-cable Dec 09 16:41:29 Pali: pnatd should be stopped on G_NOKIA_REMOVE, so maybe wait a couple of seconds before killing it? Dec 09 16:41:32 but usbmode support host mode with charging (see screenshot) Dec 09 16:42:29 hmm, ok. i'll look at it some more Dec 09 16:43:04 kerio, I'm not sending KILL signal, so daemon should handle it Dec 09 16:49:42 hi. Would you sugest to buy Nokia N9? is there some Maemo similar OS? Dec 09 16:52:48 i would Dec 09 16:54:35 but "used" for 200� ? Dec 09 16:54:45 markinfo: meh, it's quite unlike a n900 Dec 09 17:45:29 its quite unlike the N900 Dec 09 17:45:34 but its also quite like the N900 Dec 09 17:45:40 and nothing else on the market comes closer to the N900 than the N9 Dec 09 17:45:49 so yes, a total recommendation Dec 09 17:46:24 isn't it a dead end? Dec 09 17:46:38 So what Dec 09 17:46:52 Doesnt make the device any less usable Dec 09 17:47:01 And again, there's nothing else on the market like it:| Dec 09 17:47:10 Unless you want to go with lol openmoko Dec 09 17:47:35 ...what's that? Dec 09 17:48:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko Dec 09 17:49:01 No longer supporting phones, huh. Dec 09 17:49:07 And yes, I can google too :3 Dec 09 17:49:13 Why ask then ? :) Dec 09 17:49:21 For a more personal response. Dec 09 17:49:52 Internet people seem to have forgotten that they were there once :D Dec 09 17:49:52 That would just get you a biased responce on the futility of such shitty hobby projects that rarely yield any desirable results Dec 09 17:49:57 But i dont want to hurt any feelings, see Dec 09 17:50:08 Well Dec 09 17:50:24 "lol openmoko" isn't exactly neutral either. Dec 09 17:50:31 ;) Dec 09 17:50:33 Which is why I asked :) Dec 09 17:51:25 Well, it looks ugly. Dec 09 17:53:11 well. But there is question if to buy Nokia N9 for 200� or samsung Galaxy S for 100�. Dec 09 17:53:24 the samsung will just leave you with android Dec 09 17:53:39 if you are a N900 user, Android will most likely piss you off Dec 09 17:53:41 and N9? What is there? Dec 09 17:53:48 N9 runs Maemo6 Dec 09 17:53:58 the n9 runs meego/harmattan Dec 09 17:54:06 dont believe the marketing Dec 09 17:54:14 its just maemo6 that got mutilated with meego apis Dec 09 17:54:49 I tried Android - but it looks chaotic - especialy closing programs is a nightmare. Dec 09 17:55:04 'multitasking' in general is a bit weird on Android Dec 09 17:55:18 What? I thought Android at least had full control over applications, multitasking, etc... Dec 09 17:55:26 ah, ninja'd Dec 09 17:55:29 android has no real multitasking like the n900 or n9:) Dec 09 17:55:44 it's more like suspending apps Dec 09 17:55:55 N95 is multitasking enough :/ Dec 09 17:56:43 never heard about Nokia N95 Dec 09 17:56:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N95 Dec 09 17:56:58 >.> Dec 09 17:57:07 Android has real multitasking Dec 09 17:57:19 But it is not part of their mainstream development model. Dec 09 17:57:37 YOu have to explicitely ask the system for it Dec 09 17:58:29 "Work the way you should, bloody thing" Dec 09 17:58:30 In reality that means almost no application does real multitasking Dec 09 18:00:17 All applications that need multitasking, do multitasking Dec 09 18:00:35 That includes audio players, GPS loggers, and SSH server Dec 09 18:00:36 Thats incorrect Dec 09 18:00:46 Minimizing a game on android basically closes the game Dec 09 18:00:49 Browsers don't -need- multitasking, but the hell I demand that. Dec 09 18:00:58 and getting the game on the forefront again makes android reload the entire game Dec 09 18:01:05 where is maemo6? http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_and_Maemo6 ??? Dec 09 18:01:10 Aoyagi: You can only "demand" something if you show the money Dec 09 18:01:20 I can show them my old N95. Dec 09 18:01:29 Aoyagi: For Android, that would be in the range of tens of millions Dec 09 18:01:44 Bah, stupid Android :D Dec 09 18:01:51 Android is the Windows95 of our current times Dec 09 18:01:53 Lava: YOu cannot minimize a game on Android. It has no minimize button Dec 09 18:02:05 RST38h: minimize as in switch to another task Dec 09 18:02:13 you can minimize on android Dec 09 18:02:16 you just suspend all apps Dec 09 18:02:18 Anyways, Android is basically one huge trashcan, indeed Dec 09 18:02:27 its incoherent Dec 09 18:02:37 i had to downgrade from 4.2 to some 4.1 CM10 Dec 09 18:02:41 But you do not seem to understand how that trashcan works, even Dec 09 18:02:43 4.2 brought all kinds of brokenness Dec 09 18:02:55 Thats the point Dec 09 18:03:01 If its not operating like a 'normal' PC Dec 09 18:03:07 Then I dont care:) Dec 09 18:03:18 Android is not operating like a 'normal' PC, so it's junk to me Dec 09 18:03:35 Don't need the technical understanding of its inner workings for that Dec 09 18:03:36 The more I hear about it the more it sounds like S40. Dec 09 18:04:07 Except with massive fanbase and "app" market. Dec 09 18:04:29 I'm not so sure about this 'fanbase' Dec 09 18:04:40 Most of them are just people who wanted a smartphone and thought Apple's prices were too high Dec 09 18:04:44 Well I see them everywhere. Dec 09 18:04:51 "android is teh best" they say Dec 09 18:04:55 Of course Dec 09 18:05:01 They also say their local soccerteam is the best Dec 09 18:05:08 And they say my N9 is shit because it runs Windows Dec 09 18:05:18 W8? Dec 09 18:05:31 N9 doesn't run windows Dec 09 18:05:38 * Lava_Croft rolls his eyes Dec 09 18:06:00 I'm presuming the answer to that would be "not by default". Dec 09 18:06:09 heh Dec 09 18:06:57 Come to think of it, I haven't read any good Win8 bashing articles for a while... Dec 09 18:07:01 Probably one advantage N9 has would be that it doesn't freeze the world when you switch app? Dec 09 18:07:07 * Lava_Croft is on Win8 atm Dec 09 18:07:20 Its nearly exactly like Win7 Dec 09 18:07:35 If you use Classic Shell, sure. Dec 09 18:07:52 even without it its a nobrainer to switch away from metro and just use classic desktop all day Dec 09 18:07:57 keyboard shortcuts enough Dec 09 18:08:29 Well, some people are used to the Start menu. Dec 09 18:08:35 most of the win8 bashing must really come from people who havent used it, because with my everyday usage, its just windows7 with weird notifications:) Dec 09 18:08:54 I use Classic Shell, I like the start menu:) Dec 09 18:08:58 hah Dec 09 18:09:14 But people make it sound like Windows8 will break everything Dec 09 18:09:22 and you have to re-learn how to use your Windows PC etc Dec 09 18:09:37 All MS's own fault tho Dec 09 18:09:41 Win8 is schizophrenic Dec 09 18:10:58 Well, I didn't feel any need to move forward from 7 yet. Dec 09 18:11:12 I -did- feel an urge to move back to XP many times though... Dec 09 18:11:44 why Dec 09 18:11:49 XP is an insecure pos Dec 09 18:11:52 O ye. Dec 09 18:12:00 Downgrading from 7 to XP borders on insanity Dec 09 18:12:09 Unless you lack the hardware to run 7, of course Dec 09 18:12:13 But I hate "Networks and sharing center" a LOT, even more I hate Ribbon. Dec 09 18:12:25 I dont hate software, its just software Dec 09 18:12:32 :< Dec 09 18:12:39 Alright, I hate using it. Dec 09 18:12:41 Ribbon is better when you can customize it Dec 09 18:12:52 I could customize stuff before and even better. Dec 09 18:12:53 Overall it bothers me less than the hell of nested menus Dec 09 18:13:08 mreh Dec 09 18:13:09 And at least in Office i can customize the ribbon Dec 09 18:13:23 Well, that's why I refuse to leave office 2003 :D Dec 09 18:13:23 I dont use the windows file explorer orso Dec 09 18:13:33 I guess that has ribbon too Dec 09 18:13:38 No. Dec 09 18:13:49 On 8 it does Dec 09 18:13:56 But I use Clover, due to tabs Dec 09 18:14:12 What? Dec 09 18:14:13 http://ejie.me/clover-wings-for-explorer Dec 09 18:14:30 one day of this and you will never use the vanilla Explorer in Windows again Dec 09 18:14:33 Yes, I meant the 2003 on Win8 Ribbon thing Dec 09 18:14:45 Ah Dec 09 18:14:50 office 2003 is ribbon-less, yeah Dec 09 18:15:04 Heh, I wondered :D Dec 09 18:15:55 There's one plus to Win8 tho Dec 09 18:15:59 I can play Wordfeud on it:) Dec 09 18:16:29 Yeah, that's a deal-sealer. xD Dec 09 18:16:39 Pali: wow. thanks for usbmode :-) Dec 09 18:16:52 The real deal-sealer is the ads inside certain Metro apps Dec 09 18:17:04 for example, Wordfeud also has a section for chatting with your opponent Dec 09 18:17:17 everytime Wordfeud loads another ad in the lower right of the screen, it removes focus from the chat area Dec 09 18:17:20 Ads? OS with ads in it? Hnnnngh Dec 09 18:17:23 so you were typing and blam it quits working Dec 09 18:17:26 not the OS, the app Dec 09 18:17:32 Oh, yes, on Metro Dec 09 18:17:39 Right, makes sense. Dec 09 18:18:07 however, i would suggest you give us an option to enable/disable its presence on the status menu. personally i only like it there if it's active. i would prefer nothing if it's not active ( Pali ) Dec 09 18:31:02 Sicelo: i'd actually like it to be merged with the battery applet and the usb mode selector Dec 09 18:33:59