**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 08 02:59:59 2013 Mar 08 03:03:16 ALRIGHT! I seem to be fully fixed. Thanks be to you, DocScrutinizer05 Mar 08 03:03:39 yw, thanks for testing Mar 08 03:18:35 im actually really excited about the ubuntu phones Mar 08 03:18:47 i wonder if they will have xtterm and a gnu userland Mar 08 03:18:50 like maemo Mar 08 03:19:03 Macer: it's an Android userland Mar 08 03:19:18 lol, gnu userland Mar 08 03:19:19 wow really? thats no fun Mar 08 03:19:28 heh Mar 08 03:19:39 that's canonical, Macer! Mar 08 03:19:52 :) Mar 08 03:20:03 well.. i just mean it would be nice to have the arm repo Mar 08 03:20:10 similar to maemo Mar 08 03:20:23 although it was interesting to hear theyre dropping xorg Mar 08 03:20:33 for the other method... cant remember Mar 08 03:20:39 Mir. Mar 08 03:20:40 interesting? :-o Mar 08 03:20:47 the one all linux should have swapped to years ago Mar 08 03:20:52 yes Mar 08 03:20:57 it is a goood thing Mar 08 03:21:13 suuure Mar 08 03:21:18 leave it to linux to cling to obsolete things :) Mar 08 03:21:19 I have no idea why Canonical's going with Mir instead of Wayland Mar 08 03:21:22 like gtk vs qt Mar 08 03:21:42 no matter how they try to dress up gtk it still looks like win 3.1 Mar 08 03:22:05 qt based stuff looks so much cleaner Mar 08 03:22:17 no matter what they do to qt>3, it feels like coded by fools Mar 08 03:22:38 maybe... but it still looks nicer ;) Mar 08 03:23:02 i mean look at most of the bloated python stuff out there nowadays Mar 08 03:23:25 seems to get the job done and doesnt seen to be going anywhere Mar 08 03:23:42 seem Mar 08 03:23:43 honestly, for the few hours my embedded device can run on qt until battery empty, I wouldn't want less than that Mar 08 03:24:23 heh... i suppose, but that is a matter of refinement Mar 08 03:24:24 still need a base Mar 08 03:24:24 , and like i said, it Mar 08 03:24:24 isnt lik Mar 08 03:24:40 wtf? Mar 08 03:24:40 sorry Mar 08 03:25:00 it isn't like maemo seems to be expanding to newer platforms any time soon Mar 08 03:25:22 and last i recall there was a big push to qt in maemo as well Mar 08 03:25:40 that doesn't make it better Mar 08 03:25:40 and symbian seems to last a very long time running qt based stuff Mar 08 03:26:09 maybe not, but more people will buy new than look for something used to try something with Mar 08 03:26:30 :shrug: Mar 08 03:26:33 ie: you wont find an overabundance of new users clamoring for an old n900 Mar 08 03:26:39 how is that relevant for me? Mar 08 03:27:25 heh. i guess it isnt if you want to run a platform that only you have and dev on after the rest of the n900s fade out of existance Mar 08 03:27:50 my friends ask me where to get a new N900. I don't need to impress them with newest model iPhone or whatever Mar 08 03:28:36 well, while your philosophy sounds like suicide to avoid natural death Mar 08 03:28:39 and your answer is probably "they dont make them anymore but..." Mar 08 03:29:05 so to a new user that is most likely a turnoff Mar 08 03:29:23 again, how's that relevant? Mar 08 03:29:26 not to mention after the support gathered from what is left of the community... Mar 08 03:29:45 and the companies providing free hosting give up doing it Mar 08 03:30:18 it will essentially spell the end of maemo without any community appeal or harsh community reduction Mar 08 03:30:32 who don ates if they have nothing to do nate for? Mar 08 03:30:39 yeah, and you going old and lame and can't see anymore the brilliant UI of your shiny new ubuntu phone. Honestly, what are we talking about? Mar 08 03:31:27 it is a step in the right direction, maemo should try to jump on the boat with its devs and support Mar 08 03:31:41 bullshit Mar 08 03:31:47 take that elsewhere Mar 08 03:31:50 it means a lot of the maemo base can be integrated Mar 08 03:32:00 we heard this tune since around 3..4 years now Mar 08 03:32:04 like the battery saving techniques etc Mar 08 03:32:41 and what has happened in 3-4 years other than about 4 abandoned devices and pulled support? Mar 08 03:32:48 fine! go and integrate it wherever you like. Maybe come back and present the result, and you might actually lure a few of us over on your side Mar 08 03:33:14 with maemo on more than nokia, or at least the good bits it continues on and contributes to the ultimate goal Mar 08 03:33:29 pff Mar 08 03:33:33 ultimate goal Mar 08 03:33:37 bwahaha Mar 08 03:33:41 fine. your choice to be hardheaded Mar 08 03:33:48 to each their own Mar 08 03:34:11 your choice is to come here and try to teach us what to do Mar 08 03:35:03 im looking at it from an economics point of view, wasnt telling you what to do, but making a suggestion Mar 08 03:35:14 no customers = no money and support Mar 08 03:35:23 who cares? Mar 08 03:35:31 isn't my money Mar 08 03:35:35 * Macer facepalm Mar 08 03:35:40 yeah Mar 08 03:35:49 that is a big point. it isnt your money Mar 08 03:36:15 so honestly what you're trying to sell to us here? Mar 08 03:37:08 im not selling you anything... i am just saying that the work maemo has done can contribute to a continued existance of a real linux device Mar 08 03:37:29 instead of fading into non existance, it could be a community revival Mar 08 03:37:35 smae old lame "why do you bother about telepathy on maemo? come over to meego and do it better on that platform, it's the future!" tune? Mar 08 03:37:36 with... more hardware to work with Mar 08 03:38:24 maybe... but better than sitting around doing nothing but trying to sell Hummer SUVs when nobody wants them anymore ;) Mar 08 03:38:31 coming in halfway through here, though I can't help but see Macer's point >_> Mar 08 03:38:31 xprism: yes, SHR got ported to N900 Mar 08 03:38:41 maemo is great Mar 08 03:38:48 it would be a shame to see it die Mar 08 03:39:00 it's already dieing now... <_< Mar 08 03:39:09 no real infusion in sight Mar 08 03:39:41 right now ubuntu runs on android devices Mar 08 03:39:47 Macer: you can sell whatever you want, to whomever you want. But I don't buy your "take the alternative" preaching. since there is no alternative Mar 08 03:39:56 actual devices coming soon. not just the n9 like meego Mar 08 03:40:10 i am not saying take the alternative Mar 08 03:40:21 but to disregard the opportunity ... Mar 08 03:40:27 even if you dont jump onboard Mar 08 03:40:44 it would still be unwise not to even consider the ability to find new hardware Mar 08 03:41:09 simplu due to either pride or hardheadedness Mar 08 03:41:18 simply Mar 08 03:41:27 Macer: and maemo will die from guys like you suggesting we all bin our N900 and move on to something else, since "maemo on N900 is dieing anyway, so why stay here?" Mar 08 03:41:41 im not saying that either Mar 08 03:41:47 n900 is a great device Mar 08 03:41:53 if it doesnt break on you Mar 08 03:42:01 Mine ain't broke Mar 08 03:42:04 but the simple fact is... it isnt being made anymore Mar 08 03:42:07 I love my n900 Mar 08 03:42:35 SO WHAT? Mar 08 03:42:42 plus... who is to say you cant bring some of the ubuntu code to the n900 as well? Mar 08 03:42:45 There will most likely always be parts for it Mar 08 03:42:52 * Macer sighs Mar 08 03:42:53 too bad for you that yours broke and you can't find a new one Mar 08 03:42:54 very well Mar 08 03:42:59 i can Mar 08 03:43:12 no point in arguing with a stone head Mar 08 03:43:23 patience is a virtue Mar 08 03:43:52 Macer: you're not arguing, you can't even make a clear statement what's your point Mar 08 03:44:17 if you cant find the point then there is no point in continuing the conversation Mar 08 03:44:24 like i said... to each their own Mar 08 03:45:01 (( it is a step in the right direction, maemo should try to jump on the boat with its devs and support)) how the fsck would that look like? Mar 08 03:45:10 youre a dev, i majored in economics.. not cs.. and see no good endgame to maemo Mar 08 03:45:23 but you made your position clear Mar 08 03:45:35 so.... the end. Mar 08 03:46:58 yeah. the end. Like I said above, you're free to port the FOSS bits of maemo to wherever you like. And after you've done, come back here and present your achievements. That's the *only* way to convince somebody in here to follow you Mar 08 03:47:10 but i will leave you with... maemo4 maemo5 meego.. ultimate limitations to awesome mobile operating systems: viable continuing hardware Mar 08 03:47:34 no need Mar 08 03:48:32 well, council will not declare maemo dead and suggest every maemo community member gets an ubuntu phone now and start to port maemo to it Mar 08 03:49:02 didnt say that either Mar 08 03:49:03 so I really don't see what's all your bickering all about Mar 08 03:49:08 but that is how you see it Mar 08 03:49:17 so be it Mar 08 03:49:32 if you cant see the obvious vision.. then live blindly Mar 08 03:49:54 not everybody who can't see your visions is blind Mar 08 03:50:19 s/visions/delusions/ Mar 08 03:50:20 DocScrutinizer05 meant: not everybody who can't see your delusions is blind Mar 08 03:50:20 Unless I can packet inject I would never switch Mar 08 03:50:34 Snafu777: lol! Mar 08 03:50:43 fair enough :) Mar 08 03:50:45 N900 is one of a kind Mar 08 03:50:54 Only phone of its kind in the world Mar 08 03:52:29 Until somebody invents a kernel that works for packet injection on another cell phone, this community will be around for a long long time Mar 08 03:52:31 maybe later when someone ports ubuntu to it you will still be able to do it lol Mar 08 03:52:49 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders why it's always those who don't own a (working) N900 who come here ans suggest "maemo should jump there, maemo should go this way..." Mar 08 03:52:52 Why would I want Ubuntu? Mar 08 03:53:11 I have a Linux environment on my phone tht works perfect Mar 08 03:53:16 DocScrutinizer05: you misunderstand, having had 2 the n900 and maemo is awesome Mar 08 03:53:17 as if maemo was a person Mar 08 03:53:25 Granted, I hate the NAND concept but its easy to bypass Mar 08 03:53:36 DocScrutinizer05: herd mentality? They think they should drag you out of your comfort too so you suffer with them :p Mar 08 03:54:01 thedead1440: sounds exaclty like that to me, yeah Mar 08 03:54:06 lol.. but one must consider the future of maemo, which in your case is relicing it to the n900 instead of seeing a way to expand it to other hardware Mar 08 03:54:26 Macer: there IS NO future of maemo Mar 08 03:54:32 wow Mar 08 03:54:34 lol Mar 08 03:54:36 very well Mar 08 03:54:46 that sums it up right there Mar 08 03:54:47 Why would you? Unless u have a chipset that supports injection.... Viva 802.11 Mar 08 03:55:30 now i see your point Mar 08 03:55:38 Me? Mar 08 03:55:42 no Mar 08 03:55:47 DocScrutinizer05 Mar 08 03:56:22 Snafu777: i remember SGS2 supporting injection drivers FWIW; i've played around with disconnecting some connections and intercepting data via the same WiFi network at home on my S2 Mar 08 03:56:50 Can u reliably inject? Mar 08 03:56:56 Can u reliably do monitor mode Mar 08 03:56:57 well then DocScrutinizer05 you will hear no more of this type of talk from me. you should have just said that in the very beginning heh Mar 08 03:57:03 Can you run airbase ng Mar 08 03:57:20 The n900 is very unique Mar 08 03:57:47 maemo will stay the way it's now for several years on. And eventually some parts like hildon-desktop might get ported to other platforms. There's no second life for maemo though, on any new hw Mar 08 03:58:35 like i said.. you made your point Mar 08 03:58:42 there wasn't even a maemo future on meego devices Mar 08 04:02:06 Snafu777: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1282900 the S2 iirc is the only other phone that uses the same WiFi chip as the N900 hence the similar possibilities. And I'm not telling you to switch but widening your view of alternatives that do the same thing Mar 08 04:04:14 That sounds like MITM stuff Mar 08 04:04:20 Not packet injection DDR Mar 08 04:04:25 dude rather Mar 08 04:06:24 thedead1440?? Mar 08 04:06:32 the same developer has packet injection too; you have to donate though first just like the MITM stuff. I only paid for MITM as i wanted to test if it really works on a droid. Mar 08 04:07:14 i tried this out like iirc 4months back; maybe you want to read up to see how reliable it is Mar 08 04:07:36 thedead1440, do you recall where one can grab fremantle scratchbox virtual image? Mar 08 04:07:40 tablet.dev seems down Mar 08 04:08:11 Estel_: Mar 08 04:08:20 http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/maemo-dev-env-downloads/ Mar 08 04:09:03 just add skeiron.org/ to any url and its the same thing except for repos which are skeiron.org/repo/ Mar 08 04:10:43 Also Estel_ mirrors wont remain frozen; they would sync with new rmo once its up on its feet. i'm sure merlin would do the same too. the sync is off as you don't want to hammer something thats still not fully up Mar 08 04:12:12 thedead1440, thanks Mar 08 04:12:17 np Mar 08 04:12:29 btw, what is the reason for syncing repos with rmo? Mar 08 04:12:40 all the time, I mean, when it's working reliably? Mar 08 04:12:49 (instead of syncing every week, for example) Mar 08 04:13:00 don't we trust its reliability? Mar 08 04:13:05 so that they are up-to-date Mar 08 04:13:19 are things really stable as of now? Mar 08 04:13:28 sure, that's good point, I'm just curious if it won't keep many people from switching back to new rmo Mar 08 04:13:53 no once everything is 100% done ofcourse skeiron would go hidden or whatever Mar 08 04:14:01 * Estel_ nods Mar 08 04:14:10 that makes sense Mar 08 04:14:18 * Estel_ just glaned chanlog Mar 08 04:14:18 skeiron wasn't supposed to last even till end of January Mar 08 04:14:26 I won't wase my money for guys to bitch about it Mar 08 04:14:30 waste even Mar 08 04:14:33 lol @ Macer, every week he is here and try to sell us some device Mar 08 04:14:41 mostly non-existing ones Mar 08 04:14:44 its thanks to DocScrutinizer05 who said not to let it go down and keep maintaining it Mar 08 04:15:04 and of course thanks to brkn for maintaining it ;) Mar 08 04:15:11 last time it was android, (existing), before firefox os :P Mar 08 04:15:38 btw, does maemo plan to host things like those dev bits mirrored at skeiron? Mar 08 04:16:13 if maemo gets all the go-aheads required from Nokia of course it'll host *everything* Mar 08 04:16:14 we would like to, but it's pretty unclear if Nokia is willing to allow Mar 08 04:17:01 * thedead1440 ideally wonders what happened to Macer's FOIA request... Mar 08 04:17:04 after all the domain ends in nokia.com Mar 08 04:18:26 btw tabletsdev.maemo.org been the stage for tablets-dev.nokia.com Mar 08 04:18:28 the nokia go-ahead is what I'm worried about Mar 08 04:18:36 not that they would like to say "no" Mar 08 04:18:41 I'm worried about silence Mar 08 04:19:45 Estel_: only HiFo have a proper idea of what's exactly going on with Nokia afaik; I don't think even Council know all about the discussions but i could be wrong though Mar 08 04:20:03 nemein took it down due to "detected security issueas" Mar 08 04:20:05 hifo have idea about it? optimist :) Mar 08 04:20:41 thedead1440: no, your're not wrong Mar 08 04:20:46 thedead1440, thanks anyway for patiently explaining, I'm out of those formalities loop, kinda Mar 08 04:21:21 Estel_: I read Council meeting logs and you are on that chan too so its just reading logs instead of being in loop :p Mar 08 04:21:56 question from totally different barrel... lets say that I would like to have full dev enviromnent (but for maemo only) on device - so developing for N900 on n900. I could even dedicated separate partition for big bits. Any caveats? Mar 08 04:22:26 I must admit that council meetings logs were not in my circle of interest since ages, with one exception, once :P Mar 08 04:22:34 thats why I'm out of this loop Mar 08 04:22:56 I'm on that channel, btw? oh right, I am. Mar 08 04:23:01 lol Mar 08 04:23:32 proxy bouncer, so personally I forget :p Mar 08 04:25:04 if you read the logs you would understand maybe half of Doc's own struggles ;) He's working on this stuff almost like 20hours a day. Mar 08 04:25:09 as for developing, of course I'm setting up vm on desktop, but I would like being able to do so while travelling with N900 Mar 08 04:25:21 noticed that Mar 08 04:25:46 and kudos and respect for that, while spanking for other things :P Mar 08 04:25:59 so give him a break instead of spoiling his remaining 4 hours :p Mar 08 04:26:23 :P need to spoils it, only one way to put him into sleep Mar 08 04:26:36 lol Mar 08 04:26:52 other that singing lulababies, which is quite pervertic. Mar 08 04:27:18 perversive* Mar 08 04:29:04 i wouldn't want to be in his shoes of being replying to $Rob while arguing here for something trivial and at the same time facing queries from $tech_staff on access etc... Mar 08 04:30:24 Estel_: is there something like the Harmattan SDK chroot for developing on the N900? Maybe that could help you out Mar 08 04:31:42 Estel_: i meant something like that: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84193 Mar 08 04:33:07 called easydeb Mar 08 04:35:58 it it this by same dev (humble): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=71546 Mar 08 04:36:17 s/it it/is it/ Mar 08 04:36:17 thedead1440 meant: is it this by same dev (humble): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=71546 Mar 08 04:50:59 SUDSER Mar 08 04:53:01 anyone happen to know how much more ram kernel-power uses? I'll highly doubt I'll use ntfs, ipv6, isofs, etc.; might have to build my own kernel if I don't want them? Mar 08 04:54:26 many of those are modules Mar 08 04:54:36 that'd be good Mar 08 04:55:12 ask pali Mar 08 04:55:43 so far nobody ever complained about KP's RAM-usage ;-) Mar 08 04:55:52 I was a bit concerned with "booting from other media ext4, xfs, reiserfs" which implies statically compiled, but perhaps they ware in an initramfs or something and can be rmmodded Mar 08 04:56:27 err, the fs probably are built in Mar 08 04:57:17 while 150K or so for xfs isn't much to 256MB,... it is a good chunk of RAM. Mar 08 04:57:27 anyway KP needs to fit into NAND kernel partition Mar 08 04:58:03 sure it's compressed Mar 08 04:58:48 but honestly I guess there are other mem-hogs that are way worse than any KP Mar 08 04:59:32 ext4 269830 0 Mar 08 04:59:45 hm? Mar 08 04:59:48 well, it adds up. Mar 08 05:00:14 that's the x86 size of ext4fs memory footprint Mar 08 05:01:16 :shrug: on other half of scale you get rid of ext3 driver Mar 08 05:01:40 I guess Mar 08 05:01:55 true, is possible to upgrade the ext3 to ext4 Mar 08 05:02:29 I just don't think I'll use xfs. I hope nfs is a module Mar 08 05:06:22 At least there's no ACPI interpreter :D Mar 08 05:08:19 Mem: 245540k total, Mar 08 05:08:26 on stock kernel Mar 08 05:09:02 that would be a good comparison right there. Mar 08 05:10:10 262144K = 256MB, even the stock kernel burns a lot of ram, so I don't think kp overall couldn't be that much worse Mar 08 05:11:23 x86 target for fun: Mem: 250132 (with acpi interpreter) Mar 08 05:11:36 (also 256MB) Mar 08 06:39:55 ~botsnack Mar 08 06:39:55 DocScrutinizer05: aw, gee Mar 08 06:48:07 Macer: you actually think that ubuntu moving to Mir is a good thing? what the fuck Mar 08 06:58:29 hi Mar 08 06:59:10 the video1 cam isn't very sensitive, right? Mar 08 06:59:45 i mean, it's very dark. is there a way to increase sensitivity? Mar 08 07:00:17 not really Mar 08 07:00:48 not really means? Mar 08 07:01:22 means it's simply too small and sits "behind sunglasses" even Mar 08 07:02:18 you can increase exposure time I guess, but that's not resulting in significantly better pictures Mar 08 07:02:41 would it be much better if i would drill a hole? Mar 08 07:05:25 the cam is normaly used as a sensor for correcting the display brightness. right? Mar 08 07:13:41 no Mar 08 07:14:04 there is another sensor for this job? Mar 08 07:14:09 yes Mar 08 07:14:14 wow Mar 08 07:17:35 tx0h: you can actually see it, if you angle the n900 against a light Mar 08 07:17:45 one is the proximity sensor, the other is the light sensor Mar 08 07:17:55 all on the side of the front camera Mar 08 07:19:51 the ALS is really in the corner, next to cam Mar 08 07:20:21 the other apperture more direction earpiece is the prox sensor Mar 08 07:20:43 the n900 is still a better phone Mar 08 07:23:07 but why did they build such a weak front cam? for video conf it's really unuseable,isn't it? Mar 08 07:24:21 meh Mar 08 07:25:02 :-) Mar 08 07:25:07 it worksforme Mar 08 07:25:19 but i don't know if it's nicocam that's doing some magic to the image Mar 08 07:25:25 ...i am, however, directly facing a window Mar 08 07:26:33 i took this line from the mirror prg: gst-launch v4l2src device=/dev/video1 ! ffmpegcolorspace ! gamma gamma=2.0 ! videoflip method=4 ! xvimagesink Mar 08 07:28:54 i can't find nicocam in the repository Mar 08 07:29:15 it's the camera app in cssu testing Mar 08 07:29:34 oh, i'm still with stable :-) Mar 08 07:35:27 Damn, my n900s fully charged battery was drained during the night :( Mar 08 07:36:03 n900-dk_: was it connected to a wifi network that stopped existing? Mar 08 07:36:07 aka did your router reboot Mar 08 07:36:23 no,wifi always online Mar 08 07:37:35 I just understand, why I see this issue now - it has always been able to handle a day or so on fully charged bat Mar 08 07:38:09 s/just/just dont/ Mar 08 07:38:09 n900-dk_ meant: I just dont understand, why I see this issue now - it has always been able to handle a day or so on fully charged bat Mar 08 07:39:19 n900-dk_: i had that same issue due to swapping batteries Mar 08 07:39:39 battery eye might help, probably just not trained correctly Mar 08 07:39:55 it would steadily decrease then drop 20% Mar 08 07:40:10 in a vertical line Mar 08 07:40:26 also, i had a similar issue with a poor widget Mar 08 07:40:39 i believe the apnews one Mar 08 07:40:51 which would eat the batter life up Mar 08 07:40:56 battery Mar 08 07:41:01 but I only have conversation and calender widget Mar 08 07:41:38 do you or have you swapped batteries? Mar 08 07:41:45 no Mar 08 07:42:03 my untrained battery would stay at 0% for like 6 hours heh Mar 08 07:42:11 guess I will have to buy a new battery Mar 08 07:42:16 odd... maybe try eliminating the widgets Mar 08 07:42:21 and check battery eye Mar 08 07:42:29 it gives you a nice little chart Mar 08 07:42:46 yeah I know - I like batterygraph better Mar 08 07:42:59 didnt see anything awkward? Mar 08 07:43:11 like a sudden drop towards the end? Mar 08 07:43:26 but even uninstalled that on, just to be sure it wasn't the eating one Mar 08 07:43:38 heh Mar 08 07:44:10 well you dont need the battery eye widget running just to get the battery history. and it really doesnt eat much to keep track Mar 08 07:44:19 no, it is just a very steep curve and fast dropping Mar 08 07:44:35 while asleep? Mar 08 07:44:37 odd Mar 08 07:45:15 yes, asleep and not using the phone at all Mar 08 07:45:15 on my untrained ones i just waited for it to turn off and then charged it fully Mar 08 07:45:37 doesnt the one youre using show which apps are eating the most? Mar 08 07:45:52 no Mar 08 07:46:02 maybe might be able to determine it from that, otherwise it could be because your battery has reached its eol Mar 08 07:46:04 can battery eye do that? Mar 08 07:46:15 i think so, cant remember tbh Mar 08 07:46:23 it has been a while Mar 08 07:48:21 will try to lower the power settings on wifi connection, to see if it has any influence Mar 08 07:49:01 it wont ;) Mar 08 07:49:07 nothing you would notice Mar 08 07:49:20 i recently bought 2 batteries. one last for 3+ days while the other one is off in about 24h Mar 08 07:49:21 sleeping my n900 would last forever tho Mar 08 07:51:57 tx0h: with the same capacity? Mar 08 07:52:32 it's the same batteries. but i didn't meassured it Mar 08 07:53:10 n900-dk_: still having trouble? hmmm, powertop C4 times are now...? Mar 08 07:54:41 sixwheeledbeast: yeah, stupid phone :( Mar 08 07:56:39 n900-dk_: well reflash would prove it's not h/w related. Mar 08 07:58:13 guess you are right Mar 08 07:59:17 C4 | 92.3% | 839.4ms | Mar 08 07:59:35 seems fine Mar 08 08:02:39 n900-dk_ that good maybe get a polarcell? Mar 08 08:03:27 anyway good luck g2g to work :( Mar 08 08:05:40 work is good Mar 08 08:05:43 they give you money n shit Mar 08 08:07:56 often more shit tho Mar 08 08:23:24 n900-dk_: what's with your appstarter-screen? has it enough icons so you can scroll up and down? Mar 08 08:27:04 n900-dk_: there's a stupid bug in hildon desktop that still isn't fixed in stock maemo afaik: when appstarted (or other screens) don't have enough content to allow scrolling up/down, the kinetic scrolling willl constantly bounce the screen content up and down 0 pixels Mar 08 08:27:34 which kills battery like nuttin Mar 08 08:27:56 so it could happend if one of my shortcut icons is on the edge? Mar 08 08:28:05 and you don't see much activity in anything, since it's mostly gfx engine that runs Mar 08 08:28:42 only thing with significant activity is X/hildon-desktop iirc Mar 08 08:29:08 desktop shortcuts? don't think so Mar 08 08:29:49 the I'm not sure, I understand what you mean with appstarter-screen.. Mar 08 08:29:56 this bug turned up first time when users installed apmefo or similar to sort their app icons into subfolders, so main appstarted screen became empty Mar 08 08:29:57 s/the/then/ Mar 08 08:29:58 n900-dk_ meant: then I'm not sure, I understand what you mean with appstarter-screen.. Mar 08 08:30:09 the screen where you start apps Mar 08 08:30:38 ahh :) Mar 08 08:30:59 desktop -> taskswitcher -> appstarter Mar 08 08:31:51 I have 3 rows and can scrool Mar 08 08:31:57 in cssu hildon desktop this bug got fixed Mar 08 08:32:11 oh, then this bug doesn't apply to you Mar 08 08:32:21 I'm on ccsu-t Mar 08 08:32:26 hah Mar 08 08:32:30 oh, then this bug doesn't apply to you Mar 08 08:33:08 C4 | 92.3% | 839.4ms | doesn't look too bad anyway Mar 08 08:34:17 wonder if my isp updated my wifi-router to do something stupid. Will try another wifi the next night Mar 08 08:35:01 next time you should post full pastebin of powertop output Mar 08 08:35:27 experts here can see details in it you wouldn't notice Mar 08 08:35:51 but it seems fine now, but the phone has also been off, since battery was drained Mar 08 08:36:02 like # of IRQ on different sources Mar 08 08:36:17 I will :) Mar 08 08:37:00 also forget battery-eye, what you need is cpu load applet Mar 08 08:37:11 my poertop looks like this: http://pastebin.ca/2329805 is this bad? i have no clue what it means Mar 08 08:37:15 to have a way to tell unusual cpu load Mar 08 08:37:46 DocScrutinizer05: can you recommend a cpu load applet? Mar 08 08:38:31 tx0h: yes, it's KP and thus the freq display upper right is garbled Mar 08 08:39:16 way too much C0 and too little C4 Mar 08 08:40:22 what is C0 - C4? Mar 08 08:41:24 sleep states of CPU Mar 08 08:41:27 tx0h: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/611 Mar 08 08:41:39 also way too many i2c IRQ, are you on charger? Mar 08 08:42:46 ty Mar 08 08:43:04 and FSCK pastebin.ca which wants to set another cookie every 15s Mar 08 08:43:37 yes, it's un the charger Mar 08 08:43:44 on Mar 08 08:43:46 then it's all normal Mar 08 08:44:12 but also meaningless Mar 08 08:44:28 :-) Mar 08 08:45:01 ok, i will have an eye on it Mar 08 09:06:03 * b0unc3 good morning Mar 08 09:37:29 is it a good time now to switch to cssu ? Mar 08 09:38:28 or is it better to wait? Mar 08 09:45:08 anyone around with experience with backup-menu Mar 08 09:45:34 not me, sry Mar 08 09:45:46 I tried installing KP52 and ended up bootlooped Mar 08 09:47:36 biketool: care to elaborate? Mar 08 09:47:50 then tried backing up from backupmenu but it froze after showing the menu, reflashed got backupmenu installed, backupmenu worked but the reinstall was a bootloop actually two different archives that I put on SD and with backupmenu onto the emmc Mar 08 09:48:55 Are you running thumb? Mar 08 09:49:20 this is for future fref, I reflashed and ended up spending the day returning to the n900 to get the right repos, reinstall and all the extras like cssu thumb, my webos stuff, flash 10, and 720p vid Mar 08 09:50:18 ah, running thumb hosed me on the new kernel? Mar 08 09:50:18 Is kp52 thumb compatible? Mar 08 09:50:27 probably NOT Mar 08 09:50:53 still weird that backupmenu still left me bootlooped Mar 08 09:50:58 what is thumb and what is kp52? Mar 08 09:51:00 especially after flashing Mar 08 09:51:33 kernel-power version 52, the early testing release Mar 08 09:51:39 you flashed, installed backupmenu, then after restoring your backup there was a bootloop? Mar 08 09:52:12 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84829 Mar 08 09:52:44 vi, yep, actually found an earlier archive, reflashed and tried that too Mar 08 09:52:52 then gave up and did the job by hand Mar 08 09:53:33 tx0h, the url is the announce fr thumb Mar 08 09:54:54 thumb takes advantage of a software fixed CPU feature, saves battery and gives a small performance bump Mar 08 09:56:10 I dont know that I have ever actually done a real backupmenu recover, thought I might be missing something Mar 08 09:56:20 wow, i need it. Mar 08 09:56:28 thumb is cool Mar 08 09:56:29 and kp52 is a new kernel? Mar 08 09:56:41 yea, it will be on the repos soon probably Mar 08 09:57:17 I tried it because I wanted to do automatic bluetooth PAN tether Mar 08 09:57:24 i ajust ask myseelf is this the right time to switch to cssu (testing) Mar 08 09:57:32 biketool: never restore to another kernel that the one the backup been done under Mar 08 09:58:25 Doc', so flashing to KP52 hosed my backupmenu booting? Mar 08 09:58:55 and flashing to a backupmenu archive on cssu from stock flash is also a no-go? Mar 08 09:59:21 no, restoring KP52 rootfs to a stock kernel hosed your restore Mar 08 09:59:25 biketool: do you think you bricked the n900? Mar 08 09:59:38 it is fine now Mar 08 10:00:12 just wasted every bit of free time for one day to do a full recover Mar 08 10:00:23 when you do a backup under acme kernel, you need to restore like this: reflash, install BM, *install acme kernel*, only then restore Mar 08 10:00:28 rather than 10 min to do a backupmenu repair Mar 08 10:00:31 this backup menu, what does it do? a dd via wireless? Mar 08 10:00:52 Doc', ok, thanks for that Mar 08 10:01:25 tx0h: no, a tar of rootfs and /home Mar 08 10:01:34 to uSD Mar 08 10:01:50 ah, ok Mar 08 10:01:54 (or eMMC, not recommended) Mar 08 10:02:09 dd from an archive on your sd or mydocs, also does fsck, and allows you to do bulk storage USB to a PC of whole file system Mar 08 10:02:20 super useful repair tool Mar 08 10:03:02 yea, a tar unspooled onto the partition / and /opt Mar 08 10:03:37 with that you installed incompatible kernel modules -> bootloop Mar 08 10:03:47 kernel is _not_ on / Mar 08 10:03:52 modules are Mar 08 10:04:01 shall i wait switching to cssu? Mar 08 10:04:13 wait for? Mar 08 10:04:23 for better weather? Mar 08 10:04:38 i don't know. for stable repository organization Mar 08 10:04:40 *shrug* - sunny here Mar 08 10:04:50 use CSSU-S Mar 08 10:04:54 should work Mar 08 10:05:04 T might have 'issues' Mar 08 10:05:12 at this time the url's changes very often Mar 08 10:05:29 but i like testing Mar 08 10:05:53 you can 'upgrade' to T later Mar 08 10:06:25 how stale is stable? Mar 08 10:07:00 but T uses a new enabler which depends on pkgs from Nokia/extras-devel and that's why it might break Mar 08 10:07:12 rock solid stable Mar 08 10:07:28 and not stale Mar 08 10:07:45 i just need to change from fremental to fremental-1.3 Mar 08 10:08:01 i did it all the time.. Mar 08 10:08:18 o.O Mar 08 10:08:33 i mean the url in /etc/apt/sour*.d/.. Mar 08 10:08:57 you're not even supposed to edit that file Mar 08 10:09:08 it works Mar 08 10:09:23 *shrug* Mar 08 10:09:34 i really hate the application manager, it's lame Mar 08 10:09:42 when a symlink works better for you than the original dir Mar 08 10:09:56 cssu has better repo reliability than nokia Mar 08 10:10:26 cssu thumb is an upgrad from cssu Mar 08 10:10:36 has always been stable even with someovercloc Mar 08 10:10:41 for me Mar 08 10:11:49 is there a roadmap when the new repositories get in place? Mar 08 10:11:59 sure, OC never been known as particularly instable, it just reduces your CPU's lifetime to 0.01% of what it was without Mar 08 10:12:12 I think it is mostly an issue with hash Mar 08 10:12:35 tx0h: the new repository *is* in place Mar 08 10:12:39 ok, gotta go, thanks Mar 08 10:13:03 then cssu-t shouldn't be an issue? Mar 08 10:13:30 we can't fix expired Nokia key Mar 08 10:13:50 ah, nokia's fault. now i got you Mar 08 10:14:58 well, i will try cssu-t now Mar 08 10:15:00 anyway, just install cssu-s and then switch repo from stable to testing Mar 08 10:15:20 i can live with repository missmatch Mar 08 10:15:33 hmm.. Mar 08 10:15:34 and do apt-get install mp-communitiy-pr or somesuch Mar 08 10:15:52 ok, i go with stable and upgrade Mar 08 10:15:54 this will lift you to T Mar 08 10:16:03 but this doubles the download times Mar 08 10:16:30 not really, since not many apps will get installed again under T Mar 08 10:16:42 Does anyone know how to add keysets to the pierogi IR remote program? Mar 08 10:17:06 I would very much like to add my car. Mar 08 10:17:23 Or more specifically, can I spam stuff strait to /dev/IRLED? Mar 08 10:17:42 huh? Mar 08 10:18:52 I#d thing it's using LIRC as backend, no? Mar 08 10:19:09 everybody does Mar 08 10:19:18 I believe he used a bunch of code from LIRC Mar 08 10:19:54 sounds nasty Mar 08 10:20:04 Not really. Mar 08 10:20:15 It is a very well written program. Mar 08 10:20:51 CBA to even ponder how a well written program comes with own kernel driver Mar 08 10:21:53 anyway irled is driven by a timer/divider aka PWM-generator Mar 08 10:22:17 I wonder how the tv-begone widget does it. Mar 08 10:22:18 the rest is most likely up to 'you', i.e. bitbang the data Mar 08 10:22:25 Yeah. Mar 08 10:22:39 It is written entirely in python. Mar 08 10:22:51 realtime in python?? :-o Mar 08 10:23:05 dafaq Mar 08 10:24:52 tvbegone afaik using lirc driver Mar 08 10:25:59 DocScrutinizer05: http://pastebin.com/9xg8R1cs Mar 08 10:27:12 so what? Mar 08 10:27:25 did you need me to spot this? -> Mar 08 10:27:28 # ioctl: LIRC_SET_SEND_CARRIER Mar 08 10:27:28 Ok, it does use LIRC. Mar 08 10:27:29 fcntl.ioctl (self.lircdev, 0x40046913, Mar 08 10:30:22 LIRC driver is nice, since you don't need to bother about timing. You basically send the morse code to lirc Mar 08 10:30:29 as data Mar 08 10:31:23 plus the carrier freq Mar 08 10:31:52 57kHz, 001110111011101010111011101010100000000111011101010101110111010101 Mar 08 10:32:23 obviously you also need to define the slot duration for one digit Mar 08 10:34:13 hey! didn't even lurk, but compare this now :-D : Mar 08 10:34:16 [ 37037, "301000000000001000000000100000000101111001011110124010000000000010000000001000000001011110010111101", Mar 08 10:35:19 [(440, 450), (440, 1310), (440, 74620), (3460, 1760), (3460, 1780)]], Mar 08 10:37:17 simon Budig, hmmm. wonder what's been his IRC nick when he came here asking how to implement it Mar 08 10:37:29 can't recall Mar 08 11:42:25 19:11:30 Estel_ | divVerent, you're doing it wrong with dosbox Mar 08 11:42:38 so expecting the default config to work is wrong? Mar 08 11:42:42 sounds rather like a package bug then ;) Mar 08 11:43:19 but seriously the thread has 76 pages... any search terms for the config? Mar 08 11:45:34 Estel_: http://wiki.maemo.org/DOSBox looks useful, but I may need more than that... as none of this fixes speed Mar 08 11:45:39 the keyboard fix however is indeed what I need Mar 08 12:00:02 Estel_: also, TIM was somewhat ok performance wise in-game, but the intro at the start was jerky...+ Mar 08 12:00:17 but, mouse clicks were not registered at the right position but about 2 blocks below, which is annoying Mar 08 12:05:42 DocScrutinizer05: can you explain this@ Mar 08 12:05:43 : Mar 08 12:05:44 10:34:14 - DocScrutinizer05: hey! didn't even lurk, but compare this now :-D : Mar 08 12:05:44 10:34:16 - DocScrutinizer05: [ 37037, "301000000000001000000000100000000101111001011110124010000000000010000000001000000001011110010111101", Mar 08 12:05:45 10:35:20 - DocScrutinizer05: [(440, 450), (440, 1310), (440, 74620), (3460, 1760), (3460, 1780)]], Mar 08 12:28:04 The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: Mar 08 12:28:06 epubreader dorian Mar 08 12:28:08 The following packages will be REMOVED: Mar 08 12:28:10 dorian epubreader Mar 08 12:28:12 Great way about sorting things is... Mar 08 12:28:14 that you have so many criteria to do it by! Mar 08 12:29:11 (now that I slimmed down my system properly using deborphan, I exported the deborphan data to apt and now use autoremove instead) Mar 08 13:33:53 tvbgone may be using lirc driver, but not lirc package as a whole (dropping dependencies to read IR signals, useless on N900) Mar 08 13:33:57 vi__, ping Mar 08 13:34:17 no user way to add keysets to pierogi yet - if you have data, send it to Copernicus Mar 08 13:34:21 he will gladly include Mar 08 13:34:34 or incorporate it into source code and send him patch, event cherrier ;) Mar 08 13:35:48 vi__, btw, once, you've highlighted a good place to bundle xbindkeys automatic startup as user into. While I've found (thanks to help here) other places for it, out of curiosity, could you remind me what it was? Mar 08 13:36:16 can't remember for a life of mine Mar 08 13:36:37 BTW, as someone was wrong (tm) here: kp52 *does* support thumb Mar 08 13:37:03 so switching from cssu-thumb kernel into kp52 shouldn't result in bootloop. Mar 08 13:37:28 not to mention that thumb errors doen't result in bootloop at all, instead, it makes thing crash every few seconds Mar 08 13:37:37 programs, desktop, whatever. But it boots. Mar 08 13:39:43 divVerent, as for dosbox, I'm on 900 mhz max, and here cpu speed matteres much(all) Mar 08 13:39:50 as for config, let me check... Mar 08 13:40:16 Estel_: I saw one post by you, but the only performance critical things were: Mar 08 13:40:20 3 frameskips (hate that) Mar 08 13:40:28 auto cycles (is default in the current package) Mar 08 13:40:36 auto core, suggesting dynamic too (auto is default) Mar 08 13:40:48 divVerent, it is not noticeable in real life on N900 (3 frameskip). or set it to 2, if you don't like 3 Mar 08 13:40:55 I set it to 1 for now Mar 08 13:40:59 that is even ok on a PC for me Mar 08 13:41:04 1-2 are not noticeable for 100%, and give huge performance boost Mar 08 13:41:12 right Mar 08 13:41:23 on PC, 2 already annoys me in Stunts Mar 08 13:41:25 lemme check config for other things of interest Mar 08 13:41:41 another somewhat unrelated issue: is there a trick to get sound out of scummvm? Mar 08 13:41:47 I just can't get music to work in monkey island 1 Mar 08 13:42:04 it might be bad files, though Mar 08 13:42:19 so I will verify with the version of MI1 I actually own that I have at home, and not the one I dl'd from the net :P Mar 08 13:46:33 divVerent, beneath a steel sky works with sound in scumm here Mar 08 13:46:35 http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?fa7e2787034583f0#ED4L413vfxIaGflqnj0Wbeoo55omyqYgG5oNYoifuG0= Mar 08 13:46:38 for refference Mar 08 13:46:49 of course screen things are of interest... Mar 08 13:47:08 + Imve disabled emulation of everything that doesnt need to be emulated, like di,sney or joysticks Mar 08 13:47:13 saves some cycles Mar 08 13:47:47 of course [sdl] section is most important, check for differencies with your config and experiment Mar 08 13:48:02 also, scummvm is somewhat stupid to use :( Mar 08 13:48:07 like, shift-ctrl-m is hard to press Mar 08 13:48:26 and ctrl-volumekey is just stupid to enable tapping... maybe a job for an xmodmap wrapper Mar 08 13:48:38 luckily, most SCUMM games don't use many keys ;) Mar 08 13:48:53 divVerent, hm, I don't remember such strange keyset for scumm, maybe I've changed smth ;P) Mar 08 13:49:02 oh, it can be changed? even better Mar 08 13:49:09 most letter keys in monkey island are purely optional Mar 08 13:49:17 they enable actions, but you also can just click them in the actions bar Mar 08 13:49:31 actually... aren't ALL purely optional? :P Mar 08 13:49:41 esc is the only really required key... and the very one not accessible at all :( Mar 08 13:49:46 to skip long talks or intro Mar 08 13:50:02 maybe... I don't remember, about changing, haven't used scum for a looong time Mar 08 13:50:13 I'll see if that can be changed Mar 08 13:50:17 and i have esc for sure Mar 08 13:50:23 have/had Mar 08 13:50:25 where did you map it BTW? Mar 08 13:50:52 either somewhere in scum config, or maybe it respects maemo hardware keyboard remap, where i defined 99% of keys from full sized keyboard? Mar 08 13:51:15 (using 3th and 4th layer, like shift + blue arrow + key, which is easy to press with two fingers) Mar 08 13:51:33 as for dosbox, for some games it also help to change emulated machine Mar 08 13:51:44 from svga_e3 etc Mar 08 13:51:52 but this is per-game thing Mar 08 13:51:58 lemme check scum Mar 08 13:55:22 well, for sure I need only volume key to disable clicking... without ctrl Mar 08 13:55:25 Estel_: /etc/X11/xsession.post/90YOURSCRIPTHERE Mar 08 13:55:35 and i got same effect by holding shift, but scum doesnt know that Mar 08 13:55:39 vi__, thanks Mar 08 13:56:02 Estel_: I have the sequence and the modulation freq for my car. Mar 08 13:56:15 I want to open my car with my n900. Mar 08 13:56:33 Does pierogi have a command line interface? Mar 08 13:56:35 vi__, so Copernicus will gladly add it, but you're sure it's opened by infra-red? Mar 08 13:56:39 nope Mar 08 13:56:55 openin car via infra-red sounds... silly. Mar 08 13:57:06 ie pierogi --device TV --make SAMSUNG --keyset 1A --command OFF Mar 08 13:57:25 vi__, I'm not aware of any command line for pierogi :( Mar 08 13:57:54 Well my car has IR central locking, all I have to do is send it a sequence to lock/unlock. Mar 08 13:59:08 you know it may be a rolling code? Mar 08 13:59:13 strange, every moron could easily record your ir sequence and repeat it Mar 08 13:59:17 It is not. Mar 08 13:59:21 lol Mar 08 13:59:25 not simply the same code repeated. Mar 08 13:59:38 is your car 20 years old? Mar 08 13:59:42 Welcome to citreon, 1994. Mar 08 13:59:49 well, if it's same code repeated, then your car is as hard to open as Any TV Mar 08 13:59:50 ash Mar 08 14:00:04 oh, well. Mar 08 14:00:17 Not really. Mar 08 14:00:28 really Mar 08 14:00:41 You would have to observe the code from my key. Mar 08 14:00:44 odds are, that learning remote for tv would be able to open it too Mar 08 14:00:47 no problem. Mar 08 14:00:55 even from distance (reflections) Mar 08 14:00:56 Estel_: That is correct. Mar 08 14:01:19 anyway, Copernicus will be glad to include first car into pierogi keyset Mar 08 14:01:43 if you're happy, that every pierogi user will be able to open your car Mar 08 14:01:48 The thing is the code from the TX is unique. You have to lock the car to it. Mar 08 14:02:22 so either you do own fork of pierogi with patch adding your code Mar 08 14:02:23 Meh. I do not even need it. I have a key anyway. Mar 08 14:02:34 or you install all lirc bundle daemon etc Mar 08 14:02:37 and use other way Mar 08 14:02:53 coolness factor by opening car via N900, eh? :P Mar 08 14:03:05 if only there was a nice command line tool that would work from a sh script. Mar 08 14:03:06 divVerent, scummvm respect hardware remap Mar 08 14:03:20 so in my case, for example, blue arrow + tap = right click Mar 08 14:03:34 (same as using right volume key, but the latter is defined in scum configj Mar 08 14:03:40 hardware remap? Mar 08 14:03:41 IRSEND --modulation 37k -code 25 44 32 16 7 Mar 08 14:03:55 divVerent, see wiki article remapping hardware keyboard Mar 08 14:04:07 ah, I see Mar 08 14:04:10 BTW, good idea, this remap Mar 08 14:04:13 vi__, can't it be done with lirc driver alone? Mar 08 14:04:23 maybe. Mar 08 14:04:24 one of the things I wanted to do anyway, to enable german umlaut keys Mar 08 14:04:38 divVerent, it's usefull for many things, like easy debian, or programs from desktop ported to Maemo (without cutting functions) Mar 08 14:04:40 ~ vikbd Mar 08 14:04:45 ~vikbd Mar 08 14:04:50 heck, IIRC even microB answer to right mouse press, sometimes Mar 08 14:04:54 ~vi_kbd Mar 08 14:04:54 in some cases* Mar 08 14:05:03 ~vikb Mar 08 14:05:04 damn, wiki JUST doesn't respond :( Mar 08 14:05:05 ffs Mar 08 14:05:20 ~ping Mar 08 14:05:20 ah, works now Mar 08 14:05:20 ~pong Mar 08 14:05:24 fuckit I am going home. Mar 08 14:05:30 bb :) Mar 08 14:05:49 infobot, now what? Mar 08 14:05:49 extra, extra, read all about it, now what is 2*4? Mar 08 14:05:56 sure Mar 08 14:06:19 ~therapion Mar 08 14:08:59 what is now what? Mar 08 14:09:13 infobot, what is now what? Mar 08 14:09:13 now what is probably 2*4? Mar 08 14:10:16 wtf, why does this even work? Mar 08 14:10:18 key { type[Group1] = "PC_FN_LEVEL2", symbols[Group1] = [ Up, udiaeresis ] }; Mar 08 14:10:20 I nmean Mar 08 14:10:29 how does it know that shift-fn-up outputs upper case Ü? Mar 08 14:10:38 it works, just want to know where X.org does this magic Mar 08 14:17:26 Estel_: how do you make fn-tap do right mouse button? Mar 08 14:17:46 installing x11-utils now so I can play with xev Mar 08 14:18:44 haha, xev actually gets no keyboard events ever... weird Mar 08 14:22:21 as for right click Mar 08 14:22:29 xbindkeys and xdotool Mar 08 14:22:34 (for maemo) Mar 08 14:24:27 divVerent: Mar 08 14:24:35 need to put that into xbindkeys config: Mar 08 14:24:37 http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?116a1fafa7fa2896#w3CqGLHfFZdoUI1zsVO6h8u7DgdXIN6NdaoS4B8HMvo= Mar 08 14:24:42 ah, I see Mar 08 14:25:00 assume xdotool is present on the system, too Mar 08 14:25:02 bit cleaner than abusing xkbset Mar 08 14:26:14 I used to bind F1-F12 to upper row keys by xbindkeys, too, but switched to doing so in hardware remap way Mar 08 14:26:22 aka rx-51 file Mar 08 14:26:42 as it works for more things than xbindkeys used too Mar 08 14:27:11 (yes, I have F1-F12 mapped too, as said 99% of full sized keyboard :P ) Mar 08 14:27:40 including chars like |><%$^~[]}{ Mar 08 14:27:48 very convenient Mar 08 14:27:58 (I'm writing it from N900 even now :P) Mar 08 14:30:33 Estel_: upper row? you mean on crappy keybinds like Fn+Ctrl+Q = F1? ;) Mar 08 14:33:19 no, why Mar 08 14:33:36 blue arrow + shift (which is easily covered by one finger) + q Mar 08 14:33:40 = F1 Mar 08 14:34:03 fn + ctrl is more complicated as it is Sym table Mar 08 14:34:05 ;) Mar 08 14:34:24 from practice, btw, shift and blue arrow is very conveinent Mar 08 14:34:39 btw shift + blue arrow is somethng different than blue arrow + shift Mar 08 14:34:41 ;) Mar 08 14:35:00 normally it doesn't matter, but could be abused to bind even more Mar 08 14:35:25 it's just that I already managed to have full keyboard binded to N900 keyboard, so no need to complicate things Mar 08 14:35:33 xes, ping Mar 08 14:37:25 hm... would like to see your keybind file then :) maybe even on the wiki Mar 08 14:44:43 divVerent, why not, but it's also filled with polish characters, so would require clean-up :) Mar 08 14:45:17 I use unusual approach to local things, though. Instead of binding special letters a whole, I bind dead_ components Mar 08 14:45:28 like dead_ogonek Mar 08 14:45:37 or dead_dot Mar 08 14:45:43 ˙ Mar 08 14:46:11 or dead_accute. So, I have it binded to shift + blue arrow to some key... Mar 08 14:46:21 then, I use it to mix with any letter I want Mar 08 14:46:51 Estel_: that's actually a nice idea... Mar 08 14:47:01 this way, using only one key for ´ I have possibility to invoke all leter mixed with ´, for example ć ó ń ź etc Mar 08 14:47:03 currently I put ÄÖÜß on arrows... but as I will soon move to Switzerland... Mar 08 14:47:17 it may be better to put dead diaresis, acute, grave on three of them Mar 08 14:47:22 and keep ß when writing to Germans ;) Mar 08 14:47:28 and, after some practice, it's very natural way of writing, no slower than using accented letter directly Mar 08 14:47:40 I remember this way of writing from the TI-92 ;) Mar 08 14:47:46 hehe Mar 08 14:48:03 there is only one irritating thing, no working dead slash :( Mar 08 14:48:08 so ł have to be letter Mar 08 14:48:17 due to bug in x-something Mar 08 14:48:32 compose key? Mar 08 14:48:40 won't work, tried Mar 08 14:48:46 oh, ok Mar 08 14:48:52 so doing a capitalised ł is PITA Mar 08 14:49:22 dead slash or how it's called should work, but it just doesnt Mar 08 14:49:30 same apply, probably, to slashed o in nordic Mar 08 14:49:45 or is it dead_strike Mar 08 14:49:55 anyway, it just don't work with that single dead only :( Mar 08 14:51:57 to capitalise ł I need to enable caps lock then invoke it with blue arrow only... Mar 08 14:52:06 which is only one problematic key Mar 08 14:52:11 damn, ccedilla is not possible to enter via `c or the like Mar 08 14:52:21 I might need that TOO... Mar 08 14:52:29 are you sure youmre using dead? Mar 08 14:52:30 hm Mar 08 14:52:40 thing is, I can only map 3 of the arrow keys Mar 08 14:52:50 left is grave, middle is diaeresis, right is acute Mar 08 14:52:54 up I need for ß Mar 08 14:52:56 need to use shift + blue arrow + c Mar 08 14:53:21 they currently do the same for me as unshifted :P Mar 08 14:53:32 btw I'm not sure if mapping things to arrow is good idea Mar 08 14:53:46 won't you lose capability to highlight text by shift + arrow? Mar 08 14:53:54 haha, seems easy to fix Mar 08 14:54:01 hm? Mar 08 14:54:04 yes, which is why I only remap fn-arrow Mar 08 14:54:07 key { [ a, A, asterisk, asterisk ] }; Mar 08 14:54:19 note that quite explicitly fn-a and shift-fn-a are equal Mar 08 14:54:22 so I can map these two differently Mar 08 14:54:44 great, means lots of easy space for symbols :P Mar 08 14:54:51 that's what I toldya Mar 08 14:55:04 yes, I just don't get the ordering of these, what these levels mean Mar 08 14:55:10 editing existing definitions is easy though Mar 08 14:55:16 blue arrow = fn (well, in fact it's not fn but AltGr, but no one know it, so I call it blue arrow to avoid confusion) Mar 08 14:55:30 first thing is keystroke Mar 08 14:55:37 another keystroke + shift Mar 08 14:55:40 ok, need to take out the TI-92 to see how it mapped the dead keys... so I can use my old "finger mapping" ;) Mar 08 14:56:04 ah, diaeresis was on U Mar 08 14:56:07 later is blue arrow + keystroke and later shift + blue arrow + keystroke Mar 08 14:56:19 the logic behind these was apparently, 2nd+key is the dead key most commonly used with that key Mar 08 14:56:27 so 2nd-u yielded the diaeresis because ü is common :P Mar 08 14:56:32 no idea how to achieve shift + blue arrow + keystroke, without altering what happens with shift + keystroke Mar 08 14:56:45 (so arrows would still allow to higlight text by shift and arrowing) Mar 08 14:57:04 and yes, I will probbaly undo the arrow change and rather go the TI-92-like route... mainly because I once was used to it Mar 08 14:57:08 hey, I replicated this logic Mar 08 14:57:08 so I probably will easily get used to it again Mar 08 14:57:17 without using TI-92 ever :P Mar 08 14:57:24 also put the dead keys similarily? Mar 08 14:57:30 on the same key as the letter you often use it with? Mar 08 14:57:36 I also mapped dead key to most commonly used key with that dead Mar 08 14:57:38 i.e. most of them on vowel keys, especially Mar 08 14:58:11 ah, TI used: Mar 08 14:58:14 2nd-A is grave Mar 08 14:58:17 yea, at the same key where it is most used Mar 08 14:58:18 2nd-C is dead cedille Mar 08 14:58:21 2nd-E is acute Mar 08 14:58:22 2nd-N is tilde Mar 08 14:58:26 2nd-O is caret Mar 08 14:58:29 2nd-U is umlaut Mar 08 14:58:30 just that I made it for polish especially Mar 08 14:58:41 that should cover ALL the languages spoken in Switzerland ;) Mar 08 14:58:47 :) Mar 08 14:59:05 thank goodness I need to have only polish and english Mar 08 14:59:15 in .ch, I'd mainly need the others for place names Mar 08 14:59:24 understandable Mar 08 14:59:25 also, I am German, but Swiss-German handles French-origin words differently Mar 08 14:59:29 they actually spell them in original French Mar 08 14:59:32 but complicated, still ;) Mar 08 14:59:32 i.e. with all accents retained Mar 08 14:59:38 while "regular" German strips the accents Mar 08 15:00:09 I'm all for multi-cultural, but it makes keyboard mapping a mess Mar 08 15:01:23 ...which reminds me that I should already start making "traditional" polish dinner of Spaghetti, for hungry family Mar 08 15:01:27 see ya later! Mar 08 15:04:39 cu Mar 08 15:04:49 while at it, adding mapping for <> | :P Mar 08 15:12:03 argh... SOUNDED easy... but I just put <> where [] would have belonged ;) Mar 08 15:19:56 Estel_: getting a funny bug, can you check if your mapping has the issue too? Mar 08 15:20:11 shift+fn+J and shift+fn+K always output BOTH assigned keybinds Mar 08 15:20:24 aloso visible in the default binds, where these two both enter )& Mar 08 15:27:59 http://pastebin.com/ARf4QHru - my current binds now BTW Mar 08 15:28:14 NoSymbol on Shift+Fn+K to avoid the bug Mar 08 15:28:52 BTW, a second plausible mapping would be dead grave on b, dead acute on v, dead diaeresis on n Mar 08 15:28:55 then they match the blue symbols Mar 08 15:34:06 divVerent: it's a problem of the keyboard Mar 08 15:34:14 shift+fn+z and shift+fn+x are the same thing Mar 08 15:34:26 same as... shift+fn+k and shift+fn+l i think? Mar 08 15:41:39 funny problem :P Mar 08 15:41:51 indeed, z+x exhibit it too Mar 08 15:42:00 kl do not, but jk do Mar 08 15:42:29 and yes, I was assuming it must be a HW problem Mar 08 16:22:58 ok, here I have another question... how would one "harden" Maemo so a web browser exploit cannot get root rights Mar 08 16:23:10 one obvious thing I did: I removed the NOPASSWD: from the gainroot entry in sudoers, and set a user password Mar 08 16:23:25 but I noticed quite a lot of sudoers entries that suffice to gain root Mar 08 16:24:00 e.g. /usr/sbin/osso-prepare-partition.sh can be run with any args via sudo, and passing "/path/to/destination if=/path/to/source" can copy any file up to 512 bytes size as root Mar 08 16:24:11 which suffices to become root by rewriting /etc/shadow and /etc/passwd ;) Mar 08 16:24:43 and yes, i know this threat is VERY unlikely... DesktopLinux/ARM is not targeted much, unlike e.g. Android/ARM Mar 08 16:25:33 basically: where should I address bugs in sudoers-run programs? Mar 08 16:26:16 also, I know quite well that hardening the system in such a way would require getting rid of hildon-application-manager, which is actually DESIGNED to enable installation of software without root permissions ;) Mar 08 16:27:10 so basically, where are security bugs in Maemo "core" packages to be reported to? Mar 08 16:56:27 divVerent: cssu if anywhere Mar 08 16:58:21 and is there a policy to keep such things secret, or is it ok to freely publish them on the bug tracker (usually I'd attach a fixing patch)? Mar 08 16:59:24 probably the latter, given that most users quite intentionally allow "sudo gainroot" without any questions asked ;) Mar 08 17:00:08 (which is also why I'd never report this as "bug" for the rootsh package - if it's what the user wants, then it's right and not a bug) Mar 08 17:02:00 we actually never had a policy for security bugs Mar 08 17:02:16 we as in the cssu team, nokia obviously had some Mar 08 17:02:31 but Nokia is totally out by now, I think Mar 08 17:02:33 or not? Mar 08 17:02:39 yes it is Mar 08 17:03:55 and the N900 is by default designed to be rootable... so what I want to find out, is a) how to close down the intentional holes, and b) how to fix the unintentional ones :P Mar 08 17:04:32 the most obvious intentional one is that one can enter custom repositories into hildon-application-manager. I suppose making the catalogues XML file immutable via chattr would "fix" this one ;) Mar 08 17:04:52 of course, it's the very feature because of which I have a N900 Mar 08 17:05:45 so my end goal would be fixing ALL the holes, but allowing root login via sudo with password (or ssh with a key for root) Mar 08 17:06:04 the issue with HAM is that it allows installation of stuff (which can give root easily) without authencation Mar 08 17:06:15 that issue also exists, but IIRC can be fixed on APT level Mar 08 17:06:21 by making signatures mandatory Mar 08 17:06:33 personally I don't care, I don't see any reason for people to steal my phone and do stuff Mar 08 17:06:44 so one of my suggestions for hardening would be getting rid of HAM entirely, and using apt-get via a controlled root shell Mar 08 17:06:56 sudo ham Mar 08 17:07:04 yes, or removing its sudo rights ;) Mar 08 17:07:05 and if they do, they wont find anything interesting (besides the raw value of N900 obviously) Mar 08 17:07:07 and running it as root then Mar 08 17:07:10 using ham assumes you're the device user Mar 08 17:07:15 exactly Mar 08 17:07:25 so it is not "unsafe" Mar 08 17:07:34 the thing is, a web browser exploit (for example) can use the very same sudo commands HAM uses to spawn and talk to apt-worker Mar 08 17:07:34 unless you hand your phone to random strangers unlocked Mar 08 17:07:36 thus install stuff Mar 08 17:07:48 merlin1991: that's my point :p Mar 08 17:07:49 I am mainly worried about impact of browser exploits Mar 08 17:07:58 that the GUI assumes you are the owner is ok Mar 08 17:08:39 so one other step would also be attemptting to sandbox the browser Mar 08 17:08:51 probably futile, as we WANT the browser to be able to spawn e.g. the word processor Mar 08 17:09:00 and running as different user IDs would be problematic Mar 08 17:09:52 also, whatever I do, an exploit can always read the MMC or VFAT partition Mar 08 17:09:55 i.e. get ALL the photos ;) Mar 08 17:10:12 issue shared with Android, BTW Mar 08 17:14:49 divVerent: you can fix most of that by installing android on your n900 ;) Mar 08 17:24:52 divVerent: there's no /etc/shadow Mar 08 17:25:03 so if you have passwordful sudo, your security is worth shit Mar 08 18:19:31 hey there. Any news about the maemo build system? I didn't follow the discussions lately and thought about doing a new rockbox release soon Mar 08 18:38:57 thomasjfox_ it's getting there, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89273 Mar 08 18:39:57 mmm, got a screw in the display module that will not come out, grr. Mar 08 18:40:38 sixwheeledbeast: yey! thanks. Mar 08 18:41:12 I'll try the build system on the mentioned IP soonish ;) Mar 08 18:42:07 and I need to fork over some $$$ to keep this effort running. the n900 is still the best phone for me (proper keyboard) Mar 08 18:46:19 anybody got any ideas on removing a rounded ph00 screw from a display module? Mar 08 18:47:07 1mm reverse drill bit Mar 08 18:47:40 ShadowJK: you tested that? Mar 08 18:47:49 no Mar 08 18:48:22 not with that particular screw Mar 08 18:48:28 or on a N900 at all Mar 08 18:49:10 But in many cases when you start drilling into a screw with a reverse drill (one that spins counter clockwise when drilling down), the screw will start turning Mar 08 18:49:23 If it doesn't, you glue a rod into the hole you just made, wait for it to set Mar 08 18:49:35 five of hem are out and this last one came out a little then got really tight and snapped the screwdriver bit. Mar 08 18:50:07 I am trying to glue the broken screwdriver bit to the screw atm Mar 08 20:04:04 M4rtinK: ping Mar 08 20:08:09 xes: pong :) Mar 08 20:08:24 xes: got your email ! :) Mar 08 20:08:28 xes: thanks ! :) Mar 08 20:10:19 M4rtinK: have you seen something interesting? Most of this is just a quick hack, but it could be interesting if integrated in a proper way Mar 08 20:11:01 xes: yep, my plan is to use this as a base for an import feature Mar 08 20:11:53 something like --import-gns /path/to.db Mar 08 20:12:32 and eventually also interactive import triggered from the GUI (file open dialog, etc.) Mar 08 20:13:18 will also try to improve POI handling when I'm at it :) Mar 08 20:13:42 not sure about the timeframe but lets say "soon" :) Mar 08 20:15:15 great! The funcion to calculate the distance should be a little optimized, i had to cut a few steps to reduce the time of execution of the script but attached there is also the original readable funcion in the other script Mar 08 20:16:19 btw, just an idea to help the offline users! ;) Mar 08 20:25:53 M4rtinK: as you can see, gns files have a fixed link for the download (http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/namefiles.htm)so i think you could point to them directly in the import wizard Mar 08 20:28:39 xes: good point - that would also be a nice feature :) Mar 08 20:29:03 xes: BTW, do they update them regularly ? Mar 08 20:29:20 regarding distance calculation Mar 08 20:29:58 modRana has some quite optimized distance calculation functions Mar 08 20:30:08 (rewritten from Marble :)) Mar 08 20:31:07 for sure faster than my bash function! Gns update that files about every 1 or 2 months Mar 08 20:33:37 ..while italian users would be very happy of the "poi gps" import feature Mar 08 20:48:52 xes: poi gps ? Mar 08 22:10:16 sixwheeled|away: be *careful* with glue! odds are you glue the screw in place instead of helping with getting it unscrewed Mar 08 22:11:10 That's a big risk with screws this small... Mar 08 22:23:39 Pali: assuming Nokia(core) has access to the SW-admin-GPGkey but isn't willing to hand it out to Nokia-affiliates. What file would Matti need to send to NokiaCore to have it signed there by the SW-key? Could you investigate how such a scenario could still work? Mar 08 22:23:58 DocScrutinizer05: Release Mar 08 22:24:25 (but wait for Pali's or merlin1991's confirmation) Mar 08 22:24:43 DocScrutinizer05, he only needs to sign Release file on each apt line repository Mar 08 22:24:53 kerio: I thought as much, but we'd need *details* and in-depth investigation if we were to send such a suggestion to NokiaAffiliates Mar 08 22:24:54 and store signature into file Release.gpg Mar 08 22:25:34 what keys are we talking about here? Mar 08 22:25:44 nokia gpg key for ssu/ovi Mar 08 22:25:49 Pali: could you write up a *detailed* (to the commandline, with arguments and FQN-filenames) instruction how to do that? Mar 08 22:26:14 kerio: could you help? Mar 08 22:26:21 DocScrutinizer05, matti already wrote that they have infrastructure & scripts for that Mar 08 22:26:36 and he know how to fix it Mar 08 22:26:40 DocScrutinizer05: gpg --list-keys and then gpg --export-key key_id Mar 08 22:26:50 jacekowski, no Mar 08 22:27:01 I think Matti doesn't exactly know what key to apply where, that's why he says they have scripts that do *standard* stuff for them Mar 08 22:27:15 Pali: ? Mar 08 22:27:22 jacekowski: not to export the key, to sign the Release file and create a Release.gpg Mar 08 22:27:48 ahm Mar 08 22:27:50 jacekowski: they need to change gpg key Mar 08 22:28:01 they? Mar 08 22:28:02 public part is already hardcoded in maemo Mar 08 22:28:10 they = nokia Mar 08 22:28:29 jacekowski: on device we have two pubkeys for SSU: one normal one which is expired, and a SW-admin key. Mar 08 22:29:08 jacekowski: Nokia-affiliates has only normal expired private key to sign SSU with Mar 08 22:29:45 We need to update that pubkey to a extended validity date, and for that we need signature from SW-admin private-key Mar 08 22:30:00 which is owned by Nokia-Core, not affiliates Mar 08 22:31:11 to install a new cert with extended validity, that package needs to get signed by a valid key which is SW-adm-key Mar 08 22:31:22 DocScrutinizer05, from matti's mails I understand that he know how to fix this it but he wrote that that swadmin key is used somewhere in nokia and he needs permission to use it Mar 08 22:31:39 exactly Mar 08 22:32:33 no Mar 08 22:32:46 all you have to do is edit the expired key and then send it to key servers Mar 08 22:32:56 that's why I suggest to send a detailed instruction how to go alternative path and send file to key for signature and then get signed file back. since I guess NokiaCore won't grant access/permission for SW-adm key to Matti Mar 08 22:32:57 and then somehow device has to find out that key is updated Mar 08 22:32:59 jacekowski: and then tell the n900 users to download the updated key? Mar 08 22:33:15 you're funny Mar 08 22:33:20 jacekowski: somehow, yeah Mar 08 22:33:23 the whole point is that we want to avoid that Mar 08 22:33:28 jacekowski, chicken & egg problem Mar 08 22:33:50 you cannot update gpg key without working ssu repo and you cannot update ssu repo without working gpg key... Mar 08 22:33:59 because it's basically just a matter of trying to avoid having to poison n900-fmrx-enabler in extras Mar 08 22:34:17 jacekowski, and now gpg key is not working, so ssu repo is not working Mar 08 22:34:28 Pali: kerio: please write up an alternative suggestion that does _not_ involve Matti getting possession of SW-adm privkey Mar 08 22:34:59 DocScrutinizer05, without access to nokia server, there is no alternative solution Mar 08 22:35:13 kerio: why fmrx-enabler? Mar 08 22:35:28 it goes like "matti sends xy file to NokiaCore. NokiaCore signs xy file with SW-adm key and sends back to Matti. Matti does...." Mar 08 22:35:37 DocScrutinizer05, nokia must update that invalid key (change it or exdent expiration) Mar 08 22:35:47 we cannot do anything with expired gpg key Mar 08 22:35:48 jacekowski: because it's from extras Mar 08 22:35:51 and we control extras Mar 08 22:36:07 DocScrutinizer05, matti has that gpg key Mar 08 22:36:16 HAM will ignore updates to packages that are originally from dmnc that come from extras Mar 08 22:36:17 so he can sign repos Mar 08 22:36:17 no, you said he doesn't Mar 08 22:36:39 DocScrutinizer05, matti needs permission from nokia to do that Mar 08 22:37:28 believe me, that might mean he does NOT have access to SW-adm-prickey, and that "permission2 implies he thinks Nokia will send that privkey to him for usage Mar 08 22:37:34 "I get comments from time to time expressing the mistaken notion that Hildon Foundation was founded just to save maemo.org, and it is not limited in that way." Mar 08 22:37:40 WTF? Mar 08 22:38:06 so the whole thing might never happen Mar 08 22:38:18 so the plan would be to sign repo with sw-adm key and distribute package with updated ssu key that way? Mar 08 22:38:41 unless we suggest a way how somebody else (here: NokiaCore) can use the SW-adm privkey to some file Matti sent Mar 08 22:38:43 jacekowski: the plan would be to sign repo with sw-adm key Mar 08 22:38:47 period Mar 08 22:38:56 and then what? Mar 08 22:39:00 what if we want to change it Mar 08 22:39:09 this is download.maemo.nokia.com Mar 08 22:39:10 jacekowski: nothing, it will start to work Mar 08 22:39:23 they won't change jack shit in it, realistically Mar 08 22:39:32 DocScrutinizer05, look at matti email, he wrote that he has that key Mar 08 22:39:38 jacekowski: RMO is a different animal Mar 08 22:39:42 jacekowski: the idea is to distribute an updated standard key via that new repo "revision" signed by SW-adm key Mar 08 22:39:56 DocScrutinizer05: we don;t really need that Mar 08 22:40:20 Pali: No, he said "we have that key", which can mean that NokiaCore has it Mar 08 22:40:28 DocScrutinizer05: that Matti dude already said that there's no way whatsoever to prepare a new PR Mar 08 22:40:51 is extras repo enabled by default on n900 (not extras devel) Mar 08 22:40:56 DocScrutinizer05: I doubt nokia will make an effort to make a new PR Mar 08 22:40:58 jacekowski: it is in pr1.2 onwards Mar 08 22:41:09 we don't need "a new PR" Mar 08 22:41:23 DocScrutinizer05: nokia doesn't release updates to single packages Mar 08 22:41:26 DocScrutinizer05: sure, but distribution of a new key means PR Mar 08 22:41:28 we need a new cert delivered via SSU Mar 08 22:41:28 so why don't we just distribute some core package in version 999999 using extras repo Mar 08 22:41:29 even for maemosec-certman they made a new pr Mar 08 22:41:35 DocScrutinizer05, I understand that matti has that key. but I sent new email so we can wait for responce Mar 08 22:41:38 jacekowski: because HAM will ignore it Mar 08 22:41:42 why? Mar 08 22:41:50 we can sign extras Mar 08 22:41:52 because of the fucking trust bullshit HAM does Mar 08 22:41:52 because it is the way HAM works Mar 08 22:41:56 I can ask him what is true (if he has key or not) Mar 08 22:42:08 freemangordon: "fucking trust bullshit" is the correct term, please be precise Mar 08 22:42:13 Pali: if you don't believe in my view on what this kind of mails means, then too bad Mar 08 22:42:16 kerio: ok, ok :) Mar 08 22:42:28 what trust stuff Mar 08 22:42:37 jacekowski: HAM has something similar to apt pinning Mar 08 22:42:38 it's a normal package signed with *trusted* key Mar 08 22:42:41 jacekowski: we *MIGHT* be able to do that, by using fmrx-enabler Mar 08 22:42:47 for me the fact that nothing happened since 6 weeks is obvious indication of what's actually going on Mar 08 22:42:50 but that wont reach 100% of the devices Mar 08 22:42:55 it's a normal package signed with a trusted key in a domain with trust level lower than nokia-system Mar 08 22:43:07 HAM /will/ ignore that package Mar 08 22:43:18 kerio: fmtx-enabler? Mar 08 22:43:21 Nokia will never allow to use SWadm key as standard signing key used on buildserver Mar 08 22:43:36 DocScrutinizer05: they don;t need it on their build server Mar 08 22:43:37 n900-fmtx-enabler comes from extras, so we could abuse that, but it's awful Mar 08 22:43:47 kerio: it is in PR too Mar 08 22:43:51 er, fmrx-enabler Mar 08 22:43:55 freemangordon: is it? Mar 08 22:44:04 kerio: so I am not sure what will be the outcome Mar 08 22:44:08 kerio: yes Mar 08 22:44:17 urgh, the highest version is from dmnc Mar 08 22:44:24 so that's probably bunk Mar 08 22:44:30 but I remember seeing it in HAM Mar 08 22:44:37 when upgrading pr1.2 -> pr1.3 Mar 08 22:44:39 freemangordon: because it's a user package Mar 08 22:44:49 that's irrelevant Mar 08 22:44:50 kerio: so maybe it will work after all Mar 08 22:45:02 freemangordon: HAM will only *increase* the trust level of a package Mar 08 22:45:05 never decrease it Mar 08 22:45:22 kerio: but right now nokia repo has 0 trust IIUC Mar 08 22:45:31 the package is at trust level 600 Mar 08 22:45:37 hmm, yes Mar 08 22:45:47 if we had a virgin n900 we could check Mar 08 22:45:52 we need a package that deploys new cert for standard key, in *some* pkg in SSU so it propagates to all devices. Then this new version of repo needs to get signed with SWadm key Mar 08 22:45:52 DocScrutinizer05: why hello there Mar 08 22:46:10 do you have a completely vanilla n900? Mar 08 22:46:29 DocScrutinizer05: no way nokia to release a single package Mar 08 22:46:49 freemangordon: why? Mar 08 22:46:58 well, thing is why do we care about ssu? Mar 08 22:47:15 jacekowski: you know, i'm not entirely sure Mar 08 22:47:15 for newly flashed devices, we can update fiasco with our keys Mar 08 22:47:16 all: I think that we can wait until matti wrote response Mar 08 22:47:27 DocScrutinizer05: remember what that nokian said - n900 is on some "aftermarket" support Mar 08 22:47:28 with invalid gpg key we cannot do nothing Mar 08 22:47:30 jacekowski: because no friggin luser can update/reinstall anything from Nokia repos anymore Mar 08 22:47:43 DocScrutinizer05: fwiw users aren't supposed to Mar 08 22:47:48 and all other devices have up to date stuff from nokia repos Mar 08 22:47:54 jacekowski: you can't even upgrade to PR1.3 after flashing Mar 08 22:48:02 the main issue is a user buying a new n900 or reflashing it and then not updating to 1.3.1 Mar 08 22:48:22 but then again, 1.3.1 won't help them against TURKTRUST anyway Mar 08 22:48:24 we can modify PR1.2 image to have our key Mar 08 22:48:32 dafaq! Mar 08 22:48:37 dafaq, indeed Mar 08 22:48:46 THAT's something Nokia will NOT do for us Mar 08 22:48:53 DocScrutinizer05: couldn't we use the excuse of turktrust to get nokia to release a security update? Mar 08 22:49:00 jacekowski, but this does not change gpg signature on nokia server! Mar 08 22:49:02 sure Mar 08 22:49:16 which is why they came to us Mar 08 22:49:16 Pali: move shit to our servers Mar 08 22:49:30 kerio: all of the maemo knowhow is non-existent in Nokia anymore Mar 08 22:49:33 kerio, I think no, because support for n900 finished... Mar 08 22:49:41 they just don;t know how to make a PR, I bet Mar 08 22:49:42 massive security issue on a nokia product! Mar 08 22:49:48 Pali: it is not Mar 08 22:49:55 there are still devices in warranty Mar 08 22:50:17 tablets-dev is down Mar 08 22:50:30 since forever :) Mar 08 22:50:37 I think that nokia care can work without gpg key Mar 08 22:50:45 they have pr 1.3.1 fiasco images Mar 08 22:50:49 (I have it too) Mar 08 22:50:54 what? Mar 08 22:50:57 ooh Mar 08 22:51:07 i think, correct way to deal with it would be to modify 1.2 image and change https://downloads.m Mar 08 22:51:08 hmm, that might work Mar 08 22:51:13 jacekowski: why 1.2? Mar 08 22:51:15 :s Mar 08 22:51:21 that's the latest "official" one Mar 08 22:51:21 yes, why PR1.2 Mar 08 22:51:22 ? Mar 08 22:51:22 1,2????? Mar 08 22:51:30 jacekowski: no, it is PR1.3 Mar 08 22:51:31 also, again - this is not an issue for any "future" release we make Mar 08 22:51:32 DocScrutinizer05, what about publishing pr1.3.1 fiasco image?? Mar 08 22:51:43 Pali: with fixed keys? Mar 08 22:51:49 hell, we could put cssu-stable in there with fixed keys and all that jazz Mar 08 22:51:50 with that security update? Mar 08 22:51:54 nice but not exacly a root solution Mar 08 22:52:04 the issue is existing n900s in the hand of lusers Mar 08 22:52:08 because people cannot update to pr1.3.1 Mar 08 22:52:11 (they do exist!) Mar 08 22:52:15 i think, correct way to deal with it would be to modify 1.2 image and change https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/apps/ ./ to like https://nokia.maemo.org/fremantle/ssu/apps/ Mar 08 22:52:26 and change nokia key to our key Mar 08 22:52:31 and pr1.3.1 is security update Mar 08 22:52:39 WTF !:"???? Mar 08 22:52:44 1.2 even Mar 08 22:52:51 or even 1.3.1 Mar 08 22:52:58 we got PR1.3 fiasco Mar 08 22:53:00 but then, 1.3.1 will never need SSU Mar 08 22:53:13 and we got NO PR1.3.1 fiasco Mar 08 22:53:24 I have it Mar 08 22:53:25 we can make one Mar 08 22:53:37 and it can be downloaded from nokia.com Mar 08 22:53:39 thus when somebody reflashes, he can't update to PR1.3.1 Mar 08 22:53:48 we can make 1.3.1 fiasco Mar 08 22:53:52 or 1.5 if we want to Mar 08 22:54:00 so what? Mar 08 22:54:07 I *have* official nokia pr 1.3.1 image! Mar 08 22:54:08 we want SSU fixed Mar 08 22:55:10 DocScrutinizer05, wait for matti email Mar 08 22:55:26 we can create a pr1.3.1 any time, and provide it, or use the existing one (first time I hear of it) - but that's absolutely unrelated to our expired-key issue with Matti Mar 08 22:55:48 if we have latest fiasco image we don't need SSU anymore Mar 08 22:56:04 it's not like anything is going to be ever released through there Mar 08 22:56:18 jacekowski, we need ssu Mar 08 22:56:28 ssu has packages which are not in fiasco image Mar 08 22:56:37 and some extras apps depends on them Mar 08 22:56:46 what you suggested to Matti so far been "use SW-adm key instead of SSU key" which implies that SW-adm key would get installed unlocked and with password on production server to resign the repo Mar 08 22:56:53 so you will not able to install more extras packages Mar 08 22:57:02 we need to offer an alternative since that will *not* happen Mar 08 22:57:03 DocScrutinizer05: no Mar 08 22:57:20 DocScrutinizer05: all they have to do is sign one file with SW-adm key Mar 08 22:57:38 Pali: what about moving that stuff into extras Mar 08 22:57:41 jacekowski: yes, *I* know that Mar 08 22:57:51 DocScrutinizer05, I think you do not understand how apt gpg working Mar 08 22:58:00 but matti does NOT know it, believe me Mar 08 22:58:14 Pali: ooh, i don't ?? Mar 08 22:58:22 DocScrutinizer05, what what matti wrote and we can ask him more Mar 08 22:58:28 or write possible solutions Mar 08 22:58:46 you see what matti wrote last two answers Mar 08 22:59:10 yes I see and I think he know how to update it Mar 08 22:59:12 if you don't trust in my capabilities to read and interprete such mails.... Mar 08 22:59:26 I tell you he doesn't Mar 08 22:59:45 ok, I will wait for answer Mar 08 22:59:49 there is another option Mar 08 23:00:03 we can factorize that key Mar 08 23:00:18 I can already tell you his answer: "we're still thinking. there were more important things" Mar 08 23:00:50 jacekowski, I will look at that key Mar 08 23:00:53 now, you know the answer he'll send on tuesday, what you gonna do? Mar 08 23:01:37 well, do we know physical location of that key Mar 08 23:01:40 jacekowski: 1024bit DSA Mar 08 23:01:43 "we are thinking" means they don't exactly understand how to proceed Mar 08 23:01:50 can we apply rubberhose cryptoanalysis? Mar 08 23:02:16 pffft Mar 08 23:02:35 thermorectal cryptoanalysis you mean? Mar 08 23:02:37 i feel that maemo could go much better if we had access to a ninja squad to storm the nokia HQ and steal the source code Mar 08 23:02:41 and "we are thinking2 been exactly their last two answers Mar 08 23:03:02 DocScrutinizer05: how good do you look in a black ninja suit? Mar 08 23:03:46 watch my "avatar" on tmo. Do you think I'm one of the guys that need a black ninja siut? Mar 08 23:04:02 in the "company" wwe have othwer dresscode Mar 08 23:04:40 leather? Mar 08 23:05:45 if needed, eventually also leather (mostly jacket) - but "the men in black" term been minted for a reason Mar 08 23:06:11 and plack doesn't imply ninja siut Mar 08 23:06:21 black* (damn) Mar 08 23:08:19 honestly, our suggestion to Matti been bogus. a proper fix needs a new cert deployed fro standard key which holds valid for another few years. Simply resigning current repo with SWadm key doesn't really fix stuff Mar 08 23:09:13 jacekowski, key is DES1 (1024 bit) with SHA1 self signature Mar 08 23:09:27 since for next change that might be needed we again face same problem that we don't have access to SWadm private key Mar 08 23:10:34 and I bet Nokia(Matti) came to us asking for that expired-key issue *because* they want to deploy a turksat security update Mar 08 23:12:30 so pretty please rethink your suggestions to Matti and adapt them accordingly, so we get a *roper* fix incl ned standard cert for SSU/Nokia repo, plus no implied need to install SWadm privkey to production server (which won't happen, and yes it's not needed but that's what Nokia did so far with keys for repos, so they assume it's same deal with SWadm key as well) Mar 08 23:12:54 s/*rop/*prop/ Mar 08 23:12:56 DocScrutinizer05 meant: so pretty please rethink your suggestions to Matti and adapt them accordingly, so we get a *proper* fix incl ned standard cert for SSU/Nokia repo, plus no implied need to install SWadm privkey to production server (which won't happen, and yes it's not nee... Mar 08 23:13:17 s/ ned / new / Mar 08 23:13:17 DocScrutinizer05 meant: so pretty please rethink your suggestions to Matti and adapt them accordingly, so we get a *roper* fix incl new standard cert for SSU/Nokia repo, plus no implied need to install SWadm privkey to production server (which won't happen, and yes it's not need... Mar 08 23:14:43 DocScrutinizer05, here is link for PR.1.3.1 fiasco image: http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin Mar 08 23:15:07 Aarnio? Mar 08 23:16:55 sigh... OptFS, filesystem corrupt. Too many errors, trialocated block could not be resolved? This sounds not good. Mar 08 23:17:25 Sounds like the time I ran fsck on optfs Mar 08 23:17:44 Make a backup first. :) Mar 08 23:18:35 Went to make my montly backup and it errored about 50 files for "stale NFS handle". Mar 08 23:18:52 Which is why I went to fsck in the first place. Mar 08 23:19:15 I'm hoping restoring Feb's backup and overlaying the one I just did on top of it will fix it. Mar 08 23:19:48 Thank the gods for RobbieThe1st and backupmenu.... Mar 08 23:32:49 ShadowJK: DocScrutinizer05: glue didn't work either did reverse drill or making a slot in the head to use a flat screwdriver Mar 08 23:33:08 s/either/neither/ Mar 08 23:33:08 sixwheeledbeast meant: ShadowJK: DocScrutinizer05: glue didn't work neither did reverse drill or making a slot in the head to use a flat screwdriver Mar 08 23:33:42 :( Mar 08 23:34:00 me thinks it was buggered to start with Mar 08 23:34:12 I'd lose patience and reverse-HSS drill it Mar 08 23:34:55 took the head off with a dremmel and even pliers will not budge it Mar 08 23:35:23 DocScrutinizer05: turksat? Mar 08 23:35:32 if it was larger, I would suggest welding Mar 08 23:35:58 at least i can get in to look at the faulty ribbon now. Mar 08 23:47:05 * ShadowJK hasn't tried welding so far :-) Mar 08 23:48:43 welding! this isn't an old fiat! :-D Mar 08 23:50:53 (or alfa romeo, of any age) Mar 08 23:55:07 unthreaded screw? Mar 08 23:56:25 The original issue was that hte screw didn't budge Mar 08 23:56:29 the head snapped off Mar 08 23:56:37 he tried to glue the head back on Mar 08 23:58:36 a bit of epossidic glue would fix without damage the parts Mar 09 00:02:59 epossidic? Mar 09 00:05:41 epoxy glue (bi-component) Mar 09 00:07:48 jacekowski: turktrust ;-D Mar 09 00:09:07 sixwheeledbeast: one lousy screw borked is no disaster on screen Mar 09 00:11:17 DocScrutinizer05: nice to here, stud is still in there so not expecting much movement with the other five screws in Mar 09 00:16:33 sixwheeledbeast: you could drill it out, fill the hole with epoxy, and drill a new hole with thread after that (or without thread, depending on type of screw) Mar 09 00:16:50 or you simply ignore the "problem" Mar 09 00:17:14 DocScrutinizer05: IYO is it worth it? Mar 09 00:23:31 oh well, finished reading meeting logs. I will think about the screw "problem" in the morning. gn all. Mar 09 01:08:11 Yay! My N900 booted again! Backupmenu saves the day, again... Mar 09 01:14:31 :-) Mar 09 01:38:49 hi Mar 09 01:40:54 hello Mar 09 01:46:19 for those who don't follow tmo without somebody pointing them to something (like I usually do): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89387 Mar 09 01:49:54 Shuffling chairs on the Titanic? Mar 09 01:54:40 I just posted a thread on tmo about this, but is soappy python module available for n900? Mar 09 02:14:15 ...Methods of transportation include the US Postal system, transporting it by hand to an office representing the charity, or sending each bill individually with an avian organism. Mar 09 02:17:22 LOL Mar 09 02:56:39 Thanks Doc. I guess I should register as part of the Community. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 09 02:59:59 2013