**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jul 22 02:59:58 2013 Jul 22 04:48:13 hi all Jul 22 04:48:22 is there feedly like in meamo? Jul 22 04:48:35 I also looking for google+ client , any idea? Jul 22 06:43:47 interesting Jul 22 06:44:03 just got the same issue again - this time I simply waited, issuing "df -h" every now andd then to see what happened and if it would fix itself Jul 22 06:44:29 and indeed - after 2 minutes of waiting - python bindmounts was done Jul 22 06:44:53 and the cpumem-appled showed no significant load at all Jul 22 06:45:15 that's a pretty long wait IMO, but at least it does do its' job if you're patient Jul 22 06:52:21 Yeah I usually wait around a minute or two after bootup before doing anything with my N900. Jul 22 08:30:25 hi all Jul 22 08:30:27 is there appliction like feedly? Jul 22 08:30:29 I love to get update to my rss Jul 22 08:59:03 GOOGLE Jul 22 09:28:34 moro Jul 22 09:32:07 moro Jul 22 09:32:49 hey psycho_oreos FIQ Jul 22 09:32:57 hi Jul 22 09:33:00 hi DocScrutinizer05 Jul 22 09:33:06 I now finally think I have a nice explanation Jul 22 09:33:15 For that python issue? Jul 22 09:33:33 didn't you say you installed some huge map data or whatever, FIQ? Jul 22 09:33:45 I installed what? Jul 22 09:34:01 not? Jul 22 09:34:03 map data.. I don't use ovi maps or any equavilent on maemo Jul 22 09:34:12 :-S Jul 22 09:34:28 dang, thought I had a story Jul 22 09:34:50 (there's 2 reasons to that actually, 1 I don't need it, 2 my GPS seems broken, possibly caused by me feeding my N900 once) Jul 22 09:34:52 aaah wait, you rstored Jul 22 09:35:05 also huge data written to ext3 Jul 22 09:35:11 I restored the optfs yes, BUT Jul 22 09:35:13 * psycho_oreos is reminded he needs to redo up that entire world map data again, after 30+ times in fsck.ext3 rendered the majority of the map data corrupted. Jul 22 09:35:16 the issue existed before that as wel Jul 22 09:35:23 *well Jul 22 09:35:43 just that I never bothered to actually look into it Jul 22 09:36:39 DocScrutinizer05: I'm still interested to hear your theory though Jul 22 09:37:01 anyway my story goes like this: ext3 is a journalling fs, and on mount the journal gets replayed, which can take ages depending on size. and all that won't show up in cpu-load-applet since kernel stuff Jul 22 09:37:41 perhaps Jul 22 09:37:53 would there be a solution to that? Jul 22 09:38:08 sure, clean umounts Jul 22 09:38:39 but this issue, wouldn't it cause a significant delay at the initial mount but not otherwise? Jul 22 09:38:49 i.e. the mount of the /opt partition, not the bindmounts Jul 22 09:38:49 yep Jul 22 09:39:07 that's right I *guess* Jul 22 09:39:37 Binding mounts doesn't really require replaying journal because binding mounts aren't real mounts imo. Jul 22 09:39:42 btw I wonder another thing regarding fsck Jul 22 09:39:55 as you're aware, fsck completely messed up the partition earlier Jul 22 09:40:01 and fsck blamed on a mounted partition Jul 22 09:40:14 allthough this isn't *really* relevant atm, I wonder what caused it in first place Jul 22 09:40:21 I wonder if this is due to the drive being a flash drive? Jul 22 09:40:33 afaik things aren't written the order they're issued Jul 22 09:41:53 and thus, fsck's actions would get messed up Jul 22 09:42:13 on a less tired-flawed think a fsck on a mounted partition is *always* an idiotic thing to do, sorry for suggesting it Jul 22 09:42:27 I didn't do that Jul 22 09:42:43 as I said yesterday, I fsck-ed in the BM root terminal Jul 22 09:42:56 and in this environment, mmcblk0p2 isn't mounted Jul 22 09:43:01 that should work Jul 22 09:43:18 yet, fsck said "WARNING: BUG IN E2FSCK, OR SOME BONEHEAD (YOU) IS CHECKING A MOUNTED PARTITION" Jul 22 09:43:35 (or whatever the exact error message is) Jul 22 09:43:59 I halted execution of the fsck once it said that, and verified it wasn't mounted Jul 22 09:44:02 and indeed it wasn't Jul 22 09:44:02 yes, I encountered similr problem years ago, something odd with this stuff Jul 22 09:44:34 fsck has different sources to get info about mounted state. sometimes these sources get out of sync Jul 22 09:44:52 e.g mount and /proc/mounts Jul 22 09:44:56 basically, what I asked was if the inconsistency was caused by the drive being a flash drive Jul 22 09:45:12 as I assumed fsck did that assumption because things changed in unexpected ways Jul 22 09:45:22 no, I think it's a falw in maemo or in fsck Jul 22 09:45:29 ok Jul 22 09:46:22 Hi, i still have the same problem :) I found that tech spec says the standby time should be within: 12.0 days (288 hours) , and talk time: 6.30 hours Jul 22 09:46:29 might be related to kernel renaming /dev/mmcblk0 to mmcblk1 Jul 22 09:46:38 and vice versa Jul 22 09:47:04 As long as i see, my handset lasts over 24 h. Mixed time, talk/standby. So the max standby time is over 2 days Jul 22 09:47:16 XATRIX: *UP TO...* Jul 22 09:47:27 How can i check/improve my system Jul 22 09:47:38 interesting fact: earlier I had a corrupted FAT (MyDocs) - this issue was even worse to begin with, but fsck managed to solve all issues just fine - and yet it failed miserably on a much less corrupted FS (the fat partition had a lot of issues, optfs had 4 corrupted files and some index issue somewhere, as seen by fsck -nv before) Jul 22 09:47:40 move closer to BTS Jul 22 09:47:49 get your own BTS Jul 22 09:48:10 don't allow any inbound anf for sure no outbound traffic Jul 22 09:48:22 BTS ? Jul 22 09:48:29 increst T3212 timer to insanely high values Jul 22 09:48:33 ~bts Jul 22 09:48:33 hmm... bts is Please check the Debian bug tracking system at http://bugs.debian.org before reporting bugs in testing or sid -- it's more likely to help you than IRC users are. If you don't find your issue please consider reporting it. Jul 22 09:48:43 ~useless Jul 22 09:48:44 * infobot starts crying and hides from docscrutinizer05 in the darkest corner of the room. :( Jul 22 09:48:45 base station? Jul 22 09:48:51 base transmitter station Jul 22 09:49:03 also called cell tower Jul 22 09:49:04 ah transmitter was the 2nd word Jul 22 09:49:33 :) Jul 22 09:49:41 You really think that it is possible ? Jul 22 09:50:01 sure!! Jul 22 09:50:35 at 27C3 and at chaos communication congress we had our very own BTS ;-D Jul 22 09:50:58 thanks to Harald Welte, Zecke, and other guys of osmocom Jul 22 09:51:10 is setting up a private bts even legal? Jul 22 09:51:22 not without a permission Jul 22 09:51:30 afaik, at least in my country, you need a permission from the operator Jul 22 09:51:47 There are possible tune up tips to maximise battery usage such as probably using the lowest setting for backlight, having the screen timeout (screen turns off) helps. Also don't have too many background tasks running. I'm not sure if autodisconnect is recommended still but that is a nifty thing to have when setup correctly. Jul 22 09:51:50 to verify that the equipment wont have the opposite issue and make signal worse instead (for you, and others in close range) Jul 22 09:51:59 yes, you definitely need a permission, dunno if from operatior or some institution Jul 22 09:52:25 Even worse you could also abuse that BTS priviledge by doing MITM evesdropping ;) Jul 22 09:52:27 we got a lab test permission for one channel for a small area for a week or two Jul 22 09:52:48 was only a few 100 bucks Jul 22 09:53:05 "only" Jul 22 09:53:09 "a week or two" Jul 22 09:53:17 yeah that's nothing Jul 22 09:53:30 *"only a few 100 bucks" Jul 22 09:54:25 I don't think its to just benefit them, the license to use certain bands are regulated by government or at least federal agencies. Jul 22 09:54:55 Those licenses aren't cheap. Jul 22 09:55:17 FIQ: I just tell you how those standby upper limits get evaluated by manufacturers Jul 22 09:55:40 true Jul 22 09:56:14 it's as fake as the L/100km (miles / gallon, for our imperial friends) Jul 22 09:56:46 you never can reach that Jul 22 09:57:01 and actually I'm talking to XATRIX Jul 22 09:57:03 :-) Jul 22 09:58:59 I'm in the center of our capital :( Jul 22 10:00:30 XATRIX: when your device sits idle, with no APN configured (GSM "offline"), and no WLAN, just listening to BTS for inbound calls, you still might encounter bad luck and your device is at the boundary line between two BTS of different local-area(-codes), and does a cell reselection every minute due to natural fluctuations in signal strength from both BTS Jul 22 10:01:08 sorry Jul 22 10:01:10 hi dockane_ Jul 22 10:01:14 DocScrutinizer05, what up Jul 22 10:01:23 Hm Jul 22 10:01:28 I am looking for feedly like in maemo Jul 22 10:01:30 any idea? Jul 22 10:01:35 and in center of a capital cell diameters are particularly small, often only a few 100m Jul 22 10:01:49 But why does it try to reassign the BTS station if there already is a good qual. link between ? Jul 22 10:02:23 DrCode: sorry, nope Jul 22 10:02:27 ~pkg Jul 22 10:02:28 i guess pkg is http://maemo.org/packages/ Jul 22 10:02:40 and google+ ? Jul 22 10:02:48 ok Jul 22 10:03:16 XATRIX: google for GSM C1 C2 cell handover criterion Jul 22 10:03:39 :( C1 and C2 is a sleep states of the CPU ? Jul 22 10:04:28 XATRIX: it doesn't matter how good the signal is in absolute dB, it's just the question if neighbour cell is C1/2 dB better than serving cell Jul 22 10:05:10 BTS will tell mobile about the C1/2 threshold Jul 22 10:05:25 Even if this 'better' cell is from another provider ? Jul 22 10:05:44 cell reselection / handover is not a simple thing Jul 22 10:05:49 when I am in terminal or in xchat its very small, can I zoom it or somthing? Jul 22 10:05:55 XATRIX: obviously not Jul 22 10:06:29 XATRIX: that's called roaming then and happens only when zero own cells are available to mobile Jul 22 10:07:14 DrCode: in xterm it's simple: use volume keys Jul 22 10:07:41 in xchat you need to select huger font in settings Jul 22 10:08:00 wow , ok , thankyou Jul 22 10:08:25 I have my mobile only 3 days and Its defiantly the best phone I had Jul 22 10:09:19 yeah, n900 defiantly refuses to die Jul 22 10:09:22 ;-) Jul 22 10:10:15 DocScrutinizer05: what device are you using ? :) != n900? Jul 22 10:10:38 n900, what else Jul 22 10:10:59 amazing Jul 22 10:12:27 I guess when I would switch to sth else before I used up my 6 working N900, some troll will pop up and beat me to death with a bag of chips and other smd components Jul 22 10:15:18 I am using Mail for exchange for work mail and Imap for gmail , I am using eminnig-ng to sync gmail clander Jul 22 10:15:28 but I didn't found way to sync contact to gmail Jul 22 10:15:40 MFE have only one account Jul 22 10:15:56 also is it possible to save my contact into SIM? Jul 22 10:16:08 or better to leave it in gmail? Jul 22 10:16:09 no Jul 22 10:16:23 you only can import from SIM Jul 22 10:16:30 ok Jul 22 10:16:41 how can I sync my contact to gmail? Jul 22 10:16:56 I use Mail For Eschange to download all my contact to maemo Jul 22 10:17:07 then I delete this account and connect to my work mail Jul 22 10:20:03 I don't think there are simple ways to sync to google contacts (and I'm kinda happy about that, since it increases the chances that my contact data will not be sold to google) Jul 22 10:20:45 not by me but by others who think sharing my contact data to whatever rogue public free service was a good idea Jul 22 10:21:22 ok Jul 22 10:21:41 U are right Jul 22 10:21:53 but I will be able to export my contact if I need Jul 22 10:22:06 particularly lovely mates make facebook and linkedin spam me with invitation mails Jul 22 10:22:26 its uncalled for Jul 22 10:22:41 I had problem also with youtube Jul 22 10:22:58 all 3 appliction dosn't work any more with youtube Jul 22 10:23:14 it load player and shutdown Jul 22 10:24:51 hmm Jul 22 10:25:58 [2013-07-20 18:09:59] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIOBSUSAikY --- just works (with some stuttering in video but OK audio) --- in microB Jul 22 10:26:59 ok, you won't want to watch real movies this way, particularly not via AV on big TV screen Jul 22 10:27:54 fekkin HD videos in youtube don't even play nicely on my i5 Jul 22 10:29:40 ok Jul 22 10:30:03 DocScrutinizer05, do U use yappari? Jul 22 10:30:13 whats up client Jul 22 10:30:31 otoh I actually use N900 as VDR to playback DrHouse.mp4 to my TV Jul 22 10:31:01 DrCode: nope, I don't think I know of a single usecase for that nonsense Jul 22 10:31:18 ok Jul 22 10:31:29 thankyou again Jul 22 10:31:59 I don't use facehook or myChase or litter either Jul 22 10:33:21 nd until recently I even refused to open litter html pages in my webbrowser since they usually resulted in a all blank page with a tiny blueish bird in one corner, after minutes of loading time Jul 22 10:36:23 I can see how certain groups of people can make decent use of twitter (see the twitter revolution in arab coutries), but honestly I prefer hashtag-maemo(IRC) to hashtag-dunnowhat(twitter) Jul 22 10:38:05 and AIUI that wattsap stuff is eeven a knock-off of a knowck-off Jul 22 10:38:25 dang, keep the typos Jul 22 10:40:43 your browser must be broken if it takes minutes to load twitter Jul 22 10:41:03 my browser is configured in a sane way Jul 22 10:41:20 which is showcased by it needing minutes to load twitter, you were about to say Jul 22 10:41:23 e.g disabled JS and Java and other plugins Jul 22 10:41:28 a website that loads near instant even on my netbook Jul 22 10:41:38 i enable JS on a per-site basis Jul 22 10:42:10 oh, apple dev center was down because of an 'intruder' Jul 22 10:42:30 http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Screen-Shot-2013-07-21-at-8.09.35-PM-640x570.png Jul 22 10:42:47 and what makes you think I'd bear with using a broken browser? Jul 22 10:43:25 you use firefox Jul 22 10:43:35 it works excellent with 99% of webpages - except those that abuse BS undefined features only available in one or two mainstream browsers Jul 22 10:44:19 you use assumptions Jul 22 10:44:42 thats because its fun to use assumptions Jul 22 12:13:38 Found a wifi Bleeding edge drivers applet for tray Jul 22 12:14:01 Will try to experiment, maybe if it completely disable kernel module Jul 22 12:14:06 it will save some power Jul 22 12:14:28 I know it's stupid, and will save 0.00009 W :)) but i will try to Jul 22 12:37:09 GRRR http://privatepaste.com/72193ea717 6 processes alive, 8 zombified Jul 22 12:38:29 actually 5/9 Jul 22 12:42:45 zombies are undead processes Jul 22 12:49:35 XATRIX: nope it wont Jul 22 12:50:54 stock maemo already does exactly this (unload wlan driver kernel module) since otherwise wlan chip will eat *way* more than 0.00009 W while scanning for APs all the time Jul 22 12:51:30 bleeding edge drivers won't help anything there, rather they make things worse Jul 22 12:52:42 No, i'm not going to use bleeding edge DRIVERS, i'm gonna use applet Jul 22 12:52:48 To unload kernel module from Jul 22 12:53:23 congrats, it likely will mess up system level stuff doing exactly same Jul 22 12:54:26 ~crappatch Jul 22 12:54:27 rumour has it, speedpatch is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1012405#post1012405 >>first i don't realy understand what does this patch do (that is why it is called miracle patch)<< [/quote original-author-of-speedpatch] Jul 22 12:54:50 might also help ;-D Jul 22 12:56:35 ~jrtools Jul 22 12:56:35 hmm... jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools Jul 22 12:57:04 **DO NOT install speedpatch, batterypatch, or auto-disconnect _ever_!! All three do not uninstall and do not work.** Jul 22 12:57:28 seems that applet is of category auto-disconnect, just it is not "auto" Jul 22 12:58:24 Why not ? Jul 22 12:58:36 I never saw system utils unload wifi Jul 22 12:58:41 never ever! Jul 22 12:58:55 It simply constantly scans area for available wlans Jul 22 12:59:12 well, then maybe because with PR1.2 they fixed rfkill Jul 22 12:59:39 and BULLSHIT, see settings of internet connections, for scan period Jul 22 13:00:13 if yours does constant scan for APs, then you already *did* mess up your system, by any such "patch" Jul 22 13:01:15 Ok, i have Auto-connect = WLAN , scanning interval = Never in "internet connections" section Jul 22 13:01:41 But if i open system tray app, and click connections, it always shows me available wlans Jul 22 13:01:44 what do you think the Nokia devels means by "scanning interval = Never"? Jul 22 13:01:58 * DocScrutinizer05 headdesks Jul 22 13:02:12 SURE it does, since you *asked* for it Jul 22 13:02:18 I mean the scanning interval FOR WLANS i was previousely connected to Jul 22 13:03:25 No, you're talking about the auto-scan->autoconnect feature. And i'm talking about idle mode Jul 22 13:03:41 UHUH Jul 22 13:03:53 define idle-mode please Jul 22 13:03:55 In idle mode it still shows me available networks in area i can connect to Jul 22 13:04:09 SINCE YOU ASKEd FOR IT!! Jul 22 13:04:24 Only after i click it ? Jul 22 13:04:34 Of COURSE it does a AP scan as soon as you open "networks" Jul 22 13:04:55 :( Jul 22 13:04:57 what the heck else is it supposed to do?? Jul 22 13:05:36 tell you "sorry dude, you said >never scan for APs<, this function is not available!"?? Jul 22 13:05:49 I thought i always scans for available networks, and connects only when i click the needed one Jul 22 13:05:56 no Jul 22 13:06:30 you can see pretty easily from slow filling of list of available APs that this is a realtime scan initiated by you opening the selection list Jul 22 13:07:02 it's done ONLY when you open the list of available networks Jul 22 13:07:16 when you set scan interval = never Jul 22 13:07:52 Sounds if it is... Jul 22 13:07:57 the devels of this stuff not been that thick Jul 22 13:11:03 we actually had that problem of WLAN chip eating massive from battery on PR1.0. In Pr1.1 (iirc) it been fixed by unloading kernel driver as a workaround. Again iirc with PR1.2 the rfkill got fixed in driver, so kernel driver unload wasn't needed anymore. Maybe your applet is from PR1.0 times Jul 22 13:11:49 Possibly Jul 22 13:12:19 Does rfkill disable TX only or both ? Jul 22 13:12:35 please don't use it, it will mess up the pretty flawlessly working WLAN handling done by ICD2 and relatives Jul 22 13:12:38 It sounds as a radiofrequencykill swich Jul 22 13:13:17 rfkill is a API iirc, that allows power-mode handling of all radio stuff Jul 22 13:13:24 google for rfkill Jul 22 13:21:44 Ok Jul 22 13:21:48 But wait Jul 22 13:22:10 rfkill doesn't disable blutooth simultaneously with wif-fi Jul 22 13:22:13 It's separate Jul 22 13:22:28 And rfkill isn't connected to GSM Jul 22 13:23:30 https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/rfkill.txt Jul 22 13:23:47 you don't want to bother about it Jul 22 13:23:56 maemo does that for you Jul 22 13:29:36 possibly maemo's ancient kernel even does pre-rfkill generic powermode handling of rf-systems Jul 22 13:29:52 but it does *some* *working* handling anyway Jul 22 13:30:10 since PR1.2 the latest Jul 22 13:30:55 there are tablet-mode and airplane-mode apps for powerbutton-menu Jul 22 13:31:14 Yea Jul 22 13:31:17 I saw it Jul 22 13:31:28 It completely disables all the radio Jul 22 13:31:58 while tablet-mode only shuts down GSM modem, airplane mode shuts down everything. For all other finegrained stuff like not constantly running WLAN chip in power-greedy AP scan mode, ISC2 is responsible Jul 22 13:32:29 ICD2 Jul 22 13:33:39 honestly, you don't want to waste your time and ruin your system config to try and improve what's already there in stock maemo. You can't get any better on it Jul 22 13:34:18 most definitely not by installing random applets Jul 22 13:36:49 This thesis i can't argue with... Jul 22 13:38:39 if you suffer from WLAN created battery drain then that's caused by too frequent AP scan during times where no WLAN is in vicinity that's suitable for associating to it. You may want to change interval to "never" in that case Jul 22 13:39:18 interval of "5minutes" is known to somewhat drain battery under certain circumstances (not associated) Jul 22 13:40:03 also those cyclic wlan scans are known to cause dropouts in BT audio listening - e.g while jogging and listening to mp3 Jul 22 13:40:49 you can easily verify by comparing periodicity of dropouts with interval set for wlan scans in "internet settings" Jul 22 13:41:25 no surprise since wlan and BT share same subsystem, via hardware coexistence interface Jul 22 13:42:39 DocScrutinizer05: does it try to scan even if you are not trying to connect? Jul 22 13:42:43 Yea, since today, i started to finally realize how it works here Jul 22 13:43:44 someone turn off the heating Jul 22 13:43:51 +1 Jul 22 13:45:43 jon_y: see interval= setting Jul 22 13:46:21 DocScrutinizer05: so it still does? Jul 22 13:46:34 where is that setting? Jul 22 13:46:37 how do I set it? Jul 22 13:46:38 jon_y: unless you've set interval=never or auto-connect=never, maemo is an always-online system Jul 22 13:46:47 ok :P Jul 22 13:46:51 yes, I never do auto connect Jul 22 13:47:31 Sicelo: settings->internet Jul 22 13:48:46 ok, thanks Jul 22 13:50:02 maemo(5) doesn't tear down internet connection as soon as "nobody is using it" - like e.g android does afaik. Rather it relies on powersaving mode (PSM) for WLAN, and on carrier side firewalling of inbound unsolicited packets spam for GPRS Jul 22 13:50:20 a passive GPRS connection eats some 2mA Jul 22 13:50:34 no use in shutting it down Jul 22 13:52:25 a idle WLAN connection on maximum (and working) PSM probably needs even less Jul 22 13:54:14 and that's btw one of the properties the hardcore maemo fans love most about this system: it's always ready to react on arbitrary inbound traffic, be it IRC, or IM, or any other service Jul 22 13:55:01 its a PC, not a glorified phone Jul 22 13:55:12 does android really tear idle connections down? Jul 22 13:55:22 no Jul 22 13:55:35 iirc windows phone does Jul 22 13:55:38 unlike most other mobile/embedded OS where you will see your IRC client go offline as soon as you lock the screen Jul 22 13:56:02 ios doesnt go iffline, nor does android Jul 22 13:56:07 offline* Jul 22 13:56:31 anyway, i know android is always generating traffic :P Jul 22 13:57:05 is it because it is telling google about your latests rendezvous? :) Jul 22 13:57:14 yes Jul 22 13:58:06 yfw when big borther's image get sold to the masses as a caring big brother rather than a scary telescreen telling you what to do Jul 22 13:58:17 first iPhone concept been all about webservices, means *nothing* gets done locally, you always only connect to some central services via a glorified webbrowser Jul 22 13:58:26 remember to pick up your kids after your groceries! Jul 22 13:58:56 then they noticed that this means your whole device stops working as soon as you lose connectivity Jul 22 13:59:23 which are the mobile/os's that are part of your 'most mobile/embedded OS's" Jul 22 14:01:34 I'm using a dumb phone while my N900 is put in coldstorage for preservation Jul 22 14:01:40 we had a time of laughter and hilarity at openmoko and before, during that Jul 22 14:02:08 since evry fool can see without any sight aid that this never will fly Jul 22 14:02:39 well, can't get a phone here unless it had some huge huge backing from service providers Jul 22 14:02:49 like Lumia, for awhile Jul 22 14:02:57 and then it's all Galaxy S Jul 22 14:03:13 and iphones Jul 22 14:03:31 they tried with lumias here, but people dont want windows in their pocket Jul 22 14:03:33 there aren't any variety at all, they're all the same Jul 22 14:04:01 looks like everyone is racing to be the same Jul 22 14:04:16 the thinest anorexic phone, the widest screen Jul 22 14:04:35 they don't even fit in my pocket anymore Jul 22 14:04:53 and if they do, bending over splits the screen Jul 22 14:05:05 :( Jul 22 14:05:21 N9 is still my favorite smartphone form factor Jul 22 14:05:27 yeah, I get weird looks at office when I take out my dumb phone Jul 22 14:05:28 perfect size, shape and weight Jul 22 14:05:28 ((looks like everyone is racing to be the same)) that's how apple mesmerizes the industry, as paralleled by how they hypnotize their customers Jul 22 14:05:50 apple is a good brand Jul 22 14:05:55 DocScrutinizer05: none of the manufacturers dare make something different Jul 22 14:05:55 they can sell manure as perfume Jul 22 14:06:13 cause status quo makes profit Jul 22 14:06:23 thats not entire true tho Jul 22 14:06:26 samsung does try things Jul 22 14:06:43 currently samsung, in relation to weirdo phone designs, took over Nokia's place Jul 22 14:06:49 even tho Nokia had much crazier designs Jul 22 14:06:52 I'm waiting for one with hard keyboard Jul 22 14:06:59 there's several droids which have that Jul 22 14:07:06 and not blackberry Jul 22 14:07:20 and not blackberry style keyboards that eat half the screen Jul 22 14:07:23 Nokia once did a real step towards breaking new ground with their organizers, but when it came to N9 they got hynotized by "iPhone is THE BIBLE" as everybody else Jul 22 14:07:41 N9 is nice, the N950 was better Jul 22 14:07:48 s/organizers/communicators/ Jul 22 14:07:49 DocScrutinizer05 meant: Nokia once did a real step towards breaking new ground with their communicators, but when it came to N9 they got hynotized by "iPhone is THE BIBLE" as everybody else Jul 22 14:08:00 too bad the iphone happened Jul 22 14:09:02 N9 is a phone Jul 22 14:09:07 the problem is not that iphone is the bible Jul 22 14:09:09 that's it Jul 22 14:09:10 that problem is that people love iphones Jul 22 14:09:17 and that iphone set a standard Jul 22 14:09:30 nokia had to adapt Jul 22 14:09:44 nobody *has to* adapt Jul 22 14:09:47 they do Jul 22 14:09:52 Nokia is not Apple Jul 22 14:09:56 Apple cant make the people adapt Jul 22 14:09:58 can* Jul 22 14:10:00 Nokia cant do that Jul 22 14:10:03 Nokia was doing fine before they announced lumia Jul 22 14:10:05 Nokia can only adapt to the people Jul 22 14:10:07 fine? Jul 22 14:10:09 are you silly? Jul 22 14:10:28 yes, stocks still going up, until burning platform Jul 22 14:10:36 that doesnt mean its doing fine Jul 22 14:10:50 nokia would sooner or later have ran into troubles with symbian and low-cost phones Jul 22 14:11:06 Elop just made it all worse Jul 22 14:11:08 problem is that they dropped *everything* Jul 22 14:11:17 that was the real error Jul 22 14:11:20 no, i just again question your generalizations, like "the people". that's for sure how all the market droids think, no matter if in Nokia or Samsung or Aplle or whatever. Though apple started to break *new* grounds Jul 22 14:11:28 no sales no profit, they forgot to sell anything Jul 22 14:11:35 but they won't suck in me Jul 22 14:11:43 they dont have tpo Jul 22 14:11:51 they have no need for people clinging to dead HW or projects born dead Jul 22 14:11:54 like openmoko or n900 Jul 22 14:12:01 you are not part of the target market Jul 22 14:12:40 you are not defining target market, btw there are a multitude of markets Jul 22 14:12:47 the problem that people like us have, is that we very much overvalue the worth that people assign to their mobile Jul 22 14:13:03 and most people dont give a shit about their mobile, its brand or its OS Jul 22 14:13:24 *this* Jul 22 14:13:26 it's just every hw making fool wnats to focus on the largest existing segment Jul 22 14:13:32 is why we never get cool stuff Jul 22 14:13:51 jon_y: making devices costs money Jul 22 14:14:04 so unless you are Jolla and you have some help, it will be rather hard to make a good product and sell it Jul 22 14:14:07 ask DocScrutinizer05 Jul 22 14:14:14 yup, mass production or it ain't happening Jul 22 14:14:19 future is looking better and better tho Jul 22 14:15:31 but things get into fashion and go out of fashion Jul 22 14:15:39 HW keyboards and resistive touchscreens are among them Jul 22 14:15:41 look, there seems to be a trend to have some ugly tatoo right above your ass. I'm not one of those who run to next tatoo studio to get one Jul 22 14:15:42 even tho I love both deeply Jul 22 14:15:56 most people arent like that, DocScrutinizer05 Jul 22 14:16:22 ooh, are those caused by vampire novels? Jul 22 14:16:33 and if 95% of idiots think they need a smartphone (and define "smartphone" as "looks like an iphone"), I won't be one of them Jul 22 14:16:57 they dont think they need a smartphone just by themselves Jul 22 14:17:01 a need is created for them Jul 22 14:17:07 so you have to lure them into thinking they need one Jul 22 14:17:19 marketing is awesome Jul 22 14:17:27 and I see a opportunity for really innovative players in the market to define and provide new trends, rather than running like sheep after what is newest trend defined by Apple Jul 22 14:17:30 peer pressure, as you described, is part of this Jul 22 14:17:42 Apple doesnt define trends Jul 22 14:17:50