**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Aug 26 02:59:58 2013
Aug 26 05:48:27 <Apic> A wonderful splendid good Morning (UGT) to You all.
Aug 26 06:04:47 <DocScrutinizer05> yoh
Aug 26 06:11:39 <AndrewX192> usb port sadness
Aug 26 06:57:33 <WizardNumberNext> hello. Where lock-code is stored? I have my 3rd n900. Unfortunately lock-code isn't default anymore and I would like to have same lock-code on my 3rd as on my 1st.
Aug 26 07:09:42 <AndrewX192> WizardNumberNext: /dev/mtd*
Aug 26 07:09:50 <AndrewX192> not sure which one
Aug 26 07:26:04 <lexik> DocScrutinizer05: the pottentional n900 for tests: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1369407&postcount=42 ... what do you think about it?
Aug 26 07:29:45 <lexik> DocScrutinizer51: highlight ^^ 
Aug 26 07:31:10 <WizardNumberNext> AndrewX192, I know it is some mtd. I need extact location though
Aug 26 07:37:37 <WizardNumberNext> DocScrutinizer05, idea is nice, but there's no details at all. Kernel 3.1 is bit archaic as well.
Aug 26 10:09:38 <DocScrutinizer05> good (UGT) morning!
Aug 26 10:11:26 <Apic> Yah
Aug 26 10:54:42 <Iridos> DocScrutinizer05, now you have to spend some time explaining what ugt is :P it's the rule!
Aug 26 10:55:04 <Iridos> oh, and good morning
Aug 26 10:56:32 <DocScrutinizer05> HAH!
Aug 26 10:56:34 <DocScrutinizer05> ~ugt
Aug 26 10:56:35 <infobot> from memory, ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
Aug 26 10:56:53 <DocScrutinizer05> we streamlined that process ;-)
Aug 26 10:57:16 <qwerty123_> hi what is "alt" key in easy deb.. trying to use finch.. need keys or vkb.
Aug 26 10:57:36 <DocScrutinizer05> usually the blue key
Aug 26 10:57:47 <qwerty123_> nowt working :(
Aug 26 10:57:55 <DocScrutinizer05> dunno abozut ED
Aug 26 10:57:56 <qwerty123_> not.
Aug 26 10:58:42 <DocScrutinizer05> try pressing esc instead press+hold alt  --  this works for some apps
Aug 26 10:58:54 <qwerty123_> finch opens in terminal,. so alt key should of maemo??
Aug 26 11:00:09 <qwerty123_> no help. pressing+holding, works in easydeb apps. for terminal apps, just pressing does.
Aug 26 11:01:57 <lexik> is IR on GTA04? 
Aug 26 11:09:10 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
Aug 26 11:09:17 <DocScrutinizer05> iirc it is
Aug 26 11:09:32 <lexik> good :)
Aug 26 11:10:26 <DocScrutinizer05> http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/37/
Aug 26 11:10:37 <dos1> yup, it is
Aug 26 11:10:39 <dos1> mornin' :)
Aug 26 11:11:35 <Iridos> pft. I thought you have to spend at least the amount of time it would have taken to figure out everyones timezone
Aug 26 11:55:15 <lexik> hm.. wordpress client for maemo is nice :) its lightweight, fast and usable
Aug 26 12:03:10 <qwerty123> finch
Aug 26 12:03:16 <qwerty123> atlast
Aug 26 12:48:46 <Win7Mac> morning!
Aug 26 12:48:55 <Win7Mac> Any chance the Neo900 can run Harmattan, Meego, Sailfish or Ubuntu Touch?
Aug 26 12:49:02 <Win7Mac> Android?
Aug 26 13:06:06 <SpeedEvil> it can run meego, and android
Aug 26 13:06:09 <SpeedEvil> google nitdroid
Aug 26 13:06:15 <SpeedEvil> And meego is basically dead
Aug 26 13:30:50 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't see why it couldn't run sailfish, though the touchscreen doesn't support multitouch as we all know
Aug 26 13:32:10 <Win7Mac> ah ya, damn
Aug 26 13:33:22 <Win7Mac> DocScrutinizer05, did you have a chance to look into my draft for the e.V.?
Aug 26 13:33:33 <DocScrutinizer05> not even seen it
Aug 26 13:33:51 <Win7Mac> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/AMabik4zeD
Aug 26 13:33:59 <Win7Mac> sorry, another webpad...
Aug 26 13:34:00 <DocScrutinizer05> and I dunnop if I'm available for it anymore
Aug 26 13:34:26 <DocScrutinizer05> you might be better off without me
Aug 26 13:35:04 <Win7Mac> well, feel free to comment on it. your input would much appreciated
Aug 26 13:35:06 <DocScrutinizer05> OK, I opened the pad, will look at it later tonight
Aug 26 13:35:14 <Win7Mac> great
Aug 26 13:36:25 <Win7Mac> how can I get a proper english translation of it?
Aug 26 13:37:05 <DocScrutinizer05> lol
Aug 26 13:37:08 <DocScrutinizer05> no idea
Aug 26 13:37:20 <DocScrutinizer05> ask community to help out
Aug 26 13:45:37 <lexik> Win7Mac: Neo900 will probably be able to run replicant android clon
Aug 26 13:45:58 <lexik> this is much better than nitdroid in my opinion
Aug 26 16:09:08 <dos1> former Nokia kernel devs on Neo900 side? wowowow! :D
Aug 26 16:09:25 <freemangordon> dos1: I'll believe when I see it :)
Aug 26 16:10:13 <dos1> freemangordon: hehe :) but still, it sounds uberamazing
Aug 26 16:11:02 <dos1> as we need to ensure proper power management, at least in pair to N900
Aug 26 16:11:10 <dos1> GTA04 is rather poor in this regard at the moment
Aug 26 16:12:15 <freemangordon> dos1: And that is one reason why we should keep the kernel as it is, no matter if it is old, wait for Pali to upstream whatever possible, and slowly upgrade it aterwards
Aug 26 16:13:10 <freemangordon> dos1: but maybe I talk nonsense, I don;t know how's gta04 compared to n900 re power management
Aug 26 16:15:36 <dos1> and I don't know details either
Aug 26 16:18:16 <freemangordon> dos1: hopefully the newer SoC (40nm or even 30nm) will help us when we can't do the proper SW :D
Aug 26 16:47:54 <szopin> helo
Aug 26 16:48:04 <RiD> helo
Aug 26 16:48:12 <Win7Mac> halo
Aug 26 16:49:27 <szopin> does anyone know if omap3 <-> omap4 would be binary compatible?
Aug 26 16:51:31 <wmarone> should be, they're bot ARMv7
Aug 26 16:51:34 <wmarone> both*
Aug 26 16:55:04 <szopin> yes, both armv7
Aug 26 16:55:50 <dos1> if you're question is about Neo900, then "they're both armv7" is not enough
Aug 26 16:56:01 <dos1> think about power management
Aug 26 16:56:04 <szopin> what's missing? drivers?
Aug 26 16:56:26 <freemangordon> szopin: OMAP4 means dual core?
Aug 26 16:56:38 <szopin> yes, it's about neo, didn't want to spam the thread with questions
Aug 26 16:56:40 <szopin> yes
Aug 26 16:56:44 <dos1> Nokia has invested lots of work into it, and most of ther work are hacks that are not going to be upstreamed anytime
Aug 26 16:57:24 <dos1> I don't think we have enough capacity to create anything in pair of N900's power management - GTA04 is struggling with power consumption problems
Aug 26 16:57:43 <freemangordon> szopin: I have NFC how fremantle would behave on 2 or more cores, too much of a risk IMO.
Aug 26 16:57:44 <dos1> keeping it as close to N900 as we can will simplify it a lot
Aug 26 16:58:37 <freemangordon> dos1: hopefully there are at least 2 of us knowing n900 kernel enough to do almost whatever we want with it :)
Aug 26 16:58:42 <szopin> yes, but without 'better enough' specs it's going to be a hard sell
Aug 26 16:59:00 <freemangordon> szopin: it is not CPU that makes n900 stutter, no?
Aug 26 16:59:20 <dos1> szopin: and second factor agains "better enough" is price
Aug 26 16:59:26 <freemangordon> :nod:
Aug 26 16:59:29 <szopin> hard to say, so many tweaks... 
Aug 26 16:59:55 <freemangordon> szopin: and most of them related to swap - swappolube, swappiness, cssu-thumb, etc.
Aug 26 17:00:01 <dos1> szopin: with such small production runs, it matters a lot
Aug 26 17:00:04 <wmarone> freemangordon: I'd wager lack of ram before CPU
Aug 26 17:00:18 <szopin> flopswap, swappolube...
Aug 26 17:00:29 <freemangordon> wmarone: anytime :)
Aug 26 17:00:29 <dos1> I'd love to see Neo900 with 1GB RAM
Aug 26 17:00:37 <freemangordon> me too
Aug 26 17:00:38 <dos1> we'll just have yet to see if it's possible at all
Aug 26 17:00:46 <wmarone> cause my n9 has had stall moments, but -never- ever as bad as the N900 has had tem
Aug 26 17:00:47 <wmarone> them*
Aug 26 17:00:48 <RiD> i think everyone would love to see it
Aug 26 17:00:50 <szopin> people tweak all they can, OCed to 1150 does seem to work less stuttery that's for sure
Aug 26 17:01:14 <freemangordon> szopin: imagine n900 as it is, just with 1GB or RAM
Aug 26 17:01:29 <RiD> less swap action, sleeping core apps
Aug 26 17:01:37 <dos1> availability of SoCs in small quantities is crucial here
Aug 26 17:02:22 <dos1> we may have no choice but to go with 512, so we don't want to spread false excitement
Aug 26 17:02:36 <RiD> it's still double ._.
Aug 26 17:02:59 <freemangordon> szopin: omap3430 @ 600 MHZ is a powerful device. I am not saying that having 2x1GHz is not good, but it is not the CPU that is the bottleneck
Aug 26 17:03:19 <dos1> I prefer "hey, look, we were able to increase amount of RAM from 512MB to 1GB!" than "oh crap, we are not able to get 1GB, it's going to have 512MB, sorry!"
Aug 26 17:03:51 <szopin> sure... just, with people mostly interested in 300-400 euro area...
Aug 26 17:03:54 <freemangordon> szopin: also, have in mind that never 3xxx have faster memory acceess
Aug 26 17:04:01 <freemangordon> szopin: no way IMO
Aug 26 17:04:11 <szopin> might be better to buy second hand N9's, rip their boards and voila 1gb ram
Aug 26 17:04:19 <RiD> wat
Aug 26 17:04:34 <RiD> good luck porting maemo to it
Aug 26 17:04:38 <freemangordon> szopin: even pin-to-pin compatible, 3630 is not 3430
Aug 26 17:04:49 <dos1> szopin: good luck with "ripping their boards"
Aug 26 17:04:49 <szopin> ouch
Aug 26 17:05:00 <wmarone> at that point you might as well port gtk and hildon to Mer/NemoMobile and be done with it
Aug 26 17:05:32 <szopin> so we're stuck with 3430?
Aug 26 17:05:33 <dos1> hardware world is not that easy :(
Aug 26 17:05:46 <dos1> poll is for 3730
Aug 26 17:05:49 <freemangordon> szopin: no, we're stuck with cortexA8
Aug 26 17:06:01 <dos1> so I guess it's one of the safe options
Aug 26 17:06:14 <szopin> one sec, checking 3730, must've missed it
Aug 26 17:06:53 <freemangordon> szopin: see, sammy need 4 cores and 2GB of RAM because the OS and SW is highly inefficient
Aug 26 17:07:02 <freemangordon> we don;t have that problem
Aug 26 17:07:14 <szopin> 3730 not even listed in wikipedia :/
Aug 26 17:07:18 <RiD> 8 cores in some editions, if you want to impress people with numbers
Aug 26 17:07:26 <RiD> despite it being no real benefit other than power saving it seems
Aug 26 17:07:40 <szopin> fmg: sure, but those wpa handshakes are not gonna crack themselves ;D
Aug 26 17:08:01 <freemangordon> szopin: use your S3 for that :P
Aug 26 17:08:09 <dos1> szopin: TI DM3730, just like in BeagleBoard-xM
Aug 26 17:08:30 <freemangordon> dos1: this is still c64+ DSP, ain't?
Aug 26 17:08:34 <szopin> fmg: using 64 raided s5's for it
Aug 26 17:08:43 <RiD> so freemangordon, i heard half life is your favorite game
Aug 26 17:08:49 <freemangordon> :nod:
Aug 26 17:08:57 <freemangordon> but still no HL3 :(
Aug 26 17:09:05 <RiD> HL3 has 3 letters
Aug 26 17:09:10 <RiD> half life 3 confirmed
Aug 26 17:09:16 * RiD runs for his life.
Aug 26 17:09:17 <szopin> neo <- 3 letters
Aug 26 17:09:27 <szopin> hl3 confirmed when neo comes out
Aug 26 17:09:38 <freemangordon> yeah, duke nukem forever :D
Aug 26 17:09:47 <RiD> hah, make neo pretend to be a half life 3 crowdfunding kickstarter
Aug 26 17:09:51 <RiD> infinite money source
Aug 26 17:09:54 <freemangordon> but wait, it is out, so why not neo900?
Aug 26 17:10:07 <dos1> freemangordon: TMS320C64x+TM
Aug 26 17:10:09 <szopin> well, dn forever was shit
Aug 26 17:10:12 <RiD> neo9000
Aug 26 17:10:29 <mashina> is it just me, or is the N900 GPS completely incompetent?
Aug 26 17:10:31 <freemangordon> dos1: yep, c64x, so we won;t have any probplem with multimedia and such
Aug 26 17:10:41 <freemangordon> mashina: just you
Aug 26 17:10:43 <mashina> (i don't have a SIM, so I can't use cell towers)
Aug 26 17:10:54 <mashina> i can never acquire a lock, even outside
Aug 26 17:10:58 <RiD> better leave it out in the open for 1 hour
Aug 26 17:10:59 <freemangordon> you need to wait 10+ minutes then
Aug 26 17:11:05 <szopin> throw it as high as you can
Aug 26 17:11:16 <freemangordon> hmm, how was that app called?
Aug 26 17:11:19 <RiD> while throwing it, use the n900 fly application so you can measure it
Aug 26 17:11:27 <freemangordon> yep, this ^^^ one :D
Aug 26 17:11:29 <szopin> go for highscore
Aug 26 17:11:40 <szopin> bonus points for hitting a satellite
Aug 26 17:11:42 <RiD> i actually threw it, but it was on my bed
Aug 26 17:11:48 <szopin> you will get a lock then for sure
Aug 26 17:11:58 <RiD> that's how the gsm stopped working, usb failed and right speaker blew up
Aug 26 17:12:03 <freemangordon> mashina: withaout A-GPS it takes a while for the lock to be acquired
Aug 26 17:12:12 <freemangordon> *without
Aug 26 17:12:13 <qwazix> wouldn't be sane to first try and run maemo on N950 before embarking in costly hardware adventures?
Aug 26 17:12:14 <dos1> RiD: there's something in it
Aug 26 17:12:20 <RiD> dos1 hm?
Aug 26 17:12:25 <freemangordon> qwazix: what for?
Aug 26 17:12:27 <dos1> RiD: I also was trowing my N900 on bed
Aug 26 17:12:31 <dos1> and now USB is broken
Aug 26 17:12:34 <dos1> ;)
Aug 26 17:12:36 <RiD> haha
Aug 26 17:12:39 <qwazix> same OMAP as the GTA04, no?
Aug 26 17:12:41 <RiD> mine too, but everything else works
Aug 26 17:12:43 <freemangordon> qwazix: no fmtx, uSD, etc
Aug 26 17:12:49 <szopin> 3630 if it is same as n9
Aug 26 17:12:58 <RiD> i did blew up the right speaker (my own fault) and the earspeaker... well that one was not my fault. Don't know why it was broke
Aug 26 17:13:01 <qwazix> freemangordon, just for making sure the thing will work reasonably well
Aug 26 17:13:01 <RiD> blow*
Aug 26 17:13:07 <RiD> but i replaced them
Aug 26 17:13:13 <dos1> qwazix: a bit better afaik
Aug 26 17:13:15 <qwazix> if this succeeds, then by all means go on
Aug 26 17:13:17 <freemangordon> qwazix: power management is different, as well as screen controller
Aug 26 17:13:29 <RiD> anyone who wants a 2nd hand screen for n900, two white spots
Aug 26 17:13:33 <freemangordon> and whatnot else
Aug 26 17:14:06 <qwazix> freemangordon, :nod:
Aug 26 17:14:15 <RiD> speaking of that, i have a dead n900 motherboard on my garage
Aug 26 17:14:20 <szopin> 3730: dsp at 800mhz, nice
Aug 26 17:14:32 <szopin> I wonder how high can one OC
Aug 26 17:14:46 <RiD> i knew i was buying a broken n900, but he claimed that the body and etc was in good shape. Boy, the pic noise fooled me big time
Aug 26 17:14:48 <freemangordon> szopin: not much, this is not the 60nm tech we have in n900
Aug 26 17:15:01 <RiD> the horror when i saw the touchscreen
Aug 26 17:15:01 <dos1> 3730 supports up to 4GB RAM
Aug 26 17:15:02 <mashina> you people are cruel to your N900s
Aug 26 17:15:13 <RiD> it was all peeling off
Aug 26 17:15:16 <RiD> like dead skin
Aug 26 17:15:20 <freemangordon> mashina: naah, they just talk like that, trust me :)
Aug 26 17:15:40 <szopin> fmg: ??? so is it a step forwards or backwards?
Aug 26 17:16:07 <freemangordon> szopin: well, trake n9 for example, AFAIK, the max stable OC is about 1.2-1.3 GHz
Aug 26 17:16:11 <freemangordon> *take
Aug 26 17:16:23 <RiD> and for that to work they had to blow up a few N9s
Aug 26 17:16:27 <dos1> yup, OC potential will be lower
Aug 26 17:16:29 <szopin> ouch... 
Aug 26 17:16:43 <freemangordon> szopin: you still don;t get it - it is not the CPU
Aug 26 17:16:53 <mashina> *sarah mclaughlin music* Every day, neglected Internet Tablets are thrown and abused every day, left without necessities such as updates, internet, and proper care of USB ports. For as little as $120 every day, you can own and care for a forgotten NIT.
Aug 26 17:17:10 <RiD> lmfao
Aug 26 17:17:27 <freemangordon> n900 with its limited RAM but cssu-thumb on it goes circles around n950 in terms of speed
Aug 26 17:17:29 <szopin> fmg: for some tasks it is, compilation time can be reduced by some 30+% by OC to 1150
Aug 26 17:17:41 <RiD> speaking of cssu-thumb, it hates rockbox. or vice versa
Aug 26 17:17:48 <freemangordon> szopin: I am using my desktop to compile ;)
Aug 26 17:17:54 <RiD> not that i can flash it anymore
Aug 26 17:17:55 <qwazix> "see their batteries, swollen from the lack of power..."
Aug 26 17:17:58 * RiD looks at broken usb
Aug 26 17:18:06 <RiD> well i can, but its a hassle
Aug 26 17:18:10 <szopin> fmg: I'm looking forward to 1gb rootfs
Aug 26 17:18:11 <freemangordon> RiD: hmm? WTF is rockbox?
Aug 26 17:18:17 <RiD> a rock box
Aug 26 17:18:28 <szopin> scratch scratchbox
Aug 26 17:18:28 <RiD> i think it's the only player that supports gapless playback
Aug 26 17:18:35 <freemangordon> oooh, a box full of rock? how sweet :)
Aug 26 17:18:41 <RiD> maybe rhapsody also supports it too, dunno
Aug 26 17:18:46 <freemangordon> and what is the problem?
Aug 26 17:18:52 <qwazix> too heavy
Aug 26 17:19:00 <RiD> qwazix rockbox? nah
Aug 26 17:19:15 <qwazix> but it's full of rock :P
Aug 26 17:19:27 <qwazix> (never tried it, just joking)
Aug 26 17:19:58 <szopin> hmmmm.... if we had drivers for better components would it still be a nogo?
Aug 26 17:20:22 <szopin> (I'm thinking about a little help from jolla?)
Aug 26 17:20:31 <qwazix> (tegra 3, tegra 3)
Aug 26 17:20:49 <RiD> fmg: if i pause music and then leave it paused for a while, resuming it crashes the app
Aug 26 17:20:55 <szopin> or is it about time spent on hacks/optimization?
Aug 26 17:21:14 <dos1> szopin: except drivers (an I don't mean just working drivers, I mean optimized drivers) there's also problem with quantity
Aug 26 17:21:21 <szopin> oh wait, libhybris nvm
Aug 26 17:21:21 <freemangordon> RiD: any chance to take a coredump?
Aug 26 17:21:32 <RiD> eh
Aug 26 17:21:41 <szopin> they will be using android drivers anyway
Aug 26 17:22:12 <freemangordon> RiD: a backtrace - even better :)
Aug 26 17:23:21 <RiD> you tell me how to do it and i'll be happy to provide it
Aug 26 17:23:35 <RiD> or point me to a page that explains how to do it
Aug 26 17:24:01 <szopin> install gdb
Aug 26 17:24:14 <szopin> run the app with it and strace once crashed
Aug 26 17:24:34 <RiD> is it as easy as installing it from the repos (if its in the repos)?
Aug 26 17:24:43 <szopin> yup
Aug 26 17:24:50 <RiD> sounds good
Aug 26 17:24:51 <szopin> sudo apt-get gdb
Aug 26 17:25:10 <dos1> install gdb*
Aug 26 17:25:16 <dos1> ;)
Aug 26 17:25:34 <RiD> oh fail
Aug 26 17:25:43 <RiD> that'll have to wait, no battery ._.
Aug 26 17:27:14 <szopin> so wait, N9's 3630 will cause problems with power management, how is 3730 going to avoid those?
Aug 26 17:27:21 <szopin> already well done moko out there?
Aug 26 17:27:27 <RiD> fmg: if interested in trying out rockbox, i recommend you to use http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89615&highlight=rockn900 to make it a little more finger friendly
Aug 26 17:27:47 <dos1> szopin: hmm?
Aug 26 17:28:44 <qwazix> Any chance of fitting the N810 battery in Neo900?
Aug 26 17:28:46 <szopin> someone said that N9's 3630 is going to cause power management issues
Aug 26 17:28:54 <freemangordon> RiD: szopin: installing gdb itself is not enough, one needs debug symbols too
Aug 26 17:29:00 <dos1> szopin: not really
Aug 26 17:29:19 <szopin> RiD: install rockbox-dbg
Aug 26 17:29:25 <freemangordon> RiD: I'll install that app and check what happens once I have time
Aug 26 17:29:57 <szopin> dos1: why 3730 then?
Aug 26 17:29:58 <freemangordon> szopin: not only, he needs libc6-dbg too, and whoever knows what else to get a sane backtrace
Aug 26 17:30:05 <RiD> if you do it this week i'll give you 1 cent
Aug 26 17:30:24 <freemangordon> oh, I';ll do it next week then so you'll give me 2 :P
Aug 26 17:30:25 <dos1> szopin: it's not settled yet
Aug 26 17:30:36 <RiD> :(
Aug 26 17:30:46 <RiD> do it today and i'll give you a free game
Aug 26 17:30:51 <RiD> for free
Aug 26 17:31:04 <dos1> DocScrutinizer05 listed 3730 in poll, so I assumed this is some "safe choice" we are able to make
Aug 26 17:31:11 <szopin> do it tomorrow and you'll get a free game for 5$
Aug 26 17:31:13 <dos1> but there might be some other options too
Aug 26 17:31:29 <szopin> dos1: listening...
Aug 26 17:32:09 <RiD> fmg: i'll be damned if the error does not happen to you
Aug 26 17:32:20 <dos1> (but probably not too much given our small production runs and reluctance to diversing too much from GTA04 and N900)
Aug 26 17:32:55 <freemangordon> RiD: we'll see
Aug 26 17:34:31 <DocScrutinizer05> hey, I#m just the hardware dude with a weird idea. And I know N900 binaries run on N9. Up to you (the fremantle porting task force) to evaluate if it's feasible
Aug 26 17:35:39 <szopin> wouldn't call it weird
Aug 26 17:35:54 <szopin> natural more like it
Aug 26 17:36:24 <RiD> we're all natural after all
Aug 26 17:36:31 <szopin> wish there were replacement n950's floating around
Aug 26 17:36:33 <dos1> this whole initiative (GTA04, and now Neo900) is unique in the world
Aug 26 17:36:43 <dos1> it might be a bit weird... but in very positive way :D
Aug 26 17:37:08 <szopin> there was a guy who tried to upgrade ram, haven't heard for a while so prob fail
Aug 26 17:37:22 <RiD> i heard he jumped from a bridge
Aug 26 17:37:33 <szopin> then there is freemantle and rebasing on top of debian
Aug 26 17:37:35 <RiD> legend says the n900 broke a car
Aug 26 17:37:53 <szopin> all looking to have a totally nokia free to put on some device
Aug 26 17:38:31 <szopin> too bad G didn't open nexuses up
Aug 26 17:38:58 <RiD> i would tolerate android if it wasn't that screwed
Aug 26 17:39:13 <RiD> i usually play an icon guessing game to figure out what does what
Aug 26 17:39:17 <RiD> and that back button, ugh
Aug 26 17:39:46 <Win7Mac> put N9 HW in E7 case, make it run sailfisch + android app compatibility and I'm all in
Aug 26 17:40:05 <RiD> hmh
Aug 26 17:40:14 <RiD> how would sailfish look in landscape
Aug 26 17:40:24 <szopin> sideways
Aug 26 17:40:30 <freemangordon> Win7Mac: with capacitive screen?
Aug 26 17:40:34 <DocScrutinizer05> well, according to Jolla E7 formfactor is soooooo out
Aug 26 17:40:36 <Win7Mac> amoled
Aug 26 17:40:43 <RiD> lps
Aug 26 17:40:46 <dos1> Win7Mac: putting N9 hw in other case would mean that we need to manufacture N9
Aug 26 17:41:06 <RiD> what
Aug 26 17:41:09 <Win7Mac> N9s are still available
Aug 26 17:41:14 <dos1> Win7Mac: and will small productions runs, price will be much higher
Aug 26 17:41:18 <DocScrutinizer05> really?
Aug 26 17:41:19 <szopin> n9's are not that expensive
Aug 26 17:41:34 <dos1> Win7Mac: but how do you want to modify them to put somewhere else?
Aug 26 17:41:54 <RiD> n9 is only 704,03� here
Aug 26 17:41:57 <RiD> quite cheap if you ask me
Aug 26 17:42:02 <DocScrutinizer05> and I wonder how you want to make them boot
Aug 26 17:42:09 <dos1> Win7Mac: manually?
Aug 26 17:42:15 <Win7Mac> no clue
Aug 26 17:42:16 <RiD> and that's with discount already applied
Aug 26 17:42:26 <DocScrutinizer05> ~aegis
Aug 26 17:42:26 <infobot> http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or  http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif
Aug 26 17:42:39 <DocScrutinizer05> ask freemangordon about HS devices
Aug 26 17:42:47 <Win7Mac> coderus has a fix for that
Aug 26 17:42:53 <dos1> Win7Mac: yeah. There's no "why not just take this phone from there / and put it there in this case?"
Aug 26 17:42:56 <DocScrutinizer05> a fix for HS?
Aug 26 17:42:57 <Win7Mac> *for aegis
Aug 26 17:43:04 <freemangordon> it is not the same
Aug 26 17:43:09 <Win7Mac> HS?
Aug 26 17:43:09 <dos1> Win7Mac: we have to produce a board by ourselves
Aug 26 17:43:19 <freemangordon> HighSecurity
Aug 26 17:43:32 <dos1> Win7Mac: but we don't have to produce a case, as we can for instance use N900's one
Aug 26 17:43:44 <dos1> that's what Neo900 is about
Aug 26 17:43:57 <szopin> dos1: realistically though, how far can we go fremantle compatible in terms of cpu/ram/nand?
Aug 26 17:44:19 <dos1> szopin: cpu/ram/nand? Feature wise, 100%?
Aug 26 17:44:25 <dos1> power optimisation wide - no idea
Aug 26 17:44:33 <dos1> wise*
Aug 26 17:44:37 <Win7Mac> just throwing in my wishful thinking: N900 is not for me, E7/N9 is
Aug 26 17:44:51 <DocScrutinizer05> as long as it's OMAP3 I think we're fine with SoC PM
Aug 26 17:45:01 <DocScrutinizer05> peripherals are a whole new story
Aug 26 17:45:09 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: there are slight differences afaik
Aug 26 17:45:20 <RiD> hmh, what about fmtx, ir and all these little extras
Aug 26 17:45:22 <freemangordon> but we can backport the stuff from the Harm kernel
Aug 26 17:45:33 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: might be, we'll handle them in kernel
Aug 26 17:45:43 <freemangordon> ooh, sure
Aug 26 17:45:46 <szopin> dos1: dual-core seems out of reach
Aug 26 17:46:11 <szopin> what are the best specs we could get and be still fremantle compatible?
Aug 26 17:46:15 <freemangordon> szopin: seems we just can't afford it
Aug 26 17:46:22 <szopin> I know
Aug 26 17:46:26 <szopin> in theory
Aug 26 17:46:34 <freemangordon> A15?
Aug 26 17:46:47 <szopin> ?
Aug 26 17:46:54 <szopin> it can be done?
Aug 26 17:47:01 <szopin> no problems with power management?
Aug 26 17:47:14 <DocScrutinizer05> we even have basically identical companion chip (GAYA TPS65951 vs 50)
Aug 26 17:47:23 <LjL-Alps> you called it Neo900 now?
Aug 26 17:47:23 <szopin> or does it include 5000bil$ to buy apple out?
Aug 26 17:47:27 <DocScrutinizer05> which is much more relevant for PM
Aug 26 17:48:09 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: it is not that simple, IMO the upstream kernel is missing power domain control
Aug 26 17:48:38 <freemangordon> or most of it
Aug 26 17:48:43 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, that's why we use fremantle kernel (or even HARM kernel backported to 2.6.x ABI)
Aug 26 17:48:46 <RiD> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Nokia-N950-NO-reserve-price-/261267322289
Aug 26 17:48:50 <RiD> someone's a crazy nutfu_
Aug 26 17:49:40 <szopin> Just wondering what is the upper limit in fremantle compatible vs realistic possible. Seems different people have different priorities (ram/cpu/nand/IR/fmtx...)
Aug 26 17:50:05 <szopin> so while there is enough enthusiasts to shell out 1000 euro on their dream device
Aug 26 17:50:19 <szopin> everyone has a different dream
Aug 26 17:50:42 <szopin> so just wondering if we could compare theoretical top vs cost of each upgrade
Aug 26 17:51:03 <szopin> rpg game style, upgrade ram to 512 for 200$/XP
Aug 26 17:51:42 <szopin> upgrade omap3 for...
Aug 26 17:51:53 <szopin> etc... and get some feedback this way
Aug 26 17:52:09 <szopin> 50 people who indicated they would buy it for 300 tells us nothing
Aug 26 17:53:51 <szopin> so having 2 versions (say with batch of 200 and 500) with prices and poll like this would make more sense
Aug 26 17:54:42 <szopin> omap3+512 - 600 euro (200), 700 euro (500), omap3 + 1gb 650 (200....
Aug 26 17:55:02 <szopin> ehh, prices wrong but the idea is clear i guess
Aug 26 17:56:25 <DocScrutinizer05> won't fly, we're happy if we can source complete BOM at all
Aug 26 17:56:38 <DocScrutinizer05> no headroom for fancy options
Aug 26 17:56:53 <szopin> if we see 2/3 going for 1gb upgrade rather than omap4 and willing to shell extra 200 for it...
Aug 26 17:57:03 <DocScrutinizer05> also the difference in price is probably negligible
Aug 26 17:57:32 <szopin> or the other way around, this is of course assuming there is wiggle space
Aug 26 17:58:33 <DocScrutinizer05> it's for sure negligible when it comes to "omap4 won't happen since that is a whole new design" and we simply have no choice on the OMAP3 SoC we can source
Aug 26 17:59:29 <szopin> thanks, was looking for that answer even though previously some people said binary compatible/would like to see fremantle behaving on dual-core
Aug 26 17:59:51 <RiD> damn
Aug 26 17:59:54 <RiD> i've got the itch to buy another n900
Aug 26 18:00:05 <szopin> still had high hopes
Aug 26 18:00:09 <szopin> so who said A15 is an option?
Aug 26 18:00:29 <szopin> probably shuttleworth
Aug 26 18:00:41 <RiD> ok wtf
Aug 26 18:00:46 <RiD> http://olx-t.imgrap.com/ui/26/90/33/441038733_1x.jpg?x=1376907747
Aug 26 18:00:48 <RiD> booster n900
Aug 26 18:01:02 <DocScrutinizer05> look, it's often like "hey in two months Apple builds a new batch, so ask us after that batch is finished if we maybe got a handful surplus SoC from that run for you"  sth like 1000 SoC is usually nothing they serve you a cup of coffe when you come asking for such quantity
Aug 26 18:02:19 <DocScrutinizer05> szopin: OMAP4 means *we* need to do a whole new Neo900 design, and that's completely out of discussion for now
Aug 26 18:02:20 <RST38h> Doc: So, the desperation among the faithful has reached the SoC-swappingpoint?
Aug 26 18:02:21 <szopin> ok, but batches of sammie s2 are no longer produced and they used omap4
Aug 26 18:02:28 <szopin> are these still out of reach?
Aug 26 18:02:48 <szopin> doc: hw wise or driver/kernel wise? or both?
Aug 26 18:03:06 <DocScrutinizer05> hardware
Aug 26 18:03:23 <DocScrutinizer05> and kernel of course too
Aug 26 18:04:35 <DocScrutinizer05> please read http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/37/ - this is what we're going to use for Neo900 and we won't change much in all of that
Aug 26 18:05:50 <RiD> what do you guys do when you got the itch to buy another n900?
Aug 26 18:06:42 <dos1> we start projects like Neo900 to justify it :)
Aug 26 18:07:13 <szopin> how much? what state is it in?
Aug 26 18:07:40 <qwazix> DocScrutinizer05,  the only things that seem heavily outdated there is WLAN (g) and camera
Aug 26 18:07:49 <szopin> doc: vga, optional fm transmitter...
Aug 26 18:08:12 <szopin> 1.3 cam
Aug 26 18:09:56 <szopin> rs232? no usb?
Aug 26 18:10:00 <DocScrutinizer05> szopin: we can fix "minor" little issues like adding an fm transmitter or a bq27200 charge gas gauge, but we won't change the basic design, and OMAP4 for example would need a completely new design from scratch
Aug 26 18:10:27 <dos1> szopin: rs232 for debug; of course there's usb
Aug 26 18:10:35 <dos1> even with true OTG
Aug 26 18:10:42 <szopin> thx
Aug 26 18:10:48 <DocScrutinizer05> see page 9 please!
Aug 26 18:11:00 <szopin> last time used rs in 1999 or some such
Aug 26 18:11:47 <szopin> probably to play doom1 no less
Aug 26 18:11:52 <szopin> fun times
Aug 26 18:13:07 <szopin> btw, just curious, didn't components get smaller?
Aug 26 18:13:22 <szopin> as in: there will be left some space for extras?
Aug 26 18:13:43 <szopin> (wireless charging, though not fan of it myself, nfc or somesuch?)
Aug 26 18:14:10 <szopin> or are we buying same gen components and it will be full?
Aug 26 18:14:10 <DocScrutinizer05> and maybe when Nikolaus comes back from holiday tomorrow and we have a first look into thios whole thing, we find that the modem is too bulky to fit into the N900 case and we silently roll up the whole session
Aug 26 18:14:28 <szopin> :(
Aug 26 18:14:47 <szopin> santa nikolaus will be dead
Aug 26 18:15:43 <szopin> with jolla going n9 keyless it was the last moment to try to get those 1000 orders
Aug 26 18:16:07 <szopin> (then again wayland, might be too soon to call it)
Aug 26 18:16:59 <Luke-Jr> DocScrutinizer05: why a non-free license?
Aug 26 18:17:07 <szopin> OMAP3 with 1gb ram I believe still would be worth 550-600...
Aug 26 18:17:20 <szopin> though 750 is an overkill
Aug 26 18:17:22 <DocScrutinizer05> because we have no money to give away
Aug 26 18:17:48 <Luke-Jr> DocScrutinizer05: not sure how prohibiting people from using it commercially helps with that
Aug 26 18:18:10 <szopin> is there any other way than cpu to improve performance?
Aug 26 18:18:22 <szopin> cache ddr666 ram or something?
Aug 26 18:18:38 <DocScrutinizer05> Luke-Jr: this is NOT a FOSS project
Aug 26 18:18:42 <qwazix> the spec sheet says LED controller not tested
Aug 26 18:18:53 <szopin> if we're stuck with omap3 getting those fastest with some benchmarks would help get support
Aug 26 18:19:14 <szopin> people will like kengal whine for quad/dual core
Aug 26 18:19:19 <szopin> (or me)
Aug 26 18:19:42 <szopin> if we can get faster on ram side of things would be a good argument for extra euros
Aug 26 18:20:00 <qwazix> DocScrutinizer05, mind elaborating on "This is not a FOSS project"?
Aug 26 18:20:29 <szopin> gsm chip is open?
Aug 26 18:21:03 <szopin> we're luckily not aiming at stallman phone
Aug 26 18:21:08 <DocScrutinizer05> how to elaborate? GolDeliCo invested a 5digit EUR and a two digit person-months into GTA04
Aug 26 18:21:37 <Luke-Jr> DocScrutinizer05: lots of FOSS has far more invested
Aug 26 18:21:49 <DocScrutinizer05> we most likely give a F*
Aug 26 18:22:01 <DocScrutinizer05> you're free to do that, though
Aug 26 18:22:44 <RiD> freemangordon: HL3 has tit physics
Aug 26 18:22:48 <qwazix> DocScrutinizer05, not why, what rights do the users will have.
Aug 26 18:23:15 <Luke-Jr> qwazix: the PDF has a clear license
Aug 26 18:23:17 <DocScrutinizer05> you have the right to do with your property whatever you like
Aug 26 18:23:35 <qwazix> Luke-Jr, thanks, I missed that
Aug 26 18:23:39 <DocScrutinizer05> you get quite comprehensive documentation about absolutely everything
Aug 26 18:23:47 <DocScrutinizer05> and you get usual warranty
Aug 26 18:23:54 <Luke-Jr> DocScrutinizer05: so the non-commercial clause only applies to the PCB information, not the usage of the product itself?
Aug 26 18:23:56 <qwazix> DocScrutinizer05, sorry for the stupid question
Aug 26 18:24:25 <DocScrutinizer05> what clause?
Aug 26 18:24:48 <Luke-Jr> the PDF states that commercial use is prohibited..?
Aug 26 18:25:02 <DocScrutinizer05> the CC license is for the manual, not for the hardware
Aug 26 18:25:06 <Luke-Jr> ah
Aug 26 18:25:45 <szopin> rid: titphysics is so hl3, we'll have tit-for-that-physics
Aug 26 18:27:09 <DocScrutinizer05> at least that's what i'd guess
Aug 26 18:27:36 <RiD> as if saints row purple jigglity wigglity weapon wasn't enough
Aug 26 18:27:59 <DocScrutinizer05> creative commons is about documents and other information goods, not about a piece of hardware usually
Aug 26 18:28:51 <DocScrutinizer05> when you have a printed book with CC then the license is about the book's info, not about the paper
Aug 26 18:29:34 <Luke-Jr> oh, what kind of license would usually be used with hardware? O.o
Aug 26 18:29:49 <DocScrutinizer05> Copyright?
Aug 26 18:30:00 <Luke-Jr> Copyright is what empowers the license. :p
Aug 26 18:30:27 <DocScrutinizer05> you don't need a license to use an appliance
Aug 26 18:30:52 <DocScrutinizer05> so frequently appliances and other hardware come with no special licence at all
Aug 26 18:31:05 <DocScrutinizer05> thus Copyright laws apply
Aug 26 18:31:13 <qwazix> does that mean I can RE them and sell copies of them?
Aug 26 18:31:22 <DocScrutinizer05> ^^^
Aug 26 18:31:29 <szopin> except when you try to reverse engineer/jailbreak
Aug 26 18:31:32 <qwazix> :nod:
Aug 26 18:31:50 <szopin> but afaik noone hunts homdemade hw RE
Aug 26 18:32:27 <szopin> one other stupid thought i had...
Aug 26 18:32:46 <szopin> elop, he cares not for fremantle/harmattan
Aug 26 18:32:54 <szopin> so does current nokia
Aug 26 18:33:04 <szopin> licensing fremantle to neo900
Aug 26 18:33:08 <szopin> would make sense
Aug 26 18:33:15 <DocScrutinizer05> wut?
Aug 26 18:33:27 <szopin> undercutting competition (jolla is a competition when you have 3 percent)
Aug 26 18:33:51 <DocScrutinizer05> fremantle is FOSS, except for a few blobs for which community got permission to re-use and redistribute
Aug 26 18:33:55 <szopin> sure they dropped repo servers
Aug 26 18:34:13 <szopin> oh ok, so those blobs are stopping omap4?
Aug 26 18:34:17 <Luke-Jr> pfft, fremantle is like 40% FOSS IIRC; so basically non-free
Aug 26 18:34:36 <Luke-Jr> at least in terms of what actually is important
Aug 26 18:34:45 <DocScrutinizer05> pffft define "fremantle"
Aug 26 18:34:50 <szopin> the idea was, get the source or license fremantle for something undercutting incoming xompetition
Aug 26 18:35:01 <Luke-Jr> szopin: also, fremantle is obsolete. see harmattan
Aug 26 18:35:03 <szopin> absurd
Aug 26 18:35:10 <szopin> indeed
Aug 26 18:35:17 <szopin> more power to them letting it go
Aug 26 18:35:51 <szopin> hi mr elop, would you like to kill some jolla support? then give us fremangtle sources so we can go dual-core
Aug 26 18:36:20 <DocScrutinizer05> you should stop smoking that stuff ;-)
Aug 26 18:36:25 <szopin> we have hwkb, geeks will go definitely with us
Aug 26 18:36:26 <Luke-Jr> lol
Aug 26 18:36:28 <szopin> :P
Aug 26 18:36:34 <freemangordon> or you'd better share it :P
Aug 26 18:36:36 <Luke-Jr> szopin: what has hw kb!⁈
Aug 26 18:36:50 * Luke-Jr pounces
Aug 26 18:36:53 <szopin> n900
Aug 26 18:37:11 <szopin> and N900 shell with new guts
Aug 26 18:37:26 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if I can get new guts for N810
Aug 26 18:37:28 <Luke-Jr> it had a nicer kb
Aug 26 18:38:00 <szopin> if he cares for wp8 and competition from linux other than android, helping fremantle geeks makes sense
Aug 26 18:38:44 <qwazix> where would the keyboard be connected on GTA04?
Aug 26 18:38:53 <DocScrutinizer05> szopin: please stop it, won't happen, for reasons a bit too awkward to explain in full length here. Basically Nokia mustn't
Aug 26 18:39:09 <szopin> I was thinking of PR backlash if nokia would come in and stop us from using fremantle in connection with new hw
Aug 26 18:39:32 <Luke-Jr> szopin: none?
Aug 26 18:39:40 <szopin> they (and MS) care a LOT about PR
Aug 26 18:39:49 <Luke-Jr> there would be zero bad PR for Nokia
Aug 26 18:39:49 <szopin> ???
Aug 26 18:40:08 <DocScrutinizer05> they basically CANNOT stop us from using fremantle however we like
Aug 26 18:40:20 <szopin> Imagine theverge and all other blogs saying: nokia spiteful, stops hobbyists from using its abandonware
Aug 26 18:40:44 <freemangordon> qwazix: hmm? where it is connected now?
Aug 26 18:40:56 <DocScrutinizer05> again, fremantle err maemo at large been donated to community
Aug 26 18:40:56 <qwazix> freemangordon, no idea
Aug 26 18:40:59 <szopin> wp som weak they're afraid of once their hackers (shout developers, developers some more retired steve)
Aug 26 18:41:32 <szopin> it would be a pr disaster
Aug 26 18:41:33 * freemangordon is looking at the schematics
Aug 26 18:41:41 <DocScrutinizer05> huh?
Aug 26 18:41:53 <Win7Mac> DocScrutinizer05, when/were did that donation happen?
Aug 26 18:41:53 <dos1> GTA04 right now doesn't have keyboard
Aug 26 18:41:59 <qwazix> freemangordon, I'm just asking because the current GTA04 wasn't meant to be used with hwkb
Aug 26 18:42:06 <dos1> but I think there's some place you can connect one to
Aug 26 18:42:28 <DocScrutinizer05> Win7Mac: basically when Nokia offered you guys the contract you maybe still haven't signed
Aug 26 18:42:29 <qwazix> dos1, rs232?
Aug 26 18:42:37 <Win7Mac> exactly
Aug 26 18:42:42 <dos1> as some additional keyboard boards for 3D printed cases were evaluated
Aug 26 18:43:11 <Win7Mac> and AFAIK they won't
Aug 26 18:43:14 <DocScrutinizer05> but de facto it happened years ago when we got allowance to redistribute the blobs
Aug 26 18:43:32 <szopin> doc: fremantle is now community owned? what about closed packages? they can redistribute binary, but no go on source?
Aug 26 18:43:33 <DocScrutinizer05> THEY?? **YOU**
Aug 26 18:43:46 <Win7Mac> Nokia
Aug 26 18:43:48 <qwazix> dos1, freemangordon, page 42 "There is room for a TCA8418 button keyboard controller option but it is not soldered."
Aug 26 18:43:49 <Luke-Jr> if we don't have source, we don't have it.
Aug 26 18:44:15 <dos1> qwazix: yeah. but you can order one with it soldered
Aug 26 18:44:24 <DocScrutinizer05> Win7Mac: please elaborate!
Aug 26 18:44:25 <qwazix> dos1, cool
Aug 26 18:44:48 <dos1> (provided that there's enough demand to start new production batch at all)
Aug 26 18:44:56 <qwazix> ofc
Aug 26 18:44:56 <freemangordon> qwazix: well, I guess DocScrutinizer05 and dr. whoever-he-was and his team have some stuff to do
Aug 26 18:45:26 <qwazix> yeah
Aug 26 18:45:48 <Win7Mac> Woody: "The last I heard, Nokia was back pedaling on a hand over in favor of licening
Aug 26 18:45:48 <Win7Mac> due to "a conflict on giving up some intelectual propery found in other
Aug 26 18:45:48 <Win7Mac> software" (MeeGo?)."
Aug 26 18:45:57 <DocScrutinizer05> qwazix: you shouldn't waste your time reviewing GTA04 schematics. I told you they get adapted to more closely meet N900
Aug 26 18:46:35 <Win7Mac> that was in response to the contract Rob drafted
Aug 26 18:46:37 <DocScrutinizer05> At least that's _my_ plan for now, dunno what nikolaus will say about it
Aug 26 18:47:23 <freemangordon> Win7Mac: nothing can stop neo900 to be distributed/sold with only hildon-desktop, HAM and repos set up
Aug 26 18:48:07 * qwazix still thinks that maybe, if we find it hard to drum up support for N900 case Neo900, trying for E7 case might bring some additional support due to complete lack of proper QWERTY smartphones today. Even if it would be a little less perfect for maemo fans, (capacitive) it might bring outside backers and thus increase quantity (and maemo users)
Aug 26 18:48:23 <DocScrutinizer05> Win7Mac: and that's going to stop community how?
Aug 26 18:48:29 <szopin> droid 5
Aug 26 18:48:41 <Win7Mac> probably not at all
Aug 26 18:49:13 <szopin> droid 5 is going to grab all that hwkb market saly
Aug 26 18:49:17 <szopin> sadly*
Aug 26 18:49:19 <DocScrutinizer05> we have permission to redistribute blobs since early days of CSSU at least, if not longer
Aug 26 18:49:24 <qwazix> szopin, Droid line has stopped being available this side of the pond since IIRC Droid 3, and all other qwerties are completely low end
Aug 26 18:49:40 <szopin> droid 5 is coming
Aug 26 18:49:48 <szopin> photo leaks are abound
Aug 26 18:49:49 <DocScrutinizer05> and Neo900 doesn't ship with an OS anyway
Aug 26 18:49:56 <szopin> and specs are higher than middle
Aug 26 18:50:04 <Win7Mac> ok, fine then go ahead, I won't buy but definetely support it
Aug 26 18:50:11 <qwazix> droid 5 is verizon only, and probably no intl version will come, just like D4
Aug 26 18:51:00 <szopin> with jolla claiming they can their os on any hw in 24h...
Aug 26 18:51:04 <DocScrutinizer05> golDeliCo is not Nokia with a 2500 noses in sourcecode
Aug 26 18:51:07 <szopin> put their os*
Aug 26 18:51:34 <qwazix> szopin, you need an open bootloader to do that
Aug 26 18:51:44 <qwazix> and droids so far haven't got one
Aug 26 18:51:50 <szopin> though they claimed it before wayland, so not sure
Aug 26 18:51:56 * DocScrutinizer05 notices a grumpy feeling coming up, due to too many nagging from various sources during last few hours
Aug 26 18:52:07 <dos1> szopin: ask them to do that with Neo900 :)
Aug 26 18:52:16 <qwazix> It's *with* wayland that it's easy.
Aug 26 18:52:21 <szopin> moto wasn't google's for previous ones, no idea about nexus bootloaders though
Aug 26 18:52:55 <dos1> szopin: locked
Aug 26 18:53:14 <szopin> qwazix: oh ok, they claimed the 24h boot time before wayland announcement, thought it would cause more headaches than not
Aug 26 18:53:26 <dos1> well, unlockable, but not replacable
Aug 26 18:53:28 <szopin> docs: sorry
Aug 26 18:53:52 <szopin> docs: just the idea is so awesome i got a lot of questions
Aug 26 18:53:59 <LjL-Alps_> what takes 24 hours to boot? O.o
Aug 26 18:54:00 <qwazix> szopin, previous droids couldn't even get a new kernel
Aug 26 18:54:32 <szopin> qwazix: yeah, I've seen, even droid 3 on froyo
Aug 26 18:54:36 <qwazix> LjL-Alps, putting sailfish on an arbitrary Android device
Aug 26 18:55:11 <LjL-Alps> wow.
Aug 26 18:55:23 <qwazix> Their claim
Aug 26 18:55:45 <DocScrutinizer05> qwazix: sure, they re-use RIL
Aug 26 18:56:00 <DocScrutinizer05> and the GPU drivers as well aiui
Aug 26 18:56:12 <qwazix> yep, that's what I understand too
Aug 26 18:56:16 <szopin> hmmm... did anyone do comparisons in speed libhybris vs native though?
Aug 26 18:56:44 <szopin> if it turns out 50% slowdown jolla is going to need octa cores just like android :/
Aug 26 18:57:04 <DocScrutinizer05> it's kinda of a chroot with sailfish in it running under android, just that you do a pivot-root then ;-D
Aug 26 18:57:11 <qwazix> szopin, no, but videos of nemo on lowend hardware seem quite snappy
Aug 26 18:57:44 <DocScrutinizer05> my wild guess
Aug 26 18:57:49 <szopin> any 3d cube gl fps comparison?
Aug 26 18:58:02 <szopin> this could kill jolla if performance is bogged down
Aug 26 18:58:19 <szopin> they'll go in a race they cannot win
Aug 26 19:00:04 <DocScrutinizer05> Jolla dropped off my shelf of intriguing stuff when I learned about them using wayland
Aug 26 19:00:40 <DocScrutinizer05> "to allow full-HD video" LOLWUT?!
Aug 26 19:00:47 <szopin> :(
Aug 26 19:01:20 <szopin> same here, expecting a huge letdown when trying to compile things on device
Aug 26 19:01:40 <szopin> of course in 3 years everything will be wayland...
Aug 26 19:01:49 <DocScrutinizer05> no tmy desktop
Aug 26 19:01:53 <szopin> but then jolla is going to be lik n900 today
Aug 26 19:02:06 <szopin> ok, one last thing...
Aug 26 19:02:25 <DocScrutinizer05> and I doubt xev will be obsoleted by wev then
Aug 26 19:02:26 <qwazix> DocScrutinizer05, AIUI from here http://www.cnx-software.com/2013/04/21/how-to-use-libhybris-and-android-gpu-libraries-with-mer-linux-on-the-cubieboard/ there's no chroot
Aug 26 19:02:42 <szopin> what about those 2-3 devices based on intel?
Aug 26 19:02:44 <qwazix> just a folder with the android drivers
Aug 26 19:02:47 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, not really
Aug 26 19:02:58 <szopin> would that make it more likely for fremantle compatibility?
Aug 26 19:03:08 <DocScrutinizer05> but that's how they base on all the android stuff I guess
Aug 26 19:03:31 <szopin> all packages are in arm and 32
Aug 26 19:03:56 <DocScrutinizer05> create enough of an android environment (kernel domain) to make the drivers work, then put a standard kernel undor/over/aside to this
Aug 26 19:04:17 <qwazix> probably
Aug 26 19:04:31 <szopin> (both in maemo and android)
Aug 26 19:04:31 <szopin> would that help in any way?
Aug 26 19:05:23 <szopin> with intel standard cpu bluez is an option
Aug 26 19:05:23 <szopin> so the whole dalvik can go suck an ik
Aug 26 19:05:39 <qwazix> DocScrutinizer05, what is it that you love about X?
Aug 26 19:05:48 * DocScrutinizer05 feels terribly exhausted, Probably all serotonin tanks are empty now after ~36h of euphoria
Aug 26 19:05:52 <qwazix> because from what I read I can't wait for distros to switch to wayland
Aug 26 19:06:23 <DocScrutinizer05> qwazix: the fact that there is a knowledge base, tools, and a zillion of apps basing on it
Aug 26 19:06:25 <szopin> sure atom is not there yet, but anandtech was very positve about next gen intels
Aug 26 19:06:32 <szopin> docscrutinizer: get two valiums and a gram of coke and euphoria will be back
Aug 26 19:06:47 <qwazix> szopin, those few intel devices have powervr graphics
Aug 26 19:07:01 <qwazix> i.e. no gpu drivers for linux
Aug 26 19:07:03 <szopin> as n900
Aug 26 19:07:09 <qwazix> much newer
Aug 26 19:07:18 <qwazix> I doubt the same driver would work
Aug 26 19:07:32 <szopin> :(
Aug 26 19:07:51 <DocScrutinizer05> qwazix: figure I want to make my 14 mouse buttons emit arbitrary keystroke macros under wayland
Aug 26 19:07:53 <qwazix> DocScrutinizer05, :nod:
Aug 26 19:07:53 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: what about flash memory? are there any plans for internal flash besides onenand?
Aug 26 19:08:16 <DocScrutinizer05> good question, I dunno
Aug 26 19:08:24 <szopin> 1 gb of nand and sd
Aug 26 19:08:28 <szopin> no emmc
Aug 26 19:08:36 <DocScrutinizer05> in GTA04!!!!
Aug 26 19:08:40 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: guess who asked about the camera :P
Aug 26 19:09:04 <freemangordon> how expensive would be to add 16GB? any idea?
Aug 26 19:09:21 <DocScrutinizer05> some 20orso
Aug 26 19:09:25 <qwazix> DocScrutinizer05, I don't know about that, but I hear multiscreen finally works!
Aug 26 19:09:30 <szopin> gta04 on the page you linked in first post has 512/512/1gb
Aug 26 19:09:40 <qwazix> because under X I've got all kinds of problems...
Aug 26 19:09:42 <freemangordon> oh, make them 32 then :D
Aug 26 19:09:45 <szopin> probably a formatting nug
Aug 26 19:09:51 <szopin> bug*
Aug 26 19:09:59 <ShadowJK> Would be cool with a modern emmc too
Aug 26 19:10:09 <ShadowJK> even if it'd "still" be 32g
Aug 26 19:10:24 <szopin> get a new sdhc card and it will be faster
Aug 26 19:10:30 <szopin> for sequential reads at least
Aug 26 19:10:33 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: with a slot for uSD even 16 would be just fine
Aug 26 19:10:37 <DocScrutinizer05> szopin: goldelico was able to eventually source a better SoC with 1GB of NAND
Aug 26 19:10:49 <szopin> (700mb from emmc copy >> from sdhc)
Aug 26 19:10:51 <DocScrutinizer05> first GTA04 had 512MB
Aug 26 19:11:04 <szopin> in time, new sd are faster
Aug 26 19:11:06 <ShadowJK> szopin; yeah I mean there are emmcs now that are better suited for multitasking operarting systems :)
Aug 26 19:11:34 <freemangordon> I guess no UHS, ain't?
Aug 26 19:11:52 <szopin> shadow: sure, but N900 emmc sucks
Aug 26 19:11:59 <freemangordon> szopin: what?!?
Aug 26 19:12:02 <szopin> haven't made full benchmarks but new sammie sd gets good speeds even on random readwrites
Aug 26 19:12:11 <freemangordon> you have no clue, really
Aug 26 19:12:31 <ShadowJK> N900 emmc is like a very fast SD at its time
Aug 26 19:12:44 <szopin> fmg: was testing copying some random movie, from my 32gb card was some 15% faster than emmc
Aug 26 19:12:48 <freemangordon> szopin: I have one of those, it is still slightly slower than emmc
Aug 26 19:13:17 <szopin> no idea why, but here my card was faster
Aug 26 19:13:27 <ShadowJK> The thing about 2008-2009 era sd/emmc, is that they don't tolerate random writes at all
Aug 26 19:13:30 <DocScrutinizer05> emmc is 8bit interface, sd is 4 bit, no?
Aug 26 19:13:34 <freemangordon> szopin: what benchmark? connected via mass storage to the pc?
Aug 26 19:13:42 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: :nod:
Aug 26 19:13:43 <qwazix> szopin, because you were doing sequential read
Aug 26 19:13:44 <szopin> it's a card that gets >100kb/s on random readwrites though
Aug 26 19:13:51 <szopin> usb to pc
Aug 26 19:13:51 <ShadowJK> Whereas some chips today will have a small write cache to deal with it
Aug 26 19:13:56 <szopin> just copy file over
Aug 26 19:14:33 <ShadowJK> It's practically "impossible" to get exclusive access to the emmc for proper benchmarking
Aug 26 19:14:45 <ShadowJK> whereas nothing uses the uSD at all normally
Aug 26 19:14:57 <szopin> was "researching" for a couple of days, the 10MBit is only when writing on empty card
Aug 26 19:15:03 <ShadowJK> So usb to pc and similar tests aren't fair
Aug 26 19:15:14 <qwazix> ShadowJK, isn't emmc accessible in ACT_DEAD?
Aug 26 19:15:22 <szopin> but on copying a dir with 500+ files it was also giving me better perf
Aug 26 19:15:27 <qwazix> that wouldn't be almost exclusive?
Aug 26 19:15:46 <ShadowJK> If swap is on, or /home mounted, it's not
Aug 26 19:15:50 <dos1> I think one could run some alternative OS like SHR from SD
Aug 26 19:16:09 <freemangordon> dos1: on n900?
Aug 26 19:16:11 <szopin> sure, but use case trumps it... but wait also booting ubuntu was a breeze
Aug 26 19:16:15 <ShadowJK> Small files perf would be better on a good modern card, obviously
Aug 26 19:16:22 <dos1> freemangordon: yup
Aug 26 19:16:30 <DocScrutinizer05> qwazix: could you try to push for a vote of a council majority on donating a device to Nikolaus?
Aug 26 19:16:37 <szopin> while others were claimin it takes ages
Aug 26 19:16:41 <freemangordon> dos1: I think I still kepp ubuntu 12.04 image somewhere ;)
Aug 26 19:16:46 <freemangordon> *keep
Aug 26 19:16:55 <qwazix> I don't know how ACT_DEAD deals with swap and /home, I just remember plugging the N900 to pc while off and having mass storage access.
Aug 26 19:16:55 <szopin> new sd cards can really stomp on old ones in terms of speed
Aug 26 19:17:04 <ShadowJK> Anyway, this was my original point, that it would be nice to have a modern emmc, with the logstructured slc write cache, and trim support.
Aug 26 19:17:09 <freemangordon> qwazix: this was disabled in PR1.2
Aug 26 19:17:20 <freemangordon> iirc
Aug 26 19:17:32 <DocScrutinizer05> check runlevels
Aug 26 19:17:35 <szopin> and compression on rootfs
Aug 26 19:17:35 <freemangordon> for security reasons, as you're not asked for lock code
Aug 26 19:17:36 <qwazix> DocScrutinizer05, if I count as council majority you have it right now. Otherwise there's little I can do. Meetings haven't been really productive lately
Aug 26 19:17:53 <ShadowJK> rootfs isn't on emmc
Aug 26 19:17:53 <qwazix> freemangordon, rly? That's how often I use mass storage :P
Aug 26 19:17:57 <szopin> (it's a sucky compression btw, just checked my 198mb re in fact 320)
Aug 26 19:18:17 <ShadowJK> Probably lzop
Aug 26 19:18:21 <DocScrutinizer05> qwazix: well, we need one more vote aiui
Aug 26 19:18:30 <freemangordon> szopin: and this is the rest of the storry, the start being the swap ;)
Aug 26 19:18:32 <szopin> 1gb should be enough
Aug 26 19:18:53 <szopin> fmg: we could uncompress rootfs?
Aug 26 19:19:01 <thedead1440> DocScrutinizer05: fwiw, i am +1 on donating the device too...
Aug 26 19:19:15 <DocScrutinizer05> so we're done. Thanks
Aug 26 19:19:16 <freemangordon> szopin: that is why I insist A8 even running on 600 MHz is just fine
Aug 26 19:19:19 <thedead1440> btw haven't been this curious in a long time :)
Aug 26 19:19:28 <freemangordon> szopin: sure we can
Aug 26 19:19:29 <szopin> sorry, yoda placement
Aug 26 19:19:29 <szopin> could we?*
Aug 26 19:19:43 <szopin> how?
Aug 26 19:19:47 <freemangordon> if we have enough rootfs scpce
Aug 26 19:20:10 <szopin> on current N900?
Aug 26 19:20:20 <qwazix> freemangordon, do we really need rootfs? Harmattan seems to go along fine while installed in emmc
Aug 26 19:20:21 <Win7Mac> DocScrutinizer05, can't you just send him 1 of your 5 devices as a loan?
Aug 26 19:20:22 <freemangordon> can't remember exactly, see cssu-thumb thread
Aug 26 19:20:24 <szopin> optifying as much as we... oh fukc it, opt is slower
Aug 26 19:20:34 <freemangordon> szopin: no, it is not
Aug 26 19:20:42 <szopin> ???
Aug 26 19:20:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I won't loan devices to get them disassembled
Aug 26 19:20:53 <DocScrutinizer05> I also don't loan my GF
Aug 26 19:20:57 <szopin> I can loan one
Aug 26 19:21:05 <szopin> if I get neo900 in return sure
Aug 26 19:21:09 <freemangordon> opt is not slower than rootfs, at least not much
Aug 26 19:21:13 <Win7Mac> I (as treasurer) feel kind of hijacked by GTA project
Aug 26 19:21:26 <thedead1440> Win7Mac: what do you mean?
Aug 26 19:21:27 <szopin> than you claim emmc not so slower than nand
Aug 26 19:21:40 <freemangordon> Win7Mac: what?
Aug 26 19:21:41 <DocScrutinizer05> Win7Mac: I however would forward one of my devices to him and get a replacement for my shelf later
Aug 26 19:21:50 <szopin> or rather emmcc not so much slower than nand iqith sucky compression
Aug 26 19:22:06 <szopin> with*
Aug 26 19:22:08 <Win7Mac> i will not stand in the way of aany majority
Aug 26 19:22:14 <ShadowJK> I wouldn't want rootfs on emmc, atleast not if the emmc is as primitive as the one in n900. Writes from things like fennec can keep emmc busy for 10s of seconds at a time, during which read access to /opt suffers 1000+ ms latencies :)
Aug 26 19:22:21 <dos1> DocScrutinizer05: so you'll send him your GF to get new one later? ;)
Aug 26 19:22:32 <freemangordon> :D
Aug 26 19:22:42 <freemangordon> this is the community spirit :P
Aug 26 19:22:45 <qwazix> Nokia thought NAND was so much better that they developed a whole new filesystem for it, but then ditched it in the next gen.
Aug 26 19:22:55 <szopin> this is a ram problem is a big way, try copying 250mb+ file
Aug 26 19:22:59 <szopin> in*
Aug 26 19:23:07 <SpeedEvil> qwazix: they're right.
Aug 26 19:23:08 <ShadowJK> The availability of nand got worse
Aug 26 19:23:10 <Win7Mac> cool project, definetely deserves HiFo support! just not sure about the donations
Aug 26 19:23:15 <szopin> after ram available n900 slows to a halt
Aug 26 19:23:18 <SpeedEvil> qwazix: the problem is that nobody sells 32gb nand
Aug 26 19:23:24 <freemangordon> qwazix: if we run NAND uncompressed it will be much better IMO
Aug 26 19:23:33 <SpeedEvil> 32gigabyte
Aug 26 19:23:34 <qwazix> the N9 also has NAND which is unused IIRC
Aug 26 19:23:56 <thedead1440> Win7Mac: one device is not a big deal considering the amount rob was considering wasting for $random solutions when deciding on hosting and not much of a fuss being made at that time
Aug 26 19:24:02 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: what about using NAND as swap?
Aug 26 19:24:23 <ShadowJK> szopin; well it starts using swap, which when mixed in with the copy slows things down alot. In general the emmc slows down to like 100kB/sec if subjected to more than a few sequential streams, or a single random write stream
Aug 26 19:24:23 <freemangordon> for how long will it last?
Aug 26 19:24:31 <qwazix> freemangordon, I'm not exactly sure, but I was talking with a guy that was in the team that designed that thing, and he said that ubifs was needed for some reason
Aug 26 19:24:56 <ShadowJK> freemangordon; with rolling sequential write access, years
Aug 26 19:24:57 <qwazix> (no hardware wear-levelling or something)
Aug 26 19:25:10 <DocScrutinizer05> Win7Mac: I will inform Nikolaus, so he can remember when it's coming to handing out Neo900 prototypes
Aug 26 19:25:15 <ShadowJK> That's true for the onenand
Aug 26 19:25:27 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: so, we can stay with 512 RAM, swap on NAND and root on eMMC, right?
Aug 26 19:25:42 <ShadowJK> No possibility of 1G?
Aug 26 19:25:51 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: iiuc
Aug 26 19:25:58 <Win7Mac> Doc, that's what I'm talking about: exchange a set, you'll be 1st tester anyway...
Aug 26 19:26:00 <ShadowJK> aw :(
Aug 26 19:26:04 <freemangordon> but I guess it is still to be decided
Aug 26 19:26:13 <ShadowJK> If it's a good emmc
Aug 26 19:26:35 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: I am trying to count all the sane possibilities
Aug 26 19:26:39 <ShadowJK> But unless you're buying 100kunits, they wont tell you anything about it except its capacity
Aug 26 19:27:28 <Win7Mac> It's just that I'd be happier if we could handle this without donATIONS: but as i said, i won't hinder anything
Aug 26 19:27:38 <DocScrutinizer05> Win7Mac: that's not how i work. I know my folks and have good relations to them
Aug 26 19:28:08 <Win7Mac> yeah, me too ;)
Aug 26 19:28:12 <DocScrutinizer05> sth board never wrapped their head around, when it came to moving server to IPHH for example
Aug 26 19:28:13 <ShadowJK> is this donation of a device from "maemo" to "openmoko"?
Aug 26 19:28:35 <qwazix> If sd's can be almost as fast as emmc, why not use the space and just go dual-sd?
Aug 26 19:28:48 <qwazix> one could even be soldered on
Aug 26 19:29:15 <DocScrutinizer05> and on a sidenote: board is not up to decide about donations, unless they are obviously rogue or abusive
Aug 26 19:29:17 <freemangordon> qwazix: no need for dual uSD, given the capacity of the modern cards
Aug 26 19:29:22 <DocScrutinizer05> it council to decide
Aug 26 19:29:29 <DocScrutinizer05> ot's*
Aug 26 19:29:32 <DocScrutinizer05> damn
Aug 26 19:29:35 <ShadowJK> I'd like dual
Aug 26 19:29:37 <dos1> ShadowJK: "Maemo community donates N900 device to Openmoko community", tomorrow on /.
Aug 26 19:29:42 <qwazix> freemangordon, there is. Swappability
Aug 26 19:29:46 <ShadowJK> just to partition off the abusive apps
Aug 26 19:30:00 <freemangordon> oh, I see
Aug 26 19:30:05 <ShadowJK> (fennec, gpodder's sql databases, etc...)
Aug 26 19:30:09 <szopin> I can donate N900 and I'm sure alot otherpeople can
Aug 26 19:30:12 <freemangordon> yeah, got it
Aug 26 19:30:17 <szopin> there was an offer already in the thread
Aug 26 19:30:33 <Win7Mac> ok, before this gets ridiculous: I'll happily sign the check if needed
Aug 26 19:30:39 <ShadowJK> I was just wondering what the treasurer talk was about
Aug 26 19:30:49 <szopin> Just wondering why it is easier*/faster for me to copy a 700mb file from sd than emmc
Aug 26 19:30:53 <Win7Mac> but please don't blame me for looking after *our* money
Aug 26 19:30:56 <szopin> they do"mt get fragmented, so why?
Aug 26 19:31:30 <ShadowJK> szopin; because the emmc gets interrupted by write activity
Aug 26 19:31:37 <ShadowJK> /home and swap
Aug 26 19:31:43 <RiD> stupd net
Aug 26 19:32:15 <szopin> shadow: same conditions, no aptget in background, copy movie fromemmc takes longer than from sd
Aug 26 19:32:34 <ShadowJK> If you move swap to uSD, and read from or write to emmc, you get pretty nice speeds.
Aug 26 19:32:36 <szopin> no write activity afaik on borth
Aug 26 19:32:44 <freemangordon> szopin: there is always somethin touching the emmc
Aug 26 19:32:53 <dos1> szopin: swapoff -a
Aug 26 19:32:56 <szopin> in that 5 minutes?
Aug 26 19:33:19 <ShadowJK> swapoff works as long as no apps needing anything from /opt are active
Aug 26 19:33:34 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: also, I m not sure vfat on emmc doesn;t suffer from fragmentation :)
Aug 26 19:33:36 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
Aug 26 19:33:46 <szopin> it does
Aug 26 19:33:51 <szopin> it's fat
Aug 26 19:33:56 <DocScrutinizer05> how is swapoff related to /opt?
Aug 26 19:33:56 <ShadowJK> freemangordon; yeah but it's not as evil as ext3 on emmc
Aug 26 19:34:12 <szopin> my sd is ext3 btw
Aug 26 19:34:19 <szopin> so maybe here is speed?
Aug 26 19:34:21 <freemangordon> oooh
Aug 26 19:34:22 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer05; as a means to prevent IO to emmc
Aug 26 19:34:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I still don't see it
Aug 26 19:35:05 <ShadowJK> vfat is like 3-4 times less computational load for emmc/sd
Aug 26 19:35:21 <szopin> shouldn't impact opt... need gto check read/write opt svs sd
Aug 26 19:35:32 <szopin> vs
Aug 26 19:35:42 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: but it is vfat, so most probably it is fragmented all over the place
Aug 26 19:35:43 <DocScrutinizer05> to get issues with /opt you need to unmount or otherwise block the partitoon where /opt lives. Unrelated to swap which is a whole different partition
Aug 26 19:36:25 <ShadowJK> freemangordon; not too badly, I've checked from time to time as I often run at 99percent use on MyDocs...
Aug 26 19:36:54 <ShadowJK> freemangordon; linux seems to allocate stuff slightly smarter than win9x back in the day
Aug 26 19:36:59 <szopin> the one thing that totally sells me to neo900 is: we can fix the bad ideas nokians had (256mb of rootfs etc)
Aug 26 19:37:39 <freemangordon> szopin: I still think it was decided that way because nokians were planning to use thumb2
Aug 26 19:38:03 <ShadowJK> szopin; me on the other hand like having as many storage devices as possible so the load can be spread out :)
Aug 26 19:38:09 <szopin> ok, I admit I didn't have time yet to try thumb cssu
Aug 26 19:38:59 <ShadowJK> My Asus android tablet is, when loading webpages, limited by emmc I/O more than half the time. All 4 cores idle waiting for IO.. 
Aug 26 19:39:20 <freemangordon> szopin: it shaves about 35MB of executable code, while only about 5% of the code is recompiled
Aug 26 19:39:31 <ShadowJK> It's the biggest bottleneck on almost all current smartphones really.
Aug 26 19:39:33 <szopin> this might sell me to omap3 with "just" ram increaase
Aug 26 19:40:02 <szopin> fmg: 35mb free rootfs you mean?
Aug 26 19:40:03 <freemangordon> I admit most of that is QT, but still, imagine if everything was thumb2-compiled
Aug 26 19:40:19 <freemangordon> 35MB down I mean, Qt is on /opt
Aug 26 19:41:12 <szopin> we need elop
Aug 26 19:41:29 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: wait, doesn;t kernel cache the stuff?
Aug 26 19:41:34 <trx> lol
Aug 26 19:41:37 <szopin> to drop all maemo ownership and give us code, thumb2 all that
Aug 26 19:41:46 <qwazix> freemangordon, what makes you think they were planning to use thumb? modest bug?
Aug 26 19:42:03 <freemangordon> qwazix: no, the size of RAM/onenand
Aug 26 19:42:24 <szopin> lol, those are time limitations, remind yourself about 2009
Aug 26 19:42:35 <szopin> and imagine us discussing octa cores
Aug 26 19:42:35 <ShadowJK> freemangordon; fsync and fflush is the great killer.. databases loves to use those.. and everything uses databases these days.
Aug 26 19:42:48 <freemangordon> and they hit the omap bug too late to change anything but the compiler flags
Aug 26 19:43:02 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: hmm, yeah, makes sense
Aug 26 19:43:21 <qwazix> freemangordon, possible, and they forgot to change it for modest (or was it tinymail?)
Aug 26 19:43:34 <freemangordon> qwazix: no, it was MohammadAG :D
Aug 26 19:43:58 <qwazix> really? I thought that modest was crashing since PR1.0
Aug 26 19:44:08 <freemangordon> qwazix: no
Aug 26 19:44:08 <qwazix> In fact I was pretty sure about that
Aug 26 19:44:21 <qwazix> You're probably right
Aug 26 19:44:32 <freemangordon> the only thig that is thumb-compiled is facebook-something, and it is in OVI store
Aug 26 19:44:40 <ShadowJK> that's one piece of sw that's never crashed on me
Aug 26 19:44:52 <szopin> modest?
Aug 26 19:44:59 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: you don;t have it installed?
Aug 26 19:45:12 <qwazix> That couldn't be it, my only interaction with facebook-something was uninstalling the launcher
Aug 26 19:45:16 <ShadowJK> I use it daily
Aug 26 19:45:47 * qwazix wonders why people bash modest so angrily
Aug 26 19:46:04 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: do readelf -A on /opt/.../libfacebook-something.so
Aug 26 19:46:20 <ShadowJK> I meant modest
Aug 26 19:46:24 <freemangordon> ooh
Aug 26 19:46:28 <szopin> gmail stopped working, whether it's tinymail bug or modest, who cares, modest sucks
Aug 26 19:46:49 <thedead1440> qwazix: because the very moment you require it urgently, it will hang up on you at that time; just like fennix ;)
Aug 26 19:46:51 <qwazix> I find it much better than those thin crap clients that only search through the last 30 mails on modern smartphones
Aug 26 19:47:10 <freemangordon> qwazix: mag compiled it by mistake with -mthumb in one of the cssu versions, as Maemo SDK VM comes with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=...,thumb,... by default
Aug 26 19:47:28 <freemangordon> szopin: fized in CSSU ;)
Aug 26 19:47:33 <freemangordon> fixed even
Aug 26 19:47:35 <qwazix> thedead1440, I have fallen back to modest after fenix crashed on me countless times and it never failed me, just a bit slow
Aug 26 19:47:59 <RiD> there's a modest alternative?!
Aug 26 19:48:13 <RiD> honestly modest only crashed on me once, other times its just a bit slow like qwazix says
Aug 26 19:48:21 <szopin> fmg: I know, my daily handset is CSUU broken somehow so I'm few releases backwards, works fine on the other
Aug 26 19:48:41 <thedead1440> ya that slow part; when you really need that email, modest will take forever to load. nearly threw my n900 in a fit of anger once due to this reason :) 
Aug 26 19:48:58 <ShadowJK> images load slow for me
Aug 26 19:49:19 <RiD> microb is terrible on big images
Aug 26 19:49:40 <SAiF> i dont think so
Aug 26 19:50:01 <RiD> open something 1920x1080 or bigger
Aug 26 19:50:08 <RiD> it will die and beg you to stop
Aug 26 19:50:17 <RiD> black 5kb image does not count
Aug 26 19:50:20 <freemangordon> RiD: it is the lack of RAM that makes it slow ;)
Aug 26 19:50:22 <qwazix> RiD, "microb reboots the phone at big images" <-- there I fixed it
Aug 26 19:50:31 <RiD> ehh sorry it does not reboot my phone
Aug 26 19:50:33 <szopin> nah 4000x... is a pain
Aug 26 19:50:41 <RiD> szopin opera handles it a little better
Aug 26 19:50:47 <szopin> 1920x works quite alright (805mhz at least)
Aug 26 19:50:48 <ShadowJK> The limit is more at 3000x... for me
Aug 26 19:50:52 <RiD> though if you abuse it, it'll eventually crash or slow down like a turtle
Aug 26 19:51:00 <ShadowJK> 1920 is trivial
Aug 26 19:51:03 <RiD> szopin maybe you are right
Aug 26 19:51:09 <ShadowJK> I open that on N800
Aug 26 19:51:14 <RiD> still, even at these images sometimes zooming on them etc is a bit screwed
Aug 26 19:51:15 <ShadowJK> (that wasnt a typo)
Aug 26 19:51:33 <RiD> it takes a long time to redraw the image
Aug 26 19:51:49 <RiD> not long as in 30 seconds but you know :(
Aug 26 19:51:54 <szopin> yeah, there is a looot that could be fixed in microb
Aug 26 19:52:13 <szopin> lower part of the page reappearing for few multiseconds when scrolling down
Aug 26 19:52:19 <RiD> i switch from opera and microb all day
Aug 26 19:52:25 <szopin> this is so annoying
Aug 26 19:52:40 <szopin> but... even neo900 won't fix it
Aug 26 19:52:51 <RiD> something with big images, opera. Or something with heavy scripts, opera also tends to be the winner. On the other side, microb just feels better and more friendly
Aug 26 19:53:14 <RiD> browsing the forums for example is uncomfortable on opera, but fine on microb
Aug 26 19:53:17 <szopin> mouse mode trumps all
Aug 26 19:53:24 <szopin> I so wish they opened this
Aug 26 19:53:34 <szopin> tmo works great
Aug 26 19:53:44 <szopin> openpandora forums... oh jeez
Aug 26 19:54:00 <RiD> IPB
Aug 26 19:54:02 <RiD> meh, me dislike
Aug 26 19:54:32 <szopin> reddit with all the time: stop script/wait...
Aug 26 19:55:08 <szopin> there's a lot of room for improvement, sadly with mouse mode closed we're pretty much stuck
Aug 26 19:55:43 <szopin> and it works flash so nicely.... one of the reasons I'm looking for fremanlte
Aug 26 19:56:11 <RiD> i remember when flash was a "punch" line to sell android
Aug 26 19:56:15 <RiD> no longer supported...
Aug 26 19:56:21 <RiD> (officially)
Aug 26 19:56:49 <szopin> well even desktop linux is closed for flash... 
Aug 26 19:58:39 <SAiF0> an opencl webpage, will it open on n900 http://yase.chnk.us/
Aug 26 20:00:03 <RiD> oh my gosh 3d effects
Aug 26 20:00:06 <RiD> this is the future of the web
Aug 26 20:00:15 <RiD> 3D moving and tilting text
Aug 26 20:01:31 <DocScrutinizer05> I call it a day
Aug 26 20:02:40 <szopin> gn
Aug 26 20:06:19 <thedead1440> o/ see ya doc
Aug 26 20:07:52 <szopin> wb
Aug 26 20:13:52 <szopin> where is bootloader defined?
Aug 26 20:13:56 <szopin> (as in closed vs open)
Aug 26 20:14:22 <szopin> just noticed galaxy A has same cpu/gpu but Qgb ram
Aug 26 20:14:26 <szopin> 1*
Aug 26 20:15:14 <szopin> if same board is still in prod we could have step 1: galaxy A, same old shit, just 1gb ram
Aug 26 20:15:21 <szopin> vs 3730+
Aug 26 20:54:15 <_ade_> freemangordon: any clue on this (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1369536&postcount=111)?
Aug 26 21:07:22 <raccoon_> anyone has a rough approx on how much faster you'll drain your battery when overclocking?
Aug 26 21:07:49 <raccoon_> is it crazy to assume a linear factor equal to the frequency increase? :-P
Aug 26 21:12:09 <RiD> yep its crazy
Aug 26 21:12:14 <RiD> because of the voltages
Aug 26 21:12:37 <RiD> sure the battery will drain quicker, but keep in mind the n900 does not stay at the maximum frequency all time
Aug 26 21:12:53 <RiD> f.e. background music it can stay at 250mhz
Aug 26 21:26:26 <szopin> re
Aug 26 21:42:38 <raccoon_> RiD: roger that
Aug 26 21:44:50 <RiD> affirmative
Aug 27 00:08:23 <RiD> hi, what's an acceptable price for an used, screen scratch-free n900, with everything working?
Aug 27 00:09:08 <GeneralAntilles> $250?
Aug 27 00:09:22 <RiD> o_o you serious?
Aug 27 00:09:24 <GeneralAntilles> Go see what they're selling for on eBay
Aug 27 00:09:29 <GeneralAntilles> I have no idea.
Aug 27 00:09:53 <RiD> im looking at local deals
Aug 27 00:10:00 <RiD> "local" as in Portugal
Aug 27 00:11:30 <RiD> found one for 70� (euros), negotiable
Aug 27 00:34:55 <Win7Mac> please visit http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1369628#post1369628 share your thoughts regarding the move of HiFo and help translate GER>EN
Aug 27 00:45:07 <LjL-Alps> uh, just learned about SHR. well, what can be learned without installing it that is. how many other free OS's for my N900 (and a prospective Galaxy Nexus) am i missing, i wonder? O.o
Aug 27 00:45:41 <RiD> shr?
Aug 27 00:45:49 <RiD> that's new for me
Aug 27 00:47:23 <LjL-Alps> RiD: http://shr-project.org/ probably related to OpenMoko, OpenEmbedded, Qtopia, Familiar, stuff like that, but i'm confused at the moment
Aug 27 01:20:46 <kwtm> I agree
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Aug 27 02:59:58 2013