**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Sep 19 02:59:59 2013 Sep 19 04:51:43 hm Sep 19 04:51:55 windows rt doesnt support bt dun or adhoc Sep 19 04:52:04 it's android v2.0 Sep 19 04:53:21 can someone please help me out with configuring bt pan in maemo? Sep 19 04:53:30 for the life of me i cant figure it out lol Sep 19 04:55:29 hi Sep 19 04:56:01 from 2010 Sep 19 04:56:05 http://maemo.org/community/maemo-users/bluetooth_pan_on_n900/ Sep 19 04:56:09 heh Sep 19 04:59:12 my nokia 770' lcd is full of signs Sep 19 04:59:45 do you know where can i find lcd for replacement ? Sep 19 05:01:07 well. seems my maemo.org login isnt working Sep 19 05:01:08 awesome Sep 19 05:01:52 cant click on register in microb either. blah Sep 19 05:02:22 The last I recall, one couldn't register via microB. Sep 19 05:02:47 nobody sees how awesomely bad that is? :) Sep 19 05:03:00 As for 770's LCD replacement screen I'm not sure. Even Ebay would be a far fetched idea. Sep 19 05:03:00 maemo.org... cant register via maemo hehe Sep 19 05:03:15 that like not being able to use gmail in chrome Sep 19 05:03:41 I've filed a bug for it upon hearing someone was talking about it. I've tried it myself and it was true hence I filed a bug. I have yet to hear any updates. Sep 19 05:05:25 ah well Sep 19 05:05:38 im going to try to see if i can get bt pan working Sep 19 05:05:42 :-/ Sep 19 05:05:51 wish mobilehotspot supported it Sep 19 05:08:13 DisablePlugins = network,hal Sep 19 05:08:15 heh Sep 19 05:08:22 It is a little ironic thinking about it. I recall there was a patent war with I think it was adhoc on mobile devices. It was somewhat the reason that it forced Google to use proper AP mode for wifi hot spot and not adhoc. If such were the case, then it would be ironic for windows to not support adhoc afterall it owns a fair proportion of nokia anyway. Sep 19 05:11:18 any other person has had my own problem with lcd's nokia 770 ? Sep 19 05:11:35 heh well... Sep 19 05:11:40 im kind of stuck Sep 19 05:11:43 an lcd full of signs after 7 years Sep 19 05:11:57 im trying to figure out how to configure pan in maemo Sep 19 05:12:04 and documentation is scarce Sep 19 05:12:17 i guess maemo/n900 has to be the "server" Sep 19 05:12:40 but there is no information on how to configure it so other devices can hook up to it :( Sep 19 05:16:27 natsukao_, maybe on the forums but no guarantees. Sep 19 05:17:01 Macer, sounds like whoever made BT PAN work didn't want to document it. :p a good chance for you to step up to the challenge and to write a nice wiki entry for it. Sep 19 05:17:16 if i can figure it out i will Sep 19 05:17:22 anyone knows which is the builder of that lcd ? Sep 19 05:17:43 apparently it is done in /etc/bluetooth/main.conf Sep 19 05:17:50 natsukao_: ebay a new one Sep 19 05:17:53 thanks psycho_oeros Sep 19 05:18:07 thanks macer Sep 19 05:18:43 psycho_oreos: i guess it is more a bluetoothd thing than a maemo thing Sep 19 05:19:15 you have to enale bluetooth pan... or at lease un-disable it Sep 19 05:19:51 Macer, still it needs documenting, no? :) Sep 19 05:19:51 then configure soeme sort of network Sep 19 05:19:52 heh Sep 19 05:20:50 yeah but i need to figure out how to do it first :) Sep 19 05:20:51 i will document it if i can Sep 19 05:21:17 sorry Sep 19 05:21:43 my shell crashed, while i was setting up a background Sep 19 05:21:50 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8995803 Sep 19 05:26:51 psycho_oreos: bug number? (registration) Sep 19 05:27:28 http://forum.doozan.com/read.php?2,2698 Sep 19 05:27:35 maybe that will be better to use Sep 19 05:28:24 what is phonet0 Sep 19 05:28:27 ? Sep 19 05:29:41 DocScrutinizer05, crap, I'm searching for that now. I had it on my laptop (till it died). Sep 19 05:29:50 is there the possibility to bypass that shit of flash on the browser ? Sep 19 05:30:08 Macer: nothing you want to know Sep 19 05:30:30 heh Sep 19 05:30:36 ok Sep 19 05:30:36 that flash is not anymore supported, it was a version for nokia 770, and it does not exists nymore for nokia 770 Sep 19 05:30:43 DocScrutinizer05: bridge_ports eth0 Sep 19 05:30:52 when creating a bridge to pan tether Sep 19 05:30:52 DocScrutinizer05, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12703 <-- I don't have any maemo devices to test (for now...) Sep 19 05:30:54 04Bug 12703: Unable to register on talk.maemo.org forums. Sep 19 05:31:05 * DocScrutinizer05 talks some ISI to Macer Sep 19 05:31:05 i would assume i am using gprs0 Sep 19 05:31:10 as the port? Sep 19 05:31:39 it was developed just for nokia, and never was available an update, so that flash, is stopped to an old version Sep 19 05:31:47 im reading a debian guide on how to configure a pan server Sep 19 05:31:47 gprs0 sounds like a proper internet access NIC Sep 19 05:32:00 trying to figure this out Sep 19 05:32:17 so i can document it for the poor saps like myself who have a surface Sep 19 05:32:18 phonet0 is some gibberish you for sure don't want to learn details about Sep 19 05:32:22 or android tablet Sep 19 05:32:26 it has not sense to have a dated version of flash, that is not anymore possible to use, because unsupported Sep 19 05:32:38 which both only support bt pan and infrastructure mode Sep 19 05:32:38 hot to remove it ? Sep 19 05:32:48 DocScrutinizer05: ok Sep 19 05:32:56 let me keep trying this out Sep 19 05:33:06 natsukao, I sort of doubt its possible to bypass. On N900 (I know, completely different and somewhat irrelevant). It is possible to tweak flash version and there was a leaked flash player available. Though for 770 it may seem somewhat unlikely. Sep 19 05:33:46 well, good idea of adobe and nokia Sep 19 05:35:00 is there a way to install a sort of Tor for nokia 770 ? Sep 19 05:35:38 i know is available Tor for Nokia 900 Sep 19 05:36:20 Macer: ping -I gprs0 8.8.8.8 should work Sep 19 05:36:41 Macer: ...as long as you're actually connected via GPRS to internet Sep 19 05:37:06 DocScrutinizer05: i see Sep 19 05:37:24 I guess you might need to use scratchbox and compile it for 770 by hand natsukao. Your best bet for all your 770 issues would probably be best targeted at maemo.org forums. I don't think there are many active 770 owners here on IRC. Sep 19 05:37:38 it does Sep 19 05:37:58 but i dont understand how you are supposed to bridge bnep0 Sep 19 05:38:18 when bnep0 is a virtual device that pops up after a device tries to network to it Sep 19 05:38:24 err, it uses pnatd in a way, afaik Sep 19 05:38:45 or nope, wait# Sep 19 05:38:54 prolly socat can do the trick? Sep 19 05:38:58 the maemo documentation is useless for this heh Sep 19 05:39:08 there is really not much out there Sep 19 05:39:20 just small mentions of pan and ancient wikis Sep 19 05:39:55 sorry, no PAN devices here to test Sep 19 05:40:34 aiui simply piping with socat between bnep and gprs should work, eh? Sep 19 05:40:49 no idea how to do that Sep 19 05:40:55 poor man's bridge Sep 19 05:40:57 my knowledge in this area is limited Sep 19 05:41:00 yah Sep 19 05:41:04 im reading debian docs Sep 19 05:41:13 since that is the closest distro to maemo Sep 19 05:41:23 man socat Sep 19 05:41:42 hmmm Sep 19 05:41:46 ~man socat Sep 19 05:41:47 No manual entry for socat Sep 19 05:41:52 LOL Sep 19 05:41:59 ~man date Sep 19 05:41:59 No manual entry for date Sep 19 05:42:08 ~literal man xx Sep 19 05:42:08 No manual entry for xx Sep 19 05:42:17 heh Sep 19 05:42:17 ~literal man (.?) Sep 19 05:42:18 No manual entry for (.?) Sep 19 05:42:23 f u infobot Sep 19 05:42:25 i dont see socat Sep 19 05:42:26 is it part of a pkg? Sep 19 05:42:49 socat? hmm Sep 19 05:43:01 ~dinfo socat Sep 19 05:43:16 socat: (multipurpose relay for bidirectional data transfer), section net, is extra. Version: 1.7.2.2-1 (sid), Packaged size: 374 kB, Installed size: 891 kB Sep 19 05:43:48 is it in devel? Sep 19 05:43:57 nfc Sep 19 05:44:02 haha Sep 19 05:45:32 http://pastebin.com/8wa2paN7 Sep 19 05:45:35 well Sep 19 05:45:49 i added that bottom section to see if i can get a bridge going Sep 19 05:46:02 hopefully it doesnt bork my gprs0 heh Sep 19 05:46:43 ~man man Sep 19 05:46:43 No manual entry for man Sep 19 05:46:50 pffffff Sep 19 05:48:17 ~man woman Sep 19 05:48:18 No manual entry for woman Sep 19 05:48:44 ~listkeys man Sep 19 05:48:46 Factoid search of 'man' by key (17 of 635): a.h.: artificial humanoid ;; and pacman ;; babelfish en th hanuman ;; blind man ;; command list ;; country oman ;; dickman ;; fman ;; gazman ;; gnome2 mini commander ;; human response time ;; humans ;; i've only added one command, and it ;; jmanv ;; kaiman ;; kzacman ;; manson. Sep 19 05:48:51 God Sep 19 05:49:09 ~factinfo man Sep 19 05:49:09 man -- last modified at Tue Apr 18 08:09:56 2006 by Tem!n=Tem@adsl-212-53-107.lft.bellsouth.net; it has been requested 21 times, last by youtah at Thu Jul 25 18:47:28 2013. Sep 19 05:49:20 ~man Sep 19 05:49:21 Tem and Tain are the man. Sep 19 05:49:24 seems that Nokia altered the linux kernel for nokia 770 Sep 19 05:49:51 ~literal man (.?) Sep 19 05:49:52 No manual entry for (.?) Sep 19 05:50:01 ~literal cmd: man (.?) Sep 19 05:50:05 I guess nokia would have for every other devices nokia produces running on linux platform. Sep 19 05:50:35 * psycho_oreos still chuckles at that lkml link. Sep 19 05:51:38 hm Sep 19 05:52:11 Patch contains two lines... >> needs to be split >> new email new patch >> wtf.. two lines with the latter additional line being and only that. Sep 19 05:52:19 what pkg is brctl a part of? Sep 19 05:52:24 https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2008-September/019285.html Tor on Nokia Internet Tablet? Sep 19 05:53:53 ~dinfo brctl Sep 19 05:54:07 * Macer looks around Sep 19 05:55:22 http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/b/bridge-utils/bridge-utils_1.4-5_armel.deb Sep 19 05:55:27 hm Sep 19 05:56:05 ugh Sep 19 05:56:53 where is possible to buy Torx screw for Nokia 770 ? Sep 19 05:57:52 err, that should be available in fleabay Sep 19 05:58:08 ~dfind brctl Sep 19 05:58:12 Debian Search of 'brctl' (4 of 7): (/sbin/brctl) in net/bridge-utils ;; (/usr/share/selinux/mls/brctl.pp) in admin/selinux-policy-mls ;; (/usr/share/selinux/default/brctl.pp) in admin/selinux-policy-default ;; (/usr/share/zsh/functions/Completion/Linux/_brctl) in shells/zsh-common. Sep 19 05:58:52 ~dfind 5 brctl Sep 19 05:58:56 Debian Package/File/Desc Search of '5 brctl' returned no results. Sep 19 05:59:05 stupid Sep 19 05:59:48 oh.... Sep 19 06:00:28 Dunno if this helps (BT PAN): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php/images/smilies/showthread.php?t=58570 Sep 19 06:00:37 also Sep 19 06:00:39 ~pkg Sep 19 06:00:40 i guess pkg is http://maemo.org/packages/ Sep 19 06:05:35 is there in any repository Tor for nokia 770 ? Sep 19 06:06:24 pc-connectivity-manager Sep 19 06:06:25 ? Sep 19 06:07:49 i thought that was broken Sep 19 06:08:03 in: http://maemo.org/packages/view/tor/ Sep 19 06:08:54 i found many packages named Tor, anyone knows, which is the latest version for nokia 770 ? Sep 19 06:12:19 In that link you provided, none are probably suitable for 770. Sep 19 06:14:51 lol the phonebloks video got 12mil views now Sep 19 06:16:41 natsukao, maybe http://p.quinput.eu/debfarm/pool/tor_0.1.2.17-1_armel.deb from http://www.gronmayer.com/it/index.php Sep 19 06:26:36 ifconfig bnep0 down Sep 19 06:26:37 ifconfig: SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device Sep 19 06:26:37 + ifconfig bnep0 up Sep 19 06:26:40 fml Sep 19 06:31:39 i am at a loss Sep 19 06:31:57 i need to figure out how to get rt to see this n900 as a pan device Sep 19 06:32:13 so it will detect the profile and see it as such Sep 19 06:32:29 i give up for now. spent enough time on it Sep 19 06:33:58 now my tablet nokia 770, is chargin the battery Sep 19 06:34:56 i found all these Tor packages, but i don't undestand why one of these does not work :-( http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/t/tor/ Sep 19 06:35:17 because fremantle wont run on n770 Sep 19 06:35:48 whois fremantle ? Sep 19 06:36:01 i doubt you will even find a functional tor method on n770 Sep 19 06:36:14 you may have better luck finding another os to use Sep 19 06:36:34 fremantle is the codename for N900. Sep 19 06:36:51 http://wiki.maemo.org/Codenames Sep 19 06:37:08 no Sep 19 06:37:17 the codename for N900 is RX-51 Sep 19 06:37:26 i left many years ago, when i decided to turn back to i386 Sep 19 06:37:27 fremantle is the os though Sep 19 06:37:44 the fact is that GNU/linux is totally boxed Sep 19 06:37:57 Whoops, my bad.. Well in that case fremantle is the codename for Maemo 5. :> Sep 19 06:38:11 yes Sep 19 06:39:05 i use on my laptop GNU/linux gNewSense Deltah 2.3, kernel linux, version 2.6.24-32 Sep 19 06:39:30 and next one will we GNU/linux gNewSense 3 Sep 19 06:39:35 linux kernel version 2.6.24? o.O Sep 19 06:39:57 no, no, i am using 2.6.24-32 Sep 19 06:40:19 It's still based on 2.6 architecture. Sep 19 06:40:28 is that a problem? Sep 19 06:40:43 No, just old (at least to me). Sep 19 06:40:59 oh yeah, 3.x has been around for a while Sep 19 06:41:20 i don't know what is Flash, and how to support it, i got Vidalia control Panel and in bundle FireFox Sep 19 06:41:25 but 2.6 is recent enough to not be that odd to run I think Sep 19 06:41:35 hell, I've seen a few cases of 2.4 Sep 19 06:41:41 but that's rare Sep 19 06:41:59 as that kernel is... old Sep 19 06:42:29 when starts FireFox, it has installed the plug-in NO-SCRIPT, GNU GPL, which works fine on youtube and similar ones Sep 19 06:42:51 I only know from the 802.11 aspect, 2.6 kernel tree is ancient. Sep 19 06:43:25 does not matter ancient or new, it is important the support Sep 19 06:43:53 and sincerely don't like that GUI such as Ubuntu Sep 19 06:44:22 you can always use another desktop environment you know Sep 19 06:44:28 i love GUI's such CDE used on the old Sun Microsytems Sep 19 06:44:29 You can force CLI on ubuntu for instance. It's not like on ubuntu without GUI it'll die. Sep 19 06:45:44 for me it's just enough GNU/linux gNewSense 3, that is totally new Sep 19 06:45:51 There are other (to me more advanced) distros like arch, gentoo and slackware in which you can pretty much setup to forgo GUI completely (if you wish). Sep 19 06:46:18 those are non free software distributions Sep 19 06:46:37 huh? Sep 19 06:47:04 The distro itself is mixed, if you're talking about being strict GNU/GPL sense. Sep 19 06:47:34 meh Sep 19 06:47:36 n8 Sep 19 06:47:44 heck even maemo is pretty much non-free. There are many closed bits as well. Sep 19 06:48:01 I don't get this discussion... Sep 19 06:48:07 i support only free software distributions such as: GNU/linux Blag; GNU/linux Dragora; GNU/linux Dynebolic; GNU/linux gNewSense; GNU/linux Musix; GNU/linux Parabola; GNU/linux Trisquel; GNU/linux Ututo Sep 19 06:48:13 and I've never heard of gNewSense Sep 19 06:48:26 i am a supporter in FSF.ORG Sep 19 06:48:33 ...or any of these either Sep 19 06:48:59 ok I've heard of dragora but didn't know the details Sep 19 06:49:07 nothing @ other distros Sep 19 06:49:15 * DocScrutinizer05 couldn't bother less Sep 19 06:49:29 after all a distro is... a distro Sep 19 06:49:51 unless it's maemo with its friggin metapackage concept Sep 19 06:49:52 Some people can be very strict on the stuff distro packages. Sep 19 06:50:28 DocScrutinizer05: :D @ maemo Sep 19 06:50:35 * DocScrutinizer05 goes to blacklist all distros that ship poettering stuff ;-P Sep 19 06:50:43 a) https://gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html and b) https://gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html Sep 19 06:50:59 never really bothered to understand how it worked or what it was @ metapackage whatever Sep 19 06:51:10 probably I wont try to either as it seems hated Sep 19 06:51:25 natsukao: do you pray to RMS every morning? Sep 19 06:51:34 lol Sep 19 06:51:42 i am not telling you to download, but to read Sep 19 06:51:54 no Sep 19 06:52:00 thanks, I heard about that stuff before Sep 19 06:52:02 I can only imagine metapackages are just packages in which one installs and it installs a whole bunch of other dependencies. Like ubuntu's apt-get install build-essential which installs, gcc, make, etc. Sep 19 06:52:25 well then maemo isn't really alone, is it? :P Sep 19 06:52:28 psycho_oreos: exactly Sep 19 06:52:35 now you understood maemo Sep 19 06:52:37 if ubuntu also uses something similar to maemo-fremantle-*-pr Sep 19 06:52:42 Yeah I've heard of it, debian also tinkered with GNU/Hurd (as in the kernel itself as well). Though its progress is slow. Sep 19 06:52:49 maemo is ONE huge metapackage Sep 19 06:53:03 but like me what i am doing, i started 12 years ago, asking infos about Free Software Sep 19 06:53:08 DocScrutinizer05, hehe I sorta understood about it sometime ago :D Sep 19 06:53:25 now i write about Free Software and hackers ethic Sep 19 06:53:46 hah, writing about my ethics Sep 19 06:53:48 natsukao: seems you're a big follow of rms ideals Sep 19 06:53:59 *sounds like Sep 19 06:54:11 yes, sure Sep 19 06:54:24 and i find well so Sep 19 06:54:45 RMS sometimes starts to smell a little dusty Sep 19 06:54:52 But then wouldn't owning 770 for instance be unethical as it contains non-FSF packages? Sep 19 06:55:04 [08:47:45] heck even maemo is pretty much non-free. There are many closed bits as well. Sep 19 06:55:19 i known him 7 years ago, i was to dinner with him and his friend in Rome (Italy), located near Ara Pacis restaurant Sep 19 06:55:22 maemo is even worse than those commonly used non free dists Sep 19 06:55:31 Rather non-FSF approved packages/modules/etc. Sep 19 06:55:32 indeed Sep 19 06:55:36 as, to even work at all, maemo needs several closed source stuff Sep 19 06:56:32 while on common desktop distros, you at least have access to the source of everything essential for the os to run Sep 19 06:56:37 if it was for RMS, OpenMoko never hat rolled out a single device. It would've been impossible Sep 19 06:56:39 and (most) applications for it Sep 19 06:56:58 last time in 2010 i went with RMS, Dora Scilipoti, Juan Carlos Gentile, to Garbatella, Rome, Italy, where we take our dinner with other 15 people Sep 19 06:57:05 Courtesy of nokia and capitalism's ethics of course FIQ. Sep 19 06:57:32 and infact Nokia failed Sep 19 06:57:33 nokia is a shell of its' former self Sep 19 06:57:39 ah ah ah Sep 19 06:57:49 clearly a result of bundling closed stuff in maemo Sep 19 06:57:52 DocScrutinizer05, or linux kernel itself being so well advanced with contributors from many private sectors. Sep 19 06:58:01 corporations have not ethic Sep 19 06:58:11 and totally not a result of an idiot CEO Sep 19 06:58:39 i am not CEO of nobody Sep 19 06:58:51 I wasn't talking about you Sep 19 06:59:00 but about elop Sep 19 06:59:07 i am one between many, i have President, Principal Sep 19 06:59:14 and RMs and friends think they can *force* hw manufs to disclose intellectual property, via GPL tricks Sep 19 07:00:42 to the contrary i inform you that i was invited from one woman of the staff of FSF.ORG (Libby Reinish), to the latest 30^th GNU Anniversary Sep 19 07:02:16 i can't start at the moment, but i'll go in the future: http://ur1.ca/f6bi5 Sep 19 07:05:46 you have not yet understood that i agree with that ideas : developing software as was to the MIT and other Universities in the rest of the America, when was possible to save something, again, don't like me the new way to see Informatics, and people which i agree are few in the world, i am not young such you, i am 41 y.o. Sep 19 07:06:11 I can't talk honest with a guy who thinks embedded needs a dedicated flashrom and mc to load a few kB of initialization data into a peripheral chip, since he considers it a crime to store and move that data on the linux APE Sep 19 07:06:21 08:59:14 DocScrutinizer05 | and RMs and friends think they can *force* hw manufs to disclose Sep 19 07:06:23 | intellectual property, via GPL tricks Sep 19 07:06:25 wrong Sep 19 07:06:34 they think - and rightly so - that they can force them to release source IF they release binary Sep 19 07:06:41 but any manufacturer is free to not support Linux Sep 19 07:07:00 BWAHAHA Sep 19 07:07:03 although they actually are somewhat wrong on this, given how the Linux guys changed the license a bit Sep 19 07:07:22 there is general agreement that binary modules now ARE allowed if they don't use any EXPORT_GPL symbols Sep 19 07:07:27 i think that nokia was boxed, and a more free distribution could save it, now we got a pice of old hardware between the fingers Sep 19 07:07:30 so Stallman has no chance enforcing this any more Sep 19 07:07:53 he never had Sep 19 07:07:58 also, most hardware can - at least in theory - also supported without kernel modules. No chance then either. Sep 19 07:08:03 infact, RMS does not need to enforce on me, i agree totally Sep 19 07:08:05 Regarding kernel modules, he did. Sep 19 07:08:13 If you assume the linking restriction in the GPL is valid at all Sep 19 07:08:19 if not, GPL and LGPL are 100% equivalent Sep 19 07:08:41 LGPL for libraries, Sep 19 07:08:47 LGPL is lesser GPL Sep 19 07:08:56 it's basically a spinoff of the GPL that allows dynamic linking Sep 19 07:09:13 by essentially removing the linking restriction of the GPL if the linking is dynamic Sep 19 07:09:30 so if the linking restriction in the GPL is invalid to begin with Sep 19 07:09:33 then GPL == LGPL Sep 19 07:09:55 if only it were that easy to prove whether P = NP... Sep 19 07:09:59 I wanna see Stallman and FSF prove "linking" to a a hw manuf who offers a driver.ko Sep 19 07:10:11 DocScrutinizer05: that's the next fun part Sep 19 07:10:17 just supplying the .ko isn't linking Sep 19 07:10:22 you must be grateful to RMS, without GNU'S Not Unix Project, LTB, could not develop linux kernel Sep 19 07:10:26 but putting it on the same device and loading it at bootup is Sep 19 07:10:38 the chip vendor would have a problem therefore Sep 19 07:10:41 *no problem Sep 19 07:10:48 but the device manufacturer would Sep 19 07:10:58 although there are generally accepted loopholes for that too (thanks, nvidia0 Sep 19 07:11:03 e.g. doing the module link at boot time :) Sep 19 07:11:23 provide a set of .o files, and generate the .ko at boot... and it all becomes moot too Sep 19 07:11:25 the whole idea is BS Sep 19 07:11:28 well Sep 19 07:11:32 then tell that to Stallman, or a court Sep 19 07:11:39 I don't like the linking restriction in the GPL either Sep 19 07:11:41 but it is there Sep 19 07:11:56 and I would indeed like to be decided once and for all whether it is valid or not Sep 19 07:12:00 https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/lgpl-2.0.html Sep 19 07:12:03 too bad THIS hasn't gone to court ever before Sep 19 07:12:22 maybe one can shoot it down as a "surprising clause" Sep 19 07:12:24 there is not any restriction is GPL Sep 19 07:12:27 as a library is MADE for linking to it Sep 19 07:12:53 [09:09:56] if only it were that easy to prove whether P = NP... Sep 19 07:12:53 haha Sep 19 07:13:07 natsukao: there actually is Sep 19 07:13:18 if you ship a program TOGETHER with its libraries, you are creating a combined work Sep 19 07:13:29 What is Free Software? What is Free Software? Sep 19 07:13:30 if they're separate packages, no license can stop you ;) Sep 19 07:13:36 tbh I don't give a f*ck if it's legal or not, if RMS would indeed manage to force hw manufs to not provide drivers for linux anymore since they can't do that, I rather kick RMS' ass than blame any munuf Sep 19 07:13:42 manuf* Sep 19 07:13:43 [09:10:22] you must be grateful to RMS, without GNU'S Not Unix Project, LTB, could not develop linux kernel Sep 19 07:13:55 “Free software” https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech”, not as in “free beer”. Sep 19 07:14:10 in fact, he could just have used another variant of C not relying on GCC Sep 19 07:14:10 Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software: Sep 19 07:14:21 FSF afaik provided userland stuff.. Linus Torvalds was the one that wrote the kernel. Sep 19 07:14:33 The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0). Sep 19 07:14:35 The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. Sep 19 07:14:42 natsukao: please stop spreading truism Sep 19 07:14:43 Without userland, kernel would be useless.. without kernel userland is redundant. Same diff. Sep 19 07:14:51 The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). Sep 19 07:14:53 The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. Sep 19 07:15:11 are you ready? Sep 19 07:15:17 where is the restriction are speaking about ? Sep 19 07:16:07 you are free to use GPLv2, or if you want later yo can use GPLv3, nobody is forcing to use GPL Licenses Sep 19 07:16:09 natsukao: are you a missioner sent by rms to convert people into his religion? Sep 19 07:16:25 because your reasoning principe is very similar Sep 19 07:16:56 but anyone is free to choce the license he prefeers: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html Sep 19 07:17:00 and nobody here needs lessons about GPL and the philosophy behind it Sep 19 07:17:24 Besides, #maemo was never really about FSF :p Sep 19 07:17:41 indeed Sep 19 07:17:53 studies on licenses where done with RMS and Eben Moglen, Professor Law to the University and attorney in FSF.ORG Sep 19 07:18:05 If we're all FSF followers, we'd be cursed for using maemo products. Sep 19 07:18:27 natsukao: please stop spamming the channel with irrelevant statements and factoids Sep 19 07:18:38 we all know the internet and how to google Sep 19 07:18:40 I don't have anything against rms or his ideals, but the way he (at least used to) force it into people isn't likable Sep 19 07:18:55 and now you're doing that Sep 19 07:19:02 exactly Sep 19 07:19:06 annoying Sep 19 07:19:33 so before to speak about licenses, think that attorneys, worked for the respect of software, developed from a community, so that a corporation can't modify and use for itself, as did Cisc Systems, when finished in Court for violations of GPL Sep 19 07:19:41 &/opm Sep 19 07:22:33 take it to #fsf, preach to the choir there please, not here Sep 19 07:25:42 thinking about that project to actually place a small microcontroller and a muxer and a SPI flashrom on GTA04, to make RMS happy regarding WLAN module firmware upload during boot which been considered violating dunnowhat, I could still start headdesking Sep 19 07:26:14 lol Sep 19 07:33:01 * DocScrutinizer05 gonna publish recipe for tea cookies, under TCL (tea cookie licence), and gonna sue everybody who dares to eat such cookies while drinking coffee instead of tea Sep 19 07:38:02 DocScrutinizer05: lol Sep 19 07:40:52 if Nokia had used kernel driver module blobs to make maemo work on their devices, we were waaaaay better off now, since RE of a kernel module is way easier than RE of crappy .so Sep 19 07:43:24 but thanks to Stallman who thinks he can force manufacturers to disclose their intellectual property that often is their only warranty for keeping their business model intact, we now have blobs all over the place and nobody any happier than a few years ago Sep 19 07:46:48 and even worse: we (the hackers) have to use that hugest virus ever (from Redmond) now, to RE many hardware drivers that are no longer supported at all under linux Sep 19 07:46:57 and THATS a real PITA Sep 19 07:49:00 I *maybe* would RE a driver for some hw I need to use, when it had a linux driver blob. I definitely won't install that wincrap on my machines to RE the windriver for that HW Sep 19 07:49:53 not even when using cygwin ;-P Sep 19 07:51:47 on a sidenote: Harald Welte is a friend of mine, I don't need lessons about what GPL does good for FOSS Sep 19 07:52:27 yes, that IS true Sep 19 07:52:39 there is a reason why many people prefer BSD licenses... the GPL just is going too far in some ways Sep 19 07:52:56 which is the very reason why Linus did this license change (the EXPORT_GPL story) Sep 19 07:53:24 yep, exactly this story Sep 19 07:53:39 gnu brainfart Sep 19 07:57:10 and I can't say whether EXPORT_GPL would stand in court Sep 19 07:57:15 but it's a clear declaration of intention Sep 19 07:57:31 I actually would WANT the linking restriction of the GPL to fall Sep 19 07:57:39 if you WANT to be that protective, it doesn't really help either Sep 19 07:57:42 see how Nokia worked around GPL Sep 19 07:57:55 yep Sep 19 07:57:55 you need AGPL to effectively impose such restrictions Sep 19 07:57:57 exactly Sep 19 07:58:35 too bad we never had any cases regarding GPL linking in courts Sep 19 07:58:54 they were all about supplying the source for "unmodified" parts, or clearly combiend works Sep 19 07:58:59 e.g. opaque router firmware blobs Sep 19 07:59:10 incl netfilters Sep 19 07:59:15 yes Sep 19 07:59:20 the question is Sep 19 07:59:26 a party who was sued for netfilter use... Sep 19 07:59:31 what if they had compiled it as module only Sep 19 07:59:37 and then released source of the modules only? Sep 19 07:59:42 THEN the linkage case could happen :P Sep 19 08:00:02 but no sane company would do that Sep 19 08:00:08 that clause is grey area from both sides Sep 19 08:00:27 it all stands on falls with whether a program linking to a lib becomes a combined work with the lib even if the linkage is dynamic Sep 19 08:00:39 it's 100% nonsensical and basically useless to achieve what it planned to achieve Sep 19 08:00:44 some even believe that linking via ld-linux.so is "illegal" but dlopen is "legal" Sep 19 08:00:51 even though it's the same mechanism, just another time Sep 19 08:01:19 IMHO, if you go by the letter of the GPL, dlopen is just as illegal... Sep 19 08:01:20 sophism Sep 19 08:01:31 but the whole clause may just as well collapse when actually tried in court Sep 19 08:01:31 or simple stupidity Sep 19 08:01:51 simply by the judge saying "This isn't a combined work, and it's up to copyright, not a license, to define what a combined work is and what not"\ Sep 19 08:02:20 like, what if I made two licenses... Sep 19 08:02:37 one says "A can use B and the whole becomes a combined work" Sep 19 08:02:39 and other says Sep 19 08:02:46 "When A uses B, these two remain separate works" Sep 19 08:03:10 the GPL is attempting to say the former Sep 19 08:03:33 but everyone knows how grey this is, which is why it was never tried in court. Nobody wants to pay that risk. Sep 19 08:03:47 honestly, this is nonsense. It targets at forbidding non-FOSS software on linux Sep 19 08:04:03 I'd shpoot everybody successfully implementing such policy Sep 19 08:04:04 yes Sep 19 08:04:04 e.g. what if the glibc were GPL? Sep 19 08:04:18 :nod: Sep 19 08:04:34 personally I adhere strictly to GPL in my projects where I can't avoid it... but don't like it Sep 19 08:04:52 actually, if glibc were GPL, it probably would get watered down that this doesn't apply to POSIX interfaces in the library :) Sep 19 08:05:14 just like a GPL program can link to libGL.so just fine Sep 19 08:05:20 EVEN if on the end user's system the libGL is nvidia's Sep 19 08:05:53 that's generally accepted on the grounds that the libGL interface is a standard interface with multiple independent implementations Sep 19 08:06:06 but - SO IS THE LINUX KERNEL SYSCALL INTERFACE :) Sep 19 08:06:15 I'm absolutely OK with "normal" GPL. When I use GPL source and modify it, it must return to FOSS. But I will do the heck and let myself get forced to open up ACME-app just because it links to glibc (or any other lib) Sep 19 08:06:22 e.g. FreeBSD and Solaris implement Linux syscalls Sep 19 08:06:38 sure, you then instead won't release it at all Sep 19 08:06:55 BTW, what is EVEN MORE annoying and what hit Xonotic once... Sep 19 08:07:00 was libgmp changing from LGPL2 to LGPL3 Sep 19 08:07:05 while the engine Xonotic uses is under GPL2 Sep 19 08:07:15 we were SO lucky Carmack hadn't deleted the "or any later version" back then Sep 19 08:07:18 as GPL2 can't link to LGPL3 Sep 19 08:07:21 that is just insane Sep 19 08:07:26 EVERYTHING can link to LGPL3, except for GPL2 Sep 19 08:08:13 so we now have the funny situation that Xonotic binary builds are necessarily GPL3, except on OS X where they still are GPL2 as they there can use the OS-provided OpenSSL library for the same features Sep 19 08:08:34 (yes, OpenSSL has GPL-incompatible license, but if it comes with the OS, that's ok, says even the GPL) Sep 19 08:08:54 the main reason why I did this though was that it's hell to compile libgmp on OS X Sep 19 08:09:21 we now are ready to go away from libgmp any time though... as libtomsfastmath (WTFPL, IIRC) is also supportedf Sep 19 08:09:46 and why would we want to ditch gmp? because the FSF screwed up Sep 19 08:09:54 making two of their own licenses needlessly incompatible Sep 19 08:09:56 I got better things to do in my active time than to deal with this nonsensical GPL stuff, just to give RMS an orgasm Sep 19 08:10:12 [09:46:48] and even worse: we (the hackers) have to use that hugest virus ever (from Redmond) now, to RE many hardware drivers that are no longer supported at all under linux - hm? Sep 19 08:10:17 they're not even following the GPL on their own Sep 19 08:10:20 so why should we :) Sep 19 08:10:34 I mean... fsf.org offers files (or was it gnu.org) Sep 19 08:10:37 that are under the GPL Sep 19 08:10:42 but without providing any source Sep 19 08:11:10 I called them out on it via email, and all they told me was "no idea, the original author didn't give us source" Sep 19 08:11:20 FIQ: guess how many companies stopped linux support all together, instead of disclosing their driver code as Stallman hoped to force them to do Sep 19 08:11:38 http://www.gnu.org/music/free-software-song.html Sep 19 08:11:41 A version by the band Zweitgolf: free_software_song_sunnata.ogg, released under the GPL Sep 19 08:11:44 No source, no excuse :P Sep 19 08:12:22 not even a wav file... Sep 19 08:12:32 and THEY want to be taken serious Sep 19 08:12:53 I'm sure Zweitgolf would have given them a "source file" if they had asked. Sep 19 08:13:12 DocScrutinizer05: right... and it's not even just about company secrets Sep 19 08:13:28 we can agree that "company secrets" of this kind are bad and SHOULD be stamped out, BUT... Sep 19 08:13:35 the fault often isn't even with the company making the device Sep 19 08:13:46 but with some company three layers down the line which made a chip on the card Sep 19 08:14:04 sure Sep 19 08:14:06 to release sources of the whole device, THAT company would have to be asked to release source... and they would Sep 19 08:14:08 for a price Sep 19 08:14:19 this easily would double or triple all hardware prices now Sep 19 08:14:50 OTOH I don't get why a driver for hardware HAS to contain any "secrets" Sep 19 08:14:52 [10:11:21] FIQ: guess how many companies stopped linux support all together, instead of disclosing their driver code as Stallman hoped to force them to do Sep 19 08:15:06 yay for backfiring results Sep 19 08:15:08 the firmware for the hardware, sure Sep 19 08:15:19 and evem more silly: all those firmware sources are *absolutely* worthless junk without comprehensive hw docs Sep 19 08:15:19 FIQ: backfiring? It's not like Stallman endorses Linux anyway. Sep 19 08:15:26 Hurd is soon gonna be ready... Sep 19 08:15:28 with 2 drivers. Sep 19 08:15:29 haha Sep 19 08:15:42 DocScrutinizer05: yes Sep 19 08:15:49 what we REALLY need for firmware blobs is NOT sources Sep 19 08:15:54 the GPL doesn't even demand that Sep 19 08:15:59 we just need to be able to distribute them legally Sep 19 08:16:17 divVerent: oh yeah and I'm sure a lot of people will use it Sep 19 08:16:20 especially how the FW upload system on Linux works, the firmware and the driver are very independent Sep 19 08:16:25 FIQ: absolutely Sep 19 08:16:31 I will put Hurd on my Nexus 4 when it comes out Sep 19 08:16:36 (distribute) absolutely Sep 19 08:17:28 also, I don't get Stallman there Sep 19 08:17:50 why are firmware blobs that are uploaded to RAM "evil" Sep 19 08:17:55 and firmware blobs that are burnt on EPROM "good"? Sep 19 08:17:58 N*F*C Sep 19 08:18:10 it''s idiotic Sep 19 08:18:13 or even PROM :) Sep 19 08:18:27 it's a fact, any hardware contains "secrets" even if it uses no uploadable firmware blobs Sep 19 08:19:04 I can see why he wants people to prefer Linux distros containing only free applications and drivers... Sep 19 08:19:09 but I see nothing wrong with firmware blobs Sep 19 08:19:27 if there is anything, then tell me ONE e.g. sound card with free firmware Sep 19 08:20:00 RMS even speculates and assumes a damn lot when he claims that "firmware2 is any software at all, and he's even more insane when he thinks we could get a source for that which is telling us anything. Maybe the the whole shite been developed in assembler, eh? Sep 19 08:20:08 probably the SB16? Yes, you can't flash it, you don't upload a FW file. But what about the DSP itself? The SB16 has ROM chips on them, where is THEIR source? Sep 19 08:20:10 or even in hex Sep 19 08:20:22 well, firmware "tends to be software" Sep 19 08:20:26 but yes, can have been developed in hex :P Sep 19 08:20:40 I wonder if he's ever seen a FPGA though :) Sep 19 08:20:59 prolly no idea what's a FPGA Sep 19 08:21:06 i guess hed want the verilog for any fpgas :) Sep 19 08:21:17 or whatever language they used Sep 19 08:21:23 especially for these, it's hard to say if what you "burn" there is settings, or software Sep 19 08:21:37 jaska: IF they used it :P Sep 19 08:21:40 jaska: sure, and the source for the compiler as well Sep 19 08:21:48 GPL says "preferred form for making modifications to it" Sep 19 08:22:00 Here's a troll method to generate source: Sep 19 08:22:03 ship the empty file Sep 19 08:22:11 GPL explicity says you don't have to give away the compiler Sep 19 08:22:21 so your "compiler" is a program ignoring its input outputting the file Sep 19 08:22:35 yeah, the cmdline defines prank Sep 19 08:22:40 hehe, or that Sep 19 08:22:42 write everything in turing tarpit languages? Sep 19 08:22:51 jaska: you mean verilog? :) Sep 19 08:23:07 cat hugeprog.c -> x Sep 19 08:23:33 BTW, recently read about a funny turing tarpit :P Sep 19 08:23:47 even without self modifying code, x86 mov + jmp is turing complete Sep 19 08:24:20 use one range for values, another for addresses, but do have RAM in the "values area"... Sep 19 08:25:02 then mov bx, [A]; mov [bx], 0; mov bx, [B]; mov [bx], 1; mov bx, [A]; mov ax, [bx] Sep 19 08:25:10 isnt the code in this case combination of mov and the data? Sep 19 08:25:12 would put 0 in ax if A != B, 1 if A == B Sep 19 08:25:18 yes Sep 19 08:25:25 but the data can be initialized Sep 19 08:25:27 see this example :P Sep 19 08:25:34 you can set up your data with lots of initial movs Sep 19 08:25:54 basically, they wrote an universal turing machine with just mov and jmp Sep 19 08:26:10 one final jmp at the end back to the start, as the only looping construct there is Sep 19 08:26:39 but my favorite esoteric turing-complete language is the single instruction machine Sep 19 08:26:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer Sep 19 08:27:03 i wonder how efficient an oisc hardware would be Sep 19 08:27:57 it's kinda bad to L1 cache :) Sep 19 08:28:10 your l1 cache is your register file Sep 19 08:35:17 20:35:59 < HRH_H_Crab> i worry that idimmu has got a potty next to him. Sep 19 08:35:18 20:36:14 < HRH_H_Crab> and a growing pile of pizza boxes and drinks packaging Sep 19 08:35:18 20:37:06 < jesterina> let's not kid ourselves, he's cut a hole in the sofa and put the potty under it Sep 19 08:35:43 oops Sep 19 09:00:52 GeneralAntilles: (MWKN twitter) FPTF gaining unexpected momentum, thanks to extraordinarily dedicated and inspired work of jonwil, Pali, freemangordon, nicolai: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1375221 Sep 19 09:16:12 hah!!! Sep 19 09:16:17 haaaaaaaaaaaa!! Sep 19 09:16:24 got it :) Sep 19 09:16:32 i think i just got lucky tho lol Sep 19 09:19:42 hope i can replicate it later Sep 19 09:19:51 but so far so good Sep 19 09:23:34 hm Sep 19 09:52:23 hmm? Sep 19 09:58:47 hi Sep 19 09:58:55 DocScrutinizer05: i'm using pan nw Sep 19 09:58:59 now Sep 19 09:59:01 seems to work Sep 19 09:59:23 won't work withthe ms stire Sep 19 09:59:31 but that isn't a deal breaker and probably isn't related Sep 19 10:02:10 for whatever reason i did have to install pc connectivity Sep 19 10:02:17 no idea why Sep 19 10:02:22 but it adds bnep0 to interfaces Sep 19 10:02:46 then i was able t see the an device in windws rt in the surface Sep 19 10:02:54 pan Sep 19 10:16:33 jaa Sep 19 10:18:19 nee Sep 19 12:21:20 DocScrutinizer05: :-P Sep 19 12:24:51 bah, this Gentoo emerge is going to take forever (assuming my Gentoo box doesn't crap out in the mean time) Sep 19 12:36:09 well... later on i will see if i can get the pan working again Sep 19 12:36:20 was so happy when it worked Sep 19 12:36:32 i should try to get it to work with the android tablet Sep 19 12:54:36 run emerge on the tablet Sep 19 15:42:03 DocScrutinizer05: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6412313 Sep 19 15:42:51 (that's the best headline I could do in 80-chars limit :P) Sep 19 15:45:46 och, looks like it's not available yet to outside world Sep 19 16:55:37 Hi guys .. i hace microsoft bluetooth keyboard 5000, it works perfectly with btinput in nokia n9, however it does not work in (extkbd) n900, During the pairing the number Keys works perfectly fine but after that only the character keys are functional, y and z are interchanged..i have tried almost all the layouts, all seems to have the same result...and same set of keys are not functional.. Sep 19 16:55:37 is ithe issue with extkbd? Or is there any specific layout i can try for this Sep 19 17:16:11 jean_brat: qzerty is a sign of a weird layout Sep 19 17:23:28 kerio, i am trying all the layout there is no difference in any.. all they keyboard gives me the same result Sep 19 17:24:38 non-qwerty: the sign of a country having NIH layout syndrome Sep 19 17:25:20 f4 pulls of the save and exit menu in the note pad f7 and f8 pulls the volume up and down Sep 19 17:25:32 that's kind of intended Sep 19 17:25:36 the volume keys *are* f7 and f8 Sep 19 17:26:15 none of the number keys .. including ~ and [ ] ; ? > < n works Sep 19 17:26:53 in any layout.. i tried random configurations Sep 19 17:28:08 NIH layout ? i din get you Sep 19 17:29:35 strangly.. how come all the keyboard layout is giving me the same result? Sep 19 17:30:11 was hoping .. atleast the thinkpad layout in the list should work Sep 19 17:37:46 hey.. strangely.. if i hold the keys for little longer its behaving exact same as N900's querty keypad. like if i hold A for 2 seconds it becomes * Sep 19 17:39:30 BTW... I noticed... Sep 19 17:39:41 I asked a few days ago whether on ecan map volume to the builtin keyboard Sep 19 17:39:46 so I tried mapping keys to f7/f8 Sep 19 17:39:54 this didn't work though... or rather Sep 19 17:39:59 it works for font size in terminal Sep 19 17:40:02 so I thought I was happy :P Sep 19 17:40:07 but it does not work for volume Sep 19 17:40:43 but that's interesting, if for you on a BT keyboard F7 DOES change volume Sep 19 17:41:47 yes.. but none of my first row keys (~!@#$% 1234 ) and all the special characters are not working Sep 19 17:42:26 how do u map the keys? Sep 19 17:45:16 some one please give me some hint.. i don know where to look Sep 19 17:58:03 some how ths extkbd is not overriding the default n900 keypad layout,, so all the character keys behaves the same way.. Sep 19 17:58:37 however how few the functions keys are working is still a mystery Sep 19 20:00:31 ~boot-process Sep 19 20:00:51 ~bootprocess Sep 19 20:01:01 mmm there was apost somewhere.... Sep 19 20:02:07 ~listkeys boot Sep 19 20:02:09 Factoid search of 'boot' by key (16 of 170): /boot/params ;; @reboot ;; barboot ;; boot animation ;; bootblaster ;; bootldr changelog ;; bootldr howto ;; bootloader you use ;; bootsplash ;; booty rap ;; etherboot ;; gui yaboot ;; i recently learned that "load usercode" in bootldr ;; leo-bootkit ;; ofboot ;; pornoboots. Sep 19 20:02:41 ~pornoboots Sep 19 20:02:42 methinks pornoboots is http://lugwv.be/Members/vipe/pornoboots Sep 19 20:03:16 o.O Sep 19 20:03:26 wat Sep 19 20:04:29 ah... Sep 19 20:04:44 infobot: boot-process is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=87959 Sep 19 20:04:45 okay, sixwheeledbeast Sep 19 20:05:01 ~booty rap Sep 19 20:05:01 * infobot dances Sep 19 20:07:10 are you the new infobot snacker, do Sep 19 20:07:13 dos1 Sep 19 20:08:41 ~botsnack Sep 19 20:08:41 :), dos1 Sep 19 20:08:41 can't have it idling ;) Sep 19 20:34:04 ~seen DocScrutinizer05 Sep 19 20:34:05 ~seen DocScrutinizer51 Sep 19 20:34:10 docscrutinizer05 is currently on #maemo #n9 #harmattan #meego #openmoko #maemo-ssu #infobot #openmoko-cdevel. Has said a total of 2696 messages. Is idling for 8h 52m 59s, last said: 'been like 19ct/min back when'. Sep 19 20:34:11 docscrutinizer51 is currently on #maemo #harmattan #maemo-ssu #openmoko-cdevel. Has said a total of 22 messages. Is idling for 4d 4h 27m 46s, last said: 'where?'. Sep 19 20:40:57 http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/09/19/1834224/nokias-elop-set-to-receive-25-million-bonus-after-acquisition Sep 19 20:46:09 trojan horse Sep 19 20:47:56 I have a problem with the amount Sep 19 20:48:03 WHY IS IT NOT $30mil??? Sep 19 20:48:25 why should it be 30? Sep 19 20:49:12 30 pieces of silver? Sep 19 20:49:21 yep Sep 19 20:49:39 seems legit Sep 19 20:50:08 well, let's hope Elop becomes new MS CEO Sep 19 20:50:38 Macromedia... Nokia... now it's time for Microsoft :) Sep 19 20:50:58 Yes, I am awaiting that Sep 19 20:51:16 It is time for Microsoft to jump into the water Sep 19 21:21:22 moo Sep 19 21:22:53 moo? Sep 19 21:23:09 ~moo Sep 19 21:23:10 mooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I'm a cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass. I'm a cow, you are too; join us all! type apt-get moo. Sep 19 21:23:49 https://soundcloud.com/dos1/moo Sep 19 21:24:54 leave infobot alone Sep 19 21:40:35 DocScrutinizer05: I've had one issue with N900. Actually, it was rather issue of PSU of my laptop, Sep 19 21:41:19 I've had broken audio jack in laptop, so I wanted to workaround it by connecting N900 to amplifier and streaming music to it Sep 19 21:41:59 over wifi there were some hickups, so I connected it via usb Sep 19 21:42:12 and everything was nice, until laptop was connected to the charger Sep 19 21:42:17 uh oh Sep 19 21:42:23 then there was TEH BUZZ Sep 19 21:42:29 D: Sep 19 21:42:35 did it set on fire Sep 19 21:43:56 it was the same with audio jack on laptop (when hold correctly, otherwise no audio at all :P), so it was polluting everything with some interferences Sep 19 21:44:11 so, out of curiosity, as I don't have this laptop anymore Sep 19 21:44:46 would there be some way to prevent the buzz from spreading via usb cable to audio jack of N900? Sep 19 21:44:53 or maybe Neo900? :D Sep 19 21:45:06 your issue is kind of unique Sep 19 21:45:13 someone tells me that laptop was dangerous Sep 19 21:45:20 something* Sep 19 21:45:55 RiD: nothing bad happened in about 2 years after that Sep 19 21:46:02 still Sep 19 21:46:53 i remember i got scared once, the n900 thought my earphones (with mic) were TV-out, the sound was all weird Sep 19 21:47:03 it was just quiet buzz in audio, like with electric guitars near power cables Sep 19 21:47:22 quiet, but very annoying Sep 19 21:47:36 like some crappy phones have static noise Sep 19 21:47:54 i think even samsung s2 had that Sep 19 21:50:17 I'm just wondering if there's some easy way to shield it so such noise from usb cable wouldn't interfere with audio Sep 19 21:51:34 maybe even not on customer level, but on device manufacturer level too Sep 19 21:54:31 dos1: use a usb soundcard! Sep 19 21:55:48 kerio: I wonder if it wouldn't suffer from exactly the same problem :P Sep 19 21:55:53 this is a very well known issue, frequently found with tuners connected to roof-located aerials Sep 19 21:56:09 it would Sep 19 21:56:12 hey, anyone experienced with amazon purchases... how is the whole warranty thing there? Sep 19 21:56:19 you need to open up the GND loop Sep 19 21:56:30 What if my stuff still works - but already a little unreliable (talking about headphone audio cable) Sep 19 21:56:41 you frequently use galvanic isolation to do this Sep 19 21:57:06 like: audio-transformer(s) Sep 19 21:57:14 opto-couplers Sep 19 21:58:00 whatever works for you. And _do_ _NOT_ connect GND/shielding from one side of galvanic "gap" to the other side Sep 19 21:58:36 "DI-box" comes to mind Sep 19 22:02:33 well, actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DI_unit is not *exactly* what you need, though most of them work as "galvanic gap" as well Sep 19 22:04:14 sorry for de_DE: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdschleife Sep 19 22:04:52 http://www.google.de/search?q=ground+loop+isolator Sep 19 22:05:27 DocScrutinizer05: thanks! Sep 19 22:06:32 http://www.bcae1.com/glisoltr.htm Sep 19 22:11:40 nice stuff to know Sep 19 22:14:34 once again thanks, one mystery of this world resolved :D Sep 19 22:15:52 +1 IQ point Sep 19 22:16:08 yeah :) Sep 19 22:17:34 alas proper ground loop isolation is bulky and "expensive", otherwise I had included it to Neo900 AV-out Sep 19 22:24:05 Yep, Doc spot on as usual, ground loop hum. It's annoying. Maybe external ground loop isolation on the av-out as a workaround. Sep 19 22:52:07 sometimes turning one mains-plug by 180° helps a bit Sep 19 22:52:41 also connect all mains-powered devices to same multi-outlet Sep 19 22:54:18 but often only ground loop isolators for audio line-cables and/or antennae help Sep 19 22:56:11 in professional environments (stage, stadium...) you use differential line to completely avoid this problem Sep 19 22:56:19 see DI-unit Sep 19 22:56:35 DI==differential-input Sep 19 22:56:57 on mic you see XLR for that Sep 19 22:57:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLR_connector Sep 19 22:58:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio Sep 19 22:59:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balun Sep 19 23:00:52 particularly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balun#Audio Sep 19 23:04:05 for obvious reasons XLR can't be used on Neo900 ;-) Sep 19 23:04:27 thus no balanced audio on embedded Sep 19 23:05:12 high class audio equipment uses RCA with balanced in/out Sep 19 23:05:19 aka cinch Sep 19 23:05:53 those devices don't have galvanic connection between case and cinch shielding Sep 19 23:06:44 alas this also can't get done in embedded for AV-out, for various technical reasons Sep 20 00:15:09 GeneralAntilles: (MWKN twitter) "Jolla finally seems to disclose details about "TOH" thechnical specs - says 'I2C'" http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1375451#post1375451 Sep 20 00:16:52 GeneralAntilles: (MWKN twitter) "Joerg R. notes: ``I2C usual bandwidth is 400k''" Sep 20 00:19:11 anyway probably the best you can do for such an expansion bus - USB is nice for *some* usecases but reallly horrible regarding some other aspects, like power consumption and handler overhead Sep 20 00:19:16 pali: ping Sep 20 00:20:26 as a ballparc figure, the OMAP3 musb-core (hardware controller for the USB interface) seems to eat 60mA for mere standby Sep 20 00:22:55 Hi, what do you think about creating some package, let's say "no-modest" and adding it as another dependency with OR argument to the mp-fremantle-community-pr? Sep 20 00:27:56 have to leave now, the thread is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91412 Sep 20 00:38:28 won't fly aiui Sep 20 01:27:05 now the real question Sep 20 01:27:14 does the pan keep its settings Sep 20 01:27:20 when i disconnect/reconnect Sep 20 01:27:21 heh Sep 20 01:27:26 if it does that would be awesome Sep 20 01:27:43 i need to find a way to adjust it for the wifi coming on too Sep 20 01:28:01 i sure wish this stuff was built into mobilehotspot Sep 20 01:28:09 would make life way easier heh Sep 20 01:28:44 Maybe you could notify the maintainer and tell him how you did it. Sep 20 01:34:19 Even better, embed the function yourself and submit the patch. Sep 20 02:13:36 ~seen nicolai Sep 20 02:13:39 i haven't seen 'nicolai', jonwil Sep 20 02:28:56 ~seen _nicolai_ Sep 20 02:28:58 _nicolai_ <~nicolai@pop8-126.catv.wtnet.de> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo-ssu, 7h 28m 23s ago, saying: 'hi'. Sep 20 02:29:32 jonwil, ^ **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Sep 20 03:00:00 2013